From extest-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 1 05:27:30 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id FAA22202 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 05:27:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7EA144488 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 05:08:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: lists.bell-labs.com mailing list memberships reminder From: mailman-owner@lists.bell-labs.com To: sip-archive@ietf.org X-No-Archive: yes X-Ack: no Sender: extest-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: extest-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: extest@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk Message-Id: <20010501090806.A7EA144488@lists.bell-labs.com> Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 05:08:06 -0400 (EDT) This is a reminder, sent out once a month, about your lists.bell-labs.com mailing list memberships. It includes your subscription info and how to use it to change it or unsubscribe from a list. You can visit the URLs to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. In addition to the URL interfaces, you can also use email to make such changes. For more info, send a message to the '-request' address of the list (for example, sip-request@lists.bell-labs.com) containing just the word 'help' in the message body, and an email message will be sent to you with instructions. If you have questions, problems, comments, etc, send them to mailman-owner@lists.bell-labs.com. Thanks! Passwords for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org: List Password // URL ---- -------- sip@lists.bell-labs.com TDGd http://lists.bell-labs.com/mailman/options/sip/sip-archive%40lists.ietf.org From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 1 10:15:06 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA28025 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 10:15:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AED2D44337; Tue, 1 May 2001 10:15:03 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from atl_tpl_exc_01.z-tel.com (postoffice.z-tel.com [208.205.113.4]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BFA644336 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 10:14:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by atl_tpl_exc_01.ztel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 1 May 2001 10:14:20 -0400 Message-ID: <2C6215F38016D511B85800805FBB337A10EA90@z-tel.com> From: "Wong, Tim" To: "'Roland'" , sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] where can find document for sip conference or multicast MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="hz-gb-2312" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 10:14:11 -0400 Here is the link to rosenberg's conferencing draft. http://search.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rosenberg-sip-conferencing-mode ls-00.txt Tim. -----Original Message----- From: Roland [mailto:zyq@netrue.com] Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 1:20 PM To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: [SIP] where can find document for sip conference or multicast Hello everyone, Can anybody tell me where I can get some specifications for sip conference or multicast? the 2543 never mentions the detail for this function. Thanks a lot ROland _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 1 13:43:09 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA05353 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 13:43:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5252B44337; Tue, 1 May 2001 13:43:03 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from cs.columbia.edu (cs.columbia.edu [128.59.16.20]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACB0044336 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 13:42:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bart.cs.columbia.edu (bart.cs.columbia.edu [128.59.19.191]) by cs.columbia.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA17760 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 13:42:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cs.columbia.edu (bart.cs.columbia.edu [128.59.19.191]) by bart.cs.columbia.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA01124 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 13:42:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3AEF2098.F77B4012@cs.columbia.edu> From: Henning Schulzrinne Organization: Columbia University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [SIP] Product naming (was: SIP voicemail server) Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 13:46:16 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit May I suggest that - "is there a SIP implementation that does foo?" belongs on the sip-implementors list or, better yet, on the SIP Forum mailing lists. - secondly, that vendors do not answer the questions in public, as tempting as this may be. There are a number of SIP implementation web pages out there (I happen to maintain one of them, as does the SIP Forum and other vendor-neutral organizations) which will gladly add a pointer to your implementation, free of charge. Thank you. (No, I'm not the moderator, but with the number of SIP products out there, I hope there's agreement we don't want to turn this list into a marketing event, I would hope. The problem is that once one vendor "announces" their product, every other vendor's marketing group feels obligated to do the same.) Henning _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 1 16:00:06 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA09027 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 16:00:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4704144337; Tue, 1 May 2001 16:00:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from kevlar.softarmor.com (dwillis1.directlink.net [63.64.250.82]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75CC744336 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 15:59:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cowboys (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by kevlar.softarmor.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with SMTP id f41F7lN06684; Tue, 1 May 2001 11:07:47 -0400 Message-ID: <008101c0d279$331c6ab0$ad036e3f@dynamicsoft.com> From: "Dean Willis" To: "Henning Schulzrinne" , References: <3AEF2098.F77B4012@cs.columbia.edu> Subject: Re: [SIP] Product naming (was: SIP voicemail server) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 14:59:15 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you, Henning. I would like to reinforce this request. Distribution of commercial product information is considered in rather poor taste by the IETF (we try to be non-product and vendor independent, remember?). Notice that I don't even use my employer's email addressing when working here, because we have product in this sector. Your efforts in helping to maintain purity here will be appreciated. Thanks! -- Dean ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henning Schulzrinne" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 3:46 PM Subject: [SIP] Product naming (was: SIP voicemail server) > May I suggest that > > - "is there a SIP implementation that does foo?" belongs on the > sip-implementors list or, better yet, on the SIP Forum mailing lists. > > - secondly, that vendors do not answer the questions in public, as > tempting as this may be. There are a number of SIP implementation web > pages out there (I happen to maintain one of them, as does the SIP Forum > and other vendor-neutral organizations) which will gladly add a pointer > to your implementation, free of charge. > > Thank you. > > (No, I'm not the moderator, but with the number of SIP products out > there, I hope there's agreement we don't want to turn this list into a > marketing event, I would hope. The problem is that once one vendor > "announces" their product, every other vendor's marketing group feels > obligated to do the same.) > > Henning > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 1 17:16:04 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id RAA10441 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 17:16:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D13E044337; Tue, 1 May 2001 17:16:03 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from df-inet1.exchange.microsoft.com (df-inet1.exchange.microsoft.com [131.107.8.8]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFCDD44336 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 17:15:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from df-virus2.platinum.corp.microsoft.com ([172.30.236.33]) by df-inet1.exchange.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2905); Tue, 1 May 2001 14:16:25 -0700 Received: from 172.30.236.11 by df-virus2.platinum.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Tue, 01 May 2001 14:15:35 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Received: from speak.platinum.corp.microsoft.com ([172.30.236.197]) by yuri.dns.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2905); Tue, 1 May 2001 14:12:19 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.4698.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP Thread-Index: AcDPW3RUIWUQC4peS2KhXsVoum6ngADJuQUA From: "Christian Huitema" To: "Jonathan Rosenberg" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 May 2001 21:12:19.0483 (UTC) FILETIME=[68106EB0:01C0D283] Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 14:10:44 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ietf.org id RAA10441 Jonathan, The point were this is likely to be tested is firewall traversal. For security reasons, we are tempted to open a pinhole that specifies a "five tuple" -- source and destination IP address and port, protocol type. This requires being able to predict the source address used by the other end. According to your rule, we would not be able to do that. This seems reason enough to reconsider. By the way, the technical argument that you give is weak. It is possible to bind a socket to an address, which makes address selection possible even on multi-homed machines. -- Christian Huitema > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonathan Rosenberg [mailto:jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com] > Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 1:46 PM > To: 'sip@lists.bell-labs.com' > Subject: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP > > Folks, > > There appears to be some continuing confusion about the interpretation of > the IP address in the SDP of an INVITE or 200 OK. > > When user A sends an INVITE with SDP, and the stream is sendrecv (which is > the default), the IP address in the c line for that stream is the address > where A expects to receive media for that stream. It DOES NOT imply that > the > source address of media that A sends will be equal to that IP address. The > source IP address is chosen by the underlying OS based on its routing > tables. As such, a multihomed host has no way to know what the source > address of its RTP packets will be, until it actually tries to send them. > So, clearly, the IP address in the c line in the INVITE cannot possibly be > the source address, since A doesn't even know yet where it will send > packets. > > Unfortunately, since rfc2543 does not explicitly say that the source > address > won't be the address in the c line, several implementations appear to have > assumed that it will be. I want to make sure we are clear that this > assumption is false. > > Please, in your implementations, do not make any assumptions about the > source address of media. > > Thanks, > Jonathan R. > > --- > Jonathan D. Rosenberg 72 Eagle Rock Ave. > Chief Scientist First Floor > dynamicsoft East Hanover, NJ 07936 > jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 > http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 > http://www.dynamicsoft.com > > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 1 19:21:06 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id TAA12273 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 19:21:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC56544337; Tue, 1 May 2001 19:21:03 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mail.net2phone.com (mail.net2phone.com [216.53.3.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4D2C44336 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 19:20:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailsvr.net2phone.com (exchange.net2phone.com [216.53.60.1]) by mail.net2phone.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA01878; Tue, 1 May 2001 19:15:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mailsvr.net2phone.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 1 May 2001 19:20:20 -0400 Message-ID: <6F46FABB90ABD411BD690002B3152FB9260235@lkwmail01.net2phone.com> From: Romel Khan To: "'Christian Huitema'" , Jonathan Rosenberg Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 19:15:45 -0400 Service providers may have a need to be able to send RTP streams to a port and receive RTP streams from a different port (different IP address and UDP port). Jonathan Rosenberg's point would solve that need. But security is definitely an issue (i.e. if no encryption method such as TLS/SSL has been decided between sender & receiver). After an entity sends its receiving port through SDP and does not care who sends data to that receiving port is most probably not going to be an acceptable solution to many providers who may not wish to use encryption either. So shouldn't SDP RFC be enhanced to be able to include the sending port in case different from the receiving port? Thanks. Romel Khan Ph: (732)-363-0213, x241 -----Original Message----- From: Christian Huitema [mailto:huitema@exchange.microsoft.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 5:11 PM To: Jonathan Rosenberg Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP Jonathan, The point were this is likely to be tested is firewall traversal. For security reasons, we are tempted to open a pinhole that specifies a "five tuple" -- source and destination IP address and port, protocol type. This requires being able to predict the source address used by the other end. According to your rule, we would not be able to do that. This seems reason enough to reconsider. By the way, the technical argument that you give is weak. It is possible to bind a socket to an address, which makes address selection possible even on multi-homed machines. -- Christian Huitema > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonathan Rosenberg [mailto:jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com] > Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 1:46 PM > To: 'sip@lists.bell-labs.com' > Subject: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP > > Folks, > > There appears to be some continuing confusion about the interpretation of > the IP address in the SDP of an INVITE or 200 OK. > > When user A sends an INVITE with SDP, and the stream is sendrecv (which is > the default), the IP address in the c line for that stream is the address > where A expects to receive media for that stream. It DOES NOT imply that > the > source address of media that A sends will be equal to that IP address. The > source IP address is chosen by the underlying OS based on its routing > tables. As such, a multihomed host has no way to know what the source > address of its RTP packets will be, until it actually tries to send them. > So, clearly, the IP address in the c line in the INVITE cannot possibly be > the source address, since A doesn't even know yet where it will send > packets. > > Unfortunately, since rfc2543 does not explicitly say that the source > address > won't be the address in the c line, several implementations appear to have > assumed that it will be. I want to make sure we are clear that this > assumption is false. > > Please, in your implementations, do not make any assumptions about the > source address of media. > > Thanks, > Jonathan R. > > --- > Jonathan D. Rosenberg 72 Eagle Rock Ave. > Chief Scientist First Floor > dynamicsoft East Hanover, NJ 07936 > jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 > http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 > http://www.dynamicsoft.com > > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 1 19:31:06 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id TAA12375 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 19:31:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F87C44353; Tue, 1 May 2001 19:31:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mail.inetmail.att.net (mailhost1.inetmail.att.net [204.127.132.33]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E3AB44337 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 19:30:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from email.masconit.com ([12.41.17.214]) by mail.inetmail.att.net (mtiagic01) with ESMTP id <20010501233033gi12828829e>; Tue, 1 May 2001 23:30:34 +0000 Received: from ashok (RANJIT [12.41.17.196]) by email.masconit.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id JB7P39GB; Tue, 1 May 2001 18:37:44 -0500 Message-ID: <029301c0d297$e28f2320$c411290c@masconit.com> Reply-To: "Ranjit Avasarala" From: "Ranjit Avasarala" To: "Romel Khan" , "'Christian Huitema'" , "Jonathan Rosenberg" Cc: References: <6F46FABB90ABD411BD690002B3152FB9260235@lkwmail01.net2phone.com> Subject: Re: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 18:38:54 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi But why should the receiver know about sender's sending port? Like if you go back to socket programming, the server only needs to know client's receiving port for sending data. it does not bother about client's sending port. So I feel there is no need to include sender's port number in the data. Any comments?? Regards Ranjit ----- Original Message ----- From: Romel Khan To: 'Christian Huitema' ; Jonathan Rosenberg Cc: Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 6:15 PM Subject: RE: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP Service providers may have a need to be able to send RTP streams to a port and receive RTP streams from a different port (different IP address and UDP port). Jonathan Rosenberg's point would solve that need. But security is definitely an issue (i.e. if no encryption method such as TLS/SSL has been decided between sender & receiver). After an entity sends its receiving port through SDP and does not care who sends data to that receiving port is most probably not going to be an acceptable solution to many providers who may not wish to use encryption either. So shouldn't SDP RFC be enhanced to be able to include the sending port in case different from the receiving port? Thanks. Romel Khan Ph: (732)-363-0213, x241 -----Original Message----- From: Christian Huitema [mailto:huitema@exchange.microsoft.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 5:11 PM To: Jonathan Rosenberg Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP Jonathan, The point were this is likely to be tested is firewall traversal. For security reasons, we are tempted to open a pinhole that specifies a "five tuple" -- source and destination IP address and port, protocol type. This requires being able to predict the source address used by the other end. According to your rule, we would not be able to do that. This seems reason enough to reconsider. By the way, the technical argument that you give is weak. It is possible to bind a socket to an address, which makes address selection possible even on multi-homed machines. -- Christian Huitema > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonathan Rosenberg [mailto:jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com] > Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 1:46 PM > To: 'sip@lists.bell-labs.com' > Subject: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP > > Folks, > > There appears to be some continuing confusion about the interpretation of > the IP address in the SDP of an INVITE or 200 OK. > > When user A sends an INVITE with SDP, and the stream is sendrecv (which is > the default), the IP address in the c line for that stream is the address > where A expects to receive media for that stream. It DOES NOT imply that > the > source address of media that A sends will be equal to that IP address. The > source IP address is chosen by the underlying OS based on its routing > tables. As such, a multihomed host has no way to know what the source > address of its RTP packets will be, until it actually tries to send them. > So, clearly, the IP address in the c line in the INVITE cannot possibly be > the source address, since A doesn't even know yet where it will send > packets. > > Unfortunately, since rfc2543 does not explicitly say that the source > address > won't be the address in the c line, several implementations appear to have > assumed that it will be. I want to make sure we are clear that this > assumption is false. > > Please, in your implementations, do not make any assumptions about the > source address of media. > > Thanks, > Jonathan R. > > --- > Jonathan D. Rosenberg 72 Eagle Rock Ave. > Chief Scientist First Floor > dynamicsoft East Hanover, NJ 07936 > jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 > http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 > http://www.dynamicsoft.com > > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 1 19:36:06 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id TAA12396 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 19:36:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60EE144364; Tue, 1 May 2001 19:36:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from hypnos.cps.intel.com (hypnos.cps.intel.com [192.198.165.17]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D43B744360 for ; Tue, 1 May 2001 19:35:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SMTP (fmsmsxvs03-1.fm.intel.com [132.233.42.203]) by hypnos.cps.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.36 2001/04/18 16:16:02 root Exp $) with SMTP id XAA06011; Tue, 1 May 2001 23:35:10 GMT Received: from fmsmsx19.fm.intel.com ([132.233.48.19]) by 132.233.48.203 (Norton AntiVirus for Internet Email Gateways 1.0) ; Tue, 01 May 2001 23:35:10 0000 (GMT) Received: by fmsmsx19.fm.intel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 1 May 2001 16:35:08 -0700 Message-ID: <4148FEAAD879D311AC5700A0C969E89006E18AB8@orsmsx35.jf.intel.com> From: "Gross, Gerhard" To: "'Romel Khan'" , "'Christian Huitema'" , Jonathan Rosenberg Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com, "'nhamer@nortelnetworks.com'" Subject: RE: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 16:35:06 -0700 AAA/Policy management also likes to have session 5-tuple information on which to make a policy based admission and AAA decisions. Ideally, this information would be relayed to the SIP proxy in SIP messages, then forwarded via other protocols to AAA/policy servers. AAA/policy actions would be taken before media was sent. Gery > -----Original Message----- > From: Romel Khan [mailto:rkhan@net2phone.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 4:16 PM > To: 'Christian Huitema'; Jonathan Rosenberg > Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com > Subject: RE: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP > > > Service providers may have a need to be able to send RTP > streams to a port > and receive RTP streams from a different port (different IP > address and UDP > port). Jonathan Rosenberg's point would solve that need. But > security is > definitely an issue (i.e. if no encryption method such as > TLS/SSL has been > decided between sender & receiver). After an entity sends its > receiving port > through SDP and does not care who sends data to that > receiving port is most > probably not going to be an acceptable solution to many > providers who may > not wish to use encryption either. > So shouldn't SDP RFC be enhanced to be able to include the > sending port in > case different from the receiving port? > > Thanks. > > Romel Khan > Ph: (732)-363-0213, x241 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Christian Huitema [mailto:huitema@exchange.microsoft.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 5:11 PM > To: Jonathan Rosenberg > Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com > Subject: RE: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP > > > Jonathan, > > The point were this is likely to be tested is firewall traversal. For > security reasons, we are tempted to open a pinhole that specifies a > "five tuple" -- source and destination IP address and port, protocol > type. This requires being able to predict the source address > used by the > other end. According to your rule, we would not be able to do > that. This > seems reason enough to reconsider. > > By the way, the technical argument that you give is weak. It > is possible > to bind a socket to an address, which makes address selection possible > even on multi-homed machines. > > -- Christian Huitema > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jonathan Rosenberg [mailto:jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com] > > Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 1:46 PM > > To: 'sip@lists.bell-labs.com' > > Subject: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP > > > > Folks, > > > > There appears to be some continuing confusion about the > interpretation > of > > the IP address in the SDP of an INVITE or 200 OK. > > > > When user A sends an INVITE with SDP, and the stream is sendrecv > (which is > > the default), the IP address in the c line for that stream is the > address > > where A expects to receive media for that stream. It DOES NOT imply > that > > the > > source address of media that A sends will be equal to that > IP address. > The > > source IP address is chosen by the underlying OS based on > its routing > > tables. As such, a multihomed host has no way to know what > the source > > address of its RTP packets will be, until it actually tries to send > them. > > So, clearly, the IP address in the c line in the INVITE cannot > possibly be > > the source address, since A doesn't even know yet where it will send > > packets. > > > > Unfortunately, since rfc2543 does not explicitly say that the source > > address > > won't be the address in the c line, several implementations > appear to > have > > assumed that it will be. I want to make sure we are clear that this > > assumption is false. > > > > Please, in your implementations, do not make any > assumptions about the > > source address of media. > > > > Thanks, > > Jonathan R. > > > > --- > > Jonathan D. Rosenberg 72 Eagle Rock Ave. > > Chief Scientist First Floor > > dynamicsoft East Hanover, NJ 07936 > > jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 > > http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 > > http://www.dynamicsoft.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > > To subscribe to it, send mail to > > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" > in the body. > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 2 00:47:06 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id AAA17851 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 00:47:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D25044337; Wed, 2 May 2001 00:47:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from acmepacket.com (mail1.acmepacket.com [63.67.143.10]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D5E944336 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 00:46:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from BobP [216.12.226.156] by acmepacket.com (SMTPD32-6.05) id A0B446800F2; Wed, 02 May 2001 00:44:36 -0400 Message-ID: <00d401c0d2c3$078cd660$9ce20cd8@acmepacket.com> From: "Bob Penfield" To: "Ranjit Avasarala" , "Romel Khan" , "'Christian Huitema'" , "Jonathan Rosenberg" Cc: References: <6F46FABB90ABD411BD690002B3152FB9260235@lkwmail01.net2phone.com> <029301c0d297$e28f2320$c411290c@masconit.com> Subject: Re: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 00:47:42 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ranjit Avasarala" To: "Romel Khan" ; "'Christian Huitema'" ; "Jonathan Rosenberg" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 7:38 PM Subject: Re: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP > Hi > But why should the receiver know about sender's sending port? Like if > you go back to socket programming, the server only > needs to know client's receiving port for sending data. it does not bother > about client's sending port. So I feel there is no need > to include sender's port number in the data. The receiver (UAS) does not need to know the sender's sending port, but a SIP proxy or ALG in the signalling path that needs to tell a middlebox (e.g. NAT or Firewall) to let the RTP flow thru needs the sender's sending port, otherwise it has to say let all packets from any IP Address and port thru to the sender's (UAC's) receiving port. That would be a very bad thing from a security point of view. Bob d:-) > > Any comments?? > > Regards > Ranjit > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Romel Khan > To: 'Christian Huitema' ; Jonathan Rosenberg > > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 6:15 PM > Subject: RE: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP > > > Service providers may have a need to be able to send RTP streams to a port > and receive RTP streams from a different port (different IP address and UDP > port). Jonathan Rosenberg's point would solve that need. But security is > definitely an issue (i.e. if no encryption method such as TLS/SSL has been > decided between sender & receiver). After an entity sends its receiving port > through SDP and does not care who sends data to that receiving port is most > probably not going to be an acceptable solution to many providers who may > not wish to use encryption either. > So shouldn't SDP RFC be enhanced to be able to include the sending port in > case different from the receiving port? > > Thanks. > > Romel Khan > Ph: (732)-363-0213, x241 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Christian Huitema [mailto:huitema@exchange.microsoft.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 5:11 PM > To: Jonathan Rosenberg > Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com > Subject: RE: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP > > > Jonathan, > > The point were this is likely to be tested is firewall traversal. For > security reasons, we are tempted to open a pinhole that specifies a > "five tuple" -- source and destination IP address and port, protocol > type. This requires being able to predict the source address used by the > other end. According to your rule, we would not be able to do that. This > seems reason enough to reconsider. > > By the way, the technical argument that you give is weak. It is possible > to bind a socket to an address, which makes address selection possible > even on multi-homed machines. > > -- Christian Huitema > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jonathan Rosenberg [mailto:jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com] > > Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 1:46 PM > > To: 'sip@lists.bell-labs.com' > > Subject: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP > > > > Folks, > > > > There appears to be some continuing confusion about the interpretation > of > > the IP address in the SDP of an INVITE or 200 OK. > > > > When user A sends an INVITE with SDP, and the stream is sendrecv > (which is > > the default), the IP address in the c line for that stream is the > address > > where A expects to receive media for that stream. It DOES NOT imply > that > > the > > source address of media that A sends will be equal to that IP address. > The > > source IP address is chosen by the underlying OS based on its routing > > tables. As such, a multihomed host has no way to know what the source > > address of its RTP packets will be, until it actually tries to send > them. > > So, clearly, the IP address in the c line in the INVITE cannot > possibly be > > the source address, since A doesn't even know yet where it will send > > packets. > > > > Unfortunately, since rfc2543 does not explicitly say that the source > > address > > won't be the address in the c line, several implementations appear to > have > > assumed that it will be. I want to make sure we are clear that this > > assumption is false. > > > > Please, in your implementations, do not make any assumptions about the > > source address of media. > > > > Thanks, > > Jonathan R. > > > > --- > > Jonathan D. Rosenberg 72 Eagle Rock Ave. > > Chief Scientist First Floor > > dynamicsoft East Hanover, NJ 07936 > > jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 > > http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 > > http://www.dynamicsoft.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > > To subscribe to it, send mail to > > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 2 03:50:05 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id DAA03158 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 03:50:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BEC244337; Wed, 2 May 2001 03:50:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from exch-ldn1.deltathree.com (unknown [213.137.70.14]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61F7044336 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 03:49:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by exch-ldn1.deltathree.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 2 May 2001 08:47:50 +0100 Message-ID: From: David Schwartz To: "'sip@lists.bell-labs.com'" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Subject: [SIP] RE: SIP digest, Vol 1 #1001 - 7 msgs Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 08:47:19 +0100 Hi. Is there any way to authenticate a response in SIP? In particular, if a UAS sends a redirect response, is there any way to verify that this response is indeed coming from the UAS I invited and is not being spoofed? How can I make sure I am being redirected to the right place? Digest as far as I know applies only to requests and not responses? Any Suggestions? David Schwartz deltathree -----Original Message----- From: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com [mailto:sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com]On Behalf Of sip-request@lists.bell-labs.com Sent: Wed, May 02, 2001 6:48 AM To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: SIP digest, Vol 1 #1001 - 7 msgs Send SIP mailing list submissions to sip@lists.bell-labs.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.bell-labs.com/mailman/listinfo/sip or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to sip-request@lists.bell-labs.com You can reach the person managing the list at sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of SIP digest..." _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 2 07:21:06 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id HAA05604 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 07:21:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DD1744337; Wed, 2 May 2001 07:21:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from drago1.ubiquity.net (news.ubiquity.net [194.202.146.92]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id D3FDA44336 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 07:20:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gecko by drago1.ubiquity.net via smtpd (for share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) with SMTP; 2 May 2001 11:20:03 UT Received: from neil by ubiquity.net with SMTP (8.8.8+Sun/25-eef) id MAA24685; Wed, 2 May 2001 12:19:59 +0100 (BST) From: "Neil Deason" To: "Sip List" , Cc: "Rakesh Shah" Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Subject: [SIP] Last Call Review - draft-campbell-sip-cc-framework-02.txt Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 12:21:17 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A couple of minor points on this draft as it enters Last Call Review ... - The introduction includes third party control as an example of call control but the remainder of the document doesn't mention the body of work that exists for SIP 3pcc or how this relates to the proposed model. - Is the reference to draft-mahy-sip-cc-models-00.txt valid? I can't track down this draft at the IETF site. Cheers, Neil. -- Ubiquity Software Corporation, UK http://www.ubiquity.net _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 2 08:40:05 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id IAA08201 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 08:40:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61F2144356; Wed, 2 May 2001 08:40:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from znsgs0ja.nortelnetworks.com (h44s128a211n47.user.nortelnetworks.com [47.211.128.44]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id DC5D244353 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 08:39:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from qnsgs000.nortel.com by znsgs0ja.nortelnetworks.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA28272; Wed, 2 May 2001 13:39:49 +0100 Received: from nwcwi1a.europe.nortel.com by qnsgs000.nortel.com; Wed, 2 May 2001 13:39:24 +0100 Received: by nwcwi1a.europe.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 2 May 2001 13:39:22 +0100 Message-ID: <757032945337D2118E6B0000F8080CC10A468C9B@zwcwd002.europe.nortel.com> From: "Chris Hogg" To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Cc: "Mark Watson" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C0D304.EA3C6390" Subject: [SIP] Early Media using the manyfolks draft Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 13:39:22 +0100 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0D304.EA3C6390 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi everyone, I'd like to present the following for comment by the list: Below is a proposal for handling some aspects of Early Media using both the RFC2543bis-02 and the manyfolks draft for resource reservation. This proposal could be applied in systems that will always use the manyfolks extension to enable resource reservation, QoS, and security. An example application would be the IMS in a 3GPP mobile network. In this example the need for Early Media arises from interworking with the PSTN; specifically for: - delivery of call progress tones and - to prevent clipping of voice on answer. My question is: Is this interpretation of how the manyfolks draft can be used in combination with the RFC2543bis-02 acceptable? Early Media & Manyfolks: - "Manyfolks" discusses how network QoS and security establishment can be made a precondition to sessions initiated by SIP, and described by SDP. - It allows SDP to be sent inside 1xx provisional responses (other than 100) and PRACKs. - Note that from a standards point of view the SDP is not to be used to negotiate media and codecs. The sender of an SDP is required to accept any of the media/codecs it included. - However, if a system level requirement is imposed that a single media type and codec is to be used in both send and receive directions, negotiation to a single choice of media and codec is effectively what happens. Call flow: In this call flow the UAS is acting as the signalling gateway to the PSTN. The details of what is included in the SDP body is omitted here for simplicity, but it is assumed that the necessary parameters are included to ensure that establishment of QoS is mandatory in both directions as a precondition of the call. UAC UAS PSTN --- --- ---- | 1)INVITE[SDP] | ------> | 2)183[SDP] | <-------- | 3)PRACK [SDP] | ------> | 4)200 OK | <-------- | | ======> RESOURCE <===== | 5) RESERVATION | | 6)COMET[SDP]| <-------- | 7)200 OK(COMET) | -------> | | 8)COMET[SDP] | -------> | 9)200 OK(COMET) | 10)IAM <-------- | -------> | 11) 1-WAY MEDIA | 12)BACKWARDS VOICE <====================== |<==================== | | 13)ACM | <-------- 14)183[SDP] | <-------- | 15)PRACK | -------> | | 16)ANM | <-------- 18)200 OK(INVITE) | 17) 2-WAY VOICE <-------- |<====================> | 19) 2-WAY MEDIA | <======================>| | 20)ACK | -------> | [Call now established. Rest of the call flow omitted] SIP RFC2543bis02 draft offers a number of options for event #14. The UAS can send any of the following to the UAC at this stage: 1. 180 with SDP, port=0 means called party alerting, play local ringing 2. 180 with SDP, port>0 means called party alerting, play media 3. 183 with SDP, port=0 means address complete, play local ringing 4. 183 with SDP, port>0 means address complete, play media 5. 180 without SDP means called party alerting, continue existing behaviour 6. 183 without SDP means address complete, continue existing behaviour (In all cases the SDP can only include media agreed earlier by the UAC and UAS.) These options might be used for the following reasons in the example call flow: - 180 indicates that the ACM received included indication that the called subscriber was free (and therefore alerting) - 183 indicates that the ACM received did not indicate the status of the callee - Including SDP with port=0 indicates to the UAS to cease playing any media and synthesise ringing - Including SDP with port>0 indicates to the UAS to cease any local ringing and play any arriving media - Not including an SDP means the UAS should continue its current behaviour regarding ringing or playing media In the call flow above, the SDP in event #14 has a non-zero port number. This has the effect of indicating to the UAC that it should continue to play early media. Alternatively if we assume that in event #2 an SDP was included in the 183 with port>0, the absence of SDP in #14 would have had the same effect; i.e. that any early media arriving at the UAC would have continued to be been played. In this example call flow the caller at the UAC would have listened to early media, carrying the sound of far end ringing from the PSTN between event #13 and #16/17. Additional Issues arising: 1. The use of setting port numbers in SDP to 0 in order to indicate media flow should cease is an IP specific solution and goes against the grain of SIP being independent of the bearer protocol in use. This is a much wider protocol issue. Has any work been done on a generic method for indicating media should stop being played? 2. In flow #14 above, the port number in the SDP may be set to 0 to indicate to the UAC to stop playing any early media that it receives. However, bis02 indicates that any SDP sent from a node refers to the media which that node can receive. Is it acceptable to use the backwards SDP (from UAS to UAC) to indicate to the UAC to stop playing any early media that it is receiving or is there a need for a new indication? Any comments would be most welcome. Many thanks Chris Hogg Strategic Product Planning Nortel Networks Tel: +44 (0)1628-43-1720 email: chogg@nortelnetworks.com ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0D304.EA3C6390 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Early Media using the manyfolks draft

Hi everyone,

I'd like to present the following for = comment by the list:

Below is a proposal for handling some = aspects of Early Media using both the RFC2543bis-02 and the manyfolks = draft for resource reservation. This proposal could be applied in = systems that will always use the manyfolks extension to enable resource = reservation, QoS, and security. An example application would be the IMS = in a 3GPP mobile network. In this example the need for Early Media = arises from interworking with the PSTN; specifically for:

- delivery of call progress tones = and
- to prevent clipping of voice on = answer.

My question is: Is this interpretation = of how the manyfolks draft can be used in combination with the = RFC2543bis-02 acceptable?

Early Media & Manyfolks:

- "Manyfolks" discusses how network = QoS and security establishment can be made a precondition to sessions = initiated by SIP, and described by SDP.

- It allows SDP to be sent inside 1xx = provisional responses (other than 100) and PRACKs.
- Note that from a standards point of = view the SDP is not to be used to negotiate media and codecs. The = sender of an SDP is required to accept any of the media/codecs it = included.

- However, if a system level = requirement is imposed that a single media type and codec is to be used = in both send and receive directions, negotiation to a single choice of = media and codec is effectively what happens.

Call flow:

In this call flow the UAS is acting as = the signalling gateway to the PSTN. The details of what is included in = the SDP body is omitted here for simplicity, but it is assumed that the = necessary parameters are included to ensure that establishment of QoS = is mandatory in both directions as a precondition of the call. =


UAC          &nbs= p;         = UAS           &nb= sp;     PSTN
---          &nbs= p;         = ---           &nb= sp;     ----
           &= nbsp;            = |
1)INVITE[SDP]         =   |
------>         &nb= sp;       |
           &= nbsp; 2)183[SDP] |
           &= nbsp;  <-------- |
3)PRACK [SDP]   &= nbsp;       |
------>         &nb= sp;       |
           &= nbsp;  4)200 OK  |
           &= nbsp;  <-------- |
           &= nbsp;            = |
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> RESOURCE = <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D |
    5) = RESERVATION      |
           &= nbsp;            = |
            = 6)COMET[SDP]|
           &= nbsp;  <-------- |
7)200 = OK(COMET)         |
------->         &n= bsp;      |
           &= nbsp;            = |
8)COMET[SDP]         &= nbsp;  |
------->         &n= bsp;      |
        9)200 OK(COMET) | = 10)IAM
           &= nbsp;  <-------- | ------->
           &= nbsp;            = |
  11) 1-WAY = MEDIA       | 12)BACKWARDS VOICE
<=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D = |<=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
           &= nbsp;            = |
           &= nbsp;            = |            = ;   13)ACM
           &= nbsp;            = |            = ; <--------
            = 14)183[SDP] |
           &= nbsp;  <-------- |
15)PRACK          = ;      |
------->         &n= bsp;      |
           &= nbsp;            = |            = ;    16)ANM
           &= nbsp;            = |            = ; <--------
      = 18)200 OK(INVITE) |   17) 2-WAY VOICE
           &= nbsp;  <-------- = |<=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D>
           &= nbsp;            = |
  19) 2-WAY = MEDIA       |
<=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D>|
           &= nbsp;            = |
20)ACK          &= nbsp;       |
------->         &n= bsp;      |

[Call now established. Rest of = the call flow omitted]


SIP RFC2543bis02 draft offers a number = of options for event #14. The UAS can send any of the following to the = UAC at this stage:

1. 180 with SDP, port=3D0 means called = party alerting, play local ringing
2. 180 with SDP, port>0 means = called party alerting, play media
3. 183 with SDP, port=3D0 means = address complete, play local ringing
4. 183 with SDP, port>0 means = address complete, play media
5. 180 without SDP means called party = alerting, continue existing behaviour
6. 183 without SDP means address = complete, continue existing behaviour
(In all cases the SDP can only = include media agreed earlier by the UAC and UAS.)

These options might be used for the = following reasons in the example call flow:
- 180 indicates that the ACM received = included indication that the called subscriber was free (and therefore = alerting)
- 183 indicates that the ACM received = did not indicate the status of the callee
- Including SDP with port=3D0 = indicates to the UAS to cease playing any media and synthesise = ringing
- Including SDP with port>0 = indicates to the UAS to cease any local ringing and play any arriving = media
- Not including an SDP means the UAS = should continue its current behaviour regarding ringing or playing = media

In the call flow above, the SDP in = event #14 has a non-zero port number. This has the effect of indicating = to the UAC that it should continue to play early media. Alternatively = if we assume that in event #2 an SDP was included in the 183 with = port>0, the absence of SDP in #14 would have had the same effect; = i.e. that any early media arriving at the UAC would have continued to = be been played.

In this example call flow the caller = at the UAC would have listened to early media, carrying the sound of = far end ringing from the PSTN between event #13 and #16/17.

Additional Issues arising:

1. The use of setting port numbers in = SDP to 0 in order to indicate media flow should cease is an IP specific = solution and goes against the grain of SIP being independent of the = bearer protocol in use. This is a much wider protocol issue.  Has = any work been done on a generic method for indicating media should stop = being played?

2. In flow #14 above, the port number = in the SDP may be set to 0 to indicate to the UAC to stop playing any = early media that it receives.  However, bis02 indicates that any = SDP sent from a node refers to the media which that node can = receive.  Is it acceptable to use the backwards SDP (from UAS to = UAC) to indicate to the UAC to stop playing any early media that it is = receiving or is there a need for a new indication?

Any comments would be most = welcome.

Many thanks

Chris Hogg
Strategic Product Planning
Nortel Networks
Tel: +44 (0)1628-43-1720
email: = chogg@nortelnetworks.com

------_=_NextPart_001_01C0D304.EA3C6390-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 2 09:55:07 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA11192 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 09:55:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2C3A4436E; Wed, 2 May 2001 09:55:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from valiant.cnchost.com (valiant.concentric.net [207.155.252.9]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ECF74436E for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 09:54:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from WINNT ([207.113.13.1]) by valiant.cnchost.com id JAA04481; Wed, 2 May 2001 09:54:28 -0400 (EDT) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.10] Message-ID: <004701c0d2ab$a63bc770$bde4b4cc@netoids.com> From: "Medhavi" Cc: References: <6F46FABB90ABD411BD690002B3152FB9260235@lkwmail01.net2phone.com> <029301c0d297$e28f2320$c411290c@masconit.com> <00d401c0d2c3$078cd660$9ce20cd8@acmepacket.com> Subject: Re: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP Organization: Nextone Communications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 22:00:22 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I dont think that source port/IP address checks provide any security in this matter. The real security would be using encryption which may be expensive and hard to get right. If a hacker wants to break down a call, or interfere with it, changing the source address/port of the packets which he sends to that of the actual source is probably the easiest thing to do. So if the receiver is concerned about security, he must take other measures as well, in addition to source check. Once we have them in place, maybe the source check wont be that necessary, and may in fact become a problem for protocol design later. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Penfield" To: "Ranjit Avasarala" ; "Romel Khan" ; "'Christian Huitema'" ; "Jonathan Rosenberg" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 12:47 AM Subject: Re: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ranjit Avasarala" > To: "Romel Khan" ; "'Christian Huitema'" > ; "Jonathan Rosenberg" > > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 7:38 PM > Subject: Re: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP > > > > Hi > > But why should the receiver know about sender's sending port? Like if > > you go back to socket programming, the server only > > needs to know client's receiving port for sending data. it does not bother > > about client's sending port. So I feel there is no need > > to include sender's port number in the data. > > The receiver (UAS) does not need to know the sender's sending port, but a > SIP proxy or ALG in the signalling path that needs to tell a middlebox (e.g. > NAT or Firewall) to let the RTP flow thru needs the sender's sending port, > otherwise it has to say let all packets from any IP Address and port thru to > the sender's (UAC's) receiving port. That would be a very bad thing from a > security point of view. > > Bob > d:-) > > > > > Any comments?? > > > > Regards > > Ranjit > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Romel Khan > > To: 'Christian Huitema' ; Jonathan > Rosenberg > > > > Cc: > > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 6:15 PM > > Subject: RE: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP > > > > > > Service providers may have a need to be able to send RTP streams to a port > > and receive RTP streams from a different port (different IP address and > UDP > > port). Jonathan Rosenberg's point would solve that need. But security is > > definitely an issue (i.e. if no encryption method such as TLS/SSL has been > > decided between sender & receiver). After an entity sends its receiving > port > > through SDP and does not care who sends data to that receiving port is > most > > probably not going to be an acceptable solution to many providers who may > > not wish to use encryption either. > > So shouldn't SDP RFC be enhanced to be able to include the sending port in > > case different from the receiving port? > > > > Thanks. > > > > Romel Khan > > Ph: (732)-363-0213, x241 > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Christian Huitema [mailto:huitema@exchange.microsoft.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 5:11 PM > > To: Jonathan Rosenberg > > Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com > > Subject: RE: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP > > > > > > Jonathan, > > > > The point were this is likely to be tested is firewall traversal. For > > security reasons, we are tempted to open a pinhole that specifies a > > "five tuple" -- source and destination IP address and port, protocol > > type. This requires being able to predict the source address used by the > > other end. According to your rule, we would not be able to do that. This > > seems reason enough to reconsider. > > > > By the way, the technical argument that you give is weak. It is possible > > to bind a socket to an address, which makes address selection possible > > even on multi-homed machines. > > > > -- Christian Huitema > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Jonathan Rosenberg [mailto:jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com] > > > Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 1:46 PM > > > To: 'sip@lists.bell-labs.com' > > > Subject: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP > > > > > > Folks, > > > > > > There appears to be some continuing confusion about the interpretation > > of > > > the IP address in the SDP of an INVITE or 200 OK. > > > > > > When user A sends an INVITE with SDP, and the stream is sendrecv > > (which is > > > the default), the IP address in the c line for that stream is the > > address > > > where A expects to receive media for that stream. It DOES NOT imply > > that > > > the > > > source address of media that A sends will be equal to that IP address. > > The > > > source IP address is chosen by the underlying OS based on its routing > > > tables. As such, a multihomed host has no way to know what the source > > > address of its RTP packets will be, until it actually tries to send > > them. > > > So, clearly, the IP address in the c line in the INVITE cannot > > possibly be > > > the source address, since A doesn't even know yet where it will send > > > packets. > > > > > > Unfortunately, since rfc2543 does not explicitly say that the source > > > address > > > won't be the address in the c line, several implementations appear to > > have > > > assumed that it will be. I want to make sure we are clear that this > > > assumption is false. > > > > > > Please, in your implementations, do not make any assumptions about the > > > source address of media. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Jonathan R. > > > > > > --- > > > Jonathan D. Rosenberg 72 Eagle Rock Ave. > > > Chief Scientist First Floor > > > dynamicsoft East Hanover, NJ 07936 > > > jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 > > > http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 > > > http://www.dynamicsoft.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > > > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > > > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > > > To subscribe to it, send mail to > > > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > > To subscribe to it, send mail to > > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > > To subscribe to it, send mail to > > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > > To subscribe to it, send mail to > > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 2 11:18:05 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA14420 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 11:18:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66AB444337; Wed, 2 May 2001 11:18:03 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from cisco.com (bounty.cisco.com [64.102.17.204]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C753344336 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 11:17:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cisco.com (rtp-xdm1.cisco.com [64.102.17.80]) by cisco.com (8.8.8/2.5.1/Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA21894; Wed, 2 May 2001 11:16:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3AF024EF.82CBB31C@cisco.com> From: Manoj Bhatia Organization: Cisco Systems, RTP, NC, USA. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51C-CISCOENG [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com, moses@cisco.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------ED9489ECEC611C4EADC6A7CB" Subject: [SIP] RFC2543bis-03 ? Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 11:17:03 -0400 --------------ED9489ECEC611C4EADC6A7CB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jonathan The bis draft vers 02 has expired. Do you have a tentative date on when the bis03 would be available ? thanks -manoj -- Manoj Bhatia | | | manojb@cisco.com | :|: :|: 7025 Kit Creek Road, RTP, NC - 27709 | :|||||: :|||||: Ph: 919-392-3873 Fax:919-392-6801 | C i s c o S y s t e m s --------------ED9489ECEC611C4EADC6A7CB Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jonathan

The bis draft vers 02 has expired. Do you have a tentative date on when the bis03
would be available ?

thanks
-manoj
  

-- 
Manoj Bhatia                           |        |         |
manojb@cisco.com                       |       :|:       :|:
7025 Kit Creek Road, RTP, NC - 27709   |     :|||||:   :|||||:
Ph: 919-392-3873  Fax:919-392-6801     |  C i s c o S y s t e m s
  --------------ED9489ECEC611C4EADC6A7CB-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 2 12:27:04 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA16281 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 12:27:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A00C4434B; Wed, 2 May 2001 12:27:03 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from imr2.ericy.com (unknown [12.34.240.68]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77DED4434B for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 12:26:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mr5.exu.ericsson.se (mr5att.ericy.com [138.85.92.13]) by imr2.ericy.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f42GEG823012; Wed, 2 May 2001 11:14:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from newman.exu.ericsson.se (newman.exu.ericsson.se [138.85.75.179]) by mr5.exu.ericsson.se (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f42GEGd28278; Wed, 2 May 2001 11:14:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from eusadam (pc050163.exu.ericsson.se [138.85.50.163]) by newman.exu.ericsson.se (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA21519; Wed, 2 May 2001 11:14:15 -0500 (CDT) From: adam.roach@ericsson.com Reply-To: To: "'Chris Hogg'" , Cc: "Mark Watson" Subject: RE: [SIP] Early Media using the manyfolks draft Message-ID: <61D824C63B99D311975E00508B0CC98502251740@eamrcnt717.exu.ericsson.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <757032945337D2118E6B0000F8080CC10A468C9B@zwcwd002.europe.nortel.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 11:14:13 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a good question. As we discovered at the interrim meeting in Plano, there are a lot of extremely complicated issues surrounding it. In the interest of keeping the majority of us who can still claim sanity sane, I'd *strongly* suggest postponing discussion of this issue on the list until we blow through a few more of our work items (http://www.greycouncil.com/sipwg/draftstatus/lc_calendar.html). /a -----Original Message----- From: Chris Hogg [mailto:chogg@nortelnetworks.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 7:39 AM To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Cc: Mark Watson Subject: [SIP] Early Media using the manyfolks draft Hi everyone, I'd like to present the following for comment by the list: Below is a proposal for handling some aspects of Early Media using both the RFC2543bis-02 and the manyfolks draft for resource reservation. This proposal could be applied in systems that will always use the manyfolks extension to enable resource reservation, QoS, and security. An example application would be the IMS in a 3GPP mobile network. In this example the need for Early Media arises from interworking with the PSTN; specifically for: - delivery of call progress tones and - to prevent clipping of voice on answer. My question is: Is this interpretation of how the manyfolks draft can be used in combination with the RFC2543bis-02 acceptable? Early Media & Manyfolks: - "Manyfolks" discusses how network QoS and security establishment can be made a precondition to sessions initiated by SIP, and described by SDP. - It allows SDP to be sent inside 1xx provisional responses (other than 100) and PRACKs. - Note that from a standards point of view the SDP is not to be used to negotiate media and codecs. The sender of an SDP is required to accept any of the media/codecs it included. - However, if a system level requirement is imposed that a single media type and codec is to be used in both send and receive directions, negotiation to a single choice of media and codec is effectively what happens. Call flow: In this call flow the UAS is acting as the signalling gateway to the PSTN. The details of what is included in the SDP body is omitted here for simplicity, but it is assumed that the necessary parameters are included to ensure that establishment of QoS is mandatory in both directions as a precondition of the call. UAC UAS PSTN --- --- ---- | 1)INVITE[SDP] | ------> | 2)183[SDP] | <-------- | 3)PRACK [SDP] | ------> | 4)200 OK | <-------- | | ======> RESOURCE <===== | 5) RESERVATION | | 6)COMET[SDP]| <-------- | 7)200 OK(COMET) | -------> | | 8)COMET[SDP] | -------> | 9)200 OK(COMET) | 10)IAM <-------- | -------> | 11) 1-WAY MEDIA | 12)BACKWARDS VOICE <====================== |<==================== | | 13)ACM | <-------- 14)183[SDP] | <-------- | 15)PRACK | -------> | | 16)ANM | <-------- 18)200 OK(INVITE) | 17) 2-WAY VOICE <-------- |<====================> | 19) 2-WAY MEDIA | <======================>| | 20)ACK | -------> | [Call now established. Rest of the call flow omitted] SIP RFC2543bis02 draft offers a number of options for event #14. The UAS can send any of the following to the UAC at this stage: 1. 180 with SDP, port=0 means called party alerting, play local ringing 2. 180 with SDP, port>0 means called party alerting, play media 3. 183 with SDP, port=0 means address complete, play local ringing 4. 183 with SDP, port>0 means address complete, play media 5. 180 without SDP means called party alerting, continue existing behaviour 6. 183 without SDP means address complete, continue existing behaviour (In all cases the SDP can only include media agreed earlier by the UAC and UAS.) These options might be used for the following reasons in the example call flow: - 180 indicates that the ACM received included indication that the called subscriber was free (and therefore alerting) - 183 indicates that the ACM received did not indicate the status of the callee - Including SDP with port=0 indicates to the UAS to cease playing any media and synthesise ringing - Including SDP with port>0 indicates to the UAS to cease any local ringing and play any arriving media - Not including an SDP means the UAS should continue its current behaviour regarding ringing or playing media In the call flow above, the SDP in event #14 has a non-zero port number. This has the effect of indicating to the UAC that it should continue to play early media. Alternatively if we assume that in event #2 an SDP was included in the 183 with port>0, the absence of SDP in #14 would have had the same effect; i.e. that any early media arriving at the UAC would have continued to be been played. In this example call flow the caller at the UAC would have listened to early media, carrying the sound of far end ringing from the PSTN between event #13 and #16/17. Additional Issues arising: 1. The use of setting port numbers in SDP to 0 in order to indicate media flow should cease is an IP specific solution and goes against the grain of SIP being independent of the bearer protocol in use. This is a much wider protocol issue. Has any work been done on a generic method for indicating media should stop being played? 2. In flow #14 above, the port number in the SDP may be set to 0 to indicate to the UAC to stop playing any early media that it receives. However, bis02 indicates that any SDP sent from a node refers to the media which that node can receive. Is it acceptable to use the backwards SDP (from UAS to UAC) to indicate to the UAC to stop playing any early media that it is receiving or is there a need for a new indication? Any comments would be most welcome. Many thanks Chris Hogg Strategic Product Planning Nortel Networks Tel: +44 (0)1628-43-1720 email: chogg@nortelnetworks.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 2 12:35:05 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA16544 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 12:35:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49BBB44365; Wed, 2 May 2001 12:35:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from df-inet1.exchange.microsoft.com (df-inet1.exchange.microsoft.com [131.107.8.8]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B72544336 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 12:34:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from df-virus2.platinum.corp.microsoft.com ([172.30.236.33]) by df-inet1.exchange.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2905); Wed, 2 May 2001 09:35:44 -0700 Received: from 172.30.236.11 by df-virus2.platinum.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Wed, 02 May 2001 09:34:54 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Received: from speak.platinum.corp.microsoft.com ([172.30.236.197]) by yuri.dns.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2966); Wed, 2 May 2001 09:34:54 -0700 content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.4703.0 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP Thread-Index: AcDTD+1vI3zqoyg5S/eN3JBF39BoQAAENjgA From: "Christian Huitema" To: "Medhavi" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 May 2001 16:34:54.0399 (UTC) FILETIME=[D13BECF0:01C0D325] Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 09:34:53 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ietf.org id MAA16544 One of the most interesting outcome of this discussion should be a memo describing the requirements to the MIDCOM protocol, and then a reverse memo describing the requirement imposed by midcom to SIP. As it stands today, we have the following: 1) Conventional firewall logic is that you want to open a pin-hole, not a truck-sized gap. This means that a five-tuple hole is preferred (protocol type, two address and port pairs) over a three-tuple (internal address+port pair, protocol type). 2) Our current specification of early media only works if the client can receive media immediately after sending an INVITE, which requires opening a three-tuple hole. 3) The five-tuple can only be known by the caller after receiving the 200-OK. This creates a race condition between the signaling message and the first RTP packets sent by the callee; should the 200-OK loose the race, the early RTP packets will bang against a closed firewall and be clipped. 4) The only way to guarantee that we don't have clipping of the initial packets is to require that no RTP packet be sent until the initial ACK is received. This is a problem similar to the "resource reservation" issue studied in the manyfolks draft. Since we want to enable media immediately after the call acceptation, this means that we have some kind of two-phase set-up: first set up a path with an initial three ways handshake, and then re-invite and start ringing. Doing that is not compatible with existing implementations, and would require a serious revisiting of the gatewaying between POTS and SIP. 5) Even if we implemented the two-phase handshake, the early-media problem would remain. There is a common telephony practice of sending recorded announcements during call set-up; the source IP address of these announcements is not likely to be the same as the source IP address used after call set-up is complete. It is theoretically possible to use the equivalent of call transfer to switch between multiple source in a controlled fashion, but this introduce a lot of signaling complexity. 6) The source IP address should be allowed to change during a call, e.g. if we want calls to outlive network renumbering. SIP supports that through the re-invite mechanism, but enforcing a five-tuple control introduces either a gap in the call or a race condition between RTP packets with the new source address and the re-INVITE. 7) Even if we changed the call flows, there are doubts that we can actually specify the five tuple, at least for the incoming packets: the source IP address may be unpredictable in the case of multi-homed hosts; the source port may be systematically different from the receive port in some implementation, e.g. parallel processing of the send and receive channels by different software or hardware components. 8) Many implementations already support exchange of RTP level authentication and encryption keys during the SIP call set-up. This provides a level of security that is at least as good as any control of the source address and port: if attackers can manage to read the signaling exchange and get the keys, they can just as well discover the IP addresses and ports, and send forged packets. So, can we convince midcom that we actually need to open holes that are a tiny bit larger than the initial pin-hole? Maybe something like a three-tuple hole on the receive side, and either a three-tuple or a five-tuple on the sending side? -- Christian Huitema > -----Original Message----- > From: Medhavi [mailto:mbhatia@nextone.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 7:00 PM > Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com > Subject: Re: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP > > I dont think that source port/IP address checks provide > any security in this matter. The real security would be using > encryption which may be expensive and hard to get right. > > If a hacker wants to break down a call, or interfere with it, > changing the source address/port of the packets which he sends > to that of the actual source is probably the easiest thing to do. > So if the receiver is concerned about security, he must take other > measures as well, in addition to source check. Once we have them in place, > maybe the source check wont be that necessary, and may in fact become > a problem for protocol design later. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bob Penfield" > To: "Ranjit Avasarala" ; "Romel Khan" > ; "'Christian Huitema'" > ; "Jonathan Rosenberg" > > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 12:47 AM > Subject: Re: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ranjit Avasarala" > > To: "Romel Khan" ; "'Christian Huitema'" > > ; "Jonathan Rosenberg" > > > > Cc: > > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 7:38 PM > > Subject: Re: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP > > > > > > > Hi > > > But why should the receiver know about sender's sending port? Like > if > > > you go back to socket programming, the server only > > > needs to know client's receiving port for sending data. it does not > bother > > > about client's sending port. So I feel there is no need > > > to include sender's port number in the data. > > > > The receiver (UAS) does not need to know the sender's sending port, but > a > > SIP proxy or ALG in the signalling path that needs to tell a middlebox > (e.g. > > NAT or Firewall) to let the RTP flow thru needs the sender's sending > port, > > otherwise it has to say let all packets from any IP Address and port > thru > to > > the sender's (UAC's) receiving port. That would be a very bad thing from > a > > security point of view. > > > > Bob > > d:-) > > > > > > > > Any comments?? > > > > > > Regards > > > Ranjit > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Romel Khan > > > To: 'Christian Huitema' ; Jonathan > > Rosenberg > > > > > > Cc: > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 6:15 PM > > > Subject: RE: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP > > > > > > > > > Service providers may have a need to be able to send RTP streams to a > port > > > and receive RTP streams from a different port (different IP address > and > > UDP > > > port). Jonathan Rosenberg's point would solve that need. But security > is > > > definitely an issue (i.e. if no encryption method such as TLS/SSL has > been > > > decided between sender & receiver). After an entity sends its > receiving > > port > > > through SDP and does not care who sends data to that receiving port is > > most > > > probably not going to be an acceptable solution to many providers who > may > > > not wish to use encryption either. > > > So shouldn't SDP RFC be enhanced to be able to include the sending > port > in > > > case different from the receiving port? > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > Romel Khan > > > Ph: (732)-363-0213, x241 > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Christian Huitema [mailto:huitema@exchange.microsoft.com] > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 5:11 PM > > > To: Jonathan Rosenberg > > > Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com > > > Subject: RE: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP > > > > > > > > > Jonathan, > > > > > > The point were this is likely to be tested is firewall traversal. For > > > security reasons, we are tempted to open a pinhole that specifies a > > > "five tuple" -- source and destination IP address and port, protocol > > > type. This requires being able to predict the source address used by > the > > > other end. According to your rule, we would not be able to do that. > This > > > seems reason enough to reconsider. > > > > > > By the way, the technical argument that you give is weak. It is > possible > > > to bind a socket to an address, which makes address selection possible > > > even on multi-homed machines. > > > > > > -- Christian Huitema > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Jonathan Rosenberg [mailto:jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com] > > > > Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 1:46 PM > > > > To: 'sip@lists.bell-labs.com' > > > > Subject: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP > > > > > > > > Folks, > > > > > > > > There appears to be some continuing confusion about the > interpretation > > > of > > > > the IP address in the SDP of an INVITE or 200 OK. > > > > > > > > When user A sends an INVITE with SDP, and the stream is sendrecv > > > (which is > > > > the default), the IP address in the c line for that stream is the > > > address > > > > where A expects to receive media for that stream. It DOES NOT imply > > > that > > > > the > > > > source address of media that A sends will be equal to that IP > address. > > > The > > > > source IP address is chosen by the underlying OS based on its > routing > > > > tables. As such, a multihomed host has no way to know what the > source > > > > address of its RTP packets will be, until it actually tries to send > > > them. > > > > So, clearly, the IP address in the c line in the INVITE cannot > > > possibly be > > > > the source address, since A doesn't even know yet where it will send > > > > packets. > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, since rfc2543 does not explicitly say that the source > > > > address > > > > won't be the address in the c line, several implementations appear > to > > > have > > > > assumed that it will be. I want to make sure we are clear that this > > > > assumption is false. > > > > > > > > Please, in your implementations, do not make any assumptions about > the > > > > source address of media. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Jonathan R. > > > > > > > > --- > > > > Jonathan D. Rosenberg 72 Eagle Rock Ave. > > > > Chief Scientist First Floor > > > > dynamicsoft East Hanover, NJ 07936 > > > > jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 > > > > http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 > > > > http://www.dynamicsoft.com > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > > > > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > > > > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > > > > To subscribe to it, send mail to > > > > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the > body. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > > > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > > > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > > > To subscribe to it, send mail to > > > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > > > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > > > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > > > To subscribe to it, send mail to > > > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > > > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > > > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > > > To subscribe to it, send mail to > > > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > > To subscribe to it, send mail to > > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 2 12:42:07 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA16764 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 12:42:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C485D44376; Wed, 2 May 2001 12:42:03 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0DFF4434B for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 12:41:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id MAA15108; Wed, 2 May 2001 12:44:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 2 May 2001 12:40:23 -0400 Message-ID: From: Tim Rang To: "'Christian Huitema'" , Medhavi Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 12:40:22 -0400 This would only change the nature of the clipping. Rather than a firewall dropping packets on the floor, your going to have a callee talking into the phone with no RTP packets being produced. From the perspective of the caller, the problem has actually gotten worse by waiting for the ACK because there is extra roundtrip time. Tim Rang > > 4) The only way to guarantee that we don't have clipping of > the initial > packets is to require that no RTP packet be sent until the initial ACK > is received. This is a problem similar to the "resource reservation" > issue studied in the manyfolks draft. Since we want to enable media > immediately after the call acceptation, this means that we have some > kind of two-phase set-up: first set up a path with an initial > three ways > handshake, and then re-invite and start ringing. Doing that is not > compatible with existing implementations, and would require a serious > revisiting of the gatewaying between POTS and SIP. > > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 2 12:53:08 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA17059 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 12:53:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B899F44375; Wed, 2 May 2001 12:53:03 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from df-inet1.exchange.microsoft.com (df-inet1.exchange.microsoft.com [131.107.8.8]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92F3444337 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 12:52:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from df-virus2.platinum.corp.microsoft.com ([172.30.236.33]) by df-inet1.exchange.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2905); Wed, 2 May 2001 09:53:21 -0700 Received: from 172.30.236.11 by df-virus2.platinum.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Wed, 02 May 2001 09:52:31 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Received: from speak.platinum.corp.microsoft.com ([172.30.236.197]) by yuri.dns.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2966); Wed, 2 May 2001 09:52:31 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.4703.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP Thread-Index: AcDTJu7/s6NnWJIJR/mXPRB9pg3pOwAATAmw From: "Christian Huitema" To: "Tim Rang" , "Christian Huitema" , "Medhavi" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 May 2001 16:52:31.0752 (UTC) FILETIME=[47773080:01C0D328] Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 09:52:30 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ietf.org id MAA17059 I should have written, "no RTP packet until a three ways handshake has been completed." The manyfolks draft uses a combination of PRACK and COMET to achieve this result. > -----Original Message----- > From: Tim Rang [mailto:TRang@dynamicsoft.com] > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 9:40 AM > To: 'Christian Huitema'; Medhavi > Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com > Subject: RE: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP > > This would only change the nature of the clipping. Rather than a firewall > dropping packets on the floor, your going to have a callee talking into > the > phone with no RTP packets being produced. From the perspective of the > caller, the problem has actually gotten worse by waiting for the ACK > because > there is extra roundtrip time. > > Tim Rang > > > > > > 4) The only way to guarantee that we don't have clipping of > > the initial > > packets is to require that no RTP packet be sent until the initial ACK > > is received. This is a problem similar to the "resource reservation" > > issue studied in the manyfolks draft. Since we want to enable media > > immediately after the call acceptation, this means that we have some > > kind of two-phase set-up: first set up a path with an initial > > three ways > > handshake, and then re-invite and start ringing. Doing that is not > > compatible with existing implementations, and would require a serious > > revisiting of the gatewaying between POTS and SIP. > > > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 2 18:38:05 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id SAA25509 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 18:38:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D839644337; Wed, 2 May 2001 18:38:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from exchange1.nuera.com (igate.nuera.com [204.216.240.98]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 844BF44336 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 18:37:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by exchange1.nuera.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <27SBDJ5X>; Wed, 2 May 2001 15:37:09 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Fairlie-Cuninghame, Robert" To: "'Christian Huitema'" , Medhavi Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C0D358.6994DC00" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 15:37:04 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0D358.6994DC00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Christian, Good points. I would rephrase (2) to say that early media (in this scenario) does not work unless the UAC assumes symmetric RTP and the UAS provide an SDP in the provisional response. That is, unless the UAS provides an SDP body in the 18x response and the UAC builds a {five-tuple} from it. This was discussed a little last month on the list. I really wonder (ie, reality check): a) How many people are not using symmetric RTP currently (ie, not sending from same source IP/port as you receive). b) How many current (non-sandpit) SIP products really allow RTP media to come from _any_ IP address and port. c) If any one can come up with non-neurotic reasons why it is necessary to send from a different IP address than you send from.[Realistically!] If so, I still believe there are other ways around this specialist scenario. Regards, Robert. -----Original Message----- From: Christian Huitema [mailto:huitema@exchange.microsoft.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 5:35 PM To: Medhavi Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP One of the most interesting outcome of this discussion should be a memo describing the requirements to the MIDCOM protocol, and then a reverse memo describing the requirement imposed by midcom to SIP. As it stands today, we have the following: 1) Conventional firewall logic is that you want to open a pin-hole, not a truck-sized gap. This means that a five-tuple hole is preferred (protocol type, two address and port pairs) over a three-tuple (internal address+port pair, protocol type). 2) Our current specification of early media only works if the client can receive media immediately after sending an INVITE, which requires opening a three-tuple hole. 3) The five-tuple can only be known by the caller after receiving the 200-OK. This creates a race condition between the signaling message and the first RTP packets sent by the callee; should the 200-OK loose the race, the early RTP packets will bang against a closed firewall and be clipped. 4) The only way to guarantee that we don't have clipping of the initial packets is to require that no RTP packet be sent until the initial ACK is received. This is a problem similar to the "resource reservation" issue studied in the manyfolks draft. Since we want to enable media immediately after the call acceptation, this means that we have some kind of two-phase set-up: first set up a path with an initial three ways handshake, and then re-invite and start ringing. Doing that is not compatible with existing implementations, and would require a serious revisiting of the gatewaying between POTS and SIP. 5) Even if we implemented the two-phase handshake, the early-media problem would remain. There is a common telephony practice of sending recorded announcements during call set-up; the source IP address of these announcements is not likely to be the same as the source IP address used after call set-up is complete. It is theoretically possible to use the equivalent of call transfer to switch between multiple source in a controlled fashion, but this introduce a lot of signaling complexity. 6) The source IP address should be allowed to change during a call, e.g. if we want calls to outlive network renumbering. SIP supports that through the re-invite mechanism, but enforcing a five-tuple control introduces either a gap in the call or a race condition between RTP packets with the new source address and the re-INVITE. 7) Even if we changed the call flows, there are doubts that we can actually specify the five tuple, at least for the incoming packets: the source IP address may be unpredictable in the case of multi-homed hosts; the source port may be systematically different from the receive port in some implementation, e.g. parallel processing of the send and receive channels by different software or hardware components. 8) Many implementations already support exchange of RTP level authentication and encryption keys during the SIP call set-up. This provides a level of security that is at least as good as any control of the source address and port: if attackers can manage to read the signaling exchange and get the keys, they can just as well discover the IP addresses and ports, and send forged packets. So, can we convince midcom that we actually need to open holes that are a tiny bit larger than the initial pin-hole? Maybe something like a three-tuple hole on the receive side, and either a three-tuple or a five-tuple on the sending side? -- Christian Huitema > -----Original Message----- > From: Medhavi [mailto:mbhatia@nextone.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 7:00 PM > Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com > Subject: Re: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP > > I dont think that source port/IP address checks provide > any security in this matter. The real security would be using > encryption which may be expensive and hard to get right. > > If a hacker wants to break down a call, or interfere with it, > changing the source address/port of the packets which he sends > to that of the actual source is probably the easiest thing to do. > So if the receiver is concerned about security, he must take other > measures as well, in addition to source check. Once we have them in place, > maybe the source check wont be that necessary, and may in fact become > a problem for protocol design later. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bob Penfield" > To: "Ranjit Avasarala" ; "Romel Khan" > ; "'Christian Huitema'" > ; "Jonathan Rosenberg" > > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 12:47 AM > Subject: Re: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ranjit Avasarala" > > To: "Romel Khan" ; "'Christian Huitema'" > > ; "Jonathan Rosenberg" > > > > Cc: > > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 7:38 PM > > Subject: Re: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP > > > > > > > Hi > > > But why should the receiver know about sender's sending port? Like > if > > > you go back to socket programming, the server only > > > needs to know client's receiving port for sending data. it does not > bother > > > about client's sending port. So I feel there is no need > > > to include sender's port number in the data. > > > > The receiver (UAS) does not need to know the sender's sending port, but > a > > SIP proxy or ALG in the signalling path that needs to tell a middlebox > (e.g. > > NAT or Firewall) to let the RTP flow thru needs the sender's sending > port, > > otherwise it has to say let all packets from any IP Address and port > thru > to > > the sender's (UAC's) receiving port. That would be a very bad thing from > a > > security point of view. > > > > Bob > > d:-) > > > > > > > > Any comments?? > > > > > > Regards > > > Ranjit > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Romel Khan > > > To: 'Christian Huitema' ; Jonathan > > Rosenberg > > > > > > Cc: > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 6:15 PM > > > Subject: RE: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP > > > > > > > > > Service providers may have a need to be able to send RTP streams to a > port > > > and receive RTP streams from a different port (different IP address > and > > UDP > > > port). Jonathan Rosenberg's point would solve that need. But security > is > > > definitely an issue (i.e. if no encryption method such as TLS/SSL has > been > > > decided between sender & receiver). After an entity sends its > receiving > > port > > > through SDP and does not care who sends data to that receiving port is > > most > > > probably not going to be an acceptable solution to many providers who > may > > > not wish to use encryption either. > > > So shouldn't SDP RFC be enhanced to be able to include the sending > port > in > > > case different from the receiving port? > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > Romel Khan > > > Ph: (732)-363-0213, x241 > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Christian Huitema [mailto:huitema@exchange.microsoft.com] > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 5:11 PM > > > To: Jonathan Rosenberg > > > Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com > > > Subject: RE: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP > > > > > > > > > Jonathan, > > > > > > The point were this is likely to be tested is firewall traversal. For > > > security reasons, we are tempted to open a pinhole that specifies a > > > "five tuple" -- source and destination IP address and port, protocol > > > type. This requires being able to predict the source address used by > the > > > other end. According to your rule, we would not be able to do that. > This > > > seems reason enough to reconsider. > > > > > > By the way, the technical argument that you give is weak. It is > possible > > > to bind a socket to an address, which makes address selection possible > > > even on multi-homed machines. > > > > > > -- Christian Huitema > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Jonathan Rosenberg [mailto:jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com] > > > > Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 1:46 PM > > > > To: 'sip@lists.bell-labs.com' > > > > Subject: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP > > > > > > > > Folks, > > > > > > > > There appears to be some continuing confusion about the > interpretation > > > of > > > > the IP address in the SDP of an INVITE or 200 OK. > > > > > > > > When user A sends an INVITE with SDP, and the stream is sendrecv > > > (which is > > > > the default), the IP address in the c line for that stream is the > > > address > > > > where A expects to receive media for that stream. It DOES NOT imply > > > that > > > > the > > > > source address of media that A sends will be equal to that IP > address. > > > The > > > > source IP address is chosen by the underlying OS based on its > routing > > > > tables. As such, a multihomed host has no way to know what the > source > > > > address of its RTP packets will be, until it actually tries to send > > > them. > > > > So, clearly, the IP address in the c line in the INVITE cannot > > > possibly be > > > > the source address, since A doesn't even know yet where it will send > > > > packets. > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, since rfc2543 does not explicitly say that the source > > > > address > > > > won't be the address in the c line, several implementations appear > to > > > have > > > > assumed that it will be. I want to make sure we are clear that this > > > > assumption is false. > > > > > > > > Please, in your implementations, do not make any assumptions about > the > > > > source address of media. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Jonathan R. > > > > > > > > --- > > > > Jonathan D. Rosenberg 72 Eagle Rock Ave. > > > > Chief Scientist First Floor > > > > dynamicsoft East Hanover, NJ 07936 > > > > jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 > > > > http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 > > > > http://www.dynamicsoft.com > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > > > > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > > > > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > > > > To subscribe to it, send mail to > > > > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the > body. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > > > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > > > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > > > To subscribe to it, send mail to > > > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > > > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > > > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > > > To subscribe to it, send mail to > > > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > > > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > > > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > > > To subscribe to it, send mail to > > > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > > To subscribe to it, send mail to > > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0D358.6994DC00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP

Hi Christian,

Good points.

I would rephrase (2) to say that early = media (in this scenario) does not work unless the UAC assumes symmetric = RTP and the UAS provide an SDP in the provisional response. That is, = unless the UAS provides an SDP body in the 18x response and the UAC = builds a {five-tuple} from it. This was discussed a little last month = on the list.

I really wonder (ie, reality = check):

  1. How many people are not = using symmetric RTP currently (ie, not sending from same source IP/port = as you receive).
  2. How many current (non-sandpit) SIP = products really allow RTP media to come from _any_ IP address and = port. 
  3. If any one can come up with = non-neurotic reasons why it is necessary to send from a different IP = address than you send from.[Realistically!] If so, I still believe = there are other ways around this specialist scenario.

Regards,

Robert.

-----Original = Message-----
From:   Christian = Huitema [mailto:huitema@exchange.m= icrosoft.com]
Sent:   Wednesday, May 02, 2001 5:35 PM
To:     Medhavi
Cc:     sip@lists.bell-labs.com
Subject:       = RE: [SIP] meaning of IP address in = SDP

One of the most interesting outcome of = this discussion should be a memo
describing the requirements to the = MIDCOM protocol, and then a reverse
memo describing the requirement = imposed by midcom to SIP. As it stands
today, we have the following:

1) Conventional firewall logic is that = you want to open a pin-hole, not
a truck-sized gap. This means that a = five-tuple hole is preferred
(protocol type, two address and port = pairs) over a three-tuple (internal
address+port pair, protocol = type).

2) Our current specification of early = media only works if the client can
receive media immediately after = sending an INVITE, which requires
opening a three-tuple hole.

3) The five-tuple can only be known by = the caller after receiving the
200-OK. This creates a race condition = between the signaling message and
the first RTP packets sent by the = callee; should the 200-OK loose the
race, the early RTP packets will bang = against a closed firewall and be
clipped.

4) The only way to guarantee that we = don't have clipping of the initial
packets is to require that no RTP = packet be sent until the initial ACK
is received. This is a problem = similar to the "resource reservation"
issue studied in the manyfolks draft. = Since we want to enable media
immediately after the call = acceptation, this means that we have some
kind of two-phase set-up: first set = up a path with an initial three ways
handshake, and then re-invite and = start ringing. Doing that is not
compatible with existing = implementations, and would require a serious
revisiting of the gatewaying between = POTS and SIP.

5) Even if we implemented the = two-phase handshake, the early-media
problem would remain. There is a = common telephony practice of sending
recorded announcements during call = set-up; the source IP address of
these announcements is not likely to = be the same as the source IP
address used after call set-up is = complete. It is theoretically possible
to use the equivalent of call = transfer to switch between multiple source
in a controlled fashion, but this = introduce a lot of signaling
complexity.

6) The source IP address should be = allowed to change during a call, e.g.
if we want calls to outlive network = renumbering. SIP supports that
through the re-invite mechanism, but = enforcing a five-tuple control
introduces either a gap in the call = or a race condition between RTP
packets with the new source address = and the re-INVITE. 
 
7) Even if we changed the call flows, = there are doubts that we can
actually specify the five tuple, at = least for the incoming packets: the
source IP address may be = unpredictable in the case of multi-homed hosts;
the source port may be systematically = different from the receive port in
some implementation, e.g. parallel = processing of the send and receive
channels by different software or = hardware components.

8) Many implementations already = support exchange of RTP level
authentication and encryption keys = during the SIP call set-up. This
provides a level of security that is = at least as good as any control of
the source address and port: if = attackers can manage to read the
signaling exchange and get the keys, = they can just as well discover the
IP addresses and ports, and send = forged packets.

So, can we convince midcom that we = actually need to open holes that are
a tiny bit larger than the initial = pin-hole? Maybe something like a
three-tuple hole on the receive side, = and either a three-tuple or a
five-tuple on the sending = side?

-- Christian Huitema

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Medhavi [mailto:mbhatia@nextone.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 7:00 = PM
> Cc: = sip@lists.bell-labs.com
> Subject: Re: [SIP] meaning of IP = address in SDP
>
> I dont think that source port/IP = address checks provide
> any security in this matter. The = real security would be using
> encryption which may be = expensive and hard to get right.
>
> If a hacker wants to break down = a call, or interfere with it,
> changing the source address/port = of the packets which he sends
> to that of the actual source is = probably the easiest thing to do.
> So if the receiver is concerned = about security, he must take other
> measures as well, in addition to = source check. Once we have them in
place,
> maybe the source check wont be = that necessary, and may in fact become
> a problem for protocol design = later.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message = -----
> From: "Bob Penfield" = <bpenfield@acmepacket.com>
> To: "Ranjit Avasarala" = <ranjitka@email.masconit.com>; "Romel Khan"
> <rkhan@net2phone.com>; = "'Christian Huitema'"
> = <huitema@exchange.microsoft.com>; "Jonathan = Rosenberg"
> = <jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com>
> Cc: = <sip@lists.bell-labs.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 = 12:47 AM
> Subject: Re: [SIP] meaning of IP = address in SDP
>
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message = -----
> > From: "Ranjit = Avasarala" <ranjitka@email.masconit.com>
> > To: "Romel Khan" = <rkhan@net2phone.com>; "'Christian Huitema'"
> > = <huitema@exchange.microsoft.com>; "Jonathan = Rosenberg"
> > = <jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com>
> > Cc: = <sip@lists.bell-labs.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 = 7:38 PM
> > Subject: Re: [SIP] meaning = of IP address in SDP
> >
> >
> > > Hi
> > = >     But why should the receiver know about = sender's sending port?
Like
> if
> > > you go back to socket = programming, the server only
> > > needs to know client's = receiving port for sending data. it does
not
> bother
> > > about client's sending = port. So I feel there is no need
> > > to include sender's = port number in the data.
> >
> > The receiver (UAS) does not = need to know the sender's sending port,
but
> a
> > SIP proxy or ALG in the = signalling path that needs to tell a
middlebox
> (e.g.
> > NAT or Firewall) to let the = RTP flow thru needs the sender's sending
> port,
> > otherwise it has to say let = all packets from any IP Address and port
> thru
> to
> > the sender's (UAC's) = receiving port. That would be a very bad thing
from
> a
> > security point of = view.
> >
> > Bob
> > d:-)
> >
> > >
> > > Any comments??
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Ranjit
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message = -----
> > > From: Romel Khan = <rkhan@net2phone.com>
> > > To: 'Christian = Huitema' <huitema@exchange.microsoft.com>; Jonathan
> > Rosenberg
> > > = <jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com>
> > > Cc: = <sip@lists.bell-labs.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, = 2001 6:15 PM
> > > Subject: RE: [SIP] = meaning of IP address in SDP
> > >
> > >
> > > Service providers may = have a need to be able to send RTP streams
to a
> port
> > > and receive RTP = streams from a different port (different IP
address
> and
> > UDP
> > > port). Jonathan = Rosenberg's point would solve that need. But
security
> is
> > > definitely an issue = (i.e. if no encryption method such as TLS/SSL
has
> been
> > > decided between sender = & receiver). After an entity sends its
> receiving
> > port
> > > through SDP and does = not care who sends data to that receiving
port is
> > most
> > > probably not going to = be an acceptable solution to many providers
who
> may
> > > not wish to use = encryption either.
> > > So shouldn't SDP RFC = be enhanced to be able to include the sending
> port
> in
> > > case different from = the receiving port?
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > > Romel Khan
> > > Ph: (732)-363-0213, = x241
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original = Message-----
> > > From: Christian = Huitema [mailto:huitema@exchange.m= icrosoft.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, = 2001 5:11 PM
> > > To: Jonathan = Rosenberg
> > > Cc: = sip@lists.bell-labs.com
> > > Subject: RE: [SIP] = meaning of IP address in SDP
> > >
> > >
> > > Jonathan,
> > >
> > > The point were this is = likely to be tested is firewall traversal.
For
> > > security reasons, we = are tempted to open a pinhole that specifies
a
> > > "five tuple" = -- source and destination IP address and port,
protocol
> > > type. This requires = being able to predict the source address used
by
> the
> > > other end. According = to your rule, we would not be able to do
that.
> This
> > > seems reason enough to = reconsider.
> > >
> > > By the way, the = technical argument that you give is weak. It is
> possible
> > > to bind a socket to an = address, which makes address selection
possible
> > > even on multi-homed = machines.
> > >
> > > -- Christian = Huitema
> > >
> > > > -----Original = Message-----
> > > > From: Jonathan = Rosenberg [mailto:jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com]
> > > > Sent: Friday, = April 27, 2001 1:46 PM
> > > > To: = 'sip@lists.bell-labs.com'
> > > > Subject: [SIP] = meaning of IP address in SDP
> > > >
> > > > Folks,
> > > >
> > > > There appears to = be some continuing confusion about the
> interpretation
> > > of
> > > > the IP address in = the SDP of an INVITE or 200 OK.
> > > >
> > > > When user A sends = an INVITE with SDP, and the stream is sendrecv
> > > (which is
> > > > the default), the = IP address in the c line for that stream is
the
> > > address
> > > > where A expects = to receive media for that stream. It DOES NOT
imply
> > > that
> > > > the
> > > > source address of = media that A sends will be equal to that IP
> address.
> > > The
> > > > source IP address = is chosen by the underlying OS based on its
> routing
> > > > tables. As such, = a multihomed host has no way to know what the
> source
> > > > address of its = RTP packets will be, until it actually tries to
send
> > > them.
> > > > So, clearly, the = IP address in the c line in the INVITE cannot
> > > possibly be
> > > > the source = address, since A doesn't even know yet where it will
send
> > > > packets.
> > > >
> > > > Unfortunately, = since rfc2543 does not explicitly say that the
source
> > > > address
> > > > won't be the = address in the c line, several implementations
appear
> to
> > > have
> > > > assumed that it = will be. I want to make sure we are clear that
this
> > > > assumption is = false.
> > > >
> > > > Please, in your = implementations, do not make any assumptions
about
> the
> > > > source address of = media.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Jonathan = R.
> > > >
> > > > ---
> > > > Jonathan D. = Rosenberg          &nb= sp;            = 72 Eagle Rock Ave.
> > > > Chief = Scientist          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;      First Floor
> > > > = dynamicsoft          &= nbsp;           &= nbsp;          East = Hanover, NJ
07936
> > > > = jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com        &= nbsp;            = FAX:   (973)
952-5050
> > > > http://www.jdrosen.net    &nbs= p;           &nbs= p;     PHONE: (973)
952-5000
> > > > http://www.dynamicsoft.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > = _______________________________________________
> > > > This list is for = continuing development of the SIP protocol.
> > > > The = sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss
implementation,
> > > > and to receive = advice on understanding existing sip.
> > > > To subscribe to = it, send mail to
> > > > = sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in = the
> body.
> > >
> > > = _______________________________________________
> > > This list is for = continuing development of the SIP protocol.
> > > The sip-implementor's = list is the place to discuss implementation,
> > > and to receive advice = on understanding existing sip.
> > > To subscribe to it, = send mail to
> > > = sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in = the
body.
> > >
> > > = _______________________________________________
> > > This list is for = continuing development of the SIP protocol.
> > > The sip-implementor's = list is the place to discuss implementation,
> > > and to receive advice = on understanding existing sip.
> > > To subscribe to it, = send mail to
> > > = sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in = the
body.
> > >
> > >
> > > = _______________________________________________
> > > This list is for = continuing development of the SIP protocol.
> > > The sip-implementor's = list is the place to discuss implementation,
> > > and to receive advice = on understanding existing sip.
> > > To subscribe to it, = send mail to
> > > = sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in = the
body.
> > >
> >
> >
> > = _______________________________________________
> > This list is for continuing = development of the SIP protocol.
> > The sip-implementor's list = is the place to discuss implementation,
> > and to receive advice on = understanding existing sip.
> > To subscribe to it, send = mail to
> > = sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in = the
body.
> >
>
>
> = _______________________________________________
> This list is for continuing = development of the SIP protocol.
> The sip-implementor's list is = the place to discuss implementation,
> and to receive advice on = understanding existing sip.
> To subscribe to it, send mail = to
> = sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in = the body.

_______________________________________________
This list is for continuing = development of the SIP protocol.
The sip-implementor's list is the = place to discuss implementation,
and to receive advice on = understanding existing sip.
To subscribe to it, send mail to =
sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with = "subscribe" in the body.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C0D358.6994DC00-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 2 19:18:06 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id TAA26079 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 19:18:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D03F44337; Wed, 2 May 2001 19:18:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from imr1.ericy.com (imr1.ericy.com [208.237.135.240]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C45FE44336 for ; Wed, 2 May 2001 19:17:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mr5.exu.ericsson.se (mr5u3.ericy.com [208.237.135.124]) by imr1.ericy.com (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id f42NH2808123; Wed, 2 May 2001 18:17:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from newman.exu.ericsson.se (newman.exu.ericsson.se [138.85.75.179]) by mr5.exu.ericsson.se (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f42NGvh06347; Wed, 2 May 2001 18:16:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from eusadam (pc050163.exu.ericsson.se [138.85.50.163]) by newman.exu.ericsson.se (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA13101; Wed, 2 May 2001 18:16:57 -0500 (CDT) From: adam.roach@ericsson.com Reply-To: To: "'Fairlie-Cuninghame, Robert'" , "'Christian Huitema'" , "Medhavi" Cc: Subject: RE: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP Message-ID: <61D824C63B99D311975E00508B0CC98502251750@eamrcnt717.exu.ericsson.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 18:16:56 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- >From: Fairlie-Cuninghame, Robert [mailto:rfairlie@nuera.com] ... >How many people are not using symmetric RTP currently (ie, not sending from same source >IP/port as you receive). I'm not. It's easier for my application to have separate sending and receiving threads, each managing its own socket. I'll bet there are other implementations doing the same thing. /a _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 3 03:35:05 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id DAA16915 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 03:35:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6881644337; Thu, 3 May 2001 03:35:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from exchange1.nuera.com (igate.nuera.com [204.216.240.98]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCF3A44336 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 03:34:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by exchange1.nuera.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <27SBDKXB>; Thu, 3 May 2001 00:34:03 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Fairlie-Cuninghame, Robert" To: "'adam.roach@ericsson.com'" , "'Christian Huitema'" , Medhavi Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C0D3A3.6B2969A0" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 00:33:59 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0D3A3.6B2969A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" HI Adam Yes, I imagine there might be a few implementations doing this but how many use a completely different IP address? I imagine that most implementations currently ignore the source port. However this "four tuple" is still a lot better for opening holes in firewalls than nothing at all (of course full symmetric RTP is the more preferable). Alternatively, what about adding a SIP option requesting the UA's use symmetric RTP? Require: symmetric-media ? If symmetric media is required to cross a NAT or firewall then the proxy/UA should be able to request this from the UA's in order for the call to be _successfully_ established. [Otherwise you will get that annoying situation where the UA says the call is connected but you can't hear the other person.] Robert. -----Original Message----- From: adam.roach@ericsson.com [mailto:adam.roach@ericsson.com] Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 12:17 AM To: 'Fairlie-Cuninghame, Robert'; 'Christian Huitema'; Medhavi Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP -----Original Message----- >From: Fairlie-Cuninghame, Robert [mailto:rfairlie@nuera.com] ... >How many people are not using symmetric RTP currently (ie, not sending from same source >IP/port as you receive). I'm not. It's easier for my application to have separate sending and receiving threads, each managing its own socket. I'll bet there are other implementations doing the same thing. /a ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0D3A3.6B2969A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP

HI Adam

Yes, I imagine there might be a few = implementations doing this but how many use a completely different IP = address?

I imagine that most implementations = currently ignore the source port. However this "four tuple" is still a = lot better for opening holes in firewalls than nothing at all (of = course full symmetric RTP is the more preferable).

Alternatively, what about adding a SIP = option requesting the UA's use symmetric RTP? Require: symmetric-media = ? If symmetric media is required to cross a NAT or firewall then the = proxy/UA should be able to request this from the UA's in order for the = call to be _successfully_ = established. [Otherwise you will get that annoying situation where the = UA says the call is connected but you can't hear the other = person.]

Robert.





-----Original = Message-----
From:   = adam.roach@ericsson.com [mailto:adam.roach@ericsson.com]
Sent:   Thursday, May 03, 2001 12:17 AM
To:     'Fairlie-Cuninghame, Robert'; 'Christian Huitema'; = Medhavi
Cc:     sip@lists.bell-labs.com
Subject:       = RE: [SIP] meaning of IP address in = SDP

-----Original Message-----
>From: Fairlie-Cuninghame, Robert = [mailto:rfairlie@nuera.com]=
...
>How many people are not using = symmetric RTP currently (ie, not sending from
same source >IP/port as you = receive).

I'm not. It's easier for my = application to have separate sending
and receiving threads, each managing = its own socket.

I'll bet there are other = implementations doing the same thing.

/a

------_=_NextPart_001_01C0D3A3.6B2969A0-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 3 12:15:04 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA28811 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 12:15:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C82164433C; Thu, 3 May 2001 12:15:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from thalia.fm.intel.com (fmfdns02.fm.intel.com [132.233.247.11]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F15844337 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 12:14:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SMTP (fmsmsxvs02-1.fm.intel.com [132.233.42.202]) by thalia.fm.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.36 2001/04/18 16:16:02 root Exp $) with SMTP id QAA20032 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 16:14:03 GMT Received: from fmsmsx29.FM.INTEL.COM ([132.233.48.29]) by 132.233.48.202 (Norton AntiVirus for Internet Email Gateways 1.0) ; Thu, 03 May 2001 16:14:02 0000 (GMT) Received: by fmsmsx29.fm.intel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 3 May 2001 09:14:01 -0700 Message-ID: <4148FEAAD879D311AC5700A0C969E89006E18AC3@orsmsx35.jf.intel.com> From: "Gross, Gerhard" To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C0D3EC.0DD30650" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 09:13:56 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0D3EC.0DD30650 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This solution would also allow policy management on a more stringent level (5-tuple instead of 3-tuple) - a desireable feature. Gery HI Adam Yes, I imagine there might be a few implementations doing this but how many use a completely different IP address? I imagine that most implementations currently ignore the source port. However this "four tuple" is still a lot better for opening holes in firewalls than nothing at all (of course full symmetric RTP is the more preferable). Alternatively, what about adding a SIP option requesting the UA's use symmetric RTP? Require: symmetric-media ? If symmetric media is required to cross a NAT or firewall then the proxy/UA should be able to request this from the UA's in order for the call to be _successfully_ established. [Otherwise you will get that annoying situation where the UA says the call is connected but you can't hear the other person.] Robert. BM__MailData-----Original Message----- From: adam.roach@ericsson.com [ mailto:adam.roach@ericsson.com ] Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 12:17 AM To: 'Fairlie-Cuninghame, Robert'; 'Christian Huitema'; Medhavi Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP -----Original Message----- >From: Fairlie-Cuninghame, Robert [ mailto:rfairlie@nuera.com ] ... >How many people are not using symmetric RTP currently (ie, not sending from same source >IP/port as you receive). I'm not. It's easier for my application to have separate sending and receiving threads, each managing its own socket. I'll bet there are other implementations doing the same thing. /a ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0D3EC.0DD30650 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" RE: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP
This solution would also allow policy management
on a more stringent level (5-tuple instead of
3-tuple) - a desireable feature.
 
Gery
 

HI Adam

Yes, I imagine there might be a few implementations doing this but how many use a completely different IP address?

I imagine that most implementations currently ignore the source port. However this "four tuple" is still a lot better for opening holes in firewalls than nothing at all (of course full symmetric RTP is the more preferable).

Alternatively, what about adding a SIP option requesting the UA's use symmetric RTP? Require: symmetric-media ? If symmetric media is required to cross a NAT or firewall then the proxy/UA should be able to request this from the UA's in order for the call to be _successfully_ established. [Otherwise you will get that annoying situation where the UA says the call is connected but you can't hear the other person.]

Robert.





-----Original Message-----
From:   adam.roach@ericsson.com [mailto:adam.roach@ericsson.com]
Sent:   Thursday, May 03, 2001 12:17 AM
To:     'Fairlie-Cuninghame, Robert'; 'Christian Huitema'; Medhavi
Cc:     sip@lists.bell-labs.com
Subject:        RE: [SIP] meaning of IP address in SDP

-----Original Message-----
>From: Fairlie-Cuninghame, Robert [mailto:rfairlie@nuera.com]
...
>How many people are not using symmetric RTP currently (ie, not sending from
same source >IP/port as you receive).

I'm not. It's easier for my application to have separate sending
and receiving threads, each managing its own socket.

I'll bet there are other implementations doing the same thing.

/a

------_=_NextPart_001_01C0D3EC.0DD30650-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 3 12:16:39 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA28861 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 12:16:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E70604437E; Thu, 3 May 2001 12:15:12 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from smtp1.free.fr (smtp1.free.fr [212.27.32.5]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5E8D44337 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 11:57:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imp1-2.free.fr (imp1-2.free.fr [213.228.0.151]) by smtp1.free.fr (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id RAA01651; Thu, 3 May 2001 17:57:37 +0200 From: patrick.mourot@online.fr Received: (from www-data@localhost) by imp1-2.free.fr (8.11.2/8.11.2/Debian 8.11.2-1) id f43Fva811721; Thu, 3 May 2001 17:57:36 +0200 To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com, sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu Message-ID: <988905456.3af17ff0df266@imp.free.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.3 X-Originating-IP: 194.133.58.200 Subject: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of date Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 17:57:36 +0200 (MEST) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sirs, The following I-D "draft-levy-sip-diversion-01.txt" is now out of date. Could someone give us the future of that I-D: -No longer used -new version soon available, -else ? TIA for your response, Patrick _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 3 14:58:03 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id OAA03743 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 14:58:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0218C4433C; Thu, 3 May 2001 14:58:03 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mail2.intervoice-brite.com (mail2.intervoice-brite.com [204.62.8.15]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B89CC44337 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 14:57:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 172.16.16.64 (gwsmtpsrv.intervoice.com [172.16.16.64]) by mail2.intervoice-brite.com (Build 101 8.9.3/NT-8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA08202 for ; Thu, 03 May 2001 13:59:10 -0500 Received: from INTERVOICE-Message_Server by 172.16.16.64 with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 03 May 2001 13:56:27 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise Internet Agent 5.5.3.1 From: "Bert Culpepper" To: Cc: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Subject: [SIP] RE: Last Call Review - draft-ietf-sip-cc-transfer-04.txt Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 13:46:20 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ietf.org id OAA03743 I've completed my review of the Transfer draft. I did not find any problems. I feel the document is ready to progress. -Bert _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 3 17:32:06 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id RAA10839 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 17:32:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B0C94433C; Thu, 3 May 2001 17:32:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from ix.netcorps.com (ix.netcorps.com [207.1.125.106]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA21444337 for ; Thu, 3 May 2001 17:31:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from indigosw.com (212.68.194.51.brutele.be [212.68.194.51]) by ix.netcorps.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA11793; Thu, 3 May 2001 14:32:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3AF1CE3B.F62685A6@indigosw.com> From: Carmelo Zaccone X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: James Undery Cc: Jonathan Rosenberg , SIP List Subject: Re: [SIP] Registration Authentication References: <3AE9447F.67D87498@ubiquity.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms715A9C9C4DA62CC7950D4363" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 23:31:39 +0200 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms715A9C9C4DA62CC7950D4363 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello everybody, I followed your discussion on how to protect the registration information and I do not totally agree with all that was mentioned. On the one hand, I agree that the digest auth. scheme as it is currently defined, is not protecting enough information! As you all know even then auth-int alternative do not protect any of the header fields at all. Ok, it enable us to protect the registration body such as cpl script for example but like James mentioned it do not protect the contact we register. If you remember, I already proposed, a few weeks ago, a very simple extension to the digest auth-int alternative such as to mimic the pgp protection scheme as proposed so far. With this extension we enable, the sip security framework to provide integrity to sip message sensible parts (set of headers and message body). Unfortunately, I did not receive any feedback after Jonathan Lenox proposed me to move the thread to the main sip list... I also agree with you Jonathan concerning the need of a set of other security mechanisms based on private/public keys. And I do believe that sip security framework's future will be mainly focused on public/private keys framework. nb: What Henning also suggested with the SSL channel is again going into the direction of a keys oriented security framework. However, I do not agree on the idea to depreciate the use of PGP. I think that the security feature that PGP offers us are already of a good interest regarding the path to a strong key based security framework. Just to add some words on the 'man in the middle' scenario discussed in this thread, PGP enables you to completely prevent this from happening as it is impossible to reproduce a valid signature if you do not have access to the private key of the signer. Note that replay attack are also prevented as the digital signature check will fail as soon as a character in the set of protected data is modified. The only thing that a hacker might do, if he wants the signature check to succeed, is to resend the same protected data in his new message. (Finally, PGP is very easy and fast to to implements and it also provide us with encryption opportunity, so I believe that thinking to forget about PGP is not a good idea) This problem of 'strong' security aspect such as authentication, data integrity and even data encryption are not only bind to register, subscribe messages for example are also concerned by this thread. Carmelo -- ........................................................... Indigo Carmelo Zaccone Software Head Software Engineer Indigo Software Group, Inc. 505 Montgomery Street 50 rue Wiertz San Francisco, CA 94111 Brussels, 1050 USA Belgium Phone: 1 (415) 887-3511 Phone : +32 2 230 3594 Fax : 1 (415) 887-3001 Direct: +32 2 235 0955 Fax : +32 2 280 2676 ........................................................... --------------ms715A9C9C4DA62CC7950D4363 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIIH8AYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIH4TCCB90CAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMAsGCSqGSIb3DQEHAaCC BcEwggKlMIICDqADAgECAgMC/TowDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEEBQAwgZQxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlpBMRUw EwYDVQQIEwxXZXN0ZXJuIENhcGUxFDASBgNVBAcTC0R1cmJhbnZpbGxlMQ8wDQYDVQQKEwZU aGF3dGUxHTAbBgNVBAsTFENlcnRpZmljYXRlIFNlcnZpY2VzMSgwJgYDVQQDEx9QZXJzb25h bCBGcmVlbWFpbCBSU0EgMTk5OS45LjE2MB4XDTAwMDcyOTA4NDA0MFoXDTAxMDcyOTA4NDA0 MFowRjEfMB0GA1UEAxMWVGhhd3RlIEZyZWVtYWlsIE1lbWJlcjEjMCEGCSqGSIb3DQEJARYU Y2FybWVsb0BpbmRpZ29zdy5jb20wgZ8wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADgY0AMIGJAoGBAMscjUn0 bWLZVJy6I5bTZnLKm7KzvuQfWngwyWymRpz0dL8MOZILegqPuleEQBAjdkYkkIry836xdt6C 6BI96vzdhYHxkMrs/C6vjOxMS540pewaSe92Qd7iZMxqI0xiCgAdRyvbqe6WzvQq7McKvW+V JjyAyWC9shLIdk3DwbChAgMBAAGjUjBQMB8GA1UdEQQYMBaBFGNhcm1lbG9AaW5kaWdvc3cu Y29tMAwGA1UdEwEB/wQCMAAwHwYDVR0jBBgwFoAUiKvxYINmVfTkWMdGHcBhvSPXw4wwDQYJ KoZIhvcNAQEEBQADgYEASJe+fm1ekU/kOo7wJlkh6YMZsd15ejoVA5aVVpyuR7u0mcsn0OR5 pEICbdJrnjFwN7FkEAhJ6vl2sv77BmhWJlSKT0lqempDWKCFG+7w8VqaomqFB1oQhVQo5TBG Grh9m9ztHDMIVf8bJh6ED/lPrKJUsVM0kReDLCvtnq1mpygwggMUMIICfaADAgECAgELMA0G CSqGSIb3DQEBBAUAMIHRMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTEVMBMGA1UECBMMV2VzdGVybiBDYXBlMRIw EAYDVQQHEwlDYXBlIFRvd24xGjAYBgNVBAoTEVRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nMSgwJgYDVQQL Ex9DZXJ0aWZpY2F0aW9uIFNlcnZpY2VzIERpdmlzaW9uMSQwIgYDVQQDExtUaGF3dGUgUGVy c29uYWwgRnJlZW1haWwgQ0ExKzApBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWHHBlcnNvbmFsLWZyZWVtYWlsQHRo YXd0ZS5jb20wHhcNOTkwOTE2MTQwMTQwWhcNMDEwOTE1MTQwMTQwWjCBlDELMAkGA1UEBhMC WkExFTATBgNVBAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTEUMBIGA1UEBxMLRHVyYmFudmlsbGUxDzANBgNV BAoTBlRoYXd0ZTEdMBsGA1UECxMUQ2VydGlmaWNhdGUgU2VydmljZXMxKDAmBgNVBAMTH1Bl cnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIFJTQSAxOTk5LjkuMTYwgZ8wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADgY0AMIGJ AoGBALNpWpfU0BYLerXFXekhnCNyzRJMS/d+z8f7ynIk9EJSrFeV43theheE5/1yOTiUtOrt ZaeSBl694GX2GbuUeXZMPrlocHWEHPQRdAC8BSxPCQMXMcz0QdRyxqZd4ohEsIsuxE3x8NaF PmzzlZR4kX5A6ZzRjRVXjsJz5TDeRvVPAgMBAAGjNzA1MBIGA1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAw HwYDVR0jBBgwFoAUcknCczTGVfQLdnKBfnf0h+fGsg4wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEEBQADgYEAa8ZZ 6TH66bbssQPY33Jy/pFgSOrGVd178GeOxmFw523CpTfYnbcXKFYFi91cdW/GkZDGbGZxE9AQ fGuRb4bgITYtwdfqsgmtzy1txoNSm/u7/pyHnfy36XSS5FyXrvx+rMoNb3J6Zyxrc/WG+Z31 AG70HQfOnZ6CYynvkwl+Vd4xggH3MIIB8wIBATCBnDCBlDELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExFTATBgNV BAgTDFdlc3Rlcm4gQ2FwZTEUMBIGA1UEBxMLRHVyYmFudmlsbGUxDzANBgNVBAoTBlRoYXd0 ZTEdMBsGA1UECxMUQ2VydGlmaWNhdGUgU2VydmljZXMxKDAmBgNVBAMTH1BlcnNvbmFsIEZy ZWVtYWlsIFJTQSAxOTk5LjkuMTYCAwL9OjAJBgUrDgMCGgUAoIGxMBgGCSqGSIb3DQEJAzEL BgkqhkiG9w0BBwEwHAYJKoZIhvcNAQkFMQ8XDTAxMDUwMzIxMzE0MVowIwYJKoZIhvcNAQkE MRYEFO6QApHF5QMsuE6G77vKT4hhyAiTMFIGCSqGSIb3DQEJDzFFMEMwCgYIKoZIhvcNAwcw DgYIKoZIhvcNAwICAgCAMAcGBSsOAwIHMA0GCCqGSIb3DQMCAgFAMA0GCCqGSIb3DQMCAgEo MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUABIGAHPoc1gc4Qs3TtqFazCNm14x5MnYKSlXgibr+ZrOkVeB4kwHd GMJEiPNnrKF1TaJMpvBGn1UG8K5bjwZeYh1gCCYIx5/wLyF8mTLX/mCdTHDTJLFRkeOxUF/f CbyB0t5V1Mt9ecXPR2Fp8i8lhd/plk6kqaeDNbTgraJsMyKLNpk= --------------ms715A9C9C4DA62CC7950D4363-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 4 09:53:06 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA12484 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 09:53:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDBB944337; Fri, 4 May 2001 09:53:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from cs.columbia.edu (cs.columbia.edu [128.59.16.20]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F70E44337 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 09:52:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bart.cs.columbia.edu (bart.cs.columbia.edu [128.59.19.191]) by cs.columbia.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA00130 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 09:52:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cs.columbia.edu (bart.cs.columbia.edu [128.59.19.191]) by bart.cs.columbia.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA17965; Fri, 4 May 2001 09:52:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3AF2B3F1.D8D3B258@cs.columbia.edu> From: Henning Schulzrinne X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com, sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [SIP] 8th SIP Interoperability Test Event (SIPit) Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 09:51:45 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Information about the 8th SIP Interoperability Test Event (SIPit) is now available at http://www.ubiquity.net/sipit/ The event is being hosted by Ubiquity in Cardiff, UK. As you can see, SIP is taking over city government... Henning _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 4 09:54:48 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA12523 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 09:54:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8D244436F; Fri, 4 May 2001 09:53:13 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from inetserver.mediaphonics.com (inetserver.mediaphonics.com [194.209.206.20]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26D3A44336 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 04:08:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by INETSERVER with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Fri, 4 May 2001 10:16:21 +0200 Message-ID: <8022138F85A1D3119E3900A0240B1A0D135ACF@INETSERVER> From: Catherine Marselli To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C0D472.806A6F00" Subject: [SIP] Java SIP stack Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 10:16:16 +0200 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0D472.806A6F00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Does somebody know where to find SIP stack written in Java (open-source or commercial implementations)? Please answer directly to c.marselli@mediaphonics.com in addition to the group. Thank you in advance for your help, Regards, Catherine Marselli ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0D472.806A6F00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Does somebody know where to find SIP stack written in Java (open-source or commercial implementations)?
 
Please answer directly to c.marselli@mediaphonics.com in addition to the group.
 
Thank you in advance for your help,
 
Regards,
 
Catherine Marselli
------_=_NextPart_001_01C0D472.806A6F00-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 4 12:40:04 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA16404 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 12:40:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAA3F44365; Fri, 4 May 2001 12:40:03 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com [161.44.11.97]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 086BB44336 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 12:39:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dingdong.cisco.com (dingdong.cisco.com [64.102.17.16]) by rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id f44GbOm08586; Fri, 4 May 2001 12:37:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cisco.com (rtp-xdm2.cisco.com [64.102.17.79]) by dingdong.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id AFM14899 (AUTH byerly); Fri, 4 May 2001 12:38:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3AF2DB0F.7E4CC23C@cisco.com> From: Bryan Byerly X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51C-CISCOENG [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: patrick.mourot@online.fr Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com, sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu, byerly@cisco.com Subject: Re: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of date References: <988905456.3af17ff0df266@imp.free.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 12:38:39 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Patrick, There is an updated version of the I-D available. I'll post it to the list shortly. thanks, Bryan patrick.mourot@online.fr wrote: > Sirs, > > The following I-D "draft-levy-sip-diversion-01.txt" is now out of date. > Could someone give us the future of that I-D: > -No longer used > -new version soon available, > -else ? > > TIA for your response, > > Patrick > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 4 16:56:04 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA20486 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 16:56:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9269144337; Fri, 4 May 2001 16:56:03 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from broadsoft.com (broadsoft.com [161.58.239.68]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23D4E44336 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 16:55:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tate ([64.243.180.244]) by broadsoft.com (8.8.8) id QAA21694; Fri, 4 May 2001 16:55:03 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: From: "Brett Tate" To: "SIPbell-labs (E-mail)" Message-ID: <003a01c0d4dc$cbdb62a0$2b01a8c0@broadsoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Subject: [SIP] draft-ietf-sip-session-timer-04: SDP in re-invite response Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 16:57:13 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please mention in draft-ietf-sip-session-timer that the UAS SHOULD reply with non-changed-SDP to a re-INVITE with non-changed-SDP. [Notice that I am only asking for a SHOULD since the draft currently allows the re-INVITE to revive a dead session (even if the sender didn't want that to happen).] I'm requesting it to be explicitly stated in the draft because some products that require others to send re-INVITE session refreshers actually change the origin line in the 200 response SDP without changing anything else in the SDP. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 4 18:17:05 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id SAA21605 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 18:17:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB0FF44337; Fri, 4 May 2001 18:17:03 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from cs.columbia.edu (cs.columbia.edu [128.59.16.20]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFEE044336 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 18:16:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cs.columbia.edu (bart.cs.columbia.edu [128.59.19.191]) by cs.columbia.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA06318 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 18:16:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3AF32A20.215F6758@cs.columbia.edu> From: "Henning G. Schulzrinne" Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Columbia University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [SIP] Dr. Jonathan Rosenberg Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 18:16:00 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I hope the chairs (and Jonathan...) will excuse this non-technical contribution, but I'm pleased to note that Jonathan Rosenberg successfully defended his dissertation in the Electrical Engineering Department at Columbia University today and is now (semi-officially) Dr. Rosenberg. Well deserved. -- Henning Schulzrinne http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~hgs _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 4 21:58:05 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id VAA24539 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 21:58:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3E2544337; Fri, 4 May 2001 21:58:03 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from zrtps06u.us.nortel.com (zrtps06u.nortelnetworks.com [47.140.48.52]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B1A344336 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 21:57:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from qnsgs000.nortel.com (znsgs016.europe.nortel.com [47.255.64.31]) by zrtps06u.us.nortel.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA08316 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 11:37:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from znsgd00t.europe.nortel.com by qnsgs000.nortel.com; Fri, 4 May 2001 09:49:27 +0100 Received: by znsgd00t.europe.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 4 May 2001 09:49:26 +0100 Message-ID: <757032945337D2118E6B0000F8080CC10A468CA4@zwcwd002.europe.nortel.com> From: "Chris Hogg" To: "'sip@lists.bell-labs.com'" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C0D477.1CAE36F0" Subject: [SIP] Early Media using the manyfolks draft Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 09:49:21 +0100 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0D477.1CAE36F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Reposted due to mail problems - apologies to anyone who receives this message twice. Hi everyone, I'd like to present the following for comment by the list: Below is a proposal for handling some aspects of Early Media using both the RFC2543bis-02 and the manyfolks draft for resource reservation. This proposal could be applied in systems that will always use the manyfolks extension to enable resource reservation, QoS, and security. An example application would be the IMS in a 3GPP mobile network. In this example the need for Early Media arises from interworking with the PSTN; specifically for: - delivery of call progress tones and - to prevent clipping of voice on answer. My question is: Is this interpretation of how the manyfolks draft can be used in combination with the RFC2543bis-02 acceptable? Early Media & Manyfolks: - "Manyfolks" discusses how network QoS and security establishment can be made a precondition to sessions initiated by SIP, and described by SDP. - It allows SDP to be sent inside 1xx provisional responses (other than 100) and PRACKs. - Note that from a standards point of view the SDP is not to be used to negotiate media and codecs. The sender of an SDP is required to accept any of the media/codecs it included. - However, if a system level requirement is imposed that a single media type and codec is to be used in both send and receive directions, negotiation to a single choice of media and codec is effectively what happens. Call flow: In this call flow the UAS is acting as the signalling gateway to the PSTN. The details of what is included in the SDP body is omitted here for simplicity, but it is assumed that the necessary parameters are included to ensure that establishment of QoS is mandatory in both directions as a precondition of the call. UAC UAS PSTN --- --- ---- | 1)INVITE[SDP] | ------> | 2)183[SDP] | <-------- | 3)PRACK [SDP] | ------> | 4)200 OK | <-------- | | ======> RESOURCE <===== | 5) RESERVATION | | 6)COMET[SDP]| <-------- | 7)200 OK(COMET) | -------> | | 8)COMET[SDP] | -------> | 9)200 OK(COMET) | 10)IAM <-------- | -------> | 11) 1-WAY MEDIA | 12)BACKWARDS VOICE <====================== |<==================== | | 13)ACM | <-------- 14)183[SDP] | <-------- | 15)PRACK | -------> | | 16)ANM | <-------- 18)200 OK(INVITE) | 17) 2-WAY VOICE <-------- |<====================> | 19) 2-WAY MEDIA | <======================>| | 20)ACK | -------> | [Call now established. Rest of the call flow omitted] SIP RFC2543bis02 draft offers a number of options for event #14. The UAS can send any of the following to the UAC at this stage: 1. 180 with SDP, port=0 means called party alerting, play local ringing 2. 180 with SDP, port>0 means called party alerting, play media 3. 183 with SDP, port=0 means address complete, play local ringing 4. 183 with SDP, port>0 means address complete, play media 5. 180 without SDP means called party alerting, continue existing behaviour 6. 183 without SDP means address complete, continue existing behaviour (In all cases the SDP can only include media agreed earlier by the UAC and UAS.) These options might be used for the following reasons in the example call flow: - 180 indicates that the ACM received included indication that the called subscriber was free (and therefore alerting) - 183 indicates that the ACM received did not indicate the status of the callee - Including SDP with port=0 indicates to the UAS to cease playing any media and synthesise ringing - Including SDP with port>0 indicates to the UAS to cease any local ringing and play any arriving media - Not including an SDP means the UAS should continue its current behaviour regarding ringing or playing media In the call flow above, the SDP in event #14 has a non-zero port number. This has the effect of indicating to the UAC that it should continue to play early media. Alternatively if we assume that in event #2 an SDP was included in the 183 with port>0, the absence of SDP in #14 would have had the same effect; i.e. that any early media arriving at the UAC would have continued to be been played. In this example call flow the caller at the UAC would have listened to early media, carrying the sound of far end ringing from the PSTN between event #13 and #16/17. Additional Issues arising: 1. The use of setting port numbers in SDP to 0 in order to indicate media flow should cease is an IP specific solution and goes against the grain of SIP being independent of the bearer protocol in use. This is a much wider protocol issue. Has any work been done on a generic method for indicating media should stop being played? 2. In flow #14 above, the port number in the SDP may be set to 0 to indicate to the UAC to stop playing any early media that it receives. However, bis02 indicates that any SDP sent from a node refers to the media which that node can receive. Is it acceptable to use the backwards SDP (from UAS to UAC) to indicate to the UAC to stop playing any early media that it is receiving or is there a need for a new indication? Any comments would be most welcome. Many thanks Chris Hogg Strategic Product Planning Nortel Networks Tel: +44 (0)1628-43-1720 email: chogg@nortelnetworks.com ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0D477.1CAE36F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Early Media using the manyfolks draft

Reposted due to mail problems - apologies to anyone = who receives this message twice.

Hi everyone,

I'd like to present the following for comment by the = list:

Below is a proposal for handling some aspects of = Early Media using both the RFC2543bis-02 and the manyfolks draft for = resource reservation. This proposal could be applied in systems that = will always use the manyfolks extension to enable resource reservation, = QoS, and security. An example application would be the IMS in a 3GPP = mobile network. In this example the need for Early Media arises from = interworking with the PSTN; specifically for:

- delivery of call progress tones and
- to prevent clipping of voice on answer.

My question is: Is this interpretation of how the = manyfolks draft can be used in combination with the RFC2543bis-02 = acceptable?

Early Media & Manyfolks:

- "Manyfolks" discusses how network QoS and security = establishment can be made a precondition to sessions initiated by SIP, = and described by SDP.

- It allows SDP to be sent inside 1xx provisional = responses (other than 100) and PRACKs.
- Note that from a standards point of view the SDP = is not to be used to negotiate media and codecs. The sender of an SDP = is required to accept any of the media/codecs it included.

- However, if a system level requirement is imposed = that a single media type and codec is to be used in both send and = receive directions, negotiation to a single choice of media and codec = is effectively what happens.

Call flow:

In this call flow the UAS is acting as the signalling = gateway to the PSTN. The details of what is included in the SDP body is = omitted here for simplicity, but it is assumed that the necessary = parameters are included to ensure that establishment of QoS is = mandatory in both directions as a precondition of the call.


UAC          =           = UAS           &nb= sp;     PSTN
---          =           = ---           &nb= sp;     ----
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp; |
1)INVITE[SDP]        &n= bsp;  |
------>         = ;        |
          &nb= sp;  2)183[SDP] |
          &nb= sp;   <-------- |
3)PRACK = [SDP]           = |
------>         = ;        |
          &nb= sp;   4)200 OK  |
          &nb= sp;   <-------- |
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp; |
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> RESOURCE <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D = |
    5) = RESERVATION      |
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp; |
          &nb= sp; 6)COMET[SDP]|
          &nb= sp;   <-------- |
7)200 = OK(COMET)         |
------->        &nbs= p;       |
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp; |
8)COMET[SDP]        &nb= sp;   |
------->        &nbs= p;       |
        9)200 = OK(COMET) | 10)IAM
          &nb= sp;   <-------- | ------->
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp; |
  11) 1-WAY = MEDIA       | 12)BACKWARDS VOICE
<=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D = |<=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp; |
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp; = |            = ;   13)ACM
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp; = |            = ; <--------
          &nb= sp; 14)183[SDP] |
          &nb= sp;   <-------- |
15)PRACK         &= nbsp;      |
------->        &nbs= p;       |
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp; = |            = ;    16)ANM
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp; = |            = ; <--------
      18)200 OK(INVITE) = |   17) 2-WAY VOICE
          &nb= sp;   <-------- = |<=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D>
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp; |
  19) 2-WAY = MEDIA       |
<=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D>|
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp; |
20)ACK         &nb= sp;        |
------->        &nbs= p;       |

[Call now established. Rest of the call flow = omitted]


SIP RFC2543bis02 draft offers a number of options for = event #14. The UAS can send any of the following to the UAC at this = stage:

1. 180 with SDP, port=3D0 means called party = alerting, play local ringing
2. 180 with SDP, port>0 means called party = alerting, play media
3. 183 with SDP, port=3D0 means address complete, = play local ringing
4. 183 with SDP, port>0 means address complete, = play media
5. 180 without SDP means called party alerting, = continue existing behaviour
6. 183 without SDP means address complete, continue = existing behaviour
(In all cases the SDP can only include media agreed = earlier by the UAC and UAS.)

These options might be used for the following reasons = in the example call flow:
- 180 indicates that the ACM received included = indication that the called subscriber was free (and therefore = alerting)
- 183 indicates that the ACM received did not = indicate the status of the callee
- Including SDP with port=3D0 indicates to the UAS = to cease playing any media and synthesise ringing
- Including SDP with port>0 indicates to the UAS = to cease any local ringing and play any arriving media
- Not including an SDP means the UAS should continue = its current behaviour regarding ringing or playing media

In the call flow above, the SDP in event #14 has a = non-zero port number. This has the effect of indicating to the UAC that = it should continue to play early media. Alternatively if we assume that = in event #2 an SDP was included in the 183 with port>0, the absence = of SDP in #14 would have had the same effect; i.e. that any early media = arriving at the UAC would have continued to be been played.

In this example call flow the caller at the UAC would = have listened to early media, carrying the sound of far end ringing = from the PSTN between event #13 and #16/17.

Additional Issues arising:

1. The use of setting port numbers in SDP to 0 in = order to indicate media flow should cease is an IP specific solution = and goes against the grain of SIP being independent of the bearer = protocol in use. This is a much wider protocol issue.  Has any = work been done on a generic method for indicating media should stop = being played?

2. In flow #14 above, the port number in the SDP may = be set to 0 to indicate to the UAC to stop playing any early media that = it receives.  However, bis02 indicates that any SDP sent from a = node refers to the media which that node can receive.  Is it = acceptable to use the backwards SDP (from UAS to UAC) to indicate to = the UAC to stop playing any early media that it is receiving or is = there a need for a new indication?

Any comments would be most welcome.

Many thanks

Chris Hogg
Strategic Product Planning
Nortel Networks
Tel: +44 (0)1628-43-1720
email: chogg@nortelnetworks.com


------_=_NextPart_001_01C0D477.1CAE36F0-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Sun May 6 20:38:04 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id UAA15431 for ; Sun, 6 May 2001 20:38:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51E6D4433B; Sun, 6 May 2001 20:38:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@share.research.bell-labs.com Received: from crufty.research.bell-labs.com (crufty.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.49]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 013ED44386 for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 18:34:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([135.104.27.211]) by crufty; Fri May 4 18:31:28 EDT 2001 Received: by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) id 3B10A44384; Fri, 4 May 2001 18:20:44 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mxmail1.xl.lucent.com (mail.xl.lucent.com [135.119.36.104]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDE884437D for ; Fri, 4 May 2001 18:20:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mxmail4.xl.com (mxmail4.xl.lucent.com [135.119.40.130]) by mxmail1.xl.lucent.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id G0XNN3WW; Fri, 4 May 2001 18:10:01 -0400 Received: by mxmail4.xl.lucent.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <14LXMNSM>; Fri, 4 May 2001 17:20:04 -0500 Message-ID: <0A30D51EE3FED41189CD00508B323A8C094218@mxmail4.xl.lucent.com> From: Dean Huang To: "'Henning G. Schulzrinne'" , sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] Dr. Jonathan Rosenberg MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 17:19:57 -0500 Congratulation To Rosenberg!!! -----Original Message----- From: Henning G. Schulzrinne [mailto:hgs@cs.columbia.edu] Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 3:16 PM To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: [SIP] Dr. Jonathan Rosenberg I hope the chairs (and Jonathan...) will excuse this non-technical contribution, but I'm pleased to note that Jonathan Rosenberg successfully defended his dissertation in the Electrical Engineering Department at Columbia University today and is now (semi-officially) Dr. Rosenberg. Well deserved. -- Henning Schulzrinne http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~hgs _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Sun May 6 22:33:04 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id WAA17986 for ; Sun, 6 May 2001 22:33:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5968E44337; Sun, 6 May 2001 22:33:03 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from cs.columbia.edu (cs.columbia.edu [128.59.16.20]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBE4544336 for ; Sun, 6 May 2001 22:32:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bart.cs.columbia.edu (bart.cs.columbia.edu [128.59.19.191]) by cs.columbia.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA00639 for ; Sun, 6 May 2001 22:32:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from hgs@localhost) by bart.cs.columbia.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) id WAA02416; Sun, 6 May 2001 22:32:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Henning Schulzrinne Message-Id: <200105070232.WAA02416@bart.cs.columbia.edu> To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com List: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: [SIP] Call for Participation: NOSSDAV 2001 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 22:32:53 -0400 (EDT) CALL FOR PARTICIPATION The 11th International Workshop on Network and Operating Systems Support for Digital Audio and Video (NOSSDAV 2001) Sponsored by the Association for Computing Machinery In cooperation with USENIX, ACM SIGCOMM, ACM SIGMM, ACM SIGOPS Technically cosponsored by the IEEE Communications Society (pending) June 25-26, 2001 Danfords on the Sound, Port Jefferson, New York http://www.nossdav.org/2001 The 11th International Workshop on Network and Operating Systems Support for Digital Audio and Video (NOSSDAV 2001) will bring together participants from academia and industry to present and discuss new ideas and future directions in networking and operating system support for multimedia. Exponential improvements in networking bandwidth, cost, and ubiquity coupled with the growing availability and use of streaming media content pose new networking and operating system research opportunities and challenges at the global systems level. Papers on streaming media, quality of service, multicast, mobile multimedia, Internet telephony, and collaboration will be presented. Peter Danzig will deliver a keynote address on "Ideas for Next Generation Content Delivery". Important Dates: ================ Early registration deadline: May 19, 2001 Registration deadline: June 15, 2001 Workshop: June 25-27, 2001 NOSSDAV 2001 Organizing Committee: ================================= Chairs: Jason Nieh, Columbia University Henning Schulzrinne, Columbia University Kevin Almeroth, UCSB Peter Danzig, Akamai Christophe Diot, Sprint Advanced Technology Labs Wu-chi Feng, Ohio State University Anoop Gupta, Microsoft Research Chuck Kalmanek, AT&T Research Sneha Kasera, Lucent Technologies Duane Northcutt, Sun Microsystems Larry Peterson, Princeton University Dan Rubenstein, Columbia University Larry Rowe, University of California, Berkeley Brian Schmidt, Sun Microsystems Doug Shepherd, Lancaster University Chuck Yoo, Korea University Zhi-Li Zhang, University of Minnesota _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Mon May 7 13:51:05 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA18044 for ; Mon, 7 May 2001 13:51:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 920864433E; Mon, 7 May 2001 13:51:03 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from bur-po1.bbn.com (bur-po1.bbn.com [171.78.208.134]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FAB744336 for ; Mon, 7 May 2001 13:50:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dmjones (dhcp112-223.genuity.com [171.78.112.223]) by bur-po1.bbn.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA06557 for ; Mon, 7 May 2001 13:50:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Recipient: From: "Dan Jones" To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Subject: [SIP] SIP & NAT Interoperability Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 13:50:05 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I've been looking in to some of the issues around supporting SIP behind a NAT device, and would like to know if there are any formal discussions on this list on the matter. Can't find any in the archives. If not - would like to start the conversation: There is the beginning of a trend I see in at least some vendors' SIP clients to allow one to put the outside NAT ip address in the SIP headers (contact, from, callID, eg), so the receiving station knows to whom to reply. While this works, it also breaks SIP connectivity if you're trying to contact another SIP UA inside your firewall. The simple fix seems to be an algorithm on the SIP UA that says: If pkt destined for inside NAT address { leave SIP headers alone else replace contact address with outside NAT address is contact, from, callID, etc fields } Has anyone looked at this, or know of any efforts to standardize a fix? /dan _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Mon May 7 13:57:04 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA18300 for ; Mon, 7 May 2001 13:57:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F34D344348; Mon, 7 May 2001 13:57:03 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from illustrious.cnchost.com (illustrious.concentric.net [207.155.252.7]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B809E4433E for ; Mon, 7 May 2001 13:56:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from medhavi ([207.113.13.1]) by illustrious.cnchost.com id NAA23016; Mon, 7 May 2001 13:56:51 -0400 (EDT) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.11] Message-ID: <002f01c0d71e$da940ba0$1fe4b4cc@nextone.com> From: "Medhavi Bhatia" To: References: Subject: Re: [SIP] SIP & NAT Interoperability MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 13:54:56 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Several pieces of work: draft-davies-fw-nat-traversal-00.txt draft-rosenberg-sip-entfw-01.txt there are other references inside these drafts. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Jones" To: Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 1:50 PM Subject: [SIP] SIP & NAT Interoperability > Hi, > > I've been looking in to some of the issues around supporting SIP behind a > NAT device, and would like to know if there are any formal discussions on > this list on the matter. Can't find any in the archives. If not - would > like to start the conversation: > > There is the beginning of a trend I see in at least some vendors' SIP > clients to allow one to put the outside NAT ip address in the SIP headers > (contact, from, callID, eg), so the receiving station knows to whom to > reply. While this works, it also breaks SIP connectivity if you're trying > to contact another SIP UA inside your firewall. The simple fix seems to be > an algorithm on the SIP UA that says: > > If pkt destined for inside NAT address > { leave SIP headers alone > > else > > replace contact address with outside NAT address is contact, from, callID, > etc fields > } > > Has anyone looked at this, or know of any efforts to standardize a fix? > > /dan > > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Mon May 7 15:22:04 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id PAA19826 for ; Mon, 7 May 2001 15:22:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84B114433E; Mon, 7 May 2001 15:22:03 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from imr2.ericy.com (unknown [12.34.240.68]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2C2544336 for ; Mon, 7 May 2001 15:21:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mr7.exu.ericsson.se (mr7att.ericy.com [138.85.92.15]) by imr2.ericy.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f47JKC827116; Mon, 7 May 2001 14:20:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from newman.exu.ericsson.se (newman.exu.ericsson.se [138.85.75.179]) by mr7.exu.ericsson.se (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f47JKCF21773; Mon, 7 May 2001 14:20:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from eusadam (pc050163.exu.ericsson.se [138.85.50.163]) by newman.exu.ericsson.se (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA03615; Mon, 7 May 2001 14:20:12 -0500 (CDT) From: adam.roach@ericsson.com Reply-To: To: "'Chris Hogg'" , Subject: RE: [SIP] Early Media using the manyfolks draft Message-ID: <61D824C63B99D311975E00508B0CC9850225176E@eamrcnt717.exu.ericsson.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <757032945337D2118E6B0000F8080CC10A468CA4@zwcwd002.europe.nortel.com> Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 14:20:09 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Also reposted, due to the fact that some parties (or, at least Chris) apparently didn't receive it the first time: This is a good question. As we discovered at the interrim meeting in Plano, there are a lot of extremely complicated issues surrounding it. In the interest of keeping the majority of us who can still claim sanity sane, I'd *strongly* suggest postponing discussion of this issue on the list until we blow through a few more of our work items (http://www.greycouncil.com/sipwg/draftstatus/lc_calendar.html). /a -----Original Message----- From: Chris Hogg [mailto:chogg@nortelnetworks.com] Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 3:49 AM To: 'sip@lists.bell-labs.com' Subject: [SIP] Early Media using the manyfolks draft Reposted due to mail problems - apologies to anyone who receives this message twice. Hi everyone, I'd like to present the following for comment by the list: Below is a proposal for handling some aspects of Early Media using both the RFC2543bis-02 and the manyfolks draft for resource reservation. This proposal could be applied in systems that will always use the manyfolks extension to enable resource reservation, QoS, and security. An example application would be the IMS in a 3GPP mobile network. In this example the need for Early Media arises from interworking with the PSTN; specifically for: - delivery of call progress tones and - to prevent clipping of voice on answer. My question is: Is this interpretation of how the manyfolks draft can be used in combination with the RFC2543bis-02 acceptable? Early Media & Manyfolks: - "Manyfolks" discusses how network QoS and security establishment can be made a precondition to sessions initiated by SIP, and described by SDP. - It allows SDP to be sent inside 1xx provisional responses (other than 100) and PRACKs. - Note that from a standards point of view the SDP is not to be used to negotiate media and codecs. The sender of an SDP is required to accept any of the media/codecs it included. - However, if a system level requirement is imposed that a single media type and codec is to be used in both send and receive directions, negotiation to a single choice of media and codec is effectively what happens. Call flow: In this call flow the UAS is acting as the signalling gateway to the PSTN. The details of what is included in the SDP body is omitted here for simplicity, but it is assumed that the necessary parameters are included to ensure that establishment of QoS is mandatory in both directions as a precondition of the call. UAC UAS PSTN --- --- ---- | 1)INVITE[SDP] | ------> | 2)183[SDP] | <-------- | 3)PRACK [SDP] | ------> | 4)200 OK | <-------- | | ======> RESOURCE <===== | 5) RESERVATION | | 6)COMET[SDP]| <-------- | 7)200 OK(COMET) | -------> | | 8)COMET[SDP] | -------> | 9)200 OK(COMET) | 10)IAM <-------- | -------> | 11) 1-WAY MEDIA | 12)BACKWARDS VOICE <====================== |<==================== | | 13)ACM | <-------- 14)183[SDP] | <-------- | 15)PRACK | -------> | | 16)ANM | <-------- 18)200 OK(INVITE) | 17) 2-WAY VOICE <-------- |<====================> | 19) 2-WAY MEDIA | <======================>| | 20)ACK | -------> | [Call now established. Rest of the call flow omitted] SIP RFC2543bis02 draft offers a number of options for event #14. The UAS can send any of the following to the UAC at this stage: 1. 180 with SDP, port=0 means called party alerting, play local ringing 2. 180 with SDP, port>0 means called party alerting, play media 3. 183 with SDP, port=0 means address complete, play local ringing 4. 183 with SDP, port>0 means address complete, play media 5. 180 without SDP means called party alerting, continue existing behaviour 6. 183 without SDP means address complete, continue existing behaviour (In all cases the SDP can only include media agreed earlier by the UAC and UAS.) These options might be used for the following reasons in the example call flow: - 180 indicates that the ACM received included indication that the called subscriber was free (and therefore alerting) - 183 indicates that the ACM received did not indicate the status of the callee - Including SDP with port=0 indicates to the UAS to cease playing any media and synthesise ringing - Including SDP with port>0 indicates to the UAS to cease any local ringing and play any arriving media - Not including an SDP means the UAS should continue its current behaviour regarding ringing or playing media In the call flow above, the SDP in event #14 has a non-zero port number. This has the effect of indicating to the UAC that it should continue to play early media. Alternatively if we assume that in event #2 an SDP was included in the 183 with port>0, the absence of SDP in #14 would have had the same effect; i.e. that any early media arriving at the UAC would have continued to be been played. In this example call flow the caller at the UAC would have listened to early media, carrying the sound of far end ringing from the PSTN between event #13 and #16/17. Additional Issues arising: 1. The use of setting port numbers in SDP to 0 in order to indicate media flow should cease is an IP specific solution and goes against the grain of SIP being independent of the bearer protocol in use. This is a much wider protocol issue. Has any work been done on a generic method for indicating media should stop being played? 2. In flow #14 above, the port number in the SDP may be set to 0 to indicate to the UAC to stop playing any early media that it receives. However, bis02 indicates that any SDP sent from a node refers to the media which that node can receive. Is it acceptable to use the backwards SDP (from UAS to UAC) to indicate to the UAC to stop playing any early media that it is receiving or is there a need for a new indication? Any comments would be most welcome. Many thanks Chris Hogg Strategic Product Planning Nortel Networks Tel: +44 (0)1628-43-1720 email: chogg@nortelnetworks.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Mon May 7 15:55:04 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id PAA20864 for ; Mon, 7 May 2001 15:55:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE4AA44352; Mon, 7 May 2001 15:55:03 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CF484433E for ; Mon, 7 May 2001 15:54:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id PAA11361; Mon, 7 May 2001 15:58:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 7 May 2001 15:54:21 -0400 Message-ID: From: Igor Slepchin To: "'Bryan Byerly'" , patrick.mourot@online.fr Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com, sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu Subject: RE: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of date MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 15:54:17 -0400 A motivation section and examples of functionality that require this extension are conspicuously lacking in the current draft. Adding them may help me understand why this draft is needed in the first place. --- Igor Slepchin > -----Original Message----- > From: Bryan Byerly [mailto:byerly@cisco.com] > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 12:39 PM > To: patrick.mourot@online.fr > Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com; sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu; > byerly@cisco.com > Subject: Re: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of date > > > Hi Patrick, > > There is an updated version of the I-D available. I'll post it to the > list shortly. > > thanks, > Bryan > > patrick.mourot@online.fr wrote: > > > Sirs, > > > > The following I-D "draft-levy-sip-diversion-01.txt" is now > out of date. > > Could someone give us the future of that I-D: > > -No longer used > > -new version soon available, > > -else ? > > > > TIA for your response, > > > > Patrick > > > > _______________________________________________ > > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > > To subscribe to it, send mail to > > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" > in the body. > > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Mon May 7 18:41:03 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id SAA23650 for ; Mon, 7 May 2001 18:41:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28D9D4433B; Mon, 7 May 2001 18:41:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com [161.44.11.97]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60CF544336 for ; Mon, 7 May 2001 18:40:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dingdong.cisco.com (dingdong.cisco.com [64.102.17.16]) by rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id f47Md8m03787; Mon, 7 May 2001 18:39:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cisco.com (rtp-xdm2.cisco.com [64.102.17.79]) by dingdong.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id AFU12003 (AUTH byerly); Mon, 7 May 2001 18:40:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3AF7245B.A6908D13@cisco.com> From: Bryan Byerly X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51C-CISCOENG [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Igor Slepchin Cc: patrick.mourot@online.fr, sip@lists.bell-labs.com, sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu, stlevy@cisco.com Subject: Re: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of date References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 18:40:27 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Igor, As I presented at the December 2000 IETF, the I-D is motivated by several PSTN/SIP internetworking scenarios including: Multiple diversions. Diverting a call to an E.164 service. Configuration issues (moving policy configuration to edges (UAs)) An ultimately called UAS can use the Diversion headers to implement a local policy for his particular service. For example, to answer the question: Into which voice mailbox should a message be placed? It's important to understand that this is a policy decision; and as such should be configurable at the ultimate edge of the voice network (i.e. move the smarts to the edges). The examples in section 9 do cover some of these issues. Because there are some typos in the draft that need to get published, we'll go ahead and release the -02 version. However, we'll work on improving the motivation scenarios for an -03 version. thanks for your help, Bryan Bryan J. Byerly byerly@cisco.com Igor Slepchin wrote: > A motivation section and examples of functionality that require this > extension are conspicuously lacking in the current draft. Adding them may > help me understand why this draft is needed in the first place. > > --- > Igor Slepchin > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bryan Byerly [mailto:byerly@cisco.com] > > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 12:39 PM > > To: patrick.mourot@online.fr > > Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com; sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu; > > byerly@cisco.com > > Subject: Re: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of date > > > > > > Hi Patrick, > > > > There is an updated version of the I-D available. I'll post it to the > > list shortly. > > > > thanks, > > Bryan > > > > patrick.mourot@online.fr wrote: > > > > > Sirs, > > > > > > The following I-D "draft-levy-sip-diversion-01.txt" is now > > out of date. > > > Could someone give us the future of that I-D: > > > -No longer used > > > -new version soon available, > > > -else ? > > > > > > TIA for your response, > > > > > > Patrick > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > > > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > > > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > > > To subscribe to it, send mail to > > > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" > > in the body. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > > To subscribe to it, send mail to > > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 8 05:06:06 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id FAA17576 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 05:06:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FA864433B; Tue, 8 May 2001 05:06:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from albatross-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se (albatross-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [194.237.142.116]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CAD844336 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 05:05:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from esealnt462.al.sw.ericsson.se (ESEALNT462.al.sw.ericsson.se [153.88.251.62]) by albatross.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.11.0/8.11.0/WIREfire-1.3) with SMTP id f4895kN21396 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:05:46 +0200 (MEST) Received: FROM esealnt400.al.sw.ericsson.se BY esealnt462.al.sw.ericsson.se ; Tue May 08 11:05:45 2001 +0200 Received: by esealnt400 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:05:45 +0200 Message-ID: From: "Michael Junge-Pedersen (QRA)" To: "'sip@lists.bell-labs.com'" Subject: RE: [SIP] 3gpp--controoler????? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 11:05:36 +0200 Hi. I think that there is one thing that should be stated here very clearly about the Controller/B2B-UA. That is a session setup between users1 and user2 using the Controller will have two different call-id's compared to an ordinary session setup directly from user1 to user2, which would hold the very same call-id. This provides the ''controller'' with the ability to manipulate each call-leg separately at a later state like after an external timer expires in the middle of an established session. With kind regards, Michael Junge Pedersen. -----Original Message----- From: Brian Gracely [mailto:bgracely@cisco.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 11:12 PM To: kanumuri sreeram; Jonathan Rosenberg; 'Drage, Keith (Keith)'; 'Mayank Sharma'; Chen, Xin (Xin); 'sip@lists.bell-labs.com' Subject: Re: [SIP] 3gpp--controoler????? the 3pcc controller can also be thought of as a back-to-back UA.....ie. 2 UAs in the same logical entity. It terminates the signaling, but the media goes between points A & B. it will need to be call-stateful, like a UA. BG At 12:18 PM 04/25/2001 -0700, kanumuri sreeram wrote: hi all, i have a douth regarding the 3pcc in sip. i am clear that this is possible with the help of the controller. like it is what which will take care of the signalling and the medai will be transfer will be taking place among them selves "true" i.e A-------------CONTROLLER---------------------------B direct media transfer =================================== ok but i am not claer about this entity controller can any one make me clear likw what is ? if this is a different entity it should also be showm in the architecture of sip like sipua,proxy,rediect,CONTROLLER.... so i am clear with me douth can anu one help me sreeram Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 8 09:11:05 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA20585 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 09:11:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E9F34433B; Tue, 8 May 2001 09:11:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com [161.44.11.97]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F74B44336 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 09:10:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dingdong.cisco.com (dingdong.cisco.com [64.102.17.16]) by rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id f48D8fm23447; Tue, 8 May 2001 09:08:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from slevy-pc (dhcp-64-102-97-125.cisco.com [64.102.97.125]) by dingdong.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with SMTP id AFU19594; Tue, 8 May 2001 09:09:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.1.20010508090717.017d6bf0@dingdong.cisco.com> X-Sender: stlevy@dingdong.cisco.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 To: Igor Slepchin , "'Bryan Byerly'" , patrick.mourot@online.fr From: Steve Levy Subject: RE: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of date Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com, sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 09:11:10 -0700 Hi Igor, It may help you if you get to take a look at some of the presentations from the SIP Summit held last week in Dallas. The diversion header was mentioned by a number of the presenters as a way of assisting in network interoperability and helping enable enhanced services. Steve At 03:54 PM 5/7/01 -0400, Igor Slepchin wrote: >A motivation section and examples of functionality that require this >extension are conspicuously lacking in the current draft. Adding them may >help me understand why this draft is needed in the first place. > >--- >Igor Slepchin > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Bryan Byerly [mailto:byerly@cisco.com] >> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 12:39 PM >> To: patrick.mourot@online.fr >> Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com; sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu; >> byerly@cisco.com >> Subject: Re: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of date >> >> >> Hi Patrick, >> >> There is an updated version of the I-D available. I'll post it to the >> list shortly. >> >> thanks, >> Bryan >> >> patrick.mourot@online.fr wrote: >> >> > Sirs, >> > >> > The following I-D "draft-levy-sip-diversion-01.txt" is now >> out of date. >> > Could someone give us the future of that I-D: >> > -No longer used >> > -new version soon available, >> > -else ? >> > >> > TIA for your response, >> > >> > Patrick >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. >> > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, >> > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. >> > To subscribe to it, send mail to >> > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" >> in the body. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. >> The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, >> and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. >> To subscribe to it, send mail to >> sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. >> > >_______________________________________________ >This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. >The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, >and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. >To subscribe to it, send mail to >sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 8 09:29:05 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA21516 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 09:29:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3841B4435A; Tue, 8 May 2001 09:29:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from znsgs0ja.nortelnetworks.com (h44s128a211n47.user.nortelnetworks.com [47.211.128.44]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 6A2FE44336 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 09:28:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from qnsgs000.nortel.com by znsgs0ja.nortelnetworks.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA29181; Tue, 8 May 2001 14:28:33 +0100 Received: from znsgd00t.europe.nortel.com by qnsgs000.nortel.com; Tue, 8 May 2001 14:28:21 +0100 Received: by znsgd00t.europe.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 8 May 2001 14:28:20 +0100 Message-ID: From: "Mark Watson" To: "'Steve Levy'" Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of date MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C0D7C2.C19CCD40" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 14:28:23 +0100 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0D7C2.C19CCD40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Any chance someone can point us at the presentations mentioned below ? I thought that the Diversion draft had been dropped - the list at http://www.softarmor.com/sipwg/draftstatus/sip-draftstatus.html indicates 'General dissent at IETF49'. Nevertheless, I would agree with a requirement to deal with the case where calls encounter diversion before entering the SIP network (i.e. in another network). Calls which encounter diversion within the SIP network will use the existing SIP mechanisms - redirect, REFER etc., but if the diversion happens before the SIP network ... Provision of any identity information associated with the diverting party, though, would need to meet the same privacy and authenticity requirements as any other identity information as described in the privacy draft. Any future Diversion proposals should look at using the capabilities defined there, rather than adding a new header for this information. Regards, Mark Watson Nortel Networks > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Levy [mailto:stlevy@cisco.com] > Sent: 08 May 2001 17:11 > To: Igor Slepchin; 'Bryan Byerly'; patrick.mourot@online.fr > Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com; sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu > Subject: RE: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of date > > > Hi Igor, > > It may help you if you get to take a look at some of the > presentations from > the SIP Summit held last week in Dallas. The diversion header > was mentioned > by a number of the presenters as a way of assisting in network > interoperability and helping enable enhanced services. > > Steve > > At 03:54 PM 5/7/01 -0400, Igor Slepchin wrote: > >A motivation section and examples of functionality that require this > >extension are conspicuously lacking in the current draft. > Adding them may > >help me understand why this draft is needed in the first place. > > > >--- > >Igor Slepchin > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Bryan Byerly [mailto:byerly@cisco.com] > >> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 12:39 PM > >> To: patrick.mourot@online.fr > >> Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com; sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu; > >> byerly@cisco.com > >> Subject: Re: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of date > >> > >> > >> Hi Patrick, > >> > >> There is an updated version of the I-D available. I'll > post it to the > >> list shortly. > >> > >> thanks, > >> Bryan > >> > >> patrick.mourot@online.fr wrote: > >> > >> > Sirs, > >> > > >> > The following I-D "draft-levy-sip-diversion-01.txt" is now > >> out of date. > >> > Could someone give us the future of that I-D: > >> > -No longer used > >> > -new version soon available, > >> > -else ? > >> > > >> > TIA for your response, > >> > > >> > Patrick > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > >> > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss > implementation, > >> > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > >> > To subscribe to it, send mail to > >> > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" > >> in the body. > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > >> The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > >> and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > >> To subscribe to it, send mail to > >> sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" > in the body. > >> > > > >_______________________________________________ > >This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > >The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > >and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > >To subscribe to it, send mail to > >sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in > the body. > > > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0D7C2.C19CCD40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of date

Any chance someone can point us at the presentations = mentioned below ?

I thought that the Diversion draft had been dropped - = the list at http://www.softarmor.com/sipwg/draftstatus/sip-draftst= atus.html indicates 'General dissent at IETF49'.

Nevertheless, I would agree with a requirement to = deal with the case where calls encounter diversion before entering the = SIP network (i.e. in another network). Calls which encounter diversion = within the SIP network will use the existing SIP mechanisms - redirect, = REFER etc., but if the diversion happens before the SIP network = ...

Provision of any identity information associated with = the diverting party, though, would need to meet the same privacy and = authenticity requirements as any other identity information as = described in the privacy draft. Any future Diversion proposals should = look at using the capabilities defined there, rather than adding a new = header for this information.

Regards,

Mark Watson
Nortel Networks


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Levy [mailto:stlevy@cisco.com]
> Sent: 08 May 2001 17:11
> To: Igor Slepchin; 'Bryan Byerly'; = patrick.mourot@online.fr
> Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com; = sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu
> Subject: RE: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of = date
>
>
> Hi Igor,
>
> It may help you if you get to take a look at = some of the
> presentations from
> the SIP Summit held last week in Dallas. The = diversion header
> was mentioned
> by a number of the presenters as a way of = assisting in network
> interoperability and helping enable enhanced = services.
>
> Steve
>
> At 03:54 PM 5/7/01 -0400, Igor Slepchin = wrote:
> >A motivation section and examples of = functionality that require this
> >extension are conspicuously lacking in the = current draft.
> Adding them may
> >help me understand why this draft is needed = in the first place.
> >
> >---
> >Igor Slepchin
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Bryan Byerly [mailto:byerly@cisco.com]
> >> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 12:39 = PM
> >> To: patrick.mourot@online.fr
> >> Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com; = sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu;
> >> byerly@cisco.com
> >> Subject: Re: [SIP] Draft about = diversion out of date
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi Patrick,
> >>
> >> There is an updated version of the I-D = available.  I'll
> post it to the
> >> list shortly.
> >>
> >> thanks,
> >> Bryan
> >>
> >> patrick.mourot@online.fr wrote:
> >>
> >> > Sirs,
> >> >
> >> > The following I-D = "draft-levy-sip-diversion-01.txt" is now
> >> out of date.
> >> > Could someone give us the future = of that I-D:
> >> > -No longer used
> >> > -new version soon = available,
> >> > -else ?
> >> >
> >> > TIA for your response,
> >> >
> >> > Patrick
> >> >
> >> > = _______________________________________________
> >> > This list is for continuing = development of the SIP protocol.
> >> > The sip-implementor's list is the = place to discuss
> implementation,
> >> > and to receive advice on = understanding existing sip.
> >> > To subscribe to it, send mail = to
> >> > = sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" =
> >> in the body.
> >>
> >>
> >> = _______________________________________________
> >> This list is for continuing = development of the SIP protocol.
> >> The sip-implementor's list is the = place to discuss implementation,
> >> and to receive advice on understanding = existing sip.
> >> To subscribe to it, send mail to =
> >> = sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" =
> in the body.
> >>
> >
> = >_______________________________________________
> >This list is for continuing development of = the SIP protocol.
> >The sip-implementor's list is the place to = discuss implementation,
> >and to receive advice on understanding = existing sip.
> >To subscribe to it, send mail to
> >sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu = with "subscribe" in
> the body.
>
>
>
> = _______________________________________________
> This list is for continuing development of the = SIP protocol.
> The sip-implementor's list is the place to = discuss implementation,
> and to receive advice on understanding existing = sip.
> To subscribe to it, send mail to
> sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with = "subscribe" in the body.
>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C0D7C2.C19CCD40-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 8 10:20:04 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA23908 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 10:20:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61D1A44350; Tue, 8 May 2001 10:20:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F9934433B for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 10:19:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id KAA19223; Tue, 8 May 2001 10:23:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 8 May 2001 10:19:25 -0400 Message-ID: From: Igor Slepchin To: "'Bryan Byerly'" , Igor Slepchin Cc: patrick.mourot@online.fr, sip@lists.bell-labs.com, sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu, stlevy@cisco.com Subject: RE: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of date MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 10:19:25 -0400 > -----Original Message----- > From: Bryan Byerly [mailto:byerly@cisco.com] > > As I presented at the December 2000 IETF, the I-D is > motivated by several > PSTN/SIP internetworking scenarios including: I'd like to see what internetworking scenarios don't work without it. > Multiple diversions. Hmm, these are not really supported by PSTN. Just as your draft says, the only information available in ISDN parameters are the called party and the redirecting number. Nowhere does PSTN remember all the previous redirections like suggested by the draft. > Diverting a call to an E.164 service. What services is Diversion header required for? There are lots of obscure parameters in PSTN signaling; replicating all of them in SIP does not sound like a very good idea and is not necessary for internetworking. > Configuration issues (moving policy configuration to edges (UAs)) > > An ultimately called UAS can use the Diversion headers to > implement a local > policy for his particular service. For example, to answer > the question: > Into which voice mailbox should a message be placed? It's > important to > understand that this is a policy decision; and as such should be > configurable at the ultimate edge of the voice network (i.e. > move the smarts > to the edges). The examples in section 9 do cover some of > these issues. I find examples in section 9 rather farfetched. No company is ever going to have SIP addresses that look like sip:pizza@p1.isp.com (when was the last time you saw a real company with an email account at aol.com?) Realistically, the night service calls you mentioned will be redirected to something like pizza@nightservice.com or roses@nightservice.com. --- Igor Slepchin _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 8 11:49:03 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA28580 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:49:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 564F54433B; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:49:03 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7B6C44336 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:48:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id LAA21129 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:52:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:48:32 -0400 Message-ID: <9BF66EBF6BEFD942915B4D4D45C051F318035E@DYN-TX-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com> From: Steve Donovan To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] Session timer considered harmful (was RE: draft-ietf-si p-session- timer: refresh rate) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 11:48:31 -0400 I don't think we have reached consensus on this thread. The fundamental problem is that the session timer draft does not adequately address the potential smurf attack by a rouge UAC or proxy. Two solutions have been proposed: 1) Jonathan proposes defining a minimum value for session timer, with all requests containing a smaller value being rejected. 2) Dean, and others, propose that we make it a policy decision for each entity in the SIP network to determine what is a reasonable minimum. In an effort to come to closure on this question, I would propose the following be added to the session timer draft: 1) A method for a proxy or UAS to reject a session timer request because the session timer value is too small. This is needed for both approaches, so should not be controversial. I would propose that we use the 488 response with a reason phrase of Session Timer Too Small (or something similar). I would also propose that the session-expires header be used in this response to indicate the minimal acceptable session timer value. (Note: I'm trying to reuse an existing response instead of creating a new one. We can certainly create a new one, if there is consensus to do so). 2) We change the session-expires header to only support delta times with a granularity of minutes. I think there is consensus that session-expires values of less than one minute are not needed. 3) We add stronger wording in the security section of the draft describing the smurf attack that Jonathan is worried about. As part of the wording, we add the statement that entities supporting session timer SHOULD support a minimum time of n minutes. I propose we take Jonathan's suggestion and make n = 30. The obvious difference here is that Jonathan's suggestion becomes a SHOULD instead of a MUST. Thoughts? Steve --- Steven R. Donovan Architect dynamicsoft mailto:sdonovan@dynamicsoft.com 5100 Tennyson Parkway sip:sdonovan@sip.dynamicsoft.com Plano, Texas 75025 tel:+1-972-473-5469 http://www.dynamicsoft.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 8 12:02:18 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA29439 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 12:02:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A15CE44383; Tue, 8 May 2001 12:01:08 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from imr2.ericy.com (unknown [12.34.240.68]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CD504435A for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 12:00:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mr7.exu.ericsson.se (mr7att.ericy.com [138.85.92.15]) by imr2.ericy.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f48G0d820632 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:00:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from eamrcnt747.exu.ericsson.se (eamrcnt747.exu.ericsson.se [138.85.133.37]) by mr7.exu.ericsson.se (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id f48G0dl13058 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:00:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: FROM eamrcnt761.exu.ericsson.se BY eamrcnt747.exu.ericsson.se ; Tue May 08 11:00:31 2001 -0500 Received: by eamrcnt761.exu.ericsson.se with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 8 May 2001 11:00:30 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Sean Olson (EUS)" To: "'Steve Donovan'" , sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] Session timer considered harmful (was RE: draft-ietf-si p-session- timer: refresh rate) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C0D7D8.00E3A2C0" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 11:00:29 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0D7D8.00E3A2C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >In an effort to come to closure on this question, I would propose the >following be added to the session timer draft: > >1) A method for a proxy or UAS to reject a session timer >request because the >session timer value is too small. This is needed for both >approaches, so >should not be controversial. I would propose that we use the >488 response >with a reason phrase of Session Timer Too Small (or something >similar). I >would also propose that the session-expires header be used in >this response >to indicate the minimal acceptable session timer value. >(Note: I'm trying >to reuse an existing response instead of creating a new one. We can >certainly create a new one, if there is consensus to do so). This seems ideal. > >2) We change the session-expires header to only support delta >times with a >granularity of minutes. I think there is consensus that >session-expires >values of less than one minute are not needed. I don't see the need for this. While I think it really only makes sense to use delta values, for consistency I would allow both forms. Not allowing the absolute form doesn't help solve the smurf attack; disallowing small delta values does. > >3) We add stronger wording in the security section of the >draft describing >the smurf attack that Jonathan is worried about. As part of >the wording, we >add the statement that entities supporting session timer >SHOULD support a >minimum time of n minutes. I propose we take Jonathan's >suggestion and make >n = 30. The obvious difference here is that Jonathan's >suggestion becomes a >SHOULD instead of a MUST. A recommended value of 30 minutes is fine. Making it a SHOULD seems slightly too strong. Having the 488 response allows a UA to adapt to the networks desire for longer session timers. /sean > >Thoughts? > >Steve > >--- >Steven R. Donovan >Architect dynamicsoft > >mailto:sdonovan@dynamicsoft.com 5100 Tennyson Parkway >sip:sdonovan@sip.dynamicsoft.com Plano, Texas 75025 >tel:+1-972-473-5469 http://www.dynamicsoft.com ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0D7D8.00E3A2C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [SIP] Session timer considered harmful (was RE: = draft-ietf-si p-session- timer: refresh rate)

>In an effort to come to closure on this question, = I would propose the
>following be added to the session timer = draft:
>
>1) A method for a proxy or UAS to reject a = session timer
>request because the
>session timer value is too small.  This is = needed for both
>approaches, so
>should not be controversial.  I would = propose that we use the
>488 response
>with a reason phrase of Session Timer Too Small = (or something
>similar).  I
>would also propose that the session-expires = header be used in
>this response
>to indicate the minimal acceptable session timer = value. 
>(Note: I'm trying
>to reuse an existing response instead of = creating a new one.  We can
>certainly create a new one, if there is = consensus to do so).

This seems ideal.

>
>2) We change the session-expires header to only = support delta
>times with a
>granularity of minutes.  I think there is = consensus that
>session-expires
>values of less than one minute are not = needed. 

I don't see the need for this. While I think it = really only
makes sense to use delta values, for consistency I = would allow
both forms. Not allowing the absolute form doesn't = help solve
the smurf attack; disallowing small delta values = does.

>
>3) We add stronger wording in the security = section of the
>draft describing
>the smurf attack that Jonathan is worried = about.  As part of
>the wording, we
>add the statement that entities supporting = session timer
>SHOULD support a
>minimum time of n minutes.  I propose we = take Jonathan's
>suggestion and make
>n =3D 30.  The obvious difference here is = that Jonathan's
>suggestion becomes a
>SHOULD instead of a MUST.

A recommended value of 30 minutes is fine. Making it = a SHOULD seems
slightly too strong. Having the 488 response allows = a UA to adapt
to the networks desire for longer session = timers.

/sean

>
>Thoughts?
>
>Steve
>
>---
>Steven R. Donovan
>Architect        &n= bsp;           &n= bsp;      = dynamicsoft          &= nbsp;    
>         =
>mailto:sdonovan@dynamicsoft.com=      5100 Tennyson Parkway
>sip:sdonovan@sip.dynamicsoft.com    Plano, = Texas 75025
>tel:+1-972-473-5469      &nbs= p;          http://www.dynamicsoft.com

------_=_NextPart_001_01C0D7D8.00E3A2C0-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 8 12:15:03 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA00134 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 12:15:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B9564436D; Tue, 8 May 2001 12:15:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B17B44367 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 12:14:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id MAA21682; Tue, 8 May 2001 12:18:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 8 May 2001 12:14:30 -0400 Message-ID: <9BF66EBF6BEFD942915B4D4D45C051F318035F@DYN-TX-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com> From: Steve Donovan To: "'Sean Olson (EUS)'" , Steve Donovan , sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] Session timer considered harmful (was RE: draft-ietf-si p-session- timer: refresh rate) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 12:14:28 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: Sean Olson (EUS) [mailto:sean.olson@ericsson.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 11:00 AM To: 'Steve Donovan'; sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] Session timer considered harmful (was RE: draft-ietf-si p-session- timer: refresh rate) > >2) We change the session-expires header to only support delta >times with a >granularity of minutes. I think there is consensus that >session-expires >values of less than one minute are not needed. I don't see the need for this. While I think it really only makes sense to use delta values, for consistency I would allow both forms. Not allowing the absolute form doesn't help solve the smurf attack; disallowing small delta values does. SRD> Sorry, I wasn't clear. I wasn't meaning to disallow absolute times, just small delta values. SRD> So, to restate, the proposal is to change the delta time portion of the session-timer header to support a granularity of minutes. The absolute timer portion would continue to be supported with no change. --- Steven R. Donovan Architect dynamicsoft mailto:sdonovan@dynamicsoft.com 5100 Tennyson Parkway sip:sdonovan@sip.dynamicsoft.com Plano, Texas 75025 tel:+1-972-473-5469 http://www.dynamicsoft.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 8 15:15:06 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id PAA05203 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 15:15:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87A614433B; Tue, 8 May 2001 15:15:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from gonna.tellme.com (gonna.tellme.com [209.157.156.33]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D89144336 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 15:10:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by gonna.tellme.com (Postfix, from userid 11) id 6296C8D722; Tue, 8 May 2001 12:10:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from djc01 (dhcp156-139.corp.tellme.com [209.157.156.139]) by gonna.tellme.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 8591D6E706 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 12:10:37 -0700 (PDT) From: "Don Jackson" To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-AntiVirus: scanned for viruses by AMaViS perl-5 Subject: [SIP] Are Contact headers mandatory in 2xx responses ? Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 12:15:14 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the bis 02 draft, on page 37, table 4 Header field where proxy ACK BYE CAN INV OPT REG Contact 2xx - - - m o o Does this mean that when a UAS responds 2xx to an INVITE that a Contact header is mandatory? If not, what does this mean? _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 8 15:21:04 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id PAA05309 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 15:21:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E0544435C; Tue, 8 May 2001 15:21:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mail.inetmail.att.net (mailhost1.inetmail.att.net [204.127.132.33]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA35744356 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 15:20:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from email.masconit.com ([12.41.17.214]) by mail.inetmail.att.net (mtiagic01) with ESMTP id <20010508192025gi128279ire>; Tue, 8 May 2001 19:20:26 +0000 Received: from ashok (RANJIT [12.41.17.196]) by email.masconit.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id JB7PPRRF; Tue, 8 May 2001 14:27:45 -0500 Message-ID: <019601c0de3e$11fb62c0$c411290c@masconit.com> Reply-To: "Ranjit Avasarala" From: "Ranjit Avasarala" To: "Don Jackson" , References: Subject: Re: [SIP] Are Contact headers mandatory in 2xx responses ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 14:26:13 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Contact header is a request header. So it won't appear in response. Regards Ranjit ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Jackson To: Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 2:15 PM Subject: [SIP] Are Contact headers mandatory in 2xx responses ? In the bis 02 draft, on page 37, table 4 Header field where proxy ACK BYE CAN INV OPT REG Contact 2xx - - - m o o Does this mean that when a UAS responds 2xx to an INVITE that a Contact header is mandatory? If not, what does this mean? _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 8 15:26:43 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id PAA05470 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 15:26:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA19C4436A; Tue, 8 May 2001 15:26:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED6DD44364 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 15:25:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id PAA25086; Tue, 8 May 2001 15:29:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 8 May 2001 15:25:52 -0400 Message-ID: From: Jonathan Rosenberg To: "'Ranjit Avasarala'" Cc: "'sip@lists.bell-labs.com'" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [SIP] RE: [Sip-implementors] Shouldn't Retry-After be a general header ?? Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 15:25:52 -0400 (moved to sip) > -----Original Message----- > From: Ranjit Avasarala [mailto:ranjitka@email.masconit.com] > Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 1:31 PM > To: Jonathan Rosenberg > Cc: sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu > Subject: Re: [Sip-implementors] Shouldn't Retry-After be a general > header ?? > > > Hi Jonathan, > > So now we should treat Retry-After as response header? be'se > i am still I > am not very clear. Since it appears in REGISTER > request may be it could be classified as General header. Right now, the spec is inconsistent. It calls it a response header, but as currently specified, it can be present in a REGISTER, which would make it a general header. My proposed resolution was to deprecate its usage in REGISTER. The reason is that its another special case, and there are no defined semantics about what to do when you get it in a request. -Jonathan R. --- Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 72 Eagle Rock Ave. Chief Scientist First Floor dynamicsoft East Hanover, NJ 07936 jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 http://www.dynamicsoft.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jonathan Rosenberg > To: ; Ranjit Avasarala > ; > ; Jonathan Rosenberg > > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 11:55 AM > Subject: RE: [Sip-implementors] Shouldn't Retry-After be a > general header ?? > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: sunayak@hss.hns.com [mailto:sunayak@hss.hns.com] > > Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 11:43 PM > > To: Ranjit Avasarala; sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu; > > jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com > > Subject: Re: [Sip-implementors] Shouldn't Retry-After be a general > > header ?? > > > > > > I have the new bis-02 draft (November 24,2000 ; Expires April > > 2001) and it > > clearly > > states (in the above mentioned paragraph) that Retry-After is > > a *response* > > header > > field. Is it that you are referring to a more recent version > > of the draft > > where > > the change was incorporated ? > > The spec is inconsistent. Everything does say its a response > header, except > this little tidbit about using it in REGISTER request. It is > my preference > to delete this text on usage in REGISTER. Its yet another > exception, yet > another special case. I'd rather avoid that. I don't think anyone has > implemented it, nor is it clear what the precise semantics are for the > server receiving the REGISTER. So what if they are available > again in an > hour? Does this mean the contact is re-instated automatically? > > > > > While we are at it, i would like to raise another general query : > > Quite often on the list issues are raised, and finally resolved with > > Jonathan/Henning mentioning that they have added a > > line/remark clearing > > the same in the draft. Similarly, the new record-route text > > was brought up, > > discussed and issues were resolved. What i want to know is > > whether there > > is some kind of online version of the draft that is > > constantly updated with > > these changes/new texts so that it makes our task as > > implementors easy when > > we are faced with the same issues. > > I wish it were that simple. There is a working document in > latex, edited by > Henning and myself. Sometimes we update it immediately with > resolutions to > issues, sometimes I make a note to myself in an > increasingly-long to-do > document. We are trying to automate this through the > establishment of a bug > tracking system, which would allow queries to be made, and > searches to be > done, against open issues. Thats currently in progress. > > -Jonathan R. > > --- > Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 72 Eagle Rock Ave. > Chief Scientist First Floor > dynamicsoft East Hanover, NJ 07936 > jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 > http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 > http://www.dynamicsoft.com > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 8 15:32:06 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id PAA05578 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 15:32:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47CA944370; Tue, 8 May 2001 15:32:03 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from topaz.3com.com (topaz.3com.com [192.156.136.158]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C2AE44361 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 15:31:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from opal.3com.com (opal.3com.com [139.87.50.117]) by topaz.3com.com (Switch-2.1.1/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id f48JTed26392; Tue, 8 May 2001 12:29:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hqoutbound.ops.3com.com (hqoutbound.ops.3com.com [139.87.48.104]) by opal.3com.com (Switch-2.1.1/Switch-2.1.0) with SMTP id f48JVOk28308; Tue, 8 May 2001 12:31:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by hqoutbound.ops.3com.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.7 (934.1 12-30-1999)) id 88256A46.006B2C98 ; Tue, 8 May 2001 12:30:37 -0700 X-Lotus-FromDomain: 3COM From: Deepak_Pant@3com.com To: "Ranjit Avasarala" Cc: "Don Jackson" , sip@lists.bell-labs.com Message-ID: <88256A46.006B20D6.00@hqoutbound.ops.3com.com> Subject: Re: [SIP] Are Contact headers mandatory in 2xx responses ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 14:30:42 -0500 Hi Ranjit, rfc2543bis-02 says that contact header is a general header and not a contact header. Section 6.15 of the drafts says that the UAS MUST insert a contact response header to indicate where it is reachable for future SIP requests. -Deepak "Ranjit Avasarala" on 05/16/2001 02:26:13 PM Please respond to "Ranjit Avasarala" Sent by: "Ranjit Avasarala" To: "Don Jackson" , sip@lists.bell-labs.com cc: (Deepak Pant/MW/US/3Com) Subject: Re: [SIP] Are Contact headers mandatory in 2xx responses ? Hi Contact header is a request header. So it won't appear in response. Regards Ranjit ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Jackson To: Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 2:15 PM Subject: [SIP] Are Contact headers mandatory in 2xx responses ? In the bis 02 draft, on page 37, table 4 Header field where proxy ACK BYE CAN INV OPT REG Contact 2xx - - - m o o Does this mean that when a UAS responds 2xx to an INVITE that a Contact header is mandatory? If not, what does this mean? _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 8 15:37:26 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id PAA05663 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 15:37:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41C5B4437A; Tue, 8 May 2001 15:33:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A8BB4437A for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 15:32:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id PAA25159; Tue, 8 May 2001 15:35:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 8 May 2001 15:32:04 -0400 Message-ID: From: Igor Slepchin To: "'Don Jackson'" , sip@lists.bell-labs.com Cc: sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu Subject: RE: [SIP] Are Contact headers mandatory in 2xx responses ? MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 15:32:04 -0400 Yes, that's exactly what this means - Contact is mandatory in 2xx responses to INVITEs. --- Igor Slepchin > -----Original Message----- > From: Don Jackson [mailto:dcj@tellme.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 3:15 PM > To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com > Subject: [SIP] Are Contact headers mandatory in 2xx responses ? > > > > In the bis 02 draft, on page 37, table 4 > > > Header field where proxy ACK BYE CAN INV OPT REG > > Contact 2xx - - - m o o > > > Does this mean that when a UAS responds 2xx to an INVITE > that a Contact header is mandatory? If not, what does this > mean? > > > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 8 15:44:01 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id PAA05900 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 15:44:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED22D44388; Tue, 8 May 2001 15:39:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mail.inetmail.att.net (mailhost1.inetmail.att.net [204.127.132.33]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98E6244382 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 15:38:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from email.masconit.com ([12.41.17.214]) by mail.inetmail.att.net (mtiagic01) with ESMTP id <20010508193836gi128280pqe>; Tue, 8 May 2001 19:38:36 +0000 Received: from ashok (RANJIT [12.41.17.196]) by email.masconit.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id JB7PPR4G; Tue, 8 May 2001 14:45:44 -0500 Message-ID: <01d101c0de40$943d6a60$c411290c@masconit.com> Reply-To: "Ranjit Avasarala" From: "Ranjit Avasarala" To: Cc: "Don Jackson" , References: <88256A46.006B20D6.00@hqoutbound.ops.3com.com> Subject: Re: [SIP] Are Contact headers mandatory in 2xx responses ? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 14:44:11 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Deepak, ya I agree with you, contact is a general header. My mistake. and it appears in INVITE, OPTIONS , BYE and 2XX. Regards Ranjit ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Ranjit Avasarala Cc: Don Jackson ; Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 2:30 PM Subject: Re: [SIP] Are Contact headers mandatory in 2xx responses ? Hi Ranjit, rfc2543bis-02 says that contact header is a general header and not a contact header. Section 6.15 of the drafts says that the UAS MUST insert a contact response header to indicate where it is reachable for future SIP requests. -Deepak "Ranjit Avasarala" on 05/16/2001 02:26:13 PM Please respond to "Ranjit Avasarala" Sent by: "Ranjit Avasarala" To: "Don Jackson" , sip@lists.bell-labs.com cc: (Deepak Pant/MW/US/3Com) Subject: Re: [SIP] Are Contact headers mandatory in 2xx responses ? Hi Contact header is a request header. So it won't appear in response. Regards Ranjit ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Jackson To: Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 2:15 PM Subject: [SIP] Are Contact headers mandatory in 2xx responses ? In the bis 02 draft, on page 37, table 4 Header field where proxy ACK BYE CAN INV OPT REG Contact 2xx - - - m o o Does this mean that when a UAS responds 2xx to an INVITE that a Contact header is mandatory? If not, what does this mean? _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 8 15:49:05 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id PAA06008 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 15:49:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CACA44390; Tue, 8 May 2001 15:47:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F0904438E for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 15:46:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id PAA25408; Tue, 8 May 2001 15:50:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 8 May 2001 15:46:30 -0400 Message-ID: From: Jonathan Rosenberg To: "'Ajay Chitturi'" , "'sip@lists.bell-labs.com'" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [SIP] RE: [Sip-implementors] Crashed and rebooted UAS scenario and CSeq s Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 15:46:30 -0400 Moved to sip, as this involves a proposed change to the spec. > -----Original Message----- > From: Ajay Chitturi [mailto:ajaych@windows.microsoft.com] > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 3:24 PM > To: simple@mailman.dynamicsoft.com; sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu > Subject: [Sip-implementors] Crashed and rebooted UAS scenario > and CSeqs > > > Hi, > > Section 11.5 of 2543bis says the UAS MAY reject the INVITE with a new > Call-Id and a To header > with a tag. Should we reject such an INVITE with a 481 ? That is the preferred response, yes. > Does this hold for SUBSCRIBE / MESSAGE (also an INVITE for an IM > session). The server can do whatever it likes. However, a subscription is different from a call. In many cases, if you get a re-invite for a call that you don't know about, you want to terminate the call on the other side. However, if you get a subscription refresh you don't know about, reinstating the subscription is probably more desirable. So, the processing may depend on the method. > Could there be any scenarios where rejecting such sessions > could create > problems ? So long as your server never loses state for active "sessions" of any sort (subscriptions, calls), there are no problems rejecting all requests with a tag in the To field. > > Also this section suggests that UAs wishing to handle such INVITEs > robustly must choose > monotonically increasing CSeq numbers even across reboots. Is > there any > simple mechanism > for choosing CSeqs in such a manner ? Use the system clock. > > draft-ietf-simple-im-00 (section 6.7)strongly recommends that CSeq > should be computed using a clock (it refers to the SIP > section on CSeq). > This section also says "This allows for the CSeq to increment without > requiring the UA to store the previous CSeq values". The SIP bis draft > suggests that a client could use a 32 bit second clock for generating > the CSeqs. > This mechanism would work only if the client could guarantee that it > will not generate more > than one request per second. No. The clock is used to generate the initial timestamp. Subsequent values increment by one from the initial, independent of the time. The result is that you could only recover from a reboot if you recreate the call N seconds after it started, where N is the number of requests that were sent since the call was established. This might possibly be a problem, although I suspect it will never be one in practice. In any case, the whole bit about recovering from crashes really belongs in an extension, which I am currently preparing. I think the spec should simply say that the initial CSeq value can be computed in many different ways, and that the only requirement is that the initial value be less than 2**31. -Jonathan R. --- Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 72 Eagle Rock Ave. Chief Scientist First Floor dynamicsoft East Hanover, NJ 07936 jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 http://www.dynamicsoft.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 8 17:34:03 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id RAA08170 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 17:34:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A46FF44356; Tue, 8 May 2001 17:34:03 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com [161.44.11.97]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B12D44336 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 17:33:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dingdong.cisco.com (dingdong.cisco.com [64.102.17.16]) by rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id f48LVdm04633; Tue, 8 May 2001 17:31:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cisco.com (rtp-xdm2.cisco.com [64.102.17.79]) by dingdong.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id AFU34203 (AUTH byerly); Tue, 8 May 2001 17:32:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3AF8660B.3ECA64F5@cisco.com> From: Bryan Byerly X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51C-CISCOENG [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Igor Slepchin Cc: patrick.mourot@online.fr, sip@lists.bell-labs.com, sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu, stlevy@cisco.com, byerly@cisco.com Subject: Re: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of date References: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------6EFE1E1AF399E5CC0A2981FF" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 17:32:59 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6EFE1E1AF399E5CC0A2981FF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Igor, I've attached an additional example of a scenario that you've requested. Please see other responses inline. thanks for your help, Bryan Igor Slepchin wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bryan Byerly [mailto:byerly@cisco.com] > > > > As I presented at the December 2000 IETF, the I-D is > > motivated by several > > PSTN/SIP internetworking scenarios including: > > I'd like to see what internetworking scenarios don't work without it. I've attached one such example. > > Multiple diversions. > > Hmm, these are not really supported by PSTN. Just as your draft says, the > only information available in ISDN parameters are the called party and the > redirecting number. Nowhere does PSTN remember all the previous redirections > like suggested by the draft. Actually, as the Diversion I-D points out, most ISUP and ISDN variants support up to 2 redirecting numbers. Could you point out the part of the Diversion I-D that led you to believe there could be only one? We'd need to clarify that section. > > Diverting a call to an E.164 service. > > What services is Diversion header required for? There are lots of obscure > parameters in PSTN signaling; replicating all of them in SIP does not sound > like a very good idea and is not necessary for internetworking. The Diversion I-D is focused on answering 2 questions for the (ultimately) called user agent: From whom was the call diverted? Why was the call diverted? Implementations of services such as voicemail and night service frequently require this information. > > Configuration issues (moving policy configuration to edges (UAs)) > > > > An ultimately called UAS can use the Diversion headers to > > implement a local > > policy for his particular service. For example, to answer > > the question: > > Into which voice mailbox should a message be placed? It's > > important to > > understand that this is a policy decision; and as such should be > > configurable at the ultimate edge of the voice network (i.e. > > move the smarts > > to the edges). The examples in section 9 do cover some of > > these issues. > > I find examples in section 9 rather farfetched. No company is ever going to > have SIP addresses that look like sip:pizza@p1.isp.com (when was the last > time you saw a real company with an email account at aol.com?) > Realistically, the night service calls you mentioned will be redirected to > something like pizza@nightservice.com or roses@nightservice.com. The example shows translation of a generic keyword (pizza) into a specific URL as determined by the policy of the "carrier". Today's web brower "carriers" already exhibit this type of behavior today. Try typing "pizza" in your web browser... I wouldn't be surprised if the topmost hits weren't somehow compensating the web browser "carrier". I'd imagine that tomorrow's VoIP carriers could base some business models off of this idea. Again, please also see the attached example below. Perhaps it will seem more realistic. The Diversion header is merely providing supplementary information that cannot always be found in any other parts of the SIP PDU. Implementors of some services (including voicemail and nightservice) need a consistent (standardized) mechanism to retrieve this supplementary information so that they can apply policy decisions to it to affect their service logic. The Diversion header provides such a mechanism and does so without creating a configuration burden on system administrators of intermediate gateway/routing nodes. thanks again for your help, Bryan Bryan J. Byerly byerly@cisco.com --------------6EFE1E1AF399E5CC0A2981FF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="sip-diversion-example.txt" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="sip-diversion-example.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the following ladder diagram, a call is placed from the PSTN to 5551234 which hangs off of the 555xxxx PBX. The Call Forward No Answer (CFNA) timer expires in the PBX, and the PBX diverts the call to the user's admin/secretary at 5551001. The secretary's phone is busy, so the PBX diverts the call through the local PSTN/SIP gateway and SIP proxy to the voicemail service with which the enterprise has contracted, in this case a SIP voicemail service. The SIP proxy performs an (ENUM) lookup of 9231000 which resolves to 3.3.3.3. When the call reaches the voicemail server, the message may be deposited into a voice mailbox for 5551234, 5551000, or both depending on the policy configured at the voicemail service. In addition, in practice one would normally encounter scenarios where the SIP proxy is owned by a carrier and the voicemail server by a third party. In this example, usage of the Diversion header allows voicemail service policy to be changed (by the voicemail provider) without requiring changes in the carrier's equipment. (555xxxx) (9231000) (1.1.1.1) (2.2.2.2) (3.3.3.3) PSTN PBX GW SIP Proxy SIP voicemail server | | | | | |--Setup---------->| | | | | called:5551234 | | | | | | | | | |<-Call Proceeding-| | | | | | | | | |<-Alerting--------| | | | | | | | | | CFNA timer expires | | | | | | | | | ----| | | | | / Call presented to 5551001 (admin) | | \ | | | | | ---->| | | | | busy | | | | | | | | | |--Setup--->| | | | | called: 9231000 | | | | 1st Redirection: 5551234 | | | | reason=cfna | | | | 2nd Redirection: 5551001 | | | | reason=cfb | | | | counter=2 | | | | | | | | | |--INVITE sip:9231000@2.2.2.2;user=phone-->| | | | To: 9231000@1.1.1.1 | | | Diversion: sip:5551001@1.1.1.1;user=phone;reason=cfb, | | | sip:5551234@1.1.1.1;user=phone;reason=cfna | | | | | | | | routing lookup (eg. ENUM) | | | | (9231000->3.3.3.3) | | | | | | | | | |--INVITE sip:3.3.3.3---->| | | | | To: 9231000@1.1.1.1 | | | | Diversion: sip:5551001@1.1.1.1;user=phone;reason=cfb, | | | | sip:5551234@1.1.1.1;user=phone;reason=cfna | | | | | | | | |<-200--------------------| | | |<-200-----------| | | | |--ACK------------------------------------>| | |<-Connect--| | | |<-Connect---------| | | | | | | | | --------------6EFE1E1AF399E5CC0A2981FF-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 8 21:57:05 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id VAA12372 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 21:57:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A81A44361; Tue, 8 May 2001 21:57:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from gw.softfront.co.jp (gw.softfront.co.jp [202.232.222.2]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D80F444336 for ; Tue, 8 May 2001 21:56:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.softfront.co.jp (mail2.softfront.co.jp [172.16.1.41]) by gw.softfront.co.jp (8.9.3/3.7W) with SMTP id KAA13104 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 10:56:26 +0900 (JST) Received: from shagotom by mail2.softfront.co.jp id AA00688 ; 09 May 2001 10:56:51 +0900 Message-ID: <001101c0d82b$72e4e250$c51010ac@softfront.co.jp> From: "Rafiqul Islam Maruf" To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Subject: [SIP] Looking for a SIP-PSTN Gateway for IPv6 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 10:57:48 +0900 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Everybody! We are looking for a 'Gateway' to be used between SIP and PSTN. This Gateway will be used in a pure IPv6 environment. Therefore, the Gateway must be able to support IPv6. Any information about this Gateway (source) will be highly appreciated. Thanks in advance. Maruf --------------------------------------------- Division of Research & Development Softfront, Inc., Sapporo, Japan TEL: +81 (011) 623-1006 FAX: +81 (011) 623-1007 WEB: www.softfront.co.jp OR www.softfront.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 9 01:59:02 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id BAA22706 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 01:59:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F9EB44358; Wed, 9 May 2001 01:59:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from albatross-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se (albatross-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [194.237.142.116]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72DDA44336 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 01:58:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fogerty.lmf.ericsson.se (fogerty.lmf.ericsson.se [131.160.11.6]) by albatross.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.11.0/8.11.0/WIREfire-1.3) with ESMTP id f495wTN19802; Wed, 9 May 2001 07:58:29 +0200 (MEST) Received: from lmf.ericsson.se (E005004B52C74.lmf.ericsson.se [131.160.30.161]) by fogerty.lmf.ericsson.se (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f495wRJ23536; Wed, 9 May 2001 08:58:27 +0300 (EET DST) Message-ID: <3AF8DC7E.2F56F220@lmf.ericsson.se> From: Christer Holmberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Sean Olson (EUS)" Cc: "'Steve Donovan'" , sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: Re: [SIP] Session timer considered harmful (was RE: draft-ietf-sip-session- timer: refresh rate) References: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------FB6F173B95554906C5A87861" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 08:58:22 +0300 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------FB6F173B95554906C5A87861 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, My comments are almost the same as Sean's. >>1) A method for a proxy or UAS to reject a session timer >>request because the session timer value is too small. This is needed for both >>approaches, so should not be controversial. I would propose that we use the >>488 response with a reason phrase of Session Timer Too Small (or something >>similar). I would also propose that the session-expires header be used in >>this response to indicate the minimal acceptable session timer value. >>(Note: I'm trying to reuse an existing response instead of creating a new one. We can >>certainly create a new one, if there is consensus to do so). > >This seems ideal. [Christer]: I agree. I would like to add a specific 4xx response code for this, though, instead of having to read the reason phrase. >>3) We add stronger wording in the security section of the >>draft describing the smurf attack that Jonathan is worried about. As part of >>the wording, we add the statement that entities supporting session timer >>SHOULD support a minimum time of n minutes. I propose we take Jonathan's >>suggestion and make n = 30. The obvious difference here is that Jonathan's >>suggestion becomes a SHOULD instead of a MUST. > >A recommended value of 30 minutes is fine. Making it a SHOULD seems >slightly too strong. Having the 488 response allows a UA to adapt >to the networks desire for longer session timers. I agree. I would even argue that a recommended specific timer value (e.g. 30 minutes) is too "strong", because what data do we have to "back up" that value? The proper value is depending on so many things (network architecture, transport protocol, number of nodes, network reliability, node reliability, network size, distance between nodes etc etc etc etc etc), so I would rather describe how the session-timer shall be used, and why a relatively high value shall be used ( 30 minutes can be given as an EXAMPLE instead of a RECOMMENDATION). This is just a smaill detail, though, so we should not spend too much time arguing about it. Regards, Christer Holmberg Ericsson Finland --------------FB6F173B95554906C5A87861 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="christer.holmberg.vcf" Content-Description: Card for Christer Holmberg Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="christer.holmberg.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit begin:vcard n:Holmberg;Christer tel;cell:+358-40-5604412 tel;work:+358-9-2992943 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Ericsson;IP Multimedia / Advanced Signalling Research Laboratory adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 email;internet:christer.holmberg@lmf.ericsson.se title:System Designer fn:Christer Holmberg end:vcard --------------FB6F173B95554906C5A87861-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 9 03:48:01 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id DAA01471 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 03:48:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3A844436D; Wed, 9 May 2001 03:48:03 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from nt-mail.tlv.radvision.com (unknown [212.143.185.30]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFD2A44336 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 03:47:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by NT-MAIL with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 9 May 2001 10:48:02 +0300 Message-ID: From: Itamar Gilad To: "'SIP List'" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1255" Subject: [SIP] REFER before INVITE is completed Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 10:48:01 +0300 Can a REFER transaction occur before the INVITE that initiated the call is completed? For example: UA1 UA2 | INVITE | |--------------------------->| | | | REFER | |<---------------------------| | | | 202 (of REFER) | |----------------------------| | | | 200 (of INVITE) | |<---------------------------| | | | ACK | |--------------------------->| | | | | UA2 continues with REFER... Itamar Gilad RADVISION itamarg@tlv.radvision.com 24 Raul Wallenberg St. tel: +972 3 7659938 Building D mob: +972 56 429938 Tel-Aviv 69719 fax: +972 3 6472637 Israel _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 9 05:39:01 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id FAA02686 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 05:39:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09E7944378; Wed, 9 May 2001 05:39:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from C9Mailgw08.prontomail.com (unknown [216.163.188.10]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 379C544336 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 05:38:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from c9web107 (216.163.188.10) by C9Mailgw08.prontomail.com (NPlex 5.5.029) id 3AF349CE00090FDA for sip@lists.bell-labs.com; Wed, 9 May 2001 02:36:07 -0700 X-Version: indya 6.3.2329.0 From: sachin_karkala@indya.com Message-Id: <922DF541D5445D1168050005B81ECAE5@sachin_karkala.indya.com> X-Priority: Normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailer: Web Based Pronto Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [SIP] need some info abt SIP proxy Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 15:12:10 +0530 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hi, i'm trying to implement SIP proxy server, i have few questions and hope to get the answeres ASAP :) 1) when ever a INVITE request comes to the proxy, first should it check for whether the user is registered for the proxy? if so.. the user should also get registerd in all the proxies the mesage gets routed? 2)How the billing is implemented in a proxy? 3) I guess its always two proxies that is required to establish a session... is that true? if not kindly explain. 4) how exactly the message gets routed to its destination ( i.e. how the proxy comes to know destination IP address..etc)? thanks in advance :) Sachin K Enjoy being an Indyan at http://www.indya.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 9 06:03:01 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id GAA02975 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 06:03:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F0F444380; Wed, 9 May 2001 06:03:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mail.eis.ernet.in (unknown [202.41.97.131]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B854344361 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 06:02:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uucp-relay-delhi.ernet.in (vikram.doe.ernet.in [202.41.97.134]) by mail.eis.ernet.in (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id GD2D0Q03.C6E for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 15:26:50 +0500 Received: by uucp-relay-delhi.ernet.in (8.9.3+Sun/SMI-4.1-MHS-7.0) id PAA18452; Wed, 9 May 2001 15:30:40 -0500 (GMT) >Received: from sagit.cdotd.ernet.in by cdotd.cdotd.ernet.in (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA11713; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:27:23 -0500 Message-ID: <3AF8F18E.694DBC87@cdotd.ernet.in> From: Anupama Chopra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; OSF1 V4.0 alpha) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: [SIP] : SIP in 3GPP Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received: from cdotd by vikram.doe.ernet.in; Wed, 9 May 2001 15:30 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 12:28:15 +0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, PLease let me know the documents on SIP in 3GPP. Regards Anupama _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 9 06:21:04 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id GAA03138 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 06:21:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D06EB4433B; Wed, 9 May 2001 06:21:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from cmail.mantraonline.com (cmail.mantraonline.com [202.56.230.27]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB00444336 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 06:20:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mtv01ex01.mindtree.com ([202.56.254.10]) by cmail.mantraonline.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id GD2EF800.J30; Wed, 9 May 2001 15:57:08 +0500 Subject: RE: [SIP] : SIP in 3GPP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" content-class: urn:content-classes:message Message-ID: <2330401A6FE03445ADA682F5EBB7502DEF49F6@mtv01ex01.mindtree.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.4417.0 Thread-Topic: [SIP] : SIP in 3GPP Thread-Index: AcDYcNvxzLthU3izTJGWfgHpuiUTYAAAFX7w From: "Vivek Shrivastava" To: "Anupama Chopra" , Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 15:48:18 +0530 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ietf.org id GAA03138 Check out 3GPP TS 23.228, 3GPP TS 24.228, 3GPP TS 24.229, 3GPP TS 23.218 -----Original Message----- From: Anupama Chopra [mailto:anupama@cdotd.ernet.in] Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 12:58 PM To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: [SIP] : SIP in 3GPP Hi, PLease let me know the documents on SIP in 3GPP. Regards Anupama _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 9 06:57:02 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id GAA03416 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 06:57:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2258844356; Wed, 9 May 2001 06:57:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from c000.muc.cp.net (c000-h002.c000.muc.cp.net [209.228.29.26]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 7A05844336 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 06:56:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (cpmta 3671 invoked from network); 9 May 2001 11:56:41 +0100 Message-ID: <20010509105641.3670.cpmta@c000.muc.cp.net> X-Sent: 9 May 2001 10:56:41 GMT Received: from [194.133.58.200] by mail.altavista.fr with HTTP; 09 May 2001 11:56:41 BST Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com From: Fred Peyrard X-Mailer: Web Mail 3.9.1.6 X-Sent-From: fred.peyrard@altavista.fr Subject: [SIP] Call vs CallLeg, Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: 9 May 2001 11:56:41 +0100 Hi, When reading the rfc2543bis, I understand that there is a theorical difference between the concept of call and the concept of call-leg. But, concretely, I can't see any example where you could have several call-legs belonging to the same call. Do you have any idea conflicting with this? Fred, Internet et mail gratuit AltaVista http://www.altavista.fr _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 9 06:58:57 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id GAA03438 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 06:58:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E151F4438E; Wed, 9 May 2001 06:58:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from c000.muc.cp.net (c000-h002.c000.muc.cp.net [209.228.29.26]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 1084544389 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 06:57:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (cpmta 3714 invoked from network); 9 May 2001 11:57:47 +0100 Message-ID: <20010509105747.3713.cpmta@c000.muc.cp.net> X-Sent: 9 May 2001 10:57:47 GMT Received: from [194.133.58.200] by mail.altavista.fr with HTTP; 09 May 2001 11:57:47 BST Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Mime-Version: 1.0 To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com From: Fred Peyrard X-Mailer: Web Mail 3.9.1.6 X-Sent-From: fred.peyrard@altavista.fr Subject: [SIP] Call vs CallLeg, Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: 9 May 2001 11:57:47 +0100 Hi, When reading the rfc2543bis, I understand that there is a theorical difference between the concept of call and the concept of call-leg. But, concretely, I can't see any example where you could have several call-legs belonging to the same call. Do you have any idea conflicting with this? Fred, Internet et mail gratuit AltaVista http://www.altavista.fr _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 9 08:05:02 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id IAA04390 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 08:05:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AF5344361; Wed, 9 May 2001 08:05:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from hebe.or.intel.com (jffdns02.or.intel.com [134.134.248.4]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B12644336 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 08:04:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SMTP (orsmsxvs01-1.jf.intel.com [192.168.65.200]) by hebe.or.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.36 2001/04/18 16:16:02 root Exp $) with SMTP id MAA08571 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:04:29 GMT Received: from orsmsx28.jf.intel.com ([192.168.70.28]) by 192.168.70.200 (Norton AntiVirus for Internet Email Gateways 1.0) ; Wed, 09 May 2001 12:04:29 0000 (GMT) Received: by orsmsx28.jf.intel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 9 May 2001 05:04:27 -0700 Message-ID: <4148FEAAD879D311AC5700A0C969E89006E18AE0@orsmsx35.jf.intel.com> From: "Gross, Gerhard" To: "SIP WG mailing list (E-mail)" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Subject: [SIP] AAA/SIP interaction Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 14:22:00 -0700 A pair of drafts have been submitted recently concerning inter-domain AAA for SIP IP comm sessions. This work is intended to supply additional infrastructure to support wide- spread and general use of SIP, including support for policy management and billable services. Messages have been posted to the SIP-AAA list with a small amount of support but not many comments otherwise. 1) Is the SIP WG too busy now to give time to this type of work? 2) Is the SIPPING WG not officially started yet? Any forecasts about when it will start and begin to take on work items? Thanks! Gery XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX X X X Gerhard W. Gross, Ph.D. X X Intel X X 2111 NE 25th Ave X X Hillsboro, OR 97124-5961, USA X X Internet Infrastructure Arch. Group X X - Internet and Communication Lab X X phone: (503) 264-6389 X X fax: (503) 264-3483 X X email: gerhard.gross@intel.com X X X XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 9 08:07:13 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id IAA04449 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 08:07:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E8E14438C; Wed, 9 May 2001 08:06:03 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mail.eis.ernet.in (unknown [202.41.97.131]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BF9744382 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 08:05:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uucp-relay-delhi.ernet.in (vikram.doe.ernet.in [202.41.97.134]) by mail.eis.ernet.in (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with ESMTP id GD2IPG04.C6T for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 17:29:40 +0500 Received: by uucp-relay-delhi.ernet.in (8.9.3+Sun/SMI-4.1-MHS-7.0) id RAA26866; Wed, 9 May 2001 17:33:29 -0500 (GMT) >Received: from sagit.cdotd.ernet.in by cdotd.cdotd.ernet.in (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA18180; Wed, 9 May 2001 17:25:49 -0500 Message-ID: <3AF9377F.A1EF5BB4@cdotd.ernet.in> From: Anupama Chopra X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; OSF1 V4.0 alpha) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sip@lists.bell-labs.com" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received: from cdotd by vikram.doe.ernet.in; Wed, 9 May 2001 17:33 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [SIP] SIP]:DEVICE INDEPENDENT PERSONAL MOBILITY AND LOCATION SERVICE Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 17:26:39 +0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I was reading an article in which It was mentioned that "mobile IP doesnot provide means of device independent personal mobility and location service" - Can somebody put some light on this statement as to how SIP supports it. Regards Anupama _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 9 08:16:03 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id IAA04616 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 08:16:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C7C844394; Wed, 9 May 2001 08:16:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mailgate.pit.comms.marconi.com (mailgate.pit.comms.marconi.com [169.144.68.6]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52AA344381 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 08:15:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailman.pit.comms.marconi.com (mailman.pit.comms.marconi.com [169.144.2.12]) by mailgate.pit.comms.marconi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA08145 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 08:15:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from whq-msgrtr-01.pit.comms.marconi.com (whq-msgrtr-01.pit.comms.marconi.com [169.144.2.221]) by mailman.pit.comms.marconi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA10082 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 08:15:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by whq-msgrtr-01.pit.comms.marconi.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 9 May 2001 08:14:53 -0400 Message-ID: <4FBEA8857476D311A03300204840E1CF01A6F5A4@whq-msgusr-02.pit.comms.marconi.com> From: "Rosen, Brian" To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [SIP] Reminder to those who help the newbies Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 08:15:10 -0400 There has been an increase in double posting to sip and sip-implementors. If you reply to a message from the clueless, please double check to make sure your answer is directed to the correct list only: sip-implementors for current sip issues sip for new developments in sip Most of the offending questions belong on sip-implementors only. Brian _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 9 08:19:11 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id IAA04654 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 08:19:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B924C4439F; Wed, 9 May 2001 08:18:03 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mailgate.pit.comms.marconi.com (mailgate.pit.comms.marconi.com [169.144.68.6]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8863F4439D for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 08:17:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailman.pit.comms.marconi.com (mailman.pit.comms.marconi.com [169.144.2.12]) by mailgate.pit.comms.marconi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA08267; Wed, 9 May 2001 08:17:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from whq-msgrtr-01.pit.comms.marconi.com (whq-msgrtr-01.pit.comms.marconi.com [169.144.2.221]) by mailman.pit.comms.marconi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA10543; Wed, 9 May 2001 08:17:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by whq-msgrtr-01.pit.comms.marconi.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 9 May 2001 08:16:59 -0400 Message-ID: <4FBEA8857476D311A03300204840E1CF01A6F5A5@whq-msgusr-02.pit.comms.marconi.com> From: "Rosen, Brian" To: "'Gross, Gerhard'" , "SIP WG mailing list (E-mail)" Subject: RE: [SIP] AAA/SIP interaction MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 08:17:17 -0400 There is discussion within the IESG and the SIP/SIPPING chairs about where AAA discussions belong. This has not been settled, and in fact is one of the hang-ups in getting SIPPING officially underway. We are working on it. There WILL be a place to discuss these issues. Brian > -----Original Message----- > From: Gross, Gerhard [mailto:gerhard.gross@intel.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 5:22 PM > To: SIP WG mailing list (E-mail) > Subject: [SIP] AAA/SIP interaction > > > A pair of drafts have been submitted recently > concerning inter-domain AAA for SIP IP comm > sessions. This work is intended to supply > additional infrastructure to support wide- > spread and general use of SIP, including > support for policy management and billable > services. > > Messages have been posted to the SIP-AAA > list with a small amount of support but > not many comments otherwise. > > 1) Is the SIP WG too busy now to give > time to this type of work? > > 2) Is the SIPPING WG not officially started > yet? Any forecasts about when it will start > and begin to take on work items? > > Thanks! > Gery > > XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX > X X > X Gerhard W. Gross, Ph.D. X > X Intel X > X 2111 NE 25th Ave X > X Hillsboro, OR 97124-5961, USA X > X Internet Infrastructure Arch. Group X > X - Internet and Communication Lab X > X phone: (503) 264-6389 X > X fax: (503) 264-3483 X > X email: gerhard.gross@intel.com X > X X > XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX > > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 9 08:26:17 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id IAA04734 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 08:26:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86F5A443A4; Wed, 9 May 2001 08:25:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from ftpbox.mot.com (ftpbox.mot.com [129.188.136.101]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EC0444381 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 08:24:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: [from mothost.mot.com (mothost.mot.com [129.188.137.101]) by ftpbox.mot.com (ftpbox 2.1) with ESMTP id FAA14594 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 05:24:39 -0700 (MST)] Received: [from zei02exm02.cork.cig.mot.com (zei02exm02.cork.cig.mot.com [175.3.80.202]) by mothost.mot.com (MOT-mothost 2.0) with ESMTP id FAA07775 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 05:24:38 -0700 (MST)] Received: by zei02exm02.cork.cig.mot.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2651.58) id <2Z407BKB>; Wed, 9 May 2001 13:24:36 +0100 Message-ID: <13EE655665F4D311AB4D0008C789498A02A228DE@zei02exm02.cork.cig.mot.com> From: "O'Hare John-qcor190" To: "'Vivek Shrivastava'" , Anupama Chopra , sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] : SIP in 3GPP MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2651.58) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 13:24:32 +0100 The most recent versions are typically available from ftp://ftp.3gpp.org/Specs/Latest_drafts ftp://ftp.3gpp.org/Specs/Latest_drafts/23228-170.zip ftp://ftp.3gpp.org/Specs/Latest_drafts/24228-050.zip ftp://ftp.3gpp.org/Specs/Latest_drafts/24229-010.zip ftp://ftp.3gpp.org/Specs/Latest_drafts/23218-050.zip - John -----Original Message----- From: Vivek Shrivastava [mailto:vivek_shrivastava@mindtree.com] Sent: 09 May 2001 11:18 To: Anupama Chopra; sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] : SIP in 3GPP Check out 3GPP TS 23.228, 3GPP TS 24.228, 3GPP TS 24.229, 3GPP TS 23.218 -----Original Message----- From: Anupama Chopra [mailto:anupama@cdotd.ernet.in] Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 12:58 PM To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: [SIP] : SIP in 3GPP Hi, PLease let me know the documents on SIP in 3GPP. Regards Anupama _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 9 08:38:02 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id IAA04901 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 08:38:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 098C844388; Wed, 9 May 2001 08:38:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from cs.columbia.edu (cs.columbia.edu [128.59.16.20]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1698D44356 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 08:37:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bart.cs.columbia.edu (bart.cs.columbia.edu [128.59.19.191]) by cs.columbia.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA07978; Wed, 9 May 2001 08:37:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cs.columbia.edu (bart.cs.columbia.edu [128.59.19.191]) by bart.cs.columbia.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA18782; Wed, 9 May 2001 08:37:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3AF939FD.376FC3BE@cs.columbia.edu> From: Henning Schulzrinne X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anupama Chopra Cc: "sip@lists.bell-labs.com" Subject: Re: [SIP] SIP]:DEVICE INDEPENDENT PERSONAL MOBILITY AND LOCATION SERVICE References: <3AF9377F.A1EF5BB4@cdotd.ernet.in> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 08:37:17 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit See papers at http://www.cs.columbia.edu/sip. Among others, "Application-Layer Mobility using SIP" addresses this issue. Anupama Chopra wrote: > > Hi, > I was reading an article in which It was mentioned that "mobile IP > doesnot provide means of device independent personal mobility and > location service" - Can somebody put some light on this statement > as to how SIP supports it. > > Regards > Anupama > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 9 09:21:02 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA05688 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 09:21:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B37644370; Wed, 9 May 2001 09:21:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from relay1.alcatel.be (alc119.alcatel.be [195.207.101.119]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0091944361 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 09:20:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bemail04.net.alcatel.be (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay1.alcatel.be (8.10.1/8.10.1) with SMTP id f49DKuW18357; Wed, 9 May 2001 15:20:56 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from alcatel.be ([138.203.67.31]) by bemail04.net.alcatel.be (Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.7 (934.1 12-30-1999)) with SMTP id C1256A47.004949A9; Wed, 9 May 2001 15:20:29 +0200 Message-ID: <3AF943D1.D2A02452@alcatel.be> From: Leroy Suresh Organization: Alcatel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Cc: Anupama Chopra Subject: Re: [SIP] : SIP in 3GPP References: <13EE655665F4D311AB4D0008C789498A02A228DE@zei02exm02.cork.cig.mot.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 15:19:13 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You can find a more recent version of 23.228 at ftp://ftp.3gpp.org/Specs/2001-03/Rel-5/23_series/23228-500.zip Regards Suresh O'Hare John-qcor190 wrote: > > The most recent versions are typically available from > ftp://ftp.3gpp.org/Specs/Latest_drafts > > ftp://ftp.3gpp.org/Specs/Latest_drafts/23228-170.zip > ftp://ftp.3gpp.org/Specs/Latest_drafts/24228-050.zip > ftp://ftp.3gpp.org/Specs/Latest_drafts/24229-010.zip > ftp://ftp.3gpp.org/Specs/Latest_drafts/23218-050.zip > > - John > > -----Original Message----- > From: Vivek Shrivastava [mailto:vivek_shrivastava@mindtree.com] > Sent: 09 May 2001 11:18 > To: Anupama Chopra; sip@lists.bell-labs.com > Subject: RE: [SIP] : SIP in 3GPP > > Check out 3GPP TS 23.228, 3GPP TS 24.228, 3GPP TS 24.229, 3GPP TS 23.218 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anupama Chopra [mailto:anupama@cdotd.ernet.in] > Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 12:58 PM > To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com > Subject: [SIP] : SIP in 3GPP > > Hi, > PLease let me know the documents on SIP in 3GPP. > Regards > Anupama > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 9 10:05:08 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA07273 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 10:05:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A4924433B; Wed, 9 May 2001 10:05:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6C7F44336 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 10:04:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id KAA03482 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 10:08:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 9 May 2001 10:04:17 -0400 Message-ID: <9BF66EBF6BEFD942915B4D4D45C051F318036A@DYN-TX-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com> From: Steve Donovan To: Ben Campbell , Steve Donovan , Jonathan Rosenberg Cc: Rakesh Shah , "'sip@lists.bell-labs.com'" Subject: RE: [SIP] First cut review of Session Timer draft. MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 10:04:13 -0400 Ben, Thanks for the comments. See my notes below... Steve > -----Original Message----- > From: Ben Campbell [mailto:bcampbell@dynamicsoft.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 11:57 AM > To: Steve Donovan; Jonathan Rosenberg > Cc: Rakesh Shah; 'sip@lists.bell-labs.com' > Subject: [SIP] First cut review of Session Timer draft. > > > Here are my first cut comments on session-timer for the > upcoming last-call. > Most of these are minor comments. Please forgive me if I am > re-opening old > discussions, as I did not follow the original session-timer work. > > Comments referring to specific parts of the document are prefixed with > (page:paragraph) > > Global - We might need language (perhaps in security > considerations) that > recommends against using session-timer for billing purposes with out > additional corroboration. I can imagine a theft-of-service > attack where the > UAs collude in letting the session expire, but maintain the > RTP session. Any > proxy in the middle would assume the call was over. This will > not work if > the timer controls a firewall, but it could if the timer was > only used to > establish end-of-call for billing purposes. While I agree that session timer should not be used for billing, I'm not sure we want to get into the business of listing all of the things that extensions should not be used for. However, I will add some words into the early sections of the document. I propose the following: "Note that use of SIP messages, even with the session timer extension, should not be considered sufficient to determine the existence of sessions. Rogue user agents can continue media sessions even after BYE messages are exchanged. As such, the session timer extension should not be considered as a fix to SIP that enables reliable usage billing." > > Global - (nit) there are several sections where the normative > language is > not clear. For example, it often says "X does Y" instead of > "X MUST|MAY|etc > do Y." Most of these are in the early descriptions, so > perhaps the intent is > to reserve normative language for the specific behavior > descriptions later > in the draft. If that is so, then it is not consistent. I will strive to make it more consistent. However, any where that a MUST|SHOULD|MAY|ect appears should be considered normative. Please let me know if there are specific instances where use of the normative language in the earlier sections of the document is not consistent with the protocol description section. > > 3:2-A proxy can lower but not increase the expiration time. > Jonathan brought > up the issue of a DoS attack using insanely small > expirations. If a proxy > cannot increase the expiration, it at least needs the option > of rejecting > requests with expiration values below a threshold. This should be addressed in my proposal to come to consensus on Jonathan's thread. > > 3:4 - (Typo) Sentence "They UAS MAY..." should read "The UAS MAY..." Changed... > > 3:4 - (Minor) I am not sure I see the value in pushing > responsibility back > to a supporting UAC, if the UAC did not request the timer in the first > place. Why not just let the UAS deal with it, if the UAS is > the element that > wishes to use a timer? At least it might make sense to say > that the UAS must > insert the Required header IF it wishes the UAC to handle the > re-invites. It is a little more straight forward to specify it this way. The added overhead of having the UAC to the refreshes should not be enough to worry about. It is true that it can work in other ways, but I would like to restrain from making changes to procedures that work, given that this draft is pretty mature and there are likely to be implementations out there that follow the current definition. > > 4:5 What happens if the UAC does _NOT_ include a > Session-Expires header on > the re-invite? I assume everyone resets their timers with the original > values? Or does timer processing cease? Then the re-INVITE is not a session refresh and has no effect on an existing session timer request. There is no requirement to include the session-expires header on all re-INVITEs. I will add the following wording to the draft: "While it will generally be more efficient for supporting UAs to include the session-timer header in all re-INVITEs associated with a timed session, it is not required. Re-INVITEs during a timed session that are sent for reasons other than refreshing the session time are allowed to not contain the session-timer header. The existing session timer is not changed if a re-INVITE is received without a session-timer header." > > 5:2 - Doesn't option of absolute time imply an assumption > that all elements > have their clocks reasonably synchronized? I think this has already been addressed by other responses (date header...). > > 5:3 - Again, we need to allow elements to reject expirations below a > configured threshold. I agree. This is addressed in my response to Jonathan's proposal. > > 10:2 - How can a proxy know that it is the closes proxy to > the UAC that > cares about the timer? Except in the trivial case where the > proxy is the > closest to the UAC period, this seems problematic. I think Adam has already addressed this in a previous response. > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 9 10:17:03 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA07836 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 10:17:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B2064439C; Wed, 9 May 2001 10:17:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F125E44399 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 10:16:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id KAA03748; Wed, 9 May 2001 10:19:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 9 May 2001 10:15:59 -0400 Message-ID: <9BF66EBF6BEFD942915B4D4D45C051F314A7AD@DYN-TX-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com> From: Robert Sparks To: "'Itamar Gilad'" , "'SIP List'" Subject: RE: [SIP] REFER before INVITE is completed MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1255" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 10:15:57 -0400 The session doesn't exist until the INVITE transaction completes, so at best UA1 would treat that REFER as an out-of-session REFER. If the REFER had the tags UA2 planned to place in the INVITE, it would get 481'ed. Why would UA2 ever want to do this? RjS > -----Original Message----- > From: Itamar Gilad [mailto:ItamarG@tlv.radvision.com] > Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 2:48 AM > To: 'SIP List' > Subject: [SIP] REFER before INVITE is completed > > > Can a REFER transaction occur before the INVITE that > initiated the call is > completed? For example: > > > UA1 UA2 > | INVITE | > |--------------------------->| > | | > | REFER | > |<---------------------------| > | | > | 202 (of REFER) | > |----------------------------| > | | > | 200 (of INVITE) | > |<---------------------------| > | | > | ACK | > |--------------------------->| > | | > | | > UA2 continues with REFER... > > > Itamar Gilad > RADVISION > itamarg@tlv.radvision.com 24 Raul Wallenberg St. > tel: +972 3 7659938 Building D > mob: +972 56 429938 Tel-Aviv 69719 > fax: +972 3 6472637 Israel > > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 9 10:36:02 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA08837 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 10:36:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A717244362; Wed, 9 May 2001 10:36:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8772C4433B for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 10:35:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id KAA04018; Wed, 9 May 2001 10:38:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 9 May 2001 10:34:51 -0400 Message-ID: <9BF66EBF6BEFD942915B4D4D45C051F318036C@DYN-TX-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com> From: Steve Donovan To: "'Mary Barnes'" , Steve Donovan , Jonathan Rosenberg Cc: Rakesh Shah , "'sip@lists.bell-labs.com'" , Ben Campbell Subject: RE: [SIP] First cut review of Session Timer draft MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 10:34:48 -0400 Mary, Thanks for the review and feedback. See my responses below. Steve -----Original Message----- From: Mary Barnes [mailto:mbarnes@nortelnetworks.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 10:43 PM To: Steve Donovan; Jonathan Rosenberg Cc: Rakesh Shah; 'sip@lists.bell-labs.com'; 'bcampbell@dynamicsoft.com' Subject: RE: [SIP] First cut review of Session Timer draft Hi all, I also have a few first cut comments on the draft for the last-call(for which Rakesh has just made the WG announcement). I've followed Ben's formatting convention and also use " " to indicate exact text references/proposals: 3:4 - In the middle of the paragraph, there is a statement: " To make sure the UAC is aware it must actually do them, the UAS MUST add a Require header to the 200 class response, with the tag "timer", when the request contains a Require header with tag "timer". " --> The last clause of the sentence should be... " when the request contains a Supported header with tag "timer". " SRD> Agreed, change made. 9:1 (Section 5) Propose that the statement "In general, proxies which ask for session timers will record-route, since they won't receive refresheds if they don't." be changed to something a bit stronger (i.e. a bold RECOMMENDATION) such as: "It is RECOMMENDED that the proxy include the record-route header if it wants to receive the refreshes." SRD> I'm not sure I see the value of changing the wording. It has the same effect either way. Anyone implementing a well behaving proxy will understand the need to record-route. We have no control over badly behaving proxies... 12:Table 3 - (minor formatting) Propose line spacing between table entries. It can be a bit difficult to read since the Behavior spans multiple lines. Another suggestion would be to have the entries in the same order in which the scenarios were discussed in the preceeding paragraphs. SRD> I'll look into this... In addition I have a couple more general recommendations on the Session Timer one of which is in line with Ben's recommendation about a strong statement on NOT to use Session Timer for billing. - Per the recent thread on the use of Session Timer for Pre-paid (you can view this as a billing variant, but I see it more as a Service or Application requiring a general purpose timing mechanism), I would suggest adding a statement along the lines as follows just before the NAT/firewall control paragraph on page 2: "The Session Timer SHOULD NOT be used for service implementations (e.g. Billing, Pre-paid, etc.). Session Timer is not a general purpose network timing mechanism, but is more specific to being able to free up resources for some pathological scenarios. Indeed, the Session Timer could be viewed as much more of a network "maintenance" mechanism than a general purpose network timer primitive mechanism." SRD> Well, I'm not sure I would characterize all uses of session timer as pathological. :) I'm not comfortable with putting wording as strong as you propose into the draft. There is already wording indicating the purpose of the extension that should be sufficient. - 2:5 In addition, I would suggest at a minimum to "soften" the endorsement of session timer for NAT/Firewall control. One suggestion would be rewording the paragraph to be: "Another possible application of the session timer may be in NAT and firewall control." In line with this suggestion, I would think since the referenced draft is still an ongoing project of the WG that it may not be prudent to include this reference in this document going forward. SRD> It will be necessary to do this for the draft to advance to an RFC. A more radical suggestion would be to remove the NAT and firewall paragraph altogether. The NAT/firewall draft references Session Timer and I think that would be sufficient (i.e the circular references are unnecessary). In additon, my view would be that if any potential application of the Session Timer were discussed further in this draft, it would be the use for the recovery mechanism to accomplish soft stated SIP sessions (referenced page 2, paragraph 3), Particularly since this is the substantiation given for using INVITES rather than a lighter weight mechansim such as the INFO ping (which reduces end to end messaging and simplifies the processing for the mechanism). SRD> All good suggestions, but I'm not sure it will significantly improve the overall quality of the draft. The NAT/firewall discussion is in there as one example use of the extension. While it is true that there are other uses that could be included to motivate the need for the extension, making these kinds of changes to an already pretty mature draft will just length the time necessary to get it promoted to RFC. Regards, Mary H. Barnes mbarnes@nortelnetworks.com IMS Solutions Standards Strategy 972-684-5432 -----Original Message----- From: Ben Campbell [mailto:bcampbell@dynamicsoft.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 11:57 AM To: Steve Donovan; Jonathan Rosenberg Cc: Rakesh Shah; 'sip@lists.bell-labs.com' Subject: [SIP] First cut review of Session Timer draft. Here are my first cut comments on session-timer for the upcoming last-call. Most of these are minor comments. Please forgive me if I am re-opening old discussions, as I did not follow the original session-timer work. Comments referring to specific parts of the document are prefixed with (page:paragraph) Global - We might need language (perhaps in security considerations) that recommends against using session-timer for billing purposes with out additional corroboration. I can imagine a theft-of-service attack where the UAs collude in letting the session expire, but maintain the RTP session. Any proxy in the middle would assume the call was over. This will not work if the timer controls a firewall, but it could if the timer was only used to establish end-of-call for billing purposes. Global - (nit) there are several sections where the normative language is not clear. For example, it often says "X does Y" instead of "X MUST|MAY|etc do Y." Most of these are in the early descriptions, so perhaps the intent is to reserve normative language for the specific behavior descriptions later in the draft. If that is so, then it is not consistent. 3:2-A proxy can lower but not increase the expiration time. Jonathan brought up the issue of a DoS attack using insanely small expirations. If a proxy cannot increase the expiration, it at least needs the option of rejecting requests with expiration values below a threshold. 3:4 - (Typo) Sentence "They UAS MAY..." should read "The UAS MAY..." 3:4 - (Minor) I am not sure I see the value in pushing responsibility back to a supporting UAC, if the UAC did not request the timer in the first place. Why not just let the UAS deal with it, if the UAS is the element that wishes to use a timer? At least it might make sense to say that the UAS must insert the Required header IF it wishes the UAC to handle the re-invites. 4:5 What happens if the UAC does _NOT_ include a Session-Expires header on the re-invite? I assume everyone resets their timers with the original values? Or does timer processing cease? 5:2 - Doesn't option of absolute time imply an assumption that all elements have their clocks reasonably synchronized? 5:3 - Again, we need to allow elements to reject expirations below a configured threshold. 10:2 - How can a proxy know that it is the closes proxy to the UAC that cares about the timer? Except in the trivial case where the proxy is the closest to the UAC period, this seems problematic. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 9 10:39:02 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA09120 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 10:39:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A640A443AC; Wed, 9 May 2001 10:39:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 315E2443AA for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 10:38:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id KAA04098; Wed, 9 May 2001 10:41:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 9 May 2001 10:37:54 -0400 Message-ID: <9BF66EBF6BEFD942915B4D4D45C051F318036D@DYN-TX-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com> From: Steve Donovan To: "'brett@broadsoft.com'" , sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] First cut review of Session Timer draft. MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 10:37:53 -0400 > -----Original Message----- > From: Brett Tate [mailto:brett@broadsoft.com] > Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 7:06 PM > To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com > Subject: RE: [SIP] First cut review of Session Timer draft. > > > > Comments referring to specific parts of the document are > prefixed with > > (page:paragraph) > > > > > > > 3:4 - (Minor) I am not sure I see the value in pushing > > responsibility back > > to a supporting UAC, if the UAC did not request the timer > in the first > > place. Why not just let the UAS deal with it, if the UAS is > > the element that > > wishes to use a timer? > > I agree. However the text is mainly to deal > with proxies adding the "Session-Expires and > Require timer" for functionality that it > knows is supported by the UAC. Hopefully > a UAS isn't requiring it of the UAC when UAS > is the one that wants it and could have done > it. See my response to Ben's note. > > > At least it might make sense to say > > that the UAS must > > insert the Required header IF it wishes the UAC to handle the > > re-invites. > > It does elsewhere in the document: > section 5.2 Case 1 and section 6 paragraph 2. > > > > > 4:5 What happens if the UAC does _NOT_ include a > > Session-Expires header on > > the re-invite? I assume everyone resets their timers with > the original > > values? Or does timer processing cease? > > Timer processing ceases unless re-added > by proxy or UAS. No, the timer is not effected. I have added wording to make this clear. > > > > > 5:2 - Doesn't option of absolute time imply an assumption > > that all elements > > have their clocks reasonably synchronized? > > The Date header should be included to avoid > the date/time synchronization problem. > > > > > 5:3 - Again, we need to allow elements to reject expirations below a > > configured threshold. > > I agree. And if possible, lets allow the minimum > value to be returned with a standard format so that > the request could be sent again hopefully without > having to get the users and proxy admins involved > for success. > > > 10:2 - How can a proxy know that it is the closes proxy to > > the UAC that > > cares about the timer? Except in the trivial case where the > > proxy is the > > closest to the UAC period, this seems problematic. > > I agree. The text should reflect that the first > proxy that receives the final response and wants > the Session-Expires to be honored should add > (if not present) the remembered Session-Expires > and Require header containing "timer". > This is already there. See my response to Adam's note. > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 9 10:56:30 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA10163 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 10:56:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBD7B44370; Wed, 9 May 2001 10:11:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00DA34436D for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 10:10:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id KAA03626; Wed, 9 May 2001 10:14:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 9 May 2001 10:10:44 -0400 Message-ID: <9BF66EBF6BEFD942915B4D4D45C051F318036B@DYN-TX-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com> From: Steve Donovan To: "'Adam Roach (EUS)'" , Ben Campbell , Steve Donovan , Jonathan Rosenberg Cc: Rakesh Shah , "'sip@lists.bell-labs.com'" Subject: RE: [SIP] First cut review of Session Timer draft. MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 10:10:43 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: Adam Roach (EUS) [mailto:Adam.Roach@am1.ericsson.se] Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 5:55 AM To: Ben Campbell; Steve Donovan; Jonathan Rosenberg Cc: Rakesh Shah; 'sip@lists.bell-labs.com' Subject: RE: [SIP] First cut review of Session Timer draft. Comments on the comments... :) /a > -----Original Message----- > From: Ben Campbell [mailto:bcampbell@dynamicsoft.com] > > Here are my first cut comments on session-timer for the > upcoming last-call. > Most of these are minor comments. Please forgive me if I am > re-opening old > discussions, as I did not follow the original session-timer work. > > 5:2 - Doesn't option of absolute time imply an assumption > that all elements > have their clocks reasonably synchronized? 3:1 - "Any entity that inserts a Session-Expires header with an absolute time MUST also insert a Date header into the message. This ensures proper operation for devices that do not have access to absolute time." Perhaps this sentance doesn't have enough hoopla about it, since I've had to point it out numerous times to different people. To those of you who have overlooked it (or even those you who haven't): do you have any suggestions about how to make it stand out more? Does it need better proximity to the paragraph explictly allowing absolute times (in section 5)? SRD> I have made it a paragraph of it's own (in the same place). Hopefully this will make it stand out. > 10:2 - How can a proxy know that it is the closes proxy to > the UAC that > cares about the timer? Except in the trivial case where the > proxy is the > closest to the UAC period, this seems problematic. Because the *first* proxy that cares will *add* a "Session-Expires" header. Other proxies will merely notice (and occasionally adjust) it. So, if you see no "Session-Expires," you're the first node that cares. If you don't, you aren't. A clarification to this effect would probably be useful... SRD> It's already there, in 10:2 - "...For the proxy closest to the UAS, the final response to the \INVITE does not contain a Session-Expires header..." /a _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 9 12:16:05 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA14533 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:16:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6EBD44399; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:16:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C7234433B for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:15:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id MAA06694 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:19:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:15:26 -0400 Message-ID: From: Sudhir Gupta To: "'sip@lists.bell-labs.com'" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_000_01C0D8A3.40DFE397" Subject: [SIP] Homepage Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 12:15:19 -0400 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01C0D8A3.40DFE397 Content-Type: text/plain Hi! You've got to see this page! It's really cool ;O) ------_=_NextPart_000_01C0D8A3.40DFE397 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Description: Stripped attachment information This Email contained an attachment file named homepage.HTML.vbs. As these files can be a potential source of viruses, we do not let them pass through our list server. For any questions please send mail to help@research.bell-labs.com ------_=_NextPart_000_01C0D8A3.40DFE397-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 9 12:19:21 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA14716 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:19:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E537A443B2; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:19:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB701443A3 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:18:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id MAA07450 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:22:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:18:19 -0400 Message-ID: From: Sudhir Gupta To: "'sip@lists.bell-labs.com'" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_000_01C0D8A3.A7DF4651" Subject: [SIP] Homepage Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 12:17:57 -0400 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01C0D8A3.A7DF4651 Content-Type: text/plain Hi! You've got to see this page! It's really cool ;O) ------_=_NextPart_000_01C0D8A3.A7DF4651 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Description: Stripped attachment information This Email contained an attachment file named homepage.HTML.vbs. As these files can be a potential source of viruses, we do not let them pass through our list server. For any questions please send mail to help@research.bell-labs.com ------_=_NextPart_000_01C0D8A3.A7DF4651-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 9 12:23:06 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA14921 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:23:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49505443B1; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:23:07 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE7D944381 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:22:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id MAA08481 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:26:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:22:54 -0400 Message-ID: From: Rakesh Shah To: "SIPWG Mailing List (E-mail)" Importance: high X-Priority: 1 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C0D8A4.4B14D0E9" Subject: [SIP] HOMEPAGE is a VIRUS! Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 12:22:49 -0400 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0D8A4.4B14D0E9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This is going through our office. Please immediately delete any message with a subject line of HOMEPAGE. Do not open the attachment. Regards, Rakesh _______________________________ Mr. Rakesh C. Shah Project Coordinator dynamicsoft Inc. 72 Eagle Rock Avenue 1st Floor East Hanover, N.J. 07936 (973) 952-5066 direct (201) 214-6084 cell (973) 952-5000 main (973) 952-5050 fax rshah@dynamicsoft.com ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0D8A4.4B14D0E9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
This is going through our office. Please immediately delete any message with a subject line of HOMEPAGE. Do not open the attachment.

Regards,

Rakesh
_______________________________
Mr. Rakesh C. Shah
Project Coordinator
dynamicsoft Inc.
72 Eagle Rock Avenue
1st Floor
East Hanover, N.J. 07936
(973) 952-5066 direct
(201) 214-6084 cell
(973) 952-5000 main
(973) 952-5050 fax
rshah@dynamicsoft.com

 
------_=_NextPart_001_01C0D8A4.4B14D0E9-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 9 12:27:15 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA15158 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:27:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FCA5443BE; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:24:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from ix.netcorps.com (ix.netcorps.com [207.1.125.106]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BB7F44381 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:23:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from indigosw.com (194-78-202-25.pro.turboline.skynet.be [194.78.202.25]) by ix.netcorps.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA29284; Wed, 9 May 2001 09:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3AF96F02.3556F53F@indigosw.com> From: dENIS Vandersteene Organization: Indigo Software X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: fr-BE,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "'sip@lists.bell-labs.com'" Subject: Re: [SIP] Homepage References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 18:23:30 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit WARNING!!!! This message containis a virus!!! Please do not open the attachement. dENIS Sudhir Gupta wrote: > Hi! > > You've got to see this page! It's really cool ;O) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > This Email contained an attachment file named homepage.HTML.vbs. > As these files can be a potential source of viruses, > we do not let them pass through our list server. > For any questions please send mail to help@research.bell-labs.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 9 12:30:29 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA15444 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:30:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 998B9443C4; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:25:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mail.inetmail.att.net (mailhost1.inetmail.att.net [204.127.132.33]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94EFD44381 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:24:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from email.masconit.com ([12.41.17.214]) by mail.inetmail.att.net (mtiagic01) with ESMTP id <20010509162415gi128292e8e>; Wed, 9 May 2001 16:24:15 +0000 Received: from ashok (RANJIT [12.41.17.196]) by email.masconit.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id JB7PP471; Wed, 9 May 2001 11:31:36 -0500 Message-ID: <01db01c0d8a5$4f0e13e0$c411290c@masconit.com> Reply-To: "Ranjit Avasarala" From: "Ranjit Avasarala" To: , References: <922DF541D5445D1168050005B81ECAE5@sachin_karkala.indya.com> Subject: Re: [SIP] need some info abt SIP proxy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:30:07 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sachin see my comments inline... Regards Ranjit Mascon Communication Technologies http://www.masconit.com ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 4:42 AM Subject: [SIP] need some info abt SIP proxy hi, i'm trying to implement SIP proxy server, i have few questions and hope to get the answeres ASAP :) 1) when ever a INVITE request comes to the proxy, first should it check for whether the user is registered for the proxy? the user does not register with proxy but registers with registrar. say if u have both registrar and proxy residing in same machine then u can say user registers with proxy. if so.. the user should also get registerd in all the proxies the mesage gets routed? proxies do the routing 2)How the billing is implemented in a proxy? 3) I guess its always two proxies that is required to establish a session... is that true? if not kindly explain. i don't think proxies establish any sessions. It will be thw user agents that will establish sessions. 4) how exactly the message gets routed to its destination ( i.e. how the proxy comes to know destination IP address..etc)? may be proxy could use location service ( location servers) to find the location of the UAS. thanks in advance :) Sachin K Enjoy being an Indyan at http://www.indya.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 9 12:33:01 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA15580 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:33:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDDCB443B9; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:31:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mail.inetmail.att.net (mailhost1.inetmail.att.net [204.127.132.33]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E796544399 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:30:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from email.masconit.com ([12.41.17.214]) by mail.inetmail.att.net (mtiagic01) with ESMTP id <20010509163009gi128290m6e>; Wed, 9 May 2001 16:30:09 +0000 Received: from ashok (RANJIT [12.41.17.196]) by email.masconit.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id JB7PP48A; Wed, 9 May 2001 11:37:30 -0500 Message-ID: <025501c0d8a6$221ef9c0$c411290c@masconit.com> Reply-To: "Ranjit Avasarala" From: "Ranjit Avasarala" To: "Sudhir Gupta" , References: Subject: Re: [SIP] Homepage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:36:01 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hey its a virus... Regards Ranjit Mascon Communication Technologies http://www.masconit.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Sudhir Gupta To: Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 11:17 AM Subject: [SIP] Homepage Hi! You've got to see this page! It's really cool ;O) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This Email contained an attachment file named homepage.HTML.vbs. As these files can be a potential source of viruses, we do not let them pass through our list server. For any questions please send mail to help@research.bell-labs.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 9 12:35:40 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA15724 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:35:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C780E443D4; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:32:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from cs.columbia.edu (cs.columbia.edu [128.59.16.20]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC770443D2 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:31:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cs.columbia.edu (bart.cs.columbia.edu [128.59.19.191]) by cs.columbia.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA29265; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:31:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3AF970FA.1394F2BD@cs.columbia.edu> From: "Henning G. Schulzrinne" Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Columbia University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rakesh Shah Cc: "SIPWG Mailing List (E-mail)" Subject: Re: [SIP] HOMEPAGE is a VIRUS! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 12:31:54 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Rakesh Shah wrote: > > This is going through our office. Please immediately delete any > message with a subject line of HOMEPAGE. Do not open the attachment. I just hope that folks designing SIP software will avoid the design mistakes made by email software vendors. Just imagine calls to every one in your address book, at 2 am... -- Henning Schulzrinne http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~hgs _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 9 12:41:21 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA15920 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:41:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E785443DF; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:35:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from newman.frascone.com (frascone.com [216.62.83.25]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 349D4443DD for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:34:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 18690 invoked by uid 500); 9 May 2001 16:40:49 -0000 From: David Frascone To: dENIS Vandersteene Cc: "'sip@lists.bell-labs.com'" Subject: Re: [SIP] Homepage Message-ID: <20010509114048.A17766@newman.frascone.com> Mail-Followup-To: dENIS Vandersteene , "'sip@lists.bell-labs.com'" References: <3AF96F02.3556F53F@indigosw.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <3AF96F02.3556F53F@indigosw.com>; from dENIS@indigosw.com on Wed, May 09, 2001 at 06:23:30PM +0200 X-encrypt-payload: no Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:40:48 -0500 Don't worry. The mailing list software was smart enough to delete it. On Wed, May 09, 2001 at 06:23:30PM +0200, dENIS Vandersteene wrote: > > WARNING!!!! > > This message containis a virus!!! Please do not open the attachement. > > dENIS > > Sudhir Gupta wrote: > > > Hi! > > > > You've got to see this page! It's really cool ;O) > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > This Email contained an attachment file named homepage.HTML.vbs. > > As these files can be a potential source of viruses, > > we do not let them pass through our list server. > > For any questions please send mail to help@research.bell-labs.com > > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 9 12:49:22 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA16389 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:49:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70BB544389; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:49:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com [161.44.11.97]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BA2A44389 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:48:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dingdong.cisco.com (dingdong.cisco.com [64.102.17.16]) by rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id f49GlLm12438; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:47:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bgracely-pc (bgracely-isdn1.cisco.com [10.83.118.50]) by dingdong.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id AFU50093; Wed, 9 May 2001 12:48:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20010509124153.00a37a00@dingdong.cisco.com> X-Sender: bgracely@dingdong.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 To: "Ranjit Avasarala" , , From: Brian Gracely Subject: Re: [SIP] need some info abt SIP proxy In-Reply-To: <01db01c0d8a5$4f0e13e0$c411290c@masconit.com> References: <922DF541D5445D1168050005B81ECAE5@sachin_karkala.indya.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 12:47:35 -0400 comments inline BG 2001 -0500, Ranjit Avasarala wrote: >Sachin see my comments inline... > >Regards >Ranjit >Mascon Communication Technologies >http://www.masconit.com > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 4:42 AM >Subject: [SIP] need some info abt SIP proxy > > >hi, >i'm trying to implement SIP proxy server, i have >few questions and hope to get the answeres >ASAP :) >1) when ever a INVITE request comes to the >proxy, first should it check for whether the >user is registered for the proxy? > >the user does not register with proxy but registers with registrar. >say if u have both registrar and proxy residing in same machine then u can >say user registers with proxy. > >if so.. the user should also get registerd in >all the proxies the mesage gets routed? > >proxies do the routing ## not all devices (such as SIP-GW) will register. Proxies should also be able to handle INVITE messages from devices that are not registered. The logic by which they decide to "trust" that end-point is implementation specific. >2)How the billing is implemented in a proxy? ## billing or accounting? accounting could be done based on having Record-Route enable and creating Start & Stop records on the 200OK and BYE. Billing is beyond the scope of SIP as it involves formatting the records, rate-tarrifs, etc.. ## btw - it's not mandated that the SIP Proxy even do accounting, in fact many in the industry believe that it should not be done for IP to IP calls (no PSTN involved) and only done at the SIP-GW where it touches the PSTN. this is mostly a religious argument, but there is nothing in the protocol which prevents you from doing accounting in either place or both. >3) I guess its always two proxies that is >required to establish a session... is that true? >if not kindly explain. > >i don't think proxies establish any sessions. It will be thw user agents >that will establish sessions. ## a session can be directly established between two UAs. Proxies provide a routing function. >4) how exactly the message gets routed to its >destination ( i.e. how the proxy comes to know >destination IP address..etc)? > >may be proxy could use location service ( location servers) to find the >location of the UAS. ## Location-Server is one "function" and this is implemented differently by different people. In essence, you're asking how should you find the thing that knows about where a user is. This could be ENUM, a Subscriber-DB (Oracle, SQL, etc..) a Redirect-Server fronting a Least-Cost-Routing engine, etc.. >thanks in advance :) >Sachin K > >Enjoy being an Indyan at http://www.indya.com > >_______________________________________________ >This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. >The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, >and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. >To subscribe to it, send mail to >sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > > >_______________________________________________ >This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. >The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, >and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. >To subscribe to it, send mail to >sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 9 15:02:09 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id PAA21662 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 15:02:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0202044378; Wed, 9 May 2001 15:02:08 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com [161.44.11.97]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E00F744376 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 15:01:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dingdong.cisco.com (dingdong.cisco.com [64.102.17.16]) by rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id f49J0PX23412; Wed, 9 May 2001 15:00:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cisco.com (rtp-xdm2.cisco.com [64.102.17.79]) by dingdong.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id AFU53845 (AUTH byerly); Wed, 9 May 2001 15:01:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3AF99419.33DFB0F6@cisco.com> From: Bryan Byerly X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51C-CISCOENG [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Watson Cc: "'Steve Levy'" , sip@lists.bell-labs.com, byerly@cisco.com, jryang@cisco.com References: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------3AEA7C734F0723CFE65E6C8D" Subject: [SIP] Powerpoint presentation of Diversion I-D Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 15:01:47 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3AEA7C734F0723CFE65E6C8D Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------C0C215976A8DFB6494EC0481" --------------C0C215976A8DFB6494EC0481 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mark, Mark Watson wrote: > Any chance someone can point us at the presentations mentioned below ? Absolutely. Please see the attached presentation of the Diversion I-D. > I thought that the Diversion draft had been dropped - the list at > http://www.softarmor.com/sipwg/draftstatus/sip-draftstatus.html > indicates 'General dissent at IETF49'. As I recall, the SIP WG chairs pressured the SIP WG to not accept additional work items. Presentations such as the Diversion I-D were given 3 minute slots to briefly touch on new draft ideas. There was not time for discussion of the drafts and any discussion which was started was abruptly cut off by the SIP WG chairs. Therefore, I'd definitely say that the softarmor site is overstating the WG reaction. >Nevertheless, I would agree with a requirement to deal with the case where calls encounter diversion before entering the SIP network (i.e. in another network). >Calls which encounter diversion within the SIP network will use the existing SIP mechanisms - redirect, REFER etc., but if the diversion happens before the SIP >network ... Right, I've yet to see an approach ala RFC3708 that provides the desired information to the called user agent service without requiring extensive called user agent service-specific policy configuration in the carrier's gateways/nodes. Such an approach leaves the door open for namespace collisions (when separate carrier customers' have collisions in local customer policy namespaces). Further, imagine trying to interop domains using different syntactical conventions ala RFC3708. You would have to install translation proxies just to re-write the Request-URI according to local domain naming conventions. All of this mess can be avoided by supporting Diversion. > Provision of any identity information associated with the diverting > party, though, would need to meet the same privacy and authenticity > requirements as any other identity information as described in the > privacy draft. Any future Diversion proposals should look at using the > capabilities defined there, rather than adding a new header for this > information. Interesting idea... we'd thought about taking a header hiding approach early on. We'll have to consider privacy interaction further. thanks for your help! Bryan Bryan J. Byerly byerly@cisco.com > Regards, > > Mark Watson > Nortel Networks > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Steve Levy [mailto:stlevy@cisco.com] > > Sent: 08 May 2001 17:11 > > To: Igor Slepchin; 'Bryan Byerly'; patrick.mourot@online.fr > > Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com; sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu > > Subject: RE: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of date > > > > > > Hi Igor, > > > > It may help you if you get to take a look at some of the > > presentations from > > the SIP Summit held last week in Dallas. The diversion header > > was mentioned > > by a number of the presenters as a way of assisting in network > > interoperability and helping enable enhanced services. > > > > Steve > > > > At 03:54 PM 5/7/01 -0400, Igor Slepchin wrote: > > >A motivation section and examples of functionality that require > this > > >extension are conspicuously lacking in the current draft. > > Adding them may > > >help me understand why this draft is needed in the first place. > > > > > >--- > > >Igor Slepchin > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: Bryan Byerly [mailto:byerly@cisco.com] > > >> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 12:39 PM > > >> To: patrick.mourot@online.fr > > >> Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com; sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu; > > >> byerly@cisco.com > > >> Subject: Re: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of date > > >> > > >> > > >> Hi Patrick, > > >> > > >> There is an updated version of the I-D available. I'll > > post it to the > > >> list shortly. > > >> > > >> thanks, > > >> Bryan > > >> > > >> patrick.mourot@online.fr wrote: > > >> > > >> > Sirs, > > >> > > > >> > The following I-D "draft-levy-sip-diversion-01.txt" is now > > >> out of date. > > >> > Could someone give us the future of that I-D: > > >> > -No longer used > > >> > -new version soon available, > > >> > -else ? > > >> > > > >> > TIA for your response, > > >> > > > >> > Patrick > > >> > > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > >> > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > > >> > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss > > implementation, > > >> > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > > >> > To subscribe to it, send mail to > > >> > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" > > >> in the body. > > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > > >> The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss > implementation, > > >> and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > > >> To subscribe to it, send mail to > > >> sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" > > in the body. > > >> > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > > >The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > > >and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > > >To subscribe to it, send mail to > > >sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in > > the body. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > > To subscribe to it, send mail to > > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the > body. > > --------------C0C215976A8DFB6494EC0481 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Mark,

Mark Watson wrote:

Any chance someone can point us at the presentations mentioned below ?
Absolutely.  Please see the attached presentation of the Diversion I-D.
I thought that the Diversion draft had been dropped - the list at http://www.softarmor.com/sipwg/draftstatus/sip-draftstatus.html indicates 'General dissent at IETF49'.
As I recall, the SIP WG chairs pressured the SIP WG to not accept additional work items.  Presentations such as the Diversion I-D were given 3 minute slots to briefly touch on new draft ideas.  There was not time for discussion of the drafts and any discussion which was started was abruptly cut off by the SIP WG chairs.  Therefore, I'd definitely say that the softarmor site is overstating the WG reaction.

>Nevertheless, I would agree with a requirement to deal with the case where calls encounter diversion before entering the SIP network (i.e. in another network). >Calls which encounter diversion within the SIP network will use the existing SIP mechanisms - redirect, REFER etc., but if the diversion happens before the SIP >network ...

Right, I've yet to see an approach ala RFC3708 that provides the desired information to the called user agent service without requiring extensive called user agent service-specific policy configuration in the carrier's gateways/nodes.  Such an approach leaves the door open for namespace collisions (when separate carrier customers' have collisions in local customer policy namespaces).  Further, imagine trying to interop domains using different syntactical conventions ala RFC3708.  You would have to install translation proxies just to re-write the Request-URI according to local domain naming conventions.

All of this mess can be avoided by supporting Diversion.
 

Provision of any identity information associated with the diverting party, though, would need to meet the same privacy and authenticity requirements as any other identity information as described in the privacy draft. Any future Diversion proposals should look at using the capabilities defined there, rather than adding a new header for this information.
Interesting idea...  we'd thought about taking a header hiding approach early on.  We'll have to consider privacy interaction further.

thanks for your help!
Bryan

Bryan J. Byerly
byerly@cisco.com

Regards,

Mark Watson
Nortel Networks

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Levy [mailto:stlevy@cisco.com]
> Sent: 08 May 2001 17:11
> To: Igor Slepchin; 'Bryan Byerly'; patrick.mourot@online.fr
> Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com; sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu
> Subject: RE: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of date
>
>
> Hi Igor,
>
> It may help you if you get to take a look at some of the
> presentations from
> the SIP Summit held last week in Dallas. The diversion header
> was mentioned
> by a number of the presenters as a way of assisting in network
> interoperability and helping enable enhanced services.
>
> Steve
>
> At 03:54 PM 5/7/01 -0400, Igor Slepchin wrote:
> >A motivation section and examples of functionality that require this
> >extension are conspicuously lacking in the current draft.
> Adding them may
> >help me understand why this draft is needed in the first place.
> >
> >---
> >Igor Slepchin
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Bryan Byerly [mailto:byerly@cisco.com]
> >> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 12:39 PM
> >> To: patrick.mourot@online.fr
> >> Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com; sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu;
> >> byerly@cisco.com
> >> Subject: Re: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of date
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi Patrick,
> >>
> >> There is an updated version of the I-D available.  I'll
> post it to the
> >> list shortly.
> >>
> >> thanks,
> >> Bryan
> >>
> >> patrick.mourot@online.fr wrote:
> >>
> >> > Sirs,
> >> >
> >> > The following I-D "draft-levy-sip-diversion-01.txt" is now
> >> out of date.
> >> > Could someone give us the future of that I-D:
> >> > -No longer used
> >> > -new version soon available,
> >> > -else ?
> >> >
> >> > TIA for your response,
> >> >
> >> > Patrick
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol.
> >> > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss
> implementation,
> >> > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip.
> >> > To subscribe to it, send mail to
> >> > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe"
> >> in the body.
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol.
> >> The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation,
> >> and to receive advice on understanding existing sip.
> >> To subscribe to it, send mail to
> >> sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe"
> in the body.
> >>
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol.
> >The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation,
> >and to receive advice on understanding existing sip.
> >To subscribe to it, send mail to
> >sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in
> the body.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol.
> The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation,
> and to receive advice on understanding existing sip.
> To subscribe to it, send mail to
> sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body.
>

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The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 9 15:06:09 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id PAA21830 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 15:06:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14C0B443A5; Wed, 9 May 2001 15:06:09 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from albatross-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se (albatross-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [194.237.142.116]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F14A44399 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 15:05:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailserver1.ericsson.se (mailserver1.ericsson.se [136.225.152.91]) by albatross.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.11.0/8.11.0/WIREfire-1.3) with ESMTP id f49J5CN28774; Wed, 9 May 2001 21:05:12 +0200 (MEST) Received: from lmf.ericsson.se (EWUwsp001624wss.sd.us.am.ericsson.se [142.133.141.40]) by mailserver1.ericsson.se (8.9.3/8.9.3/eri-1.0) with ESMTP id VAA13827; Wed, 9 May 2001 21:05:22 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <3AF995B2.D07F97A9@lmf.ericsson.se> From: Gonzalo Camarillo Organization: Oy L M Ericsson Ab X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fred Peyrard Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: Re: [SIP] Call vs CallLeg, References: <20010509105641.3670.cpmta@c000.muc.cp.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 22:08:34 +0300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, Actually this happens when ISUP overlap signalling is mapped to SIP. Regards, Gonzalo Fred Peyrard wrote: > > Hi, > > When reading the rfc2543bis, I understand that there is a theorical difference between the concept of call and the concept of call-leg. But, concretely, I can't see any example where you could have several call-legs belonging to the same call. > Do you have any idea conflicting with this? > > Fred, > > Internet et mail gratuit AltaVista http://www.altavista.fr > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. -- Gonzalo Camarillo Phone : +1 212 939 71 71 Columbia University Mobile: +358 40 702 35 35 472 Computer Science Building Fax : +358 9 299 30 52 1214 Amsterdam Ave., Mail Code 0401 http://www.hut.fi/~gonzalo New York, NY 10027 USA Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 9 15:18:04 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id PAA22141 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 15:18:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B77C4433B; Wed, 9 May 2001 15:18:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com [161.44.11.97]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2274944336 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 15:17:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dingdong.cisco.com (dingdong.cisco.com [64.102.17.16]) by rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id f49JFpX24533; Wed, 9 May 2001 15:15:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cisco.com (rtp-xdm2.cisco.com [64.102.17.79]) by dingdong.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id AFU54352 (AUTH byerly); Wed, 9 May 2001 15:16:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3AF997B0.90CCCAA@cisco.com> From: Bryan Byerly X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51C-CISCOENG [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Watson Cc: "'Steve Levy'" , sip@lists.bell-labs.com, byerly@cisco.com, jryang@cisco.com References: <3AF99419.33DFB0F6@cisco.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------084317182D07489264CE79AA" Subject: [SIP] Re: Powerpoint presentation of Diversion I-D Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 15:17:06 -0400 --------------084317182D07489264CE79AA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oops, the opaque-uri approach was presented in RFC3087 (not RFC3807). Darn my dyslexic fingers! Sorry for the confusion. thanks, Bryan Bryan Byerly wrote: > Hi Mark, > > Mark Watson wrote: > >> Any chance someone can point us at the presentations mentioned below >> ? > > Absolutely. Please see the attached presentation of the Diversion > I-D. > >> I thought that the Diversion draft had been dropped - the list at >> http://www.softarmor.com/sipwg/draftstatus/sip-draftstatus.html >> indicates 'General dissent at IETF49'. > > As I recall, the SIP WG chairs pressured the SIP WG to not accept > additional work items. Presentations such as the Diversion I-D were > given 3 minute slots to briefly touch on new draft ideas. There was > not time for discussion of the drafts and any discussion which was > started was abruptly cut off by the SIP WG chairs. Therefore, I'd > definitely say that the softarmor site is overstating the WG reaction. > > >Nevertheless, I would agree with a requirement to deal with the case > where calls encounter diversion before entering the SIP network (i.e. > in another network). >Calls which encounter diversion within the SIP > network will use the existing SIP mechanisms - redirect, REFER etc., > but if the diversion happens before the SIP >network ... > > Right, I've yet to see an approach ala RFC3087 that provides the > desired information to the called user agent service without requiring > extensive called user agent service-specific policy configuration in > the carrier's gateways/nodes. Such an approach leaves the door open > for namespace collisions (when separate carrier customers' have > collisions in local customer policy namespaces). Further, imagine > trying to interop domains using different syntactical conventions ala > RFC3087. You would have to install translation proxies just to > re-write the Request-URI according to local domain naming conventions. > > All of this mess can be avoided by supporting Diversion. > > >> Provision of any identity information associated with the diverting >> party, though, would need to meet the same privacy and authenticity >> requirements as any other identity information as described in the >> privacy draft. Any future Diversion proposals should look at using >> the capabilities defined there, rather than adding a new header for >> this information. > > Interesting idea... we'd thought about taking a header hiding > approach early on. We'll have to consider privacy interaction > further. > > thanks for your help! > Bryan > > Bryan J. Byerly > byerly@cisco.com > >> Regards, >> >> Mark Watson >> Nortel Networks >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Steve Levy [mailto:stlevy@cisco.com] >> > Sent: 08 May 2001 17:11 >> > To: Igor Slepchin; 'Bryan Byerly'; patrick.mourot@online.fr >> > Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com; sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu >> > Subject: RE: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of date >> > >> > >> > Hi Igor, >> > >> > It may help you if you get to take a look at some of the >> > presentations from >> > the SIP Summit held last week in Dallas. The diversion header >> > was mentioned >> > by a number of the presenters as a way of assisting in network >> > interoperability and helping enable enhanced services. >> > >> > Steve >> > >> > At 03:54 PM 5/7/01 -0400, Igor Slepchin wrote: >> > >A motivation section and examples of functionality that require >> this >> > >extension are conspicuously lacking in the current draft. >> > Adding them may >> > >help me understand why this draft is needed in the first place. >> > > >> > >--- >> > >Igor Slepchin >> > > >> > > >> > >> -----Original Message----- >> > >> From: Bryan Byerly [mailto:byerly@cisco.com] >> > >> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 12:39 PM >> > >> To: patrick.mourot@online.fr >> > >> Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com; sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu; >> > >> byerly@cisco.com >> > >> Subject: Re: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of date >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> Hi Patrick, >> > >> >> > >> There is an updated version of the I-D available. I'll >> > post it to the >> > >> list shortly. >> > >> >> > >> thanks, >> > >> Bryan >> > >> >> > >> patrick.mourot@online.fr wrote: >> > >> >> > >> > Sirs, >> > >> > >> > >> > The following I-D "draft-levy-sip-diversion-01.txt" is now >> > >> out of date. >> > >> > Could someone give us the future of that I-D: >> > >> > -No longer used >> > >> > -new version soon available, >> > >> > -else ? >> > >> > >> > >> > TIA for your response, >> > >> > >> > >> > Patrick >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > >> > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. >> > >> > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss >> > implementation, >> > >> > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. >> > >> > To subscribe to it, send mail to >> > >> > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" >> > >> in the body. >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> > >> This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. >> > >> The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss >> implementation, >> > >> and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. >> > >> To subscribe to it, send mail to >> > >> sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" >> > in the body. >> > >> >> > > >> > >_______________________________________________ >> > >This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. >> > >The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss >> implementation, >> > >and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. >> > >To subscribe to it, send mail to >> > >sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in >> > the body. >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. >> > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, >> >> > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. >> > To subscribe to it, send mail to >> > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the >> body. >> > > --------------084317182D07489264CE79AA Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oops, the opaque-uri approach was presented in RFC3087 (not RFC3807).  Darn my dyslexic fingers!  Sorry for the confusion.

thanks,
Bryan

Bryan Byerly wrote:

Hi Mark,

Mark Watson wrote:

Any chance someone can point us at the presentations mentioned below ?
Absolutely.  Please see the attached presentation of the Diversion I-D.
I thought that the Diversion draft had been dropped - the list at http://www.softarmor.com/sipwg/draftstatus/sip-draftstatus.html indicates 'General dissent at IETF49'.
As I recall, the SIP WG chairs pressured the SIP WG to not accept additional work items.  Presentations such as the Diversion I-D were given 3 minute slots to briefly touch on new draft ideas.  There was not time for discussion of the drafts and any discussion which was started was abruptly cut off by the SIP WG chairs.  Therefore, I'd definitely say that the softarmor site is overstating the WG reaction.

>Nevertheless, I would agree with a requirement to deal with the case where calls encounter diversion before entering the SIP network (i.e. in another network). >Calls which encounter diversion within the SIP network will use the existing SIP mechanisms - redirect, REFER etc., but if the diversion happens before the SIP >network ...

Right, I've yet to see an approach ala RFC3087 that provides the desired information to the called user agent service without requiring extensive called user agent service-specific policy configuration in the carrier's gateways/nodes.  Such an approach leaves the door open for namespace collisions (when separate carrier customers' have collisions in local customer policy namespaces).  Further, imagine trying to interop domains using different syntactical conventions ala RFC3087.  You would have to install translation proxies just to re-write the Request-URI according to local domain naming conventions.

All of this mess can be avoided by supporting Diversion.
 

Provision of any identity information associated with the diverting party, though, would need to meet the same privacy and authenticity requirements as any other identity information as described in the privacy draft. Any future Diversion proposals should look at using the capabilities defined there, rather than adding a new header for this information.
Interesting idea...  we'd thought about taking a header hiding approach early on.  We'll have to consider privacy interaction further.

thanks for your help!
Bryan

Bryan J. Byerly
byerly@cisco.com

Regards,

Mark Watson
Nortel Networks

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Levy [mailto:stlevy@cisco.com]
> Sent: 08 May 2001 17:11
> To: Igor Slepchin; 'Bryan Byerly'; patrick.mourot@online.fr
> Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com; sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu
> Subject: RE: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of date
>
>
> Hi Igor,
>
> It may help you if you get to take a look at some of the
> presentations from
> the SIP Summit held last week in Dallas. The diversion header
> was mentioned
> by a number of the presenters as a way of assisting in network
> interoperability and helping enable enhanced services.
>
> Steve
>
> At 03:54 PM 5/7/01 -0400, Igor Slepchin wrote:
> >A motivation section and examples of functionality that require this
> >extension are conspicuously lacking in the current draft.
> Adding them may
> >help me understand why this draft is needed in the first place.
> >
> >---
> >Igor Slepchin
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Bryan Byerly [mailto:byerly@cisco.com]
> >> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 12:39 PM
> >> To: patrick.mourot@online.fr
> >> Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com; sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu;
> >> byerly@cisco.com
> >> Subject: Re: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of date
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi Patrick,
> >>
> >> There is an updated version of the I-D available.  I'll
> post it to the
> >> list shortly.
> >>
> >> thanks,
> >> Bryan
> >>
> >> patrick.mourot@online.fr wrote:
> >>
> >> > Sirs,
> >> >
> >> > The following I-D "draft-levy-sip-diversion-01.txt" is now
> >> out of date.
> >> > Could someone give us the future of that I-D:
> >> > -No longer used
> >> > -new version soon available,
> >> > -else ?
> >> >
> >> > TIA for your response,
> >> >
> >> > Patrick
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol.
> >> > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss
> implementation,
> >> > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip.
> >> > To subscribe to it, send mail to
> >> > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe"
> >> in the body.
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol.
> >> The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation,
> >> and to receive advice on understanding existing sip.
> >> To subscribe to it, send mail to
> >> sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe"
> in the body.
> >>
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol.
> >The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation,
> >and to receive advice on understanding existing sip.
> >To subscribe to it, send mail to
> >sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in
> the body.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol.
> The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation,
> and to receive advice on understanding existing sip.
> To subscribe to it, send mail to
> sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body.
>

--------------084317182D07489264CE79AA-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 9 15:30:02 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id PAA22480 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 15:30:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 565E444381; Wed, 9 May 2001 15:30:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mailgate.pit.comms.marconi.com (mailgate.pit.comms.marconi.com [169.144.68.6]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 443D144369 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 15:29:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailman.pit.comms.marconi.com (mailman.pit.comms.marconi.com [169.144.2.12]) by mailgate.pit.comms.marconi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA23832; Wed, 9 May 2001 15:29:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from whq-msgrtr-01.pit.comms.marconi.com (whq-msgrtr-01.pit.comms.marconi.com [169.144.2.221]) by mailman.pit.comms.marconi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA11250; Wed, 9 May 2001 15:29:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by whq-msgrtr-01.pit.comms.marconi.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 9 May 2001 15:28:44 -0400 Message-ID: <4FBEA8857476D311A03300204840E1CF01A6F5B1@whq-msgusr-02.pit.comms.marconi.com> From: "Rosen, Brian" To: "'Bryan Byerly'" Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] Powerpoint presentation of Diversion I-D MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C0D8BE.4DE25BC0" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 15:29:02 -0400 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0D8BE.4DE25BC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" As I recall, the SIP WG chairs pressured the SIP WG to not accept additional work items. Presentations such as the Diversion I-D were given 3 minute slots to briefly touch on new draft ideas. There was not time for discussion of the drafts and any discussion which was started was abruptly cut off by the SIP WG chairs. Therefore, I'd definitely say that the softarmor site is overstating the WG reaction. After each of the presentations, the room was asked for their reaction. The results on the site represent the chair's determination of that reaction. You can argue that the entire WG was not in the room, you can argue that you did not get sufficient time to present the ideas. You cannot argue that we overstated the reaction. At the time, the people in the meeting did not consider the draft very interesting. In the future, there will NOT be an opportunity to present a draft that has not recieved significant positive reaction ON THE LIST, or for which there are significant issues that could be resolved on the list. Not even 3 minutes. We have not officially rechartered, but when we do, there will also be an attempt to stick to the charter. So the process (always has been, but rarely enforced): 1. Raise new ideas on the list, or write an I-D and start discussion on the list. 2. Chairs will rule on the list if the item is out of charter 3. If significant positive reaction is determined on the list, keep going, move the discussion along, revise the I-D, ... 4. If issues arise that need face time in a meeting, ask for a slot. Don't summarize the idea, just the state you are in and the issue(s) that must be resolved Present all the ideas on the table Propose a resolution 5. When the I-D is getting solid, ask that it be put on the "last call calendar" 6. Follow through until WGLC is reached and passed. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0D8BE.4DE25BC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
As I recall, the SIP WG chairs pressured the SIP WG to not accept additional work items.  Presentations such as the Diversion I-D were given 3 minute slots to briefly touch on new draft ideas.  There was not time for discussion of the drafts and any discussion which was started was abruptly cut off by the SIP WG chairs.  Therefore, I'd definitely say that the softarmor site is overstating the WG reaction.  
 
After each of the presentations, the room was asked for their reaction.  The results on the site represent the chair's
determination of that reaction.  You can argue that the entire WG was not in the room, you can argue that 
you did not get sufficient time to present the ideas.  You cannot argue that we overstated the reaction.
At the time, the people in the meeting did not consider the draft very interesting.
 
In the future, there will NOT be an opportunity to present a draft that has not recieved significant positive
reaction ON THE LIST, or for which there are significant issues that could be resolved on the list.
Not even 3 minutes.   
 
We have not officially rechartered, but when we do, there will also be an attempt to stick to
the charter.  So the process (always has been, but rarely enforced):
 
1. Raise new ideas on the list, or write an I-D and start discussion on the list.
2. Chairs will rule on the list if the item is out of charter
3. If significant positive reaction is determined on the list, keep going,
        move the discussion along, revise the I-D, ...
4. If issues arise that need face time in a meeting, ask for a slot.
                Don't summarize the idea, just the state you are in and the
                issue(s) that must be resolved
 
                Present all the ideas on the table
 
                Propose a resolution
5. When the I-D is getting solid, ask that it be put on the "last call calendar"
6. Follow through until WGLC is reached and passed.
 
------_=_NextPart_001_01C0D8BE.4DE25BC0-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 9 17:27:01 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id RAA25578 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 17:27:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A39E14433B; Wed, 9 May 2001 17:27:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from web13207.mail.yahoo.com (web13207.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.192]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 4409C44336 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 17:26:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20010509212622.54514.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [38.204.3.195] by web13207.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 09 May 2001 14:26:22 PDT From: Harbor Dong To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [SIP] question about 3-way Conference Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 14:26:22 -0700 (PDT) In draft-ietf-sip-service-examples-01... 2.9 3-way Conference User A calls User B, User B then invites user C to a 3-way call. User B will mix the audio streams (act as the conference bridge). If user B drops out of the call then the entire call is dropped. This is not a fully meshed conference, and does not make use of the concepts in the call control draft...... >>>Question: What does it mean about "User B will mix the audio streams (act as the conference bridge)."? Thanks. Laker __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 9 23:23:02 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id XAA03732 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 23:23:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37D9D4433B; Wed, 9 May 2001 23:23:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from hebe.or.intel.com (jffdns02.or.intel.com [134.134.248.4]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33F8E44336 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 23:22:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SMTP (orsmsxvs01-1.jf.intel.com [192.168.65.200]) by hebe.or.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.38 2001/05/09 12:49:45 root Exp $) with SMTP id DAA22734; Thu, 10 May 2001 03:22:38 GMT Received: from orsmsx28.jf.intel.com ([192.168.70.28]) by 192.168.70.200 (Norton AntiVirus for Internet Email Gateways 1.0) ; Thu, 10 May 2001 03:22:38 0000 (GMT) Received: by orsmsx28.jf.intel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 9 May 2001 20:22:33 -0700 Message-ID: <4148FEAAD879D311AC5700A0C969E89006E18AE1@orsmsx35.jf.intel.com> From: "Gross, Gerhard" To: "'sachin_karkala@indya.com'" , sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] need some info abt SIP proxy MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 07:44:15 -0700 Sachin, I can answer some of your questions. See remarks inline preceded with [gwg]. > -----Original Message----- > From: sachin_karkala@indya.com [mailto:sachin_karkala@indya.com] > Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 2:42 AM > To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com > Subject: [SIP] need some info abt SIP proxy > > > hi, > i'm trying to implement SIP proxy server, i have > few questions and hope to get the answeres > ASAP :) > 1) when ever a INVITE request comes to the > proxy, first should it check for whether the > user is registered for the proxy? [gwg] If the INVITE uses an alias for the destination the proxy must be able to map the alias to the destination or to another proxy that will move the INVITE toward the destination. If a destination IP address is supplied in the INVITE, a SIP proxy is not necessarily needed, unless for other reasons aside from alias mappings (such as AAA, including billing records). Generally, users register an alias with a proxy. In these cases, when an INVITE comes in, the SIP proxy checks registration records to map the alias used in the INVITE with the destination IP address. > > if so.. the user should also get registerd in > all the proxies the mesage gets routed? > > 2)How the billing is implemented in a proxy? [gwg] Billing requires authentication and accounting records (two of the As in AAA). This is not standardized by SIP. Efforts are under way to define mechanisms to support billing with SIP. See http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gross-sipaq-01.txt http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gross-cops-sip-01.txt > > 3) I guess its always two proxies that is > required to establish a session... is that true? > if not kindly explain. [gwg] Not always (see answer to 1), but I think that is the typical scenario. To support billable services, it is a requirement that each endpoint be represented by a SIP proxy for session authorization, authentication and so that accounting records get accurately generated and forwarded to the correct entities. > > 4) how exactly the message gets routed to its > destination ( i.e. how the proxy comes to know > destination IP address..etc)? > > thanks in advance :) > Sachin K > > Enjoy being an Indyan at http://www.indya.com > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 9 23:44:00 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id XAA04266 for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 23:44:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 352A14437F; Wed, 9 May 2001 23:44:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from broadsoft.com (broadsoft.com [161.58.239.68]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE3924433B for ; Wed, 9 May 2001 23:43:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tate ([64.243.180.244]) by broadsoft.com (8.11.2) id f4A3hse92572; Wed, 9 May 2001 23:43:54 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: From: "Brett Tate" To: "'Steve Donovan'" , Subject: RE: [SIP] First cut review of Session Timer draft. Message-ID: <001901c0d903$bffbe6a0$2b01a8c0@broadsoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 In-Reply-To: <9BF66EBF6BEFD942915B4D4D45C051F318036D@DYN-TX-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com> Importance: Normal Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 23:46:08 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > 4:5 What happens if the UAC does _NOT_ include a > > > Session-Expires header on > > > the re-invite? I assume everyone resets their timers with > > the original > > > values? Or does timer processing cease? > > > > Timer processing ceases unless re-added > > by proxy or UAS. > > No, the timer is not effected. I have added wording to make > this clear. > Last paragraph page 12 draft-ietf-sip-session-timer-04: "Note that if the 200 OK to the re-INVITE has no Session-Expires, no expiration time exists for the session. This can happen if the proxies and/or UAS change their mind about session timers, and decide they no longer wish to use them." Please continue to require this renegotiation of Session-Expires stuff in all re-INVITE combinations for the following reasons. 1) A revived proxy can be aware of Session-Expires value. 2) A revived UAS that was required to perform session extensions will know it needs to do so. 3) It allows the session timing to be discontinued and the call still remain. 4) It requires the smurf that required small timer values to stay in the picture if they want to continue to require small values. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 10 06:05:01 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id GAA21935 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 06:05:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD68E4433B; Thu, 10 May 2001 06:05:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@share.research.bell-labs.com Received: from crufty.research.bell-labs.com (crufty.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.49]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 6169244336 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 06:04:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([135.104.27.211]) by crufty; Thu May 10 06:01:17 EDT 2001 Received: by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) id 2156644384; Thu, 10 May 2001 05:50:37 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from uk0006exch001h.wins.lucent.com (uk0006exch001h.uk.lucent.com [135.86.160.150]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 268374437D for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 05:50:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by uk0006exch001h.uk.lucent.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 10 May 2001 10:50:34 +0100 Message-ID: <475FF955A05DD411980D00508B6D5FB0023432A4@en0033exch001u.uk.lucent.com> From: "Drage, Keith (Keith)" To: Jonathan Rosenberg , "'sip@lists.bell-labs.com'" Subject: RE: [SIP] Further editorial nit in the bis draft MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 10:50:27 +0100 Now this discussion seems to have died down, can I ask Jonathan to summarise the final changes as a result of the discussion....starting the with the requested changed to harmonise the status-code name through the specification. I think we should also look at the 100-rel draft, which defines the PRACK method. This contains the following statement in 6.2 A PRACK request MUST NOT be cancelled. If a UAS receives a CANCEL request for a PRACK, it MUST respond to the CANCEL with a 405 (Method Not Allowed). Aside from the fact that the first sentence is a repetition of the UAC requirement that already exists in section 6.1, and it is therefore inappropriate to repeat the MUST NOT here where we are specifying requirements for the UAS, the second sentence would appear to be unnecessarily inconsistent with other requirements relating to CANCEL. I guess the answer here depends on whether we are assuming finite processing time for these things or not. In most cases the 200 OK for a PRACK will be sent immediately, therefore a CANCEL will not be able to get in. If a CANCEL really can get in, can anybody elaborate why it is dangerous to cancel the PRACK like any other method. In any case, as the 405 response seems primarily to tell the sender what methods are allowed, presumably it must indicate that CANCEL (whose support is mandatory by all UACs) is an allowed method in the Allowed header field, thereby telling the sender that he cannot use CANCEL because CANCEL is an allowed method!!!! The 100rel requirement appears is inconsistent with the rest of the CANCEL handling, and I cannot see the danger in making it consistent. thanks Keith Keith Drage Lucent Technologies Tel: +44 1793 776249 Email: drage@lucent.com > ---------- > From: Christer Holmberg[SMTP:christer.holmberg@lmf.ericsson.se] > Sent: 30 April 2001 6:46 > To: Igor Slepchin > Cc: Jonathan Rosenberg; 'Sean Olson (EUS)'; 'Vijay Gurbani'; > 'sip@lists.bell-labs.com' > Subject: Re: [SIP] Further editorial nit in the bis draft > > <> > > Hi all, > > >Well, the original motivation for sending a BYE instead of a CANCEL to > >terminate call setup was PSTN connectivity, since PSTN gateways may > >apparently want to send ISUP in SIP call termination messaging. > > > >With CANCELs being hop by hop and the note in 8.1 specifically > prohibiting > >sending payloads in CANCELs, it was somehow assumed that they are not > suited > >for conveying that ISUP payload. I never really bought into that argument > so > >I am fine with the proposed wording. However, at this point it may become > a > >compatibility issue if lots of folks have already implemented sending the > >BYE. I'd recommend saying that UASs should be prepared to receive either > a > >BYE or a CANCEL but UACs SHOULD send a CANCEL and only BYE the 200 > responses > >if any. > > By saying that "UASs should be prepared to receive either a BYE or a > CANCEL" would not solve anything, and soon we would have this discussion > again, since many implementations would probably not implement support > to receive BYE. My suggestion would be to say that "A UAS MUST be > prepared to receive either a BYE or a CANCEL". A UAC can then send > either BYE or CANCEL (no SHOULDs needed), depending on the functionality > (Igor gave an example why a PSTN GW may want to use BYE instead of > CANCEL). > > However, it should be clearly written that BYEs are used to terminate > whole calls/call setups, so that people don't start using them to > "cancel" transactions, ie re-INVITEs. > > I know that my MUST-proposal may have some backward compability issues, > but solving those issues (not only in this case) by adding a lots of > SHOULDs will in many cases only move the problems to a later stage... > > Regards, > > Christer Holmberg > Ericsson Finland > > > > > > > > > > --- > > Igor Slepchin > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Jonathan Rosenberg [mailto:jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com] > > > Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 11:21 AM > > > To: 'Sean Olson (EUS)'; 'Vijay Gurbani'; Jonathan Rosenberg > > > Cc: Christer Holmberg (LMF); 'sip@lists.bell-labs.com' > > > Subject: RE: [SIP] Further editorial nit in the bis draft > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Sean Olson (EUS) [mailto:sean.olson@ericsson.com] > > > Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 11:02 AM > > > To: 'Vijay Gurbani'; Jonathan Rosenberg > > > Cc: Christer Holmberg (LMF); 'sip@lists.bell-labs.com' > > > Subject: RE: [SIP] Further editorial nit in the bis draft > > > > > > >>Jonathan: > > > >> > > > >>I misinterpret many thing, but definitely not this one :-) In > > > >>some earlier > > > >>posting, I made the same point: a BYE should be sent after a > > > >>CANCEL iff > > > >>the 200 OK (INVITE) from the UAS and the CANCEL pass each > > > >>other on the wire. > > > > > > > >This is not what Jonathan is saying. He is referring to the > > > >possibility of sending a BYE *instead* of a CANCEL, not sending > > > >a BYE in the event a CANCEL crosses on the wire. > > > > > > Everyone loves to put words into my mouth... > > > > > > I was saying that the preferred approach is to send CANCEL > > > first, and then > > > iff you get a 200 OK anyway (which happens if the CANCEL and > > > 200 OK pass on > > > the wire) then send BYE. I was also saying we should keep > > > "just send BYE" as > > > a MAY. Vijay seems to be saying we should not even mention > > > that possibility. > > > > > > -Jonathan R. > > > --- > > > Jonathan D. Rosenberg 72 Eagle Rock Ave. > > > Chief Scientist First Floor > > > dynamicsoft East Hanover, NJ 07936 > > > jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 > > > http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 > > > http://www.dynamicsoft.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > > > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > > > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > > > To subscribe to it, send mail to > > > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > > > > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 10 06:07:04 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id GAA21956 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 06:07:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C55E4443B0; Thu, 10 May 2001 06:05:14 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@share.research.bell-labs.com Received: from crufty.research.bell-labs.com (crufty.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.49]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id AC5554433B for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 06:04:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([135.104.27.211]) by crufty; Thu May 10 06:01:17 EDT 2001 Received: by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) id 2AFA944385; Thu, 10 May 2001 05:50:37 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from uk0006exch001h.wins.lucent.com (uk0006exch001h.uk.lucent.com [135.86.160.150]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32F8A44380 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 05:50:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by uk0006exch001h.uk.lucent.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 10 May 2001 10:50:34 +0100 Message-ID: <475FF955A05DD411980D00508B6D5FB0023432A5@en0033exch001u.uk.lucent.com> From: "Drage, Keith (Keith)" To: "'Drage, Keith (Keith)'" , "'sip@lists.bell-labs.com'" , Jonathan Rosenberg Subject: RE: [SIP] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-service-examples-01.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 10:50:27 +0100 I was looking for the normative specification of this 0.0.0.0 in the SDP c line. The RFC does not specify it, and the service examples mentions it but this is informational. Given that the interpretation of this particular c= line would appear to be not to send data, then I would judge thsi requires some statement in a standards track SDP specification. Have I missed it somewhere? We also need a change to the service-examples draft to change the text that states that either party may take the session off hold, as you have indicated that is wrong. Keith Keith Drage Lucent Technologies Tel: +44 1793 776249 Email: drage@lucent.com > ---------- > From: Jonathan Rosenberg[SMTP:jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com] > Sent: 25 April 2001 18:54 > To: 'Drage, Keith (Keith)'; sip@lists.bell-labs.com > Subject: RE: [SIP] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-service-examples-01.txt > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Drage, Keith (Keith) [mailto:drage@lucent.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 6:01 AM > > To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com > > Subject: RE: [SIP] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-service-examples-01.txt > > > > > > The initial enquiry and Brett's response assume that the > > result of hold is > > asymmetrical. While the service examples draft is an attempt > > to emulate PSTN > > services, the service result in this case is not the same. > > > > The service-examples draft contains the following key words > > > > . Note that either party can take the other party off > > of hold. > > > > SIP hold removes the media stream(s). They are removed at > > both ends. If A > > holds B, then both parties are in the state of having no media stream. > > No, that is not true. > > If A sends B a re-INVITE with a stream held (meaning its connection > address > is 0.0.0.0), the only thing this means is that A does not wish to receive > media from B. It does not mean that A should cease sending media to B, > although it can always do that as a UI issue. > > The whole idea of the 0.0.0.0 "hack" was that it achieved call hold as a > natural side-effect of an existing operation. By assigning it the meaning > of > "hold" as well, we allow UI's to take advantage of knowing about being on > hold, yet allow for the service to work for devices that don't know > anything > about hold. All they know is that they cannot send packets to the > nonexistent 0.0.0.0 address. > > As a consequence, no special behavior should be implied from SDP with > 0.0.0.0 in the c line, beyond, "don't send me media". > > > The process of coming out of hold requires merely adding a > > media stream and > > therefore either end can invoke this function. > > No, a stream is not "added". Adding a stream implies the addition of a new > m > line in the SDP. That is not the case. One comes off of hold by sending a > reinvite with the c line of the existing, held stream changed back to a > valid IP address. > > The only note > > I would make is > > that if A held B, then A presumably did it to release > > resources to perform > > some other function (this is the purpose of hold in both the > > PSTN and ISDN). > > If B tries to resume the call before A is ready, then those > > resources may > > still be unavailable, and A may reject the request (e.g. with > > "busy here" or > > "busy everywhere"). > > This complication is non-existent with the correct, unidirectional > interpretation of hold. > > -Jonathan R. > --- > Jonathan D. Rosenberg 72 Eagle Rock Ave. > Chief Scientist First Floor > dynamicsoft East Hanover, NJ 07936 > jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 > http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 > http://www.dynamicsoft.com > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 10 08:13:57 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id IAA23644 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 08:13:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E838844399; Thu, 10 May 2001 08:13:03 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93A644433B for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 08:12:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id IAA21906; Thu, 10 May 2001 08:16:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 10 May 2001 08:12:47 -0400 Message-ID: <9BF66EBF6BEFD942915B4D4D45C051F3180382@DYN-TX-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com> From: Steve Donovan To: "'brett@broadsoft.com'" , Steve Donovan , sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] First cut review of Session Timer draft. MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 08:12:46 -0400 Brett, You're correct, I had forgotten that was there. This just shows that the session timer draft has been hanging around too long and needs to be promoted to RFC. Thanks for pointing this out. Steve > -----Original Message----- > From: Brett Tate [mailto:brett@broadsoft.com] > Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 10:46 PM > To: 'Steve Donovan'; sip@lists.bell-labs.com > Subject: RE: [SIP] First cut review of Session Timer draft. > > > > > > 4:5 What happens if the UAC does _NOT_ include a > > > > Session-Expires header on > > > > the re-invite? I assume everyone resets their timers with > > > the original > > > > values? Or does timer processing cease? > > > > > > Timer processing ceases unless re-added > > > by proxy or UAS. > > > > No, the timer is not effected. I have added wording to make > > this clear. > > > > Last paragraph page 12 draft-ietf-sip-session-timer-04: > "Note that if the 200 OK to the re-INVITE has > no Session-Expires, no expiration time exists for the > session. This can happen if the proxies and/or UAS > change their mind about session timers, and decide > they no longer wish to use them." > > Please continue to require this renegotiation of > Session-Expires stuff in all re-INVITE combinations > for the following reasons. > 1) A revived proxy can be aware of Session-Expires value. > 2) A revived UAS that was required to perform session > extensions will know it needs to do so. > 3) It allows the session timing to be > discontinued and the call still remain. > 4) It requires the smurf that required small timer > values to stay in the picture if they want to > continue to require small values. > > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 10 09:18:02 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA25493 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 09:18:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D806E44399; Thu, 10 May 2001 09:18:03 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from hurdit.net (unknown [63.99.7.250]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D9414433B for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 09:17:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cc444799b ([24.180.134.92]) by hurdit.net with SMTP (IPAD 2.52) id 1023200; Thu, 10 May 2001 09:21:45 -0400 From: "Mohammad Vakil" To: , "Harbor Dong" Subject: RE: [SIP] question about 3-way Conference Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 In-Reply-To: <20010509212622.54514.qmail@web13207.mail.yahoo.com> Importance: Normal Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 09:18:10 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User B will be receiving the audio streams from User A and C. User B will have two RTP sessions active one with A and another one with C. It's User B's job to mix the audio streams from A and C along with its own and send it back the mixed steams to A and C. I guess n -1 mixing can be done here. A + B ====> C A + C ====> B B + C ====> A note that, here since it's not a fully meshed conference so only User B's media component would be doing the mixing job and A and C would be dealing with just on RTP session. Hope it answers your question. Mohammad Vakil SIP Communications > -----Original Message----- > From: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com > [mailto:sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com]On Behalf Of Harbor Dong > Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 5:26 PM > To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com > Subject: [SIP] question about 3-way Conference > > > In draft-ietf-sip-service-examples-01... > > 2.9 3-way Conference > User A calls User B, User B then invites user C to > a 3-way call. User B will mix the audio streams (act > as the conference bridge). If user B drops out of the > call then the entire call is dropped. This is not > a fully meshed conference, and does not make use of > the concepts in the call control draft...... > > >>>Question: What does it mean about "User B will mix > the audio streams (act as the conference bridge)."? > > Thanks. > > Laker > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 10 09:57:55 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA27095 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 09:57:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B277B443BA; Thu, 10 May 2001 09:57:03 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from hindon.hss.co.in (unknown [202.54.26.202]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4300A44399 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 09:56:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hsssun01.hss.hns.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hindon.hss.co.in (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id f4ADvDX20764; Thu, 10 May 2001 19:27:13 +0530 (IST) Received: from sampark.hss.hns.com (sampark [139.85.229.22]) by hsssun01.hss.hns.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with SMTP id f4AE2rP15851; Thu, 10 May 2001 19:33:23 +0530 (IST) Received: by sampark.hss.hns.com(Lotus SMTP MTA Internal build v4.6.2 (651.2 6-10-1998)) id 65256A48.004C291C ; Thu, 10 May 2001 19:21:52 +0530 X-Lotus-FromDomain: HSSBLR From: seshashayi@hss.hns.com To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com, Jonathan Rosenberg Message-ID: <65256A48.004C285B.00@sampark.hss.hns.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Subject: [SIP] Encryption in bis-02 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 19:21:50 +0530 Hi, In the draft-ietf-sip-rfc2543bis-02(Nov 2000), in the section 13.1.1 describing the End -to -End Encryption, it refers to enc. column in Table 4,5 for the specification of headers which must not be encrypted. But, the Table4 and Table 5 don't seem to have that column at all. The RFC 2543(March 1999) has this column. Can I know,why was this removed in the bis-02? Regds Seshu _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 10 11:56:06 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA01260 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 11:56:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C0EC44399; Thu, 10 May 2001 11:56:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from drago1.ubiquity.net (news.ubiquity.net [194.202.146.92]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A48A74433B for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 11:55:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gecko by drago1.ubiquity.net via smtpd (for share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) with SMTP; 10 May 2001 15:55:44 UT Received: from jhornsby by ubiquity.net with SMTP (8.8.8+Sun/25-eef) id QAA06247; Thu, 10 May 2001 16:54:36 +0100 (BST) From: "Jo Hornsby" To: "Drage, Keith (Keith)" , "Jonathan Rosenberg" , Subject: RE: [SIP] Further editorial nit in the bis draft Message-ID: <005301c0d969$84222e80$4e34c3c1@ubiquity.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <475FF955A05DD411980D00508B6D5FB0023432A4@en0033exch001u.uk.lucent.com> Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 16:54:37 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Now this discussion seems to have died down, can I ask Jonathan > to summarise > the final changes as a result of the discussion....starting the with the > requested changed to harmonise the status-code name through the > specification. > > I think we should also look at the 100-rel draft, which defines the PRACK > method. > > This contains the following statement in 6.2 > > A PRACK request MUST NOT be cancelled. If a UAS receives a CANCEL > request for a PRACK, it MUST respond to the CANCEL with a 405 (Method > Not Allowed). > > Aside from the fact that the first sentence is a repetition of the UAC > requirement that already exists in section 6.1, and it is therefore > inappropriate to repeat the MUST NOT here where we are specifying > requirements for the UAS, the second sentence would appear to be > unnecessarily inconsistent with other requirements relating to CANCEL. [...] I would agree with this. A typical proxy does not know anything about PRACK, and thus would not know that it cannot CANCEL one. Since CANCEL provides a neat way, in general, to try and cleanup state on transactions, it would be a shame if a proxy was violating some effectively unknown rule. However, that said, CANCEL doesn't seem useful for non-INVITEs (unless they enfore very quick completion of transactions), unless (perhaps) the request is forked. And we know that forking of non-INVITEs is typically undesirable. So it's difficult. Thoughts? - Jo. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 10 11:57:51 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA01339 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 11:57:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58EC3443CB; Thu, 10 May 2001 11:56:17 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mail.go2call.com (mail.go2call.com [216.34.184.220]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 247C24433B for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 11:55:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netadmin2 (go2call-109.go2call.com [216.52.157.109]) by mail.go2call.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with SMTP id f4AFtnD10314 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 10:55:49 -0500 (CDT) From: "Ajay K. Garg" To: "Sip Bell Labs" Subject: RE: [SIP] 3gpp--controoler????? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 10:59:54 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Where I can find more information about this controller. Please point me to the right URL. Thanks -Ajay > > Hi. > > I think that there is one thing that should be stated here very > clearly about the Controller/B2B-UA. > > That is a session setup between users1 and user2 using the > Controller will have two different call-id's > compared to an ordinary session setup directly from user1 to > user2, which would hold the very same > call-id. > > This provides the ''controller'' with the ability to manipulate > each call-leg separately at a later > state like after an external timer expires in the middle of an > established session. > > With kind regards, Michael Junge Pedersen. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Brian Gracely [mailto:bgracely@cisco.com] > Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 11:12 PM > To: kanumuri sreeram; Jonathan Rosenberg; 'Drage, Keith (Keith)'; > 'Mayank Sharma'; Chen, Xin (Xin); 'sip@lists.bell-labs.com' > Subject: Re: [SIP] 3gpp--controoler????? > > > the 3pcc controller can also be thought of as a back-to-back > UA.....ie. 2 UAs in the same logical entity. It terminates the > signaling, but the media goes between points A & B. it will need > to be call-stateful, like a UA. > > BG > > > > At 12:18 PM 04/25/2001 -0700, kanumuri sreeram wrote: > > > > hi all, > > I have a douth regarding the 3pcc in sip. > > I am clear that this is possible with the help of the controller. > > like it is what which will take care of the signaling and the > media will be transfer will be taking place among them selves "true" i.e. > > A-------------CONTROLLER---------------------------B > > direct media transfer > > =================================== > > > > ok but I am not clear about this entity controller can any one > make me clear like what is ? > > if this is a different entity it should also be show in the > architecture of sip > > like sipua,proxy,rediect,CONTROLLER.... > > so I am clear with me douth can anu one help me > > sreeram > > > > > > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things > you want at great prices > > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 10 12:14:15 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA01882 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 12:14:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B92B144399; Thu, 10 May 2001 12:14:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se (penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [194.237.142.110]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B72B44399 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 12:13:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fogerty.lmf.ericsson.se (fogerty.lmf.ericsson.se [131.160.11.6]) by penguin.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.11.0/8.10.1/WIREfire-1.3) with ESMTP id f4AGDNO17214; Thu, 10 May 2001 18:13:24 +0200 (MEST) Received: from lmf.ericsson.se (E005004B52C74.lmf.ericsson.se [131.160.30.161]) by fogerty.lmf.ericsson.se (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4AGDMJ27991; Thu, 10 May 2001 19:13:22 +0300 (EET DST) Message-ID: <3AFABE19.367A66E0@lmf.ericsson.se> From: Christer Holmberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jo Hornsby Cc: "Drage, Keith (Keith)" , Jonathan Rosenberg , sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: Re: [SIP] Further editorial nit in the bis draft References: <005301c0d969$84222e80$4e34c3c1@ubiquity.co.uk> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------8E80084B1D61C7637B088B12" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 19:13:13 +0300 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------8E80084B1D61C7637B088B12 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Jo Hornsby wrote: > > > Now this discussion seems to have died down, can I ask Jonathan > > to summarise > > the final changes as a result of the discussion....starting the with the > > requested changed to harmonise the status-code name through the > > specification. > > > > I think we should also look at the 100-rel draft, which defines the PRACK > > method. > > > > This contains the following statement in 6.2 > > > > A PRACK request MUST NOT be cancelled. If a UAS receives a CANCEL > > request for a PRACK, it MUST respond to the CANCEL with a 405 (Method > > Not Allowed). > > > > Aside from the fact that the first sentence is a repetition of the UAC > > requirement that already exists in section 6.1, and it is therefore > > inappropriate to repeat the MUST NOT here where we are specifying > > requirements for the UAS, the second sentence would appear to be > > unnecessarily inconsistent with other requirements relating to CANCEL. > [...] > > I would agree with this. > > A typical proxy does not know anything about PRACK, and thus > would not know that it cannot CANCEL one. Since CANCEL > provides a neat way, in general, to try and cleanup state on > transactions, it would be a shame if a proxy was violating > some effectively unknown rule. > > However, that said, CANCEL doesn't seem useful for non-INVITEs > (unless they enfore very quick completion of transactions), > unless (perhaps) the request is forked. And we know that > forking of non-INVITEs is typically undesirable. So it's > difficult. > > Thoughts? One proposal: "CANCEL can only be used to terminate an INVITE request". Short and simple :) Another idea would be to include Proxy-Require: 100rel, if the UAC knows it may want to CANCEL a PRACK, but I don't know if that is a very good think to do... Regards, Christer Holmberg Ericsson Finland > > - Jo. > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. --------------8E80084B1D61C7637B088B12 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="christer.holmberg.vcf" Content-Description: Card for Christer Holmberg Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="christer.holmberg.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit begin:vcard n:Holmberg;Christer tel;cell:+358-40-5604412 tel;work:+358-9-2992943 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Ericsson;IP Multimedia / Advanced Signalling Research Laboratory adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 email;internet:christer.holmberg@lmf.ericsson.se title:System Designer fn:Christer Holmberg end:vcard --------------8E80084B1D61C7637B088B12-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 10 12:27:06 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA02217 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 12:27:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2370E443D0; Thu, 10 May 2001 12:27:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mailcity.com (fes.whowhere.com [209.185.123.154]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 083AE44339 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 12:26:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by mailcity.com; Thu May 10 09:26:47 2001 To: "SIP List" From: "Info Van" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off Reply-To: infovaan@lycos.com X-Mailer: MailCity Service X-Sender-Ip: 207.31.112.126 Organization: Lycos Mail (http://mail.lycos.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Language: en Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [SIP] clarification of UAS/UAC in bis02 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 12:26:47 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hi, excuse me if my question is naive, as i am new to sip. i think that a little more clarification as to what really is UAS and UAC, before we start talking about INVITE in the bis02 document. the document, has come way ahead of the original RFC, i agree, but the order in which the concepts, acronyms and ideas are presented, may not be the best. the roles of UAS and UAC need to be clarified before we talk about INVITE and the idea of when/why the SessionDescription MAY/SHOULD be sent, from/to UAS/UAC, respectively. i am talking about section 4.2.1 if this forum is not proper for this question, can somebody direct me to the correct one. thanks, iv. Get 250 color business cards for FREE! http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/ _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 10 14:05:02 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id OAA05287 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 14:05:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 127D844399; Thu, 10 May 2001 14:05:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mail.inetmail.att.net (mailhost1.inetmail.att.net [204.127.132.33]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E95744339 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 14:04:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from email.masconit.com ([12.41.17.214]) by mail.inetmail.att.net (mtiagic01) with ESMTP id <20010510180451gi128279bme>; Thu, 10 May 2001 18:04:51 +0000 Received: from ashok (RANJIT [12.41.17.196]) by email.masconit.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id JB7PPZ1W; Thu, 10 May 2001 13:12:14 -0500 Message-ID: <029201c0d97c$88e5af60$c411290c@masconit.com> Reply-To: "Ranjit Avasarala" From: "Ranjit Avasarala" To: "Ajay K. Garg" , "Sip Bell Labs" References: Subject: Re: [SIP] 3gpp--controoler????? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 13:10:46 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ajay I think this is the document http://www.fokus.gmd.de/research/cc/glone/projects/ipt/players/ietf/allsipdi r/draft-mahy-sip-peer-3pcc-00.txt Regards Ranjit Mascon Communication Technologies http://www.masconit.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Ajay K. Garg To: Sip Bell Labs Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 10:59 AM Subject: RE: [SIP] 3gpp--controoler????? Where I can find more information about this controller. Please point me to the right URL. Thanks -Ajay > > Hi. > > I think that there is one thing that should be stated here very > clearly about the Controller/B2B-UA. > > That is a session setup between users1 and user2 using the > Controller will have two different call-id's > compared to an ordinary session setup directly from user1 to > user2, which would hold the very same > call-id. > > This provides the ''controller'' with the ability to manipulate > each call-leg separately at a later > state like after an external timer expires in the middle of an > established session. > > With kind regards, Michael Junge Pedersen. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Brian Gracely [mailto:bgracely@cisco.com] > Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 11:12 PM > To: kanumuri sreeram; Jonathan Rosenberg; 'Drage, Keith (Keith)'; > 'Mayank Sharma'; Chen, Xin (Xin); 'sip@lists.bell-labs.com' > Subject: Re: [SIP] 3gpp--controoler????? > > > the 3pcc controller can also be thought of as a back-to-back > UA.....ie. 2 UAs in the same logical entity. It terminates the > signaling, but the media goes between points A & B. it will need > to be call-stateful, like a UA. > > BG > > > > At 12:18 PM 04/25/2001 -0700, kanumuri sreeram wrote: > > > > hi all, > > I have a douth regarding the 3pcc in sip. > > I am clear that this is possible with the help of the controller. > > like it is what which will take care of the signaling and the > media will be transfer will be taking place among them selves "true" i.e. > > A-------------CONTROLLER---------------------------B > > direct media transfer > > =================================== > > > > ok but I am not clear about this entity controller can any one > make me clear like what is ? > > if this is a different entity it should also be show in the > architecture of sip > > like sipua,proxy,rediect,CONTROLLER.... > > so I am clear with me douth can anu one help me > > sreeram > > > > > > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things > you want at great prices > > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 10 14:18:02 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id OAA05509 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 14:18:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26B3A44399; Thu, 10 May 2001 14:18:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mail.inetmail.att.net (mailhost1.inetmail.att.net [204.127.132.33]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D91A344339 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 14:17:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from email.masconit.com ([12.41.17.214]) by mail.inetmail.att.net (mtiagic01) with ESMTP id <20010510181713gi128283ape>; Thu, 10 May 2001 18:17:13 +0000 Received: from ashok (RANJIT [12.41.17.196]) by email.masconit.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id JB7PPZF0; Thu, 10 May 2001 13:24:36 -0500 Message-ID: <02b201c0d97e$452f2c40$c411290c@masconit.com> Reply-To: "Ranjit Avasarala" From: "Ranjit Avasarala" To: "Sip Bell Labs" References: Subject: Re: [SIP] 3gpp--controoler????? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 13:23:11 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi I have a query related to back to back UA i.e the controller. So is it that controller's job is only call signaling part and not media? and will controller be a seperate entity . or could it be a part of proxy server? Regards Ranjit Mascon Communication Technologies http://www.masconit.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Ajay K. Garg To: Sip Bell Labs Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 10:59 AM Subject: RE: [SIP] 3gpp--controoler????? Where I can find more information about this controller. Please point me to the right URL. Thanks -Ajay > > Hi. > > I think that there is one thing that should be stated here very > clearly about the Controller/B2B-UA. > > That is a session setup between users1 and user2 using the > Controller will have two different call-id's > compared to an ordinary session setup directly from user1 to > user2, which would hold the very same > call-id. > > This provides the ''controller'' with the ability to manipulate > each call-leg separately at a later > state like after an external timer expires in the middle of an > established session. > > With kind regards, Michael Junge Pedersen. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Brian Gracely [mailto:bgracely@cisco.com] > Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 11:12 PM > To: kanumuri sreeram; Jonathan Rosenberg; 'Drage, Keith (Keith)'; > 'Mayank Sharma'; Chen, Xin (Xin); 'sip@lists.bell-labs.com' > Subject: Re: [SIP] 3gpp--controoler????? > > > the 3pcc controller can also be thought of as a back-to-back > UA.....ie. 2 UAs in the same logical entity. It terminates the > signaling, but the media goes between points A & B. it will need > to be call-stateful, like a UA. > > BG > > > > At 12:18 PM 04/25/2001 -0700, kanumuri sreeram wrote: > > > > hi all, > > I have a douth regarding the 3pcc in sip. > > I am clear that this is possible with the help of the controller. > > like it is what which will take care of the signaling and the > media will be transfer will be taking place among them selves "true" i.e. > > A-------------CONTROLLER---------------------------B > > direct media transfer > > =================================== > > > > ok but I am not clear about this entity controller can any one > make me clear like what is ? > > if this is a different entity it should also be show in the > architecture of sip > > like sipua,proxy,rediect,CONTROLLER.... > > so I am clear with me douth can anu one help me > > sreeram > > > > > > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things > you want at great prices > > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 10 14:24:00 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id OAA05690 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 14:24:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCE73443E2; Thu, 10 May 2001 14:24:03 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from imr2.ericy.com (imr2.ericy.com [12.34.240.68]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 274E3443DE for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 14:23:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mr7.exu.ericsson.se (mr7att.ericy.com [138.85.92.15]) by imr2.ericy.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4AINJ811303; Thu, 10 May 2001 13:23:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from newman.exu.ericsson.se (newman.exu.ericsson.se [138.85.75.179]) by mr7.exu.ericsson.se (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4AINId22518; Thu, 10 May 2001 13:23:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pc050163 (pc050163.exu.ericsson.se [138.85.50.163]) by newman.exu.ericsson.se (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA19443; Thu, 10 May 2001 13:23:17 -0500 (CDT) From: adam.roach@ericsson.com Reply-To: To: "'Drage, Keith (Keith)'" , , "Jonathan Rosenberg" Subject: RE: [SIP] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-service-examples-01.txt Message-ID: <61D824C63B99D311975E00508B0CC98502251795@eamrcnt717.exu.ericsson.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <475FF955A05DD411980D00508B6D5FB0023432A5@en0033exch001u.uk.lucent.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 13:23:14 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > -----Original Message----- > From: Drage, Keith (Keith) [mailto:drage@lucent.com] > > I was looking for the normative specification of this 0.0.0.0 > in the SDP c > line. The RFC does not specify it, and the service examples > mentions it but > this is informational. Given that the interpretation of this > particular c= > line would appear to be not to send data, then I would judge > thsi requires > some statement in a standards track SDP specification. > > Have I missed it somewhere? Putting media streams on hold isn't a generally applicable SDP feature (e.g. it would make no sense in, say, a multicast of a space shuttle launch); it's something SIP needs to define in the context of multimedia. So, you won't find it in any SDP drafts. The normative text you're looking for is in appendix B of the bis-02 draft, which describes SIP's *usage* of SDP. In particular, look at section B.6. /a _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 10 15:07:01 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id PAA06327 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 15:07:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14EC5443D4; Thu, 10 May 2001 15:07:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@share.research.bell-labs.com Received: from crufty.research.bell-labs.com (crufty.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.49]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 13752443D3 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 15:06:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([135.104.27.211]) by crufty; Thu May 10 15:03:09 EDT 2001 Received: by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) id 7F73D44380; Thu, 10 May 2001 14:52:29 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from uk0006exch001h.wins.lucent.com (uk0006exch001h.uk.lucent.com [135.86.160.150]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE8674437D for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 14:52:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by uk0006exch001h.uk.lucent.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 10 May 2001 19:52:28 +0100 Message-ID: <475FF955A05DD411980D00508B6D5FB001AC321C@en0033exch001u.uk.lucent.com> From: "Drage, Keith (Keith)" To: Jo Hornsby , "'adam.roach@ericsson.com'" Cc: "Drage, Keith (Keith)" , Jonathan Rosenberg , sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] Further editorial nit in the bis draft MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 19:52:27 +0100 The main thing I am looking for is that we come up with a consistent rule that means that anybody specifying a new method does not have to write their own set of rules - the rules will be in the bis draft. Both Adam's (and others) approach (allowed only on methods where the final response is not immediate), and the current bis approach (allowed on all methods whether it is useful or not) can be drafted as a consistent set of rules, and at the end of the day, I do not mind which we get. Having agreed that set of rules, we can (should) then remove all information relating to CANCEL from the various extension drafts, and maybe even write such a statement in the guidelines document for authors of future extensions, safe in the knowledge that there is no scope for misinterpretation amongst implementors (well some days we can be optimistic :-) ). Keith Keith Drage Lucent Technologies Tel: +44 1793 776249 Email: drage@lucent.com > ---------- > From: adam.roach@ericsson.com[SMTP:adam.roach@ericsson.com] > Reply To: adam.roach@ericsson.com > Sent: 10 May 2001 19:28 > To: Jo Hornsby > Cc: Drage, Keith (Keith); Jonathan Rosenberg; sip@lists.bell-labs.com > Subject: RE: [SIP] Further editorial nit in the bis draft > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Christer Holmberg [mailto:christer.holmberg@lmf.ericsson.se] > > > > One proposal: "CANCEL can only be used to terminate an INVITE > > request". > > Short and simple :) > > This is exactly what I suggested to the group in Minneapolis. I haven't > heard any arguments why this is a bad idea, and only one very weak one > about how forbidding "CANCEL" for non-invites would change the overall > network behavior from its current state. > > In light of the fact that INVITE is the only long-running transaction > we allow, I beleive that forbidding CANCEL for non-INVITEs helps new > implementors by making it clear that they don't need code to handle > situations which cannot arise. > > /a > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 10 16:03:02 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA07308 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 16:03:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63B4344399; Thu, 10 May 2001 16:03:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from devonshire.cnchost.com (devonshire.concentric.net [207.155.248.12]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5E8D44339 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 16:02:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from medhavi ([207.113.13.1]) by devonshire.cnchost.com id QAA13646; Thu, 10 May 2001 16:02:01 -0400 (EDT) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.11] Message-ID: <008101c0d98b$d7500100$1fe4b4cc@nextone.com> From: "Medhavi Bhatia" To: "Sip Bell Labs" References: <02b201c0d97e$452f2c40$c411290c@masconit.com> Subject: Re: [SIP] 3gpp--controoler????? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 16:00:01 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit True, only signalling. However he may need to know the SDP getting relayed across. Controller does not have to be in the proxy. Its a very good way to manipulate conferencing, and media server calls, so it can reside on a separate entity which controls conferencing say. However the proxy may impelement this function too. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ranjit Avasarala" To: "Sip Bell Labs" Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [SIP] 3gpp--controoler????? > Hi > I have a query related to back to back UA i.e the controller. So is it > that controller's job is only call signaling part and not media? > and will controller be a seperate entity . or could it be a part of > proxy server? > > > Regards > Ranjit > Mascon Communication Technologies > http://www.masconit.com > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ajay K. Garg > To: Sip Bell Labs > Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 10:59 AM > Subject: RE: [SIP] 3gpp--controoler????? > > > Where I can find more information about this controller. Please point me to > the right URL. > > Thanks > -Ajay > > > > Hi. > > > > I think that there is one thing that should be stated here very > > clearly about the Controller/B2B-UA. > > > > That is a session setup between users1 and user2 using the > > Controller will have two different call-id's > > compared to an ordinary session setup directly from user1 to > > user2, which would hold the very same > > call-id. > > > > This provides the ''controller'' with the ability to manipulate > > each call-leg separately at a later > > state like after an external timer expires in the middle of an > > established session. > > > > With kind regards, Michael Junge Pedersen. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Brian Gracely [mailto:bgracely@cisco.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 11:12 PM > > To: kanumuri sreeram; Jonathan Rosenberg; 'Drage, Keith (Keith)'; > > 'Mayank Sharma'; Chen, Xin (Xin); 'sip@lists.bell-labs.com' > > Subject: Re: [SIP] 3gpp--controoler????? > > > > > > the 3pcc controller can also be thought of as a back-to-back > > UA.....ie. 2 UAs in the same logical entity. It terminates the > > signaling, but the media goes between points A & B. it will need > > to be call-stateful, like a UA. > > > > BG > > > > > > > > At 12:18 PM 04/25/2001 -0700, kanumuri sreeram wrote: > > > > > > > > hi all, > > > > I have a douth regarding the 3pcc in sip. > > > > I am clear that this is possible with the help of the controller. > > > > like it is what which will take care of the signaling and the > > media will be transfer will be taking place among them selves "true" i.e. > > > > A-------------CONTROLLER---------------------------B > > > > direct media transfer > > > > =================================== > > > > > > > > ok but I am not clear about this entity controller can any one > > make me clear like what is ? > > > > if this is a different entity it should also be show in the > > architecture of sip > > > > like sipua,proxy,rediect,CONTROLLER.... > > > > so I am clear with me douth can anu one help me > > > > sreeram > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things > > you want at great prices > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > > To subscribe to it, send mail to > > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 10 16:21:00 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA07620 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 16:21:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75A58443DE; Thu, 10 May 2001 16:21:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from broadsoft.com (broadsoft.com [161.58.239.68]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 469FB44399 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 16:20:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tate ([64.243.180.244]) by broadsoft.com (8.11.2) id f4AKKKT26560; Thu, 10 May 2001 16:20:20 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: From: "Brett Tate" To: "'Steve Donovan'" , Subject: RE: [SIP] Session timer considered harmful (was RE: draft-ietf-sip-session- timer: refresh rate) Message-ID: <000e01c0d98e$f3f866a0$2b01a8c0@broadsoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 In-Reply-To: <9BF66EBF6BEFD942915B4D4D45C051F318035E@DYN-TX-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com> Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 16:22:35 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > 1) A method for a proxy or UAS to reject a session timer > request because the > session timer value is too small. This is needed for both > approaches, so > should not be controversial. I would propose that we use the > 488 response > with a reason phrase of Session Timer Too Small (or something > similar). I > would also propose that the session-expires header be used in > this response > to indicate the minimal acceptable session timer value. > (Note: I'm trying > to reuse an existing response instead of creating a new one. We can > certainly create a new one, if there is consensus to do so). Reusing 488 is fine, but the current bis definition only reflects that SDP is the problem instead of potentially the headers. Reusing Session-Expires in the 488 is fine, but it would potentially cause confusion with the fact that currently Session-Expires in a negative response will still reset session timer. [However as I've mentioned previously, I wish negative response couldn't extend sessions since a proxy could have generated the negative response instead of the UAS.] > 2) We change the session-expires header to only support delta > times with a > granularity of minutes. I think there is consensus that > session-expires > values of less than one minute are not needed. Keeping granularity in seconds is fine with me. I'm more concerned about the minimum Session-Expires value. > 3) We add stronger wording in the security section of the > draft describing > the smurf attack that Jonathan is worried about. As part of > the wording, we > add the statement that entities supporting session timer > SHOULD support a > minimum time of n minutes. I propose we take Jonathan's > suggestion and make > n = 30. The obvious difference here is that Jonathan's > suggestion becomes a > SHOULD instead of a MUST. I prefer that Session-Expires MUST NOT be less than 2 minutes. This helps accommodate for the retries of 200 and INVITE over UDP to get the session extended. I'd actually prefer a higher value, but I assume that some would be uncomfortable with the "MUST NOT" part of the text if the value was higher. In addition to the MUST NOT be less than 2 minutes, I prefer the draft state that Session-Expires SHOULD NOT be less 30 minutes for SIP messaging that traverses a public network. Based on the recommendation of sending refreshers after 1/2 Session-Expires, the Session-Expires triggered re-INVITEs MUST NOT occur more often than every minute and SHOULD NOT occur more often than every 15 minutes. It might also be beneficial to mention in the draft that support of the Session-Expires can lead to more re-INVITE collisions, especially if the Session-Expires value is small. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 10 19:17:01 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id TAA09892 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 19:17:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A4A644399; Thu, 10 May 2001 19:17:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from cundall.co.uk (unknown [193.118.202.13]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0C08844339 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 19:16:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [193.118.202.14] ([193.118.202.14] verified) by cundall.co.uk (Stalker SMTP Server 1.7) with ESMTP id S.0000053393 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 00:16:32 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: lwc@derek.roke.co.uk (Unverified) Message-Id: To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com From: Lawrence Conroy Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Subject: [SIP] Codec Alternatives Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 00:04:55 +0100 Hi Folks, A question for everyone:: If I have an m= line in the "final" SDP that has a set of payload types, (i.e. after the 200/ACK) then I understand that this means that I am ready to accept, on this port, RTP packets containing any of the payload types listed on the m= line. For example... m=audio 3456 RTP/AVP 97 96 0 15 I don't believe that it's MANDATORY to have a single payload type per m= line at the end of an INVITE/1xx/2xx/ACK set up. Am I correct, or missing something (more than normal, that is)? All the best, Lawrence -- lwc@roke.co.uk: +44 1794 833666::: _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 10 20:20:02 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id UAA10510 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 20:20:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A01D044399; Thu, 10 May 2001 20:20:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from web13208.mail.yahoo.com (web13208.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.174.193]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 3206744339 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 20:19:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20010511001928.46541.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [38.204.3.195] by web13208.mail.yahoo.com; Thu, 10 May 2001 17:19:28 PDT From: Harbor Dong To: SIP MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [SIP] a simple question Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 17:19:28 -0700 (PDT) what does the "PRACK" method do? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 10 20:31:03 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id UAA10610 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 20:31:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 021E3443F7; Thu, 10 May 2001 20:31:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from devonshire.cnchost.com (devonshire.concentric.net [207.155.248.12]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A53A443F2 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 20:30:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from deewana (adsl-138-88-42-197.bellatlantic.net [138.88.42.197]) by devonshire.cnchost.com id UAA04021; Thu, 10 May 2001 20:30:15 -0400 (EDT) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.11] From: "Medhavi Bhatia" To: "SIP" Subject: RE: [SIP] a simple question Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 In-Reply-To: <20010511001928.46541.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 20:34:38 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit draft-ietf-sip-100rel-03.txt > -----Original Message----- > From: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com > [mailto:sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com]On Behalf Of Harbor Dong > Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 8:19 PM > To: SIP > Subject: [SIP] a simple question > > > what does the "PRACK" method do? > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 10 20:33:35 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id UAA10648 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 20:33:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 066AB443FF; Thu, 10 May 2001 20:32:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from broadsoft.com (broadsoft.com [161.58.239.68]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF55A443F2 for ; Thu, 10 May 2001 20:31:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tate ([64.243.180.244]) by broadsoft.com (8.11.2) id f4B0V1o63313; Thu, 10 May 2001 20:31:01 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: From: "Brett Tate" To: "'SIP'" Subject: RE: [SIP] a simple question Message-ID: <002301c0d9b1$f9c2b5e0$2b01a8c0@broadsoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 In-Reply-To: <20010511001928.46541.qmail@web13208.mail.yahoo.com> Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 20:33:17 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > what does the "PRACK" method do? Defined in the following draft. http://search.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-100rel-03.txt _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 11 00:21:24 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id AAA15963 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 00:21:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A075144399; Fri, 11 May 2001 00:21:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from hindon.hss.co.in (unknown [202.54.26.202]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C557044339 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 00:20:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hsssun01.hss.hns.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hindon.hss.co.in (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id f4B4M0i28802 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 09:52:01 +0530 (IST) Received: from sampark.hss.hns.com (sampark [139.85.229.22]) by hsssun01.hss.hns.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with SMTP id f4B4TfP02486 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 09:59:47 +0530 (IST) Received: by sampark.hss.hns.com(Lotus SMTP MTA Internal build v4.6.2 (651.2 6-10-1998)) id 65256A49.0017AE9D ; Fri, 11 May 2001 09:48:40 +0530 X-Lotus-FromDomain: HSSBLR From: pnath@hss.hns.com To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Message-ID: <65256A49.0017AE2E.00@sampark.hss.hns.com> Subject: [SIP] include me in the mailing list Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 09:48:38 +0530 _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 11 10:44:01 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA11703 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 10:44:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 189C344399; Fri, 11 May 2001 10:44:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A77A44339 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 07:12:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA03812; Fri, 11 May 2001 07:12:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105111112.HAA03812@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: confctrl@isi.edu, sip@lists.bell-labs.com, tsvwg@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: [SIP] I-D ACTION:draft-fairlie-mmusic-sdp-sctp-00.txt Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 07:12:49 -0400 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : Guidelines for specifying SCTP-based media transport using SDP Author(s) : R. Fairlie-Cuninghame Filename : draft-fairlie-mmusic-sdp-sctp-00.txt Pages : 18 Date : 10-May-01 This document describes a set of guidelines for using the Session Description Protocol (SDP) to specify media transport using the Stream Control Transmission Protocol (SCTP). A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-fairlie-mmusic-sdp-sctp-00.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-fairlie-mmusic-sdp-sctp-00.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-fairlie-mmusic-sdp-sctp-00.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20010510120408.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-fairlie-mmusic-sdp-sctp-00.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-fairlie-mmusic-sdp-sctp-00.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20010510120408.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 11 10:59:00 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA12115 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 10:59:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BCA7443EF; Fri, 11 May 2001 10:59:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from web14201.mail.yahoo.com (web14201.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.143]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 68FF5443EB for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 10:58:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20010511145846.84233.qmail@web14201.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [202.177.128.86] by web14201.mail.yahoo.com; Fri, 11 May 2001 07:58:46 PDT From: kanumuri sreeram To: brett@broadsoft.com, "'SIP'" Cc: sip@vovida.org, vocal@vovida.org In-Reply-To: <002301c0d9b1$f9c2b5e0$2b01a8c0@broadsoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1649760492-989593126=:76172" Subject: [SIP] a basic question Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 07:58:46 -0700 (PDT) --0-1649760492-989593126=:76172 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi all, i have a question regarding RTP like, when will the RTP media part be estabilshed in SIP is it like this A B invites -----------------> ok <--------------- ACK -----------------> ========> RTP is established from A to B now immediately after the B will have the ACK reached it will also establish the RTP <========= RTP is established from B to A(Session) is it like this? so when implementing the sip i should send ACK and the RTP session estabilshment at a time isit? to the other party. (OR) After the B as got the RTP session Then ............ can u make me clear Thanks in advance sreeram --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Click and bid on cool stuff like Dave Matthews Band Tickets & more! --0-1649760492-989593126=:76172 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Hi all,

i have a question regarding RTP like,

when will the RTP media part be estabilshed in SIP

is it like this

A                   B

    invites

----------------->

     ok
<---------------

    ACK

----------------->

  ========> RTP is established from A to B

now immediately after the B will have the ACK reached it will also establish the RTP

<=========  RTP is established from B to A(Session)

is it like this?

so when implementing the sip i should send ACK and the RTP session estabilshment at a time isit? to the other party.

(OR)

After the B as got the RTP session Then ............

can u make me clear

Thanks in advance

sreeram

Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Click and bid on cool stuff like Dave Matthews Band Tickets & more! --0-1649760492-989593126=:76172-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 11 11:12:05 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA12440 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 11:12:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 020F544406; Fri, 11 May 2001 11:12:07 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mgw-x3.nokia.com (mgw-x3.nokia.com [131.228.20.26]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 350CD443EB for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 11:11:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from esvir07nok.ntc.nokia.com (esvir07nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.39]) by mgw-x3.nokia.com (Switch-2.1.0/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id f4BCvfv03052 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 15:57:52 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh01nok.ntc.nokia.com (unverified) by esvir07nok.ntc.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.1) with ESMTP id ; Fri, 11 May 2001 15:56:56 +0300 Received: from mgw.research.nokia.com ([172.21.33.76]) by esebh01nok.ntc.nokia.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2652.78) id JW3A5YDA; Fri, 11 May 2001 15:56:54 +0300 Received: from agni.research.nokia.com (IDENT:root@agni.research.nokia.com [172.21.40.24]) by mgw.research.nokia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA22481; Fri, 11 May 2001 15:56:52 +0300 (EETDST) Received: (from ppessi@localhost) by agni.research.nokia.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) id f4BCugm03590; Fri, 11 May 2001 15:56:42 +0300 X-Authentication-Warning: agni.research.nokia.com: ppessi set sender to Pekka.Pessi@nokia.com using -f To: "Drage, Keith (Keith)" Cc: "'Henning G. Schulzrinne'" , "'sip@lists.bell-labs.com'" Subject: Re: [SIP] Further editorial nit in the bis draft References: <475FF955A05DD411980D00508B6D5FB001AC31D7@en0033exch001u.uk.lucent.com> X-face: #V(jdpv[lI!TNUU=2*oh:="#suS*ponXW"yr6G;~L}uZ\JfD\"IG#G{j`hZI;=DmT\H pfDMyJ`i=:M;BM3R.`[>P^ER8+]i From: Pekka Pessi In-Reply-To: "Drage, Keith's message of "Wed, 25 Apr 2001 10:38:19 +0100" Message-ID: Lines: 20 User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: 11 May 2001 15:56:42 +0300 In message <475FF955A05DD411980D00508B6D5FB001AC31D7@en0033exch001u.uk.lucent.com> "Drage, Keith (Keith)" writes: > A BYE request from either called or calling party terminates any > pending INVITE at a UA, but the INVITE request transaction MUST be > completed with a final response and ACK. Another nit. This contradicts with the text in 11.3: Pekka 11.3 Caller Receives Response to Initial Request Multiple responses may arrive at the UAC for a single INVITE request, due to a forking proxy. Each response is distinguished by the "tag" parameter in the To header field, and each represents a distinct call leg. The caller MAY choose to acknowledge or terminate the call with each responding UAS. To acknowledge, it sends an ACK request, and to terminate it sends a BYE request. The To header field in the ACK or BYE MUST be the same as the To field in the 200 response, including any tag. The From header field MUST be the same as the From header field in the 200 (OK) response, including any tag. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 11 12:43:02 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA15040 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 12:43:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE52C44339; Fri, 11 May 2001 12:43:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mailcity.com (fes2.whowhere.com [209.185.123.102]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id D733D44338 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 12:42:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by mailcity.com; Fri May 11 09:42:01 2001 To: brett@broadsoft.com, "'SIP'" , "kanumuri sreeram" From: "Info Van" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: sip@vovida.org, vocal@vovida.org X-Sent-Mail: off Reply-To: infovaan@lycos.com X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [SIP] a basic question X-Sender-Ip: 207.31.112.126 Organization: Lycos Mail (http://mail.lycos.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Language: en Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 12:42:01 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit wrong place to ask this question. join the sip-implementers@cs.columbia.edu for questions about existing SIP, this group is for SIP improvements and further work (as far as i know). iv. -- On Fri, 11 May 2001 07:58:46 kanumuri sreeram wrote: > > Hi all, > >i have a question regarding RTP like, > >when will the RTP media part be estabilshed in SIP > >is it like this > >A B > > invites > >-----------------> > > ok ><--------------- > > ACK > >-----------------> > > ========> RTP is established from A to B >now immediately after the B will have the ACK reached it will also establish the RTP ><========= RTP is established from B to A(Session) > >is it like this? > >so when implementing the sip i should send ACK and the RTP session estabilshment at a time isit? to the other party. > >(OR) > >After the B as got the RTP session Then ............ > >can u make me clear > >Thanks in advance > >sreeram > > >--------------------------------- >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Auctions - Click and bid on cool stuff like Dave Matthews Band Tickets & more! Get 250 color business cards for FREE! http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/ _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 11 12:49:30 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA15184 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 12:49:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80359443AA; Fri, 11 May 2001 12:44:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mailcity.com (fes2.whowhere.com [209.185.123.102]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 4813A443A9 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 12:43:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by mailcity.com; Fri May 11 09:43:46 2001 To: brett@broadsoft.com, "'SIP'" , "kanumuri sreeram" From: "Info Van" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: sip@vovida.org, vocal@vovida.org X-Sent-Mail: off Reply-To: infovaan@lycos.com X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [SIP] a basic question X-Sender-Ip: 207.31.112.126 Organization: Lycos Mail (http://mail.lycos.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Language: en Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 12:43:46 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit also, it's NOT a very good etiquette to "cross-post" to too many groups, who have well-defined focus and area of work. -- On Fri, 11 May 2001 07:58:46 kanumuri sreeram wrote: > > Hi all, > >i have a question regarding RTP like, > >when will the RTP media part be estabilshed in SIP > >is it like this > >A B > > invites > >-----------------> > > ok ><--------------- > > ACK > >-----------------> > > ========> RTP is established from A to B >now immediately after the B will have the ACK reached it will also establish the RTP ><========= RTP is established from B to A(Session) > >is it like this? > >so when implementing the sip i should send ACK and the RTP session estabilshment at a time isit? to the other party. > >(OR) > >After the B as got the RTP session Then ............ > >can u make me clear > >Thanks in advance > >sreeram > > >--------------------------------- >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Auctions - Click and bid on cool stuff like Dave Matthews Band Tickets & more! Get 250 color business cards for FREE! http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/ _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 11 17:21:00 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id RAA20853 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 17:20:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 890A944339; Fri, 11 May 2001 17:21:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from motgate4.mot.com (motgate4.mot.com [144.189.100.102]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8559B44338 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 17:20:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: [from pobox2.mot.com (pobox2.mot.com [136.182.15.8]) by motgate4.mot.com (motgate4 2.1) with ESMTP id OAA23949 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 14:20:02 -0700 (MST)] Received: [from il35exm01.cig.mot.com (IL35EXM01.cig.mot.com [160.19.16.101]) by pobox2.mot.com (MOT-pobox2 2.0) with ESMTP id OAA12201 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 14:20:01 -0700 (MST)] Received: by IL35EXM01.cig.mot.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <2RXQ6SR4>; Fri, 11 May 2001 16:19:57 -0500 Message-ID: <35DBB8B7AC89D4118E98009027B1009B1F23FC@IL27EXM10.cig.mot.com> From: Baniel Uri-CUB001 To: "'Alan Johnston'" Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] Comments about draft-ietf-sip-call-flows-03.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 16:19:55 -0500 Alan In draft-ietf-sip-call-flows-04.txt section 3.1.1 Successful Simple SIP to SIP: User B uses the same tag value (tag=8321234356) for the 'To' field (in its response) and then for the 'From' field when it initiates the 'Bye' transaction. Bis02 section 6.26 says: "The UA SHOULD use different tags for From and To header fields" Am I missing something here? Thanks, Uri ================================================================= Uri.Baniel@motorola.com, Tel: (847) 632 4616; Fax: (847) 632 3963; "Learning that does not daily increase will daily decrease" E.w.c ================================================================= _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 11 18:09:59 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id SAA21737 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 18:09:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CA3A44339; Fri, 11 May 2001 18:10:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from motgate4.mot.com (motgate4.mot.com [144.189.100.102]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5468244338 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 18:09:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: [from mothost.mot.com (mothost.mot.com [129.188.137.101]) by motgate4.mot.com (motgate4 2.1) with ESMTP id PAA12536 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 15:09:04 -0700 (MST)] Received: [from il35exm01.cig.mot.com (IL35EXM01.cig.mot.com [160.19.16.101]) by mothost.mot.com (MOT-mothost 2.0) with ESMTP id PAA21081 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 15:09:04 -0700 (MST)] Received: by IL35EXM01.cig.mot.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <2RXQ6TZZ>; Fri, 11 May 2001 17:09:04 -0500 Message-ID: <35DBB8B7AC89D4118E98009027B1009B1F23FE@IL27EXM10.cig.mot.com> From: Baniel Uri-CUB001 To: "'Alan Johnston'" Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] Comments about draft-ietf-sip-call-flows-03.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 17:09:02 -0500 Alan According Bis section 11.4: "Regardless of whether the caller or callee is generating the new request, the header fields in the request are set as follows. For the desired call leg, the To header field is set to the remote address, and the From header field is set to the local address (both including any tags)" So does that explain why User B has reused the To-Tag as From-Tag in its subsequent request? It does make sense, if that it is the explanation, since User A knows User B by the To-Tag, so when it gets the same tag in the From field it knows what instance of user B it came from. Is that so? What would you say about the following sequence, which has been built based on the above assumption and based on the call-flows draft (note the '???' at the last line) A -> B (Request1): FromTag='fa'; ToTag=null B -> A (200 response): FromTag='fa'; ToTag='tb' A -> B (subsequent request): FromTag='fa'; ToTag=null B -> A (subsequent request): FromTag='tb'; ToTag=null A -> B (200 response): FromTag='tb'; ToTag='ta' A -> B (subsequent request): FromTag='fa or tb???'; ToTag=null ================================================================= Uri.Baniel@motorola.com, Tel: (847) 632 4616; Fax: (847) 632 3963; "Learning that does not daily increase will daily decrease" E.w.c ================================================================= > -----Original Message----- > From: Baniel Uri-CUB001 [mailto:Uri_Baniel-CUB001@email.mot.com] > Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 4:20 PM > To: 'Alan Johnston' > Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com > Subject: RE: [SIP] Comments about draft-ietf-sip-call-flows-03.txt > > > Alan > > In draft-ietf-sip-call-flows-04.txt section 3.1.1 Successful > Simple SIP to SIP: > > User B uses the same tag value (tag=8321234356) for the 'To' > field (in its response) and then for the 'From' field > when it initiates the 'Bye' transaction. > > Bis02 section 6.26 says: "The UA SHOULD use different tags > for From and To header fields" > > Am I missing something here? > Thanks, > > Uri > > ================================================================= > Uri.Baniel@motorola.com, > Tel: (847) 632 4616; Fax: (847) 632 3963; > "Learning that does not daily increase will daily decrease" E.w.c > ================================================================= > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 11 20:12:00 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id UAA23195 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 20:12:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7950A44339; Fri, 11 May 2001 20:12:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from dgesmtp02.wcom.com (dgesmtp02.wcom.com [199.249.16.17]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D095D44338 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 20:11:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dgismtp04.wcomnet.com ([166.38.58.144]) by firewall.mcit.com (PMDF V5.2-33 #42261) with ESMTP id <0GD700DFE4IPX3@firewall.mcit.com> for sip@lists.bell-labs.com; Sat, 12 May 2001 00:11:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from dgismtp04.wcomnet.com by dgismtp04.wcomnet.com (PMDF V5.2-33 #42262) with SMTP id <0GD700J014IO6J@dgismtp04.wcomnet.com>; Sat, 12 May 2001 00:11:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wcom.com ([166.42.34.54]) by dgismtp04.wcomnet.com (PMDF V5.2-33 #42262) with ESMTP id <0GD700I2K4IB6D@dgismtp04.wcomnet.com>; Sat, 12 May 2001 00:11:00 +0000 (GMT) From: Alan Johnston Subject: Re: [SIP] Comments about draft-ietf-sip-call-flows-03.txt To: Baniel Uri-CUB001 Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Message-id: <3AFC7F62.20EEDA08@wcom.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <35DBB8B7AC89D4118E98009027B1009B1F23FE@IL27EXM10.cig.mot.com> Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 19:10:12 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Uri, A tag is associated with a URL, so when the To and From URLs are swapped, so are the tags. Once the tags are added, they are used throughout the session and become part of the call leg that uniquely identifies the call. If a tag is dropped in a request (as in your example, see below), the call leg no longer matches, and the UAS will reply with a 481 Call leg does not exist. Thanks, Alan Johnston WorldCom sip:alan.johnston@siptest.wcom.com Baniel Uri-CUB001 wrote: > Alan > > According Bis section 11.4: > > "Regardless of whether the caller or callee is generating the new request, the header fields in the request are set as follows. For the desired call leg, the To header field is set to the remote address, and the From header field is set to the local address (both including any tags)" > > So does that explain why User B has reused the To-Tag as From-Tag in its subsequent request? > It does make sense, if that it is the explanation, since User A knows User B by the To-Tag, so when it gets the same tag in the From field it knows what instance of user B it came from. > > Is that so? > > What would you say about the following sequence, which has been built based on the above assumption and based on the call-flows draft (note the '???' at the last line) > > A -> B (Request1): FromTag='fa'; ToTag=null > B -> A (200 response): FromTag='fa'; ToTag='tb' > From now on, every request and response should contain the two tags, fa and tb. > A -> B (subsequent request): FromTag='fa'; ToTag=null > The response to this request would be a 481 since to tag inserted by B is not present. > B -> A (subsequent request): FromTag='tb'; ToTag=null > Likewise, this request would receive a 481 > A -> B (200 response): FromTag='tb'; ToTag='ta' > A -> B (subsequent request): FromTag='fa or tb???'; ToTag=null > These two are also not correct. > > ================================================================= > Uri.Baniel@motorola.com, > Tel: (847) 632 4616; Fax: (847) 632 3963; > "Learning that does not daily increase will daily decrease" E.w.c > ================================================================= > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Baniel Uri-CUB001 [mailto:Uri_Baniel-CUB001@email.mot.com] > > Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 4:20 PM > > To: 'Alan Johnston' > > Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com > > Subject: RE: [SIP] Comments about draft-ietf-sip-call-flows-03.txt > > > > > > Alan > > > > In draft-ietf-sip-call-flows-04.txt section 3.1.1 Successful > > Simple SIP to SIP: > > > > User B uses the same tag value (tag=8321234356) for the 'To' > > field (in its response) and then for the 'From' field > > when it initiates the 'Bye' transaction. > > > > Bis02 section 6.26 says: "The UA SHOULD use different tags > > for From and To header fields" > > > > Am I missing something here? > > Thanks, > > > > Uri > > > > ================================================================= > > Uri.Baniel@motorola.com, > > Tel: (847) 632 4616; Fax: (847) 632 3963; > > "Learning that does not daily increase will daily decrease" E.w.c > > ================================================================= > > > > _______________________________________________ > > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > > To subscribe to it, send mail to > > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 11 21:13:00 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id VAA23731 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 21:13:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B105C44339; Fri, 11 May 2001 21:13:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@share.research.bell-labs.com Received: from crufty.research.bell-labs.com (crufty.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.49]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id BE41F44338 for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 21:12:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([135.104.27.211]) by crufty; Fri May 11 21:08:49 EDT 2001 Received: by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) id 4290F44380; Fri, 11 May 2001 20:58:12 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from uk0006exch001h.wins.lucent.com (uk0006exch001h.uk.lucent.com [135.86.160.150]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 601D24437D for ; Fri, 11 May 2001 20:58:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by uk0006exch001h.uk.lucent.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Sat, 12 May 2001 01:58:10 +0100 Message-ID: <475FF955A05DD411980D00508B6D5FB002343561@en0033exch001u.uk.lucent.com> From: "Drage, Keith (Keith)" To: "'sip@lists.bell-labs.com'" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Subject: [SIP] Timescales for the call-auth draft Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 01:58:07 +0100 In the split of work between SIP and SIPPING, the call-auth draft was allocated to the SIPPING group. As a result of discussion, it now appears to be allocated to the SIP group, as is correct as it contains SIP extensions. In the move however, all details seem to be missing from the calendar on the SIP WG supplemental pages. Can the WG chairs elighten us as to the envisaged dates for this. Keith Keith Drage Lucent Technologies Tel: +44 1793 776249 Email: drage@lucent.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Sat May 12 08:56:00 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id IAA16146 for ; Sat, 12 May 2001 08:55:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2B3044338; Sat, 12 May 2001 08:56:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from motgate4.mot.com (motgate4.mot.com [144.189.100.102]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9B7244337 for ; Sat, 12 May 2001 08:55:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: [from mothost.mot.com (mothost.mot.com [129.188.137.101]) by motgate4.mot.com (motgate4 2.1) with ESMTP id FAA11616 for ; Sat, 12 May 2001 05:55:24 -0700 (MST)] Received: [from il27exb01.cig.mot.com (il27exb01.cig.mot.com [136.182.15.100]) by mothost.mot.com (MOT-mothost 2.0) with ESMTP id FAA12477 for ; Sat, 12 May 2001 05:55:24 -0700 (MST)] Received: by il27exb01.cig.mot.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Sat, 12 May 2001 07:55:23 -0500 Message-ID: <35DBB8B7AC89D4118E98009027B1009B1F23FF@IL27EXM10.cig.mot.com> From: Baniel Uri-CUB001 To: "'Alan Johnston'" Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] Comments about draft-ietf-sip-call-flows-03.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 07:55:22 -0500 Alan 1. Thanks for the quick response! 2. Could you please take the 6 steps sequence I sent you and populate it with correct values from the point is starts to get wrong. 3. I will clarify my question again: Since truly the tags shall be viewed as identifiers of a specific UA instance (along with its URL), does a UA need to have/maintain A PAIR OF TWO SEPARATE tags, one that he uses in From field and the other for To field, or it may use the same ONE tag value??? Are there different situations, which may affect it? (i.e. if a UA has initiated a session and identified itself with a tag in the From field (say 'fa'). Then later on throughout the session it needs to respond to a request coming from a/the other UA, shall it use than for the To field the same tag it was using before for the For filed ('fa')? Uri -----Original Message----- From: Alan Johnston [mailto:alan.johnston@wcom.com] Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 7:10 PM To: Baniel Uri-CUB001 Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: Re: [SIP] Comments about draft-ietf-sip-call-flows-03.txt Uri, A tag is associated with a URL, so when the To and From URLs are swapped, so are the tags. Once the tags are added, they are used throughout the session and become part of the call leg that uniquely identifies the call. If a tag is dropped in a request (as in your example, see below), the call leg no longer matches, and the UAS will reply with a 481 Call leg does not exist. Thanks, Alan Johnston WorldCom sip:alan.johnston@siptest.wcom.com Baniel Uri-CUB001 wrote: > Alan > > According Bis section 11.4: > > "Regardless of whether the caller or callee is generating the new request, the header fields in the request are set as follows. For the desired call leg, the To header field is set to the remote address, and the From header field is set to the local address (both including any tags)" > > So does that explain why User B has reused the To-Tag as From-Tag in its subsequent request? > It does make sense, if that it is the explanation, since User A knows User B by the To-Tag, so when it gets the same tag in the From field it knows what instance of user B it came from. > > Is that so? > > What would you say about the following sequence, which has been built based on the above assumption and based on the call-flows draft (note the '???' at the last line) > > A -> B (Request1): FromTag='fa'; ToTag=null > B -> A (200 response): FromTag='fa'; ToTag='tb' > From now on, every request and response should contain the two tags, fa and tb. > A -> B (subsequent request): FromTag='fa'; ToTag=null > The response to this request would be a 481 since to tag inserted by B is not present. > B -> A (subsequent request): FromTag='tb'; ToTag=null > Likewise, this request would receive a 481 > A -> B (200 response): FromTag='tb'; ToTag='ta' > A -> B (subsequent request): FromTag='fa or tb???'; ToTag=null > These two are also not correct. > > ================================================================= > Uri.Baniel@motorola.com, > Tel: (847) 632 4616; Fax: (847) 632 3963; > "Learning that does not daily increase will daily decrease" E.w.c > ================================================================= > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Baniel Uri-CUB001 [mailto:Uri_Baniel-CUB001@email.mot.com] > > Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 4:20 PM > > To: 'Alan Johnston' > > Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com > > Subject: RE: [SIP] Comments about draft-ietf-sip-call-flows-03.txt > > > > > > Alan > > > > In draft-ietf-sip-call-flows-04.txt section 3.1.1 Successful > > Simple SIP to SIP: > > > > User B uses the same tag value (tag=8321234356) for the 'To' > > field (in its response) and then for the 'From' field > > when it initiates the 'Bye' transaction. > > > > Bis02 section 6.26 says: "The UA SHOULD use different tags > > for From and To header fields" > > > > Am I missing something here? > > Thanks, > > > > Uri > > > > ================================================================= > > Uri.Baniel@motorola.com, > > Tel: (847) 632 4616; Fax: (847) 632 3963; > > "Learning that does not daily increase will daily decrease" E.w.c > > ================================================================= > > > > _______________________________________________ > > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > > To subscribe to it, send mail to > > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Sun May 13 07:52:00 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id HAA09514 for ; Sun, 13 May 2001 07:51:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 353C444338; Sun, 13 May 2001 07:52:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from motgate2.mot.com (motgate2.mot.com [136.182.1.10]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDFBD44337 for ; Sun, 13 May 2001 07:51:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: [from pobox4.mot.com (pobox4.mot.com [10.64.251.243]) by motgate2.mot.com (motgate2 2.1) with ESMTP id EAA20955 for ; Sun, 13 May 2001 04:51:16 -0700 (MST)] Received: [from il75exm04.cig.mot.com ([136.182.110.113]) by pobox4.mot.com (MOT-pobox4 2.0) with ESMTP id EAA08113 for ; Sun, 13 May 2001 04:51:16 -0700 (MST)] Received: by IL75EXM04 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Sun, 13 May 2001 06:51:15 -0500 Message-ID: <35DBB8B7AC89D4118E98009027B1009B1F2400@IL27EXM10.cig.mot.com> From: Baniel Uri-CUB001 To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [SIP] Branch ID Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 06:09:25 -0500 1. Is it true that with or without regard to branch IDs, a forking proxy needs to keep a list of network addresses of forked destinations, so it knows where to send consecutive requests such as Cancel or ACK to? 2. If the answer to (1) is YES, then is it true that the Branch ID is just an elegant (application layer) way to refer to the branches, i.e., if it was not there a forking proxy would have still known to tell one branch from another by their network addresses? 3. I am not suggesting there is any redundancy here, I just like to make sure I got it right. Uri _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Sun May 13 12:14:00 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA12312 for ; Sun, 13 May 2001 12:13:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E058A4434A; Sun, 13 May 2001 12:14:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mailcity.com (fes.whowhere.com [209.185.123.154]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0B01C44338 for ; Sun, 13 May 2001 12:13:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by mailcity.com; Sun May 13 09:12:55 2001 To: jmjung@telcoware.com, "SIP List" From: "Info Van" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off Reply-To: infovaan@lycos.com X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: RE: [SIP] a basic question X-Sender-Ip: 64.111.16.61 Organization: Lycos Mail (http://mail.lycos.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Language: en Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 12:12:55 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hi, u can send a mail to the email address with "subscribe" in it's body (nothing else, not even a subject line). in responce u'd get a descriptive mail, to which u must simply do "Reply To" using your mailer... (no modifications), and a final confirmatory mail would come thru, saying that u r in... hope this helps, iv. -- On Sat, 12 May 2001 09:35:14 ??? wrote: >Thank you for your information. > >Let me know how can I join the mailing list(sip-implementers@cs.columbia.edu) and what is the web-site address of that group. > >-----Original Message----- >From: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com [mailto:sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com]On Behalf Of Info Van >Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 1:42 AM >To: brett@broadsoft.com; 'SIP'; kanumuri sreeram >Cc: sip@vovida.org; vocal@vovida.org >Subject: Re: [SIP] a basic question > > >wrong place to ask this question. join the >sip-implementers@cs.columbia.edu for questions about existing SIP, this group is for SIP improvements and further work (as far as i know). > >iv. >-- > >On Fri, 11 May 2001 07:58:46 > kanumuri sreeram wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >>i have a question regarding RTP like, >> >>when will the RTP media part be estabilshed in SIP >> >>is it like this >> >>A B >> >> invites >> >>-----------------> >> >> ok >><--------------- >> >> ACK >> >>-----------------> >> >> ========> RTP is established from A to B >>now immediately after the B will have the ACK reached it will also establish the RTP >><========= RTP is established from B to A(Session) >> >>is it like this? >> >>so when implementing the sip i should send ACK and the RTP session estabilshment at a time isit? to the other party. >> >>(OR) >> >>After the B as got the RTP session Then ............ >> >>can u make me clear >> >>Thanks in advance >> >>sreeram >> Get 250 color business cards for FREE! http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/ _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Sun May 13 17:19:00 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id RAA14389 for ; Sun, 13 May 2001 17:18:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5C2544340; Sun, 13 May 2001 17:19:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@share.research.bell-labs.com Received: from crufty.research.bell-labs.com (crufty.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.49]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 037934433F for ; Sun, 13 May 2001 17:18:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([135.104.27.211]) by crufty; Sun May 13 17:14:27 EDT 2001 Received: by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) id C698144380; Sun, 13 May 2001 17:03:48 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from uk0006exch001h.wins.lucent.com (uk0006exch001h.uk.lucent.com [135.86.160.150]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A2544437D for ; Sun, 13 May 2001 17:03:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by uk0006exch001h.uk.lucent.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Sun, 13 May 2001 22:03:47 +0100 Message-ID: <475FF955A05DD411980D00508B6D5FB0023435B8@en0033exch001u.uk.lucent.com> From: "Drage, Keith (Keith)" To: "'Bryan Byerly'" , Igor Slepchin Cc: patrick.mourot@online.fr, "'sip@lists.bell-labs.com'" , sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu, stlevy@cisco.com Subject: RE: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of date MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 22:03:41 +0100 I suggest you look at the stage 2 documents for ISDN (Q.84.2through5 from memory - its somewhere around there anyway). You will find that the originating exchange receives all information about each forwarding hop (step by step as it occurs). The forwarded to exchange gets the original and last forwarding numbers. Whether these are presented to the end user depends on the wishes of the calling and forwarding users. Keith Keith Drage Lucent Technologies Tel: +44 1793 776249 Email: drage@lucent.com > ---------- > From: Igor Slepchin[SMTP:ISlepchin@dynamicsoft.com] > Sent: 08 May 2001 15:19 > To: 'Bryan Byerly'; Igor Slepchin > Cc: patrick.mourot@online.fr; sip@lists.bell-labs.com; > sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu; stlevy@cisco.com > Subject: RE: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of date > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bryan Byerly [mailto:byerly@cisco.com] snip > > Multiple diversions. > > Hmm, these are not really supported by PSTN. Just as your draft says, the > only information available in ISDN parameters are the called party and the > redirecting number. Nowhere does PSTN remember all the previous > redirections > like suggested by the draft. > > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Mon May 14 06:15:00 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id GAA06135 for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 06:15:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F15344348; Mon, 14 May 2001 06:15:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from smtp4.cluster.oleane.net (smtp4.cluster.oleane.net [195.25.12.62]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A81A44340 for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 06:14:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oleane (dyn-1-1-233.Vin.dialup.oleane.fr [195.25.4.233]) by smtp4.cluster.oleane.net with SMTP id f4EAEHG17292 for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 12:14:17 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <00b501c0dc5e$ac7291c0$8001a8c0@oleane.com> From: "Peter Lewis" To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00B2_01C0DC6F.6FA77560" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Subject: [SIP] VoDSL Europe 2002 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 12:14:33 +0200 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B2_01C0DC6F.6FA77560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable VoDSL Europe 2002=20 The Deployment Scenario=20 VoDSL Europe 2002, to be held February 12 to 15 in Paris, is the most = important international event of its kind entirely dedicated to VoDSL = networks.=20 A Call for proposals is online at: http://www.upperside.fr/vodsl02/vodsl02intro.htm VoDSL Europe will also be organized in Germany and Italy in 2002. ------=_NextPart_000_00B2_01C0DC6F.6FA77560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
VoDSL Europe 2002=20
The Deployment=20 Scenario

VoDSL = Europe=20 2002, to be held February 12 to 15 in Paris, is the most important = international=20 event of its kind entirely dedicated to VoDSL networks. =
A Call for proposals is online=20 at:
http://www.uppe= rside.fr/vodsl02/vodsl02intro.htm
VoDSL Europe will also be = organized in=20 Germany and Italy in=20 2002.
------=_NextPart_000_00B2_01C0DC6F.6FA77560-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Mon May 14 09:16:02 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA10124 for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 09:15:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 876404435C; Mon, 14 May 2001 09:16:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9269F4435A for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 09:15:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id JAA05095; Mon, 14 May 2001 09:18:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 14 May 2001 09:14:54 -0400 Message-ID: <9BF66EBF6BEFD942915B4D4D45C051F314A7D6@DYN-TX-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com> From: Robert Sparks To: "'Lawrence Conroy'" , sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] Codec Alternatives MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 09:10:39 -0400 You are correct. In fact, with more endpoints beginning to support 2833, it's the usual case. RjS -----Original Message----- From: Lawrence Conroy [mailto:lwc@roke.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 6:05 PM To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: [SIP] Codec Alternatives Hi Folks, A question for everyone:: If I have an m= line in the "final" SDP that has a set of payload types, (i.e. after the 200/ACK) then I understand that this means that I am ready to accept, on this port, RTP packets containing any of the payload types listed on the m= line. For example... m=audio 3456 RTP/AVP 97 96 0 15 I don't believe that it's MANDATORY to have a single payload type per m= line at the end of an INVITE/1xx/2xx/ACK set up. Am I correct, or missing something (more than normal, that is)? All the best, Lawrence -- lwc@roke.co.uk: +44 1794 833666::: _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Mon May 14 10:07:58 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA12261 for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 10:07:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DDBB44368; Mon, 14 May 2001 10:08:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from imr2.ericy.com (imr2.ericy.com [12.34.240.68]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32E8C4434E for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 10:07:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mr7.exu.ericsson.se (mr7att.ericy.com [138.85.92.15]) by imr2.ericy.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4EE79824278; Mon, 14 May 2001 09:07:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from newman.exu.ericsson.se (newman.exu.ericsson.se [138.85.75.179]) by mr7.exu.ericsson.se (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4EE79c28771; Mon, 14 May 2001 09:07:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pc050163 (pc050163.exu.ericsson.se [138.85.50.163]) by newman.exu.ericsson.se (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA18848; Mon, 14 May 2001 09:07:09 -0500 (CDT) From: adam.roach@ericsson.com Reply-To: To: "'Baniel Uri-CUB001'" , "'Alan Johnston'" Cc: Subject: RE: [SIP] Comments about draft-ietf-sip-call-flows-03.txt Message-ID: <61D824C63B99D311975E00508B0CC985022517A6@eamrcnt717.exu.ericsson.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <35DBB8B7AC89D4118E98009027B1009B1F23FF@IL27EXM10.cig.mot.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 09:07:06 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think this has become more of a "sip-implementors" type of question. /a > -----Original Message----- > From: Baniel Uri-CUB001 [mailto:Uri.Baniel@motorola.com] > Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 7:55 AM > To: 'Alan Johnston' > Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com > Subject: RE: [SIP] Comments about draft-ietf-sip-call-flows-03.txt > > > Alan > > 1. Thanks for the quick response! > 2. Could you please take the 6 steps sequence I sent you and > populate it with correct values from the point is starts to get wrong. > 3. I will clarify my question again: Since truly the tags > shall be viewed as identifiers of a specific UA instance > (along with its URL), does a UA need to have/maintain A PAIR > OF TWO SEPARATE tags, one that he uses in From field and the > other for To field, or it may use the same ONE tag value??? > Are there different situations, which may affect it? (i.e. if > a UA has initiated a session and identified itself with a tag > in the From field (say 'fa'). Then later on throughout the > session it needs to respond to a request coming from a/the > other UA, shall it use than for the To field the same tag it > was using before for the For filed ('fa')? > > Uri > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan Johnston [mailto:alan.johnston@wcom.com] > Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 7:10 PM > To: Baniel Uri-CUB001 > Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com > Subject: Re: [SIP] Comments about draft-ietf-sip-call-flows-03.txt > > > Uri, > > A tag is associated with a URL, so when the To and From URLs > are swapped, so are the tags. Once the tags are added, they > are used throughout the session and become part of the call > leg that uniquely identifies the call. If a tag is dropped > in a request (as in your example, see below), > the call leg no longer matches, and the UAS will reply with a > 481 Call leg does not exist. > > Thanks, > Alan Johnston > WorldCom > sip:alan.johnston@siptest.wcom.com > > Baniel Uri-CUB001 wrote: > > > Alan > > > > According Bis section 11.4: > > > > "Regardless of whether the caller or callee is generating > the new request, the header fields in the request are set as > follows. For the desired call leg, the To header field is set > to the remote address, and the From header field is set to > the local address (both including any tags)" > > > > So does that explain why User B has reused the To-Tag as > From-Tag in its subsequent request? > > It does make sense, if that it is the explanation, since > User A knows User B by the To-Tag, so when it gets the same > tag in the From field it knows what instance of user B it came from. > > > > Is that so? > > > > What would you say about the following sequence, which has > been built based on the above assumption and based on the > call-flows draft (note the '???' at the last line) > > > > A -> B (Request1): FromTag='fa'; ToTag=null > > B -> A (200 response): FromTag='fa'; ToTag='tb' > > > > From now on, every request and response should contain the > two tags, fa and tb. > > > A -> B (subsequent request): FromTag='fa'; ToTag=null > > > > The response to this request would be a 481 since to tag > inserted by B is not present. > > > B -> A (subsequent request): FromTag='tb'; ToTag=null > > > > Likewise, this request would receive a 481 > > > A -> B (200 response): FromTag='tb'; ToTag='ta' > > A -> B (subsequent request): FromTag='fa or tb???'; ToTag=null > > > > These two are also not correct. > > > > > ================================================================= > > Uri.Baniel@motorola.com, > > Tel: (847) 632 4616; Fax: (847) 632 3963; > > "Learning that does not daily increase will daily decrease" E.w.c > > ================================================================= > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Baniel Uri-CUB001 [mailto:Uri_Baniel-CUB001@email.mot.com] > > > Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 4:20 PM > > > To: 'Alan Johnston' > > > Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com > > > Subject: RE: [SIP] Comments about draft-ietf-sip-call-flows-03.txt > > > > > > > > > Alan > > > > > > In draft-ietf-sip-call-flows-04.txt section 3.1.1 Successful > > > Simple SIP to SIP: > > > > > > User B uses the same tag value (tag=8321234356) for the 'To' > > > field (in its response) and then for the 'From' field > > > when it initiates the 'Bye' transaction. > > > > > > Bis02 section 6.26 says: "The UA SHOULD use different tags > > > for From and To header fields" > > > > > > Am I missing something here? > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Uri > > > > > > ================================================================= > > > Uri.Baniel@motorola.com, > > > Tel: (847) 632 4616; Fax: (847) 632 3963; > > > "Learning that does not daily increase will daily decrease" E.w.c > > > ================================================================= > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > > > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > > > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > > > To subscribe to it, send mail to > > > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" > in the body. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Mon May 14 11:03:00 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA14506 for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 11:02:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B590E44338; Mon, 14 May 2001 11:03:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@share.research.bell-labs.com Received: from crufty.research.bell-labs.com (crufty.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.49]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id E07F144337 for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 11:02:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([135.104.27.211]) by crufty; Mon May 14 10:58:06 EDT 2001 Received: by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) id 3044144380; Mon, 14 May 2001 10:47:31 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from hvssa01.nl.lucent.com (hvssa01.nl.lucent.com [135.85.68.2]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B22274437D for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 10:47:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by hvssa01.nl.lucent.com (8.8.8+Sun/EMS-1.5 sol2) id QAA22440; Mon, 14 May 2001 16:47:23 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from lucent.com by hvssa01.nl.lucent.com (8.8.8+Sun/EMS-1.5 sol2) id QAA22432; Mon, 14 May 2001 16:47:22 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <3AFFEF6C.98C9FAC9@lucent.com> From: Michel de Boer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [SIP] Early media Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:45:00 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Can someone tell me what the current status of early media handling in SIP is. draft-ietf-sip-183-00.txt has been expired for a while. Digging through the mailing list, the last reference I found was that the work from this draft was disbandoned and that a new early media approach would be worked out (see mail I added to this). The 2543bis is not very clear with respect to early media. Section 7.1 says that if a 1xx response contains a session description, a UAC SHOULD cease generating local ringback tone. It does not say what it should do instead. Does SDP in a 1xx mean that there is early media? Section 8.1 says that 1xx responses MAY contain session description and that the interpretation of the body depends on the status code. Where can I find this interpretation? It says that generally it informs the caller what kind of session the callee is likely to establish, subject to later modification in the 2xx response. If a UAS doesn't want to modify it, can it send a 2xx without SDP? In my opinion that should be fine, but 2543bis says 2xx responses to INVITE requests contain session descriptions. Regards, Michel Alan Johnston wrote: > > Robert, > > See my comments below. > > Thanks, > Alan Johnston > sip:alanjohnston@siptest.wcom.com > > "Fairlie-Cuninghame, Robert" wrote: > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > I recently noticed in the call flow documents that it states that early media sessions can be established by simply > > returning a 183 without SDP (giving the argument that the early media is unidirectional and thus only needs the > > caller's SDP). > > > > I don't remember this change being discussed on the list and I have not seen this behavior stated in any of the bis > > or old-183 drafts. Where did it come from and why? > > > > It was discussed at the interim meeting in Plano and also at Minneapolis. I did not agree with the conclusion, but I > have updated the call flows draft to reflect the consensus. The consensus was that early media is problematic, and as > a result the 183 Session Progress approach described in the expired 183 draft > (http://www.softarmor.com/sipwg/drafts/draft-ietf-sip-183-00.txt) will be abandoned in favor of a yet to be designed > early media approach that is friendly to forking, hold, etc. As a result, 2543bis will list the 183 code, but without > any requirements. Also, putting SDP in a 183 also becomes undefined by any SIP WG document. > > > > > Although strictly speaking, the SDP is not required I still think it should still be required in the 183 response > > because: > > > > a. it now forms a response-code specific behavior that is in contrast to the general early media handling for > > other provisional responses, eg SDP in 180. > > b. Does not allow symmetric RTP or any other type of NAT friendly processing to occur (because the source address > > is unknown). > > c. Is an unnecessary "saving". Why not send the SDP? Sending the reverse SDP doesn't hurt and is in line with > > processing for other early media sessions (eg 180 with SDP). Just because the both SDP are specified, does not > > mean that the UAS need accept any media in the forward direction. > > > > > I agree that the 183 with SDP is useful, however, others were insistent that it not be standardized. > > > > > > > What do other people think? I know we all hate early media but at least let's make the handling of what we have > > consistent across all response codes. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Robert. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Mon May 14 13:22:19 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA18739 for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 13:22:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8CD54433F; Mon, 14 May 2001 13:22:24 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mailhub1.shef.ac.uk (mailhub1.shef.ac.uk [143.167.1.9]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D71544337 for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 13:21:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from broadstone.shef.ac.uk ([143.167.23.251]) by mailhub1.shef.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.22 #3) id 14zM25-0001qI-00 for sip@lists.bell-labs.com; Mon, 14 May 2001 18:21:21 +0100 Received: from BROADSTONE/SpoolDir by broadstone.shef.ac.uk (Mercury 1.48); 14 May 01 18:21:22 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by BROADSTONE (Mercury 1.48); 14 May 01 18:21:11 +0100 Received: from c4mcr-eee (143.167.251.142) by broadstone.shef.ac.uk (Mercury 1.48); 14 May 01 18:21:01 +0100 From: elven To: "sip@lists.bell-labs.com" X-mailer: FoxMail 3.11 [eg] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <40443BC7FB9@broadstone.shef.ac.uk> Subject: [SIP] Does SIP have Call offer and Call Intrusion services? Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 18:29:47 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks a lot. Regards, elven elp00xg@shef.ac.uk _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Mon May 14 14:01:58 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id OAA20048 for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 14:01:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA1D24437A; Mon, 14 May 2001 14:02:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mail3.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.3.123]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 48BD64437A for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 14:01:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 157.54.9.104 by mail3.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Mon, 14 May 2001 09:20:10 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Received: from red-imc-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.9.107]) by inet-imc-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2883); Mon, 14 May 2001 09:22:00 -0700 Received: from win-imc-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.0.39]) by red-imc-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2883); Mon, 14 May 2001 09:22:00 -0700 Received: from win-msg-02.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.0.134]) by win-imc-01.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2966); Mon, 14 May 2001 09:21:50 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.4688.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [SIP] Early media Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [SIP] Early media Thread-Index: AcDchy9hVZic4oJGTIipKUSvvlMa1QACnQJA From: "Christian Huitema" To: "Michel de Boer" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 May 2001 16:21:50.0413 (UTC) FILETIME=[FAE627D0:01C0DC91] Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 09:21:50 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ietf.org id OAA20048 There was quite a discussion of this subject at the IETF. One opinion is that early media is in fact a form of session set-up, and that we should not have 25 different ways to set-up a session. That means, there should be no media at all until a 250/ACK exchange. Indeed, this could ease firewall traversal a lot. -- Christian Huitema > -----Original Message----- > From: Michel de Boer [mailto:michelboer@lucent.com] > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 7:45 AM > To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com > Subject: [SIP] Early media > > Hi, > > Can someone tell me what the current status of early media handling > in SIP is. draft-ietf-sip-183-00.txt has been expired for a while. > Digging through the mailing list, the last reference I found was that > the work from this draft was disbandoned and that a new early media > approach would be worked out (see mail I added to this). > > The 2543bis is not very clear with respect to early media. > Section 7.1 says that if a 1xx response contains a session > description, a UAC SHOULD cease generating local ringback > tone. It does not say what it should do instead. Does SDP > in a 1xx mean that there is early media? > > Section 8.1 says that 1xx responses MAY contain session > description and that the interpretation of the body depends > on the status code. Where can I find this interpretation? > > It says that generally it informs the caller what kind of > session the callee is likely to establish, subject to later > modification in the 2xx response. If a UAS doesn't want to > modify it, can it send a 2xx without SDP? In my opinion > that should be fine, but 2543bis says 2xx responses to INVITE > requests contain session descriptions. > > Regards, > Michel > > > > Alan Johnston wrote: > > > > Robert, > > > > See my comments below. > > > > Thanks, > > Alan Johnston > > sip:alanjohnston@siptest.wcom.com > > > > "Fairlie-Cuninghame, Robert" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I recently noticed in the call flow documents that it states that > early media sessions can be established by simply > > > returning a 183 without SDP (giving the argument that the early media > is unidirectional and thus only needs the > > > caller's SDP). > > > > > > I don't remember this change being discussed on the list and I have > not seen this behavior stated in any of the bis > > > or old-183 drafts. Where did it come from and why? > > > > > > > It was discussed at the interim meeting in Plano and also at > Minneapolis. I did not agree with the conclusion, but I > > have updated the call flows draft to reflect the consensus. The > consensus was that early media is problematic, and as > > a result the 183 Session Progress approach described in the expired 183 > draft > > (http://www.softarmor.com/sipwg/drafts/draft-ietf-sip-183-00.txt) will > be abandoned in favor of a yet to be designed > > early media approach that is friendly to forking, hold, etc. As a > result, 2543bis will list the 183 code, but without > > any requirements. Also, putting SDP in a 183 also becomes undefined by > any SIP WG document. > > > > > > > > Although strictly speaking, the SDP is not required I still think it > should still be required in the 183 response > > > because: > > > > > > a. it now forms a response-code specific behavior that is in > contrast to the general early media handling for > > > other provisional responses, eg SDP in 180. > > > b. Does not allow symmetric RTP or any other type of NAT friendly > processing to occur (because the source address > > > is unknown). > > > c. Is an unnecessary "saving". Why not send the SDP? Sending the > reverse SDP doesn't hurt and is in line with > > > processing for other early media sessions (eg 180 with SDP). Just > because the both SDP are specified, does not > > > mean that the UAS need accept any media in the forward direction. > > > > > > > > I agree that the 183 with SDP is useful, however, others were insistent > that it not be standardized. > > > > > > > > > > > What do other people think? I know we all hate early media but at > least let's make the handling of what we have > > > consistent across all response codes. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Robert. > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Mon May 14 15:55:59 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id PAA22936 for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 15:55:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C15D544362; Mon, 14 May 2001 15:56:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from broadsoft.com (broadsoft.com [161.58.239.68]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AD1744337 for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 15:55:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tate ([64.243.180.244]) by broadsoft.com (8.11.2) id f4EJtYN68386; Mon, 14 May 2001 15:55:34 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: From: "Brett Tate" To: "SIP (E-mail)" Message-ID: <005e01c0dcb0$2c8c7050$2b01a8c0@broadsoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Subject: [SIP] WWW-Authenticate in 2xx responses Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 15:57:57 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The bis currently reflects that the WWW-Authenticate header can only be in requests and 401 responses. Can the WWW-Authenticate header be passed within a 2xx response (updating nonce) to hopefully avoid some extra 401's during subsequent registrations/requests directed to the same registrar/UAS? The bis currently reflects that Proxy-Authenticate can only be in 401 and 407. Can the Proxy-Authenticate header be passed within a 2xx response (updating nonce) to hopefully avoid some extra 401/407's for subsequent requests/calls through an outbound proxies? Any comments or pointers to email threads where this has been previously discussed? _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Mon May 14 22:43:58 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id WAA01192 for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 22:43:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22A504438B; Mon, 14 May 2001 22:44:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 905B844382 for ; Mon, 14 May 2001 22:43:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id WAA15237; Mon, 14 May 2001 22:46:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 14 May 2001 22:43:07 -0400 Message-ID: <9BF66EBF6BEFD942915B4D4D45C051F3180399@DYN-TX-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com> From: Steve Donovan To: "'brett@broadsoft.com'" , "'SIPWG Mailing List (E-mail)'" Subject: RE: [SIP] draft-ietf-sip-session-timer-04.txt Last Call MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 22:43:04 -0400 > -----Original Message----- > From: Brett Tate [mailto:brett@broadsoft.com] > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 7:31 PM > To: 'SIPWG Mailing List (E-mail)' > Subject: RE: [SIP] draft-ietf-sip-session-timer-04.txt Last Call > > > General comment/question: > > Why can Session-Expires and Require "timer" > be in negative re-INVITE responses since it > is not guaranteed that re-INVITE has gotten > to the far end? Let me know if I missed the > sentence that would ensure that a proxy won't > generate such a response as means to extend > the session timer. Was it added as a means > for a proxy to help produce a BYE quicker? I don't understand the concern. This does not force a BYE to happen faster. It might cause a re-INVITE to happen quicker, which is why we are adding wording about not accepting small session-timer values. > > Section 4 last paragraph: > The Session-Expires immediate and Require > "timer" looks like a kludge for UA's > that don't add/use tags. It seems strange > that they are current enough to implement > timer draft but not current enough to add > tags to the To and From. Note: the proxy > should not add the Session-Expires immediate > and Require "timer" for the UA since the > proxy doesn't know the destination UA's > reason for the reject. Please make being > able to distinguish a re-INVITE from INVITE > a requirement for implementing the draft. We can't mandate that all UAs support tags. We have added wording that any UA implementing the session timer draft must support From and To tags. > > > > General comment/question: > > Please mention in the draft that > the UAS receiving a re-INVITE SHOULD NOT > revive a dead call-leg unless it knows that > the associated media session is still > active/allocated for that call-leg. > > Reasons: > 1) Helps ensure that the reviver is one > that pays for call if the revived party > actually hung up previously. > > 2) Helps ensure that the reviver only pays > for call if reviver knows it will be > paying for call. > > 3) Only re-alerts the receiver when sender > really desires such a thing. > > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 15 01:43:59 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id BAA08021 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 01:43:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEFA24433C; Tue, 15 May 2001 01:44:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56C9844337 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 01:43:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id BAA16035; Tue, 15 May 2001 01:46:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 15 May 2001 01:43:01 -0400 Message-ID: From: Jonathan Rosenberg To: "'brett@broadsoft.com'" , "SIP (E-mail)" Subject: RE: [SIP] WWW-Authenticate in 2xx responses MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 01:43:00 -0400 > -----Original Message----- > From: Brett Tate [mailto:brett@broadsoft.com] > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 3:58 PM > To: SIP (E-mail) > Subject: [SIP] WWW-Authenticate in 2xx responses > > > The bis currently reflects that the WWW-Authenticate > header can only be in requests and 401 responses. > Can the WWW-Authenticate header be passed within a > 2xx response (updating nonce) to hopefully avoid > some extra 401's during subsequent > registrations/requests directed to the same > registrar/UAS? No. The way to avoid the extra 401s is to cache the credentials, and resubmit them for any subsequent requests to the same URI. In other words, you don't wait for a 401 to insert an Authorization header. Each request for the same URI contains any Authorization header sent previously to that same URI. The nonce may have become stale, in which case the request will generate a 401 which effectively refreshes the nonce. > > The bis currently reflects that Proxy-Authenticate > can only be in 401 and 407. Can the Proxy-Authenticate > header be passed within a 2xx response (updating nonce) > to hopefully avoid some extra 401/407's for subsequent > requests/calls through an outbound proxies? Same as above. -Jonathan R. --- Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 72 Eagle Rock Ave. Chief Scientist First Floor dynamicsoft East Hanover, NJ 07936 jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 http://www.dynamicsoft.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 15 03:19:58 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id DAA18314 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 03:19:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FB624436A; Tue, 15 May 2001 03:20:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97BEC44337 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 03:19:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id DAA16302; Tue, 15 May 2001 03:23:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 15 May 2001 03:19:24 -0400 Message-ID: From: Jonathan Rosenberg To: "'Bryan Byerly'" , Igor Slepchin Cc: patrick.mourot@online.fr, sip@lists.bell-labs.com, stlevy@cisco.com Subject: RE: [Sip-implementors] Re: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of dat e MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 03:19:22 -0400 Well, I've got a bunch of issues with this draft. So, lets take it from the top. Firstly, we have a process problem. There are now many implementations of this extension, many of them under the apparent belief that this is going to be an IETF standard. Indeed, there is an I-D, which is being actively maintained. However, it is not a work item of sipping or sip. To my knowledge, there has not been consensus to move forward with CC-Diversion on the standards track. According to the notes from IETF-49, there was only "medium interest", for whatever thats worth. It doesn't have the draft-ietf-sip-* name. Unfortunately, many other drafts don't have that title, and yet they are on the standards track. And thats the problem. Just because something is submitted to IETF as an I-D, and maintained, does not mean it is on the standards track, either through the working group, or individually (and I'll note that very few individual drafts get approved on the standards track). In fact, a very small fraction of the drafts submitted ever see standards track. Unfortunately, the SIP group has not done a good job of helping the community distinguish between documents on the standards track, and those not on the standards track. The right way to do this is that all standards track documents are draft-ietf-sip-*. If something new comes up that people want to make standard, we get it on the charter, and then rev the doc with a draft-ietf-sip-* name. Before that happens, the document is NOT ON THE STANDARDS TRACK. This process problem is not the fault of this draft, but the draft appears to have brought it forward. My second problem is the subtle implications this has with backwards compatibility and interoperability with ISDN/ISUP systems, particularly voicemail systems. The Diversion header is clearly just the SIP reincarnation of the existing redirecting number from ISDN and ISUP. That, of course, facilitates interoperability with ISDN/ISUP. However, it means that gateways may not properly set the redirecting number in ISUP/ISDN in the absence of the Diversion header. Similarly, SIP-enabled systems that look for the Diversion header to define services may not function properly in the absence of Diversion. As a result of that, Diversion basically becomes mandatory for these to work. Unfortunately, this appears to have occurred in some implementations and deployments already. Since proxies are the ones that insert Diversion, this means that Diversion would require a Proxy-Require header to function. In fact, its far more insidious than that. A UAC would need to insert a Proxy-Require in each and every request, not because the UAC wants a service, but because the call might possibly, someday, hit a downstream system which uses Diversion. Extensions that need Proxy-Require to function are effectively non-backwards compatible extensions. See draft-ietf-sip-guidelines on why its very, very bad. May as well call them another protocol, since they are not compatible with baseline SIP. Now, this problem is fixable. As Allison has mentioned during IETF 50, all extensions henceforth MUST describe how backwards compatibility operates. Therefore, the draft MUST describe how gateways, voicemail servers, and anything else that looks at Diversion, would work in its absence. However, the issue with Proxy-Require is related to an architectural assumption which I strongly disagree with. The underlying architectural assumption is that applications on behalf of user A will execute on some system far downstream from user A. These applications depend on data known to the proxy that serves A, and therefore this data must be passed to the application. The Diversion header exists to propagate this information. This is effectively a centralized service architecture. In a more distributed system, if I want an application to run on behalf of user A, I run it at the server which serves user A. Let me be concrete, with an example. Lets take the interesting scenario where user X calls boss B. Boss B is not available, so the call gets forwarded to the secretary S. The secretary is S also not available, so the call is forwarded to voicemail. An application on the voicemail server, executing on behalf of boss B and secretary S, determines that the the voicemail for the boss, not the secretary, should be dropped. Now, if I assume that this application exists in the voicemail server, downstream from the caller, then of course some kind of information on this diversion must be passed to the server. However, no new extension is needed if a more distributed approach is taken. When the call reaches the proxy for B, the application for B resides there. It proxies the call to the proxy for S, and sets the Request-Disposition header to redirect. The proxy for S runs an application on behalf of the secretary. This application forwards to voicemail if the secretary is unavailable. Because of the Request-Disposition, the call is redirected to voicemail rather than being proxied. This moves control for the call back to the boss, B. The bosses application decides instead to forward the call to the boss's voicemail, and so proxies the call to a URI corresponding to the voicemail drop for the boss. This works just fine, and requires no new extensions. Another spin on this is to view it as a feature interaction problem. The boss wants to forward to his secretary if he is there, otherwise to his own voicemail if the secretary is not available. The secretary wants to forward the call to his voicemail if he's not available. These two features are contradictory, and thus interact with each other. Since the secretary and boss are served by (potentially) separate proxies, we have a classic MUMC (multiple-user, multiple-component) interaction. The Diversion approach is to assume that we can reconcile all these interactions by somehow having "policy" at the endpoint server. This policy knows what the right reconciliation is for all potential interactions, assuming it has all the data it needs. To obtain this data (here, the set of diversions), the data is passed from the proxies along the path to the application. My concern is this "magical" assumption that policy on the server will know the right thing to do in order to reconcile all feature interactions. Rather than take this approach, a more robust feature interaction approach is to let the feature for the boss, and the feature for the secretary, run independently. The feature for the boss runs on the boss's proxy (or application server). The feature for the secretary runs on the secretary's proxy (or application server). The two applications know nothing about each other, and run independently. The bosses application runs first. It "wins" the feature interaction if it maintains control of the call. The secretary's application "wins" if it keeps control of the call after the boss forwards it. As a result, the reconciliation between the features is determined by the ordering of the invocation of these two, and the flow of control between them. This is the approach proposed by modern feature interaction systems, such as Distributed Feature Composition (DFC) and ECLIPSE, and the recent I-D on SERL [draft-steenfeldt-sip-serl-fwr-00.txt]. All of these are based on the well-known "cascaded" approach to feature interaction in the IN. Its also the same as the approach I proposed above using Request-Disposition. There are many advantages to this approach. It does not require passing additional information to third party components to perform feature interaction reconciliation. As a result, there are no security risks (since no information is divulged), as there are with the Diversion approach. Managing the feature interactions is easy. As new users are added, we don't need to program a single system with the interactions between that user's features, and the features of existing users, as we do in the Diversion approach. We do not need an extension, since no new information is being passed between applications. The diversion approach requires an extension. This distributed approach is also the one advocated by rfc3087, and by draft-rosenberg-sip-app-components. RFC3087 talked about access to SIP voicemail features, using the request URI as a service identifier. So, my point here is that Diversion is needed only under a very specific architectural model. This model has well known feature interaction complications, which are resolved readily in a more distributed model. Furthermore, the distributed approach is more secure and requires no extension. Onto the next issue. I believe the point was made that Diversion simplifies PSTN interoperability. If a request has been diverted in the PSTN, we can carry the PSTN diversion information in SIP in the Diversion headers. This way, we can design SIP enabled systems that provide servers to PSTN endpoints, without loss of information. However, we've talked about this issue for a long time. The SIP group has already decided that instead of defining each ISUP/ISDN header as a SIP header, we will encapsulate these PSTN messages as bodies, and use SIP-T. That means we can still build SIP enabled systems that provide services to PSTN users, without loss of information, yet we can avoid replicating each ISUP header into SIP. OK, now to some nitty gritty issues I have with Diversion. It says that the proxies only insert the Diversion header when the call is diverted, which is defined as: diversion: A change to the ultimate destination endpoint of a request. A change in the Request-URI of a request that was not caused by a routing decision. This is also sometimes called a deflection or redirection. A diversion can occur when the "user" portion of the Request-URI is changed for a reason other than expansion or translation. Now, I would be really impressed if someone can tell me how to program a proxy to know the difference between a routing decision that changes the ultimate destination, and one that does not. In SIP, we make no distinction between the two. So, effectively, every single proxy or redirect operation will require the insertion of this Diversion header. This means another set of stacked headers, of exactly the same length as the Via headers. That significant overhead, and its additional processing. Furthermore, every proxy would need to do it for each and every call, since they don't know whether the ultimate recipient will need to make use of Diversion to provide some services. The final concern I have is a "slippery slope" argument. Effectively, Diversion is about encapsulating a routing decision made at point A, and sending it to a downstream device. Right now, Diversion handles routing decisions such as call-forward-no-answer, call-forward-busy, unconditional, and so on. However, in practice, the logic for a call diversion can be arbitrarily complex. What if its some complex CPL script that caused the diversion? How do I represent that kind of logic? Where do we draw the line? The problem is avoided by not trying to transfer this kind of information in the first place. If an application requires routing information on proxy A to function, then the application runs at A. -Jonathan R. --- Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 72 Eagle Rock Ave. Chief Scientist First Floor dynamicsoft East Hanover, NJ 07936 jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 http://www.dynamicsoft.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Bryan Byerly [mailto:byerly@cisco.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 5:33 PM > To: Igor Slepchin > Cc: patrick.mourot@online.fr; sip@lists.bell-labs.com; > sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu; stlevy@cisco.com; byerly@cisco.com > Subject: [Sip-implementors] Re: [SIP] Draft about diversion > out of date > > > Hi Igor, > > I've attached an additional example of a scenario that you've > requested. > > Please see other responses inline. > > thanks for your help, > Bryan > > Igor Slepchin wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Bryan Byerly [mailto:byerly@cisco.com] > > > > > > As I presented at the December 2000 IETF, the I-D is > > > motivated by several > > > PSTN/SIP internetworking scenarios including: > > > > I'd like to see what internetworking scenarios don't work > without it. > > I've attached one such example. > > > > Multiple diversions. > > > > Hmm, these are not really supported by PSTN. Just as your > draft says, the > > only information available in ISDN parameters are the > called party and the > > redirecting number. Nowhere does PSTN remember all the > previous redirections > > like suggested by the draft. > > Actually, as the Diversion I-D points out, most ISUP and ISDN > variants support > up to 2 redirecting numbers. Could you point out the part of > the Diversion > I-D that led you to believe there could be only one? We'd > need to clarify that > section. > > > > Diverting a call to an E.164 service. > > > > What services is Diversion header required for? There are > lots of obscure > > parameters in PSTN signaling; replicating all of them in > SIP does not sound > > like a very good idea and is not necessary for internetworking. > > The Diversion I-D is focused on answering 2 questions for the > (ultimately) > called user agent: > From whom was the call diverted? > Why was the call diverted? > > Implementations of services such as voicemail and night > service frequently > require this information. > > > > Configuration issues (moving policy configuration to edges (UAs)) > > > > > > An ultimately called UAS can use the Diversion headers to > > > implement a local > > > policy for his particular service. For example, to answer > > > the question: > > > Into which voice mailbox should a message be placed? It's > > > important to > > > understand that this is a policy decision; and as such should be > > > configurable at the ultimate edge of the voice network (i.e. > > > move the smarts > > > to the edges). The examples in section 9 do cover some of > > > these issues. > > > > I find examples in section 9 rather farfetched. No company > is ever going to > > have SIP addresses that look like sip:pizza@p1.isp.com > (when was the last > > time you saw a real company with an email account at aol.com?) > > Realistically, the night service calls you mentioned will > be redirected to > > something like pizza@nightservice.com or roses@nightservice.com. > > The example shows translation of a generic keyword (pizza) > into a specific URL > as determined by the policy of the "carrier". Today's web brower > "carriers" already exhibit this type of behavior today. Try > typing "pizza" in > your web browser... I wouldn't be surprised if the topmost > hits weren't > somehow compensating the web browser "carrier". I'd imagine > that tomorrow's > VoIP carriers could base some business models off of this idea. > > Again, please also see the attached example below. Perhaps > it will seem more > realistic. > > The Diversion header is merely providing supplementary > information that cannot > always be found in any other parts of the SIP PDU. > Implementors of some > services (including voicemail and nightservice) need a consistent > (standardized) mechanism to retrieve this supplementary > information so that > they can apply policy decisions to it to affect their service > logic. The > Diversion header provides such a mechanism and does so > without creating a > configuration burden on system administrators of intermediate > gateway/routing > nodes. > > thanks again for your help, > Bryan > > Bryan J. Byerly > byerly@cisco.com > > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 15 06:45:00 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id GAA19976 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 06:45:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DC8644360; Tue, 15 May 2001 06:45:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from ertpg15e1.nortelnetworks.com (ertpg15e1.nortelnetworks.com [47.234.0.36]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 7156544337 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 06:44:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from qnsgs000.nortel.com by ertpg15e1.nortelnetworks.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id GAA19057; Tue, 15 May 2001 06:44:35 -0400 Received: from znsgd00t.europe.nortel.com by qnsgs000.nortel.com; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:42:16 +0100 Received: by znsgd00t.europe.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 15 May 2001 11:42:10 +0100 Message-ID: <757032945337D2118E6B0000F8080CC10A468CBC@zwcwd002.europe.nortel.com> From: "Chris Hogg" To: "'Michel de Boer'" , sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] Early media MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C0DD2B.B1B2EF40" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 11:42:10 +0100 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0DD2B.B1B2EF40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Michel, While I can't help you with the status of the "early media" draft I can have a go at answering a number of your other questions. I have been looking at early media within SIP networks for some time now and recently sent an email to the list (see attached email below). The email describes a method for achieving "early media" using bis02 and the "manyfolks" QoS draft. It discusses most of the issues you have raised including the issue of whether or not 183 Session progress responses and 180 Ringing responses should or should not contain SDP (and whether any meaning should be attached to this). With respect to the issue of whether or not 2xx responses should contain SDP even if the UAS does not want to modify the session it is my understanding of 2543bis02 that SDP is always included in the 2xx response - I suppose that if the UAS does not want to modify the session (as already agreed from SDP in provisional responses) then it just re-sends the same SDP it sent in its' last provisional response. Indeed there are actually a number of situations whereby the UAS would wish to change the SDP in a 2xx response even if all resources had already been negotiated and reserved as a result of SDP within the INVITE and 1xx responses. An example of this situation is when the called party answers a call. The called party UAS sends a 200 final response to the callers' UAC. This 200 response must be able to alter the media path between caller and callee from "recv only behaviour" (i.e. callee UAS not listening - receiving port set to zero) to "send and recv behaviour" (i.e. callee UAS is listening - receiving port no set to non-zero) (NOTE: At all times the connection/media path is always "sendrecv" - it's just that the callees' UAS can choose not to listen to incoming media hence implying "recv only" behaviour). Such behaviour is required in order to prevent the caller from being able to talk to the callee during call set up (during which time the call is not billed). Any comments on the proposed "early media" call flow would be welcome. Cheers Chris Chris Hogg Strategic Product Planning Nortel Networks (UK) Tel: +44 (0)1628-431720 From: Hogg, Chris [MAIFP:EP21:EXCH] Sent: 04 May 2001 09:49 To: 'sip@lists.bell-labs.com' Subject: [SIP] Early Media using the manyfolks draft Hi everyone, I'd like to present the following for comment by the list: Below is a proposal for handling some aspects of Early Media using both the RFC2543bis-02 and the manyfolks draft for resource reservation. This proposal could be applied in systems that will always use the manyfolks extension to enable resource reservation, QoS, and security. An example application would be the IMS in a 3GPP mobile network. In this example the need for Early Media arises from interworking with the PSTN; specifically for: - delivery of call progress tones and - to prevent clipping of voice on answer. My question is: Is this interpretation of how the manyfolks draft can be used in combination with the RFC2543bis-02 acceptable? Early Media & Manyfolks: - "Manyfolks" discusses how network QoS and security establishment can be made a precondition to sessions initiated by SIP, and described by SDP. - It allows SDP to be sent inside 1xx provisional responses (other than 100) and PRACKs. - Note that from a standards point of view the SDP is not to be used to negotiate media and codecs. The sender of an SDP is required to accept any of the media/codecs it included. - However, if a system level requirement is imposed that a single media type and codec is to be used in both send and receive directions, negotiation to a single choice of media and codec is effectively what happens. Call flow: In this call flow the UAS is acting as the signalling gateway to the PSTN. The details of what is included in the SDP body is omitted here for simplicity, but it is assumed that the necessary parameters are included to ensure that establishment of QoS is mandatory in both directions as a precondition of the call. UAC UAS PSTN --- --- ---- | 1)INVITE[SDP] | ------> | 2)183[SDP] | <-------- | 3)PRACK [SDP] | ------> | 4)200 OK | <-------- | | ======> RESOURCE <===== | 5) RESERVATION | | 6)COMET[SDP]| <-------- | 7)200 OK(COMET) | -------> | | 8)COMET[SDP] | -------> | 9)200 OK(COMET) | 10)IAM <-------- | -------> | 11) 1-WAY MEDIA | 12)BACKWARDS VOICE <====================== |<==================== | | 13)ACM | <-------- 14)183[SDP] | <-------- | 15)PRACK | -------> | | 16)ANM | <-------- 18)200 OK(INVITE) | 17) 2-WAY VOICE <-------- |<====================> | 19) 2-WAY MEDIA | <======================>| | 20)ACK | -------> | [Call now established. Rest of the call flow omitted] SIP RFC2543bis02 draft offers a number of options for event #14. The UAS can send any of the following to the UAC at this stage: 1. 180 with SDP, port=0 means called party alerting, play local ringing 2. 180 with SDP, port>0 means called party alerting, play media 3. 183 with SDP, port=0 means address complete, play local ringing 4. 183 with SDP, port>0 means address complete, play media 5. 180 without SDP means called party alerting, continue existing behaviour 6. 183 without SDP means address complete, continue existing behaviour (In all cases the SDP can only include media agreed earlier by the UAC and UAS.) These options might be used for the following reasons in the example call flow: - 180 indicates that the ACM received included indication that the called subscriber was free (and therefore alerting) - 183 indicates that the ACM received did not indicate the status of the callee - Including SDP with port=0 indicates to the UAS to cease playing any media and synthesise ringing - Including SDP with port>0 indicates to the UAS to cease any local ringing and play any arriving media - Not including an SDP means the UAS should continue its current behaviour regarding ringing or playing media In the call flow above, the SDP in event #14 has a non-zero port number. This has the effect of indicating to the UAC that it should continue to play early media. Alternatively if we assume that in event #2 an SDP was included in the 183 with port>0, the absence of SDP in #14 would have had the same effect; i.e. that any early media arriving at the UAC would have continued to be been played. In this example call flow the caller at the UAC would have listened to early media, carrying the sound of far end ringing from the PSTN between event #13 and #16/17. Additional Issues arising: 1. The use of setting port numbers in SDP to 0 in order to indicate media flow should cease is an IP specific solution and goes against the grain of SIP being independent of the bearer protocol in use. This is a much wider protocol issue. Has any work been done on a generic method for indicating media should stop being played? 2. In flow #14 above, the port number in the SDP may be set to 0 to indicate to the UAC to stop playing any early media that it receives. However, bis02 indicates that any SDP sent from a node refers to the media which that node can receive. Is it acceptable to use the backwards SDP (from UAS to UAC) to indicate to the UAC to stop playing any early media that it is receiving or is there a need for a new indication? Any comments would be most welcome. Many thanks Chris Hogg Strategic Product Planning Nortel Networks Tel: +44 (0)1628-43-1720 email: chogg@nortelnetworks.com -----Original Message----- From: Michel de Boer [mailto:michelboer@lucent.com] Sent: 14 May 2001 15:45 To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: [SIP] Early media Hi, Can someone tell me what the current status of early media handling in SIP is. draft-ietf-sip-183-00.txt has been expired for a while. Digging through the mailing list, the last reference I found was that the work from this draft was disbandoned and that a new early media approach would be worked out (see mail I added to this). The 2543bis is not very clear with respect to early media. Section 7.1 says that if a 1xx response contains a session description, a UAC SHOULD cease generating local ringback tone. It does not say what it should do instead. Does SDP in a 1xx mean that there is early media? Section 8.1 says that 1xx responses MAY contain session description and that the interpretation of the body depends on the status code. Where can I find this interpretation? It says that generally it informs the caller what kind of session the callee is likely to establish, subject to later modification in the 2xx response. If a UAS doesn't want to modify it, can it send a 2xx without SDP? In my opinion that should be fine, but 2543bis says 2xx responses to INVITE requests contain session descriptions. Regards, Michel Alan Johnston wrote: > > Robert, > > See my comments below. > > Thanks, > Alan Johnston > sip:alanjohnston@siptest.wcom.com > > "Fairlie-Cuninghame, Robert" wrote: > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > I recently noticed in the call flow documents that it states that early media sessions can be established by simply > > returning a 183 without SDP (giving the argument that the early media is unidirectional and thus only needs the > > caller's SDP). > > > > I don't remember this change being discussed on the list and I have not seen this behavior stated in any of the bis > > or old-183 drafts. Where did it come from and why? > > > > It was discussed at the interim meeting in Plano and also at Minneapolis. I did not agree with the conclusion, but I > have updated the call flows draft to reflect the consensus. The consensus was that early media is problematic, and as > a result the 183 Session Progress approach described in the expired 183 draft > (http://www.softarmor.com/sipwg/drafts/draft-ietf-sip-183-00.txt) will be abandoned in favor of a yet to be designed > early media approach that is friendly to forking, hold, etc. As a result, 2543bis will list the 183 code, but without > any requirements. Also, putting SDP in a 183 also becomes undefined by any SIP WG document. > > > > > Although strictly speaking, the SDP is not required I still think it should still be required in the 183 response > > because: > > > > a. it now forms a response-code specific behavior that is in contrast to the general early media handling for > > other provisional responses, eg SDP in 180. > > b. Does not allow symmetric RTP or any other type of NAT friendly processing to occur (because the source address > > is unknown). > > c. Is an unnecessary "saving". Why not send the SDP? Sending the reverse SDP doesn't hurt and is in line with > > processing for other early media sessions (eg 180 with SDP). Just because the both SDP are specified, does not > > mean that the UAS need accept any media in the forward direction. > > > > > I agree that the 183 with SDP is useful, however, others were insistent that it not be standardized. > > > > > > > What do other people think? I know we all hate early media but at least let's make the handling of what we have > > consistent across all response codes. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Robert. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0DD2B.B1B2EF40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [SIP] Early media

Hi Michel,

While I can't help you with the status of the = "early media" draft I can have a go at answering a number of = your other questions. I have been looking at early media within SIP = networks for some time now and recently sent an email to the list (see = attached email below).  The email describes a method for achieving = "early media" using bis02 and the "manyfolks" QoS = draft.  It discusses most of the issues you have raised including = the issue of whether or not 183 Session progress responses and 180 = Ringing responses should or should not contain SDP (and whether any = meaning should be attached to this). 

With respect to the issue of whether or not 2xx = responses should contain SDP even if the UAS does not want to modify = the session it is my understanding of 2543bis02 that SDP is always = included in the 2xx response - I suppose that if the UAS does not want = to modify the session (as already agreed from SDP in provisional = responses) then it just re-sends the same SDP it sent in its' last = provisional response.        Indeed there = are actually a number of situations whereby the UAS would wish to = change the SDP in a 2xx response even if all resources had already been = negotiated and reserved as a result of SDP within the INVITE and 1xx = responses.  An example of this situation is when the called party = answers a call. The called party UAS sends a 200 final response to the = callers' UAC.  This 200 response must be able to alter the media = path between caller and callee from "recv only behaviour" = (i.e. callee UAS not listening - receiving port set to zero) to = "send and recv behaviour" (i.e. callee UAS is listening - = receiving port no set to non-zero) (NOTE: At all times the = connection/media path is always "sendrecv" - it's just that = the callees' UAS can choose not to listen to incoming media hence = implying "recv only" behaviour).  Such behaviour is = required in order to prevent the caller from being able to talk to the = callee during call set up (during which time the call is not = billed).

Any comments on the proposed "early media" = call flow would be welcome.

Cheers
Chris

Chris Hogg
Strategic Product Planning
Nortel Networks (UK)
Tel: +44 (0)1628-431720

From:   Hogg, Chris = [MAIFP:EP21:EXCH]
Sent:   04 May 2001 09:49
To:     = 'sip@lists.bell-labs.com'
Subject:        = [SIP] Early Media using the manyfolks draft



Hi everyone,

I'd like to present the following for comment by the = list:

Below is a proposal for handling some aspects of = Early Media using both the RFC2543bis-02 and the manyfolks draft for = resource reservation. This proposal could be applied in systems that = will always use the manyfolks extension to enable resource reservation, = QoS, and security. An example application would be the IMS in a 3GPP = mobile network. In this example the need for Early Media arises from = interworking with the PSTN; specifically for:

- delivery of call progress tones and
- to prevent clipping of voice on answer.

My question is: Is this interpretation of how the = manyfolks draft can be used in combination with the RFC2543bis-02 = acceptable?

Early Media & Manyfolks:

- "Manyfolks" discusses how network QoS and = security establishment can be made a precondition to sessions initiated = by SIP, and described by SDP.

- It allows SDP to be sent inside 1xx provisional = responses (other than 100) and PRACKs.
- Note that from a standards point of view the SDP = is not to be used to negotiate media and codecs. The sender of an SDP = is required to accept any of the media/codecs it included.

- However, if a system level requirement is imposed = that a single media type and codec is to be used in both send and = receive directions, negotiation to a single choice of media and codec = is effectively what happens.

Call flow:

In this call flow the UAS is acting as the signalling = gateway to the PSTN. The details of what is included in the SDP body is = omitted here for simplicity, but it is assumed that the necessary = parameters are included to ensure that establishment of QoS is = mandatory in both directions as a precondition of the call.


UAC          =           = UAS           &nb= sp;     PSTN
---          =           = ---           &nb= sp;     ----
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp; |
1)INVITE[SDP]        &n= bsp;  |
------>         = ;        |
          &nb= sp;  2)183[SDP] |
          &nb= sp;   <-------- |
3)PRACK = [SDP]           | =
------>         = ;        |
          &nb= sp;   4)200 OK  |
          &nb= sp;   <-------- |
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp; |
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> RESOURCE <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D = |
    5) = RESERVATION      |
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp; |
          &nb= sp; 6)COMET[SDP]|
          &nb= sp;   <-------- |
7)200 = OK(COMET)         |
------->        &nbs= p;       |
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp; |
8)COMET[SDP]        &nb= sp;   |
------->        &nbs= p;       |
        9)200 = OK(COMET) | 10)IAM
          &nb= sp;   <-------- | ------->
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp; |
  11) 1-WAY = MEDIA       | 12)BACKWARDS VOICE
<=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D = |<=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp; |
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp; = |            = ;   13)ACM
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp; = |            = ; <--------
          &nb= sp; 14)183[SDP] |
          &nb= sp;   <-------- |
15)PRACK         &= nbsp;      |
------->        &nbs= p;       |
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp; = |            = ;    16)ANM
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp; = |            = ; <--------
      18)200 OK(INVITE) = |   17) 2-WAY VOICE
          &nb= sp;   <-------- = |<=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> =
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp; |
  19) 2-WAY = MEDIA       |
<=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D>|
          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp; |
20)ACK         &nb= sp;        |
------->        &nbs= p;       |

[Call now established. Rest of the call flow omitted] =


SIP RFC2543bis02 draft offers a number of options for = event #14. The UAS can send any of the following to the UAC at this = stage:

1. 180 with SDP, port=3D0 means called party = alerting, play local ringing
2. 180 with SDP, port>0 means called party = alerting, play media
3. 183 with SDP, port=3D0 means address complete, = play local ringing
4. 183 with SDP, port>0 means address complete, = play media
5. 180 without SDP means called party alerting, = continue existing behaviour
6. 183 without SDP means address complete, continue = existing behaviour
(In all cases the SDP can only include media agreed = earlier by the UAC and UAS.)

These options might be used for the following reasons = in the example call flow:
- 180 indicates that the ACM received included = indication that the called subscriber was free (and therefore alerting) =
- 183 indicates that the ACM received did not = indicate the status of the callee
- Including SDP with port=3D0 indicates to the UAS = to cease playing any media and synthesise ringing
- Including SDP with port>0 indicates to the UAS = to cease any local ringing and play any arriving media
- Not including an SDP means the UAS should continue = its current behaviour regarding ringing or playing media

In the call flow above, the SDP in event #14 has a = non-zero port number. This has the effect of indicating to the UAC that = it should continue to play early media. Alternatively if we assume that = in event #2 an SDP was included in the 183 with port>0, the absence = of SDP in #14 would have had the same effect; i.e. that any early media = arriving at the UAC would have continued to be been played.

In this example call flow the caller at the UAC would = have listened to early media, carrying the sound of far end ringing = from the PSTN between event #13 and #16/17.

Additional Issues arising:

1. The use of setting port numbers in SDP to 0 in = order to indicate media flow should cease is an IP specific solution = and goes against the grain of SIP being independent of the bearer = protocol in use. This is a much wider protocol issue.  Has any = work been done on a generic method for indicating media should stop = being played?

2. In flow #14 above, the port number in the SDP may = be set to 0 to indicate to the UAC to stop playing any early media that = it receives.  However, bis02 indicates that any SDP sent from a = node refers to the media which that node can receive.  Is it = acceptable to use the backwards SDP (from UAS to UAC) to indicate to = the UAC to stop playing any early media that it is receiving or is = there a need for a new indication?

Any comments would be most welcome.

Many thanks

Chris Hogg
Strategic Product Planning
Nortel Networks
Tel: +44 (0)1628-43-1720
email: chogg@nortelnetworks.com




-----Original Message-----
From: Michel de Boer [mailto:michelboer@lucent.com]<= /FONT>
Sent: 14 May 2001 15:45
To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com
Subject: [SIP] Early media


Hi,

Can someone tell me what the current status of early = media handling
in SIP is. draft-ietf-sip-183-00.txt has been = expired for a while.
Digging through the mailing list, the last reference = I found was that
the work from this draft was disbandoned and that a = new early media
approach would be worked out (see mail I added to = this).

The 2543bis is not very clear with respect to early = media.
Section 7.1 says that if a 1xx response contains a = session
description, a UAC SHOULD cease generating local = ringback
tone. It does not say what it should do instead. = Does SDP
in a 1xx mean that there is early media?

Section 8.1 says that 1xx responses MAY contain = session
description and that the interpretation of the body = depends
on the status code. Where can I find this = interpretation?

It says that generally it informs the caller what = kind of
session the callee is likely to establish, subject = to later
modification in the 2xx response. If a UAS doesn't = want to
modify it, can it send a 2xx without SDP? In my = opinion
that should be fine, but 2543bis says 2xx responses = to INVITE
requests contain session descriptions.

Regards,
Michel



Alan Johnston wrote:
>
> Robert,
>
> See my comments below.
>
> Thanks,
> Alan Johnston
> sip:alanjohnston@siptest.wcom.com
>
> "Fairlie-Cuninghame, Robert" = wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I recently noticed in the call flow = documents that it states that early media sessions can be established = by simply
> > returning a 183 without SDP (giving the = argument that the early media is unidirectional and thus only needs = the
> > caller's SDP).
> >
> > I don't remember this change being = discussed on the list and I have not seen this behavior stated in any = of the bis
> > or old-183 drafts. Where did it come = from  and why?
> >
>
> It was discussed at the interim meeting in = Plano and also at Minneapolis.  I did not agree with the = conclusion, but I
> have updated the call flows draft to reflect = the consensus.  The consensus was that early media is problematic, = and as

> a result the 183 Session Progress approach = described in the expired 183 draft
> (http://www.softarmor.com/sipwg/drafts/draft-ietf-sip-1= 83-00.txt) will be abandoned in favor of a yet to be = designed
> early media approach that is friendly to = forking, hold, etc.  As a result, 2543bis will list the 183 code, = but without

> any requirements.  Also, putting SDP in a = 183 also becomes undefined by any SIP WG document.
>
> >
> > Although strictly speaking, the SDP is not = required I still think it should still be required in the 183 = response
> > because:
> >
> >   a. it  now forms a = response-code specific behavior that is in contrast to the general = early media handling for
> >      other = provisional responses, eg SDP in 180.
> >   b. Does not allow symmetric = RTP or any other type of NAT friendly processing to occur (because the = source address
> >      is = unknown).
> >   c. Is an unnecessary = "saving". Why not send the SDP? Sending the reverse SDP = doesn't hurt and is in line with
> >      processing = for other early media sessions (eg 180 with SDP). Just because the both = SDP are specified, does not
> >      mean that = the UAS need accept any media in the forward direction.
> >
> >
> I agree that the 183 with SDP is useful, = however, others were insistent that it not be standardized.
>
> >
> >
> > What do other people think? I know we all = hate early media but at least let's make the handling of what we = have
> > consistent across all response = codes.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Robert.

_______________________________________________
This list is for continuing development of the SIP = protocol.
The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss = implementation,
and to receive advice on understanding existing = sip.
To subscribe to it, send mail to
sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with = "subscribe" in the body.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C0DD2B.B1B2EF40-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 15 08:33:00 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id IAA23521 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 08:32:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2085944337; Tue, 15 May 2001 08:33:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mgw-x3.nokia.com (mgw-x3.nokia.com [131.228.20.26]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D96A44336 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 08:32:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from esvir03nok.nokia.com (esvir03nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.35]) by mgw-x3.nokia.com (Switch-2.1.0/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id f4FCX1v14050 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 15:33:01 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh24nok.ntc.nokia.com (unverified) by esvir03nok.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.1) with ESMTP id ; Tue, 15 May 2001 15:32:18 +0300 Received: by esebh24nok with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2652.78) id ; Tue, 15 May 2001 15:32:06 +0300 Message-ID: From: aki.niemi@nokia.com To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Cc: jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com, brett@broadsoft.com Subject: RE: [SIP] WWW-Authenticate in 2xx responses MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2652.78) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 15:31:57 +0300 Hi, > > The bis currently reflects that the WWW-Authenticate > > header can only be in requests and 401 responses. > > Can the WWW-Authenticate header be passed within a > > 2xx response (updating nonce) to hopefully avoid > > some extra 401's during subsequent > > registrations/requests directed to the same > > registrar/UAS? > > No. > > The way to avoid the extra 401s is to cache the credentials, > and resubmit > them for any subsequent requests to the same URI. In other > words, you don't > wait for a 401 to insert an Authorization header. Each > request for the same > URI contains any Authorization header sent previously to that > same URI. The > nonce may have become stale, in which case the request will > generate a 401 > which effectively refreshes the nonce. But isn't the point here, that nonces ultimately do become stale, and must at some point be refreshed in the 401s. Hence generating "extra" 401s, sooner or later. In my opinion, this is not entirely necessary. HTTP Authentication does specify a header to be inserted to responses by the server, namely Authentication-Info, which is used to convey next nonce as well as provide for mutual authentication in HTTP. It is beyond me, why this functionality wasn't originally copied to SIP; the registration scenario at least is analogous to where Authentication-Info is used in HTTP. Henning's current draft on registrations addresses this issue shortly, but I really think that the Authentication-Info (and possibly Proxy-Authentication-Info) header should be added to the bis draft. Old-school clients can always ignore the header and only pick up nonces from 401s. Or does this add some additional complexity, that I have missed? The extra added value in Authentication-Info would then be mutual authentication, i.e. the client authenticating the server, which can't be done in current SIP. So isn't bringing these info headers to SIP worth serious considering? Of course, Proxy-Authentication-Info in SIP is tricky, since I guess it would demand the authenticating server to Record-Route and be stateful. But a registrar using Authentication-Info would be perfectly in-line with HTTP Authentication. BR, Aki _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 15 08:35:01 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id IAA23594 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 08:35:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11B5F44362; Tue, 15 May 2001 08:35:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mailgate.pit.comms.marconi.com (mailgate.pit.comms.marconi.com [169.144.68.6]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB7D144362 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 08:34:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailman.pit.comms.marconi.com (mailman.pit.comms.marconi.com [169.144.2.12]) by mailgate.pit.comms.marconi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA06326; Tue, 15 May 2001 08:34:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from whq-msgrtr-01.pit.comms.marconi.com (whq-msgrtr-01.pit.comms.marconi.com [169.144.2.221]) by mailman.pit.comms.marconi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA21423; Tue, 15 May 2001 08:34:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by whq-msgrtr-01.pit.comms.marconi.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 15 May 2001 08:33:43 -0400 Message-ID: <4FBEA8857476D311A03300204840E1CF01A6F5FA@whq-msgusr-02.pit.comms.marconi.com> From: "Rosen, Brian" To: "'Jonathan Rosenberg'" , "'Bryan Byerly'" , Igor Slepchin Cc: patrick.mourot@online.fr, sip@lists.bell-labs.com, stlevy@cisco.com Subject: RE: [Sip-implementors] Re: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of dat e MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 08:34:07 -0400 I'll address the process problems. Drafts which are sip wg items will, at the next rev after they are accepted as work group items, be called draft-ietf-sip. The rechartering process is still underway, but the sip (as opposed to sipping) charter is posted, and the drafts are listed. Anyone can write a draft, submit it, and "announce" it to the appropriate list. Discussion can ensue. The chairs will rule pretty quickly if the draft is so far outside the charter that it is inappropriate to continue on the list, but in most cases, we will allow discussion to continue for a while. If the resulting discussion indicates that the level of interest is low, we will halt discussion on the list. Authors are free to pursue the work on their own, creating special lists, and announcing same on the sip list. If the resulting discussion indicates that the level of interest is high, the chairs will consider a request to add the draft to the accepted items list. The barrier for entry is presently VERY high. It may take discussion at a meeting for such a move to be completed, or list discussion may suffice. Regardless, the process is that the authors ask, the chairs rule. If you don't ask, it isn't a WG item. AD participation in this process is almost mandatory given the work load. We aren't going to add any item that could reasonably be done in another group, or that seriously expands the charter. WG items are tracked on the auxiliary web page. Non items are not tracked. If it isn't on the tracking page, it isn't a work item. The "official" WG page is also updated with accepted work items. In this case, the authors have asked, and thus far, the chairs have been not inclined to carry this item forward, but have been allowing discussion to continue for a while. Shortly, we will have to decide if this is, or isn't appropriate. As we said, the barrier is very high. If you WANT this item to move forward, get into the discussion. Brian > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonathan Rosenberg [mailto:jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 3:19 AM > To: 'Bryan Byerly'; Igor Slepchin > Cc: patrick.mourot@online.fr; sip@lists.bell-labs.com; > stlevy@cisco.com > Subject: RE: [Sip-implementors] Re: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of > dat e > > > Well, I've got a bunch of issues with this draft. So, lets > take it from the > top. > > Firstly, we have a process problem. There are now many > implementations of > this extension, many of them under the apparent belief that > this is going to > be an IETF standard. Indeed, there is an I-D, which is being actively > maintained. However, it is not a work item of sipping or sip. To my > knowledge, there has not been consensus to move forward with > CC-Diversion on > the standards track. According to the notes from IETF-49, > there was only > "medium interest", for whatever thats worth. It doesn't have the > draft-ietf-sip-* name. Unfortunately, many other drafts don't > have that > title, and yet they are on the standards track. And thats > the problem. > > Just because something is submitted to IETF as an I-D, and > maintained, does > not mean it is on the standards track, either through the > working group, or > individually (and I'll note that very few individual drafts > get approved on > the standards track). In fact, a very small fraction of the > drafts submitted > ever see standards track. Unfortunately, the SIP group has > not done a good > job of helping the community distinguish between documents on > the standards > track, and those not on the standards track. The right way to > do this is > that all standards track documents are draft-ietf-sip-*. If > something new > comes up that people want to make standard, we get it on the > charter, and > then rev the doc with a draft-ietf-sip-* name. Before that > happens, the > document is NOT ON THE STANDARDS TRACK. > > This process problem is not the fault of this draft, but the > draft appears > to have brought it forward. > > My second problem is the subtle implications this has with backwards > compatibility and interoperability with ISDN/ISUP systems, > particularly > voicemail systems. The Diversion header is clearly just the SIP > reincarnation of the existing redirecting number from ISDN > and ISUP. That, > of course, facilitates interoperability with ISDN/ISUP. > However, it means > that gateways may not properly set the redirecting number in > ISUP/ISDN in > the absence of the Diversion header. Similarly, SIP-enabled > systems that > look for the Diversion header to define services may not > function properly > in the absence of Diversion. As a result of that, Diversion basically > becomes mandatory for these to work. Unfortunately, this > appears to have > occurred in some implementations and deployments already. > Since proxies are > the ones that insert Diversion, this means that Diversion > would require a > Proxy-Require header to function. In fact, its far more > insidious than that. > A UAC would need to insert a Proxy-Require in each and every > request, not > because the UAC wants a service, but because the call might possibly, > someday, hit a downstream system which uses Diversion. > > Extensions that need Proxy-Require to function are > effectively non-backwards > compatible extensions. See draft-ietf-sip-guidelines on why > its very, very > bad. May as well call them another protocol, since they are > not compatible > with baseline SIP. > > Now, this problem is fixable. As Allison has mentioned during > IETF 50, all > extensions henceforth MUST describe how backwards > compatibility operates. > Therefore, the draft MUST describe how gateways, voicemail > servers, and > anything else that looks at Diversion, would work in its absence. > > However, the issue with Proxy-Require is related to an architectural > assumption which I strongly disagree with. The underlying > architectural > assumption is that applications on behalf of user A will > execute on some > system far downstream from user A. These applications depend > on data known > to the proxy that serves A, and therefore this data must be > passed to the > application. The Diversion header exists to propagate this > information. This > is effectively a centralized service architecture. In a more > distributed > system, if I want an application to run on behalf of user A, > I run it at the > server which serves user A. > > Let me be concrete, with an example. Lets take the > interesting scenario > where user X calls boss B. Boss B is not available, so the call gets > forwarded to the secretary S. The secretary is S also not > available, so the > call is forwarded to voicemail. An application on the > voicemail server, > executing on behalf of boss B and secretary S, determines that the the > voicemail for the boss, not the secretary, should be dropped. > Now, if I > assume that this application exists in the voicemail server, > downstream from > the caller, then of course some kind of information on this > diversion must > be passed to the server. > > However, no new extension is needed if a more distributed > approach is taken. > When the call reaches the proxy for B, the application for B > resides there. > It proxies the call to the proxy for S, and sets the > Request-Disposition > header to redirect. The proxy for S runs an application on > behalf of the > secretary. This application forwards to voicemail if the secretary is > unavailable. Because of the Request-Disposition, the call is > redirected to > voicemail rather than being proxied. This moves control for > the call back to > the boss, B. The bosses application decides instead to > forward the call to > the boss's voicemail, and so proxies the call to a URI > corresponding to the > voicemail drop for the boss. This works just fine, and requires no new > extensions. > > Another spin on this is to view it as a feature interaction > problem. The > boss wants to forward to his secretary if he is there, > otherwise to his own > voicemail if the secretary is not available. The secretary > wants to forward > the call to his voicemail if he's not available. These two > features are > contradictory, and thus interact with each other. Since the > secretary and > boss are served by (potentially) separate proxies, we have a > classic MUMC > (multiple-user, multiple-component) interaction. The > Diversion approach is > to assume that we can reconcile all these interactions by > somehow having > "policy" at the endpoint server. This policy knows what the right > reconciliation is for all potential interactions, assuming it > has all the > data it needs. To obtain this data (here, the set of > diversions), the data > is passed from the proxies along the path to the application. > My concern is > this "magical" assumption that policy on the server will know > the right > thing to do in order to reconcile all feature interactions. > > Rather than take this approach, a more robust feature > interaction approach > is to let the feature for the boss, and the feature for the > secretary, run > independently. The feature for the boss runs on the boss's proxy (or > application server). The feature for the secretary runs on > the secretary's > proxy (or application server). The two applications know > nothing about each > other, and run independently. The bosses application runs > first. It "wins" > the feature interaction if it maintains control of the call. > The secretary's > application "wins" if it keeps control of the call after the > boss forwards > it. As a result, the reconciliation between the features is > determined by > the ordering of the invocation of these two, and the flow of > control between > them. This is the approach proposed by modern feature > interaction systems, > such as Distributed Feature Composition (DFC) and ECLIPSE, > and the recent > I-D on SERL [draft-steenfeldt-sip-serl-fwr-00.txt]. All of > these are based > on the well-known "cascaded" approach to feature interaction > in the IN. Its > also the same as the approach I proposed above using > Request-Disposition. > There are many advantages to this approach. It does not > require passing > additional information to third party components to perform feature > interaction reconciliation. As a result, there are no > security risks (since > no information is divulged), as there are with the Diversion approach. > Managing the feature interactions is easy. As new users are > added, we don't > need to program a single system with the interactions between > that user's > features, and the features of existing users, as we do in the > Diversion > approach. We do not need an extension, since no new > information is being > passed between applications. The diversion approach requires > an extension. > > This distributed approach is also the one advocated by rfc3087, and by > draft-rosenberg-sip-app-components. RFC3087 talked about access to SIP > voicemail features, using the request URI as a service identifier. > > So, my point here is that Diversion is needed only under a > very specific > architectural model. This model has well known feature interaction > complications, which are resolved readily in a more distributed model. > Furthermore, the distributed approach is more secure and requires no > extension. > > Onto the next issue. > > I believe the point was made that Diversion simplifies PSTN > interoperability. If a request has been diverted in the PSTN, > we can carry > the PSTN diversion information in SIP in the Diversion > headers. This way, we > can design SIP enabled systems that provide servers to PSTN endpoints, > without loss of information. However, we've talked about this > issue for a > long time. The SIP group has already decided that instead of > defining each > ISUP/ISDN header as a SIP header, we will encapsulate these > PSTN messages as > bodies, and use SIP-T. That means we can still build SIP > enabled systems > that provide services to PSTN users, without loss of > information, yet we can > avoid replicating each ISUP header into SIP. > > OK, now to some nitty gritty issues I have with Diversion. It > says that the > proxies only insert the Diversion header when the call is > diverted, which is > defined as: > > diversion: A change to the ultimate destination endpoint > of a request. A change in the Request-URI of a > request that was not caused by a routing decision. > This is also sometimes called a deflection or > redirection. > A diversion can occur when the "user" portion of the > Request-URI is changed for a reason other than > expansion or translation. > > Now, I would be really impressed if someone can tell me how > to program a > proxy to know the difference between a routing decision that > changes the > ultimate destination, and one that does not. In SIP, we make > no distinction > between the two. So, effectively, every single proxy or > redirect operation > will require the insertion of this Diversion header. This > means another set > of stacked headers, of exactly the same length as the Via > headers. That > significant overhead, and its additional processing. > Furthermore, every > proxy would need to do it for each and every call, since they > don't know > whether the ultimate recipient will need to make use of > Diversion to provide > some services. > > The final concern I have is a "slippery slope" argument. Effectively, > Diversion is about encapsulating a routing decision made at > point A, and > sending it to a downstream device. Right now, Diversion > handles routing > decisions such as call-forward-no-answer, call-forward-busy, > unconditional, > and so on. However, in practice, the logic for a call diversion can be > arbitrarily complex. What if its some complex CPL script that > caused the > diversion? How do I represent that kind of logic? Where do we > draw the line? > The problem is avoided by not trying to transfer this kind of > information in > the first place. If an application requires routing > information on proxy A > to function, then the application runs at A. > > -Jonathan R. > > > > --- > Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 72 Eagle Rock Ave. > Chief Scientist First Floor > dynamicsoft East Hanover, NJ 07936 > jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 > http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 > http://www.dynamicsoft.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bryan Byerly [mailto:byerly@cisco.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 5:33 PM > > To: Igor Slepchin > > Cc: patrick.mourot@online.fr; sip@lists.bell-labs.com; > > sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu; stlevy@cisco.com; byerly@cisco.com > > Subject: [Sip-implementors] Re: [SIP] Draft about diversion > > out of date > > > > > > Hi Igor, > > > > I've attached an additional example of a scenario that you've > > requested. > > > > Please see other responses inline. > > > > thanks for your help, > > Bryan > > > > Igor Slepchin wrote: > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Bryan Byerly [mailto:byerly@cisco.com] > > > > > > > > As I presented at the December 2000 IETF, the I-D is > > > > motivated by several > > > > PSTN/SIP internetworking scenarios including: > > > > > > I'd like to see what internetworking scenarios don't work > > without it. > > > > I've attached one such example. > > > > > > Multiple diversions. > > > > > > Hmm, these are not really supported by PSTN. Just as your > > draft says, the > > > only information available in ISDN parameters are the > > called party and the > > > redirecting number. Nowhere does PSTN remember all the > > previous redirections > > > like suggested by the draft. > > > > Actually, as the Diversion I-D points out, most ISUP and ISDN > > variants support > > up to 2 redirecting numbers. Could you point out the part of > > the Diversion > > I-D that led you to believe there could be only one? We'd > > need to clarify that > > section. > > > > > > Diverting a call to an E.164 service. > > > > > > What services is Diversion header required for? There are > > lots of obscure > > > parameters in PSTN signaling; replicating all of them in > > SIP does not sound > > > like a very good idea and is not necessary for internetworking. > > > > The Diversion I-D is focused on answering 2 questions for the > > (ultimately) > > called user agent: > > From whom was the call diverted? > > Why was the call diverted? > > > > Implementations of services such as voicemail and night > > service frequently > > require this information. > > > > > > Configuration issues (moving policy configuration to > edges (UAs)) > > > > > > > > An ultimately called UAS can use the Diversion headers to > > > > implement a local > > > > policy for his particular service. For example, to answer > > > > the question: > > > > Into which voice mailbox should a message be placed? It's > > > > important to > > > > understand that this is a policy decision; and as such should be > > > > configurable at the ultimate edge of the voice network (i.e. > > > > move the smarts > > > > to the edges). The examples in section 9 do cover some of > > > > these issues. > > > > > > I find examples in section 9 rather farfetched. No company > > is ever going to > > > have SIP addresses that look like sip:pizza@p1.isp.com > > (when was the last > > > time you saw a real company with an email account at aol.com?) > > > Realistically, the night service calls you mentioned will > > be redirected to > > > something like pizza@nightservice.com or roses@nightservice.com. > > > > The example shows translation of a generic keyword (pizza) > > into a specific URL > > as determined by the policy of the "carrier". Today's web brower > > "carriers" already exhibit this type of behavior today. Try > > typing "pizza" in > > your web browser... I wouldn't be surprised if the topmost > > hits weren't > > somehow compensating the web browser "carrier". I'd imagine > > that tomorrow's > > VoIP carriers could base some business models off of this idea. > > > > Again, please also see the attached example below. Perhaps > > it will seem more > > realistic. > > > > The Diversion header is merely providing supplementary > > information that cannot > > always be found in any other parts of the SIP PDU. > > Implementors of some > > services (including voicemail and nightservice) need a consistent > > (standardized) mechanism to retrieve this supplementary > > information so that > > they can apply policy decisions to it to affect their service > > logic. The > > Diversion header provides such a mechanism and does so > > without creating a > > configuration burden on system administrators of intermediate > > gateway/routing > > nodes. > > > > thanks again for your help, > > Bryan > > > > Bryan J. Byerly > > byerly@cisco.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 15 08:57:58 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id IAA24492 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 08:57:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BC334437F; Tue, 15 May 2001 08:58:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from cs.columbia.edu (cs.columbia.edu [128.59.16.20]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86B384436F for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 08:57:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bart.cs.columbia.edu (bart.cs.columbia.edu [128.59.19.191]) by cs.columbia.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA08898; Tue, 15 May 2001 08:57:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cs.columbia.edu (bart.cs.columbia.edu [128.59.19.191]) by bart.cs.columbia.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA26399; Tue, 15 May 2001 08:57:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B01278E.97140A52@cs.columbia.edu> From: Henning Schulzrinne X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathan Rosenberg Cc: "'Bryan Byerly'" , Igor Slepchin , patrick.mourot@online.fr, sip@lists.bell-labs.com, stlevy@cisco.com Subject: Re: [Sip-implementors] Re: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of date References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 08:56:46 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To add (or probably just rephrase): In the voicemail case, leaving the decision to the secretary's proxy is also not the right thing. How is the secretary to know what to do? After all, there may well be cases where the secretary *should* get the voicemail, since S may be the one that can actually access it in time. Indeed, by infering intent from route, I can get myself into the situation that I want to avoid talking to B's voicemail (since I know B can't or won't pick it up) and instead want to either get B directly or talk to S. If I rely on diversion, I will inevitably end up in B's mailbox. Thus, the mere indication of diversion provides insufficient clarity as to the intent of the caller or any intermediate parties for further handling of the request. On the other hand, B's proxy can make this decision, since it's B's call. Thus, this is also an example of explicit vs. implicit. In the old phone system, we could only express things implicitly ("because these things happened, the caller must have meant to do X"). Also note that for the most common case, we already have the most important information, namely the caller-intended destination, in the To header. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 15 09:11:00 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA25130 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 09:11:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0B5B4436F; Tue, 15 May 2001 09:11:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from albatross-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se (albatross-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [194.237.142.116]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2324844336 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 09:10:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fogerty.lmf.ericsson.se (fogerty.lmf.ericsson.se [131.160.11.6]) by albatross.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.11.0/8.11.0/WIREfire-1.3) with ESMTP id f4FDAGN12823; Tue, 15 May 2001 15:10:16 +0200 (MEST) Received: from lmf.ericsson.se (E005004B52C74.lmf.ericsson.se [131.160.30.161]) by fogerty.lmf.ericsson.se (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4FDAEJ12260; Tue, 15 May 2001 16:10:14 +0300 (EET DST) Message-ID: <3B012AAE.7D7D051B@lmf.ericsson.se> From: Christer Holmberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: brett@broadsoft.com Cc: "'Steve Donovan'" , sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: Re: [SIP] Session timer considered harmful (was RE: draft-ietf-sip-session- timer: refresh rate) References: <000e01c0d98e$f3f866a0$2b01a8c0@broadsoft.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------153E78444141C6EC724C5C1D" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 16:10:06 +0300 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------153E78444141C6EC724C5C1D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Some comments. >>1) A method for a proxy or UAS to reject a session timer >>request because the >>session timer value is too small. This is needed for both >>approaches, so >>should not be controversial. I would propose that we use the >>488 response >>with a reason phrase of Session Timer Too Small (or something >>similar). I >>would also propose that the session-expires header be used in >>this response >>to indicate the minimal acceptable session timer value. >>(Note: I'm trying >>to reuse an existing response instead of creating a new one. We can >>certainly create a new one, if there is consensus to do so). >Reusing 488 is fine, but the current bis definition >only reflects that SDP is the problem instead of >potentially the headers. > >Reusing Session-Expires in the 488 is fine, but it >would potentially cause confusion with the fact >that currently Session-Expires in a negative response >will still reset session timer. [However as I've >mentioned previously, I wish negative response >couldn't extend sessions since a proxy could have >generated the negative response instead of the UAS.] [Christer]: I would still vote for a specific 4xx code. It is then possible to specify specific actions, by nodes supporting the session-timer, to be taken when it arrives, ie that the Session-Expires header would have a special meaning. >>2) We change the session-expires header to only support delta >>times with a >>granularity of minutes. I think there is consensus that >>session-expires >>values of less than one minute are not needed. > >Keeping granularity in seconds is fine with me. >I'm more concerned about the minimum Session-Expires >value. > >>3) We add stronger wording in the security section of the >>draft describing >>the smurf attack that Jonathan is worried about. As part of >>the wording, we >>add the statement that entities supporting session timer >>SHOULD support a >>minimum time of n minutes. I propose we take Jonathan's >>suggestion and make >>n = 30. The obvious difference here is that Jonathan's >>suggestion becomes a >>SHOULD instead of a MUST. > >I prefer that Session-Expires MUST NOT be less than >2 minutes. This helps accommodate for the retries of >200 and INVITE over UDP to get the session extended. >I'd actually prefer a higher value, but I assume >that some would be uncomfortable with the >"MUST NOT" part of the text if the value was higher. > >In addition to the MUST NOT be less than 2 minutes, >I prefer the draft state that Session-Expires >SHOULD NOT be less 30 minutes for SIP messaging >that traverses a public network. > >Based on the recommendation of sending refreshers >after 1/2 Session-Expires, the Session-Expires >triggered re-INVITEs MUST NOT occur more often >than every minute and SHOULD NOT occur more often >than every 15 minutes. > >It might also be beneficial to mention in the draft >that support of the Session-Expires can lead to >more re-INVITE collisions, especially if the >Session-Expires value is small. [Christer] I am still against the MUST NOT for the time value. If we define a 4xx (or if we use 488), with the Session-Expires header telling the minimum value, there is no need to specify a minimum value in the standard. It's then up to the operator/network provider to specify a minimum value for his network, and configure the nodes to not accept any value below that. Regards, Christer Holmberg Ericsson Finland > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. --------------153E78444141C6EC724C5C1D Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="christer.holmberg.vcf" Content-Description: Card for Christer Holmberg Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="christer.holmberg.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit begin:vcard n:Holmberg;Christer tel;cell:+358-40-5604412 tel;work:+358-9-2992943 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Ericsson;IP Multimedia / Advanced Signalling Research Laboratory adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 email;internet:christer.holmberg@lmf.ericsson.se title:System Designer fn:Christer Holmberg end:vcard --------------153E78444141C6EC724C5C1D-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 15 09:34:00 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA26382 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 09:33:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B26F4433F; Tue, 15 May 2001 09:34:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2853344336 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 09:33:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id JAA18277; Tue, 15 May 2001 09:37:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 15 May 2001 09:33:35 -0400 Message-ID: <9BF66EBF6BEFD942915B4D4D45C051F318039D@DYN-TX-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com> From: Steve Donovan To: "'Christer Holmberg'" , brett@broadsoft.com Cc: Steve Donovan , sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] Session timer considered harmful (was RE: draft-ietf-s ip-session- timer: refresh rate) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 09:33:33 -0400 > -----Original Message----- > From: Christer Holmberg [mailto:christer.holmberg@lmf.ericsson.se] > Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 8:10 AM > To: brett@broadsoft.com > Cc: 'Steve Donovan'; sip@lists.bell-labs.com > Subject: Re: [SIP] Session timer considered harmful (was RE: > draft-ietf-sip-session- timer: refresh rate) > > > > Hi, > > Some comments. > > >>1) A method for a proxy or UAS to reject a session timer > >>request because the > >>session timer value is too small. This is needed for both > >>approaches, so > >>should not be controversial. I would propose that we use the > >>488 response > >>with a reason phrase of Session Timer Too Small (or something > >>similar). I > >>would also propose that the session-expires header be used in > >>this response > >>to indicate the minimal acceptable session timer value. > >>(Note: I'm trying > >>to reuse an existing response instead of creating a new one. We can > >>certainly create a new one, if there is consensus to do so). > >Reusing 488 is fine, but the current bis definition > >only reflects that SDP is the problem instead of > >potentially the headers. > > > >Reusing Session-Expires in the 488 is fine, but it > >would potentially cause confusion with the fact > >that currently Session-Expires in a negative response > >will still reset session timer. [However as I've > >mentioned previously, I wish negative response > >couldn't extend sessions since a proxy could have > >generated the negative response instead of the UAS.] > > [Christer]: I would still vote for a specific 4xx code. It is then > possible to specify specific actions, by nodes supporting the > session-timer, to be taken when it arrives, ie that the > Session-Expires > header would have a special meaning. This can be achieved by using the combination of the 488 and the presence of a session-expires header. > > >>2) We change the session-expires header to only support delta > >>times with a > >>granularity of minutes. I think there is consensus that > >>session-expires > >>values of less than one minute are not needed. > > > >Keeping granularity in seconds is fine with me. > >I'm more concerned about the minimum Session-Expires > >value. > > > >>3) We add stronger wording in the security section of the > >>draft describing > >>the smurf attack that Jonathan is worried about. As part of > >>the wording, we > >>add the statement that entities supporting session timer > >>SHOULD support a > >>minimum time of n minutes. I propose we take Jonathan's > >>suggestion and make > >>n = 30. The obvious difference here is that Jonathan's > >>suggestion becomes a > >>SHOULD instead of a MUST. > > > >I prefer that Session-Expires MUST NOT be less than > >2 minutes. This helps accommodate for the retries of > >200 and INVITE over UDP to get the session extended. > >I'd actually prefer a higher value, but I assume > >that some would be uncomfortable with the > >"MUST NOT" part of the text if the value was higher. > > > >In addition to the MUST NOT be less than 2 minutes, > >I prefer the draft state that Session-Expires > >SHOULD NOT be less 30 minutes for SIP messaging > >that traverses a public network. > > > >Based on the recommendation of sending refreshers > >after 1/2 Session-Expires, the Session-Expires > >triggered re-INVITEs MUST NOT occur more often > >than every minute and SHOULD NOT occur more often > >than every 15 minutes. > > > >It might also be beneficial to mention in the draft > >that support of the Session-Expires can lead to > >more re-INVITE collisions, especially if the > >Session-Expires value is small. > > [Christer] I am still against the MUST NOT for the time value. If we > define a 4xx (or if we use 488), with the Session-Expires > header telling > the minimum value, there is no need to specify a minimum value in the > standard. It's then up to the operator/network provider to specify a > minimum value for his network, and configure the nodes to not > accept any > value below that. I agree. The current plan is for the next revision of the draft to contain that the session timer value SHOULD NOT be less than 30 minutes. > > Regards, > > Christer Holmberg > Ericsson Finland > > > > _______________________________________________ > > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > > To subscribe to it, send mail to > > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" > in the body. > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 15 10:27:58 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA28657 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 10:27:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4ACA4435C; Tue, 15 May 2001 10:28:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from cs.columbia.edu (cs.columbia.edu [128.59.16.20]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96FF944336 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 10:27:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from conrail.cs.columbia.edu (conrail.cs.columbia.edu [128.59.19.147]) by cs.columbia.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA16224; Tue, 15 May 2001 10:27:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from lennox@localhost) by conrail.cs.columbia.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) id KAA16400; Tue, 15 May 2001 10:27:49 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lennox) From: Jonathan Lennox MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15105.15588.550311.505123@conrail.cs.columbia.edu> To: Cc: "SIP (E-mail)" Subject: Re: [SIP] WWW-Authenticate in 2xx responses In-Reply-To: <005e01c0dcb0$2c8c7050$2b01a8c0@broadsoft.com> References: <005e01c0dcb0$2c8c7050$2b01a8c0@broadsoft.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under Emacs 19.34.1 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 10:27:48 -0400 (EDT) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Monday, May 14 2001, "Brett Tate" wrote to "SIP (E-mail)" saying: > The bis currently reflects that the WWW-Authenticate > header can only be in requests and 401 responses. > Can the WWW-Authenticate header be passed within a > 2xx response (updating nonce) to hopefully avoid > some extra 401's during subsequent > registrations/requests directed to the same > registrar/UAS? > > The bis currently reflects that Proxy-Authenticate > can only be in 401 and 407. Can the Proxy-Authenticate > header be passed within a 2xx response (updating nonce) > to hopefully avoid some extra 401/407's for subsequent > requests/calls through an outbound proxies? > > Any comments or pointers to email threads where > this has been previously discussed? RFC 2617 defines Authentication-Info and Proxy-Authentication-Info response headers for this purpose (a 'nextnonce' parameter) among other things. Since bis now references 2617 rather than the older 2069 for authentication, I imagine these headers are now incorporated by reference, even though they're not explicitly mentioned in bis yet. -- Jonathan Lennox lennox@cs.columbia.edu _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 15 12:10:56 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA01659 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 12:10:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1307744337; Tue, 15 May 2001 12:11:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mailcity.com (fes-qout.whowhere.com [209.185.123.96]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 02E9844336 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 12:10:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by mailcity.com; Tue May 15 09:10:17 2001 To: "SIP List" From: "Info Van" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: on Reply-To: infovaan@lycos.com X-Mailer: MailCity Service X-Sender-Ip: 207.31.112.126 Organization: Lycos Mail (http://mail.lycos.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Language: en Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [SIP] SIP MGCP i/w Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 12:10:17 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hi, in the SIP FAQ (http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~hgs/sip/faq.cgi) the answer to "Q. What is the relationship between MGCP and SIP?" islepchin@dynamicsoft.com writes that "The details of combining the two in a system are still being fleshed out"... is this still true, i mean are they still being fleshed out, or some document (draft maybe) is available to help with the interworking ? thanks, iv. Get 250 color business cards for FREE! http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/ _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 15 13:15:03 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA03263 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 13:15:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3709244337; Tue, 15 May 2001 13:15:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from zcars0m9.nortelnetworks.com (h157s242a129n47.user.nortelnetworks.com [47.129.242.157]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 8974644336 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 13:14:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from qnsgs000.nortel.com by zcars0m9.nortelnetworks.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA02119; Tue, 15 May 2001 13:14:20 -0400 Received: from nwcwi1a.europe.nortel.com by qnsgs000.nortel.com; Tue, 15 May 2001 17:25:32 +0100 Received: by nwcwi1a.europe.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 15 May 2001 17:25:18 +0100 Message-ID: From: "Mark Watson" To: Jonathan Rosenberg , "'Bryan Byerly'" , Igor Slepchin Cc: patrick.mourot@online.fr, sip@lists.bell-labs.com, stlevy@cisco.com Subject: RE: [Sip-implementors] Re: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of dat e MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C0DD5B.A23B1F80" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 17:25:19 +0100 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0DD5B.A23B1F80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Jonathan, If I understand correctly, you are arguing that wherever possible, services should be designed so that they can get the mandatory information they need from the Request-URI and the standard headers. This is consistent with the meaning of URIs, which identify a particular abstract resource that is required (i.e. particular voicemail *box*) rather than a device (i.e. voicemail server). This is a good point. However, as long as the entity asking for the service is aware of the service it is asking for, it can include the appropriate headers to access that service. You also described two service architectures, with the example of User X calling Boss B, being forwarded to Secretary S and subsequently to voicemail. You argue that the service which decides to whose voicemail the service should be forwarded to is associated with B, and so should reside with B. So, the S sends a redirect request back to B, which B recognises as a divert-to-voicemail. Then B decides which voicemail to divert to. In this case too, though, the information needed by the voicemail platform (namely, whose voicemail box?) is included in the INVITE sent to the voicemail platform. Whether the information is encoded into the Request-URI or the Diversion header seems to me unrelated to which 'service architecture' is used. So, I agree with your points about service architecture. The model you describe below and in draft-rosenberg-sip-app-components is a good one. I also agree with the point that where information is logically appropriate for the Request-URI, then that is where it should go, not in a new header. In the voicemail case, the abstract 'resource' which is indicated in the URI is a particular *voicemail box* not a particular voicemail server (by analogy, an HTTP URI identifies a document, service, whatever, not just a server on which the resource resides). However, I don't see why these two points are related. So, using the Diversion header for voicemail is a bad idea because it requires that the entity sending the call to voicemail needs to know that the Diversion header is required. Or, put another way, a voicemail service based on this can only be sold to users who have a proxy which can include the Diversion header for them on calls it sends to voicemail. Mayby voicemail platform vendors have a good reason for restricting their market in this way. On the other hand, a SIP voicemail platform owner who wishes to offer service to PSTN endpoints, needs to make sure that the PSTN gateway(s) used by their customers include the diverting number (=voicemail owners number) in the SIP INVITE, whether it be in the Request-URI, in the Diversion header or in the encapsulated ISUP IAM. The problem of ensuring that a capable gateway is used is no easier if you choose one approach (encapsulation) against another (Diversion). To my mind, Diversion information is an example of the 'service capability' approach - it is a generic capability which could be used for multiple services. So, it's not sufficient anyway to demonstrate that it is a 'bad idea for voicemail' to demonstrate that it is a bad idea full stop. We will presumably define many service capabilities, upon which innovative services can be built. It will always be the case that only users supporting the underlying service capabilities can access the service. A UA which does not support REFER cannot participate in a Call Transfer. The corollory is that sensible service designers will only rely on service capabilities that they absolutely do need. The Service Capabilities which are developed and deployed on SIP UAs will be driven by the popularity of the Services which rely on them. To my mind, the capability to transport the identity of a 'diverting' user is a useful service capability. At the very least it can be presented to the eventual called user on a 'best effort' basis. Services which make use of this capability have to be aware that it will not always be present, or the Service can only be offered to users with the Capability. The presence of the diverting identity would mean that the call had encountered some form of Diversion, but the absence of this information would not mean that diversion had not been encountered. To ensure that privacy is handled correctly with respect to this information, I'd suggest using Remote-Party-ID to carry it. The usefulness of explicit 'diversion reasons' is less clear, since in a SIP network we are not restricted to the old PSTN/ISDN diversion reasons (busy, no answer, universal, not reachable) - there could be as many diversion reasons as there are CPL scripts, so such information could be simply a text string. Regards, Mark Watson Nortel Networks > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonathan Rosenberg [mailto:jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com] > Sent: 15 May 2001 08:19 > To: 'Bryan Byerly'; Igor Slepchin > Cc: patrick.mourot@online.fr; sip@lists.bell-labs.com; > stlevy@cisco.com > Subject: RE: [Sip-implementors] Re: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of > dat e > > > Well, I've got a bunch of issues with this draft. So, lets > take it from the > top. > > Firstly, we have a process problem. There are now many > implementations of > this extension, many of them under the apparent belief that > this is going to > be an IETF standard. Indeed, there is an I-D, which is being actively > maintained. However, it is not a work item of sipping or sip. To my > knowledge, there has not been consensus to move forward with > CC-Diversion on > the standards track. According to the notes from IETF-49, > there was only > "medium interest", for whatever thats worth. It doesn't have the > draft-ietf-sip-* name. Unfortunately, many other drafts don't > have that > title, and yet they are on the standards track. And thats > the problem. > > Just because something is submitted to IETF as an I-D, and > maintained, does > not mean it is on the standards track, either through the > working group, or > individually (and I'll note that very few individual drafts > get approved on > the standards track). In fact, a very small fraction of the > drafts submitted > ever see standards track. Unfortunately, the SIP group has > not done a good > job of helping the community distinguish between documents on > the standards > track, and those not on the standards track. The right way to > do this is > that all standards track documents are draft-ietf-sip-*. If > something new > comes up that people want to make standard, we get it on the > charter, and > then rev the doc with a draft-ietf-sip-* name. Before that > happens, the > document is NOT ON THE STANDARDS TRACK. > > This process problem is not the fault of this draft, but the > draft appears > to have brought it forward. > > My second problem is the subtle implications this has with backwards > compatibility and interoperability with ISDN/ISUP systems, > particularly > voicemail systems. The Diversion header is clearly just the SIP > reincarnation of the existing redirecting number from ISDN > and ISUP. That, > of course, facilitates interoperability with ISDN/ISUP. > However, it means > that gateways may not properly set the redirecting number in > ISUP/ISDN in > the absence of the Diversion header. Similarly, SIP-enabled > systems that > look for the Diversion header to define services may not > function properly > in the absence of Diversion. As a result of that, Diversion basically > becomes mandatory for these to work. Unfortunately, this > appears to have > occurred in some implementations and deployments already. > Since proxies are > the ones that insert Diversion, this means that Diversion > would require a > Proxy-Require header to function. In fact, its far more > insidious than that. > A UAC would need to insert a Proxy-Require in each and every > request, not > because the UAC wants a service, but because the call might possibly, > someday, hit a downstream system which uses Diversion. > > Extensions that need Proxy-Require to function are > effectively non-backwards > compatible extensions. See draft-ietf-sip-guidelines on why > its very, very > bad. May as well call them another protocol, since they are > not compatible > with baseline SIP. > > Now, this problem is fixable. As Allison has mentioned during > IETF 50, all > extensions henceforth MUST describe how backwards > compatibility operates. > Therefore, the draft MUST describe how gateways, voicemail > servers, and > anything else that looks at Diversion, would work in its absence. > > However, the issue with Proxy-Require is related to an architectural > assumption which I strongly disagree with. The underlying > architectural > assumption is that applications on behalf of user A will > execute on some > system far downstream from user A. These applications depend > on data known > to the proxy that serves A, and therefore this data must be > passed to the > application. The Diversion header exists to propagate this > information. This > is effectively a centralized service architecture. In a more > distributed > system, if I want an application to run on behalf of user A, > I run it at the > server which serves user A. > > Let me be concrete, with an example. Lets take the > interesting scenario > where user X calls boss B. Boss B is not available, so the call gets > forwarded to the secretary S. The secretary is S also not > available, so the > call is forwarded to voicemail. An application on the > voicemail server, > executing on behalf of boss B and secretary S, determines that the the > voicemail for the boss, not the secretary, should be dropped. > Now, if I > assume that this application exists in the voicemail server, > downstream from > the caller, then of course some kind of information on this > diversion must > be passed to the server. > > However, no new extension is needed if a more distributed > approach is taken. > When the call reaches the proxy for B, the application for B > resides there. > It proxies the call to the proxy for S, and sets the > Request-Disposition > header to redirect. The proxy for S runs an application on > behalf of the > secretary. This application forwards to voicemail if the secretary is > unavailable. Because of the Request-Disposition, the call is > redirected to > voicemail rather than being proxied. This moves control for > the call back to > the boss, B. The bosses application decides instead to > forward the call to > the boss's voicemail, and so proxies the call to a URI > corresponding to the > voicemail drop for the boss. This works just fine, and requires no new > extensions. > > Another spin on this is to view it as a feature interaction > problem. The > boss wants to forward to his secretary if he is there, > otherwise to his own > voicemail if the secretary is not available. The secretary > wants to forward > the call to his voicemail if he's not available. These two > features are > contradictory, and thus interact with each other. Since the > secretary and > boss are served by (potentially) separate proxies, we have a > classic MUMC > (multiple-user, multiple-component) interaction. The > Diversion approach is > to assume that we can reconcile all these interactions by > somehow having > "policy" at the endpoint server. This policy knows what the right > reconciliation is for all potential interactions, assuming it > has all the > data it needs. To obtain this data (here, the set of > diversions), the data > is passed from the proxies along the path to the application. > My concern is > this "magical" assumption that policy on the server will know > the right > thing to do in order to reconcile all feature interactions. > > Rather than take this approach, a more robust feature > interaction approach > is to let the feature for the boss, and the feature for the > secretary, run > independently. The feature for the boss runs on the boss's proxy (or > application server). The feature for the secretary runs on > the secretary's > proxy (or application server). The two applications know > nothing about each > other, and run independently. The bosses application runs > first. It "wins" > the feature interaction if it maintains control of the call. > The secretary's > application "wins" if it keeps control of the call after the > boss forwards > it. As a result, the reconciliation between the features is > determined by > the ordering of the invocation of these two, and the flow of > control between > them. This is the approach proposed by modern feature > interaction systems, > such as Distributed Feature Composition (DFC) and ECLIPSE, > and the recent > I-D on SERL [draft-steenfeldt-sip-serl-fwr-00.txt]. All of > these are based > on the well-known "cascaded" approach to feature interaction > in the IN. Its > also the same as the approach I proposed above using > Request-Disposition. > There are many advantages to this approach. It does not > require passing > additional information to third party components to perform feature > interaction reconciliation. As a result, there are no > security risks (since > no information is divulged), as there are with the Diversion approach. > Managing the feature interactions is easy. As new users are > added, we don't > need to program a single system with the interactions between > that user's > features, and the features of existing users, as we do in the > Diversion > approach. We do not need an extension, since no new > information is being > passed between applications. The diversion approach requires > an extension. > > This distributed approach is also the one advocated by rfc3087, and by > draft-rosenberg-sip-app-components. RFC3087 talked about access to SIP > voicemail features, using the request URI as a service identifier. > > So, my point here is that Diversion is needed only under a > very specific > architectural model. This model has well known feature interaction > complications, which are resolved readily in a more distributed model. > Furthermore, the distributed approach is more secure and requires no > extension. > > Onto the next issue. > > I believe the point was made that Diversion simplifies PSTN > interoperability. If a request has been diverted in the PSTN, > we can carry > the PSTN diversion information in SIP in the Diversion > headers. This way, we > can design SIP enabled systems that provide servers to PSTN endpoints, > without loss of information. However, we've talked about this > issue for a > long time. The SIP group has already decided that instead of > defining each > ISUP/ISDN header as a SIP header, we will encapsulate these > PSTN messages as > bodies, and use SIP-T. That means we can still build SIP > enabled systems > that provide services to PSTN users, without loss of > information, yet we can > avoid replicating each ISUP header into SIP. > > OK, now to some nitty gritty issues I have with Diversion. It > says that the > proxies only insert the Diversion header when the call is > diverted, which is > defined as: > > diversion: A change to the ultimate destination endpoint > of a request. A change in the Request-URI of a > request that was not caused by a routing decision. > This is also sometimes called a deflection or > redirection. > A diversion can occur when the "user" portion of the > Request-URI is changed for a reason other than > expansion or translation. > > Now, I would be really impressed if someone can tell me how > to program a > proxy to know the difference between a routing decision that > changes the > ultimate destination, and one that does not. In SIP, we make > no distinction > between the two. So, effectively, every single proxy or > redirect operation > will require the insertion of this Diversion header. This > means another set > of stacked headers, of exactly the same length as the Via > headers. That > significant overhead, and its additional processing. > Furthermore, every > proxy would need to do it for each and every call, since they > don't know > whether the ultimate recipient will need to make use of > Diversion to provide > some services. > > The final concern I have is a "slippery slope" argument. Effectively, > Diversion is about encapsulating a routing decision made at > point A, and > sending it to a downstream device. Right now, Diversion > handles routing > decisions such as call-forward-no-answer, call-forward-busy, > unconditional, > and so on. However, in practice, the logic for a call diversion can be > arbitrarily complex. What if its some complex CPL script that > caused the > diversion? How do I represent that kind of logic? Where do we > draw the line? > The problem is avoided by not trying to transfer this kind of > information in > the first place. If an application requires routing > information on proxy A > to function, then the application runs at A. > > -Jonathan R. > > > > --- > Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 72 Eagle Rock Ave. > Chief Scientist First Floor > dynamicsoft East Hanover, NJ 07936 > jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 > http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 > http://www.dynamicsoft.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bryan Byerly [mailto:byerly@cisco.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 5:33 PM > > To: Igor Slepchin > > Cc: patrick.mourot@online.fr; sip@lists.bell-labs.com; > > sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu; stlevy@cisco.com; byerly@cisco.com > > Subject: [Sip-implementors] Re: [SIP] Draft about diversion > > out of date > > > > > > Hi Igor, > > > > I've attached an additional example of a scenario that you've > > requested. > > > > Please see other responses inline. > > > > thanks for your help, > > Bryan > > > > Igor Slepchin wrote: > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Bryan Byerly [mailto:byerly@cisco.com] > > > > > > > > As I presented at the December 2000 IETF, the I-D is > > > > motivated by several > > > > PSTN/SIP internetworking scenarios including: > > > > > > I'd like to see what internetworking scenarios don't work > > without it. > > > > I've attached one such example. > > > > > > Multiple diversions. > > > > > > Hmm, these are not really supported by PSTN. Just as your > > draft says, the > > > only information available in ISDN parameters are the > > called party and the > > > redirecting number. Nowhere does PSTN remember all the > > previous redirections > > > like suggested by the draft. > > > > Actually, as the Diversion I-D points out, most ISUP and ISDN > > variants support > > up to 2 redirecting numbers. Could you point out the part of > > the Diversion > > I-D that led you to believe there could be only one? We'd > > need to clarify that > > section. > > > > > > Diverting a call to an E.164 service. > > > > > > What services is Diversion header required for? There are > > lots of obscure > > > parameters in PSTN signaling; replicating all of them in > > SIP does not sound > > > like a very good idea and is not necessary for internetworking. > > > > The Diversion I-D is focused on answering 2 questions for the > > (ultimately) > > called user agent: > > From whom was the call diverted? > > Why was the call diverted? > > > > Implementations of services such as voicemail and night > > service frequently > > require this information. > > > > > > Configuration issues (moving policy configuration to > edges (UAs)) > > > > > > > > An ultimately called UAS can use the Diversion headers to > > > > implement a local > > > > policy for his particular service. For example, to answer > > > > the question: > > > > Into which voice mailbox should a message be placed? It's > > > > important to > > > > understand that this is a policy decision; and as such should be > > > > configurable at the ultimate edge of the voice network (i.e. > > > > move the smarts > > > > to the edges). The examples in section 9 do cover some of > > > > these issues. > > > > > > I find examples in section 9 rather farfetched. No company > > is ever going to > > > have SIP addresses that look like sip:pizza@p1.isp.com > > (when was the last > > > time you saw a real company with an email account at aol.com?) > > > Realistically, the night service calls you mentioned will > > be redirected to > > > something like pizza@nightservice.com or roses@nightservice.com. > > > > The example shows translation of a generic keyword (pizza) > > into a specific URL > > as determined by the policy of the "carrier". Today's web brower > > "carriers" already exhibit this type of behavior today. Try > > typing "pizza" in > > your web browser... I wouldn't be surprised if the topmost > > hits weren't > > somehow compensating the web browser "carrier". I'd imagine > > that tomorrow's > > VoIP carriers could base some business models off of this idea. > > > > Again, please also see the attached example below. Perhaps > > it will seem more > > realistic. > > > > The Diversion header is merely providing supplementary > > information that cannot > > always be found in any other parts of the SIP PDU. > > Implementors of some > > services (including voicemail and nightservice) need a consistent > > (standardized) mechanism to retrieve this supplementary > > information so that > > they can apply policy decisions to it to affect their service > > logic. The > > Diversion header provides such a mechanism and does so > > without creating a > > configuration burden on system administrators of intermediate > > gateway/routing > > nodes. > > > > thanks again for your help, > > Bryan > > > > Bryan J. Byerly > > byerly@cisco.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0DD5B.A23B1F80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [Sip-implementors] Re: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of = dat e

Jonathan,

If I understand correctly, you are arguing that = wherever possible, services should be designed so that they can get the = mandatory information they need from the Request-URI and the standard = headers. This is consistent with the meaning of URIs, which identify a = particular abstract resource that is required (i.e. particular = voicemail *box*) rather than a device (i.e. voicemail = server).

This is a good point. However, as long as the entity = asking for the service is aware of the service it is asking for, it can = include the appropriate headers to access that service.

You also described two service architectures, with = the example of User X calling Boss B, being forwarded to Secretary S = and subsequently to voicemail. You argue that the service which decides = to whose voicemail the service should be forwarded to is associated = with B, and so should reside with B. So, the S sends a redirect request = back to B, which B recognises as a divert-to-voicemail. Then B decides = which voicemail to divert to.

In this case too, though, the information needed by = the voicemail platform (namely, whose voicemail box?) is included in = the INVITE sent to the voicemail platform. Whether the information is = encoded into the Request-URI or the Diversion header seems to me = unrelated to which 'service architecture' is used.

So, I agree with your points about service = architecture. The model you describe below and in = draft-rosenberg-sip-app-components is a good one.

I also agree with the point that where information is = logically appropriate for the Request-URI, then that is where it should = go, not in a new header. In the voicemail case, the abstract 'resource' = which is indicated in the URI is a particular *voicemail box* not a = particular voicemail server (by analogy, an HTTP URI identifies a = document, service, whatever, not just a server on which the resource = resides).

However, I don't see why these two points are = related.

So, using the Diversion header for voicemail is a bad = idea because it requires that the entity sending the call to voicemail = needs to know that the Diversion header is required. Or, put another = way, a voicemail service based on this can only be sold to users who = have a proxy which can include the Diversion header for them on calls = it sends to voicemail. Mayby voicemail platform vendors have a good = reason for restricting their market in this way.

On the other hand, a SIP voicemail platform owner who = wishes to offer service to PSTN endpoints, needs to make sure that the = PSTN gateway(s) used by their customers include the diverting number = (=3Dvoicemail owners number) in the SIP INVITE, whether it be in the = Request-URI, in the Diversion header or in the encapsulated ISUP IAM. = The problem of ensuring that a capable gateway is used is no easier if = you choose one approach (encapsulation) against another = (Diversion).

To my mind, Diversion information is an example of = the 'service capability' approach - it is a generic capability which = could be used for multiple services. So, it's not sufficient anyway to = demonstrate that it is a 'bad idea for voicemail' to demonstrate that = it is a bad idea full stop.

We will presumably define many service capabilities, = upon which innovative services can be built. It will always be the case = that only users supporting the underlying service capabilities can = access the service. A UA which does not support REFER cannot = participate in a Call Transfer. The corollory is that sensible service = designers will only rely on service capabilities that they absolutely = do need. The Service Capabilities which are developed and deployed on = SIP UAs will be driven by the popularity of the Services which rely on = them.

To my mind, the capability to transport the identity = of a 'diverting' user is a useful service capability. At the very least = it can be presented to the eventual called user on a 'best effort' = basis. Services which make use of this capability have to be aware that = it will not always be present, or the Service can only be offered to = users with the Capability. The presence of the diverting identity would = mean that the call had encountered some form of Diversion, but the = absence of this information would not mean that diversion had not been = encountered. To ensure that privacy is handled correctly with respect = to this information, I'd suggest using Remote-Party-ID to carry = it.

The usefulness of explicit 'diversion reasons' is = less clear, since in a SIP network we are not restricted to the old = PSTN/ISDN diversion reasons (busy, no answer, universal, not reachable) = - there could be as many diversion reasons as there are CPL scripts, so = such information could be simply a text string.

Regards,

Mark Watson
Nortel Networks





> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonathan Rosenberg [mailto:jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com]
> Sent: 15 May 2001 08:19
> To: 'Bryan Byerly'; Igor Slepchin
> Cc: patrick.mourot@online.fr; = sip@lists.bell-labs.com;
> stlevy@cisco.com
> Subject: RE: [Sip-implementors] Re: [SIP] Draft = about diversion out of
> dat e
>
>
> Well, I've got a bunch of issues with this = draft. So, lets
> take it from the
> top.
>
> Firstly, we have a process problem. There are = now many
> implementations of
> this extension, many of them under the apparent = belief that
> this is going to
> be an IETF standard.  Indeed, there is an = I-D, which is being actively
> maintained. However, it is not a work item of = sipping or sip. To my
> knowledge, there has not been consensus to move = forward with
> CC-Diversion on
> the standards track. According to the notes = from IETF-49,
> there was only
> "medium interest", for whatever thats = worth. It doesn't have the
> draft-ietf-sip-* name. Unfortunately, many = other drafts don't
> have that
> title, and yet they are on the standards = track.  And thats
> the problem.
>
> Just because something is submitted to IETF as = an I-D, and
> maintained, does
> not mean it is on the standards track, either = through the
> working group, or
> individually (and I'll note that very few = individual drafts
> get approved on
> the standards track). In fact, a very small = fraction of the
> drafts submitted
> ever see standards track. Unfortunately, the = SIP group has
> not done a good
> job of helping the community distinguish = between documents on
> the standards
> track, and those not on the standards track. = The right way to
> do this is
> that all standards track documents are = draft-ietf-sip-*. If
> something new
> comes up that people want to make standard, we = get it on the
> charter, and
> then rev the doc with a draft-ietf-sip-* name. = Before that
> happens, the
> document is NOT ON THE STANDARDS TRACK.
>
> This process problem is not the fault of this = draft, but the
> draft appears
> to have brought it forward.
>
> My second problem is the subtle implications = this has with backwards
> compatibility and interoperability with = ISDN/ISUP systems,
> particularly
> voicemail systems. The Diversion header is = clearly just the SIP
> reincarnation of the existing redirecting = number from ISDN
> and ISUP. That,
> of course, facilitates interoperability with = ISDN/ISUP.
> However, it means
> that gateways may not properly set the = redirecting number in
> ISUP/ISDN in
> the absence of the Diversion header. Similarly, = SIP-enabled
> systems that
> look for the Diversion header to define = services may not
> function properly
> in the absence of Diversion. As a result of = that, Diversion basically
> becomes mandatory for these to work. = Unfortunately, this
> appears to have
> occurred in some implementations and = deployments already.
> Since proxies are
> the ones that insert Diversion, this means that = Diversion
> would require a
> Proxy-Require header to function. In fact, its = far more
> insidious than that.
> A UAC would need to insert a Proxy-Require in = each and every
> request, not
> because the UAC wants a service, but because = the call might possibly,
> someday, hit a downstream system which uses = Diversion.
>
> Extensions that need Proxy-Require to function = are
> effectively non-backwards
> compatible extensions. See = draft-ietf-sip-guidelines on why
> its very, very
> bad. May as well call them another protocol, = since they are
> not compatible
> with baseline SIP.
>
> Now, this problem is fixable. As Allison has = mentioned during
> IETF 50, all
> extensions henceforth MUST describe how = backwards
> compatibility operates.
> Therefore, the draft MUST describe how = gateways, voicemail
> servers, and
> anything else that looks at Diversion, would = work in its absence.
>
> However, the issue with Proxy-Require is = related to an architectural
> assumption which I strongly disagree with. The = underlying
> architectural
> assumption is that applications on behalf of = user A will
> execute on some
> system far downstream from user A. These = applications depend
> on data known
> to the proxy that serves A, and therefore this = data must be
> passed to the
> application. The Diversion header exists to = propagate this
> information. This
> is effectively a centralized service = architecture. In a more
> distributed
> system, if I want an application to run on = behalf of user A,
> I run it at the
> server which serves user A.
>
> Let me be concrete, with an example. Lets take = the
> interesting scenario
> where user X calls boss B. Boss B is not = available, so the call gets
> forwarded to the secretary S. The secretary is = S also not
> available, so the
> call is forwarded to voicemail. An application = on the
> voicemail server,
> executing on behalf of boss B and secretary S, = determines that the the
> voicemail for the boss, not the secretary, = should be dropped.
> Now, if I
> assume that this application exists in the = voicemail server,
> downstream from
> the caller, then of course some kind of = information on this
> diversion must
> be passed to the server.
>
> However, no new extension is needed if a more = distributed
> approach is taken.
> When the call reaches the proxy for B, the = application for B
> resides there.
> It proxies the call to the proxy for S, and = sets the
> Request-Disposition
> header to redirect. The proxy for S runs an = application on
> behalf of the
> secretary. This application forwards to = voicemail if the secretary is
> unavailable. Because of the = Request-Disposition, the call is
> redirected to
> voicemail rather than being proxied. This moves = control for
> the call back to
> the boss, B. The bosses application decides = instead to
> forward the call to
> the boss's voicemail, and so proxies the call = to a URI
> corresponding to the
> voicemail drop for the boss. This works just = fine, and requires no new
> extensions.
>
> Another spin on this is to view it as a feature = interaction
> problem. The
> boss wants to forward to his secretary if he is = there,
> otherwise to his own
> voicemail if the secretary is not available. = The secretary
> wants to forward
> the call to his voicemail if he's not = available. These two
> features are
> contradictory, and thus interact with each = other. Since the
> secretary and
> boss are served by (potentially) separate = proxies, we have a
> classic MUMC
> (multiple-user, multiple-component) = interaction. The
> Diversion approach is
> to assume that we can reconcile all these = interactions by
> somehow having
> "policy" at the endpoint server. This = policy knows what the right
> reconciliation is for all potential = interactions, assuming it
> has all the
> data it needs. To obtain this data (here, the = set of
> diversions), the data
> is passed from the proxies along the path to = the application.
> My concern is
> this "magical" assumption that policy = on the server will know
> the right
> thing to do in order to reconcile all feature = interactions.
>
> Rather than take this approach, a more robust = feature
> interaction approach
> is to let the feature for the boss, and the = feature for the
> secretary, run
> independently. The feature for the boss runs on = the boss's proxy (or
> application server). The feature for the = secretary runs on
> the secretary's
> proxy (or application server). The two = applications know
> nothing about each
> other, and run independently. The bosses = application runs
> first. It "wins"
> the feature interaction if it maintains control = of the call.
> The secretary's
> application "wins" if it keeps = control of the call after the
> boss forwards
> it. As a result, the reconciliation between the = features is
> determined by
> the ordering of the invocation of these two, = and the flow of
> control between
> them. This is the approach proposed by modern = feature
> interaction systems,
> such as Distributed Feature Composition (DFC) = and ECLIPSE,
> and the recent
> I-D on SERL = [draft-steenfeldt-sip-serl-fwr-00.txt]. All of
> these are based
> on the well-known "cascaded" approach = to feature interaction
> in the IN. Its
> also the same as the approach I proposed above = using
> Request-Disposition.
> There are many advantages to this approach. It = does not
> require passing
> additional information to third party = components to perform feature
> interaction reconciliation. As a result, there = are no
> security risks (since
> no information is divulged), as there are with = the Diversion approach.
> Managing the feature interactions is easy. As = new users are
> added, we don't
> need to program a single system with the = interactions between
> that user's
> features, and the features of existing users, = as we do in the
> Diversion
> approach. We do not need an extension, since no = new
> information is being
> passed between applications. The diversion = approach requires
> an extension.
>
> This distributed approach is also the one = advocated by rfc3087, and by
> draft-rosenberg-sip-app-components. RFC3087 = talked about access to SIP
> voicemail features, using the request URI as a = service identifier.
>
> So, my point here is that Diversion is needed = only under a
> very specific
> architectural model. This model has well known = feature interaction
> complications, which are resolved readily in a = more distributed model.
> Furthermore, the distributed approach is more = secure and requires no
> extension.
>
> Onto the next issue.
>
> I believe the point was made that Diversion = simplifies PSTN
> interoperability. If a request has been = diverted in the PSTN,
> we can carry
> the PSTN diversion information in SIP in the = Diversion
> headers. This way, we
> can design SIP enabled systems that provide = servers to PSTN endpoints,
> without loss of information. However, we've = talked about this
> issue for a
> long time. The SIP group has already decided = that instead of
> defining each
> ISUP/ISDN header as a SIP header, we will = encapsulate these
> PSTN messages as
> bodies, and use SIP-T. That means we can still = build SIP
> enabled systems
> that provide services to PSTN users, without = loss of
> information, yet we can
> avoid replicating each ISUP header into SIP. =
>
> OK, now to some nitty gritty issues I have with = Diversion. It
> says that the
> proxies only insert the Diversion header when = the call is
> diverted, which is
> defined as:
>
> diversion:      A = change to the ultimate destination endpoint
>          = ;           of a = request.  A change in the Request-URI of a
>          = ;           request = that was not caused by a routing decision.
>          = ;           This is = also sometimes called a deflection or
> redirection.
> A diversion can occur when the "user" = portion of the
>          = ;           = Request-URI is changed for a reason other than
>          = ;           expansion = or translation.
>
> Now, I would be really impressed if someone can = tell me how
> to program a
> proxy to know the difference between a routing = decision that
> changes the
> ultimate destination, and one that does not. In = SIP, we make
> no distinction
> between the two. So, effectively, every single = proxy or
> redirect operation
> will require the insertion of this Diversion = header. This
> means another set
> of stacked headers, of exactly the same length = as the Via
> headers. That
> significant overhead, and its additional = processing.
> Furthermore, every
> proxy would need to do it for each and every = call, since they
> don't know
> whether the ultimate recipient will need to = make use of
> Diversion to provide
> some services.
>
> The final concern I have is a "slippery = slope" argument. Effectively,
> Diversion is about encapsulating a routing = decision made at
> point A, and
> sending it to a downstream device. Right now, = Diversion
> handles routing
> decisions such as call-forward-no-answer, = call-forward-busy,
> unconditional,
> and so on. However, in practice, the logic for = a call diversion can be
> arbitrarily complex. What if its some complex = CPL script that
> caused the
> diversion? How do I represent that kind of = logic? Where do we
> draw the line?
> The problem is avoided by not trying to = transfer this kind of
> information in
> the first place. If an application requires = routing
> information on proxy A
> to function, then the application runs at = A.
>
> -Jonathan R.
>
>
>
> ---
> Jonathan D. Rosenberg, = Ph.D.           &= nbsp;    72 Eagle Rock Ave.
> Chief = Scientist          &nb= sp;           &nb= sp;      First Floor
> = dynamicsoft          &= nbsp;           &= nbsp;          East = Hanover, NJ 07936
> = jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com        &= nbsp;            = FAX:   (973) 952-5050
> http://www.jdrosen.net    &nbs= p;           &nbs= p;     PHONE: (973) 952-5000
> http://www.dynamicsoft.com
> 
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bryan Byerly [mailto:byerly@cisco.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 5:33 PM
> > To: Igor Slepchin
> > Cc: patrick.mourot@online.fr; = sip@lists.bell-labs.com;
> > sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu; = stlevy@cisco.com; byerly@cisco.com
> > Subject: [Sip-implementors] Re: [SIP] = Draft about diversion
> > out of date
> >
> >
> > Hi Igor,
> >
> > I've attached an additional example of a = scenario that you've
> > requested.
> >
> > Please see other responses inline.
> >
> > thanks for your help,
> > Bryan
> >
> > Igor Slepchin wrote:
> >
> > > > -----Original = Message-----
> > > > From: Bryan Byerly [mailto:byerly@cisco.com]
> > > >
> > > > As I presented at the December = 2000 IETF, the I-D is
> > > > motivated by several
> > > > PSTN/SIP internetworking = scenarios including:
> > >
> > > I'd like to see what internetworking = scenarios don't work
> > without it.
> >
> > I've attached one such example.
> >
> > > > Multiple diversions.
> > >
> > > Hmm, these are not really supported = by PSTN. Just as your
> > draft says, the
> > > only information available in ISDN = parameters are the
> > called party and the
> > > redirecting number. Nowhere does PSTN = remember all the
> > previous redirections
> > > like suggested by the draft.
> >
> > Actually, as the Diversion I-D points out, = most ISUP and ISDN
> > variants support
> > up to 2 redirecting numbers.  Could = you point out the part of
> > the Diversion
> > I-D that led you to believe there could be = only one?  We'd
> > need to clarify that
> > section.
> >
> > > > Diverting a call to an E.164 = service.
> > >
> > > What services is Diversion header = required for? There are
> > lots of obscure
> > > parameters in PSTN signaling; = replicating all of them in
> > SIP does not sound
> > > like a very good idea and is not = necessary for internetworking.
> >
> > The Diversion I-D is focused on answering = 2 questions for the
> > (ultimately)
> > called user agent:
> > From whom was the call diverted?
> > Why was the call diverted?
> >
> > Implementations of services such as = voicemail and night
> > service frequently
> > require this information.
> >
> > > > Configuration issues (moving = policy configuration to
> edges (UAs))
> > > >
> > > > An ultimately called UAS can use = the Diversion headers to
> > > > implement a local
> > > > policy for his particular = service.  For example, to answer
> > > > the question:
> > > > Into which voice mailbox should = a message be placed?  It's
> > > > important to
> > > > understand that this is a policy = decision; and as such should be
> > > > configurable at the ultimate = edge of the voice network (i.e.
> > > > move the smarts
> > > > to the edges).  The = examples in section 9 do cover some of
> > > > these issues.
> > >
> > > I find examples in section 9 rather = farfetched. No company
> > is ever going to
> > > have SIP addresses that look like = sip:pizza@p1.isp.com
> > (when was the last
> > > time you saw a real company with an = email account at aol.com?)
> > > Realistically, the night service = calls you mentioned will
> > be redirected to
> > > something like pizza@nightservice.com = or roses@nightservice.com.
> >
> > The example shows translation of a generic = keyword (pizza)
> > into a specific URL
> > as determined by the policy of the = "carrier".  Today's web brower
> > "carriers" already exhibit this = type of behavior today.  Try
> > typing "pizza" in
> > your web browser...  I wouldn't be = surprised if the topmost
> > hits weren't
> > somehow compensating the web browser = "carrier".  I'd imagine
> > that tomorrow's
> > VoIP carriers could base some business = models off of this idea.
> >
> > Again, please also see the attached = example below.  Perhaps
> > it will seem more
> > realistic.
> >
> > The Diversion header is merely providing = supplementary
> > information that cannot
> > always be found in any other parts of the = SIP PDU. 
> > Implementors of some
> > services (including voicemail and = nightservice) need a consistent
> > (standardized) mechanism to retrieve this = supplementary
> > information so that
> > they can apply policy decisions to it to = affect their service
> > logic.  The
> > Diversion header provides such a mechanism = and does so
> > without creating a
> > configuration burden on system = administrators of intermediate
> > gateway/routing
> > nodes.
> >
> > thanks again for your help,
> > Bryan
> >
> > Bryan J. Byerly
> > byerly@cisco.com
> >
> >
>
> = _______________________________________________
> This list is for continuing development of the = SIP protocol.
> The sip-implementor's list is the place to = discuss implementation,
> and to receive advice on understanding existing = sip.
> To subscribe to it, send mail to
> sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with = "subscribe" in the body.
>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C0DD5B.A23B1F80-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 15 16:45:58 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA06547 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 16:45:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15910443B5; Tue, 15 May 2001 16:46:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from broadsoft.com (broadsoft.com [161.58.239.68]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C6CD443A5 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 16:45:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tate ([64.243.180.244]) by broadsoft.com (8.11.2) id f4FKj7R07339; Tue, 15 May 2001 16:45:07 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: From: "Brett Tate" To: "'Steve Donovan'" , "'SIPWG Mailing List (E-mail)'" Subject: RE: [SIP] draft-ietf-sip-session-timer-04.txt Last Call Message-ID: <001701c0dd80$42abc680$2b01a8c0@broadsoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <9BF66EBF6BEFD942915B4D4D45C051F3180399@DYN-TX-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com> Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 16:47:29 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the response. More questions/comments are in the following text. > > Why can Session-Expires and Require "timer" > > be in negative re-INVITE responses since it > > is not guaranteed that re-INVITE has gotten > > to the far end? Let me know if I missed the > > sentence that would ensure that a proxy won't > > generate such a response as means to extend > > the session timer. Was it added as a means > > for a proxy to help produce a BYE quicker? > > I don't understand the concern. This does not force a BYE to > happen faster. > It might cause a re-INVITE to happen quicker, which is why we > are adding > wording about not accepting small session-timer values. [My comment about getting a BYE triggered earlier was just an attempt to try and understand why proxies can add Session-Expires in negative responses. If the proxy or UAS adds a small Session-Expires value that the UAC refuses or cannot extend, the UAC would send a BYE prior to its expiration. ] My main concern is with proxies not being explicitly discouraged from adding session extending Session-Expires to re-INVITE failure responses. A--P1--P2--B A call has been set up; P1 and P2 have record-routed; and A is required to send session extending re-invites to B. A sends re-invite. P1 returns a 503 because it is too busy. P1 SHOULD NOT return Session-Expires extending the session since P2 and B would still be timing off the previous Session-Expires. Same situation however P2 and B do not support the timer draft. P1 previously observed that P2 and B do not support the timer draft since they didn't return the Session-Expires in the 200. A sends re-INVITE. P2 returns 503 because it is too busy. P1 SHOULD NOT add the Session-Expires to the 503 because it has no clue if B is still alive. Same situation however only B does not support the timer draft. A sends a re-INVITE. B returns a negative response. P2 SHOULD NOT add the Session-Expires because P2 has no clue as to the state of the call-leg's related session at B. > > > > > Section 4 last paragraph: > > The Session-Expires immediate and Require > > "timer" looks like a kludge for UA's > > that don't add/use tags. It seems strange > > that they are current enough to implement > > timer draft but not current enough to add > > tags to the To and From. Note: the proxy > > should not add the Session-Expires immediate > > and Require "timer" for the UA since the > > proxy doesn't know the destination UA's > > reason for the reject. Please make being > > able to distinguish a re-INVITE from INVITE > > a requirement for implementing the draft. > > We can't mandate that all UAs support tags. We have added > wording that any > UA implementing the session timer draft must support From and To tags. What impact does the addition of the Session-Expires SHOULD NOT be less than 30 minutes and the new text about not accepting small session-timer values have on session-expires immediate discussed in above text? Is this an exception to the small Session-Expires rule? Since the 488 with Session-Expires only works in one direction, what does the UAC do besides send re-INVITE or eventually BYE based upon receiving a Require timer with small Session-Expires value in a 200 response? _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 15 17:17:57 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id RAA07372 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 17:17:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 101B5443A5; Tue, 15 May 2001 17:18:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from june.Broomfield1.level3.net (june.Broomfield1.Level3.net [209.245.18.7]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D27C244337 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 17:17:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from f1ee40-19.idc1.level3.com (hme0.f1ee40-19.idc1.oss.level3.com [10.1.144.204]) by june.Broomfield1.level3.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA18843 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 21:17:14 GMT From: Jon.Peterson@Level3.com Received: from n0195idc1.oss.level3.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by f1ee40-19.idc1.level3.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA15588 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 21:17:06 GMT Received: by n0195idc1.oss.level3.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 15 May 2001 15:17:05 -0600 Message-ID: <6384220893BCD411BDFE0008C791B79CA3E57E@N0228IDC1.oss.level3.com> To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [SIP] RE: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-isup-01.txt Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 15:16:56 -0600 Please note that this draft reflects the merger of draft-ietf-sip-isup-00 with draft-jfp-sip-isup-header-00. Also note that the elements of draft-ietf-sip-isup-00 dealing with overlap dialing and signaling have been removed from the new draft; a separate draft which will appear shortly focuses solely on overlap procedures. Jon Peterson Level(3) Communications -----Original Message----- From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org [mailto:Internet-Drafts@ietf.org] Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 5:02 AM Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-isup-01.txt A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Session Initiation Protocol Working Group of the IETF. Title : ISUP to SIP Mapping Author(s) : G. Camarillo, A. Roach et al. Filename : draft-ietf-sip-isup-01.txt Pages : 52 Date : 14-May-01 This document describes a way to perform the mapping between two signaling protocols: the Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) and the ISDN User Part (ISUP) of SS7. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-isup-01.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-sip-isup-01.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-isup-01.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 15 18:29:58 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id SAA08373 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 18:29:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E64D443A5; Tue, 15 May 2001 18:30:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from sapphire.int.ipverse.com (unknown [65.195.29.42]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 769CE44337 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 18:29:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from matt.ipverse.com (MATT [10.1.1.157]) by sapphire.int.ipverse.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id KDVGY76W; Tue, 15 May 2001 15:29:41 -0700 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20010515152153.02b77240@mail.ipverse.com> X-Sender: matt@mail.ipverse.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 To: Jonathan Rosenberg From: Matt Holdrege Subject: RE: [Sip-implementors] Re: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of date Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com, mankin@east.isi.edu In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 15:29:41 -0700 At 12:19 AM 5/15/2001, Jonathan Rosenberg wrote: >Now, this problem is fixable. As Allison has mentioned during IETF 50, all >extensions henceforth MUST describe how backwards compatibility operates. >Therefore, the draft MUST describe how gateways, voicemail servers, and >anything else that looks at Diversion, would work in its absence. Jonathan, you mentioned that this was not standards track. Why must we describe backwards compatibility with any old draft-yournamehere-sip-xxx.txt document? I hope that was not the intention of the Allison since that could kill some efforts. We should only be concerned about backwards compatibility with real standards track RFC's. If people choose to implement independent drafts, they do so knowing that it isn't standard. The rest of the community shouldn't have to suffer compliance with that random draft. If the SIP WG didn't do a good job of communicating the IETF process to implementors, future work shouldn't have to suffer. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 15 18:35:57 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id SAA08431 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 18:35:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29CB9443A5; Tue, 15 May 2001 18:36:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from sapphire.int.ipverse.com (unknown [65.195.29.42]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35DFC44337 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 18:35:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from matt.ipverse.com (MATT [10.1.1.157]) by sapphire.int.ipverse.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id KDVGY77M; Tue, 15 May 2001 15:35:09 -0700 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20010515153327.02b73d90@mail.ipverse.com> X-Sender: matt@mail.ipverse.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 To: infovaan@lycos.com, "SIP List" From: Matt Holdrege Subject: Re: [SIP] SIP MGCP i/w In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 15:35:10 -0700 At 09:10 AM 5/15/2001, Info Van wrote: >hi, > >in the SIP FAQ (http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~hgs/sip/faq.cgi) the answer to >"Q. What is the relationship between MGCP and SIP?" >islepchin@dynamicsoft.com writes that "The details of combining the two in >a system are still being fleshed out"... > >is this still true, i mean are they still being fleshed out, or some >document (draft maybe) is available to help with the interworking ? Why is such a document needed? This is not something that needs standardization, especially at this stage. Anyone can build an IWF that speaks MGCP out one interface and SIP out another. How they choose to make sense of each message is up to them. Let's not try to reproduce Q.699. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 16 01:57:52 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id BAA18962 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 01:57:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91E8E44337; Wed, 16 May 2001 01:57:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from albatross-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se (albatross-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [194.237.142.116]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5BAA44336 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 01:56:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fogerty.lmf.ericsson.se (fogerty.lmf.ericsson.se [131.160.11.6]) by albatross.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.11.0/8.11.0/WIREfire-1.3) with ESMTP id f4G5uhN06039; Wed, 16 May 2001 07:56:43 +0200 (MEST) Received: from lmf.ericsson.se (E005004B52C74.lmf.ericsson.se [131.160.30.161]) by fogerty.lmf.ericsson.se (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4G5ugJ18384; Wed, 16 May 2001 08:56:42 +0300 (EET DST) Message-ID: <3B02168F.28E41E5C@lmf.ericsson.se> From: Christer Holmberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Steve Donovan Cc: brett@broadsoft.com, sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: Re: [SIP] Session timer considered harmful (was RE: draft-ietf-sip-session- timer: refresh rate) References: <9BF66EBF6BEFD942915B4D4D45C051F318039D@DYN-TX-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------8CDDC0B4306CEB64B56EAC1B" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 08:56:31 +0300 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------8CDDC0B4306CEB64B56EAC1B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, >>Hi, >> >>Some comments. >> >>>>1) A method for a proxy or UAS to reject a session timer >>>>request because the >>>>session timer value is too small. This is needed for both >>>>approaches, so >>>>should not be controversial. I would propose that we use the >>>>488 response >>>>with a reason phrase of Session Timer Too Small (or something >>>>similar). I >>>>would also propose that the session-expires header be used in >>>>this response >>>>to indicate the minimal acceptable session timer value. >>>>(Note: I'm trying >>>>to reuse an existing response instead of creating a new one. We can >>>>certainly create a new one, if there is consensus to do so). >>>Reusing 488 is fine, but the current bis definition >>>only reflects that SDP is the problem instead of >>>potentially the headers. >>> >>>Reusing Session-Expires in the 488 is fine, but it >>>would potentially cause confusion with the fact >>>that currently Session-Expires in a negative response >>>will still reset session timer. [However as I've >>>mentioned previously, I wish negative response >>>couldn't extend sessions since a proxy could have >>>generated the negative response instead of the UAS.] >> >>[Christer]: I would still vote for a specific 4xx code. It is then >>possible to specify specific actions, by nodes supporting the >>session-timer, to be taken when it arrives, ie that the >>Session-Expires >>header would have a special meaning. > >This can be achieved by using the combination of the 488 and the presence of >a session-expires header. True. >>>>2) We change the session-expires header to only support delta >>>>times with a >>>>granularity of minutes. I think there is consensus that >>>>session-expires >>>>values of less than one minute are not needed. >>> >>>Keeping granularity in seconds is fine with me. >>>I'm more concerned about the minimum Session-Expires >>>value. >>> >>>>3) We add stronger wording in the security section of the >>>>draft describing >>>>the smurf attack that Jonathan is worried about. As part of >>>>the wording, we >>>>add the statement that entities supporting session timer >>>>SHOULD support a >>>>minimum time of n minutes. I propose we take Jonathan's >>>>suggestion and make >>>>n = 30. The obvious difference here is that Jonathan's >>>>suggestion becomes a >>>>SHOULD instead of a MUST. >>> >>>I prefer that Session-Expires MUST NOT be less than >>>2 minutes. This helps accommodate for the retries of >>>200 and INVITE over UDP to get the session extended. >>>I'd actually prefer a higher value, but I assume >>>that some would be uncomfortable with the >>>"MUST NOT" part of the text if the value was higher. >>> >>>In addition to the MUST NOT be less than 2 minutes, >>>I prefer the draft state that Session-Expires >>>SHOULD NOT be less 30 minutes for SIP messaging >>>that traverses a public network. >>> >>>Based on the recommendation of sending refreshers >>>after 1/2 Session-Expires, the Session-Expires >>>triggered re-INVITEs MUST NOT occur more often >>>than every minute and SHOULD NOT occur more often >>>than every 15 minutes. >>> >>>It might also be beneficial to mention in the draft >>>that support of the Session-Expires can lead to >>>more re-INVITE collisions, especially if the >>>Session-Expires value is small. >> >>[Christer] I am still against the MUST NOT for the time value. If we >>define a 4xx (or if we use 488), with the Session-Expires >>header telling the minimum value, there is no need to specify a minimum value in the >>standard. It's then up to the operator/network provider to specify a >>minimum value for his network, and configure the nodes to not accept any >>value below that. > >I agree. The current plan is for the next revision of the draft to contain >that the session timer value SHOULD NOT be less than 30 minutes. That sounds fine. Also, like you mentioned, we should explain in the draft the disadvantages of using a low value, and why it is recommended not to use a value less than 30 minutes. Otherwise we will soon have the same kind of discussion on the list again. Regards, Christer Holmberg Ericsson Finland > > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer Holmberg > > Ericsson Finland > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > > > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > > > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > > > To subscribe to it, send mail to > > > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" > > in the body. > > --------------8CDDC0B4306CEB64B56EAC1B Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="christer.holmberg.vcf" Content-Description: Card for Christer Holmberg Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="christer.holmberg.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit begin:vcard n:Holmberg;Christer tel;cell:+358-40-5604412 tel;work:+358-9-2992943 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Ericsson;IP Multimedia / Advanced Signalling Research Laboratory adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 email;internet:christer.holmberg@lmf.ericsson.se title:System Designer fn:Christer Holmberg end:vcard --------------8CDDC0B4306CEB64B56EAC1B-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 16 10:50:59 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA10696 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 10:50:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3408A44337; Wed, 16 May 2001 10:51:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mailcity.com (fes.whowhere.com [209.185.123.154]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 5D62B44336 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 10:50:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by mailcity.com; Wed May 16 07:50:39 2001 To: "Eric Burger" , "SIP List" From: "Info Van" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off Reply-To: infovaan@lycos.com X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: RE: [SIP] SIP MGCP i/w X-Sender-Ip: 207.31.112.126 Organization: Lycos Mail (http://mail.lycos.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Language: en Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 10:50:39 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thanks for the insight, and the counter-questions have made me think as to why we might need such a document. yes, it is a gateway in question. firstly, i am little more than uninitiated about H323, and only a little more welloff about SIP, so while going thru the SIP-H323 i/w draft, i came up with this idea of SIP-MGCP draft. i know, there could be similar situation in case of SIP-ISUP and SIP-Q931 i/w, but obviously they are very simple looking, but it gets a little more involved when you have to map "Information Elements"... obviously, not all IE's would make sense one a call-signal enters from ISUP/ISDN to SIP... so which to drop, which to keep or re-map. easy answer i believe is -- keep the mandatory (as they are mandatory) and think about optionals... is that how people are implementing ? is it totally on a case-by-case basis, and is this where people/vendors are trying to be competetive -- by differntiating they way they i/w (and to what extent they i/w ??) thanks for any further insight... still my basic question is, why do we need SIP-H323 i/w draft, and not SIP-MGCP i/w draft. one reason i can think of right away is that SIP and MGCP are not mutually-exclusive, rather perform complementary functions, which SIP/H323 are alternatives (to a great extent) of each other ? am i right or wrong ? thanks, iv. -- On Wed, 16 May 2001 10:20:00 Eric Burger wrote: >What would you try to accomplish? Is it a gateway, as Matt mentioned, or something else? > >-----Original Message----- >From: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com >[mailto:sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com]On Behalf Of Info Van >Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 12:10 PM >To: SIP List >Subject: [SIP] SIP MGCP i/w > > >hi, > >in the SIP FAQ (http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~hgs/sip/faq.cgi) the answer to "Q. What is the relationship between MGCP and SIP?" islepchin@dynamicsoft.com writes that "The details of combining the two in a system are still being fleshed out"... > >is this still true, i mean are they still being fleshed out, or some document (draft maybe) is available to help with the interworking ? > >thanks, >iv. > > >Get 250 color business cards for FREE! >http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/ > >_______________________________________________ >This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. >The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, >and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. >To subscribe to it, send mail to >sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > > Get 250 color business cards for FREE! http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/ _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 16 10:56:58 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA10831 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 10:56:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2988443D4; Wed, 16 May 2001 10:57:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mailcity.com (fes.whowhere.com [209.185.123.154]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A5852443D3 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 10:56:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by mailcity.com; Wed May 16 07:56:22 2001 To: "SIP List" , "Matt Holdrege" From: "Info Van" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off Reply-To: infovaan@lycos.com X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [SIP] SIP MGCP i/w X-Sender-Ip: 207.31.112.126 Organization: Lycos Mail (http://mail.lycos.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Language: en Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 10:56:22 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hi matt, >>"Q. What is the relationship between MGCP and SIP?" ... >>document (draft maybe) is available to help with the interworking ? >Why is such a document needed? This is not something that needs >standardization, especially at this stage. Anyone can build an IWF that >speaks MGCP out one interface and SIP out another. How they choose to make >sense of each message is up to them. Let's not try to reproduce Q.699. do you think the DSS1/ISUP I/W document was unnecessary or not upto it's mark ? why i am asking this is because, i need to ascertain and justify to me and my peers that the task that's assigned to me, is really not worth "standardization effort". any arguments would help. thanks, iv. Get 250 color business cards for FREE! http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/ _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 16 11:42:57 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA11894 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 11:42:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C7D54439F; Wed, 16 May 2001 11:43:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 595CA44336 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 11:42:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id LAA02508; Wed, 16 May 2001 11:45:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 16 May 2001 11:42:03 -0400 Message-ID: <9BF66EBF6BEFD942915B4D4D45C051F31803AD@DYN-TX-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com> From: Steve Donovan To: "'Christer Holmberg'" , Steve Donovan Cc: brett@broadsoft.com, sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] Session timer considered harmful (was RE: draft-ietf- sip-session- timer: refresh rate) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 11:41:53 -0400 > -----Original Message----- > From: Christer Holmberg [mailto:christer.holmberg@lmf.ericsson.se] > Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 12:57 AM > To: Steve Donovan > Cc: brett@broadsoft.com; sip@lists.bell-labs.com > Subject: Re: [SIP] Session timer considered harmful (was RE: > draft-ietf-sip-session- timer: refresh rate) > > >>[Christer] I am still against the MUST NOT for the time value. If we > >>define a 4xx (or if we use 488), with the Session-Expires > >>header telling the minimum value, there is no need to > specify a minimum value in the > >>standard. It's then up to the operator/network provider to specify a > >>minimum value for his network, and configure the nodes to > not accept any > >>value below that. > > > >I agree. The current plan is for the next revision of the > draft to contain > >that the session timer value SHOULD NOT be less than 30 minutes. > > That sounds fine. > > Also, like you mentioned, we should explain in the draft the > disadvantages of using a low value, and why it is recommended > not to use > a value less than 30 minutes. Otherwise we will soon have the > same kind > of discussion on the list again. Agreed. > > Regards, > > Christer Holmberg > Ericsson Finland > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Christer Holmberg > > > Ericsson Finland > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > > > > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss > implementation, > > > > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > > > > To subscribe to it, send mail to > > > > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" > > > in the body. > > > > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 16 12:10:03 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA12735 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 12:10:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AFF2443B3; Wed, 16 May 2001 12:10:08 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com [161.44.11.97]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E5B444336 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 12:09:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dingdong.cisco.com (dingdong.cisco.com [64.102.17.16]) by rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id f4GG84X06917; Wed, 16 May 2001 12:08:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cisco.com (rtp-xdm3.cisco.com [64.102.17.82]) by dingdong.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id AGQ04107 (AUTH byerly); Wed, 16 May 2001 12:09:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B02A61D.57DE8DCE@cisco.com> From: Bryan Byerly X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51C-CISCOENG [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathan Rosenberg Cc: stlevy@cisco.com, byerly@cisco.com, ISlepchin@dynamicsoft.com, patrick_mourot@online.fr, sip@lists.bell-labs.com References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------2CDF2736D693E58EADEFEE28" Subject: [SIP] Re: [Sip-implementors] Discussion about Diversion Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 12:09:03 -0400 --------------2CDF2736D693E58EADEFEE28 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jonathan, Thank you for your responses. I appreciate discussion on the Diversion I-D. Comments are in-line. Jonathan Rosenberg wrote: > The Diversion header is clearly just the SIP > reincarnation of the existing redirecting number from ISDN and ISUP. That, > of course, facilitates interoperability with ISDN/ISUP. However, it means > that gateways may not properly set the redirecting number in ISUP/ISDN in > the absence of the Diversion header. Similarly, SIP-enabled systems that > look for the Diversion header to define services may not function properly > in the absence of Diversion. As a result of that, Diversion basically > becomes mandatory for these to work. I think you've just made the case for the Diversion header. ;^) > Since proxies are > the ones that insert Diversion, this means that Diversion would require a > Proxy-Require header to function. A small nit, both proxies and user agent servers end up inserting the Diversion header. Smart user agent servers are able to implement call forward services locally (without any assistance from a proxy). There are examples of both (proxy and UAS) diversion scenarios in Section 7 of the Diversion I-D. I agree that Proxy-Require headers are an evil source of protocol incompatability. However, in the instance of the Diversion header, no Proxy-Require header is needed. The Diversion header is supplemental information. If a SIP proxy involved in a PSTN call doesn't add it, the worst that will happen is that the customer expected behavior may not occur and customers may complain until such time that the expected behavior is achieved. > Extensions that need Proxy-Require to function are effectively non-backwards > compatible extensions. See draft-ietf-sip-guidelines on why its very, very > bad. May as well call them another protocol, since they are not compatible > with baseline SIP. Again, this is a strawman argument. Although I agree that Proxy-Require headers cause compatability problems, Diversion does not require use of a Proxy-Require header. > Now, this problem is fixable. As Allison has mentioned during IETF 50, all > extensions henceforth MUST describe how backwards compatibility operates. > Therefore, the draft MUST describe how gateways, voicemail servers, and > anything else that looks at Diversion, would work in its absence. So, the backward compatibilty issue is that this supplemental information was not provided in the past. Thus, services relying on this supplemental information didn't work in the past. To summarize, there appear to be two models. In the first model, (voicemail) service policy is controlled at the user-agent server (Diversion I-D). In the second model, (voicemail) service policy is controlled at intermediate SIP proxies or gateways (RFC3087). In SIP-only networks or small networks, where the SIP/PSTN gateway, SIP proxy, and SIP voicemail server are all owned and administrated by the same domain, either model can work. However, as networks scale up, ownership and connectivity of the devices spreads out. Here's an example that causes problems for RFC3087, but is simply solved by supporting Diversion: ===================== Scenario 1: Off-net diversion ===================== In the following ladder diagram, a call is placed from the PSTN to 5551234 which hangs off of the 555xxxx PBX. The Call Forward No Answer (CFNA) timer expires in the PBX, and the PBX diverts the call to the user's admin/secretary at 5551001. The secretary's phone is busy, so the PBX diverts the call through the local PSTN/SIP gateway and SIP proxy to the voicemail service with which the enterprise has contracted, in this case a SIP voicemail service. The SIP proxy performs an (ENUM) lookup of 9231000 which resolves to 3.3.3.3. When the call reaches the voicemail server, the message may be deposited into a voice mailbox for 5551234, 5551000, or both depending on the configured policy. In addition, in practice one would normally encounter scenarios where the SIP proxy is owned by a carrier and the voicemail server by a third party. In this example, usage of the Diversion header allows voicemail service policy to be changed (by the voicemail provider) without requiring changes in the carrier's equipment. RFC3087 approach: -------------- Voicemail policy configuration-++ || || \/ |<---------carrier A-------->|<-Voicemail vendor X->| (555xxxx) (9231000) (1.1.1.1) (2.2.2.2) (3.3.3.3) PSTN PBX GW SIP Proxy SIP voicemail server | | | | | |--Setup---------->| | | | | called:5551234 | | | | | | | | | |<-Call Proceeding-| | | | | | | | | |<-Alerting--------| | | | | | | | | | CFNA timer expires | | | | | | | | | ----| | | | | / Call presented to 5551001 (admin) | | \ | | | | | ---->| | | | | busy | | | | | | | | | |--Setup--->| | | | | called: 9231000 | | | | 1st Redirection: 5551234 | | | | reason=cfna | | | | 2nd Redirection: 5551001 | | | | reason=cfb | | | | counter=2 | | | | | | | | | |--INVITE ------>| | | |(Request-URI) sip:9231000_cfb_5551001@2.2.2.2;user=phone | | | To: 9231000@1.1.1.1 | | | | | | | | routing lookup (eg. ENUM) | | | (9231000->3.3.3.3) | | | | | | | | |--INVITE ---->| | | | (Request-URI) sip:9231000_cfb_5551001@3.3.3.3 | | | | To: 9231000@1.1.1.1 | | | | | | | | |<-200---------| | | |<-200-----------| | | | |--ACK------------------------->| | |<-Connect--| | | |<-Connect---------| | | | | | | | | In this approach, every carrier's PSTN/SIP GW would need to be configured with voicemail vendor X's service policy. For N voicemail service vendors, there would need to be (at least) N policy rules in each PSTN/SIP GW. Assuming voicemail service policy which is configurable per-user, there would be the sum (from 1 to NumVoicemailVendors) of the number of users of each voicemail vendor: NumVoicemailVendors -- \ NumUsers(i) / -- i=1 As the number of (voicemail) service vendors increases, the complexity of this policy configuration at _every_ PSTN/SIP GW increases. Diversion I-D approach: ------------------ Voicemail policy configuration----------------------------------++ || || \/ |<---------carrier A--------->|<-Voicemail vendor X->| (555xxxx) (9231000) (1.1.1.1) (2.2.2.2) (3.3.3.3) PSTN PBX GW SIP Proxy SIP voicemail server | | | | | |--Setup---------->| | | | | called:5551234 | | | | | | | | | |<-Call Proceeding-| | | | | | | | | |<-Alerting--------| | | | | | | | | | CFNA timer expires | | | | | | | | | ----| | | | | / Call presented to 5551001 (admin) | | \ | | | | | ---->| | | | | busy | | | | | | | | | |--Setup--->| | | | | called: 9231000 | | | | 1st Redirection: 5551234 | | | | reason=cfna | | | | 2nd Redirection: 5551001 | | | | reason=cfb | | | | counter=2 | | | | | | | | | |--INVITE ----------------------->| | |(Request-URI) sip:9231000@2.2.2.2;user=phone | | | To: 9231000@1.1.1.1 | | | Diversion: ;reason=cfb, | | | ;reason=cfna | | | | | | | | routing lookup (eg. ENUM) | | | (9231000->3.3.3.3) | | | | | | | | | |--INVITE ------>| | | | (Request-URI) sip:3.3.3.3;user=ip | | | | To: 9231000@1.1.1.1 | | | | Diversion: ;reason=cfb, | | | | ;reason=cfna | | | | | | | | |<-200-----------| | | |<-200-----------| | | | |--ACK--------------------------->| | |<-Connect--| | | |<-Connect---------| | | | | | | | | With this approach, no policy configuration in the SIP GW or SIP proxy is needed. Each voicemail service vendor locally configures the desired policy. ==================================== Scenario 2: Diversion to Off-net voicemail server ==================================== In the following ladder diagram, a call is placed from a SIP user agent (UA1) to 5551111. The SIP proxy resolves this to another SIP user agent (UA2). The Call Forward No Answer (CFNA) timer expires in the SIP proxy, and the SIP proxy diverts the call to the user's admin/secretary at 5551112. The secretary's phone is busy, so the SIP proxy diverts the call through the local SIP/PSTN gateway to a PSTN voicemail service. When the call reaches the voicemail server, the message may be deposited into a voice mailbox for 5551234, 5551000, or both depending on the configured policy. In addition, in practice one would normally encounter scenarios where the SIP proxy and SIP GW is owned by a carrier and the voicemail server by a third party. In this example, usage of the Diversion header allows voicemail service policy to be changed (by the voicemail provider) without requiring changes in the carrier's equipment. RFC3087 approach: -------------- Voicemail policy configuration---++ || || \/ |<---------carrier A--------->|<-Voicemail vendor X->| (666xxxx) (5551111) (5551112) (1.1.1.1) (2.2.2.2) UA1 UA2 UAS3 SIP Proxy SIP/PSTN GW PSTN voicemail server | | | | | | |--INVITE ---------------------->| | | | sip:5551111@1.1.1.1;user=phone | | | | | | | | |<-INVITE----------------| | | | | sip:5551111@UA2;user=phone | | | | | | | | | |--180------------------>| | | | | | | | | |<-180---------------------------| | | | | | | | | | | | CFNA timer expires | | | | | | | | | | |<-INVITE------| | | | | | sip:5551112@UA3;user=phone | | | | | | | | | | |--486-------->| | | | | | CFBusy | | | | | |--INVITE----->| | | | | | sip:6661112@2.2.2.2;user=phone | | | | | | | | | | | |-Setup----------->| | | | | | called:6661112 | | | | | | | | | | | |<-Call Proceeding-| | | | | |<-Alerting--------| | | | |<-180---------| | |<-180---------------------------| | | | | | | |<-Connect---------| | | | |<-200---------| | |<-200---------------------------| | | |--ACK----------------------------------------->| | Here's a second call, using the same voicemail server: Voicemail policy configuration---++ || || \/ |<---------carrier A-------->|<-Voicemail vendor X->| (666xxxx) (1.1.1.1) (2.2.2.2) UA3 UA4 UAS5 SIP Proxy SIP/PSTN GW PSTN voicemail server | | | | | | |--INVITE ---------------------->| | | | sip:5551114@1.1.1.1;user=phone | | | | | | | | |<-INVITE----------------| | | | | sip:5551114@UA4;user=phone | | | | | | | | | |--180------------------>| | | | | | | | | |<-180---------------------------| | | | | | | | | | | | CFNA timer expires | | | | | | | | | | |<-INVITE------| | | | | | sip:5551115@UA3;user=phone | | | | | | | | | | |--486-------->| | | | | | CFBusy | | | | | |--INVITE----->| | | | | | sip:6661115@2.2.2.2;user=phone | | | | | | | | | | | |-Setup----------->| | | | | | called:6661115 | | | | | | | | | | | |<-Call Proceeding-| | | | | |<-Alerting--------| | | | |<-180---------| | |<-180---------------------------| | | | | | | |<-Connect---------| | | | |<-200---------| | |<-200---------------------------| | | |--ACK----------------------------------------->| | In this approach, the voicemail server must own a block of E.164 numbers (one per subscriber). For N voicemail service subscribers, the voicemail server would need to own N E.164 numbers. As the numbers of subscribers increases, this may become a significant cost-issue for the voicemail service vendor. Also notice that, in this approach, voicemail service policy is configured in the carrier's SIP proxy. Diversion I-D approach: ------------------ Voicemail policy configuration------------------------------------++ || || \/ |<---------carrier A------->|<-Voicemail vendor->| (66622222) (5551111) (5551112) (1.1.1.1) (2.2.2.2) UA1 UA2 UAS3 SIP Proxy SIP/PSTN GW PSTN voicemail server | | | | | | |--INVITE ---------------------->| | | | sip:5551111@1.1.1.1;user=phone | | | | | | | | |<-INVITE----------------| | | | | sip:5551111@UA2;user=phone | | | | | | | | | | | CFNA timer expires | | | | | | | | | | |<-INVITE------| | | | | | sip:5551112@UA3;user=phone | | | | | Diversion: ;reason=cfna | | | | | | | | |--486-------->| | | | | | CFBusy | | | | | |--INVITE----->| | | | | | sip:6662222@2.2.2.2;user=phone | | | | | Diversion: ;reason=cfb, | | | | ;reason=cfna | | | | | | | | | | |-Setup----------->| | | | | | called:6662222 | | | | | | 1st Redirection: 5551111 | | | | | 2nd Redirection: 5551112 | | | | | | | | | | |<-Connect---------| | | | | |<-Call Proceeding-| | | | | |<-Alerting--------| | | | |<-180---------| | |<-180---------------------------| | | | | | | |<-Connect---------| | | | |<-200---------| | |<-200---------------------------| | | |--ACK----------------------------------------->| | With this approach, the voicemail vendor only needs one E.164 number and no policy configuration in the carrier's SIP GW or SIP proxy is needed. Each voicemail service vendor locally configures the desired policy. * I would really appreciate voicemail vendors (and voicemail equipment manufacturers) speaking up on this issue. Are you actually willing to depend on your carrier to configure your service policy (per RFC3087)? Are you willing to wait for your carrier to deploy equipment that can configure the service policy? When your carrier misconfigures your service policy, who will your customers blame? What incentive will the carrier have to fix the problem in a timely fashion? Wouldn't you rather be in control of your own policy (using a mechanism such as the Diversion I-D)? * I would also appreciate feedback from carriers (and carrier equipment manufacturers). Per RFC3087, do you really want to have to change the policy in all of your domain's border (GW and proxy) nodes everytime a third-party (voicemail) service customer wants to change a service policy for one of their customers? What incentive do you have to update this policy in a timely manner? What incentive do you have to deploy equipment to support third-party policy configuration? Wouldn't you rather the (voicemail) service vendors just manage their own policy (using a mechanism such as the Diversion I-D)? > Onto the next issue. > > I believe the point was made that Diversion simplifies PSTN > interoperability. If a request has been diverted in the PSTN, we can carry > the PSTN diversion information in SIP in the Diversion headers. This way, we > can design SIP enabled systems that provide servers to PSTN endpoints, > without loss of information. However, we've talked about this issue for a > long time. The SIP group has already decided that instead of defining each > ISUP/ISDN header as a SIP header, we will encapsulate these PSTN messages as > bodies, and use SIP-T. That means we can still build SIP enabled systems > that provide services to PSTN users, without loss of information, yet we can > avoid replicating each ISUP header into SIP. If PSTN calls use SIP only for backbone signalling, the SIP-T encapsulation approach is fine. However, when terminating SIP calls on PSTN networks, or PSTN calls on SIP networks, a translative approach is needed to achieve the expected behavior. Although I'm not advocating replicating every ISUP header in SIP, I don't see anything wrong with using equivalent (or a superset) of functionality of useful ISUP headers. A case-by-case approach seems appropriate to me. Regardless, this draft's sole focus is Diversion information. > OK, now to some nitty gritty issues I have with Diversion. It says that the > proxies only insert the Diversion header when the call is diverted, which is > defined as: > > diversion: A change to the ultimate destination endpoint > of a request. A change in the Request-URI of a > request that was not caused by a routing decision. > This is also sometimes called a deflection or > redirection. > A diversion can occur when the "user" portion of the > Request-URI is changed for a reason other than > expansion or translation. > > Now, I would be really impressed if someone can tell me how to program a > proxy to know the difference between a routing decision that changes the > ultimate destination, and one that does not. In SIP, we make no distinction > between the two. One suggestion is to apply the same algorithm that we use for spiral loop detection. If the user portion of the (sip:user@host) URL does not change, then consider it a simple routing decision (that does not require a Diversion header). If the user portion of the (sip:user@host) URL does change, then add a Diversion header. > So, effectively, every single proxy or redirect operation > will require the insertion of this Diversion header. This means another set > of stacked headers, of exactly the same length as the Via headers. That > significant overhead, and its additional processing. Furthermore, every > proxy would need to do it for each and every call, since they don't know > whether the ultimate recipient will need to make use of Diversion to provide > some services. As I've described above, this argument does not apply. If the user portion of the URL changes, add a Diversion header. If the user portion of the URL doesn't change, don't add a Diversion header. > The final concern I have is a "slippery slope" argument. Effectively, > Diversion is about encapsulating a routing decision made at point A, and > sending it to a downstream device. Right now, Diversion handles routing > decisions such as call-forward-no-answer, call-forward-busy, unconditional, > and so on. However, in practice, the logic for a call diversion can be > arbitrarily complex. What if its some complex CPL script that caused the > diversion? How do I represent that kind of logic? Where do we draw the line? If several features such as CFB, CFNA, CFTOD are defined in one CPL script, then the script would be capable of marking any one of 3 reasons (cfb, cfna, cftod) depending on which scenario was encountered. If the script truly has a new reason, then define a new reason code. This argument is akin to asking how many response codes should be defined in SIP. The answer is to define the ones that you need, and don't define any more than you need. thanks for your help, Bryan Bryan J. Byerly byerly@cisco.com > -Jonathan R. > > --- > Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 72 Eagle Rock Ave. > Chief Scientist First Floor > dynamicsoft East Hanover, NJ 07936 > jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 > http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 > http://www.dynamicsoft.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bryan Byerly [mailto:byerly@cisco.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 5:33 PM > > To: Igor Slepchin > > Cc: patrick.mourot@online.fr; sip@lists.bell-labs.com; > > sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu; stlevy@cisco.com; byerly@cisco.com > > Subject: [Sip-implementors] Re: [SIP] Draft about diversion > > out of date > > > > > > Hi Igor, > > > > I've attached an additional example of a scenario that you've > > requested. > > > > Please see other responses inline. > > > > thanks for your help, > > Bryan > > > > Igor Slepchin wrote: > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Bryan Byerly [mailto:byerly@cisco.com] > > > > > > > > As I presented at the December 2000 IETF, the I-D is > > > > motivated by several > > > > PSTN/SIP internetworking scenarios including: > > > > > > I'd like to see what internetworking scenarios don't work > > without it. > > > > I've attached one such example. > > > > > > Multiple diversions. > > > > > > Hmm, these are not really supported by PSTN. Just as your > > draft says, the > > > only information available in ISDN parameters are the > > called party and the > > > redirecting number. Nowhere does PSTN remember all the > > previous redirections > > > like suggested by the draft. > > > > Actually, as the Diversion I-D points out, most ISUP and ISDN > > variants support > > up to 2 redirecting numbers. Could you point out the part of > > the Diversion > > I-D that led you to believe there could be only one? We'd > > need to clarify that > > section. > > > > > > Diverting a call to an E.164 service. > > > > > > What services is Diversion header required for? There are > > lots of obscure > > > parameters in PSTN signaling; replicating all of them in > > SIP does not sound > > > like a very good idea and is not necessary for internetworking. > > > > The Diversion I-D is focused on answering 2 questions for the > > (ultimately) > > called user agent: > > From whom was the call diverted? > > Why was the call diverted? > > > > Implementations of services such as voicemail and night > > service frequently > > require this information. > > > > > > Configuration issues (moving policy configuration to edges (UAs)) > > > > > > > > An ultimately called UAS can use the Diversion headers to > > > > implement a local > > > > policy for his particular service. For example, to answer > > > > the question: > > > > Into which voice mailbox should a message be placed? It's > > > > important to > > > > understand that this is a policy decision; and as such should be > > > > configurable at the ultimate edge of the voice network (i.e. > > > > move the smarts > > > > to the edges). The examples in section 9 do cover some of > > > > these issues. > > > > > > I find examples in section 9 rather farfetched. No company > > is ever going to > > > have SIP addresses that look like sip:pizza@p1.isp.com > > (when was the last > > > time you saw a real company with an email account at aol.com?) > > > Realistically, the night service calls you mentioned will > > be redirected to > > > something like pizza@nightservice.com or roses@nightservice.com. > > > > The example shows translation of a generic keyword (pizza) > > into a specific URL > > as determined by the policy of the "carrier". Today's web brower > > "carriers" already exhibit this type of behavior today. Try > > typing "pizza" in > > your web browser... I wouldn't be surprised if the topmost > > hits weren't > > somehow compensating the web browser "carrier". I'd imagine > > that tomorrow's > > VoIP carriers could base some business models off of this idea. > > > > Again, please also see the attached example below. Perhaps > > it will seem more > > realistic. > > > > The Diversion header is merely providing supplementary > > information that cannot > > always be found in any other parts of the SIP PDU. > > Implementors of some > > services (including voicemail and nightservice) need a consistent > > (standardized) mechanism to retrieve this supplementary > > information so that > > they can apply policy decisions to it to affect their service > > logic. The > > Diversion header provides such a mechanism and does so > > without creating a > > configuration burden on system administrators of intermediate > > gateway/routing > > nodes. > > > > thanks again for your help, > > Bryan > > > > Bryan J. Byerly > > byerly@cisco.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. --------------2CDF2736D693E58EADEFEE28 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jonathan,

Thank you for your responses.  I appreciate discussion on the Diversion I-D.  Comments are in-line.

Jonathan Rosenberg wrote:

<snip>

The Diversion header is clearly just the SIP
reincarnation of the existing redirecting number from ISDN and ISUP. That,
of course, facilitates interoperability with ISDN/ISUP. However, it means
that gateways may not properly set the redirecting number in ISUP/ISDN in
the absence of the Diversion header. Similarly, SIP-enabled systems that
look for the Diversion header to define services may not function properly
in the absence of Diversion. As a result of that, Diversion basically
becomes mandatory for these to work.
I think you've just made the case for the Diversion header.  ;^)
 Since proxies are
the ones that insert Diversion, this means that Diversion would require a
Proxy-Require header to function.
A small nit, both proxies and user agent servers end up inserting the Diversion header.  Smart user agent servers are able to implement call forward services locally (without any assistance from a proxy).  There are examples of both (proxy and UAS) diversion scenarios in Section 7 of the Diversion I-D.

I agree that Proxy-Require headers are an evil source of protocol incompatability.  However, in the instance of the Diversion header, no Proxy-Require header is needed.  The Diversion header is supplemental information.  If a SIP proxy involved in a PSTN call doesn't add it, the worst that will happen is that the customer expected behavior may not occur and customers may complain until such time that the expected behavior is achieved.

<snip>

Extensions that need Proxy-Require to function are effectively non-backwards
compatible extensions. See draft-ietf-sip-guidelines on why its very, very
bad. May as well call them another protocol, since they are not compatible
with baseline SIP.
Again, this is a strawman argument.  Although I agree that Proxy-Require headers cause compatability problems, Diversion does not require use of a Proxy-Require header.
Now, this problem is fixable. As Allison has mentioned during IETF 50, all
extensions henceforth MUST describe how backwards compatibility operates.
Therefore, the draft MUST describe how gateways, voicemail servers, and
anything else that looks at Diversion, would work in its absence.
So, the backward compatibilty issue is that this supplemental information was not provided in the past.  Thus, services relying on this supplemental information didn't work in the past.

<snip>

To summarize, there appear to be two models.  In the first model, (voicemail) service policy is controlled at the user-agent server (Diversion I-D).  In the second model, (voicemail) service policy is controlled at intermediate SIP proxies or gateways (RFC3087).  In SIP-only networks or small networks, where the SIP/PSTN gateway, SIP proxy, and SIP voicemail server are all owned and administrated by the same domain, either model can work.

However, as networks scale up, ownership and connectivity of the devices spreads out.  Here's an example that causes problems for RFC3087, but is simply solved by supporting Diversion:

=====================
Scenario 1: Off-net diversion
=====================

In the following ladder diagram, a call is placed from the PSTN to 5551234 which hangs off of the 555xxxx PBX.  The Call Forward No Answer (CFNA) timer expires in the PBX, and the PBX diverts the call to the user's admin/secretary at 5551001.  The secretary's phone is busy, so the PBX diverts the call through the local PSTN/SIP gateway and SIP proxy to the voicemail service with which the enterprise has contracted, in this case a SIP voicemail service.  The SIP proxy performs an (ENUM) lookup of 9231000 which resolves to 3.3.3.3.

When the call reaches the voicemail server, the message may be deposited into a voice mailbox for 5551234, 5551000, or both depending on the configured policy.

In addition, in practice one would normally encounter scenarios where the SIP proxy is owned by a carrier and the voicemail server by a third party.  In this example, usage of the Diversion header allows voicemail service policy to be changed (by the voicemail provider) without requiring changes in the carrier's equipment.

RFC3087 approach:
--------------

Voicemail policy configuration-++
                               ||
                               ||
                               \/
                        |<---------carrier A-------->|<-Voicemail vendor X->|
                 (555xxxx)                                 (9231000)
                           (1.1.1.1)      (2.2.2.2)        (3.3.3.3)
PSTN              PBX         GW           SIP Proxy   SIP voicemail server
|                  |           |                |              |
|--Setup---------->|           |                |              |
|  called:5551234  |           |                |              |
|                  |           |                |              |
|<-Call Proceeding-|           |                |              |
|                  |           |                |              |
|<-Alerting--------|           |                |              |
|                  |           |                |              |
|          CFNA timer expires  |                |              |
|                  |           |                |              |
|              ----|           |                |              |
|            /   Call presented to 5551001 (admin)             |
|            \     |           |                |              |
|             ---->|           |                |              |
|                busy          |                |              |
|                  |           |                |              |
|                  |--Setup--->|                |              |
|                  |  called: 9231000           |              |
|                  |  1st Redirection: 5551234  |              |
|                  |    reason=cfna             |              |
|                  |  2nd Redirection: 5551001  |              |
|                  |    reason=cfb              |              |
|                  |  counter=2                 |              |
|                  |           |                |              |
|                  |           |--INVITE ------>|              |
|                  |(Request-URI) sip:9231000_cfb_5551001@2.2.2.2;user=phone
|                  |           |  To: 9231000@1.1.1.1
|                  |           |                |              |
|                  |           |        routing lookup (eg. ENUM)
|                  |           |        (9231000->3.3.3.3)
|                  |           |                |              |
|                  |           |                |--INVITE ---->|
|                  |           |     (Request-URI) sip:9231000_cfb_5551001@3.3.3.3
|                  |           |                |  To: 9231000@1.1.1.1
|                  |           |                |              |
|                  |           |                |<-200---------|
|                  |           |<-200-----------|              |
|                  |           |--ACK------------------------->|
|                  |<-Connect--|                |              |
|<-Connect---------|           |                |              |
|                  |           |                |              |

In this approach, every carrier's PSTN/SIP GW would need to be configured with voicemail vendor X's service policy.  For N voicemail service vendors, there would need to be (at least) N policy rules in each PSTN/SIP GW.  Assuming voicemail service policy which is configurable per-user, there would be the sum (from 1 to NumVoicemailVendors) of the number of users of each voicemail vendor:

NumVoicemailVendors
--
\      NumUsers(i)
/
--
i=1

As the number of (voicemail) service vendors increases, the complexity of this policy configuration at _every_ PSTN/SIP GW increases.

Diversion I-D approach:
------------------

Voicemail policy configuration----------------------------------++
                                                                ||
                                                                ||
                                                                \/
                        |<---------carrier A--------->|<-Voicemail vendor X->|
                (555xxxx)                                     (9231000)
                           (1.1.1.1)      (2.2.2.2)           (3.3.3.3)
PSTN              PBX         GW           SIP Proxy     SIP voicemail server
|                  |           |                |                |
|--Setup---------->|           |                |                |
|  called:5551234  |           |                |                |
|                  |           |                |                |
|<-Call Proceeding-|           |                |                |
|                  |           |                |                |
|<-Alerting--------|           |                |                |
|                  |           |                |                |
|          CFNA timer expires  |                |                |
|                  |           |                |                |
|              ----|           |                |                |
|            /   Call presented to 5551001 (admin)               |
|            \     |           |                |                |
|             ---->|           |                |                |
|                busy          |                |                |
|                  |           |                |                |
|                  |--Setup--->|                |                |
|                  |  called: 9231000           |                |
|                  |  1st Redirection: 5551234  |                |
|                  |    reason=cfna             |                |
|                  |  2nd Redirection: 5551001  |                |
|                  |    reason=cfb              |                |
|                  |  counter=2                 |                |
|                  |           |                |                |
|                  |           |--INVITE ----------------------->|
|                  |(Request-URI) sip:9231000@2.2.2.2;user=phone
|                  |           |  To: 9231000@1.1.1.1
|                  |           |  Diversion: <sip:5551001@1.1.1.1;user=phone>;reason=cfb,
|                  |           |             <sip:5551234@1.1.1.1;user=phone>;reason=cfna
|                  |           |                |                |
|                  |           |        routing lookup (eg. ENUM)
|                  |           |        (9231000->3.3.3.3)       |
|                  |           |                |                |
|                  |           |                |--INVITE ------>|
|                  |           |     (Request-URI) sip:3.3.3.3;user=ip
|                  |           |                |  To: 9231000@1.1.1.1
|                  |           |                |  Diversion: <sip:5551001@1.1.1.1;user=phone>;reason=cfb,
|                  |           |                |             <sip:5551234@1.1.1.1;user=phone>;reason=cfna
|                  |           |                |                |
|                  |           |                |<-200-----------|
|                  |           |<-200-----------|                |
|                  |           |--ACK--------------------------->|
|                  |<-Connect--|                |                |
|<-Connect---------|           |                |                |
|                  |           |                |                |

With this approach, no policy configuration in the SIP GW or SIP proxy is needed.  Each voicemail service vendor locally configures the desired policy.

====================================
Scenario 2: Diversion to Off-net voicemail server
====================================

In the following ladder diagram, a call is placed from a SIP user agent (UA1) to 5551111.  The SIP proxy resolves this to another SIP user agent (UA2).  The Call Forward No Answer (CFNA) timer expires in the SIP proxy, and the SIP proxy diverts the call to the user's admin/secretary at 5551112.  The secretary's phone is busy, so the SIP proxy diverts the call through the local SIP/PSTN gateway to a PSTN voicemail service.

When the call reaches the voicemail server, the message may be deposited into a voice mailbox for 5551234, 5551000, or both depending on the configured policy.

In addition, in practice one would normally encounter scenarios where the SIP proxy and SIP GW is owned by a carrier and the voicemail server by a third party.  In this example, usage of the Diversion header allows voicemail service policy to be changed (by the voicemail provider) without requiring changes in the carrier's equipment.

RFC3087 approach:
--------------

Voicemail policy configuration---++
                                 ||
                                 ||
                                 \/
                       |<---------carrier A--------->|<-Voicemail vendor X->|
                                                           (666xxxx)
      (5551111) (5551112)  (1.1.1.1)     (2.2.2.2)
UA1    UA2      UAS3       SIP Proxy     SIP/PSTN GW   PSTN voicemail server
|       |         |              |              |                  |
|--INVITE ---------------------->|              |                  |
|  sip:5551111@1.1.1.1;user=phone               |                  |
|       |                        |              |                  |
|       |<-INVITE----------------|              |                  |
|       |  sip:5551111@UA2;user=phone           |                  |
|       |         |              |              |                  |
|       |--180------------------>|              |                  |
|       |         |              |              |                  |
|<-180---------------------------|              |                  |
|       |         |              |              |                  |
|       |         |       CFNA timer expires    |                  |
|       |         |              |              |                  |
|       |         |<-INVITE------|              |                  |
|       |         |  sip:5551112@UA3;user=phone |                  |
|       |         |              |              |                  |
|       |         |--486-------->|              |                  |
|       |         |            CFBusy           |                  |
|       |         |              |--INVITE----->|                  |
|       |         |              |  sip:6661112@2.2.2.2;user=phone |
|       |         |              |              |                  |
|       |         |              |              |-Setup----------->|
|       |         |              |              | called:6661112   |
|       |         |              |              |                  |
|       |         |              |              |<-Call Proceeding-|
|       |         |              |              |<-Alerting--------|
|       |         |              |<-180---------|                  |
|<-180---------------------------|              |                  |
|       |         |              |              |<-Connect---------|
|       |         |              |<-200---------|                  |
|<-200---------------------------|              |                  |
|--ACK----------------------------------------->|                  |

Here's a second call, using the same voicemail server:

Voicemail policy configuration---++
                                 ||
                                 ||
                                 \/
                       |<---------carrier A-------->|<-Voicemail vendor X->|
                                                           (666xxxx)
                           (1.1.1.1)     (2.2.2.2)
UA3    UA4      UAS5       SIP Proxy     SIP/PSTN GW   PSTN voicemail server
|       |         |              |              |                  |
|--INVITE ---------------------->|              |                  |
|  sip:5551114@1.1.1.1;user=phone               |                  |
|       |                        |              |                  |
|       |<-INVITE----------------|              |                  |
|       |  sip:5551114@UA4;user=phone           |                  |
|       |         |              |              |                  |
|       |--180------------------>|              |                  |
|       |         |              |              |                  |
|<-180---------------------------|              |                  |
|       |         |              |              |                  |
|       |         |       CFNA timer expires    |                  |
|       |         |              |              |                  |
|       |         |<-INVITE------|              |                  |
|       |         |  sip:5551115@UA3;user=phone |                  |
|       |         |              |              |                  |
|       |         |--486-------->|              |                  |
|       |         |            CFBusy           |                  |
|       |         |              |--INVITE----->|                  |
|       |         |              |  sip:6661115@2.2.2.2;user=phone |
|       |         |              |              |                  |
|       |         |              |              |-Setup----------->|
|       |         |              |              | called:6661115   |
|       |         |              |              |                  |
|       |         |              |              |<-Call Proceeding-|
|       |         |              |              |<-Alerting--------|
|       |         |              |<-180---------|                  |
|<-180---------------------------|              |                  |
|       |         |              |              |<-Connect---------|
|       |         |              |<-200---------|                  |
|<-200---------------------------|              |                  |
|--ACK----------------------------------------->|                  |

In this approach, the voicemail server must own a block of E.164 numbers (one per subscriber).  For N voicemail service subscribers, the voicemail server would need to own N E.164 numbers.  As the numbers of subscribers increases, this may become a significant cost-issue for the voicemail service vendor.

Also notice that, in this approach, voicemail service policy is configured in the carrier's SIP proxy.

Diversion I-D approach:
------------------

Voicemail policy configuration------------------------------------++
                                                                  ||
                                                                  ||
                                                                  \/
                         |<---------carrier A------->|<-Voicemail vendor->|
                                                          (66622222)
      (5551111) (5551112)  (1.1.1.1)     (2.2.2.2)
UA1    UA2      UAS3       SIP Proxy     SIP/PSTN GW  PSTN voicemail server
|       |         |              |              |                  |
|--INVITE ---------------------->|              |                  |
|  sip:5551111@1.1.1.1;user=phone               |                  |
|       |                        |              |                  |
|       |<-INVITE----------------|              |                  |
|       |  sip:5551111@UA2;user=phone           |                  |
|       |         |              |              |                  |
|       |         |       CFNA timer expires    |                  |
|       |         |              |              |                  |
|       |         |<-INVITE------|              |                  |
|       |         |  sip:5551112@UA3;user=phone |                  |
|       |         |  Diversion: <sip:5551111@1.1.1.1;user=phone>;reason=cfna
|       |         |              |              |                  |
|       |         |--486-------->|              |                  |
|       |         |            CFBusy           |                  |
|       |         |              |--INVITE----->|                  |
|       |         |              |  sip:6662222@2.2.2.2;user=phone |
|       |         |              |  Diversion: <sip:5551112@1.1.1.1;user=phone>;reason=cfb,
|       |         |              |             <sip:5551111@1.1.1.1;user=phone>;reason=cfna
|       |         |              |              |                  |
|       |         |              |              |-Setup----------->|
|       |         |              |              | called:6662222   |
|       |         |              |              | 1st Redirection: 5551111
|       |         |              |              | 2nd Redirection: 5551112
|       |         |              |              |                  |
|       |         |              |              |<-Connect---------|
|       |         |              |              |<-Call Proceeding-|
|       |         |              |              |<-Alerting--------|
|       |         |              |<-180---------|                  |
|<-180---------------------------|              |                  |
|       |         |              |              |<-Connect---------|
|       |         |              |<-200---------|                  |
|<-200---------------------------|              |                  |
|--ACK----------------------------------------->|                  |

With this approach, the voicemail vendor only needs one E.164 number and no policy configuration in the carrier's SIP GW or SIP proxy is needed.  Each voicemail service vendor locally configures the desired policy.
 
 

* I would really appreciate voicemail vendors (and voicemail equipment manufacturers) speaking up on this issue.  Are you actually willing to depend on your carrier to configure your service policy (per RFC3087)?  Are you willing to wait for your carrier to deploy equipment that can configure the service policy?  When your carrier misconfigures your service policy, who will your customers blame?  What incentive will the carrier have to fix the problem in a timely fashion?  Wouldn't you rather be in control of your own policy (using a mechanism such as the Diversion I-D)?

* I would also appreciate feedback from carriers (and carrier equipment manufacturers).  Per RFC3087, do you really want to have to change the policy in all of your domain's border (GW and proxy) nodes everytime a third-party (voicemail) service customer wants to change a service policy for one of their customers?  What incentive do you have to update this policy in a timely manner?  What incentive do you have to deploy equipment to support third-party policy configuration?  Wouldn't you rather the (voicemail) service vendors just  manage their own policy (using a mechanism such as the Diversion I-D)?
 

Onto the next issue.

I believe the point was made that Diversion simplifies PSTN
interoperability. If a request has been diverted in the PSTN, we can carry
the PSTN diversion information in SIP in the Diversion headers. This way, we
can design SIP enabled systems that provide servers to PSTN endpoints,
without loss of information. However, we've talked about this issue for a
long time. The SIP group has already decided that instead of defining each
ISUP/ISDN header as a SIP header, we will encapsulate these PSTN messages as
bodies, and use SIP-T. That means we can still build SIP enabled systems
that provide services to PSTN users, without loss of information, yet we can
avoid replicating each ISUP header into SIP.

If PSTN calls use SIP only for backbone signalling, the SIP-T encapsulation approach is fine.  However, when terminating SIP calls on PSTN networks, or PSTN calls on SIP networks, a translative approach is needed to achieve the expected behavior.

Although I'm not advocating replicating every ISUP header in SIP, I don't see anything wrong with using equivalent (or a superset) of functionality of useful ISUP headers.  A case-by-case approach seems appropriate to me.  Regardless, this draft's sole focus is Diversion information.

OK, now to some nitty gritty issues I have with Diversion. It says that the
proxies only insert the Diversion header when the call is diverted, which is
defined as:

diversion:      A change to the ultimate destination endpoint
                    of a request.  A change in the Request-URI of a
                    request that was not caused by a routing decision.
                    This is also sometimes called a deflection or
redirection.
A diversion can occur when the "user" portion of the
                    Request-URI is changed for a reason other than
                    expansion or translation.

Now, I would be really impressed if someone can tell me how to program a
proxy to know the difference between a routing decision that changes the
ultimate destination, and one that does not. In SIP, we make no distinction
between the two.

One suggestion is to apply the same algorithm that we use for spiral loop detection.  If the user portion of the (sip:user@host) URL does not change, then consider it a simple routing decision (that does not require a Diversion header).  If the user portion of the (sip:user@host) URL does change, then add a Diversion header.
So, effectively, every single proxy or redirect operation
will require the insertion of this Diversion header. This means another set
of stacked headers, of exactly the same length as the Via headers. That
significant overhead, and its additional processing. Furthermore, every
proxy would need to do it for each and every call, since they don't know
whether the ultimate recipient will need to make use of Diversion to provide
some services.
As I've described above, this argument does not apply.  If the user portion of the URL changes, add a Diversion header.  If the user portion of the URL doesn't change, don't add a Diversion header.
The final concern I have is a "slippery slope" argument. Effectively,
Diversion is about encapsulating a routing decision made at point A, and
sending it to a downstream device. Right now, Diversion handles routing
decisions such as call-forward-no-answer, call-forward-busy, unconditional,
and so on. However, in practice, the logic for a call diversion can be
arbitrarily complex. What if its some complex CPL script that caused the
diversion? How do I represent that kind of logic? Where do we draw the line?
If several features such as CFB, CFNA, CFTOD are defined in one CPL script, then the script would be capable of marking any one of 3 reasons (cfb, cfna, cftod) depending on which scenario was encountered.  If the script truly has a new reason, then define a new reason code.  This argument is akin to asking how many response codes should be defined in SIP.  The answer is to define the ones that you need, and don't define any more than you need.

thanks for your help,
Bryan

Bryan J. Byerly
byerly@cisco.com

-Jonathan R.

---
Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D.                72 Eagle Rock Ave.
Chief Scientist                             First Floor
dynamicsoft                                 East Hanover, NJ 07936
jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com                     FAX:   (973) 952-5050
http://www.jdrosen.net                      PHONE: (973) 952-5000
http://www.dynamicsoft.com
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bryan Byerly [mailto:byerly@cisco.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 5:33 PM
> To: Igor Slepchin
> Cc: patrick.mourot@online.fr; sip@lists.bell-labs.com;
> sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu; stlevy@cisco.com; byerly@cisco.com
> Subject: [Sip-implementors] Re: [SIP] Draft about diversion
> out of date
>
>
> Hi Igor,
>
> I've attached an additional example of a scenario that you've
> requested.
>
> Please see other responses inline.
>
> thanks for your help,
> Bryan
>
> Igor Slepchin wrote:
>
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Bryan Byerly [mailto:byerly@cisco.com]
> > >
> > > As I presented at the December 2000 IETF, the I-D is
> > > motivated by several
> > > PSTN/SIP internetworking scenarios including:
> >
> > I'd like to see what internetworking scenarios don't work
> without it.
>
> I've attached one such example.
>
> > > Multiple diversions.
> >
> > Hmm, these are not really supported by PSTN. Just as your
> draft says, the
> > only information available in ISDN parameters are the
> called party and the
> > redirecting number. Nowhere does PSTN remember all the
> previous redirections
> > like suggested by the draft.
>
> Actually, as the Diversion I-D points out, most ISUP and ISDN
> variants support
> up to 2 redirecting numbers.  Could you point out the part of
> the Diversion
> I-D that led you to believe there could be only one?  We'd
> need to clarify that
> section.
>
> > > Diverting a call to an E.164 service.
> >
> > What services is Diversion header required for? There are
> lots of obscure
> > parameters in PSTN signaling; replicating all of them in
> SIP does not sound
> > like a very good idea and is not necessary for internetworking.
>
> The Diversion I-D is focused on answering 2 questions for the
> (ultimately)
> called user agent:
> From whom was the call diverted?
> Why was the call diverted?
>
> Implementations of services such as voicemail and night
> service frequently
> require this information.
>
> > > Configuration issues (moving policy configuration to edges (UAs))
> > >
> > > An ultimately called UAS can use the Diversion headers to
> > > implement a local
> > > policy for his particular service.  For example, to answer
> > > the question:
> > > Into which voice mailbox should a message be placed?  It's
> > > important to
> > > understand that this is a policy decision; and as such should be
> > > configurable at the ultimate edge of the voice network (i.e.
> > > move the smarts
> > > to the edges).  The examples in section 9 do cover some of
> > > these issues.
> >
> > I find examples in section 9 rather farfetched. No company
> is ever going to
> > have SIP addresses that look like sip:pizza@p1.isp.com
> (when was the last
> > time you saw a real company with an email account at aol.com?)
> > Realistically, the night service calls you mentioned will
> be redirected to
> > something like pizza@nightservice.com or roses@nightservice.com.
>
> The example shows translation of a generic keyword (pizza)
> into a specific URL
> as determined by the policy of the "carrier".  Today's web brower
> "carriers" already exhibit this type of behavior today.  Try
> typing "pizza" in
> your web browser...  I wouldn't be surprised if the topmost
> hits weren't
> somehow compensating the web browser "carrier".  I'd imagine
> that tomorrow's
> VoIP carriers could base some business models off of this idea.
>
> Again, please also see the attached example below.  Perhaps
> it will seem more
> realistic.
>
> The Diversion header is merely providing supplementary
> information that cannot
> always be found in any other parts of the SIP PDU.
> Implementors of some
> services (including voicemail and nightservice) need a consistent
> (standardized) mechanism to retrieve this supplementary
> information so that
> they can apply policy decisions to it to affect their service
> logic.  The
> Diversion header provides such a mechanism and does so
> without creating a
> configuration burden on system administrators of intermediate
> gateway/routing
> nodes.
>
> thanks again for your help,
> Bryan
>
> Bryan J. Byerly
> byerly@cisco.com
>
>

_______________________________________________
This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol.
The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation,
and to receive advice on understanding existing sip.
To subscribe to it, send mail to
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  --------------2CDF2736D693E58EADEFEE28-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 16 12:37:57 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA13618 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 12:37:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71277443AC; Wed, 16 May 2001 12:38:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mailcity.com (fes3.whowhere.com [209.185.123.188]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 530E244336 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 12:37:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Unknown/Local ([?.?.?.?]) by mailcity.com; Wed May 16 09:36:52 2001 To: "SIP List" From: "Info Van" Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sent-Mail: off Reply-To: infovaan@lycos.com X-Mailer: MailCity Service Subject: Re: [SIP] SIP MGCP i/w X-Sender-Ip: 207.31.112.126 Organization: Lycos Mail (http://mail.lycos.com:80) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Language: en Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 12:36:52 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thank you very much for your comments. i am posting this message with an obvious extra caution. i respect the "forum" and it's policies, but i can't help but try to take this discussion just 1 step further. have the implementors/sip developers/contributors and WG looked at the proposals of MSF (www.msforum.org). they do believe in such a decomposition of UA under certain circumstances. i believe the motivation to keep this question of to decompose or not to, is left to implementor s.t. the applicability of SIP in general, remains more generic, than the "centralized" approach of traditional-telephony. also, another good place to look for very good (common-sensicle) ideas is TINA-C (www.tinac.com). i agree (and see your point) that SIP and MGCP are orthogonal, but like the SIP Hosts/Proxyserver's requirements (which tends to take a shape similar to the RFC defining requirements of internet routers/hosts), shouldn't it have some provision for this decomposed architecture too. is the WG sure that there is never going to be a SIP/MGCP document? not interworking, but use of MGCP in a decomposed SIP UA, type of document ? anyway, this is my last post on this group regarding this topic. thanks, iv. -- On Wed, 16 May 2001 11:03:06 Alan Johnston wrote: >Hi, > >This discussion does not really belong on the SIP list, as it has nothing to do with developing the SIP protocol. However, here's my comments. > >MGCP and SIP are completely orthogonal - they do not map from one to the other. SIP is a pure signaling protocol used to locate endpoints and setup calls across the Internet between intelligent devices. MGCP is a device control protocol between a Master (controller) and a >Slave (gateway). > >A SIP UA contains both a controller (SIP signaling) and gateway (RTP and user interface), so MGCP is just a way of decomposing a UA into two components, but you are left with only a UA, and not a complete SIP network of registrars, proxies, location servers, and UAs. > >I hope this helps - there is absolutely no need for this to be standardized. > >Alan Johnston >WorldCom >sip:alan.johnston@siptest.wcom.com > >Info Van wrote: > >> hi matt, >> >> >>"Q. What is the relationship between MGCP and SIP?" >> ... >> >>document (draft maybe) is available to help with the interworking ? >> >> >Why is such a document needed? This is not something that needs >> >standardization, especially at this stage. Anyone can build an IWF that >> >speaks MGCP out one interface and SIP out another. How they choose to make >> >sense of each message is up to them. Let's not try to reproduce Q.699. >> >> do you think the DSS1/ISUP I/W document was unnecessary or not upto it's mark ? why i am asking this is because, i need to ascertain and justify to me and my peers that the task that's assigned to me, is really not worth "standardization effort". any arguments would help. >> >> thanks, >> iv. >> >> Get 250 color business cards for FREE! >> http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. >> The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, >> and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. >> To subscribe to it, send mail to >> sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > > Get 250 color business cards for FREE! http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/ _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 16 12:45:00 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA13781 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 12:44:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5837E443F0; Wed, 16 May 2001 12:45:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com [161.44.11.97]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 583C2443E6 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 12:44:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dingdong.cisco.com (dingdong.cisco.com [64.102.17.16]) by rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id f4GGhDX09014; Wed, 16 May 2001 12:43:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cisco.com (rtp-xdm3.cisco.com [64.102.17.82]) by dingdong.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id AGQ05003 (AUTH byerly); Wed, 16 May 2001 12:44:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B02AE5E.8574E892@cisco.com> From: Bryan Byerly X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51C-CISCOENG [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Henning Schulzrinne Cc: Jonathan Rosenberg , Igor Slepchin , patrick.mourot@online.fr, sip@lists.bell-labs.com, stlevy@cisco.com, byerly@cisco.com Subject: Re: [Sip-implementors] Re: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of date References: <3B01278E.97140A52@cs.columbia.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 12:44:14 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Henning, I appreciate your responses. Please see comments inline. Henning Schulzrinne wrote: > To add (or probably just rephrase): In the voicemail case, leaving the > decision to the secretary's proxy is also not the right thing. How is > the secretary to know what to do? After all, there may well be cases > where the secretary *should* get the voicemail, since S may be the one > that can actually access it in time. Indeed, by infering intent from > route, I can get myself into the situation that I want to avoid talking > to B's voicemail (since I know B can't or won't pick it up) and instead > want to either get B directly or talk to S. If I rely on diversion, I > will inevitably end up in B's mailbox. > > Thus, the mere indication of diversion provides insufficient clarity as > to the intent of the caller or any intermediate parties for further > handling of the request. > > On the other hand, B's proxy can make this decision, since it's B's > call. > > Thus, this is also an example of explicit vs. implicit. In the old phone > system, we could only express things implicitly ("because these things > happened, the caller must have meant to do X"). Whether the SIP proxy, GW (using RFC3087), or user-agent server (using Diversion I-D) is making the policy decision, the same incoming information is being used to apply the policy, namely the request-URI (and diversion reason) at the time the call was diverted. > Also note that for the most common case, we already have the most > important information, namely the caller-intended destination, in the To > header. RFC3087 and the Diversion I-D both agree that the To: header cannot always be used. Here's an excerpt from RFC3087 on this matter, Section 3.1.2.1, paragraph 2: An application designer may be tempted to attempt to match the To: and From: headers on a call to infer information. However, this approach could cause complications when multiple proxy forwards occur in a call. For example, A calls B, who has all calls forwarded to C. C forwards the call to her voice mail service. If the voice mail service matches the To: header to determine the message store, it will get the information for B instead of C. But there is no reason to assume that C's voice mail service has any knowledge of B. Here's an excerpt from draft-levy-sip-diversion-02.txt, Section 9.3: Question 1: Why do we need the Diversion header when we can see the To: header? Answer: a) The To: header is not guaranteed to have significance to the called party. For example, the To: header may contain a locally significant URL (to the caller) such as a private numbering plan, speed dial digits, telephony escape digits, or telephony prefix digits. Without a Diversion header, enumerating all possible locally significant To: headers that anyone might use to contact Bob@uas1.isp.com becomes a configuration problem at Voicemail@isp.com and is prone to namespace collision. Support for Diversion headers enables Bob to contract a third-party service (Voicemail@isp.com) with a single globally significant URL for his voice mailbox (Bob@uas1.isp.com). Even if the To: header contained the relevant information 98% of the time; customers would certainly complain about the 2% of the time that a To: header dependent implementation failed to provide the expected behavior. > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. thanks again for your help, Bryan Bryan J. Byerly byerly@cisco.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 16 13:22:00 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA14583 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 13:21:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 250B044378; Wed, 16 May 2001 13:22:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from sapphire.int.ipverse.com (unknown [65.195.29.42]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39C2B44336 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 13:21:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from matt.ipverse.com (MATT [10.1.1.150]) by sapphire.int.ipverse.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id KDVGY90F; Wed, 16 May 2001 10:21:53 -0700 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20010516101702.021b4790@mail.ipverse.com> X-Sender: matt@mail.ipverse.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 To: infovaan@lycos.com, "SIP List" From: Matt Holdrege Subject: Re: [SIP] SIP MGCP i/w In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 10:21:53 -0700 At 07:56 AM 5/16/2001, Info Van wrote: >hi matt, > > >>"Q. What is the relationship between MGCP and SIP?" >... > >>document (draft maybe) is available to help with the interworking ? > > >Why is such a document needed? This is not something that needs > >standardization, especially at this stage. Anyone can build an IWF that > >speaks MGCP out one interface and SIP out another. How they choose to make > >sense of each message is up to them. Let's not try to reproduce Q.699. > >do you think the DSS1/ISUP I/W document was unnecessary or not upto it's >mark ? why i am asking this is because, i need to ascertain and justify to >me and my peers that the task that's assigned to me, is really not worth >"standardization effort". any arguments would help. Q.699 is a fine document, but it serves as a standard for traditional ISDN switches in a fixed, regulated environment. We are creating IWF's that go in devices such as Softswitches that are not at all fixed, and must worked in both regulated and non-regulated situations. We want the flexibility to evolve SIP and MGCP (same goes for SIP and H.323) interactions. This is very important as the utilization for SIP progresses to newer applications. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 16 13:55:01 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA15282 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 13:55:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D3AF443D0; Wed, 16 May 2001 13:55:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from opus.cs.columbia.edu (opus.cs.columbia.edu [128.59.20.100]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 089E844388 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 13:54:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cs.columbia.edu (bart.cs.columbia.edu [128.59.19.191]) by opus.cs.columbia.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA11560; Wed, 16 May 2001 13:54:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B02BEC4.5009B000@cs.columbia.edu> From: "Henning G. Schulzrinne" Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Columbia University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.8 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bryan Byerly Cc: Henning Schulzrinne , Jonathan Rosenberg , Igor Slepchin , patrick.mourot@online.fr, sip@lists.bell-labs.com, stlevy@cisco.com Subject: Re: [Sip-implementors] Re: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of date References: <3B01278E.97140A52@cs.columbia.edu> <3B02AE5E.8574E892@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 13:54:12 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bryan Byerly wrote: > > Whether the SIP proxy, GW (using RFC3087), or user-agent server (using > Diversion I-D) is making the policy decision, the same incoming information > is being used to apply the policy, namely the request-URI (and diversion > reason) at the time the call was diverted. The point is that Diversion is neither useful nor required for this service. Indeed, it only encourages the old-style implict service model. If it's not useful, it doesn't need to be standardized. > > > Also note that for the most common case, we already have the most > > > important information, namely the caller-intended destination, in the To > > header. > > RFC3087 and the Diversion I-D both agree that the To: header cannot always > be used. > > Here's an excerpt from RFC3087 on this matter, Section 3.1.2.1, paragraph > 2: > An application designer may be tempted to attempt to match the To: > and From: headers on a call to infer information. However, this > approach could cause complications when multiple proxy forwards occur > in a call. For example, A calls B, who has all calls forwarded to C. > C forwards the call to her voice mail service. If the voice mail > service matches the To: header to determine the message store, it > will get the information for B instead of C. But there is no reason > to assume that C's voice mail service has any knowledge of B. The whole point is that B should remain in control of the call, since it is the designated location. The Diversion header does not help at all in clarifying intent by any of the parties involved. -- Henning Schulzrinne http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~hgs _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 16 14:08:00 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id OAA15752 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 14:08:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA586443A0; Wed, 16 May 2001 14:08:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com [161.44.11.97]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB3E744336 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 14:07:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dingdong.cisco.com (dingdong.cisco.com [64.102.17.16]) by rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id f4GI6kX15407; Wed, 16 May 2001 14:06:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cisco.com (rtp-xdm2.cisco.com [64.102.17.79]) by dingdong.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id AGQ07413 (AUTH byerly); Wed, 16 May 2001 14:07:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B02C20F.29234861@cisco.com> From: Bryan Byerly X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51C-CISCOENG [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Henning G. Schulzrinne" Cc: Henning Schulzrinne , Jonathan Rosenberg , Igor Slepchin , patrick.mourot@online.fr, sip@lists.bell-labs.com, stlevy@cisco.com, byerly@cisco.com Subject: Re: [Sip-implementors] Re: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of date References: <3B01278E.97140A52@cs.columbia.edu> <3B02AE5E.8574E892@cisco.com> <3B02BEC4.5009B000@cs.columbia.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 14:08:15 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Henning, "Henning G. Schulzrinne" wrote: > The whole point is that B should remain in control of the call, since it > is the designated location. The Diversion header does not help at all in > clarifying intent by any of the parties involved. This is appears to be an underlying assumption at which we're diverging. When control of the call is diverted (to a new user), we're assuming that control of the called leg is transferred to that new user. I believe that you're assuming that control of the call remains with the original user. Without an agreement on this assumption, I believe that we'll have to agree to disagree. > -- > Henning Schulzrinne http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~hgs thanks again for your help, Bryan Bryan J. Byerly byerly@cisco.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 16 14:29:00 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id OAA16286 for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 14:28:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A143B44388; Wed, 16 May 2001 14:29:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com [161.44.11.97]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C2A64433A for ; Wed, 16 May 2001 14:28:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dingdong.cisco.com (dingdong.cisco.com [64.102.17.16]) by rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id f4GIRNX17124; Wed, 16 May 2001 14:27:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cisco.com (rtp-xdm2.cisco.com [64.102.17.79]) by dingdong.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id AGQ08122 (AUTH byerly); Wed, 16 May 2001 14:28:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B02C6E5.8A09D2BA@cisco.com> From: Bryan Byerly X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51C-CISCOENG [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Henning G. Schulzrinne" Cc: Henning Schulzrinne , Jonathan Rosenberg , Igor Slepchin , patrick.mourot@online.fr, sip@lists.bell-labs.com, stlevy@cisco.com Subject: Re: [Sip-implementors] Re: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of date References: <3B01278E.97140A52@cs.columbia.edu> <3B02AE5E.8574E892@cisco.com> <3B02BEC4.5009B000@cs.columbia.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 14:28:53 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Henning G. Schulzrinne" wrote: > Bryan Byerly wrote: > > Whether the SIP proxy, GW (using RFC3087), or user-agent server (using > > Diversion I-D) is making the policy decision, the same incoming information > > is being used to apply the policy, namely the request-URI (and diversion > > reason) at the time the call was diverted. > > The point is that Diversion is neither useful nor required for this > service. Indeed, it only encourages the old-style implict service model. > If it's not useful, it doesn't need to be standardized. I've pointed out several scenarios where the Diversion header is useful and preferable for (voicemail) service vendors. Please refer to the responses to Jonathan's note. thanks, Bryan _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 17 00:05:59 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id AAA25690 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 00:05:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E90534433A; Thu, 17 May 2001 00:06:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 689B544337 for ; Tue, 15 May 2001 07:02:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA20298; Tue, 15 May 2001 07:02:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105151102.HAA20298@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: [SIP] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-isup-01.txt Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 07:02:09 -0400 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Session Initiation Protocol Working Group of the IETF. Title : ISUP to SIP Mapping Author(s) : G. Camarillo, A. Roach et al. Filename : draft-ietf-sip-isup-01.txt Pages : 52 Date : 14-May-01 This document describes a way to perform the mapping between two signaling protocols: the Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) and the ISDN User Part (ISUP) of SS7. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-isup-01.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-sip-isup-01.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-isup-01.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20010514150524.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-isup-01.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-sip-isup-01.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20010514150524.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 17 02:10:56 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id CAA07787 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 02:10:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFDF2443A6; Thu, 17 May 2001 02:11:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE75944389 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 02:10:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id CAA10980; Thu, 17 May 2001 02:14:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 17 May 2001 02:10:47 -0400 Message-ID: From: Jonathan Rosenberg To: "'Matt Holdrege'" , Jonathan Rosenberg Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com, mankin@east.isi.edu Subject: RE: [Sip-implementors] Re: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of dat e MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 02:10:41 -0400 > -----Original Message----- > From: Matt Holdrege [mailto:matt@ipverse.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 6:30 PM > To: Jonathan Rosenberg > Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com; mankin@east.isi.edu > Subject: RE: [Sip-implementors] Re: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of > date > > > At 12:19 AM 5/15/2001, Jonathan Rosenberg wrote: > >Now, this problem is fixable. As Allison has mentioned > during IETF 50, all > >extensions henceforth MUST describe how backwards > compatibility operates. > >Therefore, the draft MUST describe how gateways, voicemail > servers, and > >anything else that looks at Diversion, would work in its absence. > > Jonathan, you mentioned that this was not standards track. > Why must we > describe backwards compatibility with any old > draft-yournamehere-sip-xxx.txt document? An informational document that simply describes one vendors approach does not need to worry about compliance with anything, since its just informational. However, this draft is aimed at becoming a standards track extension, and thus needs to worry about backwards compatibility. -Jonathan R. --- Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 72 Eagle Rock Ave. Chief Scientist First Floor dynamicsoft East Hanover, NJ 07936 jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 http://www.dynamicsoft.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 17 03:15:58 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id DAA11570 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 03:15:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8850E443C3; Thu, 17 May 2001 03:16:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B610443BC for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 03:15:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id DAA11139; Thu, 17 May 2001 03:19:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 17 May 2001 03:15:18 -0400 Message-ID: From: Jonathan Rosenberg To: "'aki.niemi@nokia.com'" , sip@lists.bell-labs.com Cc: Jonathan Rosenberg , brett@broadsoft.com Subject: RE: [SIP] WWW-Authenticate in 2xx responses MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 03:15:08 -0400 > -----Original Message----- > From: aki.niemi@nokia.com [mailto:aki.niemi@nokia.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 8:32 AM > To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com > Cc: jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com; brett@broadsoft.com > Subject: RE: [SIP] WWW-Authenticate in 2xx responses > > > Hi, > > > > The bis currently reflects that the WWW-Authenticate > > > header can only be in requests and 401 responses. > > > Can the WWW-Authenticate header be passed within a > > > 2xx response (updating nonce) to hopefully avoid > > > some extra 401's during subsequent > > > registrations/requests directed to the same > > > registrar/UAS? > > > > No. > > > > The way to avoid the extra 401s is to cache the credentials, > > and resubmit > > them for any subsequent requests to the same URI. In other > > words, you don't > > wait for a 401 to insert an Authorization header. Each > > request for the same > > URI contains any Authorization header sent previously to that > > same URI. The > > nonce may have become stale, in which case the request will > > generate a 401 > > which effectively refreshes the nonce. > > But isn't the point here, that nonces ultimately do become > stale, and must > at some point be refreshed in the 401s. Hence generating "extra" 401s, > sooner or later. > > In my opinion, this is not entirely necessary. HTTP > Authentication does > specify a header to be inserted to responses by the server, namely > Authentication-Info, which is used to convey next nonce as > well as provide > for mutual authentication in HTTP. > > It is beyond me, why this functionality wasn't originally > copied to SIP; Because 2617 > 2543. Digest in rfc2543 is based on rfc2069, which didn't have this feature. Also note that nextnonce requires state in the server. the > registration scenario at least is analogous to where > Authentication-Info is > used in HTTP. Henning's current draft on registrations > addresses this issue > shortly, but I really think that the Authentication-Info (and possibly > Proxy-Authentication-Info) header should be added to the bis draft. It is, by reference now to rfc2617. > Of course, Proxy-Authentication-Info in SIP is tricky, since > I guess it > would demand the authenticating server to Record-Route and be > stateful. But > a registrar using Authentication-Info would be perfectly > in-line with HTTP > Authentication. There is no Proxy-Authentication-Info defined in rfc2617; if we want such a thing we will need to define it. Its not clear that we want this. -Jonathan R. --- Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 72 Eagle Rock Ave. Chief Scientist First Floor dynamicsoft East Hanover, NJ 07936 jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 http://www.dynamicsoft.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 17 05:43:56 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id FAA12686 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 05:43:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57CAA443DF; Thu, 17 May 2001 05:44:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mgw-x2.nokia.com (mgw-x2.nokia.com [131.228.20.22]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2E68443D7 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 05:43:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from esvir02nok.nokia.com (esvir02nokt.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.34]) by mgw-x2.nokia.com (Switch-2.1.0/Switch-2.1.0) with ESMTP id f4H9hgm05730 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 12:43:42 +0300 (EET DST) Received: from esebh24nok.ntc.nokia.com (unverified) by esvir02nok.nokia.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.1) with ESMTP id ; Thu, 17 May 2001 12:43:31 +0300 Received: by esebh24nok with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2652.78) id ; Thu, 17 May 2001 12:43:30 +0300 Message-ID: From: aki.niemi@nokia.com To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Cc: jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com Subject: RE: [SIP] WWW-Authenticate in 2xx responses MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2652.78) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 12:42:49 +0300 Hi, > > Because 2617 > 2543. Digest in rfc2543 is based on rfc2069, > which didn't > have this feature. Also note that nextnonce requires state in > the server. OK. But how does nextnonce require any more state in the server than does a simple 401 conveyed nonce? Even with Authentication-Info, the server only needs to cache the nonces it has sent, right? Again, Authentication-Info would only be sent by a server terminating the request, e.g. a registrar. After a registrar has sent the new nonce and cached it, it can forget about it. Doesn't matter whether the nonce left in a 401/WWW-Authenticate, or a 200/Authentication-Info. As far as the mutual authentication part is concerned, sending server-credentials in Authentication-Info should be as stateless by nature as sending client-credentials in Authorization. In my opinion, neither case introduces a need for state in the server. It's a different case for Proxy-Authentication-Info, in which the server has to maintain state in order to be able to insert the header into a returning 2xx response. But this shouldn't be a problem if we just add a disclaimer saying that if Proxy-Authentication-Info is used, the server must be stateful. > the > > registration scenario at least is analogous to where > > Authentication-Info is > > used in HTTP. Henning's current draft on registrations > > addresses this issue > > shortly, but I really think that the Authentication-Info > (and possibly > > Proxy-Authentication-Info) header should be added to the > bis draft. > > It is, by reference now to rfc2617. Then it has to be made a lot clearer. At least the bis-02 says in chapter 13.3: " 5. The Authentication-Info and Proxy-Authentication-Info fields are not used in SIP. " And since the BNFs of Authorization, Proxy-Authorization, and WWW-Authenticate and Proxy-Authenticate are spelled out in the SIP bis draft, I think it would be nice to have them for the Info headers as well. BTW, Proxy-Authentication-Info is defined in rfc2617. Its semantics are equal to those of Authentication-Info. The only difference is that Proxy-Authentication-Info is used with Proxy-Authenticate and Proxy-Authorization headers with 407s, whereas Authentication-Info is used with WWW-Authenticate and Authorization headers with 401s. BR, Aki _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 17 07:52:26 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id HAA14315 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 07:52:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CCF0443BC; Thu, 17 May 2001 07:52:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se (penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [194.237.142.110]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74ACF44336 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 07:51:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fogerty.lmf.ericsson.se (fogerty.lmf.ericsson.se [131.160.11.6]) by penguin.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.11.0/8.10.1/WIREfire-1.3) with ESMTP id f4HBprO16157 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 13:51:53 +0200 (MEST) Received: from lmf.ericsson.se (E005004B52C74.lmf.ericsson.se [131.160.30.161]) by fogerty.lmf.ericsson.se (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4HBpqJ09120 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 14:51:52 +0300 (EET DST) Message-ID: <3B03BB57.10017E71@lmf.ericsson.se> From: Christer Holmberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: Re: [SIP] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-isup-01.txt References: <200105151102.HAA20298@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------B41D74741783B9950B1E7085" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 14:51:51 +0300 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B41D74741783B9950B1E7085 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I have a comment about the ISUP-SIP draft, related to SIP-T. When PRACK is used, the UAS MUST include a Contact header and a To tag in the 18x provisional responses. I think it should also be a MUST for an UAS supporting SIP-T, since the UAC may send an INFO before it has received a final response for the INVITE. This would ensure that the INFO reaches the same node from where the 18x provisional response came, if the INVITE was forked. Comments? Regards, Christer Holmberg Ericsson Finland --------------B41D74741783B9950B1E7085 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="christer.holmberg.vcf" Content-Description: Card for Christer Holmberg Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="christer.holmberg.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit begin:vcard n:Holmberg;Christer tel;cell:+358-40-5604412 tel;work:+358-9-2992943 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Ericsson;IP Multimedia / Advanced Signalling Research Laboratory adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 email;internet:christer.holmberg@lmf.ericsson.se title:System Designer fn:Christer Holmberg end:vcard --------------B41D74741783B9950B1E7085-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 17 08:08:58 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id IAA14898 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 08:08:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31D5444389; Thu, 17 May 2001 08:09:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se (penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [194.237.142.110]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7690A44336 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 08:08:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fogerty.lmf.ericsson.se (fogerty.lmf.ericsson.se [131.160.11.6]) by penguin.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.11.0/8.10.1/WIREfire-1.3) with ESMTP id f4HC8eO23946 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 14:08:41 +0200 (MEST) Received: from lmf.ericsson.se (E005004B52C74.lmf.ericsson.se [131.160.30.161]) by fogerty.lmf.ericsson.se (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4HC8eJ10064 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 15:08:40 +0300 (EET DST) Message-ID: <3B03BF47.CA509B10@lmf.ericsson.se> From: Christer Holmberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: Re: [SIP] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-isup-01.txt References: <200105151102.HAA20298@ietf.org> <3B03BB57.10017E71@lmf.ericsson.se> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------D13E791F9403893480A5A3D3" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 15:08:39 +0300 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D13E791F9403893480A5A3D3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi again, I forgot a few lines from the previous mail :) In the call flows in the ISUP-SIP draft, PRACK is used, which means the Contact header MUST be in the provisional response. So, to ensure that the Contact header and To tag are in the provisional response there are two options: 1. To add the MUST, which I wrote in the first mail. 2. To add a MUST (I looked in the draft, but couldn't find it) for the use of PRACK in SIP-T. Regards, Christer Holmberg Ericsson Finland Christer Holmberg wrote: > > Hi, > > I have a comment about the ISUP-SIP draft, related to SIP-T. > > When PRACK is used, the UAS MUST include a Contact header and a To tag > in the 18x provisional responses. > > I think it should also be a MUST for an UAS supporting SIP-T, since the > UAC may send an INFO before it has received a final response for the > INVITE. This would ensure that the INFO reaches the same node from where > the 18x provisional response came, if the INVITE was forked. > > Comments? > > Regards, > > Christer Holmberg > Ericsson Finland --------------D13E791F9403893480A5A3D3 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="christer.holmberg.vcf" Content-Description: Card for Christer Holmberg Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="christer.holmberg.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit begin:vcard n:Holmberg;Christer tel;cell:+358-40-5604412 tel;work:+358-9-2992943 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Ericsson;IP Multimedia / Advanced Signalling Research Laboratory adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 email;internet:christer.holmberg@lmf.ericsson.se title:System Designer fn:Christer Holmberg end:vcard --------------D13E791F9403893480A5A3D3-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 17 09:25:56 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA16927 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 09:25:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA2714434C; Thu, 17 May 2001 09:26:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mailgate.pit.comms.marconi.com (mailgate.pit.comms.marconi.com [169.144.68.6]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97E0C44336 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 09:25:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailman.pit.comms.marconi.com (mailman.pit.comms.marconi.com [169.144.2.12]) by mailgate.pit.comms.marconi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA19460 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 09:25:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from whq-msgrtr-01.pit.comms.marconi.com (whq-msgrtr-01.pit.comms.marconi.com [169.144.2.221]) by mailman.pit.comms.marconi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA27561 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 09:25:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by whq-msgrtr-01.pit.comms.marconi.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 17 May 2001 09:24:49 -0400 Message-ID: <4FBEA8857476D311A03300204840E1CF01A6F62C@whq-msgusr-02.pit.comms.marconi.com> From: "Rosen, Brian" To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C0DED4.D0E33C80" Subject: [SIP] draft-ietf-sip-isup-mime-10.txt passed IESG review Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 09:25:18 -0400 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0DED4.D0E33C80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" We have learned that draft-ietf-sip-isup-mime-10.txt has passed IESG review and will be announced shortly. One more down, but there's a lot more work to do! Thanks Jon and the rest of the SIP-T crew for moving this along. Brian ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0DED4.D0E33C80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
We have learned that draft-ietf-sip-isup-mime-10.txt has passed IESG review
and will be announced shortly.
 
One more down, but there's a lot more work to do!
 
Thanks Jon and the rest of the SIP-T crew for moving this along.
 
Brian
------_=_NextPart_001_01C0DED4.D0E33C80-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 17 09:41:56 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA17293 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 09:41:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E13144406; Thu, 17 May 2001 09:42:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from acmepacket.com (mail1.acmepacket.com [63.67.143.10]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B93AF44339 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 09:41:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from BobP [63.67.143.2] by acmepacket.com (SMTPD32-6.05) id A490EEA90146; Thu, 17 May 2001 09:39:28 -0400 Message-ID: <002701c0ded7$3703ba60$2300000a@acmepacket.com> From: "Bob Penfield" To: "Jonathan Rosenberg" , , Cc: "Jonathan Rosenberg" , References: Subject: Re: [SIP] WWW-Authenticate in 2xx responses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 09:42:28 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In section 13.3 of bis-02, item 5 on page 116 says that Authentication-Info and Proxy-Authentication-Info are not used by SIP. Is there any reason why? This would need to be removed and the headers would need to be added to the grammar in Table 3 if we want to include them in SIP. (-:bob Robert F. Penfield Chief Software Architect Acme Packet, Inc. 130 New Boston Street Woburn, MA 01801 bpenfield@acmepacket.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Rosenberg" To: ; Cc: "Jonathan Rosenberg" ; Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 3:15 AM Subject: RE: [SIP] WWW-Authenticate in 2xx responses > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: aki.niemi@nokia.com [mailto:aki.niemi@nokia.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 8:32 AM > > To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com > > Cc: jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com; brett@broadsoft.com > > Subject: RE: [SIP] WWW-Authenticate in 2xx responses > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > The bis currently reflects that the WWW-Authenticate > > > > header can only be in requests and 401 responses. > > > > Can the WWW-Authenticate header be passed within a > > > > 2xx response (updating nonce) to hopefully avoid > > > > some extra 401's during subsequent > > > > registrations/requests directed to the same > > > > registrar/UAS? > > > > > > No. > > > > > > The way to avoid the extra 401s is to cache the credentials, > > > and resubmit > > > them for any subsequent requests to the same URI. In other > > > words, you don't > > > wait for a 401 to insert an Authorization header. Each > > > request for the same > > > URI contains any Authorization header sent previously to that > > > same URI. The > > > nonce may have become stale, in which case the request will > > > generate a 401 > > > which effectively refreshes the nonce. > > > > But isn't the point here, that nonces ultimately do become > > stale, and must > > at some point be refreshed in the 401s. Hence generating "extra" 401s, > > sooner or later. > > > > In my opinion, this is not entirely necessary. HTTP > > Authentication does > > specify a header to be inserted to responses by the server, namely > > Authentication-Info, which is used to convey next nonce as > > well as provide > > for mutual authentication in HTTP. > > > > It is beyond me, why this functionality wasn't originally > > copied to SIP; > > Because 2617 > 2543. Digest in rfc2543 is based on rfc2069, which didn't > have this feature. Also note that nextnonce requires state in the server. > > > the > > registration scenario at least is analogous to where > > Authentication-Info is > > used in HTTP. Henning's current draft on registrations > > addresses this issue > > shortly, but I really think that the Authentication-Info (and possibly > > Proxy-Authentication-Info) header should be added to the bis draft. > > It is, by reference now to rfc2617. > > > Of course, Proxy-Authentication-Info in SIP is tricky, since > > I guess it > > would demand the authenticating server to Record-Route and be > > stateful. But > > a registrar using Authentication-Info would be perfectly > > in-line with HTTP > > Authentication. > > There is no Proxy-Authentication-Info defined in rfc2617; if we want such a > thing we will need to define it. Its not clear that we want this. > > -Jonathan R. > > --- > Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 72 Eagle Rock Ave. > Chief Scientist First Floor > dynamicsoft East Hanover, NJ 07936 > jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 > http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 > http://www.dynamicsoft.com > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 17 10:32:01 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA18421 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 10:32:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7A9644339; Thu, 17 May 2001 10:32:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mail2.intervoice-brite.com (mail2.intervoice-brite.com [204.62.8.15]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E3BB44336 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 10:31:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 172.16.16.64 (gwsmtpsrv.intervoice.com [172.16.16.64]) by mail2.intervoice-brite.com (Build 101 8.9.3/NT-8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA14129 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 09:33:25 -0500 Received: from bculpepperpc ([151.214.151.180]) by 172.16.16.64; Thu, 17 May 2001 09:29:28 -0500 From: "Bert Culpepper" To: "'Bryan Byerly'" , "'Jonathan Rosenberg'" Cc: , , , Subject: RE: [SIP] Re: [Sip-implementors] Discussion about Diversion Message-ID: <003801c0dedd$d274e9f0$b497d697@orlando.brite.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <3B02A61D.57DE8DCE@cisco.com> Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 10:29:45 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Bryan Byerly Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 12:09 PM To: Jonathan Rosenberg Cc: stlevy@cisco.com; byerly@cisco.com; ISlepchin@dynamicsoft.com; patrick_mourot@online.fr; sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: [SIP] Re: [Sip-implementors] Discussion about Diversion > * I would really appreciate voicemail vendors (and voicemail equipment > manufacturers) speaking up on this issue. Are you actually willing to > depend on your carrier to configure your service policy (per > RFC3087)? Are you willing to wait for your carrier to deploy > equipment that can configure the service policy? When your > carrier misconfigures your service policy, who will your customers > blame? What incentive will the carrier have to fix the problem in a > timely fashion? Wouldn't you rather be in control of your own policy > (using a mechanism such as the Diversion I-D)? I can sympathize will "both sides" in this discussion. IMHO, one approach places service control in the network whereas the other supports service control in the endpoints. I myself prefer control in the endpoint, I don't want to rely on any more functionality outside of my box than I have to. And like other feature support defined for SIP, there are multiple approaches. I do believe for the proxy approach that feature provisioning will be made available to the end user via the web (most likely) at some point, minimizing a user's reliance on their service provider to make changes. I also feel that useful/desirable end-user experiences can occur without specific support for Diversion within proxies. Endpoints that insert and use Diversion only need proxies to pass along the header. I believe Diversion has multiple applications but are they enough to warrant standardization by an IETF WG. I myself can't answer that question. It seems to me a more appropriate WG might be SIPPING. Best Regards, Bert _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 17 10:39:57 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA18718 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 10:39:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DBE144412; Thu, 17 May 2001 10:40:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from kevlar.softarmor.com (dwillis1.directlink.net [63.64.250.82]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9C924440E for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 10:39:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cowboys (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by kevlar.softarmor.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with SMTP id f4H9m7d32586 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 05:48:08 -0400 Message-ID: <001101c0dedf$2c5587d0$01000001@dynamicsoft.com> From: "Dean Willis" To: "IETF SIP (E-mail)" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Subject: [SIP] News flash: draft-ietf-sip-isup-mime-10.txt passed IESG Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 09:39:23 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit draft-ietf-sip-isup-mime-10.txt passed the IESG. That's right, yet another well-wrought SIP document has cleared the IESG and is on its way to the RFC editor for final publication. Thanks, all! -- Dean Willis _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 17 10:46:02 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA18824 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 10:46:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3E6444419; Thu, 17 May 2001 10:45:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from ckmso1.proxy.att.com (ckmso1.att.com [12.20.58.69]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC23644418 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 10:44:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from njb140r1.ems.att.com ([135.65.202.58]) by ckmso1.proxy.att.com (AT&T IPNS/MSO-3.0) with ESMTP id f4HEisC20709; Thu, 17 May 2001 10:44:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from njb140bh2.ems.att.com by njb140r1.ems.att.com (8.8.8+Sun/ATTEMS-1.4.1 sol2) id KAA00226; Thu, 17 May 2001 10:43:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by njb140bh2.ems.att.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 17 May 2001 10:44:54 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Roy, Radhika R" To: Bert Culpepper , "'Bryan Byerly'" , "'Jonathan Rosenberg'" Cc: stlevy@cisco.com, ISlepchin@dynamicsoft.com, patrick_mourot@online.fr, sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] Re: [Sip-implementors] Discussion about Diversion MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 10:44:45 -0400 In reality, the service control features will reside in both places: Endpoints and Network. It will be a mixture of both situations. Assuming this is the practical situation, let us develop the protocol that does not exclude anyone of those situations. In this context, let us have a second look for the "Diversion" service capabilities. Best regards, Radhika R. Roy AT&T -----Original Message----- From: Bert Culpepper [mailto:bert.culpepper@intervoice-brite.com] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 10:30 AM To: 'Bryan Byerly'; 'Jonathan Rosenberg' Cc: stlevy@cisco.com; ISlepchin@dynamicsoft.com; patrick_mourot@online.fr; sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] Re: [Sip-implementors] Discussion about Diversion -----Original Message----- From: Bryan Byerly Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 12:09 PM To: Jonathan Rosenberg Cc: stlevy@cisco.com; byerly@cisco.com; ISlepchin@dynamicsoft.com; patrick_mourot@online.fr; sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: [SIP] Re: [Sip-implementors] Discussion about Diversion > * I would really appreciate voicemail vendors (and voicemail equipment > manufacturers) speaking up on this issue. Are you actually willing to > depend on your carrier to configure your service policy (per > RFC3087)? Are you willing to wait for your carrier to deploy > equipment that can configure the service policy? When your > carrier misconfigures your service policy, who will your customers > blame? What incentive will the carrier have to fix the problem in a > timely fashion? Wouldn't you rather be in control of your own policy > (using a mechanism such as the Diversion I-D)? I can sympathize will "both sides" in this discussion. IMHO, one approach places service control in the network whereas the other supports service control in the endpoints. I myself prefer control in the endpoint, I don't want to rely on any more functionality outside of my box than I have to. And like other feature support defined for SIP, there are multiple approaches. I do believe for the proxy approach that feature provisioning will be made available to the end user via the web (most likely) at some point, minimizing a user's reliance on their service provider to make changes. I also feel that useful/desirable end-user experiences can occur without specific support for Diversion within proxies. Endpoints that insert and use Diversion only need proxies to pass along the header. I believe Diversion has multiple applications but are they enough to warrant standardization by an IETF WG. I myself can't answer that question. It seems to me a more appropriate WG might be SIPPING. Best Regards, Bert _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 17 10:53:12 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA18998 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 10:53:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8330244421; Thu, 17 May 2001 10:50:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from cs.columbia.edu (cs.columbia.edu [128.59.16.20]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 521CD44415 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 10:49:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from conrail.cs.columbia.edu (conrail.cs.columbia.edu [128.59.19.147]) by cs.columbia.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06192; Thu, 17 May 2001 10:49:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from lennox@localhost) by conrail.cs.columbia.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) id KAA68813; Thu, 17 May 2001 10:49:55 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lennox) From: Jonathan Lennox MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <15107.58643.483234.98506@conrail.cs.columbia.edu> To: Jonathan Rosenberg Cc: "'aki.niemi@nokia.com'" , sip@lists.bell-labs.com, brett@broadsoft.com Subject: RE: [SIP] WWW-Authenticate in 2xx responses In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 6.75 under Emacs 19.34.1 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 10:49:55 -0400 (EDT) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thursday, May 17 2001, "Jonathan Rosenberg" wrote to "'aki.niemi@nokia.com', sip@lists.bell-labs.com, Jonathan Rosenberg, brett@broadsoft.com" saying: > Because 2617 > 2543. Digest in rfc2543 is based on rfc2069, which didn't > have this feature. Also note that nextnonce requires state in the server. No it doesn't. The server can encode all the state it needs into the nonce. 2617 mentions the possibility of making your nonce values time-stamp H(time-stamp ":" ETag ":" private-key) where H is a one-way-hash function and ETag is a unique value for the requested entity. The server just has to re-compute the hash after getting the request to make sure it hasn't been forged, and then decide if it thinks the timestamp is recent enough. > There is no Proxy-Authentication-Info defined in rfc2617; if we want such a > thing we will need to define it. Its not clear that we want this. It's not formally defined with a grammar and all, but section 3.6 of 2617 says On subsequent responses, the server sends Proxy-Authentication-Info with directives the same as those for the Authentication-Info header field. so I'd say it's technically there. -- Jonathan Lennox lennox@cs.columbia.edu _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 17 11:43:55 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA20443 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 11:43:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BDDA44411; Thu, 17 May 2001 11:44:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40F9744336 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 11:43:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id LAA15050; Thu, 17 May 2001 11:47:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 17 May 2001 11:43:37 -0400 Message-ID: From: Jonathan Rosenberg To: "'Shail Bhatnagar'" Cc: "'sip@lists.bell-labs.com'" Subject: RE: [SIP] precedence rules for Route, maddr, and R-URI hostname MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 11:43:32 -0400 > -----Original Message----- > From: Shail Bhatnagar [mailto:shbhatna@cisco.com] > Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 5:35 PM > To: Jonathan Rosenberg > Cc: 'sip@lists.bell-labs.com' > Subject: Re: [SIP] precedence rules for Route, maddr, and > R-URI hostname > > > Jonathan, One question related to > this description. If a user agent > is configured to use its local outbound > proxy, does it send entire Route list > (formed from Record-Route and Contact > in 200) to its proxy in the ACK ? ACK for 200 OK is treated no different from a re-INVITE or BYE as far as Route processing goes. So, if the UA has no DNS and always sends all requests to its local outbound proxy without even glancing at the route set, it would send the entire route set in Route headers. If the UA uses the top Route header, it would pop it into the R-URI and then send the rest in the Route headers in the ACK. > > Also, I am trying to think when > would a proxy receive a request > without Route header, maddr of > req-uri is proxy but host portion of > req-uri is not proxy. If I'm using a local outbound proxy for an initial request, and I don't strip the maddr which identifies that proxy. Ranjit wrote: > Hi > I think if a user agent is configured to its local proxy > then need not > send the entire route list to proxy in ACK,, be'se the proxy would > know the route....thru Record-Route header. Egads, no! We are not going to define special case processing for how a proxy gets Route headers. -Jonathan R. --- Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 72 Eagle Rock Ave. Chief Scientist First Floor dynamicsoft East Hanover, NJ 07936 jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 http://www.dynamicsoft.com > > > Jonathan Rosenberg wrote: > > > > Folks, > > > > We need to finally come to conclusion on this nagging problem of the > > precedence rules for the Route header, R-URI maddr, and > R-URI hostname. > > Specifically, when a proxy receives a request, what is the > processing it > > uses to determine how to route it? The issue is linked with > a bunch of very > > related ones, such as how we handle local-outbound proxies > for hosts that > > have no DNS. > > > > Like any problem, we need some requirements for this solution: > > > > 1. a proxy should not need to know that it is a > local-outbound proxy for the > > upstream element (which can be a UA or proxy), for this to work > > 2. Ideally, a subsequent request in a call should follow > the path of proxies > > which record routed. > > 3. the solution should work correctly in the face of spirals > > > > To proceed, I am going to make a strawman. Lets work from > this, and proceed > > by having people point out issues or problems with this > solution, rather > > than proposing completely new ones. > > > > Strawman > > -------- > > > > when a proxy receives a request, it checks for the > existence of a Route > > header. If one exists, that Route header is popped, and > placed into the > > request URI. It is then sent using the procedures of > draft-ietf-sip-srv. If > > no route header is present, the proxy examines the request > URI. If it > > contains an maddr, and this maddr is not an interface that > the proxy is > > listening on, the proxy forwards the request using the procedures of > > draft-ietf-sip-srv on the request URI (this will cause it > to be forwarded to > > the address in the maddr). If the maddr is present, but is > an interface the > > proxy is listening on, the maddr is stripped, and > processing proceeds as if > > it were never there. If there was no maddr, and the domain > of the request > > URI is not a domain the proxy is managing, the procedures of > > draft-ietf-sip-srv are used to forward the request to that > URI. If the > > domain is one the proxy is managing, the request is processed. > > > > Consider a UA which uses a pre-configured local outbound > proxy. It sends an > > INVITE, and then wishes to send a request for the same call > leg. If it has > > obtained a route set for this call leg, it SHOULD pop the > top route entry, > > place it into the request URI, and use that to forward the > request. If the > > proxy is not DNS capable, it MAY alternatively place the > entire route set > > into Route headers (not popping the top URI). It sets the > request URI to the > > same value it used for the initial INVITE, and sends it to its local > > outbound proxy. > > > > One more thing we would need for this to work. The URI > placed into the RR > > header MUST be unique for each unique request URI in the > incoming request, > > but must not equal the URI of the incoming request (adding > an maddr is fine, > > for example. So, the current normal behavior of copying the > R-URI userhost > > into RR, and adding your own port and maddr, meets the > requirement). The > > important implication of this is that when a proxy > record-routes through a > > spiral, the URI in the RR needs to be different each time > through the > > spiral. > > > > This approach solves all of the problems that have been > pointed out, I > > think: > > > > 1. Lets say proxy X is a local outbound proxy for some UA > Y, and Y doesn't > > do DNS. So, when X sends a re-INVITE, it doesn't pop the > top route header. > > This request shows up at X. Since there is a Route header, > X pops it, and > > forwards it there. Of course, thats back to itself. > However, this is a > > SPIRAL, since the incoming request URI is guaranteed not to > be the same as > > the URI in the top Route. So, it looks at the request > again, and if there is > > a Route, sends it on its way. Of course, a smart proxy > could simply notice > > this condition and not actually send it to itself. > > > > 2. When using Route headers through a spiral, the request > URI at each point > > in the spiral is guaranteed to be just as unique as the > original request was > > through the set of proxies. This means that if the origina R-URI was > > different when received twice at the same proxy, the R-URI > from Route will > > be different two. So, the case that Robert raised, where > the requests will > > appear as loops, won't happen. > > > > Comments? > > > > -Jonathan R. > > > > --- > > Jonathan D. Rosenberg 72 Eagle Rock Ave. > > Chief Scientist First Floor > > dynamicsoft East Hanover, NJ 07936 > > jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 > > http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 > > http://www.dynamicsoft.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > > To subscribe to it, send mail to > > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" > in the body. > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 17 11:53:55 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA20748 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 11:53:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FA204440F; Thu, 17 May 2001 11:54:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from commserver.iperia.com (unknown [63.84.167.3]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 800974440F for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 11:53:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by commserver.iperia.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 17 May 2001 11:53:03 -0400 Message-ID: <5143F854B82ED211B05E00104B235F64807AF6@commserver.iperia.com> From: Gordon Ledgard To: "'Bert Culpepper'" Cc: "'Bryan Byerly'" , "'Jonathan Rosenberg'" , stlevy@cisco.com, ISlepchin@dynamicsoft.com, patrick_mourot@online.fr, sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] Re: [Sip-implementors] Discussion about Diversion MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 11:52:53 -0400 Bryan wrote - > * I would really appreciate voicemail vendors (and voicemail equipment > manufacturers) speaking up on this issue. Are you actually willing to > depend on your carrier to configure your service policy (per > RFC3087)? Are you willing to wait for your carrier to deploy > equipment that can configure the service policy? When your > carrier misconfigures your service policy, who will your customers > blame? What incentive will the carrier have to fix the problem in a > timely fashion? Wouldn't you rather be in control of your own policy > (using a mechanism such as the Diversion I-D)? Here's a voicemail vendor speaking up. Would I be willing to depend on a carrier to configure my service policy? That depends entirely on my relationship with the carrier. In many circumstances, our equipment will be purchased by carriers who then resell the voicemail feature to their end customers. In this model, service configuration is very much the carrier's bailiwick. In another model, an independent secondary service provider will sell services (voicemail) directly to end customers, and (as a possibility) they will tell the customer to use the provider's provisioning website to give them XYZ voicemail. I also do not believe that we will ever get to the point, nor will we really wish to, where the endpoint is aware of ALL of the services that it must use, and explicitly specifies them. A couple of thoughts about implicit versus explicit functionality also comes to mind in response to Hennings argument about Diversion creating an implicit service model: Explicit service models make sense when the commands that operate the service can be made generic enough that differing vendors of the service can utilize the same command protocol. I think we can come up with a short list fitting that criteria. Voicemail MIGHT be one of them. But an explicit service (such as "I want to leave a message for user X on voicemail system J with parameters A,B,C") creates a tight binding between the consumer, provider and protocol. Lest I state the obvious, the point I am trying to make is that explicitly driven functionality will soon become outmoded no matter how noble your intent, and applications will forever be drilling into SIP packets to make all sorts of inferences. We must recognize that both implicit and explicit functions will happen in the network, and that neither is evil. Gordon R. Ledgard Principal Software Engineer IPeria, Inc. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 17 13:05:58 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA22544 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 13:05:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B29B344420; Thu, 17 May 2001 13:06:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com [161.44.11.97]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86AA54440C for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 13:05:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dingdong.cisco.com (dingdong.cisco.com [64.102.17.16]) by rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id f4HH4DX08460; Thu, 17 May 2001 13:04:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cisco.com (dhcp-128-107-141-114.cisco.com [128.107.141.114]) by dingdong.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id AGQ29781 (AUTH shbhatna); Thu, 17 May 2001 13:05:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B040448.F81403AF@cisco.com> From: Shail Bhatnagar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathan Rosenberg Cc: "'sip@lists.bell-labs.com'" Subject: Re: [SIP] precedence rules for Route, maddr, and R-URI hostname References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 13:03:04 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jonathan, Thanks for you response. Please see some inline comments. Shail Jonathan Rosenberg wrote: > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Shail Bhatnagar [mailto:shbhatna@cisco.com] > > Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 5:35 PM > > To: Jonathan Rosenberg > > Cc: 'sip@lists.bell-labs.com' > > Subject: Re: [SIP] precedence rules for Route, maddr, and > > R-URI hostname > > > > > > Jonathan, One question related to > > this description. If a user agent > > is configured to use its local outbound > > proxy, does it send entire Route list > > (formed from Record-Route and Contact > > in 200) to its proxy in the ACK ? > > ACK for 200 OK is treated no different from a re-INVITE or BYE as far as > Route processing goes. So, if the UA has no DNS and always sends all > requests to its local outbound proxy without even glancing at the route set, > it would send the entire route set in Route headers. If the UA uses the top > Route header, it would pop it into the R-URI and then send the rest in the > Route headers in the ACK. Does this mean that if the local outbound proxy did a record-route on the INVITE, the topmost Route header in the route list would actually belong to the local outbound proxy and it will have to pop it and actually use the second route entry for forwarding the ACK further ?? > > > > > Also, I am trying to think when > > would a proxy receive a request > > without Route header, maddr of > > req-uri is proxy but host portion of > > req-uri is not proxy. > > If I'm using a local outbound proxy for an initial request, and I don't > strip the maddr which identifies that proxy. Are you saying that a client in domain "xyz.com", when calling sip:abc@abc.com, can do either of the following : INVITE sip:abc@abc.com SIP/2.0 or INVITE sip:abc@abc.com;maddr=proxy.xyz.com SIP/2.0 Thanks, Shail > > Ranjit wrote: > > Hi > > I think if a user agent is configured to its local proxy > > then need not > > send the entire route list to proxy in ACK,, be'se the proxy would > > know the route....thru Record-Route header. > > Egads, no! We are not going to define special case processing for how a > proxy gets Route headers. > > -Jonathan R. > > --- > Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 72 Eagle Rock Ave. > Chief Scientist First Floor > dynamicsoft East Hanover, NJ 07936 > jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 > http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 > http://www.dynamicsoft.com > > > > > > > Jonathan Rosenberg wrote: > > > > > > Folks, > > > > > > We need to finally come to conclusion on this nagging problem of the > > > precedence rules for the Route header, R-URI maddr, and > > R-URI hostname. > > > Specifically, when a proxy receives a request, what is the > > processing it > > > uses to determine how to route it? The issue is linked with > > a bunch of very > > > related ones, such as how we handle local-outbound proxies > > for hosts that > > > have no DNS. > > > > > > Like any problem, we need some requirements for this solution: > > > > > > 1. a proxy should not need to know that it is a > > local-outbound proxy for the > > > upstream element (which can be a UA or proxy), for this to work > > > 2. Ideally, a subsequent request in a call should follow > > the path of proxies > > > which record routed. > > > 3. the solution should work correctly in the face of spirals > > > > > > To proceed, I am going to make a strawman. Lets work from > > this, and proceed > > > by having people point out issues or problems with this > > solution, rather > > > than proposing completely new ones. > > > > > > Strawman > > > -------- > > > > > > when a proxy receives a request, it checks for the > > existence of a Route > > > header. If one exists, that Route header is popped, and > > placed into the > > > request URI. It is then sent using the procedures of > > draft-ietf-sip-srv. If > > > no route header is present, the proxy examines the request > > URI. If it > > > contains an maddr, and this maddr is not an interface that > > the proxy is > > > listening on, the proxy forwards the request using the procedures of > > > draft-ietf-sip-srv on the request URI (this will cause it > > to be forwarded to > > > the address in the maddr). If the maddr is present, but is > > an interface the > > > proxy is listening on, the maddr is stripped, and > > processing proceeds as if > > > it were never there. If there was no maddr, and the domain > > of the request > > > URI is not a domain the proxy is managing, the procedures of > > > draft-ietf-sip-srv are used to forward the request to that > > URI. If the > > > domain is one the proxy is managing, the request is processed. > > > > > > Consider a UA which uses a pre-configured local outbound > > proxy. It sends an > > > INVITE, and then wishes to send a request for the same call > > leg. If it has > > > obtained a route set for this call leg, it SHOULD pop the > > top route entry, > > > place it into the request URI, and use that to forward the > > request. If the > > > proxy is not DNS capable, it MAY alternatively place the > > entire route set > > > into Route headers (not popping the top URI). It sets the > > request URI to the > > > same value it used for the initial INVITE, and sends it to its local > > > outbound proxy. > > > > > > One more thing we would need for this to work. The URI > > placed into the RR > > > header MUST be unique for each unique request URI in the > > incoming request, > > > but must not equal the URI of the incoming request (adding > > an maddr is fine, > > > for example. So, the current normal behavior of copying the > > R-URI userhost > > > into RR, and adding your own port and maddr, meets the > > requirement). The > > > important implication of this is that when a proxy > > record-routes through a > > > spiral, the URI in the RR needs to be different each time > > through the > > > spiral. > > > > > > This approach solves all of the problems that have been > > pointed out, I > > > think: > > > > > > 1. Lets say proxy X is a local outbound proxy for some UA > > Y, and Y doesn't > > > do DNS. So, when X sends a re-INVITE, it doesn't pop the > > top route header. > > > This request shows up at X. Since there is a Route header, > > X pops it, and > > > forwards it there. Of course, thats back to itself. > > However, this is a > > > SPIRAL, since the incoming request URI is guaranteed not to > > be the same as > > > the URI in the top Route. So, it looks at the request > > again, and if there is > > > a Route, sends it on its way. Of course, a smart proxy > > could simply notice > > > this condition and not actually send it to itself. > > > > > > 2. When using Route headers through a spiral, the request > > URI at each point > > > in the spiral is guaranteed to be just as unique as the > > original request was > > > through the set of proxies. This means that if the origina R-URI was > > > different when received twice at the same proxy, the R-URI > > from Route will > > > be different two. So, the case that Robert raised, where > > the requests will > > > appear as loops, won't happen. > > > > > > Comments? > > > > > > -Jonathan R. > > > > > > --- > > > Jonathan D. Rosenberg 72 Eagle Rock Ave. > > > Chief Scientist First Floor > > > dynamicsoft East Hanover, NJ 07936 > > > jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 > > > http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 > > > http://www.dynamicsoft.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > > > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > > > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > > > To subscribe to it, send mail to > > > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" > > in the body. > > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 17 13:34:58 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA23083 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 13:34:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6731144343; Thu, 17 May 2001 13:35:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from sapphire.int.ipverse.com (unknown [65.195.29.42]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B321044336 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 13:34:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from matt.ipverse.com (lsanca1-ar5-211-111.lsanca1.dsl.gtei.net [4.33.211.111]) by sapphire.int.ipverse.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id LB71S1XK; Thu, 17 May 2001 10:34:08 -0700 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20010517102124.0212dec0@mail.ipverse.com> X-Sender: matt@mail.ipverse.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 To: Jonathan Rosenberg From: Matt Holdrege Subject: RE: [Sip-implementors] Re: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of dat e Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com, mankin@east.isi.edu In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 10:33:32 -0700 Comment below... At 11:10 PM 5/16/2001, Jonathan Rosenberg wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Matt Holdrege [mailto:matt@ipverse.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 6:30 PM > > To: Jonathan Rosenberg > > Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com; mankin@east.isi.edu > > Subject: RE: [Sip-implementors] Re: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of > > date > > > > > > At 12:19 AM 5/15/2001, Jonathan Rosenberg wrote: > > >Now, this problem is fixable. As Allison has mentioned > > during IETF 50, all > > >extensions henceforth MUST describe how backwards > > compatibility operates. > > >Therefore, the draft MUST describe how gateways, voicemail > > servers, and > > >anything else that looks at Diversion, would work in its absence. > > > > Jonathan, you mentioned that this was not standards track. > > Why must we > > describe backwards compatibility with any old > > draft-yournamehere-sip-xxx.txt document? > >An informational document that simply describes one vendors approach does >not need to worry about compliance with anything, since its just >informational. > >However, this draft is aimed at becoming a standards track extension, and >thus needs to worry about backwards compatibility. The point is that we cannot know which individual draft will become standards track until it actually becomes standards track. The same goes for official draft-ietf-sip documents. There is a long history in the IETF of documents that are aimed at becoming standards track only to be rejected or significantly changed before they make standards track or even become an official WG document. Again, if someone chooses to implement an individual draft, you cannot expect everyone else to have backwards compatibility with it, no matter what the intention is. Also there seems to be a fair bit of controversy about this draft so I'm not sure you can even make a special exemption in this case. But my concern is more general. Dealing with the progress of the bis draft is hard enough. Let's not burden SIP implementations with "legacy" items that weren't really standards track at the time. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 17 14:31:58 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id OAA24263 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 14:31:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 882B744432; Thu, 17 May 2001 14:32:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from imr2.ericy.com (imr2.ericy.com [12.34.240.68]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83E3E44336 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 14:31:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mr7.exu.ericsson.se (mr7att.ericy.com [138.85.92.15]) by imr2.ericy.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4HIVU810511; Thu, 17 May 2001 13:31:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from newman.exu.ericsson.se (newman.exu.ericsson.se [138.85.75.179]) by mr7.exu.ericsson.se (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4HIVTH08387; Thu, 17 May 2001 13:31:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pc050163 (pc050163.exu.ericsson.se [138.85.50.163]) by newman.exu.ericsson.se (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA24200; Thu, 17 May 2001 13:31:29 -0500 (CDT) From: adam.roach@ericsson.com Reply-To: To: "'Matt Holdrege'" , "Jonathan Rosenberg" Cc: , Subject: RE: [Sip-implementors] Re: [SIP] Draft about diversion out of dat e Message-ID: <61D824C63B99D311975E00508B0CC985022517C2@eamrcnt717.exu.ericsson.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010517102124.0212dec0@mail.ipverse.com> Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 13:31:27 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Matt Holdrege [mailto:matt@ipverse.com] ... > The point is that we cannot know which individual draft will become > standards track until it actually becomes standards track. > The same goes > for official draft-ietf-sip documents. There is a long > history in the IETF > of documents that are aimed at becoming standards track only > to be rejected > or significantly changed before they make standards track or > even become an > official WG document. Again, if someone chooses to implement > an individual > draft, you cannot expect everyone else to have backwards > compatibility with > it, no matter what the intention is. I'll give it a try. Any internet-draft must address backwards compatibility with *published*, *standards track* *RFCs* before it is passed to the IESG for publication. That's it. No one needs to worry about backwards compatibility towards drafts of any kind. Technically, that means that, yes, we could attempt to publish draft as an RFC now which doesn't address any issues arising from backwards compatibility with the rfc2543-bis draft. It would be stupid for us to do so (and we'd never be able to fit it in on the calandar), but there are no procedural issues with our doing so. So, addressing the specific situation under discussion: no one ever needs to address backwards compatibility issues with the diversion draft unless (and even then, until) it is published as a standards track RFC. /a _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 17 16:23:57 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA26396 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 16:23:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23B5C44389; Thu, 17 May 2001 16:24:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from broadsoft.com (broadsoft.com [161.58.239.68]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 907F344336 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 16:23:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tate ([64.243.180.244]) by broadsoft.com (8.11.2) id f4HKNYl79144; Thu, 17 May 2001 16:23:34 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: From: "Brett Tate" To: Subject: RE: [SIP] WWW-Authenticate in 2xx responses Message-ID: <002201c0df0f$966c3030$2b01a8c0@broadsoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 In-Reply-To: Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 16:25:59 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for pointing out Proxy-Authentication-Info and Authentication-Info. They do appear to be better for next nonce than WWW-Authenticate in 2xx responses. Usage of these headers would help improve call setup time and system/network capacity by reducing 401/407 responses from registrars, outbound-proxies, etcetera. Henning/Jonathan: Since authentication and security in the bis is slated for rework anyway, can headers Proxy-Authentication-Info and Authentication-Info be added? If you think that there might not be enough interest, can we ask the list for comments about its need or usefulness? _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 17 17:18:56 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id RAA27340 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 17:18:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A49A44337; Thu, 17 May 2001 17:19:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se (penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [194.237.142.110]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A52444336 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 17:18:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailserver1.ericsson.se (mailserver1.ericsson.se [136.225.152.91]) by penguin.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.11.0/8.10.1/WIREfire-1.3) with ESMTP id f4HLIqO25107 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 23:18:52 +0200 (MEST) Received: from lmf.ericsson.se (racom-sd-2.sd.us.am.ericsson.se [142.133.141.3]) by mailserver1.ericsson.se (8.9.3/8.9.3/eri-1.0) with ESMTP id XAA23873; Thu, 17 May 2001 23:19:04 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <3B04413B.F557BAFA@lmf.ericsson.se> From: Gonzalo Camarillo Organization: Oy L M Ericsson Ab X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Christer Holmberg Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: Re: [SIP] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-isup-01.txt References: <200105151102.HAA20298@ietf.org> <3B03BB57.10017E71@lmf.ericsson.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 00:23:07 +0300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I believe that this behavior is vanilla SIP, isn't it? We use the Contact/Route in provisional responses for an INVITE to send requests (typically PRACK, COMET and/or INFO) until we get the 200 OK for the INVITE with the definitive Route/Contact for the session. Why would you think we should add this in the ISUP-SIP draft? Regards, Gonzalo Christer Holmberg wrote: > > Hi, > > I have a comment about the ISUP-SIP draft, related to SIP-T. > > When PRACK is used, the UAS MUST include a Contact header and a To tag > in the 18x provisional responses. > > I think it should also be a MUST for an UAS supporting SIP-T, since the > UAC may send an INFO before it has received a final response for the > INVITE. This would ensure that the INFO reaches the same node from where > the 18x provisional response came, if the INVITE was forked. > > Comments? > > Regards, > > Christer Holmberg > Ericsson Finland -- Gonzalo Camarillo Phone : +1 212 939 71 71 Columbia University Mobile: +358 40 702 35 35 472 Computer Science Building Fax : +358 9 299 30 52 1214 Amsterdam Ave., Mail Code 0401 http://www.hut.fi/~gonzalo New York, NY 10027 USA Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 18 01:06:58 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id BAA05425 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 01:06:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D157D44343; Fri, 18 May 2001 01:07:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from bgl1ml1-a.sancharnet.in (bgl1ml2-a-fixed.sancharnet.in [61.1.128.36]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A736244337 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 01:06:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from voyager.sankartech ([61.1.217.250]) by bgl1ml1-a.sancharnet.in (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA5787ED for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 10:39:01 -0500 Received: by VOYAGER with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 18 May 2001 10:38:42 +0530 Message-ID: From: Sameer sheth To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [SIP] General Query regarding SIP Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 10:38:33 +0530 Hi I am new to this group and also to this domain. I have very few basic queries regarding SIP and I would like you to help me out. Please do reply as soon as possible 1) What role does User Agent plays ? Is it necessary that only through User Agent we can contact the SIP Server ? if yes then how does the ordinary Telephone, which everyone at their residences use can get connected ? 2) Can a ordinary Telephone, which everyone at their residences have can contact SIP Server ? and from there interact with other SIP USERS ? 3) When I transmit Voice over SIP which use TCP/IP, what role does SIP play at that time ? I thank you in advance for your kind help and time. I would really appreciate if you could reply back to me as soon as possible. Thanking you Regards > ----------------------------------- > Sameer.Sheth > Analysts > Justvox ---> We(b) Speak, Your Way > T/F: +91-422-446127 / 456753 > > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 18 01:27:58 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id BAA06809 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 01:27:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8432B443BC; Fri, 18 May 2001 01:28:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from albatross-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se (albatross-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [194.237.142.116]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 355C6443A6 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 01:27:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fogerty.lmf.ericsson.se (fogerty.lmf.ericsson.se [131.160.11.6]) by albatross.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.11.0/8.11.0/WIREfire-1.3) with ESMTP id f4I5RZN02725 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 07:27:35 +0200 (MEST) Received: from lmf.ericsson.se (E005004B52C74.lmf.ericsson.se [131.160.30.161]) by fogerty.lmf.ericsson.se (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4I5RZJ16874; Fri, 18 May 2001 08:27:35 +0300 (EET DST) Message-ID: <3B04B2C2.2F0F80B0@lmf.ericsson.se> From: Christer Holmberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gonzalo Camarillo Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: Re: [SIP] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-isup-01.txt References: <200105151102.HAA20298@ietf.org> <3B03BB57.10017E71@lmf.ericsson.se> <3B04413B.F557BAFA@lmf.ericsson.se> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------F0BBF6992B562EDE6AF596C4" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 08:27:30 +0300 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F0BBF6992B562EDE6AF596C4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, >I believe that this behavior is vanilla SIP, isn't it? I don't think it is mandatory (I appologise if I'm wrong) to include a Contact header in a 18x provisional responses, and to include a To-tag in a 18x provisional response. From a basic SIP standard point of view it's optional, but different extension functionalities (eg PRACK and SIP-T) can then make it mandatory. >We use the Contact/Route in provisional responses for an INVITE to send >requests (typically PRACK, COMET and/or INFO) until we get the 200 OK >for the INVITE with the definitive Route/Contact for the session. Why >would you think we should add this in the ISUP-SIP draft? It is nowhere said that we use Contact/Route in provisional responses for these kind of requests - no matter what request it is. Yes, the 100rel draft says it for PRACK, and the manyfolks draft may say it for COMET, but I haven't seen it anywhere for INFO. My point was that I wanted to make it a MUST, or at least a SHOULD, for nodes supporting SIP-T, to make sure that any possible INFO sent by the UAC before the 200 is received reaches the same UAS, and that is why I wanted to add it to the ISUP-SIP draft. ...or, it should be added to the bis draft that this is a MUST always when the UAC may send a new request (PRACK, COMET, INFO, whatever...) before the final response is received. Regards, Christer Holmberg Ericsson Finland > Hello, > > > > Regards, > > Gonzalo > > Christer Holmberg wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I have a comment about the ISUP-SIP draft, related to SIP-T. > > > > When PRACK is used, the UAS MUST include a Contact header and a To tag > > in the 18x provisional responses. > > > > I think it should also be a MUST for an UAS supporting SIP-T, since the > > UAC may send an INFO before it has received a final response for the > > INVITE. This would ensure that the INFO reaches the same node from where > > the 18x provisional response came, if the INVITE was forked. > > > > Comments? > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer Holmberg > > Ericsson Finland > > -- > Gonzalo Camarillo Phone : +1 212 939 71 71 > Columbia University Mobile: +358 40 702 35 35 > 472 Computer Science Building Fax : +358 9 299 30 52 > 1214 Amsterdam Ave., Mail Code 0401 http://www.hut.fi/~gonzalo > New York, NY 10027 > USA Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com --------------F0BBF6992B562EDE6AF596C4 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="christer.holmberg.vcf" Content-Description: Card for Christer Holmberg Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="christer.holmberg.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit begin:vcard n:Holmberg;Christer tel;cell:+358-40-5604412 tel;work:+358-9-2992943 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Ericsson;IP Multimedia / Advanced Signalling Research Laboratory adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 email;internet:christer.holmberg@lmf.ericsson.se title:System Designer fn:Christer Holmberg end:vcard --------------F0BBF6992B562EDE6AF596C4-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 18 02:30:58 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id CAA17629 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 02:30:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB28344337; Fri, 18 May 2001 02:31:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from cyclops.soft.net (relay1.soft.net [164.164.128.17]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB8A844336 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 02:30:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from email.eximsoft.com ([164.164.87.130]) by cyclops.soft.net (Switch-2.0.1/Switch-2.0.1) with ESMTP id f4IGYfK26660 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 11:34:41 -0500 (GMT) Received: from ewsuc123 (unknown [10.10.10.132]) by email.eximsoft.com (Postfix) with SMTP id AA89D690F5 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 11:59:45 +0530 (IST) Message-ID: <003e01c0df64$72b78f90$840a0a0a@exim.com> From: "Hrishikesh Saria" To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003B_01C0DF92.8C608950" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Subject: [SIP] drafts NAT ALG RSIP Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 12:03:27 +0530 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C0DF92.8C608950 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Where can i find the current drafts about SIP with NAT or SIP with RSIP = which are currently being discussed. Regards Thanks in advance Hrishikesh Saria ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C0DF92.8C608950 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
 
Where can i find the current drafts = about SIP with=20 NAT  or SIP with RSIP which are currently being = discussed.
 
Regards
Thanks in advance
Hrishikesh = Saria
------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C0DF92.8C608950-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 18 03:24:58 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id DAA20229 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 03:24:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A34DE44337; Fri, 18 May 2001 03:25:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from albatross-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se (albatross-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [194.237.142.116]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E85E44336 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 03:24:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from esealnt462.al.sw.ericsson.se (ESEALNT462.al.sw.ericsson.se [153.88.251.62]) by albatross.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.11.0/8.11.0/WIREfire-1.3) with SMTP id f4I7O4N09405 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 09:24:04 +0200 (MEST) Received: FROM esealnt742.al.sw.ericsson.se BY esealnt462.al.sw.ericsson.se ; Fri May 18 09:23:06 2001 +0200 Received: by esealnt742.al.sw.ericsson.se with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 18 May 2001 09:18:03 +0200 Message-ID: From: "Stefan Runeson (ECS)" To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [SIP] Record-Route in ACK Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 09:23:22 +0200 Hi, In rfc2543bis-02 Table 5 is stated that the Record-Route header is optional for _all_ methods. However, if the Record-Route header is used for ACK there might be a problem, since ACK has no response to carry the Record-Route header back. This might result in different routes for the different directions of the message flow of the same call-leg. I think that Record-Route header should be stated "Not applicable" for ACK. BR Stefan Runeson Ericsson Mobile Communications AB S - 221 83 Lund SWEDEN E-mail: mailto:Stefan.Runeson@ecs.ericsson.se Phone: +46 46 19 39 38 _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 18 07:15:57 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id HAA22460 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 07:15:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B353443EB; Fri, 18 May 2001 07:16:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from hs004.hotsip.com (unknown [212.28.214.197]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90CB444370 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 07:15:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from RYMDIS (dhcp013.hotsip.com [212.28.214.213]) by hs004.hotsip.com (8.11.0/8.11.0/SuSE Linux 8.11.0-0.4) with SMTP id f4IBFm619231 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 13:15:48 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: hs004.hotsip.com: Host dhcp013.hotsip.com [212.28.214.213] claimed to be RYMDIS Message-ID: <0b0301c0df8c$11bd7ba0$d5d61cd4@RYMDIS> From: "Christian Jansson" To: References: Subject: Re: [SIP] Record-Route in ACK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 13:17:05 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We can't make rules for every weird situation that can happen. I think that a server that Record-Routes the ACK without Record-Routing the INVITE is one of those weird situations that shouldn't be dealt with because any sane implementation would not do such a thing. Christian Jansson Hostip www.hotsip.com > Hi, > > In rfc2543bis-02 Table 5 is stated that the Record-Route header is optional for _all_ methods. However, if the Record-Route header is used for ACK there might be a problem, since ACK has no response to carry the Record-Route header back. This might result in different routes for the different directions of the message flow of the same call-leg. I think that Record-Route header should be stated "Not applicable" for ACK. > > BR > Stefan Runeson > Ericsson Mobile Communications AB > S - 221 83 Lund > SWEDEN > > E-mail: mailto:Stefan.Runeson@ecs.ericsson.se > Phone: +46 46 19 39 38 > > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 18 09:21:57 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA26206 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 09:21:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09B8A4433D; Fri, 18 May 2001 09:22:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se (penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [194.237.142.110]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5B3B44336 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 09:21:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from esealnt406.al.sw.ericsson.se (ESEALNT406.al.sw.ericsson.se [153.88.251.29]) by penguin.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.11.0/8.10.1/WIREfire-1.3) with SMTP id f4IDLlO18719 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 15:21:48 +0200 (MEST) Received: FROM esealnt400.al.sw.ericsson.se BY esealnt406.al.sw.ericsson.se ; Fri May 18 15:21:42 2001 +0200 Received: by esealnt400 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 18 May 2001 15:21:41 +0200 Message-ID: From: "Stefan Runeson (ECS)" To: "'Christian Jansson'" , sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] Record-Route in ACK MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 15:22:03 +0200 Hi, >We can't make rules for every weird situation that can happen. I think that >a server that Record-Routes the ACK without Record-Routing the INVITE is one >of those weird situations that shouldn't be dealt with because any sane >implementation would not do such a thing. Nevertheless I saw this happen at the latest SIP Bake-off. BR Stefan Runeson Ericsson Mobile Communications AB S - 221 83 Lund SWEDEN E-mail: mailto:Stefan.Runeson@ecs.ericsson.se Phone: +46 46 19 39 38 _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 18 11:16:56 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA28606 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 11:16:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 361334444E; Fri, 18 May 2001 11:17:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mailweb4.rediffmail.com (unknown [202.54.124.149]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 7D9E74444E for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 11:16:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 14430 invoked by uid 510); 18 May 2001 15:21:59 -0000 Message-ID: <20010518152159.14429.qmail@mailweb4.rediffmail.com> Received: from unknown (203.145.133.130) by rediffmail.com via HTTP; 18 May 2001 15:21:59 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sip@lists.bell-labs.com" From: "kumar s" Content-ID: Content-type: text/plain Content-Description: Body Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [SIP] timeout value for response Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: 18 May 2001 15:21:59 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, what is the recommended 'timeout value' for a sipstack to wait for a response. In particular, what is the recommended time the sipstack would wait for an ACK for a 200 OK. Thanks S.Kumarconfirm 748539 _____________________________________________________ Chat with your friends as soon as they come online. Get Rediff Bol at http://bol.rediff.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 18 12:03:55 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA29641 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 12:03:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83A1144456; Fri, 18 May 2001 12:04:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se (penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [194.237.142.110]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D226C44456 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 12:03:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailserver1.ericsson.se (mailserver1.ericsson.se [136.225.152.91]) by penguin.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.11.0/8.10.1/WIREfire-1.3) with ESMTP id f4IG35O22986 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 18:03:05 +0200 (MEST) Received: from lmf.ericsson.se (racom-bo-6.bo.us.am.ericsson.se [138.85.235.236]) by mailserver1.ericsson.se (8.9.3/8.9.3/eri-1.0) with ESMTP id SAA13284; Fri, 18 May 2001 18:03:17 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <3B0548BD.1C748EA9@lmf.ericsson.se> From: Gonzalo Camarillo Organization: Oy L M Ericsson Ab X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Christer Holmberg Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: Re: [SIP] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-isup-01.txt References: <200105151102.HAA20298@ietf.org> <3B03BB57.10017E71@lmf.ericsson.se> <3B04413B.F557BAFA@lmf.ericsson.se> <3B04B2C2.2F0F80B0@lmf.ericsson.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 19:07:25 +0300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, As I said in my previous mail, this is a general SIP question. It has nothing to do with the fact that you use SIP-T or that you are a gateway. The general question you are after is: "Where do I send requests if the INVITE transaction is not complete yet?". I believe that bis should say that typically no requests are sent before the INVITE terminates, but that there are a few exceptions, namely: PRACK, COMET and INFO. Then, it can be explained in bis or in the RFCs defining the extensions where to send the requests (Route/Contact of provisional responses). So, answering this question is up to bis and the drafts/RFCs defining the extensions themself, but never up to the isup-sip mapping draft. We do not explain how to locate a SIP server either, because bis deals with it already. Let's not try to make the scope of the mapping draft wider. Its scope is good as it is right now. Best regards, Gonzalo Christer Holmberg wrote: > > Hi, > > >I believe that this behavior is vanilla SIP, isn't it? > > I don't think it is mandatory (I appologise if I'm wrong) to include a > Contact header in a 18x provisional responses, and to include a To-tag > in a 18x provisional response. From a basic SIP standard point of view > it's optional, but different extension functionalities (eg PRACK and > SIP-T) can then make it mandatory. > > >We use the Contact/Route in provisional responses for an INVITE to send > >requests (typically PRACK, COMET and/or INFO) until we get the 200 OK > >for the INVITE with the definitive Route/Contact for the session. Why > >would you think we should add this in the ISUP-SIP draft? > > It is nowhere said that we use Contact/Route in provisional responses > for these kind of requests - no matter what request it is. Yes, the > 100rel draft says it for PRACK, and the manyfolks draft may say it for > COMET, but I haven't seen it anywhere for INFO. > > My point was that I wanted to make it a MUST, or at least a SHOULD, for > nodes supporting SIP-T, to make sure that any possible INFO sent by the > UAC before the 200 is received reaches the same UAS, and that is why I > wanted to add it to the ISUP-SIP draft. > > ...or, it should be added to the bis draft that this is a MUST always > when the UAC may send a new request (PRACK, COMET, INFO, whatever...) > before the final response is received. > > Regards, > > Christer Holmberg > Ericsson Finland > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Gonzalo > > > > Christer Holmberg wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I have a comment about the ISUP-SIP draft, related to SIP-T. > > > > > > When PRACK is used, the UAS MUST include a Contact header and a To tag > > > in the 18x provisional responses. > > > > > > I think it should also be a MUST for an UAS supporting SIP-T, since the > > > UAC may send an INFO before it has received a final response for the > > > INVITE. This would ensure that the INFO reaches the same node from where > > > the 18x provisional response came, if the INVITE was forked. > > > > > > Comments? > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Christer Holmberg > > > Ericsson Finland > > > > -- > > Gonzalo Camarillo Phone : +1 212 939 71 71 > > Columbia University Mobile: +358 40 702 35 35 > > 472 Computer Science Building Fax : +358 9 299 30 52 > > 1214 Amsterdam Ave., Mail Code 0401 http://www.hut.fi/~gonzalo > > New York, NY 10027 > > USA Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com -- Gonzalo Camarillo Phone : +1 212 939 71 71 Columbia University Mobile: +358 40 702 35 35 472 Computer Science Building Fax : +358 9 299 30 52 1214 Amsterdam Ave., Mail Code 0401 http://www.hut.fi/~gonzalo New York, NY 10027 USA Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 18 14:15:58 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id OAA10418 for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 14:15:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31D104434B; Fri, 18 May 2001 14:16:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mail.inetmail.att.net (mailhost2.inetmail.att.net [204.127.132.34]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DCEE4433D for ; Fri, 18 May 2001 14:15:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashok ([12.41.17.196]) by mail.inetmail.att.net (mtiagic02) with SMTP id <20010518181519gi2031895de>; Fri, 18 May 2001 18:15:19 +0000 Message-ID: <015e01c0dfc7$160fe400$c411290c@masconit.com> Reply-To: "Ranjit Avasarala" From: "Ranjit Avasarala" To: , "kumar s" References: <20010518152159.14429.qmail@mailweb4.rediffmail.com> Subject: Re: [SIP] timeout value for response MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 13:19:31 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi if u don't want the sip stack to timeout and want it to wait for infinite time for the ACK then give the value -1. and 0 for asynchronous receive. Regards Ranjit Mascon Communication Technologies http://www.masconit.com ----- Original Message ----- From: kumar s To: Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 10:21 AM Subject: [SIP] timeout value for response Hello All, what is the recommended 'timeout value' for a sipstack to wait for a response. In particular, what is the recommended time the sipstack would wait for an ACK for a 200 OK. Thanks S.Kumarconfirm 748539 _____________________________________________________ Chat with your friends as soon as they come online. Get Rediff Bol at http://bol.rediff.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Sun May 20 12:50:56 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA11592 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 12:50:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4072644338; Sun, 20 May 2001 12:51:07 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se (penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [194.237.142.110]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C947044337 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 12:50:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fogerty.lmf.ericsson.se (fogerty.lmf.ericsson.se [131.160.11.6]) by penguin.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.11.0/8.10.1/WIREfire-1.3) with ESMTP id f4KGoxO26380 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 18:50:59 +0200 (MEST) Received: from lmf.ericsson.se (lmf05397pc.lmf.ericsson.se [131.160.106.10]) by fogerty.lmf.ericsson.se (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4KGovJ08819; Sun, 20 May 2001 19:50:57 +0300 (EET DST) Message-ID: <3B07F608.33B040AD@lmf.ericsson.se> From: Christer Holmberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gonzalo Camarillo Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: Re: [SIP] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-isup-01.txt References: <200105151102.HAA20298@ietf.org> <3B03BB57.10017E71@lmf.ericsson.se> <3B04413B.F557BAFA@lmf.ericsson.se> <3B04B2C2.2F0F80B0@lmf.ericsson.se> <3B0548BD.1C748EA9@lmf.ericsson.se> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------A98EAF33C4E5AE1AD0DFDA77" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 19:51:20 +0300 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A98EAF33C4E5AE1AD0DFDA77 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I agree with what you say. So, one could argue that it should be said in the INFO RFC instead of the ISUP-SIP draft. HOWEVER, the INFO RFC says (unfortunately, I think...) that INFO is used for mid-session (ie AFTER the INVITE transaction is finished) only, so one could say it is not an issue there. Then, since the ISUP-SIP draft is the first (and currently only) SIP extension that may also use INFO BEFORE the INVITE transaction is finished, one could argue that it should be said there. The third option is, like you mentioned, to put it as a general rule in the bis draft, for ANY request that may be sent before the INVITE transaction is finished. My point is, that since it may cause problems for SIP-T, I want it mentioned SOMEWHERE :) Regards, Christer Holmberg Ericsson Finland Gonzalo Camarillo wrote: > > Hello, > > As I said in my previous mail, this is a general SIP question. It has > nothing to do with the fact that you use SIP-T or that you are a > gateway. > > The general question you are after is: "Where do I send requests if the > INVITE transaction is not complete yet?". > > I believe that bis should say that typically no requests are sent before > the INVITE terminates, but that there are a few exceptions, namely: > PRACK, COMET and INFO. > > Then, it can be explained in bis or in the RFCs defining the extensions > where to send the requests (Route/Contact of provisional responses). > > So, answering this question is up to bis and the drafts/RFCs defining > the extensions themself, but never up to the isup-sip mapping draft. We > do not explain how to locate a SIP server either, because bis deals with > it already. Let's not try to make the scope of the mapping draft wider. > Its scope is good as it is right now. > > Best regards, > > Gonzalo > > Christer Holmberg wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > >I believe that this behavior is vanilla SIP, isn't it? > > > > I don't think it is mandatory (I appologise if I'm wrong) to include a > > Contact header in a 18x provisional responses, and to include a To-tag > > in a 18x provisional response. From a basic SIP standard point of view > > it's optional, but different extension functionalities (eg PRACK and > > SIP-T) can then make it mandatory. > > > > >We use the Contact/Route in provisional responses for an INVITE to send > > >requests (typically PRACK, COMET and/or INFO) until we get the 200 OK > > >for the INVITE with the definitive Route/Contact for the session. Why > > >would you think we should add this in the ISUP-SIP draft? > > > > It is nowhere said that we use Contact/Route in provisional responses > > for these kind of requests - no matter what request it is. Yes, the > > 100rel draft says it for PRACK, and the manyfolks draft may say it for > > COMET, but I haven't seen it anywhere for INFO. > > > > My point was that I wanted to make it a MUST, or at least a SHOULD, for > > nodes supporting SIP-T, to make sure that any possible INFO sent by the > > UAC before the 200 is received reaches the same UAS, and that is why I > > wanted to add it to the ISUP-SIP draft. > > > > ...or, it should be added to the bis draft that this is a MUST always > > when the UAC may send a new request (PRACK, COMET, INFO, whatever...) > > before the final response is received. > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer Holmberg > > Ericsson Finland > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Gonzalo > > > > > > Christer Holmberg wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > I have a comment about the ISUP-SIP draft, related to SIP-T. > > > > > > > > When PRACK is used, the UAS MUST include a Contact header and a To tag > > > > in the 18x provisional responses. > > > > > > > > I think it should also be a MUST for an UAS supporting SIP-T, since the > > > > UAC may send an INFO before it has received a final response for the > > > > INVITE. This would ensure that the INFO reaches the same node from where > > > > the 18x provisional response came, if the INVITE was forked. > > > > > > > > Comments? > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Christer Holmberg > > > > Ericsson Finland > > > > > > -- > > > Gonzalo Camarillo Phone : +1 212 939 71 71 > > > Columbia University Mobile: +358 40 702 35 35 > > > 472 Computer Science Building Fax : +358 9 299 30 52 > > > 1214 Amsterdam Ave., Mail Code 0401 http://www.hut.fi/~gonzalo > > > New York, NY 10027 > > > USA Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com > > -- > Gonzalo Camarillo Phone : +1 212 939 71 71 > Columbia University Mobile: +358 40 702 35 35 > 472 Computer Science Building Fax : +358 9 299 30 52 > 1214 Amsterdam Ave., Mail Code 0401 http://www.hut.fi/~gonzalo > New York, NY 10027 > USA Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. --------------A98EAF33C4E5AE1AD0DFDA77 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="christer.holmberg.vcf" Content-Description: Card for Christer Holmberg Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="christer.holmberg.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit begin:vcard n:Holmberg;Christer tel;cell:+358-40-5604412 tel;work:+358-9-2992943 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Ericsson;IP Multimedia / Advanced Signalling Research Laboratory adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 email;internet:christer.holmberg@lmf.ericsson.se title:System Designer fn:Christer Holmberg end:vcard --------------A98EAF33C4E5AE1AD0DFDA77-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Sun May 20 15:37:54 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id PAA12429 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 15:37:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA59844338; Sun, 20 May 2001 15:38:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from web4804.mail.yahoo.com (web4804.mail.yahoo.com [216.115.105.246]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 8282F44337 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 15:37:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <20010520193719.2020.qmail@web4804.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [65.15.28.6] by web4804.mail.yahoo.com; Sun, 20 May 2001 12:37:19 PDT From: Jose Martinez Subject: Re: [SIP] timeout value for response To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com In-Reply-To: <015e01c0dfc7$160fe400$c411290c@masconit.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 12:37:19 -0700 (PDT) Ranjit, I dont want our SIP Proxy to timeout neither. But we our using a dynamicsoft proxy. Will setting the timeout to -1 or 0 set the timout to infinity on the dynaimcsoft SIP stack. Thnx a lot. Jose --- Ranjit Avasarala wrote: > Hi > if u don't want the sip stack to timeout and > want it to wait for > infinite time for the ACK then give the value -1. > and 0 for > asynchronous receive. > > Regards > Ranjit > Mascon Communication Technologies > http://www.masconit.com > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: kumar s > To: > Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 10:21 AM > Subject: [SIP] timeout value for response > > > Hello All, > > what is the recommended 'timeout value' for a > sipstack to wait for a > response. > > In particular, what is the recommended time the > sipstack would wait for an > ACK for a 200 OK. > > Thanks > > S.Kumarconfirm 748539 > > _____________________________________________________ > Chat with your friends as soon as they come online. > Get Rediff Bol at > http://bol.rediff.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP > protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss > implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with > "subscribe" in the body. > > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP > protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss > implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with > "subscribe" in the body. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? 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From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Sun May 20 16:54:57 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA12804 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 16:54:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A0A244338; Sun, 20 May 2001 16:55:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53C2544337 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 16:54:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id QAA01489; Sun, 20 May 2001 16:58:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B082EFD.A481DE1@dynamicsoft.com> From: Anders Kristensen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bryan Byerly Cc: Jonathan Rosenberg , stlevy@cisco.com, ISlepchin@dynamicsoft.com, patrick_mourot@online.fr, sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: Re: [SIP] Re: [Sip-implementors] Discussion about Diversion References: <3B02A61D.57DE8DCE@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 16:54:21 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bryan Byerly wrote: > > Jonathan Rosenberg wrote: > > > OK, now to some nitty gritty issues I have with Diversion. It says > > that the > > proxies only insert the Diversion header when the call is diverted, > > which is > > defined as: > > > > diversion: A change to the ultimate destination endpoint > > of a request. A change in the Request-URI of a > > request that was not caused by a routing > > decision. > > This is also sometimes called a deflection or > > redirection. > > A diversion can occur when the "user" portion of the > > Request-URI is changed for a reason other than > > expansion or translation. > > > > Now, I would be really impressed if someone can tell me how to > > program a > > proxy to know the difference between a routing decision that changes > > the > > ultimate destination, and one that does not. In SIP, we make no > > distinction > > between the two. > > One suggestion is to apply the same algorithm that we use for spiral > loop detection. If the user portion of the (sip:user@host) URL does > not change, then consider it a simple routing decision (that does not > require a Diversion header). If the user portion of the > (sip:user@host) URL does change, then add a Diversion header. I have at least 5 different email addresses that I use in various contexts. None of them have the same user part. I don't think the heuristic you're proposing is going to be very effective in eliminating "routing decisions" changes to request URLs. Hence you end up with all the problems listed by Jonathan. -- Anders Kristensen _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Sun May 20 17:12:54 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id RAA13086 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 17:12:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DF824434B; Sun, 20 May 2001 17:13:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from sj-msg-core-4.cisco.com (sj-msg-core-4.cisco.com [171.71.163.10]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EF9244338 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 17:12:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sj-msg-av-2.cisco.com (sj-msg-av-2.cisco.com [171.69.24.12]) by sj-msg-core-4.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id f4KLCjU07660 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 14:12:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailman.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sj-msg-av-2.cisco.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f4KLCda05653 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 14:12:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cisco.com (ssh-sj1.cisco.com [171.68.225.134]) by mailman.cisco.com (8.9.3/CISCO.SERVER.1.2) with ESMTP id OAA16235 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 14:12:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B08338A.39F7F45B@cisco.com> From: Flemming Andreasen Organization: Cisco Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SIP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [SIP] Updated privacy draft (draft-ietf-sip-privacy-02.txt) Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 17:13:47 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings In preparation for the WG last call on the privacy draft, I have updated it to address the comments I received at the last IETF as well as a couple of off-line comments I got. The updates are: - Additional security considerations including a more clear description of the assumed architecture within which the privacy parts of the draft can and can not be used. - Interaction with vanilla SIP proxies that do not support the extension - IANA considerations for registering extensions - Added prefix naming convention for "other-rpi-token" to indicate whether an "other-rpi-token" extension affects verification or not. - Included a new "other-rpi-token" to identify Nature of Party. You can retrieve the document at http://members.bellatlantic.net/~fandreas/IETF/SIP/draft-ietf-sip-privacy-02.txt until it appears in the archives. Regards Flemming -- Flemming Andreasen Cisco Systems _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Sun May 20 21:12:53 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id VAA14659 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 21:12:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09FFC4434B; Sun, 20 May 2001 21:13:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se (penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [194.237.142.110]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7880344338 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 21:12:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailserver1.ericsson.se (mailserver1.ericsson.se [136.225.152.91]) by penguin.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.11.0/8.10.1/WIREfire-1.3) with ESMTP id f4L1CTO02178 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 03:12:30 +0200 (MEST) Received: from lmf.ericsson.se (racom107018.am.ericsson.se [147.117.107.18]) by mailserver1.ericsson.se (8.9.3/8.9.3/eri-1.0) with ESMTP id DAA15078; Mon, 21 May 2001 03:12:43 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <3B086C90.DA77C2FD@lmf.ericsson.se> From: Gonzalo Camarillo Organization: Oy L M Ericsson Ab X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Christer Holmberg Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: Re: [SIP] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-isup-01.txt References: <200105151102.HAA20298@ietf.org> <3B03BB57.10017E71@lmf.ericsson.se> <3B04413B.F557BAFA@lmf.ericsson.se> <3B04B2C2.2F0F80B0@lmf.ericsson.se> <3B0548BD.1C748EA9@lmf.ericsson.se> <3B07F608.33B040AD@lmf.ericsson.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 04:17:04 +0300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, The purpose of INFO (before everybody began thinking that INFO can be used for everything in the world) was to transport PSTN signalling. However, since the INFO RFC was issued before we were ready with the mapping draft, some minor changes will have to be added when INFO advances to draft standard. About a general comment in the bis draft (about where to send requests before the 200 OK), as I said, I think it is necessary. Regards, Gonzalo Christer Holmberg wrote: > > Hi, > > I agree with what you say. > > So, one could argue that it should be said in the INFO RFC instead of > the ISUP-SIP draft. > > HOWEVER, the INFO RFC says (unfortunately, I think...) that INFO is used > for mid-session (ie AFTER the INVITE transaction is finished) only, so > one could say it is not an issue there. Then, since the ISUP-SIP draft > is the first (and currently only) SIP extension that may also use INFO > BEFORE the INVITE transaction is finished, one could argue that it > should be said there. The third option is, like you mentioned, to put it > as a general rule in the bis draft, for ANY request that may be sent > before the INVITE transaction is finished. > > My point is, that since it may cause problems for SIP-T, I want it > mentioned SOMEWHERE :) > > Regards, > > Christer Holmberg > Ericsson Finland > > Gonzalo Camarillo wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > As I said in my previous mail, this is a general SIP question. It has > > nothing to do with the fact that you use SIP-T or that you are a > > gateway. > > > > The general question you are after is: "Where do I send requests if the > > INVITE transaction is not complete yet?". > > > > I believe that bis should say that typically no requests are sent before > > the INVITE terminates, but that there are a few exceptions, namely: > > PRACK, COMET and INFO. > > > > Then, it can be explained in bis or in the RFCs defining the extensions > > where to send the requests (Route/Contact of provisional responses). > > > > So, answering this question is up to bis and the drafts/RFCs defining > > the extensions themself, but never up to the isup-sip mapping draft. We > > do not explain how to locate a SIP server either, because bis deals with > > it already. Let's not try to make the scope of the mapping draft wider. > > Its scope is good as it is right now. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Gonzalo > > > > Christer Holmberg wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > >I believe that this behavior is vanilla SIP, isn't it? > > > > > > I don't think it is mandatory (I appologise if I'm wrong) to include a > > > Contact header in a 18x provisional responses, and to include a To-tag > > > in a 18x provisional response. From a basic SIP standard point of view > > > it's optional, but different extension functionalities (eg PRACK and > > > SIP-T) can then make it mandatory. > > > > > > >We use the Contact/Route in provisional responses for an INVITE to send > > > >requests (typically PRACK, COMET and/or INFO) until we get the 200 OK > > > >for the INVITE with the definitive Route/Contact for the session. Why > > > >would you think we should add this in the ISUP-SIP draft? > > > > > > It is nowhere said that we use Contact/Route in provisional responses > > > for these kind of requests - no matter what request it is. Yes, the > > > 100rel draft says it for PRACK, and the manyfolks draft may say it for > > > COMET, but I haven't seen it anywhere for INFO. > > > > > > My point was that I wanted to make it a MUST, or at least a SHOULD, for > > > nodes supporting SIP-T, to make sure that any possible INFO sent by the > > > UAC before the 200 is received reaches the same UAS, and that is why I > > > wanted to add it to the ISUP-SIP draft. > > > > > > ...or, it should be added to the bis draft that this is a MUST always > > > when the UAC may send a new request (PRACK, COMET, INFO, whatever...) > > > before the final response is received. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Christer Holmberg > > > Ericsson Finland > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Gonzalo > > > > > > > > Christer Holmberg wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > I have a comment about the ISUP-SIP draft, related to SIP-T. > > > > > > > > > > When PRACK is used, the UAS MUST include a Contact header and a To tag > > > > > in the 18x provisional responses. > > > > > > > > > > I think it should also be a MUST for an UAS supporting SIP-T, since the > > > > > UAC may send an INFO before it has received a final response for the > > > > > INVITE. This would ensure that the INFO reaches the same node from where > > > > > the 18x provisional response came, if the INVITE was forked. > > > > > > > > > > Comments? > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Christer Holmberg > > > > > Ericsson Finland > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Gonzalo Camarillo Phone : +1 212 939 71 71 > > > > Columbia University Mobile: +358 40 702 35 35 > > > > 472 Computer Science Building Fax : +358 9 299 30 52 > > > > 1214 Amsterdam Ave., Mail Code 0401 http://www.hut.fi/~gonzalo > > > > New York, NY 10027 > > > > USA Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com > > > > -- > > Gonzalo Camarillo Phone : +1 212 939 71 71 > > Columbia University Mobile: +358 40 702 35 35 > > 472 Computer Science Building Fax : +358 9 299 30 52 > > 1214 Amsterdam Ave., Mail Code 0401 http://www.hut.fi/~gonzalo > > New York, NY 10027 > > USA Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > > To subscribe to it, send mail to > > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. -- Gonzalo Camarillo Phone : +1 212 939 71 71 Columbia University Mobile: +358 40 702 35 35 472 Computer Science Building Fax : +358 9 299 30 52 1214 Amsterdam Ave., Mail Code 0401 http://www.hut.fi/~gonzalo New York, NY 10027 USA Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Sun May 20 22:37:21 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id WAA17020 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 22:37:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA8414434B; Sun, 20 May 2001 22:37:21 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from dcn.ssu.ac.kr (dcn.ssu.ac.kr [203.253.2.104]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B0E244338 for ; Sun, 20 May 2001 22:35:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from peniel5 ([203.253.28.185]) by dcn.ssu.ac.kr (8.10.1/8.10.1) with SMTP id f4L2R1I19864 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 11:27:01 +0900 (KST) From: "jinho Hwang" To: Subject: [SIP] Question of Session timer document Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0033_01C0E1EA.397EC4E0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <015e01c0dfc7$160fe400$c411290c@masconit.com> X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 11:36:06 +0900 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C0E1EA.397EC4E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MS5JbiB0aGlzIGZpZ3VyZQ0KDQogDQppZiAxMXRoIEJZRSBpcyBzZW50IGJ5IFVBQyBhbmQgU1BT IGRvZXMgbm90IHJlY2VpdmUgdGhlIEJZRSBtZXNzYWdlLA0KICBIb3cgaXMgdGhlIGZlZSBjb21w dXRhdGlvbiBvZiBDYWxsaW5nIFVBID8gYW5kIGEgcG9pbnQgaW4gdGltZSBvZiB0aGUNCmZlZSBj 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//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////8AAAD///////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////8A//////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////AAAA//////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA//////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////AAAA//////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////AP////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////////////////////wAAAP////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////wAAAAAAAAAAAP////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////////////////wAAAP////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////wAAAP////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////wD///////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////8AAAD///////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////8AAAD///////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////8AAAD///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////8A//////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////AAAA//////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// AAAA//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////AP////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////wAAAP////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////////////////////wAAAAAAAP////////////// /wAAAAAAAP///////wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP///////wAAAAAAAP///////////////wAAAAAA AP////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////wAAAP// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////wD///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////8AAAD///////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////8AAAAAAAD///////////////8AAAAA AAD///8AAAAAAAD///////////8AAAAAAAD///8AAAAAAAD///////////8AAAAAAAD///////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////8AAAD///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////8AAAAAAAD///////8AAAAAAAD///8AAAAAAAD///////// //////////////////8AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD///////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////8AAAD///////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////8A//////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// AAAA//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////AAAAAAAA////////AAAAAAAA////AAAAAAAA//////////////// ////////////AAAAAAAAAAAA//////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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//////////////8AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD///////8AAAAAAAD///////////////////////////8A AAAAAAD///8AAAAAAAD///////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////8AAAD///////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////8AAAAAAAD///////8AAAAAAAD///////8AAAAAAAD///8AAAAAAAD///////8AAAAA AAD///////////////////8AAAAAAAD///////////////8AAAAAAAD///////8AAAAAAAAAAAD/ //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////wAAAAAA AP///////wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP///////wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP///////////////wAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAP///////////////wAAAAAAAP///////wAAAAAAAP////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////wAAAP////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////////////wD///////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////8AAAD///////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////8AAAAAAAD///// //8AAAAAAAAAAAD///////////8AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD///////////////8AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD/ //////////////8AAAAAAAD///////8AAAAAAAD///////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////8AAAD///////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////8A//////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////AAAA//////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////AAAAAAAAAAAA//////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////AAAAAAAA////////AAAA AAAAAAAA////////////AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA////////////////AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA////AAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA//////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////AAAA//////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////AP////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////////////////wAAAP////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////////////wAAAP////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////wAAAP////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////wD///////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////8AAAD///////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////8AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD///////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //8AAAD///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////8A//////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA//////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////AAAA //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////AP////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////wAAAP////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////wAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////wAAAP////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////wD///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////8AAAD///////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////8AAAAAAAAA AAAAAAD///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////8AAAD///////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////8AAAD///////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////8A //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////AAAA//////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////AAAA//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////////////AAAA//////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////AP////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////wAAAP////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////////////wAAAP////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////wD///////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //8AAAD///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////8AAAAAAAD///////8AAAAAAAD///////////8AAAAAAAAAAAD///// //////8AAAAAAAD///////////8AAAAAAAD///////////////8AAAAAAAD///////8AAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD///////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////8AAAD///////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////8A//////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////AAAA //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////AAAAAAAA////////AAAAAAAA////////////AAAAAAAAAAAA//////////// AAAAAAAA////////////AAAAAAAA////////////////AAAAAAAA////////AAAAAAAA//////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////////AP////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////wAAAP////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////wAAAAAAAP///////wAAAAAAAP///////wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP///////wAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAP///////wAAAAAAAP///////////////wAAAAAAAP///////wAAAAAAAP////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////wAAAP////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////wAAAP////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////////wD///////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////8AAAD///////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //8AAAAAAAD///////8AAAAAAAD///////8AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD///////8AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD/ //////8AAAAAAAD///////////////8AAAAAAAD///////8AAAAAAAD///////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////8AAAD///////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////8AAAD///////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////8A//////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////////////AAAA//////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////AAAA AAAA////////AAAAAAAA////AAAAAAAA////AAAAAAAA////AAAAAAAA////////AAAAAAAA//// AAAAAAAA////////////////AAAAAAAA////////AAAAAAAA//////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////////////wAAAP////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////wAAAAAAAP// /////wAAAAAAAP///wAAAAAAAP///wAAAAAAAP///wAAAAAAAP///////wAAAAAAAP///wAAAAAA AP///////////////wAAAAAAAP///////wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////wAAAP////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////wD///////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////8AAAD///////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////8AAAAAAAD///////8A AAAAAAAAAAAAAAD///////8AAAAAAAD///8AAAAAAAD///////8AAAAAAAD///8AAAAAAAD///// //////////8AAAAAAAD///////8AAAAAAAD///////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////8A 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/////////////////////////////////////////////wAAAAAAAP///////wAAAAAAAAAAAP// /////////wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP///////////////wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP///////////////wAA AAAAAP///////wAAAAAAAP////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////wAAAP////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////wAAAP////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /wD///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////8AAAD///////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////8AAAAAAAD///////8AAAAAAAAAAAD///////// //8AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD///////////////8AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD///8AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD///////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////8AAAD///////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////8A//// 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//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////////AAAA//////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////AP////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////wAAAP////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////////wAAAP////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////wD///////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////8A AAD///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////8AAAD/ //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////8AAAD///////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////8A//////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////AAAA//// 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//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////wD///////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////wD/ //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////////////////////wD///////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////AP////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////wD///////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////8A//////////////////////////////////////////////// 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AAAAAAAAAP////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /wD///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////8A//// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////AP////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////////4AAgP////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////wD///////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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//////////////////////////////////////////////////8A//////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////gACAgACAgACA//////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////AP////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////4AAgIAAgIAAgIAAgP////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////wD///////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////+A AICAAICAAICAAICAAID///////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////8A//////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////gACAgACAgACA gACAgACAgACA//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////wD///////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////+AAID///////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////8A//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////////////gACA//////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////AP////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////////4AAgP////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////wD/ //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////////AAAA//////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////AP////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////wAAAP////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /wAAAP////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////////wAAAP////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////wD///////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////8A AAD///////////////8AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 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//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////8AAAD///////////////8A AAD///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////8AAAD///////// //////////////8AAAD///////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////8A//////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////////AAAA////////////////AAAA//// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////wAAAP////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////wD/ //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////8AAAD///////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////8AAAAAAAD///////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////AAAA//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////AP////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////wAAAP////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////wAAAAAAAP///////wAA AAAAAP///////wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP///////wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP///////wAAAAAAAP////// /////////wAAAAAAAP///////wAAAAAAAP////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// /////////////////////////////////wAAAP////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Mon May 21 08:46:53 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id IAA08022 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 08:46:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49E4A44340; Mon, 21 May 2001 08:47:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mail.go2call.com (mail.go2call.com [216.34.184.220]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 569E844338 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 08:46:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netadmin2 (go2call-99.go2call.com [216.52.157.99]) by mail.go2call.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with SMTP id f4LCkNr28245; Mon, 21 May 2001 07:46:23 -0500 (CDT) From: "Ajay K. Garg" To: "Sameer sheth" , Subject: RE: [SIP] General Query regarding SIP Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 In-Reply-To: Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 07:50:46 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Hi > > I am new to this group and also to this domain. I have very few > basic queries regarding SIP and I would like you to help me out. Please do > reply as soon as possible > > 1) What role does User Agent plays ? Is it necessary that only > through User > Agent we can contact the SIP Server ? if yes then how does the ordinary > Telephone, which everyone at their residences use can get connected ? > > 2) Can a ordinary Telephone, which everyone at their residences have can > contact SIP Server ? and from there interact with other SIP USERS ? > Yes it is possible to use the normal PSTN phone but you might have to implement some sort of proxy on your SIP GW which will do that for your phone. > 3) When I transmit Voice over SIP which use TCP/IP, what role > does SIP play at that time ? SIP is essentially a control protocol. Voice is transmitted using RTP protocol via UDP. > > I thank you in advance for your kind help and time. I would really > appreciate if you could reply back to me as soon as possible. > > Thanking you > HTH -Ajay _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Mon May 21 09:10:55 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA08732 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 09:10:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 836DC44362; Mon, 21 May 2001 09:11:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from ismailout1.icomverse.com (unknown [192.118.48.253]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9DC044361 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 09:10:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ismailmkt.icomverse.com (ismailmkt.icomverse.com [190.190.55.28]) by ismailout1.icomverse.com (8.11.0/8.11.0.Beta3) with ESMTP id f4LD7lW03227; Mon, 21 May 2001 16:07:47 +0300 Received: by ismailmkt.icomverse.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 21 May 2001 16:09:09 +0300 Message-ID: <767720C6032ED511AE8C00508BE3518E328481@ISMAILWEB> From: "Ramati, Nadav" To: "'Gonzalo Camarillo'" Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-isup-01.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 16:10:13 +0300 Hi, We read your SIP-ISUP draft with great interest, and had a question concerning support of additional parameters outside the scope of international ISUP. In particular, would you have plans to incorporate support of the Diversion header (Redirecting number) into your draft? Although this topic is still controversial, standardized support of this information would prove extremely valuable in applications such as voice mail. Thank you in advance for your response. Nadav Ramati COMVERSE _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Mon May 21 10:08:54 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA09841 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 10:08:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 297F244362; Mon, 21 May 2001 10:09:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from albatross-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se (albatross-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [194.237.142.116]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 851F344338 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 10:08:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailserver1.ericsson.se (mailserver1.ericsson.se [136.225.152.91]) by albatross.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.11.0/8.11.0/WIREfire-1.3) with ESMTP id f4LE7xN17313; Mon, 21 May 2001 16:08:00 +0200 (MEST) Received: from lmf.ericsson.se (racom-sd-27.sd.us.am.ericsson.se [142.133.141.28]) by mailserver1.ericsson.se (8.9.3/8.9.3/eri-1.0) with ESMTP id QAA11091; Mon, 21 May 2001 16:08:14 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <3B092251.84E8ED78@lmf.ericsson.se> From: Gonzalo Camarillo Organization: Oy L M Ericsson Ab X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Ramati, Nadav" Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: Re: [SIP] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-isup-01.txt References: <767720C6032ED511AE8C00508BE3518E328481@ISMAILWEB> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 17:12:33 +0300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, It is mentioned in the draft that a REL that contains a new number where the callee might be reached should generate a 3xx response. The new number will go into the Contact header. I believe that there is no need of extra support in order to provide this feature. Besides, there are a lot of switches in the PSTN that do not support this. Therefore, I am not sure how many gateways are going to implement this feature. Regards, Gonzalo "Ramati, Nadav" wrote: > > Hi, > > We read your SIP-ISUP draft with great interest, and had a question > concerning support of additional parameters outside the scope of > international ISUP. In particular, would you have plans to incorporate > support of the Diversion header (Redirecting number) into your draft? > Although this topic is still controversial, standardized support of this > information would prove extremely valuable in applications such as voice > mail. > > Thank you in advance for your response. > > Nadav Ramati > COMVERSE -- Gonzalo Camarillo Phone : +1 212 939 71 71 Columbia University Mobile: +358 40 702 35 35 472 Computer Science Building Fax : +358 9 299 30 52 1214 Amsterdam Ave., Mail Code 0401 http://www.hut.fi/~gonzalo New York, NY 10027 USA Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Mon May 21 10:32:55 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA10403 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 10:32:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FC7B44362; Mon, 21 May 2001 10:33:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from bgl1ml1-a.sancharnet.in (bgl1ml2-a-fixed.sancharnet.in [61.1.128.36]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F753443BC for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 03:35:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from voyager.sankartech ([61.1.216.161]) by bgl1ml1-a.sancharnet.in (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA55CC63 for ; Thu, 17 May 2001 13:08:14 -0500 Received: by VOYAGER with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 17 May 2001 13:07:49 +0530 Message-ID: From: Sameer sheth To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [SIP] Reply Requested Immediately Please Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 13:07:41 +0530 Respected Sir I have a few very basic queries regarding the SIP protocol, like 1) Who controls the voice when it is transmitted over the network.? 2) What is the main purpose of User Agent in SIP ? 3) Through SIP we can switch between various devices like PDA, Mobile, etc.. can we make a voice call to an ordinary PSTN phone ? if yes how does the entire process work ? 4) What are the various voice channel in SIP? 5) Can we transmit data and voice at the same time ? (i.e.) I wish to transmit the voice as well images to an mobile device which is connected to the SIP Server ? 6) Where should the SIP User Agent reside ? 7) Please explain in detail regarding USER AGENT. 8) How much does a SIP Server , User Agent and Proxy Server cost ? I would appreciate if you could send me any basic information regarding SIP, I am sure by going through the above questions you would have understood that I am trying to get hold of SIP core working. I have downloaded SIP RFCs, and have gone through faq which is located at http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~hgs/sip/faq/cache/1.html. If there is any other URLs located on the web that you feel will help me better understand the technical detail and the working of SIP then please do let me know. I hope to hear from you soon. Please reply as soon as possible. Thank you Regards > ----------------------------------- > Sameer.Sheth > Analysts > Justvox ---> We(b) Speak, Your Way > T/F: +91-422-446127 / 456753 > > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Mon May 21 10:34:38 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA10438 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 10:34:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A753544374; Mon, 21 May 2001 10:33:17 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 343DA44338 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 06:59:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA04957; Mon, 21 May 2001 06:59:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105211059.GAA04957@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: confctr@isi.edu, sip@lists.bell-labs.com From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: [SIP] I-D ACTION:draft-huitema-sdp4nat-00.txt Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 06:59:30 -0400 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : RTCP attribute in SDP Author(s) : C. Huitema Filename : draft-huitema-sdp4nat-00.txt Pages : 6 Date : 18-May-01 The session description protocol (SDP) is used to describe the parameters of media streams used in multimedia sessions. When a session requires multiple ports, SDP assumes that these port have consecutive numbers. However, when the session crosses a network address translation device that also uses port mapping, the ordering of ports can be destroyed by the translation. To handle this, we propose an extension attribute to SDP. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-huitema-sdp4nat-00.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-huitema-sdp4nat-00.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-huitema-sdp4nat-00.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20010518113634.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-huitema-sdp4nat-00.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-huitema-sdp4nat-00.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20010518113634.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Mon May 21 11:40:54 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA11436 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 11:40:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39E1144340; Mon, 21 May 2001 11:41:07 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mail.inetmail.att.net (mailhost1.inetmail.att.net [204.127.132.33]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B7B244338 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 11:40:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashok ([12.41.17.196]) by mail.inetmail.att.net (mtiagic01) with SMTP id <20010521154047gi128292ioe>; Mon, 21 May 2001 15:40:47 +0000 Message-ID: <003201c0e20d$05b6eb60$c411290c@masconit.com> Reply-To: "Ranjit Avasarala" From: "Ranjit Avasarala" To: "Jose Martinez" Cc: References: <20010520193719.2020.qmail@web4804.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [SIP] timeout value for response MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 10:33:57 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi I am not sure of the internal implementation of dynamicsoft SIP stack. But ya setting timeout to -1 will make the proxy wait for infinite time. u can also alternatively set the timeout to a specific value and wait for that time period. Regards Ranjit Mascon Communication Technologies http://www.masconit.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Jose Martinez To: Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 2:37 PM Subject: Re: [SIP] timeout value for response Ranjit, I dont want our SIP Proxy to timeout neither. But we our using a dynamicsoft proxy. Will setting the timeout to -1 or 0 set the timout to infinity on the dynaimcsoft SIP stack. Thnx a lot. Jose --- Ranjit Avasarala wrote: > Hi > if u don't want the sip stack to timeout and > want it to wait for > infinite time for the ACK then give the value -1. > and 0 for > asynchronous receive. > > Regards > Ranjit > Mascon Communication Technologies > http://www.masconit.com > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: kumar s > To: > Sent: Friday, May 18, 2001 10:21 AM > Subject: [SIP] timeout value for response > > > Hello All, > > what is the recommended 'timeout value' for a > sipstack to wait for a > response. > > In particular, what is the recommended time the > sipstack would wait for an > ACK for a 200 OK. > > Thanks > > S.Kumarconfirm 748539 > > _____________________________________________________ > Chat with your friends as soon as they come online. > Get Rediff Bol at > http://bol.rediff.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP > protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss > implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with > "subscribe" in the body. > > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP > protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss > implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with > "subscribe" in the body. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Mon May 21 11:58:52 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA11791 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 11:58:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4DF24438A; Mon, 21 May 2001 11:59:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6765744386 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 11:58:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id MAA08375 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 12:02:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 21 May 2001 11:58:37 -0400 Message-ID: <9BF66EBF6BEFD942915B4D4D45C051F31803C8@DYN-TX-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com> From: Steve Donovan To: "'jinho Hwang'" , sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] Question of Session timer document MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 11:58:34 -0400 > -----Original Message----- > From: jinho Hwang [mailto:peniel5@dcn.ssu.ac.kr] > Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 9:36 PM > To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com > Subject: [SIP] Question of Session timer document > > 1.In this figure > > << OLE Object: PBrush >> > if 11th BYE is sent by UAC and SPS does not receive the BYE message, > How is the fee computation of Calling UA ? and a point in time of the fee computation ? What fee? What is being charged for? If it is some sort of a per minute charge for the SIP session, then this diagram is a perfect illustration of why it is not a good idea to base billing on SIP messaging. > > 2. In this figure > << OLE Object: Visio 2000 Drawing >> > > > in Called UA which is received INVITE message, > How decides UAS whether this INVITE is first INVITE or is second, 3th... INVITE? Using the call identification parameters (To, From, Callid). > As 400 rejected Media message is sent by UAS, UAS must know the state of INVITE message's counts..... > > > What do you think about 2 problem?... > > > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Mon May 21 14:03:55 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id OAA15382 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 14:03:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAC4A44340; Mon, 21 May 2001 14:04:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mail.inetmail.att.net (mailhost1.inetmail.att.net [204.127.132.33]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06C0544338 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 14:03:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashok ([12.41.17.196]) by mail.inetmail.att.net (mtiagic01) with SMTP id <20010521180311gi1282794ce>; Mon, 21 May 2001 18:03:12 +0000 Message-ID: <00ce01c0e220$eb827480$c411290c@masconit.com> Reply-To: "Ranjit Avasarala" From: "Ranjit Avasarala" To: "Sameer sheth" , References: Subject: Re: [SIP] Reply Requested Immediately Please MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 13:07:37 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit sameer see my comments inline... Regards Ranjit Mascon Communication Technologies http://www.masconit.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Sameer sheth To: Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 2:37 AM Subject: [SIP] Reply Requested Immediately Please Respected Sir I have a few very basic queries regarding the SIP protocol, like 1) Who controls the voice when it is transmitted over the network.? like u transmit voice thru audio channel ...i.e basically thru real time protocol (RTP). 2) What is the main purpose of User Agent in SIP ? user agent is the client / server entity that transmit / receive audio / video data. 3) Through SIP we can switch between various devices like PDA, Mobile, etc.. can we make a voice call to an ordinary PSTN phone ? if yes how does the entire process work ? yes you can make a voice call to a PSTN phone using SIP - PSTN gateway. to switch between PDA, Mobile , first of all u need have user agent softeware running in them. 4) What are the various voice channel in SIP? there are no various vocie channel, but different codecs. like G.723, G.711, etc. 5) Can we transmit data and voice at the same time ? (i.e.) I wish to transmit the voice as well images to an mobile device which is connected to the SIP Server ? yes. u can. like u need to open different sessions for that. like for audio we have session id 1, for video session id 2 and for data session id 3. 6) Where should the SIP User Agent reside ? in the device say a IP phone. or mobile or PC to which a telephone is connected. 7) Please explain in detail regarding USER AGENT. may be u could go to sip rfc for this ( RFC 2543) 8) How much does a SIP Server , User Agent and Proxy Server cost ? check with rescpective vendors I would appreciate if you could send me any basic information regarding SIP, I am sure by going through the above questions you would have understood that I am trying to get hold of SIP core working. I have downloaded SIP RFCs, and have gone through faq which is located at http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~hgs/sip/faq/cache/1.html. If there is any other URLs located on the web that you feel will help me better understand the technical detail and the working of SIP then please do let me know. I hope to hear from you soon. Please reply as soon as possible. go to http://www.sipcentre.com. or give a search in google. Thank you Regards > ----------------------------------- > Sameer.Sheth > Analysts > Justvox ---> We(b) Speak, Your Way > T/F: +91-422-446127 / 456753 > > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Mon May 21 14:29:54 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id OAA15806 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 14:29:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8221E4437D; Mon, 21 May 2001 14:30:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mail-green.research.att.com (H-135-207-30-103.research.att.com [135.207.30.103]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CA3244340 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 14:29:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from alliance.research.att.com (alliance.research.att.com [135.207.26.26]) by mail-green.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77F531E7DD for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 14:29:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fish.research.att.com (fish.research.att.com [135.207.27.137]) by alliance.research.att.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA21617 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 14:29:18 -0400 (EDT) From: William Marshall Received: (from wtm@localhost) by fish.research.att.com (SGI-8.9.3/8.8.5) id OAA08392 for sip@lists.bell-labs.com; Mon, 21 May 2001 14:29:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105211829.OAA08392@fish.research.att.com> To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: [SIP] Comments on draft-ietf-sip-cc-transfer-04 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 14:29:18 -0400 (EDT) I have completed a review of draft-ietf-sip-cc-transfer-04, and have a few problems/issues that I'd like to raise with it. 1. The Referred-By header defined in draft-ietf-sip-cc-transfer-04 looks like a subset of the Remote-Party-ID header defined in draft-ietf-sip-privacy-02. I see no reason why two separate headers need to be defined for the same purpose; I recommend cc-transfer utilize the Remote-Party-ID header instead of defining its own. 2. There are some substantial technical issues with section 4.5, Unattended Transfer with Consultation Hold. First, there needs to be normative behavior specified for a UAS that receives a REFER-generated INVITE, so it doesn't respond with a 486-Busy if the intention was a consultation transfer (assuming the transfer target is still off-hook from the consultation). The UAS also needs to respond to all INVITEs other than the REFER- generated INVITE with a 486-Busy until the REFER-generated INVITE arrives. How does the transfer target know to do this? Something in the BYE? Is the length of the interval purely implementation-specific? I think the draft should give some normative behavior for the first, and guidance for the proper interval. As this involves non-2543 handling in the transfer-target, I believe a Require: header is needed on the consultation call; this draft should define the tag value. 3. Section 4.5.3 mentions some of the complications with proxies and consultation calls, but not all of them; I believe there are still open issues. One basic assumption made in this situation is that the Contact header value from the consultation call is usable by the Transferee to reach the same endpoint. Such a globally-reachable Contact is not required anywhere else - it is only necessary that the Contact value be understandable to the last proxy that inserted itself into the Record-Route header. As a consequence, I believe the Refer-To header may need a Route header attached to it for proper handling of the REFER-generated INVITE. However, the Route headers for the existing call legs are only partially applicable to the new Transferee-initiated session. How should the Route header be calculated for a REFER? There are certainly situations where the backup proposal, Accept-Contact, will not reach the desired transfer-target, and a Route header is the only workable solution. One such case is time-of-day routing, where the transfer-target is removed as a valid translation of the destination between the time of the consultation and the time of the transfer. Remainder are mainly editorial, and easily fixed. 4. Section 4.5.3 makes reference to the Accept-Contact header, which is (I believe) only defined in 2543bis-03. Normative definition of this should appear in the cc-transfer draft, avoiding the dependency on 2543bis. 5. There are a number of editorial nits that need to be fixed in the draft before submission to IESG. a. The reference to draft-ietf-sip-cc-01 should be removed, since that draft is no longer available. Since it is an informative references, rather than a normative one, the relevant information can be included in the main body of the draft without adding it to the list of references. b. section 2 should be removed c. two paragraphs starting "Open Issue" should be deleted from 3.6.2.1 d. section 5 issues have been resolved technically, so should be resolved in the text and removed Bill Marshall wtm@research.att.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Mon May 21 16:59:55 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA18551 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 16:59:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59D2544340; Mon, 21 May 2001 17:00:07 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2276644338 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 16:59:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id RAA13557; Mon, 21 May 2001 17:03:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 21 May 2001 16:59:49 -0400 Message-ID: <9BF66EBF6BEFD942915B4D4D45C051F314A825@DYN-TX-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com> From: Robert Sparks To: "'William Marshall'" , Rakesh Shah , sip@lists.bell-labs.com Cc: Dean Willis , "'Rosen, Brian'" , "'jo@tzi.uni-bremen.de'" Subject: RE: [SIP] Comments on draft-ietf-sip-cc-transfer-04 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 16:59:47 -0400 Bill - Thanks for digging though this. I'm assuming (based on the last section of your feedback) that you did this as a nit-review assignment? I am in the midst of splitting the draft, incorporating Replaces and reworking the callerprefs usage in the application half of the split. I'll work through these comments while I'm in there. Rakesh - Has anyone else been assigned to review this draft? As I mentioned when Rohan completed the nits review - this document is not ready for a last call nit pass - it is being split into two documents, and each of those will need nit pressure when they are done. This work will certainly benefit from what Bill and Rohan have put into it, but if there is something actually ready to go into last call, spend the resources there. RjS > -----Original Message----- > From: William Marshall [mailto:wtm@research.att.com] > Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 1:29 PM > To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com > Subject: [SIP] Comments on draft-ietf-sip-cc-transfer-04 > > > I have completed a review of draft-ietf-sip-cc-transfer-04, and have > a few problems/issues that I'd like to raise with it. > > > 1. The Referred-By header defined in draft-ietf-sip-cc-transfer-04 > looks like a subset of the Remote-Party-ID header defined in > draft-ietf-sip-privacy-02. I see no reason why two separate > headers need to be defined for the same purpose; I recommend > cc-transfer utilize the Remote-Party-ID header instead of defining > its own. > > 2. There are some substantial technical issues with section 4.5, > Unattended Transfer with Consultation Hold. > > First, there needs to be normative behavior specified for a UAS that > receives a REFER-generated INVITE, so it doesn't respond with a > 486-Busy if the intention was a consultation transfer > (assuming the transfer target is still off-hook from the > consultation). > > The UAS also needs to respond to all INVITEs other than the REFER- > generated INVITE with a 486-Busy until the REFER-generated > INVITE arrives. > How does the transfer target know to do this? Something in the BYE? > Is the length of the interval purely implementation-specific? I think > the draft should give some normative behavior for the first, > and guidance > for the proper interval. > > As this involves non-2543 handling in the transfer-target, I believe > a Require: header is needed on the consultation call; this draft > should define the tag value. > > 3. Section 4.5.3 mentions some of the complications with proxies and > consultation calls, but not all of them; I believe there are still > open issues. > > One basic assumption made in this situation is that the Contact > header value from the consultation call is usable by the Transferee > to reach the same endpoint. Such a globally-reachable Contact > is not required anywhere else - it is only necessary that the Contact > value be understandable to the last proxy that inserted itself into > the Record-Route header. > > As a consequence, I believe the Refer-To header may need a Route > header attached to it for proper handling of the REFER-generated > INVITE. However, the Route headers for the existing call legs > are only partially applicable to the new Transferee-initiated > session. How should the Route header be calculated for a REFER? > > There are certainly situations where the backup proposal, > Accept-Contact, > will not reach the desired transfer-target, and a Route header is the > only workable solution. One such case is time-of-day routing, where > the transfer-target is removed as a valid translation of the > destination > between the time of the consultation and the time of the transfer. > > > Remainder are mainly editorial, and easily fixed. > > 4. Section 4.5.3 makes reference to the Accept-Contact header, > which is (I believe) only defined in 2543bis-03. Normative > definition > of this should appear in the cc-transfer draft, avoiding the > dependency > on 2543bis. > > 5. There are a number of editorial nits that need to be fixed in > the draft before submission to IESG. > a. The reference to draft-ietf-sip-cc-01 should be removed, since > that draft is no longer available. Since it is an informative > references, rather than a normative one, the relevant > information > can be included in the main body of the draft without adding it > to the list of references. > b. section 2 should be removed > c. two paragraphs starting "Open Issue" should be deleted > from 3.6.2.1 > d. section 5 issues have been resolved technically, so > should be resolved > in the text and removed > > Bill Marshall > wtm@research.att.com > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Mon May 21 22:34:54 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id WAA23927 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 22:34:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F7D444393; Mon, 21 May 2001 22:35:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se (penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [194.237.142.110]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94DC344340 for ; Mon, 21 May 2001 22:34:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailserver1.ericsson.se (mailserver1.ericsson.se [136.225.152.91]) by penguin.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.11.0/8.10.1/WIREfire-1.3) with ESMTP id f4M2YeO27410; Tue, 22 May 2001 04:34:40 +0200 (MEST) Received: from lmf.ericsson.se (racom-sd-81.sd.us.am.ericsson.se [142.133.141.82]) by mailserver1.ericsson.se (8.9.3/8.9.3/eri-1.0) with ESMTP id EAA04851; Tue, 22 May 2001 04:34:55 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <3B09D15B.A432FA65@lmf.ericsson.se> From: Gonzalo Camarillo Organization: Oy L M Ericsson Ab X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sip Cc: adam.roach@ericsson.com, Jon Peterson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [SIP] 183 vs. INFO Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 05:39:23 +0300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, We have received several comments on the isup-sip mapping draft. I believe that it is worthwhile mentioning one of them so that the WG can think about it (it is a small issue, though). Right now, signalling other than IAM, ACM, ANM, CON, REL... is transferred between gateways using INFO. However, since INFO does not ensure in order delivery, while the session is being established (before the 200 OK for the INVITE), the draft recommends that 183s are used instead of INFO. Actually, the out of order delivery does not represent a problem in 99.9% of the cases. (I cannot think of a situation whn we will have a problem because of this). Therefore, folks have suggested to recommend that INFO is used regardless of the state of the establishment of the call. It has some advantages over 183: 1) It is a more coherent solution, since (for instance), the INR will be sent always in an INFO, and not in a 183 or an INFO depending of the situation. This can simplify implementations. 2) It makes a clar distintion between what is session progress (ACM, CPGs) and what is a trasfer of PSTN signalling (INR...). 3) It saves one message (INFO-ACK vs. 183-PRACK-200 OK). Therefore, I think that we should use INFO all the time. This can be done by only changing one paragraph in the draft (section guidelines for mapping other ISUP flavors). If nobody thinks that this is a bad idea we will go ahead and change it. Best regards, Gonzalo -- Gonzalo Camarillo Phone : +1 212 939 71 71 Columbia University Mobile: +358 40 702 35 35 472 Computer Science Building Fax : +358 9 299 30 52 1214 Amsterdam Ave., Mail Code 0401 http://www.hut.fi/~gonzalo New York, NY 10027 USA Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 22 03:04:53 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id DAA10736 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 03:04:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0835844340; Tue, 22 May 2001 03:05:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from imr2.ericy.com (imr2.ericy.com [12.34.240.68]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6067244338 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 03:04:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mr6.exu.ericsson.se (mr6att.ericy.com [138.85.92.14]) by imr2.ericy.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4M74S813098; Tue, 22 May 2001 02:04:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from newman.exu.ericsson.se (newman.exu.ericsson.se [138.85.75.179]) by mr6.exu.ericsson.se (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4M74SV10912; Tue, 22 May 2001 02:04:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pc050163 (pc4218.es.eu.ericsson.se [159.107.4.218]) by newman.exu.ericsson.se (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA03370; Tue, 22 May 2001 02:04:23 -0500 (CDT) Reply-To: From: "Adam Roach" To: "'Gonzalo Camarillo'" , "sip" Cc: , "Jon Peterson" Message-ID: <000101c0e28d$bc1a9a20$da046b9f@pc050163.exu.ericsson.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3B09D15B.A432FA65@lmf.ericsson.se> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Subject: [SIP] RE: 183 vs. INFO Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 02:06:33 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Actually, the out of order delivery does not represent a problem in > 99.9% of the cases. (I cannot think of a situation whn we will have a > problem because of this). Therefore, folks have suggested to recommend > that INFO is used regardless of the state of the establishment of the > call. Actually, INFO is perfectly ordered once you take into consideration the requirement that you can have at most one INFO outstanding at a time. This is a no-brainer. Use INFO. /a _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 22 03:26:53 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id DAA11405 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 03:26:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E009444393; Tue, 22 May 2001 03:27:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se (penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [194.237.142.110]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1CEF44340 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 03:26:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fogerty.lmf.ericsson.se (fogerty.lmf.ericsson.se [131.160.11.6]) by penguin.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.11.0/8.10.1/WIREfire-1.3) with ESMTP id f4M7QKO00954; Tue, 22 May 2001 09:26:20 +0200 (MEST) Received: from lmf.ericsson.se (E005004B52C74.lmf.ericsson.se [131.160.30.161]) by fogerty.lmf.ericsson.se (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4M7QJJ02946; Tue, 22 May 2001 10:26:19 +0300 (EET DST) Message-ID: <3B0A1496.2EF55613@lmf.ericsson.se> From: Christer Holmberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: adam.roach@ericsson.com Cc: "'Gonzalo Camarillo'" , sip , Jon Peterson Subject: Re: [SIP] RE: 183 vs. INFO References: <000101c0e28d$bc1a9a20$da046b9f@pc050163.exu.ericsson.se> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------466B26C4A18992CFA2E27813" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 10:26:14 +0300 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------466B26C4A18992CFA2E27813 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I agree too. Use INFO. A question, however: How will proxies handle INFOs that are sent, no matter the direction, before the call is established? If there is a problem, should we define a Proxy-Require tag ("sipt", or something) to make sure that all proxies in the path will support this? Regards, Christer Holmberg Ericsson Finland Adam Roach wrote: > > > Actually, the out of order delivery does not represent a problem in > > 99.9% of the cases. (I cannot think of a situation whn we will have a > > problem because of this). Therefore, folks have suggested to recommend > > that INFO is used regardless of the state of the establishment of the > > call. > > Actually, INFO is perfectly ordered once you take into consideration > the requirement that you can have at most one INFO outstanding > at a time. This is a no-brainer. Use INFO. > > /a > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. --------------466B26C4A18992CFA2E27813 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="christer.holmberg.vcf" Content-Description: Card for Christer Holmberg Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="christer.holmberg.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit begin:vcard n:Holmberg;Christer tel;cell:+358-40-5604412 tel;work:+358-9-2992943 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Ericsson;IP Multimedia / Advanced Signalling Research Laboratory adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 email;internet:christer.holmberg@lmf.ericsson.se title:System Designer fn:Christer Holmberg end:vcard --------------466B26C4A18992CFA2E27813-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 22 04:09:52 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id EAA11656 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 04:09:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3864244399; Tue, 22 May 2001 04:10:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from dns1.catt.ac.cn (unknown [202.106.106.98]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1949D44338 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 04:09:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from suncz (202.106.106.126 [202.106.106.126]) by dns1.catt.ac.cn with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id KP6AXJ7C; Tue, 22 May 2001 16:03:30 +0800 Message-ID: <006c01c0e296$43b3c300$7dce12ac@MCSD.local> From: "suncz" To: "Gonzalo Camarillo" , "sip" Cc: , "Jon Peterson" References: <3B09D15B.A432FA65@lmf.ericsson.se> Subject: Re: [SIP] 183 vs. INFO MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 16:07:32 +0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from base64 to 8bit by ietf.org id EAA11656 Hello, I want to know the detailed informations of 183 and INFO. Could you tell me where I can find them? Thank you in advance . Best regards, Yours sincerely, Chengzhen Sun ------------------------------------------------- Standardization Department Mobile Communication R&D Center China Academy of Telecommunication Technology(CATT) No.40,Xueyuan Road Beijing,China 100083 Tel:+8610 62304422EXT227 Fax:+8610 62303127 Mailto:suncz@catt.ac.cn -------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gonzalo Camarillo" To: "sip" Cc: ; "Jon Peterson" Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 10:39 AM Subject: [SIP] 183 vs. INFO > Hello, > > We have received several comments on the isup-sip mapping draft. I > believe that it is worthwhile mentioning one of them so that the WG can > think about it (it is a small issue, though). > > Right now, signalling other than IAM, ACM, ANM, CON, REL... is > transferred between gateways using INFO. However, since INFO does not > ensure in order delivery, while the session is being established (before > the 200 OK for the INVITE), the draft recommends that 183s are used > instead of INFO. > > Actually, the out of order delivery does not represent a problem in > 99.9% of the cases. (I cannot think of a situation whn we will have a > problem because of this). Therefore, folks have suggested to recommend > that INFO is used regardless of the state of the establishment of the > call. > > It has some advantages over 183: > 1) It is a more coherent solution, since (for instance), the INR will be > sent always in an INFO, and not in a 183 or an INFO depending of the > situation. This can simplify implementations. > > 2) It makes a clar distintion between what is session progress (ACM, > CPGs) and what is a trasfer of PSTN signalling (INR...). > > 3) It saves one message (INFO-ACK vs. 183-PRACK-200 OK). > > Therefore, I think that we should use INFO all the time. This can be > done by only changing one paragraph in the draft (section guidelines for > mapping other ISUP flavors). > > If nobody thinks that this is a bad idea we will go ahead and change it. > > Best regards, > > Gonzalo > -- > Gonzalo Camarillo Phone : +1 212 939 71 71 > Columbia University Mobile: +358 40 702 35 35 > 472 Computer Science Building Fax : +358 9 299 30 52 > 1214 Amsterdam Ave., Mail Code 0401 http://www.hut.fi/~gonzalo > New York, NY 10027 > USA Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > ˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙Ó†+%ŠËb±ú+r‰íŠ{˘ž^˝éh¦g§¶‡í…ä>šč¶‡(—ôázČ©ţ)©•éžžÚ+ţÉb˛Ř¬¶©•§¶‡b±Ë¬˛)©•éžžÖ­Š‰˙jwm˘·śz+ŢiŰâqę'şw^®ËZťŘ§ěb˛Ř§‚Č©ý:,ą»®&޶­ţǧvf˘–Ú,Šźâš™^™éí˘»˙­ę®zË˙rĎܢ[¦n&˙yŰ°ŠŘ˙˛ćěr¸›{ř§¶›ˇÜ˙ From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 22 04:36:51 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id EAA11870 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 04:36:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D556344399; Tue, 22 May 2001 04:37:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se (penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [194.237.142.110]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC47744393 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 04:36:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fogerty.lmf.ericsson.se (fogerty.lmf.ericsson.se [131.160.11.6]) by penguin.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.11.0/8.10.1/WIREfire-1.3) with ESMTP id f4M8aaO11267; Tue, 22 May 2001 10:36:36 +0200 (MEST) Received: from lmf.ericsson.se (E005004B52C74.lmf.ericsson.se [131.160.30.161]) by fogerty.lmf.ericsson.se (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4M8aWJ06813; Tue, 22 May 2001 11:36:32 +0300 (EET DST) Message-ID: <3B0A250B.C123A88D@lmf.ericsson.se> From: Christer Holmberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: suncz Cc: sip Subject: Re: [SIP] 183 vs. INFO References: <3B09D15B.A432FA65@lmf.ericsson.se> <006c01c0e296$43b3c300$7dce12ac@MCSD.local> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------C59BA7F075E15358F88BB793" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 11:36:27 +0300 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------C59BA7F075E15358F88BB793 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit You will find the documentation you need from the IETF SIP WG page. http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/sip-charter.html Regards, Christer Holmberg Ericsson Finland suncz wrote: > > Hello, > > I want to know the detailed informations of 183 and INFO. > > Could you tell me where I can find them? > > Thank you in advance . > > Best regards, > > Yours sincerely, > Chengzhen Sun > ------------------------------------------------- > > Standardization Department > Mobile Communication R&D Center > China Academy of Telecommunication Technology(CATT) > No.40,Xueyuan Road > Beijing,China > 100083 > Tel:+8610 62304422EXT227 > Fax:+8610 62303127 > Mailto:suncz@catt.ac.cn > -------------------------------------------------- > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gonzalo Camarillo" > To: "sip" > Cc: ; "Jon Peterson" > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 10:39 AM > Subject: [SIP] 183 vs. INFO > > > Hello, > > > > We have received several comments on the isup-sip mapping draft. I > > believe that it is worthwhile mentioning one of them so that the WG can > > think about it (it is a small issue, though). > > > > Right now, signalling other than IAM, ACM, ANM, CON, REL... is > > transferred between gateways using INFO. However, since INFO does not > > ensure in order delivery, while the session is being established (before > > the 200 OK for the INVITE), the draft recommends that 183s are used > > instead of INFO. > > > > Actually, the out of order delivery does not represent a problem in > > 99.9% of the cases. (I cannot think of a situation whn we will have a > > problem because of this). Therefore, folks have suggested to recommend > > that INFO is used regardless of the state of the establishment of the > > call. > > > > It has some advantages over 183: > > 1) It is a more coherent solution, since (for instance), the INR will be > > sent always in an INFO, and not in a 183 or an INFO depending of the > > situation. This can simplify implementations. > > > > 2) It makes a clar distintion between what is session progress (ACM, > > CPGs) and what is a trasfer of PSTN signalling (INR...). > > > > 3) It saves one message (INFO-ACK vs. 183-PRACK-200 OK). > > > > Therefore, I think that we should use INFO all the time. This can be > > done by only changing one paragraph in the draft (section guidelines for > > mapping other ISUP flavors). > > > > If nobody thinks that this is a bad idea we will go ahead and change it. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Gonzalo > > -- > > Gonzalo Camarillo Phone : +1 212 939 71 71 > > Columbia University Mobile: +358 40 702 35 35 > > 472 Computer Science Building Fax : +358 9 299 30 52 > > 1214 Amsterdam Ave., Mail Code 0401 http://www.hut.fi/~gonzalo > > New York, NY 10027 > > USA Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > > To subscribe to it, send mail to > > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > > > N¬–+-ŠÇč­Ę'¶)îŠxz÷Ą˘™žžÚ¶’ úk˘Ú˘TázČ©Šjezg§¶Šě–+-ŠËaz™Zqëhv+şË"š™^™éíjبť©Ý¶ŠŢqčŻy§o‰Ç¨žéÝz»-jwbž±ŠËbž"Ą:,ą»®&޶­±éÝ™¨Ą¶‹"¦)©•éžžÚ+˛·Şąë-rÇ(–雉§ť»­†Ë›±Ęâm觶› --------------C59BA7F075E15358F88BB793 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="christer.holmberg.vcf" Content-Description: Card for Christer Holmberg Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="christer.holmberg.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit begin:vcard n:Holmberg;Christer tel;cell:+358-40-5604412 tel;work:+358-9-2992943 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Ericsson;IP Multimedia / Advanced Signalling Research Laboratory adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 email;internet:christer.holmberg@lmf.ericsson.se title:System Designer fn:Christer Holmberg end:vcard --------------C59BA7F075E15358F88BB793-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 22 05:05:51 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id FAA12075 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 05:05:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB16544340; Tue, 22 May 2001 05:06:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from imr2.ericy.com (imr2.ericy.com [12.34.240.68]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71D6B44338 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 05:05:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mr7.exu.ericsson.se (mr7att.ericy.com [138.85.92.15]) by imr2.ericy.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4M95m826710; Tue, 22 May 2001 04:05:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from newman.exu.ericsson.se (newman.exu.ericsson.se [138.85.75.179]) by mr7.exu.ericsson.se (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4M95mp14953; Tue, 22 May 2001 04:05:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pc050163 (pc4218.es.eu.ericsson.se [159.107.4.218]) by newman.exu.ericsson.se (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA07662; Tue, 22 May 2001 04:05:42 -0500 (CDT) Reply-To: From: "Adam Roach" To: "'Christer Holmberg'" , Cc: "'Gonzalo Camarillo'" , "sip" , "Jon Peterson" Subject: RE: [SIP] RE: 183 vs. INFO Message-ID: <000201c0e29e$ae9feb00$da046b9f@pc050163.exu.ericsson.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3B0A1496.2EF55613@lmf.ericsson.se> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 04:07:51 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > -----Original Message----- > From: Christer Holmberg [mailto:christer.holmberg@lmf.ericsson.se] > How will proxies handle INFOs that are sent, no matter the direction, > before the call is established? If there is a problem, should > we define > a Proxy-Require tag ("sipt", or something) to make sure that > all proxies > in the path will support this? Any proxy, except horribly, HORRIBLY broken ones, will proxy on unknown methods just fine. This isn't a problem. /a _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 22 07:36:54 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id HAA13738 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 07:36:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA6D844340; Tue, 22 May 2001 07:37:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from qnsgs000.nortel.com (h237s130a211n47.user.nortelnetworks.com [47.211.130.237]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BC0544338 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 07:36:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nwcwi1a.europe.nortel.com by qnsgs000.nortel.com; Tue, 22 May 2001 12:29:56 +0100 Received: by nwcwi1a.europe.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 22 May 2001 12:29:55 +0100 Message-ID: From: "Mark Watson" To: William Marshall , sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] Comments on draft-ietf-sip-cc-transfer-04 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C0E2B2.86FBAA30" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 12:29:56 +0100 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0E2B2.86FBAA30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" William Marshall wrote: > 1. The Referred-By header defined in draft-ietf-sip-cc-transfer-04 > looks like a subset of the Remote-Party-ID header defined in > draft-ietf-sip-privacy-02. I see no reason why two separate > headers need to be defined for the same purpose; I recommend > cc-transfer utilize the Remote-Party-ID header instead of defining > its own. > > This seems an excellent idea. One of the objects in the privacy draft was to provide a generic capability for transport of identity information - now that we have the capability, it makes sense to use it. Regards, Mark Watson Nortel Networks ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0E2B2.86FBAA30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [SIP] Comments on draft-ietf-sip-cc-transfer-04

William Marshall wrote:
> 1.  The Referred-By header defined in = draft-ietf-sip-cc-transfer-04
> looks like a subset of the Remote-Party-ID = header defined in
> draft-ietf-sip-privacy-02.  I see no = reason why two separate
> headers need to be defined for the same = purpose; I recommend
> cc-transfer utilize the Remote-Party-ID header = instead of defining
> its own.
>
>

This seems an excellent idea. One of the objects in = the privacy draft was to provide a generic capability for transport of = identity information - now that we have the capability, it makes sense = to use it.

Regards,

Mark Watson
Nortel Networks 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C0E2B2.86FBAA30-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 22 09:05:52 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA16548 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 09:05:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F86944340; Tue, 22 May 2001 09:06:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mail-green.research.att.com (H-135-207-30-103.research.att.com [135.207.30.103]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3637C44338 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 09:05:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from alliance.research.att.com (alliance.research.att.com [135.207.26.26]) by mail-green.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30F8A1EBB7; Tue, 22 May 2001 09:05:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fish.research.att.com (fish.research.att.com [135.207.27.137]) by alliance.research.att.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA10424; Tue, 22 May 2001 09:05:00 -0400 (EDT) From: William Marshall Received: (from wtm@localhost) by fish.research.att.com (SGI-8.9.3/8.8.5) id JAA14582; Tue, 22 May 2001 09:04:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105221304.JAA14582@fish.research.att.com> To: rsparks@dynamicsoft.com, sip@lists.bell-labs.com Cc: RShah@dynamicsoft.com, dwillis@dynamicsoft.com, Brian.Rosen@marconi.com, jo@tzi.uni-bremen.de Subject: RE: [SIP] Comments on draft-ietf-sip-cc-transfer-04 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 09:04:50 -0400 (EDT) Robert Sparks wrote: > Bill - Thanks for digging though this. I'm assuming (based on > the last section of your feedback) that you did this as a nit-review > assignment? Actually, it was done based purely on the Last Call Calendar on the SIP Supplemental Page (and my volunteering to be a reviewer by attending the working sessions at last IETF meeting). No formal assignment. I've been a little puzzled by the dates on the calendar, though, and the lack of formal announcements on the mail list about last calls. (e.g., is draft-ietf-sip-guidelines-02 in last call right now? Does session-timer go to IESG today?) Bill Marshall wtm@research.att.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 22 11:47:54 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA23195 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 11:47:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD90344342; Tue, 22 May 2001 11:48:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F0F944340 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 07:04:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA12967; Tue, 22 May 2001 07:03:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105221103.HAA12967@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: [SIP] I-D ACTION:draft-rosenberg-sip-sctp-01.txt Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 07:03:51 -0400 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : SCTP as a Transport for SIP Author(s) : J. Rosenberg, H. Schulzrinne Filename : draft-rosenberg-sip-sctp-01.txt Pages : 8 Date : 21-May-01 This document specifies a mechanism for usage of SCTP (the Stream Control Transmisson Protocol) as the transport between SIP entities. SCTP is a new protocol which provides several features that may prove beneficial for transport between SIP entities which exchange a large amount of messages, including gateways and proxies. As SIP is transport independent, support of SCTP is a relatively straightforward process, nearly identical to support for TCP. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rosenberg-sip-sctp-01.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-rosenberg-sip-sctp-01.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-rosenberg-sip-sctp-01.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20010521131257.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-rosenberg-sip-sctp-01.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-rosenberg-sip-sctp-01.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20010521131257.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 22 11:49:40 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA23271 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 11:49:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D455B443C0; Tue, 22 May 2001 11:48:16 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BD1144340 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 07:04:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA13143; Tue, 22 May 2001 07:04:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105221104.HAA13143@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: [SIP] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-privacy-02.txt Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 07:04:39 -0400 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Session Initiation Protocol Working Group of the IETF. Title : SIP Extensions for Caller Identity and Privacy Author(s) : B. Marshall et al. Filename : draft-ietf-sip-privacy-02.txt Pages : 24 Date : 21-May-01 This document describes extensions to the Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) that allow parties in a SIP session to be identified by different types of party information such as calling and called party. For each type of party information, different types of identity information, e.g. subscriber, or terminal, can be provided. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-privacy-02.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-sip-privacy-02.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-privacy-02.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20010521131428.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-privacy-02.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-sip-privacy-02.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20010521131428.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 22 14:16:53 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id OAA28857 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 14:16:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F34544342; Tue, 22 May 2001 14:17:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from broadsof.temp.veriohosting.com (broadsof.temp.veriohosting.com [161.58.239.68]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C73D744338 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 14:16:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tate ([64.243.180.244]) by broadsof.temp.veriohosting.com (8.11.2) id f4MIGBY46266; Tue, 22 May 2001 14:16:11 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: From: "Brett Tate" To: , "'sip'" Subject: RE: [SIP] RE: 183 vs. INFO Message-ID: <002001c0e2eb$a18bf5b0$2b01a8c0@broadsoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 In-Reply-To: <000101c0e28d$bc1a9a20$da046b9f@pc050163.exu.ericsson.se> Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 14:18:41 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Actually, the out of order delivery does not represent a problem in > > 99.9% of the cases. (I cannot think of a situation whn we > will have a > > problem because of this). Therefore, folks have suggested > to recommend > > that INFO is used regardless of the state of the > establishment of the > > call. > > Actually, INFO is perfectly ordered once you take into consideration > the requirement that you can have at most one INFO outstanding > at a time. This is a no-brainer. Use INFO. Adam, Where is the "only one INFO outstanding" requirement mentioned? I haven't noticed it in RFC 2976. Or were you proposing that the isup-sip mapping draft contain a statement requiring an INFO response before sending the next INFO request. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 23 01:28:54 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id BAA14689 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 01:28:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1015544339; Wed, 23 May 2001 01:29:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se (penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [194.237.142.110]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73A3844338 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 01:28:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fogerty.lmf.ericsson.se (fogerty.lmf.ericsson.se [131.160.11.6]) by penguin.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.11.0/8.10.1/WIREfire-1.3) with ESMTP id f4N5SgO04540; Wed, 23 May 2001 07:28:42 +0200 (MEST) Received: from lmf.ericsson.se (E005004B52C74.lmf.ericsson.se [131.160.30.161]) by fogerty.lmf.ericsson.se (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4N5SfJ24085; Wed, 23 May 2001 08:28:41 +0300 (EET DST) Message-ID: <3B0B4A84.1CEECF79@lmf.ericsson.se> From: Christer Holmberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: brett@broadsoft.com Cc: adam.roach@ericsson.com, "'sip'" Subject: Re: [SIP] RE: 183 vs. INFO References: <002001c0e2eb$a18bf5b0$2b01a8c0@broadsoft.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------478E6EE320B000ECA0A7A2DB" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 08:28:36 +0300 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------478E6EE320B000ECA0A7A2DB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Brett, This has nothing to do with the INFO method itself, or ISUP-SIP. It is related to the issue of having overlapping transactions in SIP, no matter the request method (INVITE is a special case, though). Regards, Christer Holmberg Ericsson Finland Brett Tate wrote: > > > > Actually, the out of order delivery does not represent a problem in > > > 99.9% of the cases. (I cannot think of a situation whn we > > will have a > > > problem because of this). Therefore, folks have suggested > > to recommend > > > that INFO is used regardless of the state of the > > establishment of the > > > call. > > > > Actually, INFO is perfectly ordered once you take into consideration > > the requirement that you can have at most one INFO outstanding > > at a time. This is a no-brainer. Use INFO. > > Adam, > > Where is the "only one INFO outstanding" requirement > mentioned? I haven't noticed it in RFC 2976. Or > were you proposing that the isup-sip mapping draft > contain a statement requiring an INFO response before > sending the next INFO request. > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. --------------478E6EE320B000ECA0A7A2DB Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="christer.holmberg.vcf" Content-Description: Card for Christer Holmberg Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="christer.holmberg.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit begin:vcard n:Holmberg;Christer tel;cell:+358-40-5604412 tel;work:+358-9-2992943 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Ericsson;IP Multimedia / Advanced Signalling Research Laboratory adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 email;internet:christer.holmberg@lmf.ericsson.se title:System Designer fn:Christer Holmberg end:vcard --------------478E6EE320B000ECA0A7A2DB-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 23 03:57:52 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id DAA28803 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 03:57:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF0D944339; Wed, 23 May 2001 03:58:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from imr2.ericy.com (imr2.ericy.com [12.34.240.68]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E0E644338 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 03:57:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mr6.exu.ericsson.se (mr6att.ericy.com [138.85.92.14]) by imr2.ericy.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4N7v9813732; Wed, 23 May 2001 02:57:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from newman.exu.ericsson.se (newman.exu.ericsson.se [138.85.75.179]) by mr6.exu.ericsson.se (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4N7v8k07382; Wed, 23 May 2001 02:57:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pc050163 (pc4218.es.eu.ericsson.se [159.107.4.218]) by newman.exu.ericsson.se (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA01548; Wed, 23 May 2001 02:57:02 -0500 (CDT) Reply-To: From: "Adam Roach" To: , , "'sip'" Subject: RE: [SIP] RE: 183 vs. INFO Message-ID: <000001c0e35e$43699dc0$da046b9f@pc050163.exu.ericsson.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <002001c0e2eb$a18bf5b0$2b01a8c0@broadsoft.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 02:59:13 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > -----Original Message----- > From: Brett Tate [mailto:brett@broadsoft.com] > > > Actually, INFO is perfectly ordered once you take into consideration > > the requirement that you can have at most one INFO outstanding > > at a time. This is a no-brainer. Use INFO. > > Adam, > > Where is the "only one INFO outstanding" requirement > mentioned? I haven't noticed it in RFC 2976. Or > were you proposing that the isup-sip mapping draft > contain a statement requiring an INFO response before > sending the next INFO request. This is a specialized restatment of the SIP WG decision that (except for INVITE, which may be pending while other transactions complete, and CANCEL, which may complete while other transactions are pending), no two transactions in the same leg in the same direction may overlap. /a _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 23 09:45:53 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA05057 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 09:45:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE2D544338; Wed, 23 May 2001 09:46:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from sj-msg-core-2.cisco.com (sj-msg-core-2.cisco.com [171.69.24.11]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC6E044337 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 09:45:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sponge.cisco.com (sponge.cisco.com [64.101.128.87]) by sj-msg-core-2.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id f4NDjdU00348; Wed, 23 May 2001 06:45:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from arunvenkpc ([10.96.3.83]) by sponge.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with SMTP id AAZ06810; Wed, 23 May 2001 08:45:07 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <003801c0e38e$7be2dba0$5303600a@cisco.com> From: "Arunachalam Venkatraman" To: , "'sip'" References: <000001c0e35e$43699dc0$da046b9f@pc050163.exu.ericsson.se> Subject: Re: [SIP] RE: 183 vs. INFO MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 08:44:26 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Adam Where are the working group decisisons recorded? It is useful to have access to these nuggests. Venkat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adam Roach" To: ; ; "'sip'" Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 2:59 AM Subject: RE: [SIP] RE: 183 vs. INFO > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Brett Tate [mailto:brett@broadsoft.com] > > > > > Actually, INFO is perfectly ordered once you take into consideration > > > the requirement that you can have at most one INFO outstanding > > > at a time. This is a no-brainer. Use INFO. > > > > Adam, > > > > Where is the "only one INFO outstanding" requirement > > mentioned? I haven't noticed it in RFC 2976. Or > > were you proposing that the isup-sip mapping draft > > contain a statement requiring an INFO response before > > sending the next INFO request. > > This is a specialized restatment of the SIP WG decision that > (except for INVITE, which may be pending while other transactions > complete, and CANCEL, which may complete while other transactions > are pending), no two transactions in the same leg in the same > direction may overlap. > > /a > > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 23 09:47:52 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA05125 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 09:47:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA2D74435F; Wed, 23 May 2001 09:48:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B930F44338 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 07:16:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA00388; Wed, 23 May 2001 07:16:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105231116.HAA00388@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: [SIP] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-overlap-00.txt Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 07:16:01 -0400 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Session Initiation Protocol Working Group of the IETF. Title : Mapping of ISUP Overlap Signalling to SIP Author(s) : G. Camarillo, A. Roach, J. Peterson, L. Ong Filename : draft-ietf-sip-overlap-00.txt Pages : 8 Date : 22-May-01 This document describes a way to map ISUP overlap signalling to SIP. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-overlap-00.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-sip-overlap-00.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-overlap-00.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20010522134833.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-overlap-00.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-sip-overlap-00.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20010522134833.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 23 10:03:53 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA05447 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 10:03:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFCDF44388; Wed, 23 May 2001 10:04:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from motgate2.mot.com (motgate2.mot.com [136.182.1.10]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E8B044387 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 10:03:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: [from pobox.mot.com (pobox.mot.com [129.188.137.100]) by motgate2.mot.com (motgate2 2.1) with ESMTP id HAA10296 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 07:03:20 -0700 (MST)] Received: [from il27exb01.cig.mot.com (il27exb01.cig.mot.com [136.182.15.100]) by pobox.mot.com (MOT-pobox 2.0) with ESMTP id HAA28701 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 07:03:20 -0700 (MST)] Received: by il27exb01.cig.mot.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 23 May 2001 09:03:20 -0500 Message-ID: <35DBB8B7AC89D4118E98009027B1009B1F248B@IL27EXM10.cig.mot.com> From: Baniel Uri-CUB001 To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [SIP] A question about 2543Bis02 PDF version section 16.2 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 09:03:11 -0500 2543Bis02 PDF version section 16.2 ================================== C->S: INVITE sip:bob@one.example.com SIP/2.0 Via: SIP/2.0/UDP sip.example.com;branch=7c337f30d7ce.1 ;maddr=239.128.16.254;ttl=16 Via: SIP/2.0/UDP mouse.wonderland.com S->C: SIP/2.0 180 Ringing Via: SIP/2.0/UDP csvax.cs.caltech.edu;branch=7c337f30d7ce.1 ;maddr=239.128.16.254;ttl=16 Via: SIP/2.0/UDP north.east.isi.edu Why have the host names in the Via header fields got changed? Is 'csvax.cs.caltech.edu' is just another alias to 'sip.example.com' ? Same with 'north.east.isi.edu' and 'mouse.wonderland.com' ? ================================================================= Uri.Baniel@motorola.com, Tel: (847) 632 4616; Fax: (847) 632 3963; "Learning that does not daily increase will daily decrease" E.w.c ================================================================= _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 23 11:00:52 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA06600 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 11:00:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 948C244337; Wed, 23 May 2001 11:01:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from cisco.com (europe.cisco.com [144.254.52.73]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 081D144336 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 11:00:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEA-W2K.cisco.com (par-ilm-dhcp1-vl132-16.cisco.com [144.254.57.211]) by cisco.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA13145 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 17:00:19 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010523164817.017c0fd8@europe.cisco.com> X-Sender: dea@europe.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com From: David Auerbach Subject: [SIP] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-isup-01.txt Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 17:00:29 +0200 In looking at this draft and the SIP-T draft : I think it would be good for the draft(s) to address procedures for the case when an IAM is received at the ingress MGC with a COT on Previous circuit indication in the nature of call indicators. If the COT on previous indication is carried by the INVITE in the embedded ISUP to the egress MGC and sent in a subsequent IAM, either 1. a procedure should be defined for delivering the eventual COT message through the SIP network (INFO?) or 2. the ingress MGC must break the COT on previous chain and not send an INVITE with the embedded IAM indicating COT on previous. In this case, it the ingress MGC would have to hold up the INVITE until the COT message is received. Regards, David Auerbach EMEA Technology Center Cisco Systems Europe _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 23 11:20:54 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA07100 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 11:20:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A84D443AC; Wed, 23 May 2001 11:21:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from imr1.ericy.com (imr1.ericy.com [208.237.135.240]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D22C644370 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 11:20:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mr7.exu.ericsson.se (mr7u3.ericy.com [208.237.135.122]) by imr1.ericy.com (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4NFKfa27961; Wed, 23 May 2001 10:20:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from newman.exu.ericsson.se (newman.exu.ericsson.se [138.85.75.179]) by mr7.exu.ericsson.se (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4NFKfi25445; Wed, 23 May 2001 10:20:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pc050163 (pc4218.es.eu.ericsson.se [159.107.4.218]) by newman.exu.ericsson.se (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA17208; Wed, 23 May 2001 10:20:38 -0500 (CDT) Reply-To: From: "Adam Roach" To: "'David Auerbach'" , Subject: RE: [SIP] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-isup-01.txt Message-ID: <000801c0e39c$3a963620$da046b9f@pc050163.exu.ericsson.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010523164817.017c0fd8@europe.cisco.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 10:22:49 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It would be the second choice: there's no point in checking circuit continuity across an IP network. I think this is actually discussed in the draft. Specifically, if my memory serves, it is the example that we give for the class of problems that we will not attempt to solve in this draft. ISUP administrative procedures (such as circuit maintanance) are outlined in their relevant specifcations, and don't need to be repeated in ours. An additional factor is that the procedure you talk about is ANSI specific. You need to keep in mind that each flavor of ISUP has its own maintanance procedures; repeating all of these procedures for all flavors and detailing exactly how they will work for a SIP-ISUP gateway would take years, and result in a several-thousand page document. In this case (as with others), the correct answer is rather obvious: it just takes a very brief rumination on the meaning of circuit continutity testing and some common sense to figure out how to implement this sort of function in the spirit of the ISUP specs. /a > -----Original Message----- > From: David Auerbach [mailto:dea@cisco.com] > Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 10:00 AM > To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com > Subject: [SIP] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-isup-01.txt > > > In looking at this draft and the SIP-T draft : > > I think it would be good for the draft(s) to address > procedures for the > case when an IAM is received > at the ingress MGC with a COT on Previous circuit indication > in the nature > of call indicators. If the > COT on previous indication is carried by the INVITE in the > embedded ISUP to > the egress MGC and > sent in a subsequent IAM, either > > 1. a procedure should be defined for delivering the > eventual COT message > through the SIP > network (INFO?) > > or > > 2. the ingress MGC must break the COT on previous > chain and not send an > INVITE > with the embedded IAM indicating COT on previous. In > this case, it the > ingress > MGC would have to hold up the INVITE until the COT > message is received. > > Regards, > > David Auerbach > EMEA Technology Center > Cisco Systems Europe > > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 23 11:46:52 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA07731 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 11:46:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44DD84435A; Wed, 23 May 2001 11:47:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from cisco.com (europe.cisco.com [144.254.52.73]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E216744337 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 11:46:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEA-W2K.cisco.com (par-ilm-dhcp1-vl132-16.cisco.com [144.254.57.211]) by cisco.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA08802; Wed, 23 May 2001 17:46:51 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010523174215.017c12d0@europe.cisco.com> X-Sender: dea@europe.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 To: From: David Auerbach Subject: RE: [SIP] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-isup-01.txt Cc: In-Reply-To: <000801c0e39c$3a963620$da046b9f@pc050163.exu.ericsson.se> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010523164817.017c0fd8@europe.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 17:47:05 +0200 Adam, Thanks for your comments - I was not implying that we would want to check continuity across the IP network ... the reason for the COT on previous was to allow for a pipeline of COT across a series of switches to reduce dial delay. So I did not think the answer was that straight forward. This bit is found in Q.763 and I did not think it was limited to ANSI only. David _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 23 11:50:54 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA07903 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 11:50:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE22E443CA; Wed, 23 May 2001 11:51:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from june.Broomfield1.level3.net (june.Broomfield1.Level3.net [209.245.18.7]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0F49443CA for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 11:50:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from f1ee40-19.idc1.level3.com (hme0.f1ee40-19.idc1.oss.level3.com [10.1.144.204]) by june.Broomfield1.level3.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA17236; Wed, 23 May 2001 15:50:05 GMT From: Jon.Peterson@Level3.com Received: from n0195idc1.oss.level3.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by f1ee40-19.idc1.level3.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA14869; Wed, 23 May 2001 15:50:01 GMT Received: by n0195idc1.oss.level3.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 23 May 2001 09:50:01 -0600 Message-ID: <6384220893BCD411BDFE0008C791B79CA3E5A7@N0228IDC1.oss.level3.com> To: dea@cisco.com, sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-isup-01.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 09:49:56 -0600 This sort of scenario is also addressed in the SIP-T Contexts and Architectures draft: http://search.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-vemuri-sip-t-context-02.txt ... in section 8 note number 4, so at the very least this is a known problem. As Adam noted, this is only one of a whole class of such problems. While your suggestions could potentially work, I think that in all instances this is probably something that a terminating gateway should address by ignoring certain aspects of the received encapsulated ISUP if they are determined to be out of date or inappropriate. I don't think that sending the COT or what have you is necessary - the terminating gateway has no use for this information; bug I agree with you that the originating gateway should withhold the INVITE in this case until it receives a COT - in fact, this is specified explicitly in draft-ietf-sip-isup-01 section 10.3. I envision that there will be a new SIP-T draft at some point that will address several types of potential ISUP modification in greater detail, including this sort of case. Jon Peterson Level(3) Communications -----Original Message----- From: David Auerbach [mailto:dea@cisco.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 9:00 AM To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: [SIP] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-isup-01.txt In looking at this draft and the SIP-T draft : I think it would be good for the draft(s) to address procedures for the case when an IAM is received at the ingress MGC with a COT on Previous circuit indication in the nature of call indicators. If the COT on previous indication is carried by the INVITE in the embedded ISUP to the egress MGC and sent in a subsequent IAM, either 1. a procedure should be defined for delivering the eventual COT message through the SIP network (INFO?) or 2. the ingress MGC must break the COT on previous chain and not send an INVITE with the embedded IAM indicating COT on previous. In this case, it the ingress MGC would have to hold up the INVITE until the COT message is received. Regards, David Auerbach EMEA Technology Center Cisco Systems Europe _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 23 12:13:53 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA08615 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 12:13:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EBC444373; Wed, 23 May 2001 12:14:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from prue.eim.surrey.ac.uk (prue.eim.surrey.ac.uk [131.227.76.5]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D6CF44370 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 12:13:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sparta.ee.surrey.ac.uk ([131.227.86.12] ident=exim) by prue.eim.surrey.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 152bFe-0007R0-00; Wed, 23 May 2001 17:12:46 +0100 Received: from eep1vk (helo=localhost) by sparta.ee.surrey.ac.uk with local-esmtp (Exim 2.12 #5) id 152bFa-0007KK-00; Wed, 23 May 2001 17:12:42 +0100 From: Victor Kueh X-Sender: eep1vk@sparta.ee.surrey.ac.uk To: Uri.Baniel@motorola.com Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: Re: [SIP] A question about 2543Bis02 PDF version section 16.2 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Scanner: exiscan *152bFe-0007R0-00*su3lA0Qp1aw* http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/ Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 17:12:42 +0100 (BST) Hi Uri, I have also come across this 'inconsistency' a few months back. Then after I referred to RFC 2543, I came to the conclusion that it is a typo mistake in that they have forgotten to change them from previous version in RFC 2543(ie. from 'csvax.cs.caltech.edu' to 'sip.example.com' and 'north.east.isi.edu' to 'mouse.wonderland.com' , etc. HTH. Cheers, Victor ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 2543Bis02 PDF version section 16.2 ================================== C->S: INVITE sip:bob@one.example.com SIP/2.0 Via: SIP/2.0/UDP sip.example.com;branch=7c337f30d7ce.1 ;maddr=239.128.16.254;ttl=16 Via: SIP/2.0/UDP mouse.wonderland.com S->C: SIP/2.0 180 Ringing Via: SIP/2.0/UDP csvax.cs.caltech.edu;branch=7c337f30d7ce.1 ;maddr=239.128.16.254;ttl=16 Via: SIP/2.0/UDP north.east.isi.edu Why have the host names in the Via header fields got changed? Is 'csvax.cs.caltech.edu' is just another alias to 'sip.example.com' ? Same with 'north.east.isi.edu' and 'mouse.wonderland.com' ? ================================================================= Uri.Baniel@motorola.com, Tel: (847) 632 4616; Fax: (847) 632 3963; "Learning that does not daily increase will daily decrease" E.w.c ================================================================= _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 23 13:50:53 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA11034 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 13:50:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ACD34435A; Wed, 23 May 2001 13:51:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from ftpbox.mot.com (ftpbox.mot.com [129.188.136.101]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FD0F44338 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 13:50:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: [from pobox.mot.com (pobox.mot.com [129.188.137.100]) by ftpbox.mot.com (ftpbox 2.1) with ESMTP id KAA09092 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 10:50:35 -0700 (MST)] Received: [from il75exm04.cig.mot.com ([136.182.110.113]) by pobox.mot.com (MOT-pobox 2.0) with ESMTP id KAA19234 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 10:50:35 -0700 (MST)] Received: by IL75EXM04 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 23 May 2001 12:50:34 -0500 Message-ID: <35DBB8B7AC89D4118E98009027B1009B1F2486@IL27EXM10.cig.mot.com> From: Baniel Uri-CUB001 To: "'Sip (E-mail)" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [SIP] A question about 2543Bis02 PDF version section 16.2 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 13:43:58 -0500 2543Bis02 PDF version section 16.2 ================================== C->S: INVITE sip:bob@one.example.com SIP/2.0 Via: SIP/2.0/UDP sip.example.com;branch=7c337f30d7ce.1 ;maddr=239.128.16.254;ttl=16 Via: SIP/2.0/UDP mouse.wonderland.com S->C: SIP/2.0 180 Ringing Via: SIP/2.0/UDP csvax.cs.caltech.edu;branch=7c337f30d7ce.1 ;maddr=239.128.16.254;ttl=16 Via: SIP/2.0/UDP north.east.isi.edu Why have the host names in the Via header fields got changed? Is it true that 'csvax.cs.caltech.edu' is just another alias to 'sip.example.com' ? Same with 'north.east.isi.edu' and 'mouse.wonderland.com' ? ================================================================= Uri.Baniel@motorola.com, Tel: (847) 632 4616; Fax: (847) 632 3963; "Learning that does not daily increase will daily decrease" E.w.c ================================================================= _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 23 14:10:54 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id OAA11423 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 14:10:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C94884435A; Wed, 23 May 2001 14:11:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from broadsof.temp.veriohosting.com (broadsof.temp.veriohosting.com [161.58.239.68]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D13C644337 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 14:10:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tate ([64.243.180.244]) by broadsof.temp.veriohosting.com (8.11.2) id f4NIA4X62000; Wed, 23 May 2001 14:10:04 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: From: "Brett Tate" To: "SIP (E-mail)" Message-ID: <003e01c0e3b3$f2e35610$2b01a8c0@broadsoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Subject: [SIP] Multiple requests outstanding in same direction on same call-leg Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 14:12:36 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In thread http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/2001q2/006996.html, Adam and Christer mentioned that there is now a restriction that only 1 request can be outstanding in the same direction at the same time on a call-leg. They mentioned that exceptions are made during an inviting/re-inviting situations, and exceptions are made for CANCEL. I assume that the same exception would be made for a BYE. What IETF/WG meeting minutes, email, or draft captures the restriction mentioned by Adam? What were the reasons for the restriction? It seems like the need for such a message throttling requirement is context specific. Thanks in advance for a response. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 23 15:07:53 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id PAA12358 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 15:07:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0154E4434D; Wed, 23 May 2001 15:08:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from motgate2.mot.com (motgate2.mot.com [136.182.1.10]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D36D844338 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 15:07:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: [from pobox2.mot.com (pobox2.mot.com [136.182.15.8]) by motgate2.mot.com (motgate2 2.1) with ESMTP id MAA19623 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 12:07:34 -0700 (MST)] Received: [from il75exm04.cig.mot.com ([136.182.110.113]) by pobox2.mot.com (MOT-pobox2 2.0) with ESMTP id MAA13603 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 12:07:34 -0700 (MST)] Received: by IL75EXM04 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 23 May 2001 14:07:33 -0500 Message-ID: <35DBB8B7AC89D4118E98009027B1009B1F248F@IL27EXM10.cig.mot.com> From: Baniel Uri-CUB001 To: "'Victor Kueh'" , Baniel Uri-CUB001 Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] A question about 2543Bis02 PDF version section 16.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 14:07:33 -0500 Okay.. If I do not hear a denial within couple of days, then I guess you are right... ================================================================= Uri.Baniel@motorola.com, Tel: (847) 632 4616; Fax: (847) 632 3963; "Learning that does not daily increase will daily decrease" E.w.c ================================================================= > -----Original Message----- > From: Victor Kueh [mailto:v.kueh@eim.surrey.ac.uk] > Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 11:13 AM > To: Uri.Baniel > Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com > Subject: Re: [SIP] A question about 2543Bis02 PDF version section 16.2 > > > Hi Uri, > > I have also come across this 'inconsistency' a few months > back. Then after I referred to RFC 2543, I came to the > conclusion that it > is a typo mistake in that they have forgotten to change them from > previous version in RFC 2543(ie. from 'csvax.cs.caltech.edu' to > 'sip.example.com' and 'north.east.isi.edu' to > 'mouse.wonderland.com' , > etc. > > HTH. > > Cheers, > Victor > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > 2543Bis02 PDF version section 16.2 > ================================== > > C->S: INVITE sip:bob@one.example.com SIP/2.0 > Via: SIP/2.0/UDP sip.example.com;branch=7c337f30d7ce.1 > ;maddr=239.128.16.254;ttl=16 > Via: SIP/2.0/UDP mouse.wonderland.com > > S->C: SIP/2.0 180 Ringing > Via: SIP/2.0/UDP csvax.cs.caltech.edu;branch=7c337f30d7ce.1 > ;maddr=239.128.16.254;ttl=16 > Via: SIP/2.0/UDP north.east.isi.edu > > Why have the host names in the Via header fields got changed? > Is 'csvax.cs.caltech.edu' is just another alias to 'sip.example.com' ? > Same with 'north.east.isi.edu' and 'mouse.wonderland.com' ? > > ================================================================= > Uri.Baniel@motorola.com, > Tel: (847) 632 4616; Fax: (847) 632 3963; > "Learning that does not daily increase will daily decrease" E.w.c > ================================================================= > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 23 16:13:58 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA13830 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 16:13:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D015D44345; Wed, 23 May 2001 16:14:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from motgate2.mot.com (motgate2.mot.com [136.182.1.10]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE73D44338 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 16:13:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: [from pobox2.mot.com (pobox2.mot.com [136.182.15.8]) by motgate2.mot.com (motgate2 2.1) with ESMTP id NAA11455 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 13:13:20 -0700 (MST)] Received: [from il75exm04.cig.mot.com ([136.182.110.113]) by pobox2.mot.com (MOT-pobox2 2.0) with ESMTP id NAA06046 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 13:13:16 -0700 (MST)] Received: by IL75EXM04 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 23 May 2001 15:13:16 -0500 Message-ID: <35DBB8B7AC89D4118E98009027B1009B1F2493@IL27EXM10.cig.mot.com> From: Baniel Uri-CUB001 To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [SIP] Two quick comments for next version of the Bis Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 15:13:13 -0500 Jonathan, Henning Two quick comments for the sake of next version of the bis: 1. 16.2 (Invitation to a multicast) - some mismatch with host names in the Via headers. 2. 16.5 (forking proxy) looks like an ACK is missing for the 487 (or either say it textually) ================================================================= Uri.Baniel@motorola.com, Tel: (847) 632 4616; Fax: (847) 632 3963; "Learning that does not daily increase will daily decrease" E.w.c ================================================================= _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 23 16:17:50 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA13951 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 16:17:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6E54443E2; Wed, 23 May 2001 16:16:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from rwcxch02.clarent.com (unknown [208.205.112.130]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8684D443DD for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 16:15:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by rwcxch02.clarent.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 23 May 2001 13:11:46 -0700 Received: from rwcjfmule01 (rwc-jfmule01.clarent.com [10.1.75.229]) by rwcxch02.clarent.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id LL912T86; Wed, 23 May 2001 13:11:36 -0700 From: Jean-Francois Mule Reply-To: Jean-Francois Mule To: "'Gonzalo Camarillo'" , "'sip'" Cc: adam.roach@ericsson.com, "'Jon Peterson'" Subject: RE: [SIP] 183 vs. INFO: use INFO Message-ID: <001501c0e3c5$a27baad0$1374010a@rwcjfmule01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 In-Reply-To: <3B09D15B.A432FA65@lmf.ericsson.se> Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 13:19:12 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gonzalo Camarillo wrote: > Therefore, folks have suggested to recommend > that INFO is used regardless of the state of the establishment of the > call. > It has some advantages over 183: > 1) It is a more coherent solution, since (for instance), the > INR will be > sent always in an INFO, and not in a 183 or an INFO depending of the > situation. This can simplify implementations. > > 2) It makes a clar distintion between what is session progress (ACM, > CPGs) and what is a trasfer of PSTN signalling (INR...). As you know, I support this change of using the INFO instead of 183, specifically for the 2 reasons invoked above. Jean-Francois. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 23 21:02:53 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id VAA19103 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 21:02:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 771F3443D5; Wed, 23 May 2001 21:03:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se (penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [194.237.142.110]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3530344371 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 21:02:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailserver1.ericsson.se (mailserver1.ericsson.se [136.225.152.91]) by penguin.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.11.0/8.10.1/WIREfire-1.3) with ESMTP id f4O12uO08759 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 03:02:56 +0200 (MEST) Received: from lmf.ericsson.se (racom107022.am.ericsson.se [147.117.107.22]) by mailserver1.ericsson.se (8.9.3/8.9.3/eri-1.0) with ESMTP id DAA02800 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 03:03:13 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <3B0C5EDA.7EFF879@lmf.ericsson.se> From: Gonzalo Camarillo Organization: Oy L M Ericsson Ab X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sip Subject: [Fwd: [SIP] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-overlap-00.txt] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 04:07:38 +0300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, After the split of draft-ietf-sip-isup-00.txt we have released two drafts: draft-ietf-sip-isup-01.txt covers all the mapping stuff excluding overlap signalling. draft-ietf-sip-overlap-00.txt covers overlap signalling. Comments are welcome, Best regards, Gonzalo -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [SIP] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-overlap-00.txt Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 07:16:01 -0400 From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: IETF-Announce: ; CC: sip@lists.bell-labs.com --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Session Initiation Protocol Working Group of the IETF. Title : Mapping of ISUP Overlap Signalling to SIP Author(s) : G. Camarillo, A. Roach, J. Peterson, L. Ong Filename : draft-ietf-sip-overlap-00.txt Pages : 8 Date : 22-May-01 This document describes a way to map ISUP overlap signalling to SIP. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-overlap-00.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-sip-overlap-00.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-overlap-00.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-type: message/external-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20010522134833.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-overlap-00.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-sip-overlap-00.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 23 21:11:52 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id VAA19255 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 21:11:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 909CF443D5; Wed, 23 May 2001 21:12:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se (penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [194.237.142.110]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B401D44345 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 21:11:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailserver1.ericsson.se (mailserver1.ericsson.se [136.225.152.91]) by penguin.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.11.0/8.10.1/WIREfire-1.3) with ESMTP id f4O1BZO09513 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 03:11:35 +0200 (MEST) Received: from lmf.ericsson.se (racom107022.am.ericsson.se [147.117.107.22]) by mailserver1.ericsson.se (8.9.3/8.9.3/eri-1.0) with ESMTP id DAA04277 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 03:11:52 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <3B0C60E4.44C68285@lmf.ericsson.se> From: Gonzalo Camarillo Organization: Oy L M Ericsson Ab X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sip Subject: [Fwd: [SIP] I-D ACTION:draft-rosenberg-sip-sctp-01.txt] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 04:16:20 +0300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, This draft takes into consideration the last discussions about transporting SIP over SCTP. I hope this helps increase the number of implementations that experiment with SCTP. http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rosenberg-sip-sctp-01.txt The draft outlines the advantages that can derive from its use below SIP. Regards, Gonzalo -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [SIP] I-D ACTION:draft-rosenberg-sip-sctp-01.txt Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 07:03:51 -0400 From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: IETF-Announce: ; CC: sip@lists.bell-labs.com --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : SCTP as a Transport for SIP Author(s) : J. Rosenberg, H. Schulzrinne Filename : draft-rosenberg-sip-sctp-01.txt Pages : 8 Date : 21-May-01 This document specifies a mechanism for usage of SCTP (the Stream Control Transmisson Protocol) as the transport between SIP entities. SCTP is a new protocol which provides several features that may prove beneficial for transport between SIP entities which exchange a large amount of messages, including gateways and proxies. As SIP is transport independent, support of SCTP is a relatively straightforward process, nearly identical to support for TCP. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rosenberg-sip-sctp-01.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-rosenberg-sip-sctp-01.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-rosenberg-sip-sctp-01.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-type: message/external-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20010521131257.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-rosenberg-sip-sctp-01.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-rosenberg-sip-sctp-01.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 24 09:21:53 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA12700 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 09:21:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA49C44338; Thu, 24 May 2001 09:22:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C3F544338 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 16:11:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA13615; Wed, 23 May 2001 16:10:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105232010.QAA13615@ietf.org> To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: RFC Editor , IANA Cc: Internet Architecture Board Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com From: The IESG Subject: [SIP] Protocol Action: MIME media types for ISUP and QSIG Objects to Proposed Standard Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 16:10:32 -0400 The IESG has approved the Internet-Draft 'MIME media types for ISUP and QSIG Objects' as a Proposed Standard. This document is the product of the Session Initiation Protocol Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Allison Mankin and Scott Bradner. Technical Summary This draft defines MIME types for application/ISUP and application/QSIG objects for use in SIP applications, according to the rules defined in RFC 2048. These types can be used to identify ISUP and QSIG objects within a SIP message such as INVITE or INFO, as might be implemented when using SIP in an environment where part of the call involves interworking to the PSTN. ISUP (ISDN User part) defined in the ITU-T recommendations Q.761-4 is a signaling protocol used between telephony switches. There are configurations in which ISUP-encoded signaling information needs to be transported between SIP entities as part of the payload of SIP [RFC2543] messages, where those messages must also affect logic of intervening PSTN systems. QSIG is the analogous signaling protocol used between private branch exchanges to support calls within private telephony networks. There is a similar need to transport QSIG-encoded signaling information between SIP entities in some environments. The draft is specific to this usage and would not apply to the transportation of ISUP or QSIG messages in other applications. These media types are intended for ISUP or QSIG application information that is used within the context of a SIP session, and not as general purpose transport of SCN signaling. The definition of media types for ISUP and QSIG application information does not address fully how the non-SIP and SIP entities exchanging messages determine or negotiate compatibility. It is assumed that this is addressed by alternative means such as configuration of the interworking functions. The specification primarily defines the and registers the mime media types. Information contained in ISUP and QSIG bodies may include sensitive customer information, potentially requiring use of encryption. Payload encryption mechanisms are provided in RFC 2543 and should be used as appropriate for both the SIP message and the encapsulated ISUP and QSIG body. Working Group Summary The working group achieved consensus to advance the draft. Protocol Quality The draft was reviewed for the IESG by Allison Mankin. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 24 09:23:51 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA12754 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 09:23:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39C3D443C7; Thu, 24 May 2001 09:22:19 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from china.com (TCE-E-7-182-12.bta.net.cn [202.106.182.12]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id BF07844337 for ; Wed, 23 May 2001 18:24:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from china.com([10.1.7.101]) by china.com(AIMC 2.9.5.1) with SMTP id jm73b0c8d4d; Thr, 24 May 2001 06:24:29 +0800 Received: from loki.ietf.org([132.151.1.177]) by china.com(JetMail 2.5.3.0) with SMTP id jm4373b0b0acf; Tue, 22 May 2001 18:17:25 -0000 Received: (from adm@localhost) by loki.ietf.org (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) id KAA21549 for ietf-123-outbound.02@ietf.org; Tue, 22 May 2001 10:45:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [10.27.2.28]) by loki.ietf.org (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA19662 for ; Tue, 22 May 2001 07:04:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA13143; Tue, 22 May 2001 07:04:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105221104.HAA13143@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: [SIP] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-privacy-02.txt Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 07:04:39 -0400 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Session Initiation Protocol Working Group of the IETF. Title : SIP Extensions for Caller Identity and Privacy Author(s) : B. Marshall et al. Filename : draft-ietf-sip-privacy-02.txt Pages : 24 Date : 21-May-01 This document describes extensions to the Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) that allow parties in a SIP session to be identified by different types of party information such as calling and called party. For each type of party information, different types of identity information, e.g. subscriber, or terminal, can be provided. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-privacy-02.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-sip-privacy-02.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-privacy-02.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20010521131428.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-privacy-02.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-sip-privacy-02.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20010521131428.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 24 09:26:52 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA12840 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 09:26:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1101443DE; Thu, 24 May 2001 09:22:28 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from hotmail.com (f227.law15.hotmail.com [64.4.23.227]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAAEA44337 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 06:06:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 24 May 2001 03:06:22 -0700 Received: from 203.199.199.66 by lw15fd.law15.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 24 May 2001 10:06:22 GMT X-Originating-IP: [203.199.199.66] From: "manish kulkarni" To: SIP@lists.bell-labs.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 May 2001 10:06:22.0557 (UTC) FILETIME=[2F61A0D0:01C0E439] Subject: [SIP] Doubt in a implementation of Sip stateless Proxy server Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 10:06:22 -0000 hi, i am new user to Sip,and i have implemented a parser for a Sip message and it parses the Sip Message Line by Line.i want to implement a Stateless Proxy,i would like to know What methods my Stateless Proxy Should understand and What Responses it should generate.i went to RFC-2543 but it never says anything about the methods a stateless proxy should understand,it talks only about the methods understood by a Proxy Server,does that mean the method should be understood by a Statelss Proxy and a Stateful Proxy?.actually i am developing a Interfaces that will be used to write a stateless proxy,in that i have decided to give a interface for changing the Request-URI as the RFC-2543 says that the Proxy SHOULD change the request-URI,i am unable to procced in implementing the interface as it needs to DNS SRV lookup,can anyone tell me how far this interface would be relavent for a Stateless Proxy?.When a Proxy Receives a Request,it checks the Top most Via to see of the Request-URI is correct as seen by the proxy,now here i would like to know whether the proxy needs to keep a list of all the users it knows?.kindly clear my doubts.if they have already been discussed,sorry i might have missed in the mailing lists. Thank u. MANISH.R.K _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 24 10:15:52 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA14021 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 10:15:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32E17443B9; Thu, 24 May 2001 10:16:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0435443B2 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 10:15:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id KAA17583 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 10:19:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 24 May 2001 10:15:35 -0400 Message-ID: <9BF66EBF6BEFD942915B4D4D45C051F31803ED@DYN-TX-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com> From: Steve Donovan To: "'sip@lists.bell-labs.com'" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [SIP] FW: SIP Session Timer NITS Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 10:15:28 -0400 I am bringing a proposal from an off line discussion to the list, as it proposes a change to the existing session timer specification. -----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Rosenberg Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 11:13 PM To: Steve Donovan; 'Sean Olson (EUS)' Subject: RE: SIP Session Timer NITS > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Donovan > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 3:07 PM > To: 'Sean Olson (EUS)'; Steve Donovan; Jonathan Rosenberg > Subject: RE: SIP Session Timer NITS > > > > 3. If a UAS crashes and reboots, then receives a re-INVITE > refresh in which the To: has a tag parameter (informing > the UAS that this was an ongoing session before the crash), > shouldn't it be a MUST that the UAS insert a Session-Expires: 0 > and a Require: timer header? (Right now it is a SHOULD; first > paragraph on page 9) > > SRD> Jonathan, can you comment on this. I don't see a reason > it shouldn't be a MUST, but this was your wording. Was there > something specific you were thinking about? No; MUST would be appropriate. However, I'm not sure this bit is needed. The reason has to do with a decision we made at IETF 49. That decision was to say that if a mid-call request generates a 481, the UAC considers the call terminated. In that case, if a UAS gets a session timer refresh with a tag, and doesn't want to reconstitute the call, it can just generate a 481 and that terminates the call. The bit on using session timer is an alternate way to do it. I don't like it as much since it requires the session timer extension to provide a function which really belongs (and now is) in the baseline spec). So, perhaps we should remove that text altogether... --- Steven R. Donovan Architect dynamicsoft mailto:sdonovan@dynamicsoft.com 5100 Tennyson Parkway sip:sdonovan@sip.dynamicsoft.com Plano, Texas 75025 tel:+1-972-473-5469 http://www.dynamicsoft.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 24 10:45:55 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA14471 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 10:45:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6FB644338; Thu, 24 May 2001 10:46:07 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from ss8mail1.ss8ott (mail.ss8.ca [209.87.228.147]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E145D44337 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 10:45:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CONNIE ([192.168.1.238]) by ss8mail1.ss8ott with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id K0L38Q6F; Thu, 24 May 2001 10:45:19 -0400 From: "Connie Blanchard" To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: Subject: [SIP] Proxies adding Record-Route header when R-URI does not match Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 10:44:18 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Section 1.35.1 Record-Route Operation says: The Record-Route header field contains a globally reachable SIP-URI that identifies the proxy server, including an address parameter (maddr) that identifies its location. Each such proxy server adds the Request-URI of the incoming request to the beginning of the list. What if the Request-URI of the incoming request does not match a host on the proxy server? What should a proxy do if the R-URI that it receives is a Tel URL (which it understands) but wants to add a Record-Route header? Should it convert it to SIP-URI? and if so, what does it use as the host for this SIP-URI? _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 24 10:58:52 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA14727 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 10:58:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88AB2443EC; Thu, 24 May 2001 10:59:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mail.inetmail.att.net (mailhost1.inetmail.att.net [204.127.132.33]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3A93443B9 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 10:58:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashok ([12.41.17.196]) by mail.inetmail.att.net (mtiagic01) with SMTP id <20010524145807gi128279dee>; Thu, 24 May 2001 14:58:07 +0000 Message-ID: <008801c0e461$c1d38780$c411290c@masconit.com> Reply-To: "Ranjit Avasarala" From: "Ranjit Avasarala" To: "manish kulkarni" , References: Subject: Re: [SIP] Doubt in a implementation of Sip stateless Proxy server MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:56:47 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Manish, The basic difference between stateless and stateful proxy is stateless proxy forgets about the SIP request once it has forwarded. But stateful prxies remember the request so that they can associate the request with the corresponding response and also take care of any retransmissions if required. Also Stateful proxies maintain transaction states i.e in which state a transaction is .... like WaitingForFinalResponse or WaitingForACK , etc. But both types of proxies are logical. A physical proxy can act as both stateful and stateless depending on the requirement. HTH. Regards Ranjit Mascon Communication Technologies http://www.masconit.com ----- Original Message ----- From: manish kulkarni To: Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 5:06 AM Subject: [SIP] Doubt in a implementation of Sip stateless Proxy server hi, i am new user to Sip,and i have implemented a parser for a Sip message and it parses the Sip Message Line by Line.i want to implement a Stateless Proxy,i would like to know What methods my Stateless Proxy Should understand and What Responses it should generate.i went to RFC-2543 but it never says anything about the methods a stateless proxy should understand,it talks only about the methods understood by a Proxy Server,does that mean the method should be understood by a Statelss Proxy and a Stateful Proxy?.actually i am developing a Interfaces that will be used to write a stateless proxy,in that i have decided to give a interface for changing the Request-URI as the RFC-2543 says that the Proxy SHOULD change the request-URI,i am unable to procced in implementing the interface as it needs to DNS SRV lookup,can anyone tell me how far this interface would be relavent for a Stateless Proxy?.When a Proxy Receives a Request,it checks the Top most Via to see of the Request-URI is correct as seen by the proxy,now here i would like to know whether the proxy needs to keep a list of all the users it knows?.kindly clear my doubts.if they have already been discussed,sorry i might have missed in the mailing lists. Thank u. MANISH.R.K _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 24 11:55:52 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA16087 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 11:55:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BAB444338; Thu, 24 May 2001 11:56:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from cgpro.iccx.net (webmail.iccx.net [166.93.205.11]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D8C944337 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 11:55:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [166.93.90.129] (HELO hasher99) by cgpro.iccx.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4.6) with ESMTP id 47061402; Thu, 24 May 2001 09:55:23 -0600 Reply-To: From: "Michel A. Maddux" To: "'Ranjit Avasarala'" , "'manish kulkarni'" , Subject: RE: [SIP] Doubt in a implementation of Sip stateless Proxy server Message-ID: <001a01c0e469$f3bf6680$cc4c5da6@cxo.dec.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <008801c0e461$c1d38780$c411290c@masconit.com> Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:55:25 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At what point does a stateful proxy determine that a call is no longer valid/in use? Is this only via timer, sans BYE? thanks. /m. -----Original Message----- From: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com [mailto:sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com]On Behalf Of Ranjit Avasarala Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 8:57 AM To: manish kulkarni; SIP@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: Re: [SIP] Doubt in a implementation of Sip stateless Proxy server Hi Manish, The basic difference between stateless and stateful proxy is stateless proxy forgets about the SIP request once it has forwarded. But stateful prxies remember the request so that they can associate the request with the corresponding response and also take care of any retransmissions if required. Also Stateful proxies maintain transaction states i.e in which state a transaction is .... like WaitingForFinalResponse or WaitingForACK , etc. But both types of proxies are logical. A physical proxy can act as both stateful and stateless depending on the requirement. HTH. Regards Ranjit Mascon Communication Technologies http://www.masconit.com ----- Original Message ----- From: manish kulkarni To: Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 5:06 AM Subject: [SIP] Doubt in a implementation of Sip stateless Proxy server hi, i am new user to Sip,and i have implemented a parser for a Sip message and it parses the Sip Message Line by Line.i want to implement a Stateless Proxy,i would like to know What methods my Stateless Proxy Should understand and What Responses it should generate.i went to RFC-2543 but it never says anything about the methods a stateless proxy should understand,it talks only about the methods understood by a Proxy Server,does that mean the method should be understood by a Statelss Proxy and a Stateful Proxy?.actually i am developing a Interfaces that will be used to write a stateless proxy,in that i have decided to give a interface for changing the Request-URI as the RFC-2543 says that the Proxy SHOULD change the request-URI,i am unable to procced in implementing the interface as it needs to DNS SRV lookup,can anyone tell me how far this interface would be relavent for a Stateless Proxy?.When a Proxy Receives a Request,it checks the Top most Via to see of the Request-URI is correct as seen by the proxy,now here i would like to know whether the proxy needs to keep a list of all the users it knows?.kindly clear my doubts.if they have already been discussed,sorry i might have missed in the mailing lists. Thank u. MANISH.R.K _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 24 12:54:52 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA17107 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 12:54:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5F2C44338; Thu, 24 May 2001 12:55:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mail.inetmail.att.net (mailhost1.inetmail.att.net [204.127.132.33]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BD2144337 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 12:54:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashok ([12.41.17.196]) by mail.inetmail.att.net (mtiagic01) with SMTP id <20010524165428gi128285jae>; Thu, 24 May 2001 16:54:29 +0000 Message-ID: <00c001c0e471$f060ffa0$c411290c@masconit.com> Reply-To: "Ranjit Avasarala" From: "Ranjit Avasarala" To: , "'manish kulkarni'" , References: <001a01c0e469$f3bf6680$cc4c5da6@cxo.dec.com> Subject: Re: [SIP] Doubt in a implementation of Sip stateless Proxy server MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 11:52:36 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi One possibility could be through use of timers i.e you wait for some event to take place within a certain time frame and if it does not happen you abort the transaction and restart it . or maintain a counter for maximum number of retransmissions and abort the transaction after you reached that limit. Any comments? Regards Ranjit Mascon Communication Technologies http://www.masconit.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Michel A. Maddux To: 'Ranjit Avasarala' ; 'manish kulkarni' ; Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 10:55 AM Subject: RE: [SIP] Doubt in a implementation of Sip stateless Proxy server At what point does a stateful proxy determine that a call is no longer valid/in use? Is this only via timer, sans BYE? thanks. /m. -----Original Message----- From: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com [mailto:sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com]On Behalf Of Ranjit Avasarala Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 8:57 AM To: manish kulkarni; SIP@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: Re: [SIP] Doubt in a implementation of Sip stateless Proxy server Hi Manish, The basic difference between stateless and stateful proxy is stateless proxy forgets about the SIP request once it has forwarded. But stateful prxies remember the request so that they can associate the request with the corresponding response and also take care of any retransmissions if required. Also Stateful proxies maintain transaction states i.e in which state a transaction is .... like WaitingForFinalResponse or WaitingForACK , etc. But both types of proxies are logical. A physical proxy can act as both stateful and stateless depending on the requirement. HTH. Regards Ranjit Mascon Communication Technologies http://www.masconit.com ----- Original Message ----- From: manish kulkarni To: Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 5:06 AM Subject: [SIP] Doubt in a implementation of Sip stateless Proxy server hi, i am new user to Sip,and i have implemented a parser for a Sip message and it parses the Sip Message Line by Line.i want to implement a Stateless Proxy,i would like to know What methods my Stateless Proxy Should understand and What Responses it should generate.i went to RFC-2543 but it never says anything about the methods a stateless proxy should understand,it talks only about the methods understood by a Proxy Server,does that mean the method should be understood by a Statelss Proxy and a Stateful Proxy?.actually i am developing a Interfaces that will be used to write a stateless proxy,in that i have decided to give a interface for changing the Request-URI as the RFC-2543 says that the Proxy SHOULD change the request-URI,i am unable to procced in implementing the interface as it needs to DNS SRV lookup,can anyone tell me how far this interface would be relavent for a Stateless Proxy?.When a Proxy Receives a Request,it checks the Top most Via to see of the Request-URI is correct as seen by the proxy,now here i would like to know whether the proxy needs to keep a list of all the users it knows?.kindly clear my doubts.if they have already been discussed,sorry i might have missed in the mailing lists. Thank u. MANISH.R.K _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 24 13:03:53 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA17259 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 13:03:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8B63443E1; Thu, 24 May 2001 13:04:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from cgpro.iccx.net (webmail.iccx.net [166.93.205.11]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40E8E44337 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 13:03:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [166.93.90.143] (HELO hasher99) by cgpro.iccx.net (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4.6) with ESMTP id 47099657; Thu, 24 May 2001 11:03:11 -0600 Reply-To: From: "Michel A. Maddux" To: "'Ranjit Avasarala'" , "'manish kulkarni'" , Subject: RE: [SIP] Doubt in a implementation of Sip stateless Proxy server Message-ID: <003101c0e473$6a61a510$cc4c5da6@cxo.dec.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <00c001c0e471$f060ffa0$c411290c@masconit.com> Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 11:03:10 -0600 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit oh; doest that mean that RFC2543bis doesn't specify the action to be taken for a statful proxy? This is left up to the implementor? Seems like a BCP might be in order... thanks. /m. -----Original Message----- From: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com [mailto:sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com]On Behalf Of Ranjit Avasarala Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 10:53 AM To: madflatpicker01@rmi.net; 'manish kulkarni'; SIP@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: Re: [SIP] Doubt in a implementation of Sip stateless Proxy server Hi One possibility could be through use of timers i.e you wait for some event to take place within a certain time frame and if it does not happen you abort the transaction and restart it . or maintain a counter for maximum number of retransmissions and abort the transaction after you reached that limit. Any comments? Regards Ranjit Mascon Communication Technologies http://www.masconit.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Michel A. Maddux To: 'Ranjit Avasarala' ; 'manish kulkarni' ; Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 10:55 AM Subject: RE: [SIP] Doubt in a implementation of Sip stateless Proxy server At what point does a stateful proxy determine that a call is no longer valid/in use? Is this only via timer, sans BYE? thanks. /m. -----Original Message----- From: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com [mailto:sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com]On Behalf Of Ranjit Avasarala Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 8:57 AM To: manish kulkarni; SIP@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: Re: [SIP] Doubt in a implementation of Sip stateless Proxy server Hi Manish, The basic difference between stateless and stateful proxy is stateless proxy forgets about the SIP request once it has forwarded. But stateful prxies remember the request so that they can associate the request with the corresponding response and also take care of any retransmissions if required. Also Stateful proxies maintain transaction states i.e in which state a transaction is .... like WaitingForFinalResponse or WaitingForACK , etc. But both types of proxies are logical. A physical proxy can act as both stateful and stateless depending on the requirement. HTH. Regards Ranjit Mascon Communication Technologies http://www.masconit.com ----- Original Message ----- From: manish kulkarni To: Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 5:06 AM Subject: [SIP] Doubt in a implementation of Sip stateless Proxy server hi, i am new user to Sip,and i have implemented a parser for a Sip message and it parses the Sip Message Line by Line.i want to implement a Stateless Proxy,i would like to know What methods my Stateless Proxy Should understand and What Responses it should generate.i went to RFC-2543 but it never says anything about the methods a stateless proxy should understand,it talks only about the methods understood by a Proxy Server,does that mean the method should be understood by a Statelss Proxy and a Stateful Proxy?.actually i am developing a Interfaces that will be used to write a stateless proxy,in that i have decided to give a interface for changing the Request-URI as the RFC-2543 says that the Proxy SHOULD change the request-URI,i am unable to procced in implementing the interface as it needs to DNS SRV lookup,can anyone tell me how far this interface would be relavent for a Stateless Proxy?.When a Proxy Receives a Request,it checks the Top most Via to see of the Request-URI is correct as seen by the proxy,now here i would like to know whether the proxy needs to keep a list of all the users it knows?.kindly clear my doubts.if they have already been discussed,sorry i might have missed in the mailing lists. Thank u. MANISH.R.K _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 24 13:07:42 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA17343 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 13:07:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D34A443FF; Thu, 24 May 2001 13:06:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mail.inetmail.att.net (mailhost1.inetmail.att.net [204.127.132.33]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B915E443FE for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 13:05:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashok ([12.41.17.196]) by mail.inetmail.att.net (mtiagic01) with SMTP id <20010524170557gi128283jie>; Thu, 24 May 2001 17:05:57 +0000 Message-ID: <00f501c0e473$887ded60$c411290c@masconit.com> Reply-To: "Ranjit Avasarala" From: "Ranjit Avasarala" To: , "'manish kulkarni'" , References: <003101c0e473$6a61a510$cc4c5da6@cxo.dec.com> Subject: Re: [SIP] Doubt in a implementation of Sip stateless Proxy server MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 12:04:01 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ya RFC only specifies what a proxy should do, but does not differentiate between stateful and stateless. Regards Ranjit Mascon Communication Technologies http://www.masconit.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Michel A. Maddux To: 'Ranjit Avasarala' ; 'manish kulkarni' ; Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 12:03 PM Subject: RE: [SIP] Doubt in a implementation of Sip stateless Proxy server oh; doest that mean that RFC2543bis doesn't specify the action to be taken for a statful proxy? This is left up to the implementor? Seems like a BCP might be in order... thanks. /m. -----Original Message----- From: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com [mailto:sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com]On Behalf Of Ranjit Avasarala Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 10:53 AM To: madflatpicker01@rmi.net; 'manish kulkarni'; SIP@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: Re: [SIP] Doubt in a implementation of Sip stateless Proxy server Hi One possibility could be through use of timers i.e you wait for some event to take place within a certain time frame and if it does not happen you abort the transaction and restart it . or maintain a counter for maximum number of retransmissions and abort the transaction after you reached that limit. Any comments? Regards Ranjit Mascon Communication Technologies http://www.masconit.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Michel A. Maddux To: 'Ranjit Avasarala' ; 'manish kulkarni' ; Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 10:55 AM Subject: RE: [SIP] Doubt in a implementation of Sip stateless Proxy server At what point does a stateful proxy determine that a call is no longer valid/in use? Is this only via timer, sans BYE? thanks. /m. -----Original Message----- From: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com [mailto:sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com]On Behalf Of Ranjit Avasarala Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 8:57 AM To: manish kulkarni; SIP@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: Re: [SIP] Doubt in a implementation of Sip stateless Proxy server Hi Manish, The basic difference between stateless and stateful proxy is stateless proxy forgets about the SIP request once it has forwarded. But stateful prxies remember the request so that they can associate the request with the corresponding response and also take care of any retransmissions if required. Also Stateful proxies maintain transaction states i.e in which state a transaction is .... like WaitingForFinalResponse or WaitingForACK , etc. But both types of proxies are logical. A physical proxy can act as both stateful and stateless depending on the requirement. HTH. Regards Ranjit Mascon Communication Technologies http://www.masconit.com ----- Original Message ----- From: manish kulkarni To: Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 5:06 AM Subject: [SIP] Doubt in a implementation of Sip stateless Proxy server hi, i am new user to Sip,and i have implemented a parser for a Sip message and it parses the Sip Message Line by Line.i want to implement a Stateless Proxy,i would like to know What methods my Stateless Proxy Should understand and What Responses it should generate.i went to RFC-2543 but it never says anything about the methods a stateless proxy should understand,it talks only about the methods understood by a Proxy Server,does that mean the method should be understood by a Statelss Proxy and a Stateful Proxy?.actually i am developing a Interfaces that will be used to write a stateless proxy,in that i have decided to give a interface for changing the Request-URI as the RFC-2543 says that the Proxy SHOULD change the request-URI,i am unable to procced in implementing the interface as it needs to DNS SRV lookup,can anyone tell me how far this interface would be relavent for a Stateless Proxy?.When a Proxy Receives a Request,it checks the Top most Via to see of the Request-URI is correct as seen by the proxy,now here i would like to know whether the proxy needs to keep a list of all the users it knows?.kindly clear my doubts.if they have already been discussed,sorry i might have missed in the mailing lists. Thank u. MANISH.R.K _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 24 14:00:52 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id OAA18178 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 14:00:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E35DE44338; Thu, 24 May 2001 14:01:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from broadsof.temp.veriohosting.com (broadsof.temp.veriohosting.com [161.58.239.68]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3A1644337 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 14:00:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tate ([64.243.180.244]) by broadsof.temp.veriohosting.com (8.11.2) id f4OI08970741; Thu, 24 May 2001 14:00:08 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: From: "Brett Tate" To: "'Steve Donovan'" , Subject: RE: [SIP] FW: SIP Session Timer NITS Message-ID: <006b01c0e47b$ba550be0$2b01a8c0@broadsoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 In-Reply-To: <9BF66EBF6BEFD942915B4D4D45C051F31803ED@DYN-TX-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com> Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 14:02:41 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My understanding is that the paragraph was explicitly added for a UAC that didn't add a From tag and couldn't distinguish an invite from re-invite. This is no longer a possibility since email http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/2001q2/006912.html mentions the usage of tags is now mandatory for implementers of the timer draft. Thus I agree that the text about adding Require timer and Session-Expires immediate can be removed. I agree that a 481 is the best response when a UAS chooses not to allow a dropped call-leg's session to be revived. > -----Original Message----- > From: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com > [mailto:sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com]On Behalf Of Steve Donovan > Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 10:15 AM > To: 'sip@lists.bell-labs.com' > Subject: [SIP] FW: SIP Session Timer NITS > > > I am bringing a proposal from an off line discussion to the > list, as it > proposes a change to the existing session timer specification. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonathan Rosenberg > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 11:13 PM > To: Steve Donovan; 'Sean Olson (EUS)' > Subject: RE: SIP Session Timer NITS > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Steve Donovan > > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 3:07 PM > > To: 'Sean Olson (EUS)'; Steve Donovan; Jonathan Rosenberg > > Subject: RE: SIP Session Timer NITS > > > > > > > > 3. If a UAS crashes and reboots, then receives a re-INVITE > > refresh in which the To: has a tag parameter (informing > > the UAS that this was an ongoing session before the crash), > > shouldn't it be a MUST that the UAS insert a Session-Expires: 0 > > and a Require: timer header? (Right now it is a SHOULD; first > > paragraph on page 9) > > > > SRD> Jonathan, can you comment on this. I don't see a reason > > it shouldn't be a MUST, but this was your wording. Was there > > something specific you were thinking about? > > No; MUST would be appropriate. However, I'm not sure this bit > is needed. > > The reason has to do with a decision we made at IETF 49. That > decision was > to say that if a mid-call request generates a 481, the UAC > considers the > call terminated. In that case, if a UAS gets a session timer > refresh with a > tag, and doesn't want to reconstitute the call, it can just > generate a 481 > and that terminates the call. The bit on using session timer > is an alternate > way to do it. I don't like it as much since it requires the > session timer > extension to provide a function which really belongs (and now > is) in the > baseline spec). > > So, perhaps we should remove that text altogether... > > --- > Steven R. Donovan > Architect dynamicsoft > > mailto:sdonovan@dynamicsoft.com 5100 Tennyson Parkway > sip:sdonovan@sip.dynamicsoft.com Plano, Texas 75025 > tel:+1-972-473-5469 http://www.dynamicsoft.com > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 24 14:54:53 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id OAA19006 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 14:54:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 627FE443E1; Thu, 24 May 2001 14:55:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 509C144337 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 14:54:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id OAA22351; Thu, 24 May 2001 14:57:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 24 May 2001 14:53:56 -0400 Message-ID: <9BF66EBF6BEFD942915B4D4D45C051F31803F0@DYN-TX-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com> From: Steve Donovan To: "'Ranjit Avasarala'" , madflatpicker01@rmi.net, "'manish kulkarni'" , SIP@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] Doubt in a implementation of Sip stateless Proxy server MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 14:53:51 -0400 The RFC defines stateless and TRANSACTION stateful proxies. What you are talking about is a call stateful proxy, or a proxy that maintains states across transactions. The session timer draft defines a mechanism for a call stateful proxy to determine the state of a call between transactions. For more information, see the following entry in the SIP FAQ: http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~hgs/sip/faq.cgi?_highlightWords=call%20stateful% 20proxy&file=36 Steve > -----Original Message----- > From: Ranjit Avasarala [mailto:ranjitka@email.masconit.com] > Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 12:04 PM > To: madflatpicker01@rmi.net; 'manish kulkarni'; > SIP@lists.bell-labs.com > Subject: Re: [SIP] Doubt in a implementation of Sip stateless Proxy > server > > > ya RFC only specifies what a proxy should do, but does not > differentiate > between stateful and stateless. > > Regards > Ranjit > Mascon Communication Technologies > http://www.masconit.com > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michel A. Maddux > To: 'Ranjit Avasarala' ; 'manish > kulkarni' > ; > Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 12:03 PM > Subject: RE: [SIP] Doubt in a implementation of Sip stateless > Proxy server > > > oh; doest that mean that RFC2543bis doesn't specify the > action to be taken > for a statful proxy? This is left up to the implementor? > Seems like a BCP > might be in order... thanks. /m. > > -----Original Message----- > From: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com > [mailto:sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com]On Behalf Of Ranjit Avasarala > Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 10:53 AM > To: madflatpicker01@rmi.net; 'manish kulkarni'; > SIP@lists.bell-labs.com > Subject: Re: [SIP] Doubt in a implementation of Sip stateless Proxy > server > > > Hi > One possibility could be through use of timers i.e you > wait for some > event to take place within a certain time frame and if it > does not happen you abort the transaction and restart it . > > or maintain a counter for maximum number of retransmissions > and abort the > transaction after you reached that limit. > > Any comments? > > Regards > Ranjit > Mascon Communication Technologies > http://www.masconit.com > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michel A. Maddux > To: 'Ranjit Avasarala' ; 'manish > kulkarni' > ; > Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 10:55 AM > Subject: RE: [SIP] Doubt in a implementation of Sip stateless > Proxy server > > > At what point does a stateful proxy determine that a call is no longer > valid/in use? Is this only via timer, sans BYE? thanks. /m. > > -----Original Message----- > From: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com > [mailto:sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com]On Behalf Of Ranjit Avasarala > Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 8:57 AM > To: manish kulkarni; SIP@lists.bell-labs.com > Subject: Re: [SIP] Doubt in a implementation of Sip stateless Proxy > server > > > Hi Manish, > > The basic difference between stateless and stateful proxy > is stateless > proxy forgets about the SIP request once it has forwarded. > But stateful prxies remember the request so that they can > associate the > request with the corresponding response and also take care > of any retransmissions if required. Also Stateful proxies maintain > transaction states i.e in which state a transaction is .... > > like WaitingForFinalResponse or WaitingForACK , etc. > > But both types of proxies are logical. A physical proxy can > act as both > stateful and stateless depending on the requirement. > > HTH. > > Regards > Ranjit > Mascon Communication Technologies > http://www.masconit.com > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: manish kulkarni > To: > Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 5:06 AM > Subject: [SIP] Doubt in a implementation of Sip stateless Proxy server > > > hi, > i am new user to Sip,and i have implemented a parser for a > Sip message and > it parses the Sip Message Line by Line.i want to implement a Stateless > Proxy,i would like to know What methods my Stateless Proxy > Should understand > and What Responses it should generate.i went to RFC-2543 but > it never says > anything about the methods a stateless proxy should > understand,it talks only > about the methods understood by a Proxy Server,does that mean > the method > should be understood by a Statelss Proxy and a Stateful > Proxy?.actually i am > developing a Interfaces that will be used to write a > stateless proxy,in that > i have decided to give a interface for changing the Request-URI as the > RFC-2543 says that the Proxy SHOULD change the request-URI,i > am unable to > procced in implementing the interface as it needs to DNS SRV > lookup,can > anyone tell me how far this interface would be relavent for a > Stateless > Proxy?.When a Proxy Receives a Request,it checks the Top most > Via to see of > the Request-URI is correct as seen by the proxy,now here i > would like to > know whether the proxy needs to keep a list of all the users it > knows?.kindly clear my doubts.if they have already been > discussed,sorry i > might have missed in the mailing lists. > Thank u. > > MANISH.R.K > ______________________________________________________________ > ___________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 25 09:12:53 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA17279 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 09:12:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B05A844338; Fri, 25 May 2001 09:13:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from cs.columbia.edu (cs.columbia.edu [128.59.16.20]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2D4744337 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 12:01:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from disco.cs.columbia.edu (disco.cs.columbia.edu [128.59.16.7]) by cs.columbia.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA07479 for ; Thu, 24 May 2001 12:01:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from petkos@localhost) by disco.cs.columbia.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA05589 for sip@lists.bell-labs.com; Thu, 24 May 2001 12:01:36 -0400 (EDT) From: "Petri K. Koskelainen" Message-Id: <200105241601.MAA05589@disco.cs.columbia.edu> To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [SIP] Re: Comments on draft-ietf-sip-cc-transfer-04 (out-of-band subs) Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 12:01:36 -0400 (EDT) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, A comment about draft-ietf-sip-cc-transfer-04: In page 8: ", the UA receiving the REFER SHOULD notify the agent sending the refer using the NOTIFY mechanism.." I can imagine many situations (also outside of CC draft) in which the client in some cases wants to be notified and in some cases does not want to be notified. Is there any way to define this optionality in REFER ? (other than new header) I was thinking about caller prefs mechanism but it does not seem to allow that possibility either. I'd prefer that UAC sending REFER (or other non-SUBSCRIBE) method does not have to be automatically prepared to receive NOTIFYs (of course there is same Call-ID required but it is still inconvenient in some cases). Instead, the willingness to receive NOTIFY would be defined in the non-SUBSCRIBE method itself (like in REFER). Also, minor issue is that this is yet-another-extra-SIP-request/response which should be avoided in certain environments (e.g. wireless user in some cases may want to avoid unnecessary notifications). This seems to be more general SIP issue, not limited to CC draft.. -- Petri _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 25 09:14:40 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA17314 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 09:14:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01CA2443A0; Fri, 25 May 2001 09:13:16 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from hotmail.com (f215.law15.hotmail.com [64.4.23.215]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C643644337 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 06:54:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 25 May 2001 03:54:23 -0700 Received: from 203.199.199.66 by lw15fd.law15.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 25 May 2001 10:54:23 GMT X-Originating-IP: [203.199.199.66] From: "manish kulkarni" To: SIP@lists.bell-labs.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 May 2001 10:54:23.0703 (UTC) FILETIME=[0F175E70:01C0E509] Subject: [SIP] Hi Again,Doubt in Via Header Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 10:54:23 -0000 hi, it was nice to see that someone was helping me to complete my work.i have a doubt in the Via Header.Now in one of the mails in mailing list archive it says that the Matching of Via Header means matching the Transport,Branch,Protocol Name(SIP),Version(2.0) and HostName.When u match a Hostname,if the hostname is normal name as in Via then it should me matched case-insensitivly,if the hostname is IP Address and the HostName in the Via Field is a String,how should the matching be done?.When Request is Received How does one Check that it is mulicast or not?.one more thing,how does a Proxy determine that a Request-URI of the request it has got is Correct,as seen by the proxy,does the Proxy maintain a List of Request-URI or what?. Manish.R.K _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 25 09:55:52 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA18181 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 09:55:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 738AA443C0; Fri, 25 May 2001 09:56:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAC6544398 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 09:55:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id JAA00246; Fri, 25 May 2001 09:59:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Fri, 25 May 2001 09:55:41 -0400 Message-ID: <9BF66EBF6BEFD942915B4D4D45C051F314A83B@DYN-TX-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com> From: Robert Sparks To: "'Petri K. Koskelainen'" , sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] Re: Comments on draft-ietf-sip-cc-transfer-04 (out-of-b and subs) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 09:55:35 -0400 There was quite a bit of discussion on this topic on the list and at the meetings. In summary, the implicit subscribe model was chosen at the SHOULD strength instead of MUST for the very reasons you listed. If you have an app where you have a very good reason to not send the NOTIFY and you've done the work to ensure you're not breaking any features that rely on it by accident, you aren't required to send it. RjS > -----Original Message----- > From: Petri K. Koskelainen [mailto:petkos@cs.columbia.edu] > Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 11:02 AM > To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com > Subject: [SIP] Re: Comments on draft-ietf-sip-cc-transfer-04 > (out-of-band subs) > > > Hi, > > A comment about draft-ietf-sip-cc-transfer-04: > > In page 8: > ", the UA receiving the REFER SHOULD notify the agent sending > the refer using the NOTIFY mechanism.." > > I can imagine many situations (also outside of CC draft) in > which the client > in some cases wants to be notified and in some cases does not > want to be > notified. > > Is there any way to define this optionality in REFER ? > (other than new header) > > I was thinking about caller prefs mechanism but it does not > seem to allow > that possibility either. > > I'd prefer that UAC sending REFER (or other non-SUBSCRIBE) > method does > not have to be automatically prepared to receive NOTIFYs (of > course there > is same Call-ID required but it is still inconvenient in some cases). > Instead, the willingness to receive NOTIFY would be defined in > the non-SUBSCRIBE method itself (like in REFER). > > Also, minor issue is that this is > yet-another-extra-SIP-request/response > which should be avoided in certain environments (e.g. > wireless user in > some cases may want to avoid unnecessary notifications). > > > This seems to be more general SIP issue, not limited to CC draft.. > > > -- > Petri > > > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 25 10:22:51 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA18722 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 10:22:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA74B443C8; Fri, 25 May 2001 10:23:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@share.research.bell-labs.com Received: from crufty.research.bell-labs.com (crufty.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.49]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 4BBD644398 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 10:22:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([135.104.27.211]) by crufty; Fri May 25 10:19:02 EDT 2001 Received: by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) id E679744380; Fri, 25 May 2001 10:08:31 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from bz0017exch001p.wins.lucent.com (unknown [135.253.94.14]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D64124437D for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 10:08:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by BZ0017EXCH001P with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Fri, 25 May 2001 11:08:28 -0300 Message-ID: <0F103142B6F6D311A80E0008C71BAC295D2ADD@BZ3002EXCH001U> From: "Boaventura, Alberto Magno Silveira (Alberto)" To: "'sip@lists.bell-labs.com'" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [SIP] FW: SUS and RES question Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 11:08:26 -0300 Hello: Could you help me on the questions below? Thanks, Alberto. -----Original Message----- From: Boaventura, Alberto Magno Silveira (Alberto) Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 11:05 AM To: Isc_Sipeg (E-mail) Subject: SUS and RES question Greetings All, Regarding on an ISUP middle call messages (such as SUS/RES/INF/INR), how are they interworked with SIP-T? Are they encapsulated in INFO message body? Thanks for any return, Alberto. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 25 10:31:52 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA18889 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 10:31:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D38684441B; Fri, 25 May 2001 10:32:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from albatross-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se (albatross-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [194.237.142.116]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E347E44415 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 10:31:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fogerty.lmf.ericsson.se (fogerty.lmf.ericsson.se [131.160.11.6]) by albatross.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.11.0/8.11.0/WIREfire-1.3) with ESMTP id f4PEV7N00207; Fri, 25 May 2001 16:31:07 +0200 (MEST) Received: from lmf.ericsson.se (lmf21339pc.lmf.ericsson.se [131.160.30.161]) by fogerty.lmf.ericsson.se (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f4PEV5J01790; Fri, 25 May 2001 17:31:05 +0300 (EET DST) Message-ID: <3B0E6CA6.7D51683C@lmf.ericsson.se> From: Christer Holmberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Boaventura, Alberto Magno Silveira (Alberto)" Cc: "'sip@lists.bell-labs.com'" Subject: Re: [SIP] FW: SUS and RES question References: <0F103142B6F6D311A80E0008C71BAC295D2ADD@BZ3002EXCH001U> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------ADBB128877A31B626E23111C" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 17:31:02 +0300 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------ADBB128877A31B626E23111C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, The answer is Yes. Regards, Christer Holmberg Ericsson Finland "Boaventura, Alberto Magno Silveira (Alberto)" wrote: > > Hello: > > Could you help me on the questions below? > > Thanks, > Alberto. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Boaventura, Alberto Magno Silveira (Alberto) > Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 11:05 AM > To: Isc_Sipeg (E-mail) > Subject: SUS and RES question > > Greetings All, > > Regarding on an ISUP middle call messages (such as SUS/RES/INF/INR), how are > they interworked with SIP-T? Are they encapsulated in INFO message body? > > Thanks for any return, > Alberto. > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. --------------ADBB128877A31B626E23111C Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="christer.holmberg.vcf" Content-Description: Card for Christer Holmberg Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="christer.holmberg.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit begin:vcard n:Holmberg;Christer tel;cell:+358-40-5604412 tel;work:+358-9-2992943 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:Ericsson;IP Multimedia / Advanced Signalling Research Laboratory adr:;;;;;; version:2.1 email;internet:christer.holmberg@lmf.ericsson.se title:System Designer fn:Christer Holmberg end:vcard --------------ADBB128877A31B626E23111C-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 25 10:56:51 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA19159 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 10:56:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2E6F443C4; Fri, 25 May 2001 10:57:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from ss8mail1.ss8ott (mail.ss8.ca [209.87.228.147]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCC7A44389 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 09:29:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eberpc (EBER_PC [192.168.1.56]) by ss8mail1.ss8ott with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id K0L38TKD; Fri, 25 May 2001 09:30:06 -0400 From: "Eber Mello" To: "Sip@Lists. Bell-Labs. Com" Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Subject: [SIP] Uniqueness of call-id Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 09:33:29 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Can someone help me understand this apparent contradition on the SIP bis spec: How can it be possible for "two instances of a user sharing a SIP address ... make call invitations with the same Call-ID" (section 6.26) if "The callid MUST be a globally unique identifier and MUSTNOT be reused for later calls" (section 6.13)? [apart from the use of call-id in the REFER method, where the transferee uses the same call-id of the transferor for the new call to the transfer-target]. Thanks, Eber Mello SS8 Networks Suite 500 495 March Road Kanata, Ontario K2K 3G1 _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 25 10:59:36 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA19189 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 10:59:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9903443E7; Fri, 25 May 2001 10:57:17 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from cs.columbia.edu (cs.columbia.edu [128.59.16.20]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E3B9443A0 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 10:52:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from disco.cs.columbia.edu (disco.cs.columbia.edu [128.59.16.7]) by cs.columbia.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA05803; Fri, 25 May 2001 10:52:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from petkos@localhost) by disco.cs.columbia.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA18281; Fri, 25 May 2001 10:52:29 -0400 (EDT) From: "Petri K. Koskelainen" Message-Id: <200105251452.KAA18281@disco.cs.columbia.edu> Subject: Re: [SIP] Re: Comments on draft-ietf-sip-cc-transfer-04 (out-of-b To: rsparks@dynamicsoft.com (Robert Sparks) Cc: petkos@cs.columbia.edu ('Petri K. Koskelainen'), sip@lists.bell-labs.com In-Reply-To: <9BF66EBF6BEFD942915B4D4D45C051F314A83B@DYN-TX-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com> from "Robert Sparks" at May 25, 2001 09:55:35 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 10:52:29 -0400 (EDT) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, It is still a MUST requirement for the client: (in page 8) "..the agent that issued the REFER MUST be prepared to receive a NOTIFY.." There is no way to prevent NOTIFYs (in the case client does not want it). Client may just hope that application does not send it. This isn't major problem, but it would be nice to let the originating UAC (rather than the server processing REFER) to decide whether NOTIFY is needed. For example, new header for non-SUBSCRIBE methods like notify: yes|no. -- Petri > > There was quite a bit of discussion on this topic on the > list and at the meetings. In summary, the implicit subscribe > model was chosen at the SHOULD strength instead of MUST for > the very reasons you listed. > > If you have an app where you have a very good reason to > not send the NOTIFY and you've done the work to ensure you're > not breaking any features that rely on it by accident, you aren't > required to send it. > > RjS > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Petri K. Koskelainen [mailto:petkos@cs.columbia.edu] > > Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2001 11:02 AM > > To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com > > Subject: [SIP] Re: Comments on draft-ietf-sip-cc-transfer-04 > > (out-of-band subs) > > > > > > Hi, > > > > A comment about draft-ietf-sip-cc-transfer-04: > > > > In page 8: > > ", the UA receiving the REFER SHOULD notify the agent sending > > the refer using the NOTIFY mechanism.." > > > > I can imagine many situations (also outside of CC draft) in > > which the client > > in some cases wants to be notified and in some cases does not > > want to be > > notified. > > > > Is there any way to define this optionality in REFER ? > > (other than new header) > > > > I was thinking about caller prefs mechanism but it does not > > seem to allow > > that possibility either. > > > > I'd prefer that UAC sending REFER (or other non-SUBSCRIBE) > > method does > > not have to be automatically prepared to receive NOTIFYs (of > > course there > > is same Call-ID required but it is still inconvenient in some cases). > > Instead, the willingness to receive NOTIFY would be defined in > > the non-SUBSCRIBE method itself (like in REFER). > > > > Also, minor issue is that this is > > yet-another-extra-SIP-request/response > > which should be avoided in certain environments (e.g. > > wireless user in > > some cases may want to avoid unnecessary notifications). > > > > > > This seems to be more general SIP issue, not limited to CC draft.. > > > > > > -- > > Petri > > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 25 11:51:50 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA19933 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 11:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E929C443AF; Fri, 25 May 2001 11:52:04 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC8C34439D for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 11:51:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id LAA02242 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 11:55:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Fri, 25 May 2001 11:51:22 -0400 Message-ID: From: Rakesh Shah To: "SIPWG Mailing List (E-mail)" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [SIP] Last Call Calendar Issues Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 11:51:16 -0400 I've seen some messages on this and I apologize for not responding sooner. I am severely behind in updating information and getting drafts in and out of Last Call. I won't bore you with why. I am shooting to catch up by June 8th. If anyone has any questions, please forward them to me. Regards, Rakesh _________________________ Mr. Rakesh C. Shah Project Coordinator dynamicsoft Inc. 72 Eagle Rock Avenue 1st Floor East Hanover, N.J. 07936 (973) 952-5066 direct (201) 214-6084 cell (973) 952-5000 main (973) 952-5050 fax rshah@dynamicsoft.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 25 15:04:53 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id PAA23504 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 15:04:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9BB944409; Fri, 25 May 2001 15:05:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from cs.columbia.edu (cs.columbia.edu [128.59.16.20]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88D5144406 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 15:04:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from muni.cs.columbia.edu (muni.cs.columbia.edu [128.59.19.192]) by cs.columbia.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA22648 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 15:04:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (xiaotaow@localhost) by muni.cs.columbia.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA06341 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 15:04:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Xiaotao Wu To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [SIP] A question about the Music on Hold/Call Park in service examples draft Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 15:04:51 -0400 (EDT) For the Music on Hold/Call Park in the SIP service examples draft, it requires the User A (can be considered as the customer's SIP user agent) to understand the Replaces header as in the draft-biggs-sip-replaces-00.txt. Why not just simply let the user B send INVITE to the Music server with the customer's (user A) UA's RTP info and re-INVITE customer's UA with Music server's RTP info to perform this service. The call flow is as the following figure. A B C | | | +-----INVITE------->+ | | | | +------200----------+ | | | | +------ACK----------+ | | | | | User B park call | | | | | +---INVITE with---->+ | | A's SDP | | +<-----200 ---------+ | | | +<--re-INVITE with--+ | | C's SDP | | +-----200---------->+ | | | | +<----ACK-----------+ | | +------ACK--------->+ | |(If user B gets BYE before | | the user B picks up the call | | the user B will BYE to music server) | | | | User B picks up | | | | | +----- BYE--------->+ | | | | +<-----200----------+ | | | +<---re-INVITE with-+ | | B's SDP | | +------200--------->+ | | | | +<-----ACK----------+ | | | | +------- BYE ------>+ | | | | +<----- 200 --------+ | The user B works like a B2BUA. Since it's the user B initiate the service, it's reasonable to put the complexity in the user B's user agent instead of adding complexity to user A (the customer)'s user agent. And by this way, there is no need to use REFER and NOTIFY. -Xiaotao ========================================================= Name : Xiaotao Wu Email : xiaotaow@cs.columbia.edu, xw71@columbia.edu URL : http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~xiaotaow Phone : (212)939-7087, (212)939-7133, Fax: (801)751-0217 SIP : sip:xiaotaow@erlang.cs.columbia.edu Office: Room 623, Schapiro (CEPSR), West 120th ========================================================= _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 25 17:19:51 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id RAA25250 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 17:19:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CD5344338; Fri, 25 May 2001 17:20:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com [161.44.11.97]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00C3E44337 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 17:19:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dingdong.cisco.com (dingdong.cisco.com [64.102.17.16]) by rtp-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id f4PLHrX09336 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 17:17:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cisco.com (rtp-xdm1.cisco.com [64.102.17.80]) by dingdong.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with ESMTP id AHI02785 (AUTH sudiptom); Fri, 25 May 2001 17:19:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B0ECC4F.89447543@cisco.com> From: Sudipto Mukherjee Organization: Cisco X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51C-CISCOENG [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [SIP] ReTransmission interval Question - Reliable Provisonal Responses Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 17:19:11 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, In section 7, Retransmit Interval Computation of Reliability of Provisional Responses in SIP draft ( http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-100rel-03.txt), It is described that non-100 provisionals be retransmitted with exponential backoff with a max retransmit interval of 32 secs. There is reference to behaviour of INVITE responses as described in RFC2543. While the BIS-02 draft for SIP describes that retransmit intervals for INVITE final responses starts at T1 (500msecs) and caps at T2 (4 secs) interval. Reliable Provisional Responses draft contradicts the BIS-02 requirements. Will the Reliability of Provisional Responses draft be updated to match up with requirements of the BIS-02 or BIS-03 drafts ? Thanks -- Sudipto --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sudipto Mukherjee Cisco Systems, Inc sudiptom@cisco.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 25 17:36:52 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id RAA25556 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 17:36:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D18CA4439D; Fri, 25 May 2001 17:37:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from dgesmtp02.wcom.com (dgesmtp02.wcom.com [199.249.16.17]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEAE344348 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 17:36:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pmismtp01.wcomnet.com ([166.38.62.36]) by firewall.mcit.com (PMDF V5.2-33 #42261) with ESMTP id <0GDW00EFGUPDVN@firewall.mcit.com> for sip@lists.bell-labs.com; Fri, 25 May 2001 21:36:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pmismtp01.wcomnet.com by pmismtp01.wcomnet.com (PMDF V5.2-33 #42258) with SMTP id <0GDW00C01UP9CK@pmismtp01.wcomnet.com>; Fri, 25 May 2001 21:36:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wcom.com ([166.44.58.91]) by pmismtp01.wcomnet.com (PMDF V5.2-33 #42258) with ESMTP id <0GDW002N9UP3PF@pmismtp01.wcomnet.com>; Fri, 25 May 2001 21:36:41 +0000 (GMT) From: Alan Johnston Subject: Re: [SIP] A question about the Music on Hold/Call Park in service examplesdraft To: Xiaotao Wu Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Message-id: <3B0ECF82.2B8E8444@wcom.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 16:32:50 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xiaotao, Your call flow will work - it is one way to implement this service. It does, however, require B to keep state on the session as long as the call is parked. If B disappears or fails, the call will not be able to be picked up. Many services can be implemented using either SIP primitives such as REFER or using B2BUA approaches. I agree that this does simplify requirements for A, but I believe that REFER and Replaces will be supported by most UAs. Thanks, Alan Johnston WorldCom sip:alan.johnston@siptest.wcom.com Xiaotao Wu wrote: > For the Music on Hold/Call Park in the SIP service examples draft, > it requires the User A (can be considered as the customer's SIP user > agent) to understand the Replaces header as in the > draft-biggs-sip-replaces-00.txt. > > Why not just simply let the user B send INVITE to the Music server with > the customer's (user A) UA's RTP info and re-INVITE customer's UA with > Music server's RTP info to perform this service. The call flow is as the > following figure. > > A B C > > | | | > +-----INVITE------->+ | > | | | > +------200----------+ | > | | | > +------ACK----------+ | > | | | > | User B park call | > | | | > | +---INVITE with---->+ > | | A's SDP | > | +<-----200 ---------+ > | | | > +<--re-INVITE with--+ | > | C's SDP | | > +-----200---------->+ | > | | | > +<----ACK-----------+ | > | +------ACK--------->+ > | |(If user B gets BYE before > | | the user B picks up the call > | | the user B will BYE to music server) > | | | > | User B picks up | > | | | > | +----- BYE--------->+ > | | | > | +<-----200----------+ > | | | > +<---re-INVITE with-+ | > | B's SDP | | > +------200--------->+ | > | | | > +<-----ACK----------+ | > | | | > +------- BYE ------>+ | > | | | > +<----- 200 --------+ | > > The user B works like a B2BUA. Since it's the user B initiate the service, > it's reasonable to put the complexity in the user B's user agent instead > of adding complexity to user A (the customer)'s user agent. > > And by this way, there is no need to use REFER and NOTIFY. > > -Xiaotao > > ========================================================= > Name : Xiaotao Wu > Email : xiaotaow@cs.columbia.edu, xw71@columbia.edu > URL : http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~xiaotaow > Phone : (212)939-7087, (212)939-7133, Fax: (801)751-0217 > SIP : sip:xiaotaow@erlang.cs.columbia.edu > Office: Room 623, Schapiro (CEPSR), West 120th > ========================================================= > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 25 18:45:51 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id SAA26608 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 18:45:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 341E844338; Fri, 25 May 2001 18:46:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from albatross-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se (albatross-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [194.237.142.116]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60EFC44337 for ; Fri, 25 May 2001 18:45:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailserver1.ericsson.se (mailserver1.ericsson.se [136.225.152.91]) by albatross.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.11.0/8.11.0/WIREfire-1.3) with ESMTP id f4PMjKN05830; Sat, 26 May 2001 00:45:20 +0200 (MEST) Received: from lmf.ericsson.se (racom-sd-100.sd.us.am.ericsson.se [142.133.141.101]) by mailserver1.ericsson.se (8.9.3/8.9.3/eri-1.0) with ESMTP id AAA13224; Sat, 26 May 2001 00:45:36 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <3B0EE1B0.BE220BB3@lmf.ericsson.se> From: Gonzalo Camarillo Organization: Oy L M Ericsson Ab X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Boaventura, Alberto Magno Silveira (Alberto)" Cc: "'sip@lists.bell-labs.com'" Subject: Re: [SIP] FW: SUS and RES question References: <0F103142B6F6D311A80E0008C71BAC295D2ADD@BZ3002EXCH001U> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 01:50:24 +0300 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, You can read http://search.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-isup-01.txt for a complete answer. SUS/RES are sent inside a re-INVITE. INF/INR inside INFO. Regards, Gonzalo "Boaventura, Alberto Magno Silveira (Alberto)" wrote: > > Hello: > > Could you help me on the questions below? > > Thanks, > Alberto. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Boaventura, Alberto Magno Silveira (Alberto) > Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 11:05 AM > To: Isc_Sipeg (E-mail) > Subject: SUS and RES question > > Greetings All, > > Regarding on an ISUP middle call messages (such as SUS/RES/INF/INR), how are > they interworked with SIP-T? Are they encapsulated in INFO message body? > > Thanks for any return, > Alberto. > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. -- Gonzalo Camarillo Phone : +1 212 939 71 71 Columbia University Mobile: +358 40 702 35 35 472 Computer Science Building Fax : +358 9 299 30 52 1214 Amsterdam Ave., Mail Code 0401 http://www.hut.fi/~gonzalo New York, NY 10027 USA Gonzalo.Camarillo@ericsson.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Mon May 28 09:22:51 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA04420 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 09:22:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E63A44340; Mon, 28 May 2001 09:23:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from cisco.com (europe.cisco.com [144.254.52.73]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3AB54433A for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 09:22:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DEA-W2K.cisco.com (par-ilm-dhcp1-vl132-16.cisco.com [144.254.57.211]) by cisco.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA16811; Mon, 28 May 2001 15:21:36 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010528150504.0178bc28@europe.cisco.com> X-Sender: dea@europe.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 To: Jon.Peterson@Level3.com From: David Auerbach Subject: RE: [SIP] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-isup-01.txt Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com In-Reply-To: <6384220893BCD411BDFE0008C791B79CA3E5A7@N0228IDC1.oss.level 3.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 15:21:52 +0200 One final comment ... I am not referring to COT on current leg (which is only important to the two ends of the TDM connection). Clearly this has no bearing on SIP-T. I am referring to the COT on previous indication which is, in effect, an end to end indication (or at least beyond the scope of the two ends of a TDM connection.) The downstream switches (that may be on the other side of the SIP network) normally DO care about the COT on previous setting in the IAM and DO expect to set a COT message even if that switch was not involved in a COT test. This is why I thought it merited special attention. David At 09:49 23/05/2001 -0600, Jon.Peterson@Level3.com wrote: >This sort of scenario is also addressed in the SIP-T Contexts and >Architectures draft: > >http://search.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-vemuri-sip-t-context-02.txt > >... in section 8 note number 4, so at the very least this is a known >problem. As Adam noted, this is only one of a whole class of such problems. >While your suggestions could potentially work, I think that in all instances >this is probably something that a terminating gateway should address by >ignoring certain aspects of the received encapsulated ISUP if they are >determined to be out of date or inappropriate. I don't think that sending >the COT or what have you is necessary - the terminating gateway has no use >for this information; bug I agree with you that the originating gateway >should withhold the INVITE in this case until it receives a COT - in fact, >this is specified explicitly in draft-ietf-sip-isup-01 section 10.3. > >I envision that there will be a new SIP-T draft at some point that will >address several types of potential ISUP modification in greater detail, >including this sort of case. > >Jon Peterson >Level(3) Communications > >-----Original Message----- >From: David Auerbach [mailto:dea@cisco.com] >Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 9:00 AM >To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com >Subject: [SIP] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-isup-01.txt > > >In looking at this draft and the SIP-T draft : > >I think it would be good for the draft(s) to address procedures for the >case when an IAM is received >at the ingress MGC with a COT on Previous circuit indication in the nature >of call indicators. If the >COT on previous indication is carried by the INVITE in the embedded ISUP to >the egress MGC and >sent in a subsequent IAM, either > > 1. a procedure should be defined for delivering the eventual COT >message >through the SIP > network (INFO?) > >or > > 2. the ingress MGC must break the COT on previous chain and not >send an >INVITE > with the embedded IAM indicating COT on previous. In this case, it >the >ingress > MGC would have to hold up the INVITE until the COT message is >received. > >Regards, > >David Auerbach >EMEA Technology Center >Cisco Systems Europe > > >_______________________________________________ >This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. >The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, >and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. >To subscribe to it, send mail to >sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Mon May 28 11:53:49 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA05527 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 11:53:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96C6C44339; Mon, 28 May 2001 11:54:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from gorilla.mchh.siemens.de (gorilla.mchh.siemens.de [194.138.158.18]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E964844339 for ; Mon, 28 May 2001 11:53:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from blues.mchh.siemens.de (mail2.mchh.siemens.de [194.138.158.227]) by gorilla.mchh.siemens.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA11486; Mon, 28 May 2001 17:53:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from mchh246e.demchh201e.icn.siemens.de ([139.21.200.56]) by blues.mchh.siemens.de (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA24492; Mon, 28 May 2001 17:53:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by MCHH246E with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Mon, 28 May 2001 17:53:02 +0200 Message-ID: From: Lueken Joachim To: "'David Auerbach'" Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-isup-01.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 17:53:00 +0200 Hi David, In my opinion the ingress VoIP-GW should wait for a successful continuity indication for the cases "cot required" and "cot performed on previous circuit" before an INVITE is sent on the SIP side. In this case a distinction between interworking to SIP or SIP-T, respectively, is not necessary. As a consequence it should not happen that SIP is envolved at all and that values different from "cot not required" can be reveived at the egress VoIP-GW in the encapsulated IAM. Joachim Siemens AG > -----Original Message----- > From: David Auerbach [SMTP:dea@cisco.com] > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 3:22 PM > To: Jon.Peterson@Level3.com > Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com > Subject: RE: [SIP] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-isup-01.txt > > One final comment ... > > I am not referring to COT on current leg (which is only important to the > two ends of the > TDM connection). Clearly this has no bearing on SIP-T. > > I am referring to the COT on previous indication which is, in effect, an > end to end indication > (or at least beyond the scope of the two ends of a TDM connection.) The > downstream switches (that may be on the other side of the SIP network) > normally DO > care about the COT on previous setting in the IAM and DO expect to set a COT > message even if that switch was not involved in a COT test. > > This is why I thought it merited special attention. > > David > > At 09:49 23/05/2001 -0600, Jon.Peterson@Level3.com wrote: > >This sort of scenario is also addressed in the SIP-T Contexts and > >Architectures draft: > > > >http://search.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-vemuri-sip-t-context-02.txt > > > >... in section 8 note number 4, so at the very least this is a known > >problem. As Adam noted, this is only one of a whole class of such problems. > >While your suggestions could potentially work, I think that in all instances > >this is probably something that a terminating gateway should address by > >ignoring certain aspects of the received encapsulated ISUP if they are > >determined to be out of date or inappropriate. I don't think that sending > >the COT or what have you is necessary - the terminating gateway has no use > >for this information; bug I agree with you that the originating gateway > >should withhold the INVITE in this case until it receives a COT - in fact, > >this is specified explicitly in draft-ietf-sip-isup-01 section 10.3. > > > >I envision that there will be a new SIP-T draft at some point that will > >address several types of potential ISUP modification in greater detail, > >including this sort of case. > > > >Jon Peterson > >Level(3) Communications > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: David Auerbach [mailto:dea@cisco.com] > >Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 9:00 AM > >To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com > >Subject: [SIP] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-isup-01.txt > > > > > >In looking at this draft and the SIP-T draft : > > > >I think it would be good for the draft(s) to address procedures for the > >case when an IAM is received > >at the ingress MGC with a COT on Previous circuit indication in the nature > >of call indicators. If the > >COT on previous indication is carried by the INVITE in the embedded ISUP to > >the egress MGC and > >sent in a subsequent IAM, either > > > > 1. a procedure should be defined for delivering the eventual COT > >message > >through the SIP > > network (INFO?) > > > >or > > > > 2. the ingress MGC must break the COT on previous chain and not > >send an > >INVITE > > with the embedded IAM indicating COT on previous. In this case, it > >the > >ingress > > MGC would have to hold up the INVITE until the COT message is > >received. > > > >Regards, > > > >David Auerbach > >EMEA Technology Center > >Cisco Systems Europe > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > >The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation,> > >and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > >To subscribe to it, send mail to > >sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 29 09:46:52 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA01225 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 09:46:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BCC644353; Tue, 29 May 2001 09:47:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2978E44353 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 09:46:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id JAA08197 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 09:50:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 29 May 2001 09:46:41 -0400 Message-ID: From: Jonathan Rosenberg To: "'sip@lists.bell-labs.com'" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [SIP] bis-03, at long last Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 09:46:36 -0400 Folks, At long last, draft-ietf-sip-rfc2543bis-03 is now available. I have just submitted it to the archives, and it will be available shortly from the IETF site. In the meantime, you can pick up txt, ps, and pdf versions at: http://www.jdrosen.net/papers/draft-ietf-sip-rfc2543bis-03.txt http://www.jdrosen.net/papers/draft-ietf-sip-rfc2543bis-03.pdf http://www.jdrosen.net/papers/draft-ietf-sip-rfc2543bis-03.ps The pdf and ps have changebars marking the most significant changes. Folks should be aware that the spec is generated using latex, and as a result, the changebars are not created automatically, but manually. This means that small, minor things (typos, minor corrections) may not have changebars. The most significant changes in the spec are the entirely new SDP appendix, and the new record-route text. See the changes section in the appendix for a more comprehensive list of changes. Thanks for your patience, Jonathan R. --- Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 72 Eagle Rock Ave. Chief Scientist First Floor dynamicsoft East Hanover, NJ 07936 jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 http://www.dynamicsoft.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 29 09:56:49 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id JAA01305 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 09:56:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 655694436C; Tue, 29 May 2001 09:57:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mailgate.pit.comms.marconi.com (mailgate.pit.comms.marconi.com [169.144.68.6]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CFEC44336 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 09:56:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailman.pit.comms.marconi.com (mailman.pit.comms.marconi.com [169.144.2.12]) by mailgate.pit.comms.marconi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06649 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 09:56:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from whq-msgrtr-01.pit.comms.marconi.com (whq-msgrtr-01.pit.comms.marconi.com [169.144.2.221]) by mailman.pit.comms.marconi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA16354 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 09:56:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by whq-msgrtr-01.pit.comms.marconi.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 29 May 2001 09:56:25 -0400 Message-ID: <4FBEA8857476D311A03300204840E1CF0446547F@whq-msgusr-02.pit.comms.marconi.com> From: "Rosen, Brian" To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [SIP] ALERT - sip lists are changing!!!! Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 09:56:20 -0400 As part of the split of the SIP working group, we are reorganizing the sip mail lists. A new sip list has been established at ietf.org. To subscribe to it, send a message to sip-request@ietf.org and specify "subscribe" as the BODY of the message. A new sipping list has been established at ietf.org. To subscribe to it, send a message to sipping-request@ietf.ord, and specify "subscribe" as the BODY of the message The sip list sip@lists.bell-labs.com will be deactivated in 3 weeks. As part of the transition, we ask that you immediately subscribe to the list(s) of your choice, recalling that sip is the core protocol changes, and sipping is use of sip. IMPORTANT - Please DO NOT send messages to sip@ietf.org or sipping@ietf.org yet. Give everyone a chance to subscribe. I will post a message in about a week advising you to switch to the new list. I will post a couple messages to the new lists just to assure you that the lists are working and you are subscribed. About a week later, I'll suggest that you unsubscribe from sip@lists.bell-labs.com (send a message to sip-request@lists.bell-labs.com, specify "unsubscribe" as the BODY of the message. This will eliminate any double postings. If you follow this sequence, there will never be a need to post to both lists. The experts on the list who answer questions will follow the directions. Posting to both list may annoy the folks who would help you, so PLEASE, don't double post. Thanks for your co-operation Brian sip co-chair _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 29 10:11:50 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA01934 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 10:11:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7B4644375; Tue, 29 May 2001 10:12:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DEE444336 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 10:11:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id KAA08728; Tue, 29 May 2001 10:14:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 29 May 2001 10:10:56 -0400 Message-ID: <9BF66EBF6BEFD942915B4D4D45C051F314A842@DYN-TX-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com> From: Robert Sparks To: "'Christian Jansson'" , David Simons , Jonathan Rosenberg Cc: "'sip@lists.bell-labs.com'" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [SIP] RE: [Simple] Difference between a SUBSCRIBE and a re-SUBSCRIBE Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 10:10:51 -0400 You are correct that a receiving agent can only expect increasing CSeqs due to the opportunity for intervening proxies to consume messages (with a 407 for example). The remaining motivation for increasing by 1 on the sending side, as I understand it, is preserving CSeq space. RjS > -----Original Message----- > From: Christian Jansson [mailto:christian@hotsip.com] > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 7:59 AM > To: David Simons; Jonathan Rosenberg > Cc: simple@mailman.dynamicsoft.com > Subject: Re: [Simple] Difference between a SUBSCRIBE and a > re-SUBSCRIBE > > > > > This doesn't strictly follow > > RFC2543 because the SUBSCRIBE CSeq wouldn't be contiguous. > But, it does > > keep the CSeq counts up-to-date. > >David J. Simons > > This requirement about contiguous CSeqs, is it really > necessary? Is it valid > at all? For example if there is one or more proxy servers > that requires > Proxy-Authentication some CSeqs may be used for resending > request with valid > credentials. So, a UAS should never expect to receive > contiguous CSeqs. But, > it should expect to receive strictly monotonically increasing > CSeqs. And if > this is the case, why do we put the requirement on the UAC to > send with > contiguous CSeqs. I think the requirement should be changed > to: "send with > strictly monotonically increasing CSeqs". > > Christian Jansson > Hotsip > www.hotsip.com > > > _______________________________________________ > simple mailing list > simple@mailman.dynamicsoft.com > http://mailman.dynamicsoft.com/mailman/listinfo/simple > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 29 10:16:50 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA02066 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 10:16:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CBDA4437F; Tue, 29 May 2001 10:17:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from hindon.hss.co.in (unknown [202.54.26.202]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6657F4437C for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 10:16:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hsssun01.hss.hns.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hindon.hss.co.in (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id f4TEHku17907 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 19:47:46 +0530 (IST) Received: from sampark.hss.hns.com (sampark [139.85.229.22]) by hsssun01.hss.hns.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with SMTP id f4TEPsS09637 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 19:55:58 +0530 (IST) Received: by sampark.hss.hns.com(Lotus SMTP MTA Internal build v4.6.2 (651.2 6-10-1998)) id 65256A5B.004E3366 ; Tue, 29 May 2001 19:44:09 +0530 X-Lotus-FromDomain: HSSBLR From: kbinu@hss.hns.com To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Message-ID: <65256A5B.004E3164.00@sampark.hss.hns.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Subject: [SIP] section 18.4 - bis-03 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:44:03 +0530 Hi, Section 18.4 talks about DoS attacks using spoofed Via headers. The situation described here however will not arise with simple Via spoofing since the proxy will add a received parameter to the Via header and the 401/407 response is sent back to the originator. For such an attack, the originator should also spoof the IP address. Is this what was meant here ? -Binu _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 29 11:05:50 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA03138 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 11:05:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 079F944386; Tue, 29 May 2001 11:06:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from VONAGE.COM (ATHM-216-216-xxx-113.home.net [216.216.39.113]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABC504435F for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 11:05:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 12AWKVON [64.21.177.174] by VONAGE.COM (SMTPD32-6.00) id A9E37B1D00D4; Tue, 29 May 2001 11:01:55 -0400 Reply-To: From: "Mark J. Yusko" To: "Jonathan Rosenberg" Cc: "SIP Lists" Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 Subject: [SIP] SIP, RTP, NTP (SNTP) and End Device Synchronization Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 11:05:28 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dr. Rosenberg - I have questions concerning required timing synchronization within a SIP-based voice network: a. Which network elements within an SIP-based, IP network should be synchronized? Should IP Phones? Mixers (Conference Bridges)? Is NTP (SNTP) recommended for all devices? b. Is end-point (IP phone-to-IP phone) synchronization required for RTP to function properly? The "old world" PSTN is dependent upon accurate timing and synchronization. With packetized voice, variable packet delay and loss can cause havoc with synchronization and window processing. c. Is a delayed, RTP encapsulated UDP packet ever "ignored" at the destination device due to extraneous packet delay or packet ordering? Regards, Mark J. Yusko Product Manager Vonage +1 (732) 528-2617 _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 29 12:27:46 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA05451 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 12:27:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8709C4454C; Tue, 29 May 2001 12:00:36 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from dogwood.cisco.com (dogwood.cisco.com [161.44.11.19]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BBB344438 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 11:43:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CHSHARP-W2K1.cisco.com (rtp-vpn-189.cisco.com [10.82.192.189]) by dogwood.cisco.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/CISCO.SERVER.1.2) with ESMTP id LAA16392; Tue, 29 May 2001 11:43:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010529113230.039fe280@dogwood.cisco.com> X-Sender: chsharp@dogwood.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 To: "Rosen, Brian" From: Chip Sharp Subject: Re: [SIP] ALERT - sip lists are changing!!!! Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com In-Reply-To: <4FBEA8857476D311A03300204840E1CF0446547F@whq-msgusr-02.pit .comms.marconi.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 11:43:00 -0400 I'm assuming for sipping you meant to say to send subscription requests to sipping-request@ietf.org :-) At 09:56 AM 5/29/2001, Rosen, Brian wrote: ...snip... >A new sipping list has been established at ietf.org. To subscribe >to it, send a message to sipping-request@ietf.ord, and specify "subscribe" >as the BODY of the message ...snip... ------------------------------------------------------------------- Chip Sharp Consulting Engineering Cisco Systems ------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 29 12:32:30 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA05550 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 12:32:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FA5A443FF; Tue, 29 May 2001 11:59:36 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mailgate.pit.comms.marconi.com (mailgate.pit.comms.marconi.com [169.144.68.6]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4657E44593 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 11:33:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailman.pit.comms.marconi.com (mailman.pit.comms.marconi.com [169.144.2.12]) by mailgate.pit.comms.marconi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA16062 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 11:33:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from whq-msgrtr-01.pit.comms.marconi.com (whq-msgrtr-01.pit.comms.marconi.com [169.144.2.221]) by mailman.pit.comms.marconi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA16468 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 11:33:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by whq-msgrtr-01.pit.comms.marconi.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 29 May 2001 11:33:20 -0400 Message-ID: <4FBEA8857476D311A03300204840E1CF04465481@whq-msgusr-02.pit.comms.marconi.com> From: "Rosen, Brian" To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [SIP] PEOPLE, PLEASE PAY ATTENTION Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 11:33:16 -0400 Already, there are three attempts to subscribe to the new lists by sending to the lists!!! The mailman listmanager is bouncing these attempts to me. This is just making work for me, and not getting you subscribed. You send your subscription to sip-request@ietf.org or sipping-request@ietf.org!!! Brian _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 29 12:33:55 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA05602 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 12:33:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E475144434; Tue, 29 May 2001 12:00:11 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mailgate.pit.comms.marconi.com (mailgate.pit.comms.marconi.com [169.144.68.6]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B1A044422 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 11:41:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailman.pit.comms.marconi.com (mailman.pit.comms.marconi.com [169.144.2.12]) by mailgate.pit.comms.marconi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA16808 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 11:41:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from whq-msgrtr-01.pit.comms.marconi.com (whq-msgrtr-01.pit.comms.marconi.com [169.144.2.221]) by mailman.pit.comms.marconi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA18647 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 11:41:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by whq-msgrtr-01.pit.comms.marconi.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 29 May 2001 11:41:25 -0400 Message-ID: <4FBEA8857476D311A03300204840E1CF04465484@whq-msgusr-02.pit.comms.marconi.com> From: "Rosen, Brian" To: "'sip@lists.bell-labs.com'" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [SIP] FW: PEOPLE, PLEASE PAY ATTENTION Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 11:41:24 -0400 It was brought to my attention that there is a typo in the orginal message which says "sipping-request@ietf.ord", note the last letter, should be "g" as in (goodness) ".org". I wonder why my spell checker didn't catch it :) Brian -----Original Message----- From: Rosen, Brian Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 11:33 AM To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: PEOPLE, PLEASE PAY ATTENTION Already, there are three attempts to subscribe to the new lists by sending to the lists!!! The mailman listmanager is bouncing these attempts to me. This is just making work for me, and not getting you subscribed. You send your subscription to sip-request@ietf.org or sipping-request@ietf.org!!! Brian _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 29 13:01:54 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA06594 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 13:01:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EAAA44353; Tue, 29 May 2001 13:00:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from awcst169.netaddress.usa.net (awcst169.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.69]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 92FD044371 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 12:59:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 15961 invoked by uid 60001); 29 May 2001 16:59:16 -0000 Message-ID: <20010529165916.15960.qmail@awcst169.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.69 by awcst169 for [63.87.1.106] via web-mailer(34FM.0700.17C.01) on Tue May 29 16:59:16 GMT 2001 From: Payman N To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (34FM.0700.17C.01) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [SIP] a Question Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: 29 May 2001 11:59:16 CDT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ietf.org id NAA06594 Hi, I am in the process of writting a paper about design a Simulator for SIP and am looking to know which companies are working on SIM design and implementation. Is there any list? Sincerely, Payman ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=1 _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 29 15:07:44 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id PAA09380 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 15:07:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B20C6443C6; Tue, 29 May 2001 15:05:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from east.isi.edu (east.isi.edu [38.245.76.2]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36F434436C for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 13:14:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from chiron.east.isi.edu (chiron.east.isi.edu [38.218.19.204]) by east.isi.edu (8.11.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id f4THEMk05986; Tue, 29 May 2001 13:14:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from chiron (csp@localhost) by chiron.east.isi.edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f4THEYY02881; Tue, 29 May 2001 13:14:34 -0400 Message-Id: <200105291714.f4THEYY02881@chiron.east.isi.edu> To: mark.yusko@vonage.com Cc: "Jonathan Rosenberg" , "SIP Lists" Subject: Re: [SIP] SIP, RTP, NTP (SNTP) and End Device Synchronization In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 29 May 2001 11:05:28 EDT." From: Colin Perkins Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 13:14:34 -0400 Questions about RTP should be addressed to the rem-conf@es.net mailing list, rather than SIP... --> "Mark J. Yusko" writes: >Dr. Rosenberg - > >I have questions concerning required timing synchronization within a >SIP-based voice network: > >a. Which network elements within an SIP-based, IP network should be >synchronized? >Should IP Phones? Mixers (Conference Bridges)? >Is NTP (SNTP) recommended for all devices? None of them are required to be synchronised (expect if you are sending a multimedia presentation from multiple machines and want to lip-sync the result, in which case the sending systems need to be sync'd). >b. Is end-point (IP phone-to-IP phone) synchronization required for RTP to >function properly? No. >The "old world" PSTN is dependent upon accurate timing and synchronization. >With packetized >voice, variable packet delay and loss can cause havoc with synchronization >and window processing. The receiver needs to be smart enough to cope with variable delay, and to reconstruct the timing. >c. Is a delayed, RTP encapsulated UDP packet ever "ignored" at the >destination device due to extraneous >packet delay or packet ordering? Possibly, yes. It's application dependent, the standard does not specify the behaviour. Colin _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 29 16:20:50 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA10563 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 16:20:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A1CA443EC; Tue, 29 May 2001 16:14:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 466FE44395 for ; Tue, 29 May 2001 16:13:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id QAA15447; Tue, 29 May 2001 16:16:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Tue, 29 May 2001 16:12:57 -0400 Message-ID: From: Jonathan Rosenberg To: "'pskrish@miel.mot.com'" , sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu Cc: "SipWg (E-mail)" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [SIP] RE: [Sip-implementors] Query on Multicast transmission in SIP Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 16:12:56 -0400 > -----Original Message----- > From: Sudharsana krishnan P [mailto:pskrish@miel.mot.com] > Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 5:15 AM > To: sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu > Cc: SipWg (E-mail) > Subject: [Sip-implementors] Query on Multicast transmission in SIP > > > All, > > I need some help in understanding the following: > > Section 10.0.1 bis02 says > "Servers do not respond to CANCEL requests received via > multicast to avoid request implosion. A proxy or UAC > SHOULD send a CANCEL on receiving the first 2xx, > 401, 407 or 6xx response to a multicast request." > > The above statement seems to imply that the multicast CANCEL would end > up transmitted a total of 11 times (by the UAC/Proxy) always. > Is this the intended behaviour ? Ah, the joys of reliable multicast. That is the way it works now, yes. Ugly. Since CANCEL needs to be received by all downstream servers in the multicast group, there is no other way to do it without real reliable multicast. > > If not, text(caveat) should be inserted to state that the UAC/Proxy > may stop retransmissions (of cancel) after, > say an implementation specified maximum. I'd really rather not special case it, so it seems that the specified default of 11 is fine. -Jonathan R. --- Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 72 Eagle Rock Ave. Chief Scientist First Floor dynamicsoft East Hanover, NJ 07936 jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 http://www.dynamicsoft.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 30 08:57:50 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id IAA08913 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 08:57:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C9BE44340; Wed, 30 May 2001 08:58:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from hindon.hss.co.in (unknown [202.54.26.202]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA73844336 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 08:57:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hsssun01.hss.hns.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hindon.hss.co.in (8.10.0/8.10.0) with ESMTP id f4UCwIn13745 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 18:28:18 +0530 (IST) Received: from sampark.hss.hns.com (sampark [139.85.229.22]) by hsssun01.hss.hns.com (8.10.0/8.10.0) with SMTP id f4UD6WS03899 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 18:36:33 +0530 (IST) Received: by sampark.hss.hns.com(Lotus SMTP MTA Internal build v4.6.2 (651.2 6-10-1998)) id 65256A5C.0046F110 ; Wed, 30 May 2001 18:24:52 +0530 X-Lotus-FromDomain: HSSBLR From: kbinu@hss.hns.com To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Message-ID: <65256A5C.0046F08C.00@sampark.hss.hns.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Subject: [SIP] Problems with multi-proxy authentication Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 18:24:50 +0530 Hi, The call-flows draft shows a multi-proxy authentication scenario where a client sends two Proxy-Authorization headers in a request message. The Proxy-Authorization header grammar doesn't provide for multiple Proxy-Authorization header instances in a message. Perhaps this grammar needs to be defined differently for SIP instead of referring to the syntax in the HTTP draft. The other issue is regarding proxies optionally consuming or relaying the credentials in a message. Wouldn't this add to the complexity of proxy implementations for figuring out when to consume and when to leave it alone ? Wouldn't it be simpler if proxies never consumed the proxy-authorization header and proxies expecting credentials tried out the entire list of Proxy-Authorization headers for a match ? Also the draft currently does not seem to specify if proxies should only check the topmost Proxy-Authorization header if they are expecting a response to a challenge. -Binu _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 30 11:04:50 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA14002 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 11:04:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C6E444379; Wed, 30 May 2001 11:05:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from hs004.hotsip.com (unknown [212.28.214.197]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 493FE4438D for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 11:03:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from RYMDIS (dhcp013.hotsip.com [212.28.214.213]) by hs004.hotsip.com (8.11.0/8.11.0/SuSE Linux 8.11.0-0.4) with SMTP id f4UF3l605309; Wed, 30 May 2001 17:03:47 +0200 X-Authentication-Warning: hs004.hotsip.com: Host dhcp013.hotsip.com [212.28.214.213] claimed to be RYMDIS Message-ID: <02bd01c0e919$f04c99a0$d5d61cd4@RYMDIS> From: "Christian Jansson" To: , References: <65256A5C.0046F08C.00@sampark.hss.hns.com> Subject: Re: [SIP] Problems with multi-proxy authentication MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 17:05:17 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some questions on the multi-proxy authentication scenario from draft-ietf-sip-call-flows-03.txt: How should the UAC figure out that the second 407 is from another server than the first 407 came from, and not that the credentials sent to Proxy1 were wrong? In both cases the UAC sends the INVITE with the same Request-URI I assume, and because the realm could be any text string, both servers could have realm="SIP-Proxy". So what is the significant difference that makes the UAC add two Proxy-Authorization headers to the INVITE. Another question is about the description of Proxy-Authenticate.The last sentence states that: "The server responds with 401 (Unauthorized) if the client guessed wrong". And the description for WWW-Authenticate states that: "the WWW-Authenticate response-header MUST be included in 401". But the handling of WWW-Authenticate seems to be totally different as it is based on the To header while Proxy-Authenticate handling is based on the Request-Uri. So how is a UAC supposed to handle this? I also think that the description of Proxy-Authenticate is a bit strange as it talks a lot about the UAC "contacting a specific proxy server". Since when did a SIP UAC actually know that it was going to contact a proxy server and not a UAS, or a redirect server? Christian Jansson Hotsip www.hotsip.com > The call-flows draft shows a multi-proxy authentication scenario where a > client sends two Proxy-Authorization headers in a request message. The > Proxy-Authorization header grammar doesn't provide for multiple > Proxy-Authorization header instances in a message. Perhaps this grammar > needs to be defined differently for SIP instead of referring to the syntax > in the HTTP draft. > > The other issue is regarding proxies optionally consuming or relaying the > credentials in a message. Wouldn't this add to the complexity of proxy > implementations for figuring out when to consume and when to leave it alone > ? Wouldn't it be simpler if proxies never consumed the proxy-authorization > header and proxies expecting credentials tried out the entire list of > Proxy-Authorization headers for a match ? Also the draft currently does not > seem to specify if proxies should only check the topmost > Proxy-Authorization header if they are expecting a response to a challenge. > > -Binu _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 30 12:15:52 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA16374 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 12:15:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B3E64436C; Wed, 30 May 2001 12:16:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 714C244336 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 06:48:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA04977; Wed, 30 May 2001 06:47:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200105301047.GAA04977@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: [SIP] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-rfc2543bis-03.txt,.ps Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 06:47:45 -0400 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Session Initiation Protocol Working Group of the IETF. Title : SIP: Session Initiation Protocol Author(s) : M. Handley, H. Schulzrinne, E. Schooler, J. Rosenberg Filename : draft-ietf-sip-rfc2543bis-03.txt,.ps Pages : 190 Date : 29-May-01 The Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) is an application-layer control (signaling) protocol for creating, modifying and terminating sessions with one or more participants. These sessions include Internet multimedia conferences, Internet telephone calls and multimedia distribution. Members in a session can communicate via multicast or via a mesh of unicast relations, or a combination of these. SIP invitations used to create sessions carry session descriptions which allow participants to agree on a set of compatible media types. SIP supports user mobility by proxying and redirecting requests to the user's current location. Users can register their current location. SIP is not tied to any particular conference control protocol. SIP is designed to be independent of the lower-layer transport protocol and can be extended with additional capabilities. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-rfc2543bis-03.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-sip-rfc2543bis-03.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-rfc2543bis-03.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20010529142320.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-rfc2543bis-03.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-sip-rfc2543bis-03.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20010529142320.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 30 12:18:44 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id MAA16470 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 12:18:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDB2A44399; Wed, 30 May 2001 12:16:17 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from kuku.excite.com (kuku-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.63]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8B3244371 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 10:08:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hippie.excite.com ([199.172.148.180]) by kuku.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20010530140846.MILQ14474.kuku.excite.com@hippie.excite.com>; Wed, 30 May 2001 07:08:46 -0700 Message-ID: <18817594.991231726170.JavaMail.imail@hippie.excite.com> From: Venkata Rajesh Velamakanni To: OpenH323@openh323.org, sip@lists.bell-labs.com, sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu, imtch323implementors@mail.imtc.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 202.177.132.140 Subject: [SIP] Need Info on Commercial RTP Stacks Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 07:08:46 -0700 (PDT) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, I am looking for a commercial RTP / RTCP stack for Linux, Solaris and Windows95. If anyone on this mailing list has commercial RTP /RTCP Stack, please contact me personally. Thanks & Regards, Rajesh. _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 30 14:55:54 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id OAA21510 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 14:55:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E05D64437E; Wed, 30 May 2001 14:56:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from broadsof.temp.veriohosting.com (broadsof.temp.veriohosting.com [161.58.239.68]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AF9644336 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 14:55:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tate ([64.243.180.244]) by broadsof.temp.veriohosting.com (8.11.2) id f4UItof90732; Wed, 30 May 2001 14:55:50 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: From: "Brett Tate" To: "SIP (E-mail)" Message-ID: <002d01c0e93a$853ebc30$2b01a8c0@broadsoft.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Subject: [SIP] draft-ietf-sip-session-timer-04: INVITE with Require and Support timer and Session-Expires Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 14:58:29 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What should happen if a UAC sends an INVITE with Session-Expires and both Supported timer and Require timer? What should happen if the UAS responds to such a request and includes the same the three headers and values? Are both now effectively responsible for sending refreshes? Or is the UAS forbidden from sending such a response? _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@ietf.org Wed May 30 16:58:44 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA24547; Wed, 30 May 2001 16:58:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA24470; Wed, 30 May 2001 16:53:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA24443 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 16:53:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgate.pit.comms.marconi.com ([169.144.68.6]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id QAA24404 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 16:52:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailman.pit.comms.marconi.com (mailman.pit.comms.marconi.com [169.144.2.12]) by mailgate.pit.comms.marconi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA06641 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 16:52:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from whq-msgrtr-01.pit.comms.marconi.com (whq-msgrtr-01.pit.comms.marconi.com [169.144.2.221]) by mailman.pit.comms.marconi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA09572 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 16:52:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by whq-msgrtr-01.pit.comms.marconi.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 30 May 2001 16:52:39 -0400 Message-ID: <4FBEA8857476D311A03300204840E1CF044654B4@whq-msgusr-02.pit.comms.marconi.com> From: "Rosen, Brian" To: "'sip@ietf.org'" Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 16:52:35 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [Sip] Welcome Message #1 Sender: sip-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: sip-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org Yes, you are subscribed to the new sip list. No, we are not yet ready to have postings to it yet, please continue to use sip@lists.bell-labs.com. Thanks Brian _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list Sip@ietf.org http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 30 18:42:46 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id SAA26709 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 18:42:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09E904433B; Wed, 30 May 2001 18:43:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27CEA44336 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 18:42:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id SAA03886; Wed, 30 May 2001 18:46:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 30 May 2001 18:42:06 -0400 Message-ID: From: Jonathan Rosenberg To: kbinu@hss.hns.com, sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] section 18.4 - bis-03 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 18:42:06 -0400 > -----Original Message----- > From: kbinu@hss.hns.com [mailto:kbinu@hss.hns.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 10:14 AM > To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com > Subject: [SIP] section 18.4 - bis-03 > > > > > Hi, > Section 18.4 talks about DoS attacks using spoofed Via > headers. The > situation described here however will not arise with simple > Via spoofing > since the proxy will add a received parameter to the Via > header and the > 401/407 response is sent back to the originator. For such an > attack, the > originator should also spoof the IP address. Is this what was > meant here ? Yes. I'll update the text to indicate that. -Jonathan R. --- Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 72 Eagle Rock Ave. Chief Scientist First Floor dynamicsoft East Hanover, NJ 07936 jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 http://www.dynamicsoft.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 30 18:44:13 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id SAA26811 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 18:44:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B68F443AB; Wed, 30 May 2001 18:43:23 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9D2C44336 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 18:42:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id SAA03892; Wed, 30 May 2001 18:46:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 30 May 2001 18:42:23 -0400 Message-ID: From: Jonathan Rosenberg To: Eber Mello , "Sip@Lists. Bell-Labs. Com" Subject: RE: [SIP] Uniqueness of call-id MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 18:42:21 -0400 > -----Original Message----- > From: Eber Mello [mailto:eber@SS8.com] > Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 9:33 AM > To: Sip@Lists. Bell-Labs. Com > Subject: [SIP] Uniqueness of call-id > > > > Hi, > > Can someone help me understand this apparent contradition on > the SIP bis > spec: > > How can it be possible for "two instances of a user sharing a > SIP address > ... make call invitations with the same Call-ID" (section > 6.26) if "The > callid > MUST be a globally unique identifier and MUSTNOT be reused for later > calls" (section 6.13)? [apart from the use of call-id in the > REFER method, > where the transferee uses the same call-id of the transferor > for the new > call > to the transfer-target]. Way back when, we were considering fully distributed multiparty conferencing models. In these models, each participant has a call leg to each other, each with the same Call-ID and different tags. The problem arose when a user would join the conference call from their desk, go to the lab to check something, and attempt to join the conference from there. The user identity is the same, as is the Call-ID. To distinguish, the From tag was needed. Now, since then, we have found that fully distributed multiparty conferencing is rather hard and really not worth the trouble, so this becomes a non-issue. However, From tags are now mandatory in bis-03, but for a different reason. Without them, you cannot reliably distinguish a re-INVITE in the reverse direction from an initial INVITE, and this can cause some problems in a few scenarios (such as a crash and restart of the caller, or a response to a re-INVITE from an intermediary proxy that adds a tag to the To field) -Jonathan R. --- Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 72 Eagle Rock Ave. Chief Scientist First Floor dynamicsoft East Hanover, NJ 07936 jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 http://www.dynamicsoft.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 30 18:48:29 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id SAA26878 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 18:48:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3023B443BB; Wed, 30 May 2001 18:43:40 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3371144336 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 18:42:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id SAA03890; Wed, 30 May 2001 18:46:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 30 May 2001 18:42:20 -0400 Message-ID: From: Jonathan Rosenberg To: "'Bryan Byerly'" , Jonathan Rosenberg Cc: stlevy@cisco.com, Igor Slepchin , patrick_mourot@online.fr, sip@lists.bell-labs.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Subject: [SIP] RE: [Sip-implementors] Discussion about Diversion Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 18:42:19 -0400 My apologies for the tardiness of this reply. I chose to spend all of my "IETF cycles" on updating bis, instead of answering list email. Now that bis-03 is back, its time to get back to the 450 unread sip list messages in my inbox. -----Original Message----- From: Bryan Byerly [mailto:byerly@cisco.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 12:09 PM To: Jonathan Rosenberg Cc: stlevy@cisco.com; byerly@cisco.com; ISlepchin@dynamicsoft.com; patrick_mourot@online.fr; sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: Re: [Sip-implementors] Discussion about Diversion >Hi Jonathan, > >Thank you for your responses. I appreciate discussion on the Diversion I-D. Comments are >in-line. >Jonathan Rosenberg wrote: > >>The Diversion header is clearly just the SIP >>reincarnation of the existing redirecting number from ISDN and ISUP. That, >>of course, facilitates interoperability with ISDN/ISUP. However, it means >>that gateways may not properly set the redirecting number in ISUP/ISDN in >>the absence of the Diversion header. Similarly, SIP-enabled systems that >>look for the Diversion header to define services may not function properly >>in the absence of Diversion. As a result of that, Diversion basically >>becomes mandatory for these to work. > >I think you've just made the case for the Diversion header. ;^) I could make the same point above for every single ISUP/ISDN parameter. I suppose you would argue, then, that these too should therefore be added to SIP? >However, in the instance of the Diversion header, no Proxy-Require header is needed. The >Diversion header is supplemental information. If a SIP proxy involved in a PSTN call >doesn't add it, the worst that will happen is that the customer expected behavior may not >occur and customers may complain until such time that the expected behavior is achieved. Sounds like you are making the case for Proxy-Require here. Proxy-Require is needed in a request if it cannot be processed correctly without understanding the extension. Correctly, to me, implies that the result of the call is what the customer expects. If they need to call customer support every time they make a call, because it doesn't do the right thing, that sounds like an extension that is mandatory. >>Now, this problem is fixable. As Allison has mentioned during IETF 50, all >>extensions henceforth MUST describe how backwards compatibility operates. >>Therefore, the draft MUST describe how gateways, voicemail servers, and >>anything else that looks at Diversion, would work in its absence. > >So, the backward compatibilty issue is that this supplemental information was not provided >in the past. Thus, services relying on this supplemental information didn't work in the >past. This is a red herring. Once you've built devices which expect to see this header, you now have to worry about the fact that existing proxies and UAs won't insert it. I am really concerned about defining new extensions that effectively require every single proxy to insert a new header for every single request, in order to support proper operation of services which may occassionally get invoked. The answer, "well, the customers will just call customer support", hardly seems satisfactory. >===================== >Scenario 1: Off-net diversion >===================== >In the following ladder diagram, a call is placed from the PSTN to 5551234 which hangs off >of the 555xxxx PBX. The Call Forward No Answer (CFNA) timer expires in the PBX, and the >PBX diverts the call to the user's admin/secretary at 5551001. The secretary's phone is >busy, so the PBX diverts the call through the local PSTN/SIP gateway and SIP proxy to the >voicemail service with which the enterprise has contracted, in this case a SIP voicemail >service. The SIP proxy performs an (ENUM) lookup of 9231000 which resolves to 3.3.3.3. > >When the call reaches the voicemail server, the message may be deposited into a voice >mailbox for 5551234, 5551000, or both depending on the configured policy. > >In addition, in practice one would normally encounter scenarios where the SIP proxy is >owned by a carrier and the voicemail server by a third party. In this example, usage of >the Diversion header allows voicemail service policy to be changed (by the voicemail >provider) without requiring changes in the carrier's equipment. Since the service is provided for the carriers benefit, don't you think the carrier should determine what service is invoked when a request is sent to the voicemail provider? >RFC3087 approach: > >In this approach, every carrier's PSTN/SIP GW would need to be configured with voicemail >vendor X's service policy. For N voicemail service vendors, there would need to be (at >least) N policy rules in each PSTN/SIP GW. Assuming voicemail service policy which is >configurable per-user, there would be the sum (from 1 to NumVoicemailVendors) of the >number of users of each voicemail vendor: > >NumVoicemailVendors >-- >\ NumUsers(i) >/ >-- >i=1 >As the number of (voicemail) service vendors increases, the complexity of this policy >configuration at _every_ PSTN/SIP GW increases. You have a whole bunch of assumptions here that I think are not right. First off, I don't expect a carrier to work with THAT many voicemail providers all at once. Maybe 3 or something like that. Secondly, there is absolutely, positively no reason why the URI syntax would vary from end user to end user, so your summation is irrelevant. Furthermore, even though voicemail providers could, in principal, use different URI syntax as rfc3087 discusses, I suspect many would adopt common naming conventions (such as the one spelled out in rfc3087). We've seen the same thing in dialing plans, which have a few variants but are repeated alot across enterprise systems. So, the configuration burden is not much different than between peer voip carriers in a clearinghouse, who must agree on numbering plans and other URI formatting conventions (which domain name to use, tel url vs. sip url, etc.). So, realistically, this is not much of an administrative burden in a gateway. You can always forward the call, using SIP-T, to some application platform which does the same thing the gateway would otherwise do, if you want to outsource the function. I compare this burden, with the burden that Diversion requires - that every proxy support it for all requests - and this configuration seems very minor. >==================================== >Scenario 2: Diversion to Off-net voicemail server >==================================== >In the following ladder diagram, a call is placed from a SIP user agent (UA1) to 5551111. >The SIP proxy resolves this to another SIP user agent (UA2). The Call Forward No Answer >(CFNA) timer expires in the SIP proxy, and the SIP proxy diverts the call to the user's >admin/secretary at 5551112. The secretary's phone is busy, so the SIP proxy diverts the >call through the local SIP/PSTN gateway to a PSTN voicemail service. > >When the call reaches the voicemail server, the message may be deposited into a voice >mailbox for 5551234, 5551000, or both depending on the configured policy. >In addition, in practice one would normally encounter scenarios where the SIP proxy and >SIP GW is owned by a carrier and the voicemail server by a third party. In this example, >usage of the Diversion header allows voicemail service policy to be changed (by the >voicemail provider) without requiring changes in the carrier's equipment. >RFC3087 approach: >-------------- >Voicemail policy configuration---++ > || > || > \/ > |<---------carrier A--------->|<-Voicemail vendor X->| > (666xxxx) > (5551111) (5551112) (1.1.1.1) (2.2.2.2) >UA1 UA2 UAS3 SIP Proxy SIP/PSTN GW PSTN voicemail server >| | | | | | >|--INVITE ---------------------->| | | >| sip:5551111@1.1.1.1;user=phone | | >| | | | | >| |<-INVITE----------------| | | >| | sip:5551111@UA2;user=phone | | >| | | | | | >| |--180------------------>| | | >| | | | | | >|<-180---------------------------| | | >| | | | | | >| | | CFNA timer expires | | >| | | | | | >| | |<-INVITE------| | | >| | | sip:5551112@UA3;user=phone | | >| | | | | | >| | |--486-------->| | | >| | | CFBusy | | >| | | |--INVITE----->| | >| | | | sip:6661112@2.2.2.2;user=phone | >| | | | | | >| | | | |-Setup----------->| >| | | | | called:6661112 | >| | | | | | >| | | | |<-Call Proceeding-| >| | | | |<-Alerting--------| >| | | |<-180---------| | >|<-180---------------------------| | | >| | | | |<-Connect---------| >| | | |<-200---------| | >|<-200---------------------------| | | >|--ACK----------------------------------------->| | >Here's a second call, using the same voicemail server: >Voicemail policy configuration---++ > || > || > \/ > |<---------carrier A-------->|<-Voicemail vendor X->| > (666xxxx) > (1.1.1.1) (2.2.2.2) >UA3 UA4 UAS5 SIP Proxy SIP/PSTN GW PSTN voicemail server >| | | | | | >|--INVITE ---------------------->| | | >| sip:5551114@1.1.1.1;user=phone | | >| | | | | >| |<-INVITE----------------| | | >| | sip:5551114@UA4;user=phone | | >| | | | | | >| |--180------------------>| | | >| | | | | | >|<-180---------------------------| | | >| | | | | | >| | | CFNA timer expires | | >| | | | | | >| | |<-INVITE------| | | >| | | sip:5551115@UA3;user=phone | | >| | | | | | >| | |--486-------->| | | >| | | CFBusy | | >| | | |--INVITE----->| | >| | | | sip:6661115@2.2.2.2;user=phone | >| | | | | | >| | | | |-Setup----------->| >| | | | | called:6661115 | >| | | | | | >| | | | |<-Call Proceeding-| >| | | | |<-Alerting--------| >| | | |<-180---------| | >|<-180---------------------------| | | >| | | | |<-Connect---------| >| | | |<-200---------| | >|<-200---------------------------| | | >|--ACK----------------------------------------->| | >In this approach, the voicemail server must own a block of E.164 numbers (one per >subscriber). For N voicemail service subscribers, the voicemail server would need to own >N E.164 numbers. As the numbers of subscribers increases, this may become a significant >cost-issue for the voicemail service vendor. Thats only if you perform the gateway function in this fashion. This is exactly what I was talking about regarding considerations for backwards compatibility. When the proxy decides to call-forward-busy to the voicemail service, it constructs a sip URL like: sip:666222-5551114-dep-fb@gw-ip-address which indicates the number of the voicemail server (666222) and then the rest is the username, service, and reason as described in rfc3087. You can argue that this is a configuration burden for a gateway compared to diversion, but thats a red herring also. Both approaches carry two phone numbers; both approaches require the gateway to know to look for both numbers (in one case, it looks for Diversion, and in the other, looks for a specific URI format). The huge difference is that one approach requires all proxies to insert this header henceforth for all time, and the other does not. >Also notice that, in this approach, voicemail service policy is configured in the >carrier's SIP proxy. >Diversion I-D approach: >------------------ >Voicemail policy configuration------------------------------------++ > || > || > \/ > |<---------carrier A------->|<-Voicemail vendor->| > (66622222) > (5551111) (5551112) (1.1.1.1) (2.2.2.2) >UA1 UA2 UAS3 SIP Proxy SIP/PSTN GW PSTN voicemail server >| | | | | | >|--INVITE ---------------------->| | | >| sip:5551111@1.1.1.1;user=phone | | >| | | | | >| |<-INVITE----------------| | | >| | sip:5551111@UA2;user=phone | | >| | | | | | >| | | CFNA timer expires | | >| | | | | | >| | |<-INVITE------| | | >| | | sip:5551112@UA3;user=phone | | >| | | Diversion: ;reason=cfna >| | | | | | >| | |--486-------->| | | >| | | CFBusy | | >| | | |--INVITE----->| | >| | | | sip:6662222@2.2.2.2;user=phone | >| | | | Diversion: 1.1.1.1;user=phone>;reason=cfb, >| | | | 1.1.1.1;user=phone>;reason=cfna >| | | | | | >| | | | |-Setup----------->| >| | | | | called:6662222 | >| | | | | 1st Redirection: 5551111 >| | | | | 2nd Redirection: 5551112 >| | | | | | >| | | | |<-Connect---------| >| | | | |<-Call Proceeding-| >| | | | |<-Alerting--------| >| | | |<-180---------| | >|<-180---------------------------| | | >| | | | |<-Connect---------| >| | | |<-200---------| | >|<-200---------------------------| | | >|--ACK----------------------------------------->| | >With this approach, the voicemail vendor only needs one E.164 number and no policy >configuration in the carrier's SIP GW or SIP proxy is needed. Each voicemail service >vendor locally configures the desired policy. I would still like to understand how you propose handling the feature interaction problem in such a manner. All the work in feature interaction to date has been aimed at avoiding constructing such "policies" that consider the interactions of all features in one piece of logic. > > >* I would really appreciate voicemail vendors (and voicemail equipment manufacturers) >speaking up on this issue. Are you actually willing to depend on your carrier to >configure your service policy (per RFC3087)? Are you willing to wait for your carrier to >deploy equipment that can configure the service policy? When your carrier misconfigures >your service policy, who will your customers blame? What incentive will the carrier have >to fix the problem in a timely fashion? Wouldn't you rather be in control of your own >policy (using a mechanism such as the Diversion I-D)? >* I would also appreciate feedback from carriers (and carrier equipment manufacturers). >Per RFC3087, do you really want to have to change the policy in all of your domain's >border (GW and proxy) nodes everytime a third-party (voicemail) service customer wants to >change a service policy for one of their customers? What incentive do you have to update >this policy in a timely manner? What incentive do you have to deploy equipment to support >third-party policy configuration? Wouldn't you rather the (voicemail) service vendors >just manage their own policy (using a mechanism such as the Diversion I-D)? The voicemail provider serves the carrier. When the carrier sends a call to the voicemail provider, presumably its because there was a specific service the carrier wanted from the voicemail provider (i.e., leave a message). How can you argue that the carrier has no place in dictating what the service is that is provided by its service provider? Let me give an analogy in another related space. Lets say a carrier is providing conferencing services. It outsources that to a conferencing provider. When a user makes a call to join the conference, the provider forwards the call to a particular number (i.e., request URI) at the conferencing provider. Applying your argument here, the conferencing provider should determine which conference each user gets dropped into, rather than it being dictated by the request URI as set by the provider (as in draft-rosenberg-sip-conferencing-models and draft-rosenberg-sip-app-components, where the R-URI identifies the conference). The conferencing provider would sometimes look at the Subject line, and mix together all calls with the same Subject. Or, maybe it keeps lists of who likes who, and mixes together users who are known to be friends. Clearly, I am being ridiculous, but it is to make a point. The feature WILL NOT WORK as users expect unless there is a clear serviec interface between the carrier and its conferencing provider. That service interface dictates exactly what happens when a call is sent to that provider. Without knowing that, the carrier has no way to know how and when to send calls to the conferencing provider. The notion of the request URI clearly identifying the resource to be invoked, is at the heart of rfc3087, the app components architecture, and the multiparty conferencing models. Do you believe that this approach is flawed? >> >>Onto the next issue. >>I believe the point was made that Diversion simplifies PSTN >>interoperability. If a request has been diverted in the PSTN, we can carry >>the PSTN diversion information in SIP in the Diversion headers. This way, we >>can design SIP enabled systems that provide servers to PSTN endpoints, >>without loss of information. However, we've talked about this issue for a >>long time. The SIP group has already decided that instead of defining each >>ISUP/ISDN header as a SIP header, we will encapsulate these PSTN messages as >>bodies, and use SIP-T. That means we can still build SIP enabled systems >>that provide services to PSTN users, without loss of information, yet we can >>avoid replicating each ISUP header into SIP. > >If PSTN calls use SIP only for backbone signalling, the SIP-T encapsulation approach is >fine. However, when terminating SIP calls on PSTN networks, or PSTN calls on SIP >networks, a translative approach is needed to achieve the expected behavior. Fine enough. One can easily translate this request URI: sip:666222-5551114-dep-fb@gw-ip-address into the appropriate ISUP. >Although I'm not advocating replicating every ISUP header in SIP, I don't see anything >wrong with using equivalent (or a superset) of functionality of useful ISUP headers. A >case-by-case approach seems appropriate to me. Regardless, this draft's sole focus is >Diversion information. This would be true if you wanted to assume that the model for features and services in ISUP should be the same as SIP. I'm not prepared to do that. >>OK, now to some nitty gritty issues I have with Diversion. It says that the >>proxies only insert the Diversion header when the call is diverted, which is >>defined as: >>diversion: A change to the ultimate destination endpoint >> of a request. A change in the Request-URI of a >> request that was not caused by a routing decision. >> This is also sometimes called a deflection or >>redirection. >>A diversion can occur when the "user" portion of the >> Request-URI is changed for a reason other than >> expansion or translation. >>Now, I would be really impressed if someone can tell me how to program a >>proxy to know the difference between a routing decision that changes the >>ultimate destination, and one that does not. In SIP, we make no distinction >>between the two. > >One suggestion is to apply the same algorithm that we use for spiral loop detection. If >the user portion of the (sip:user@host) URL does not change, then consider it a simple >routing decision (that does not require a Diversion header). If the user portion of the >(sip:user@host) URL does change, then add a Diversion header. This is a big assumption. It will do the wrong thing in cases. As Anders has pointed out, people use many different email addresses. In fact, within dynamicsoft, I have both jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com and jrosenberg@dynamicsoft.com. The latter is actually the "official" email address which drives internal configurations. As a result, the dynamicsoft proxy will need to translate jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com to jrosenberg@dynamicsoft.com. This would be marked as a Diversion by your approach. WHen this gets sent to the voicemail provider, what will happen? No clue, of course, because with your approach there is no well defined service interface. Its up to the "policy" of the provider. Here's another example, even more interesting. Someone calls 19749525000@dynamicsoft.com. This is our main number. When it reaches our proxy, it gets translated to 5000@dynamicsoft.com, since we use 4 digit extensions internally. So, here, the username has changed, but the end user has not. Another funny one. Lets say I have a secretary, Jack D. Rosen, who is a contractor for secretaries.com. A call comes for me, and rings my phone. I'm not there. So, the proxy diverts, and forwards to Jack. Jacks email is jdrosen@secretaries.com. Same username as me, but different domain. Now, according to your algorithm, this won't be considered a diversion, and so if Jack is not there, it drops to his voicemail instead of mine. Of course, had my voicemail application running in my domain been EXPLICIT and specifically tried to drop a message to my voicemail, it would work. These are all symptoms of a system whereby applications are invoked implicitly by trying to guess the sequence of logic and behaviors in upstream devices which resulted in the call being delivered to it. >>So, effectively, every single proxy or redirect operation >>will require the insertion of this Diversion header. This means another set >>of stacked headers, of exactly the same length as the Via headers. That >>significant overhead, and its additional processing. Furthermore, every >>proxy would need to do it for each and every call, since they don't know >>whether the ultimate recipient will need to make use of Diversion to provide >>some services. > >As I've described above, this argument does not apply. If the user portion of the URL >changes, add a Diversion header. If the user portion of the URL doesn't change, don't add >a Diversion header. Well, even if this were true, and it isn't, every proxy that modifies the r-URI username would need to insert a diversion header, since it can't know whether a voicemail server might be reached downstream. Thus, in order for the voicemail service to work with high reliability, every proxy server that changes the request URI username must always insert this, which means its a Proxy-Require (and I have argued that it will need to be there even when the R-URI username doesn't change, since the proxy can't know reliably whether its a diversion.) > >>The final concern I have is a "slippery slope" argument. Effectively, >>Diversion is about encapsulating a routing decision made at point A, and >>sending it to a downstream device. Right now, Diversion handles routing >>decisions such as call-forward-no-answer, call-forward-busy, unconditional, >>and so on. However, in practice, the logic for a call diversion can be >>arbitrarily complex. What if its some complex CPL script that caused the >>diversion? How do I represent that kind of logic? Where do we draw the line? > >If several features such as CFB, CFNA, CFTOD are defined in one CPL script, then the >script would be capable of marking any one of 3 reasons (cfb, cfna, cftod) depending on >which scenario was encountered. If the script truly has a new reason, then define a new >reason code. This argument is akin to asking how many response codes should be defined in >SIP. The answer is to define the ones that you need, and don't define any more than you >need. The insidious problem I am pointing out is that my CPL-based proxy doesn't know which of these new reason codes are used by the "policy" of some downstream voicemail server. For things to work reliably, it would need to support every single one of them that is ever defined. Of course, you would need to define lots of them to provide more and more cooler voicemail drop features. Had you instead put the voicemail logic in the same place as that proxy, you would need none. -Jonathan R. --- Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 72 Eagle Rock Ave. Chief Scientist First Floor dynamicsoft East Hanover, NJ 07936 jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 http://www.dynamicsoft.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Bryan Byerly [mailto:byerly@cisco.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 5:33 PM > To: Igor Slepchin > Cc: patrick.mourot@online.fr; sip@lists.bell-labs.com; > sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu; stlevy@cisco.com; byerly@cisco.com > Subject: [Sip-implementors] Re: [SIP] Draft about diversion > out of date > > > Hi Igor, > > I've attached an additional example of a scenario that you've > requested. > > Please see other responses inline. > > thanks for your help, > Bryan > > Igor Slepchin wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Bryan Byerly [mailto:byerly@cisco.com] > > > > > > As I presented at the December 2000 IETF, the I-D is > > > motivated by several > > > PSTN/SIP internetworking scenarios including: > > > > I'd like to see what internetworking scenarios don't work > without it. > > I've attached one such example. > > > > Multiple diversions. > > > > Hmm, these are not really supported by PSTN. Just as your > draft says, the > > only information available in ISDN parameters are the > called party and the > > redirecting number. Nowhere does PSTN remember all the > previous redirections > > like suggested by the draft. > > Actually, as the Diversion I-D points out, most ISUP and ISDN > variants support > up to 2 redirecting numbers. Could you point out the part of > the Diversion > I-D that led you to believe there could be only one? We'd > need to clarify that > section. > > > > Diverting a call to an E.164 service. > > > > What services is Diversion header required for? There are > lots of obscure > > parameters in PSTN signaling; replicating all of them in > SIP does not sound > > like a very good idea and is not necessary for internetworking. > > The Diversion I-D is focused on answering 2 questions for the > (ultimately) > called user agent: > From whom was the call diverted? > Why was the call diverted? > > Implementations of services such as voicemail and night > service frequently > require this information. > > > > Configuration issues (moving policy configuration to edges (UAs)) > > > > > > An ultimately called UAS can use the Diversion headers to > > > implement a local > > > policy for his particular service. For example, to answer > > > the question: > > > Into which voice mailbox should a message be placed? It's > > > important to > > > understand that this is a policy decision; and as such should be > > > configurable at the ultimate edge of the voice network (i.e. > > > move the smarts > > > to the edges). The examples in section 9 do cover some of > > > these issues. > > > > I find examples in section 9 rather farfetched. No company > is ever going to > > have SIP addresses that look like sip:pizza@p1.isp.com > (when was the last > > time you saw a real company with an email account at aol.com?) > > Realistically, the night service calls you mentioned will > be redirected to > > something like pizza@nightservice.com or roses@nightservice.com. > > The example shows translation of a generic keyword (pizza) > into a specific URL > as determined by the policy of the "carrier". Today's web brower > "carriers" already exhibit this type of behavior today. Try > typing "pizza" in > your web browser... I wouldn't be surprised if the topmost > hits weren't > somehow compensating the web browser "carrier". I'd imagine > that tomorrow's > VoIP carriers could base some business models off of this idea. > > Again, please also see the attached example below. Perhaps > it will seem more > realistic. > > The Diversion header is merely providing supplementary > information that cannot > always be found in any other parts of the SIP PDU. > Implementors of some > services (including voicemail and nightservice) need a consistent > (standardized) mechanism to retrieve this supplementary > information so that > they can apply policy decisions to it to affect their service > logic. The > Diversion header provides such a mechanism and does so > without creating a > configuration burden on system administrators of intermediate > gateway/routing > nodes. > > thanks again for your help, > Bryan > > Bryan J. Byerly > byerly@cisco.com > > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. --- Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 72 Eagle Rock Ave. Chief Scientist First Floor dynamicsoft East Hanover, NJ 07936 jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 http://www.dynamicsoft.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 31 10:38:50 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA26817 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 10:38:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E3484440C; Thu, 31 May 2001 10:21:07 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from dgesmtp02.wcom.com (dgesmtp02.wcom.com [199.249.16.17]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9562D4440A for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 10:20:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pmismtp01.wcomnet.com ([166.38.62.36]) by firewall.mcit.com (PMDF V5.2-33 #42261) with ESMTP id <0GE700MJ8EGJ7S@firewall.mcit.com> for sip@lists.bell-labs.com; Thu, 31 May 2001 14:19:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: from pmismtp01.wcomnet.com by pmismtp01.wcomnet.com (PMDF V5.2-33 #42258) with SMTP id <0GE700901EGBIY@pmismtp01.wcomnet.com>; Thu, 31 May 2001 14:19:31 +0000 (GMT) Received: from wcom.com ([166.44.60.136]) by pmismtp01.wcomnet.com (PMDF V5.2-33 #42258) with ESMTP id <0GE7004J2EG3Q2@pmismtp01.wcomnet.com>; Thu, 31 May 2001 14:19:16 +0000 (GMT) From: Alan Johnston Subject: Re: [SIP] Problems with multi-proxy authentication To: kbinu@hss.hns.com Cc: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Message-id: <3B164F5E.592B3DBA@wcom.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <65256A5C.0046F08C.00@sampark.hss.hns.com> Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 09:04:14 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This call flow and the supporting text was based on the expired I-D by Robert Sparks "Providing for Multiple-Proxy Authentication of a SIP Request" http://www.softarmor.com/sipwg/drafts/draft-sparks-sip-multiproxy-auth-00.txt The call flows draft is purely informational, not normative. All normative changes were to be included in bis to make this call flow work. Thanks, Alan Johnston WorldCom sip:alan.johnston@siptest.wcom.com kbinu@hss.hns.com wrote: > Hi, > > The call-flows draft shows a multi-proxy authentication scenario where a > client sends two Proxy-Authorization headers in a request message. The > Proxy-Authorization header grammar doesn't provide for multiple > Proxy-Authorization header instances in a message. Perhaps this grammar > needs to be defined differently for SIP instead of referring to the syntax > in the HTTP draft. > > The other issue is regarding proxies optionally consuming or relaying the > credentials in a message. Wouldn't this add to the complexity of proxy > implementations for figuring out when to consume and when to leave it alone > ? Wouldn't it be simpler if proxies never consumed the proxy-authorization > header and proxies expecting credentials tried out the entire list of > Proxy-Authorization headers for a match ? Also the draft currently does not > seem to specify if proxies should only check the topmost > Proxy-Authorization header if they are expecting a response to a challenge. > > -Binu > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 31 10:41:26 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA26945 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 10:41:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D91E44424; Thu, 31 May 2001 10:29:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@share.research.bell-labs.com Received: from crufty.research.bell-labs.com (crufty.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.49]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B084544336 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 16:36:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([135.104.27.211]) by crufty; Wed May 30 16:32:54 EDT 2001 Received: by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) id 84F4D44386; Wed, 30 May 2001 16:22:27 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from hotair.hobl.lucent.com (hotair.hobl.lucent.com [199.118.135.2]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id DAA7E44380 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 16:22:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 7460gratta.ho.lucent.com by hotair.hobl.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-1.5 sol2) id QAA03857; Wed, 30 May 2001 16:22:25 -0400 Message-Id: <200105302022.QAA03857@hotair.hobl.lucent.com> From: "Greg Ratta" To: sob@harvard.edu, mankin@isi.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Reply-To: gratta@lucent.com Cc: new-work@ietf.org, sip@lists.bell-labs.com, sipping@ietf.org, Yukio Hiramatsu , kmainwar@cisco.com, steve.norreys@bt.com, tsg11q6@ties.itu.ch, tsg11q11@ties.itu.ch Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Subject: [SIP] Initiation of work on interworking of BICC and ISUP with SIP Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 16:22:24 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT This message was agreed to at ITU-T Study Group 11 meeting (Geneva, May 2001) and is being transmitted on behalf of Yukio Hiramatsu, Chairman of ITU-T SG 11. For further technical clarification, contact the Rapporteur for Q6/11 (Keith Mainwaring, Tel: + 0100,0100,010046 70 605 9076, { HYPERLINK mailto:rburke@lucent.com }0100,0100,0100kmainwar@cisco.com{ HYPERLINK mailto:kmainwar@cisco.com }) or the Rapporteur for Q11/11 (Steve Norreys, Tel: +44 207 843 5189, steve.norreys@bt.com). CourierITU-T Study Group 11 has initiated a work program to define signalling requirements for the interworking of SIP with BICC (Bearer Independent Call Control) and with ISUP (ISDN User Part of Signalling System 7). It is the understanding of SG11 that the IETF will continue to focus its energy on SIP protocol development and would look to the ITU-T to develop interworking signalling requirements and protocols. SG 11 has scheduled three meetings before February 2002 to advance its efforts in this subject. A strong consensus exists among the participants of this Study Group that a common approach should be taken for both BICC and ISUP. SG 11 plans to keep the IETF informed of any requirements for extensions to SIP that may develop from its studies and looks forward to further communications as this study progresses. Greg Ratta, Vice Chairman, ITU-T SG 11, Signalling requirements and protocols Lucent Technologies Tel: +1 732 332 5174, Fax: +1 732 949 1196, gratta@lucent.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 31 10:43:17 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA27073 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 10:43:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A7BC4442C; Thu, 31 May 2001 10:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from kcmso1.proxy.att.com (kcmso1.att.com [192.128.133.69]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 789E544336; Wed, 30 May 2001 17:23:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from njb140r1.ems.att.com ([135.65.202.58]) by kcmso1.proxy.att.com (AT&T IPNS/MSO-3.0) with ESMTP id f4ULLMD18676; Wed, 30 May 2001 17:21:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from njb140bh2.ems.att.com by njb140r1.ems.att.com (8.8.8+Sun/ATTEMS-1.4.1 sol2) id RAA19071; Wed, 30 May 2001 17:20:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by njb140bh2.ems.att.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 30 May 2001 17:21:20 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Roy, Radhika R, ALCTA" To: gratta@lucent.com, sob@harvard.edu, mankin@isi.edu Cc: diffserv@ietf.org, iptel@lists.bell-labs.com, issll@mercury.lcs.mit.edu, megaco@fore.com, sip@lists.bell-labs.com, sipping@ietf.org, tsvwg@ietf.org, Yukio Hiramatsu , rbuhrke@lucent.com, tsg11q8@ties.itu.ch, tsg11q9@ties.itu.ch, ITU-SG16@mailbag.cps.INTEL.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [SIP] RE: PROPOSED JOINT ACTIVITY ON A GENERIC PROTOCOL MECHANISM FOR E ND-TO-END QOS SERVICE CONTROL Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 17:21:14 -0400 Hi, Everyone: Question Q.F/16 of ITU-T SG16 is fully dedicated for developing standards for "End-to-End QOS for Multimedia Applications". Contributions are also being under discussion in the ITU-T SG16 Brazil May 28 - June 8, 2001 meeting. Applications like H.323, SIP, H.324, H.310, and others will also be able to use this Q.F/16's QOS signaling protocol. MEGACO/H.248 and BICC will also be able to use this when specs are fully developed and, TIPHON's QOS mechanisms can also be used as one of the mechanisms for implementations. BICC and MEGCAO/H.248 are only used as the protocol between the gateways, NOT end-to-end (although SIP/H.323 or other protocols may be used between the gateways). The "End-to-End QOS for Multimedia Applications" of SG16 can also be termed as "Application Layer QOS." Q.F/16's end-to-end application layer QOS can also be implemented over the network layer QOS like RSVP, DiffServe, and/or MPLS after proper mapping. Similar is the case for the ATM network. Please note that the network layer QOS (e.g., RSVP, DiffServe, and/or MPLS) may or may not have the end-to-end significance. For example, an IP network may implement different QOS schemes in different domains (e.g., RVSP in one domain, DiffServ in another domain). However, the application layer QOS is end-to-end that remains the same. For example, an H.323 or SIP call that can traverse several IP domains where each domain may implement its own network layer QOS schemes while the H.323/SIP call carry the signaling messages and QOS parameters end-to-end independent of the underlying network layer QOS mechanisms. Let us work together. Best regards, Radhika R. Roy AT&T -----Original Message----- From: Greg Ratta [mailto:gratta@lucent.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 4:22 PM To: sob@harvard.edu; mankin@isi.edu Cc: diffserv@ietf.org; iptel@lists.bell-labs.com; issll@mercury.lcs.mit.edu; megaco@fore.com; sip@lists.bell-labs.com; sipping@ietf.org; tsvwg@ietf.org; Yukio Hiramatsu; rbuhrke@lucent.com; tsg11q8@ties.itu.ch; tsg11q9@ties.itu.ch Subject: PROPOSED JOINT ACTIVITY ON A GENERIC PROTOCOL MECHANISM FOR END-TO-END QOS SERVICE CONTROL This message was agreed to at ITU-T Study Group 11 meeting (Geneva, May 2001) and is being transmitted on behalf of Yukio Hiramatsu, Chairman of ITU-T SG 11. For further technical clarification, contact the Rapporteur for Q9/11 (Rolfe Buhrke, Tel: + 1 630 713 7022, { HYPERLINK mailto:rburke@lucent.com }rbuhrke@lucent.com) FULL TITLE: PROPOSED JOINT ACTIVITY ON A GENERIC PROTOCOL MECHANISM FOR END-TO-END QOS SERVICE CONTROL AND SIGNALLING PROTOCOL DEVELOPMENT BASED ON IP TRANSFER CAPABILITIES AND IP QOS CLASSES General Within ITU-T SG11 work has started on requirements for a generic protocol mechanism for end-to-end QoS service control. It was agreed within SG11 to proceed with this work utilising deliverables of ETSI TIPHON on end- to-end QoS service control as base material. It is the opinion of SG11 that this generic protocol mechanism for BICC intends to apply also to other protocols like SIP/SDP and H.323 next to generic extensions to the H.248/MEGACO protocol. It was noted that also QoS related work is in progress in IETF. Please find attached an initial draft of the BICC CS3 signalling requirements for end-to-end QoS service control. Please note the rationale for this activity and the framework for end-to-end QoS service control and network QoS control. The framework illustrates the field of application of the QoS handling at different levels and the different protocols involved. Proposals on end-to-end QoS service control It is proposed to start a joint activity with IETF on a generic protocol mechanism for end- to-end QoS service control. This refers to the potential work in IETF on the following topics: - Identification of the signalling requirements based on the ETSI TIPHON defined speech QoS service classes for VoIP and the signalling and control of end-to-end QoS for VoIP. The attachment provides the initial draft of the BICC CS3 signalling requirements for end-to-end QoS service control. - The definition of a generic call/bearer control mechanism in H.225/H.245, SIP/SDP and BICC CS3 for end-to-end QoS service control in the application plane. - The definition of generic extensions to H.248/MEGACO for end-to-end QoS service control between the application plane and the transport plane. - The translation between the generic protocol QoS information elements in H.248/MEGACO and the technology specific QoS parameters and QoS mechanisms in IP, ATM, MPLS, etc. Proposals on IP QoS classes and IP Transfer Capabilities ITU-T SG11 would like to inform IETF that it is investigating signalling requirements for protocol development based on the IP Transfer Capabilities and IP QoS classes, as being defined by ITU-T SG13 in Y.1541 and Y.iptc. The plan is to build upon signalling approaches developed by IETF. We would like to stress that the work on IP QoS classes and IP Transfer Capabilities by ITU-T SG13 is co- ordinated with IETF. ATTACHMENT Initial draft text of the BICC CS3 signalling requirements for end-to-end QoS service control. The ETSI specifications referenced as base material are available at the following URLs: ETSI TS 301 329 part 2, http://docbox.etsi.org/tech- org/tiphon/Document/tiphon/07- drafts/wg5/_Published/DTS05009/V1.1.1/ts_10 1329-2v111p.doc - ETSI TS 301 329 part 3 see http://docbox.etsi.org/tech- org/tiphon/Document/tiphon/07- drafts/wg5/_Published/DTS05003/DTS05003v096.zi p Further information about the ETSI TIPHON project is available at the following URL: - http://webapp.etsi.org/tbhomepage/TBDetails.as p?TB_ID=291&TB_NAME=TIPHON __________________ BICC CS3 signalling requirements for end-to- end QoS service control EDITORS' NOTE: This requirements text for end-to-end QoS service control is a first draft text and requires extensive updating based on liaison activities with other groups 1 Rationale The rationale of the BICC CS3 requirements for end-to-end service control is based on the analysis made by ETSI TIPHON (see the presentation available at the URL: http://docbox.etsi.org/tech- org/tiphon/Document/tiphon/ARCHIVES/2000/05- 200012- Kyoto/WG5%20TIPHON21%20presentation%20Rev1.ppt ). It shows the inter-relationship between the different QoS factors that finally determine the perceived speech quality by the end- users. This perceived speech quality does not only depend on network quality of service (network packet loss, network jitter and network delay) but on the terminal implementation (jitter buffers and codec performance) as well. A second rationale is that end-to-end QoS requirements can be regarded as end-to-end quality budgets related to the media flows. To achieve the required end-to-end QoS these quality budgets must be allocated between the domains, including the user equipment (see Figure 7 in ETSI TS 301 329 part 3). The Transport QoS Parameters specify the QoS budgets for each Transport Domain. It is assumed that the performance of each domain is statistically independent from any other. Therefore end-to-end QoS service control at the call control level (i.e. application plane) is required based on generic signalling procedures in protocols like BICC, SIP/SDP, H.323 and H.248/MEGACO for end-to- end QoS service control. 2 Framework for end-to-end QoS service control and network QoS control. A framework for QoS control may be considered at different levels: call control (BICC, SIP/SDP, H.323), vertical control (H.248/MEGACO, CBC), bearer control (IP BCP) and bearer (DiffServ, IntServ/RSVP or MPLS/LDP). 1) Call-control a) End-to-end QoS service control is negotiated/communicated end-to-end at the call control level. ETSI TIPHON has defined a set of speech QoS classes, and signalling requirements and flows for this purpose. The idea is that call control protocols are enhanced with a generic end-to-end QoS service control mechanism to negotiate these speech QoS classes and associated parameters (Maximum delay, Maximum packet delay variation, Maximum packet loss, Peak bit rate and Maximum packet size). Such a generic end-to-end QoS service control mechanism should be defined independent of the underlying technology (ATM or IP) and operate across network domains and including terminal characteristics to negotiate/communicate the requested listener speech quality that will be perceived by the end-users (i.e. "mouth-to-ear"). b) BICC (Q.190x) is one of the call control protocols that may be enhanced this way. Similar enhancements may be applicable to other call-control protocols like SIP/SDP and H.323. 2) Vertical control a) QoS service control is also negotiated/communicated at the vertical control level. The ETSI TIPHON defined signalling requirements and flows include the vertical interface. The idea is that vertical control protocols are enhanced to negotiate/communicate the QoS settings (Maximum delay, Maximum packet delay variation, Maximum packet loss, Peak bit rate and Maximum packet size) in the bearer core network based on generic H.248/MEGACO extensions. These QoS settings should be defined independent of the underlying technology (ATM or IP) of the bearer core network. b) CBC (Q.1950) is one of the vertical control protocols that may be enhanced this way. 3) Bearer control a) Network QoS is negotiated/communicated at the bearer control level. ATM signalling does already intrinsically support network QoS. SG13 has recently defined IP QoS classes and IP Transfer Capabilities. The idea is that bearer control protocols for IP are enhanced with a mechanism to negotiate the network QoS by using IP QoS classes and IP Transfer Capabilities. b) IP BCP (Q.1970) is an IP bearer control protocol that may be enhanced this way. 4) Bearer a) Network QoS is negotiated/communicated at the bearer level, i.e. as part of the protocols associated with the bearers in the core network. The idea is that IP QoS classes and IP Transfer Capabilties, as defined by SG13, are used to differentiate between different types of IP traffic. b) IP QoS classes and IP Transfer Capabilities may be used to enhance existing IP mechanisms like DiffServ, IntServ/RSVP and MPLS/LDP. 3 QoS information flows applicable to BICC A general model is considered for QoS information flows with BICC when making a translation of the relevant parts in Figure 8 in ETSI TS 301 329 part 3. Section 4 details the Q.BICC related QoS primitives and parameters based on the QoS primitives and parameters in the ETSI deliverable. Similarly, section 5 provides the Q.CBC related QoS primitives and parameters. 4 Q.BICC related QoS primitives and parameters The Q.BICC related QoS primitives and parameters are extracted from clause 8.1 and clause 8.2 of ETSI TS 101 329 part 3. 4.1 Q.BICC related QoS primitives This information flow (QC2 in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3) communicates the QoS related bearer information between the domains of different service providers. Q.BICC QoS request (Qbicc.QoSreq) requests the establishment of a bearer conforming to a particular ETSI TIPHON Class of Service or with defined QoS characteristics. NOTE Identical to QoSM request (QC2.QoSMreq) in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.1.1. Q.BICC QoS confirm (Qbicc.QoSconf) acknowledges the creation of a bearer conforming to a requested ETSI TIPHON QoS Class or with specified QoS characteristics. NOTE Identical to QoSM confirm (QC2.QoSMconf) in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.1.1. Q.BICC QoS reject (Qbicc.QoSrej) rejects the creation of a bearer conforming to a requested ETSI TIPHON QoS Class or with specified QoS characteristics. NOTE Identical to QoSM reject (QC2.QoSMrej) in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.1.1. Q.BICC release request (Qbicc.QoSrelreq) requests the release of a bearer. NOTE Identical to QoSM release request (QC2.QoSMrelreq) in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.1.1 and the release of a transport flow is already covered by existing Q.BICC procedures in Q.1902 series. QoSM release confirm (Qbicc.QoSrelconf) confirms the release of a bearer. NOTE Identical to QoSM release confirm (QC2.QoSMrelconf) in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.1.1 and the release of a transport flow is already covered by existing Q.BICC procedures in Q.1902 series. 4.2 Q.BICC related QoS parameters Table 1 lists the parameters used in the Q.BICC related QoS primitives not yet covered by the Q.BICC protocol. The deleted items refer to the information elements already covered by the BICC CS2 protocol in the Q.1902 series. NOTE The contents of Table 1 is an interpretation of the table in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.2.3. Table 1: Identification of Q.BICC related parameters for end-to-end QoS service control Qbicc.QoSreq QoS Service Class Optional Codec Type and Packetisation Mandatory Transport QoS Parameters Mandatory Traffic Descriptor Optional Transport Addresses Mandatory Application Data Transport Protocol Optional [Default RTP] Packet Transport Protocol Optional [Default UDP] QoS Mechanism Optional Qbicc.QoSconf QoS Service Class Optional Codec Type and Packetisation Mandatory Transport QoS Parameters Mandatory Transport Addresses Mandatory Application Data Transport Protocol Optional [Default RTP] Packet Transport Protocol Optional [Default UDP] Qbicc.QoSrej Reason [TBD] Mandatory 5 Q.CBC related QoS primitives and parameters The Q.CBC related QoS primitives and parameters are extracted from clause 8.1 and clause 8.2 of ETSI TS 101 329 part 3. 5.1 Q.CBC related QoS primitives This information flow (QT2 in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3) communicates the QoS related transport flow information between a service domain and an associated transport domain. This information contains the QoS related characteristics required of the transport flows that will carry the media flow and the properties of the media flow. Q.CBC QoS request (Qcbc.QoSreq) requests the establishment of a transport flow with defined QoS characteristics across a Transport Domain or the reservation of Transport Domain resource. NOTE Identical to TRM QoS request (QT2.TRMQreq) in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.1.3. Q.CBC QoS confirm (Qcbc.QoSconf) acknowledges the creation of a requested transport flow or the reservation of Transport Domain resource. NOTE Identical to TRM QoS confirm (QT2.TRMQconf) in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.1.3. Q.CBC QoS reject (Qcbc.QoSrej) rejects the creation of a requested transport flow or the reservation of Transport Domain resource. NOTE Identical to TRM QoS reject (QT2.TRMQrej) in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.1.3. Q.CBC QoS release request (Qcbc.QoSrelreq) requests the release of a transport flow. NOTE Identical to TRM QoS release request (QT2.TRM QoS relreq) in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.1.3. The release of a transport flow is already covered by the existing Q.CBC procedures in Q.1950. Q.CBC QoS release confirm (Qcbc.QoSrelconf) confirms the release of a transport flow. NOTE Identical to TRM QoS release confirm (QT2.TRM QoS relconf) in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.1.3. The release of a transport flow is already covered by the existing Q.CBC procedures in Q.1950. Q.CBC QoS performance notification (Qcbc.QoSperfnotif) notifies the Service Domain of the performance of the Transport Domain in meeting the requested QoS levels. This may be a periodic event or an urgent alarm. Note: this primitive is a management primitive and its use is for further study. NOTE Identical to TRM QoS performance notification (QT2.TRM QoS perfnotif) in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.1.3. For further study. 5.2 Q.CBC related QoS parameters Table 2 lists the parameters used in the Q.CBC related QoS primitives not yet covered by the Q.CBC protocol. The deleted items refer to the information elements already covered by the BICC CS2 protocol in Q.1950. NOTE The contents of Table 2 is an interpretation of the table in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.2.5. Table 2: Identification of Q.CBC related parameters for end-to-end QoS service control QT2.TRMQreq Transport QoS Parameters Mandatory Traffic Descriptor Mandatory Transport Addresses Mandatory Packet Transport Protocol Optional [Default UDP] QT2.TRMQconf Transport QoS Parameters Mandatory Transport Addresses Mandatory Packet Transport Protocol Optional [Default UDP] QoS Mechanism Optional QT2.TRMQrej Reason [TBD] Mandatory 6 Parameter contents Table 3 specifies the information to be covered by the parameters listed in sections 4.2 and 5.2 based on the QoS parameter groups in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.2.1. Table 3: Identification of parameter contents for end-to-end QoS service control QoS Service Class Describes the end-to-end ETSI TIPHON Best, High, Medium class of a beareror Best Effort Transport QoS Specifies the QoS characteristics Maximum Delay Parameters required of the transport flow carrying the media flow. Maximum Packet Delay Variation Maximum Packet Loss Traffic Descriptor Characterises the resource Peak Bit requirements of an application data flow (excludes transport flow Maximum Packet Size resource requirements). Parameters specifying the ETSI TIPHON QoS Class as defined in ETSI TS 101 329 Part 2 The maximum delay permitted (ms) over either a segment of the transport flow or the remaining part of the transport flow. The maximum packet delay variation permitted (ms) over either a segment of the transport flow or the remaining part of the transport flow. The maximum packet loss permitted (%) over either a segment of the transport flow or the remaining part of the transport flow. [N.B. This measure assumes randomly distributed packet loss] Maximum bit rate (bit/s) of the media flow. Maximum size of the media packets 7 Information flows and signalling procedures for end-to-end QoS service control EDITORS' NOTE The information flows and signalling procedures for end-to-end QoS service control may be considered to follow the same principles as the already existing procedures for end-to-end codec negotiation in BICC CS1 and BICC CS2. Similarly mid-call procedures for end-to-end QoS modification and mid-call QoS modification may be considered because the perceived QoS is highly related to the codec type employed end- to-end as part of the connection. The exact scope and properties of these procedures and protocol message flows needs further discussion. Greg Ratta, Vice Chairman, ITU-T SG 11, Signalling requirements and protocols Lucent Technologies Tel: +1 732 332 5174, Fax: +1 732 949 1196, gratta@lucent.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 31 10:44:43 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA27113 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 10:44:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 777C94443E; Thu, 31 May 2001 10:29:32 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from tnt.isi.edu (tnt.isi.edu [128.9.128.128]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9C0B44336; Wed, 30 May 2001 19:39:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gra.isi.edu (gra.isi.edu [128.9.160.133]) by tnt.isi.edu (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id f4UNdHZ03453; Wed, 30 May 2001 16:39:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Braden Received: (from braden@localhost) by gra.isi.edu (8.8.7/8.8.6) id XAA13198; Wed, 30 May 2001 23:39:17 GMT Message-Id: <200105302339.XAA13198@gra.isi.edu> To: gratta@lucent.com, sob@harvard.edu, mankin@ISI.EDU, rrroy@att.com Cc: diffserv@ietf.org, iptel@lists.bell-labs.com, issll@mercury.lcs.mit.edu, megaco@fore.com, sip@lists.bell-labs.com, sipping@ietf.org, tsvwg@ietf.org, hiramatsu.yukio@lab.ntt.co.jp, rbuhrke@lucent.com, tsg11q8@ties.itu.ch, tsg11q9@ties.itu.ch, ITU-SG16@mailbag.cps.INTEL.COM X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Subject: [SIP] RE: PROPOSED JOINT ACTIVITY ON A GENERIC PROTOCOL MECHANISM FOR E ND-TO-END QOS SERVICE CONTROL Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 23:39:17 GMT *> From owner-issll@mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed May 30 14:59:58 2001 *> From: "Roy, Radhika R, ALCTA" *> To: gratta@lucent.com, sob@harvard.edu, mankin@ISI.EDU *> Cc: diffserv@ietf.org, iptel@lists.bell-labs.com, issll@mercury.lcs.mit.edu, *> megaco@fore.com, sip@lists.bell-labs.com, sipping@ietf.org, tsvwg@ietf.org, *> Yukio Hiramatsu *> , rbuhrke@lucent.com, *> tsg11q8@ties.itu.ch, tsg11q9@ties.itu.ch, ITU-SG16@mailbag.cps.INTEL.COM *> Subject: RE: PROPOSED JOINT ACTIVITY ON A GENERIC PROTOCOL MECHANISM FOR E *> ND-TO-END QOS SERVICE CONTROL *> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 17:21:14 -0400 *> MIME-Version: 1.0 *> *> Hi, Everyone: *> *> Question Q.F/16 of ITU-T SG16 is fully dedicated for developing standards *> for "End-to-End QOS for Multimedia Applications". Contributions are also *> being under discussion in the ITU-T SG16 Brazil May 28 - June 8, 2001 *> meeting. This is very confusing. "End-to-End QOS for Multimedia Applications" is an really important topic, but this topic must be a superset of "End-to-End QOS signaling". There are much harder problems than signaling in providing E2E QoS. Can you explain how signaling relates to the title of this working party? Thanks, Bob Braden *> *> Applications like H.323, SIP, H.324, H.310, and others will also be able to *> use this Q.F/16's QOS signaling protocol. MEGACO/H.248 and BICC will also be *> able to use this when specs are fully developed and, TIPHON's QOS mechanisms *> can also be used as one of the mechanisms for implementations. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 31 10:47:17 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA27198 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 10:47:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D89144445; Thu, 31 May 2001 10:29:40 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from smtp2.phl.com (smtp2.phl.com [151.209.112.70]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 635DB44336 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 00:01:01 -0400 (EDT) To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.3 March 21, 2000 Message-ID: From: ravshiv@pgsolutions.com X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on PHLSMTPMTA/Phoenix Home Life Mutual Insurance(Release 5.0.5 |September 22, 2000) at 05/31/2001 12:01:02 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [SIP] questions Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 09:29:24 +0530 hi, I want to know how SIP requests will traverse more than one Proxy wihle reaching the destination, What happens if the second proxy server inserts the record route header to the request. please give me a clarification regarding this if possible with an example. Thanks Ravi.B.S. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 31 10:50:13 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA27280 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 10:50:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A27F44444D; Thu, 31 May 2001 10:29:48 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from cisco.com (nordic.cisco.com [64.103.48.45]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16C5E44336 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 04:18:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from KMAINWAR-W2K.cisco.com (ams-vpdn-client-485.cisco.com [144.254.47.233]) by cisco.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA10128; Thu, 31 May 2001 10:17:54 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010531095312.00b67270@nordic.cisco.com> X-Sender: kmainwar@nordic.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 To: gratta@lucent.com From: Keith Mainwaring Cc: sob@harvard.edu, mankin@isi.edu, new-work@ietf.org, sip@lists.bell-labs.com, sipping@ietf.org, Yukio Hiramatsu , steve.norreys@bt.com, tsg11q6@ties.itu.ch, tsg11q11@ties.itu.ch In-Reply-To: <200105302022.QAA03857@hotair.hobl.lucent.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_7210898==_.ALT" Subject: [SIP] Re: Initiation of work on interworking of BICC and ISUP with SIP Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 10:19:40 +0200 --=====================_7210898==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I should just like to clarify the background to this "message". It was generated in the final minutes of the SG 11 closing plenary after completion of working party reports and liaison statements when many delegates, myself included, had left for the airport and not during the discussions of Questions 6, 9 and 11. With regard to the final paragraph, there was no agreement during the joint question 6 and 9 activity on SIP interworking that SG 11 would work on identifying requirements for extensions to SIP. The second sentence of the first paragraph also presumes too much. Keith Mainwaring, Q6/11 Rapporteur. At 16:22 30/05/2001 -0400, Greg Ratta wrote: >This message was agreed to at ITU-T Study Group 11 meeting (Geneva, May >2001) and is being transmitted on behalf of Yukio Hiramatsu, Chairman of >ITU-T SG 11. For further technical clarification, contact the Rapporteur >for Q6/11 (Keith Mainwaring, Tel: + 46 70 605 9076, { HYPERLINK >mailto:rburke@lucent.com }kmainwar@cisco.com{ >HYPERLINK mailto:kmainwar@cisco.com }) or the >Rapporteur for Q11/11 (Steve Norreys, Tel: +44 207 843 5189, >steve.norreys@bt.com). > >ITU-T Study Group 11 has initiated a work program to define signalling >requirements for the interworking of SIP with BICC (Bearer Independent >Call Control) and with ISUP (ISDN User Part of Signalling System 7). It >is the understanding of SG11 that the IETF will continue to focus its >energy on SIP protocol development and would look to the ITU-T to develop >interworking signalling requirements and protocols. > >SG 11 has scheduled three meetings before February 2002 to advance its >efforts in this subject. A strong consensus exists among the participants >of this Study Group that a common approach should be taken for both BICC >and ISUP. > >SG 11 plans to keep the IETF informed of any requirements for extensions >to SIP that may develop from its studies and looks forward to further >communications as this study progresses. > > > >Greg Ratta, Vice Chairman, ITU-T SG 11, Signalling requirements and protocols > >Lucent Technologies Tel: +1 732 332 5174, Fax: +1 732 949 1196, >gratta@lucent.com --=====================_7210898==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" I should just like to clarify the background to this "message". It was generated in the final minutes of the SG 11 closing plenary after completion of working party reports and liaison statements when many delegates, myself included, had left for the airport and not during the discussions of Questions 6, 9 and 11. With regard to the final paragraph, there was no agreement during the joint question 6 and 9 activity on SIP interworking that SG 11 would work on identifying requirements for extensions to SIP. The second sentence of the first paragraph also presumes too much.

Keith Mainwaring, Q6/11 Rapporteur.

At 16:22 30/05/2001 -0400, Greg Ratta wrote:
This message was agreed to at ITU-T Study Group 11 meeting (Geneva, May 2001) and is being transmitted on behalf of Yukio Hiramatsu, Chairman of ITU-T SG 11. For further technical clarification, contact the Rapporteur for Q6/11 (Keith Mainwaring, Tel: + 46 70 605 9076, { HYPERLINK mailto:rburke@lucent.com }kmainwar@cisco.com{ HYPERLINK mailto:kmainwar@cisco.com }) or the Rapporteur for Q11/11 (Steve Norreys, Tel: +44 207 843 5189, steve.norreys@bt.com).

ITU-T Study Group 11 has initiated a work program to define signalling requirements for the interworking of SIP with BICC (Bearer Independent Call Control) and with ISUP (ISDN User Part of Signalling System 7).  It is the understanding of SG11 that the IETF will continue to focus its energy on SIP protocol development and would look to the ITU-T to develop interworking signalling requirements and protocols.

SG 11 has scheduled three meetings before February 2002 to advance its efforts in this subject.  A strong consensus exists among the participants of this Study Group that a common approach should be taken for both BICC and ISUP.

SG 11 plans to keep the IETF informed of any requirements for extensions to SIP that may develop from its studies and looks forward to further communications as this study progresses. 



Greg Ratta, Vice Chairman, ITU-T SG 11, Signalling requirements and protocols 

Lucent Technologies Tel: +1 732 332 5174, Fax: +1 732 949 1196, gratta@lucent.com </blockquote></x-html>
--=====================_7210898==_.ALT-- _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 31 10:56:01 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id KAA27426 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 10:56:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98FD944454; Thu, 31 May 2001 10:29:57 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from cs.columbia.edu (cs.columbia.edu [128.59.16.20]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E278344336 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 09:10:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bart.cs.columbia.edu (bart.cs.columbia.edu [128.59.19.191]) by cs.columbia.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA08634; Thu, 31 May 2001 09:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cs.columbia.edu (bart.cs.columbia.edu [128.59.19.191]) by bart.cs.columbia.edu (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA05564; Thu, 31 May 2001 09:10:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B16426D.F7BADA0A@cs.columbia.edu> From: Henning Schulzrinne X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD BA45DSL (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Keith Mainwaring Cc: gratta@lucent.com, sob@harvard.edu, mankin@isi.edu, new-work@ietf.org, sip@lists.bell-labs.com, sipping@ietf.org, Yukio Hiramatsu , steve.norreys@bt.com, tsg11q6@ties.itu.ch, tsg11q11@ties.itu.ch References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010531095312.00b67270@nordic.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [SIP] Re: [Sipping] Re: Initiation of work on interworking of BICC and ISUP withSIP Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 09:09:01 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Also, I assume that the relevant parties are aware of the IETF efforts in SIP-to-ISUP interworking (draft-ietf-sip-isup, et al.). The message below does not seem to indicate this ("would look to the ITU-T to develop interworking signalling requirements and protocols.") Keith Mainwaring wrote: > > I should just like to clarify the background to this "message". It was > generated in the final minutes of the SG 11 closing plenary after > completion of working party reports and liaison statements when many > delegates, myself included, had left for the airport and not during > the discussions of Questions 6, 9 and 11. With regard to the final > paragraph, there was no agreement during the joint question 6 and 9 > activity on SIP interworking that SG 11 would work on identifying > requirements for extensions to SIP. The second sentence of the first > paragraph also presumes too much. > > Keith Mainwaring, Q6/11 Rapporteur. > > At 16:22 30/05/2001 -0400, Greg Ratta wrote: > > > This message was agreed to at ITU-T Study Group 11 meeting (Geneva, > > May 2001) and is being transmitted on behalf of Yukio Hiramatsu, > > Chairman of ITU-T SG 11. For further technical clarification, > > contact the Rapporteur for Q6/11 (Keith Mainwaring, Tel: + 46 70 605 > > 9076, { HYPERLINK mailto:rburke@lucent.com }kmainwar@cisco.com{ > > HYPERLINK mailto:kmainwar@cisco.com }) or the Rapporteur for Q11/11 > > (Steve Norreys, Tel: +44 207 843 5189, steve.norreys@bt.com). > > > > ITU-T Study Group 11 has initiated a work program to define > > signalling requirements for the interworking of SIP with BICC > > (Bearer Independent Call Control) and with ISUP (ISDN User Part of > > Signalling System 7). It is the understanding of SG11 that the IETF > > will continue to focus its energy on SIP protocol development and > > would look to the ITU-T to develop interworking signalling > > requirements and protocols. > > > > SG 11 has scheduled three meetings before February 2002 to advance > > its efforts in this subject. A strong consensus exists among the > > participants of this Study Group that a common approach should be > > taken for both BICC and ISUP. > > > > SG 11 plans to keep the IETF informed of any requirements for > > extensions to SIP that may develop from its studies and looks > > forward to further communications as this study progresses. > > > > > > > > Greg Ratta, Vice Chairman, ITU-T SG 11, Signalling requirements and protocols > > > > Lucent Technologies Tel: +1 732 332 5174, Fax: +1 732 949 1196, gratta@lucent.com > > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 31 11:00:57 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA27589 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 11:00:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6215443C9; Thu, 31 May 2001 10:56:10 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EB04444BA for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 10:48:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id KAA09350; Thu, 31 May 2001 10:52:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 31 May 2001 10:48:24 -0400 Message-ID: <9BF66EBF6BEFD942915B4D4D45C051F314A855@DYN-TX-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com> From: Robert Sparks To: "'Christian Jansson'" , kbinu@hss.hns.com, sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] Problems with multi-proxy authentication MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 10:48:22 -0400 > -----Original Message----- > From: Christian Jansson [mailto:christian@hotsip.com] > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 10:05 AM > To: kbinu@hss.hns.com; sip@lists.bell-labs.com > Subject: Re: [SIP] Problems with multi-proxy authentication > > > Some questions on the multi-proxy authentication scenario from > draft-ietf-sip-call-flows-03.txt: > > How should the UAC figure out that the second 407 is from > another server > than the first 407 came from, and not that the credentials > sent to Proxy1 > were wrong? In both cases the UAC sends the INVITE with the same > Request-URI I assume, and because the realm could be any text string, > both servers could have realm="SIP-Proxy". So what is the significant > difference that makes the UAC add two Proxy-Authorization headers > to the INVITE. Proxies in different Realms (administrative domains) need to be sure they provide unique realm strings. This is the key the _end user_ needs to differentiate the source of challenges. > > Another question is about the description of > Proxy-Authenticate.The last > sentence states that: "The server responds with 401 > (Unauthorized) if the > client guessed wrong". And the description for WWW-Authenticate states > that: "the WWW-Authenticate response-header MUST be included in 401". > But the handling of WWW-Authenticate seems to be totally > different as it is > based on the To header while Proxy-Authenticate handling is > based on the > Request-Uri. So how is a UAC supposed to handle this? Where do you get the idea that WWW-Authenticate is based on a To: header? > > I also think that the description of Proxy-Authenticate is a > bit strange as > it > talks a lot about the UAC "contacting a specific proxy > server". Since when > did a SIP UAC actually know that it was going to contact a > proxy server > and not a UAS, or a redirect server? > > Christian Jansson > Hotsip > www.hotsip.com > > > The call-flows draft shows a multi-proxy authentication > scenario where a > > client sends two Proxy-Authorization headers in a request > message. The > > Proxy-Authorization header grammar doesn't provide for multiple > > Proxy-Authorization header instances in a message. Perhaps > this grammar > > needs to be defined differently for SIP instead of > referring to the syntax > > in the HTTP draft. > > > > The other issue is regarding proxies optionally consuming > or relaying the > > credentials in a message. Wouldn't this add to the > complexity of proxy > > implementations for figuring out when to consume and when > to leave it > alone > > ? Wouldn't it be simpler if proxies never consumed the > proxy-authorization > > header and proxies expecting credentials tried out the > entire list of > > Proxy-Authorization headers for a match ? Also the draft > currently does > not > > seem to specify if proxies should only check the topmost > > Proxy-Authorization header if they are expecting a response to a > challenge. > > > > -Binu > > > > _______________________________________________ > This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. > The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, > and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. > To subscribe to it, send mail to > sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 31 11:07:59 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA27885 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 11:07:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 162C944434; Thu, 31 May 2001 10:29:24 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from sj-msg-core-4.cisco.com (sj-msg-core-4.cisco.com [171.71.163.10]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CA7044336; Wed, 30 May 2001 18:31:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FRED-W2K.cisco.com (fred-hm-dhcp3.cisco.com [171.69.128.118]) by sj-msg-core-4.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id f4UMUBU11655; Wed, 30 May 2001 15:30:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20010530152432.043b8ec0@mira-sjcm-2.cisco.com> X-Sender: fred@mira-sjcm-2.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 To: gratta@lucent.com From: Fred Baker Cc: sob@harvard.edu, mankin@isi.edu, diffserv@ietf.org, iptel@lists.bell-labs.com, issll@mercury.lcs.mit.edu, megaco@fore.com, sip@lists.bell-labs.com, sipping@ietf.org, tsvwg@ietf.org, Yukio Hiramatsu , rbuhrke@lucent.com, tsg11q8@ties.itu.ch, tsg11q9@ties.itu.ch, John C Klensin , chair@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <200105302022.QAA03855@hotair.hobl.lucent.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [SIP] Re: PROPOSED JOINT ACTIVITY ON A GENERIC PROTOCOL MECHANISM FOR END-TO-END QOS SERVICE CONTROL Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 15:30:00 -0700 Greg: The URLs in this note were all sent with what the ETSI machine considered to be 'malformed syntax'. Could you resend the correct URLs? Fred _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 31 11:10:51 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA28024 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 11:10:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F36E44463; Thu, 31 May 2001 10:31:08 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@share.research.bell-labs.com Received: from crufty.research.bell-labs.com (crufty.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.49]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B6A2344336 for ; Wed, 30 May 2001 16:50:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([135.104.27.211]) by crufty; Wed May 30 16:46:04 EDT 2001 Received: by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) id 0314944380; Wed, 30 May 2001 16:22:28 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from hotair.hobl.lucent.com (hotair.hobl.lucent.com [199.118.135.2]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0575844384; Wed, 30 May 2001 16:22:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 7460gratta.ho.lucent.com by hotair.hobl.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-1.5 sol2) id QAA03855; Wed, 30 May 2001 16:22:23 -0400 Message-Id: <200105302022.QAA03855@hotair.hobl.lucent.com> From: "Greg Ratta" To: sob@harvard.edu, mankin@isi.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable Reply-To: gratta@lucent.com Cc: diffserv@ietf.org, iptel@lists.bell-labs.com, issll@mercury.lcs.mit.edu, megaco@fore.com, sip@lists.bell-labs.com, sipping@ietf.org, tsvwg@ietf.org, Yukio Hiramatsu , rbuhrke@lucent.com, tsg11q8@ties.itu.ch, tsg11q9@ties.itu.ch Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Subject: [SIP] PROPOSED JOINT ACTIVITY ON A GENERIC PROTOCOL MECHANISM FOR END-TO-END QOS SERVICE CONTROL Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 16:22:23 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-printable This message was agreed to at ITU-T Study Group 11 meeting (Geneva, May 2001) and is being transmitted on behalf of Yukio Hiramatsu, Chairman of ITU-T SG 11. For further technical clarification, contact the Rapporteur for Q9/11 (Rolfe Buhrke, Tel: + 1 630 713 7022, { HYPERLINK mailto:rburke@lucent.com }rbuhrke@lucent.com) FULL TITLE: Times New RomanPROPOSED JOINT ACTI= VITY ON A GENERIC PROTOCOL MECHANISM FOR END-TO-END QOS SERVICE CONTROL AND 0100,0100,0100SIGNALLING PROTOCOL DEVELO= PMENT BASED ON IP TRANSFER CAPABILITIES AND IP QOS CLASSES rightCourier NewGene= ral rightWithin ITU-T SG11 work has started on requirements for a generic protocol mechanism for end-to-end QoS service control. It was agreed within SG11 to proceed with this work utilising deliverables of ETSI TIPHON on end- to-end QoS service control as base material. It is the opinion of SG11 that this generic protocol mechanism for BICC intends to apply also to other protocols like SIP/SDP and H.323 next to generic extensions to the H.248/MEGACO protocol. rightIt was noted that also QoS related work is= in progress in IETF. Please find attached an initial draft of the BICC CS3 signalling requirements for end-to-end QoS service control. Please note the rationale for this activity and the framework for end-to-end QoS service control and network QoS control. The framework illustrates the field of application of the QoS handling at different levels and the different protocols involved. rightProposals on end-to-end QoS service contro= l rightIt is proposed to start a joint activity w= ith IETF on a generic protocol mechanism for end- to-end QoS service control. This refers to the potential work in IETF on the following topics: right- Identification of the signalling requirements based on the ETSI TIPHON defined speech QoS service classes for VoIP and the signalling and control of end-to-end QoS for VoIP. The attachment provides the initial draft of the BICC CS3 signalling requirements for end-to-end QoS service control. right- The definition of a generic call/bearer control mechanism in H.225/H.245, SIP/SDP and BICC CS3 for end-to-end QoS service control in the application plane. right- The definition of generic extensions to H.248/MEGACO for end-to-end QoS service control between the application plane and the transport plane. right- The translation between the generic protocol QoS information elements in H.248/MEGACO and the technology specific QoS parameters and QoS mechanisms in IP, ATM, MPLS, etc. rightProposals on IP QoS classes and IP Transfe= r Capabilities rightITU-T SG11 would like to inform IETF that = it is investigating signalling requirements for protocol development based on the IP Transfer Capabilities and IP QoS classes, as being defined by ITU-T SG13 in Y.1541 and Y.iptc. The plan is to build upon signalling approaches developed by IETF. We would like to stress that the work on IP QoS classes and IP Transfer Capabilities by ITU-T SG13 is co- ordinated with IETF. rightATTACHMENT Initial draft text of the BICC CS3 signalling requirements for end-to-end QoS service control. rightThe ETSI specifications referenced as base= material are available at the following URLs: outETSI TS 301 329 part 2, http://docbox.etsi.org/tech- org/tiphon/Document/tiphon/07- drafts/wg5/_Published/DTS05009/V1.1.1/ts_10 1329-2v111p.doc right- ETSI TS 301 329 part 3 see http://docbox.etsi.org/tech- org/tiphon/Document/tiphon/07- drafts/wg5/_Published/DTS05003/DTS05003v096.zi p rightFurther information about the ETSI TIPHON project is available at the following URL: right- http://webapp.etsi.org/tbhomepage/TBDetails.as p?TB_ID=3D291&TB_NAME=3DTIPHON right__________________ rightBICC CS3 signalling requirements for end-t= o- end QoS service control rightEDITORS=92 NOTE: This requirements text fo= r end-to-end QoS service control is a first draft text and requires extensive updating based on liaison activities with other groups right1 Rationale rightThe rationale of the BICC CS3 requirements= for end-to-end service control is based on the analysis made by ETSI TIPHON (see the presentation available at the URL: http://docbox.etsi.org/tech- org/tiphon/Document/tiphon/ARCHIVES/2000/05- 200012- Kyoto/WG5%20TIPHON21%20presentation%20Rev1.ppt ). It shows the inter-relationship between the different QoS factors that finally determine rightthe perceived speech quality by the end- users. This perceived speech quality does not only depend on network quality of service (network packet loss, network jitter and network delay) but on the terminal implementation (jitter buffers and codec performance) as well. right rightA second rationale is that end-to-end QoS requirements can be regarded as end-to-end quality budgets related to the media flows. To achieve the required end-to-end QoS these quality budgets must be allocated between the domains, including the user equipment (see Figure 7 in ETSI TS 301 329 part 3). The Transport QoS Parameters specify the QoS budgets for each Transport Domain. It is assumed that the performance of each domain is statistically independent from any other. right rightTherefore end-to-end QoS service control a= t the call control level (i.e. application plane) is required based on generic signalling procedures in protocols like BICC, SIP/SDP, H.323 and H.248/MEGACO for end-to- end QoS service control. right2 Framework for end-to-end QoS service control and network QoS control. rightA framework for QoS control may be conside= red at different levels: call control (BICC, SIP/SDP, H.323), vertical control (H.248/MEGACO, CBC), bearer control (IP BCP) and bearer (DiffServ, IntServ/RSVP or MPLS/LDP). right1) Call-control righta) End-to-end QoS service control is negotiated/communicated end-to-end at the call control level. ETSI TIPHON has defined a set of speech QoS classes, and signalling requirements and flows for this purpose. rightThe idea is that call control protocols ar= e enhanced with a generic end-to-end QoS service control mechanism to negotiate these speech QoS classes and associated parameters (Maximum delay, Maximum packet delay variation, Maximum packet loss, Peak bit rate and Maximum packet size). rightSuch a generic end-to-end QoS service cont= rol mechanism should be defined independent of the underlying technology (ATM or IP) and operate across network domains and including terminal characteristics to negotiate/communicate the requested listener speech quality that will be perceived by the end-users (i.e. "mouth-to-ear"). rightb) BICC (Q.190x) is one of the call contro= l protocols that may be enhanced this way. Similar enhancements may be applicable to other call-control protocols like SIP/SDP and H.323. right2) Vertical control righta) QoS service control is also negotiated/communicated at the vertical control level. The ETSI TIPHON defined signalling requirements and flows include the vertical interface. The idea is that vertical control protocols are enhanced to negotiate/communicate the QoS settings (Maximum delay, Maximum packet delay variation, Maximum packet loss, Peak bit rate and Maximum packet size) in the bearer core network based on generic H.248/MEGACO extensions. rightThese QoS settings should be defined independent of the underlying technology (ATM or IP) of the bearer core network. rightb) CBC (Q.1950) is one of the vertical control protocols that may be enhanced this way. right3) Bearer control righta) Network QoS is negotiated/communicated = at the bearer control level. ATM signalling does already intrinsically support network QoS. SG13 has recently defined IP QoS classes and IP Transfer Capabilities. rightThe idea is that bearer control protocols = for IP are enhanced with a mechanism to negotiate the network QoS by using IP QoS classes and IP Transfer Capabilities. rightb) IP BCP (Q.1970) is an IP bearer control= protocol that may be enhanced this way. right4) Bearer righta) Network QoS is negotiated/communicated = at the bearer level, i.e. as part of the protocols associated with the bearers in the core network. The idea is that IP QoS classes and IP Transfer Capabilties, as defined by SG13, are used to differentiate between different types of IP traffic. rightb) IP QoS classes and IP Transfer Capabilities may be used to enhance existing IP mechanisms like DiffServ, IntServ/RSVP and MPLS/LDP. right right3 QoS information flows applicable to BICC= rightA general model is considered for QoS information flows with BICC when making a translation of the relevant parts in Figure 8 in ETSI TS 301 329 part 3. right rightSection 4 details the Q.BICC related QoS primitives and parameters based on the QoS primitives and parameters in the ETSI deliverable. Similarly, section 5 provides the Q.CBC related QoS primitives and parameters. right4 Q.BICC related QoS primitives and parame= ters rightThe Q.BICC related QoS primitives and parameters are extracted from clause 8.1 and clause 8.2 of ETSI TS 101 329 part 3. right4.1 Q.BICC related QoS primitives rightThis information flow (QC2 in ETSI TS 101 = 329 part 3) communicates the QoS related bearer information between the domains of different service providers. rightQ.BICC QoS request (Qbicc.QoSreq) requests= the establishment of a bearer conforming to a particular ETSI TIPHON Class of Service or with defined QoS characteristics. rightNOTE Identical to QoSM request (QC2.QoSMre= q) in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.1.1. rightQ.BICC QoS confirm (Qbicc.QoSconf) acknowledges the creation of a bearer conforming to a requested ETSI TIPHON QoS Class or with specified QoS characteristics. rightNOTE Identical to QoSM confirm (QC2.QoSMconf) in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.1.1. rightQ.BICC QoS reject (Qbicc.QoSrej) rejects t= he creation of a bearer conforming to a requested ETSI TIPHON QoS Class or with specified QoS characteristics. rightNOTE Identical to QoSM reject (QC2.QoSMrej= ) in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.1.1. rightQ.BICC release request (Qbicc.QoSrelreq) requests the release of a bearer. rightNOTE Identical to QoSM release request (QC2.QoSMrelreq) in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.1.1 and the release of a transport flow is already covered by existing Q.BICC procedures in Q.1902 series. rightQoSM release confirm (Qbicc.QoSrelconf) confirms the release of a bearer. rightNOTE Identical to QoSM release confirm (QC2.QoSMrelconf) in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.1.1 and the release of a transport flow is already covered by existing Q.BICC procedures in Q.1902 series. right4.2 Q.BICC related QoS parameters rightTable 1 lists the parameters used in the Q.BICC related QoS primitives not yet covered by the Q.BICC protocol. The deleted items refer to the information elements already covered by the BICC CS2 protocol in the Q.1902 series. rightNOTE The contents of Table 1 is an interpretation of the table in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.2.3. rightTable 1: Identification of Q.BICC related parameters for end-to-end QoS service control rightQbicc.QoSreq QoS Service Class Optional right Codec Type and Packetisation Mandatory right Transport QoS Parameters Mandatory right Traffic Descriptor Optional right Transport Addresses Mandatory right Application Data Transport Protocol Optional [Default RTP] right Packet Transport Protocol Optional [Default UDP] right QoS Mechanism Optional rightQbicc.QoSconf QoS Service Class Optional right Codec Type and Packetisation Mandatory right Transport QoS Parameters Mandatory right Transport Addresses Mandatory right Application Data Transport Protocol Optional [Default RTP] right Packet Transport Protocol Optional [Default UDP] rightQbicc.QoSrej Reason [TBD] Mandatory right5 Q.CBC related QoS primitives and paramet= ers rightThe Q.CBC related QoS primitives and parameters are extracted from clause 8.1 and clause 8.2 of ETSI TS 101 329 part 3. right5.1 Q.CBC related QoS primitives rightThis information flow (QT2 in ETSI TS 101 = 329 part 3) communicates the QoS related transport flow information between a service domain and an associated transport domain. This information contains the QoS related characteristics required of the transport flows that will carry the media flow and the properties of the media flow. rightQ.CBC QoS request (Qcbc.QoSreq) requests t= he establishment of a transport flow with defined QoS characteristics across a Transport Domain or the reservation of Transport Domain resource. rightNOTE Identical to TRM QoS request (QT2.TRMQreq) in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.1.3. rightQ.CBC QoS confirm (Qcbc.QoSconf) acknowled= ges the creation of a requested transport flow or the reservation of Transport Domain resource. rightNOTE Identical to TRM QoS confirm (QT2.TRMQconf) in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.1.3. rightQ.CBC QoS reject (Qcbc.QoSrej) rejects the= creation of a requested transport flow or the reservation of Transport Domain resource. rightNOTE Identical to TRM QoS reject (QT2.TRMQrej) in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.1.3. rightQ.CBC QoS release request (Qcbc.QoSrelreq)= requests the release of a transport flow. rightNOTE Identical to TRM QoS release request (QT2.TRM QoS relreq) in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.1.3. The release of a transport flow is already covered by the existing Q.CBC procedures in Q.1950. rightQ.CBC QoS release confirm (Qcbc.QoSrelconf= ) confirms the release of a transport flow. rightNOTE Identical to TRM QoS release confirm (QT2.TRM QoS relconf) in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.1.3. The release of a transport flow is already covered by the existing Q.CBC procedures in Q.1950. rightQ.CBC QoS performance notification (Qcbc.QoSperfnotif) notifies the Service Domain of the performance of the Transport Domain in meeting the requested QoS levels. This may be a periodic event or an urgent alarm. Note: this primitive is a management primitive and its use is for further study. rightNOTE Identical to TRM QoS performance notification (QT2.TRM QoS perfnotif) in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.1.3. For further study. right5.2 Q.CBC related QoS parameters rightTable 2 lists the parameters used in the Q.CBC related QoS primitives not yet covered by the Q.CBC protocol. The deleted items refer to the information elements already covered by the BICC CS2 protocol in Q.1950. rightNOTE The contents of Table 2 is an interpretation of the table in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.2.5. rightTable 2: Identification of Q.CBC related parameters for end-to-end QoS service control rightQT2.TRMQreq Transport QoS Parameters Mandatory right Traffic Descriptor Mandatory right Transport Addresses Mandatory right Packet Transport Protocol Optional [Default UDP] rightQT2.TRMQconf Transport QoS Parameters Mandatory right Transport Addresses Mandatory right Packet Transport Protocol Optional [Default UDP] right QoS Mechanism Optional rightQT2.TRMQrej Reason [TBD] Mandatory right6 Parameter contents rightTable 3 specifies the information to be covered by the parameters listed in sections 4.2 and 5.2 based on the QoS parameter groups in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.2.1. rightTable 3: Identification of parameter conte= nts for end-to-end QoS service control rightQoS Service Class Describes the end-to-end= ETSI TIPHON Best, High, Medium right class of a bearer or Best Effort rightTransport QoS Specifies the QoS characteristics Maximum Delay rightParameters required of the transport flow= right carrying the media flow. Maximum Packet Delay Variation right Maximum Packet Loss rightTraffic Descriptor Characterises the resource Peak Bit right requirements of an application data right flow (excludes transport flow Maximum Packet Size right resource requirements). rightParameters specifying the ETSI TIPHON QoS Class as defined in ETSI TS 101 329 Part 2 rightThe maximum delay permitted (ms) over eith= er a segment of the transport flow or the remaining part of the transport flow. rightThe maximum packet delay variation permitt= ed (ms) over either a segment of the transport flow or the remaining part of the transport flow. rightThe maximum packet loss permitted (%) over= either a segment of the transport flow or the remaining part of the transport flow. [N.B. This measure assumes randomly distributed packet loss] rightMaximum bit rate (bit/s) of the media flow= . rightMaximum size of the media packets right7 Information flows and signalling procedu= res for end-to-end QoS service control rightEDITORS=92 NOTE The information flows and signalling procedures for end-to-end QoS service control may be considered to follow the same principles as the already existing procedures for end-to-end codec negotiation in BICC CS1 and BICC CS2. Similarly mid-call procedures for end-to-end QoS modification and mid-call QoS modification may be considered because the perceived QoS is highly related to the codec type employed end- to-end as part of the connection. The exact scope and properties of these procedures and protocol message flows needs further discussion. Greg Ratta, Vice Chairman, ITU-T SG 11, Signalling requirements and protoc= ols Lucent Technologies Tel: +1 732 332 5174, Fax: +1 732 949 1196, gratta@lucent.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 31 11:13:07 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA28154 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 11:13:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83ADC4445C; Thu, 31 May 2001 10:30:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from ckmso1.proxy.att.com (ckmso1.att.com [12.20.58.69]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A90144336; Thu, 31 May 2001 09:10:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gab200r1.ems.att.com ([135.37.94.32]) by ckmso1.proxy.att.com (AT&T IPNS/MSO-3.0) with ESMTP id f4VD8wC16127; Thu, 31 May 2001 09:08:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from njb140bh1.ems.att.com by gab200r1.ems.att.com (8.8.8+Sun/ATTEMS-1.4.1 sol2) id JAA04890; Thu, 31 May 2001 09:08:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by njb140bh1.ems.att.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 31 May 2001 09:08:52 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Roy, Radhika R, ALCTA" To: Bob Braden , gratta@lucent.com, sob@harvard.edu, mankin@ISI.EDU Cc: diffserv@ietf.org, iptel@lists.bell-labs.com, issll@mercury.lcs.mit.edu, megaco@fore.com, sip@lists.bell-labs.com, sipping@ietf.org, tsvwg@ietf.org, hiramatsu.yukio@lab.ntt.co.jp, rbuhrke@lucent.com, tsg11q8@ties.itu.ch, tsg11q9@ties.itu.ch, ITU-SG16@mailbag.cps.INTEL.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [SIP] RE: PROPOSED JOINT ACTIVITY ON A GENERIC PROTOCOL MECHANISM FOR E ND-TO-END QOS SERVICE CONTROL Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 09:08:45 -0400 Hi, Bob: All applications (e.g., H.323, SIP) uses signaling messages among its functional entities (e.g., terminal, agents, gatekeepers, proxies, gateways) for communications. The signaling messages that carry QOS parameters are treated as QOS signaling messages. The applications like SIP and H.323 send signaling messages end-to-end. H.323 uses H.225.0 RAS, Q.931, Annex G, and H.245 signaling protocols. SIP also uses SDP as a part of the signaling messages. The signaling messages that carry QOS related information can be treated as "End-to-End QOS signaling" messages. Kindly see the ongoing works of Q.F/16 of SG16. This will provide more information related to your questions. Hope this helps. Best regards, Radhika R. Roy -----Original Message----- From: Bob Braden [mailto:braden@ISI.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 7:39 PM To: gratta@lucent.com; sob@harvard.edu; mankin@ISI.EDU; Roy, Radhika R, ALCTA Cc: diffserv@ietf.org; iptel@lists.bell-labs.com; issll@mercury.lcs.mit.edu; megaco@fore.com; sip@lists.bell-labs.com; sipping@ietf.org; tsvwg@ietf.org; hiramatsu.yukio@lab.ntt.co.jp; rbuhrke@lucent.com; tsg11q8@ties.itu.ch; tsg11q9@ties.itu.ch; ITU-SG16@mailbag.cps.INTEL.COM Subject: RE: PROPOSED JOINT ACTIVITY ON A GENERIC PROTOCOL MECHANISM FOR E ND-TO-END QOS SERVICE CONTROL *> From owner-issll@mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed May 30 14:59:58 2001 *> From: "Roy, Radhika R, ALCTA" *> To: gratta@lucent.com, sob@harvard.edu, mankin@ISI.EDU *> Cc: diffserv@ietf.org, iptel@lists.bell-labs.com, issll@mercury.lcs.mit.edu, *> megaco@fore.com, sip@lists.bell-labs.com, sipping@ietf.org, tsvwg@ietf.org, *> Yukio Hiramatsu *> , rbuhrke@lucent.com, *> tsg11q8@ties.itu.ch, tsg11q9@ties.itu.ch, ITU-SG16@mailbag.cps.INTEL.COM *> Subject: RE: PROPOSED JOINT ACTIVITY ON A GENERIC PROTOCOL MECHANISM FOR E *> ND-TO-END QOS SERVICE CONTROL *> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 17:21:14 -0400 *> MIME-Version: 1.0 *> *> Hi, Everyone: *> *> Question Q.F/16 of ITU-T SG16 is fully dedicated for developing standards *> for "End-to-End QOS for Multimedia Applications". Contributions are also *> being under discussion in the ITU-T SG16 Brazil May 28 - June 8, 2001 *> meeting. This is very confusing. "End-to-End QOS for Multimedia Applications" is an really important topic, but this topic must be a superset of "End-to-End QOS signaling". There are much harder problems than signaling in providing E2E QoS. Can you explain how signaling relates to the title of this working party? Thanks, Bob Braden *> *> Applications like H.323, SIP, H.324, H.310, and others will also be able to *> use this Q.F/16's QOS signaling protocol. MEGACO/H.248 and BICC will also be *> able to use this when specs are fully developed and, TIPHON's QOS mechanisms *> can also be used as one of the mechanisms for implementations. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 31 13:23:06 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA02854 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 13:23:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82CAE44416; Thu, 31 May 2001 13:16:09 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from hs004.hotsip.com (unknown [212.28.214.197]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EEDC4440A for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 13:15:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 0 (hs6.hotsip.com [212.28.212.219]) by hs004.hotsip.com (8.11.0/8.11.0/SuSE Linux 8.11.0-0.4) with ESMTP id f4VHFO608488; Thu, 31 May 2001 19:15:24 +0200 Message-Id: <200105311715.f4VHFO608488@hs004.hotsip.com> X-Authentication-Warning: hs004.hotsip.com: Host hs6.hotsip.com [212.28.212.219] claimed to be 0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: RE: [SIP] Problems with multi-proxy authentication From: Christian Jansson MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?iso-8859-1?q?=22Robert?= =?iso-8859-1?q?_Sparks=22?= Cc: kbinu@hss.hns.com, sip@lists.bell-labs.com In-Reply-To: <9BF66EBF6BEFD942915B4D4D45C051F314A855@DYN-TX-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com> User-Agent: IMHO/0.98.2 (Webmail for Roxen) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 20:23:56 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > Another question is about the description of > > Proxy-Authenticate.The last > > sentence states that: "The server responds with 401 > > (Unauthorized) if the > > client guessed wrong". And the description for WWW-Authenticate > > states > > that: "the WWW-Authenticate response-header MUST be included in > > 401". > > But the handling of WWW-Authenticate seems to be totally > > different as it is > > based on the To header while Proxy-Authenticate handling is > > based on the > > Request-Uri. So how is a UAC supposed to handle this? > > Where do you get the idea that WWW-Authenticate is based on a To: > header? I got it from 10.48 WWW-Authenticate (bis-03). The second part states that: "A user agent SHOULD cache the authorization credentials for a given value of the destination (To header) and realm ...". But the main question is still that an UAC that re-sends a request after receiving a 407 can get a 401 back, which MUST have a WWW-Authenticate header. I thougth this 401/WWW-Authenticate response would mean the UAC was beeing queried for authentication by an UAS (not Proxy) and that the next request should have a Authorization header added to it. But all I wanted from the beginning was to get through a proxy... 19.1, 3:rd sentence also seems to indicate that a proxy server isn't allowed to send 401s: "The 401 response is used by user agent servers in SIP to challenge the authorization of a user agent client. Additionally, registrars and redirect servers MAY make use of 401 responses for authorization, but proxies MUST NOT, and instead MAY use the 407 response." Shouldn´t the proxy just send another 407 with Proxy-Authenticate if the credentials were wrong? Then the UAC would know that it is a Proxy-Authorization header it should provide in the next request. Christian Jansson Hotsip www.hotsip.com > > > > > I also think that the description of Proxy-Authenticate is a > > bit strange as it talks a lot about the UAC "contacting a > > specific proxy server". Since when > > did a SIP UAC actually know that it was going to contact a > > proxy server and not a UAS, or a redirect server? > > > > Christian Jansson > > Hotsip > > www.hotsip.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 31 13:47:56 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA03558 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 13:47:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31BC64441C; Thu, 31 May 2001 13:43:13 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mailgate.pit.comms.marconi.com (mailgate.pit.comms.marconi.com [169.144.68.6]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D860443A3; Thu, 31 May 2001 13:42:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailman.pit.comms.marconi.com (mailman.pit.comms.marconi.com [169.144.2.12]) by mailgate.pit.comms.marconi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA07898; Thu, 31 May 2001 13:41:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from whq-msgrtr-01.pit.comms.marconi.com (whq-msgrtr-01.pit.comms.marconi.com [169.144.2.221]) by mailman.pit.comms.marconi.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA14833; Thu, 31 May 2001 13:41:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by whq-msgrtr-01.pit.comms.marconi.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 31 May 2001 13:41:30 -0400 Message-ID: <4FBEA8857476D311A03300204840E1CF044654D4@whq-msgusr-02.pit.comms.marconi.com> From: "Rosen, Brian" To: diffserv@ietf.org, iptel@lists.bell-labs.com, megaco@fore.com, sip@lists.bell-labs.com, tsvwg@ietf.org Cc: gratta@lucent.com, ITU-SG16@mailbag.cps.INTEL.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [SIP] RE: [Sipping] RE: PROPOSED JOINT ACTIVITY ON A GENERIC PROTOCOL M ECHANISM FOR E ND-TO-END QOS SERVICE CONTROL Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 13:41:29 -0400 Folks, this thread may or may not be the start of something good or evil, but it is going out to too many lists! Please, as of now, let's move it to one, and only one list. I nominate tsvwg. If you are replying to any message on this thread, PLEASE edit the to/cc to limit it to tsvwg@ietf.org Brian > -----Original Message----- > From: Fred Baker [mailto:fred@cisco.com] > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 1:09 PM > To: Roy, Radhika R, ALCTA > Cc: Bob Braden; gratta@lucent.com; sob@harvard.edu; mankin@isi.edu; > diffserv@ietf.org; iptel@lists.bell-labs.com; > issll@mercury.lcs.mit.edu; > megaco@fore.com; sip@lists.bell-labs.com; sipping@ietf.org; > tsvwg@ietf.org; hiramatsu.yukio@lab.ntt.co.jp; rbuhrke@lucent.com; > tsg11q8@ties.itu.ch; tsg11q9@ties.itu.ch; > ITU-SG16@mailbag.cps.INTEL.COM > Subject: [Sipping] RE: PROPOSED JOINT ACTIVITY ON A GENERIC PROTOCOL > MECHANISM FOR E ND-TO-END QOS SERVICE CONTROL > > > At 06:08 AM 5/31/2001, Roy, Radhika R, ALCTA wrote: > >All applications (e.g., H.323, SIP) uses signaling messages > >among its functional entities (e.g., terminal, agents, > >gatekeepers, proxies, gateways) for communications. > > I'm not sure we're on the same planet. Please help me out here. > > I can think of a few applications that have agents, > gatekeepers, proxies, > and gateways, mostly resulting from the imposition of firewalls or > authentication systems, or from legacy applications like > imitating the > telephone system in a data network. The only one that > *requires* any kind > of gateway, to my knowledge, is H.323 teleconferencing, which > represents a > paltry fraction of traffic according to most current > measurements. Anything > else (75% of Internet traffic is http or FTP, most of the > rest is mail, on > private LANs applications like NFS are pretty common, and > even SIP can be > done without a gateway between consenting systems) could be > hooked up in > separate systems on a LAN and made to work without any such > signalling at all. > > Could you be more specific on what QoS signalling is required > by the world > wide web, mail, FTP, common ERP applications like ERP and PeopleSoft, > calendaring, and so on? If not, could you be more specific > about what "all" > applications you have in mind? > > And could you be more specific about what issues this proposal is > addressing that have not already been addressed in de facto > standards and > deployed in operational systems? It would be very nice to > understand what > you are preparing to ask vendors to do, and whether operators are > interested in deploying them. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sipping mailing list > Sipping@ietf.org > http://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sipping > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 31 13:52:54 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id NAA03760 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 13:52:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39ADE44470; Thu, 31 May 2001 13:51:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from wellington.cnchost.com (wellington.concentric.net [207.155.252.14]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF94744470 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 13:50:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nextone.com ([207.113.13.1]) by wellington.cnchost.com id NAA20759; Thu, 31 May 2001 13:50:22 -0400 (EDT) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.13] Message-ID: <3B168321.3010806@nextone.com> From: Shan Lu User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux 2.2.12-20 i686; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001107 Netscape6/6.0 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [SIP] comments on SDP section/bis-03 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 13:45:05 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, 1. From Section B.3.1 (3rd paragraph): "If the stream in the answer is marked as sendrecv, it MUST contain at least one codec the answerer is willing to both send and receive with, from amongst those listed in the offer. The stream MAY indicate additional codes, not listed in the corresponding stream in the offer, that the answerer is willing to receive with." My comment is on the last sentence. It seems rather odd that somebody can list a codec as recv only in a media stream that is send and recv. Is this a typo? The last sentence should read as: "The stream ..., that the answerer is willing to send and receive with." 2. Immediately after the quoted sentences, I propose that we add the following text: "If more than one codec are listed in the answer, the answerer and offerer may choose different codecs to send media, leading to asymmetric codecs being used for send and receive. Furthermore, even for the same codec, the answerer and offerer may choose different packetization sizes because the indication of packetization time is not mandatory in SDP." I'd rather see that the SIP spec requires only one codec listed in the answer and mandates usage of ptime, for reasons that I elaborated in my earlier postings. If people out there think otherwise, at least we need to point out the consequences. 3. From Section B.4 (4th paragraph): "..., the new SDP MUST have a matching media section for each media section in the previous SDP. ... This matching is necessary in order for the answerer to determine which stream in the new SDP corresponds to a stream in the previous SDP." I think the idea of "matching media" is completely bogus as described in bis-03. Compare the 2nd and 3rd examples in Section B.5. Are the first m lines in these two SDPs supposed to match with each other? What if the media has changed? Consider the following two SDPs: SDP1: m=audio 2400 RTP/AVP 0 m=video 3600 RTP/AVP 31 SDP2: m=video 3600 RTP/AVP 31 m=audio 2402 RTP/AVP 0 The only thing that has changed is the audio port from 2400 to 2402. But since I am allowed to change media type, I can change the order of the m lines. We can always refuse/delete a media stream by setting the port to 0. I don't understand why one needs to change the media type. Regards, Shan Lu NexTone Communications _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 31 14:30:01 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id OAA05268 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 14:30:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB24544481; Thu, 31 May 2001 14:30:08 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E2DF443E9 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 14:29:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id OAA13375; Thu, 31 May 2001 14:33:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 31 May 2001 14:29:33 -0400 Message-ID: <9BF66EBF6BEFD942915B4D4D45C051F314A857@DYN-TX-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com> From: Robert Sparks To: "'Christian Jansson'" , Robert Sparks , "'jdrosen@dynamcisoft.com'" Cc: kbinu@hss.hns.com, sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] Problems with multi-proxy authentication MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 14:29:29 -0400 > -----Original Message----- > From: Christian Jansson [mailto:christian@hotsip.com] > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 2:24 PM > To: "Robert Sparks" > Cc: kbinu@hss.hns.com; sip@lists.bell-labs.com > Subject: RE: [SIP] Problems with multi-proxy authentication > > > > > > Another question is about the description of > > > Proxy-Authenticate.The last > > > sentence states that: "The server responds with 401 > > > (Unauthorized) if the > > > client guessed wrong". And the description for WWW-Authenticate > > > states > > > that: "the WWW-Authenticate response-header MUST be included in > > > 401". > > > But the handling of WWW-Authenticate seems to be totally > > > different as it is > > > based on the To header while Proxy-Authenticate handling is > > > based on the > > > Request-Uri. So how is a UAC supposed to handle this? > > > > Where do you get the idea that WWW-Authenticate is based on a To: > > header? > > I got it from 10.48 WWW-Authenticate (bis-03). The second part states > that: "A user agent SHOULD cache the authorization credentials for a > given value of the destination (To header) and realm ...". I'm not sure why that's there. It implies that I (the user) will have to reenter my proxy credentials every time I call someone new. I don't think that's what was intended. Jonathan? RjS _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 31 14:38:48 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id OAA05642 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 14:38:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43593443E9; Thu, 31 May 2001 14:39:05 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from redball.dynamicsoft.com (redball.dynamicsoft.com [216.173.40.51]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75C0C443CA for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 14:38:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com ([216.173.40.50]) by redball.dynamicsoft.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.10.0.Beta12) with ESMTP id OAA13550; Thu, 31 May 2001 14:41:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by DYN-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 31 May 2001 14:37:55 -0400 Message-ID: <9BF66EBF6BEFD942915B4D4D45C051F314A858@DYN-TX-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com> From: Robert Sparks To: "'Christian Jansson'" , Robert Sparks Cc: kbinu@hss.hns.com, sip@lists.bell-labs.com Subject: RE: [SIP] Problems with multi-proxy authentication MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 14:37:46 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ietf.org id OAA05642 > From: Christian Jansson [mailto:christian@hotsip.com] > But the main question is still that an UAC that re-sends a request > after receiving a 407 can get a 401 back, which MUST have a > WWW-Authenticate header. I thougth this 401/WWW-Authenticate response > would mean the UAC was beeing queried for authentication by an UAS > (not Proxy) and that the next request should have a Authorization > header added to it. But all I wanted from the beginning was to get > through a proxy... If you got a 401, you got through. The Proxy-Authorization worked. The 401 had to have come from something on the other side of the proxy. Your next request would have _both_ a Proxy-Authorization header (to get back through the proxy) and an Authorization header destined for the thing that sent the 401. > > 19.1, 3:rd sentence also seems to indicate that a proxy server isn't > allowed to send 401s: > "The 401 response is used by user agent servers in SIP to challenge > the authorization of a user agent client. Additionally, registrars and > redirect servers MAY make use of 401 responses for authorization, but > proxies MUST NOT, and instead MAY use the 407 response." This says a proxy won't _generate_ a 401, but doesn't prevent it from forwarding one. > > > Shouldn´t the proxy just send another 407 with Proxy-Authenticate if > the credentials were wrong? Then the UAC would know that it is a > Proxy-Authorization header it should provide in the next request. That is exactly the expected behavior. btw - if you didn't keep a copy of the original multiproxy-auth draft, its still lingering at http://www.softarmor.com/sipwg/drafts/draft-sparks-sip-multiproxy-auth-00.tx t RjS _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 31 14:50:49 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id OAA05941 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 14:50:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D0724448D; Thu, 31 May 2001 14:51:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mailweb25.rediffmail.com (unknown [203.199.83.29]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id E9FE9443B4 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 14:50:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 23666 invoked by uid 510); 31 May 2001 18:55:23 -0000 Message-ID: <20010531185523.23665.qmail@mailweb25.rediffmail.com> Received: from unknown (203.145.133.130) by rediffmail.com via HTTP; 31 May 2001 18:55:23 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "sip@lists.bell-labs.com" From: "kumar s" Content-ID: Content-type: text/plain Content-Description: Body Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [SIP] what UA does for a -ve response for HOLD and HOLD retrieve Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: 31 May 2001 18:55:23 -0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hello all, could any one explain what a SIP UA has to do for a -ve response for a HOLD and HOLD retrieve messages. And how long a UA could remain in held state. Thanks S.Kumar _____________________________________________________ Chat with your friends as soon as they come online. Get Rediff Bol at http://bol.rediff.com _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 31 17:05:21 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id RAA08114 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 17:05:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93E1044420; Thu, 31 May 2001 17:00:07 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from hs004.hotsip.com (unknown [212.28.214.197]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E5FE4440A for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 16:59:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 0 (hs6.hotsip.com [212.28.212.219]) by hs004.hotsip.com (8.11.0/8.11.0/SuSE Linux 8.11.0-0.4) with ESMTP id f4VKxL613293; Thu, 31 May 2001 22:59:21 +0200 Message-Id: <200105312059.f4VKxL613293@hs004.hotsip.com> X-Authentication-Warning: hs004.hotsip.com: Host hs6.hotsip.com [212.28.212.219] claimed to be 0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: RE: [SIP] Problems with multi-proxy authentication From: Christian Jansson MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?iso-8859-1?q?=22Robert?= =?iso-8859-1?q?_Sparks=22?= Cc: =?iso-8859-1?q?=22Robert?= =?iso-8859-1?q?_Sparks=22?= , kbinu@hss.hns.com, sip@lists.bell-labs.com In-Reply-To: <9BF66EBF6BEFD942915B4D4D45C051F314A858@DYN-TX-EXCH-001.dynamicsoft.com> User-Agent: IMHO/0.98.2 (Webmail for Roxen) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 00:08:00 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ok, it seems like we both agree on this. But take a look at 10.31 in bis-03, last sentence. I think it trying to say that if I send the wrong credentials to a 407/Proxy-Authentication I will get a 401 back! Christian Jansson Hotsip www.hotsip.com > > > From: Christian Jansson [mailto:christian@hotsip.com] > > But the main question is still that an UAC that re-sends a request > > after receiving a 407 can get a 401 back, which MUST have a > > WWW-Authenticate header. I thougth this 401/WWW-Authenticate response > > would mean the UAC was beeing queried for authentication by an UAS > > (not Proxy) and that the next request should have a Authorization > > header added to it. But all I wanted from the beginning was to get > > through a proxy... > > If you got a 401, you got through. The Proxy-Authorization worked. The > 401 had to have come from something on the other side of the proxy. > Your next request would have _both_ a Proxy-Authorization header (to > get back through the proxy) and an Authorization header destined for > the thing that sent the 401. > > > > > 19.1, 3:rd sentence also seems to indicate that a proxy server isn't > > allowed to send 401s: > > "The 401 response is used by user agent servers in SIP to challenge > > the authorization of a user agent client. Additionally, registrars and > > redirect servers MAY make use of 401 responses for authorization, but > > proxies MUST NOT, and instead MAY use the 407 response." > > This says a proxy won't _generate_ a 401, but doesn't prevent it > from forwarding one. > > > > > > > Shouldn´t the proxy just send another 407 with Proxy-Authenticate if > > the credentials were wrong? Then the UAC would know that it is a > > Proxy-Authorization header it should provide in the next request. > > That is exactly the expected behavior. > > btw - if you didn't keep a copy of the original multiproxy-auth draft, > its still lingering at > http://www.softarmor.com/sipwg/drafts/draft-sparks-sip-multiproxy-auth -00.tx > t > > RjS > _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 31 17:55:48 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id RAA08868 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 17:55:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 510FF443E5; Thu, 31 May 2001 17:56:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from prue.eim.surrey.ac.uk (prue.eim.surrey.ac.uk [131.227.76.5]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16760443FA; Thu, 31 May 2001 11:14:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phaestos.ee.surrey.ac.uk ([131.227.88.14] ident=eep1lw) by prue.eim.surrey.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 155U91-00045U-00; Thu, 31 May 2001 16:13:51 +0100 From: Lloyd Wood X-Sender: eep1lw@phaestos.ee.surrey.ac.uk Reply-To: Lloyd Wood To: Fred Baker Cc: gratta@lucent.com, sob@harvard.edu, mankin@isi.edu, diffserv@ietf.org, iptel@lists.bell-labs.com, issll@mercury.lcs.mit.edu, megaco@fore.com, sip@lists.bell-labs.com, sipping@ietf.org, tsvwg@ietf.org, Yukio Hiramatsu , rbuhrke@lucent.com, tsg11q8@ties.itu.ch, tsg11q9@ties.itu.ch, John C Klensin , chair@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010530152432.043b8ec0@mira-sjcm-2.cisco.com> Message-ID: Organization: speaking for none X-url: http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/L.Wood/ X-no-archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Scanner: exiscan *155U91-00045U-00*ZWgRfZ3Wo52* http://duncanthrax.net/exiscan/ Subject: [SIP] Re: [Diffserv] Re: PROPOSED JOINT ACTIVITY ON A GENERIC PROTOCOL MECHANISM FOR END-TO-END QOS SERVICE CONTROL Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 16:13:43 +0100 (BST) On Wed, 30 May 2001, Fred Baker wrote: > Greg: > > The URLs in this note were all sent with what the ETSI machine considered > to be 'malformed syntax'. Could you resend the correct URLs? Just put all the parts together, removing unencoded spaces; the reason for the breaks after the hyphens seems obvious enough, but I'm at a loss to explain others. Here we go: http://docbox.etsi.org/tech-org/tiphon/Document/tiphon/07-drafts/wg5/_Published/DTS05009/V1.1.1/ts_101329-2v111p.doc http://docbox.etsi.org/tech-org/tiphon/Document/tiphon/07-drafts/wg5/_Published/DTS05003/DTS05003v096.zip http://webapp.etsi.org/tbhomepage/TBDetails.asp?TB_ID=291&TB_NAME=TIPHON http://docbox.etsi.org/tech-org/tiphon/Document/tiphon/ARCHIVES/2000/05-200012-Kyoto/WG5%20TIPHON21%20presentation%20Rev1.ppt So http://docbox.etsi.org/ is passworded but docs can be retrieved by advertised public direct url? Bizarre. L. PGP _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 31 18:01:22 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id SAA09024 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 18:01:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FE2C44453; Thu, 31 May 2001 17:56:18 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mailhub1.almaden.ibm.com (mailhub1.almaden.ibm.com [198.4.83.44]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47E5B443C5; Thu, 31 May 2001 12:06:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from maui.almaden.ibm.com (maui.almaden.ibm.com [9.1.24.92]) by mailhub1.almaden.ibm.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA34990; Thu, 31 May 2001 09:04:55 -0700 Received: from hursley.ibm.com ([9.29.3.174]) by maui.almaden.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3/8.7) with ESMTP id JAA20120; Thu, 31 May 2001 09:04:54 -0700 Message-ID: <3B166AFC.9DF4CD05@hursley.ibm.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,fr MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gratta@lucent.com Cc: sob@harvard.edu, mankin@isi.edu, diffserv@ietf.org, iptel@lists.bell-labs.com, issll@mercury.lcs.mit.edu, megaco@fore.com, sip@lists.bell-labs.com, sipping@ietf.org, tsvwg@ietf.org, Yukio Hiramatsu , rbuhrke@lucent.com, tsg11q8@ties.itu.ch, tsg11q9@ties.itu.ch References: <200105302022.QAA03855@hotair.hobl.lucent.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Subject: [SIP] Re: [Diffserv] PROPOSED JOINT ACTIVITY ON A GENERIC PROTOCOL MECHANISM FOR END-TO-END QOS SERVICE CONTROL Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 11:02:04 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by ietf.org id SAA09024 Folks, This is *not* a discussion item for the diffserv WG mailing list. This WG is not chartered to discuss signalling issues. Whether the ITU should work on this and if so how it should collaborate with the IETF should be discussed at liaison level, not on a list with a few hundred people. So please everybody drop this discussion on the diffserv list and continue elswhere. Regards Brian Carpenter diffserv co-chair Greg Ratta wrote: > > This message was agreed to at ITU-T Study Group 11 meeting (Geneva, May 2001) and is being transmitted on behalf of Yukio Hiramatsu, Chairman of ITU-T SG 11. For further technical clarification, contact the Rapporteur for Q9/11 (Rolfe Buhrke, Tel: + 1 630 713 7022, { HYPERLINK mailto:rburke@lucent.com }rbuhrke@lucent.com) > > FULL TITLE: PROPOSED JOINT ACTIVITY ON A GENERIC PROTOCOL MECHANISM FOR END-TO-END QOS SERVICE CONTROL AND SIGNALLING PROTOCOL DEVELOPMENT BASED ON IP TRANSFER CAPABILITIES AND IP QOS CLASSES > > General > > Within ITU-T SG11 work has started on requirements for a generic protocol mechanism for end-to-end QoS service control. It was agreed within SG11 to proceed with this work utilising deliverables of ETSI TIPHON on end- to-end QoS service control as base material. It is the opinion of SG11 that this generic protocol mechanism for BICC intends to apply also to other protocols like SIP/SDP and H.323 next to generic extensions to the H.248/MEGACO protocol. > > It was noted that also QoS related work is in progress in IETF. Please find attached an initial draft of the BICC CS3 signalling requirements for end-to-end QoS service control. Please note the rationale for this activity and the framework for end-to-end QoS service control and network QoS control. The framework illustrates the field of application of the QoS handling at different levels and the different protocols involved. > > Proposals on end-to-end QoS service control > > It is proposed to start a joint activity with IETF on a generic protocol mechanism for end- to-end QoS service control. This refers to the potential work in IETF on the following topics: > > - Identification of the signalling requirements based on the ETSI TIPHON defined speech QoS service classes for VoIP and the signalling and control of end-to-end QoS for VoIP. The attachment provides the initial draft of the BICC CS3 signalling requirements for end-to-end QoS service control. > > - The definition of a generic call/bearer control mechanism in H.225/H.245, SIP/SDP and BICC CS3 for end-to-end QoS service control in the application plane. > > - The definition of generic extensions to H.248/MEGACO for end-to-end QoS service control between the application plane and the transport plane. > > - The translation between the generic protocol QoS information elements in H.248/MEGACO and the technology specific QoS parameters and QoS mechanisms in IP, ATM, MPLS, etc. > > Proposals on IP QoS classes and IP Transfer Capabilities > > ITU-T SG11 would like to inform IETF that it is investigating signalling requirements for protocol development based on the IP Transfer Capabilities and IP QoS classes, as being defined by ITU-T SG13 in Y.1541 and Y.iptc. The plan is to build upon signalling approaches developed by IETF. We would like to stress that the work on IP QoS classes and IP Transfer Capabilities by ITU-T SG13 is co- ordinated with IETF. > > ATTACHMENT Initial draft text of the BICC CS3 signalling requirements for end-to-end QoS service control. > > The ETSI specifications referenced as base material are available at the following URLs: > > ETSI TS 301 329 part 2, http://docbox.etsi.org/tech- org/tiphon/Document/tiphon/07- drafts/wg5/_Published/DTS05009/V1.1.1/ts_10 1329-2v111p.doc > > - ETSI TS 301 329 part 3 see http://docbox.etsi.org/tech- org/tiphon/Document/tiphon/07- drafts/wg5/_Published/DTS05003/DTS05003v096.zi p > > Further information about the ETSI TIPHON project is available at the following URL: > > - http://webapp.etsi.org/tbhomepage/TBDetails.as p?TB_ID=291&TB_NAME=TIPHON > __________________ > > BICC CS3 signalling requirements for end-to- end QoS service control > > EDITORS’ NOTE: This requirements text for end-to-end QoS service control is a first draft text and requires extensive updating based on liaison activities with other groups > > 1 Rationale > > The rationale of the BICC CS3 requirements for end-to-end service control is based on the analysis made by ETSI TIPHON (see the presentation available at the URL: http://docbox.etsi.org/tech- org/tiphon/Document/tiphon/ARCHIVES/2000/05- 200012- Kyoto/WG5%20TIPHON21%20presentation%20Rev1.ppt ). It shows the inter-relationship between the different QoS factors that finally determine > the perceived speech quality by the end- users. This perceived speech quality does not only depend on network quality of service (network packet loss, network jitter and network delay) but on the terminal implementation (jitter buffers and codec performance) as well. > > A second rationale is that end-to-end QoS requirements can be regarded as end-to-end quality budgets related to the media flows. To achieve the required end-to-end QoS these quality budgets must be allocated between the domains, including the user equipment (see Figure 7 in ETSI TS 301 329 part 3). The Transport QoS Parameters specify the QoS budgets for each Transport Domain. It is assumed that the performance of each domain is statistically independent from any other. > > Therefore end-to-end QoS service control at the call control level (i.e. application plane) is required based on generic signalling procedures in protocols like BICC, SIP/SDP, H.323 and H.248/MEGACO for end-to- end QoS service control. > > 2 Framework for end-to-end QoS service control and network QoS control. > > A framework for QoS control may be considered at different levels: call control (BICC, SIP/SDP, H.323), vertical control (H.248/MEGACO, CBC), bearer control (IP BCP) and bearer (DiffServ, IntServ/RSVP or MPLS/LDP). > > 1) Call-control > > a) End-to-end QoS service control is negotiated/communicated end-to-end at the call control level. ETSI TIPHON has defined a set of speech QoS classes, and signalling requirements and flows for this purpose. > > The idea is that call control protocols are enhanced with a generic end-to-end QoS service control mechanism to negotiate these speech QoS classes and associated parameters (Maximum delay, Maximum packet delay variation, Maximum packet loss, Peak bit rate and Maximum packet size). > > Such a generic end-to-end QoS service control mechanism should be defined independent of the underlying technology (ATM or IP) and operate across network domains and including terminal characteristics to negotiate/communicate the requested listener speech quality that will be perceived by the end-users (i.e. "mouth-to-ear"). > > b) BICC (Q.190x) is one of the call control protocols that may be enhanced this way. Similar enhancements may be applicable to other call-control protocols like SIP/SDP and H.323. > > 2) Vertical control > > a) QoS service control is also negotiated/communicated at the vertical control level. The ETSI TIPHON defined signalling requirements and flows include the vertical interface. The idea is that vertical control protocols are enhanced to negotiate/communicate the QoS settings (Maximum delay, Maximum packet delay variation, Maximum packet loss, Peak bit rate and Maximum packet size) in the bearer core network based on generic H.248/MEGACO extensions. > > These QoS settings should be defined independent of the underlying technology (ATM or IP) of the bearer core network. > > b) CBC (Q.1950) is one of the vertical control protocols that may be enhanced this way. > > 3) Bearer control > > a) Network QoS is negotiated/communicated at the bearer control level. ATM signalling does already intrinsically support network QoS. SG13 has recently defined IP QoS classes and IP Transfer Capabilities. > > The idea is that bearer control protocols for IP are enhanced with a mechanism to negotiate the network QoS by using IP QoS classes and IP Transfer Capabilities. > > b) IP BCP (Q.1970) is an IP bearer control protocol that may be enhanced this way. > > 4) Bearer > > a) Network QoS is negotiated/communicated at the bearer level, i.e. as part of the protocols associated with the bearers in the core network. The idea is that IP QoS classes and IP Transfer Capabilties, as defined by SG13, are used to differentiate between different types of IP traffic. > > b) IP QoS classes and IP Transfer Capabilities may be used to enhance existing IP mechanisms like DiffServ, IntServ/RSVP and MPLS/LDP. > > 3 QoS information flows applicable to BICC > > A general model is considered for QoS information flows with BICC when making a translation of the relevant parts in Figure 8 in ETSI TS 301 329 part 3. > > Section 4 details the Q.BICC related QoS primitives and parameters based on the QoS primitives and parameters in the ETSI deliverable. Similarly, section 5 provides the Q.CBC related QoS primitives and parameters. > > 4 Q.BICC related QoS primitives and parameters > > The Q.BICC related QoS primitives and parameters are extracted from clause 8.1 and clause 8.2 of ETSI TS 101 329 part 3. > > 4.1 Q.BICC related QoS primitives > > This information flow (QC2 in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3) communicates the QoS related bearer information between the domains of different service providers. > > Q.BICC QoS request (Qbicc.QoSreq) requests the establishment of a bearer conforming to a particular ETSI TIPHON Class of Service or with defined QoS characteristics. > > NOTE Identical to QoSM request (QC2.QoSMreq) in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.1.1. > > Q.BICC QoS confirm (Qbicc.QoSconf) acknowledges the creation of a bearer conforming to a requested ETSI TIPHON QoS Class or with specified QoS characteristics. > > NOTE Identical to QoSM confirm (QC2.QoSMconf) in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.1.1. > > Q.BICC QoS reject (Qbicc.QoSrej) rejects the creation of a bearer conforming to a requested ETSI TIPHON QoS Class or with specified QoS characteristics. > > NOTE Identical to QoSM reject (QC2.QoSMrej) in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.1.1. > > Q.BICC release request (Qbicc.QoSrelreq) requests the release of a bearer. > > NOTE Identical to QoSM release request (QC2.QoSMrelreq) in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.1.1 and the release of a transport flow is already covered by existing Q.BICC procedures in Q.1902 series. > > QoSM release confirm (Qbicc.QoSrelconf) confirms the release of a bearer. > > NOTE Identical to QoSM release confirm (QC2.QoSMrelconf) in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.1.1 and the release of a transport flow is already covered by existing Q.BICC procedures in Q.1902 series. > > 4.2 Q.BICC related QoS parameters > > Table 1 lists the parameters used in the Q.BICC related QoS primitives not yet covered by the Q.BICC protocol. The deleted items refer to the information elements already covered by the BICC CS2 protocol in the Q.1902 series. > > NOTE The contents of Table 1 is an interpretation of the table in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.2.3. > > Table 1: Identification of Q.BICC related parameters for end-to-end QoS service control > Qbicc.QoSreq QoS Service Class Optional > > Codec Type and Packetisation Mandatory > > Transport QoS Parameters Mandatory > > Traffic Descriptor Optional > > Transport Addresses Mandatory > > Application Data Transport Protocol Optional [Default RTP] > > Packet Transport Protocol Optional [Default UDP] > > QoS Mechanism Optional > > Qbicc.QoSconf QoS Service Class Optional > > Codec Type and Packetisation Mandatory > > Transport QoS Parameters Mandatory > > Transport Addresses Mandatory > > Application Data Transport Protocol Optional [Default RTP] > > Packet Transport Protocol Optional [Default UDP] > > Qbicc.QoSrej Reason [TBD] Mandatory > > 5 Q.CBC related QoS primitives and parameters > > The Q.CBC related QoS primitives and parameters are extracted from clause 8.1 and clause 8.2 of ETSI TS 101 329 part 3. > > 5.1 Q.CBC related QoS primitives > > This information flow (QT2 in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3) communicates the QoS related transport flow information between a service domain and an associated transport domain. This information contains the QoS related characteristics required of the transport flows that will carry the media flow and the properties of the media flow. > > Q.CBC QoS request (Qcbc.QoSreq) requests the establishment of a transport flow with defined QoS characteristics across a Transport Domain or the reservation of Transport Domain resource. > > NOTE Identical to TRM QoS request (QT2.TRMQreq) in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.1.3. > > Q.CBC QoS confirm (Qcbc.QoSconf) acknowledges the creation of a requested transport flow or the reservation of Transport Domain resource. > > NOTE Identical to TRM QoS confirm (QT2.TRMQconf) in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.1.3. > > Q.CBC QoS reject (Qcbc.QoSrej) rejects the creation of a requested transport flow or the reservation of Transport Domain resource. > > NOTE Identical to TRM QoS reject (QT2.TRMQrej) in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.1.3. > > Q.CBC QoS release request (Qcbc.QoSrelreq) requests the release of a transport flow. > > NOTE Identical to TRM QoS release request (QT2.TRM QoS relreq) in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.1.3. The release of a transport flow is already covered by the existing Q.CBC procedures in Q.1950. > > Q.CBC QoS release confirm (Qcbc.QoSrelconf) confirms the release of a transport flow. > > NOTE Identical to TRM QoS release confirm (QT2.TRM QoS relconf) in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.1.3. The release of a transport flow is already covered by the existing Q.CBC procedures in Q.1950. > > Q.CBC QoS performance notification (Qcbc.QoSperfnotif) notifies the Service Domain of the performance of the Transport Domain in meeting the requested QoS levels. This may be a periodic event or an urgent alarm. Note: this primitive is a management primitive and its use is for further study. > > NOTE Identical to TRM QoS performance notification (QT2.TRM QoS perfnotif) in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.1.3. For further study. > > 5.2 Q.CBC related QoS parameters > > Table 2 lists the parameters used in the Q.CBC related QoS primitives not yet covered by the Q.CBC protocol. The deleted items refer to the information elements already covered by the BICC CS2 protocol in Q.1950. > > NOTE The contents of Table 2 is an interpretation of the table in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.2.5. > > Table 2: Identification of Q.CBC related parameters for end-to-end QoS service control > > QT2.TRMQreq Transport QoS Parameters Mandatory > > Traffic Descriptor Mandatory > > Transport Addresses Mandatory > > Packet Transport Protocol Optional [Default UDP] > > QT2.TRMQconf Transport QoS Parameters Mandatory > > Transport Addresses Mandatory > > Packet Transport Protocol Optional [Default UDP] > > QoS Mechanism Optional > > QT2.TRMQrej Reason [TBD] Mandatory > > 6 Parameter contents > > Table 3 specifies the information to be covered by the parameters listed in sections 4.2 and 5.2 based on the QoS parameter groups in ETSI TS 101 329 part 3 clause 8.2.1. > > Table 3: Identification of parameter contents for end-to-end QoS service control > > QoS Service Class Describes the end-to-end ETSI TIPHON Best, High, Medium > class of a bearer or Best Effort > > Transport QoS Specifies the QoS characteristics Maximum Delay > Parameters required of the transport flow > carrying the media flow. Maximum Packet Delay Variation > > Maximum Packet Loss > > Traffic Descriptor Characterises the resource Peak Bit > requirements of an application data > flow (excludes transport flow Maximum Packet Size > resource requirements). > > Parameters specifying the ETSI TIPHON QoS Class as defined in ETSI TS 101 329 Part 2 > > The maximum delay permitted (ms) over either a segment of the transport flow or the remaining part of the transport flow. > > The maximum packet delay variation permitted (ms) over either a segment of the transport flow or the remaining part of the transport flow. > > The maximum packet loss permitted (%) over either a segment of the transport flow or the remaining part of the transport flow. [N.B. This measure assumes randomly distributed packet loss] > Maximum bit rate (bit/s) of the media flow. > > Maximum size of the media packets > > 7 Information flows and signalling procedures for end-to-end QoS service control > > EDITORS’ NOTE The information flows and signalling procedures for end-to-end QoS service control may be considered to follow the same principles as the already existing procedures for end-to-end codec negotiation in BICC CS1 and BICC CS2. Similarly mid-call procedures for end-to-end QoS modification and mid-call QoS modification may be considered because the perceived QoS is highly related to the codec type employed end- to-end as part of the connection. The exact scope and properties of these procedures and protocol message flows needs further discussion. > > Greg Ratta, Vice Chairman, ITU-T SG 11, Signalling requirements and protocols > Lucent Technologies Tel: +1 732 332 5174, Fax: +1 732 949 1196, gratta@lucent.com > > _______________________________________________ diffserv mailing list diffserv@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/diffserv Archive: http://www2.ietf.org/mail-archive/working-groups/diffserv/current/maillist.html -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian E Carpenter Distinguished Engineer, Internet Standards & Technology, IBM On assignment for IBM at http://www.iCAIR.org Board Chairman, Internet Society http://www.isoc.org _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 31 18:11:41 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id SAA09189 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 18:11:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9BF044486; Thu, 31 May 2001 17:56:29 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk (bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk [128.16.5.31]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 55964443C5; Thu, 31 May 2001 12:12:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eucharisto.cs.ucl.ac.uk by bells.cs.ucl.ac.uk with local SMTP id ; Thu, 31 May 2001 17:11:33 +0100 To: Lloyd Wood Cc: Fred Baker , gratta@lucent.com, sob@harvard.edu, mankin@isi.edu, diffserv@ietf.org, iptel@lists.bell-labs.com, issll@mercury.lcs.mit.edu, megaco@fore.com, sip@lists.bell-labs.com, sipping@ietf.org, tsvwg@ietf.org, Yukio Hiramatsu , rbuhrke@lucent.com, tsg11q8@ties.itu.ch, tsg11q9@ties.itu.ch, John C Klensin , chair@ietf.org, J.Crowcroft@cs.ucl.ac.uk In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 31 May 2001 16:13:43 BST." Message-ID: <922.991325489@cs.ucl.ac.uk> From: Jon Crowcroft Subject: [SIP] Re: [Diffserv] Re: PROPOSED JOINT ACTIVITY ON A GENERIC PROTOCOL MECHANISM FOR END-TO-END QOS SERVICE CONTROL Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 17:11:29 +0100 so the talk seems to be dated dec 2001, and makes me wonder if the tiphon folks have achieved a breakthru in QOS with e2e delays better than 0ms..... meanwhile, i stuck html versions of the files below at ftp://cs.ucl.ac.uk/darpa/tiphon/ (prob. doesnt help non windoze users since the html is generated by office 2000 apps so unless you have the unix internet explorer, too bad) In message , Lloyd Wood typed: >>On Wed, 30 May 2001, Fred Baker wrote: >> >>> Greg: >>> >>> The URLs in this note were all sent with what the ETSI machine considered >>> to be 'malformed syntax'. Could you resend the correct URLs? >> >>Just put all the parts together, removing unencoded >>spaces; the reason for the breaks after the hyphens seems >>obvious enough, but I'm at a loss to explain others. Here we go: >> >>http://docbox.etsi.org/tech-org/tiphon/Document/tiphon/07-drafts/wg5/_Published/DTS05009/V1.1.1/ts_101329-2v111p.doc >> >>http://docbox.etsi.org/tech-org/tiphon/Document/tiphon/07-drafts/wg5/_Published/DTS05003/DTS05003v096.zip >> >>http://webapp.etsi.org/tbhomepage/TBDetails.asp?TB_ID=291&TB_NAME=TIPHON >> >>http://docbox.etsi.org/tech-org/tiphon/Document/tiphon/ARCHIVES/2000/05-200012-Kyoto/WG5%20TIPHON21%20presentation%20Rev1.ppt >> >>So http://docbox.etsi.org/ is passworded but docs can be retrieved by >>advertised public direct url? Bizarre. >> >>L. >> >>PGP >> >> >> >> >> >> >> cheers jon _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 31 18:16:18 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id SAA09257 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 18:16:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD3B24449D; Thu, 31 May 2001 17:56:38 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mctbdc.mctchn (unknown [202.9.161.82]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0945443BE for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 12:35:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SKumar (172.16.0.96 [172.16.0.96]) by mctbdc.mctchn with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id L66L89VB; Thu, 31 May 2001 22:08:34 +0530 From: "S.Kumar" To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.0.29] Content-Type: text/plain MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <01060100321200.18105@SKumar> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [SIP] what UA does for a -ve response for HOLD/HOLD retrieve Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 00:27:16 +0530 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit hello all, could any one explain what a SIP UA has to do for a -ve response for a HOLD and HOLD retrieve messages. And how long a UA could remain in held state. Thanks S.Kumar _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 31 18:22:31 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id SAA09400 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 18:22:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A2ED444AE; Thu, 31 May 2001 17:56:56 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from ckmso1.proxy.att.com (ckmso1.att.com [12.20.58.69]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BDA5443A3; Thu, 31 May 2001 13:53:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gab200r1.ems.att.com ([135.37.94.32]) by ckmso1.proxy.att.com (AT&T IPNS/MSO-3.0) with ESMTP id f4VHpPC24217; Thu, 31 May 2001 13:51:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from njb140bh1.ems.att.com by gab200r1.ems.att.com (8.8.8+Sun/ATTEMS-1.4.1 sol2) id NAA00157; Thu, 31 May 2001 13:51:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by njb140bh1.ems.att.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 31 May 2001 13:51:22 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Roy, Radhika R, ALCTA" To: Fred Baker Cc: Bob Braden , gratta@lucent.com, sob@harvard.edu, mankin@isi.edu, diffserv@ietf.org, iptel@lists.bell-labs.com, issll@mercury.lcs.mit.edu, megaco@fore.com, sip@lists.bell-labs.com, sipping@ietf.org, tsvwg@ietf.org, hiramatsu.yukio@lab.ntt.co.jp, rbuhrke@lucent.com, tsg11q8@ties.itu.ch, tsg11q9@ties.itu.ch, ITU-SG16@mailbag.cps.INTEL.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: [SIP] RE: PROPOSED JOINT ACTIVITY ON A GENERIC PROTOCOL MECHANISM FOR E ND-TO-END QOS SERVICE CONTROL Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 13:51:09 -0400 Hi, Baker: It appears that a good amount discussion can be started to answer your questions (what has being discussed for the last couple of years in the ITU-T and TIPHON in particular). I am not trying to do so. Let me answer your questions summarizing the key points as follows: 1. Broadly, all applications can be considered in two categories: a. Real-time (e.g., audio, video [of H.323/SIP]) and b. Non-Real-time (e.g., data applications like file transfer, WWW, Mail, etc. - can a part of H.323/SIP). The performance parameters of both real-time (audio, video) and non-real-time (data) traffic can be abstracted in an universal way that can be used by all applications (e.g., H.323, SIP, WWW, mail, etc). However, the signaling messages used by each application are application-specific although the QOS parameters used by all of them still remain same (e.g., H.323 might use RAS/Q.931/Annex-G/H.245 signaling messages, SIP might use SDP). The QOS signaling messages that use QOS parameters can be termed as the application layer QOS signaling messages and are sent on end-to-end basis and the values of those QOS parameters do not change no matter what may be the underlying transport networks (e.g., IP, ATM). 2. The network layer QOS signaling messages carried over the network may not be end-to-end significance. For example, an end-to-end path of an IP network may consist of RSVP, DiffServ, MPLS, and RSVP. So, the network layer QOS parameters may get translated between the source-destination path and may not remain the same what has been negotiated on end-to-end basis in the application layer (item 1). The problems that are being addressed are as follows: A. How to develop the end-to-end QOS signaling mechanisms in the application layer B. How to relate the application layer QOS signaling to the network layer QOS signaling (e.g., RSVP, DifServ, MPLS, etc.) so that one-to-one consistency remain between the application and network layer QOS parameters. Hope this may clarify some of your questions. Best regards, Radhika R. Roy AT&T -----Original Message----- From: Fred Baker [mailto:fred@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 1:09 PM To: Roy, Radhika R, ALCTA Cc: Bob Braden; gratta@lucent.com; sob@harvard.edu; mankin@isi.edu; diffserv@ietf.org; iptel@lists.bell-labs.com; issll@mercury.lcs.mit.edu; megaco@fore.com; sip@lists.bell-labs.com; sipping@ietf.org; tsvwg@ietf.org; hiramatsu.yukio@lab.ntt.co.jp; rbuhrke@lucent.com; tsg11q8@ties.itu.ch; tsg11q9@ties.itu.ch; ITU-SG16@mailbag.cps.INTEL.COM Subject: RE: PROPOSED JOINT ACTIVITY ON A GENERIC PROTOCOL MECHANISM FOR E ND-TO-END QOS SERVICE CONTROL At 06:08 AM 5/31/2001, Roy, Radhika R, ALCTA wrote: >All applications (e.g., H.323, SIP) uses signaling messages >among its functional entities (e.g., terminal, agents, >gatekeepers, proxies, gateways) for communications. I'm not sure we're on the same planet. Please help me out here. I can think of a few applications that have agents, gatekeepers, proxies, and gateways, mostly resulting from the imposition of firewalls or authentication systems, or from legacy applications like imitating the telephone system in a data network. The only one that *requires* any kind of gateway, to my knowledge, is H.323 teleconferencing, which represents a paltry fraction of traffic according to most current measurements. Anything else (75% of Internet traffic is http or FTP, most of the rest is mail, on private LANs applications like NFS are pretty common, and even SIP can be done without a gateway between consenting systems) could be hooked up in separate systems on a LAN and made to work without any such signalling at all. Could you be more specific on what QoS signalling is required by the world wide web, mail, FTP, common ERP applications like ERP and PeopleSoft, calendaring, and so on? If not, could you be more specific about what "all" applications you have in mind? And could you be more specific about what issues this proposal is addressing that have not already been addressed in de facto standards and deployed in operational systems? It would be very nice to understand what you are preparing to ask vendors to do, and whether operators are interested in deploying them. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 31 18:28:33 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id SAA09488 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 18:28:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DEA5444A8; Thu, 31 May 2001 17:56:47 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from sj-msg-core-4.cisco.com (sj-msg-core-4.cisco.com [171.71.163.10]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21E354434B; Thu, 31 May 2001 13:12:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FRED-W2K.cisco.com (fred-hm-dhcp3.cisco.com [171.69.128.118]) by sj-msg-core-4.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id f4VHBBU27133; Thu, 31 May 2001 10:11:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20010531095817.04c50ea8@mira-sjcm-2.cisco.com> X-Sender: fred@mira-sjcm-2.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 To: "Roy, Radhika R, ALCTA" From: Fred Baker Cc: Bob Braden , gratta@lucent.com, sob@harvard.edu, mankin@isi.edu, diffserv@ietf.org, iptel@lists.bell-labs.com, issll@mercury.lcs.mit.edu, megaco@fore.com, sip@lists.bell-labs.com, sipping@ietf.org, tsvwg@ietf.org, hiramatsu.yukio@lab.ntt.co.jp, rbuhrke@lucent.com, tsg11q8@ties.itu.ch, tsg11q9@ties.itu.ch, ITU-SG16@mailbag.cps.INTEL.COM In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [SIP] RE: PROPOSED JOINT ACTIVITY ON A GENERIC PROTOCOL MECHANISM FOR E ND-TO-END QOS SERVICE CONTROL Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 10:09:10 -0700 At 06:08 AM 5/31/2001, Roy, Radhika R, ALCTA wrote: >All applications (e.g., H.323, SIP) uses signaling messages >among its functional entities (e.g., terminal, agents, >gatekeepers, proxies, gateways) for communications. I'm not sure we're on the same planet. Please help me out here. I can think of a few applications that have agents, gatekeepers, proxies, and gateways, mostly resulting from the imposition of firewalls or authentication systems, or from legacy applications like imitating the telephone system in a data network. The only one that *requires* any kind of gateway, to my knowledge, is H.323 teleconferencing, which represents a paltry fraction of traffic according to most current measurements. Anything else (75% of Internet traffic is http or FTP, most of the rest is mail, on private LANs applications like NFS are pretty common, and even SIP can be done without a gateway between consenting systems) could be hooked up in separate systems on a LAN and made to work without any such signalling at all. Could you be more specific on what QoS signalling is required by the world wide web, mail, FTP, common ERP applications like ERP and PeopleSoft, calendaring, and so on? If not, could you be more specific about what "all" applications you have in mind? And could you be more specific about what issues this proposal is addressing that have not already been addressed in de facto standards and deployed in operational systems? It would be very nice to understand what you are preparing to ask vendors to do, and whether operators are interested in deploying them. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. From sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 31 21:33:16 2001 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com ([204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id VAA11458 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 21:33:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 437B54433B; Thu, 31 May 2001 20:49:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: sip@lists.bell-labs.com Received: from mail.inetmail.att.net (mailhost1.inetmail.att.net [204.127.132.33]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C60E344336 for ; Thu, 31 May 2001 20:48:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashok ([12.41.17.196]) by mail.inetmail.att.net (mtiagic01) with SMTP id <20010601004844gi1282802ie>; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 00:48:44 +0000 Message-ID: <036401c0ea35$a450d120$c411290c@masconit.com> Reply-To: "Ranjit Avasarala" From: "Ranjit Avasarala" To: "S.Kumar" , References: <01060100321200.18105@SKumar> Subject: Re: [SIP] what UA does for a -ve response for HOLD/HOLD retrieve MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: sip-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: sip@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0beta6 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: IETF SIP Mailing List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: http://lists.bell-labs.com/pipermail/sip/ Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 19:56:06 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kumar, consider the following scenario: User A and User B are in a call. User A sends a mid call INVITE request to User C that places the existing call between A and B on HOLD. Now if User C sends 200 OK to User A then it implies that INVITE was successful. or if User A receives a non 200 OK response then it implies that INVITE was not successful. The depending on the type of response , corresponding action could be taken by User A. Regards Ranjit Mascon Communication Technologies http://www.masconit.com ----- Original Message ----- From: S.Kumar To: Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 1:57 PM Subject: [SIP] what UA does for a -ve response for HOLD/HOLD retrieve hello all, could any one explain what a SIP UA has to do for a -ve response for a HOLD and HOLD retrieve messages. And how long a UA could remain in held state. Thanks S.Kumar _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body. _______________________________________________ This list is for continuing development of the SIP protocol. The sip-implementor's list is the place to discuss implementation, and to receive advice on understanding existing sip. To subscribe to it, send mail to sip-implementors-request@cs.columbia.edu with "subscribe" in the body.