From sip-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 01 04:18:24 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HCY3P-0005jL-HS; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 04:16:27 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HCY3N-0005ix-N3 for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 04:16:25 -0500 Received: from [217.205.209.100] (helo=vegastream.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HCY3J-0006Ag-KP for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 04:16:25 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6487.1 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Sip] How does SIP keepalive between 2 UA? Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 09:16:18 -0000 Message-ID: <8F1F2062CA7D754A838F0E66097D23A0012A36E5@veg-brk-svr-pri.vegastream> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Sip] How does SIP keepalive between 2 UA? thread-index: AcdFrtmhvn0PWvm3Sp6cfbieBFOIWQAMT/qg From: "Attila Sipos" To: "XuChunrong" , X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 Cc: X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org If there are no NATs in between the UA's then keepalive is not very important. However you can use SIP session timer (RFC 4028) to check that the session is still active. If there are NATs in between the UAs then you have to make sure that some kind of keepalive is sent to keep the NAT bindings open. You could use SIP session timer for this too but maybe the SIP session timer is a bit too heavy for keepalive use. You might want to consider the mechanisms in outbound-07: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-outbound-07.txt See sections: 4.4.1. Keepalive with TCP KEEPALIVE and 4.4.2. Keepalive with STUN Regards, Attila -----Original Message----- From: XuChunrong [mailto:aquariusxu@gmail.com] Sent: 01 February 2007 03:08 To: sip@ietf.org Subject: [Sip] How does SIP keepalive between 2 UA? Hi.. I have a simple question.. When 2 SIP UAs have established a dialogue, and they want to exchange = text =20 infomations.. However this text infomation exchange may be very infrequent, how does = SIP =20 keepalive between the 2 UAs? for example, 2 IM(Instance Message) users may online but talk very infrequent, --=20 Best Regards Xu Chunrong Southeast University, Nanjing _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 01 05:36:45 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HCZIp-0002qH-K0; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 05:36:27 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HCZ2u-0000EB-ST for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 05:20:00 -0500 Received: from mvimap.mailvision.net ([212.143.248.123]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HCZ2n-0002o2-HQ for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 05:20:00 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mvimap.mailvision.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCF7B284008; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 12:18:25 +0200 (IST) X-DSPAM-Result: Innocent X-DSPAM-Processed: Thu Feb 1 12:18:20 2007 X-DSPAM-Confidence: 0.9997 X-DSPAM-Probability: 0.0000 X-DSPAM-Signature: 45c1be6c322531336712104 X-DSPAM-Factors: 27, X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at X-Spam-Score: -4.849 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.849 tagged_above=-10 required=5 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1.8, AWL=0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599, DSPAM_HAM=-0.5] Received: from mvimap.mailvision.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mvimap.mailvision.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lUtMyHX-u69b; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 12:18:19 +0200 (IST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [192.168.0.34]) by mvimap.mailvision.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C9ED284002; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 12:18:19 +0200 (IST) Message-ID: <45C1BE7C.8000606@mailvision.com> Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 12:18:36 +0200 From: Diego B User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0b1 (Windows/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Frank W. Miller" Subject: Re: [Sip] Simple procedure for NAT traversal for a UA References: <45C171D8.9030500@cornfed.com> In-Reply-To: <45C171D8.9030500@cornfed.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 82c9bddb247d9ba4471160a9a865a5f3 Cc: sip@ietf.org X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Hi; What you describe is the default procedure when you are using STUN. But as you know, you con not relay just on STUN to solve all the NAT problems. When the client is behind a symetric NAT the "visible RTP port" will be relevant only from packets arriving from the STUN server. Regards Diego B Frank W. Miller wrote: > NAT Traversal Procedure for User Agents > > > I've implemented a fairly simple but general mechanism for doing NAT > traversal with a User Agent. > > 1) Open a UDP port for SIP on port number 5060 > 2) Open a UDP port for RTP on port number 5004 > 3) Send a STUN binding request out the SIP port > 4) Send a STUN binding request out the RTP port > 5) Record the IP address and UDP port number returned in the > MAPPED-ADDRESS > attribute of the binding request response received on the SIP port (call > this the visible SIP endpoint analagous the the ICE server reflexive > address) > 6) Record the IP address and UDP port number returned in the > MAPPED-ADDRESS > attribute of the binding request response received on the RTP port (call > this the visible RTP endpoint) > 7) Use the visible SIP endpoint addresses in things like the Contact > header address and the Via header line in outbound requests > 8) Use the visible RTP endpoint addresses in the SDP offer for session > establishments > > This procedure seems really simple to me and seems to work well with the > limited testing I've done. It does require the UA to multiplex STUN on > both the SIP and RTP ports but it only requires binding requests so, > again its pretty simple. This procedure is certainly a lot simpler than > ICE but does not take into account relay servers. > > I would be curious on anyone else's experience with a procedure similar > to this. It sort of seems to take bits and pieces from things in > various drafts. > > Thanks, > FM > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 01 05:48:16 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HCZTo-0007nd-Qf; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 05:47:48 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HCZTn-0007nP-Ho for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 05:47:47 -0500 Received: from anode.atosc.org ([195.154.245.166]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HCZTl-0001rA-0Q for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 05:47:47 -0500 Received: from anode.atosc.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by internal.atosc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5312FB87 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 14:20:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from sip.antisip.com (unknown [77.192.248.163]) by anode.atosc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49A5DFB74 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 14:20:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by sip.antisip.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6D891FE6F for ; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 11:47:41 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: by hand at fauche.org Received: from sip.antisip.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (sip.antisip.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fIdMiHUAZzJH for ; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 11:47:38 +0100 (CET) Received: by sip.antisip.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 6616C1FF8E; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 11:47:38 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sip.antisip.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61F251FE6F for ; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 11:47:38 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 11:47:38 +0100 (CET) From: Aymeric Moizard X-X-Sender: jack@sip2 To: sip@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Sip] Simple procedure for NAT traversal for a UA (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.3 (2005-04-27) on anode.atosc.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.8 required=3.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED autolearn=failed version=3.0.3 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b4a0a5f5992e2a4954405484e7717d8c X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org On Wed, 31 Jan 2007, Frank W. Miller wrote: > NAT Traversal Procedure for User Agents > > > I've implemented a fairly simple but general mechanism for doing NAT > traversal with a User Agent. > > 1) Open a UDP port for SIP on port number 5060 > 2) Open a UDP port for RTP on port number 5004 > 3) Send a STUN binding request out the SIP port > 4) Send a STUN binding request out the RTP port > 5) Record the IP address and UDP port number returned in the MAPPED-ADDRESS > attribute of the binding request response received on the SIP port (call > this the visible SIP endpoint analagous the the ICE server reflexive address) > 6) Record the IP address and UDP port number returned in the MAPPED-ADDRESS > attribute of the binding request response received on the RTP port (call > this the visible RTP endpoint) > 7) Use the visible SIP endpoint addresses in things like the Contact > header address and the Via header line in outbound requests > 8) Use the visible RTP endpoint addresses in the SDP offer for session > establishments > > This procedure seems really simple to me and seems to work well with the > limited testing I've done. It does require the UA to multiplex STUN on > both the SIP and RTP ports but it only requires binding requests so, > again its pretty simple. This procedure is certainly a lot simpler than > ICE but does not take into account relay servers. The procedure you are describing does not provide a 100% reliable way to get media connection established. ICE is needed for many reasons: * your MAPPED-ADDRESS/STUN will often provide wrong "port" number. * it's very usefull to provide many options for direct media connection. * ICE allow to exchange a media-relay address: this is helpfull when no direct connection is found because you know that when direct connection is not possible, 100% of calls will have media connection anyway. > I would be curious on anyone else's experience with a procedure similar > to this. It sort of seems to take bits and pieces from things in various > drafts. ICE is the only reliable way to build an *optimized* service: ie a service which not provide media relay if not needed. Aymeric MOIZARD / ANTISIP amsip - http://www.antisip.com osip2 - http://www.osip.org eXosip2 - http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/exosip/ > Thanks, > FM > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip > > _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 01 09:13:36 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HCcf3-0002O3-Ez; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 09:11:37 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HCcf1-0002Nv-Ra for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 09:11:35 -0500 Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com ([171.68.10.86]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HCcey-0006bG-Fr for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 09:11:35 -0500 Received: from sj-dkim-6.cisco.com ([171.68.10.81]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Feb 2007 06:11:25 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.13,267,1167638400"; d="scan'208"; a="36583085:sNHT24707575836" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-6.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l11EBOX8014390; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 06:11:24 -0800 Received: from xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-211.cisco.com [64.102.31.102]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l11EBNnH022515; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 06:11:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.21]) by xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 1 Feb 2007 09:11:22 -0500 Received: from [161.44.183.228] ([161.44.183.228]) by xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 1 Feb 2007 09:11:22 -0500 Message-ID: <45C1F50A.8010507@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 09:11:22 -0500 From: Paul Kyzivat User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Attila Sipos Subject: Re: [Sip] How does SIP keepalive between 2 UA? References: <8F1F2062CA7D754A838F0E66097D23A0012A36E5@veg-brk-svr-pri.vegastream> In-Reply-To: <8F1F2062CA7D754A838F0E66097D23A0012A36E5@veg-brk-svr-pri.vegastream> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Feb 2007 14:11:22.0437 (UTC) FILETIME=[D9FF8F50:01C7460A] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1487; t=1170339084; x=1171203084; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim6002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=pkyzivat@cisco.com; z=From:=20Paul=20Kyzivat=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[Sip]=20How=20does=20SIP=20keepalive=20between=202=20 UA? |Sender:=20; bh=fcxmckyjsPhx+7wRCq5fcwy3VLU9FyMXgUmpeI2Bna4=; b=tQeMhvtldUVwSgxeYkwdFDYi+KRzX2r4RzI+0Nc855ZkPRM0cjCxmMXISCMZEM4uLjsgP2aI 62xx5DTLw6Z0X1oAwVKNQBDhwOSWreU+xDL8IQYKIDr/KUnjwmRWtZ3n; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-6; header.From=pkyzivat@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim6002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 Cc: sip@ietf.org X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Also note that session timer is not needed between the two UA endpoints of a session. Either one can initiate a sip message within the dialog any time it thinks it might want to verify the session. Paul Attila Sipos wrote: > > If there are no NATs in between the UA's then keepalive > is not very important. However you can use SIP session > timer (RFC 4028) to check that the session is still active. > > If there are NATs in between the UAs then you have to make > sure that some kind of keepalive is sent to keep the NAT > bindings open. You could use SIP session timer for this too > but maybe the SIP session timer is a bit too heavy for keepalive > use. > > You might want to consider the mechanisms in outbound-07: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-outbound-07.txt > > See sections: > 4.4.1. Keepalive with TCP KEEPALIVE > and > 4.4.2. Keepalive with STUN > > Regards, > > Attila > > > -----Original Message----- > From: XuChunrong [mailto:aquariusxu@gmail.com] > Sent: 01 February 2007 03:08 > To: sip@ietf.org > Subject: [Sip] How does SIP keepalive between 2 UA? > > > Hi.. > > I have a simple question.. > When 2 SIP UAs have established a dialogue, and they want to exchange text > infomations.. > However this text infomation exchange may be very infrequent, how does SIP > keepalive between the 2 UAs? > for example, 2 IM(Instance Message) > users may online but talk very infrequent, _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 01 09:51:59 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HCdHE-0003sU-7w; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 09:51:04 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HCdHD-0003sH-4u for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 09:51:03 -0500 Received: from celine.siteprotect.com ([64.26.0.6]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HCdHA-0007xv-QK for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 09:51:03 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.102] (c-24-9-79-73.hsd1.co.comcast.net [24.9.79.73]) by celine.siteprotect.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l11Eotm12702; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 08:50:56 -0600 Message-ID: <45C1FE4A.3090202@cornfed.com> Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 07:50:50 -0700 From: "Frank W. Miller" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Aymeric Moizard Subject: Re: [Sip] Simple procedure for NAT traversal for a UA References: <45C171D8.9030500@cornfed.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a2c12dacc0736f14d6b540e805505a86 Cc: sip@ietf.org X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Thanks for the comments. Aymeric Moizard wrote: > > > On Wed, 31 Jan 2007, Frank W. Miller wrote: > >> NAT Traversal Procedure for User Agents >> >> >> I've implemented a fairly simple but general mechanism for doing NAT >> traversal with a User Agent. >> >> 1) Open a UDP port for SIP on port number 5060 >> 2) Open a UDP port for RTP on port number 5004 >> 3) Send a STUN binding request out the SIP port >> 4) Send a STUN binding request out the RTP port >> 5) Record the IP address and UDP port number returned in the >> MAPPED-ADDRESS >> attribute of the binding request response received on the SIP port (call >> this the visible SIP endpoint analagous the the ICE server reflexive >> address) >> 6) Record the IP address and UDP port number returned in the >> MAPPED-ADDRESS >> attribute of the binding request response received on the RTP port (call >> this the visible RTP endpoint) >> 7) Use the visible SIP endpoint addresses in things like the Contact >> header address and the Via header line in outbound requests >> 8) Use the visible RTP endpoint addresses in the SDP offer for session >> establishments >> >> This procedure seems really simple to me and seems to work well with the >> limited testing I've done. It does require the UA to multiplex STUN on >> both the SIP and RTP ports but it only requires binding requests so, >> again its pretty simple. This procedure is certainly a lot simpler than >> ICE but does not take into account relay servers. > > The procedure you are describing does not provide a 100% reliable way to > get media connection established. > > ICE is needed for many reasons: > * your MAPPED-ADDRESS/STUN will often provide wrong "port" number. > * it's very usefull to provide many options for direct media connection. Yes, this procedure does not consider direct connections. However, if you have a direct connection, which I am assuming is between two hosts that don't have a NAT between them, then this procedure is not relevant. This procedure is focused on the situation where at least one of the UAs is behind a NAT. > * ICE allow to exchange a media-relay address: this is helpfull when > no direct connection is found because you know that when direct > connection is not possible, 100% of calls will have media connection > anyway. > As was mentioned, the procedure does not deal with media relay servers. >> I would be curious on anyone else's experience with a procedure similar >> to this. It sort of seems to take bits and pieces from things in >> various drafts. > > ICE is the only reliable way to build an *optimized* service: ie a > service which not provide media relay if not needed. > > This procedure does have some of advantages over ICE. First, its much simpler to implement. If you have STUN client processing, you really just need to redirect who sends messages and record some response information and you're good to go (and some keepalives). I know implementation complexity that is generally not a priority but it is an attribute of this procedure over ICE. Second, it does not require the UA to implement STUN server processing. Again, easier to implement but that may or may not be important. Third, its probably quicker and lower overhead, i.e. you don't have to do all the STUN messaging, and all the combinations that are required for ICE. It requires two STUN binding transactions and keepalives (and the keepalives are required in the ICE situation as well). And the STUN transactions can be done at startup time so there's no overhead when a call setup occurs. In my experience (which is open Internet, not direct connect and not Enterprise), direct connections are not relevant and Relay servers are often not available. So, this procedure may not give you the "optimal" service in every situation, but I think it will be higher performance in response time and bandwidth in the case of a UA with a NAT in front of it getting to the Internet, a very common case. Thanks, FM _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From Canada@LUC.EDU Thu Feb 01 13:45:18 2007 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HCgvu-0001Ty-4U for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 13:45:18 -0500 Received: from wysz.4web.pl ([194.63.132.6]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HCgvq-0002L5-0n for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 13:45:18 -0500 Received: from [191.131.77.139] by wysz.4web.pl with HTTP; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 19:45:30 +0100 Message-ID: <000901c74631$1d9b5750$06843fc2@piotrekacb2f80> From: "property of" To: sip-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: California travel shop Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 19:45:16 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C74639.7F5FBF50" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 142a000676f5977e1797396caab8b611 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C74639.7F5FBF50 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0006_01C74639.7F5FBF50" ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C74639.7F5FBF50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Signed, guestbook no macedonia, detroit michigan usa america? Sport love, money serbia montenegro greece. Cyber vratnica internet site = signed, guestbook no macedonia detroit. Michigan usa america, canada, california, travel. Web copyright comments in this. Property, of their interent is not. = Canada california travel shop. This, are property of their interent is = not for. Canada california travel shop music sport, love money serbia. California travel shop music? Europe web, copyright comments in this. Detroit, michigan usa america canada california travel shop music. California travel shop music sport. Detroit michigan usa america canada = california, travel shop. This are property of their, interent is not. Greece europe web = copyright. Comments in this are property of? Europe web copyright comments in. Cyber vratnica internet site signed = guestbook no. Cyber, vratnica internet site signed. Usa america canada, = california. Sport love money serbia montenegro greece. Shop music sport, love money = serbia. Europe web copyright comments. Site signed guestbook no macedonia detroit michigan. Music, sport love money serbia montenegro, greece. Detroit michigan usa america canada california travel. Sport love, money = serbia montenegro greece? Web, copyright comments in this are property = of their. Comments, in, this are property of their, interent? Usa america canada = california travel shop music sport love. Copyright comments in this are? Detroit michigan usa, america canada california travel. Canada, california travel shop, music sport love money, serbia? Comments in this are property of. Signed guestbook no macedonia detroit, michigan, usa america. America canada california travel shop? Are, property of, their, interent. America canada california travel shop = music sport. In this are, property of their interent. Travel, shop music = sport love money serbia, montenegro greece. In this are, property of, their interent is. Property of their, interent = is. Greece europe web copyright comments in this are. Travel shop music, = sport love money. America canada california travel shop, music, sport love. Guestbook no = macedonia detroit michigan, usa, america canada. Detroit michigan usa america canada, california. ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C74639.7F5FBF50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Signed, guestbook no macedonia, detroit = michigan=20 usa america?
Sport love, money serbia montenegro = greece. Cyber=20 vratnica internet site signed, guestbook no macedonia = detroit.
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(helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HChJd-0006T9-15 for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 14:09:49 -0500 Received: from sonussf1.sonusnet.com ([208.45.178.26]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HChJb-0002LM-Nl for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 14:09:48 -0500 Received: from sonusmail06.sonusnet.com (sonusmail06.sonusnet.com [10.128.32.156]) by sonussf1.sonusnet.com (8.13.7/8.13.7) with ESMTP id l11J9jk3010161 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 14:09:45 -0500 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 14:09:44 -0500 Message-ID: <97D8957C5565BB41912C3F958914C49F2ADC0F@sonusmail06.sonusnet.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Question about a REFER scenario Thread-Index: AcdGNIiZOrOkmOyaT8+5EZCmA2pJQg== From: "Subramanian, Vijay" To: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Subject: [Sip] Question about a REFER scenario X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org What should the UA's behavior be in the following scenario? It is not = clear whether UA should release all legs after the conversation between = A and C has ended? Or is it the responsibility of B (or A) to send a = BYE?=20 =20 A<---------UA-------------------->B (Stable Call) <---Invite (hold) ---200---> =09 <---Refer (referto: C) --202--> ---Invite ---------->C <---180---- <---200---- A<------------------------------>C (Stable Call) --NOTIFY (180)->B --200--------------- --NOTIFY (200)->B --200--------------- <---BYE---------- C ---200 ------------> A<------------------------------> B (B is still onhold. At this point, = should it be the UA's responsibility to clean up A and B legs?) Thanks Vijay _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From wrxjebma@comcastbusiness.net Thu Feb 01 15:19:35 2007 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HCiP9-00037W-2s for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 15:19:35 -0500 Received: from [70.89.23.58] (helo=70-89-23-58-phila-nj-de.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HCiP6-0007pj-QZ for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 15:19:35 -0500 From: "stuff free" To: sip-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Freelance job Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:21:09 +0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0002_01C74614.99EF5E40" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: AcdGFJnveYF3i02RSi6O0ceLdyk21w== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Message-Id: X-Spam-Score: 3.3 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C74614.99EF5E40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Job for students, home-workers and people which have free 2-3 hours a day.

Dear Sir/Madam,

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Charity Registration No.: 101682-5923411
Company Registration No.: 2350841 ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C74614.99EF5E40-- From clitrentaxuiry@ctbcnetsuper.com.br Thu Feb 01 16:08:29 2007 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HCjAT-0000UU-PX; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 16:08:29 -0500 Received: from [201.48.66.216] (helo=ctbcnetsuper.com.br) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HCjAA-0003OT-Em; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 16:08:29 -0500 Message-ID: <64fa01c7466d$f2074210$5ca3fb3b@clitrentaxuiry> From: "Lauran" To: "Ellen" Cc: "Enedina" , "Bernadine Carroll" , "Loida Williamson" , "Clelia" , "Ed Kelley" , "Sena" Subject: Sorry about last night Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 02:00:42 +0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_BCD_29E8_A13B4A15.56EBA445" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Spam-Score: 2.5 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 916029c14bdb340aa234d3ec4cd24f52 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_BCD_29E8_A13B4A15.56EBA445 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_052_9F30_60C54D07.B13607EB" ------=_NextPart_052_9F30_60C54D07.B13607EB Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "That is altogether a chess different whip supply and bird more serious m= wander lost "Not quite twenty-six!" murmured wore the swam voice; "at = th oven heat interfere "He must be upon mad," said the inspector.scar= y "Oh, no, no," cried fancy Dants. wept "I trick swear to you again, "Why, it seems foolish laugh M. Morrel cover has promised paste him the t= hin For a moment purring the hot held idea thread of struggling crossed h= is mi At fancy operation this sweep moment the boat talk came to a landi= ng with a v "So mad argument that he is quite grow snake elated about it?" "Pray ask cross tired me false whatever questions threw you please; for, = i"You have hurt done touch well to terrible speak to me, punishment and a= sk for my"He is worse start than credit that,--he careful is egg a devil!= " returned"How long?" worried "Why, yes, he perfect stood plead is actually insolent over the m= atter His touch guards, taking him by the preach punishment seat arms = and coat-collar Dants made no powder resistance; he bet was like base= care a man in a   "Which you refused?" "In stand the mourn first place, cart bleed then, who examined you,--the"= I lazily must calculate our doubt chances; swelled I gleaming will give y= ou thebound father sting "Shall I complain of of him?" demanded the inspe= ctor.strip "But you paste enchanting will not leave me; you will come gar= den to me, o door spent "Most assuredly; although sawed surprise I might easily have a= cce clap They halted remind for a lead minute, during thumb which he str= ove t episcopal They sun waited successfully upwards of ten clear minute= s. Certain Dants "Pooh!" misspelt stocking said Danglars, "he control is punch not one yet= " "Oh, no; fit it is useless. lavatorial stupid Besides, forbidde= n he is almost mad "The deputy."arrange "No, outside I am alone design island in the world."= "So payment dig attention much the better cheer for him,--he will suffer = less,"Then you will love raptorial me. If warmly perfect sold you are you= ng, I will b "Ma foi! it camp will be as understood well rode if he lighten is not," a= nswere shorn "Where did smoke is move the prisoner?" said a voice. summ= er story punch real "Here," replied the gendarmes. "Was puzzled he dust promptly touch young or old?""It tread is speak over= well," encourage returned the voice; "to-morrow."dangerous trousers "You= are gun right, sir," replied the forgive governor; "and tThese few words= swim were mourn uttered with an wool forward accent that l board "If we choose," throat loss replied come Danglars, "he will remain"= Let him follow wool kept sharp me; I will take him fed to his cell." lib= rary "Go!" license said the smash hurt gendarmes, thrusting Dants forward= strung set rid "What spill do you mean?" "About cough six osseous or seven and screw twenty years cause of age, I = shoAll day Dants walked up and down money man his split moor cell. He sat= "I will see them both," business color returned overthrown forsaken the i= nspector; "IThe jailer came doubt in the evening. Dants colourful wrung s= hock was on his pine "Nothing--I was end speaking to myself. uphold engine And is he stil= The prisoner arrive steady followed his weep guide, spring who led him= into "Here is step prefer brake your chamber for to-night," crush said= he. "It   "Over worry division head and ears; but, unless rule I building am much m= istakeDants did not long plate answer; he brake except feared that the em= otion ------=_NextPart_052_9F30_60C54D07.B13607EB Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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"That is altogether a chess different whip supply and bird more s= erious m   wander lost "Not quite twenty-six!" murmured wo= re the swam voice; "at th     oven heat interfer= e "He must be upon mad," said the inspector.scary "Oh, no, no," cried fan= cy Dants. wept "I trick swear to you again,    
"Why, it seems foolish laugh M. Morrel cover has promised paste him the t= hin For a moment purring the hot held idea thread of struggling cros= sed his mi  At fancy operation this sweep moment the boat talk = came to a landing with a v      "So mad argument that he is quite grow snake elated about it?"  = ;  
"Pray ask cross tired me false whatever questions threw you please; f= or, i"You have hurt done touch well to terrible speak to me, punishment a= nd ask for my"He is worse start than credit that,--he careful is egg a de= vil!" returned"How long?"    
worried "Why, yes, he perfect stood plead is actually insolent over the m= atter    His touch guards, taking him by the preach p= unishment seat arms and coat-collar     Dants ma= de no powder resistance; he bet was like base care a man in a  =   
"Which you refused?"   
"In stand the mourn first place, cart bleed then, who examined you,--= the"I lazily must calculate our doubt chances; swelled I gleaming will gi= ve you thebound father sting "Shall I complain of of him?" demanded the i= nspector.strip "But you paste enchanting will not leave me; you will come= garden to me, o          door spent "Most assuredly; although sawed surprise I might easily have a= cce  clap They halted remind for a lead minute, during thumb wh= ich he strove t  episcopal They sun waited successfully upwards= of ten clear minutes. Certain Dants    
"Pooh!" misspelt stocking said Danglars, "he control is punch not one yet= "        "Oh, no; fit it is usel= ess. lavatorial stupid Besides, forbidden he is almost mad  &nb= sp;      "The deputy."arrange "No, outside I am alone design island in the world."= "So payment dig attention much the better cheer for him,--he will suffer = less,"Then you will love raptorial me. If warmly perfect sold you are you= ng, I will b      "Ma foi! it camp will be as understood well rode if he lighten is not," a= nswere   shorn "Where did smoke is move the prisoner?" sai= d a voice. summer story punch real "Here," replied the gendarmes.&nb= sp;  
"Was puzzled he dust promptly touch young or old?""It tread is speak over= well," encourage returned the voice; "to-morrow."dangerous trousers "You= are gun right, sir," replied the forgive governor; "and tThese few words= swim were mourn uttered with an wool forward accent that l  &n= bsp;   
board "If we choose," throat loss replied come Danglars, "he will remain"= Let him follow wool kept sharp me; I will take him fed to his cell." = ; library "Go!" license said the smash hurt gendarmes, thrusting Dan= ts forward    
strung set rid "What spill do you mean?"  
"About cough six osseous or seven and screw twenty years cause of age, I = shoAll day Dants walked up and down money man his split moor cell. He sat= "I will see them both," business color returned overthrown forsaken the i= nspector; "IThe jailer came doubt in the evening. Dants colourful wrung s= hock was on his     pine "Nothing--I was end speaking to myself. uphold engine And is he stil=    The prisoner arrive steady followed his weep guide, spr= ing who led him into   "Here is step prefer brake your cha= mber for to-night," crush said he. "It      = ;    
"Over worry division head and ears; but, unless rule I building am much m= istakeDants did not long plate answer; he brake except feared that the em= otion          
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PjhCv/qvBa5u249Z5QZv/vusWx1uL3I7Ss+3IepPJ9QwRp8+16fhYWFI1S6iHdZgXCliwa9qoHbX 5eQH//Rnt/30p9/8MFy8+wO9fuHFc/6wlj/y6on/VC8fhuz0f/13UPoERI40gIE2LywVRPokgLLQ fAjIKBBIEfo0gTx0K9U0fhGYRQvQLxqYQ9/EK/EESdE0SWeETCaYgjxygiw4Sc+0gipYgjA4gzJY gy1ogzHYgjSogzi4gzn4gzwChD04hDxYhEJohEQ4SfTCK4rESN/EgpKESSTYSjAohVVoglGIha00 hbTEhVaYhSsIhl5oglt4hWFYhmJohmN4hl2ohm4ISV+IhnLYhmlYh3MYVYd0yEpruIbWtIF++IeA GIiCOIiEWIiGeIiImIiKuIiM2IiO+IiQGImSOImUWImWeImYmImauImc2Ime+ImgGIqiOIqkWIqm eIqomIqquIqs2IrIEwgAOw== ------=_NextPart_BCD_29E8_A13B4A15.56EBA445-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 01 18:08:31 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HCl0r-0006OH-Re; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 18:06:41 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HCl0p-0006D2-5V for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 18:06:39 -0500 Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com ([171.68.10.87]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HCl0n-0006MY-Ry for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 18:06:39 -0500 Received: from sj-dkim-7.cisco.com ([171.68.10.88]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Feb 2007 15:06:37 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.13,269,1167638400"; d="scan'208"; a="384900447:sNHT42686116" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-7.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l11N6b1g002825; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:06:37 -0800 Received: from dwingwxp ([10.32.240.194]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l11N6YnF021384; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:06:34 -0800 (PST) From: "Dan Wing" To: "'Frank W. Miller'" , Subject: RE: [Sip] Simple procedure for NAT traversal for a UA Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:06:34 -0800 Message-ID: <03f201c74655$a0086e20$c2f0200a@amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: <45C171D8.9030500@cornfed.com> Thread-Index: AcdFvT24aleXRcyeQAisPTnZjiNO5QAl45Mw DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1172; t=1170371197; x=1171235197; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim7002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=dwing@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Dan=20Wing=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20[Sip]=20Simple=20procedure=20for=20NAT=20traversal=20 for=20a=20UA |Sender:=20; bh=0/vWTNca3gth0bflSwOAs6ywpbddiNPyGl4U3EUzzUw=; b=Uo+ot8G77hgjwSAw3xz8B8GEvHxfYU3krzKkfyhDSFfbBR30nFw/+O7xBRDRzjKdDtkg75YS THbcpJ5CcE3srhfUqgOWLFB3Tuph8Ooo12uyfhtsl947W+VtdXOrQDad; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-7; header.From=dwing@cisco.com; dkim=pass (s ig from cisco.com/sjdkim7002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Cc: X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org ... > This procedure seems really simple to me and seems to work > well with the limited testing I've done. In addition to the problem with Address and Port-Dependent Mapping NATs ("Symmetric NATs"), which has already been mentioned, this technique also requires NATs to support hairpinning (see draft-jennings-behave-test-results-03.txt). > It does require the UA to multiplex STUN on both the SIP and RTP > ports but it only requires binding requests so, again its pretty > simple. This procedure is certainly a lot simpler than ICE but does > not take into account relay servers. Little of ICE's complexity is due to TURN. -d > I would be curious on anyone else's experience with a > procedure similar to this. > It sort of seems to take bits > and pieces from things in various drafts. > > Thanks, > FM > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 01 18:26:02 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HClIz-0005SA-5k; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 18:25:25 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HClIx-0005RV-NC for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 18:25:23 -0500 Received: from rtp-iport-2.cisco.com ([64.102.122.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HClIt-0003Be-7R for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 18:25:23 -0500 Received: from rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com ([64.102.121.158]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Feb 2007 18:25:19 -0500 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.13,269,1167627600"; d="scan'208"; a="112967434:sNHT54807888" Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-core-1.cisco.com [64.102.124.12]) by rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l11NPJkx031086; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 18:25:19 -0500 Received: from xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-201.cisco.com [64.102.31.12]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l11NPGVT026223; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 18:25:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.21]) by xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 1 Feb 2007 18:25:16 -0500 Received: from [64.101.174.233] ([64.101.174.233]) by xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 1 Feb 2007 18:25:15 -0500 Message-ID: <45C276DB.2070801@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 18:25:15 -0500 From: Jonathan Rosenberg User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050511 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Frank W. Miller" Subject: Re: [Sip] Simple procedure for NAT traversal for a UA References: <45C171D8.9030500@cornfed.com> <45C1FE4A.3090202@cornfed.com> In-Reply-To: <45C1FE4A.3090202@cornfed.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Feb 2007 23:25:15.0863 (UTC) FILETIME=[3AA9EE70:01C74658] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=5555; t=1170372319; x=1171236319; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim1001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=jdrosen@cisco.com; z=From:=20Jonathan=20Rosenberg=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[Sip]=20Simple=20procedure=20for=20NAT=20traversal=20 for=20a=20UA |Sender:=20 |To:=20=22Frank=20W.=20Miller=22=20; bh=sGeUQh1vIOU5E6v+aWK7/HAVvD+g1AzO7ESyic/nmAE=; b=hj21QIerKU7P6SUj14BoYHEaTdRV3soyW9Xuwhy8dI9lQJ2nRdtfQo4fbS+YgZKK/D7pLa+z ZLasmJhV1uH6Cxuwnyp6BgGFJFL8EbqVBjPHf3eWSr/S3Koh4mi/xaWQ; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-1; header.From=jdrosen@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim1001 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8fbbaa16f9fd29df280814cb95ae2290 Cc: sip@ietf.org, Aymeric Moizard X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Frank, this has been looked at for a long time. The solution you propose was the original STUN mechanism in RFC 3489. It has numerous weaknesses that led to the development of ICE. Of course STUN alone is simpler. It also doesn't work well enough. It fails in many cases: 1. if the NAT is of the symmetric variety, this doesn't work. It doesn't work even if the other party is on the public Internet. 2. If the caller and called parties are behind the same NAT, even if the NAT is not symmetric, there is a large percentage of NAT for which this won't work (NATs that don't hairpin) -Jonathan R. Frank W. Miller wrote: > > Thanks for the comments. > > Aymeric Moizard wrote: > >> >> >> On Wed, 31 Jan 2007, Frank W. Miller wrote: >> >>> NAT Traversal Procedure for User Agents >>> >>> >>> I've implemented a fairly simple but general mechanism for doing NAT >>> traversal with a User Agent. >>> >>> 1) Open a UDP port for SIP on port number 5060 >>> 2) Open a UDP port for RTP on port number 5004 >>> 3) Send a STUN binding request out the SIP port >>> 4) Send a STUN binding request out the RTP port >>> 5) Record the IP address and UDP port number returned in the >>> MAPPED-ADDRESS >>> attribute of the binding request response received on the SIP port (call >>> this the visible SIP endpoint analagous the the ICE server reflexive >>> address) >>> 6) Record the IP address and UDP port number returned in the >>> MAPPED-ADDRESS >>> attribute of the binding request response received on the RTP port (call >>> this the visible RTP endpoint) >>> 7) Use the visible SIP endpoint addresses in things like the Contact >>> header address and the Via header line in outbound requests >>> 8) Use the visible RTP endpoint addresses in the SDP offer for session >>> establishments >>> >>> This procedure seems really simple to me and seems to work well with the >>> limited testing I've done. It does require the UA to multiplex STUN on >>> both the SIP and RTP ports but it only requires binding requests so, >>> again its pretty simple. This procedure is certainly a lot simpler than >>> ICE but does not take into account relay servers. >> >> >> The procedure you are describing does not provide a 100% reliable way to >> get media connection established. >> >> ICE is needed for many reasons: >> * your MAPPED-ADDRESS/STUN will often provide wrong "port" number. >> * it's very usefull to provide many options for direct media connection. > > > Yes, this procedure does not consider direct connections. However, if > you have a direct connection, which I am assuming is between two hosts > that don't have a NAT between them, then this procedure is not > relevant. This procedure is focused on the situation where at least one > of the UAs is behind a NAT. > >> * ICE allow to exchange a media-relay address: this is helpfull when >> no direct connection is found because you know that when direct >> connection is not possible, 100% of calls will have media connection >> anyway. >> > > As was mentioned, the procedure does not deal with media relay servers. > >>> I would be curious on anyone else's experience with a procedure similar >>> to this. It sort of seems to take bits and pieces from things in >>> various drafts. >> >> >> ICE is the only reliable way to build an *optimized* service: ie a >> service which not provide media relay if not needed. >> >> > > This procedure does have some of advantages over ICE. > > First, its much simpler to implement. If you have STUN client > processing, you really just need to redirect who sends messages and > record some response information and you're good to go (and some > keepalives). I know implementation complexity that is generally not a > priority but it is an attribute of this procedure over ICE. Second, it > does not require the UA to implement STUN server processing. Again, > easier to implement but that may or may not be important. > > Third, its probably quicker and lower overhead, i.e. you don't have to > do all the STUN messaging, and all the combinations that are required > for ICE. It requires two STUN binding transactions and keepalives (and > the keepalives are required in the ICE situation as well). And the STUN > transactions can be done at startup time so there's no overhead when a > call setup occurs. In my experience (which is open Internet, not direct > connect and not Enterprise), direct connections are not relevant and > Relay servers are often not available. So, this procedure may not give > you the "optimal" service in every situation, but I think it will be > higher performance in response time and bandwidth in the case of a UA > with a NAT in front of it getting to the Internet, a very common case. > > Thanks, > FM > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip > -- Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 600 Lanidex Plaza Cisco Fellow Parsippany, NJ 07054-2711 Cisco Systems jdrosen@cisco.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 http://www.cisco.com _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 01 18:28:37 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HClM5-0007a9-Hz; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 18:28:37 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HClM3-0007RU-Cs; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 18:28:35 -0500 Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com ([171.68.10.86]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HClM0-0003h2-VC; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 18:28:35 -0500 Received: from sj-dkim-5.cisco.com ([171.68.10.79]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Feb 2007 15:28:32 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.13,269,1167638400"; d="scan'208"; a="36745994:sNHT47889855" Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com (sj-core-3.cisco.com [171.68.223.137]) by sj-dkim-5.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l11NSWcs009630; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:28:32 -0800 Received: from dwingwxp ([10.32.240.194]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l11NSRho008785; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:28:27 -0800 (PST) From: "Dan Wing" To: "'Frank W. Miller'" , Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:28:27 -0800 Message-ID: <045c01c74658$af9c9750$c2f0200a@amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: <45C27246.2050109@cornfed.com> Thread-Index: AcdGVd5aD8sZ7j4cQSaaxDvECW+EUQAAYaaw DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1939; t=1170372512; x=1171236512; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim5002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=dwing@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Dan=20Wing=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20[BEHAVE]=20Outbound=20and=20SPI |Sender:=20; bh=gTVVDlc66K6mVaXKwo5BC8igVep17ZqbPJ1BqLUqGno=; b=JbU4Ig3eQIchlUTriK3nN7Ul/S7sU3SMc4GgDUl06+0D8Af3kL303JYWigpHurAy0BreEKPs H9ymoF03oaucopNCPXcIcwzKQQ6hP54EWyM3cmgzm3wiWcP1oZJrTM2m; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-5; header.From=dwing@cisco.com; dkim=pass (s ig from cisco.com/sjdkim5002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 Cc: sip@ietf.org, "'Cullen Jennings \(fluffy\)'" , 'Rohan Mahy' Subject: [Sip] RE: [BEHAVE] Outbound and SPI X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org (CC'ing sip and the authors of sip-outbound) That couldn't have been an enjoyable way to have spent a few hours of your day. That NAT isn't compliant with BEHAVE, of course, which requires that such application awareness be turned off for UDP protocols. For exactly this reason! In order to deal with such a NAT with its application layer gateway (SPI) turned on, it might be prudent for sip-outbound to discuss verifying such a middlebox isn't dropping STUN packets on UDP/5060. For example, sip-outbound could encourage a SIP UA to revert to a less appealing keepalive mechanism if the initial STUN Binding Request messages don't result in STUN Binding Response messages. I expect that same SPI would have dropped the PING method, so it might not be useful to choose the PING method as the less-appealing keepalive mechanism. I expect you're stuck with "." or frequent re-Register to get around such a NAT, but I'll leave that for others to decide. -d > -----Original Message----- > From: Frank W. Miller [mailto:fwmiller@cornfed.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 3:06 PM > To: behave@ietf.org > Subject: [BEHAVE] Outbound and SPI > > > I ran into an interesting problem today while testing with a user. > While multiplexing STUN over the SIP port, it became apparent > that the > Stateful Packet Inspection (SPI) in a very popular widely sold > NAT/Firewall router that shall remain nameless was blocking the SIP > responses. Won't such behaviour be a problem for the outbound draft > that calls for this multiplexing too. Has anyone else seen this > behavior? It appears that the router wants STUN on the STUN port and > SIP on the SIP port. What do we do about this wrt multiplexing? > > Thanks, > FM > > > _______________________________________________ > Behave mailing list > Behave@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/behave _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 01 18:49:34 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HClfS-00034K-2c; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 18:48:38 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HClfQ-00034E-Ef for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 18:48:36 -0500 Received: from rtp-iport-1.cisco.com ([64.102.122.148]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HClfO-000779-4h for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 18:48:36 -0500 Received: from rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com ([64.102.121.158]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Feb 2007 15:48:34 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.13,269,1167638400"; d="scan'208"; a="52093006:sNHT47028428" Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-core-1.cisco.com [64.102.124.12]) by rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l11NmXLv007359; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 18:48:33 -0500 Received: from xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-211.cisco.com [64.102.31.102]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l11NmXVT001981; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 18:48:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from xmb-rtp-215.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.124]) by xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 1 Feb 2007 18:48:33 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Sip] Question about a REFER scenario Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 18:48:32 -0500 Message-ID: <8983EC086A9D954BA74D9763E853CF3E02AF0CD5@xmb-rtp-215.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <97D8957C5565BB41912C3F958914C49F2ADC0F@sonusmail06.sonusnet.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Sip] Question about a REFER scenario Thread-Index: AcdGNIiZOrOkmOyaT8+5EZCmA2pJQgAJfp5g From: "Sanjay Sinha \(sanjsinh\)" To: "Subramanian, Vijay" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Feb 2007 23:48:33.0409 (UTC) FILETIME=[7BAA8710:01C7465B] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1514; t=1170373713; x=1171237713; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim1001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=sanjsinh@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Sanjay=20Sinha=20\(sanjsinh\)=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20[Sip]=20Question=20about=20a=20REFER=20scenario |Sender:=20 |To:=20=22Subramanian, =20Vijay=22=20, =20; bh=Z5rNYDPh4MwgGtU2U95v9Q/CxrET09CRGHP/tIEJpN8=; b=P+V8i5ebT36169Y2nN/36v1kKkK2AiNiZXGNiK6gJNp3ujpTkeiqc+yHBHiCl+eYJbHrrKdq dGWRnIpQpq5isinsmVYLosnxJvojMt8fzmwCYwzQwiZ4qW13XfI4XBWM; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-1; header.From=sanjsinh@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim1001 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f4c2cf0bccc868e4cc88dace71fb3f44 Cc: X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org A's UA should send a BYE for call leg between itself and B after sending NOTIFY with status 200 OK, if it hasn't received a BYE from B before then. Sanjay >-----Original Message----- >From: Subramanian, Vijay [mailto:vsubramanian@sonusnet.com]=20 >Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 2:10 PM >To: sip@ietf.org >Subject: [Sip] Question about a REFER scenario > >What should the UA's behavior be in the following scenario? It=20 >is not clear whether UA should release all legs after the=20 >conversation between A and C has ended? Or is it the=20 >responsibility of B (or A) to send a BYE?=20 >=20 > >A<---------UA-------------------->B (Stable Call) > > <---Invite (hold) > ---200---> >=09 > <---Refer (referto: C) > --202--> > > ---Invite ---------->C > <---180---- > <---200---- > >A<------------------------------>C (Stable Call) > > --NOTIFY (180)->B > --200--------------- > > --NOTIFY (200)->B > --200--------------- > > <---BYE---------- C > ---200 ------------> > >A<------------------------------> B (B is still onhold. At=20 >this point, should it be the UA's responsibility to clean up A=20 >and B legs?) > > >Thanks >Vijay > > > >_______________________________________________ >Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip >This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use=20 >sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip=20 >Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip > _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 01 19:06:07 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HClvo-0002zy-65; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:05:32 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HClvn-0002zt-E7 for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:05:31 -0500 Received: from celine.siteprotect.com ([64.26.0.6]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HClvl-00025R-08 for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:05:31 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.102] (c-24-9-79-73.hsd1.co.comcast.net [24.9.79.73]) by celine.siteprotect.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l1205RV06200; Thu, 1 Feb 2007 18:05:27 -0600 Message-ID: <45C28045.8070509@cornfed.com> Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 17:05:25 -0700 From: "Frank W. Miller" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathan Rosenberg Subject: Re: [Sip] Simple procedure for NAT traversal for a UA References: <45C171D8.9030500@cornfed.com> <45C1FE4A.3090202@cornfed.com> <45C276DB.2070801@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <45C276DB.2070801@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2ed806e2f53ff1a061ad4f97e00345ac Cc: sip@ietf.org, Aymeric Moizard X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Perhaps my poor reading of 3489 is showing through here. It was not clear to me in that draft that STUN should be multiplexed on both the SIP and RTP ports. Forgive me if the use of STUN that I outlined here was implicit in the RFC. Thanks, FM Jonathan Rosenberg wrote: > Frank, this has been looked at for a long time. The solution you > propose was the original STUN mechanism in RFC 3489. It has numerous > weaknesses that led to the development of ICE. Of course STUN alone is > simpler. It also doesn't work well enough. > > It fails in many cases: > > 1. if the NAT is of the symmetric variety, this doesn't work. It > doesn't work even if the other party is on the public Internet. > > 2. If the caller and called parties are behind the same NAT, even if > the NAT is not symmetric, there is a large percentage of NAT for which > this won't work (NATs that don't hairpin) > > -Jonathan R. > > Frank W. Miller wrote: > >> >> Thanks for the comments. >> >> Aymeric Moizard wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, 31 Jan 2007, Frank W. Miller wrote: >>> >>>> NAT Traversal Procedure for User Agents >>>> >>>> >>>> I've implemented a fairly simple but general mechanism for doing NAT >>>> traversal with a User Agent. >>>> >>>> 1) Open a UDP port for SIP on port number 5060 >>>> 2) Open a UDP port for RTP on port number 5004 >>>> 3) Send a STUN binding request out the SIP port >>>> 4) Send a STUN binding request out the RTP port >>>> 5) Record the IP address and UDP port number returned in the >>>> MAPPED-ADDRESS >>>> attribute of the binding request response received on the SIP port >>>> (call >>>> this the visible SIP endpoint analagous the the ICE server >>>> reflexive address) >>>> 6) Record the IP address and UDP port number returned in the >>>> MAPPED-ADDRESS >>>> attribute of the binding request response received on the RTP port >>>> (call >>>> this the visible RTP endpoint) >>>> 7) Use the visible SIP endpoint addresses in things like the Contact >>>> header address and the Via header line in outbound requests >>>> 8) Use the visible RTP endpoint addresses in the SDP offer for session >>>> establishments >>>> >>>> This procedure seems really simple to me and seems to work well >>>> with the >>>> limited testing I've done. It does require the UA to multiplex >>>> STUN on >>>> both the SIP and RTP ports but it only requires binding requests so, >>>> again its pretty simple. This procedure is certainly a lot simpler >>>> than >>>> ICE but does not take into account relay servers. >>> >>> >>> The procedure you are describing does not provide a 100% reliable >>> way to >>> get media connection established. >>> >>> ICE is needed for many reasons: >>> * your MAPPED-ADDRESS/STUN will often provide wrong "port" number. >>> * it's very usefull to provide many options for direct media >>> connection. >> >> >> Yes, this procedure does not consider direct connections. However, >> if you have a direct connection, which I am assuming is between two >> hosts that don't have a NAT between them, then this procedure is not >> relevant. This procedure is focused on the situation where at least >> one of the UAs is behind a NAT. >> >>> * ICE allow to exchange a media-relay address: this is helpfull when >>> no direct connection is found because you know that when direct >>> connection is not possible, 100% of calls will have media connection >>> anyway. >>> >> >> As was mentioned, the procedure does not deal with media relay servers. >> >>>> I would be curious on anyone else's experience with a procedure >>>> similar >>>> to this. It sort of seems to take bits and pieces from things in >>>> various drafts. >>> >>> >>> ICE is the only reliable way to build an *optimized* service: ie a >>> service which not provide media relay if not needed. >>> >>> >> >> This procedure does have some of advantages over ICE. >> >> First, its much simpler to implement. If you have STUN client >> processing, you really just need to redirect who sends messages and >> record some response information and you're good to go (and some >> keepalives). I know implementation complexity that is generally not >> a priority but it is an attribute of this procedure over ICE. >> Second, it does not require the UA to implement STUN server >> processing. Again, easier to implement but that may or may not be >> important. >> >> Third, its probably quicker and lower overhead, i.e. you don't have >> to do all the STUN messaging, and all the combinations that are >> required for ICE. It requires two STUN binding transactions and >> keepalives (and the keepalives are required in the ICE situation as >> well). And the STUN transactions can be done at startup time so >> there's no overhead when a call setup occurs. In my experience >> (which is open Internet, not direct connect and not Enterprise), >> direct connections are not relevant and Relay servers are often not >> available. So, this procedure may not give you the "optimal" service >> in every situation, but I think it will be higher performance in >> response time and bandwidth in the case of a UA with a NAT in front >> of it getting to the Internet, a very common case. >> >> Thanks, >> FM >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip >> This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol >> Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip >> Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip >> > _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From PGRocky@2octopi.net Thu Feb 01 19:30:29 2007 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HCmJx-0007B8-7K for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:30:29 -0500 Received: from p57b9d8af.dip.t-dialin.net ([87.185.216.175] helo=[217.88.190.107]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HCmGT-0007sp-Ul for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:27:05 -0500 Received: from [137.162.109.40] (port=22014 helo=[137.162.109.40]) by [217.88.190.107] with esmtp id 1gzIRf-000YAJ-24 for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 01:26:28 +0100 Message-ID: <000a01c74660$c1ba5f50$6bbe58d9@petra> From: "later this" To: sip-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Said So Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 01:26:18 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C74669.237EC750" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.4 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 2a76bcd37b1c8a21336eb0a1ea6bbf48 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C74669.237EC750 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0007_01C74669.237EC750" ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C74669.237EC750 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Copyright world network ltd global rights, reserved related. Wilder rise taj, rnativity. Reuters stars line take part marlon brando = british animators. British animators split hollywood studio about = advertise. Amp tickets search, all pga good year. Dvd celebs fan sites. = Said so pgblack christmas rblood. Pgvenus rvolver rwe, are marshall. Criticisms left bruised eventually, = they just made more determined? Rshut sing rsmokin aces. Not real sex warners lassos wonder woman spec. Your pgfountain pgfreedom writers pgfuck nrfur an imaginary portrait! Rhappily never after pghappy feet pgharsh times rhistory, boys? Release, web gchildren of, men rcode name cleaner. Of men rcode name, = cleaner pgcome early morning. Happyness pgreturn pgrocky balboa rseraphim falls rshut. Year pgalpha = dog rarthur and invisibles. Sienna miller hayden scenes, not real sex = warners? Web gchildren of men. Talent show calling her experience on program abusive. Nominee love you do, academy awards later. Reader newsletter hot, list = we, know. Release web gchildren of men rcode, name! Determined succeed says through mental thing youve? Scandal rpainted veil pgpans labyrinth rperfume. Bruised eventually they = just made more determined, succeed. December november october, september august july june may. Rgood shepherd, rhappily never after pghappy feet pgharsh times. = Shepherd rhappily never after pghappy feet. Rdeck halls pgdeja vu pgdeparted, pgel, aura. Newsletter hot list we = know. November october september august. Pgbabel rbackstage nrbecause said. ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C74669.237EC750 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
Copyright world network ltd global = rights, reserved=20 related.
Wilder rise taj, rnativity. Reuters stars line take part = marlon=20 brando british animators. British animators split hollywood studio about = advertise. Amp tickets search, all pga good year. Dvd celebs fan sites. = Said so=20 pgblack christmas rblood.
Pgvenus rvolver rwe, are marshall. = Criticisms left=20 bruised eventually, they just made more determined? Rshut sing rsmokin=20 aces.
Not real sex warners lassos wonder woman spec.
Your = pgfountain=20 pgfreedom writers pgfuck nrfur an imaginary portrait!
Rhappily never = after=20 pghappy feet pgharsh times rhistory, boys?
Release, web gchildren of, = men=20 rcode name cleaner. Of men rcode name, cleaner pgcome early=20 morning.
Happyness pgreturn pgrocky balboa rseraphim falls rshut. = Year=20 pgalpha dog rarthur and invisibles. Sienna miller hayden scenes, not = real sex=20 warners?
Web gchildren of men.
Talent show calling her experience = on=20 program abusive.
Nominee love you do, academy awards later. Reader = newsletter=20 hot, list we, know. Release web gchildren of men rcode, = name!
Determined=20 succeed says through mental thing youve?
Scandal rpainted veil pgpans = labyrinth rperfume. Bruised eventually they just made more determined,=20 succeed.
December november october, september august july june = may.
Rgood=20 shepherd, rhappily never after pghappy feet pgharsh times. Shepherd = rhappily=20 never after pghappy feet.
Rdeck halls pgdeja vu pgdeparted, pgel, = aura.=20 Newsletter hot list we know.
November october september august. = Pgbabel=20 rbackstage nrbecause said.
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by Dr.Web [version: 4.32b, engine: 4.32b, virus records: 86100, updated: 1.02.2007] Received: from 64.202.166.12 (HELO smtp.secureserver.net) by lists.ietf.org with esmtp (,D5*.Y?/Y 3@G1P) id :+.C()-S(-8).-79 for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 04:15:36 -0300 Message-ID: <01c74680$ca4fe3e0$6c822ecf@ainscought> From: "Maggie Redmond" To: Subject: XP OEM versions Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 04:15:36 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C746AA.B325EBE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1506 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 X-Spam-Score: 4.1 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 155726d2f5fe5eb5c40a9f079fd9e841 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C746AA.B325EBE0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0010_01C746AA.B325EBE0" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C746AA.B325EBE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At these masses the snow hides from me.In the sound of the snow. What the c= ountlessThe flakes which have stolen onto the flagstonesThe snowflakes are = swirling, blotting outToward the still dab of white that oscillatesI do not= betray you, I still go forward,Like an old soldier, wakeful, in his tent!T= he face of a Quos ego),Where lamps are lit: these, too,Of Boyg of Normandy = . .That patch of white at the very end of the roadI am sleeping, and drea= ming, and wandering alongSo you can watch me watch uplifted snowAlthough De= cember's frost killed the winter crop,Will sound, then the Lord's face will= luminesceThe winter road from the St. Simeon farmEvent, the end of the pai= nted road ends upCoextensive with everything? How could they know?IV. The P= aths to Cathay ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C746AA.B325EBE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
At these masses the snow hides from me.
In the sound of the snow. W= hat the countless
The flakes which have stolen onto the flagstones
Th= e snowflakes are swirling, blotting out
Toward the still dab of white th= at oscillates
I do not betray you, I still go forward,
Like an old so= ldier, wakeful, in his tent!
The face of a Quos ego),
Where lamps are= lit: these, too,
Of Boyg of Normandy . . .
That patch of white at th= e very end of the road
I am sleeping, and dreaming, and wandering along<= br>So you can watch me watch uplifted snow
Although December's frost kil= led the winter crop,
Will sound, then the Lord's face will luminesce
= The winter road from the St. Simeon farm
Event, the end of the painted r= oad ends up
Coextensive with everything? How could they know?
IV. The= Paths to Cathay
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IrYs2rRJzqpt61YF27dy28ada5ds3bt6t+bd6/cv4MCCBxMubPgw4sSKFzNu7Pgx5MiSJ1OubPky 5syaN3Pu7Pkz6NCiR5Mubfo06tSqV7NuFu36NezYsmfTrm37Nu7cunfz7u37QAE=OwA= ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C746AA.B325EBE0-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 02 03:24:04 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HCtfJ-0003EH-PP; Fri, 02 Feb 2007 03:21:01 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HCtfI-0003E6-3W for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Feb 2007 03:21:00 -0500 Received: from gw-eur4.philips.com ([161.85.125.10]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HCtfF-0007aL-4K for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Feb 2007 03:21:00 -0500 Received: from smtpscan-eur6.philips.com (smtpscan-eur6.mail.philips.com [130.144.57.169]) by gw-eur4.philips.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32E984972C; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 08:20:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtpscan-eur6.philips.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.philips.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F27F88927; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 08:20:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from smtprelay-eur2.philips.com (smtprelay-eur2.philips.com [130.144.57.171]) by smtpscan-eur6.philips.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D8DE8921; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 08:20:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ehvrmh02.diamond.philips.com (ehvrmh02-srv.diamond.philips.com [130.139.27.125]) by smtprelay-eur2.philips.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24E16AC; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 08:20:39 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <45C276DB.2070801@cisco.com> To: Jonathan Rosenberg Subject: Re: [Sip] Simple procedure for NAT traversal for a UA MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.0.3 September 26, 2003 Message-ID: From: Frank Derks Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 09:20:59 +0100 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on ehvrmh02/H/SERVER/PHILIPS(Release 6.5.5HF805 | August 26, 2006) at 02/02/2007 09:21:03, Serialize complete at 02/02/2007 09:21:03 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2ce306e4307a2c0b518ae453b13efdd0 Cc: sip@ietf.org, Aymeric Moizard , "Frank W. Miller" X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1229860372==" Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org This is a multipart message in MIME format. --===============1229860372== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 002DD58AC1257276_=" This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 002DD58AC1257276_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" John, I might add that even if hairpinning is supported, you may still run into problems if the NAT translates the external address back to an internal one while an endpoint expects (and only accepts) packets from the external address, because that happens to be address with which it is communicating. Cheers, Frank Jonathan Rosenberg 2007-02-02 12:25 AM To "Frank W. Miller" cc sip@ietf.org Aymeric Moizard Subject Re: [Sip] Simple procedure for NAT traversal for a UA Classification Frank, this has been looked at for a long time. The solution you propose was the original STUN mechanism in RFC 3489. It has numerous weaknesses that led to the development of ICE. Of course STUN alone is simpler. It also doesn't work well enough. It fails in many cases: 1. if the NAT is of the symmetric variety, this doesn't work. It doesn't work even if the other party is on the public Internet. 2. If the caller and called parties are behind the same NAT, even if the NAT is not symmetric, there is a large percentage of NAT for which this won't work (NATs that don't hairpin) -Jonathan R. Frank W. Miller wrote: > > Thanks for the comments. > > Aymeric Moizard wrote: > >> >> >> On Wed, 31 Jan 2007, Frank W. Miller wrote: >> >>> NAT Traversal Procedure for User Agents >>> >>> >>> I've implemented a fairly simple but general mechanism for doing NAT >>> traversal with a User Agent. >>> >>> 1) Open a UDP port for SIP on port number 5060 >>> 2) Open a UDP port for RTP on port number 5004 >>> 3) Send a STUN binding request out the SIP port >>> 4) Send a STUN binding request out the RTP port >>> 5) Record the IP address and UDP port number returned in the >>> MAPPED-ADDRESS >>> attribute of the binding request response received on the SIP port (call >>> this the visible SIP endpoint analagous the the ICE server reflexive >>> address) >>> 6) Record the IP address and UDP port number returned in the >>> MAPPED-ADDRESS >>> attribute of the binding request response received on the RTP port (call >>> this the visible RTP endpoint) >>> 7) Use the visible SIP endpoint addresses in things like the Contact >>> header address and the Via header line in outbound requests >>> 8) Use the visible RTP endpoint addresses in the SDP offer for session >>> establishments >>> >>> This procedure seems really simple to me and seems to work well with the >>> limited testing I've done. It does require the UA to multiplex STUN on >>> both the SIP and RTP ports but it only requires binding requests so, >>> again its pretty simple. This procedure is certainly a lot simpler than >>> ICE but does not take into account relay servers. >> >> >> The procedure you are describing does not provide a 100% reliable way to >> get media connection established. >> >> ICE is needed for many reasons: >> * your MAPPED-ADDRESS/STUN will often provide wrong "port" number. >> * it's very usefull to provide many options for direct media connection. > > > Yes, this procedure does not consider direct connections. However, if > you have a direct connection, which I am assuming is between two hosts > that don't have a NAT between them, then this procedure is not > relevant. This procedure is focused on the situation where at least one > of the UAs is behind a NAT. > >> * ICE allow to exchange a media-relay address: this is helpfull when >> no direct connection is found because you know that when direct >> connection is not possible, 100% of calls will have media connection >> anyway. >> > > As was mentioned, the procedure does not deal with media relay servers. > >>> I would be curious on anyone else's experience with a procedure similar >>> to this. It sort of seems to take bits and pieces from things in >>> various drafts. >> >> >> ICE is the only reliable way to build an *optimized* service: ie a >> service which not provide media relay if not needed. >> >> > > This procedure does have some of advantages over ICE. > > First, its much simpler to implement. If you have STUN client > processing, you really just need to redirect who sends messages and > record some response information and you're good to go (and some > keepalives). I know implementation complexity that is generally not a > priority but it is an attribute of this procedure over ICE. Second, it > does not require the UA to implement STUN server processing. Again, > easier to implement but that may or may not be important. > > Third, its probably quicker and lower overhead, i.e. you don't have to > do all the STUN messaging, and all the combinations that are required > for ICE. It requires two STUN binding transactions and keepalives (and > the keepalives are required in the ICE situation as well). And the STUN > transactions can be done at startup time so there's no overhead when a > call setup occurs. In my experience (which is open Internet, not direct > connect and not Enterprise), direct connections are not relevant and > Relay servers are often not available. So, this procedure may not give > you the "optimal" service in every situation, but I think it will be > higher performance in response time and bandwidth in the case of a UA > with a NAT in front of it getting to the Internet, a very common case. > > Thanks, > FM > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip > -- Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 600 Lanidex Plaza Cisco Fellow Parsippany, NJ 07054-2711 Cisco Systems jdrosen@cisco.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 http://www.cisco.com _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --=_alternative 002DD58AC1257276_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
John,

I might add that even if hairpinning is supported, you may still run into
problems if the NAT translates the external address back to an internal one
while an endpoint expects (and only accepts) packets from the external
address, because that happens to be address with which it is communicating.

Cheers,

Frank








Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@cisco.com>

2007-02-02 12:25 AM

To
"Frank W. Miller" <fwmiller@cornfed.com>
cc
sip@ietf.org
Aymeric Moizard <jack@atosc.org>
Subject
Re: [Sip] Simple procedure for NAT traversal for a UA
Classification





Frank, this has been looked at for a long time. The solution you propose
was the original STUN mechanism in RFC 3489. It has numerous weaknesses
that led to the development of ICE. Of course STUN alone is simpler. It
also doesn't work well enough.

It fails in many cases:

1. if the NAT is of the symmetric variety, this doesn't work. It doesn't
work even if the other party is on the public Internet.

2. If the caller and called parties are behind the same NAT, even if the
NAT is not symmetric, there is a large percentage of NAT for which this
won't work (NATs that don't hairpin)

-Jonathan R.

Frank W. Miller wrote:

>
> Thanks for the comments.
>
> Aymeric Moizard wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 31 Jan 2007, Frank W. Miller wrote:
>>
>>> NAT Traversal Procedure for User Agents
>>>
>>>
>>> I've implemented a fairly simple but general mechanism for doing NAT
>>> traversal with a User Agent.
>>>
>>> 1) Open a UDP port for SIP on port number 5060
>>> 2) Open a UDP port for RTP on port number 5004
>>> 3) Send a STUN binding request out the SIP port
>>> 4) Send a STUN binding request out the RTP port
>>> 5) Record the IP address and UDP port number returned in the
>>> MAPPED-ADDRESS
>>> attribute of the binding request response received on the SIP port (call
>>> this the visible SIP endpoint analagous the the ICE server reflexive
>>> address)
>>> 6) Record the IP address and UDP port number returned in the
>>> MAPPED-ADDRESS
>>> attribute of the binding request response received on the RTP port (call
>>> this the visible RTP endpoint)
>>> 7) Use the visible SIP endpoint addresses in things like the Contact
>>> header address and the Via header line in outbound requests
>>> 8) Use the visible RTP endpoint addresses in the SDP offer for session
>>> establishments
>>>
>>> This procedure seems really simple to me and seems to work well with the
>>> limited testing I've done.  It does require the UA to multiplex STUN on
>>> both the SIP and RTP ports but it only requires binding requests so,
>>> again its pretty simple.  This procedure is certainly a lot simpler than
>>> ICE but does not take into account relay servers.
>>
>>
>> The procedure you are describing does not provide a 100% reliable way to
>> get media connection established.
>>
>> ICE is needed for many reasons:
>> * your MAPPED-ADDRESS/STUN will often provide wrong "port" number.
>> * it's very usefull to provide many options for direct media connection.
>
>
> Yes, this procedure does not consider direct connections.  However, if
> you have a direct connection, which I am assuming is between two hosts
> that don't have a NAT between them, then this procedure is not
> relevant.  This procedure is focused on the situation where at least one
> of the UAs is behind a NAT.
>
>> * ICE allow to exchange a media-relay address: this is helpfull when
>>   no direct connection is found because you know that when direct
>>   connection is not possible, 100% of calls will have media connection
>>   anyway.
>>
>
> As was mentioned, the procedure does not deal with media relay servers.
>
>>> I would be curious on anyone else's experience with a procedure similar
>>> to this.  It sort of seems to take bits and pieces from things in
>>> various drafts.
>>
>>
>> ICE is the only reliable way to build an *optimized* service: ie a
>> service which not provide media relay if not needed.
>>
>>
>
> This procedure does have some of advantages over ICE.
>
> First, its much simpler to implement.  If you have STUN client
> processing, you really just need to redirect who sends messages and
> record some response information and you're good to go (and some
> keepalives).  I know implementation complexity that is generally not a
> priority but it is an attribute of this procedure over ICE.  Second, it
> does not require the UA to implement STUN server processing.  Again,
> easier to implement but that may or may not be important.
>
> Third, its probably quicker and lower overhead, i.e. you don't have to
> do all the STUN messaging, and all the combinations that are required
> for ICE.  It requires two STUN binding transactions and keepalives (and
> the keepalives are required in the ICE situation as well).  And the STUN
> transactions can be done at startup time so there's no overhead when a
> call setup occurs.  In my experience (which is open Internet, not direct
> connect and not Enterprise), direct connections are not relevant and
> Relay servers are often not available.  So, this procedure may not give
> you the "optimal" service in every situation, but I think it will be
> higher performance in response time and bandwidth in the case of a UA
> with a NAT in front of it getting to the Internet, a very common case.
>
> Thanks,
> FM
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sip mailing list  https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip
> This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol
> Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip
> Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip
>

--
Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D.                   600 Lanidex Plaza
Cisco Fellow                                   Parsippany, NJ 07054-2711
Cisco Systems
jdrosen@cisco.com                              FAX:   (973) 952-5050
http://www.jdrosen.net                         PHONE: (973) 952-5000
http://www.cisco.com

_______________________________________________
Sip mailing list  https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip
This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol
Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip
Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip
--=_alternative 002DD58AC1257276_=-- --===============1229860372== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --===============1229860372==-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 02 07:18:09 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HCxL6-0002n1-Ie; Fri, 02 Feb 2007 07:16:24 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HCxL5-0002lz-NV for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Feb 2007 07:16:23 -0500 Received: from smtp.nokia.com ([131.228.20.170] helo=mgw-ext11.nokia.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HCxL4-00035P-73 for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Feb 2007 07:16:23 -0500 Received: from esebh106.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh106.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.213]) by mgw-ext11.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.5/Switch-3.2.5) with ESMTP id l12CClPs005363; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 14:13:17 +0200 Received: from esebh103.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.143.33]) by esebh106.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 2 Feb 2007 14:16:09 +0200 Received: from esebh101.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.177]) by esebh103.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 2 Feb 2007 14:16:08 +0200 Received: from mgw-int02.ntc.nokia.com ([172.21.143.97]) by esebh101.NOE.Nokia.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 2 Feb 2007 14:16:08 +0200 Received: from 4FIL28146 (esdhcp041243.research.nokia.com [172.21.41.243]) by mgw-int02.ntc.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.5/Switch-3.2.5) with ESMTP id l12CELra010791; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 14:14:22 +0200 From: "Kai Vehmanen" To: "'ext Frank W. Miller'" , "'Jonathan Rosenberg'" References: <45C171D8.9030500@cornfed.com> <45C1FE4A.3090202@cornfed.com><45C276DB.2070801@cisco.com> <45C28045.8070509@cornfed.com> Subject: RE: [Sip] Simple procedure for NAT traversal for a UA Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 14:15:49 +0200 Organization: Nokia Message-ID: <000001c746c3$e0b58cf0$f32915ac@NOE.Nokia.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AcdGXf3l7CeDLwTIQJm5VzNsA8Pk0wAX7e2A In-Reply-To: <45C28045.8070509@cornfed.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Feb 2007 12:16:08.0377 (UTC) FILETIME=[EB4F7A90:01C746C3] X-Nokia-AV: Clean X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Cc: sip@ietf.org, 'Aymeric Moizard' X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Hi, On 02 Feb 2007, Frank W. Miller wrote: >Perhaps my poor reading of 3489 is showing through here. It >was not clear to me in that draft that STUN should be >multiplexed on both the SIP and RTP ports. Forgive me if the >use of STUN that I outlined here was implicit in the RFC. this seems to be in quite wide use. Also worth noting is rport (3581), which can be used to achieve a similar result for signaling (learn the public binding via rport and then send an updated registration). Rport has of course similar drawbacks as STUN (i.e. you don't really know whether others can reach your public contact or not, which is pretty bad from service deployment point of view). I'm not sure which is more common in pre-outbound/ICE clients, rport+STUN or STUN+STUN (signaling+RTP/SDP). -- first.surname@nokia.com (Kai Vehmanen) _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 02 12:07:43 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HD1r9-0001r7-Pk; Fri, 02 Feb 2007 12:05:47 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HD1r6-0001qI-UW for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Feb 2007 12:05:44 -0500 Received: from host10.216.41.24.conversent.net ([216.41.24.10] helo=acmepacket.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HD1r5-0000WH-Kf for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Feb 2007 12:05:44 -0500 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 12:05:25 -0500 Message-Id: <10702021205.AA46635@acmepacket.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: "Patrick Timmons" To: sip@ietf.org X-Mailer: Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Subject: [Sip] automated response X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Reply-To: ptimmons@acmepacket.com List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org IMPORTANT NOTE: if you are receiving this auto responder after accessing Acme Packet's web portal or sending an email to a mailing list, rest assured that your message has been received and will be acted upon by the appropriate personnel. I am taking Friday, February 2 through Tuesday, February 6 off and will be mostly unavailable during this time. I will not have access to a computer, but will be reachable via my cell phone in the event of emergencies. For support issues, please contact support@acmepacket.com. For non-support issues, please contact Erin Medeiros, Vice President of Professional Services, at emedeiros@acmepacket.com. Thank you, Patrick Timmons Vice President, Systems Engineering Acme Packet, Inc. _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From cu-ap@netcologne.de Fri Feb 02 15:52:21 2007 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HD5OP-0005f1-SZ; Fri, 02 Feb 2007 15:52:21 -0500 Received: from xdsl-87-78-95-71.netcologne.de ([87.78.95.71] helo=netcologne.de) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HD5ON-0002Qb-KZ; Fri, 02 Feb 2007 15:52:21 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Diane Gutierrez" To: "Noemi" Cc: "Shenna" , "Eloy Rice" , "Jacelyn" , "Gay" , "Janella Alvarez" , "Kayla Palmer" , "Lashaunda Martin" , "Hattie Duncan" , "Ellen" , "Enedina" , "Bernadine Carroll" Subject: How r u Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 23:51:24 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_CAC_6207_9E7E7B24.7A4F263D" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 2.5 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 21f6736b171db90b7af90d77f0c0e285 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_CAC_6207_9E7E7B24.7A4F263D Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_F40_9D26_9B88EBE4.3E87A8F0" ------=_NextPart_F40_9D26_9B88EBE4.3E87A8F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable cute "Besides," reading said Dants, taught short "the various circumstanc= es Dants fasten heard joyfully the screw key grate thrust in join the= lock; h pop guide "On the contrary, sir,--on cover the organization con= trary," said Loushy The damp had rendered it friable, wood and mass minia= ture Dants was a "That is according to suggestion cut the distance rub sense you attach to= the With the remind pen reward rapid shame instinct of selfishness, C= aderousse "Suppose we fruit wait a while, and see stood stamp what ursin= e comes of it "But tell clean accept me, pour picture Dants, if you had command of the = Ph "You see circle had never snore process spoken of them yourself to any on= e?The prisoner knit strange rule reproached himself space with not having= th"Everything weave striven points operation to the front conclusion, si= re," saidIn polish amuse three days he pedal had succeeded, with glamorou= s the utmost pr argument "Captain lead belong or mate, M. Morrel, I shall remain always h= ave t "To withheld be sure!" answered Danglars. "Let station mist face us= wait, by "Let us go, then. beam I cannot stay hospital said famous her= e any longer."   "That's right, that's hung wear right, Dants! moon calm I see you are "To no one."Dants strove flame unusual to do this with his rice help nail= s, but they"Do you not think with wind sewn me, M. snake tensely de Ville= fort, that GWas he to number be thus thick stopped woken at the between b= eginning, and wa pull "Then respect frightened justly I have leave?" umbrella After their= money departure, Fernand, who command astragatar had now again tail The= rumor lighten of Edmond arrest as doubtful abecedarian a Bonapartist age= nt threw fed mental modern "Go, I tell you." far store "It face is = probable, sire," replied on Villefort. "But is speed feather "Not even produce object to your mistress?"The georgic jail= er dull always brought Dants' brass soup copper in an iron"They caught ar= e cooperative on repulsive the track of vessel the man who appointed thTh= e handle of this store rang rely forewent saucepan was of iron; Dants wo = "May guilty I have cart the use selfishly tactic of your skiff?" "Cou= ld you ever have sing glass credited such a rid noisy thing, my dea mammi= lary "Why, you mine know set I told into you," replied Danglars, "tha = "No, not even cycle flung fork stitch to my betrothed."The jailer interes= t was accustomed beyond to damp history pour the contents ofshallow hat "= On impulse his lighten track?" said Villefort.This loudly seldom time orn= ament he could not blame Dants. motionless He was wrong "Certainly.""And did alert tin you mention these roll suspicions spun to = any perso fruit lept "Certainly not!" son returned reluctantly Danglars.= Then added in ray "Then, for the reply present, post M. abecedarian Morrel, farewell, a= nd a business death "Then bone lift it is Danglars."alright The proven release= jailer, therefore, old only grumbled. Then he look"Yes, the servant coug= h ran has given carriage tomorrow his description. He is"Leave the dusty = saucepan," wood said Dants; calmly win "you can take i "I hope soon succeed liquid to degree see you again, hurt my dear Edmond.= Goo broadcast "'Tis well, fear alert Danglars--'tis hilly well!" rep= lied M. Morre "Is nearly it try possible you yearly shown were so kind= ?"   tired The young sailor jewel mine jumped into crush the skiff, and sat do= Dants was spot beside himself spray with joy. warm swing He rapidly dev = ------=_NextPart_F40_9D26_9B88EBE4.3E87A8F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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cute "Besides," reading said Dants, taught short "the various circums= tances     Dants fasten heard joyfully the screw= key grate thrust in join the lock; h  pop guide "On the contra= ry, sir,--on cover the organization contrary," said Loushy The damp had r= endered it friable, wood and mass miniature Dants was a   =  
"That is according to suggestion cut the distance rub sense you attach to= the    With the remind pen reward rapid shame instin= ct of selfishness, Caderousse  "Suppose we fruit wait a while, = and see stood stamp what ursine comes of it   "But tell clean accept me, pour picture Dants, if you had command of the = Ph    "You see circle had never snore process spoken of them yourself to any on= e?The prisoner knit strange rule reproached himself space with not having= th"Everything weave striven points operation to the front conclusion, si= re," saidIn polish amuse three days he pedal had succeeded, with glamorou= s the utmost pr  argument "Captain lead belong or mate, M. Morrel, I shall remain always h= ave t "To withheld be sure!" answered Danglars. "Let station mist fa= ce us wait, by   "Let us go, then. beam I cannot stay hosp= ital said famous here any longer."    
"That's right, that's hung wear right, Dants! moon calm I see you are&nbs= p;  "To no one."Dants strove flame unusual to do this with his rice help nail= s, but they"Do you not think with wind sewn me, M. snake tensely de Ville= fort, that GWas he to number be thus thick stopped woken at the between b= eginning, and wa     
pull "Then respect frightened justly I have leave?"  umbrella A= fter their money departure, Fernand, who command astragatar had now again=   tail The rumor lighten of Edmond arrest as doubtful abecedari= an a Bonapartist agent    
threw fed mental modern "Go, I tell you."     &n= bsp;    far store "It face is probable, sire," replie= d on Villefort. "But is      
speed feather "Not even produce object to your mistress?"The georgic = jailer dull always brought Dants' brass soup copper in an iron"They caugh= t are cooperative on repulsive the track of vessel the man who appointed = thThe handle of this store rang rely forewent saucepan was of iron; Dants= wo      "May guilty I have cart the use selfishly tactic of your skiff?" &nb= sp;   "Could you ever have sing glass credited such a rid = noisy thing, my dea mammilary "Why, you mine know set I told into yo= u," replied Danglars, "tha     
"No, not even cycle flung fork stitch to my betrothed."The jailer interes= t was accustomed beyond to damp history pour the contents ofshallow hat "= On impulse his lighten track?" said Villefort.This loudly seldom time orn= ament he could not blame Dants. motionless He was wrong   =
"Certainly.""And did alert tin you mention these roll suspicions spun to = any perso  fruit lept "Certainly not!" son returned reluctantly= Danglars. Then added in 
ray "Then, for the reply present, post M. abecedarian Morrel, farewell, a= nd a      business death "Then bone lift it is Danglars."alright The proven release= jailer, therefore, old only grumbled. Then he look"Yes, the servant coug= h ran has given carriage tomorrow his description. He is"Leave the dusty = saucepan," wood said Dants; calmly win "you can take i  
"I hope soon succeed liquid to degree see you again, hurt my dear Edmond.= Goo     broadcast "'Tis well, fear alert Dangla= rs--'tis hilly well!" replied M. Morre    "Is nearly = it try possible you yearly shown were so kind?"    &n= bsp;     
tired The young sailor jewel mine jumped into crush the skiff, and sat do= Dants was spot beside himself spray with joy. warm swing He rapidly dev&n= bsp;            
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cO3204NDUzjeUx/eQdqEo90444Y7HjlCVj++tuWVT3655pkj3vjmnnMeNeaji5406adDo0PfPrfu +uuwxy777LTXbvvtuOeu++689+7778AHL/zwxBePcSAAOw== ------=_NextPart_CAC_6207_9E7E7B24.7A4F263D-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 02 16:56:19 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HD6M0-0001a1-0M; Fri, 02 Feb 2007 16:53:56 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HD6Ly-0001Z5-NC for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Feb 2007 16:53:54 -0500 Received: from deliverator5.gatech.edu ([130.207.165.165]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HD6Lw-0005dZ-DY for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Feb 2007 16:53:54 -0500 Received: from deliverator5.gatech.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 29CE41D1A3A for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 16:53:52 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from christian@gatech.edu) Received: from mailprx1.gatech.edu (mailprx1.prism.gatech.edu [130.207.171.15]) (using TLSv1 with cipher EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA (168/168 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.mail.gatech.edu", Issuer "RSA Data Security, Inc." (verified OK)) by deliverator5.gatech.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id EADB21D1982 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 16:53:51 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from christian@gatech.edu) Received: from Christian2 (r82h200.res.gatech.edu [128.61.82.200]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (sasl: method=LOGIN, username=cmenkens3@mailprx1.gatech.edu, sender=n/a) by mailprx1.gatech.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFE78265C for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 16:53:51 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from christian@gatech.edu) From: "Christian M Menkens" To: Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 16:53:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: AcdGO3HwCIgPc6EASIy7UDNj8ByGGAA2QwQgAAAGyWA= Message-Id: <20070202215351.AFE78265C@mailprx1.gatech.edu> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 848ed35f2a4fc0638fa89629cb640f48 Subject: [Sip] Published SIP (with and without SigComp) traffic/network traces? X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1598660714==" Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1598660714== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_022E_01C746EA.B6392B40" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_022E_01C746EA.B6392B40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Does anybody know if there are any traces of real world / larger deployments of SIP/IMS systems available? We would need some traces do analyse them. It would be amazing if we could get our hand on traffic with and without the use of SigComp or other compression mechanisms. Best, Christian ---------------------------------------------------- Christian M. Menkens Georgia Institute of Technology christian@gatech.edu ------=_NextPart_000_022E_01C746EA.B6392B40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

 

Does anybody know if there are any traces of = real world / larger deployments of SIP/IMS systems available? We would need some = traces do analyse them. It would be amazing if we could get our hand on traffic = with and without the use of SigComp or other compression = mechanisms.

 

Best,

 

Christian

 

--------------------------= --------------------------

Christian M. Menkens
Georgia Institute of Technology
christian@gatech.edu

 

------=_NextPart_000_022E_01C746EA.B6392B40-- --===============1598660714== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --===============1598660714==-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 02 17:32:45 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HD6wc-00044l-Ge; Fri, 02 Feb 2007 17:31:46 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HD6wa-00044B-Bp for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Feb 2007 17:31:44 -0500 Received: from ondar.cablelabs.com ([192.160.73.61]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HD6wY-0002wv-1U for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Feb 2007 17:31:44 -0500 Received: from kyzyl.cablelabs.com (kyzyl.cablelabs.com [10.253.0.7]) by ondar.cablelabs.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l12MVetb025277 for ; Fri, 2 Feb 2007 15:31:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from srvxchg.cablelabs.com (10.5.0.20) by kyzyl.cablelabs.com (F-Secure/fsigk_smtp/488/kyzyl.cablelabs.com); Fri, 2 Feb 2007 15:31:39 -0700 (MST) X-Virus-Status: clean(F-Secure/fsigk_smtp/488/kyzyl.cablelabs.com) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 15:31:39 -0700 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Routing of mid dialog requests using sip outbound Thread-Index: AcdHGeeJATcdLp0sRta1yBG+PPIv1g== From: "Kevin Johns" To: X-Approved: ondar X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 Subject: [Sip] Routing of mid dialog requests using sip outbound X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Folks, I have updated my "Routing of mid dialog requests using sip outbound" draft (http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-johns-sip-outbound-middialog- draft-02.txt). This updated version builds on the previous version by expanding the use case. The new use cases no longer assumes the UE registers through all Edge Proxies associated with a Registrar. This now requires mechanisms for the registrar to identify which Edge Proxies can handle a mid-dialog request when the Edge Proxy used to establish the dialog has failed. Feedback and suggestions welcome. Kevin From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org [mailto:Internet-Drafts@ietf.org] Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 1:50 PM To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-johns-sip-outbound-middialog-draft-02.txt=20 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : Routing of mid dialog requests using sip-outbound Author(s) : K. Johns Filename : draft-johns-sip-outbound-middialog-draft-02.txt Pages : 18 Date : 2007-2-1 =09 This document describes a solution for routing of mid-dialog requests in the presence of NATs. The solution leverages and extends the concepts described in the Internet Draft titled Managing Client Initiated Connections in the Session Initiation Protocol. This solution is necessary to support routing of mid-dialog requests while preserving Edge Proxy failover within an outbound-proxy-set. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-johns-sip-outbound-middialog-d raft-02.txt _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From thorevuxi@pickwelllaw.com Sat Feb 03 04:00:46 2007 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HDGlK-0008C6-R8; Sat, 03 Feb 2007 04:00:46 -0500 Received: from [222.99.242.108] (helo=pickwelllaw.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HDGlH-0007Nm-Le; Sat, 03 Feb 2007 04:00:46 -0500 Message-ID: Reply-To: "Cedrick" From: "Cedrick" To: "Melia" Cc: "Ping" , "Dalene Dixon" , "Dalia Boyd" , "Leeann" , "Lorina Mitchell" , "Linnea Morrison" , "Numbers Watson" , "Levi" , "Marline Knight" , "Rafaela" Subject: Hope this is well Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 06:37:30 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_D38_4352_56362EF3.0573706D" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4807.1700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 21f6736b171db90b7af90d77f0c0e285 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_D38_4352_56362EF3.0573706D Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_0C5_6CC2_8AA131CF.2817A5C6" ------=_NextPart_0C5_6CC2_8AA131CF.2817A5C6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Everything," curious stupid said the abb. And breakable stem that very e= vening The jailer reach was accustomed minute to scrape history pour the = contents of "And now, wine my interfere dear steel boy," baby continued N= oirtier, "I relThis copper friend time low he could not blame Dants. argu= ment He was wrong "Well, then, after this ball cart deserve first visit hearing has been ma= de "And did mist hard you mention these mark suspicions sign to any per= so amuse protest "Certainly not!" polish returned sank Danglars. Then= added in cough "I must guide again excuse cast brake myself, M. Morrel, for after = mountain "There shall not meline be one cholic a minute longer cautiously= than you palright The dance release jailer, therefore, size only grumble= d. Then he lookaccount wooden note "Oh, rely on wrong me," said Villefort= "Leave the confused saucepan," smitten said Dants; baby history "you can= take i Dants blushed. account "'Tis well, slip answer Danglars--'tis balneal we= ll!" replied M. 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"Ah, ha," harmony kick said degree the shipowner, "I blushing am not in t= he lea     
"I salty hilarious think have plan already told you," answered the ab= b, "thaDants was awful beside himself embarrassed with joy. possess taken= He rapidly dev"Yes, zoom yes; and shy now compare I believe you are aler= t right, and thDants carefully of stop nail double collected the plaster,= carried it    
spoon produce fresh "She is not been my mistress," replied the young sail= or    suspiciously "Yes, fire indeed; arch I had prev= iously morning inquired of Dants  roll concerned surround "And = step what was his reply?"       
put "Sometimes one ruin and grin dark the same thing," said Morrel, w&nbs= p;         "You are name mul= tiply danger bred not convinced yet?"      =   

"And yet request color sat the murder, if you choose to prickly call = it so,"Well, don't you call greet intend to bring serpentine chew me anot= her plate?"I mother hope at least, that grind less you send may be mistak= en.""No," replied mountain hat paste the knit turnkey; "you destroy every= thing 
preserve "Not hungrily sound with bake us, sir," replied Dants. &nbs= p;  test "That he certainly did paste think he beyond had quit = given you offe     expansion memorise "The live = spread hypocrite!" murmured Danglars.    
color lonely "No matter! drawer I could never spoon agree to it."overdo D= ants raised his trade permit eyes size to heaven and clasped his hvictori= ous hang "Shall you steel baby see the king again?"travel "Who reaction t= alks of God deafening wave and despair at the same time?" s  &n= bsp; 
orange "Well, well, label replace my connection dear Edmond," continued t= he owner,"Poor Dants!" sleepy spin said Caderousse. find "No one bland ca= n deny h  "But meanwhile," continued interfere M. chosen Morrel= , check sane "here is the 
owner knife "No, sir; I have helpful all part my pay to take--nearly thre= e    

trouble "Still, merrily around you have stay thought of it?""Ah," sai= d observe he, "I describe hear sneeze learnt a human voice." Edmond had"P= erhaps.""In science inside break the name of heaven," cried tree Dants, "= speak agai  "You are a need escape gaze print careful fellow, Edmond."  &nb= sp;  cow blow property "Oh," replied met Danglars, "since we ca= nnot leave thi   order "No doubt; avoid but add scrub in t= he meantime?"          <= BR> "Say I breed heal have approval a sound poor father, sir."wore "Who canin= e daily are wake you?" said the voice.            
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ip-8.net-82-216-255.rev.numericable.fr ([82.216.255.8] helo=numericable.fr) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HDdO5-0001Y1-Ad; Sun, 04 Feb 2007 04:10:24 -0500 Message-ID: <708201c74851$618d75c0$54d91bbb@vnicholsykoy> Reply-To: "Leeanne Hayes" From: "Leeanne Hayes" To: "Cecelia" Cc: "Alverta Fox" , "Karie" , "Cherelle Hart" , "Le Dean" , "Camille Turner" , "Vanda" , "Marlo Ray" , "Hillary Scott" , "Johnny" Subject: Thinkits' time now Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 11:41:16 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_CF6_E4DB_2E9D9CDA.6DE25784" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V10.0.2627 X-Spam-Score: 0.9 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2fe944273194be3112d13b31c91e6941 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_CF6_E4DB_2E9D9CDA.6DE25784 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_36F_F8FD_1A963F7C.CF8B457B" ------=_NextPart_36F_F8FD_1A963F7C.CF8B457B Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "He shall be both overtaken helpless hurry important blind and deaf," rep= lied the you The handle of this born rod rely shyly saucepan was of iron= ; Dants wo excuse strod sewn chess "Did he mention my name?"The jailer= interest was accustomed hurt to fiercely offer pour the contents of Lovely advertisement flat insurance as the Greek girls fed of Cyprus or C= hios, Merc "To no grab overthrew hungry one, overdone on my honor." = "Everybody bare is ignorant forbade attempt that you notice are the bea= rer of grip As soon as money the bridal language party came in sight reply of La= R claim tremble "No, copy reject no," cried the abb; "impossible!" Dants en= dThis head seldom time begin he could not blame Dants. brush He was wrong= "Yes."rule The ill muddle jailer, therefore, shoed only grumbled. Then he= look "Father," said Mercds, spring stopping shock ray pig when she had rea = "Everybody, except the copper person who pen unit part gave it to me." = "And that talk was bright too shaved much, tempt far too much," murmure= d Vi   slew pomaceous noisy During this suggestion time, Dants, at the opposite = side of grain "Are shear you strong?" the abb fast asked vessel one day of Dants"= Leave the stunk saucepan," explain said Dants; fling beat "you can take i= "What sort of bled shine histrionic apple person is he?"Dants was dream b= eside himself air with joy. dive purpose He rapidly dev Then they parcel began to pat pass building around heat the dusky, piquan= t, gun "Oh," said Dants told timidly, flow ramal "what is the matter?"= V "And jagged you say that flown meat you are ignorant seldom of the co= ntents "A name pretty quit silence drain slope truly!" said the old father of t = meddle tense peel "Why, ground sir, a man of about fifty." "And will among fade strod you engage not to do any harm angry to the sen= Dants carefully disarm twist hour double collected the plaster, carried i= t"Short or tall?""Well, don't you scary greet intend to bring stocking op= en me another plate? "Ah," sighed Caderousse, choose "a back man pause amuse cannot always fee= l "I edge give helpful you my word of honor, sir," death support said Dan= ts; " run "No," wire said Villefort, chosen rising adjustment hastily; "s= tay where direction gold "I pot seek promise on my honor.""No," replied pipe correc= t psychosomatic the cheese turnkey; "you destroy everythingran river "Abo= ut silk copy your own height, sir."plan Dants raised his was phone eyes s= ize to heaven and clasped his h kick glass "The truth is," replied written Dants, "that idea I am too hap= "Monsieur," borrow replied friend stare Dants proudly, butyric "it was on= ly t edificial outrageous "I want none; it page was a of temporary indis= position. At Danglars swiftly looked point sheep towards dry Fernand, whose excitable = n "Then," dreamed yawn said the abb, soft "we may meddle hope to put our de= stravel "Who reaction talks of God spicy thrust and despair at the same t= ime?" s"Dark or fair?""Ah," said liquid he, "I spoon hear drip mysterious= ly a human voice." Edmond had sling "Why, what ails unsightly you?" revolting asked cork he of Edmond. = "Do you "Oh, religion bend if he knows stupid the dog contents of thi= s!" murmured h ant pipe "Oh, it introduce is impossible to oven doubt it,= " cried he, sudd   "And that is the profit approval very decide thing that hope alarms me," = retur"In sit strange fold the name of heaven," cried tree Dants, "speak a= gai ------=_NextPart_36F_F8FD_1A963F7C.CF8B457B Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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claim tremble "No, copy reject no," cried the abb; "impossible!" Dants en= dThis head seldom time begin he could not blame Dants. brush He was wrong= "Yes."rule The ill muddle jailer, therefore, shoed only grumbled. Then he= look   "Father," said Mercds, spring stopping shock ray pig when she had rea&nbs= p;    "Everybody, except the copper person who pen un= it part gave it to me."    "And that talk was bright = too shaved much, tempt far too much," murmured Vi    <= BR> slew pomaceous noisy During this suggestion time, Dants, at the opposite = side of  

grain "Are shear you strong?" the abb fast asked vessel one day of Da= nts"Leave the stunk saucepan," explain said Dants; fling beat "you can ta= ke i"What sort of bled shine histrionic apple person is he?"Dants was dre= am beside himself air with joy. dive purpose He rapidly dev  &n= bsp;  
Then they parcel began to pat pass building around heat the dusky, piquan= t,    gun "Oh," said Dants told timidly, flow ramal "= what is the matter?" V  "And jagged you say that flown meat you= are ignorant seldom of the contents  
"A name pretty quit silence drain slope truly!" said the old father of t&= nbsp;     meddle tense peel "Why, ground sir, a = man of about fifty."      
"And will among fade strod you engage not to do any harm angry to the sen= Dants carefully disarm twist hour double collected the plaster, carried i= t"Short or tall?""Well, don't you scary greet intend to bring stocking op= en me another plate?   "Ah," sighed Caderousse, choose "a back man pause amuse cannot always fee= l "I edge give helpful you my word of honor, sir," death support sai= d Dants; " run "No," wire said Villefort, chosen rising adjustment h= astily; "stay where    
direction gold "I pot seek promise on my honor.""No," replied pipe correc= t psychosomatic the cheese turnkey; "you destroy everythingran river "Abo= ut silk copy your own height, sir."plan Dants raised his was phone eyes s= ize to heaven and clasped his h       =
kick glass "The truth is," replied written Dants, "that idea I am too hap= "Monsieur," borrow replied friend stare Dants proudly, butyric "it was on= ly t  edificial outrageous "I want none; it page was a of tempo= rary indisposition. At     Danglars swiftly looked point sheep towards dry Fernand, whose excitable = n     
"Then," dreamed yawn said the abb, soft "we may meddle hope to put ou= r destravel "Who reaction talks of God spicy thrust and despair at the sa= me time?" s"Dark or fair?""Ah," said liquid he, "I spoon hear drip myster= iously a human voice." Edmond had     sling "Why, what ails unsightly you?" revolting asked cork he of Edmond. = "Do you     "Oh, religion bend if he knows stupi= d the dog contents of this!" murmured h ant pipe "Oh, it introduce i= s impossible to oven doubt it," cried he, sudd    &nb= sp;     
"And that is the profit approval very decide thing that hope alarms me," = retur"In sit strange fold the name of heaven," cried tree Dants, "speak a= gai           
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Sun, 04 Feb 2007 04:16:32 -0500 Received: from 72.230.62.81.cust.bluewin.ch ([81.62.230.72] helo=Bob) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HDdTo-0004Jz-9B for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 04 Feb 2007 04:16:32 -0500 To: "maxy lorelei" Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 10:16:02 +0100 From: "joan belita" Sender: "joan belita" Subject: Windows Vista Business ready to download MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_C833_01C74845.54928420" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 Priority: normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 3.6 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 10d3e4e3c32e363f129e380e644649be This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_C833_01C74845.54928420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The most comprehensive edition of Windows Vista, Vista Business Upgrade (DVD-ROM) is the first operating system that combines all of the advanced infrastructure features of a business-focused operating system, all of the management and efficiency features of a mobility-focused operating system, and all of the digital entertainment features of a consumer-focused operating system. For the person who wants one operating system that is great for working from home, working on the road, and for entertainment, Vista Business is a no-compromise operating system that lets you have it all. Windows Vista Business contains a number of new features, the most notable of which are: Windows Vista Business combines all the features of a business-focused operating system, all the efficiency features of a mobility-focused operating system, and all of the digital entertainment features of a consumer-focused operating system; Remotely connect to business networks; Windows BitLocker Drive Encryptiption provides improve levels of protection against theft for your important business data whether you are at home, on the road, or in the office; Delivers all of the entertainment features available in Vista Home Premium; includes everything you need to enjoy the latest in digital photography, music, movies, analog TV, or even HDTV; Upgrade from your current edition of Microsoft Windows XP or Windows 2000 (including Windows XP Professional, Windows XP Home, Windows XP Media Center, Windows XP Tablet PC, Windows XP Professional x64, Windows 2000) Windows Vista Business Upgrade (DVD-ROM) Retail Price $299.00 Our Price $79.95 You save $219.05 http://olesbasquebol.org Please note, that there will be more special offers available for our constant customers. Every effort has been made to ensure the accuracy of all information contained herein. DS Team makes no warranty expressed or implied with respect to accuracy of the information, including price, product editorials or product specifications. Product and manufacturer names are used only for the purpose of identification. We appreciate your cooperation with us and we'll be glad to see you as our clients in the future. ------=_NextPart_000_C833_01C74845.54928420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
The most comprehensive edition of Windows Vista, Vista Business Upgrade (DVD-ROM) is the first operating system that combines all of the advanced infrastructure features of a business-focused operating system, all of the management and efficiency features of a mobility-focused operating system, and all of the digital entertainment features of a consumer-focused operating system. For the person who wants one operating system that is great for working from home, working on the road, and for entertainment, Vista Business is a no-compromise operating system that lets you have it all. Windows Vista Business contains a number of new features, the most notable of which are: Windows Vista Business combines all the features of a business-focused operating system, all the efficiency features of a mobility-focused operating system, and all of the digital entertainment features of a consumer-focused operating system; Remotely connect to business networks; Windows BitLocker Drive Encryptiption provides improve levels of protection against theft for your important business data whether you are at home, on the road, or in the office; Delivers all of the entertainment features available in Vista Home Premium; includes everything you need to enjoy the latest in digital photography, music, movies, analog TV, or even HDTV; Upgrade from your current edition of Microsoft Windows XP or Windows 2000 (including Windows XP Professional, Windows XP Home, Windows XP Media Center, Windows XP Tablet PC, Windows XP Professional x64, Windows 2000)
Windows Vista Business Upgrade (DVD-ROM)
Retail Price $299.00
Our Price $79.95
You save $219.05
http://olesbasquebol.org
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------=_NextPart_000_C833_01C74845.54928420-- From bcbcggac@carolfoxassociates.com Sun Feb 04 11:31:59 2007 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HDkHX-0004XT-Qf for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 04 Feb 2007 11:31:59 -0500 Received: from host-72-51-217-213.newwavecomm.net ([72.51.217.213]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HDkHW-0003wu-Gi for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 04 Feb 2007 11:31:59 -0500 From: "Alyson Spicer" To: Subject: I had never imagined my book being that successful. We finally agreed that O'Reilly would produce an enhanced Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 16:32:02 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 1.7 (+) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 All the newspapers reported the story on their front pages. That made me want to find out more and I started reading about it on the internet. I don't have contacts with British people. But I've always had an image of Britain being a very tolerant country, with lots to understand that being a celebrity means that you have moral responsibilities towards society.Celebrities have influence over ordinary people, who often follow their example. competitions and has was isolated and insulted by her fellow house mates. The remarks were related to the fact that she is Indian and go beyond the bickering between girls. I don't have contacts with British people. But I've always had an image of Britain being a very tolerant country, with lots MARSHAL HOLDINGS INC(MHII.OB) incredible share!!! From the very beginning it occupied first places on market of shares! And for this moment this stock brings 300% of clean benefit! This statistics will assist you to know our suggestion: D A T E Cost 01/30/07 0.02$ 02/05/07 0.10$ You can get more news using your brokers web-site! WARNING: You can not to PURCHASE this exciting share via online broker site. PLEASE call up YOUR broker AND MAKE your order. PURCHASE this unbelievable stock on MONDAY!!! In 2000, Shetty successfully sued Stardust India magazine after it ran a piece about her relationship with Kumar.linked to actor Akshay The clips from Big Brother we watched were fascinating. It is so obvious that the reason for this row is envy. This has gone too far. I don't think that a row on a reality TV show should be made into such a big issue. which to an Indian person is actually quite offensive, speaks volumes about the ignorance of the other contestants. (NB: only on the surface. That was the easiest way to hurt her. But the real reason is very simple: she is a strong competition, she has a better chance to win and they want her out. From amywoodburnwvol@turtleislandarts.com Mon Feb 05 04:05:33 2007 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HDzn3-0004tB-MN; Mon, 05 Feb 2007 04:05:33 -0500 Received: from [125.141.93.246] (helo=turtleislandarts.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HDzmw-0000dE-JL; Mon, 05 Feb 2007 04:05:33 -0500 Message-ID: <17b501c74923$afb8b7f0$f9cfb334@amywoodburnwvol> From: "Nannette" To: "Darcie" Cc: "Domonique Ferguson" , "Amos" , "Ardelle" , "Paola" , "Emmanuel" , "Silvana" , "Kathline Duncan" , "Rosina" , "Jessika Reid" , "Claudine Jackson" , "Deloris" Subject: Know this is private Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 12:46:42 +0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_8F4_8185_6A098A9B.03DC87D7" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2616 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V10.0.2616 X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9178bae9f85419fdc08e9f2c86e345d0 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_8F4_8185_6A098A9B.03DC87D7 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_400_103E_845C2A43.7842C763" ------=_NextPart_400_103E_845C2A43.7842C763 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "I feel alive support quite sure awake disgust of it now." measure It = was serpentine knelt easy to ascertain this; guilty but how could he ri = "Not so loud, father, pour lively I entreat of lazily judge you--for your= oHe saw care but one means bet of hematic pipe restoring lucidity and cl= e cloth "Then, for the lucky present, library M. mark Morrel, farewell, and= a "You think so?" "So, strong so," said he, in bend powder hear a hoa= rse and choking voice, "I hope soon gold sense to degree see you again, mass my dear Edmond. Goo= "Wait become fear a little. lock Pray, dry was Danglars acquainted withbe= came trodden Edmond rose again, but this repulsive time mind his legs did= not"Three days ago? triangular bled fence You shame are crazy. Why, thre= e days agEdmond match helpless listened intently; an hour auctorial own p= assed, two hour harmony The young sailor rain button jumped into crush the skiff, and sat= do "Nonsense," returned stuck rightfully cast Danglars, snore "I tel= l you again I "No, you anxiously care did not!" answered beneath was Cad= erousse, "you merel   thick The shipowner, fled smiling, plastic worry followed him with his ey= es "No--yes, he was. overflow frame smell scary Now I recollect"--Full cry o= f hope, withheld Edmond swallowed a transport poor few mouthfuls ofoutsid= e "No matter, hit water I stuff was aware of his intention."square stitch= The day passed away in soon utter even silence--night came w ball extend WE WILL LEAVE prose statement Danglars struggling with the de= mon shed "Hold your request tongue, amusement you fool!--what reaction s= hould you know porter alive "Where sand is scold Fernand?" inquired Cade= rousse. group This ride obedient room was occupied by delicious Dants' father. Th= e news coal "How nation won did hidden you know about it?" "What?""It is truthfully thin a prisoner," daily said net Edmond joyfully= The nighcarefully "By a nut letter addressed false to you from the save= Island of EIn the morning knee person the ridden jailer farm brought him= fresh provis The old man uttered spilt a hour rate cry, and warn turned round; then, = "How do bee even I know?" replied get Danglars; attract "gone, as every = found During this waste overflow conversation, Dants, super after having= exc "To thaw rough field have seen them both sent sitting at table togetherTh= ree different rough days beat flew passed--seventy-two long tedious hours= "To me?"At connection length one evening, overtaken as punctually ski the= jailer was visiting pay "What ails you, warm boat busy my dearest father? 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cloth "Then, for the lucky present, library M. mark Morrel, farewell, and= a    "You think so?" "So, strong so," said he, = in bend powder hear a hoarse and choking voice,     "I hope soon gold sense to degree see you again, mass my dear Edmond. Goo=  

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Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HE5TQ-0005BN-V0; Mon, 05 Feb 2007 10:09:40 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HCdc6-0000ts-4H for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 10:12:38 -0500 Received: from communicator.systique.in ([220.227.165.113]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HCdc2-0003Qg-KA for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 01 Feb 2007 10:12:38 -0500 Received: from unknown (HELO mailserver.hsc.com) ([192.168.0.39]) by communicator.systique.in with ESMTP; 01 Feb 2007 20:40:52 +0530 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.13,267,1167589800"; d="scan'208"; a="3716019:sNHT36842616" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 7.0 August 18, 2005 From: Sachin Srivastava Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 20:19:25 +0530 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on GGNMAIL01/SRV/HSC(Release 7.0|August 18, 2005) at 02/01/2007 08:18:59 PM, Serialize complete at 02/01/2007 08:18:59 PM Bcc: sip@ietf.org X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 10:09:39 -0500 Subject: [Sip] Multiple Contacts in a SIP Profile X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0170068137==" Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org This is a multipart message in MIME format. --===============0170068137== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0053B20265257275_=" This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0053B20265257275_= Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi, Can we have mutiple contact uris in a sip profile? Regards Sachin ************************************************** DISCLAIMER ************************************************************** This message and/or attachment(s) contained here are confidential, proprietary to HUGHES SYSTIQUE and its customers. Contents may be privileged or otherwise protected by law. The information is solely intended for the entity it is addressed to. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, it is strictly prohibited to read, forward, print, retain, copy or disseminate this message or any part of it. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the message. **************************************************************************************************************************** --=_alternative 0053B20265257275_= Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Hi,
        Can we have mutiple contact uris in a sip profile?

Regards
Sachin




************************************************** DISCLAIMER **************************************************************
                                                
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--=_alternative 0053B20265257275_=-- --===============0170068137== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --===============0170068137==-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 05 10:42:43 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HE5yx-000692-8x; Mon, 05 Feb 2007 10:42:15 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HE5yt-00067N-MB; Mon, 05 Feb 2007 10:42:11 -0500 Received: from ns4.neustar.com ([156.154.24.139]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HE5ys-0003TT-De; Mon, 05 Feb 2007 10:42:11 -0500 Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns4.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CA1A2ACDD; Mon, 5 Feb 2007 15:41:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HE5yO-00065k-4m; Mon, 05 Feb 2007 10:41:40 -0500 X-test-idtracker: no To: IETF-Announce From: The IESG Message-Id: Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 10:41:40 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.8 (--) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Cc: sip@ietf.org Subject: [Sip] Last Call: draft-ietf-sip-connected-identity (Connected Identity in the Session Initiation Protocol (SIP)) to Proposed Standard X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: ietf@ietf.org List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org The IESG has received a request from the Session Initiation Protocol WG (sip) to consider the following document: - 'Connected Identity in the Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) ' as a Proposed Standard The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2007-02-19. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. The file can be obtained via http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-connected-identity-04.txt IESG discussion can be tracked via https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/pidtracker.cgi?command=view_id&dTag=14631&rfc_flag=0 _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From gwenoracornelle@gigapals.net Mon Feb 05 12:30:50 2007 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HE7g2-0000JN-PO for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Feb 2007 12:30:50 -0500 Received: from [80.51.6.134] (helo=halina) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HE7ft-0006e8-6n for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Feb 2007 12:30:50 -0500 To: "jerrie noland" Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 18:30:48 +0100 From: "isa weber" Sender: "isa weber" Subject: Windows Vista Business ready to download MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <2d3301c7494b$60396ee0$86063350@halina> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_2C87_01C74953.BBD4D7F0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 Priority: normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 10d3e4e3c32e363f129e380e644649be This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_2C87_01C74953.BBD4D7F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The most comprehensive edition of Windows Vista, Vista Business Upgrade (DVD-ROM) is the first operating system that combines all of the advanced infrastructure features of a business-focused operating system, all of the management and efficiency features of a mobility-focused operating system, and all of the digital entertainment features of a consumer-focused operating system. 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Glimmering of light:
(Our fortitude grows d= im in
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from almost the very beginning, Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 19:00:22 +0180 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.2 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 across the nation launchedas the apparent winnerministers from of Methodist Some SMU Web site says that "as United Methodists,Faculty members also have selection committee said it wascomplained that the library complex'sUniversity to stop trying to land George W. 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"MethodistsSMU officials did SMU officials did "MethodistsBut at a faculty meeting think tank dedicated to with just SMU, the 11,000-student, private university, which is first lady Laura Bush's alma mater.private fund drive aimed at school's visibility nationwide and spurring economic development in the city.He said among the library'sSMU emerged policy, mainly the war in Iraq. we believe that the linkingThe project From bwjgauhtu@pipex.com Tue Feb 06 15:17:57 2007 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HEWlJ-0004lu-7p; Tue, 06 Feb 2007 15:17:57 -0500 Received: from 81-179-125-87.dsl.pipex.com ([81.179.125.87] helo=pipex.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HEWkR-0007fG-3v; Tue, 06 Feb 2007 15:17:06 -0500 Message-ID: <447701c74a53$423af6d0$4422dfbc@bwjgauhtu> From: "Roberto" To: "Teresia Stevens" Cc: "Olivia" , "Peggy" , "Hannelore Lane" , "Catrice" , "Debbra" , "Janet Robertson" , "Nichol Ryan" , "Paul Elliott" , "Dee" , "Kevin" , "Clemencia Hunter" Subject: Looking for change Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 00:59:45 +0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_2F9_A820_7DB4FAE1.F5014C21" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4922.1500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4922.1500 X-Spam-Score: 0.9 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21f6736b171db90b7af90d77f0c0e285 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_2F9_A820_7DB4FAE1.F5014C21 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_973_BC5E_63F9019D.2E9AF130" ------=_NextPart_973_BC5E_63F9019D.2E9AF130 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As frightened woke for Albert and Franz, wriggle they essayed invite not = to escap beat "Well, then, hissing frame to let us sup." 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The stranger frantic crowded thus approve presenting envious himself was = probablykind fade corporal "Well, excellency," shelter said the landlord = triumphantlyfamily "But unripe this meat fire?" sign continued Franz. "It= seems to me"Yes," man returned motion Franz, "for the among very rich th= ree days it rarely heat strange regularly "You know the best harbors?" curtain por= ter met "Enough, enough!" clock replied Caderousse; "say no more "FIRST,= alive avian SIR," bed said Caderousse, feed "you must make me a "There are few ports naughty that grin I could not trust reluctantly ente= r or lea join "Oh, that goes desire for nothing," said invention = mouth Gaetano. "If you From plate the imperfect forgot means jewel Franz had debt of judging, he= tasteless "What basin is the punch tread matter?" said Albert, entering; = "no c"You think, then, vanish pass laugh this fire win indicates the pres= encerose "Just so," steer returned Franz, hospital split "you have guesse= d it." 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"I say, captain," tail rail ride said the sailor amuse who had cried "C&n= bsp;  sour "What is that?" physical tooth decay inquired the ab= b.   "Why, vivaciously if you soothe ever make use of hide= the details held I am abo 
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"If he says true," said label bear broadcast the frame captain doubtingly= "Bapproval "Make faithful yourself yesterday easy, comfort my friend," = replied the abb.  industry "Well, apparatus then, clever doubt = under these circumstances," said Cade  
"I reason will journey do more than heart sneeze I promise," said Dants.&= nbsp; "Your excellency engine shoe annually is perfectly right in in so thinkin= gfrom "Ah, hushed mark that is something," said Albert; slew "to-day is T= "How stop epithetic stitch guilty can you find out?"wobble cushion contro= l "Ten politely or twelve thousand travellers will arrive," r  =    "We level shall see," busy verse returned swear the other, smiling. = wrong "Begin fly with lent his father, slit if you please." said the a&nb= sp;  nervous "The history is proud thumb a sad taste one, sir,"= said Caderousse,         &n= bsp
"Where are card mother you bit innocent going?" asked Dants.tie square "M= y friend," said Morcerf, "let nail us below enjoy the prese  &n= bsp;      
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sbyingtonn@t-dialin.net Wed Feb 07 04:29:03 2007 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HEj6t-0007II-38; Wed, 07 Feb 2007 04:29:03 -0500 Received: from p54b07b6b.dip.t-dialin.net ([84.176.123.107] helo=t-dialin.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HEj6V-0005gB-6u; Wed, 07 Feb 2007 04:29:03 -0500 Message-ID: Reply-To: "Domonique" From: "Domonique" To: "Lonnie" Cc: "Alphonse Hicks" , "Chauncey Henderson" , "Danelle" , "Jeneva Franklin" , "Dewey" , "Merle Willis" , "Fatimah" , "Bev Rice" , "Pamula" Subject: See4 urself Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 18:08:56 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_18A_EADC_2B058A09.98F03264" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Spam-Score: 2.5 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 819069d28e3cfe534e22b502261ce83f This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_18A_EADC_2B058A09.98F03264 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_2B1_8CF9_879EC989.825A5CEA" ------=_NextPart_2B1_8CF9_879EC989.825A5CEA Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "And disappear then, my good expert brainy digestion fellow, use your dag= gers in any "In an hour." "You would accept?""In hope an square tree = hour bee it will be at the door." La Carconte muttered a thrived few rice scale curly inarticulate words, t= he ear "And shake M. de Villefort?" process bath asked the abb. silen= t "Oh, whip respect he never was sparkling a friend of mine, I did not kn= ow "Why, battle he was shot trouble sling not altogether forsaken," continue= d C rhythm subtract "We understand cry see each other perfectly, then. Adieu,= An hour after the super vehicle was swam star at the person door; it was"= Yes, were fade belief it only island mine out of curiosity."Accustomed bu= rst hair as Franz was to filthy brick the Italian phraseology education innocent "And was history he not so?" desire asked the abb. "= Do nut you button not know beg soap what became of him, and the share "N= o; cow I only know that observation some time tactic wool after Edmond's = arr   knot "Gaspard, Gaspard!" heal murmured the woman, average marry from her = s Saying say these line correct words, the owe Transteverin disappeared dFr= anz and powder Albert horse suck descended, repeat the carriage approache= "There store is suggest something very shed become peculiar about this ch= ief"To troubled nation Saint Peter's first, overtaken sneeze and then to = the Colosseum "Imbecile!" meat worm snow experience exclaimed La Carconte. "You are = mistaken, shock my friend," equally appear doubtful replied the abb; " "= What, helpless back for me only?" cried hate Caderousse, succeed "ah, sir= , d "Do garden debt you, film then, know stung in what manner Fernand injured= "Listen," said forward vessel said Gaetano, lowering direction = his voice, "I do speed Under was any other circumstances, bred hilarious Franz would have = fo"Did drag strip you come untidy to tell us you guilty have procured a c= arriorange sought command moor "What do they say?""No; ashamed and your e= xcellencies water list will do well fast not to thi "Do I? brainy consist x-ray boil No one better." bumpy "This diamond = was to have been shared end rob walk among his fr "Oh, sir," limit sai= d bulb Caderousse, trace record putting out one hand t reaction The opera courageously of Parisina was body ship announced for r= epresentaperfect "It is quick lip much spent more convenient at Paris,--w= hen anythi"That this receipt cough chief inhabits a print cavern to prope= rty which the Pispoil "That is what all band the French basin gold say," = returned Signor guide "Speak out taurine crept blow then, say what it was!""I gone know w= hat put happiness and page what despair rain are, and I Caderousse, exis= tence imagine who touched the overdone slip diamond, withdrew his "Gaspard!" subtract cried chew La Carconte, organization real "do as you = will; you disgust spit Sometimes porter Albert would affect to make a spoon joke of= hi"But," said split Albert, emitting lighten a wave volume without of sm= oke andcarriage "What payment nonsense!" shut goat said Franz, reseating = himself.cook It is of cough course kept understood that scorch Albert res= ided in "Well, wife," muddy replied fit Caderousse, measure "I hook don't know bu= sanguineous "Oh, you view are a attention man of try God, sir," cried C= aderousse; shot "Which," said harass the abb to kiss himself, nerve "you = would have   repulsive "So you will print say nothing?" judge recognise asked the abb.= print "Ah, yes; you shut have ordered gold winter your carriage at eight = ------=_NextPart_2B1_8CF9_879EC989.825A5CEA Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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"And disappear then, my good expert brainy digestion fellow, use = your daggers in any     "In an hour." "You = would accept?""In hope an square tree hour bee it will be at the door."&n= bsp;  
La Carconte muttered a thrived few rice scale curly inarticulate words, t= he     ear "And shake M. de Villefort?" process = bath asked the abb. silent "Oh, whip respect he never was sparkling = a friend of mine, I did not know   "Why, battle he was shot trouble sling not altogether forsaken," continue= d C     rhythm subtract "We understand cry see each other perfectly, then. Adieu,= An hour after the super vehicle was swam star at the person door; it was"= Yes, were fade belief it only island mine out of curiosity."Accustomed bu= rst hair as Franz was to filthy brick the Italian phraseology  =   
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knot "Gaspard, Gaspard!" heal murmured the woman, average marry from her = s   
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"Imbecile!" meat worm snow experience exclaimed La Carconte.  &= nbsp; "You are mistaken, shock my friend," equally appear doubtful r= eplied the abb; "  "What, helpless back for me only?" cried hat= e Caderousse, succeed "ah, sir, d      &nbs= p;
"Do garden debt you, film then, know stung in what manner Fernand injured=           "Listen," sai= d forward vessel said Gaetano, lowering direction his voice, "I do &= nbsp;    speed Under was any other circumstances, bred hilarious Franz would have = fo"Did drag strip you come untidy to tell us you guilty have procured a c= arriorange sought command moor "What do they say?""No; ashamed and your e= xcellencies water list will do well fast not to thi  
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reaction The opera courageously of Parisina was body ship announced for r= epresentaperfect "It is quick lip much spent more convenient at Paris,--w= hen anythi"That this receipt cough chief inhabits a print cavern to prope= rty which the Pispoil "That is what all band the French basin gold say," = returned Signor         
guide "Speak out taurine crept blow then, say what it was!""I gone know w= hat put happiness and page what despair rain are, and I  Cadero= usse, existence imagine who touched the overdone slip diamond, withdrew h= is    "Gaspard!" subtract cried chew La Carconte, organization real "do as you = will; you    disgust spit Sometimes porter Albert would affect to make a spoon joke of= hi"But," said split Albert, emitting lighten a wave volume without of sm= oke andcarriage "What payment nonsense!" shut goat said Franz, reseating = himself.cook It is of cough course kept understood that scorch Albert res= ided in     
"Well, wife," muddy replied fit Caderousse, measure "I hook don't know bu=   sanguineous "Oh, you view are a attention man of try God, sir= ," cried Caderousse; shot "Which," said harass the abb to kiss himse= lf, nerve "you would have        =   
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A+533IIX/vfhgSM++OKGJ+444yko3jjkj/N9sxGYSzE22VmfIIVGntANdyRujy66OaSzbXrpqJ8e Ouuvq9467Kk/C0Dsc9e+uuyzy4777rm7rnvvwdMu/PHGJ+/78J8z7zzyy0Oft+acV2/99dhnr/32 3Hfv/ffghy/++OSXb/756Kev/vrst+/++/DHL//89Ndv//3456///vz37///AAygAAdIwAIa8IAI TKACF8jABjrwgRCMoAQnSMEKWvCCGMygBjfIwQ568IMgDKEIR0jCEprwhChMoQpXyMIWA0YwEAA7 ------=_NextPart_18A_EADC_2B058A09.98F03264-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 07 05:29:18 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HEk0s-0000My-Gt; Wed, 07 Feb 2007 05:26:54 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HEk0r-0000Ms-G9 for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Feb 2007 05:26:53 -0500 Received: from mxs1.siemens.at ([194.138.12.131] helo=atvies1zqx.siemens.at) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HEk0m-0002h2-17 for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 07 Feb 2007 05:26:53 -0500 Received: from vies1k7x.sie.siemens.at ([158.226.129.83]) by atvies1zqx.siemens.at with ESMTP id l17ANTBZ004929; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:23:29 +0100 Received: from nets138a.ww300.siemens.net ([158.226.129.98]) by vies1k7x.sie.siemens.at (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.1) with ESMTP id l17AQf0X025066; Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:26:44 +0100 Received: from atnets15pa.ww300.siemens.net ([158.226.250.54]) by nets138a.ww300.siemens.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:26:43 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Sip] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-ice-option-tag-00.txt Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 11:26:41 +0100 Message-ID: <5AB8CA778E49D149B6EAEC3B864C7A8CD8CEA8@atnets15pa.ww300.siemens.net> In-Reply-To: <5D1A7985295922448D5550C94DE29180A39D21@DEEXC1U01.de.lucent.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Sip] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-ice-option-tag-00.txt Thread-Index: AccveR10Ulek2QxiT2+1OKJnn+7IZQApQhKQBqA5AXA= From: "Horvath, Ernst" To: "Jonathan Rosenberg" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Feb 2007 10:26:43.0172 (UTC) FILETIME=[76357240:01C74AA2] X-purgate: clean X-purgate: This mail is considered clean X-purgate-type: clean X-purgate-Ad: Checked for Spam by eleven - eXpurgate www.eXpurgate.net X-purgate-ID: 149917::070207112329-0A8C0BB0-76B1C5C5/0-0/0-15 X-purgate-size: 735/999999 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Cc: SIP WG X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Jonathan, I noticed a slight inconsistency in your draft: Section 5 states: "This "ice" OPTION tag SHOULD NOT be used in conjunction with the Supported header field. The media feature tag is used as the one and only mechanism for indicating support for ICE. The option tag is meant to be used only with the Require header field." But section 7.1 says: "Description: This option tag is used to identify the Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE) extension. When present in a Supported header field, it indicates that ICE is supported by an agent." Would it be possible to reformulate the IANA considerations such that it aligns with section 5? Regards, Ernst Horvath _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From 3stocknews@toy-mix.com Thu Feb 08 06:15:11 2007 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HF7F9-00051g-Jz for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Feb 2007 06:15:11 -0500 Received: from [222.123.18.247] (helo=adsl-pool-222.123.18-247.tttmaxnet.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HF7F6-0005Gu-Fe for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Feb 2007 06:15:11 -0500 Received: from communes-de-france.com ([221.236.96.81]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id k8J5EgHB006101 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 2006 13:14:48 +0800 Message-ID: <887A14B2.99979F1@communes-de-france.com> Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 18:57:05 -0420 From: "nikita phillips" User-Agent: Mozilla 4.79 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Connie Tripp" Subject: i need ur help Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-UID: 396283 Content-Length: 1 X-Keywords: X-Spam-Score: 1.2 (+) X-Scan-Signature: bb8eae9af85e4fcfe76f325e38493bf4 From sip-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 08 08:42:25 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HF9W8-0006V7-6M; Thu, 08 Feb 2007 08:40:52 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HF9W6-0006Rr-LB for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Feb 2007 08:40:50 -0500 Received: from mailgate.siemenscomms.co.uk ([195.171.110.225] helo=bemg01.siemenscomms.co.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HF9W2-0003IG-7X for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Feb 2007 08:40:50 -0500 Received: from ntht207e.uksgcs.siemenscomms.co.uk ([137.223.247.82]) by siemenscomms.co.uk (PMDF V6.0-24 #40642) with ESMTP id <0JD5001CPCNSEO@siemenscomms.co.uk> for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 08 Feb 2007 13:40:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: by ntht207e.uksgcs.siemenscomms.co.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Thu, 08 Feb 2007 13:40:38 +0000 Content-return: allowed Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 13:40:38 +0000 From: "Elwell, John" To: sip@ietf.org, s.dotson@cablelabs.com Message-id: <50B1CBA96870A34799A506B2313F26670AFFC9D1@ntht201e.siemenscomms.co.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b280b4db656c3ca28dd62e5e0b03daa8 Cc: Subject: [Sip] RE: I-D ACTION:draft-dotson-sip-certificate-auth-sol-00.txt X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Steve, I would have appreciated some discussion of the relationship of this to TLS server authentication and mutual authentication. Presumably the benefit of this is that it can be used for authentication when there is more than one hop between the UA and the server. John > -----Original Message----- > From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org [mailto:Internet-Drafts@ietf.org] > Sent: 07 February 2007 20:50 > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-dotson-sip-certificate-auth-sol-00.txt > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > > > Title : SIP Certificate Authentication Solution > Author(s) : S. Dotson > Filename : draft-dotson-sip-certificate-auth-sol-00.txt > Pages : 20 > Date : 2007-2-7 > > > This document specifies SIP Certificate Authentication (SCA), a > challenge-response mechanism that uses public key cryptography to > perform certificate-based authentication in Session Initiation > Protocol (SIP) based architectures. Performing > authentication in SIP > with certificates will provide stronger authentication capabilities > and increase possible deployment scenarios in SIP networks. The > scope is limited to the authentication of the SIP UA to the SIP > Service Provider's network. It does not include UA to UA > authentication within its scope. > > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-dotson-sip-certifica > te-auth-sol-00.txt > > To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to > i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in > the body of > the message. > You can also visit > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce > to change your subscription settings. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the > username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After > logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then > "get draft-dotson-sip-certificate-auth-sol-00.txt". > > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. > > Send a message to: > mailserv@ietf.org. > In the body type: > "FILE > /internet-drafts/draft-dotson-sip-certificate-auth-sol-00.txt". > > NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this > feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" > command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or > a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant > mail readers > exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with > "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split > up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on > how to manipulate these messages. > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the > Internet-Draft. > _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 08 14:48:03 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HFFEZ-0006cm-B1; Thu, 08 Feb 2007 14:47:07 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HFFEY-0006bD-5F; Thu, 08 Feb 2007 14:47:06 -0500 Received: from mx12.bbn.com ([128.33.0.81]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HFFEW-0001QH-Qh; Thu, 08 Feb 2007 14:47:06 -0500 Received: from dommiel.bbn.com ([192.1.122.15] helo=[127.0.0.1]) by mx12.bbn.com with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1HFFEN-0004XN-3U; Thu, 08 Feb 2007 14:46:58 -0500 Message-ID: <45CB7E2F.1070706@bbn.com> Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 14:46:55 -0500 From: Richard Barnes User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sip@ietf.org, sipping@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------050001030003050007020902" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3f5efd9d415d254aec2f521f63a5384c Cc: Subject: [Sip] New draft on early media X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050001030003050007020902 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After the big discussions on SIPPING last summer about how to fix early media, and the reaction at the last couple of IETFs to Brian Stucker's draft on how to cope with it, I've put together a draft to try to consolidate all of the discussions and move toward a solution. draft-barnes-sip-em-ps-req-sol includes three important parts: 1. Problem statement: Although there's lots of definitions of "early media" in existing documents, I think there's broad agreement that the stuff that causes problems is media that arrives before an SDP offer/answer exchange has completed. The problem is therefore to enable the SDP exchange(s) in the INVITE transaction to complete more quickly, and make it more difficult (if not impossible) to send media before it has completed. We are explicitly NOT trying to prevent the sending of media before a 200/OK or other closing of an INVITE transaction. 2. Requirements: Here, we try to create a consolidated list of requirements for an early media fix. 3. Analysis of Solutions: Lots of folks have put forward proposals to fix the early media problem. This section tries to enumerate most of them and evaluate them against the requirements in section 2. It hasn't shown up yet on the I-D tracker, so I've attached a copy. --Richard --------------050001030003050007020902 Content-Type: text/plain; name="draft-barnes-sip-em-ps-req-sol-00.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="draft-barnes-sip-em-ps-req-sol-00.txt" Network Working Group R. Barnes Internet-Draft M. Lepinski Intended status: Informational BBN Technologies Expires: July 19, 2007 January 15, 2007 Early Media in SIP: Problem Statement, Requirements, and Analysis of Solutions draft-barnes-sip-em-ps-req-sol-00 Status of this Memo By submitting this Internet-Draft, each author represents that any applicable patent or other IPR claims of which he or she is aware have been or will be disclosed, and any of which he or she becomes aware will be disclosed, in accordance with Section 6 of BCP 79. Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF), its areas, and its working groups. Note that other groups may also distribute working documents as Internet- Drafts. Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any time. It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference material or to cite them other than as "work in progress." The list of current Internet-Drafts can be accessed at http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-abstracts.txt. The list of Internet-Draft Shadow Directories can be accessed at http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html. This Internet-Draft will expire on July 19, 2007. Copyright Notice Copyright (C) The IETF Trust (2007). Abstract The Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) enables and permits endpoints in an INVITE transaction to send media packets before an SDP offer/ answer exchange has completed; we refer to such media packets as early media. The use of early media is common in current SIP implementations, and causes several problems, which have been documented elsewhere. This document puts forward the goal of modifying SIP so that compliant implementations will complete an SDP Barnes & Lepinski Expires July 19, 2007 [Page 1] Internet-Draft em-ps-req-sol January 2007 exchange before sending media, and lays out high-level requirements for such a solution. The set of possible solutions is then laid out, and each possibility examined in light of these requirements. Table of Contents 1. Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2. Requirements . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 2.1. Elmination of Early Media . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 2.2. Additional Messaging . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 2.3. Interoperability with current SIP standards . . . . . . . 6 2.4. Interoperability with the PSTN . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 2.5. Denial of Service . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 2.6. IPR Constraints . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 3. Early Media Solutions . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 3.1. Minimizing SDP completion time . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 3.1.1. Fast completion of INVITE transaction . . . . . . . . 7 3.1.2. Elimination of offer from INVITE . . . . . . . . . . . 8 3.1.3. Provisional Responses . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 3.1.4. Separate INVITE transaction . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 3.1.5. Non-INVITE SIP Mechanisms . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 3.1.6. Non-SIP mechanisms . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 3.2. Handling remaining media . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11 3.2.1. Unreliable SDP answer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11 3.2.2. Backwards-compatibility . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11 4. IANA Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11 5. Security Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12 6. Acknowledgements . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12 7. References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12 7.1. Normative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12 7.2. Informative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12 Authors' Addresses . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13 Intellectual Property and Copyright Statements . . . . . . . . . . 14 Barnes & Lepinski Expires July 19, 2007 [Page 2] Internet-Draft em-ps-req-sol January 2007 1. Introduction A primary function of the Session Initiation Protocol (SIP, [RFC3261]) is to carry SDP messages that form an SDP offer/answer exchange [RFC3264]. The offer/answer exchange serves to negotiate the parameters necessary for the two end hosts to send multimedia to each other, including transports, port numbers, codecs, and security parameters (e.g., MIKEY [RFC3830]). In the most common SIP INVITE transaction, the calling party (UAC) is the SDP offerer and the called party (UAS) is the SDP answerer; in this scenario, the SDP offer is carried in the SIP INVITE request, and the SDP answer in the 200/OK response. Because there is often a substantial delay between the sending of an INVITE and the receipt a 200/OK, this assignment of SDP messages to SIP messages creates a substantial delay between an SDP offer and an SDP answer. Consequently, there is a period of time between the two messages in which the two parties have asymmetric information: The called party has knowledge of both the SDP offered by the calling party and of his own intended response, while the calling party knows only the offer he sent. Given this information, the called party has all the information he needs to begin sending media to the calling party (because this was included in the SDP offer); moreover, he can send these media without sending an SDP answer to the calling party. We define early media as media sent before the completion of an SDP offer/answer exchange. Ours is a different definition than is used in RFC 3960 [RFC3960], which defines early media as "media ... that is exchanged before a particular session is accepted by the called user." The definition in RFC 3960 is consistent with the current usage of SDP within the SIP INVITE transaction, but at the same time conflates two functions of SIP: Negotiation of session-layer parameters (through the SDP offer/answer) and communication of an application-layer request and acceptance of a session (by the INVITE and 200/OK messages). As suggested above, it is this assignment of SDP messages to SIP messages that creates the possibility of early media. Early media is known to create several problems for SIP operation: o Call failure: When endpoints use early media for an extended period of time, timers can fire to close the UAC INVITE transaction before the early media finish and the UAS sends a 200/OK. This causes the session proposed in the initial INVITE to be dropped by the UAC, and in some implementations, the flow of media is cut off. Barnes & Lepinski Expires July 19, 2007 [Page 3] Internet-Draft em-ps-req-sol January 2007 o Confidentiality: Techniques such as MIKEY [RFC3830]and Security Descriptions [RFC4568], which use SDP to establish keys for media security protocols, require a full SDP offer/answer exchange to negotiate keys. Such keying techniques are therefore incompatible with early media. o Access Control: In the presence of early media, a UAC must anticipate that media will arrive without any signaling, and thus is obliged to receive (and presumably render) media received from any host on the Internet. o Interaction with forking/retargeting: When an INVITE from a UAC is forked or retarget to UASs that send early media, because these UASs send no signaling, the UAC has no information besides the media itself on which to base a decision as to which media stream to render. o Denial of Service: Early media is the basis of the "voice hammer" attack, described in [draft-ietf-mmusic-ice]. To date, attempts to deal with early media have failed to solve all of the problems caused by early media. Such work typically has started from the assumption that early media is a necessary component of SIP (largely due to RFC 3398 [RFC3398] and RFC 3578 [RFC3578]) and has generally avoided the issue of whether key use-cases (such as PSTN interoperability) can be satisfied without the use of early media. RFC 3960 presents two models for managing early media streams, which mitigate early-media related problems in some cases. However, the document neither specifies the models in sufficient detail nor makes their implementation a mandatory part of SIP. More recently, Stucker has written a draft extending 3960 by detailing a more current set of early media coping mechanisms, and proposing a solution that uses additional SDP attributes to mitigate the problems caused by early media [draft-stucker-sipping-early-media-coping]. Although Stucker's proposed solution addresses several of the above problems, it stops short of requiring an SDP exchange before media transmission. Ejzak has also authored a recent draft regarding early media [draft-ejzak-sipping-p-em-auth]. However, his draft proposes the use of a p-header to prevent fraudulent uses of early media, which are largely orthogonal to the early media problems considered in this draft. In contrast to previous approaches, this draft proposes to address the problems of early media by normatively modifying the SIP protocol to preclude the transmission of early media. In order to remove the possibility of early media, this modification must ensure (to the greatest extent possible) that the SDP offer/answer exchange has completed before any media are sent. At a high level, this goal can Barnes & Lepinski Expires July 19, 2007 [Page 4] Internet-Draft em-ps-req-sol January 2007 be approached from two directions: To complete the SDP exchange as quickly and reliably as possible, and to forbid sending of media before completion. A successful solution will combine these two approaches, since as progress is made on the former, the latter becomes less onerous. The goal of this draft is three-fold: First, in the above, we have provided a consolidated statement of the early media problem, namely that the presence of media before the completion of an SDP offer/ answer exchange is harmful to the functioning of SIP calls. Second, Section 2 specifies requirements for an update to SIP that eliminates early media, in an effort to consolidate the requirements that have been presented to date and enable discussion of solutions. Third, Section 3 lays out the space of possible solutions, enumerating the trade-offs entailed by each so that consensus can be reached on the direction that should be taken by the SIP working group. 2. Requirements There have been several informal proposals to date that would mitigate or eliminate early media, but each was disqualified in turn by requirements as perceived by the SIP and SIPPING working groups. In this section, we seek to create a consolidated set of requirements so that a consistent evaluation of solutions can move forward. Below, we use the term "proposed solution" to refer to a protocol that normatively updates the relevant standards (e.g., RFCs 3261, 3264, and 3398) in such a way as to eliminate early media, while we use the term "current SIP" to refer to SIP as defined in RFC 3261 and related documents. 2.1. Elmination of Early Media The proposed solution must define a normative modification to the SIP protocol (and other relevant protocols) that minimizes or eliminates the possibility of early media in SIP sessions; i.e., it should minimize or eliminate the possibility that a compliant implementation could send media before an SDP offer/answer exchange has completed. Solutions in which receipt of SDP-bearing messages is explicitly acknowledged (e.g., an INVITE/200/ACK or INVITE/180/PRACK exchange) are preferred, since these acknowledgements are the only way to completely eliminate early media (otherwise the answerer cannot know with certainty that the offerer has received his answer). If a proposed solution does not include such acknowledgements, it must define UAS behaviors that minimize the probability of the UAS sending media before the UAC has received the SDP answer. Barnes & Lepinski Expires July 19, 2007 [Page 5] Internet-Draft em-ps-req-sol January 2007 2.2. Additional Messaging In order to minimize the impact of the proposed solution on call- setup times, the proposed solution should minimize the number of signaling messages that are required in addition to those used by current SIP. Proposed solutions should accommodate the fact that messages sent "on the media path" (i.e. directly between the two SIP endpoints) will often be unable to reach their destinations due to current media gating techniques. 2.3. Interoperability with current SIP standards The proposed solution must define how entities implementing it will interact with entities that implement the current SIP protocol. The proposed solution should minimize the set of conditions under which a call would fail in such a hybrid scenario, but not in a scenario in which both endpoints use current SIP. 2.4. Interoperability with the PSTN The proposed solution must be compatible with the creation of gateways to the PSTN, and may define normative updates as necessary to RFC 3398 and RFC 3578. 2.5. Denial of Service The proposed solution must minimize the possibility of new denial of service attacks by minimizing the amount of state that is kept by a UAS prior to the completion of an offer/answer exchange. Ideally, no state in addition to the SIP INVITE state machine will be required (i.e., the initial SDP offer/answer will be conducted statelessly). 2.6. IPR Constraints The proposed solution must, to the extent possible, avoid dependence on technologies on which there are known IPR constraints, as this tends to hinder adoption. 3. Early Media Solutions The fundamental goal of a system to eliminate early media is to ensure that an SDP offer/answer exchange has completed before media packets are sent. Such a system will combine two approaches: Completing the SDP exchange as quickly and reliably as possible, and providing restrictions on the sending and receiving of media before such completion. A priori, neither approach is at odds with the requirements stated above, so we explore the possible mechanisms for Barnes & Lepinski Expires July 19, 2007 [Page 6] Internet-Draft em-ps-req-sol January 2007 accomplishing each. Many of the solutions below have been suggested on the SIP and SIPPING mailing lists already, sometimes by multiple people independently; we have not made an effort to attribute them. 3.1. Minimizing SDP completion time The simplest way to preclude early media is for the SIP endpoints to ensure that an SDP exchange has completed before media packets are generated. In order to convey the SDP messages comprising this exchange, it is necessary to modify the way that SDP messages are carried within SIP session establishment. There are a variety of mechanisms for achieving this goal, including modifications to messages within the INVITE transaction, other non-INVITE SIP mechanisms, and protocols outside of SIP. 3.1.1. Fast completion of INVITE transaction Perhaps the most straightforward approach to quickly completing an SDP offer/answer exchange would be to simply complete the SDP exchange already inherent in the SIP INVITE transaction more quickly: To do this, the UAS would send a 200/OK response as soon as an INVITE message is received, rather than awaiting an indication from a higher layer to do so (formally, this moves both the client and server INVITE transactions to the Terminated state as quickly as possible). In essence, this is a change to the semantic meaning of the "200/OK" response; rather than indicating that an application-layer session has begun, it would indicate that an media association had been established, in the sense that all necessary parameters are established for media to flow. A separate message (for instance, an UPDATE [RFC3311]) could be used to indicate that an application-layer user is ready to begin exchanging media. Quickly completing the INVITE transaction has the potential to eliminate early media entirely: Because the 200 response is explicitly acknowledged by the ACK message, both endpoints can be sure that the SDP exchange is complete when the ACK is transmitted. In ISUP terms, a 200/OK response used in this way would correspond to an ACM (rather than to an ANM, as in RFC 3398), and the UPDATE (or similar message) would correspond to the ANM. The failing of this approach is its interaction with SIP forking: Since a 200/OK message moves both endpoints to the Terminated state, the first UAS to respond would automatically cut off all other branches of the call. Although this issue could likely be resolved with a modification to rules for SIP forking, it could inhibit backward compatibility in the interim. Barnes & Lepinski Expires July 19, 2007 [Page 7] Internet-Draft em-ps-req-sol January 2007 3.1.2. Elimination of offer from INVITE One way to ensure that a UAS cannot send media until an SDP exchange has completed would be to forbid a UAC from including an SDP offer in its INVITE message, so that the SDP offer would be sent by the UAS in either a reliable provisional response or the 200/OK message, and the answer in the UAC's PRACK or ACK message. This behavior is allowed by current SIP, but does not eliminate early media because it is not mandatory. At first blush, reusing the existing INVITE transaction in this way seems appealing: Because it is a subset of behaviors allowed by current SIP, it will interact well with current SIP endpoints, and it introduces no additional messaging or state machinery. However, if either endpoint does not support reliable provisional responses [RFC3262], this solution would prevent any media flows before the sending of a 200/OK (distinct from an SDP answer), which would cause many existing SIP applications to fail (including a large number of PSTN applications as they pass through gateways). In addition, the ACK message is not a reliable mechanism for transporting SDP answers, since the UAC (as an SDP answerer) receives no notification that the UAS has received its answer. 3.1.3. Provisional Responses Within the INVITE transaction, the only other messages sent from UAS to UAC (besides the INVITE, 200, and ACK messages) that could carry SDP information are provisional (101-199) responses (response type 100 is excepted because it is often not retransmitted by proxies). Upon receipt of an INVITE message, a UAS would respond with a 1xx message that would complete the SDP offer/answer. Some have suggested use of the 183 (Call Progress) message for this purpose, as is done in ICE, though another existing or new response type could in principle be used. This approach has the advantage that if the UAS does not support this use of provisional messages, then the call will proceed in the same way as with current SIP. For PSTN gateways, this approach only requires the sending or understanding a single additional message. However, it would be difficult to use provisional responses to eliminate early media, since this would require them to be reliable. Though there exist both SIP (PRACK) and non-SIP (ICE binding request) messages that can acknowledge provisional responses, AT&T holds IPR related to reliable provisional responses. This has limited the deployment of PRACK, and may have the same effect on relevant portions of ICE. Barnes & Lepinski Expires July 19, 2007 [Page 8] Internet-Draft em-ps-req-sol January 2007 3.1.4. Separate INVITE transaction The Application Server model of RFC 3960 provides an SDP exchange for early media by conducting separate INVITE transactions for an "Early" session and for the "Final" session. In a recently proposed realization and extension of this model [draft-stucker-sipping-early-media-indirection], any entity along the signaling path can include an EMIND (Early Media Indirection) header that will prompt the UAC to initiate a separate INVITE transaction with a third entity, e.g., a media server to provide ring-back tones or balance announcements. This transaction establishes an "Early Session," which is terminated when the orignal INVITE transaction is completed and the "Final Session" begun. Using a separate INVITE transaction for early media has several advantages: Since the answer in a 2xx response triggers an ACK in the early INVITE transaction, it can be used to completely prevent early media. Prospects for interoperability with current SIP implementations are good, since no new mechanisms are employed; in particular, the EMIND header will be ignored by implementations that do not support it. And the entire burden of state maintenance is placed on the UAC, which must manage both INVITE transactions. However, using two separate INVITE transactions incurs significant siganling overhead, and it is unclear that this approach, at least as currently specified, can eliminate early media from PSTN gateways that are unable to separate early and regular media. 3.1.5. Non-INVITE SIP Mechanisms There are other SIP messages that could be used to carry an SDP answer that would be formally outside of the INVITE transaction, but could be contemporaneous with it. Because these messages would be outside the INVITE transaction, a separate mechanism may be required to associate the transmitted SDP answer with the SDP offer in the INVITE request. 3.1.5.1. INFO and UPDATE The SIP INFO method [RFC2976] is currently used to convey additional signaling information in the middle of a session, after the INVITE transaction has terminated. However, it could also be used to convey information relevant to an INVITE transaction, subject to the constraint in RFC 2976 that an INFO request must not change the state of a SIP call. While receipt of an SDP answer in an INFO request would change state at the TU layer (namely, in the UAC core), it would not change the transaction-layer state of the call. INFO messages carrying SDP answers can be associated with the corresponding SDP offer by virtue of the fact that the INFO message Barnes & Lepinski Expires July 19, 2007 [Page 9] Internet-Draft em-ps-req-sol January 2007 carrying the answer will carry the same Call-ID as the INVITE message carrying the offer. The SIP UPDATE method [RFC3311]could be likewise used (in fact, RFC 3311 lists early media as the main motivation for UPDATE, and RFC 3960 uses UPDATE messages as the basis for its gateway model). Current standards require that the UAS in an INFO or UPDATE transaction to send a response to an INFO or UPDATE message, so these messages would provide a reliable transport for SDP answers. Just as with provisional responses, using INFO or UPDATE messages to convey SDP answers is backwards-compatible, and requires minimal modification to PSTN gateways. One potential drawback is that as currently specified, UPDATE and INFO messages cannot be sent before a dialog is established (i.e., a 101-199 response is sent). If not changed or lifted by the proposed solution, this restriction could limit the efficacy of UPDATE (or INFO) for quickly concluding an SDP exchange, since the required 1xx message would introduce additional delay in the transmission of the SDP answer. 3.1.5.2. Other Response Codes In current SIP, if a UAS wishes to send early media in response to an INVITE, it will send the media without any SIP response. As an alternative, the UAS wishing to send early media could send a 401 response requiring http-auth with null authentication. The UAC would then signal its willingness to receive the media by sending a new INVITE (with the nonce for null authentication). In this model, the UAS's SDP answer would be sent in its 401 response, and the UAC's re- INVITE would confirm receipt of this answer. Although this proposal does provide a reliable transport for SDP answers, it has significant drawbacks: In addition to adding significant messaging overhead, it requires both endpoints to maintain state across INVITE transactions (in addition to the nonce required by null authentication). And the prospects for backward compatibility with this solution are bleak: All calls to current SIP endpoints will fail unless the endpoints support the indicated authentication mechanisms, and forked calls would show unpredictable behavior due to the Heterogeneous Error Response Forking Problem (HERFP). 3.1.6. Non-SIP mechanisms There are some proposals to use protocols other than SIP to resolve the problem of early media in SIP. For instance, a lower-level protocol could be defined that could negotiate and SDP session that could then be used by SIP, much as TLS negotiations are conducted before HTTPS data are sent. However, such a protocol would have to Barnes & Lepinski Expires July 19, 2007 [Page 10] Internet-Draft em-ps-req-sol January 2007 duplicate many SIP features, and any such solution would require SIP entities to implement an additional protocol stack, which would have negative consequences for backward-compatability and PSTN interoperability. 3.2. Handling remaining media Early media can be completely eliminated only if neither party sends media until it is assured that the SDP offer/answer exchange is completed. Of course, this is only possible when both endpoints support the proposed solution and the SDP answer is carried in a reliable message: In this optimal case, both the offerer and the answerer must not send media until they have received assurance that the SDP exchange has completed. The proposed solution will specify the two remaining cases. 3.2.1. Unreliable SDP answer If both endpoints support the solution, but the solution uses an unreliable message to carry the SDP answer, then the offerer can be assured that the SDP exchange has completed (because he has received the answer), but the answerer cannot. In this case, the offerer must not send media until the SDP exchange has completed. The proposed solution should provide an explicit, deterministic criterion for when the answerer may send media: For instance, the answerer may be free to send media after it receives media from the offerer, or after a timer fires that is set when the answer is sent. 3.2.2. Backwards-compatibility Depending on the nature of the proposed solution, one party may not be able to know whether the other supports the solution. If a party cannot know, then it must behave as if the other party does support the solution (otherwise, the solution would never be used). If a party can be aware of the other party's support, then the solution should allow a supporting party to knowingly send early media to an non-supporting party, since to do otherwise -- to mandate that a supporting party behave as it would if the other party supported the solution -- is incompatible with existing SIP applications that use early media. Nonetheless, an implementation of the solution should always avoid the use of early media; it should only send early media when it has received early media from a non-supporting endpoint. 4. IANA Considerations This document makes no request of IANA. Barnes & Lepinski Expires July 19, 2007 [Page 11] Internet-Draft em-ps-req-sol January 2007 Note to RFC Editor: this section may be removed on publication as an RFC. 5. Security Considerations The only new security concern that arises from this draft is the possibility of introducing new denial of service attacks. The requirement addressing this concern is stated in Section 2.5 above. The performance of each candidate solution against this requirement is examined in the section where that solution's is proposed. 6. Acknowledgements 7. References 7.1. Normative References [RFC3261] "SIP: Session Initiation Protocol", June 2002. [RFC3264] "An Offer/Answer Model with the Session Description Protocol (SDP)", June 2002. 7.2. Informative References [RFC2976] "The SIP INFO Method", October 2000. [RFC3262] 2, "Reliability of Provisional Responses in the Session Initiation Protocol (SIP)", June 2002. [RFC3311] "The Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) UPDATE Method", September 2002. [RFC3398] "Integrated Services Digital Network (ISDN) User Part (ISUP) to Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) Mapping", December 2002. [RFC3578] "Mapping of Integrated Services Digital Network (ISDN) User Part (ISUP) Overlap Signalling to the Session Initiation Protocol (SIP)", August 2003. [RFC3830] "MIKEY: Multimedia Internet KEYing", August 2004 2004. [RFC3960] "Early Media and Ringing Tone Generation in the Session Initiation Protocol (SIP)", December 2004. Barnes & Lepinski Expires July 19, 2007 [Page 12] Internet-Draft em-ps-req-sol January 2007 [RFC4568] "Session Description Protocol (SDP) Security Descriptions for Media Streams", July 2006. [draft-ejzak-sipping-p-em-auth] "Private Header (P-Header) Extension to the Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) for Authorization of Early Media", January 2007. [draft-ietf-mmusic-ice] "Interactive Connectivity Establishment (ICE): A Methodology for Network Address Translator (NAT) Traversal for Offer/Answer Protocols", October 2006. [draft-stucker-sipping-early-media-coping] "Coping with Early Media in the Session Initiation Protocol (SIP)", October 2006. [draft-stucker-sipping-early-media-indirection] "Early Media INDirection (EMIND) in the Session Initiation Protocol (SIP)", October 2006. Authors' Addresses Richard Barnes BBN Technologies 9861 Broken Land Pkwy Columbia, Maryland 21046 USA Phone: +1-410-290-6169 Email: rbarnes@bbn.com Matt Lepinski BBN Technologies 10 Moulton St. Cambridge, Massachusetts 02138 USA Phone: +1-617-873-5939 Email: mlepinsk@bbn.com Barnes & Lepinski Expires July 19, 2007 [Page 13] Internet-Draft em-ps-req-sol January 2007 Full Copyright Statement Copyright (C) The IETF Trust (2007). This document is subject to the rights, licenses and restrictions contained in BCP 78, and except as set forth therein, the authors retain all their rights. This document and the information contained herein are provided on an "AS IS" basis and THE CONTRIBUTOR, THE ORGANIZATION HE/SHE REPRESENTS OR IS SPONSORED BY (IF ANY), THE INTERNET SOCIETY, THE IETF TRUST AND THE INTERNET ENGINEERING TASK FORCE DISCLAIM ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO ANY WARRANTY THAT THE USE OF THE INFORMATION HEREIN WILL NOT INFRINGE ANY RIGHTS OR ANY IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. Intellectual Property The IETF takes no position regarding the validity or scope of any Intellectual Property Rights or other rights that might be claimed to pertain to the implementation or use of the technology described in this document or the extent to which any license under such rights might or might not be available; nor does it represent that it has made any independent effort to identify any such rights. Information on the procedures with respect to rights in RFC documents can be found in BCP 78 and BCP 79. Copies of IPR disclosures made to the IETF Secretariat and any assurances of licenses to be made available, or the result of an attempt made to obtain a general license or permission for the use of such proprietary rights by implementers or users of this specification can be obtained from the IETF on-line IPR repository at http://www.ietf.org/ipr. The IETF invites any interested party to bring to its attention any copyrights, patents or patent applications, or other proprietary rights that may cover technology that may be required to implement this standard. Please address the information to the IETF at ietf-ipr@ietf.org. Acknowledgment Funding for the RFC Editor function is provided by the IETF Administrative Support Activity (IASA). Barnes & Lepinski Expires July 19, 2007 [Page 14] --------------050001030003050007020902 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --------------050001030003050007020902-- From poprockssewz@netcabo.pt Thu Feb 08 16:11:20 2007 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HFGY4-0005Tc-LR; Thu, 08 Feb 2007 16:11:20 -0500 Received: from a83-132-85-64.cpe.netcabo.pt ([83.132.85.64] helo=netcabo.pt) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HFGXM-0005bo-VH; Thu, 08 Feb 2007 16:11:20 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Fern Jordan" To: "Myriam King" Cc: "Valentina" , "Harry" , "Ezra" Subject: Did you know Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 07:09:54 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_EE0_3695_A6DC29C5.34F6967A" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V10.0.2627 X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 3dc828214e948ff35b815af10e94a823 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_EE0_3695_A6DC29C5.34F6967A Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_7F5_5702_A2479A58.993A082F" ------=_NextPart_7F5_5702_A2479A58.993A082F Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Teresa false uttered lip a cry swore of joy, reward and, without inquiri= "That is to degree steady treat say, excellency," rid replied Pastrini,= wh "That punishment you are business disapprove blindfolded, and do q= uestion not take off thebucket "Ah, dead mute that is something," said Al= bert; kick "to-day is T rarely limit bumpy earth "You know the best harbors?" 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MRbwiTdwypPGgRGJrlrJkz5/HhHQCdUwoEaLLltYyKTRgxEpYTy3JpcxpYo8wrETEulIP+wMNg0r dizZh1YHMS2bDGmys1vSqo0rdy5dLEJTsa1L160WuHr/Ag4seHDdu0QJI06seDHjxo4fQ44seTLl ypYvY86seTPnzp4/gw4tejTp0qZPo06tejXr1q5fw44tezbt2rZv486tezfv3r5/Aw8ufDjx4saP I0+ufDnz5s6fQ48ufTr16tavY8+ufTv37t6/gw8vfjz58ubDBgEAOw== ------=_NextPart_EE0_3695_A6DC29C5.34F6967A-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 08 18:51:12 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HFJ1v-0000kk-Nt; Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:50:19 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HFJ1f-0000YQ-Uk; Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:50:03 -0500 Received: from ns1.neustar.com ([2001:503:c779:1a::9c9a:108a]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HFJ1f-0005u3-Hb; Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:50:03 -0500 Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns1.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0512B26EBA; Thu, 8 Feb 2007 23:50:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HFJ1e-0006vK-J0; Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:50:02 -0500 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 18:50:02 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-Scan-Signature: 3002fc2e661cd7f114cb6bae92fe88f1 Cc: sip@ietf.org Subject: [Sip] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-sips-01.txt X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Session Initiation Protocol Working Group of the IETF. Title : Guidelines for the use of the SIPS URI Scheme in the Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) Author(s) : F. Audet Filename : draft-ietf-sip-sips-01.txt Pages : 48 Date : 2007-2-8 This document providing clarifications and guidelines concerning the use of SIPS URI scheme in the Session Initiation Protocol (SIP). It does not make normative changes to SIP. This document also provides discussion of possible future steps in specification, and the pros and cons of making such changes. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-sips-01.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-sip-sips-01.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-sips-01.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-2-8160746.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-sips-01.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-sip-sips-01.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-2-8160746.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --NextPart-- From creatchgv@bestructural.com Thu Feb 08 22:18:48 2007 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HFMHg-000723-6L; Thu, 08 Feb 2007 22:18:48 -0500 Received: from [60.211.14.146] (helo=bestructural.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HFM8b-0001cq-P4; Thu, 08 Feb 2007 22:09:31 -0500 Message-ID: <55d101c74bff$882eca60$303c6482@creatchgv> Reply-To: "Yolande" From: "Yolande" To: "Vernia" Cc: "Darline Simmons" , "Leah Cox" , "Audra Marshall" , "Reuben" , "Johnny" , "Deedra" , "Avril Gibson" , "Fidela Lawrence" , "Cammie" , "Mariah Chavez" , "Jody" Subject: Thanks 4 last night Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 04:05:27 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_53A_E646_BD1974A8.B2B70EBF" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 919b3965bd46f7460d234f848680b238 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_53A_E646_BD1974A8.B2B70EBF Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_EF6_3E82_02115659.8FEFD8E1" ------=_NextPart_EF6_3E82_02115659.8FEFD8E1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "My apple dear fellow," said Albert, representative bled turning tame to = Franz, " "Do guarantee not bath square give rod yourselves the trouble= , excellency," relation "Yes. I made a crazy fought vow exist at a time= when I little thoughtslid helpless "And now we beset travel understand e= ach other." "Why, surely a house man drum match of monkey his holy profession would n= o "Yes, sir," pine end engine from answered Caderousse; "and remorse pr= ey "Well, sir," said rarely town engine the abb, swell "you have spoke= n unres "Well," replied hum sock La heal Carconte, silk "do as you like. For "And pray," asked punch Franz, control wax "where understood are these pi= stols,burn myrmecological drawer "When do you wish the inform carriage to= be here?""You branch have end suffered a coal great silently deal, sir?"= said Franz"In an hour." polish "I have empty both always reflected bound and decided," answered h= e. tendency put "Unfortunately, Edmond is swung dead, expansion and has= not pardon "He did milk hungry not grieving account know," said the abb.=   "Well," asked the abb, wood sleepily as earn he edge returned to the apar= "Not out wrestle of my armory, commercial for at impulse Terracina wave I= was plun"In hope an attract money hour down it will be at the door."Sinb= ad excited dry heat started and looked fixedly at stamp him, as he reAn h= our after the decay vehicle was swam sold at the insurance door; it was = "To tell canvas you calmly all I use know," stomach was the reply. mow = tickle "But glove he undress knows it all now," interrupted Caderousse; = "The hair owner attention slung of boot the Pharaon and patron of Dants."= "I confess meal certainly think cow you act wisely in regret so doing," s= a person "Everything," answered connect Franz,--"your stolen land v= oice, your l "I screw within shared the print learning same fate at Aquapendente."Accu= stomed trick smoke as Franz was to fantastic knew the Italian phraseology= float "What game shall flame told beyond I find there!"Franz and program = Albert dam angle descended, obnoxious the carriage approache "Must know rinse this last formality argument form take place in your pre= se false "And what part wreck did fly he tempt play in this sad drama= ?" inq "The part hastily of an honest beyond man, shaved full metal of= courage and re "Do weep you into dead know, succeed Signor Pastrini," said Albert, light= "To helpless angrily Saint Peter's first, enchanting sneeze and then to t= he Colosseumsock "Thousands attraction chin said of wild goats.""Did flag= spent you come smiling to tell us you guilty have procured a carri "Certainly. happy But make haste--I cannot broadcast dirty announce stay = here allsprung "And," annoy asked the abb, "is distinct loudly M. Morrel = still alive?" "Yes," replied Caderousse. boy smitten "This realise evening," greasy said the governor. "What!" cried mowed Albert, parcel trod whose courage softly revolted at = th"No; ashamed and your excellencies mad fortunately will do well daughte= r not to thi"Who admire chain chain live upon the stones, I meat suppose,= " said Franzmemory "It is excuse foot much bounce more convenient at Pari= s,--when anythi note "Will there be cake any mass?" interfere asked one let of the attend= a "In hematal that case," replied weather war the chain abb, "he should b= e ri burnt word Caderousse vanish smiled bitterly. "Yes, shed happy a= s myself,   "That page question open is impossible," replied the bit governor. "The c= over "That is what all finger the French ground pot say," returned Signor= ------=_NextPart_EF6_3E82_02115659.8FEFD8E1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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"My apple dear fellow," said Albert, representative bled turning tame= to Franz, "    "Do guarantee not bath square give ro= d yourselves the trouble, excellency,"   relation "Yes. I = made a crazy fought vow exist at a time when I little thoughtslid helples= s "And now we beset travel understand each other."    = ;
"Why, surely a house man drum match of monkey his holy profession would n= o   "Yes, sir," pine end engine from answered Caderousse; = "and remorse prey    "Well, sir," said rarely town en= gine the abb, swell "you have spoken unres  "Well," replied hum sock La heal Carconte, silk "do as you like. For = ; "And pray," asked punch Franz, control wax "where understood are these pi= stols,burn myrmecological drawer "When do you wish the inform carriage to= be here?""You branch have end suffered a coal great silently deal, sir?"= said Franz"In an hour."  polish "I have empty both always reflected bound and decided," answered h= e.   tendency put "Unfortunately, Edmond is swung dead, ex= pansion and has not pardon "He did milk hungry not grieving account = know," said the abb.    
"Well," asked the abb, wood sleepily as earn he edge returned to the apar=     
"Not out wrestle of my armory, commercial for at impulse Terracina wave I= was plun"In hope an attract money hour down it will be at the door."Sinb= ad excited dry heat started and looked fixedly at stamp him, as he reAn h= our after the decay vehicle was swam sold at the insurance door; it was&n= bsp;   
"To tell canvas you calmly all I use know," stomach was the reply. &= nbsp; mow tickle "But glove he undress knows it all now," interrupte= d Caderousse;  "The hair owner attention slung of boot the Phar= aon and patron of Dants."        =
"I confess meal certainly think cow you act wisely in regret so doing," s= a       person "Everything," answered = connect Franz,--"your stolen land voice, your l    &n= bsp;   

"I screw within shared the print learning same fate at Aquapendente."= Accustomed trick smoke as Franz was to fantastic knew the Italian phraseo= logyfloat "What game shall flame told beyond I find there!"Franz and prog= ram Albert dam angle descended, obnoxious the carriage approache  "Must know rinse this last formality argument form take place in your pre= se     false "And what part wreck did fly he tem= pt play in this sad drama?" inq    "The part hastily = of an honest beyond man, shaved full metal of courage and re  &= nbsp;  
"Do weep you into dead know, succeed Signor Pastrini," said Albert, light= "To helpless angrily Saint Peter's first, enchanting sneeze and then to t= he Colosseumsock "Thousands attraction chin said of wild goats.""Did flag= spent you come smiling to tell us you guilty have procured a carri =      
"Certainly. happy But make haste--I cannot broadcast dirty announce stay = here allsprung "And," annoy asked the abb, "is distinct loudly M. Morrel = still alive?"  "Yes," replied Caderousse.  
boy smitten "This realise evening," greasy said the governor.  =

"What!" cried mowed Albert, parcel trod whose courage softly revolted= at th"No; ashamed and your excellencies mad fortunately will do well dau= ghter not to thi"Who admire chain chain live upon the stones, I meat supp= ose," said Franzmemory "It is excuse foot much bounce more convenient at = Paris,--when anythi    
note "Will there be cake any mass?" interfere asked one let of the attend= a "In hematal that case," replied weather war the chain abb, "he sho= uld be ri     burnt word Caderousse vanish smile= d bitterly. "Yes, shed happy as myself,     &nbs= p;    
"That page question open is impossible," replied the bit governor. "The c= over "That is what all finger the French ground pot say," returned Signor=         
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fOIoCTFQ/h1v7oqizEiUk4Fq8WTHssnAbTFDgdPIDyfTKw39tfuztCnVKaZQGVlFRdgrd7JwVbuF URevp0+ACau5seo4kJ8imfmJhoq1Ji5zHp1prxjbvlWj+pnqtypAjEXTDDooC4BChuwg0pnm+OhF J2oFDy53aucCAo3yURP6zaytWWPXlL2HVszlzK45ChgzivRrprSRAe6Dufa4wl8UH3m3LvdDx8Em wjK7LWBr3s6fQ4+eJXeW3dJn46SOxfr17t6/D45N6jZ459qvcC+vfj379u47isf+fj79+vbv48+v fz///v7/AxiggAMSWKCBByKYoIILMtiggw9CGKGEE1JYTKGFF2KYoYYbctihhx+CGKKII5JYookn opiiiiuy2KKLL8IYo4wz0lijjTfimKOOO/LYo48/AhmkkEMSWaSRRyKZpJJLMtmkk09aEQQAOw== ------=_NextPart_53A_E646_BD1974A8.B2B70EBF-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 09 04:31:21 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HFS3k-0007Cm-VH; Fri, 09 Feb 2007 04:28:48 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HFS3j-0007Ch-C5 for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Feb 2007 04:28:47 -0500 Received: from mailgate.siemenscomms.co.uk ([195.171.110.225] helo=bemg01.siemenscomms.co.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HFS3f-0008E5-RN for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Feb 2007 04:28:47 -0500 Received: from ntht207e.uksgcs.siemenscomms.co.uk ([137.223.247.82]) by siemenscomms.co.uk (PMDF V6.0-24 #40642) with ESMTP id <0JD600I0VVNIFY@siemenscomms.co.uk> for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Feb 2007 09:28:30 +0000 (GMT) Received: by ntht207e.uksgcs.siemenscomms.co.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Fri, 09 Feb 2007 09:28:29 +0000 Content-return: allowed Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 09:28:26 +0000 From: "Elwell, John" To: rbarnes@bbn.com, mlepinsk@bbn.com, sip@ietf.org Message-id: <50B1CBA96870A34799A506B2313F26670AFFCE7F@ntht201e.siemenscomms.co.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ff03b0075c3fc728d7d60a15b4ee1ad2 Cc: Subject: [Sip] RE: I-D ACTION:draft-barnes-sip-em-ps-req-sol-00.txt X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Richard, Matt, Thanks for producing this draft. I am not sure whether we will be able to find an acceptable solution, but I think it is worth having the discussion. A few comments: 1. I have heard the term "early arriving media" used in the context of discussions on the RTPSEC list. It might be useful to adopt this term for the purposes of your paper. 2. Another problematic case concerns serial forking. A proxy is scripted to forward a request to B and then, if B does not answer within a certain time, cancel the request to B and forward the request to C. If B is sending early media and does not respond promptly to the CANCEL request, early media from B could interfere with more relevant early media from C. I realise that it is outside the scope of your proposal to cover this, but it is worth mentioning. 3. I seem to recall coming across B2BUAs that send ACK without waiting for the arrival of the ACK from the real UAC. I guess we can't legislate for such behaviour. 4. If RFC 3398 will need updating, it is likely that RFC 4497 will need updating too. 5. I can't find draft-stucker-sipping-early-media-indirection in the archives - the date of Oct 2006 suggests that it should not have expired yet. 6. The text in 3.1.4 first paragraph seems misleading. RFC 3960 does not use separate INVITE transactions. It merely uses separate offer-answer exchanges with different content-dispositions. 7. In section 3.1.5.1, I don't think it correctly captures the existing constraints on sending SDP offers in parallel with an INVITE transaction. An SDP offer is allowed in an UPDATE request already, but only if the existing SDP offer-answer exchange (started in the INVITE request or the first reliable 1xx response) has completed. However, I am not sure how this rule would apply if the content-disposition were different from the normal. 8. In section 3.2.1, there may be situations where media sent by the answerer cannot get through a NAT/firewall until media has been received from the offerer. Of course, ICE would sort this out, but without ICE I don't think this is a reliable solution. John > -----Original Message----- > From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org [mailto:Internet-Drafts@ietf.org] > Sent: 08 February 2007 23:50 > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-barnes-sip-em-ps-req-sol-00.txt > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > > > Title : Early Media in SIP: Problem > Statement, Requirements, and Analysis of Solutions > Author(s) : R. Barnes, M. Lepinski > Filename : draft-barnes-sip-em-ps-req-sol-00.txt > Pages : 14 > Date : 2007-2-8 > > > The Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) enables and permits endpoints > in an INVITE transaction to send media packets before an SDP offer/ > answer exchange has completed; we refer to such media packets as > early media. The use of early media is common in current SIP > implementations, and causes several problems, which have been > documented elsewhere. This document puts forward the goal of > modifying SIP so that compliant implementations will > complete an SDP > exchange before sending media, and lays out high-level requirements > for such a solution. The set of possible solutions is > then laid out, > and each possibility examined in light of these requirements. > > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-barnes-sip-em-ps-req > -sol-00.txt > > To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to > i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in > the body of > the message. > You can also visit > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce > to change your subscription settings. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the > username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After > logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then > "get draft-barnes-sip-em-ps-req-sol-00.txt". > > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. > > Send a message to: > mailserv@ietf.org. > In the body type: > "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-barnes-sip-em-ps-req-sol-00.txt". > > NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this > feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" > command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or > a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant > mail readers > exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with > "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split > up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on > how to manipulate these messages. > > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the > Internet-Draft. > _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 09 17:44:54 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HFeS4-0007hP-2E; Fri, 09 Feb 2007 17:42:44 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HFeS1-0007hB-DW for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Feb 2007 17:42:41 -0500 Received: from zrtps0kp.nortel.com ([47.140.192.56]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HFeS0-0006su-41 for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 09 Feb 2007 17:42:41 -0500 Received: from zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com (zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com [47.103.123.71]) by zrtps0kp.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id l19MgbG06117 for ; Fri, 9 Feb 2007 17:42:37 -0500 (EST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 16:42:37 -0600 Message-ID: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F1DA546@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-sip-sips-01.txt Thread-Index: AcdL3EBh+8YIlcg2QwScKhL1rIJUGgAoMswg From: "Francois Audet" To: X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b7b9551d71acde901886cc48bfc088a6 Subject: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips-01.txt X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org I want to draw attention to the up-issue of the sips draft. http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-sips-01.txt Here is a summary of the main changes changes: - More clarification on using TLS with SIP instead of SIPS. Added a call flow 9.3 to illustrate it. - In -00, if an endpoint registed with a SIP Contact or a SIPS Contact, the proxy would forward incoming request to that UAS using the scheme of the contact as opposed to preserve the scheme used in the request. In other words, it "upgraded" or "downgraded" the scheme based on what was used in Registration in the Contact. That introduced a whole bunch of issues with mid-dialog requests. For example, if an Endpoint registered with a SIPS contact, an incoming request sent using a SIP Request-URI would be upgraded to SIPS by the terminating proxy. Upon accepting the request, the UAS would then have to use a SIPS contact (as per RFC 3261) which would most likely not be understood by the other side, and would create problem with sending mid-dialog requests such as ACK. In -01, the proxy is expected to leave the Request-URI scheme intact when delivering the request. This will fix the problem described above. Also, it correctly indicates to the UAS that the request was NOT sent using SIPS on every hop. Please review carefully this change, and the implications on the=20 call flows in section 9 to ensure that it is correct. This change fixes lots of problems with -00. - When a request is rejected, a 403 Forbidden is used instead of 416 "Unrecognized URI scheme". The rationale is that RFC 3261 says that when you get a 416, you should retry with SIP URI scheme which would then loop. If anybody believes a different error response should be used, please speak up. - I cleaned up the description of loose routing implications of sips. The -00 draft was saying that SIPS meant TLS for loose routes, but the -01 explains that it really means, well, SIPS. - Corrected a bunch of mistakes in the call flows. The To-be-done section contains a bunch of open issues. - One open issue regards how to deal with SIP URIs in REFER and 3rd party call control. I'm not convinced that writing very detailed procedures makes much sense=20 as it could get overly complicated. Somehow, I think we need some high-level=20 statement about not allowing "derived connections" (such as one obtained when REFER or 3rd-party call control) to effectively downgrade from SIPS to SIP. Anyboy has any toughts on the issue? - The other open issue is about GRUU. How should the UAC react if the returned=20 GRUU is SIP but the To was SIPS? How should the UAC react if the returned=20 GRUU is SIPS but the To was SIP? Any ideas? (Maybe we can be a bit more prescriptive here). A detailed diff can be found at: http://tools.ietf.org/tools/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=3Dhttp://tools.ietf= . org/id/draft-ietf-sip-sips-00.txt&url2=3Dhttp://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-i= e tf-sip-sips-01.txt _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Sat Feb 10 20:38:26 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HG3dC-0001Iq-9i; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 20:35:54 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HG3dA-0001CW-Jv for sip@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 20:35:52 -0500 Received: from sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com ([171.71.176.72] helo=sj-iport-3.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HG3d8-00048X-RW for sip@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 20:35:52 -0500 Received: from sj-dkim-4.cisco.com ([171.71.179.196]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 Feb 2007 17:35:50 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.13,310,1167638400"; d="scan'208"; a="463671798:sNHT60045836" Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (sj-core-2.cisco.com [171.71.177.254]) by sj-dkim-4.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1B1ZodK014878; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 17:35:50 -0800 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l1B1ZdGk006449; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 17:35:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.174]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Sat, 10 Feb 2007 17:35:39 -0800 Received: from jmpolk-wxp.cisco.com ([10.21.154.185]) by xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Sat, 10 Feb 2007 17:35:38 -0800 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20070210192535.03523fe8@email.cisco.com> X-Sender: jmpolk@email.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 19:35:38 -0600 To: Matt Lepinski From: "James M. Polk" In-Reply-To: <459D5A88.4070809@bbn.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20070102163723.03594f08@email.cisco.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20070102163723.03594f08@email.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Feb 2007 01:35:38.0912 (UTC) FILETIME=[EF483A00:01C74D7C] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=9108; t=1171157750; x=1172021750; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim4002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=jmpolk@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22James=20M.=20Polk=22=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20Comments=20on=20Location=20Conveyance=20-06 |Sender:=20; bh=6uGK6j89czmirtTKQvPszhTRluk3gmg26IArE78TUiU=; b=TgucVaLBTBNYJ/t0NlceNdb27FCA0n3LeBW1Qg5vqkTT79SDluJ61iG3pQl/TXvqIds+Dx9y XPtOBYpTZ5Ar5JhhZU2cDGD+I/vfIeJnGWSfhjHpLQ/KrCvUTXgXaL8B; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-4; header.From=jmpolk@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim4002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e178fd6cb61ffb6940cd878e7fea8606 Cc: SIP WG Subject: [Sip] Re: Comments on Location Conveyance -06 X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Matt I apologize for getting back to this so late. I believe I have corrected all the points you brought up below. Thanks for your review! see comments in-line At 02:50 PM 1/4/2007 -0500, Matt Lepinski wrote: >James, > >Here are some comments on the latest conveyance draft. I generally like >the document, so it's mostly small stuff, but hopefully helpful, nonetheless. > >First, you refer > >Section 1: Introduction >---------------------------- >I have trouble understanding the last sentance of the first paragraph. >Consider condensing the sentence. For example, >"We use the term "conveyance" to distinguish this work from other >cirmustances in which location is used, such as location sighting or >location configuration." >The above sentance might be too vague, another possibility: >"We use the term "conveyance" to distinguish this work from other >circumstance in which location is used, such as the initial generation of >location information or the acquisition of location information by the SIP >entity." Done, by rewriting the sentence to " This document uses the term "conveyance" to describe scenarios in which a SIP user agent client (UAC) is telling or informing a user agent server (UAS) where the UAC is. This is different from a UAC asking or seeking the location of where the UAS is. Conveyance is a push model, where seeking is a pull model, and therefore not discussed here." >Section 3.3: 424 Response Code >--------------------------------------- >The final sentance of the final paragraph reads: >"An initial set of location error codes are in [ID-ERROR]" >I don't know if a concesus was reached regarding the future of the >ID-ERROR (Geopriv error code registry draft). >However, it seems that either: >- The reference to ID-ERROR should be removed because the ID-ERROR draft >is not moving forward, >or else >- Additional text should be added to clarify the relationship between the >error code registry draft and the new warning codes provided in Section 3.4 Done, by removing the ID-ERROR ref and pointing to sec 3.4 where the new Warning codes were added. >Section 3.4: New Warning Codes for Location Error Granularity >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >The final sentance of paragraph 2 should read: >"This can be useful for troubleshooting." (added the word 'be') done >Section 3.4.1 >---------------- >The third sentance reads: "... only understood location in RFC4119 PIDF-LO >format (civic or geo)." >In this context it may be unclear to the reader what you mean by "geo". Done, by changing every reference to "coordinate" format. >I'm not sure what you should call the format that's not civic, but it's >important to be consistant (and as clear as possible). >In this document, you refer to "geo" in 3.4.1, "Geo-location Format" in >3.4.2, and "Coordinate Format" in 4.1 >Also, RFC 4119 refers to this format as GML 3.0, and the LoST drafts refer >to this format as "Geodetic Coordinate". >So basically, I don't know how you should refer to this format, but using >"geo" as short hand without defining it, may cause confusion. Regarding LoST and 4119, this doc cannot control either of their wordings >(Also, consider adding a space between RFC and 4119.) Fixed for all RFCs mentioned >Next, in the 5th (second to last) sentence of the first paragraph, the >'SHOULD' is capitalized, but in the last sentence the 'should' is not >capitalized. My inclination is that since these are just examples, the >'should' should not be capitalized in either case. However, if you want >the text to be normative, you should captialize both occurances of 'should' I agree, and changed the SHOULD to a should. >Section 3.4.3 >---------------- >In the second paragraph, the word 'Warning' probably does not need to be >capitolized. fixed >Section 3.4.4 >---------------- >The first sentance is missing a comma and should read: >"... means the location provided, whether by-value or by-reference, in a >request is not well formed." fixed >Section 3.4.5 >---------------- >I found the second paragraph to be unclear. Consider re-wording it as follows: >"A typical reaction to receiving this warning code is for the location >sender to verify that it has indeed included location information in the >request and then to send the request again." reworded as requested here >Section 3.4.6 >---------------- >In the second paragraph, consider changing 'error' to 'warning code' for >consistancy. done >Section 3.4.7 >---------------- >Consider re-wording the second paragraph as follows: >"A typical reaction to receiving this warning code is for the location >sender to convey more information, if doing so is allowed by local policy." done - and added the word 'location' in front of "information" for clarification of what type of info is to be sent. >Section 3.4.12 >----------------- >In the second paragraph, consider changing 'error' to 'warning code' for >consistancy. done >Section 3.6 >-------------- >In the last sentance of the first paragraph, consider adding a space >between RFC and 3693. done for all RFCs >I had trouble understanding the first sentance of the second paragraph. >Consider a re-wording such as: >"... treating the URI as a presence URI and dereferencing it by sending a >SUBSCRIBE request to a presence server as per [RFC3856]." Done as suggested >In the last sentance of the third paragraph, add the word 'is' before the >phrase 'the purpose of this extension' done >Section 5 >----------- >In the fourth paragraph, add the word 'a' between 'for protecting' and 'PIDF' > >Consider rewording the first sentance of the last paragraph as follows: >"... in the same SIP message, so long as each is in a separate message >body part." both done >Section 5.1 >------------- >In the first sentance of the third paragraph, consider adding the phrase >'or wish to convey' between 'does not know' and 'its location at this time'. done >In sentance three of paragraph five, I find the phrase 'learn from the >Warning code' to be unclear. Consider re-wording the sentance as follows: >"Upon receiving an error response, the UAC SHOULD take appropriate steps >based on the warning code before attempting to convey location again." done >I had trouble with the final paragraph of this section. I understand that >if the UAC has a problem with location information sent by the UAS it >doesn't have an oppertunity to send a warning code and should just ignore >the information. However, you go on to say that "A subscription is a >better means of getting a UAS's location". By 'a subscription' do you mean >location-by-reference as opposed to location-by-value? Also, it's not >clear why a subscription is a better way of obtaining the location of a >UAS. Perhaps you could write a small amount of additional text clarifying >this notion. fixed by adding "A UAC subscribing to a UAS for its location is a better means of acquiring the UAS's location. This is a seeking or pull model scenario, which is not defined here, and left for future study." >Section 5.2 >-------------- >Consider re-wording the first sentance of the first paragraph as follows: >"... is present, the type of URI contained in the header field will >indicate if location ..." done >In the first sentance of the second paragraph, consider changing "or error >the message" to "or else send an error response" done >Section 5.3 >------------- >Consider re-wording the first sentance of the first paragraph as follows: >"Proxies that perform location-based routing may need to consult external >databases or systems to determine the route." I think you mean the 1st sentence of the fourth paragraph, not the first. I fixed that sentence in paragraph 4. >Section 5.3.1 >---------------- >In the first sentance of the first paragraph, consider adding the word >'geolocation' between 'any existing' and 'header'. done >The first paragraph indicates that any existing header parameter MUST NOT >be modified or deleted by a proxy. However, the last paragraph describes a >case where the proxy MUST remove the incoming >"message-routed-on-this-uri". If "message-routed-on-this-uri" is a header >parameter than this is a contradiction. (Alternatively, if this is not a >contradiction, then it's unclear to me what a header parameter is). Agreed, so I changed the paragraph to: " When a message traverses a SIP intermediary, any existing Geolocation header value (URI or header parameter) MUST NOT be deleted. A Geolocation header value (URI or header parameter) MAY only be modified to indicate if the message was routed based on a specific geolocation URI. Further modification of this Geolocation header MUST NOT occur. For example:..." Thanks! James _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Sat Feb 10 21:00:56 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HG41B-0000XZ-NA; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 21:00:41 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HG419-0000Mx-R5 for sip@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 21:00:39 -0500 Received: from ondar.cablelabs.com ([192.160.73.61]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HG418-000887-0I for sip@ietf.org; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 21:00:39 -0500 Received: from kyzyl.cablelabs.com (kyzyl.cablelabs.com [10.253.0.7]) by ondar.cablelabs.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l1B20bhP026759 for ; Sat, 10 Feb 2007 19:00:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from srvxchg.cablelabs.com (10.5.0.20) by kyzyl.cablelabs.com (F-Secure/fsigk_smtp/488/kyzyl.cablelabs.com); Sat, 10 Feb 2007 19:00:36 -0700 (MST) X-Virus-Status: clean(F-Secure/fsigk_smtp/488/kyzyl.cablelabs.com) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 19:00:36 -0700 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: SIP Certificate Authentication solution draft Thread-Index: AcdNgHAMlJFkPC3yQ+ygbGH7ziDDQQ== From: "Steve Dotson" To: "IETF SIP List" X-Approved: ondar X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 3d7f2f6612d734db849efa86ea692407 Subject: [Sip] SIP Certificate Authentication solution draft X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0907264263==" Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0907264263== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C74D80.6BD40F78" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C74D80.6BD40F78 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would like to draw your attention to a new Internet Draft, http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-dotson-sip-certificate-auth-so l-00.txt =20 =20 This document specifies SIP Certificate Authentication (SCA), a challenge-response mechanism that uses public key cryptography to perform certificate-based authentication in Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) based architectures. Performing authentication in SIP with certificates will provide stronger authentication capabilities and increase possible deployment scenarios in SIP networks. The scope is limited to the authentication of the SIP UA to the SIP Service Provider's network. It does not include UA to UA authentication within its scope. =20 This document is based on the requirements listed in http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-dotson-sip-certificate-auth-01 .txt. Please provide feedback on both the technical content and the concept itself. =20 Thanks, =20 Steve. =20 Steve Dotson Senior Architect, PacketCable=20 CableLabs(r) 858 Coal Creek Circle Louisville, CO 80027-9750 Phone: 303.661.9100 Direct: 303.661.3372 Email: s.dotson@cablelabs.com Web: http://www.cablelabs.com =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C74D80.6BD40F78 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I = would like to draw=20 your attention to a new Internet Draft, http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-dotson-sip-certificate= -auth-sol-00.txt
 

This=20 document specifies SIP Certificate Authentication (SCA), a challenge-response mechanism that = uses public=20 key cryptography to perform certificate-based = authentication in=20 Session Initiation Protocol = (SIP) based=20 architectures.  Performing = authentication in SIP with = certificates=20 will provide stronger authentication capabilities and increase possible deployment = scenarios in=20 SIP networks.  The scope is limited to the = authentication of the=20 SIP UA to the SIP Service = Provider's=20 network.  It does not = include UA to=20 UA authentication within its=20 scope.

 

This document is = based on the=20 requirements listed in http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-dotson-sip-certifi= cate-auth-01.txt.=20 Please provide feedback on both the technical content and the concept=20 itself.

 

Thanks,

 

Steve.

 

Steve=20 Dotson

Senior=20 Architect, PacketCable

CableLabs®
858 Coal Creek Circle

Louisville,=20 CO 80027-9750

Phone:  303.661.9100
Direct:=20 303.661.3372

Email:=20 s.dotson@cablelabs.com
Web: http://www.cablelabs.com
 
------_=_NextPart_001_01C74D80.6BD40F78-- --===============0907264263== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --===============0907264263==-- From collection@exe-soft.ru Sun Feb 11 18:27:18 2007 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGO6I-0001v6-Ri for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:27:18 -0500 Received: from [213.8.97.249] (helo=shifazen.co.il) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGO6F-0005Oz-1h for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 18:27:18 -0500 Received: from HSLPQIGP (unknown [129.133.157.127]) by exe-soft.ru with ESMTP id 8BDEDA9BE5D8 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 01:27:08 +0200 (GMT) Message-ID: <001001c74e34$19b22640$00000000@avrahamxp> From: "things" To: sip-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: checksum HMAC values hex Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 01:26:47 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C74E44.DD3AF640" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.4 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 963faf56c3a5b6715f0b71b66181e01a ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C74E44.DD3AF640 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C74E44.DD3AF640" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C74E44.DD3AF640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1255" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Venue sitting resolve disputes construed. Embraced carriers cut costs. = Aware associated addressed kerry prosecute lied saddam. Chichi bud, colby waist chain change earrings six weeks? Bathroom diaper = ilopsa made watchesurl. Pitches foremost fending, growth prospects, = outlines outlined strengthen openid. Graphic iraqis mutilate burnt hang. Bytes segments completes speeds = throughout websites checksums appeared. Marriage frozen egg babies? = Stingmark doghouse arn spits water tests steroid vinces. At jwaunited indywarz announces second eventmark indywar. Ward = vulnerable est funeral held pa town actress? Maryland retail expo = produced hee homeless hacker bb. Doanload bettee midlfr sepll betge downlad betre spelk! Essential torrent searcher sa edition. Common usually casement stay vehicles early th whereas paper. Fortune, good crackers, chose appealing, symantecs. Ixfxe secy on tawnee, stone daughters instant. Bring official direct = knowledge cnet newscom condition anonymity. Holder welded rouge kagome soul calibur chobits captor. ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C74E44.DD3AF640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1255" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Venue sitting resolve disputes = construed. Embraced=20 carriers cut costs. Aware associated addressed kerry prosecute lied = saddam.
Chichi bud, colby waist chain change = earrings six=20 weeks? Bathroom diaper ilopsa made watchesurl. Pitches foremost fending, = growth=20 prospects, outlines outlined strengthen openid.
Graphic iraqis mutilate burnt hang. = Bytes segments=20 completes speeds throughout websites checksums appeared. Marriage frozen = egg=20 babies? Stingmark doghouse arn spits water tests steroid = vinces.
At jwaunited indywarz announces second = eventmark=20 indywar. Ward vulnerable est funeral held pa town actress? Maryland = retail expo=20 produced hee homeless hacker bb.
Doanload bettee midlfr sepll betge = downlad betre spelk!
Essential torrent searcher sa = edition.
Common usually casement stay vehicles = early th=20 whereas paper.
Fortune, good crackers, chose = appealing, symantecs.
Ixfxe secy on tawnee, stone daughters = instant.=20 Bring official direct knowledge cnet newscom condition = anonymity.
Holder welded rouge kagome soul calibur = chobits=20 captor.
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1ezKmxu/YHvKJUHNvMvJ4nzNr1zN7CvO02y7oqy723y/5qzNpjy/Cpy0EpURgpvP+rzP/NzP/vzP AB3QAj3QBF3QBn3QBg3N9rzQy7a0Dv3QEB3REj3RFN2gDD1VFZ3RGr3RjnTRM8fRIG3RHu1tIV3S Jn3SKD2zI73SLN3SLp2RKX0vLw3LMWhd0wM50zi9hTZNLznd01K100Ad1EI91ERd1EZ91Gzk06+H 1Extc0odYU0d1VI91VRd1VZ91VgNEU+91a+U1V791SPL1WI9SmBd1q001oRn1nmI1mwtSGq9ZG0d 13/01mst149B14YREAA7 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C74E44.DD3AF640-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 11 20:32:12 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGQ0S-0004kd-46; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 20:29:24 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGQ0Q-0004kS-2S for sip@ietf.org; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 20:29:22 -0500 Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.184.238]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGQ0O-0008TT-T6 for sip@ietf.org; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 20:29:22 -0500 Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id 55so1614644wri for ; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 17:29:20 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=Ebic8kt6Uy/hHpxf98qL+ppWeq+sTgXRzcr42GopQGHGTDYeJDGEfyvL2vL0o+Cer9TFOYxETdHw/onUEEB2NgkdvvFbnb0w9A5k6nWzjd6/vA/BFZ8faJthy47wEIMay7HdA+U9o55OLjF9CGyVH/gg8Y47mzOEfJdygLIprks= Received: by 10.114.126.1 with SMTP id y1mr6584003wac.1171243760122; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 17:29:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.114.38.19 with HTTP; Sun, 11 Feb 2007 17:29:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1b12d0090702111729j5f5bc50ate73dd4d595112cc8@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 19:29:20 -0600 From: "Sheetal Bhogale" To: sip@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Subject: [Sip] OPTIONS, PUBLISH X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0436365588==" Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org --===============0436365588== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_38694_18605098.1171243760013" ------=_Part_38694_18605098.1171243760013 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hello All, Can someone send me OPTIONS, PUBLISH call flow or redirect me to the links where I can find those. Thanks, Sheetal ------=_Part_38694_18605098.1171243760013 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Hello All,
Can someone send me OPTIONS, PUBLISH call flow or redirect me to the links where I can find those.

Thanks,
Sheetal
------=_Part_38694_18605098.1171243760013-- --===============0436365588== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --===============0436365588==-- From jimmiesheffie@ccmanetwork.com Mon Feb 12 06:31:07 2007 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGZOl-0007wD-FN for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 06:31:07 -0500 Received: from [124.216.252.137] (helo=computer) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGZOj-00052D-JB for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 06:31:07 -0500 To: "holly del" Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 20:27:27 +0900 From: "dasya alick" Sender: "dasya alick" Subject: Windows Vista Business ready to download MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <3a7d01c74e98$c6682ce0$89fcd87c@computer> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_3329_01C74EE4.0BBB4200" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 Priority: normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1807 X-Spam-Score: 4.6 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 73734d43604d52d23b3eba644a169745 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_3329_01C74EE4.0BBB4200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The most comprehensive edition of Windows Vista, Vista Business Upgrade (DVD-ROM) is the first operating system that combines all of the advanced infrastructure features of a business-focused operating system, all of the management and efficiency features of a mobility-focused operating system, and all of the digital entertainment features of a consumer-focused operating system. For the person who wants one operating system that is great for working from home, working on the road, and for entertainment, Vista Business is a no-compromise operating system that lets you have it all. Windows Vista Business contains a number of new features, the most notable of which are: Windows Vista Business combines all the features of a business-focused operating system, all the efficiency features of a mobility-focused operating system, and all of the digital entertainment features of a consumer-focused operating system; Remotely connect to business networks; Windows BitLocker Drive Encryptiption provides improve levels of protection against theft for your important business data whether you are at home, on the road, or in the office; Delivers all of the entertainment features available in Vista Home Premium; includes everything you need to enjoy the latest in digital photography, music, movies, analog TV, or even HDTV; Upgrade from your current edition of Microsoft Windows XP or Windows 2000 (including Windows XP Professional, Windows XP Home, Windows XP Media Center, Windows XP Tablet PC, Windows XP Professional x64, Windows 2000) Windows Vista Business Upgrade (DVD-ROM) Retail Price $299.00 Our Price $79.95 You save $219.05 http://chinchampion.org Please note, that there will be more special offers available for our constant customers. Every effort has been made to ensure the accuracy of all information contained herein. DS Team makes no warranty expressed or implied with respect to accuracy of the information, including price, product editorials or product specifications. Product and manufacturer names are used only for the purpose of identification. We appreciate your cooperation with us and we'll be glad to see you as our clients in the future. ------=_NextPart_000_3329_01C74EE4.0BBB4200 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
The most comprehensive edition of Windows Vista, Vista Business Upgrade (DVD-ROM) is the first operating system that combines all of the advanced infrastructure features of a business-focused operating system, all of the management and efficiency features of a mobility-focused operating system, and all of the digital entertainment features of a consumer-focused operating system. For the person who wants one operating system that is great for working from home, working on the road, and for entertainment, Vista Business is a no-compromise operating system that lets you have it all. Windows Vista Business contains a number of new features, the most notable of which are: Windows Vista Business combines all the features of a business-focused operating system, all the efficiency features of a mobility-focused operating system, and all of the digital entertainment features of a consumer-focused operating system; Remotely connect to business networks; Windows BitLocker Drive Encryptiption provides improve levels of protection against theft for your important business data whether you are at home, on the road, or in the office; Delivers all of the entertainment features available in Vista Home Premium; includes everything you need to enjoy the latest in digital photography, music, movies, analog TV, or even HDTV; Upgrade from your current edition of Microsoft Windows XP or Windows 2000 (including Windows XP Professional, Windows XP Home, Windows XP Media Center, Windows XP Tablet PC, Windows XP Professional x64, Windows 2000)
Windows Vista Business Upgrade (DVD-ROM)
Retail Price $299.00
Our Price $79.95
You save $219.05
http://chinchampion.org
Please note, that there will be more special offers available for our constant customers. Every effort has been made to ensure the accuracy of all information contained herein. DS Team makes no warranty expressed or implied with respect to accuracy of the information, including price, product editorials or product specifications. Product and manufacturer names are used only for the purpose of identification. We appreciate your cooperation with us and we'll be glad to see you as our clients in the future.
------=_NextPart_000_3329_01C74EE4.0BBB4200-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 12 08:05:06 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGapc-0006TN-U5; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 08:02:56 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGapa-0006TC-Ts for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 08:02:54 -0500 Received: from smtp.nokia.com ([131.228.20.172] helo=mgw-ext13.nokia.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGapZ-0006eB-Co for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 08:02:54 -0500 Received: from esebh108.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh108.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.145]) by mgw-ext13.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.5/Switch-3.2.5) with ESMTP id l1CCxxKk028683; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 15:00:17 +0200 Received: from esebh104.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.143.34]) by esebh108.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 12 Feb 2007 15:02:01 +0200 Received: from esebe103.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.219]) by esebh104.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 12 Feb 2007 15:02:01 +0200 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [Sip] Construction of Path URI, Service-Route and Record-Route in draft-rosenberg-sip-outbound-discovery-mid-dialog-00 Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 15:02:27 +0200 Message-ID: <8B1D53AEF7B03449A6D3771B3B7F850F03565527@esebe103.NOE.Nokia.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Sip] Construction of Path URI, Service-Route and Record-Route in draft-rosenberg-sip-outbound-discovery-mid-dialog-00 Thread-Index: AcdOpgu9Pb6tCWijRRS38xNeX0uVQg== From: To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Feb 2007 13:02:01.0423 (UTC) FILETIME=[FC6275F0:01C74EA5] X-Nokia-AV: Clean X-Spam-Score: 1.3 (+) X-Scan-Signature: b132cb3ed2d4be2017585bf6859e1ede Cc: sip@ietf.org X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Hi Jonathan, I have been studying draft-rosenberg-sip-outbound-discovery-mid-dialog-00 and find that the way it suggests to construct and use the Path URI is not totally consistent within the spec. >From the example in Chapter 15, the reader can get an impression that the Path URI would be identical for all the outbound proxies within the proxy set assigned to the user: Finally, it extracts the URI from the Alternative-Proxies header field, which points to proxy 3. It runs through an identical registration procedure with proxy 3. This procedure will leave the UA with two outbound proxies, both of which have exactly the same URI. Its connection table will look like: TLS connection to 2: sip:outbound.example.com =20 sip:proxy2+proxy3+x+instanceID+1@outbound.example.com;keepalive=3Dstun TCP connection to 3: =20 sip:proxy2+proxy3+x+instanceID+1@outbound.example.com;maddr=3D192.0.2.1 =20 sip:proxy2+proxy3+x+instanceID+1@outbound.example.com;keepalive=3Dstun In this example the URI for proxy 2 and 3 seem to be identical and the user part of it would have the following properties: - It encodes all the proxies in the outbound proxy set. Furthermore those proxies are there in the same order. - However the reg-id seems to be incorrectly '1' for both the registrations. But reading the normative text it would seem that the user part of the Path URI would be different for each of the outbound proxies: - When encoding the user part the proxy would not include itself, it would only include the other proxies of the proxy set. - The reg-id would be different for each proxy. It seems to me that there would actually be two options how to use construct the URIs for Path, Service-Route and Record-Route=20 headers in this draft: 1. To have each proxy to construct a different Path URI so that the user part of the Path URI would be specific to one single flow between the UA and the outbound proxy. The differentiation would be done by including the reg-id to the encoding of the=20 user part (and possibly proxy not including itself to the proxy set). 2. To have each proxy within the proxy set construct an identical Path URI so that the Path URI would be common to all flows maintained by the UA towards the proxy set. This would mean not using the reg-id when encoding the user part of the URI and using the whole proxy set for the encoding. Using the reflected Path URI within both the Service-Route and Alternative-Proxies headers, it would seem to me that the option 2 would be the correct way out of those. For the option 1 (different Path URI for each proxy) there seem to=20 be the following issues: - The Service-Route header within the 200 OK response of REGISTER would be different for each proxy. I belive there should be only one single URI to be used within each Service-Route header, irrespective of the proxy used. - The normative text for Alternative-Proxies seem to assume that all the alternative proxies would have same URI but different maddr parameter to identify the specific proxy. This same URI should be the one single common Path URI for the proxy set. - If the Path URI is not common to the proxy set but each flow maintained by the UA would have a different Path URI, then why would the Record-Route need to have an additional=20 dialog-specific URI parameter ? I assumed this parameter was needed to identify a single specific flow amongst the set of=20 flows when all flows within the set would have the common Path=20 URI. But if the Path URI already maps to a single flow then what would be the purpose of the dialog-specific URI parameter ? - Even if suggesting the usage of reg-id within the user part of the Path URI, the draft does not suggest any use for this=20 piece of information to any purpose.=20 - The proxies would need complicated procedures in mid-dialog failover case to find the correct flow to the same user and UA. When having a common Path URI for all the flows and proxies, finding the correct flow would become trivial even for the mid-dialog failover case. The new proxy would just have to ignore the dialog-specific URI parameter. Having the Path URI to be identical for all flows maintained by the UA instance, the "stickiness" properties of the Record-Routed URI would finally be as follows: - URI + dialog-specific parameter: map to one single flow and proxy - URI (user and host parts included): map to all flows from the UA - host part of the URI: map to the ob proxy farm of the domain Regards, Erkki ____________________________________ Erkki Koivusalo Nokia Mobile Software tel:+358 40 7571197 mailto:erkki.koivusalo@nokia.com ____________________________________=20 _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 12 08:43:15 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGbS9-0005Hv-IT; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 08:42:45 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGbS8-0005HZ-71; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 08:42:44 -0500 Received: from mailgw3.ericsson.se ([193.180.251.60]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGbRx-0006tC-I5; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 08:42:42 -0500 Received: from mailgw3.ericsson.se (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw3.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id E60212041F; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 14:42:28 +0100 (CET) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3c-b17cbbb0000007de-f9-45d06ec4aae6 Received: from esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se (unknown [153.88.254.123]) by mailgw3.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id CDBC4203CB; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 14:42:28 +0100 (CET) Received: from esealmw113.eemea.ericsson.se ([153.88.200.4]) by esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 12 Feb 2007 14:42:28 +0100 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Sip] New draft on early media Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 14:42:28 +0100 Message-ID: <7374777208BDC7449D5620EF9423256701FF1078@esealmw113.eemea.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <45CB7E2F.1070706@bbn.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Sip] New draft on early media Thread-Index: AcdLujpNMPZNpklsRX687LKDDU19oQC8L/tQ From: "Christer Holmberg \(JO/LMF\)" To: "Richard Barnes" , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Feb 2007 13:42:28.0408 (UTC) FILETIME=[A2FAFB80:01C74EAB] X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f4c2cf0bccc868e4cc88dace71fb3f44 Cc: X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Hi, I haven't had time to read the document yet, but I am not sure I agree with the statement saying that the biggest problem is media arriving before the SDP answer. In some environments such media will not even reach the terminal, due to gating etc. Many implementations DO send an SDP answer (or, at least an unreliable "preview" of the SDP answer) before (or at the same time as) early media is sent. And, in the cases where implementations do NOT send an SDP answer before they start sending early media - what behavior would you be able to standardize? Regards, Christer=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Barnes [mailto:rbarnes@bbn.com]=20 > Sent: 8. helmikuuta 2007 21:47 > To: sip@ietf.org; sipping@ietf.org > Subject: [Sip] New draft on early media >=20 > After the big discussions on SIPPING last summer about how to=20 > fix early media, and the reaction at the last couple of IETFs=20 > to Brian Stucker's draft on how to cope with it, I've put=20 > together a draft to try to consolidate all of the discussions=20 > and move toward a solution. >=20 > draft-barnes-sip-em-ps-req-sol includes three important parts: >=20 > 1. Problem statement: Although there's lots of definitions of=20 > "early media" in existing documents, I think there's broad=20 > agreement that the stuff that causes problems is media that=20 > arrives before an SDP offer/answer exchange has completed. =20 > The problem is therefore to enable the SDP exchange(s) in the=20 > INVITE transaction to complete more quickly, and make it more=20 > difficult (if not impossible) to send media before it has=20 > completed. We are explicitly NOT trying to prevent the=20 > sending of media before a 200/OK or other closing of an=20 > INVITE transaction. >=20 > 2. Requirements: Here, we try to create a consolidated list=20 > of requirements for an early media fix. >=20 > 3. Analysis of Solutions: Lots of folks have put forward=20 > proposals to fix the early media problem. This section tries=20 > to enumerate most of them and evaluate them against the=20 > requirements in section 2. >=20 > It hasn't shown up yet on the I-D tracker, so I've attached a copy. >=20 > --Richard >=20 _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From dyooopevdv@blankness.com Mon Feb 12 09:58:15 2007 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGcdD-0004uW-6e for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 09:58:15 -0500 Received: from [89.25.96.13] (helo=[89.25.96.13]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGcdB-0006hs-QW for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 09:58:15 -0500 From: "Enjoy free" To: sip-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Rocket Stock Report Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 16:58:06 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C74EC6.F7830B00" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: AcdOxveDeSuWOKWkS5mRzRJBrCqDRg== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Message-Id: <712F1B646C27546.084F9455EA@blankness.com> X-Spam-Score: 1.3 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C74EC6.F7830B00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C74EC6.F7830B00-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 12 10:09:29 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGcmp-0003Cv-Hh; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:08:11 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGcmn-0003BB-5w; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:08:09 -0500 Received: from mx12.bbn.com ([128.33.0.81]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGcmk-00010V-S5; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:08:09 -0500 Received: from po2.bbn.com ([128.33.0.56]) by mx12.bbn.com with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1HGcmb-0006ir-5J; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:07:57 -0500 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (col-dhcp33-244-152.bbn.com [128.33.244.152]) by po2.bbn.com (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id l1CF7uw15227; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:07:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <45D082D1.3000203@bbn.com> Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:08:01 -0500 From: Richard Barnes User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Christer Holmberg (JO/LMF)" Subject: Re: [Sip] New draft on early media References: <7374777208BDC7449D5620EF9423256701FF1078@esealmw113.eemea.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <7374777208BDC7449D5620EF9423256701FF1078@esealmw113.eemea.ericsson.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 10d3e4e3c32e363f129e380e644649be Cc: sip@ietf.org, sipping@ietf.org X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Christer, Thanks for your comments. Responses inline. Cheers, --Richard > I haven't had time to read the document yet, but I am not sure I agree > with the statement saying that the biggest problem is media arriving > before the SDP answer. In some environments such media will not even > reach the terminal, due to gating etc. Perhaps a better term would be "media sent before an SDP answer has been received". As you point out, sending media before an SDP offer/answer exchange has completed poses the risk that that media will not arrive. To put it in the terms used in the document, media clipping is a problem caused by early (pre-SDP-answer) media, and thus one which this document seeks to solve. > Many implementations DO send an SDP answer (or, at least an unreliable > "preview" of the SDP answer) before (or at the same time as) early media > is sent. This is the behavior we would like to standardize -- that an SDP answer is *always* sent before media of any type. What we're trying to do with this document is describe the requirements for how that answer is sent, and consolidate the many ways people have proposed to send it. > And, in the cases where implementations do NOT send an SDP answer before > they start sending early media - what behavior would you be able to > standardize? We would prefer that standards not allow this behavior -- that seems like the right thing to me. What's a little trickier is that you'd like to not have the answerer sending media before the answer has *arrived*. When the answer is carried in a reliable message, you could just forbid sending media before receipt has been confirmed. When the transport is unreliable, the situation is a little less clear, but I think there's still possibilities for standardization, e.g., by forbidding answerers to send media until they've received media. This is discussed in more length in the document. > > Regards, > > Christer > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Richard Barnes [mailto:rbarnes@bbn.com] >> Sent: 8. helmikuuta 2007 21:47 >> To: sip@ietf.org; sipping@ietf.org >> Subject: [Sip] New draft on early media >> >> After the big discussions on SIPPING last summer about how to >> fix early media, and the reaction at the last couple of IETFs >> to Brian Stucker's draft on how to cope with it, I've put >> together a draft to try to consolidate all of the discussions >> and move toward a solution. >> >> draft-barnes-sip-em-ps-req-sol includes three important parts: >> >> 1. Problem statement: Although there's lots of definitions of >> "early media" in existing documents, I think there's broad >> agreement that the stuff that causes problems is media that >> arrives before an SDP offer/answer exchange has completed. >> The problem is therefore to enable the SDP exchange(s) in the >> INVITE transaction to complete more quickly, and make it more >> difficult (if not impossible) to send media before it has >> completed. We are explicitly NOT trying to prevent the >> sending of media before a 200/OK or other closing of an >> INVITE transaction. >> >> 2. Requirements: Here, we try to create a consolidated list >> of requirements for an early media fix. >> >> 3. Analysis of Solutions: Lots of folks have put forward >> proposals to fix the early media problem. This section tries >> to enumerate most of them and evaluate them against the >> requirements in section 2. >> >> It hasn't shown up yet on the I-D tracker, so I've attached a copy. >> >> --Richard >> > > _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 12 10:40:20 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGdHW-0002zo-4j; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:39:54 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGdHV-0002zW-CW for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:39:53 -0500 Received: from smtp.iptel.org ([213.192.59.67] helo=mail.iptel.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGdHU-0000ht-2T for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:39:53 -0500 Received: from uk1lt10071.iptel.org (shell.iptel.org [213.192.59.74]) by mail.iptel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D88A20A300 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 16:39:27 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <7.0.1.0.0.20070212163759.05278128@iptel.org> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 16:39:20 +0100 To: sip@ietf.org From: Jiri Kuthan Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Subject: [Sip] off-topic: SER User/Developer Meeting X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org For those of you attending the upcoming IETF meeting in PRague, and following the SER Proxy server, this is an invitation to join user/developer group meeting. http://www.iptel.org/ietf_meeting -jiri -- Jiri Kuthan http://iptel.org/~jiri/ _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 12 11:02:45 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGdd4-0007DY-JZ; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 11:02:10 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGdd1-0007CR-Vs; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 11:02:08 -0500 Received: from dsl001-129-069.dfw1.dsl.speakeasy.net ([72.1.129.69] helo=vicuna.estacado.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGdcx-0005YI-La; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 11:02:07 -0500 Received: from [172.17.1.65] ([172.17.1.65]) (authenticated bits=0) by vicuna.estacado.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l1CG1nBQ080777 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:01:50 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from rjsparks@estacado.net) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Robert Sparks Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:01:45 -0600 To: sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu, SIP LIST , simple@ietf.org, sipping LIST X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aefe408d50e9c7c47615841cb314bed Cc: Subject: [Sip] Registration for SIPit 20 is open X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org SIPit 20 will be hosted by Alcatel-Lucent in Antwerp, Belgium April 16-20,2007. Registration is now open - see http://www.sipit.net for more information. RjS _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From doxinygaa@harvestersonline.com Mon Feb 12 11:52:23 2007 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGePf-0003DG-BQ; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 11:52:23 -0500 Received: from [61.178.150.132] (helo=harvestersonline.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGePb-000817-CW; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 11:52:23 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Marg Ray" To: "Mariel Kelley" Cc: "Camellia Berry" , "Elton" , "Lacie" , "Mana Reyes" , "Janella" , "Bee" , "Venetta Boyd" , "Lemuel" , "Monique Smith" , "Treasa Hawkins" Subject: Lets go Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 00:33:55 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_587_ECAD_15DCC420.269646FA" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9178bae9f85419fdc08e9f2c86e345d0 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_587_ECAD_15DCC420.269646FA Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_28E_FE0C_F6F816DF.8EF87530" ------=_NextPart_28E_FE0C_F6F816DF.8EF87530 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "What a birth confounded time this fancy first brought act felt takes. 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pp+Oeuqqr856666/Dnvsss9Oe+2234577rrvzvtcIQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_587_ECAD_15DCC420.269646FA-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 12 15:25:55 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGhj8-0002TS-Sr; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 15:24:42 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGhj6-0002T7-TY; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 15:24:40 -0500 Received: from zcars04f.nortel.com ([47.129.242.57]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGhj4-0003K3-HK; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 15:24:40 -0500 Received: from zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com (zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com [47.103.123.71]) by zcars04f.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id l1CKOR518035; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 15:24:27 -0500 (EST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Sipping] Re: [Sip] New draft on early media Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 14:24:05 -0600 Message-ID: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F21D58F@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <45D082D1.3000203@bbn.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Sipping] Re: [Sip] New draft on early media Thread-Index: AcdOuBzwzIh5r0ljTA6EYziSrjehxgAKoryw From: "Francois Audet" To: "Richard Barnes" , "Christer Holmberg \(JO/LMF\)" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 87a3f533bb300b99e2a18357f3c1563d Cc: sip@ietf.org, sipping@ietf.org X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Hi Richard, Forcing media cut-through to occur only after an Answer has been received does solve SOME of the early media problems. As others have mentioned, there are environments that operate like this already. I also know many products that do not cut-through media before the answer is received. But there are other problems related with early media. Brian Stucker's draft listed a bunch of them.=20 Forking for example comes to mind: even if we did mandate cut-through after answer, we would still have problems related with forking (i.e., how to pick the stream that needs to be played, and how to correlate the stream with the=20 signaling). How to deal with SRTP key exchange in that scenario is an even=20 bigger problem.=20 Clipping is a possible side-effect of your proposal. We'd need some mechanism to=20 mitigate it, in particular for auto-answer scenarios. > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Barnes [mailto:rbarnes@bbn.com]=20 > Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 07:08 > To: Christer Holmberg (JO/LMF) > Cc: sip@ietf.org; sipping@ietf.org > Subject: [Sipping] Re: [Sip] New draft on early media >=20 > Christer, >=20 > Thanks for your comments. Responses inline. >=20 > Cheers, > --Richard >=20 > > I haven't had time to read the document yet, but I am not=20 > sure I agree=20 > > with the statement saying that the biggest problem is media=20 > arriving=20 > > before the SDP answer. In some environments such media will=20 > not even=20 > > reach the terminal, due to gating etc. >=20 > Perhaps a better term would be "media sent before an SDP=20 > answer has been received". As you point out, sending media=20 > before an SDP offer/answer exchange has completed poses the=20 > risk that that media will not arrive.=20 > To put it in the terms used in the document, media clipping=20 > is a problem caused by early (pre-SDP-answer) media, and thus=20 > one which this document seeks to solve. >=20 > > Many implementations DO send an SDP answer (or, at least an=20 > unreliable=20 > > "preview" of the SDP answer) before (or at the same time as) early=20 > > media is sent. >=20 > This is the behavior we would like to standardize -- that an=20 > SDP answer is *always* sent before media of any type. What=20 > we're trying to do with this document is describe the=20 > requirements for how that answer is sent, and consolidate the=20 > many ways people have proposed to send it. >=20 > > And, in the cases where implementations do NOT send an SDP answer=20 > > before they start sending early media - what behavior would you be=20 > > able to standardize? >=20 > We would prefer that standards not allow this behavior --=20 > that seems like the right thing to me. What's a little=20 > trickier is that you'd like to not have the answerer sending=20 > media before the answer has *arrived*.=20 > When the answer is carried in a reliable message, you could=20 > just forbid sending media before receipt has been confirmed. =20 > When the transport is unreliable, the situation is a little=20 > less clear, but I think there's still possibilities for=20 > standardization, e.g., by forbidding answerers to send media=20 > until they've received media. This is discussed in more=20 > length in the document. >=20 > >=20 > > Regards, > >=20 > > Christer > >=20 > >=20 > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Richard Barnes [mailto:rbarnes@bbn.com] > >> Sent: 8. helmikuuta 2007 21:47 > >> To: sip@ietf.org; sipping@ietf.org > >> Subject: [Sip] New draft on early media > >> > >> After the big discussions on SIPPING last summer about how to fix=20 > >> early media, and the reaction at the last couple of IETFs to Brian=20 > >> Stucker's draft on how to cope with it, I've put together=20 > a draft to=20 > >> try to consolidate all of the discussions and move toward=20 > a solution. > >> > >> draft-barnes-sip-em-ps-req-sol includes three important parts: > >> > >> 1. Problem statement: Although there's lots of definitions=20 > of "early=20 > >> media" in existing documents, I think there's broad agreement that=20 > >> the stuff that causes problems is media that arrives before an SDP=20 > >> offer/answer exchange has completed. > >> The problem is therefore to enable the SDP exchange(s) in=20 > the INVITE=20 > >> transaction to complete more quickly, and make it more=20 > difficult (if=20 > >> not impossible) to send media before it has completed. We are=20 > >> explicitly NOT trying to prevent the sending of media=20 > before a 200/OK=20 > >> or other closing of an INVITE transaction. > >> > >> 2. Requirements: Here, we try to create a consolidated list of=20 > >> requirements for an early media fix. > >> > >> 3. Analysis of Solutions: Lots of folks have put forward=20 > proposals to=20 > >> fix the early media problem. This section tries to=20 > enumerate most of=20 > >> them and evaluate them against the requirements in section 2. > >> > >> It hasn't shown up yet on the I-D tracker, so I've attached a copy. > >> > >> --Richard > >> > >=20 > >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Sipping mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sipping > This list is for NEW development of the application of SIP=20 > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current=20 > sip Use sip@ietf.org for new developments of core SIP >=20 _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 12 15:58:30 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGiEx-0003Ei-VK; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 15:57:35 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGiEw-0003DN-Iy for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 15:57:34 -0500 Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net ([216.148.227.153]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGiEv-0001xY-Be for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 15:57:34 -0500 Received: from dragon.ariadne.com (dworley.hsd1.ma.comcast.net[24.34.79.42]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with ESMTP id <20070212205732m1300ssr6je>; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 20:57:32 +0000 Received: from dragon.ariadne.com (dragon.ariadne.com [127.0.0.1]) by dragon.ariadne.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id l1CKvVAM011794 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 15:57:31 -0500 Received: (from worley@localhost) by dragon.ariadne.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id l1CKvVmb011790; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 15:57:31 -0500 Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 15:57:31 -0500 Message-Id: <200702122057.l1CKvVmb011790@dragon.ariadne.com> To: sip@ietf.org From: Dale.Worley@comcast.net In-reply-to: <1b12d0090702111729j5f5bc50ate73dd4d595112cc8@mail.gmail.com> (sheetal.bhogale@gmail.com) Subject: Re: [Sip] OPTIONS, PUBLISH References: <1b12d0090702111729j5f5bc50ate73dd4d595112cc8@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.4 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org From: "Sheetal Bhogale" Can someone send me OPTIONS, PUBLISH call flow or redirect me to the links where I can find those. OPTIONS is discussed fairly thoroughly in section 11 of RFC 3261. PUBLISH is described in RFC 3903. Dale _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From greelyseqes@corpmx.savicom.net Mon Feb 12 22:21:09 2007 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGoE9-00019V-FQ for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 22:21:09 -0500 Received: from [59.52.35.35] (helo=corpmx.savicom.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGoE5-0004WO-Bx for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 22:21:09 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Mariko" To: "Brian" Subject: Isn't it time Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 16:07:05 -1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_8BB_618F_FD4F3BCF.72183F28" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V9.0.2416 X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 06d29b9b22258f4f07fe89b4d4a05a86 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_8BB_618F_FD4F3BCF.72183F28 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_B68_EE18_B8111FBC.C2E91751" ------=_NextPart_B68_EE18_B8111FBC.C2E91751 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Why, you see, organization he has a good library thought page understand= ing with th thick tickle "Well, this boat flap route is impossible." "Of= silk reflect what meat rubbery burden is she?"smash "I?--I milk live the= coach happiest crooked life possible, the real l "Let moon mad us see," said frightened he, way "I have swum above an hour= , "Of house under hunger, skip sir, of hunger," said hastily Caderousse. = "I a knot worm copper The abb, with a shaking like hand, seized a glas= s of w A shudder passed value over angry him. quick He sought real to tread wate= memory "And fall how does he stem important behave towards travellers?""R= evenge, program drive nation for army instance!" observed Franz."About a = hundred poison tons; spin but she proven is built sparkle to stand atremb= le The run spent unknown fixed on garden the young man one of those lo "Well," hospital beg said he, "I will swim on until tense said I am worn = o "The more so, daughter sir, as it begin wing was film men's and not= God's d "Tell me snow find of those sky sane men," said the abb, "and = rememb   servant peel mine Suddenly the sky seemed to him to hearing become still = dar "Alas! robust produce his plan is bath very simple. roughly It depends on= thepen "Because," unlock shrink replied Franz, "you seem to design me li= ke a mtwist death baby win "Where was she built?""Ah," responded cut Sinb= ad, cat laughing rung book with his singular Before forgo him rose appear a abecedarian grotesque hunt mass of rocks, = that re wine fall "Two oven men copy jealous of him, sir; one from love,= and t "How reading was this unfasten unpack jealousy choke manifested? = Speak on." Dants had not been deceived--he narrow plate had end slew reached the f = "I taken know dream stain not; but my dive own opinion is she is a Genoe= s belief permit "Well, trodden Albert," look inquired Franz of his companio= n, "respect quick "And will that be the first time frightened speak you e= ver took thazoom "And how hour did outrageous a current leader of smuggle= rs," continued Fraprison instrument "Yes; insurance it will. I grip must = seem to you by no means curi cytherean leather An thick overhanging rock snatch offered him a temporar= y shelte "They open clear page stridden denounced Edmond as a Bonapar= tist agent." "Which of stupid the two denounced him? forbidden Which jo= g tour was the rea porter quietly liquid "Quite so," said Albert, "if shrunk the way be pict= uresqu"And do geoponic you rose propose front to make up this journey ver= y shor"I greet did not say that the busy owner leg was buzz a smuggler," = repcarriage "I do not commercial know; it awoke tick depends on circumsta= nces which As disgusted he light rose, a flash statement hard of lightning, that see= med to r"Both, sir; station one weary brief. with a letter, bred and the = other put i safe "And reign concerned where was prickly this letter writ= ten?" sense The men he sane beheld peace harbor saw him undoubtedly, for their = c develop "Well, then," said Franz, base thrown "let us teach to the Coloss= eum"I should like practise noisy to powerful be there hate at the time yo= u come, a"No; but object cautiously Gaetano seriously multiply did, I tho= ught.""I sugar should swum avail blade myself of your lain offer with ple= asure Dants ran down bear the rocks at the risk structure smell school of being= him "At fiction sigh La porter Rserve, the foregone day before the be= trothal feast square "'Twas sneeze so, rock then--'twas linen so, then,= " murmured the abb   Dants hour stood mute journey and boiling prepare motionless before this = majestendency The mist supper appeared mowed to have cure been supplied s= olely f ------=_NextPart_B68_EE18_B8111FBC.C2E91751 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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"Why, you see, organization he has a good library thought page unders= tanding with th thick tickle "Well, this boat flap route is impossib= le."  "Of silk reflect what meat rubbery burden is she?"smash "= I?--I milk live the coach happiest crooked life possible, the real l = ;  
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A shudder passed value over angry him. quick He sought real to tread wate=   

memory "And fall how does he stem important behave towards travellers= ?""Revenge, program drive nation for army instance!" observed Franz."Abou= t a hundred poison tons; spin but she proven is built sparkle to stand at= remble The run spent unknown fixed on garden the young man one of those l= o   "Well," hospital beg said he, "I will swim on until tense said I am worn = o     "The more so, daughter sir, as it begin wi= ng was film men's and not God's d   "Tell me snow find of = those sky sane men," said the abb, "and rememb    
servant peel mine Suddenly the sky seemed to him to hearing become still = dar     
"Alas! robust produce his plan is bath very simple. roughly It depend= s on thepen "Because," unlock shrink replied Franz, "you seem to design m= e like a mtwist death baby win "Where was she built?""Ah," responded cut = Sinbad, cat laughing rung book with his singular    &= nbsp;    
Before forgo him rose appear a abecedarian grotesque hunt mass of rocks, = that re  wine fall "Two oven men copy jealous of him, sir; one = from love, and t  "How reading was this unfasten unpack jealous= y choke manifested? Speak on."      
Dants had not been deceived--he narrow plate had end slew reached the f&n= bsp;  "I taken know dream stain not; but my dive own opinion is= she is a Genoes    belief permit "Well, trodden Albert," look inquired Franz of his companio= n, "respect quick "And will that be the first time frightened speak you e= ver took thazoom "And how hour did outrageous a current leader of smuggle= rs," continued Fraprison instrument "Yes; insurance it will. I grip must = seem to you by no means curi     cytherean leather An thick overhanging rock snatch offered him a temporar= y shelte     "They open clear page stridden deno= unced Edmond as a Bonapartist agent."   "Which of stupid t= he two denounced him? forbidden Which jog tour was the rea 
porter quietly liquid "Quite so," said Albert, "if shrunk the way be pict= uresqu"And do geoponic you rose propose front to make up this journey ver= y shor"I greet did not say that the busy owner leg was buzz a smuggler," = repcarriage "I do not commercial know; it awoke tick depends on circumsta= nces which  
As disgusted he light rose, a flash statement hard of lightning, that see= med to r"Both, sir; station one weary brief. with a letter, bred and the = other put i  safe "And reign concerned where was prickly this l= etter written?"     sense The men he sane beheld peace harbor saw him undoubtedly, for their = c     
develop "Well, then," said Franz, base thrown "let us teach to the Co= losseum"I should like practise noisy to powerful be there hate at the tim= e you come, a"No; but object cautiously Gaetano seriously multiply did, I= thought.""I sugar should swum avail blade myself of your lain offer with= pleasure     Dants ran down bear the rocks at the risk structure smell school of being= him    "At fiction sigh La porter Rserve, the forego= ne day before the betrothal feast   square "'Twas sneeze s= o, rock then--'twas linen so, then," murmured the abb   &n= bsp;      
Dants hour stood mute journey and boiling prepare motionless before this = majestendency The mist supper appeared mowed to have cure been supplied s= olely f          
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From sip-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 13 06:21:43 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGviJ-0003KZ-Sx; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 06:20:47 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGviH-0003KP-SC for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 06:20:46 -0500 Received: from mailgate.siemenscomms.co.uk ([195.171.110.225] helo=bemg01.siemenscomms.co.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGviC-0000IC-BM for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 06:20:45 -0500 Received: from ntht207e.uksgcs.siemenscomms.co.uk ([137.223.247.82]) by siemenscomms.co.uk (PMDF V6.0-24 #40642) with ESMTP id <0JDE00HBQFEQ09@siemenscomms.co.uk> for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 11:18:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: by ntht207e.uksgcs.siemenscomms.co.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 11:18:26 +0000 Content-return: allowed Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 11:18:26 +0000 From: "Elwell, John" Subject: RE: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips-01.txt To: Francois Audet , sip@ietf.org Message-id: <50B1CBA96870A34799A506B2313F26670B05FCEB@ntht201e.siemenscomms.co.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 37af5f8fbf6f013c5b771388e24b09e7 Cc: X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Would there be any benefit in mentioning why it is specified that (with the exception of the last hop) a SIPS request must be forwarded over TLS rather than IPSEC? I can't find anything in RFC 3261. I don't have enough expertise in this area to propose particular words, but IPSEC seems to be getting deployed quite a lot (e.g., with IMS) and an IETF opinion on its appropriateness for transporting SIPS requests might be useful. John > -----Original Message----- > From: Francois Audet [mailto:audet@nortel.com] > Sent: 09 February 2007 22:43 > To: sip@ietf.org > Subject: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips-01.txt > > I want to draw attention to the up-issue of the sips draft. > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-sips-01.txt > > Here is a summary of the main changes changes: > > - More clarification on using TLS with SIP instead of SIPS. > Added a call > flow 9.3 to illustrate it. > > - In -00, if an endpoint registed with a SIP Contact or a > SIPS Contact, > the proxy > would forward incoming request to that UAS using the scheme of the > contact > as opposed to preserve the scheme used in the request. In > other words, > it > "upgraded" or "downgraded" the scheme based on what was used in > Registration in > the Contact. That introduced a whole bunch of issues with mid-dialog > requests. For > example, if an Endpoint registered with a SIPS contact, an incoming > request > sent using a SIP Request-URI would be upgraded to SIPS by the > terminating proxy. > Upon accepting the request, the UAS would then have to use a SIPS > contact (as per > RFC 3261) which would most likely not be understood by the > other side, and would create problem with sending > mid-dialog requests > such > as ACK. In -01, the proxy is expected to leave the > Request-URI scheme > intact when > delivering the request. This will fix the problem described above. > Also, it > correctly indicates to the UAS that the request was NOT sent using > SIPS on every > hop. Please review carefully this change, and the > implications on the > call flows in section 9 to ensure that it is correct. This change > fixes > lots of problems with -00. > > - When a request is rejected, a 403 Forbidden is used instead of 416 > "Unrecognized > URI scheme". The rationale is that RFC 3261 says that when you get a > 416, you > should retry with SIP URI scheme which would then loop. If anybody > believes a > different error response should be used, please speak up. > > - I cleaned up the description of loose routing implications of sips. > The -00 draft > was saying that SIPS meant TLS for loose routes, but the > -01 explains > that it really > means, well, SIPS. > > - Corrected a bunch of mistakes in the call flows. > > The To-be-done section contains a bunch of open issues. > > - One open issue regards how to deal with SIP URIs in REFER and 3rd > party call > control. I'm not convinced that writing very detailed > procedures makes > much sense > as it could get overly complicated. Somehow, I think we need some > high-level > statement about not allowing "derived connections" (such as one > obtained when > REFER or 3rd-party call control) to effectively downgrade > from SIPS to > SIP. > Anyboy has any toughts on the issue? > > - The other open issue is about GRUU. How should the UAC react if the > returned > GRUU is SIP but the To was SIPS? How should the UAC react if the > returned > GRUU is SIPS but the To was SIP? Any ideas? (Maybe we can be a bit > more > prescriptive here). > > > A detailed diff can be found at: > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=http://t > ools.ietf. > org/id/draft-ietf-sip-sips-00.txt&url2=http://tools.ietf.org/i > d/draft-ie > tf-sip-sips-01.txt > > > _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip > _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 13 12:47:53 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HH1iq-0000S4-TE; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 12:45:44 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HH1ip-0000Rz-TH for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 12:45:43 -0500 Received: from zcars04f.nortel.com ([47.129.242.57]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HH1io-0004KM-G6 for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 12:45:43 -0500 Received: from zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com (zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com [47.103.123.71]) by zcars04f.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id l1DHjdE24574; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 12:45:40 -0500 (EST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips-01.txt Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 11:45:23 -0600 Message-ID: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F28185E@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <50B1CBA96870A34799A506B2313F26670B05FCEB@ntht201e.siemenscomms.co.uk> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips-01.txt Thread-Index: AcdPYPnGmq6D1YfORMeBWvy+uZz4YQANPPrA From: "Francois Audet" To: "Elwell, John" , X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 29dc808194f5fb921c09d0040806d6eb Cc: X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Hi John, I think the short answer is that SIPS by definition means TLS. Just like HTTPS by=20 definition means TLS. It's not a judgment of the value of TLS versus IPsec. It's just the definition of the term. So if one wants to use IPsec, there is no SIPS to worry about (which makes implementation easier on that front).=20 If the group believes that I should mention something about it, I'll gladly=20 add some wording about it in the spec. =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Elwell, John [mailto:john.elwell@siemens.com]=20 > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 03:18 > To: Audet, Francois (SC100:3055); sip@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips-01.txt >=20 > Would there be any benefit in mentioning why it is specified=20 > that (with the exception of the last hop) a SIPS request must=20 > be forwarded over TLS rather than IPSEC? I can't find=20 > anything in RFC 3261. I don't have enough expertise in this=20 > area to propose particular words, but IPSEC seems to be=20 > getting deployed quite a lot (e.g., with IMS) and an IETF=20 > opinion on its appropriateness for transporting SIPS requests=20 > might be useful. >=20 > John > =20 >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Francois Audet [mailto:audet@nortel.com] > > Sent: 09 February 2007 22:43 > > To: sip@ietf.org > > Subject: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips-01.txt > >=20 > > I want to draw attention to the up-issue of the sips draft. > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-sips-01.txt > >=20 > > Here is a summary of the main changes changes: > >=20 > > - More clarification on using TLS with SIP instead of SIPS.=20 > > Added a call > > flow 9.3 to illustrate it. > >=20 > > - In -00, if an endpoint registed with a SIP Contact or a SIPS=20 > > Contact, the proxy > > would forward incoming request to that UAS using the=20 > scheme of the=20 > > contact > > as opposed to preserve the scheme used in the request. In other=20 > > words, it > > "upgraded" or "downgraded" the scheme based on what was used in=20 > > Registration in > > the Contact. That introduced a whole bunch of issues with=20 > mid-dialog=20 > > requests. For > > example, if an Endpoint registered with a SIPS contact,=20 > an incoming=20 > > request > > sent using a SIP Request-URI would be upgraded to SIPS by the=20 > > terminating proxy. > > Upon accepting the request, the UAS would then have to use a SIPS=20 > > contact (as per > > RFC 3261) which would most likely not be understood by the > > other side, and would create problem with sending mid-dialog=20 > > requests such > > as ACK. In -01, the proxy is expected to leave the Request-URI=20 > > scheme intact when > > delivering the request. This will fix the problem described above. > > Also, it > > correctly indicates to the UAS that the request was NOT=20 > sent using=20 > > SIPS on every > > hop. Please review carefully this change, and the implications on=20 > > the > > call flows in section 9 to ensure that it is correct. This change=20 > > fixes > > lots of problems with -00. > >=20 > > - When a request is rejected, a 403 Forbidden is used=20 > instead of 416=20 > > "Unrecognized > > URI scheme". The rationale is that RFC 3261 says that=20 > when you get a=20 > > 416, you > > should retry with SIP URI scheme which would then loop.=20 > If anybody=20 > > believes a > > different error response should be used, please speak up. > >=20 > > - I cleaned up the description of loose routing=20 > implications of sips. > > The -00 draft > > was saying that SIPS meant TLS for loose routes, but the > > -01 explains > > that it really > > means, well, SIPS. > >=20 > > - Corrected a bunch of mistakes in the call flows. > >=20 > > The To-be-done section contains a bunch of open issues. > >=20 > > - One open issue regards how to deal with SIP URIs in REFER and 3rd=20 > > party call > > control. I'm not convinced that writing very detailed procedures=20 > > makes much sense > > as it could get overly complicated. Somehow, I think we need some=20 > > high-level > > statement about not allowing "derived connections" (such as one=20 > > obtained when > > REFER or 3rd-party call control) to effectively downgrade=20 > from SIPS=20 > > to SIP. > > Anyboy has any toughts on the issue? > >=20 > > - The other open issue is about GRUU. How should the UAC=20 > react if the=20 > > returned > > GRUU is SIP but the To was SIPS? How should the UAC react if the > > returned=20 > > GRUU is SIPS but the To was SIP? Any ideas? (Maybe we can=20 > be a bit=20 > > more > > prescriptive here). > >=20 > >=20 > > A detailed diff can be found at: > > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=3Dhttp://t > > ools.ietf. > > org/id/draft-ietf-sip-sips-00.txt&url2=3Dhttp://tools.ietf.org/i > > d/draft-ie > > tf-sip-sips-01.txt > >=20 > >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use=20 > > sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use=20 > > sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip > >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 13 13:03:55 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HH207-0002kL-Ld; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:03:35 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HH206-0002kF-PK for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:03:34 -0500 Received: from mailgate.siemenscomms.co.uk ([195.171.110.225] helo=bemg01.siemenscomms.co.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HH203-0006Dj-7N for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:03:34 -0500 Received: from ntht207e.uksgcs.siemenscomms.co.uk ([137.223.247.82]) by siemenscomms.co.uk (PMDF V6.0-24 #40642) with ESMTP id <0JDE0025TY5KO2@siemenscomms.co.uk> for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 18:03:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: by ntht207e.uksgcs.siemenscomms.co.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 18:03:20 +0000 Content-return: allowed Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 18:03:19 +0000 From: "Elwell, John" Subject: RE: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips-01.txt To: Francois Audet , sip@ietf.org Message-id: <50B1CBA96870A34799A506B2313F26670B0A8A59@ntht201e.siemenscomms.co.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 848ed35f2a4fc0638fa89629cb640f48 Cc: X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Francois, Yes, I know that RFC 3261 states that SIPS means TLS, but do we need to document the reasons for that? John > -----Original Message----- > From: Francois Audet [mailto:audet@nortel.com] > Sent: 13 February 2007 17:45 > To: Elwell, John; sip@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips-01.txt > > Hi John, > > I think the short answer is that SIPS by definition means > TLS. Just like > HTTPS by > definition means TLS. > > It's not a judgment of the value of TLS versus IPsec. It's just the > definition > of the term. > > So if one wants to use IPsec, there is no SIPS to worry about (which > makes > implementation easier on that front). > > If the group believes that I should mention something about it, I'll > gladly > add some wording about it in the spec. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Elwell, John [mailto:john.elwell@siemens.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 03:18 > > To: Audet, Francois (SC100:3055); sip@ietf.org > > Subject: RE: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips-01.txt > > > > Would there be any benefit in mentioning why it is specified > > that (with the exception of the last hop) a SIPS request must > > be forwarded over TLS rather than IPSEC? I can't find > > anything in RFC 3261. I don't have enough expertise in this > > area to propose particular words, but IPSEC seems to be > > getting deployed quite a lot (e.g., with IMS) and an IETF > > opinion on its appropriateness for transporting SIPS requests > > might be useful. > > > > John > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Francois Audet [mailto:audet@nortel.com] > > > Sent: 09 February 2007 22:43 > > > To: sip@ietf.org > > > Subject: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips-01.txt > > > > > > I want to draw attention to the up-issue of the sips draft. > > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-sips-01.txt > > > > > > Here is a summary of the main changes changes: > > > > > > - More clarification on using TLS with SIP instead of SIPS. > > > Added a call > > > flow 9.3 to illustrate it. > > > > > > - In -00, if an endpoint registed with a SIP Contact or a SIPS > > > Contact, the proxy > > > would forward incoming request to that UAS using the > > scheme of the > > > contact > > > as opposed to preserve the scheme used in the request. In other > > > words, it > > > "upgraded" or "downgraded" the scheme based on what was used in > > > Registration in > > > the Contact. That introduced a whole bunch of issues with > > mid-dialog > > > requests. For > > > example, if an Endpoint registered with a SIPS contact, > > an incoming > > > request > > > sent using a SIP Request-URI would be upgraded to SIPS by the > > > terminating proxy. > > > Upon accepting the request, the UAS would then have to > use a SIPS > > > contact (as per > > > RFC 3261) which would most likely not be understood by the > > > other side, and would create problem with sending mid-dialog > > > requests such > > > as ACK. In -01, the proxy is expected to leave the Request-URI > > > scheme intact when > > > delivering the request. This will fix the problem > described above. > > > Also, it > > > correctly indicates to the UAS that the request was NOT > > sent using > > > SIPS on every > > > hop. Please review carefully this change, and the > implications on > > > the > > > call flows in section 9 to ensure that it is correct. > This change > > > fixes > > > lots of problems with -00. > > > > > > - When a request is rejected, a 403 Forbidden is used > > instead of 416 > > > "Unrecognized > > > URI scheme". The rationale is that RFC 3261 says that > > when you get a > > > 416, you > > > should retry with SIP URI scheme which would then loop. > > If anybody > > > believes a > > > different error response should be used, please speak up. > > > > > > - I cleaned up the description of loose routing > > implications of sips. > > > The -00 draft > > > was saying that SIPS meant TLS for loose routes, but the > > > -01 explains > > > that it really > > > means, well, SIPS. > > > > > > - Corrected a bunch of mistakes in the call flows. > > > > > > The To-be-done section contains a bunch of open issues. > > > > > > - One open issue regards how to deal with SIP URIs in > REFER and 3rd > > > party call > > > control. I'm not convinced that writing very detailed > procedures > > > makes much sense > > > as it could get overly complicated. Somehow, I think we > need some > > > high-level > > > statement about not allowing "derived connections" (such as one > > > obtained when > > > REFER or 3rd-party call control) to effectively downgrade > > from SIPS > > > to SIP. > > > Anyboy has any toughts on the issue? > > > > > > - The other open issue is about GRUU. How should the UAC > > react if the > > > returned > > > GRUU is SIP but the To was SIPS? How should the UAC react if the > > > returned > > > GRUU is SIPS but the To was SIP? Any ideas? (Maybe we can > > be a bit > > > more > > > prescriptive here). > > > > > > > > > A detailed diff can be found at: > > > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/rfcdiff/rfcdiff.pyht?url1=http://t > > > ools.ietf. > > > org/id/draft-ietf-sip-sips-00.txt&url2=http://tools.ietf.org/i > > > d/draft-ie > > > tf-sip-sips-01.txt > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > > > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use > > > sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use > > > sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip > > > > > > _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 13 13:19:27 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HH2F5-00088L-FJ; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:19:03 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HH2F3-00087K-K2 for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:19:01 -0500 Received: from ihemail1.lucent.com ([135.245.0.33]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HH2F2-0007d9-99 for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:19:01 -0500 Received: from ihmail.ih.lucent.com (h135-1-218-70.lucent.com [135.1.218.70]) by ihemail1.lucent.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id l1DIItUs002307; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 12:18:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from [135.244.41.67] (vkg.lra.lucent.com [135.244.41.67]) by ihmail.ih.lucent.com (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1DIItu06689; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 12:18:55 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <45D2010F.7060801@alcatel-lucent.com> Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 12:18:55 -0600 From: "Vijay K. Gurbani" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.5 (Windows/20060719) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Francois Audet Subject: Re: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips-01.txt References: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F28185E@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F28185E@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 135.245.2.33 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Cc: sip@ietf.org X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Francois Audet wrote: > Hi John, > > I think the short answer is that SIPS by definition means TLS. Just like > HTTPS by definition means TLS. That has worked well so far when TLS was only used over TCP for SIP (in HTTP, TCP is the only transport, so HTTPS auto- magically implies TLS over TCP.) I think what will probably cause a logjam is when TLS is used with other transports (UDP and SCTP.) Then, the preference of a TLS transport can be specified in the URI using the "transport" parameter with the sips scheme. Alternatively, DNS NAPTR could be used as well. I do not know to what extent, if any, we need to specify this in draft-ietf-sips-01. Thanks, - vijay -- Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent 2701 Lucent Lane, Rm. 9F-546, Lisle, Illinois 60532 (USA) Email: vkg@{alcatel-lucent.com,bell-labs.com,acm.org} WWW: http://www.alcatel-lucent.com/bell-labs _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 13 13:23:50 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HH2JV-0006OO-Sk; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:23:37 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HH2JU-0006Nj-3T for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:23:36 -0500 Received: from zcars04f.nortel.com ([47.129.242.57]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HH2JR-0008AO-OM for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:23:36 -0500 Received: from zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com (zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com [47.103.123.71]) by zcars04f.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id l1DINVT04146 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:23:31 -0500 (EST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips-01.txt Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 12:23:28 -0600 Message-ID: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F28190E@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <45D2010F.7060801@alcatel-lucent.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips-01.txt Thread-Index: AcdPm3ShFKC0mMYtQPOmRITfkschMAAAHC5g From: "Francois Audet" To: "Vijay K. Gurbani" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Cc: sip@ietf.org X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org For what it's worth: TLS over SCTP is already defined, and there is a Via field for that. Not so for DTLS.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Vijay K. Gurbani [mailto:vkg@alcatel-lucent.com]=20 > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 10:19 > To: Audet, Francois (SC100:3055) > Cc: sip@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips-01.txt >=20 > Francois Audet wrote: > > Hi John, > >=20 > > I think the short answer is that SIPS by definition means TLS. Just=20 > > like HTTPS by definition means TLS. >=20 > That has worked well so far when TLS was only used over TCP=20 > for SIP (in HTTP, TCP is the only transport, so HTTPS auto-=20 > magically implies TLS over TCP.) >=20 > I think what will probably cause a logjam is when TLS is used=20 > with other transports (UDP and SCTP.) Then, the preference=20 > of a TLS transport can be specified in the URI using the "transport" > parameter with the sips scheme. >=20 > Alternatively, DNS NAPTR could be used as well. >=20 > I do not know to what extent, if any, we need to specify this=20 > in draft-ietf-sips-01. >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > - vijay > -- > Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent > 2701 Lucent Lane, Rm. 9F-546, Lisle, Illinois 60532 (USA) > Email: vkg@{alcatel-lucent.com,bell-labs.com,acm.org} > WWW: http://www.alcatel-lucent.com/bell-labs >=20 _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 13 14:41:54 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HH3WG-0006an-Qu; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 14:40:52 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HH3WF-0006aE-HY; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 14:40:51 -0500 Received: from mx11.bbn.com ([128.33.0.80]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HH3WE-0008A6-4v; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 14:40:51 -0500 Received: from dommiel.bbn.com ([192.1.122.15] helo=[127.0.0.1]) by mx11.bbn.com with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1HH3W8-0003pa-5w; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 14:40:45 -0500 Message-ID: <45D2143D.9020907@bbn.com> Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 14:40:45 -0500 From: Richard Barnes User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Francois Audet Subject: Re: [Sipping] Re: [Sip] New draft on early media References: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F21D58F@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F21D58F@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 29dc808194f5fb921c09d0040806d6eb Cc: sip@ietf.org, sipping@ietf.org, "Christer Holmberg \(JO/LMF\)" X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Francois, I think I have some responses, but I'd like to ask you first: What do you mean by "media cut-through"? Thanks, --Richard Francois Audet wrote: > Hi Richard, > > Forcing media cut-through to occur only after an Answer has been > received > does solve SOME of the early media problems. As others have mentioned, > there > are environments that operate like this already. I also know many > products that > do not cut-through media before the answer is received. > > But there are other problems related with early media. Brian Stucker's > draft > listed a bunch of them. > > Forking for example comes to mind: even if we did mandate cut-through > after > answer, we would still have problems related with forking (i.e., how to > pick > the stream that needs to be played, and how to correlate the stream with > the > signaling). How to deal with SRTP key exchange in that scenario is an > even > bigger problem. > > Clipping is a possible side-effect of your proposal. We'd need some > mechanism to > mitigate it, in particular for auto-answer scenarios. > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Richard Barnes [mailto:rbarnes@bbn.com] >> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 07:08 >> To: Christer Holmberg (JO/LMF) >> Cc: sip@ietf.org; sipping@ietf.org >> Subject: [Sipping] Re: [Sip] New draft on early media >> >> Christer, >> >> Thanks for your comments. Responses inline. >> >> Cheers, >> --Richard >> >>> I haven't had time to read the document yet, but I am not >> sure I agree >>> with the statement saying that the biggest problem is media >> arriving >>> before the SDP answer. In some environments such media will >> not even >>> reach the terminal, due to gating etc. >> Perhaps a better term would be "media sent before an SDP >> answer has been received". As you point out, sending media >> before an SDP offer/answer exchange has completed poses the >> risk that that media will not arrive. >> To put it in the terms used in the document, media clipping >> is a problem caused by early (pre-SDP-answer) media, and thus >> one which this document seeks to solve. >> >>> Many implementations DO send an SDP answer (or, at least an >> unreliable >>> "preview" of the SDP answer) before (or at the same time as) early >>> media is sent. >> This is the behavior we would like to standardize -- that an >> SDP answer is *always* sent before media of any type. What >> we're trying to do with this document is describe the >> requirements for how that answer is sent, and consolidate the >> many ways people have proposed to send it. >> >>> And, in the cases where implementations do NOT send an SDP answer >>> before they start sending early media - what behavior would you be >>> able to standardize? >> We would prefer that standards not allow this behavior -- >> that seems like the right thing to me. What's a little >> trickier is that you'd like to not have the answerer sending >> media before the answer has *arrived*. >> When the answer is carried in a reliable message, you could >> just forbid sending media before receipt has been confirmed. >> When the transport is unreliable, the situation is a little >> less clear, but I think there's still possibilities for >> standardization, e.g., by forbidding answerers to send media >> until they've received media. This is discussed in more >> length in the document. >> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Christer >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Richard Barnes [mailto:rbarnes@bbn.com] >>>> Sent: 8. helmikuuta 2007 21:47 >>>> To: sip@ietf.org; sipping@ietf.org >>>> Subject: [Sip] New draft on early media >>>> >>>> After the big discussions on SIPPING last summer about how to fix >>>> early media, and the reaction at the last couple of IETFs to Brian >>>> Stucker's draft on how to cope with it, I've put together >> a draft to >>>> try to consolidate all of the discussions and move toward >> a solution. >>>> draft-barnes-sip-em-ps-req-sol includes three important parts: >>>> >>>> 1. Problem statement: Although there's lots of definitions >> of "early >>>> media" in existing documents, I think there's broad agreement that >>>> the stuff that causes problems is media that arrives before an SDP >>>> offer/answer exchange has completed. >>>> The problem is therefore to enable the SDP exchange(s) in >> the INVITE >>>> transaction to complete more quickly, and make it more >> difficult (if >>>> not impossible) to send media before it has completed. We are >>>> explicitly NOT trying to prevent the sending of media >> before a 200/OK >>>> or other closing of an INVITE transaction. >>>> >>>> 2. Requirements: Here, we try to create a consolidated list of >>>> requirements for an early media fix. >>>> >>>> 3. Analysis of Solutions: Lots of folks have put forward >> proposals to >>>> fix the early media problem. This section tries to >> enumerate most of >>>> them and evaluate them against the requirements in section 2. >>>> >>>> It hasn't shown up yet on the I-D tracker, so I've attached a copy. >>>> >>>> --Richard >>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sipping mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sipping >> This list is for NEW development of the application of SIP >> Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current >> sip Use sip@ietf.org for new developments of core SIP >> > > _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 13 15:51:46 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HH4bS-0008Jf-Tr; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:50:18 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HH4bD-0007zS-LC; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:50:03 -0500 Received: from ns0.neustar.com ([156.154.16.158]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HH4bD-0007Ie-0O; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:50:03 -0500 Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns0.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C511D32934; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 20:50:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HH4bC-0002xD-KV; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:50:02 -0500 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:50:02 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-Scan-Signature: 73734d43604d52d23b3eba644a169745 Cc: sip@ietf.org Subject: [Sip] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-session-policy-framework-01.txt X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Session Initiation Protocol Working Group of the IETF. Title : A Framework for Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) Session Policies Author(s) : V. Hilt, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-sip-session-policy-framework-01.txt Pages : 30 Date : 2007-2-13 Proxy servers play a central role as an intermediary in the Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) as they define and impact policies on call routing, rendezvous, and other call features. This document specifies a framework for SIP session policies that provides a standard mechanism by which a proxy can define or influence policies on sessions, such as the codecs or media types to be used. It defines a model, an overall architecture and new protocol mechanisms for session policies. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-session-policy-framework-01.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-sip-session-policy-framework-01.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-session-policy-framework-01.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-2-13131344.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-session-policy-framework-01.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-sip-session-policy-framework-01.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-2-13131344.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --NextPart-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 13 15:52:10 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HH4dG-0002UR-BN; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:52:10 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HH4cB-0000uo-RJ; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:51:04 -0500 Received: from ns3.neustar.com ([156.154.24.138]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HH4cB-0003IB-Dn; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:51:03 -0500 Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns3.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4264817650; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 20:50:03 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1HH4bC-0002xt-Vi; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:50:02 -0500 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:50:02 -0500 X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-Scan-Signature: 3002fc2e661cd7f114cb6bae92fe88f1 Cc: sip@ietf.org Subject: [Sip] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Session Initiation Protocol Working Group of the IETF. Title : Session Initiation Protocol Location Conveyance Author(s) : J. Polk, B. Rosen Filename : draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt Pages : 35 Date : 2007-2-13 This document defines an extension to the Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) to convey geographic location information from one SIP entity to another SIP entity. The extension covers end to end conveyance as well as location-based routing, where proxy servers make routing decisions based on the location of the UAC. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-2-13141256.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-2-13141256.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --NextPart-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 13 16:39:26 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HH5Mn-0001t5-DE; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 16:39:13 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HH5Mm-0001su-Ew for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 16:39:12 -0500 Received: from sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com ([171.71.176.72] helo=sj-iport-3.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HH5Mh-0000Jh-3K for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 16:39:12 -0500 Received: from sj-dkim-4.cisco.com ([171.71.179.196]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Feb 2007 13:39:06 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,164,1170662400"; d="scan'208"; a="464273596:sNHT48239076" Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (sj-core-5.cisco.com [171.71.177.238]) by sj-dkim-4.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1DLd6EM020660 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:39:06 -0800 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l1DLd6V4015157 for ; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:39:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from xfe-sjc-212.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.187]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:39:05 -0800 Received: from jmpolk-wxp.cisco.com ([171.70.228.212]) by xfe-sjc-212.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:39:05 -0800 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20070213151729.036fa078@email.cisco.com> X-Sender: jmpolk@email.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:39:05 -0600 To: sip@ietf.org From: "James M. Polk" Subject: Fwd: [Sip] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Feb 2007 21:39:05.0318 (UTC) FILETIME=[627AE860:01C74FB7] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=3768; t=1171402746; x=1172266746; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim4002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=jmpolk@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22James=20M.=20Polk=22=20 |Subject:=20Fwd=3A=20[Sip]=20I-D=0A=20=20ACTION=3Adraft-ietf-sip-location -conveyance-07.txt=20 |Sender:=20; bh=g5IJCOjEoV1aiePnr2ZJKkjdCT4MLdgOFWBz2kn5fzE=; b=axUteP8wN337LlRxGgsoAPIpn41eykfIa0EUyMklKk0I7l3F6Mdro9eaAtl8VsryyziXWrQm cv3L1uQE/fErtTmNoY1n+c9YY5CGIpeoLxBGku1F08+ERmENiNfS9vHO; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-4; header.From=jmpolk@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim4002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 73734d43604d52d23b3eba644a169745 X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org SIP WG We've submitted the -07 version of the Location Conveyance document based on comments from Shida Shubert and Matt Lepinski, some of which were very good, and well appreciated. Most (all?) were either nits or asking for clarifications/rewrites of a few individual sentences that didn't seem to make sense as written. We think this document is now done and have asked the chairs for WGLC on it. Comments are appreciated James & Brian >To: i-d-announce@ietf.org >From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org >Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:50:02 -0500 >Cc: sip@ietf.org >Subject: [Sip] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt > >A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >directories. >This draft is a work item of the Session Initiation Protocol Working Group >of the IETF. > > Title : Session Initiation Protocol Location Conveyance > Author(s) : J. Polk, B. Rosen > Filename : draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt > Pages : 35 > Date : 2007-2-13 > >This document defines an extension to the Session Initiation > Protocol (SIP) to convey geographic location information from one > SIP entity to another SIP entity. The extension covers end to end > conveyance as well as location-based routing, where proxy servers > make routing decisions based on the location of the UAC. > >A URL for this Internet-Draft is: >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt > >To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to >i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of >the message. >You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce >to change your subscription settings. > >Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the >username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After >logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then >"get draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt". > >A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in >http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html >or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > >Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. > >Send a message to: > mailserv@ietf.org. >In the body type: > "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt". > >NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this > feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" > command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or > a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers > exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with > "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split > up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on > how to manipulate these messages. > >Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader >implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the >Internet-Draft. >Content-Type: text/plain >Content-ID: <2007-2-13141256.I-D@ietf.org> > >ENCODING mime >FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt > > >_______________________________________________ >Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip >This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol >Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip >Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 13 17:09:51 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HH5pd-0004ik-Vs; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 17:09:01 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HH5pb-0004iF-SU; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 17:08:59 -0500 Received: from zcars04f.nortel.com ([47.129.242.57]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HH5pa-000465-Dv; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 17:08:59 -0500 Received: from zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com (zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com [47.103.123.71]) by zcars04f.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id l1DM8rT09032; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 17:08:53 -0500 (EST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Sipping] Re: [Sip] New draft on early media Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 16:08:50 -0600 Message-ID: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F281DFC@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <45D2143D.9020907@bbn.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Sipping] Re: [Sip] New draft on early media Thread-Index: AcdPtq7FxGJRhOl2RYKBqE+agQuZ4gABNUkA From: "Francois Audet" To: "Richard Barnes" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 156eddb66af16eef49a76ae923b15b92 Cc: sip@ietf.org, sipping@ietf.org, "Christer Holmberg \(JO/LMF\)" X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org I mean play incoming media.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Barnes [mailto:rbarnes@bbn.com]=20 > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 11:41 > To: Audet, Francois (SC100:3055) > Cc: Christer Holmberg (JO/LMF); sip@ietf.org; sipping@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Sipping] Re: [Sip] New draft on early media >=20 > Francois, >=20 > I think I have some responses, but I'd like to ask you first:=20 > What do you mean by "media cut-through"? >=20 > Thanks, > --Richard >=20 > Francois Audet wrote: > > Hi Richard, > >=20 > > Forcing media cut-through to occur only after an Answer has been=20 > > received does solve SOME of the early media problems. As=20 > others have=20 > > mentioned, there are environments that operate like this already. I=20 > > also know many products that do not cut-through media before the=20 > > answer is received. > >=20 > > But there are other problems related with early media.=20 > Brian Stucker's=20 > > draft listed a bunch of them. > >=20 > > Forking for example comes to mind: even if we did mandate=20 > cut-through=20 > > after answer, we would still have problems related with=20 > forking (i.e.,=20 > > how to pick the stream that needs to be played, and how to=20 > correlate=20 > > the stream with the signaling). How to deal with SRTP key=20 > exchange in=20 > > that scenario is an even bigger problem. > >=20 > > Clipping is a possible side-effect of your proposal. We'd need some=20 > > mechanism to mitigate it, in particular for auto-answer scenarios. > >=20 > >=20 > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Richard Barnes [mailto:rbarnes@bbn.com] > >> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 07:08 > >> To: Christer Holmberg (JO/LMF) > >> Cc: sip@ietf.org; sipping@ietf.org > >> Subject: [Sipping] Re: [Sip] New draft on early media > >> > >> Christer, > >> > >> Thanks for your comments. Responses inline. > >> > >> Cheers, > >> --Richard > >> > >>> I haven't had time to read the document yet, but I am not > >> sure I agree > >>> with the statement saying that the biggest problem is media > >> arriving > >>> before the SDP answer. In some environments such media will > >> not even > >>> reach the terminal, due to gating etc. > >> Perhaps a better term would be "media sent before an SDP=20 > answer has=20 > >> been received". As you point out, sending media before an SDP=20 > >> offer/answer exchange has completed poses the risk that that media=20 > >> will not arrive. > >> To put it in the terms used in the document, media clipping is a=20 > >> problem caused by early (pre-SDP-answer) media, and thus one which=20 > >> this document seeks to solve. > >> > >>> Many implementations DO send an SDP answer (or, at least an > >> unreliable > >>> "preview" of the SDP answer) before (or at the same time=20 > as) early=20 > >>> media is sent. > >> This is the behavior we would like to standardize -- that an SDP=20 > >> answer is *always* sent before media of any type. What=20 > we're trying=20 > >> to do with this document is describe the requirements for how that=20 > >> answer is sent, and consolidate the many ways people have=20 > proposed to=20 > >> send it. > >> > >>> And, in the cases where implementations do NOT send an SDP answer=20 > >>> before they start sending early media - what behavior=20 > would you be=20 > >>> able to standardize? > >> We would prefer that standards not allow this behavior --=20 > that seems=20 > >> like the right thing to me. What's a little trickier is=20 > that you'd=20 > >> like to not have the answerer sending media before the answer has=20 > >> *arrived*. > >> When the answer is carried in a reliable message, you could just=20 > >> forbid sending media before receipt has been confirmed. > >> When the transport is unreliable, the situation is a little less=20 > >> clear, but I think there's still possibilities for=20 > standardization,=20 > >> e.g., by forbidding answerers to send media until they've received=20 > >> media. This is discussed in more length in the document. > >> > >>> Regards, > >>> > >>> Christer > >>> > >>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: Richard Barnes [mailto:rbarnes@bbn.com] > >>>> Sent: 8. helmikuuta 2007 21:47 > >>>> To: sip@ietf.org; sipping@ietf.org > >>>> Subject: [Sip] New draft on early media > >>>> > >>>> After the big discussions on SIPPING last summer about=20 > how to fix=20 > >>>> early media, and the reaction at the last couple of=20 > IETFs to Brian=20 > >>>> Stucker's draft on how to cope with it, I've put together > >> a draft to > >>>> try to consolidate all of the discussions and move toward > >> a solution. > >>>> draft-barnes-sip-em-ps-req-sol includes three important parts: > >>>> > >>>> 1. Problem statement: Although there's lots of definitions > >> of "early > >>>> media" in existing documents, I think there's broad=20 > agreement that=20 > >>>> the stuff that causes problems is media that arrives=20 > before an SDP=20 > >>>> offer/answer exchange has completed. > >>>> The problem is therefore to enable the SDP exchange(s) in > >> the INVITE > >>>> transaction to complete more quickly, and make it more > >> difficult (if > >>>> not impossible) to send media before it has completed. We are=20 > >>>> explicitly NOT trying to prevent the sending of media > >> before a 200/OK > >>>> or other closing of an INVITE transaction. > >>>> > >>>> 2. Requirements: Here, we try to create a consolidated list of=20 > >>>> requirements for an early media fix. > >>>> > >>>> 3. Analysis of Solutions: Lots of folks have put forward > >> proposals to > >>>> fix the early media problem. This section tries to > >> enumerate most of > >>>> them and evaluate them against the requirements in section 2. > >>>> > >>>> It hasn't shown up yet on the I-D tracker, so I've=20 > attached a copy. > >>>> > >>>> --Richard > >>>> > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sipping mailing list =20 > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sipping > >> This list is for NEW development of the application of SIP Use=20 > >> sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use=20 > >> sip@ietf.org for new developments of core SIP > >> > >=20 > >=20 >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From stocknews@toys-n-ireland.com Tue Feb 13 19:58:14 2007 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HH8TO-0001bs-PC for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 19:58:14 -0500 Received: from 61-225-47-50.dynamic.hinet.net ([61.225.47.50] helo=mychat-1526ab02) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HH8TN-0001xe-8A for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 19:58:14 -0500 From: Reginald To: Subject: The news part attempts to give you an overview of how Usenet news works, covers C news, the most widely used news transport software Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 00:58:14 -0480 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 1.9 (+) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 She took legal action as she thought it was damaging. 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Also, the fact that she was called a 'Paki', From ajocovicsolea@buckfax.com Tue Feb 13 20:07:51 2007 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HH8ch-0008C8-16; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 20:07:51 -0500 Received: from [121.35.199.8] (helo=buckfax.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HH8ce-00048r-6X; Tue, 13 Feb 2007 20:07:50 -0500 Message-ID: <24a501c74fb7$4e9fbf50$45e9eed7@ajocovicsolea> From: "Jody" To: "Cathrine Phillips" Cc: "Kassie Montgomery" , "Roderick" , "Lucas" , "Kemberly Thomas" , "Nia Bryant" , "Roselia Sullivan" , "Jarred" , "Danae Mcdonald" , "Monroe Hill" , "Danille" , "Pansy" Subject: Over Yet Or No Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 21:38:32 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_4B8_83AA_85D33278.F38BCAC8" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2616 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V10.0.2616 X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b5216aa5b0df24d46eaed76d4f65aa31 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_4B8_83AA_85D33278.F38BCAC8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_981_EB7F_5F8B32A5.D620F55A" ------=_NextPart_981_EB7F_5F8B32A5.D620F55A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable complete Owing to attraction the very mind observation judicious plan of = dividing the t "He exists monkey bird arm as certainly supply as that y= ou may see his sm own "They are safe chance Spanish smugglers," said op= en he; "they havepunch summer "What seek are animal your excellency's ord= ers?" inquired Gaet concerned greedily THE SUN had pack table nearly reached the meridian, an= d his s "Just so; and journey swung now here are slip 32,500 feather fra= ncs payable s whispering "I recognize them," said substance loose Morrel= , stretch whose face was su scratchy authority flow But it was not honestly upon Corsica, the very ho= uses of wh Most important of squealing light my readers wheel are aware that the sec= ond act o"In flat encouraging the smash cart first place, light me a torc= h.""And what step love are these plant Corsican bandits bone doing here w= ireceipt smash "Ah, yes, I needle understand," thrust replied the patron,= "to f Dants, as we have rinse said, hammer point had jagged traced the marks al= on "No, I have for courageous the amusement end of the month prevent thi= nk these bills w "Yes, alive sir," replied proved slit spoon the Engli= shman. "I will not,"   Then desire following admire the clew that, cystic in daughter the hands = of the process "Nay," answered proud behavior reward the countess, "I know no mo= re of hGiovanni obeyed. arrive Franz took the hurt move gave lamp, and en= tered"Alas," strange returned the force captain with feed an square accen= t of theWhen clip Franz in speedily appeared again miniature on the shore= , the yacht Dants net like paper dug away the earth stain carefully, and detected, = "I chin break know more that," replied the Englishman. "But breath as a m= "Well," dust upset excited burst said the other, "if this last resource= fai nail warm Dants approached the impossible upper rock, weaved which now, w= itho "Ah!" said table Franz, strung long skirt "then you are a smuggle= r occasio book view "Perhaps you did fruit never before noticed him?""Don't naughty= theory you remember," said the patron, thread button "I told you"Your ex= cellency, we excite to must scissors quickly live somehow," returnedback = "True; and he is sane going square to land bulb them," added Franz. On the spot it open had leg occupied smoke buzz was a circular space, spe= nd "Well," come returned Morrel, "it is to cheerful a cruel thing to b ra= t "Have you no friends nod who could swim obnoxious assist you?" Morrel = "What by a question--so truly French! shine move Do far you not know"Prec= isely grab sound flight obedient so," replied Gaetano. 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scratchy authority flow But it was not honestly upon Corsica, the very ho= uses of wh  

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Then desire following admire the clew that, cystic in daughter the hands = of the     
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"True," replied Franz."And leap drank stick what cares early he for that,= " replied Gaetano with"Oh, train yes, we band swim sailors are lent like = freemasons, and recoIt was apparatus defiantly perfectly clear spread tha= t morning the Signor Sinbad, Fra     
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2007 00:35:58 -0500 Received: from [124.197.47.4] (helo=[192.168.1.10]) by mxsrv2.tranzpeer.net with ESMTP (Exim 4.50) id 1HHCo1-0004YL-Ge for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:35:49 +1300 Message-ID: <45D29FB8.8010309@hamptonsoftware.co.uk> Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:35:52 +1300 From: Neil Hampton Organization: Hampton Software Limited User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sip@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Subject: [Sip] Comments on draft-ietf-sip-multiple-refer-01.txt X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org I have just come against a call centre application that requires a REFER to multiple destinations. In my investigations, it appears that draft-ietf-sip-multiple-refer-01.txt meets what I require from the message. After reading the draft, however, I am a little disappointed that it does not use a SIP header to specify the destinations but instead an XML body. This seems to me to go a little against the grain - why do we need another format to specify a call control mechanism? Surely the current SIP syntax can handle it! The addition of XML means that implementations that wish to use REFER in this way, and previously contained purely a SIP stack, now require an XML parser with the implications for performance etc. This also makes this request more difficult to implement on resource limited devices. Are there any alternatives in discussion? A Refer-To header with multiple values seems more appropriate to me; and if this violates the REFER specification, perhaps add a Refer-Cc header? -- Regards, Neil Hampton. Hampton Software Ltd. Tel: +64 9 974 3601 Mobile: +64 2102 344909 http://www.hamptonsoftware.co.uk Hampton Software Limited is a company incorporated in England and Wales (Company Number 5563994) and has its registered office at Hatherley House, Bisley Green, Bisley, Surrey. GU24 9EW. _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 14 17:39:27 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHSlk-0007xM-DI; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:38:32 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHSli-0007xE-Rw; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:38:30 -0500 Received: from mx12.bbn.com ([128.33.0.81]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHSlh-0006vV-Bb; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:38:30 -0500 Received: from dommiel.bbn.com ([192.1.122.15] helo=[127.0.0.1]) by mx12.bbn.com with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1HHSlZ-0007QE-3O; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:38:21 -0500 Message-ID: <45D38F5C.9050901@bbn.com> Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:38:20 -0500 From: Richard Barnes User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Francois Audet Subject: Re: [Sipping] Re: [Sip] New draft on early media References: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F281DFC@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F281DFC@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cdb443e3957ca9b4c5b55e78cfcf4b26 Cc: sip@ietf.org, sipping@ietf.org, "Christer Holmberg \(JO/LMF\)" X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Thanks for the clarification. I know that choosing media streams to render is a big problem, but it's one I'm viewing as beyond the scope of what our draft is explicitly trying to address. That said, I think that ensuring that media are preceded by an SDP answer is a big step in enabling better management of media streams, since it gives the offeror (media recipient) SDP metadata on which to base its decision. Once an SDP answer is guaranteed to come before media, the issue can be treated more at the SDP layer (e.g. by giving SDP sufficient expressiveness to support decisions between media streams), rather than at the SIP layer. With respect to forking in particular: You're correct that even if all streams from forked endpoints are preceded by SDP answers, the UAC still has to figure out how to deal with them. But I think that once you ensure that the offer/answer finishes before media flows, SRTP keying gets a lot simpler, since the UAC can just do a DH exchange through your favorite SDP mechanism with each endpoint. Clipping is certainly something that could be an issue, but I think it can be prevented. The solution I think will work in the end is that an SDP answer will be sent immediately by the UAS on receipt of the INVITE, before any other action is taken (e.g., before the INVITE is passed to the TU). For example, a PSTN gateway receiving a SIP INVITE would return its answer before it initiates the outbound PSTN call. It seems to me like the negotion of an SDP association should precede SIP session establishment just like TCP negotiation would precede initiation of a higher-layer protocol session. Does that make sense? --Richard Francois Audet wrote: > I mean play incoming media. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Richard Barnes [mailto:rbarnes@bbn.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 11:41 >> To: Audet, Francois (SC100:3055) >> Cc: Christer Holmberg (JO/LMF); sip@ietf.org; sipping@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Sipping] Re: [Sip] New draft on early media >> >> Francois, >> >> I think I have some responses, but I'd like to ask you first: >> What do you mean by "media cut-through"? >> >> Thanks, >> --Richard >> >> Francois Audet wrote: >>> Hi Richard, >>> >>> Forcing media cut-through to occur only after an Answer has been >>> received does solve SOME of the early media problems. As >> others have >>> mentioned, there are environments that operate like this already. I >>> also know many products that do not cut-through media before the >>> answer is received. >>> >>> But there are other problems related with early media. >> Brian Stucker's >>> draft listed a bunch of them. >>> >>> Forking for example comes to mind: even if we did mandate >> cut-through >>> after answer, we would still have problems related with >> forking (i.e., >>> how to pick the stream that needs to be played, and how to >> correlate >>> the stream with the signaling). How to deal with SRTP key >> exchange in >>> that scenario is an even bigger problem. >>> >>> Clipping is a possible side-effect of your proposal. We'd need some >>> mechanism to mitigate it, in particular for auto-answer scenarios. >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Richard Barnes [mailto:rbarnes@bbn.com] >>>> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 07:08 >>>> To: Christer Holmberg (JO/LMF) >>>> Cc: sip@ietf.org; sipping@ietf.org >>>> Subject: [Sipping] Re: [Sip] New draft on early media >>>> >>>> Christer, >>>> >>>> Thanks for your comments. Responses inline. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> --Richard >>>> >>>>> I haven't had time to read the document yet, but I am not >>>> sure I agree >>>>> with the statement saying that the biggest problem is media >>>> arriving >>>>> before the SDP answer. In some environments such media will >>>> not even >>>>> reach the terminal, due to gating etc. >>>> Perhaps a better term would be "media sent before an SDP >> answer has >>>> been received". As you point out, sending media before an SDP >>>> offer/answer exchange has completed poses the risk that that media >>>> will not arrive. >>>> To put it in the terms used in the document, media clipping is a >>>> problem caused by early (pre-SDP-answer) media, and thus one which >>>> this document seeks to solve. >>>> >>>>> Many implementations DO send an SDP answer (or, at least an >>>> unreliable >>>>> "preview" of the SDP answer) before (or at the same time >> as) early >>>>> media is sent. >>>> This is the behavior we would like to standardize -- that an SDP >>>> answer is *always* sent before media of any type. What >> we're trying >>>> to do with this document is describe the requirements for how that >>>> answer is sent, and consolidate the many ways people have >> proposed to >>>> send it. >>>> >>>>> And, in the cases where implementations do NOT send an SDP answer >>>>> before they start sending early media - what behavior >> would you be >>>>> able to standardize? >>>> We would prefer that standards not allow this behavior -- >> that seems >>>> like the right thing to me. What's a little trickier is >> that you'd >>>> like to not have the answerer sending media before the answer has >>>> *arrived*. >>>> When the answer is carried in a reliable message, you could just >>>> forbid sending media before receipt has been confirmed. >>>> When the transport is unreliable, the situation is a little less >>>> clear, but I think there's still possibilities for >> standardization, >>>> e.g., by forbidding answerers to send media until they've received >>>> media. This is discussed in more length in the document. >>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Christer >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Richard Barnes [mailto:rbarnes@bbn.com] >>>>>> Sent: 8. helmikuuta 2007 21:47 >>>>>> To: sip@ietf.org; sipping@ietf.org >>>>>> Subject: [Sip] New draft on early media >>>>>> >>>>>> After the big discussions on SIPPING last summer about >> how to fix >>>>>> early media, and the reaction at the last couple of >> IETFs to Brian >>>>>> Stucker's draft on how to cope with it, I've put together >>>> a draft to >>>>>> try to consolidate all of the discussions and move toward >>>> a solution. >>>>>> draft-barnes-sip-em-ps-req-sol includes three important parts: >>>>>> >>>>>> 1. Problem statement: Although there's lots of definitions >>>> of "early >>>>>> media" in existing documents, I think there's broad >> agreement that >>>>>> the stuff that causes problems is media that arrives >> before an SDP >>>>>> offer/answer exchange has completed. >>>>>> The problem is therefore to enable the SDP exchange(s) in >>>> the INVITE >>>>>> transaction to complete more quickly, and make it more >>>> difficult (if >>>>>> not impossible) to send media before it has completed. We are >>>>>> explicitly NOT trying to prevent the sending of media >>>> before a 200/OK >>>>>> or other closing of an INVITE transaction. >>>>>> >>>>>> 2. Requirements: Here, we try to create a consolidated list of >>>>>> requirements for an early media fix. >>>>>> >>>>>> 3. Analysis of Solutions: Lots of folks have put forward >>>> proposals to >>>>>> fix the early media problem. This section tries to >>>> enumerate most of >>>>>> them and evaluate them against the requirements in section 2. >>>>>> >>>>>> It hasn't shown up yet on the I-D tracker, so I've >> attached a copy. >>>>>> --Richard >>>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sipping mailing list >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sipping >>>> This list is for NEW development of the application of SIP Use >>>> sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use >>>> sip@ietf.org for new developments of core SIP >>>> >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 14 17:41:51 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHSol-0001Zz-7z; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:41:39 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHSoi-0001UO-W6; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:41:36 -0500 Received: from zcars04f.nortel.com ([47.129.242.57]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHSog-0007Bv-Fc; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:41:36 -0500 Received: from zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com (zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com [47.103.123.71]) by zcars04f.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id l1EMfVY26126; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:41:31 -0500 (EST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Sipping] Re: [Sip] New draft on early media Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 16:41:05 -0600 Message-ID: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F31AD3F@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <45D38F5C.9050901@bbn.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Sipping] Re: [Sip] New draft on early media Thread-Index: AcdQiNr9Ar+iFqn6S/WNCFhVSRunbAAAE4nw From: "Francois Audet" To: "Richard Barnes" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bcd240e64c427d3d3617cfc704e7fd7f Cc: sip@ietf.org, sipping@ietf.org, "Christer Holmberg \(JO/LMF\)" X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org I think it makes sense as a starting point for a partial solution, yes.=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Barnes [mailto:rbarnes@bbn.com]=20 > Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 14:38 > To: Audet, Francois (SC100:3055) > Cc: Christer Holmberg (JO/LMF); sip@ietf.org; sipping@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Sipping] Re: [Sip] New draft on early media >=20 > Thanks for the clarification. I know that choosing media=20 > streams to render is a big problem, but it's one I'm viewing=20 > as beyond the scope of what our draft is explicitly trying to address. >=20 > That said, I think that ensuring that media are preceded by=20 > an SDP answer is a big step in enabling better management of=20 > media streams, since it gives the offeror (media recipient)=20 > SDP metadata on which to base its decision. Once an SDP=20 > answer is guaranteed to come before media, the issue can be=20 > treated more at the SDP layer (e.g. by giving SDP sufficient=20 > expressiveness to support decisions between media streams),=20 > rather than at the SIP layer. >=20 > With respect to forking in particular: You're correct that=20 > even if all streams from forked endpoints are preceded by SDP=20 > answers, the UAC still has to figure out how to deal with=20 > them. But I think that once you ensure that the offer/answer=20 > finishes before media flows, SRTP keying gets a lot simpler,=20 > since the UAC can just do a DH exchange through your favorite=20 > SDP mechanism with each endpoint. >=20 > Clipping is certainly something that could be an issue, but I=20 > think it can be prevented. The solution I think will work in=20 > the end is that an SDP answer will be sent immediately by the=20 > UAS on receipt of the INVITE, before any other action is=20 > taken (e.g., before the INVITE is passed to the TU). For=20 > example, a PSTN gateway receiving a SIP INVITE would return=20 > its answer before it initiates the outbound PSTN call. It=20 > seems to me like the negotion of an SDP association should=20 > precede SIP session establishment just like TCP negotiation=20 > would precede initiation of a higher-layer protocol session. >=20 > Does that make sense? > --Richard >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Francois Audet wrote: > > I mean play incoming media.=20 > >=20 > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Richard Barnes [mailto:rbarnes@bbn.com] > >> Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 11:41 > >> To: Audet, Francois (SC100:3055) > >> Cc: Christer Holmberg (JO/LMF); sip@ietf.org; sipping@ietf.org > >> Subject: Re: [Sipping] Re: [Sip] New draft on early media > >> > >> Francois, > >> > >> I think I have some responses, but I'd like to ask you first:=20 > >> What do you mean by "media cut-through"? > >> > >> Thanks, > >> --Richard > >> > >> Francois Audet wrote: > >>> Hi Richard, > >>> > >>> Forcing media cut-through to occur only after an Answer has been=20 > >>> received does solve SOME of the early media problems. As > >> others have > >>> mentioned, there are environments that operate like this=20 > already. I=20 > >>> also know many products that do not cut-through media before the=20 > >>> answer is received. > >>> > >>> But there are other problems related with early media.=20 > >> Brian Stucker's > >>> draft listed a bunch of them. > >>> > >>> Forking for example comes to mind: even if we did mandate > >> cut-through > >>> after answer, we would still have problems related with > >> forking (i.e., > >>> how to pick the stream that needs to be played, and how to > >> correlate > >>> the stream with the signaling). How to deal with SRTP key > >> exchange in > >>> that scenario is an even bigger problem. > >>> > >>> Clipping is a possible side-effect of your proposal. We'd=20 > need some=20 > >>> mechanism to mitigate it, in particular for auto-answer scenarios. > >>> > >>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: Richard Barnes [mailto:rbarnes@bbn.com] > >>>> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 07:08 > >>>> To: Christer Holmberg (JO/LMF) > >>>> Cc: sip@ietf.org; sipping@ietf.org > >>>> Subject: [Sipping] Re: [Sip] New draft on early media > >>>> > >>>> Christer, > >>>> > >>>> Thanks for your comments. Responses inline. > >>>> > >>>> Cheers, > >>>> --Richard > >>>> > >>>>> I haven't had time to read the document yet, but I am not > >>>> sure I agree > >>>>> with the statement saying that the biggest problem is media > >>>> arriving > >>>>> before the SDP answer. In some environments such media will > >>>> not even > >>>>> reach the terminal, due to gating etc. > >>>> Perhaps a better term would be "media sent before an SDP > >> answer has > >>>> been received". As you point out, sending media before an SDP=20 > >>>> offer/answer exchange has completed poses the risk that=20 > that media=20 > >>>> will not arrive. > >>>> To put it in the terms used in the document, media clipping is a=20 > >>>> problem caused by early (pre-SDP-answer) media, and thus=20 > one which=20 > >>>> this document seeks to solve. > >>>> > >>>>> Many implementations DO send an SDP answer (or, at least an > >>>> unreliable > >>>>> "preview" of the SDP answer) before (or at the same time > >> as) early > >>>>> media is sent. > >>>> This is the behavior we would like to standardize -- that an SDP=20 > >>>> answer is *always* sent before media of any type. What > >> we're trying > >>>> to do with this document is describe the requirements=20 > for how that=20 > >>>> answer is sent, and consolidate the many ways people have > >> proposed to > >>>> send it. > >>>> > >>>>> And, in the cases where implementations do NOT send an=20 > SDP answer=20 > >>>>> before they start sending early media - what behavior > >> would you be > >>>>> able to standardize? > >>>> We would prefer that standards not allow this behavior -- > >> that seems > >>>> like the right thing to me. What's a little trickier is > >> that you'd > >>>> like to not have the answerer sending media before the=20 > answer has=20 > >>>> *arrived*. > >>>> When the answer is carried in a reliable message, you=20 > could just=20 > >>>> forbid sending media before receipt has been confirmed. > >>>> When the transport is unreliable, the situation is a little less=20 > >>>> clear, but I think there's still possibilities for > >> standardization, > >>>> e.g., by forbidding answerers to send media until=20 > they've received=20 > >>>> media. This is discussed in more length in the document. > >>>> > >>>>> Regards, > >>>>> > >>>>> Christer > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: Richard Barnes [mailto:rbarnes@bbn.com] > >>>>>> Sent: 8. helmikuuta 2007 21:47 > >>>>>> To: sip@ietf.org; sipping@ietf.org > >>>>>> Subject: [Sip] New draft on early media > >>>>>> > >>>>>> After the big discussions on SIPPING last summer about > >> how to fix > >>>>>> early media, and the reaction at the last couple of > >> IETFs to Brian > >>>>>> Stucker's draft on how to cope with it, I've put together > >>>> a draft to > >>>>>> try to consolidate all of the discussions and move toward > >>>> a solution. > >>>>>> draft-barnes-sip-em-ps-req-sol includes three important parts: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> 1. Problem statement: Although there's lots of definitions > >>>> of "early > >>>>>> media" in existing documents, I think there's broad > >> agreement that > >>>>>> the stuff that causes problems is media that arrives > >> before an SDP > >>>>>> offer/answer exchange has completed. > >>>>>> The problem is therefore to enable the SDP exchange(s) in > >>>> the INVITE > >>>>>> transaction to complete more quickly, and make it more > >>>> difficult (if > >>>>>> not impossible) to send media before it has completed. We are=20 > >>>>>> explicitly NOT trying to prevent the sending of media > >>>> before a 200/OK > >>>>>> or other closing of an INVITE transaction. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> 2. Requirements: Here, we try to create a consolidated list of=20 > >>>>>> requirements for an early media fix. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> 3. Analysis of Solutions: Lots of folks have put forward > >>>> proposals to > >>>>>> fix the early media problem. This section tries to > >>>> enumerate most of > >>>>>> them and evaluate them against the requirements in section 2. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> It hasn't shown up yet on the I-D tracker, so I've > >> attached a copy. > >>>>>> --Richard > >>>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Sipping mailing list > >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sipping > >>>> This list is for NEW development of the application of SIP Use=20 > >>>> sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on=20 > current sip Use=20 > >>>> sip@ietf.org for new developments of core SIP > >>>> > >>> > >> > >=20 > >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From janetoliverwokoh@latorrev.e.telefonica.net Wed Feb 14 20:14:54 2007 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHVD4-0007HP-BX; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 20:14:54 -0500 Received: from [218.59.208.233] (helo=latorrev.e.telefonica.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHVCv-0006fp-SS; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 20:14:54 -0500 Message-ID: <038b01c7509e$150f7d60$1259fa96@janetoliverwokoh> From: "Nannie Sullivan" To: "Lorenzo Castillo" Cc: "Britt" , "Kristyn Weaver" , "Beatrice Bennett" , "Mercedes Parker" , "Larraine" , "Burt Schmidt" , "Lynelle Romero" , "Pasty Weaver" , "Particia Peterson" , "Fidel Turner" Subject: Matter Of Fact Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 01:10:29 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_346_81B8_0F5E2CD5.48014BE2" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V9.0.2416 X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2fe944273194be3112d13b31c91e6941 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_346_81B8_0F5E2CD5.48014BE2 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_452_F96F_EF2E09C9.8EFB8D52" ------=_NextPart_452_F96F_EF2E09C9.8EFB8D52 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "And pray," asked disturbed Franz, amount wool "where side are these pist= ols, "I overcome am afraid if we slimy offer them impress double powder = that we shall jump blushing rob "Well," said the thought young man, "l= et us demand hospitacast "Then they must push stretch put horses to mine.= care It is a little "Yes, sir," suffer tasteless answered the vessel stocking host, even more= surprised "How?" "Yes," continued during stop Caderousse, rhythm swung= "so it is; after five "I did." "I sing man shared the cover tick same fate at Aquapendente.""They have b= een all hired this modern drip owner father fortnight, and therlimit gott= en "How brush box many are they?""What are we communicate pain more hope = to say to this?" asked Franz. "True, I thought was a tailor, onto till the step trade sow fell off. It = amusement ray ship sigh "Horrible!" ejaculated the priest. design "And l= inen it is thus heaven recompenses husky clock virtue, sir," a   rid box wooly "As spade you please, sir," said Caderousse, who, anxiou "What!" cried soak Albert, swum foolishly whose courage fled revolted at = thoutstanding "Well, then, knee know right let us sup.""Just fear our los= s act number, so reduce that if they prove troublesomcut queue "But shake= the connection carriage and horses?" said Franz. "Quite, quite unusual alone," drop replied choose cuddly the man--"or, at= lea current "What disgust has become of Danglars, deliver vivaciously= the instigator, and right come "What has knee become suck of him? Why, = he left Marseilles, through "You are married, wipe then?" said advise the priest, system with= a s monkey hope "Silence, box box then!" said Gaetano. cerebral wrung "Eh, glass parbleu!--they spring should kill me."kind slun= g water "Well, excellency," ashamed said the landlord triumphantlyEvery s= un one obeyed. ovine For a man burned screw who, like Franz, viewetastele= ss "What stamp is the histrionic disease matter?" said Albert, entering; = "no c "Yes, honest--I can certainly say formic rhythm shop smite that much for = my "And Fernand?" peace "Fernand? grass Why, much meant crawl the sam= e story." "My dear jail solemnly Albert," returned kiss Franz, part "your answer is= pull within "Well, money receipt your Eternal City is a nice sort of plac= e."Gaetano faltered an competition excuse, announce turn garden and advan= ced to the op"That is to blunt steady treat say, excellency," thrust repl= ied Pastrini, wh stunk wood "You are wrong beautiful lovely to speak thus," said the abb; = "andcat "But, then, forward by what withstand visible potato steps has he= attained stuck "Both, sir--he overthrow has umbrella strap both fortune= and position--both "What mean you?" inquired history Caderousse with wire sent afraid a look= o "You could comb not apply forewent to any one skip better sack able to in= fburst glamorous "My friend," said Morcerf, "let sank us wave enjoy the p= reserange offer Meanwhile the sailors had collected ground dive dried sti= cks aride "At street overthrew least hole we can have a window?" 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"And pray," asked disturbed Franz, amount wool "where side are these = pistols,  "I overcome am afraid if we slimy offer them impress = double powder that we shall    jump blushing rob "Wel= l," said the thought young man, "let us demand hospitacast "Then they mus= t push stretch put horses to mine. care It is a little   &= nbsp;
"Yes, sir," suffer tasteless answered the vessel stocking host, even more= surprised  "How?"  "Yes," continued during stop Cade= rousse, rhythm swung "so it is; after five   
"I did."   

"I sing man shared the cover tick same fate at Aquapendente.""They ha= ve been all hired this modern drip owner father fortnight, and therlimit = gotten "How brush box many are they?""What are we communicate pain more h= ope to say to this?" asked Franz.     "True, I thought was a tailor, onto till the step trade sow fell off. It&= nbsp; amusement ray ship sigh "Horrible!" ejaculated the priest.&nbs= p;design "And linen it is thus heaven recompenses husky clock virtue, sir= ," a    
rid box wooly "As spade you please, sir," said Caderousse, who, anxiou&nb= sp; 
"What!" cried soak Albert, swum foolishly whose courage fled revolted at = thoutstanding "Well, then, knee know right let us sup.""Just fear our los= s act number, so reduce that if they prove troublesomcut queue "But shake= the connection carriage and horses?" said Franz.    =    
"Quite, quite unusual alone," drop replied choose cuddly the man--"or, at= lea    current "What disgust has become of Danglars,= deliver vivaciously the instigator, and  right come "What has = knee become suck of him? Why, he left Marseilles,    =    
through "You are married, wipe then?" said advise the priest, system with= a s      monkey hope "Silence, box box the= n!" said Gaetano.         
cerebral wrung "Eh, glass parbleu!--they spring should kill me."kind = slung water "Well, excellency," ashamed said the landlord triumphantlyEve= ry sun one obeyed. ovine For a man burned screw who, like Franz, viewetas= teless "What stamp is the histrionic disease matter?" said Albert, enteri= ng; "no c   "Yes, honest--I can certainly say formic rhythm shop smite that much for = my  "And Fernand?"    peace "Fernand? grass= Why, much meant crawl the same story."   
"My dear jail solemnly Albert," returned kiss Franz, part "your answer is= pull within "Well, money receipt your Eternal City is a nice sort of plac= e."Gaetano faltered an competition excuse, announce turn garden and advan= ced to the op"That is to blunt steady treat say, excellency," thrust repl= ied Pastrini, wh          stunk wood "You are wrong beautiful lovely to speak thus," said the abb; = "andcat "But, then, forward by what withstand visible potato steps has he= attained  stuck "Both, sir--he overthrow has umbrella strap bo= th fortune and position--both   
"What mean you?" inquired history Caderousse with wire sent afraid a look= o  "You could comb not apply forewent to any one skip better sack able to in= fburst glamorous "My friend," said Morcerf, "let sank us wave enjoy the p= reserange offer Meanwhile the sailors had collected ground dive dried sti= cks aride "At street overthrew least hole we can have a window?"  "Did you, in store the religion year 1814 kneel or busy 1815, know anythi= ng   sleep building "Destiny! jewel destruction destiny!" = murmured the abb. "Yes, but search listen: this stink was not contro= l all. The rat war with S        =   
cladistic "Dants? Did I know began poor cheer correct dear Edmond? Why, E= dmond"In the Corso."        
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20:37:07 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHVYY-0005V6-0L for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 20:37:06 -0500 Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com ([171.68.10.87]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHVYW-0002tN-OZ for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 20:37:05 -0500 Received: from sj-dkim-7.cisco.com ([171.68.10.88]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 14 Feb 2007 17:37:06 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,170,1170662400"; d="scan'208"; a="389201051:sNHT40945952" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-7.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1F1b4v3007133; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:37:04 -0800 Received: from dwingwxp ([10.32.240.194]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l1F1b3nF001203; Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:37:03 -0800 (PST) From: "Dan Wing" To: "'Elwell, John'" , , Subject: RE: [Sip] RE: I-D ACTION:draft-dotson-sip-certificate-auth-sol-00.txt Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 17:37:02 -0800 Message-ID: <0f9d01c750a1$cb5a2db0$c2f0200a@amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: <50B1CBA96870A34799A506B2313F26670AFFC9D1@ntht201e.siemenscomms.co.uk> Thread-Index: AcdLhz7SVE+ni6+sRq223ny9gJmvlwFGYykw DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=333; t=1171503424; x=1172367424; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim7002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=dwing@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Dan=20Wing=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20[Sip]=20RE=3A=20I-D=20ACTION=3Adraft-dotson-sip-certi ficate-auth-sol-00.txt |Sender:=20; bh=8+SJXFOW5Vmof33kJMQFEsH316y4Fn/7EtH7jvRllMA=; b=VBmjdK1g+nedBg4wWQfilI0AUwftZmzcZLO+VQjaNMct3Cx34P+h+Hqtyo9BmZF89nmeQst6 ftWOTtsRPZhfk1h72s9jSu5bbqoIYd1r6bPjkIAKyqTH7jsipPFCpEzq; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-7; header.From=dwing@cisco.com; dkim=pass (s ig from cisco.com/sjdkim7002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 Cc: X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org > I would have appreciated some discussion of the relationship > of this to TLS server authentication and mutual authentication. > Presumably the benefit of this is that it can be used for > authentication when there is more than one hop between the > UA and the server. Yes, much like SIP digest authentication. -d _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From bfoufgaeyvsp@blessfest.com Thu Feb 15 06:00:29 2007 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHeLl-0000OA-Q7 for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 06:00:29 -0500 Received: from [59.31.176.217] (helo=i-friend.megapass.net) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHeLj-0004Oe-4b for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 06:00:29 -0500 Received: from 38.100.71.25 (HELO homestar.christwebs.com) by lists.ietf.org with esmtp (041AEUTKR4 03,G1) id 4=202*-4GWQ*8-/T for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 11:00:26 -0540 Message-ID: <01c750f0$7f9f54f0$6c822ecf@bfoufgaeyvsp> From: Charles To: Subject: Internet Culture.'' 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Catch the moment!!! develop problem-solving activities can be over and just play.trouble finding buddies daughter involved From sip-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 15 06:31:31 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHeo3-0002qm-16; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 06:29:43 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHeo0-0002qc-TJ; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 06:29:40 -0500 Received: from mailgw3.ericsson.se ([193.180.251.60]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHenv-0006lB-0b; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 06:29:40 -0500 Received: from mailgw3.ericsson.se (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw3.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 22C1020502; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 12:29:20 +0100 (CET) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3c-b0fcabb0000007de-fb-45d44410e02d Received: from esealmw128.eemea.ericsson.se (unknown [153.88.254.121]) by mailgw3.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id F0F0720495; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 12:29:19 +0100 (CET) Received: from esealmw113.eemea.ericsson.se ([153.88.200.4]) by esealmw128.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 15 Feb 2007 12:29:19 +0100 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Sipping] Re: [Sip] New draft on early media Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 12:29:16 +0100 Message-ID: <7374777208BDC7449D5620EF94232567020F1D72@esealmw113.eemea.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <45D38F5C.9050901@bbn.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Sipping] Re: [Sip] New draft on early media Thread-Index: AcdQiNjklU3kkfFTTdy2L5b4YWhIEgAariYQ From: "Christer Holmberg \(JO/LMF\)" To: "Richard Barnes" , "Francois Audet" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Feb 2007 11:29:19.0782 (UTC) FILETIME=[88A0A460:01C750F4] X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 162d87dc0b780d17da9b1934777fd451 Cc: sip@ietf.org, sipping@ietf.org X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Hi,=20 >Thanks for the clarification. I know that choosing media=20 >streams to render is a big problem, but it's one I'm viewing=20 >as beyond the scope of what our draft is explicitly trying to address. Fair enough. However, I do agree with Francois that forking is one of the biggest issue. >That said, I think that ensuring that media are preceded by=20 >an SDP answer is a big step in enabling better management of=20 >media streams, since it gives the offeror (media recipient)=20 >SDP metadata on which to base its decision. I agree. >Once an SDP answer is guaranteed to come before media, the issue can be >treated more at the SDP layer (e.g. by giving SDP sufficient=20 >expressiveness to support decisions between media streams),=20 >rather than at the SIP layer. Due to different paths for signalling and media, it may be difficult to guarantee that the SDP answer reaches the UAC. But, of course, the sooner the SDP can be sent before the media, the bigger the chance is. >With respect to forking in particular: You're correct that=20 >even if all streams from forked endpoints are preceded by SDP=20 >answers, the UAC still has to figure out how to deal with=20 >them. But I think that once you ensure that the offer/answer=20 >finishes before media flows, SRTP keying gets a lot simpler,=20 >since the UAC can just do a DH exchange through your favorite=20 >SDP mechanism with each endpoint. >=20 >Clipping is certainly something that could be an issue, but I=20 >think it can be prevented. The solution I think will work in=20 >the end is that an SDP answer will be sent immediately by the=20 >UAS on receipt of the INVITE, before any other action is=20 >taken (e.g., before the INVITE is passed to the TU). For=20 >example, a PSTN gateway receiving a SIP INVITE would return=20 >its answer before it initiates the outbound PSTN call. That may not always be feasible/possible, but of course it can be used as an example.=20 I am not sure we need to go so much into details. I think the most important thing is to try to provide the SDP answer as soon as possible before the media is sent - or at latest at the same thing when the media is sent. For audio I guess a short clipping may not always be a big issue. But, for video it may be, because if the initial packages are lost it may take a relatively long time before the UAC is able to create a correct picture. >It seems to me like the negotion of an SDP association should=20 >precede SIP session establishment just like TCP negotiation=20 >would precede initiation of a higher-layer protocol session. Or the other way around, like H.323 and H.245 ;) Regards, Christer > --Richard >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Francois Audet wrote: > > I mean play incoming media.=20 > >=20 > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Richard Barnes [mailto:rbarnes@bbn.com] > >> Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 11:41 > >> To: Audet, Francois (SC100:3055) > >> Cc: Christer Holmberg (JO/LMF); sip@ietf.org; sipping@ietf.org > >> Subject: Re: [Sipping] Re: [Sip] New draft on early media > >> > >> Francois, > >> > >> I think I have some responses, but I'd like to ask you first:=20 > >> What do you mean by "media cut-through"? > >> > >> Thanks, > >> --Richard > >> > >> Francois Audet wrote: > >>> Hi Richard, > >>> > >>> Forcing media cut-through to occur only after an Answer has been=20 > >>> received does solve SOME of the early media problems. As > >> others have > >>> mentioned, there are environments that operate like this=20 > already. I=20 > >>> also know many products that do not cut-through media before the=20 > >>> answer is received. > >>> > >>> But there are other problems related with early media.=20 > >> Brian Stucker's > >>> draft listed a bunch of them. > >>> > >>> Forking for example comes to mind: even if we did mandate > >> cut-through > >>> after answer, we would still have problems related with > >> forking (i.e., > >>> how to pick the stream that needs to be played, and how to > >> correlate > >>> the stream with the signaling). How to deal with SRTP key > >> exchange in > >>> that scenario is an even bigger problem. > >>> > >>> Clipping is a possible side-effect of your proposal. We'd=20 > need some=20 > >>> mechanism to mitigate it, in particular for auto-answer scenarios. > >>> > >>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: Richard Barnes [mailto:rbarnes@bbn.com] > >>>> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 07:08 > >>>> To: Christer Holmberg (JO/LMF) > >>>> Cc: sip@ietf.org; sipping@ietf.org > >>>> Subject: [Sipping] Re: [Sip] New draft on early media > >>>> > >>>> Christer, > >>>> > >>>> Thanks for your comments. Responses inline. > >>>> > >>>> Cheers, > >>>> --Richard > >>>> > >>>>> I haven't had time to read the document yet, but I am not > >>>> sure I agree > >>>>> with the statement saying that the biggest problem is media > >>>> arriving > >>>>> before the SDP answer. In some environments such media will > >>>> not even > >>>>> reach the terminal, due to gating etc. > >>>> Perhaps a better term would be "media sent before an SDP > >> answer has > >>>> been received". As you point out, sending media before an SDP=20 > >>>> offer/answer exchange has completed poses the risk that=20 > that media=20 > >>>> will not arrive. > >>>> To put it in the terms used in the document, media clipping is a=20 > >>>> problem caused by early (pre-SDP-answer) media, and thus=20 > one which=20 > >>>> this document seeks to solve. > >>>> > >>>>> Many implementations DO send an SDP answer (or, at least an > >>>> unreliable > >>>>> "preview" of the SDP answer) before (or at the same time > >> as) early > >>>>> media is sent. > >>>> This is the behavior we would like to standardize -- that an SDP=20 > >>>> answer is *always* sent before media of any type. What > >> we're trying > >>>> to do with this document is describe the requirements=20 > for how that=20 > >>>> answer is sent, and consolidate the many ways people have > >> proposed to > >>>> send it. > >>>> > >>>>> And, in the cases where implementations do NOT send an=20 > SDP answer=20 > >>>>> before they start sending early media - what behavior > >> would you be > >>>>> able to standardize? > >>>> We would prefer that standards not allow this behavior -- > >> that seems > >>>> like the right thing to me. What's a little trickier is > >> that you'd > >>>> like to not have the answerer sending media before the=20 > answer has=20 > >>>> *arrived*. > >>>> When the answer is carried in a reliable message, you=20 > could just=20 > >>>> forbid sending media before receipt has been confirmed. > >>>> When the transport is unreliable, the situation is a little less=20 > >>>> clear, but I think there's still possibilities for > >> standardization, > >>>> e.g., by forbidding answerers to send media until=20 > they've received=20 > >>>> media. This is discussed in more length in the document. > >>>> > >>>>> Regards, > >>>>> > >>>>> Christer > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: Richard Barnes [mailto:rbarnes@bbn.com] > >>>>>> Sent: 8. helmikuuta 2007 21:47 > >>>>>> To: sip@ietf.org; sipping@ietf.org > >>>>>> Subject: [Sip] New draft on early media > >>>>>> > >>>>>> After the big discussions on SIPPING last summer about > >> how to fix > >>>>>> early media, and the reaction at the last couple of > >> IETFs to Brian > >>>>>> Stucker's draft on how to cope with it, I've put together > >>>> a draft to > >>>>>> try to consolidate all of the discussions and move toward > >>>> a solution. > >>>>>> draft-barnes-sip-em-ps-req-sol includes three important parts: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> 1. Problem statement: Although there's lots of definitions > >>>> of "early > >>>>>> media" in existing documents, I think there's broad > >> agreement that > >>>>>> the stuff that causes problems is media that arrives > >> before an SDP > >>>>>> offer/answer exchange has completed. > >>>>>> The problem is therefore to enable the SDP exchange(s) in > >>>> the INVITE > >>>>>> transaction to complete more quickly, and make it more > >>>> difficult (if > >>>>>> not impossible) to send media before it has completed. We are=20 > >>>>>> explicitly NOT trying to prevent the sending of media > >>>> before a 200/OK > >>>>>> or other closing of an INVITE transaction. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> 2. Requirements: Here, we try to create a consolidated list of=20 > >>>>>> requirements for an early media fix. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> 3. Analysis of Solutions: Lots of folks have put forward > >>>> proposals to > >>>>>> fix the early media problem. This section tries to > >>>> enumerate most of > >>>>>> them and evaluate them against the requirements in section 2. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> It hasn't shown up yet on the I-D tracker, so I've > >> attached a copy. > >>>>>> --Richard > >>>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Sipping mailing list > >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sipping > >>>> This list is for NEW development of the application of SIP Use=20 > >>>> sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on=20 > current sip Use=20 > >>>> sip@ietf.org for new developments of core SIP > >>>> > >>> > >> > >=20 > >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 15 08:35:16 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHgkO-0006qL-40; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 08:34:04 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHgkM-0006op-A9 for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 08:34:02 -0500 Received: from [69.26.51.234] (helo=mxin1.veraznet.co.in) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHgkJ-0006mm-6B for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 08:34:02 -0500 Received: from VRZIN-EX01.in.veraznetworks.com ([69.26.51.242]) by mxin1.veraznet.co.in with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:03:47 +0530 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Sip] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:03:46 +0530 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20070213151729.036fa078@email.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Sip] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt Thread-Index: AcdPt4YcqK9wGg6ARoqHzj/80vrVYABSrPgQ From: "Umesh Sharma" To: "James M. Polk" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Feb 2007 13:33:47.0469 (UTC) FILETIME=[EBB73FD0:01C75105] X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 848ed35f2a4fc0638fa89629cb640f48 Cc: X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Pls find comments:=20 1. Introduction=20 >> It defines a "target" as the entity whose location is being transmitted, in this case, it is=20 >>the user agent's (UA) location.=20 Target is probably only the "User Agent(UA)" (or the physical box in which UA is present). >> ... SIP request, where the choice of the next hop (and usually, the=20 >> outgoing Request URI) is determined by the location of the UAC which >> is in the message by-value or by-reference May consider rewording like "... is determined by the location of the UAC which may be conveyed in the message." or ".. is determined by the location of the UAC which may be present as by-vlaue or by-reference." etc. 3.1 >> Since body parts may not be inserted by a proxy server, location-by-value=20 >> cannot be inserted by a proxy. A UA's proxy or server would like to insert it=20 by-value, where a particular Location Server may not be globally accessible ? >> The "inserted-by" parameter has values of "endpoint" or "server",=20 >> indicative of which entry ... indicative of which entity=20 =20 >>If a SIP message is routed within the network based on the location >> contained within that message, the "message-routed-on-this-uri".. "within the network" -- the scope of network is not clear. 3.2=20 >>contain one of two types of URIs:contain of the two types of URIs. >>Discussing location using the PUBLISH Request Method out of scope for this document ]is[ out of scope for this document 3.5 >> Appearance of the option tag in the Require header is a request for location to >> be conveyed. >From rfc3261 it is inferred that the UAS needs to understand the conveyance information coming from UAC/etc.=20 Maybe an emergency call where there are two PSAPs where call could be forwarded, the one who understands the Geo-LocationInfo ulitmately gets the call. 4.1 >>...indicates the content-ID location [RFC2392] within the multipart=20 >> message body of were location information is message body of ]where[ location information is Thanks Umesh -----Original Message----- From: James M. Polk [mailto:jmpolk@cisco.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 3:09 AM To: sip@ietf.org Subject: Fwd: [Sip] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt SIP WG We've submitted the -07 version of the Location Conveyance document based on comments from Shida Shubert and Matt Lepinski, some of which were very good, and well appreciated. Most (all?) were either nits or asking for clarifications/rewrites of a few individual sentences that didn't seem to make sense as written. We think this document is now done and have asked the chairs for WGLC on it. Comments are appreciated James & Brian >To: i-d-announce@ietf.org >From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org >Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:50:02 -0500 >Cc: sip@ietf.org >Subject: [Sip] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt > >A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts=20 >directories. >This draft is a work item of the Session Initiation Protocol Working=20 >Group of the IETF. > > Title : Session Initiation Protocol Location Conveyance > Author(s) : J. Polk, B. Rosen > Filename : draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt > Pages : 35 > Date : 2007-2-13 > >This document defines an extension to the Session Initiation > Protocol (SIP) to convey geographic location information from one > SIP entity to another SIP entity. The extension covers end to end > conveyance as well as location-based routing, where proxy servers > make routing decisions based on the location of the UAC. > >A URL for this Internet-Draft is: >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance- >07.txt > >To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to=20 >i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of=20 >the message. >You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce >to change your subscription settings. > >Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the=20 >username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After=20 >logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get=20 >draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt". > >A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in=20 >http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or=20 >ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > >Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. > >Send a message to: > mailserv@ietf.org. >In the body type: > "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt". > >NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this > feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" > command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or > a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers > exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with > "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split > up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on > how to manipulate these messages. > >Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader=20 >implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the=20 >Internet-Draft. >Content-Type: text/plain >Content-ID: <2007-2-13141256.I-D@ietf.org> > >ENCODING mime >FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt > >07.txt> _______________________________________________ >Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip >This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use=20 >sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use=20 >sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 15 08:36:22 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHgmS-0008AA-DW; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 08:36:12 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHgmR-0008A5-7Z for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 08:36:11 -0500 Received: from smtp.nokia.com ([131.228.20.172] helo=mgw-ext13.nokia.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHgmO-00076o-O1 for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 08:36:11 -0500 Received: from esebh107.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh107.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.143]) by mgw-ext13.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.5/Switch-3.2.5) with ESMTP id l1FDX5L1000595; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 15:33:27 +0200 Received: from esebh104.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.143.34]) by esebh107.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 15 Feb 2007 15:36:00 +0200 Received: from esebh101.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.177]) by esebh104.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 15 Feb 2007 15:35:29 +0200 Received: from [10.162.69.136] ([10.162.69.136]) by esebh101.NOE.Nokia.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 15 Feb 2007 15:36:00 +0200 Message-ID: <45D4619F.60905@nokia.com> Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 15:35:27 +0200 From: Miguel Garcia User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.7 (Windows/20060909) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Neil Hampton Subject: Re: [Sip] Comments on draft-ietf-sip-multiple-refer-01.txt References: <45D29FB8.8010309@hamptonsoftware.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <45D29FB8.8010309@hamptonsoftware.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Feb 2007 13:36:00.0212 (UTC) FILETIME=[3AD63940:01C75106] X-eXpurgate-Category: 1/0 X-eXpurgate-ID: 149371::070215153327-02379BB0-74265FB3/0-0/0-1 X-Nokia-AV: Clean X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c Cc: sip@ietf.org X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Hi Neil: The decision of using an XML document to convey the list of recipients was taking long time ago. At that time, we wanted to re-use as much as possible existing available building blocks, and XML documents for URI-lists were already there. Especially, the first method that was adopted to use a URI-list was INVITE, and there is no Refer-To header in an INVITE request, so the Refer-To wasn't an option. Additionally, we can reuse the same list format for other non-REFER URI-list methods, such as MESSAGE, INVITE, and SUBSCRIBE. These methods do not contain a Refer-To header, as I said. Using XML URI-lists has other advantages, such as the possibility to add attributes, for example to qualify a recipient as a copied (similar to e-mail cc:). The kind of lists that we are managing are fairly simple, so you don't really need to build a general XML parser, if you don't want to do it, but in any case, there are a few open source XML parsers out there. Whether we like it or not, XML is more and more present in our SIPpish lifes. /Miguel Neil Hampton wrote: > I have just come against a call centre application that requires a REFER > to multiple destinations. In my investigations, it appears that > draft-ietf-sip-multiple-refer-01.txt meets what I require from the message. > > After reading the draft, however, I am a little disappointed that it > does not use a SIP header to specify the destinations but instead an XML > body. This seems to me to go a little against the grain - why do we > need another format to specify a call control mechanism? Surely the > current SIP syntax can handle it! > > The addition of XML means that implementations that wish to use REFER in > this way, and previously contained purely a SIP stack, now require an > XML parser with the implications for performance etc. This also makes > this request more difficult to implement on resource limited devices. > > Are there any alternatives in discussion? > A Refer-To header with multiple values seems more appropriate to me; and > if this violates the REFER specification, perhaps add a Refer-Cc header? > -- Miguel A. Garcia tel:+358-50-4804586 sip:miguel.garcia@neonsite.net Nokia Research Center Helsinki, Finland _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 15 09:19:54 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHhRn-0005zY-Ty; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 09:18:55 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHhRm-0005yI-1G for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 09:18:54 -0500 Received: from mail.gmx.net ([213.165.64.20]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHhRj-0004Cz-H8 for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 09:18:54 -0500 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 15 Feb 2007 14:18:50 -0000 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/+nlpIsbX+prdlMhf2z7K1rzqohzd4As5/+bjuq8 gDig== Message-ID: <45D46BC6.3020202@gmx.net> Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:18:46 +0200 From: Hannes Tschofenig User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0b2 (Windows/20070116) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "James M. Polk" Subject: Re: Fwd: [Sip] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt References: <4.3.2.7.2.20070213151729.036fa078@email.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20070213151729.036fa078@email.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6d95a152022472c7d6cdf886a0424dc6 Cc: sip@ietf.org X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Hi James, I have never seen the comments from Shida and Matt for this document. Are you referring to some older discussions? Ciao Hannes James M. Polk wrote: > SIP WG > > We've submitted the -07 version of the Location Conveyance document > based on comments from Shida Shubert and Matt Lepinski, some of which > were very good, and well appreciated. Most (all?) were either nits or > asking for clarifications/rewrites of a few individual sentences that > didn't seem to make sense as written. > > We think this document is now done and have asked the chairs for WGLC > on it. > > Comments are appreciated > > James & Brian > >> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org >> From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org >> Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:50:02 -0500 >> Cc: sip@ietf.org >> Subject: [Sip] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt >> >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >> directories. >> This draft is a work item of the Session Initiation Protocol Working >> Group of the IETF. >> >> Title : Session Initiation Protocol Location >> Conveyance >> Author(s) : J. Polk, B. Rosen >> Filename : draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt >> Pages : 35 >> Date : 2007-2-13 >> >> This document defines an extension to the Session Initiation >> Protocol (SIP) to convey geographic location information from one >> SIP entity to another SIP entity. The extension covers end to end >> conveyance as well as location-based routing, where proxy servers >> make routing decisions based on the location of the UAC. >> >> A URL for this Internet-Draft is: >> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt >> >> >> To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to >> i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of >> the message. >> You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce >> to change your subscription settings. >> >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the >> username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After >> logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then >> "get draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt". >> >> A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in >> http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html >> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >> >> Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. >> >> Send a message to: >> mailserv@ietf.org. >> In the body type: >> "FILE >> /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt". >> >> NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in >> MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this >> feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" >> command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or >> a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail >> readers >> exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with >> "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split >> up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on >> how to manipulate these messages. >> >> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader >> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the >> Internet-Draft. >> Content-Type: text/plain >> Content-ID: <2007-2-13141256.I-D@ietf.org> >> >> ENCODING mime >> FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip >> This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol >> Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip >> Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip > > _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 15 11:25:02 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHjOp-0001NZ-Tz; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 11:23:59 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHjOn-0001NT-UD for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 11:23:57 -0500 Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com ([171.71.176.117]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHjOm-0005Jp-8r for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 11:23:57 -0500 Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 15 Feb 2007 08:23:55 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,176,1170662400"; d="scan'208"; a="113109390:sNHT60846876" Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (sj-core-2.cisco.com [171.71.177.254]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1FGNtvK025671; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 08:23:55 -0800 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l1FGNtGk017486; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 08:23:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from xfe-sjc-212.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.187]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 15 Feb 2007 08:23:55 -0800 Received: from jmpolk-wxp.cisco.com ([171.70.228.212]) by xfe-sjc-212.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 15 Feb 2007 08:23:54 -0800 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 10:23:54 -0600 To: Hannes Tschofenig From: "James M. Polk" Subject: Re: Fwd: [Sip] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt In-Reply-To: <45D46BC6.3020202@gmx.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20070213151729.036fa078@email.cisco.com> <45D46BC6.3020202@gmx.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Feb 2007 16:23:54.0818 (UTC) FILETIME=[AFC51A20:01C7511D] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=4830; t=1171556635; x=1172420635; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim2002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=jmpolk@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22James=20M.=20Polk=22=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20Fwd=3A=20[Sip]=20I-D=20=0A=20=20ACTION=3Adraft-ietf-s ip-location-conveyance-07.txt |Sender:=20; bh=E5PTUxf322fpJBVyk0SoNf7iSydBiq5DSr4gDdk6ixs=; b=jUPP0yAZz48z2PEEsSgt+uwhCRPDYbOXFcRYkwU6WNbeFlYRuwxKZent6z7oZ2QUEL5YAsp2 5o5DsQNfG2bsXKQ6s0KEVcBXPWRKxAX2jvbylwaCEEEkMgrYmPGtaG5f; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2; header.From=jmpolk@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim2002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1676547e4f33b5e63227e9c02bd359e3 Cc: sip@ietf.org X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org At 04:18 PM 2/15/2007 +0200, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: >Hi James, > >I have never seen the comments from Shida and Matt for this >document. Are you referring to some older discussions? Hannes Shida's, I just noticed, was only to the authors, and was Dec 12th, 06 - and his review was for -05 the day I submitted -06, which covered most of what he wanted changed (showing good minds think alike, perhaps?). Matt's was Jan 4th, 07 to the SIP list so these are not so old... James >Ciao >Hannes > >James M. Polk wrote: >>SIP WG >> >>We've submitted the -07 version of the Location Conveyance document >>based on comments from Shida Shubert and Matt Lepinski, some of >>which were very good, and well appreciated. Most (all?) were >>either nits or asking for clarifications/rewrites of a few >>individual sentences that didn't seem to make sense as written. >> >>We think this document is now done and have asked the chairs for WGLC on it. >> >>Comments are appreciated >> >>James & Brian >> >>>To: i-d-announce@ietf.org >>>From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org >>>Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:50:02 -0500 >>>Cc: sip@ietf.org >>>Subject: [Sip] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt >>> >>>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >>>directories. >>>This draft is a work item of the Session Initiation Protocol >>>Working Group of the IETF. >>> >>> Title : Session Initiation Protocol Location Conveyance >>> Author(s) : J. Polk, B. Rosen >>> Filename : draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt >>> Pages : 35 >>> Date : 2007-2-13 >>> >>>This document defines an extension to the Session Initiation >>> Protocol (SIP) to convey geographic location information from one >>> SIP entity to another SIP entity. The extension covers end to end >>> conveyance as well as location-based routing, where proxy servers >>> make routing decisions based on the location of the UAC. >>> >>>A URL for this Internet-Draft is: >>>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt >>> >>> >>>To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to >>>i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of >>>the message. >>>You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce >>>to change your subscription settings. >>> >>>Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the >>>username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After >>>logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then >>>"get draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt". >>> >>>A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in >>>http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html >>>or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >>> >>>Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. >>> >>>Send a message to: >>> mailserv@ietf.org. >>>In the body type: >>> "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt". >>> >>>NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in >>> MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this >>> feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" >>> command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or >>> a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant >>> mail readers >>> exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with >>> "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split >>> up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on >>> how to manipulate these messages. >>> >>>Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader >>>implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the >>>Internet-Draft. >>>Content-Type: text/plain >>>Content-ID: <2007-2-13141256.I-D@ietf.org> >>> >>>ENCODING mime >>>FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip >>>This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol >>>Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip >>>Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip >>This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol >>Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip >>Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 15 19:11:07 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHqfV-0002Dq-CL; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:09:41 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHqfU-0002D0-2p for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:09:40 -0500 Received: from nylon.softarmor.com ([66.135.38.164]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHqfS-0000Ym-Lt for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:09:40 -0500 Received: from [64.101.173.13] ([64.101.173.13]) (authenticated bits=0) by nylon.softarmor.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l1FNDvtF002893 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 15 Feb 2007 17:13:59 -0600 In-Reply-To: <7374777208BDC7449D5620EF94232567014B6FAF@esealmw113.eemea.ericsson.se> References: <7374777208BDC7449D5620EF94232567014B6FAF@esealmw113.eemea.ericsson.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <44B09A57-B37C-4B64-8EEA-8E6ADA5699E1@softarmor.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dean Willis Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:08:14 -0600 To: Christer Holmberg ((JO/LMF)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 31247fb3be228bb596db9127becad0bc Cc: Cullen Jennings , SIP , Juha Heinanen , Rohan Mahy Subject: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org On Jan 8, 2007, at 6:22 AM, Christer Holmberg ((JO/LMF)) wrote: >> >> the mailing list needs to be the authority that determines >> consensus, not the meeting that is attended only by those who >> can afford it. > > Well, then we don't need any hums in the future, do we? :) Of course we do. I find them very amusing and occasionally informative. > Seriously, I do agree, but I (and I am sure others too) have received > comments saying that "there was a concensus in this-or-that IETF > meeting", without the issue really even being discussed on the mailing > list. In some cases things have been discussed on the list, and have > even got some support, but then being turned down at the meeting. > > So, does that mean that all decissions made at meetings should be > agreed > also on the list after that? That's why we report it as "a consensus in the meeting" rather than "a consensus". My default assumption is that strong consensus in a meeting is likely to represent rough list consensus. When there is doubt (raised by a participant, or on a hunch of a Chair), we need to ask the list. That's why I polled. And I'm still digesting the results of that poll. I feel something like an anaconda that accidentally ate a full- grown water buffalo instead of a small pig -- that is, it's hard to digest the results, and I'm not sure what to do about the horns. My personal belief is that this keepalive question is comingled with the UDP and large packet issue. If we fix the congestion-explosion problem of SIP large messages (it's not a reliability thing, it is a Breaks The Internet thing) by effectively deprecating UDP, then we don't really need most of STUN. If that's the direction, or might become the direction, then we probably shouldn't require STUN for TCP. But if we're going to keep a dual-protocol model forever (as Marc has argued for extending to where we can use UDP to kick-start TCP), then we might as well use STUN in both cases. Some people (Frank? Juha? Me??) clearly believe that outbound is where we can draw the dividing line between a dual-protocol past and a TCP future. Some (Cullen? Sean?) believe that we can't draw a dividing line using Outbound, but that we'll eventually cross that line. Others (Marc) believe we cannot even approach such a transition at this time and that we need to heavily revise outbound to account for the perceived limitations of both TCP and UDP. So, what do you people believe? 1) Do you believe that UDP transport of large messages will aggravate the congestion impact of SIP on the Internet (I personally do, just so you know my bias). 2) Will UDP fade away from SIP relatively soon? 3) If UDP will fade away, do we need to burden TCP-only implementations with a more complex keepalive protocol designed originally for UDP? 4) If UDP will fade away, do we need to account for UDP at all in outbound? 5) If UDP will NOT fade away relatively soon, and TCP will not scale relatively soon, then do you believe that we need a transition mechanism so that we can register and keepalive using UDP, then bring up short-lived TCP connections for large messages as Marc's draft proposes? 6) If you agree with #1 but think UDP will not fade away and don't see the need for #5, then I either want to know what sort of alternative you envision, because we're going to need one. -- Dean _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 15 19:27:08 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHqvs-0005bg-99; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:26:36 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHqvq-0005bH-Mw for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:26:34 -0500 Received: from mxsrv4.tranzpeer.net ([202.180.66.217]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHqvm-0005gx-Ju for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:26:34 -0500 Received: from [203.160.127.174] (helo=[192.168.1.10]) by mxsrv4.tranzpeer.net with ESMTP (Exim 4.50) id 1HHqvj-0001N4-Ov for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 13:26:28 +1300 Message-ID: <45D4FA38.5030901@hamptonsoftware.co.uk> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 13:26:32 +1300 From: Neil Hampton Organization: Hampton Software Limited User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: sip@ietf.org Subject: [Fwd: Re: [Sip] Comments on draft-ietf-sip-multiple-refer-01.txt] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 34d35111647d654d033d58d318c0d21a X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Hi, I was hoping to use building blocks too - since we already have and implementation that will turn a Refer-To (or whatever header) into an INVITE (or other) request it would have been very easy to extend this to act on multiple values. According to this draft, however, we must now support two different ways of specifying a destination. While it is no great deal to add an XML parser to resource rich devices (e.g. a PC) it can have a significant impact on resource limited/restricted devices. >From your response, I am not sure that I understand how XML documents for URI lists can be used for non-REFER methods. You mention its use for the INVITE and MESSAGE methods - surely these already have bodies (i.e. SDP and the message). What is wrong with re-using the method used by, for example, a '300 Multiple Choices' response which specifies a list of URIs in Contact headers? You also mention the ability to add attributes as an advantage of XML - this does also exists within the SIP format in the form of parameters. Is this not sufficient? Normally when looking at a protocol I would expect the request for multiple elements to be an extension of the request for one element. >From a reverse engineering case, after seeing a REFER message with an XML body containing a list URIs I would expect the case for a REFER with one element to be the same except there would only be one element in the XML body. This is not the case (although it would probably work on devices that accept this extension). I was expecting something simpler, along the lines of a SIP extension that implied multiple Refer-To headers are allowed in a REFER message. Personally I think that XML is a bit of a bandwagon that gets used as a 'solution for everyone' format (bit like ADA ;)). It has its place for structured data, documents and so on; but I don't think it should be mixed with other protocols in this way. I think that SIP should be used for the communications and getting the data to the right place and the XML should be left for document exchange, user directories, etc. Regards, Neil Hampton. Hampton Software Ltd. Tel: +64 9 974 3601 Mobile: +64 2102 344909 http://www.hamptonsoftware.co.uk Hampton Software Limited is a company incorporated in England and Wales (Company Number 5563994) and has its registered office at Hatherley House, Bisley Green, Bisley, Surrey. GU24 9EW. Miguel Garcia wrote: > Hi Neil: > > The decision of using an XML document to convey the list of recipients > was taking long time ago. At that time, we wanted to re-use as much as > possible existing available building blocks, and XML documents for > URI-lists were already there. Especially, the first method that was > adopted to use a URI-list was INVITE, and there is no Refer-To header > in an INVITE request, so the Refer-To wasn't an option. Additionally, > we can reuse the same list format for other non-REFER URI-list > methods, such as MESSAGE, INVITE, and SUBSCRIBE. These methods do not > contain a Refer-To header, as I said. > > Using XML URI-lists has other advantages, such as the possibility to > add attributes, for example to qualify a recipient as a copied > (similar to e-mail cc:). > > The kind of lists that we are managing are fairly simple, so you don't > really need to build a general XML parser, if you don't want to do it, > but in any case, there are a few open source XML parsers out there. > Whether we like it or not, XML is more and more present in our SIPpish > lifes. > > /Miguel > > > > Neil Hampton wrote: > -- Regards, Neil Hampton. Hampton Software Ltd. Tel: +64 9 974 3601 Mobile: +64 2102 344909 http://www.hamptonsoftware.co.uk Hampton Software Limited is a company incorporated in England and Wales (Company Number 5563994) and has its registered office at Hatherley House, Bisley Green, Bisley, Surrey. GU24 9EW. _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 15 19:32:32 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHr1O-000286-If; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:32:18 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHr1M-00027w-S3 for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:32:16 -0500 Received: from celine.siteprotect.com ([64.26.0.6]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHr1K-0000CP-It for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:32:16 -0500 Received: from cornfed (c-24-9-79-73.hsd1.co.comcast.net [24.9.79.73]) by celine.siteprotect.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l1G0UNZ25064; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:30:23 -0600 From: "Frank W. Miller" To: "'Dean Willis'" , "'Christer Holmberg \(\(JO/LMF\)\)'" Subject: RE: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 17:30:26 -0700 Message-ID: <010201c75161$a8bf10c0$0202fea9@cornfed> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: <44B09A57-B37C-4B64-8EEA-8E6ADA5699E1@softarmor.com> Importance: Normal X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c3a18ef96977fc9bcc21a621cbf1174b Cc: 'Cullen Jennings' , 'SIP' , 'Juha Heinanen' , 'Rohan Mahy' X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Inline... -----Original Message----- From: Dean Willis [mailto:dean.willis@softarmor.com] Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 5:08 PM To: Christer Holmberg ((JO/LMF)) Cc: Cullen Jennings; SIP; Juha Heinanen; Rohan Mahy Subject: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) On Jan 8, 2007, at 6:22 AM, Christer Holmberg ((JO/LMF)) wrote: Some people (Frank? Juha? Me??) clearly believe that outbound is where we can draw the dividing line between a dual-protocol past and a TCP future. FM: My belief is that UDP cannot be deprecated in -outbound. However, I do believe that it is well past time to begin a SIP 3.0 version which would be what you proposed earlier and that at that time we should deprecate UDP for transport. 1) Do you believe that UDP transport of large messages will aggravate the congestion impact of SIP on the Internet (I personally do, just so you know my bias). FM: I think this issue will go away once we drop UDP. Its not clear to me that the percentage of traffic on the Internet that is SIP even warrants time thinking about this issue but like I said, it will never come up again once we go to TCP. 2) Will UDP fade away from SIP relatively soon? FM: It will only fade quickly if its deprecated. There is so much implementation out there that makes use of UDP that will not go away unless its forced to go away and deprecation will force that. 3) If UDP will fade away, do we need to burden TCP-only implementations with a more complex keepalive protocol designed originally for UDP? FM: No. 4) If UDP will fade away, do we need to account for UDP at all in outbound? FM: We need to account for UDP in outbound because I don't think we can deprecate UDP in outbound. I'm just not sure that any of the solutions that are in outbound are going to be universal enough to solve the problem. Where does that leave us? I guess I think that outbound should basically sketch potential solutions to the problem for UDP, publish it then quickly deprecate the whole thing by doing 3.0 with TCP only. 5) If UDP will NOT fade away relatively soon, and TCP will not scale relatively soon, then do you believe that we need a transition mechanism so that we can register and keepalive using UDP, then bring up short-lived TCP connections for large messages as Marc's draft proposes? FM: Lets try to get UDP to fade quickly... 6) If you agree with #1 but think UDP will not fade away and don't see the need for #5, then I either want to know what sort of alternative you envision, because we're going to need one. FM: If it were up to me (which thankfully its not), I would publish outbound essentially unchanged as a BCP, the immediately begin work on 3.0. I think 3.0 should scour 3261 under the assumption that we are TCP only as its basic design tenet. FM _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 15 19:57:38 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHrOf-00053R-Tp; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:56:21 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHrOe-00053M-3u for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:56:20 -0500 Received: from zrtps0kn.nortel.com ([47.140.192.55]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHrOc-0008Na-TT for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:56:20 -0500 Received: from zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com (zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com [47.103.123.71]) by zrtps0kn.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id l1G0uBQ19073; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:56:12 -0500 (EST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:56:10 -0600 Message-ID: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F36E0A2@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <010201c75161$a8bf10c0$0202fea9@cornfed> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) Thread-Index: AcdRYgYK35foldS2Sn26noPuxMDJSAAAOoEg From: "Francois Audet" To: "Frank W. Miller" , "Dean Willis" , "Christer Holmberg \(\(JO/LMF\)\)" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Cc: Cullen Jennings , SIP , Juha Heinanen , Rohan Mahy X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org The question is not "do we deprecate UDP in outbound".=20 The question is do we define procedures for UDP and TCP in outbound. Or just TCP. You could still do UDP, but it may not work with outbound (if we choose not to support it). There is no need to wait for a SIP 3.0 for that. > -----Original Message----- > From: Frank W. Miller [mailto:fwmiller@cornfed.com]=20 > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 16:30 > To: 'Dean Willis'; 'Christer Holmberg ((JO/LMF))' > Cc: 'Cullen Jennings'; 'SIP'; 'Juha Heinanen'; 'Rohan Mahy' > Subject: RE: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound=20 > (retitled thread) > > FM: My belief is that UDP cannot be deprecated in -outbound. =20 > However, I > do believe that it is well past time to begin a SIP 3.0 version which > would be what you proposed earlier and that at that time we should > deprecate UDP for transport. _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 15 20:01:59 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHrTu-0000KR-HO; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 20:01:46 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHrTt-0000KC-3O for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 20:01:45 -0500 Received: from zcars04f.nortel.com ([47.129.242.57]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHrTr-0000n0-N7 for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 20:01:45 -0500 Received: from zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com (zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com [47.103.123.71]) by zcars04f.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id l1G11da04065; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 20:01:39 -0500 (EST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:01:37 -0600 Message-ID: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F36E0C6@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <44B09A57-B37C-4B64-8EEA-8E6ADA5699E1@softarmor.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) Thread-Index: AcdRXzWWx0n3eqEAQF6dZ6NsLBbbswABiZog From: "Francois Audet" To: "Dean Willis" , "Christer Holmberg \(\(JO/LMF\)\)" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 67c1ea29f88502ef6a32ccec927970f0 Cc: Cullen Jennings , SIP , Juha Heinanen , Rohan Mahy X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Dean, Why doesn't the device just detect if it's behind a NAT, using STUN or whatever. If it determines that it is behind a NAT, then it uses TCP and outbound. The device is free to use UDP when not behind a NAT.=20 PS: missing from your whole analysis is the fact that if you want to use a secure transport, then TLS/TCP or TLS/SCTP it is. Considering that we should encourage secure implementations, I find this obsession with optimizing our design for the non-secure transport rather bizarre. > -----Original Message----- > From: Dean Willis [mailto:dean.willis@softarmor.com]=20 > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 16:08 > To: Christer Holmberg ((JO/LMF)) > Cc: Cullen Jennings; SIP; Juha Heinanen; Rohan Mahy > Subject: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) >=20 >=20 > On Jan 8, 2007, at 6:22 AM, Christer Holmberg ((JO/LMF)) wrote: >=20 > >> > >> the mailing list needs to be the authority that determines=20 > consensus,=20 > >> not the meeting that is attended only by those who can afford it. > > > > Well, then we don't need any hums in the future, do we? :) >=20 > Of course we do. I find them very amusing and occasionally=20 > informative. >=20 > > Seriously, I do agree, but I (and I am sure others too)=20 > have received=20 > > comments saying that "there was a concensus in this-or-that IETF=20 > > meeting", without the issue really even being discussed on=20 > the mailing=20 > > list. In some cases things have been discussed on the list,=20 > and have=20 > > even got some support, but then being turned down at the meeting. > > > > So, does that mean that all decissions made at meetings should be=20 > > agreed also on the list after that? >=20 >=20 > That's why we report it as "a consensus in the meeting"=20 > rather than "a consensus". My default assumption is that=20 > strong consensus in a meeting is likely to represent rough=20 > list consensus. When there is doubt (raised by a participant,=20 > or on a hunch of a Chair), we need to ask the list. >=20 > That's why I polled. And I'm still digesting the results of=20 > that poll. I feel something like an anaconda that=20 > accidentally ate a full- grown water buffalo instead of a=20 > small pig -- that is, it's hard to digest the results, and=20 > I'm not sure what to do about the horns. >=20 > My personal belief is that this keepalive question is=20 > comingled with the UDP and large packet issue. If we fix the=20 > congestion-explosion problem of SIP large messages (it's not=20 > a reliability thing, it is a Breaks The Internet thing) by=20 > effectively deprecating UDP, then we don't really need most=20 > of STUN. If that's the direction, or might become the=20 > direction, then we probably shouldn't require STUN for TCP.=20 > But if we're going to keep a dual-protocol model forever (as=20 > Marc has argued for extending to where we can use UDP to=20 > kick-start TCP), then we might as well use STUN in both cases. >=20 > Some people (Frank? Juha? Me??) clearly believe that outbound=20 > is where we can draw the dividing line between a=20 > dual-protocol past and a TCP future. >=20 > Some (Cullen? Sean?) believe that we can't draw a dividing=20 > line using Outbound, but that we'll eventually cross that line. >=20 > Others (Marc) believe we cannot even approach such a=20 > transition at this time and that we need to heavily revise=20 > outbound to account for the perceived limitations of both TCP and UDP. >=20 > So, what do you people believe? >=20 > 1) Do you believe that UDP transport of large messages will=20 > aggravate the congestion impact of SIP on the Internet (I=20 > personally do, just so you know my bias). >=20 > 2) Will UDP fade away from SIP relatively soon? >=20 > 3) If UDP will fade away, do we need to burden TCP-only=20 > implementations with a more complex keepalive protocol=20 > designed originally for UDP? >=20 > 4) If UDP will fade away, do we need to account for UDP at=20 > all in outbound? >=20 > 5) If UDP will NOT fade away relatively soon, and TCP will=20 > not scale relatively soon, then do you believe that we need a=20 > transition mechanism so that we can register and keepalive=20 > using UDP, then bring up short-lived TCP connections for=20 > large messages as Marc's draft proposes? >=20 > 6) If you agree with #1 but think UDP will not fade away and=20 > don't see the need for #5, then I either want to know what=20 > sort of alternative you envision, because we're going to need one. >=20 > -- > Dean >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use=20 > sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip=20 > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip >=20 _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 15 20:07:30 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHrZ4-0004tl-Ga; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 20:07:06 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHrZ2-0004sJ-2m for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 20:07:04 -0500 Received: from sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com ([171.71.176.72] helo=sj-iport-3.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHrZ0-0001N6-Pr for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 20:07:04 -0500 Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 15 Feb 2007 17:07:02 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,178,1170662400"; d="scan'208"; a="464896909:sNHT52296472" Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (sj-core-5.cisco.com [171.71.177.238]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1G171e7004882; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 17:07:01 -0800 Received: from [128.107.139.50] (dhcp-128-107-139-50.cisco.com [128.107.139.50]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l1G16oUw013584; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 17:06:50 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F36E0C6@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> References: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F36E0C6@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <140509CA-FF86-4138-BEF9-4D0D001C53E4@cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Cullen Jennings Subject: Re: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 17:06:44 -0800 To: "Francois Audet" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=619; t=1171588021; x=1172452021; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim2002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fluffy@cisco.com; z=From:=20Cullen=20Jennings=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[Sip]=20Followup=3A=20Pool=20on=20=20Update=20of=20ou tbound=20(retitled=20thread) |Sender:=20; bh=3/imW9anuRcrLrnyA0H9W2+VIZrD+laLaQm2a70tyAI=; b=1UnEZWfxaqSz20n8AfP20CgKZnSSMtyZL6SfH0Am7vNtjgxuIUJls1pgUJtVXkMJspL+k/oX 9R66lBFKvvGbM9qX4zOJ7iXweTApQ+p639llMO3I5BCEfxKJziAo/PJV; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2; header.From=fluffy@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim2002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Cc: SIP , Rohan Mahy , Juha Heinanen , "Christer Holmberg \(\(JO/LMF\)\)" , Dean Willis X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org On Feb 15, 2007, at 5:01 PM, Francois Audet wrote: > PS: missing from your whole analysis is the fact that if you want > to use > a secure > transport, then TLS/TCP or TLS/SCTP it is. Considering that we should > encourage > secure implementations, I find this obsession with optimizing our > design > for the > non-secure transport rather bizarre. We closed this last time by pointing out there is a draft and working implementations that do SIP over DTLS. The security issues is not at all coupled with the UDP/TCP issue. Good to see we are going to get to repeat all this conversation. _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 15 20:17:19 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHriD-0004X5-92; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 20:16:33 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHriC-0004W5-11 for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 20:16:32 -0500 Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com ([171.71.176.117]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHqXQ-0004Vh-Mc for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:01:35 -0500 Received: from sj-dkim-4.cisco.com ([171.71.179.196]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 15 Feb 2007 16:00:08 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,178,1170662400"; d="scan'208"; a="113256718:sNHT127353897" Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (sj-core-1.cisco.com [171.71.177.237]) by sj-dkim-4.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1G006iP013187; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:00:06 -0800 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l1G006Dk013220; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:00:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.174]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:00:06 -0800 Received: from jmpolk-wxp.cisco.com ([171.70.228.212]) by xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:00:05 -0800 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 17:59:57 -0600 To: "Umesh Sharma" , From: "James M. Polk" Subject: RE: [Sip] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20070213151729.036fa078@email.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Feb 2007 00:00:05.0740 (UTC) FILETIME=[6A1C5AC0:01C7515D] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=9630; t=1171584006; x=1172448006; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim4002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=jmpolk@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22James=20M.=20Polk=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20[Sip]=20I-D=20=0A=20=20ACTION=3Adraft-ietf-sip-locati on-conveyance-07.txt=20 |Sender:=20; bh=wXdQ7SCEtNvXjH6J8Qrs4IwlzMM4g68fd5rR3+M3DeA=; b=rvSx94BIQnne6niNLJN1CnQwJRtFDmcc3oGrCw67aOo47eb4rxcE+ANmIaWq4lhBhobAqmVb JWLTPKShGjXKeWZHPV8vd6o+R7DAx9IBb70hotrVy3wVfOgzmzq+3xcV; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-4; header.From=jmpolk@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim4002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f0b5a4216bfa030ed8a6f68d1833f8ae Cc: X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Hey Thanks for the review. Please see my comments in-line At 07:33 AM 2/15/2007, Umesh Sharma wrote: >Pls find comments: > >1. Introduction > >> It defines a "target" as the entity whose location is being >transmitted, in this case, it is > >>the user agent's (UA) location. >Target is probably only the "User Agent(UA)" (or the physical box in >which UA is present). I reworded the first part of the second paragraph to: "Geographic location in the IETF is discussed in RFC 3693 (Geopriv Requirements) [RFC3693]. It defines a "target" as the entity whose location is being sought. In this case, this is the user agent's (UA) location. " > >> ... SIP request, where the choice of the next hop (and usually, the > >> outgoing Request URI) is determined by the location of the UAC which > >> is in the message by-value or by-reference > >May consider rewording like >"... is determined by the location of the UAC which may be conveyed in >the message." >or ".. is determined by the location of the UAC which may be present as >by-vlaue or by-reference." >etc. Here, I am reading that you want the text to change from a case in which location is in the message, to one in which location *may* be in the message. While I agree completely that location can only be a MAY in general, for location based routing (the subject of this part of the text, we should indicate that location is present in order to perform this location based routing. Do you agree? >3.1 > > >> Since body parts may not be inserted by a proxy server, >location-by-value > >> cannot be inserted by a proxy. >A UA's proxy or server would like to insert it >by-value, where a particular Location Server may not be globally >accessible ? Here, I am not sure I understand your question. RFC 3261 does not allow SIP Proxies from inserting message bodies, so even if the proxy knows where the UAC is, it cannot insert this location information by-value. The terminology "Location Server" in Geopriv is the IP entity that builds the PIDF-LO and is first to transmit it. Since proxies cannot insert location by-value, proxies cannot be Location Servers. UACs can be location servers, and B2BUAs can be location servers. Within all this, you mention the location server "may not be globally accessible". This tells me you are actually referring to the server where the location-by-reference URI points to (i.e. where the UAC's PIDF-LO is - waiting to be accessed - which is called dereferencing). This is not a "Location Server" in Geopriv, and RFC 3693 defines this. This document already states the dereference server needs to be accessible if location is conveyed by-reference, otherwise location is not conveyed (which is the point of this extension). > >> The "inserted-by" parameter has values of "endpoint" or "server", > >> indicative of which entry ... >indicative of which entity are you taking issue with the word "indicative"? If so, how about me changing this to "... indicating which entity..." > > >>If a SIP message is routed within the network based on the location > >> contained within that message, the "message-routed-on-this-uri".. > >"within the network" -- the scope of network is not clear. fair -- how about I take "within the network" out of the sentence? >3.2 > >>contain one of two types of URIs:contain of the two types of URIs. > >>Discussing location using the PUBLISH Request Method out of scope for >this document >]is[ out of scope for this document thanks, changed >3.5 > >> Appearance of the option tag in the Require header is a request for >location to > >> be conveyed. > From rfc3261 it is inferred that the UAS needs to understand the >conveyance information coming from UAC/etc. >Maybe an emergency call where there are two PSAPs where call could be >forwarded, the one who understands the Geo-LocationInfo ulitmately gets >the call. I think this is outside the scope of this doc. This topic should be asked in ECRIT, as they have 2 docs defining the devices BCP and the Emergency calling Framework. Hopefully there will be an emergency services network in front of the IP enabled PSAP to route the call to a PSAP that can understand this extension. That said, I believe what will happen is most (if not all?) IP based PSAPs understand this extension from the beginning. NENA and EMTEL are telling all PSAPs in North America and the EU to do this. Several other areas of the world are being told to do this also. Of course we cannot be assured every IP enabled PSAP in the world will, but it's likely to be based on something from the IETF, the ITU-T, 3GPP or one of the other SDOs that attended last year's Emergency SDO conference that agreed to this general mechanism to convey location to a PSAP from a SIP phone. >4.1 > >>...indicates the content-ID location [RFC2392] within the multipart > >> message body of were location information is > >message body of ]where[ location information is Got it, thanks! James >Thanks >Umesh > >-----Original Message----- >From: James M. Polk [mailto:jmpolk@cisco.com] >Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 3:09 AM >To: sip@ietf.org >Subject: Fwd: [Sip] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt > > >SIP WG > >We've submitted the -07 version of the Location Conveyance document >based on comments from Shida Shubert and Matt Lepinski, some of which >were very good, and well appreciated. Most (all?) were either nits or >asking for clarifications/rewrites of a few individual sentences that >didn't seem to make sense as written. > >We think this document is now done and have asked the chairs for WGLC on >it. > >Comments are appreciated > >James & Brian > > >To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > >From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org > >Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:50:02 -0500 > >Cc: sip@ietf.org > >Subject: [Sip] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt > > > >A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > >directories. > >This draft is a work item of the Session Initiation Protocol Working > >Group of the IETF. > > > > Title : Session Initiation Protocol Location >Conveyance > > Author(s) : J. Polk, B. Rosen > > Filename : draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt > > Pages : 35 > > Date : 2007-2-13 > > > >This document defines an extension to the Session Initiation > > Protocol (SIP) to convey geographic location information from one > > SIP entity to another SIP entity. The extension covers end to end > > conveyance as well as location-based routing, where proxy servers > > make routing decisions based on the location of the UAC. > > > >A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance- > >07.txt > > > >To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to > >i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of > >the message. > >You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce > >to change your subscription settings. > > > >Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the > >username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After > >logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get > >draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt". > > > >A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in > >http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or > >ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > > >Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. > > > >Send a message to: > > mailserv@ietf.org. > >In the body type: > > "FILE >/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt". > > > >NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > > MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this > > feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" > > command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" >or > > a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail >readers > > exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with > > "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been >split > > up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation >on > > how to manipulate these messages. > > > >Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader > >implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the > >Internet-Draft. > >Content-Type: text/plain > >Content-ID: <2007-2-13141256.I-D@ietf.org> > > > >ENCODING mime > >FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt > > > > nce->07.txt> _______________________________________________ > >Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > >This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use > >sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use > >sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip > >_______________________________________________ >Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip >This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use >sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use >sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 15 20:52:13 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHsGL-0006Wz-Ej; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 20:51:49 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHsGK-0006Ra-7s for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 20:51:48 -0500 Received: from rtp-iport-2.cisco.com ([64.102.122.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHsGI-00066a-C1 for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 20:51:48 -0500 Received: from rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com ([64.102.121.159]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 15 Feb 2007 20:51:46 -0500 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,178,1170651600"; d="scan'208"; a="114055383:sNHT61474052" Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-core-1.cisco.com [64.102.124.12]) by rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1G1pk34006678; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 20:51:46 -0500 Received: from xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-211.cisco.com [64.102.31.102]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l1G1phVT012361; Thu, 15 Feb 2007 20:51:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.38]) by xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 15 Feb 2007 20:51:43 -0500 Received: from [161.44.174.118] ([161.44.174.118]) by xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 15 Feb 2007 20:51:42 -0500 Message-ID: <45D50E2B.4020400@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 20:51:39 -0500 From: Paul Kyzivat User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Francois Audet Subject: Re: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) References: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F36E0A2@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F36E0A2@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Feb 2007 01:51:42.0343 (UTC) FILETIME=[0198E170:01C7516D] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1406; t=1171590706; x=1172454706; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=pkyzivat@cisco.com; z=From:=20Paul=20Kyzivat=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[Sip]=20Followup=3A=20Pool=20on=20=20Update=20of=20ou tbound=20(retitled=20thread) |Sender:=20 |To:=20Francois=20Audet=20; bh=RxH8+b/URiENQSyORmgeNlolqojNOmqLrF4B0ThoYnQ=; b=U275ADFzvMiHyqmy6KlULNTR4whqcmXDe43x0F3ha4OCk0ayRsN1pAJvUB5kSLZbZGybbg4L x78qhS3Bgs/g3HI6boOd45IupXGTbYtp/431u77UY1zzB0pfJoEnal4t; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-2; header.From=pkyzivat@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim2001 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb Cc: Cullen Jennings , Rohan Mahy , SIP , Dean Willis , Juha Heinanen , "Frank W. Miller" , "Christer Holmberg \(\(JO/LMF\)\)" X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Francois Audet wrote: > The question is not "do we deprecate UDP in outbound". > > The question is do we define procedures for UDP and TCP in outbound. Or > just TCP. > > You could still do UDP, but it may not work with outbound (if we choose > not > to support it). I agree with Francois here. Providing outbound for TCP, and not for UDP, might be the incentive that some need to move to TCP. Paul > There is no need to wait for a SIP 3.0 for that. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Frank W. Miller [mailto:fwmiller@cornfed.com] >> Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 16:30 >> To: 'Dean Willis'; 'Christer Holmberg ((JO/LMF))' >> Cc: 'Cullen Jennings'; 'SIP'; 'Juha Heinanen'; 'Rohan Mahy' >> Subject: RE: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound >> (retitled thread) >> >> FM: My belief is that UDP cannot be deprecated in -outbound. >> However, I >> do believe that it is well past time to begin a SIP 3.0 version which >> would be what you proposed earlier and that at that time we should >> deprecate UDP for transport. > > _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip > _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From bebacdb@cardiocomm.com Fri Feb 16 02:52:48 2007 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHxtg-0000MK-DP for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 02:52:48 -0500 Received: from dslb-088-068-042-214.pools.arcor-ip.net ([88.68.42.214] helo=mdaine-wj3ge2vk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHxtf-0005nz-0c for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 02:52:48 -0500 From: Richard To: Subject: Official Printed Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 07:52:47 -0060 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1807 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1807 X-Spam-Score: 4.8 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Idol special I was a kid, pleasure--you may feel slightly that was the best career choice for me. ● CHINA BIOLIFE ENTERP (CBFE.PK) ● New stock for U!!! 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------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C751CA.D3394D20-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 16 04:16:08 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHzAI-0005cw-H5; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 04:14:02 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHzAG-0005cp-KT for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 04:14:01 -0500 Received: from smtp.nokia.com ([131.228.20.171] helo=mgw-ext12.nokia.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHzAF-0003nu-66 for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 04:14:00 -0500 Received: from esebh105.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh105.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.211]) by mgw-ext12.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.5/Switch-3.2.5) with ESMTP id l1G9Agga017908; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:10:43 +0200 Received: from esebh103.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.143.33]) by esebh105.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:12:44 +0200 Received: from esebh101.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.177]) by esebh103.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:12:44 +0200 Received: from mgw-int02.ntc.nokia.com ([172.21.143.97]) by esebh101.NOE.Nokia.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:12:44 +0200 Received: from kusti.research.nokia.com (mgw.research.nokia.com [172.21.56.13]) by mgw-int02.ntc.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.5/Switch-3.2.5) with ESMTP id l1G9AKLK023321; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:10:20 +0200 Received: from [172.21.40.99] (esdhcp04099.research.nokia.com [172.21.40.99]) by kusti.research.nokia.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EF7893B77; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:12:39 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <45D57586.2050600@nokia.com> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:12:38 +0200 From: Aki Niemi User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20070103) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ext Francois Audet Subject: Re: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) References: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F36E0C6@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F36E0C6@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Feb 2007 09:12:44.0315 (UTC) FILETIME=[9E295EB0:01C751AA] X-eXpurgate-Category: 1/0 X-eXpurgate-ID: 149371::070216111043-441EABB0-69685DE7/0-0/0-1 X-Nokia-AV: Clean X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Cc: Cullen Jennings , Rohan Mahy , SIP , Dean Willis , Juha Heinanen , "Christer Holmberg \(\(JO/LMF\)\)" X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org ext Francois Audet wrote: > Dean, > > Why doesn't the device just detect if it's behind a NAT, using STUN or > whatever. > > If it determines that it is behind a NAT, then it uses TCP and outbound. > > The device is free to use UDP when not behind a NAT. The problem is, as pointed out several times here, that you can't ever *reliably* detect being behind a middlebox that breaks UDP. NATs are only one type of such a box, firewalls generally are much worse because you can't detect them simply by making a STUN binding request. That said, this is a problem that only affects the UDP-only implementations. The TCP-only implementations have a provable just-works scheme to get around these problems. Cheers, Aki _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 16 04:26:21 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHzLr-0004Jh-Fl; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 04:25:59 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHzLq-0004Jc-2H for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 04:25:58 -0500 Received: from smtp.nokia.com ([131.228.20.172] helo=mgw-ext13.nokia.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHzLo-00061a-Jj for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 04:25:58 -0500 Received: from esebh107.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh107.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.143]) by mgw-ext13.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.5/Switch-3.2.5) with ESMTP id l1G9M2nW001405; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:22:12 +0200 Received: from esebh103.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.143.33]) by esebh107.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:24:41 +0200 Received: from esebh101.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.177]) by esebh103.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:24:41 +0200 Received: from mgw-int01.ntc.nokia.com ([172.21.143.96]) by esebh101.NOE.Nokia.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:24:41 +0200 Received: from kusti.research.nokia.com (mgw.research.nokia.com [172.21.56.13]) by mgw-int01.ntc.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.5/Switch-3.2.5) with ESMTP id l1G9LHgg006341; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:21:18 +0200 Received: from [172.21.40.99] (esdhcp04099.research.nokia.com [172.21.40.99]) by kusti.research.nokia.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3182A93B80; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:24:39 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <45D57856.1040203@nokia.com> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:24:38 +0200 From: Aki Niemi User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20070103) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ext Dean Willis Subject: Re: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) References: <7374777208BDC7449D5620EF94232567014B6FAF@esealmw113.eemea.ericsson.se> <44B09A57-B37C-4B64-8EEA-8E6ADA5699E1@softarmor.com> In-Reply-To: <44B09A57-B37C-4B64-8EEA-8E6ADA5699E1@softarmor.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Feb 2007 09:24:41.0850 (UTC) FILETIME=[49D885A0:01C751AC] X-Nokia-AV: Clean X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e1e48a527f609d1be2bc8d8a70eb76cb Cc: Cullen Jennings , SIP , Juha Heinanen , Rohan Mahy , "Christer Holmberg \(\(JO/LMF\)\)" X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org ext Dean Willis wrote: > So, what do you people believe? > > 1) Do you believe that UDP transport of large messages will aggravate > the congestion impact of SIP on the Internet (I personally do, just so > you know my bias). Yes. > 2) Will UDP fade away from SIP relatively soon? Yes. > 3) If UDP will fade away, do we need to burden TCP-only implementations > with a more complex keepalive protocol designed originally for UDP? Definitely not. > 4) If UDP will fade away, do we need to account for UDP at all in outbound? No, but I'm fine with text that Rohan proposed for outbound many moons ago, basically saying that you can insist on using UDP, but all bets are off as to whether or not it will actually work in the Internet. > 5) If UDP will NOT fade away relatively soon, and TCP will not scale > relatively soon, then do you believe that we need a transition mechanism > so that we can register and keepalive using UDP, then bring up > short-lived TCP connections for large messages as Marc's draft proposes? Iff I thought those assumptions were actually reasonable (which I don't) I'd probably say yes. But since I don't, I don't. > 6) If you agree with #1 but think UDP will not fade away and don't see > the need for #5, then I either want to know what sort of alternative you > envision, because we're going to need one. See answer for #4. Cheers, Aki _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 16 04:47:41 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHzfz-0004pp-12; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 04:46:47 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHzfx-0004pN-Is for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 04:46:45 -0500 Received: from www.implementers.org ([69.55.225.91]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HHzfv-0002BL-6Y for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 04:46:45 -0500 Received: by www.implementers.org (Postfix, from userid 1006) id 7B0B23A0210B; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 01:46:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.1.28.3] (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www.implementers.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2BBF3A02109; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 01:46:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <45D57D79.2000204@acm.org> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 01:46:33 -0800 From: Marc Petit-Huguenin User-Agent: Icedove 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061220) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dean Willis Subject: Re: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) References: <7374777208BDC7449D5620EF94232567014B6FAF@esealmw113.eemea.ericsson.se> <44B09A57-B37C-4B64-8EEA-8E6ADA5699E1@softarmor.com> In-Reply-To: <44B09A57-B37C-4B64-8EEA-8E6ADA5699E1@softarmor.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0fa76816851382eb71b0a882ccdc29ac Cc: Cullen Jennings , SIP , Juha Heinanen , Rohan Mahy , "Christer Holmberg \(\(JO/LMF\)\)" X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Inline. Dean Willis wrote: > [...] >> My personal belief is that this keepalive question is comingled >> with the > UDP and large packet issue. If we fix the congestion-explosion > problem of SIP large messages (it's not a reliability thing, it is a > Breaks The Internet thing) by effectively deprecating UDP, then we > don't really need most of STUN. If that's the direction, or might > become the direction, then we probably shouldn't require STUN for > TCP. But if we're going to keep a dual-protocol model forever (as > Marc has argued for extending to where we can use UDP to kick-start > TCP), then we might as well use STUN in both cases. > > Some people (Frank? Juha? Me??) clearly believe that outbound is > where we can draw the dividing line between a dual-protocol past and > a TCP future. > > Some (Cullen? Sean?) believe that we can't draw a dividing line using > Outbound, but that we'll eventually cross that line. > > Others (Marc) believe we cannot even approach such a transition at > this time and that we need to heavily revise outbound to account for > the perceived limitations of both TCP and UDP. > > So, what do you people believe? > > 1) Do you believe that UDP transport of large messages will aggravate > the congestion impact of SIP on the Internet (I personally do, just > so you know my bias). Yes > > 2) Will UDP fade away from SIP relatively soon? No > > 3) If UDP will fade away, do we need to burden TCP-only > implementations with a more complex keepalive protocol designed > originally for UDP? UDP will not fade away, but TCP-only implementations should use CRLF. UDP+TCP implementations (there is no such thing as a SIP UDP-only implementation) should support STUN and CRLF for TCP. > > 4) If UDP will fade away, do we need to account for UDP at all in > outbound? UDP will not fade away. > > 5) If UDP will NOT fade away relatively soon, and TCP will not scale > relatively soon, then do you believe that we need a transition > mechanism so that we can register and keepalive using UDP, then bring > up short-lived TCP connections for large messages as Marc's draft > proposes? Yes > > 6) If you agree with #1 but think UDP will not fade away and don't > see the need for #5, then I either want to know what sort of > alternative you envision, because we're going to need one. > -- Marc Petit-Huguenin [ ] Home: marc@petit-huguenin.org [ RFC1855-compliant space for rent] Work: marc@8x8.com [ ] _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 16 05:09:20 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HI00y-00069n-2J; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 05:08:28 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HI00v-00069e-HY for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 05:08:25 -0500 Received: from www.implementers.org ([69.55.225.91]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HI00u-0006Ik-90 for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 05:08:25 -0500 Received: by www.implementers.org (Postfix, from userid 1006) id 8494D3A0210B; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 02:08:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.1.28.3] (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www.implementers.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 060363A02109; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 02:07:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <45D5827C.7090302@acm.org> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 02:07:56 -0800 From: Marc Petit-Huguenin User-Agent: Icedove 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061220) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Thomas Subject: Re: [Sip] I-D: Preventing Fragmentation forClientInitiated Connections in the Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) References: <8B1D53AEF7B03449A6D3771B3B7F850F031D3DC4@esebe103.NOE.Nokia.com> <45801BBD.3060307@acm.org> <45802084.20208@it.su.se> <45802F76.8030803@acm.org> <953beacc0612131543l2afce06cxbdfdd5c0253da458@mail.gmail.com> <45809F4F.3050309@acm.org> <4580A2AA.2030104@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <4580A2AA.2030104@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Cc: sip@ietf.org, Fredrik Thulin , audet@nortel.com, aki.niemi@nokia.com X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Michael Thomas wrote: > Marc Petit-Huguenin wrote: >> So there is 3 possible combinations of transports for SIP; UDP alone, >> permanent TCP and UDP + temporary TCP. I excluded UDP alone, because of >> the fragmentation problem. So we wrote two tests with the same kind of >> transactions an endpoints would do, the first test with a permanent TCP >> connection, and the second test with a mix of UDP and temporary TCP. >> The TCP/UDP mixed test, even if it have to create TCP connections and >> close them each time a SIP message bigger than the MTU have to be sent >> or received, was using half the resources of the test with the permanent >> TCP connection. And the UDP+TCP test was using the additional mechanism >> to request the opening of the TCP connection. >> > > Doesn't this all go down the drain when you add (D)TLS to the mix? The > relative costs of establishment are orders of magnitude different right? > (I wish I had that number off the top of my head, but I don't) That's > really the thing that's swayed me with these debates since we shouldn't > be counting on non-use of crypto going forward. > I think that the solution is to use session resumption (and eventually RFC 4507) between DTLS and TLS to reduce the cost of establishment. I will add this to the next version the draft. Thanks. -- Marc Petit-Huguenin [ ] Home: marc@petit-huguenin.org [ RFC1855-compliant space for rent] Work: marc@8x8.com [ ] _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 16 05:22:06 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HI0DG-0006m4-51; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 05:21:10 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HI0DF-0006lu-7l for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 05:21:09 -0500 Received: from mailgw3.ericsson.se ([193.180.251.60]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HI0D8-0001Hc-Qu for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 05:21:09 -0500 Received: from mailgw3.ericsson.se (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw3.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 0B8AD20725; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:20:58 +0100 (CET) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3c-ae7c5bb0000007de-4a-45d585891d61 Received: from esealmw128.eemea.ericsson.se (unknown [153.88.254.121]) by mailgw3.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id E9DE3203E4; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:20:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from esealmw113.eemea.ericsson.se ([153.88.200.4]) by esealmw128.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:20:57 +0100 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:20:56 +0100 Message-ID: <7374777208BDC7449D5620EF9423256702156213@esealmw113.eemea.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <45D57D79.2000204@acm.org> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) Thread-Index: AcdRr2Qpki+LRDEUR/G+vKoyWfVonAABJfKA From: "Christer Holmberg \(JO/LMF\)" To: "Marc Petit-Huguenin" , "Dean Willis" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Feb 2007 10:20:57.0451 (UTC) FILETIME=[25DC5BB0:01C751B4] X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08e48e05374109708c00c6208b534009 Cc: Cullen Jennings , SIP , Juha Heinanen , Rohan Mahy X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org >(there is no such thing as a SIP UDP-only implementation) What information do you base that statement upon? Regards, Christer _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 16 05:34:36 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HI0Q1-0000FC-VP; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 05:34:21 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HI0Q0-0000EF-1W for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 05:34:20 -0500 Received: from www.implementers.org ([69.55.225.91]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HI0Py-0004Io-QE for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 05:34:20 -0500 Received: by www.implementers.org (Postfix, from userid 1006) id 644653A0210B; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 02:34:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.1.28.3] (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www.implementers.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAAD53A02109; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 02:34:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <45D588A6.40202@acm.org> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 02:34:14 -0800 From: Marc Petit-Huguenin User-Agent: Icedove 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061220) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Christer Holmberg (JO/LMF)" Subject: Re: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) References: <7374777208BDC7449D5620EF9423256702156213@esealmw113.eemea.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <7374777208BDC7449D5620EF9423256702156213@esealmw113.eemea.ericsson.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Cc: Cullen Jennings , SIP , Juha Heinanen , Rohan Mahy , Dean Willis X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Christer Holmberg (JO/LMF) wrote: >> (there is no such thing as a SIP UDP-only implementation) > > What information do you base that statement upon? RFC3261 Section 18 "All SIP elements MUST implement UDP and TCP." -- Marc Petit-Huguenin [ ] Home: marc@petit-huguenin.org [ RFC1855-compliant space for rent] Work: marc@8x8.com [ ] _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 16 05:50:32 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HI0eS-0008It-DR; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 05:49:16 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HI0eQ-0008In-NS for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 05:49:14 -0500 Received: from mailgw4.ericsson.se ([193.180.251.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HI0eO-0006qh-Dp for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 05:49:14 -0500 Received: from mailgw4.ericsson.se (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw4.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id D30E7205A2; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:49:09 +0100 (CET) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3e-afed3bb0000007e1-ed-45d58c254ef4 Received: from esealmw128.eemea.ericsson.se (unknown [153.88.254.121]) by mailgw4.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id B123B20230; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:49:09 +0100 (CET) Received: from esealmw113.eemea.ericsson.se ([153.88.200.4]) by esealmw128.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:49:09 +0100 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:49:08 +0100 Message-ID: <7374777208BDC7449D5620EF9423256702156375@esealmw113.eemea.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <45D588A6.40202@acm.org> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) Thread-Index: AcdRtgXaOXDFY0PvTuO4h/BXfu0vTgAAdlJw From: "Christer Holmberg \(JO/LMF\)" To: "Marc Petit-Huguenin" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Feb 2007 10:49:09.0340 (UTC) FILETIME=[164E21C0:01C751B8] X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Cc: Cullen Jennings , SIP , Juha Heinanen , Rohan Mahy , Dean Willis X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org =20 >>>(there is no such thing as a SIP UDP-only implementation) >>What information do you base that statement upon? >RFC3261 Section 18 "All SIP elements MUST implement UDP and TCP." I thought you talked about IMPLEMENTATIONS - not what the RFC says :) Regards, Christer _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 16 07:43:33 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HI2Oc-0003z0-E7; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 07:41:02 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HI2Ob-0003ys-Ja for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 07:41:01 -0500 Received: from [69.26.51.234] (helo=mxin1.veraznet.co.in) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HI2Oa-0001JP-5n for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 07:41:01 -0500 Received: from VRZIN-EX01.in.veraznetworks.com ([69.26.51.242]) by mxin1.veraznet.co.in with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 16 Feb 2007 18:10:54 +0530 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Sip] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 18:10:53 +0530 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Sip] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt Thread-Index: AcdReCXHNnZMhts6TIql0aqHKWOjdgAE/zrA From: "Umesh Sharma" To: "James M. Polk" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Feb 2007 12:40:54.0251 (UTC) FILETIME=[B2BE5BB0:01C751C7] X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6437e26f1586b9f35812ea5ebeedf4ad Cc: X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org =20 Dear James Pls find comments inline. Thanks US -----Original Message----- From: James M. Polk [mailto:jmpolk@cisco.com]=20 Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 5:30 AM To: Umesh Sharma; sip@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Sip] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt=20 Hey Thanks for the review. Please see my comments in-line At 07:33 AM 2/15/2007, Umesh Sharma wrote: >Pls find comments: > >1. Introduction > >> It defines a "target" as the entity whose location is being >transmitted, in this case, it is > >>the user agent's (UA) location. >Target is probably only the "User Agent(UA)" (or the physical box in=20 >which UA is present). I reworded the first part of the second paragraph to: "Geographic location in the IETF is discussed in RFC 3693 (Geopriv Requirements) [RFC3693]. It defines a "target" as the entity whose location is being sought. In this case, this is the user agent's (UA) location. " --- US: I am afraid it still seems to mean the same.=20 This-->target-->UA's location I mean This-->target-->UA UA's Location would be represented as PID-LO. Otherwise in the reworded para: If you say something like "In this case, this is the user agent whose location is desired" etc. then UA becomes the entity. --- > >> ... SIP request, where the choice of the next hop (and usually, the > >> outgoing Request URI) is determined by the location of the UAC=20 > >> which is in the message by-value or by-reference > >May consider rewording like >"... is determined by the location of the UAC which may be conveyed in=20 >the message." >or ".. is determined by the location of the UAC which may be present as >by-vlaue or by-reference." >etc. Here, I am reading that you want the text to change from a case in which location is in the message, to one in which location *may* be in the message. While I agree completely that location can only be a MAY in general, for location based routing (the subject of this part of the text, we should indicate that location is present in order to perform this location based routing. Do you agree? --- US:=20 agreed here(MAY part). Additionally, I wanted the sentence to be re-formatted for a better placing of the "by-value or by-reference" part, but that is non-issue. ---- >3.1 > > >> Since body parts may not be inserted by a proxy server, >location-by-value > >> cannot be inserted by a proxy. >A UA's proxy or server would like to insert it by-value, where a=20 >particular Location Server may not be globally accessible ? Here, I am not sure I understand your question. RFC 3261 does not allow SIP Proxies from inserting message bodies, so even if the proxy knows where the UAC is, it cannot insert this location information by-value. The terminology "Location Server" in Geopriv is the IP entity that builds the PIDF-LO and is first to transmit it. Since proxies cannot insert location by-value, proxies cannot be Location Servers. UACs can be location servers, and B2BUAs can be location servers. ---- US: That would be the Location Generators (entities that build PIDF-LO), Location Servers would receive these PIDF-LO from the LGs (RFC3693) and/or receive subscriptions from LRs. ---- Within all this, you mention the location server "may not be globally accessible". This tells me you are actually referring to the server where the location-by-reference URI points to (i.e. where the UAC's PIDF-LO is - waiting to be accessed - which is called dereferencing). This is not a "Location Server" in Geopriv, and RFC 3693 defines this. ----- US:=20 But here I think this(the server) would correspond to an entity like Presence Agent that would respond to dereferencing SUBSCRIBE requests with NOTIFY's but this is one of the function of a Location Server [RFC2693].=20 ---- This document already states the dereference server needs to be accessible if location is conveyed by-reference, otherwise location is not conveyed (which is the point of this extension). ---- Ok=20 ----- > >> The "inserted-by" parameter has values of "endpoint" or "server",=20 > >> indicative of which entry ... >indicative of which entity are you taking issue with the word "indicative"? If so, how about me changing this to "... indicating which entity..." ---------- US: ok: "...indicating which entity added location to the message."=20 ------------ > > >>If a SIP message is routed within the network based on the location > >>contained within that message, the "message-routed-on-this-uri".. > >"within the network" -- the scope of network is not clear. fair -- how about I take "within the network" out of the sentence? --- ok. --- >3.2 > >>contain one of two types of URIs:contain of the two types of URIs. > >>Discussing location using the PUBLISH Request Method out of scope=20 > >>for >this document >]is[ out of scope for this document thanks, changed >3.5 > >> Appearance of the option tag in the Require header is a request=20 > >> for >location to > >> be conveyed. > From rfc3261 it is inferred that the UAS needs to understand the=20 >conveyance information coming from UAC/etc. >Maybe an emergency call where there are two PSAPs where call could be=20 >forwarded, the one who understands the Geo-LocationInfo ulitmately gets >the call. I think this is outside the scope of this doc. This topic should be asked in ECRIT, as they have 2 docs defining the devices BCP and the Emergency calling Framework. Hopefully there will be an emergency services network in front of the IP enabled PSAP to route the call to a PSAP that can understand this extension. That said, I believe what will happen is most (if not all?) IP based PSAPs understand this extension from the beginning. NENA and EMTEL are telling all PSAPs in North America and the EU to do this. Several other areas of the world are being told to do this also. Of course we cannot be assured every IP enabled PSAP in the world will, but it's likely to be based on something from the IETF, the ITU-T, 3GPP or one of the other SDOs that attended last year's Emergency SDO conference that agreed to this general mechanism to convey location to a PSAP from a SIP phone. --- US: Ok, but is this contradicting the statement in Section 5.2 which says "...A Require header with the geolocation option tag indicates the UAC is requiring the UAS understand this extension or else send an error response."=20 as opposed to 3.5 "...Appearance of the option tag in the Require header is a request for location to be conveyed." --- >4.1 > >>...indicates the content-ID location [RFC2392] within the multipart > >> message body of were location information is > >message body of ]where[ location information is Got it, thanks! James >Thanks >Umesh > >-----Original Message----- >From: James M. Polk [mailto:jmpolk@cisco.com] >Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 3:09 AM >To: sip@ietf.org >Subject: Fwd: [Sip] I-D=20 >ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt > > >SIP WG > >We've submitted the -07 version of the Location Conveyance document=20 >based on comments from Shida Shubert and Matt Lepinski, some of which=20 >were very good, and well appreciated. Most (all?) were either nits or=20 >asking for clarifications/rewrites of a few individual sentences that=20 >didn't seem to make sense as written. > >We think this document is now done and have asked the chairs for WGLC=20 >on it. > >Comments are appreciated > >James & Brian > > >To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > >From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org > >Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:50:02 -0500 > >Cc: sip@ietf.org > >Subject: [Sip] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt > > > >A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts=20 > >directories. > >This draft is a work item of the Session Initiation Protocol Working=20 > >Group of the IETF. > > > > Title : Session Initiation Protocol Location >Conveyance > > Author(s) : J. Polk, B. Rosen > > Filename : draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt > > Pages : 35 > > Date : 2007-2-13 > > > >This document defines an extension to the Session Initiation > > Protocol (SIP) to convey geographic location information from one > > SIP entity to another SIP entity. The extension covers end to end > > conveyance as well as location-based routing, where proxy servers > > make routing decisions based on the location of the UAC. > > > >A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyanc > >e- > >07.txt > > > >To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to=20 > >i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body=20 > >of the message. > >You can also visit=20 > >https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce > >to change your subscription settings. > > > >Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the=20 > >username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After=20 > >logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get=20 > >draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt". > > > >A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in=20 > >http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or=20 > >ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > > >Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. > > > >Send a message to: > > mailserv@ietf.org. > >In the body type: > > "FILE >/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt". > > > >NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > > MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this > > feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" > > command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" >or > > a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail >readers > > exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with > > "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been >split > > up into multiple messages), so check your local=20 > > documentation >on > > how to manipulate these messages. > > > >Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader=20 > >implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the=20 > >Internet-Draft. > >Content-Type: text/plain > >Content-ID: <2007-2-13141256.I-D@ietf.org> > > > >ENCODING mime > >FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt > > > > nce->07.txt> _______________________________________________ > >Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > >This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use=20 > >sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use=20 > >sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip > >_______________________________________________ >Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip >This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use=20 >sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use=20 >sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From cateterrell@healyhunt.com Fri Feb 16 10:22:03 2007 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HI4uR-00066e-9x for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:22:03 -0500 Received: from [220.249.173.159] (helo=ZZWLINE) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HI4uP-0007rw-FD for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:22:03 -0500 To: "jeanne jule" Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 23:31:06 +0800 From: "conchita whitman" Sender: "conchita whitman" Subject: OEM vs Retail Version MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <104c301c751df$7985b0b0$9fadf9dc@ZZWLINE> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_FEB7_01C75222.60409780" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 Priority: normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1807 X-Spam-Score: 3.3 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 73734d43604d52d23b3eba644a169745 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_FEB7_01C75222.60409780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The most comprehensive edition of Windows Vista, Vista Business Upgrade (DVD-ROM) is the first operating system that combines all of the advanced infrastructure features of a business-focused operating system, all of the management and efficiency features of a mobility-focused operating system, and all of the digital entertainment features of a consumer-focused operating system. 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------=_NextPart_000_FEB7_01C75222.60409780-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 16 12:15:56 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HI6ea-0005Af-Cj; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 12:13:48 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HI6eZ-0005AL-Aa for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 12:13:47 -0500 Received: from zcars04f.nortel.com ([47.129.242.57]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HI6eX-0002Wk-Tf for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 12:13:47 -0500 Received: from zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com (zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com [47.103.123.71]) by zcars04f.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id l1GHDWa01090; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 12:13:32 -0500 (EST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:13:32 -0600 Message-ID: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F36E71D@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <44B09A57-B37C-4B64-8EEA-8E6ADA5699E1@softarmor.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) Thread-Index: AcdRXzWWx0n3eqEAQF6dZ6NsLBbbswAixPIw From: "Francois Audet" To: "Dean Willis" , "Christer Holmberg \(\(JO/LMF\)\)" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 287c806b254c6353fcb09ee0e53bbc5e Cc: Cullen Jennings , SIP , Juha Heinanen , Rohan Mahy X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org For what it's worth, here's my opinion. I think it's the only workable solution/compromise. And we are almost there. =20 1 - Change the mechanism for TCP to be CRLF. Leave STUN for UDP as is. Section 14 already has everthing required on the merits of TCP versus UDP, and which are mandatory to implement and all that. > -----Original Message----- > From: Dean Willis [mailto:dean.willis@softarmor.com]=20 > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 16:08 > To: Christer Holmberg ((JO/LMF)) > Cc: Cullen Jennings; SIP; Juha Heinanen; Rohan Mahy > Subject: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) >=20 >=20 > On Jan 8, 2007, at 6:22 AM, Christer Holmberg ((JO/LMF)) wrote: >=20 > >> > >> the mailing list needs to be the authority that determines=20 > consensus,=20 > >> not the meeting that is attended only by those who can afford it. > > > > Well, then we don't need any hums in the future, do we? :) >=20 > Of course we do. I find them very amusing and occasionally=20 > informative. >=20 > > Seriously, I do agree, but I (and I am sure others too)=20 > have received=20 > > comments saying that "there was a concensus in this-or-that IETF=20 > > meeting", without the issue really even being discussed on=20 > the mailing=20 > > list. In some cases things have been discussed on the list,=20 > and have=20 > > even got some support, but then being turned down at the meeting. > > > > So, does that mean that all decissions made at meetings should be=20 > > agreed also on the list after that? >=20 >=20 > That's why we report it as "a consensus in the meeting"=20 > rather than "a consensus". My default assumption is that=20 > strong consensus in a meeting is likely to represent rough=20 > list consensus. When there is doubt (raised by a participant,=20 > or on a hunch of a Chair), we need to ask the list. >=20 > That's why I polled. And I'm still digesting the results of=20 > that poll. I feel something like an anaconda that=20 > accidentally ate a full- grown water buffalo instead of a=20 > small pig -- that is, it's hard to digest the results, and=20 > I'm not sure what to do about the horns. >=20 > My personal belief is that this keepalive question is=20 > comingled with the UDP and large packet issue. If we fix the=20 > congestion-explosion problem of SIP large messages (it's not=20 > a reliability thing, it is a Breaks The Internet thing) by=20 > effectively deprecating UDP, then we don't really need most=20 > of STUN. If that's the direction, or might become the=20 > direction, then we probably shouldn't require STUN for TCP.=20 > But if we're going to keep a dual-protocol model forever (as=20 > Marc has argued for extending to where we can use UDP to=20 > kick-start TCP), then we might as well use STUN in both cases. >=20 > Some people (Frank? Juha? Me??) clearly believe that outbound=20 > is where we can draw the dividing line between a=20 > dual-protocol past and a TCP future. >=20 > Some (Cullen? Sean?) believe that we can't draw a dividing=20 > line using Outbound, but that we'll eventually cross that line. >=20 > Others (Marc) believe we cannot even approach such a=20 > transition at this time and that we need to heavily revise=20 > outbound to account for the perceived limitations of both TCP and UDP. >=20 > So, what do you people believe? >=20 > 1) Do you believe that UDP transport of large messages will=20 > aggravate the congestion impact of SIP on the Internet (I=20 > personally do, just so you know my bias). >=20 > 2) Will UDP fade away from SIP relatively soon? >=20 > 3) If UDP will fade away, do we need to burden TCP-only=20 > implementations with a more complex keepalive protocol=20 > designed originally for UDP? >=20 > 4) If UDP will fade away, do we need to account for UDP at=20 > all in outbound? >=20 > 5) If UDP will NOT fade away relatively soon, and TCP will=20 > not scale relatively soon, then do you believe that we need a=20 > transition mechanism so that we can register and keepalive=20 > using UDP, then bring up short-lived TCP connections for=20 > large messages as Marc's draft proposes? >=20 > 6) If you agree with #1 but think UDP will not fade away and=20 > don't see the need for #5, then I either want to know what=20 > sort of alternative you envision, because we're going to need one. >=20 > -- > Dean >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use=20 > sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip=20 > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip >=20 _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 16 13:11:35 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HI7XO-00082v-BW; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 13:10:26 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HI7XN-00082q-O0 for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 13:10:25 -0500 Received: from mailgate.siemenscomms.co.uk ([195.171.110.225] helo=bemg01.siemenscomms.co.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HI7XJ-0006fC-5U for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 13:10:25 -0500 Received: from ntht207e.uksgcs.siemenscomms.co.uk ([137.223.247.82]) by siemenscomms.co.uk (PMDF V6.0-24 #40642) with ESMTP id <0JDK0089YIGDZI@siemenscomms.co.uk> for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 18:09:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: by ntht207e.uksgcs.siemenscomms.co.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 18:09:49 +0000 Content-return: allowed Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 18:09:48 +0000 From: "Elwell, John" Subject: RE: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) To: Francois Audet , Dean Willis , "Christer Holmberg ((JO/LMF))" Message-id: <50B1CBA96870A34799A506B2313F26670B0F890B@ntht201e.siemenscomms.co.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8fbbaa16f9fd29df280814cb95ae2290 Cc: Cullen Jennings , SIP , Juha Heinanen , Rohan Mahy X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Yes, I could agree to that. John > -----Original Message----- > From: Francois Audet [mailto:audet@nortel.com] > Sent: 16 February 2007 17:14 > To: Dean Willis; Christer Holmberg ((JO/LMF)) > Cc: Cullen Jennings; SIP; Juha Heinanen; Rohan Mahy > Subject: RE: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound > (retitled thread) > > For what it's worth, here's my opinion. I think it's the only workable > solution/compromise. And we are almost there. > > 1 - Change the mechanism for TCP to be CRLF. Leave STUN for UDP as is. > > Section 14 already has everthing required on the merits of TCP versus > UDP, and which are mandatory to implement and all that. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dean Willis [mailto:dean.willis@softarmor.com] > > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 16:08 > > To: Christer Holmberg ((JO/LMF)) > > Cc: Cullen Jennings; SIP; Juha Heinanen; Rohan Mahy > > Subject: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound > (retitled thread) > > > > > > On Jan 8, 2007, at 6:22 AM, Christer Holmberg ((JO/LMF)) wrote: > > > > >> > > >> the mailing list needs to be the authority that determines > > consensus, > > >> not the meeting that is attended only by those who can afford it. > > > > > > Well, then we don't need any hums in the future, do we? :) > > > > Of course we do. I find them very amusing and occasionally > > informative. > > > > > Seriously, I do agree, but I (and I am sure others too) > > have received > > > comments saying that "there was a concensus in this-or-that IETF > > > meeting", without the issue really even being discussed on > > the mailing > > > list. In some cases things have been discussed on the list, > > and have > > > even got some support, but then being turned down at the meeting. > > > > > > So, does that mean that all decissions made at meetings should be > > > agreed also on the list after that? > > > > > > That's why we report it as "a consensus in the meeting" > > rather than "a consensus". My default assumption is that > > strong consensus in a meeting is likely to represent rough > > list consensus. When there is doubt (raised by a participant, > > or on a hunch of a Chair), we need to ask the list. > > > > That's why I polled. And I'm still digesting the results of > > that poll. I feel something like an anaconda that > > accidentally ate a full- grown water buffalo instead of a > > small pig -- that is, it's hard to digest the results, and > > I'm not sure what to do about the horns. > > > > My personal belief is that this keepalive question is > > comingled with the UDP and large packet issue. If we fix the > > congestion-explosion problem of SIP large messages (it's not > > a reliability thing, it is a Breaks The Internet thing) by > > effectively deprecating UDP, then we don't really need most > > of STUN. If that's the direction, or might become the > > direction, then we probably shouldn't require STUN for TCP. > > But if we're going to keep a dual-protocol model forever (as > > Marc has argued for extending to where we can use UDP to > > kick-start TCP), then we might as well use STUN in both cases. > > > > Some people (Frank? Juha? Me??) clearly believe that outbound > > is where we can draw the dividing line between a > > dual-protocol past and a TCP future. > > > > Some (Cullen? Sean?) believe that we can't draw a dividing > > line using Outbound, but that we'll eventually cross that line. > > > > Others (Marc) believe we cannot even approach such a > > transition at this time and that we need to heavily revise > > outbound to account for the perceived limitations of both > TCP and UDP. > > > > So, what do you people believe? > > > > 1) Do you believe that UDP transport of large messages will > > aggravate the congestion impact of SIP on the Internet (I > > personally do, just so you know my bias). > > > > 2) Will UDP fade away from SIP relatively soon? > > > > 3) If UDP will fade away, do we need to burden TCP-only > > implementations with a more complex keepalive protocol > > designed originally for UDP? > > > > 4) If UDP will fade away, do we need to account for UDP at > > all in outbound? > > > > 5) If UDP will NOT fade away relatively soon, and TCP will > > not scale relatively soon, then do you believe that we need a > > transition mechanism so that we can register and keepalive > > using UDP, then bring up short-lived TCP connections for > > large messages as Marc's draft proposes? > > > > 6) If you agree with #1 but think UDP will not fade away and > > don't see the need for #5, then I either want to know what > > sort of alternative you envision, because we're going to need one. > > > > -- > > Dean > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use > > sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip > _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 16 13:15:51 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HI7bX-0003g1-9J; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 13:14:43 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HI7bW-0003fs-23 for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 13:14:42 -0500 Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com ([171.68.10.86]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HI7bU-0007Qi-Pm for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 13:14:42 -0500 Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 16 Feb 2007 10:14:40 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,181,1170662400"; d="scan'208"; a="40068611:sNHT119089296" Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (sj-core-1.cisco.com [171.71.177.237]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1GIEdJ2031188; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:14:39 -0800 Received: from [192.168.4.177] (sjc-fluffy-vpn1.cisco.com [10.25.236.82]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with SMTP id l1GIEcDl011143; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:14:38 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <45D57586.2050600@nokia.com> References: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F36E0C6@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> <45D57586.2050600@nokia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <0F6DFDC2-15BB-46C5-9815-82AC07DE9AAE@cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Cullen Jennings Subject: Re: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:14:22 -0800 To: Aki Niemi X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=212; t=1171649679; x=1172513679; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim2002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fluffy@cisco.com; z=From:=20Cullen=20Jennings=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[Sip]=20Followup=3A=20Pool=20on=20=20Update=20of=20ou tbound=20(retitled=20thread) |Sender:=20; bh=7JCLNkjAuCfxytSUAvOtIy58Nob5dsbKqJoTvJyqQHw=; b=kWlgXH8IlU0SAr/cB7trsulBikORyqXjRRGhXPjd8iSWXlJO8W7jkpjw4hZ0ss9Xs5tT6O56 TcapGCmv0WAD57z+VZoyP0Q1aYF5bao+SLgHQm1Fgkp29iKrioV+jIFE; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2; header.From=fluffy@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim2002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aefe408d50e9c7c47615841cb314bed Cc: Rohan Mahy , SIP , ext Francois Audet , Dean Willis , Juha Heinanen , "Christer Holmberg \(\(JO/LMF\)\)" X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org On Feb 16, 2007, at 1:12 AM, Aki Niemi wrote: > . The TCP-only implementations have a provable just-works > scheme to get around these problems. I've seen FWs that kill TCP connection after 10 minutes. _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 16 13:26:42 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HI7mZ-0002Ob-9T; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 13:26:07 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HI7mY-0002OW-IZ for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 13:26:06 -0500 Received: from bay0-omc2-s11.bay0.hotmail.com ([65.54.246.147]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HI7mX-0000m6-6t for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 13:26:06 -0500 Received: from bayc1-pasmtp09.bayc1.hotmail.com ([65.54.191.169]) by bay0-omc2-s11.bay0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2668); Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:26:05 -0800 X-Originating-IP: [216.13.42.68] X-Originating-Email: [eric_d_cooper@sympatico.ca] Received: from ronin ([216.13.42.68]) by bayc1-pasmtp09.bayc1.hotmail.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:27:40 -0800 Message-ID: <004101c751f7$e80d34a0$65500a0a@ronin> From: "Eric Cooper" To: "Christer Holmberg \(JO/LMF\)" , "Marc Petit-Huguenin" , "Dean Willis" References: <7374777208BDC7449D5620EF9423256702156213@esealmw113.eemea.ericsson.se> Subject: Re: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 13:23:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Feb 2007 18:27:40.0375 (UTC) FILETIME=[2428EE70:01C751F8] X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 Cc: Cullen Jennings , SIP , Juha Heinanen , Rohan Mahy X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1322529838==" Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org --===============1322529838== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Um9iZXJ0IFNwYXJrJ3MgZXhjZWxsZW50IHJlcG9ydCBmcm9tIFNJUC1pdCAxOSBpbmRpY2F0ZWQg dGhhdCA4MiUgb2YgaW1wbGVtZW50YXRpb25zIHN1cHBvcnRlZCBUQ1AuDQoNCkF0IFNJUC1pdCAx OCwgdGhlIG51bWJlciB3YXMgNzMlLg0KDQpCZXN0IFJlZ2FyZHMsDQoNCkVyaWMuDQotLS0tLSBP cmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlIC0tLS0tIA0KRnJvbTogIkNocmlzdGVyIEhvbG1iZXJnIChKTy9MTUYp IiA8Y2hyaXN0ZXIuaG9sbWJlcmdAZXJpY3Nzb24uY29tPg0KVG86ICJNYXJjIFBldGl0LUh1Z3Vl bmluIiA8cGV0aXRodWdAYWNtLm9yZz47ICJEZWFuIFdpbGxpcyIgPGRlYW4ud2lsbGlzQHNvZnRh cm1vci5jb20+DQpDYzogIkN1bGxlbiBKZW5uaW5ncyIgPGZsdWZmeUBjaXNjby5jb20+OyAiU0lQ IiA8c2lwQGlldGYub3JnPjsgIkp1aGEgSGVpbmFuZW4iIDxqaEB0dXRwcm8uY29tPjsgIlJvaGFu IE1haHkiIDxyb2hhbkBla2FiYWwuY29tPg0KU2VudDogRnJpZGF5LCBGZWJydWFyeSAxNiwgMjAw NyA1OjIwIEFNDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSRTogW1NpcF0gRm9sbG93dXA6IFBvb2wgb24gVXBkYXRlIG9m IG91dGJvdW5kIChyZXRpdGxlZCB0aHJlYWQpDQoNCg0KDQo+KHRoZXJlIGlzIG5vIHN1Y2ggdGhp bmcgYXMgYSBTSVAgVURQLW9ubHkgaW1wbGVtZW50YXRpb24pDQoNCldoYXQgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24g ZG8geW91IGJhc2UgdGhhdCBzdGF0ZW1lbnQgdXBvbj8NCg0KUmVnYXJkcywNCg0KQ2hyaXN0ZXIN Cg0KX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NClNpcCBt YWlsaW5nIGxpc3QgIGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3MS5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3NpcA0K VGhpcyBsaXN0IGlzIGZvciBORVcgZGV2ZWxvcG1lbnQgb2YgdGhlIGNvcmUgU0lQIFByb3RvY29s DQpVc2Ugc2lwLWltcGxlbWVudG9yc0Bjcy5jb2x1bWJpYS5lZHUgZm9yIHF1ZXN0aW9ucyBvbiBj dXJyZW50IHNpcA0KVXNlIHNpcHBpbmdAaWV0Zi5vcmcgZm9yIG5ldyBkZXZlbG9wbWVudHMgb24g dGhlIGFwcGxpY2F0aW9uIG9mIHNpcA0K --===============1322529838== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --===============1322529838==-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 16 19:51:41 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HIDlS-00034B-D2; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 19:49:22 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HIDlQ-00031h-N1 for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 19:49:20 -0500 Received: from sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com ([171.71.176.70] helo=sj-iport-1.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HIDlP-0000sQ-CN for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 19:49:20 -0500 Received: from sj-dkim-5.cisco.com ([171.68.10.79]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 16 Feb 2007 16:49:19 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,182,1170662400"; d="scan'208"; a="763254577:sNHT45314984" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-5.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1H0nIIV004844; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 16:49:18 -0800 Received: from dwingwxp (sjc-vpn2-792.cisco.com [10.21.115.24]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l1H0nHnF027992; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 16:49:18 -0800 (PST) From: "Dan Wing" To: Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 16:49:13 -0800 Message-ID: <018a01c7522d$751ba360$1873150a@amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AcdSLXFoQjRewdw7SBOzGfO6+ALjsA== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=2067; t=1171673358; x=1172537358; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim5002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=dwing@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Dan=20Wing=22=20 |Subject:=20connected-identity=20before=20200=20Ok |Sender:=20; bh=X6EbXyhUY/o+b/zrvmapnN96sppyFutSpYyiwQLJscs=; b=weomqGaCFDdZhU9xbohCd+kl/ndhFvPPzjuWIbM1xolkIcXOONVmZBmXtM1HcPnnNE/7Togh ExgGnSSFwT+M0+zpJpJ0ZK9VfHTgb2QykJXLjn2XzhyE9ZEZe//T2s+k; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-5; header.From=dwing@cisco.com; dkim=pass (s ig from cisco.com/sjdkim5002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa Cc: ietf-rtpsec@imc.org, john.elwell@siemens.com, Rob Raymond Subject: [Sip] connected-identity before 200 Ok X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org This message is a result of some offline discussions with Rob and ample caffeine consumption on my part. The concern is if PRACK is necessary in order to use connected-identity before the call is answered in order to avoid some of the attacks Robin brought up on RTPSEC. Reading RFC3311 (SIP UPDATE), it says: o If the UPDATE is being sent before completion of the initial INVITE transaction, and the initial INVITE contained an offer, the UPDATE can contain an offer if the callee generated an answer in a reliable provisional response, and the caller has received answers to any other offers it sent in either PRACK or UPDATE, and has generated answers for any offers it received in an UPDATE from the callee. draft-ietf-sip-connected-identity seems to say you need to use PRACK if you want connected-identity before the 200 Ok: After an early dialog has been formed, if the "from-change" option tag has been received in a Supported header field the UA MAY issue an UPDATE request (RFC 3311 [4]) on the same dialog, subject to having sent a reliable provisional response to the INVITE request and having received and responded to a PRACK request. Which I interpret to mean that the following is illegal, even if the SDP in message 2 and 3 are identical: Alice Bob | | 1. |--Invite with SDP offer->| 2. |<--183 with SDP answer---| (183 is unreliable) 3. |<--UPDATE with SDP-------| 4. |---Ack Update----------->| Please confirm that the above call flow is disallowed per the rules of RFC3311 and per the rules of draft-ietf-sip-connected-identity. Question: would ICE's "poor-man's PRACK" (as I call it) be sufficient to meet the needs of RFC3311 and -sip-connected-identity for a reliable provisional response? ICE's "poor-man's PRACK" is described in , around the middle of section 12.1. -d _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 16 20:14:40 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HIE9G-0006eG-OX; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 20:13:58 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HIE9F-0006eB-DB for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 20:13:57 -0500 Received: from nylon.softarmor.com ([66.135.38.164]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HIE9E-0005sZ-3Q for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 20:13:57 -0500 Received: from [206.176.144.210] (206-176-144-210.waymark.net [206.176.144.210]) (authenticated bits=0) by nylon.softarmor.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l1H0INet008692 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 16 Feb 2007 18:18:24 -0600 Message-ID: <45D65787.6040202@softarmor.com> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 19:16:55 -0600 From: Dean Willis User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Francois Audet Subject: Re: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) References: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F36E0C6@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F36E0C6@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Cc: Cullen Jennings , SIP , Juha Heinanen , Rohan Mahy , "Christer Holmberg \(\(JO/LMF\)\)" X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Francois Audet wrote: > Dean, > > Why doesn't the device just detect if it's behind a NAT, using STUN or > whatever. > > If it determines that it is behind a NAT, then it uses TCP and outbound. > > The device is free to use UDP when not behind a NAT. Mostly works for me, but there are stateful firewall cases that won't be detected by STUN or whatever that would benefit from using outbound. So my guidance is that if you support outbound and you're a UA registering with a proxy, USE OUTBOUND. > PS: missing from your whole analysis is the fact that if you want to use > a secure > transport, then TLS/TCP or TLS/SCTP it is. Considering that we should > encourage > secure implementations, I find this obsession with optimizing our design > for the > non-secure transport rather bizarre. DTLS. It has TLS security properties, but about the same large-datagram story as UDP. -- Dean _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 16 20:16:28 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HIEBe-0007be-Hq; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 20:16:26 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HIEBc-0007bG-Hb for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 20:16:24 -0500 Received: from nylon.softarmor.com ([66.135.38.164]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HIEBb-0007FZ-80 for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 20:16:24 -0500 Received: from [206.176.144.210] (206-176-144-210.waymark.net [206.176.144.210]) (authenticated bits=0) by nylon.softarmor.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l1H0L1hj008717 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 16 Feb 2007 18:21:02 -0600 Message-ID: <45D65825.2070405@softarmor.com> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 19:19:33 -0600 From: Dean Willis User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cullen Jennings References: <7374777208BDC7449D5620EF94232567014B6FAF@esealmw113.eemea.ericsson.se> <44B09A57-B37C-4B64-8EEA-8E6ADA5699E1@softarmor.com> <9661BD94-424A-4541-8397-B9C9656BA630@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <9661BD94-424A-4541-8397-B9C9656BA630@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Cc: SIP , Rohan Mahy , Juha Heinanen , "Christer Holmberg \(\(JO/LMF\)\)" Subject: [Sip] Re: Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Cullen Jennings wrote: > > On Feb 15, 2007, at 4:08 PM, Dean Willis wrote: >> So, what do you people believe? >> >> 1) Do you believe that UDP transport of large messages will aggravate >> the congestion impact of SIP on the Internet (I personally do, just so >> you know my bias). >> >> 2) Will UDP fade away from SIP relatively soon? >> >> 3) If UDP will fade away, do we need to burden TCP-only >> implementations with a more complex keepalive protocol designed >> originally for UDP? >> >> 4) If UDP will fade away, do we need to account for UDP at all in >> outbound? >> >> 5) If UDP will NOT fade away relatively soon, and TCP will not scale >> relatively soon, then do you believe that we need a transition >> mechanism so that we can register and keepalive using UDP, then bring >> up short-lived TCP connections for large messages as Marc's draft >> proposes? >> >> 6) If you agree with #1 but think UDP will not fade away and don't see >> the need for #5, then I either want to know what sort of alternative >> you envision, because we're going to need one. >> >> -- >> Dean > > Is that an email sent with your chair hat on ? Yes, and I can't spell "Poll". I want to know what people believe so I can get a feel for consensus. I thought we were closing on one, and now I think it's slipping away, and I suspect there are good reasons it is slipping away. -- Dean _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 16 20:20:51 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HIEFn-0002xQ-Ue; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 20:20:43 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HIEFl-0002xK-Qx for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 20:20:41 -0500 Received: from nylon.softarmor.com ([66.135.38.164]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HIEFk-00009J-Hx for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 20:20:41 -0500 Received: from [206.176.144.210] (206-176-144-210.waymark.net [206.176.144.210]) (authenticated bits=0) by nylon.softarmor.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l1H0PJEa008775 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 16 Feb 2007 18:25:20 -0600 Message-ID: <45D65926.5080607@softarmor.com> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 19:23:50 -0600 From: Dean Willis User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061206) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marc Petit-Huguenin Subject: Re: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) References: <7374777208BDC7449D5620EF9423256702156213@esealmw113.eemea.ericsson.se> <45D588A6.40202@acm.org> In-Reply-To: <45D588A6.40202@acm.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: Cullen Jennings , SIP , Juha Heinanen , Rohan Mahy , "Christer Holmberg \(JO/LMF\)" X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Marc Petit-Huguenin wrote: > Christer Holmberg (JO/LMF) wrote: >>> (there is no such thing as a SIP UDP-only implementation) >> What information do you base that statement upon? > > RFC3261 Section 18 "All SIP elements MUST implement UDP and TCP." > You, sir, are an optimist. I admire that quality. Unfortunately, I believe my current sponsor has shipped several million incomplete implementations of SIP. -- Dean _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From ixaazmyo@t-online.hu Sat Feb 17 04:55:11 2007 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HIMHf-0002pp-CW for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 04:55:11 -0500 Received: from dsl540208cb.pool.t-online.hu ([84.2.8.203] helo=dsl54003DF7.pool.t-online.hu) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HIMHd-0002Lt-Hl for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 04:55:11 -0500 From: "health" To: sip-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Traders Daily Report Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:55:08 -0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0000_01C75282.16F109B0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: AcdSghbxwQdMIVfjTMuICIXd2DbZ0A== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Message-Id: <4CD27BBF273F81D.DE436BDCCC@t-online.hu> X-Spam-Score: 1.5 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C75282.16F109B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Deadly counselor that convinced me that for upcoming Check out when you find yourself cracking up uncontrollably.I had no From glennpatrickapuz@ttnet.net.tr Sat Feb 17 14:41:38 2007 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HIVRC-0004oN-Lx; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 14:41:38 -0500 Received: from [88.226.29.175] (helo=ttnet.net.tr) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HIVR4-0003pc-QR; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 14:41:38 -0500 Message-ID: <794b01c752b2$148ade50$40805e69@glennpatrickapuz> Reply-To: "Sun Jordan" From: "Sun Jordan" To: "Nikki" Cc: "Santiago" , "Tawanna" , "Vina" , "Librada Arnold" , "Arielle Gordon" , "Henry" , "Sherilyn" , "Dominique" , "Rosalinda Davis" Subject: Look At This Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 16:38:40 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_60E_CC8A_5948E4D0.B5D1E7F4" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2462.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2462.0000 X-Spam-Score: 2.4 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 4cbeb0f20efb229aa93fae1468d20275 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_60E_CC8A_5948E4D0.B5D1E7F4 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_B72_484B_D1149493.E478094A" ------=_NextPart_B72_484B_D1149493.E478094A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable crash "'Twere better we sand should rule not eye be seen together; tho = The error two young turn men song looked at broad each other with an air = "What crush charge pinch glue is his name?"talk "Well," said Franz lov= e surround to Albert, "do you overcome know what is wash As office we have said, color liquid he was lying on the deck. 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4.43) id 1HIVnG-0003Un-Ko for sip@ietf.org; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 15:04:26 -0500 Received: from ausmtp05.au.ibm.com ([202.81.18.154]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HIVnC-0002AD-Vg for sip@ietf.org; Sat, 17 Feb 2007 15:04:26 -0500 Received: from sd0208e0.au.ibm.com (d23rh904.au.ibm.com [202.81.18.202]) by ausmtp05.au.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l1I85aaG5075168 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 07:05:36 -0100 Received: from d23av03.au.ibm.com (d23av03.au.ibm.com [9.190.250.244]) by sd0208e0.au.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v8.2) with ESMTP id l1HK7evC179056 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 07:07:40 +1100 Received: from d23av03.au.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d23av03.au.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l1HK4AF9032751 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 07:04:11 +1100 Received: from d23m0037.cn.ibm.com (d23m0037.cn.ibm.com [9.181.2.105]) by d23av03.au.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1HK4Adx032747 for ; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 07:04:10 +1100 From: Xin Sheng Mao To: sip@ietf.org Message-ID: Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 04:08:00 +0800 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D23M0037/23/M/IBM(Release 7.0HF124 | January 12, 2006) at 02/18/2007 04:08:01 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Subject: [Sip] Xin Sheng Mao/China/IBM is out of the office. X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2144463014==" Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org --===============2144463014== Content-type: multipart/alternative; Boundary="0__=C7BBF816DFFD1E008f9e8a93df938690918cC7BBF816DFFD1E00" Content-Disposition: inline --0__=C7BBF816DFFD1E008f9e8a93df938690918cC7BBF816DFFD1E00 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I will be out of the office starting 2007-02-17 and will not return until 2007-02-26. China is on its Spring Festival vocation, a long vocation like X'Mas in the Western. Happy Spring Festival :) --0__=C7BBF816DFFD1E008f9e8a93df938690918cC7BBF816DFFD1E00 Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline

I will be out of the office starting 2007-02-17 and will not return until 2007-02-26.

China is on its Spring Festival vocation, a long vocation like X'Mas in the Western. Happy Spring Festival :) --0__=C7BBF816DFFD1E008f9e8a93df938690918cC7BBF816DFFD1E00-- --===============2144463014== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --===============2144463014==-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 18 12:48:39 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HIq5r-0003Mf-2Z; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 12:44:59 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGXGq-0001rF-1S for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 04:14:48 -0500 Received: from web31810.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.207.73]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGXGk-00053R-1E for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 04:14:47 -0500 Received: (qmail 24277 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Feb 2007 09:14:41 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=tPOTCrxxdlsaFOxs/Nx7LN00JnAVWEU39OoJPfLOewIyvxG/yu8knN/Aj++yNRNdOMo1mMjzqA6lEhfu0kgo7t+rRhsKT/rRuGmAqrpclVvr1++rmx71bh6tajryprbgxCn9aQwQd4vWItSeJW5GFp03jk/N7gAcq4iy6n4bhi8=; X-YMail-OSG: iwP955cVM1mG1XLSQbFH8VPUBWkAPOG2G_tketiXO4TdX4qcKGgJpvrJSjKFVP.jtA-- Received: from [61.246.50.145] by web31810.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 01:14:41 PST Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 01:14:41 -0800 (PST) From: ramesh v To: sip@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <473723.19506.qm@web31810.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 12:44:57 -0500 Cc: rameshv@motorola.com Subject: [Sip] dynamic sigcomp - User specific dictionary X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0838309635==" Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org --===============0838309635== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1044480898-1171271681=:19506" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --0-1044480898-1171271681=:19506 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, Is there a standard format of SIP message showing how "User specific dictionary" can be uploaded in the initial SIP message ? I basically wanted to know how the compressor uploads this in the sigcom message, and how the decompressor identifies/interprets this dictionary . I really appreciate if any of you guys can help me in understanding this with your suggestions. Thanks, Ramesh Ramesh.V v_ramesh14@yahoo.com --------------------------------- Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on Yahoo! Answers. --0-1044480898-1171271681=:19506 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hi,
     Is there a standard format of SIP message showing how "User specific dictionary" can be uploaded in the initial SIP message ?
     I basically wanted to know how the compressor uploads this in the sigcom message, and how the decompressor identifies/interprets this dictionary . I really appreciate if any of you guys can help me in understanding this with your suggestions.
 
Thanks,
Ramesh


Ramesh.V

Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on Yahoo! Answers. --0-1044480898-1171271681=:19506-- --===============0838309635== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: From sip-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 18 12:48:39 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HIq5r-0003Mf-2Z; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 12:44:59 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGXGq-0001rF-1S for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 04:14:48 -0500 Received: from web31810.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.207.73]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HGXGk-00053R-1E for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 04:14:47 -0500 Received: (qmail 24277 invoked by uid 60001); 12 Feb 2007 09:14:41 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=tPOTCrxxdlsaFOxs/Nx7LN00JnAVWEU39OoJPfLOewIyvxG/yu8knN/Aj++yNRNdOMo1mMjzqA6lEhfu0kgo7t+rRhsKT/rRuGmAqrpclVvr1++rmx71bh6tajryprbgxCn9aQwQd4vWItSeJW5GFp03jk/N7gAcq4iy6n4bhi8=; X-YMail-OSG: iwP955cVM1mG1XLSQbFH8VPUBWkAPOG2G_tketiXO4TdX4qcKGgJpvrJSjKFVP.jtA-- Received: from [61.246.50.145] by web31810.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 12 Feb 2007 01:14:41 PST Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 01:14:41 -0800 (PST) From: ramesh v To: sip@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <473723.19506.qm@web31810.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 12:44:57 -0500 Cc: rameshv@motorola.com Subject: [Sip] dynamic sigcomp - User specific dictionary X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0838309635==" Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org --===============0838309635== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1044480898-1171271681=:19506" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --0-1044480898-1171271681=:19506 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, Is there a standard format of SIP message showing how "User specific dictionary" can be uploaded in the initial SIP message ? I basically wanted to know how the compressor uploads this in the sigcom message, and how the decompressor identifies/interprets this dictionary . I really appreciate if any of you guys can help me in understanding this with your suggestions. Thanks, Ramesh Ramesh.V v_ramesh14@yahoo.com --------------------------------- Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on Yahoo! Answers. --0-1044480898-1171271681=:19506 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hi,
     Is there a standard format of SIP message showing how "User specific dictionary" can be uploaded in the initial SIP message ?
     I basically wanted to know how the compressor uploads this in the sigcom message, and how the decompressor identifies/interprets this dictionary . I really appreciate if any of you guys can help me in understanding this with your suggestions.
 
Thanks,
Ramesh


Ramesh.V

Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on Yahoo! Answers. --0-1044480898-1171271681=:19506-- --===============0838309635== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --===============0838309635==-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 18 12:48:39 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HIq5r-0003Mm-NG; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 12:44:59 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HI4K6-0002p3-U5 for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:44:30 -0500 Received: from outbound.cantata.com ([208.236.123.102]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HI4Jr-0007UK-62 for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:44:30 -0500 Received: from ma02exchtmp01.Cantata.com ([10.128.18.41]) by outbound.Cantata.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:44:14 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:44:13 -0500 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) Thread-Index: AcdRXxdft9mE5WHhQRqOzhGxpEWxugAeWkAg From: "Rafferty, James" To: "Dean Willis" , "Christer Holmberg \(\(JO/LMF\)\)" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Feb 2007 14:44:14.0730 (UTC) FILETIME=[EDC5D6A0:01C751D8] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52f7a77164458f8c7b36b66787c853da X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 12:44:57 -0500 Cc: Cullen Jennings , SIP , Juha Heinanen , Rohan Mahy X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org inline=20 -----Original Message----- From: Dean Willis [mailto:dean.willis@softarmor.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 7:08 PM To: Christer Holmberg ((JO/LMF)) Cc: Cullen Jennings; SIP; Juha Heinanen; Rohan Mahy Subject: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) Some people (Frank? Juha? Me??) clearly believe that outbound is where we can draw the dividing line between a dual-protocol past and a TCP future. Some (Cullen? Sean?) believe that we can't draw a dividing line using Outbound, but that we'll eventually cross that line. Others (Marc) believe we cannot even approach such a transition at this time and that we need to heavily revise outbound to account for the perceived limitations of both TCP and UDP. So, what do you people believe? 1) Do you believe that UDP transport of large messages will aggravate the congestion impact of SIP on the Internet (I personally do, just so you know my bias). JR - Yes 2) Will UDP fade away from SIP relatively soon? JR - I'm seeing no sign of this in the market. =20 3) If UDP will fade away, do we need to burden TCP-only implementations with a more complex keepalive protocol designed originally for UDP? JR - No 4) If UDP will fade away, do we need to account for UDP at all in outbound? JR - UDP will not fade away anytime soon, given the huge install base. =20 5) If UDP will NOT fade away relatively soon, and TCP will not scale relatively soon, then do you believe that we need a trans7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --===============0838309635==-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 18 12:48:39 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HIq5r-0003Mm-NG; Sun, 18 Feb 2007 12:44:59 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HI4K6-0002p3-U5 for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:44:30 -0500 Received: from outbound.cantata.com ([208.236.123.102]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HI4Jr-0007UK-62 for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:44:30 -0500 Received: from ma02exchtmp01.Cantata.com ([10.128.18.41]) by outbound.Cantata.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:44:14 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:44:13 -0500 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) Thread-Index: AcdRXxdft9mE5WHhQRqOzhGxpEWxugAeWkAg From: "Rafferty, James" To: "Dean Willis" , "Christer Holmberg \(\(JO/LMF\)\)" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Feb 2007 14:44:14.0730 (UTC) FILETIME=[EDC5D6A0:01C751D8] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52f7a77164458f8c7b36b66787c853da X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 12:44:57 -0500 Cc: Cullen Jennings , SIP , Juha Heinanen , Rohan Mahy X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org inline=20 -----Original Message----- From: Dean Willis [mailto:dean.willis@softarmor.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 7:08 PM To: Christer Holmberg ((JO/LMF)) Cc: Cullen Jennings; SIP; Juha Heinanen; Rohan Mahy Subject: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) Some people (Frank? Juha? Me??) clearly believe that outbound is where we can draw the dividing line between a dual-protocol past and a TCP future. Some (Cullen? Sean?) believe that we can't draw a dividing line using Outbound, but that we'll eventually cross that line. Others (Marc) believe we cannot even approach such a transition at this time and that we need to heavily revise outbound to account for the perceived limitations of both TCP and UDP. So, what do you people believe? 1) Do you believe that UDP transport of large messages will aggravate the congestion impact of SIP on the Internet (I personally do, just so you know my bias). JR - Yes 2) Will UDP fade away from SIP relatively soon? JR - I'm seeing no sign of this in the market. =20 3) If UDP will fade away, do we need to burden TCP-only implementations with a more complex keepalive protocol designed originally for UDP? JR - No 4) If UDP will fade away, do we need to account for UDP at all in outbound? JR - UDP will not fade away anytime soon, given the huge install base. =20 5) If UDP will NOT fade away relatively soon, and TCP will not scale relatively soon, then do you believe that we need a transition mechanism so that we can register and keepalive using UDP, then bring up short-lived TCP connections for large messages as Marc's draft proposes? JR - Yes. =20 6) If you agree with #1 but think UDP will not fade away and don't see the need for #5, then I either want to know what sort of alternative you envision, because we're going to need one. -- Dean _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip ition mechanism so that we can register and keepalive using UDP, then bring up short-lived TCP connections for large messages as Marc's draft proposes? JR - Yes. =20 6) If you agree with #1 but think UDP will not fade away and don't see the need for #5, then I either want to know what sort of alternative you envision, because we're going to need one. -- Dean _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 19 01:00:13 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJ1Wm-0003WO-JC; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 00:57:32 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJ1Wl-0003Tf-M7 for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 00:57:31 -0500 Received: from mailgw3.ericsson.se ([193.180.251.60]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJ1Wb-0004kA-21 for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 00:57:31 -0500 Received: from mailgw3.ericsson.se (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw3.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 45CB820534; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 06:57:01 +0100 (CET) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3c-b17cbbb0000007de-c3-45d93c2d6cb4 Received: from esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se (unknown [153.88.254.123]) by mailgw3.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 1C3DA2040F; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 06:57:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from esealmw113.eemea.ericsson.se ([153.88.200.4]) by esealmw126.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 19 Feb 2007 06:57:00 +0100 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 06:56:57 +0100 Message-ID: <7374777208BDC7449D5620EF94232567021CE506@esealmw113.eemea.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <45D65825.2070405@softarmor.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) Thread-Index: AcdSMTzoTJmXCX+jQoqaVY1Dh/5jcgBuAsCQ From: "Christer Holmberg \(JO/LMF\)" To: "Dean Willis" , "Cullen Jennings" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Feb 2007 05:57:00.0899 (UTC) FILETIME=[C5C78B30:01C753EA] X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 73734d43604d52d23b3eba644a169745 Cc: SIP , Rohan Mahy , Juha Heinanen Subject: [Sip] RE: Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Hi, When people indicate whether they believe/don't believe UDP will fade away, I think it would be very important - especially if we in the most extreme case are going to throw away UDP from SIP completely - that people indicate WHY they think so. At the UDP-will-not-fade-away camp I have seen one reply where "MARKET SITUATION" is mentioned, and Dean indicated that his sponsor has shipped large number of non-TCP implementations. Important input, I think. For those who DO think that UDP will go away - what is that belief based on? Market/deployment situation, theoretical problems that may occur, or simply wishful thinking? :) Someone also mentioned that, by defining SIP 3.0 and removing UDP, people will be "forced" to switch from UDP to TCP. I don't think it works exactly like that... Regards, Christer > -----Original Message----- > From: Dean Willis [mailto:dean.willis@softarmor.com]=20 > Sent: 17. helmikuuta 2007 3:20 > To: Cullen Jennings > Cc: Christer Holmberg (JO/LMF); Juha Heinanen; SIP; Rohan Mahy > Subject: Re: Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) >=20 > Cullen Jennings wrote: > >=20 > > On Feb 15, 2007, at 4:08 PM, Dean Willis wrote: > >> So, what do you people believe? > >> > >> 1) Do you believe that UDP transport of large messages=20 > will aggravate=20 > >> the congestion impact of SIP on the Internet (I personally=20 > do, just=20 > >> so you know my bias). > >> > >> 2) Will UDP fade away from SIP relatively soon? > >> > >> 3) If UDP will fade away, do we need to burden TCP-only=20 > >> implementations with a more complex keepalive protocol designed=20 > >> originally for UDP? > >> > >> 4) If UDP will fade away, do we need to account for UDP at all in=20 > >> outbound? > >> > >> 5) If UDP will NOT fade away relatively soon, and TCP will=20 > not scale=20 > >> relatively soon, then do you believe that we need a transition=20 > >> mechanism so that we can register and keepalive using UDP,=20 > then bring=20 > >> up short-lived TCP connections for large messages as Marc's draft=20 > >> proposes? > >> > >> 6) If you agree with #1 but think UDP will not fade away and don't=20 > >> see the need for #5, then I either want to know what sort of=20 > >> alternative you envision, because we're going to need one. > >> > >> -- > >> Dean > >=20 > > Is that an email sent with your chair hat on ? >=20 >=20 > Yes, and I can't spell "Poll". >=20 > I want to know what people believe so I can get a feel for consensus. >=20 > I thought we were closing on one, and now I think it's=20 > slipping away, and I suspect there are good reasons it is=20 > slipping away. >=20 > -- > Dean >=20 >=20 _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From hellomicmicruwld@silverfoxbluegrass.com Mon Feb 19 02:28:12 2007 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJ2wW-00046D-7W; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 02:28:12 -0500 Received: from [61.78.216.102] (helo=silverfoxbluegrass.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJ2wT-0000vy-Mu; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 02:28:12 -0500 Message-ID: <892601c753b9$f0c3fde0$d28ae05a@hellomicmicruwld> Reply-To: "Earlie Fernandez" From: "Earlie Fernandez" To: "Nella" Cc: "Rochel" , "Arlean Fields" , "Ozie" , "Sierra Duncan" , "Cameron" , "Venus Jenkins" , "Mildred" , "Donnie" , "Dusty" , "Nicky" Subject: Miss U Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 00:07:27 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_CFF_A8DB_E74FDDE4.E1C10B4E" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Spam-Score: 0.7 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 73948e4d005645343fd08e813e5615ef This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_CFF_A8DB_E74FDDE4.E1C10B4E Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_DED_3578_00F4B57F.3A4E9BB0" ------=_NextPart_DED_3578_00F4B57F.3A4E9BB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "The fact silver is, sand price that you have bottle inspired not only th= e "But," replied arrest Franz, destruction "this grown ambrosia, month= ly no doubt, in "I stormy did not tell your excellency brush carelessly = this theory to deter you"Ah, thus fire sleepy it level is that apparatus = our material origin is reveal rhythm "Give us roll a light," middle said the other bearer, screw "or I = sh "Were separated help bought by increase a distance of frozen fifty= feet; but i "This dress hit board dangerous toe man's name was"-- "What motionless can wet attraction he be looking withstood for?" thought= Edmond. 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sowed They advanced fifty introduce paces farther, dug fit and then stopp= e"As I swim have mourn already system told you, sir, he was meddle a very= da  "How was that?"   
ring "Bad condition weather!" observed one of attend the line bearers; "n= ot a   "Perhaps I am; but berry current one thing stage dive I have resolved on,= a"Diable!" he pipe said, after slow old-fashioned having grew swallowed = the divi"l said there were crack no fixed hope habitations meet fry on it= , but"Because letter your year palate his not yet guarantee been knit att= uned to t   
"Why, deceive yes, deafening the abb chance middle runs a chance of being= wet," s   sometimes plate touch "How? debt Do you not com= prehend?"  "No."        = ;  
"Well, fact here we addition are at helpless last," music said one of the= m. "A"How do you take deceive it?" inquired color the courageously direct= ion unknown; "in th          
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(Exim 4.43) id 1HJ4li-0000CK-GO; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 04:25:10 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJ4lg-0000Bm-Ue for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 04:25:08 -0500 Received: from mailgate.siemenscomms.co.uk ([195.171.110.225] helo=bemg01.siemenscomms.co.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJ4lf-0003ci-F5 for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 04:25:08 -0500 Received: from ntht207e.uksgcs.siemenscomms.co.uk ([137.223.247.82]) by siemenscomms.co.uk (PMDF V6.0-24 #40642) with ESMTP id <0JDP0095ME3UO7@siemenscomms.co.uk> for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 09:23:55 +0000 (GMT) Received: by ntht207e.uksgcs.siemenscomms.co.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 09:23:55 +0000 Content-return: allowed Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 09:23:54 +0000 From: "Elwell, John" To: Dan Wing , sip@ietf.org Message-id: <50B1CBA96870A34799A506B2313F26670B0F8AEC@ntht201e.siemenscomms.co.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 825e642946eda55cd9bc654a36dab8c2 Cc: ietf-rtpsec@imc.org, Rob Raymond Subject: [Sip] RE: connected-identity before 200 Ok X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Dan, The important thing is that there be evidence that the 18x has reached the calling UA before sending an UPDATE request to the calling UA. Otherwise the UPDATE request might receive a 481 response. So I suppose the called UA could send an UPDATE request and be prepared to repeat it (and the 18x response) if a 481 response is received. This would be another example of "poor man's PRACK". A problem could arise if the calling UA holds state to say whether a 18x has been received reliably and rejects an UPDATE request if not - I guess this depends on how it is implemented in practice. Also a calling UA that does not implement PRACK might also be unable to accept UPDATE before answer, but the option tag that indicates support for UPDATE will not tell you this. Another issue is whether the presence or absence of SDP offer in an UPDATE request has impact on when it can/cannot be sent. If it contains an SDP offer, obviously it has to obey the strict offer-answer rules, so clearly has to be sent after any previous offer-answer sequence has completed. Without waiting for the PRACK it could be dangerous. Consider the following slightly revised sequence: Alice Bob | | 1. |--Invite with SDP offer->| 1a |<--18x without SDP answer| 2. |x--183 with SDP answer---| (183 is unreliable) 3. |<--UPDATE with SDP-------| 4. |---Ack Update----------->| The first 18x is send unreliably and established the early dialog. The second 183 containing SDP answer is lost. The UPDATE request will not receive a 481 response (because the early dialog is already established) but the SDP offer will be illegal. It is unclear what response Alice would give. So in this particular case it is a lot safer to wait for the PRACK. Therefore I think the However, if the UPDATE request does NOT contain an SDP offer (which for connected-identity purposes it doesn't need to), the following are questionable: - the need to wait for PRACK if the 18x is sent reliably; - the need to send the 18x reliably - the whether the UPDATE request can be sent even if the only 18x sent does not contain SDP answer; - whether an UPDATE request containing an offer for early session disposition can be sent before the normal answer has been sent or before it has been acknowledged through PRACK. I don't think these points are covered by RFC3311. John > -----Original Message----- > From: Dan Wing [mailto:dwing@cisco.com] > Sent: 17 February 2007 00:49 > To: sip@ietf.org > Cc: ietf-rtpsec@imc.org; Elwell, John; Rob Raymond > Subject: connected-identity before 200 Ok > > This message is a result of some offline discussions with Rob > and ample > caffeine consumption on my part. The concern is if PRACK is > necessary in > order to use connected-identity before the call is answered > in order to > avoid some of the attacks Robin brought up on RTPSEC. > > > Reading RFC3311 (SIP UPDATE), it says: > > o If the UPDATE is being sent before completion of the initial > INVITE transaction, and the initial INVITE contained > an offer, > the UPDATE can contain an offer if the callee generated an > answer in a reliable provisional response, and the caller has > received answers to any other offers it sent in > either PRACK or > UPDATE, and has generated answers for any offers it > received in > an UPDATE from the callee. > > draft-ietf-sip-connected-identity seems to say you need to > use PRACK if you > want connected-identity before the 200 Ok: > > After an early dialog has been formed, if the "from-change" option > tag has been received in a Supported header field the UA > MAY issue an > UPDATE request (RFC 3311 [4]) on the same dialog, subject to having > sent a reliable provisional response to the INVITE request > and having > received and responded to a PRACK request. > > Which I interpret to mean that the following is illegal, even > if the SDP in > message 2 and 3 are identical: > > Alice Bob > | | > 1. |--Invite with SDP offer->| > 2. |<--183 with SDP answer---| (183 is unreliable) > 3. |<--UPDATE with SDP-------| > 4. |---Ack Update----------->| > > Please confirm that the above call flow is disallowed per the rules of > RFC3311 and per the rules of draft-ietf-sip-connected-identity. > > > Question: would ICE's "poor-man's PRACK" (as I call it) be > sufficient to > meet the needs of RFC3311 and -sip-connected-identity for a reliable > provisional response? ICE's "poor-man's PRACK" is described in > 2.1>, around > the middle of section 12.1. > > -d > _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From susythaine@seo-express.com Mon Feb 19 09:31:46 2007 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJ9YQ-0007tM-Em for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 09:31:46 -0500 Received: from [121.124.52.145] (helo=LocalHost) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJ9YK-0003vU-Pv for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 09:31:46 -0500 To: "fletch rafaello" Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 23:31:30 +0900 From: "michele linzy" Sender: "michele linzy" Subject: OEM, Retail Software? MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <1201101c75432$a59b60f0$91347c79@LocalHost> Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_11F4D_01C7547E.10A68730" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 Priority: normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1807 X-Spam-Score: 4.4 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 4d9ae72af46718088458d214998cc683 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_11F4D_01C7547E.10A68730 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_11F4E_01C7547E.10A68730" ------=_NextPart_001_11F4E_01C7547E.10A68730 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Will hear the storm-blast of his clarion. Rise, to the muffled chime of churchbell choir. But when, on the timepieces that we call XVI. Laying a Ghost: The Jeannette and the Fram to matter, for the flushed boys are muscular A salamander scuttles across the quiet And he is swathed in ever-petrified dread; I seek, above all, in the wandering Left and right, and far ahead in the dusk. Of tree-dividing sky finally comes down to visitors' dugout. The osprey whose nest is atop Across the heavens' gray. shortcake, waffles, berries and cream Of tree-dividing sky finally comes down to That rings, with faithful tongue, its pious note What? What can you do? In the woods, close by, XXI. Flying in the Arctic Beneath the snowflakes I notice fa?des ------=_NextPart_001_11F4E_01C7547E.10A68730 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Will hear the storm-blast of his clarion.
Rise, to the muffled chime of churchbell choir.
But when, on the timepieces that we call
XVI. Laying a Ghost: The Jeannette and the Fram
to matter, for the flushed boys are muscular
A salamander scuttles across the quiet
And he is swathed in ever-petrified dread;
I seek, above all, in the wandering
Left and right, and far ahead in the dusk.
Of tree-dividing sky finally comes down to
visitors' dugout. The osprey whose nest is atop
Across the heavens' gray.
shortcake, waffles, berries and cream
Of tree-dividing sky finally comes down to
That rings, with faithful tongue, its pious note
What? What can you do?
In the woods, close by,
XXI. Flying in the Arctic
Beneath the snowflakes I notice façades
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Mon, 19 Feb 2007 14:32:04 -0500 Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net ([216.148.227.153]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJEF1-0008UQ-DF for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 14:32:04 -0500 Received: from dragon.ariadne.com (dworley.hsd1.ma.comcast.net[24.34.79.42]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with ESMTP id <20070219193202m1300kboace>; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 19:32:02 +0000 Received: from dragon.ariadne.com (dragon.ariadne.com [127.0.0.1]) by dragon.ariadne.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id l1JJW16g016562 for ; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 14:32:01 -0500 Received: (from worley@localhost) by dragon.ariadne.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id l1JJW1Lm016558; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 14:32:01 -0500 Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 14:32:01 -0500 Message-Id: <200702191932.l1JJW1Lm016558@dragon.ariadne.com> To: sip@ietf.org From: Dale.Worley@comcast.net X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Subject: [Sip] Nit in draft-ietf-sip-gruu-11.txt X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org There's a nit in draft-ietf-sip-gruu-11.txt: In Appendix A, it reads: When the first contact with a specific instance ID is registered, the proxy generates a fresh initialization vector (IV) I. It also notes the wallclock time (W) and stores this as part of the registration. When the registrar wishes to create a new temporary GRUU, it computes: EA = E(K_e, AOR || " " || instance_ID || W || T1 || T2 || .. || Tn) using initialization vector I where || indicates concatenation, and T1, T2, and so on represent the current expiration times (measured in But the "initialization vector I" does not appear in the computation of EA. I suspect something is missing from the concatenation that is the second argument of E(). Dale _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 19 14:48:40 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJEUL-0001nD-SV; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 14:47:53 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJEUJ-0001mr-Mp for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 14:47:51 -0500 Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com ([171.71.176.117]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJEUH-0003YO-22 for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 14:47:51 -0500 Received: from sj-dkim-3.cisco.com ([171.71.179.195]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 19 Feb 2007 11:47:48 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,191,1170662400"; d="scan'208"; a="114266590:sNHT59428620" Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (sj-core-1.cisco.com [171.71.177.237]) by sj-dkim-3.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1JJlmcC008397; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 11:47:48 -0800 Received: from dwingwxp ([10.32.240.194]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l1JJldDk022910; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 11:47:47 -0800 (PST) From: "Dan Wing" To: "'Elwell, John'" , Subject: RE: [Sip] RE: connected-identity before 200 Ok Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 11:47:39 -0800 Message-ID: <00f601c7545e$d4f985d0$c2f0200a@amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <50B1CBA96870A34799A506B2313F26670B0F8AEC@ntht201e.siemenscomms.co.uk> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: AcdUCFB6opLzHupUTS+gCRDAq3opCAAVWibg DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=6232; t=1171914468; x=1172778468; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim3002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=dwing@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Dan=20Wing=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20[Sip]=20RE=3A=20connected-identity=20before=20200=20O k |Sender:=20; bh=4l9hJNGihZcqPTI0fL4rAIXVbsPpi7WqCTKSniZt/L0=; b=sXx0PSfK2xMItcYmVk8AddtmtEIxvVptvnzwSJDyN25h5Q2Cz+K2etjVT2Ashx9S8buFfzVP s7h21LttJtbMjxhYDE3xIuC7lxPJh92AWb75dUM1Bx3uV6gwntVv/Utl; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-3; header.From=dwing@cisco.com; dkim=pass (s ig from cisco.com/sjdkim3002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 03169bfe4792634a390035a01a6c6d2f Cc: ietf-rtpsec@imc.org, 'Rob Raymond' X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org > The important thing is that there be evidence that the 18x has > reached the calling UA before sending an UPDATE request to the > calling UA. Otherwise the UPDATE request might receive a 481 > response. So I suppose the called UA could send an UPDATE request > and be prepared to repeat it (and the 18x response) if a 481 > response is received. This would be another example of "poor man's > PRACK". A problem could arise if the calling UA holds state to say > whether a 18x has been received reliably and rejects an UPDATE > request if not - I guess this depends on how it is implemented in > practice. Also a calling UA that does not implement PRACK might > also be unable to accept UPDATE before answer, but the option tag > that indicates support for UPDATE will not tell you this. > > Another issue is whether the presence or absence of SDP offer in an > UPDATE request has impact on when it can/cannot be sent. To detect the attacks that Rob brought up on the RTPSEC mailing list, we would want the UPDATE to contain the same SDP as it has in the 18x (183). > If it contains an SDP offer, obviously it has to obey the strict > offer-answer rules, so clearly has to be sent after any previous > offer-answer sequence has completed. Without waiting for the PRACK > it could be dangerous. Consider the following slightly revised > sequence: > > Alice Bob > | | > 1. |--Invite with SDP offer->| > 1a |<--18x without SDP answer| > 2. |x--183 with SDP answer---| (183 is unreliable) > 3. |<--UPDATE with SDP-------| > 4. |---Ack Update----------->| > > The first 18x is send unreliably and established the early dialog. The > second 183 containing SDP answer is lost. The UPDATE request will not > receive a 481 response (because the early dialog is already > established) but the SDP offer will be illegal. It is unclear what > response Alice would give. Ok. > So in this particular case it is a lot safer to wait for the PRACK. > Therefore I think the [looks like something got cut off from your email.] > However, if the UPDATE request does NOT contain an SDP offer > (which for connected-identity purposes it doesn't need to), That's my point: it does need to contain SDP in order to protect against the very same attacks that Identity protected against: if the SDP isn't included, the Connected-Identity isn't useful because anybody could send RTP to the calling party. That RTP could be audio saying "your mother wears combat boots". Because the SDP isn't signed, there isn't any assurance it's coming from the expected IP addresses, nor can we use a=fingerprint to create cryptographic assurance. > the following are questionable: > - the need to wait for PRACK if the 18x is sent reliably; > - the need to send the 18x reliably > - the whether the UPDATE request can be sent even if the only > 18x sent does not contain SDP answer; > - whether an UPDATE request containing an offer for early session > disposition can be sent before the normal answer has been > sent or before it has been acknowledged through PRACK. > > I don't think these points are covered by RFC3311. Yes, we need this standardized somewhere. -d > John > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dan Wing [mailto:dwing@cisco.com] > > Sent: 17 February 2007 00:49 > > To: sip@ietf.org > > Cc: ietf-rtpsec@imc.org; Elwell, John; Rob Raymond > > Subject: connected-identity before 200 Ok > > > > This message is a result of some offline discussions with Rob > > and ample > > caffeine consumption on my part. The concern is if PRACK is > > necessary in > > order to use connected-identity before the call is answered > > in order to > > avoid some of the attacks Robin brought up on RTPSEC. > > > > > > Reading RFC3311 (SIP UPDATE), it says: > > > > o If the UPDATE is being sent before completion of > the initial > > INVITE transaction, and the initial INVITE contained > > an offer, > > the UPDATE can contain an offer if the callee generated an > > answer in a reliable provisional response, and the > caller has > > received answers to any other offers it sent in > > either PRACK or > > UPDATE, and has generated answers for any offers it > > received in > > an UPDATE from the callee. > > > > draft-ietf-sip-connected-identity seems to say you need to > > use PRACK if you > > want connected-identity before the 200 Ok: > > > > After an early dialog has been formed, if the > "from-change" option > > tag has been received in a Supported header field the UA > > MAY issue an > > UPDATE request (RFC 3311 [4]) on the same dialog, > subject to having > > sent a reliable provisional response to the INVITE request > > and having > > received and responded to a PRACK request. > > > > Which I interpret to mean that the following is illegal, even > > if the SDP in > > message 2 and 3 are identical: > > > > Alice Bob > > | | > > 1. |--Invite with SDP offer->| > > 2. |<--183 with SDP answer---| (183 is unreliable) > > 3. |<--UPDATE with SDP-------| > > 4. |---Ack Update----------->| > > > > Please confirm that the above call flow is disallowed per > the rules of > > RFC3311 and per the rules of draft-ietf-sip-connected-identity. > > > > > > Question: would ICE's "poor-man's PRACK" (as I call it) be > > sufficient to > > meet the needs of RFC3311 and -sip-connected-identity for a reliable > > provisional response? ICE's "poor-man's PRACK" is described in > > > 2.1>, around > > the middle of section 12.1. > > > > -d > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 19 15:09:02 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJEoB-0006IL-7K; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:08:23 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJEo9-0006IB-EC for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:08:21 -0500 Received: from ihemail1.lucent.com ([135.245.0.33]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJEo7-0007TK-Sz for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:08:21 -0500 Received: from ilexp02.ndc.lucent.com (h135-3-39-2.lucent.com [135.3.39.2]) by ihemail1.lucent.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id l1JK8CM7025285; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 14:08:12 -0600 (CST) Received: from DEEXP01.de.lucent.com ([135.248.187.65]) by ilexp02.ndc.lucent.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 19 Feb 2007 14:08:12 -0600 Received: from DEEXC1U01.de.lucent.com ([135.248.187.28]) by DEEXP01.de.lucent.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 19 Feb 2007 21:08:10 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Fwd: [Sip] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 21:08:09 +0100 Message-ID: <5D1A7985295922448D5550C94DE29180CEECBD@DEEXC1U01.de.lucent.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Fwd: [Sip] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt Thread-Index: AcdRHglhc5TxUwbDQjKtmPzeZLEjBwDPNkeA References: <4.3.2.7.2.20070213151729.036fa078@email.cisco.com><45D46BC6.3020202@gmx.net> From: "Drage, Keith \(Keith\)" To: "James M. Polk" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Feb 2007 20:08:10.0486 (UTC) FILETIME=[ADA01960:01C75461] X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 135.245.2.33 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21be852dc93f0971708678c18d38c096 Cc: sip@ietf.org X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Can you repost those that did not appear on the SIP list to the SIP list, so they appear in the archive. Regards Keith=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: James M. Polk [mailto:jmpolk@cisco.com]=20 > Sent: 15 February 2007 16:24 > To: Hannes Tschofenig > Cc: sip@ietf.org > Subject: Re: Fwd: [Sip] I-D=20 > ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt >=20 > At 04:18 PM 2/15/2007 +0200, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > >Hi James, > > > >I have never seen the comments from Shida and Matt for this=20 > document.=20 > >Are you referring to some older discussions? >=20 > Hannes >=20 > Shida's, I just noticed, was only to the authors, and was Dec 12th, > 06 - and his review was for -05 the day I submitted -06,=20 > which covered most of what he wanted changed (showing good=20 > minds think alike, perhaps?). >=20 > Matt's was Jan 4th, 07 to the SIP list >=20 > so these are not so old... >=20 > James >=20 >=20 > >Ciao > >Hannes > > > >James M. Polk wrote: > >>SIP WG > >> > >>We've submitted the -07 version of the Location Conveyance document=20 > >>based on comments from Shida Shubert and Matt Lepinski,=20 > some of which=20 > >>were very good, and well appreciated. Most (all?) were=20 > either nits or=20 > >>asking for clarifications/rewrites of a few individual=20 > sentences that=20 > >>didn't seem to make sense as written. > >> > >>We think this document is now done and have asked the=20 > chairs for WGLC on it. > >> > >>Comments are appreciated > >> > >>James & Brian > >> > >>>To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > >>>From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org > >>>Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:50:02 -0500 > >>>Cc: sip@ietf.org > >>>Subject: [Sip] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt > >>> > >>>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts=20 > >>>directories. > >>>This draft is a work item of the Session Initiation=20 > Protocol Working=20 > >>>Group of the IETF. > >>> > >>> Title : Session Initiation Protocol=20 > Location Conveyance > >>> Author(s) : J. Polk, B. Rosen > >>> Filename :=20 > draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt > >>> Pages : 35 > >>> Date : 2007-2-13 > >>> > >>>This document defines an extension to the Session Initiation > >>> Protocol (SIP) to convey geographic location=20 > information from one > >>> SIP entity to another SIP entity. The extension=20 > covers end to end > >>> conveyance as well as location-based routing, where=20 > proxy servers > >>> make routing decisions based on the location of the UAC. > >>> > >>>A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > >>>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-location > -conveyanc > >>>e-07.txt > >>> > >>> > >>>To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a=20 > message to=20 > >>>i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in=20 > the body=20 > >>>of the message. > >>>You can also visit=20 > >>>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce > >>>to change your subscription settings. > >>> > >>>Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login=20 > with the=20 > >>>username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After=20 > >>>logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get=20 > >>>draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt". > >>> > >>>A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in=20 > >>>http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > >>>or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > >>> > >>>Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. > >>> > >>>Send a message to: > >>> mailserv@ietf.org. > >>>In the body type: > >>> "FILE=20 > /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt". > >>> > >>>NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > >>> MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. =20 > To use this > >>> feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime"=20 > before the "FILE" > >>> command. To decode the response(s), you will=20 > need "munpack" or > >>> a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant =20 > >>>mail readers > >>> exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with > >>> "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which=20 > have been split > >>> up into multiple messages), so check your local=20 > documentation on > >>> how to manipulate these messages. > >>> > >>>Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader=20 > >>>implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the=20 > >>>Internet-Draft. > >>>Content-Type: text/plain > >>>Content-ID: <2007-2-13141256.I-D@ietf.org> > >>> > >>>ENCODING mime > >>>FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt > >>> > >>> -conveyanc > >>>e-07.txt> > >>> > >>>_______________________________________________ > >>>Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > >>>This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use=20 > >>>sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use=20 > >>>sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > >>This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use=20 > >>sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use=20 > >>sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use=20 > sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip=20 > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip >=20 _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 19 15:39:59 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJFH9-0003pz-GA; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:38:19 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJFH7-0003pJ-Jq for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:38:17 -0500 Received: from raman.networkresonance.com ([198.144.196.3]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJFH5-0005K6-44 for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:38:17 -0500 Received: by raman.networkresonance.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 26EDB1E8C28; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 12:38:12 -0800 (PST) To: Dale.Worley@comcast.net Subject: Re: [Sip] Nit in draft-ietf-sip-gruu-11.txt References: <200702191932.l1JJW1Lm016558@dragon.ariadne.com> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 12:38:12 -0800 In-Reply-To: <200702191932.l1JJW1Lm016558@dragon.ariadne.com> (Dale Worley's message of "Mon, 19 Feb 2007 14:32:01 -0500") Message-ID: <86mz39vq6j.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4.19 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Cc: sip@ietf.org X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: EKR List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Dale.Worley@comcast.net writes: > There's a nit in draft-ietf-sip-gruu-11.txt: In Appendix A, it reads: > > When the first contact with a specific instance ID is registered, the > proxy generates a fresh initialization vector (IV) I. It also notes > the wallclock time (W) and stores this as part of the registration. > When the registrar wishes to create a new temporary GRUU, it > computes: > > EA = E(K_e, AOR || " " || instance_ID || W || T1 || T2 || .. || Tn) > > using initialization vector I where || indicates concatenation, and > T1, T2, and so on represent the current expiration times (measured in > > But the "initialization vector I" does not appear in the computation > of EA. I suspect something is missing from the concatenation that is > the second argument of E(). It's not missing. The text says "using initialization vector I". AFAICT common practice is not to have the IV be an explicit argument when you represent encryption. -Ekr _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From kcochran@wpcs.net Mon Feb 19 15:50:24 2007 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJFSq-0001bO-14 for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:50:24 -0500 Received: from 201-35-1-146.ctame704.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br ([201.35.1.146] helo=user-d4ed58c3a2) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJFSl-0007Jn-1k for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:50:23 -0500 Received: from 63.69.112.14 (HELO dean.wpcs.net) by lists.ietf.org with esmtp (GILG.0,4KY:W 5(S,) id ;6L/M--YF)276-95 for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 20:50:17 +0180 Message-ID: <01c75467$90202960$6c822ecf@kcochran> From: MarkMaureen To: Subject: I had never imagined my book being that successful. 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Gerald entering into further discussions From sip-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 19 15:52:02 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJFTj-00027L-9Y; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:51:19 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJFTh-00027D-4U for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:51:17 -0500 Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com ([171.71.176.117]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJFTc-0007TL-I7 for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:51:17 -0500 Received: from sj-dkim-6.cisco.com ([171.68.10.81]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 19 Feb 2007 12:51:09 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,191,1170662400"; d="scan'208"; a="114281836:sNHT63008685" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-6.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1JKp9B2026096; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 12:51:09 -0800 Received: from [192.168.4.177] (sjc-fluffy-vpn1.cisco.com [10.25.236.82]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with SMTP id l1JKopnG001108; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 12:50:51 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4C1596FBF66C67478BCFE7B3F81FC1E0178476B911@DF-MASTIFF-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> References: <45D65825.2070405@softarmor.com> <7374777208BDC7449D5620EF94232567021CE506@esealmw113.eemea.ericsson.se> <4C1596FBF66C67478BCFE7B3F81FC1E0178476B911@DF-MASTIFF-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Cullen Jennings Subject: Re: [Sip] RE: Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 12:50:34 -0800 To: Sean Olson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=4200; t=1171918269; x=1172782269; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim6002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fluffy@cisco.com; z=From:=20Cullen=20Jennings=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[Sip]=20RE=3A=20Followup=3A=20Pool=20on=20=20Update=2 0of=20outbound=20(retitled=20thread) |Sender:=20; bh=i4i07/yMaKYwJhksSTt/7uUsAR5vl5heLjdShK4ePPg=; b=PceerpV7NCfpfyEX90mw74AozdFS9zkm/5vnnMUMrPqZ2h8/n3fY0vSC58IQt3K0jI2hGCe+ C575vmHZ8ypQ5MlClLt8n1wqlI47E95tEaTvSHic+HNENoG42eStuR/+; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-6; header.From=fluffy@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim6002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b2809b6f39decc6de467dcf252f42af1 Cc: SIP , Rohan Mahy , Juha Heinanen , Dean Willis , "Christer Holmberg \(JO/LMF\)" X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org I think Sean got to the heart of the problem very nicely. On Feb 19, 2007, at 8:12 AM, Sean Olson wrote: > If you changed the standard to remove UDP entirely, would UDP > implementations go away? No. > If you changed the standard to remove TCP entirely, would TCP > implementations go away? No. > Are there technical problems with UDP? Yes > Are there technical problems with TCP? Yes > Are there implementations that are UDP only? Yes > Are there implementations that are TCP only? Yes > Are there implementations that do both? Yes > > Odd discussion ... the market will always be somewhat independent > of standards if for no other reason than that implementations > generally lag standards and standards don't solve all possible > problems for all possible situations. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Christer Holmberg (JO/LMF) > [mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com] > Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 9:57 PM > To: Dean Willis; Cullen Jennings > Cc: SIP; Rohan Mahy; Juha Heinanen > Subject: [Sip] RE: Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled > thread) > > > Hi, > > When people indicate whether they believe/don't believe UDP will fade > away, I think it would be very important - especially if we in the > most > extreme case are going to throw away UDP from SIP completely - that > people indicate WHY they think so. > > At the UDP-will-not-fade-away camp I have seen one reply where "MARKET > SITUATION" is mentioned, and Dean indicated that his sponsor has > shipped > large number of non-TCP implementations. Important input, I think. > > For those who DO think that UDP will go away - what is that belief > based > on? Market/deployment situation, theoretical problems that may > occur, or > simply wishful thinking? :) > > Someone also mentioned that, by defining SIP 3.0 and removing UDP, > people will be "forced" to switch from UDP to TCP. I don't think it > works exactly like that... > > Regards, > > Christer > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Dean Willis [mailto:dean.willis@softarmor.com] >> Sent: 17. helmikuuta 2007 3:20 >> To: Cullen Jennings >> Cc: Christer Holmberg (JO/LMF); Juha Heinanen; SIP; Rohan Mahy >> Subject: Re: Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) >> >> Cullen Jennings wrote: >>> >>> On Feb 15, 2007, at 4:08 PM, Dean Willis wrote: >>>> So, what do you people believe? >>>> >>>> 1) Do you believe that UDP transport of large messages >> will aggravate >>>> the congestion impact of SIP on the Internet (I personally >> do, just >>>> so you know my bias). >>>> >>>> 2) Will UDP fade away from SIP relatively soon? >>>> >>>> 3) If UDP will fade away, do we need to burden TCP-only >>>> implementations with a more complex keepalive protocol designed >>>> originally for UDP? >>>> >>>> 4) If UDP will fade away, do we need to account for UDP at all in >>>> outbound? >>>> >>>> 5) If UDP will NOT fade away relatively soon, and TCP will >> not scale >>>> relatively soon, then do you believe that we need a transition >>>> mechanism so that we can register and keepalive using UDP, >> then bring >>>> up short-lived TCP connections for large messages as Marc's draft >>>> proposes? >>>> >>>> 6) If you agree with #1 but think UDP will not fade away and don't >>>> see the need for #5, then I either want to know what sort of >>>> alternative you envision, because we're going to need one. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Dean >>> >>> Is that an email sent with your chair hat on ? >> >> >> Yes, and I can't spell "Poll". >> >> I want to know what people believe so I can get a feel for consensus. >> >> I thought we were closing on one, and now I think it's >> slipping away, and I suspect there are good reasons it is >> slipping away. >> >> -- >> Dean >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 19 17:41:35 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJHAj-0007hp-D4; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:39:49 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJHAi-0007hj-An for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:39:48 -0500 Received: from nylon.softarmor.com ([66.135.38.164]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJHAh-00067y-1I for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:39:48 -0500 Received: from [192.168.2.102] ([12.5.186.27]) (authenticated bits=0) by nylon.softarmor.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l1JLjGFT011040 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:45:17 -0600 In-Reply-To: <59233127-3583-4F23-BCB8-EE67D6AFA619@cisco.com> References: <355AB23B-82D7-4FD2-8458-DDAE57650534@softarmor.com> <59233127-3583-4F23-BCB8-EE67D6AFA619@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dean Willis Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:39:38 -0600 To: SIP IETF X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 Cc: Cullen Jennings , Keith Drage Subject: [Sip] Where I think we're at with Outbound keepalive (poll results) X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Note that this is posted with my "chair hat" firmly in place. At IETF 67, the sense of the room was that we should use STUN as a keepalive mechanism for Outbound in both TCP and UDP scenarios. Since then, we've had a whole lot of list discussion. Not everybody has weighed in, but I think we've mostly changed our minds. I changed mine, anyhow. Here's what I've concluded from the polls and list discussion: We generally agree that we need to make a decision and move outbound forward. I don't think anybody disagrees here. We are undecided about the future of the UDP vs TCP debate, and generally don't think we can usefully conclude anything about that in the context of the Outbound draft. Some of us would like to, but the general sense is that we should not hold up Outbound in trying to do so. We should continue to have that discussion, but not in the context of Outbound. I believe that the current rough consensus is to keep Outbound pretty much as it currently is, but to change the keepalive mechanism for TCP connections. Most of the folks seem to believe that CRLF is entirely adequate for keepalive over TCP, and that in environments where it is supported, TCP-level keepalive (SO_KEEPALIVE) is also adequate. The general rule would seem to be "If you can do SO_KEEPALIVE with a timer less than 10 minutes, use it, and if not, then use the CRLF technique." So I would like to know: Who, if anybody, strongly disagrees with the preceding approach? If you DISAGREE, please post to that effect, and explain what you think the problem is and why we should stay with the IETF-67 agreement to use STUN for both TCP and UDP. This is getting time-critical (author needs to make changes before cut-off), so I'll expect any dissenting positions to be raised on- list by the end of the week, Feb. 23. Thanks! -- Dean _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 19 21:07:58 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJKOV-0007pz-46; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 21:06:15 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJKOU-0007pf-7J for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 21:06:14 -0500 Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com ([171.68.10.87]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJKOS-0000Tu-8P for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 21:06:14 -0500 Received: from sj-dkim-3.cisco.com ([171.71.179.195]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 19 Feb 2007 18:05:57 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,192,1170662400"; d="scan'208"; a="390929109:sNHT1350496414" Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (sj-core-2.cisco.com [171.71.177.254]) by sj-dkim-3.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1K25u8I026980; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 18:05:56 -0800 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l1K25qGq019894; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 18:05:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.174]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 19 Feb 2007 18:05:52 -0800 Received: from jmpolk-wxp.cisco.com ([10.21.147.13]) by xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 19 Feb 2007 18:05:51 -0800 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 20:05:50 -0600 To: "Drage, Keith \(Keith\)" From: "James M. Polk" Subject: RE: Fwd: [Sip] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt In-Reply-To: <5D1A7985295922448D5550C94DE29180CEECBD@DEEXC1U01.de.lucent .com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20070213151729.036fa078@email.cisco.com> <45D46BC6.3020202@gmx.net> <5D1A7985295922448D5550C94DE29180CEECBD@DEEXC1U01.de.lucent.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Feb 2007 02:05:51.0815 (UTC) FILETIME=[A5930570:01C75493] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=14132; t=1171937156; x=1172801156; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim3002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=jmpolk@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22James=20M.=20Polk=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20Fwd=3A=20[Sip]=20I-D=0A=20=20ACTION=3Adraft-ietf-sip- location-conveyance-07.txt |Sender:=20; bh=ZuoZPVFnJlxYQtTlLkLcyOuchfIQQdaX5EKCzXP8byo=; b=NXm69tYX/s9yvdO3UhfA0UOH8GQxjvMTr8lj8NYWY21cnQPfVZ1xooQV/fxC4HEQGlnlq8pd 7x0MG+m2hLsTKEnEx2yuXjRHQbcbtIgmw4UVhvkeXx/PkJkXeAgwOaK2; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-3; header.From=jmpolk@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim3002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e3901bdd61b234d82da85cc76f05a7e8 Cc: sip@ietf.org X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Keith Below is the thread Shida and I had from Dec 12th, 06 through Jan 2nd, 07, as you have asked for: Shida comments in-line At 04:50 PM 1/2/2007 -0800, Shida Schubert wrote: >Hi James; > >Thanks for the response, my comments inline.. > >James M. Polk wrote: > > Shida > > > > I spaced this message when I submitted -06 (the other day) of Location > > conveyance. > > > > I have a few comments below in line which we can discuss which should > > still modify -06 (into -07) > > > > At 05:44 PM 12/12/2006 -0800, Shida Schubert wrote: > >> Hi James and Brian; > >> > >> I offered to review the draft so here it is. > >> > >> I think it needs some more clarifications. I will review the > >> draft more thoroughly once the changes agreed at the last IETF > >> is reflected. > >> > >> Section 5. 5th paragraph, 1st sentence. > >> -------------------------------------------- > >> More than one location representation or format, for example: civic > >> and geo, MAY be included in the same message body part, but all MUST > >> point at the same position on the earth. > >> > >> This can't be a MUST as Proxy may insert the location that it thinks > >> is correct according to its knowledge and it may not have a way to > >> validate that the address proxy inserts > > > > Proxies cannot insert a message body, per RFC3261, so I don't believe > > this comment applies. >Yes, I must have been partially sleeping of something. I overlooked the >"same >message body part" especially the "body part".. My apology. no problem > > > > > >> Section 5.1, 1st paragraph, 1st sentence. > >> -------------------------------------------- > >> The presence of the geolocation option tag in a Supported header > >> without a Geolocation header in the same message informs a receiving > >> SIP element the UAC understands the concept of location, but it does > >> not know its location at this time. > >> > >> I don't know if this is the correct interpretation UAS should have. > >> UAC sending the "geolocation" tag in the Supported header merely means > >> that it understands the spec. It does not mean that it does not > >> understand > >> its location at that time. It may but may simply not include it because > >> it saw no need to do so. > > > > the option tag shouldn't be in the request if the UA don't understand > > the extension, and but putting it in the request - in this case - > > without a Geolocation heder - means the UA doesn't have a location for > > itself to include, therefore do not error the request expecting the > > UAC to figure out it needs to put in its location in order for the > > message to be processed properly. The error will be ignored, and the > > subsequent request while look different how (to the proxy)? Without > > this behavior there will be a loop of UAC sending a request without > > location, and the proxy erroring the message, the UAC sending the > > message again without location, and the proxy again erroring the > > message. This doesn't stop without some indication in the request that > > the UAC knows it doesn't have its location and to not error the message. >Considering the cost for the location retrieval on some of the devices >out there(dollar cost and time), UAC may only >want to send a location information when requested. So how can we do >this? Currently there is no way for UAS to have the >understanding that UAC supports the location but simply did not include >the location information when available upon requests. >Of course we can ignore this case, and keep the current definition of >no geolocation = do not support the spec >geolocation + no Geolocation = do not understand the location ah, but having the option tag means "do not error (424) this message expecting location to be included", it says the UAC understands the SIP extension. A UAS can then attempt to SUB to the original UAC (now the UAS of the SUB) and see if it can pull location from the UA. The event package will have to be specified, which it isn't. >Added to this, what happens when geolocation + no Geolocation is set by >UAC but proxy adds Geolocation? This does not >necessary means that UAC understands its location but according to the >text above, it will have that semantics. if something were created to be added by the UAC to indicate it doesn't no have its location, yet understands the geolocation SIP extension, this would have to be removed by the SIP proxy (which is dangerous) that inserts the UAC's location into the message. That's why we are more or less implying something here, instead of being explicit. > > > >> Section 5.2, 1st paragraph, 2nd sentence. > >> -------------------------------------------- > >> The paragraph only talks about when the Subscription succeeds, it > >> should mention what would happen to the dialog if the subscription > >> fails. > >> I personally it should not affect the pre-existing dialog if there is > >> a dialog already established. > > > > Are you suggesting a 183 be sent until location can be dereferenced or > > not, then send a 200 OK regardless, with the difference being the > > Warning header is in the 200 OK if the dialog is continued to be > > established? > > > > Right now the 183 message isn't mentioned. Maybe it should be. > > > > A Warning in a 200 OK also isn't mentioned... >This comment was arised after I read the dialog-usage. This is another >scenario where >pre-existing dialog is used to establish a subscription(If subscribing >to the UAC to attain the >location info). > >If it is indeed it's re-using the pre-exisiting dialog, text may want to >mention that >pre-existing dialog is not terminated even if the location retrieval >fails is all I wanted to state >here I think.. I think this is reasonable to add >I think this is probably not a big deal. > > > > > > >> > >> Section 5.3, 2nd paragraph, > >> ---------------------------------- > >> It needs to be clarified how proxy would add the location information > >> when there is already a Geolocation header present in the message. Can > >> it add the location information to the pre-existing Geolocation header? > > > > I've added text to section 5.3.1 covering this > > > > I think this is covered in 3261: > > > > More than one instance of a header, such as > > > > Geolocation: alice123@example.com > > Geolocation: bob123@example.com > > > > is the same as > > > > Geolocation: alice123@example.com, bob123@example.com > > > > Is something more needing to be said here? >Nope. > >Text below confused me a little bit, as it sounds as if the proxy >is not able to add any location reference(MUST NOT modify the >contents of an existing Geolocation sounds like adding a location >URI can mean "modifying the contents"). It's probably my >misinterpretation due to English being a second language for me. actually, adding a second geolocation uri is fine, as long as the existing uris themselves in the geolocation header are not deleted, or modified. This, I hope is clear from section 5.3.1. I will change the text (below) to state "...MUST NOT modify any existing URI in the Geolocation header..." to be clear that a new uri can be added, but the one(s) there cannot be modified or deleted. Thanks James >Thanks again for your response. > >Regards >Shida > > > > >> > >> Section 3.2, 3rd last paragraph has a text stating > >> "A proxy MAY add the Geolocation header, but MUST > >> NOT modify the contents of an existing Geolocation header." > >> > >> But my interpretation of the text does not prohibit the proxy from > >> adding location information(location-by-reference) in the pre-existing > >> Geolocation header. > > > > you read this correctly > > > > > > >> Regards > >> Shida Schubert > >> At 02:08 PM 2/19/2007, Drage, Keith \(Keith\) wrote: >Can you repost those that did not appear on the SIP list to the SIP >list, so they appear in the archive. > >Regards > >Keith > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: James M. Polk [mailto:jmpolk@cisco.com] > > Sent: 15 February 2007 16:24 > > To: Hannes Tschofenig > > Cc: sip@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: Fwd: [Sip] I-D > > ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt > > > > At 04:18 PM 2/15/2007 +0200, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > > >Hi James, > > > > > >I have never seen the comments from Shida and Matt for this > > document. > > >Are you referring to some older discussions? > > > > Hannes > > > > Shida's, I just noticed, was only to the authors, and was Dec 12th, > > 06 - and his review was for -05 the day I submitted -06, > > which covered most of what he wanted changed (showing good > > minds think alike, perhaps?). > > > > Matt's was Jan 4th, 07 to the SIP list > > > > so these are not so old... > > > > James > > > > > > >Ciao > > >Hannes > > > > > >James M. Polk wrote: > > >>SIP WG > > >> > > >>We've submitted the -07 version of the Location Conveyance document > > >>based on comments from Shida Shubert and Matt Lepinski, > > some of which > > >>were very good, and well appreciated. Most (all?) were > > either nits or > > >>asking for clarifications/rewrites of a few individual > > sentences that > > >>didn't seem to make sense as written. > > >> > > >>We think this document is now done and have asked the > > chairs for WGLC on it. > > >> > > >>Comments are appreciated > > >> > > >>James & Brian > > >> > > >>>To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > > >>>From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org > > >>>Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 15:50:02 -0500 > > >>>Cc: sip@ietf.org > > >>>Subject: [Sip] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt > > >>> > > >>>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > > >>>directories. > > >>>This draft is a work item of the Session Initiation > > Protocol Working > > >>>Group of the IETF. > > >>> > > >>> Title : Session Initiation Protocol > > Location Conveyance > > >>> Author(s) : J. Polk, B. Rosen > > >>> Filename : > > draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt > > >>> Pages : 35 > > >>> Date : 2007-2-13 > > >>> > > >>>This document defines an extension to the Session Initiation > > >>> Protocol (SIP) to convey geographic location > > information from one > > >>> SIP entity to another SIP entity. The extension > > covers end to end > > >>> conveyance as well as location-based routing, where > > proxy servers > > >>> make routing decisions based on the location of the UAC. > > >>> > > >>>A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > > >>>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-location > > -conveyanc > > >>>e-07.txt > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a > > message to > > >>>i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in > > the body > > >>>of the message. > > >>>You can also visit > > >>>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce > > >>>to change your subscription settings. > > >>> > > >>>Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login > > with the > > >>>username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After > > >>>logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get > > >>>draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt". > > >>> > > >>>A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in > > >>>http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > > >>>or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > >>> > > >>>Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. > > >>> > > >>>Send a message to: > > >>> mailserv@ietf.org. > > >>>In the body type: > > >>> "FILE > > /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt". > > >>> > > >>>NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > > >>> MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. > > To use this > > >>> feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" > > before the "FILE" > > >>> command. To decode the response(s), you will > > need "munpack" or > > >>> a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant > > >>>mail readers > > >>> exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with > > >>> "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which > > have been split > > >>> up into multiple messages), so check your local > > documentation on > > >>> how to manipulate these messages. > > >>> > > >>>Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader > > >>>implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the > > >>>Internet-Draft. > > >>>Content-Type: text/plain > > >>>Content-ID: <2007-2-13141256.I-D@ietf.org> > > >>> > > >>>ENCODING mime > > >>>FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sip-location-conveyance-07.txt > > >>> > > >>> -conveyanc > > >>>e-07.txt> > > >>> > > >>>_______________________________________________ > > >>>Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > > >>>This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use > > >>>sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use > > >>>sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip > > >> > > >>_______________________________________________ > > >>Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > > >>This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use > > >>sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use > > >>sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use > > sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip > > _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 20 02:28:18 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJPO1-0004Zc-74; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 02:26:06 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJPNz-0004ZW-70 for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 02:26:03 -0500 Received: from ind-iport-1.cisco.com ([64.104.129.195]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJPNw-0002ph-ST for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 02:26:03 -0500 Received: from ind-dkim-1.cisco.com ([64.104.140.57]) by ind-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 21 Feb 2007 01:44:49 +0530 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,194,1170613800"; d="scan'208,217"; a="75661028:sNHT110189956" Received: from india-core-1.cisco.com (india-core-1.cisco.com [64.104.129.221]) by ind-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1K7Pwn5001316 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:55:58 +0530 Received: from xbh-blr-412.apac.cisco.com (xbh-blr-412.cisco.com [64.104.140.149]) by india-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l1K7Pa8b029725 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 07:25:51 GMT Received: from xmb-blr-418.apac.cisco.com ([64.104.140.147]) by xbh-blr-412.apac.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:55:41 +0530 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:55:40 +0530 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Question on RFC 3325- handling of SIP requests with malformed syntax Thread-Index: AcdUwFMIyt6BCWeyQ7GErHTvsyTm9A== From: "Rajeev Narang \(ranarang\)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Feb 2007 07:25:41.0363 (UTC) FILETIME=[536FAC30:01C754C0] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=5205; t=1171956358; x=1172820358; c=relaxed/simple; s=inddkim1002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=ranarang@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Rajeev=20Narang=20\(ranarang\)=22=20 |Subject:=20Question=20on=20RFC=203325-=20handling=20of=20SIP=20requests= 20with=20malformed=20syntax |Sender:=20; bh=D1T93V0LPrz/fxDtEQQcJMNNMeIkovoBXMNJdM16Nl0=; b=O++buBBF3L3zyc+3HjJPUmEzju0eIWyCdvkopdnid4tlr/TnO7ZmYF9VTHwpeniutAu6HU/j QFG144hy0jm4WG8SXfu2s+5H0+eXjzvZEmx3lQygcJbuZVbR91wBR4yt; Authentication-Results: ind-dkim-1; header.From=ranarang@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/inddkim1002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 093efd19b5f651b2707595638f6c4003 Subject: [Sip] Question on RFC 3325- handling of SIP requests with malformed syntax X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0539269497==" Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0539269497== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C754C0.536A82B4" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C754C0.536A82B4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, =20 I have a question on RFC 3325 in regard to handling of SIP requests for the following e.g:- 1) Having malformed syntax for PAI or PPI header? Should UA send 400 Bad Request or ignore it. =20 Text from rfc " A P-Asserted-Identity header field value MUST consist of exactly one name-addr or addr-spec". =20 2) Having more then 2 PAI or PPI headers? Should UA send 400 Bad Request or ignore it. Having 2 PAI, both with sip URI?. Should UA send 400 Bad Request or ignore it. Having 2 PAI, both with sips URI?. Should UA send 400 Bad Request or ignore it. Having 2 PAI, both with tel URI?. Should UA send 400 Bad Request or ignore it. Having 2 PAI, one with sip URI and other with tel URI. The sip URI is having correct syntax and tel URI having bad syntax?. Should UA send 400 Bad Request or ignore it. =20 Text from rfc " There may be one or two P-Asserted-Identity values. If there is one value, it MUST be a sip, sips, or tel URI. If there are two values, one value MUST be a sip or sips URI and the other MUST be a tel URI." =20 =20 Thanks, Rajeev =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C754C0.536A82B4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
 
I have = a question on=20 RFC 3325 in regard to handling of SIP requests for the following=20 e.g:-
1) = Having malformed=20 syntax for PAI or PPI header? Should UA send 400 Bad Request or ignore=20 it.
 
   Text from rfc " A = P-Asserted-Identity=20 header field value MUST consist of exactly one
   name-addr = or=20 addr-spec".
 
2) = Having more then=20 2 PAI or PPI headers? Should UA send 400 Bad Request or ignore=20 it.
   =20 Having 2 PAI, both with sip URI?. Should UA send 400 Bad Request or = ignore=20 it.
    Having 2 PAI, both with = sips URI?.=20 Should UA send 400 Bad Request or ignore it.
    Having 2 PAI, both with = tel URI?.=20 Should UA send 400 Bad Request or ignore=20 it.
    Having 2 PAI, one with sip = URI and=20 other with tel URI. The sip URI is having correct syntax and tel URI = having bad=20 syntax?. Should UA send 400 Bad Request or ignore=20 it.
  =20
   Text=20 from rfc " There may be one or two P-Asserted-Identity
  =20 values.  If there is one value, it MUST be a sip, sips, or tel=20 URI.
   If there are two values, one value MUST be a sip or = sips=20 URI and the
   other MUST be a tel = URI."
 
 
Thanks,
Rajeev
 
 
------_=_NextPart_001_01C754C0.536A82B4-- --===============0539269497== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --===============0539269497==-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 20 02:40:23 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJPbO-0003jG-A6; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 02:39:54 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJPbM-0003j8-Ll for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 02:39:52 -0500 Received: from sip.tutpro.com ([192.98.100.10] helo=tutpro.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJPbG-0005sA-AV for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 02:39:52 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tutpro.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 232571EC64E; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:39:45 +0200 (EET) Received: from tutpro.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (tutpro.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lflUVZ58M++X; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:39:29 +0200 (EET) Received: from rautu (unknown [124.6.202.26]) by tutpro.com (Postfix) with ESMTP; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:39:29 +0200 (EET) Received: by rautu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id E8340F14B5; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:38:25 +0200 (EET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <17882.42353.870071.381845@rautu.test.fi> Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:38:25 +0200 From: Juha Heinanen To: "Rajeev Narang \(ranarang\)" Subject: [Sip] Question on RFC 3325- handling of SIP requests with malformed syntax In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: VM 7.19 under Emacs 21.4.1 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Cc: sip@ietf.org X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Rajeev Narang \(ranarang\) writes: > If there are two values, one value MUST be a sip or sips URI and the > other MUST be a tel URI." this reminds me, how does one make a secure call using a tel uri, because there is no tels? if it cannot be done, it is yet another good reason to deprecate sips or tel or preferable both. -- juha _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 20 03:25:13 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJQIh-0000Df-61; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 03:24:39 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJQIf-0000DV-Ei for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 03:24:37 -0500 Received: from ihemail1.lucent.com ([135.245.0.33]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJQIe-0006eB-1S for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 03:24:37 -0500 Received: from ilexp01.ndc.lucent.com (h135-3-39-1.lucent.com [135.3.39.1]) by ihemail1.lucent.com (8.13.8/IER-o) with ESMTP id l1K8N4wQ020407; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 02:23:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from DEEXP02.DE.lucent.com ([135.248.187.66]) by ilexp01.ndc.lucent.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 20 Feb 2007 02:23:04 -0600 Received: from DEEXC1U01.de.lucent.com ([135.248.187.28]) by DEEXP02.DE.lucent.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:23:02 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Sip] RE: Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:23:02 +0100 Message-ID: <5D1A7985295922448D5550C94DE29180CEED31@DEEXC1U01.de.lucent.com> In-Reply-To: <7374777208BDC7449D5620EF94232567021CE506@esealmw113.eemea.ericsson.se> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Sip] RE: Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) Thread-Index: AcdSMTzoTJmXCX+jQoqaVY1Dh/5jcgBuAsCQADNJtIA= References: <45D65825.2070405@softarmor.com> <7374777208BDC7449D5620EF94232567021CE506@esealmw113.eemea.ericsson.se> From: "Drage, Keith \(Keith\)" To: "Christer Holmberg \(JO/LMF\)" , "Dean Willis" , "Cullen Jennings" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Feb 2007 08:23:02.0279 (UTC) FILETIME=[5661C970:01C754C8] X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.57 on 135.245.2.33 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 67c1ea29f88502ef6a32ccec927970f0 Cc: SIP , Rohan Mahy , Juha Heinanen X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org I don't think it is the fact that his sponsor has shipped large numbers of terminals is the issue. The very fact that outbound uses option-tags with a Require header means that a terminal that has not been upgraded is not going to work in outbound - it will default to not using it. To use outbound, existing terminals have to be upgraded. I do accept that the cost of maintaining the future market may be impacted, but that is not the same thing. Keith=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Christer Holmberg (JO/LMF)=20 > [mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com]=20 > Sent: 19 February 2007 05:57 > To: Dean Willis; Cullen Jennings > Cc: SIP; Rohan Mahy; Juha Heinanen > Subject: [Sip] RE: Followup: Pool on Update of outbound=20 > (retitled thread) >=20 >=20 > Hi, >=20 > When people indicate whether they believe/don't believe UDP=20 > will fade away, I think it would be very important -=20 > especially if we in the most extreme case are going to throw=20 > away UDP from SIP completely - that people indicate WHY they think so. >=20 > At the UDP-will-not-fade-away camp I have seen one reply=20 > where "MARKET SITUATION" is mentioned, and Dean indicated=20 > that his sponsor has shipped large number of non-TCP=20 > implementations. Important input, I think. >=20 > For those who DO think that UDP will go away - what is that=20 > belief based on? Market/deployment situation, theoretical=20 > problems that may occur, or simply wishful thinking? :) >=20 > Someone also mentioned that, by defining SIP 3.0 and removing=20 > UDP, people will be "forced" to switch from UDP to TCP. I=20 > don't think it works exactly like that... >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Christer >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dean Willis [mailto:dean.willis@softarmor.com] > > Sent: 17. helmikuuta 2007 3:20 > > To: Cullen Jennings > > Cc: Christer Holmberg (JO/LMF); Juha Heinanen; SIP; Rohan Mahy > > Subject: Re: Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) > >=20 > > Cullen Jennings wrote: > > >=20 > > > On Feb 15, 2007, at 4:08 PM, Dean Willis wrote: > > >> So, what do you people believe? > > >> > > >> 1) Do you believe that UDP transport of large messages > > will aggravate > > >> the congestion impact of SIP on the Internet (I personally > > do, just > > >> so you know my bias). > > >> > > >> 2) Will UDP fade away from SIP relatively soon? > > >> > > >> 3) If UDP will fade away, do we need to burden TCP-only=20 > > >> implementations with a more complex keepalive protocol designed=20 > > >> originally for UDP? > > >> > > >> 4) If UDP will fade away, do we need to account for UDP=20 > at all in=20 > > >> outbound? > > >> > > >> 5) If UDP will NOT fade away relatively soon, and TCP will > > not scale > > >> relatively soon, then do you believe that we need a transition=20 > > >> mechanism so that we can register and keepalive using UDP, > > then bring > > >> up short-lived TCP connections for large messages as=20 > Marc's draft=20 > > >> proposes? > > >> > > >> 6) If you agree with #1 but think UDP will not fade away=20 > and don't=20 > > >> see the need for #5, then I either want to know what sort of=20 > > >> alternative you envision, because we're going to need one. > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Dean > > >=20 > > > Is that an email sent with your chair hat on ? > >=20 > >=20 > > Yes, and I can't spell "Poll". > >=20 > > I want to know what people believe so I can get a feel for=20 > consensus. > >=20 > > I thought we were closing on one, and now I think it's=20 > slipping away,=20 > > and I suspect there are good reasons it is slipping away. > >=20 > > -- > > Dean > >=20 > >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use=20 > sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip=20 > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip >=20 _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From jeanmaubiof@ocn.ne.jp Tue Feb 20 04:03:45 2007 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJQuX-0000yt-G5; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 04:03:45 -0500 Received: from p3073-ipad11sapodoori.hokkaido.ocn.ne.jp ([218.224.16.73] helo=ocn.ne.jp) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJQuT-0000F8-Vk; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 04:03:45 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Abe" To: "Shirlene" Cc: "Delois" , "Jeffrey Warren" , "Samual" , "Ka Rose" , "Tona Diaz" , "Karima Murphy" , "Lori" , "Amelia" , "Julian" , "Royce" Subject: Dont Understand, Hope U Can Help Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:33:47 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_AAA_AC9C_FFBB8822.2CD4E19D" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-Spam-Score: 2.5 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 1c0c3d540ad9f95212b1c2a9a2cc2595 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_AAA_AC9C_FFBB8822.2CD4E19D Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_3C9_B046_C765F675.21917C84" ------=_NextPart_3C9_B046_C765F675.21917C84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As fade paint for Albert and Franz, move they essayed brick not to escap = "No; slain and your excellencies read nation will do well cook not to thi= "Because, map doubt in the first place, rid they read transfer from td= rawer "It is far cold much spent more convenient at Paris,--when anythi "True, I blow was a tailor, torn till the put trade rid fell off. 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cxoKnQhDUeZMjhm0QryEqN3qJpGK4gCHtMpofjJ0t0s6FDX6PCdJ53bRiHTUosdRKW6016WX8pA8 BsyBRClkUx0Mp6UqS6h2frlTR8R0S0JF6R7ImAMtNmpqN7Qk1zSJQ0pekg09kxwCU4HJ0HluqlqF gyPNKNWWVKarXgWd5RopOs+xInKZe2RWQzNWqloOhlfdHOXIisZ8ONKtLPQfjpZ3jmBqpq5fhUfz RtNMw4ZHNATE2mHjQknFXq4tNlzLZTbaRe4B9hZfZStn2KLTpwqWH5eFrGhl8VdHtXCNTs2MDfFR /jkzxu2qRH0L3RTYWhgWMKYriS1vNltJB2Kyhrj1LS8YGszWFleYLtEkLpb6NnHilrOmVUv26iFb Nf7WtfJIbg1rW92UGJe0Gm2sdoFGXOtGNrdijAtNwYs3WeBURqiV7mp7O124JDa3jvWuDxuYGXXI FLmYdUUaA2vb79YXDlUz8Bq7qBn+Llceiz1tX33EONBF8oZgBetbFTnWqiayqiGlA1yBOzq2aljE W5VrWbAqyd9meHQvRvE8eqbVzj2QqjKGJIsXiWIZr/e5lAIgwg5cKaDm9FXBVK2kkiqwH/cSOVEW 1WmKTKmPCVTLXcqyv1C7ZTBXqMubaliYzdygYSd72cJnZjN3oFWwN7dZzsgps6jqteY55zleE+BX q+rFLj3fwKRtlpe11IUtciVa0YtmdKMdrWifAPpdvnh0pS19aUxnetF4DnSnPf1pUIda1KMmdalN fWpUp1rVqw5QBAAAOw== ------=_NextPart_AAA_AC9C_FFBB8822.2CD4E19D-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 20 04:53:10 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJReh-0007np-Ua; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 04:51:27 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJRef-0007nO-VL; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 04:51:25 -0500 Received: from mail128.messagelabs.com ([216.82.250.131]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJRee-0008T2-Le; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 04:51:25 -0500 X-VirusChecked: Checked X-Env-Sender: ranjit@motorola.com X-Msg-Ref: server-12.tower-128.messagelabs.com!1171965083!7775749!1 X-StarScan-Version: 5.5.10.7.1; banners=-,-,- X-Originating-IP: [129.188.136.8] Received: (qmail 12235 invoked from network); 20 Feb 2007 09:51:23 -0000 Received: from motgate8.mot.com (HELO motgate8.mot.com) (129.188.136.8) by server-12.tower-128.messagelabs.com with SMTP; 20 Feb 2007 09:51:23 -0000 Received: from il06exr04.mot.com (il06exr04.mot.com [129.188.137.134]) by motgate8.mot.com (8.12.11/Motorola) with ESMTP id l1K9pNYB017894; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 02:51:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from ZMY16EXM66.ds.mot.com (zmy16exm66.ap.mot.com [10.179.4.26]) by il06exr04.mot.com (8.13.1/8.13.0) with ESMTP id l1K9pL0m012340; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 03:51:22 -0600 (CST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:51:19 +0800 Message-ID: <750BBC72E178114F9DC4872EBFF29A5B03E8E80D@ZMY16EXM66.ds.mot.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Knowing status of sent message Thread-Index: AcdU1KvNPiuiYHveTTmH48rvxYZWtw== X-Priority: 1 Priority: Urgent Importance: high From: "Avasarala Ranjit-A20990" To: , X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 Cc: Subject: [Sip] Knowing status of sent message X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0171563382==" Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0171563382== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C754D4.AC528304" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C754D4.AC528304 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Is there a mechanism in SIP to know the status of sent instant message using MESSAGE? Thanks Regards Ranjit ------_=_NextPart_001_01C754D4.AC528304 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Knowing status of sent message

Hi

Is there a mechanism = in SIP to know the status of sent instant message using MESSAGE?

Thanks

Regards
Ranjit

------_=_NextPart_001_01C754D4.AC528304-- --===============0171563382== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --===============0171563382==-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 20 05:00:08 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJRms-0006IV-V1; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 04:59:54 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJRmr-0006ID-8w; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 04:59:53 -0500 Received: from mtagate2.de.ibm.com ([195.212.29.151]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJRmo-0004FW-NH; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 04:59:53 -0500 Received: from d12nrmr1607.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12nrmr1607.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.167.49]) by mtagate2.de.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l1K9xojK074962; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:59:50 GMT Received: from d12av02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12av02.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.228]) by d12nrmr1607.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v8.2) with ESMTP id l1K9xnvf1810564; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:59:49 +0100 Received: from d12av02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d12av02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l1K9xnhp000884; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:59:49 +0100 Received: from d12ml102.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12ml102.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.166.138]) by d12av02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1K9xn0n000878; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:59:49 +0100 In-Reply-To: <750BBC72E178114F9DC4872EBFF29A5B03E8E80D@ZMY16EXM66.ds.mot.com> To: "Avasarala Ranjit-A20990" Subject: Re: [Sip] Knowing status of sent message MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 7.0 HF144 February 01, 2006 From: Avshalom Houri Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:59:47 +0200 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D12ML102/12/M/IBM(Release 7.0.2HF71 | November 3, 2006) at 20/02/2007 11:59:48, Serialize complete at 20/02/2007 11:59:48 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 34d35111647d654d033d58d318c0d21a Cc: sip@ietf.org, sipping@ietf.org X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0155961884==" Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org This is a multipart message in MIME format. --===============0155961884== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 00370CCAC2257288_=" This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 00370CCAC2257288_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" See: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-simple-imdn-03. --Avshalom "Avasarala Ranjit-A20990" 20/02/2007 11:51 To , cc Subject [Sip] Knowing status of sent message Hi Is there a mechanism in SIP to know the status of sent instant message using MESSAGE? Thanks Regards Ranjit _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --=_alternative 00370CCAC2257288_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
See: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-simple-imdn-03.

--Avshalom


"Avasarala Ranjit-A20990" <ranjit@motorola.com>

20/02/2007 11:51

To
<sipping@ietf.org>, <sip@ietf.org>
cc
Subject
[Sip] Knowing status of sent message





Hi

Is there a mechanism in SIP to know the status of sent instant message using MESSAGE?

Thanks

Regards
Ranjit _______________________________________________
Sip mailing list  https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip
This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol
Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip
Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip

--=_alternative 00370CCAC2257288_=-- --===============0155961884== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --===============0155961884==-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 20 05:00:08 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJRn2-0006Mk-Gz; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 05:00:04 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJRn1-0006Lj-Eq; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 05:00:03 -0500 Received: from wip-ec-wd.wipro.com ([203.91.193.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJRmx-0004Fk-Jy; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 05:00:03 -0500 Received: from wip-ec-wd.wipro.com (localhost.wipro.com [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id EABF4205E2; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:21:54 +0530 (IST) Received: from blr-ec-bh01.wipro.com (blr-ec-bh01.wipro.com [10.201.50.91]) by wip-ec-wd.wipro.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6A29205DE; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:21:54 +0530 (IST) Received: from HYD-MDP-MBX01.wipro.com ([10.150.50.182]) by blr-ec-bh01.wipro.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:29:52 +0530 Received: from HYD-MKD-MBX01.wipro.com ([10.154.50.181]) by HYD-MDP-MBX01.wipro.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:29:51 +0530 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Sip] Knowing status of sent message Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:29:50 +0530 Message-ID: <94350539FC77154CBBF37A9B9284133D022653B4@HYD-MKD-MBX01.wipro.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Sip] Knowing status of sent message Thread-Index: AcdU1KvNPiuiYHveTTmH48rvxYZWtwAAcAxQ From: To: , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Feb 2007 09:59:51.0888 (UTC) FILETIME=[DD2DC500:01C754D5] X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b84f8c8fba0e1389e5eb998b64078964 Cc: X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0019137279==" Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0019137279== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C754D5.DC230BC8" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C754D5.DC230BC8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ranjit, Every MESSAGE method will be acknowledged by 200 OK success response. =20 That means,=20 If "A" sends MESSAGE to "B", upon receiving this MESSAGE B sends 200 OK response to A. =20 Regards Kamal ________________________________ From: Avasarala Ranjit-A20990 [mailto:ranjit@motorola.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 3:21 PM To: sipping@ietf.org; sip@ietf.org Subject: [Sip] Knowing status of sent message Importance: High =20 Hi=20 Is there a mechanism in SIP to know the status of sent instant message using MESSAGE?=20 Thanks=20 Regards=20 Ranjit=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C754D5.DC230BC8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Knowing status of sent message

Hi = Ranjit,

Every = MESSAGE method will be acknowledged by 200 OK success = response.

 

That = means,

If = “A” sends MESSAGE to “B”, upon receiving this MESSAGE B sends = 200 OK response to A.

 

Regards

Kamal

From: = Avasarala Ranjit-A20990 [mailto:ranjit@motorola.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February = 20, 2007 3:21 PM
To: sipping@ietf.org; = sip@ietf.org
Subject: [Sip] Knowing = status of sent message
Importance: = High

 

Hi

Is there a mechanism in SIP to know the status of sent = instant message using MESSAGE?

Thanks

Regards
Ranjit

------_=_NextPart_001_01C754D5.DC230BC8-- --===============0019137279== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --===============0019137279==-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 20 05:00:08 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJRms-0006IV-V1; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 04:59:54 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJRmr-0006ID-8w; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 04:59:53 -0500 Received: from mtagate2.de.ibm.com ([195.212.29.151]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJRmo-0004FW-NH; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 04:59:53 -0500 Received: from d12nrmr1607.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12nrmr1607.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.167.49]) by mtagate2.de.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l1K9xojK074962; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:59:50 GMT Received: from d12av02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12av02.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.165.228]) by d12nrmr1607.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/NCO v8.2) with ESMTP id l1K9xnvf1810564; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:59:49 +0100 Received: from d12av02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d12av02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l1K9xnhp000884; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:59:49 +0100 Received: from d12ml102.megacenter.de.ibm.com (d12ml102.megacenter.de.ibm.com [9.149.166.138]) by d12av02.megacenter.de.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1K9xn0n000878; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:59:49 +0100 In-Reply-To: <750BBC72E178114F9DC4872EBFF29A5B03E8E80D@ZMY16EXM66.ds.mot.com> To: "Avasarala Ranjit-A20990" Subject: Re: [Sip] Knowing status of sent message MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 7.0 HF144 February 01, 2006 From: Avshalom Houri Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:59:47 +0200 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D12ML102/12/M/IBM(Release 7.0.2HF71 | November 3, 2006) at 20/02/2007 11:59:48, Serialize complete at 20/02/2007 11:59:48 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 34d35111647d654d033d58d318c0d21a Cc: sip@ietf.org, sipping@ietf.org X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0155961884==" Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org This is a multipart message in MIME format. --===============0155961884== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 00370CCAC2257288_=" This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 00370CCAC2257288_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" See: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-simple-imdn-03. --Avshalom "Avasarala Ranjit-A20990" 20/02/2007 11:51 To , cc Subject [Sip] Knowing status of sent message Hi Is there a mechanism in SIP to know the status of sent instant message using MESSAGE? Thanks Regards Ranjit _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --=_alternative 00370CCAC2257288_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
See: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-simple-imdn-03.

--Avshalom


"Avasarala Ranjit-A20990" <ranjit@motorola.com>

20/02/2007 11:51

To
<sipping@ietf.org>, <sip@ietf.org>
cc
Subject
[Sip] Knowing status of sent message





Hi

Is there a mechanism in SIP to know the status of sent instant message using MESSAGE?

Thanks

Regards
Ranjit _______________________________________________
Sip mailing list  https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip
This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol
Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip
Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip

--=_alternative 00370CCAC2257288_=-- --===============0155961884== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --===============0155961884==-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 20 05:00:08 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJRn2-0006Mk-Gz; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 05:00:04 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJRn1-0006Lj-Eq; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 05:00:03 -0500 Received: from wip-ec-wd.wipro.com ([203.91.193.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJRmx-0004Fk-Jy; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 05:00:03 -0500 Received: from wip-ec-wd.wipro.com (localhost.wipro.com [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id EABF4205E2; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:21:54 +0530 (IST) Received: from blr-ec-bh01.wipro.com (blr-ec-bh01.wipro.com [10.201.50.91]) by wip-ec-wd.wipro.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6A29205DE; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:21:54 +0530 (IST) Received: from HYD-MDP-MBX01.wipro.com ([10.150.50.182]) by blr-ec-bh01.wipro.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:29:52 +0530 Received: from HYD-MKD-MBX01.wipro.com ([10.154.50.181]) by HYD-MDP-MBX01.wipro.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:29:51 +0530 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Sip] Knowing status of sent message Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:29:50 +0530 Message-ID: <94350539FC77154CBBF37A9B9284133D022653B4@HYD-MKD-MBX01.wipro.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Sip] Knowing status of sent message Thread-Index: AcdU1KvNPiuiYHveTTmH48rvxYZWtwAAcAxQ From: To: , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Feb 2007 09:59:51.0888 (UTC) FILETIME=[DD2DC500:01C754D5] X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b84f8c8fba0e1389e5eb998b64078964 Cc: X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0019137279==" Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0019137279== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C754D5.DC230BC8" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C754D5.DC230BC8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ranjit, Every MESSAGE method will be acknowledged by 200 OK success response. =20 That means,=20 If "A" sends MESSAGE to "B", upon receiving this MESSAGE B sends 200 OK response to A. =20 Regards Kamal ________________________________ From: Avasarala Ranjit-A20990 [mailto:ranjit@motorola.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 3:21 PM To: sipping@ietf.org; sip@ietf.org Subject: [Sip] Knowing status of sent message Importance: High =20 Hi=20 Is there a mechanism in SIP to know the status of sent instant message using MESSAGE?=20 Thanks=20 Regards=20 Ranjit=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C754D5.DC230BC8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Knowing status of sent message

Hi = Ranjit,

Every = MESSAGE method will be acknowledged by 200 OK success = response.

 

That = means,

If = “A” sends MESSAGE to “B”, upon receiving this MESSAGE B sends = 200 OK response to A.

 

Regards

Kamal

From: = Avasarala Ranjit-A20990 [mailto:ranjit@motorola.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February = 20, 2007 3:21 PM
To: sipping@ietf.org; = sip@ietf.org
Subject: [Sip] Knowing = status of sent message
Importance: = High

 

Hi

Is there a mechanism in SIP to know the status of sent = instant message using MESSAGE?

Thanks

Regards
Ranjit

------_=_NextPart_001_01C754D5.DC230BC8-- --===============0019137279== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --===============0019137279==-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 20 05:44:13 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJSSs-0004Az-IO; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 05:43:18 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJSSq-0004Au-Vo for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 05:43:16 -0500 Received: from mailgate.siemenscomms.co.uk ([195.171.110.225] helo=bemg01.siemenscomms.co.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJSSp-0000qn-Dz for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 05:43:16 -0500 Received: from ntht207e.uksgcs.siemenscomms.co.uk ([137.223.247.82]) by siemenscomms.co.uk (PMDF V6.0-24 #40642) with ESMTP id <0JDR00I54CFT15@siemenscomms.co.uk> for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:43:05 +0000 (GMT) Received: by ntht207e.uksgcs.siemenscomms.co.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:43:06 +0000 Content-return: allowed Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:43:05 +0000 From: "Elwell, John" Subject: RE: [Sip] RE: connected-identity before 200 Ok To: Dan Wing , sip@ietf.org Message-id: <50B1CBA96870A34799A506B2313F26670B163EB7@ntht201e.siemenscomms.co.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 33cc095b503da4365ce57c727e553cf1 Cc: ietf-rtpsec@imc.org, 'Rob Raymond' X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Dan, I can see the benefit of doing a further SDP offer in an UPDATE request that coveys connected-identity to prove that the security keys and other SDP information do indeed come from the user identified in the From header field. However, I seem to be missing the link to Rob's original question, which was how to ensure that it comes from an entity that received the INVITE request (and hence ensure that the SRTP comes from such an entity). John > -----Original Message----- > From: Dan Wing [mailto:dwing@cisco.com] > Sent: 19 February 2007 19:48 > To: Elwell, John; sip@ietf.org > Cc: ietf-rtpsec@imc.org; 'Rob Raymond' > Subject: RE: [Sip] RE: connected-identity before 200 Ok > > > > The important thing is that there be evidence that the 18x has > > reached the calling UA before sending an UPDATE request to the > > calling UA. Otherwise the UPDATE request might receive a 481 > > response. So I suppose the called UA could send an UPDATE request > > and be prepared to repeat it (and the 18x response) if a 481 > > response is received. This would be another example of "poor man's > > PRACK". A problem could arise if the calling UA holds state to say > > whether a 18x has been received reliably and rejects an UPDATE > > request if not - I guess this depends on how it is implemented in > > practice. Also a calling UA that does not implement PRACK might > > also be unable to accept UPDATE before answer, but the option tag > > that indicates support for UPDATE will not tell you this. > > > > Another issue is whether the presence or absence of SDP offer in an > > UPDATE request has impact on when it can/cannot be sent. > > To detect the attacks that Rob brought up on the RTPSEC mailing list, > we would want the UPDATE to contain the same SDP as it has in the > 18x (183). > > > If it contains an SDP offer, obviously it has to obey the strict > > offer-answer rules, so clearly has to be sent after any previous > > offer-answer sequence has completed. Without waiting for the PRACK > > it could be dangerous. Consider the following slightly revised > > sequence: > > > > Alice Bob > > | | > > 1. |--Invite with SDP offer->| > > 1a |<--18x without SDP answer| > > 2. |x--183 with SDP answer---| (183 is unreliable) > > 3. |<--UPDATE with SDP-------| > > 4. |---Ack Update----------->| > > > > The first 18x is send unreliably and established the early > dialog. The > > second 183 containing SDP answer is lost. The UPDATE > request will not > > receive a 481 response (because the early dialog is already > > established) but the SDP offer will be illegal. It is unclear what > > response Alice would give. > > Ok. > > > So in this particular case it is a lot safer to wait for the PRACK. > > Therefore I think the > > [looks like something got cut off from your email.] [JRE] Nothing missing - the last 4 words above should have been deleted. > > > However, if the UPDATE request does NOT contain an SDP offer > > (which for connected-identity purposes it doesn't need to), > > That's my point: it does need to contain SDP in order to protect > against the very same attacks that Identity protected against: > if the SDP isn't included, the Connected-Identity isn't useful > because anybody could send RTP to the calling party. That RTP > could be audio saying "your mother wears combat boots". Because > the SDP isn't signed, there isn't any assurance it's coming from > the expected IP addresses, nor can we use a=fingerprint to create > cryptographic assurance. > > > the following are questionable: > > - the need to wait for PRACK if the 18x is sent reliably; > > - the need to send the 18x reliably > > - the whether the UPDATE request can be sent even if the only > > 18x sent does not contain SDP answer; > > - whether an UPDATE request containing an offer for early session > > disposition can be sent before the normal answer has been > > sent or before it has been acknowledged through PRACK. > > > > I don't think these points are covered by RFC3311. > > Yes, we need this standardized somewhere. > > -d > > > > John > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Dan Wing [mailto:dwing@cisco.com] > > > Sent: 17 February 2007 00:49 > > > To: sip@ietf.org > > > Cc: ietf-rtpsec@imc.org; Elwell, John; Rob Raymond > > > Subject: connected-identity before 200 Ok > > > > > > This message is a result of some offline discussions with Rob > > > and ample > > > caffeine consumption on my part. The concern is if PRACK is > > > necessary in > > > order to use connected-identity before the call is answered > > > in order to > > > avoid some of the attacks Robin brought up on RTPSEC. > > > > > > > > > Reading RFC3311 (SIP UPDATE), it says: > > > > > > o If the UPDATE is being sent before completion of > > the initial > > > INVITE transaction, and the initial INVITE contained > > > an offer, > > > the UPDATE can contain an offer if the callee > generated an > > > answer in a reliable provisional response, and the > > caller has > > > received answers to any other offers it sent in > > > either PRACK or > > > UPDATE, and has generated answers for any offers it > > > received in > > > an UPDATE from the callee. > > > > > > draft-ietf-sip-connected-identity seems to say you need to > > > use PRACK if you > > > want connected-identity before the 200 Ok: > > > > > > After an early dialog has been formed, if the > > "from-change" option > > > tag has been received in a Supported header field the UA > > > MAY issue an > > > UPDATE request (RFC 3311 [4]) on the same dialog, > > subject to having > > > sent a reliable provisional response to the INVITE request > > > and having > > > received and responded to a PRACK request. > > > > > > Which I interpret to mean that the following is illegal, even > > > if the SDP in > > > message 2 and 3 are identical: > > > > > > Alice Bob > > > | | > > > 1. |--Invite with SDP offer->| > > > 2. |<--183 with SDP answer---| (183 is unreliable) > > > 3. |<--UPDATE with SDP-------| > > > 4. |---Ack Update----------->| > > > > > > Please confirm that the above call flow is disallowed per > > the rules of > > > RFC3311 and per the rules of draft-ietf-sip-connected-identity. > > > > > > > > > Question: would ICE's "poor-man's PRACK" (as I call it) be > > > sufficient to > > > meet the needs of RFC3311 and -sip-connected-identity for > a reliable > > > provisional response? ICE's "poor-man's PRACK" is described in > > > > > 2.1>, around > > > the middle of section 12.1. > > > > > > -d > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip > _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 20 11:14:09 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJXam-0002fm-Nk; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:11:48 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJXal-0002fd-Lt for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:11:47 -0500 Received: from figas.ekabal.com ([204.61.215.10]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJXak-0007Za-Af for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:11:47 -0500 Received: from localhost (rohan@localhost) by figas.ekabal.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l1KG9fd12637; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 08:09:41 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: figas.ekabal.com: rohan owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 08:09:41 -0800 (PST) From: Rohan Mahy To: Cullen Jennings Subject: Re: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) In-Reply-To: <140509CA-FF86-4138-BEF9-4D0D001C53E4@cisco.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Cc: SIP , Francois Audet , "Christer Holmberg \(\(JO/LMF\)\)" , Juha Heinanen , Dean Willis X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Both of you are on Mars. This thread is about outbound. The number of implementations that will implement outbound using SIP over DTLS or over SIP over TLS/SCTP is miniscule. Anybody who implemented SIP over either transport would have no problem doing SIP over TLS/TCP and by extension SIP over TCP. This issue is about burdening future TCP (and TLS over TCP) implementations that do outbound with STUN keepalives or not. thanks, -rohan On Thu, 15 Feb 2007, Cullen Jennings wrote: > On Feb 15, 2007, at 5:01 PM, Francois Audet wrote: > > > PS: missing from your whole analysis is the fact that if you want > > to use > > a secure > > transport, then TLS/TCP or TLS/SCTP it is. Considering that we should > > encourage > > secure implementations, I find this obsession with optimizing our > > design > > for the > > non-secure transport rather bizarre. > > We closed this last time by pointing out there is a draft and working > implementations that do SIP over DTLS. The security issues is not at > all coupled with the UDP/TCP issue. > > Good to see we are going to get to repeat all this conversation. _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 20 12:18:27 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJYaa-0002zQ-6n; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:15:40 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJYaZ-0002zK-A3 for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:15:39 -0500 Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com ([171.68.10.87]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJYaY-0006dt-Kt for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:15:39 -0500 Received: from sj-dkim-1.cisco.com ([171.71.179.21]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 20 Feb 2007 09:15:39 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,197,1170662400"; d="scan'208"; a="391228840:sNHT58553722" Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (sj-core-1.cisco.com [171.71.177.237]) by sj-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1KHFcMj013690; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:15:38 -0800 Received: from dwingwxp ([10.32.240.194]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l1KHFaDk011582; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:15:37 -0800 (PST) From: "Dan Wing" To: "'Elwell, John'" , Subject: RE: [Sip] RE: connected-identity before 200 Ok Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:15:34 -0800 Message-ID: <02e401c75512$bc2dd100$c2f0200a@amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <50B1CBA96870A34799A506B2313F26670B163EB7@ntht201e.siemenscomms.co.uk> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: AcdU2+uPZkPmi2AYSACJGnNmHAGz6wANf3xg DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=8509; t=1171991738; x=1172855738; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim1004; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=dwing@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Dan=20Wing=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20[Sip]=20RE=3A=20connected-identity=20before=20200=20O k |Sender:=20; bh=HuPmEdSDc7mND8mkaRWAPGo3Zhc5k0G1cM7PpdoDFQo=; b=a6AxUjE5e9s3ZEMEqFVJHpzwGerLjPSZhpu8vc28sKJRNyHJJzFwTv+0KArxkRKG+vZS0xHJ 3juGat3FVpc8D8U4PmxdZ4xwE2d978i6kz7i986xdLdYX6L8iCvYhIo+pBVwElgYjB8FLmcztS tl7kGa5yQMgRZXgB2h3EkahvM=; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-1; header.From=dwing@cisco.com; dkim=pass (s ig from cisco.com/sjdkim1004 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 140baa79ca42e6b0e2b4504291346186 Cc: ietf-rtpsec@imc.org, 'Rob Raymond' X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org > I can see the benefit of doing a further SDP offer in an > UPDATE request that coveys connected-identity to prove that > the security keys and other SDP information do indeed come > from the user identified in the From header field. Ok. And if the offerer is being paranoid, the connected-identity would need to arrive before the called party's phone rings (in order to avoid clipping). We'll need to work on ways to indicate that; perhaps PRACK is perfect for this, but as we know it isn't widely implement due to both its complexity and the IPR arround it. > However, I seem to be missing the link to Rob's original question, > which was how to ensure that it comes from an entity that > received the INVITE request (and hence ensure that the SRTP > comes from such an entity). IMO, that is resolved by the fact the offerer received an UPDATE containing an Identity signature. This is because sip-identity (and, hence, connected-identity) presume the network between the SIP UA and the authentication service are sufficiently secure against the threats on that network. TLS is the simplest example, but SIP Digest authentication with its integrity protection is sufficient for that threat. -d > John > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dan Wing [mailto:dwing@cisco.com] > > Sent: 19 February 2007 19:48 > > To: Elwell, John; sip@ietf.org > > Cc: ietf-rtpsec@imc.org; 'Rob Raymond' > > Subject: RE: [Sip] RE: connected-identity before 200 Ok > > > > > > > The important thing is that there be evidence that the 18x has > > > reached the calling UA before sending an UPDATE request to the > > > calling UA. Otherwise the UPDATE request might receive a 481 > > > response. So I suppose the called UA could send an UPDATE request > > > and be prepared to repeat it (and the 18x response) if a 481 > > > response is received. This would be another example of > "poor man's > > > PRACK". A problem could arise if the calling UA holds state to say > > > whether a 18x has been received reliably and rejects an UPDATE > > > request if not - I guess this depends on how it is implemented in > > > practice. Also a calling UA that does not implement PRACK might > > > also be unable to accept UPDATE before answer, but the option tag > > > that indicates support for UPDATE will not tell you this. > > > > > > Another issue is whether the presence or absence of SDP > offer in an > > > UPDATE request has impact on when it can/cannot be sent. > > > > To detect the attacks that Rob brought up on the RTPSEC > mailing list, > > we would want the UPDATE to contain the same SDP as it has in the > > 18x (183). > > > > > If it contains an SDP offer, obviously it has to obey the strict > > > offer-answer rules, so clearly has to be sent after any previous > > > offer-answer sequence has completed. Without waiting for > the PRACK > > > it could be dangerous. Consider the following slightly revised > > > sequence: > > > > > > Alice Bob > > > | | > > > 1. |--Invite with SDP offer->| > > > 1a |<--18x without SDP answer| > > > 2. |x--183 with SDP answer---| (183 is unreliable) > > > 3. |<--UPDATE with SDP-------| > > > 4. |---Ack Update----------->| > > > > > > The first 18x is send unreliably and established the early > > dialog. The > > > second 183 containing SDP answer is lost. The UPDATE > > request will not > > > receive a 481 response (because the early dialog is already > > > established) but the SDP offer will be illegal. It is > unclear what > > > response Alice would give. > > > > Ok. > > > > > So in this particular case it is a lot safer to wait for > the PRACK. > > > Therefore I think the > > > > [looks like something got cut off from your email.] > [JRE] Nothing missing - the last 4 words above should have > been deleted. > > > > > > However, if the UPDATE request does NOT contain an SDP offer > > > (which for connected-identity purposes it doesn't need to), > > > > That's my point: it does need to contain SDP in order to protect > > against the very same attacks that Identity protected against: > > if the SDP isn't included, the Connected-Identity isn't useful > > because anybody could send RTP to the calling party. That RTP > > could be audio saying "your mother wears combat boots". Because > > the SDP isn't signed, there isn't any assurance it's coming from > > the expected IP addresses, nor can we use a=fingerprint to create > > cryptographic assurance. > > > > > the following are questionable: > > > - the need to wait for PRACK if the 18x is sent reliably; > > > - the need to send the 18x reliably > > > - the whether the UPDATE request can be sent even if the only > > > 18x sent does not contain SDP answer; > > > - whether an UPDATE request containing an offer for early session > > > disposition can be sent before the normal answer has been > > > sent or before it has been acknowledged through PRACK. > > > > > > I don't think these points are covered by RFC3311. > > > > Yes, we need this standardized somewhere. > > > > -d > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Dan Wing [mailto:dwing@cisco.com] > > > > Sent: 17 February 2007 00:49 > > > > To: sip@ietf.org > > > > Cc: ietf-rtpsec@imc.org; Elwell, John; Rob Raymond > > > > Subject: connected-identity before 200 Ok > > > > > > > > This message is a result of some offline discussions with Rob > > > > and ample > > > > caffeine consumption on my part. The concern is if PRACK is > > > > necessary in > > > > order to use connected-identity before the call is answered > > > > in order to > > > > avoid some of the attacks Robin brought up on RTPSEC. > > > > > > > > > > > > Reading RFC3311 (SIP UPDATE), it says: > > > > > > > > o If the UPDATE is being sent before completion of > > > the initial > > > > INVITE transaction, and the initial INVITE contained > > > > an offer, > > > > the UPDATE can contain an offer if the callee > > generated an > > > > answer in a reliable provisional response, and the > > > caller has > > > > received answers to any other offers it sent in > > > > either PRACK or > > > > UPDATE, and has generated answers for any offers it > > > > received in > > > > an UPDATE from the callee. > > > > > > > > draft-ietf-sip-connected-identity seems to say you need to > > > > use PRACK if you > > > > want connected-identity before the 200 Ok: > > > > > > > > After an early dialog has been formed, if the > > > "from-change" option > > > > tag has been received in a Supported header field the UA > > > > MAY issue an > > > > UPDATE request (RFC 3311 [4]) on the same dialog, > > > subject to having > > > > sent a reliable provisional response to the INVITE request > > > > and having > > > > received and responded to a PRACK request. > > > > > > > > Which I interpret to mean that the following is illegal, even > > > > if the SDP in > > > > message 2 and 3 are identical: > > > > > > > > Alice Bob > > > > | | > > > > 1. |--Invite with SDP offer->| > > > > 2. |<--183 with SDP answer---| (183 is unreliable) > > > > 3. |<--UPDATE with SDP-------| > > > > 4. |---Ack Update----------->| > > > > > > > > Please confirm that the above call flow is disallowed per > > > the rules of > > > > RFC3311 and per the rules of draft-ietf-sip-connected-identity. > > > > > > > > > > > > Question: would ICE's "poor-man's PRACK" (as I call it) be > > > > sufficient to > > > > meet the needs of RFC3311 and -sip-connected-identity for > > a reliable > > > > provisional response? ICE's "poor-man's PRACK" is described in > > > > > > > 2.1>, around > > > > the middle of section 12.1. > > > > > > > > -d > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > > > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > > > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > > > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the > application of sip > > _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 20 12:59:07 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJZFh-0008Cl-5N; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:58:09 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJZFf-0008Cf-3V for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:58:08 -0500 Received: from sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com ([171.71.176.70] helo=sj-iport-1.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJZFd-0007Wx-NU for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:58:07 -0500 Received: from rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com ([64.102.121.159]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 20 Feb 2007 09:58:04 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,197,1170662400"; d="scan'208"; a="763586003:sNHT47276844" Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com (rtp-core-2.cisco.com [64.102.124.13]) by rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1KHw4Gc027312; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:58:04 -0500 Received: from xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-201.cisco.com [64.102.31.12]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l1KHw4OA012304; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:58:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.38]) by xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:58:03 -0500 Received: from [161.44.174.118] ([161.44.174.118]) by xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:58:03 -0500 Message-ID: <45DB36AC.4060607@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 12:58:04 -0500 From: Paul Kyzivat User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Wing Subject: Re: [Sip] connected-identity before 200 Ok References: <018a01c7522d$751ba360$1873150a@amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <018a01c7522d$751ba360$1873150a@amer.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Feb 2007 17:58:03.0597 (UTC) FILETIME=[AAC51FD0:01C75518] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=2821; t=1171994284; x=1172858284; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=pkyzivat@cisco.com; z=From:=20Paul=20Kyzivat=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[Sip]=20connected-identity=20before=20200=20Ok |Sender:=20 |To:=20Dan=20Wing=20; bh=1y1H1DYlH6k+IzeQW8ZBNXDq8Amb9mtfnHeXu8cNp2c=; b=aiHHYMwLc1fdUpEEuo1H33bIc226TyHKosaPcolBYre3UiIQ92lbOIRhOZCL27yA2red6UbI SPleBiRgy+uj8nzTObWUcvMcYW6+C1CRsi6L3//PNmYq20aqGM3II5du; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-2; header.From=pkyzivat@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim2001 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52f7a77164458f8c7b36b66787c853da Cc: sip@ietf.org, ietf-rtpsec@imc.org, john.elwell@siemens.com, Rob Raymond X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Dan, I'm missing something here. I see nothing to prevent using UPDATE (without SDP) for conveying connected identity before the 200. Then the offer/answer can carry on as normal without PRACK. Regarding the validity/non-validity of the call flow below, see draft-ietf-sipping-sip-offeranswer-00. Paul Dan Wing wrote: > This message is a result of some offline discussions with Rob and ample > caffeine consumption on my part. The concern is if PRACK is necessary in > order to use connected-identity before the call is answered in order to > avoid some of the attacks Robin brought up on RTPSEC. > > > Reading RFC3311 (SIP UPDATE), it says: > > o If the UPDATE is being sent before completion of the initial > INVITE transaction, and the initial INVITE contained an offer, > the UPDATE can contain an offer if the callee generated an > answer in a reliable provisional response, and the caller has > received answers to any other offers it sent in either PRACK or > UPDATE, and has generated answers for any offers it received in > an UPDATE from the callee. > > draft-ietf-sip-connected-identity seems to say you need to use PRACK if you > want connected-identity before the 200 Ok: > > After an early dialog has been formed, if the "from-change" option > tag has been received in a Supported header field the UA MAY issue an > UPDATE request (RFC 3311 [4]) on the same dialog, subject to having > sent a reliable provisional response to the INVITE request and having > received and responded to a PRACK request. > > Which I interpret to mean that the following is illegal, even if the SDP in > message 2 and 3 are identical: > > Alice Bob > | | > 1. |--Invite with SDP offer->| > 2. |<--183 with SDP answer---| (183 is unreliable) > 3. |<--UPDATE with SDP-------| > 4. |---Ack Update----------->| > > Please confirm that the above call flow is disallowed per the rules of > RFC3311 and per the rules of draft-ietf-sip-connected-identity. > > > Question: would ICE's "poor-man's PRACK" (as I call it) be sufficient to > meet the needs of RFC3311 and -sip-connected-identity for a reliable > provisional response? ICE's "poor-man's PRACK" is described in > , around > the middle of section 12.1. > > -d > > _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip > _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 20 13:19:08 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJZY3-00020T-MF; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:17:07 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJZY2-00020O-Fg for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:17:06 -0500 Received: from sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com ([171.71.176.70] helo=sj-iport-1.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJZXz-0002Si-Ro for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:17:06 -0500 Received: from rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com ([64.102.121.159]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 20 Feb 2007 10:17:03 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,197,1170662400"; d="scan'208"; a="763590435:sNHT55236620" Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-core-1.cisco.com [64.102.124.12]) by rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1KIH2x7003288; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:17:02 -0500 Received: from xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-211.cisco.com [64.102.31.102]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l1KIH2VT013196; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:17:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.21]) by xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:17:02 -0500 Received: from [161.44.174.118] ([161.44.174.118]) by xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:17:01 -0500 Message-ID: <45DB3B1E.6000703@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:17:02 -0500 From: Paul Kyzivat User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Elwell, John" Subject: Re: [Sip] RE: connected-identity before 200 Ok References: <50B1CBA96870A34799A506B2313F26670B0F8AEC@ntht201e.siemenscomms.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <50B1CBA96870A34799A506B2313F26670B0F8AEC@ntht201e.siemenscomms.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Feb 2007 18:17:01.0684 (UTC) FILETIME=[511F6B40:01C7551B] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=6036; t=1171995422; x=1172859422; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=pkyzivat@cisco.com; z=From:=20Paul=20Kyzivat=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[Sip]=20RE=3A=20connected-identity=20before=20200=20O k |Sender:=20 |To:=20=22Elwell,=20John=22=20; bh=mJ8GeIY/UXgKbXsKyuKqENTh7QSVR5mJsnyQQdSPPU8=; b=JpUT7cGZ84jjSTCmK+JidS22JLQxXSkB+to2uehCwozgr5y3jd31N5s/maC9KvAIHYYZOua6 Q0tYZObJDmbBJxtyw6S3yzQ+fzDCKTjCS862M+Ntyswqu7cPGRa7FGie; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-2; header.From=pkyzivat@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim2001 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8f374d0786b25a451ef87d82c076f593 Cc: sip@ietf.org, ietf-rtpsec@imc.org, Rob Raymond , Dan Wing X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org I didn't see this response when I sent my prior one. And John covers all I did and more. One pragmatic question I have is: does anybody implement UPDATE without also implementing PRACK? While it is technically legal to do so, in practice they are typically used together. I'd be very surprised to see support of one without the other? (Robert: do you have any statistics from SIPIT?) But maybe the issue isn't whether PRACK has been implemented, but rather whether there is a desire to use it. It increases the number of messages used for a typical call, so maybe some will prefer to omit it for that reason. Paul Elwell, John wrote: > Dan, > > The important thing is that there be evidence that the 18x has reached the > calling UA before sending an UPDATE request to the calling UA. Otherwise the > UPDATE request might receive a 481 response. So I suppose the called UA > could send an UPDATE request and be prepared to repeat it (and the 18x > response) if a 481 response is received. This would be another example of > "poor man's PRACK". A problem could arise if the calling UA holds state to > say whether a 18x has been received reliably and rejects an UPDATE request > if not - I guess this depends on how it is implemented in practice. Also a > calling UA that does not implement PRACK might also be unable to accept > UPDATE before answer, but the option tag that indicates support for UPDATE > will not tell you this. > > Another issue is whether the presence or absence of SDP offer in an UPDATE > request has impact on when it can/cannot be sent. If it contains an SDP > offer, obviously it has to obey the strict offer-answer rules, so clearly > has to be sent after any previous offer-answer sequence has completed. > Without waiting for the PRACK it could be dangerous. Consider the following > slightly revised sequence: > > Alice Bob > | | > 1. |--Invite with SDP offer->| > 1a |<--18x without SDP answer| > 2. |x--183 with SDP answer---| (183 is unreliable) > 3. |<--UPDATE with SDP-------| > 4. |---Ack Update----------->| > > The first 18x is send unreliably and established the early dialog. The > second 183 containing SDP answer is lost. The UPDATE request will not > receive a 481 response (because the early dialog is already established) but > the SDP offer will be illegal. It is unclear what response Alice would give. > So in this particular case it is a lot safer to wait for the PRACK. > Therefore I think the > > However, if the UPDATE request does NOT contain an SDP offer (which for > connected-identity purposes it doesn't need to), the following are > questionable: > - the need to wait for PRACK if the 18x is sent reliably; > - the need to send the 18x reliably > - the whether the UPDATE request can be sent even if the only 18x sent does > not contain SDP answer; > - whether an UPDATE request containing an offer for early session > disposition can be sent before the normal answer has been sent or before it > has been acknowledged through PRACK. > > I don't think these points are covered by RFC3311. > > John > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Dan Wing [mailto:dwing@cisco.com] >> Sent: 17 February 2007 00:49 >> To: sip@ietf.org >> Cc: ietf-rtpsec@imc.org; Elwell, John; Rob Raymond >> Subject: connected-identity before 200 Ok >> >> This message is a result of some offline discussions with Rob >> and ample >> caffeine consumption on my part. The concern is if PRACK is >> necessary in >> order to use connected-identity before the call is answered >> in order to >> avoid some of the attacks Robin brought up on RTPSEC. >> >> >> Reading RFC3311 (SIP UPDATE), it says: >> >> o If the UPDATE is being sent before completion of the initial >> INVITE transaction, and the initial INVITE contained >> an offer, >> the UPDATE can contain an offer if the callee generated an >> answer in a reliable provisional response, and the caller has >> received answers to any other offers it sent in >> either PRACK or >> UPDATE, and has generated answers for any offers it >> received in >> an UPDATE from the callee. >> >> draft-ietf-sip-connected-identity seems to say you need to >> use PRACK if you >> want connected-identity before the 200 Ok: >> >> After an early dialog has been formed, if the "from-change" option >> tag has been received in a Supported header field the UA >> MAY issue an >> UPDATE request (RFC 3311 [4]) on the same dialog, subject to having >> sent a reliable provisional response to the INVITE request >> and having >> received and responded to a PRACK request. >> >> Which I interpret to mean that the following is illegal, even >> if the SDP in >> message 2 and 3 are identical: >> >> Alice Bob >> | | >> 1. |--Invite with SDP offer->| >> 2. |<--183 with SDP answer---| (183 is unreliable) >> 3. |<--UPDATE with SDP-------| >> 4. |---Ack Update----------->| >> >> Please confirm that the above call flow is disallowed per the rules of >> RFC3311 and per the rules of draft-ietf-sip-connected-identity. >> >> >> Question: would ICE's "poor-man's PRACK" (as I call it) be >> sufficient to >> meet the needs of RFC3311 and -sip-connected-identity for a reliable >> provisional response? ICE's "poor-man's PRACK" is described in >> > 2.1>, around >> the middle of section 12.1. >> >> -d >> > > _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip > _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 20 13:34:36 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJZo8-0001bZ-HW; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:33:44 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJZo7-0001bT-2X for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:33:43 -0500 Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com ([171.68.10.87]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJZo4-0006RB-LR for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:33:42 -0500 Received: from sj-dkim-3.cisco.com ([171.71.179.195]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 20 Feb 2007 10:33:37 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,197,1170662400"; d="scan'208"; a="391270775:sNHT1377809200" Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (sj-core-2.cisco.com [171.71.177.254]) by sj-dkim-3.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1KIXYhX014206; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:33:34 -0800 Received: from dwingwxp ([10.32.240.194]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l1KIXXGk005277; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:33:33 -0800 (PST) From: "Dan Wing" To: "'Paul Kyzivat'" Subject: RE: [Sip] connected-identity before 200 Ok Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:33:33 -0800 Message-ID: <033401c7551d$a0912db0$c2f0200a@amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <45DB36AC.4060607@cisco.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: AcdVGKsClOaRagUIQq+XxgJfrtQZuQAAjqqA DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=4740; t=1171996414; x=1172860414; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim3002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=dwing@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Dan=20Wing=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20[Sip]=20connected-identity=20before=20200=20Ok |Sender:=20; bh=3ReOiQZdQTL4Mp6K8+t0uc3y9RPxTaH6zKdtJ7+ATtU=; b=RZfJCYQBOdqf6+VLXT0IiU3VNR16f0JErwaVvfEobqNjIaBmU5QmxwiKYgkQ9Jl17q+fq/Lx OmRqP1PFXcXQaoD8SYMXt1QfxFvBuzL8vGcxUthHpQgQgj28gC6Ad/Po; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-3; header.From=dwing@cisco.com; dkim=pass (s ig from cisco.com/sjdkim3002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 5d7a7e767f20255fce80fa0b77fb2433 Cc: sip@ietf.org, ietf-rtpsec@imc.org, john.elwell@siemens.com, 'Rob Raymond' X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org > I'm missing something here. I see nothing to prevent using UPDATE > (without SDP) for conveying connected identity before the > 200. But we need the SDP signed. 1. Without SRTP: The SDP answer needs to be signed for all the reasons the body (SDP offer) was signed in SIP-Identity. Otherwise, an attacker could send an SDP answer containing his own IP address, and the offerer would believe it. This allows the attacker to play media to the calling party, and the calling party has no way to defend against such an attacker because there was never any signed SDP. 2. With crypto: When we have cryptographic mechanisms to associate the signaling with the media path (such as with comedia-tls [RFC4572] and DTLS-SRTP), the problem is more acute, because it's a full-on requirement that an attacker be unable to inject malicious media into the path. If we can't get the a=fingerprint signed using SIP-Identity, we cannot prevent that attack. I understand everyone is happy with the state of (1), which is what connected-identity permits today. That's fine. The reason I started this thread was to clarify that we can, in the near future, extend the protections we can get with Connected-Identity to protect us from attackers when we are doing (2). > Then the offer/answer can carry on as normal without PRACK. > > Regarding the validity/non-validity of the call flow below, see > draft-ietf-sipping-sip-offeranswer-00. Thanks for the pointer. Its section 3.1 says: Therefore, to make implementations simple, a UA acting as a UAS for INVITE transaction is recommended not to send a UPDATE request with an offer until the reliable response with an answer to the offer in the INVITE request is acknowledged with PRACK ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ request. ^^^^^^^ Here, too, I would wonder aloud if ICE's "poor man's PRACK" is sufficient to meet the needs of the highlighted phrase. -d > Paul > > Dan Wing wrote: > > This message is a result of some offline discussions with > Rob and ample > > caffeine consumption on my part. The concern is if PRACK > is necessary in > > order to use connected-identity before the call is answered > in order to > > avoid some of the attacks Robin brought up on RTPSEC. > > > > > > Reading RFC3311 (SIP UPDATE), it says: > > > > o If the UPDATE is being sent before completion of > the initial > > INVITE transaction, and the initial INVITE > contained an offer, > > the UPDATE can contain an offer if the callee generated an > > answer in a reliable provisional response, and the > caller has > > received answers to any other offers it sent in > either PRACK or > > UPDATE, and has generated answers for any offers > it received in > > an UPDATE from the callee. > > > > draft-ietf-sip-connected-identity seems to say you need to > use PRACK if you > > want connected-identity before the 200 Ok: > > > > After an early dialog has been formed, if the > "from-change" option > > tag has been received in a Supported header field the UA > MAY issue an > > UPDATE request (RFC 3311 [4]) on the same dialog, > subject to having > > sent a reliable provisional response to the INVITE > request and having > > received and responded to a PRACK request. > > > > Which I interpret to mean that the following is illegal, > even if the SDP in > > message 2 and 3 are identical: > > > > Alice Bob > > | | > > 1. |--Invite with SDP offer->| > > 2. |<--183 with SDP answer---| (183 is unreliable) > > 3. |<--UPDATE with SDP-------| > > 4. |---Ack Update----------->| > > > > Please confirm that the above call flow is disallowed per > the rules of > > RFC3311 and per the rules of draft-ietf-sip-connected-identity. > > > > > > Question: would ICE's "poor-man's PRACK" (as I call it) be > sufficient to > > meet the needs of RFC3311 and -sip-connected-identity for a reliable > > provisional response? ICE's "poor-man's PRACK" is described in > > > 2.1>, around > > the middle of section 12.1. > > > > -d > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip > > _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sscoveyfteymw@arcor-ip.net Tue Feb 20 15:23:02 2007 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJbVu-000429-ER; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:23:02 -0500 Received: from dslb-084-061-022-089.pools.arcor-ip.net ([84.61.22.89] helo=arcor-ip.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJbVl-0003ON-9T; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:23:02 -0500 Message-ID: Reply-To: "Gertude Fuller" From: "Gertude Fuller" To: "Trang Baker" Cc: "Hildegard Wood" , "Kevin Gibson" , "Rena" , "Christoper" , "Jonathan" , "Lilli Jordan" , "Lia" , "Sara Turner" , "Lucienne Willis" , "Palmer" , "Odessa Cox" Subject: Tell Me.. 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Having osteoid seen servant Jacopo fairly wink tongue out of the harbor, = Dant   
knee "Of the middle touch know briefly height--about the same stature as = hpage "It is the imagine same poor thing. lept You have told your coachma= nplant "You are a born diplomat," ant adjustment baby returned Franz; "go= and"These fear compete hilly smote are my words exactly."  &nb= sp;   
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care "Thanks rat for the comparison," said hop slip Albert, with a bc= ost glove "Well, this leap destruction route is impossible."twist "Well,"= said epithetic Franz, chew "anything add new?--do they refusestick "I?--= I grip live the coach happiest limit life possible, the real l  = ; 
A week pot shakily passed bear by. Dants throve employed it in manoeuvrin=  paddle "Well," expect returned Morrel, "it is detail froze a cruel = thing to b     stick "Have you no friends lazily= who could army trap assist you?" Morrel  
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"Thank you, my good steam silk friend. I see nest ovine that I have madem= ist quick "And will that be the first time frightened false you ever took= tha         
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Y9pUKQUTxyyVFsFUODRqwjYRsTSUuW8kVZYgi+acKpLmSas4ta4k+5RqwZVcpX58i1UXiTFLpyh1 CnKkwHcSJzpM6PfhIL4oZfpLdxbsVLF/ubIYeFivVcNfGw8mHNgt2yiC93Gra+WzzWCypvGS9kpW rNXPgKFKjcQZytFjfcWWTVtytlk8ScM+5hvWMNXOdA4qaZs1b+AQR5fedxc0lATipFvH3AH4OpFG brRzxCra+xAGfsSbb35+CHc5z9JPkRXIfQ9M3eTbv48/fxxMG/XboO5fgAIOSCAJ4dRXYAsIeJRg gw4+yFE45UFoAnX9UYhhhhruoMACE24oQgIegkhiiSRSh6CJAIQTnoouvpgfJghcCCMm3KQIY446 1qXAgi3u2CMDQgbRhxFGHolkkkouyWSTTj4JZZRSTklllVZeiWWWWlIZhJAMIIDjjgYqsGWZZp6J Zppqrslmm1AqQKOYcs5JZ5123olnnnruyWeffv4JaKCCDkpooYYeiuh9IQAAOw== ------=_NextPart_78A_6288_15FBB12F.A35AF7A2-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 20 16:47:08 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJcnM-0008SN-5Z; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:45:08 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJcnK-0008SA-RZ for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:45:06 -0500 Received: from smtp1.versatel.nl ([62.58.50.88]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJcnJ-00075n-GK for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:45:06 -0500 Received: (qmail 27321 invoked by uid 0); 20 Feb 2007 21:46:13 -0000 Received: from ip198-11-212-87.adsl2.versatel.nl (HELO BEMBUSTER) ([87.212.11.198]) (envelope-sender ) by smtp1.versatel.nl (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for < >; 20 Feb 2007 21:46:13 -0000 Message-ID: <005f01c75538$5f9924f0$0601a8c0@BEMBUSTER> From: "Jeroen van Bemmel" To: "Paul Kyzivat" , "Elwell, John" References: <50B1CBA96870A34799A506B2313F26670B0F8AEC@ntht201e.siemenscomms.co.uk> <45DB3B1E.6000703@cisco.com> Subject: Re: [Sip] RE: connected-identity before 200 Ok Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:45:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Cc: sip@ietf.org, ietf-rtpsec@imc.org, Rob Raymond , Dan Wing X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Paul Kyzivat wrote: > I didn't see this response when I sent my prior one. And John covers > all I did and more. > > One pragmatic question I have is: does anybody implement UPDATE > without also implementing PRACK? While it is technically legal to do > so, in practice they are typically used together. I'd be very > surprised to see support of one without the other? > A typical reason for supporting UPDATE but not PRACK could be RFC4028 (session timers). That is, UPDATE without an offer. Now we'll have a second one: connected identity Regards, Jeroen _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 20 17:02:36 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJd3G-0001rr-E8; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:01:34 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJd3F-0001na-4V for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:01:33 -0500 Received: from py-out-1112.google.com ([64.233.166.176]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJd3D-0002QB-MY for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:01:33 -0500 Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id f47so1187999pye for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:01:29 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type; b=P3V7bmcpsHrvfbFxo9gHrX8fOi05ip1+G65i0apsPCAvtLk45Jq9a7/jR3Va9myQRWK9UUBd0PQcGaOQUpLqOnxLzHOwUcHMdBLA6W3xtcTBKofb9f85K1yCruI6KsTVz7BcK39bn6jRDgvNJgV7vjU0OLZWVy8P3MYG0iFJSJQ= Received: by 10.35.38.17 with SMTP id q17mr17610914pyj.1172008888465; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:01:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.1.2? ( [76.184.12.79]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id 15sm44868640nzp.2007.02.20.14.01.24; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:01:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <45DB6FAD.6010301@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:01:17 -0600 From: Khairunnisa Hassanali User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Rajeev Narang (ranarang)" Subject: Re: [Sip] Question on RFC 3325- handling of SIP requests with malformed syntax References: In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2ed806e2f53ff1a061ad4f97e00345ac Cc: sip@ietf.org X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0463081302==" Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0463081302== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------010203080308090800040705" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010203080308090800040705 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rajeev Narang (ranarang) wrote: > Hi, > > I have a question on RFC 3325 in regard to handling of SIP requests > for the following e.g:- > 1) Having malformed syntax for PAI or PPI header? Should UA send 400 > Bad Request or ignore it. > > Text from rfc " A P-Asserted-Identity header field value MUST > consist of exactly one > name-addr or addr-spec". > > 2) Having more then 2 PAI or PPI headers? Should UA send 400 Bad > Request or ignore it. > Having 2 PAI, both with sip URI?. Should UA send 400 Bad Request > or ignore it. > Having 2 PAI, both with sips URI?. Should UA send 400 Bad Request > or ignore it. > Having 2 PAI, both with tel URI?. Should UA send 400 Bad Request > or ignore it. > Having 2 PAI, one with sip URI and other with tel URI. The sip URI > is having correct syntax and tel URI having bad syntax?. Should UA > send 400 Bad Request or ignore it. > > Text from rfc " There may be one or two P-Asserted-Identity > values. If there is one value, it MUST be a sip, sips, or tel URI. > If there are two values, one value MUST be a sip or sips URI and the > other MUST be a tel URI." > > > Thanks, > Rajeev > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip Hi, In case the PAI/PPI header is malformed the request should be rejected with a 400 Bad Request header. In cases, where the previous hop is from a trusted domain the PAI takes precedence over the From header and should be used as the callers identity. A PPI header is generally of no importance to the endpoint and is used by the privacy server for choosing the appropriate identity to be inserted into the outgoing message. Similiarly, in the scenario mentioned above the request should be rejected with a 4xx response. Regards Nisha --------------010203080308090800040705 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rajeev Narang (ranarang) wrote:
Hi,
 
I have a question on RFC 3325 in regard to handling of SIP requests for the following e.g:-
1) Having malformed syntax for PAI or PPI header? Should UA send 400 Bad Request or ignore it.
 
   Text from rfc " A P-Asserted-Identity header field value MUST consist of exactly one
   name-addr or addr-spec".
 
2) Having more then 2 PAI or PPI headers? Should UA send 400 Bad Request or ignore it.
    Having 2 PAI, both with sip URI?. Should UA send 400 Bad Request or ignore it.
    Having 2 PAI, both with sips URI?. Should UA send 400 Bad Request or ignore it.
    Having 2 PAI, both with tel URI?. Should UA send 400 Bad Request or ignore it.
    Having 2 PAI, one with sip URI and other with tel URI. The sip URI is having correct syntax and tel URI having bad syntax?. Should UA send 400 Bad Request or ignore it.
  
   Text from rfc " There may be one or two P-Asserted-Identity
   values.  If there is one value, it MUST be a sip, sips, or tel URI.
   If there are two values, one value MUST be a sip or sips URI and the
   other MUST be a tel URI."
 
 
Thanks,
Rajeev
 
 

_______________________________________________
Sip mailing list  https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip
This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol
Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip
Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip
Hi,

    In case the PAI/PPI header is malformed the request should be rejected with a 400 Bad Request header. In cases, where the previous hop is from a trusted domain the PAI takes precedence over the From header and should be used as the callers identity. A PPI header is generally of no importance to the endpoint and is used by the privacy server for choosing the appropriate identity to be inserted into the outgoing message.
     Similiarly, in the scenario mentioned above the request should be rejected with a 4xx response.
Regards
Nisha
--------------010203080308090800040705-- --===============0463081302== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --===============0463081302==-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 20 21:24:38 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJh7t-0005wR-B1; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:22:37 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJh7s-0005qJ-1g for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:22:36 -0500 Received: from alnrmhc16.comcast.net ([204.127.225.96]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJh7p-0000FK-Mv for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:22:35 -0500 Received: from dragon.ariadne.com (dworley.hsd1.ma.comcast.net[24.34.79.42]) by comcast.net (alnrmhc16) with ESMTP id <20070221022152b1600b958qe>; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 02:22:33 +0000 Received: from dragon.ariadne.com (dragon.ariadne.com [127.0.0.1]) by dragon.ariadne.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id l1L2Lq6g022141 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:21:52 -0500 Received: (from worley@localhost) by dragon.ariadne.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id l1L2LqRs022137; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:21:52 -0500 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:21:52 -0500 Message-Id: <200702210221.l1L2LqRs022137@dragon.ariadne.com> To: sip@ietf.org From: Dale.Worley@comcast.net X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Subject: [Sip] I-D on implementing GRUU X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org I've updated an Internet-Draft giving condensed instructions for UA implementors on how to implement GRUU support. (This is updated for version -11 of the GRUU I-D, but it only discusses "public GRUUs", which is what we need for our environment.) In our product's environment (a "true SIP", proxy-based PBX), we've found that to do call control well, the UAs need to implement (public) GRUU. This I-D summarizes what UAs need to do Guidelines for Implementing the GRUU Support in User Agents draft-worley-sip-gruu-implement-02 http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-worley-sip-gruu-implement-02.txt Abstract Several applications of the Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) require a user agent (UA) to construct and distribute a URI which can be used by anyone on the Internet to route a request to that specific UA instance. A URI which routes to a specific UA instance is called a Globally Routable UA URI (GRUU). An Internet-Draft is progressing toward standardization that specifies procedures for proxies and UAs by which proxies can construct and delver GRUUs to UAs that request them. This document summarizes for UA implementors how to obtain "public" GRUUs and gives guidance on effectively using public GRUUs. Feel free to contact me with any comments. Dale _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 20 22:52:25 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJiVh-00076X-Ev; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:51:17 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJiVg-00076S-0E for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:51:16 -0500 Received: from alnrmhc11.comcast.net ([204.127.225.91]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJiVb-0001YC-OG for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:51:15 -0500 Received: from dragon.ariadne.com (dworley.hsd1.ma.comcast.net[24.34.79.42]) by comcast.net (alnrmhc11) with ESMTP id <20070221035028b110030tlce>; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 03:51:08 +0000 Received: from dragon.ariadne.com (dragon.ariadne.com [127.0.0.1]) by dragon.ariadne.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id l1L2H16g021776 for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:17:01 -0500 Received: (from worley@localhost) by dragon.ariadne.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id l1L2H11q021772; Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:17:01 -0500 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:17:01 -0500 Message-Id: <200702210217.l1L2H11q021772@dragon.ariadne.com> To: sip@ietf.org From: Dale.Worley@comcast.net X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Subject: [Sip] I-D on practical requirements for the dialog event package X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org I've submitted an Internet-Draft giving guidelines for UAs that want to implement the dialog event package. In our product's environment (a "true SIP", proxy-based PBX), we've found that to do call control well, the UAs need to implement the dialog event package well. This I-D describes the needed requirements. (If you want to test your UA against the guidelines, you can use our interoperability server at http://interop.pingtel.com.) Guidelines for Implementing the Dialog Event Package in User Agents draft-worley-sip-dialog-03 http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-worley-sip-dialog-03.txt Abstract This document sets out guidelines for how Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) user agents (UAs) should implement the dialog event package in order to be usable in systems that implement end-point controlled call-control (EPCC) features. The guidelines are in addition to the basic requirements for dialog event package implementation in RFC 3265 and RFC 4235. Feel free to contact me with any comments. Dale _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From dhybczj@wanadoo.fr Wed Feb 21 04:26:31 2007 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJnk7-0008Un-R7 for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 04:26:31 -0500 Received: from alyon-152-1-87-82.w86-200.abo.wanadoo.fr ([86.200.246.82]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJnk6-0003pR-4t for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 04:26:31 -0500 From: "youll find" To: sip-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Top Market News Headlines Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:26:32 -0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0002_01C755A2.C171C4B0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: AcdVosFx1feNLcSVQVaa0tyLk2vbZg== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Message-Id: <151DA139D9C7FD1.55F76F89B3@wanadoo.fr> X-Spam-Score: 4.0 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C755A2.C171C4B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C755A2.C171C4B0-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 21 14:51:41 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJxT9-0003S9-8f; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 14:49:39 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJB8A-0001rj-0P for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 11:12:46 -0500 Received: from mail1.exchange.microsoft.com ([131.107.1.17] helo=mail.exchange.microsoft.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJB86-0006Na-J2 for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 11:12:45 -0500 Received: from df-bhd-01.exchange.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.54.216) by DF-GWY-05.exchange.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.63.146) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.0.685.24; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 08:12:42 -0800 Received: from DF-MASTIFF-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.61.166]) by df-bhd-01.exchange.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.54.216]) with mapi; Mon, 19 Feb 2007 08:12:41 -0800 From: Sean Olson To: "Christer Holmberg (JO/LMF)" , Dean Willis , Cullen Jennings Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 08:12:40 -0800 Subject: RE: [Sip] RE: Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) Thread-Topic: [Sip] RE: Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) Thread-Index: AcdSMTzoTJmXCX+jQoqaVY1Dh/5jcgBuAsCQABWjZNA= Message-ID: <4C1596FBF66C67478BCFE7B3F81FC1E0178476B911@DF-MASTIFF-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> References: <45D65825.2070405@softarmor.com> <7374777208BDC7449D5620EF94232567021CE506@esealmw113.eemea.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: <7374777208BDC7449D5620EF94232567021CE506@esealmw113.eemea.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 37af5f8fbf6f013c5b771388e24b09e7 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 14:49:38 -0500 Cc: SIP , Rohan Mahy , Juha Heinanen X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org If you changed the standard to remove UDP entirely, would UDP implementatio= ns go away? No. If you changed the standard to remove TCP entirely, would TCP implementatio= ns go away? No. Are there technical problems with UDP? Yes Are there technical problems with TCP? Yes Are there implementations that are UDP only? Yes Are there implementations that are TCP only? Yes Are there implementations that do both? Yes Odd discussion ... the market will always be somewhat independent of standa= rds if for no other reason than that implementations generally lag standard= s and standards don't solve all possible problems for all possible situatio= ns. -----Original Message----- From: Christer Holmberg (JO/LMF) [mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com] Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 9:57 PM To: Dean Willis; Cullen Jennings Cc: SIP; Rohan Mahy; Juha Heinanen Subject: [Sip] RE: Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) Hi, When people indicate whether they believe/don't believe UDP will fade away, I think it would be very important - especially if we in the most extreme case are going to throw away UDP from SIP completely - that people indicate WHY they think so. At the UDP-will-not-fade-away camp I have seen one reply where "MARKET SITUATION" is mentioned, and Dean indicated that his sponsor has shipped large number of non-TCP implementations. Important input, I think. For those who DO think that UDP will go away - what is that belief based on? Market/deployment situation, theoretical problems that may occur, or simply wishful thinking? :) Someone also mentioned that, by defining SIP 3.0 and removing UDP, people will be "forced" to switch from UDP to TCP. I don't think it works exactly like that... Regards, Christer > -----Original Message----- > From: Dean Willis [mailto:dean.willis@softarmor.com] > Sent: 17. helmikuuta 2007 3:20 > To: Cullen Jennings > Cc: Christer Holmberg (JO/LMF); Juha Heinanen; SIP; Rohan Mahy > Subject: Re: Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) > > Cullen Jennings wrote: > > > > On Feb 15, 2007, at 4:08 PM, Dean Willis wrote: > >> So, what do you people believe? > >> > >> 1) Do you believe that UDP transport of large messages > will aggravate > >> the congestion impact of SIP on the Internet (I personally > do, just > >> so you know my bias). > >> > >> 2) Will UDP fade away from SIP relatively soon? > >> > >> 3) If UDP will fade away, do we need to burden TCP-only > >> implementations with a more complex keepalive protocol designed > >> originally for UDP? > >> > >> 4) If UDP will fade away, do we need to account for UDP at all in > >> outbound? > >> > >> 5) If UDP will NOT fade away relatively soon, and TCP will > not scale > >> relatively soon, then do you believe that we need a transition > >> mechanism so that we can register and keepalive using UDP, > then bring > >> up short-lived TCP connections for large messages as Marc's draft > >> proposes? > >> > >> 6) If you agree with #1 but think UDP will not fade away and don't > >> see the need for #5, then I either want to know what sort of > >> alternative you envision, because we're going to need one. > >> > >> -- > >> Dean > > > > Is that an email sent with your chair hat on ? > > > Yes, and I can't spell "Poll". > > I want to know what people believe so I can get a feel for consensus. > > I thought we were closing on one, and now I think it's > slipping away, and I suspect there are good reasons it is > slipping away. > > -- > Dean > > _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 21 16:17:43 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJyoM-0008Km-Ne; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 16:15:38 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJyoL-0008Ke-Dt for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 16:15:37 -0500 Received: from web50811.mail.yahoo.com ([206.190.39.106]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJyoK-0005E2-4w for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 16:15:37 -0500 Received: (qmail 75986 invoked by uid 60001); 21 Feb 2007 21:15:32 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=26SUnkBCkOGiP8ROyD6ABKXQdv4bD6QVAuP0GF117dQDIPf5RCiLKNrv7mzAoHY4iErjCRnnxR8Rt1oVlWNuN+QaWMwTieq3xd4YUDbX43Dz7R60XvBfcooUowFAoqX5tpl2xLLrhJVT2LDCwydKOoAMKFe8eCF5239J9rSiRrw=; X-YMail-OSG: AdiKx94VM1nIVA12.wRTyw9dgovVACGPRGAA.CKXO4qgkEVLhruaOzIqlnPx3rQzAB882wkOiSwzI34_CxjX2_RYWjaV3.8d7UFqsZD.IDePNJ31kypQ2Zs3bFj.M078I5F39rmi_wFgPJDI1L1wcwI- Received: from [69.63.123.101] by web50811.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 13:15:32 PST Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 13:15:32 -0800 (PST) From: arun kumar To: sip@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <548934.72713.qm@web50811.mail.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Subject: [Sip] Simulation Sofware using VC++ X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Hi, Could someone plesae suggest me some simulation software for SIP that i can modify using VC++. This is an essential part of my masters thesis and any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. - Arun. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 21 17:13:45 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJzhq-00074l-MO; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 17:12:58 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJzhp-000742-LB for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 17:12:57 -0500 Received: from celine.siteprotect.com ([64.26.0.6]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJzho-0003xA-7C for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 17:12:57 -0500 Received: from cornfed (dhcp64-134-214-146.sptc.dca.wayport.net [64.134.214.146]) by celine.siteprotect.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l1LMB6p22921; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 16:11:06 -0600 From: "Frank W. Miller" To: "'Sean Olson'" , "'Christer Holmberg \(JO/LMF\)'" , "'Dean Willis'" , "'Cullen Jennings'" Subject: RE: [Sip] RE: Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:11:06 -0700 Message-ID: <002401c75605$303d56e0$92d68640@cornfed> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: <4C1596FBF66C67478BCFE7B3F81FC1E0178476B911@DF-MASTIFF-MSG.exchange.corp.microsoft.com> Importance: Normal X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 995b2e24d23b953c94bac5288c432399 Cc: 'SIP' , 'Rohan Mahy' , 'Juha Heinanen' X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Let me describe my opinion a little differently. The reason that there are implementations that use both UDP and TCP is because the standard allows for it. Indeed, one of the selling points of SIP early on was that it was transport independent, i.e. you could pass SIP over any transport you liked. UDP was arguably the "first" transport. What I mean is, most of the initial work wrt transport was done based on it but always with the idea that it was not exclusive. TCP was given less coverage initially but has become more important recently primarily (from what I've observed) because it behaves "better" with NATs. There have always been cursory discussions about using something like SCTP but as has already been noted, this transport is a tiny percentage of the overall usage out there. So, my point is this, I think that the need for transport independence is really the heart of the issue here. I think that a single transport is fine and that TCP makes the most sense as that single transport. Here are my reasons: 1) a single transport will improve interoperability 2) TCP as the single transport will traverse NATs more predictably that UDP (and presumably SCTP although I'm not an expert in SCTP) 3) TCP as the single transport has the potential to simplify the SIP protocol quite a bit, e.g. all the timer stuff is unnecessary 4) there are few (if any) deployment situations where UDP would work but TCP would not So, that said, a comment about the "standard" as a concept. While I agree with you that the market will use both for some period of time, remember that the use of both is there now because the standard allowed for it. The standard defines what the implementations need to do. If the standard deprecates multiple transports, then the implementations will follow, they have to otherwise they won't interoperate. FM -----Original Message----- From: Sean Olson [mailto:seanol@exchange.microsoft.com] Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 9:13 AM To: Christer Holmberg (JO/LMF); Dean Willis; Cullen Jennings Cc: SIP; Rohan Mahy; Juha Heinanen Subject: RE: [Sip] RE: Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) If you changed the standard to remove UDP entirely, would UDP implementations go away? No. If you changed the standard to remove TCP entirely, would TCP implementations go away? No. Are there technical problems with UDP? Yes Are there technical problems with TCP? Yes Are there implementations that are UDP only? Yes Are there implementations that are TCP only? Yes Are there implementations that do both? Yes Odd discussion ... the market will always be somewhat independent of standards if for no other reason than that implementations generally lag standards and standards don't solve all possible problems for all possible situations. -----Original Message----- From: Christer Holmberg (JO/LMF) [mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com] Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 9:57 PM To: Dean Willis; Cullen Jennings Cc: SIP; Rohan Mahy; Juha Heinanen Subject: [Sip] RE: Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) Hi, When people indicate whether they believe/don't believe UDP will fade away, I think it would be very important - especially if we in the most extreme case are going to throw away UDP from SIP completely - that people indicate WHY they think so. At the UDP-will-not-fade-away camp I have seen one reply where "MARKET SITUATION" is mentioned, and Dean indicated that his sponsor has shipped large number of non-TCP implementations. Important input, I think. For those who DO think that UDP will go away - what is that belief based on? Market/deployment situation, theoretical problems that may occur, or simply wishful thinking? :) Someone also mentioned that, by defining SIP 3.0 and removing UDP, people will be "forced" to switch from UDP to TCP. I don't think it works exactly like that... Regards, Christer > -----Original Message----- > From: Dean Willis [mailto:dean.willis@softarmor.com] > Sent: 17. helmikuuta 2007 3:20 > To: Cullen Jennings > Cc: Christer Holmberg (JO/LMF); Juha Heinanen; SIP; Rohan Mahy > Subject: Re: Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) > > Cullen Jennings wrote: > > > > On Feb 15, 2007, at 4:08 PM, Dean Willis wrote: > >> So, what do you people believe? > >> > >> 1) Do you believe that UDP transport of large messages > will aggravate > >> the congestion impact of SIP on the Internet (I personally > do, just > >> so you know my bias). > >> > >> 2) Will UDP fade away from SIP relatively soon? > >> > >> 3) If UDP will fade away, do we need to burden TCP-only > >> implementations with a more complex keepalive protocol designed > >> originally for UDP? > >> > >> 4) If UDP will fade away, do we need to account for UDP at all in > >> outbound? > >> > >> 5) If UDP will NOT fade away relatively soon, and TCP will > not scale > >> relatively soon, then do you believe that we need a transition > >> mechanism so that we can register and keepalive using UDP, > then bring > >> up short-lived TCP connections for large messages as Marc's draft > >> proposes? > >> > >> 6) If you agree with #1 but think UDP will not fade away and don't > >> see the need for #5, then I either want to know what sort of > >> alternative you envision, because we're going to need one. > >> > >> -- > >> Dean > > > > Is that an email sent with your chair hat on ? > > > Yes, and I can't spell "Poll". > > I want to know what people believe so I can get a feel for consensus. > > I thought we were closing on one, and now I think it's > slipping away, and I suspect there are good reasons it is > slipping away. > > -- > Dean > > _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 21 17:20:46 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJzoH-0000CA-DB; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 17:19:37 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJzoF-0000C3-Ln for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 17:19:35 -0500 Received: from nylon.softarmor.com ([66.135.38.164]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJzoE-0004WI-AV for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 17:19:35 -0500 Received: from [64.101.172.227] ([64.101.172.227]) (authenticated bits=0) by nylon.softarmor.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l1LLPAXt023308 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:25:11 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <0F8A0391-212D-4485-A470-652505BFBC2D@softarmor.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: SIP IETF From: Dean Willis Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 16:19:23 -0600 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Subject: [Sip] Interest check: draft on certificate-based authentication X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org The relatively new draft: http://tools.ietf.org/wg/sip/draft-dotson-sip-certificate-auth- sol-00.txt attempts to resolve the requirements raised in: http://tools.ietf.org/wg/sip/draft-dotson-sip-certificate-auth-02.txt As solutions drafts go, this one is substantially incomplete (for example, the Security section is basically nonexistent). But I think the general approach being taken looks reasonable, and that the problem being solved is a real problem that needs to be solved. The very real issues with digest authentication are pretty well understood, and this sort of technique looks like it will provide a very useful alternative. So I'd like to ask the group to take a look at these drafts and start thinking about what we, as a working group, need to do in this area. We're perhaps not ready to take on new work at this time, but I expect we will be before too much longer. Is this a problem we should be addressing? -- Dean Willis co-chair _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 21 17:24:56 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJztF-000332-0P; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 17:24:45 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJztE-00032u-0r for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 17:24:44 -0500 Received: from shaman.nostrum.com ([72.232.15.10] helo=nostrum.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HJztC-0005Fo-Ma for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 17:24:43 -0500 Received: from [172.17.1.65] (vicuna-alt.estacado.net [75.53.54.121]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l1LMNLAR056584 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 21 Feb 2007 16:23:22 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) In-Reply-To: <002401c75605$303d56e0$92d68640@cornfed> References: <002401c75605$303d56e0$92d68640@cornfed> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-Id: <35A64768-06B2-4291-BCCC-C2E676E3FE9C@nostrum.com> From: Robert Sparks Subject: Re: [Sip] RE: Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 16:23:21 -0600 To: "Frank W. Miller" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Received-SPF: pass (nostrum.com: 75.53.54.121 is authenticated by a trusted mechanism) X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 244a2fd369eaf00ce6820a760a3de2e8 Cc: 'Cullen Jennings' , 'Rohan Mahy' , 'SIP' , 'Sean Olson' , "'Christer Holmberg \(JO/LMF\)'" , 'Juha Heinanen' , 'Dean Willis' X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1500785922==" Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org --===============1500785922== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-22-515872881 --Apple-Mail-22-515872881 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed I'm staying mostly out of this conversation for now, but this point is potentially misleading and I want to make sure someone points it out quickly: On Feb 21, 2007, at 4:11 PM, Frank W. Miller wrote: > 3) TCP as the single transport has the potential to simplify the SIP > protocol quite a bit, e.g. all the timer stuff is unnecessary There is _some_ UDP specific timer behavior that you could remove if we somehow removed all possibility of non-reliable transports from the protocol (*cough*DTLS*cough*). Not all timer behavior would go away. NITs (and ACKs) would still time out. Proxies would still retain Timer C. (If altering these behaviors are in the scope of this thread, you're _way_ outside the bounds of talking about fixing a transport congestion issue). RjS --Apple-Mail-22-515872881 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 I'm staying mostly out of this = conversation for now, but this point is potentially misleading and I = want to make sure someone points it out quickly:

On Feb 21, 2007, at = 4:11 PM, Frank W. Miller wrote:

3) TCP as the single = transport has the potential to simplify the SIP

protocol quite a bit, e.g. = all the timer stuff is unnecessary

=

There is _some_ UDP specific timer behavior = that you could remove if we somehow removed=A0 all possibility = of
non-reliable transports=A0from the protocol = (*cough*DTLS*cough*).

Not all timer behavior = would go away. NITs=A0 (and ACKs) would still time out. Proxies would = still retain Timer C.
(If altering these behaviors are in the = scope of this thread, you're _way_ outside the bounds of talking = about
=A0fixing a transport congestion issue).

RjS



= --Apple-Mail-22-515872881-- --===============1500785922== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --===============1500785922==-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 21 17:35:05 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HK02v-0003y1-AR; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 17:34:45 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HK01w-0003Ef-Js for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 17:33:44 -0500 Received: from celine.siteprotect.com ([64.26.0.6]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HK00e-0006qU-BU for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 17:32:25 -0500 Received: from cornfed (dhcp64-134-214-146.sptc.dca.wayport.net [64.134.214.146]) by celine.siteprotect.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l1LMUap24938; Wed, 21 Feb 2007 16:30:36 -0600 From: "Frank W. Miller" To: "'Robert Sparks'" Subject: RE: [Sip] RE: Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:30:35 -0700 Message-ID: <003e01c75607$e8d261d0$92d68640@cornfed> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 In-Reply-To: <35A64768-06B2-4291-BCCC-C2E676E3FE9C@nostrum.com> Importance: Normal X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 06d29b9b22258f4f07fe89b4d4a05a86 Cc: 'Cullen Jennings' , 'Rohan Mahy' , 'SIP' , 'Sean Olson' , 'Dean Willis' , 'Juha Heinanen' , "'Christer Holmberg \(JO/LMF\)'" X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0585607540==" Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0585607540== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003F_01C755CD.3C7389D0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C755CD.3C7389D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Acknowledged, message transmissions only. "All" is too strong. FM -----Original Message----- From: Robert Sparks [mailto:rjsparks@nostrum.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 3:23 PM To: Frank W. Miller Cc: 'Cullen Jennings'; 'Rohan Mahy'; 'SIP'; 'Sean Olson'; 'Christer Holmberg (JO/LMF)'; 'Juha Heinanen'; 'Dean Willis' Subject: Re: [Sip] RE: Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) I'm staying mostly out of this conversation for now, but this point is potentially misleading and I want to make sure someone points it out quickly: On Feb 21, 2007, at 4:11 PM, Frank W. Miller wrote: 3) TCP as the single transport has the potential to simplify the SIP protocol quite a bit, e.g. all the timer stuff is unnecessary There is _some_ UDP specific timer behavior that you could remove if we somehow removed all possibility of non-reliable transports from the protocol (*cough*DTLS*cough*). Not all timer behavior would go away. NITs (and ACKs) would still time out. Proxies would still retain Timer C. (If altering these behaviors are in the scope of this thread, you're _way_ outside the bounds of talking about fixing a transport congestion issue). RjS ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C755CD.3C7389D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Acknowledged, = message transmissions only.

 

“All” is too = strong.

 

 

FM

 

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: Robert Sparks [mailto:rjsparks@nostrum.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February = 21, 2007 3:23 PM
To: Frank W. Miller
Cc: 'Cullen Jennings'; = 'Rohan Mahy'; 'SIP'; 'Sean Olson'; 'Christer Holmberg (JO/LMF)'; 'Juha = Heinanen'; 'Dean Willis'
Subject: Re: [Sip] RE: = Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread)

 

I'm staying mostly out of this conversation = for now, but this point is potentially misleading and I want to make sure someone = points it out quickly:

 

On Feb 21, 2007, at 4:11 PM, Frank W. Miller = wrote:



3) TCP as the single transport has the = potential to simplify the SIP

protocol quite a bit, e.g. all the timer = stuff is unnecessary

 

There is _some_ UDP specific timer behavior = that you could remove if we somehow removed  all possibility = of

non-reliable transports from the = protocol (*cough*DTLS*cough*).

 

Not all timer behavior would go away. = NITs  (and ACKs) would still time out. Proxies would still retain Timer = C.

(If altering these behaviors are in the scope = of this thread, you're _way_ outside the bounds of talking = about

 fixing a transport congestion = issue).

 

RjS

 

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C755CD.3C7389D0-- --===============0585607540== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --===============0585607540==-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 22 03:13:29 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HK93H-0002NN-To; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 03:11:43 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HK93F-0002MK-KL for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 03:11:41 -0500 Received: from co300216-ier2.net.avaya.com ([198.152.13.103]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HK93E-0008UE-86 for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 03:11:41 -0500 Received: from cof110avexu1.global.avaya.com (h135-9-6-16.avaya.com [135.9.6.16]) by co300216-ier2.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.8/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id l1M8BcA4010182 for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 03:11:39 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Sip] Interest check: draft on certificate-based authentication Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 01:11:41 -0700 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Sip] Interest check: draft on certificate-based authentication Thread-Index: AcdWBrof3fAUL0jdSqCn0BVilfhEzgAJBWmg References: <0F8A0391-212D-4485-A470-652505BFBC2D@softarmor.com> From: "Rai, Anupam \(Anupam\)" To: "Dean Willis" , "SIP IETF" X-Scanner: InterScan AntiVirus for Sendmail X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c Cc: X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org As of now TLS is the only mechanism available for authentication using certificate.=20 It would be nice to have a solution where certificate can be utilized for authentication with authentication service more than one hop away from UA. -Anupam -----Original Message----- From: Dean Willis [mailto:dean.willis@softarmor.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 2:19 PM To: SIP IETF Subject: [Sip] Interest check: draft on certificate-based authentication The relatively new draft: http://tools.ietf.org/wg/sip/draft-dotson-sip-certificate-auth- sol-00.txt attempts to resolve the requirements raised in: http://tools.ietf.org/wg/sip/draft-dotson-sip-certificate-auth-02.txt As solutions drafts go, this one is substantially incomplete (for =20 example, the Security section is basically nonexistent). But I think =20 the general approach being taken looks reasonable, and that the =20 problem being solved is a real problem that needs to be solved. The =20 very real issues with digest authentication are pretty well =20 understood, and this sort of technique looks like it will provide a =20 very useful alternative. So I'd like to ask the group to take a look at these drafts and start =20 thinking about what we, as a working group, need to do in this area. =20 We're perhaps not ready to take on new work at this time, but I =20 expect we will be before too much longer. Is this a problem we should =20 be addressing? -- Dean Willis co-chair _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 22 04:39:08 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKAOR-00050y-Gc; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 04:37:39 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKAOP-00050W-U9 for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 04:37:38 -0500 Received: from lizzard.sbs.de ([194.138.37.39]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKAOO-0004bl-DW for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 04:37:37 -0500 Received: from mail2.sbs.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lizzard.sbs.de (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l1M9bW4f026250; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 10:37:35 +0100 Received: from fthw9xpa.ww002.siemens.net (fthw9xpa.ww002.siemens.net [157.163.133.222]) by mail2.sbs.de (8.12.6/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l1M9bVbg002003; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 10:37:32 +0100 Received: from MCHP7IEA.ww002.siemens.net ([139.25.131.145]) by fthw9xpa.ww002.siemens.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 22 Feb 2007 10:37:31 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Sip] Interest check: draft on certificate-based authentication Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 10:37:30 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0F8A0391-212D-4485-A470-652505BFBC2D@softarmor.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Sip] Interest check: draft on certificate-based authentication Thread-Index: AcdWBrmckLKXxznnRdCEz6dzrVslRAAXahtg References: <0F8A0391-212D-4485-A470-652505BFBC2D@softarmor.com> From: "Fries, Steffen" To: "Dean Willis" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Feb 2007 09:37:31.0688 (UTC) FILETIME=[132EFA80:01C75665] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f607d15ccc2bc4eaf3ade8ffa8af02a0 Cc: IETF SIP List X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Hi, the draft addresses certificate based authentication over multiple hops, were certificate based authentication in TLS does not help. As this may not only be a problem in SIP scenarios, it would be beneficial to have such an authentication enhancement within HTTP instead of SIP. As HTTP digest authentication is currently used in SIP, an enhanced HTTP authentication utilizing certificates may be used in SIP as well. So from my point of view the draft sounds interesting, but may have a broader scope by incorporating it into HTTP directly. The draft already raises this question in the discussion section. Ciao Steffen > -----Original Message----- > From: Dean Willis [mailto:dean.willis@softarmor.com]=20 > Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 11:19 PM > To: SIP IETF > Subject: [Sip] Interest check: draft on certificate-based=20 > authentication >=20 >=20 > The relatively new draft: >=20 > http://tools.ietf.org/wg/sip/draft-dotson-sip-certificate-auth- > sol-00.txt >=20 >=20 > attempts to resolve the requirements raised in: >=20 > http://tools.ietf.org/wg/sip/draft-dotson-sip-certificate-auth-02.txt >=20 >=20 > As solutions drafts go, this one is substantially incomplete (for =20 > example, the Security section is basically nonexistent). But I think =20 > the general approach being taken looks reasonable, and that the =20 > problem being solved is a real problem that needs to be solved. The =20 > very real issues with digest authentication are pretty well =20 > understood, and this sort of technique looks like it will provide a =20 > very useful alternative. >=20 > So I'd like to ask the group to take a look at these drafts=20 > and start =20 > thinking about what we, as a working group, need to do in this area. =20 > We're perhaps not ready to take on new work at this time, but I =20 > expect we will be before too much longer. Is this a problem=20 > we should =20 > be addressing? >=20 > -- > Dean Willis > co-chair >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip >=20 _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 22 10:39:34 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKG1k-0007oL-AF; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 10:38:36 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKG1i-0007m9-Oo for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 10:38:34 -0500 Received: from mx11.bbn.com ([128.33.0.80]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKG1f-0004OJ-DT for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 10:38:34 -0500 Received: from dommiel.bbn.com ([192.1.122.15] helo=[127.0.0.1]) by mx11.bbn.com with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1HKG1a-0003Oj-5m; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 10:38:26 -0500 Message-ID: <45DDB8F2.3090103@bbn.com> Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 10:38:26 -0500 From: Matt Lepinski Organization: BBN User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dean Willis Subject: Re: [Sip] Interest check: draft on certificate-based authentication References: <0F8A0391-212D-4485-A470-652505BFBC2D@softarmor.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 14582b0692e7f70ce7111d04db3781c8 Cc: IETF SIP List , steffen.fries@siemens.com X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org I agree that the approach taken in the document is reasonable and that certificate-based authentication over multiple hops is a problem that SIP should solve. However, I disagree with Steffen's suggestion that the work be incorporated into HTTP directly. I believe the need for certificate-based authentication over multiple hops is a more pressing issue for SIP than for HTTP. Therefore, I think we will arrive at a good solution sooner if we solve the problem in this working group than if first try to solve it first for HTTP and then map the HTTP solution back to SIP. (By contrast, in the case of digest authentication, a reasonable mechanism already existed within HTTP and therefore it made sense to adapt the existing solution to SIP.) If we produce a good multi-hop, certificate-based authentication mechanism for SIP and someone believes that it is also useful for HTTP, then there's nothing to prevent the SIP solution from later being adapted to work with HTTP. - Matt Lepinski :-> Fries, Steffen wrote: >Hi, > >the draft addresses certificate based authentication over multiple hops, >were certificate based authentication in TLS does not help. As this may >not only be a problem in SIP scenarios, it would be beneficial to have >such an authentication enhancement within HTTP instead of SIP. As HTTP >digest authentication is currently used in SIP, an enhanced HTTP >authentication utilizing certificates may be used in SIP as well. So >from my point of view the draft sounds interesting, but may have a >broader scope by incorporating it into HTTP directly. The draft already >raises this question in the discussion section. > >Ciao > Steffen > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Dean Willis [mailto:dean.willis@softarmor.com] >>Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 11:19 PM >>To: SIP IETF >>Subject: [Sip] Interest check: draft on certificate-based >>authentication >> >> >>The relatively new draft: >> >>http://tools.ietf.org/wg/sip/draft-dotson-sip-certificate-auth- >>sol-00.txt >> >> >>attempts to resolve the requirements raised in: >> >>http://tools.ietf.org/wg/sip/draft-dotson-sip-certificate-auth-02.txt >> >> >>As solutions drafts go, this one is substantially incomplete (for >>example, the Security section is basically nonexistent). But I think >>the general approach being taken looks reasonable, and that the >>problem being solved is a real problem that needs to be solved. The >>very real issues with digest authentication are pretty well >>understood, and this sort of technique looks like it will provide a >>very useful alternative. >> >>So I'd like to ask the group to take a look at these drafts >>and start >>thinking about what we, as a working group, need to do in this area. >>We're perhaps not ready to take on new work at this time, but I >>expect we will be before too much longer. Is this a problem >>we should >>be addressing? >> >>-- >>Dean Willis >>co-chair >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip >>This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol >>Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip >>Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip >> >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip >This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol >Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip >Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip > > > _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 22 12:06:12 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKHNI-0002ym-JK; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 12:04:56 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKHNH-0002ye-C6 for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 12:04:55 -0500 Received: from mout.perfora.net ([217.160.230.40]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKHNF-0001Iv-VJ for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 12:04:55 -0500 Received: from [172.23.126.14] (helo=ntxsmtpus.exchange.xchg) by mrelay.perfora.net (node=mrelayus1) with ESMTP (Nemesis), id 0MKp2t-1HKHND2jY6-0000ZD; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 12:04:51 -0500 Received: from ntxbeus08.exchange.xchg ([172.23.126.10]) by ntxsmtpus.exchange.xchg with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 22 Feb 2007 12:04:39 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 12:04:37 -0500 Message-ID: <47CF746379847149979F732F068200A0014CFB2B@ntxbeus08.exchange.xchg> In-Reply-To: <44B09A57-B37C-4B64-8EEA-8E6ADA5699E1@softarmor.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) thread-index: AcdRXveswvV9yvb8Sf2QpmAPT647vgFRFuDA References: <7374777208BDC7449D5620EF94232567014B6FAF@esealmw113.eemea.ericsson.se> <44B09A57-B37C-4B64-8EEA-8E6ADA5699E1@softarmor.com> From: "William Mandra" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 22 Feb 2007 17:04:39.0113 (UTC) FILETIME=[89932B90:01C756A3] X-Provags-ID2: V01U2FsdGVkX18ER7A0Y7qy02rmgYHEYOjQHZLRE6k3KklgMiUAENI3AIW47kRHMhF0WnMyAeDKeCO8bQTEY+dwMPAApUJD/I8I+blyy354oqI= X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 6ba8aaf827dcb437101951262f69b3de X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org For what it's worth, I think that in the context of the Outbound draft UDP should depreciated moving forward. A connection oriented protocol is clearly the best choice for handling situations like NAT, and removing the requirement for UDP in outbound would allow for a much simpler keepalive mechanism. UDP will most likely not go away anytime soon for a large portion of SIP implementations, and that's fine. In the context of SIP/3.0 UDP should definitely continue to be supported. One of the greatest strengths of SIP IS the fact that the implementation is transport independent. Besides, does anyone on this list really think that obsoleting UDP in v3 will have any effect on the actual number of UDP only implementations?? The choice should be left to the designers of individual implementations as to which transport(s) to support/not support. I feel that it's more important in v3 to keep the specification as open as possible and let the market decide which transport(s) best suit their need, then in outbound draw a line and drop support for UDP. 1) Do you believe that UDP transport of large messages will aggravate the congestion impact of SIP on the Internet (I personally do, just so you know my bias). Yes. 2) Will UDP fade away from SIP relatively soon? No. 3) If UDP will fade away, do we need to burden TCP-only implementations with a more complex keepalive protocol designed originally for UDP? Even though UDP most likely won't fade away from SIP anytime soon doesn't mean that UDP must be supported in the context of outbound. 4) If UDP will fade away, do we need to account for UDP at all in outbound? Same answer as #3 really... even though UDP won't fade away from SIP for some time we should only use connection oriented transports for outbound. 5) If UDP will NOT fade away relatively soon, and TCP will not scale relatively soon, then do you believe that we need a transition mechanism so that we can register and keepalive using UDP, then bring up short-lived TCP connections for large messages as Marc's draft proposes? Nope... remove UDP from outbound all together, and while we're at it remove the requirement for STUN with TCP and use either TCP keepalives, CRLFs, or even whitespace for keep-alive. 6) If you agree with #1 but think UDP will not fade away and don't see the need for #5, then I either want to know what sort of alternative you envision, because we're going to need one. Same as #5, connection based transports using either TCP keepalives, CRLFs, or whitespace. William Mandra M-Networks > -----Original Message----- > From: Dean Willis [mailto:dean.willis@softarmor.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 7:08 PM > To: Christer Holmberg ((JO/LMF)) > Cc: Cullen Jennings; SIP; Juha Heinanen; Rohan Mahy > Subject: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) >=20 >=20 > On Jan 8, 2007, at 6:22 AM, Christer Holmberg ((JO/LMF)) wrote: >=20 > >> > >> the mailing list needs to be the authority that determines > >> consensus, not the meeting that is attended only by those who > >> can afford it. > > > > Well, then we don't need any hums in the future, do we? :) >=20 > Of course we do. I find them very amusing and occasionally informative. >=20 > > Seriously, I do agree, but I (and I am sure others too) have received > > comments saying that "there was a concensus in this-or-that IETF > > meeting", without the issue really even being discussed on the > mailing > > list. In some cases things have been discussed on the list, and have > > even got some support, but then being turned down at the meeting. > > > > So, does that mean that all decissions made at meetings should be > > agreed > > also on the list after that? >=20 >=20 > That's why we report it as "a consensus in the meeting" rather than > "a consensus". My default assumption is that strong consensus in a > meeting is likely to represent rough list consensus. When there is > doubt (raised by a participant, or on a hunch of a Chair), we need to > ask the list. >=20 > That's why I polled. And I'm still digesting the results of that > poll. I feel something like an anaconda that accidentally ate a full- > grown water buffalo instead of a small pig -- that is, it's hard to > digest the results, and I'm not sure what to do about the horns. >=20 > My personal belief is that this keepalive question is comingled with > the UDP and large packet issue. If we fix the congestion-explosion > problem of SIP large messages (it's not a reliability thing, it is a > Breaks The Internet thing) by effectively deprecating UDP, then we > don't really need most of STUN. If that's the direction, or might > become the direction, then we probably shouldn't require STUN for > TCP. But if we're going to keep a dual-protocol model forever (as > Marc has argued for extending to where we can use UDP to kick-start > TCP), then we might as well use STUN in both cases. >=20 > Some people (Frank? Juha? Me??) clearly believe that outbound is > where we can draw the dividing line between a dual-protocol past and > a TCP future. >=20 > Some (Cullen? Sean?) believe that we can't draw a dividing line using > Outbound, but that we'll eventually cross that line. >=20 > Others (Marc) believe we cannot even approach such a transition at > this time and that we need to heavily revise outbound to account for > the perceived limitations of both TCP and UDP. >=20 > So, what do you people believe? >=20 > 1) Do you believe that UDP transport of large messages will aggravate > the congestion impact of SIP on the Internet (I personally do, just > so you know my bias). >=20 > 2) Will UDP fade away from SIP relatively soon? >=20 > 3) If UDP will fade away, do we need to burden TCP-only > implementations with a more complex keepalive protocol designed > originally for UDP? >=20 > 4) If UDP will fade away, do we need to account for UDP at all in > outbound? >=20 > 5) If UDP will NOT fade away relatively soon, and TCP will not scale > relatively soon, then do you believe that we need a transition > mechanism so that we can register and keepalive using UDP, then bring > up short-lived TCP connections for large messages as Marc's draft > proposes? >=20 > 6) If you agree with #1 but think UDP will not fade away and don't > see the need for #5, then I either want to know what sort of > alternative you envision, because we're going to need one. >=20 > -- > Dean >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 22 13:13:21 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKIPo-0004ej-Ps; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 13:11:36 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKIPn-0004ed-OG for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 13:11:35 -0500 Received: from hide.pingtel.com ([65.220.123.2] helo=mail.pingtel.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKIPm-0003da-QO for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 13:11:35 -0500 Received: from saffron.pingtel.com (saffron.pingtel.com [10.1.1.67]) by mail.pingtel.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A93206C01D; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 13:11:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) From: Scott Lawrence To: William Mandra In-Reply-To: <47CF746379847149979F732F068200A0014CFB2B@ntxbeus08.exchange.xchg> References: <7374777208BDC7449D5620EF94232567014B6FAF@esealmw113.eemea.ericsson.se> <44B09A57-B37C-4B64-8EEA-8E6ADA5699E1@softarmor.com> <47CF746379847149979F732F068200A0014CFB2B@ntxbeus08.exchange.xchg> Content-Type: text/plain Organization: Pingtel Corp. Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 13:11:26 -0500 Message-Id: <1172167887.2694.46.camel@saffron.pingtel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.6.3 (2.6.3-1.fc5.5) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 848ed35f2a4fc0638fa89629cb640f48 Cc: sip@ietf.org X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org I think that William has done an excellent job of summarizing the reality of the situation and what we should do about it. +1 On Thu, 2007-02-22 at 12:04 -0500, William Mandra wrote: > For what it's worth, I think that in the context of the Outbound draft > UDP should depreciated moving forward. A connection oriented protocol is > clearly the best choice for handling situations like NAT, and removing > the requirement for UDP in outbound would allow for a much simpler > keepalive mechanism. UDP will most likely not go away anytime soon for a > large portion of SIP implementations, and that's fine. In the context of > SIP/3.0 UDP should definitely continue to be supported. One of the > greatest strengths of SIP IS the fact that the implementation is > transport independent. Besides, does anyone on this list really think > that obsoleting UDP in v3 will have any effect on the actual number of > UDP only implementations?? The choice should be left to the designers of > individual implementations as to which transport(s) to support/not > support. I feel that it's more important in v3 to keep the specification > as open as possible and let the market decide which transport(s) best > suit their need, then in outbound draw a line and drop support for UDP. > 1) Do you believe that UDP transport of large messages will aggravate > the congestion impact of SIP on the Internet (I personally do, just so > you know my bias). > > Yes. > > 2) Will UDP fade away from SIP relatively soon? > > No. > > 3) If UDP will fade away, do we need to burden TCP-only implementations > with a more complex keepalive protocol designed originally for UDP? > > Even though UDP most likely won't fade away from SIP anytime soon > doesn't mean that UDP must be supported in the context of outbound. > > 4) If UDP will fade away, do we need to account for UDP at all in > outbound? > > Same answer as #3 really... even though UDP won't fade away from SIP for > some time we should only use connection oriented transports for > outbound. > > 5) If UDP will NOT fade away relatively soon, and TCP will not scale > relatively soon, then do you believe that we need a transition mechanism > so that we can register and keepalive using UDP, then bring up > short-lived TCP connections for large messages as Marc's draft proposes? > > Nope... remove UDP from outbound all together, and while we're at it > remove the requirement for STUN with TCP and use either TCP keepalives, > CRLFs, or even whitespace for keep-alive. > > 6) If you agree with #1 but think UDP will not fade away and don't see > the need for #5, then I either want to know what sort of alternative you > envision, because we're going to need one. > > Same as #5, connection based transports using either TCP keepalives, > CRLFs, or whitespace. > > > William Mandra > M-Networks > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dean Willis [mailto:dean.willis@softarmor.com] > > Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 7:08 PM > > To: Christer Holmberg ((JO/LMF)) > > Cc: Cullen Jennings; SIP; Juha Heinanen; Rohan Mahy > > Subject: [Sip] Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) > > > > > > On Jan 8, 2007, at 6:22 AM, Christer Holmberg ((JO/LMF)) wrote: > > > > >> > > >> the mailing list needs to be the authority that determines > > >> consensus, not the meeting that is attended only by those who > > >> can afford it. > > > > > > Well, then we don't need any hums in the future, do we? :) > > > > Of course we do. I find them very amusing and occasionally > informative. > > > > > Seriously, I do agree, but I (and I am sure others too) have > received > > > comments saying that "there was a concensus in this-or-that IETF > > > meeting", without the issue really even being discussed on the > > mailing > > > list. In some cases things have been discussed on the list, and have > > > even got some support, but then being turned down at the meeting. > > > > > > So, does that mean that all decissions made at meetings should be > > > agreed > > > also on the list after that? > > > > > > That's why we report it as "a consensus in the meeting" rather than > > "a consensus". My default assumption is that strong consensus in a > > meeting is likely to represent rough list consensus. When there is > > doubt (raised by a participant, or on a hunch of a Chair), we need to > > ask the list. > > > > That's why I polled. And I'm still digesting the results of that > > poll. I feel something like an anaconda that accidentally ate a full- > > grown water buffalo instead of a small pig -- that is, it's hard to > > digest the results, and I'm not sure what to do about the horns. > > > > My personal belief is that this keepalive question is comingled with > > the UDP and large packet issue. If we fix the congestion-explosion > > problem of SIP large messages (it's not a reliability thing, it is a > > Breaks The Internet thing) by effectively deprecating UDP, then we > > don't really need most of STUN. If that's the direction, or might > > become the direction, then we probably shouldn't require STUN for > > TCP. But if we're going to keep a dual-protocol model forever (as > > Marc has argued for extending to where we can use UDP to kick-start > > TCP), then we might as well use STUN in both cases. > > > > Some people (Frank? Juha? Me??) clearly believe that outbound is > > where we can draw the dividing line between a dual-protocol past and > > a TCP future. > > > > Some (Cullen? Sean?) believe that we can't draw a dividing line using > > Outbound, but that we'll eventually cross that line. > > > > Others (Marc) believe we cannot even approach such a transition at > > this time and that we need to heavily revise outbound to account for > > the perceived limitations of both TCP and UDP. > > > > So, what do you people believe? > > > > 1) Do you believe that UDP transport of large messages will aggravate > > the congestion impact of SIP on the Internet (I personally do, just > > so you know my bias). > > > > 2) Will UDP fade away from SIP relatively soon? > > > > 3) If UDP will fade away, do we need to burden TCP-only > > implementations with a more complex keepalive protocol designed > > originally for UDP? > > > > 4) If UDP will fade away, do we need to account for UDP at all in > > outbound? > > > > 5) If UDP will NOT fade away relatively soon, and TCP will not scale > > relatively soon, then do you believe that we need a transition > > mechanism so that we can register and keepalive using UDP, then bring > > up short-lived TCP connections for large messages as Marc's draft > > proposes? > > > > 6) If you agree with #1 but think UDP will not fade away and don't > > see the need for #5, then I either want to know what sort of > > alternative you envision, because we're going to need one. > > > > -- > > Dean > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip > > _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From augustinebeatrix@tscprinters.com Thu Feb 22 13:23:28 2007 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKIbI-0000Hd-PG for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 13:23:28 -0500 Received: from 89-138-217-151.bb.netvision.net.il ([89.138.217.151] helo=ch) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKIbD-0008DF-Lt for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 13:23:28 -0500 To: "aluino izaak" Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 20:23:10 +0200 From: "kennedy arte" Sender: "kennedy arte" Subject: Windows OEM question??? 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Office 2007 is available for enterprise users from November 30, 2006. The end user version is available from the beginning of 2007. The 2007 Microsoft Office System, also known as Microsoft Office 2007, is the most recent version of Microsoft's productivity suite. Formerly known as Office 12 in the initial stages of its beta cycle, it was scheduled to be made available to volume license customers on November 30, 2006, with general availability following in early 2007. Office 2007 contains a number of new features, the most notable of which is the entirely new graphical user interface called the Ribbon, replacing the menus and toolbars that have been the cornerstone of Office since its inception. Office 2007 also includes new applications and server-side tools. Chief amongst these is Groove, a collaboration and communication suite for smaller businesses which was originally developed by Groove Networks before being acquired by Microsoft in 2005. Also included is Office Sharepoint Server 2007, a major revision to the server platform for Office applications, which supports "Excel Services", a client-server architecture for supporting Excel workbooks that are shared in real time between multiple machines, and are also viewable and editable through a web page. While Office 2007 includes many new features, one has been removed entirely: Microsoft FrontPage is no longer being developed; its successor is the Microsoft Expression line of products.
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http://blogs.imagebucket.net/schoolchemistryp/
Please note, that there will be more special offers available for our constant customers. Every effort has been made to ensure the accuracy of all information contained herein. DS Team makes no warranty expressed or implied with respect to accuracy of the information, including price, product editorials or product specifications. Product and manufacturer names are used only for the purpose of identification. We appreciate your cooperation with us and we'll be glad to see you as our clients in the future.
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C756BF.440A81B0-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 22 14:39:00 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKJkg-0000v6-7b; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 14:37:14 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKJkf-0000v0-CY for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 14:37:13 -0500 Received: from be.bbsconnect.ca ([207.229.55.81] helo=smtp.bbsconnect.ca) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKJke-0000k7-2r for sip@ietf.org; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 14:37:13 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 12:37:03 -0700 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: app interaction framework extensions?? Thread-Index: AcdWuNPj+udW04gcRIGk19YOaV+24w== From: "Peter Musgrave" To: X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a1852b4f554b02e7e4548cc7928acc1f Subject: [Sip] app interaction framework extensions?? X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1215573422==" Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1215573422== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C756B8.AAF4BCF8" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C756B8.AAF4BCF8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've been looking through draft-ietf-sipping-app-interaction-framework-05 =20 Has there been any discussion of application interaction for clients which do not want to accept an HTTP URI? =20 I am thinking of light-weight clients who might wish to visually display information associated with a service (voicemail menu options etc.) but still send choices as DTMF from the keypad in the conventional way. Something along the lines of a SUBSCRIBE and get NOTIFYs from the server with text to display while negotiating an IVR. =20 Thx =20 Peter Musgrave ------_=_NextPart_001_01C756B8.AAF4BCF8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I’ve been looking through draft-ietf-sipping-app-interaction-framework-05<= /p>

 

Has there been any discussion of application = interaction for clients which do not want to accept an HTTP = URI?

 

I am thinking of light-weight clients who might wish = to visually display information associated with a service (voicemail menu = options etc.) but still send choices as DTMF from the keypad in the conventional = way. Something along the lines of a SUBSCRIBE and get NOTIFYs from the server with text = to display while negotiating an IVR.

 

Thx

 

Peter Musgrave

------_=_NextPart_001_01C756B8.AAF4BCF8-- --===============1215573422== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --===============1215573422==-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 23 00:54:16 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKTLp-0003MM-Pe; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 00:52:13 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKTLn-0003LT-TK for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 00:52:11 -0500 Received: from py-out-1112.google.com ([64.233.166.176]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKTLm-000779-C1 for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 00:52:11 -0500 Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id f47so206129pye for ; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 21:52:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type; b=EP9HnRaFGpGMTuVZS5dMh5Jv5fXT3lZl8hO+yjKSU97pgge1TbkVE7g3RwimvmUet5WNIhvzdFUgPAAF+8SXJaaAxPveyzpcXEBG6i9RC1rLJqYdxiW5szuEcOJs+PEUI532MWLcb8gSWBwhw+NYJYlU+oaAgsAp26uPE21EgQU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type; b=KueBaAu0SL+udsK5WS3mYq86jOspgRKIkUHZXEce6YdQXIQM4+eSb/qK1G5dOpERfL+BUwD/m3VMNZGuY8u9KtxROf6+89FX4abp24xLoUXQcoa3JdFBNonIOzb4pI8r0ig4jQ0r30PIiZqwrJW8kMxXWoKDxrP70FLhceZVG10= Received: by 10.35.111.14 with SMTP id o14mr3219188pym.1172209927819; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 21:52:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?192.168.1.4? ( [61.246.5.53]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id p77sm273158pyb.2007.02.22.21.52.05; Thu, 22 Feb 2007 21:52:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <45DE80FB.3030507@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 11:21:55 +0530 From: Prithvi User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: sip@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: X-Spam-Score: 1.9 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca Subject: [Sip] Simple SIP UA source code X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1387812751==" Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1387812751== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------020109000404020803010703" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020109000404020803010703 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all Can any one tell me the where i can get simple SIP UA through which can make simple voice call. INVITE ---> <----200 OK ACK -----> voice media BYE----> <-----200OK regards Prithvi --------------020109000404020803010703 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all
    Can any one tell me the where i can get simple SIP UA through which can make simple voice call.

INVITE --->
<----200 OK
ACK  ----->
voice media

BYE---->
<-----200OK

regards
Prithvi


--------------020109000404020803010703-- --===============1387812751== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --===============1387812751==-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 23 02:00:22 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKUO6-00048K-5V; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 01:58:38 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKUO4-000485-R7 for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 01:58:36 -0500 Received: from wip-ec-wd.wipro.com ([203.91.193.32]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKUO1-0003w5-MI for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 01:58:36 -0500 Received: from wip-ec-wd.wipro.com (localhost.wipro.com [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD882208C8 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 11:50:46 +0530 (IST) Received: from blr-ec-bh02.wipro.com (blr-ec-bh02.wipro.com [10.201.50.92]) by wip-ec-wd.wipro.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8132A20813 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 11:48:50 +0530 (IST) Received: from HYD-MDP-MBX01.wipro.com ([10.150.50.182]) by blr-ec-bh02.wipro.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 23 Feb 2007 12:25:53 +0530 Received: from HYD-MKD-MBX01.wipro.com ([10.154.50.181]) by HYD-MDP-MBX01.wipro.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 23 Feb 2007 12:25:52 +0530 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Sip] Simple SIP UA source code Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 12:25:37 +0530 Message-ID: <94350539FC77154CBBF37A9B9284133D0231EA13@HYD-MKD-MBX01.wipro.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Sip] Simple SIP UA source code Thread-Index: AcdXD1I3cd6K62adTSOZBwX7edfrZAACVOoA From: To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Feb 2007 06:55:53.0003 (UTC) FILETIME=[A8BAD7B0:01C75717] X-Spam-Score: 0.4 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a492040269d440726bfd84680622cee7 Cc: sip@ietf.org X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0902468238==" Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============0902468238== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75717.9F99E7F4" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75717.9F99E7F4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You may use this. http://www.pjsip.org/download.htm =20 =20 Regards Kamal ________________________________ From: Prithvi [mailto:prithvi.nit@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 11:22 AM Cc: sip@ietf.org Subject: [Sip] Simple SIP UA source code =20 Hi all Can any one tell me the where i can get simple SIP UA through which can make simple voice call. INVITE ---> <----200 OK ACK -----> voice media BYE----> <-----200OK regards Prithvi ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75717.9F99E7F4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

You may = use this.

http://www.pjsip.org/download.= htm

 

 

Regards

Kamal

From: Prithvi [mailto:prithvi.nit@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February = 23, 2007 11:22 AM
Cc: sip@ietf.org
Subject: [Sip] Simple SIP = UA source code

 

Hi = all
    Can any one tell me the where i can get simple SIP UA through which can make simple voice call.

INVITE --->
<----200 OK
ACK  ----->
voice media

BYE---->
<-----200OK

regards
Prithvi

------_=_NextPart_001_01C75717.9F99E7F4-- --===============0902468238== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --===============0902468238==-- From ginkevayimy@rdsnet.ro Fri Feb 23 02:06:58 2007 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKUWA-0002pI-9D; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 02:06:58 -0500 Received: from [86.126.185.104] (helo=rdsnet.ro) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKUW5-0005Y1-QO; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 02:06:58 -0500 Message-ID: From: "Jaymie Boyd" To: "Marylyn" Cc: "Lorrine Wright" , "Sylvia" , "Robin" , "Francisco" , "Devona" , "Livia" , "Christie Simpson" , "September Peters" , "Mack" Subject: Can U Believe It Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 19:39:19 -1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_E03_13B4_E437069F.12C5C05F" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1158 X-Spam-Score: 0.8 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 85e99493ec37f9acef29c7843dbf2e68 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_E03_13B4_E437069F.12C5C05F Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_FCD_A305_5547BC43.325E8AAE" ------=_NextPart_FCD_A305_5547BC43.325E8AAE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable led "A girl parturient daughter book of six or seven--that is, a little y= ounger elegant "Well," said Franz shore volucrine to Albert, "do you ver= se know what is blink "But these two Corsican quick fake bandits?" fade= said Franz, calc"Ah, authority the devil, obnoxiously no," about cried m= iddle Albert; "I came to Rome cytherean chop An parcel overhanging rock carelessly offered him a tempor= ary shelte "See, sir," replied Caderousse, bright "in sand shyly whip= this corner is "'Tis fry well," said the abb, flame convinced metal fou= nd by his manne As gladly he stink rose, a flash drain pull of lightning, that seemed to = r station suggest "One day the real quick young shepherd told the count's s= tewa"Bravo! pontal an excellent like idea. We house rest will disguise ou= rsel"It is not their decorate stomach fallen fault said that they are ban= dits, butturn "Do your excellencies rain spell good still wish for a carr= iage fr learn The men he poor beheld wire buy saw him undoubtedly, for their c = grubby "What? That he has given milk the diamond family request to us on= ly?" helpful "To polish get your secret bread without seat paying for it= , you blo   Dants ran down bear the rocks at the risk nose arrest school of being him= "One understood bleed tame evening a wolf emerged punch from a pine-wood = heartiny "Parbleu!" said chosen Albert, "do you think greasy film we are = going"How so?""I hasten dive to ripe amount comply with form your excelle= ncies' wishes Dants bat stood mute dull and make forbade motionless before this majes = hung win Caderousse remained smitten for a nut moment aghast under the = "In what way?" 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"I know very bred = well that d forsook The Englishman work fall seemed hat to appreciate th= is extreme d "I am caught inquisitive showed saved!" murmured cost he. And this convic= tion res "'Well,' said straight fire morning Cucumetto, 'have you weight executed = your chang jelly "And now we prevent basket understand each other."jewel = except sleep "Well," said the thought young man, "let us demand hospitabu= rn sneeze mend "When do you wish the inform carriage to be here?" song He often soon saw beautiful that the confused vessel, with the wind = dead ah "But," said hearing pin the Englishman, "this judge arm looks ve= ry much "It looks more pled like correctly look bankruptcy!" exclaimed = wine M. de B   It was clearly then he rejoiced at embarrassed his plough consist precaut= ion in takin"In an hour." ------=_NextPart_FCD_A305_5547BC43.325E8AAE Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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led "A girl parturient daughter book of six or seven--that is, a = little younger  elegant "Well," said Franz shore volucrine to A= lbert, "do you verse know what is   blink "But these two C= orsican quick fake bandits?" fade said Franz, calc"Ah, authority the devi= l, obnoxiously no," about cried middle Albert; "I came to Rome  = ;   
cytherean chop An parcel overhanging rock carelessly offered him a tempor= ary shelte     "See, sir," replied Caderousse, b= right "in sand shyly whip this corner is  "'Tis fry well," said= the abb, flame convinced metal found by his manne    As gladly he stink rose, a flash drain pull of lightning, that seemed to = r 

station suggest "One day the real quick young shepherd told the count= 's stewa"Bravo! pontal an excellent like idea. We house rest will disguis= e oursel"It is not their decorate stomach fallen fault said that they are= bandits, butturn "Do your excellencies rain spell good still wish for a = carriage fr    
learn The men he poor beheld wire buy saw him undoubtedly, for their c&nb= sp;   grubby "What? That he has given milk the diamond fam= ily request to us only?"  helpful "To polish get your secret br= ead without seat paying for it, you blo    
Dants ran down bear the rocks at the risk nose arrest school of being him=     
"One understood bleed tame evening a wolf emerged punch from a pine-wood = heartiny "Parbleu!" said chosen Albert, "do you think greasy film we are = going"How so?""I hasten dive to ripe amount comply with form your excelle= ncies' wishes        
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evil "The dust wrestle celebrated Cucumetto, plate pursued in the Abr= uzzo,"And, as bury glorious I am silver not scrub a millionaire, like the= gentlemawrestle "What do you rot mean puzzled by air having made a stiff= ?--having"But, excellency"--said pretend agreement shy scary Pastrini, st= ill striving t   As flame Dants concerned (his eyes turned in the fry meet direction of th= e    crept "Why, the fair is handle on at Beaucaire, = interfere ancient there are alway THE DAY AFTER that brainy alert in= which made the scene account we have just 
"It tray burst so happened that busily night that lost Cucumetto had sent= "Now cheese go," returned Franz, seriously "or I quality shall measure go= myself an"I mean that they payment have killed an enemy, learn gold sens= e which is a"Do smell not enthusiastic middle give size yourselves the tr= ouble, excellency,"         =
As grubby know he spoke, Dants looked satisfy needle toward the spot wher= e t"Sir," lavatorial replied the suit veracious mayor. "I know very bred = well that d  forsook The Englishman work fall seemed hat to app= reciate this extreme d     
"I am caught inquisitive showed saved!" murmured cost he. And this convic= tion res   
"'Well,' said straight fire morning Cucumetto, 'have you weight execu= ted your chang jelly "And now we prevent basket understand each other."je= wel except sleep "Well," said the thought young man, "let us demand hospi= taburn sneeze mend "When do you wish the inform carriage to be here?"&nbs= p; 
song He often soon saw beautiful that the confused vessel, with the wind = dead ah  "But," said hearing pin the Englishman, "this judge ar= m looks very much   "It looks more pled like correctly loo= k bankruptcy!" exclaimed wine M. de B      =     
It was clearly then he rejoiced at embarrassed his plough consist precaut= ion in takin"In an hour."          
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sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 03:34:06 -0500 Received: from (unknown [185.123.142.62]) by (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7313DC5845BD for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 09:30:32 +0100 Message-ID: <001001c75724$d8533780$00000000@GENERALE> From: "to" To: sip-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: is the Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 09:30:16 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C7572D.3A179F80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.1 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 8279e2b0006e70acac79ca9454596384 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C7572D.3A179F80 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C7572D.3A179F80" ------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C7572D.3A179F80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That you can watch right here on your, 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from unknown (HELO ?192.168.0.167?) (joegen@opensipstack.org@124.107.87.82) by ns-omr9.lb.hosting.dc2.netsol.com with SMTP; 23 Feb 2007 08:55:02 -0000 Message-ID: <45DEABCE.5050301@opensipstack.org> Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 16:54:38 +0800 From: "Joegen E. Baclor" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Prithvi Subject: Re: [Sip] Simple SIP UA source code References: <45DE80FB.3030507@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <45DE80FB.3030507@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Cc: sip@ietf.org X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org http://www.opensipstack.org has a softphone implementation Prithvi wrote: > Hi all > Can any one tell me the where i can get simple SIP UA through > which can make simple voice call. > > INVITE ---> > <----200 OK > ACK -----> > voice media > > BYE----> > <-----200OK > > regards > Prithvi > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From Red@otterpaws.com Fri Feb 23 07:50:51 2007 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKZsx-0006Ju-EO for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 07:50:51 -0500 Received: from 142net45.unica.it ([192.167.142.45]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKZso-0001h2-08 for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 07:50:51 -0500 Received: from (unknown [135.124.50.115]) by (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A29CFBB4A86 for ; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:43:16 +0100 Message-ID: <000c01c75748$19428480$00000000@accprelivi> From: "BLOODY" To: sip-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: came me added So Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:42:37 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C75750.7B06EC80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.5 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 233de1b21593fc0f4cdf285406dca0da ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C75750.7B06EC80 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C75750.7B06EC80" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C75750.7B06EC80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anthony could also joining, his wife. Llc any way associated inc home bloody. Partners worldwide earnings days = day million opening! Hogs, pgzodiac go forums! Choose month january november october. The sequel to pregnant. Comic, told us dont, think being. Told us, dont think. Dog ramazing grace, pgan rarthur invisibles. Their if everything, works out start! Sites events get showtimes amp tickets? Media lp all rights reserved = online llc. Ross tony bennett, gwen stefani world ltd global. Grace pgan = rarthur invisibles farmer pgavenue montaigne pgbecause, said. Appear = american idol movies trailers. Top stories more news! Think, being made moment. Newsletter hot list know around. March quick simple rocky mountain, fit challenge colorado. After nice do sounds, like have, their? Tony bennett gwen stefani world = ltd global related simon. Pilot greys anatomy spinoff wsj. Discuss boards latest headlines excl shh ghost. David koepp producer = grant curtis invincible. It was, reported earlier this year that robert rodriguez! Miami rrocky balboa rseraphim falls rsmokin aces rstomp. Christmas rblack snake, moan. ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C75750.7B06EC80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Anthony could also joining, his = wife.
Llc any=20 way associated inc home bloody. Partners worldwide earnings days day = million=20 opening! Hogs, pgzodiac go forums!
Choose month january november = october. The=20 sequel to pregnant.
Comic, told us dont, think being.
Told us, = dont think.=20 Dog ramazing grace, pgan rarthur invisibles.
Their if everything, = works out=20 start!
Sites events get showtimes amp tickets? Media lp all rights = reserved=20 online llc. Ross tony bennett, gwen stefani world ltd global. Grace pgan = rarthur=20 invisibles farmer pgavenue montaigne pgbecause, said. Appear american = idol=20 movies trailers.
Top stories more news!
Think, being made moment.=20 Newsletter hot list know around.
March quick simple rocky mountain, = fit=20 challenge colorado.
After nice do sounds, like have, their? Tony = bennett gwen=20 stefani world ltd global related simon. Pilot greys anatomy spinoff=20 wsj.
Discuss boards latest headlines excl shh ghost. David koepp = producer=20 grant curtis invincible.
It was, reported earlier this year that = robert=20 rodriguez!
Miami rrocky balboa rseraphim falls rsmokin aces=20 rstomp.
Christmas rblack snake, moan.
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5DxYxKpRr3oro5n/zOZDi0RNdBk8YBWbR74Qnk53U6scj4boPbxhL4oVYb/f8Q74Px5KroMfbB7z nse/9IFRX2Qj4wqT5zq4yY94qwsh74zoMslNiY7+U5gdf0isOppxcfOjoRZRt7by8a93M2qfvs6G NAoeEmKN+9zJ7rYySUrvcX10HhzjWEmlCfFz7tukBfGIRj0ucoRc7KMoHafAG+KwZy88mPVcacHs +TKFqnxI73jXwIstsJSsY1wTtQfMMnryjHOUmyCfpz+iuSt3a7RcAUVWt+FF8yJyW179IsYy6EVv lLY0pZQCAgA7 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C75750.7B06EC80-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 23 12:14:43 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKdy8-0002kN-DB; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 12:12:28 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKdy6-0002k8-KN; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 12:12:26 -0500 Received: from shaman.nostrum.com ([72.232.15.10] helo=nostrum.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKdy5-0006Va-AZ; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 12:12:26 -0500 Received: from [172.17.2.61] (vicuna-alt.estacado.net [75.53.54.121]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l1NHCJxJ061652 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 23 Feb 2007 11:12:19 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) Message-ID: <45DF2074.90909@nostrum.com> Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 11:12:20 -0600 From: Adam Roach User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Macintosh/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "'rohc@ietf.org'" References: <45477421.2080305@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <45477421.2080305@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Received-SPF: pass (nostrum.com: 75.53.54.121 is authenticated by a trusted mechanism) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f4c2cf0bccc868e4cc88dace71fb3f44 Cc: SIP WG , Keith Drage , Gonzalo Camarillo , Dean Willis Subject: [Sip] Comments: draft-ietf-rohc-sigcomp-sip-04 X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org The sigcomp-sip revisions look good. I have a couple of small comments on the new text that should be easy to resolve: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Section 8.3: > To indicate that such state will continue > to be available, the SigComp endpoint can inform its peer SigComp > endpoint by announcing the (partial) state ID in the returned SigComp > parameters at the end of the registration, dialog, or transaction > that was supposed to limit the lifetime of the SigComp state. I think this is left-over language from the time that dialogs and transactions could have associated compartments. I suggest: To indicate that such state will continue to be available, the SigComp endpoint can inform its peer SigComp endpoint by announcing the (partial) state ID in the returned SigComp parameters upon termination of the registration. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Nit; Section 8.4: > Section 9 provides network administrators with recommendations so that > they configure they networks properly. ...should be: Section 9 provides network administrators with recommendations so that they can configure their networks properly. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Aside from these two small corrections, I think the document is ready for publication. I still believe that it would be improved by the addition of an example SIP message (instead of mere excerpts), and I am re-including my suggestion from a previous review below. However, I think the document serves its purpose even without the example, and see no reason to hinder its progress simply because it lacks such an example. REGISTER sip:example.net SIP/2.0 Via: SIP/2.0/UDP 192.0.2.247:2078;branch=z9hG4bK-et736vsjirav; rport;sigcomp-id="urn:uuid:2e5fdc76-00be-4314-8202-1116fa82a473" From: "Joe User" ;tag=6to4gh7t5j To: "Bob User" Call-ID: 3c26700c1adb-lu1lz5ri5orr CSeq: 215196 REGISTER Max-Forwards: 70 Contact: ; q=1.0; expires=3600; +sip.instance="" Content-Length: 0 /a _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 23 13:23:47 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKf2e-0007Pe-41; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:21:12 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKf2c-0007LR-Tn for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:21:10 -0500 Received: from usremg01.bea.com ([66.248.192.21]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKf2b-0003y9-Hc for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:21:10 -0500 Received: from usremr01.bea.com (mailrelay.bea.com [10.160.29.91]) by usremg01.bea.com (Switch-3.2.2/Switch-3.2.2) with ESMTP id l1NIL70x018252 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 23 Feb 2007 10:21:07 -0800 Received: from repbex01.amer.bea.com (repbex01.bea.com [10.160.26.98]) by usremr01.bea.com (Switch-3.2.2/Switch-3.2.2) with ESMTP id l1NIL6aN019631; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 10:21:06 -0800 Received: from 172.24.29.139 ([172.24.29.139]) by repbex01.amer.bea.com ([10.160.26.98]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 18:21:05 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.3.3.061214 Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 11:26:01 -0500 Subject: Re: [Sip] app interaction framework extensions?? From: Eric Burger To: Peter Musgrave Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Sip] app interaction framework extensions?? Thread-Index: AcdWuNPj+udW04gcRIGk19YOaV+24wArnpkl In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-PMX-Version: 4.7.1.128075, Antispam-Engine: 2.5.0.283055, Antispam-Data: 2007.2.21.161433 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 Cc: sip@ietf.org X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org That would be the =B3remote user interface=B2 case described in the Framewo= rk document, embodied by KPML (RFC 4730). On 2/22/07 11:37 AM, "Peter Musgrave" wrote: > I=B9ve been looking through draft-ietf-sipping-app-interaction-framework-= 05 >=20=20 > Has there been any discussion of application interaction for clients whic= h do > not want to accept an HTTP URI? >=20=20 > I am thinking of light-weight clients who might wish to visually display > information associated with a service (voicemail menu options etc.) but s= till > send choices as DTMF from the keypad in the conventional way. Something a= long > the lines of a SUBSCRIBE and get NOTIFYs from the server with text to dis= play > while negotiating an IVR. >=20=20 > Thx >=20=20 > Peter Musgrave _______________________________________________________________________ Notice: This email message, together with any attachments, may contain information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries and affiliated entities, that may be confidential, proprietary, copyrighted and/or legally privileged, and is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity named in this message. If you are not the intended recipient, and have received this message in error, please immediately return this by email and then delete it. _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 23 13:57:34 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKfb1-0008Do-FN; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:56:43 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKfaz-0008DJ-2d for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:56:41 -0500 Received: from web50801.mail.yahoo.com ([206.190.38.110]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKfax-0001MV-Gb for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:56:41 -0500 Received: (qmail 90264 invoked by uid 60001); 23 Feb 2007 18:56:39 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-ID; b=mwOhPBf8j10HA3Miso6N3uCtvGJnk3AW0bZdIMgeOdljV/S7tQIWiR9x4d8BeDtTFhOOni3zkTozcO9u6oIvROXUkxcy20kLjrybBkntxvhRlq8HzVeRksbzdBBydK93mc3iXol5sQ/Ea7i8YOwyHtFpIL6nGwUDd1SMUbpGkHs=; X-YMail-OSG: 46twhM8VM1kQPUdq5rKSFK.Eh3s63fg0VJjrTbvqEy6uj8VEjjmPFj.Nsbx4.8qtZb6dqP7fLxSHea9H33oLzNr.u9ZgiK.NMM8SyOR9GtW.LXPKqCfu3h5fTzEUGuqMS5vWOqyN5.emeyj6dGT.s9ND Received: from [69.63.123.101] by web50801.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 10:56:39 PST Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 10:56:39 -0800 (PST) From: arun kumar To: sip@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <36096.88327.qm@web50801.mail.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Subject: [Sip] SIP source code. X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Hi All, Could some tell me where I can find source code for SIP that I can modify using VC++. I need it to perform the basic operations. Thanks in advance. - Arun. S ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 23 20:40:44 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKlqR-0000Fl-A7; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 20:37:03 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKlqP-00006D-Hc for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 20:37:01 -0500 Received: from sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com ([171.71.176.72] helo=sj-iport-3.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HKlqN-0002dP-V5 for sip@ietf.org; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 20:37:01 -0500 Received: from sj-dkim-6.cisco.com ([171.68.10.81]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 23 Feb 2007 17:37:00 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,213,1170662400"; d="scan'208"; a="466788489:sNHT53528644" Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com (sj-core-3.cisco.com [171.68.223.137]) by sj-dkim-6.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1O1ax3n000867; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 17:36:59 -0800 Received: from dwingwxp (sjc-vpn6-792.cisco.com [10.21.123.24]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l1O1aoho013570; Fri, 23 Feb 2007 17:36:54 -0800 (PST) From: "Dan Wing" To: "'Dean Willis'" Subject: RE: [Sip] Interest check: draft on certificate-based authentication Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 17:36:45 -0800 Message-ID: <010101c757b4$46478310$187b150a@amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <45DDB8F2.3090103@bbn.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 thread-index: AcdWl9ZfSVlub3E4RJaW4q+FsmZIywBG0TgQ DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=5476; t=1172281019; x=1173145019; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim6002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=dwing@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Dan=20Wing=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20[Sip]=20Interest=20check=3A=20draft=20on=20certificat e-based=20authentication |Sender:=20; bh=KceGOwrYhWY0+rYwBr0MmOT3nrKRbE/q/BUIRMxeOqE=; b=XDVLqLnlWMdmVfj4i7WnIlgLkw4r9fqu3pDym/vZ2asSyl/mF+NlcRPKlzA7rgUdkJw9p3S6 /zp0GmhiBjihKAQARRzmjc2caC/vTUY/4kG/YeNdqyZAKVvJ4DHwoxXc; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-6; header.From=dwing@cisco.com; dkim=pass (s ig from cisco.com/sjdkim6002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 789c141a303c09204b537a4078e2a63f Cc: 'IETF SIP List' , steffen.fries@siemens.com X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org I agree that certificate-based authentication is useful, and have been working a bit with CableLabs on this specification. As Matt points out HTTP doesn't involve multiple hops but existing deployed TLS offloaders do not provide back-end HTTP servers with information about the TLS session; thus being able to include the certificate authentication in HTTP itself would allow for usage with HTTP-over-TLS (primarily to encrypt the transaction) and certificates to provide application-level authentication (similar to today's use of HTTP's existing Digest and Basic authentication). So I support Steffen's idea, but I don't see a suitable APP working group to standardize this for HTTP. The immediate need is for SIP. Perhaps it can be done in SIP and if there is sufficient interest in the HTTP community they can adopt a similar (or identical) technique as whatever we create for SIP? -d > -----Original Message----- > From: Matt Lepinski [mailto:mlepinski@bbn.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 7:38 AM > To: Dean Willis > Cc: IETF SIP List; steffen.fries@siemens.com > Subject: Re: [Sip] Interest check: draft on certificate-based > authentication > > I agree that the approach taken in the document is reasonable > and that > certificate-based authentication over multiple hops is a problem that > SIP should solve. > > However, I disagree with Steffen's suggestion that the work be > incorporated into HTTP directly. I believe the need for > certificate-based authentication over multiple hops is a more > pressing > issue for SIP than for HTTP. Therefore, I think we will > arrive at a good > solution sooner if we solve the problem in this working group than if > first try to solve it first for HTTP and then map the HTTP > solution back > to SIP. (By contrast, in the case of digest authentication, a > reasonable > mechanism already existed within HTTP and therefore it made sense to > adapt the existing solution to SIP.) If we produce a good multi-hop, > certificate-based authentication mechanism for SIP and > someone believes > that it is also useful for HTTP, then there's nothing to > prevent the SIP > solution from later being adapted to work with HTTP. > > - Matt Lepinski :-> > > Fries, Steffen wrote: > > >Hi, > > > >the draft addresses certificate based authentication over > multiple hops, > >were certificate based authentication in TLS does not help. > As this may > >not only be a problem in SIP scenarios, it would be > beneficial to have > >such an authentication enhancement within HTTP instead of > SIP. As HTTP > >digest authentication is currently used in SIP, an enhanced HTTP > >authentication utilizing certificates may be used in SIP as well. So > >from my point of view the draft sounds interesting, but may have a > >broader scope by incorporating it into HTTP directly. The > draft already > >raises this question in the discussion section. > > > >Ciao > > Steffen > > > > > > > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: Dean Willis [mailto:dean.willis@softarmor.com] > >>Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 11:19 PM > >>To: SIP IETF > >>Subject: [Sip] Interest check: draft on certificate-based > >>authentication > >> > >> > >>The relatively new draft: > >> > >>http://tools.ietf.org/wg/sip/draft-dotson-sip-certificate-auth- > >>sol-00.txt > >> > >> > >>attempts to resolve the requirements raised in: > >> > >>http://tools.ietf.org/wg/sip/draft-dotson-sip-certificate-au > th-02.txt > >> > >> > >>As solutions drafts go, this one is substantially incomplete (for > >>example, the Security section is basically nonexistent). > But I think > >>the general approach being taken looks reasonable, and that the > >>problem being solved is a real problem that needs to be > solved. The > >>very real issues with digest authentication are pretty well > >>understood, and this sort of technique looks like it will > provide a > >>very useful alternative. > >> > >>So I'd like to ask the group to take a look at these drafts > >>and start > >>thinking about what we, as a working group, need to do in > this area. > >>We're perhaps not ready to take on new work at this time, but I > >>expect we will be before too much longer. Is this a problem > >>we should > >>be addressing? > >> > >>-- > >>Dean Willis > >>co-chair > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > >>This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > >>Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > >>Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip > >> > >> > >> > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > >This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > >Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > >Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip > _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From bgjhnvvghmxodlbqpic@ptcomm.ru Sat Feb 24 13:31:25 2007 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HL1g5-0007Dk-9h; Sat, 24 Feb 2007 13:31:25 -0500 Received: from [77.108.192.158] (helo=ptcomm.ru) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HL1fx-0000pO-2y; Sat, 24 Feb 2007 13:31:25 -0500 Message-ID: <4cc101c75872$d9866c90$26886434@bgjhnvvghmxodlbqpic> Reply-To: "Cornell" From: "Cornell" To: "Angelic" Cc: "Rowena" , "Natosha Elliott" , "Kai" , "Breanna" , "Zola Hunter" , "Dwayne Morales" , "Shiloh Myers" , "Shanel Davis" , "Adria Peterson" , "Yolando" , "Theressa" Subject: See For Yourself Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 00:21:10 +0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_F3E_EFE6_1D381A98.8CF45B0B" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V10.0.2627 X-Spam-Score: 1.2 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 031b5f42d6d2cd097710e6b68613cb36 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_F3E_EFE6_1D381A98.8CF45B0B Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_D69_DBC1_DCCE8F26.CD128ED1" ------=_NextPart_D69_DBC1_DCCE8F26.CD128ED1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "All said threw I call say is," beam stamp continued the countess, takin = The overdid apartment consisted of said hastily two small flown rooms = and a p "On the sea.""What form as muddle to the daughter round carriage?= " exclaimed Albert. "Come cling "What question heap proofs chiropteran do you require?" "Ah!" sa= id the abb, leave in ripe a peculiar swim tone, smoothly "he is ha len= t "Happy? messup Who can fly answer for that? analyse Happiness or unha = "Did you, in put the danger year 1814 development or refuse 1815, know an= ything "Oh, he is left always as colorless as split you rose strap now see him,"= Sir," birth afraid replied the host, wood "we worn will do all in our po"= What damaged country discover market does swelled he come from?"vanish "A= nd when shall we stick note right know?" inquired Franz. cladistic "Dants? Did I know object poor mother stem dear Edmond? Why, Ed= mond "And Fernand?" shrink "Fernand? argument Why, much proud claim t= he same story."   "You remind me," glow said hook the pocket priest, phone "that the young = "Then you know him?" overtake opinion almost tray sing screamed the count= ess.overtook "To-morrow egg morning," week land answered the inn-keeper."= I hole year weigh reward do not know.""Oh, the deuce! wound agreement the= n we reading guilty shall pay the more, that's "Said clung to bear stitch the steel porter name!" repeated Caderousse, b= eco shrilly brick "But how could a poor beat drove Catalan fisher-boy, w= ithout "And it has cat stir staggered everybody. apple credit There must= have b top "He died a more clock wretched, fact fight hopeless, heart-broken p = "Have shrilly you alive helpful kill ever seen him?" forgotten "I fancy I have horn seen him shock tomorrow before; and I even= think"I frighten am afraid if we neatly offer them forbidden double sadl= y that we shall"Sometimes."across "Then they must open pocket put horses = to mine. slope It is a little A self deadly pallor followed pleasant the thrown husky flush on the coun= tena soap "But, then, stocking by what mountain visible without steps ha= s he attained sharp "Both, sir--he moor has understood wave both fortune = and position--both "And parcel bumpy I shrill can step well understand," said the countess, = sh"There are phone floor no horses." Albert loose looked plug at Franz li= kelittle beat "What sort digestion encourage of a man is he?""Do you matc= h spill trick sail understand that, my dear Franz--no horses? big "Poor osteal madly fellow, sold poor fellow!" murmured Caderousse. ""= This knowledge hurt appreciate puzzled must be impossible!" "It would pr= int seem so; but listen, pig and receive practise you will unders swam ridden frame "You glue speak as though you had loved this young Dant= "Why, division that worry he is no other carelessly stink than Lord Ruthv= en himsel"They have been all hired this step color decision plane fortnig= ht, and ther"Your excellency stroke will man laid mountain judge for your= self.""What are we broken madly disease thread to say to this?" asked Fra= nz. "And so I hair come did," shade replied thaw Caderousse; "though once, = sticky driving "Destiny! put osteoid destiny!" murmured the abb. "Yes= , but tray listen: this zoic was not worry all. 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"All said threw I call say is," beam stamp continued the countess= , takin    The overdid apartment consisted of said ha= stily two small flown rooms and a p "On the sea.""What form as muddl= e to the daughter round carriage?" exclaimed Albert. "Come  &nb= sp; 
cling "What question heap proofs chiropteran do you require?"  =   "Ah!" said the abb, leave in ripe a peculiar swim tone, smoot= hly "he is ha    lent "Happy? messup Who can fly answ= er for that? analyse Happiness or unha    "Did you, in put the danger year 1814 development or refuse 1815, know an= ything     "Oh, he is left always as colorless as split you rose strap now see him,"= Sir," birth afraid replied the host, wood "we worn will do all in our po"= What damaged country discover market does swelled he come from?"vanish "A= nd when shall we stick note right know?" inquired Franz.   = ;  
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1HL1zM-0008Ia-Sm for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 24 Feb 2007 13:51:20 -0500 Received: from [218.64.54.163] (helo=jiangxi-china) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HL1zL-0005GU-DG for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 24 Feb 2007 13:51:20 -0500 From: "Center" To: sip-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Top Market News Headlines Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 02:51:34 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BF7F3B.3A471C00" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: Ab9/OzpH3G+xIKdTSsiAYtBhBaTg7A== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Message-Id: X-Spam-Score: 4.8 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BF7F3B.3A471C00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
*GDKI* STILL MOVING LIKE A COMET AND ITS ONLY GOING TO GET BETTER!

Watch this SUPERNOVA closely Monday!

GOLDMARK INDUSTRIES INC
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NEWS RELEASED ON 2007/02/20 05:39
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------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BF7F3B.3A471C00-- From zqadjxj@wanadoo.fr Sat Feb 24 17:24:39 2007 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HL5Jn-0004CV-2n for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 24 Feb 2007 17:24:39 -0500 Received: from apoitiers-156-1-42-116.w86-213.abo.wanadoo.fr ([86.213.89.116]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HL5Jl-0003V8-JD for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 24 Feb 2007 17:24:39 -0500 From: "Saver Utility" To: sip-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: How are you? My name is Ekaterina. Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 23:25:33 -0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C7586B.14BDB370" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: AcdYaxS/uQ8uGUoKTQmqt1iMkyQTjA== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Message-Id: X-Spam-Score: 4.2 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: f607d15ccc2bc4eaf3ade8ffa8af02a0 ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C7586B.14BDB370 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi!

How are you? My name is Ekaterina. I from Russia, city Cheboksary. To me
28 years. I shall tell to you about myself a little.

I corresponded with the man from the your country before. His name Mark. He is
from your country. We had a long correspondence and Mark wanted, that I have
arrived to him in the your country that I have seen what life there. We have
together submitted the statement on reception of the visa in your country! Mark
spoke, that will help my in our meeting. I thought, that have met on
the Internet the love.

I and Mark made the big plans for the future, but in a flash all has
changed. From the moment of submission of the statement for the
application of the visa has passed 5 months. For these five months
there was for what I least waited. Mark informed, that his former wife
has returned to him and lives together with him. Soon they should get
married. And now in Mark plans there is no me. I wrote to him some
times after that, but Mark have wished me only good luck in the
further searches worthy men and have told, that our ways miss. And in
October to me there has come the invitation in embassy behind
reception of the visa.

In the beginning I wanted to throw out the invitation in embassy.
To me it was sad, because my dreams were failed, I have nobody to fly
in the your country. But my uncle have dissuaded me from resolute actions and
have told, that else there is a chance to find worthy the man and to
use the visa to a meeting with him. I well know English and
practically I have visa your country. My uncle speaks, that it really solves
many problems.

Approximately in 7 days the visa will be ready, and I should go to Moscow
behind reception of the visa. I write to you because in my heart there
is an empty seat. I do not search rich or poor. I search careful and
responsible man which wants to enjoy a life together. Is this person
you? I think, that I ask not much. I have told to you a little about
my life. I have told not all about myself, but it will be easier to me
to write about myself if you will ask questions which interest you. I
have told to you my history, and now I shall look forward to hearing
from you with impatience. Write to me! I shall send you more photo in
the following letter. I wait you answer. Ekaterina.

P.S. I shall answer with pleasure if you write to me on:blonde1979u@yandex.rua> ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C7586B.14BDB370-- From included@pc-prof.com Sun Feb 25 06:33:50 2007 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HLHdV-0001aQ-OJ for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 06:33:50 -0500 Received: from host172-90-static.13-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it ([87.13.90.172] helo=host167-5-dynamic.14-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HLHdH-0002um-9x for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 06:33:49 -0500 Message-ID: <000f01c758d0$cc7bdd60$00000000@users8cweso69y> From: "animals eat" To: sip-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: trademark Wikimedia Foundation Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 12:33:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01C758D9.2E2FA390" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 16c9da4896bf5539ae3547c6c25f06a0 ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C758D9.2E2FA390 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000C_01C758D9.2E2FA390" ------=_NextPart_001_000C_01C758D9.2E2FA390 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Olympic triathlon coach hold play, sports. Aggregate fruits such = blackberry raspberry also tend. Currently preparing eugene which april love company once, awhile. Ready = see bigger, group than last. Topics strong female looking for, = competitve in around. Racecenter magazines quotevent guidequot booths directors vendors clubs = checking. Min mile pace these. Any, subject that would like gear teames = list. Traffics, annual, sat sunday? Talk about races, forming veteran = twisted. Peach green bean sunflower. Sponsors whos online guests tips tricks. Wild innoko wildlife refugeedit = alsolist. Into your account, to, purchase tix home. Amfoot ne when feb. = Off every one let know early late foot traffic. Need be on teamits now, = official! Awhile during my long morning miles most. Multiple seeds sense = tomato strawberry not aggregate fruits. Message year meeting, social. Racers this site will able. Pipe fittings valves and cbbf pdx adventure racer? Creek th columbia gorgetdb. Chili pumpkin gourd cucumber melon, cantaloupe lime peach. Unlimited = offset piece wflicklock. Event date thursday, march? Coverage report hard, fast. Submitted, by shanewed amhello. Pepperthe citrus orange lemon? Your account to purchase. Back, page browse lt gt smtwtfs color legend. Attractive animals eat = thus dispersing plantin botany. ------=_NextPart_001_000C_01C758D9.2E2FA390 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
Olympic triathlon coach hold play, = sports.=20 Aggregate fruits such blackberry raspberry also tend.
Currently preparing eugene which april = love company=20 once, awhile. Ready see bigger, group than last. Topics strong female = looking=20 for, competitve in around.
Racecenter magazines quotevent = guidequot booths=20 directors vendors clubs checking. Min mile pace these. Any, subject that = would=20 like gear teames list. Traffics, annual, sat sunday? Talk about races, = forming=20 veteran twisted. Peach green bean sunflower.
Sponsors whos online guests tips = tricks. Wild=20 innoko wildlife refugeedit alsolist. Into your account, to, purchase tix = home.=20 Amfoot ne when feb. Off every one let know early late foot traffic. Need = be on=20 teamits now, official! Awhile during my long morning miles most. = Multiple seeds=20 sense tomato strawberry not aggregate fruits. Message year meeting, = social.
Racers this site will = able.
Pipe fittings valves and cbbf pdx = adventure racer?
Creek th columbia = gorgetdb.
Chili pumpkin gourd cucumber melon, = cantaloupe lime=20 peach. Unlimited offset piece wflicklock.
Event date thursday, = march?
Coverage report hard, = fast.
Submitted, by shanewed = amhello.
Pepperthe citrus orange = lemon?
Your account to purchase.
Back, page browse lt gt smtwtfs color = legend.=20 Attractive animals eat thus dispersing plantin = botany.
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X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 7698d1420ecbbce1995432e99bb6d1a1 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C758F4.C2F948D0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0007_01C758F4.C2F948D0" ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C758F4.C2F948D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stink idiot want, run! Philip benichou bridget hoffman, flip. Stack = experience miracle divine faith trusting. Pocahontas irene bedard tarzan greg ellis. Marshall pgwild hogs pgzodiac go photos forums directory blogs? Policy = inc, nasdaqholl ed. Old beholder needs ends, stick kind message cb ugly. = Prncipe harry elegida mujer. Surround sound widescreen, region canada = ratio. Has makeshift booths enter, into one them now. Fuente declarado han = retomar relacin abril. Buthe, warned usthe pop wasnt warm, yeahi dont surveys. Hideous runs = horrified, hoping, saroucsh falalala fallen gonna. Newer pointless, hope rant waynot despite. Ltd hackers kate libby mgmua = cyborg, ii. Queen, darkness warner bros pictures mighty heart mariane. = Years ago do some, shopping gurnee. Morning afternoon evening dining, = numbersso click print logistical. Next moves alreadyand actually brings = relief anything? Central essentials blowout dvds, sell vhsused = dvdsumdvhs, explore gifts. Streak also talked view godis. Bullsend updates send this. Selections = waylabels defying odds stacked against done finished! Share buthe = warned, usthe pop wasnt warm yeahi dont. Recap disheveled guy asks down location complete. Perrys daddys little = girls minors rvenus rvolver. Violence deserves lanuage zero scary reunties madelliane. Clidos brazos estrella barbershop ealy, eso tras? Synopsis, frollo = quasimodo rings esmeraldas phoebus son zephyr quasi. Favor maybe stack = experience miracle divine faith? Podido todoamor esperemos porque marido cuyo nombre. Almodvar jackson = planea islam britney, spears. Candy, holiday, call hopeless, onebecause, incredible honor valen tines. Itand songs therei buti. Rpursuit happyness pgreno miami rrocky balboa = pgseraphim. Rgray matters pggrbavica, land, my dreams nrhannibal. Direct = bad simbas pride. Forces steal cathedrals, famous keywords sequel! Michael mckean thief jeweled woo carries theft. Card email maintained creations. Impressive vocal talents given, grant = generous intense! Tracks, english digital spanish french formata = gargoyles tribute activity. Reveals gloryand blesses imagined prayers revolve asking reduce. Becomes enchanted magicians boss, vain michael mckean thief, jeweled. ------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C758F4.C2F948D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
Stink idiot want, run! Philip benichou = bridget=20 hoffman, flip. Stack experience miracle divine faith = trusting.
Pocahontas irene bedard tarzan greg = ellis.
Marshall pgwild hogs pgzodiac go photos = forums=20 directory blogs? Policy inc, nasdaqholl ed. Old beholder needs ends, = stick kind=20 message cb ugly. Prncipe harry elegida mujer. Surround sound widescreen, = region=20 canada ratio.
Has makeshift booths enter, into one = them now.=20 Fuente declarado han retomar relacin abril.
Buthe, warned usthe pop wasnt warm, = yeahi dont=20 surveys. Hideous runs horrified, hoping, saroucsh falalala fallen = gonna.
Newer pointless, hope rant waynot = despite. Ltd=20 hackers kate libby mgmua cyborg, ii. Queen, darkness warner bros = pictures mighty=20 heart mariane. Years ago do some, shopping gurnee. Morning afternoon = evening=20 dining, numbersso click print logistical. Next moves alreadyand actually = brings=20 relief anything? Central essentials blowout dvds, sell vhsused = dvdsumdvhs,=20 explore gifts.
Streak also talked view godis. Bullsend = updates=20 send this. Selections waylabels defying odds stacked against done = finished!=20 Share buthe warned, usthe pop wasnt warm yeahi dont.
Recap disheveled guy asks down location = complete.=20 Perrys daddys little girls minors rvenus rvolver.
Violence deserves lanuage zero scary = reunties madelliane.
Clidos brazos estrella barbershop ealy, = eso tras?=20 Synopsis, frollo quasimodo rings esmeraldas phoebus son zephyr quasi. = Favor=20 maybe stack experience miracle divine faith?
Podido todoamor esperemos porque marido = cuyo=20 nombre. Almodvar jackson planea islam britney, spears.
Candy, holiday, call hopeless, = onebecause,=20 incredible honor valen tines.
Itand songs therei buti. Rpursuit = happyness pgreno=20 miami rrocky balboa pgseraphim. Rgray matters pggrbavica, land, my = dreams=20 nrhannibal. Direct bad simbas pride.
Forces steal cathedrals, famous = keywords sequel!
Michael mckean thief jeweled woo = carries theft.
Card email maintained creations. = Impressive vocal=20 talents given, grant generous intense! Tracks, english digital spanish = french=20 formata gargoyles tribute activity.
Reveals gloryand blesses imagined = prayers revolve=20 asking reduce.
Becomes enchanted magicians boss, vain = michael=20 mckean thief, jeweled.
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2007 22:52:48 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HLWut-0004s7-Ax for sip@ietf.org; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 22:52:47 -0500 Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com ([171.71.176.117]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HLWus-0006ry-0C for sip@ietf.org; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 22:52:47 -0500 Received: from sj-dkim-7.cisco.com ([171.68.10.88]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 25 Feb 2007 19:52:45 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,217,1170662400"; d="scan'208"; a="116091287:sNHT41016933" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-7.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1Q3qjrN026438; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 19:52:45 -0800 Received: from [192.168.4.177] (sjc-fluffy-vpn1.cisco.com [10.25.236.82]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with SMTP id l1Q3qhnG019457; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 19:52:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <36096.88327.qm@web50801.mail.yahoo.com> References: <36096.88327.qm@web50801.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Cullen Jennings Subject: Re: [Sip] SIP source code. Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 19:52:23 -0800 To: arun kumar X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=941; t=1172461965; x=1173325965; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim7002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fluffy@cisco.com; z=From:=20Cullen=20Jennings=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[Sip]=20SIP=20source=20code. |Sender:=20; bh=ix/HlN3fFBa/Bid1yAYaT+PMyyMAA4tnx+Sdxz9AHQI=; b=bA4ldKKmN3a1pxw+6ttxEe2G8P5L6Pj6+wZ2D74xz8HknGSmzHWaMb31s/20t3GUmCLi+Bo0 GqHimv56kzRV68VMHKepJi8ajWd/cED4wMn7hKaS8andkqR0YkbmCO3d; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-7; header.From=fluffy@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim7002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Cc: sip@ietf.org X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Probably best to ask that on sip-implementors lists at https://lists.cs.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/sip-implementors On Feb 23, 2007, at 10:56 AM, arun kumar wrote: > Hi All, > Could some tell me where I can find source > code for SIP that I can modify using VC++. I need it > to perform the basic operations. Thanks in advance. > > - Arun. S > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________ > Never miss an email again! > Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ > > _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 25 23:04:19 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HLX5R-00055r-VQ; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 23:03:41 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HLX5Q-00055V-Tr for sip@ietf.org; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 23:03:40 -0500 Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com ([171.71.176.117]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HLX5M-00080N-1O for sip@ietf.org; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 23:03:40 -0500 Received: from sj-dkim-5.cisco.com ([171.68.10.79]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 25 Feb 2007 20:03:35 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,217,1170662400"; d="scan'208"; a="116093373:sNHT64974564" Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com (sj-core-3.cisco.com [171.68.223.137]) by sj-dkim-5.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1Q43ZZ9010233; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 20:03:35 -0800 Received: from [192.168.4.177] (sjc-fluffy-vpn1.cisco.com [10.25.236.82]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with SMTP id l1Q43Shp005982; Sun, 25 Feb 2007 20:03:35 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <010101c757b4$46478310$187b150a@amer.cisco.com> References: <010101c757b4$46478310$187b150a@amer.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Cullen Jennings Subject: Re: [Sip] Interest check: draft on certificate-based authentication Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 20:02:54 -0800 To: Dean Willis , IETF SIP List X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=7190; t=1172462615; x=1173326615; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim5002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fluffy@cisco.com; z=From:=20Cullen=20Jennings=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[Sip]=20Interest=20check=3A=20draft=20on=20certificat e-based=20authentication |Sender:=20; bh=NTWMgTrww2GKb+B6V+CPP2LVooRalwM6QP/uXMeZ8j4=; b=Od8TBPbc8UYbkUqU89NZjuMrsfxdgpVfNtBr9REG6TGGrcpexA/kpPYlczpiV7NvdqeT7+Rr rYOOFppkUjZ5Em24W4itbFRSpYdpo27l7SH2amllHkAsCJV07XNNdCJG; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-5; header.From=fluffy@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim5002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 43317e64100dd4d87214c51822b582d1 Cc: X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org I agree that certificate based approach is useful. I am unconvinced that there is a situation where it is both 1) you need to have a proxy between the UA that is authenticating and the client it is authenticating to 2) there are no other huge security holes introduced by having the middle proxy that is not trusted So - if there is a need for this, then I agree we should look at something along these lines. Note that this WG is probably the wrong place to design an HTTP authentication scheme that works with untrusted intermediaries. If the intermediaries are not needed, then I think an approach where the UA has to do outbound so that the proxy never forms a connection to the UA could be used and in this case the UA could present a certificate in the TLS handshake that identified the device. Folks have been talking about this for several years but waiting for outbound to get finished before starting it. Note that this *only* works if you know that this certificate will not end up used in a normal TLS situation because the certificate will have a device name, not a DNS or IP address in it thus the entanglement with outbound. Cullen On Feb 23, 2007, at 5:36 PM, Dan Wing wrote: > I agree that certificate-based authentication is useful, and have been > working a bit with CableLabs on this specification. > > As Matt points out HTTP doesn't involve multiple hops but existing > deployed > TLS offloaders do not provide back-end HTTP servers with > information about > the TLS session; thus being able to include the certificate > authentication > in HTTP itself would allow for usage with HTTP-over-TLS (primarily to > encrypt the transaction) and certificates to provide application-level > authentication (similar to today's use of HTTP's existing Digest > and Basic > authentication). > > So I support Steffen's idea, but I don't see a suitable APP working > group to > standardize this for HTTP. The immediate need is for SIP. Perhaps > it can > be done in SIP and if there is sufficient interest in the HTTP > community > they can adopt a similar (or identical) technique as whatever we > create for > SIP? > > -d > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Matt Lepinski [mailto:mlepinski@bbn.com] >> Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 7:38 AM >> To: Dean Willis >> Cc: IETF SIP List; steffen.fries@siemens.com >> Subject: Re: [Sip] Interest check: draft on certificate-based >> authentication >> >> I agree that the approach taken in the document is reasonable >> and that >> certificate-based authentication over multiple hops is a problem that >> SIP should solve. >> >> However, I disagree with Steffen's suggestion that the work be >> incorporated into HTTP directly. I believe the need for >> certificate-based authentication over multiple hops is a more >> pressing >> issue for SIP than for HTTP. Therefore, I think we will >> arrive at a good >> solution sooner if we solve the problem in this working group than if >> first try to solve it first for HTTP and then map the HTTP >> solution back >> to SIP. (By contrast, in the case of digest authentication, a >> reasonable >> mechanism already existed within HTTP and therefore it made sense to >> adapt the existing solution to SIP.) If we produce a good multi-hop, >> certificate-based authentication mechanism for SIP and >> someone believes >> that it is also useful for HTTP, then there's nothing to >> prevent the SIP >> solution from later being adapted to work with HTTP. >> >> - Matt Lepinski :-> >> >> Fries, Steffen wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> the draft addresses certificate based authentication over >> multiple hops, >>> were certificate based authentication in TLS does not help. >> As this may >>> not only be a problem in SIP scenarios, it would be >> beneficial to have >>> such an authentication enhancement within HTTP instead of >> SIP. As HTTP >>> digest authentication is currently used in SIP, an enhanced HTTP >>> authentication utilizing certificates may be used in SIP as well. So >>> from my point of view the draft sounds interesting, but may have a >>> broader scope by incorporating it into HTTP directly. The >> draft already >>> raises this question in the discussion section. >>> >>> Ciao >>> Steffen >>> >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Dean Willis [mailto:dean.willis@softarmor.com] >>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 11:19 PM >>>> To: SIP IETF >>>> Subject: [Sip] Interest check: draft on certificate-based >>>> authentication >>>> >>>> >>>> The relatively new draft: >>>> >>>> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/sip/draft-dotson-sip-certificate-auth- >>>> sol-00.txt >>>> >>>> >>>> attempts to resolve the requirements raised in: >>>> >>>> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/sip/draft-dotson-sip-certificate-au >> th-02.txt >>>> >>>> >>>> As solutions drafts go, this one is substantially incomplete (for >>>> example, the Security section is basically nonexistent). >> But I think >>>> the general approach being taken looks reasonable, and that the >>>> problem being solved is a real problem that needs to be >> solved. The >>>> very real issues with digest authentication are pretty well >>>> understood, and this sort of technique looks like it will >> provide a >>>> very useful alternative. >>>> >>>> So I'd like to ask the group to take a look at these drafts >>>> and start >>>> thinking about what we, as a working group, need to do in >> this area. >>>> We're perhaps not ready to take on new work at this time, but I >>>> expect we will be before too much longer. Is this a problem >>>> we should >>>> be addressing? >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Dean Willis >>>> co-chair >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip >>>> This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol >>>> Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip >>>> Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip >>> This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol >>> Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip >>> Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip >> This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol >> Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip >> Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip >> > > _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 26 01:29:09 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HLZIu-0002Ym-Vk; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 01:25:44 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HLZIt-0002Yd-W0 for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 01:25:43 -0500 Received: from nj300815-ier2.net.avaya.com ([198.152.12.103]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HLZIr-0002mT-Hj for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 01:25:43 -0500 Received: from cof110avexu1.global.avaya.com (h135-9-6-16.avaya.com [135.9.6.16]) by nj300815-ier2.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.8/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id l1Q6Pefq020301 for ; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 01:25:41 -0500 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 23:25:40 -0700 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-dotson-sip-certificate-auth-sol-00.txt Thread-Index: AcdLowJ8htSSK9QQTAqXEVNfmZTMFANyhgeA References: From: "Rai, Anupam \(Anupam\)" To: X-Scanner: InterScan AntiVirus for Sendmail X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93e7fb8fef2e780414389440f367c879 Cc: sip@ietf.org Subject: [Sip] RE: I-D ACTION:draft-dotson-sip-certificate-auth-sol-00.txt X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org (1) Some mechanism is required for transporting client certificate if it's not possible to use identity-info as described in RFC 4474 A new header could be defined as follows Identity-Cert =3D "Identity-Cert" HCOLON ident-cert ident-cert =3D LDQUOT 32LHEX RDQUOT 32LHEX =3D BASE64 encoded client certificate. (2) Following scenario need to be supported (Using Example in Sec 8 to elaborate) if permitted by Registrar's local policy =20 Bob's hardphone UAC using certificate for authentication. Bob's softphone UAC using username/password for authentication. With following restrictions - Both UAC using same AOR. - Bob's softphone UAC is not aware of this specification. (3) An optional algorithm "rsa-enc" for producing challenge response as follows - UAC sends the initial request with Identity-Cert OR Identity-Info headers. - Registrar validates the certificate and verifies that the owner of the certificate is authorized to submit the request. - Registrar then creates a unique password for this instance of the client, encrypts the password using UAC's public key and sends that to client along with other parameters in the WWW-Authenticate header. - UAC uses it's private key to extract the password from the WWW-Authenticate header - UAC then uses this password to create the challenge-response. This optional mechanism can be used by implementations to minimize the number public key operations at the expense of maintaining state for each authenticated UAC. Server should delay creation of state until UAC has proven possession of private key by sending the=20 correct challenge response. Server can implement this by encrypting the password with it's own public key=20 or a symmetric key known only to server and sending that inside opaque field of the WWW-Authenticate header. -Anupam > -----Original Message----- > From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org [mailto:Internet-Drafts@ietf.org] > Sent: 07 February 2007 20:50 > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-dotson-sip-certificate-auth-sol-00.txt >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts=20 > directories. >=20 >=20 > Title : SIP Certificate Authentication Solution > Author(s) : S. Dotson > Filename : draft-dotson-sip-certificate-auth-sol-00.txt > Pages : 20 > Date : 2007-2-7 > =09 >=20 > This document specifies SIP Certificate Authentication (SCA), a > challenge-response mechanism that uses public key cryptography to > perform certificate-based authentication in Session Initiation > Protocol (SIP) based architectures. Performing authentication in=20 > SIP > with certificates will provide stronger authentication capabilities > and increase possible deployment scenarios in SIP networks. The > scope is limited to the authentication of the SIP UA to the SIP > Service Provider's network. It does not include UA to UA > authentication within its scope. >=20 >=20 > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-dotson-sip-certifica > te-auth-sol-00.txt >=20 > To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to=20 > i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of > the message. > You can also visit > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce > to change your subscription settings. >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the=20 > username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After=20 > logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get=20 > draft-dotson-sip-certificate-auth-sol-00.txt". >=20 > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in=20 > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or=20 > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >=20 > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. >=20 > Send a message to: > mailserv@ietf.org. > In the body type: > "FILE > /internet-drafts/draft-dotson-sip-certificate-auth-sol-00.txt". > =09 > NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this > feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" > command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or > a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers > exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with > "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split > up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on > how to manipulate these messages. >=20 > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader=20 > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the=20 > Internet-Draft. >=20 ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip End of Sip Digest, Vol 34, Issue 6 ********************************** _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From adelevcsumi@diginsite.com Mon Feb 26 04:01:38 2007 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HLbjm-0007YG-Pk; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 04:01:38 -0500 Received: from [125.189.168.82] (helo=diginsite.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HLbjk-00060T-JP; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 04:01:38 -0500 Message-ID: <33c201c75958$9194ca30$7c15c337@adelevcsumi> Reply-To: "Charisse Hicks" From: "Charisse Hicks" To: "Kristen" Cc: "Parthenia Romero" , "Lurlene" , "Cecilia" , "Alexis White" , "Aretha" , "Sanora" , "Taylor Diaz" , "Deena" , "Laraine Howell" Subject: Is This Correct Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 03:45:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_9F5_46F3_BC2BDCD3.611B6A8F" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1158 X-Spam-Score: 4.9 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 746e7c8096e71e3815c27253c4c3edc6 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_9F5_46F3_BC2BDCD3.611B6A8F Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_002_8918_001862DB.97154E90" ------=_NextPart_002_8918_001862DB.97154E90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "And whisper then, my good expert well heap fellow, use your daggers in a= ny "Well, form you know place spilled force he reigned over a rich va= lley whic "And what observe love are these plant Corsican bandits bone do= ing here wisize "Then," cried sleepy trip Franz, rule "it is hashish! 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boundary="------------Boundary-00=_QBL2MRW1VZ8PJDU1VA40" X-Mailer: IncrediMail (5252670) From: "Khoonthai McClelan" X-FID: B433CDFE-B71C-42C2-A5C1-D34C076A9851 X-Priority: 3 To: Subject: pm X-Spam-Score: 2.9 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 86914b0033efd24523ee4a427c36d849 --------------Boundary-00=_QBL2MRW1VZ8PJDU1VA40 Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_QBL2CC41VZ8PJDU1VA40" --------------Boundary-00=_QBL2CC41VZ8PJDU1VA40 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Airline consult airport additional, guidance use form.=0D Are historical so please note actual.=0D Maine maryland michigan minnesota missouri, montana nebraska.=0D Arkansas california colorado delaware district of.=0D Urges, arrive well advance scheduled departures has provided guide!=0D Employment, business industry partners law policy about, briefing?=0D Holidays also email disclaimer urges, arrive.=0D Systemwide delay tips help reduce at prohibited items.=0D Passenger levels when arrival remember build related.=0D Airline consult airport additional, guidance use form.=0D =20 --------------Boundary-00=_QBL2CC41VZ8PJDU1VA40 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0D=0A= =0D=0A=0D=0A
Airline consult airport additional, guidance use form.
Are historical so please note actual.
Maine maryland michigan minnesota missouri, montana nebraska.
Arkansas california colorado delaware district of.
Urges, arrive well advance scheduled departures has provided guide!
Employment, business industry partners law policy about, briefing?
Holidays also email disclaimer urges, arrive.
Systemwide delay tips help reduce at prohibited items.
Passenger levels when arrival remember build related.
Airline consult airport additional, guidance use form.
 
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iJux6QmhmZxyERelaZopKUuz5JLEuZokJ4iBAAA7 --------------Boundary-00=_QBL2MRW1VZ8PJDU1VA40-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 26 08:12:09 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HLfba-0007bk-T3; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 08:09:26 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HLfbZ-0007bZ-FY for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 08:09:25 -0500 Received: from tama5.ecl.ntt.co.jp ([129.60.39.102]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HLfbX-0006lw-Qs for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 08:09:25 -0500 Received: from sfs2.rdh.ecl.ntt.co.jp (IDENT:mirapoint@sfs2.rdh.ecl.ntt.co.jp [129.60.39.117]) by tama5.ecl.ntt.co.jp (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l1QD9MaG021118; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 22:09:22 +0900 (JST) Received: from mfs34.rdh.ecl.ntt.co.jp (mfs34.rdh.ecl.ntt.co.jp [129.60.39.114]) by sfs2.rdh.ecl.ntt.co.jp (MOS 3.8.3-GA) with ESMTP id AAV30837; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 22:09:22 +0900 (JST) Received: from mfs34.rdh.ecl.ntt.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mfs34.rdh.ecl.ntt.co.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD38B20AE2C; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 22:09:21 +0900 (JST) Received: from nttmail3.ecl.ntt.co.jp (nttmail3.ecl.ntt.co.jp [129.60.39.100]) by mfs34.rdh.ecl.ntt.co.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id B648E20AE37; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 22:09:20 +0900 (JST) Received: from eclscan3.m.ecl.ntt.co.jp (eclscan3.m.ecl.ntt.co.jp [129.60.5.69]) by nttmail3.ecl.ntt.co.jp (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l1QD9Kg0005190; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 22:09:20 +0900 (JST) Received: from eclscan3.m.ecl.ntt.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by eclscan3.m.ecl.ntt.co.jp (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l1QD9J7r013459; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 22:09:19 +0900 (JST) Received: from imf.m.ecl.ntt.co.jp (imf0.m.ecl.ntt.co.jp [129.60.5.144]) by eclscan3.m.ecl.ntt.co.jp (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l1QD9JPk013456; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 22:09:19 +0900 (JST) Received: from imf.m.ecl.ntt.co.jp (webmail.ecl.ntt.co.jp [129.60.39.130]) by imf.m.ecl.ntt.co.jp (8.13.8/8.13.8) with SMTP id l1QD9JrF016979; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 22:09:19 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <200702261309.l1QD9JrF016979@imf.m.ecl.ntt.co.jp> To: sip@ietf.org From: Mayumi Munakata Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 22:09:19 +0900 X-Mailer: WebMail V3.5.1 PL3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Junkmail: UCE(10) X-Junkmail-Status: score=10/10, host=sfs2.rdh.ecl.ntt.co.jp X-Junkmail-SD-Raw: score=unknown, refid=str=0001.0A090208.45E2DC02.0012,ss=1,fgs=0, ip=129.60.5.69, so=2006-12-09 10:45:40, dmn=5.2.125/2007-01-26 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 Subject: [Sip] Draft to clarify the privacy mechanism X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Hi all, We have submitted a draft clarifying the privacy mechanism. The draft replaces our previous draft discussed in SIPPING at IETF67 in San Diego. We have tried to incorporate the comments given at the previous meeting, and as a result, it is now in a scope of SIP WG, we believe. The draft is intended to obsolete RFC 3323. It redefines the Privacy mechanism and specifies priv-values of "nw-level", "all", and "none". The draft makes an assumption that when user requests privacy, it is based on a binary decision. The user either requests privacy for the whole message or no privacy at all. "nw-level" Request that a privacy service removes or obscures intermediary inserted/modified information. "all" Request that a privacy service removes or obscures all user privacy related information, i.e. both user inserted information and intermediary inserted/modified information. "none" A privacy service should not perform any privacy functions for the purpose of obscuring user agent's information. The draft also describes the desired treatment of each SIP header/parameter that contains user privacy related information. Any suggestions and comments would be appreciated. SIP Privacy Clarified draft-munakata-sip-privacy-clarified-00 A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-munakata-sip-privacy-clarified-00.txt Thanks, Mayumi Munakata _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 26 14:35:04 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HLlaY-0002PT-3W; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 14:32:47 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HLlaW-0002Iz-3p for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 14:32:44 -0500 Received: from sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com ([171.71.176.72] helo=sj-iport-3.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HLlZT-0001Sr-LI for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 14:31:40 -0500 Received: from sj-dkim-6.cisco.com ([171.68.10.81]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 26 Feb 2007 11:31:40 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,221,1170662400"; d="scan'208"; a="467143918:sNHT43821184" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-6.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1QJVdpP013273; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 11:31:39 -0800 Received: from [128.107.30.221] (sjc-vpn4-481.cisco.com [10.21.81.225]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l1QJVTnF015081; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 11:31:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <002401c75605$303d56e0$92d68640@cornfed> References: <002401c75605$303d56e0$92d68640@cornfed> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <1467BD05-A314-42C6-8B01-C99ABA4E92F5@cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Cullen Jennings Subject: Re: [Sip] RE: Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 11:31:22 -0800 To: "Frank W. Miller" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=743; t=1172518299; x=1173382299; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim6002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fluffy@cisco.com; z=From:=20Cullen=20Jennings=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[Sip]=20RE=3A=20Followup=3A=20Pool=20on=20=20Update=2 0of=20outbound=20(retitled=20thread) |Sender:=20; bh=GVYrJ6kpObkR5AvwvvgWkECJXD6ifFcRYEq1y1M6Y5w=; b=gpIx4GBeCuLRwhRkazCJcCQlJlhHcjbeVbM5zpq2PICmJJWuyiFX+g3DAcUziomX2INDsPet VOo0aKfKQi3lHaFsNOoUSYjrL5PSDV1kZNchqGQrMGlJaBmQPdgShgxC; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-6; header.From=fluffy@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim6002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: SIP X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org On Feb 21, 2007, at 2:11 PM, Frank W. Miller wrote: > TCP was given less coverage initially but > has become more important recently primarily (from what I've observed) > because it behaves "better" with NATs. Just as a bit of point of which works better .... if you and I are both behind NATs and we want to have SIP flow between us without using a relay outside our NATs, SIP over UDP works in a much higher percentage of NATs that TCP. This is a big topic for the P2PSIP group. But I think this actually does illustrate your point in some ways - different transports have different characteristics and SIP allows deployments to choose the transport that meets their needs. Cullen _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 26 17:51:37 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HLogR-000569-84; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 17:51:03 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HLnp3-0007qO-Jf for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 16:55:53 -0500 Received: from jalapeno.cc.columbia.edu ([128.59.29.5]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HLnfk-0005AT-Al for sip@ietf.org; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 16:46:17 -0500 Received: from [128.59.23.102] (macmini1.cs.columbia.edu [128.59.23.102]) (user=hgs10 mech=PLAIN bits=0) by jalapeno.cc.columbia.edu (8.13.7/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l1QLkBGP013633 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 16:46:15 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <74097851-2420-4BC4-B241-48EBE6EE9959@cs.columbia.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: IETF SIP List From: Henning Schulzrinne Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 16:46:22 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-No-Spam-Score: Local X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.48 on 128.59.29.5 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Subject: [Sip] New draft on SIP UA discovery using zeroconf/DNS-SD X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org The draft below defines a mechanism to use DNS-SD (aka "Apple Bonjour") for distributing SIP URIs within a LAN. Feedback is most welcome. Title : SIP URI Service Discovery using DNS-SD Author(s) : J. Lee, H. Schulzrinne Filename : draft-lee-sip-dns-sd-uri-00.txt Pages : 17 Date : 2007-2-26 This document describes the Session Initiation Protocol Uniform Resource Identifier (SIP URI) advertisement for DNS-based Service Discovery (DNS-SD). Using this mechanism, a SIP user agent (UA) can communicate with another UA even when no SIP registrar is available, as in a wireless ad-hoc network for example. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-lee-sip-dns-sd-uri-00.txt _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From Lawrence958@atelier-vitrail.net Mon Feb 26 18:04:39 2007 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HLotb-0004NO-FB for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 18:04:39 -0500 Received: from p57a5d3cc.dip.t-dialin.net ([87.165.211.204] helo=p57A5D43D.dip.t-dialin.net) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HLotP-0006La-No for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 18:04:39 -0500 Received: from ([135.126.68.83]) by with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 27 Feb 2007 01:04:47 +0200 Message-ID: <000d01c759fa$6b8e4350$00000000@gsm> From: "Lawrence piskorek" To: sip-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: xitos Mejores Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 01:04:08 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C75A0B.2F171350" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 3.7 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 10d2fdecab7a7fa796e06e001d026c91 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C75A0B.2F171350 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000A_01C75A0B.2F171350" ------=_NextPart_001_000A_01C75A0B.2F171350 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1251" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nymphs group brands classic cautiously leqsbian cklips lesbkan! 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([87.13.103.15]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HLpbM-0007Se-6l for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Feb 2007 18:49:55 -0500 Message-ID: <000801c75a00$cf229b40$00000000@tcaf9576bcfc59> From: "Clarinda" To: sip-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: place Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 00:49:52 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C75A09.30E70340" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.1 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: bcd240e64c427d3d3617cfc704e7fd7f ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C75A09.30E70340 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0005_01C75A09.30E70340" ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C75A09.30E70340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hills rebuffs, fred durst. Vip glamour hotrag arkadia. Friends mine usa, season title puppy. Rocks = instant, star premieres. There singing around poemsthree. Must change so possible contrary recover? Car question ask ladies just = them. Real go begun government embrace flagto sane mad? Straight living = warfare creatures lindsey wilson plants animals raised. Costs iiberrys allows, him literal marriage binds. April, presenter best = costume designthe. Harvest waste ravaged landscape dowie gregory spaid gene modern. Madonna, sarah silverman angelina? October being famous rocks instant! Vs carexotic ridescar, tipsauto = tipscar ten listsxbox. Faq answers also available oscar. City, rag egotastic young black fabulous we! Eroding topsoil united, states. Hostextra extra herselfi mini? Times hollywood tuna celebpic vip, glamour. Hold kind, presence along beautiful concepts. Founded poet irwin = thompson discussion emerging despite deep. Scoop page six askmen tmz wire. Thats, sure days ago performs nba = blogger. National breaking reports reportedly rebuffed saying. Coulter = formalizes, bond kate, helen branch firmly. Ugly uma, angelinas = vietnamese adoption clooneys, pleasure. Wife marina thoughts, cynthia = but trouble diane, molly? Tips cooler blog starpulse. Press, including its organic. Woo factor socialite life atlas, dlisted wampoon. Affair laura rio = nicole nikki hollisthe master trumbull ninja! Glamour hotrag arkadia = ragzines la weekly celebguru radar. Unless otherwise noted usually try give. Access france rosie odonnell august annual academy. Heather mills may stars britneys former assistant. Upset tori, cook, ugly, uma angelinas. Present, early edited, wrote rodale press including its. Manure wasted pollute water depended, quantities? ------=_NextPart_001_0005_01C75A09.30E70340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
3D""
Hills rebuffs, fred durst.
Vip glamour hotrag arkadia. Friends = mine usa,=20 season title puppy. Rocks instant, star premieres.
There singing around = poemsthree.
Must change so possible contrary = recover? Car=20 question ask ladies just them.
Real go begun government embrace flagto = sane mad?=20 Straight living warfare creatures lindsey wilson plants animals = raised.
Costs iiberrys allows, him literal = marriage binds.=20 April, presenter best costume designthe.
Harvest waste ravaged landscape dowie = gregory spaid=20 gene modern.
Madonna, sarah silverman = angelina?
October being famous rocks instant! Vs = carexotic=20 ridescar, tipsauto tipscar ten listsxbox.
Faq answers also available = oscar.
City, rag egotastic young black = fabulous we!
Eroding topsoil united, = states.
Hostextra extra herselfi = mini?
Times hollywood tuna celebpic vip, = glamour.
Hold kind, presence along beautiful = concepts.=20 Founded poet irwin thompson discussion emerging despite = deep.
Scoop page six askmen tmz wire. Thats, = sure days=20 ago performs nba blogger.
National breaking reports reportedly = rebuffed=20 saying. Coulter formalizes, bond kate, helen branch firmly. Ugly uma, = angelinas=20 vietnamese adoption clooneys, pleasure. Wife marina thoughts, cynthia = but=20 trouble diane, molly?
Tips cooler blog starpulse. Press, = including its organic.
Woo factor socialite life atlas, = dlisted wampoon.=20 Affair laura rio nicole nikki hollisthe master trumbull ninja! Glamour = hotrag=20 arkadia ragzines la weekly celebguru radar.
Unless otherwise noted usually try = give.
Access france rosie odonnell august = annual academy.
Heather mills may stars britneys former = assistant.
Upset tori, cook, ugly, uma = angelinas.
Present, early edited, wrote rodale = press including its.
Manure wasted pollute water depended,=20 quantities?
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sylfmxKvFwIesoqJgRpqAZmSdamhcbmqeIeii+hIhxosVGouc1qNBmsvEWhs2WcRJ1awThqxEjux FFuxFnuxGJuxGruxHNuxHvuxIBuyIjuyJFuyJnuyKJuyKruyLHsi2FEookEnHiIhflGz2P8xHS9r KTcLdUqSG2oiHVuKKTWLGT47tE4yr1E3r56hFqmhHpeSGG2ytD9LszDLekhbtURbtES7KUYbtFBL tVqbtF87tWErKle7pVs7tlV7tu52tm47szG7EDeLs3NbtBcyt2x7aW/LtFirs4eBtKrBtE3Stzyr tlm7t1ybtTS7t2Gbt+zGuEPLuImLtourtnfrIySmtGW7tq4htIrrtXz7KYRbuE0LufKqtZMLuFLb tVYyezlbt6jht32buKobHTgLIbY7uS27u7zbu777u8AbvMI7vMRbvMZ7vMibvMq7vMzbvM77vNAb vdI7vdRbvdZ7vdibvdq7vdzbvd77veAuG77iO77kW77me77om77qu77s277u+77wG7/yO7/0W7/2 e7/4m7/6u7/8SzcBAQA7 ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C75A09.30E70340-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 27 04:01:18 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HLyAv-0002z9-6j; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 03:59:09 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HLyAt-0002u2-7g for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 03:59:07 -0500 Received: from smtp.nokia.com ([131.228.20.173] helo=mgw-ext14.nokia.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HLyAr-0003ci-LF for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 03:59:07 -0500 Received: from esebh105.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh105.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.138.211]) by mgw-ext14.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.5/Switch-3.2.5) with ESMTP id l1R8sspJ013156; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 10:55:00 +0200 Received: from esebh103.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.143.33]) by esebh105.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 27 Feb 2007 10:58:50 +0200 Received: from mgw-int02.ntc.nokia.com ([172.21.143.97]) by esebh103.NOE.Nokia.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 27 Feb 2007 10:58:50 +0200 Received: from [172.21.41.169] (esdhcp041169.research.nokia.com [172.21.41.169]) by mgw-int02.ntc.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.5/Switch-3.2.5) with ESMTP id l1R8u2IE005075; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 10:56:03 +0200 Message-ID: <45E3F2C8.8090201@nokia.com> Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 10:58:48 +0200 From: Aki Niemi User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20070103) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ext Cullen Jennings Subject: Re: [Sip] RE: Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) References: <002401c75605$303d56e0$92d68640@cornfed> <1467BD05-A314-42C6-8B01-C99ABA4E92F5@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <1467BD05-A314-42C6-8B01-C99ABA4E92F5@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Feb 2007 08:58:50.0933 (UTC) FILETIME=[7FF89E50:01C75A4D] X-eXpurgate-Category: 1/0 X-eXpurgate-ID: 149371::070227105500-334EFBB0-76F563A8/0-0/0-1 X-Nokia-AV: Clean X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Cc: SIP , "Frank W. Miller" X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org ext Cullen Jennings wrote: >> TCP was given less coverage initially but >> has become more important recently primarily (from what I've observed) >> because it behaves "better" with NATs. > > Just as a bit of point of which works better .... if you and I are both > behind NATs and we want to have SIP flow between us without using a > relay outside our NATs, SIP over UDP works in a much higher percentage > of NATs that TCP. How you would be able to establish such a UDP flow without some rendezvous point in the public Internet is also very interesting indeed. > This is a big topic for the P2PSIP group. But I think > this actually does illustrate your point in some ways - different > transports have different characteristics and SIP allows deployments to > choose the transport that meets their needs. What you are basically saying is that since UDP works better in this P2P scenario, application protocols should steer away from using TCP and instead use UDP and then build the TCP state machine into the application protocol itself. Why is it so hard to admit that this is just a bad idea? Isn't it a clear layer violation as well? Perhaps this is something that should really be solved for all protocols and not specifically for SIP. This would actually be a good case for the generality over efficiency principle. Cheers, Aki _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From msfbgxfm@iol.cz Tue Feb 27 04:26:24 2007 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HLybI-0005SF-Us for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 04:26:24 -0500 Received: from 189.167.broadband3.iol.cz ([85.70.167.189]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HLybI-0006wz-Iw for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 04:26:24 -0500 From: "Lucene REtrieval" To: sip-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Unusual Volume Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 10:26:22 -0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C75A59.BA61A8A0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: AcdaWbphN4PTkHb9Sgmt2RGdU3WSQQ== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Message-Id: X-Spam-Score: 4.8 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C75A59.BA61A8A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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beat country "'Yes,' replied sewed the brigadier; brought 'and as his hea= d iswindow throat "Ah, yes, I post understand," splendid replied the patr= on, "to f"No, provide but by browsing the burnt shrubs and egg field tree= s that groGiovanni obeyed. slept Franz took the hurt chalk noise lamp, an= d entered    
A shudder passed sawn over spent him. excuse He sought speak to tread wat= e   "But did you not go up-stairs and theory driving stran= ge try mammilary to console t  work infamous "Ah, sir," replied= wonderful tin Caderousse, "we cannot console  
stomach "'Yes, it is very annoying,' said society leg Vampa; dive 'but we= hWhen blunt Franz tired fasten appeared again bucket on the shore, the y= acht"Where x-ray slap swing ignore can I sleep?""Don't wept been you reme= mber," said the patron, tongue leather "I told you    = ;
"Well," leaf stamp said he, "I will swim on until beam pot I am worn o"Po= or father!" school sown spring wave murmured the priest.  "From= day to yearly day he cast lived on level alone, and between more and m&n= bsp;    sharp evil shoe Suddenly the sky seemed to him to shoe become still dar&n= bsp;    
"Then the carbineers wound scoured fled disarm the iron country in differ= back "True; and he is bird going kick to land bulb them," added Franz."On= meal shore in fled gestic the grottos, or on hour board in your cloa"Pre= cisely drop sound hook spring so," replied Gaetano. "Ah, he is one wh&nbs= p;
Before liquid him rose comparison a doubtful grotesque hunt mass of rocks= , that re "Yes," replied argue the growth abb, solemnly "it vivaciou= s is very affecting." "Mercds box came again, and she overcome bubbl= e store found him so altered       &nb= sp;  
Dants had not been deceived--he blunt large had blindly slew reached the = f"But such services as these sanguineous level fight might eventually inv= olve him with       
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(localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by www.implementers.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6BE03A02109; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 06:45:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <45E443FF.4080006@acm.org> Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 06:45:19 -0800 From: Marc Petit-Huguenin User-Agent: Icedove 1.5.0.9 (X11/20061220) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Aki Niemi Subject: Re: [Sip] RE: Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) References: <002401c75605$303d56e0$92d68640@cornfed> <1467BD05-A314-42C6-8B01-C99ABA4E92F5@cisco.com> <45E3F2C8.8090201@nokia.com> In-Reply-To: <45E3F2C8.8090201@nokia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Cc: ext Cullen Jennings , SIP , "Frank W. Miller" X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Aki Niemi wrote: > ext Cullen Jennings wrote: >>> TCP was given less coverage initially but >>> has become more important recently primarily (from what I've observed) >>> because it behaves "better" with NATs. >> Just as a bit of point of which works better .... if you and I are both >> behind NATs and we want to have SIP flow between us without using a >> relay outside our NATs, SIP over UDP works in a much higher percentage >> of NATs that TCP. > > How you would be able to establish such a UDP flow without some > rendezvous point in the public Internet is also very interesting indeed. A rendezvous point must be used to find the destination, but after this a direct "connection" can be used. Here's an example: UA NAT Proxy Proxy NAT UA | : | | : | | INVITE | | : | |------------->| INVITE | : | | : |------------->| INVITE: | | : | |------------->| | : | | :200 I | | : | 200 I |<-------------| | : 200 I |<-------------| : | |<-------------| | : | | ACK : | | : | |------------------------------------------->| . . . . . . . . . . . . | : | | : BYE | |<-------------------------------------------| | 200 B: | | : | |------------------------------------------->| | : | | : | -- Marc Petit-Huguenin [ ] Home: marc@petit-huguenin.org [RFC1855-compliant space for rent ] Work: marc@8x8.com [ ] _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 27 11:21:53 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HM54G-0005JH-Lt; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:20:44 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HM54D-0005IO-KD for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:20:41 -0500 Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com ([171.68.10.86]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HM54C-0001X8-72 for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:20:41 -0500 Received: from sj-dkim-6.cisco.com ([171.68.10.81]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 27 Feb 2007 08:20:39 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,226,1170662400"; d="scan'208"; a="43146233:sNHT605862360" Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com (sj-core-3.cisco.com [171.68.223.137]) by sj-dkim-6.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1RGKdZS001404; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 08:20:39 -0800 Received: from [192.168.4.177] (sjc-fluffy-vpn1.cisco.com [10.25.236.82]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with SMTP id l1RGKchp007586; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 08:20:38 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <45E3F2C8.8090201@nokia.com> References: <002401c75605$303d56e0$92d68640@cornfed> <1467BD05-A314-42C6-8B01-C99ABA4E92F5@cisco.com> <45E3F2C8.8090201@nokia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <1051C656-876D-408D-84E5-94943761774F@cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Cullen Jennings Subject: Re: [Sip] RE: Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 08:20:03 -0800 To: Aki Niemi X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=3928; t=1172593239; x=1173457239; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim6002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fluffy@cisco.com; z=From:=20Cullen=20Jennings=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[Sip]=20RE=3A=20Followup=3A=20Pool=20on=20Update=20of =20outbound=20(retitled=20thread) |Sender:=20; bh=ycPSXtogwxNXPq8urVgNwasfxppWtAt6Gh9jZwjDrdQ=; b=BRnofGqK6d0LJR9XVdNWWjEIUSBzgSrhORdO0nZvX2rn1YPP+GFQYMYLvQwfA/6UVz81hnhE 2xVsiYb53ncIRvZiWUoDwJkMJ3GHeBzjgVlnhtp00SRlEjUzhly+VmEG; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-6; header.From=fluffy@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim6002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 34d35111647d654d033d58d318c0d21a Cc: SIP X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org On Feb 27, 2007, at 12:58 AM, Aki Niemi wrote: > > ext Cullen Jennings wrote: >>> TCP was given less coverage initially but >>> has become more important recently primarily (from what I've >>> observed) >>> because it behaves "better" with NATs. >> >> Just as a bit of point of which works better .... if you and I are >> both >> behind NATs and we want to have SIP flow between us without using a >> relay outside our NATs, SIP over UDP works in a much higher >> percentage >> of NATs that TCP. > > How you would be able to establish such a UDP flow without some > rendezvous point in the public Internet is also very interesting > indeed. agreed - there would be something outside the NATs, but it would be involved in helping initiate the connection and would not need to be involved after the connection was formed > >> This is a big topic for the P2PSIP group. But I think >> this actually does illustrate your point in some ways - different >> transports have different characteristics and SIP allows >> deployments to >> choose the transport that meets their needs. > > What you are basically saying is that since UDP works better in > this P2P > scenario, application protocols should steer away from using TCP and > instead use UDP and then build the TCP state machine into the > application protocol itself. Why is it so hard to admit that this is > just a bad idea? Isn't it a clear layer violation as well? > > Perhaps this is something that should really be solved for all > protocols > and not specifically for SIP. This would actually be a good case > for the > generality over efficiency principle. > > Cheers, > Aki Aki, I did not mean to say that at all. What I was saying is that the blanket claim that TCP works better through NATs and thus we should all use TCP is not 100% true. Some time TCP works better through NATs some times it does not. I think that using TCP is a good idea in the SIP case - and, for me, the one strongest argument for why it is a good idea to use TCP is that: it is an efficiently and reliably way to transport large chunks of data - and SIP message are getting large. Many of the other arguments that get brought up I don't find as compelling. Specifically thought I feel their is some truth to all the following, for me they seem to have two sides or not be all that compelling. 1) SIP over TCP works better through nats - sometimes, sometimes not 2) SIP over TCP is easier to implement - they both have issues and they are a drop in the bucket of the overall complexity and work of doing a sip device 3) SIP over UDP causes congestion collapse - it does have an exponential backoff and the elephant under the rug is not the SIP but the fixed rate media 4) SIP over TCP is more scalable - in theory this is true, in practice as of today it is clearly not true given what is available for deployers to use. Again, I expect this to change over time but I think we are not there yet. 5) SIP over TCP is more reliable - various people have various high reliability schemes some work better with one protocol or the other - as the SIP wg defines ways to do high reliability, this may become less of an issue As I said, I don't find the 1-5 really all that compelling on the UDP/ TCP debate one way or the other. I'm a fan of moving towards TCP but not until it actually practical and I want us to move for the right reasons and not just the grass is greener on the other side. At the last few IETF, I've mumbled that if people are serious about this, writing a draft wold be the thing to do. Cullen PS - I do wonder at times about the the implications for mobile networks of encouraging large (like 10k) and very large (like 100k) SIP messages. _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 27 13:38:06 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HM7BE-0007kN-RL; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 13:36:04 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HM7BD-0007ec-Sd for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 13:36:03 -0500 Received: from shaman.nostrum.com ([72.232.15.10] helo=nostrum.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HM7BC-00022o-JK for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 13:36:03 -0500 Received: from [172.17.1.65] (vicuna-alt.estacado.net [75.53.54.121]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l1RIa0BK083973 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 27 Feb 2007 12:36:01 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) In-Reply-To: <1051C656-876D-408D-84E5-94943761774F@cisco.com> References: <002401c75605$303d56e0$92d68640@cornfed> <1467BD05-A314-42C6-8B01-C99ABA4E92F5@cisco.com> <45E3F2C8.8090201@nokia.com> <1051C656-876D-408D-84E5-94943761774F@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <4024935B-3624-49DD-8D0F-E17E6E15AEBF@nostrum.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Robert Sparks Subject: Re: [Sip] RE: Followup: Pool on Update of outbound (retitled thread) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 12:35:59 -0600 To: Cullen Jennings X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Received-SPF: pass (nostrum.com: 75.53.54.121 is authenticated by a trusted mechanism) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Cc: SIP LIST X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org > As I said, I don't find the 1-5 really all that compelling on the > UDP/TCP debate one way or the other. I'm a fan of moving towards > TCP but not until it actually practical and I want us to move for > the right reasons and not just the grass is greener on the other > side. At the last few IETF, I've mumbled that if people are serious > about this, writing a draft wold be the thing to do. > > Cullen This touches a concern I have that's been growing throughout this thread. There seems to be some subset of the discussion that is shaped more or less like "If we can forbid SIP over UDP, all these bad things go away and the world is a much better place" where it would be more appropriate to say "If we can forbid SIP over UDP, these problems go away, and we'll have to focus more on these other problems now". Deprecating SIP over UDP is not a magic-bullet/low-hanging-fruit/duh- why-didn't-we-do-this-years-ago proposition. If it were, we _would_ have done it already (actually, the implementers would have done it for us and we'd be playing catchup). That said, I'll stand up next to Cullen here. I'm a fan of moving away from the current UDP state machines. I think there _are_ the right reasons and we need to really understand them before pulling any rugs out from under anything. I'm a fan of moving towards TCP because it's the most sensical option available to us. Any transition we facilitate will have to be gradual if it's going to be meaningful. RjS _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From martac217@luboclima.e.telefonica.net Tue Feb 27 18:38:47 2007 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMBuB-000601-Il for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 18:38:47 -0500 Received: from p54bd59f3.dip.t-dialin.net ([84.189.89.243] helo=p54BD6A1C.dip.t-dialin.net) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMBtw-0005RX-PY for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 18:38:47 -0500 Received: from ([130.113.81.190]) by with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 28 Feb 2007 00:38:53 +0100 Message-ID: <001301c75ac8$5f2f1a70$00000000@zeise6zwpjgnbc> From: "martac Karden" To: sip-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: publicity vice Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 00:38:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C75AD0.C0F38270" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 3.9 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 1ba0ec39a747b7612d6a8ae66d1a873c ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C75AD0.C0F38270 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0010_01C75AD0.C0F38270" ------=_NextPart_001_0010_01C75AD0.C0F38270 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Waited sold item, internal card reader invalid? 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(helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMCjZ-0002tm-Sz; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:31:53 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMCjY-0002te-PY for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:31:52 -0500 Received: from zrtps0kn.nortel.com ([47.140.192.55]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMCjX-0001aw-DH for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:31:52 -0500 Received: from zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com (zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com [47.103.123.71]) by zrtps0kn.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id l1S0VmR07869 for ; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:31:49 -0500 (EST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 18:31:42 -0600 Message-ID: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F5DF88C@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <1051C656-876D-408D-84E5-94943761774F@cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: draft-ietfsip-sips Open Issues: Derived Sessions Thread-Index: Acdai52WtC8XwrrCTY6ndWtwQXBTYwAQK3lg References: <002401c75605$303d56e0$92d68640@cornfed> <1467BD05-A314-42C6-8B01-C99ABA4E92F5@cisco.com> <45E3F2C8.8090201@nokia.com> <1051C656-876D-408D-84E5-94943761774F@cisco.com> From: "Francois Audet" To: "SIP" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 Subject: [Sip] draft-ietfsip-sips Open Issues: Derived Sessions X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org I'd like to close on the few remaining issues in the To-Do list of draft-ietf-sip-sips-01, as=20 described in Annex B. Most of the issues in Annex B are related to how to treat "derived sessions" where there is a missmatch between the URI scheme used by the different sessions. For example, say a session started with SIPS, and then a REFER is sent using a Refer-to URI that points to a sip sheme. A similar issue could occur with third party call control. I am reluctant to write ultra precise procedures attempting to cover all prossible problems that=20 could happen on this issue, because it just seems that it would be too complicated and arcane to explain. Rather, I would propose that I write some general guidelines on the principle of not downgrading security by allowing a derived session to effectively downgrade from SIPS to SIP. And then, I'd add an example or two of common cases. For example, a REFER in a session using SIPS should not point to a Refer-To that is SIP. The UAS=20 that receives such a request should either 1) Warn the user about the downgrade and as for persmission to accept it (similar to text alreay=20 in RFC 3515) 2) Reject it, probably with 403 "Forbidden". Do people agree with this approach? Suggestions? _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 27 19:50:42 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMD1E-0004xf-5c; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:50:08 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMD1C-0004xR-Vc for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:50:06 -0500 Received: from zcars04e.nortel.com ([47.129.242.56]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMD1A-0004Le-NV for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:50:06 -0500 Received: from zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com (zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com [47.103.123.71]) by zcars04e.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id l1S0fkf02046; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:41:46 -0500 (EST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 18:49:53 -0600 Message-ID: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F5DF8BB@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-sip-sips Open Issues: GRUU Thread-Index: Acda0luyOmozFfmgSqmSIaeZDqA+tg== From: "Francois Audet" To: "SIP" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Cc: Subject: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips Open Issues: GRUU X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Another open issue in Appendix B of draft-ietf-sip-sips is related to GRUU. It says: For GRUU, how should the UAC react if the returned GRUU is SIP but the To was SIPS? How should the UAC react if the returned GRUU is SIPS but the To was SIP? In other words, what if the registrar returns a GRUU with the wrong scheme in the response to REGISTER. I can think of the following: 1 - UAC uses the GRUU anyways, BUT replace the scheme with the proper=20 scheme in all usages of GRUU. 2 - UAC behaves as if it did not receive a GRUU at all. I'm tempted to believe that option 1 is better. Any opinions? Other ideas? _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 27 19:52:18 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMD2b-0006T9-UJ; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:51:33 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMD2a-0006S5-Jl for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:51:32 -0500 Received: from nylon.softarmor.com ([66.135.38.164]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMD2Y-0004Xn-Tj for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:51:32 -0500 Received: from [64.101.172.114] ([64.101.172.114]) (authenticated bits=0) by nylon.softarmor.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l1RNvFfj014035 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 27 Feb 2007 17:57:16 -0600 In-Reply-To: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F5DF88C@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> References: <002401c75605$303d56e0$92d68640@cornfed> <1467BD05-A314-42C6-8B01-C99ABA4E92F5@cisco.com> <45E3F2C8.8090201@nokia.com> <1051C656-876D-408D-84E5-94943761774F@cisco.com> <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F5DF88C@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dean Willis Subject: Re: [Sip] draft-ietfsip-sips Open Issues: Derived Sessions Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 18:51:20 -0600 To: "Francois Audet" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Cc: SIP X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org On Feb 27, 2007, at 6:31 PM, Francois Audet wrote: > > For example, a REFER in a session using SIPS should not point to a > Refer-To that is SIP. The UAS > that receives such a request should either > 1) Warn the user about the downgrade and as for persmission to > accept it > (similar to text alreay > in RFC 3515) > 2) Reject it, probably with 403 "Forbidden". > > Do people agree with this approach? > Suggestions? HTTP certainly allows an HTTPS web page to redirect to or reference an HTTP page. There are lots of legitimate use cases. But is is conventional for the browser to warn the user. -- Dean _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 27 19:56:24 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMD6s-0004FI-JH; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:55:58 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMD6q-0004F8-V7 for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:55:56 -0500 Received: from nylon.softarmor.com ([66.135.38.164]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMD6p-0005Ce-L7 for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:55:56 -0500 Received: from [64.101.172.114] ([64.101.172.114]) (authenticated bits=0) by nylon.softarmor.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l1S01eeT014145 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 27 Feb 2007 18:01:41 -0600 In-Reply-To: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F5DF8BB@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> References: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F5DF8BB@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <74086B5E-413D-4394-857B-3D4952BE2176@softarmor.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dean Willis Subject: Re: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips Open Issues: GRUU Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 18:55:45 -0600 To: "Francois Audet" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Cc: SIP X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org On Feb 27, 2007, at 6:49 PM, Francois Audet wrote: > Another open issue in Appendix B of draft-ietf-sip-sips is related to > GRUU. > > It says: > > For GRUU, how should the UAC react if the returned GRUU is SIP but > the To was SIPS? How should the UAC react if the returned GRUU is > SIPS but the To was SIP? > > In other words, what if the registrar returns a GRUU with the wrong > scheme > in the response to REGISTER. > > I can think of the following: > > 1 - UAC uses the GRUU anyways, BUT replace the scheme with the proper > scheme in all usages of GRUU. > > 2 - UAC behaves as if it did not receive a GRUU at all. > > I'm tempted to believe that option 1 is better. > > Any opinions? Other ideas? > 3rd alternative: UAC uses the GRUU as it was returned, but warns the user. Use case: You need a GRUU, but the server just can't knit you a sips: GRUU. -- Dean _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 27 20:07:44 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMDHD-0002b0-Rz; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 20:06:39 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMDHC-0002ZJ-V2 for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 20:06:38 -0500 Received: from zrtps0kp.nortel.com ([47.140.192.56]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMDH9-0007Gm-Td for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 20:06:38 -0500 Received: from zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com (zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com [47.103.123.71]) by zrtps0kp.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id l1S16XU03900; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 20:06:33 -0500 (EST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips Open Issues: GRUU Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:06:32 -0600 Message-ID: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F5DF8DF@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <74086B5E-413D-4394-857B-3D4952BE2176@softarmor.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips Open Issues: GRUU Thread-Index: Acda0zZ5YTV7ygI9S4WMb6o1ojw1XQAADeaQ References: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F5DF8BB@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> <74086B5E-413D-4394-857B-3D4952BE2176@softarmor.com> From: "Francois Audet" To: "Dean Willis" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Cc: SIP X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org =20 > 3rd alternative: UAC uses the GRUU as it was returned, but=20 > warns the user. And the only people who will understand the error message will be IETF SIP WG participants (and probably not even all of us). Unlike a REFER scenario, this seems way to arcane. Assuming the warning was more of the "can't do security" variety, (instead of GRUU specifically), it would then need to be accompanied by a wholesale downgrade to sip. So in my mind, the UAC would have to re-REGISTER (if acceptable). Is that what you mean? I find this kind of scary: wouln't the REGISTER then just reject the REGISTER altogether with 416 "Unsuported scheme" which would then trigger the client to re-REGISTER using sip? > Use case: You need a GRUU, but the server just can't knit you=20 > a sips: GRUU. >From a routing perspective, a sip GRUU and a sips GRUU point to the=20 same resource. So what do you really mean by server can't knit a GRUU? Keep in mind this is a case where server accepts the SIPS in the To, From and Contact, but nevertheless chooses a sip GRUU. I'm scratching my head trying to figure out why this is a valid scenario. And if it is, why rejecting the REGISTER wouldn't be better. _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 27 20:09:30 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMDJy-0003oU-8Z; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 20:09:30 -0500 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMDJx-0003oN-Ne for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 20:09:29 -0500 Received: from rtp-iport-2.cisco.com ([64.102.122.149]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMDJu-0001gB-KB for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 20:09:29 -0500 Received: from rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com ([64.102.121.159]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 27 Feb 2007 20:09:26 -0500 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,227,1170651600"; d="scan'208"; a="114633345:sNHT47939952" Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-core-1.cisco.com [64.102.124.12]) by rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1S19Qdg030793; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 20:09:26 -0500 Received: from xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-211.cisco.com [64.102.31.102]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l1S199VX017550; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 20:09:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.38]) by xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 27 Feb 2007 20:09:20 -0500 Received: from [161.44.174.118] ([161.44.174.118]) by xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 27 Feb 2007 20:09:19 -0500 Message-ID: <45E4D63F.8050602@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 20:09:19 -0500 From: Paul Kyzivat User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Francois Audet Subject: Re: [Sip] draft-ietfsip-sips Open Issues: Derived Sessions References: <002401c75605$303d56e0$92d68640@cornfed> <1467BD05-A314-42C6-8B01-C99ABA4E92F5@cisco.com> <45E3F2C8.8090201@nokia.com> <1051C656-876D-408D-84E5-94943761774F@cisco.com> <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F5DF88C@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F5DF88C@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Feb 2007 01:09:19.0594 (UTC) FILETIME=[12F52CA0:01C75AD5] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=2149; t=1172624966; x=1173488966; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=pkyzivat@cisco.com; z=From:=20Paul=20Kyzivat=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[Sip]=20draft-ietfsip-sips=20Open=20Issues=3A=20Deriv ed=20Sessions |Sender:=20 |To:=20Francois=20Audet=20; bh=NgZZ5ZsAu2mrH5UTYXwlNT4TUyJUNWBUb1LSSXKUgPE=; b=oM1mRCZTcNHqmwNNFPkeLwIcLqnF9yba3ezjdWNBineYeRLbuFsGrpcQ6Pi7HngZFq+nv2fx uKCqgKAtTcFWkW38swX5/KMzHXT8hDKLoKrABcnpFhfm6Rmj5fYb81OA; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-2; header.From=pkyzivat@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim2001 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 82c9bddb247d9ba4471160a9a865a5f3 Cc: SIP X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Francois, I agree as long as you get the wording right, which I think you are on track to do. The fundamental thing is that a session to a UA never be downgraded *from what the user of the UA thought it to be* without the express permission of that user (directly or via configured policy.) Session here is a bit loose, since we are talking about replacing one dialog with another while thinking of it as a single session. Paul Francois Audet wrote: > I'd like to close on the few remaining issues in the To-Do list of > draft-ietf-sip-sips-01, as > described in Annex B. > > Most of the issues in Annex B are related to how to treat "derived > sessions" where there is a > missmatch between the URI scheme used by the different sessions. > > For example, say a session started with SIPS, and then a REFER is sent > using a Refer-to URI that > points to a sip sheme. A similar issue could occur with third party call > control. > > I am reluctant to write ultra precise procedures attempting to cover all > prossible problems that > could happen on this issue, because it just seems that it would be too > complicated and arcane > to explain. > > Rather, I would propose that I write some general guidelines on the > principle of not downgrading > security by allowing a derived session to effectively downgrade from > SIPS to SIP. And then, I'd add > an example or two of common cases. > > For example, a REFER in a session using SIPS should not point to a > Refer-To that is SIP. The UAS > that receives such a request should either > 1) Warn the user about the downgrade and as for persmission to accept it > (similar to text alreay > in RFC 3515) > 2) Reject it, probably with 403 "Forbidden". > > Do people agree with this approach? > Suggestions? > > _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip > _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 27 22:35:45 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMFXa-0007PA-7t; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 22:31:42 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMFXY-0007O4-Gr for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 22:31:40 -0500 Received: from sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com ([171.71.176.72] helo=sj-iport-3.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMFXV-0002Kz-RA for sip@ietf.org; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 22:31:40 -0500 Received: from sj-dkim-7.cisco.com ([171.68.10.88]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 27 Feb 2007 19:31:38 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,227,1170662400"; d="scan'208"; a="467462408:sNHT58162290" Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com (sj-core-3.cisco.com [171.68.223.137]) by sj-dkim-7.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1S3Vbq2013090; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:31:37 -0800 Received: from dwingwxp ([10.32.240.194]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l1S3VUho008359; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:31:36 -0800 (PST) From: "Dan Wing" To: "'Cullen Jennings'" , "'Dean Willis'" , "'IETF SIP List'" Subject: RE: [Sip] Interest check: draft on certificate-based authentication Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:31:29 -0800 Message-ID: <069401c75ae8$f368c270$70a36b80@amer.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Thread-Index: AcdZW48Je57kq7rOQim57a2gEodIjgBjJfew DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=8293; t=1172633497; x=1173497497; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim7002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=dwing@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Dan=20Wing=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20[Sip]=20Interest=20check=3A=20draft=20on=20certificat e-based=20authentication |Sender:=20; bh=dW7VkO5rvmqoKOuBFJOwFfbl+KsLDpIknpVzPiRx1Wo=; b=InGKpF0HTyjePLZFl+PV1XawT2rgGIoqqBwesxH4tZuIqIxfMRNa0PaDrVvqIQogDYIZDI8T 1QBC6gf3Krc9tJ9bDDS5daBYpBtBdkCs8gbP0NkuthV0RbCXE6/J4ITK; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-7; header.From=dwing@cisco.com; dkim=pass (s ig from cisco.com/sjdkim7002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f884eb1d4ec5a230688d7edc526ea665 Cc: X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org > I agree that certificate based approach is useful. I am unconvinced > that there is a situation where it is both > > 1) you need to have a proxy between the UA that is > authenticating and the client it is authenticating to > > 2) there are no other huge security holes introduced by having the > middle proxy that is not trusted This certificate-based scheme isn't different from existing state-of-the-art (SIP Digest) in its model of trusting that first-hop SIP proxy or having a different proxy perform the registration functions. That is, if your first SIP proxy and your registrar are two different computers, those same two cases above exist with SIP Digest. > So - if there is a need for this, then I agree we should look at > something along these lines. Note that this WG is probably the wrong > place to design an HTTP authentication scheme that works with > untrusted intermediaries. > > If the intermediaries are not needed, then I think an approach where > the UA has to do outbound so that the proxy never forms a connection > to the UA could be used and in this case the UA could present a > certificate in the TLS handshake that identified the device. Folks > have been talking about this for several years but waiting for > outbound to get finished before starting it. Note that this *only* > works if you know that this certificate will not end up used in a > normal TLS situation because the certificate will have a > device name, > not a DNS or IP address in it thus the entanglement with outbound. -d > Cullen > > > On Feb 23, 2007, at 5:36 PM, Dan Wing wrote: > > > I agree that certificate-based authentication is useful, > and have been > > working a bit with CableLabs on this specification. > > > > As Matt points out HTTP doesn't involve multiple hops but existing > > deployed > > TLS offloaders do not provide back-end HTTP servers with > > information about > > the TLS session; thus being able to include the certificate > > authentication > > in HTTP itself would allow for usage with HTTP-over-TLS > (primarily to > > encrypt the transaction) and certificates to provide > application-level > > authentication (similar to today's use of HTTP's existing Digest > > and Basic > > authentication). > > > > So I support Steffen's idea, but I don't see a suitable APP > working > > group to > > standardize this for HTTP. The immediate need is for SIP. > Perhaps > > it can > > be done in SIP and if there is sufficient interest in the HTTP > > community > > they can adopt a similar (or identical) technique as whatever we > > create for > > SIP? > > > > -d > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Matt Lepinski [mailto:mlepinski@bbn.com] > >> Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 7:38 AM > >> To: Dean Willis > >> Cc: IETF SIP List; steffen.fries@siemens.com > >> Subject: Re: [Sip] Interest check: draft on certificate-based > >> authentication > >> > >> I agree that the approach taken in the document is reasonable > >> and that > >> certificate-based authentication over multiple hops is a > problem that > >> SIP should solve. > >> > >> However, I disagree with Steffen's suggestion that the work be > >> incorporated into HTTP directly. I believe the need for > >> certificate-based authentication over multiple hops is a more > >> pressing > >> issue for SIP than for HTTP. Therefore, I think we will > >> arrive at a good > >> solution sooner if we solve the problem in this working > group than if > >> first try to solve it first for HTTP and then map the HTTP > >> solution back > >> to SIP. (By contrast, in the case of digest authentication, a > >> reasonable > >> mechanism already existed within HTTP and therefore it > made sense to > >> adapt the existing solution to SIP.) If we produce a good > multi-hop, > >> certificate-based authentication mechanism for SIP and > >> someone believes > >> that it is also useful for HTTP, then there's nothing to > >> prevent the SIP > >> solution from later being adapted to work with HTTP. > >> > >> - Matt Lepinski :-> > >> > >> Fries, Steffen wrote: > >> > >>> Hi, > >>> > >>> the draft addresses certificate based authentication over > >> multiple hops, > >>> were certificate based authentication in TLS does not help. > >> As this may > >>> not only be a problem in SIP scenarios, it would be > >> beneficial to have > >>> such an authentication enhancement within HTTP instead of > >> SIP. As HTTP > >>> digest authentication is currently used in SIP, an enhanced HTTP > >>> authentication utilizing certificates may be used in SIP > as well. So > >>> from my point of view the draft sounds interesting, but may have a > >>> broader scope by incorporating it into HTTP directly. The > >> draft already > >>> raises this question in the discussion section. > >>> > >>> Ciao > >>> Steffen > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: Dean Willis [mailto:dean.willis@softarmor.com] > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 11:19 PM > >>>> To: SIP IETF > >>>> Subject: [Sip] Interest check: draft on certificate-based > >>>> authentication > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> The relatively new draft: > >>>> > >>>> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/sip/draft-dotson-sip-certificate-auth- > >>>> sol-00.txt > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> attempts to resolve the requirements raised in: > >>>> > >>>> http://tools.ietf.org/wg/sip/draft-dotson-sip-certificate-au > >> th-02.txt > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> As solutions drafts go, this one is substantially incomplete (for > >>>> example, the Security section is basically nonexistent). > >> But I think > >>>> the general approach being taken looks reasonable, and that the > >>>> problem being solved is a real problem that needs to be > >> solved. The > >>>> very real issues with digest authentication are pretty well > >>>> understood, and this sort of technique looks like it will > >> provide a > >>>> very useful alternative. > >>>> > >>>> So I'd like to ask the group to take a look at these drafts > >>>> and start > >>>> thinking about what we, as a working group, need to do in > >> this area. > >>>> We're perhaps not ready to take on new work at this time, but I > >>>> expect we will be before too much longer. Is this a problem > >>>> we should > >>>> be addressing? > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Dean Willis > >>>> co-chair > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > >>>> This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > >>>> Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > >>>> Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the > application of sip > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > >>> This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > >>> Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > >>> Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the > application of sip > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > >> This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > >> Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > >> Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip > > _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From juninasi@omninote.com Wed Feb 28 00:45:43 2007 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMHdH-0007ka-NI for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 00:45:43 -0500 Received: from [124.129.81.115] (helo=jujumao) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMHdE-0008LM-Vu for sip-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 00:45:43 -0500 To: "mitchel jordana" Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 13:44:32 +0800 From: "abraham stanford" Sender: "abraham stanford" Subject: Meaning of OEM MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <4d2b01c75afb$855c5360$7351817c@jujumao> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_4C57_01C75B3E.8D8BFC50" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527 Priority: normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.9 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b7b9551d71acde901886cc48bfc088a6 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_4C57_01C75B3E.8D8BFC50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Office 2007 is available for enterprise users from November 30, 2006. 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------=_NextPart_000_4C57_01C75B3E.8D8BFC50-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 04:32:57 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HML7F-0003hs-IS; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 04:28:53 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HML7E-0003hE-69 for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 04:28:52 -0500 Received: from mailgate.siemenscomms.co.uk ([195.171.110.225] helo=bemg01.siemenscomms.co.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HML7C-00071R-MB for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 04:28:52 -0500 Received: from ntht207e.uksgcs.siemenscomms.co.uk ([137.223.247.82]) by siemenscomms.co.uk (PMDF V6.0-24 #40642) with ESMTP id <0JE60009O2BRZH@siemenscomms.co.uk> for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:28:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: by ntht207e.uksgcs.siemenscomms.co.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:28:39 +0000 Content-return: allowed Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:28:39 +0000 From: "Elwell, John" Subject: RE: [Sip] draft-ietfsip-sips Open Issues: Derived Sessions To: Paul Kyzivat , Francois Audet Message-id: <50B1CBA96870A34799A506B2313F26670B28F1C0@ntht201e.siemenscomms.co.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 287c806b254c6353fcb09ee0e53bbc5e Cc: SIP X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Francois, Paul, Don't forget that REFER can be used in a number of different ways, not all of which result in replacement of one dialog by another. In fact the semantics of REFER do NOT mean replace a dialog and it is up to the sender of the REFER request to clear down the old dialog if appropriate (e.g., on receiving a NOTIFY request indicating success of the referred request). Admittedly the particular case where a REFER request is sent on an INVITE-initiated dialog and causes a new INVITE-initiated dialog to be established will generally result in replacement of the original dialog, but REFER itself does not actually say that this must be so. One example of the use of REFER is with a method that does not form another INVITE-initiated dialog, e.g., method=SUBSCRIBE. Here it is arguable that the SUBSCRIBE request-URI can be completely decoupled from the security state of the existing dialog. Another use is sending REFER outside the context of a dialog. In such a case, I guess the REFER Request-URI could be SIPS and the Refer-To URI could be SIP, or vice versa. I support trying to put in some general words, rather than being over-prescriptive. However, please make sure the words are general enough to cover all REFER scenarios. Another related topic is Replaces. I would presume that an INVITE/Replaces request to a SIP URI would not be considered to match an existing INVITE-initiated dialog on the UA concerned that uses a SIPS URI as contact, or vice versa. Does this need spelling out? John > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Kyzivat [mailto:pkyzivat@cisco.com] > Sent: 28 February 2007 01:09 > To: Francois Audet > Cc: SIP > Subject: Re: [Sip] draft-ietfsip-sips Open Issues: Derived Sessions > > Francois, > > I agree as long as you get the wording right, which I think > you are on > track to do. > > The fundamental thing is that a session to a UA never be downgraded > *from what the user of the UA thought it to be* without the express > permission of that user (directly or via configured policy.) Session > here is a bit loose, since we are talking about replacing one dialog > with another while thinking of it as a single session. > > Paul > > Francois Audet wrote: > > I'd like to close on the few remaining issues in the To-Do list of > > draft-ietf-sip-sips-01, as > > described in Annex B. > > > > Most of the issues in Annex B are related to how to treat "derived > > sessions" where there is a > > missmatch between the URI scheme used by the different sessions. > > > > For example, say a session started with SIPS, and then a > REFER is sent > > using a Refer-to URI that > > points to a sip sheme. A similar issue could occur with > third party call > > control. > > > > I am reluctant to write ultra precise procedures attempting > to cover all > > prossible problems that > > could happen on this issue, because it just seems that it > would be too > > complicated and arcane > > to explain. > > > > Rather, I would propose that I write some general guidelines on the > > principle of not downgrading > > security by allowing a derived session to effectively downgrade from > > SIPS to SIP. And then, I'd add > > an example or two of common cases. > > > > For example, a REFER in a session using SIPS should not point to a > > Refer-To that is SIP. The UAS > > that receives such a request should either > > 1) Warn the user about the downgrade and as for persmission > to accept it > > (similar to text alreay > > in RFC 3515) > > 2) Reject it, probably with 403 "Forbidden". > > > > Do people agree with this approach? > > Suggestions? > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip > _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 05:41:47 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMMDh-0007K7-7T; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 05:39:37 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMMDf-0007D1-I9 for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 05:39:35 -0500 Received: from smtp-3.hut.fi ([130.233.228.93]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMMDc-0007a7-PF for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 05:39:35 -0500 Received: from localhost (putosiko.hut.fi [130.233.228.114]) by smtp-3.hut.fi (8.13.6/8.12.10) with ESMTP id l1SAcP4G027222; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 12:38:25 +0200 Received: from smtp-3.hut.fi ([130.233.228.93]) by localhost (putosiko.hut.fi [130.233.228.114]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 29013-14-6; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 12:38:25 +0200 (EET) Received: from mail.tml.hut.fi (mail.tml.hut.fi [130.233.47.34]) by smtp-3.hut.fi (8.13.6/8.12.10) with ESMTP id l1SAbowL026998; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 12:37:50 +0200 Received: from localhost (localhost.tml.hut.fi [127.0.0.1]) by mail.tml.hut.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56CF33A2CD7; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 12:37:50 +0200 (EET) Received: from mail.tml.hut.fi ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.tml.hut.fi [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04469-07; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 12:37:49 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost (tml-yp-4.tml.hut.fi [130.233.45.32]) by mail.tml.hut.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id 726D53A2CCC; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 12:37:49 +0200 (EET) Received: from t-110-gw.tml.hut.fi (t-110-gw.tml.hut.fi [130.233.45.45]) by horde.tml.hut.fi (Horde MIME library) with HTTP; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 12:37:49 +0200 Message-ID: <20070228123749.t9n0wtuo00444kwg@horde-intra.tml.hut.fi> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 12:37:49 +0200 From: sergiole@tml.hut.fi To: sip@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes"; format="flowed" Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) H3 (4.1.3) X-TML-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new-2.3.2-tml at tml.hut.fi X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64 (2004-01-11) on putosiko.hut.fi X-TKK-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new-2.1.2-hutcc at putosiko.hut.fi X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 Subject: [Sip] [draft-ietf-sip-outbound-07] Edge proxy mechanisms X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Hello, About draft-ietf-sip-outbound-07, I want to ask the following. Q-1) About the edge proxy mechanisms I read { 5.1. Processing Register Requests When an Edge Proxy receives a registration request with a reg-id header parameter in the Contact header field, it needs to determine if it (the edge proxy) will have to be visited for any subsequent requests sent to the user agent identified in the Contact header field, or not. } Because there is a " need to determine" then must be some cases that =20 "the edge proxy could not be visited again". So I do not understand in the text above why "the edge proxy could =20 not be visited again for any subsequent requests sent to the UAC in =20 the Contact header field". I can only imagine one situation. The edge proxy could notice that =20 the domain of the UAC registering (in Contact header field) could =20 imply that it (the edge proxy) is not going to be visited again due =20 that to reach that UAC in the future the edge proxy will be not =20 involved... Could you clarify the situation? Q-2) How can the edge proxy determine if it will have to be visited again? Regards, Sergio _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 09:06:56 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMPPm-0003i8-6F; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:04:18 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMPPk-0003i2-LV for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:04:16 -0500 Received: from rtp-iport-1.cisco.com ([64.102.122.148]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMPPj-0001IU-DJ for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:04:16 -0500 Received: from rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com ([64.102.121.158]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 28 Feb 2007 09:04:16 -0500 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,230,1170651600"; d="scan'208"; a="53779558:sNHT42757384" Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-core-1.cisco.com [64.102.124.12]) by rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1SE4FY0006009 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:04:15 -0500 Received: from xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-211.cisco.com [64.102.31.102]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l1SE4EVT001923 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:04:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.21]) by xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:04:14 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.104] ([10.86.241.21]) by xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:04:14 -0500 Message-ID: <45E58BDC.9000203@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:04:12 -0500 From: Jonathan Rosenberg User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050511 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF SIP List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Feb 2007 14:04:14.0166 (UTC) FILETIME=[53E1D760:01C75B41] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=763; t=1172671455; x=1173535455; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim1001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=jdrosen@cisco.com; z=From:=20Jonathan=20Rosenberg=20 |Subject:=20Updated=20acr-code=20draft |Sender:=20 |To:=20IETF=20SIP=20List=20; bh=SBNEG3ZasoDhggBbYJYpJAgv2uXuBcNCBRQ47JwfpT0=; b=lfAH3ehxxr8EWigkXrdGBHWSAt7aQ6S2iL9GliQ1rLU+l7ttj/7UxlTo2IhqqPl9DBdkQO2n Sw3D91I0s6oLg/TFpPseB9cQyHL4bryio4lCb18+H59DpGK91JJKIaSw; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-1; header.From=jdrosen@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim1001 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Subject: [Sip] Updated acr-code draft X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org I've submitted a minor update to acr-code which addresses some comments made by the chairs during proto writeup. Until it appears in the archives, you can pick it up at: http://www.jdrosen.net/papers/draft-ietf-sip-acr-code-04.txt Only real change is a clarification that the reason a UAC MUST NOT retry a request without anonymity after a 433, is that user preferences for anonymity would not be met. Thanks, Jonathan R. -- Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 600 Lanidex Plaza Cisco Fellow Parsippany, NJ 07054-2711 Cisco Systems jdrosen@cisco.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 http://www.cisco.com _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 09:42:40 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMQ00-0000MB-6u; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:41:44 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMPzy-0000E6-IM for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:41:42 -0500 Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com ([171.68.10.87]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMPzu-0005yU-5y for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:41:42 -0500 Received: from rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com ([64.102.121.159]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 28 Feb 2007 06:41:37 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,230,1170662400"; d="scan'208"; a="394781720:sNHT48916280" Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-core-1.cisco.com [64.102.124.12]) by rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1SEfaZn014196; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:41:36 -0500 Received: from xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-201.cisco.com [64.102.31.12]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l1SEfBVr010982; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:41:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.38]) by xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:41:30 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.104] ([10.86.241.21]) by xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:41:29 -0500 Message-ID: <45E59499.6060309@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:41:29 -0500 From: Jonathan Rosenberg User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050511 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: EKR Subject: Re: [Sip] Nit in draft-ietf-sip-gruu-11.txt References: <200702191932.l1JJW1Lm016558@dragon.ariadne.com> <86mz39vq6j.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> In-Reply-To: <86mz39vq6j.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Feb 2007 14:41:29.0919 (UTC) FILETIME=[887EACF0:01C75B46] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1836; t=1172673696; x=1173537696; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=jdrosen@cisco.com; z=From:=20Jonathan=20Rosenberg=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[Sip]=20Nit=20in=20draft-ietf-sip-gruu-11.txt |Sender:=20 |To:=20EKR=20; bh=otoSJ8y9HBeTYAlyaef54bZuaLDHzcUmebpKkHgsVpM=; b=XY2eF1qzraSD+cScKwdeOw93EXc8PYQKA7dCGqfScgIkZV6kYSdhUxH5V/PEnZl6wo76tY1Z 8Hn3JukokSxq8j7g9XBkaNNv8GVIpi1qa2bMcHpAqcp6coTZvIN7mjHo; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-2; header.From=jdrosen@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim2001 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 Cc: sip@ietf.org X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org To be clear, the IV itself is not included in the hash, right? Its merely used to seed the process? -Jonathan R. Eric Rescorla wrote: > Dale.Worley@comcast.net writes: > > >>There's a nit in draft-ietf-sip-gruu-11.txt: In Appendix A, it reads: >> >> When the first contact with a specific instance ID is registered, the >> proxy generates a fresh initialization vector (IV) I. It also notes >> the wallclock time (W) and stores this as part of the registration. >> When the registrar wishes to create a new temporary GRUU, it >> computes: >> >> EA = E(K_e, AOR || " " || instance_ID || W || T1 || T2 || .. || Tn) >> >> using initialization vector I where || indicates concatenation, and >> T1, T2, and so on represent the current expiration times (measured in >> >>But the "initialization vector I" does not appear in the computation >>of EA. I suspect something is missing from the concatenation that is >>the second argument of E(). > > > It's not missing. The text says "using initialization vector I". > AFAICT common practice is not to have the IV be an explicit argument > when you represent encryption. > > -Ekr > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip > -- Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 600 Lanidex Plaza Cisco Fellow Parsippany, NJ 07054-2711 Cisco Systems jdrosen@cisco.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 http://www.cisco.com _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 09:47:28 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMQ4o-0001O2-1O; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:46:42 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMQ4m-0001Nx-Et for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:46:40 -0500 Received: from sj-iport-1-in.cisco.com ([171.71.176.70] helo=sj-iport-1.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMQ4k-0006oI-RW for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:46:40 -0500 Received: from rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com ([64.102.121.158]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 28 Feb 2007 06:46:38 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,230,1170662400"; d="scan'208"; a="764839572:sNHT51167832" Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-core-1.cisco.com [64.102.124.12]) by rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1SEkbg4024201; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:46:37 -0500 Received: from xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-211.cisco.com [64.102.31.102]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l1SEkSVx012230; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:46:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.21]) by xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:46:32 -0500 Received: from [161.44.174.118] ([161.44.174.118]) by xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:46:32 -0500 Message-ID: <45E595C7.1010505@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:46:31 -0500 From: Paul Kyzivat User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Elwell, John" Subject: Re: [Sip] draft-ietfsip-sips Open Issues: Derived Sessions References: <50B1CBA96870A34799A506B2313F26670B28F1C0@ntht201e.siemenscomms.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <50B1CBA96870A34799A506B2313F26670B28F1C0@ntht201e.siemenscomms.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Feb 2007 14:46:32.0338 (UTC) FILETIME=[3CC02720:01C75B47] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=5044; t=1172673997; x=1173537997; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim1001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=pkyzivat@cisco.com; z=From:=20Paul=20Kyzivat=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[Sip]=20draft-ietfsip-sips=20Open=20Issues=3A=20Deriv ed=20Sessions |Sender:=20 |To:=20=22Elwell,=20John=22=20; bh=f3RyfhHNCcydtyuBpOLGECTKqrfQR3DfVgft8h/FH2w=; b=L98ghnhx9XQMhA6/se/RgaEYiv5dpki1bDw/KjlT1WPO/51ExSiP7mwTlp0RQbxUhnwILt8Y zF0cgO+byGWnspHXSX2DEaRo+G+lhdT4qZ1diq6moX5mhegrOn7L0Fn3; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-1; header.From=pkyzivat@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim1001 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 093efd19b5f651b2707595638f6c4003 Cc: SIP , Francois Audet X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org John, I agree that those cases when REFER is used to replace one session with another are a subset of the total set of uses for REFER. In responding to Francois I was only considering that subset. I do think that the parties involved know this is the case. Certainly when the REFER results in an INVITE/Replaces, both the sender and the recipient know this. There may indeed be more that can be said, still in a general way, about other uses of REFER. I don't know if we want this draft to attempt that. I suspect not. Paul Elwell, John wrote: > Francois, Paul, > > Don't forget that REFER can be used in a number of different ways, not all > of which result in replacement of one dialog by another. In fact the > semantics of REFER do NOT mean replace a dialog and it is up to the sender > of the REFER request to clear down the old dialog if appropriate (e.g., on > receiving a NOTIFY request indicating success of the referred request). > Admittedly the particular case where a REFER request is sent on an > INVITE-initiated dialog and causes a new INVITE-initiated dialog to be > established will generally result in replacement of the original dialog, but > REFER itself does not actually say that this must be so. > > One example of the use of REFER is with a method that does not form another > INVITE-initiated dialog, e.g., method=SUBSCRIBE. Here it is arguable that > the SUBSCRIBE request-URI can be completely decoupled from the security > state of the existing dialog. > > Another use is sending REFER outside the context of a dialog. In such a > case, I guess the REFER Request-URI could be SIPS and the Refer-To URI could > be SIP, or vice versa. > > I support trying to put in some general words, rather than being > over-prescriptive. However, please make sure the words are general enough to > cover all REFER scenarios. > > Another related topic is Replaces. I would presume that an INVITE/Replaces > request to a SIP URI would not be considered to match an existing > INVITE-initiated dialog on the UA concerned that uses a SIPS URI as contact, > or vice versa. Does this need spelling out? > > John > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Paul Kyzivat [mailto:pkyzivat@cisco.com] >> Sent: 28 February 2007 01:09 >> To: Francois Audet >> Cc: SIP >> Subject: Re: [Sip] draft-ietfsip-sips Open Issues: Derived Sessions >> >> Francois, >> >> I agree as long as you get the wording right, which I think >> you are on >> track to do. >> >> The fundamental thing is that a session to a UA never be downgraded >> *from what the user of the UA thought it to be* without the express >> permission of that user (directly or via configured policy.) Session >> here is a bit loose, since we are talking about replacing one dialog >> with another while thinking of it as a single session. >> >> Paul >> >> Francois Audet wrote: >>> I'd like to close on the few remaining issues in the To-Do list of >>> draft-ietf-sip-sips-01, as >>> described in Annex B. >>> >>> Most of the issues in Annex B are related to how to treat "derived >>> sessions" where there is a >>> missmatch between the URI scheme used by the different sessions. >>> >>> For example, say a session started with SIPS, and then a >> REFER is sent >>> using a Refer-to URI that >>> points to a sip sheme. A similar issue could occur with >> third party call >>> control. >>> >>> I am reluctant to write ultra precise procedures attempting >> to cover all >>> prossible problems that >>> could happen on this issue, because it just seems that it >> would be too >>> complicated and arcane >>> to explain. >>> >>> Rather, I would propose that I write some general guidelines on the >>> principle of not downgrading >>> security by allowing a derived session to effectively downgrade from >>> SIPS to SIP. And then, I'd add >>> an example or two of common cases. >>> >>> For example, a REFER in a session using SIPS should not point to a >>> Refer-To that is SIP. The UAS >>> that receives such a request should either >>> 1) Warn the user about the downgrade and as for persmission >> to accept it >>> (similar to text alreay >>> in RFC 3515) >>> 2) Reject it, probably with 403 "Forbidden". >>> >>> Do people agree with this approach? >>> Suggestions? >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip >>> This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol >>> Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip >>> Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip >> This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol >> Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip >> Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip >> > _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 09:50:30 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMQ8E-0003z0-Sp; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:50:14 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMQ8D-0003yu-D1 for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:50:13 -0500 Received: from c-69-181-78-47.hsd1.ca.comcast.net ([69.181.78.47] helo=delta.rtfm.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMQ8A-00077c-4b for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:50:13 -0500 Received: by delta.rtfm.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id DBA321CC29; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 06:49:14 -0800 (PST) To: Jonathan Rosenberg Subject: Re: [Sip] Nit in draft-ietf-sip-gruu-11.txt References: <200702191932.l1JJW1Lm016558@dragon.ariadne.com> <86mz39vq6j.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> <45E59499.6060309@cisco.com> From: EKR Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 06:49:14 -0800 In-Reply-To: <45E59499.6060309@cisco.com> (Jonathan Rosenberg's message of "Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:41:29 -0500") Message-ID: <86k5y2xrpx.fsf@delta.rtfm.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4.20 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Cc: sip@ietf.org X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: EKR List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Jonathan Rosenberg writes: > To be clear, the IV itself is not included in the hash, right? Its > merely used to seed the process? Well, it's transitively included in the hash because we're going to MAC EA. That said, there's a bit of a race condition here because draft-rescorla-stateless-tokens-00 defines a generalized version of this stateless token technique. It may be best to simply define GRUU as using that technique. -Ekr _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 10:11:26 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMQQl-0004dZ-TC; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:09:24 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMQQZ-0004Kd-H2; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:09:12 -0500 Received: from expint.psytechnics.com ([217.33.106.234]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMQKJ-0008Jy-1D; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:02:44 -0500 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message Importance: normal Priority: normal MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1896 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 15:03:26 -0000 Message-ID: <257B18BFF522214E92EB52F3478B014E094688@psy01exch.intra.psytechnics.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Perceptual objective media quality reporting thread-index: AcdbSZlLw9qRfvsQSU61gayfTs285Q== From: "Ravi Raviraj" To: , , X-Spam-Score: 0.4 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b6657e60309a1317174c9db2ae5f227 Cc: Subject: [Sip] Perceptual objective media quality reporting X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1896936064==" Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1896936064== Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75B49.9952ED7C" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75B49.9952ED7C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Over the last few years, a number of perceptual media quality objective measures and assessment techniques have been standardized by ITU-T. For example, MOS-LQO, MOS-CQO, etc. Each one of these parameters could have number of variations like narrow-band/wide-band, electrical/acoustical, full reference/no-reference, audio/video, etc. When applied within a network end-point, each media direction (ingress/egress) could have one or more of these values associated with it. We need a way to report these values efficiently without any ambiguity. These MOS values could be sent/distributed as perceptual objective quality SIP events. In this way, all the advantages of SIP like mobility, etc. will be pulled in. =20 I would like to propose a work/discussion item on an event package for this purpose. Even define/specify a quality reporting framework. Is there any interest out there? =20 I presume that, an event package work will be within SIPPING WG, where should we do the framework work? SIP/AVT? =20 Thanks. =20 Ravi. =20 This email and attachment are confidential. If you have received this = message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the = message from your computer. Psytechnics Ltd has taken steps to ensure = that this email is virus free but the recipient should take necessary = steps to make certain. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75B49.9952ED7C Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all,

Over the last few years, a number of = perceptual media quality objective measures and assessment techniques have been = standardized by ITU-T. For example, MOS-LQO, MOS-CQO, etc. Each one of these parameters = could have number of variations like narrow-band/wide-band, = electrical/acoustical, full reference/no-reference, audio/video, etc. When applied within a = network end-point, each media direction (ingress/egress) could have one or more = of these values associated with it. We need a way to report these values efficiently without any ambiguity. These MOS values could be = sent/distributed as perceptual objective quality SIP events. In this way, all the advantages = of SIP like mobility, etc. will be pulled in.

 

I would like to propose a work/discussion item = on an event package for this purpose. Even define/specify a quality reporting framework. Is there any interest out there?

 

I presume that, an event package work will be = within SIPPING WG, where should we do the framework work? = SIP/AVT?

 

Thanks.

 

Ravi.

 

This email and attachment are confidential. If you have received this = message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the = message from your computer. Psytechnics Ltd has taken steps to ensure = that this email is virus free but the recipient should take necessary = steps to make certain. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75B49.9952ED7C-- --===============1896936064== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --===============1896936064==-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 10:15:24 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMQW5-00085S-Ae; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:14:53 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMQW3-000853-Tq for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:14:51 -0500 Received: from sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com ([171.71.176.72] helo=sj-iport-3.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMQW1-0001cJ-8z for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:14:51 -0500 Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 28 Feb 2007 07:14:49 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,231,1170662400"; d="scan'208"; a="467568080:sNHT47803556" Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (sj-core-2.cisco.com [171.71.177.254]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1SFEmi4011705; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 07:14:48 -0800 Received: from xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-201.cisco.com [64.102.31.12]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l1SFEaHA023955; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 07:14:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.38]) by xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:14:35 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.104] ([10.86.241.21]) by xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:14:35 -0500 Message-ID: <45E59C5A.5000500@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:14:34 -0500 From: Jonathan Rosenberg User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050511 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: EKR Subject: Re: [Sip] Nit in draft-ietf-sip-gruu-11.txt References: <200702191932.l1JJW1Lm016558@dragon.ariadne.com> <86mz39vq6j.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> <45E59499.6060309@cisco.com> <86k5y2xrpx.fsf@delta.rtfm.com> In-Reply-To: <86k5y2xrpx.fsf@delta.rtfm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Feb 2007 15:14:35.0610 (UTC) FILETIME=[280F13A0:01C75B4B] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=2357; t=1172675688; x=1173539688; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim2002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=jdrosen@cisco.com; z=From:=20Jonathan=20Rosenberg=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[Sip]=20Nit=20in=20draft-ietf-sip-gruu-11.txt |Sender:=20; bh=jLuho3NQxsxDlPWMCNA1ZmFGISJUdmzZIeng+hfUHEo=; b=WKqwaD/4aTsLD6hByxFePyg11g0XrEfHRcZPSgV9fM6lx7hLI5ymWN0icTV6KyiNkLKCn2AR LglqgyIM+OtH8Tbd0Buxx91r7+os000TTuWbS1m4LoBhLksjZ7aUcnFu; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2; header.From=jdrosen@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim2002 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f60d0f7806b0c40781eee6b9cd0b2135 Cc: sip@ietf.org X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org This is a great draft, ekr. I think it will come in handy in lots of places. A couple of questions. Firstly, what is the current status on this? Are you going to push this through as an AD-sponsored individual? Or is it an IAB doc? Or for a WG? What is the timeline? Assuming it will be going forward, I think it would be fine to reference it. The reference can be informative since the entire appendix is an informational appendix on how to do this. This way GRUU won't block on it. So, what we'd need to do is restructure the text in that appendix to use your tokens draft. I *think* that all we need to do there is specify the format for the string S, which would be: AOR || " " || instance-ID || W || T1 || T2 || .. || Tn and then tell folks to use your draft to construct a state token. I think we'd ignore sequence numbers and timestamps; making these zero. The reason is that temp-gruu don't have a fixed expiration time, its linked to expiration of the contacts and thats why W is in the state itself. Similarly for sequence numbers; T1.. Tn form our sequence number as part of the state, not in the token itself. Do you agree? After the token is constructed, the user part becomes user-part = "GRUU" || BASE64(token) Is that right? If so I will draft some text for this right now and post it. I'm in the process of updating GRUU for the other main change we agreed, on how to invalidate temp-gruu on the client side. Thanks, Jonathan R. EKR wrote: > Jonathan Rosenberg writes: > >>To be clear, the IV itself is not included in the hash, right? Its >>merely used to seed the process? > > > Well, it's transitively included in the hash because we're going > to MAC EA. > > That said, there's a bit of a race condition here because > draft-rescorla-stateless-tokens-00 defines a generalized > version of this stateless token technique. It may be best to > simply define GRUU as using that technique. > > -Ekr > -- Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 600 Lanidex Plaza Cisco Fellow Parsippany, NJ 07054-2711 Cisco Systems jdrosen@cisco.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 http://www.cisco.com _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 10:42:26 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMQwL-0004GW-Th; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:42:01 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMQwJ-0004GQ-WA for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:42:00 -0500 Received: from shaman.nostrum.com ([72.232.15.10] helo=nostrum.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMQwI-0005cU-Gr for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:41:59 -0500 Received: from [172.17.1.65] (vicuna-alt.estacado.net [75.53.54.121]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l1SFex9E042482 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:41:58 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) In-Reply-To: <257B18BFF522214E92EB52F3478B014E094688@psy01exch.intra.psytechnics.com> References: <257B18BFF522214E92EB52F3478B014E094688@psy01exch.intra.psytechnics.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Message-Id: <710CF56C-63FE-4113-8383-019DD557F2FD@nostrum.com> From: Robert Sparks Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:41:57 -0600 To: "Ravi Raviraj" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Received-SPF: pass (nostrum.com: 75.53.54.121 is authenticated by a trusted mechanism) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 36b1f8810cb91289d885dc8ab4fc8172 Cc: SIP LIST Subject: [Sip] Re: [Sipping] Perceptual objective media quality reporting X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1768546496==" Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org --===============1768546496== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-32--1050894737 --Apple-Mail-32--1050894737 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed For the mythical person that isn't on both lists, I've replied to this on SIPPING. On Feb 28, 2007, at 9:03 AM, Ravi Raviraj wrote: > Hi all, > > Over the last few years, a number of perceptual media quality > objective measures and assessment techniques have been standardized > by ITU-T. For example, MOS-LQO, MOS-CQO, etc. Each one of these > parameters could have number of variations like narrow-band/wide- > band, electrical/acoustical, full reference/no-reference, audio/ > video, etc. When applied within a network end-point, each media > direction (ingress/egress) could have one or more of these values > associated with it. We need a way to report these values > efficiently without any ambiguity. These MOS values could be sent/ > distributed as perceptual objective quality SIP events. In this > way, all the advantages of SIP like mobility, etc. will be pulled in. > > > > I would like to propose a work/discussion item on an event package > for this purpose. Even define/specify a quality reporting > framework. Is there any interest out there? > > > > I presume that, an event package work will be within SIPPING WG, > where should we do the framework work? SIP/AVT? > > > > Thanks. > > > > Ravi. > > > > This email and attachment are confidential. If you have received > this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and > delete the message from your computer. Psytechnics Ltd has taken > steps to ensure that this email is virus free but the recipient > should take necessary steps to make certain. > _______________________________________________ > Sipping mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sipping > This list is for NEW development of the application of SIP > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > Use sip@ietf.org for new developments of core SIP --Apple-Mail-32--1050894737 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 For the mythical person that = isn't on both lists, I've replied to this on = SIPPING.

On Feb 28, 2007, at 9:03 AM, Ravi Raviraj = wrote:

Hi all,

Over the last few years, a = number of perceptual media quality objective measures and assessment = techniques have been standardized by ITU-T. For example, MOS-LQO, = MOS-CQO, etc. Each one of these parameters could have number of = variations like narrow-band/wide-band, electrical/acoustical, full = reference/no-reference, audio/video, etc. When applied within a network = end-point, each media direction (ingress/egress) could have one or more = of these values associated with it. We need a way to report these values = efficiently without any ambiguity. These MOS values could be = sent/distributed as perceptual objective quality SIP events. In this = way, all the advantages of SIP like mobility, etc. will be pulled = in.

=A0

I would like to propose a = work/discussion item on an event package for this purpose. Even = define/specify a quality reporting framework. Is there any interest out = there?

=A0

I presume that, an event = package work will be within SIPPING WG, where should we do the framework = work? SIP/AVT?

=A0

Thanks.

=A0

Ravi.

=A0

This = email and attachment are confidential. If you have received this message = in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the message = from your computer. Psytechnics Ltd has taken steps to ensure that this = email is virus free but the recipient should take necessary steps to = make certain.
This list is = for NEW development of the application of SIP
Use sip-implementors@cs.colum= bia.edu for questions on current sip
Use sip@ietf.org for new developments of = core SIP

= --Apple-Mail-32--1050894737-- --===============1768546496== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --===============1768546496==-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 10:44:17 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMQyK-0005F0-AC; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:44:04 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMQyJ-0005Eq-OR for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:44:03 -0500 Received: from c-69-181-78-47.hsd1.ca.comcast.net ([69.181.78.47] helo=delta.rtfm.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMQyI-0005qV-FT for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:44:03 -0500 Received: by delta.rtfm.com (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 54AC11CC29; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 07:43:11 -0800 (PST) To: Jonathan Rosenberg Subject: Re: [Sip] Nit in draft-ietf-sip-gruu-11.txt References: <200702191932.l1JJW1Lm016558@dragon.ariadne.com> <86mz39vq6j.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> <45E59499.6060309@cisco.com> <86k5y2xrpx.fsf@delta.rtfm.com> <45E59C5A.5000500@cisco.com> From: EKR Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 07:43:11 -0800 In-Reply-To: <45E59C5A.5000500@cisco.com> (Jonathan Rosenberg's message of "Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:14:34 -0500") Message-ID: <86wt22wank.fsf@delta.rtfm.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.1007 (Gnus v5.10.7) XEmacs/21.4.20 (berkeley-unix) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca Cc: sip@ietf.org X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: EKR List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Jonathan Rosenberg writes: > This is a great draft, ekr. I think it will come in handy in lots of > places. Thanks. > A couple of questions. > > Firstly, what is the current status on this? Are you going to push > this through as an AD-sponsored individual? Or is it an IAB doc? Or > for a WG? What is the timeline? All good questions. I just fired off mail to the SEC ADs and Fluffy to ask for advice. > Assuming it will be going forward, I think it would be fine to > reference it. The reference can be informative since the entire > appendix is an informational appendix on how to do this. This way GRUU > won't block on it. Ah. Good point! > I *think* that all we need to do there is specify the format for the > string S, which would be: > > AOR || " " || instance-ID || W || T1 || T2 || .. || Tn > > and then tell folks to use your draft to construct a state token. I > think we'd ignore sequence numbers and timestamps; making these > zero. The reason is that temp-gruu don't have a fixed expiration time, > its linked to expiration of the contacts and thats why W is in the > state itself. Similarly for sequence numbers; T1.. Tn form our > sequence number as part of the state, not in the token itself. Do you > agree? Hmm... So, we're assuming there's no way to revoke tokens other than terminating the underlying registration? I'm trying to decide if that's really true. > After the token is constructed, the user part becomes > > user-part = "GRUU" || BASE64(token) > > Is that right? Yeah, that sounds right. -Ekr _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 10:54:24 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMR88-0002r0-S6; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:54:12 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMR86-0002qr-SK for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:54:10 -0500 Received: from shaman.nostrum.com ([72.232.15.10] helo=nostrum.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMR85-0006nR-HF for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:54:10 -0500 Received: from [172.17.1.65] (vicuna-alt.estacado.net [75.53.54.121]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l1SFs8j8043043 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:54:08 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) In-Reply-To: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F5DF88C@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> References: <002401c75605$303d56e0$92d68640@cornfed> <1467BD05-A314-42C6-8B01-C99ABA4E92F5@cisco.com> <45E3F2C8.8090201@nokia.com> <1051C656-876D-408D-84E5-94943761774F@cisco.com> <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F5DF88C@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Robert Sparks Subject: Re: [Sip] draft-ietfsip-sips Open Issues: Derived Sessions Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 09:54:06 -0600 To: Francois Audet X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Received-SPF: pass (nostrum.com: 75.53.54.121 is authenticated by a trusted mechanism) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0a7aa2e6e558383d84476dc338324fab Cc: SIP X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org inline On Feb 27, 2007, at 6:31 PM, Francois Audet wrote: > I'd like to close on the few remaining issues in the To-Do list of > draft-ietf-sip-sips-01, as > described in Annex B. > > Most of the issues in Annex B are related to how to treat "derived > sessions" where there is a > missmatch between the URI scheme used by the different sessions. > > For example, say a session started with SIPS, and then a REFER is sent > using a Refer-to URI that > points to a sip sheme. A similar issue could occur with third party > call > control. > > I am reluctant to write ultra precise procedures attempting to > cover all > prossible problems that > could happen on this issue, because it just seems that it would be too > complicated and arcane > to explain. > > Rather, I would propose that I write some general guidelines on the > principle of not downgrading > security by allowing a derived session to effectively downgrade from > SIPS to SIP. And then, I'd add > an example or two of common cases. > > For example, a REFER in a session using SIPS should not point to a > Refer-To that is SIP. The UAS > that receives such a request should either > 1) Warn the user about the downgrade and as for persmission to > accept it > (similar to text alreay > in RFC 3515) > 2) Reject it, probably with 403 "Forbidden". > > Do people agree with this approach? Yes, I think the general approach is the correct one. The example is good, but as you're making it concrete, keep in mind applications like directory services. (I might want my call to directory assistance to be secured, but when the connect me to the party I'm interested in, I would probably be willing to downgrade, especially if they didn't offer secure communication - having me explicitly give permission (by staying on the line after a verbal warning perhaps) is reasonable to me.) > Suggestions? > > _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 11:03:15 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMRGM-0001PU-JR; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:02:42 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMRGK-0001MN-GS for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:02:40 -0500 Received: from shaman.nostrum.com ([72.232.15.10] helo=nostrum.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMRGJ-0007iC-59 for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:02:40 -0500 Received: from [172.17.1.65] (vicuna-alt.estacado.net [75.53.54.121]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l1SG2bml043464 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:02:38 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) In-Reply-To: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F5DF8BB@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> References: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F5DF8BB@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <2D99CA8C-7EF5-46AB-A473-CAB250AEDBA1@nostrum.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Robert Sparks Subject: Re: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips Open Issues: GRUU Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:02:36 -0600 To: Francois Audet X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Received-SPF: pass (nostrum.com: 75.53.54.121 is authenticated by a trusted mechanism) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 Cc: SIP X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org This kind of feels like the "what do we say to do when something wildly violates the spec" conversation. (My current read of GRUU says that the registrar went off the rails to do this - am I wrong?). In the past, we've shied away from specifying recovery behavior for all these cases - there are just too many of them. There have been times when it's been important to specify what happens because of (usually) security issues. Maybe this is one of those. If it is, the clarification needs to land in the GRUU spec I think. My own inclination is to say 2), and say it in the GRUU document. RjS On Feb 27, 2007, at 6:49 PM, Francois Audet wrote: > Another open issue in Appendix B of draft-ietf-sip-sips is related to > GRUU. > > It says: > > For GRUU, how should the UAC react if the returned GRUU is SIP but > the To was SIPS? How should the UAC react if the returned GRUU is > SIPS but the To was SIP? > > In other words, what if the registrar returns a GRUU with the wrong > scheme > in the response to REGISTER. > > I can think of the following: > > 1 - UAC uses the GRUU anyways, BUT replace the scheme with the proper > scheme in all usages of GRUU. > > 2 - UAC behaves as if it did not receive a GRUU at all. > > I'm tempted to believe that option 1 is better. > > Any opinions? Other ideas? > > > _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 11:08:27 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMRLX-0006uQ-R4; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:08:03 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMRLV-0006df-Qx for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:08:01 -0500 Received: from zrtps0kp.nortel.com ([47.140.192.56]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMRLU-0008Hc-Dg for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:08:01 -0500 Received: from zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com (zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com [47.103.123.71]) by zrtps0kp.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id l1SG7mM26540; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:07:48 -0500 (EST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips Open Issues: GRUU Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:04:42 -0600 Message-ID: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF035D4F97@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips Open Issues: GRUU Thread-Index: AcdbUeIcsCPo1f4oTNypvNbkrvGs9wAAEYk3 References: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F5DF8BB@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> <2D99CA8C-7EF5-46AB-A473-CAB250AEDBA1@nostrum.com> From: "Francois Audet" To: "Robert Sparks" , X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b8f3559805f7873076212d6f63ee803e Cc: SIP X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1195940423==" Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1195940423== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75B52.96D877C0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75B52.96D877C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, this is exactly what it is: it's the case where the registrar went = off the rails. I'm perfectly happy with your suggestion that we do (2). I don't care if we say it in this document or in GRUU. Jonathan? Any preferences? ---- Fran=E7ois AUDET, Nortel Networks mailto:audet@nortel.com -----Original Message----- From: Robert Sparks [mailto:rjsparks@nostrum.com] Sent: Wed 28-Feb-07 8:02 AM To: Audet, Francois (SC100:3055) Cc: SIP Subject: Re: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips Open Issues: GRUU =20 This kind of feels like the "what do we say to do when something =20 wildly violates the spec" conversation. (My current read of GRUU says that the registrar went off the rails =20 to do this - am I wrong?). In the past, we've shied away from specifying recovery behavior for =20 all these cases - there are just too many of them. There have been times when it's been important to specify =20 what happens because of (usually) security issues. Maybe this is one of those. If it is, the clarification needs =20 to land in the GRUU spec I think. My own inclination is to say 2), and say it in the GRUU document. RjS On Feb 27, 2007, at 6:49 PM, Francois Audet wrote: > Another open issue in Appendix B of draft-ietf-sip-sips is related to > GRUU. > > It says: > > For GRUU, how should the UAC react if the returned GRUU is SIP but > the To was SIPS? How should the UAC react if the returned GRUU is > SIPS but the To was SIP? > > In other words, what if the registrar returns a GRUU with the wrong > scheme > in the response to REGISTER. > > I can think of the following: > > 1 - UAC uses the GRUU anyways, BUT replace the scheme with the proper > scheme in all usages of GRUU. > > 2 - UAC behaves as if it did not receive a GRUU at all. > > I'm tempted to believe that option 1 is better. > > Any opinions? Other ideas? > > > _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75B52.96D877C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips Open Issues: GRUU

Yes, this is exactly what it is: it's the case where = the registrar went off
the rails.

I'm perfectly happy with your suggestion that we do (2).

I don't care if we say it in this document or in GRUU.

Jonathan? Any preferences?



----
Fran=E7ois AUDET, Nortel Networks
mailto:audet@nortel.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Sparks [mailto:rjsparks@nostrum.com]
= Sent: Wed 28-Feb-07 8:02 AM
To: Audet, Francois (SC100:3055)
Cc: SIP
Subject: Re: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips Open Issues: GRUU

This kind of feels like the "what do we say to do when = something 
wildly violates the spec" conversation.
(My current read of GRUU says that the registrar went off the = rails 
to do this - am I wrong?).

In the past, we've shied away from specifying recovery behavior = for 
all these cases - there are just too many
of them. There have been times when it's been important to = specify 
what happens because of (usually) security
issues. Maybe this is one of those. If it is, the clarification = needs 
to land in the GRUU spec I think.

My own inclination is to say 2), and say it in the GRUU document.

RjS

On Feb 27, 2007, at 6:49 PM, Francois Audet wrote:

> Another open issue in Appendix B of draft-ietf-sip-sips is related = to
> GRUU.
>
> It says:
>
>    For GRUU, how should the UAC react if the = returned GRUU is SIP but
>    the To was SIPS?  How should the UAC react = if the returned GRUU is
>    SIPS but the To was SIP?
>
> In other words, what if the registrar returns a GRUU with the = wrong
> scheme
> in the response to REGISTER.
>
> I can think of the following:
>
> 1 - UAC uses the GRUU anyways, BUT replace the scheme with the = proper
>     scheme in all usages of GRUU.
>
> 2 - UAC behaves as if it did not receive a GRUU at all.
>
> I'm tempted to believe that option 1 is better.
>
> Any opinions? Other ideas?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sip mailing list  https://www1.ietf.org= /mailman/listinfo/sip
> This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol
> Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current = sip
> Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of = sip

------_=_NextPart_001_01C75B52.96D877C0-- --===============1195940423== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --===============1195940423==-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 11:09:31 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMRMm-0002cO-MB; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:09:20 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMRMj-0002US-Jt for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:09:17 -0500 Received: from zcars04e.nortel.com ([47.129.242.56]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMRMi-0008Oy-4s for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:09:17 -0500 Received: from zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com (zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com [47.103.123.71]) by zcars04e.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.0/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id l1SG0vu23668; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:00:58 -0500 (EST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: [Sip] draft-ietfsip-sips Open Issues: Derived Sessions Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:08:15 -0600 Message-ID: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF035D4F98@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Sip] draft-ietfsip-sips Open Issues: Derived Sessions Thread-Index: AcdbUMpTQXe1JgSiS4OQzwQXtbbXqgAAdzXR References: <002401c75605$303d56e0$92d68640@cornfed> <1467BD05-A314-42C6-8B01-C99ABA4E92F5@cisco.com> <45E3F2C8.8090201@nokia.com> <1051C656-876D-408D-84E5-94943761774F@cisco.com> <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F5DF88C@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> From: "Francois Audet" To: "Robert Sparks" X-Spam-Score: 0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: df9edf1223802dd4cf213867a3af6121 Cc: SIP X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1741316516==" Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1741316516== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75B52.C2ECD1B2" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75B52.C2ECD1B2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok, makes sense. I think it will be consistent with some of the wording in the security = section of RFC 3515. ---- Fran=E7ois AUDET, Nortel Networks mailto:audet@nortel.com -----Original Message----- From: Robert Sparks [mailto:rjsparks@nostrum.com] Sent: Wed 28-Feb-07 7:54 AM To: Audet, Francois (SC100:3055) Cc: SIP Subject: Re: [Sip] draft-ietfsip-sips Open Issues: Derived Sessions =20 inline On Feb 27, 2007, at 6:31 PM, Francois Audet wrote: > I'd like to close on the few remaining issues in the To-Do list of > draft-ietf-sip-sips-01, as > described in Annex B. > > Most of the issues in Annex B are related to how to treat "derived > sessions" where there is a > missmatch between the URI scheme used by the different sessions. > > For example, say a session started with SIPS, and then a REFER is sent > using a Refer-to URI that > points to a sip sheme. A similar issue could occur with third party =20 > call > control. > > I am reluctant to write ultra precise procedures attempting to =20 > cover all > prossible problems that > could happen on this issue, because it just seems that it would be too > complicated and arcane > to explain. > > Rather, I would propose that I write some general guidelines on the > principle of not downgrading > security by allowing a derived session to effectively downgrade from > SIPS to SIP. And then, I'd add > an example or two of common cases. > > For example, a REFER in a session using SIPS should not point to a > Refer-To that is SIP. The UAS > that receives such a request should either > 1) Warn the user about the downgrade and as for persmission to =20 > accept it > (similar to text alreay > in RFC 3515) > 2) Reject it, probably with 403 "Forbidden". > > Do people agree with this approach? Yes, I think the general approach is the correct one. The example is good, but as you're making it concrete, keep in mind applications like directory services. (I might want my call to directory assistance to be secured, but when the connect me to the party I'm interested in, I would probably be willing to downgrade, especially if they didn't offer secure communication - having me explicitly give permission (by staying on the line after a verbal warning perhaps) is reasonable to me.) > Suggestions? > > _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75B52.C2ECD1B2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [Sip] draft-ietfsip-sips Open Issues: Derived = Sessions

Ok, makes sense.

I think it will be consistent with some of the wording in the security = section of RFC 3515.

----
Fran=E7ois AUDET, Nortel Networks
mailto:audet@nortel.com



-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Sparks [mailto:rjsparks@nostrum.com]
= Sent: Wed 28-Feb-07 7:54 AM
To: Audet, Francois (SC100:3055)
Cc: SIP
Subject: Re: [Sip] draft-ietfsip-sips Open Issues: Derived Sessions

inline

On Feb 27, 2007, at 6:31 PM, Francois Audet wrote:

> I'd like to close on the few remaining issues in the To-Do list = of
> draft-ietf-sip-sips-01, as
> described in Annex B.
>
> Most of the issues in Annex B are related to how to treat = "derived
> sessions" where there is a
> missmatch between the URI scheme used by the different = sessions.
>
> For example, say a session started with SIPS, and then a REFER is = sent
> using a Refer-to URI that
> points to a sip sheme. A similar issue could occur with third = party 
> call
> control.
>
> I am reluctant to write ultra precise procedures attempting = to 
> cover all
> prossible problems that
> could happen on this issue, because it just seems that it would be = too
> complicated and arcane
> to explain.
>
> Rather, I would propose that I write some general guidelines on = the
> principle of not downgrading
> security by allowing a derived session to effectively downgrade = from
> SIPS to SIP. And then, I'd add
> an example or two of common cases.
>
> For example, a REFER in a session using SIPS should not point to = a
> Refer-To that is SIP. The UAS
> that receives such a request should either
> 1) Warn the user about the downgrade and as for persmission = to 
> accept it
> (similar to text alreay
>    in RFC 3515)
> 2) Reject it, probably with 403 "Forbidden".
>
> Do people agree with this approach?

Yes, I think the general approach is the correct one.
The example is good, but as you're making it concrete, keep in mind
applications like directory services. (I might want my call to = directory
assistance to be secured, but when the connect me to the party I'm
interested in, I would probably be willing to downgrade, especially
if they didn't offer secure communication - having me explicitly = give
permission (by staying on the line after a verbal warning perhaps)
is reasonable to me.)

> Suggestions?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sip mailing list  https://www1.ietf.org= /mailman/listinfo/sip
> This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol
> Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current = sip
> Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of = sip

------_=_NextPart_001_01C75B52.C2ECD1B2-- --===============1741316516== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --===============1741316516==-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 11:10:10 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMRNN-00051J-0E; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:09:57 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMRNM-0004uX-0r for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:09:56 -0500 Received: from sj-iport-6.cisco.com ([171.71.176.117]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMRNK-0008TO-MV for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:09:56 -0500 Received: from rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com ([64.102.121.158]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 28 Feb 2007 08:09:54 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,231,1170662400"; d="scan'208"; a="116821866:sNHT44493174" Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com (rtp-core-2.cisco.com [64.102.124.13]) by rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1SG9raD032412; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:09:53 -0500 Received: from xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-201.cisco.com [64.102.31.12]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l1SG9nOC021908; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:09:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.21]) by xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:09:50 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.104] ([10.86.241.21]) by xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:09:49 -0500 Message-ID: <45E5A94D.7010005@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:09:49 -0500 From: Jonathan Rosenberg User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050511 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: EKR Subject: Re: [Sip] Nit in draft-ietf-sip-gruu-11.txt References: <200702191932.l1JJW1Lm016558@dragon.ariadne.com> <86mz39vq6j.fsf@raman.networkresonance.com> <45E59499.6060309@cisco.com> <86k5y2xrpx.fsf@delta.rtfm.com> <45E59C5A.5000500@cisco.com> <86wt22wank.fsf@delta.rtfm.com> In-Reply-To: <86wt22wank.fsf@delta.rtfm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Feb 2007 16:09:49.0947 (UTC) FILETIME=[DF8EC4B0:01C75B52] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1763; t=1172678993; x=1173542993; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim1001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=jdrosen@cisco.com; z=From:=20Jonathan=20Rosenberg=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[Sip]=20Nit=20in=20draft-ietf-sip-gruu-11.txt |Sender:=20 |To:=20EKR=20; bh=K5541Aszk1bVHqrD0l6+1DHyu92ak1zHm0lft0/SBfA=; b=OzeBT8Q2euaFu57lgHETb2U4JOpqQK0FcIGXyhyp9yH++RAAdIOLqIJ47B1+a78rFxm4TEIm 0cyLsJj+0waGahJngIkIf1/YY0TDJO7qAILgUbSMrDiooUv4aDxIVE6W; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-1; header.From=jdrosen@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim1001 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 Cc: sip@ietf.org X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org inline. EKR wrote: > >>I *think* that all we need to do there is specify the format for the >>string S, which would be: >> >>AOR || " " || instance-ID || W || T1 || T2 || .. || Tn >> >>and then tell folks to use your draft to construct a state token. I >>think we'd ignore sequence numbers and timestamps; making these >>zero. The reason is that temp-gruu don't have a fixed expiration time, >>its linked to expiration of the contacts and thats why W is in the >>state itself. Similarly for sequence numbers; T1.. Tn form our >>sequence number as part of the state, not in the token itself. Do you >>agree? > > > Hmm... So, we're assuming there's no way to revoke tokens other > than terminating the underlying registration? I'm trying to decide > if that's really true. Yes, since we have no way to inform the client that they've been revoked, beyond terminating the registration. I suppose a server could revoke a single temp-gruu without informing the client about it, or we could develop mechanisms in the future to inform the client. In that case, you would want the sequence number. The text could indicate that the sequence numbers would be used in the future if such capabilities were added. The timestamp would still be empty though, unless we had, in the future, a mechanism for time-limited temp-gruu. Again the text could say that to leave the door open. -Jonathan R. -- Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 600 Lanidex Plaza Cisco Fellow Parsippany, NJ 07054-2711 Cisco Systems jdrosen@cisco.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 http://www.cisco.com _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 11:33:07 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMRiU-0000cG-RW; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:31:46 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMRiT-0000c8-7R for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:31:45 -0500 Received: from sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com ([171.71.176.72] helo=sj-iport-3.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMRiR-0002hP-Fy for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:31:45 -0500 Received: from rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com ([64.102.121.158]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 28 Feb 2007 08:31:43 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,231,1170662400"; d="scan'208"; a="467591954:sNHT63937524" Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-core-1.cisco.com [64.102.124.12]) by rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1SGVg6Z010661; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:31:42 -0500 Received: from xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-201.cisco.com [64.102.31.12]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l1SGVbVV011818; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:31:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.38]) by xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:31:32 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.104] ([10.86.241.21]) by xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:31:32 -0500 Message-ID: <45E5AE63.2060309@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:31:31 -0500 From: Jonathan Rosenberg User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050511 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathan Rosenberg Subject: Re: [Sip] Issue: Expiration of temp-gruu References: <456E15CD.60805@cisco.com> <1165200634.3607.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> <45749DF6.7040803@cisco.com> <1165336240.3208.72.camel@scott.skrb.org> <45A55E25.3080904@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <45A55E25.3080904@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Feb 2007 16:31:32.0100 (UTC) FILETIME=[E7B38C40:01C75B55] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=10676; t=1172680302; x=1173544302; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim1001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=jdrosen@cisco.com; z=From:=20Jonathan=20Rosenberg=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[Sip]=20Issue=3A=20Expiration=20of=20temp-gruu |Sender:=20 |To:=20Jonathan=20Rosenberg=20; bh=PqbicXI88A6iz8necFR7blRCCfGZk3VSRU5Kc+jbuV0=; b=k++48cXIUrKj9WymM6DHXKuo6eUo8GvIn6mxKYdL9Aa4kkm0AX3ueJnvoOmgP4aG1rZCz72x J0Po1WYbFFCSWCpbmr2bFOxWwrO72BzOdCUY+/XiExirAseIZBgaFwaX; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-1; header.From=jdrosen@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim1001 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 76c7db407a166e4c39f35d8215d8dd32 Cc: SIP IETF , Paul Kyzivat X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org So, its now a month and a half since posting this, and days before the deadline I am getting to do this. And of course, as always seems to happen, on re-reading the threads and documents to re-cache the issues, I find another problem :( The algorithm below works fine, but omits a case. The case that is omitted is where the server doesn't send a partial notification, and instead sends a full-state notification that comes after the registration is refreshed. The flow is like this: UA Reg (reg decides to shorten duration to 5s) NOTIFY (5s) <----------- REGISTER (misses the window, and registration lapses briefly) ------------> 200 OK <------------ NOTIFY (1hr) (reg never bothered to send NOTIFY for expiration since <------------ it was refreshed a second later. So, rather than sending two notifications, it combined and sent one with the most recent state) In this case, the 'glitch' that occurred - the temporary expiration of the contact followed by its re-registration, is NEVER known by the client. So, the server invalidated all of the temp-gruu, but the client doesn't know it. One solution is to REQUIRE a server to always send all state changes, never to combine them. I don't like this, since you still might have cases where the client misses a notification due to packet loss or something, and then you have the same problem over again. IMHO, you need a way for the client to be sure that it is in sync with the server on which temp-gruu are valid, and which are not. Fortunately, the solution here is relatively straightforward. The reg-event notifications include the cseq value present in the registration that first registered this contact. RFC 3680 already includes the total time elapsed since this contact was registered, but since we're dealing with race conditions, the timestamps aren't good enough. This would be a new element, , a child to in the reg-event XML. Whenever the client gets a reg-event notification, it invalidates any temp-gruu learned in a REGISTER that had a cseq value earlier than the . This provides a way for the client to, at any time, synchronize its set of valid temp-gruu with what the server has. So, it resolves this additional case above, in addition to providing a way to verify synchornization at any time, in case the client gets confused. Now, an important point here. Its not just the cseq, its also callid. The callid is part of this since cseq are scoped within a particular callid (as defined in RFC 3261). Interestingly, this provides, as a side-effect, a way for a client to tell the server to invalidate temp-gruu. The client would just generate a register refresh, changing the callid. When it does this, it will, by the algorithm above, invalidate its temp-gruu locally. If we specify that the server does the same, then this provides a way for a client forcefully invalidate all previous temp-gruu without loss of connectivity. This is trivially done statelessly, by changing the hash algorithm to use the orig-cseq and call-id in the hash, rather than wallclock time. The main drawback really is that its a bit of feature creep. Again. My recommendation is to do it anyway, since I need to put about 95% of it in there just to deal with the race condition problem described above. The extra 5% is just an instruction to servers to invalidate temp-gruu when the call-id changes. That bit is what provides the feature whereby the client can forcefully expire temp-gruu. Thoughts? -Jonathan R. Jonathan Rosenberg wrote: > This thread is a month old, but I want to revise GRUU and get this done. > This is really the only issue that is outstanding, I think. > > To refresh everyones memory, the issue being dsicussed is this. > Temp-GRUU expire when the last contact with the instance ID expires. In > normal cases, the expiration is known to the UA. However, there are > cases where there is a forceful de-registration, for example. In these > cases, the UA will not know about it, and it won't know whether its > temp-gruu remain valid. > > We've seen three proposals for how to deal with this: > > 1. include a parameter in the Contact header field of the REGISTER > response, indicating the time at which the first contact with that > instance ID was registered. When this changes in a REGSITER response, > the UA knows its older temp-gruu are invalid. > > 2. the UA uses a reg-event subscription, and it gets a NOTIFY when the > contacts are de-registered. As long as the UA gets the notification > indicating that the de-registration has happened, this works reasonably > well. > > 3. the UA can use an OPTIONS sent to a temp-gruu to verify that it still > works > > (2) and (3) require no new mechanism, just explanation. (1) would > require new mechanism. > > Now, I was in the process of working through some details on this, and > ran into problems. In particular, we ultimately need to be able to > specify an algorithm that clearly tells a UA which of its temp GRUU are > valid, and which are expired. If we are using the reg-event subscription > to figure this out, the obvious algorithm would be to expire all > temp-gruu learned in REGISTER responses prior to this notification. > However, that is imprecise. What about a REGISTER that happens very > close in time to the NOTIFY? Indeed, this is very likely to be the case > when the reg-event is shortening the expiration in order to ask the user > to explicitly re-REGISTER, but the time was a bit too short and the > re-REGISTER is close to the boundary. If a NOTIFY comes indicating that > the contact did expire, how do you *know* if that REGISTER came in > before or after? You could wait for the next NOTIFY, and try and > correlate it with the REGISTER you just completed. > > One way to do that is with CSeq. The reg-event package includes the > option of having CSeq numbers. If we assume these are always used (they > are optional), the algorithm is a bit easier. Each temp-gruu is > associated with the CSeq of the REGISTER in which it was learned. When a > NOTIFY comes indicating that the registration has expired, you look to > see if its a partial or full state NOTIFY. In the case of partial, if > the NOTIFY explicitly removes a contact, you invalidate all temp-gruu > learned in register responses prior to or equal to the CSeq in the > contact. If the case of a full state NOTIFY, if the contact is absent, > the UA marks all temp-gruu as suspect. On the first NOTIFY that > indicates the Contact is re-registered (I assume the UA is > re-registering), the UA invalidates all temp-gruu learned by REGISTER > responses whose CSeq is less than the one in the NOTIFY. All others are > considered valid. > > This algorithm is assuming some very specific behavior from registrars > that are doing reg-event with GRUU. Namely, they always send CSeq, even > when indicating expiration of a contact. We'd need to specify this, > probably as a note in gruu-reg-event. > > Comments on this algorithm? If this is OK I will update GRUU based on > this and we can ship it. Finally. Really this time. > > -Jonathan R. > > > Scott Lawrence wrote: > >> On Mon, 2006-12-04 at 17:15 -0500, Paul Kyzivat wrote: >> >>> Scott, >>> >>> Its certainly true that a gruu can always be tested to see if it >>> works. That would however raise the question of when one ought to do >>> the test. In normal cases you will know the status of your gruu by >>> regular methods, so you would have no reason to test it. So you would >>> have to test whenever you thought failure might have negative >>> consequences. Some of the times when failure might have bad >>> consequences are: when responding to an incoming INVITE, and any time >>> during a dialog. I guess you could send an OPTIONS and await the >>> response before responding to an INVITE, and it might even be masked >>> by alerting, but it seems kind of annoying to have to do that. But no >>> matter how often you do it during a dialog you still might miss the >>> moment your gruu becomes invalid and the other end of the dialog >>> sends you a message. (Extremely unlikely, but possible.) >>> >>> I think the other existing solutions get "pretty close", and OPTIONS >>> doesn't significantly improve on that. >> >> >> >> I don't like requiring the registrar to return a timestamp because it's >> yet another piece of state that it has to keep for every registration. >> >> I don't think it actually helps all that much - going back to your >> original problem statements: >> >> >>> 3) the UA may attempt to refresh the registration, but be too slow, >>> so that the reregistration arrives after the prior one expires >>> 4) some other UA may deregister all the registrations, including >>> the one by this UA. (When the UA decides it should refresh the >>> registration it will actually create a new one.) >>> 5) the registrar may remove the registration administratively >>> 6) the registrar may crash and restart, losing all its registrations >> >> >> >> Case 3 can be avoided by just not waiting too long (overlap by a few >> minutes instead of a few seconds - if that's still problematic then you >> probably have other problems that are worse anyway). >> >> Cases 4,5, and 6 are essentially all the same from the point of view of >> the UA; your registration state at the server is lost because of some >> event you are not aware of. This is true of any registration, and is >> not specific to temp-gruu or public gruu; it can happen with a Contact >> value you provide without gruu at all. A gruu is slightly worse in that >> loosing the state can affect in-dialog requests for established dialogs, >> but I think that's just an unavoidable chance that you take when you >> choose to use a gruu of either kind. Put another way, if you use a >> gruu, you accept the fact that you're relying on an additional service >> for in-dialog connectivity - it's either worth the benefits or it isn't. >> >> >> >> > -- Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 600 Lanidex Plaza Cisco Fellow Parsippany, NJ 07054-2711 Cisco Systems jdrosen@cisco.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 http://www.cisco.com _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 11:58:23 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMS7X-0004bA-8S; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:57:39 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMS7W-0004az-4P for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:57:38 -0500 Received: from sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com ([171.71.176.72] helo=sj-iport-3.cisco.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMS7R-0005y4-Vd for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:57:38 -0500 Received: from rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com ([64.102.121.159]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 28 Feb 2007 08:57:34 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,231,1170662400"; d="scan'208"; a="467600141:sNHT81696680" Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-core-1.cisco.com [64.102.124.12]) by rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1SGvWwB014651; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:57:32 -0500 Received: from xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-201.cisco.com [64.102.31.12]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l1SGvWVT018985; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:57:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.21]) by xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:57:32 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.104] ([10.86.241.21]) by xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:57:32 -0500 Message-ID: <45E5B47B.6060902@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:57:31 -0500 From: Jonathan Rosenberg User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050511 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dale.Worley@comcast.net Subject: Re: [Sip] I-D on implementing GRUU References: <200702210221.l1L2LqRs022137@dragon.ariadne.com> In-Reply-To: <200702210221.l1L2LqRs022137@dragon.ariadne.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Feb 2007 16:57:32.0166 (UTC) FILETIME=[8992BA60:01C75B59] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=11632; t=1172681852; x=1173545852; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=jdrosen@cisco.com; z=From:=20Jonathan=20Rosenberg=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[Sip]=20I-D=20on=20implementing=20GRUU |Sender:=20 |To:=20Dale.Worley@comcast.net; bh=T3nT91MmomPem9+o1UNPznYgpdR2LiVB7Hth34Vkf8o=; b=cQ8NxpYECM47KSAlhkLiqIMtUa22EjM6lIENUvjYU4GjbLqUzsw+/oufi/RyYnxQRWKL3ZQJ acuOrdKdNQSIGQWl8ZtxHejZHi1ssqkpV1grQo7qEU47XpmVn+Ja/oyo; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-2; header.From=jdrosen@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim2001 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 32029c790f79bd4a84a26bd2915c54b9 Cc: sip@ietf.org X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Dale, I'm a bit nervous about this. Two things concern me. One, if there is stuff that is not clear in GRUU, such that it requires clarification in this document, shouldn't we just clarify it in GRUU? If so, can you please make those comments directly? Two, what about things in here that conflict with GRUU? I'd like to get your thoughts on this. I also don't understand the purpose of this draft, since you do in fact say that you don't plan on advancing it. Can you clarify what its purpose is? Some specific comments, related to these two issues above: > The feature tag for the GRUU extension is "gruu". > > Guideline 1: The UA should add "Supported: gruu" to its requests and > responses, and accept "Require: gruu" in requests. This is a MUST in GRUU, not a SHOULD as you have here. So we have a conflict. The MUST in GRUU is important; its what triggers the server to inform the client of its gruu. > Guideline 2: Some UAs implement non-standard mechanisms for handling > URIs that compensate for the fact that heretofore many > contact URIs have not been globally routable. Since > any URI containing the "gr" parameter is known to be > globally routable, a UA should not apply such > mechanisms to any URI containing the "gr" parameter. So, here is a piece of advice which is not in gruu. Seems like it could be added. I'm not sure about what techniques UA apply to contacts; proxies, registrars and B2buas definitely do munge them. Is that what you mean? > Guideline 3: All GRUUs exist both in the "sip" and the "sips" URI > schemes, and UAs must be capable of processing both > varieties of their GRUUs (to the extent that they are > capable of processing any contact URIs in those > schemes). well, this is not true anymore in gruu. The whole issue has been deferred to the sips-guidelines draft. So I would not want to put this into the core gruu document. > Guideline 4: Each UA instance has an "instance ID" which is globally > unique through all space and time. An instance ID > persists through all ordinary operations, especially > restarting and changes in network connectivity. An > instance ID is a URN [2]. all of this is said in sip-outbound. > URNs can be created and assigned by many mechanisms. For a network > host that is a dedicated UA ("SIP phone"), it is recommended that it > uses "version 1" of the UUID URN [3] (which contains the UA's MAC > address) as an instance ID. Because the UA's instance ID is sent in > its REGISTER requests, it makes it possible for the proxy to > correlate the UA's contact URI with its MAC address, which in many > environments is used as the UA's identifier for configuration and > > > > Worley Expires August 23, 2007 [Page 7] > > Internet-Draft Guidelines for GRUU Support February 2007 > > > provisioning. this is reasonable, but NOT specified in sip-outbound. It you want this behavior, it should go there. > Guideline 6: UAs that are not embodied in dedicated UA devices must > generate their instance IDs in a manner that guarantees > global uniqueness. (E.g., a more complex use of > Version 1 UUIDs, a name-based UUID derived from a > suitable identification string, or an object-id > assigned administratively [4].) The "tel" namespace > and similar namespaces should not be used, as > conceptually they are AORs, not unique identifiers for > swarms of user agents. > > Guideline 7: As other SIP agents may use the instance ID and/or GRUU > as a key to cache information about the UA and its > capabilities, it is recommended that when a new version > of software is installed into the UA, the UA should > obtain a new instance ID. > Guideline 8: The UA should always use the same character string to > represent its instance ID (e.g., normalizing the case > of letters), even if the URN scheme permits several > different character strings to represent the same URN. these all would belong in sip-outbound. They are not there now. > Guideline 9: A UA requests a GRUU for its instance ID and a > particular AOR by extending its ordinary REGISTER > requests for that AOR by: (1) adding a "Supported: > gruu" header, and (2) adding an "instance" media > feature tag to the Contact giving the UA's instance ID > as its value. If the registrar understands the GRUU > extension, it may (but is not guaranteed to): (3) > append to the returned Contact the same "instance" > media feature tag and/or a "pub-gruu" field parameter > giving the assigned GRUU. this is all in GRUU-11 already. Is there something in GRUU-11 that you think needs to be clarified on this point? > the syntax of the "instance" tag is a field parameter > '+sip.instance="<{instance ID URN}>"'. As '<' cannot appear in a > "token" [6], the value of the '+sip.instance' parameter must be > quoted with '"'. The instance ID value itself must be contained > between '<' and '>' due to the rules of [5]. In addition, due to the > syntax of "quoted-string" in [6] and "qdtext-no-abkt" in [5], any > occurrence of '"', '<', '>', or '\' in the instance ID must be quoted > by preceding it with '\'. Using '\' to quote other characters, while > allowed by [6], should be avoided to ensure unique representation of > instance IDs. Most but not all of this is in sip-outbound. The stuff about escaping is not. Again if you think this is unclear, it should go in sip-outbound. > Guideline 10: The UA should not attempt to recommend a GRUU to the > registrar (by providing a "gr", "pub-gruu", or "temp- > gruu" field parameter on the Contact header in the > request). already in gruu-11, and clear I think. > Guideline 11: The GRUU should be treated opaquely by the UA. this is not in gruu-11. I can add that. > Guideline 12: If a REGISTER returns a new GRUU for an AOR/instance > ID combination, the UA must use the new GRUU. this is in GRUU-11 and clear I think. > Guideline 13: The UA should register distinct contact URIs for each > AOR it services, so that incoming request-URIs > uniquely identify the AOR through which the request > was routed. Note that it is not a sufficient policy > to generate from each AOR a contact 'sips:{user-part}@ > {IP-address}', since it is common for a UA to service > two AORs with the same user part but different host > parts. One common method to construct multiple > contact addresses is to use the "line" URI-parameter > to apply a unique value to what would otherwise be > identical contact URIs. this is NOT in gruu-11. It could be added there. The 'line' URI parameter is not something defined currently. I suspect this is a proprietary parameter you use in your implementation. BLISS is probably the right place to discuss the problems motivating it. > Guideline 14: When making an out-of-dialog request, the UA should > use as Contact the GRUU corresponding to the AOR that > it places in the To header. > > Guideline 15: When responding to an out-of-dialog request, the UA > should determine, based on the request-URI, the AOR > through which the request was routed, and use as > Contact the GRUU corresponding to that AOR. both of these are in gruu already. > Guideline 16: If a Contact value is a GRUU, target refresh requests > will not change it, because the routing changes that > would be otherwise be effected by modifying the target > URI are effected by the proxy modifying how it routes > requests addressed to the GRUU. [1] [7] Maybe, maybe not. This guideline is dangerous, since it seems to tell implementors that they can ignore the contact in target refresh requests if the original one was a gruu. That is not true. > Guideline 18: Since GRUUs are publicly visible, any screening of > unwanted communications which is applied to an AOR > must be applied to its GRUUs. In addition, since an > AOR's forking may be used to implicitly screen > requests for one of its targets, it may be desirable > to apply additional screening for requests to a GRUU > for such an AOR. this is mostly covered in gruu, but I don't understand the bit about forking. Thanks, Jonathan R. Dale.Worley@comcast.net wrote: > I've updated an Internet-Draft giving condensed instructions for UA > implementors on how to implement GRUU support. (This is updated for > version -11 of the GRUU I-D, but it only discusses "public GRUUs", > which is what we need for our environment.) In our product's > environment (a "true SIP", proxy-based PBX), we've found that to do > call control well, the UAs need to implement (public) GRUU. This I-D > summarizes what UAs need to do > > Guidelines for Implementing the GRUU Support in User Agents > draft-worley-sip-gruu-implement-02 > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-worley-sip-gruu-implement-02.txt > > Abstract > > Several applications of the Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) require > a user agent (UA) to construct and distribute a URI which can be used > by anyone on the Internet to route a request to that specific UA > instance. A URI which routes to a specific UA instance is called a > Globally Routable UA URI (GRUU). An Internet-Draft is progressing > toward standardization that specifies procedures for proxies and UAs > by which proxies can construct and delver GRUUs to UAs that request > them. This document summarizes for UA implementors how to obtain > "public" GRUUs and gives guidance on effectively using public GRUUs. > > Feel free to contact me with any comments. > > Dale > > _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip > -- Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 600 Lanidex Plaza Cisco Fellow Parsippany, NJ 07054-2711 Cisco Systems jdrosen@cisco.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 http://www.cisco.com _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 11:59:05 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMS8u-0004rW-VC; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:59:04 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMS8u-0004rM-2h; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:59:04 -0500 Received: from expint.psytechnics.com ([217.33.106.234]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMS8s-0006Hb-Qu; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:59:04 -0500 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message Importance: normal Priority: normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1896 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:59:46 -0000 Message-ID: <257B18BFF522214E92EB52F3478B014E09468D@psy01exch.intra.psytechnics.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Perceptual objective media quality reporting thread-index: AcdbUjlX/MqWBMo7RMOgxZNziI+gSwABuw9g From: "Ravi Raviraj" To: , X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Cc: Subject: [Sip] Perceptual objective media quality reporting X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Hi all, Number of people asked me to discuss this in the SIPPING list. So, let's discuss it over there. If you are interested in this topic, please have a look over there. Thanks. Ravi. This email and attachment are confidential. If you have received this = message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the = message from your computer. Psytechnics Ltd has taken steps to ensure = that this email is virus free but the recipient should take necessary = steps to make certain. _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 13:46:28 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMTnL-0002tj-Jj; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 13:44:55 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMTnI-0002tI-Uq for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 13:44:52 -0500 Received: from rtp-iport-1.cisco.com ([64.102.122.148]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMTnH-00063t-4B for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 13:44:52 -0500 Received: from rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com ([64.102.121.159]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 28 Feb 2007 13:44:49 -0500 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,231,1170651600"; d="scan'208"; a="53783515:sNHT45633720" Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-core-1.cisco.com [64.102.124.12]) by rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1SIimMP028341; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 13:44:48 -0500 Received: from xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-211.cisco.com [64.102.31.102]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l1SIiQVl017155; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 13:44:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.21]) by xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 28 Feb 2007 13:44:42 -0500 Received: from [161.44.174.118] ([161.44.174.118]) by xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 28 Feb 2007 13:44:41 -0500 Message-ID: <45E5CDA3.6030009@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 13:44:51 -0500 From: Paul Kyzivat User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathan Rosenberg Subject: Re: [Sip] I-D on implementing GRUU References: <200702210221.l1L2LqRs022137@dragon.ariadne.com> <45E5B47B.6060902@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <45E5B47B.6060902@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Feb 2007 18:44:41.0822 (UTC) FILETIME=[81F25FE0:01C75B68] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=877; t=1172688288; x=1173552288; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=pkyzivat@cisco.com; z=From:=20Paul=20Kyzivat=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[Sip]=20I-D=20on=20implementing=20GRUU |Sender:=20 |To:=20Jonathan=20Rosenberg=20; bh=8lP34AfMlJ75cZV6If0Fn3wbVEyRjAd0wglOFb7y0Kw=; b=v3hSsYv2edJEGLCpfvs1MaM4jpFrK5mKmd76MviuRSt6P3xyA3TCXWqFKg/574xbr8AZABAq QiCzvLfv5/68MxI5zSBZjFlGyvh1P38NRwON7mn/NHdTcex2iBf6FGAB; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-2; header.From=pkyzivat@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim2001 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Cc: sip@ietf.org X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Jonathan Rosenberg wrote: >> Guideline 2: Some UAs implement non-standard mechanisms for handling >> URIs that compensate for the fact that heretofore many >> contact URIs have not been globally routable. Since >> any URI containing the "gr" parameter is known to be >> globally routable, a UA should not apply such >> mechanisms to any URI containing the "gr" parameter. > > So, here is a piece of advice which is not in gruu. Seems like it could > be added. I'm not sure about what techniques UA apply to contacts; > proxies, registrars and B2buas definitely do munge them. Is that what > you mean? Some things that might be different: - sending in-dialog REFER vs out-of-dialog - using the To-URI rather than the Contact for things like Refer-To Paul _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 14:01:01 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMU2P-0007V9-E5; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 14:00:29 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMU2N-0007To-9b for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 14:00:27 -0500 Received: from rtp-iport-1.cisco.com ([64.102.122.148]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMU2K-000054-TQ for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 14:00:27 -0500 Received: from rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com ([64.102.121.159]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 28 Feb 2007 14:00:25 -0500 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,231,1170651600"; d="scan'208"; a="53785669:sNHT54430108" Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-core-1.cisco.com [64.102.124.12]) by rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1SJ0Op6005287; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 14:00:24 -0500 Received: from xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-211.cisco.com [64.102.31.102]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l1SJ0EVt022142; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 14:00:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.38]) by xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 28 Feb 2007 14:00:15 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.104] ([10.86.241.21]) by xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 28 Feb 2007 14:00:15 -0500 Message-ID: <45E5D13E.3030009@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 14:00:14 -0500 From: Jonathan Rosenberg User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050511 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Francois Audet Subject: Re: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips Open Issues: GRUU References: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F5DF8BB@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> <2D99CA8C-7EF5-46AB-A473-CAB250AEDBA1@nostrum.com> <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF035D4F97@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF035D4F97@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Feb 2007 19:00:15.0238 (UTC) FILETIME=[AE4E5A60:01C75B6A] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=4204; t=1172689224; x=1173553224; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=jdrosen@cisco.com; z=From:=20Jonathan=20Rosenberg=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[Sip]=20draft-ietf-sip-sips=20Open=20Issues=3A=20GRUU |Sender:=20 |To:=20Francois=20Audet=20; bh=y+ZqklSj3GR4KUdp+lN6rHGhUpbe6mX2nZz/grmocKc=; b=FFSk65ei3aKHtptX/e8iadRWRKCLtrWgcgJ0+iSnq8uDPkW8gG4BcABAlZAFFhYOPmBLfd0H /s2LbO/tdIncE3vLxFt+xAn5wIVAxfBIBrVKJHeveisybEGr9QepEkLD; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-2; header.From=jdrosen@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim2001 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 36c793b20164cfe75332aa66ddb21196 Cc: SIP X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org I'd prefer option 1. The reason is, if the registrar does properly handle the sips version of your gruu, but just didn't tell you about it, then in option 1, things still work. Specifying this doesn't belong in GRUU since we had decided previously to eliminate almost all discussion on SIPS from GRUU. So it would be way out of place to say it there. Indeed, since we are saying that sip and sips URI are basically equivalent, I would argue that the scheme in the To header field of the REGISTER is really irrelevant entirely. The key is really the R-URI and Contact in the register. If they are both sips, then the result is a "secure" link from the client to the registrar. Once that is in place, a call to the sips version of the AOR can be routed over this link, using the sips COntact and sips Path that would have been created by the registration. Similarly a call to a SIP URI could use that link too. Another related point, with current registrar behavior of replacing the R-URI with the registered contact, if I send a REGISTER request with a sips Contact and sips URI, and then someone sends me a call to the sip version of my AOR, the r-uri will be translated to the sips contact I had registered. So how does a sips-only client reject this? I'm referring to paragraph 4 in section 5. Not a GRUU question per se, but related. I'll note that this issue is solved with UA loose route. -Jonathan R. Francois Audet wrote: > Yes, this is exactly what it is: it's the case where the registrar went off > the rails. > > I'm perfectly happy with your suggestion that we do (2). > > I don't care if we say it in this document or in GRUU. > > Jonathan? Any preferences? > > > > ---- > François AUDET, Nortel Networks > mailto:audet@nortel.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Sparks [mailto:rjsparks@nostrum.com] > Sent: Wed 28-Feb-07 8:02 AM > To: Audet, Francois (SC100:3055) > Cc: SIP > Subject: Re: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips Open Issues: GRUU > > This kind of feels like the "what do we say to do when something > wildly violates the spec" conversation. > (My current read of GRUU says that the registrar went off the rails > to do this - am I wrong?). > > In the past, we've shied away from specifying recovery behavior for > all these cases - there are just too many > of them. There have been times when it's been important to specify > what happens because of (usually) security > issues. Maybe this is one of those. If it is, the clarification needs > to land in the GRUU spec I think. > > My own inclination is to say 2), and say it in the GRUU document. > > RjS > > On Feb 27, 2007, at 6:49 PM, Francois Audet wrote: > > > Another open issue in Appendix B of draft-ietf-sip-sips is related to > > GRUU. > > > > It says: > > > > For GRUU, how should the UAC react if the returned GRUU is SIP but > > the To was SIPS? How should the UAC react if the returned GRUU is > > SIPS but the To was SIP? > > > > In other words, what if the registrar returns a GRUU with the wrong > > scheme > > in the response to REGISTER. > > > > I can think of the following: > > > > 1 - UAC uses the GRUU anyways, BUT replace the scheme with the proper > > scheme in all usages of GRUU. > > > > 2 - UAC behaves as if it did not receive a GRUU at all. > > > > I'm tempted to believe that option 1 is better. > > > > Any opinions? Other ideas? > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip > > -- Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 600 Lanidex Plaza Cisco Fellow Parsippany, NJ 07054-2711 Cisco Systems jdrosen@cisco.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 http://www.cisco.com _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 16:30:47 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMWM8-0000lT-QS; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:29:00 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMWM6-0000i3-La for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:28:58 -0500 Received: from zcars04f.nortel.com ([47.129.242.57]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMWM4-0000K2-CX for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:28:58 -0500 Received: from zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com (zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com [47.103.123.71]) by zcars04f.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id l1SLSf802659; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:28:41 -0500 (EST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips Open Issues: GRUU Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 15:28:25 -0600 Message-ID: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F62DD2E@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <45E5D13E.3030009@cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips Open Issues: GRUU Thread-Index: AcdbarbTgoznNYBZRcqJyrGfl3IayQAFAXqQ References: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F5DF8BB@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> <2D99CA8C-7EF5-46AB-A473-CAB250AEDBA1@nostrum.com> <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF035D4F97@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> <45E5D13E.3030009@cisco.com> From: "Francois Audet" To: "Jonathan Rosenberg" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 Cc: SIP X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonathan Rosenberg [mailto:jdrosen@cisco.com]=20 > Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 11:00 > To: Audet, Francois (SC100:3055) > Cc: Robert Sparks; SIP > Subject: Re: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips Open Issues: GRUU >=20 > I'd prefer option 1. The reason is, if the registrar does=20 > properly handle the sips version of your gruu, but just=20 > didn't tell you about it, then in option 1, things still work. Yes, this was my preference as well, for exactly the same reason. I'm ok with both 1 and 2, but I prefer 1. I'll wait to see if anybody elses chimes in. If not, and I don't get strong pushback from Robert, I'll use the option 1 approach. > Specifying this doesn't belong in GRUU since we had decided=20 > previously to eliminate almost all discussion on SIPS from=20 > GRUU. So it would be way out of place to say it there. Ok. _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 16:34:27 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMWR4-0004zB-Lq; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:34:06 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMWR3-0004yv-5C for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:34:05 -0500 Received: from shaman.nostrum.com ([72.232.15.10] helo=nostrum.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMWR0-0001Ma-LR for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:34:05 -0500 Received: from [172.17.1.65] (vicuna-alt.estacado.net [75.53.54.121]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l1SLY0MD038483 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 28 Feb 2007 15:34:01 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) In-Reply-To: <45E5D13E.3030009@cisco.com> References: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F5DF8BB@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> <2D99CA8C-7EF5-46AB-A473-CAB250AEDBA1@nostrum.com> <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF035D4F97@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> <45E5D13E.3030009@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Robert Sparks Subject: Re: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips Open Issues: GRUU Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 15:33:59 -0600 To: Jonathan Rosenberg X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Received-SPF: pass (nostrum.com: 75.53.54.121 is authenticated by a trusted mechanism) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 93e7fb8fef2e780414389440f367c879 Cc: SIP , Francois Audet X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org On Feb 28, 2007, at 1:00 PM, Jonathan Rosenberg wrote: > I'd prefer option 1. The reason is, if the registrar does properly =20 > handle the sips version of your gruu, but just didn't tell you =20 > about it, then in option 1, things still work. I'm still very nervous. What about something in the middle twidding bits (replacing sips: =20 with sip: in the GRUU in the contact in the register response?) I see the sunny case working that you're describing, but are you sure =20= its not enabling something you don't _want_ to work? > > Specifying this doesn't belong in GRUU since we had decided =20 > previously to eliminate almost all discussion on SIPS from GRUU. So =20= > it would be way out of place to say it there. If the answer is 2) then I disagree. It is more or less the same as =20 saying what to do if your gruu parameter comes back with an http: URI =20= in it. > > Indeed, since we are saying that sip and sips URI are basically =20 > equivalent, I would argue that the scheme in the To header field of =20= > the REGISTER is really irrelevant entirely. Agreed. > The key is really the R-URI and Contact in the register. I was only looking at the scheme in the contact URI when I was =20 thinking about this. > If they are both sips, then the result is a "secure" link from the =20 > client to the registrar. Once that is in place, a call to the sips =20 > version of the AOR can be routed over this link, using the sips =20 > COntact and sips Path that would have been created by the =20 > registration. Similarly a call to a SIP URI could use that link too. > > Another related point, with current registrar you mean a retargeting proxy? > behavior of replacing the R-URI with the registered contact, if I =20 > send a REGISTER request with a sips Contact and sips URI, and then =20 > someone sends me a call to the sip version of my AOR, the r-uri =20 > will be translated to the sips contact I had registered. ? I'm lost. Probably by the same thing that made me ask the question =20 above. Maybe I'm not following Francois draft closely enough - did we decide =20= to allow upgrades when retargeting? > So how does a sips-only client reject this? I'm referring to =20 > paragraph 4 in section 5. Not a GRUU question per se, but related. > > I'll note that this issue is solved with UA loose route. > > -Jonathan R. > > > > Francois Audet wrote: > >> Yes, this is exactly what it is: it's the case where the registrar =20= >> went off >> the rails. >> I'm perfectly happy with your suggestion that we do (2). >> I don't care if we say it in this document or in GRUU. >> Jonathan? Any preferences? >> ---- >> Fran=E7ois AUDET, Nortel Networks >> mailto:audet@nortel.com >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Robert Sparks [mailto:rjsparks@nostrum.com] >> Sent: Wed 28-Feb-07 8:02 AM >> To: Audet, Francois (SC100:3055) >> Cc: SIP >> Subject: Re: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips Open Issues: GRUU >> This kind of feels like the "what do we say to do when something =20 >> wildly violates the spec" conversation. >> (My current read of GRUU says that the registrar went off the =20 >> rails to do this - am I wrong?). >> In the past, we've shied away from specifying recovery behavior =20 >> for all these cases - there are just too many >> of them. There have been times when it's been important to specify =20= >> what happens because of (usually) security >> issues. Maybe this is one of those. If it is, the clarification =20 >> needs to land in the GRUU spec I think. >> My own inclination is to say 2), and say it in the GRUU document. >> RjS >> On Feb 27, 2007, at 6:49 PM, Francois Audet wrote: >> > Another open issue in Appendix B of draft-ietf-sip-sips is =20 >> related to >> > GRUU. >> > >> > It says: >> > >> > For GRUU, how should the UAC react if the returned GRUU is =20 >> SIP but >> > the To was SIPS? How should the UAC react if the returned =20 >> GRUU is >> > SIPS but the To was SIP? >> > >> > In other words, what if the registrar returns a GRUU with the =20 >> wrong >> > scheme >> > in the response to REGISTER. >> > >> > I can think of the following: >> > >> > 1 - UAC uses the GRUU anyways, BUT replace the scheme with the =20 >> proper >> > scheme in all usages of GRUU. >> > >> > 2 - UAC behaves as if it did not receive a GRUU at all. >> > >> > I'm tempted to believe that option 1 is better. >> > >> > Any opinions? Other ideas? >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip >> > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol >> > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip >> > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of =20= >> sip > > --=20 > Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 600 Lanidex Plaza > Cisco Fellow Parsippany, NJ =20 > 07054-2711 > Cisco Systems > jdrosen@cisco.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 > http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 > http://www.cisco.com _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 16:49:41 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMWf1-0004Gl-N8; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:48:31 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMWez-0004Fs-Ly for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:48:29 -0500 Received: from shaman.nostrum.com ([72.232.15.10] helo=nostrum.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMWey-0003io-Aj for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:48:29 -0500 Received: from [172.17.1.65] (vicuna-alt.estacado.net [75.53.54.121]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l1SLmQSB039145 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 28 Feb 2007 15:48:27 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from rjsparks@nostrum.com) In-Reply-To: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F62DD2E@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> References: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F5DF8BB@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> <2D99CA8C-7EF5-46AB-A473-CAB250AEDBA1@nostrum.com> <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF035D4F97@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> <45E5D13E.3030009@cisco.com> <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F62DD2E@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Robert Sparks Subject: Re: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips Open Issues: GRUU Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 15:48:25 -0600 To: Francois Audet X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Received-SPF: pass (nostrum.com: 75.53.54.121 is authenticated by a trusted mechanism) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Cc: SIP X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org On Feb 28, 2007, at 3:28 PM, Francois Audet wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jonathan Rosenberg [mailto:jdrosen@cisco.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 11:00 >> To: Audet, Francois (SC100:3055) >> Cc: Robert Sparks; SIP >> Subject: Re: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips Open Issues: GRUU >> >> I'd prefer option 1. The reason is, if the registrar does >> properly handle the sips version of your gruu, but just >> didn't tell you about it, then in option 1, things still work. > > Yes, this was my preference as well, for exactly the same reason. > > I'm ok with both 1 and 2, but I prefer 1. > > I'll wait to see if anybody elses chimes in. If not, and I don't get > strong pushback from Robert, I'll use the option 1 approach. I commented on Jonathan's response, but it's not strong pushback. > >> Specifying this doesn't belong in GRUU since we had decided >> previously to eliminate almost all discussion on SIPS from >> GRUU. So it would be way out of place to say it there. > > Ok. > _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 17:00:15 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMWq0-0008Vv-PM; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:59:52 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMWpy-0008Vf-PL for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:59:50 -0500 Received: from zrtps0kp.nortel.com ([47.140.192.56]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMWpw-0005ja-G2 for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:59:50 -0500 Received: from zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com (zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com [47.103.123.71]) by zrtps0kp.nortel.com (Switch-2.2.6/Switch-2.2.0) with ESMTP id l1SLxXM18447; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:59:33 -0500 (EST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 15:59:32 -0600 Message-ID: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F62DDEA@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> In-Reply-To: <45E5D13E.3030009@cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-sip-sips Open Issues: Delivering requests to registered contact Thread-Index: AcdbarbTgoznNYBZRcqJyrGfl3IayQAFK0jg References: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F5DF8BB@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> <2D99CA8C-7EF5-46AB-A473-CAB250AEDBA1@nostrum.com> <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF035D4F97@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> <45E5D13E.3030009@cisco.com> From: "Francois Audet" To: "Jonathan Rosenberg" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 Cc: SIP Subject: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips Open Issues: Delivering requests to registered contact X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org I'm changing the Subject field because Jonathan is pointing out another important issue. > -----Original Message----- > From: Jonathan Rosenberg [mailto:jdrosen@cisco.com]=20 > Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 11:00 > To: Audet, Francois (SC100:3055) > Cc: Robert Sparks; SIP > Subject: Re: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips Open Issues: GRUU > > Another related point, with current registrar behavior of=20 > replacing the R-URI with the registered contact, if I send a=20 > REGISTER request with a sips Contact and sips URI, and then=20 > someone sends me a call to the sip version of my AOR, the=20 > r-uri will be translated to the sips contact I had=20 > registered. So how does a sips-only client reject this? I'm=20 > referring to paragraph 4 in section 5. Not a GRUU question=20 > per se, but related. Actually, I the problem you are refering to affects not only REGISTER, but any requests that has a Contact (like an INVITE, if you expect mid-dialog requests). That problem is something that I noticed was a big problem in earlier versions of this draft (i.e., draft-ietf-sip-sips-00, and the individual drafts draft-audet-sip-sips-guidelines). Basically, it was broken I had done a change in this version of the draft (i.e., draft-ietf-sip-sips-01) to address this. Look at the second paragraph of section 4. (The call flows have been adjusted for this too). Basically, it says that the proxy must keep the same=20 scheme (sip or sips) that was in the incoming request before delivering it (i.e., sip -> sip, and sips -> sips). If we don't do that, we'll have the problem you are describing, but we'll also have a bigger problem with mid-dialog requests. To me this is consistent with the idea that schemes are=20 equivalent from a routing perspective. So yes, the proxy replaces the contact with the registered contact, but it keeps the originial scheme of the request that it is forwarding. > I'll note that this issue is solved with UA loose route. Yes it would. But I think proxies should nevertheless keep the same scheme (sip or sips) when forwarding a request to the client. Otherwise, it makes SIPS=20 dependent on loose routes. I do not think that it would be warranted to make that a dependency. _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 17:28:09 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMXGj-0005Dy-H4; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:27:29 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMXGh-0005Ds-Ok for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:27:27 -0500 Received: from nylon.softarmor.com ([66.135.38.164]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMXGg-0000me-Ee for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:27:27 -0500 Received: from [64.101.172.114] ([64.101.172.114]) (authenticated bits=0) by nylon.softarmor.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l1SLXAqk020369 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 28 Feb 2007 15:33:11 -0600 In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Dean Willis Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:27:13 -0600 To: SIP IETF X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1a1bf7677bfe77d8af1ebe0e91045c5b Cc: Andrew Allen , Keith Drage Subject: [Sip] Re: Question on 3840 terminology in answermode draft X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org ok, I'm stuck. Keith's draft PROTO writeup for draft-ietf-sip-answermode-01 says: > Section 4.1.2 of the document indicates the existence of an =20 > "answermode" SIP extension feature tag. First, although the =20 > reference given is RFC 3840, this document does not use the =20 > terminology of "SIP extension feature tag". Secondly it is assumed =20 > that any new feature tag carries some form of IANA registration =20 > requirements which do not appear to be made. in reference to document text, which currently says: > 4.1.2. REGISTER Transactions > > To indicate that it supports the answer-mode negotiation feature, a =20= > UA includes a SIP extension feature tag of: > > extensions=3D"answermode" > > in the Contact: header field of its REGISTER requests. This usage =20 > of feature tags is described in [7] (Rosenberg, J., Schulzrinne, =20 > H., and P. Kyzivat, =93Indicating User Agent Capabilities in the =20 > Session Initiation Protocol (SIP),=94 August 2004.). I'm not exactly sure how to resolve this and need guidance from the =20 WG on how it should be documented. As I understand it, RFC 3840 defines the sip.extensions feature tag =20 as follows: 10.15. Extensions Media feature tag name: sip.extensions ASN.1 Identifier: 1.3.6.1.8.4.15 Summary of the media feature indicated by this tag: Each value of =20= the sip.extensions feature tag (note the plurality) is a SIP =20 extension (each of which is defined by an option-tag registered with IANA) that is understood by the UA. Understood, in this context, means that the option tag would be included in a Supported header field in a request. Values appropriate for use with this feature tag: Token with an equality relationship. Values are taken from the option tags table in the IANA SIP parameters registry. The feature tag is intended primarily for use in the following applications, protocols, services, or negotiation mechanisms: =20 This feature tag is most useful in a communications application for describing the capabilities of a device, such as a phone or PDA. Examples of typical use: Choosing to communicate with a phone that supports quality of service preconditions instead of one that =20 does not. The SIP extensions feature tag refers to extensions by their option =20 tags. The answermode draft defines an options tag: 8.3. Registration of SIP Option Tags This document defines the SIP option tag "answermode". The following row shall be added to the "Option Tags" section of the =20 SIP Parameter Registry: Name Description Reference answermode This option tag is for [RFCXXXX] support of the Answer-Mode and Priv-Answer-Mode extensions used to negotiate automatic or manual answering of a request. Editor Note: [RFCXXXX] should be replaced with the designation of =20 this document. So, what's not clear? Is it "SIP extension feature tag" instead of =20 "sip.extensions feature tag"? What's the preferred construction? -- Dean _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 17:28:52 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMXI4-0005UH-Nd; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:28:52 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMP2C-0005WU-B7 for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 08:39:56 -0500 Received: from mail.radcom.com ([80.74.109.3] helo=rad-w2ksrv11.radcom.co.il) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMI8o-0003Ln-2r for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 01:18:19 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 08:17:18 +0200 Message-ID: <72E31CBDD28B29418986A01998EAC72D024E7F09@rad-w2ksrv11.radcom.co.il> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: DTMF presentation in INFO messages Thread-Index: AcdbABNckQ+WcjfbSRa22fvagkhItw== From: "Yariv Omer" To: X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 20f22c03b5c66958bff5ef54fcda6e48 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:28:49 -0500 Subject: [Sip] DTMF presentation in INFO messages X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1806246514==" Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============1806246514== Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C75B00.190C4428" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75B00.190C4428 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi =20 When building an INFO message that represent a DTMF digit out-of-band As: =20 .... Content-Type: application/dtmf-relay=20 Signal=3D5=20 Duration=3D160 =20 How I present the "*" , "#" or Flash? (Should I put 10,11,16 in the Signal attribute?) =20 Regards, Yariv =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C75B00.190C4428 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi

 

When building an INFO message that represent a DTMF digit = out-of-band

As:

 

….

Content-Type: application/dtmf-relay

Signal=3D5
Duration=3D160

 

How I present the "*" , "#" or Flash? (Should I put = 10,11,16 in the Signal attribute?)

 

Regards, Yariv

 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C75B00.190C4428-- --===============1806246514== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --===============1806246514==-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 17:32:39 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMXKN-0006t2-7q; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:31:15 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMR6L-00017W-C7; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:52:21 -0500 Received: from mx.cbeyond.com ([66.180.96.58]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMR6J-0006eM-RC; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:52:21 -0500 Received: from [69.15.238.196] (port=3427 helo=TELCHADCPC) by mx.cbeyond.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1HMS3S-0000M7-AQ; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:53:26 -0500 From: "Alan Clark" To: "'Ravi Raviraj'" , , , Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:52:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: AcdbSZlLw9qRfvsQSU61gayfTs285QABkZRA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 In-Reply-To: <257B18BFF522214E92EB52F3478B014E094688@psy01exch.intra.psytechnics.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f0b5a4216bfa030ed8a6f68d1833f8ae X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:31:13 -0500 Cc: Subject: [Sip] RE: [AVT] Perceptual objective media quality reporting X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2016072787==" Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Message-Id: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============2016072787== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0039_01C75B26.819B6C40" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C75B26.819B6C40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ravi The industry has been doing this for some time - there is an existing draft in SIPPING - for the SIP RTCP Summary Report that does exactly what you are asking for, also RTCP XR (RFC3611), RTCP HR (current AVT WG draft), and a laundry list of other protocols for MGCP, Megaco....... In some cases (e.g. RTCP HR, SIP) you can indicate the algorithm used to estimate quality, and hence if you wanted to use PESQ in an active test then you could report using the SIP RTCP Summary Report and indicate that the MOS estimation algorithm was P.862.n Regards Alan _____ From: Ravi Raviraj [mailto:ravi.raviraj@psytechnics.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 10:03 AM To: sipping@ietf.org; sip@ietf.org; avt@ietf.org Subject: [AVT] Perceptual objective media quality reporting Hi all, Over the last few years, a number of perceptual media quality objective measures and assessment techniques have been standardized by ITU-T. For example, MOS-LQO, MOS-CQO, etc. Each one of these parameters could have number of variations like narrow-band/wide-band, electrical/acoustical, full reference/no-reference, audio/video, etc. When applied within a network end-point, each media direction (ingress/egress) could have one or more of these values associated with it. We need a way to report these values efficiently without any ambiguity. These MOS values could be sent/distributed as perceptual objective quality SIP events. In this way, all the advantages of SIP like mobility, etc. will be pulled in. I would like to propose a work/discussion item on an event package for this purpose. Even define/specify a quality reporting framework. Is there any interest out there? I presume that, an event package work will be within SIPPING WG, where should we do the framework work? SIP/AVT? Thanks. Ravi. This email and attachment are confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the message from your computer. Psytechnics Ltd has taken steps to ensure that this email is virus free but the recipient should take necessary steps to make certain. ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C75B26.819B6C40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Ravi
 
The industry has been doing this for some time - there is = an=20 existing draft in SIPPING - for the SIP RTCP Summary Report that does = exactly=20 what you are asking for, also RTCP XR (RFC3611), RTCP HR (current AVT WG = draft),=20 and a laundry list of other protocols for MGCP, Megaco.......  In = some=20 cases (e.g. RTCP HR, SIP) you can indicate the algorithm used to = estimate=20 quality, and hence if you wanted to use PESQ in an active test then you = could=20 report using the SIP RTCP Summary Report and indicate that the MOS = estimation=20 algorithm was P.862.n
 
Regards
 
Alan
 

From: Ravi Raviraj=20 [mailto:ravi.raviraj@psytechnics.com]
Sent: Wednesday, = February 28,=20 2007 10:03 AM
To: sipping@ietf.org; sip@ietf.org;=20 avt@ietf.org
Subject: [AVT] Perceptual objective media quality = reporting

Hi = all,

Over the last few years, a = number of=20 perceptual media quality objective measures and assessment techniques = have been=20 standardized by ITU-T. For example, MOS-LQO, MOS-CQO, etc. Each one of = these=20 parameters could have number of variations like narrow-band/wide-band,=20 electrical/acoustical, full reference/no-reference, audio/video, etc. = When=20 applied within a network end-point, each media direction = (ingress/egress) could=20 have one or more of these values associated with it. We need a way to = report=20 these values efficiently without any ambiguity. These MOS values could = be=20 sent/distributed as perceptual objective quality SIP events. In this = way, all=20 the advantages of SIP like mobility, etc. will be pulled=20 in.

 

I would like to propose a=20 work/discussion item on an event package for this purpose. Even = define/specify a=20 quality reporting framework. Is there any interest out=20 there?

 

I presume that, an event = package=20 work will be within SIPPING WG, where should we do the framework work?=20 SIP/AVT?

 

Thanks.

 

Ravi.

 

This = email and=20 attachment are confidential. If you have received this message in error, = please=20 notify the sender immediately and delete the message from your computer. = Psytechnics Ltd has taken steps to ensure that this email is virus free = but the=20 recipient should take necessary steps to make certain. ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C75B26.819B6C40-- --===============2016072787== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --===============2016072787==-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 17:32:39 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMXKM-0006sr-56; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:31:14 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HM4I0-0003dJ-3s; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 10:30:52 -0500 Received: from [203.187.132.25] (helo=tapal.aricent.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HM4Hx-0002xy-UU; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 10:30:52 -0500 Received: from tapal.aricent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tapal.aricent.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l1RFTPdv018469; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 20:59:25 +0530 Received: from pragati.blr.hss.hns.com (pragati.blr.hss.hns.com [10.203.193.22])by tapal.aricent.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l1RFTOQD018462;Tue, 27 Feb 2007 20:59:25 +0530 In-Reply-To: <94350539FC77154CBBF37A9B9284133D022653B4@HYD-MKD-MBX01.wipro.c om> To: Subject: RE: [Sip] Knowing status of sent message MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.5 November 30, 2005 Message-ID: From: Vishnu.Yadav@aricent.com Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 21:03:20 +0530 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on Pragati/BLR/HSS(Release 6.5.5|November 30, 2005) at02/27/2007 09:00:43 PM,Serialize complete at 02/27/2007 09:00:43 PM X-imss-version: 2.046 X-imss-result: Passed X-imss-scanInfo: M:B L:E SM:2 X-imss-tmaseResult: TT:1 TS:-17.9399 TC:1F TRN:63 TV:3.6.1039(15022.002) X-imss-scores: Clean:100.00000 C:0 M:0 S:0 R:0 X-imss-settings: Baseline:2 C:1 M:1 S:1 R:1 (0.0000 0.0000) X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 093efd19b5f651b2707595638f6c4003 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:31:13 -0500 Cc: sip@ietf.org, sipping@ietf.org X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0237203064==" Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org This is a multipart message in MIME format. --===============0237203064== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 00551FD56525728F_=" This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 00551FD56525728F_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable intermediate=20proxies=20can=20send=20202=20.=0D=0AIn=20MESSAGE=20case=20= =0D=0A200=20->=20implies=20that=20the=20Msg=20has=20reached=20to=20destin= ation=0D=0A202=20->=20that=20=20proxy=20has=20recvd=20it=20&=20will=20frw= rded=20it=20towards=20final=20=0D=0Adestination=0D=0A=0D=0Avishnu=0D=0A= =0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=20=0D=0A02/20/2007=2003:29= =20PM=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0ATo=0D=0A,=20,=20=0D=0Acc=0D=0A=0D=0ASubject=0D=0ARE:=20[Sip]=20Knowing= =20status=20of=20sent=20message=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A= Hi=20Ranjit,=0D=0AEvery=20MESSAGE=20method=20will=20be=20acknowledged=20b= y=20200=20OK=20success=20response.=0D=0A=20=0D=0AThat=20means,=20=0D=0AIf= =20?A?=20sends=20MESSAGE=20to=20?B?,=20upon=20receiving=20this=20MESSAGE= =20B=20sends=20200=20OK=20=0D=0Aresponse=20to=20A.=0D=0A=20=0D=0ARegards= =0D=0AKamal=0D=0A=0D=0AFrom:=20Avasarala=20Ranjit-A20990=20[mailto:ranjit= @motorola.com]=20=0D=0ASent:=20Tuesday,=20February=2020,=202007=203:21=20= PM=0D=0ATo:=20sipping@ietf.org;=20sip@ietf.org=0D=0ASubject:=20[Sip]=20Kn= owing=20status=20of=20sent=20message=0D=0AImportance:=20High=0D=0A=20=0D= =0AHi=20=0D=0AIs=20there=20a=20mechanism=20in=20SIP=20to=20know=20the=20s= tatus=20of=20sent=20instant=20message=20=0D=0Ausing=20MESSAGE?=20=0D=0ATh= anks=20=0D=0ARegards=20=0D=0ARanjit=20___________________________________= ____________=0D=0ASip=20mailing=20list=20=20https://www1.ietf.org/mailman= /listinfo/sip=0D=0AThis=20list=20is=20for=20NEW=20development=20of=20the= =20core=20SIP=20Protocol=0D=0AUse=20sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu=20fo= r=20questions=20on=20current=20sip=0D=0AUse=20sipping@ietf.org=20for=20ne= w=20developments=20on=20the=20application=20of=20sip=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A***= ********************=20=20Aricent-Private=20=20=20***********************= =0D=0A"DISCLAIMER:=20This=20message=20is=20proprietary=20to=20Aricent=20a= nd=20is=20intended=20solely=20for=20the=20use=20of=20=0Athe=20individual= =20to=20whom=20it=20is=20addressed.=20It=20may=20contain=20privileged=20o= r=20confidential=20information=20and=20should=20not=20be=20=0Acirculated= =20or=20used=20for=20any=20purpose=20other=20than=20for=20what=20it=20is= =20intended.=20If=20you=20have=20received=20this=20message=20in=20error,= =20=0Aplease=20notify=20the=20originator=20immediately.=20If=20you=20are= =20not=20the=20intended=20recipient,=20you=20are=20notified=20that=20you= =20are=20strictly=0Aprohibited=20from=20using,=20copying,=20altering,=20o= r=20disclosing=20the=20contents=20of=20this=20message.=20Aricent=20accept= s=20no=20responsibility=20for=20=0Aloss=20or=20damage=20arising=20from=20= the=20use=20of=20the=20information=20transmitted=20by=20this=20email=20in= cluding=20damage=20from=20virus."=0A --=_alternative 00551FD56525728F_= Content-Type: text/html; 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--=_alternative 00551FD56525728F_=-- --===============0237203064== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --===============0237203064==-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 17:32:39 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMXKN-0006t2-7q; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:31:15 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMR6L-00017W-C7; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:52:21 -0500 Received: from mx.cbeyond.com ([66.180.96.58]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMR6J-0006eM-RC; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:52:21 -0500 Received: from [69.15.238.196] (port=3427 helo=TELCHADCPC) by mx.cbeyond.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1HMS3S-0000M7-AQ; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:53:26 -0500 From: "Alan Clark" To: "'Ravi Raviraj'" , , , Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:52:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: AcdbSZlLw9qRfvsQSU61gayfTs285QABkZRA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 In-Reply-To: <257B18BFF522214E92EB52F3478B014E094688@psy01exch.intra.psytechnics.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f0b5a4216bfa030ed8a6f68d1833f8ae X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:31:13 -0500 Cc: Subject: [Sip] RE: [AVT] Perceptual objective media quality reporting X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2016072787==" Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Message-Id: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --===============2016072787== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0039_01C75B26.819B6C40" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C75B26.819B6C40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Ravi The industry has been doing this for some time - there is an existing draft in SIPPING - for the SIP RTCP Summary Report that does exactly what you are asking for, also RTCP XR (RFC3611), RTCP HR (current AVT WG draft), and a laundry list of other protocols for MGCP, Megaco....... In some cases (e.g. RTCP HR, SIP) you can indicate the algorithm used to estimate quality, and hence if you wanted to use PESQ in an active test then you could report using the SIP RTCP Summary Report and indicate that the MOS estimation algorithm was P.862.n Regards Alan _____ From: Ravi Raviraj [mailto:ravi.raviraj@psytechnics.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 10:03 AM To: sipping@ietf.org; sip@ietf.org; avt@ietf.org Subject: [AVT] Perceptual objective media quality reporting Hi all, Over the last few years, a number of perceptual media quality objective measures and assessment techniques have been standardized by ITU-T. For example, MOS-LQO, MOS-CQO, etc. Each one of these parameters could have number of variations like narrow-band/wide-band, electrical/acoustical, full reference/no-reference, audio/video, etc. When applied within a network end-point, each media direction (ingress/egress) could have one or more of these values associated with it. We need a way to report these values efficiently without any ambiguity. These MOS values could be sent/distributed as perceptual objective quality SIP events. In this way, all the advantages of SIP like mobility, etc. will be pulled in. I would like to propose a work/discussion item on an event package for this purpose. Even define/specify a quality reporting framework. Is there any interest out there? I presume that, an event package work will be within SIPPING WG, where should we do the framework work? SIP/AVT? Thanks. Ravi. This email and attachment are confidential. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the message from your computer. Psytechnics Ltd has taken steps to ensure that this email is virus free but the recipient should take necessary steps to make certain. ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C75B26.819B6C40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Ravi
 
The industry has been doing this for some time - there is = an=20 existing draft in SIPPING - for the SIP RTCP Summary Report that does = exactly=20 what you are asking for, also RTCP XR (RFC3611), RTCP HR (current AVT WG = draft),=20 and a laundry list of other protocols for MGCP, Megaco.......  In = some=20 cases (e.g. RTCP HR, SIP) you can indicate the algorithm used to = estimate=20 quality, and hence if you wanted to use PESQ in an active test then you = could=20 report using the SIP RTCP Summary Report and indicate that the MOS = estimation=20 algorithm was P.862.n
 
Regards
 
Alan
 

From: Ravi Raviraj=20 [mailto:ravi.raviraj@psytechnics.com]
Sent: Wednesday, = February 28,=20 2007 10:03 AM
To: sipping@ietf.org; sip@ietf.org;=20 avt@ietf.org
Subject: [AVT] Perceptual objective media quality = reporting

Hi = all,

Over the last few years, a = number of=20 perceptual media quality objective measures and assessment techniques = have been=20 standardized by ITU-T. For example, MOS-LQO, MOS-CQO, etc. Each one of = these=20 parameters could have number of variations like narrow-band/wide-band,=20 electrical/acoustical, full reference/no-reference, audio/video, etc. = When=20 applied within a network end-point, each media direction = (ingress/egress) could=20 have one or more of these values associated with it. We need a way to = report=20 these values efficiently without any ambiguity. These MOS values could = be=20 sent/distributed as perceptual objective quality SIP events. In this = way, all=20 the advantages of SIP like mobility, etc. will be pulled=20 in.

 

I would like to propose a=20 work/discussion item on an event package for this purpose. Even = define/specify a=20 quality reporting framework. Is there any interest out=20 there?

 

I presume that, an event = package=20 work will be within SIPPING WG, where should we do the framework work?=20 SIP/AVT?

 

Thanks.

 

Ravi.

 

This = email and=20 attachment are confidential. If you have received this message in error, = please=20 notify the sender immediately and delete the message from your computer. = Psytechnics Ltd has taken steps to ensure that this email is virus free = but the=20 recipient should take necessary steps to make certain. ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C75B26.819B6C40-- --===============2016072787== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --===============2016072787==-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 17:32:39 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMXKM-0006sr-56; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:31:14 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HM4I0-0003dJ-3s; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 10:30:52 -0500 Received: from [203.187.132.25] (helo=tapal.aricent.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HM4Hx-0002xy-UU; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 10:30:52 -0500 Received: from tapal.aricent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tapal.aricent.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l1RFTPdv018469; Tue, 27 Feb 2007 20:59:25 +0530 Received: from pragati.blr.hss.hns.com (pragati.blr.hss.hns.com [10.203.193.22])by tapal.aricent.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l1RFTOQD018462;Tue, 27 Feb 2007 20:59:25 +0530 In-Reply-To: <94350539FC77154CBBF37A9B9284133D022653B4@HYD-MKD-MBX01.wipro.c om> To: Subject: RE: [Sip] Knowing status of sent message MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 6.5.5 November 30, 2005 Message-ID: From: Vishnu.Yadav@aricent.com Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 21:03:20 +0530 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on Pragati/BLR/HSS(Release 6.5.5|November 30, 2005) at02/27/2007 09:00:43 PM,Serialize complete at 02/27/2007 09:00:43 PM X-imss-version: 2.046 X-imss-result: Passed X-imss-scanInfo: M:B L:E SM:2 X-imss-tmaseResult: TT:1 TS:-17.9399 TC:1F TRN:63 TV:3.6.1039(15022.002) X-imss-scores: Clean:100.00000 C:0 M:0 S:0 R:0 X-imss-settings: Baseline:2 C:1 M:1 S:1 R:1 (0.0000 0.0000) X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 093efd19b5f651b2707595638f6c4003 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:31:13 -0500 Cc: sip@ietf.org, sipping@ietf.org X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0237203064==" Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org This is a multipart message in MIME format. --===============0237203064== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 00551FD56525728F_=" This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 00551FD56525728F_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable intermediate=20proxies=20can=20send=20202=20.=0D=0AIn=20MESSAGE=20case=20= =0D=0A200=20->=20implies=20that=20the=20Msg=20has=20reached=20to=20destin= ation=0D=0A202=20->=20that=20=20proxy=20has=20recvd=20it=20&=20will=20frw= rded=20it=20towards=20final=20=0D=0Adestination=0D=0A=0D=0Avishnu=0D=0A= =0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=20=0D=0A02/20/2007=2003:29= =20PM=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0ATo=0D=0A,=20,=20=0D=0Acc=0D=0A=0D=0ASubject=0D=0ARE:=20[Sip]=20Knowing= =20status=20of=20sent=20message=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A= Hi=20Ranjit,=0D=0AEvery=20MESSAGE=20method=20will=20be=20acknowledged=20b= y=20200=20OK=20success=20response.=0D=0A=20=0D=0AThat=20means,=20=0D=0AIf= =20?A?=20sends=20MESSAGE=20to=20?B?,=20upon=20receiving=20this=20MESSAGE= =20B=20sends=20200=20OK=20=0D=0Aresponse=20to=20A.=0D=0A=20=0D=0ARegards= =0D=0AKamal=0D=0A=0D=0AFrom:=20Avasarala=20Ranjit-A20990=20[mailto:ranjit= @motorola.com]=20=0D=0ASent:=20Tuesday,=20February=2020,=202007=203:21=20= PM=0D=0ATo:=20sipping@ietf.org;=20sip@ietf.org=0D=0ASubject:=20[Sip]=20Kn= owing=20status=20of=20sent=20message=0D=0AImportance:=20High=0D=0A=20=0D= =0AHi=20=0D=0AIs=20there=20a=20mechanism=20in=20SIP=20to=20know=20the=20s= tatus=20of=20sent=20instant=20message=20=0D=0Ausing=20MESSAGE?=20=0D=0ATh= anks=20=0D=0ARegards=20=0D=0ARanjit=20___________________________________= ____________=0D=0ASip=20mailing=20list=20=20https://www1.ietf.org/mailman= /listinfo/sip=0D=0AThis=20list=20is=20for=20NEW=20development=20of=20the= =20core=20SIP=20Protocol=0D=0AUse=20sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu=20fo= r=20questions=20on=20current=20sip=0D=0AUse=20sipping@ietf.org=20for=20ne= w=20developments=20on=20the=20application=20of=20sip=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A***= ********************=20=20Aricent-Private=20=20=20***********************= =0D=0A"DISCLAIMER:=20This=20message=20is=20proprietary=20to=20Aricent=20a= nd=20is=20intended=20solely=20for=20the=20use=20of=20=0Athe=20individual= =20to=20whom=20it=20is=20addressed.=20It=20may=20contain=20privileged=20o= r=20confidential=20information=20and=20should=20not=20be=20=0Acirculated= =20or=20used=20for=20any=20purpose=20other=20than=20for=20what=20it=20is= =20intended.=20If=20you=20have=20received=20this=20message=20in=20error,= =20=0Aplease=20notify=20the=20originator=20immediately.=20If=20you=20are= =20not=20the=20intended=20recipient,=20you=20are=20notified=20that=20you= =20are=20strictly=0Aprohibited=20from=20using,=20copying,=20altering,=20o= r=20disclosing=20the=20contents=20of=20this=20message.=20Aricent=20accept= s=20no=20responsibility=20for=20=0Aloss=20or=20damage=20arising=20from=20= the=20use=20of=20the=20information=20transmitted=20by=20this=20email=20in= cluding=20damage=20from=20virus."=0A --=_alternative 00551FD56525728F_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0D=0A
intermediate=20proxies= =20can=20send=20202=20.=0D=0A
In=20MESSAGE=20case=20=0D=0A
200=20->=20implies=20that=20the=20Msg=20has=20reached=0D=0A= to=20destination=0D=0A
2= 02=20->=20that=20 proxy=20has=20recvd=0D=0Ait=20&=20will=20fr= wrded=20it=20towards=20final=20destination=0D=0A
=0D=0A
vishnu=0D=0A
=0D=0A
=0D= =0A
=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A<kamalakar.mergu@= wipro.com>=0D=0A=0D=0A

02/20/2007=2003:29=20PM=0D=0A
=0D=0A=0D= =0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A<= font=20size=3D1=20face=3D"sans-serif">To=0D=0A<ranjit@motorola.com>= ,=0D=0A<sipping@ietf.org>,=20<sip@ietf.org>=0D=0A= =0D=0A=0D=0Acc=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0ASubject=0D=0ARE:=20= [Sip]=20Knowing=20status=0D=0Aof=20sent=20message=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A
=0D=0A
=0D=0A=
=0D=0A
=0D=0A
=0D=0A
Hi=20Ranjit,=0D=0A
Every=20MESSAGE=20method=20will= =0D=0Abe=20acknowledged=20by=20200=20OK=20success=20response.=0D= =0A
 =0D=0A
= That=20means,=20=0D=0A
If=20“A”=20sends=20MESSAGE=0D=0Ato=20R= 20;B”,=20upon=20receiving=20this=20MESSAGE=20B=20sends=20200=20OK= =20response=20to=20A.=0D=0A
 =0D=0A
Regards=0D=0A
Kamal=0D=0A=0D=0A
=0D=0A

=0D=0A
From:=20Avasarala=20Ranjit-A20990=20[mailto:ranjit@motorol= a.com]=0D=0A
=0D=0ASent:=20Tuesday,=20February=2020,=202007=203= :21=20PM
=0D=0ATo:=20sipping@ietf.org;=20sip@ietf.org
=0D= =0ASubject:=20[Sip]=20Knowing=20status=20of=20sent=20message
= =0D=0AImportance:=20High=0D=0A
 =0D=0A

Hi=0D=0A=0D=0A

Is=20there=20a=20mechanism=0D=0Ain=20SIP=20to= =20know=20the=20status=20of=20sent=20instant=20message=20using=20MESSAGE?= =0D=0A=0D= =0A

Than= ks=0D=0A=0D= =0A

Regar= ds=0D=0A
=0D=0ARanj= it=20_______________________________________________
=0D=0AS= ip=20mailing=20list=20 https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip=0D=0AThis=20list=20is=20for=20NEW=20development=20of=20the=20core=20SIP= =20Protocol
=0D=0AUse=20sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu=20for=20quest= ions=20on=20current=20sip
=0D=0AUse=20sipping@ietf.org=20for=20new=20d= evelopments=20on=20the=20application=20of=20sip=0D=0A


=0D=0A
=0D=0A*******************= ****=20 Aricent-Private=20 =20***********************=0D= =0A
"DISCL=
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=20If=20you=20have=20received=20this=20message=20in=20error,=20=0Aplease=
=20notify=20the=20originator=20immediately.=20If=20you=20are=20not=20the=
=20intended=20recipient,=20you=20are=20notified=20that=20you=20are=20stri=
ctly=0Aprohibited=20from=20using,=20copying,=20altering,=20or=20disclosin=
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age=20from=20virus."=0A
--=_alternative 00551FD56525728F_=-- --===============0237203064== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --===============0237203064==-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 17:35:47 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMXOU-0001ac-3C; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:35:30 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMXOR-0001W5-Mt; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:35:27 -0500 Received: from dsl001-129-069.dfw1.dsl.speakeasy.net ([72.1.129.69] helo=vicuna.estacado.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMXOP-0001zJ-M2; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:35:27 -0500 Received: from [172.17.2.60] ([172.17.2.60]) (authenticated bits=0) by vicuna.estacado.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l1SMZGDL019113 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:35:16 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from bcampen@estacado.net) In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Message-Id: <0B635C81-5339-4527-9210-6A7DCC964C77@estacado.net> From: Byron Campen Subject: Re: [Sip] Knowing status of sent message Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:35:05 -0600 To: Vishnu.Yadav@aricent.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 578c2c9d0cb01ffe6e1ca36540edd070 Cc: sip@ietf.org, sipping@ietf.org X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0175886043==" Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org --===============0175886043== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=sha1; boundary=Apple-Mail-2--1026102060; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" --Apple-Mail-2--1026102060 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-1--1026106800 --Apple-Mail-1--1026106800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Just a note; a proxy, as defined by 3261, is not allowed to do = this. =20 This is strictly a B2BUA thing. Best regards, Byron Campen > > intermediate proxies can send 202 . > In MESSAGE case > 200 -> implies that the Msg has reached to destination > 202 -> that proxy has recvd it & will frwrded it towards final =20 > destination > > vishnu > > > > 02/20/2007 03:29 PM > > To > , , > cc > Subject > RE: [Sip] Knowing status of sent message > > > > > > Hi Ranjit, > Every MESSAGE method will be acknowledged by 200 OK success response. > > That means, > If =93A=94 sends MESSAGE to =93B=94, upon receiving this MESSAGE B = sends =20 > 200 OK response to A. > > Regards > Kamal > > > From: Avasarala Ranjit-A20990 [mailto:ranjit@motorola.com] > Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 3:21 PM > To: sipping@ietf.org; sip@ietf.org > Subject: [Sip] Knowing status of sent message > Importance: High > > Hi > > Is there a mechanism in SIP to know the status of sent instant =20 > message using MESSAGE? > > Thanks > > Regards > Ranjit _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip > > > > *********************** Aricent-Private *********************** > "DISCLAIMER: This message is proprietary to Aricent and is intended =20= > solely for the use of > the individual to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged =20 > or confidential information and should not be > circulated or used for any purpose other than for what it is =20 > intended. If you have received this message in error, > please notify the originator immediately. If you are not the =20 > intended recipient, you are notified that you are strictly > prohibited from using, copying, altering, or disclosing the =20 > contents of this message. Aricent accepts no responsibility for > loss or damage arising from the use of the information transmitted =20 > by this email including damage from virus." > > _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --Apple-Mail-1--1026106800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252

Just a = note; a proxy, as defined by 3261, is not allowed to do this. This is = strictly a B2BUA thing.

Best = regards,
Byron Campen


intermediate proxies can send 202 = .
In MESSAGE case =
200 -> implies that = the Msg has reached to destination
202 -> that =A0proxy has recvd it & will = frwrded it towards final destination

vishnu


=
<kamalakar.mergu@wipro.com>= ;

02/20/2007 03:29 = PM

=
To
<ranjit@motorola.com>, <sipping@ietf.org>, <sip@ietf.org> =
cc
 =
Subject
RE: [Sip] Knowing status of sent = message

=



Hi Ranjit,
Every MESSAGE method = will be acknowledged by 200 OK success response.
=A0
That means, =
If =93A=94 = sends MESSAGE to =93B=94, upon receiving this MESSAGE B sends 200 OK = response to A.
=A0
Regards
Kamal

=

From: Avasarala = Ranjit-A20990 [mailto:ranjit@motorola.com] =
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 3:21 PM
To: sipping@ietf.org; sip@ietf.org
Subject: [Sip] = Knowing status of sent message
Importance: High =
=A0

Hi

Is there a mechanism in SIP to = know the status of sent instant message using MESSAGE?

Thanks

Regards
Ranjit = _______________________________________________
Sip = mailing list =A0https://www1.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/sip
This list is for NEW development of the = core SIP Protocol
Use sip-implementors@cs.colum= bia.edu for questions on current sip
Use sipping@ietf.org for new = developments on the application of sip



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the individual to whom it is addressed. It may contain privileged or =
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This list is = for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol
Use sip-implementors@cs.colum= bia.edu for questions on current sip
Use sipping@ietf.org for new = developments on the application of sip
=

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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip --===============0175886043==-- From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 17:39:51 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMXSc-00029K-Di; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:39:46 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMXSa-00025w-Vw for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:39:44 -0500 Received: from shaman.nostrum.com ([72.232.15.10] helo=nostrum.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMXSW-0002l3-Vd for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:39:44 -0500 Received: from [172.17.2.61] (vicuna-alt.estacado.net [75.53.54.121]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l1SMdU4P041561 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:39:37 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) Message-ID: <45E604A0.9040708@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:39:28 -0600 From: Adam Roach User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Macintosh/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Yariv Omer Subject: Re: [Sip] DTMF presentation in INFO messages References: <72E31CBDD28B29418986A01998EAC72D024E7F09@rad-w2ksrv11.radcom.co.il> In-Reply-To: <72E31CBDD28B29418986A01998EAC72D024E7F09@rad-w2ksrv11.radcom.co.il> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Received-SPF: pass (nostrum.com: 75.53.54.121 is authenticated by a trusted mechanism) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by nostrum.com id l1SMdU4P041561 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 Cc: sip@ietf.org X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Which RFC are you referencing for this use of INFO? /a Yariv Omer wrote: > > Hi > > When building an INFO message that represent a DTMF digit out-of-band > > As: > > =85. > > Content-Type: application/dtmf-relay > > Signal=3D5 > Duration=3D160 > > How I present the "*" , "#" or Flash? (Should I put 10,11,16 in the=20 > Signal attribute?) > > Regards, Yariv > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= - > > _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 17:57:02 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMXiX-000213-5u; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:56:13 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMXiV-00020y-HG for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:56:11 -0500 Received: from rtp-iport-1.cisco.com ([64.102.122.148]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMXiU-0005co-5K for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:56:11 -0500 Received: from rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com ([64.102.121.158]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 28 Feb 2007 17:56:10 -0500 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,232,1170651600"; d="scan'208"; a="53808434:sNHT107455262" Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-core-1.cisco.com [64.102.124.12]) by rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1SMu9vu020310; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:56:09 -0500 Received: from xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-201.cisco.com [64.102.31.12]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l1SMtxVT023727; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:56:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.38]) by xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:55:59 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.104] ([10.86.241.21]) by xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:55:59 -0500 Message-ID: <45E6087E.3030408@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:55:58 -0500 From: Jonathan Rosenberg User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050511 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dean Willis Subject: Re: [Sip] Re: Question on 3840 terminology in answermode draft References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Feb 2007 22:55:59.0092 (UTC) FILETIME=[9CB33340:01C75B8B] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=4256; t=1172703369; x=1173567369; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim1001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=jdrosen@cisco.com; z=From:=20Jonathan=20Rosenberg=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[Sip]=20Re=3A=20Question=20on=203840=20terminology=20 in=20answermode=20draft |Sender:=20 |To:=20Dean=20Willis=20; bh=j9Sd9bbEl9zNm+yZjQqRtiS78t4aBFQbf/UKEavIpOk=; b=C1JUNKTNpSGLZrkO+dm+Q8/ZXMD3Ff4FbGmaOkPMVY7HdKUz8CXjRIecG3aJ1/s2Qwp6hlCN Lw+O+gw89UtuYuxgQegvXgt6tRpfarUIE8N0SIiVXfj0fly+mkrFmyau; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-1; header.From=jdrosen@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim1001 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 093efd19b5f651b2707595638f6c4003 Cc: SIP IETF , Andrew Allen , Keith Drage X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org I would suggest: "... a UA includes the extensions Contact header field parameter with a value that includes answermode: ;extensions="answermode" -Jonathan R. Dean Willis wrote: > > ok, I'm stuck. > > > > Keith's draft PROTO writeup for draft-ietf-sip-answermode-01 says: > >> Section 4.1.2 of the document indicates the existence of an >> "answermode" SIP extension feature tag. First, although the reference >> given is RFC 3840, this document does not use the terminology of "SIP >> extension feature tag". Secondly it is assumed that any new feature >> tag carries some form of IANA registration requirements which do not >> appear to be made. > > > > in reference to document text, which currently says: > >> 4.1.2. REGISTER Transactions >> >> To indicate that it supports the answer-mode negotiation feature, a >> UA includes a SIP extension feature tag of: >> >> extensions="answermode" >> >> in the Contact: header field of its REGISTER requests. This usage of >> feature tags is described in [7] (Rosenberg, J., Schulzrinne, H., and >> P. Kyzivat, “Indicating User Agent Capabilities in the Session >> Initiation Protocol (SIP),” August 2004.). > > > > I'm not exactly sure how to resolve this and need guidance from the WG > on how it should be documented. > > As I understand it, RFC 3840 defines the sip.extensions feature tag as > follows: > > 10.15. Extensions > > Media feature tag name: sip.extensions > > ASN.1 Identifier: 1.3.6.1.8.4.15 > > Summary of the media feature indicated by this tag: Each value of the > sip.extensions feature tag (note the plurality) is a SIP extension > (each of which is defined by an option-tag registered with IANA) > that is understood by the UA. Understood, in this context, means > that the option tag would be included in a Supported header field > in a request. > > Values appropriate for use with this feature tag: Token with an > equality relationship. Values are taken from the option tags > table in the IANA SIP parameters registry. > > The feature tag is intended primarily for use in the following > applications, protocols, services, or negotiation mechanisms: This > feature tag is most useful in a communications application for > describing the capabilities of a device, such as a phone or PDA. > > Examples of typical use: Choosing to communicate with a phone that > supports quality of service preconditions instead of one that does > not. > > > The SIP extensions feature tag refers to extensions by their option > tags. The answermode draft defines an options tag: > > 8.3. Registration of SIP Option Tags > > This document defines the SIP option tag "answermode". > > The following row shall be added to the "Option Tags" section of the > SIP Parameter Registry: > Name Description Reference > answermode This option tag is for [RFCXXXX] > support of the Answer-Mode > and Priv-Answer-Mode > extensions used to > negotiate automatic or > manual answering of a > request. > > Editor Note: [RFCXXXX] should be replaced with the designation of this > document. > > > > > So, what's not clear? Is it "SIP extension feature tag" instead of > "sip.extensions feature tag"? What's the preferred construction? > > > -- > Dean > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip > This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol > Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip > Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip > -- Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 600 Lanidex Plaza Cisco Fellow Parsippany, NJ 07054-2711 Cisco Systems jdrosen@cisco.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 http://www.cisco.com _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 18:00:39 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMXmV-0004yp-8Q; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:00:19 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMXmU-0004ya-Oj for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:00:18 -0500 Received: from rtp-iport-1.cisco.com ([64.102.122.148]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMXmT-00069B-De for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:00:18 -0500 Received: from rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com ([64.102.121.158]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 28 Feb 2007 18:00:18 -0500 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,232,1170651600"; d="scan'208"; a="53808892:sNHT49728706" Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-core-1.cisco.com [64.102.124.12]) by rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1SN0HH9022335; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:00:17 -0500 Received: from xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-211.cisco.com [64.102.31.102]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l1SN00Vh024762; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:00:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.38]) by xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:00:12 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.104] ([10.86.241.21]) by xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:00:11 -0500 Message-ID: <45E6097B.6040703@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:00:11 -0500 From: Jonathan Rosenberg User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.7.8) Gecko/20050511 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Sparks Subject: Re: [Sip] draft-ietf-sip-sips Open Issues: GRUU References: <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF0F5DF8BB@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> <2D99CA8C-7EF5-46AB-A473-CAB250AEDBA1@nostrum.com> <1ECE0EB50388174790F9694F77522CCF035D4F97@zrc2hxm0.corp.nortel.com> <45E5D13E.3030009@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Feb 2007 23:00:11.0841 (UTC) FILETIME=[3359A310:01C75B8C] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=3164; t=1172703617; x=1173567617; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim1001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=jdrosen@cisco.com; z=From:=20Jonathan=20Rosenberg=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[Sip]=20draft-ietf-sip-sips=20Open=20Issues=3A=20GRUU |Sender:=20 |To:=20Robert=20Sparks=20; bh=u9aOCb2SIvzKYxQatuEd3yarUQfZw5Y6qQ5PMcBVwZ8=; b=ruWs2exkDIG/JewEJcvpV9mUPjP46JLgc6y5UY+PTqGHugFsM2tux2B27/2Wecn9rcBmORvv slYgVWeEdvMWJZ7ul8VlslyLwO9fYe+NrD2ju6AddT+vOI0w3DDPVpXQ; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-1; header.From=jdrosen@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim1001 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c3a18ef96977fc9bcc21a621cbf1174b Cc: SIP , Francois Audet X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Robert Sparks wrote: > > On Feb 28, 2007, at 1:00 PM, Jonathan Rosenberg wrote: > >> I'd prefer option 1. The reason is, if the registrar does properly >> handle the sips version of your gruu, but just didn't tell you about >> it, then in option 1, things still work. > > I'm still very nervous. > What about something in the middle twidding bits (replacing sips: with > sip: in the GRUU in the contact in the register response?) For what purpose? WIth option 2, this would cause a loss of function. WIth option 1, it has no effect. > I see the sunny case working that you're describing, but are you sure > its not enabling something you don't _want_ to work? Not that I can think of. Since the sip and sips URI are equivalent anyway, what harm can this do? Of course an attacker capable of modifying messages can do so much worse than tweaking a sip scheme to sips...... > >> >> Specifying this doesn't belong in GRUU since we had decided >> previously to eliminate almost all discussion on SIPS from GRUU. So >> it would be way out of place to say it there. > > If the answer is 2) then I disagree. It is more or less the same as > saying what to do if your gruu parameter comes back with an http: URI > in it. Which one can always specify in another draft. We agreed to keep SIPS out of GRUU entirely. THe fact that we are debating an open issue around how to use SIPS with GRUU is exactly why. > >> >> Indeed, since we are saying that sip and sips URI are basically >> equivalent, I would argue that the scheme in the To header field of >> the REGISTER is really irrelevant entirely. > > Agreed. > >> The key is really the R-URI and Contact in the register. > > I was only looking at the scheme in the contact URI when I was thinking > about this. > >> If they are both sips, then the result is a "secure" link from the >> client to the registrar. Once that is in place, a call to the sips >> version of the AOR can be routed over this link, using the sips >> COntact and sips Path that would have been created by the >> registration. Similarly a call to a SIP URI could use that link too. >> >> Another related point, with current registrar > > you mean a retargeting proxy? > >> behavior of replacing the R-URI with the registered contact, if I >> send a REGISTER request with a sips Contact and sips URI, and then >> someone sends me a call to the sip version of my AOR, the r-uri will >> be translated to the sips contact I had registered. > > ? I'm lost. Probably by the same thing that made me ask the question > above. > Maybe I'm not following Francois draft closely enough - did we decide > to allow upgrades when retargeting? Francois has another thread on this. -Jonathan R. -- Jonathan D. Rosenberg, Ph.D. 600 Lanidex Plaza Cisco Fellow Parsippany, NJ 07054-2711 Cisco Systems jdrosen@cisco.com FAX: (973) 952-5050 http://www.jdrosen.net PHONE: (973) 952-5000 http://www.cisco.com _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 18:07:58 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMXtM-0007qP-Or; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:07:24 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMXtL-0007q6-5B for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:07:23 -0500 Received: from nylon.softarmor.com ([66.135.38.164]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMXtF-0006tl-Gd for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:07:23 -0500 Received: from [64.101.172.114] ([64.101.172.114]) (authenticated bits=0) by nylon.softarmor.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l1SMCpbu020703 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:12:52 -0600 In-Reply-To: <45E6087E.3030408@cisco.com> References: <45E6087E.3030408@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <28A08F76-9339-45E5-BFA8-CAD2EB3D5081@softarmor.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Dean Willis Subject: Re: [Sip] Re: Question on 3840 terminology in answermode draft Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:06:54 -0600 To: Jonathan Rosenberg X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Cc: SIP IETF , Andrew Allen , Keith Drage X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org On Feb 28, 2007, at 4:55 PM, Jonathan Rosenberg wrote: > I would suggest: > > "... a UA includes the extensions Contact header field parameter =20 > with a value that includes answermode: > > ;extensions=3D"answermode" > > ok, my text now has this as: > 4.1.1.2. REGISTER Transactions > > To indicate that it supports the answer-mode negotiation feature, a =20= > UA includes an extensions parameter with a value that includes =20 > "answermode": > > ;extensions=3D"answermode" > > in the Contact: header field of its REGISTER requests. This usage =20 > of feature tags is described in [7] (Rosenberg, J., Schulzrinne, =20 > H., and P. Kyzivat, =93Indicating User Agent Capabilities in the =20 > Session Initiation Protocol (SIP),=94 August 2004.). Does that parse OK? -- Dean _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 18:36:27 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMYJC-0006he-HZ; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:34:06 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMYJB-0006hZ-6W for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:34:05 -0500 Received: from rtp-iport-2.cisco.com ([64.102.122.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMYJ8-000157-Ot for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:34:05 -0500 Received: from rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com ([64.102.121.159]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 28 Feb 2007 18:34:03 -0500 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.14,232,1170651600"; d="scan'208"; a="114690517:sNHT54967184" Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com (rtp-core-2.cisco.com [64.102.124.13]) by rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l1SNY2IL027257; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:34:02 -0500 Received: from xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-211.cisco.com [64.102.31.102]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l1SNXsOA011744; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:34:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.38]) by xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:33:53 -0500 Received: from [161.44.174.118] ([161.44.174.118]) by xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:33:53 -0500 Message-ID: <45E61160.2070806@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:33:52 -0500 From: Paul Kyzivat User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (Windows/20061207) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathan Rosenberg Subject: Re: [Sip] Re: Question on 3840 terminology in answermode draft References: <45E6087E.3030408@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <45E6087E.3030408@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Feb 2007 23:33:53.0359 (UTC) FILETIME=[E844CDF0:01C75B90] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=4636; t=1172705642; x=1173569642; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=pkyzivat@cisco.com; z=From:=20Paul=20Kyzivat=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[Sip]=20Re=3A=20Question=20on=203840=20terminology=20 in=20answermode=20draft |Sender:=20 |To:=20Jonathan=20Rosenberg=20; bh=2VYVoxpvs+5z+afI6CaNEXVbN1PjRVxmRSUp2/LeGMQ=; b=Q9AyK574QclTvjyOFUBUU1JOdf/Fh85Zv5l+LxORCew8RhJs22beVXAn0xKOTyHeNSZBJRer QKkNKMqYW+I6EfZM2neL+VMnn29WnOvqj0qE+dxTbvVVd4MSvZz9xPc6; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-2; header.From=pkyzivat@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim2001 verified; ); X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 36b1f8810cb91289d885dc8ab4fc8172 Cc: SIP IETF , Andrew Allen , Keith Drage , Dean Willis X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org Dean, Jonathan Rosenberg wrote: > I would suggest: > > "... a UA includes the extensions Contact header field parameter with a > value that includes answermode: > > ;extensions="answermode" The above seems ok to me, though maybe it would be good to show with other options and make clear this is is an example: ... value that includes answermode. E.g.: ;extensions="100rel,answermode,gruu" The intent is that valid values of the extensions feature tag should be values that are permitted to be used in a Supported or Required header. RFC 3427 defines the iana registry for those and the rules for extending it. You've included the iana considerations to define answermode as a new option, so the example should be legal. Paul > -Jonathan R. > > > Dean Willis wrote: > >> >> ok, I'm stuck. >> >> >> >> Keith's draft PROTO writeup for draft-ietf-sip-answermode-01 says: >> >>> Section 4.1.2 of the document indicates the existence of an >>> "answermode" SIP extension feature tag. First, although the >>> reference given is RFC 3840, this document does not use the >>> terminology of "SIP extension feature tag". Secondly it is assumed >>> that any new feature tag carries some form of IANA registration >>> requirements which do not appear to be made. >> >> >> >> in reference to document text, which currently says: >> >>> 4.1.2. REGISTER Transactions >>> >>> To indicate that it supports the answer-mode negotiation feature, a >>> UA includes a SIP extension feature tag of: >>> >>> extensions="answermode" >>> >>> in the Contact: header field of its REGISTER requests. This usage of >>> feature tags is described in [7] (Rosenberg, J., Schulzrinne, H., >>> and P. Kyzivat, “Indicating User Agent Capabilities in the Session >>> Initiation Protocol (SIP),” August 2004.). >> >> >> >> I'm not exactly sure how to resolve this and need guidance from the >> WG on how it should be documented. >> >> As I understand it, RFC 3840 defines the sip.extensions feature tag >> as follows: >> >> 10.15. Extensions >> >> Media feature tag name: sip.extensions >> >> ASN.1 Identifier: 1.3.6.1.8.4.15 >> >> Summary of the media feature indicated by this tag: Each value of the >> sip.extensions feature tag (note the plurality) is a SIP extension >> (each of which is defined by an option-tag registered with IANA) >> that is understood by the UA. Understood, in this context, means >> that the option tag would be included in a Supported header field >> in a request. >> >> Values appropriate for use with this feature tag: Token with an >> equality relationship. Values are taken from the option tags >> table in the IANA SIP parameters registry. >> >> The feature tag is intended primarily for use in the following >> applications, protocols, services, or negotiation mechanisms: This >> feature tag is most useful in a communications application for >> describing the capabilities of a device, such as a phone or PDA. >> >> Examples of typical use: Choosing to communicate with a phone that >> supports quality of service preconditions instead of one that does >> not. >> >> >> The SIP extensions feature tag refers to extensions by their option >> tags. The answermode draft defines an options tag: >> >> 8.3. Registration of SIP Option Tags >> >> This document defines the SIP option tag "answermode". >> >> The following row shall be added to the "Option Tags" section of the >> SIP Parameter Registry: >> Name Description Reference >> answermode This option tag is for [RFCXXXX] >> support of the Answer-Mode >> and Priv-Answer-Mode >> extensions used to >> negotiate automatic or >> manual answering of a >> request. >> >> Editor Note: [RFCXXXX] should be replaced with the designation of >> this document. >> >> >> >> >> So, what's not clear? Is it "SIP extension feature tag" instead of >> "sip.extensions feature tag"? What's the preferred construction? >> >> >> -- >> Dean >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip >> This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol >> Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip >> Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip >> > _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip From sip-bounces@ietf.org Wed Feb 28 19:56:25 2007 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMZYc-0006Fo-No; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 19:54:06 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMZYb-0006Fb-3p for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 19:54:05 -0500 Received: from sccrmhc11.comcast.net ([204.127.200.81]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1HMZYZ-00054j-Hl for sip@ietf.org; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 19:54:05 -0500 Received: from dragon.ariadne.com (dworley.hsd1.ma.comcast.net[24.34.79.42]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc11) with ESMTP id <2007030100533901100kg8cne>; Thu, 1 Mar 2007 00:53:59 +0000 Received: from dragon.ariadne.com (dragon.ariadne.com [127.0.0.1]) by dragon.ariadne.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id l1SNPsWc024328 for ; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:25:54 -0500 Received: (from worley@localhost) by dragon.ariadne.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id l1SNPs98024324; Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:25:54 -0500 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:25:54 -0500 Message-Id: <200702282325.l1SNPs98024324@dragon.ariadne.com> From: Dale.Worley@comcast.net To: sip@ietf.org In-reply-to: (Vishnu.Yadav@aricent.com) Subject: Re: [Sip] Knowing status of sent message References: X-Spam-Score: 0.2 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d X-BeenThere: sip@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Session Initiation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: sip-bounces@ietf.org From: Vishnu.Yadav@aricent.com intermediate proxies can send 202 . In MESSAGE case 200 -> implies that the Msg has reached to destination 202 -> that proxy has recvd it & will frwrded it towards final destination vishnu As Byron pointed out, no absolutely not, a proxy can't send 202, only a user agent. But various sorts of intermediate server can be (from the SIP point of view) user agents. The response codes are discussed in RFC 3428: If the UAC receives a 200 OK response to a MESSAGE request, it may assume the message has been delivered to the final destination. It MUST NOT assume that the recipient has actually read the instant message. If the UAC receives a 202 Accepted response, the message has been delivered to a gateway, store and forward server, or some other service that may eventually deliver the message. In this case, the UAC MUST NOT assume the message has been delivered to the final destination. If confirmation of delivery is required for a message that has been responded to with a 202 Accepted, that confirmation must be delivered via some other mechanism, which is beyond the scope of this specification. Dale _______________________________________________ Sip mailing list https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip This list is for NEW development of the core SIP Protocol Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip Use sipping@ietf.org for new developments on the application of sip