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Subject: [Slim] I-D Action: draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-01.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Selection of Language for Internet Media of the IETF.

        Title           : Multiple Language Content Type
        Authors         : Nik Tomkinson
                          Nathaniel Borenstein
	Filename        : draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-01.txt
	Pages           : 15
	Date            : 2016-07-08

Abstract:
   This document defines an addition to the Multipurpose Internet Mail
   Extensions (MIME) standard to make it possible to send one message
   that contains multiple language versions of the same information.
   The translations would be identified by a language tag and selected
   by the email client based on a user's language settings.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-01

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-01


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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To: Gunnar =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hellstr=F6m?=  <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>, Brian Rosen <br@brianrosen.net>
From: Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>
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Subject: Re: [Slim] Seeking rough consensus for draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
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Hi Gunnar,

As I see it, you're asking for a higher-level=20
capability rather than the lower-level=20
language-per-media mechanism we've been working=20
on.  Rather than force it into the current=20
real-time draft, I suggest a new draft=20
specifically for the functionality you want.  If=20
the group agrees that this functionality is=20
needed, and agrees on a proposed mechanism to=20
accomplish it, it should be compatible with the=20
current real-time draft, so the two wouldn't=20
interfere at all.

--Randy

At 12:18 AM +0200 6/9/16, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m wrote:

>  I would like to have some acceptance for the=20
> needs expressed by me, 3GPP and ETSI.
>
>  That is:
>
>  A simple mechanism to specify preference for=20
> language within the session instead of only per=20
> media. ( clearly required by 3GPP TS 22.228 )
>
>  A simple mechanism to tell when the most=20
> desirable outcome is to be provided with two=20
> languages/modalities together rather than the=20
> general case when one selected language for the=20
> main language communication is sufficient.
>
>  I have provided some solutions and simplified=20
> compromises to solve these needs in the most=20
> limited fashion that also satisfies most=20
> applications.
>
>  I have seen many responses diving into=20
> discussions of media acceptance and media=20
> negotiation depending on language negotiation=20
> outcome. I think it would be good to clarify=20
> that the intention of language specification is=20
> not primarily to support offer/answer decisions=20
> on media session establishment, but rather for=20
> application support and user guidance.
>
>  It is quite similar in level to the intended=20
> use of the SDP Content attribute specified in=20
> RFC 4796.
>
>  I see a clear risk that implementations hoping=20
> for progress in SLIM as promising sign that a=20
> solution is on its way will lose the hope and=20
> cause fragmentation by selecting various=20
> solutions based on different existing=20
> specifications complemented by coding=20
> assumptions.
>
>  Can we move on and have a new version done well=20
> in time before the coming IETF meeting? Also=20
> including the promised and proposed=20
> modifications of other kinds?
>
>  /Gunnar
>
>
>
>  Den 2016-05-17 kl. 18:05, skrev Brian Rosen:
>
>>  Like Randall, I want to stay away from a=20
>> linkage between what languages you prefer and=20
>> what media you are offering.
>>
>
>>
>>  I want to stay with the long standing SDP=20
>> negotiation that you offer media you want to=20
>> use, and and or all of that media can be=20
>> accepted.
>>
>>  I want our work to build on that, not change=20
>> it, so that we can indicate, for the media=20
>> accepted, what language is preferred.
>>
>>  I further don't want to link a preference of=20
>> language on one media to the preference of=20
>> language on another media. I want them=20
>> independent: if audio and text are offered and=20
>> answered, then language on audio is specified,=20
>> and language on text is specified, and those=20
>> don't interact.
>>
>>  I think living with those restrictions will=20
>> make implementations easier, and won't limit=20
>> use much.
>>
>>  Adding more complexity at this point is, I think, not worth it.
>>
>>  Brian
>>
>>>  On May 17, 2016, at 2:01 AM, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m=20
>>> <<mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>=20
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>  Randall,
>>>
>>>  Can you accept that our goal is to select the=20
>>> most appropriate language(s) for the call?
>>>
>>>  This includes providing guidance to the=20
>>> answering part so that the answer can be made=20
>>> in the most appropriate language(s).
>>>
>>>  That is stated in the charter:
>>>
>>>  "While the two use cases are in different contexts (real time and
>>>  non-real-time), the fundamental goal is the same: to enable selection o=
f
>>>  the best-fit language(s) for a specific situation. "
>>>
>>>  It is not sufficient to use the indications=20
>>> to select which media shall be enabled, and=20
>>> then let the users sort out which language to=20
>>> use.
>>>
>>>  The user needs guidance if it is most=20
>>> appropriate to start the conversation in=20
>>> voice, sign language or text or a combination=20
>>> of these modalities. If not, the call will=20
>>> start with confusion about what is the most=20
>>> efficient means for them to communicate.
>>>
>>>  That is why the preference indication needs to have:
>>>
>>>  a) a common scope over all media, and
>>>
>>>  b) an indication if two modalities=20
>>> simultaneously are desired for reception.
>>>
>>>  Can we agree on that and move on to find a=20
>>> simple way of expressing these needs?
>>>
>>>  /Gunnar
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Den 2016-05-17 kl. 05:25, skrev Randall Gellens:
>>>
>>>>  At 8:28 PM -0600 5/16/16, Doug Ewell wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  Except that there is still disagreement on=20
>>>>> whether the mechanism is needed for SLIM=20
>>>>> 1.0.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  And we have a call for consensus by the chairs.
>>>>
>>>
>>>  --
>>>  -----------------------------------------
>>>  Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
>>>  Omnitor
>>>  <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>>  +46 708 204 288
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>  SLIM mailing list
>>>  <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>SLIM@ietf.org
>>>=20
>>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>https://www.ietf.org/mailman=
/listinfo/slim
>>>
>>
>
>  --
>  -----------------------------------------
>  Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
>  Omnitor
>  <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>  +46 708 204 288
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  SLIM mailing list
>  SLIM@ietf.org
>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim


-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
When in doubt, use brute force.
        --Ken Thompson


From nobody Sun Jul 17 13:57:02 2016
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To: Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>, Brian Rosen <br@brianrosen.net>
References: <20160516083958.665a7a7059d7ee80bb4d670165c8327d.5e281af085.wbe@email0 3.godaddy.com> <b5f82738-9b0c-4493-b241-3c5d0bfe34e4@omnitor.se> <7C5A334F88FD45E0A7770AFA6CB33C82@DougEwell> <p06240600d3603faa0f77@[99.111.97.136]> <57289c9f-a63a-0466-eeb7-845f1f1421ae@omnitor.se> <D5B3F743-52CA-4627-AE86-37ACEAE58BD9@brianrosen.net> <9f44b042-2d8b-1bb8-fd20-f037650ac4e2@omnitor.se> <p06240603d3b1618fd7f4@[10.199.14.19]>
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gunnar_Hellstr=c3=b6m?= <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>
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Subject: Re: [Slim] Seeking rough consensus for draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
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Hi Randy,
Den 2016-07-17 kl. 18:29, skrev Randall Gellens:
> Hi Gunnar,
>
> As I see it, you're asking for a higher-level capability rather than 
> the lower-level language-per-media mechanism we've been working on.
Maybe, but the per-media mechanism does not align with how the humans 
think. The use of the media are not unrelated, so you need to say how 
the languages in different media relate even if you do not want to go 
the whole way to specify relative priority and grouping between 
languages in different media.
>   Rather than force it into the current real-time draft, I suggest a 
> new draft specifically for the functionality you want.  If the group 
> agrees that this functionality is needed, and agrees on a proposed 
> mechanism to accomplish it, it should be compatible with the current 
> real-time draft, so the two wouldn't interfere at all.
If we need to take that step, you must agree to complete the work to 
make the current draft clear on some points related to multiple language 
specifications. We started a main exchange under the title "[Slim] 
Wording about selection in 
draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-01" where you agreed to do 
something to a few fuzzy places in the draft, but we never agreed on 
suitable wording. The mail thread ended on April 10 without a conclusion 
on suitable wording.

Without that, we have no firm ground for further work.

An example is the current wording in 6.2:
"

Clients acting on behalf of end users are expected to set one or both

'humintlang-send' and 'humintlang-recv' attributes on each media

stream primarily intended for human communication in an offer when

placing an outgoing session."


A) In one use case a person prefers to use spoken English for the call, 
but want to express that a text conversation in English can be accepted 
as a less favoured alternative.

B) In another use case a person want to talk English, and need to 
receive text because of a limitation in hearing, but still has some use 
of getting English speech. The person can also accept to type instead of 
speaking, but would not really prefer that.


These use cases both result in a need to specify sending and receiving 
in English in both audio and text media.
It is only the preferences and urgency to use the different media that 
differs.

Do you mean that the current draft supports describing any of these use 
cases?
If so, which?

Or what would a specification of English in both directions for both 
audio and text mean? Would it mean that all four must be used 
simultaneously?

The discussion we were involved in up to 10 April was intended to get 
the wording in this area a bit more clear, but I do not think we get 
this completely clarified until we describe relative priority between 
languages in different modalities.

I am composing a presentation with issues in current draft, and some 
other topics.
Looking forward to the meeting and progress in Slim.

Gunnar




>
> --Randy
>
> At 12:18 AM +0200 6/9/16, Gunnar Hellström wrote:
>
>>  I would like to have some acceptance for the needs expressed by me, 
>> 3GPP and ETSI.
>>
>>  That is:
>>
>>  A simple mechanism to specify preference for language within the 
>> session instead of only per media. ( clearly required by 3GPP TS 
>> 22.228 )
>>
>>  A simple mechanism to tell when the most desirable outcome is to be 
>> provided with two languages/modalities together rather than the 
>> general case when one selected language for the main language 
>> communication is sufficient.
>>
>>  I have provided some solutions and simplified compromises to solve 
>> these needs in the most limited fashion that also satisfies most 
>> applications.
>>
>>  I have seen many responses diving into discussions of media 
>> acceptance and media negotiation depending on language negotiation 
>> outcome. I think it would be good to clarify that the intention of 
>> language specification is not primarily to support offer/answer 
>> decisions on media session establishment, but rather for application 
>> support and user guidance.
>>
>>  It is quite similar in level to the intended use of the SDP Content 
>> attribute specified in RFC 4796.
>>
>>  I see a clear risk that implementations hoping for progress in SLIM 
>> as promising sign that a solution is on its way will lose the hope 
>> and cause fragmentation by selecting various solutions based on 
>> different existing specifications complemented by coding assumptions.
>>
>>  Can we move on and have a new version done well in time before the 
>> coming IETF meeting? Also including the promised and proposed 
>> modifications of other kinds?
>>
>>  /Gunnar
>>
>>
>>
>>  Den 2016-05-17 kl. 18:05, skrev Brian Rosen:
>>
>>>  Like Randall, I want to stay away from a linkage between what 
>>> languages you prefer and what media you are offering.
>>>
>>
>>>
>>>  I want to stay with the long standing SDP negotiation that you 
>>> offer media you want to use, and and or all of that media can be 
>>> accepted.
>>>
>>>  I want our work to build on that, not change it, so that we can 
>>> indicate, for the media accepted, what language is preferred.
>>>
>>>  I further don't want to link a preference of language on one media 
>>> to the preference of language on another media. I want them 
>>> independent: if audio and text are offered and answered, then 
>>> language on audio is specified, and language on text is specified, 
>>> and those don't interact.
>>>
>>>  I think living with those restrictions will make implementations 
>>> easier, and won't limit use much.
>>>
>>>  Adding more complexity at this point is, I think, not worth it.
>>>
>>>  Brian
>>>
>>>>  On May 17, 2016, at 2:01 AM, Gunnar Hellström 
>>>> <<mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  Randall,
>>>>
>>>>  Can you accept that our goal is to select the most appropriate 
>>>> language(s) for the call?
>>>>
>>>>  This includes providing guidance to the answering part so that the 
>>>> answer can be made in the most appropriate language(s).
>>>>
>>>>  That is stated in the charter:
>>>>
>>>>  "While the two use cases are in different contexts (real time and
>>>>  non-real-time), the fundamental goal is the same: to enable 
>>>> selection of
>>>>  the best-fit language(s) for a specific situation. "
>>>>
>>>>  It is not sufficient to use the indications to select which media 
>>>> shall be enabled, and then let the users sort out which language to 
>>>> use.
>>>>
>>>>  The user needs guidance if it is most appropriate to start the 
>>>> conversation in voice, sign language or text or a combination of 
>>>> these modalities. If not, the call will start with confusion about 
>>>> what is the most efficient means for them to communicate.
>>>>
>>>>  That is why the preference indication needs to have:
>>>>
>>>>  a) a common scope over all media, and
>>>>
>>>>  b) an indication if two modalities simultaneously are desired for 
>>>> reception.
>>>>
>>>>  Can we agree on that and move on to find a simple way of 
>>>> expressing these needs?
>>>>
>>>>  /Gunnar
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Den 2016-05-17 kl. 05:25, skrev Randall Gellens:
>>>>
>>>>>  At 8:28 PM -0600 5/16/16, Doug Ewell wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>  Except that there is still disagreement on whether the mechanism 
>>>>>> is needed for SLIM 1.0.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  And we have a call for consensus by the chairs.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  --
>>>>  -----------------------------------------
>>>>  Gunnar Hellström
>>>>  Omnitor
>>>>  <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>>>  +46 708 204 288
>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>  SLIM mailing list
>>>>  <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>SLIM@ietf.org
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>  --
>>  -----------------------------------------
>>  Gunnar Hellström
>>  Omnitor
>>  <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>  +46 708 204 288
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  SLIM mailing list
>>  SLIM@ietf.org
>>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>
>

-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
+46 708 204 288


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    Hi Randy,<br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Den 2016-07-17 kl. 18:29, skrev Randall
      Gellens:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:p06240603d3b1618fd7f4@[10.199.14.19]"
      type="cite">Hi Gunnar,
      <br>
      <br>
      As I see it, you're asking for a higher-level capability rather
      than the lower-level language-per-media mechanism we've been
      working on.</blockquote>
    Maybe, but the per-media mechanism does not align with how the
    humans think. The use of the media are not unrelated, so you need to
    say how the languages in different media relate even if you do not
    want to go the whole way to specify relative priority and grouping
    between languages in different media. <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:p06240603d3b1618fd7f4@[10.199.14.19]"
      type="cite">  Rather than force it into the current real-time
      draft, I suggest a new draft specifically for the functionality
      you want.  If the group agrees that this functionality is needed,
      and agrees on a proposed mechanism to accomplish it, it should be
      compatible with the current real-time draft, so the two wouldn't
      interfere at all.
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    If we need to take that step, you must agree to complete the work to
    make the current draft clear on some points related to multiple
    language specifications. We started a main exchange under the title
    "[Slim] Wording about selection in
    draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-01" where you agreed to
    do something to a few fuzzy places in the draft, but we never agreed
    on suitable wording. The mail thread ended on April 10 without a
    conclusion on suitable wording. <br>
    <br>
    Without that, we have no firm ground for further work. <br>
    <br>
    An example is the current wording in 6.2: <br>
    "
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        acting on behalf of end users are
        expected to set one or both<o:p></o:p></span></p>
    <p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;" lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">   </span>'humintlang-send'
        and 'humintlang-recv'
        attributes on each media<o:p></o:p></span></p>
    <p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;" lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">   </span>stream
        primarily intended for human
        communication in an offer when<o:p></o:p></span></p>
    <span
      style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
      New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:
      EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA"
      lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">   </span>placing an
      outgoing session."<br>
      <br>
      <br>
      A) In one use case a person prefers to use spoken English for the
      call, but want to express that a text conversation in English can
      be accepted as a less favoured alternative. <br>
      <br>
      B) In another use case a person want to talk English, and need to
      receive text because of a limitation in hearing, but still has
      some use of getting English speech. The person can also accept to
      type instead of speaking, but would not really prefer that.<br>
      <br>
      <br>
      These use cases both result in a need to specify sending and
      receiving in English in both audio and text media. </span><br>
    <span
      style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
      New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:
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      lang="EN-US"><span
        style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:
        EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA"
        lang="EN-US"> It is only the preferences and urgency to use the
        different media that differs. </span><br>
      <br>
      Do you mean that the current draft supports describing any of
      these use cases?<br>
      If so, which?<br>
      <br>
      Or what would a specification of English in both directions for
      both audio and text mean? Would it mean that all four must be used
      simultaneously? <br>
      <br>
      The discussion we were involved in up to 10 April was intended to
      get the wording in this area a bit more clear, but I do not think
      we get this completely clarified until we describe relative
      priority between languages in different modalities. <br>
      <br>
      I am composing a presentation with issues in current draft, and
      some other topics. <br>
      Looking forward to the meeting and progress in Slim.<br>
      <br>
      Gunnar<br>
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    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:p06240603d3b1618fd7f4@[10.199.14.19]"
      type="cite">
      <br>
      --Randy
      <br>
      <br>
      At 12:18 AM +0200 6/9/16, Gunnar Hellström wrote:
      <br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite"> I would like to have some acceptance for
        the needs expressed by me, 3GPP and ETSI.
        <br>
        <br>
         That is:
        <br>
        <br>
         A simple mechanism to specify preference for language within
        the session instead of only per media. ( clearly required by
        3GPP TS 22.228 )
        <br>
        <br>
         A simple mechanism to tell when the most desirable outcome is
        to be provided with two languages/modalities together rather
        than the general case when one selected language for the main
        language communication is sufficient.
        <br>
        <br>
         I have provided some solutions and simplified compromises to
        solve these needs in the most limited fashion that also
        satisfies most applications.
        <br>
        <br>
         I have seen many responses diving into discussions of media
        acceptance and media negotiation depending on language
        negotiation outcome. I think it would be good to clarify that
        the intention of language specification is not primarily to
        support offer/answer decisions on media session establishment,
        but rather for application support and user guidance.
        <br>
        <br>
         It is quite similar in level to the intended use of the SDP
        Content attribute specified in RFC 4796.
        <br>
        <br>
         I see a clear risk that implementations hoping for progress in
        SLIM as promising sign that a solution is on its way will lose
        the hope and cause fragmentation by selecting various solutions
        based on different existing specifications complemented by
        coding assumptions.
        <br>
        <br>
         Can we move on and have a new version done well in time before
        the coming IETF meeting? Also including the promised and
        proposed modifications of other kinds?
        <br>
        <br>
         /Gunnar
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
         Den 2016-05-17 kl. 18:05, skrev Brian Rosen:
        <br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type="cite"> Like Randall, I want to stay away from
          a linkage between what languages you prefer and what media you
          are offering.
          <br>
          <br>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <br>
           I want to stay with the long standing SDP negotiation that
          you offer media you want to use, and and or all of that media
          can be accepted.
          <br>
          <br>
           I want our work to build on that, not change it, so that we
          can indicate, for the media accepted, what language is
          preferred.
          <br>
          <br>
           I further don't want to link a preference of language on one
          media to the preference of language on another media. I want
          them independent: if audio and text are offered and answered,
          then language on audio is specified, and language on text is
          specified, and those don't interact.
          <br>
          <br>
           I think living with those restrictions will make
          implementations easier, and won't limit use much.
          <br>
          <br>
           Adding more complexity at this point is, I think, not worth
          it.
          <br>
          <br>
           Brian
          <br>
          <br>
          <blockquote type="cite"> On May 17, 2016, at 2:01 AM, Gunnar
            Hellström
&lt;<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">&lt;mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se&gt;</a><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>&gt;
            wrote:
            <br>
            <br>
             Randall,
            <br>
            <br>
             Can you accept that our goal is to select the most
            appropriate language(s) for the call?
            <br>
            <br>
             This includes providing guidance to the answering part so
            that the answer can be made in the most appropriate
            language(s).
            <br>
            <br>
             That is stated in the charter:
            <br>
            <br>
             "While the two use cases are in different contexts (real
            time and
            <br>
             non-real-time), the fundamental goal is the same: to enable
            selection of
            <br>
             the best-fit language(s) for a specific situation. "
            <br>
            <br>
             It is not sufficient to use the indications to select which
            media shall be enabled, and then let the users sort out
            which language to use.
            <br>
            <br>
             The user needs guidance if it is most appropriate to start
            the conversation in voice, sign language or text or a
            combination of these modalities. If not, the call will start
            with confusion about what is the most efficient means for
            them to communicate.
            <br>
            <br>
             That is why the preference indication needs to have:
            <br>
            <br>
             a) a common scope over all media, and
            <br>
            <br>
             b) an indication if two modalities simultaneously are
            desired for reception.
            <br>
            <br>
             Can we agree on that and move on to find a simple way of
            expressing these needs?
            <br>
            <br>
             /Gunnar
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
             Den 2016-05-17 kl. 05:25, skrev Randall Gellens:
            <br>
            <br>
            <blockquote type="cite"> At 8:28 PM -0600 5/16/16, Doug
              Ewell wrote:
              <br>
              <br>
              <blockquote type="cite"> Except that there is still
                disagreement on whether the mechanism is needed for SLIM
                1.0.
                <br>
                <br>
              </blockquote>
              <br>
               And we have a call for consensus by the chairs.
              <br>
              <br>
            </blockquote>
            <br>
             --
            <br>
             -----------------------------------------
            <br>
             Gunnar Hellström
            <br>
             Omnitor
            <br>
 <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">&lt;mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se&gt;</a><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>
            <br>
             +46 708 204 288
            <br>
             _______________________________________________
            <br>
             SLIM mailing list
            <br>
             <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:SLIM@ietf.org">&lt;mailto:SLIM@ietf.org&gt;</a><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:SLIM@ietf.org">SLIM@ietf.org</a>
            <br>
            <br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim">&lt;https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim&gt;</a><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a>
            <br>
            <br>
          </blockquote>
          <br>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
         --
        <br>
         -----------------------------------------
        <br>
         Gunnar Hellström
        <br>
         Omnitor
        <br>
 <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">&lt;mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se&gt;</a><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>
        <br>
         +46 708 204 288
        <br>
        <br>
         _______________________________________________
        <br>
         SLIM mailing list
        <br>
         <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:SLIM@ietf.org">SLIM@ietf.org</a>
        <br>
         <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a>
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>
+46 708 204 288</pre>
  </body>
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Subject: Re: [Slim] Seeking rough consensus for draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
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On Jul 17, 2016, at 22:56, Gunnar Hellstr=C3=B6m <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.s=
e> wrote:
> These use cases both result in a need to specify sending and receiving in E=
nglish in both audio and text media.=20
> It is only the preferences and urgency to use the different media that dif=
fers.=20
>=20
> Do you mean that the current draft supports describing any of these use ca=
ses?

[BA] The current draft enables the language capabilities for each media to b=
e expressed and negotiated in each direction. This enables media preference t=
o be expressed and implemented subsequently (either through conversation or b=
y a yet unspecified mechanism).

> Or what would a specification of English in both directions for both audio=
 and text mean? Would it mean that all four must be used simultaneously?=20

[BA] It means that the capability to use those languages bidirectionally has=
 been negotiated - no usage obligation.=20

> The discussion we were involved in up to 10 April was intended to get the w=
ording in this area a bit more clear, but I do not think we get this complet=
ely clarified until we describe relative priority between languages in diffe=
rent modalities.=20
>=20
> I am composing a presentation with issues in current draft, and some other=
 topics.=20
> Looking forward to the meeting and progress in Slim.
>=20
> Gunnar
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> --Randy=20
>>=20
>> At 12:18 AM +0200 6/9/16, Gunnar Hellstr=C3=B6m wrote:=20
>>=20
>>>  I would like to have some acceptance for the needs expressed by me, 3GP=
P and ETSI.=20
>>>=20
>>>  That is:=20
>>>=20
>>>  A simple mechanism to specify preference for language within the sessio=
n instead of only per media. ( clearly required by 3GPP TS 22.228 )=20
>>>=20
>>>  A simple mechanism to tell when the most desirable outcome is to be pro=
vided with two languages/modalities together rather than the general case wh=
en one selected language for the main language communication is sufficient.=20=

>>>=20
>>>  I have provided some solutions and simplified compromises to solve thes=
e needs in the most limited fashion that also satisfies most applications.=20=

>>>=20
>>>  I have seen many responses diving into discussions of media acceptance a=
nd media negotiation depending on language negotiation outcome. I think it w=
ould be good to clarify that the intention of language specification is not p=
rimarily to support offer/answer decisions on media session establishment, b=
ut rather for application support and user guidance.=20
>>>=20
>>>  It is quite similar in level to the intended use of the SDP Content att=
ribute specified in RFC 4796.=20
>>>=20
>>>  I see a clear risk that implementations hoping for progress in SLIM as p=
romising sign that a solution is on its way will lose the hope and cause fra=
gmentation by selecting various solutions         based on different existin=
g specifications complemented by coding assumptions.=20
>>>=20
>>>  Can we move on and have a new version done well in time before the comi=
ng IETF meeting? Also including the promised and proposed modifications of o=
ther kinds?=20
>>>=20
>>>  /Gunnar=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>  Den 2016-05-17 kl. 18:05, skrev Brian Rosen:=20
>>>=20
>>>>  Like Randall, I want to stay away from a linkage between what language=
s you prefer and what media you are offering.
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>  I want to stay with the long standing SDP negotiation that you offer m=
edia you want to use, and and or all of that media can be accepted.=20
>>>>=20
>>>>  I want our work to build on that, not change it, so that we can indica=
te, for the media accepted, what language is preferred.=20
>>>>=20
>>>>  I further don't want to link a preference of language on one media to t=
he preference of language on another media. I want them independent: if audi=
o and text are offered and answered, then language on audio is specified, an=
d language on text is specified, and those don't interact.=20
>>>>=20
>>>>  I think living with those restrictions will make implementations easie=
r, and won't limit use much.=20
>>>>=20
>>>>  Adding more complexity at this point is, I think, not worth it.=20
>>>>=20
>>>>  Brian=20
>>>>=20
>>>>>  On May 17, 2016, at 2:01 AM, Gunnar Hellstr=C3=B6m <<mailto:gunnar.he=
llstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se> wrote:=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>  Randall,=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>  Can you accept that our goal is to select the most appropriate langua=
ge(s) for the call?=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>  This includes providing guidance to the answering part so that the an=
swer can be made in the most appropriate language(s).=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>  That is stated in the charter:=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>  "While the two use cases are in different contexts (real time and=20
>>>>>  non-real-time), the fundamental goal is the same: to enable selection=
 of=20
>>>>>  the best-fit language(s) for a specific situation. "=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>  It is not sufficient to use the indications to select which media sha=
ll be enabled, and then let the users sort out which language to use.=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>  The user needs guidance if it is most appropriate to start the conver=
sation in voice, sign language or text or a combination of these modalities.=
 If not, the call will start with confusion about what is the most efficient=
 means for them to communicate.=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>  That is why the preference indication needs to have:=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>  a) a common scope over all media, and=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>  b) an indication if two modalities simultaneously are desired for rec=
eption.=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>  Can we agree on that and move on to find a simple way of expressing t=
hese needs?=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>  /Gunnar=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>  Den 2016-05-17 kl. 05:25, skrev Randall Gellens:=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>>  At 8:28 PM -0600 5/16/16, Doug Ewell wrote:=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>  Except that there is still disagreement on whether the mechanism is=
 needed for SLIM 1.0.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>  And we have a call for consensus by the chairs.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>  --=20
>>>>>  -----------------------------------------=20
>>>>>  Gunnar Hellstr=C3=B6m=20
>>>>>  Omnitor=20
>>>>>  <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se=20
>>>>>  +46 708 204 288=20
>>>>>  _______________________________________________=20
>>>>>  SLIM mailing list=20
>>>>>  <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>SLIM@ietf.org=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>https://www.ietf.org/mailm=
an/listinfo/slim
>>>=20
>>>  --=20
>>>  -----------------------------------------=20
>>>  Gunnar Hellstr=C3=B6m=20
>>>  Omnitor=20
>>>  <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se=20
>>>  +46 708 204 288=20
>>>=20
>>>  _______________________________________________=20
>>>  SLIM mailing list=20
>>>  SLIM@ietf.org=20
>>>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>=20
> --=20
> -----------------------------------------
> Gunnar Hellstr=C3=B6m
> Omnitor
> gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
> +46 708 204 288
> _______________________________________________
> SLIM mailing list
> SLIM@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim

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	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div></div><div>On Jul 17, 2016, at 22:56, G=
unnar Hellstr=C3=B6m &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunn=
ar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>&gt; wrote:</div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><=
span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
      New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-=
language:
      EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">
      These use cases both result in a need to specify sending and
      receiving in English in both audio and text media. </span><br>
    <span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er
      New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-=
language:
      EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang=3D"EN-U=
S"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courie=
r
        New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-=
language:
        EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang=3D"EN=
-US"> It is only the preferences and urgency to use the
        different media that differs. </span><br>
      <br>
      Do you mean that the current draft supports describing any of
      these use cases?<br></span></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[BA]=
 The current draft enables the language capabilities for each media to be ex=
pressed and negotiated in each direction. This enables media preference to b=
e expressed and implemented subsequently (either through conversation or by a=
 yet unspecified mechanism).</div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><=
div><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Couri=
er
      New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-=
language:
      EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang=3D"EN-U=
S">Or what would a specification of English in both directions for
      both audio and text mean? Would it mean that all four must be used
      simultaneously? <br></span></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>[BA]=
 It means that the capability to use those languages bidirectionally has bee=
n negotiated - no usage obligation.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><blockquote ty=
pe=3D"cite"><div><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-famil=
y:&quot;Courier
      New&quot;;
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S">The discussion we were involved in up to 10 April was intended to
      get the wording in this area a bit more clear, but I do not think
      we get this completely clarified until we describe relative
      priority between languages in different modalities. <br>
      <br>
      I am composing a presentation with issues in current draft, and
      some other topics. <br>
      Looking forward to the meeting and progress in Slim.<br>
      <br>
      Gunnar<br>
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  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"tru=
e"
   Name=3D"Table Grid 8"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"tru=
e"
   Name=3D"Table List 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"tru=
e"
   Name=3D"Table List 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"tru=
e"
   Name=3D"Table List 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"tru=
e"
   Name=3D"Table List 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"tru=
e"
   Name=3D"Table List 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"tru=
e"
   Name=3D"Table List 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"tru=
e"
   Name=3D"Table List 7"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"tru=
e"
   Name=3D"Table List 8"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"tru=
e"
   Name=3D"Table 3D effects 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"tru=
e"
   Name=3D"Table 3D effects 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"tru=
e"
   Name=3D"Table 3D effects 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"tru=
e"
   Name=3D"Table Contemporary"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"tru=
e"
   Name=3D"Table Elegant"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"tru=
e"
   Name=3D"Table Professional"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"tru=
e"
   Name=3D"Table Subtle 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"tru=
e"
   Name=3D"Table Subtle 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"tru=
e"
   Name=3D"Table Web 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"tru=
e"
   Name=3D"Table Web 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"tru=
e"
   Name=3D"Table Web 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"tru=
e"
   Name=3D"Balloon Text"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"39" Name=3D"Table Grid"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"tru=
e"
   Name=3D"Table Theme"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" Name=3D"Placeholder T=
ext"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"1" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"N=
o Spacing"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"60" Name=3D"Light Shading"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"61" Name=3D"Light List"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"62" Name=3D"Light Grid"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"63" Name=3D"Medium Shading 1"=
/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"64" Name=3D"Medium Shading 2"=
/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"65" Name=3D"Medium List 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"66" Name=3D"Medium List 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"67" Name=3D"Medium Grid 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"68" Name=3D"Medium Grid 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"69" Name=3D"Medium Grid 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"70" Name=3D"Dark List"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"71" Name=3D"Colorful Shading"=
/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"72" Name=3D"Colorful List"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"73" Name=3D"Colorful Grid"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"60" Name=3D"Light Shading Acc=
ent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"61" Name=3D"Light List Accent=
 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"62" Name=3D"Light Grid Accent=
 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"63" Name=3D"Medium Shading 1 A=
ccent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"64" Name=3D"Medium Shading 2 A=
ccent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"65" Name=3D"Medium List 1 Acc=
ent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" Name=3D"Revision"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"34" QFormat=3D"true"
   Name=3D"List Paragraph"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"29" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"=
Quote"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"30" QFormat=3D"true"
   Name=3D"Intense Quote"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"66" Name=3D"Medium List 2 Acc=
ent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"67" Name=3D"Medium Grid 1 Acc=
ent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"68" Name=3D"Medium Grid 2 Acc=
ent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"69" Name=3D"Medium Grid 3 Acc=
ent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"70" Name=3D"Dark List Accent 1=
"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"71" Name=3D"Colorful Shading A=
ccent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"72" Name=3D"Colorful List Acc=
ent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"73" Name=3D"Colorful Grid Acc=
ent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"60" Name=3D"Light Shading Acc=
ent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"61" Name=3D"Light List Accent=
 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"62" Name=3D"Light Grid Accent=
 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"63" Name=3D"Medium Shading 1 A=
ccent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"64" Name=3D"Medium Shading 2 A=
ccent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"65" Name=3D"Medium List 1 Acc=
ent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"66" Name=3D"Medium List 2 Acc=
ent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"67" Name=3D"Medium Grid 1 Acc=
ent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"68" Name=3D"Medium Grid 2 Acc=
ent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"69" Name=3D"Medium Grid 3 Acc=
ent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"70" Name=3D"Dark List Accent 2=
"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"71" Name=3D"Colorful Shading A=
ccent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"72" Name=3D"Colorful List Acc=
ent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"73" Name=3D"Colorful Grid Acc=
ent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"60" Name=3D"Light Shading Acc=
ent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"61" Name=3D"Light List Accent=
 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"62" Name=3D"Light Grid Accent=
 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"63" Name=3D"Medium Shading 1 A=
ccent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"64" Name=3D"Medium Shading 2 A=
ccent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"65" Name=3D"Medium List 1 Acc=
ent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"66" Name=3D"Medium List 2 Acc=
ent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"67" Name=3D"Medium Grid 1 Acc=
ent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"68" Name=3D"Medium Grid 2 Acc=
ent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"69" Name=3D"Medium Grid 3 Acc=
ent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"70" Name=3D"Dark List Accent 3=
"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"71" Name=3D"Colorful Shading A=
ccent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"72" Name=3D"Colorful List Acc=
ent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"73" Name=3D"Colorful Grid Acc=
ent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"60" Name=3D"Light Shading Acc=
ent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"61" Name=3D"Light List Accent=
 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"62" Name=3D"Light Grid Accent=
 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"63" Name=3D"Medium Shading 1 A=
ccent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"64" Name=3D"Medium Shading 2 A=
ccent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"65" Name=3D"Medium List 1 Acc=
ent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"66" Name=3D"Medium List 2 Acc=
ent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"67" Name=3D"Medium Grid 1 Acc=
ent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"68" Name=3D"Medium Grid 2 Acc=
ent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"69" Name=3D"Medium Grid 3 Acc=
ent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"70" Name=3D"Dark List Accent 4=
"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"71" Name=3D"Colorful Shading A=
ccent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"72" Name=3D"Colorful List Acc=
ent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"73" Name=3D"Colorful Grid Acc=
ent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"60" Name=3D"Light Shading Acc=
ent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"61" Name=3D"Light List Accent=
 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"62" Name=3D"Light Grid Accent=
 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"63" Name=3D"Medium Shading 1 A=
ccent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"64" Name=3D"Medium Shading 2 A=
ccent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"65" Name=3D"Medium List 1 Acc=
ent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"66" Name=3D"Medium List 2 Acc=
ent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"67" Name=3D"Medium Grid 1 Acc=
ent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"68" Name=3D"Medium Grid 2 Acc=
ent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"69" Name=3D"Medium Grid 3 Acc=
ent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"70" Name=3D"Dark List Accent 5=
"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"71" Name=3D"Colorful Shading A=
ccent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"72" Name=3D"Colorful List Acc=
ent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"73" Name=3D"Colorful Grid Acc=
ent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"60" Name=3D"Light Shading Acc=
ent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"61" Name=3D"Light List Accent=
 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"62" Name=3D"Light Grid Accent=
 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"63" Name=3D"Medium Shading 1 A=
ccent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"64" Name=3D"Medium Shading 2 A=
ccent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"65" Name=3D"Medium List 1 Acc=
ent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"66" Name=3D"Medium List 2 Acc=
ent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"67" Name=3D"Medium Grid 1 Acc=
ent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"68" Name=3D"Medium Grid 2 Acc=
ent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"69" Name=3D"Medium Grid 3 Acc=
ent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"70" Name=3D"Dark List Accent 6=
"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"71" Name=3D"Colorful Shading A=
ccent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"72" Name=3D"Colorful List Acc=
ent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"73" Name=3D"Colorful Grid Acc=
ent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"19" QFormat=3D"true"
   Name=3D"Subtle Emphasis"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"21" QFormat=3D"true"
   Name=3D"Intense Emphasis"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"31" QFormat=3D"true"
   Name=3D"Subtle Reference"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"32" QFormat=3D"true"
   Name=3D"Intense Reference"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"33" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"=
Book Title"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"37" SemiHidden=3D"true"
   UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true" Name=3D"Bibliography"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"39" SemiHidden=3D"true"
   UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"TOC Heading"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"41" Name=3D"Plain Table 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"42" Name=3D"Plain Table 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"43" Name=3D"Plain Table 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"44" Name=3D"Plain Table 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"45" Name=3D"Plain Table 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"40" Name=3D"Grid Table Light"=
/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"46" Name=3D"Grid Table 1 Ligh=
t"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"47" Name=3D"Grid Table 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"48" Name=3D"Grid Table 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"49" Name=3D"Grid Table 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"50" Name=3D"Grid Table 5 Dark=
"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"51" Name=3D"Grid Table 6 Colo=
rful"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"52" Name=3D"Grid Table 7 Colo=
rful"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"46"
   Name=3D"Grid Table 1 Light Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"47" Name=3D"Grid Table 2 Acce=
nt 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"48" Name=3D"Grid Table 3 Acce=
nt 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"49" Name=3D"Grid Table 4 Acce=
nt 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"50" Name=3D"Grid Table 5 Dark=
 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"51"
   Name=3D"Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"52"
   Name=3D"Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"46"
   Name=3D"Grid Table 1 Light Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"47" Name=3D"Grid Table 2 Acce=
nt 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"48" Name=3D"Grid Table 3 Acce=
nt 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"49" Name=3D"Grid Table 4 Acce=
nt 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"50" Name=3D"Grid Table 5 Dark=
 Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"51"
   Name=3D"Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"52"
   Name=3D"Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"46"
   Name=3D"Grid Table 1 Light Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"47" Name=3D"Grid Table 2 Acce=
nt 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"48" Name=3D"Grid Table 3 Acce=
nt 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"49" Name=3D"Grid Table 4 Acce=
nt 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"50" Name=3D"Grid Table 5 Dark=
 Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"51"
   Name=3D"Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"52"
   Name=3D"Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"46"
   Name=3D"Grid Table 1 Light Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"47" Name=3D"Grid Table 2 Acce=
nt 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"48" Name=3D"Grid Table 3 Acce=
nt 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"49" Name=3D"Grid Table 4 Acce=
nt 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"50" Name=3D"Grid Table 5 Dark=
 Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"51"
   Name=3D"Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"52"
   Name=3D"Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"46"
   Name=3D"Grid Table 1 Light Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"47" Name=3D"Grid Table 2 Acce=
nt 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"48" Name=3D"Grid Table 3 Acce=
nt 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"49" Name=3D"Grid Table 4 Acce=
nt 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"50" Name=3D"Grid Table 5 Dark=
 Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"51"
   Name=3D"Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"52"
   Name=3D"Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"46"
   Name=3D"Grid Table 1 Light Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"47" Name=3D"Grid Table 2 Acce=
nt 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"48" Name=3D"Grid Table 3 Acce=
nt 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"49" Name=3D"Grid Table 4 Acce=
nt 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"50" Name=3D"Grid Table 5 Dark=
 Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"51"
   Name=3D"Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"52"
   Name=3D"Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"46" Name=3D"List Table 1 Ligh=
t"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"47" Name=3D"List Table 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"48" Name=3D"List Table 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"49" Name=3D"List Table 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"50" Name=3D"List Table 5 Dark=
"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"51" Name=3D"List Table 6 Colo=
rful"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"52" Name=3D"List Table 7 Colo=
rful"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"46"
   Name=3D"List Table 1 Light Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"47" Name=3D"List Table 2 Acce=
nt 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"48" Name=3D"List Table 3 Acce=
nt 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"49" Name=3D"List Table 4 Acce=
nt 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"50" Name=3D"List Table 5 Dark=
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    <br>
    <blockquote cite=3D"mid:p06240603d3b1618fd7f4@[10.199.14.19]" type=3D"ci=
te">
      <br>
      --Randy
      <br>
      <br>
      At 12:18 AM +0200 6/9/16, Gunnar Hellstr=C3=B6m wrote:
      <br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type=3D"cite">&nbsp;I would like to have some acceptance f=
or
        the needs expressed by me, 3GPP and ETSI.
        <br>
        <br>
        &nbsp;That is:
        <br>
        <br>
        &nbsp;A simple mechanism to specify preference for language within
        the session instead of only per media. ( clearly required by
        3GPP TS 22.228 )
        <br>
        <br>
        &nbsp;A simple mechanism to tell when the most desirable outcome is
        to be provided with two languages/modalities together rather
        than the general case when one selected language for the main
        language communication is sufficient.
        <br>
        <br>
        &nbsp;I have provided some solutions and simplified compromises to
        solve these needs in the most limited fashion that also
        satisfies most applications.
        <br>
        <br>
        &nbsp;I have seen many responses diving into discussions of media
        acceptance and media negotiation depending on language
        negotiation outcome. I think it would be good to clarify that
        the intention of language specification is not primarily to
        support offer/answer decisions on media session establishment,
        but rather for application support and user guidance.
        <br>
        <br>
        &nbsp;It is quite similar in level to the intended use of the SDP
        Content attribute specified in RFC 4796.
        <br>
        <br>
        &nbsp;I see a clear risk that implementations hoping for progress in=

        SLIM as promising sign that a solution is on its way will lose
        the hope and cause fragmentation by selecting various solutions
        based on different existing specifications complemented by
        coding assumptions.
        <br>
        <br>
        &nbsp;Can we move on and have a new version done well in time before=

        the coming IETF meeting? Also including the promised and
        proposed modifications of other kinds?
        <br>
        <br>
        &nbsp;/Gunnar
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        &nbsp;Den 2016-05-17 kl. 18:05, skrev Brian Rosen:
        <br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite">&nbsp;Like Randall, I want to stay away fr=
om
          a linkage between what languages you prefer and what media you
          are offering.
          <br>
          <br>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite">
          <br>
          &nbsp;I want to stay with the long standing SDP negotiation that
          you offer media you want to use, and and or all of that media
          can be accepted.
          <br>
          <br>
          &nbsp;I want our work to build on that, not change it, so that we
          can indicate, for the media accepted, what language is
          preferred.
          <br>
          <br>
          &nbsp;I further don't want to link a preference of language on one=

          media to the preference of language on another media. I want
          them independent: if audio and text are offered and answered,
          then language on audio is specified, and language on text is
          specified, and those don't interact.
          <br>
          <br>
          &nbsp;I think living with those restrictions will make
          implementations easier, and won't limit use much.
          <br>
          <br>
          &nbsp;Adding more complexity at this point is, I think, not worth
          it.
          <br>
          <br>
          &nbsp;Brian
          <br>
          <br>
          <blockquote type=3D"cite">&nbsp;On May 17, 2016, at 2:01 AM, Gunna=
r
            Hellstr=C3=B6m
&lt;<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnit=
or.se">&lt;mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se&gt;</a><a class=3D"moz-txt-lin=
k-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@=
omnitor.se</a>&gt;
            wrote:
            <br>
            <br>
            &nbsp;Randall,
            <br>
            <br>
            &nbsp;Can you accept that our goal is to select the most
            appropriate language(s) for the call?
            <br>
            <br>
            &nbsp;This includes providing guidance to the answering part so
            that the answer can be made in the most appropriate
            language(s).
            <br>
            <br>
            &nbsp;That is stated in the charter:
            <br>
            <br>
            &nbsp;"While the two use cases are in different contexts (real
            time and
            <br>
            &nbsp;non-real-time), the fundamental goal is the same: to enabl=
e
            selection of
            <br>
            &nbsp;the best-fit language(s) for a specific situation. "
            <br>
            <br>
            &nbsp;It is not sufficient to use the indications to select whic=
h
            media shall be enabled, and then let the users sort out
            which language to use.
            <br>
            <br>
            &nbsp;The user needs guidance if it is most appropriate to start=

            the conversation in voice, sign language or text or a
            combination of these modalities. If not, the call will start
            with confusion about what is the most efficient means for
            them to communicate.
            <br>
            <br>
            &nbsp;That is why the preference indication needs to have:
            <br>
            <br>
            &nbsp;a) a common scope over all media, and
            <br>
            <br>
            &nbsp;b) an indication if two modalities simultaneously are
            desired for reception.
            <br>
            <br>
            &nbsp;Can we agree on that and move on to find a simple way of
            expressing these needs?
            <br>
            <br>
            &nbsp;/Gunnar
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
            &nbsp;Den 2016-05-17 kl. 05:25, skrev Randall Gellens:
            <br>
            <br>
            <blockquote type=3D"cite">&nbsp;At 8:28 PM -0600 5/16/16, Doug
              Ewell wrote:
              <br>
              <br>
              <blockquote type=3D"cite">&nbsp;Except that there is still
                disagreement on whether the mechanism is needed for SLIM
                1.0.
                <br>
                <br>
              </blockquote>
              <br>
              &nbsp;And we have a call for consensus by the chairs.
              <br>
              <br>
            </blockquote>
            <br>
            &nbsp;--
            <br>
            &nbsp;-----------------------------------------
            <br>
            &nbsp;Gunnar Hellstr=C3=B6m
            <br>
            &nbsp;Omnitor
            <br>
&nbsp;<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omn=
itor.se">&lt;mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se&gt;</a><a class=3D"moz-txt-l=
ink-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstro=
m@omnitor.se</a>
            <br>
            &nbsp;+46 708 204 288
            <br>
            &nbsp;_______________________________________________
            <br>
            &nbsp;SLIM mailing list
            <br>
            &nbsp;<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:SLIM@iet=
f.org">&lt;mailto:SLIM@ietf.org&gt;</a><a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated"=
 href=3D"mailto:SLIM@ietf.org">SLIM@ietf.org</a>
            <br>
            <br>
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list=
info/slim">&lt;https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim&gt;</a><a class=3D=
"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a>
            <br>
            <br>
          </blockquote>
          <br>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
        &nbsp;--
        <br>
        &nbsp;-----------------------------------------
        <br>
        &nbsp;Gunnar Hellstr=C3=B6m
        <br>
        &nbsp;Omnitor
        <br>
&nbsp;<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omn=
itor.se">&lt;mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se&gt;</a><a class=3D"moz-txt-l=
ink-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstro=
m@omnitor.se</a>
        <br>
        &nbsp;+46 708 204 288
        <br>
        <br>
        &nbsp;_______________________________________________
        <br>
        &nbsp;SLIM mailing list
        <br>
        &nbsp;<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:SLIM@ietf=
.org">SLIM@ietf.org</a>
        <br>
        &nbsp;<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/slim">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a>
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <pre class=3D"moz-signature" cols=3D"72">--=20
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellstr=C3=B6m
Omnitor
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnito=
r.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>
+46 708 204 288</pre>
 =20

</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________=
___________________________</span><br><span>SLIM mailing list</span><br><spa=
n><a href=3D"mailto:SLIM@ietf.org">SLIM@ietf.org</a></span><br><span><a href=
=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim">https://www.ietf.org/mailman=
/listinfo/slim</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>=

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Den 2016-07-18 kl. 07:26, skrev Bernard Aboba:

> On Jul 17, 2016, at 22:56, Gunnar Hellström 
> <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>> wrote:
>> These use cases both result in a need to specify sending and 
>> receiving in English in both audio and text media.
>> It is only the preferences and urgency to use the different media 
>> that differs.
>>
>> Do you mean that the current draft supports describing any of these 
>> use cases?
>
> [BA] The current draft enables the language capabilities for each 
> media to be expressed and negotiated in each direction. This enables 
> media preference to be expressed and implemented subsequently (either 
> through conversation or by a yet unspecified mechanism).
I assume that you mean language preference, because there may be more 
than one language per media and there may be more than one media 
carrying language indications. And we have said that non-matching 
language indications should not be taken as a reason to not connect a 
medium.
>
>> Or what would a specification of English in both directions for both 
>> audio and text mean? Would it mean that all four must be used 
>> simultaneously?
>
> [BA] It means that the capability to use those languages 
> bidirectionally has been negotiated - no usage obligation.
OK, I have a presentation for the meeting where some wording is proposed 
to document that.
How about having usage obligation for the languages in the answer? Or at 
least for the ones with "-send" in the answer.

We should also add the sentence that is now added to the lang attribute 
in rfc4566bis:
"

    Events during the session can influence which language(s) are used,
    and the participants are not strictly bound to only use the declared
    languages.
"


>
>> The discussion we were involved in up to 10 April was intended to get 
>> the wording in this area a bit more clear, but I do not think we get 
>> this completely clarified until we describe relative priority between 
>> languages in different modalities.
>>
>> I am composing a presentation with issues in current draft, and some 
>> other topics.
>> Looking forward to the meeting and progress in Slim.
I touch two other topics in the presentation that can be good to start 
thinking about:

a) Is the notation for advisory vs required with an asterisk for 
advisory really wanted? I do not think it is ever wanted to 
automatically deny a call because no languages match. There may be close 
to matching cases. Better to show the info to the user.
If the asterisk is deleted, then that notation could be used for 
something else.

b) How to make the notation usable with media that are "hidden" in 
transports not using the main MIME type hinting on the modality, e.g. 
the text medium that in WebRTC will be multiplexed in a subchannel of 
the data channel declared as "application" type. We may need to register 
a "modality" attribute as well to mark the subchannel with, and use that 
in  a dsca attribute as specified in sdpneg.

/Gunnar

>>
>> Gunnar
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> --Randy
>>>
>>> At 12:18 AM +0200 6/9/16, Gunnar Hellström wrote:
>>>
>>>>  I would like to have some acceptance for the needs expressed by 
>>>> me, 3GPP and ETSI.
>>>>
>>>>  That is:
>>>>
>>>>  A simple mechanism to specify preference for language within the 
>>>> session instead of only per media. ( clearly required by 3GPP TS 
>>>> 22.228 )
>>>>
>>>>  A simple mechanism to tell when the most desirable outcome is to 
>>>> be provided with two languages/modalities together rather than the 
>>>> general case when one selected language for the main language 
>>>> communication is sufficient.
>>>>
>>>>  I have provided some solutions and simplified compromises to solve 
>>>> these needs in the most limited fashion that also satisfies most 
>>>> applications.
>>>>
>>>>  I have seen many responses diving into discussions of media 
>>>> acceptance and media negotiation depending on language negotiation 
>>>> outcome. I think it would be good to clarify that the intention of 
>>>> language specification is not primarily to support offer/answer 
>>>> decisions on media session establishment, but rather for 
>>>> application support and user guidance.
>>>>
>>>>  It is quite similar in level to the intended use of the SDP 
>>>> Content attribute specified in RFC 4796.
>>>>
>>>>  I see a clear risk that implementations hoping for progress in 
>>>> SLIM as promising sign that a solution is on its way will lose the 
>>>> hope and cause fragmentation by selecting various solutions based 
>>>> on different existing specifications complemented by coding 
>>>> assumptions.
>>>>
>>>>  Can we move on and have a new version done well in time before the 
>>>> coming IETF meeting? Also including the promised and proposed 
>>>> modifications of other kinds?
>>>>
>>>>  /Gunnar
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Den 2016-05-17 kl. 18:05, skrev Brian Rosen:
>>>>
>>>>>  Like Randall, I want to stay away from a linkage between what 
>>>>> languages you prefer and what media you are offering.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  I want to stay with the long standing SDP negotiation that you 
>>>>> offer media you want to use, and and or all of that media can be 
>>>>> accepted.
>>>>>
>>>>>  I want our work to build on that, not change it, so that we can 
>>>>> indicate, for the media accepted, what language is preferred.
>>>>>
>>>>>  I further don't want to link a preference of language on one 
>>>>> media to the preference of language on another media. I want them 
>>>>> independent: if audio and text are offered and answered, then 
>>>>> language on audio is specified, and language on text is specified, 
>>>>> and those don't interact.
>>>>>
>>>>>  I think living with those restrictions will make implementations 
>>>>> easier, and won't limit use much.
>>>>>
>>>>>  Adding more complexity at this point is, I think, not worth it.
>>>>>
>>>>>  Brian
>>>>>
>>>>>>  On May 17, 2016, at 2:01 AM, Gunnar Hellström 
>>>>>> <<mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se> 
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Randall,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Can you accept that our goal is to select the most appropriate 
>>>>>> language(s) for the call?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  This includes providing guidance to the answering part so that 
>>>>>> the answer can be made in the most appropriate language(s).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  That is stated in the charter:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  "While the two use cases are in different contexts (real time and
>>>>>>  non-real-time), the fundamental goal is the same: to enable 
>>>>>> selection of
>>>>>>  the best-fit language(s) for a specific situation. "
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  It is not sufficient to use the indications to select which 
>>>>>> media shall be enabled, and then let the users sort out which 
>>>>>> language to use.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  The user needs guidance if it is most appropriate to start the 
>>>>>> conversation in voice, sign language or text or a combination of 
>>>>>> these modalities. If not, the call will start with confusion 
>>>>>> about what is the most efficient means for them to communicate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  That is why the preference indication needs to have:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  a) a common scope over all media, and
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  b) an indication if two modalities simultaneously are desired 
>>>>>> for reception.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Can we agree on that and move on to find a simple way of 
>>>>>> expressing these needs?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  /Gunnar
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Den 2016-05-17 kl. 05:25, skrev Randall Gellens:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  At 8:28 PM -0600 5/16/16, Doug Ewell wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Except that there is still disagreement on whether the 
>>>>>>>> mechanism is needed for SLIM 1.0.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  And we have a call for consensus by the chairs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  --
>>>>>>  -----------------------------------------
>>>>>>  Gunnar Hellström
>>>>>>  Omnitor
>>>>>> <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>>>>>  +46 708 204 288
>>>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>>>  SLIM mailing list
>>>>>> <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>SLIM@ietf.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  --
>>>>  -----------------------------------------
>>>>  Gunnar Hellström
>>>>  Omnitor
>>>> <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>>>  +46 708 204 288
>>>>
>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>  SLIM mailing list
>>>> SLIM@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>>>
>>>
>>
>> -- 
>> -----------------------------------------
>> Gunnar Hellström
>> Omnitor
>> gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>> +46 708 204 288
>> _______________________________________________
>> SLIM mailing list
>> SLIM@ietf.org <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> SLIM mailing list
> SLIM@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim

-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
+46 708 204 288


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    <p>Den 2016-07-18 kl. 07:26, skrev Bernard Aboba:<br>
    </p>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:07E1E3C2-414C-4E1B-A171-AD9EE29F4AE2@gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
        charset=windows-1252">
      <div>On Jul 17, 2016, at 22:56, Gunnar Hellström &lt;<a
          moz-do-not-send="true"
          href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>&gt;
        wrote:</div>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <div><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:
            EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA"
            lang="EN-US"> These use cases both result in a need to
            specify sending and receiving in English in both audio and
            text media. </span><br>
          <span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:
            EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA"
            lang="EN-US"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
              New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:
              EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA"
              lang="EN-US"> It is only the preferences and urgency to
              use the different media that differs. </span><br>
            <br>
            Do you mean that the current draft supports describing any
            of these use cases?<br>
          </span></div>
      </blockquote>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>[BA] The current draft enables the language capabilities for
        each media to be expressed and negotiated in each direction.
        This enables media preference to be expressed and implemented
        subsequently (either through conversation or by a yet
        unspecified mechanism).</div>
    </blockquote>
    I assume that you mean language preference, because there may be
    more than one language per media and there may be more than one
    media carrying language indications. And we have said that
    non-matching language indications should not be taken as a reason to
    not connect a medium. <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:07E1E3C2-414C-4E1B-A171-AD9EE29F4AE2@gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <div><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:
            EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA"
            lang="EN-US">Or what would a specification of English in
            both directions for both audio and text mean? Would it mean
            that all four must be used simultaneously? <br>
          </span></div>
      </blockquote>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>[BA] It means that the capability to use those languages
        bidirectionally has been negotiated - no usage obligation. <br>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    OK, I have a presentation for the meeting where some wording is
    proposed to document that.<br>
    How about having usage obligation for the languages in the answer? 
    Or at least for the ones with "-send" in the answer. <br>
    <br>
    We should also add the sentence that is now added to the lang
    attribute in rfc4566bis:<br>
    "<br>
    <pre class="newpage" style="font-size: 13.3333px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 1; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">   Events during the session can influence which language(s) are used,
   and the participants are not strictly bound to only use the declared
   languages.
"


</pre>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:07E1E3C2-414C-4E1B-A171-AD9EE29F4AE2@gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <div><span
            style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
            New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-ansi-language:
            EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA"
            lang="EN-US">The discussion we were involved in up to 10
            April was intended to get the wording in this area a bit
            more clear, but I do not think we get this completely
            clarified until we describe relative priority between
            languages in different modalities. <br>
            <br>
            I am composing a presentation with issues in current draft,
            and some other topics. <br>
            Looking forward to the meeting and progress in Slim.<br>
          </span></div>
      </blockquote>
    </blockquote>
    I touch two other topics in the presentation that can be good to
    start thinking about:<br>
    <br>
    a) Is the notation for advisory vs required with an asterisk for
    advisory really wanted? I do not think it is ever wanted to
    automatically deny a call because no languages match. There may be
    close to matching cases. Better to show the info to the user. <br>
    If the asterisk is deleted, then that notation could be used for
    something else.<br>
    <br>
    b) How to make the notation usable with media that are "hidden" in
    transports not using the main MIME type hinting on the modality, 
    e.g. the text medium that in WebRTC will be multiplexed in a
    subchannel of the data channel declared as "application" type. We
    may need to register a "modality" attribute as well to mark the
    subchannel with, and use that in  a dsca attribute as specified in
    sdpneg.<br>
    <br>
    /Gunnar<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:07E1E3C2-414C-4E1B-A171-AD9EE29F4AE2@gmail.com"
      type="cite">
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            Gunnar<br>
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Body Text"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Body Text Indent"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="List Continue"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="List Continue 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="List Continue 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="List Continue 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="List Continue 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Message Header"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="11" QFormat="true" Name="Subtitle"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Salutation"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Date"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Body Text First Indent"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Body Text First Indent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Note Heading"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Body Text 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Body Text 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Body Text Indent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Body Text Indent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Block Text"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Hyperlink"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="FollowedHyperlink"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="22" QFormat="true" Name="Strong"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="20" QFormat="true" Name="Emphasis"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Document Map"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Plain Text"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="E-mail Signature"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="HTML Top of Form"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="HTML Bottom of Form"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Normal (Web)"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="HTML Acronym"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="HTML Address"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="HTML Cite"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="HTML Code"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="HTML Definition"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="HTML Keyboard"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="HTML Preformatted"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="HTML Sample"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="HTML Typewriter"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="HTML Variable"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Normal Table"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="annotation subject"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="No List"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Outline List 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Outline List 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Outline List 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Simple 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Simple 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Simple 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Classic 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Classic 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Classic 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Classic 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Colorful 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Colorful 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Colorful 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Columns 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Columns 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Columns 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Columns 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Columns 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Grid 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Grid 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Grid 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Grid 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Grid 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Grid 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Grid 7"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Grid 8"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table List 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table List 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table List 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table List 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table List 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table List 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table List 7"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table List 8"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table 3D effects 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table 3D effects 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table 3D effects 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Contemporary"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Elegant"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Professional"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Subtle 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Subtle 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Web 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Web 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Web 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Balloon Text"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="Table Grid"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Theme"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" Name="Placeholder Text"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="1" QFormat="true" Name="No Spacing"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" Name="Revision"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="34" QFormat="true"
   Name="List Paragraph"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="29" QFormat="true" Name="Quote"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="30" QFormat="true"
   Name="Intense Quote"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="19" QFormat="true"
   Name="Subtle Emphasis"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="21" QFormat="true"
   Name="Intense Emphasis"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="31" QFormat="true"
   Name="Subtle Reference"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="32" QFormat="true"
   Name="Intense Reference"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="33" QFormat="true" Name="Book Title"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="37" SemiHidden="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" SemiHidden="true"
   UnhideWhenUsed="true" QFormat="true" Name="TOC Heading"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="41" Name="Plain Table 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="42" Name="Plain Table 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="43" Name="Plain Table 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="44" Name="Plain Table 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="45" Name="Plain Table 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="40" Name="Grid Table Light"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46" Name="Grid Table 1 Light"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51" Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52" Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"
   Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"
   Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"
   Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"
   Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"
   Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"
   Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"
   Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"
   Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"
   Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"
   Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"
   Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"
   Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"
   Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"
   Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"
   Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"
   Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"
   Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"
   Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46" Name="List Table 1 Light"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="List Table 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="List Table 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="List Table 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="List Table 5 Dark"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51" Name="List Table 6 Colorful"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52" Name="List Table 7 Colorful"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"
   Name="List Table 1 Light Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="List Table 2 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="List Table 3 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="List Table 4 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="List Table 5 Dark Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"
   Name="List Table 6 Colorful Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"
   Name="List Table 7 Colorful Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"
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          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <blockquote cite="mid:p06240603d3b1618fd7f4@[10.199.14.19]"
            type="cite"> <br>
            --Randy <br>
            <br>
            At 12:18 AM +0200 6/9/16, Gunnar Hellström wrote: <br>
            <br>
            <blockquote type="cite"> I would like to have some
              acceptance for the needs expressed by me, 3GPP and ETSI. <br>
              <br>
               That is: <br>
              <br>
               A simple mechanism to specify preference for language
              within the session instead of only per media. ( clearly
              required by 3GPP TS 22.228 ) <br>
              <br>
               A simple mechanism to tell when the most desirable
              outcome is to be provided with two languages/modalities
              together rather than the general case when one selected
              language for the main language communication is
              sufficient. <br>
              <br>
               I have provided some solutions and simplified compromises
              to solve these needs in the most limited fashion that also
              satisfies most applications. <br>
              <br>
               I have seen many responses diving into discussions of
              media acceptance and media negotiation depending on
              language negotiation outcome. I think it would be good to
              clarify that the intention of language specification is
              not primarily to support offer/answer decisions on media
              session establishment, but rather for application support
              and user guidance. <br>
              <br>
               It is quite similar in level to the intended use of the
              SDP Content attribute specified in RFC 4796. <br>
              <br>
               I see a clear risk that implementations hoping for
              progress in SLIM as promising sign that a solution is on
              its way will lose the hope and cause fragmentation by
              selecting various solutions based on different existing
              specifications complemented by coding assumptions. <br>
              <br>
               Can we move on and have a new version done well in time
              before the coming IETF meeting? Also including the
              promised and proposed modifications of other kinds? <br>
              <br>
               /Gunnar <br>
              <br>
              <br>
              <br>
               Den 2016-05-17 kl. 18:05, skrev Brian Rosen: <br>
              <br>
              <blockquote type="cite"> Like Randall, I want to stay away
                from a linkage between what languages you prefer and
                what media you are offering. <br>
                <br>
              </blockquote>
              <br>
              <blockquote type="cite"> <br>
                 I want to stay with the long standing SDP negotiation
                that you offer media you want to use, and and or all of
                that media can be accepted. <br>
                <br>
                 I want our work to build on that, not change it, so
                that we can indicate, for the media accepted, what
                language is preferred. <br>
                <br>
                 I further don't want to link a preference of language
                on one media to the preference of language on another
                media. I want them independent: if audio and text are
                offered and answered, then language on audio is
                specified, and language on text is specified, and those
                don't interact. <br>
                <br>
                 I think living with those restrictions will make
                implementations easier, and won't limit use much. <br>
                <br>
                 Adding more complexity at this point is, I think, not
                worth it. <br>
                <br>
                 Brian <br>
                <br>
                <blockquote type="cite"> On May 17, 2016, at 2:01 AM,
                  Gunnar Hellström
                  &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                    href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">&lt;mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se&gt;</a><a
                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                    class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                    href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>&gt;
                  wrote: <br>
                  <br>
                   Randall, <br>
                  <br>
                   Can you accept that our goal is to select the most
                  appropriate language(s) for the call? <br>
                  <br>
                   This includes providing guidance to the answering
                  part so that the answer can be made in the most
                  appropriate language(s). <br>
                  <br>
                   That is stated in the charter: <br>
                  <br>
                   "While the two use cases are in different contexts
                  (real time and <br>
                   non-real-time), the fundamental goal is the same: to
                  enable selection of <br>
                   the best-fit language(s) for a specific situation. "
                  <br>
                  <br>
                   It is not sufficient to use the indications to select
                  which media shall be enabled, and then let the users
                  sort out which language to use. <br>
                  <br>
                   The user needs guidance if it is most appropriate to
                  start the conversation in voice, sign language or text
                  or a combination of these modalities. If not, the call
                  will start with confusion about what is the most
                  efficient means for them to communicate. <br>
                  <br>
                   That is why the preference indication needs to have:
                  <br>
                  <br>
                   a) a common scope over all media, and <br>
                  <br>
                   b) an indication if two modalities simultaneously are
                  desired for reception. <br>
                  <br>
                   Can we agree on that and move on to find a simple way
                  of expressing these needs? <br>
                  <br>
                   /Gunnar <br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                   Den 2016-05-17 kl. 05:25, skrev Randall Gellens: <br>
                  <br>
                  <blockquote type="cite"> At 8:28 PM -0600 5/16/16,
                    Doug Ewell wrote: <br>
                    <br>
                    <blockquote type="cite"> Except that there is still
                      disagreement on whether the mechanism is needed
                      for SLIM 1.0. <br>
                      <br>
                    </blockquote>
                    <br>
                     And we have a call for consensus by the chairs. <br>
                    <br>
                  </blockquote>
                  <br>
                   -- <br>
                   ----------------------------------------- <br>
                   Gunnar Hellström <br>
                   Omnitor <br>
                   <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                    href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">&lt;mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se&gt;</a><a
                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                    class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                    href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>
                  <br>
                   +46 708 204 288 <br>
                   _______________________________________________ <br>
                   SLIM mailing list <br>
                   <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                    href="mailto:SLIM@ietf.org">&lt;mailto:SLIM@ietf.org&gt;</a><a
                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                    class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                    href="mailto:SLIM@ietf.org">SLIM@ietf.org</a> <br>
                  <br>
                  <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                    href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim">&lt;https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim&gt;</a><a
                    moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                    href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                </blockquote>
                <br>
              </blockquote>
              <br>
               -- <br>
               ----------------------------------------- <br>
               Gunnar Hellström <br>
               Omnitor <br>
               <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
                href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">&lt;mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se&gt;</a><a
                moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>
              <br>
               +46 708 204 288 <br>
              <br>
               _______________________________________________ <br>
               SLIM mailing list <br>
               <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
                href="mailto:SLIM@ietf.org">SLIM@ietf.org</a> <br>
               <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
                href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a>
              <br>
            </blockquote>
            <br>
            <br>
          </blockquote>
          <br>
          <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>
+46 708 204 288</pre>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br>
          <span>SLIM mailing list</span><br>
          <span><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:SLIM@ietf.org">SLIM@ietf.org</a></span><br>
          <span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a></span><br>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
SLIM mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:SLIM@ietf.org">SLIM@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>
+46 708 204 288</pre>
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Subject: Re: [Slim] [slim] #1 (use-cases): Test ticket
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Please ignore this message - we were testing the issue tool!

Natasha


Natasha Rooney | Technologist, Web and Internet, W3C & IETF | GSMA | nroone=
y@gsma.com<mailto:nrooney@gsma.com> | +44 (0) 7730 219 765 | @thisNatasha |=
 Skype: nrooney@gsm.org<mailto:nrooney@gsm.org>


On 19 Jul 2016, at 11:32, slim issue tracker <trac+slim@tools.ietf.org<mail=
to:trac+slim@tools.ietf.org>> wrote:

#1: Test ticket

Test ticket #1

--
--------------------------------+----------------------------
Reporter:  nrooney@gsma.com<mailto:nrooney@gsma.com>    |      Owner:  Nata=
sha Rooney
    Type:  task                |     Status:  new
Priority:  trivial             |  Milestone:  milestone1
Component:  use-cases           |    Version:  1.0
Severity:  Active WG Document  |   Keywords:
--------------------------------+----------------------------

Ticket URL: <https://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/trac/ticket/1>
slim <https://tools.ietf.org/slim/>



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al; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-w=
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<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; t=
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al; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-w=
rap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-=
space;" class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Natasha<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Natasha Rooney | Technologist, Web&nbsp;and Internet, W3C &amp; IETF | GSMA=
 |&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:nrooney@gsma.com" class=3D"">nrooney@gsma.com</a>=
&nbsp;| &#43;44 (0) 7730&nbsp;219 765 | @thisNatasha | Skype:&nbsp;<a href=
=3D"mailto:nrooney@gsm.org" class=3D"">nrooney@gsm.org</a><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
<div style=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On 19 Jul 2016, at 11:32, slim issue tracker &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:trac&#43;slim@tools.ietf.org" class=3D"">trac&#43;slim@tools.ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">#1: Test ticket<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Test ticket #1<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
-- <br class=3D"">
--------------------------------&#43;----------------------------<br class=
=3D"">
Reporter: &nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:nrooney@gsma.com" class=3D"">nrooney@gsma=
.com</a> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Owner: &nbsp;Nat=
asha Rooney<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Type: &nbsp;task &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;Status: &nbsp;new<br class=3D"">
Priority: &nbsp;trivial &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;Milestone: &nbsp;milestone1<br class=3D"">
Component: &nbsp;use-cases &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Version: &nbsp;1.0<br class=3D"">
Severity: &nbsp;Active WG Document &nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;Keywords:<br class=
=3D"">
--------------------------------&#43;----------------------------<br class=
=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Ticket URL: &lt;<a href=3D"https://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/trac/ticket/=
1" class=3D"">https://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/trac/ticket/1</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D"">
slim &lt;<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/slim/" class=3D"">https://tools.=
ietf.org/slim/</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
<p style=3D"font-family: Arial,sans-serif;font-size:11px;color:#999999;"><s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial,sans-serif;color:#999999; ms=
o-fareast-font-family: Arial; mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-latin; mso-bidi=
-font-family: &quot;Arial&quot;; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-lang=
uage: EN-GB; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">This
 email and its attachments are intended for the above named only and may be=
 confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take no action ba=
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 email or call &#43;44 207 356 0600
 and highlight the error. </span></p>
</body>
</html>

--_000_573E49936B5F40A5978A4033C1C5C5A2gsmacom_--


From nobody Tue Jul 19 07:58:29 2016
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Subject: Re: [Slim] IETF96
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To address the two action items in the real-time draft from today's 
discussion, I propose to make the following two changes:

Replace all of Section 5 with:

    RFC 4566 [RFC4566] specifies an attribute 'lang' which appears
    similar to what is needed here, but in considering its use the group
    felt its semantics were ambiguous, noted that there was not much
    evidence of its use (and thus less likelihood of conflict or
    confusion in defining new attributes), and that there was value in
    being able to specify language per direction (sending and receiving).
    This document therefore defines two new attributes.

This deletes all interpretation of the existing attribute (while 
retaining mention that interpretation is needed) and mentions the 
value in being able to specify language per direction.

In Section 6.2, change "the languages the offerer wishes to" to 
"...is willing to".

If you feel these changes are not correct, please say so now.

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
There are three possibilities: Pioneer's solar panel has turned
away from the sun; there's a large meteor blocking transmission;
or someone loaded Star Trek 3.2 into our video processor.


From nobody Tue Jul 19 13:00:38 2016
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To: "slim@ietf.org" <slim@ietf.org>, Natasha Rooney <nrooney@gsma.com>
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Subject: [Slim] Edit proposals to draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-01
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------0FA3394F70F6FFAEDE442AB3
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I recently sent a collection of comments and edit proposals for 
draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-01 to Randall and the slim 
chairs. The comments and edits are of widely different kinds, between 
editorial and style issues to important technical change proposals also 
discussed and noted in today's notes to comments about related issues 
clearly ut of scope for the current draft.

We have not had any real discussion on anything but the kernel subject 
of this draft. We need also to look at other aspects.

Short of time, I made what I found to be most rapid. I made a commented 
and changemarked Word version of it. I know it is not IETF policy to 
work with Word documents.

Here I will try to distribute the commented and changemarked file as a 
pdf file, but I am afraid that it will get stuck in mail list policy 
limits. If so, please advice me how I can make my proposals available to 
all in a simple way.

Regards

Gunnar

-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
+46 708 204 288


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Subject: Re: [Slim] IETF96 - negotiating-human-language sections 5 and 6.2
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Randall,

Den 2016-07-19 kl. 16:35, skrev Randall Gellens:
> To address the two action items in the real-time draft from today's 
> discussion, I propose to make the following two changes:
>
> Replace all of Section 5 with:
I still think it is not our task to criticize RFC 4566 when we do not 
need. I proposed to just motivate our decision on the fact that the lang 
attribute does not have sufficient detail. We have agreed to describe 
languages per direction, and that is not supported by 'lang'

So, here is my proposed rewording:

    RFC 4566 [RFC4566] specifies an attribute 'lang' which appears
    similar to what is needed here. We need however a more detailed 
specification than the 'lang' attribute provides.    We need a way to 
negotiate which language is used in each stream and direction in the 
session. This document therefore defines two new attributes.
>
>
>
(Your proposal was
> RFC 4566 [RFC4566] specifies an attribute 'lang' which appears
>    similar to what is needed here, but in considering its use the group
>    felt its semantics were ambiguous, noted that there was not much
>    evidence of its use (and thus less likelihood of conflict or
>    confusion in defining new attributes), and that there was value in
>    being able to specify language per direction (sending and receiving).
>    This document therefore defines two new attributes.
>
> This deletes all interpretation of the existing attribute (while 
> retaining mention that interpretation is needed) and mentions the 
> value in being able to specify language per direction.
)
>
> In Section 6.2, change "the languages the offerer wishes to" to "...is 
> willing to".
You mentioned "is capable to" during the meeting. I think that is 
better. We need to avoid to give the impression that the user in the 
normal case intends to use more than one of the indicated languages. "is 
willing to" is better than "wishes" but I still think that "is capable 
of" is even more free of implication that the desire is to use more than 
one.

There are two more occurrences of "wishes" in section 6.2. Please look 
at the change proposal file I just sent to the list and make your 
proposals from it ( I know my proposals are not perfect either).

Earlier ( in April) you also proposed to delete the phrase "to indicate the language used when sending and receiving media" at the end of the first paragraph in 6.2. I still support that proposal,
  because the full reasoning of the purpose and usage of the attributes follow.

> If you feel these changes are not correct, please say so now.
>
Regards
Gunnar

-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
+46 708 204 288


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    <p>Randall,<br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Den 2016-07-19 kl. 16:35, skrev Randall
      Gellens:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:p06240602d3b3e7033c89@[10.134.253.167]"
      type="cite">To address the two action items in the real-time draft
      from today's discussion, I propose to make the following two
      changes:
      <br>
      <br>
      Replace all of Section 5 with:
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    I still think it is not our task to criticize RFC 4566 when we do
    not need. I proposed to just motivate our decision on the fact that
    the lang attribute does not have sufficient detail. We have agreed
    to describe languages per direction, and that is not supported by
    'lang'<br>
    <br>
    So, here is my proposed rewording: <br>
    <br>
       RFC 4566 [RFC4566] specifies an attribute 'lang' which appears<br>
       similar to what is needed here. We need however a more detailed
    specification than the 'lang' attribute provides.    We need a way
    to negotiate which language is used in each stream and direction in
    the session. This document therefore defines two new attributes. <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:p06240602d3b3e7033c89@[10.134.253.167]"
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      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    (Your proposal was<br>
    <span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span>
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<![endif]--> RFC 4566 [RFC4566] specifies an attribute 'lang' which
      appears<br>
         similar to what is needed here, but in considering its use the
      group<br>
         felt its semantics were ambiguous, noted that there was not
      much<br>
         evidence of its use (and thus less likelihood of conflict or<br>
         confusion in defining new attributes), and that there was value
      in<br>
         being able to specify language per direction (sending and
      receiving).<br>
         This document therefore defines two new attributes.<br>
    </blockquote>
    <blockquote cite="mid:p06240602d3b3e7033c89@[10.134.253.167]"
      type="cite"><br>
      This deletes all interpretation of the existing attribute (while
      retaining mention that interpretation is needed) and mentions the
      value in being able to specify language per direction.
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    )<br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:p06240602d3b3e7033c89@[10.134.253.167]"
      type="cite">
      <br>
      In Section 6.2, change "the languages the offerer wishes to" to
      "...is willing to".
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    You mentioned "is capable to" during the meeting. I think that is
    better. We need to avoid to give the impression that the user in the
    normal case intends to use more than one of the indicated languages.
    "is willing to" is better than "wishes" but I still think that "is
    capable of" is even more free of implication that the desire is to
    use more than one.<br>
    <br>
    There are two more occurrences of "wishes" in section 6.2. Please
    look at the change proposal file I just sent to the list and make
    your proposals from it ( I know my proposals are not perfect
    either).<br>
    <br>
    <pre>Earlier ( in April) you also proposed to delete the phrase "<span style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:
107%;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:
EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US">to indicate the language used when sending 
and receiving media" </span>at the end of the first paragraph in 6.2. I still support that proposal,
 because the full reasoning of the purpose and usage of the attributes follow.
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:
107%;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;;mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:
EN-US;mso-fareast-language:EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"></span></pre>
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    <blockquote cite="mid:p06240602d3b3e7033c89@[10.134.253.167]"
      type="cite">If you feel these changes are not correct, please say
      so now.
      <br>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    Regards<br>
    Gunnar<br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>
+46 708 204 288</pre>
  </body>
</html>

--------------F17163A55A8BE3A81A0BE368--


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Subject: Re: [Slim] IETF96 - negotiating-human-language sections 5 and 6.2
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At 10:52 PM +0200 7/19/16, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m wrote:

>  Randall,
>
>  Den 2016-07-19 kl. 16:35, skrev Randall Gellens:
>
>>  To address the two action items in the=20
>> real-time draft from today's discussion, I=20
>> propose to make the following two changes:
>>
>>  Replace all of Section 5 with:
>>
>  I still think it is not our task to criticize=20
> RFC 4566 when we do not need. I proposed to=20
> just motivate our decision on the fact that the=20
> lang attribute does not have sufficient detail.=20
> We have agreed to describe languages per=20
> direction, and that is not supported by 'lang'

The history of that decision is that it was done=20
after the agreement that the existing 'lang'=20
attribute couldn't be used.  It's additional, I'm=20
not sure it's sufficient.  If you object so=20
strongly to the simple statement that the=20
existing semantics are not clear (which is=20
evidenced by the debate over what they mean), I=20
can delete all justification and simply say that=20
the group decided not to use it.  After all,=20
anything we say as to why can be argued with, as=20
you are doing here.

>
>  So, here is my proposed rewording:
>
>  RFC 4566 [RFC4566] specifies an attribute 'lang' which appears
>  similar to what is needed here. We need however=20
> a more detailed specification than the 'lang'=20
> attribute provides. We need a way to negotiate=20
> which language is used in each stream and=20
> direction in the session. This document=20
> therefore defines two new attributes.
>
>>
>>
>>
>  (Your proposal was
>
>>  RFC 4566 [RFC4566] specifies an attribute 'lang' which appears
>>  similar to what is needed here, but in considering its use the group
>>  felt its semantics were ambiguous, noted that there was not much
>>  evidence of its use (and thus less likelihood of conflict or
>>  confusion in defining new attributes), and that there was value in
>>  being able to specify language per direction (sending and receiving).
>>  This document therefore defines two new attributes.
>>
>>
>>  This deletes all interpretation of the=20
>> existing attribute (while retaining mention=20
>> that interpretation is needed) and mentions=20
>> the value in being able to specify language=20
>> per direction.
>>
>  )
>
>>
>>  In Section 6.2, change "the languages the=20
>> offerer wishes to" to "...is willing to".
>>
>  You mentioned "is capable to" during the meeting. I think that is better.

I mentioned it because it was your suggested=20
phrase and I feel it is not clear nor correct=20
English nor correct technically.  What I=20
suggested in the meeting was saying "supports"=20
which is what I think you meant by "is capable=20
to", but when I made the change to the draft, I=20
realized that it was incorrect.  Most clients=20
will be capable of supporting virtually any=20
language; obviously the client isn't going to try=20
and establish sessions for every language.  It's=20
going to do what it determines the user wants.  I=20
think the original wording of "wishes" is best=20
but I am happy to change it.

>  We need to avoid to give the impression that=20
> the user in the normal case intends to use more=20
> than one of the indicated languages.

No, we do not, because that gets into user=20
interface issues which are out of scope.  We need=20
to establish at the protocol level which=20
languages are established.

>   "is willing to" is better than "wishes" but I=20
> still think that "is capable of" is even more=20
> free of implication that the desire is to use=20
> more than one.
>
>  There are two more occurrences of "wishes" in=20
> section 6.2. Please look at the change proposal=20
> file I just sent to the list and make your=20
> proposals from it ( I know my proposals are not=20
> perfect either).
>
>  Earlier ( in April) you also proposed to delete=20
> the phrase "to indicate the language used when=20
> sending
>  and receiving media" at the end of the first=20
> paragraph in 6.2. I still support that proposal,
>   because the full reasoning of the purpose and=20
> usage of the attributes follow.

That change was made but missed getting in to=20
-01.  It is in -02.  I didn't include it in the=20
email because it was stylistic and not germane to=20
the action item, so I felt it would be confusing=20
to include.

Here is the full paragraph as it is now:

    In an offer, 'humintlang-send' indicates the language(s) the offerer
    is willing to use when sending using the media, and 'humintlang-recv'
    indicates the language(s) the offerer is willing to use when
    receiving using the media.  In both cases the values constitute a
    list of languages in preference order (first is most preferred).  In
    cases where the user wishes to use a media in one direction only
    (such as a speech-impaired user who wishes to send using text and
    receive using audio), one of the two MAY be unset.  In cases where a
    media is not primarily intended for language (for example, a video or
    audio stream intended for background only) both SHOULD be unset.  In
    other cases, both SHOULD have the same values in the same order.  The
    two SHOULD NOT be set to languages which are difficult to match
    together (e.g., specifying a desire to send audio in Hungarian and
    receive audio in Portuguese will make it difficult to successfully
    complete the call).


>
>>  If you feel these changes are not correct, please say so now.
>>
>  Regards
>  Gunnar
>  --
>  -----------------------------------------
>  Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
>  Omnitor
>  <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>  +46 708 204 288
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  SLIM mailing list
>  SLIM@ietf.org
>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim


-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
He had occasional flashes of silence that made his conversation
perfectly delightful.                            --Sydney Smith


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Subject: Re: [Slim] IETF96 - negotiating-human-language sections 5 and 6.2
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Den 2016-07-19 kl. 23:24, skrev Randall Gellens:

> At 10:52 PM +0200 7/19/16, Gunnar Hellström wrote:
>
>>  Randall,
>>
>>  Den 2016-07-19 kl. 16:35, skrev Randall Gellens:
>>
>>>  To address the two action items in the real-time draft from today's 
>>> discussion, I propose to make the following two changes:
>>>
>>>  Replace all of Section 5 with:
>>>
>>  I still think it is not our task to criticize RFC 4566 when we do 
>> not need. I proposed to just motivate our decision on the fact that 
>> the lang attribute does not have sufficient detail. We have agreed to 
>> describe languages per direction, and that is not supported by 'lang'
>
> The history of that decision is that it was done after the agreement 
> that the existing 'lang' attribute couldn't be used. It's additional, 
> I'm not sure it's sufficient.  If you object so strongly to the simple 
> statement that the existing semantics are not clear (which is 
> evidenced by the debate over what they mean), I can delete all 
> justification and simply say that the group decided not to use it.  
> After all, anything we say as to why can be argued with, as you are 
> doing here.
A motivation is needed, and the clear one is the direction. Please use that.
>
>>
>>  So, here is my proposed rewording:
>>
>>  RFC 4566 [RFC4566] specifies an attribute 'lang' which appears
>>  similar to what is needed here. We need however a more detailed 
>> specification than the 'lang' attribute provides. We need a way to 
>> negotiate which language is used in each stream and direction in the 
>> session. This document therefore defines two new attributes.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>  (Your proposal was
>>
>>>  RFC 4566 [RFC4566] specifies an attribute 'lang' which appears
>>>  similar to what is needed here, but in considering its use the group
>>>  felt its semantics were ambiguous, noted that there was not much
>>>  evidence of its use (and thus less likelihood of conflict or
>>>  confusion in defining new attributes), and that there was value in
>>>  being able to specify language per direction (sending and receiving).
>>>  This document therefore defines two new attributes.
>>>
>>>
>>>  This deletes all interpretation of the existing attribute (while 
>>> retaining mention that interpretation is needed) and mentions the 
>>> value in being able to specify language per direction.
>>>
>>  )
>>
>>>
>>>  In Section 6.2, change "the languages the offerer wishes to" to 
>>> "...is willing to".
>>>
>>  You mentioned "is capable to" during the meeting. I think that is 
>> better.
>
> I mentioned it because it was your suggested phrase and I feel it is 
> not clear nor correct English nor correct technically.  What I 
> suggested in the meeting was saying "supports" which is what I think 
> you meant by "is capable to", but when I made the change to the draft, 
> I realized that it was incorrect.  Most clients will be capable of 
> supporting virtually any language; obviously the client isn't going to 
> try and establish sessions for every language. It's going to do what 
> it determines the user wants.  I think the original wording of 
> "wishes" is best but I am happy to change it.
>
>>  We need to avoid to give the impression that the user in the normal 
>> case intends to use more than one of the indicated languages.
>
> No, we do not, because that gets into user interface issues which are 
> out of scope.  We need to establish at the protocol level which 
> languages are established.
>
>>   "is willing to" is better than "wishes" but I still think that "is 
>> capable of" is even more free of implication that the desire is to 
>> use more than one.
>>
>>  There are two more occurrences of "wishes" in section 6.2. Please 
>> look at the change proposal file I just sent to the list and make 
>> your proposals from it ( I know my proposals are not perfect either).
>>
>>  Earlier ( in April) you also proposed to delete the phrase "to 
>> indicate the language used when sending
>>  and receiving media" at the end of the first paragraph in 6.2. I 
>> still support that proposal,
>>   because the full reasoning of the purpose and usage of the 
>> attributes follow.
>
> That change was made but missed getting in to -01.  It is in -02. I 
> didn't include it in the email because it was stylistic and not 
> germane to the action item, so I felt it would be confusing to include.
>
> Here is the full paragraph as it is now:
>
>    In an offer, 'humintlang-send' indicates the language(s) the offerer
>    is willing to use when sending using the media, and 'humintlang-recv'
>    indicates the language(s) the offerer is willing to use when
>    receiving using the media.  In both cases the values constitute a
>    list of languages in preference order (first is most preferred).  In
>    cases where the user wishes to use a media in one direction only
>    (such as a speech-impaired user who wishes to send using text and
>    receive using audio), one of the two MAY be unset.  In cases where a
>    media is not primarily intended for language (for example, a video or
>    audio stream intended for background only) both SHOULD be unset.  In
>    other cases, both SHOULD have the same values in the same order.  The
>    two SHOULD NOT be set to languages which are difficult to match
>    together (e.g., specifying a desire to send audio in Hungarian and
>    receive audio in Portuguese will make it difficult to successfully
>    complete the call).
OK, I can accept "is willing". So, this text is close to good.

However, there is another small item, I remember I bounced at the first 
times I read this. It is this phrase:
" In cases where the user wishes to use a media in one direction only
    (such as a speech-impaired user who wishes to send using text and
    receive using audio), one of the two MAY be unset."

I was thinking of "the two" as text and speech attributes and wondered 
why you did not want to set both.
Eventually I realized that you thought about the two directions of each 
media. So, I suggest to clarify like this:

In cases where the user wishes to use a media in one direction only
    (such as a speech-impaired user who wishes to send using text and
    receive using audio), one of the two MAY be unsetfor that media.

/Gunnar




>
>
>>
>>>  If you feel these changes are not correct, please say so now.
>>>
>>  Regards
>>  Gunnar
>>  --
>>  -----------------------------------------
>>  Gunnar Hellström
>>  Omnitor
>>  <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>  +46 708 204 288
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  SLIM mailing list
>>  SLIM@ietf.org
>>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>
>

-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
+46 708 204 288


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    <p>Den 2016-07-19 kl. 23:24, skrev Randall Gellens:<br>
    </p>
    <blockquote cite="mid:p06240607d3b4478edd17@[10.134.253.167]"
      type="cite">At 10:52 PM +0200 7/19/16, Gunnar Hellström wrote:
      <br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite"> Randall,
        <br>
        <br>
         Den 2016-07-19 kl. 16:35, skrev Randall Gellens:
        <br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type="cite"> To address the two action items in the
          real-time draft from today's discussion, I propose to make the
          following two changes:
          <br>
          <br>
           Replace all of Section 5 with:
          <br>
          <br>
        </blockquote>
         I still think it is not our task to criticize RFC 4566 when we
        do not need. I proposed to just motivate our decision on the
        fact that the lang attribute does not have sufficient detail. We
        have agreed to describe languages per direction, and that is not
        supported by 'lang'
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      The history of that decision is that it was done after the
      agreement that the existing 'lang' attribute couldn't be used. 
      It's additional, I'm not sure it's sufficient.  If you object so
      strongly to the simple statement that the existing semantics are
      not clear (which is evidenced by the debate over what they mean),
      I can delete all justification and simply say that the group
      decided not to use it.  After all, anything we say as to why can
      be argued with, as you are doing here.
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    A motivation is needed, and the clear one is the direction. Please
    use that.<br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:p06240607d3b4478edd17@[10.134.253.167]"
      type="cite">
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <br>
         So, here is my proposed rewording:
        <br>
        <br>
         RFC 4566 [RFC4566] specifies an attribute 'lang' which appears
        <br>
         similar to what is needed here. We need however a more detailed
        specification than the 'lang' attribute provides. We need a way
        to negotiate which language is used in each stream and direction
        in the session. This document therefore defines two new
        attributes.
        <br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
        </blockquote>
         (Your proposal was
        <br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type="cite"> RFC 4566 [RFC4566] specifies an
          attribute 'lang' which appears
          <br>
           similar to what is needed here, but in considering its use
          the group
          <br>
           felt its semantics were ambiguous, noted that there was not
          much
          <br>
           evidence of its use (and thus less likelihood of conflict or
          <br>
           confusion in defining new attributes), and that there was
          value in
          <br>
           being able to specify language per direction (sending and
          receiving).
          <br>
           This document therefore defines two new attributes.
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
           This deletes all interpretation of the existing attribute
          (while retaining mention that interpretation is needed) and
          mentions the value in being able to specify language per
          direction.
          <br>
          <br>
        </blockquote>
         )
        <br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <br>
           In Section 6.2, change "the languages the offerer wishes to"
          to "...is willing to".
          <br>
          <br>
        </blockquote>
         You mentioned "is capable to" during the meeting. I think that
        is better.
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      I mentioned it because it was your suggested phrase and I feel it
      is not clear nor correct English nor correct technically.  What I
      suggested in the meeting was saying "supports" which is what I
      think you meant by "is capable to", but when I made the change to
      the draft, I realized that it was incorrect.  Most clients will be
      capable of supporting virtually any language; obviously the client
      isn't going to try and establish sessions for every language. 
      It's going to do what it determines the user wants.  I think the
      original wording of "wishes" is best but I am happy to change it.
      <br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite"> We need to avoid to give the impression
        that the user in the normal case intends to use more than one of
        the indicated languages.
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      No, we do not, because that gets into user interface issues which
      are out of scope.  We need to establish at the protocol level
      which languages are established.
      <br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">  "is willing to" is better than "wishes"
        but I still think that "is capable of" is even more free of
        implication that the desire is to use more than one.
        <br>
        <br>
         There are two more occurrences of "wishes" in section 6.2.
        Please look at the change proposal file I just sent to the list
        and make your proposals from it ( I know my proposals are not
        perfect either).
        <br>
        <br>
         Earlier ( in April) you also proposed to delete the phrase "to
        indicate the language used when sending
        <br>
         and receiving media" at the end of the first paragraph in 6.2.
        I still support that proposal,
        <br>
          because the full reasoning of the purpose and usage of the
        attributes follow.
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      That change was made but missed getting in to -01.  It is in -02. 
      I didn't include it in the email because it was stylistic and not
      germane to the action item, so I felt it would be confusing to
      include.
      <br>
      <br>
      Here is the full paragraph as it is now:
      <br>
      <br>
         In an offer, 'humintlang-send' indicates the language(s) the
      offerer
      <br>
         is willing to use when sending using the media, and
      'humintlang-recv'
      <br>
         indicates the language(s) the offerer is willing to use when
      <br>
         receiving using the media.  In both cases the values constitute
      a
      <br>
         list of languages in preference order (first is most
      preferred).  In
      <br>
         cases where the user wishes to use a media in one direction
      only
      <br>
         (such as a speech-impaired user who wishes to send using text
      and
      <br>
         receive using audio), one of the two MAY be unset.  In cases
      where a
      <br>
         media is not primarily intended for language (for example, a
      video or
      <br>
         audio stream intended for background only) both SHOULD be
      unset.  In
      <br>
         other cases, both SHOULD have the same values in the same
      order.  The
      <br>
         two SHOULD NOT be set to languages which are difficult to match
      <br>
         together (e.g., specifying a desire to send audio in Hungarian
      and
      <br>
         receive audio in Portuguese will make it difficult to
      successfully
      <br>
         complete the call).
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    OK, I can accept "is willing". So, this text is close to good.<br>
    <br>
    However, there is another small item, I remember I bounced at the
    first times I read this. It is this phrase:<br>
    " In cases where the user wishes to use a media in one direction
    only
    <br>
       (such as a speech-impaired user who wishes to send using text and
    <br>
       receive using audio), one of the two MAY be unset."<br>
    <br>
    I was thinking of "the two" as text and speech attributes and
    wondered why you did not want to set both. <br>
    Eventually I realized that you thought about the two directions of
    each media. So, I suggest to clarify like this:<br>
    <br>
    In cases where the user wishes to use a media in one direction only
    <br>
       (such as a speech-impaired user who wishes to send using text and
    <br>
       receive using audio), one of the two MAY be unset<font
      color="#cc0000"> for that media</font>.<br>
    <br>
    /Gunnar<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:p06240607d3b4478edd17@[10.134.253.167]"
      type="cite">
      <br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <br>
        <blockquote type="cite"> If you feel these changes are not
          correct, please say so now.
          <br>
          <br>
        </blockquote>
         Regards
        <br>
         Gunnar
        <br>
         --
        <br>
         -----------------------------------------
        <br>
         Gunnar Hellström
        <br>
         Omnitor
        <br>
 <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">&lt;mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se&gt;</a><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>
        <br>
         +46 708 204 288
        <br>
        <br>
         _______________________________________________
        <br>
         SLIM mailing list
        <br>
         <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:SLIM@ietf.org">SLIM@ietf.org</a>
        <br>
         <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a>
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>
+46 708 204 288</pre>
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From: Brian Rosen <br@brianrosen.net>
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Subject: Re: [Slim] Edit proposals to draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-01
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Download the .xml file.  Edit it to create a new one, run xml2rfc to =
create a .txt.  Then run the IETF diff tool to create a diff.  =
Distribute (or post somewhere) the new .txt and the diff.
Offer the author(s) the .xml

Brian
> On Jul 19, 2016, at 10:00 PM, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m =
<gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se> wrote:
>=20
> I recently sent a collection of comments and edit proposals for =
draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-01 to Randall and the slim =
chairs. The comments and edits are of widely different kinds, between =
editorial and style issues to important technical change proposals also =
discussed and noted in today's notes to comments about related issues =
clearly ut of scope for the current draft.
>=20
> We have not had any real discussion on anything but the kernel subject =
of this draft. We need also to look at other aspects.
>=20
> Short of time, I made what I found to be most rapid. I made a =
commented and changemarked Word version of it. I know it is not IETF =
policy to work with Word documents.
>=20
> Here I will try to distribute the commented and changemarked file as a =
pdf file, but I am afraid that it will get stuck in mail list policy =
limits. If so, please advice me how I can make my proposals available to =
all in a simple way.
>=20
> Regards
>=20
> Gunnar
>=20
> --=20
> -----------------------------------------
> Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
> Omnitor
> gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
> +46 708 204 288
>=20
> =
<draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-01-gh2.pdf>___________________=
____________________________
> SLIM mailing list
> SLIM@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim


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Subject: [Slim] awareness to the user in the slim real-time draft
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Brian and all,

We had an interesting discussion in the meeting yesterday about 
indications to the user.

I said that one intention is that the result of the language negotiation 
is provided to the users and that that is already stated in the draft.

In the introduction, we have this sentence: "Both sides should be aware 
of which language was negotiated."

I agree with this statement, and that it is often a requirement for a 
successful start of the call. It is true that the indications are also 
used for routing and selection of participants and user equipment, but 
also the users need to be informed. The answering party need to start 
the call by using the agreed preferred language in the agreed preferred 
modality, otherwise the call will start in confusion.

Imagine a call from a user preferring spoken Greek, ending up at a call 
center agent capable of English and Greek. If the agent starts with a 
greeting in English instead of Greek, the calling user will get unsure 
if Greek can be used, and the call will start in uncertainty or even be 
conducted in English that the caller does not feel confident in.

This is not user interface specification. It is as simple as the 
statement in the introduction : "Both sides should be aware of which 
language was negotiated." The discussion went on saying that we do not 
specify user interfaces in IETF. And that is true, but many times we 
specify items where the user gets aware of the results of the protocol 
interaction. Examples can be call hold and release, picture size and 
orientation, remote camera movements, attended call transfer etc. So, we 
are in good company when we state that both sides are made aware of the 
outcome.

The requirement to keep the user aware of which language was negotiated 
is valid for the current scope of the draft as well as when we include 
preference across media and grouping. We can in fact not yet really 
fulfill that requirement within the current scope because we have not 
defined any way to differentiate preference between languages in 
different media. The outcome of the negotiation can still be undefined. 
We can with the current wording for example say that the caller prefers 
spoken English or written English, but not if there is any preference 
between these two providing awareness to the callee about how to start 
the call.

So, two conclusions:

*1. We need to repeat the statement about bringing awareness at a more 
protruding position in the draft**, and that is not a user interface 
specification.*

I suggest to add a sentence last in 4:

"Information on the accepted language is provided to the participants in 
the call."

and a sentence last in 6.2:

"The caller and callee should be provided with information on the 
outcome of the negotiation. This information is intended to enable them 
to start the call in a preferred language."

*2. **We cannot**avoid to **specify**preference between 
modalities.**L**eav**ing it out would leave**the negotiation 
with**undefined results in many cases and uncertainty about how to start 
the call. *

The caller may prefer to use spoken English but can accept to use 
written English, and want to express that so that no calls are missed. A 
callee with the same preferences get no clue to how to start the call 
from a negotiation resulting in that both spoken and written English are 
accepted without preference between them. A simple indication of the 
most preferred modality would solve this uncertainty in most cases.

I suggest to add an indication of most preferred language as a new 
section 6.4.

6.4 Most preferred language

A mechanism is introduced that provides information on the most 
preferred language among all language indications in the session 
description. This is done in order to provide for a definite outcome of 
the negotiation of language in most cases, and thereby an opportunity 
for the call to start in a fruitful way.

The notation for the most preferred language is a plus ('+') character 
added after the language tag in the value of the corresponding language 
attribute. The notation MAY be used independently on both communication 
directions. The order between this indication and the indication for 
advisory versus required is not relevant.


*Background*

This discussion is in line with the requirement in 3GPP TS 22.228, 
section 7.5.2.  We have no clear obligations towards 3GPP, but It would 
be good if these requirements can be fulfilled without further 
standardisation.

This is what is said in the 3GPP specification:


      7.5.2Negotiation at IM session invocation

It shall be possible for the capability negotiation to take place at the 
time of the IP multimedia session invocation. Refer to clause 7.3 for 
further details on capability negotiation on IP multimedia session 
invocation.

A UE should support negotiation of the user's desired language(s) (as 
defined in IANA [29]) and modalities for spoken, signed and written 
languages.

The system should be able to negotiate the user's desired language(s) 
and modalities, per media stream *and/or session, in order of preference*.

A service provider shall be able to pass language and modality 
information between the endpoints. With respect to the language and 
modality information, there are no other service provider actions required.

--------------------------------------------------

Regards

Gunnar

-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se


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    <p>Brian and all,</p>
    <p>We had an interesting discussion in the meeting yesterday about
      indications to the user.</p>
    <p>I said that one intention is that the result of the language
      negotiation is provided to the users and that that is already
      stated in the draft.<br>
    </p>
    <p>In the introduction, we have this sentence: "<span
        style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
        EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US">Both sides <span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes"></span>should
        be aware of which language was negotiated.<span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes">"</span></span></p>
    <p><span
        style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
        EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif">I agree with this statement, and that it is
            often a requirement for a successful start of the call. It
            is true that the indications are also used for routing and
            selection of participants and user equipment, but also the
            users need to be informed. The answering party need to start
            the call by using the agreed preferred language in the agreed
            preferred modality, otherwise the call will start in
            confusion.</font></span></span></p>
    <p><span
        style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
        EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif">Imagine a call from a user preferring spoken
            Greek, ending up at a call center agent capable of English
            and Greek. If the agent starts with a greeting in English
            instead of Greek, the calling user will get unsure if Greek
            can be used, and the call will start in uncertainty or even
            be conducted in English that the caller does not feel
            confident in. <br>
          </font></span></span></p>
    <p><span
        style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
        EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif">This is not user interface specification. It is
            as simple as the statement in the introduction : </font></span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
        EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif">"<span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
              New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
              EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US">Both sides <span
                style="mso-spacerun:yes"></span>should
              be aware of which language was negotiated.<span
                style="mso-spacerun:yes">"  <font face="Helvetica,
                  Arial, sans-serif">The discussion went on saying that
                  we do not specify user interfaces in IETF. And that is
                  true, but many times we specify items where the user
                  gets aware of the results of the protocol interaction.
                  Examples can be call hold and release, picture size
                  and orientation, remote camera movements, attended
                  call transfer etc. So, we are in good company when we
                  state that both sides are made aware of the outcome.<br>
                </font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
    <p><span
        style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
        EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
              New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
              EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif">The requirement to keep the user aware of
                  which language was negotiated is valid for the current
                  scope of the draft as well as when we include
                  preference across media and grouping. We can in fact
                  not yet really fulfill that requirement within the
                  current scope because we have not defined any way to
                  differentiate preference between languages in
                  different media. The outcome of the negotiation can
                  still be undefined. We can with the current wording
                  for example say that the caller prefers spoken English
                  or written English, but not if there is any preference
                  between these two providing awareness to the callee
                  about how to start the call. <br>
                </font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
    <p><span
        style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
        EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
              New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
              EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif">So, two conclusions:</font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
    <p><span
        style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
        EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
              New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
              EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif"><b>1. We need to repeat the statement
                    about bringing awareness at a more protruding
                    position in the draft</b><b>, and that is not a user
                    interface specification.</b><br>
                  <br>
                  I suggest to add a sentence last in 4:<br>
                </font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
    <p><span
        style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
        EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
              New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
              EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif">"Information on the accepted language is
                  provided to the participants in the call."<br>
                </font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
    <p><span
        style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
        EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
              New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
              EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif">and a sentence last in 6.2: <br>
                </font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
    <p><span
        style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
        EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
              New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
              EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif">"The caller and callee should be provided
                  with information on the outcome of the negotiation.
                  This information is intended to enable them to start
                  the call in a preferred language."<br>
                </font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
    <p><span
        style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
        EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
              New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
              EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif"><b>2. </b><b>We cannot</b><b> avoid to </b><b>specify</b><b>
                    preference between modalities.</b><b> L</b><b>eav</b><b>ing
                    it out would leave</b><b> the negotiation with</b><b>
                    undefined results in many cases and uncertainty
                    about how to start the call. </b><br>
                </font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
    <p><span
        style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
        EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
              New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
              EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif">The caller may prefer to use spoken
                  English but can accept to use written English, and
                  want to express that so that no calls are missed. A
                  callee with the same preferences get no clue to how to
                  start the call from a negotiation resulting in that
                  both spoken and written English are accepted without
                  preference between them. A simple indication of the
                  most preferred modality would solve this uncertainty
                  in most cases.<br>
                </font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
    <p><span
        style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
        EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
              New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
              EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif"> I suggest to add an indication of most
                  preferred language as a new section 6.4.</font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
    <p><span
        style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
        EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
              New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
              EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif">6.4 Most preferred language</font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
    <p><span
        style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
        EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
              New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
              EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif">A mechanism is introduced that provides
                  information on the most preferred language among all
                  language indications in the session description. This
                  is do</font></span></span></font></span></span><span
        style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
        EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
              New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
              EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif"><span
                    style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
                    New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
                    EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                      style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica,
                        Arial, sans-serif"><span
                          style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
                          New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
                          EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                            style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font
                              face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">ne in
                              order to provide for a definite outcome of
                              the negotiation of language in most cases,
                              and thereby an opportunity for the call to
                              start in a fruitful way. <br>
                            </font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
    <p><span
        style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
        EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
              New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
              EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif"><span
                    style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
                    New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
                    EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                      style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica,
                        Arial, sans-serif"><span
                          style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
                          New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
                          EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                            style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font
                              face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">The
                              notation for the most preferred language
                              is a plus ('+') character added after the
                              language tag in the value of the
                              corresponding language attribute. The
                              notation MAY be used independently on both
                              communication directions. The order
                              between this indication and the indication
                              for advisory versus required is not
                              relevant.</font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
    <p><span
        style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
        EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
              New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
              EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif"><span
                    style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
                    New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
                    EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                      style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica,
                        Arial, sans-serif"><span
                          style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
                          New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
                          EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                            style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font
                              face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><br>
                            </font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
    <p><b><span
          style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
          New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
          EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
            style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
              sans-serif"><span
                style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
                New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
                EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                  style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
                    sans-serif"><span
                      style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
                      New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
                      EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                        style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica,
                          Arial, sans-serif"><span
                            style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
                            New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
                            EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                              style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font
                                face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Background</font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></b></p>
    <p><span
        style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
        EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
              New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
              EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif"><span
                    style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
                    New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
                    EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                      style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica,
                        Arial, sans-serif"><span
                          style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
                          New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
                          EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                            style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font
                              face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">This
                              discussion is in line with the requirement
                              in 3GPP TS 22.228, section 7.5.2.  We have
                              no clear obligations towards 3GPP, but It
                              would be good if these requirements can be
                              fulfilled without further standardisation.</font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
    <p>This is what is said in the 3GPP specification:<o:smarttagtype
        namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
        name="PersonName"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
 <o:OfficeDocumentSettings>
  <o:TargetScreenSize>800x600</o:TargetScreenSize>
 </o:OfficeDocumentSettings>
</xml><![endif]-->
        <link rel="themeData"
href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CGunnar%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_themedata.thmx">
        <link rel="colorSchemeMapping"
href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CGunnar%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_colorschememapping.xml">
        <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
 <w:WordDocument>
  <w:View>Normal</w:View>
  <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom>
  <w:TrackMoves/>
  <w:TrackFormatting/>
  <w:DoNotShowPropertyChanges/>
  <w:PunctuationKerning/>
  <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/>
  <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>
  <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent>
  <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>
  <w:DoNotPromoteQF/>
  <w:LidThemeOther>EN-GB</w:LidThemeOther>
  <w:LidThemeAsian>X-NONE</w:LidThemeAsian>
  <w:LidThemeComplexScript>X-NONE</w:LidThemeComplexScript>
  <w:Compatibility>
   <w:BreakWrappedTables/>
   <w:SnapToGridInCell/>
   <w:WrapTextWithPunct/>
   <w:UseAsianBreakRules/>
   <w:DontGrowAutofit/>
   <w:SplitPgBreakAndParaMark/>
   <w:EnableOpenTypeKerning/>
   <w:DontFlipMirrorIndents/>
   <w:OverrideTableStyleHps/>
  </w:Compatibility>
  <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel>
  <m:mathPr>
   <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/>
   <m:brkBin m:val="before"/>
   <m:brkBinSub m:val="&#45;-"/>
   <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/>
   <m:dispDef/>
   <m:lMargin m:val="0"/>
   <m:rMargin m:val="0"/>
   <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/>
   <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/>
   <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/>
   <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/>
  </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument>
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
 <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" DefUnhideWhenUsed="false"
  DefSemiHidden="false" DefQFormat="false" DefPriority="99"
  LatentStyleCount="371">
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="0" QFormat="true" Name="Normal"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" QFormat="true" Name="heading 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" SemiHidden="true"
   UnhideWhenUsed="true" QFormat="true" Name="heading 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="0" SemiHidden="true"
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   UnhideWhenUsed="true" QFormat="true" Name="heading 4"/>
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   UnhideWhenUsed="true" QFormat="true" Name="heading 8"/>
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="index 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" SemiHidden="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="20" QFormat="true" Name="Emphasis"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Document Map"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Plain Text"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="E-mail Signature"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="HTML Top of Form"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="HTML Bottom of Form"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Normal (Web)"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="HTML Acronym"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="HTML Address"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="HTML Cite"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="HTML Code"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="HTML Definition"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="HTML Keyboard"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="HTML Preformatted"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="HTML Sample"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="HTML Typewriter"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="HTML Variable"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Normal Table"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="annotation subject"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Outline List 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Outline List 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Outline List 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Simple 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Simple 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Classic 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Classic 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Classic 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Columns 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Columns 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Grid 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Grid 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Grid 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Grid 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table List 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table List 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="Table Grid"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" Name="Placeholder Text"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="1" QFormat="true" Name="No Spacing"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" Name="Revision"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="34" QFormat="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="29" QFormat="true" Name="Quote"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="30" QFormat="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 3"/>
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 4"/>
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 4"/>
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 5"/>
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 6"/>
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="19" QFormat="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="21" QFormat="true"
   Name="Intense Emphasis"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="31" QFormat="true"
   Name="Subtle Reference"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="32" QFormat="true"
   Name="Intense Reference"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="33" QFormat="true" Name="Book Title"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="37" SemiHidden="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" SemiHidden="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="43" Name="Plain Table 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="44" Name="Plain Table 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="45" Name="Plain Table 5"/>
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46" Name="Grid Table 1 Light"/>
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51" Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52" Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 1"/>
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"
   Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"
   Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 2"/>
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"
   Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"
   Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"
   Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 3"/>
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"
   Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"
   Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"
   Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 4"/>
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"
   Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"
   Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"
   Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 5"/>
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"
   Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"
   Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"
   Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"
   Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46" Name="List Table 1 Light"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="List Table 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="List Table 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="List Table 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="List Table 5 Dark"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51" Name="List Table 6 Colorful"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52" Name="List Table 7 Colorful"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"
   Name="List Table 1 Light Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="List Table 2 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="List Table 3 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="List Table 4 Accent 1"/>
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"
   Name="List Table 6 Colorful Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"
   Name="List Table 7 Colorful Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"
   Name="List Table 1 Light Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="List Table 2 Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="List Table 3 Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="List Table 4 Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="List Table 5 Dark Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"
   Name="List Table 6 Colorful Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"
   Name="List Table 7 Colorful Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"
   Name="List Table 1 Light Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="List Table 2 Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="List Table 3 Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="List Table 4 Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="List Table 5 Dark Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"
   Name="List Table 6 Colorful Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"
   Name="List Table 7 Colorful Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"
   Name="List Table 1 Light Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="List Table 2 Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="List Table 3 Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="List Table 4 Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="List Table 5 Dark Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"
   Name="List Table 6 Colorful Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"
   Name="List Table 7 Colorful Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"
   Name="List Table 1 Light Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="List Table 2 Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="List Table 3 Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="List Table 4 Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="List Table 5 Dark Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"
   Name="List Table 6 Colorful Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"
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      </o:smarttagtype><o:smarttagtype
        namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
        name="PersonName">
        <h3><a name="_Toc406715059">7.5.2<span style="mso-tab-count:1">      
            </span>Negotiation
            at IM session invocation</a><o:p></o:p></h3>
      </o:smarttagtype><o:smarttagtype
        namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
        name="PersonName">
        <p class="MsoNormal">It shall be possible for the capability
          negotiation to take
          place at the time of the IP multimedia session invocation.
          Refer to clause 7.3
          for further details on capability negotiation on IP multimedia
          session
          invocation.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">A UE should support negotiation of the
          user's desired
          language(s) (as defined in <span
            style="mso-ansi-language:EN-US" lang="EN-US">IANA
            [29]) </span>and modalities for spoken, signed and written
          languages.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">The system should be able to negotiate the
          user's desired language(s)
          and modalities, per media stream <font color="#cc0000"><b>and/or
              session, in order of preference</b></font>.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">A service provider shall be able to pass
          language and
          modality <st1:personname w:st="on">info</st1:personname>rmation
          between the
          endpoints. With respect to the language and modality <st1:personname
            w:st="on">info</st1:personname>rmation,
          there are no other service provider actions required.<o:p></o:p></p>
      </o:smarttagtype></p>
    <p><span
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        New&quot;;
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          style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
              New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
              EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif"><span
                    style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
                    New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
                    EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                      style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica,
                        Arial, sans-serif"><span
                          style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
                          New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
                          EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                            style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font
                              face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">--------------------------------------------------</font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
    <p><span
        style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
        EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
              New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
              EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif"><span
                    style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
                    New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
                    EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                      style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica,
                        Arial, sans-serif"><span
                          style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
                          New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
                          EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                            style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font
                              face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Regards</font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
    <p><span
        style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
        EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
              New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
              EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif"><span
                    style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
                    New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
                    EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                      style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica,
                        Arial, sans-serif"><span
                          style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
                          New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
                          EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                            style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font
                              face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Gunnar<br>
                            </font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
    <p><span
        style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
        EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes"></span></span></p>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>
</pre>
  </body>
</html>

--------------2C68FB55DF7CB9AD0737F82E--


From nobody Wed Jul 20 01:44:39 2016
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Subject: Re: [Slim] Edit proposals to draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-01
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Hi Gunnar,

As I mentioned in the meeting, I am going through the Word document 
and looking at your suggested changes.  No need to do anything 
further for now.

--Randy

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
A nation is a society united by delusions about its ancestry and
united by common hatred of its neighbors.            --Dean Inge


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I=92m very sensitive to user interface issues, and have some modest =
experience building good ones.

I=92m also pretty firm that protocol standards must not deal, in any =
way, with user interfaces, other than, sometimes, providing some =
information in protocol messages that are not strictly speaking required =
for the proper implementation of the protocol.

When I read a statement that =93both sides should be aware of which =
language was negotiated=94, I interpret that as the implementation (that =
is, the code), and not the humans.  It means that the messages in the =
protocol must result in both ends of the protocol knowing the result.  =
We do use the word =93users=94 occasionally in protocol documents, and =
that=92s the term I expect to see when we mean the humans.=20

The document does describe a mechanism where both ends of the =
negotiation know the result, and thus we fulfill the requirement with no =
further work.  User interfaces are free to present anything they want.  =
I can easily describe a scenario where they do not present the results =
of the protocol negotiation: we may have one interpreter who is =
interpreting English to ASL on video, and another one who is =
interpreting English to Spanish text.  The ASL interpreter doesn=92t =
doesn=92t need to know what is happening in the text change and the =
Spanish interpreter doesn=92t need to know what is happening in the ASL =
channel.

Thus I don=92t think any further work is needed.

Brian

> On Jul 20, 2016, at 10:23 AM, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m =
<gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se> wrote:
>=20
> Brian and all,
>=20
> We had an interesting discussion in the meeting yesterday about =
indications to the user.
>=20
> I said that one intention is that the result of the language =
negotiation is provided to the users and that that is already stated in =
the draft.
>=20
> In the introduction, we have this sentence: "Both sides should be =
aware of which language was negotiated."
>=20
> I agree with this statement, and that it is often a requirement for a =
successful start of the call. It is true that the indications are also =
used for routing and selection of participants and user equipment, but =
also the users need to be informed. The answering party need to start =
the call by using the agreed preferred language in the agreed preferred =
modality, otherwise the call will start in confusion.
>=20
> Imagine a call from a user preferring spoken Greek, ending up at a =
call center agent capable of English and Greek. If the agent starts with =
a greeting in English instead of Greek, the calling user will get unsure =
if Greek can be used, and the call will start in uncertainty or even be =
conducted in English that the caller does not feel confident in.=20
>=20
> This is not user interface specification. It is as simple as the =
statement in the introduction : "Both sides should be aware of which =
language was negotiated."  The discussion went on saying that we do not =
specify user interfaces in IETF. And that is true, but many times we =
specify items where the user gets aware of the results of the protocol =
interaction. Examples can be call hold and release, picture size and =
orientation, remote camera movements, attended call transfer etc. So, we =
are in good company when we state that both sides are made aware of the =
outcome.
>=20
> The requirement to keep the user aware of which language was =
negotiated is valid for the current scope of the draft as well as when =
we include preference across media and grouping. We can in fact not yet =
really fulfill that requirement within the current scope because we have =
not defined any way to differentiate preference between languages in =
different media. The outcome of the negotiation can still be undefined. =
We can with the current wording for example say that the caller prefers =
spoken English or written English, but not if there is any preference =
between these two providing awareness to the callee about how to start =
the call.=20
>=20
> So, two conclusions:
>=20
> 1. We need to repeat the statement about bringing awareness at a more =
protruding position in the draft, and that is not a user interface =
specification.
>=20
> I suggest to add a sentence last in 4:
>=20
> "Information on the accepted language is provided to the participants =
in the call."
>=20
> and a sentence last in 6.2:=20
>=20
> "The caller and callee should be provided with information on the =
outcome of the negotiation. This information is intended to enable them =
to start the call in a preferred language."
>=20
> 2. We cannot avoid to specify preference between modalities. Leaving =
it out would leave the negotiation withundefined results in many cases =
and uncertainty about how to start the call.=20
>=20
> The caller may prefer to use spoken English but can accept to use =
written English, and want to express that so that no calls are missed. A =
callee with the same preferences get no clue to how to start the call =
from a negotiation resulting in that both spoken and written English are =
accepted without preference between them. A simple indication of the =
most preferred modality would solve this uncertainty in most cases.
>=20
> I suggest to add an indication of most preferred language as a new =
section 6.4.
>=20
> 6.4 Most preferred language
>=20
> A mechanism is introduced that provides information on the most =
preferred language among all language indications in the session =
description. This is done in order to provide for a definite outcome of =
the negotiation of language in most cases, and thereby an opportunity =
for the call to start in a fruitful way.=20
>=20
> The notation for the most preferred language is a plus ('+') character =
added after the language tag in the value of the corresponding language =
attribute. The notation MAY be used independently on both communication =
directions. The order between this indication and the indication for =
advisory versus required is not relevant.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Background
>=20
> This discussion is in line with the requirement in 3GPP TS 22.228, =
section 7.5.2.  We have no clear obligations towards 3GPP, but It would =
be good if these requirements can be fulfilled without further =
standardisation.
>=20
> This is what is said in the 3GPP specification:
>=20
> 7.5.2=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Negotiation at IM session invocation <>
> It shall be possible for the capability negotiation to take place at =
the time of the IP multimedia session invocation. Refer to clause 7.3 =
for further details on capability negotiation on IP multimedia session =
invocation.
>=20
> A UE should support negotiation of the user's desired language(s) (as =
defined in IANA [29]) and modalities for spoken, signed and written =
languages.
>=20
> The system should be able to negotiate the user's desired language(s) =
and modalities, per media stream and/or session, in order of preference.
>=20
> A service provider shall be able to pass language and modality =
information between the endpoints. With respect to the language and =
modality information, there are no other service provider actions =
required.
>=20
>=20
> --------------------------------------------------
>=20
> Regards
>=20
> Gunnar
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> -----------------------------------------
> Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
> Omnitor
> gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">I=92m very sensitive to user interface issues, and have some =
modest experience building good ones.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=92m also pretty firm that protocol =
standards must not deal, in any way, with user interfaces, other than, =
sometimes, providing some information in protocol messages that are not =
strictly speaking required for the proper implementation of the =
protocol.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">When =
I read a statement that =93both sides should be aware of which language =
was negotiated=94, I interpret that as the implementation (that is, the =
code), and not the humans. &nbsp;It means that the messages in the =
protocol must result in both ends of the protocol knowing the result. =
&nbsp;We do use the word =93users=94 occasionally in protocol documents, =
and that=92s the term I expect to see when we mean the =
humans.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">The document does describe a mechanism where both ends of the =
negotiation know the result, and thus we fulfill the requirement with no =
further work. &nbsp;User interfaces are free to present anything they =
want. &nbsp;I can easily describe a scenario where they do not present =
the results of the protocol negotiation: we may have one interpreter who =
is interpreting English to ASL on video, and another one who is =
interpreting English to Spanish text. &nbsp;The ASL interpreter doesn=92t =
doesn=92t need to know what is happening in the text change and the =
Spanish interpreter doesn=92t need to know what is happening in the ASL =
channel.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Thus =
I don=92t think any further work is needed.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Brian</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Jul 20, 2016, at 10:23 AM, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se" =
class=3D"">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><p =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D"">Brian and all,</p><p style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">We had an interesting =
discussion in the meeting yesterday about indications to the user.</p><p =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D"">I said that one intention is that the result of the language =
negotiation is provided to the users and that that is already stated in =
the draft.<br class=3D""></p><p style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">In the introduction, =
we have this sentence: "<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" class=3D"">Both sides<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D""></span>should be aware of which language was negotiated.<span =
class=3D"">"</span></span></p><p style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif" class=3D"">I agree with this statement, and that =
it is often a requirement for a successful start of the call. It is true =
that the indications are also used for routing and selection of =
participants and user equipment, but also the users need to be informed. =
The answering party need to start the call by using the agreed preferred =
language in the agreed preferred modality, otherwise the call will start =
in confusion.</font></span></span></p><p style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif" class=3D"">Imagine a call from a user preferring =
spoken Greek, ending up at a call center agent capable of English and =
Greek. If the agent starts with a greeting in English instead of Greek, =
the calling user will get unsure if Greek can be used, and the call will =
start in uncertainty or even be conducted in English that the caller =
does not feel confident in.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></p><p style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif" class=3D"">This is not user interface =
specification. It is as simple as the statement in the introduction =
:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></font></span></span><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;" class=3D""><span class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif" class=3D"">"<span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D"">Both sides<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D""></span>should be aware of which language was negotiated.<span =
class=3D"">"&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><font=
 face=3D"Helvetica,
                  Arial, sans-serif" class=3D"">The discussion went on =
saying that we do not specify user interfaces in IETF. And that is true, =
but many times we specify items where the user gets aware of the results =
of the protocol interaction. Examples can be call hold and release, =
picture size and orientation, remote camera movements, attended call =
transfer etc. So, we are in good company when we state that both sides =
are made aware of the outcome.<br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;" class=3D""><span class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif" class=3D"">The requirement to keep the =
user aware of which language was negotiated is valid for the current =
scope of the draft as well as when we include preference across media =
and grouping. We can in fact not yet really fulfill that requirement =
within the current scope because we have not defined any way to =
differentiate preference between languages in different media. The =
outcome of the negotiation can still be undefined. We can with the =
current wording for example say that the caller prefers spoken English =
or written English, but not if there is any preference between these two =
providing awareness to the callee about how to start the call.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;" class=3D""><span class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif" class=3D"">So, two =
conclusions:</font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;" class=3D""><span class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif" class=3D""><b class=3D"">1. We need to =
repeat the statement about bringing awareness at a more protruding =
position in the draft</b><b class=3D"">, and that is not a user =
interface specification.</b><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I suggest to =
add a sentence last in 4:<br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;" class=3D""><span class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif" class=3D"">"Information on the accepted =
language is provided to the participants in the call."<br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;" class=3D""><span class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif" class=3D"">and a sentence last in =
6.2:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;" class=3D""><span class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif" class=3D"">"The caller and callee should =
be provided with information on the outcome of the negotiation. This =
information is intended to enable them to start the call in a preferred =
language."<br class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;" class=3D""><span class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif" class=3D""><b class=3D"">2.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><b class=3D"">We =
cannot</b><b class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>avoid to<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><b =
class=3D"">specify</b><b class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>preference between =
modalities.</b><b class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>L</b><b class=3D"">eav</b><b =
class=3D"">ing it out would leave</b><b class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>the negotiation with</b><b =
class=3D"">undefined results in many cases and uncertainty about how to =
start the call.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;" class=3D""><span class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif" class=3D"">The caller may prefer to use =
spoken English but can accept to use written English, and want to =
express that so that no calls are missed. A callee with the same =
preferences get no clue to how to start the call from a negotiation =
resulting in that both spoken and written English are accepted without =
preference between them. A simple indication of the most preferred =
modality would solve this uncertainty in most cases.<br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;" class=3D""><span class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif" class=3D"">I suggest to add an indication =
of most preferred language as a new section =
6.4.</font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p style=3D"font-family:=
 Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif" class=3D"">6.4 Most preferred =
language</font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;" class=3D""><span class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif" class=3D"">A mechanism is introduced that =
provides information on the most preferred language among all language =
indications in the session description. This is =
do</font></span></span></font></span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica,
                        Arial, sans-serif" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
 style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" =
class=3D"">ne in order to provide for a definite outcome of the =
negotiation of language in most cases, and thereby an opportunity for =
the call to start in a fruitful way.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span>=
</font></span></span></p><p style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica,
                        Arial, sans-serif" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
 style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" =
class=3D"">The notation for the most preferred language is a plus ('+') =
character added after the language tag in the value of the corresponding =
language attribute. The notation MAY be used independently on both =
communication directions. The order between this indication and the =
indication for advisory versus required is not =
relevant.</font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></=
font></span></span></p><p style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica,
                        Arial, sans-serif" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
 style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" =
class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span>=
</font></span></span></p><p style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;" class=3D""><span class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
              sans-serif" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                    sans-serif" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica,
                          Arial, sans-serif" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;" class=3D""><span class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" =
class=3D"">Background</font></span></span></font></span></span></font></sp=
an></span></font></span></span></b></p><p style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica,
                        Arial, sans-serif" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
 style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" =
class=3D"">This discussion is in line with the requirement in 3GPP TS =
22.228, section 7.5.2.&nbsp; We have no clear obligations towards 3GPP, =
but It would be good if these requirements can be fulfilled without =
further =
standardisation.</font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></=
span></font></span></span></p><p style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">This is what is said =
in the 3GPP specification:<o:smarttagtype =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
name=3D"PersonName" class=3D""></o:smarttagtype><o:smarttagtype =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
name=3D"PersonName" class=3D""></o:smarttagtype></p><h3 style=3D"margin: =
6pt 0cm 9pt 2cm; text-indent: -2cm; page-break-after: avoid; font-size: =
14pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-weight: normal; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: =
auto; text-align: start; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><a =
name=3D"_Toc406715059" class=3D"">7.5.2<span =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>Negotiation at IM =
session invocation</a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></h3><o:smarttagtype =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
name=3D"PersonName" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 9pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">It =
shall be possible for the capability negotiation to take place at the =
time of the IP multimedia session invocation. Refer to clause 7.3 for =
further details on capability negotiation on IP multimedia session =
invocation.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 9pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;">A UE should support negotiation of the user's desired =
language(s) (as defined in<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">IANA [29])<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>and modalities for =
spoken, signed and written languages.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 9pt; font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">The system should be able to =
negotiate the user's desired language(s) and modalities, per media =
stream<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><font =
color=3D"#cc0000" class=3D""><b class=3D"">and/or session, in order of =
preference</b></font>.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 9pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;">A service provider shall be able to pass language and =
modality<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><st1:personname=
 w:st=3D"on" class=3D"">info</st1:personname>rmation between the =
endpoints. With respect to the language and modality<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><st1:personname w:st=3D"on" =
class=3D"">info</st1:personname>rmation, there are no other service =
provider actions required.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p></o:smarttagtype><div =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;" class=3D""><span class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica,
                        Arial, sans-serif" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
 style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" =
class=3D"">--------------------------------------------------</font></span=
></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></p=
><p style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" class=3D""><span class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica,
                        Arial, sans-serif" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
 style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" =
class=3D"">Regards</font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span>=
</span></font></span></span></p><p style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica,
                        Arial, sans-serif" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
 style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" =
class=3D"">Gunnar<br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span>=
</font></span></span></p><div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D""></span></span><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><pre class=3D"moz-signature" =
cols=3D"72" style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">--=20
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
Omnitor
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" =
href=3D"mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a=
>
</pre></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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Subject: Re: [Slim] IETF96 - negotiating-human-language sections 5 and 6.2
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At 12:30 AM +0200 7/20/16, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m wrote:

>  Den 2016-07-19 kl. 23:24, skrev Randall Gellens:
>
>>  At 10:52 PM +0200 7/19/16, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m wrote:
>>
>>>  Randall,
>>>
>>>  Den 2016-07-19 kl. 16:35, skrev Randall Gellens:
>>>
>>>>  To address the two action items in the=20
>>>> real-time draft from today's discussion, I=20
>>>> propose to make the following two changes:
>>>>
>>>>  Replace all of Section 5 with:
>>>>
>>>  I still think it is not our task to criticize=20
>>> RFC 4566 when we do not need. I proposed to=20
>>> just motivate our decision on the fact that=20
>>> the lang attribute does not have sufficient=20
>>> detail. We have agreed to describe languages=20
>>> per direction, and that is not supported by=20
>>> 'lang'
>>>
>>
>>  The history of that decision is that it was=20
>> done after the agreement that the existing=20
>> 'lang' attribute couldn't be used. It's=20
>> additional, I'm not sure it's sufficient. If=20
>> you object so strongly to the simple statement=20
>> that the existing semantics are not clear=20
>> (which is evidenced by the debate over what=20
>> they mean), I can delete all justification and=20
>> simply say that the group decided not to use=20
>> it. After all, anything we say as to why can=20
>> be argued with, as you are doing here.
>>
>  A motivation is needed, and the clear one is the direction. Please use th=
at.

As I said, directionality was considered only=20
after it was agreed that the existing attribute=20
wasn't suitable.  The draft need only reflect=20
group consensus.  The level of detail and=20
justification is not mandated.  Personally, I=20
prefer more background information, but I am OK=20
saying very little to avoid endless debate over=20
words.

>
>>
>>>
>>>  So, here is my proposed rewording:
>>>
>>>  RFC 4566 [RFC4566] specifies an attribute 'lang' which appears
>>>  similar to what is needed here. We need=20
>>> however a more detailed specification than=20
>>> the 'lang' attribute provides. We need a way=20
>>> to negotiate which language is used in each=20
>>> stream and direction in the session. This=20
>>> document therefore defines two new attributes.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>  (Your proposal was
>>>
>>>>  RFC 4566 [RFC4566] specifies an attribute 'lang' which appears
>>>>  similar to what is needed here, but in considering its use the group
>>>>  felt its semantics were ambiguous, noted that there was not much
>>>>  evidence of its use (and thus less likelihood of conflict or
>>>>  confusion in defining new attributes), and that there was value in
>>>>  being able to specify language per direction (sending and receiving).
>>>>  This document therefore defines two new attributes.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  This deletes all interpretation of the=20
>>>> existing attribute (while retaining mention=20
>>>> that interpretation is needed) and mentions=20
>>>> the value in being able to specify language=20
>>>> per direction.
>>>>
>>>  )
>>>
>>>>
>>>>  In Section 6.2, change "the languages the=20
>>>> offerer wishes to" to "...is willing to".
>>>>
>>>  You mentioned "is capable to" during the meeting. I think that is bette=
r.
>>>
>>
>>  I mentioned it because it was your suggested=20
>> phrase and I feel it is not clear nor correct=20
>> English nor correct technically. What I=20
>> suggested in the meeting was saying "supports"=20
>> which is what I think you meant by "is capable=20
>> to", but when I made the change to the draft,=20
>> I realized that it was incorrect. Most clients=20
>> will be capable of supporting virtually any=20
>> language; obviously the client isn't going to=20
>> try and establish sessions for every language.=20
>> It's going to do what it determines the user=20
>> wants. I think the original wording of=20
>> "wishes" is best but I am happy to change it.
>>
>>>  We need to avoid to give the impression that=20
>>> the user in the normal case intends to use=20
>>> more than one of the indicated languages.
>>>
>>
>>  No, we do not, because that gets into user=20
>> interface issues which are out of scope. We=20
>> need to establish at the protocol level which=20
>> languages are established.
>>
>>>  "is willing to" is better than "wishes" but I=20
>>> still think that "is capable of" is even more=20
>>> free of implication that the desire is to use=20
>>> more than one.
>>>
>>>  There are two more occurrences of "wishes" in=20
>>> section 6.2. Please look at the change=20
>>> proposal file I just sent to the list and=20
>>> make your proposals from it ( I know my=20
>>> proposals are not perfect either).
>>>
>>>  Earlier ( in April) you also proposed to=20
>>> delete the phrase "to indicate the language=20
>>> used when sending
>>>  and receiving media" at the end of the first=20
>>> paragraph in 6.2. I still support that=20
>>> proposal,
>>>  because the full reasoning of the purpose and=20
>>> usage of the attributes follow.
>>>
>>
>>  That change was made but missed getting in to=20
>> -01. It is in -02. I didn't include it in the=20
>> email because it was stylistic and not germane=20
>> to the action item, so I felt it would be=20
>> confusing to include.
>>
>>  Here is the full paragraph as it is now:
>>
>>  In an offer, 'humintlang-send' indicates the language(s) the offerer
>>  is willing to use when sending using the media, and 'humintlang-recv'
>>  indicates the language(s) the offerer is willing to use when
>>  receiving using the media. In both cases the values constitute a
>>  list of languages in preference order (first is most preferred). In
>>  cases where the user wishes to use a media in one direction only
>>  (such as a speech-impaired user who wishes to send using text and
>>  receive using audio), one of the two MAY be unset. In cases where a
>>  media is not primarily intended for language (for example, a video or
>>  audio stream intended for background only) both SHOULD be unset. In
>>  other cases, both SHOULD have the same values in the same order. The
>>  two SHOULD NOT be set to languages which are difficult to match
>>  together (e.g., specifying a desire to send audio in Hungarian and
>>  receive audio in Portuguese will make it difficult to successfully
>>  complete the call).
>>
>  OK, I can accept "is willing". So, this text is close to good.

Happy to hear it.

>
>  However, there is another small item, I=20
> remember I bounced at the first times I read=20
> this. It is this phrase:
>  " In cases where the user wishes to use a media in one direction only
>  (such as a speech-impaired user who wishes to send using text and
>  receive using audio), one of the two MAY be unset."
>
>  I was thinking of "the two" as text and speech=20
> attributes and wondered why you did not want to=20
> set both.
>  Eventually I realized that you thought about=20
> the two directions of each media. So, I suggest=20
> to clarify like this:
>
>  In cases where the user wishes to use a media in one direction only
>  (such as a speech-impaired user who wishes to send using text and
>  receive using audio), one of the two MAY be unset for that media.

I have reworded the text to be more clear.  Here is the revised sentence:

    In cases where a
    media is intended for use in one direction only (such as a speech-
    impaired user sending using text and receiving using audio), either
    humintlang-send or humintlang-recv MAY be unset.



-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
2 + 2 = 5 for extremely large values of 2.


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From: Brian Rosen <br@brianrosen.net>
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To: Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>
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Subject: Re: [Slim] IETF96 - negotiating-human-language sections 5 and 6.2
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	charset=utf-8

I find =E2=80=9Cunset=E2=80=9D to be confusing.

Could we agree on =E2=80=9Ceither of humintlang-send or humintlang-recv =
MAY be specified.=E2=80=9D

Brian
> On Jul 20, 2016, at 11:04 AM, Randall Gellens =
<rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote:
>=20
> At 12:30 AM +0200 7/20/16, Gunnar Hellstr=C3=B6m wrote:
>=20
>> Den 2016-07-19 kl. 23:24, skrev Randall Gellens:
>>=20
>>> At 10:52 PM +0200 7/19/16, Gunnar Hellstr=C3=B6m wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> Randall,
>>>>=20
>>>> Den 2016-07-19 kl. 16:35, skrev Randall Gellens:
>>>>=20
>>>>> To address the two action items in the real-time draft from =
today's discussion, I propose to make the following two changes:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Replace all of Section 5 with:
>>>>>=20
>>>> I still think it is not our task to criticize RFC 4566 when we do =
not need. I proposed to just motivate our decision on the fact that the =
lang attribute does not have sufficient detail. We have agreed to =
describe languages per direction, and that is not supported by 'lang'
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> The history of that decision is that it was done after the agreement =
that the existing 'lang' attribute couldn't be used. It's additional, =
I'm not sure it's sufficient. If you object so strongly to the simple =
statement that the existing semantics are not clear (which is evidenced =
by the debate over what they mean), I can delete all justification and =
simply say that the group decided not to use it. After all, anything we =
say as to why can be argued with, as you are doing here.
>>>=20
>> A motivation is needed, and the clear one is the direction. Please =
use that.
>=20
> As I said, directionality was considered only after it was agreed that =
the existing attribute wasn't suitable.  The draft need only reflect =
group consensus. The level of detail and justification is not mandated.  =
Personally, I prefer more background information, but I am OK saying =
very little to avoid endless debate over words.
>=20
>>=20
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> So, here is my proposed rewording:
>>>>=20
>>>> RFC 4566 [RFC4566] specifies an attribute 'lang' which appears
>>>> similar to what is needed here. We need however a more detailed =
specification than the 'lang' attribute provides. We need a way to =
negotiate which language is used in each stream and direction in the =
session. This document therefore defines two new attributes.
>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>> (Your proposal was
>>>>=20
>>>>> RFC 4566 [RFC4566] specifies an attribute 'lang' which appears
>>>>> similar to what is needed here, but in considering its use the =
group
>>>>> felt its semantics were ambiguous, noted that there was not much
>>>>> evidence of its use (and thus less likelihood of conflict or
>>>>> confusion in defining new attributes), and that there was value in
>>>>> being able to specify language per direction (sending and =
receiving).
>>>>> This document therefore defines two new attributes.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> This deletes all interpretation of the existing attribute (while =
retaining mention that interpretation is needed) and mentions the value =
in being able to specify language per direction.
>>>>>=20
>>>> )
>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> In Section 6.2, change "the languages the offerer wishes to" to =
"...is willing to".
>>>>>=20
>>>> You mentioned "is capable to" during the meeting. I think that is =
better.
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> I mentioned it because it was your suggested phrase and I feel it is =
not clear nor correct English nor correct technically. What I suggested =
in the meeting was saying "supports" which is what I think you meant by =
"is capable to", but when I made the change to the draft, I realized =
that it was incorrect. Most clients will be capable of supporting =
virtually any language; obviously the client isn't going to try and =
establish sessions for every language. It's going to do what it =
determines the user wants. I think the original wording of "wishes" is =
best but I am happy to change it.
>>>=20
>>>> We need to avoid to give the impression that the user in the normal =
case intends to use more than one of the indicated languages.
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> No, we do not, because that gets into user interface issues which =
are out of scope. We need to establish at the protocol level which =
languages are established.
>>>=20
>>>> "is willing to" is better than "wishes" but I still think that "is =
capable of" is even more free of implication that the desire is to use =
more than one.
>>>>=20
>>>> There are two more occurrences of "wishes" in section 6.2. Please =
look at the change proposal file I just sent to the list and make your =
proposals from it ( I know my proposals are not perfect either).
>>>>=20
>>>> Earlier ( in April) you also proposed to delete the phrase "to =
indicate the language used when sending
>>>> and receiving media" at the end of the first paragraph in 6.2. I =
still support that proposal,
>>>> because the full reasoning of the purpose and usage of the =
attributes follow.
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> That change was made but missed getting in to -01. It is in -02. I =
didn't include it in the email because it was stylistic and not germane =
to the action item, so I felt it would be confusing to include.
>>>=20
>>> Here is the full paragraph as it is now:
>>>=20
>>> In an offer, 'humintlang-send' indicates the language(s) the offerer
>>> is willing to use when sending using the media, and =
'humintlang-recv'
>>> indicates the language(s) the offerer is willing to use when
>>> receiving using the media. In both cases the values constitute a
>>> list of languages in preference order (first is most preferred). In
>>> cases where the user wishes to use a media in one direction only
>>> (such as a speech-impaired user who wishes to send using text and
>>> receive using audio), one of the two MAY be unset. In cases where a
>>> media is not primarily intended for language (for example, a video =
or
>>> audio stream intended for background only) both SHOULD be unset. In
>>> other cases, both SHOULD have the same values in the same order. The
>>> two SHOULD NOT be set to languages which are difficult to match
>>> together (e.g., specifying a desire to send audio in Hungarian and
>>> receive audio in Portuguese will make it difficult to successfully
>>> complete the call).
>>>=20
>> OK, I can accept "is willing". So, this text is close to good.
>=20
> Happy to hear it.
>=20
>>=20
>> However, there is another small item, I remember I bounced at the =
first times I read this. It is this phrase:
>> " In cases where the user wishes to use a media in one direction only
>> (such as a speech-impaired user who wishes to send using text and
>> receive using audio), one of the two MAY be unset."
>>=20
>> I was thinking of "the two" as text and speech attributes and =
wondered why you did not want to set both.
>> Eventually I realized that you thought about the two directions of =
each media. So, I suggest to clarify like this:
>>=20
>> In cases where the user wishes to use a media in one direction only
>> (such as a speech-impaired user who wishes to send using text and
>> receive using audio), one of the two MAY be unset for that media.
>=20
> I have reworded the text to be more clear.  Here is the revised =
sentence:
>=20
>   In cases where a
>   media is intended for use in one direction only (such as a speech-
>   impaired user sending using text and receiving using audio), either
>   humintlang-send or humintlang-recv MAY be unset.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Randall Gellens
> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself =
only
> -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
> 2 + 2 =3D 5 for extremely large values of 2.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> SLIM mailing list
> SLIM@ietf.org <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">I find =E2=80=9Cunset=E2=80=9D to be confusing.<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Could we agree on =
=E2=80=9Ceither of<span class=3D"" style=3D"float: none; display: inline =
!important;">&nbsp;humintlang-send or humintlang-recv MAY be =
specified.=E2=80=9D</span></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Brian<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jul 20, 2016, at 11:04 AM, Randall Gellens =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org" =
class=3D"">rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">At 12:30 AM +0200 7/20/16, Gunnar Hellstr=C3=B6m =
wrote:</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">Den 2016-07-19 kl. 23:24, =
skrev Randall Gellens:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">At 10:52 PM +0200 7/19/16, Gunnar Hellstr=C3=B6m =
wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">Randall,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Den 2016-07-19 kl. =
16:35, skrev Randall Gellens:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">To address the two action items in the =
real-time draft from today's discussion, I propose to make the following =
two changes:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Replace all of Section 5 =
with:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></blockquote>I still think it is not =
our task to criticize RFC 4566 when we do not need. I proposed to just =
motivate our decision on the fact that the lang attribute does not have =
sufficient detail. We have agreed to describe languages per direction, =
and that is not supported by 'lang'<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">The history of that decision is =
that it was done after the agreement that the existing 'lang' attribute =
couldn't be used. It's additional, I'm not sure it's sufficient. If you =
object so strongly to the simple statement that the existing semantics =
are not clear (which is evidenced by the debate over what they mean), I =
can delete all justification and simply say that the group decided not =
to use it. After all, anything we say as to why can be argued with, as =
you are doing here.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></blockquote>A =
motivation is needed, and the clear one is the direction. Please use =
that.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: =
inline !important;" class=3D"">As I said, directionality was considered =
only after it was agreed that the existing attribute wasn't suitable. =
&nbsp;The draft need only reflect group consensus. The level of detail =
and justification is not mandated. &nbsp;Personally, I prefer more =
background information, but I am OK saying very little to avoid endless =
debate over words.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">So, here is my proposed rewording:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">RFC 4566 [RFC4566] specifies an attribute =
'lang' which appears<br class=3D"">similar to what is needed here. We =
need however a more detailed specification than the 'lang' attribute =
provides. We need a way to negotiate which language is used in each =
stream and direction in the session. This document therefore defines two =
new attributes.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""></blockquote>(Your=
 proposal was<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">RFC 4566 [RFC4566] specifies an attribute 'lang' which =
appears<br class=3D"">similar to what is needed here, but in considering =
its use the group<br class=3D"">felt its semantics were ambiguous, noted =
that there was not much<br class=3D"">evidence of its use (and thus less =
likelihood of conflict or<br class=3D"">confusion in defining new =
attributes), and that there was value in<br class=3D"">being able to =
specify language per direction (sending and receiving).<br class=3D"">This=
 document therefore defines two new attributes.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">This deletes all interpretation of the =
existing attribute (while retaining mention that interpretation is =
needed) and mentions the value in being able to specify language per =
direction.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></blockquote>)<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">In =
Section 6.2, change "the languages the offerer wishes to" to "...is =
willing to".<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></blockquote>You mentioned "is =
capable to" during the meeting. I think that is better.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">I mentioned it because it was =
your suggested phrase and I feel it is not clear nor correct English nor =
correct technically. What I suggested in the meeting was saying =
"supports" which is what I think you meant by "is capable to", but when =
I made the change to the draft, I realized that it was incorrect. Most =
clients will be capable of supporting virtually any language; obviously =
the client isn't going to try and establish sessions for every language. =
It's going to do what it determines the user wants. I think the original =
wording of "wishes" is best but I am happy to change it.<br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">We need to avoid to =
give the impression that the user in the normal case intends to use more =
than one of the indicated languages.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">No, we do not, because that gets =
into user interface issues which are out of scope. We need to establish =
at the protocol level which languages are established.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">"is willing to" is =
better than "wishes" but I still think that "is capable of" is even more =
free of implication that the desire is to use more than one.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">There are two more occurrences of "wishes" in =
section 6.2. Please look at the change proposal file I just sent to the =
list and make your proposals from it ( I know my proposals are not =
perfect either).<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Earlier ( in April) you =
also proposed to delete the phrase "to indicate the language used when =
sending<br class=3D"">and receiving media" at the end of the first =
paragraph in 6.2. I still support that proposal,<br class=3D"">because =
the full reasoning of the purpose and usage of the attributes follow.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">That change was =
made but missed getting in to -01. It is in -02. I didn't include it in =
the email because it was stylistic and not germane to the action item, =
so I felt it would be confusing to include.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Here is the full paragraph as it is now:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">In an offer, 'humintlang-send' indicates the language(s) the =
offerer<br class=3D"">is willing to use when sending using the media, =
and 'humintlang-recv'<br class=3D"">indicates the language(s) the =
offerer is willing to use when<br class=3D"">receiving using the media. =
In both cases the values constitute a<br class=3D"">list of languages in =
preference order (first is most preferred). In<br class=3D"">cases where =
the user wishes to use a media in one direction only<br class=3D"">(such =
as a speech-impaired user who wishes to send using text and<br =
class=3D"">receive using audio), one of the two MAY be unset. In cases =
where a<br class=3D"">media is not primarily intended for language (for =
example, a video or<br class=3D"">audio stream intended for background =
only) both SHOULD be unset. In<br class=3D"">other cases, both SHOULD =
have the same values in the same order. The<br class=3D"">two SHOULD NOT =
be set to languages which are difficult to match<br class=3D"">together =
(e.g., specifying a desire to send audio in Hungarian and<br =
class=3D"">receive audio in Portuguese will make it difficult to =
successfully<br class=3D"">complete the call).<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote>OK, I can accept "is willing". So, this text is =
close to good.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: =
inline !important;" class=3D"">Happy to hear it.</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">However, there is another small item, I =
remember I bounced at the first times I read this. It is this phrase:<br =
class=3D"">" In cases where the user wishes to use a media in one =
direction only<br class=3D"">(such as a speech-impaired user who wishes =
to send using text and<br class=3D"">receive using audio), one of the =
two MAY be unset."<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I was thinking of "the =
two" as text and speech attributes and wondered why you did not want to =
set both.<br class=3D"">Eventually I realized that you thought about the =
two directions of each media. So, I suggest to clarify like this:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">In cases where the user wishes to use a media =
in one direction only<br class=3D"">(such as a speech-impaired user who =
wishes to send using text and<br class=3D"">receive using audio), one of =
the two MAY be unset for that media.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">I have reworded the =
text to be more clear. &nbsp;Here is the revised sentence:</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: =
inline !important;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;In cases where a</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;media =
is intended for use in one direction only (such as a speech-</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;impaired =
user sending using text and receiving using audio), either</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;humintlang-send or humintlang-recv MAY be =
unset.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">--<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Randall =
Gellens</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">Opinions are personal; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;facts =
are suspect; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I speak for myself only</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">-------------- =
Randomly selected tag: ---------------</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: =
inline !important;" class=3D"">2 + 2 =3D 5 for extremely large values of =
2.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">SLIM mailing =
list</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><a =
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From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gunnar_Hellstr=c3=b6m?= <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>
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Subject: Re: [Slim] IETF96 - negotiating-human-language sections 5 and 6.2
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Randall,


Den 2016-07-20 kl. 11:04, skrev Randall Gellens:
>>
>>  However, there is another small item, I remember I bounced at the 
>> first times I read this. It is this phrase:
>>  " In cases where the user wishes to use a media in one direction only
>>  (such as a speech-impaired user who wishes to send using text and
>>  receive using audio), one of the two MAY be unset."
>>
>>  I was thinking of "the two" as text and speech attributes and 
>> wondered why you did not want to set both.
>>  Eventually I realized that you thought about the two directions of 
>> each media. So, I suggest to clarify like this:
>>
>>  In cases where the user wishes to use a media in one direction only
>>  (such as a speech-impaired user who wishes to send using text and
>>  receive using audio), one of the two MAY be unset for that media.
>
> I have reworded the text to be more clear.  Here is the revised sentence:
>
>    In cases where a
>    media is intended for use in one direction only (such as a speech-
>    impaired user sending using text and receiving using audio), either
>    humintlang-send or humintlang-recv MAY be unset.
>
Sorry, but that misses the point. Why can you not take my proposal?
The point is that the statement is written as implicitly valid per 
media, while the reader ( at least me) may be thinking per use case. 
Therefore, guidance to think per media would be good, in order to not 
cause confusion or wondering what is meant.

So, therefore I suggest:

In cases where a
    media is intended for use in one direction only (such as a speech-
    impaired user sending using text and receiving using audio), either
    humintlang-send or humintlang-recv MAY be unset for each media.

/Gunnar



-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se


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    <p>Randall,<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Den 2016-07-20 kl. 11:04, skrev Randall
      Gellens:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:p06240606d3b4ee30eb52@[10.134.253.167]"
      type="cite">
      <blockquote type="cite" style="color: #000000;">
        <br>
         However, there is another small item, I remember I bounced at
        the first times I read this. It is this phrase:
        <br>
         " In cases where the user wishes to use a media in one
        direction only
        <br>
         (such as a speech-impaired user who wishes to send using text
        and
        <br>
         receive using audio), one of the two MAY be unset."
        <br>
        <br>
         I was thinking of "the two" as text and speech attributes and
        wondered why you did not want to set both.
        <br>
         Eventually I realized that you thought about the two directions
        of each media. So, I suggest to clarify like this:
        <br>
        <br>
         In cases where the user wishes to use a media in one direction
        only
        <br>
         (such as a speech-impaired user who wishes to send using text
        and
        <br>
         receive using audio), one of the two MAY be unset for that
        media.
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      I have reworded the text to be more clear.  Here is the revised
      sentence:
      <br>
      <br>
         In cases where a
      <br>
         media is intended for use in one direction only (such as a
      speech-
      <br>
         impaired user sending using text and receiving using audio),
      either
      <br>
         humintlang-send or humintlang-recv MAY be unset.
      <br>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    Sorry, but that misses the point. Why can you not take my proposal?<br>
    The point is that the statement is written as implicitly valid per
    media, while the reader ( at least me) may be thinking per use case.
    Therefore, guidance to think per media would be good, in order to
    not cause confusion or wondering what is meant.<br>
    <br>
    So, therefore I suggest:<br>
    <br>
    In cases where a
    <br>
       media is intended for use in one direction only (such as a
    speech-
    <br>
       impaired user sending using text and receiving using audio),
    either
    <br>
       humintlang-send or humintlang-recv MAY be unset for each media.<br>
    <br>
    /Gunnar<br>
     <br>
    <br>
     <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>
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Subject: Re: [Slim] IETF96 - negotiating-human-language sections 5 and 6.2
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Den 2016-07-20 kl. 11:10, skrev Brian Rosen:

> I find “unset” to be confusing.
>
> Could we agree on “either of humintlang-send or humintlang-recv MAY be 
> specified.”
I would also prefer that for all occasions of "unset".

/Gunnar
>
> Brian

-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se


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    <p>Den 2016-07-20 kl. 11:10, skrev Brian Rosen:<br>
    </p>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:DF767612-BF74-479B-ACA3-9A4E8C617A3D@brianrosen.net"
      type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
        charset=windows-1252">
      I find “unset” to be confusing.
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">Could we agree on “either of<span class=""
          style="float: none; display: inline !important;"> humintlang-send
          or humintlang-recv MAY be specified.”</span></div>
    </blockquote>
    I would also prefer that for all occasions of "unset".<br>
    <br>
    /Gunnar<br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:DF767612-BF74-479B-ACA3-9A4E8C617A3D@brianrosen.net"
      type="cite">
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">Brian<br class="">
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>
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Subject: Re: [Slim] IETF96 - negotiating-human-language sections 5 and 6.2
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At 11:10 AM +0200 7/20/16, Brian Rosen wrote:

>  I find "unset" to be confusing.


How about "omitted"?

    In cases where a
    media is intended for use in one direction only (such as a speech-
    impaired user sending using text and receiving using audio), either
    humintlang-send or humintlang-recv MAY be omitted.  In cases where a
    media is not primarily intended for language (for example, a video or
    audio stream intended for background only) both SHOULD be omitted.
>
>  Could we agree on "either of humintlang-send or=20
> humintlang-recv MAY be specified."
>
>  Brian
>
>>  On Jul 20, 2016, at 11:04 AM, Randall Gellens=20
>> <<mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>=20
>> wrote:
>>
>>  At 12:30 AM +0200 7/20/16, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m wrote:
>>
>>>  Den 2016-07-19 kl. 23:24, skrev Randall Gellens:
>>>
>>>>  At 10:52 PM +0200 7/19/16, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  Randall,
>>>>>
>>>>>  Den 2016-07-19 kl. 16:35, skrev Randall Gellens:
>>>>>
>>>>>>  To address the two action items in the=20
>>>>>> real-time draft from today's discussion, I=20
>>>>>> propose to make the following two changes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Replace all of Section 5 with:
>>>>>>
>>>>>  I still think it is not our task to=20
>>>>> criticize RFC 4566 when we do not need. I=20
>>>>> proposed to just motivate our decision on=20
>>>>> the fact that the lang attribute does not=20
>>>>> have sufficient detail. We have agreed to=20
>>>>> describe languages per direction, and that=20
>>>>> is not supported by 'lang'
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  The history of that decision is that it was=20
>>>> done after the agreement that the existing=20
>>>> 'lang' attribute couldn't be used. It's=20
>>>> additional, I'm not sure it's sufficient. If=20
>>>> you object so strongly to the simple=20
>>>> statement that the existing semantics are=20
>>>> not clear (which is evidenced by the debate=20
>>>> over what they mean), I can delete all=20
>>>> justification and simply say that the group=20
>>>> decided not to use it. After all, anything=20
>>>> we say as to why can be argued with, as you=20
>>>> are doing here.
>>>>
>>>  A motivation is needed, and the clear one is=20
>>> the direction. Please use that.
>>>
>>
>>  As I said, directionality was considered only=20
>> after it was agreed that the existing=20
>> attribute wasn't suitable.  The draft need=20
>> only reflect group consensus. The level of=20
>> detail and justification is not mandated.=20
>>  Personally, I prefer more background=20
>> information, but I am OK saying very little to=20
>> avoid endless debate over words.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  So, here is my proposed rewording:
>>>>>
>>>>>  RFC 4566 [RFC4566] specifies an attribute 'lang' which appears
>>>>>  similar to what is needed here. We need=20
>>>>> however a more detailed specification than=20
>>>>> the 'lang' attribute provides. We need a=20
>>>>> way to negotiate which language is used in=20
>>>>> each stream and direction in the session.=20
>>>>> This document therefore defines two new=20
>>>>> attributes.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>  (Your proposal was
>>>>>
>>>>>>  RFC 4566 [RFC4566] specifies an attribute 'lang' which appears
>>>>>>  similar to what is needed here, but in considering its use the group
>>>>>>  felt its semantics were ambiguous, noted that there was not much
>>>>>>  evidence of its use (and thus less likelihood of conflict or
>>>>>>  confusion in defining new attributes), and that there was value in
>>>>>>  being able to specify language per direction (sending and receiving)=
=2E
>>>>>>  This document therefore defines two new attributes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  This deletes all interpretation of the=20
>>>>>> existing attribute (while retaining=20
>>>>>> mention that interpretation is needed) and=20
>>>>>> mentions the value in being able to=20
>>>>>> specify language per direction.
>>>>>>
>>>>>  )
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  In Section 6.2, change "the languages the=20
>>>>>> offerer wishes to" to "...is willing to".
>>>>>>
>>>>>  You mentioned "is capable to" during the meeting. I think that is bet=
ter.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  I mentioned it because it was your suggested=20
>>>> phrase and I feel it is not clear nor=20
>>>> correct English nor correct technically.=20
>>>> What I suggested in the meeting was saying=20
>>>> "supports" which is what I think you meant=20
>>>> by "is capable to", but when I made the=20
>>>> change to the draft, I realized that it was=20
>>>> incorrect. Most clients will be capable of=20
>>>> supporting virtually any language; obviously=20
>>>> the client isn't going to try and establish=20
>>>> sessions for every language. It's going to=20
>>>> do what it determines the user wants. I=20
>>>> think the original wording of "wishes" is=20
>>>> best but I am happy to change it.
>>>>
>>>>>  We need to avoid to give the impression=20
>>>>> that the user in the normal case intends to=20
>>>>> use more than one of the indicated=20
>>>>> languages.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  No, we do not, because that gets into user=20
>>>> interface issues which are out of scope. We=20
>>>> need to establish at the protocol level=20
>>>> which languages are established.
>>>>
>>>>>  "is willing to" is better than "wishes" but=20
>>>>> I still think that "is capable of" is even=20
>>>>> more free of implication that the desire is=20
>>>>> to use more than one.
>>>>>
>>>>>  There are two more occurrences of "wishes"=20
>>>>> in section 6.2. Please look at the change=20
>>>>> proposal file I just sent to the list and=20
>>>>> make your proposals from it ( I know my=20
>>>>> proposals are not perfect either).
>>>>>
>>>>>  Earlier ( in April) you also proposed to=20
>>>>> delete the phrase "to indicate the language=20
>>>>> used when sending
>>>>>  and receiving media" at the end of the=20
>>>>> first paragraph in 6.2. I still support=20
>>>>> that proposal,
>>>>>  because the full reasoning of the purpose=20
>>>>> and usage of the attributes follow.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  That change was made but missed getting in=20
>>>> to -01. It is in -02. I didn't include it in=20
>>>> the email because it was stylistic and not=20
>>>> germane to the action item, so I felt it=20
>>>> would be confusing to include.
>>>>
>>>>  Here is the full paragraph as it is now:
>>>>
>>>>  In an offer, 'humintlang-send' indicates the language(s) the offerer
>>>>  is willing to use when sending using the media, and 'humintlang-recv'
>>>>  indicates the language(s) the offerer is willing to use when
>>>>  receiving using the media. In both cases the values constitute a
>>>>  list of languages in preference order (first is most preferred). In
>>>>  cases where the user wishes to use a media in one direction only
>>>>  (such as a speech-impaired user who wishes to send using text and
>>>>  receive using audio), one of the two MAY be unset. In cases where a
>>>>  media is not primarily intended for language (for example, a video or
>>>>  audio stream intended for background only) both SHOULD be unset. In
>>>>  other cases, both SHOULD have the same values in the same order. The
>>>>  two SHOULD NOT be set to languages which are difficult to match
>>>>  together (e.g., specifying a desire to send audio in Hungarian and
>>>>  receive audio in Portuguese will make it difficult to successfully
>>>>  complete the call).
>>>>
>>>  OK, I can accept "is willing". So, this text is close to good.
>>>
>>
>>  Happy to hear it.
>>
>>>
>>>  However, there is another small item, I=20
>>> remember I bounced at the first times I read=20
>>> this. It is this phrase:
>>>  " In cases where the user wishes to use a media in one direction only
>>>  (such as a speech-impaired user who wishes to send using text and
>>>  receive using audio), one of the two MAY be unset."
>>>
>>>  I was thinking of "the two" as text and=20
>>> speech attributes and wondered why you did=20
>>> not want to set both.
>>>  Eventually I realized that you thought about=20
>>> the two directions of each media. So, I=20
>>> suggest to clarify like this:
>>>
>>>  In cases where the user wishes to use a media in one direction only
>>>  (such as a speech-impaired user who wishes to send using text and
>>>  receive using audio), one of the two MAY be unset for that media.
>>>
>>
>>  I have reworded the text to be more clear.  Here is the revised sentence=
:
>>
>>    In cases where a
>>    media is intended for use in one direction only (such as a speech-
>>    impaired user sending using text and receiving using audio), either
>>    humintlang-send or humintlang-recv MAY be unset.
>>
>>
>>
>>  -- 
>>  Randall Gellens
>>  Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>>  -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
>>  2 + 2 =3D 5 for extremely large values of 2.
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  SLIM mailing list
>>  <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>SLIM@ietf.org
>>=20
>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/=
listinfo/slim


-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
There is so much to be said in favor of modern journalism.
By giving us the opinions of the uneducated, it keeps us in touch
with the ignorance of the community.                --Oscar Wilde


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From: Brian Rosen <br@brianrosen.net>
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To: Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>
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Subject: Re: [Slim] IETF96 - negotiating-human-language sections 5 and 6.2
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works for me
> On Jul 20, 2016, at 11:33 AM, Randall Gellens =
<rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote:
>=20
> At 11:10 AM +0200 7/20/16, Brian Rosen wrote:
>=20
>> I find "unset" to be confusing.
>=20
>=20
> How about "omitted"?
>=20
>    In cases where a
>    media is intended for use in one direction only (such as a speech-
>    impaired user sending using text and receiving using audio), either
>    humintlang-send or humintlang-recv MAY be omitted.  In cases where =
a
>    media is not primarily intended for language (for example, a video =
or
>    audio stream intended for background only) both SHOULD be omitted.
>>=20
>> Could we agree on "either of humintlang-send or=20
>> humintlang-recv MAY be specified."
>>=20
>> Brian
>>=20
>>> On Jul 20, 2016, at 11:04 AM, Randall Gellens=20
>>> <<mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>=20
>>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> At 12:30 AM +0200 7/20/16, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> Den 2016-07-19 kl. 23:24, skrev Randall Gellens:
>>>>=20
>>>>> At 10:52 PM +0200 7/19/16, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Randall,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Den 2016-07-19 kl. 16:35, skrev Randall Gellens:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> To address the two action items in the=20
>>>>>>> real-time draft from today's discussion, I=20
>>>>>>> propose to make the following two changes:
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Replace all of Section 5 with:
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I still think it is not our task to=20
>>>>>> criticize RFC 4566 when we do not need. I=20
>>>>>> proposed to just motivate our decision on=20
>>>>>> the fact that the lang attribute does not=20
>>>>>> have sufficient detail. We have agreed to=20
>>>>>> describe languages per direction, and that=20
>>>>>> is not supported by 'lang'
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The history of that decision is that it was=20
>>>>> done after the agreement that the existing=20
>>>>> 'lang' attribute couldn't be used. It's=20
>>>>> additional, I'm not sure it's sufficient. If=20
>>>>> you object so strongly to the simple=20
>>>>> statement that the existing semantics are=20
>>>>> not clear (which is evidenced by the debate=20
>>>>> over what they mean), I can delete all=20
>>>>> justification and simply say that the group=20
>>>>> decided not to use it. After all, anything=20
>>>>> we say as to why can be argued with, as you=20
>>>>> are doing here.
>>>>>=20
>>>> A motivation is needed, and the clear one is=20
>>>> the direction. Please use that.
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> As I said, directionality was considered only=20
>>> after it was agreed that the existing=20
>>> attribute wasn't suitable.  The draft need=20
>>> only reflect group consensus. The level of=20
>>> detail and justification is not mandated.=20
>>> Personally, I prefer more background=20
>>> information, but I am OK saying very little to=20
>>> avoid endless debate over words.
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> So, here is my proposed rewording:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> RFC 4566 [RFC4566] specifies an attribute 'lang' which appears
>>>>>> similar to what is needed here. We need=20
>>>>>> however a more detailed specification than=20
>>>>>> the 'lang' attribute provides. We need a=20
>>>>>> way to negotiate which language is used in=20
>>>>>> each stream and direction in the session.=20
>>>>>> This document therefore defines two new=20
>>>>>> attributes.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> (Your proposal was
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> RFC 4566 [RFC4566] specifies an attribute 'lang' which appears
>>>>>>> similar to what is needed here, but in considering its use the =
group
>>>>>>> felt its semantics were ambiguous, noted that there was not much
>>>>>>> evidence of its use (and thus less likelihood of conflict or
>>>>>>> confusion in defining new attributes), and that there was value =
in
>>>>>>> being able to specify language per direction (sending and =
receiving).
>>>>>>> This document therefore defines two new attributes.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> This deletes all interpretation of the=20
>>>>>>> existing attribute (while retaining=20
>>>>>>> mention that interpretation is needed) and=20
>>>>>>> mentions the value in being able to=20
>>>>>>> specify language per direction.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> )
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> In Section 6.2, change "the languages the=20
>>>>>>> offerer wishes to" to "...is willing to".
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> You mentioned "is capable to" during the meeting. I think that is =
better.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I mentioned it because it was your suggested=20
>>>>> phrase and I feel it is not clear nor=20
>>>>> correct English nor correct technically.=20
>>>>> What I suggested in the meeting was saying=20
>>>>> "supports" which is what I think you meant=20
>>>>> by "is capable to", but when I made the=20
>>>>> change to the draft, I realized that it was=20
>>>>> incorrect. Most clients will be capable of=20
>>>>> supporting virtually any language; obviously=20
>>>>> the client isn't going to try and establish=20
>>>>> sessions for every language. It's going to=20
>>>>> do what it determines the user wants. I=20
>>>>> think the original wording of "wishes" is=20
>>>>> best but I am happy to change it.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> We need to avoid to give the impression=20
>>>>>> that the user in the normal case intends to=20
>>>>>> use more than one of the indicated=20
>>>>>> languages.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> No, we do not, because that gets into user=20
>>>>> interface issues which are out of scope. We=20
>>>>> need to establish at the protocol level=20
>>>>> which languages are established.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> "is willing to" is better than "wishes" but=20
>>>>>> I still think that "is capable of" is even=20
>>>>>> more free of implication that the desire is=20
>>>>>> to use more than one.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> There are two more occurrences of "wishes"=20
>>>>>> in section 6.2. Please look at the change=20
>>>>>> proposal file I just sent to the list and=20
>>>>>> make your proposals from it ( I know my=20
>>>>>> proposals are not perfect either).
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Earlier ( in April) you also proposed to=20
>>>>>> delete the phrase "to indicate the language=20
>>>>>> used when sending
>>>>>> and receiving media" at the end of the=20
>>>>>> first paragraph in 6.2. I still support=20
>>>>>> that proposal,
>>>>>> because the full reasoning of the purpose=20
>>>>>> and usage of the attributes follow.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> That change was made but missed getting in=20
>>>>> to -01. It is in -02. I didn't include it in=20
>>>>> the email because it was stylistic and not=20
>>>>> germane to the action item, so I felt it=20
>>>>> would be confusing to include.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Here is the full paragraph as it is now:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> In an offer, 'humintlang-send' indicates the language(s) the =
offerer
>>>>> is willing to use when sending using the media, and =
'humintlang-recv'
>>>>> indicates the language(s) the offerer is willing to use when
>>>>> receiving using the media. In both cases the values constitute a
>>>>> list of languages in preference order (first is most preferred). =
In
>>>>> cases where the user wishes to use a media in one direction only
>>>>> (such as a speech-impaired user who wishes to send using text and
>>>>> receive using audio), one of the two MAY be unset. In cases where =
a
>>>>> media is not primarily intended for language (for example, a video =
or
>>>>> audio stream intended for background only) both SHOULD be unset. =
In
>>>>> other cases, both SHOULD have the same values in the same order. =
The
>>>>> two SHOULD NOT be set to languages which are difficult to match
>>>>> together (e.g., specifying a desire to send audio in Hungarian and
>>>>> receive audio in Portuguese will make it difficult to successfully
>>>>> complete the call).
>>>>>=20
>>>> OK, I can accept "is willing". So, this text is close to good.
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Happy to hear it.
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> However, there is another small item, I=20
>>>> remember I bounced at the first times I read=20
>>>> this. It is this phrase:
>>>> " In cases where the user wishes to use a media in one direction =
only
>>>> (such as a speech-impaired user who wishes to send using text and
>>>> receive using audio), one of the two MAY be unset."
>>>>=20
>>>> I was thinking of "the two" as text and=20
>>>> speech attributes and wondered why you did=20
>>>> not want to set both.
>>>> Eventually I realized that you thought about=20
>>>> the two directions of each media. So, I=20
>>>> suggest to clarify like this:
>>>>=20
>>>> In cases where the user wishes to use a media in one direction only
>>>> (such as a speech-impaired user who wishes to send using text and
>>>> receive using audio), one of the two MAY be unset for that media.
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> I have reworded the text to be more clear.  Here is the revised =
sentence:
>>>=20
>>>   In cases where a
>>>   media is intended for use in one direction only (such as a speech-
>>>   impaired user sending using text and receiving using audio), =
either
>>>   humintlang-send or humintlang-recv MAY be unset.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> --
>>> Randall Gellens
>>> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself =
only
>>> -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
>>> 2 + 2 =3D 5 for extremely large values of 2.
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> SLIM mailing list
>>> <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>SLIM@ietf.org
>>>=20
>>> =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l=
istinfo/slim
>=20
>=20
> --
> Randall Gellens
> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself =
only
> -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
> There is so much to be said in favor of modern journalism.
> By giving us the opinions of the uneducated, it keeps us in touch
> with the ignorance of the community.                --Oscar Wilde


From nobody Wed Jul 20 02:38:46 2016
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To: Gunnar =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hellstr=F6m?=  <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>, Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>, slim@ietf.org
From: Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>
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Subject: Re: [Slim] IETF96 - negotiating-human-language sections 5 and 6.2
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At 11:22 AM +0200 7/20/16, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m wrote:

>  Randall,
>
>
>  Den 2016-07-20 kl. 11:04, skrev Randall Gellens:
>
>>>
>>>  However, there is another small item, I=20
>>> remember I bounced at the first times I read=20
>>> this. It is this phrase:
>>>  " In cases where the user wishes to use a media in one direction only
>>>  (such as a speech-impaired user who wishes to send using text and
>>>  receive using audio), one of the two MAY be unset."
>>>
>>>  I was thinking of "the two" as text and=20
>>> speech attributes and wondered why you did=20
>>> not want to set both.
>>>  Eventually I realized that you thought about=20
>>> the two directions of each media. So, I=20
>>> suggest to clarify like this:
>>>
>>>  In cases where the user wishes to use a media in one direction only
>>>  (such as a speech-impaired user who wishes to send using text and
>>>  receive using audio), one of the two MAY be unset for that media.
>>>
>>
>>  I have reworded the text to be more clear. Here is the revised sentence:
>>
>>  In cases where a
>>  media is intended for use in one direction only (such as a speech-
>>  impaired user sending using text and receiving using audio), either
>>  humintlang-send or humintlang-recv MAY be unset.
>>
>  Sorry, but that misses the point. Why can you not take my proposal?

I found your proposal to be unclear and=20
unhelpful, since the context is a per-media=20
description, so I do not see where a reader would=20
think per use case.  I accept that you found the=20
original wording unclear, so I reworded it to be=20
more clear.  What is wrong with the new wording?=20
What is it that you find unclear?  If I better=20
understood where you are confused, I can suggest=20
other wording.  I am going to guess that is is=20
the phrase "in cases" that is causing your=20
confusion.  I think I can simply delete this.

So, here is the revised paragraph:

    In an offer, 'humintlang-send' indicates the language(s) the offerer
    is willing to use when sending using the media, and 'humintlang-recv'
    indicates the language(s) the offerer is willing to use when
    receiving using the media.  The values constitute a list of languages
    in preference order (first is most preferred).  When a media is
    intended for use in one direction only (such as a speech-impaired
    user sending using text and receiving using audio), either
    humintlang-send or humintlang-recv MAY be omitted.  When a media is
    not primarily intended for language (for example, a video or audio
    stream intended for background only) both SHOULD be omitted.
    Otherwise, both SHOULD have the same values in the same order.  The
    two SHOULD NOT be set to languages which are difficult to match
    together (e.g., specifying a desire to send audio in Hungarian and
    receive audio in Portuguese will make it difficult to successfully
    complete the call).



>  The point is that the statement is written as=20
> implicitly valid per media, while the reader (=20
> at least me) may be thinking per use case.=20
> Therefore, guidance to think per media would be=20
> good, in order to not cause confusion or=20
> wondering what is meant.
>
>  So, therefore I suggest:
>
>  In cases where a
>  media is intended for use in one direction only (such as a speech-
>  impaired user sending using text and receiving using audio), either
>  humintlang-send or humintlang-recv MAY be unset for each media.
>
>  /Gunnar
>
>
>  --
>  -----------------------------------------
>  Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
>  Omnitor
>  <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  SLIM mailing list
>  SLIM@ietf.org
>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim


-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
Levellers wish to level down as far as themselves; but they cannot
bear levelling up to themselves.                --Dr. Samuel Johnson


From nobody Wed Jul 20 02:50:44 2016
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Subject: [Slim] I-D Action: draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-02.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Selection of Language for Internet Media of the IETF.

        Title           : Negotiating Human Language in Real-Time Communications
        Author          : Randall Gellens
	Filename        : draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-02.txt
	Pages           : 17
	Date            : 2016-07-20

Abstract:
   Users have various human (natural) language needs, abilities, and
   preferences regarding spoken, written, and signed languages.  When
   establishing interactive communication ("calls") there needs to be a
   way to negotiate (communicate and match) the caller's language and
   media needs with the capabilities of the called party.  This is
   especially important with emergency calls, where a call can be
   handled by a call taker capable of communicating with the user, or a
   translator or relay operator can be bridged into the call during
   setup, but this applies to non-emergency calls as well (as an
   example, when calling a company call center).

   This document describes the need and a solution using new SDP stream
   attributes.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-02

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-02


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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Subject: Re: [Slim] IETF96 - negotiating-human-language sections 5 and 6.2
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My reply to Brian a few minutes ago deleted all uses of the word "unset."

At 11:24 AM +0200 7/20/16, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m wrote:

>  Den 2016-07-20 kl. 11:10, skrev Brian Rosen:
>
>>  I find "unset" to be confusing.
>>
>>  Could we agree on "either of humintlang-send=20
>> or humintlang-recv MAY be specified."
>>
>  I would also prefer that for all occasions of "unset".
>
>  /Gunnar
>
>>
>>  Brian
>>
>
>  --
>  -----------------------------------------
>  Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
>  Omnitor
>  <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  SLIM mailing list
>  SLIM@ietf.org
>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim


-- 
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From nobody Wed Jul 20 03:41:29 2016
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I have finished going through the Word document that Gunnar sent, and 
have made several editorial changes as a result.  I believe the 
document is now ready for WGLC.  If Gunnar or anyone else is unhappy 
with any text, it can be handled as WGLC comments that the group will 
decide.

At 1:44 AM -0700 7/20/16, Randall Gellens wrote:

>  Hi Gunnar,
>
>  As I mentioned in the meeting, I am going through the Word document 
> and looking at your suggested changes.  No need to do anything 
> further for now.
>
>  --Randy
>
>  --
>  Randall Gellens
>  Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>  -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
>  A nation is a society united by delusions about its ancestry and
>  united by common hatred of its neighbors.            --Dean Inge
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  SLIM mailing list
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-- 
Randall Gellens
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-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
Did you know...
That no one ever reads these things?


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Version -02 is now available.  It addresses all comments.  If you 
feel a comment was not correctly addressed, or you have another 
comment, please say so.  The group may want to especially look at 
Section 5 ("The existing 'lang' attribute") to be sure the text 
reflect group consensus.

-- 
Randall Gellens
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-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
Round up the usual suspects today.


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Subject: Re: [Slim] IETF96 - negotiating-human-language sections 5 and 6.2
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works for me

/Gunnar


Den 2016-07-20 kl. 11:34, skrev Brian Rosen:
> works for me
>> On Jul 20, 2016, at 11:33 AM, Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote:
>>
>> At 11:10 AM +0200 7/20/16, Brian Rosen wrote:
>>
>>> I find "unset" to be confusing.
>>
>> How about "omitted"?
>>
>>     In cases where a
>>     media is intended for use in one direction only (such as a speech-
>>     impaired user sending using text and receiving using audio), either
>>     humintlang-send or humintlang-recv MAY be omitted.  In cases where a
>>     media is not primarily intended for language (for example, a video or
>>     audio stream intended for background only) both SHOULD be omitted.
>>> Could we agree on "either of humintlang-send or
>>> humintlang-recv MAY be specified."
>>>
>>> Brian
>>>
>>>> On Jul 20, 2016, at 11:04 AM, Randall Gellens
>>>> <<mailto:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> At 12:30 AM +0200 7/20/16, Gunnar Hellström wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Den 2016-07-19 kl. 23:24, skrev Randall Gellens:
>>>>>
>>>>>> At 10:52 PM +0200 7/19/16, Gunnar Hellström wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Randall,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Den 2016-07-19 kl. 16:35, skrev Randall Gellens:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To address the two action items in the
>>>>>>>> real-time draft from today's discussion, I
>>>>>>>> propose to make the following two changes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Replace all of Section 5 with:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I still think it is not our task to
>>>>>>> criticize RFC 4566 when we do not need. I
>>>>>>> proposed to just motivate our decision on
>>>>>>> the fact that the lang attribute does not
>>>>>>> have sufficient detail. We have agreed to
>>>>>>> describe languages per direction, and that
>>>>>>> is not supported by 'lang'
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> The history of that decision is that it was
>>>>>> done after the agreement that the existing
>>>>>> 'lang' attribute couldn't be used. It's
>>>>>> additional, I'm not sure it's sufficient. If
>>>>>> you object so strongly to the simple
>>>>>> statement that the existing semantics are
>>>>>> not clear (which is evidenced by the debate
>>>>>> over what they mean), I can delete all
>>>>>> justification and simply say that the group
>>>>>> decided not to use it. After all, anything
>>>>>> we say as to why can be argued with, as you
>>>>>> are doing here.
>>>>>>
>>>>> A motivation is needed, and the clear one is
>>>>> the direction. Please use that.
>>>>>
>>>> As I said, directionality was considered only
>>>> after it was agreed that the existing
>>>> attribute wasn't suitable.  The draft need
>>>> only reflect group consensus. The level of
>>>> detail and justification is not mandated.
>>>> Personally, I prefer more background
>>>> information, but I am OK saying very little to
>>>> avoid endless debate over words.
>>>>
>>>>>>> So, here is my proposed rewording:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> RFC 4566 [RFC4566] specifies an attribute 'lang' which appears
>>>>>>> similar to what is needed here. We need
>>>>>>> however a more detailed specification than
>>>>>>> the 'lang' attribute provides. We need a
>>>>>>> way to negotiate which language is used in
>>>>>>> each stream and direction in the session.
>>>>>>> This document therefore defines two new
>>>>>>> attributes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (Your proposal was
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> RFC 4566 [RFC4566] specifies an attribute 'lang' which appears
>>>>>>>> similar to what is needed here, but in considering its use the group
>>>>>>>> felt its semantics were ambiguous, noted that there was not much
>>>>>>>> evidence of its use (and thus less likelihood of conflict or
>>>>>>>> confusion in defining new attributes), and that there was value in
>>>>>>>> being able to specify language per direction (sending and receiving).
>>>>>>>> This document therefore defines two new attributes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This deletes all interpretation of the
>>>>>>>> existing attribute (while retaining
>>>>>>>> mention that interpretation is needed) and
>>>>>>>> mentions the value in being able to
>>>>>>>> specify language per direction.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> )
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In Section 6.2, change "the languages the
>>>>>>>> offerer wishes to" to "...is willing to".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You mentioned "is capable to" during the meeting. I think that is better.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I mentioned it because it was your suggested
>>>>>> phrase and I feel it is not clear nor
>>>>>> correct English nor correct technically.
>>>>>> What I suggested in the meeting was saying
>>>>>> "supports" which is what I think you meant
>>>>>> by "is capable to", but when I made the
>>>>>> change to the draft, I realized that it was
>>>>>> incorrect. Most clients will be capable of
>>>>>> supporting virtually any language; obviously
>>>>>> the client isn't going to try and establish
>>>>>> sessions for every language. It's going to
>>>>>> do what it determines the user wants. I
>>>>>> think the original wording of "wishes" is
>>>>>> best but I am happy to change it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We need to avoid to give the impression
>>>>>>> that the user in the normal case intends to
>>>>>>> use more than one of the indicated
>>>>>>> languages.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, we do not, because that gets into user
>>>>>> interface issues which are out of scope. We
>>>>>> need to establish at the protocol level
>>>>>> which languages are established.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "is willing to" is better than "wishes" but
>>>>>>> I still think that "is capable of" is even
>>>>>>> more free of implication that the desire is
>>>>>>> to use more than one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are two more occurrences of "wishes"
>>>>>>> in section 6.2. Please look at the change
>>>>>>> proposal file I just sent to the list and
>>>>>>> make your proposals from it ( I know my
>>>>>>> proposals are not perfect either).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Earlier ( in April) you also proposed to
>>>>>>> delete the phrase "to indicate the language
>>>>>>> used when sending
>>>>>>> and receiving media" at the end of the
>>>>>>> first paragraph in 6.2. I still support
>>>>>>> that proposal,
>>>>>>> because the full reasoning of the purpose
>>>>>>> and usage of the attributes follow.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> That change was made but missed getting in
>>>>>> to -01. It is in -02. I didn't include it in
>>>>>> the email because it was stylistic and not
>>>>>> germane to the action item, so I felt it
>>>>>> would be confusing to include.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here is the full paragraph as it is now:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In an offer, 'humintlang-send' indicates the language(s) the offerer
>>>>>> is willing to use when sending using the media, and 'humintlang-recv'
>>>>>> indicates the language(s) the offerer is willing to use when
>>>>>> receiving using the media. In both cases the values constitute a
>>>>>> list of languages in preference order (first is most preferred). In
>>>>>> cases where the user wishes to use a media in one direction only
>>>>>> (such as a speech-impaired user who wishes to send using text and
>>>>>> receive using audio), one of the two MAY be unset. In cases where a
>>>>>> media is not primarily intended for language (for example, a video or
>>>>>> audio stream intended for background only) both SHOULD be unset. In
>>>>>> other cases, both SHOULD have the same values in the same order. The
>>>>>> two SHOULD NOT be set to languages which are difficult to match
>>>>>> together (e.g., specifying a desire to send audio in Hungarian and
>>>>>> receive audio in Portuguese will make it difficult to successfully
>>>>>> complete the call).
>>>>>>
>>>>> OK, I can accept "is willing". So, this text is close to good.
>>>>>
>>>> Happy to hear it.
>>>>
>>>>> However, there is another small item, I
>>>>> remember I bounced at the first times I read
>>>>> this. It is this phrase:
>>>>> " In cases where the user wishes to use a media in one direction only
>>>>> (such as a speech-impaired user who wishes to send using text and
>>>>> receive using audio), one of the two MAY be unset."
>>>>>
>>>>> I was thinking of "the two" as text and
>>>>> speech attributes and wondered why you did
>>>>> not want to set both.
>>>>> Eventually I realized that you thought about
>>>>> the two directions of each media. So, I
>>>>> suggest to clarify like this:
>>>>>
>>>>> In cases where the user wishes to use a media in one direction only
>>>>> (such as a speech-impaired user who wishes to send using text and
>>>>> receive using audio), one of the two MAY be unset for that media.
>>>>>
>>>> I have reworded the text to be more clear.  Here is the revised sentence:
>>>>
>>>>    In cases where a
>>>>    media is intended for use in one direction only (such as a speech-
>>>>    impaired user sending using text and receiving using audio), either
>>>>    humintlang-send or humintlang-recv MAY be unset.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Randall Gellens
>>>> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>>>> -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
>>>> 2 + 2 = 5 for extremely large values of 2.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> SLIM mailing list
>>>> <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>SLIM@ietf.org
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>>
>> --
>> Randall Gellens
>> Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
>> -------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
>> There is so much to be said in favor of modern journalism.
>> By giving us the opinions of the uneducated, it keeps us in touch
>> with the ignorance of the community.                --Oscar Wilde
> _______________________________________________
> SLIM mailing list
> SLIM@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim

-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
+46 708 204 288


From nobody Wed Jul 20 05:05:19 2016
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References: <6D745F2F-1CF8-4693-B770-0C3E29A2ED88@gsma.com> <p06240602d3b3e7033c89@[10.134.253.167]> <b667287f-606e-984d-cd1a-225f705c0f56@omnitor.se> <p06240607d3b4478edd17@[10.134.253.167]> <a2d14e69-d94f-e098-34f0-dc9d05e93289@omnitor.se> <p06240606d3b4ee30eb52@[10.134.253.167]> <910fc43b-be57-2e67-8514-c77726343b1b@omnitor.se> <p0624060ad3b4f600c029@[10.134.253.167]>
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Subject: Re: [Slim] IETF96 - negotiating-human-language sections 5 and 6.2
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Yes, that works.

Gunnar


Den 2016-07-20 kl. 11:38, skrev Randall Gellens:
> At 11:22 AM +0200 7/20/16, Gunnar Hellström wrote:
>
>>  Randall,
>>
>>
>>  Den 2016-07-20 kl. 11:04, skrev Randall Gellens:
>>
>>>>
>>>>  However, there is another small item, I remember I bounced at the 
>>>> first times I read this. It is this phrase:
>>>>  " In cases where the user wishes to use a media in one direction only
>>>>  (such as a speech-impaired user who wishes to send using text and
>>>>  receive using audio), one of the two MAY be unset."
>>>>
>>>>  I was thinking of "the two" as text and speech attributes and 
>>>> wondered why you did not want to set both.
>>>>  Eventually I realized that you thought about the two directions of 
>>>> each media. So, I suggest to clarify like this:
>>>>
>>>>  In cases where the user wishes to use a media in one direction only
>>>>  (such as a speech-impaired user who wishes to send using text and
>>>>  receive using audio), one of the two MAY be unset for that media.
>>>>
>>>
>>>  I have reworded the text to be more clear. Here is the revised 
>>> sentence:
>>>
>>>  In cases where a
>>>  media is intended for use in one direction only (such as a speech-
>>>  impaired user sending using text and receiving using audio), either
>>>  humintlang-send or humintlang-recv MAY be unset.
>>>
>>  Sorry, but that misses the point. Why can you not take my proposal?
>
> I found your proposal to be unclear and unhelpful, since the context 
> is a per-media description, so I do not see where a reader would think 
> per use case.  I accept that you found the original wording unclear, 
> so I reworded it to be more clear.  What is wrong with the new 
> wording? What is it that you find unclear?  If I better understood 
> where you are confused, I can suggest other wording.  I am going to 
> guess that is is the phrase "in cases" that is causing your 
> confusion.  I think I can simply delete this.
>
> So, here is the revised paragraph:
>
>    In an offer, 'humintlang-send' indicates the language(s) the offerer
>    is willing to use when sending using the media, and 'humintlang-recv'
>    indicates the language(s) the offerer is willing to use when
>    receiving using the media.  The values constitute a list of languages
>    in preference order (first is most preferred).  When a media is
>    intended for use in one direction only (such as a speech-impaired
>    user sending using text and receiving using audio), either
>    humintlang-send or humintlang-recv MAY be omitted.  When a media is
>    not primarily intended for language (for example, a video or audio
>    stream intended for background only) both SHOULD be omitted.
>    Otherwise, both SHOULD have the same values in the same order. The
>    two SHOULD NOT be set to languages which are difficult to match
>    together (e.g., specifying a desire to send audio in Hungarian and
>    receive audio in Portuguese will make it difficult to successfully
>    complete the call).
>
>
>
>>  The point is that the statement is written as implicitly valid per 
>> media, while the reader ( at least me) may be thinking per use case. 
>> Therefore, guidance to think per media would be good, in order to not 
>> cause confusion or wondering what is meant.
>>
>>  So, therefore I suggest:
>>
>>  In cases where a
>>  media is intended for use in one direction only (such as a speech-
>>  impaired user sending using text and receiving using audio), either
>>  humintlang-send or humintlang-recv MAY be unset for each media.
>>
>>  /Gunnar
>>
>>
>>  --
>>  -----------------------------------------
>>  Gunnar Hellström
>>  Omnitor
>>  <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  SLIM mailing list
>>  SLIM@ietf.org
>>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>
>

-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
+46 708 204 288


From nobody Wed Jul 20 05:10:35 2016
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Subject: [Slim] I-D Action: draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-02.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Selection of Language for Internet Media of the IETF.

        Title           : Multiple Language Content Type
        Authors         : Nik Tomkinson
                          Nathaniel Borenstein
	Filename        : draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-02.txt
	Pages           : 15
	Date            : 2016-07-20

Abstract:
   This document defines an addition to the Multipurpose Internet Mail
   Extensions (MIME) standard to make it possible to send one message
   that contains multiple language versions of the same information.
   The translations would be identified by a language tag and selected
   by the email client based on a user's language settings.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-02

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-02


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Wed Jul 20 05:29:48 2016
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From: Nik Tomkinson <rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 13:29:43 +0100
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Subject: [Slim] Non-real-time new I-D version
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Hi all,

as you will have seen, I have submitted a new version of this
draft draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-02 which contains the update to the
security considerations I mentioned in my presentation, the capitalisation
issue Sean mentioned and a restriction on the use of From fields in the
language message parts and the language independent part (and a single word
change suggested by Randall).

Please take a look and let me know if there are any issues that need
addressing.

I did look at the security consideration section of the use case document,
but this is not applicable to this I-D as the user's language preferences
(or accessibility information) are not transmitted anywhere outside the
email client but kept local and safe.

As for trying to get input from large multinational mail providers (eg.
Google, Microsoft etc) I talked to John Levine and got two names of people
in Google that may be interested in helping (Weihaw Chuang and Nicolas
Lidzborski) but didn't get their contact details. Can anyone pass them on
if they have them? And also, does anyone else have good contacts with big
mail providers who would also be able to look at the draft with the aim of
giving feedback and trialling something.

Thanks,

Nik

-- 

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Multiple Language Content Type Internet Draft:

<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-multilangcontent/>
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/
<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-slim-multilangcontent/>

-----------------------------------------------------------------

--001a114cad4c2ffe4f0538105b53
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi all,<div><br></div><div>as you will have seen, I have s=
ubmitted a new version of this draft=C2=A0draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-=
02 which contains the update to the security considerations I mentioned in =
my presentation, the=C2=A0capitalisation issue Sean mentioned and a restric=
tion on the use of From fields in the language message parts and the langua=
ge independent part (and a single word change suggested by Randall).<br cle=
ar=3D"all"><div><br></div><div>Please take a look and let me know if there =
are any issues that need addressing.</div><div><br></div><div>I did look at=
 the security consideration section of the use case document, but this is n=
ot applicable to this I-D as the user&#39;s language preferences (or access=
ibility information) are not transmitted anywhere outside the email client =
but kept local and safe.</div><div><br></div><div>As for trying to get inpu=
t from large multinational mail providers (eg. Google, Microsoft etc) I tal=
ked to John Levine and got two names of people in Google that may be intere=
sted in helping (Weihaw Chuang and Nicolas Lidzborski) but didn&#39;t get t=
heir contact details. Can anyone pass them on if they have them? And also, =
does anyone else have good contacts with big mail providers who would also =
be able to look at the draft with the aim of giving feedback and trialling =
something.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div><br></div><div>Nik</d=
iv><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"g=
mail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;courier new&q=
uot;,monospace">-----------------------------------------------------------=
------<br>Multiple Language Content Type Internet Draft:</span></pre><a hre=
f=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-multilangcontent/" tar=
get=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;courier new&quot;,monospace=
"></span></a><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-sli=
m-multilangcontent/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dra=
ft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/</a><br><pre><span style=3D"font-family:&quot=
;courier new&quot;,monospace">---------------------------------------------=
--------------------</span><br></pre></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div>
</div></div>

--001a114cad4c2ffe4f0538105b53--


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Subject: Re: [Slim] I-D Action: draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-02.txt
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Randall,

Thanks for rapid and thorough action. Most of my comments and edit 
proposals are well covered in -02

I have some rapid feedback.

1. Check the informational references in 12.2 and delet the ones we do 
not use anymore.

2. In 4 and 6 it is said that we define 'a' media attribute and 'an' SDP 
attribute. Consider if we should say 'two' already there.

3. In 4, the lats paragraph ( the paranthesis ) indicates that 
negotiating multiple languages is not feasible. But firstly, the caller 
is described to have the option to offer multiple alternatives, and some 
feasible use cases use multiple languages to express their preferences. 
So, the draft is contradicting this paragraph. Or I miss something it 
wants to say that also other readers could miss. I suggest to delete the 
last paragraph of 4.

4. In 5, "The group" is used but not defined. And the discussion is not 
needed. "not sufficiently detailed" would be sufficient.

5. In 6.2, I suggested to add a sentence: "

Events during the session may influence which language(s) are used,

and the participants are not strictly bound to only use the declared

languages."

I think it is a valid clarification.

6. As 6.4 I suggest to insert the "Most preferred language" section 
discussed in mail today.

7. I suggested a syntax and examples section, but did not provide 
wording for it. I still think that that is needed. ( especially for 
understanding how the * is used, I remember some comments of 
astonishment that it is hooked on at the end of a language tag. )

8. I agree with the comment during the meeting, that additions to the 
security section with material from the use case document should be done.


These were my immediate reactions. More might come.

Thanks,


Gunnar



Den 2016-07-20 kl. 11:56, skrev Randall Gellens:
> Version -02 is now available.  It addresses all comments.  If you feel 
> a comment was not correctly addressed, or you have another comment, 
> please say so.  The group may want to especially look at Section 5 
> ("The existing 'lang' attribute") to be sure the text reflect group 
> consensus.
>

-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
+46 708 204 288


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    <p>Randall,</p>
    <p>Thanks for rapid and thorough action. Most of my comments and
      edit proposals are well covered in -02</p>
    <p>I have some rapid feedback.</p>
    <p>1. Check the informational references in 12.2 and delet the ones
      we do not use anymore.</p>
    <p>2. In 4 and 6 it is said that we define 'a' media attribute and
      'an' SDP attribute. Consider if we should say 'two' already there.
      <br>
    </p>
    <p>3. In 4, the lats paragraph ( the paranthesis ) indicates that
      negotiating multiple languages is not feasible. But firstly, the
      caller is described to have the option to offer multiple
      alternatives, and some feasible use cases use multiple languages
      to express their preferences. So, the draft is contradicting this
      paragraph. Or I miss something it wants to say that also other
      readers could miss. I suggest to delete the last paragraph of 4.</p>
    <p>4. In 5, "The group" is used but not defined. And the discussion
      is not needed. "not sufficiently detailed" would be sufficient. <br>
    </p>
    <p>5. In 6.2, I suggested to add a sentence: "
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Closing"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Signature"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="1" SemiHidden="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Body Text"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Body Text Indent"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="List Continue"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="List Continue 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="List Continue 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="List Continue 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="List Continue 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Message Header"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="11" QFormat="true" Name="Subtitle"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Salutation"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Date"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Body Text First Indent"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Body Text First Indent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Note Heading"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Body Text 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Body Text 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Body Text Indent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Body Text Indent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Block Text"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Hyperlink"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="FollowedHyperlink"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="22" QFormat="true" Name="Strong"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="20" QFormat="true" Name="Emphasis"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Document Map"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Plain Text"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="E-mail Signature"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="HTML Top of Form"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="HTML Bottom of Form"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Normal (Web)"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="HTML Acronym"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="HTML Address"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="HTML Cite"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="HTML Code"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="HTML Definition"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="HTML Keyboard"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="HTML Preformatted"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="HTML Sample"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="HTML Typewriter"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="HTML Variable"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Normal Table"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="annotation subject"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Outline List 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Outline List 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Simple 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Simple 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Classic 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Classic 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Classic 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Colorful 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Colorful 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Columns 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Columns 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Columns 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Grid 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Grid 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Grid 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Grid 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Grid 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table List 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table List 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table List 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table List 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table List 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table List 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table List 7"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table List 8"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table 3D effects 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table 3D effects 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Elegant"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Subtle 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Subtle 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Web 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Table Web 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
   Name="Balloon Text"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="Table Grid"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" UnhideWhenUsed="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" Name="Placeholder Text"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="1" QFormat="true" Name="No Spacing"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" SemiHidden="true" Name="Revision"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="34" QFormat="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="29" QFormat="true" Name="Quote"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="30" QFormat="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 3"/>
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 4"/>
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 5"/>
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Name="Light Shading Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Name="Light List Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Name="Light Grid Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Name="Dark List Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Name="Colorful List Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="19" QFormat="true"
   Name="Subtle Emphasis"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="21" QFormat="true"
   Name="Intense Emphasis"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="31" QFormat="true"
   Name="Subtle Reference"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="32" QFormat="true"
   Name="Intense Reference"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="33" QFormat="true" Name="Book Title"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="37" SemiHidden="true"
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" SemiHidden="true"
   UnhideWhenUsed="true" QFormat="true" Name="TOC Heading"/>
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="42" Name="Plain Table 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="43" Name="Plain Table 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="44" Name="Plain Table 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="45" Name="Plain Table 5"/>
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  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46" Name="Grid Table 1 Light"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51" Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52" Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"
   Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"
   Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"
   Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"
   Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"
   Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"
   Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"
   Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"
   Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"
   Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"
   Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"
   Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"
   Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"
   Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"
   Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"
   Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 5"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"
   Name="Grid Table 1 Light Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="Grid Table 2 Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="Grid Table 3 Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="Grid Table 4 Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="Grid Table 5 Dark Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51"
   Name="Grid Table 6 Colorful Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52"
   Name="Grid Table 7 Colorful Accent 6"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46" Name="List Table 1 Light"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="List Table 2"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="List Table 3"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="List Table 4"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="List Table 5 Dark"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="51" Name="List Table 6 Colorful"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="52" Name="List Table 7 Colorful"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="46"
   Name="List Table 1 Light Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="47" Name="List Table 2 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="48" Name="List Table 3 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="49" Name="List Table 4 Accent 1"/>
  <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="50" Name="List Table 5 Dark Accent 1"/>
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      <style>
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<![endif]-->
      <p class="MsoNormal"
        style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
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          New&quot;;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;
color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Events
          during
          the session may influence which language(s) are used,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
      <p class="MsoNormal"
        style="margin-bottom:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:
        normal;tab-stops:45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt 274.8pt
        320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt 595.4pt 641.2pt
        687.0pt 732.8pt"><span
          style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
          New&quot;;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;
color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><span
            style="mso-spacerun:yes">   </span>and the participants are
          not strictly bound
          to only use the declared<o:p></o:p></span></p>
      <span
        style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
        mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New
        Roman&quot;;color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB;
        mso-fareast-language:EN-GB;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA"><span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes">   </span>languages."</span></p>
    <p><span
        style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
        mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New
        Roman&quot;;color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB;
        mso-fareast-language:EN-GB;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA">I think it
        is a valid clarification.</span></p>
    <p><span
        style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
        mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New
        Roman&quot;;color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB;
        mso-fareast-language:EN-GB;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA">6. As 6.4 I
        suggest to insert the "Most preferred language" section
        discussed in mail today.<br>
      </span></p>
    <p><span
        style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
        mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New
        Roman&quot;;color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB;
        mso-fareast-language:EN-GB;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA">7. I
        suggested a syntax and examples section, but did not provide
        wording for it. I still think that that is needed. ( especially
        for understanding how the * is used, I remember some comments of
        astonishment that it is hooked on at the end of a language tag.
        )</span></p>
    <p><span
        style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
        mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New
        Roman&quot;;color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB;
        mso-fareast-language:EN-GB;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA">8. I agree
        with the comment during the meeting, that additions to the
        security section with material from the use case document should
        be done.</span></p>
    <p><span
        style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
        mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New
        Roman&quot;;color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB;
        mso-fareast-language:EN-GB;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA"><br>
      </span></p>
    <p><span
        style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
        mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New
        Roman&quot;;color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB;
        mso-fareast-language:EN-GB;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA">These were
        my immediate reactions. More might come.</span></p>
    <p><span
        style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
        mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New
        Roman&quot;;color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB;
        mso-fareast-language:EN-GB;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA">Thanks,</span></p>
    <p><span
        style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
        mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New
        Roman&quot;;color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB;
        mso-fareast-language:EN-GB;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA"><br>
      </span></p>
    <p><span
        style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
        mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New
        Roman&quot;;color:black;mso-ansi-language:EN-GB;
        mso-fareast-language:EN-GB;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA">Gunnar<br>
      </span></p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Den 2016-07-20 kl. 11:56, skrev Randall
      Gellens:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:p0624060dd3b4fa4fc2a9@[10.134.253.167]"
      type="cite">Version -02 is now available.  It addresses all
      comments.  If you feel a comment was not correctly addressed, or
      you have another comment, please say so.  The group may want to
      especially look at Section 5 ("The existing 'lang' attribute") to
      be sure the text reflect group consensus.
      <br>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>
+46 708 204 288</pre>
  </body>
</html>

--------------10696CB1C5F2AE8AEC822095--


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Subject: Re: [Slim] awareness to the user in the slim real-time draft
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On Jul 20, 2016, at 10:50 AM, Brian Rosen <br@brianrosen.net> wrote:
>=20
>  User interfaces are free to present anything they want. =20

[BA] To put it more concretely, a web-based application could implement the c=
urrent draft in a SIP Javascript library and that library could provide an i=
ndication of what languages are enabled in each direction on each m-line.=20=


The web application can then use that information in any way it chooses. It c=
ould for example provide controls to enable the user to indicate both locall=
y and remotely their media preferences.=20=


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On 7/20/16 9:34 AM, Bernard Aboba wrote:
> On Jul 20, 2016, at 10:50 AM, Brian Rosen <br@brianrosen.net> wrote:
>>
>>  User interfaces are free to present anything they want.
>
> [BA] To put it more concretely, a web-based application could implement the current draft in a SIP Javascript library and that library could provide an indication of what languages are enabled in each direction on each m-line.
>
> The web application can then use that information in any way it chooses. It could for example provide controls to enable the user to indicate both locally and remotely their media preferences.

Yes.

Conversely, it is challenging to present this information if the UI is a 
black phone, and so the information most likely won't be presented there.

	Thanks,
	Paul


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Subject: Re: [Slim] awareness to the user in the slim real-time draft
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Den 2016-07-20 kl. 10:50, skrev Brian Rosen:
> I’m very sensitive to user interface issues, and have some modest 
> experience building good ones.
I am not talking about user interface issues.  Just that for successful 
operation, we have cases when the user needs to be informed. And that is 
the case already with the draft as it is now. It will not have the 
intended effect if the users are not informed.
>
> I’m also pretty firm that protocol standards must not deal, in any 
> way, with user interfaces, other than, sometimes, providing some 
> information in protocol messages that are not strictly speaking 
> required for the proper implementation of the protocol.
Right. The protocol can be executed on its own, but for many use cases 
we need to indicate to the users what the outcome was, otherwise we will 
leave them in uncertainty and they may act completely against what the 
protocol mechanism decided.
>
> When I read a statement that “both sides should be aware of which 
> language was negotiated”, I interpret that as the implementation (that 
> is, the code), and not the humans.  It means that the messages in the 
> protocol must result in both ends of the protocol knowing the result. 
>  We do use the word “users” occasionally in protocol documents, and 
> that’s the term I expect to see when we mean the humans.
Well. whatever was the intention with the sentence in the introduction, 
the users in many cases need to be informed and aware.
>
> The document does describe a mechanism where both ends of the 
> negotiation know the result, and thus we fulfill the requirement with 
> no further work.  User interfaces are free to present anything they 
> want.  I can easily describe a scenario where they do not present the 
> results of the protocol negotiation: we may have one interpreter who 
> is interpreting English to ASL on video, and another one who is 
> interpreting English to Spanish text.  The ASL interpreter doesn’t 
> doesn’t need to know what is happening in the text change and the 
> Spanish interpreter doesn’t need to know what is happening in the ASL 
> channel.
Yes, it is possible to imagine cases when it is sufficient to indicate 
to the callee that there is an incoming call that they need to act on. 
In the case that the callee has indicated *only one single language in 
one single humintlang-send attribute*, then there is no question on how 
to respond to the call. The callee simply welcomes the caller in the 
only language specified.

But we want other cases to work as well. *As soon as the callee has 
indicated capabilities in two languages, it is essential to provide 
information about the outcome of the protocol negotiation to the callee. 
*The simple case with a callee capable of both spoken and written 
English is such a case. We do not at all need to tell anything about the 
user interface, but we need to mention something about providing 
information to the user.

And in order to have a clear outcome in most cases, instead of 
ambiguity, we need at least *a notation for the most preferred language 
indication*.

How else would you be able to start the call in an appropriate way 
suiting the caller?

So, the proposals below are still valid, but you might want to fine tune 
them to fit your view of how to indicate items to the user.

/Gunnar

>
> Thus I don’t think any further work is needed.
>
> Brian
>
>> On Jul 20, 2016, at 10:23 AM, Gunnar Hellström 
>> <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>> wrote:
>>
>> Brian and all,
>>
>> We had an interesting discussion in the meeting yesterday about 
>> indications to the user.
>>
>> I said that one intention is that the result of the language 
>> negotiation is provided to the users and that that is already stated 
>> in the draft.
>>
>> In the introduction, we have this sentence: "Both sidesshould be 
>> aware of which language was negotiated."
>>
>> I agree with this statement, and that it is often a requirement for a 
>> successful start of the call. It is true that the indications are 
>> also used for routing and selection of participants and user 
>> equipment, but also the users need to be informed. The answering 
>> party need to start the call by using the agreed preferred language 
>> in the agreed preferred modality, otherwise the call will start in 
>> confusion.
>>
>> Imagine a call from a user preferring spoken Greek, ending up at a 
>> call center agent capable of English and Greek. If the agent starts 
>> with a greeting in English instead of Greek, the calling user will 
>> get unsure if Greek can be used, and the call will start in 
>> uncertainty or even be conducted in English that the caller does not 
>> feel confident in.
>>
>> This is not user interface specification. It is as simple as the 
>> statement in the introduction :"Both sidesshould be aware of which 
>> language was negotiated." The discussion went on saying that we do 
>> not specify user interfaces in IETF. And that is true, but many times 
>> we specify items where the user gets aware of the results of the 
>> protocol interaction. Examples can be call hold and release, picture 
>> size and orientation, remote camera movements, attended call transfer 
>> etc. So, we are in good company when we state that both sides are 
>> made aware of the outcome.
>>
>> The requirement to keep the user aware of which language was 
>> negotiated is valid for the current scope of the draft as well as 
>> when we include preference across media and grouping. We can in fact 
>> not yet really fulfill that requirement within the current scope 
>> because we have not defined any way to differentiate preference 
>> between languages in different media. The outcome of the negotiation 
>> can still be undefined. We can with the current wording for example 
>> say that the caller prefers spoken English or written English, but 
>> not if there is any preference between these two providing awareness 
>> to the callee about how to start the call.
>>
>> So, two conclusions:
>>
>> *1. We need to repeat the statement about bringing awareness at a 
>> more protruding position in the draft**, and that is not a user 
>> interface specification.*
>>
>> I suggest to add a sentence last in 4:
>>
>> "Information on the accepted language is provided to the participants 
>> in the call."
>>
>> and a sentence last in 6.2:
>>
>> "The caller and callee should be provided with information on the 
>> outcome of the negotiation. This information is intended to enable 
>> them to start the call in a preferred language."
>>
>> *2.**We cannot**avoid to**specify**preference between 
>> modalities.**L**eav**ing it out would leave**the negotiation 
>> with**undefined results in many cases and uncertainty about how to 
>> start the call.*
>>
>> The caller may prefer to use spoken English but can accept to use 
>> written English, and want to express that so that no calls are 
>> missed. A callee with the same preferences get no clue to how to 
>> start the call from a negotiation resulting in that both spoken and 
>> written English are accepted without preference between them. A 
>> simple indication of the most preferred modality would solve this 
>> uncertainty in most cases.
>>
>> I suggest to add an indication of most preferred language as a new 
>> section 6.4.
>>
>> 6.4 Most preferred language
>>
>> A mechanism is introduced that provides information on the most 
>> preferred language among all language indications in the session 
>> description. This is done in order to provide for a definite outcome 
>> of the negotiation of language in most cases, and thereby an 
>> opportunity for the call to start in a fruitful way.
>>
>> The notation for the most preferred language is a plus ('+') 
>> character added after the language tag in the value of the 
>> corresponding language attribute. The notation MAY be used 
>> independently on both communication directions. The order between 
>> this indication and the indication for advisory versus required is 
>> not relevant.
>>
>>
>> *Background*
>>
>> This discussion is in line with the requirement in 3GPP TS 22.228, 
>> section 7.5.2. We have no clear obligations towards 3GPP, but It 
>> would be good if these requirements can be fulfilled without further 
>> standardisation.
>>
>> This is what is said in the 3GPP specification:
>>
>>
>>       7.5.2Negotiation at IM session invocation
>>
>> It shall be possible for the capability negotiation to take place at 
>> the time of the IP multimedia session invocation. Refer to clause 7.3 
>> for further details on capability negotiation on IP multimedia 
>> session invocation.
>>
>> A UE should support negotiation of the user's desired language(s) (as 
>> defined inIANA [29])and modalities for spoken, signed and written 
>> languages.
>>
>> The system should be able to negotiate the user's desired language(s) 
>> and modalities, per media stream*and/or session, in order of preference*.
>>
>> A service provider shall be able to pass language and 
>> modalityinformation between the endpoints. With respect to the 
>> language and modalityinformation, there are no other service provider 
>> actions required.
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Gunnar
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> -----------------------------------------
>> Gunnar Hellström
>> Omnitor
>> gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> SLIM mailing list
> SLIM@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim

-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
+46 708 204 288


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    Den 2016-07-20 kl. 10:50, skrev Brian Rosen:<br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:3A3B5229-1CB5-431F-BB27-EA73606D2F88@brianrosen.net"
      type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
        charset=windows-1252">
      I’m very sensitive to user interface issues, and have some modest
      experience building good ones.</blockquote>
    I am not talking about user interface issues.  Just that for
    successful operation, we have cases when the user needs to be
    informed. And that is the case already with the draft as it is now.
    It will not have the intended effect if the users are not informed.<br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:3A3B5229-1CB5-431F-BB27-EA73606D2F88@brianrosen.net"
      type="cite">
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">I’m also pretty firm that protocol standards must
        not deal, in any way, with user interfaces, other than,
        sometimes, providing some information in protocol messages that
        are not strictly speaking required for the proper implementation
        of the protocol.<br>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    Right. The protocol can be executed on its own, but for many use
    cases we need to indicate to the users what the outcome was,
    otherwise we will leave them in uncertainty and they may act
    completely against what the protocol mechanism decided. <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:3A3B5229-1CB5-431F-BB27-EA73606D2F88@brianrosen.net"
      type="cite">
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">When I read a statement that “both sides should be
        aware of which language was negotiated”, I interpret that as the
        implementation (that is, the code), and not the humans.  It
        means that the messages in the protocol must result in both ends
        of the protocol knowing the result.  We do use the word “users”
        occasionally in protocol documents, and that’s the term I expect
        to see when we mean the humans. <br>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    Well. whatever was the intention with the sentence in the
    introduction, the users in many cases need to be informed and aware.<br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:3A3B5229-1CB5-431F-BB27-EA73606D2F88@brianrosen.net"
      type="cite">
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">The document does describe a mechanism where both
        ends of the negotiation know the result, and thus we fulfill the
        requirement with no further work.  User interfaces are free to
        present anything they want.  I can easily describe a scenario
        where they do not present the results of the protocol
        negotiation: we may have one interpreter who is interpreting
        English to ASL on video, and another one who is interpreting
        English to Spanish text.  The ASL interpreter doesn’t doesn’t
        need to know what is happening in the text change and the
        Spanish interpreter doesn’t need to know what is happening in
        the ASL channel.</div>
    </blockquote>
    Yes, it is possible to imagine cases when it is sufficient to
    indicate to the callee that there is an incoming call that they need
    to act on. In the case that the callee has indicated <font
      color="#cc0000"><b>only one single language in one single
        humintlang-send attribute</b></font>, then there is no question
    on how to respond to the call. The callee simply welcomes the caller
    in the only language specified. <br>
    <br>
    But we want other cases to work as well. <font color="#cc0000"><b>As
        soon as the callee has indicated capabilities in two languages,
        it is essential to provide information about the outcome of the
        protocol negotiation to the callee. </b></font>The simple case
    with a callee capable of both spoken and written English is such a
    case. We do not at all need to tell anything about the user
    interface, but we need to mention something about providing
    information to the user.  <br>
    <br>
    And in order to have a clear outcome in most cases, instead of
    ambiguity, we need at least <b><font color="#cc0000">a notation for
        the most preferred language indication</font></b>.<br>
    <br>
    How else would you be able to start the call in an appropriate way
    suiting the caller?<br>
    <br>
    So, the proposals below are still valid, but you might want to fine
    tune them to fit your view of how to indicate items to the user.<br>
    <br>
    /Gunnar<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:3A3B5229-1CB5-431F-BB27-EA73606D2F88@brianrosen.net"
      type="cite">
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">Thus I don’t think any further work is needed.</div>
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">Brian</div>
      <div class=""><br class="">
        <div>
          <blockquote type="cite" class="">
            <div class="">On Jul 20, 2016, at 10:23 AM, Gunnar Hellström
              &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se" class="">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>&gt;
              wrote:</div>
            <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
            <div class="">
              <p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">Brian
                and all,</p>
              <p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">We had
                an interesting discussion in the meeting yesterday about
                indications to the user.</p>
              <p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">I said
                that one intention is that the result of the language
                negotiation is provided to the users and that that is
                already stated in the draft.<br class="">
              </p>
              <p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">In the
                introduction, we have this sentence: "<span
                  style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                  15.693333625793457px;" class="" lang="EN-US">Both
                  sides<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span
                    class=""></span>should be aware of which language
                  was negotiated.<span class="">"</span></span></p>
              <p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span
                  style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                  15.693333625793457px;" class="" lang="EN-US"><span
                    class=""><font class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif">I agree with this statement, and that
                      it is often a requirement for a successful start
                      of the call. It is true that the indications are
                      also used for routing and selection of
                      participants and user equipment, but also the
                      users need to be informed. The answering party
                      need to start the call by using the agreed
                      preferred language in the agreed preferred
                      modality, otherwise the call will start in
                      confusion.</font></span></span></p>
              <p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span
                  style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                  15.693333625793457px;" class="" lang="EN-US"><span
                    class=""><font class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif">Imagine a call from a user preferring
                      spoken Greek, ending up at a call center agent
                      capable of English and Greek. If the agent starts
                      with a greeting in English instead of Greek, the
                      calling user will get unsure if Greek can be used,
                      and the call will start in uncertainty or even be
                      conducted in English that the caller does not feel
                      confident in.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br
                        class="">
                    </font></span></span></p>
              <p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span
                  style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                  15.693333625793457px;" class="" lang="EN-US"><span
                    class=""><font class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif">This is not user interface
                      specification. It is as simple as the statement in
                      the introduction :<span
                        class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></font></span></span><span
                  style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                  15.693333625793457px;" class="" lang="EN-US"><span
                    class=""><font class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif">"<span style="font-size: 11pt;
                        line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" class=""
                        lang="EN-US">Both sides<span
                          class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span
                          class=""></span>should be aware of which
                        language was negotiated.<span class="">" <span
                            class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><font
                            class="" face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">The
                            discussion went on saying that we do not
                            specify user interfaces in IETF. And that is
                            true, but many times we specify items where
                            the user gets aware of the results of the
                            protocol interaction. Examples can be call
                            hold and release, picture size and
                            orientation, remote camera movements,
                            attended call transfer etc. So, we are in
                            good company when we state that both sides
                            are made aware of the outcome.<br class="">
                          </font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
              <p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span
                  style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                  15.693333625793457px;" class="" lang="EN-US"><span
                    class=""><font class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                        line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" class=""
                        lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                            face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">The
                            requirement to keep the user aware of which
                            language was negotiated is valid for the
                            current scope of the draft as well as when
                            we include preference across media and
                            grouping. We can in fact not yet really
                            fulfill that requirement within the current
                            scope because we have not defined any way to
                            differentiate preference between languages
                            in different media. The outcome of the
                            negotiation can still be undefined. We can
                            with the current wording for example say
                            that the caller prefers spoken English or
                            written English, but not if there is any
                            preference between these two providing
                            awareness to the callee about how to start
                            the call.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br
                              class="">
                          </font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
              <p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span
                  style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                  15.693333625793457px;" class="" lang="EN-US"><span
                    class=""><font class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                        line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" class=""
                        lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                            face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">So, two
                            conclusions:</font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
              <p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span
                  style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                  15.693333625793457px;" class="" lang="EN-US"><span
                    class=""><font class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                        line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" class=""
                        lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                            face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><b
                              class="">1. We need to repeat the
                              statement about bringing awareness at a
                              more protruding position in the draft</b><b
                              class="">, and that is not a user
                              interface specification.</b><br class="">
                            <br class="">
                            I suggest to add a sentence last in 4:<br
                              class="">
                          </font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
              <p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span
                  style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                  15.693333625793457px;" class="" lang="EN-US"><span
                    class=""><font class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                        line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" class=""
                        lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                            face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">"Information
                            on the accepted language is provided to the
                            participants in the call."<br class="">
                          </font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
              <p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span
                  style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                  15.693333625793457px;" class="" lang="EN-US"><span
                    class=""><font class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                        line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" class=""
                        lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                            face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">and a
                            sentence last in 6.2:<span
                              class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br
                              class="">
                          </font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
              <p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span
                  style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                  15.693333625793457px;" class="" lang="EN-US"><span
                    class=""><font class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                        line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" class=""
                        lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                            face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">"The
                            caller and callee should be provided with
                            information on the outcome of the
                            negotiation. This information is intended to
                            enable them to start the call in a preferred
                            language."<br class="">
                          </font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
              <p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span
                  style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                  15.693333625793457px;" class="" lang="EN-US"><span
                    class=""><font class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                        line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" class=""
                        lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                            face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><b
                              class="">2.<span
                                class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b><b
                              class="">We cannot</b><b class=""><span
                                class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>avoid
                              to<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b><b
                              class="">specify</b><b class=""><span
                                class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>preference
                              between modalities.</b><b class=""><span
                                class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>L</b><b
                              class="">eav</b><b class="">ing it out
                              would leave</b><b class=""><span
                                class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>the
                              negotiation with</b><b class="">undefined
                              results in many cases and uncertainty
                              about how to start the call.<span
                                class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b><br
                              class="">
                          </font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
              <p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span
                  style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                  15.693333625793457px;" class="" lang="EN-US"><span
                    class=""><font class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                        line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" class=""
                        lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                            face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">The
                            caller may prefer to use spoken English but
                            can accept to use written English, and want
                            to express that so that no calls are missed.
                            A callee with the same preferences get no
                            clue to how to start the call from a
                            negotiation resulting in that both spoken
                            and written English are accepted without
                            preference between them. A simple indication
                            of the most preferred modality would solve
                            this uncertainty in most cases.<br class="">
                          </font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
              <p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span
                  style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                  15.693333625793457px;" class="" lang="EN-US"><span
                    class=""><font class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                        line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" class=""
                        lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                            face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">I
                            suggest to add an indication of most
                            preferred language as a new section 6.4.</font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
              <p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span
                  style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                  15.693333625793457px;" class="" lang="EN-US"><span
                    class=""><font class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                        line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" class=""
                        lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                            face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">6.4 Most
                            preferred language</font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
              <p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span
                  style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                  15.693333625793457px;" class="" lang="EN-US"><span
                    class=""><font class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                        line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" class=""
                        lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                            face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">A
                            mechanism is introduced that provides
                            information on the most preferred language
                            among all language indications in the
                            session description. This is do</font></span></span></font></span></span><span
                  style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                  15.693333625793457px;" class="" lang="EN-US"><span
                    class=""><font class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                        line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" class=""
                        lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                            face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span
                              style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                              15.693333625793457px;" class=""
                              lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                                  face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                    style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                                    15.693333625793457px;" class=""
                                    lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                        class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                        sans-serif">ne in order to
                                        provide for a definite outcome
                                        of the negotiation of language
                                        in most cases, and thereby an
                                        opportunity for the call to
                                        start in a fruitful way.<span
                                          class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br
                                          class="">
                                      </font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
              <p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span
                  style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                  15.693333625793457px;" class="" lang="EN-US"><span
                    class=""><font class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                        line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" class=""
                        lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                            face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span
                              style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                              15.693333625793457px;" class=""
                              lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                                  face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                    style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                                    15.693333625793457px;" class=""
                                    lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                        class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                        sans-serif">The notation for the
                                        most preferred language is a
                                        plus ('+') character added after
                                        the language tag in the value of
                                        the corresponding language
                                        attribute. The notation MAY be
                                        used independently on both
                                        communication directions. The
                                        order between this indication
                                        and the indication for advisory
                                        versus required is not relevant.</font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
              <p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span
                  style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                  15.693333625793457px;" class="" lang="EN-US"><span
                    class=""><font class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                        line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" class=""
                        lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                            face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span
                              style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                              15.693333625793457px;" class=""
                              lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                                  face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                    style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                                    15.693333625793457px;" class=""
                                    lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                        class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                        sans-serif"><br class="">
                                      </font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
              <p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><b
                  class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                    15.693333625793457px;" class="" lang="EN-US"><span
                      class=""><font class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                        sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                          line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" class=""
                          lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                              face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                                15.693333625793457px;" class=""
                                lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                    class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                    sans-serif"><span style="font-size:
                                      11pt; line-height:
                                      15.693333625793457px;" class=""
                                      lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                          class="" face="Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif">Background</font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></b></p>
              <p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span
                  style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                  15.693333625793457px;" class="" lang="EN-US"><span
                    class=""><font class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                        line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" class=""
                        lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                            face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span
                              style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                              15.693333625793457px;" class=""
                              lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                                  face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                    style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                                    15.693333625793457px;" class=""
                                    lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                        class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                        sans-serif">This discussion is
                                        in line with the requirement in
                                        3GPP TS 22.228, section 7.5.2. 
                                        We have no clear obligations
                                        towards 3GPP, but It would be
                                        good if these requirements can
                                        be fulfilled without further
                                        standardisation.</font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
              <p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">This is
                what is said in the 3GPP specification:<o:smarttagtype
                  namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
                  name="PersonName" class=""></o:smarttagtype><o:smarttagtype
namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
                  name="PersonName" class=""></o:smarttagtype></p>
              <h3 style="margin: 6pt 0cm 9pt 2cm; text-indent: -2cm;
                page-break-after: avoid; font-size: 14pt; font-family:
                Arial, sans-serif; font-weight: normal; font-style:
                normal; font-variant-caps: normal; letter-spacing:
                normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><a
                  moz-do-not-send="true" name="_Toc406715059" class="">7.5.2<span
                    class="">      <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Negotiation
                  at IM session invocation</a><o:p class=""></o:p></h3>
              <o:smarttagtype
                namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
                name="PersonName" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
                normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
                orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 9pt;
                  font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',
                  serif;">It shall be possible for the capability
                  negotiation to take place at the time of the IP
                  multimedia session invocation. Refer to clause 7.3 for
                  further details on capability negotiation on IP
                  multimedia session invocation.<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 9pt;
                  font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',
                  serif;">A UE should support negotiation of the user's
                  desired language(s) (as defined in<span
                    class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span class=""
                    lang="EN-US">IANA [29])<span
                      class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>and
                  modalities for spoken, signed and written languages.<o:p
                    class=""></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 9pt;
                  font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',
                  serif;">The system should be able to negotiate the
                  user's desired language(s) and modalities, per media
                  stream<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><font
                    class="" color="#cc0000"><b class="">and/or session,
                      in order of preference</b></font>.<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 9pt;
                  font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',
                  serif;">A service provider shall be able to pass
                  language and modality<span
                    class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><st1:personname
                    w:st="on" class="">info</st1:personname>rmation
                  between the endpoints. With respect to the language
                  and modality<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><st1:personname
                    w:st="on" class="">info</st1:personname>rmation,
                  there are no other service provider actions required.<o:p
                    class=""></o:p></p>
              </o:smarttagtype>
              <div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br
                  class="webkit-block-placeholder">
              </div>
              <p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span
                  style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                  15.693333625793457px;" class="" lang="EN-US"><span
                    class=""><font class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                        line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" class=""
                        lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                            face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span
                              style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                              15.693333625793457px;" class=""
                              lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                                  face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                    style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                                    15.693333625793457px;" class=""
                                    lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                        class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                        sans-serif">--------------------------------------------------</font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
              <p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span
                  style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                  15.693333625793457px;" class="" lang="EN-US"><span
                    class=""><font class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                        line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" class=""
                        lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                            face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span
                              style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                              15.693333625793457px;" class=""
                              lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                                  face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                    style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                                    15.693333625793457px;" class=""
                                    lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                        class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                        sans-serif">Regards</font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
              <p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span
                  style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                  15.693333625793457px;" class="" lang="EN-US"><span
                    class=""><font class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                        line-height: 15.693333625793457px;" class=""
                        lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                            face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span
                              style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                              15.693333625793457px;" class=""
                              lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                                  face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                    style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                                    15.693333625793457px;" class=""
                                    lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                        class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                        sans-serif">Gunnar<br class="">
                                      </font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
              <div style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span
                  style="font-size: 11pt; line-height:
                  15.693333625793457px;" class="" lang="EN-US"><span
                    class=""></span></span><br
                  class="webkit-block-placeholder">
              </div>
              <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72" style="font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>
</pre>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br class="">
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
SLIM mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:SLIM@ietf.org">SLIM@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>
+46 708 204 288</pre>
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I am trying to find folks to prototype and interop test -multilanguage.  =
I had some possible users look at the draft, and one of them observed =
that they would like to modify the display name in the =46rom based on =
language, but the text expressly forbids =46rom from being in the =
labeled part.

Do we have any appetite to allow this?

Brian=


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We are not communicating :)

Since the protocol mechanism described informs both ends of the result =
of the negotiation, no further text is needed to fulfill the =
requirement.
You want to go beyond what the requirement states. =20

I think the statement =93As soon as the callee has indicated =
capabilities in two languages, it is essential to provide information =
about the outcome of the protocol negotiation to the callee=94 is not =
always correct, and is a user interface issue, not a protocol issue.  =
The protocol exchange provides all the results to both ends, and any =
implementation is free to show any or all of that information, in any =
form it wants, to the human.  It is not appropriate for us to say what =
it should do; that is very implementation dependent. =20

I specifically object to =93a notation for the most preferred language=94,=
 which, strictly speaking, we have (order, per media).  You want that =
per session, and I object to doing that.  I strongly object to twisting =
=93both sides should be aware=85=94 into a requirement to transport a =
preference in language per session.

Brian


> On Jul 20, 2016, at 4:40 PM, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m =
<gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se> wrote:
>=20
> Den 2016-07-20 kl. 10:50, skrev Brian Rosen:
>> I=92m very sensitive to user interface issues, and have some modest =
experience building good ones.
> I am not talking about user interface issues.  Just that for =
successful operation, we have cases when the user needs to be informed. =
And that is the case already with the draft as it is now. It will not =
have the intended effect if the users are not informed.
>>=20
>> I=92m also pretty firm that protocol standards must not deal, in any =
way, with user interfaces, other than, sometimes, providing some =
information in protocol messages that are not strictly speaking required =
for the proper implementation of the protocol.
> Right. The protocol can be executed on its own, but for many use cases =
we need to indicate to the users what the outcome was, otherwise we will =
leave them in uncertainty and they may act completely against what the =
protocol mechanism decided.=20
>>=20
>> When I read a statement that =93both sides should be aware of which =
language was negotiated=94, I interpret that as the implementation (that =
is, the code), and not the humans.  It means that the messages in the =
protocol must result in both ends of the protocol knowing the result.  =
We do use the word =93users=94 occasionally in protocol documents, and =
that=92s the term I expect to see when we mean the humans.=20
> Well. whatever was the intention with the sentence in the =
introduction, the users in many cases need to be informed and aware.
>>=20
>> The document does describe a mechanism where both ends of the =
negotiation know the result, and thus we fulfill the requirement with no =
further work.  User interfaces are free to present anything they want.  =
I can easily describe a scenario where they do not present the results =
of the protocol negotiation: we may have one interpreter who is =
interpreting English to ASL on video, and another one who is =
interpreting English to Spanish text.  The ASL interpreter doesn=92t =
doesn=92t need to know what is happening in the text change and the =
Spanish interpreter doesn=92t need to know what is happening in the ASL =
channel.
> Yes, it is possible to imagine cases when it is sufficient to indicate =
to the callee that there is an incoming call that they need to act on. =
In the case that the callee has indicated only one single language in =
one single humintlang-send attribute, then there is no question on how =
to respond to the call. The callee simply welcomes the caller in the =
only language specified.=20
>=20
> But we want other cases to work as well. As soon as the callee has =
indicated capabilities in two languages, it is essential to provide =
information about the outcome of the protocol negotiation to the callee. =
The simple case with a callee capable of both spoken and written English =
is such a case. We do not at all need to tell anything about the user =
interface, but we need to mention something about providing information =
to the user. =20
>=20
> And in order to have a clear outcome in most cases, instead of =
ambiguity, we need at least a notation for the most preferred language =
indication.
>=20
> How else would you be able to start the call in an appropriate way =
suiting the caller?
>=20
> So, the proposals below are still valid, but you might want to fine =
tune them to fit your view of how to indicate items to the user.
>=20
> /Gunnar
>=20
>>=20
>> Thus I don=92t think any further work is needed.
>>=20
>> Brian
>>=20
>>> On Jul 20, 2016, at 10:23 AM, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m =
<gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>> =
wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Brian and all,
>>>=20
>>> We had an interesting discussion in the meeting yesterday about =
indications to the user.
>>>=20
>>> I said that one intention is that the result of the language =
negotiation is provided to the users and that that is already stated in =
the draft.
>>>=20
>>> In the introduction, we have this sentence: "Both sides should be =
aware of which language was negotiated."
>>>=20
>>> I agree with this statement, and that it is often a requirement for =
a successful start of the call. It is true that the indications are also =
used for routing and selection of participants and user equipment, but =
also the users need to be informed. The answering party need to start =
the call by using the agreed preferred language in the agreed preferred =
modality, otherwise the call will start in confusion.
>>>=20
>>> Imagine a call from a user preferring spoken Greek, ending up at a =
call center agent capable of English and Greek. If the agent starts with =
a greeting in English instead of Greek, the calling user will get unsure =
if Greek can be used, and the call will start in uncertainty or even be =
conducted in English that the caller does not feel confident in.=20
>>>=20
>>> This is not user interface specification. It is as simple as the =
statement in the introduction : "Both sides should be aware of which =
language was negotiated."  The discussion went on saying that we do not =
specify user interfaces in IETF. And that is true, but many times we =
specify items where the user gets aware of the results of the protocol =
interaction. Examples can be call hold and release, picture size and =
orientation, remote camera movements, attended call transfer etc. So, we =
are in good company when we state that both sides are made aware of the =
outcome.
>>>=20
>>> The requirement to keep the user aware of which language was =
negotiated is valid for the current scope of the draft as well as when =
we include preference across media and grouping. We can in fact not yet =
really fulfill that requirement within the current scope because we have =
not defined any way to differentiate preference between languages in =
different media. The outcome of the negotiation can still be undefined. =
We can with the current wording for example say that the caller prefers =
spoken English or written English, but not if there is any preference =
between these two providing awareness to the callee about how to start =
the call.=20
>>>=20
>>> So, two conclusions:
>>>=20
>>> 1. We need to repeat the statement about bringing awareness at a =
more protruding position in the draft, and that is not a user interface =
specification.
>>>=20
>>> I suggest to add a sentence last in 4:
>>>=20
>>> "Information on the accepted language is provided to the =
participants in the call."
>>>=20
>>> and a sentence last in 6.2:=20
>>>=20
>>> "The caller and callee should be provided with information on the =
outcome of the negotiation. This information is intended to enable them =
to start the call in a preferred language."
>>>=20
>>> 2. We cannot avoid to specify preference between modalities. Leaving =
it out would leave the negotiation withundefined results in many cases =
and uncertainty about how to start the call.=20
>>>=20
>>> The caller may prefer to use spoken English but can accept to use =
written English, and want to express that so that no calls are missed. A =
callee with the same preferences get no clue to how to start the call =
from a negotiation resulting in that both spoken and written English are =
accepted without preference between them. A simple indication of the =
most preferred modality would solve this uncertainty in most cases.
>>>=20
>>> I suggest to add an indication of most preferred language as a new =
section 6.4.
>>>=20
>>> 6.4 Most preferred language
>>>=20
>>> A mechanism is introduced that provides information on the most =
preferred language among all language indications in the session =
description. This is done in order to provide for a definite outcome of =
the negotiation of language in most cases, and thereby an opportunity =
for the call to start in a fruitful way.=20
>>>=20
>>> The notation for the most preferred language is a plus ('+') =
character added after the language tag in the value of the corresponding =
language attribute. The notation MAY be used independently on both =
communication directions. The order between this indication and the =
indication for advisory versus required is not relevant.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Background
>>>=20
>>> This discussion is in line with the requirement in 3GPP TS 22.228, =
section 7.5.2.  We have no clear obligations towards 3GPP, but It would =
be good if these requirements can be fulfilled without further =
standardisation.
>>>=20
>>> This is what is said in the 3GPP specification:
>>>=20
>>> 7.5.2=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Negotiation at IM session invocation <>
>>> It shall be possible for the capability negotiation to take place at =
the time of the IP multimedia session invocation. Refer to clause 7.3 =
for further details on capability negotiation on IP multimedia session =
invocation.
>>>=20
>>> A UE should support negotiation of the user's desired language(s) =
(as defined in IANA [29]) and modalities for spoken, signed and written =
languages.
>>>=20
>>> The system should be able to negotiate the user's desired =
language(s) and modalities, per media stream and/or session, in order of =
preference.
>>>=20
>>> A service provider shall be able to pass language and modality =
information between the endpoints. With respect to the language and =
modality information, there are no other service provider actions =
required.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>=20
>>> Regards
>>>=20
>>> Gunnar
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> --=20
>>> -----------------------------------------
>>> Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
>>> Omnitor
>>> gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> SLIM mailing list
>> SLIM@ietf.org <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>
>=20
> --=20
> -----------------------------------------
> Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
> Omnitor
> gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>
> +46 708 204 288
> _______________________________________________
> SLIM mailing list
> SLIM@ietf.org <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>


--Apple-Mail=_18E6DA98-ED70-4A9D-B554-E6D5AC71C066
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=windows-1252

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">We are not communicating :)<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Since the protocol mechanism described =
informs both ends of the result of the negotiation, no further text is =
needed to fulfill the requirement.</div><div class=3D"">You want to go =
beyond what the requirement states. &nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think the statement =93<b class=3D"" =
style=3D"background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); color: rgb(204, 0, =
0);">As soon as the callee has indicated capabilities in two languages, =
it is essential to provide information about the outcome of the protocol =
negotiation to the callee</b>=94 is not always correct, and is a user =
interface issue, not a protocol issue. &nbsp;The protocol exchange =
provides all the results to both ends, and any implementation is free to =
show any or all of that information, in any form it wants, to the human. =
&nbsp;It is not appropriate for us to say what it should do; that is =
very implementation dependent. &nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I specifically object to =93a notation =
for the most preferred language=94, which, strictly speaking, we have =
(order, per media). &nbsp;You want that per session, and I object to =
doing that. &nbsp;I strongly object to twisting =93both sides should be =
aware=85=94 into a requirement to transport a preference in language per =
session.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Brian</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jul 20, 2016, at 4:40 PM, =
Gunnar Hellstr=F6m &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se" =
class=3D"">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Den 2016-07-20 kl. =
10:50, skrev Brian Rosen:</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><blockquote =
cite=3D"mid:3A3B5229-1CB5-431F-BB27-EA73606D2F88@brianrosen.net" =
type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">I=92m very sensitive to user interface =
issues, and have some modest experience building good =
ones.</blockquote><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">I am not talking about user interface =
issues.&nbsp; Just that for successful operation, we have cases when the =
user needs to be informed. And that is the case already with the draft =
as it is now. It will not have the intended effect if the users are not =
informed.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><blockquote =
cite=3D"mid:3A3B5229-1CB5-431F-BB27-EA73606D2F88@brianrosen.net" =
type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I=92m also pretty firm that protocol standards must not deal, =
in any way, with user interfaces, other than, sometimes, providing some =
information in protocol messages that are not strictly speaking required =
for the proper implementation of the protocol.<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">Right. The protocol can be executed on its own, =
but for many use cases we need to indicate to the users what the outcome =
was, otherwise we will leave them in uncertainty and they may act =
completely against what the protocol mechanism decided.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><blockquote =
cite=3D"mid:3A3B5229-1CB5-431F-BB27-EA73606D2F88@brianrosen.net" =
type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">When I read a statement that =93both sides should be aware of =
which language was negotiated=94, I interpret that as the implementation =
(that is, the code), and not the humans. &nbsp;It means that the =
messages in the protocol must result in both ends of the protocol =
knowing the result. &nbsp;We do use the word =93users=94 occasionally in =
protocol documents, and that=92s the term I expect to see when we mean =
the humans.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">Well. whatever was the intention with the =
sentence in the introduction, the users in many cases need to be =
informed and aware.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><blockquote =
cite=3D"mid:3A3B5229-1CB5-431F-BB27-EA73606D2F88@brianrosen.net" =
type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">The document does describe a mechanism where both ends of the =
negotiation know the result, and thus we fulfill the requirement with no =
further work. &nbsp;User interfaces are free to present anything they =
want. &nbsp;I can easily describe a scenario where they do not present =
the results of the protocol negotiation: we may have one interpreter who =
is interpreting English to ASL on video, and another one who is =
interpreting English to Spanish text. &nbsp;The ASL interpreter doesn=92t =
doesn=92t need to know what is happening in the text change and the =
Spanish interpreter doesn=92t need to know what is happening in the ASL =
channel.</div></blockquote><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">Yes, it is possible to imagine cases when it is =
sufficient to indicate to the callee that there is an incoming call that =
they need to act on. In the case that the callee has indicated<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><font =
color=3D"#cc0000" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">only one single language =
in one single humintlang-send attribute</b></font><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">, then there is no =
question on how to respond to the call. The callee simply welcomes the =
caller in the only language specified.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">But we want other cases to work as well.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><font =
color=3D"#cc0000" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">As soon as the callee has =
indicated capabilities in two languages, it is essential to provide =
information about the outcome of the protocol negotiation to the =
callee.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b></font><span=
 style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">The simple case =
with a callee capable of both spoken and written English is such a case. =
We do not at all need to tell anything about the user interface, but we =
need to mention something about providing information to the =
user.&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">And in order to have a clear outcome in most =
cases, instead of ambiguity, we need at least<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><b =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><font color=3D"#cc0000" =
class=3D"">a notation for the most preferred language =
indication</font></b><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">How else would you be able to start the call in an =
appropriate way suiting the caller?</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">So, the proposals below are still valid, but you might want =
to fine tune them to fit your view of how to indicate items to the =
user.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">/Gunnar</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><blockquote =
cite=3D"mid:3A3B5229-1CB5-431F-BB27-EA73606D2F88@brianrosen.net" =
type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Thus I don=92t think any further work is needed.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Brian</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jul 20, 2016, at 10:23 AM, Gunnar =
Hellstr=F6m &lt;<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" =
href=3D"mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se" =
class=3D"">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);">Brian and all,</p><p class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">We had an interesting discussion =
in the meeting yesterday about indications to the user.</p><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">I =
said that one intention is that the result of the language negotiation =
is provided to the users and that that is already stated in the =
draft.<br class=3D""></p><p class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">In the introduction, we have this =
sentence: "<span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;">Both sides<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D""></span>should be aware of which language was negotiated.<span =
class=3D"">"</span></span></p><p class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif">I agree with this statement, and that =
it is often a requirement for a successful start of the call. It is true =
that the indications are also used for routing and selection of =
participants and user equipment, but also the users need to be informed. =
The answering party need to start the call by using the agreed preferred =
language in the agreed preferred modality, otherwise the call will start =
in confusion.</font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif">Imagine a call from a user preferring =
spoken Greek, ending up at a call center agent capable of English and =
Greek. If the agent starts with a greeting in English instead of Greek, =
the calling user will get unsure if Greek can be used, and the call will =
start in uncertainty or even be conducted in English that the caller =
does not feel confident in.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif">This is not user interface =
specification. It is as simple as the statement in the introduction =
:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></font></span></span><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif">"<span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;">Both =
sides<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D""></span>should be aware of which language was negotiated.<span =
class=3D"">"&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><font=
 class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">The discussion went on =
saying that we do not specify user interfaces in IETF. And that is true, =
but many times we specify items where the user gets aware of the results =
of the protocol interaction. Examples can be call hold and release, =
picture size and orientation, remote camera movements, attended call =
transfer etc. So, we are in good company when we state that both sides =
are made aware of the outcome.<br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">The =
requirement to keep the user aware of which language was negotiated is =
valid for the current scope of the draft as well as when we include =
preference across media and grouping. We can in fact not yet really =
fulfill that requirement within the current scope because we have not =
defined any way to differentiate preference between languages in =
different media. The outcome of the negotiation can still be undefined. =
We can with the current wording for example say that the caller prefers =
spoken English or written English, but not if there is any preference =
between these two providing awareness to the callee about how to start =
the call.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">So, =
two conclusions:</font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p =
class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><b =
class=3D"">1. We need to repeat the statement about bringing awareness =
at a more protruding position in the draft</b><b class=3D"">, and that =
is not a user interface specification.</b><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I =
suggest to add a sentence last in 4:<br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, =
sans-serif">"Information on the accepted language is provided to the =
participants in the call."<br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">and a =
sentence last in 6.2:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">"The =
caller and callee should be provided with information on the outcome of =
the negotiation. This information is intended to enable them to start =
the call in a preferred language."<br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><b =
class=3D"">2.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><b =
class=3D"">We cannot</b><b class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>avoid to<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><b =
class=3D"">specify</b><b class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>preference between =
modalities.</b><b class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>L</b><b class=3D"">eav</b><b =
class=3D"">ing it out would leave</b><b class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>the negotiation with</b><b =
class=3D"">undefined results in many cases and uncertainty about how to =
start the call.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">The =
caller may prefer to use spoken English but can accept to use written =
English, and want to express that so that no calls are missed. A callee =
with the same preferences get no clue to how to start the call from a =
negotiation resulting in that both spoken and written English are =
accepted without preference between them. A simple indication of the =
most preferred modality would solve this uncertainty in most cases.<br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">I =
suggest to add an indication of most preferred language as a new section =
6.4.</font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">6.4 =
Most preferred language</font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p =
class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">A =
mechanism is introduced that provides information on the most preferred =
language among all language indications in the session description. This =
is do</font></span></span></font></span></span><span class=3D"" =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                        sans-serif">ne in order to =
provide for a definite outcome of the negotiation of language in most =
cases, and thereby an opportunity for the call to start in a fruitful =
way.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span>=
</font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                        sans-serif">The notation for the =
most preferred language is a plus ('+') character added after the =
language tag in the value of the corresponding language attribute. The =
notation MAY be used independently on both communication directions. The =
order between this indication and the indication for advisory versus =
required is not =
relevant.</font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></=
font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                        sans-serif"><br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span>=
</font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><b class=3D""><span class=3D"" =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                        sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                    sans-serif"><span class=3D"" =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                          Arial, =
sans-serif">Background</font></span></span></font></span></span></font></s=
pan></span></font></span></span></b></p><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                        sans-serif">This discussion is =
in line with the requirement in 3GPP TS 22.228, section 7.5.2.&nbsp; We =
have no clear obligations towards 3GPP, but It would be good if these =
requirements can be fulfilled without further =
standardisation.</font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></=
span></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">This is what is said in the 3GPP =
specification:<o:smarttagtype =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
name=3D"PersonName" class=3D""></o:smarttagtype><o:smarttagtype =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
name=3D"PersonName" class=3D""></o:smarttagtype></p><h3 class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 6pt 0cm 9pt 2cm; text-indent: -2cm; page-break-after: =
avoid; font-size: 14pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-weight: =
normal; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" name=3D"_Toc406715059" =
class=3D"">7.5.2<span class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>Negotiation at IM =
session invocation</a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></h3><o:smarttagtype =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
name=3D"PersonName" class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 9pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;">It shall be possible for the capability negotiation to =
take place at the time of the IP multimedia session invocation. Refer to =
clause 7.3 for further details on capability negotiation on IP =
multimedia session invocation.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 9pt; font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">A UE should support negotiation =
of the user's desired language(s) (as defined in<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span class=3D"" =
lang=3D"EN-US">IANA [29])<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>and modalities for =
spoken, signed and written languages.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 9pt; font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">The system should be able to =
negotiate the user's desired language(s) and modalities, per media =
stream<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><font class=3D"" =
color=3D"#cc0000"><b class=3D"">and/or session, in order of =
preference</b></font>.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 9pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;">A service provider shall be able to pass language and =
modality<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><st1:personname=
 w:st=3D"on" class=3D"">info</st1:personname>rmation between the =
endpoints. With respect to the language and modality<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><st1:personname w:st=3D"on" =
class=3D"">info</st1:personname>rmation, there are no other service =
provider actions required.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p></o:smarttagtype><div =
class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                        =
sans-serif">--------------------------------------------------</font></spa=
n></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></=
p><p class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font =
class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                        =
sans-serif">Regards</font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span=
></span></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                      sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                        sans-serif">Gunnar<br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span>=
</font></span></span></p><div class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""></span></span><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><pre=
 class=3D"moz-signature" cols=3D"72" style=3D"font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);">--=20
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
Omnitor
<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" =
href=3D"mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a=
>
</pre></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""><fieldset class=3D"mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset><br =
class=3D""><pre wrap=3D"" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________
SLIM mailing list
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" =
href=3D"mailto:SLIM@ietf.org">SLIM@ietf.org</a>
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim">https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/slim</a>
</pre></blockquote><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><pre class=3D"moz-signature" cols=3D"72" =
style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);">--=20
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
Omnitor
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" =
href=3D"mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a=
>
+46 708 204 288</pre><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">SLIM mailing list</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:SLIM@ietf.org" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">SLIM@ietf.org</a><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Nik Tomkinson <rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 17:04:39 +0100
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To: Brian Rosen <br@brianrosen.net>
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Subject: Re: [Slim] Variations in display names
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Hi Brian,

Thanks very much for asking others to look at the draft.

The restriction was added in the latest version to attempt to avoid the
issue highlighted in the paragraph I added to the security considerations.
I don't mind either relaxing the restriction or removing it completely as
long as it is clear enough that the impersonation risk is there and that
the From values in the language message parts correspond to the same sender.

I am assuming that the differences that your user requires are cosmetic
rather than a different email address.

There may be confusion because the email listing (eg. inbox list of
summaries) is likely to show the top-level sender but the detail (when
clicked on) is likely to show the From value in the selected part.

Nik.

On 20 July 2016 at 15:49, Brian Rosen <br@brianrosen.net> wrote:

> I am trying to find folks to prototype and interop test -multilanguage.  I
> had some possible users look at the draft, and one of them observed that
> they would like to modify the display name in the From based on language,
> but the text expressly forbids From from being in the labeled part.
>
> Do we have any appetite to allow this?
>
> Brian
> _______________________________________________
> SLIM mailing list
> SLIM@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>



-- 

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Multiple Language Content Type Internet Draft:

<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-multilangcontent/>
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/
<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-slim-multilangcontent/>

-----------------------------------------------------------------

--001a113e6e5cdd16e60538135b44
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Brian,<div><br></div><div>Thanks very much for asking o=
thers to look at the draft.</div><div><br></div><div>The restriction was ad=
ded in the latest version to attempt to avoid the issue highlighted in the =
paragraph I added to the security considerations. I don&#39;t mind either r=
elaxing the restriction or removing it completely as long as it is clear en=
ough that the impersonation risk is there and that the From values in the l=
anguage message parts correspond to the same sender.</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>I am assuming that the differences that your user requires are cosmetic =
rather than a different email address.</div><div><br></div><div>There may b=
e confusion because the email listing (eg. inbox list of summaries) is like=
ly to show the top-level sender but the detail (when clicked on) is likely =
to show the From value in the selected part.</div><div><br></div><div>Nik.<=
/div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 20 =
July 2016 at 15:49, Brian Rosen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:br@=
brianrosen.net" target=3D"_blank">br@brianrosen.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<b=
r><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:=
1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I am trying to find folks to prototype and=
 interop test -multilanguage.=C2=A0 I had some possible users look at the d=
raft, and one of them observed that they would like to modify the display n=
ame in the From based on language, but the text expressly forbids From from=
 being in the labeled part.<br>
<br>
Do we have any appetite to allow this?<br>
<br>
Brian<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
SLIM mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:SLIM@ietf.org">SLIM@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=
=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><pre><span =
style=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace">-------------------------------=
----------------------------------<br>Multiple Language Content Type Intern=
et Draft:</span></pre><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomk=
inson-multilangcontent/" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-family:couri=
er new,monospace"></span></a><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dra=
ft-tomkinson-slim-multilangcontent/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.=
ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/</a><br><pre><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:courier new,monospace">-----------------------------------------=
------------------------</span><br></pre></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div>
</div>

--001a113e6e5cdd16e60538135b44--


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#1: Test ticket

 Test ticket #1

-- 
--------------------------------+----------------------------
 Reporter:  nrooney@gsma.com    |      Owner:  Natasha Rooney
     Type:  task                |     Status:  new
 Priority:  trivial             |  Milestone:  milestone1
Component:  use-cases           |    Version:  1.0
 Severity:  Active WG Document  |   Keywords:
--------------------------------+----------------------------

Ticket URL: <https://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/trac/ticket/1>
slim <https://tools.ietf.org/slim/>


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Subject: Re: [Slim] awareness to the user in the slim real-time draft
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Den 2016-07-20 kl. 16:58, skrev Brian Rosen:

> We are not communicating :)
>
> Since the protocol mechanism described informs both ends of the result 
> of the negotiation, no further text is needed to fulfill the requirement.
> You want to go beyond what the requirement states.
>
> I think the statement “*As soon as the callee has indicated 
> capabilities in two languages, it is essential to provide information 
> about the outcome of the protocol negotiation to the callee*” is not 
> always correct, and is a user interface issue, not a protocol issue. 
>  The protocol exchange provides all the results to both ends, and any 
> implementation is free to show any or all of that information, in any 
> form it wants, to the human.  It is not appropriate for us to say what 
> it should do; that is very implementation dependent.
> I specifically object to “a notation for the most preferred language”, 
> which, strictly speaking, we have (order, per media).  You want that 
> per session, and I object to doing that.  I strongly object to 
> twisting “both sides should be aware…” into a requirement to transport 
> a preference in language per session.

Why don't you want to solve the human problem to start a call in the 
most effective way.
My view is that we work on a draft that can be used for negotiation of 
language in a real-time call. In many cases the successful application 
involves providing guidance to the users so they know how to start the 
call. We do not need to say when and how that shall be done, but we need 
to make sure that the involved endpoints can have sufficient information 
for provision to the user in case it is needed to get a successful start 
of the human language use in the session.

The 3GPP requirement is for a preference per session and per media. We 
have some intentions to make the slim output usable to 3GPP, so why do 
you want to stop half-way?  What makes the preference indication per 
session so hard to accept when that is what is needed to complete the 
negotiation to provide a defined outcome in a majority of cases?

Since we have the phrase about awareness in the introduction, my 
proposals under 1. below are not strictly needed, but clarifying.
The issue under point 2. is much more important for successful starts of 
calls.   If we do not solve it here, how do you then propose to solve it?

Gunnar
>
> Brian
>
>
>> On Jul 20, 2016, at 4:40 PM, Gunnar Hellström 
>> <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>> wrote:
>>
>> Den 2016-07-20 kl. 10:50, skrev Brian Rosen:
>>> I’m very sensitive to user interface issues, and have some modest 
>>> experience building good ones.
>> I am not talking about user interface issues.  Just that for 
>> successful operation, we have cases when the user needs to be 
>> informed. And that is the case already with the draft as it is now. 
>> It will not have the intended effect if the users are not informed.
>>>
>>> I’m also pretty firm that protocol standards must not deal, in any 
>>> way, with user interfaces, other than, sometimes, providing some 
>>> information in protocol messages that are not strictly speaking 
>>> required for the proper implementation of the protocol.
>> Right. The protocol can be executed on its own, but for many use 
>> cases we need to indicate to the users what the outcome was, 
>> otherwise we will leave them in uncertainty and they may act 
>> completely against what the protocol mechanism decided.
>>>
>>> When I read a statement that “both sides should be aware of which 
>>> language was negotiated”, I interpret that as the implementation 
>>> (that is, the code), and not the humans.  It means that the messages 
>>> in the protocol must result in both ends of the protocol knowing the 
>>> result.  We do use the word “users” occasionally in protocol 
>>> documents, and that’s the term I expect to see when we mean the humans.
>> Well. whatever was the intention with the sentence in the 
>> introduction, the users in many cases need to be informed and aware.
>>>
>>> The document does describe a mechanism where both ends of the 
>>> negotiation know the result, and thus we fulfill the requirement 
>>> with no further work.  User interfaces are free to present anything 
>>> they want.  I can easily describe a scenario where they do not 
>>> present the results of the protocol negotiation: we may have one 
>>> interpreter who is interpreting English to ASL on video, and another 
>>> one who is interpreting English to Spanish text.  The ASL 
>>> interpreter doesn’t doesn’t need to know what is happening in the 
>>> text change and the Spanish interpreter doesn’t need to know what is 
>>> happening in the ASL channel.
>> Yes, it is possible to imagine cases when it is sufficient to 
>> indicate to the callee that there is an incoming call that they need 
>> to act on. In the case that the callee has indicated*only one single 
>> language in one single humintlang-send attribute*, then there is no 
>> question on how to respond to the call. The callee simply welcomes 
>> the caller in the only language specified.
>>
>> But we want other cases to work as well.*As soon as the callee has 
>> indicated capabilities in two languages, it is essential to provide 
>> information about the outcome of the protocol negotiation to the 
>> callee.*The simple case with a callee capable of both spoken and 
>> written English is such a case. We do not at all need to tell 
>> anything about the user interface, but we need to mention something 
>> about providing information to the user.
>>
>> And in order to have a clear outcome in most cases, instead of 
>> ambiguity, we need at least*a notation for the most preferred 
>> language indication*.
>>
>> How else would you be able to start the call in an appropriate way 
>> suiting the caller?
>>
>> So, the proposals below are still valid, but you might want to fine 
>> tune them to fit your view of how to indicate items to the user.
>>
>> /Gunnar
>>
>>>
>>> Thus I don’t think any further work is needed.
>>>
>>> Brian
>>>
>>>> On Jul 20, 2016, at 10:23 AM, Gunnar Hellström 
>>>> <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Brian and all,
>>>>
>>>> We had an interesting discussion in the meeting yesterday about 
>>>> indications to the user.
>>>>
>>>> I said that one intention is that the result of the language 
>>>> negotiation is provided to the users and that that is already 
>>>> stated in the draft.
>>>>
>>>> In the introduction, we have this sentence: "Both sidesshould be 
>>>> aware of which language was negotiated."
>>>>
>>>> I agree with this statement, and that it is often a requirement for 
>>>> a successful start of the call. It is true that the indications are 
>>>> also used for routing and selection of participants and user 
>>>> equipment, but also the users need to be informed. The answering 
>>>> party need to start the call by using the agreed preferred language 
>>>> in the agreed preferred modality, otherwise the call will start in 
>>>> confusion.
>>>>
>>>> Imagine a call from a user preferring spoken Greek, ending up at a 
>>>> call center agent capable of English and Greek. If the agent starts 
>>>> with a greeting in English instead of Greek, the calling user will 
>>>> get unsure if Greek can be used, and the call will start in 
>>>> uncertainty or even be conducted in English that the caller does 
>>>> not feel confident in.
>>>>
>>>> This is not user interface specification. It is as simple as the 
>>>> statement in the introduction :"Both sidesshould be aware of which 
>>>> language was negotiated." The discussion went on saying that we do 
>>>> not specify user interfaces in IETF. And that is true, but many 
>>>> times we specify items where the user gets aware of the results of 
>>>> the protocol interaction. Examples can be call hold and release, 
>>>> picture size and orientation, remote camera movements, attended 
>>>> call transfer etc. So, we are in good company when we state that 
>>>> both sides are made aware of the outcome.
>>>>
>>>> The requirement to keep the user aware of which language was 
>>>> negotiated is valid for the current scope of the draft as well as 
>>>> when we include preference across media and grouping. We can in 
>>>> fact not yet really fulfill that requirement within the current 
>>>> scope because we have not defined any way to differentiate 
>>>> preference between languages in different media. The outcome of the 
>>>> negotiation can still be undefined. We can with the current wording 
>>>> for example say that the caller prefers spoken English or written 
>>>> English, but not if there is any preference between these two 
>>>> providing awareness to the callee about how to start the call.
>>>>
>>>> So, two conclusions:
>>>>
>>>> *1. We need to repeat the statement about bringing awareness at a 
>>>> more protruding position in the draft**, and that is not a user 
>>>> interface specification.*
>>>>
>>>> I suggest to add a sentence last in 4:
>>>>
>>>> "Information on the accepted language is provided to the 
>>>> participants in the call."
>>>>
>>>> and a sentence last in 6.2:
>>>>
>>>> "The caller and callee should be provided with information on the 
>>>> outcome of the negotiation. This information is intended to enable 
>>>> them to start the call in a preferred language."
>>>>
>>>> *2.**We cannot**avoid to**specify**preference between 
>>>> modalities.**L**eav**ing it out would leave**the negotiation 
>>>> with**undefined results in many cases and uncertainty about how to 
>>>> start the call.*
>>>>
>>>> The caller may prefer to use spoken English but can accept to use 
>>>> written English, and want to express that so that no calls are 
>>>> missed. A callee with the same preferences get no clue to how to 
>>>> start the call from a negotiation resulting in that both spoken and 
>>>> written English are accepted without preference between them. A 
>>>> simple indication of the most preferred modality would solve this 
>>>> uncertainty in most cases.
>>>>
>>>> I suggest to add an indication of most preferred language as a new 
>>>> section 6.4.
>>>>
>>>> 6.4 Most preferred language
>>>>
>>>> A mechanism is introduced that provides information on the most 
>>>> preferred language among all language indications in the session 
>>>> description. This is done in order to provide for a definite 
>>>> outcome of the negotiation of language in most cases, and thereby 
>>>> an opportunity for the call to start in a fruitful way.
>>>>
>>>> The notation for the most preferred language is a plus ('+') 
>>>> character added after the language tag in the value of the 
>>>> corresponding language attribute. The notation MAY be used 
>>>> independently on both communication directions. The order between 
>>>> this indication and the indication for advisory versus required is 
>>>> not relevant.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Background*
>>>>
>>>> This discussion is in line with the requirement in 3GPP TS 22.228, 
>>>> section 7.5.2.  We have no clear obligations towards 3GPP, but It 
>>>> would be good if these requirements can be fulfilled without 
>>>> further standardisation.
>>>>
>>>> This is what is said in the 3GPP specification:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>       7.5.2Negotiation at IM session invocation
>>>>
>>>> It shall be possible for the capability negotiation to take place 
>>>> at the time of the IP multimedia session invocation. Refer to 
>>>> clause 7.3 for further details on capability negotiation on IP 
>>>> multimedia session invocation.
>>>>
>>>> A UE should support negotiation of the user's desired language(s) 
>>>> (as defined inIANA [29])and modalities for spoken, signed and 
>>>> written languages.
>>>>
>>>> The system should be able to negotiate the user's desired 
>>>> language(s) and modalities, per media stream*and/or session, in 
>>>> order of preference*.
>>>>
>>>> A service provider shall be able to pass language and 
>>>> modalityinformation between the endpoints. With respect to the 
>>>> language and modalityinformation, there are no other service 
>>>> provider actions required.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>> Gunnar
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> -----------------------------------------
>>>> Gunnar Hellström
>>>> Omnitor
>>>> gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> SLIM mailing list
>>> SLIM@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>>
>> -- 
>> -----------------------------------------
>> Gunnar Hellström
>> Omnitor
>> gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>> +46 708 204 288
>> _______________________________________________
>> SLIM mailing list
>> SLIM@ietf.org <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> SLIM mailing list
> SLIM@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim

-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
+46 708 204 288


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    <p>Den 2016-07-20 kl. 16:58, skrev Brian Rosen:<br>
    </p>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:68C9050A-DF70-4225-BE22-54FA2185E263@brianrosen.net"
      type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
        charset=windows-1252">
      We are not communicating :)
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">Since the protocol mechanism described informs both
        ends of the result of the negotiation, no further text is needed
        to fulfill the requirement.</div>
      <div class="">You want to go beyond what the requirement states.  </div>
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">I think the statement “<b class=""
          style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); color: rgb(204,
          0, 0);">As soon as the callee has indicated capabilities in
          two languages, it is essential to provide information about
          the outcome of the protocol negotiation to the callee</b>” is
        not always correct, and is a user interface issue, not a
        protocol issue.  The protocol exchange provides all the results
        to both ends, and any implementation is free to show any or all
        of that information, in any form it wants, to the human.  It is
        not appropriate for us to say what it should do; that is very
        implementation dependent.  <br>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:68C9050A-DF70-4225-BE22-54FA2185E263@brianrosen.net"
      type="cite">
      <div class="">I specifically object to “a notation for the most
        preferred language”, which, strictly speaking, we have (order,
        per media).  You want that per session, and I object to doing
        that.  I strongly object to twisting “both sides should be
        aware…” into a requirement to transport a preference in language
        per session.</div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Why don't you want to solve the human problem to start a call in the
    most effective way. <br>
    My view is that we work on a draft that can be used for negotiation
    of language in a real-time call. In many cases the successful
    application involves providing guidance to the users so they know
    how to start the call. We do not need to say when and how that shall
    be done, but we need to make sure that the involved endpoints can
    have sufficient information for provision to the user in case it is
    needed to get a successful start of the human language use in the
    session.<br>
    <br>
    The 3GPP requirement is for a preference per session and per media.
    We have some intentions to make the slim output usable to 3GPP, so
    why do you want to stop half-way?  What makes the preference
    indication per session so hard to accept when that is what is needed
    to complete the negotiation to provide a defined outcome in a
    majority of cases? <br>
    <br>
    Since we have the phrase about awareness in the introduction, my
    proposals under 1. below are not strictly needed, but clarifying. <br>
    The issue under point 2. is much more important for successful
    starts of calls.   If we do not solve it here, how do you then
    propose to solve it?<br>
    <br>
    Gunnar<br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:68C9050A-DF70-4225-BE22-54FA2185E263@brianrosen.net"
      type="cite">
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">Brian</div>
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">
        <div>
          <blockquote type="cite" class="">
            <div class="">On Jul 20, 2016, at 4:40 PM, Gunnar Hellström
              &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se" class="">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>&gt;
              wrote:</div>
            <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
            <div class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica;
                font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
                normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
                orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none;
                display: inline !important;" class="">Den 2016-07-20 kl.
                10:50, skrev Brian Rosen:</span><br style="font-family:
                Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
                letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
                start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
                white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
                rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <blockquote
                cite="mid:3A3B5229-1CB5-431F-BB27-EA73606D2F88@brianrosen.net"
                type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
                12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">I’m very
                sensitive to user interface issues, and have some modest
                experience building good ones.</blockquote>
              <span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none;
                display: inline !important;" class="">I am not talking
                about user interface issues.  Just that for successful
                operation, we have cases when the user needs to be
                informed. And that is the case already with the draft as
                it is now. It will not have the intended effect if the
                users are not informed.</span><br style="font-family:
                Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
                letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
                start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
                white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
                rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <blockquote
                cite="mid:3A3B5229-1CB5-431F-BB27-EA73606D2F88@brianrosen.net"
                type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
                12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
                <div class=""><br class="">
                </div>
                <div class="">I’m also pretty firm that protocol
                  standards must not deal, in any way, with user
                  interfaces, other than, sometimes, providing some
                  information in protocol messages that are not strictly
                  speaking required for the proper implementation of the
                  protocol.<br class="">
                </div>
              </blockquote>
              <span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none;
                display: inline !important;" class="">Right. The
                protocol can be executed on its own, but for many use
                cases we need to indicate to the users what the outcome
                was, otherwise we will leave them in uncertainty and
                they may act completely against what the protocol
                mechanism decided.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br
                style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <blockquote
                cite="mid:3A3B5229-1CB5-431F-BB27-EA73606D2F88@brianrosen.net"
                type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
                12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
                <div class=""><br class="">
                </div>
                <div class="">When I read a statement that “both sides
                  should be aware of which language was negotiated”, I
                  interpret that as the implementation (that is, the
                  code), and not the humans.  It means that the messages
                  in the protocol must result in both ends of the
                  protocol knowing the result.  We do use the word
                  “users” occasionally in protocol documents, and that’s
                  the term I expect to see when we mean the humans.<span
                    class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
                </div>
              </blockquote>
              <span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none;
                display: inline !important;" class="">Well. whatever was
                the intention with the sentence in the introduction, the
                users in many cases need to be informed and aware.</span><br
                style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <blockquote
                cite="mid:3A3B5229-1CB5-431F-BB27-EA73606D2F88@brianrosen.net"
                type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
                12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
                <div class=""><br class="">
                </div>
                <div class="">The document does describe a mechanism
                  where both ends of the negotiation know the result,
                  and thus we fulfill the requirement with no further
                  work.  User interfaces are free to present anything
                  they want.  I can easily describe a scenario where
                  they do not present the results of the protocol
                  negotiation: we may have one interpreter who is
                  interpreting English to ASL on video, and another one
                  who is interpreting English to Spanish text.  The ASL
                  interpreter doesn’t doesn’t need to know what is
                  happening in the text change and the Spanish
                  interpreter doesn’t need to know what is happening in
                  the ASL channel.</div>
              </blockquote>
              <span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none;
                display: inline !important;" class="">Yes, it is
                possible to imagine cases when it is sufficient to
                indicate to the callee that there is an incoming call
                that they need to act on. In the case that the callee
                has indicated<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><font
                style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""
                color="#cc0000"><b class="">only one single language in
                  one single humintlang-send attribute</b></font><span
                style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none;
                display: inline !important;" class="">, then there is no
                question on how to respond to the call. The callee
                simply welcomes the caller in the only language
                specified.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br
                style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none;
                display: inline !important;" class="">But we want other
                cases to work as well.<span
                  class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><font
                style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""
                color="#cc0000"><b class="">As soon as the callee has
                  indicated capabilities in two languages, it is
                  essential to provide information about the outcome of
                  the protocol negotiation to the callee.<span
                    class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></font><span
                style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none;
                display: inline !important;" class="">The simple case
                with a callee capable of both spoken and written English
                is such a case. We do not at all need to tell anything
                about the user interface, but we need to mention
                something about providing information to the user. <span
                  class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br
                style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none;
                display: inline !important;" class="">And in order to
                have a clear outcome in most cases, instead of
                ambiguity, we need at least<span
                  class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b
                style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
                start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
                white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
                rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><font class=""
                  color="#cc0000">a notation for the most preferred
                  language indication</font></b><span
                style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none;
                display: inline !important;" class="">.</span><br
                style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none;
                display: inline !important;" class="">How else would you
                be able to start the call in an appropriate way suiting
                the caller?</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica;
                font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
                normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
                orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none;
                display: inline !important;" class="">So, the proposals
                below are still valid, but you might want to fine tune
                them to fit your view of how to indicate items to the
                user.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica;
                font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
                normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
                orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none;
                display: inline !important;" class="">/Gunnar</span><br
                style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <blockquote
                cite="mid:3A3B5229-1CB5-431F-BB27-EA73606D2F88@brianrosen.net"
                type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
                12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
                <div class=""><br class="">
                </div>
                <div class="">Thus I don’t think any further work is
                  needed.</div>
                <div class=""><br class="">
                </div>
                <div class="">Brian</div>
                <div class=""><br class="">
                  <div class="">
                    <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                      <div class="">On Jul 20, 2016, at 10:23 AM, Gunnar
                        Hellström &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                          href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se"
                          class="">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>&gt;
                        wrote:</div>
                      <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
                      <div class="">
                        <p class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Brian
                          and all,</p>
                        <p class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">We had
                          an interesting discussion in the meeting
                          yesterday about indications to the user.</p>
                        <p class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">I said
                          that one intention is that the result of the
                          language negotiation is provided to the users
                          and that that is already stated in the draft.<br
                            class="">
                        </p>
                        <p class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">In the
                          introduction, we have this sentence: "<span
                            class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                            line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                            lang="EN-US">Both sides<span
                              class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span
                              class=""></span>should be aware of which
                            language was negotiated.<span class="">"</span></span></p>
                        <p class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span
                            class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                            line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                                face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">I
                                agree with this statement, and that it
                                is often a requirement for a successful
                                start of the call. It is true that the
                                indications are also used for routing
                                and selection of participants and user
                                equipment, but also the users need to be
                                informed. The answering party need to
                                start the call by using the agreed
                                preferred language in the agreed
                                preferred modality, otherwise the call
                                will start in confusion.</font></span></span></p>
                        <p class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span
                            class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                            line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                                face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">Imagine
                                a call from a user preferring spoken
                                Greek, ending up at a call center agent
                                capable of English and Greek. If the
                                agent starts with a greeting in English
                                instead of Greek, the calling user will
                                get unsure if Greek can be used, and the
                                call will start in uncertainty or even
                                be conducted in English that the caller
                                does not feel confident in.<span
                                  class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br
                                  class="">
                              </font></span></span></p>
                        <p class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span
                            class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                            line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                                face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">This
                                is not user interface specification. It
                                is as simple as the statement in the
                                introduction :<span
                                  class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></font></span></span><span
                            class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                            line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                                face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">"<span
                                  class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                                  line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                                  lang="EN-US">Both sides<span
                                    class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span
                                    class=""></span>should be aware of
                                  which language was negotiated.<span
                                    class="">" <span
                                      class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><font
                                      class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif">The discussion went on
                                      saying that we do not specify user
                                      interfaces in IETF. And that is
                                      true, but many times we specify
                                      items where the user gets aware of
                                      the results of the protocol
                                      interaction. Examples can be call
                                      hold and release, picture size and
                                      orientation, remote camera
                                      movements, attended call transfer
                                      etc. So, we are in good company
                                      when we state that both sides are
                                      made aware of the outcome.<br
                                        class="">
                                    </font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
                        <p class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span
                            class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                            line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                                face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                  class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                                  line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                                  lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                      class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif">The requirement to
                                      keep the user aware of which
                                      language was negotiated is valid
                                      for the current scope of the draft
                                      as well as when we include
                                      preference across media and
                                      grouping. We can in fact not yet
                                      really fulfill that requirement
                                      within the current scope because
                                      we have not defined any way to
                                      differentiate preference between
                                      languages in different media. The
                                      outcome of the negotiation can
                                      still be undefined. We can with
                                      the current wording for example
                                      say that the caller prefers spoken
                                      English or written English, but
                                      not if there is any preference
                                      between these two providing
                                      awareness to the callee about how
                                      to start the call.<span
                                        class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br
                                        class="">
                                    </font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
                        <p class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span
                            class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                            line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                                face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                  class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                                  line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                                  lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                      class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif">So, two conclusions:</font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
                        <p class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span
                            class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                            line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                                face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                  class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                                  line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                                  lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                      class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif"><b class="">1. We need
                                        to repeat the statement about
                                        bringing awareness at a more
                                        protruding position in the draft</b><b
                                        class="">, and that is not a
                                        user interface specification.</b><br
                                        class="">
                                      <br class="">
                                      I suggest to add a sentence last
                                      in 4:<br class="">
                                    </font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
                        <p class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span
                            class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                            line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                                face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                  class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                                  line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                                  lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                      class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif">"Information on the
                                      accepted language is provided to
                                      the participants in the call."<br
                                        class="">
                                    </font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
                        <p class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span
                            class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                            line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                                face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                  class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                                  line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                                  lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                      class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif">and a sentence last in
                                      6.2:<span
                                        class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br
                                        class="">
                                    </font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
                        <p class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span
                            class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                            line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                                face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                  class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                                  line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                                  lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                      class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif">"The caller and callee
                                      should be provided with
                                      information on the outcome of the
                                      negotiation. This information is
                                      intended to enable them to start
                                      the call in a preferred language."<br
                                        class="">
                                    </font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
                        <p class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span
                            class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                            line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                                face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                  class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                                  line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                                  lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                      class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif"><b class="">2.<span
                                          class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b><b
                                        class="">We cannot</b><b
                                        class=""><span
                                          class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>avoid
                                        to<span
                                          class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b><b
                                        class="">specify</b><b class=""><span
                                          class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>preference
                                        between modalities.</b><b
                                        class=""><span
                                          class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>L</b><b
                                        class="">eav</b><b class="">ing
                                        it out would leave</b><b
                                        class=""><span
                                          class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>the
                                        negotiation with</b><b class="">undefined
                                        results in many cases and
                                        uncertainty about how to start
                                        the call.<span
                                          class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b><br
                                        class="">
                                    </font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
                        <p class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span
                            class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                            line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                                face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                  class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                                  line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                                  lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                      class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif">The caller may prefer
                                      to use spoken English but can
                                      accept to use written English, and
                                      want to express that so that no
                                      calls are missed. A callee with
                                      the same preferences get no clue
                                      to how to start the call from a
                                      negotiation resulting in that both
                                      spoken and written English are
                                      accepted without preference
                                      between them. A simple indication
                                      of the most preferred modality
                                      would solve this uncertainty in
                                      most cases.<br class="">
                                    </font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
                        <p class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span
                            class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                            line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                                face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                  class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                                  line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                                  lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                      class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif">I suggest to add an
                                      indication of most preferred
                                      language as a new section 6.4.</font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
                        <p class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span
                            class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                            line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                                face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                  class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                                  line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                                  lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                      class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif">6.4 Most preferred
                                      language</font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
                        <p class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span
                            class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                            line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                                face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                  class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                                  line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                                  lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                      class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif">A mechanism is
                                      introduced that provides
                                      information on the most preferred
                                      language among all language
                                      indications in the session
                                      description. This is do</font></span></span></font></span></span><span
                            class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                            line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                                face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                  class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                                  line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                                  lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                      class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif"><span class=""
                                        style="font-size: 11pt;
                                        line-height:
                                        15.693333625793457px;"
                                        lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                            class="" face="Helvetica,
                                            Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                              class="" style="font-size:
                                              11pt; line-height:
                                              15.693333625793457px;"
                                              lang="EN-US"><span
                                                class=""><font class=""
                                                  face="Helvetica,
                                                  Arial, sans-serif">ne
                                                  in order to provide
                                                  for a definite outcome
                                                  of the negotiation of
                                                  language in most
                                                  cases, and thereby an
                                                  opportunity for the
                                                  call to start in a
                                                  fruitful way.<span
                                                    class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br
                                                    class="">
                                                </font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
                        <p class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span
                            class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                            line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                                face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                  class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                                  line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                                  lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                      class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif"><span class=""
                                        style="font-size: 11pt;
                                        line-height:
                                        15.693333625793457px;"
                                        lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                            class="" face="Helvetica,
                                            Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                              class="" style="font-size:
                                              11pt; line-height:
                                              15.693333625793457px;"
                                              lang="EN-US"><span
                                                class=""><font class=""
                                                  face="Helvetica,
                                                  Arial, sans-serif">The
                                                  notation for the most
                                                  preferred language is
                                                  a plus ('+') character
                                                  added after the
                                                  language tag in the
                                                  value of the
                                                  corresponding language
                                                  attribute. The
                                                  notation MAY be used
                                                  independently on both
                                                  communication
                                                  directions. The order
                                                  between this
                                                  indication and the
                                                  indication for
                                                  advisory versus
                                                  required is not
                                                  relevant.</font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
                        <p class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span
                            class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                            line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                                face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                  class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                                  line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                                  lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                      class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif"><span class=""
                                        style="font-size: 11pt;
                                        line-height:
                                        15.693333625793457px;"
                                        lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                            class="" face="Helvetica,
                                            Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                              class="" style="font-size:
                                              11pt; line-height:
                                              15.693333625793457px;"
                                              lang="EN-US"><span
                                                class=""><font class=""
                                                  face="Helvetica,
                                                  Arial, sans-serif"><br
                                                    class="">
                                                </font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
                        <p class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><b
                            class=""><span class="" style="font-size:
                              11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                              lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                                  face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                    class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                                    line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                                    lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                        class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                        sans-serif"><span class=""
                                          style="font-size: 11pt;
                                          line-height:
                                          15.693333625793457px;"
                                          lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                              class="" face="Helvetica,
                                              Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                                class=""
                                                style="font-size: 11pt;
                                                line-height:
                                                15.693333625793457px;"
                                                lang="EN-US"><span
                                                  class=""><font
                                                    class=""
                                                    face="Helvetica,
                                                    Arial, sans-serif">Background</font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></b></p>
                        <p class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span
                            class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                            line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                                face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                  class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                                  line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                                  lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                      class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif"><span class=""
                                        style="font-size: 11pt;
                                        line-height:
                                        15.693333625793457px;"
                                        lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                            class="" face="Helvetica,
                                            Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                              class="" style="font-size:
                                              11pt; line-height:
                                              15.693333625793457px;"
                                              lang="EN-US"><span
                                                class=""><font class=""
                                                  face="Helvetica,
                                                  Arial, sans-serif">This
                                                  discussion is in line
                                                  with the requirement
                                                  in 3GPP TS 22.228,
                                                  section 7.5.2.  We
                                                  have no clear
                                                  obligations towards
                                                  3GPP, but It would be
                                                  good if these
                                                  requirements can be
                                                  fulfilled without
                                                  further
                                                  standardisation.</font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
                        <p class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">This is
                          what is said in the 3GPP specification:<o:smarttagtype
namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
                            name="PersonName" class=""></o:smarttagtype><o:smarttagtype
namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
                            name="PersonName" class=""></o:smarttagtype></p>
                        <h3 class="" style="margin: 6pt 0cm 9pt 2cm;
                          text-indent: -2cm; page-break-after: avoid;
                          font-size: 14pt; font-family: Arial,
                          sans-serif; font-weight: normal; font-style:
                          normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                          letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-transform: none;
                          white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                          word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
                          0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><a
                            moz-do-not-send="true" name="_Toc406715059"
                            class="">7.5.2<span class="">      <span
                                class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Negotiation
                            at IM session invocation</a><o:p class=""></o:p></h3>
                        <o:smarttagtype
                          namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
                          name="PersonName" class="" style="font-family:
                          Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style:
                          normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                          font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
                          orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent:
                          0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
                          normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
                          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm
                            9pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Times
                            New Roman', serif;">It shall be possible for
                            the capability negotiation to take place at
                            the time of the IP multimedia session
                            invocation. Refer to clause 7.3 for further
                            details on capability negotiation on IP
                            multimedia session invocation.<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm
                            9pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Times
                            New Roman', serif;">A UE should support
                            negotiation of the user's desired
                            language(s) (as defined in<span
                              class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span
                              class="" lang="EN-US">IANA [29])<span
                                class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>and
                            modalities for spoken, signed and written
                            languages.<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm
                            9pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Times
                            New Roman', serif;">The system should be
                            able to negotiate the user's desired
                            language(s) and modalities, per media stream<span
                              class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><font
                              class="" color="#cc0000"><b class="">and/or
                                session, in order of preference</b></font>.<o:p
                              class=""></o:p></p>
                          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm
                            9pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Times
                            New Roman', serif;">A service provider shall
                            be able to pass language and modality<span
                              class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><st1:personname
                              w:st="on" class="">info</st1:personname>rmation
                            between the endpoints. With respect to the
                            language and modality<span
                              class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><st1:personname
                              w:st="on" class="">info</st1:personname>rmation,
                            there are no other service provider actions
                            required.<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
                        </o:smarttagtype>
                        <div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br
                            class="webkit-block-placeholder">
                        </div>
                        <p class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span
                            class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                            line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                                face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                  class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                                  line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                                  lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                      class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif"><span class=""
                                        style="font-size: 11pt;
                                        line-height:
                                        15.693333625793457px;"
                                        lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                            class="" face="Helvetica,
                                            Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                              class="" style="font-size:
                                              11pt; line-height:
                                              15.693333625793457px;"
                                              lang="EN-US"><span
                                                class=""><font class=""
                                                  face="Helvetica,
                                                  Arial, sans-serif">--------------------------------------------------</font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
                        <p class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span
                            class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                            line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                                face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                  class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                                  line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                                  lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                      class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif"><span class=""
                                        style="font-size: 11pt;
                                        line-height:
                                        15.693333625793457px;"
                                        lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                            class="" face="Helvetica,
                                            Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                              class="" style="font-size:
                                              11pt; line-height:
                                              15.693333625793457px;"
                                              lang="EN-US"><span
                                                class=""><font class=""
                                                  face="Helvetica,
                                                  Arial, sans-serif">Regards</font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
                        <p class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span
                            class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                            line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font class=""
                                face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                  class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                                  line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                                  lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                      class="" face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif"><span class=""
                                        style="font-size: 11pt;
                                        line-height:
                                        15.693333625793457px;"
                                        lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                            class="" face="Helvetica,
                                            Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                              class="" style="font-size:
                                              11pt; line-height:
                                              15.693333625793457px;"
                                              lang="EN-US"><span
                                                class=""><font class=""
                                                  face="Helvetica,
                                                  Arial, sans-serif">Gunnar<br
                                                    class="">
                                                </font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
                        <div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span
                            class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                            line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"
                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""></span></span><br
                            class="webkit-block-placeholder">
                        </div>
                        <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72" style="font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>
</pre>
                      </div>
                    </blockquote>
                  </div>
                  <br class="">
                </div>
                <br class="">
                <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
                <br class="">
                <pre class="" wrap="">_______________________________________________
SLIM mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:SLIM@ietf.org">SLIM@ietf.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a>
</pre>
              </blockquote>
              <br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72" style="font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>
+46 708 204 288</pre>
              <span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none;
                display: inline !important;" class="">_______________________________________________</span><br
                style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none;
                display: inline !important;" class="">SLIM mailing list</span><br
                style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:SLIM@ietf.org"
                style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">SLIM@ietf.org</a><br
                style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim"
                style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a><br
                style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
            </div>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br class="">
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
SLIM mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:SLIM@ietf.org">SLIM@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>
+46 708 204 288</pre>
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Subject: Re: [Slim] Variations in display names
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Yeah, I=E2=80=99d like to at least relax it, stating that the email =
address has to be the same.
Yes, this is cosmetic.

I get your point about the top level sender

Brian

> On Jul 20, 2016, at 6:04 PM, Nik Tomkinson =
<rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Brian,
>=20
> Thanks very much for asking others to look at the draft.
>=20
> The restriction was added in the latest version to attempt to avoid =
the issue highlighted in the paragraph I added to the security =
considerations. I don't mind either relaxing the restriction or removing =
it completely as long as it is clear enough that the impersonation risk =
is there and that the =46rom values in the language message parts =
correspond to the same sender.
>=20
> I am assuming that the differences that your user requires are =
cosmetic rather than a different email address.
>=20
> There may be confusion because the email listing (eg. inbox list of =
summaries) is likely to show the top-level sender but the detail (when =
clicked on) is likely to show the =46rom value in the selected part.
>=20
> Nik.
>=20
> On 20 July 2016 at 15:49, Brian Rosen <br@brianrosen.net =
<mailto:br@brianrosen.net>> wrote:
> I am trying to find folks to prototype and interop test =
-multilanguage.  I had some possible users look at the draft, and one of =
them observed that they would like to modify the display name in the =
=46rom based on language, but the text expressly forbids =46rom from =
being in the labeled part.
>=20
> Do we have any appetite to allow this?
>=20
> Brian
> _______________________________________________
> SLIM mailing list
> SLIM@ietf.org <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Multiple Language Content Type Internet Draft:
>  =
<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-multilangcontent/>https:/=
/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/ =
<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-slim-multilangcontent/>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Yeah, I=E2=80=99d like to at least relax it, stating that the =
email address has to be the same.<div class=3D"">Yes, this is =
cosmetic.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
get your point about the top level sender</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Brian</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Jul 20, 2016, at 6:04 PM, Nik Tomkinson &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">Hi Brian,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Thanks very much for asking others to look at the =
draft.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The =
restriction was added in the latest version to attempt to avoid the =
issue highlighted in the paragraph I added to the security =
considerations. I don't mind either relaxing the restriction or removing =
it completely as long as it is clear enough that the impersonation risk =
is there and that the =46rom values in the language message parts =
correspond to the same sender.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I am assuming that the differences that =
your user requires are cosmetic rather than a different email =
address.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">There =
may be confusion because the email listing (eg. inbox list of summaries) =
is likely to show the top-level sender but the detail (when clicked on) =
is likely to show the =46rom value in the selected part.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Nik.</div></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 20 =
July 2016 at 15:49, Brian Rosen <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:br@brianrosen.net" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">br@brianrosen.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I am trying to find =
folks to prototype and interop test -multilanguage.&nbsp; I had some =
possible users look at the draft, and one of them observed that they =
would like to modify the display name in the =46rom based on language, =
but the text expressly forbids =46rom from being in the labeled part.<br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Do we have any appetite to allow this?<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Brian<br class=3D"">
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">
SLIM mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:SLIM@ietf.org" class=3D"">SLIM@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a><br class=3D"">
</blockquote></div><br class=3D""><br clear=3D"all" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>-- <br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><pre class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:courier =
new,monospace" =
class=3D"">---------------------------------------------------------------=
--<br class=3D"">Multiple Language Content Type Internet =
Draft:</span></pre><a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-multilangcontent/"=
 target=3D"_blank" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:courier =
new,monospace" class=3D""></span></a><a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-slim-multilangcont=
ent/" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangconte=
nt/</a><br class=3D""><pre class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:courier =
new,monospace" =
class=3D"">---------------------------------------------------------------=
--</span><br =
class=3D""></pre></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Brian Rosen <br@brianrosen.net>
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Subject: Re: [Slim] awareness to the user in the slim real-time draft
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I believe we had a consensus call on not including per session =
preferences in this document.  Chairs can correct me if I am =
misremembering or misinterpreting what happened.

Anyone can write a draft.  If you want to propose a solution to that =
problem, go ahead, and write a draft.  I would oppose adding that =
capability to this document.

I don=92t think we need to, or want to, specify any implementation =
advice with regard to user interfaces. I think =93provide =
information=85.to the callee=94 is a user interface issue.

Brian
> On Jul 20, 2016, at 6:11 PM, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m =
<gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se> wrote:
>=20
> Den 2016-07-20 kl. 16:58, skrev Brian Rosen:
>=20
>> We are not communicating :)
>>=20
>> Since the protocol mechanism described informs both ends of the =
result of the negotiation, no further text is needed to fulfill the =
requirement.
>> You want to go beyond what the requirement states. =20
>>=20
>> I think the statement =93As soon as the callee has indicated =
capabilities in two languages, it is essential to provide information =
about the outcome of the protocol negotiation to the callee=94 is not =
always correct, and is a user interface issue, not a protocol issue.  =
The protocol exchange provides all the results to both ends, and any =
implementation is free to show any or all of that information, in any =
form it wants, to the human.  It is not appropriate for us to say what =
it should do; that is very implementation dependent. =20
>> I specifically object to =93a notation for the most preferred =
language=94, which, strictly speaking, we have (order, per media).  You =
want that per session, and I object to doing that.  I strongly object to =
twisting =93both sides should be aware=85=94 into a requirement to =
transport a preference in language per session.
>=20
> Why don't you want to solve the human problem to start a call in the =
most effective way.=20
> My view is that we work on a draft that can be used for negotiation of =
language in a real-time call. In many cases the successful application =
involves providing guidance to the users so they know how to start the =
call. We do not need to say when and how that shall be done, but we need =
to make sure that the involved endpoints can have sufficient information =
for provision to the user in case it is needed to get a successful start =
of the human language use in the session.
>=20
> The 3GPP requirement is for a preference per session and per media. We =
have some intentions to make the slim output usable to 3GPP, so why do =
you want to stop half-way?  What makes the preference indication per =
session so hard to accept when that is what is needed to complete the =
negotiation to provide a defined outcome in a majority of cases?=20
>=20
> Since we have the phrase about awareness in the introduction, my =
proposals under 1. below are not strictly needed, but clarifying.=20
> The issue under point 2. is much more important for successful starts =
of calls.   If we do not solve it here, how do you then propose to solve =
it?
>=20
> Gunnar
>>=20
>> Brian
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On Jul 20, 2016, at 4:40 PM, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m =
<gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>> =
wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Den 2016-07-20 kl. 10:50, skrev Brian Rosen:
>>>> I=92m very sensitive to user interface issues, and have some modest =
experience building good ones.
>>> I am not talking about user interface issues.  Just that for =
successful operation, we have cases when the user needs to be informed. =
And that is the case already with the draft as it is now. It will not =
have the intended effect if the users are not informed.
>>>>=20
>>>> I=92m also pretty firm that protocol standards must not deal, in =
any way, with user interfaces, other than, sometimes, providing some =
information in protocol messages that are not strictly speaking required =
for the proper implementation of the protocol.
>>> Right. The protocol can be executed on its own, but for many use =
cases we need to indicate to the users what the outcome was, otherwise =
we will leave them in uncertainty and they may act completely against =
what the protocol mechanism decided.=20
>>>>=20
>>>> When I read a statement that =93both sides should be aware of which =
language was negotiated=94, I interpret that as the implementation (that =
is, the code), and not the humans.  It means that the messages in the =
protocol must result in both ends of the protocol knowing the result.  =
We do use the word =93users=94 occasionally in protocol documents, and =
that=92s the term I expect to see when we mean the humans.=20
>>> Well. whatever was the intention with the sentence in the =
introduction, the users in many cases need to be informed and aware.
>>>>=20
>>>> The document does describe a mechanism where both ends of the =
negotiation know the result, and thus we fulfill the requirement with no =
further work.  User interfaces are free to present anything they want.  =
I can easily describe a scenario where they do not present the results =
of the protocol negotiation: we may have one interpreter who is =
interpreting English to ASL on video, and another one who is =
interpreting English to Spanish text.  The ASL interpreter doesn=92t =
doesn=92t need to know what is happening in the text change and the =
Spanish interpreter doesn=92t need to know what is happening in the ASL =
channel.
>>> Yes, it is possible to imagine cases when it is sufficient to =
indicate to the callee that there is an incoming call that they need to =
act on. In the case that the callee has indicated only one single =
language in one single humintlang-send attribute, then there is no =
question on how to respond to the call. The callee simply welcomes the =
caller in the only language specified.=20
>>>=20
>>> But we want other cases to work as well. As soon as the callee has =
indicated capabilities in two languages, it is essential to provide =
information about the outcome of the protocol negotiation to the callee. =
The simple case with a callee capable of both spoken and written English =
is such a case. We do not at all need to tell anything about the user =
interface, but we need to mention something about providing information =
to the user. =20
>>>=20
>>> And in order to have a clear outcome in most cases, instead of =
ambiguity, we need at least a notation for the most preferred language =
indication.
>>>=20
>>> How else would you be able to start the call in an appropriate way =
suiting the caller?
>>>=20
>>> So, the proposals below are still valid, but you might want to fine =
tune them to fit your view of how to indicate items to the user.
>>>=20
>>> /Gunnar
>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Thus I don=92t think any further work is needed.
>>>>=20
>>>> Brian
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Jul 20, 2016, at 10:23 AM, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m =
<gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>> =
wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Brian and all,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> We had an interesting discussion in the meeting yesterday about =
indications to the user.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I said that one intention is that the result of the language =
negotiation is provided to the users and that that is already stated in =
the draft.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> In the introduction, we have this sentence: "Both sides should be =
aware of which language was negotiated."
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I agree with this statement, and that it is often a requirement =
for a successful start of the call. It is true that the indications are =
also used for routing and selection of participants and user equipment, =
but also the users need to be informed. The answering party need to =
start the call by using the agreed preferred language in the agreed =
preferred modality, otherwise the call will start in confusion.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Imagine a call from a user preferring spoken Greek, ending up at a =
call center agent capable of English and Greek. If the agent starts with =
a greeting in English instead of Greek, the calling user will get unsure =
if Greek can be used, and the call will start in uncertainty or even be =
conducted in English that the caller does not feel confident in.=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> This is not user interface specification. It is as simple as the =
statement in the introduction : "Both sides should be aware of which =
language was negotiated."  The discussion went on saying that we do not =
specify user interfaces in IETF. And that is true, but many times we =
specify items where the user gets aware of the results of the protocol =
interaction. Examples can be call hold and release, picture size and =
orientation, remote camera movements, attended call transfer etc. So, we =
are in good company when we state that both sides are made aware of the =
outcome.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The requirement to keep the user aware of which language was =
negotiated is valid for the current scope of the draft as well as when =
we include preference across media and grouping. We can in fact not yet =
really fulfill that requirement within the current scope because we have =
not defined any way to differentiate preference between languages in =
different media. The outcome of the negotiation can still be undefined. =
We can with the current wording for example say that the caller prefers =
spoken English or written English, but not if there is any preference =
between these two providing awareness to the callee about how to start =
the call.=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> So, two conclusions:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> 1. We need to repeat the statement about bringing awareness at a =
more protruding position in the draft, and that is not a user interface =
specification.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I suggest to add a sentence last in 4:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> "Information on the accepted language is provided to the =
participants in the call."
>>>>>=20
>>>>> and a sentence last in 6.2:=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> "The caller and callee should be provided with information on the =
outcome of the negotiation. This information is intended to enable them =
to start the call in a preferred language."
>>>>>=20
>>>>> 2. We cannot avoid to specify preference between modalities. =
Leaving it out would leave the negotiation withundefined results in many =
cases and uncertainty about how to start the call.=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The caller may prefer to use spoken English but can accept to use =
written English, and want to express that so that no calls are missed. A =
callee with the same preferences get no clue to how to start the call =
from a negotiation resulting in that both spoken and written English are =
accepted without preference between them. A simple indication of the =
most preferred modality would solve this uncertainty in most cases.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I suggest to add an indication of most preferred language as a new =
section 6.4.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> 6.4 Most preferred language
>>>>>=20
>>>>> A mechanism is introduced that provides information on the most =
preferred language among all language indications in the session =
description. This is done in order to provide for a definite outcome of =
the negotiation of language in most cases, and thereby an opportunity =
for the call to start in a fruitful way.=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The notation for the most preferred language is a plus ('+') =
character added after the language tag in the value of the corresponding =
language attribute. The notation MAY be used independently on both =
communication directions. The order between this indication and the =
indication for advisory versus required is not relevant.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Background
>>>>>=20
>>>>> This discussion is in line with the requirement in 3GPP TS 22.228, =
section 7.5.2.  We have no clear obligations towards 3GPP, but It would =
be good if these requirements can be fulfilled without further =
standardisation.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> This is what is said in the 3GPP specification:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> 7.5.2=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Negotiation at IM session invocation <>
>>>>> It shall be possible for the capability negotiation to take place =
at the time of the IP multimedia session invocation. Refer to clause 7.3 =
for further details on capability negotiation on IP multimedia session =
invocation.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> A UE should support negotiation of the user's desired language(s) =
(as defined in IANA [29]) and modalities for spoken, signed and written =
languages.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The system should be able to negotiate the user's desired =
language(s) and modalities, per media stream and/or session, in order of =
preference.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> A service provider shall be able to pass language and modality =
information between the endpoints. With respect to the language and =
modality information, there are no other service provider actions =
required.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Regards
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Gunnar
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> --=20
>>>>> -----------------------------------------
>>>>> Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
>>>>> Omnitor
>>>>> gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> SLIM mailing list
>>>> SLIM@ietf.org <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>
>>>=20
>>> --=20
>>> -----------------------------------------
>>> Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
>>> Omnitor
>>> gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>
>>> +46 708 204 288
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> SLIM mailing list
>>> SLIM@ietf.org <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> SLIM mailing list
>> SLIM@ietf.org <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>
>=20
> --=20
> -----------------------------------------
> Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
> Omnitor
> gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>
> +46 708 204 288
> _______________________________________________
> SLIM mailing list
> SLIM@ietf.org <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>


--Apple-Mail=_86C22961-34A3-406E-8660-F0B99D5941D5
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=windows-1252

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">I believe we had a consensus call on not including per =
session preferences in this document. &nbsp;Chairs can correct me if I =
am misremembering or misinterpreting what happened.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Anyone can write a draft. &nbsp;If you =
want to propose a solution to that problem, go ahead, and write a draft. =
&nbsp;I would oppose adding that capability to this document.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I don=92t think we need =
to, or want to, specify any implementation advice with regard to user =
interfaces. I think =93provide information=85.to the callee=94 is a user =
interface issue.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Brian</div><div class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jul 20, 2016, at 6:11 PM, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se" =
class=3D"">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><p =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D"">Den 2016-07-20 kl. 16:58, skrev Brian Rosen:<br =
class=3D""></p><blockquote =
cite=3D"mid:68C9050A-DF70-4225-BE22-54FA2185E263@brianrosen.net" =
type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">We are not communicating :)<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Since the protocol =
mechanism described informs both ends of the result of the negotiation, =
no further text is needed to fulfill the requirement.</div><div =
class=3D"">You want to go beyond what the requirement states. =
&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think =
the statement =93<b class=3D"" style=3D"background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255); color: rgb(204, 0, 0);">As soon as the callee has indicated =
capabilities in two languages, it is essential to provide information =
about the outcome of the protocol negotiation to the callee</b>=94 is =
not always correct, and is a user interface issue, not a protocol issue. =
&nbsp;The protocol exchange provides all the results to both ends, and =
any implementation is free to show any or all of that information, in =
any form it wants, to the human. &nbsp;It is not appropriate for us to =
say what it should do; that is very implementation dependent.&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote><blockquote =
cite=3D"mid:68C9050A-DF70-4225-BE22-54FA2185E263@brianrosen.net" =
type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><div class=3D"">I specifically object to =
=93a notation for the most preferred language=94, which, strictly =
speaking, we have (order, per media). &nbsp;You want that per session, =
and I object to doing that. &nbsp;I strongly object to twisting =93both =
sides should be aware=85=94 into a requirement to transport a preference =
in language per session.</div></blockquote><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Why don't you want =
to solve the human problem to start a call in the most effective =
way.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">My view is that we work on a draft that can be used for =
negotiation of language in a real-time call. In many cases the =
successful application involves providing guidance to the users so they =
know how to start the call. We do not need to say when and how that =
shall be done, but we need to make sure that the involved endpoints can =
have sufficient information for provision to the user in case it is =
needed to get a successful start of the human language use in the =
session.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">The 3GPP =
requirement is for a preference per session and per media. We have some =
intentions to make the slim output usable to 3GPP, so why do you want to =
stop half-way?&nbsp; What makes the preference indication per session so =
hard to accept when that is what is needed to complete the negotiation =
to provide a defined outcome in a majority of cases?<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">Since we have the phrase about awareness in the =
introduction, my proposals under 1. below are not strictly needed, but =
clarifying.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">The issue under point 2. is much more important for =
successful starts of calls.&nbsp;&nbsp; If we do not solve it here, how =
do you then propose to solve it?</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">Gunnar</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><blockquote =
cite=3D"mid:68C9050A-DF70-4225-BE22-54FA2185E263@brianrosen.net" =
type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Brian</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jul =
20, 2016, at 4:40 PM, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m &lt;<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" =
href=3D"mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se" =
class=3D"">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
float: none; display: inline !important;">Den 2016-07-20 kl. 10:50, =
skrev Brian Rosen:</span><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><blockquote =
cite=3D"mid:3A3B5229-1CB5-431F-BB27-EA73606D2F88@brianrosen.net" =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">I=92m very sensitive to user =
interface issues, and have some modest experience building good =
ones.</blockquote><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;">I am not talking about user interface issues.&nbsp; Just =
that for successful operation, we have cases when the user needs to be =
informed. And that is the case already with the draft as it is now. It =
will not have the intended effect if the users are not =
informed.</span><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><blockquote =
cite=3D"mid:3A3B5229-1CB5-431F-BB27-EA73606D2F88@brianrosen.net" =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=92m also pretty firm that protocol =
standards must not deal, in any way, with user interfaces, other than, =
sometimes, providing some information in protocol messages that are not =
strictly speaking required for the proper implementation of the =
protocol.<br class=3D""></div></blockquote><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
float: none; display: inline !important;">Right. The protocol can be =
executed on its own, but for many use cases we need to indicate to the =
users what the outcome was, otherwise we will leave them in uncertainty =
and they may act completely against what the protocol mechanism =
decided.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><br =
class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><blockquote =
cite=3D"mid:3A3B5229-1CB5-431F-BB27-EA73606D2F88@brianrosen.net" =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">When I read a statement that =93both =
sides should be aware of which language was negotiated=94, I interpret =
that as the implementation (that is, the code), and not the humans. =
&nbsp;It means that the messages in the protocol must result in both =
ends of the protocol knowing the result. &nbsp;We do use the word =
=93users=94 occasionally in protocol documents, and that=92s the term I =
expect to see when we mean the humans.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;">Well. whatever was the intention with the sentence in the =
introduction, the users in many cases need to be informed and =
aware.</span><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><blockquote =
cite=3D"mid:3A3B5229-1CB5-431F-BB27-EA73606D2F88@brianrosen.net" =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The document does describe a mechanism =
where both ends of the negotiation know the result, and thus we fulfill =
the requirement with no further work. &nbsp;User interfaces are free to =
present anything they want. &nbsp;I can easily describe a scenario where =
they do not present the results of the protocol negotiation: we may have =
one interpreter who is interpreting English to ASL on video, and another =
one who is interpreting English to Spanish text. &nbsp;The ASL =
interpreter doesn=92t doesn=92t need to know what is happening in the =
text change and the Spanish interpreter doesn=92t need to know what is =
happening in the ASL channel.</div></blockquote><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
float: none; display: inline !important;">Yes, it is possible to imagine =
cases when it is sufficient to indicate to the callee that there is an =
incoming call that they need to act on. In the case that the callee has =
indicated<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><font =
class=3D"" color=3D"#cc0000" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><b class=3D"">only one single =
language in one single humintlang-send attribute</b></font><span =
class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255); float: none; display: inline !important;">, then there is no =
question on how to respond to the call. The callee simply welcomes the =
caller in the only language specified.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><br class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;">But we want other cases to work as well.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><font class=3D"" =
color=3D"#cc0000" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);"><b class=3D"">As soon as the callee has indicated =
capabilities in two languages, it is essential to provide information =
about the outcome of the protocol negotiation to the callee.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b></font><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
float: none; display: inline !important;">The simple case with a callee =
capable of both spoken and written English is such a case. We do not at =
all need to tell anything about the user interface, but we need to =
mention something about providing information to the user.&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><br class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;">And in order to have a clear outcome in most cases, instead =
of ambiguity, we need at least<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><b class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><font class=3D"" =
color=3D"#cc0000">a notation for the most preferred language =
indication</font></b><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;">.</span><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;">How else would you be able to start the call in an =
appropriate way suiting the caller?</span><br class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;">So, the proposals below are still valid, but you might want =
to fine tune them to fit your view of how to indicate items to the =
user.</span><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;">/Gunnar</span><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><blockquote =
cite=3D"mid:3A3B5229-1CB5-431F-BB27-EA73606D2F88@brianrosen.net" =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Thus I don=92t think any further work =
is needed.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Brian</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jul =
20, 2016, at 10:23 AM, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m &lt;<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" =
href=3D"mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se" =
class=3D"">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);">Brian and all,</p><p class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">We had an interesting discussion =
in the meeting yesterday about indications to the user.</p><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">I =
said that one intention is that the result of the language negotiation =
is provided to the users and that that is already stated in the =
draft.<br class=3D""></p><p class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">In the introduction, we have this =
sentence: "<span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;">Both sides<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D""></span>should be aware of which language was negotiated.<span =
class=3D"">"</span></span></p><p class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">I =
agree with this statement, and that it is often a requirement for a =
successful start of the call. It is true that the indications are also =
used for routing and selection of participants and user equipment, but =
also the users need to be informed. The answering party need to start =
the call by using the agreed preferred language in the agreed preferred =
modality, otherwise the call will start in =
confusion.</font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, =
sans-serif">Imagine a call from a user preferring spoken Greek, ending =
up at a call center agent capable of English and Greek. If the agent =
starts with a greeting in English instead of Greek, the calling user =
will get unsure if Greek can be used, and the call will start in =
uncertainty or even be conducted in English that the caller does not =
feel confident in.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">This =
is not user interface specification. It is as simple as the statement in =
the introduction :<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></font></span></span><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">"<span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;">Both =
sides<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D""></span>should be aware of which language was negotiated.<span =
class=3D"">"&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><font=
 class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif">The discussion went on =
saying that we do not specify user interfaces in IETF. And that is true, =
but many times we specify items where the user gets aware of the results =
of the protocol interaction. Examples can be call hold and release, =
picture size and orientation, remote camera movements, attended call =
transfer etc. So, we are in good company when we state that both sides =
are made aware of the outcome.<br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif">The requirement to =
keep the user aware of which language was negotiated is valid for the =
current scope of the draft as well as when we include preference across =
media and grouping. We can in fact not yet really fulfill that =
requirement within the current scope because we have not defined any way =
to differentiate preference between languages in different media. The =
outcome of the negotiation can still be undefined. We can with the =
current wording for example say that the caller prefers spoken English =
or written English, but not if there is any preference between these two =
providing awareness to the callee about how to start the call.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif">So, two =
conclusions:</font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif"><b class=3D"">1. We =
need to repeat the statement about bringing awareness at a more =
protruding position in the draft</b><b class=3D"">, and that is not a =
user interface specification.</b><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I suggest =
to add a sentence last in 4:<br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif">"Information on the =
accepted language is provided to the participants in the call."<br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif">and a sentence last in =
6.2:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif">"The caller and callee =
should be provided with information on the outcome of the negotiation. =
This information is intended to enable them to start the call in a =
preferred language."<br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif"><b class=3D"">2.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><b class=3D"">We =
cannot</b><b class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>avoid to<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><b =
class=3D"">specify</b><b class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>preference between =
modalities.</b><b class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>L</b><b class=3D"">eav</b><b =
class=3D"">ing it out would leave</b><b class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>the negotiation with</b><b =
class=3D"">undefined results in many cases and uncertainty about how to =
start the call.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif">The caller may prefer =
to use spoken English but can accept to use written English, and want to =
express that so that no calls are missed. A callee with the same =
preferences get no clue to how to start the call from a negotiation =
resulting in that both spoken and written English are accepted without =
preference between them. A simple indication of the most preferred =
modality would solve this uncertainty in most cases.<br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif">I suggest to add an =
indication of most preferred language as a new section =
6.4.</font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif">6.4 Most preferred =
language</font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif">A mechanism is =
introduced that provides information on the most preferred language =
among all language indications in the session description. This is =
do</font></span></span></font></span></span><span class=3D"" =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif"><span class=3D"" =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                            Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                                  Arial, sans-serif">ne =
in order to provide for a definite outcome of the negotiation of =
language in most cases, and thereby an opportunity for the call to start =
in a fruitful way.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span>=
</font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif"><span class=3D"" =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                            Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                                  Arial, sans-serif">The =
notation for the most preferred language is a plus ('+') character added =
after the language tag in the value of the corresponding language =
attribute. The notation MAY be used independently on both communication =
directions. The order between this indication and the indication for =
advisory versus required is not =
relevant.</font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></=
font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif"><span class=3D"" =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                            Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                                  Arial, sans-serif"><br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span>=
</font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><b class=3D""><span class=3D"" =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                        sans-serif"><span class=3D"" =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                              Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                                    Arial, =
sans-serif">Background</font></span></span></font></span></span></font></s=
pan></span></font></span></span></b></p><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif"><span class=3D"" =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                            Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                                  Arial, =
sans-serif">This discussion is in line with the requirement in 3GPP TS =
22.228, section 7.5.2.&nbsp; We have no clear obligations towards 3GPP, =
but It would be good if these requirements can be fulfilled without =
further =
standardisation.</font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></=
span></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">This is what is said in the 3GPP =
specification:<o:smarttagtype =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
name=3D"PersonName" class=3D""></o:smarttagtype><o:smarttagtype =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
name=3D"PersonName" class=3D""></o:smarttagtype></p><h3 class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 6pt 0cm 9pt 2cm; text-indent: -2cm; page-break-after: =
avoid; font-size: 14pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-weight: =
normal; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" name=3D"_Toc406715059" =
class=3D"">7.5.2<span class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>Negotiation at IM =
session invocation</a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></h3><o:smarttagtype =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
name=3D"PersonName" class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 9pt; font-size: 10pt;">It shall be possible for =
the capability negotiation to take place at the time of the IP =
multimedia session invocation. Refer to clause 7.3 for further details =
on capability negotiation on IP multimedia session invocation.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
9pt; font-size: 10pt;">A UE should support negotiation of the user's =
desired language(s) (as defined in<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span class=3D"" =
lang=3D"EN-US">IANA [29])<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>and modalities for =
spoken, signed and written languages.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 9pt; font-size: 10pt;">The =
system should be able to negotiate the user's desired language(s) and =
modalities, per media stream<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><font class=3D"" =
color=3D"#cc0000"><b class=3D"">and/or session, in order of =
preference</b></font>.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 9pt; font-size: 10pt;">A service provider shall =
be able to pass language and modality<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><st1:personname w:st=3D"on" =
class=3D"">info</st1:personname>rmation between the endpoints. With =
respect to the language and modality<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><st1:personname w:st=3D"on" =
class=3D"">info</st1:personname>rmation, there are no other service =
provider actions required.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p></o:smarttagtype><div =
class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif"><span class=3D"" =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                            Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                                  Arial, =
sans-serif">--------------------------------------------------</font></spa=
n></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></=
p><p class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font =
class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span class=3D"" =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif"><span class=3D"" =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                            Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                                  Arial, =
sans-serif">Regards</font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span=
></span></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                      sans-serif"><span class=3D"" =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                            Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                                  Arial, =
sans-serif">Gunnar<br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span>=
</font></span></span></p><div class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""></span></span><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><pre=
 class=3D"moz-signature" cols=3D"72" style=3D"font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);">--=20
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
Omnitor
<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" =
href=3D"mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a=
>
</pre></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""><fieldset class=3D"mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset><br =
class=3D""><pre class=3D"" =
wrap=3D"">_______________________________________________
SLIM mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" =
href=3D"mailto:SLIM@ietf.org">SLIM@ietf.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim">https://www.ietf.org/m=
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</pre></blockquote><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
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-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
Omnitor
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-----------------------------------------
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Subject: Re: [Slim] awareness to the user in the slim real-time draft
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Den 2016-07-20 kl. 18:18, skrev Brian Rosen:
> I believe we had a consensus call on not including per session 
> preferences in this document.  Chairs can correct me if I am 
> misremembering or misinterpreting what happened.
The discussion in the meeting indicated that you viewed the preference 
across media as something very different from the other indications, 
while it is not, and also needed to get a finite result of the 
negotiation. With that new knowledge about earlier miscommunication or 
whatever it was, I claim that we include it.

Gunnar
>
> Anyone can write a draft.  If you want to propose a solution to that 
> problem, go ahead, and write a draft.  I would oppose adding that 
> capability to this document.
>
> I don’t think we need to, or want to, specify any implementation 
> advice with regard to user interfaces. I think “provide 
> information….to the callee” is a user interface issue.
>
> Brian
>> On Jul 20, 2016, at 6:11 PM, Gunnar Hellström 
>> <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>> wrote:
>>
>> Den 2016-07-20 kl. 16:58, skrev Brian Rosen:
>>
>>> We are not communicating :)
>>>
>>> Since the protocol mechanism described informs both ends of the 
>>> result of the negotiation, no further text is needed to fulfill the 
>>> requirement.
>>> You want to go beyond what the requirement states.
>>>
>>> I think the statement “*As soon as the callee has indicated 
>>> capabilities in two languages, it is essential to provide 
>>> information about the outcome of the protocol negotiation to the 
>>> callee*” is not always correct, and is a user interface issue, not a 
>>> protocol issue.  The protocol exchange provides all the results to 
>>> both ends, and any implementation is free to show any or all of that 
>>> information, in any form it wants, to the human.  It is not 
>>> appropriate for us to say what it should do; that is very 
>>> implementation dependent.
>>> I specifically object to “a notation for the most preferred 
>>> language”, which, strictly speaking, we have (order, per media). 
>>>  You want that per session, and I object to doing that.  I strongly 
>>> object to twisting “both sides should be aware…” into a requirement 
>>> to transport a preference in language per session.
>>
>> Why don't you want to solve the human problem to start a call in the 
>> most effective way.
>> My view is that we work on a draft that can be used for negotiation 
>> of language in a real-time call. In many cases the successful 
>> application involves providing guidance to the users so they know how 
>> to start the call. We do not need to say when and how that shall be 
>> done, but we need to make sure that the involved endpoints can have 
>> sufficient information for provision to the user in case it is needed 
>> to get a successful start of the human language use in the session.
>>
>> The 3GPP requirement is for a preference per session and per media. 
>> We have some intentions to make the slim output usable to 3GPP, so 
>> why do you want to stop half-way? What makes the preference 
>> indication per session so hard to accept when that is what is needed 
>> to complete the negotiation to provide a defined outcome in a 
>> majority of cases?
>>
>> Since we have the phrase about awareness in the introduction, my 
>> proposals under 1. below are not strictly needed, but clarifying.
>> The issue under point 2. is much more important for successful starts 
>> of calls.   If we do not solve it here, how do you then propose to 
>> solve it?
>>
>> Gunnar
>>>
>>> Brian
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Jul 20, 2016, at 4:40 PM, Gunnar Hellström 
>>>> <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Den 2016-07-20 kl. 10:50, skrev Brian Rosen:
>>>>> I’m very sensitive to user interface issues, and have some modest 
>>>>> experience building good ones.
>>>> I am not talking about user interface issues.  Just that for 
>>>> successful operation, we have cases when the user needs to be 
>>>> informed. And that is the case already with the draft as it is now. 
>>>> It will not have the intended effect if the users are not informed.
>>>>>
>>>>> I’m also pretty firm that protocol standards must not deal, in any 
>>>>> way, with user interfaces, other than, sometimes, providing some 
>>>>> information in protocol messages that are not strictly speaking 
>>>>> required for the proper implementation of the protocol.
>>>> Right. The protocol can be executed on its own, but for many use 
>>>> cases we need to indicate to the users what the outcome was, 
>>>> otherwise we will leave them in uncertainty and they may act 
>>>> completely against what the protocol mechanism decided.
>>>>>
>>>>> When I read a statement that “both sides should be aware of which 
>>>>> language was negotiated”, I interpret that as the implementation 
>>>>> (that is, the code), and not the humans.  It means that the 
>>>>> messages in the protocol must result in both ends of the protocol 
>>>>> knowing the result.  We do use the word “users” occasionally in 
>>>>> protocol documents, and that’s the term I expect to see when we 
>>>>> mean the humans.
>>>> Well. whatever was the intention with the sentence in the 
>>>> introduction, the users in many cases need to be informed and aware.
>>>>>
>>>>> The document does describe a mechanism where both ends of the 
>>>>> negotiation know the result, and thus we fulfill the requirement 
>>>>> with no further work.  User interfaces are free to present 
>>>>> anything they want.  I can easily describe a scenario where they 
>>>>> do not present the results of the protocol negotiation: we may 
>>>>> have one interpreter who is interpreting English to ASL on video, 
>>>>> and another one who is interpreting English to Spanish text.  The 
>>>>> ASL interpreter doesn’t doesn’t need to know what is happening in 
>>>>> the text change and the Spanish interpreter doesn’t need to know 
>>>>> what is happening in the ASL channel.
>>>> Yes, it is possible to imagine cases when it is sufficient to 
>>>> indicate to the callee that there is an incoming call that they 
>>>> need to act on. In the case that the callee has indicated*only one 
>>>> single language in one single humintlang-send attribute*, then 
>>>> there is no question on how to respond to the call. The callee 
>>>> simply welcomes the caller in the only language specified.
>>>>
>>>> But we want other cases to work as well.*As soon as the callee has 
>>>> indicated capabilities in two languages, it is essential to provide 
>>>> information about the outcome of the protocol negotiation to the 
>>>> callee.*The simple case with a callee capable of both spoken and 
>>>> written English is such a case. We do not at all need to tell 
>>>> anything about the user interface, but we need to mention something 
>>>> about providing information to the user.
>>>>
>>>> And in order to have a clear outcome in most cases, instead of 
>>>> ambiguity, we need at least*a notation for the most preferred 
>>>> language indication*.
>>>>
>>>> How else would you be able to start the call in an appropriate way 
>>>> suiting the caller?
>>>>
>>>> So, the proposals below are still valid, but you might want to fine 
>>>> tune them to fit your view of how to indicate items to the user.
>>>>
>>>> /Gunnar
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thus I don’t think any further work is needed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Brian
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jul 20, 2016, at 10:23 AM, Gunnar Hellström 
>>>>>> <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se 
>>>>>> <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brian and all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We had an interesting discussion in the meeting yesterday about 
>>>>>> indications to the user.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I said that one intention is that the result of the language 
>>>>>> negotiation is provided to the users and that that is already 
>>>>>> stated in the draft.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the introduction, we have this sentence: "Both sidesshould be 
>>>>>> aware of which language was negotiated."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree with this statement, and that it is often a requirement 
>>>>>> for a successful start of the call. It is true that the 
>>>>>> indications are also used for routing and selection of 
>>>>>> participants and user equipment, but also the users need to be 
>>>>>> informed. The answering party need to start the call by using the 
>>>>>> agreed preferred language in the agreed preferred modality, 
>>>>>> otherwise the call will start in confusion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Imagine a call from a user preferring spoken Greek, ending up at 
>>>>>> a call center agent capable of English and Greek. If the agent 
>>>>>> starts with a greeting in English instead of Greek, the calling 
>>>>>> user will get unsure if Greek can be used, and the call will 
>>>>>> start in uncertainty or even be conducted in English that the 
>>>>>> caller does not feel confident in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is not user interface specification. It is as simple as the 
>>>>>> statement in the introduction :"Both sidesshould be aware of 
>>>>>> which language was negotiated." The discussion went on saying 
>>>>>> that we do not specify user interfaces in IETF. And that is true, 
>>>>>> but many times we specify items where the user gets aware of the 
>>>>>> results of the protocol interaction. Examples can be call hold 
>>>>>> and release, picture size and orientation, remote camera 
>>>>>> movements, attended call transfer etc. So, we are in good company 
>>>>>> when we state that both sides are made aware of the outcome.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The requirement to keep the user aware of which language was 
>>>>>> negotiated is valid for the current scope of the draft as well as 
>>>>>> when we include preference across media and grouping. We can in 
>>>>>> fact not yet really fulfill that requirement within the current 
>>>>>> scope because we have not defined any way to differentiate 
>>>>>> preference between languages in different media. The outcome of 
>>>>>> the negotiation can still be undefined. We can with the current 
>>>>>> wording for example say that the caller prefers spoken English or 
>>>>>> written English, but not if there is any preference between these 
>>>>>> two providing awareness to the callee about how to start the call.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, two conclusions:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *1. We need to repeat the statement about bringing awareness at a 
>>>>>> more protruding position in the draft**, and that is not a user 
>>>>>> interface specification.*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suggest to add a sentence last in 4:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Information on the accepted language is provided to the 
>>>>>> participants in the call."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and a sentence last in 6.2:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "The caller and callee should be provided with information on the 
>>>>>> outcome of the negotiation. This information is intended to 
>>>>>> enable them to start the call in a preferred language."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *2.**We cannot**avoid to**specify**preference between 
>>>>>> modalities.**L**eav**ing it out would leave**the negotiation 
>>>>>> with**undefined results in many cases and uncertainty about how 
>>>>>> to start the call.*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The caller may prefer to use spoken English but can accept to use 
>>>>>> written English, and want to express that so that no calls are 
>>>>>> missed. A callee with the same preferences get no clue to how to 
>>>>>> start the call from a negotiation resulting in that both spoken 
>>>>>> and written English are accepted without preference between them. 
>>>>>> A simple indication of the most preferred modality would solve 
>>>>>> this uncertainty in most cases.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suggest to add an indication of most preferred language as a 
>>>>>> new section 6.4.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 6.4 Most preferred language
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A mechanism is introduced that provides information on the most 
>>>>>> preferred language among all language indications in the session 
>>>>>> description. This is done in order to provide for a definite 
>>>>>> outcome of the negotiation of language in most cases, and thereby 
>>>>>> an opportunity for the call to start in a fruitful way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The notation for the most preferred language is a plus ('+') 
>>>>>> character added after the language tag in the value of the 
>>>>>> corresponding language attribute. The notation MAY be used 
>>>>>> independently on both communication directions. The order between 
>>>>>> this indication and the indication for advisory versus required 
>>>>>> is not relevant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Background*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This discussion is in line with the requirement in 3GPP TS 
>>>>>> 22.228, section 7.5.2.  We have no clear obligations towards 
>>>>>> 3GPP, but It would be good if these requirements can be fulfilled 
>>>>>> without further standardisation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is what is said in the 3GPP specification:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       7.5.2Negotiation at IM session invocation
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It shall be possible for the capability negotiation to take place 
>>>>>> at the time of the IP multimedia session invocation. Refer to 
>>>>>> clause 7.3 for further details on capability negotiation on IP 
>>>>>> multimedia session invocation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A UE should support negotiation of the user's desired language(s) 
>>>>>> (as defined inIANA [29])and modalities for spoken, signed and 
>>>>>> written languages.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The system should be able to negotiate the user's desired 
>>>>>> language(s) and modalities, per media stream*and/or session, in 
>>>>>> order of preference*.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A service provider shall be able to pass language and 
>>>>>> modalityinformation between the endpoints. With respect to the 
>>>>>> language and modalityinformation, there are no other service 
>>>>>> provider actions required.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gunnar
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> -----------------------------------------
>>>>>> Gunnar Hellström
>>>>>> Omnitor
>>>>>> gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> SLIM mailing list
>>>>> SLIM@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> -----------------------------------------
>>>> Gunnar Hellström
>>>> Omnitor
>>>> gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>>> +46 708 204 288
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> SLIM mailing list
>>>> SLIM@ietf.org <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> SLIM mailing list
>>> SLIM@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>>
>> -- 
>> -----------------------------------------
>> Gunnar Hellström
>> Omnitor
>> gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>> +46 708 204 288
>> _______________________________________________
>> SLIM mailing list
>> SLIM@ietf.org <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>

-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
+46 708 204 288


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    Den 2016-07-20 kl. 18:18, skrev Brian Rosen:<br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:61497BB0-BADE-41F5-B94A-70CFCACDEC5C@brianrosen.net"
      type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
        charset=windows-1252">
      I believe we had a consensus call on not including per session
      preferences in this document.  Chairs can correct me if I am
      misremembering or misinterpreting what happened.</blockquote>
    The discussion in the meeting indicated that you viewed the
    preference across media as something very different from the other
    indications, while it is not, and also needed to get a finite result
    of the negotiation. With that new knowledge about earlier
    miscommunication or whatever it was, I claim that we include it.<br>
    <br>
    Gunnar<br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:61497BB0-BADE-41F5-B94A-70CFCACDEC5C@brianrosen.net"
      type="cite">
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">Anyone can write a draft.  If you want to propose a
        solution to that problem, go ahead, and write a draft.  I would
        oppose adding that capability to this document.</div>
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">I don’t think we need to, or want to, specify any
        implementation advice with regard to user interfaces. I think
        “provide information….to the callee” is a user interface issue.</div>
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">Brian</div>
      <div class="">
        <div>
          <blockquote type="cite" class="">
            <div class="">On Jul 20, 2016, at 6:11 PM, Gunnar Hellström
              &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se" class="">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>&gt;
              wrote:</div>
            <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
            <div class="">
              <p style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">Den
                2016-07-20 kl. 16:58, skrev Brian Rosen:<br class="">
              </p>
              <blockquote
                cite="mid:68C9050A-DF70-4225-BE22-54FA2185E263@brianrosen.net"
                type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
                12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">We are
                not communicating :)
                <div class=""><br class="">
                </div>
                <div class="">Since the protocol mechanism described
                  informs both ends of the result of the negotiation, no
                  further text is needed to fulfill the requirement.</div>
                <div class="">You want to go beyond what the requirement
                  states.  </div>
                <div class=""><br class="">
                </div>
                <div class="">I think the statement “<b class=""
                    style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); color:
                    rgb(204, 0, 0);">As soon as the callee has indicated
                    capabilities in two languages, it is essential to
                    provide information about the outcome of the
                    protocol negotiation to the callee</b>” is not
                  always correct, and is a user interface issue, not a
                  protocol issue.  The protocol exchange provides all
                  the results to both ends, and any implementation is
                  free to show any or all of that information, in any
                  form it wants, to the human.  It is not appropriate
                  for us to say what it should do; that is very
                  implementation dependent. <span
                    class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
                </div>
              </blockquote>
              <blockquote
                cite="mid:68C9050A-DF70-4225-BE22-54FA2185E263@brianrosen.net"
                type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
                12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
                <div class="">I specifically object to “a notation for
                  the most preferred language”, which, strictly
                  speaking, we have (order, per media).  You want that
                  per session, and I object to doing that.  I strongly
                  object to twisting “both sides should be aware…” into
                  a requirement to transport a preference in language
                  per session.</div>
              </blockquote>
              <br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none;
                display: inline !important;" class="">Why don't you want
                to solve the human problem to start a call in the most
                effective way.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br
                style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none;
                display: inline !important;" class="">My view is that we
                work on a draft that can be used for negotiation of
                language in a real-time call. In many cases the
                successful application involves providing guidance to
                the users so they know how to start the call. We do not
                need to say when and how that shall be done, but we need
                to make sure that the involved endpoints can have
                sufficient information for provision to the user in case
                it is needed to get a successful start of the human
                language use in the session.</span><br
                style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none;
                display: inline !important;" class="">The 3GPP
                requirement is for a preference per session and per
                media. We have some intentions to make the slim output
                usable to 3GPP, so why do you want to stop half-way? 
                What makes the preference indication per session so hard
                to accept when that is what is needed to complete the
                negotiation to provide a defined outcome in a majority
                of cases?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br
                style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none;
                display: inline !important;" class="">Since we have the
                phrase about awareness in the introduction, my proposals
                under 1. below are not strictly needed, but clarifying.<span
                  class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br
                style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none;
                display: inline !important;" class="">The issue under
                point 2. is much more important for successful starts of
                calls.   If we do not solve it here, how do you then
                propose to solve it?</span><br style="font-family:
                Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
                letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
                start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
                white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color:
                rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none;
                display: inline !important;" class="">Gunnar</span><br
                style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <blockquote
                cite="mid:68C9050A-DF70-4225-BE22-54FA2185E263@brianrosen.net"
                type="cite" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
                12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
                <div class=""><br class="">
                </div>
                <div class="">Brian</div>
                <div class=""><br class="">
                </div>
                <div class=""><br class="">
                </div>
                <div class="">
                  <div class="">
                    <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                      <div class="">On Jul 20, 2016, at 4:40 PM, Gunnar
                        Hellström &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                          href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se"
                          class="">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>&gt;
                        wrote:</div>
                      <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
                      <div class=""><span class="" style="font-family:
                          Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style:
                          normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                          font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
                          orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent:
                          0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
                          normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float:
                          none; display: inline !important;">Den
                          2016-07-20 kl. 10:50, skrev Brian Rosen:</span><br
                          class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
                        <blockquote
                          cite="mid:3A3B5229-1CB5-431F-BB27-EA73606D2F88@brianrosen.net"
                          type="cite" class="" style="font-family:
                          Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style:
                          normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                          font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
                          orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent:
                          0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
                          normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">I’m
                          very sensitive to user interface issues, and
                          have some modest experience building good
                          ones.</blockquote>
                        <span class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float:
                          none; display: inline !important;">I am not
                          talking about user interface issues.  Just
                          that for successful operation, we have cases
                          when the user needs to be informed. And that
                          is the case already with the draft as it is
                          now. It will not have the intended effect if
                          the users are not informed.</span><br class=""
                          style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
                          12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
                          normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
                          normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
                          text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
                          white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                          word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
                          0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
                        <blockquote
                          cite="mid:3A3B5229-1CB5-431F-BB27-EA73606D2F88@brianrosen.net"
                          type="cite" class="" style="font-family:
                          Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style:
                          normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                          font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
                          orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent:
                          0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
                          normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
                          <div class=""><br class="">
                          </div>
                          <div class="">I’m also pretty firm that
                            protocol standards must not deal, in any
                            way, with user interfaces, other than,
                            sometimes, providing some information in
                            protocol messages that are not strictly
                            speaking required for the proper
                            implementation of the protocol.<br class="">
                          </div>
                        </blockquote>
                        <span class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float:
                          none; display: inline !important;">Right. The
                          protocol can be executed on its own, but for
                          many use cases we need to indicate to the
                          users what the outcome was, otherwise we will
                          leave them in uncertainty and they may act
                          completely against what the protocol mechanism
                          decided.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br
                          class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
                        <blockquote
                          cite="mid:3A3B5229-1CB5-431F-BB27-EA73606D2F88@brianrosen.net"
                          type="cite" class="" style="font-family:
                          Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style:
                          normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                          font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
                          orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent:
                          0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
                          normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
                          <div class=""><br class="">
                          </div>
                          <div class="">When I read a statement that
                            “both sides should be aware of which
                            language was negotiated”, I interpret that
                            as the implementation (that is, the code),
                            and not the humans.  It means that the
                            messages in the protocol must result in both
                            ends of the protocol knowing the result.  We
                            do use the word “users” occasionally in
                            protocol documents, and that’s the term I
                            expect to see when we mean the humans.<span
                              class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br
                              class="">
                          </div>
                        </blockquote>
                        <span class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float:
                          none; display: inline !important;">Well.
                          whatever was the intention with the sentence
                          in the introduction, the users in many cases
                          need to be informed and aware.</span><br
                          class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
                        <blockquote
                          cite="mid:3A3B5229-1CB5-431F-BB27-EA73606D2F88@brianrosen.net"
                          type="cite" class="" style="font-family:
                          Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style:
                          normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                          font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
                          orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent:
                          0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
                          normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
                          <div class=""><br class="">
                          </div>
                          <div class="">The document does describe a
                            mechanism where both ends of the negotiation
                            know the result, and thus we fulfill the
                            requirement with no further work.  User
                            interfaces are free to present anything they
                            want.  I can easily describe a scenario
                            where they do not present the results of the
                            protocol negotiation: we may have one
                            interpreter who is interpreting English to
                            ASL on video, and another one who is
                            interpreting English to Spanish text.  The
                            ASL interpreter doesn’t doesn’t need to know
                            what is happening in the text change and the
                            Spanish interpreter doesn’t need to know
                            what is happening in the ASL channel.</div>
                        </blockquote>
                        <span class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float:
                          none; display: inline !important;">Yes, it is
                          possible to imagine cases when it is
                          sufficient to indicate to the callee that
                          there is an incoming call that they need to
                          act on. In the case that the callee has
                          indicated<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><font
                          class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
                          color="#cc0000"><b class="">only one single
                            language in one single humintlang-send
                            attribute</b></font><span class=""
                          style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
                          12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
                          normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
                          normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
                          text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
                          white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                          word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
                          0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);
                          float: none; display: inline !important;">,
                          then there is no question on how to respond to
                          the call. The callee simply welcomes the
                          caller in the only language specified.<span
                            class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br
                          class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
                        <br class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
                        <span class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float:
                          none; display: inline !important;">But we want
                          other cases to work as well.<span
                            class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><font
                          class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
                          color="#cc0000"><b class="">As soon as the
                            callee has indicated capabilities in two
                            languages, it is essential to provide
                            information about the outcome of the
                            protocol negotiation to the callee.<span
                              class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></font><span
                          class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float:
                          none; display: inline !important;">The simple
                          case with a callee capable of both spoken and
                          written English is such a case. We do not at
                          all need to tell anything about the user
                          interface, but we need to mention something
                          about providing information to the user. <span
                            class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br
                          class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
                        <br class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
                        <span class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float:
                          none; display: inline !important;">And in
                          order to have a clear outcome in most cases,
                          instead of ambiguity, we need at least<span
                            class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b
                          class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; letter-spacing:
                          normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
                          text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
                          white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                          word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
                          0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><font
                            class="" color="#cc0000">a notation for the
                            most preferred language indication</font></b><span
                          class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float:
                          none; display: inline !important;">.</span><br
                          class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
                        <br class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
                        <span class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float:
                          none; display: inline !important;">How else
                          would you be able to start the call in an
                          appropriate way suiting the caller?</span><br
                          class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
                        <br class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
                        <span class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float:
                          none; display: inline !important;">So, the
                          proposals below are still valid, but you might
                          want to fine tune them to fit your view of how
                          to indicate items to the user.</span><br
                          class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
                        <br class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
                        <span class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float:
                          none; display: inline !important;">/Gunnar</span><br
                          class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
                        <br class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
                        <blockquote
                          cite="mid:3A3B5229-1CB5-431F-BB27-EA73606D2F88@brianrosen.net"
                          type="cite" class="" style="font-family:
                          Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style:
                          normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                          font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
                          orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent:
                          0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
                          normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
                          <div class=""><br class="">
                          </div>
                          <div class="">Thus I don’t think any further
                            work is needed.</div>
                          <div class=""><br class="">
                          </div>
                          <div class="">Brian</div>
                          <div class=""><br class="">
                            <div class="">
                              <blockquote type="cite" class="">
                                <div class="">On Jul 20, 2016, at 10:23
                                  AM, Gunnar Hellström &lt;<a
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se"
                                    class="">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>&gt;
                                  wrote:</div>
                                <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
                                <div class="">
                                  <p class="" style="font-family:
                                    Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                                    font-style: normal;
                                    font-variant-caps: normal;
                                    font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
                                    normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
                                    start; text-indent: 0px;
                                    text-transform: none; white-space:
                                    normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
                                    0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                                    background-color: rgb(255, 255,
                                    255);">Brian and all,</p>
                                  <p class="" style="font-family:
                                    Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                                    font-style: normal;
                                    font-variant-caps: normal;
                                    font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
                                    normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
                                    start; text-indent: 0px;
                                    text-transform: none; white-space:
                                    normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
                                    0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                                    background-color: rgb(255, 255,
                                    255);">We had an interesting
                                    discussion in the meeting yesterday
                                    about indications to the user.</p>
                                  <p class="" style="font-family:
                                    Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                                    font-style: normal;
                                    font-variant-caps: normal;
                                    font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
                                    normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
                                    start; text-indent: 0px;
                                    text-transform: none; white-space:
                                    normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
                                    0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                                    background-color: rgb(255, 255,
                                    255);">I said that one intention is
                                    that the result of the language
                                    negotiation is provided to the users
                                    and that that is already stated in
                                    the draft.<br class="">
                                  </p>
                                  <p class="" style="font-family:
                                    Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                                    font-style: normal;
                                    font-variant-caps: normal;
                                    font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
                                    normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
                                    start; text-indent: 0px;
                                    text-transform: none; white-space:
                                    normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
                                    0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                                    background-color: rgb(255, 255,
                                    255);">In the introduction, we have
                                    this sentence: "<span class=""
                                      style="font-size: 11pt;
                                      line-height:
                                      15.693333625793457px;"
                                      lang="EN-US">Both sides<span
                                        class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span
                                        class=""></span>should be aware
                                      of which language was negotiated.<span
                                        class="">"</span></span></p>
                                  <p class="" style="font-family:
                                    Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                                    font-style: normal;
                                    font-variant-caps: normal;
                                    font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
                                    normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
                                    start; text-indent: 0px;
                                    text-transform: none; white-space:
                                    normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
                                    0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                                    background-color: rgb(255, 255,
                                    255);"><span class=""
                                      style="font-size: 11pt;
                                      line-height:
                                      15.693333625793457px;"
                                      lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                          class="" face="Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif">I agree
                                          with this statement, and that
                                          it is often a requirement for
                                          a successful start of the
                                          call. It is true that the
                                          indications are also used for
                                          routing and selection of
                                          participants and user
                                          equipment, but also the users
                                          need to be informed. The
                                          answering party need to start
                                          the call by using the agreed
                                          preferred language in the
                                          agreed preferred modality,
                                          otherwise the call will start
                                          in confusion.</font></span></span></p>
                                  <p class="" style="font-family:
                                    Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                                    font-style: normal;
                                    font-variant-caps: normal;
                                    font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
                                    normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
                                    start; text-indent: 0px;
                                    text-transform: none; white-space:
                                    normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
                                    0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                                    background-color: rgb(255, 255,
                                    255);"><span class=""
                                      style="font-size: 11pt;
                                      line-height:
                                      15.693333625793457px;"
                                      lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                          class="" face="Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif">Imagine a
                                          call from a user preferring
                                          spoken Greek, ending up at a
                                          call center agent capable of
                                          English and Greek. If the
                                          agent starts with a greeting
                                          in English instead of Greek,
                                          the calling user will get
                                          unsure if Greek can be used,
                                          and the call will start in
                                          uncertainty or even be
                                          conducted in English that the
                                          caller does not feel confident
                                          in.<span
                                            class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br
                                            class="">
                                        </font></span></span></p>
                                  <p class="" style="font-family:
                                    Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                                    font-style: normal;
                                    font-variant-caps: normal;
                                    font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
                                    normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
                                    start; text-indent: 0px;
                                    text-transform: none; white-space:
                                    normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
                                    0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                                    background-color: rgb(255, 255,
                                    255);"><span class=""
                                      style="font-size: 11pt;
                                      line-height:
                                      15.693333625793457px;"
                                      lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                          class="" face="Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif">This is not
                                          user interface specification.
                                          It is as simple as the
                                          statement in the introduction
                                          :<span
                                            class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></font></span></span><span
                                      class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                                      line-height:
                                      15.693333625793457px;"
                                      lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                          class="" face="Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif">"<span
                                            class="" style="font-size:
                                            11pt; line-height:
                                            15.693333625793457px;"
                                            lang="EN-US">Both sides<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span class=""></span>should be
                                            aware of which language was
                                            negotiated.<span class="">" <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><font class="" face="Helvetica,
                                                Arial, sans-serif">The
                                                discussion went on
                                                saying that we do not
                                                specify user interfaces
                                                in IETF. And that is
                                                true, but many times we
                                                specify items where the
                                                user gets aware of the
                                                results of the protocol
                                                interaction. Examples
                                                can be call hold and
                                                release, picture size
                                                and orientation, remote
                                                camera movements,
                                                attended call transfer
                                                etc. So, we are in good
                                                company when we state
                                                that both sides are made
                                                aware of the outcome.<br
                                                  class="">
                                              </font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
                                  <p class="" style="font-family:
                                    Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                                    font-style: normal;
                                    font-variant-caps: normal;
                                    font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
                                    normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
                                    start; text-indent: 0px;
                                    text-transform: none; white-space:
                                    normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
                                    0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                                    background-color: rgb(255, 255,
                                    255);"><span class=""
                                      style="font-size: 11pt;
                                      line-height:
                                      15.693333625793457px;"
                                      lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                          class="" face="Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                            class="" style="font-size:
                                            11pt; line-height:
                                            15.693333625793457px;"
                                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                                class=""
                                                face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                                sans-serif">The
                                                requirement to keep the
                                                user aware of which
                                                language was negotiated
                                                is valid for the current
                                                scope of the draft as
                                                well as when we include
                                                preference across media
                                                and grouping. We can in
                                                fact not yet really
                                                fulfill that requirement
                                                within the current scope
                                                because we have not
                                                defined any way to
                                                differentiate preference
                                                between languages in
                                                different media. The
                                                outcome of the
                                                negotiation can still be
                                                undefined. We can with
                                                the current wording for
                                                example say that the
                                                caller prefers spoken
                                                English or written
                                                English, but not if
                                                there is any preference
                                                between these two
                                                providing awareness to
                                                the callee about how to
                                                start the call.<span
                                                  class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br
                                                  class="">
                                              </font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
                                  <p class="" style="font-family:
                                    Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                                    font-style: normal;
                                    font-variant-caps: normal;
                                    font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
                                    normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
                                    start; text-indent: 0px;
                                    text-transform: none; white-space:
                                    normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
                                    0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                                    background-color: rgb(255, 255,
                                    255);"><span class=""
                                      style="font-size: 11pt;
                                      line-height:
                                      15.693333625793457px;"
                                      lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                          class="" face="Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                            class="" style="font-size:
                                            11pt; line-height:
                                            15.693333625793457px;"
                                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                                class=""
                                                face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                                sans-serif">So, two
                                                conclusions:</font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
                                  <p class="" style="font-family:
                                    Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                                    font-style: normal;
                                    font-variant-caps: normal;
                                    font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
                                    normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
                                    start; text-indent: 0px;
                                    text-transform: none; white-space:
                                    normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
                                    0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                                    background-color: rgb(255, 255,
                                    255);"><span class=""
                                      style="font-size: 11pt;
                                      line-height:
                                      15.693333625793457px;"
                                      lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                          class="" face="Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                            class="" style="font-size:
                                            11pt; line-height:
                                            15.693333625793457px;"
                                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                                class=""
                                                face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                                sans-serif"><b class="">1.
                                                  We need to repeat the
                                                  statement about
                                                  bringing awareness at
                                                  a more protruding
                                                  position in the draft</b><b
                                                  class="">, and that is
                                                  not a user interface
                                                  specification.</b><br
                                                  class="">
                                                <br class="">
                                                I suggest to add a
                                                sentence last in 4:<br
                                                  class="">
                                              </font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
                                  <p class="" style="font-family:
                                    Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                                    font-style: normal;
                                    font-variant-caps: normal;
                                    font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
                                    normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
                                    start; text-indent: 0px;
                                    text-transform: none; white-space:
                                    normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
                                    0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                                    background-color: rgb(255, 255,
                                    255);"><span class=""
                                      style="font-size: 11pt;
                                      line-height:
                                      15.693333625793457px;"
                                      lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                          class="" face="Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                            class="" style="font-size:
                                            11pt; line-height:
                                            15.693333625793457px;"
                                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                                class=""
                                                face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                                sans-serif">"Information
                                                on the accepted language
                                                is provided to the
                                                participants in the
                                                call."<br class="">
                                              </font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
                                  <p class="" style="font-family:
                                    Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                                    font-style: normal;
                                    font-variant-caps: normal;
                                    font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
                                    normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
                                    start; text-indent: 0px;
                                    text-transform: none; white-space:
                                    normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
                                    0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                                    background-color: rgb(255, 255,
                                    255);"><span class=""
                                      style="font-size: 11pt;
                                      line-height:
                                      15.693333625793457px;"
                                      lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                          class="" face="Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                            class="" style="font-size:
                                            11pt; line-height:
                                            15.693333625793457px;"
                                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                                class=""
                                                face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                                sans-serif">and a
                                                sentence last in 6.2:<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
                                              </font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
                                  <p class="" style="font-family:
                                    Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                                    font-style: normal;
                                    font-variant-caps: normal;
                                    font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
                                    normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
                                    start; text-indent: 0px;
                                    text-transform: none; white-space:
                                    normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
                                    0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                                    background-color: rgb(255, 255,
                                    255);"><span class=""
                                      style="font-size: 11pt;
                                      line-height:
                                      15.693333625793457px;"
                                      lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                          class="" face="Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                            class="" style="font-size:
                                            11pt; line-height:
                                            15.693333625793457px;"
                                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                                class=""
                                                face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                                sans-serif">"The caller
                                                and callee should be
                                                provided with
                                                information on the
                                                outcome of the
                                                negotiation. This
                                                information is intended
                                                to enable them to start
                                                the call in a preferred
                                                language."<br class="">
                                              </font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
                                  <p class="" style="font-family:
                                    Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                                    font-style: normal;
                                    font-variant-caps: normal;
                                    font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
                                    normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
                                    start; text-indent: 0px;
                                    text-transform: none; white-space:
                                    normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
                                    0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                                    background-color: rgb(255, 255,
                                    255);"><span class=""
                                      style="font-size: 11pt;
                                      line-height:
                                      15.693333625793457px;"
                                      lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                          class="" face="Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                            class="" style="font-size:
                                            11pt; line-height:
                                            15.693333625793457px;"
                                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                                class=""
                                                face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                                sans-serif"><b class="">2.<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b><b class="">We cannot</b><b
                                                  class=""><span
                                                    class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>avoid
                                                  to<span
                                                    class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b><b
                                                  class="">specify</b><b
                                                  class=""><span
                                                    class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>preference
                                                  between modalities.</b><b
                                                  class=""><span
                                                    class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>L</b><b
                                                  class="">eav</b><b
                                                  class="">ing it out
                                                  would leave</b><b
                                                  class=""><span
                                                    class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>the
                                                  negotiation with</b><b
                                                  class="">undefined
                                                  results in many cases
                                                  and uncertainty about
                                                  how to start the call.<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b><br class="">
                                              </font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
                                  <p class="" style="font-family:
                                    Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                                    font-style: normal;
                                    font-variant-caps: normal;
                                    font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
                                    normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
                                    start; text-indent: 0px;
                                    text-transform: none; white-space:
                                    normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
                                    0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                                    background-color: rgb(255, 255,
                                    255);"><span class=""
                                      style="font-size: 11pt;
                                      line-height:
                                      15.693333625793457px;"
                                      lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                          class="" face="Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                            class="" style="font-size:
                                            11pt; line-height:
                                            15.693333625793457px;"
                                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                                class=""
                                                face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                                sans-serif">The caller
                                                may prefer to use spoken
                                                English but can accept
                                                to use written English,
                                                and want to express that
                                                so that no calls are
                                                missed. A callee with
                                                the same preferences get
                                                no clue to how to start
                                                the call from a
                                                negotiation resulting in
                                                that both spoken and
                                                written English are
                                                accepted without
                                                preference between them.
                                                A simple indication of
                                                the most preferred
                                                modality would solve
                                                this uncertainty in most
                                                cases.<br class="">
                                              </font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
                                  <p class="" style="font-family:
                                    Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                                    font-style: normal;
                                    font-variant-caps: normal;
                                    font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
                                    normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
                                    start; text-indent: 0px;
                                    text-transform: none; white-space:
                                    normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
                                    0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                                    background-color: rgb(255, 255,
                                    255);"><span class=""
                                      style="font-size: 11pt;
                                      line-height:
                                      15.693333625793457px;"
                                      lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                          class="" face="Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                            class="" style="font-size:
                                            11pt; line-height:
                                            15.693333625793457px;"
                                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                                class=""
                                                face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                                sans-serif">I suggest to
                                                add an indication of
                                                most preferred language
                                                as a new section 6.4.</font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
                                  <p class="" style="font-family:
                                    Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                                    font-style: normal;
                                    font-variant-caps: normal;
                                    font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
                                    normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
                                    start; text-indent: 0px;
                                    text-transform: none; white-space:
                                    normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
                                    0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                                    background-color: rgb(255, 255,
                                    255);"><span class=""
                                      style="font-size: 11pt;
                                      line-height:
                                      15.693333625793457px;"
                                      lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                          class="" face="Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                            class="" style="font-size:
                                            11pt; line-height:
                                            15.693333625793457px;"
                                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                                class=""
                                                face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                                sans-serif">6.4 Most
                                                preferred language</font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
                                  <p class="" style="font-family:
                                    Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                                    font-style: normal;
                                    font-variant-caps: normal;
                                    font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
                                    normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
                                    start; text-indent: 0px;
                                    text-transform: none; white-space:
                                    normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
                                    0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                                    background-color: rgb(255, 255,
                                    255);"><span class=""
                                      style="font-size: 11pt;
                                      line-height:
                                      15.693333625793457px;"
                                      lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                          class="" face="Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                            class="" style="font-size:
                                            11pt; line-height:
                                            15.693333625793457px;"
                                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                                class=""
                                                face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                                sans-serif">A mechanism
                                                is introduced that
                                                provides information on
                                                the most preferred
                                                language among all
                                                language indications in
                                                the session description.
                                                This is do</font></span></span></font></span></span><span
                                      class="" style="font-size: 11pt;
                                      line-height:
                                      15.693333625793457px;"
                                      lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                          class="" face="Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                            class="" style="font-size:
                                            11pt; line-height:
                                            15.693333625793457px;"
                                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                                class=""
                                                face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                                sans-serif"><span
                                                  class=""
                                                  style="font-size:
                                                  11pt; line-height:
                                                  15.693333625793457px;"
                                                  lang="EN-US"><span
                                                    class=""><font
                                                      class=""
                                                      face="Helvetica,
                                                      Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                                        class=""
                                                        style="font-size:
                                                        11pt;
                                                        line-height:
                                                        15.693333625793457px;"
                                                        lang="EN-US"><span
                                                          class=""><font
                                                          class=""
                                                          face="Helvetica,
                                                          Arial,
                                                          sans-serif">ne
                                                          in order to
                                                          provide for a
                                                          definite
                                                          outcome of the
                                                          negotiation of
                                                          language in
                                                          most cases,
                                                          and thereby an
                                                          opportunity
                                                          for the call
                                                          to start in a
                                                          fruitful way.<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
                                                          </font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
                                  <p class="" style="font-family:
                                    Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                                    font-style: normal;
                                    font-variant-caps: normal;
                                    font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
                                    normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
                                    start; text-indent: 0px;
                                    text-transform: none; white-space:
                                    normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
                                    0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                                    background-color: rgb(255, 255,
                                    255);"><span class=""
                                      style="font-size: 11pt;
                                      line-height:
                                      15.693333625793457px;"
                                      lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                          class="" face="Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                            class="" style="font-size:
                                            11pt; line-height:
                                            15.693333625793457px;"
                                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                                class=""
                                                face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                                sans-serif"><span
                                                  class=""
                                                  style="font-size:
                                                  11pt; line-height:
                                                  15.693333625793457px;"
                                                  lang="EN-US"><span
                                                    class=""><font
                                                      class=""
                                                      face="Helvetica,
                                                      Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                                        class=""
                                                        style="font-size:
                                                        11pt;
                                                        line-height:
                                                        15.693333625793457px;"
                                                        lang="EN-US"><span
                                                          class=""><font
                                                          class=""
                                                          face="Helvetica,
                                                          Arial,
                                                          sans-serif">The
                                                          notation for
                                                          the most
                                                          preferred
                                                          language is a
                                                          plus ('+')
                                                          character
                                                          added after
                                                          the language
                                                          tag in the
                                                          value of the
                                                          corresponding
                                                          language
                                                          attribute. The
                                                          notation MAY
                                                          be used
                                                          independently
                                                          on both
                                                          communication
                                                          directions.
                                                          The order
                                                          between this
                                                          indication and
                                                          the indication
                                                          for advisory
                                                          versus
                                                          required is
                                                          not relevant.</font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
                                  <p class="" style="font-family:
                                    Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                                    font-style: normal;
                                    font-variant-caps: normal;
                                    font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
                                    normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
                                    start; text-indent: 0px;
                                    text-transform: none; white-space:
                                    normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
                                    0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                                    background-color: rgb(255, 255,
                                    255);"><span class=""
                                      style="font-size: 11pt;
                                      line-height:
                                      15.693333625793457px;"
                                      lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                          class="" face="Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                            class="" style="font-size:
                                            11pt; line-height:
                                            15.693333625793457px;"
                                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                                class=""
                                                face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                                sans-serif"><span
                                                  class=""
                                                  style="font-size:
                                                  11pt; line-height:
                                                  15.693333625793457px;"
                                                  lang="EN-US"><span
                                                    class=""><font
                                                      class=""
                                                      face="Helvetica,
                                                      Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                                        class=""
                                                        style="font-size:
                                                        11pt;
                                                        line-height:
                                                        15.693333625793457px;"
                                                        lang="EN-US"><span
                                                          class=""><font
                                                          class=""
                                                          face="Helvetica,
                                                          Arial,
                                                          sans-serif"><br
                                                          class="">
                                                          </font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
                                  <p class="" style="font-family:
                                    Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                                    font-style: normal;
                                    font-variant-caps: normal;
                                    font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
                                    normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
                                    start; text-indent: 0px;
                                    text-transform: none; white-space:
                                    normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
                                    0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                                    background-color: rgb(255, 255,
                                    255);"><b class=""><span class=""
                                        style="font-size: 11pt;
                                        line-height:
                                        15.693333625793457px;"
                                        lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                            class="" face="Helvetica,
                                            Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                              class="" style="font-size:
                                              11pt; line-height:
                                              15.693333625793457px;"
                                              lang="EN-US"><span
                                                class=""><font class=""
                                                  face="Helvetica,
                                                  Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                                    class=""
                                                    style="font-size:
                                                    11pt; line-height:
                                                    15.693333625793457px;"
                                                    lang="EN-US"><span
                                                      class=""><font
                                                        class=""
                                                        face="Helvetica,
                                                        Arial,
                                                        sans-serif"><span
                                                          class=""
                                                          style="font-size:
                                                          11pt;
                                                          line-height:
                                                          15.693333625793457px;"
                                                          lang="EN-US"><span
                                                          class=""><font
                                                          class=""
                                                          face="Helvetica,
                                                          Arial,
                                                          sans-serif">Background</font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></b></p>
                                  <p class="" style="font-family:
                                    Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                                    font-style: normal;
                                    font-variant-caps: normal;
                                    font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
                                    normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
                                    start; text-indent: 0px;
                                    text-transform: none; white-space:
                                    normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
                                    0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                                    background-color: rgb(255, 255,
                                    255);"><span class=""
                                      style="font-size: 11pt;
                                      line-height:
                                      15.693333625793457px;"
                                      lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                          class="" face="Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                            class="" style="font-size:
                                            11pt; line-height:
                                            15.693333625793457px;"
                                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                                class=""
                                                face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                                sans-serif"><span
                                                  class=""
                                                  style="font-size:
                                                  11pt; line-height:
                                                  15.693333625793457px;"
                                                  lang="EN-US"><span
                                                    class=""><font
                                                      class=""
                                                      face="Helvetica,
                                                      Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                                        class=""
                                                        style="font-size:
                                                        11pt;
                                                        line-height:
                                                        15.693333625793457px;"
                                                        lang="EN-US"><span
                                                          class=""><font
                                                          class=""
                                                          face="Helvetica,
                                                          Arial,
                                                          sans-serif">This
                                                          discussion is
                                                          in line with
                                                          the
                                                          requirement in
                                                          3GPP TS
                                                          22.228,
                                                          section
                                                          7.5.2.  We
                                                          have no clear
                                                          obligations
                                                          towards 3GPP,
                                                          but It would
                                                          be good if
                                                          these
                                                          requirements
                                                          can be
                                                          fulfilled
                                                          without
                                                          further
                                                          standardisation.</font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
                                  <p class="" style="font-family:
                                    Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                                    font-style: normal;
                                    font-variant-caps: normal;
                                    font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
                                    normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
                                    start; text-indent: 0px;
                                    text-transform: none; white-space:
                                    normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
                                    0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                                    background-color: rgb(255, 255,
                                    255);">This is what is said in the
                                    3GPP specification:<o:smarttagtype
                                      namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
                                      name="PersonName" class=""></o:smarttagtype><o:smarttagtype
namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
                                      name="PersonName" class=""></o:smarttagtype></p>
                                  <h3 class="" style="margin: 6pt 0cm
                                    9pt 2cm; text-indent: -2cm;
                                    page-break-after: avoid; font-size:
                                    14pt; font-family: Arial,
                                    sans-serif; font-weight: normal;
                                    font-style: normal;
                                    font-variant-caps: normal;
                                    letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                                    auto; text-align: start;
                                    text-transform: none; white-space:
                                    normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
                                    0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                                    background-color: rgb(255, 255,
                                    255);"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                      name="_Toc406715059" class="">7.5.2<span
                                        class="">      <span
                                          class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Negotiation
                                      at IM session invocation</a><o:p
                                      class=""></o:p></h3>
                                  <o:smarttagtype
                                    namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
                                    name="PersonName" class=""
                                    style="font-family: Helvetica;
                                    font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                                    font-variant-caps: normal;
                                    font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
                                    normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
                                    start; text-indent: 0px;
                                    text-transform: none; white-space:
                                    normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
                                    0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                                    background-color: rgb(255, 255,
                                    255);">
                                    <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:
                                      0cm 0cm 9pt; font-size: 10pt;">It
                                      shall be possible for the
                                      capability negotiation to take
                                      place at the time of the IP
                                      multimedia session invocation.
                                      Refer to clause 7.3 for further
                                      details on capability negotiation
                                      on IP multimedia session
                                      invocation.<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:
                                      0cm 0cm 9pt; font-size: 10pt;">A
                                      UE should support negotiation of
                                      the user's desired language(s) (as
                                      defined in<span
                                        class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span
                                        class="" lang="EN-US">IANA [29])<span
                                          class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>and
                                      modalities for spoken, signed and
                                      written languages.<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:
                                      0cm 0cm 9pt; font-size: 10pt;">The
                                      system should be able to negotiate
                                      the user's desired language(s) and
                                      modalities, per media stream<span
                                        class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><font
                                        class="" color="#cc0000"><b
                                          class="">and/or session, in
                                          order of preference</b></font>.<o:p
                                        class=""></o:p></p>
                                    <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:
                                      0cm 0cm 9pt; font-size: 10pt;">A
                                      service provider shall be able to
                                      pass language and modality<span
                                        class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><st1:personname
                                        w:st="on" class="">info</st1:personname>rmation
                                      between the endpoints. With
                                      respect to the language and
                                      modality<span
                                        class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><st1:personname
                                        w:st="on" class="">info</st1:personname>rmation,
                                      there are no other service
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                                  </o:smarttagtype>
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                                      class="webkit-block-placeholder">
                                  </div>
                                  <p class="" style="font-family:
                                    Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                                    font-style: normal;
                                    font-variant-caps: normal;
                                    font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
                                    normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
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                                    text-transform: none; white-space:
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                                    0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                                    background-color: rgb(255, 255,
                                    255);"><span class=""
                                      style="font-size: 11pt;
                                      line-height:
                                      15.693333625793457px;"
                                      lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                          class="" face="Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                            class="" style="font-size:
                                            11pt; line-height:
                                            15.693333625793457px;"
                                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
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                                                face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                                sans-serif"><span
                                                  class=""
                                                  style="font-size:
                                                  11pt; line-height:
                                                  15.693333625793457px;"
                                                  lang="EN-US"><span
                                                    class=""><font
                                                      class=""
                                                      face="Helvetica,
                                                      Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                                        class=""
                                                        style="font-size:
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                                                        lang="EN-US"><span
                                                          class=""><font
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                                                          face="Helvetica,
                                                          Arial,
                                                          sans-serif">--------------------------------------------------</font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
                                  <p class="" style="font-family:
                                    Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                                    font-style: normal;
                                    font-variant-caps: normal;
                                    font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
                                    normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
                                    start; text-indent: 0px;
                                    text-transform: none; white-space:
                                    normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
                                    0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                                    background-color: rgb(255, 255,
                                    255);"><span class=""
                                      style="font-size: 11pt;
                                      line-height:
                                      15.693333625793457px;"
                                      lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                          class="" face="Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                            class="" style="font-size:
                                            11pt; line-height:
                                            15.693333625793457px;"
                                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                                class=""
                                                face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                                sans-serif"><span
                                                  class=""
                                                  style="font-size:
                                                  11pt; line-height:
                                                  15.693333625793457px;"
                                                  lang="EN-US"><span
                                                    class=""><font
                                                      class=""
                                                      face="Helvetica,
                                                      Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                                        class=""
                                                        style="font-size:
                                                        11pt;
                                                        line-height:
                                                        15.693333625793457px;"
                                                        lang="EN-US"><span
                                                          class=""><font
                                                          class=""
                                                          face="Helvetica,
                                                          Arial,
                                                          sans-serif">Regards</font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
                                  <p class="" style="font-family:
                                    Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                                    font-style: normal;
                                    font-variant-caps: normal;
                                    font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
                                    normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
                                    start; text-indent: 0px;
                                    text-transform: none; white-space:
                                    normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
                                    0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                                    background-color: rgb(255, 255,
                                    255);"><span class=""
                                      style="font-size: 11pt;
                                      line-height:
                                      15.693333625793457px;"
                                      lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                          class="" face="Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                            class="" style="font-size:
                                            11pt; line-height:
                                            15.693333625793457px;"
                                            lang="EN-US"><span class=""><font
                                                class=""
                                                face="Helvetica, Arial,
                                                sans-serif"><span
                                                  class=""
                                                  style="font-size:
                                                  11pt; line-height:
                                                  15.693333625793457px;"
                                                  lang="EN-US"><span
                                                    class=""><font
                                                      class=""
                                                      face="Helvetica,
                                                      Arial, sans-serif"><span
                                                        class=""
                                                        style="font-size:
                                                        11pt;
                                                        line-height:
                                                        15.693333625793457px;"
                                                        lang="EN-US"><span
                                                          class=""><font
                                                          class=""
                                                          face="Helvetica,
                                                          Arial,
                                                          sans-serif">Gunnar<br
                                                          class="">
                                                          </font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
                                  <div class="" style="font-family:
                                    Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                                    font-style: normal;
                                    font-variant-caps: normal;
                                    font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
                                    normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
                                    start; text-indent: 0px;
                                    text-transform: none; white-space:
                                    normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
                                    0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                                    background-color: rgb(255, 255,
                                    255);"><span class=""
                                      style="font-size: 11pt;
                                      line-height:
                                      15.693333625793457px;"
                                      lang="EN-US"><span class=""></span></span><br
                                      class="webkit-block-placeholder">
                                  </div>
                                  <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72" style="font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>
</pre>
                                </div>
                              </blockquote>
                            </div>
                            <br class="">
                          </div>
                          <br class="">
                          <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
                          <br class="">
                          <pre class="" wrap="">_______________________________________________
SLIM mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:SLIM@ietf.org">SLIM@ietf.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a>
</pre>
                        </blockquote>
                        <br class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
                        <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72" style="font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>
+46 708 204 288</pre>
                        <span class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float:
                          none; display: inline !important;">_______________________________________________</span><br
                          class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
                        <span class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float:
                          none; display: inline !important;">SLIM
                          mailing list</span><br class=""
                          style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
                          12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
                          normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
                          normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
                          text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
                          white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                          word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
                          0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
                        <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                          href="mailto:SLIM@ietf.org" class=""
                          style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
                          12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
                          normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
                          normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
                          text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
                          white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                          word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
                          0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">SLIM@ietf.org</a><br
                          class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
                        <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                          href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim"
                          class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a><br
                          class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
                          font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
                          font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
                          normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto;
                          text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                          text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
                          widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
                          -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                          background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
                      </div>
                    </blockquote>
                  </div>
                  <br class="">
                </div>
                <br class="">
                <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
                <br class="">
                <pre class="" wrap="">_______________________________________________
SLIM mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:SLIM@ietf.org">SLIM@ietf.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a>
</pre>
              </blockquote>
              <br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72" style="font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>
+46 708 204 288</pre>
              <span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none;
                display: inline !important;" class="">_______________________________________________</span><br
                style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none;
                display: inline !important;" class="">SLIM mailing list</span><br
                style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:SLIM@ietf.org"
                style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">SLIM@ietf.org</a><br
                style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
              <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim"
                style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a><br
                style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;
                font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
                font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
                auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
            </div>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br class="">
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>
+46 708 204 288</pre>
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To: =?utf-8?Q?Gunnar_Hellstr=C3=B6m?= <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/slim/uyZtzL7jx-Jq57aBNPs_QJZrTUA>
Cc: slim@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Slim] awareness to the user in the slim real-time draft
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On Jul 20, 2016, at 6:11 PM, Gunnar Hellstr=C3=B6m <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor=
.se> wrote:
>=20
> Why don't you want to solve the human problem to start a call in the most e=
ffective way.=20

[BA] As stated at the meeting, the major question is in what layer this func=
tionality belongs.

In several IETF WGs, including CLUE and now WEBRTC, the decision has been ma=
de to limit the complexity of the SDP O/A negotiation to the bare minimum ne=
eded to bring the call up. =46rom there, the application can add functionali=
ty. This approach "optimizes for the common case",  limits the difficulty in=
 implementing the basic required SDP and makes it more likely that it will i=
nteroperate.

AFAICT, the basic SDP functionality in the draft appears to be enough to ena=
ble an application to handle media preference on its own.=20

As an example, I believe that every use case can be supported within a web a=
pplication using a modified SIP library without any SDP additions beyond wha=
t we already have defined.

Yes, the application would need to deal with media preferences but most unif=
ied communications applications support multiple modes and need to handle de=
cisions on media usage already (camera on/off, mute, etc.) Adding complexity=
 to the SDP parser might actually make it harder for the application, not ea=
sier.





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Subject: Re: [Slim] [slim] #1 (use-cases): Test ticket
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Success!

> On Jul 19, 2016, at 11:32 AM, slim issue tracker <trac+slim@tools.ietf.org=
> wrote:
>=20
> #1: Test ticket
>=20
> Test ticket #1
>=20
> --=20
> --------------------------------+----------------------------
> Reporter:  nrooney@gsma.com    |      Owner:  Natasha Rooney
>     Type:  task                |     Status:  new
> Priority:  trivial             |  Milestone:  milestone1
> Component:  use-cases           |    Version:  1.0
> Severity:  Active WG Document  |   Keywords:
> --------------------------------+----------------------------
>=20
> Ticket URL: <https://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/trac/ticket/1>
> slim <https://tools.ietf.org/slim/>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> SLIM mailing list
> SLIM@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim


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From: Brian Rosen <br@brianrosen.net>
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Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 19:01:29 +0200
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To: =?utf-8?Q?Gunnar_Hellstr=C3=B6m?= <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>
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Cc: slim@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Slim] awareness to the user in the slim real-time draft
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I do not believe that is the case. =20

I think I=92ve represented my point of view sufficiently clearly, and I =
don=92t have anything to add.  I don=92t want more mechanism than the =
current draft provides.

In the absence of any really new information, I think I=92m done with =
this thread.

Brian

> On Jul 20, 2016, at 6:39 PM, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m =
<gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se> wrote:
>=20
> Den 2016-07-20 kl. 18:18, skrev Brian Rosen:
>> I believe we had a consensus call on not including per session =
preferences in this document.  Chairs can correct me if I am =
misremembering or misinterpreting what happened.
> The discussion in the meeting indicated that you viewed the preference =
across media as something very different from the other indications, =
while it is not, and also needed to get a finite result of the =
negotiation. With that new knowledge about earlier miscommunication or =
whatever it was, I claim that we include it.
>=20
> Gunnar
>>=20
>> Anyone can write a draft.  If you want to propose a solution to that =
problem, go ahead, and write a draft.  I would oppose adding that =
capability to this document.
>>=20
>> I don=92t think we need to, or want to, specify any implementation =
advice with regard to user interfaces. I think =93provide =
information=85.to the callee=94 is a user interface issue.
>>=20
>> Brian
>>> On Jul 20, 2016, at 6:11 PM, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m =
<gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>> =
wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Den 2016-07-20 kl. 16:58, skrev Brian Rosen:
>>>=20
>>>> We are not communicating :)
>>>>=20
>>>> Since the protocol mechanism described informs both ends of the =
result of the negotiation, no further text is needed to fulfill the =
requirement.
>>>> You want to go beyond what the requirement states. =20
>>>>=20
>>>> I think the statement =93As soon as the callee has indicated =
capabilities in two languages, it is essential to provide information =
about the outcome of the protocol negotiation to the callee=94 is not =
always correct, and is a user interface issue, not a protocol issue.  =
The protocol exchange provides all the results to both ends, and any =
implementation is free to show any or all of that information, in any =
form it wants, to the human.  It is not appropriate for us to say what =
it should do; that is very implementation dependent. =20
>>>> I specifically object to =93a notation for the most preferred =
language=94, which, strictly speaking, we have (order, per media).  You =
want that per session, and I object to doing that.  I strongly object to =
twisting =93both sides should be aware=85=94 into a requirement to =
transport a preference in language per session.
>>>=20
>>> Why don't you want to solve the human problem to start a call in the =
most effective way.=20
>>> My view is that we work on a draft that can be used for negotiation =
of language in a real-time call. In many cases the successful =
application involves providing guidance to the users so they know how to =
start the call. We do not need to say when and how that shall be done, =
but we need to make sure that the involved endpoints can have sufficient =
information for provision to the user in case it is needed to get a =
successful start of the human language use in the session.
>>>=20
>>> The 3GPP requirement is for a preference per session and per media. =
We have some intentions to make the slim output usable to 3GPP, so why =
do you want to stop half-way?  What makes the preference indication per =
session so hard to accept when that is what is needed to complete the =
negotiation to provide a defined outcome in a majority of cases?=20
>>>=20
>>> Since we have the phrase about awareness in the introduction, my =
proposals under 1. below are not strictly needed, but clarifying.=20
>>> The issue under point 2. is much more important for successful =
starts of calls.   If we do not solve it here, how do you then propose =
to solve it?
>>>=20
>>> Gunnar
>>>>=20
>>>> Brian
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Jul 20, 2016, at 4:40 PM, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m =
<gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>> =
wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Den 2016-07-20 kl. 10:50, skrev Brian Rosen:
>>>>>> I=92m very sensitive to user interface issues, and have some =
modest experience building good ones.
>>>>> I am not talking about user interface issues.  Just that for =
successful operation, we have cases when the user needs to be informed. =
And that is the case already with the draft as it is now. It will not =
have the intended effect if the users are not informed.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I=92m also pretty firm that protocol standards must not deal, in =
any way, with user interfaces, other than, sometimes, providing some =
information in protocol messages that are not strictly speaking required =
for the proper implementation of the protocol.
>>>>> Right. The protocol can be executed on its own, but for many use =
cases we need to indicate to the users what the outcome was, otherwise =
we will leave them in uncertainty and they may act completely against =
what the protocol mechanism decided.=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> When I read a statement that =93both sides should be aware of =
which language was negotiated=94, I interpret that as the implementation =
(that is, the code), and not the humans.  It means that the messages in =
the protocol must result in both ends of the protocol knowing the =
result.  We do use the word =93users=94 occasionally in protocol =
documents, and that=92s the term I expect to see when we mean the =
humans.=20
>>>>> Well. whatever was the intention with the sentence in the =
introduction, the users in many cases need to be informed and aware.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> The document does describe a mechanism where both ends of the =
negotiation know the result, and thus we fulfill the requirement with no =
further work.  User interfaces are free to present anything they want.  =
I can easily describe a scenario where they do not present the results =
of the protocol negotiation: we may have one interpreter who is =
interpreting English to ASL on video, and another one who is =
interpreting English to Spanish text.  The ASL interpreter doesn=92t =
doesn=92t need to know what is happening in the text change and the =
Spanish interpreter doesn=92t need to know what is happening in the ASL =
channel.
>>>>> Yes, it is possible to imagine cases when it is sufficient to =
indicate to the callee that there is an incoming call that they need to =
act on. In the case that the callee has indicated only one single =
language in one single humintlang-send attribute, then there is no =
question on how to respond to the call. The callee simply welcomes the =
caller in the only language specified.=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> But we want other cases to work as well. As soon as the callee has =
indicated capabilities in two languages, it is essential to provide =
information about the outcome of the protocol negotiation to the callee. =
The simple case with a callee capable of both spoken and written English =
is such a case. We do not at all need to tell anything about the user =
interface, but we need to mention something about providing information =
to the user. =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> And in order to have a clear outcome in most cases, instead of =
ambiguity, we need at least a notation for the most preferred language =
indication.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> How else would you be able to start the call in an appropriate way =
suiting the caller?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> So, the proposals below are still valid, but you might want to =
fine tune them to fit your view of how to indicate items to the user.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> /Gunnar
>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Thus I don=92t think any further work is needed.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Brian
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> On Jul 20, 2016, at 10:23 AM, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m =
<gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>> =
wrote:
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Brian and all,
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> We had an interesting discussion in the meeting yesterday about =
indications to the user.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> I said that one intention is that the result of the language =
negotiation is provided to the users and that that is already stated in =
the draft.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> In the introduction, we have this sentence: "Both sides should =
be aware of which language was negotiated."
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> I agree with this statement, and that it is often a requirement =
for a successful start of the call. It is true that the indications are =
also used for routing and selection of participants and user equipment, =
but also the users need to be informed. The answering party need to =
start the call by using the agreed preferred language in the agreed =
preferred modality, otherwise the call will start in confusion.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Imagine a call from a user preferring spoken Greek, ending up at =
a call center agent capable of English and Greek. If the agent starts =
with a greeting in English instead of Greek, the calling user will get =
unsure if Greek can be used, and the call will start in uncertainty or =
even be conducted in English that the caller does not feel confident in.=20=

>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> This is not user interface specification. It is as simple as the =
statement in the introduction : "Both sides should be aware of which =
language was negotiated."  The discussion went on saying that we do not =
specify user interfaces in IETF. And that is true, but many times we =
specify items where the user gets aware of the results of the protocol =
interaction. Examples can be call hold and release, picture size and =
orientation, remote camera movements, attended call transfer etc. So, we =
are in good company when we state that both sides are made aware of the =
outcome.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> The requirement to keep the user aware of which language was =
negotiated is valid for the current scope of the draft as well as when =
we include preference across media and grouping. We can in fact not yet =
really fulfill that requirement within the current scope because we have =
not defined any way to differentiate preference between languages in =
different media. The outcome of the negotiation can still be undefined. =
We can with the current wording for example say that the caller prefers =
spoken English or written English, but not if there is any preference =
between these two providing awareness to the callee about how to start =
the call.=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> So, two conclusions:
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> 1. We need to repeat the statement about bringing awareness at a =
more protruding position in the draft, and that is not a user interface =
specification.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> I suggest to add a sentence last in 4:
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> "Information on the accepted language is provided to the =
participants in the call."
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> and a sentence last in 6.2:=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> "The caller and callee should be provided with information on =
the outcome of the negotiation. This information is intended to enable =
them to start the call in a preferred language."
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> 2. We cannot avoid to specify preference between modalities. =
Leaving it out would leave the negotiation withundefined results in many =
cases and uncertainty about how to start the call.=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> The caller may prefer to use spoken English but can accept to =
use written English, and want to express that so that no calls are =
missed. A callee with the same preferences get no clue to how to start =
the call from a negotiation resulting in that both spoken and written =
English are accepted without preference between them. A simple =
indication of the most preferred modality would solve this uncertainty =
in most cases.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> I suggest to add an indication of most preferred language as a =
new section 6.4.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> 6.4 Most preferred language
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> A mechanism is introduced that provides information on the most =
preferred language among all language indications in the session =
description. This is done in order to provide for a definite outcome of =
the negotiation of language in most cases, and thereby an opportunity =
for the call to start in a fruitful way.=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> The notation for the most preferred language is a plus ('+') =
character added after the language tag in the value of the corresponding =
language attribute. The notation MAY be used independently on both =
communication directions. The order between this indication and the =
indication for advisory versus required is not relevant.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Background
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> This discussion is in line with the requirement in 3GPP TS =
22.228, section 7.5.2.  We have no clear obligations towards 3GPP, but =
It would be good if these requirements can be fulfilled without further =
standardisation.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> This is what is said in the 3GPP specification:
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> 7.5.2=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Negotiation at IM session invocation =
<>
>>>>>>> It shall be possible for the capability negotiation to take =
place at the time of the IP multimedia session invocation. Refer to =
clause 7.3 for further details on capability negotiation on IP =
multimedia session invocation.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> A UE should support negotiation of the user's desired =
language(s) (as defined in IANA [29]) and modalities for spoken, signed =
and written languages.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> The system should be able to negotiate the user's desired =
language(s) and modalities, per media stream and/or session, in order of =
preference.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> A service provider shall be able to pass language and modality =
information between the endpoints. With respect to the language and =
modality information, there are no other service provider actions =
required.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Gunnar
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>> -----------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
>>>>>>> Omnitor
>>>>>>> gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> SLIM mailing list
>>>>>> SLIM@ietf.org <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>
>>>>>=20
>>>>> --=20
>>>>> -----------------------------------------
>>>>> Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
>>>>> Omnitor
>>>>> gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>
>>>>> +46 708 204 288
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> SLIM mailing list
>>>>> SLIM@ietf.org <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> SLIM mailing list
>>>> SLIM@ietf.org <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>
>>>=20
>>> --=20
>>> -----------------------------------------
>>> Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
>>> Omnitor
>>> gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>
>>> +46 708 204 288
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> SLIM mailing list
>>> SLIM@ietf.org <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>
>>=20
>=20
> --=20
> -----------------------------------------
> Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
> Omnitor
> gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>
> +46 708 204 288


--Apple-Mail=_088CB68C-FB6C-4C69-9776-A495C280A241
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	charset=windows-1252

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">I do not believe that is the case. &nbsp;<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think I=92ve represented my point of =
view sufficiently clearly, and I don=92t have anything to add. &nbsp;I =
don=92t want more mechanism than the current draft provides.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In the absence of any =
really new information, I think I=92m done with this thread.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Brian</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jul 20, 2016, at 6:39 PM, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se" =
class=3D"">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Den 2016-07-20 kl. =
18:18, skrev Brian Rosen:</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><blockquote =
cite=3D"mid:61497BB0-BADE-41F5-B94A-70CFCACDEC5C@brianrosen.net" =
type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">I believe we had a consensus call on not =
including per session preferences in this document. &nbsp;Chairs can =
correct me if I am misremembering or misinterpreting what =
happened.</blockquote><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">The discussion in the meeting indicated that you =
viewed the preference across media as something very different from the =
other indications, while it is not, and also needed to get a finite =
result of the negotiation. With that new knowledge about earlier =
miscommunication or whatever it was, I claim that we include =
it.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Gunnar</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><blockquote =
cite=3D"mid:61497BB0-BADE-41F5-B94A-70CFCACDEC5C@brianrosen.net" =
type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Anyone can write a draft. &nbsp;If you want to propose a =
solution to that problem, go ahead, and write a draft. &nbsp;I would =
oppose adding that capability to this document.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I don=92t think we need to, or want to, =
specify any implementation advice with regard to user interfaces. I =
think =93provide information=85.to the callee=94 is a user interface =
issue.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Brian</div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jul 20, 2016, at 6:11 PM, =
Gunnar Hellstr=F6m &lt;<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" =
href=3D"mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se" =
class=3D"">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);">Den 2016-07-20 kl. 16:58, skrev Brian Rosen:<br =
class=3D""></p><blockquote =
cite=3D"mid:68C9050A-DF70-4225-BE22-54FA2185E263@brianrosen.net" =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">We are not communicating :)<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Since the protocol =
mechanism described informs both ends of the result of the negotiation, =
no further text is needed to fulfill the requirement.</div><div =
class=3D"">You want to go beyond what the requirement states. =
&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think =
the statement =93<b class=3D"" style=3D"background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255); color: rgb(204, 0, 0);">As soon as the callee has indicated =
capabilities in two languages, it is essential to provide information =
about the outcome of the protocol negotiation to the callee</b>=94 is =
not always correct, and is a user interface issue, not a protocol issue. =
&nbsp;The protocol exchange provides all the results to both ends, and =
any implementation is free to show any or all of that information, in =
any form it wants, to the human. &nbsp;It is not appropriate for us to =
say what it should do; that is very implementation dependent.&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote><blockquote =
cite=3D"mid:68C9050A-DF70-4225-BE22-54FA2185E263@brianrosen.net" =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div class=3D"">I specifically =
object to =93a notation for the most preferred language=94, which, =
strictly speaking, we have (order, per media). &nbsp;You want that per =
session, and I object to doing that. &nbsp;I strongly object to twisting =
=93both sides should be aware=85=94 into a requirement to transport a =
preference in language per session.</div></blockquote><br class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;">Why don't you want to solve the human problem to start a =
call in the most effective way.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><br class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;">My view is that we work on a draft that can be used for =
negotiation of language in a real-time call. In many cases the =
successful application involves providing guidance to the users so they =
know how to start the call. We do not need to say when and how that =
shall be done, but we need to make sure that the involved endpoints can =
have sufficient information for provision to the user in case it is =
needed to get a successful start of the human language use in the =
session.</span><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;">The 3GPP requirement is for a preference per session and =
per media. We have some intentions to make the slim output usable to =
3GPP, so why do you want to stop half-way?&nbsp; What makes the =
preference indication per session so hard to accept when that is what is =
needed to complete the negotiation to provide a defined outcome in a =
majority of cases?<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><br class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;">Since we have the phrase about awareness in the =
introduction, my proposals under 1. below are not strictly needed, but =
clarifying.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><br =
class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;">The issue under point 2. is much more important for =
successful starts of calls.&nbsp;&nbsp; If we do not solve it here, how =
do you then propose to solve it?</span><br class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;">Gunnar</span><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><blockquote =
cite=3D"mid:68C9050A-DF70-4225-BE22-54FA2185E263@brianrosen.net" =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Brian</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jul =
20, 2016, at 4:40 PM, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m &lt;<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" =
href=3D"mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se" =
class=3D"">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
float: none; display: inline !important;">Den 2016-07-20 kl. 10:50, =
skrev Brian Rosen:</span><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><blockquote =
cite=3D"mid:3A3B5229-1CB5-431F-BB27-EA73606D2F88@brianrosen.net" =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">I=92m very sensitive to user =
interface issues, and have some modest experience building good =
ones.</blockquote><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;">I am not talking about user interface issues.&nbsp; Just =
that for successful operation, we have cases when the user needs to be =
informed. And that is the case already with the draft as it is now. It =
will not have the intended effect if the users are not =
informed.</span><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><blockquote =
cite=3D"mid:3A3B5229-1CB5-431F-BB27-EA73606D2F88@brianrosen.net" =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=92m also pretty firm that protocol =
standards must not deal, in any way, with user interfaces, other than, =
sometimes, providing some information in protocol messages that are not =
strictly speaking required for the proper implementation of the =
protocol.<br class=3D""></div></blockquote><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
float: none; display: inline !important;">Right. The protocol can be =
executed on its own, but for many use cases we need to indicate to the =
users what the outcome was, otherwise we will leave them in uncertainty =
and they may act completely against what the protocol mechanism =
decided.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><br =
class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><blockquote =
cite=3D"mid:3A3B5229-1CB5-431F-BB27-EA73606D2F88@brianrosen.net" =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">When I read a statement that =93both =
sides should be aware of which language was negotiated=94, I interpret =
that as the implementation (that is, the code), and not the humans. =
&nbsp;It means that the messages in the protocol must result in both =
ends of the protocol knowing the result. &nbsp;We do use the word =
=93users=94 occasionally in protocol documents, and that=92s the term I =
expect to see when we mean the humans.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;">Well. whatever was the intention with the sentence in the =
introduction, the users in many cases need to be informed and =
aware.</span><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><blockquote =
cite=3D"mid:3A3B5229-1CB5-431F-BB27-EA73606D2F88@brianrosen.net" =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The document does describe a mechanism =
where both ends of the negotiation know the result, and thus we fulfill =
the requirement with no further work. &nbsp;User interfaces are free to =
present anything they want. &nbsp;I can easily describe a scenario where =
they do not present the results of the protocol negotiation: we may have =
one interpreter who is interpreting English to ASL on video, and another =
one who is interpreting English to Spanish text. &nbsp;The ASL =
interpreter doesn=92t doesn=92t need to know what is happening in the =
text change and the Spanish interpreter doesn=92t need to know what is =
happening in the ASL channel.</div></blockquote><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
float: none; display: inline !important;">Yes, it is possible to imagine =
cases when it is sufficient to indicate to the callee that there is an =
incoming call that they need to act on. In the case that the callee has =
indicated<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><font =
class=3D"" color=3D"#cc0000" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><b class=3D"">only one single =
language in one single humintlang-send attribute</b></font><span =
class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255); float: none; display: inline !important;">, then there is no =
question on how to respond to the call. The callee simply welcomes the =
caller in the only language specified.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><br class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;">But we want other cases to work as well.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><font class=3D"" =
color=3D"#cc0000" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);"><b class=3D"">As soon as the callee has indicated =
capabilities in two languages, it is essential to provide information =
about the outcome of the protocol negotiation to the callee.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b></font><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
float: none; display: inline !important;">The simple case with a callee =
capable of both spoken and written English is such a case. We do not at =
all need to tell anything about the user interface, but we need to =
mention something about providing information to the user.&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><br class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;">And in order to have a clear outcome in most cases, instead =
of ambiguity, we need at least<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><b class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><font class=3D"" =
color=3D"#cc0000">a notation for the most preferred language =
indication</font></b><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;">.</span><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;">How else would you be able to start the call in an =
appropriate way suiting the caller?</span><br class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;">So, the proposals below are still valid, but you might want =
to fine tune them to fit your view of how to indicate items to the =
user.</span><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;">/Gunnar</span><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><blockquote =
cite=3D"mid:3A3B5229-1CB5-431F-BB27-EA73606D2F88@brianrosen.net" =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Thus I don=92t think any further work =
is needed.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Brian</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jul =
20, 2016, at 10:23 AM, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m &lt;<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" =
href=3D"mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se" =
class=3D"">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);">Brian and all,</p><p class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">We had an interesting discussion =
in the meeting yesterday about indications to the user.</p><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">I =
said that one intention is that the result of the language negotiation =
is provided to the users and that that is already stated in the =
draft.<br class=3D""></p><p class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">In the introduction, we have this =
sentence: "<span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;">Both sides<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D""></span>should be aware of which language was negotiated.<span =
class=3D"">"</span></span></p><p class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif">I agree =
with this statement, and that it is often a requirement for a successful =
start of the call. It is true that the indications are also used for =
routing and selection of participants and user equipment, but also the =
users need to be informed. The answering party need to start the call by =
using the agreed preferred language in the agreed preferred modality, =
otherwise the call will start in confusion.</font></span></span></p><p =
class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif">Imagine a =
call from a user preferring spoken Greek, ending up at a call center =
agent capable of English and Greek. If the agent starts with a greeting =
in English instead of Greek, the calling user will get unsure if Greek =
can be used, and the call will start in uncertainty or even be conducted =
in English that the caller does not feel confident in.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif">This is not =
user interface specification. It is as simple as the statement in the =
introduction :<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></font></span></span><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif">"<span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;">Both sides<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D""></span>should be aware of which language was negotiated.<span =
class=3D"">"&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><font=
 class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica,
                                                Arial, sans-serif">The =
discussion went on saying that we do not specify user interfaces in =
IETF. And that is true, but many times we specify items where the user =
gets aware of the results of the protocol interaction. Examples can be =
call hold and release, picture size and orientation, remote camera =
movements, attended call transfer etc. So, we are in good company when =
we state that both sides are made aware of the outcome.<br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                                sans-serif">The =
requirement to keep the user aware of which language was negotiated is =
valid for the current scope of the draft as well as when we include =
preference across media and grouping. We can in fact not yet really =
fulfill that requirement within the current scope because we have not =
defined any way to differentiate preference between languages in =
different media. The outcome of the negotiation can still be undefined. =
We can with the current wording for example say that the caller prefers =
spoken English or written English, but not if there is any preference =
between these two providing awareness to the callee about how to start =
the call.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                                sans-serif">So, two =
conclusions:</font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                                sans-serif"><b =
class=3D"">1. We need to repeat the statement about bringing awareness =
at a more protruding position in the draft</b><b class=3D"">, and that =
is not a user interface specification.</b><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I =
suggest to add a sentence last in 4:<br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                                sans-serif">"Information =
on the accepted language is provided to the participants in the =
call."<br class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p =
class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                                sans-serif">and a =
sentence last in 6.2:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                                sans-serif">"The caller =
and callee should be provided with information on the outcome of the =
negotiation. This information is intended to enable them to start the =
call in a preferred language."<br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                                sans-serif"><b =
class=3D"">2.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><b =
class=3D"">We cannot</b><b class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>avoid to<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><b =
class=3D"">specify</b><b class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>preference between =
modalities.</b><b class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>L</b><b class=3D"">eav</b><b =
class=3D"">ing it out would leave</b><b class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>the negotiation with</b><b =
class=3D"">undefined results in many cases and uncertainty about how to =
start the call.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                                sans-serif">The caller =
may prefer to use spoken English but can accept to use written English, =
and want to express that so that no calls are missed. A callee with the =
same preferences get no clue to how to start the call from a negotiation =
resulting in that both spoken and written English are accepted without =
preference between them. A simple indication of the most preferred =
modality would solve this uncertainty in most cases.<br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                                sans-serif">I suggest to =
add an indication of most preferred language as a new section =
6.4.</font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                                sans-serif">6.4 Most =
preferred language</font></span></span></font></span></span></p><p =
class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                                sans-serif">A mechanism =
is introduced that provides information on the most preferred language =
among all language indications in the session description. This is =
do</font></span></span></font></span></span><span class=3D"" =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                                sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                                      Arial, =
sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                                          Arial,
                                                          sans-serif">ne =
in order to provide for a definite outcome of the negotiation of =
language in most cases, and thereby an opportunity for the call to start =
in a fruitful way.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span>=
</font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                                sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                                      Arial, =
sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                                          Arial,
                                                          =
sans-serif">The notation for the most preferred language is a plus ('+') =
character added after the language tag in the value of the corresponding =
language attribute. The notation MAY be used independently on both =
communication directions. The order between this indication and the =
indication for advisory versus required is not =
relevant.</font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></=
font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                                sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                                      Arial, =
sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                                          Arial,
                                                          =
sans-serif"><br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span>=
</font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><b class=3D""><span class=3D"" =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                            Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                                  Arial, =
sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                                        Arial,
                                                        =
sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                                          Arial,
                                                          =
sans-serif">Background</font></span></span></font></span></span></font></s=
pan></span></font></span></span></b></p><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                                sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                                      Arial, =
sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                                          Arial,
                                                          =
sans-serif">This discussion is in line with the requirement in 3GPP TS =
22.228, section 7.5.2.&nbsp; We have no clear obligations towards 3GPP, =
but It would be good if these requirements can be fulfilled without =
further =
standardisation.</font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></=
span></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">This is what is said in the 3GPP =
specification:<o:smarttagtype =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
name=3D"PersonName" class=3D""></o:smarttagtype><o:smarttagtype =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
name=3D"PersonName" class=3D""></o:smarttagtype></p><h3 class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 6pt 0cm 9pt 2cm; text-indent: -2cm; page-break-after: =
avoid; font-size: 14pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-weight: =
normal; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" name=3D"_Toc406715059" =
class=3D"">7.5.2<span class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>Negotiation at IM =
session invocation</a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></h3><o:smarttagtype =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
name=3D"PersonName" class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 9pt; font-size: 10pt;">It shall be possible for =
the capability negotiation to take place at the time of the IP =
multimedia session invocation. Refer to clause 7.3 for further details =
on capability negotiation on IP multimedia session invocation.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
9pt; font-size: 10pt;">A UE should support negotiation of the user's =
desired language(s) (as defined in<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span class=3D"" =
lang=3D"EN-US">IANA [29])<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>and modalities for =
spoken, signed and written languages.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 9pt; font-size: 10pt;">The =
system should be able to negotiate the user's desired language(s) and =
modalities, per media stream<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><font class=3D"" =
color=3D"#cc0000"><b class=3D"">and/or session, in order of =
preference</b></font>.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 9pt; font-size: 10pt;">A service provider shall =
be able to pass language and modality<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><st1:personname w:st=3D"on" =
class=3D"">info</st1:personname>rmation between the endpoints. With =
respect to the language and modality<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><st1:personname w:st=3D"on" =
class=3D"">info</st1:personname>rmation, there are no other service =
provider actions required.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p></o:smarttagtype><div =
class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                                sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                                      Arial, =
sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                                          Arial,
                                                          =
sans-serif">--------------------------------------------------</font></spa=
n></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></=
p><p class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font =
class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                                sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                                      Arial, =
sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                                          Arial,
                                                          =
sans-serif">Regards</font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span=
></span></font></span></span></p><p class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""><font class=3D"" face=3D"Helvetica,
                                          Arial, sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica, Arial,
                                                sans-serif"><span =
class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: =
15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                                      Arial, =
sans-serif"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span class=3D""><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Helvetica,
                                                          Arial,
                                                          =
sans-serif">Gunnar<br =
class=3D""></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span>=
</font></span></span></p><div class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span class=3D"" lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15.693333625793457px;"><span =
class=3D""></span></span><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><pre=
 class=3D"moz-signature" cols=3D"72" style=3D"font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);">--=20
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
Omnitor
<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" =
href=3D"mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a=
>
</pre></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""><fieldset class=3D"mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset><br =
class=3D""><pre class=3D"" =
wrap=3D"">_______________________________________________
SLIM mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" =
href=3D"mailto:SLIM@ietf.org">SLIM@ietf.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim">https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/slim</a>
</pre></blockquote><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><pre class=3D"moz-signature" =
cols=3D"72" style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">--=20
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
Omnitor
<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" =
href=3D"mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a=
>
+46 708 204 288</pre><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;">_______________________________________________</span><br =
class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;">SLIM mailing list</span><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" =
href=3D"mailto:SLIM@ietf.org" class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">SLIM@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim" class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a><br class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""><fieldset class=3D"mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset><br =
class=3D""><pre class=3D"" =
wrap=3D"">_______________________________________________
SLIM mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" =
href=3D"mailto:SLIM@ietf.org">SLIM@ietf.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim">https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/slim</a>
</pre></blockquote><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><pre class=3D"moz-signature" =
cols=3D"72" style=3D"font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">--=20
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
Omnitor
<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" =
href=3D"mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a=
>
+46 708 204 288</pre><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;">_______________________________________________</span><br =
class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none; display: inline =
!important;">SLIM mailing list</span><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" =
href=3D"mailto:SLIM@ietf.org" class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">SLIM@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"><a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim" class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a><br class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);"></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></blockquote><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><pre class=3D"moz-signature" cols=3D"72" style=3D"font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);">--=20
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
Omnitor
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" =
href=3D"mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a=
>
+46 708 204 288</pre></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

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From: Nik Tomkinson <rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 18:27:54 +0100
Message-ID: <CAK5rQdwwzF_qHijaaDFdotGrZCxm_UtywPz1vhe6KqX86RH9NA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Brian Rosen <br@brianrosen.net>
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Cc: slim@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Slim] Variations in display names
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Thanks Brian,

what about:

removing "and SHOULD NOT have a From field"

and

inserting "If there is a From field present, its value MUST/SHOULD include
the same email address as the top-level From header although the display
name MAY be a localised version."

If so, I would lean towards MUST rather than SHOULD seeing as we are
relaxing the part that is most useful.

Nik.

On 20 July 2016 at 17:11, Brian Rosen <br@brianrosen.net> wrote:

> Yeah, I=E2=80=99d like to at least relax it, stating that the email addre=
ss has to
> be the same.
> Yes, this is cosmetic.
>
> I get your point about the top level sender
>
> Brian
>
> On Jul 20, 2016, at 6:04 PM, Nik Tomkinson <rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Brian,
>
> Thanks very much for asking others to look at the draft.
>
> The restriction was added in the latest version to attempt to avoid the
> issue highlighted in the paragraph I added to the security considerations=
.
> I don't mind either relaxing the restriction or removing it completely as
> long as it is clear enough that the impersonation risk is there and that
> the From values in the language message parts correspond to the same send=
er.
>
> I am assuming that the differences that your user requires are cosmetic
> rather than a different email address.
>
> There may be confusion because the email listing (eg. inbox list of
> summaries) is likely to show the top-level sender but the detail (when
> clicked on) is likely to show the From value in the selected part.
>
> Nik.
>
> On 20 July 2016 at 15:49, Brian Rosen <br@brianrosen.net> wrote:
>
>> I am trying to find folks to prototype and interop test -multilanguage.
>> I had some possible users look at the draft, and one of them observed th=
at
>> they would like to modify the display name in the From based on language=
,
>> but the text expressly forbids From from being in the labeled part.
>>
>> Do we have any appetite to allow this?
>>
>> Brian
>> _______________________________________________
>> SLIM mailing list
>> SLIM@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Multiple Language Content Type Internet Draft:
>
> <http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-multilangcontent/>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/
> <http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-slim-multilangcontent/>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>


--=20

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Multiple Language Content Type Internet Draft:

<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-multilangcontent/>
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/
<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-slim-multilangcontent/>

-----------------------------------------------------------------

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks Brian,<div><div><br></div><div>what about:=C2=A0</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>removing &quot;and SHOULD NOT have a From field&quot=
;</div><div><br></div><div>and</div><div><br></div><div>inserting &quot;If =
there is a From field present, its value MUST/SHOULD include the same email=
 address as the top-level From header although the display name MAY be a lo=
calised version.&quot;</div></div><div><br></div><div>If so, I would lean t=
owards MUST rather than SHOULD seeing as we are relaxing the part that is m=
ost useful.</div><div><br></div><div>Nik.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_ex=
tra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 20 July 2016 at 17:11, Brian Rosen <=
span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:br@brianrosen.net" target=3D"_blank"=
>br@brianrosen.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">=
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">Yeah, I=E2=80=99d like to at least rela=
x it, stating that the email address has to be the same.<div>Yes, this is c=
osmetic.</div><div><br></div><div>I get your point about the top level send=
er</div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div><div>=
Brian</div></font></span><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><br><div><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><div>On Jul 20, 2016, at 6:04 PM, Nik Tomkinson &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">rfc.nik.tomkinson@gm=
ail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Brian,<div><br></d=
iv><div>Thanks very much for asking others to look at the draft.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>The restriction was added in the latest version to attempt t=
o avoid the issue highlighted in the paragraph I added to the security cons=
iderations. I don&#39;t mind either relaxing the restriction or removing it=
 completely as long as it is clear enough that the impersonation risk is th=
ere and that the From values in the language message parts correspond to th=
e same sender.</div><div><br></div><div>I am assuming that the differences =
that your user requires are cosmetic rather than a different email address.=
</div><div><br></div><div>There may be confusion because the email listing =
(eg. inbox list of summaries) is likely to show the top-level sender but th=
e detail (when clicked on) is likely to show the From value in the selected=
 part.</div><div><br></div><div>Nik.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 20 July 2016 at 15:49, Brian Rosen <span =
dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:br@brianrosen.net" target=3D"_blank">br@b=
rianrosen.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I am =
trying to find folks to prototype and interop test -multilanguage.=C2=A0 I =
had some possible users look at the draft, and one of them observed that th=
ey would like to modify the display name in the From based on language, but=
 the text expressly forbids From from being in the labeled part.<br>
<br>
Do we have any appetite to allow this?<br>
<br>
Brian<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
SLIM mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:SLIM@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">SLIM@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div data-sm=
artmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><pre><span style=3D"font-family:courier=
 new,monospace">-----------------------------------------------------------=
------<br>Multiple Language Content Type Internet Draft:</span></pre><a hre=
f=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-multilangcontent/" tar=
get=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace"></span></a=
><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-slim-multilangc=
ontent/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim=
-multilangcontent/</a><br><pre><span style=3D"font-family:courier new,monos=
pace">-----------------------------------------------------------------</sp=
an><br></pre></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
</div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br=
><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail_signature" dat=
a-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><pre><span style=3D"font-family:cou=
rier new,monospace">-------------------------------------------------------=
----------<br>Multiple Language Content Type Internet Draft:</span></pre><a=
 href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-multilangcontent/"=
 target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace"></span=
></a><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-slim-multil=
angcontent/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-=
slim-multilangcontent/</a><br><pre><span style=3D"font-family:courier new,m=
onospace">-----------------------------------------------------------------=
</span><br></pre></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>

--001a113e1eaa8f2e60053814854d--


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From: Brian Rosen <br@brianrosen.net>
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Subject: Re: [Slim] Variations in display names
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Works for me, and I=E2=80=99m happy with MUST

Brian

> On Jul 20, 2016, at 7:27 PM, Nik Tomkinson =
<rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Thanks Brian,
>=20
> what about:=20
>=20
> removing "and SHOULD NOT have a =46rom field"
>=20
> and
>=20
> inserting "If there is a =46rom field present, its value MUST/SHOULD =
include the same email address as the top-level =46rom header although =
the display name MAY be a localised version."
>=20
> If so, I would lean towards MUST rather than SHOULD seeing as we are =
relaxing the part that is most useful.
>=20
> Nik.
>=20
> On 20 July 2016 at 17:11, Brian Rosen <br@brianrosen.net =
<mailto:br@brianrosen.net>> wrote:
> Yeah, I=E2=80=99d like to at least relax it, stating that the email =
address has to be the same.
> Yes, this is cosmetic.
>=20
> I get your point about the top level sender
>=20
> Brian
>=20
>> On Jul 20, 2016, at 6:04 PM, Nik Tomkinson =
<rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail.com <mailto:rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail.com>> =
wrote:
>>=20
>> Hi Brian,
>>=20
>> Thanks very much for asking others to look at the draft.
>>=20
>> The restriction was added in the latest version to attempt to avoid =
the issue highlighted in the paragraph I added to the security =
considerations. I don't mind either relaxing the restriction or removing =
it completely as long as it is clear enough that the impersonation risk =
is there and that the =46rom values in the language message parts =
correspond to the same sender.
>>=20
>> I am assuming that the differences that your user requires are =
cosmetic rather than a different email address.
>>=20
>> There may be confusion because the email listing (eg. inbox list of =
summaries) is likely to show the top-level sender but the detail (when =
clicked on) is likely to show the =46rom value in the selected part.
>>=20
>> Nik.
>>=20
>> On 20 July 2016 at 15:49, Brian Rosen <br@brianrosen.net =
<mailto:br@brianrosen.net>> wrote:
>> I am trying to find folks to prototype and interop test =
-multilanguage.  I had some possible users look at the draft, and one of =
them observed that they would like to modify the display name in the =
=46rom based on language, but the text expressly forbids =46rom from =
being in the labeled part.
>>=20
>> Do we have any appetite to allow this?
>>=20
>> Brian
>> _______________________________________________
>> SLIM mailing list
>> SLIM@ietf.org <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> --=20
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>> Multiple Language Content Type Internet Draft:
>>  =
<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-multilangcontent/>https:/=
/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/ =
<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-slim-multilangcontent/>
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Multiple Language Content Type Internet Draft:
>  =
<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-multilangcontent/>https:/=
/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/ =
<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-slim-multilangcontent/>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Works for me, and I=E2=80=99m happy with MUST<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Brian</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jul 20, 2016, at 7:27 PM, Nik Tomkinson &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">Thanks Brian,<div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">what about:&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">removing "and SHOULD NOT =
have a =46rom field"</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">and</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">inserting "If there is a =46rom field present, its value =
MUST/SHOULD include the same email address as the top-level =46rom =
header although the display name MAY be a localised =
version."</div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">If so, I would lean towards MUST rather than SHOULD seeing as =
we are relaxing the part that is most useful.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Nik.</div></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 20 =
July 2016 at 17:11, Brian Rosen <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:br@brianrosen.net" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">br@brianrosen.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D"">Yeah, I=E2=80=99d like to at =
least relax it, stating that the email address has to be the same.<div =
class=3D"">Yes, this is cosmetic.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I get your point about the top level =
sender</div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888" class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Brian</div></font></span><div class=3D""><div class=3D"h5"><div=
 class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jul 20, 2016, at 6:04 PM, Nik Tomkinson =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Hi Brian,<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Thanks very much for =
asking others to look at the draft.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The restriction was added in the latest =
version to attempt to avoid the issue highlighted in the paragraph I =
added to the security considerations. I don't mind either relaxing the =
restriction or removing it completely as long as it is clear enough that =
the impersonation risk is there and that the =46rom values in the =
language message parts correspond to the same sender.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I am assuming that the =
differences that your user requires are cosmetic rather than a different =
email address.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">There may be confusion because the email listing (eg. inbox =
list of summaries) is likely to show the top-level sender but the detail =
(when clicked on) is likely to show the =46rom value in the selected =
part.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Nik.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On 20 July 2016 at 15:49, Brian Rosen <span =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:br@brianrosen.net" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">br@brianrosen.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I am trying to find =
folks to prototype and interop test -multilanguage.&nbsp; I had some =
possible users look at the draft, and one of them observed that they =
would like to modify the display name in the =46rom based on language, =
but the text expressly forbids =46rom from being in the labeled part.<br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Do we have any appetite to allow this?<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Brian<br class=3D"">
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">
SLIM mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:SLIM@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">SLIM@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a><br class=3D"">
</blockquote></div><br class=3D""><br clear=3D"all" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>-- <br class=3D""><div =
data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature" class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><pre class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:courier =
new,monospace" =
class=3D"">---------------------------------------------------------------=
--<br class=3D"">Multiple Language Content Type Internet =
Draft:</span></pre><a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-multilangcontent/"=
 target=3D"_blank" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:courier =
new,monospace" class=3D""></span></a><a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-slim-multilangcont=
ent/" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangconte=
nt/</a><br class=3D""><pre class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:courier =
new,monospace" =
class=3D"">---------------------------------------------------------------=
--</span><br =
class=3D""></pre></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
</div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><br =
clear=3D"all" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>-- <br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_signature" =
data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><pre =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace" =
class=3D"">---------------------------------------------------------------=
--<br class=3D"">Multiple Language Content Type Internet =
Draft:</span></pre><a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-multilangcontent/"=
 target=3D"_blank" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:courier =
new,monospace" class=3D""></span></a><a =
href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-slim-multilangcont=
ent/" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangconte=
nt/</a><br class=3D""><pre class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family:courier =
new,monospace" =
class=3D"">---------------------------------------------------------------=
--</span><br =
class=3D""></pre></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Nik Tomkinson <rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 19:08:20 +0100
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Subject: Re: [Slim] Variations in display names
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Thanks,

I have updated this but left the "SHOULD NOT have a From field" restriction
in the language independent part because for this use case it does not make
sense to allow localised version of the display name when the translation
was not matched by the email client. In this case both the Subject and From
values should be taken from the top level values.

I will submit a new version tomorrow when other people have had a chance to
comment too on this and any other parts of the draft.

Nik.

On 20 July 2016 at 18:29, Brian Rosen <br@brianrosen.net> wrote:

> Works for me, and I=E2=80=99m happy with MUST
>
> Brian
>
> On Jul 20, 2016, at 7:27 PM, Nik Tomkinson <rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Thanks Brian,
>
> what about:
>
> removing "and SHOULD NOT have a From field"
>
> and
>
> inserting "If there is a From field present, its value MUST/SHOULD includ=
e
> the same email address as the top-level From header although the display
> name MAY be a localised version."
>
> If so, I would lean towards MUST rather than SHOULD seeing as we are
> relaxing the part that is most useful.
>
> Nik.
>
> On 20 July 2016 at 17:11, Brian Rosen <br@brianrosen.net> wrote:
>
>> Yeah, I=E2=80=99d like to at least relax it, stating that the email addr=
ess has
>> to be the same.
>> Yes, this is cosmetic.
>>
>> I get your point about the top level sender
>>
>> Brian
>>
>> On Jul 20, 2016, at 6:04 PM, Nik Tomkinson <rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Brian,
>>
>> Thanks very much for asking others to look at the draft.
>>
>> The restriction was added in the latest version to attempt to avoid the
>> issue highlighted in the paragraph I added to the security consideration=
s.
>> I don't mind either relaxing the restriction or removing it completely a=
s
>> long as it is clear enough that the impersonation risk is there and that
>> the From values in the language message parts correspond to the same sen=
der.
>>
>> I am assuming that the differences that your user requires are cosmetic
>> rather than a different email address.
>>
>> There may be confusion because the email listing (eg. inbox list of
>> summaries) is likely to show the top-level sender but the detail (when
>> clicked on) is likely to show the From value in the selected part.
>>
>> Nik.
>>
>> On 20 July 2016 at 15:49, Brian Rosen <br@brianrosen.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I am trying to find folks to prototype and interop test -multilanguage.
>>> I had some possible users look at the draft, and one of them observed t=
hat
>>> they would like to modify the display name in the From based on languag=
e,
>>> but the text expressly forbids From from being in the labeled part.
>>>
>>> Do we have any appetite to allow this?
>>>
>>> Brian
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> SLIM mailing list
>>> SLIM@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>> Multiple Language Content Type Internet Draft:
>>
>> <http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-multilangcontent/>
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/
>> <http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-slim-multilangcontent/>
>>
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Multiple Language Content Type Internet Draft:
>
> <http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-multilangcontent/>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/
> <http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-slim-multilangcontent/>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>


--=20

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Multiple Language Content Type Internet Draft:

<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-multilangcontent/>
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/
<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-slim-multilangcontent/>

-----------------------------------------------------------------

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks,<div><br></div><div>I have updated this but left th=
e &quot;SHOULD NOT have a From field&quot; restriction in the language inde=
pendent part because for this use case it does not make sense to allow loca=
lised version of the display name when the translation was not matched by t=
he email client. In this case both the Subject and From values should be ta=
ken from the top level values.</div><div><br></div><div>I will submit a new=
 version tomorrow when other people have had a chance to comment too on thi=
s and any other parts of the draft.</div><div><br></div><div>Nik.</div></di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 20 July 2016=
 at 18:29, Brian Rosen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:br@brianrose=
n.net" target=3D"_blank">br@brianrosen.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">Works for me, a=
nd I=E2=80=99m happy with MUST<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888=
"><div><br></div><div>Brian</div></font></span><div><div class=3D"h5"><div>=
<br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Jul 20, 2016, at 7:27 PM, Nik To=
mkinson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank=
">rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><div><div dir=3D"ltr"=
>Thanks Brian,<div><div><br></div><div>what about:=C2=A0</div><div><br></di=
v><div>removing &quot;and SHOULD NOT have a From field&quot;</div><div><br>=
</div><div>and</div><div><br></div><div>inserting &quot;If there is a From =
field present, its value MUST/SHOULD include the same email address as the =
top-level From header although the display name MAY be a localised version.=
&quot;</div></div><div><br></div><div>If so, I would lean towards MUST rath=
er than SHOULD seeing as we are relaxing the part that is most useful.</div=
><div><br></div><div>Nik.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote">On 20 July 2016 at 17:11, Brian Rosen <span dir=3D"ltr"=
>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:br@brianrosen.net" target=3D"_blank">br@brianrosen.n=
et</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"wo=
rd-wrap:break-word">Yeah, I=E2=80=99d like to at least relax it, stating th=
at the email address has to be the same.<div>Yes, this is cosmetic.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>I get your point about the top level sender</div><span><f=
ont color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div><div>Brian</div></font></span><div><di=
v><div><br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Jul 20, 2016, at 6:04 PM,=
 Nik Tomkinson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail.com" target=3D=
"_blank">rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><div><div dir=
=3D"ltr">Hi Brian,<div><br></div><div>Thanks very much for asking others to=
 look at the draft.</div><div><br></div><div>The restriction was added in t=
he latest version to attempt to avoid the issue highlighted in the paragrap=
h I added to the security considerations. I don&#39;t mind either relaxing =
the restriction or removing it completely as long as it is clear enough tha=
t the impersonation risk is there and that the From values in the language =
message parts correspond to the same sender.</div><div><br></div><div>I am =
assuming that the differences that your user requires are cosmetic rather t=
han a different email address.</div><div><br></div><div>There may be confus=
ion because the email listing (eg. inbox list of summaries) is likely to sh=
ow the top-level sender but the detail (when clicked on) is likely to show =
the From value in the selected part.</div><div><br></div><div>Nik.</div></d=
iv><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 20 July 201=
6 at 15:49, Brian Rosen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:br@brianros=
en.net" target=3D"_blank">br@brianrosen.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex">I am trying to find folks to prototype and interop=
 test -multilanguage.=C2=A0 I had some possible users look at the draft, an=
d one of them observed that they would like to modify the display name in t=
he From based on language, but the text expressly forbids From from being i=
n the labeled part.<br>
<br>
Do we have any appetite to allow this?<br>
<br>
Brian<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
SLIM mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:SLIM@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">SLIM@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div data-sm=
artmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><pre><span style=3D"font-family:courier=
 new,monospace">-----------------------------------------------------------=
------<br>Multiple Language Content Type Internet Draft:</span></pre><a hre=
f=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-multilangcontent/" tar=
get=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace"></span></a=
><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-slim-multilangc=
ontent/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim=
-multilangcontent/</a><br><pre><span style=3D"font-family:courier new,monos=
pace">-----------------------------------------------------------------</sp=
an><br></pre></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
</div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br=
><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signa=
ture"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><pre><span style=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace">------=
-----------------------------------------------------------<br>Multiple Lan=
guage Content Type Internet Draft:</span></pre><a href=3D"http://datatracke=
r.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-multilangcontent/" target=3D"_blank"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace"></span></a><a href=3D"http://dat=
atracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-slim-multilangcontent/" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/</a>=
<br><pre><span style=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace">----------------=
-------------------------------------------------</span><br></pre></div></d=
iv></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
</div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br=
><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail_signature" dat=
a-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><pre><span style=3D"font-family:cou=
rier new,monospace">-------------------------------------------------------=
----------<br>Multiple Language Content Type Internet Draft:</span></pre><a=
 href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-multilangcontent/"=
 target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace"></span=
></a><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-slim-multil=
angcontent/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-=
slim-multilangcontent/</a><br><pre><span style=3D"font-family:courier new,m=
onospace">-----------------------------------------------------------------=
</span><br></pre></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>

--001a113e6e5c2e0e1e0538151615--


From nobody Thu Jul 21 00:15:41 2016
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From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gunnar_Hellstr=c3=b6m?= <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>
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Subject: Re: [Slim] awareness to the user in the slim real-time draft
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Bernard, thanks for trying to explain the resistance.

Den 2016-07-20 kl. 18:52, skrev Bernard Aboba:

> On Jul 20, 2016, at 6:11 PM, Gunnar HellstrÃ¶m <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se> wrote:
>> Why don't you want to solve the human problem to start a call in the most effective way.
> [BA] As stated at the meeting, the major question is in what layer this functionality belongs.
I guess you mean the whole topic of language negotiation. It is an 
application level topic about user information and agreement, with some 
influence on call routing and device selection.
If you meant the remaining issues of preference across session, and 
grouping, it is the same.
>
> In several IETF WGs, including CLUE and now WEBRTC, the decision has been made to limit the complexity of the SDP O/A negotiation to the bare minimum needed to bring the call up. From there, the application can add functionality. This approach "optimizes for the common case",  limits the difficulty in implementing the basic required SDP and makes it more likely that it will interoperate.
Yes, sdp is becoming hard to manage, when you are supposed to negotiate 
SRTP vs RTP, AVPF vs AVP, RTCP vs INFO, multiplexing, ICE etc and now 
also language. So, maybe we made the wrong decision to go this way. We 
could have defined an XML schema for language and modality preferences 
and conveyed it somehow between the parties. But now we are here with 
our decision close to WGLC and intend to take this through.
>
> AFAICT, the basic SDP functionality in the draft appears to be enough to enable an application to handle media preference on its own.
>
> As an example, I believe that every use case can be supported within a web application using a modified SIP library without any SDP additions beyond what we already have defined.
Do you mean that we now need to add SIP headers for the remaining 
information to really sort out what it meant by the limited indications 
we provide in SDP.

Something like: modality-preference-send: speech ; 
modality-preference-recv: speech

And something similar for SIP-less calls?


>
> Yes, the application would need to deal with media preferences but most unified communications applications support multiple modes and need to handle decisions on media usage already (camera on/off, mute, etc.) Adding complexity to the SDP parser might actually make it harder for the application, not easier.
The application areas I want to see benefit from this work are wide and 
do not have any other common specification fora that can add SIP or SDP 
elements. It is for example 3GPP that convey regular calls with ambition 
to have interoperability between providers, and it is for example 
between SIP providers and ESiNets following NENA or EENA specs. They all 
rely on the ground work done in IETF, for selection into their profiles.

It is possible to make another IETF draft and add the missing parts 
there, but it looks unmotivated to break out a small part of the work 
like that.

What I want to avoid is this situation:

-Caller calls with indication of English speech reception and English 
text reception
  Caller prefers speech, but has included text for not scaring off 
friends who prefer text. But there is no way to convey this preference.
-Callee has both English speech sending and English text sending capability.
-Callee has no clue for how to start the call, so just taking a chance, 
the callee starts in text, typing "Hi, welcome to my service".
-The caller sees that and feels that it is most polite to start in the 
same modality, so the caller thinks it is a bit inconvenient, but types: 
" Hi, I want support for a problem. Can we talk?"
-The callee types: "Oh, yes, let us switch to talking" and the the 
callee says "Ok , talking now, what is your problem."
- The call continues in speech, using text just for model numbers, 
booking numbers URL:s etc in this case.

This is a quite natural development of a call where preference is not 
indicated from the beginning, and it adds inconvenience and delay 
compared to what it could have been if there was a way to convey 
modality preference.

I think it is small enough feature to go into the humintlang draft and 
general enough to not be pushed to be solved differently for each 
application.

A thought of mine was that the asterisk-notation for "do not fail" was 
not really needed and we could move that notation to point out the most 
preferred modality. But we heard opposition to that in the meeting, so 
now we are back to the need to add something small but important.

/Gunnar


>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> SLIM mailing list
> SLIM@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim

-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar HellstrÃ¶m
Omnitor
gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
+46 708 204 288


From nobody Thu Jul 21 02:04:29 2016
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From: Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>
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Subject: Re: [Slim] awareness to the user in the slim real-time draft
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You want the application to be able to first know=20
what the user prefers across all media and=20
languages, and second, to be able to match what=20
was negotiated with the other end with what the=20
user wants.  I believe you can do that with what=20
we have now.

Consider: the application takes into account the=20
user's preferences across media and languages in=20
deciding what to offer.  After the session is=20
established, the application compares what was=20
accepted to the user's preferences across media=20
and languages, determines which combination of=20
the accepted media and languages is most=20
preferred by the user, and displays that=20
information to the user.

--Randy


At 9:15 AM +0200 7/21/16, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m wrote:

>  Bernard, thanks for trying to explain the resistance.
>
>  Den 2016-07-20 kl. 18:52, skrev Bernard Aboba:
>
>>  On Jul 20, 2016, at 6:11 PM, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m=20
>> <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se> wrote:
>>>  Why don't you want to solve the human problem=20
>>> to start a call in the most effective way.
>>  [BA] As stated at the meeting, the major=20
>> question is in what layer this functionality=20
>> belongs.
>  I guess you mean the whole topic of language=20
> negotiation. It is an application level topic=20
> about user information and agreement, with some=20
> influence on call routing and device selection.
>  If you meant the remaining issues of preference=20
> across session, and grouping, it is the same.
>>
>>  In several IETF WGs, including CLUE and now=20
>> WEBRTC, the decision has been made to limit=20
>> the complexity of the SDP O/A negotiation to=20
>> the bare minimum needed to bring the call up.=20
>> From there, the application can add=20
>> functionality. This approach "optimizes for=20
>> the common case",  limits the difficulty in=20
>> implementing the basic required SDP and makes=20
>> it more likely that it will interoperate.
>  Yes, sdp is becoming hard to manage, when you=20
> are supposed to negotiate SRTP vs RTP, AVPF vs=20
> AVP, RTCP vs INFO, multiplexing, ICE etc and=20
> now also language. So, maybe we made the wrong=20
> decision to go this way. We could have defined=20
> an XML schema for language and modality=20
> preferences and conveyed it somehow between the=20
> parties. But now we are here with our decision=20
> close to WGLC and intend to take this through.
>>
>>  AFAICT, the basic SDP functionality in the=20
>> draft appears to be enough to enable an=20
>> application to handle media preference on its=20
>> own.
>>
>>  As an example, I believe that every use case=20
>> can be supported within a web application=20
>> using a modified SIP library without any SDP=20
>> additions beyond what we already have defined.
>  Do you mean that we now need to add SIP headers=20
> for the remaining information to really sort=20
> out what it meant by the limited indications we=20
> provide in SDP.
>
>  Something like: modality-preference-send:=20
> speech ; modality-preference-recv: speech
>
>  And something similar for SIP-less calls?
>
>>
>>  Yes, the application would need to deal with=20
>> media preferences but most unified=20
>> communications applications support multiple=20
>> modes and need to handle decisions on media=20
>> usage already (camera on/off, mute, etc.)=20
>> Adding complexity to the SDP parser might=20
>> actually make it harder for the application,=20
>> not easier.
>  The application areas I want to see benefit=20
> from this work are wide and do not have any=20
> other common specification fora that can add=20
> SIP or SDP elements. It is for example 3GPP=20
> that convey regular calls with ambition to have=20
> interoperability between providers, and it is=20
> for example between SIP providers and ESiNets=20
> following NENA or EENA specs. They all rely on=20
> the ground work done in IETF, for selection=20
> into their profiles.
>
>  It is possible to make another IETF draft and=20
> add the missing parts there, but it looks=20
> unmotivated to break out a small part of the=20
> work like that.
>
>  What I want to avoid is this situation:
>
>  -Caller calls with indication of English speech=20
> reception and English text reception
>   Caller prefers speech, but has included text=20
> for not scaring off friends who prefer text.=20
> But there is no way to convey this preference.
>  -Callee has both English speech sending and English text sending capabili=
ty.
>  -Callee has no clue for how to start the call,=20
> so just taking a chance, the callee starts in=20
> text, typing "Hi, welcome to my service".
>  -The caller sees that and feels that it is most=20
> polite to start in the same modality, so the=20
> caller thinks it is a bit inconvenient, but=20
> types: " Hi, I want support for a problem. Can=20
> we talk?"
>  -The callee types: "Oh, yes, let us switch to=20
> talking" and the the callee says "Ok , talking=20
> now, what is your problem."
>  - The call continues in speech, using text just=20
> for model numbers, booking numbers URL:s etc in=20
> this case.
>
>  This is a quite natural development of a call=20
> where preference is not indicated from the=20
> beginning, and it adds inconvenience and delay=20
> compared to what it could have been if there=20
> was a way to convey modality preference.
>
>  I think it is small enough feature to go into=20
> the humintlang draft and general enough to not=20
> be pushed to be solved differently for each=20
> application.
>
>  A thought of mine was that the=20
> asterisk-notation for "do not fail" was not=20
> really needed and we could move that notation=20
> to point out the most preferred modality. But=20
> we heard opposition to that in the meeting, so=20
> now we are back to the need to add something=20
> small but important.
>
>  /Gunnar
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  SLIM mailing list
>>  SLIM@ietf.org
>>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>
>  --
>  -----------------------------------------
>  Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
>  Omnitor
>  gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>  +46 708 204 288
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  SLIM mailing list
>  SLIM@ietf.org
>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim


-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
If A = B and B = C, then A = C, except where void or prohibited by law.


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Hi Gunar,

At 3:01 PM +0200 7/20/16, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m wrote:

>  Randall,
>
>  Thanks for rapid and thorough action. Most of=20
> my comments and edit proposals are well covered=20
> in -02
>
>  I have some rapid feedback.
>
>  1. Check the informational references in 12.2=20
> and delet the ones we do not use anymore.

Good idea.  Done.

>
>  2. In 4 and 6 it is said that we define 'a'=20
> media attribute and 'an' SDP attribute.=20
> Consider if we should say 'two' already there.

I added some clarification here.

>
>  3. In 4, the lats paragraph ( the paranthesis )=20
> indicates that negotiating multiple languages=20
> is not feasible. But firstly, the caller is=20
> described to have the option to offer multiple=20
> alternatives, and some feasible use cases use=20
> multiple languages to express their=20
> preferences. So, the draft is contradicting=20
> this paragraph. Or I miss something it wants to=20
> say that also other readers could miss. I=20
> suggest to delete the last paragraph of 4.

I reworded the note to be more clear.

>
>  4. In 5, "The group" is used but not defined.=20
> And the discussion is not needed. "not=20
> sufficiently detailed" would be sufficient.

I reworded the text to be more clear.

>
>  5. In 6.2, I suggested to add a sentence: "
>
>  Events during the session may influence which language(s) are used,
>
>  and the participants are not strictly bound to only use the declared
>
>  languages."
>
>  I think it is a valid clarification.

=46air enough.  I added a note to this effect.

>
>  6. As 6.4 I suggest to insert the "Most=20
> preferred language" section discussed in mail=20
> today.

I did not see any such thing.  In which email is this?

>
>  7. I suggested a syntax and examples section,=20
> but did not provide wording for it. I still=20
> think that that is needed. ( especially for=20
> understanding how the * is used, I remember=20
> some comments of astonishment that it is hooked=20
> on at the end of a language tag. )

It is consistent with other uses, such as SIP Accept-Language syntax.

It seems useful to have some examples, so I added a section for this.

>
>  8. I agree with the comment during the meeting,=20
> that additions to the security section with=20
> material from the use case document should be=20
> done.

The test in the security considerations in the=20
use cases document is actually a privacy=20
consideration, not a security consideration.  I=20
added a new section for this.

>
>
>  These were my immediate reactions. More might come.

Those can be submitted against WGLC or IETF LC.

>
>  Thanks,
>
>
>  Gunnar
>
>
>
>  Den 2016-07-20 kl. 11:56, skrev Randall Gellens:
>
>>  Version -02 is now available. It addresses all=20
>> comments. If you feel a comment was not=20
>> correctly addressed, or you have another=20
>> comment, please say so. The group may want to=20
>> especially look at Section 5 ("The existing=20
>> 'lang' attribute") to be sure the text reflect=20
>> group consensus.
>>
>
>  --
>  -----------------------------------------
>  Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
>  Omnitor
>  <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>  +46 708 204 288
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  SLIM mailing list
>  SLIM@ietf.org
>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim


-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
When a man tells you that he got rich through hard work, ask
him: "Whose?"                                  --Don Marquis


From nobody Thu Jul 21 02:54:08 2016
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Subject: [Slim] I-D Action: draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-03.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Selection of Language for Internet Media of the IETF.

        Title           : Negotiating Human Language in Real-Time Communications
        Author          : Randall Gellens
	Filename        : draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-03.txt
	Pages           : 18
	Date            : 2016-07-21

Abstract:
   Users have various human (natural) language needs, abilities, and
   preferences regarding spoken, written, and signed languages.  When
   establishing interactive communication ("calls") there needs to be a
   way to negotiate (communicate and match) the caller's language and
   media needs with the capabilities of the called party.  This is
   especially important with emergency calls, where a call can be
   handled by a call taker capable of communicating with the user, or a
   translator or relay operator can be bridged into the call during
   setup, but this applies to non-emergency calls as well (as an
   example, when calling a company call center).

   This document describes the need and a solution using new SDP stream
   attributes.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-03

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-03


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This version addresses all comments received against -02.  It is 
ready for WGLC.

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
All science is either physics or stamp collecting.
        --E. Rutherford


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Selection of Language for Internet Media of the IETF.

        Title           : Multiple Language Content Type
        Authors         : Nik Tomkinson
                          Nathaniel Borenstein
	Filename        : draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-03.txt
	Pages           : 16
	Date            : 2016-07-21

Abstract:
   This document defines an addition to the Multipurpose Internet Mail
   Extensions (MIME) standard to make it possible to send one message
   that contains multiple language versions of the same information.
   The translations would be identified by a language tag and selected
   by the email client based on a user's language settings.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/

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Randall,

thanks for rapid action again,


Den 2016-07-21 kl. 11:40, skrev Randall Gellens:
> Hi Gunar,
>
> At 3:01 PM +0200 7/20/16, Gunnar Hellström wrote:
>
>>  Randall,
>>
>>  Thanks for rapid and thorough action. Most of my comments and edit 
>> proposals are well covered in -02
>>
>>  I have some rapid feedback.
>>
>>  1. Check the informational references in 12.2 and delet the ones we 
>> do not use anymore.
>
> Good idea.  Done.
Good
>
>>
>>  2. In 4 and 6 it is said that we define 'a' media attribute and 'an' 
>> SDP attribute. Consider if we should say 'two' already there.
>
> I added some clarification here.
Good solution
>
>>
>>  3. In 4, the lats paragraph ( the paranthesis ) indicates that 
>> negotiating multiple languages is not feasible. But firstly, the 
>> caller is described to have the option to offer multiple 
>> alternatives, and some feasible use cases use multiple languages to 
>> express their preferences. So, the draft is contradicting this 
>> paragraph. Or I miss something it wants to say that also other 
>> readers could miss. I suggest to delete the last paragraph of 4.
>
> I reworded the note to be more clear.
Yeah, says that we do not bother about selecting multiple languages per 
media, and does not mention our unsolved problem between media.   
Acceptable and understandable now.
>
>>
>>  4. In 5, "The group" is used but not defined. And the discussion is 
>> not needed. "not sufficiently detailed" would be sufficient.
>
> I reworded the text to be more clear.
5 is good now. Fine.
>
>>
>>  5. In 6.2, I suggested to add a sentence: "
>>
>>  Events during the session may influence which language(s) are used,
>>
>>  and the participants are not strictly bound to only use the declared
>>
>>  languages."
>>
>>  I think it is a valid clarification.
>
> Fair enough.  I added a note to this effect.
What you added is on a totally other topic than what I proposed. Yours 
is also relevant.
These additions are only clarifications on use, so maybe not so 
important, but please consider keeping yours and adding my proposal above.

Your says that media may be accepted even if they are not planned to 
contain any agreed language.

Mine says that the negotiation is (of course) not binding for the user 
behavior in the session. If participants negotiated spoken Spanish and 
started in spoken Spanish, but eventually an only English-speaking 
person is include on one side and they all agree on switching to spoken 
English, they are of course free to do so.
>
>>
>>  6. As 6.4 I suggest to insert the "Most preferred language" section 
>> discussed in mail today.
>
> I did not see any such thing.  In which email is this?
>
It was in the beginning of the thread called "awareness to the user in 
slim real-time draft"
and the proposal was to insert this section:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

6.4 Most preferred language

A mechanism is introduced that provides information on the most 
preferred language among all language indications in the session 
description. This is done in order to provide for a definite outcome of 
the negotiation of language in most cases, and thereby an opportunity 
for the call to start in a fruitful way.

The notation for the most preferred language is a plus ('+') character 
added after the language tag in the value of the corresponding language 
attribute. The notation MAY be used independently on both communication 
directions. The order between this indication and the indication for 
advisory versus required is not relevant.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would be glad to see it included, but because of the discussions on 
this topic, it might be better to continue discussing it separately.
>>
>>  7. I suggested a syntax and examples section, but did not provide 
>> wording for it. I still think that that is needed. ( especially for 
>> understanding how the * is used, I remember some comments of 
>> astonishment that it is hooked on at the end of a language tag. )
In video, the language tag for American Sign Language should be 'ase'
Otherwise good. Maybe we should add some words of clarification, but I 
think the examples are good and straightforward and clarify the syntax.


Is my impression right about the asterisk, that it is sufficient to have 
one asterisk anywhere in the humintlang attributes in the whole sdp, and 
that is an advice to not fail the call, regardless of what happens with 
the very media and language that the asterisk is hooked on?
>
> It is consistent with other uses, such as SIP Accept-Language syntax.
>
> It seems useful to have some examples, so I added a section for this.
>
>>
>>  8. I agree with the comment during the meeting, that additions to 
>> the security section with material from the use case document should 
>> be done.
>
> The test in the security considerations in the use cases document is 
> actually a privacy consideration, not a security consideration.  I 
> added a new section for this.
That is often one of the three security aspects included in security 
sections.

You could add, "The sdp negotiation SHOULD therefore be kept confident."
>
>>
>>
>>  These were my immediate reactions. More might come.
>
> Those can be submitted against WGLC or IETF LC.
Thanks, we are definitively converging.

/Gunnar

>
>>
>>  Thanks,
>>
>>
>>  Gunnar
>>
>>
>>
>>  Den 2016-07-20 kl. 11:56, skrev Randall Gellens:
>>
>>>  Version -02 is now available. It addresses all comments. If you 
>>> feel a comment was not correctly addressed, or you have another 
>>> comment, please say so. The group may want to especially look at 
>>> Section 5 ("The existing 'lang' attribute") to be sure the text 
>>> reflect group consensus.
>>>
>>
>>  --
>>  -----------------------------------------
>>  Gunnar Hellström
>>  Omnitor
>>  <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>  +46 708 204 288
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  SLIM mailing list
>>  SLIM@ietf.org
>>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>
>

-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
+46 708 204 288


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<html>
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  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <p>Randall, <br>
    </p>
    <p>thanks for rapid action again,<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Den 2016-07-21 kl. 11:40, skrev Randall
      Gellens:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:p06240605d3b640a8402f@[10.134.253.167]"
      type="cite">Hi Gunar,
      <br>
      <br>
      At 3:01 PM +0200 7/20/16, Gunnar Hellström wrote:
      <br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite"> Randall,
        <br>
        <br>
         Thanks for rapid and thorough action. Most of my comments and
        edit proposals are well covered in -02
        <br>
        <br>
         I have some rapid feedback.
        <br>
        <br>
         1. Check the informational references in 12.2 and delet the
        ones we do not use anymore.
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      Good idea.  Done.
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    Good<br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:p06240605d3b640a8402f@[10.134.253.167]"
      type="cite">
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <br>
         2. In 4 and 6 it is said that we define 'a' media attribute and
        'an' SDP attribute. Consider if we should say 'two' already
        there.
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      I added some clarification here.
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    Good solution<br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:p06240605d3b640a8402f@[10.134.253.167]"
      type="cite">
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <br>
         3. In 4, the lats paragraph ( the paranthesis ) indicates that
        negotiating multiple languages is not feasible. But firstly, the
        caller is described to have the option to offer multiple
        alternatives, and some feasible use cases use multiple languages
        to express their preferences. So, the draft is contradicting
        this paragraph. Or I miss something it wants to say that also
        other readers could miss. I suggest to delete the last paragraph
        of 4.
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      I reworded the note to be more clear.
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    Yeah, says that we do not bother about selecting multiple languages
    per media, and does not mention our unsolved problem between media.
      Acceptable and understandable now. <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:p06240605d3b640a8402f@[10.134.253.167]"
      type="cite">
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <br>
         4. In 5, "The group" is used but not defined. And the
        discussion is not needed. "not sufficiently detailed" would be
        sufficient.
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      I reworded the text to be more clear.
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    5 is good now. Fine. <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:p06240605d3b640a8402f@[10.134.253.167]"
      type="cite">
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <br>
         5. In 6.2, I suggested to add a sentence: "
        <br>
        <br>
         Events during the session may influence which language(s) are
        used,
        <br>
        <br>
         and the participants are not strictly bound to only use the
        declared
        <br>
        <br>
         languages."
        <br>
        <br>
         I think it is a valid clarification.
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      Fair enough.  I added a note to this effect.
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    What you added is on a totally other topic than what I proposed.
    Yours is also relevant. <br>
    These additions are only clarifications on use, so maybe not so
    important, but please consider keeping yours and adding my proposal
    above.<br>
    <br>
    Your says that media may be accepted even if they are not planned to
    contain any agreed language.<br>
    <br>
    Mine says that the negotiation is (of course) not binding for the
    user behavior in the session. If participants negotiated spoken
    Spanish and started in spoken Spanish, but eventually an only
    English-speaking person is include on one side and they all agree on
    switching to spoken English, they are of course free to do so.<br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:p06240605d3b640a8402f@[10.134.253.167]"
      type="cite">
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <br>
         6. As 6.4 I suggest to insert the "Most preferred language"
        section discussed in mail today.
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      I did not see any such thing.  In which email is this?
      <br>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    It was in the beginning of the thread called "awareness to the user
    in slim real-time draft"<br>
    and the proposal was to insert this section:<br>
    <br>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
    <p><span
        style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
        EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
              New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
              EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif">6.4 Most preferred language</font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
    <p><span
        style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
        EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
              New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
              EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif">A mechanism is introduced that provides
                  information on the most preferred language among all
                  language indications in the session description. This
                  is do</font></span></span></font></span></span><span
        style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
        EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
              New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
              EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif"><span
                    style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
                    New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
                    EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                      style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica,
                        Arial, sans-serif"><span
                          style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
                          New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
                          EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                            style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font
                              face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">ne in
                              order to provide for a definite outcome of
                              the negotiation of language in most cases,
                              and thereby an opportunity for the call to
                              start in a fruitful way. <br>
                            </font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
    <p><span
        style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
        New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
        EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
          style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
            sans-serif"><span
              style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
              New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
              EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
                  sans-serif"><span
                    style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
                    New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
                    EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                      style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font face="Helvetica,
                        Arial, sans-serif"><span
                          style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:&quot;Courier
                          New&quot;;
mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
                          EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><span
                            style="mso-spacerun:yes"><font
                              face="Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif">The
                              notation for the most preferred language
                              is a plus ('+') character added after the
                              language tag in the value of the
                              corresponding language attribute. The
                              notation MAY be used independently on both
                              communication directions. The order
                              between this indication and the indication
                              for advisory versus required is not
                              relevant.</font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></font></span></span></p>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
    I would be glad to see it included, but because of the discussions
    on this topic, it might be better to continue discussing it
    separately.<br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:p06240605d3b640a8402f@[10.134.253.167]"
      type="cite">
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <br>
         7. I suggested a syntax and examples section, but did not
        provide wording for it. I still think that that is needed. (
        especially for understanding how the * is used, I remember some
        comments of astonishment that it is hooked on at the end of a
        language tag. )
        <br>
      </blockquote>
    </blockquote>
    In video, the language tag for American Sign Language should be
    'ase'  <br>
    Otherwise good. Maybe we should add some words of clarification, but
    I think the examples are good and straightforward and clarify the
    syntax.  <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    Is my impression right about the asterisk, that it is sufficient to
    have one asterisk anywhere in the humintlang attributes in the whole
    sdp, and that is an advice to not fail the call, regardless of what
    happens with the very media and language that the asterisk is hooked
    on?<br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:p06240605d3b640a8402f@[10.134.253.167]"
      type="cite">
      <br>
      It is consistent with other uses, such as SIP Accept-Language
      syntax.
      <br>
      <br>
      It seems useful to have some examples, so I added a section for
      this.
      <br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <br>
         8. I agree with the comment during the meeting, that additions
        to the security section with material from the use case document
        should be done.
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      The test in the security considerations in the use cases document
      is actually a privacy consideration, not a security
      consideration.  I added a new section for this.
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    That is often one of the three security aspects included in security
    sections. <br>
    <br>
    You could add, "The sdp negotiation SHOULD therefore be kept
    confident." <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:p06240605d3b640a8402f@[10.134.253.167]"
      type="cite">
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <br>
        <br>
         These were my immediate reactions. More might come.
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      Those can be submitted against WGLC or IETF LC.
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    Thanks, we are definitively converging.<br>
    <br>
    /Gunnar<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:p06240605d3b640a8402f@[10.134.253.167]"
      type="cite">
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <br>
         Thanks,
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
         Gunnar
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
         Den 2016-07-20 kl. 11:56, skrev Randall Gellens:
        <br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type="cite"> Version -02 is now available. It
          addresses all comments. If you feel a comment was not
          correctly addressed, or you have another comment, please say
          so. The group may want to especially look at Section 5 ("The
          existing 'lang' attribute") to be sure the text reflect group
          consensus.
          <br>
          <br>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
         --
        <br>
         -----------------------------------------
        <br>
         Gunnar Hellström
        <br>
         Omnitor
        <br>
 <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">&lt;mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se&gt;</a><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>
        <br>
         +46 708 204 288
        <br>
        <br>
         _______________________________________________
        <br>
         SLIM mailing list
        <br>
         <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:SLIM@ietf.org">SLIM@ietf.org</a>
        <br>
         <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a>
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>
+46 708 204 288</pre>
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Subject: Re: [Slim] awareness to the user in the slim real-time draft
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Den 2016-07-21 kl. 11:04, skrev Randall Gellens:
> You want the application to be able to first know what the user 
> prefers across all media and languages, and second, to be able to 
> match what was negotiated with the other end with what the user 
> wants.  I believe you can do that with what we have now.
>
> Consider: the application takes into account the user's preferences 
> across media and languages in deciding what to offer. After the 
> session is established, the application compares what was accepted to 
> the user's preferences across media and languages, determines which 
> combination of the accepted media and languages is most preferred by 
> the user, and displays that information to the user.
It is not sufficient. We have not defined any way to convey e.g. that 
spoken language is preferred over written language.

The called party want to start the conversation with a greeting in the 
language and the modality that the caller prefers ( if that reasonably 
matches the callee capabilities ).

So assume that the caller can use spoken English and written English and 
strongly prefers the spoken English.

These capabilities can both be indicated in the offer but without any 
preference indication .

That leaves the callee without a clue on how to answer to not cause 
initial confusion.

That is the simple case I want a notation for. Just a highest preference 
mark to hook on e.g. to the spoken English indication.

One notation was just proposed in another mail to be included as section 
6.4.

Gunnar
>
> --Randy
>
>
> At 9:15 AM +0200 7/21/16, Gunnar Hellström wrote:
>
>>  Bernard, thanks for trying to explain the resistance.
>>
>>  Den 2016-07-20 kl. 18:52, skrev Bernard Aboba:
>>
>>>  On Jul 20, 2016, at 6:11 PM, Gunnar Hellström 
>>> <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se> wrote:
>>>>  Why don't you want to solve the human problem to start a call in 
>>>> the most effective way.
>>>  [BA] As stated at the meeting, the major question is in what layer 
>>> this functionality belongs.
>>  I guess you mean the whole topic of language negotiation. It is an 
>> application level topic about user information and agreement, with 
>> some influence on call routing and device selection.
>>  If you meant the remaining issues of preference across session, and 
>> grouping, it is the same.
>>>
>>>  In several IETF WGs, including CLUE and now WEBRTC, the decision 
>>> has been made to limit the complexity of the SDP O/A negotiation to 
>>> the bare minimum needed to bring the call up. From there, the 
>>> application can add functionality. This approach "optimizes for the 
>>> common case",  limits the difficulty in implementing the basic 
>>> required SDP and makes it more likely that it will interoperate.
>>  Yes, sdp is becoming hard to manage, when you are supposed to 
>> negotiate SRTP vs RTP, AVPF vs AVP, RTCP vs INFO, multiplexing, ICE 
>> etc and now also language. So, maybe we made the wrong decision to go 
>> this way. We could have defined an XML schema for language and 
>> modality preferences and conveyed it somehow between the parties. But 
>> now we are here with our decision close to WGLC and intend to take 
>> this through.
>>>
>>>  AFAICT, the basic SDP functionality in the draft appears to be 
>>> enough to enable an application to handle media preference on its own.
>>>
>>>  As an example, I believe that every use case can be supported 
>>> within a web application using a modified SIP library without any 
>>> SDP additions beyond what we already have defined.
>>  Do you mean that we now need to add SIP headers for the remaining 
>> information to really sort out what it meant by the limited 
>> indications we provide in SDP.
>>
>>  Something like: modality-preference-send: speech ; 
>> modality-preference-recv: speech
>>
>>  And something similar for SIP-less calls?
>>
>>>
>>>  Yes, the application would need to deal with media preferences but 
>>> most unified communications applications support multiple modes and 
>>> need to handle decisions on media usage already (camera on/off, 
>>> mute, etc.) Adding complexity to the SDP parser might actually make 
>>> it harder for the application, not easier.
>>  The application areas I want to see benefit from this work are wide 
>> and do not have any other common specification fora that can add SIP 
>> or SDP elements. It is for example 3GPP that convey regular calls 
>> with ambition to have interoperability between providers, and it is 
>> for example between SIP providers and ESiNets following NENA or EENA 
>> specs. They all rely on the ground work done in IETF, for selection 
>> into their profiles.
>>
>>  It is possible to make another IETF draft and add the missing parts 
>> there, but it looks unmotivated to break out a small part of the work 
>> like that.
>>
>>  What I want to avoid is this situation:
>>
>>  -Caller calls with indication of English speech reception and 
>> English text reception
>>   Caller prefers speech, but has included text for not scaring off 
>> friends who prefer text. But there is no way to convey this preference.
>>  -Callee has both English speech sending and English text sending 
>> capability.
>>  -Callee has no clue for how to start the call, so just taking a 
>> chance, the callee starts in text, typing "Hi, welcome to my service".
>>  -The caller sees that and feels that it is most polite to start in 
>> the same modality, so the caller thinks it is a bit inconvenient, but 
>> types: " Hi, I want support for a problem. Can we talk?"
>>  -The callee types: "Oh, yes, let us switch to talking" and the the 
>> callee says "Ok , talking now, what is your problem."
>>  - The call continues in speech, using text just for model numbers, 
>> booking numbers URL:s etc in this case.
>>
>>  This is a quite natural development of a call where preference is 
>> not indicated from the beginning, and it adds inconvenience and delay 
>> compared to what it could have been if there was a way to convey 
>> modality preference.
>>
>>  I think it is small enough feature to go into the humintlang draft 
>> and general enough to not be pushed to be solved differently for each 
>> application.
>>
>>  A thought of mine was that the asterisk-notation for "do not fail" 
>> was not really needed and we could move that notation to point out 
>> the most preferred modality. But we heard opposition to that in the 
>> meeting, so now we are back to the need to add something small but 
>> important.
>>
>>  /Gunnar
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>  SLIM mailing list
>>>  SLIM@ietf.org
>>>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>>
>>  --
>>  -----------------------------------------
>>  Gunnar Hellström
>>  Omnitor
>>  gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>  +46 708 204 288
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  SLIM mailing list
>>  SLIM@ietf.org
>>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>
>

-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
+46 708 204 288


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Subject: Re: [Slim] awareness to the user in the slim real-time draft
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At 2:53 PM +0200 7/21/16, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m wrote:

>  Den 2016-07-21 kl. 11:04, skrev Randall Gellens:
>>  You want the application to be able to first=20
>> know what the user prefers across all media=20
>> and languages, and second, to be able to match=20
>> what was negotiated with the other end with=20
>> what the user wants.  I believe you can do=20
>> that with what we have now.
>>
>>  Consider: the application takes into account=20
>> the user's preferences across media and=20
>> languages in deciding what to offer. After the=20
>> session is established, the application=20
>> compares what was accepted to the user's=20
>> preferences across media and languages,=20
>> determines which combination of the accepted=20
>> media and languages is most preferred by the=20
>> user, and displays that information to the=20
>> user.
>  It is not sufficient. We have not defined any=20
> way to convey e.g. that spoken language is=20
> preferred over written language.

Conveying the information from the application to=20
the user is out of scope.  Conveying the=20
information from one client to another is not=20
needed.

>
>  The called party want to start the conversation=20
> with a greeting in the language and the=20
> modality that the caller prefers ( if that=20
> reasonably matches the callee capabilities ).
>
>  So assume that the caller can use spoken=20
> English and written English and strongly=20
> prefers the spoken English.
>
>  These capabilities can both be indicated in the=20
> offer but without any preference indication .
>
>  That leaves the callee without a clue on how to=20
> answer to not cause initial confusion.

The callee answers with whichever of the=20
requested media and language streams it can=20
support.

>
>  That is the simple case I want a notation for.=20
> Just a highest preference mark to hook on e.g.=20
> to the spoken English indication.
>
>  One notation was just proposed in another mail to be included as section =
6.4.
>
>  Gunnar
>>
>>  --Randy
>>
>>
>>  At 9:15 AM +0200 7/21/16, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m wrote:
>>
>>>   Bernard, thanks for trying to explain the resistance.
>>>
>>>   Den 2016-07-20 kl. 18:52, skrev Bernard Aboba:
>>>
>>>>   On Jul 20, 2016, at 6:11 PM, Gunnar=20
>>>> Hellstr=F6m <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>=20
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>   Why don't you want to solve the human=20
>>>>> problem to start a call in the most=20
>>>>> effective way.
>>>>   [BA] As stated at the meeting, the major=20
>>>> question is in what layer this functionality=20
>>>> belongs.
>>>   I guess you mean the whole topic of language=20
>>> negotiation. It is an application level topic=20
>>> about user information and agreement, with=20
>>> some influence on call routing and device=20
>>> selection.
>>>   If you meant the remaining issues of=20
>>> preference across session, and grouping, it=20
>>> is the same.
>>>>
>>>>   In several IETF WGs, including CLUE and now=20
>>>> WEBRTC, the decision has been made to limit=20
>>>> the complexity of the SDP O/A negotiation to=20
>>>> the bare minimum needed to bring the call=20
>>>> up. From there, the application can add=20
>>>> functionality. This approach "optimizes for=20
>>>> the common case",  limits the difficulty in=20
>>>> implementing the basic required SDP and=20
>>>> makes it more likely that it will=20
>>>> interoperate.
>>>   Yes, sdp is becoming hard to manage, when=20
>>> you are supposed to negotiate SRTP vs RTP,=20
>>> AVPF vs AVP, RTCP vs INFO, multiplexing, ICE=20
>>> etc and now also language. So, maybe we made=20
>>> the wrong decision to go this way. We could=20
>>> have defined an XML schema for language and=20
>>> modality preferences and conveyed it somehow=20
>>> between the parties. But now we are here with=20
>>> our decision close to WGLC and intend to take=20
>>> this through.
>>>>
>>>>   AFAICT, the basic SDP functionality in the=20
>>>> draft appears to be enough to enable an=20
>>>> application to handle media preference on=20
>>>> its own.
>>>>
>>>>   As an example, I believe that every use=20
>>>> case can be supported within a web=20
>>>> application using a modified SIP library=20
>>>> without any SDP additions beyond what we=20
>>>> already have defined.
>>>   Do you mean that we now need to add SIP=20
>>> headers for the remaining information to=20
>>> really sort out what it meant by the limited=20
>>> indications we provide in SDP.
>>>
>>>   Something like: modality-preference-send:=20
>>> speech ; modality-preference-recv: speech
>>>
>>>   And something similar for SIP-less calls?
>>>
>>>>
>>>>   Yes, the application would need to deal=20
>>>> with media preferences but most unified=20
>>>> communications applications support multiple=20
>>>> modes and need to handle decisions on media=20
>>>> usage already (camera on/off, mute, etc.)=20
>>>> Adding complexity to the SDP parser might=20
>>>> actually make it harder for the application,=20
>>>> not easier.
>>>   The application areas I want to see benefit=20
>>> from this work are wide and do not have any=20
>>> other common specification fora that can add=20
>>> SIP or SDP elements. It is for example 3GPP=20
>>> that convey regular calls with ambition to=20
>>> have interoperability between providers, and=20
>>> it is for example between SIP providers and=20
>>> ESiNets following NENA or EENA specs. They=20
>>> all rely on the ground work done in IETF, for=20
>>> selection into their profiles.
>>>
>>>   It is possible to make another IETF draft=20
>>> and add the missing parts there, but it looks=20
>>> unmotivated to break out a small part of the=20
>>> work like that.
>>>
>>>   What I want to avoid is this situation:
>>>
>>>   -Caller calls with indication of English=20
>>> speech reception and English text reception
>>>    Caller prefers speech, but has included=20
>>> text for not scaring off friends who prefer=20
>>> text. But there is no way to convey this=20
>>> preference.
>>>   -Callee has both English speech sending and=20
>>> English text sending capability.
>>>   -Callee has no clue for how to start the=20
>>> call, so just taking a chance, the callee=20
>>> starts in text, typing "Hi, welcome to my=20
>>> service".
>>>   -The caller sees that and feels that it is=20
>>> most polite to start in the same modality, so=20
>>> the caller thinks it is a bit inconvenient,=20
>>> but types: " Hi, I want support for a=20
>>> problem. Can we talk?"
>>>   -The callee types: "Oh, yes, let us switch=20
>>> to talking" and the the callee says "Ok ,=20
>>> talking now, what is your problem."
>>>   - The call continues in speech, using text=20
>>> just for model numbers, booking numbers URL:s=20
>>> etc in this case.
>>>
>>>   This is a quite natural development of a=20
>>> call where preference is not indicated from=20
>>> the beginning, and it adds inconvenience and=20
>>> delay compared to what it could have been if=20
>>> there was a way to convey modality preference.
>>>
>>>   I think it is small enough feature to go=20
>>> into the humintlang draft and general enough=20
>>> to not be pushed to be solved differently for=20
>>> each application.
>>>
>>>   A thought of mine was that the=20
>>> asterisk-notation for "do not fail" was not=20
>>> really needed and we could move that notation=20
>>> to point out the most preferred modality. But=20
>>> we heard opposition to that in the meeting,=20
>>> so now we are back to the need to add=20
>>> something small but important.
>>>
>>>   /Gunnar
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   _______________________________________________
>>>>   SLIM mailing list
>>>>   SLIM@ietf.org
>>>>   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>>>
>>>   --
>>>   -----------------------------------------
>>>   Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
>>>   Omnitor
>>>   gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>>   +46 708 204 288
>>>
>>>   _______________________________________________
>>>   SLIM mailing list
>>>   SLIM@ietf.org
>>>   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>>
>>
>
>  --
>  -----------------------------------------
>  Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
>  Omnitor
>  gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>  +46 708 204 288


-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
Those were my children being slaughtered.
        --Donald Burr, on the death of People Express.


From nobody Thu Jul 21 06:29:14 2016
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Subject: Re: [Slim] I-D Action: draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-02.txt
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Hi Gunnar,

I do not believe any further text changes are=20
needed.  If you disagree, please raise the issue=20
as a WGLC ticket and the group can decide how to=20
proceed.

Thanks,

--Randy

At 2:39 PM +0200 7/21/16, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m wrote:

>  Randall,
>
>  thanks for rapid action again,
>
>
>  Den 2016-07-21 kl. 11:40, skrev Randall Gellens:
>
>>  Hi Gunar,
>>
>>  At 3:01 PM +0200 7/20/16, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m wrote:
>>
>>>  Randall,
>>>
>>>  Thanks for rapid and thorough action. Most of=20
>>> my comments and edit proposals are well=20
>>> covered in -02
>>>
>>>  I have some rapid feedback.
>>>
>>>  1. Check the informational references in 12.2=20
>>> and delet the ones we do not use anymore.
>>>
>>
>>  Good idea. Done.
>>
>  Good
>
>>
>>>
>>>  2. In 4 and 6 it is said that we define 'a'=20
>>> media attribute and 'an' SDP attribute.=20
>>> Consider if we should say 'two' already there.
>>>
>>
>>  I added some clarification here.
>>
>  Good solution
>
>>
>>>
>>>  3. In 4, the lats paragraph ( the paranthesis=20
>>> ) indicates that negotiating multiple=20
>>> languages is not feasible. But firstly, the=20
>>> caller is described to have the option to=20
>>> offer multiple alternatives, and some=20
>>> feasible use cases use multiple languages to=20
>>> express their preferences. So, the draft is=20
>>> contradicting this paragraph. Or I miss=20
>>> something it wants to say that also other=20
>>> readers could miss. I suggest to delete the=20
>>> last paragraph of 4.
>>>
>>
>>  I reworded the note to be more clear.
>>
>  Yeah, says that we do not bother about=20
> selecting multiple languages per media, and=20
> does not mention our unsolved problem between=20
> media. Acceptable and understandable now.
>
>>
>>>
>>>  4. In 5, "The group" is used but not defined.=20
>>> And the discussion is not needed. "not=20
>>> sufficiently detailed" would be sufficient.
>>>
>>
>>  I reworded the text to be more clear.
>>
>  5 is good now. Fine.
>
>>
>>>
>>>  5. In 6.2, I suggested to add a sentence: "
>>>
>>>  Events during the session may influence which language(s) are used,
>>>
>>>  and the participants are not strictly bound to only use the declared
>>>
>>>  languages."
>>>
>>>  I think it is a valid clarification.
>>>
>>
>>  Fair enough. I added a note to this effect.
>>
>  What you added is on a totally other topic than=20
> what I proposed. Yours is also relevant.
>  These additions are only clarifications on use,=20
> so maybe not so important, but please consider=20
> keeping yours and adding my proposal above.
>
>  Your says that media may be accepted even if=20
> they are not planned to contain any agreed=20
> language.
>
>  Mine says that the negotiation is (of course)=20
> not binding for the user behavior in the=20
> session. If participants negotiated spoken=20
> Spanish and started in spoken Spanish, but=20
> eventually an only English-speaking person is=20
> include on one side and they all agree on=20
> switching to spoken English, they are of course=20
> free to do so.
>
>>
>>>
>>>  6. As 6.4 I suggest to insert the "Most=20
>>> preferred language" section discussed in mail=20
>>> today.
>>>
>>
>>  I did not see any such thing. In which email is this?
>>
>  It was in the beginning of the thread called=20
> "awareness to the user in slim real-time draft"
>  and the proposal was to insert this section:
>
>=20
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>  6.4 Most preferred language
>
>  A mechanism is introduced that provides=20
> information on the most preferred language=20
> among all language indications in the session=20
> description. This is done in order to provide=20
> for a definite outcome of the negotiation of=20
> language in most cases, and thereby an=20
> opportunity for the call to start in a fruitful=20
> way.
>
>  The notation for the most preferred language is=20
> a plus ('+') character added after the language=20
> tag in the value of the corresponding language=20
> attribute. The notation MAY be used=20
> independently on both communication directions.=20
> The order between this indication and the=20
> indication for advisory versus required is not=20
> relevant.
>
>=20
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  I would be glad to see it included, but because=20
> of the discussions on this topic, it might be=20
> better to continue discussing it separately.
>
>>>
>>>  7. I suggested a syntax and examples section,=20
>>> but did not provide wording for it. I still=20
>>> think that that is needed. ( especially for=20
>>> understanding how the * is used, I remember=20
>>> some comments of astonishment that it is=20
>>> hooked on at the end of a language tag. )
>>>
>  In video, the language tag for American Sign Language should be 'ase'
>  Otherwise good. Maybe we should add some words=20
> of clarification, but I think the examples are=20
> good and straightforward and clarify the syntax.
>
>
>  Is my impression right about the asterisk, that=20
> it is sufficient to have one asterisk anywhere=20
> in the humintlang attributes in the whole sdp,=20
> and that is an advice to not fail the call,=20
> regardless of what happens with the very media=20
> and language that the asterisk is hooked on?
>
>>
>>  It is consistent with other uses, such as SIP Accept-Language syntax.
>>
>>  It seems useful to have some examples, so I added a section for this.
>>
>>>
>>>  8. I agree with the comment during the=20
>>> meeting, that additions to the security=20
>>> section with material from the use case=20
>>> document should be done.
>>>
>>
>>  The test in the security considerations in the=20
>> use cases document is actually a privacy=20
>> consideration, not a security consideration. I=20
>> added a new section for this.
>>
>  That is often one of the three security aspects=20
> included in security sections.
>
>  You could add, "The sdp negotiation SHOULD therefore be kept confident."
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  These were my immediate reactions. More might come.
>>>
>>
>>  Those can be submitted against WGLC or IETF LC.
>>
>  Thanks, we are definitively converging.
>
>  /Gunnar
>
>>
>>>
>>>  Thanks,
>>>
>>>
>>>  Gunnar
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Den 2016-07-20 kl. 11:56, skrev Randall Gellens:
>>>
>>>>  Version -02 is now available. It addresses=20
>>>> all comments. If you feel a comment was not=20
>>>> correctly addressed, or you have another=20
>>>> comment, please say so. The group may want=20
>>>> to especially look at Section 5 ("The=20
>>>> existing 'lang' attribute") to be sure the=20
>>>> text reflect group consensus.
>>>>
>>>
>>>  --
>>>  -----------------------------------------
>>>  Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
>>>  Omnitor
>>>=20
>>> <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se><mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>=
<mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>>  +46 708 204 288
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>  SLIM mailing list
>>>  <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>SLIM@ietf.org
>>>=20
>>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>https://www.ietf.org/mailman=
/listinfo/slim
>>>
>>
>>
>
>  --
>  -----------------------------------------
>  Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
>  Omnitor
>  <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>  +46 708 204 288
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  SLIM mailing list
>  SLIM@ietf.org
>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim


-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
All generalizations are false, including this one.


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Subject: Re: [Slim] awareness to the user in the slim real-time draft
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Den 2016-07-21 kl. 15:09, skrev Randall Gellens:

> At 2:53 PM +0200 7/21/16, Gunnar Hellström wrote:
>
>>  Den 2016-07-21 kl. 11:04, skrev Randall Gellens:
>>>  You want the application to be able to first know what the user 
>>> prefers across all media and languages, and second, to be able to 
>>> match what was negotiated with the other end with what the user 
>>> wants.  I believe you can do that with what we have now.
>>>
>>>  Consider: the application takes into account the user's preferences 
>>> across media and languages in deciding what to offer. After the 
>>> session is established, the application compares what was accepted 
>>> to the user's preferences across media and languages, determines 
>>> which combination of the accepted media and languages is most 
>>> preferred by the user, and displays that information to the user.
>>  It is not sufficient. We have not defined any way to convey e.g. 
>> that spoken language is preferred over written language.
>
> Conveying the information from the application to the user is out of 
> scope.  Conveying the information from one client to another is not 
> needed.
Why would just this preference not be needed to convey to the other client?
Why do not my examples work to make you understand that without this 
feature, the call has a risk to start with confusion.  ( and it does 
today, because of lack of this feature. )
>
>>
>>  The called party want to start the conversation with a greeting in 
>> the language and the modality that the caller prefers ( if that 
>> reasonably matches the callee capabilities ).
>>
>>  So assume that the caller can use spoken English and written English 
>> and strongly prefers the spoken English.
>>
>>  These capabilities can both be indicated in the offer but without 
>> any preference indication .
>>
>>  That leaves the callee without a clue on how to answer to not cause 
>> initial confusion.
>
> The callee answers with whichever of the requested media and language 
> streams it can support.
And if the one that is least preferred by the caller is selected, part 
of the call or the whole call may be conducted in a modality that is not 
the best one, just because we did not include the possibility to convey 
which one is preferred by the other party.

>
>>
>>  That is the simple case I want a notation for. Just a highest 
>> preference mark to hook on e.g. to the spoken English indication.
>>
>>  One notation was just proposed in another mail to be included as 
>> section 6.4.
>>
>>  Gunnar
>>>
>>>  --Randy
>>>
>>>
>>>  At 9:15 AM +0200 7/21/16, Gunnar Hellström wrote:
>>>
>>>>   Bernard, thanks for trying to explain the resistance.
>>>>
>>>>   Den 2016-07-20 kl. 18:52, skrev Bernard Aboba:
>>>>
>>>>>   On Jul 20, 2016, at 6:11 PM, Gunnar Hellström 
>>>>> <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se> wrote:
>>>>>>   Why don't you want to solve the human problem to start a call 
>>>>>> in the most effective way.
>>>>>   [BA] As stated at the meeting, the major question is in what 
>>>>> layer this functionality belongs.
>>>>   I guess you mean the whole topic of language negotiation. It is 
>>>> an application level topic about user information and agreement, 
>>>> with some influence on call routing and device selection.
>>>>   If you meant the remaining issues of preference across session, 
>>>> and grouping, it is the same.
>>>>>
>>>>>   In several IETF WGs, including CLUE and now WEBRTC, the decision 
>>>>> has been made to limit the complexity of the SDP O/A negotiation 
>>>>> to the bare minimum needed to bring the call up. From there, the 
>>>>> application can add functionality. This approach "optimizes for 
>>>>> the common case",  limits the difficulty in implementing the basic 
>>>>> required SDP and makes it more likely that it will interoperate.
>>>>   Yes, sdp is becoming hard to manage, when you are supposed to 
>>>> negotiate SRTP vs RTP, AVPF vs AVP, RTCP vs INFO, multiplexing, ICE 
>>>> etc and now also language. So, maybe we made the wrong decision to 
>>>> go this way. We could have defined an XML schema for language and 
>>>> modality preferences and conveyed it somehow between the parties. 
>>>> But now we are here with our decision close to WGLC and intend to 
>>>> take this through.
>>>>>
>>>>>   AFAICT, the basic SDP functionality in the draft appears to be 
>>>>> enough to enable an application to handle media preference on its 
>>>>> own.
>>>>>
>>>>>   As an example, I believe that every use case can be supported 
>>>>> within a web application using a modified SIP library without any 
>>>>> SDP additions beyond what we already have defined.
>>>>   Do you mean that we now need to add SIP headers for the remaining 
>>>> information to really sort out what it meant by the limited 
>>>> indications we provide in SDP.
>>>>
>>>>   Something like: modality-preference-send: speech ; 
>>>> modality-preference-recv: speech
>>>>
>>>>   And something similar for SIP-less calls?
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   Yes, the application would need to deal with media preferences 
>>>>> but most unified communications applications support multiple 
>>>>> modes and need to handle decisions on media usage already (camera 
>>>>> on/off, mute, etc.) Adding complexity to the SDP parser might 
>>>>> actually make it harder for the application, not easier.
>>>>   The application areas I want to see benefit from this work are 
>>>> wide and do not have any other common specification fora that can 
>>>> add SIP or SDP elements. It is for example 3GPP that convey regular 
>>>> calls with ambition to have interoperability between providers, and 
>>>> it is for example between SIP providers and ESiNets following NENA 
>>>> or EENA specs. They all rely on the ground work done in IETF, for 
>>>> selection into their profiles.
>>>>
>>>>   It is possible to make another IETF draft and add the missing 
>>>> parts there, but it looks unmotivated to break out a small part of 
>>>> the work like that.
>>>>
>>>>   What I want to avoid is this situation:
>>>>
>>>>   -Caller calls with indication of English speech reception and 
>>>> English text reception
>>>>    Caller prefers speech, but has included text for not scaring off 
>>>> friends who prefer text. But there is no way to convey this 
>>>> preference.
>>>>   -Callee has both English speech sending and English text sending 
>>>> capability.
>>>>   -Callee has no clue for how to start the call, so just taking a 
>>>> chance, the callee starts in text, typing "Hi, welcome to my service".
>>>>   -The caller sees that and feels that it is most polite to start 
>>>> in the same modality, so the caller thinks it is a bit 
>>>> inconvenient, but types: " Hi, I want support for a problem. Can we 
>>>> talk?"
>>>>   -The callee types: "Oh, yes, let us switch to talking" and the 
>>>> the callee says "Ok , talking now, what is your problem."
>>>>   - The call continues in speech, using text just for model 
>>>> numbers, booking numbers URL:s etc in this case.
>>>>
>>>>   This is a quite natural development of a call where preference is 
>>>> not indicated from the beginning, and it adds inconvenience and 
>>>> delay compared to what it could have been if there was a way to 
>>>> convey modality preference.
>>>>
>>>>   I think it is small enough feature to go into the humintlang 
>>>> draft and general enough to not be pushed to be solved differently 
>>>> for each application.
>>>>
>>>>   A thought of mine was that the asterisk-notation for "do not 
>>>> fail" was not really needed and we could move that notation to 
>>>> point out the most preferred modality. But we heard opposition to 
>>>> that in the meeting, so now we are back to the need to add 
>>>> something small but important.
>>>>
>>>>   /Gunnar
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   _______________________________________________
>>>>>   SLIM mailing list
>>>>>   SLIM@ietf.org
>>>>>   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>>>>
>>>>   --
>>>>   -----------------------------------------
>>>>   Gunnar Hellström
>>>>   Omnitor
>>>>   gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>>>   +46 708 204 288
>>>>
>>>>   _______________________________________________
>>>>   SLIM mailing list
>>>>   SLIM@ietf.org
>>>>   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>>>
>>>
>>
>>  --
>>  -----------------------------------------
>>  Gunnar Hellström
>>  Omnitor
>>  gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>  +46 708 204 288
>
>

-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
+46 708 204 288


From nobody Thu Jul 21 06:53:32 2016
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To: Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>, slim@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Slim] I-D Action: draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-02.txt
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Den 2016-07-21 kl. 15:29, skrev Randall Gellens:
> Hi Gunnar,
>
> I do not believe any further text changes are needed.  If you 
> disagree, please raise the issue as a WGLC ticket and the group can 
> decide how to proceed.
You should correct the language tag in the example for American Sign 
Language in video .  it is 'ase' , not 'sgn-US' ( sgn-US was used before 
but was depreciated in 2009 )

And while you are in that section, I suggest that you add an example for 
text as well so that we have representation of all media that have 
implicit modalities.

m=text 45020 RTP/AVP 103 104
a=humintlang-send:gr
a=humintlang-recv:gr

Please also answer my question below on use of the asterisk.

Thanks,
Gunnar




>
> Thanks,
>
> --Randy
>
> At 2:39 PM +0200 7/21/16, Gunnar Hellström wrote:
>
>>  Randall,
>>
>>  thanks for rapid action again,
>>
>>
>>  Den 2016-07-21 kl. 11:40, skrev Randall Gellens:
>>
>>>  Hi Gunar,
>>>
>>>  At 3:01 PM +0200 7/20/16, Gunnar Hellström wrote:
>>>
>>>>  Randall,
>>>>
>>>>  Thanks for rapid and thorough action. Most of my comments and edit 
>>>> proposals are well covered in -02
>>>>
>>>>  I have some rapid feedback.
>>>>
>>>>  1. Check the informational references in 12.2 and delet the ones 
>>>> we do not use anymore.
>>>>
>>>
>>>  Good idea. Done.
>>>
>>  Good
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>  2. In 4 and 6 it is said that we define 'a' media attribute and 
>>>> 'an' SDP attribute. Consider if we should say 'two' already there.
>>>>
>>>
>>>  I added some clarification here.
>>>
>>  Good solution
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>  3. In 4, the lats paragraph ( the paranthesis ) indicates that 
>>>> negotiating multiple languages is not feasible. But firstly, the 
>>>> caller is described to have the option to offer multiple 
>>>> alternatives, and some feasible use cases use multiple languages to 
>>>> express their preferences. So, the draft is contradicting this 
>>>> paragraph. Or I miss something it wants to say that also other 
>>>> readers could miss. I suggest to delete the last paragraph of 4.
>>>>
>>>
>>>  I reworded the note to be more clear.
>>>
>>  Yeah, says that we do not bother about selecting multiple languages 
>> per media, and does not mention our unsolved problem between media. 
>> Acceptable and understandable now.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>  4. In 5, "The group" is used but not defined. And the discussion 
>>>> is not needed. "not sufficiently detailed" would be sufficient.
>>>>
>>>
>>>  I reworded the text to be more clear.
>>>
>>  5 is good now. Fine.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>  5. In 6.2, I suggested to add a sentence: "
>>>>
>>>>  Events during the session may influence which language(s) are used,
>>>>
>>>>  and the participants are not strictly bound to only use the declared
>>>>
>>>>  languages."
>>>>
>>>>  I think it is a valid clarification.
>>>>
>>>
>>>  Fair enough. I added a note to this effect.
>>>
>>  What you added is on a totally other topic than what I proposed. 
>> Yours is also relevant.
>>  These additions are only clarifications on use, so maybe not so 
>> important, but please consider keeping yours and adding my proposal 
>> above.
>>
>>  Your says that media may be accepted even if they are not planned to 
>> contain any agreed language.
>>
>>  Mine says that the negotiation is (of course) not binding for the 
>> user behavior in the session. If participants negotiated spoken 
>> Spanish and started in spoken Spanish, but eventually an only 
>> English-speaking person is include on one side and they all agree on 
>> switching to spoken English, they are of course free to do so.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>  6. As 6.4 I suggest to insert the "Most preferred language" 
>>>> section discussed in mail today.
>>>>
>>>
>>>  I did not see any such thing. In which email is this?
>>>
>>  It was in the beginning of the thread called "awareness to the user 
>> in slim real-time draft"
>>  and the proposal was to insert this section:
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>
>>
>>  6.4 Most preferred language
>>
>>  A mechanism is introduced that provides information on the most 
>> preferred language among all language indications in the session 
>> description. This is done in order to provide for a definite outcome 
>> of the negotiation of language in most cases, and thereby an 
>> opportunity for the call to start in a fruitful way.
>>
>>  The notation for the most preferred language is a plus ('+') 
>> character added after the language tag in the value of the 
>> corresponding language attribute. The notation MAY be used 
>> independently on both communication directions. The order between 
>> this indication and the indication for advisory versus required is 
>> not relevant.
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>
>>  I would be glad to see it included, but because of the discussions 
>> on this topic, it might be better to continue discussing it separately.
>>
>>>>
>>>>  7. I suggested a syntax and examples section, but did not provide 
>>>> wording for it. I still think that that is needed. ( especially for 
>>>> understanding how the * is used, I remember some comments of 
>>>> astonishment that it is hooked on at the end of a language tag. )
>>>>
>>  In video, the language tag for American Sign Language should be 'ase'
>>  Otherwise good. Maybe we should add some words of clarification, but 
>> I think the examples are good and straightforward and clarify the 
>> syntax.
>>
>>
>>  Is my impression right about the asterisk, that it is sufficient to 
>> have one asterisk anywhere in the humintlang attributes in the whole 
>> sdp, and that is an advice to not fail the call, regardless of what 
>> happens with the very media and language that the asterisk is hooked on?
>>
>>>
>>>  It is consistent with other uses, such as SIP Accept-Language syntax.
>>>
>>>  It seems useful to have some examples, so I added a section for this.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>  8. I agree with the comment during the meeting, that additions to 
>>>> the security section with material from the use case document 
>>>> should be done.
>>>>
>>>
>>>  The test in the security considerations in the use cases document 
>>> is actually a privacy consideration, not a security consideration. I 
>>> added a new section for this.
>>>
>>  That is often one of the three security aspects included in security 
>> sections.
>>
>>  You could add, "The sdp negotiation SHOULD therefore be kept 
>> confident."
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  These were my immediate reactions. More might come.
>>>>
>>>
>>>  Those can be submitted against WGLC or IETF LC.
>>>
>>  Thanks, we are definitively converging.
>>
>>  /Gunnar
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Thanks,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Gunnar
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Den 2016-07-20 kl. 11:56, skrev Randall Gellens:
>>>>
>>>>>  Version -02 is now available. It addresses all comments. If you 
>>>>> feel a comment was not correctly addressed, or you have another 
>>>>> comment, please say so. The group may want to especially look at 
>>>>> Section 5 ("The existing 'lang' attribute") to be sure the text 
>>>>> reflect group consensus.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  --
>>>>  -----------------------------------------
>>>>  Gunnar Hellström
>>>>  Omnitor
>>>>
>>>> <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se><mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se><mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se 
>>>>
>>>>  +46 708 204 288
>>>>
>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>  SLIM mailing list
>>>>  <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>SLIM@ietf.org
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>  --
>>  -----------------------------------------
>>  Gunnar Hellström
>>  Omnitor
>>  <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>  +46 708 204 288
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  SLIM mailing list
>>  SLIM@ietf.org
>>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>
>

-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
+46 708 204 288


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Subject: Re: [Slim] awareness to the user in the slim real-time draft
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At 3:38 PM +0200 7/21/16, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m wrote:

>  Den 2016-07-21 kl. 15:09, skrev Randall Gellens:
>
>>  At 2:53 PM +0200 7/21/16, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m wrote:
>>
>>>   Den 2016-07-21 kl. 11:04, skrev Randall Gellens:
>>>>   You want the application to be able to=20
>>>> first know what the user prefers across all=20
>>>> media and languages, and second, to be able=20
>>>> to match what was negotiated with the other=20
>>>> end with what the user wants.  I believe you=20
>>>> can do that with what we have now.
>>>>
>>>>   Consider: the application takes into=20
>>>> account the user's preferences across media=20
>>>> and languages in deciding what to offer.=20
>>>> After the session is established, the=20
>>>> application compares what was accepted to=20
>>>> the user's preferences across media and=20
>>>> languages, determines which combination of=20
>>>> the accepted media and languages is most=20
>>>> preferred by the user, and displays that=20
>>>> information to the user.
>>>   It is not sufficient. We have not defined=20
>>> any way to convey e.g. that spoken language=20
>>> is preferred over written language.
>>
>>  Conveying the information from the application=20
>> to the user is out of scope.  Conveying the=20
>> information from one client to another is not=20
>> needed.
>  Why would just this preference not be needed to convey to the other clien=
t?

Because this preference is needed to be conveyed=20
between endpoints, at least in the current=20
document; it can be handled by the client.=20
Conveying it would perhaps be more efficient=20
because it could avoid setting up media streams=20
that won't be used, but this is not sufficient=20
reason to add complexity to the current document.=20
If you want to propose a new draft that does=20
convey this, please do.

>  Why do not my examples work to make you=20
> understand that without this feature, the call=20
> has a risk to start with confusion.  ( and it=20
> does today, because of lack of this feature. )

=46undamentally, the call gets set up and the=20
channels with media and language are established,=20
so it's a success.  How the clients choose to=20
convey information to the user to avoid confusion=20
is their business.

>>
>>>
>>>   The called party want to start the=20
>>> conversation with a greeting in the language=20
>>> and the modality that the caller prefers ( if=20
>>> that reasonably matches the callee=20
>>> capabilities ).
>>>
>>>   So assume that the caller can use spoken=20
>>> English and written English and strongly=20
>>> prefers the spoken English.
>>>
>>>   These capabilities can both be indicated in=20
>>> the offer but without any preference=20
>>> indication .
>>>
>>>   That leaves the callee without a clue on how=20
>>> to answer to not cause initial confusion.
>>
>>  The callee answers with whichever of the=20
>> requested media and language streams it can=20
>> support.
>  And if the one that is least preferred by the=20
> caller is selected, part of the call or the=20
> whole call may be conducted in a modality that=20
> is not the best one, just because we did not=20
> include the possibility to convey which one is=20
> preferred by the other party.

The callee will answer the offer with all media=20
and languages it can, and the endpoints will know=20
what was set up.  How they convey this to the=20
user so the user knows what is the most preferred=20
modality and language is its business.  I listed=20
the steps a client goes through in my previous=20
email.


>
>>
>>>
>>>   That is the simple case I want a notation=20
>>> for. Just a highest preference mark to hook=20
>>> on e.g. to the spoken English indication.
>>>
>>>   One notation was just proposed in another=20
>>> mail to be included as section 6.4.
>>>
>>>   Gunnar
>>>>
>>>>   --Randy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   At 9:15 AM +0200 7/21/16, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>    Bernard, thanks for trying to explain the resistance.
>>>>>
>>>>>    Den 2016-07-20 kl. 18:52, skrev Bernard Aboba:
>>>>>
>>>>>>    On Jul 20, 2016, at 6:11 PM, Gunnar=20
>>>>>> Hellstr=F6m <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>=20
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>    Why don't you want to solve the human=20
>>>>>>> problem to start a call in the most=20
>>>>>>> effective way.
>>>>>>    [BA] As stated at the meeting, the major=20
>>>>>> question is in what layer this=20
>>>>>> functionality belongs.
>>>>>    I guess you mean the whole topic of=20
>>>>> language negotiation. It is an application=20
>>>>> level topic about user information and=20
>>>>> agreement, with some influence on call=20
>>>>> routing and device selection.
>>>>>    If you meant the remaining issues of=20
>>>>> preference across session, and grouping, it=20
>>>>> is the same.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    In several IETF WGs, including CLUE and=20
>>>>>> now WEBRTC, the decision has been made to=20
>>>>>> limit the complexity of the SDP O/A=20
>>>>>> negotiation to the bare minimum needed to=20
>>>>>> bring the call up. From there, the=20
>>>>>> application can add functionality. This=20
>>>>>> approach "optimizes for the common case",=20
>>>>>> limits the difficulty in implementing the=20
>>>>>> basic required SDP and makes it more=20
>>>>>> likely that it will interoperate.
>>>>>    Yes, sdp is becoming hard to manage, when=20
>>>>> you are supposed to negotiate SRTP vs RTP,=20
>>>>> AVPF vs AVP, RTCP vs INFO, multiplexing,=20
>>>>> ICE etc and now also language. So, maybe we=20
>>>>> made the wrong decision to go this way. We=20
>>>>> could have defined an XML schema for=20
>>>>> language and modality preferences and=20
>>>>> conveyed it somehow between the parties.=20
>>>>> But now we are here with our decision close=20
>>>>> to WGLC and intend to take this through.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    AFAICT, the basic SDP functionality in=20
>>>>>> the draft appears to be enough to enable=20
>>>>>> an application to handle media preference=20
>>>>>> on its own.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    As an example, I believe that every use=20
>>>>>> case can be supported within a web=20
>>>>>> application using a modified SIP library=20
>>>>>> without any SDP additions beyond what we=20
>>>>>> already have defined.
>>>>>    Do you mean that we now need to add SIP=20
>>>>> headers for the remaining information to=20
>>>>> really sort out what it meant by the=20
>>>>> limited indications we provide in SDP.
>>>>>
>>>>>    Something like: modality-preference-send:=20
>>>>> speech ; modality-preference-recv: speech
>>>>>
>>>>>    And something similar for SIP-less calls?
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Yes, the application would need to deal=20
>>>>>> with media preferences but most unified=20
>>>>>> communications applications support=20
>>>>>> multiple modes and need to handle=20
>>>>>> decisions on media usage already (camera=20
>>>>>> on/off, mute, etc.) Adding complexity to=20
>>>>>> the SDP parser might actually make it=20
>>>>>> harder for the application, not easier.
>>>>>    The application areas I want to see=20
>>>>> benefit from this work are wide and do not=20
>>>>> have any other common specification fora=20
>>>>> that can add SIP or SDP elements. It is for=20
>>>>> example 3GPP that convey regular calls with=20
>>>>> ambition to have interoperability between=20
>>>>> providers, and it is for example between=20
>>>>> SIP providers and ESiNets following NENA or=20
>>>>> EENA specs. They all rely on the ground=20
>>>>> work done in IETF, for selection into their=20
>>>>> profiles.
>>>>>
>>>>>    It is possible to make another IETF draft=20
>>>>> and add the missing parts there, but it=20
>>>>> looks unmotivated to break out a small part=20
>>>>> of the work like that.
>>>>>
>>>>>    What I want to avoid is this situation:
>>>>>
>>>>>    -Caller calls with indication of English=20
>>>>> speech reception and English text reception
>>>>>     Caller prefers speech, but has included=20
>>>>> text for not scaring off friends who prefer=20
>>>>> text. But there is no way to convey this=20
>>>>> preference.
>>>>>    -Callee has both English speech sending=20
>>>>> and English text sending capability.
>>>>>    -Callee has no clue for how to start the=20
>>>>> call, so just taking a chance, the callee=20
>>>>> starts in text, typing "Hi, welcome to my=20
>>>>> service".
>>>>>    -The caller sees that and feels that it=20
>>>>> is most polite to start in the same=20
>>>>> modality, so the caller thinks it is a bit=20
>>>>> inconvenient, but types: " Hi, I want=20
>>>>> support for a problem. Can we talk?"
>>>>>    -The callee types: "Oh, yes, let us=20
>>>>> switch to talking" and the the callee says=20
>>>>> "Ok , talking now, what is your problem."
>>>>>    - The call continues in speech, using=20
>>>>> text just for model numbers, booking=20
>>>>> numbers URL:s etc in this case.
>>>>>
>>>>>    This is a quite natural development of a=20
>>>>> call where preference is not indicated from=20
>>>>> the beginning, and it adds inconvenience=20
>>>>> and delay compared to what it could have=20
>>>>> been if there was a way to convey modality=20
>>>>> preference.
>>>>>
>>>>>    I think it is small enough feature to go=20
>>>>> into the humintlang draft and general=20
>>>>> enough to not be pushed to be solved=20
>>>>> differently for each application.
>>>>>
>>>>>    A thought of mine was that the=20
>>>>> asterisk-notation for "do not fail" was not=20
>>>>> really needed and we could move that=20
>>>>> notation to point out the most preferred=20
>>>>> modality. But we heard opposition to that=20
>>>>> in the meeting, so now we are back to the=20
>>>>> need to add something small but important.
>>>>>
>>>>>    /Gunnar
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    _______________________________________________
>>>>>>    SLIM mailing list
>>>>>>    SLIM@ietf.org
>>>>>>    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>>>>>
>>>>>    --
>>>>>    -----------------------------------------
>>>>>    Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
>>>>>    Omnitor
>>>>>    gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>>>>    +46 708 204 288
>>>>>
>>>>>    _______________________________________________
>>>>>    SLIM mailing list
>>>>>    SLIM@ietf.org
>>>>>    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>   --
>>>   -----------------------------------------
>>>   Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
>>>   Omnitor
>>>   gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>>   +46 708 204 288
>>
>>
>
>  --
>  -----------------------------------------
>  Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
>  Omnitor
>  gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>  +46 708 204 288
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  SLIM mailing list
>  SLIM@ietf.org
>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim


-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
I think we'd get fewer weird bug reports if we stopped selling our
software off planet.


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Subject: Re: [Slim] I-D Action: draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-02.txt
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At 3:53 PM +0200 7/21/16, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m wrote:

>  Den 2016-07-21 kl. 15:29, skrev Randall Gellens:
>>  Hi Gunnar,
>>
>>  I do not believe any further text changes are=20
>> needed.  If you disagree, please raise the=20
>> issue as a WGLC ticket and the group can=20
>> decide how to proceed.
>  You should correct the language tag in the=20
> example for American Sign Language in video .=20
> it is 'ase' , not 'sgn-US' ( sgn-US was used=20
> before but was depreciated in 2009 )

My apologies, I looked in an outdated version of=20
the IANA registry by accident.  I was actually=20
surprised to see it listed as 'sgn-US' rather=20
than 'ase' ('ase' was listed as a different=20
spoken language).

>
>  And while you are in that section, I suggest=20
> that you add an example for text as well so=20
> that we have representation of all media that=20
> have implicit modalities.
>
>  m=3Dtext 45020 RTP/AVP 103 104
>  a=3Dhumintlang-send:gr
>  a=3Dhumintlang-recv:gr

OK.

>
>  Please also answer my question below on use of the asterisk.
>
>  Thanks,
>  Gunnar
>
>
>
>>
>>  Thanks,
>>
>>  --Randy
>>
>>  At 2:39 PM +0200 7/21/16, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m wrote:
>>
>>>   Randall,
>>>
>>>   thanks for rapid action again,
>>>
>>>
>>>   Den 2016-07-21 kl. 11:40, skrev Randall Gellens:
>>>
>>>>   Hi Gunar,
>>>>
>>>>   At 3:01 PM +0200 7/20/16, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>   Randall,
>>>>>
>>>>>   Thanks for rapid and thorough action. Most=20
>>>>> of my comments and edit proposals are well=20
>>>>> covered in -02
>>>>>
>>>>>   I have some rapid feedback.
>>>>>
>>>>>   1. Check the informational references in=20
>>>>> 12.2 and delet the ones we do not use=20
>>>>> anymore.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   Good idea. Done.
>>>>
>>>   Good
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   2. In 4 and 6 it is said that we define=20
>>>>> 'a' media attribute and 'an' SDP attribute.=20
>>>>> Consider if we should say 'two' already=20
>>>>> there.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   I added some clarification here.
>>>>
>>>   Good solution
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   3. In 4, the lats paragraph ( the=20
>>>>> paranthesis ) indicates that negotiating=20
>>>>> multiple languages is not feasible. But=20
>>>>> firstly, the caller is described to have=20
>>>>> the option to offer multiple alternatives,=20
>>>>> and some feasible use cases use multiple=20
>>>>> languages to express their preferences. So,=20
>>>>> the draft is contradicting this paragraph.=20
>>>>> Or I miss something it wants to say that=20
>>>>> also other readers could miss. I suggest to=20
>>>>> delete the last paragraph of 4.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   I reworded the note to be more clear.
>>>>
>>>   Yeah, says that we do not bother about=20
>>> selecting multiple languages per media, and=20
>>> does not mention our unsolved problem between=20
>>> media. Acceptable and understandable now.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   4. In 5, "The group" is used but not=20
>>>>> defined. And the discussion is not needed.=20
>>>>> "not sufficiently detailed" would be=20
>>>>> sufficient.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   I reworded the text to be more clear.
>>>>
>>>   5 is good now. Fine.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   5. In 6.2, I suggested to add a sentence: "
>>>>>
>>>>>   Events during the session may influence which language(s) are used,
>>>>>
>>>>>   and the participants are not strictly bound to only use the declared
>>>>>
>>>>>   languages."
>>>>>
>>>>>   I think it is a valid clarification.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   Fair enough. I added a note to this effect.
>>>>
>>>   What you added is on a totally other topic=20
>>> than what I proposed. Yours is also relevant.
>>>   These additions are only clarifications on=20
>>> use, so maybe not so important, but please=20
>>> consider keeping yours and adding my proposal=20
>>> above.
>>>
>>>   Your says that media may be accepted even if=20
>>> they are not planned to contain any agreed=20
>>> language.
>>>
>>>   Mine says that the negotiation is (of=20
>>> course) not binding for the user behavior in=20
>>> the session. If participants negotiated=20
>>> spoken Spanish and started in spoken Spanish,=20
>>> but eventually an only English-speaking=20
>>> person is include on one side and they all=20
>>> agree on switching to spoken English, they=20
>>> are of course free to do so.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   6. As 6.4 I suggest to insert the "Most=20
>>>>> preferred language" section discussed in=20
>>>>> mail today.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   I did not see any such thing. In which email is this?
>>>>
>>>   It was in the beginning of the thread called=20
>>> "awareness to the user in slim real-time=20
>>> draft"
>>>   and the proposal was to insert this section:
>>>
>>>
>>>=20
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>   6.4 Most preferred language
>>>
>>>   A mechanism is introduced that provides=20
>>> information on the most preferred language=20
>>> among all language indications in the session=20
>>> description. This is done in order to provide=20
>>> for a definite outcome of the negotiation of=20
>>> language in most cases, and thereby an=20
>>> opportunity for the call to start in a=20
>>> fruitful way.
>>>
>>>   The notation for the most preferred language=20
>>> is a plus ('+') character added after the=20
>>> language tag in the value of the=20
>>> corresponding language attribute. The=20
>>> notation MAY be used independently on both=20
>>> communication directions. The order between=20
>>> this indication and the indication for=20
>>> advisory versus required is not relevant.
>>>
>>>
>>>=20
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>   I would be glad to see it included, but=20
>>> because of the discussions on this topic, it=20
>>> might be better to continue discussing it=20
>>> separately.
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   7. I suggested a syntax and examples=20
>>>>> section, but did not provide wording for=20
>>>>> it. I still think that that is needed. (=20
>>>>> especially for understanding how the * is=20
>>>>> used, I remember some comments of=20
>>>>> astonishment that it is hooked on at the=20
>>>>> end of a language tag. )
>>>>>
>>>   In video, the language tag for American Sign Language should be 'ase'
>>>   Otherwise good. Maybe we should add some=20
>>> words of clarification, but I think the=20
>>> examples are good and straightforward and=20
>>> clarify the syntax.
>>>
>>>
>>>   Is my impression right about the asterisk,=20
>>> that it is sufficient to have one asterisk=20
>>> anywhere in the humintlang attributes in the=20
>>> whole sdp, and that is an advice to not fail=20
>>> the call, regardless of what happens with the=20
>>> very media and language that the asterisk is=20
>>> hooked on?

Yes, any use of the asterisk in the SDP means a=20
preference to not fail the call.  Omitting the=20
asterisk from all of the SDP indicates a=20
preference to fail the call.  There is no=20
requirement to fail the call regardless.


>>>
>>>>
>>>>   It is consistent with other uses, such as SIP Accept-Language syntax.
>>>>
>>>>   It seems useful to have some examples, so I added a section for this.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   8. I agree with the comment during the=20
>>>>> meeting, that additions to the security=20
>>>>> section with material from the use case=20
>>>>> document should be done.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   The test in the security considerations in=20
>>>> the use cases document is actually a privacy=20
>>>> consideration, not a security consideration.=20
>>>> I added a new section for this.
>>>>
>>>   That is often one of the three security=20
>>> aspects included in security sections.
>>>
>>>   You could add, "The sdp negotiation SHOULD therefore be kept confident=
=2E"
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   These were my immediate reactions. More might come.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   Those can be submitted against WGLC or IETF LC.
>>>>
>>>   Thanks, we are definitively converging.
>>>
>>>   /Gunnar
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   Gunnar
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   Den 2016-07-20 kl. 11:56, skrev Randall Gellens:
>>>>>
>>>>>>   Version -02 is now available. It=20
>>>>>> addresses all comments. If you feel a=20
>>>>>> comment was not correctly addressed, or=20
>>>>>> you have another comment, please say so.=20
>>>>>> The group may want to especially look at=20
>>>>>> Section 5 ("The existing 'lang'=20
>>>>>> attribute") to be sure the text reflect=20
>>>>>> group consensus.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   --
>>>>>   -----------------------------------------
>>>>>   Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
>>>>>   Omnitor
>>>>>
>>>>>=20
>>>>> <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se><mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.s=
e><mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>>>>   +46 708 204 288
>>>>>
>>>>>   _______________________________________________
>>>>>   SLIM mailing list
>>>>>   <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>SLIM@ietf.org
>>>>>
>>>>>=20
>>>>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>https://www.ietf.org/mailm=
an/listinfo/slim
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>   --
>>>   -----------------------------------------
>>>   Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
>>>   Omnitor
>>>   <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>>   +46 708 204 288
>>>
>>>   _______________________________________________
>>>   SLIM mailing list
>>>   SLIM@ietf.org
>>>   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>>
>>
>
>  --
>  -----------------------------------------
>  Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
>  Omnitor
>  gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>  +46 708 204 288
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  SLIM mailing list
>  SLIM@ietf.org
>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim


-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
We don't see things as they are; we see things as we are.
                                            --Anais Nin


From nobody Thu Jul 21 07:43:22 2016
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Subject: [Slim] I-D Action: draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-04.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Selection of Language for Internet Media of the IETF.

        Title           : Negotiating Human Language in Real-Time Communications
        Author          : Randall Gellens
	Filename        : draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-04.txt
	Pages           : 18
	Date            : 2016-07-21

Abstract:
   Users have various human (natural) language needs, abilities, and
   preferences regarding spoken, written, and signed languages.  When
   establishing interactive communication ("calls") there needs to be a
   way to negotiate (communicate and match) the caller's language and
   media needs with the capabilities of the called party.  This is
   especially important with emergency calls, where a call can be
   handled by a call taker capable of communicating with the user, or a
   translator or relay operator can be bridged into the call during
   setup, but this applies to non-emergency calls as well (as an
   example, when calling a company call center).

   This document describes the need and a solution using new SDP stream
   attributes.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-04

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-04


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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Den 2016-07-21 kl. 16:34, skrev Randall Gellens:
> At 3:38 PM +0200 7/21/16, Gunnar Hellström wrote:
>
>>  Den 2016-07-21 kl. 15:09, skrev Randall Gellens:
>>
>>>  At 2:53 PM +0200 7/21/16, Gunnar Hellström wrote:
>>>
>>>>   Den 2016-07-21 kl. 11:04, skrev Randall Gellens:
>>>>>   You want the application to be able to first know what the user 
>>>>> prefers across all media and languages, and second, to be able to 
>>>>> match what was negotiated with the other end with what the user 
>>>>> wants.  I believe you can do that with what we have now.
>>>>>
>>>>>   Consider: the application takes into account the user's 
>>>>> preferences across media and languages in deciding what to offer. 
>>>>> After the session is established, the application compares what 
>>>>> was accepted to the user's preferences across media and languages, 
>>>>> determines which combination of the accepted media and languages 
>>>>> is most preferred by the user, and displays that information to 
>>>>> the user.
>>>>   It is not sufficient. We have not defined any way to convey e.g. 
>>>> that spoken language is preferred over written language.
>>>
>>>  Conveying the information from the application to the user is out 
>>> of scope.  Conveying the information from one client to another is 
>>> not needed.
>>  Why would just this preference not be needed to convey to the other 
>> client?
>
> Because this preference is needed to be conveyed between endpoints, at 
> least in the current document; it can be handled by the client. 
> Conveying it would perhaps be more efficient because it could avoid 
> setting up media streams that won't be used, but this is not 
> sufficient reason to add complexity to the current document. If you 
> want to propose a new draft that does convey this, please do.
There is no difference between the "most preferred modality" and the 
"most preferred language per media". They both need in most cases be 
conveyed to the user, but we have selected to not talk about that part 
in the draft.
Without conveying them to the user, the user has no clue about what 
language to start using, and the whole purpose of our work is lost.
So why not convey the whole picture to the client, ( and assume that the 
client informs the user.)
>
>>  Why do not my examples work to make you understand that without this 
>> feature, the call has a risk to start with confusion.  ( and it does 
>> today, because of lack of this feature. )
>
> Fundamentally, the call gets set up and the channels with media and 
> language are established, so it's a success.  How the clients choose 
> to convey information to the user to avoid confusion is their business.
The clients do not handle the language, they just negotiate it on behalf 
of the users. Then the users need to know a definite outcome of the 
negotiation so that they can start producing the expected language. We 
just handle the exchange of this info between the clients, but we have 
no success until some other mechanism informs the user so that language 
can start to flow.
>
>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>   The called party want to start the conversation with a greeting 
>>>> in the language and the modality that the caller prefers ( if that 
>>>> reasonably matches the callee capabilities ).
>>>>
>>>>   So assume that the caller can use spoken English and written 
>>>> English and strongly prefers the spoken English.
>>>>
>>>>   These capabilities can both be indicated in the offer but without 
>>>> any preference indication .
>>>>
>>>>   That leaves the callee without a clue on how to answer to not 
>>>> cause initial confusion.
>>>
>>>  The callee answers with whichever of the requested media and 
>>> language streams it can support.
>>  And if the one that is least preferred by the caller is selected, 
>> part of the call or the whole call may be conducted in a modality 
>> that is not the best one, just because we did not include the 
>> possibility to convey which one is preferred by the other party.
>
> The callee will answer the offer with all media and languages it can, 
> and the endpoints will know what was set up.  How they convey this to 
> the user so the user knows what is the most preferred modality and 
> language is its business.  I listed the steps a client goes through in 
> my previous email.
We need to tell the other client what is the preferred modality.

If you are afraid of increased complexity, I suggest that we scrap the 
required/advisory feature that you anyway say usually should not be 
followed. Then you have the asterisk notation free to point out the most 
preferred modality with.


>
>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>   That is the simple case I want a notation for. Just a highest 
>>>> preference mark to hook on e.g. to the spoken English indication.
>>>>
>>>>   One notation was just proposed in another mail to be included as 
>>>> section 6.4.
>>>>
>>>>   Gunnar
>>>>>
>>>>>   --Randy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   At 9:15 AM +0200 7/21/16, Gunnar Hellström wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>    Bernard, thanks for trying to explain the resistance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Den 2016-07-20 kl. 18:52, skrev Bernard Aboba:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    On Jul 20, 2016, at 6:11 PM, Gunnar Hellström 
>>>>>>> <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se> wrote:
>>>>>>>>    Why don't you want to solve the human problem to start a 
>>>>>>>> call in the most effective way.
>>>>>>>    [BA] As stated at the meeting, the major question is in what 
>>>>>>> layer this functionality belongs.
>>>>>>    I guess you mean the whole topic of language negotiation. It 
>>>>>> is an application level topic about user information and 
>>>>>> agreement, with some influence on call routing and device selection.
>>>>>>    If you meant the remaining issues of preference across 
>>>>>> session, and grouping, it is the same.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    In several IETF WGs, including CLUE and now WEBRTC, the 
>>>>>>> decision has been made to limit the complexity of the SDP O/A 
>>>>>>> negotiation to the bare minimum needed to bring the call up. 
>>>>>>> From there, the application can add functionality. This approach 
>>>>>>> "optimizes for the common case", limits the difficulty in 
>>>>>>> implementing the basic required SDP and makes it more likely 
>>>>>>> that it will interoperate.
>>>>>>    Yes, sdp is becoming hard to manage, when you are supposed to 
>>>>>> negotiate SRTP vs RTP, AVPF vs AVP, RTCP vs INFO, multiplexing, 
>>>>>> ICE etc and now also language. So, maybe we made the wrong 
>>>>>> decision to go this way. We could have defined an XML schema for 
>>>>>> language and modality preferences and conveyed it somehow between 
>>>>>> the parties. But now we are here with our decision close to WGLC 
>>>>>> and intend to take this through.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    AFAICT, the basic SDP functionality in the draft appears to 
>>>>>>> be enough to enable an application to handle media preference on 
>>>>>>> its own.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    As an example, I believe that every use case can be supported 
>>>>>>> within a web application using a modified SIP library without 
>>>>>>> any SDP additions beyond what we already have defined.
>>>>>>    Do you mean that we now need to add SIP headers for the 
>>>>>> remaining information to really sort out what it meant by the 
>>>>>> limited indications we provide in SDP.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Something like: modality-preference-send: speech ; 
>>>>>> modality-preference-recv: speech
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    And something similar for SIP-less calls?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    Yes, the application would need to deal with media 
>>>>>>> preferences but most unified communications applications support 
>>>>>>> multiple modes and need to handle decisions on media usage 
>>>>>>> already (camera on/off, mute, etc.) Adding complexity to the SDP 
>>>>>>> parser might actually make it harder for the application, not 
>>>>>>> easier.
>>>>>>    The application areas I want to see benefit from this work are 
>>>>>> wide and do not have any other common specification fora that can 
>>>>>> add SIP or SDP elements. It is for example 3GPP that convey 
>>>>>> regular calls with ambition to have interoperability between 
>>>>>> providers, and it is for example between SIP providers and 
>>>>>> ESiNets following NENA or EENA specs. They all rely on the ground 
>>>>>> work done in IETF, for selection into their profiles.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    It is possible to make another IETF draft and add the missing 
>>>>>> parts there, but it looks unmotivated to break out a small part 
>>>>>> of the work like that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    What I want to avoid is this situation:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    -Caller calls with indication of English speech reception and 
>>>>>> English text reception
>>>>>>     Caller prefers speech, but has included text for not scaring 
>>>>>> off friends who prefer text. But there is no way to convey this 
>>>>>> preference.
>>>>>>    -Callee has both English speech sending and English text 
>>>>>> sending capability.
>>>>>>    -Callee has no clue for how to start the call, so just taking 
>>>>>> a chance, the callee starts in text, typing "Hi, welcome to my 
>>>>>> service".
>>>>>>    -The caller sees that and feels that it is most polite to 
>>>>>> start in the same modality, so the caller thinks it is a bit 
>>>>>> inconvenient, but types: " Hi, I want support for a problem. Can 
>>>>>> we talk?"
>>>>>>    -The callee types: "Oh, yes, let us switch to talking" and the 
>>>>>> the callee says "Ok , talking now, what is your problem."
>>>>>>    - The call continues in speech, using text just for model 
>>>>>> numbers, booking numbers URL:s etc in this case.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    This is a quite natural development of a call where preference 
>>>>>> is not indicated from the beginning, and it adds inconvenience 
>>>>>> and delay compared to what it could have been if there was a way 
>>>>>> to convey modality preference.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    I think it is small enough feature to go into the humintlang 
>>>>>> draft and general enough to not be pushed to be solved 
>>>>>> differently for each application.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    A thought of mine was that the asterisk-notation for "do not 
>>>>>> fail" was not really needed and we could move that notation to 
>>>>>> point out the most preferred modality. But we heard opposition to 
>>>>>> that in the meeting, so now we are back to the need to add 
>>>>>> something small but important.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    /Gunnar
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>    SLIM mailing list
>>>>>>>    SLIM@ietf.org
>>>>>>>    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    --
>>>>>>    -----------------------------------------
>>>>>>    Gunnar Hellström
>>>>>>    Omnitor
>>>>>>    gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>>>>>    +46 708 204 288
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    _______________________________________________
>>>>>>    SLIM mailing list
>>>>>>    SLIM@ietf.org
>>>>>>    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   --
>>>>   -----------------------------------------
>>>>   Gunnar Hellström
>>>>   Omnitor
>>>>   gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>>>   +46 708 204 288
>>>
>>>
>>
>>  --
>>  -----------------------------------------
>>  Gunnar Hellström
>>  Omnitor
>>  gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>  +46 708 204 288
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  SLIM mailing list
>>  SLIM@ietf.org
>>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>
>

-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
+46 708 204 288


From nobody Thu Jul 21 07:58:11 2016
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Subject: Re: [Slim] I-D Action: draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-04.txt
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Randy,

Very good, thanks.

Gunnar


Den 2016-07-21 kl. 16:43, skrev internet-drafts@ietf.org:
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Selection of Language for Internet Media of the IETF.
>
>          Title           : Negotiating Human Language in Real-Time Communications
>          Author          : Randall Gellens
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-04.txt
> 	Pages           : 18
> 	Date            : 2016-07-21
>
> Abstract:
>     Users have various human (natural) language needs, abilities, and
>     preferences regarding spoken, written, and signed languages.  When
>     establishing interactive communication ("calls") there needs to be a
>     way to negotiate (communicate and match) the caller's language and
>     media needs with the capabilities of the called party.  This is
>     especially important with emergency calls, where a call can be
>     handled by a call taker capable of communicating with the user, or a
>     translator or relay operator can be bridged into the call during
>     setup, but this applies to non-emergency calls as well (as an
>     example, when calling a company call center).
>
>     This document describes the need and a solution using new SDP stream
>     attributes.
>
>
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language/
>
> There's also a htmlized version available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-04
>
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-04
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
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>
> _______________________________________________
> SLIM mailing list
> SLIM@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim

-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
+46 708 204 288


From nobody Thu Jul 21 08:05:23 2016
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From: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org>
To: "Randall Gellens" <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>, "Gunnar =?UTF-8?Q?Hellstr=C3=B6m?=" <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>, slim@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Slim] I-D Action: draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-02.txt
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Randall Gellens wrote:=0A=0A>> You should correct the language tag in the =
=0A>> example for American Sign Language in video . =0A>> it is 'ase' , not=
 'sgn-US' ( sgn-US was used =0A>> before but was depreciated in 2009 )=0A>=
=0A> My apologies, I looked in an outdated version of =0A> the IANA registr=
y by accident. I was actually =0A> surprised to see it listed as 'sgn-US' r=
ather =0A> than 'ase' ('ase' was listed as a different =0A> spoken language=
).=0A=0AAs an application of BCP 47, SLIM needs to use the current Language=
=0ASubtag Registry located at:=0A=0Ahttp://www.iana.org/assignments/languag=
e-subtag-registry/language-subtag-registry=0A=0AThe relevant records in the=
 Registry are:=0A=0AType: language=0ASubtag: ase=0ADescription: American Si=
gn Language=0AAdded: 2009-07-29=0A=0Aand=0A=0AType: redundant=0ATag: sgn-US=
=0ADescription: American Sign Language=0AAdded: 2001-03-02=0ADeprecated: 20=
09-07-29=0APreferred-Value: ase=0A=0AThe fields "Deprecated" and "Preferred=
-Value" in the latter record are=0Aimportant.=0A=0A=0A--=0ADoug Ewell | Tho=
rnton, CO, US | ewellic.org=0A


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To: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org>, =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Gunnar_Hellstr=F6m=22?=  <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>, slim@ietf.org
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At 8:05 AM -0700 7/21/16, Doug Ewell wrote:

>  Randall Gellens wrote: >> You should correct the language tag in 
> the >> example for American Sign Language in video . >> it is 'ase' 
> , not 'sgn-US' ( sgn-US was used >> before but was depreciated in 
> 2009 ) > > My apologies, I looked in an outdated version of > the 
> IANA registry by accident. I was actually > surprised to see it 
> listed as 'sgn-US' rather > than 'ase' ('ase' was listed as a 
> different > spoken language). As an application of BCP 47, SLIM 
> needs to use the current Language Subtag Registry located at: 
> http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry/language-subtag-registry 
> The relevant records in the Registry are: Type: language Subtag: 
> ase Description: American Sign Language Added: 2009-07-29 and Type: 
> redundant Tag: sgn-US Description: American Sign Language Added: 
> 2001-03-02 Deprecated: 2009-07-29 Preferred-Value: ase The fields 
> "Deprecated" and "Preferred-Value" in the latter record are 
> important. -- Doug Ewell | Thornton, CO, US | ewellic.org

Yes, already fixed in -04, which is published.  I was accidently 
looking in an old version of the registry when I first added the 
example.

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
100 blocks of crud on the disk,
100 blocks of crud!
You patch a bug, and dump it again:
101 blocks of crud on the disk!...


From nobody Thu Jul 21 11:08:20 2016
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Subject: [Slim] Syntax of combination of language tag and Advisory vs Required indication in draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
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Randall,

Section 6.3 of draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-04 says:
"The mechanism for indicating this preference is that, in an offer, if 
the last character of any of the 'humintlang-recv' or 'humintlang- send' 
values is an asterisk, this indicates a request to not fail the call 
(similar to SIP Accept-Language syntax)."

An example from section 6.5 is

  a=humintlang-send:ase*

I have looked at the syntax description of SIP Accept-Language in RFC 
3261 section 25.1 , and got to the conclusion that the asterisk is used 
in place of a language tag, and not combined with the language tag as 
you have specified it for the slim real-time draft.

So, following that syntax, my interpretation is that we would need a 
syntax according to this example

  a=humintlang-send:*

or, taking inspiration from the Accept-Language syntax, we could change 
the syntax of our attributes and allow enumeration of the language tags 
comma separated and include the asterisk among them.

  a=humintlang-send:ase, *

Of course we could define our own syntax for this parameter, but then we 
should not say that it is similar to the use in Accept-Language, and we 
should double check with the rfc 5646 experts to verify that we can 
append the asterisk on the tag.

Please check this and explain your interpretation, or propose modifications.

/Gunnar

-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
+46 708 204 288


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From: Bernard Aboba <bernard.aboba@gmail.com>
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References: <ce464cd4-5cf0-de9e-6465-ac025b76806e@omnitor.se> <3A3B5229-1CB5-431F-BB27-EA73606D2F88@brianrosen.net> <2a307dcd-d799-a0cc-2c54-b4d35e1e0d3c@omnitor.se> <68C9050A-DF70-4225-BE22-54FA2185E263@brianrosen.net> <0bc0fd11-dafb-c7b5-fbd3-b1e8c7c4f136@omnitor.se> <B2153B79-B9E7-47BD-BD53-ED6AC9FF5774@gmail.com> <88bb125a-06ad-a50f-2193-4fcece41f9c6@omnitor.se> <p06240604d3b63f86fc21@[10.134.253.167]> <8a6604b0-ff1e-2285-ac72-acb78a83a3a3@omnitor.se> <p0624060bd3b679859202@[10.134.253.167]> <2bad7b63-a11f-d5f0-8fee-7d551991139a@omnitor.se> <p0624060fd3b68c9e0be9@[10.134.253.167]>
To: Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/slim/H8qVa9oQEBTegD6W4aDERZiBs_s>
Cc: slim@ietf.org, =?utf-8?Q?Gunnar_Hellstr=C3=B6m?= <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>
Subject: Re: [Slim] awareness to the user in the slim real-time draft
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On Jul 21, 2016, at 16:34, Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org> wrote=
:
>=20
> Conveying it would perhaps be more efficient because it could avoid settin=
g up media streams that won't be used, but this is not sufficient reason to a=
dd complexity to the current document.=20

[BA] It is not always possible to know ahead of time whether media will be u=
sed or not. Perhaps you were not intending to use text but the audio is faul=
ty so you use text to trouble shoot. Perhaps you have a webcam but realize y=
ou are not prepared to go on camera so you turn off video. Negotiating all p=
otential media is often the most robust and flexible choice, but of course, r=
enegotiation is possible too if it becomes clear that a particular media typ=
e should be removed from the call.=


From nobody Fri Jul 22 00:04:47 2016
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From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gunnar_Hellstr=c3=b6m?= <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>
To: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@lab126.com>, "slim@ietf.org" <slim@ietf.org>
References: <7697c842-1c68-e4d6-fba8-cc3a51327585@omnitor.se> <c81f8834632e4002b75a3cad04e9cb78@EX13D08UWB002.ant.amazon.com>
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Subject: Re: [Slim] Syntax of combination of language tag and Advisory vs Required indication in draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
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What I meant with this topic was to check if our syntax for use of the 
asterisk is safe and non-ambiguous.

And then I discovered that the syntax is not similar to the use in 
Accept-language as the text in 6.3 says. Accept-language has the 
asterisk comma-separated from the language tags ( "en, *" ). I find no 
previous use of an asterisk tacked on directly to the language tag as 
our examples show ( "en*" ).

But since the language tag is alphanumeric, and RFC 4566 allows 
attribute values to be any byte string, the syntax seems allowable. I 
would like other's views on if it is advisable.

The similarity with the Accept-language is not the syntax, but the 
intention of use. The asterisk shows that language-matching does not 
need to be successfully completed for the call to be accepted. The 
reasoning says that that is usually the case anyway.

The syntax is not really logical. The asterisk does not belong to any 
specific language attribute. It would be more logical to have it as an 
attribute value of its own in a separate humintlang attribute. But that 
is less compact.

Another syntax question is if whitespace is allowed before the asterisk. 
SIP says that whitespace is usually allowed around the asterisk, but 
this is an sdp attribute and in RFC 4566 no such habit is documented.

The result is anyway that we need decisions on the questions above and a 
matching formal syntax description.

I assume that a syntax description for the current syntax would be this, 
that we should put in the beginning of 6.5 and call that Syntax and 
examples:

------------------------------------Proposed addition to the beginning 
of 6.5---------------------

6.5 Syntax and examples

The attributes may occur a number of times and follow this syntax:

a=humintlang-send:<language-tag>[<relevance>]

a=humintlang-recv:<language-tag>[<relevance>]

<language-tag> is a language tag according to RFC 4566.

<relevance> is an optional modifier that adds information on the 
relevance of the attribute or a group of attributes. It consists of 
characters not allowed in language tags. One value for <relevance> is 
specified here. It is an asterisk "*" that implies that the call should 
be accepted even if there is no complete language match between the 
offeror and that answering party. Other values of the relevance 
parameter may be defined in other specifications. The order of the 
values within the relevance parameter is not relevant. Whitespace is not 
allowed before and within the relevance parameter. Unrecognized values 
in the relevance parameter shall be ignored.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In 6.3, the paranthesis

"(similar to SIP Accept-Language syntax)"

should be changed to:

"(similar to the purpose of the use of the asterisk in the SIP 
Accept-Language header )"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------


/Gunnar



Den 2016-07-21 kl. 20:13, skrev Phillips, Addison:
>> Of course we could define our own syntax for this parameter, but then we
>> should not say that it is similar to the use in Accept-Language, and we should
>> double check with the rfc 5646 experts to verify that we can append the
>> asterisk on the tag.
> BCP47 (RFC 4647 in this case) defines some different language matching schemes besides that of rfc3261. Of interest here is the concept of "extended language range" which allows for asterisks in a range.
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-2.2
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-3.3.2
>
> Addison
>
> Addison Phillips
> Principal SDE, I18N Architect (Amazon)
> Chair (W3C I18N WG)
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: SLIM [mailto:slim-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Gunnar HellstrÃ¶m
>> Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2016 11:08 AM
>> To:slim@ietf.org
>> Subject: [Slim] Syntax of combination of language tag and Advisory vs
>> Required indication in draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
>>
>> Randall,
>>
>> Section 6.3 of draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-04 says:
>> "The mechanism for indicating this preference is that, in an offer, if the last
>> character of any of the 'humintlang-recv' or 'humintlang- send'
>> values is an asterisk, this indicates a request to not fail the call (similar to SIP
>> Accept-Language syntax)."
>>
>> An example from section 6.5 is
>>
>>    a=humintlang-send:ase*
>>
>> I have looked at the syntax description of SIP Accept-Language in RFC
>> 3261 section 25.1 , and got to the conclusion that the asterisk is used in place
>> of a language tag, and not combined with the language tag as you have
>> specified it for the slim real-time draft.
>>
>> So, following that syntax, my interpretation is that we would need a syntax
>> according to this example
>>
>>    a=humintlang-send:*
>>
>> or, taking inspiration from the Accept-Language syntax, we could change the
>> syntax of our attributes and allow enumeration of the language tags comma
>> separated and include the asterisk among them.
>>
>>    a=humintlang-send:ase, *
>>
>> Of course we could define our own syntax for this parameter, but then we
>> should not say that it is similar to the use in Accept-Language, and we should
>> double check with the rfc 5646 experts to verify that we can append the
>> asterisk on the tag.
>>
>> Please check this and explain your interpretation, or propose modifications.
>>
>> /Gunnar
>>
>> --
>> -----------------------------------------
>> Gunnar HellstrÃ¶m
>> Omnitor
>> gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>> +46 708 204 288
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> SLIM mailing list
>> SLIM@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim

-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar HellstrÃ¶m
Omnitor
gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
+46 708 204 288


--------------C5876C7CC85FC46F6E0B39A7
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

<html>
  <head>
    <meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <p>What I meant with this topic was to check if our syntax for use
      of the asterisk is safe and non-ambiguous.</p>
    <p>And then I discovered that the syntax is not similar to the use
      in Accept-language as the text in 6.3 says. Accept-language has
      the asterisk comma-separated from the language tags ( "en, *" ).Â 
      I find no previous use of an asterisk tacked on directly to the
      language tag as our examples show ( "en*" ). <br>
    </p>
    <p>But since the language tag is alphanumeric, and RFC 4566 allows
      attribute values to be any byte string, the syntax seems
      allowable. I would like other's views on if it is advisable.<br>
    </p>
    <p>The similarity with the Accept-language is not the syntax, but
      the intention of use. The asterisk shows that language-matching
      does not need to be successfully completed for the call to be
      accepted. The reasoning says that that is usually the case anyway.<br>
    </p>
    <p>The syntax is not really logical. The asterisk does not belong to
      any specific language attribute. It would be more logical to have
      it as an attribute value of its own in a separate humintlang
      attribute. But that is less compact. <br>
    </p>
    <p>Another syntax question is if whitespace is allowed before the
      asterisk. SIP says that whitespace is usually allowed around the
      asterisk, but this is an sdp attribute and in RFC 4566 no such
      habit is documented. <br>
    </p>
    <p>The result is anyway that we need decisions on the questions
      above and a matching formal syntax description. <br>
    </p>
    <p>I assume that a syntax description for the current syntax would
      be this, that we should put in the beginning of 6.5 and call that
      Syntax and examples:</p>
    <p>------------------------------------Proposed addition to the
      beginning of 6.5---------------------</p>
    <p>6.5 Syntax and examples</p>
    <p>The attributes may occur a number of times and follow this
      syntax:<br>
    </p>
    <p>a=humintlang-send:&lt;language-tag&gt;[&lt;relevance&gt;]</p>
    <p>a=humintlang-recv:&lt;language-tag&gt;[&lt;relevance&gt;]<br>
    </p>
    <p>&lt;language-tag&gt; is a language tag according to RFC 4566.<br>
    </p>
    <p>&lt;relevance&gt; is an optional modifier that adds information
      on the relevance of the attribute or a group of attributes. It
      consists of characters not allowed in language tags. One value for
      &lt;relevance&gt; is specified here. It is an asterisk "*" that
      implies that the call should be accepted even if there is no
      complete language match between the offeror and that answering
      party. Other values of the relevance parameter may be defined in
      other specifications. The order of the values within the relevance
      parameter is not relevant. Whitespace is not allowed before and
      within the relevance parameter. Unrecognized values in the
      relevance parameter shall be ignored.</p>
    <p>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
    </p>
    <p> In 6.3, the paranthesis <br>
    </p>
    <p>"(similar to SIP Accept-Language syntax)"</p>
    <p> </p>
    <p> should be changed to:</p>
    <p>"(similar to the purpose of the use of the asterisk in the SIP
      Accept-Language header )"<br>
    </p>
    <p>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>/GunnarÂ  </p>
    <p> <br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Den 2016-07-21 kl. 20:13, skrev
      Phillips, Addison:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:c81f8834632e4002b75a3cad04e9cb78@EX13D08UWB002.ant.amazon.com"
      type="cite">
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">Of course we could define our own syntax for this parameter, but then we
should not say that it is similar to the use in Accept-Language, and we should
double check with the rfc 5646 experts to verify that we can append the
asterisk on the tag.
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">BCP47 (RFC 4647 in this case) defines some different language matching schemes besides that of rfc3261. Of interest here is the concept of "extended language range" which allows for asterisks in a range.

<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-2.2">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-2.2</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-3.3.2">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-3.3.2</a>

Addison

Addison Phillips
Principal SDE, I18N Architect (Amazon)
Chair (W3C I18N WG)

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.



</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">-----Original Message-----
From: SLIM [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:slim-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:slim-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Gunnar HellstrÃ¶m
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2016 11:08 AM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:slim@ietf.org">slim@ietf.org</a>
Subject: [Slim] Syntax of combination of language tag and Advisory vs
Required indication in draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language

Randall,

Section 6.3 of draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-04 says:
"The mechanism for indicating this preference is that, in an offer, if the last
character of any of the 'humintlang-recv' or 'humintlang- send'
values is an asterisk, this indicates a request to not fail the call (similar to SIP
Accept-Language syntax)."

An example from section 6.5 is

  a=humintlang-send:ase*

I have looked at the syntax description of SIP Accept-Language in RFC
3261 section 25.1 , and got to the conclusion that the asterisk is used in place
of a language tag, and not combined with the language tag as you have
specified it for the slim real-time draft.

So, following that syntax, my interpretation is that we would need a syntax
according to this example

  a=humintlang-send:*

or, taking inspiration from the Accept-Language syntax, we could change the
syntax of our attributes and allow enumeration of the language tags comma
separated and include the asterisk among them.

  a=humintlang-send:ase, *

Of course we could define our own syntax for this parameter, but then we
should not say that it is similar to the use in Accept-Language, and we should
double check with the rfc 5646 experts to verify that we can append the
asterisk on the tag.

Please check this and explain your interpretation, or propose modifications.

/Gunnar

--
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar HellstrÃ¶m
Omnitor
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>
+46 708 204 288

_______________________________________________
SLIM mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:SLIM@ietf.org">SLIM@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a>
</pre>
      </blockquote>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar HellstrÃ¶m
Omnitor
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>
+46 708 204 288</pre>
  </body>
</html>

--------------C5876C7CC85FC46F6E0B39A7--


From nobody Fri Jul 22 00:34:47 2016
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To: Gunnar =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hellstr=F6m?=  <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>, "Phillips, Addison" <addison@lab126.com>, "slim@ietf.org" <slim@ietf.org>
From: Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>
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Subject: Re: [Slim] Syntax of combination of language tag and Advisory vs Required indication in draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
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The feature to add a means to indicate a=20
preference to not fail the call, and the asterisk=20
notation to do so, was suggested during the=20
=46ebruary 2013 in-person discussion on the=20
real-time draft at IETF 86 in Orlando:

>  Advisory vs Required:
>  - Does call fail if no common language?
>  - Define token for use in offer to indicate=20
> caller's preference to fail call or not if no=20
> common language.
>  - One choice is to say that if the last=20
> character of the send-lang or recv-lan value an=20
> asterisk, this indicates a request to not fail=20
> the call (similar to SIP Accept-Language=20
> syntax).  Either way, the called party may=20
> ignore this, e.g., for the emergency services=20
> use case, a PSAP will likely not fail the call.

We can easily delete the "(similar to SIP=20
Accept-Language syntax)" text if that is causing=20
heartburn.  I suggest sending a request to do so=20
as a WGLC comment.

--Randy

At 9:04 AM +0200 7/22/16, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m wrote:

>  What I meant with this topic was to check if=20
> our syntax for use of the asterisk is safe and=20
> non-ambiguous.
>
>  And then I discovered that the syntax is not=20
> similar to the use in Accept-language as the=20
> text in 6.3 says. Accept-language has the=20
> asterisk comma-separated from the language tags=20
> ( "en, *" ).  I find no previous use of an=20
> asterisk tacked on directly to the language tag=20
> as our examples show ( "en*" ).
>
>  But since the language tag is alphanumeric, and=20
> RFC 4566 allows attribute values to be any byte=20
> string, the syntax seems allowable. I would=20
> like other's views on if it is advisable.
>
>  The similarity with the Accept-language is not=20
> the syntax, but the intention of use. The=20
> asterisk shows that language-matching does not=20
> need to be successfully completed for the call=20
> to be accepted. The reasoning says that that is=20
> usually the case anyway.
>
>  The syntax is not really logical. The asterisk=20
> does not belong to any specific language=20
> attribute. It would be more logical to have it=20
> as an attribute value of its own in a separate=20
> humintlang attribute. But that is less compact.
>
>  Another syntax question is if whitespace is=20
> allowed before the asterisk. SIP says that=20
> whitespace is usually allowed around the=20
> asterisk, but this is an sdp attribute and in=20
> RFC 4566 no such habit is documented.
>
>  The result is anyway that we need decisions on=20
> the questions above and a matching formal=20
> syntax description.
>
>  I assume that a syntax description for the=20
> current syntax would be this, that we should=20
> put in the beginning of 6.5 and call that=20
> Syntax and examples:
>
>  ------------------------------------Proposed=20
> addition to the beginning of=20
> 6.5---------------------
>
>  6.5 Syntax and examples
>
>  The attributes may occur a number of times and follow this syntax:
>
>  a=3Dhumintlang-send:<language-tag>[<relevance>]
>
>  a=3Dhumintlang-recv:<language-tag>[<relevance>]
>
>  <language-tag> is a language tag according to RFC 4566.
>
>  <relevance> is an optional modifier that adds=20
> information on the relevance of the attribute=20
> or a group of attributes. It consists of=20
> characters not allowed in language tags. One=20
> value for <relevance> is specified here. It is=20
> an asterisk "*" that implies that the call=20
> should be accepted even if there is no complete=20
> language match between the offeror and that=20
> answering party. Other values of the relevance=20
> parameter may be defined in other=20
> specifications. The order of the values within=20
> the relevance parameter is not relevant.=20
> Whitespace is not allowed before and within the=20
> relevance parameter. Unrecognized values in the=20
> relevance parameter shall be ignored.
>
>=20
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--------------------------------------------------
>
>  In 6.3, the paranthesis
>
>  "(similar to SIP Accept-Language syntax)"
>
>  should be changed to:
>
>  "(similar to the purpose of the use of the=20
> asterisk in the SIP Accept-Language header )"
>
>  -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
>
>
>  /Gunnar
>
>
>
>  Den 2016-07-21 kl. 20:13, skrev Phillips, Addison:
>
>>>  Of course we could define our own syntax for this parameter, but then w=
e
>>>  should not say that it is similar to the use=20
>>> in Accept-Language, and we should
>>>  double check with the rfc 5646 experts to verify that we can append the
>>>  asterisk on the tag.
>>>
>>  BCP47 (RFC 4647 in this case) defines some=20
>> different language matching schemes besides=20
>> that of rfc3261. Of interest here is the=20
>> concept of "extended language range" which=20
>> allows for asterisks in a range.
>>
>>=20
>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-2.2>https://tools.ietf.org/h=
tml/rfc4647#section-2.2
>>=20
>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-3.3.2>https://tools.ietf.org=
/html/rfc4647#section-3.3.2
>>
>>  Addison
>>
>>  Addison Phillips
>>  Principal SDE, I18N Architect (Amazon)
>>  Chair (W3C I18N WG)
>>
>>  Internationalization is not a feature.
>>  It is an architecture.
>>
>>
>>
>>>  -----Original Message-----
>>>  From: SLIM=20
>>> [<mailto:slim-bounces@ietf.org>mailto:slim-bounces@ietf.org]=20
>>> On Behalf Of Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
>>>  Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2016 11:08 AM
>>>  To: <mailto:slim@ietf.org>slim@ietf.org
>>>  Subject: [Slim] Syntax of combination of language tag and Advisory vs
>>>  Required indication in draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
>>>
>>>  Randall,
>>>
>>>  Section 6.3 of draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-04 says:
>>>  "The mechanism for indicating this preference=20
>>> is that, in an offer, if the last
>>>  character of any of the 'humintlang-recv' or 'humintlang- send'
>>>  values is an asterisk, this indicates a=20
>>> request to not fail the call (similar to SIP
>>>  Accept-Language syntax)."
>>>
>>>  An example from section 6.5 is
>>>
>>>    a=3Dhumintlang-send:ase*
>>>
>>>  I have looked at the syntax description of SIP Accept-Language in RFC
>>>  3261 section 25.1 , and got to the conclusion=20
>>> that the asterisk is used in place
>>>  of a language tag, and not combined with the language tag as you have
>>>  specified it for the slim real-time draft.
>>>
>>>  So, following that syntax, my interpretation is that we would need a sy=
ntax
>>>  according to this example
>>>
>>>    a=3Dhumintlang-send:*
>>>
>>>  or, taking inspiration from the Accept-Language syntax, we could change=
 the
>>>  syntax of our attributes and allow enumeration of the language tags com=
ma
>>>  separated and include the asterisk among them.
>>>
>>>    a=3Dhumintlang-send:ase, *
>>>
>>>  Of course we could define our own syntax for this parameter, but then w=
e
>>>  should not say that it is similar to the use=20
>>> in Accept-Language, and we should
>>>  double check with the rfc 5646 experts to verify that we can append the
>>>  asterisk on the tag.
>>>
>>>  Please check this and explain your=20
>>> interpretation, or propose modifications.
>>>
>>>  /Gunnar
>>>
>>>  --
>>>  -----------------------------------------
>>>  Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
>>>  Omnitor
>>>  <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>>  +46 708 204 288
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>  SLIM mailing list
>>>  <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>SLIM@ietf.org
>>>=20
>>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>https://www.ietf.org/mailman=
/listinfo/slim
>>>
>
>  --
>  -----------------------------------------
>  Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
>  Omnitor
>  <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>  +46 708 204 288
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  SLIM mailing list
>  SLIM@ietf.org
>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim


-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
To stay young requires unceasing cultivation of the ability to
unlearn falsehoods.                             --Lazarus Long


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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/slim/bCUKKlO3obZN0Nxhuw2S46zK9FM>
Subject: Re: [Slim] Syntax of combination of language tag and Advisory vs Required indication in draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
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On 2016/07/22 16:34, Randall Gellens wrote:
> The feature to add a means to indicate a preference to not fail the
> call, and the asterisk notation to do so, was suggested during the
> February 2013 in-person discussion on the real-time draft at IETF 86 in
> Orlando:
>
>>  Advisory vs Required:
>>  - Does call fail if no common language?
>>  - Define token for use in offer to indicate caller's preference to
>> fail call or not if no common language.
>>  - One choice is to say that if the last character of the send-lang or
>> recv-lan value an asterisk, this indicates a request to not fail the
>> call (similar to SIP Accept-Language syntax).  Either way, the called
>> party may ignore this, e.g., for the emergency services use case, a
>> PSAP will likely not fail the call.
>
> We can easily delete the "(similar to SIP Accept-Language syntax)" text
> if that is causing heartburn.  I suggest sending a request to do so as a
> WGLC comment.

Hello Randy,

Thanks for giving the history of this particular item.

However, I strongly suggest that this be changed so that it matches 
better what other IETF protocols and related specifications do.

If somebody sees something like
a=humintlang-send:en*
there's a big chance they interpret it as "any kind of English", rather 
than as "English, or anything else if that's not available", although as 
far as I understand, according to the current spec, it would be the 
later. Such misunderstandings might happen to anybody who knows HTTP or 
SMTP or SIP or BCP 47, which is a wide range of people.

The current interpretation also makes one think what
a=humintlang-send:en*
a=humintlang-send:es
means. It probably means "English, or anything else if it's not 
available, or Spanish, but don't care to provide anything else if 
Spanish isn't available." This is very subtly, and probably needlessly, 
different from "English, or Spanish, or anything else if these are not 
available" (actually, I have to admit I'm not sure it's different or 
not, but that alone is a bad sign for this design).

Regards,   Martin.

> --Randy
>
> At 9:04 AM +0200 7/22/16, Gunnar HellstrÃ¶m wrote:
>
>>  What I meant with this topic was to check if our syntax for use of
>> the asterisk is safe and non-ambiguous.
>>
>>  And then I discovered that the syntax is not similar to the use in
>> Accept-language as the text in 6.3 says. Accept-language has the
>> asterisk comma-separated from the language tags ( "en, *" ).  I find
>> no previous use of an asterisk tacked on directly to the language tag
>> as our examples show ( "en*" ).
>>
>>  But since the language tag is alphanumeric, and RFC 4566 allows
>> attribute values to be any byte string, the syntax seems allowable. I
>> would like other's views on if it is advisable.
>>
>>  The similarity with the Accept-language is not the syntax, but the
>> intention of use. The asterisk shows that language-matching does not
>> need to be successfully completed for the call to be accepted. The
>> reasoning says that that is usually the case anyway.
>>
>>  The syntax is not really logical. The asterisk does not belong to any
>> specific language attribute. It would be more logical to have it as an
>> attribute value of its own in a separate humintlang attribute. But
>> that is less compact.
>>
>>  Another syntax question is if whitespace is allowed before the
>> asterisk. SIP says that whitespace is usually allowed around the
>> asterisk, but this is an sdp attribute and in RFC 4566 no such habit
>> is documented.
>>
>>  The result is anyway that we need decisions on the questions above
>> and a matching formal syntax description.
>>
>>  I assume that a syntax description for the current syntax would be
>> this, that we should put in the beginning of 6.5 and call that Syntax
>> and examples:
>>
>>  ------------------------------------Proposed addition to the
>> beginning of 6.5---------------------
>>
>>  6.5 Syntax and examples
>>
>>  The attributes may occur a number of times and follow this syntax:
>>
>>  a=humintlang-send:<language-tag>[<relevance>]
>>
>>  a=humintlang-recv:<language-tag>[<relevance>]
>>
>>  <language-tag> is a language tag according to RFC 4566.
>>
>>  <relevance> is an optional modifier that adds information on the
>> relevance of the attribute or a group of attributes. It consists of
>> characters not allowed in language tags. One value for <relevance> is
>> specified here. It is an asterisk "*" that implies that the call
>> should be accepted even if there is no complete language match between
>> the offeror and that answering party. Other values of the relevance
>> parameter may be defined in other specifications. The order of the
>> values within the relevance parameter is not relevant. Whitespace is
>> not allowed before and within the relevance parameter. Unrecognized
>> values in the relevance parameter shall be ignored.
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>  In 6.3, the paranthesis
>>
>>  "(similar to SIP Accept-Language syntax)"
>>
>>  should be changed to:
>>
>>  "(similar to the purpose of the use of the asterisk in the SIP
>> Accept-Language header )"
>>
>>  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>  /Gunnar
>>
>>
>>
>>  Den 2016-07-21 kl. 20:13, skrev Phillips, Addison:
>>
>>>>  Of course we could define our own syntax for this parameter, but
>>>> then we
>>>>  should not say that it is similar to the use in Accept-Language,
>>>> and we should
>>>>  double check with the rfc 5646 experts to verify that we can append
>>>> the
>>>>  asterisk on the tag.
>>>>
>>>  BCP47 (RFC 4647 in this case) defines some different language
>>> matching schemes besides that of rfc3261. Of interest here is the
>>> concept of "extended language range" which allows for asterisks in a
>>> range.
>>>
>>>
>>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-2.2>https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-2.2
>>>
>>>
>>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-3.3.2>https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-3.3.2
>>>
>>>
>>>  Addison
>>>
>>>  Addison Phillips
>>>  Principal SDE, I18N Architect (Amazon)
>>>  Chair (W3C I18N WG)
>>>
>>>  Internationalization is not a feature.
>>>  It is an architecture.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>  -----Original Message-----
>>>>  From: SLIM
>>>> [<mailto:slim-bounces@ietf.org>mailto:slim-bounces@ietf.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of Gunnar HellstrÃ¶m
>>>>  Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2016 11:08 AM
>>>>  To: <mailto:slim@ietf.org>slim@ietf.org
>>>>  Subject: [Slim] Syntax of combination of language tag and Advisory vs
>>>>  Required indication in draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
>>>>
>>>>  Randall,
>>>>
>>>>  Section 6.3 of draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-04 says:
>>>>  "The mechanism for indicating this preference is that, in an offer,
>>>> if the last
>>>>  character of any of the 'humintlang-recv' or 'humintlang- send'
>>>>  values is an asterisk, this indicates a request to not fail the
>>>> call (similar to SIP
>>>>  Accept-Language syntax)."
>>>>
>>>>  An example from section 6.5 is
>>>>
>>>>    a=humintlang-send:ase*
>>>>
>>>>  I have looked at the syntax description of SIP Accept-Language in RFC
>>>>  3261 section 25.1 , and got to the conclusion that the asterisk is
>>>> used in place
>>>>  of a language tag, and not combined with the language tag as you have
>>>>  specified it for the slim real-time draft.
>>>>
>>>>  So, following that syntax, my interpretation is that we would need
>>>> a syntax
>>>>  according to this example
>>>>
>>>>    a=humintlang-send:*
>>>>
>>>>  or, taking inspiration from the Accept-Language syntax, we could
>>>> change the
>>>>  syntax of our attributes and allow enumeration of the language tags
>>>> comma
>>>>  separated and include the asterisk among them.
>>>>
>>>>    a=humintlang-send:ase, *
>>>>
>>>>  Of course we could define our own syntax for this parameter, but
>>>> then we
>>>>  should not say that it is similar to the use in Accept-Language,
>>>> and we should
>>>>  double check with the rfc 5646 experts to verify that we can append
>>>> the
>>>>  asterisk on the tag.
>>>>
>>>>  Please check this and explain your interpretation, or propose
>>>> modifications.
>>>>
>>>>  /Gunnar
>>>>
>>>>  --
>>>>  -----------------------------------------
>>>>  Gunnar HellstrÃ¶m
>>>>  Omnitor
>>>>  <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>>>  +46 708 204 288
>>>>
>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>  SLIM mailing list
>>>>  <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>SLIM@ietf.org
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>  --
>>  -----------------------------------------
>>  Gunnar HellstrÃ¶m
>>  Omnitor
>>  <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>  +46 708 204 288
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  SLIM mailing list
>>  SLIM@ietf.org
>>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>
>


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From: Natasha Rooney <nrooney@gsma.com>
To: "slim@ietf.org" <slim@ietf.org>
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Subject: [Slim] Documents in WGLC
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Hi all,

Thanks for the meeting this week. We are pleased to announce that both draf=
ts below have entered into Working Group Last Call. We will aim to exit WGL=
C on 12th August, which gives us three week from today.

draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-01
Multiple Language Content Type

draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-01
Negotiating Human Language in Real-Time Communications

Issues: if you have issues please submit these to the IETF Issue Tracker at=
 [1]. Please feel free to discuss items on the list also.

Thanks everyone!

Natasha

[1] https://tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/trac/newticket

Natasha Rooney | Technologist, Web and Internet, W3C & IETF | GSMA | nroone=
y@gsma.com<mailto:nrooney@gsma.com> | +44 (0) 7730 219 765 | @thisNatasha |=
 Skype: nrooney@gsm.org<mailto:nrooney@gsm.org>



This email and its attachments are intended for the above named only and ma=
y be confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take no actio=
n based on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; please reply to =
this email or call +44 207 356 0600 and highlight the error.

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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"=
>
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
Hi all,
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Thanks for the meeting this week. We are pleased to announc=
e that both drafts below have entered into Working Group Last Call. We will=
 aim to exit WGLC on 12th August, which gives us three week from today.&nbs=
p;
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-01&nbsp;<br class=3D"">
Multiple Language Content Type<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-01&nbsp;<br class=3D"">
Negotiating Human Language in Real-Time&nbsp;Communications</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""><b class=3D"">Issues: </b>if you have issues please submit =
these to the IETF Issue Tracker at [1]. Please feel free to discuss items o=
n the list also.&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Thanks everyone!</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; t=
ext-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: norm=
al; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-w=
rap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-=
space;" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; t=
ext-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: norm=
al; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-w=
rap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-=
space;" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; t=
ext-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: norm=
al; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-w=
rap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-=
space;" class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Natasha<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
[1]&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/trac/newticket" class=3D=
"">https://tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/trac/newticket</a><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Natasha Rooney | Technologist, Web&nbsp;and Internet, W3C &amp; IETF | GSMA=
 |&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:nrooney@gsma.com" class=3D"">nrooney@gsma.com</a>=
&nbsp;| &#43;44 (0) 7730&nbsp;219 765 | @thisNatasha | Skype:&nbsp;<a href=
=3D"mailto:nrooney@gsm.org" class=3D"">nrooney@gsm.org</a><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
</div>
<p style=3D"font-family: Arial,sans-serif;font-size:11px;color:#999999;"><s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial,sans-serif;color:#999999; ms=
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From: Bernard Aboba <bernard.aboba@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 12:46:52 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Slim] Documents in WGLC
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Also --

As noted in the WG session on Tuesday, RFC 6701 ("Sanctions Available for
Application to Violators of IETF IPR Policy")  notes that:

   it is important to understand that the impact that an IPR disclosure has
   on the smooth working of the IETF is directly related to how late in
   the process the disclosure is made.


Our expectation is that IPR declarations will be submitted by the end of WG
last call on 12 August.

On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Natasha Rooney <nrooney@gsma.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Thanks for the meeting this week. We are pleased to announce that both
> drafts below have entered into Working Group Last Call. We will aim to exit
> WGLC on 12th August, which gives us three week from today.
>
> draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-01
> Multiple Language Content Type
>
> draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-01
> Negotiating Human Language in Real-Time Communications
>
> *Issues: *if you have issues please submit these to the IETF Issue
> Tracker at [1]. Please feel free to discuss items on the list also.
>
> Thanks everyone!
>
> Natasha
>
> [1] https://tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/trac/newticket
>
> Natasha Rooney | Technologist, Web and Internet, W3C & IETF | GSMA |
> nrooney@gsma.com | +44 (0) 7730 219 765 | @thisNatasha | Skype:
> nrooney@gsm.org
>
>
> This email and its attachments are intended for the above named only and
> may be confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take no
> action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; please
> reply to this email or call +44 207 356 0600 and highlight the error.
>
> _______________________________________________
> SLIM mailing list
> SLIM@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Also --<div><br></div><div>As noted in the WG session on T=
uesday, RFC 6701 (&quot;<span style=3D"font-size:1em;font-weight:bold;text-=
decoration:underline">Sanctions Available for Application to Violators of I=
ETF IPR Policy</span>&quot;) =C2=A0notes that:=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><d=
iv><pre class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-botto=
m:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0)">   it is important to understand that the impact th=
at an IPR disclosure has
   on the smooth working of the IETF is directly related to how late in
   the process the disclosure is made. </pre></div><div><br></div><div>Our =
expectation is that IPR declarations will be submitted by the end of WG las=
t call on 12 August.=C2=A0</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Natasha Rooney <span=
 dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nrooney@gsma.com" target=3D"_blank">nroo=
ney@gsma.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
Hi all,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks for the meeting this week. We are pleased to announce that both=
 drafts below have entered into Working Group Last Call. We will aim to exi=
t WGLC on 12th August, which gives us three week from today.=C2=A0
<div><br>
draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-01=C2=A0<br>
Multiple Language Content Type<br>
<br>
draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-01=C2=A0<br>
Negotiating Human Language in Real-Time=C2=A0Communications</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><b>Issues: </b>if you have issues please submit these to the IETF Issu=
e Tracker at [1]. Please feel free to discuss items on the list also.=C2=A0=
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks everyone!</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word">
<br>
Natasha<br>
<br>
[1]=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/trac/newticket" target=
=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/trac/newticket</a><br>
<br>
Natasha Rooney | Technologist, Web=C2=A0and Internet, W3C &amp; IETF | GSMA=
 |=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:nrooney@gsma.com" target=3D"_blank">nrooney@gsma.=
com</a>=C2=A0| <a href=3D"tel:%2B44%20%280%29%207730%C2%A0219%20765" value=
=3D"+447730219765" target=3D"_blank">+44 (0) 7730=C2=A0219 765</a> | @thisN=
atasha | Skype:=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:nrooney@gsm.org" target=3D"_blank">n=
rooney@gsm.org</a><br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<p style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:11px;color:#999999"><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:#999999">This
 email and its attachments are intended for the above named only and may be=
 confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take no action ba=
sed on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; please reply to this=
 email or call <a href=3D"tel:%2B44%20207%20356%200600" value=3D"+442073560=
600" target=3D"_blank">+44 207 356 0600</a>
 and highlight the error. </span></p>
</div>

<br>_______________________________________________<br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

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Subject: Re: [Slim] Documents in WGLC
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Natasha,

A large number of issues have been cleared up to 
draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-04

Can you make that the base for the WGLC instead?

Or, what is the procedure for getting version -04 recognized?

/Gunnar


Den 2016-07-22 kl. 12:39, skrev Natasha Rooney:
> Hi all,
>
> Thanks for the meeting this week. We are pleased to announce that both 
> drafts below have entered into Working Group Last Call. We will aim to 
> exit WGLC on 12th August, which gives us three week from today.
>
> draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-01
> Multiple Language Content Type
>
> draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-01
> Negotiating Human Language in Real-Time Communications
>
> *Issues: *if you have issues please submit these to the IETF Issue 
> Tracker at [1]. Please feel free to discuss items on the list also.
>
> Thanks everyone!
>
> Natasha
>
> [1] https://tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/trac/newticket
>
> Natasha Rooney | Technologist, Web and Internet, W3C & IETF | GSMA | 
> nrooney@gsma.com <mailto:nrooney@gsma.com> | +44 (0) 7730 219 765 | 
> @thisNatasha | Skype: nrooney@gsm.org <mailto:nrooney@gsm.org>
>
>
> This email and its attachments are intended for the above named only 
> and may be confidential. If they have come to you in error you must 
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-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
+46 708 204 288


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<html>
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      http-equiv="Content-Type">
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  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <p>Natasha,</p>
    <p>A large number of issues have been cleared up to
      draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-04</p>
    <p>Can you make that the base for the WGLC instead?</p>
    <p>Or, what is the procedure for getting version -04 recognized?</p>
    <p>/Gunnar<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Den 2016-07-22 kl. 12:39, skrev Natasha
      Rooney:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:56128392-5138-487C-9D99-151BC4C13D34@gsma.com"
      type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
        charset=windows-1252">
      Hi all,
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">Thanks for the meeting this week. We are pleased to
        announce that both drafts below have entered into Working Group
        Last Call. We will aim to exit WGLC on 12th August, which gives
        us three week from today. 
        <div class=""><br class="">
          draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-01 <br class="">
          Multiple Language Content Type<br class="">
          <br class="">
          draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-01 <br class="">
          Negotiating Human Language in Real-Time Communications</div>
        <div class=""><br class="">
        </div>
        <div class=""><b class="">Issues: </b>if you have issues please
          submit these to the IETF Issue Tracker at [1]. Please feel
          free to discuss items on the list also. </div>
        <div class=""><br class="">
        </div>
        <div class="">Thanks everyone!</div>
        <div class="">
          <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal;
            orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
            text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
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            -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
            <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal;
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              text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
              word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
              word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
              -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
              <div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal;
                orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
                text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
                word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
                word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
                -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">
                <br class="">
                Natasha<br class="">
                <br class="">
                [1] <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="https://tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/trac/newticket"
                  class="">https://tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/trac/newticket</a><br
                  class="">
                <br class="">
                Natasha Rooney | Technologist, Web and Internet, W3C
                &amp; IETF | GSMA | <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:nrooney@gsma.com" class="">nrooney@gsma.com</a> |
                +44 (0) 7730 219 765 | @thisNatasha | Skype: <a
                  moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:nrooney@gsm.org"
                  class="">nrooney@gsm.org</a><br class="">
                <br class="">
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
        <br class="">
      </div>
      <p style="font-family:
        Arial,sans-serif;font-size:11px;color:#999999;"><span
          style="font-family: Arial,sans-serif;color:#999999;
          mso-fareast-font-family: Arial; mso-fareast-theme-font:
          minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family: &quot;Arial&quot;;
          mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-GB;
          mso-bidi-language: AR-SA" lang="EN-US">This email and its
          attachments are intended for the above named only and may be
          confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take
          no action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to
          anyone; please reply to this email or call +44 207 356 0600
          and highlight the error. </span></p>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
SLIM mailing list
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</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>
+46 708 204 288</pre>
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Subject: Re: [Slim] Syntax of combination of language tag and Advisory vs Required indication in draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
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Den 2016-07-22 kl. 10:31, skrev Martin J. DÃ¼rst:

> On 2016/07/22 16:34, Randall Gellens wrote:
>> The feature to add a means to indicate a preference to not fail the
>> call, and the asterisk notation to do so, was suggested during the
>> February 2013 in-person discussion on the real-time draft at IETF 86 in
>> Orlando:
>>
>>>  Advisory vs Required:
>>>  - Does call fail if no common language?
>>>  - Define token for use in offer to indicate caller's preference to
>>> fail call or not if no common language.
>>>  - One choice is to say that if the last character of the send-lang or
>>> recv-lan value an asterisk, this indicates a request to not fail the
>>> call (similar to SIP Accept-Language syntax).  Either way, the called
>>> party may ignore this, e.g., for the emergency services use case, a
>>> PSAP will likely not fail the call.
>>
>> We can easily delete the "(similar to SIP Accept-Language syntax)" text
>> if that is causing heartburn.  I suggest sending a request to do so as a
>> WGLC comment.
>
> Hello Randy,
>
> Thanks for giving the history of this particular item.
>
> However, I strongly suggest that this be changed so that it matches 
> better what other IETF protocols and related specifications do.
>
> If somebody sees something like
> a=humintlang-send:en*
> there's a big chance they interpret it as "any kind of English", 
> rather than as "English, or anything else if that's not available", 
> although as far as I understand, according to the current spec, it 
> would be the later. Such misunderstandings might happen to anybody who 
> knows HTTP or SMTP or SIP or BCP 47, which is a wide range of people.
>
> The current interpretation also makes one think what
> a=humintlang-send:en*
> a=humintlang-send:es
> means. It probably means "English, or anything else if it's not 
> available, or Spanish, but don't care to provide anything else if 
> Spanish isn't available." This is very subtly, and probably 
> needlessly, different from "English, or Spanish, or anything else if 
> these are not available" (actually, I have to admit I'm not sure it's 
> different or not, but that alone is a bad sign for this design).
Good point.
How about using a syntax exactly as the Accept-Language for each medium 
and direction.
That will then be a comma separated list, with the asterisk as one 
element if so wanted.


humintlang-send  =  "a=humintlang-send" HCOLON
                      [ language *(COMMA language) ]
language         =  language-range *(SEMI accept-param)
language-range   =  ( ( 1*8ALPHA *( "-" 1*8ALPHA ) ) / "*" )
accept-param   =  ("q" EQUAL qvalue) / generic-param
qvalue         =  ( "0" [ "." 0*3DIGIT ] )
                   / ( "1" [ "." 0*3("0") ] )
generic-param  =  token [ EQUAL gen-value ]
gen-value      =  token / host / quoted-string

And similarly for humintlang-recv


It is likely more efficient to stick to an already defined format than invent a new.

/Gunnar


>
> Regards,   Martin.
>
>> --Randy
>>
>> At 9:04 AM +0200 7/22/16, Gunnar HellstrÃ¶m wrote:
>>
>>>  What I meant with this topic was to check if our syntax for use of
>>> the asterisk is safe and non-ambiguous.
>>>
>>>  And then I discovered that the syntax is not similar to the use in
>>> Accept-language as the text in 6.3 says. Accept-language has the
>>> asterisk comma-separated from the language tags ( "en, *" ). I find
>>> no previous use of an asterisk tacked on directly to the language tag
>>> as our examples show ( "en*" ).
>>>
>>>  But since the language tag is alphanumeric, and RFC 4566 allows
>>> attribute values to be any byte string, the syntax seems allowable. I
>>> would like other's views on if it is advisable.
>>>
>>>  The similarity with the Accept-language is not the syntax, but the
>>> intention of use. The asterisk shows that language-matching does not
>>> need to be successfully completed for the call to be accepted. The
>>> reasoning says that that is usually the case anyway.
>>>
>>>  The syntax is not really logical. The asterisk does not belong to any
>>> specific language attribute. It would be more logical to have it as an
>>> attribute value of its own in a separate humintlang attribute. But
>>> that is less compact.
>>>
>>>  Another syntax question is if whitespace is allowed before the
>>> asterisk. SIP says that whitespace is usually allowed around the
>>> asterisk, but this is an sdp attribute and in RFC 4566 no such habit
>>> is documented.
>>>
>>>  The result is anyway that we need decisions on the questions above
>>> and a matching formal syntax description.
>>>
>>>  I assume that a syntax description for the current syntax would be
>>> this, that we should put in the beginning of 6.5 and call that Syntax
>>> and examples:
>>>
>>>  ------------------------------------Proposed addition to the
>>> beginning of 6.5---------------------
>>>
>>>  6.5 Syntax and examples
>>>
>>>  The attributes may occur a number of times and follow this syntax:
>>>
>>>  a=humintlang-send:<language-tag>[<relevance>]
>>>
>>>  a=humintlang-recv:<language-tag>[<relevance>]
>>>
>>>  <language-tag> is a language tag according to RFC 4566.
>>>
>>>  <relevance> is an optional modifier that adds information on the
>>> relevance of the attribute or a group of attributes. It consists of
>>> characters not allowed in language tags. One value for <relevance> is
>>> specified here. It is an asterisk "*" that implies that the call
>>> should be accepted even if there is no complete language match between
>>> the offeror and that answering party. Other values of the relevance
>>> parameter may be defined in other specifications. The order of the
>>> values within the relevance parameter is not relevant. Whitespace is
>>> not allowed before and within the relevance parameter. Unrecognized
>>> values in the relevance parameter shall be ignored.
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  In 6.3, the paranthesis
>>>
>>>  "(similar to SIP Accept-Language syntax)"
>>>
>>>  should be changed to:
>>>
>>>  "(similar to the purpose of the use of the asterisk in the SIP
>>> Accept-Language header )"
>>>
>>>  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  /Gunnar
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Den 2016-07-21 kl. 20:13, skrev Phillips, Addison:
>>>
>>>>>  Of course we could define our own syntax for this parameter, but
>>>>> then we
>>>>>  should not say that it is similar to the use in Accept-Language,
>>>>> and we should
>>>>>  double check with the rfc 5646 experts to verify that we can append
>>>>> the
>>>>>  asterisk on the tag.
>>>>>
>>>>  BCP47 (RFC 4647 in this case) defines some different language
>>>> matching schemes besides that of rfc3261. Of interest here is the
>>>> concept of "extended language range" which allows for asterisks in a
>>>> range.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-2.2>https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-2.2 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-3.3.2>https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-3.3.2 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Addison
>>>>
>>>>  Addison Phillips
>>>>  Principal SDE, I18N Architect (Amazon)
>>>>  Chair (W3C I18N WG)
>>>>
>>>>  Internationalization is not a feature.
>>>>  It is an architecture.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>  -----Original Message-----
>>>>>  From: SLIM
>>>>> [<mailto:slim-bounces@ietf.org>mailto:slim-bounces@ietf.org] On
>>>>> Behalf Of Gunnar HellstrÃ¶m
>>>>>  Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2016 11:08 AM
>>>>>  To: <mailto:slim@ietf.org>slim@ietf.org
>>>>>  Subject: [Slim] Syntax of combination of language tag and 
>>>>> Advisory vs
>>>>>  Required indication in draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
>>>>>
>>>>>  Randall,
>>>>>
>>>>>  Section 6.3 of draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-04 says:
>>>>>  "The mechanism for indicating this preference is that, in an offer,
>>>>> if the last
>>>>>  character of any of the 'humintlang-recv' or 'humintlang- send'
>>>>>  values is an asterisk, this indicates a request to not fail the
>>>>> call (similar to SIP
>>>>>  Accept-Language syntax)."
>>>>>
>>>>>  An example from section 6.5 is
>>>>>
>>>>>    a=humintlang-send:ase*
>>>>>
>>>>>  I have looked at the syntax description of SIP Accept-Language in 
>>>>> RFC
>>>>>  3261 section 25.1 , and got to the conclusion that the asterisk is
>>>>> used in place
>>>>>  of a language tag, and not combined with the language tag as you 
>>>>> have
>>>>>  specified it for the slim real-time draft.
>>>>>
>>>>>  So, following that syntax, my interpretation is that we would need
>>>>> a syntax
>>>>>  according to this example
>>>>>
>>>>>    a=humintlang-send:*
>>>>>
>>>>>  or, taking inspiration from the Accept-Language syntax, we could
>>>>> change the
>>>>>  syntax of our attributes and allow enumeration of the language tags
>>>>> comma
>>>>>  separated and include the asterisk among them.
>>>>>
>>>>>    a=humintlang-send:ase, *
>>>>>
>>>>>  Of course we could define our own syntax for this parameter, but
>>>>> then we
>>>>>  should not say that it is similar to the use in Accept-Language,
>>>>> and we should
>>>>>  double check with the rfc 5646 experts to verify that we can append
>>>>> the
>>>>>  asterisk on the tag.
>>>>>
>>>>>  Please check this and explain your interpretation, or propose
>>>>> modifications.
>>>>>
>>>>>  /Gunnar
>>>>>
>>>>>  --
>>>>>  -----------------------------------------
>>>>>  Gunnar HellstrÃ¶m
>>>>>  Omnitor
>>>>>  <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>>>>  +46 708 204 288
>>>>>
>>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>>  SLIM mailing list
>>>>>  <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>SLIM@ietf.org
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>  --
>>>  -----------------------------------------
>>>  Gunnar HellstrÃ¶m
>>>  Omnitor
>>>  <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>>  +46 708 204 288
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>  SLIM mailing list
>>>  SLIM@ietf.org
>>>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>>
>>

-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar HellstrÃ¶m
Omnitor
gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
+46 708 204 288


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    <p>Den 2016-07-22 kl. 10:31, skrev Martin J. DÃ¼rst:<br>
    </p>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:3b8e4df7-a6d6-e33d-a023-58186c1a4354@it.aoyama.ac.jp"
      type="cite">On 2016/07/22 16:34, Randall Gellens wrote:
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">The feature to add a means to indicate a
        preference to not fail the
        <br>
        call, and the asterisk notation to do so, was suggested during
        the
        <br>
        February 2013 in-person discussion on the real-time draft at
        IETF 86 in
        <br>
        Orlando:
        <br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type="cite">Â Advisory vs Required:
          <br>
          Â - Does call fail if no common language?
          <br>
          Â - Define token for use in offer to indicate caller's
          preference to
          <br>
          fail call or not if no common language.
          <br>
          Â - One choice is to say that if the last character of the
          send-lang or
          <br>
          recv-lan value an asterisk, this indicates a request to not
          fail the
          <br>
          call (similar to SIP Accept-Language syntax).Â  Either way, the
          called
          <br>
          party may ignore this, e.g., for the emergency services use
          case, a
          <br>
          PSAP will likely not fail the call.
          <br>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
        We can easily delete the "(similar to SIP Accept-Language
        syntax)" text
        <br>
        if that is causing heartburn.Â  I suggest sending a request to do
        so as a
        <br>
        WGLC comment.
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      Hello Randy,
      <br>
      <br>
      Thanks for giving the history of this particular item.
      <br>
      <br>
      However, I strongly suggest that this be changed so that it
      matches better what other IETF protocols and related
      specifications do.
      <br>
      <br>
      If somebody sees something like
      <br>
      a=humintlang-send:en*
      <br>
      there's a big chance they interpret it as "any kind of English",
      rather than as "English, or anything else if that's not
      available", although as far as I understand, according to the
      current spec, it would be the later. Such misunderstandings might
      happen to anybody who knows HTTP or SMTP or SIP or BCP 47, which
      is a wide range of people.
      <br>
      <br>
      The current interpretation also makes one think what
      <br>
      a=humintlang-send:en*
      <br>
      a=humintlang-send:es
      <br>
      means. It probably means "English, or anything else if it's not
      available, or Spanish, but don't care to provide anything else if
      Spanish isn't available." This is very subtly, and probably
      needlessly, different from "English, or Spanish, or anything else
      if these are not available" (actually, I have to admit I'm not
      sure it's different or not, but that alone is a bad sign for this
      design).
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    Good point. <br>
    How about using a syntax exactly as the Accept-Language for each
    medium and direction. <br>
    That will then be a comma separated list, with the asterisk as one
    element if so wanted.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <pre style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 1; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; white-space: pre-wrap;">humintlang-send  =  "a=humintlang-send" HCOLON
                     [ language *(COMMA language) ]
language         =  language-range *(SEMI accept-param)
language-range   =  ( ( 1*8ALPHA *( "-" 1*8ALPHA ) ) / "*" )
accept-param   =  ("q" EQUAL qvalue) / generic-param
qvalue         =  ( "0" [ "." 0*3DIGIT ] )
                  / ( "1" [ "." 0*3("0") ] )
generic-param  =  token [ EQUAL gen-value ]
gen-value      =  token / host / quoted-string

And similarly for humintlang-recv


It is likely more efficient to stick to an already defined format than invent a new.

/Gunnar

</pre>
    <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:3b8e4df7-a6d6-e33d-a023-58186c1a4354@it.aoyama.ac.jp"
      type="cite">
      <br>
      Regards,Â Â  Martin.
      <br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">--Randy
        <br>
        <br>
        At 9:04 AM +0200 7/22/16, Gunnar HellstrÃ¶m wrote:
        <br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type="cite">Â What I meant with this topic was to
          check if our syntax for use of
          <br>
          the asterisk is safe and non-ambiguous.
          <br>
          <br>
          Â And then I discovered that the syntax is not similar to the
          use in
          <br>
          Accept-language as the text in 6.3 says. Accept-language has
          the
          <br>
          asterisk comma-separated from the language tags ( "en, *" ).Â 
          I find
          <br>
          no previous use of an asterisk tacked on directly to the
          language tag
          <br>
          as our examples show ( "en*" ).
          <br>
          <br>
          Â But since the language tag is alphanumeric, and RFC 4566
          allows
          <br>
          attribute values to be any byte string, the syntax seems
          allowable. I
          <br>
          would like other's views on if it is advisable.
          <br>
          <br>
          Â The similarity with the Accept-language is not the syntax,
          but the
          <br>
          intention of use. The asterisk shows that language-matching
          does not
          <br>
          need to be successfully completed for the call to be accepted.
          The
          <br>
          reasoning says that that is usually the case anyway.
          <br>
          <br>
          Â The syntax is not really logical. The asterisk does not
          belong to any
          <br>
          specific language attribute. It would be more logical to have
          it as an
          <br>
          attribute value of its own in a separate humintlang attribute.
          But
          <br>
          that is less compact.
          <br>
          <br>
          Â Another syntax question is if whitespace is allowed before
          the
          <br>
          asterisk. SIP says that whitespace is usually allowed around
          the
          <br>
          asterisk, but this is an sdp attribute and in RFC 4566 no such
          habit
          <br>
          is documented.
          <br>
          <br>
          Â The result is anyway that we need decisions on the questions
          above
          <br>
          and a matching formal syntax description.
          <br>
          <br>
          Â I assume that a syntax description for the current syntax
          would be
          <br>
          this, that we should put in the beginning of 6.5 and call that
          Syntax
          <br>
          and examples:
          <br>
          <br>
          Â ------------------------------------Proposed addition to the
          <br>
          beginning of 6.5---------------------
          <br>
          <br>
          Â 6.5 Syntax and examples
          <br>
          <br>
          Â The attributes may occur a number of times and follow this
          syntax:
          <br>
          <br>
          Â a=humintlang-send:&lt;language-tag&gt;[&lt;relevance&gt;]
          <br>
          <br>
          Â a=humintlang-recv:&lt;language-tag&gt;[&lt;relevance&gt;]
          <br>
          <br>
          Â &lt;language-tag&gt; is a language tag according to RFC 4566.
          <br>
          <br>
          Â &lt;relevance&gt; is an optional modifier that adds
          information on the
          <br>
          relevance of the attribute or a group of attributes. It
          consists of
          <br>
          characters not allowed in language tags. One value for
          &lt;relevance&gt; is
          <br>
          specified here. It is an asterisk "*" that implies that the
          call
          <br>
          should be accepted even if there is no complete language match
          between
          <br>
          the offeror and that answering party. Other values of the
          relevance
          <br>
          parameter may be defined in other specifications. The order of
          the
          <br>
          values within the relevance parameter is not relevant.
          Whitespace is
          <br>
          not allowed before and within the relevance parameter.
          Unrecognized
          <br>
          values in the relevance parameter shall be ignored.
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          Â In 6.3, the paranthesis
          <br>
          <br>
          Â "(similar to SIP Accept-Language syntax)"
          <br>
          <br>
          Â should be changed to:
          <br>
          <br>
          Â "(similar to the purpose of the use of the asterisk in the
          SIP
          <br>
          Accept-Language header )"
          <br>
          <br>
Â ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          Â /Gunnar
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          <br>
          Â Den 2016-07-21 kl. 20:13, skrev Phillips, Addison:
          <br>
          <br>
          <blockquote type="cite">
            <blockquote type="cite">Â Of course we could define our own
              syntax for this parameter, but
              <br>
              then we
              <br>
              Â should not say that it is similar to the use in
              Accept-Language,
              <br>
              and we should
              <br>
              Â double check with the rfc 5646 experts to verify that we
              can append
              <br>
              the
              <br>
              Â asterisk on the tag.
              <br>
              <br>
            </blockquote>
            Â BCP47 (RFC 4647 in this case) defines some different
            language
            <br>
            matching schemes besides that of rfc3261. Of interest here
            is the
            <br>
            concept of "extended language range" which allows for
            asterisks in a
            <br>
            range.
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-2.2">&lt;https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-2.2&gt;</a><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-2.2">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-2.2</a>
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-3.3.2">&lt;https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-3.3.2&gt;</a><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-3.3.2">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-3.3.2</a>
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
            Â Addison
            <br>
            <br>
            Â Addison Phillips
            <br>
            Â Principal SDE, I18N Architect (Amazon)
            <br>
            Â Chair (W3C I18N WG)
            <br>
            <br>
            Â Internationalization is not a feature.
            <br>
            Â It is an architecture.
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <blockquote type="cite">Â -----Original Message-----
              <br>
              Â From: SLIM
              <br>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:slim-bounces@ietf.org">&lt;mailto:slim-bounces@ietf.org&gt;</a><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:slim-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:slim-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On
              <br>
              Behalf Of Gunnar HellstrÃ¶m
              <br>
              Â Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2016 11:08 AM
              <br>
              Â To: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:slim@ietf.org">&lt;mailto:slim@ietf.org&gt;</a><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:slim@ietf.org">slim@ietf.org</a>
              <br>
              Â Subject: [Slim] Syntax of combination of language tag and
              Advisory vs
              <br>
              Â Required indication in
              draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
              <br>
              <br>
              Â Randall,
              <br>
              <br>
              Â Section 6.3 of
              draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-04 says:
              <br>
              Â "The mechanism for indicating this preference is that, in
              an offer,
              <br>
              if the last
              <br>
              Â character of any of the 'humintlang-recv' or 'humintlang-
              send'
              <br>
              Â values is an asterisk, this indicates a request to not
              fail the
              <br>
              call (similar to SIP
              <br>
              Â Accept-Language syntax)."
              <br>
              <br>
              Â An example from section 6.5 is
              <br>
              <br>
              Â Â  a=humintlang-send:ase*
              <br>
              <br>
              Â I have looked at the syntax description of SIP
              Accept-Language in RFC
              <br>
              Â 3261 section 25.1 , and got to the conclusion that the
              asterisk is
              <br>
              used in place
              <br>
              Â of a language tag, and not combined with the language tag
              as you have
              <br>
              Â specified it for the slim real-time draft.
              <br>
              <br>
              Â So, following that syntax, my interpretation is that we
              would need
              <br>
              a syntax
              <br>
              Â according to this example
              <br>
              <br>
              Â Â  a=humintlang-send:*
              <br>
              <br>
              Â or, taking inspiration from the Accept-Language syntax,
              we could
              <br>
              change the
              <br>
              Â syntax of our attributes and allow enumeration of the
              language tags
              <br>
              comma
              <br>
              Â separated and include the asterisk among them.
              <br>
              <br>
              Â Â  a=humintlang-send:ase, *
              <br>
              <br>
              Â Of course we could define our own syntax for this
              parameter, but
              <br>
              then we
              <br>
              Â should not say that it is similar to the use in
              Accept-Language,
              <br>
              and we should
              <br>
              Â double check with the rfc 5646 experts to verify that we
              can append
              <br>
              the
              <br>
              Â asterisk on the tag.
              <br>
              <br>
              Â Please check this and explain your interpretation, or
              propose
              <br>
              modifications.
              <br>
              <br>
              Â /Gunnar
              <br>
              <br>
              Â --
              <br>
              Â -----------------------------------------
              <br>
              Â Gunnar HellstrÃ¶m
              <br>
              Â Omnitor
              <br>
Â <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">&lt;mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se&gt;</a><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>
              <br>
              Â +46 708 204 288
              <br>
              <br>
              Â _______________________________________________
              <br>
              Â SLIM mailing list
              <br>
              Â <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:SLIM@ietf.org">&lt;mailto:SLIM@ietf.org&gt;</a><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:SLIM@ietf.org">SLIM@ietf.org</a>
              <br>
              <br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim">&lt;https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim&gt;</a><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a>
              <br>
              <br>
              <br>
            </blockquote>
          </blockquote>
          <br>
          Â --
          <br>
          Â -----------------------------------------
          <br>
          Â Gunnar HellstrÃ¶m
          <br>
          Â Omnitor
          <br>
Â <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">&lt;mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se&gt;</a><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>
          <br>
          Â +46 708 204 288
          <br>
          <br>
          Â _______________________________________________
          <br>
          Â SLIM mailing list
          <br>
          Â <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:SLIM@ietf.org">SLIM@ietf.org</a>
          <br>
          Â <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a>
          <br>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
        <br>
      </blockquote>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar HellstrÃ¶m
Omnitor
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>
+46 708 204 288</pre>
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From: Bernard Aboba <bernard.aboba@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 13:35:35 +0200
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Cc: Colin Perkins <csp@csperkins.org>
Subject: [Slim] Discussion of "lang" attribute in MMUSIC WG
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--001a1143fa7869237d053837d674
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We had a short discussion of the history of the "lang" attribute within the
MMUSIC WG meeting today (July 22).

Colin Perkins pointed out that the text for the "lang" attribute originated
in RFC 2327 which was published in April 1998, and did not change much if
at all in RFC 4566 (published in July 2006). Therefore it would appear that
the RFC 4566bis revision to that text is the first time that this language
has been modified in 19 years.  This may be indicative of minimal
implementer interest.
When asked whether anyone at the MMUSIC WG had implemented the "lang"
attribute, there was no response.

Since the "lang" attribute text in question predates SIP (RFC 2543), as
well as Offer/Answer (RFC 3264), it was likely to have been originally
intended for use in multicast conferencing (which was mainstream at the
time) rather than in SIP-based Offer/Answer, which came later.

--001a1143fa7869237d053837d674
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<div dir=3D"ltr">We had a short discussion of the history of the &quot;lang=
&quot; attribute within the MMUSIC WG meeting today (July 22).=C2=A0<div><b=
r></div><div>Colin Perkins pointed out that the text for the &quot;lang&quo=
t; attribute originated in RFC 2327 which was published in April 1998, and =
did not change much if at all in RFC 4566 (published in July 2006). Therefo=
re it would appear that the RFC 4566bis revision to that text is the first =
time that this language has been modified in 19 years.=C2=A0 This may be in=
dicative of minimal implementer interest.</div><div>When asked whether anyo=
ne at the MMUSIC WG had implemented the &quot;lang&quot; attribute, there w=
as no response.=C2=A0<br></div><div><br></div><div>Since the &quot;lang&quo=
t; attribute text in question predates SIP (RFC 2543), as well as Offer/Ans=
wer (RFC 3264), it was likely to have been originally intended for use in m=
ulticast conferencing (which was mainstream at the time) rather than in SIP=
-based Offer/Answer, which came later.=C2=A0</div></div>

--001a1143fa7869237d053837d674--


From nobody Fri Jul 22 04:43:19 2016
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/slim/xsgbYNxVeGaRWpHHCT81UGeygCo>
Subject: Re: [Slim] Syntax of combination of language tag and Advisory vs Required indication in draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
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+1

On 7/22/16 7:26 AM, Gunnar Hellström wrote:

> Good point.
> How about using a syntax exactly as the Accept-Language for each medium
> and direction.
> That will then be a comma separated list, with the asterisk as one
> element if so wanted.
>
>
> humintlang-send  =  "a=humintlang-send" HCOLON
>                      [ language *(COMMA language) ]
> language         =  language-range *(SEMI accept-param)
> language-range   =  ( ( 1*8ALPHA *( "-" 1*8ALPHA ) ) / "*" )
> accept-param   =  ("q" EQUAL qvalue) / generic-param
> qvalue         =  ( "0" [ "." 0*3DIGIT ] )
>                   / ( "1" [ "." 0*3("0") ] )
> generic-param  =  token [ EQUAL gen-value ]
> gen-value      =  token / host / quoted-string
>
> And similarly for humintlang-recv
>
>
> It is likely more efficient to stick to an already defined format than invent a new.
>
> /Gunnar
>
>
>>
>> Regards,   Martin.
>>
>>> --Randy
>>>
>>> At 9:04 AM +0200 7/22/16, Gunnar Hellström wrote:
>>>
>>>>  What I meant with this topic was to check if our syntax for use of
>>>> the asterisk is safe and non-ambiguous.
>>>>
>>>>  And then I discovered that the syntax is not similar to the use in
>>>> Accept-language as the text in 6.3 says. Accept-language has the
>>>> asterisk comma-separated from the language tags ( "en, *" ).  I find
>>>> no previous use of an asterisk tacked on directly to the language tag
>>>> as our examples show ( "en*" ).
>>>>
>>>>  But since the language tag is alphanumeric, and RFC 4566 allows
>>>> attribute values to be any byte string, the syntax seems allowable. I
>>>> would like other's views on if it is advisable.
>>>>
>>>>  The similarity with the Accept-language is not the syntax, but the
>>>> intention of use. The asterisk shows that language-matching does not
>>>> need to be successfully completed for the call to be accepted. The
>>>> reasoning says that that is usually the case anyway.
>>>>
>>>>  The syntax is not really logical. The asterisk does not belong to any
>>>> specific language attribute. It would be more logical to have it as an
>>>> attribute value of its own in a separate humintlang attribute. But
>>>> that is less compact.
>>>>
>>>>  Another syntax question is if whitespace is allowed before the
>>>> asterisk. SIP says that whitespace is usually allowed around the
>>>> asterisk, but this is an sdp attribute and in RFC 4566 no such habit
>>>> is documented.
>>>>
>>>>  The result is anyway that we need decisions on the questions above
>>>> and a matching formal syntax description.
>>>>
>>>>  I assume that a syntax description for the current syntax would be
>>>> this, that we should put in the beginning of 6.5 and call that Syntax
>>>> and examples:
>>>>
>>>>  ------------------------------------Proposed addition to the
>>>> beginning of 6.5---------------------
>>>>
>>>>  6.5 Syntax and examples
>>>>
>>>>  The attributes may occur a number of times and follow this syntax:
>>>>
>>>>  a=humintlang-send:<language-tag>[<relevance>]
>>>>
>>>>  a=humintlang-recv:<language-tag>[<relevance>]
>>>>
>>>>  <language-tag> is a language tag according to RFC 4566.
>>>>
>>>>  <relevance> is an optional modifier that adds information on the
>>>> relevance of the attribute or a group of attributes. It consists of
>>>> characters not allowed in language tags. One value for <relevance> is
>>>> specified here. It is an asterisk "*" that implies that the call
>>>> should be accepted even if there is no complete language match between
>>>> the offeror and that answering party. Other values of the relevance
>>>> parameter may be defined in other specifications. The order of the
>>>> values within the relevance parameter is not relevant. Whitespace is
>>>> not allowed before and within the relevance parameter. Unrecognized
>>>> values in the relevance parameter shall be ignored.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  In 6.3, the paranthesis
>>>>
>>>>  "(similar to SIP Accept-Language syntax)"
>>>>
>>>>  should be changed to:
>>>>
>>>>  "(similar to the purpose of the use of the asterisk in the SIP
>>>> Accept-Language header )"
>>>>
>>>>  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  /Gunnar
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Den 2016-07-21 kl. 20:13, skrev Phillips, Addison:
>>>>
>>>>>>  Of course we could define our own syntax for this parameter, but
>>>>>> then we
>>>>>>  should not say that it is similar to the use in Accept-Language,
>>>>>> and we should
>>>>>>  double check with the rfc 5646 experts to verify that we can append
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>  asterisk on the tag.
>>>>>>
>>>>>  BCP47 (RFC 4647 in this case) defines some different language
>>>>> matching schemes besides that of rfc3261. Of interest here is the
>>>>> concept of "extended language range" which allows for asterisks in a
>>>>> range.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-2.2>https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-2.2
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-3.3.2>https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-3.3.2
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  Addison
>>>>>
>>>>>  Addison Phillips
>>>>>  Principal SDE, I18N Architect (Amazon)
>>>>>  Chair (W3C I18N WG)
>>>>>
>>>>>  Internationalization is not a feature.
>>>>>  It is an architecture.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>  -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>  From: SLIM
>>>>>> [<mailto:slim-bounces@ietf.org>mailto:slim-bounces@ietf.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf Of Gunnar Hellström
>>>>>>  Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2016 11:08 AM
>>>>>>  To: <mailto:slim@ietf.org>slim@ietf.org
>>>>>>  Subject: [Slim] Syntax of combination of language tag and
>>>>>> Advisory vs
>>>>>>  Required indication in draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Randall,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Section 6.3 of draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-04 says:
>>>>>>  "The mechanism for indicating this preference is that, in an offer,
>>>>>> if the last
>>>>>>  character of any of the 'humintlang-recv' or 'humintlang- send'
>>>>>>  values is an asterisk, this indicates a request to not fail the
>>>>>> call (similar to SIP
>>>>>>  Accept-Language syntax)."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  An example from section 6.5 is
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    a=humintlang-send:ase*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  I have looked at the syntax description of SIP Accept-Language in
>>>>>> RFC
>>>>>>  3261 section 25.1 , and got to the conclusion that the asterisk is
>>>>>> used in place
>>>>>>  of a language tag, and not combined with the language tag as you
>>>>>> have
>>>>>>  specified it for the slim real-time draft.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  So, following that syntax, my interpretation is that we would need
>>>>>> a syntax
>>>>>>  according to this example
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    a=humintlang-send:*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  or, taking inspiration from the Accept-Language syntax, we could
>>>>>> change the
>>>>>>  syntax of our attributes and allow enumeration of the language tags
>>>>>> comma
>>>>>>  separated and include the asterisk among them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    a=humintlang-send:ase, *
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Of course we could define our own syntax for this parameter, but
>>>>>> then we
>>>>>>  should not say that it is similar to the use in Accept-Language,
>>>>>> and we should
>>>>>>  double check with the rfc 5646 experts to verify that we can append
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>  asterisk on the tag.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Please check this and explain your interpretation, or propose
>>>>>> modifications.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  /Gunnar
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  --
>>>>>>  -----------------------------------------
>>>>>>  Gunnar Hellström
>>>>>>  Omnitor
>>>>>>  <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>>>>>  +46 708 204 288
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>>>  SLIM mailing list
>>>>>>  <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>SLIM@ietf.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  --
>>>>  -----------------------------------------
>>>>  Gunnar Hellström
>>>>  Omnitor
>>>>  <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>>>  +46 708 204 288
>>>>
>>>>  _______________________________________________
>>>>  SLIM mailing list
>>>>  SLIM@ietf.org
>>>>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>>>
>>>
>
> --
> -----------------------------------------
> Gunnar Hellström
> Omnitor
> gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
> +46 708 204 288
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> SLIM mailing list
> SLIM@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>


From nobody Fri Jul 22 09:16:51 2016
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Subject: Re: [Slim] Syntax of combination of language tag and Advisory vs Required indication in draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
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Gunnar Hellstr=C3=B6m wrote:=0A=0A> How about using a syntax exactly as the=
 Accept-Language for each=0A> medium and direction.=0A> That will then be a=
 comma separated list, with the asterisk as one=0A> element if so wanted.=
=0A>=0A> humintlang-send  =3D  "a=3Dhumintlang-send" HCOLON=0A>            =
          [ language *(COMMA language) ]=0A> language         =3D  language=
-range *(SEMI accept-param)=0A> language-range   =3D  ( ( 1*8ALPHA *( "-" 1=
*8ALPHA ) ) / "*" )=0A> accept-param   =3D  ("q" EQUAL qvalue) / generic-pa=
ram=0A> qvalue         =3D  ( "0" [ "." 0*3DIGIT ] )=0A>                   =
/ ( "1" [ "." 0*3("0") ] )=0A> generic-param  =3D  token [ EQUAL gen-value =
]=0A> gen-value      =3D  token / host / quoted-string=0A>=0A> And similarl=
y for humintlang-recv=0A=0AWasn't there a proposal on this list in March to=
 include the ";q=3Dvalue"=0Asyntax to indicate absolute preference, and was=
n't it decided not to do=0Athat? Is this an attempt to reintroduce that pro=
posal?=0A=0A--=0ADoug Ewell | Thornton, CO, US | ewellic.org=0A


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To: Gunnar =?iso-8859-1?Q?Hellstr=F6m?=  <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>, "slim@ietf.org" <slim@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Slim] Syntax of combination of language tag and Advisory vs Required indication in draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
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At 1:26 PM +0200 7/22/16, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m wrote:

>  Den 2016-07-22 kl. 10:31, skrev Martin J. D=FCrst:
>
>>  On 2016/07/22 16:34, Randall Gellens wrote:
>>
>>>  The feature to add a means to indicate a preference to not fail the
>>>  call, and the asterisk notation to do so, was suggested during the
>>>  February 2013 in-person discussion on the real-time draft at IETF 86 in
>>>  Orlando:
>>>
>>>>   Advisory vs Required:
>>>>   - Does call fail if no common language?
>>>>   - Define token for use in offer to indicate caller's preference to
>>>>  fail call or not if no common language.
>>>>   - One choice is to say that if the last character of the send-lang or
>>>>  recv-lan value an asterisk, this indicates a request to not fail the
>>>>  call (similar to SIP Accept-Language syntax).  Either way, the called
>>>>  party may ignore this, e.g., for the emergency services use case, a
>>>>  PSAP will likely not fail the call.
>>>>
>>>
>>>  We can easily delete the "(similar to SIP Accept-Language syntax)" text
>>>  if that is causing heartburn.  I suggest sending a request to do so as =
a
>>>  WGLC comment.
>>>
>>
>>  Hello Randy,
>>
>>  Thanks for giving the history of this particular item.
>>
>>  However, I strongly suggest that this be=20
>> changed so that it matches better what other=20
>> IETF protocols and related specifications do.
>>
>>  If somebody sees something like
>>  a=3Dhumintlang-send:en*
>>  there's a big chance they interpret it as "any=20
>> kind of English", rather than as "English, or=20
>> anything else if that's not available",=20
>> although as far as I understand, according to=20
>> the current spec, it would be the later. Such=20
>> misunderstandings might happen to anybody who=20
>> knows HTTP or SMTP or SIP or BCP 47, which is=20
>> a wide range of people.

I do not have tremendous sympathy for people who=20
implement without reading the spec.  I also am=20
skeptical that modifying the syntax to account=20
for misunderstandings by those who don't read the=20
spec will he successful, since we cannot=20
anticipate all misunderstandings by those who=20
don't read the spec.  Especially because the spec=20
is not complicated.

>>
>>  The current interpretation also makes one think what
>>  a=3Dhumintlang-send:en*
>>  a=3Dhumintlang-send:es
>>  means. It probably means "English, or anything=20
>> else if it's not available, or Spanish, but=20
>> don't care to provide anything else if Spanish=20
>> isn't available." This is very subtly, and=20
>> probably needlessly, different from "English,=20
>> or Spanish, or anything else if these are not=20
>> available" (actually, I have to admit I'm not=20
>> sure it's different or not, but that alone is=20
>> a bad sign for this design).
>>
>  Good point.
>  How about using a syntax exactly as the=20
> Accept-Language for each medium and direction.
>  That will then be a comma separated list, with=20
> the asterisk as one element if so wanted.
>
>  humintlang-send  =3D  "a=3Dhumintlang-send" HCOLON
>                       [ language *(COMMA language) ]
>  language         =3D  language-range *(SEMI accept-param)
>  language-range   =3D  ( ( 1*8ALPHA *( "-" 1*8ALPHA ) ) / "*" )
>  accept-param   =3D  ("q" EQUAL qvalue) / generic-param
>  qvalue         =3D  ( "0" [ "." 0*3DIGIT ] )
>                    / ( "1" [ "." 0*3("0") ] )
>  generic-param  =3D  token [ EQUAL gen-value ]
>  gen-value      =3D  token / host / quoted-string
>
>  And similarly for humintlang-recv

This is way more complicated than we need.  Let's=20
see if the WG has consensus to make this change.

--Randy


>
>
>  It is likely more efficient to stick to an=20
> already defined format than invent a new.
>
>  /Gunnar
>
>
>
>>
>>  Regards,   Martin.
>>
>>>  --Randy
>>>
>>>  At 9:04 AM +0200 7/22/16, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m wrote:
>>>
>>>>   What I meant with this topic was to check if our syntax for use of
>>>>  the asterisk is safe and non-ambiguous.
>>>>
>>>>   And then I discovered that the syntax is not similar to the use in
>>>>  Accept-language as the text in 6.3 says. Accept-language has the
>>>>  asterisk comma-separated from the language tags ( "en, *" ).  I find
>>>>  no previous use of an asterisk tacked on directly to the language tag
>>>>  as our examples show ( "en*" ).
>>>>
>>>>   But since the language tag is alphanumeric, and RFC 4566 allows
>>>>  attribute values to be any byte string, the syntax seems allowable. I
>>>>  would like other's views on if it is advisable.
>>>>
>>>>   The similarity with the Accept-language is not the syntax, but the
>>>>  intention of use. The asterisk shows that language-matching does not
>>>>  need to be successfully completed for the call to be accepted. The
>>>>  reasoning says that that is usually the case anyway.
>>>>
>>>>   The syntax is not really logical. The asterisk does not belong to any
>>>>  specific language attribute. It would be more logical to have it as an
>>>>  attribute value of its own in a separate humintlang attribute. But
>>>>  that is less compact.
>>>>
>>>>   Another syntax question is if whitespace is allowed before the
>>>>  asterisk. SIP says that whitespace is usually allowed around the
>>>>  asterisk, but this is an sdp attribute and in RFC 4566 no such habit
>>>>  is documented.
>>>>
>>>>   The result is anyway that we need decisions on the questions above
>>>>  and a matching formal syntax description.
>>>>
>>>>   I assume that a syntax description for the current syntax would be
>>>>  this, that we should put in the beginning of 6.5 and call that Syntax
>>>>  and examples:
>>>>
>>>>   ------------------------------------Proposed addition to the
>>>>  beginning of 6.5---------------------
>>>>
>>>>   6.5 Syntax and examples
>>>>
>>>>   The attributes may occur a number of times and follow this syntax:
>>>>
>>>>   a=3Dhumintlang-send:<language-tag>[<relevance>]
>>>>
>>>>   a=3Dhumintlang-recv:<language-tag>[<relevance>]
>>>>
>>>>   <language-tag> is a language tag according to RFC 4566.
>>>>
>>>>   <relevance> is an optional modifier that adds information on the
>>>>  relevance of the attribute or a group of attributes. It consists of
>>>>  characters not allowed in language tags. One value for <relevance> is
>>>>  specified here. It is an asterisk "*" that implies that the call
>>>>  should be accepted even if there is no complete language match between
>>>>  the offeror and that answering party. Other values of the relevance
>>>>  parameter may be defined in other specifications. The order of the
>>>>  values within the relevance parameter is not relevant. Whitespace is
>>>>  not allowed before and within the relevance parameter. Unrecognized
>>>>  values in the relevance parameter shall be ignored.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>=20
>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   In 6.3, the paranthesis
>>>>
>>>>   "(similar to SIP Accept-Language syntax)"
>>>>
>>>>   should be changed to:
>>>>
>>>>   "(similar to the purpose of the use of the asterisk in the SIP
>>>>  Accept-Language header )"
>>>>
>>>>=20
>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   /Gunnar
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   Den 2016-07-21 kl. 20:13, skrev Phillips, Addison:
>>>>
>>>>>>   Of course we could define our own syntax for this parameter, but
>>>>>>  then we
>>>>>>   should not say that it is similar to the use in Accept-Language,
>>>>>>  and we should
>>>>>>   double check with the rfc 5646 experts to verify that we can append
>>>>>>  the
>>>>>>   asterisk on the tag.
>>>>>>
>>>>>   BCP47 (RFC 4647 in this case) defines some different language
>>>>>  matching schemes besides that of rfc3261. Of interest here is the
>>>>>  concept of "extended language range" which allows for asterisks in a
>>>>>  range.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>=20
>>>>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-2.2><https://tools.ietf.o=
rg/html/rfc4647#section-2.2><https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-2.2=
>https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-2.2
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>=20
>>>>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-3.3.2><https://tools.ietf=
=2Eorg/html/rfc4647#section-3.3.2><https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#secti=
on-3.3.2>https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-3.3.2
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   Addison
>>>>>
>>>>>   Addison Phillips
>>>>>   Principal SDE, I18N Architect (Amazon)
>>>>>   Chair (W3C I18N WG)
>>>>>
>>>>>   Internationalization is not a feature.
>>>>>   It is an architecture.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>   -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>   From: SLIM
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> [<mailto:slim-bounces@ietf.org><mailto:slim-bounces@ietf.org><mailto:=
slim-bounces@ietf.org>mailto:slim-bounces@ietf.org]=20
>>>>>> On
>>>>>>  Behalf Of Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
>>>>>>   Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2016 11:08 AM
>>>>>>   To:=20
>>>>>> <mailto:slim@ietf.org><mailto:slim@ietf.org><mailto:slim@ietf.org>sli=
m@ietf.org
>>>>>>   Subject: [Slim] Syntax of combination of language tag and Advisory =
vs
>>>>>>   Required indication in draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Randall,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Section 6.3 of draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-04 says:
>>>>>>   "The mechanism for indicating this preference is that, in an offer,
>>>>>>  if the last
>>>>>>   character of any of the 'humintlang-recv' or 'humintlang- send'
>>>>>>   values is an asterisk, this indicates a request to not fail the
>>>>>>  call (similar to SIP
>>>>>>   Accept-Language syntax)."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   An example from section 6.5 is
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     a=3Dhumintlang-send:ase*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   I have looked at the syntax description of SIP Accept-Language in R=
=46C
>>>>>>   3261 section 25.1 , and got to the conclusion that the asterisk is
>>>>>>  used in place
>>>>>>   of a language tag, and not combined with the language tag as you ha=
ve
>>>>>>   specified it for the slim real-time draft.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   So, following that syntax, my interpretation is that we would need
>>>>>>  a syntax
>>>>>>   according to this example
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     a=3Dhumintlang-send:*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   or, taking inspiration from the Accept-Language syntax, we could
>>>>>>  change the
>>>>>>   syntax of our attributes and allow enumeration of the language tags
>>>>>>  comma
>>>>>>   separated and include the asterisk among them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     a=3Dhumintlang-send:ase, *
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Of course we could define our own syntax for this parameter, but
>>>>>>  then we
>>>>>>   should not say that it is similar to the use in Accept-Language,
>>>>>>  and we should
>>>>>>   double check with the rfc 5646 experts to verify that we can append
>>>>>>  the
>>>>>>   asterisk on the tag.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Please check this and explain your interpretation, or propose
>>>>>>  modifications.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   /Gunnar
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   --
>>>>>>   -----------------------------------------
>>>>>>   Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
>>>>>>   Omnitor
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se><mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.=
se><mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>>>>>   +46 708 204 288
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   _______________________________________________
>>>>>>   SLIM mailing list
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org><mailto:SLIM@ietf.org><mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>SLI=
M@ietf.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim><https://www.ietf.org/mai=
lman/listinfo/slim><https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>https://www.i=
etf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   --
>>>>   -----------------------------------------
>>>>   Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
>>>>   Omnitor
>>>>=20
>>>> <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se><mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se=
><mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>>>   +46 708 204 288
>>>>
>>>>   _______________________________________________
>>>>   SLIM mailing list
>>>>   <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>SLIM@ietf.org
>>>>=20
>>>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>https://www.ietf.org/mailma=
n/listinfo/slim
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>  --
>  -----------------------------------------
>  Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
>  Omnitor
>  <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>  +46 708 204 288
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  SLIM mailing list
>  SLIM@ietf.org
>  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim


-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
Nothing is so embarrassing as watching someone do something that you
said couldn't be done.                      --Sam Ewing


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From: Nik Tomkinson <rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 18:15:31 +0100
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Cc: "slim@ietf.org" <slim@ietf.org>, Natasha Rooney <nrooney@gsma.com>
Subject: Re: [Slim] Documents in WGLC
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Natasha/Bernard,

please can you make the draft version that is put forward to WGLC instead:

draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-03

as this is the latest version as of today (which has some very useful
additions).

Thanks,

Nik.

On 22 July 2016 at 12:02, Gunnar Hellstr=C3=B6m <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.s=
e>
wrote:

> Natasha,
>
> A large number of issues have been cleared up to
> draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-04
>
> Can you make that the base for the WGLC instead?
>
> Or, what is the procedure for getting version -04 recognized?
>
> /Gunnar
>
> Den 2016-07-22 kl. 12:39, skrev Natasha Rooney:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Thanks for the meeting this week. We are pleased to announce that both
> drafts below have entered into Working Group Last Call. We will aim to ex=
it
> WGLC on 12th August, which gives us three week from today.
>
> draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-01
> Multiple Language Content Type
>
> draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-01
> Negotiating Human Language in Real-Time Communications
>
> *Issues: *if you have issues please submit these to the IETF Issue
> Tracker at [1]. Please feel free to discuss items on the list also.
>
> Thanks everyone!
>
> Natasha
>
> [1] https://tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/trac/newticket
>
> Natasha Rooney | Technologist, Web and Internet, W3C & IETF | GSMA |
> nrooney@gsma.com | +44 (0) 7730 219 765 | @thisNatasha | Skype:
> nrooney@gsm.org
>
>
> This email and its attachments are intended for the above named only and
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> _______________________________________________
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> --
> -----------------------------------------
> Gunnar Hellstr=C3=B6m
> Omnitorgunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
> +46 708 204 288
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> SLIM mailing list
> SLIM@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>
>


--=20

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Multiple Language Content Type Internet Draft:

<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-multilangcontent/>
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/
<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-slim-multilangcontent/>

-----------------------------------------------------------------

--94eb2c0572f2f65f6a05383c945e
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Natasha/Bernard,<div><br></div><div>please can you make th=
e draft version that is put forward to WGLC instead:</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-03<br></div><div><br></div><div>as this=
 is the latest version as of today (which has some very useful additions).<=
/div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div><br></div><div>Nik.</div></div><=
div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 22 July 2016 at=
 12:02, Gunnar Hellstr=C3=B6m <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gunna=
r.hellstrom@omnitor.se" target=3D"_blank">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>&g=
t;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
    <p>Natasha,</p>
    <p>A large number of issues have been cleared up to
      draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-04</p>
    <p>Can you make that the base for the WGLC instead?</p>
    <p>Or, what is the procedure for getting version -04 recognized?</p>
    <p>/Gunnar<br>
    </p><div><div class=3D"h5">
    <br>
    <div>Den 2016-07-22 kl. 12:39, skrev Natasha
      Rooney:<br>
    </div>
    </div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"h5">
     =20
      Hi all,
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>Thanks for the meeting this week. We are pleased to
        announce that both drafts below have entered into Working Group
        Last Call. We will aim to exit WGLC on 12th August, which gives
        us three week from today.=C2=A0
        <div><br>
          draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-01=C2=A0<br>
          Multiple Language Content Type<br>
          <br>
          draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-01=C2=A0<br>
          Negotiating Human Language in Real-Time=C2=A0Communications</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div><b>Issues: </b>if you have issues please
          submit these to the IETF Issue Tracker at [1]. Please feel
          free to discuss items on the list also.=C2=A0</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Thanks everyone!</div>
        <div>
          <div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:s=
tart;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0p=
x;word-wrap:break-word">
            <div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align=
:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:=
0px;word-wrap:break-word">
              <div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin=
g:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
                <br>
                Natasha<br>
                <br>
                [1]=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/trac/new=
ticket" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/trac/newticket</a>=
<br>
                <br>
                Natasha Rooney | Technologist, Web=C2=A0and Internet, W3C
                &amp; IETF | GSMA |=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:nrooney@gsma.com=
" target=3D"_blank">nrooney@gsma.com</a>=C2=A0|
                <a href=3D"tel:%2B44%20%280%29%207730%C2%A0219%20765" value=
=3D"+447730219765" target=3D"_blank">+44 (0) 7730=C2=A0219 765</a> | @thisN=
atasha | Skype:=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:nrooney@gsm.org" target=3D"_blank">n=
rooney@gsm.org</a><br>
                <br>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
        <br>
      </div>
      <p style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:11px;color:#999999=
"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:#999999" lang=3D"EN-US"=
>This email and its
          attachments are intended for the above named only and may be
          confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take
          no action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to
          anyone; please reply to this email or call <a href=3D"tel:%2B44%2=
0207%20356%200600" value=3D"+442073560600" target=3D"_blank">+44 207 356 06=
00</a>
          and highlight the error. </span></p>
      <br>
      <fieldset></fieldset>
      <br>
      </div></div><span class=3D""><pre>___________________________________=
____________
SLIM mailing list
<a href=3D"mailto:SLIM@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">SLIM@ietf.org</a>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a>
</pre>
    </span></blockquote><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
    <br>
    <pre cols=3D"72">--=20
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellstr=C3=B6m
Omnitor
<a href=3D"mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se" target=3D"_blank">gunnar.hel=
lstrom@omnitor.se</a>
+46 708 204 288</pre>
  </font></span></div>

<br>_______________________________________________<br>
SLIM mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:SLIM@ietf.org">SLIM@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><pre><spa=
n style=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace">-----------------------------=
------------------------------------<br>Multiple Language Content Type Inte=
rnet Draft:</span></pre><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-to=
mkinson-multilangcontent/" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-family:cou=
rier new,monospace"></span></a><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/d=
raft-tomkinson-slim-multilangcontent/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracke=
r.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/</a><br><pre><span style=3D=
"font-family:courier new,monospace">---------------------------------------=
--------------------------</span><br></pre></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div></div>
</div>

--94eb2c0572f2f65f6a05383c945e--


From nobody Fri Jul 22 13:08:11 2016
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Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 13:07:59 -0700
To: Martin J. =?iso-8859-1?Q?D=FCrst?=  <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>, "Phillips,  Addison" <addison@lab126.com>, "slim@ietf.org" <slim@ietf.org>
From: Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>
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Subject: Re: [Slim] Syntax of combination of language tag and Advisory vs Required indication in draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
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At 5:31 PM +0900 7/22/16, Martin J. D=FCrst wrote:

>  On 2016/07/22 16:34, Randall Gellens wrote:
>>  The feature to add a means to indicate a preference to not fail the
>>  call, and the asterisk notation to do so, was suggested during the
>>  February 2013 in-person discussion on the real-time draft at IETF 86 in
>>  Orlando:
>>
>>>   Advisory vs Required:
>>>   - Does call fail if no common language?
>>>   - Define token for use in offer to indicate caller's preference to
>>>  fail call or not if no common language.
>>>   - One choice is to say that if the last character of the send-lang or
>>>  recv-lan value an asterisk, this indicates a request to not fail the
>>>  call (similar to SIP Accept-Language syntax).  Either way, the called
>>>  party may ignore this, e.g., for the emergency services use case, a
>>>  PSAP will likely not fail the call.
>>
>>  We can easily delete the "(similar to SIP Accept-Language syntax)" text
>>  if that is causing heartburn.  I suggest sending a request to do so as a
>>  WGLC comment.
>
>  Hello Randy,
>
>  Thanks for giving the history of this particular item.
>
>  However, I strongly suggest that this be=20
> changed so that it matches better what other=20
> IETF protocols and related specifications do.
>
>  If somebody sees something like
>  a=3Dhumintlang-send:en*
>  there's a big chance they interpret it as "any=20
> kind of English", rather than as "English, or=20
> anything else if that's not available",=20
> although as far as I understand, according to=20
> the current spec, it would be the later. Such=20
> misunderstandings might happen to anybody who=20
> knows HTTP or SMTP or SIP or BCP 47, which is a=20
> wide range of people.
>
>  The current interpretation also makes one think what
>  a=3Dhumintlang-send:en*
>  a=3Dhumintlang-send:es
>  means. It probably means "English, or anything=20
> else if it's not available, or Spanish, but=20
> don't care to provide anything else if Spanish=20
> isn't available." This is very subtly, and=20
> probably needlessly, different from "English,=20
> or Spanish, or anything else if these are not=20
> available" (actually, I have to admit I'm not=20
> sure it's different or not, but that alone is a=20
> bad sign for this design).
>
>  Regards,   Martin.


Hi Martin,


Personally, I'm not convinced that it's necessary=20
to modify the syntax so that people who haven't=20
read the spec will not be confused in one=20
particular way.  This particular syntax was not=20
my idea and I'm not stuck on it, but it was=20
suggested by people with very long experience in=20
HTTP and SMTP and SIP, so I have to think it=20
can't be all that confusing.  I happen to have=20
some experience in these areas as well and never=20
thought it was confusing in the context of this=20
draft.

I would strongly object to replacing it with a=20
complex scheme as Gunnar proposed.  I might not=20
object if the group wanted to replace it with=20
something just as simple as what we have now,=20
e.g., using a character other than an asterisk=20
("a=3Dhumintlang-send:en?"), or using an asterisk=20
in lieu of a language tag=20
("a=3Dhumintlang-send:*"), but would have to ask if=20
such a change is worth it, or if someone else=20
wouldn't come up with an equal reason to not do=20
it that way.

--Randy

>>  At 9:04 AM +0200 7/22/16, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m wrote:
>>
>>>   What I meant with this topic was to check if our syntax for use of
>>>  the asterisk is safe and non-ambiguous.
>>>
>>>   And then I discovered that the syntax is not similar to the use in
>>>  Accept-language as the text in 6.3 says. Accept-language has the
>>>  asterisk comma-separated from the language tags ( "en, *" ).  I find
>>>  no previous use of an asterisk tacked on directly to the language tag
>>>  as our examples show ( "en*" ).
>>>
>>>   But since the language tag is alphanumeric, and RFC 4566 allows
>>>  attribute values to be any byte string, the syntax seems allowable. I
>>>  would like other's views on if it is advisable.
>>>
>>>   The similarity with the Accept-language is not the syntax, but the
>>>  intention of use. The asterisk shows that language-matching does not
>>>  need to be successfully completed for the call to be accepted. The
>>>  reasoning says that that is usually the case anyway.
>>>
>>>   The syntax is not really logical. The asterisk does not belong to any
>>>  specific language attribute. It would be more logical to have it as an
>>>  attribute value of its own in a separate humintlang attribute. But
>>>  that is less compact.
>>>
>>>   Another syntax question is if whitespace is allowed before the
>>>  asterisk. SIP says that whitespace is usually allowed around the
>>>  asterisk, but this is an sdp attribute and in RFC 4566 no such habit
>>>  is documented.
>>>
>>>   The result is anyway that we need decisions on the questions above
>>>  and a matching formal syntax description.
>>>
>>>   I assume that a syntax description for the current syntax would be
>>>  this, that we should put in the beginning of 6.5 and call that Syntax
>>>  and examples:
>>>
>>>   ------------------------------------Proposed addition to the
>>>  beginning of 6.5---------------------
>>>
>>>   6.5 Syntax and examples
>>>
>>>   The attributes may occur a number of times and follow this syntax:
>>>
>>>   a=3Dhumintlang-send:<language-tag>[<relevance>]
>>>
>>>   a=3Dhumintlang-recv:<language-tag>[<relevance>]
>>>
>>>   <language-tag> is a language tag according to RFC 4566.
>>>
>>>   <relevance> is an optional modifier that adds information on the
>>>  relevance of the attribute or a group of attributes. It consists of
>>>  characters not allowed in language tags. One value for <relevance> is
>>>  specified here. It is an asterisk "*" that implies that the call
>>>  should be accepted even if there is no complete language match between
>>>  the offeror and that answering party. Other values of the relevance
>>>  parameter may be defined in other specifications. The order of the
>>>  values within the relevance parameter is not relevant. Whitespace is
>>>  not allowed before and within the relevance parameter. Unrecognized
>>>  values in the relevance parameter shall be ignored.
>>>
>>>
>>>=20
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>   In 6.3, the paranthesis
>>>
>>>   "(similar to SIP Accept-Language syntax)"
>>>
>>>   should be changed to:
>>>
>>>   "(similar to the purpose of the use of the asterisk in the SIP
>>>  Accept-Language header )"
>>>
>>>=20
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   /Gunnar
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Den 2016-07-21 kl. 20:13, skrev Phillips, Addison:
>>>
>>>>>   Of course we could define our own syntax for this parameter, but
>>>>>  then we
>>>>>   should not say that it is similar to the use in Accept-Language,
>>>>>  and we should
>>>>>   double check with the rfc 5646 experts to verify that we can append
>>>>>  the
>>>>>   asterisk on the tag.
>>>>>
>>>>   BCP47 (RFC 4647 in this case) defines some different language
>>>>  matching schemes besides that of rfc3261. Of interest here is the
>>>>  concept of "extended language range" which allows for asterisks in a
>>>>  range.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>=20
>>>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-2.2>https://tools.ietf.org=
/html/rfc4647#section-2.2
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>=20
>>>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-3.3.2>https://tools.ietf.o=
rg/html/rfc4647#section-3.3.2
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   Addison
>>>>
>>>>   Addison Phillips
>>>>   Principal SDE, I18N Architect (Amazon)
>>>>   Chair (W3C I18N WG)
>>>>
>>>>   Internationalization is not a feature.
>>>>   It is an architecture.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>   -----Original Message-----
>>>>>   From: SLIM
>>>>>  [<mailto:slim-bounces@ietf.org>mailto:slim-bounces@ietf.org] On
>>>>>  Behalf Of Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
>>>>>   Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2016 11:08 AM
>>>>>   To: <mailto:slim@ietf.org>slim@ietf.org
>>>>>   Subject: [Slim] Syntax of combination of language tag and Advisory v=
s
>>>>>   Required indication in draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
>>>>>
>>>>>   Randall,
>>>>>
>>>>>   Section 6.3 of draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-04 says:
>>>>>   "The mechanism for indicating this preference is that, in an offer,
>>>>>  if the last
>>>>>   character of any of the 'humintlang-recv' or 'humintlang- send'
>>>>>   values is an asterisk, this indicates a request to not fail the
>>>>>  call (similar to SIP
>>>>>   Accept-Language syntax)."
>>>>>
>>>>>   An example from section 6.5 is
>>>>>
>>>>>     a=3Dhumintlang-send:ase*
>>>>>
>>>>>   I have looked at the syntax description of SIP Accept-Language in RF=
C
>>>>>   3261 section 25.1 , and got to the conclusion that the asterisk is
>>>>>  used in place
>>>>>   of a language tag, and not combined with the language tag as you hav=
e
>>>>>   specified it for the slim real-time draft.
>>>>>
>>>>>   So, following that syntax, my interpretation is that we would need
>>>>>  a syntax
>>>>>   according to this example
>>>>>
>>>>>     a=3Dhumintlang-send:*
>>>>>
>>>>>   or, taking inspiration from the Accept-Language syntax, we could
>>>>>  change the
>>>>>   syntax of our attributes and allow enumeration of the language tags
>>>>>  comma
>>>>>   separated and include the asterisk among them.
>>>>>
>>>>>     a=3Dhumintlang-send:ase, *
>>>>>
>>>>>   Of course we could define our own syntax for this parameter, but
>>>>>  then we
>>>>>   should not say that it is similar to the use in Accept-Language,
>>>>>  and we should
>>>>>   double check with the rfc 5646 experts to verify that we can append
>>>>>  the
>>>>>   asterisk on the tag.
>>>>>
>>>>>   Please check this and explain your interpretation, or propose
>>>>>  modifications.
>>>>>
>>>>>   /Gunnar
>>>>>
>>>>>   --
>>>>>   -----------------------------------------
>>>>>   Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
>>>>>   Omnitor
>>>>>   <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>>>>   +46 708 204 288
>>>>>
>>>>>   _______________________________________________
>>>>>   SLIM mailing list
>>>>>   <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>SLIM@ietf.org
>>>>>
>>>>>=20
>>>>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>https://www.ietf.org/mailm=
an/listinfo/slim
>>>>>
>>>
>>>   --
>>>   -----------------------------------------
>>>   Gunnar Hellstr=F6m
>>>   Omnitor
>>>   <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>>   +46 708 204 288
>>>
>>>   _______________________________________________
>>>   SLIM mailing list
>>>   SLIM@ietf.org
>>>   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim


-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
razbliuto (ros-blee-OO-toe; Russian; noun): the feeling a person
retains for someone he or she once loved.


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Subject: Re: [Slim] Discussion of "lang" attribute in MMUSIC WG
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Hi Bernard,

At 1:35 PM +0200 7/22/16, Bernard Aboba wrote:

>  We had a short discussion of the history of the "lang" attribute 
> within the MMUSIC WG meeting today (July 22).

Thanks very much for following up.

>  Colin Perkins pointed out that the text for the "lang" attribute 
> originated in RFC 2327 which was published in April 1998, and did 
> not change much if at all in RFC 4566 (published in July 2006). 
> Therefore it would appear that the RFC 4566bis revision to that 
> text is the first time that this language has been modified in 19 
> years.  This may be indicative of minimal implementer interest.
>  When asked whether anyone at the MMUSIC WG had implemented the 
> "lang" attribute, there was no response.

When I started the human language in real time communications draft, 
I searched all RFCs and I-Ds for any reference to 'lang' and could 
only find one, in an expired draft.  So, it does appear to not be 
used.  Which is good because there's less risk of confusion or 
conflict with our new attributes.

>  Since the "lang" attribute text in question predates SIP (RFC 
> 2543), as well as Offer/Answer (RFC 3264), it was likely to have 
> been originally intended for use in multicast conferencing (which 
> was mainstream at the time) rather than in SIP-based Offer/Answer, 
> which came later.

That makes a lot of sense, and fits with how I interpreted the 
wording defining the attribute (that multiple values meant multiple 
languages were used in the media).

--Randy

-- 
Randall Gellens
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At 10:39 AM +0000 7/22/16, Natasha Rooney wrote:

>  Hi all,
>
>  Thanks for the meeting this week. We are pleased to announce that 
> both drafts below have entered into Working Group Last Call. We 
> will aim to exit WGLC on 12th August, which gives us three week 
> from today.
>
>  draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-01
>  Multiple Language Content Type
>
>  draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-01 
>  Negotiating Human Language in Real-Time Communications
>
>  Issues: if you have issues please submit these to the IETF Issue 
> Tracker at [1]. Please feel free to discuss items on the list also.

Can you please update the real time draft to -04?  Thank you.

-- 
Randall Gellens
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unlearn falsehoods.                             --Lazarus Long


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Subject: Re: [Slim] Syntax of combination of language tag and Advisory vs Required indication in draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
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Den 2016-07-22 kl. 22:07, skrev Randall Gellens:

> At 5:31 PM +0900 7/22/16, Martin J. Dürst wrote:
>
>>  On 2016/07/22 16:34, Randall Gellens wrote:
>>>  The feature to add a means to indicate a preference to not fail the
>>>  call, and the asterisk notation to do so, was suggested during the
>>>  February 2013 in-person discussion on the real-time draft at IETF 
>>> 86 in
>>>  Orlando:
>>>
>>>>   Advisory vs Required:
>>>>   - Does call fail if no common language?
>>>>   - Define token for use in offer to indicate caller's preference to
>>>>  fail call or not if no common language.
>>>>   - One choice is to say that if the last character of the 
>>>> send-lang or
>>>>  recv-lan value an asterisk, this indicates a request to not fail the
>>>>  call (similar to SIP Accept-Language syntax).
Since the comparison with Accept-Language syntax was made already then, 
I guess that the intention was
to use syntax according to this example:
a=humintlang-send: en, *
and
a=humintlang-send: en, fr, es, *

To add the asterisk right on the language-tag could conflict with a 
future revision of the language tag syntax. The asterisk is not defined 
as a delimiter for the language tag.

>>>> Either way, the called
>>>>  party may ignore this, e.g., for the emergency services use case, a
>>>>  PSAP will likely not fail the call.
>>>
>>>  We can easily delete the "(similar to SIP Accept-Language syntax)" 
>>> text
>>>  if that is causing heartburn.  I suggest sending a request to do so 
>>> as a
>>>  WGLC comment.
>>
>>  Hello Randy,
>>
>>  Thanks for giving the history of this particular item.
>>
>>  However, I strongly suggest that this be changed so that it matches 
>> better what other IETF protocols and related specifications do.
>>
>>  If somebody sees something like
>>  a=humintlang-send:en*
>>  there's a big chance they interpret it as "any kind of English", 
>> rather than as "English, or anything else if that's not available", 
>> although as far as I understand, according to the current spec, it 
>> would be the later. Such misunderstandings might happen to anybody 
>> who knows HTTP or SMTP or SIP or BCP 47, which is a wide range of 
>> people.
>>
>>  The current interpretation also makes one think what
>>  a=humintlang-send:en*
>>  a=humintlang-send:es
>>  means. It probably means "English, or anything else if it's not 
>> available, or Spanish, but don't care to provide anything else if 
>> Spanish isn't available." This is very subtly, and probably 
>> needlessly, different from "English, or Spanish, or anything else if 
>> these are not available" (actually, I have to admit I'm not sure it's 
>> different or not, but that alone is a bad sign for this design).
>>
>>  Regards,   Martin.
>
>
> Hi Martin,
>
>
> Personally, I'm not convinced that it's necessary to modify the syntax 
> so that people who haven't read the spec will not be confused in one 
> particular way.  This particular syntax was not my idea and I'm not 
> stuck on it, but it was suggested by people with very long experience 
> in HTTP and SMTP and SIP, so I have to think it can't be all that 
> confusing.  I happen to have some experience in these areas as well 
> and never thought it was confusing in the context of this draft.
>
> I would strongly object to replacing it with a complex scheme as 
> Gunnar proposed.  I might not object if the group wanted to replace it 
> with something just as simple as what we have now, e.g., using a 
> character other than an asterisk ("a=humintlang-send:en?"), or using 
> an asterisk in lieu of a language tag ("a=humintlang-send:*"), but 
> would have to ask if such a change is worth it, or if someone else 
> wouldn't come up with an equal reason to not do it that way.
(GH) Yes, it would make much more sense with a=humintlang-send:*
Or the Accept-Language syntax with a comma separated list of language 
tags, with the asterisk comma separated.

But there are a couple of other things to discuss before we settle it.

*1. The Advisory/Required notation and default.**
*As the text describes the "Advisory" feature, it is a session feature, 
not bound to any specific language or media or direction. So, hooking it 
on to a specific language, media and direction is not logical. And there 
is strong motivation in the text about why the lack of the asterisk 
should not be taken for a "Required" indication. So the "Advisory" state 
is kind of default even when that is what the only value of the feature 
parameter indicates. The logic is quite fuzzy and would need an 
improvement. Most logical would be a session level attribute with "fail 
if no language match is found" as value and "do not fail" as default.
*
**2. Inconvenient notation for majority of cases.*
I think most developers will find the need to specify the majority of 
cases in two very equal attributes (one for send and one for receive) a 
bit space-consuming and awkward. It would feel more natural and save 
characters if we had a common language attribute with a parameter value 
for the direction with send and recv and both as possible values, and 
both as default.
( I have already got this reaction from developers)

*3. Character-expensive notation for call-centers?*
How do we foresee the use of humintlang by multi-language call centers 
when calling out? Will they include a long list of languages, or will 
they call without sdp, and expect the answering part to start providing 
language preferences? If they will provide a long list, it will take 
about 40 characters overhead in SDP per language compared to the 
comma-separated syntax of Accept-Language (if also issue 2 above is 
taken into consideration ).
Should we bother about character-economy in sdp and change to the 
syntax-style of Accept-Language?
*
**4. Accept-Language style notation can be simplified*
When I copied the whole Accept-Language syntax from RFC 3261, there were 
some reactions that it was too complex. It is of course possible to 
delete elements in that syntax and still maintain the structure.
This would be a valid subset ( if we do not do anything to issues 1 and 
2 above):

humintlang-send  =  "a=humintlang-send" HCOLON
                      [ language *(COMMA language) ]
language         =  language-range
language-range   =  ( ( 1*8ALPHA ) / "*" )

And similarly for humintlang-recv

*5. Place for relative preference notation**
*Even if the notation for a relative preference across the session is 
not included in this draft, it would be good to have a prepared place 
for it in the notation. It is best linked to a language and a media and 
a direction. So it would suit with a notation like the current specified 
syntax of the use of the asterisk, but with another character. Or as a 
parameter to a language.
In my view, the relative preference is far more important than the 
Advisory/Required feature, that is recommended to have so weak influence 
on call completion decisions.

---------------------

I hope we can have a discussion in the list about these issues before 
conclusions are posted as WGLC issues.

/Gunnar
>
> --Randy
>
>>>  At 9:04 AM +0200 7/22/16, Gunnar Hellström wrote:
>>>
>>>>   What I meant with this topic was to check if our syntax for use of
>>>>  the asterisk is safe and non-ambiguous.
>>>>
>>>>   And then I discovered that the syntax is not similar to the use in
>>>>  Accept-language as the text in 6.3 says. Accept-language has the
>>>>  asterisk comma-separated from the language tags ( "en, *" ).  I find
>>>>  no previous use of an asterisk tacked on directly to the language tag
>>>>  as our examples show ( "en*" ).
>>>>
>>>>   But since the language tag is alphanumeric, and RFC 4566 allows
>>>>  attribute values to be any byte string, the syntax seems allowable. I
>>>>  would like other's views on if it is advisable.
>>>>
>>>>   The similarity with the Accept-language is not the syntax, but the
>>>>  intention of use. The asterisk shows that language-matching does not
>>>>  need to be successfully completed for the call to be accepted. The
>>>>  reasoning says that that is usually the case anyway.
>>>>
>>>>   The syntax is not really logical. The asterisk does not belong to 
>>>> any
>>>>  specific language attribute. It would be more logical to have it 
>>>> as an
>>>>  attribute value of its own in a separate humintlang attribute. But
>>>>  that is less compact.
>>>>
>>>>   Another syntax question is if whitespace is allowed before the
>>>>  asterisk. SIP says that whitespace is usually allowed around the
>>>>  asterisk, but this is an sdp attribute and in RFC 4566 no such habit
>>>>  is documented.
>>>>
>>>>   The result is anyway that we need decisions on the questions above
>>>>  and a matching formal syntax description.
>>>>
>>>>   I assume that a syntax description for the current syntax would be
>>>>  this, that we should put in the beginning of 6.5 and call that Syntax
>>>>  and examples:
>>>>
>>>>   ------------------------------------Proposed addition to the
>>>>  beginning of 6.5---------------------
>>>>
>>>>   6.5 Syntax and examples
>>>>
>>>>   The attributes may occur a number of times and follow this syntax:
>>>>
>>>>   a=humintlang-send:<language-tag>[<relevance>]
>>>>
>>>>   a=humintlang-recv:<language-tag>[<relevance>]
>>>>
>>>>   <language-tag> is a language tag according to RFC 4566.
>>>>
>>>>   <relevance> is an optional modifier that adds information on the
>>>>  relevance of the attribute or a group of attributes. It consists of
>>>>  characters not allowed in language tags. One value for <relevance> is
>>>>  specified here. It is an asterisk "*" that implies that the call
>>>>  should be accepted even if there is no complete language match 
>>>> between
>>>>  the offeror and that answering party. Other values of the relevance
>>>>  parameter may be defined in other specifications. The order of the
>>>>  values within the relevance parameter is not relevant. Whitespace is
>>>>  not allowed before and within the relevance parameter. Unrecognized
>>>>  values in the relevance parameter shall be ignored.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   In 6.3, the paranthesis
>>>>
>>>>   "(similar to SIP Accept-Language syntax)"
>>>>
>>>>   should be changed to:
>>>>
>>>>   "(similar to the purpose of the use of the asterisk in the SIP
>>>>  Accept-Language header )"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   /Gunnar
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   Den 2016-07-21 kl. 20:13, skrev Phillips, Addison:
>>>>
>>>>>>   Of course we could define our own syntax for this parameter, but
>>>>>>  then we
>>>>>>   should not say that it is similar to the use in Accept-Language,
>>>>>>  and we should
>>>>>>   double check with the rfc 5646 experts to verify that we can 
>>>>>> append
>>>>>>  the
>>>>>>   asterisk on the tag.
>>>>>>
>>>>>   BCP47 (RFC 4647 in this case) defines some different language
>>>>>  matching schemes besides that of rfc3261. Of interest here is the
>>>>>  concept of "extended language range" which allows for asterisks in a
>>>>>  range.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-2.2>https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-2.2 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-3.3.2>https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-3.3.2 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   Addison
>>>>>
>>>>>   Addison Phillips
>>>>>   Principal SDE, I18N Architect (Amazon)
>>>>>   Chair (W3C I18N WG)
>>>>>
>>>>>   Internationalization is not a feature.
>>>>>   It is an architecture.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>   -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>   From: SLIM
>>>>>>  [<mailto:slim-bounces@ietf.org>mailto:slim-bounces@ietf.org] On
>>>>>>  Behalf Of Gunnar Hellström
>>>>>>   Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2016 11:08 AM
>>>>>>   To: <mailto:slim@ietf.org>slim@ietf.org
>>>>>>   Subject: [Slim] Syntax of combination of language tag and 
>>>>>> Advisory vs
>>>>>>   Required indication in draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Randall,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Section 6.3 of draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-04 says:
>>>>>>   "The mechanism for indicating this preference is that, in an 
>>>>>> offer,
>>>>>>  if the last
>>>>>>   character of any of the 'humintlang-recv' or 'humintlang- send'
>>>>>>   values is an asterisk, this indicates a request to not fail the
>>>>>>  call (similar to SIP
>>>>>>   Accept-Language syntax)."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   An example from section 6.5 is
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     a=humintlang-send:ase*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   I have looked at the syntax description of SIP Accept-Language 
>>>>>> in RFC
>>>>>>   3261 section 25.1 , and got to the conclusion that the asterisk is
>>>>>>  used in place
>>>>>>   of a language tag, and not combined with the language tag as 
>>>>>> you have
>>>>>>   specified it for the slim real-time draft.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   So, following that syntax, my interpretation is that we would need
>>>>>>  a syntax
>>>>>>   according to this example
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     a=humintlang-send:*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   or, taking inspiration from the Accept-Language syntax, we could
>>>>>>  change the
>>>>>>   syntax of our attributes and allow enumeration of the language 
>>>>>> tags
>>>>>>  comma
>>>>>>   separated and include the asterisk among them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     a=humintlang-send:ase, *
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Of course we could define our own syntax for this parameter, but
>>>>>>  then we
>>>>>>   should not say that it is similar to the use in Accept-Language,
>>>>>>  and we should
>>>>>>   double check with the rfc 5646 experts to verify that we can 
>>>>>> append
>>>>>>  the
>>>>>>   asterisk on the tag.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Please check this and explain your interpretation, or propose
>>>>>>  modifications.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   /Gunnar
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   --
>>>>>>   -----------------------------------------
>>>>>>   Gunnar Hellström
>>>>>>   Omnitor
>>>>>> <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>>>>>   +46 708 204 288
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   _______________________________________________
>>>>>>   SLIM mailing list
>>>>>>   <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>SLIM@ietf.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim 
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   --
>>>>   -----------------------------------------
>>>>   Gunnar Hellström
>>>>   Omnitor
>>>> <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>>>>   +46 708 204 288
>>>>
>>>>   _______________________________________________
>>>>   SLIM mailing list
>>>>   SLIM@ietf.org
>>>>   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>
>

-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
+46 708 204 288


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    <p>Den 2016-07-22 kl. 22:07, skrev Randall Gellens:<br>
    </p>
    <blockquote cite="mid:p0624060ad3b82ae52516@[10.134.253.167]"
      type="cite">At 5:31 PM +0900 7/22/16, Martin J. Dürst wrote:
      <br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite"> On 2016/07/22 16:34, Randall Gellens
        wrote:
        <br>
        <blockquote type="cite"> The feature to add a means to indicate
          a preference to not fail the
          <br>
           call, and the asterisk notation to do so, was suggested
          during the
          <br>
           February 2013 in-person discussion on the real-time draft at
          IETF 86 in
          <br>
           Orlando:
          <br>
          <br>
          <blockquote type="cite">  Advisory vs Required:
            <br>
              - Does call fail if no common language?
            <br>
              - Define token for use in offer to indicate caller's
            preference to
            <br>
             fail call or not if no common language.
            <br>
              - One choice is to say that if the last character of the
            send-lang or
            <br>
             recv-lan value an asterisk, this indicates a request to not
            fail the
            <br>
             call (similar to SIP Accept-Language syntax). <br>
          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
      </blockquote>
    </blockquote>
    Since the comparison with Accept-Language syntax was made already
    then, I guess that the intention was <br>
    to use syntax according to this example:<br>
    a=humintlang-send: en, *<br>
    and<br>
    a=humintlang-send: en, fr, es, *<br>
     <br>
    To add the asterisk right on the language-tag could conflict with a
    future revision of the language tag syntax. The asterisk is not
    defined as a delimiter for the language tag.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:p0624060ad3b82ae52516@[10.134.253.167]"
      type="cite">
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <blockquote type="cite"> Either way, the called
            <br>
             party may ignore this, e.g., for the emergency services use
            case, a
            <br>
             PSAP will likely not fail the call.
            <br>
          </blockquote>
          <br>
           We can easily delete the "(similar to SIP Accept-Language
          syntax)" text
          <br>
           if that is causing heartburn.  I suggest sending a request to
          do so as a
          <br>
           WGLC comment.
          <br>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
         Hello Randy,
        <br>
        <br>
         Thanks for giving the history of this particular item.
        <br>
        <br>
         However, I strongly suggest that this be changed so that it
        matches better what other IETF protocols and related
        specifications do.
        <br>
        <br>
         If somebody sees something like
        <br>
         a=humintlang-send:en*
        <br>
         there's a big chance they interpret it as "any kind of
        English", rather than as "English, or anything else if that's
        not available", although as far as I understand, according to
        the current spec, it would be the later. Such misunderstandings
        might happen to anybody who knows HTTP or SMTP or SIP or BCP 47,
        which is a wide range of people.
        <br>
        <br>
         The current interpretation also makes one think what
        <br>
         a=humintlang-send:en*
        <br>
         a=humintlang-send:es
        <br>
         means. It probably means "English, or anything else if it's not
        available, or Spanish, but don't care to provide anything else
        if Spanish isn't available." This is very subtly, and probably
        needlessly, different from "English, or Spanish, or anything
        else if these are not available" (actually, I have to admit I'm
        not sure it's different or not, but that alone is a bad sign for
        this design).
        <br>
        <br>
         Regards,   Martin.
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      <br>
      Hi Martin,
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      Personally, I'm not convinced that it's necessary to modify the
      syntax so that people who haven't read the spec will not be
      confused in one particular way.  This particular syntax was not my
      idea and I'm not stuck on it, but it was suggested by people with
      very long experience in HTTP and SMTP and SIP, so I have to think
      it can't be all that confusing.  I happen to have some experience
      in these areas as well and never thought it was confusing in the
      context of this draft.
      <br>
      <br>
      I would strongly object to replacing it with a complex scheme as
      Gunnar proposed.  I might not object if the group wanted to
      replace it with something just as simple as what we have now,
      e.g., using a character other than an asterisk
      ("a=humintlang-send:en?"), or using an asterisk in lieu of a
      language tag ("a=humintlang-send:*"), but would have to ask if
      such a change is worth it, or if someone else wouldn't come up
      with an equal reason to not do it that way.
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    (GH) Yes, it would make much more sense with a=humintlang-send:*<br>
    Or the Accept-Language syntax with a comma separated list of
    language tags, with the asterisk comma separated.<br>
    <br>
    But there are a couple of other things to discuss before we settle
    it.<br>
    <br>
    <b>1. The Advisory/Required notation and default.</b><b><br>
    </b>As the text describes the "Advisory" feature, it is a session
    feature, not bound to any specific language or media or direction.
    So, hooking it on to a specific language, media and direction is not
    logical. And there is strong motivation in the text about why the
    lack of the asterisk should not be taken for a "Required"
    indication. So the "Advisory" state is kind of default even when
    that is what the only value of the feature parameter indicates. The
    logic is quite fuzzy and would need an improvement. Most logical
    would be a session level attribute with "fail if no language match
    is found" as value and "do not fail" as default.  <br>
    <b><br>
    </b><b>2. Inconvenient notation for majority of cases.</b><br>
    I think most developers will find the need to specify the majority
    of cases in two very equal attributes (one for send and one for
    receive) a bit space-consuming and awkward. It would feel more
    natural and save characters if we had a common language attribute
    with a parameter value for the direction with send and recv and both
    as possible values, and both as default.  <br>
    ( I have already got this reaction from developers)<br>
    <br>
    <b>3. Character-expensive notation for call-centers?</b><br>
    How do we foresee the use of humintlang by multi-language call
    centers when calling out? Will they include a long list of
    languages, or will they call without sdp, and expect the answering
    part to start providing language preferences? If they will provide a
    long list, it will take about 40 characters overhead in SDP per
    language compared to the comma-separated syntax of Accept-Language
    (if also issue 2 above is taken into consideration ). <br>
    Should we bother about character-economy in sdp and change to the
    syntax-style of Accept-Language? <br>
    <b><br>
    </b><b>4. Accept-Language style notation can be simplified</b><br>
    When I copied the whole Accept-Language syntax from RFC 3261, there
    were some reactions that it was too complex. It is of course
    possible to delete elements in that syntax and still maintain the
    structure. <br>
    This would be a valid subset ( if we do not do anything to issues 1
    and 2 above):<br>
    <pre style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 1; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; white-space: pre-wrap;">humintlang-send  =  "a=humintlang-send" HCOLON
                     [ language *(COMMA language) ]
language         =  language-range
language-range   =  ( ( 1*8ALPHA ) / "*" )

And similarly for humintlang-recv </pre>
    <b>5. Place for relative preference notation</b><b><br>
    </b>Even if the notation for a relative preference across the
    session is not included in this draft, it would be good to have a
    prepared place for it in the notation. It is best linked to a
    language and a media and a direction. So it would suit with a
    notation like the current specified syntax of the use of the
    asterisk, but with another character. Or as a parameter to a
    language. <br>
    In my view, the relative preference is far more important than the
    Advisory/Required feature, that is recommended to have so weak
    influence on call completion decisions. <br>
    <br>
    ---------------------<br>
    <br>
    I hope we can have a discussion in the list about these issues
    before conclusions are posted as WGLC issues.<br>
    <br>
    /Gunnar<br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:p0624060ad3b82ae52516@[10.134.253.167]"
      type="cite">
      <br>
      --Randy
      <br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <blockquote type="cite"> At 9:04 AM +0200 7/22/16, Gunnar
          Hellström wrote:
          <br>
          <br>
          <blockquote type="cite">  What I meant with this topic was to
            check if our syntax for use of
            <br>
             the asterisk is safe and non-ambiguous.
            <br>
            <br>
              And then I discovered that the syntax is not similar to
            the use in
            <br>
             Accept-language as the text in 6.3 says. Accept-language
            has the
            <br>
             asterisk comma-separated from the language tags ( "en, *"
            ).  I find
            <br>
             no previous use of an asterisk tacked on directly to the
            language tag
            <br>
             as our examples show ( "en*" ).
            <br>
            <br>
              But since the language tag is alphanumeric, and RFC 4566
            allows
            <br>
             attribute values to be any byte string, the syntax seems
            allowable. I
            <br>
             would like other's views on if it is advisable.
            <br>
            <br>
              The similarity with the Accept-language is not the syntax,
            but the
            <br>
             intention of use. The asterisk shows that language-matching
            does not
            <br>
             need to be successfully completed for the call to be
            accepted. The
            <br>
             reasoning says that that is usually the case anyway.
            <br>
            <br>
              The syntax is not really logical. The asterisk does not
            belong to any
            <br>
             specific language attribute. It would be more logical to
            have it as an
            <br>
             attribute value of its own in a separate humintlang
            attribute. But
            <br>
             that is less compact.
            <br>
            <br>
              Another syntax question is if whitespace is allowed before
            the
            <br>
             asterisk. SIP says that whitespace is usually allowed
            around the
            <br>
             asterisk, but this is an sdp attribute and in RFC 4566 no
            such habit
            <br>
             is documented.
            <br>
            <br>
              The result is anyway that we need decisions on the
            questions above
            <br>
             and a matching formal syntax description.
            <br>
            <br>
              I assume that a syntax description for the current syntax
            would be
            <br>
             this, that we should put in the beginning of 6.5 and call
            that Syntax
            <br>
             and examples:
            <br>
            <br>
              ------------------------------------Proposed addition to
            the
            <br>
             beginning of 6.5---------------------
            <br>
            <br>
              6.5 Syntax and examples
            <br>
            <br>
              The attributes may occur a number of times and follow this
            syntax:
            <br>
            <br>
              a=humintlang-send:&lt;language-tag&gt;[&lt;relevance&gt;]
            <br>
            <br>
              a=humintlang-recv:&lt;language-tag&gt;[&lt;relevance&gt;]
            <br>
            <br>
              &lt;language-tag&gt; is a language tag according to RFC
            4566.
            <br>
            <br>
              &lt;relevance&gt; is an optional modifier that adds
            information on the
            <br>
             relevance of the attribute or a group of attributes. It
            consists of
            <br>
             characters not allowed in language tags. One value for
            &lt;relevance&gt; is
            <br>
             specified here. It is an asterisk "*" that implies that the
            call
            <br>
             should be accepted even if there is no complete language
            match between
            <br>
             the offeror and that answering party. Other values of the
            relevance
            <br>
             parameter may be defined in other specifications. The order
            of the
            <br>
             values within the relevance parameter is not relevant.
            Whitespace is
            <br>
             not allowed before and within the relevance parameter.
            Unrecognized
            <br>
             values in the relevance parameter shall be ignored.
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
              In 6.3, the paranthesis
            <br>
            <br>
              "(similar to SIP Accept-Language syntax)"
            <br>
            <br>
              should be changed to:
            <br>
            <br>
              "(similar to the purpose of the use of the asterisk in the
            SIP
            <br>
             Accept-Language header )"
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
              /Gunnar
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
            <br>
              Den 2016-07-21 kl. 20:13, skrev Phillips, Addison:
            <br>
            <br>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <blockquote type="cite">  Of course we could define our
                own syntax for this parameter, but
                <br>
                 then we
                <br>
                  should not say that it is similar to the use in
                Accept-Language,
                <br>
                 and we should
                <br>
                  double check with the rfc 5646 experts to verify that
                we can append
                <br>
                 the
                <br>
                  asterisk on the tag.
                <br>
                <br>
              </blockquote>
                BCP47 (RFC 4647 in this case) defines some different
              language
              <br>
               matching schemes besides that of rfc3261. Of interest
              here is the
              <br>
               concept of "extended language range" which allows for
              asterisks in a
              <br>
               range.
              <br>
              <br>
              <br>
              <br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-2.2">&lt;https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-2.2&gt;</a><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-2.2">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-2.2</a>
              <br>
              <br>
              <br>
              <br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-3.3.2">&lt;https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-3.3.2&gt;</a><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-3.3.2">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4647#section-3.3.2</a>
              <br>
              <br>
              <br>
                Addison
              <br>
              <br>
                Addison Phillips
              <br>
                Principal SDE, I18N Architect (Amazon)
              <br>
                Chair (W3C I18N WG)
              <br>
              <br>
                Internationalization is not a feature.
              <br>
                It is an architecture.
              <br>
              <br>
              <br>
              <blockquote type="cite">  -----Original Message-----
                <br>
                  From: SLIM
                <br>
 [<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:slim-bounces@ietf.org">&lt;mailto:slim-bounces@ietf.org&gt;</a><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:slim-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:slim-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On
                <br>
                 Behalf Of Gunnar Hellström
                <br>
                  Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2016 11:08 AM
                <br>
                  To: <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:slim@ietf.org">&lt;mailto:slim@ietf.org&gt;</a><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:slim@ietf.org">slim@ietf.org</a>
                <br>
                  Subject: [Slim] Syntax of combination of language tag
                and Advisory vs
                <br>
                  Required indication in
                draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
                <br>
                <br>
                  Randall,
                <br>
                <br>
                  Section 6.3 of
                draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-04 says:
                <br>
                  "The mechanism for indicating this preference is that,
                in an offer,
                <br>
                 if the last
                <br>
                  character of any of the 'humintlang-recv' or
                'humintlang- send'
                <br>
                  values is an asterisk, this indicates a request to not
                fail the
                <br>
                 call (similar to SIP
                <br>
                  Accept-Language syntax)."
                <br>
                <br>
                  An example from section 6.5 is
                <br>
                <br>
                    a=humintlang-send:ase*
                <br>
                <br>
                  I have looked at the syntax description of SIP
                Accept-Language in RFC
                <br>
                  3261 section 25.1 , and got to the conclusion that the
                asterisk is
                <br>
                 used in place
                <br>
                  of a language tag, and not combined with the language
                tag as you have
                <br>
                  specified it for the slim real-time draft.
                <br>
                <br>
                  So, following that syntax, my interpretation is that
                we would need
                <br>
                 a syntax
                <br>
                  according to this example
                <br>
                <br>
                    a=humintlang-send:*
                <br>
                <br>
                  or, taking inspiration from the Accept-Language
                syntax, we could
                <br>
                 change the
                <br>
                  syntax of our attributes and allow enumeration of the
                language tags
                <br>
                 comma
                <br>
                  separated and include the asterisk among them.
                <br>
                <br>
                    a=humintlang-send:ase, *
                <br>
                <br>
                  Of course we could define our own syntax for this
                parameter, but
                <br>
                 then we
                <br>
                  should not say that it is similar to the use in
                Accept-Language,
                <br>
                 and we should
                <br>
                  double check with the rfc 5646 experts to verify that
                we can append
                <br>
                 the
                <br>
                  asterisk on the tag.
                <br>
                <br>
                  Please check this and explain your interpretation, or
                propose
                <br>
                 modifications.
                <br>
                <br>
                  /Gunnar
                <br>
                <br>
                  --
                <br>
                  -----------------------------------------
                <br>
                  Gunnar Hellström
                <br>
                  Omnitor
                <br>
                 
                <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">&lt;mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se&gt;</a><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>
                <br>
                  +46 708 204 288
                <br>
                <br>
                  _______________________________________________
                <br>
                  SLIM mailing list
                <br>
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:SLIM@ietf.org">&lt;mailto:SLIM@ietf.org&gt;</a><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:SLIM@ietf.org">SLIM@ietf.org</a>
                <br>
                <br>
                <br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim">&lt;https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim&gt;</a><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a>
                <br>
                <br>
              </blockquote>
            </blockquote>
            <br>
              --
            <br>
              -----------------------------------------
            <br>
              Gunnar Hellström
            <br>
              Omnitor
            <br>
             
            <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">&lt;mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se&gt;</a><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>
            <br>
              +46 708 204 288
            <br>
            <br>
              _______________________________________________
            <br>
              SLIM mailing list
            <br>
              <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:SLIM@ietf.org">SLIM@ietf.org</a>
            <br>
              <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a>
            <br>
          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>
+46 708 204 288</pre>
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From: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org>
To: <slim@ietf.org>, "Gunnar Hellström" <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>
References: <7697c842-1c68-e4d6-fba8-cc3a51327585@omnitor.se> <c81f8834632e4002b75a3cad04e9cb78@EX13D08UWB002.ant.amazon.com> <3c031820-ca86-41ae-01a8-a83ab0b80041@omnitor.se> <p06240600d3b779ecaa71@[10.134.253.167]> <3b8e4df7-a6d6-e33d-a023-58186c1a4354@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <p0624060ad3b82ae52516@[10.134.253.167]> <b438520d-5767-241f-ff29-df502c0ec82d@omnitor.se>
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Subject: Re: [Slim] Syntax of combination of language tag and Advisory vs Required indication in draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
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Gunnar Hellström wrote:

> Since the comparison with Accept-Language syntax was made already
> then, I guess that the intention was to use syntax according to this
> example:
> a=humintlang-send: en, *
> and
> a=humintlang-send: en, fr, es, *
>
> To add the asterisk right on the language-tag could conflict with a
> future revision of the language tag syntax. The asterisk is not
> defined as a delimiter for the language tag.

Unless Gunnar knows something we don't, there is no plan, in the near or 
distant future, to revise the language tag syntax to permit an asterisk 
to be postfixed to any part of a language tag. Such a change could have 
only two effects:

1. create incompatibility with legions of applications which depend on 
the fundamental syntax of "letters and/or digits, separated by hyphens"

2. create confusion with the RFC 4647 use of "*" to mean "any tag" or to 
serve as a wildcard for non-primary subtags

Reading RFC 4647 might be enlightening here.

The proposed syntax "a=humintlang-send: en, fr, es, *" could also cause 
confusion with (2) above, to the extent there is concern about users who 
don't read the spec.

> Or the Accept-Language syntax with a comma separated list of language
> tags, with the asterisk comma separated.
>
> But there are a couple of other things to discuss before we settle it.
>
> 1. The Advisory/Required notation and default.
> 2. Inconvenient notation for majority of cases.
> 3. Character-expensive notation for call-centers?
> 4. Accept-Language style notation can be simplified

Gosh, I thought this WG was much farther along than this. It appears 
that elementary syntax decisions are still up for discussion.

--
Doug Ewell | Thornton, CO, US | ewellic.org


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From: Natasha Rooney <nrooney@gsma.com>
To: Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>
Thread-Topic: [Slim] Documents in WGLC
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Subject: Re: [Slim] Documents in WGLC
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Sure np - realtime 04. Got it!


Natasha


Natasha Rooney | Technologist, Web and Internet, W3C & IETF | GSMA | nroone=
y@gsma.com<mailto:nrooney@gsma.com> | +44 (0) 7730 219 765 | @thisNatasha |=
 Skype: nrooney@gsm.org<mailto:nrooney@gsm.org>


On 22 Jul 2016, at 22:15, Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org<mailto=
:rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>> wrote:

At 10:39 AM +0000 7/22/16, Natasha Rooney wrote:

Hi all,

Thanks for the meeting this week. We are pleased to announce that both draf=
ts below have entered into Working Group Last Call. We will aim to exit WGL=
C on 12th August, which gives us three week from today.

draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-01
Multiple Language Content Type

draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-01  Negotiating Human Language i=
n Real-Time Communications

Issues: if you have issues please submit these to the IETF Issue Tracker at=
 [1]. Please feel free to discuss items on the list also.

Can you please update the real time draft to -04?  Thank you.

--
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
To stay young requires unceasing cultivation of the ability to
unlearn falsehoods.                             --Lazarus Long


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<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
Sure np - realtime 04. Got it!<br class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; t=
ext-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: norm=
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<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; t=
ext-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: norm=
al; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-w=
rap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-=
space;" class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Natasha<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Natasha Rooney | Technologist, Web&nbsp;and Internet, W3C &amp; IETF | GSMA=
 |&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:nrooney@gsma.com" class=3D"">nrooney@gsma.com</a>=
&nbsp;| &#43;44 (0) 7730&nbsp;219 765 | @thisNatasha | Skype:&nbsp;<a href=
=3D"mailto:nrooney@gsm.org" class=3D"">nrooney@gsm.org</a><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
<div style=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On 22 Jul 2016, at 22:15, Randall Gellens &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:rg&#43;ietf@randy.pensive.org" class=3D"">rg&#43;ietf@randy.pensive.or=
g</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">At 10:39 AM &#43;0000 7/22/16, Natasha Rooney wrote:<br cla=
ss=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Hi all,<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Thanks for the meeting this week. We are pleased to announce that both draf=
ts below have entered into Working Group Last Call. We will aim to exit WGL=
C on 12th August, which gives us three week from today.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-01<br class=3D"">
Multiple Language Content Type<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-01 &nbsp;Negotiating Human Langu=
age in Real-Time Communications<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Issues: if you have issues please submit these to the IETF Issue Tracker at=
 [1]. Please feel free to discuss items on the list also.<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<br class=3D"">
Can you please update the real time draft to -04? &nbsp;Thank you.<br class=
=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
-- <br class=3D"">
Randall Gellens<br class=3D"">
Opinions are personal; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;facts are suspect; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;I speak for myself only<br class=3D"">
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------<br class=3D"">
To stay young requires unceasing cultivation of the ability to<br class=3D"=
">
unlearn falsehoods. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;--Lazarus Long<br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
<p style=3D"font-family: Arial,sans-serif;font-size:11px;color:#999999;"><s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family: Arial,sans-serif;color:#999999; ms=
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uage: EN-GB; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">This
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From: Natasha Rooney <nrooney@gsma.com>
To: Nik Tomkinson <rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Slim] Documents in WGLC
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From: Nik Tomkinson <rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2016 13:44:09 +0100
Message-ID: <CAK5rQdygEw4S7DnGFWRXazSCSJ+hJG_Cyi9M=ApPKDCEw1wXBw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Natasha Rooney <nrooney@gsma.com>
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Cc: "slim@ietf.org" <slim@ietf.org>, =?UTF-8?Q?Gunnar_Hellstr=C3=B6m?= <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>
Subject: Re: [Slim] Documents in WGLC
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Thanks for doing that. I have spotted a slight inconsistency in my
document, do I need to create a ticket (now it is in WGLC) or can I just
edit and submit a new version?

Also, will the WG State on
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/ be
updated to show WGLC automatically or do I need to do anything for that to
happen?

Nik.

On 25 July 2016 at 13:31, Natasha Rooney <nrooney@gsma.com> wrote:

> Sure np! multilangcontent-03!
>
>
> Natasha
>
>
> Natasha Rooney | Technologist, Web and Internet, W3C & IETF | GSMA |
> nrooney@gsma.com | +44 (0) 7730 219 765 | @thisNatasha | Skype:
> nrooney@gsm.org
>
>
> On 22 Jul 2016, at 19:15, Nik Tomkinson <rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Natasha/Bernard,
>
> please can you make the draft version that is put forward to WGLC instead=
:
>
> draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-03
>
> as this is the latest version as of today (which has some very useful
> additions).
>
> Thanks,
>
> Nik.
>
> On 22 July 2016 at 12:02, Gunnar Hellstr=C3=B6m <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor=
.se>
> wrote:
>
>> Natasha,
>>
>> A large number of issues have been cleared up to
>> draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-04
>>
>> Can you make that the base for the WGLC instead?
>>
>> Or, what is the procedure for getting version -04 recognized?
>>
>> /Gunnar
>>
>> Den 2016-07-22 kl. 12:39, skrev Natasha Rooney:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Thanks for the meeting this week. We are pleased to announce that both
>> drafts below have entered into Working Group Last Call. We will aim to e=
xit
>> WGLC on 12th August, which gives us three week from today.
>>
>> draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-01
>> Multiple Language Content Type
>>
>> draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-01
>> Negotiating Human Language in Real-Time Communications
>>
>> *Issues: *if you have issues please submit these to the IETF Issue
>> Tracker at [1]. Please feel free to discuss items on the list also.
>>
>> Thanks everyone!
>>
>> Natasha
>>
>> [1] https://tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/trac/newticket
>>
>> Natasha Rooney | Technologist, Web and Internet, W3C & IETF | GSMA |
>> nrooney@gsma.com | +44 (0) 7730 219 765 | @thisNatasha | Skype:
>> nrooney@gsm.org
>>
>>
>> This email and its attachments are intended for the above named only and
>> may be confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take no
>> action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; please
>> reply to this email or call +44 207 356 0600 and highlight the error.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> SLIM mailing listSLIM@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>>
>>
>> --
>> -----------------------------------------
>> Gunnar Hellstr=C3=B6m
>> Omnitorgunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
>> +46 708 204 288
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> SLIM mailing list
>> SLIM@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Multiple Language Content Type Internet Draft:
>
> <http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-multilangcontent/>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/
> <http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-slim-multilangcontent/>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> This email and its attachments are intended for the above named only and
> may be confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take no
> action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; please
> reply to this email or call +44 207 356 0600 and highlight the error.
>



--=20

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Multiple Language Content Type Internet Draft:

<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-multilangcontent/>
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/
<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-slim-multilangcontent/>

-----------------------------------------------------------------

--001a113e1eaafe2b9f0538752313
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks for doing that. I have spotted a slight inconsisten=
cy in my document, do I need to create a ticket (now it is in WGLC) or can =
I just edit and submit a new version?<div><br></div><div>Also, will the WG =
State on=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-m=
ultilangcontent/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilan=
gcontent/</a> be updated to show WGLC automatically or do I need to do anyt=
hing for that to happen?</div><div><br></div><div>Nik.</div></div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 25 July 2016 at 13:31, =
Natasha Rooney <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nrooney@gsma.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">nrooney@gsma.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
Sure np! multilangcontent-03!<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"=
><br>
</font></span><div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
</font></span><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin=
g:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
</font></span><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin=
g:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
</font></span><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacin=
g:0px;word-wrap:break-word"><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
<br>
<br>
Natasha</font></span><span class=3D""><br>
<br>
<br>
Natasha Rooney | Technologist, Web=C2=A0and Internet, W3C &amp; IETF | GSMA=
 |=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:nrooney@gsma.com" target=3D"_blank">nrooney@gsma.=
com</a>=C2=A0| <a href=3D"tel:%2B44%20%280%29%207730%C2%A0219%20765" value=
=3D"+447730219765" target=3D"_blank">+44 (0) 7730=C2=A0219 765</a> | @thisN=
atasha | Skype:=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:nrooney@gsm.org" target=3D"_blank">n=
rooney@gsm.org</a><br>
<br>
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<br>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On 22 Jul 2016, at 19:15, Nik Tomkinson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rfc.nik.=
tomkinson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Natasha/Bernard,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>please can you make the draft version that is put forward to WGLC inst=
ead:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-03<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>as this is the latest version as of today (which has some very useful =
additions).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Nik.</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 22 July 2016 at 12:02, Gunnar Hellstr=C3=B6m =
<span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se" target=3D"_blank">gunnar=
.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
<p>Natasha,</p>
<p>A large number of issues have been cleared up to draft-ietf-slim-negotia=
ting-human-language-04</p>
<p>Can you make that the base for the WGLC instead?</p>
<p>Or, what is the procedure for getting version -04 recognized?</p>
<p>/Gunnar<br>
</p>
<div>
<div><br>
<div>Den 2016-07-22 kl. 12:39, skrev Natasha Rooney:<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div>Hi all,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks for the meeting this week. We are pleased to announce that both=
 drafts below have entered into Working Group Last Call. We will aim to exi=
t WGLC on 12th August, which gives us three week from today.=C2=A0
<div><br>
draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-01=C2=A0<br>
Multiple Language Content Type<br>
<br>
draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-01=C2=A0<br>
Negotiating Human Language in Real-Time=C2=A0Communications</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><b>Issues: </b>if you have issues please submit these to the IETF Issu=
e Tracker at [1]. Please feel free to discuss items on the list also.=C2=A0=
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks everyone!</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
<div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
<div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
<br>
Natasha<br>
<br>
[1]=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/trac/newticket" target=
=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/trac/newticket</a><br>
<br>
Natasha Rooney | Technologist, Web=C2=A0and Internet, W3C &amp; IETF | GSMA=
 |=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:nrooney@gsma.com" target=3D"_blank">nrooney@gsma.=
com</a>=C2=A0|
<a href=3D"tel:%2B44%20%280%29%207730%C2%A0219%20765" value=3D"+44773021976=
5" target=3D"_blank">
+44 (0) 7730=C2=A0219 765</a> | @thisNatasha | Skype:=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailt=
o:nrooney@gsm.org" target=3D"_blank">nrooney@gsm.org</a><br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<p style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:11px;color:#999999"><spa=
n style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:#999999" lang=3D"EN-US">This =
email and its attachments are intended for the above named only and may be =
confidential. If they
 have come to you in error you must take no action based on them, nor must =
you copy or show them to anyone; please reply to this email or call
<a href=3D"tel:%2B44%20207%20356%200600" value=3D"+442073560600" target=3D"=
_blank">
+44 207 356 0600</a> and highlight the error. </span></p>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset> <br>
</div>
</div>
<span>
<pre>_______________________________________________
SLIM mailing list
<a href=3D"mailto:SLIM@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">SLIM@ietf.org</a>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a>
</pre>
</span></blockquote>
<span><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
<pre cols=3D"72">--=20
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellstr=C3=B6m
Omnitor
<a href=3D"mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se" target=3D"_blank">gunnar.hel=
lstrom@omnitor.se</a>
+46 708 204 288</pre>
</font></span></div>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
SLIM mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:SLIM@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">SLIM@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear=3D"all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace">--------------------=
---------------------------------------------<br>Multiple Language Content =
Type Internet Draft:</span></pre>
<a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-multilangcontent=
/" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace"></sp=
an></a><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-slim-mult=
ilangcontent/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iet=
f-slim-multilangcontent/</a><br>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace">--------------------=
---------------------------------------------</span><br></pre>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<p style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:11px;color:#999999"><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:#999999">This
 email and its attachments are intended for the above named only and may be=
 confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take no action ba=
sed on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; please reply to this=
 email or call <a href=3D"tel:%2B44%20207%20356%200600" value=3D"+442073560=
600" target=3D"_blank">+44 207 356 0600</a>
 and highlight the error. </span></p>
</div></div></div>

</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=
=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><pre><span =
style=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace">-------------------------------=
----------------------------------<br>Multiple Language Content Type Intern=
et Draft:</span></pre><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomk=
inson-multilangcontent/" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-family:couri=
er new,monospace"></span></a><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dra=
ft-tomkinson-slim-multilangcontent/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.=
ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/</a><br><pre><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:courier new,monospace">-----------------------------------------=
------------------------</span><br></pre></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div>
</div>

--001a113e1eaafe2b9f0538752313--


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From: Natasha Rooney <nrooney@gsma.com>
To: Nik Tomkinson <rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Slim] Documents in WGLC
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From: Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>
To: Nik Tomkinson <rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail.com>, Natasha Rooney <nrooney@gsma.com>
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Cc: slim@ietf.org, =?utf-8?Q?Gunnar=20Hellstr=C3=B6m?= <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>
Subject: Re: [Slim] Documents in WGLC
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Hi Nik,
=20
On Mon, Jul 25, 2016, at 01:44 PM, Nik Tomkinson wrote:
> Thanks for doing that. I have spotted a slight inconsistency in my
> document, do I need to create a ticket (now it is in WGLC) or can I
> just edit and submit a new version?
=20
Either way is fine, the process is up to WG chairs (So basically do what
they prefer).
=20
>
> Also, will the WG State on
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/ be
> updated to show WGLC automatically or do I need to do anything for
> that to happen?
=20
Chairs need to change this manually.
>
> Nik.
>
> On 25 July 2016 at 13:31, Natasha Rooney <nrooney@gsma.com> wrote:
>> Sure np! multilangcontent-03!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Natasha
>>
>>
>>  Natasha Rooney | Technologist, Web and Internet, W3C & IETF | GSMA |
>>  nrooney@gsma.com | +44 (0) 7730 219 765[1] | @thisNatasha | Skype:
>>  nrooney@gsm.org
>>
>>> On 22 Jul 2016, at 19:15, Nik Tomkinson
>>> <rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Natasha/Bernard,
>>>
>>> please can you make the draft version that is put forward to WGLC
>>> instead:
>>>
>>> draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-03
>>>
>>> as this is the latest version as of today (which has some very
>>> useful additions).
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Nik.
>>>
>>> On 22 July 2016 at 12:02, Gunnar Hellstr=C3=B6m
>>> <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Natasha,
>>>> A large number of issues have been cleared up to draft-ietf-slim-negot=
iating-human-language-
>>>> 04
>>>> Can you make that the base for the WGLC instead?
>>>> Or, what is the procedure for getting version -04 recognized?
>>>> /Gunnar
>>>>
>>>> Den 2016-07-22 kl. 12:39, skrev Natasha Rooney:
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for the meeting this week. We are pleased to announce that
>>>>> both drafts below have entered into Working Group Last Call. We
>>>>> will aim to exit WGLC on 12th August, which gives us three week
>>>>> from today.
>>>>>
>>>>> draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-01
>>>>>  Multiple Language Content Type
>>>>>
>>>>>  draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-01
>>>>>  Negotiating Human Language in Real-Time Communications
>>>>>
>>>>> *Issues: *if you have issues please submit these to the IETF Issue
>>>>> Tracker at [1]. Please feel free to discuss items on the list
>>>>> also.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks everyone!
>>>>>
>>>>> Natasha
>>>>>
>>>>>  [1] https://tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/trac/newticket
>>>>>
>>>>>  Natasha Rooney | Technologist, Web and Internet, W3C & IETF |
>>>>>  GSMA | nrooney@gsma.com |  +44 (0) 7730 219 765[2] | @thisNatasha
>>>>>  | Skype: nrooney@gsm.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This email and its attachments are intended for the above named
>>>>> only and may be confidential. If they have come to you in error
>>>>> you must take no action based on them, nor must you copy or show
>>>>> them to anyone; please reply to this email or call  +44 207 356
>>>>> 0600[3] and highlight the error.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________ SLIM mailing list
>>>>> SLIM@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- ----------------------------------------- Gunnar Hellstr=C3=B6m
>>>> Omnitor gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se +46 708 204 288
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>  SLIM mailing list
>>>> SLIM@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Multiple Language Content Type Internet Draft:
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/[4]
>>>
>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> This email and its attachments are intended for the above named only
>> and may be confidential. If they have come to you in error you must
>> take no action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to
>> anyone; please reply to this email or call +44 207 356 0600[5] and
>> highlight the error.
>
>
>
> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Multiple Language Content Type Internet Draft:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/[6]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> _________________________________________________
> SLIM mailing list
> SLIM@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
=C2=A0

Links:

  1. tel:%2B44%20%280%29%207730%C2%A0219%20765
  2. tel:%2B44%20%280%29%207730%C2%A0219%20765
  3. tel:%2B44%20207%20356%200600
  4. http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-slim-multilangcontent/
  5. tel:%2B44%20207%20356%200600
  6. http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-slim-multilangcontent/

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<!DOCTYPE html>
<html>
<head>
<title></title>
</head>
<body><div>Hi Nik,</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>On Mon, Jul 25, 2016, at 01:44 PM, Nik Tomkinson wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Thanks for doing that. I ha=
ve spotted a slight inconsistency in my document, do I need to create a tic=
ket (now it is in WGLC) or can I just edit and submit a new version?<br></d=
iv>
</div>
</blockquote><div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Either way is fine, the process is up to WG chairs (So basically do wh=
at they prefer).<br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Also, will the WG State on&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.or=
g/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/d=
raft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/</a> be updated to show WGLC automatically =
or do I need to do anything for that to happen?<br></div>
</div>
</blockquote><div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Chairs need to change this manually.</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Nik.<br></div>
</div>
<div><div>&nbsp;</div>
<div defang_data-gmailquote=3D"yes"><div>On 25 July 2016 at 13:31, Natasha =
Rooney <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nrooney@gsma.com">nrooney@gs=
ma.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;marg=
in-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);bo=
rder-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;" defang_data-gmailquote=3D"yes"><di=
v style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;"><div>Sure np! multilangcontent-03!<span><=
span class=3D"colour" style=3D"color:rgb(136, 136, 136)"><br> </span></span=
></div>
<div><div>&nbsp;</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0, 0, 0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;tex=
t-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-w=
rap:break-word;"><div>&nbsp;</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0, 0, 0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;tex=
t-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-w=
rap:break-word;"><div>&nbsp;</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0, 0, 0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;tex=
t-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-w=
rap:break-word;"><span><span class=3D"colour" style=3D"color:rgb(136, 136, =
136)"><br><br>Natasha</span></span><span><br> <br> <br> Natasha Rooney | Te=
chnologist, Web&nbsp;and Internet, W3C &amp; IETF | GSMA |&nbsp;<a href=3D"=
mailto:nrooney@gsma.com">nrooney@gsma.com</a>&nbsp;| <a href=3D"tel:%2B44%2=
0%280%29%207730%C2%A0219%20765">+44 (0) 7730&nbsp;219 765</a> | @thisNatash=
a | Skype:&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:nrooney@gsm.org">nrooney@gsm.org</a><br> =
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><div><div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On 22 Jul 2016, at 19:15, Nik Tomkinson=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail.com">rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Natasha/Bernard, <br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>please can you make the draft version that is put forward to WGLC inst=
ead:<br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-03<br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>as this is the latest version as of today (which has some very useful =
additions).<br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Thanks,<br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Nik.<br></div>
</div>
<div><div>&nbsp;</div>
<div defang_data-gmailquote=3D"yes"><div>On 22 July 2016 at 12:02, Gunnar H=
ellstr=C3=B6m <span dir=3D"ltr"> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omn=
itor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;marg=
in-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204, 204, 204);bo=
rder-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;" defang_data-gmailquote=3D"yes"><di=
v bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p>Natasha,<br></p><p>A large number of issues have b=
een cleared up to draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-04<br></p><p>C=
an you make that the base for the WGLC instead?<br></p><p>Or, what is the p=
rocedure for getting version -04 recognized?<br></p><p>/Gunnar<br></p><div>=
<div><div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Den 2016-07-22 kl. 12:39, skrev Natasha Rooney:<br></div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div><div>Hi all, <br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><div>Thanks for the meeting this week. We are pleased to announce that=
 both drafts below have entered into Working Group Last Call. We will aim t=
o exit WGLC on 12th August, which gives us three week from today. <br></div>
<div><div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-01&nbsp;<br></div>
<div> Multiple Language Content Type<br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div> draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-01&nbsp;<br></div>
<div> Negotiating Human Language in Real-Time&nbsp;Communications<br></div>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><b>Issues: </b>if you have issues please submit these to the IETF Issu=
e Tracker at [1]. Please feel free to discuss items on the list also.&nbsp;=
<br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Thanks everyone!<br></div>
<div><div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;t=
ext-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word=
;"><div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;tex=
t-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word;"=
><div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-=
transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word;"><=
div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>Natasha<br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div> [1]&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/trac/newticket">ht=
tps://tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/trac/newticket</a><br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div> Natasha Rooney | Technologist, Web&nbsp;and Internet, W3C &amp; IETF =
| GSMA |&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:nrooney@gsma.com">nrooney@gsma.com</a>&nbsp=
;| <a href=3D"tel:%2B44%20%280%29%207730%C2%A0219%20765"> +44 (0) 7730&nbsp=
;219 765</a> | @thisNatasha | Skype:&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:nrooney@gsm.org=
">nrooney@gsm.org</a><br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<p style=3D""><span class=3D"colour" style=3D"color:rgb(153, 153, 153)"><sp=
an class=3D"font" style=3D"font-family:Arial, sans-serif"><span class=3D"si=
ze" style=3D"font-size:11px"><span class=3D"colour" style=3D"color:rgb(153,=
 153, 153)"><span class=3D"font" style=3D"font-family:Arial, sans-serif">Th=
is email and its attachments are intended for the above named only and may =
be confidential. If they
 have come to you in error you must take no action based on them, nor must =
you copy or show them to anyone; please reply to this email or call <a href=
=3D"tel:%2B44%20207%20356%200600"> +44 207 356 0600</a> and highlight the e=
rror.</span></span></span></span></span><br></p><div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<pre><span>_______________________________________________
SLIM mailing list
<a href=3D"mailto:SLIM@ietf.org">SLIM@ietf.org</a>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim">https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/slim</a>
</span><br></pre><div>&nbsp;</div>
</blockquote><div>&nbsp;</div>
<pre><span><span class=3D"colour" style=3D"color:rgb(136, 136, 136)">--=20
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellstr=C3=B6m
Omnitor
<a href=3D"mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se<=
/a>
+46 708 204 288</span></span><br></pre><div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>_______________________________________________<br></div>
<div> SLIM mailing list<br></div>
<div> <a href=3D"mailto:SLIM@ietf.org">SLIM@ietf.org</a><br></div>
<div> <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim">https://www.ie=
tf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a><br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</blockquote></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>--<br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><pre><span class=3D"font" style=3D"font-family:'courier new', =
monospace">----------------------------------------------------------------=
-<br>Multiple Language Content Type Internet Draft:</span></pre><div><a hre=
f=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-multilangcontent/"><sp=
an class=3D"font" style=3D"font-family:'courier new', monospace"></span></a=
><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-slim-multilangc=
ontent/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/=
</a><br></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<pre><span class=3D"font" style=3D"font-family:'courier new', monospace">--=
---------------------------------------------------------------</span><br><=
/pre></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<p style=3D""><span class=3D"colour" style=3D"color:rgb(153, 153, 153)"><sp=
an class=3D"font" style=3D"font-family:Arial, sans-serif"><span class=3D"si=
ze" style=3D"font-size:11px"><span class=3D"colour" style=3D"color:rgb(153,=
 153, 153)"><span class=3D"font" style=3D"font-family:Arial, sans-serif">Th=
is
 email and its attachments are intended for the above named only and may be=
 confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take no action ba=
sed on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; please reply to this=
 email or call <a href=3D"tel:%2B44%20207%20356%200600">+44 207 356 0600</a=
> and highlight the error.</span></span></span></span></span><br></p></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div>-- <br></div>
<div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><pre><span class=3D"font" style=3D"font-family:'courier new', =
monospace">----------------------------------------------------------------=
-<br>Multiple Language Content Type Internet Draft:</span></pre><div><a hre=
f=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-multilangcontent/"><sp=
an class=3D"font" style=3D"font-family:'courier new', monospace"></span></a=
><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-slim-multilangc=
ontent/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/=
</a><br></div>
<pre><span class=3D"font" style=3D"font-family:'courier new', monospace">--=
---------------------------------------------------------------</span><br><=
/pre></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><u>_______________________________________________</u><br></div>
<div>SLIM mailing list<br></div>
<div><a href=3D"mailto:SLIM@ietf.org">SLIM@ietf.org</a><br></div>
<div><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a><br></div>
</blockquote><div>&nbsp;</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: Natasha Rooney <nrooney@gsma.com>
To: Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>
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Cc: "slim@ietf.org" <slim@ietf.org>, Nik Tomkinson <rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail.com>, =?utf-8?B?R3VubmFyIEhlbGxzdHLDtm0=?= <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>
Subject: Re: [Slim] Documents in WGLC
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From: Nik Tomkinson <rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2016 14:45:06 +0100
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Subject: Re: [Slim] Documents in WGLC
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Thanks,

this is my first I-D so I am still on the learning curve ;-)

I'll update that inconsistency now and let the WGLC process continue as if
I had done nothing.

Nik.

On 25 July 2016 at 14:14, Natasha Rooney <nrooney@gsma.com> wrote:

> Thanks Alexey!
>
> Nik - I=E2=80=99m happy for you just to change the document directly with=
 a small
> inconsistency and for things like typos. For everything else go through t=
he
> issues (as I am sure you already know!).
>
> Natasha
>
>
> Natasha Rooney | Internet Engineering Director | GSMA | nrooney@gsma.com =
|
> +44 (0) 7730 219 765 | @thisNatasha | Skype: nrooney@gsm.org
>
>
> On 25 Jul 2016, at 15:07, Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
> Hi Nik,
>
> On Mon, Jul 25, 2016, at 01:44 PM, Nik Tomkinson wrote:
>
> Thanks for doing that. I have spotted a slight inconsistency in my
> document, do I need to create a ticket (now it is in WGLC) or can I just
> edit and submit a new version?
>
>
> Either way is fine, the process is up to WG chairs (So basically do what
> they prefer).
>
>
>
> Also, will the WG State on
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/ be
> updated to show WGLC automatically or do I need to do anything for that t=
o
> happen?
>
>
> Chairs need to change this manually.
>
>
> Nik.
>
> On 25 July 2016 at 13:31, Natasha Rooney <nrooney@gsma.com> wrote:
>
> Sure np! multilangcontent-03!
>
>
>
>
>
> Natasha
>
>
> Natasha Rooney | Technologist, Web and Internet, W3C & IETF | GSMA |
> nrooney@gsma.com | +44 (0) 7730 219 765 | @thisNatasha | Skype:
> nrooney@gsm.org
>
>
> On 22 Jul 2016, at 19:15, Nik Tomkinson <rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Natasha/Bernard,
>
> please can you make the draft version that is put forward to WGLC instead=
:
>
> draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-03
>
> as this is the latest version as of today (which has some very useful
> additions).
>
> Thanks,
>
> Nik.
>
> On 22 July 2016 at 12:02, Gunnar Hellstr=C3=B6m <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor=
.se>
> wrote:
>
>
> Natasha,
>
> A large number of issues have been cleared up to
> draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-04
>
> Can you make that the base for the WGLC instead?
>
> Or, what is the procedure for getting version -04 recognized?
>
> /Gunnar
>
> Den 2016-07-22 kl. 12:39, skrev Natasha Rooney:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Thanks for the meeting this week. We are pleased to announce that both
> drafts below have entered into Working Group Last Call. We will aim to ex=
it
> WGLC on 12th August, which gives us three week from today.
>
> draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-01
> Multiple Language Content Type
>
> draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-01
> Negotiating Human Language in Real-Time Communications
>
> *Issues: *if you have issues please submit these to the IETF Issue
> Tracker at [1]. Please feel free to discuss items on the list also.
>
> Thanks everyone!
>
> Natasha
>
> [1] https://tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/trac/newticket
>
> Natasha Rooney | Technologist, Web and Internet, W3C & IETF | GSMA |
> nrooney@gsma.com | +44 (0) 7730 219 765
> <%2B44%20%280%29%207730%C2%A0219%20765> | @thisNatasha | Skype:
> nrooney@gsm.org
>
>
>
> This email and its attachments are intended for the above named only and
> may be confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take no
> action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; please
> reply to this email or call +44 207 356 0600 <%2B44%20207%20356%200600> a=
nd
> highlight the error.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> SLIM mailing listSLIM@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> -----------------------------------------
> Gunnar Hellstr=C3=B6m
> Omnitorgunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
> +46 708 204 288
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> SLIM mailing list
> SLIM@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Multiple Language Content Type Internet Draft:
>
> <http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-multilangcontent/>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/
> <http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-slim-multilangcontent/>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> This email and its attachments are intended for the above named only and
> may be confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take no
> action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; please
> reply to this email or call +44 207 356 0600 <%2B44%20207%20356%200600> a=
nd
> highlight the error.
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Multiple Language Content Type Internet Draft:
>
> <http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-multilangcontent/>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/
> <http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-slim-multilangcontent/>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *_______________________________________________*
> SLIM mailing list
> SLIM@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>
>
> This email and its attachments are intended for the above named only and
> may be confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take no
> action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; please
> reply to this email or call +44 207 356 0600 and highlight the error.
>



--=20

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Multiple Language Content Type Internet Draft:

<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-multilangcontent/>
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/
<http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-slim-multilangcontent/>

-----------------------------------------------------------------

--94eb2c06fb2ef5e8e9053875fd1b
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks,<div><br></div><div>this is my first I-D so I am st=
ill on the learning curve ;-)<div><br></div><div>I&#39;ll update that incon=
sistency now and let the WGLC process continue as if I had done nothing.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>Nik.</div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 25 July 2016 at 14:14, Natasha Rooney <span =
dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nrooney@gsma.com" target=3D"_blank">nroon=
ey@gsma.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
Thanks Alexey!
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Nik - I=E2=80=99m happy for you just to change the document directly w=
ith a small inconsistency and for things like typos. For everything else go=
 through the issues (as I am sure you already know!).
<div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word">
<br>
Natasha<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
<br>
<br>
Natasha Rooney | Internet Engineering Director | GSMA |=C2=A0<a href=3D"mai=
lto:nrooney@gsma.com" target=3D"_blank">nrooney@gsma.com</a>=C2=A0| <a href=
=3D"tel:%2B44%20%280%29%207730%C2%A0219%20765" value=3D"+447730219765" targ=
et=3D"_blank">+44 (0) 7730=C2=A0219 765</a> | @thisNatasha | Skype:=C2=A0<a=
 href=3D"mailto:nrooney@gsm.org" target=3D"_blank">nrooney@gsm.org</a><br>
<br>
</font></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<br>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On 25 Jul 2016, at 15:07, Alexey Melnikov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:aameln=
ikov@fastmail.fm" target=3D"_blank">aamelnikov@fastmail.fm</a>&gt; wrote:</=
div>
<br>
<div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-w=
eight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tr=
ansform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
Hi Nik,</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-w=
eight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tr=
ansform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
=C2=A0</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-w=
eight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tr=
ansform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
On Mon, Jul 25, 2016, at 01:44 PM, Nik Tomkinson wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:13px;fon=
t-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;te=
xt-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>Thanks for doing that. I have spotted a slight inconsistency in my doc=
ument, do I need to create a ticket (now it is in WGLC) or can I just edit =
and submit a new version?<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-w=
eight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tr=
ansform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
=C2=A0</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-w=
eight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tr=
ansform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
Either way is fine, the process is up to WG chairs (So basically do what th=
ey prefer).<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-w=
eight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tr=
ansform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
=C2=A0</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:13px;fon=
t-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;te=
xt-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>Also, will the WG State on=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.or=
g/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatrac=
ker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/</a><span>=C2=A0</span>be=
 updated to show
 WGLC automatically or do I need to do anything for that to happen?<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-w=
eight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tr=
ansform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
=C2=A0</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-w=
eight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tr=
ansform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
Chairs need to change this manually.</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:13px;fon=
t-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;te=
xt-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>Nik.<br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>
<div>On 25 July 2016 at 13:31, Natasha Rooney<span>=C2=A0</span><span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nrooney@gsma.com" target=3D"_blank">nrooney@=
gsma.com</a>&gt;</span><span>=C2=A0</span>wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-=
left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<div>Sure np! multilangcontent-03!<span><span style=3D"color:rgb(136,136,13=
6)"><br>
</span></span></div>
<div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
<span><span style=3D"color:rgb(136,136,136)"><br>
<br>
Natasha</span></span><span><br>
<br>
<br>
Natasha Rooney | Technologist, Web=C2=A0and Internet, W3C &amp; IETF | GSMA=
 |=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:nrooney@gsma.com" target=3D"_blank">nrooney@gsma.=
com</a>=C2=A0|<span>=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"tel:%2B44%20%280%29%207730%C2%A=
0219%20765" target=3D"_blank">+44 (0) 7730=C2=A0219 765</a><span>=C2=A0</sp=
an>|
 @thisNatasha | Skype:=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:nrooney@gsm.org" target=3D"_b=
lank">nrooney@gsm.org</a><br>
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On 22 Jul 2016, at 19:15, Nik Tomkinson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rfc.nik.=
tomkinson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>Natasha/Bernard,<span>=C2=A0</span><br>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>please can you make the draft version that is put forward to WGLC inst=
ead:<br>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-03<br>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>as this is the latest version as of today (which has some very useful =
additions).<br>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>Thanks,<br>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>Nik.<br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>
<div>On 22 July 2016 at 12:02, Gunnar Hellstr=C3=B6m<span>=C2=A0</span><spa=
n dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se" target=3D"=
_blank">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>&gt;</span><span>=C2=A0</span>wrote:=
<br>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-=
left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
<p>Natasha,<br>
</p>
<p>A large number of issues have been cleared up to draft-ietf-slim-negotia=
ting-human-language-04<br>
</p>
<p>Can you make that the base for the WGLC instead?<br>
</p>
<p>Or, what is the procedure for getting version -04 recognized?<br>
</p>
<p>/Gunnar<br>
</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>Den 2016-07-22 kl. 12:39, skrev Natasha Rooney:<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div>
<div>Hi all,<span>=C2=A0</span><br>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>
<div>Thanks for the meeting this week. We are pleased to announce that both=
 drafts below have entered into Working Group Last Call. We will aim to exi=
t WGLC on 12th August, which gives us three week from today.<span>=C2=A0</s=
pan><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-01=C2=A0<br>
</div>
<div>Multiple Language Content Type<br>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-01=C2=A0<br>
</div>
<div>Negotiating Human Language in Real-Time=C2=A0Communications<br>
</div>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div><b>Issues:<span>=C2=A0</span></b>if you have issues please submit thes=
e to the IETF Issue Tracker at [1]. Please feel free to discuss items on th=
e list also.=C2=A0<br>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>Thanks everyone!<br>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
<div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
<div style=3D"letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word">
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>Natasha<br>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>[1]=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/trac/newticket" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/trac/newticket</a><br>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>Natasha Rooney | Technologist, Web=C2=A0and Internet, W3C &amp; IETF |=
 GSMA |=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:nrooney@gsma.com" target=3D"_blank">nrooney@=
gsma.com</a>=C2=A0|<span>=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"tel:%2B44%20%280%29%207730=
%C2%A0219%20765" target=3D"_blank">+44
 (0) 7730=C2=A0219 765</a><span>=C2=A0</span>| @thisNatasha | Skype:=C2=A0<=
a href=3D"mailto:nrooney@gsm.org" target=3D"_blank">nrooney@gsm.org</a><br>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
</div>
<p><span style=3D"color:rgb(153,153,153)"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,=
sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(153,153=
,153)"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif">This
 email and its attachments are intended for the above named only and may be=
 confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take no action ba=
sed on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; please reply to this=
 email or call<span>=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"tel:%2B44%20207%20356%200600" t=
arget=3D"_blank">+44
 207 356 0600</a><span>=C2=A0</span>and highlight the error.</span></span><=
/span></span></span><br>
</p>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<pre><span>_______________________________________________
SLIM mailing list
<a href=3D"mailto:SLIM@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">SLIM@ietf.org</a>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a>
</span><br></pre>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
</blockquote>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<pre><span><span style=3D"color:rgb(136,136,136)">--=20
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellstr=C3=B6m
Omnitor
<a href=3D"mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se" target=3D"_blank">gunnar.hel=
lstrom@omnitor.se</a>
+46 708 204 288</span></span><br></pre>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>_______________________________________________<br>
</div>
<div>SLIM mailing list<br>
</div>
<div><a href=3D"mailto:SLIM@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">SLIM@ietf.org</a><b=
r>
</div>
<div><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim" target=3D"_blan=
k">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a><br>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>--<br>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;courier new&#39;,monospace">----------=
-------------------------------------------------------<br>Multiple Languag=
e Content Type Internet Draft:</span></pre>
<div><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-multilangco=
ntent/" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;courier new&#39;,=
monospace"></span></a><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomk=
inson-slim-multilangcontent/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.or=
g/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/</a><br>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;courier new&#39;,monospace">----------=
-------------------------------------------------------</span><br></pre>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<p><span style=3D"color:rgb(153,153,153)"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,=
sans-serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(153,153=
,153)"><span style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif">This
 email and its attachments are intended for the above named only and may be=
 confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take no action ba=
sed on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; please reply to this=
 email or call<span>=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"tel:%2B44%20207%20356%200600" t=
arget=3D"_blank">+44
 207 356 0600</a><span>=C2=A0</span>and highlight the error.</span></span><=
/span></span></span><br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
<div>--<span>=C2=A0</span><br>
</div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;courier new&#39;,monospace">----------=
-------------------------------------------------------<br>Multiple Languag=
e Content Type Internet Draft:</span></pre>
<div><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-multilangco=
ntent/" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;courier new&#39;,=
monospace"></span></a><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomk=
inson-slim-multilangcontent/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.or=
g/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/</a><br>
</div>
<pre><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;courier new&#39;,monospace">----------=
-------------------------------------------------------</span><br></pre>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><u>_______________________________________________</u><br>
</div>
<div>SLIM mailing list<br>
</div>
<div><a href=3D"mailto:SLIM@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">SLIM@ietf.org</a><b=
r>
</div>
<div><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim" target=3D"_blan=
k">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div></div></div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:11px;color:#999999"><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:#999999">This
 email and its attachments are intended for the above named only and may be=
 confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take no action ba=
sed on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; please reply to this=
 email or call <a href=3D"tel:%2B44%20207%20356%200600" value=3D"+442073560=
600" target=3D"_blank">+44 207 356 0600</a>
 and highlight the error. </span></p>
</div></div></div>

</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=
=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><pre><span =
style=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace">-------------------------------=
----------------------------------<br>Multiple Language Content Type Intern=
et Draft:</span></pre><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomk=
inson-multilangcontent/" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-family:couri=
er new,monospace"></span></a><a href=3D"http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dra=
ft-tomkinson-slim-multilangcontent/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.=
ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/</a><br><pre><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:courier new,monospace">-----------------------------------------=
------------------------</span><br></pre></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div>
</div>

--94eb2c06fb2ef5e8e9053875fd1b--


From nobody Mon Jul 25 06:50:50 2016
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Subject: [Slim] I-D Action: draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-04.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Selection of Language for Internet Media of the IETF.

        Title           : Multiple Language Content Type
        Authors         : Nik Tomkinson
                          Nathaniel Borenstein
	Filename        : draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-04.txt
	Pages           : 16
	Date            : 2016-07-25

Abstract:
   This document defines an addition to the Multipurpose Internet Mail
   Extensions (MIME) standard to make it possible to send one message
   that contains multiple language versions of the same information.
   The translations would be identified by a language tag and selected
   by the email client based on a user's language settings.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-04

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-04


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

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From nobody Mon Jul 25 08:18:02 2016
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References: <56128392-5138-487C-9D99-151BC4C13D34@gsma.com> <b5e2f8ad-a544-1649-1f4d-116e0e5dc266@omnitor.se> <CAK5rQdy9mH4K2dAVnrNdvzVKqq883bd=SKV3KfXQws2mWUrW7Q@mail.gmail.com> <9E3509FC-74F4-4B0A-9273-99E8C5EED59A@gsma.com> <CAK5rQdygEw4S7DnGFWRXazSCSJ+hJG_Cyi9M=ApPKDCEw1wXBw@mail.gmail.com>
From: Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>
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On 7/25/16 8:44 AM, Nik Tomkinson wrote:
> Thanks for doing that. I have spotted a slight inconsistency in my
> document, do I need to create a ticket (now it is in WGLC) or can I just
> edit and submit a new version?

In my experience people usually wait till the end of WGLC and then 
address all the comments, including their own.

	Thanks,
	Paul

> Also, will the WG State
> on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/ be
> updated to show WGLC automatically or do I need to do anything for that
> to happen?
>
> Nik.
>
> On 25 July 2016 at 13:31, Natasha Rooney <nrooney@gsma.com
> <mailto:nrooney@gsma.com>> wrote:
>
>     Sure np! multilangcontent-03!
>
>
>     Natasha
>
>
>     Natasha Rooney | Technologist, Web and Internet, W3C & IETF | GSMA
>     | nrooney@gsma.com <mailto:nrooney@gsma.com> | +44 (0) 7730 219 765
>     <tel:%2B44%20%280%29%207730%C2%A0219%20765> | @thisNatasha |
>     Skype: nrooney@gsm.org <mailto:nrooney@gsm.org>
>
>
>>     On 22 Jul 2016, at 19:15, Nik Tomkinson
>>     <rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail.com <mailto:rfc.nik.tomkinson@gmail.com>>
>>     wrote:
>>
>>     Natasha/Bernard,
>>
>>     please can you make the draft version that is put forward to WGLC
>>     instead:
>>
>>     draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-03
>>
>>     as this is the latest version as of today (which has some very
>>     useful additions).
>>
>>     Thanks,
>>
>>     Nik.
>>
>>     On 22 July 2016 at 12:02, Gunnar Hellström
>>     <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>>
>>     wrote:
>>
>>         Natasha,
>>
>>         A large number of issues have been cleared up to
>>         draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-04
>>
>>         Can you make that the base for the WGLC instead?
>>
>>         Or, what is the procedure for getting version -04 recognized?
>>
>>         /Gunnar
>>
>>
>>         Den 2016-07-22 kl. 12:39, skrev Natasha Rooney:
>>>         Hi all,
>>>
>>>         Thanks for the meeting this week. We are pleased to announce
>>>         that both drafts below have entered into Working Group Last
>>>         Call. We will aim to exit WGLC on 12th August, which gives us
>>>         three week from today.
>>>
>>>         draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-01
>>>         Multiple Language Content Type
>>>
>>>         draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-01
>>>         Negotiating Human Language in Real-Time Communications
>>>
>>>         *Issues: *if you have issues please submit these to the IETF
>>>         Issue Tracker at [1]. Please feel free to discuss items on
>>>         the list also.
>>>
>>>         Thanks everyone!
>>>
>>>         Natasha
>>>
>>>         [1] https://tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/trac/newticket
>>>
>>>         Natasha Rooney | Technologist, Web and Internet, W3C & IETF |
>>>         GSMA | nrooney@gsma.com <mailto:nrooney@gsma.com> | +44 (0)
>>>         7730 219 765 <tel:%2B44%20%280%29%207730%C2%A0219%20765> |
>>>         @thisNatasha | Skype: nrooney@gsm.org <mailto:nrooney@gsm.org>
>>>
>>>
>>>         This email and its attachments are intended for the above
>>>         named only and may be confidential. If they have come to you
>>>         in error you must take no action based on them, nor must you
>>>         copy or show them to anyone; please reply to this email or
>>>         call +44 207 356 0600 <tel:%2B44%20207%20356%200600> and
>>>         highlight the error.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>         _______________________________________________
>>>         SLIM mailing list
>>>         SLIM@ietf.org <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>
>>>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>>
>>         --
>>         -----------------------------------------
>>         Gunnar Hellström
>>         Omnitor
>>         gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se <mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>
>>         +46 708 204 288
>>
>>
>>         _______________________________________________
>>         SLIM mailing list
>>         SLIM@ietf.org <mailto:SLIM@ietf.org>
>>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     --
>>     -----------------------------------------------------------------
>>     Multiple Language Content Type Internet Draft:
>>     <http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-multilangcontent/>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/
>>     <http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-slim-multilangcontent/>
>>     -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     This email and its attachments are intended for the above named only
>     and may be confidential. If they have come to you in error you must
>     take no action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to
>     anyone; please reply to this email or call +44 207 356 0600
>     <tel:%2B44%20207%20356%200600> and highlight the error.
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Multiple Language Content Type Internet Draft:
>
> <http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-multilangcontent/>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent/
> <http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tomkinson-slim-multilangcontent/>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> SLIM mailing list
> SLIM@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>


From nobody Mon Jul 25 19:18:26 2016
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Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2016 19:18:02 -0700
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--001a1144083acdfddc0538808391
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As WG participants have no doubt noted, the drafts in WG last call have
been updated.  Please review the latest versions as follows:

Multiple Language Content Type
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent  (latest
version is 04, updated today, July 25)

Negotiating Human Language in Real-Time Communications
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
(latest version is 04, updated on July 21)

As announced previously, WG last call for both documents will complete on
12 August 2016.

So that we can track the comments and make sure that they are addressed,
please file issues in the SLIM Issues database at:
https://tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/trac/newticket  (A datatracker account is
required for filing).

Issues filed in the SLIM WG Issues list will automatically post to the
list.






On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 3:39 AM, Natasha Rooney <nrooney@gsma.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Thanks for the meeting this week. We are pleased to announce that both
> drafts below have entered into Working Group Last Call. We will aim to exit
> WGLC on 12th August, which gives us three week from today.
>
> draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-01
> Multiple Language Content Type
>
> draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-01
> Negotiating Human Language in Real-Time Communications
>
> *Issues: *if you have issues please submit these to the IETF Issue
> Tracker at [1]. Please feel free to discuss items on the list also.
>
> Thanks everyone!
>
> Natasha
>
> [1] https://tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/trac/newticket
>
> Natasha Rooney | Technologist, Web and Internet, W3C & IETF | GSMA |
> nrooney@gsma.com | +44 (0) 7730 219 765 | @thisNatasha | Skype:
> nrooney@gsm.org
>
>
> This email and its attachments are intended for the above named only and
> may be confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take no
> action based on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; please
> reply to this email or call +44 207 356 0600 and highlight the error.
>
> _______________________________________________
> SLIM mailing list
> SLIM@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim
>
>

--001a1144083acdfddc0538808391
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<div dir=3D"ltr">As WG participants have no doubt noted, the drafts in WG l=
ast call have been updated.=C2=A0 Please review the latest versions as foll=
ows:=C2=A0<div><br></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Multiple Lan=
guage Content Type</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px"></span=
><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/dr=
aft-ietf-slim-">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-slim-</a></span><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:12.8px">multilangcontent =C2=A0(latest version is 04, =
updated today, July 25)</span></div><div><br style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Negotiating Human Language in Real-Time=C2=A0=
Communications</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px"></span><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-=
ietf-slim-negotiating-">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-slim-negotia=
ting-</a></span><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">human-language (latest ver=
sion is 04, updated on July 21)</span></div><div><br></div><div>As announce=
d previously, WG last call for both documents will complete on 12 August 20=
16.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>So that we can track the comments and ma=
ke sure that they are addressed, please file issues in the SLIM Issues data=
base at:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/trac/newticket" tar=
get=3D"_blank" style=3D"font-size:12.8px">https://tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/tr=
ac/newticket</a>=C2=A0 (A datatracker account is required for filing).=C2=
=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Issues filed in the SLIM WG Issues list will a=
utomatically post to the list.=C2=A0</div><div><br><div><br></div><div><br>=
<div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 3:39 AM, Natasha Roo=
ney <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nrooney@gsma.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">nrooney@gsma.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
Hi all,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks for the meeting this week. We are pleased to announce that both=
 drafts below have entered into Working Group Last Call. We will aim to exi=
t WGLC on 12th August, which gives us three week from today.=C2=A0
<div><br>
draft-ietf-slim-multilangcontent-01=C2=A0<br>
Multiple Language Content Type<br>
<br>
draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language-01=C2=A0<br>
Negotiating Human Language in Real-Time=C2=A0Communications</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><b>Issues: </b>if you have issues please submit these to the IETF Issu=
e Tracker at [1]. Please feel free to discuss items on the list also.=C2=A0=
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks everyone!</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wra=
p:break-word">
<br>
Natasha<br>
<br>
[1]=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/trac/newticket" target=
=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/trac/newticket</a><br>
<br>
Natasha Rooney | Technologist, Web=C2=A0and Internet, W3C &amp; IETF | GSMA=
 |=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:nrooney@gsma.com" target=3D"_blank">nrooney@gsma.=
com</a>=C2=A0| <a href=3D"tel:%2B44%20%280%29%207730%C2%A0219%20765" value=
=3D"+447730219765" target=3D"_blank">+44 (0) 7730=C2=A0219 765</a> | @thisN=
atasha | Skype:=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:nrooney@gsm.org" target=3D"_blank">n=
rooney@gsm.org</a><br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<p style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:11px;color:#999999"><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:#999999">This
 email and its attachments are intended for the above named only and may be=
 confidential. If they have come to you in error you must take no action ba=
sed on them, nor must you copy or show them to anyone; please reply to this=
 email or call <a href=3D"tel:%2B44%20207%20356%200600" value=3D"+442073560=
600" target=3D"_blank">+44 207 356 0600</a>
 and highlight the error. </span></p>
</div>

<br>_______________________________________________<br>
SLIM mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:SLIM@ietf.org">SLIM@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a1144083acdfddc0538808391--


From nobody Tue Jul 26 17:36:03 2016
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From: Randall Gellens <rg+ietf@randy.pensive.org>
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Subject: Re: [Slim] Syntax of combination of language tag and Advisory vs Required indication in draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
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At 1:30 PM -0600 7/24/16, Doug Ewell wrote:

>  Gosh, I thought this WG was much farther along than this. It 
> appears that elementary syntax decisions are still up for 
> discussion.

Indeed, this topic seemed to be long settled until just now.  It 
hasn't changed since February 2013.

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
Sorry, no obscene fortunes.  Don't want to offend anyone.
(Now that's obscene!)


From nobody Tue Jul 26 23:39:39 2016
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Subject: Re: [Slim] Syntax of combination of language tag and Advisory vs Required indication in draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
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Den 2016-07-27 kl. 02:35, skrev Randall Gellens:
> At 1:30 PM -0600 7/24/16, Doug Ewell wrote:
>
>>  Gosh, I thought this WG was much farther along than this. It appears 
>> that elementary syntax decisions are still up for discussion.
>
> Indeed, this topic seemed to be long settled until just now.  It 
> hasn't changed since February 2013.
>
Yes, all efforts have gone to try to get a satisfying scope, so these 
details of logical and suitable syntax have not been covered.

It would be good to get some responses on the questions earlier in this 
thread.
/Gunnar


-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
+46 708 204 288


From nobody Wed Jul 27 09:54:52 2016
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Subject: Re: [Slim] Syntax of combination of language tag and Advisory vs Required indication in draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
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At 8:39 AM +0200 7/27/16, Gunnar Hellstr=F6m wrote:

>  Den 2016-07-27 kl. 02:35, skrev Randall Gellens:
>>  At 1:30 PM -0600 7/24/16, Doug Ewell wrote:
>>
>>>   Gosh, I thought this WG was much farther=20
>>> along than this. It appears that elementary=20
>>> syntax decisions are still up for discussion.
>>
>>  Indeed, this topic seemed to be long settled=20
>> until just now.  It hasn't changed since=20
>> February 2013.
>>
>  Yes, all efforts have gone to try to get a=20
> satisfying scope, so these details of logical=20
> and suitable syntax have not been covered.
>
>  It would be good to get some responses on the=20
> questions earlier in this thread.
>  /Gunnar

Hi Gunnar,

I did respond to the issues you raised.  I've=20
responded several times, most recently on 22 July:

At 1:07 PM -0700 7/22/16, Randall Gellens wrote:
>  Personally, I'm not convinced that it's=20
> necessary to modify the syntax so that people=20
> who haven't read the spec will not be confused=20
> in one particular way.  This particular syntax=20
> was not my idea and I'm not stuck on it, but it=20
> was suggested by people with very long=20
> experience in HTTP and SMTP and SIP, so I have=20
> to think it can't be all that confusing.  I=20
> happen to have some experience in these areas=20
> as well and never thought it was confusing in=20
> the context of this draft.
>
>  I would strongly object to replacing it with a=20
> complex scheme as Gunnar proposed.  I might not=20
> object if the group wanted to replace it with=20
> something just as simple as what we have now,=20
> e.g., using a character other than an asterisk=20
> ("a=3Dhumintlang-send:en?"), or using an asterisk=20
> in lieu of a language tag=20
> ("a=3Dhumintlang-send:*"), but would have to ask=20
> if such a change is worth it, or if someone=20
> else wouldn't come up with an equal reason to=20
> not do it that way.

To make a change, we would need WG consensus on a=20
specific proposal.  Probably the best way to=20
proceed is to first determine if others in the WG=20
agree that there is a problem with the current=20
syntax.  If the group feels there is a problem,=20
then we can have one or a small number of=20
specific proposal and see if there is consensus=20
to proceed.  If the group does not feel there is=20
a problem, then we do not make a change.

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
Majority: That quality that distinguishes a crime from a law.


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From: Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@alum.mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [Slim] Syntax of combination of language tag and Advisory vs Required indication in draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
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On 7/27/16 12:54 PM, Randall Gellens wrote:

> To make a change, we would need WG consensus on a specific proposal.
> Probably the best way to proceed is to first determine if others in the
> WG agree that there is a problem with the current syntax.  If the group
> feels there is a problem, then we can have one or a small number of
> specific proposal and see if there is consensus to proceed.  If the
> group does not feel there is a problem, then we do not make a change.

Currently the syntax is only loosely defined in text. At the very least 
is needs to be fully defined. IMO this should be done using the template 
for attribute definitions introduced in rfc4566bis.

Also, as Gunnar already mentioned, the semantics are not clear when "*" 
is present. Is "*" valid with both -send and -recv? If so, it must mean 
something different in each.

Further, does the "*" only qualify the language and direction to which 
it is attached, or does it qualify the overall negotiation of the 
associated media stream, or of the call as a whole?

And how does this relate to O/A? What is the point of indicating 
optionality in an *answer*? At that point the media stream is already 
set up. (Or rejected.)

Setting aside q-values for now, Gunnar's proposal isn't significantly 
more complex than the current proposal. It does detach the "*" from the 
language indication. Whether that is a good thing or not depends on the 
resolution of my issues above. What his proposal does is make the 
indication of multiple languages more concise. It *may*  complicate the 
specification of O/A behavior.

	Thanks,
	Paul


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Subject: Re: [Slim] Syntax of combination of language tag and Advisory vs Required indication in draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
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At 1:20 PM -0400 7/27/16, Paul Kyzivat wrote:

>  On 7/27/16 12:54 PM, Randall Gellens wrote:
>
>>  To make a change, we would need WG consensus on a specific proposal.
>>  Probably the best way to proceed is to first determine if others in the
>>  WG agree that there is a problem with the current syntax.  If the group
>>  feels there is a problem, then we can have one or a small number of
>>  specific proposal and see if there is consensus to proceed.  If the
>>  group does not feel there is a problem, then we do not make a change.
>
>  Currently the syntax is only loosely defined in text. At the very 
> least is needs to be fully defined. IMO this should be done using 
> the template for attribute definitions introduced in rfc4566bis.

Here is the current text:

    The mechanism for indicating this preference is that, in an offer, if
    the last character of any of the 'humintlang-recv' or 'humintlang-
    send' values is an asterisk, this indicates a request to not fail the
    call (similar to SIP Accept-Language syntax).  Either way, the called
    party MAY ignore this, e.g., for the emergency services use case, a
    PSAP will likely not fail the call.

In what way is this confusing or vague or incompletely specified? 
I'd be happy to delete the parenthesized aside "(similar to SIP 
Accept-Language syntax)" as that seems to be wrong and/or confusing. 
Since we're in WGLC we'd need to open a ticket for this.

>  Also, as Gunnar already mentioned, the semantics are not clear when 
> "*" is present. Is "*" valid with both -send and -recv? If so, it 
> must mean something different in each.

I'm confused as to where the confusion is coming from.  My reading of 
the text is that it is very clear that an asterisk is permitted in 
any value of either attribute in any media, and that it is a binary 
meaning: if the asterisk is present anywhere, it means "please do not 
fail the call even if no matches can be made."  I don't see the basis 
for the idea that "it must mean something different in each."

>
>  Further, does the "*" only qualify the language and direction to 
> which it is attached, or does it qualify the overall negotiation of 
> the associated media stream, or of the call as a whole?

Again, I'm puzzled.  My reading of the text is that it clearly says 
an asterisk as the last character of ANY value (of any media in 
either direction) applies to the entire dialog.

>
>  And how does this relate to O/A? What is the point of indicating 
> optionality in an *answer*? At that point the media stream is 
> already set up. (Or rejected.)

Again, the text seems very clear to me, so I don't understand why 
there is any confusion.  It says "in an offer."  Obviously it doesn't 
make sense in an answer.

>  Setting aside q-values for now, Gunnar's proposal isn't 
> significantly more complex than the current proposal. It does 
> detach the "*" from the language indication. Whether that is a good 
> thing or not depends on the resolution of my issues above. What his 
> proposal does is make the indication of multiple languages more 
> concise. It *may*  complicate the specification of O/A behavior.

As I see it, it introduces a level of complexity that we don't need. 
As I've said several times, neither the idea for a means to indicate 
a preference to not fail the call, nor the asterisk syntax to 
indicate it, were my own; I have no personal stake in it, but I do 
want to get this draft completed.  The asterisk has been there since 
early 2013 with no one finding it confusing.  If the group wants to 
change it now, that's fine, but I want to move forward and get the 
draft done.

-- 
Randall Gellens
Opinions are personal;    facts are suspect;    I speak for myself only
-------------- Randomly selected tag: ---------------
"Contrariwise," continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might
be, and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's
logic!"


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Subject: Re: [Slim] Syntax of combination of language tag and Advisory vs Required indication in draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
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Den 2016-07-28 kl. 01:19, skrev Randall Gellens:
> At 1:20 PM -0400 7/27/16, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
>
>>  On 7/27/16 12:54 PM, Randall Gellens wrote:
>>
>>>  To make a change, we would need WG consensus on a specific proposal.
>>>  Probably the best way to proceed is to first determine if others in 
>>> the
>>>  WG agree that there is a problem with the current syntax.  If the 
>>> group
>>>  feels there is a problem, then we can have one or a small number of
>>>  specific proposal and see if there is consensus to proceed. If the
>>>  group does not feel there is a problem, then we do not make a change.
>>
>>  Currently the syntax is only loosely defined in text. At the very 
>> least is needs to be fully defined. IMO this should be done using the 
>> template for attribute definitions introduced in rfc4566bis.
>
> Here is the current text:
>
>    The mechanism for indicating this preference is that, in an offer, if
>    the last character of any of the 'humintlang-recv' or 'humintlang-
>    send' values is an asterisk, this indicates a request to not fail the
>    call (similar to SIP Accept-Language syntax).  Either way, the called
>    party MAY ignore this, e.g., for the emergency services use case, a
>    PSAP will likely not fail the call.
>
> In what way is this confusing or vague or incompletely specified? I'd 
> be happy to delete the parenthesized aside "(similar to SIP 
> Accept-Language syntax)" as that seems to be wrong and/or confusing. 
> Since we're in WGLC we'd need to open a ticket for this.
GH: We clearly need a proper syntax definition. It needs to be clearly 
seen for the parsing algorithm that there is a need to detach an 
optional parameter at the end of the language tag ( if this syntax is 
maintained ) and it needs to be explicitly stated if it is allowed to 
include this parameter also in the answer, even if it is meaningless.

The draft has the confusion clearly stated. In 6.2 it is first said " 
Each value MUST be a language tag per RFC 5646"
Then it is said: "In an offer, each language tag value MAY have an 
asterisk appended as
    the last character (after the registry value)."
So, the value is both defined to be only the language tag and the 
language tag with the asterisk appended that needs to be detached to get 
the value. I hope you see the lack of stringency and that you want to 
get this clearly defined.

And, yes, since we discovered that it has no similarity to the 
Accept-Language syntax, that paranthesis must be deleted.  The fact that 
it has survived so long may indicate that people (as in my case) have 
bothered about more fundamental factors in this draft than the proposed 
syntax for the dont-fail-the-call feature that is anyway kind of default.
>
>>  Also, as Gunnar already mentioned, the semantics are not clear when 
>> "*" is present. Is "*" valid with both -send and -recv? If so, it 
>> must mean something different in each.
>
> I'm confused as to where the confusion is coming from.  My reading of 
> the text is that it is very clear that an asterisk is permitted in any 
> value of either attribute in any media, and that it is a binary 
> meaning: if the asterisk is present anywhere, it means "please do not 
> fail the call even if no matches can be made."  I don't see the basis 
> for the idea that "it must mean something different in each."
>
>>
>>  Further, does the "*" only qualify the language and direction to 
>> which it is attached, or does it qualify the overall negotiation of 
>> the associated media stream, or of the call as a whole?
>
> Again, I'm puzzled.  My reading of the text is that it clearly says an 
> asterisk as the last character of ANY value (of any media in either 
> direction) applies to the entire dialog.
>
>>
>>  And how does this relate to O/A? What is the point of indicating 
>> optionality in an *answer*? At that point the media stream is already 
>> set up. (Or rejected.)
>
> Again, the text seems very clear to me, so I don't understand why 
> there is any confusion.  It says "in an offer."  Obviously it doesn't 
> make sense in an answer.
GH: It is true that you find the answers on these three questions in the 
text. But there is no logic behind the answers. Usually, when you hook a 
parameter to an attribute value, the parameter has a relation to just 
that value. But here there is no such relation. The parameter is a 
session parameter that apparently means "do not fail the call because of 
language matching reasons", and is not specific for language, media and 
direction, but it is said that it can be hooked on to a language and 
media and direction specific attribute value.
I recently also felt a reason to ask you what the intention was and got 
that interpretation confirmed. It is just so unusual placement of a 
parameter that it is worth sorting out the syntax for this reason.

>
>>  Setting aside q-values for now, Gunnar's proposal isn't 
>> significantly more complex than the current proposal. It does detach 
>> the "*" from the language indication. Whether that is a good thing or 
>> not depends on the resolution of my issues above. What his proposal 
>> does is make the indication of multiple languages more concise. It 
>> *may*  complicate the specification of O/A behavior.
>
> As I see it, it introduces a level of complexity that we don't need. 
> As I've said several times, neither the idea for a means to indicate a 
> preference to not fail the call, nor the asterisk syntax to indicate 
> it, were my own; I have no personal stake in it, but I do want to get 
> this draft completed.  The asterisk has been there since early 2013 
> with no one finding it confusing.  If the group wants to change it 
> now, that's fine, but I want to move forward and get the draft done.
GH: Since the most useful default value is to not fail the call on 
language matching reasons, we should probably swap the meaning of the 
parameter to mean "I suggest that you fail the call if you cannot match 
my languages". Then the most common implementations do not need to set it.
As you have described it, it is used as a session attribute. So then it 
should really be specified as a session attribute to not cause 
confusion. E.g. "a=humintlang: reject"  on session level in the offer.  
If also the other value should have an explicit value, it could be "accept".

GH: I see much more use of a parameter value for highest preferred 
language to be attached to the media and direction and language. A plus 
character "+" would be suitable, and a way to attach it to the 
language(s) that are most highly preferred to be used in the session. 
Not more than one per media and direction would be allowed. If more than 
one for the same direction but different media are specified, it means a 
strong preference for getting both these languages presented 
simultaneously ( e.g. see the person who is speaking, because you have 
very good use of lip-reading. )  Not satisfying these preference 
indications should not cause media or call to be rejected, but only used 
as a preference indication for the other party to try to match. I 
hesitate to propose the syntax of a character appended to the language 
tag, but in this case the placement of the parameter there would at 
least be the logical place.


GH: I repeat the questions I placed recently, with my indications of 
where we are now with them.
*1. The Advisory/Required notation and default.**
*As the text describes the "Advisory" feature, it is a session feature, 
not bound to any specific language or media or direction. So, hooking it 
on to a specific language, media and direction is not logical. And there 
is strong motivation in the text about why the lack of the asterisk 
should not be taken for a "Required" indication. So the "Advisory" state 
is kind of default even when that is what the only value of the feature 
parameter indicates. The logic is quite fuzzy and would need an 
improvement. Most logical would be a session level attribute with "fail 
if no language match is found" as value and "do not fail" as default.
<Discussed above including a session level proposal>
*
**2. Inconvenient notation for majority of cases.*
I think most developers will find the need to specify the majority of 
cases in two very equal attributes (one for send and one for receive) a 
bit space-consuming and awkward. It would feel more natural and save 
characters if we had a common language attribute with a parameter value 
for the direction with send and recv and both as possible values, and 
both as default.
( I have already got this reaction from developers)
<Not covered, no answer yet>

*3. Character-expensive notation for call-centers?*
How do we foresee the use of humintlang by multi-language call centers 
when calling out? Will they include a long list of languages, or will 
they call without sdp, and expect the answering part to start providing 
language preferences? If they will provide a long list, it will take 
about 40 characters overhead in SDP per language compared to the 
comma-separated syntax of Accept-Language (if also issue 2 above is 
taken into consideration ).
Should we bother about character-economy in sdp and change to the 
syntax-style of Accept-Language?
*<*No answer yet>
*
**4. Accept-Language style notation can be simplified*
When I copied the whole Accept-Language syntax from RFC 3261, there were 
some reactions that it was too complex. It is of course possible to 
delete elements in that syntax and still maintain the structure.
This would be a valid subset ( if we do not do anything to issues 1 and 
2 above):

humintlang-send  =  "a=humintlang-send" HCOLON
                      [ language *(COMMA language) ]
language         =  language-range
language-range   =  ( ( 1*8ALPHA ) / "*" )

And similarly for humintlang-recv
<This gets rid of the complexity, but still places the do-not-fail parameter on the media level, and that requires us to define a meaning for that placement>

*5. Place for relative preference notation**
*Even if the notation for a relative preference across the session is 
not included in this draft, it would be good to have a prepared place 
for it in the notation. It is best linked to a language and a media and 
a direction. So it would suit with a notation like the current specified 
syntax of the use of the asterisk, but with another character. Or as a 
parameter to a language.
In my view, the relative preference is far more important than the 
Advisory/Required feature, that is recommended to have so weak influence 
on call completion decisions.
<Discussed above, with a placement, a character, but not a complete 
syntax proposal.>


Regards
Gunnar


---------------------

-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
+46 708 204 288


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    Den 2016-07-28 kl. 01:19, skrev Randall Gellens:<br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:p06240604d3beee4dd9d7@[99.111.97.136]"
      type="cite">At 1:20 PM -0400 7/27/16, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
      <br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite"> On 7/27/16 12:54 PM, Randall Gellens
        wrote:
        <br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type="cite"> To make a change, we would need WG
          consensus on a specific proposal.
          <br>
           Probably the best way to proceed is to first determine if
          others in the
          <br>
           WG agree that there is a problem with the current syntax.  If
          the group
          <br>
           feels there is a problem, then we can have one or a small
          number of
          <br>
           specific proposal and see if there is consensus to proceed. 
          If the
          <br>
           group does not feel there is a problem, then we do not make a
          change.
          <br>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
         Currently the syntax is only loosely defined in text. At the
        very least is needs to be fully defined. IMO this should be done
        using the template for attribute definitions introduced in
        rfc4566bis.
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      Here is the current text:
      <br>
      <br>
         The mechanism for indicating this preference is that, in an
      offer, if
      <br>
         the last character of any of the 'humintlang-recv' or
      'humintlang-
      <br>
         send' values is an asterisk, this indicates a request to not
      fail the
      <br>
         call (similar to SIP Accept-Language syntax).  Either way, the
      called
      <br>
         party MAY ignore this, e.g., for the emergency services use
      case, a
      <br>
         PSAP will likely not fail the call.
      <br>
      <br>
      In what way is this confusing or vague or incompletely specified?
      I'd be happy to delete the parenthesized aside "(similar to SIP
      Accept-Language syntax)" as that seems to be wrong and/or
      confusing. Since we're in WGLC we'd need to open a ticket for
      this.
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    GH: We clearly need a proper syntax definition. It needs to be
    clearly seen for the parsing algorithm that there is a need to
    detach an optional parameter at the end of the language tag ( if
    this syntax is maintained ) and it needs to be explicitly stated if
    it is allowed to include this parameter also in the answer, even if
    it is meaningless. <br>
    <br>
    The draft has the confusion clearly stated. In 6.2 it is first said
    " Each value MUST be a language tag per RFC 5646"<br>
    Then it is said: "In an offer, each language tag value MAY have an
    asterisk appended as<br>
       the last character (after the registry value)."<br>
    So, the value is both defined to be only the language tag and the
    language tag with the asterisk appended that needs to be detached to
    get the value. I hope you see the lack of stringency and that you
    want to get this clearly defined. <br>
    <br>
    And, yes, since we discovered that it has no similarity to the
    Accept-Language syntax, that paranthesis must be deleted.  The fact
    that it has survived so long may indicate that people (as in my
    case) have bothered about more fundamental factors in this draft
    than the proposed syntax for the dont-fail-the-call feature that is
    anyway kind of default. <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:p06240604d3beee4dd9d7@[99.111.97.136]"
      type="cite">
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite"> Also, as Gunnar already mentioned, the
        semantics are not clear when "*" is present. Is "*" valid with
        both -send and -recv? If so, it must mean something different in
        each.
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      I'm confused as to where the confusion is coming from.  My reading
      of the text is that it is very clear that an asterisk is permitted
      in any value of either attribute in any media, and that it is a
      binary meaning: if the asterisk is present anywhere, it means
      "please do not fail the call even if no matches can be made."  I
      don't see the basis for the idea that "it must mean something
      different in each."
      <br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <br>
         Further, does the "*" only qualify the language and direction
        to which it is attached, or does it qualify the overall
        negotiation of the associated media stream, or of the call as a
        whole?
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      Again, I'm puzzled.  My reading of the text is that it clearly
      says an asterisk as the last character of ANY value (of any media
      in either direction) applies to the entire dialog.
      <br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <br>
         And how does this relate to O/A? What is the point of
        indicating optionality in an *answer*? At that point the media
        stream is already set up. (Or rejected.)
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      Again, the text seems very clear to me, so I don't understand why
      there is any confusion.  It says "in an offer."  Obviously it
      doesn't make sense in an answer.
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    GH: It is true that you find the answers on these three questions in
    the text. But there is no logic behind the answers. Usually, when
    you hook a parameter to an attribute value, the parameter has a
    relation to just that value. But here there is no such relation. The
    parameter is a session parameter that apparently means "do not fail
    the call because of language matching reasons", and is not specific
    for language, media and direction, but it is said that it can be
    hooked on to a language and media and direction specific attribute
    value. <br>
    I recently also felt a reason to ask you what the intention was and
    got that interpretation confirmed. It is just so unusual placement
    of a parameter that it is worth sorting out the syntax for this
    reason.<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:p06240604d3beee4dd9d7@[99.111.97.136]"
      type="cite">
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite"> Setting aside q-values for now, Gunnar's
        proposal isn't significantly more complex than the current
        proposal. It does detach the "*" from the language indication.
        Whether that is a good thing or not depends on the resolution of
        my issues above. What his proposal does is make the indication
        of multiple languages more concise. It *may*  complicate the
        specification of O/A behavior.
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      As I see it, it introduces a level of complexity that we don't
      need. As I've said several times, neither the idea for a means to
      indicate a preference to not fail the call, nor the asterisk
      syntax to indicate it, were my own; I have no personal stake in
      it, but I do want to get this draft completed.  The asterisk has
      been there since early 2013 with no one finding it confusing.  If
      the group wants to change it now, that's fine, but I want to move
      forward and get the draft done.
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    GH: Since the most useful default value is to not fail the call on
    language matching reasons, we should probably swap the meaning of
    the parameter to mean "I suggest that you fail the call if you
    cannot match my languages". Then the most common implementations do
    not need to set it. <br>
    As you have described it, it is used as a session attribute. So then
    it should really be specified as a session attribute to not cause
    confusion. E.g. "a=humintlang: reject"  on session level in the
    offer.  If also the other value should have an explicit value, it
    could be "accept".<br>
    <br>
    GH: I see much more use of a parameter value for highest preferred
    language to be attached to the media and direction and language. A
    plus character "+" would be suitable, and a way to attach it to the
    language(s) that are most highly preferred to be used in the
    session. Not more than one per media and direction would be allowed.
    If more than one for the same direction but different media are
    specified, it means a strong preference for getting both these
    languages presented simultaneously ( e.g. see the person who is
    speaking, because you have very good use of lip-reading. )  Not
    satisfying these preference indications should not cause media or
    call to be rejected, but only used as a preference indication for
    the other party to try to match. I hesitate to propose the syntax of
    a character appended to the language tag, but in this case the
    placement of the parameter there would at least be the logical
    place.  <br>
    <br>
     <br>
    GH: I repeat the questions I placed recently, with my indications of
    where we are now with them.<br>
    <b>1. The Advisory/Required notation and default.</b><b><br>
    </b>As the text describes the "Advisory" feature, it is a session
    feature, not bound to any specific language or media or direction.
    So, hooking it on to a specific language, media and direction is not
    logical. And there is strong motivation in the text about why the
    lack of the asterisk should not be taken for a "Required"
    indication. So the "Advisory" state is kind of default even when
    that is what the only value of the feature parameter indicates. The
    logic is quite fuzzy and would need an improvement. Most logical
    would be a session level attribute with "fail if no language match
    is found" as value and "do not fail" as default.  <br>
    &lt;Discussed above including a session level proposal&gt;<br>
    <b><br>
    </b><b>2. Inconvenient notation for majority of cases.</b><br>
    I think most developers will find the need to specify the majority
    of cases in two very equal attributes (one for send and one for
    receive) a bit space-consuming and awkward. It would feel more
    natural and save characters if we had a common language attribute
    with a parameter value for the direction with send and recv and both
    as possible values, and both as default.  <br>
    ( I have already got this reaction from developers)<br>
    &lt;Not covered, no answer yet&gt;<br>
    <br>
    <b>3. Character-expensive notation for call-centers?</b><br>
    How do we foresee the use of humintlang by multi-language call
    centers when calling out? Will they include a long list of
    languages, or will they call without sdp, and expect the answering
    part to start providing language preferences? If they will provide a
    long list, it will take about 40 characters overhead in SDP per
    language compared to the comma-separated syntax of Accept-Language
    (if also issue 2 above is taken into consideration ). <br>
    Should we bother about character-economy in sdp and change to the
    syntax-style of Accept-Language? <br>
    <b>&lt;</b>No answer yet&gt;<br>
    <b><br>
    </b><b>4. Accept-Language style notation can be simplified</b><br>
    When I copied the whole Accept-Language syntax from RFC 3261, there
    were some reactions that it was too complex. It is of course
    possible to delete elements in that syntax and still maintain the
    structure. <br>
    This would be a valid subset ( if we do not do anything to issues 1
    and 2 above):<br>
    <pre style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 1; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; white-space: pre-wrap;">humintlang-send  =  "a=humintlang-send" HCOLON
                     [ language *(COMMA language) ]
language         =  language-range
language-range   =  ( ( 1*8ALPHA ) / "*" )

And similarly for humintlang-recv 
&lt;This gets rid of the complexity, but still places the do-not-fail parameter on the media level, and that requires us to define a meaning for that placement&gt;
</pre>
    <b>5. Place for relative preference notation</b><b><br>
    </b>Even if the notation for a relative preference across the
    session is not included in this draft, it would be good to have a
    prepared place for it in the notation. It is best linked to a
    language and a media and a direction. So it would suit with a
    notation like the current specified syntax of the use of the
    asterisk, but with another character. Or as a parameter to a
    language. <br>
    In my view, the relative preference is far more important than the
    Advisory/Required feature, that is recommended to have so weak
    influence on call completion decisions. <br>
    &lt;Discussed above, with a placement, a character, but not a
    complete syntax proposal.&gt; <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    Regards<br>
    Gunnar<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    ---------------------<br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar Hellström
Omnitor
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se">gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se</a>
+46 708 204 288</pre>
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Subject: Re: [Slim] Syntax of combination of language tag and Advisory vs Required indication in draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
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Inline

On 7/27/16 7:19 PM, Randall Gellens wrote:
> At 1:20 PM -0400 7/27/16, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
>
>>  On 7/27/16 12:54 PM, Randall Gellens wrote:
>>
>>>  To make a change, we would need WG consensus on a specific proposal.
>>>  Probably the best way to proceed is to first determine if others in the
>>>  WG agree that there is a problem with the current syntax.  If the group
>>>  feels there is a problem, then we can have one or a small number of
>>>  specific proposal and see if there is consensus to proceed.  If the
>>>  group does not feel there is a problem, then we do not make a change.
>>
>>  Currently the syntax is only loosely defined in text. At the very
>> least is needs to be fully defined. IMO this should be done using the
>> template for attribute definitions introduced in rfc4566bis.
>
> Here is the current text:
>
>    The mechanism for indicating this preference is that, in an offer, if
>    the last character of any of the 'humintlang-recv' or 'humintlang-
>    send' values is an asterisk, this indicates a request to not fail the
>    call (similar to SIP Accept-Language syntax).  Either way, the called
>    party MAY ignore this, e.g., for the emergency services use case, a
>    PSAP will likely not fail the call.
>
> In what way is this confusing or vague or incompletely specified?

There is no ABNF syntax for the value.

> I'd be
> happy to delete the parenthesized aside "(similar to SIP Accept-Language
> syntax)" as that seems to be wrong and/or confusing. Since we're in WGLC
> we'd need to open a ticket for this.

Since there is no apparent relationship to Accept-Language I agree this 
should be removed.

>>  Also, as Gunnar already mentioned, the semantics are not clear when
>> "*" is present. Is "*" valid with both -send and -recv? If so, it must
>> mean something different in each.
>
> I'm confused as to where the confusion is coming from.  My reading of
> the text is that it is very clear that an asterisk is permitted in any
> value of either attribute in any media, and that it is a binary meaning:
> if the asterisk is present anywhere, it means "please do not fail the
> call even if no matches can be made."  I don't see the basis for the
> idea that "it must mean something different in each."

I failed to notice the reference to "in an offer" when making my prior 
reply. So some of my comments are invalid.

But this is still confusing to me. I guess you are assuming that the 
answerer might "fail the call" due to the presence of these attributes, 
and the * is a request not to do that. But I think this deserves more 
discussion of what actions the answerer might take and under what 
circumstances. Failing the call is pretty extreme. It is also possible 
to reject a media stream. Is the * also intended to affect that?

>>  Further, does the "*" only qualify the language and direction to
>> which it is attached, or does it qualify the overall negotiation of
>> the associated media stream, or of the call as a whole?
>
> Again, I'm puzzled.  My reading of the text is that it clearly says an
> asterisk as the last character of ANY value (of any media in either
> direction) applies to the entire dialog.

Yes, I realize it says that. But I am confused because that makes little 
sense to me. If it doesn't pertain to the particular value it is 
attached to, then the syntax seems inappropriate to the task. And 
further, it could be useful to have it apply to a particular value.

To be specific, is there any semantic difference between:

1)    a=humintlang-send:es
       a=humintlang-send:en*

2)    a=humintlang-send:es*
       a=humintlang-send:en


>>  And how does this relate to O/A? What is the point of indicating
>> optionality in an *answer*? At that point the media stream is already
>> set up. (Or rejected.)
>
> Again, the text seems very clear to me, so I don't understand why there
> is any confusion.  It says "in an offer."  Obviously it doesn't make
> sense in an answer.

Is it *allowed* in an answer, even if it doesn't make sense?

>>  Setting aside q-values for now, Gunnar's proposal isn't significantly
>> more complex than the current proposal. It does detach the "*" from
>> the language indication. Whether that is a good thing or not depends
>> on the resolution of my issues above. What his proposal does is make
>> the indication of multiple languages more concise. It *may*
>> complicate the specification of O/A behavior.
>
> As I see it, it introduces a level of complexity that we don't need. As
> I've said several times, neither the idea for a means to indicate a
> preference to not fail the call, nor the asterisk syntax to indicate it,
> were my own; I have no personal stake in it, but I do want to get this
> draft completed.  The asterisk has been there since early 2013 with no
> one finding it confusing.  If the group wants to change it now, that's
> fine, but I want to move forward and get the draft done.

When working on drafts, I find that it is often counterproductive to 
raise issues about details until one has agreement on the concepts. 
Since there has been raging controversy over concepts (in particular, 
relationships between languages in different media) I didn't want to 
distract from that.

Now that we are past that, it is important to get the more detailed 
aspects right.

Since this draft defines new SDP attributes the SDP directorate will be 
asked to review it. I happen to be on the directorate, and so can 
anticipate what issues will be raised. As part of rfc4566bis there is an 
effort to tighten up and standardize the way attribute syntax is 
defined. You can look at rfc4566bis to see how that is now being done. 
In involves ABNF syntax for the attribute value.

Also, it is now expected that every new attribute definition come with 
specific language defining offer/answer behavior. That also needs to be 
present.

Having raised these issues, I didn't bother (yet) raising lesser issues. 
I will do a complete, nit-picky, review once the more significant issues 
are sorted out.

I realize you want this to be done. But it isn't done yet.

	Thanks,
	Paul




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From: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org>
To: "=?UTF-8?Q?Gunnar=5FHellstr=C3=B6m?=" <gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se>, slim@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Slim] Syntax of combination of language tag and Advisory vs Required indication in draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
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Gunnar Hellstr=C3=B6m wrote:=0A=0A> This would be a valid subset ( if we do=
 not do anything to issues 1=0A> and 2 above):=0A>=0A> humintlang-send  =3D=
  "a=3Dhumintlang-send" HCOLON=0A>                      [ language *(COMMA =
language) ]=0A> language         =3D  language-range=0A> language-range   =
=3D  ( ( 1*8ALPHA ) / "*" )=0A=0ASpecifying language-range as 1*8ALPHA conf=
licts with the SHOULD and=0ARECOMMENDED wording in Section 6.2: =0A=0A> Eac=
h value MUST be a language tag per RFC 5646 [RFC5646].  RFC 5646=0A> descri=
bes mechanisms for matching language tags.  While RFC 5646=0A> provides a m=
echanism accommodating increasingly fine-grained=0A> distinctions, in the i=
nterest of maximum interoperability for real-=0A> time interactive communic=
ations, each 'humintlang-send' and=0A> 'humintlang-recv' value SHOULD be re=
stricted to the largest=0A> granularity of language tags; in other words, i=
t is RECOMMENDED to=0A> specify only a Primary-subtag and NOT to include su=
btags (e.g., for=0A> region or dialect) unless the languages might be mutua=
lly=0A> incomprehensible without them.=0A=0AThere are legitimate use cases =
for specifying additional subtags. If a=0Acaller requests a text stream in =
Chinese (or Serbian), she might need to=0Aspecify Traditional vs. Simplifie=
d Chinese (or Cyrillic vs. Latin=0Ascript), or risk losing comprehensibilit=
y.=0A=0AAdditionally, 1ALPHA and 4ALPHA are pointless as part of this rule,=
=0Asince they cannot be valid BCP 47 tags.=0A=0AA better and simpler syntax=
 would be:=0A=0Ahumintlang-send  =3D  "a=3Dhumintlang-send" HCOLON=0A      =
               [ language *(COMMA language) ]=0Alanguage         =3D  Langu=
age-Tag=0A=0Awhere Language-Tag is defined in RFC 5646, Section 2.1.=0A=0AA=
ny asterisks or plus signs or what have you, if agreed upon, could then=0Ab=
e added to the humintlang-send and/or humintlang-recv definitions.=0A=0AAs =
a side note, while it is true that "RFC 5646 provides a mechanism=0Aaccommo=
dating increasingly fine-grained distinctions," it is a common=0Amyth that =
it *encourages* such lengthy tags. There is a section in RFC=0A5646 dealing=
 with the principle "tag content wisely," which has to do in=0Apart with om=
itting unnecessary subtags.=0A=0A--=0ADoug Ewell | Thornton, CO, US | ewell=
ic.org


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Subject: Re: [Slim] Syntax of combination of language tag and Advisory vs Required indication in draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
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Den 2016-07-28 kl. 21:02, skrev Doug Ewell:
> Gunnar HellstrÃ¶m wrote:
>
>> This would be a valid subset ( if we do not do anything to issues 1
>> and 2 above):
>>
>> humintlang-send  =  "a=humintlang-send" HCOLON
>>                       [ language *(COMMA language) ]
>> language         =  language-range
>> language-range   =  ( ( 1*8ALPHA ) / "*" )
> Specifying language-range as 1*8ALPHA conflicts with the SHOULD and
> RECOMMENDED wording in Section 6.2:
>
>> Each value MUST be a language tag per RFC 5646 [RFC5646].  RFC 5646
>> describes mechanisms for matching language tags.  While RFC 5646
>> provides a mechanism accommodating increasingly fine-grained
>> distinctions, in the interest of maximum interoperability for real-
>> time interactive communications, each 'humintlang-send' and
>> 'humintlang-recv' value SHOULD be restricted to the largest
>> granularity of language tags; in other words, it is RECOMMENDED to
>> specify only a Primary-subtag and NOT to include subtags (e.g., for
>> region or dialect) unless the languages might be mutually
>> incomprehensible without them.
> There are legitimate use cases for specifying additional subtags. If a
> caller requests a text stream in Chinese (or Serbian), she might need to
> specify Traditional vs. Simplified Chinese (or Cyrillic vs. Latin
> script), or risk losing comprehensibility.
>
> Additionally, 1ALPHA and 4ALPHA are pointless as part of this rule,
> since they cannot be valid BCP 47 tags.
>
> A better and simpler syntax would be:
>
> humintlang-send  =  "a=humintlang-send" HCOLON
>                       [ language *(COMMA language) ]
> language         =  Language-Tag
>
> where Language-Tag is defined in RFC 5646, Section 2.1.
>
> Any asterisks or plus signs or what have you, if agreed upon, could then
> be added to the humintlang-send and/or humintlang-recv definitions.
GH: Thanks for the correction.
>
> As a side note, while it is true that "RFC 5646 provides a mechanism
> accommodating increasingly fine-grained distinctions," it is a common
> myth that it *encourages* such lengthy tags. There is a section in RFC
> 5646 dealing with the principle "tag content wisely," which has to do in
> part with omitting unnecessary subtags.
GH: We discussed that there is a way to indicate translated in a subtag 
and that it may be desirable to include such information sometimes. Do 
you regard that still allowable?
>
> --
> Doug Ewell | Thornton, CO, US | ewellic.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> SLIM mailing list
> SLIM@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/slim

-- 
-----------------------------------------
Gunnar HellstrÃ¶m
Omnitor
gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se
+46 708 204 288


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Subject: Re: [Slim] Syntax of combination of language tag and Advisory vs Required indication in draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-language
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Gunnar Hellstr=C3=B6m wrote:=0A=0A>> As a side note, while it is true that =
"RFC 5646 provides a mechanism=0A>> accommodating increasingly fine-grained=
 distinctions," it is a common=0A>> myth that it *encourages* such lengthy =
tags. There is a section in=0A>> RFC 5646 dealing with the principle "tag c=
ontent wisely," which has=0A>> to do in part with omitting unnecessary subt=
ags.=0A>=0A> GH: We discussed that there is a way to indicate translated in=
 a=0A> subtag and that it may be desirable to include such information=0A> =
sometimes. Do you regard that still allowable?=0A=0ASure. A tag for "Englis=
h, translated from the original Russian" would be=0A"en-t-ru". That tag, to=
o, would not be permitted in SLIM applications if=0Ait defined a language t=
ag as 1*8ALPHA.=0A=0AOne must be careful not to go too far either way. Subt=
ags that add=0Agenuine value should usually be included in a tag. Subtags t=
hat restate=0Athe obvious or identify details that don't matter (a classic =
example is=0A"ja-JP") should usually be excluded.=0A=0ABecause of the myth =
that BCP 47 encourages overspecified tags, groups=0Alike SLIM that write BC=
P 47-compliant specs tend to add their own health=0Awarnings about keeping =
tags short; but excessive restrictions can make=0Ait impossible to express =
details like "Serbian in Cyrillic" and=0A"Simplified Chinese" and dilute mu=
ch of the value of using BCP 47 in the=0Afirst place. =0A =0A--=0ADoug Ewel=
l | Thornton, CO, US | ewellic.org


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Subject: [Slim] [slim] #2 (negotiating-human-language): In real-time document, modalities in introduction should be spoken, signed or written
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#2: In real-time document, modalities in introduction should be spoken, signed
or written

 Early in the introduction of draft-ietf-slim-negotiating-human-
 language-04, it is said:
 ------------------------------
 When setting up interactive communication sessions (using SIP or
    other protocols), human (natural) language and media modality (voice,
    video, text) negotiation may be needed.
 -------------------------------------------------

 Modality is rather spoken, signed or written. (relation to media audio,
 video and text is explained later in the introduction)

 ---------Proposed replacement------------------
 When setting up interactive communication sessions (using SIP or
    other protocols), human (natural) language and media modality (spoken,
 signed, written) negotiation may be needed.
 ------------end of proposal--------------------------

-- 
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
 Reporter:                           |      Owner:  draft-ietf-slim-
  gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se        |  negotiating-human-language@ietf.org
     Type:  defect                   |     Status:  new
 Priority:  trivial                  |  Milestone:
Component:  negotiating-human-       |    Version:
  language                           |   Keywords:  modality
 Severity:  In WG Last Call          |
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <https://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/trac/ticket/2>
slim <https://tools.ietf.org/slim/>


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Subject: [Slim] [slim] #3 (negotiating-human-language): Delete (known as voice carry over)
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#3: Delete (known as voice carry over)

 In the introduction, there is this sentence:
 --------------------------------------------
 Another example would be a user who is able to
    speak but is deaf or hard-of-hearing and requires a voice stream plus
    a text stream (known as voice carry over).
 ----------------------------------------------
 This is not only a description of "voice carry over" that most commonly is
 used as a term for a variant of use of a traditional text relay service.
 It is also a description of "captioned telephony" service and use of both
 voice and text simultaneously in a specific way in a point-to-point call.
 Therefore, delete the paranthesis and let the sentence read:
 --------------after modification--------------------
 Another example would be a user who is able to
    speak but is deaf or hard-of-hearing and requires a voice stream plus
    a text stream.
 ----------------------------------------------------

-- 
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
 Reporter:                           |      Owner:  draft-ietf-slim-
  gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se        |  negotiating-human-language@ietf.org
     Type:  defect                   |     Status:  new
 Priority:  minor                    |  Milestone:
Component:  negotiating-human-       |    Version:
  language                           |   Keywords:  simultaneous
 Severity:  In WG Last Call          |
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <https://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/trac/ticket/3>
slim <https://tools.ietf.org/slim/>


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Subject: [Slim] [slim] #4 (negotiating-human-language): Section 3 has many informal references. Reword the section.
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#4: Section 3 has many informal references. Reword the section.

 Section 3 "Expected use" has references to NENA, 3GPP, SA1, an outdated
 NENA document name. This is unusual in an IETF standards track draft.
 Reword the section to the proposal provided to the slim list on July 19.
 --------current section 3------------------

    This facility may be used by NENA and 3GPP.  NENA has already
    referenced it in NENA 08-01 (i3 Stage 3 version 2) in describing
    attributes of calls presented to an ESInet, and may add further
    details in that or other documents.  3GPP may reference this
    mechanism in general call handling and emergency call handling.  Some
    CRs introduced in SA1 have anticipated this functionality being
    provided within SDP.
 -------------------------------------------------------------


 ----Proposed replacement for section 3------------------
 This facility may be used by higher level specifications to provide a way
 for negotiating language and modality. There are specification that
 anticipate this functionality being provided within SDP.
 --------------------------------------------

-- 
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
 Reporter:                           |      Owner:  draft-ietf-slim-
  gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se        |  negotiating-human-language@ietf.org
     Type:  defect                   |     Status:  new
 Priority:  major                    |  Milestone:
Component:  negotiating-human-       |    Version:
  language                           |   Keywords:
 Severity:  In WG Last Call          |
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <https://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/trac/ticket/4>
slim <https://tools.ietf.org/slim/>


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Subject: Re: [Slim] [slim] #4 (negotiating-human-language): Section 3 has many informal references. Reword the section.
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#4: Section 3 has many informal references. Reword the section.


Comment (by gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se):

 The dividing lines above should have embedded text "Current wording" and
 "Proposed new wording" included, but that was lost in publishing the
 issue. Now, I do not find how to edit the original issue, so please read
 that into the sections above.

-- 
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
 Reporter:                           |       Owner:  draft-ietf-slim-
  gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se        |  negotiating-human-language@ietf.org
     Type:  defect                   |      Status:  new
 Priority:  major                    |   Milestone:
Component:  negotiating-human-       |     Version:
  language                           |  Resolution:
 Severity:  In WG Last Call          |
 Keywords:                           |
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <https://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/trac/ticket/4#comment:1>
slim <https://tools.ietf.org/slim/>


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Subject: [Slim] [slim] #5 (negotiating-human-language): Improve paragraph on relay services in section 1. Introduction.
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#5: Improve paragraph on relay services in section 1. Introduction.

 In section 1, Introduction, there is a paragraph about relay services. It
 is limited to how most relay services function today, but should instead
 be open for the changes and improvements that are possible when the draft
 is applied.

 Current text:
 _____________________________________
    Regarding relay services, in the case of an emergency call requiring
    sign language such as ASL, there are two common approaches: the
    caller initiates the call to a relay center, or the caller places the
    call to emergency services (e.g., 911 in the U.S. or 112 in Europe).
    (In a variant of the second case, the voice service provider invokes
    a relay service as well as emergency services.)  In the former case,
    the language need is ancillary and supplemental.  In the non-variant
    second case, the ESInet and/or PSAP may take the need for sign
    language into account and bridge in a relay center.  In this case,
    the ESInet and PSAP have all the standard information available (such
    as location) but are able to bridge the relay sooner in the call
    processing.
 ____________________________________________________
 Proposed modified text.
 ----------------------------------------------------------
 Regarding relay services, in the case of an emergency call requiring
 sign language, there are three common approaches: 1) the caller is
 customer of a relay service which intercepts all calls and in turn
 initiates the call to a relay service, 2) the caller is customer of a
 general service provider and places the call to emergency services (e.g.,
 911 in the U.S. or 112 in Europe), or 3) the caller is customer of a
 service provider which supports invocation of relay services when found
 needed in general calls as well as emergency service calls.
  In the first case the language need can be used by the relay service to
 allocate an interpreter with suitable competence, while in many cases the
 relay service is only serving one language/modality combination and the
 provided language information is then ancillary and supplemental.  In the
 second case, the ESInet and/or PSAP may take the need for a specific sign
 language into account and bridge in a relay service. In this case, the
 ESInet and PSAP have all the standard information available (such as
 location) and are able to bridge the required relay early into the call.
 In the third case, the service provider can base the decision on if a
 relay service is needed in the call on the language and modality
 information. The need for language and modality indication in these cases
 becomes extra apparent when dealing with emergency calls by visitors to
 regions with other default languages than the caller's.

-- 
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
 Reporter:                           |      Owner:  draft-ietf-slim-
  gunnar.hellstrom@omnitor.se        |  negotiating-human-language@ietf.org
     Type:  enhancement              |     Status:  new
 Priority:  minor                    |  Milestone:
Component:  negotiating-human-       |    Version:
  language                           |   Keywords:  relay services
 Severity:  In WG Last Call          |
-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------

Ticket URL: <https://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/slim/trac/ticket/5>
slim <https://tools.ietf.org/slim/>

