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[70.121.86.117]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t10sm3375944otq.12.2019.10.20.10.51.24 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 20 Oct 2019 10:51:24 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Adam Montville Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 12:51:23 -0500 Message-Id: References: Cc: "smart@irtf.org" In-Reply-To: To: "Arnaud.Taddei.IETF" X-Mailer: iPad Mail (17A860) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Smart] CLESS side meeting notes X-BeenThere: smart@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Stopping Malware And Researching Threats List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 17:51:32 -0000 All: The below is snipped from the original message. Is the taxonomy draft going t= o be updated prior to Singapore? Kind regards, Adam > On Jul 31, 2019, at 07:36, Arnaud.Taddei.IETF wrote: >=20 > Plan PART 1: Mark McFadden wrote endpoint-taxonomy-cless to describe the e= ndpoints more accurately and give a language for working with these. Reach o= ut to Henk to work on this. Suggestion to make things less qualitative and m= ore quantitative. Due to virtualization and containerization, this varies =E2= =80=93 IoT characteristic work done elsewhere (David NIST gives reference: R= FC 7228). He plans to issue revision in August based on comments from Montre= al; and get another version for this before Singapore. Needs to group virtua= lized environments with their devices, have more detail on the taxonomy. Sho= uld it be a taxonomy or a categorization? (How deep to go?) From nobody Mon Oct 21 06:38:22 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: smart@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: smart@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EB26120099 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2019 06:38:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pl4Z_ed1DH3j for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2019 06:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x235.google.com (mail-oi1-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 34737120033 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2019 06:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x235.google.com with SMTP id d140so6729340oib.5 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2019 06:38:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=7bOMCyst1VzZfFR9ieGTeyqefuscTYeuGO007XUntgE=; b=C+gCMuVKKKnbR9UPKd7YfBnYbRCvwV/z+KOWgj1NyEYTq69OSEECD6j9gkeVV8qhI5 N08VGu4BgMSxA2aPYKKp8dNhemdBiVH4JZLZIeyuyboOZ0F+ihDhXrl125GDE5mSnwrV JCHYJ758k2BbrbPMUXxnjwnwLwYHkcltZNHBitq4Oq4/z8AJr8OotQvyZfshBh7LPuP7 Q9A3R0HGTObkVCEpZJo64ksX23sEbO2a2MAf4EEsTqWoHVDLOiH7/kMJndNquR5M61Ba ixN5zpvUA336uZDtT9dOZj4wX8SyIKikhJhBTQ4YAwZbdzXZje/0wsqPgxiHKojWiDkT 3NDg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=7bOMCyst1VzZfFR9ieGTeyqefuscTYeuGO007XUntgE=; b=Pdi1e7MwmONkeBSDaS0iSeoyz8H/ZyHH5f2PrVOfxLuD+OJm6wumTYWTenEbSg3jBo 2kC9MaKkqTzCeJEvrEKCBaTuecnb72cXps69v1r0iB9UruZAzEU7DnNgjArOdIISiiz+ nhNhZM88a5420SLcA+2n7vjsoUKRkBVvXYfgI4DLXo91wzBuhqHf3hMCm0gKHf95e9/f kM3eaqtDSKQb2Lule9nC9xlxYOZ0tLEB1143OyxPpq1yjkswKNUvgQHTWluT4VhPhgg3 /4mRX5b5XrGdxFw2yNoPysONZ1jskn8syzUnN01jeloK47yz3jAPvFJP4Zo4i7oEKFsu zw9w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVXW9NWP6957jOCBm1a3l6iPYxGFsU38Ol2TUbR5G2+YFGdNgIY A47o8fJ+dFA6dqhuZUH5nuDM+1axEJ+ce+CcbL8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxTKm5Qon+gR8SkFcucS3Epx6ARkp9CA2xfSUN7PBp59ukrxESk+PBXFuQHABUYTUGUuG2ZD2HAw5oDBREYhEg= X-Received: by 2002:aca:4744:: with SMTP id u65mr14572491oia.164.1571665098384; Mon, 21 Oct 2019 06:38:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 09:37:42 -0400 Message-ID: To: Adam Montville Cc: "Arnaud.Taddei.IETF" , "smart@irtf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e52a2305956bcb1d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Smart] CLESS side meeting notes X-BeenThere: smart@irtf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Stopping Malware And Researching Threats List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 13:38:21 -0000 --000000000000e52a2305956bcb1d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello! Thanks again for your work on these drafts! I just scanned CLESS and the taxonomy draft and have some high-level feedback. I'd like to get some folks internal to my organization to help build it out further. I think combining the OS and execution environment into one bucket is large and it involves multiple vendors in many circumstances, so these should be separated out. I am assuming with your execution environment, you are including all the functions and keys on a TEE (random number generator, keys, etc), firmware and BIOS. Since we already have the RATS working group, references to white listing capabilities that include code signing type functions should also include attestation. The MUD [RFC8520] work should also be referenced as it provides a way to detect unexpected behavior patterns for devices with a small profile. Being able to do this in a similar way that scales for larger systems is still an open are of research. The draft should also call out compromises in code or even hardware prior to the vendor providing an attestation or signing code as that is an open area of research. If a backdoor is placed by a hacker and does not behave in ways that signal unexpected behavior or remains idle, there's no way to detect it. There is some duplication that editing can resolve. I'll have more time for helping with that in the future, but wanted to at least look at the current revisions now. Best regards, Kathleen On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 1:51 PM Adam Montville wrote: > All: > > The below is snipped from the original message. Is the taxonomy draft > going to be updated prior to Singapore? > > Kind regards, > > Adam > > > On Jul 31, 2019, at 07:36, Arnaud.Taddei.IETF 40protonmail.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > > > Plan PART 1: Mark McFadden wrote endpoint-taxonomy-cless to describe th= e > endpoints more accurately and give a language for working with these. Rea= ch > out to Henk to work on this. Suggestion to make things less qualitative a= nd > more quantitative. Due to virtualization and containerization, this varie= s > =E2=80=93 IoT characteristic work done elsewhere (David NIST gives refere= nce: RFC > 7228). He plans to issue revision in August based on comments from > Montreal; and get another version for this before Singapore. Needs to gro= up > virtualized environments with their devices, have more detail on the > taxonomy. Should it be a taxonomy or a categorization? (How deep to go?) > > -- > Smart mailing list > Smart@irtf.org > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/smart > --=20 Best regards, Kathleen --000000000000e52a2305956bcb1d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello!

Thanks again for your work on th= ese drafts!=C2=A0 I just scanned CLESS and the taxonomy draft and have some= high-level feedback.=C2=A0 I'd like to get some folks internal to my o= rganization to help build it out further.

I think = combining the OS and execution environment into one bucket is large and it = involves multiple vendors in many circumstances, so these should be separat= ed out.=C2=A0 I am assuming with your execution environment, you are includ= ing all the functions and keys on a TEE (random number generator, keys, etc= ), firmware=C2=A0and BIOS.

Since we already have t= he RATS working group, references to white listing capabilities that includ= e code signing type functions should also include attestation.=C2=A0=C2=A0<= /div>

The MUD [RFC8520] work should also be referenced a= s it provides a way to detect unexpected behavior patterns for devices with= a small profile.=C2=A0 Being able to do this in a similar way that scales = for larger systems is still an open are of research.

The draft should also call out compromises in code or even hardware prio= r to the vendor providing an attestation or signing code as that is an open= area of research.=C2=A0 If a backdoor is placed by a hacker and does not b= ehave in ways that signal unexpected behavior or remains idle, there's = no way to detect it.

There is some duplication tha= t editing can resolve.=C2=A0 I'll have more time for helping with that = in the future, but wanted to at least look at the current revisions now.
=C2=A0=C2=A0
Best regards,
Kathleen
<= br>

On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 1:51 PM Adam Montville <adam.montville.sdo@gmail.com> wrote= :
All:

The below is snipped from the original message. Is the taxonomy draft going= to be updated prior to Singapore?

Kind regards,

Adam

> On Jul 31, 2019, at 07:36, Arnaud.Taddei.IETF <Arnaud.Taddei.IETF= =3D40p= rotonmail.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
> Plan PART 1: Mark McFadden wrote endpoint-taxonomy-cless to describe t= he endpoints more accurately and give a language for working with these. Re= ach out to Henk to work on this. Suggestion to make things less qualitative= and more quantitative. Due to virtualization and containerization, this va= ries =E2=80=93 IoT characteristic work done elsewhere (David NIST gives ref= erence: RFC 7228). He plans to issue revision in August based on comments f= rom Montreal; and get another version for this before Singapore. Needs to g= roup virtualized environments with their devices, have more detail on the t= axonomy. Should it be a taxonomy or a categorization? (How deep to go?)

--
Smart mailing list
Smart@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/smart


--

Best regards,
Kathleen
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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi everyone, We're posting to inform you that SMART has not been given any official agen= da time at IETF 106. We have been emailing with the IRTF Chair a lot behind= the scenes; we've posted the rejected charter on Github here: https://gith= ub.com/smart-rg/drafts/blob/master/draft-charter.md We received the following feedback: SMART has not been approved as an IRTF proposed research group because the = IRTF Chair, who can grant a group, believes the research goals and scope ar= e not clear, and is unsure that IRTF is an appropriate venue for the work. We're naturally disappointed and continue to welcome support from those int= erested in seeing the work get done - preferably in a productive and useful= venue. More details will follow on the work that's already been created an= d new work that's coming, thanks to continued interest in SMART from academ= ia and industry, and the unofficial meeting we will hold in Singapore. Many thanks, Kirsty & Kathleen This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA)= and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer any FOIA q= ueries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk. All material is UK Crown Copyright =A9 --_000_LO2P123MB1727F2CA1773B895E26356C5D7600LO2P123MB1727GBRP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi everyone,

We're posting to inform you that SMART has not been given any official= agenda time at IETF 106. We have been emailing with the IRTF Chair a lot b= ehind the scenes; we've posted the rejected charter on Github here: h= ttps://github.com/smart-rg/drafts/blob/master/draft-charter.md 

We received the following feedback:
SMART has not been approved as an IRTF proposed research group because= the IRTF Chair, who can grant a group, believes the research goals and sco= pe are not clear, and is unsure that IRTF is an appropriate venue for the w= ork.

We're naturally disappointed and continue to welcome support from thos= e interested in seeing the work get done - preferably in a productive and u= seful venue. More details will follow on the work that's already been creat= ed and new work that's coming, thanks to continued interest in SMART from academia and industry, and the unoffic= ial meeting we will hold in Singapore.

Many thanks,

Kirsty & Kathleen
This information is exempt under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA)= and may be exempt under other UK information legislation. Refer any FOIA q= ueries to ncscinfoleg@ncsc.gov.uk. All material is UK Crown Copyright =A9 --_000_LO2P123MB1727F2CA1773B895E26356C5D7600LO2P123MB1727GBRP_--