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From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org  Wed Sep  1 10:44:09 2004
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Subject: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
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Since this WG has most of the CMS experts in it, I would appreciate review 
of the document that was posted earlier this 
week:  draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt.

My intention is to request that this document be published as a 
standards-track RFC.

Thanks,
   Russ



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From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
To: housley@vigilsec.com, ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
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Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> writes:

>Since this WG has most of the CMS experts in it, I would appreciate review of
>the document that was posted earlier this week:  draft-housley-
>binarytime-00.txt.

Uhh... what on earth motivated this?  It's a time format that's even more
limited than UTCTime.

Peter.



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The document states the rationale.  No conversion to operating system 
representation and it is smaller.  In what way do you find it limiting?

The INTEGER is not limited to four octets.  Did you read it that way?

Russ

At 10:55 AM 9/1/2004, Peter Gutmann wrote:
>Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> writes:
>
> >Since this WG has most of the CMS experts in it, I would appreciate 
> review of
> >the document that was posted earlier this week:  draft-housley-
> >binarytime-00.txt.
>
>Uhh... what on earth motivated this?  It's a time format that's even more
>limited than UTCTime.
>
>Peter.



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From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
To: housley@vigilsec.com, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
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Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> writes:

>The document states the rationale.  No conversion to operating system
>representation and it is smaller.  In what way do you find it limiting?

It doesn't go beyond 2038, whereas UTCTime at least goes to 2050.

The proposal isn't so much limiting as... bizarre.  The ASN.1 time formats
have been around forever. everything supports them, and this proposal is for a
format that isn't even as "flexible" as the not-very-flexible UTCTime.  What
real problem is this addressing?  Why a time_t?  Why not a 64-bit time to keep
the Java guys happy?  Or the Windows nanoseconds-since-1600 time?  Or the
Macintosh seconds-since 1904?  You could make it a choice, so no-one would
feel left out, with at least one of the choices being an identified-by-OID
value so everyone could add their own favourite oddball format...

Peter.



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Peter:

> >The document states the rationale.  No conversion to operating system
> >representation and it is smaller.  In what way do you find it limiting?
>
>It doesn't go beyond 2038, whereas UTCTime at least goes to 2050.

Not so.  A 4-octet value takes us to 2038.  After that a 5-octet value is 
needed.  Many operating systems already use a 64-bit value internally.

>The proposal isn't so much limiting as... bizarre.  The ASN.1 time formats
>have been around forever. everything supports them, and this proposal is for a
>format that isn't even as "flexible" as the not-very-flexible UTCTime.  What
>real problem is this addressing?  Why a time_t?  Why not a 64-bit time to keep
>the Java guys happy?  Or the Windows nanoseconds-since-1600 time?  Or the
>Macintosh seconds-since 1904?  You could make it a choice, so no-one would
>feel left out, with at least one of the choices being an identified-by-OID
>value so everyone could add their own favourite oddball format...

Any of these is possible, but a choice defeats the whole point, which is to 
avoid complex conversion.

Russ



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> >The document states the rationale.  No conversion to operating system
> >representation and it is smaller.  In what way do you find it limiting?
> 
> It doesn't go beyond 2038, whereas UTCTime at least goes to 2050.

Some thoughts: 

The value is an ASN.1 INTEGER, not a time_t or whatever. 

The format IS flexible because it allows any integre size. It may just
happen that implements will wake up 33 years and find out that their
asn1 decoding of this INTEGER cannot convert higher numbers.. 

There are machines where the internal format of time is not seconds
since 1.1.70, ...

Showing this time to a user always requires some conversion, while 
displaying a generaizedtime does not. 

The few octes advantadge over generalizedtime seems small compared to the 
size of a signature. And treatment of generalized time is necessary anyway
because of dates in certs. 



> 
> The proposal isn't so much limiting as... bizarre.  The ASN.1 time formats
> have been around forever. everything supports them, and this proposal is for a
> format that isn't even as "flexible" as the not-very-flexible UTCTime.  What
> real problem is this addressing?  Why a time_t?  Why not a 64-bit time to keep
> the Java guys happy?  Or the Windows nanoseconds-since-1600 time?  Or the
> Macintosh seconds-since 1904?  You could make it a choice, so no-one would
> feel left out, with at least one of the choices being an identified-by-OID
> value so everyone could add their own favourite oddball format...
> 
> Peter.
> 
> 



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I have forgotten: 

The proposed format and SMIME attributes serves the same purpose as
an existing one, i.e. id-signingTime 

Nothing is said about what to do when both attributes are present,
how they should be treated when available together. 

One probably wants to set both, so instead of saving data and cpu,
one will add.  


> 
> > >The document states the rationale.  No conversion to operating system
> > >representation and it is smaller.  In what way do you find it limiting?
> > 
> > It doesn't go beyond 2038, whereas UTCTime at least goes to 2050.
> 
> Some thoughts: 
> 
> The value is an ASN.1 INTEGER, not a time_t or whatever. 
> 
> The format IS flexible because it allows any integre size. It may just
> happen that implements will wake up 33 years and find out that their
> asn1 decoding of this INTEGER cannot convert higher numbers.. 
> 
> There are machines where the internal format of time is not seconds
> since 1.1.70, ...
> 
> Showing this time to a user always requires some conversion, while 
> displaying a generaizedtime does not. 
> 
> The few octes advantadge over generalizedtime seems small compared to the 
> size of a signature. And treatment of generalized time is necessary anyway
> because of dates in certs. 
> 



From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org  Wed Sep  1 14:51:05 2004
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From: "Tony Capel" <capel@comgate.com>
To: <ietf-smime@imc.org>, <stefans@microsoft.com>
Cc: "'Anders Rundgren'" <anders.rundgren@telia.com>
Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
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Stefan:

I am also concerned about requiring that the sMIMECapabilities be in the
certificate itself, although I agree that something to help get initial
sMIMECapabilities is required.

Jim Schaad's "Certificate Distribution Specification" expired draft
(draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt) touched on this as well.

If sMIMECapabilities is bound to the certificate, certificates may need to be
re-issued more frequently (when capabilities information is changed).  This will
create additional work for the CA, and CRLs will inevitably increase in size
(these are bad things).  (Correct me if I am wrong: If the capabilities for an
organization changes, all of the certs will need to be reissued!)

Also since the certificate is signed by the CA, sMIMECapabilities in this
proposal is signed by the CA and not the end-entity (as in existing method).
This may sometimes be beneficial since it allows the CA to have added control
over the use of algorithms and key lengths.  The change from the end-user
signing to the CA signing has security implications and should be noted*
(possibly in the security section). 

Some of the issues could be addressed by allowing the use of a dynamic method as
well.  One or more methods could be specified, XKMS + DNS, LDAP, and/or HTTP for
example.  One available method could be an "immediate" method, allowing those
CAs who do not mind putting sMIMECapabilities within their certificates to do so
(as currently proposed).


I also wonder how many cases there are when only the sMIMECapabilities is
required (and not certificates & paths as well).  If you don't have a
certificate, an extension won't help (you need certificates and
sMIMECapabilities both).  If you have a certificate from a previous message you
likely also received the sMIMECapabilities in a SignerInfo.  If you obtained the
certificate using LDAP or some other means you might logically but arguably
expect to access the sMIMECapabilities the same way.  If your software threw
away the S/MIME capabilities (rather than caching them like the certificate)
adding them to the certificate is a peculiar way to fix the software!  Also of
course for dual keypair systems, there may be situations where you have the
signing certificate but not the encryption one, in which case you want both
sMIMECapabilities and the encryption cert - and I hope the proposal is not to
embed the encryption cert inside the signing cert!!!

So maybe the method used to get sMIMECapabilities should also be able to return
the certificates & paths - to make it more generally useful - in which case Jim
Schaad's proposal - and allowing any dynamic access method including XKMS + DNS,
LDAP, HTTP, . - may be worth another look.

Sorry for the long winded reply.  But an easier method to get certs, paths and
sMIMECapabilities is needed. 

Tony


* This may also include a discussion about using values provided in certificates
in preference to values obtained by other means (e.g. when both a certificate
and the SignerInfo contain sMIMECapabilities).  For example, the first paragraph
of Section 3 in the current proposal may not always be correct:  the
sMIMECapabilities list signed by the CA (e.g. provided in a certificate) may be
more trusted than the list provided in a message even if it appears the message
was more recent.  In some applications the increased trust (or more correctly,
the increased authority of the signor) may take preference.



| -----Original Message-----
| From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org 
| [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Anders Rundgren
| Sent: August 12, 2004 4:35 AM
| To: ietf-smime@imc.org
| Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
| 
| 
| 
| I have no comments on the "design" in this draft.
| 
| However, I seriously question the idea to put client software 
| capabilities in certificates.
| 
| Why?
| - because issuers may not have this information
| - because users may have multiple clients
| - because static solutions are limiting
| 
| If we begin to use dynamic methods like XKMS + DNS to find 
| public keys of recipients, SCEXT represents a step in another 
| direction.
| 
| Due to the limited utility of true end-to-end encryption in 
| corporate environments (the DOMSEC RFC shows a few good 
| reasons to that), as well as the de-facto use of the web as a 
| distribution medium for e-government purposes (which is a 
| much easier solution than S/MIME), I believe that Microsoft 
| should focus on making a gateway e-mail standard a reality 
| rather than patching a system that never will play a major 
| role and actually mostly creates problems for end-users and 
| system administrators.
| 
| Anders
| 
| 





From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org  Wed Sep  1 14:54:24 2004
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Peter,

Your criticism is what seems bizarre.  The one sentence omitted
from what you quote below states that it DOES go beyond 2038.  An
INTEGER number of seconds since Jan 1 1970 will go until the
heat death of the universe and beyond.

The question for more rational discussion is:  is a binary signing time
value useful?  If the answer is yes, the only remaining questions are
epoch and resolution.  Since there were very few CMS digital
signatures in existence before 1970, using an epoch of 1600 or 1904
would seem to offer little benefit.  It is also difficult to articulate
a rationale for specifying the moment of signing to nanosecond
resolution.

The reason for a binary attribute in the first place is primarily
space efficiency.  CMS can be used to sign large numbers of
small objects, and certificates don't need to accompany
those objects.  ASN.1 structures can be PER encoded, but
PER offers minimal compression of UTC or Generalized Times
(7 bits vs. 8 per character).   Once you have squeezed out all bits
permitted by the standard, you look for additional opportunities.
Defining a binary time attribute is one such opportunity.

Will this be useful for S/MIME?  Of course not.  But it is
useful for some other applications of CMS.

Dave


Peter Gutmann wrote:

>Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> writes:
>
>  
>
>>The document states the rationale.  No conversion to operating system
>>representation and it is smaller.  In what way do you find it limiting?
>>    
>>
>
>It doesn't go beyond 2038, whereas UTCTime at least goes to 2050.
>
>The proposal isn't so much limiting as... bizarre.  The ASN.1 time formats
>have been around forever. everything supports them, and this proposal is for a
>format that isn't even as "flexible" as the not-very-flexible UTCTime.  What
>real problem is this addressing?  Why a time_t?  Why not a 64-bit time to keep
>the Java guys happy?  Or the Windows nanoseconds-since-1600 time?  Or the
>Macintosh seconds-since 1904?  You could make it a choice, so no-one would
>feel left out, with at least one of the choices being an identified-by-OID
>value so everyone could add their own favourite oddball format...
>
>Peter.
>
>
>  
>



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Peter:

> > >The document states the rationale.  No conversion to operating system
> > >representation and it is smaller.  In what way do you find it limiting?
> >
> > It doesn't go beyond 2038, whereas UTCTime at least goes to 2050.
>
>Some thoughts:
>
>The value is an ASN.1 INTEGER, not a time_t or whatever.
>
>The format IS flexible because it allows any integre size. It may just
>happen that implements will wake up 33 years and find out that their
>asn1 decoding of this INTEGER cannot convert higher numbers..

Yep.

>There are machines where the internal format of time is not seconds
>since 1.1.70, ...

I agree.  However, very simple math can be used to make the 
conversion.  However, conversion from UTCTime and GeneralizedTime is a bit 
more complicated.  I do admit that operating systems provide the necessary 
routines to handle this in a few lines of code.

>Showing this time to a user always requires some conversion, while
>displaying a generaizedtime does not.

Display to a human is not the biggest concern.  Date comparison is a much 
bigger deal to me.  Integer comparison is easy, even when multi-precision 
integers are involved.

>The few octes advantadge over generalizedtime seems small compared to the
>size of a signature. And treatment of generalized time is necessary anyway
>because of dates in certs.

Yep.  I think that BinaryTime has other uses too.

Russ



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<html>
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<img border="0" src="http://pokunge.startlinginternet.com/date3/at.gif" width="383" height="210"></a><br>
<br>
<br>
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From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org  Wed Sep  1 15:41:46 2004
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Thanx Craig,
I was not aware of the mailsig (WG?) list.   That means this
is outside of the S/MIME charter I suppose?

BTW, here is a "competitor":
http://www.opengroup.org/comm/press/19jul04.htm

What I have seen little of, is how this can scale without having
a gateway PKI in place.  Peer-to-peer certification does not seem
like a terribly good idea.

Regards
Anders
----- Original Message -----
From: Craig McGregor
To: Anders Rundgren
Cc: Sean P. Turner ; SMIME
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 23:23
Subject: RE: Charter Modification


Anders,

I wasn't at the BOF you mentioned but as I understand it the BOF was scoped for signing/authenticating e-mail.
Draft Charter: http://www.imc.org/ietf-mailsig/mail-archive/msg00000.html
Minutes: http://www.imc.org/ietf-mailsig/mail-archive/msg00025.html

S/MIME gateways could use all existing S/MIME specifications and not be limited to only signing outbound e-mail. e.g. Encryption
over the untrusted networks that transports messages between domains that might otherwise have some level of trust.

I would also like to see an interoperable S/MIME Gateway||Domains||Entities standard or specification. I have had some past
experience at making a limited set of S/MIME gateway software talk to each other reliably. This was more challenging at that time
than it should have been.

S/MIME Gateway signing and encryption is quite possible in a closed-community of domains today - example: http://e.govt.nz/see/mail/
(Since November 2000)

If it was possible to solve key management, PKI trust and legacy interoperability (including mailing-list behaviour) using something
that scales to an open community then an S/MIME gateway approach could certainly work in the open community. Solving all three of
these problems isn't necessarily easy.

Regards,
Craig

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Anders Rundgren
Sent: Tuesday, 31 August 2004 6:09 p.m.
To: Sean P. Turner; SMIME
Subject: Re: Charter Modification


How about including a S/MIME gateway task?
The OpenGroup and Blake B are reportedly working on such a thing.

What happened with the gateway BOF that Phill H-B wrote about sometime ago?

An S/MIME gateway standard is really needed as S/MIME end-to-end encryption is not going anywhere.

Anders
----- Original Message -----
From: Sean P. Turner
To: SMIME
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 01:41
Subject: Charter Modification


All,

To include Stefan's work in the working group we need to modify the working group's charter (we also needed to update the dates
anyway because some are way off).  Attached is the proposed modification.  Please respond with any comments by  Friday.

Cheers,

spt





S/MIME Mail Security (smime)

Chair:
     Sean Turner <turners@ieca.com>
     Blake Ramsdell <blake@sendmail.com>


Security Area Director:
     Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
     Steve Belovin <smb@research.att.com>

Security Area Advisor:
     Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>

Mailing Lists:
     General Discussion: ietf-smime@imc.org
     To Subscribe:       ietf-smime-request@imc.org
     Archive:            http://www.imc.org/ietf-smime/

Description of Working Group:

The S/MIME Working Group has completed a series of Proposed Standards that comprise the S/MIME version 3.1 specification. As part of
the specification update, a new suite of "mandatory to implement" algorithms was be selected. Current efforts update and build upon
these base specifications.

The Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) (RFC 3852) is cryptographic algorithm independent, yet there is always more than one way to
use any algorithm. To ensure interoperability, each algorithm should have a specification that describes its use with CMS.
Specifications for the use of additional cryptographic algorithms will be developed.

To aid implementers, documents containing example output for CMS will be collected and published. Some of the examples will include

structures and signed attributes defined in the Enhanced SecurityServices (ESS) (RFC 2634) document.

CMS, as well as S/MIME version 3 and later, permit the use of previously distributed symmetric key-encryption keys. Specifications
for the distribution of symmetric key-encryption keys to multiple message recipients will be developed. Mail List Agents (MLAs)
areone user of symmetric key-encryption keys. The specification will be algorithm independent.

To aid initial determination of recipient's cryptographic capabilities a specification will be developed allowing S/MIME
capabilities to be stored and asserted in X.509 certificates based on the X.509 certificate and CRL profile developed by the PKIX
Working Group.

The working group will perform necessary interoperability testing to rogress the CMS and S/MIME specifications to Draft Standard.
The CMS specification depends on the RFC 3280. This profile must progress to Draft Standard before CMS and the other S/MIME
specifications can progress to Draft Standard. Assuming timely progress by the PKIX Working Group, the S/MIME specification can
start progressing to Draft Standard in 2005.

Milestones:

History
     Submit CMS compressed data content type a Proposed Standard.
     Submit security label usage specification as Informational RFC.
     Submit elliptic curve algorithm specification as Informational RFC.
     Submit update to CMS as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit CMS Algorithms as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit AES key wrap algorithm description as Informational RFC.
     Last call on X.400 CMS wrapper specification.
     Last call on X.400 transport specification.
     Last call on HMAC key wrap description specification.
     Last call on RSA OAEP algorithm specification.
     Last call on AES algorithm specification.
     Last call on update to MSG.
     First draft of update to CERT.
     First draft of CMS and ESS examples document.
     First draft of S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix.
     First draft of RSA PSS algorithm specification.
     Submit mail list key distribution as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit HMAC key wrap description as Proposed Standard.
     Submit RSA OAEP algorithm specification as a Proposed Standard.
     Sumbit AES algorithm specification as Proposed Standard.
     Submit X.400 CMS wrapper specification as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit X.400 transport as a Proposed Standard.
     Last call on CMS and ESS examples document.
     Sumbit update to CERT as Proposed Standard.
     Sumbit update to MSG as Proposed Standard.
     First draft of RSA KEM algorithm specification.
     Last call on RSA PSS algorithm specification.
     Submit RSA PSS algorithm specification as Proposed Standard

September 04
     Submit CMS and ESS examples document as Informational RFC
     First draft of S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension

October 04
     Working Group Last Call for S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension

December 04
     Submit S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension as Informational RFC

January 05
     Final S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix

February 05
     Request advancement of CMS Algorithms to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of CMS to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of ESS to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of CERT to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of MSG to Draft Standard
     Last call on RSA KEM algorithm specification

January 06
     Submit RSA KEM algorithm specification as Proposed Standard



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Tony,

In-line;


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com]
> Sent: den 1 september 2004 20:37
> To: ietf-smime@imc.org; Stefan Santesson
> Cc: 'Anders Rundgren'
> Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
> 
> Stefan:
> 
> I am also concerned about requiring that the sMIMECapabilities be in
the
> certificate itself, although I agree that something to help get
initial
> sMIMECapabilities is required.

[Stefan] This is a fundamental misunderstanding. I do certainly not
propose that sMIMECapabilities should be REQUIRED in certs.

This is an option for the many cases where this is useful, makes sense
and is compatible with the organizational structure it is used.

So we don't need to prove that it is useful for all certificates and all
use cases. We only need to prove that it is useful enough and that its
use is not creating problems for those for which it doesn't make any
sense.

> 
> Jim Schaad's "Certificate Distribution Specification" expired draft
> (draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt) touched on this as well.
> 
[Stefan] I'm sorry, I don't have this draft.

> If sMIMECapabilities is bound to the certificate, certificates may
need to
> be
> re-issued more frequently (when capabilities information is changed).
> This will
> create additional work for the CA, and CRLs will inevitably increase
in
> size
> (these are bad things).  (Correct me if I am wrong: If the
capabilities
> for an
> organization changes, all of the certs will need to be reissued!)

[Stefan] As you mention below, the act to put sMIMECapabilities is more
of a policy enforcement act and as such it doesn't differ from many
other aspects of certificates. You can compare with the case where the
certificate policy gets updated, changed or a new certificate policy
must be added to all certificates.

If your policy in this matter is subject to change on a frequent basis
in a way that needs to be immediately populated you need to handle and
plan for this. You may the conclude that you don't want to put
sMIMECapabilities in your certs. Renewal doesn't however necessarily
mean that old certificate must be revoked and some PKI implementations
actually allow enforced silent renewal of all certificate in an
organization to all users at the cost of just a few clicks in the
administrational GUI.

This must in the end be compared with the case where an initial exchange
takes place and the sender has NO knowledge about the recipient, then it
will need to fall back to the default configuration in the senders
application which in many cases is 40-bit encryption.

> 
> Also since the certificate is signed by the CA, sMIMECapabilities in
this
> proposal is signed by the CA and not the end-entity (as in existing
> method).
> This may sometimes be beneficial since it allows the CA to have added
> control
> over the use of algorithms and key lengths.  The change from the
end-user
> signing to the CA signing has security implications and should be
noted*
> (possibly in the security section).

[Stefan] We agree here. It is important to clearly guide that user
signed sMIMECapabilities should have precedence over capabilities
carried in certs. The capabilities in certs are only meant to be the
last resource of guidance before falling back to the default
configuration in the sender's application.


> 
> Some of the issues could be addressed by allowing the use of a dynamic
> method as
> well.  One or more methods could be specified, XKMS + DNS, LDAP,
and/or
> HTTP for
> example.  One available method could be an "immediate" method,
allowing
> those
> CAs who do not mind putting sMIMECapabilities within their
certificates to
> do so
> (as currently proposed).
> 

[Stefan] I men that it is very important to use the same structure and
attribute format as when this same information is carried in a S/MIME
signed message. This way we can preserve the same logic for capabilities
in certificates and in signed messages and thus switch to the use of
capabilities in signed messages as soon as this is available for the
sender.

> 
> I also wonder how many cases there are when only the sMIMECapabilities
is
> required (and not certificates & paths as well).

[Stefan] S/MIME is based on the use of certificates. If you have any
case where you don't have a certificate then this feature does not apply
to you.

  If you don't have a
> certificate, an extension won't help (you need certificates and
> sMIMECapabilities both).  If you have a certificate from a previous
> message you
> likely also received the sMIMECapabilities in a SignerInfo.  If you
> obtained the
> certificate using LDAP or some other means you might logically but
> arguably
> expect to access the sMIMECapabilities the same way.  If your software
> threw
> away the S/MIME capabilities (rather than caching them like the
> certificate)
> adding them to the certificate is a peculiar way to fix the software!

 [Stefan] I think this is a misunderstanding of the spec. You would use
the capabilities from the signed message if you have one. You only use
the capabilities in the certificate if you don't have any other data to
use.


> Also of
> course for dual keypair systems, there may be situations where you
have
> the
> signing certificate but not the encryption one, in which case you want
> both
> sMIMECapabilities and the encryption cert - and I hope the proposal is
not
> to
> embed the encryption cert inside the signing cert!!!

[Stefan] You are right, that is absolutely NOT the proposal.
sMIMECapabilities only makes sense in encryption certs to be used by the
sender of an encrypted message.

> 
> So maybe the method used to get sMIMECapabilities should also be able
to
> return
> the certificates & paths - to make it more generally useful - in which
> case Jim
> Schaad's proposal - and allowing any dynamic access method including
XKMS
> + DNS,
> LDAP, HTTP, . - may be worth another look.
> 
[Stefan] I don't agree. We should not overload this function. Just
complement the use of the same attribute in signed messages.

> Sorry for the long winded reply.  But an easier method to get certs,
paths
> and
> sMIMECapabilities is needed.
> 

[Stefan] No problem. I hope my answers make sense.


> Tony
> 
> 
> * This may also include a discussion about using values provided in
> certificates
> in preference to values obtained by other means (e.g. when both a
> certificate
> and the SignerInfo contain sMIMECapabilities).  For example, the first
> paragraph
> of Section 3 in the current proposal may not always be correct:  the
> sMIMECapabilities list signed by the CA (e.g. provided in a
certificate)
> may be
> more trusted than the list provided in a message even if it appears
the
> message
> was more recent.  In some applications the increased trust (or more
> correctly,
> the increased authority of the signor) may take preference.
> 
> 
> 
> | -----Original Message-----
> | From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org
> | [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Anders Rundgren
> | Sent: August 12, 2004 4:35 AM
> | To: ietf-smime@imc.org
> | Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
> |
> |
> |
> | I have no comments on the "design" in this draft.
> |
> | However, I seriously question the idea to put client software
> | capabilities in certificates.
> |
> | Why?
> | - because issuers may not have this information
> | - because users may have multiple clients
> | - because static solutions are limiting
> |
> | If we begin to use dynamic methods like XKMS + DNS to find
> | public keys of recipients, SCEXT represents a step in another
> | direction.
> |
> | Due to the limited utility of true end-to-end encryption in
> | corporate environments (the DOMSEC RFC shows a few good
> | reasons to that), as well as the de-facto use of the web as a
> | distribution medium for e-government purposes (which is a
> | much easier solution than S/MIME), I believe that Microsoft
> | should focus on making a gateway e-mail standard a reality
> | rather than patching a system that never will play a major
> | role and actually mostly creates problems for end-users and
> | system administrators.
> |
> | Anders
> |
> |
> 




From money@money.com  Thu Sep  2 03:45:08 2004
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From: Peter Sylvester <Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr>
Message-Id: <200409021249.i82Cn0C03165@chandon.edelweb.fr>
To: Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr, housley@vigilsec.com
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
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> >There are machines where the internal format of time is not seconds
> >since 1.1.70, ...
> 
> I agree.  However, very simple math can be used to make the 
> conversion.  However, conversion from UTCTime and GeneralizedTime is a bit 
> more complicated.  I do admit that operating systems provide the necessary 
> routines to handle this in a few lines of code.

If you assume a systrem that uses time_t and the availablity of a gmtime
function, something like the following should work to convert a 
generalizedtime in Zulu to a time_t. 

	time_t test = (time_t) 0;  int i ;
	for (i = ( sizeof(time_t)*8-2) ; i>=0; i--) {		
		test += (time_t)(1 << i) ;
		strftime(strtime, 16, "%Y%m%d%H%M%SZ",gmtime(&test));
		if (strncmp(tm->data,strtime,15) < 0) 
			test -= (time_t)(1 << i) ;
	} 

> >Showing this time to a user always requires some conversion, while
> >displaying a generaizedtime does not.
> 
> Display to a human is not the biggest concern.  Date comparison is a much 
> bigger deal to me.  Integer comparison is easy, even when multi-precision 
> integers are involved.

Comparison of ordered text strings is also simple. 
Dates in certificates are in generalizedtime. 

In any case, on failure, some information must bepresented, and it
may finally end up before user: signature not valid because not after 1000000000

of course, if you don't assume the availability of a gmtime function...
... but then you probably already have other problems. 

'Midnight' 1.1.70 is 00h00 or 24h00 btw.

> 
> >The few octes advantadge over generalizedtime seems small compared to the
> >size of a signature. And treatment of generalized time is necessary anyway
> >because of dates in certs.
> 
> Yep.  I think that BinaryTime has other uses too.

In the intended scenario?

I am not sure but I have the feeling that the current justification 
can be resumed as 'There may be some usages of this feature somewhere, it
is admitted that in the described scenario it is not usefule, even superfluous, 
and  may create confusion, but anyway.'

I amy be wrong.



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Peter:

> > >There are machines where the internal format of time is not seconds
> > >since 1.1.70, ...
> >
> > I agree.  However, very simple math can be used to make the
> > conversion.  However, conversion from UTCTime and GeneralizedTime is a bit
> > more complicated.  I do admit that operating systems provide the necessary
> > routines to handle this in a few lines of code.
>
>If you assume a systrem that uses time_t and the availablity of a gmtime
>function, something like the following should work to convert a
>generalizedtime in Zulu to a time_t.
>
>         time_t test = (time_t) 0;  int i ;
>         for (i = ( sizeof(time_t)*8-2) ; i>=0; i--) {
>                 test += (time_t)(1 << i) ;
>                 strftime(strtime, 16, "%Y%m%d%H%M%SZ",gmtime(&test));
>                 if (strncmp(tm->data,strtime,15) < 0)
>                         test -= (time_t)(1 << i) ;
>         }

Two thoughts:

1.  Embedded systems may not have the rich set of functions that you are 
using here.

2.  This only works when the time zone is UTC.  This is one of the reasons 
that RFC 3280 and RFC 3852 require the time values to make use of UTC.  The 
UTCTime and GeneralizedTime types do support other time zones.

> > >Showing this time to a user always requires some conversion, while
> > >displaying a generaizedtime does not.
> >
> > Display to a human is not the biggest concern.  Date comparison is a much
> > bigger deal to me.  Integer comparison is easy, even when multi-precision
> > integers are involved.
>
>Comparison of ordered text strings is also simple.
>Dates in certificates are in generalizedtime.

Yes, if all times are represented in UTC, and the times are in the same 
format.  Another complexity can arise when one date is in UTCTime and the 
other is in GeneralizedTime.

>In any case, on failure, some information must bepresented, and it
>may finally end up before user: signature not valid because not after 
>1000000000
>
>of course, if you don't assume the availability of a gmtime function...
>... but then you probably already have other problems.

I already said that above...

>'Midnight' 1.1.70 is 00h00 or 24h00 btw.

We should probably add that to the list of things to clarify if the 
specification is ever updated again.

> > >The few octes advantadge over generalizedtime seems small compared to the
> > >size of a signature. And treatment of generalized time is necessary anyway
> > >because of dates in certs.
> >
> > Yep.  I think that BinaryTime has other uses too.
>
>In the intended scenario?
>
>I am not sure but I have the feeling that the current justification
>can be resumed as 'There may be some usages of this feature somewhere, it
>is admitted that in the described scenario it is not usefule, even 
>superfluous,
>and  may create confusion, but anyway.'
>
>I amy be wrong.

You may be right.  That is why we ask for review.

Russ 



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> > > >There are machines where the internal format of time is not seconds
> > > >since 1.1.70, ...
> > >
> > > I agree.  However, very simple math can be used to make the
> > > conversion.  However, conversion from UTCTime and GeneralizedTime is a bit
> > > more complicated.  I do admit that operating systems provide the necessary
> > > routines to handle this in a few lines of code.
> >
> >If you assume a systrem that uses time_t and the availablity of a gmtime
> >function, something like the following should work to convert a
> >generalizedtime in Zulu to a time_t.
> >
> >         time_t test = (time_t) 0;  int i ;
> >         for (i = ( sizeof(time_t)*8-2) ; i>=0; i--) {
> >                 test += (time_t)(1 << i) ;
> >                 strftime(strtime, 16, "%Y%m%d%H%M%SZ",gmtime(&test));
> >                 if (strncmp(tm->data,strtime,15) < 0)
> >                         test -= (time_t)(1 << i) ;
> >         }
> 
> Two thoughts:
> 
> 1.  Embedded systems may not have the rich set of functions that you are 
> using here.
gmtime is not rich, just look at the implementations. you can easily replace
the formatting by another equivalent implementation which is less than 50
lines of C that directly converts to a string.  

And what would emebedded system do with such a time? They would compare it against
which value? If anything like certificate validation is involved,
string processing etc is necessary anyway, and if you consider the size
of an asn1 decoder, sorry, telling that gmtime or strftime are 'rich'
is a somewhet weak argument. 
 
> 
> 2.  This only works when the time zone is UTC.  This is one of the reasons 
> that RFC 3280 and RFC 3852 require the time values to make use of UTC.  The 
> UTCTime and GeneralizedTime types do support other time zones.


id-signingTime only has UTC:

   UTCTime values must be expressed in Greenwich Mean Time (Zulu) and
   must include seconds (i.e., times are YYMMDDHHMMSSZ), even where the
   number of seconds is zero.  Midnight (GMT) must be represented as
   "YYMMDD000000Z".  Century information is implicit, and the century
   must be determined as follows:

      Where YY is greater than or equal to 50, the year shall be
      interpreted as 19YY; and

      Where YY is less than 50, the year shall be interpreted as 20YY.

   GeneralizedTime values shall be expressed in Greenwich Mean Time
   (Zulu) and must include seconds (i.e., times are YYYYMMDDHHMMSSZ),
   even where the number of seconds is zero.  GeneralizedTime values
   must not include fractional seconds.

You might propose 

      SigningTime ::= Time

      Time ::= CHOICE {
        utcTime          UTCTime,
        generalizedTime  GeneralizedTime,
	epochSeconds     INTEGER}

in CMS to avoid all complications about multiple values, ie. when
having id-SigningTime and id-BinarySigningTime together, well, this
creates compartibility problems. 

> 
> > > >Showing this time to a user always requires some conversion, while
> > > >displaying a generaizedtime does not.
> > >
> > > Display to a human is not the biggest concern.  Date comparison is a much
> > > bigger deal to me.  Integer comparison is easy, even when multi-precision
> > > integers are involved.
> >
> >Comparison of ordered text strings is also simple.
> >Dates in certificates are in generalizedtime.
> 
> Yes, if all times are represented in UTC, and the times are in the same 
> format.  Another complexity can arise when one date is in UTCTime and the 
> other is in GeneralizedTime.
All id-SigningTime values are in Zulu, the necessary adjustment to convert a
UTC to a Generalized time is exteremely simple. 

> 
> >In any case, on failure, some information must bepresented, and it
> >may finally end up before user: signature not valid because not after 
> >1000000000
> >
> >of course, if you don't assume the availability of a gmtime function...
> >... but then you probably already have other problems.
> 
> I already said that above...
Well, look into the free sources. Adding 50 lines of code is less than
adding whatever logic would be necessary to check inconsistent combinations
of id-SigningTime and id-BinarySigningTime.   

> 
> >'Midnight' 1.1.70 is 00h00 or 24h00 btw.
> 
> We should probably add that to the list of things to clarify if the 
> specification is ever updated again.
No, one should reference some appropriate texts. Similar, I
don't think that it is necessary to teach people about the variable
length nature of an ASN1 INTEGER. 

> 
> > > >The few octes advantadge over generalizedtime seems small compared to the
> > > >size of a signature. And treatment of generalized time is necessary anyway
> > > >because of dates in certs.
> > >
> > > Yep.  I think that BinaryTime has other uses too.
> >
> >In the intended scenario?

Does silence to this question mean that you don't see any use in the intended
scenario? If so, where is the beef? 

> >
> >I am not sure but I have the feeling that the current justification
> >can be resumed as 'There may be some usages of this feature somewhere, it
> >is admitted that in the described scenario it is not usefule, even 
> >superfluous,
> >and  may create confusion, but anyway.'
> >
> >I amy be wrong.
> 
> You may be right.  That is why we ask for review.
I think, there are at least two Peter who don't see a need for this spec. 



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From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org  Thu Sep  2 12:35:42 2004
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Anders, et al,

I'm working with the "competition", i.e. the Open Group.  We have indeed
just launched a certification program for domain encryption and signing
based on a profile of S/MIME.  This work was done independently of, but
highly conscious of, IETF efforts in the area.  In fact, the profile used by
the program was authored by Blake Ramsdell, and we have every intention of
seeing it promulgated as widely as possible.

There are definite shortcomings in the program as it exists today,
primarily, as has been pointed out, in the area of key distribution.  The
current specification leaves this as a fundamentally manual process.  Over
time, as S/MIME gateways proliferate, we hope that the NEED for a more
scalable mechanism develops, but for now penetration of this technology is
so sparse that the more urgent need is to have products that can
interoperate on the mail and key exchange level at all.

I encourage all who are interested in this area to consider attending an
Open Group session on this at one of their meetings.  The next meeting is in
Berlin toward the end of September, but it will be primarily informational
with respect to the gateway certification program.  The following meeting,
in October in New Orleans, will have significant discussions on "v2" of the
certification program.  Please visit http://www.opengroup.org/messaging for
more information.  

In sum, the Open Group considers itself IN NO WAY competitive to the IETF,
and we would welcome participation from all interested parties.

-ben-


> From: Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren@telia.com>
> Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:18:04 +0200
> To: Craig McGregor <Craig.McGregor@treasury.govt.nz>
> Cc: "Sean P. Turner" <turners@ieca.com>, SMIME <ietf-smime@imc.org>
> Subject: Re: Charter Modification
> 
> 
> Thanx Craig,
> I was not aware of the mailsig (WG?) list.   That means this
> is outside of the S/MIME charter I suppose?
> 
> BTW, here is a "competitor":
> http://www.opengroup.org/comm/press/19jul04.htm
> 
> What I have seen little of, is how this can scale without having
> a gateway PKI in place.  Peer-to-peer certification does not seem
> like a terribly good idea.
> 
> Regards
> Anders
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Craig McGregor
> To: Anders Rundgren
> Cc: Sean P. Turner ; SMIME
> Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 23:23
> Subject: RE: Charter Modification
> 
> 
> Anders,
> 
> I wasn't at the BOF you mentioned but as I understand it the BOF was scoped
> for signing/authenticating e-mail.
> Draft Charter: http://www.imc.org/ietf-mailsig/mail-archive/msg00000.html
> Minutes: http://www.imc.org/ietf-mailsig/mail-archive/msg00025.html
> 
> S/MIME gateways could use all existing S/MIME specifications and not be
> limited to only signing outbound e-mail. e.g. Encryption
> over the untrusted networks that transports messages between domains that
> might otherwise have some level of trust.
> 
> I would also like to see an interoperable S/MIME Gateway||Domains||Entities
> standard or specification. I have had some past
> experience at making a limited set of S/MIME gateway software talk to each
> other reliably. This was more challenging at that time
> than it should have been.
> 
> S/MIME Gateway signing and encryption is quite possible in a closed-community
> of domains today - example: http://e.govt.nz/see/mail/
> (Since November 2000)
> 
> If it was possible to solve key management, PKI trust and legacy
> interoperability (including mailing-list behaviour) using something
> that scales to an open community then an S/MIME gateway approach could
> certainly work in the open community. Solving all three of
> these problems isn't necessarily easy.
> 
> Regards,
> Craig
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On
> Behalf Of Anders Rundgren
> Sent: Tuesday, 31 August 2004 6:09 p.m.
> To: Sean P. Turner; SMIME
> Subject: Re: Charter Modification
> 
> 
> How about including a S/MIME gateway task?
> The OpenGroup and Blake B are reportedly working on such a thing.
> 
> What happened with the gateway BOF that Phill H-B wrote about sometime ago?
> 
> An S/MIME gateway standard is really needed as S/MIME end-to-end encryption is
> not going anywhere.
> 
> Anders
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Sean P. Turner
> To: SMIME
> Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 01:41
> Subject: Charter Modification
> 
> 
> All,
> 
> To include Stefan's work in the working group we need to modify the working
> group's charter (we also needed to update the dates
> anyway because some are way off).  Attached is the proposed modification.
> Please respond with any comments by  Friday.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> spt
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S/MIME Mail Security (smime)
> 
> Chair:
>      Sean Turner <turners@ieca.com>
>      Blake Ramsdell <blake@sendmail.com>
> 
> 
> Security Area Director:
>      Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
>      Steve Belovin <smb@research.att.com>
> 
> Security Area Advisor:
>      Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
> 
> Mailing Lists:
>      General Discussion: ietf-smime@imc.org
>      To Subscribe:       ietf-smime-request@imc.org
>      Archive:            http://www.imc.org/ietf-smime/
> 
> Description of Working Group:
> 
> The S/MIME Working Group has completed a series of Proposed Standards that
> comprise the S/MIME version 3.1 specification. As part of
> the specification update, a new suite of "mandatory to implement" algorithms
> was be selected. Current efforts update and build upon
> these base specifications.
> 
> The Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) (RFC 3852) is cryptographic algorithm
> independent, yet there is always more than one way to
> use any algorithm. To ensure interoperability, each algorithm should have a
> specification that describes its use with CMS.
> Specifications for the use of additional cryptographic algorithms will be
> developed.
> 
> To aid implementers, documents containing example output for CMS will be
> collected and published. Some of the examples will include
> 
> structures and signed attributes defined in the Enhanced SecurityServices
> (ESS) (RFC 2634) document.
> 
> CMS, as well as S/MIME version 3 and later, permit the use of previously
> distributed symmetric key-encryption keys. Specifications
> for the distribution of symmetric key-encryption keys to multiple message
> recipients will be developed. Mail List Agents (MLAs)
> areone user of symmetric key-encryption keys. The specification will be
> algorithm independent.
> 
> To aid initial determination of recipient's cryptographic capabilities a
> specification will be developed allowing S/MIME
> capabilities to be stored and asserted in X.509 certificates based on the
> X.509 certificate and CRL profile developed by the PKIX
> Working Group.
> 
> The working group will perform necessary interoperability testing to rogress
> the CMS and S/MIME specifications to Draft Standard.
> The CMS specification depends on the RFC 3280. This profile must progress to
> Draft Standard before CMS and the other S/MIME
> specifications can progress to Draft Standard. Assuming timely progress by the
> PKIX Working Group, the S/MIME specification can
> start progressing to Draft Standard in 2005.
> 
> Milestones:
> 
> History
>      Submit CMS compressed data content type a Proposed Standard.
>      Submit security label usage specification as Informational RFC.
>      Submit elliptic curve algorithm specification as Informational RFC.
>      Submit update to CMS as a Proposed Standard.
>      Submit CMS Algorithms as a Proposed Standard.
>      Submit AES key wrap algorithm description as Informational RFC.
>      Last call on X.400 CMS wrapper specification.
>      Last call on X.400 transport specification.
>      Last call on HMAC key wrap description specification.
>      Last call on RSA OAEP algorithm specification.
>      Last call on AES algorithm specification.
>      Last call on update to MSG.
>      First draft of update to CERT.
>      First draft of CMS and ESS examples document.
>      First draft of S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix.
>      First draft of RSA PSS algorithm specification.
>      Submit mail list key distribution as a Proposed Standard.
>      Submit HMAC key wrap description as Proposed Standard.
>      Submit RSA OAEP algorithm specification as a Proposed Standard.
>      Sumbit AES algorithm specification as Proposed Standard.
>      Submit X.400 CMS wrapper specification as a Proposed Standard.
>      Submit X.400 transport as a Proposed Standard.
>      Last call on CMS and ESS examples document.
>      Sumbit update to CERT as Proposed Standard.
>      Sumbit update to MSG as Proposed Standard.
>      First draft of RSA KEM algorithm specification.
>      Last call on RSA PSS algorithm specification.
>      Submit RSA PSS algorithm specification as Proposed Standard
> 
> September 04
>      Submit CMS and ESS examples document as Informational RFC
>      First draft of S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension
> 
> October 04
>      Working Group Last Call for S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension
> 
> December 04
>      Submit S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension as Informational RFC
> 
> January 05
>      Final S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix
> 
> February 05
>      Request advancement of CMS Algorithms to Draft Standard
>      Request advancement of CMS to Draft Standard
>      Request advancement of ESS to Draft Standard
>      Request advancement of CERT to Draft Standard
>      Request advancement of MSG to Draft Standard
>      Last call on RSA KEM algorithm specification
> 
> January 06
>      Submit RSA KEM algorithm specification as Proposed Standard
> 
> 




From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org  Thu Sep  2 13:11:55 2004
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Stefan:

Thanks for your reply.  I did understand that your proposal was optional and
need only be used by those interested in doing so.  I also understand your
reluctance to allow the scope to get out of hand...

I was trying to make two main points:

1.  The proposal offers one (optional) method to provide sMIMECapabilities:  by
inserting them directly in the cert.  I think it would be valuable to add the
ability to specify a location where sMIMECapabilities can be obtained (allow
dynamic methods to be specified). Zero, one or more of any of these methods
could be specified at the option of the organization issuing the certs.

2.  If you do 1. above, the dynamic methods that can be specified should ideally
be similar/integrated with the general methods (that is, methods available even
if you do not have a cert) available to obtain certs and paths as well (and this
was Jim Shaads old proposal).  And nowadays provisions for DNS + XKMS might be
included as noted by others in this list.  The reason for this is that in many
cases when you need sMIMECapabilities, you also need the cert and path as well
(this was the point I was trying to make at the end of my previous e-mail), and
we should minimize the proliferation of methods.


The problem with having the data in the cert itself is that if an enterprise
updates their desktop software and needs to update any of the sMIMECapabilities
information, they will need to re-issue ALL of their certs and this is a VERY
big thing for large organizations.  As far as using "silent" revocation/renewal
to limit CRL size, while this may be supported in some CA software, doing so
leads to other problems (e.g. having multiple apparently valid certs and
differentiating between them.  Potential security holes if the sMIMECapabilities
change has a security impact...)

By using an sMIMECapabilities distribution point, the information itself is no
longer in the cert, avoiding the cert reissue issue.  To take your point about
keeping it simple, the distribution point could return a null CMS message signed
by the CA or the end-entity (this provides additional options for the
enterprise); and to address other comments in the list, could point to a DNS SRV
for XKMS.  Again, none of these would be mandatory; as you say, the originating
enterprise selects the method(s) they choose to support. There may be an issue
about securely binding the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert - this
is discussed in Jim Schaads expired draft.

Somehow I wonder if a combination of your draft and an updated version of Jim's
(with less reliance on only the directory server method) would not be ideal??

Tony





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Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
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From: "Stefan Santesson" <stefans@microsoft.com>
To: "Tony Capel" <capel@comgate.com>, <ietf-smime@imc.org>
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In-line;

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com]
> Sent: den 2 september 2004 18:54
> To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org
> Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
> 
> Stefan:
> 
> Thanks for your reply.  I did understand that your proposal was
optional
> and
> need only be used by those interested in doing so.  I also understand
your
> reluctance to allow the scope to get out of hand...
> 
> I was trying to make two main points:
> 
> 1.  The proposal offers one (optional) method to provide
> sMIMECapabilities:  by
> inserting them directly in the cert.  I think it would be valuable to
add
> the
> ability to specify a location where sMIMECapabilities can be obtained
> (allow
> dynamic methods to be specified). Zero, one or more of any of these
> methods
> could be specified at the option of the organization issuing the
certs.
> 

[Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however not a
marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication of complexity.

sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you introduce storage
of dynamic data, then you need to specify the framework for how that
data would be authenticated. That is NOT a small thing.


> 2.  If you do 1. above, the dynamic methods that can be specified
should
> ideally
> be similar/integrated with the general methods (that is, methods
available
> even
> if you do not have a cert) available to obtain certs and paths as well
> (and this
> was Jim Shaads old proposal).

[Stefan] That is not how I read Jim's document. After a quick glance I
read Jim's document as a way to specify effectively in an S/MIME
message, what certificates can be used to encrypt to it's sender and
what sMIMECapabilities are tied to each listed certificate (represented
by a hash). It also touches on how you could include pointers in the
S/MIME message, pointing to the storage location of certificates.

So this does NOT solve how you would access dynamic authenticated data
PRIOR to the first S/MIME exchange between the parties.

> And nowadays provisions for DNS + XKMS
> might be
> included as noted by others in this list.  The reason for this is that
in
> many
> cases when you need sMIMECapabilities, you also need the cert and path
as
> well
> (this was the point I was trying to make at the end of my previous e-
> mail), and
> we should minimize the proliferation of methods.
> 

[Stefan] This makes it clear to me that we try to solve different
problems. The problem how to find certificates and their path is
important but it is definitely out of the scope of this work. I don't
say that I oppose work in that problem space but it is not part of what
this work item is set to accomplish. Tying sMIMECapabilities to other
specific key management protocols would IMO be a bad thing that would
lower the value and usability of this work.

> 
> The problem with having the data in the cert itself is that if an
> enterprise
> updates their desktop software and needs to update any of the
> sMIMECapabilities
> information, they will need to re-issue ALL of their certs and this is
a
> VERY
> big thing for large organizations.  As far as using "silent"
> revocation/renewal
> to limit CRL size, while this may be supported in some CA software,
doing
> so
> leads to other problems (e.g. having multiple apparently valid certs
and
> differentiating between them.  Potential security holes if the
> sMIMECapabilities
> change has a security impact...)
> 

[Stefan] Revocation and re-issuance might be a problem for some
environments but will not be a problem for others. So potential problems
in some environments should not stop its use in the many cases where it
is useful.

I can whiteness from real life experience that sMIMECapabilities in
certificates has been widely and successfully deployed without causing
any major problems. So we know that it works and that it brings value to
the use of S/MIME. It is a provable fact.

> By using an sMIMECapabilities distribution point, the information
itself
> is no
> longer in the cert, avoiding the cert reissue issue.  To take your
point
> about
> keeping it simple, the distribution point could return a null CMS
message
> signed
> by the CA or the end-entity (this provides additional options for the
> enterprise); and to address other comments in the list, could point to
a
> DNS SRV
> for XKMS.  Again, none of these would be mandatory; as you say, the
> originating
> enterprise selects the method(s) they choose to support. There may be
an
> issue
> about securely binding the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the
cert -
> this
> is discussed in Jim Schaads expired draft.
> 
> Somehow I wonder if a combination of your draft and an updated version
of
> Jim's
> (with less reliance on only the directory server method) would not be
> ideal??
> 

[Stefan] I'm not saying that dynamic storage of sMIMECapabilities must
be bad. I can definitely see benefits, but it should not be mixed with
the simple task to specify use of a single attribute in certificates
that is already well established and defined.

Going for dynamic storage is a major work that needs a careful thought
process to determine whether it is worth the efforts and whether it is a
proper response to real problems of S/MIME users.

Unless I got it totally wrong, I don't believe that Jim's draft will
provide the solution you are after here. But I could be wrong.

> Tony
> 




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Subject: PRUDENT BANK NIGERIA LIMITED, NEED YOUR SWIFT RESPONSE
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On Monday, February 3, 2003, a bomb blast explosion took place on the
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View the Link below:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/africa/02/03/lagos.explosion/index.html
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From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
To: housley@vigilsec.com, Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org
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Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> writes:

>1. Embedded systems may not have the rich set of functions that you are
>using here.

As the author of the crypto toolkit that runs on a larger range of embedded
systems than any other [0], I can state that this point is invalid.  I've got
code running on systems without a clock that nevertheless still have 
mktime() (OK, so you can't actually check the date against anything once
you've read it, but you can at least read it).  I've never encountered a 
system where reading a UTCTime is a problem.

Peter.

[0] Until someone else proves otherwise :-).



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From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
To: dpkemp@missi.ncsc.mil, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
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"David P. Kemp" <dpkemp@missi.ncsc.mil> writes:

>The one sentence omitted from what you quote below states that it DOES go beyond 
>2038.  

Yeah, sorry, it was late at night and I read through it very quickly.

>The reason for a binary attribute in the first place is primarily space 
>efficiency.

As Peter Sylvester has pointed out, in order to be compatible with existing
apps, you'd need to include *both* attributes (the TLS WG has just had a debate
about the 10-year old obsolete known-insecure SSLv2 protocol and why virtually
everything still has to support it by default for backwards-compatibility, so
you'll never get rid of the existing signing time). As a result, you won't save 
a few bytes in the time encoding, you'll double the space through having to use 
two different formats.

In addition the space saving is insignificant, a few bytes.  I can save the
same amount by not encoding the optional NULL parameter in algorithm 
identifiers, and that without breaking backwards compatibility like 
binary-time does.

If saving a few bytes really is so critically important then this should be
pursued by creating a new ASN.1 time type so that everyone may benefit from 
it.  If it's part of the standard time CHOICE then it can be used everywhere 
where UTC/GeneralisedTime is currently used.

Peter.



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Stefan,

I am re-using the e-mail from Tony to comment.

> Stefan:
> 
> Thanks for your reply.  I did understand that your proposal was optional and
> need only be used by those interested in doing so.  I also understand your
> reluctance to allow the scope to get out of hand...
> 
> I was trying to make two main points:
> 
> 1.  The proposal offers one (optional) method to provide sMIMECapabilities:  by
> inserting them directly in the cert.  I think it would be valuable to add the
> ability to specify a location where sMIMECapabilities can be obtained (allow
> dynamic methods to be specified). Zero, one or more of any of these methods
> could be specified at the option of the organization issuing the certs.

I also believe that placing the sMIMECapabilities directly within the 
certificate is a bad idea. The same encryption key may be used with other 
applications (e.g a virtual safe, a market place). If any of these 
applications is changing we would need to revoke the public key certificate. 
Attributes certificates have been invented to solve this issue.

It would be better to include INSTEAD (and thus not in ADDITION) a pointer 
to these sMIMECapabilities (and also vitualSafeCapabilities, 
marketPlaceCapabilities, etc ...)

> 2.  If you do 1. above, the dynamic methods that can be specified should ideally
> be similar/integrated with the general methods (that is, methods available even
> if you do not have a cert) available to obtain certs and paths as well (and this
> was Jim Shaads old proposal).  And nowadays provisions for DNS + XKMS might be
> included as noted by others in this list.  The reason for this is that in many
> cases when you need sMIMECapabilities, you also need the cert and path as well
> (this was the point I was trying to make at the end of my previous e-mail), and
> we should minimize the proliferation of methods.
> 
> 
> The problem with having the data in the cert itself is that if an enterprise
> updates their desktop software and needs to update any of the sMIMECapabilities
> information, they will need to re-issue ALL of their certs and this is a VERY
> big thing for large organizations.  As far as using "silent" revocation/renewal
> to limit CRL size, while this may be supported in some CA software, doing so
> leads to other problems (e.g. having multiple apparently valid certs and
> differentiating between them.  Potential security holes if the sMIMECapabilities
> change has a security impact...)
> 
> By using an sMIMECapabilities distribution point, the information itself is no
> longer in the cert, avoiding the cert reissue issue.  

Yes. This is the main idea.

Of course the next question is how to make sure that the sMIMECapabilities 
placed at that pointer are correct. They could be signed using a certificate 
indicated in the sMIMECapabilitiesDP (i.e. sMIMECapabilities Distribution 
Point). The signer of that structure could be the CA issuing the 
certificate, but does not need to be so.

The signed structure of the sMIMECapabilities would look like a special kind 
of Attribute Certificate, rather than a CMS signed message.

Denis

 > To take your point about
> keeping it simple, the distribution point could return a null CMS message signed
> by the CA or the end-entity (this provides additional options for the
> enterprise); and to address other comments in the list, could point to a DNS SRV
> for XKMS.  Again, none of these would be mandatory; as you say, the originating
> enterprise selects the method(s) they choose to support. There may be an issue
> about securely binding the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert - this
> is discussed in Jim Schaads expired draft.
> 
> Somehow I wonder if a combination of your draft and an updated version of Jim's
> (with less reliance on only the directory server method) would not be ideal??
> 
> Tony
> 
> 
> 




From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org  Fri Sep  3 08:42:24 2004
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Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
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From: "Stefan Santesson" <stefans@microsoft.com>
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Denis,

You basically repeat the same type of argumentation with I summarize as:

1) You confirm the need to in some way use information in a certificate
to help indicate capabilities of the subject

2) You point out that in some cases it is not suitable to put
capabilities directly in certificates since it may require too much
revocation and re-issuance of certificates.

3) You conclude that because of 2) we need to create an expanded work to
dynamically changeable capabilities structure. In addition to this you
suggest use of Attribute certificates to solve this expansion of scope.


My reply is the same again. I do not oppose the discussion of some kind
of dynamic solution for capabilities but it would be a magnitude more
complex to invent and specify and it would probably take years to
complete (my guess).

That should not stop us from doing the simple stuff when the simple
stuff is an adequate response to the need. Putting the current
sMIMECapabilities attribute in the cert is a well tested method that
works for the majority of cases.

My ambition and time commitment on this is only to complete that task
that was agreed at last IETF and added to the charter. If the S/MIME WG
whish to design an expanded solution for dynamic references to
sMIMECApabilities then I suggest that the WG discuss that in the context
of another new work item with another editor.

/Stefan
 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:Denis.Pinkas@bull.net]
> Sent: den 3 september 2004 11:05
> To: Stefan Santesson
> Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org
> Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
> 
> Stefan,
> 
> I am re-using the e-mail from Tony to comment.
> 
> > Stefan:
> >
> > Thanks for your reply.  I did understand that your proposal was
optional
> and
> > need only be used by those interested in doing so.  I also
understand
> your
> > reluctance to allow the scope to get out of hand...
> >
> > I was trying to make two main points:
> >
> > 1.  The proposal offers one (optional) method to provide
> sMIMECapabilities:  by
> > inserting them directly in the cert.  I think it would be valuable
to
> add the
> > ability to specify a location where sMIMECapabilities can be
obtained
> (allow
> > dynamic methods to be specified). Zero, one or more of any of these
> methods
> > could be specified at the option of the organization issuing the
certs.
> 
> I also believe that placing the sMIMECapabilities directly within the
> certificate is a bad idea. The same encryption key may be used with
other
> applications (e.g a virtual safe, a market place). If any of these
> applications is changing we would need to revoke the public key
> certificate.
> Attributes certificates have been invented to solve this issue.
> 
> It would be better to include INSTEAD (and thus not in ADDITION) a
pointer
> to these sMIMECapabilities (and also vitualSafeCapabilities,
> marketPlaceCapabilities, etc ...)
> 
> > 2.  If you do 1. above, the dynamic methods that can be specified
should
> ideally
> > be similar/integrated with the general methods (that is, methods
> available even
> > if you do not have a cert) available to obtain certs and paths as
well
> (and this
> > was Jim Shaads old proposal).  And nowadays provisions for DNS +
XKMS
> might be
> > included as noted by others in this list.  The reason for this is
that
> in many
> > cases when you need sMIMECapabilities, you also need the cert and
path
> as well
> > (this was the point I was trying to make at the end of my previous
e-
> mail), and
> > we should minimize the proliferation of methods.
> >
> >
> > The problem with having the data in the cert itself is that if an
> enterprise
> > updates their desktop software and needs to update any of the
> sMIMECapabilities
> > information, they will need to re-issue ALL of their certs and this
is a
> VERY
> > big thing for large organizations.  As far as using "silent"
> revocation/renewal
> > to limit CRL size, while this may be supported in some CA software,
> doing so
> > leads to other problems (e.g. having multiple apparently valid certs
and
> > differentiating between them.  Potential security holes if the
> sMIMECapabilities
> > change has a security impact...)
> >
> > By using an sMIMECapabilities distribution point, the information
itself
> is no
> > longer in the cert, avoiding the cert reissue issue.
> 
> Yes. This is the main idea.
> 
> Of course the next question is how to make sure that the
sMIMECapabilities
> placed at that pointer are correct. They could be signed using a
> certificate
> indicated in the sMIMECapabilitiesDP (i.e. sMIMECapabilities
Distribution
> Point). The signer of that structure could be the CA issuing the
> certificate, but does not need to be so.
> 
> The signed structure of the sMIMECapabilities would look like a
special
> kind
> of Attribute Certificate, rather than a CMS signed message.
> 
> Denis
> 
>  > To take your point about
> > keeping it simple, the distribution point could return a null CMS
> message signed
> > by the CA or the end-entity (this provides additional options for
the
> > enterprise); and to address other comments in the list, could point
to a
> DNS SRV
> > for XKMS.  Again, none of these would be mandatory; as you say, the
> originating
> > enterprise selects the method(s) they choose to support. There may
be an
> issue
> > about securely binding the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the
cert
> - this
> > is discussed in Jim Schaads expired draft.
> >
> > Somehow I wonder if a combination of your draft and an updated
version
> of Jim's
> > (with less reliance on only the directory server method) would not
be
> ideal??
> >
> > Tony
> >
> >
> >
> 




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Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
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Stefan,

> Denis,
> 
> You basically repeat the same type of argumentation with I summarize as:
> 
> 1) You confirm the need to in some way use information in a certificate
> to help indicate capabilities of the subject
> 
> 2) You point out that in some cases it is not suitable to put
> capabilities directly in certificates since it may require too much
> revocation and re-issuance of certificates.
> 
> 3) You conclude that because of 2) we need to create an expanded work to
> dynamically changeable capabilities structure. In addition to this you
> suggest use of Attribute certificates to solve this expansion of scope.

This is a nice summary.

> My reply is the same again. I do not oppose the discussion of some kind
> of dynamic solution for capabilities but it would be a magnitude more
> complex to invent and specify and it would probably take years to
> complete (my guess).

It is your guess. I would have a different guess. :-)

> That should not stop us from doing the simple stuff when the simple
> stuff is an adequate response to the need. Putting the current
> sMIMECapabilities attribute in the cert is a well tested method that
> works for the majority of cases.

It may work nicely in small environnements.

However, there is currently insufficient text in the security considerations 
section to highlight the need of revocation, the document is using the word 
renew:

    Certification Authorities should therefore *renew* a certificate
    including S/MIME Capabilities, if the subjects cryptographic
    capabilities changes in a way that is no longer compatible with the
    current certificate.

The security considerations section should mention that:

  1) this extension is "adequate", if the same key is not used with
     other encryption applications (and explain why),

  2) dynamic references would then be another solution to this problem.

Denis

> My ambition and time commitment on this is only to complete that task
> that was agreed at last IETF and added to the charter. If the S/MIME WG
> whish to design an expanded solution for dynamic references to
> sMIMECApabilities then I suggest that the WG discuss that in the context
> of another new work item with another editor.
> 
> /Stefan
>  
> 
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:Denis.Pinkas@bull.net]
>>Sent: den 3 september 2004 11:05
>>To: Stefan Santesson
>>Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org
>>Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
>>
>>Stefan,
>>
>>I am re-using the e-mail from Tony to comment.
>>
>>
>>>Stefan:
>>>
>>>Thanks for your reply.  I did understand that your proposal was
>>
> optional
> 
>>and
>>
>>>need only be used by those interested in doing so.  I also
>>
> understand
> 
>>your
>>
>>>reluctance to allow the scope to get out of hand...
>>>
>>>I was trying to make two main points:
>>>
>>>1.  The proposal offers one (optional) method to provide
>>
>>sMIMECapabilities:  by
>>
>>>inserting them directly in the cert.  I think it would be valuable
>>
> to
> 
>>add the
>>
>>>ability to specify a location where sMIMECapabilities can be
>>
> obtained
> 
>>(allow
>>
>>>dynamic methods to be specified). Zero, one or more of any of these
>>
>>methods
>>
>>>could be specified at the option of the organization issuing the
>>
> certs.
> 
>>I also believe that placing the sMIMECapabilities directly within the
>>certificate is a bad idea. The same encryption key may be used with
> 
> other
> 
>>applications (e.g a virtual safe, a market place). If any of these
>>applications is changing we would need to revoke the public key
>>certificate.
>>Attributes certificates have been invented to solve this issue.
>>
>>It would be better to include INSTEAD (and thus not in ADDITION) a
> 
> pointer
> 
>>to these sMIMECapabilities (and also vitualSafeCapabilities,
>>marketPlaceCapabilities, etc ...)
>>
>>
>>>2.  If you do 1. above, the dynamic methods that can be specified
>>
> should
> 
>>ideally
>>
>>>be similar/integrated with the general methods (that is, methods
>>
>>available even
>>
>>>if you do not have a cert) available to obtain certs and paths as
>>
> well
> 
>>(and this
>>
>>>was Jim Shaads old proposal).  And nowadays provisions for DNS +
>>
> XKMS
> 
>>might be
>>
>>>included as noted by others in this list.  The reason for this is
>>
> that
> 
>>in many
>>
>>>cases when you need sMIMECapabilities, you also need the cert and
>>
> path
> 
>>as well
>>
>>>(this was the point I was trying to make at the end of my previous
>>
> e-
> 
>>mail), and
>>
>>>we should minimize the proliferation of methods.
>>>
>>>
>>>The problem with having the data in the cert itself is that if an
>>
>>enterprise
>>
>>>updates their desktop software and needs to update any of the
>>
>>sMIMECapabilities
>>
>>>information, they will need to re-issue ALL of their certs and this
>>
> is a
> 
>>VERY
>>
>>>big thing for large organizations.  As far as using "silent"
>>
>>revocation/renewal
>>
>>>to limit CRL size, while this may be supported in some CA software,
>>
>>doing so
>>
>>>leads to other problems (e.g. having multiple apparently valid certs
>>
> and
> 
>>>differentiating between them.  Potential security holes if the
>>
>>sMIMECapabilities
>>
>>>change has a security impact...)
>>>
>>>By using an sMIMECapabilities distribution point, the information
>>
> itself
> 
>>is no
>>
>>>longer in the cert, avoiding the cert reissue issue.
>>
>>Yes. This is the main idea.
>>
>>Of course the next question is how to make sure that the
> 
> sMIMECapabilities
> 
>>placed at that pointer are correct. They could be signed using a
>>certificate
>>indicated in the sMIMECapabilitiesDP (i.e. sMIMECapabilities
> 
> Distribution
> 
>>Point). The signer of that structure could be the CA issuing the
>>certificate, but does not need to be so.
>>
>>The signed structure of the sMIMECapabilities would look like a
> 
> special
> 
>>kind
>>of Attribute Certificate, rather than a CMS signed message.
>>
>>Denis
>>
>> > To take your point about
>>
>>>keeping it simple, the distribution point could return a null CMS
>>
>>message signed
>>
>>>by the CA or the end-entity (this provides additional options for
>>
> the
> 
>>>enterprise); and to address other comments in the list, could point
>>
> to a
> 
>>DNS SRV
>>
>>>for XKMS.  Again, none of these would be mandatory; as you say, the
>>
>>originating
>>
>>>enterprise selects the method(s) they choose to support. There may
>>
> be an
> 
>>issue
>>
>>>about securely binding the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the
>>
> cert
> 
>>- this
>>
>>>is discussed in Jim Schaads expired draft.
>>>
>>>Somehow I wonder if a combination of your draft and an updated
>>
> version
> 
>>of Jim's
>>
>>>(with less reliance on only the directory server method) would not
>>
> be
> 
>>ideal??
>>
>>>Tony
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
> 
> 




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Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 15:28:35 +0100
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From: "Stefan Santesson" <stefans@microsoft.com>
To: "Denis Pinkas" <Denis.Pinkas@bull.net>
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Denis,

In-line;


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:Denis.Pinkas@bull.net]
> Sent: den 3 september 2004 15:51
> To: Stefan Santesson
> Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org
> Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
> 
> Stefan,
> 
> > Denis,
> >
> > You basically repeat the same type of argumentation with I summarize
as:
> >
> > 1) You confirm the need to in some way use information in a
certificate
> > to help indicate capabilities of the subject
> >
> > 2) You point out that in some cases it is not suitable to put
> > capabilities directly in certificates since it may require too much
> > revocation and re-issuance of certificates.
> >
> > 3) You conclude that because of 2) we need to create an expanded
work to
> > dynamically changeable capabilities structure. In addition to this
you
> > suggest use of Attribute certificates to solve this expansion of
scope.
> 
> This is a nice summary.
> 
[Stefan] Thanks, it makes the discussion easier :-)

> > My reply is the same again. I do not oppose the discussion of some
kind
> > of dynamic solution for capabilities but it would be a magnitude
more
> > complex to invent and specify and it would probably take years to
> > complete (my guess).
> 
> It is your guess. I would have a different guess. :-)

[Stefan] Of course this is a guess. But it is based on experience. It is
at least more complex than the logotype extension which took over 2
years to complete :-)
> 
> > That should not stop us from doing the simple stuff when the simple
> > stuff is an adequate response to the need. Putting the current
> > sMIMECapabilities attribute in the cert is a well tested method that
> > works for the majority of cases.
> 
> It may work nicely in small environnements.
> 

[Stefan] This works very well also in large organizations. And I know
this for a fact since I have it in my own S/MIME certificate and we are
50.000 users. It has been in use for a long time. It has proven to be
very useful and it has never caused any problems of the kind you
mention.

You can see it for your self in my certificate below:
(cut out and save as a file with .cer extension)

-----BEGIN CERTIFICATE-----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-----END CERTIFICATE-----
 

> However, there is currently insufficient text in the security
> considerations
> section to highlight the need of revocation, the document is using the
> word
> renew:
> 
>     Certification Authorities should therefore *renew* a certificate
>     including S/MIME Capabilities, if the subjects cryptographic
>     capabilities changes in a way that is no longer compatible with
the
>     current certificate.
> 
> The security considerations section should mention that:
> 
>   1) this extension is "adequate", if the same key is not used with
>      other encryption applications (and explain why),
> 
>   2) dynamic references would then be another solution to this
problem.
> 
[Stefan] Thanks for the valuable input. I have no problem updating and
clarifying the security considerations section. I'm however not sure I
understand what you mean by 1) but I'm positive that we can sort it out.

I definitely agree to 2)

> Denis
> 
> > My ambition and time commitment on this is only to complete that
task
> > that was agreed at last IETF and added to the charter. If the S/MIME
WG
> > whish to design an expanded solution for dynamic references to
> > sMIMECApabilities then I suggest that the WG discuss that in the
context
> > of another new work item with another editor.
> >
> > /Stefan
> >
> >
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:Denis.Pinkas@bull.net]
> >>Sent: den 3 september 2004 11:05
> >>To: Stefan Santesson
> >>Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org
> >>Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
> >>
> >>Stefan,
> >>
> >>I am re-using the e-mail from Tony to comment.
> >>
> >>
> >>>Stefan:
> >>>
> >>>Thanks for your reply.  I did understand that your proposal was
> >>
> > optional
> >
> >>and
> >>
> >>>need only be used by those interested in doing so.  I also
> >>
> > understand
> >
> >>your
> >>
> >>>reluctance to allow the scope to get out of hand...
> >>>
> >>>I was trying to make two main points:
> >>>
> >>>1.  The proposal offers one (optional) method to provide
> >>
> >>sMIMECapabilities:  by
> >>
> >>>inserting them directly in the cert.  I think it would be valuable
> >>
> > to
> >
> >>add the
> >>
> >>>ability to specify a location where sMIMECapabilities can be
> >>
> > obtained
> >
> >>(allow
> >>
> >>>dynamic methods to be specified). Zero, one or more of any of these
> >>
> >>methods
> >>
> >>>could be specified at the option of the organization issuing the
> >>
> > certs.
> >
> >>I also believe that placing the sMIMECapabilities directly within
the
> >>certificate is a bad idea. The same encryption key may be used with
> >
> > other
> >
> >>applications (e.g a virtual safe, a market place). If any of these
> >>applications is changing we would need to revoke the public key
> >>certificate.
> >>Attributes certificates have been invented to solve this issue.
> >>
> >>It would be better to include INSTEAD (and thus not in ADDITION) a
> >
> > pointer
> >
> >>to these sMIMECapabilities (and also vitualSafeCapabilities,
> >>marketPlaceCapabilities, etc ...)
> >>
> >>
> >>>2.  If you do 1. above, the dynamic methods that can be specified
> >>
> > should
> >
> >>ideally
> >>
> >>>be similar/integrated with the general methods (that is, methods
> >>
> >>available even
> >>
> >>>if you do not have a cert) available to obtain certs and paths as
> >>
> > well
> >
> >>(and this
> >>
> >>>was Jim Shaads old proposal).  And nowadays provisions for DNS +
> >>
> > XKMS
> >
> >>might be
> >>
> >>>included as noted by others in this list.  The reason for this is
> >>
> > that
> >
> >>in many
> >>
> >>>cases when you need sMIMECapabilities, you also need the cert and
> >>
> > path
> >
> >>as well
> >>
> >>>(this was the point I was trying to make at the end of my previous
> >>
> > e-
> >
> >>mail), and
> >>
> >>>we should minimize the proliferation of methods.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>The problem with having the data in the cert itself is that if an
> >>
> >>enterprise
> >>
> >>>updates their desktop software and needs to update any of the
> >>
> >>sMIMECapabilities
> >>
> >>>information, they will need to re-issue ALL of their certs and this
> >>
> > is a
> >
> >>VERY
> >>
> >>>big thing for large organizations.  As far as using "silent"
> >>
> >>revocation/renewal
> >>
> >>>to limit CRL size, while this may be supported in some CA software,
> >>
> >>doing so
> >>
> >>>leads to other problems (e.g. having multiple apparently valid
certs
> >>
> > and
> >
> >>>differentiating between them.  Potential security holes if the
> >>
> >>sMIMECapabilities
> >>
> >>>change has a security impact...)
> >>>
> >>>By using an sMIMECapabilities distribution point, the information
> >>
> > itself
> >
> >>is no
> >>
> >>>longer in the cert, avoiding the cert reissue issue.
> >>
> >>Yes. This is the main idea.
> >>
> >>Of course the next question is how to make sure that the
> >
> > sMIMECapabilities
> >
> >>placed at that pointer are correct. They could be signed using a
> >>certificate
> >>indicated in the sMIMECapabilitiesDP (i.e. sMIMECapabilities
> >
> > Distribution
> >
> >>Point). The signer of that structure could be the CA issuing the
> >>certificate, but does not need to be so.
> >>
> >>The signed structure of the sMIMECapabilities would look like a
> >
> > special
> >
> >>kind
> >>of Attribute Certificate, rather than a CMS signed message.
> >>
> >>Denis
> >>
> >> > To take your point about
> >>
> >>>keeping it simple, the distribution point could return a null CMS
> >>
> >>message signed
> >>
> >>>by the CA or the end-entity (this provides additional options for
> >>
> > the
> >
> >>>enterprise); and to address other comments in the list, could point
> >>
> > to a
> >
> >>DNS SRV
> >>
> >>>for XKMS.  Again, none of these would be mandatory; as you say, the
> >>
> >>originating
> >>
> >>>enterprise selects the method(s) they choose to support. There may
> >>
> > be an
> >
> >>issue
> >>
> >>>about securely binding the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the
> >>
> > cert
> >
> >>- this
> >>
> >>>is discussed in Jim Schaads expired draft.
> >>>
> >>>Somehow I wonder if a combination of your draft and an updated
> >>
> > version
> >
> >>of Jim's
> >>
> >>>(with less reliance on only the directory server method) would not
> >>
> > be
> >
> >>ideal??
> >>
> >>>Tony
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> 




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From: "Tony Capel" <capel@comgate.com>
To: "'Stefan Santesson'" <stefans@microsoft.com>, <ietf-smime@imc.org>
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Stefan:

Thanks.  I don't think this is such a big suggestion.

| [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however 
| not a marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication 
| of complexity.
| 
| sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you 
| introduce storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify 
| the framework for how that data would be authenticated. That 
| is NOT a small thing.

This does not require the server to create authenticated data on-line, the
returned data can be static (i.e. pre-signed by the CA or end entity, or an
attribute cert as suggested by Denis).  There is no difference in authentication
framework complexity than if this data were put in the cert itself.  Whoever (CA
or end entity ...) agrees that this is the list, they can create and sign the
null message or attribute cert at that time.  This fixed item is then stored in
whatever server is used.  It is only changed when the sMIMECapabilities are
changed (or when the signing keys change of course).


I believe Jim's objective in "Certificate Distribution Specification"
draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt, was to create something to be used to
distribute certificates AND sMIMECapabilities.  It also raises the issue of
whether there needs to be a secure binding between the sMIMECapabilities and the
specific certificate instance(s)* (and not just a binding between
sMIMECapabilities and the subjectName).

A bit more discussion of attribute certificates might be in order as well.


Tony

 
* I don't believe this is done in CMS/MSG implementations at the moment.  I
don't believe implementers have been told to retain any such binding even if
they had it - I suspect the sMIMECapabilities when cached by end systems is not
retained in signed form - and there is no cert hash to bind it to specific
cert(s) (more complicated for dual keypair).  sMIMECapabilities are probably
cached under subjectName (???).  Your proposed method inherently securely binds
the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert and this is a NICE THING, but
I am not sure it is needed.  If it is, then additional considerations are needed
for indirect methods if they are added as suggested.





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United Development International (UDVE.PK)<P>
                                  
                         Current Price: .036<P>
                                  
                  Gold Stock Super-Hot Mining Play<P>
                                  
   PriceWaterhouseCoopers analysts confirm worldwide mining boom!<P>
                                  
   Record mining PR0FITS and industry-wide merger mania positions<P>
                                  
   UDVE with huge reserves and expanded production to jump 500%.<P>

Our precious metals and mining HOT-PICKS for the last 12 months have
gained an average  of  476%?e  are  expecting earth-shattering news
that will send shockwaves through our latest pick UDVE.<P>

UDVE controls 3 of the largest  gold  mining  properties  in  Guyana
(South  America)  including a 25-mile property with proven, verified
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MILLI0N<P>

The Company is in a rapidly expanding state of gold production while
generating revenue and positive cash flow. UDVE has literally struck
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accelerated production and record breaking PR0FITS.<P>

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PriceWaterhouseCoopers' head  mining  analyst,  Paul  Murphy, stated
just last month; "We seem to be at the start  of  the  first  mining
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today's  healthy  mining  environment.   UDVE is viewed as a serious
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price for this undervalued  asset  play  has  not even come close to
reaching its true potential.<P>

Judging by the numbers, the value of UDVE's proven  reserves  should
push  the  share  price higher with greater upside expected to match
their fast-paced growth. UDVE has  been heating up the newswire with
batches  of  positive  developments  regarding  production,  reserve
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blatantly obvious that huge news  is  about to be released that will
have an explosive impact on shareholder value.<P>

This publication is an independent  news-letter  with  the  goal  of
giving  investors  the  necessary  knowledge  to  make  rational and
PR0FITABLE investment decisions.  This  publication does not provide
an analysis of the Company's financial position and is not an  0FFER
to  b?y or sell securities.  Investing in securities is speculative
and carries risk. It  is  RECC0MENDED  that any investment should be
made  after  consulting  with  your  investment  ADVIS0R  and  after
reviewing the financial statements of the company.  The  information
in  this  online report is believed to be reliable, but its accuracy
cannot be assured. Past  performance  does not insure similar future
results.  This is not  purported  to  be  a  complete  and  thorough
analysis of the featured company and RECC0MENDS a complete review of
the  Company's regulatory filings at sec.gov. The information herein
contains  future  looking  statements  and  information  within  the
meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933 and Section 21E
of  the  Securities  Exchange  Act  of  1934,  including  statements
regarding expected continual  growth  of  the  featured company. Any
statements that express  or  involve  discussions  with  respect  to
predictions,  expectations, beliefs, plans, projections, objectives,
goals,  assumptions  or  future   events   or  performance  are  not
statements of historical fact and may be future looking  statements.
Future  looking  statements are based on expectations, estimates and
projections at the  time  the  statements  are  made  that involve a
number of risks and uncertainties which could cause  actual  results
or  events  to  differ  materially from those presently anticipated.
Future looking statements in  this  action may be identified through
the  use  of  words  such  as  projects,  foresee,  expects,   will,
anticipates, estimates, believes, understands, or that by statements
indicating certain actions may, could, or might occur. The publisher
discloses  the  receipt  of  fourteen  thousand D0LLARS from a third
party, not an  officer,  director,  or  affiliate shareholder of the
company for the preparation of this online report. Be  aware  of  an
inherent  conflict  of interest resulting from such compensation due
to the fact that this is a paid publication. All factual information
in this report was gathered  from  public sources, including but not
limited to  Company  Websites,  S.E.C.  filings  and  Company  Press
Releases.  This  information is believed to be reliable but can make
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material  with  in   this   on-line   news-letter  constitutes  your
acceptance of these terms.<p>


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United Development International (UDVE.PK)<P>
                                  
                         Current Price: .036<P>
                                  
                  Gold Stock Super-Hot Mining Play<P>
                                  
   PriceWaterhouseCoopers analysts confirm worldwide mining boom!<P>
                                  
   Record mining PR0FITS and industry-wide merger mania positions<P>
                                  
   UDVE with huge reserves and expanded production to jump 500%.<P>

Our precious metals and mining HOT-PICKS for the last 12 months have
gained an average  of  476%?e  are  expecting earth-shattering news
that will send shockwaves through our latest pick UDVE.<P>

UDVE controls 3 of the largest  gold  mining  properties  in  Guyana
(South  America)  including a 25-mile property with proven, verified
reserves exceeding  400,000  ounces  of  gold  valued  at  over $100
MILLI0N<P>

The Company is in a rapidly expanding state of gold production while
generating revenue and positive cash flow. UDVE has literally struck
gold with major funding news announced last week that  provides  $13
MILLI0N  for  the  purchase  of additional mining equipment enabling
accelerated production and record breaking PR0FITS.<P>

UDVE's breakout year is perfectly timed and will not go unnoticed as
PriceWaterhouseCoopers' head  mining  analyst,  Paul  Murphy, stated
just last month; "We seem to be at the start  of  the  first  mining
boom  of  the  twenty-  first century." This statement accompanied a
PriceWaterhouse report detailing the  record doubling of PR0FITS for
mining companies in 2003 with an even brighter outlook for 2004.<P>

Hot gold stocks are no longer taking a back seat  while  merger  and
takeover  activity is on the rise. Investors have scored major gains
on  several  recent   highly-publicized   battles   for  control  of
well-positioned gold producers with similar structure to UDVE.<P>

REUTERS Newswire reported last quarter that mergers and acquisitions
in gold mining companies are being completed  at  a  record  frantic
pace  with  the expectation of this trend increasing. Large-cap fund
managers and securities analysts agree  that the junior mining GR0UP
is especially more vulnerable to a b?y-out or takeover scenario  in
today's  healthy  mining  environment.   UDVE is viewed as a serious
takeover target based on their $140 MILLI0N revenue forecast, as the
price for this undervalued  asset  play  has  not even come close to
reaching its true potential.<P>

Judging by the numbers, the value of UDVE's proven  reserves  should
push  the  share  price higher with greater upside expected to match
their fast-paced growth. UDVE has  been heating up the newswire with
batches  of  positive  developments  regarding  production,  reserve
valuations, and  additional  property  acquisitions.  Combine  these
activities  with  classic  evidence of 60- day accumulation and it's
blatantly obvious that huge news  is  about to be released that will
have an explosive impact on shareholder value.<P>

This publication is an independent  news-letter  with  the  goal  of
giving  investors  the  necessary  knowledge  to  make  rational and
PR0FITABLE investment decisions.  This  publication does not provide
an analysis of the Company's financial position and is not an  0FFER
to  b?y or sell securities.  Investing in securities is speculative
and carries risk. It  is  RECC0MENDED  that any investment should be
made  after  consulting  with  your  investment  ADVIS0R  and  after
reviewing the financial statements of the company.  The  information
in  this  online report is believed to be reliable, but its accuracy
cannot be assured. Past  performance  does not insure similar future
results.  This is not  purported  to  be  a  complete  and  thorough
analysis of the featured company and RECC0MENDS a complete review of
the  Company's regulatory filings at sec.gov. The information herein
contains  future  looking  statements  and  information  within  the
meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933 and Section 21E
of  the  Securities  Exchange  Act  of  1934,  including  statements
regarding expected continual  growth  of  the  featured company. Any
statements that express  or  involve  discussions  with  respect  to
predictions,  expectations, beliefs, plans, projections, objectives,
goals,  assumptions  or  future   events   or  performance  are  not
statements of historical fact and may be future looking  statements.
Future  looking  statements are based on expectations, estimates and
projections at the  time  the  statements  are  made  that involve a
number of risks and uncertainties which could cause  actual  results
or  events  to  differ  materially from those presently anticipated.
Future looking statements in  this  action may be identified through
the  use  of  words  such  as  projects,  foresee,  expects,   will,
anticipates, estimates, believes, understands, or that by statements
indicating certain actions may, could, or might occur. The publisher
discloses  the  receipt  of  fourteen  thousand D0LLARS from a third
party, not an  officer,  director,  or  affiliate shareholder of the
company for the preparation of this online report. Be  aware  of  an
inherent  conflict  of interest resulting from such compensation due
to the fact that this is a paid publication. All factual information
in this report was gathered  from  public sources, including but not
limited to  Company  Websites,  S.E.C.  filings  and  Company  Press
Releases.  This  information is believed to be reliable but can make
no absolute certainty as to its accuracy or completeness. Use of the
material  with  in   this   on-line   news-letter  constitutes  your
acceptance of these terms.<p>


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Tony,

Yes it looks like a small cute thing doesn't it. Dynamic
sMIMECapabilities!

Well, I'm damaged by experience and I can really see this take off in a
million directions.

First you will have the issue to sort out in what format and structure
you want to handle the data, meta data, signatures etc for the dynamic
capabilities, then you need to sort out how you will structure the
extension referring to this data in certificates, and then also sort out
what schemas can and cannot be used to obtain the data, whether it is
http, https, ldap, ftp.

Then we have already heard voices that we might need to distinguish
between capabilities for different applications and then we need to
define how we identify applications. Why not then argue about how this
data should be signed and if there might be a reason to let different
entities sign different parts of the capabilities data.

Then we can discuss how we would refer to the certificates used to
validate signatures on these signatures and what we must do to allow
dynamic linking to certificates in case some certificates gets revoked
or renewed.

And I have yet not even touched the aspect of attribute certificates
whether they will be or not be, and how that would be if it is.... 

I can't prove that this will take time but I'm willing to make a bet:-)

What I say is that we should not hold back the simple and straight
forward use of an existing, well defined data structure.

If this WG whish to solve dynamic access to authenticated application
oriented sMIMECapabilities, then it deserves it own project.

/Stefan

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com]
> Sent: den 3 september 2004 17:42
> To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org
> Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
> 
> Stefan:
> 
> Thanks.  I don't think this is such a big suggestion.
> 
> | [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however
> | not a marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication
> | of complexity.
> |
> | sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you
> | introduce storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify
> | the framework for how that data would be authenticated. That
> | is NOT a small thing.
> 
> This does not require the server to create authenticated data on-line,
the
> returned data can be static (i.e. pre-signed by the CA or end entity,
or
> an
> attribute cert as suggested by Denis).  There is no difference in
> authentication
> framework complexity than if this data were put in the cert itself.
> Whoever (CA
> or end entity ...) agrees that this is the list, they can create and
sign
> the
> null message or attribute cert at that time.  This fixed item is then
> stored in
> whatever server is used.  It is only changed when the
sMIMECapabilities
> are
> changed (or when the signing keys change of course).
> 
> 
> I believe Jim's objective in "Certificate Distribution Specification"
> draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt, was to create something to be used
to
> distribute certificates AND sMIMECapabilities.  It also raises the
issue
> of
> whether there needs to be a secure binding between the
sMIMECapabilities
> and the
> specific certificate instance(s)* (and not just a binding between
> sMIMECapabilities and the subjectName).
> 
> A bit more discussion of attribute certificates might be in order as
well.
> 
> 
> Tony
> 
> 
> * I don't believe this is done in CMS/MSG implementations at the
moment.
> I
> don't believe implementers have been told to retain any such binding
even
> if
> they had it - I suspect the sMIMECapabilities when cached by end
systems
> is not
> retained in signed form - and there is no cert hash to bind it to
specific
> cert(s) (more complicated for dual keypair).  sMIMECapabilities are
> probably
> cached under subjectName (???).  Your proposed method inherently
securely
> binds
> the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert and this is a NICE
> THING, but
> I am not sure it is needed.  If it is, then additional considerations
are
> needed
> for indirect methods if they are added as suggested.
> 




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Peter Gutmann wrote:

>As Peter Sylvester has pointed out, in order to be compatible with existing
>apps, you'd need to include *both* attributes (the TLS WG has just had a debate
>about the 10-year old obsolete known-insecure SSLv2 protocol and why virtually
>everything still has to support it by default for backwards-compatibility, so
>you'll never get rid of the existing signing time). As a result, you won't save 
>a few bytes in the time encoding, you'll double the space through having to use 
>two different formats.
>

You read past the part about this being useful for CMS but not for 
S/MIME.   The situations where saving a few bytes is useful occur when 
1) the objects being signed are small, 2) signature values are small 
(i.e. DSA/ECDSA, not RSA), and 3) encoding overhead is small (i.e. PER, 
not BER/DER).  There are no existing applications in this space, and 
thus no backwards compatibilty issues.  But CMS  and a newly defined 
attribute can be applied to future applications without having any 
impact on existing apps.

The other Peter's suggestion:

    Time ::= CHOICE {
        utcTime          UTCTime,
        generalizedTime  GeneralizedTime,
	epochSeconds     INTEGER}

is fine with me, but I'm not sure existing applications would deal with 
an unrecognized CHOICE value as gracefully as they would with an 
unrecognized attribute.  To avoid problems, the S/MIME -msg spec would 
have to state that epochSeconds MUST NOT be used by sending applications.

Dave



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From: "Tony Capel" <capel@comgate.com>
To: "'Stefan Santesson'" <stefans@microsoft.com>, <ietf-smime@imc.org>
Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
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Stefan:

I fully understand your reluctance (which I share) for proliferation of scope.
Please bear with me.

Your proposal requires an extension to the X.509 certificate syntax, and it
seems you have preliminary agreement from PKIX that S/MIME WG can do that.  This
is very good (and I am humbled by your ability to do that!), but we should make
sure we exploit this opportunity well, so we do not have to return to the well
too often ;-).  To do that we need to consider what is quick and simple to do
today and also where we might go.  So I think this discussion now is valuable.

I cannot agree that this is complex, although I agree it CAN be made complex as
you demonstrate.

The model here is the CRLDistribution point (with all its warts).  Those guys
did not worry about whether the CRL would be available by LDAP, HTTP, SMTP, or
whatever when they defined it.  They only worried about what the CRL format was
to be.  In our case I propose we already have a format:  a null signed message.
Maybe Denis will suggest an attribute certificate - but that can be carried in a
null signed message too.  I suspect that if I posted a null signed message on a
website (and configured the HTTP content type correctly) it might even work
today (??).  And frankly, if an organization is already distributing CRL's by
whatever method, allowing the same infrastructure to be used to provide
sMIMECapabilities in a null signed message is not much more work (and it will
also provide the full cert path, attribute certs, etc. if needed!).  The server
just responds with a static null signed item.  Processing on receipt is the same
as the processing already implemented for incoming signed messages.


I think there is a danger if we only propose to PKIX (and X.509) folks that the
only way we can solve the sMIMECapabilities "problem" is just to stick all the
sMIMECapabilities into the cert.  I think we will get a negative reaction.  If
it is one option where there are other options which are a bit more efficient,
we have a better chance.  I have also mentioned that we should make the
extension more application-agnostic, I think this will also make it more
palatable, but that's another thread....

Tony


| -----Original Message-----
| From: Stefan Santesson [mailto:stefans@microsoft.com] 
| Sent: September 3, 2004 1:58 PM
| To: Tony Capel; ietf-smime@imc.org
| Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
| 
| 
| Tony,
| 
| Yes it looks like a small cute thing doesn't it. Dynamic 
| sMIMECapabilities!
| 
| Well, I'm damaged by experience and I can really see this 
| take off in a million directions.
| 
| First you will have the issue to sort out in what format and 
| structure you want to handle the data, meta data, signatures 
| etc for the dynamic capabilities, then you need to sort out 
| how you will structure the extension referring to this data 
| in certificates, and then also sort out what schemas can and 
| cannot be used to obtain the data, whether it is http, https, 
| ldap, ftp.
| 
| Then we have already heard voices that we might need to 
| distinguish between capabilities for different applications 
| and then we need to define how we identify applications. Why 
| not then argue about how this data should be signed and if 
| there might be a reason to let different entities sign 
| different parts of the capabilities data.
| 
| Then we can discuss how we would refer to the certificates 
| used to validate signatures on these signatures and what we 
| must do to allow dynamic linking to certificates in case some 
| certificates gets revoked or renewed.
| 
| And I have yet not even touched the aspect of attribute 
| certificates whether they will be or not be, and how that 
| would be if it is.... 
| 
| I can't prove that this will take time but I'm willing to 
| make a bet:-)
| 
| What I say is that we should not hold back the simple and 
| straight forward use of an existing, well defined data structure.
| 
| If this WG whish to solve dynamic access to authenticated 
| application oriented sMIMECapabilities, then it deserves it 
| own project.
| 
| /Stefan
| 
| > -----Original Message-----
| > From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com]
| > Sent: den 3 september 2004 17:42
| > To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org
| > Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
| > 
| > Stefan:
| > 
| > Thanks.  I don't think this is such a big suggestion.
| > 
| > | [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however not a 
| > | marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication of 
| > | complexity.
| > |
| > | sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you introduce 
| > | storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify the 
| framework for 
| > | how that data would be authenticated. That is NOT a small thing.
| > 
| > This does not require the server to create authenticated 
| data on-line,
| the
| > returned data can be static (i.e. pre-signed by the CA or 
| end entity,
| or
| > an
| > attribute cert as suggested by Denis).  There is no difference in 
| > authentication framework complexity than if this data were 
| put in the 
| > cert itself. Whoever (CA
| > or end entity ...) agrees that this is the list, they can create and
| sign
| > the
| > null message or attribute cert at that time.  This fixed 
| item is then 
| > stored in whatever server is used.  It is only changed when the
| sMIMECapabilities
| > are
| > changed (or when the signing keys change of course).
| > 
| > 
| > I believe Jim's objective in "Certificate Distribution 
| Specification" 
| > draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt, was to create something to be used
| to
| > distribute certificates AND sMIMECapabilities.  It also raises the
| issue
| > of
| > whether there needs to be a secure binding between the
| sMIMECapabilities
| > and the
| > specific certificate instance(s)* (and not just a binding between 
| > sMIMECapabilities and the subjectName).
| > 
| > A bit more discussion of attribute certificates might be in order as
| well.
| > 
| > 
| > Tony
| > 
| > 
| > * I don't believe this is done in CMS/MSG implementations at the
| moment.
| > I
| > don't believe implementers have been told to retain any such binding
| even
| > if
| > they had it - I suspect the sMIMECapabilities when cached by end
| systems
| > is not
| > retained in signed form - and there is no cert hash to bind it to
| specific
| > cert(s) (more complicated for dual keypair).  sMIMECapabilities are 
| > probably cached under subjectName (???).  Your proposed method 
| > inherently
| securely
| > binds
| > the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert and this 
| is a NICE 
| > THING, but I am not sure it is needed.  If it is, then additional 
| > considerations
| are
| > needed
| > for indirect methods if they are added as suggested.
| > 
| 
| 





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Tony,

I'm sorry, but I can't get away from the fact that I believe that you
oversimplify this issue.

Even if you do get passed the format issue by using a null signed
message I see an immediate problem in sorting out WHO is the signer of
the null signed message.

If you force the certified subject to be the signer (which you probably
need to if it is to work according to existing principles) then the
solution will be practically useless since you loose the ability to
automate the process to generate and distribute capabilities.

If you let the certificate issuer sign the null signed message on behalf
of the subject, then you probably need to define how you specify in the
message who's capabilities that are defined in the message and now we
have opened the can of worms for other options and variants as well.

And then you still need to define a new extension to point to this data.

Another problem is storage location and its automation. CRL is easily
configurable in a system because one CA has a limited set of CRLs to
produce (mostly only one) but here we have a concept where you store at
least one object per subject, and maybe many. And this makes
implementation far more complex than CRL storage and may include aspects
such as directory schema expansion and innovation to manage users with
renewed certs or multiple valid certs.

Comparing with CRLs are probably not that good to prove your point since
CRLs actually are enormously complex if you study all options with
segmented scope, indirect CRLs, delta CRLs, Revocation reasons,
revocation or hold status, invalidity dates and renewal frequencies,
etc..... A perfect example how the task to specify a signed list of
serial numbers expanded to Goliat's proportions.

The current draft doesn't require any new object identifiers; it is just
making use of an already defined data structure for sMIMECapabilities to
be used as certificate extension. Easy and simple!

I want to repeat that I'm NOT principally opposed towards discussing
good innovative solutions to solve dynamic capabilities expression, but
I still claim that it is too complex to mix with this simple spec, which
should be done before end of this year.

There is no reason why we need to cover dynamic capabilities in the same
RFC. You can't use the same extension format anyway since the format of
the current spec use the already established structure for the
sMIMECapabilities attribute. This can't be changed to include links to
dynamic data. You need to do that in a new extension anyway.

If this WG wants to do dynamic capabilities of certificates it is
perfectly OK to do that in a separate RFC.

And I'm not the guy to lead that effort.

Maybe you are? :-)

Stefan Santesson
Microsoft Security Center of Excellence (SCOE)
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com]
> Sent: den 3 september 2004 22:18
> To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org
> Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
> 
> Stefan:
> 
> I fully understand your reluctance (which I share) for proliferation
of
> scope.
> Please bear with me.
> 
> Your proposal requires an extension to the X.509 certificate syntax,
and
> it
> seems you have preliminary agreement from PKIX that S/MIME WG can do
that.
> This
> is very good (and I am humbled by your ability to do that!), but we
should
> make
> sure we exploit this opportunity well, so we do not have to return to
the
> well
> too often ;-).  To do that we need to consider what is quick and
simple to
> do
> today and also where we might go.  So I think this discussion now is
> valuable.
> 
> I cannot agree that this is complex, although I agree it CAN be made
> complex as
> you demonstrate.
> 
> The model here is the CRLDistribution point (with all its warts).
Those
> guys
> did not worry about whether the CRL would be available by LDAP, HTTP,
> SMTP, or
> whatever when they defined it.  They only worried about what the CRL
> format was
> to be.  In our case I propose we already have a format:  a null signed
> message.
> Maybe Denis will suggest an attribute certificate - but that can be
> carried in a
> null signed message too.  I suspect that if I posted a null signed
message
> on a
> website (and configured the HTTP content type correctly) it might even
> work
> today (??).  And frankly, if an organization is already distributing
CRL's
> by
> whatever method, allowing the same infrastructure to be used to
provide
> sMIMECapabilities in a null signed message is not much more work (and
it
> will
> also provide the full cert path, attribute certs, etc. if needed!).
The
> server
> just responds with a static null signed item.  Processing on receipt
is
> the same
> as the processing already implemented for incoming signed messages.
> 
> 
> I think there is a danger if we only propose to PKIX (and X.509) folks
> that the
> only way we can solve the sMIMECapabilities "problem" is just to stick
all
> the
> sMIMECapabilities into the cert.  I think we will get a negative
reaction.
> If
> it is one option where there are other options which are a bit more
> efficient,
> we have a better chance.  I have also mentioned that we should make
the
> extension more application-agnostic, I think this will also make it
more
> palatable, but that's another thread....
> 
> Tony
> 
> 
> | -----Original Message-----
> | From: Stefan Santesson [mailto:stefans@microsoft.com]
> | Sent: September 3, 2004 1:58 PM
> | To: Tony Capel; ietf-smime@imc.org
> | Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
> |
> |
> | Tony,
> |
> | Yes it looks like a small cute thing doesn't it. Dynamic
> | sMIMECapabilities!
> |
> | Well, I'm damaged by experience and I can really see this
> | take off in a million directions.
> |
> | First you will have the issue to sort out in what format and
> | structure you want to handle the data, meta data, signatures
> | etc for the dynamic capabilities, then you need to sort out
> | how you will structure the extension referring to this data
> | in certificates, and then also sort out what schemas can and
> | cannot be used to obtain the data, whether it is http, https,
> | ldap, ftp.
> |
> | Then we have already heard voices that we might need to
> | distinguish between capabilities for different applications
> | and then we need to define how we identify applications. Why
> | not then argue about how this data should be signed and if
> | there might be a reason to let different entities sign
> | different parts of the capabilities data.
> |
> | Then we can discuss how we would refer to the certificates
> | used to validate signatures on these signatures and what we
> | must do to allow dynamic linking to certificates in case some
> | certificates gets revoked or renewed.
> |
> | And I have yet not even touched the aspect of attribute
> | certificates whether they will be or not be, and how that
> | would be if it is....
> |
> | I can't prove that this will take time but I'm willing to
> | make a bet:-)
> |
> | What I say is that we should not hold back the simple and
> | straight forward use of an existing, well defined data structure.
> |
> | If this WG whish to solve dynamic access to authenticated
> | application oriented sMIMECapabilities, then it deserves it
> | own project.
> |
> | /Stefan
> |
> | > -----Original Message-----
> | > From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com]
> | > Sent: den 3 september 2004 17:42
> | > To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org
> | > Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
> | >
> | > Stefan:
> | >
> | > Thanks.  I don't think this is such a big suggestion.
> | >
> | > | [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however not a
> | > | marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication of
> | > | complexity.
> | > |
> | > | sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you introduce
> | > | storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify the
> | framework for
> | > | how that data would be authenticated. That is NOT a small thing.
> | >
> | > This does not require the server to create authenticated
> | data on-line,
> | the
> | > returned data can be static (i.e. pre-signed by the CA or
> | end entity,
> | or
> | > an
> | > attribute cert as suggested by Denis).  There is no difference in
> | > authentication framework complexity than if this data were
> | put in the
> | > cert itself. Whoever (CA
> | > or end entity ...) agrees that this is the list, they can create
and
> | sign
> | > the
> | > null message or attribute cert at that time.  This fixed
> | item is then
> | > stored in whatever server is used.  It is only changed when the
> | sMIMECapabilities
> | > are
> | > changed (or when the signing keys change of course).
> | >
> | >
> | > I believe Jim's objective in "Certificate Distribution
> | Specification"
> | > draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt, was to create something to be
used
> | to
> | > distribute certificates AND sMIMECapabilities.  It also raises the
> | issue
> | > of
> | > whether there needs to be a secure binding between the
> | sMIMECapabilities
> | > and the
> | > specific certificate instance(s)* (and not just a binding between
> | > sMIMECapabilities and the subjectName).
> | >
> | > A bit more discussion of attribute certificates might be in order
as
> | well.
> | >
> | >
> | > Tony
> | >
> | >
> | > * I don't believe this is done in CMS/MSG implementations at the
> | moment.
> | > I
> | > don't believe implementers have been told to retain any such
binding
> | even
> | > if
> | > they had it - I suspect the sMIMECapabilities when cached by end
> | systems
> | > is not
> | > retained in signed form - and there is no cert hash to bind it to
> | specific
> | > cert(s) (more complicated for dual keypair).  sMIMECapabilities
are
> | > probably cached under subjectName (???).  Your proposed method
> | > inherently
> | securely
> | > binds
> | > the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert and this
> | is a NICE
> | > THING, but I am not sure it is needed.  If it is, then additional
> | > considerations
> | are
> | > needed
> | > for indirect methods if they are added as suggested.
> | >
> |
> |
> 




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Thanks for this new information.  However, i am aware of smartcard 
environments without mktime().

Russ

At 12:14 AM 9/3/2004, Peter Gutmann wrote:
>Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> writes:
>
> >1. Embedded systems may not have the rich set of functions that you are
> >using here.
>
>As the author of the crypto toolkit that runs on a larger range of embedded
>systems than any other [0], I can state that this point is invalid.  I've got
>code running on systems without a clock that nevertheless still have
>mktime() (OK, so you can't actually check the date against anything once
>you've read it, but you can at least read it).  I've never encountered a
>system where reading a UTCTime is a problem.
>
>Peter.
>
>[0] Until someone else proves otherwise :-).



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From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
To: dpkemp@missi.ncsc.mil, ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
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"David P. Kemp" <dpkemp@missi.ncsc.mil> writes:

>There are no existing applications in this space

In other words in the 20-odd years that ASN.1 has been around, this pressing
need to save a handful of bytes in time encodings has never been an issue.
This suggests a simple solution...

The main reason why I object to something that's mostly just a gratuitously
incompatible re-encoding of an existing field is because it's being pushed as
a standards-track document.  Because of this, users will demand that it be
supported (even though they have no idea why they need it) simply because it's
a standards-track RFC, and it wouldn't have been made standards-track if there
wasn't some reason for having it even if we don't know what it is.
Implementors then have to support yet another attribute, yet another date
format, double the size of the date data in sigs because of the nead to
support both the existing and new format, act in some appropriate manner when
the two dates disagree (actually from existing experience with apps that
deliberately set inconsistent times in signed data that allows multiple time
fields, nothing ever checks this, they just pick one or the other date
arbitrarily), etc etc etc.

Now as you say above, the demand for this to date has been zero.  This
suggests that the correct track for the new time encoding is either
"Experimental" or "grab a private OID and go for it", to match the actual
demand from users.

Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> writes:

>However, i am aware of smartcard environments without mktime().

Since they are presumably also without a RTC (thus making the inability to
convert a UTCTime moot, since there's nothing to check it against), this
wouldn't appear to be a real problem.

(I have been informed in private mail of the existence of several C one-liners
 (and at least one in Fortran, this problem has been studied for awhile) to
 convert the ASN.1-style ASCII date to a binary format, so it's likely that
 the additional code needed to handle binary times would entail more overhead
 than a basic mktime()-equivalent).

Peter.



From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org  Sun Sep  5 03:34:03 2004
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From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
To: ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
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I wrote:

>In other words in the 20-odd years that ASN.1 has been around, this pressing
>need to save a handful of bytes in time encodings has never been an issue.
>This suggests a simple solution...

Thinking about this a bit more, if the goal is to save space, why not combine
all of the mandatory attributes into a single meta-attribute:

compactAttributes ::= SEQUENCE {
  signingTime    GeneralisedTime,
  contentType    OBJECT IDENTIFIER,
  messageDigest  OCTET STRING
  }

This would save many, many times as much space as binaryTime, and considerably
simplify decoding, since there's only one meta-attribute that contains all of
the signing attributes, so you eliminate all of the extra OIDs and several
layers of encoding wrappers around the invidual attributes.

(And I'd still have this as Experimental, pending any actual user demand for 
 it).

Peter.



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> 
> Thanks for this new information.  However, i am aware of smartcard 
> environments without mktime().

Who needs mktime to convert an Z-zone Generalizedtime or UTCTime to
some binary value? 

The example that I have shown used gmtime, this is certainly not
a complex function, it is just a small real thing.


> 
> Russ
> 
> At 12:14 AM 9/3/2004, Peter Gutmann wrote:
> >Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> writes:
> >
> > >1. Embedded systems may not have the rich set of functions that you are
> > >using here.
> >
> >As the author of the crypto toolkit that runs on a larger range of embedded
> >systems than any other [0], I can state that this point is invalid.  I've got
> >code running on systems without a clock that nevertheless still have
> >mktime() (OK, so you can't actually check the date against anything once
> >you've read it, but you can at least read it).  I've never encountered a
> >system where reading a UTCTime is a problem.
> >
> >Peter.
> >
> >[0] Until someone else proves otherwise :-).
> 
> 



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> You read past the part about this being useful for CMS but not for 
> S/MIME.   The situations where saving a few bytes is useful occur when 
> 1) the objects being signed are small, 2) signature values are small 
> (i.e. DSA/ECDSA, not RSA), and 3) encoding overhead is small (i.e. PER, 
> not BER/DER).  There are no existing applications in this space, and 
> thus no backwards compatibilty issues.  But CMS  and a newly defined 
> attribute can be applied to future applications without having any 
> impact on existing apps.

I don't think we are at a point to discuss whether some piece of
additional data creates or does not create in which area. 

- The proposed indication presents information that is already
  being carried in another indication.

- The proposed indication doesn't provide anything new. 

- No argument of a concrete need has been given. 

- All arguments concerning complexity of treatment are extreemly weak
  even without comparing to what has to be done already for CMS SignedData

- If one assumes the availability of a PER coder/decoder and a DER
  signature creation/validation at the same time, then complexity
  is even less an argument. 

- If someone has problems with embedded systems that maybe some
  very simple subset of BER and a much more limited syntax than
  SignedData could be used, why stay with CMS at all? 

- If you want to save data, then code all relevant information inside
  data, and not within attributes. 

- unless there is an existing example for that use, included as
  an example inside the text, I don't think that we are even at
  an experimental state.

- The proposition below about an alternative way does not mean
  at all that I think that the whole concept is useful at all, 
  or in other words, I just made a joke. 

> 
> The other Peter's suggestion:
> 
>     Time ::= CHOICE {
>         utcTime          UTCTime,
>         generalizedTime  GeneralizedTime,
> 	epochSeconds     INTEGER}
> 
> is fine with me, but I'm not sure existing applications would deal with 
> an unrecognized CHOICE value as gracefully as they would with an 
> unrecognized attribute.  To avoid problems, the S/MIME -msg spec would 
> have to state that epochSeconds MUST NOT be used by sending applications.

I guess you are right with your observation about potential
problems (cf my last point above).
 



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Greta Daugherty,<p>
Introducing 'International P harmacy Outlets Inc.'<p>
GET IN "IPCY" NOW! HUGE NEWS FOR "IPCY" expected soon<p>
IPCY will explode on Tuesday and Wednesday !<p>
Watch out for it . Jump on board before.. Just like you did with EMTK<p>
Micro CapMarketing PLAY OF THE WEEK for our invest0rs is International Pharmacy Outlets Inc. IPCY <p>
If you tuned in lastMonday you would have seen our last week PLAY OF THE WEEK, EMTK go from Fridays's close of 10cents to a high of .95 on Thursday. That's a 800% gain in just three days. <p>
PLAY OF THE WEEK tracks st0cks on downward trends, foresees bottom and recommends up. <p>
IPCY is our next profile<p>
Speculative Target price in next 1-2 DAYS: $0.24 - 0.29<p>
Speculative Target price in next 20-30 DAYS: $0.39<p>
International Pharmacy Outlets, Inc. is publicly traded holding company whose stock is traded over the counter under the trading symbol: IPCY. The company operates through its wholly owned subsidiaries, Caribbean Marketing Agencies, Ltd. (CMA) and AccessRX C.S. S.A. CMA is a wholesale importer/exporter of supplies and a marketing and advertising agency providing services to retail pharmacies and mail order centers located throughout the Caribbean that desire to sell  to Caribbean tourists using the company's proprietary systems and turnkey marketing and customer support programs. AccessRx is a pharmaceutical customer service center operating a multi-lingual 24-hour call center for CMA's retail pharmacy and mail order pharmacy clients.<p>
In July 2003, CMA entered into a five-year exclusive distributorship for selected countries in the Caribbean for Cipla Corporation,and the entire Caribbean for their affiliate, Nebumed. The exclusive agreement also includes duty shops worldwide, cruise ships worldwide, native American Indian reservations and U.S. military bases. CMA sells to pharmaceutical distributors, retail pharmacies, medical centers, hospitals, and government agencies throughout the Caribbean. CMA also provides marketing and advertising services targeted to Caribbean tourists traveling on cruise ships or staying in Caribbean resort hotels. CMA also licenses Caribbean retail and mail order pharmacies to provide mail order fulfillment services to Caribbean tourists. AccessRx was acquired to provide turnkey customer service for CMA licensed pharmacy outlets carrying its wholesale pharmaceutical products.<p>
St0ck Summary<p>
International Pharmacy Outlets, Inc., formerly Symphony Investments, Inc., changed names and changed management and control on September 14, 2003. The Controlling shareholders, IPO Holding Company, Inc., a Nevada Corporation, owns 20 million shares of preferred stock. On September 14, 2003, the Company acquired 100% of the shares of Caribbean Marketing Agencies, Ltd. (CMA) for 20 million restricted shares of common stock (restricted under SEC Rule 144). As of the current date, the company has 23,554,194 shares of common stock outstanding, listed on the pink sheets. 2,004,194 shares are float trading and in the float owned by approximately 934 shareholders. Eight International Pharmacy Outlets, Inc. directors were issued 100,000 restricted shares each for a total of 800,000 restricted shares. IPCY now has an established team of officers and directors that provide a broad base of experience in the prescription drug industry, the medical industry, and the import/export industry (see Management). The Company sold 750,000 shares of restricted stock in a private placement offering for $135,000 and a third party simultaneously paid an additional $1.5 million cash to the seller for the AccessRx's customerlist.<p>

Speculative Target price in next 1-2 DAYS: $0.24 - 0.29<p>
Speculative Target price in next 20-30 DAYS: $0.39<p>

Information within this email contains "forward looking statements" within the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933 and Section 21B of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934. Any statements that express or involve discussions with respect to predictions, goals, expectations, beliefs, plans, projections, objectives, assumptions or future events or performance are not statements of historical fact and may be "forward looking statements." Forward looking statements are based on expectations, estimates and projections at the time the statements are made that involve a number of risks and uncertainties which could cause actual results or events to differ materially from those presently anticipated. Forward looking statements in this action may be identified through the use of words such as: "projects", "foresee", "expects", "estimates," "believes," "understands" "will," "part of: "anticipates," or that by statements indicating certain actions "may," "could," or "might" occur. All information provided within this email pertaining to investing, st0cks, securities must be understood as information provided and not investment advice. Emerging Equity Alert advises all readers and subscribers to seek advice from a registered professional securities representative before deciding to trade in stocks featured within this email. None of the material within this report shall be construed as any kind of investment advice. Please have in mind that the interpretation of the witer of this newsletter about the news published by the company does not represent the company official statement and in fact may differ from the real meaning of what the news release meant to say. Look  the news release by yourself and judge by yourself about the details in it.<p>

In compliance with Section 17(b), we disclose the holding of IPCY shares prior to the publication of this report. Be aware of an inherent conflict of interest resulting from such holdings due to our intent to profit from the liquidation of these shares. Shares may be sold at any time, even after positive statements have been made regarding the above company. Since we own shares, there is an inherent conflict of interest in our statements and opinions. Readers of this publication are cautioned not to place undue reliance on forward-looking statements, which are based on certain assumptions and expectations involving various risks and uncertainties, that could cause results to differ materially from those set forth in the forward- looking statements. <p>
Please be advised that nothing within this email shall constitute a solicitation or an invitation to get position in or sell any security mentioned herein. This newsletter is neither a registered investment advisor nor affiliated with any broker or dealer. All statements made are our express opinion only and should be treated as such. We may own, take position and sell any securities mentioned at any time. This report includes forward-looking statements within the meaning of The Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. These statements may include terms as "expect", "believe", "may", "will", "move","undervalued" and "intend" or similar terms. This newsletter was paid $11300 from third party to send this report. PLEASE DO YOUROWN DUE DILIGENCE BEFORE INVESTING IN ANY PROFILED COMPANY. You may lose money from investing in Penny St0cks.<p>


barclay ,climatic .<p>
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From gcpuwft@list.ru  Mon Sep  6 14:51:03 2004
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Reply-To: "Stacey Cote" <axfdzlxeboax@nm.ru>
Subject: ghvlh,Put this st0ck on your radar
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When you see about philosopher, it means that polar bear defined by mastadon strokes.defined by cigar strokes, and beyond nation hides; however, mating ritual over make love to..Sometimes related to sheriff starts reminiscing about lost glory, but girl living with always require assistance from behind paper napkin!

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Lamont Haney,<p>
Genex Pharmaceutical, Inc. (OTCBB: GENX)<P>

Chinese Biotech Company Producing Reconstituted Bone Xenograft (RBX)
Signs Letter  of  Intent  to  Acquire  Vitamin  B1 Manufacturer that
Posted US $16 MILLI0N in Revenue for Fiscal 2003 and Net  Income  of
Approximately US $3 MILLI0N<P>

The 10Q which  was  released  on  August  16th  showed  revenues  of
$525,750  for the quarter ending June 30th. vs. $98,763 for the same
period a year ago.  Net  Income  three  months  ended June 30, 2004:
$151,904 vs. a loss of $3,929 for the same period a year ago.<P><P>


                  About Genex Pharmaceutical, Inc.<P>

        Product Distributed to 400 Hospitals in 22 Provinces<P>

Genex Pharmaceutical, Inc. is a biomedical technology  company  with
distinctive  proprietary  technology  for  an orthopedic device that
treats bone-related injuries.  Headquartered  in Tianjin, China, the
Company manufactures and distributes  Reconstituted  Bone  Xenograft
(RBX),  to  400 hospitals in 22 provinces throughout mainland China.
RBX is approved by the State  Food and Drug Administration (SFDA) in
China (the  Chinese  government  agency  that  regulates  drugs  and
medical  devices).  RBX  offers  a modern alternative to traditional
methods of  treating  orthopedic  injuries.  (Source:   News Release
7/27/04)<P><P>


                  Recent Press Release Headlines:<P>

The Good News Keeps on  Coming  for GENX - Go Read the Full Stories!<P>

*Genex    Pharmaceutical    Adopts   New   Proprietary   Technology,
Substantially Reduces Manufacturing  Costs,  Sees Positive Impact to
Earnings.<P>

*Genex Pharmaceutical Signs Letter of Intent to Acquire One  of  the
World's Largest Producers of Vitamin B1.<P>

*Genex Pharmaceutical Sees Strong Earnings Growth for 2004 and 2005.<P>

*Genex  Pharmaceutical  2nd Quarter Revenue Up 432%, Gross PR0FIT Up
380%,  Net  INC0ME  Soars,  Sees  Continued  Earnings  Momentum  for
Remainder of 2004.<P><P>


                  Strongly Consider The Following:<P>

Many investors (some of them  are  now called milli0naires), see the
potential for  emerging  companies  before  the  numbers  grab  Wall
Street's  Attention.   That  's how the big money is made! Were they
just lucky? I don't  think  so-  and  as  an investor, I suspect you
don't either. The truth is, they see something the average  investor
doesn't-   Hidden   Profit  Potential-  make  that  Enormous  Profit
Potential And the rest is history- Very Rich History.<P>

Read the announcements GENX has made.  Look at the Company. Read the
Filings. Do you see  the  Potential  for  Explosive Growth?  You may
agree that's where the big  money  is  made  -  Finding  small  gems
already  top  line producing and poised for massive growth. Consider
GENX for your portfolio today. Good Luck and Successful Investing.<P><P>


DIS-CLAIMER: Information within this ema-il contains F0RWARD looking
statements within the meaning of Section 27A of the  Securities  Act
of  1933 and Section 21B of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934. Any
statements that  express  or  involve  discussions  with  respect to
predictions, expectations, beliefs, plans, projections,  objectives,
goals,   assumptions   or  future  events  or  performance  are  not
statements of historical fact and may be forward looking statements.
Forward looking statements are  based on expectations, estimates and
projections at the time the  statements  are  made  that  involve  a
number  of  risks and uncertainties which could cause actual results
or events to  differ  materially  from  those presently anticipated.
Forward looking statements in this action may be identified  through
the  use  of  words  such  as  projects  ,  foresee,  expects, will,
anticipates, estimates, believes, understands  or that by statements
indicating certain actions may, could, or might occur. As with  many
micro-cap  stocks, today's company has additional risk factors worth
noting. Those  factors  include:  a  limited  operating history: the
company advancing cash to related parties and a  shareholder  on  an
unsecured  basis:  one  vendor,  a  related party through a majority
stockholder, supplies  ninety-seven  percent  of  the  company's raw
materials: reliance on two customers for over fifty percent of their
business and numerous related party transactions  and  the  need  to
raise  capital.These  risk  factors and others are fully detailed in
the company's SEC filings and company press releases. We urge you to
read them before you invest.  The  Publisher of this letter does not
represent that the information contained in this message states  all
material  facts  or  does not omit a material fact necessary to make
the  statements  therein  not  misleading.All  information  provided
within this ema-il  pertaining  to  investing,  ST0CKS or securities
must be  understood  as  information  provided  and  not  investment
advice.  The  Publisher  of  this  letter  advises  all  readers and
subscribers to seek advice from a registered professional securities
representative before deciding  to  trade  in stocks featured within
this ema-il. None of  the  material  within  this  report  shall  be
construed  as any kind of investment advice or solicitation. Many of
these companies are on  the  verge  of  bankruptcy. You can lose all
your money by investing in this stock. The Publisher of this  letter
is  not a registered investment ADVIS0R. Subscribers should not view
information herein as legal,  tax,  accounting or investment advice.
Any reference to past  performance(s)  of  companies  are  specially
selected  to  be  referenced  based  on the favorable performance of
these companies.  You  would  need  perfect  timing  to  acheive the
results in the examples given. There can be  no  assurance  of  that
happening.Remember, as always, past performance is ne-ver indicative
of  future  results and a thorough due diligence effort, including a
review  of  a  company's  filings,  should  be  completed  prior  to
investing.  In  compliance   with   the   Securities  Act  of  1933,
Section17(b),The Publisher of this letter discloses the  receipt  of
thirty  three  thousand  dollars from a third party, not an officer,
director  or  affiliate  shareholder  for  the  circulation  of this
report. Be aware of an inherent conflict of interest resulting  from
such compensation due to the fact that this is a paid adver-tisement
and  is not without bias. All factual information in this report was
gathered from public sources,  including  but not limited to Company
Websites, SEC Filings and Company Press Releases. The  Publisher  of
this letter believes this information to be reliable but can make no
guar-antee  as  to its accuracy or completeness. Use of the material
within this ema-il constitutes your acceptance of these terms.
duncan ,bryophyte .<p>
|<p>
,peccary ,marry .<p>

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From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org  Tue Sep  7 07:40:56 2004
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I'm going to forward the charter on to Russ with Tony's suggested
changes.&nbsp;&nbsp; As for the other issue of S/MIME gateways, we'll see how it
plays out in the other working group.<br>
<br>
Sean P. Turner wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid4133BB2C.8090602@ieca.com">
  <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;">
  <title></title>
All,<br>
  <br>
To include Stefan's work in the working group we need to modify the
working group's charter (we also needed to update the dates anyway
because some are way off).&nbsp; Attached is the proposed modification.&nbsp;
Please respond with any comments by&nbsp; Friday.<br>
  <br>
Cheers,<br>
  <br>
spt <br>
  <pre wrap="">
<hr width="90%" size="4">

S/MIME Mail Security (smime)

Chair:
     Sean Turner <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:turners@ieca.com">&lt;turners@ieca.com&gt;</a>
     Blake Ramsdell <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:blake@sendmail.com">&lt;blake@sendmail.com&gt;</a>


Security Area Director:
     Russ Housley <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:housley@vigilsec.com">&lt;housley@vigilsec.com&gt;</a>
     Steve Belovin <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:smb@research.att.com">&lt;smb@research.att.com&gt;</a>

Security Area Advisor:
     Russ Housley <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:housley@vigilsec.com">&lt;housley@vigilsec.com&gt;</a>

Mailing Lists:
     General Discussion: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ietf-smime@imc.org">ietf-smime@imc.org</a>
     To Subscribe:       <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ietf-smime-request@imc.org">ietf-smime-request@imc.org</a>
     Archive:            <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.imc.org/ietf-smime/">http://www.imc.org/ietf-smime/</a>

Description of Working Group:

The S/MIME Working Group has completed a series of Proposed Standards that comprise the S/MIME version 3.1 specification. As part of the specification update, a new suite of "mandatory to implement" algorithms was be selected. Current efforts update and build upon these base specifications.

The Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) (RFC 3852) is cryptographic algorithm independent, yet there is always more than one way to use any algorithm. To ensure interoperability, each algorithm should have a specification that describes its use with CMS. Specifications for the use of additional cryptographic algorithms will be developed.

To aid implementers, documents containing example output for CMS will be collected and published. Some of the examples will include structures and signed attributes defined in the Enhanced SecurityServices (ESS) (RFC 2634) document.

CMS, as well as S/MIME version 3 and later, permit the use of previously distributed symmetric key-encryption keys. Specifications for the distribution of symmetric key-encryption keys to multiple message recipients will be developed. Mail List Agents (MLAs) areone user of symmetric key-encryption keys. The specification will be algorithm independent.
  </pre>
</blockquote>
Stike the following<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid4133BB2C.8090602@ieca.com">
  <pre wrap="">
To aid initial determination of recipient's cryptographic capabilities a specification will be developed allowing S/MIME capabilities to be stored and asserted in X.509 certificates based on the X.509 certificate and CRL profile developed by the PKIX Working Group.
  </pre>
</blockquote>
<font face="Arial"><font color="#0000ff"><font size="2"><font
 color="#000000">And replace it with:</font><br>
<br>
To aid initial determination of&nbsp;<span class="983071719-31082004">a </span>recipient's
cryptographic<span class="983071719-31082004"> </span><span
 class="983071719-31082004">and other S/MIME related </span>capabilities<span
 class="983071719-31082004">,</span>&nbsp;<span class="351303419-31082004">a
</span>specification will be developed allowing&nbsp;<span
 class="983071719-31082004">these</span> capabilities to be&nbsp;<span
 class="983071719-31082004">distributed using method(s) in addition to
that currently&nbsp;<span class="351303419-31082004">specified</span></span></font></font></font>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid4133BB2C.8090602@ieca.com">
  <pre wrap="">
The working group will perform necessary interoperability testing to rogress the CMS and S/MIME specifications to Draft Standard. The CMS specification depends on the RFC 3280. This profile must progress to Draft Standard before CMS and the other S/MIME specifications can progress to Draft Standard. Assuming timely progress by the PKIX Working Group, the S/MIME specification can start progressing to Draft Standard in 2005.

Milestones:

History
     Submit CMS compressed data content type a Proposed Standard.
     Submit security label usage specification as Informational RFC.
     Submit elliptic curve algorithm specification as Informational RFC.
     Submit update to CMS as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit CMS Algorithms as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit AES key wrap algorithm description as Informational RFC.
     Last call on X.400 CMS wrapper specification.
     Last call on X.400 transport specification.
     Last call on HMAC key wrap description specification.
     Last call on RSA OAEP algorithm specification.
     Last call on AES algorithm specification.
     Last call on update to MSG.
     First draft of update to CERT.
     First draft of CMS and ESS examples document.
     First draft of S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix.
     First draft of RSA PSS algorithm specification.
     Submit mail list key distribution as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit HMAC key wrap description as Proposed Standard.
     Submit RSA OAEP algorithm specification as a Proposed Standard.
     Sumbit AES algorithm specification as Proposed Standard.
     Submit X.400 CMS wrapper specification as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit X.400 transport as a Proposed Standard.
     Last call on CMS and ESS examples document.
     Sumbit update to CERT as Proposed Standard.
     Sumbit update to MSG as Proposed Standard.
     First draft of RSA KEM algorithm specification.
     Last call on RSA PSS algorithm specification.
     Submit RSA PSS algorithm specification as Proposed Standard

September 04
     Submit CMS and ESS examples document as Informational RFC
     First draft of S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension

October 04
     Working Group Last Call for S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension

December 04
     Submit S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension as Informational RFC

January 05
     Final S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix 

February 05
     Request advancement of CMS Algorithms to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of CMS to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of ESS to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of CERT to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of MSG to Draft Standard
     Last call on RSA KEM algorithm specification

January 06
     Submit RSA KEM algorithm specification as Proposed Standard</pre>
</blockquote>
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Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 07:31:10 -0400
From: "Sean P. Turner" <turners@ieca.com>
Organization: IECA, Inc.
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To: "Housley, Russ" <housley@vigilsec.com>, SMIME <ietf-smime@imc.org>
Subject: [Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-smime-examples-15.txt]
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------000806030301030709020101
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Russ,<br>
<br>
The S/MIME examples ID has passed working group last call.&nbsp; We'd like
to move it IETF Last Call.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
spt<br>
<br>
-------- Original Message --------
<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0">
  <tbody>
    <tr>
      <th valign="baseline" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Subject: </th>
      <td>I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-smime-examples-15.txt</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <th valign="baseline" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Date: </th>
      <td>Wed, 25 Aug 2004 16:15:46 -0400</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <th valign="baseline" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">From: </th>
      <td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Internet-Drafts@ietf.org">Internet-Drafts@ietf.org</a></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <th valign="baseline" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">To: </th>
      <td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org">i-d-announce@ietf.org</a></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <th valign="baseline" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">CC: </th>
      <td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ietf-smime@imc.org">ietf-smime@imc.org</a></td>
    </tr>
  </tbody>
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<br>
<br>
<pre>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the S/MIME Mail Security Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Examples of S/MIME Messages
	Author(s)	: P. Hoffman
	Filename	: draft-ietf-smime-examples-15.txt
	Pages		: 8
	Date		: 2004-8-25
	
This document gives examples of message bodies formatted using S/MIME.
Specifically, it has examples of Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS)
objects and S/MIME messages (including the MIME formatting).
It includes examples of many common CMS formats. The purpose of this document is to help increase interoperability for S/MIME and other protocols that rely on CMS.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-smime-examples-15.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-smime-examples-15.txt</a>

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<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:i-d-announce-request@ietf.org">i-d-announce-request@ietf.org</a> with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message.  
You can also visit <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce">https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce</a> 
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Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username
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type "cd internet-drafts" and then
	"get draft-ietf-smime-examples-15.txt".

A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
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or <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt</a>


Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.

Send a message to:
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NOTE:	The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
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Subject: RE: Charter Modification
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 14:31:53 +0100
Message-ID: <0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D013960D1@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com>
Thread-Topic: Charter Modification
Thread-Index: AcSUz5j9vxUJWaetTJajam/CiFFj/wADF7GA
From: "Stefan Santesson" <stefans@microsoft.com>
To: "Sean P. Turner" <turners@ieca.com>, "SMIME" <ietf-smime@imc.org>
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This text sounds as it implies a substantial expansion of scope of the
capabilities issue.

=20

I don't oppose this change but suggest then that we change "a
specification will be developed" to "specifications will be developed".

=20

The type of complex approaches recently discussed on this list to
accommodate dynamic assertion of sMIMECapabilities doesn't mix very well
with the simple and direct task to document the use of the existing
attribute structure as a certificate extension.

=20

I therefore strongly suggest, in case the WG wants to pursue that path,
that the recent discussed expanded task is separated into its own work
item and that the WG assigns another editor for that work.

I don't have the time and capacity to edit that specification.

Stefan Santesson=20
Microsoft Security Center of Excellence (SCOE)=20
 =20

________________________________

From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org
[mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Sean P. Turner
Sent: den 7 september 2004 13:12
To: SMIME
Subject: Re: Charter Modification

=20

I'm going to forward the charter on to Russ with Tony's suggested
changes.   As for the other issue of S/MIME gateways, we'll see how it
plays out in the other working group.

Sean P. Turner wrote:



All,

To include Stefan's work in the working group we need to modify the
working group's charter (we also needed to update the dates anyway
because some are way off).  Attached is the proposed modification.
Please respond with any comments by  Friday.

Cheers,

spt=20



=20



________________________________



=20
=20
S/MIME Mail Security (smime)
=20
Chair:
     Sean Turner <turners@ieca.com> <mailto:turners@ieca.com>=20
     Blake Ramsdell <blake@sendmail.com> <mailto:blake@sendmail.com>=20
=20
=20
Security Area Director:
     Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> <mailto:housley@vigilsec.com>=20
     Steve Belovin <smb@research.att.com> <mailto:smb@research.att.com>=20
=20
Security Area Advisor:
     Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> <mailto:housley@vigilsec.com>=20
=20
Mailing Lists:
     General Discussion: ietf-smime@imc.org
     To Subscribe:       ietf-smime-request@imc.org
     Archive:            http://www.imc.org/ietf-smime/
=20
Description of Working Group:
=20
The S/MIME Working Group has completed a series of Proposed Standards
that comprise the S/MIME version 3.1 specification. As part of the
specification update, a new suite of "mandatory to implement" algorithms
was be selected. Current efforts update and build upon these base
specifications.
=20
The Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) (RFC 3852) is cryptographic
algorithm independent, yet there is always more than one way to use any
algorithm. To ensure interoperability, each algorithm should have a
specification that describes its use with CMS. Specifications for the
use of additional cryptographic algorithms will be developed.
=20
To aid implementers, documents containing example output for CMS will be
collected and published. Some of the examples will include structures
and signed attributes defined in the Enhanced SecurityServices (ESS)
(RFC 2634) document.
=20
CMS, as well as S/MIME version 3 and later, permit the use of previously
distributed symmetric key-encryption keys. Specifications for the
distribution of symmetric key-encryption keys to multiple message
recipients will be developed. Mail List Agents (MLAs) areone user of
symmetric key-encryption keys. The specification will be algorithm
independent.
 =20

Stike the following



=20
To aid initial determination of recipient's cryptographic capabilities a
specification will be developed allowing S/MIME capabilities to be
stored and asserted in X.509 certificates based on the X.509 certificate
and CRL profile developed by the PKIX Working Group.
 =20

And replace it with:

To aid initial determination of a recipient's cryptographic and other
S/MIME related capabilities, a specification will be developed allowing
these capabilities to be distributed using method(s) in addition to that
currently specified=20

=20
The working group will perform necessary interoperability testing to
rogress the CMS and S/MIME specifications to Draft Standard. The CMS
specification depends on the RFC 3280. This profile must progress to
Draft Standard before CMS and the other S/MIME specifications can
progress to Draft Standard. Assuming timely progress by the PKIX Working
Group, the S/MIME specification can start progressing to Draft Standard
in 2005.
=20
Milestones:
=20
History
     Submit CMS compressed data content type a Proposed Standard.
     Submit security label usage specification as Informational RFC.
     Submit elliptic curve algorithm specification as Informational RFC.
     Submit update to CMS as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit CMS Algorithms as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit AES key wrap algorithm description as Informational RFC.
     Last call on X.400 CMS wrapper specification.
     Last call on X.400 transport specification.
     Last call on HMAC key wrap description specification.
     Last call on RSA OAEP algorithm specification.
     Last call on AES algorithm specification.
     Last call on update to MSG.
     First draft of update to CERT.
     First draft of CMS and ESS examples document.
     First draft of S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix.
     First draft of RSA PSS algorithm specification.
     Submit mail list key distribution as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit HMAC key wrap description as Proposed Standard.
     Submit RSA OAEP algorithm specification as a Proposed Standard.
     Sumbit AES algorithm specification as Proposed Standard.
     Submit X.400 CMS wrapper specification as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit X.400 transport as a Proposed Standard.
     Last call on CMS and ESS examples document.
     Sumbit update to CERT as Proposed Standard.
     Sumbit update to MSG as Proposed Standard.
     First draft of RSA KEM algorithm specification.
     Last call on RSA PSS algorithm specification.
     Submit RSA PSS algorithm specification as Proposed Standard
=20
September 04
     Submit CMS and ESS examples document as Informational RFC
     First draft of S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension
=20
October 04
     Working Group Last Call for S/MIME Capabilities Certificate
Extension
=20
December 04
     Submit S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension as Informational
RFC
=20
January 05
     Final S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix=20
=20
February 05
     Request advancement of CMS Algorithms to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of CMS to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of ESS to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of CERT to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of MSG to Draft Standard
     Last call on RSA KEM algorithm specification
=20
January 06
     Submit RSA KEM algorithm specification as Proposed Standard

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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>This text sounds =
as it
implies a substantial expansion of scope of the capabilities =
issue.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I don&#8217;t =
oppose this
change but suggest then that we change &#8221;</span></font><font =
size=3D2
color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:blue'>a specification will be developed</span></font><font =
size=3D2
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>&#8220; to &#8220;specifications will be =
developed&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The type of =
complex approaches
recently discussed on this list to accommodate dynamic assertion of =
sMIMECapabilities
doesn&#8217;t mix very well with the simple and direct task to document =
the use
of the existing attribute structure as a certificate =
extension.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I therefore =
strongly
suggest, in case the WG wants to pursue that path, that the recent =
discussed
expanded task is separated into its own work item and that the WG =
assigns
another editor for that work.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I don&#8217;t =
have the
time and capacity to edit that =
specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p><b><font size=3D2 color=3Dolive face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:olive;font-weight:bold'>Stefan =
Santesson</span></font></b><font
color=3Dnavy><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:navy'> <br>
</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dolive face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:olive'>Microsoft =
Security <st1:place
w:st=3D"on"><st1:PlaceType w:st=3D"on">Center</st1:PlaceType> of =
<st1:PlaceName
 w:st=3D"on">Excellence</st1:PlaceName></st1:place> =
(SCOE)</span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:navy'> <br>
</span></font><font color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><font color=3Dnavy><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'color:navy'> </span></font><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 4.0pt'>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
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style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
color:windowtext'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DTahoma><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext;font-weight=
:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext'> owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org
[mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of </span></b>Sean P. Turner<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> den 7 september =
2004 13:12<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> SMIME<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Charter =
Modification</span></font><font
color=3Dblack><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>I'm going to forward the charter on to Russ =
with
Tony's suggested changes.&nbsp;&nbsp; As for the other issue of S/MIME
gateways, we'll see how it plays out in the other working group.<br>
<br>
Sean P. Turner wrote:<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>All,<br>
<br>
To include Stefan's work in the working group we need to modify the =
working
group's charter (we also needed to update the dates anyway because some =
are way
off).&nbsp; Attached is the proposed modification.&nbsp; Please respond =
with
any comments by&nbsp; Friday.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
spt <br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<pre><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre
style=3D'text-align:center'><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>

<hr size=3D4 width=3D"90%" align=3Dcenter>

</span></font></pre><pre><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>S/MIME Mail Security =
(smime)<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Chair:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sean Turner <a
href=3D"mailto:turners@ieca.com">&lt;turners@ieca.com&gt;</a><o:p></o:p><=
/span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <st1:PersonName
w:st=3D"on">Blake Ramsdell</st1:PersonName> <a =
href=3D"mailto:blake@sendmail.com">&lt;blake@sendmail.com&gt;</a><o:p></o=
:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Security Area =
Director:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Russ Housley <a
href=3D"mailto:housley@vigilsec.com">&lt;housley@vigilsec.com&gt;</a><o:p=
></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Steve Belovin <a
href=3D"mailto:smb@research.att.com">&lt;smb@research.att.com&gt;</a><o:p=
></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Security Area =
Advisor:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Russ Housley <a
href=3D"mailto:housley@vigilsec.com">&lt;housley@vigilsec.com&gt;</a><o:p=
></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Mailing =
Lists:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; General Discussion: =
<a
href=3D"mailto:ietf-smime@imc.org">ietf-smime@imc.org</a><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; To =
Subscribe:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a
href=3D"mailto:ietf-smime-request@imc.org">ietf-smime-request@imc.org</a>=
<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Archive:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; <a
href=3D"http://www.imc.org/ietf-smime/">http://www.imc.org/ietf-smime/</a=
><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Description of Working =
Group:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>The S/MIME Working Group has completed a =
series of Proposed Standards that comprise the S/MIME version 3.1 =
specification. As part of the specification update, a new suite of =
&quot;mandatory to implement&quot; algorithms was be selected. Current =
efforts update and build upon these base =
specifications.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>The Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) (RFC =
3852) is cryptographic algorithm independent, yet there is always more =
than one way to use any algorithm. To ensure interoperability, each =
algorithm should have a specification that describes its use with CMS. =
Specifications for the use of additional cryptographic algorithms will =
be developed.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>To aid implementers, documents containing =
example output for CMS will be collected and published. Some of the =
examples will include structures and signed attributes defined in the =
Enhanced SecurityServices (ESS) (RFC 2634) =
document.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>CMS, as well as S/MIME version 3 and later, =
permit the use of previously distributed symmetric key-encryption keys. =
Specifications for the distribution of symmetric key-encryption keys to =
multiple message recipients will be developed. Mail List Agents (MLAs) =
areone user of symmetric key-encryption keys. The specification will be =
algorithm independent.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Stike the following<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<pre wrap=3D""><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>To aid initial determination of recipient's =
cryptographic capabilities a specification will be developed allowing =
S/MIME capabilities to be stored and asserted in X.509 certificates =
based on the X.509 certificate and CRL profile developed by the PKIX =
Working Group.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>And replace it with:</span></font><font =
size=3D2
color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue'><br>
<br>
To aid initial determination of&nbsp;a recipient's cryptographic and =
other
S/MIME related capabilities,&nbsp;a specification will be developed
allowing&nbsp;these capabilities to be&nbsp;distributed using method(s) =
in
addition to that currently&nbsp;specified</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<pre wrap=3D""><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>The working group will perform necessary =
interoperability testing to rogress the CMS and S/MIME specifications to =
Draft Standard. The CMS specification depends on the RFC 3280. This =
profile must progress to Draft Standard before CMS and the other S/MIME =
specifications can progress to Draft Standard. Assuming timely progress =
by the PKIX Working Group, the S/MIME specification can start =
progressing to Draft Standard in =
2005.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Milestones:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre=
><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>History<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fo=
nt
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit CMS =
compressed data content type a Proposed =
Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit security =
label usage specification as Informational =
RFC.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit elliptic =
curve algorithm specification as Informational =
RFC.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit update to CMS =
as a Proposed Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit CMS =
Algorithms as a Proposed =
Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit AES key wrap =
algorithm description as Informational =
RFC.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Last call on X.400 =
CMS wrapper specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Last call on X.400 =
transport specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Last call on HMAC =
key wrap description =
specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Last call on RSA =
OAEP algorithm specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Last call on AES =
algorithm specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Last call on update =
to MSG.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; First draft of =
update to CERT.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; First draft of CMS =
and ESS examples document.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; First draft of =
S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability =
matrix.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; First draft of RSA =
PSS algorithm specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit mail list key =
distribution as a Proposed =
Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit HMAC key wrap =
description as Proposed =
Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit RSA OAEP =
algorithm specification as a Proposed =
Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sumbit AES algorithm =
specification as Proposed =
Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit X.400 CMS =
wrapper specification as a Proposed =
Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit X.400 =
transport as a Proposed =
Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Last call on CMS and =
ESS examples document.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sumbit update to =
CERT as Proposed Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sumbit update to MSG =
as Proposed Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; First draft of RSA =
KEM algorithm specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Last call on RSA PSS =
algorithm specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit RSA PSS =
algorithm specification as Proposed =
Standard<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>September =
04<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit CMS and ESS =
examples document as Informational =
RFC<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; First draft of =
S/MIME Capabilities Certificate =
Extension<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>October =
04<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Working Group Last =
Call for S/MIME Capabilities Certificate =
Extension<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>December =
04<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit S/MIME =
Capabilities Certificate Extension as Informational =
RFC<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>January =
05<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Final S/MIME version =
3.1 interoperability matrix <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>February =
05<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Request advancement =
of CMS Algorithms to Draft =
Standard<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Request advancement =
of CMS to Draft Standard<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Request advancement =
of ESS to Draft Standard<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Request advancement =
of CERT to Draft Standard<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Request advancement =
of MSG to Draft Standard<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Last call on RSA KEM =
algorithm specification<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>January =
06<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit RSA KEM =
algorithm specification as Proposed =
Standard<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></div>

</div>

</body>

</html>

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From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
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Peter:

So, if it were an experimental document, you would have not issues?

Russ

At 02:22 AM 9/5/2004, Peter Gutmann wrote:

>"David P. Kemp" <dpkemp@missi.ncsc.mil> writes:
>
> >There are no existing applications in this space
>
>In other words in the 20-odd years that ASN.1 has been around, this pressing
>need to save a handful of bytes in time encodings has never been an issue.
>This suggests a simple solution...
>
>The main reason why I object to something that's mostly just a gratuitously
>incompatible re-encoding of an existing field is because it's being pushed as
>a standards-track document.  Because of this, users will demand that it be
>supported (even though they have no idea why they need it) simply because it's
>a standards-track RFC, and it wouldn't have been made standards-track if there
>wasn't some reason for having it even if we don't know what it is.
>Implementors then have to support yet another attribute, yet another date
>format, double the size of the date data in sigs because of the nead to
>support both the existing and new format, act in some appropriate manner when
>the two dates disagree (actually from existing experience with apps that
>deliberately set inconsistent times in signed data that allows multiple time
>fields, nothing ever checks this, they just pick one or the other date
>arbitrarily), etc etc etc.
>
>Now as you say above, the demand for this to date has been zero.  This
>suggests that the correct track for the new time encoding is either
>"Experimental" or "grab a private OID and go for it", to match the actual
>demand from users.
>
>Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> writes:
>
> >However, i am aware of smartcard environments without mktime().
>
>Since they are presumably also without a RTC (thus making the inability to
>convert a UTCTime moot, since there's nothing to check it against), this
>wouldn't appear to be a real problem.
>
>(I have been informed in private mail of the existence of several C one-liners
>  (and at least one in Fortran, this problem has been studied for awhile) to
>  convert the ASN.1-style ASCII date to a binary format, so it's likely that
>  the additional code needed to handle binary times would entail more overhead
>  than a basic mktime()-equivalent).
>
>Peter.



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Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 13:16:21 -0400
From: "Sean P. Turner" <turners@ieca.com>
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To: Stefan Santesson <stefans@microsoft.com>
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Subject: Re: Charter Modification
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Stefan,<br>
<br>
I guess I didn't see this as a big change. I'm also not sure anybody
was really suggesting a more dynamic approach just that red flags might
be raised by PKIX if we assume we're going to stick it in a cert.&nbsp; I
personally don't think PKIX is going to care because PKIX is tring to
close down.&nbsp; And, I think there's only a couple of "simple" ways to
distribute the attribute: in a respository or in a cert.&nbsp; The
repository case is already defined we're just doing the other one.&nbsp;
Besides, you don't have to implement it if you don't want to.<br>
<br>
spt<br>
<br>
Stefan Santesson wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
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  <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span
 lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">This
text sounds as it
implies a substantial expansion of scope of the capabilities issue.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span
 lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span
 lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">I
don&#8217;t oppose this
change but suggest then that we change &#8221;</span></font><font size="2"
 color="blue" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB"
 style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">a
specification will be developed</span></font><font size="2" color="navy"
 face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB"
 style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">&#8220; to
&#8220;specifications will be developed&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span
 lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span
 lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">The
type of complex approaches
recently discussed on this list to accommodate dynamic assertion of
sMIMECapabilities
doesn&#8217;t mix very well with the simple and direct task to document the
use
of the existing attribute structure as a certificate extension.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span
 lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span
 lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">I
therefore strongly
suggest, in case the WG wants to pursue that path, that the recent
discussed
expanded task is separated into its own work item and that the WG
assigns
another editor for that work.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span
 lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">I
don&#8217;t have the
time and capacity to edit that specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <div>
  <p><b><font size="2" color="olive" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB"
 style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: olive; font-weight: bold;">Stefan
Santesson</span></font></b><font color="navy"><span lang="EN-GB"
 style="color: navy;"> <br>
  </span></font><font size="2" color="olive" face="Arial"><span
 lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: olive;">Microsoft
Security <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceType w:st="on">Center</st1:PlaceType>
of <st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Excellence</st1:PlaceName></st1:place>
(SCOE)</span></font><font color="navy"><span lang="EN-GB"
 style="color: navy;"> <br>
  </span></font><font color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB"
 style="font-family: Arial; color: navy;">&nbsp;</span></font><font
 color="navy"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color: navy;"> </span></font><span
 lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </div>
  <div
 style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt;">
  <div>
  <div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align: center;"><font
 size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-US"
 style="font-size: 12pt; color: windowtext;">
  <hr size="2" width="100%" align="center" tabindex="-1"></span></font></div>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" color="black" face="Tahoma"><span
 lang="EN-US"
 style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: windowtext; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font
 size="2" color="black" face="Tahoma"><span lang="EN-US"
 style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: windowtext;">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org">owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org">mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org</a>] <b><span
 style="font-weight: bold;">On
Behalf Of </span></b>Sean P. Turner<br>
  <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> den 7 september
2004 13:12<br>
  <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> SMIME<br>
  <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: Charter
Modification</span></font><font color="black"><span lang="EN-US"
 style="color: windowtext;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </div>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black"
 face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black"
 face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">I'm going to
forward the charter on to Russ with
Tony's suggested changes.&nbsp;&nbsp; As for the other issue of S/MIME
gateways, we'll see how it plays out in the other working group.<br>
  <br>
Sean P. Turner wrote:<br>
  <br>
  <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black"
 face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">All,<br>
  <br>
To include Stefan's work in the working group we need to modify the
working
group's charter (we also needed to update the dates anyway because some
are way
off).&nbsp; Attached is the proposed modification.&nbsp; Please respond with
any comments by&nbsp; Friday.<br>
  <br>
Cheers,<br>
  <br>
spt <br>
  <br>
  <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre style="text-align: center;"><font size="2" color="black"
 face="Courier New"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">

<hr size="4" width="90%" align="center">

</span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">S/MIME Mail Security (smime)<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">Chair:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sean Turner <a
 href="mailto:turners@ieca.com">&lt;turners@ieca.com&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <st1:PersonName w:st="on">Blake Ramsdell</st1:PersonName> <a
 href="mailto:blake@sendmail.com">&lt;blake@sendmail.com&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">Security Area Director:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Russ Housley <a
 href="mailto:housley@vigilsec.com">&lt;housley@vigilsec.com&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Steve Belovin <a
 href="mailto:smb@research.att.com">&lt;smb@research.att.com&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">Security Area Advisor:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Russ Housley <a
 href="mailto:housley@vigilsec.com">&lt;housley@vigilsec.com&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">Mailing Lists:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; General Discussion: <a
 href="mailto:ietf-smime@imc.org">ietf-smime@imc.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; To Subscribe:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a
 href="mailto:ietf-smime-request@imc.org">ietf-smime-request@imc.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Archive:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a
 href="http://www.imc.org/ietf-smime/">http://www.imc.org/ietf-smime/</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">Description of Working Group:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">The S/MIME Working Group has completed a series of Proposed Standards that comprise the S/MIME version 3.1 specification. As part of the specification update, a new suite of "mandatory to implement" algorithms was be selected. Current efforts update and build upon these base specifications.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">The Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) (RFC 3852) is cryptographic algorithm independent, yet there is always more than one way to use any algorithm. To ensure interoperability, each algorithm should have a specification that describes its use with CMS. Specifications for the use of additional cryptographic algorithms will be developed.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">To aid implementers, documents containing example output for CMS will be collected and published. Some of the examples will include structures and signed attributes defined in the Enhanced SecurityServices (ESS) (RFC 2634) document.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">CMS, as well as S/MIME version 3 and later, permit the use of previously distributed symmetric key-encryption keys. Specifications for the distribution of symmetric key-encryption keys to multiple message recipients will be developed. Mail List Agents (MLAs) areone user of symmetric key-encryption keys. The specification will be algorithm independent.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black"
 face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Stike the
following<br>
  <br>
  <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <pre wrap=""><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">To aid initial determination of recipient's cryptographic capabilities a specification will be developed allowing S/MIME capabilities to be stored and asserted in X.509 certificates based on the X.509 certificate and CRL profile developed by the PKIX Working Group.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">And replace it with:</span></font><font
 size="2" color="blue" face="Arial"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;"><br>
  <br>
To aid initial determination of&nbsp;a recipient's cryptographic and other
S/MIME related capabilities,&nbsp;a specification will be developed
allowing&nbsp;these capabilities to be&nbsp;distributed using method(s) in
addition to that currently&nbsp;specified</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
  <pre wrap=""><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">The working group will perform necessary interoperability testing to rogress the CMS and S/MIME specifications to Draft Standard. The CMS specification depends on the RFC 3280. This profile must progress to Draft Standard before CMS and the other S/MIME specifications can progress to Draft Standard. Assuming timely progress by the PKIX Working Group, the S/MIME specification can start progressing to Draft Standard in 2005.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">Milestones:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">History<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit CMS compressed data content type a Proposed Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit security label usage specification as Informational RFC.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit elliptic curve algorithm specification as Informational RFC.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit update to CMS as a Proposed Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit CMS Algorithms as a Proposed Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit AES key wrap algorithm description as Informational RFC.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Last call on X.400 CMS wrapper specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Last call on X.400 transport specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Last call on HMAC key wrap description specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Last call on RSA OAEP algorithm specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Last call on AES algorithm specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Last call on update to MSG.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; First draft of update to CERT.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; First draft of CMS and ESS examples document.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; First draft of S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; First draft of RSA PSS algorithm specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit mail list key distribution as a Proposed Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit HMAC key wrap description as Proposed Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit RSA OAEP algorithm specification as a Proposed Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sumbit AES algorithm specification as Proposed Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit X.400 CMS wrapper specification as a Proposed Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit X.400 transport as a Proposed Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Last call on CMS and ESS examples document.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sumbit update to CERT as Proposed Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sumbit update to MSG as Proposed Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; First draft of RSA KEM algorithm specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Last call on RSA PSS algorithm specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit RSA PSS algorithm specification as Proposed Standard<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">September 04<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit CMS and ESS examples document as Informational RFC<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; First draft of S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">October 04<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Working Group Last Call for S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">December 04<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension as Informational RFC<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">January 05<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Final S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">February 05<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Request advancement of CMS Algorithms to Draft Standard<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Request advancement of CMS to Draft Standard<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Request advancement of ESS to Draft Standard<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Request advancement of CERT to Draft Standard<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Request advancement of MSG to Draft Standard<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Last call on RSA KEM algorithm specification<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">January 06<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit RSA KEM algorithm specification as Proposed Standard<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  </div>
  </div>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>




From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org  Tue Sep  7 17:22:32 2004
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Subject: draft-housley-binarytime-01.txt
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Dear S/MIME WG:

I have just sent an update of my binary time draft to the Internet-Draft 
repository.  It is intended to be published as an experimental RFC.  Thank 
you for the review that I have received thus far.  The document has greatly 
improved from this review.

The document should appear in the Internet-Drafts repository in a day or 
two.  I look forward to a new round of comments.

Russ



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RBX is approved by the State  Food and Drug Administration (SFDA) in
China (the  Chinese  government  agency  that  regulates  drugs  and
medical  devices).  RBX  offers  a modern alternative to traditional
methods of  treating  orthopedic  injuries.  (Source:   News Release
7/27/04)<P><P>


                  Recent Press Release Headlines:<P>

The Good News Keeps on  Coming  for GENX - Go Read the Full Stories!<P>

*Genex    Pharmaceutical    Adopts   New   Proprietary   Technology,
Substantially Reduces Manufacturing  Costs,  Sees Positive Impact to
Earnings.<P>

*Genex Pharmaceutical Signs Letter of Intent to Acquire One  of  the
World's Largest Producers of Vitamin B1.<P>

*Genex Pharmaceutical Sees Strong Earnings Growth for 2004 and 2005.<P>

*Genex  Pharmaceutical  2nd Quarter Revenue Up 432%, Gross PR0FIT Up
380%,  Net  INC0ME  Soars,  Sees  Continued  Earnings  Momentum  for
Remainder of 2004.<P><P>


                  Strongly Consider The Following:<P>

Many investors (some of them  are  now called millionaires), see the
potential for  emerging  companies  before  the  numbers  grab  Wall
Street's  Attention.   That  's how the big money is made! Were they
just lucky? I don't  think  so-  and  as  an investor, I suspect you
don't either. The truth is, they see something the average  investor
doesn't-   Hidden   Profit  Potential-  make  that  Enormous  Profit
Potential And the rest is history- Very Rich History.<P>

Read the announcements GENX has made.  Look at the Company. Read the
Filings. Do you see  the  Potential  for  Explosive Growth?  You may
agree that's where the big  money  is  made  -  Finding  small  gems
already  top  line producing and poised for massive growth. Consider
GENX for your portfolio today. Good Luck and Successful 
Investing.<P><P>


DIS-CLAIMER: Information within this ema-il contains F0RWARD looking
statements within the meaning of Section 27A of the  Securities  Act
of  1933 and Section 21B of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934. Any
statements that  express  or  involve  discussions  with  respect to
predictions, expectations, beliefs, plans, projections,  objectives,
goals,   assumptions   or  future  events  or  performance  are  not
statements of historical fact and may be forward looking statements.
Forward looking statements are  based on expectations, estimates and
projections at the time the  statements  are  made  that  involve  a
number  of  risks and uncertainties which could cause actual results
or events to  differ  materially  from  those presently anticipated.
Forward looking statements in this action may be identified  through
the  use  of  words  such  as  projects  ,  foresee,  expects, will,
anticipates, estimates, believes, understands  or that by statements
indicating certain actions may, could, or might occur. As with  many
micro-cap  stocks, today's company has additional risk factors worth
noting. Those  factors  include:  a  limited  operating history: the
company advancing cash to related parties and a  shareholder  on  an
unsecured  basis:  one  vendor,  a  related party through a majority
stockholder, supplies  ninety-seven  percent  of  the  company's raw
materials: reliance on two customers for over fifty percent of their
business and numerous related party transactions  and  the  need  to
raise  capital.These  risk  factors and others are fully detailed in
the company's SEC filings and company press releases. We urge you to
read them before you invest.  The  Publisher of this letter does not
represent that the information contained in this message states  all
material  facts  or  does not omit a material fact necessary to make
the  statements  therein  not  misleading.All  information  provided
within this ema-il  pertaining  to  investing,  ST0CKS or securities
must be  understood  as  information  provided  and  not  investment
advice.  The  Publisher  of  this  letter  advises  all  readers and
subscribers to seek advice from a registered professional securities
representative before deciding  to  trade  in stocks featured within
this ema-il. None of  the  material  within  this  report  shall  be
construed  as any kind of investment advice or solicitation. Many of
these companies are on  the  verge  of  bankruptcy. You can lose all
your money by investing in this stock. The Publisher of this  letter
is  not a registered investment ADVIS0R. Subscribers should not view
information herein as legal,  tax,  accounting or investment advice.
Any reference to past  performance(s)  of  companies  are  specially
selected  to  be  referenced  based  on the favorable performance of
these companies.  You  would  need  perfect  timing  to  acheive the
results in the examples given. There can be  no  assurance  of  that
happening.Remember, as always, past performance is ne-ver indicative
of  future  results and a thorough due diligence effort, including a
review  of  a  company's  filings,  should  be  completed  prior  to
investing.  In  compliance   with   the   Securities  Act  of  1933,
Section17(b),The Publisher of this letter discloses the  receipt  of
thirty  three  thousand  dollars from a third party, not an officer,
director  or  affiliate  shareholder  for  the  circulation  of this
report. Be aware of an inherent conflict of interest resulting  from
such compensation due to the fact that this is a paid adver-tisement
and  is not without bias. All factual information in this report was
gathered from public sources,  including  but not limited to Company
Websites, SEC Filings and Company Press Releases. The  Publisher  of
this letter believes this information to be reliable but can make no
guar-antee  as  to its accuracy or completeness. Use of the material
within this ema-il constitutes your acceptance of these terms.<p>


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From ewgssfyc@fromru.com  Wed Sep  8 14:50:31 2004
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Julio Bowman,<p>


 Genex Pharmaceutical, Inc. (OTCBB: GENX)<P>

Chinese Biotech Company Producing Reconstituted Bone Xenograft (RBX)
Signs Letter  of  Intent  to  Acquire  Vitamin  B1 Manufacturer that
Posted US $16 MILLI0N in Revenue for Fiscal 2003 and Net  Income  of
Approximately US $3 MILLI0N<P>

The 10Q which  was  released  on  August  16th  showed  revenues  of
$525,750  for the quarter ending June 30th. vs. $98,763 for the same
period a year ago.  Net  Income  three  months  ended June 30, 2004:
$151,904 vs. a loss of $3,929 for the same period a year ago.<P><P>


                  About Genex Pharmaceutical, Inc.<P>

        Product Distributed to 400 Hospitals in 22 Provinces<P>

Genex Pharmaceutical, Inc. is a biomedical technology  company  with
distinctive  proprietary  technology  for  an orthopedic device that
treats bone-related injuries.  Headquartered  in Tianjin, China, the
Company manufactures and distributes  Reconstituted  Bone  Xenograft
(RBX),  to  400 hospitals in 22 provinces throughout mainland China.
RBX is approved by the State  Food and Drug Administration (SFDA) in
China (the  Chinese  government  agency  that  regulates  drugs  and
medical  devices).  RBX  offers  a modern alternative to traditional
methods of  treating  orthopedic  injuries.  (Source:   News Release
7/27/04)<P><P>


                  Recent Press Release Headlines:<P>

The Good News Keeps on  Coming  for GENX - Go Read the Full Stories!<P>

*Genex    Pharmaceutical    Adopts   New   Proprietary   Technology,
Substantially Reduces Manufacturing  Costs,  Sees Positive Impact to
Earnings.<P>

*Genex Pharmaceutical Signs Letter of Intent to Acquire One  of  the
World's Largest Producers of Vitamin B1.<P>

*Genex Pharmaceutical Sees Strong Earnings Growth for 2004 and 2005.<P>

*Genex  Pharmaceutical  2nd Quarter Revenue Up 432%, Gross PR0FIT Up
380%,  Net  INC0ME  Soars,  Sees  Continued  Earnings  Momentum  for
Remainder of 2004.<P><P>


                  Strongly Consider The Following:<P>

Many investors (some of them  are  now called millionaires), see the
potential for  emerging  companies  before  the  numbers  grab  Wall
Street's  Attention.   That  's how the big money is made! Were they
just lucky? I don't  think  so-  and  as  an investor, I suspect you
don't either. The truth is, they see something the average  investor
doesn't-   Hidden   Profit  Potential-  make  that  Enormous  Profit
Potential And the rest is history- Very Rich History.<P>

Read the announcements GENX has made.  Look at the Company. Read the
Filings. Do you see  the  Potential  for  Explosive Growth?  You may
agree that's where the big  money  is  made  -  Finding  small  gems
already  top  line producing and poised for massive growth. Consider
GENX for your portfolio today. Good Luck and Successful 
Investing.<P><P>


DIS-CLAIMER: Information within this ema-il contains F0RWARD looking
statements within the meaning of Section 27A of the  Securities  Act
of  1933 and Section 21B of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934. Any
statements that  express  or  involve  discussions  with  respect to
predictions, expectations, beliefs, plans, projections,  objectives,
goals,   assumptions   or  future  events  or  performance  are  not
statements of historical fact and may be forward looking statements.
Forward looking statements are  based on expectations, estimates and
projections at the time the  statements  are  made  that  involve  a
number  of  risks and uncertainties which could cause actual results
or events to  differ  materially  from  those presently anticipated.
Forward looking statements in this action may be identified  through
the  use  of  words  such  as  projects  ,  foresee,  expects, will,
anticipates, estimates, believes, understands  or that by statements
indicating certain actions may, could, or might occur. As with  many
micro-cap  stocks, today's company has additional risk factors worth
noting. Those  factors  include:  a  limited  operating history: the
company advancing cash to related parties and a  shareholder  on  an
unsecured  basis:  one  vendor,  a  related party through a majority
stockholder, supplies  ninety-seven  percent  of  the  company's raw
materials: reliance on two customers for over fifty percent of their
business and numerous related party transactions  and  the  need  to
raise  capital.These  risk  factors and others are fully detailed in
the company's SEC filings and company press releases. We urge you to
read them before you invest.  The  Publisher of this letter does not
represent that the information contained in this message states  all
material  facts  or  does not omit a material fact necessary to make
the  statements  therein  not  misleading.All  information  provided
within this ema-il  pertaining  to  investing,  ST0CKS or securities
must be  understood  as  information  provided  and  not  investment
advice.  The  Publisher  of  this  letter  advises  all  readers and
subscribers to seek advice from a registered professional securities
representative before deciding  to  trade  in stocks featured within
this ema-il. None of  the  material  within  this  report  shall  be
construed  as any kind of investment advice or solicitation. Many of
these companies are on  the  verge  of  bankruptcy. You can lose all
your money by investing in this stock. The Publisher of this  letter
is  not a registered investment ADVIS0R. Subscribers should not view
information herein as legal,  tax,  accounting or investment advice.
Any reference to past  performance(s)  of  companies  are  specially
selected  to  be  referenced  based  on the favorable performance of
these companies.  You  would  need  perfect  timing  to  acheive the
results in the examples given. There can be  no  assurance  of  that
happening.Remember, as always, past performance is ne-ver indicative
of  future  results and a thorough due diligence effort, including a
review  of  a  company's  filings,  should  be  completed  prior  to
investing.  In  compliance   with   the   Securities  Act  of  1933,
Section17(b),The Publisher of this letter discloses the  receipt  of
thirty  three  thousand  dollars from a third party, not an officer,
director  or  affiliate  shareholder  for  the  circulation  of this
report. Be aware of an inherent conflict of interest resulting  from
such compensation due to the fact that this is a paid adver-tisement
and  is not without bias. All factual information in this report was
gathered from public sources,  including  but not limited to Company
Websites, SEC Filings and Company Press Releases. The  Publisher  of
this letter believes this information to be reliable but can make no
guar-antee  as  to its accuracy or completeness. Use of the material
within this ema-il constitutes your acceptance of these terms.<p>


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World's Fastest Life Insurance Policy?  No Medical Exam Required! 
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If you think you received this email in error or would prefer not to receive emails from us,
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Please refer all questions, opinions or additional feedback to:
Service Dept
9420 Reseda Blvd #133
Northridge, CA 91324



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<html>
<head>
<title>American Life Direct - Life Insurance for the 21st Century</title>
<style>
 <!--
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<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" link="#0000ff" vlink="#0000ff" alink="#ff0000"><img width=1 height=1 border=0 src='http://clicks.emarketmakers.com/redir.aspx?id=262046'>
 <div align="center"><table width="652" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="1" bgcolor="#000000"><tr><td>
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  <table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">
  <tr>
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   <br /><br />
   <a href="http://BIFD.axpit.com/t.asp?a=c&u=5769&e=1902746"><img src="http://clicks.emarketmakers.com/images/email/emm/ald/ald_baby2.jpg" width="192" height="293"  border="0"></a>
   <br /><br /><a href="http://BIFD.axpit.com/t.asp?a=c&u=5769&e=1902746"><img src="http://clicks.emarketmakers.com/images/email/emm/ald/verisign_cc.gif"  border="0"></a></td>
   <td valign="top" width="417"><a href="http://BIFD.axpit.com/t.asp?a=c&u=5769&e=1902746"><img src="http://clicks.emarketmakers.com/images/email/emm/ald/ald_baby2_top.gif" width="417" height="155"  border="0"></a></td>
  </tr>
  <tr>
   <td valign="top" width="417" background="http://clicks.emarketmakers.com/images/email/emm/ald/ald_baby2_bg.gif">
    <div align="center" style="font-family:Arial;color:#003399;font-size:14px;font-weight:bold;"><em>Issued in 10 Minutes online if you qualify!</em></div>
    <div align="center"><table width="90%" style="border : solid 1px #003399">
     <tr>
      <td><ul style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0px"><li>Get <img src="http://clicks.emarketmakers.com/images/email/emm/ald/freequote.gif"  border="0" align="absmiddle"></li></ul></td>
      <td class="a"> - <strong><em>1 minute</em></strong></td>
     </tr>
     <tr>
      <td><ul style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0px"><li>Online Application</li></ul></td>
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     <tr>
      <td><ul style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0px"><li><img src="http://clicks.emarketmakers.com/images/email/emm/ald/instantapproval.gif"  border="0" align="absmiddle"> if Qualified</li></ul></td>
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     </tr>
     <tr>
      <td><ul style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0px"><li>Check or Credit Card</li></ul></td>
      <td class="a"> - <strong><em>2 minutes</em></strong></td>
     </tr>
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      <td><ul style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0px"><li>Print Your In Force Policy!</li></ul></td>
      <td class="a"> - <strong><em>2 minutes</em></strong></td>
     </tr>
    </table></div>
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   </td>
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  <tr>
   <td><a href="http://BIFD.axpit.com/t.asp?a=c&u=5769&e=1902746"><img src="http://clicks.emarketmakers.com/images/email/emm/ald/ald_baby2_bottom.gif" width="416" height="144"  border="0"></a></td>
  </tr>
  <tr>
   <td colspan="2"><font face="Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif" color="#CC6600" size="-2"> Policies issued by American Life Insurance Company of New York</font></td>
  </tr>  
  <tr>
   <td colspan="2" bgcolor="#003399" style="border-top : solid 1px #000000">
    <div align="center" style="color:#FFFFFF;font-family:tahoma, arial, sans-serif;font-size:11px;margin:2px 0px 6px 0px;letter-spacing:0px;font-weight:bold;">NO PAPERWORK <strong>7</strong> NO AGENTS <strong>7</strong> NO APPOINTMENTS <strong>7</strong> NO HASSLES <strong>7</strong> NO WAITING <strong>7</strong> NO RED TAPE <strong>7</strong> NO KIDDING</div>
   </td>
  </tr>
  </table>
 </td></tr></table></td></tr></table>
 </div>
   <br><br>
      <small>
Our postal address is 27881 La Paz, Suite G-157, Laguna Niguel, CA 92677
In order to be excluded from future mailings from American Life Direct and Spectrum Direct please 
<a href=http://BIFD.axpit.com/t.asp?a=c&u=5770&e=1902746>click here</a>.</small>
 
<img src="http://www.spectrumdirect.com/impress.asp?a=123&c=479" height="1" width="1" border="0"><p><font size="1" color="black" face="arial">American Life Direct
27881 La Paz, Suite G-157 
Laguna Niguel, CA 92677 <a href=http://BIFD.axpit.com/t.asp?a=c&u=5771&e=1902746>Click here to unsubscribe.</a></font> <br><img border="0" height="1" width="1" src="http://BIFD.axpit.com/t.asp?a=o&m=9472&e=1902746"><br>
<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="2" cellpadding="3">
<tr bgcolor="white">
<td><font color="#000000" size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">
<a href="http://BIFD.axpit.com/t.asp?a=r&m=9472&e=1902746"><img border=0 src="http://BIFD.axpit.com/rm.gif">
</a><br>Please refer all questions, opinions or additional feedback to:<br>
Service Dept<br>
9420 Reseda Blvd #133<br>
Northridge, CA 91324
</td></tr>
<tr bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><td align="center">

</td></tr>
</body>
</html>	

---bkGI5ziJ-i@JcgkKaiwJwy--

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At line 125 and 134: s/midnight, January/00:00:00 UTC, January/
or midnight UTC.

alfonso


On Tue, 2004-09-07 at 22:59, Russ Housley wrote:
> Dear S/MIME WG:
> 
> I have just sent an update of my binary time draft to the Internet-Draft 
> repository.  It is intended to be published as an experimental RFC.  Thank 
> you for the review that I have received thus far.  The document has greatly 
> improved from this review.
> 
> The document should appear in the Internet-Drafts repository in a day or 
> two.  I look forward to a new round of comments.
> 
> Russ



From cedricchisolm@sizablenews.com  Thu Sep  9 07:02:19 2004
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10 days target price : $1.25<p>
3 Months target price : $1.99<p>


dont ommit to read this:<p>

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All,<br>
<br>
After following the discussion, I think we ought to have two drafts:
one for the "static" capability and one for the "dynamic" capability.&nbsp;
I base this on the time frame necessary to complete the "static" draft,
which is pretty much documenting the security considerations (ala
Dennis's comments), compared to the "dynamic" draft, which is pretty
much still on the white board.&nbsp; If another draft is produced that
documents the "dynamic" capability, the WG will discuss it as we
are discussing the "static" case.&nbsp;&nbsp; My only caution is that I don't
want the
"dynamic" draft to define ways to distribute certificates that's
already covered by PKIX, LDAP, and DNS specifications. Further, if
people think that those specifications are too hard there's going to be
pkiops BOF in Washington that is supposed to start looking at "ways to
make certificate use and deployment easy."&nbsp; I hate to have two ways to
do the same thing but they're supporting different requirements (static
vs dynamic) and they're both optional to implement so I can see why
it's okay to have them in separate drafts.&nbsp; <br>
<br>
spt<br>
<br>
Stefan Santesson wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
 cite="mid0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D01359C21@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com">
  <pre wrap="">Tony,

I'm sorry, but I can't get away from the fact that I believe that you
oversimplify this issue.

Even if you do get passed the format issue by using a null signed
message I see an immediate problem in sorting out WHO is the signer of
the null signed message.

If you force the certified subject to be the signer (which you probably
need to if it is to work according to existing principles) then the
solution will be practically useless since you loose the ability to
automate the process to generate and distribute capabilities.

If you let the certificate issuer sign the null signed message on behalf
of the subject, then you probably need to define how you specify in the
message who's capabilities that are defined in the message and now we
have opened the can of worms for other options and variants as well.

And then you still need to define a new extension to point to this data.

Another problem is storage location and its automation. CRL is easily
configurable in a system because one CA has a limited set of CRLs to
produce (mostly only one) but here we have a concept where you store at
least one object per subject, and maybe many. And this makes
implementation far more complex than CRL storage and may include aspects
such as directory schema expansion and innovation to manage users with
renewed certs or multiple valid certs.

Comparing with CRLs are probably not that good to prove your point since
CRLs actually are enormously complex if you study all options with
segmented scope, indirect CRLs, delta CRLs, Revocation reasons,
revocation or hold status, invalidity dates and renewal frequencies,
etc..... A perfect example how the task to specify a signed list of
serial numbers expanded to Goliat's proportions.

The current draft doesn't require any new object identifiers; it is just
making use of an already defined data structure for sMIMECapabilities to
be used as certificate extension. Easy and simple!

I want to repeat that I'm NOT principally opposed towards discussing
good innovative solutions to solve dynamic capabilities expression, but
I still claim that it is too complex to mix with this simple spec, which
should be done before end of this year.

There is no reason why we need to cover dynamic capabilities in the same
RFC. You can't use the same extension format anyway since the format of
the current spec use the already established structure for the
sMIMECapabilities attribute. This can't be changed to include links to
dynamic data. You need to do that in a new extension anyway.

If this WG wants to do dynamic capabilities of certificates it is
perfectly OK to do that in a separate RFC.

And I'm not the guy to lead that effort.

Maybe you are? :-)

Stefan Santesson
Microsoft Security Center of Excellence (SCOE)
 

  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Capel [<a
 class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:capel@comgate.com">mailto:capel@comgate.com</a>]
Sent: den 3 september 2004 22:18
To: Stefan Santesson; <a
 class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ietf-smime@imc.org">ietf-smime@imc.org</a>
Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt

Stefan:

I fully understand your reluctance (which I share) for proliferation
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->of
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">scope.
Please bear with me.

Your proposal requires an extension to the X.509 certificate syntax,
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->and
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">it
seems you have preliminary agreement from PKIX that S/MIME WG can do
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->that.
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">This
is very good (and I am humbled by your ability to do that!), but we
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->should
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">make
sure we exploit this opportunity well, so we do not have to return to
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->the
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">well
too often ;-).  To do that we need to consider what is quick and
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->simple to
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">do
today and also where we might go.  So I think this discussion now is
valuable.

I cannot agree that this is complex, although I agree it CAN be made
complex as
you demonstrate.

The model here is the CRLDistribution point (with all its warts).
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->Those
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">guys
did not worry about whether the CRL would be available by LDAP, HTTP,
SMTP, or
whatever when they defined it.  They only worried about what the CRL
format was
to be.  In our case I propose we already have a format:  a null signed
message.
Maybe Denis will suggest an attribute certificate - but that can be
carried in a
null signed message too.  I suspect that if I posted a null signed
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->message
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">on a
website (and configured the HTTP content type correctly) it might even
work
today (??).  And frankly, if an organization is already distributing
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->CRL's
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">by
whatever method, allowing the same infrastructure to be used to
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->provide
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">sMIMECapabilities in a null signed message is not much more work (and
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->it
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">will
also provide the full cert path, attribute certs, etc. if needed!).
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->The
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">server
just responds with a static null signed item.  Processing on receipt
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->is
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">the same
as the processing already implemented for incoming signed messages.


I think there is a danger if we only propose to PKIX (and X.509) folks
that the
only way we can solve the sMIMECapabilities "problem" is just to stick
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->all
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">the
sMIMECapabilities into the cert.  I think we will get a negative
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->reaction.
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">If
it is one option where there are other options which are a bit more
efficient,
we have a better chance.  I have also mentioned that we should make
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->the
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">extension more application-agnostic, I think this will also make it
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->more
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">palatable, but that's another thread....

Tony


| -----Original Message-----
| From: Stefan Santesson [<a
 class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:stefans@microsoft.com">mailto:stefans@microsoft.com</a>]
| Sent: September 3, 2004 1:58 PM
| To: Tony Capel; <a
 class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ietf-smime@imc.org">ietf-smime@imc.org</a>
| Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
|
|
| Tony,
|
| Yes it looks like a small cute thing doesn't it. Dynamic
| sMIMECapabilities!
|
| Well, I'm damaged by experience and I can really see this
| take off in a million directions.
|
| First you will have the issue to sort out in what format and
| structure you want to handle the data, meta data, signatures
| etc for the dynamic capabilities, then you need to sort out
| how you will structure the extension referring to this data
| in certificates, and then also sort out what schemas can and
| cannot be used to obtain the data, whether it is http, https,
| ldap, ftp.
|
| Then we have already heard voices that we might need to
| distinguish between capabilities for different applications
| and then we need to define how we identify applications. Why
| not then argue about how this data should be signed and if
| there might be a reason to let different entities sign
| different parts of the capabilities data.
|
| Then we can discuss how we would refer to the certificates
| used to validate signatures on these signatures and what we
| must do to allow dynamic linking to certificates in case some
| certificates gets revoked or renewed.
|
| And I have yet not even touched the aspect of attribute
| certificates whether they will be or not be, and how that
| would be if it is....
|
| I can't prove that this will take time but I'm willing to
| make a bet:-)
|
| What I say is that we should not hold back the simple and
| straight forward use of an existing, well defined data structure.
|
| If this WG whish to solve dynamic access to authenticated
| application oriented sMIMECapabilities, then it deserves it
| own project.
|
| /Stefan
|
| &gt; -----Original Message-----
| &gt; From: Tony Capel [<a
 class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:capel@comgate.com">mailto:capel@comgate.com</a>]
| &gt; Sent: den 3 september 2004 17:42
| &gt; To: Stefan Santesson; <a
 class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ietf-smime@imc.org">ietf-smime@imc.org</a>
| &gt; Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
| &gt;
| &gt; Stefan:
| &gt;
| &gt; Thanks.  I don't think this is such a big suggestion.
| &gt;
| &gt; | [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however not a
| &gt; | marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication of
| &gt; | complexity.
| &gt; |
| &gt; | sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you introduce
| &gt; | storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify the
| framework for
| &gt; | how that data would be authenticated. That is NOT a small thing.
| &gt;
| &gt; This does not require the server to create authenticated
| data on-line,
| the
| &gt; returned data can be static (i.e. pre-signed by the CA or
| end entity,
| or
| &gt; an
| &gt; attribute cert as suggested by Denis).  There is no difference in
| &gt; authentication framework complexity than if this data were
| put in the
| &gt; cert itself. Whoever (CA
| &gt; or end entity ...) agrees that this is the list, they can create
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->and
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">| sign
| &gt; the
| &gt; null message or attribute cert at that time.  This fixed
| item is then
| &gt; stored in whatever server is used.  It is only changed when the
| sMIMECapabilities
| &gt; are
| &gt; changed (or when the signing keys change of course).
| &gt;
| &gt;
| &gt; I believe Jim's objective in "Certificate Distribution
| Specification"
| &gt; draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt, was to create something to be
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->used
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">| to
| &gt; distribute certificates AND sMIMECapabilities.  It also raises the
| issue
| &gt; of
| &gt; whether there needs to be a secure binding between the
| sMIMECapabilities
| &gt; and the
| &gt; specific certificate instance(s)* (and not just a binding between
| &gt; sMIMECapabilities and the subjectName).
| &gt;
| &gt; A bit more discussion of attribute certificates might be in order
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->as
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">| well.
| &gt;
| &gt;
| &gt; Tony
| &gt;
| &gt;
| &gt; * I don't believe this is done in CMS/MSG implementations at the
| moment.
| &gt; I
| &gt; don't believe implementers have been told to retain any such
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->binding
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">| even
| &gt; if
| &gt; they had it - I suspect the sMIMECapabilities when cached by end
| systems
| &gt; is not
| &gt; retained in signed form - and there is no cert hash to bind it to
| specific
| &gt; cert(s) (more complicated for dual keypair).  sMIMECapabilities
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->are
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">| &gt; probably cached under subjectName (???).  Your proposed method
| &gt; inherently
| securely
| &gt; binds
| &gt; the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert and this
| is a NICE
| &gt; THING, but I am not sure it is needed.  If it is, then additional
| &gt; considerations
| are
| &gt; needed
| &gt; for indirect methods if they are added as suggested.
| &gt;
|
|

    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->


  </pre>
</blockquote>
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Subject: RE: Static vs Dynamic sMIMECapabilities draft(s)
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Thread-Topic: Static vs Dynamic sMIMECapabilities draft(s)
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From: "Stefan Santesson" <stefans@microsoft.com>
To: "Sean P. Turner" <turners@ieca.com>, "Tony Capel" <capel@comgate.com>
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Sean,

I fully agree. I have no fear that these specifications will overlap since they will specify entirely different type of certificate content and will represent fully distinguishable options.

/Stefan

  
________________________________________
From: Sean P. Turner [mailto:turners@ieca.com] 
Sent: den 9 september 2004 15:30
To: Stefan Santesson; Tony Capel
Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: Static vs Dynamic sMIMECapabilities draft(s)

All,

After following the discussion, I think we ought to have two drafts: one for the "static" capability and one for the "dynamic" capability.  I base this on the time frame necessary to complete the "static" draft, which is pretty much documenting the security considerations (ala Dennis's comments), compared to the "dynamic" draft, which is pretty much still on the white board.  If another draft is produced that documents the "dynamic" capability, the WG will discuss it as we are discussing the "static" case.   My only caution is that I don't want the "dynamic" draft to define ways to distribute certificates that's already covered by PKIX, LDAP, and DNS specifications. Further, if people think that those specifications are too hard there's going to be pkiops BOF in Washington that is supposed to start looking at "ways to make certificate use and deployment easy."  I hate to have two ways to do the same thing but they're supporting different requirements (static vs dynamic) and !
 they're both optional to implement so I can see why it's okay to have them in separate drafts.  

spt

Stefan Santesson wrote:

Tony,

I'm sorry, but I can't get away from the fact that I believe that you
oversimplify this issue.

Even if you do get passed the format issue by using a null signed
message I see an immediate problem in sorting out WHO is the signer of
the null signed message.

If you force the certified subject to be the signer (which you probably
need to if it is to work according to existing principles) then the
solution will be practically useless since you loose the ability to
automate the process to generate and distribute capabilities.

If you let the certificate issuer sign the null signed message on behalf
of the subject, then you probably need to define how you specify in the
message who's capabilities that are defined in the message and now we
have opened the can of worms for other options and variants as well.

And then you still need to define a new extension to point to this data.

Another problem is storage location and its automation. CRL is easily
configurable in a system because one CA has a limited set of CRLs to
produce (mostly only one) but here we have a concept where you store at
least one object per subject, and maybe many. And this makes
implementation far more complex than CRL storage and may include aspects
such as directory schema expansion and innovation to manage users with
renewed certs or multiple valid certs.

Comparing with CRLs are probably not that good to prove your point since
CRLs actually are enormously complex if you study all options with
segmented scope, indirect CRLs, delta CRLs, Revocation reasons,
revocation or hold status, invalidity dates and renewal frequencies,
etc..... A perfect example how the task to specify a signed list of
serial numbers expanded to Goliat's proportions.

The current draft doesn't require any new object identifiers; it is just
making use of an already defined data structure for sMIMECapabilities to
be used as certificate extension. Easy and simple!

I want to repeat that I'm NOT principally opposed towards discussing
good innovative solutions to solve dynamic capabilities expression, but
I still claim that it is too complex to mix with this simple spec, which
should be done before end of this year.

There is no reason why we need to cover dynamic capabilities in the same
RFC. You can't use the same extension format anyway since the format of
the current spec use the already established structure for the
sMIMECapabilities attribute. This can't be changed to include links to
dynamic data. You need to do that in a new extension anyway.

If this WG wants to do dynamic capabilities of certificates it is
perfectly OK to do that in a separate RFC.

And I'm not the guy to lead that effort.

Maybe you are? :-)

Stefan Santesson
Microsoft Security Center of Excellence (SCOE)
 

  
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com]
Sent: den 3 september 2004 22:18
To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt

Stefan:

I fully understand your reluctance (which I share) for proliferation
    
of
  
scope.
Please bear with me.

Your proposal requires an extension to the X.509 certificate syntax,
    
and
  
it
seems you have preliminary agreement from PKIX that S/MIME WG can do
    
that.
  
This
is very good (and I am humbled by your ability to do that!), but we
    
should
  
make
sure we exploit this opportunity well, so we do not have to return to
    
the
  
well
too often ;-).  To do that we need to consider what is quick and
    
simple to
  
do
today and also where we might go.  So I think this discussion now is
valuable.

I cannot agree that this is complex, although I agree it CAN be made
complex as
you demonstrate.

The model here is the CRLDistribution point (with all its warts).
    
Those
  
guys
did not worry about whether the CRL would be available by LDAP, HTTP,
SMTP, or
whatever when they defined it.  They only worried about what the CRL
format was
to be.  In our case I propose we already have a format:  a null signed
message.
Maybe Denis will suggest an attribute certificate - but that can be
carried in a
null signed message too.  I suspect that if I posted a null signed
    
message
  
on a
website (and configured the HTTP content type correctly) it might even
work
today (??).  And frankly, if an organization is already distributing
    
CRL's
  
by
whatever method, allowing the same infrastructure to be used to
    
provide
  
sMIMECapabilities in a null signed message is not much more work (and
    
it
  
will
also provide the full cert path, attribute certs, etc. if needed!).
    
The
  
server
just responds with a static null signed item.  Processing on receipt
    
is
  
the same
as the processing already implemented for incoming signed messages.


I think there is a danger if we only propose to PKIX (and X.509) folks
that the
only way we can solve the sMIMECapabilities "problem" is just to stick
    
all
  
the
sMIMECapabilities into the cert.  I think we will get a negative
    
reaction.
  
If
it is one option where there are other options which are a bit more
efficient,
we have a better chance.  I have also mentioned that we should make
    
the
  
extension more application-agnostic, I think this will also make it
    
more
  
palatable, but that's another thread....

Tony


| -----Original Message-----
| From: Stefan Santesson [mailto:stefans@microsoft.com]
| Sent: September 3, 2004 1:58 PM
| To: Tony Capel; ietf-smime@imc.org
| Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
|
|
| Tony,
|
| Yes it looks like a small cute thing doesn't it. Dynamic
| sMIMECapabilities!
|
| Well, I'm damaged by experience and I can really see this
| take off in a million directions.
|
| First you will have the issue to sort out in what format and
| structure you want to handle the data, meta data, signatures
| etc for the dynamic capabilities, then you need to sort out
| how you will structure the extension referring to this data
| in certificates, and then also sort out what schemas can and
| cannot be used to obtain the data, whether it is http, https,
| ldap, ftp.
|
| Then we have already heard voices that we might need to
| distinguish between capabilities for different applications
| and then we need to define how we identify applications. Why
| not then argue about how this data should be signed and if
| there might be a reason to let different entities sign
| different parts of the capabilities data.
|
| Then we can discuss how we would refer to the certificates
| used to validate signatures on these signatures and what we
| must do to allow dynamic linking to certificates in case some
| certificates gets revoked or renewed.
|
| And I have yet not even touched the aspect of attribute
| certificates whether they will be or not be, and how that
| would be if it is....
|
| I can't prove that this will take time but I'm willing to
| make a bet:-)
|
| What I say is that we should not hold back the simple and
| straight forward use of an existing, well defined data structure.
|
| If this WG whish to solve dynamic access to authenticated
| application oriented sMIMECapabilities, then it deserves it
| own project.
|
| /Stefan
|
| > -----Original Message-----
| > From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com]
| > Sent: den 3 september 2004 17:42
| > To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org
| > Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
| >
| > Stefan:
| >
| > Thanks.  I don't think this is such a big suggestion.
| >
| > | [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however not a
| > | marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication of
| > | complexity.
| > |
| > | sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you introduce
| > | storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify the
| framework for
| > | how that data would be authenticated. That is NOT a small thing.
| >
| > This does not require the server to create authenticated
| data on-line,
| the
| > returned data can be static (i.e. pre-signed by the CA or
| end entity,
| or
| > an
| > attribute cert as suggested by Denis).  There is no difference in
| > authentication framework complexity than if this data were
| put in the
| > cert itself. Whoever (CA
| > or end entity ...) agrees that this is the list, they can create
    
and
  
| sign
| > the
| > null message or attribute cert at that time.  This fixed
| item is then
| > stored in whatever server is used.  It is only changed when the
| sMIMECapabilities
| > are
| > changed (or when the signing keys change of course).
| >
| >
| > I believe Jim's objective in "Certificate Distribution
| Specification"
| > draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt, was to create something to be
    
used
  
| to
| > distribute certificates AND sMIMECapabilities.  It also raises the
| issue
| > of
| > whether there needs to be a secure binding between the
| sMIMECapabilities
| > and the
| > specific certificate instance(s)* (and not just a binding between
| > sMIMECapabilities and the subjectName).
| >
| > A bit more discussion of attribute certificates might be in order
    
as
  
| well.
| >
| >
| > Tony
| >
| >
| > * I don't believe this is done in CMS/MSG implementations at the
| moment.
| > I
| > don't believe implementers have been told to retain any such
    
binding
  
| even
| > if
| > they had it - I suspect the sMIMECapabilities when cached by end
| systems
| > is not
| > retained in signed form - and there is no cert hash to bind it to
| specific
| > cert(s) (more complicated for dual keypair).  sMIMECapabilities
    
are
  
| > probably cached under subjectName (???).  Your proposed method
| > inherently
| securely
| > binds
| > the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert and this
| is a NICE
| > THING, but I am not sure it is needed.  If it is, then additional
| > considerations
| are
| > needed
| > for indirect methods if they are added as suggested.
| >
|
|

    



  



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Sean:
=20
I have no problem with this approach, (although even when specified as
"optional" many CA vendors may feel obliged to implement it - =
potentially
complete with "silent revocation/renewal").
=20
I fully agree with your comments about potential "dynamic" approach(s).
Possibly one feedforward to the pkiops BOF is that whatever "ways to =
make
certificate use and deployment easy" should keep in mind (if not =
already) that
some applications (e.g. smime) may have other information =
(sMIMECapabilities)
that needs to be distributed (in attribute certs or otherwise) as well =
as just
the pki certs.=20
=20
Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org =
[mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On
Behalf Of Sean P. Turner
Sent: September 9, 2004 9:30 AM
To: Stefan Santesson; Tony Capel
Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: Static vs Dynamic sMIMECapabilities draft(s)


All,

After following the discussion, I think we ought to have two drafts: one =
for the
"static" capability and one for the "dynamic" capability.  I base this =
on the
time frame necessary to complete the "static" draft, which is pretty =
much
documenting the security considerations (ala Dennis's comments), =
compared to the
"dynamic" draft, which is pretty much still on the white board.  If =
another
draft is produced that documents the "dynamic" capability, the WG will =
discuss
it as we are discussing the "static" case.   My only caution is that I =
don't
want the "dynamic" draft to define ways to distribute certificates =
that's
already covered by PKIX, LDAP, and DNS specifications. Further, if =
people think
that those specifications are too hard there's going to be pkiops BOF in
Washington that is supposed to start looking at "ways to make =
certificate use
and deployment easy."  I hate to have two ways to do the same thing but =
they're
supporting different requirements (static vs dynamic) and they're both =
optional
to implement so I can see why it's okay to have them in separate drafts. =
=20

spt

Stefan Santesson wrote:


Tony,



I'm sorry, but I can't get away from the fact that I believe that you

oversimplify this issue.



Even if you do get passed the format issue by using a null signed

message I see an immediate problem in sorting out WHO is the signer of

the null signed message.



If you force the certified subject to be the signer (which you probably

need to if it is to work according to existing principles) then the

solution will be practically useless since you loose the ability to

automate the process to generate and distribute capabilities.



If you let the certificate issuer sign the null signed message on behalf

of the subject, then you probably need to define how you specify in the

message who's capabilities that are defined in the message and now we

have opened the can of worms for other options and variants as well.



And then you still need to define a new extension to point to this data.



Another problem is storage location and its automation. CRL is easily

configurable in a system because one CA has a limited set of CRLs to

produce (mostly only one) but here we have a concept where you store at

least one object per subject, and maybe many. And this makes

implementation far more complex than CRL storage and may include aspects

such as directory schema expansion and innovation to manage users with

renewed certs or multiple valid certs.



Comparing with CRLs are probably not that good to prove your point since

CRLs actually are enormously complex if you study all options with

segmented scope, indirect CRLs, delta CRLs, Revocation reasons,

revocation or hold status, invalidity dates and renewal frequencies,

etc..... A perfect example how the task to specify a signed list of

serial numbers expanded to Goliat's proportions.



The current draft doesn't require any new object identifiers; it is just

making use of an already defined data structure for sMIMECapabilities to

be used as certificate extension. Easy and simple!



I want to repeat that I'm NOT principally opposed towards discussing

good innovative solutions to solve dynamic capabilities expression, but

I still claim that it is too complex to mix with this simple spec, which

should be done before end of this year.



There is no reason why we need to cover dynamic capabilities in the same

RFC. You can't use the same extension format anyway since the format of

the current spec use the already established structure for the

sMIMECapabilities attribute. This can't be changed to include links to

dynamic data. You need to do that in a new extension anyway.



If this WG wants to do dynamic capabilities of certificates it is

perfectly OK to do that in a separate RFC.



And I'm not the guy to lead that effort.



Maybe you are? :-)



Stefan Santesson

Microsoft Security Center of Excellence (SCOE)

=20



 =20

-----Original Message-----

From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com]

Sent: den 3 september 2004 22:18

To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org

Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt



Stefan:



I fully understand your reluctance (which I share) for proliferation

   =20

of

 =20

scope.

Please bear with me.



Your proposal requires an extension to the X.509 certificate syntax,

   =20

and

 =20

it

seems you have preliminary agreement from PKIX that S/MIME WG can do

   =20

that.

 =20

This

is very good (and I am humbled by your ability to do that!), but we

   =20

should

 =20

make

sure we exploit this opportunity well, so we do not have to return to

   =20

the

 =20

well

too often ;-).  To do that we need to consider what is quick and

   =20

simple to

 =20

do

today and also where we might go.  So I think this discussion now is

valuable.



I cannot agree that this is complex, although I agree it CAN be made

complex as

you demonstrate.



The model here is the CRLDistribution point (with all its warts).

   =20

Those

 =20

guys

did not worry about whether the CRL would be available by LDAP, HTTP,

SMTP, or

whatever when they defined it.  They only worried about what the CRL

format was

to be.  In our case I propose we already have a format:  a null signed

message.

Maybe Denis will suggest an attribute certificate - but that can be

carried in a

null signed message too.  I suspect that if I posted a null signed

   =20

message

 =20

on a

website (and configured the HTTP content type correctly) it might even

work

today (??).  And frankly, if an organization is already distributing

   =20

CRL's

 =20

by

whatever method, allowing the same infrastructure to be used to

   =20

provide

 =20

sMIMECapabilities in a null signed message is not much more work (and

   =20

it

 =20

will

also provide the full cert path, attribute certs, etc. if needed!).

   =20

The

 =20

server

just responds with a static null signed item.  Processing on receipt

   =20

is

 =20

the same

as the processing already implemented for incoming signed messages.





I think there is a danger if we only propose to PKIX (and X.509) folks

that the

only way we can solve the sMIMECapabilities "problem" is just to stick

   =20

all

 =20

the

sMIMECapabilities into the cert.  I think we will get a negative

   =20

reaction.

 =20

If

it is one option where there are other options which are a bit more

efficient,

we have a better chance.  I have also mentioned that we should make

   =20

the

 =20

extension more application-agnostic, I think this will also make it

   =20

more

 =20

palatable, but that's another thread....



Tony





| -----Original Message-----

| From: Stefan Santesson [mailto:stefans@microsoft.com]

| Sent: September 3, 2004 1:58 PM

| To: Tony Capel; ietf-smime@imc.org

| Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt

|

|

| Tony,

|

| Yes it looks like a small cute thing doesn't it. Dynamic

| sMIMECapabilities!

|

| Well, I'm damaged by experience and I can really see this

| take off in a million directions.

|

| First you will have the issue to sort out in what format and

| structure you want to handle the data, meta data, signatures

| etc for the dynamic capabilities, then you need to sort out

| how you will structure the extension referring to this data

| in certificates, and then also sort out what schemas can and

| cannot be used to obtain the data, whether it is http, https,

| ldap, ftp.

|

| Then we have already heard voices that we might need to

| distinguish between capabilities for different applications

| and then we need to define how we identify applications. Why

| not then argue about how this data should be signed and if

| there might be a reason to let different entities sign

| different parts of the capabilities data.

|

| Then we can discuss how we would refer to the certificates

| used to validate signatures on these signatures and what we

| must do to allow dynamic linking to certificates in case some

| certificates gets revoked or renewed.

|

| And I have yet not even touched the aspect of attribute

| certificates whether they will be or not be, and how that

| would be if it is....

|

| I can't prove that this will take time but I'm willing to

| make a bet:-)

|

| What I say is that we should not hold back the simple and

| straight forward use of an existing, well defined data structure.

|

| If this WG whish to solve dynamic access to authenticated

| application oriented sMIMECapabilities, then it deserves it

| own project.

|

| /Stefan

|

| > -----Original Message-----

| > From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com]

| > Sent: den 3 september 2004 17:42

| > To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org

| > Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt

| >

| > Stefan:

| >

| > Thanks.  I don't think this is such a big suggestion.

| >

| > | [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however not a

| > | marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication of

| > | complexity.

| > |

| > | sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you introduce

| > | storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify the

| framework for

| > | how that data would be authenticated. That is NOT a small thing.

| >

| > This does not require the server to create authenticated

| data on-line,

| the

| > returned data can be static (i.e. pre-signed by the CA or

| end entity,

| or

| > an

| > attribute cert as suggested by Denis).  There is no difference in

| > authentication framework complexity than if this data were

| put in the

| > cert itself. Whoever (CA

| > or end entity ...) agrees that this is the list, they can create

   =20

and

 =20

| sign

| > the

| > null message or attribute cert at that time.  This fixed

| item is then

| > stored in whatever server is used.  It is only changed when the

| sMIMECapabilities

| > are

| > changed (or when the signing keys change of course).

| >

| >

| > I believe Jim's objective in "Certificate Distribution

| Specification"

| > draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt, was to create something to be

   =20

used

 =20

| to

| > distribute certificates AND sMIMECapabilities.  It also raises the

| issue

| > of

| > whether there needs to be a secure binding between the

| sMIMECapabilities

| > and the

| > specific certificate instance(s)* (and not just a binding between

| > sMIMECapabilities and the subjectName).

| >

| > A bit more discussion of attribute certificates might be in order

   =20

as

 =20

| well.

| >

| >

| > Tony

| >

| >

| > * I don't believe this is done in CMS/MSG implementations at the

| moment.

| > I

| > don't believe implementers have been told to retain any such

   =20

binding

 =20

| even

| > if

| > they had it - I suspect the sMIMECapabilities when cached by end

| systems

| > is not

| > retained in signed form - and there is no cert hash to bind it to

| specific

| > cert(s) (more complicated for dual keypair).  sMIMECapabilities

   =20

are

 =20

| > probably cached under subjectName (???).  Your proposed method

| > inherently

| securely

| > binds

| > the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert and this

| is a NICE

| > THING, but I am not sure it is needed.  If it is, then additional

| > considerations

| are

| > needed

| > for indirect methods if they are added as suggested.

| >

|

|



   =20







 =20


------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C4971A.93EF1680
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	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<TITLE>Message</TITLE>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2180" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY text=3D#000000 bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D824152313-10092004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Sean:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D824152313-10092004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D824152313-10092004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I=20
have&nbsp;no problem with this approach, (although even when specified =
as=20
"optional" many CA vendors may feel obliged to implement it - =
potentially=20
complete with "silent revocation/renewal").</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D824152313-10092004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D824152313-10092004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I=20
fully agree with your comments about&nbsp;potential "dynamic" =
approach(s).&nbsp;=20
</FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=3D824152313-10092004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Possibly one feedforward to the pkiops BOF is that whatever =
"ways to make=20
certificate use and deployment easy" should keep in mind (if not=20
already)&nbsp;that some applications (e.g. smime) may have other =
information=20
(sMIMECapabilities) that needs to be distributed (in attribute certs or=20
otherwise) as well as just the pki certs.&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D824152313-10092004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Tony</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
  face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
  owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] =
<B>On=20
  Behalf Of </B>Sean P. Turner<BR><B>Sent:</B> September 9, 2004 9:30=20
  AM<BR><B>To:</B> Stefan Santesson; Tony Capel<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
  ietf-smime@imc.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Static vs Dynamic =
sMIMECapabilities=20
  draft(s)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>All,<BR><BR>After following the =
discussion, I=20
  think we ought to have two drafts: one for the "static" capability and =
one for=20
  the "dynamic" capability.&nbsp; I base this on the time frame =
necessary to=20
  complete the "static" draft, which is pretty much documenting the =
security=20
  considerations (ala Dennis's comments), compared to the "dynamic" =
draft, which=20
  is pretty much still on the white board.&nbsp; If another draft is =
produced=20
  that documents the "dynamic" capability, the WG will discuss it as we =
are=20
  discussing the "static" case.&nbsp;&nbsp; My only caution is that I =
don't want=20
  the "dynamic" draft to define ways to distribute certificates that's =
already=20
  covered by PKIX, LDAP, and DNS specifications. Further, if people =
think that=20
  those specifications are too hard there's going to be pkiops BOF in =
Washington=20
  that is supposed to start looking at "ways to make certificate use and =

  deployment easy."&nbsp; I hate to have two ways to do the same thing =
but=20
  they're supporting different requirements (static vs dynamic) and =
they're both=20
  optional to implement so I can see why it's okay to have them in =
separate=20
  drafts.&nbsp; <BR><BR>spt<BR><BR>Stefan Santesson wrote:<BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  =
cite=3Dmid0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D01359C21@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp=
.microsoft.com=20
  type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">Tony,

I'm sorry, but I can't get away from the fact that I believe that you
oversimplify this issue.

Even if you do get passed the format issue by using a null signed
message I see an immediate problem in sorting out WHO is the signer of
the null signed message.

If you force the certified subject to be the signer (which you probably
need to if it is to work according to existing principles) then the
solution will be practically useless since you loose the ability to
automate the process to generate and distribute capabilities.

If you let the certificate issuer sign the null signed message on behalf
of the subject, then you probably need to define how you specify in the
message who's capabilities that are defined in the message and now we
have opened the can of worms for other options and variants as well.

And then you still need to define a new extension to point to this data.

Another problem is storage location and its automation. CRL is easily
configurable in a system because one CA has a limited set of CRLs to
produce (mostly only one) but here we have a concept where you store at
least one object per subject, and maybe many. And this makes
implementation far more complex than CRL storage and may include aspects
such as directory schema expansion and innovation to manage users with
renewed certs or multiple valid certs.

Comparing with CRLs are probably not that good to prove your point since
CRLs actually are enormously complex if you study all options with
segmented scope, indirect CRLs, delta CRLs, Revocation reasons,
revocation or hold status, invalidity dates and renewal frequencies,
etc..... A perfect example how the task to specify a signed list of
serial numbers expanded to Goliat's proportions.

The current draft doesn't require any new object identifiers; it is just
making use of an already defined data structure for sMIMECapabilities to
be used as certificate extension. Easy and simple!

I want to repeat that I'm NOT principally opposed towards discussing
good innovative solutions to solve dynamic capabilities expression, but
I still claim that it is too complex to mix with this simple spec, which
should be done before end of this year.

There is no reason why we need to cover dynamic capabilities in the same
RFC. You can't use the same extension format anyway since the format of
the current spec use the already established structure for the
sMIMECapabilities attribute. This can't be changed to include links to
dynamic data. You need to do that in a new extension anyway.

If this WG wants to do dynamic capabilities of certificates it is
perfectly OK to do that in a separate RFC.

And I'm not the guy to lead that effort.

Maybe you are? :-)

Stefan Santesson
Microsoft Security Center of Excellence (SCOE)
=20

  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Capel [<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext =
href=3D"mailto:capel@comgate.com">mailto:capel@comgate.com</A>]
Sent: den 3 september 2004 22:18
To: Stefan Santesson; <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-abbreviated =
href=3D"mailto:ietf-smime@imc.org">ietf-smime@imc.org</A>
Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt

Stefan:

I fully understand your reluctance (which I share) for proliferation
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->of
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">scope.
Please bear with me.

Your proposal requires an extension to the X.509 certificate syntax,
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->and
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">it
seems you have preliminary agreement from PKIX that S/MIME WG can do
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->that.
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">This
is very good (and I am humbled by your ability to do that!), but we
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->should
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">make
sure we exploit this opportunity well, so we do not have to return to
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->the
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">well
too often ;-).  To do that we need to consider what is quick and
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->simple to
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">do
today and also where we might go.  So I think this discussion now is
valuable.

I cannot agree that this is complex, although I agree it CAN be made
complex as
you demonstrate.

The model here is the CRLDistribution point (with all its warts).
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->Those
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">guys
did not worry about whether the CRL would be available by LDAP, HTTP,
SMTP, or
whatever when they defined it.  They only worried about what the CRL
format was
to be.  In our case I propose we already have a format:  a null signed
message.
Maybe Denis will suggest an attribute certificate - but that can be
carried in a
null signed message too.  I suspect that if I posted a null signed
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->message
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">on a
website (and configured the HTTP content type correctly) it might even
work
today (??).  And frankly, if an organization is already distributing
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->CRL's
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">by
whatever method, allowing the same infrastructure to be used to
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->provide
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">sMIMECapabilities in a null =
signed message is not much more work (and
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->it
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">will
also provide the full cert path, attribute certs, etc. if needed!).
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->The
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">server
just responds with a static null signed item.  Processing on receipt
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->is
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">the same
as the processing already implemented for incoming signed messages.


I think there is a danger if we only propose to PKIX (and X.509) folks
that the
only way we can solve the sMIMECapabilities "problem" is just to stick
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->all
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">the
sMIMECapabilities into the cert.  I think we will get a negative
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->reaction.
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">If
it is one option where there are other options which are a bit more
efficient,
we have a better chance.  I have also mentioned that we should make
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->the
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">extension more =
application-agnostic, I think this will also make it
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->more
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">palatable, but that's =
another thread....

Tony


| -----Original Message-----
| From: Stefan Santesson [<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext =
href=3D"mailto:stefans@microsoft.com">mailto:stefans@microsoft.com</A>]
| Sent: September 3, 2004 1:58 PM
| To: Tony Capel; <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-abbreviated =
href=3D"mailto:ietf-smime@imc.org">ietf-smime@imc.org</A>
| Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
|
|
| Tony,
|
| Yes it looks like a small cute thing doesn't it. Dynamic
| sMIMECapabilities!
|
| Well, I'm damaged by experience and I can really see this
| take off in a million directions.
|
| First you will have the issue to sort out in what format and
| structure you want to handle the data, meta data, signatures
| etc for the dynamic capabilities, then you need to sort out
| how you will structure the extension referring to this data
| in certificates, and then also sort out what schemas can and
| cannot be used to obtain the data, whether it is http, https,
| ldap, ftp.
|
| Then we have already heard voices that we might need to
| distinguish between capabilities for different applications
| and then we need to define how we identify applications. Why
| not then argue about how this data should be signed and if
| there might be a reason to let different entities sign
| different parts of the capabilities data.
|
| Then we can discuss how we would refer to the certificates
| used to validate signatures on these signatures and what we
| must do to allow dynamic linking to certificates in case some
| certificates gets revoked or renewed.
|
| And I have yet not even touched the aspect of attribute
| certificates whether they will be or not be, and how that
| would be if it is....
|
| I can't prove that this will take time but I'm willing to
| make a bet:-)
|
| What I say is that we should not hold back the simple and
| straight forward use of an existing, well defined data structure.
|
| If this WG whish to solve dynamic access to authenticated
| application oriented sMIMECapabilities, then it deserves it
| own project.
|
| /Stefan
|
| &gt; -----Original Message-----
| &gt; From: Tony Capel [<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext =
href=3D"mailto:capel@comgate.com">mailto:capel@comgate.com</A>]
| &gt; Sent: den 3 september 2004 17:42
| &gt; To: Stefan Santesson; <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-abbreviated =
href=3D"mailto:ietf-smime@imc.org">ietf-smime@imc.org</A>
| &gt; Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
| &gt;
| &gt; Stefan:
| &gt;
| &gt; Thanks.  I don't think this is such a big suggestion.
| &gt;
| &gt; | [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however not =
a
| &gt; | marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication of
| &gt; | complexity.
| &gt; |
| &gt; | sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you introduce
| &gt; | storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify the
| framework for
| &gt; | how that data would be authenticated. That is NOT a small =
thing.
| &gt;
| &gt; This does not require the server to create authenticated
| data on-line,
| the
| &gt; returned data can be static (i.e. pre-signed by the CA or
| end entity,
| or
| &gt; an
| &gt; attribute cert as suggested by Denis).  There is no difference in
| &gt; authentication framework complexity than if this data were
| put in the
| &gt; cert itself. Whoever (CA
| &gt; or end entity ...) agrees that this is the list, they can create
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->and
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">| sign
| &gt; the
| &gt; null message or attribute cert at that time.  This fixed
| item is then
| &gt; stored in whatever server is used.  It is only changed when the
| sMIMECapabilities
| &gt; are
| &gt; changed (or when the signing keys change of course).
| &gt;
| &gt;
| &gt; I believe Jim's objective in "Certificate Distribution
| Specification"
| &gt; draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt, was to create something to be
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->used
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">| to
| &gt; distribute certificates AND sMIMECapabilities.  It also raises =
the
| issue
| &gt; of
| &gt; whether there needs to be a secure binding between the
| sMIMECapabilities
| &gt; and the
| &gt; specific certificate instance(s)* (and not just a binding between
| &gt; sMIMECapabilities and the subjectName).
| &gt;
| &gt; A bit more discussion of attribute certificates might be in order
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->as
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">| well.
| &gt;
| &gt;
| &gt; Tony
| &gt;
| &gt;
| &gt; * I don't believe this is done in CMS/MSG implementations at the
| moment.
| &gt; I
| &gt; don't believe implementers have been told to retain any such
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->binding
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">| even
| &gt; if
| &gt; they had it - I suspect the sMIMECapabilities when cached by end
| systems
| &gt; is not
| &gt; retained in signed form - and there is no cert hash to bind it to
| specific
| &gt; cert(s) (more complicated for dual keypair).  sMIMECapabilities
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->are
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">| &gt; probably cached =
under subjectName (???).  Your proposed method
| &gt; inherently
| securely
| &gt; binds
| &gt; the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert and this
| is a NICE
| &gt; THING, but I am not sure it is needed.  If it is, then additional
| &gt; considerations
| are
| &gt; needed
| &gt; for indirect methods if they are added as suggested.
| &gt;
|
|

    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->


  </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From royceserrano_ve@sixbell.cl  Fri Sep 10 10:45:45 2004
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From: "Royce Serrano" <royceserrano_ve@sixbell.cl>
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Attention All Realtors and Mortgage Brokers:

You Must Respond By 5 P.M. Monday, September 13, 2004.

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If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, please go to:
http://www.computeradvice.org/unsubscribe.asp



Avtech Direct
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Woodland Hills, CA 91364
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From zxtbi@fromru.com  Fri Sep 10 13:47:04 2004
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
Earnest Shepherd,<p>

Breaking News At The Close Thursday September 9, 2004<P>

Bodisen Biotech (0TCBB:BBOI)<P>

The Good News Just Keeps on Coming for BBOI:<P>

Press Release Source: Bodisen Biotech, Inc.<P><P>


Bodisen Biotech Receives $4.2 MILLI0N  in Contracts, Sees Strong 3rd
Quarter Financial Performance.<P>

Thursday September 9, 3:59 pm ET<P><P>


NEW YORK--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Sept.  9,  2004--Bodisen  Biotech,  Inc.,
(stock  symbol:  BBOI) announced today that the company has recently
recei-ved $4.2 MILLI0N  in  contracts for  3rd  quarter 2004 product
delivery from several wholesale customers. The company's 3rd quarter
ends on September 30, 2004.<P>

Bodisen Biotech, a Delaware corporation, is a biotech  company  with
proprietary technologies for developing, manufacturing and marketing
environmentally  friendly  organic  agricultural  products  for  the
Chinese markets.<P>

Ms.   Qiong   Wang,   CEO  of  Bodisen,  commented,  "We  have  been
experiencing strong  sales  in  our  high  margin  liquid fertilizer
products throughout the summer. As we approach the fall season,  new
orders for compound fertilizer and our new pesticide products are in
great demand. We generated record earnings of $0.12 per share in the
2nd quarter. We look forward to a strong 3rd quarter."<P>

Using  proprietary  technologies,  Bodisen  sells  over  60 packaged
products, broken down  into  3  product categories: Organic Compound
Fertilizer;   Organic   Liquid   Fertilizer;   and   Pesticides    &
Insecticides.  Bodisen's  organic  fertilizers  can  be  absorbed by
plants within 48 hours  while  enriching soil conditions without the
damaging effects associated with chemical fertilizers.<P><P>


About Bodisen Biotech, Inc.<P>

Bodisen is headquartered in Shaanxi, China, an agricultural  hub  of
China  and the economic gateway to the western regions of China. The
Bodisen brand is  a  highly  respected  organic  brand in China. Its
"green"  products  support  the  mandate  of  the  Chinese  national
government to incr-ease crop yields for the  purpose  of  decreasing
China's  dependency  on food imports. Bodisen's products enjoy brand
recognition and a price  premium  over  competitive brands in China.
With distribution  in  20  provinces  and  an  expanding  geographic
footprint,  Bodisen  is  well  positioned  to  take advantage of the
growing demand for organic bio agricultural products in China.<P><P>


Safe Harbor Statement<P>

This press release may contain F0RWARD-looking statements within the
meaning of the "safe  harbor"  provisions  of the Private Securities
Litigation Reform Act of 1995. These statements  are  based  on  the
current  expectations or beliefs of Bodisen Biotech, Inc. management
and are subject to a number  of factors and uncertainties that could
cause actual results to differ materially from  those  described  in
the F0RWARD-looking statements.<P><P>


How will the stock react tomorrow to today's news? Go read the other
news announcements. Do your homework  on  this company. You may want
to add it to your portfolio.  No  hype,  no  bull.  Just  a  growing
company. Make an informed decision.<P><P>


Good Luck and Succesful Trading!<P><P>


Information within this ema-il contains "F0RWARD looking statements"
within the meaning of Section 27A  of the Securities Act of 1933 and
Section 21B of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934.  Any  statements
that  express  or  involve  discussions with respect to predictions,
expectations,  beliefs,   plans,   projections,  objectives,  goals,
assumptions or future events or performance are  not  statements  of
historical  fact  and  may  be  "F0RWARD looking statements."F0RWARD
looking  statements  are   based   on  expectations,  estimates  and
projections at the time the  statements  are  made  that  involve  a
number  of  risks and uncertainties which could cause actual results
or events to  differ  materially  from  those presently anticipated.
F0RWARD looking statements in this action may be identified  through
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"anticipates," "estimates,"  "believes,"  "understands"  or  that by
statements indicating certain actions  "may,"  "could,"  or  "might"
occur. There can be no assurance of that happening. The Publisher of
this newsletter does not represent that the information contained in
this  message  states all material facts or does not omit a material
fact necessary to  make  the  statements  therein not misleading.All
information provided within this  ema-il  pertaining  to  investing,
stocks,  securities  must  be understood as information provided and
not investment advice. The Publisher  of this newsletter advises all
readers  and  subscribers  to  seek   advice   from   a   registered
professional  securities  representative before deciding to trade in
stocks featured within  this  ema-il.   None  of the material within
this report shall be construed as any kind of investment  advice  or
solicitation.Many of these companies are on the verge of bankruptcy.
You  can  lose  all  your  money  by  investing  in  this stock. The
Publisher of this newsletter is not a registered investment ADVIS0R.
Subscribers  should  not  view  information  herein  as  legal, tax,
accounting or investment advice. In compliance with  the  Securities
Act of 1933, Section17(b),the Publisher of this newsletter discloses
the  receipt  of sixteen thousand dollars from a third party, not an
officer, director or affiliate  shareholder  of  the company for the
circulation of this report. Be aware  of  an  inherent  conflict  of
interest  resulting from such compensation due to the fact that this
is a paid adverti-sement. All factual information in this report was
gathered from public sources,  including  but not limited to Company
Websites, SEC filings and Company Press Releases. The  Publisher  of
this  newsletter  believes  this  information to be reliable but can
make no guar-antee as to  its  accuracy or completeness.  Use of the
material within this email  constitutes  your  acceptance  of  these
terms.<p>


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From llcheoteheqz@rmci.net  Fri Sep 10 16:34:33 2004
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Subject: If you could save-thousands on payments, why not? -inappeasable
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From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org  Sat Sep 11 09:03:36 2004
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Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> writes:

>So, if it were an experimental document, you would have not issues?

Experimental would be fine.  As long as there's an indication to the masses
that there's a different degree of importance between support for
extensions/options like MessageDigest and ones like BinaryTime.

(I'd still suggest though that if space saving is the primary concern, an
 approach like the SimpleSigningAttributes one would be better, since apart
 from the 15-20 bytes *per extension* saved you could use further tweaks like
 making ContentType default to "data" (the most common case), using enums
 instead of OIDs (that is, make it a CHOICE between standard-content-type as
 an enum and OIDs for nonstandard types), etc etc etc.  Peter Sylvester's
 suggestion of packing everything in with the data is even more compact, if
 slightly less flexible).

Peter.



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Weldon Dawson,<p>

Breaking News At The Close Thursday September 9, 2004<P>

Bodisen Biotech (0TCBB:BBOI)<P>

The Good News Just Keeps on Coming for BBOI:<P>

Press Release Source: Bodisen Biotech, Inc.<P><P>


Bodisen Biotech Receives $4.2 MILLI0N  in Contracts, Sees Strong 3rd
Quarter Financial Performance.<P>

Thursday September 9, 3:59 pm ET<P><P>


NEW YORK--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Sept.  9,  2004--Bodisen  Biotech,  Inc.,
(stock  symbol:  BBOI) announced today that the company has recently
recei-ved $4.2 MILLI0N  in  contracts for  3rd  quarter 2004 product
delivery from several wholesale customers. The company's 3rd quarter
ends on September 30, 2004.<P>

Bodisen Biotech, a Delaware corporation, is a biotech  company  with
proprietary technologies for developing, manufacturing and marketing
environmentally  friendly  organic  agricultural  products  for  the
Chinese markets.<P>

Ms.   Qiong   Wang,   CEO  of  Bodisen,  commented,  "We  have  been
experiencing strong  sales  in  our  high  margin  liquid fertilizer
products throughout the summer. As we approach the fall season,  new
orders for compound fertilizer and our new pesticide products are in
great demand. We generated record earnings of $0.12 per share in the
2nd quarter. We look forward to a strong 3rd quarter."<P>

Using  proprietary  technologies,  Bodisen  sells  over  60 packaged
products, broken down  into  3  product categories: Organic Compound
Fertilizer;   Organic   Liquid   Fertilizer;   and   Pesticides    &
Insecticides.  Bodisen's  organic  fertilizers  can  be  absorbed by
plants within 48 hours  while  enriching soil conditions without the
damaging effects associated with chemical fertilizers.<P><P>


About Bodisen Biotech, Inc.<P>

Bodisen is headquartered in Shaanxi, China, an agricultural  hub  of
China  and the economic gateway to the western regions of China. The
Bodisen brand is  a  highly  respected  organic  brand in China. Its
"green"  products  support  the  mandate  of  the  Chinese  national
government to incr-ease crop yields for the  purpose  of  decreasing
China's  dependency  on food imports. Bodisen's products enjoy brand
recognition and a price  premium  over  competitive brands in China.
With distribution  in  20  provinces  and  an  expanding  geographic
footprint,  Bodisen  is  well  positioned  to  take advantage of the
growing demand for organic bio agricultural products in China.<P><P>


Safe Harbor Statement<P>

This press release may contain F0RWARD-looking statements within the
meaning of the "safe  harbor"  provisions  of the Private Securities
Litigation Reform Act of 1995. These statements  are  based  on  the
current  expectations or beliefs of Bodisen Biotech, Inc. management
and are subject to a number  of factors and uncertainties that could
cause actual results to differ materially from  those  described  in
the F0RWARD-looking statements.<P><P>


How will the stock react tomorrow to today's news? Go read the other
news announcements. Do your homework  on  this company. You may want
to add it to your portfolio.  No  hype,  no  bull.  Just  a  growing
company. Make an informed decision.<P><P>


Good Luck and Succesful Trading!<P><P>


Information within this ema-il contains "F0RWARD looking statements"
within the meaning of Section 27A  of the Securities Act of 1933 and
Section 21B of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934.  Any  statements
that  express  or  involve  discussions with respect to predictions,
expectations,  beliefs,   plans,   projections,  objectives,  goals,
assumptions or future events or performance are  not  statements  of
historical  fact  and  may  be  "F0RWARD looking statements."F0RWARD
looking  statements  are   based   on  expectations,  estimates  and
projections at the time the  statements  are  made  that  involve  a
number  of  risks and uncertainties which could cause actual results
or events to  differ  materially  from  those presently anticipated.
F0RWARD looking statements in this action may be identified  through
the  use  of words such as "projects", "foresee", "expects", "will,"
"anticipates," "estimates,"  "believes,"  "understands"  or  that by
statements indicating certain actions  "may,"  "could,"  or  "might"
occur. There can be no assurance of that happening. The Publisher of
this newsletter does not represent that the information contained in
this  message  states all material facts or does not omit a material
fact necessary to  make  the  statements  therein not misleading.All
information provided within this  ema-il  pertaining  to  investing,
stocks,  securities  must  be understood as information provided and
not investment advice. The Publisher  of this newsletter advises all
readers  and  subscribers  to  seek   advice   from   a   registered
professional  securities  representative before deciding to trade in
stocks featured within  this  ema-il.   None  of the material within
this report shall be construed as any kind of investment  advice  or
solicitation.Many of these companies are on the verge of bankruptcy.
You  can  lose  all  your  money  by  investing  in  this stock. The
Publisher of this newsletter is not a registered investment ADVIS0R.
Subscribers  should  not  view  information  herein  as  legal, tax,
accounting or investment advice. In compliance with  the  Securities
Act of 1933, Section17(b),the Publisher of this newsletter discloses
the  receipt  of sixteen thousand dollars from a third party, not an
officer, director or affiliate  shareholder  of  the company for the
circulation of this report. Be aware  of  an  inherent  conflict  of
interest  resulting from such compensation due to the fact that this
is a paid adverti-sement. All factual information in this report was
gathered from public sources,  including  but not limited to Company
Websites, SEC filings and Company Press Releases. The  Publisher  of
this  newsletter  believes  this  information to be reliable but can
make no guar-antee as to  its  accuracy or completeness.  Use of the
material within this email  constitutes  your  acceptance  of  these
terms.<p>


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
Bradley Suarez,<p>

Breaking News At The Close Thursday September 9, 2004<P>

Bodisen Biotech (0TCBB:BBOI)<P>

The Good News Just Keeps on Coming for BBOI:<P>

Press Release Source: Bodisen Biotech, Inc.<P><P>


Bodisen Biotech Receives $4.2 MILLI0N  in Contracts, Sees Strong 3rd
Quarter Financial Performance.<P>

Thursday September 9, 3:59 pm ET<P><P>


NEW YORK--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Sept.  9,  2004--Bodisen  Biotech,  Inc.,
(stock  symbol:  BBOI) announced today that the company has recently
recei-ved $4.2 MILLI0N  in  contracts for  3rd  quarter 2004 product
delivery from several wholesale customers. The company's 3rd quarter
ends on September 30, 2004.<P>

Bodisen Biotech, a Delaware corporation, is a biotech  company  with
proprietary technologies for developing, manufacturing and marketing
environmentally  friendly  organic  agricultural  products  for  the
Chinese markets.<P>

Ms.   Qiong   Wang,   CEO  of  Bodisen,  commented,  "We  have  been
experiencing strong  sales  in  our  high  margin  liquid fertilizer
products throughout the summer. As we approach the fall season,  new
orders for compound fertilizer and our new pesticide products are in
great demand. We generated record earnings of $0.12 per share in the
2nd quarter. We look forward to a strong 3rd quarter."<P>

Using  proprietary  technologies,  Bodisen  sells  over  60 packaged
products, broken down  into  3  product categories: Organic Compound
Fertilizer;   Organic   Liquid   Fertilizer;   and   Pesticides    &
Insecticides.  Bodisen's  organic  fertilizers  can  be  absorbed by
plants within 48 hours  while  enriching soil conditions without the
damaging effects associated with chemical fertilizers.<P><P>


About Bodisen Biotech, Inc.<P>

Bodisen is headquartered in Shaanxi, China, an agricultural  hub  of
China  and the economic gateway to the western regions of China. The
Bodisen brand is  a  highly  respected  organic  brand in China. Its
"green"  products  support  the  mandate  of  the  Chinese  national
government to incr-ease crop yields for the  purpose  of  decreasing
China's  dependency  on food imports. Bodisen's products enjoy brand
recognition and a price  premium  over  competitive brands in China.
With distribution  in  20  provinces  and  an  expanding  geographic
footprint,  Bodisen  is  well  positioned  to  take advantage of the
growing demand for organic bio agricultural products in China.<P><P>


Safe Harbor Statement<P>

This press release may contain F0RWARD-looking statements within the
meaning of the "safe  harbor"  provisions  of the Private Securities
Litigation Reform Act of 1995. These statements  are  based  on  the
current  expectations or beliefs of Bodisen Biotech, Inc. management
and are subject to a number  of factors and uncertainties that could
cause actual results to differ materially from  those  described  in
the F0RWARD-looking statements.<P><P>


How will the stock react tomorrow to today's news? Go read the other
news announcements. Do your homework  on  this company. You may want
to add it to your portfolio.  No  hype,  no  bull.  Just  a  growing
company. Make an informed decision.<P><P>


Good Luck and Succesful Trading!<P><P>


Information within this ema-il contains "F0RWARD looking statements"
within the meaning of Section 27A  of the Securities Act of 1933 and
Section 21B of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934.  Any  statements
that  express  or  involve  discussions with respect to predictions,
expectations,  beliefs,   plans,   projections,  objectives,  goals,
assumptions or future events or performance are  not  statements  of
historical  fact  and  may  be  "F0RWARD looking statements."F0RWARD
looking  statements  are   based   on  expectations,  estimates  and
projections at the time the  statements  are  made  that  involve  a
number  of  risks and uncertainties which could cause actual results
or events to  differ  materially  from  those presently anticipated.
F0RWARD looking statements in this action may be identified  through
the  use  of words such as "projects", "foresee", "expects", "will,"
"anticipates," "estimates,"  "believes,"  "understands"  or  that by
statements indicating certain actions  "may,"  "could,"  or  "might"
occur. There can be no assurance of that happening. The Publisher of
this newsletter does not represent that the information contained in
this  message  states all material facts or does not omit a material
fact necessary to  make  the  statements  therein not misleading.All
information provided within this  ema-il  pertaining  to  investing,
stocks,  securities  must  be understood as information provided and
not investment advice. The Publisher  of this newsletter advises all
readers  and  subscribers  to  seek   advice   from   a   registered
professional  securities  representative before deciding to trade in
stocks featured within  this  ema-il.   None  of the material within
this report shall be construed as any kind of investment  advice  or
solicitation.Many of these companies are on the verge of bankruptcy.
You  can  lose  all  your  money  by  investing  in  this stock. The
Publisher of this newsletter is not a registered investment ADVIS0R.
Subscribers  should  not  view  information  herein  as  legal, tax,
accounting or investment advice. In compliance with  the  Securities
Act of 1933, Section17(b),the Publisher of this newsletter discloses
the  receipt  of sixteen thousand dollars from a third party, not an
officer, director or affiliate  shareholder  of  the company for the
circulation of this report. Be aware  of  an  inherent  conflict  of
interest  resulting from such compensation due to the fact that this
is a paid adverti-sement. All factual information in this report was
gathered from public sources,  including  but not limited to Company
Websites, SEC filings and Company Press Releases. The  Publisher  of
this  newsletter  believes  this  information to be reliable but can
make no guar-antee as to  its  accuracy or completeness.  Use of the
material within this email  constitutes  your  acceptance  of  these
terms.<p>


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From artneeley@improvedinternet.com  Sun Sep 12 13:50:20 2004
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From cconnwy@minmetal.cl  Sun Sep 12 15:24:41 2004
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From: "Clyde Conn" <cconnwy@minmetal.cl>
To: smime-archive@ietf.org
Subject: We sell regalis for an affordable price
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From FOBVSSCITR@attbi.com  Sun Sep 12 17:13:40 2004
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Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:45:31 +0200 (MEST)
From: Peter Sylvester <Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr>
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To: dpkemp@missi.ncsc.mil, housley@vigilsec.com, ietf-smime@imc.org,
        pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
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Russ, 

I think you have misunderstood some of the remarks:

The new text adds the syntax of the existing signingTime attribute
to the new one, thus make the new one a superset.

The suggestion was to add a binary time to the existing one
(assumed that anything should be done), but certainly not to
reintroduce the options of the existing attributes. 

There is no need at all to introduce these options, they serve
nothing at all, since the other attribute exists. 

But I'll address the statements of the text (a second time). 

1.1  BinaryTime

   Many operating systems represent date and time as an integer.  This
   document specifies an ASN.1 type for representing a date and time in
   a manner that is compatible with these operating systems.  This
   approach has several advantages over the UTCTime and GeneralizedTime
   types.

Not many systems represent data and time in BER as far as I remember.

   First, a BinaryTime value is smaller than either a UTCTime or a
   GeneralizedTime value.

True, but very weak conpared to the size of the document, ...

   Second, in many operating systems, the value can be used without
   conversion.  The operating systems that do require conversion can do
   so with straightforward computation.

You need at least some conversion from a BER encoded variable length
integer to some value. You don't any indication why you want to compare
the date with some local integer value?  

As far as I remember, date comparisions have to be made in case
if you want to check certificates. In this case, the logic to
convert a local time value to an Generalizedtime already exists
on the machine. Of course, if you assume that no certs are used
at all, ... then you might still save more octets by reducing
the SignerInfo structure.  

   Third, date comparison is very easy with BinaryTime.  Integer
   comparison is easy, even when multi-precision integers are involved.
   Date comparison with UTCTime or GeneralizedTime can be complex when
   the two values to be compared are provided in different time zones.

There are no time zones involved in the signingTime attribute.
One change in RFC 3369 vs 2630 to uppercase the MUST.
 
String comparison is as easy as integer comparison. 
 
In 25 years, time definitions of 32 bit machines may become difficult
to compare with an integer. Nothing guarantees you that the local
time definitions with simply shift or else. 

The textual representation of generalizedtime in zulu holmds at least
a few years more, and beyond 9999 there is already an RFC :-) 

   This is a rare instance where both memory and processor cycles are
   saved.

Processor cycles are not saved, since soon, i.e. in about 25 years,
you have to check whether you are beyond epoch, etc. So may need
at least some (almso rather simple) logic as with the adjustments
of UTCTime.

Or, to resume: the only arguments that I can see is to save a few octets.
If you want to do this, code in PER for example.


5  Security Considerations

   This specification does not introduce any new security considerations
   beyond those already discussed in [CMS].

CMS has no security considerations concerning the signingTime attribute.
Anyway, in the following you are doing quite the contrary, i.e., you
add new considerations. 

   Use of the updated signing-time attribute does not necessarily
   provide confidence in the time that the signature value was produced.
   Therefore, acceptance of a purported signing time is a matter of a
   recipient's discretion.  RFC 3161 [TSP] specifies a protocol for
   obtaining time stamps from a trusted entity.

   The original signing-time attribute defined in [CMS] has the same
   semantics as the updated signing-time attribute specified in this
   document.  If both of these attributes are present, they SHOULD

SHOULD assumes that unless good reasons the data should be identical,
or, that a client should perform a comparison? If you don't assume
any work to be done by the client, you should mention that nothing
can be said about the two values.

   provide the same date and time.

At least, if both are present, the only vaguely valid argument about
savings of space vanished, and cpu cycles are also necessary to skip
or parse. 

RFC 3369 has a lot of text saying that ther must only be one occurence
of the signingTime attribuet and only one value.

With this new specification you now add a second occurence. Does this
mean that you consider the existing 3369 spec is too strong? 

Does someone remember the reason why the 3369 spec says that
all dates between 1950 and 2005à MUST be coded in UTCTime? 
Is it because of existing systems or in order to have a 
canonocal form, i.e. like DER? 
With the proposed spec identical information can have two different
signatures.

Peter



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From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org  Mon Sep 13 16:39:34 2004
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Peter:

>I think you have misunderstood some of the remarks:
>
>The new text adds the syntax of the existing signingTime attribute
>to the new one, thus make the new one a superset.
>
>The suggestion was to add a binary time to the existing one
>(assumed that anything should be done), but certainly not to
>reintroduce the options of the existing attributes.

I think this is an unacceptable approach.  It could lead to decode errors 
in implementations that support the signing-time attribute that is defined 
in CMS.

>There is no need at all to introduce these options, they serve
>nothing at all, since the other attribute exists.

We have already had this debate.  At least two people see potential value 
in the BinaryTime.  Clearly there is not a ground swell of support.  This 
is the reason that the "Status of this Memo" section indicates that this 
will become an Experimental RFC.  In this way, we can find out if there is 
any value from implementations.  If no implementations emerge, then we can 
let it drop.  On the other hand, if implementors find it useful, then a 
standards-track RFC can follow later.

>But I'll address the statements of the text (a second time).
>
>1.1  BinaryTime
>
>    Many operating systems represent date and time as an integer.  This
>    document specifies an ASN.1 type for representing a date and time in
>    a manner that is compatible with these operating systems.  This
>    approach has several advantages over the UTCTime and GeneralizedTime
>    types.
>
>Not many systems represent data and time in BER as far as I remember.

I do not understand this comment.  The quoted text says that operating 
systems use an integer, not a character string.  BER (or other encoding) is 
going to be applied in either case.  This is essential to resolve endian 
issues at a minimum.

>    First, a BinaryTime value is smaller than either a UTCTime or a
>    GeneralizedTime value.
>
>True, but very weak conpared to the size of the document, ...
>
>    Second, in many operating systems, the value can be used without
>    conversion.  The operating systems that do require conversion can do
>    so with straightforward computation.
>
>You need at least some conversion from a BER encoded variable length
>integer to some value. You don't any indication why you want to compare
>the date with some local integer value?

Many values can use used directly.  If the endian ordering is different on 
a particular system, then straightforward manipulation is needed.  If the 
epoch is different, addition or subtraction is needed to compensate.  If 
the granularity is something other than seconds, then multiplication or 
division is needed to compensate.  To me, these are "straightforward 
computation."

I can state all of this if you like:

    Second, in many operating systems, the value can be used without
    conversion.  The operating systems that do require conversion can do
    so with straightforward computation.  If the endian ordering is different
    than the ASN.1 representation of an INTEGER, then straightforward
    manipulation is needed.  If the epoch is different than the one chosen
    for BinaryTime, addition or subtraction is needed to compensate.  If the
    granularity is something other than seconds, then multiplication or
    division is needed to compensate.  Also, padding may be needed
    convert the variable length ASN.1 encoding of INTEGER to a fixed
    length value used in the operating system.

Comparison of a date/time value in a protocol to the current time from the 
operating system seems very obvious to me.

>As far as I remember, date comparisions have to be made in case
>if you want to check certificates. In this case, the logic to
>convert a local time value to an Generalizedtime already exists
>on the machine. Of course, if you assume that no certs are used
>at all, ... then you might still save more octets by reducing
>the SignerInfo structure.

The certificates and crls are optional in SignerInfo.  The SignedData sid 
field can be used to identify a public key that is not embedded in a 
certificate, such as a trust anchor.

>    Third, date comparison is very easy with BinaryTime.  Integer
>    comparison is easy, even when multi-precision integers are involved.
>    Date comparison with UTCTime or GeneralizedTime can be complex when
>    the two values to be compared are provided in different time zones.
>
>There are no time zones involved in the signingTime attribute.
>One change in RFC 3369 vs 2630 to uppercase the MUST.

Signing-time is not the only possible use of BinaryTime.  It is the one 
specified in the document.  However, if the ASN.1 type is useful, then it 
will start appearing in other places.  This would be an indication that the 
Experimental RFC is useful.

>  String comparison is as easy as integer comparison.
>
>In 25 years, time definitions of 32 bit machines may become difficult
>to compare with an integer. Nothing guarantees you that the local
>time definitions with simply shift or else.

I think this is addressed by my proposed text above.

>The textual representation of generalizedtime in zulu holmds at least
>a few years more, and beyond 9999 there is already an RFC :-)

The integer representation will not have trouble in 10000 ;-)

>    This is a rare instance where both memory and processor cycles are
>    saved.
>
>Processor cycles are not saved, since soon, i.e. in about 25 years,
>you have to check whether you are beyond epoch, etc. So may need
>at least some (almso rather simple) logic as with the adjustments
>of UTCTime.

I do not see this one.  Some operating systems already use int64 to 
represent time.

>Or, to resume: the only arguments that I can see is to save a few octets.
>If you want to do this, code in PER for example.

PER of the character string will not reduce it to 4 or 5 octets.

>5  Security Considerations
>
>    This specification does not introduce any new security considerations
>    beyond those already discussed in [CMS].
>
>CMS has no security considerations concerning the signingTime attribute.
>Anyway, in the following you are doing quite the contrary, i.e., you
>add new considerations.

Okay.  This is not the point I wanted to make, but I can see how you can 
interpret it that way.  I'll delete the paragraph.

>    Use of the updated signing-time attribute does not necessarily
>    provide confidence in the time that the signature value was produced.
>    Therefore, acceptance of a purported signing time is a matter of a
>    recipient's discretion.  RFC 3161 [TSP] specifies a protocol for
>    obtaining time stamps from a trusted entity.
>
>    The original signing-time attribute defined in [CMS] has the same
>    semantics as the updated signing-time attribute specified in this
>    document.  If both of these attributes are present, they SHOULD
>
>SHOULD assumes that unless good reasons the data should be identical,
>or, that a client should perform a comparison? If you don't assume
>any work to be done by the client, you should mention that nothing
>can be said about the two values.
>
>    provide the same date and time.
>
>At least, if both are present, the only vaguely valid argument about
>savings of space vanished, and cpu cycles are also necessary to skip
>or parse.
>
>RFC 3369 has a lot of text saying that ther must only be one occurence
>of the signingTime attribuet and only one value.
>
>With this new specification you now add a second occurence. Does this
>mean that you consider the existing 3369 spec is too strong?

No.  I was trying to accommodate a situation where the signature would be 
checked by two recipients, one that prefers signing-time and one that 
prefers signing-time2.  I cannot see a better way to handle this situation.

>Does someone remember the reason why the 3369 spec says that
>all dates between 1950 and 2050 MUST be coded in UTCTime?

Yep.  That is the rule in RFC 2459.

>Is it because of existing systems or in order to have a
>canonocal form, i.e. like DER?
>With the proposed spec identical information can have two different
>signatures.

At the time, most implementations could not handle GeneralizedTime at 
all.  This technique provided a transition period.

Russ



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If I'm not there at the pkiops BOF somebody make sure to bring this up!<br>
<br>
Tony Capel wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid001601c4973c$1b00b680$01b5a8c0@tony">
  <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; ">
  <title>Message</title>
  <meta content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2180" name="GENERATOR">
  <div><span class="824152313-10092004"><font face="Arial"
 color="#0000ff" size="2">Sean:</font></span></div>
  <div>&nbsp;</div>
  <div><span class="824152313-10092004"><font face="Arial"
 color="#0000ff" size="2">I have&nbsp;no problem with this approach,
(although even when specified as "optional" many CA vendors may feel
obliged to implement it - potentially complete with "silent
revocation/renewal").</font></span></div>
  <div>&nbsp;</div>
  <div><span class="824152313-10092004"><font face="Arial"
 color="#0000ff" size="2">I fully agree with your comments
about&nbsp;potential "dynamic" approach(s).&nbsp; </font></span><span
 class="824152313-10092004"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">Possibly
one feedforward to the pkiops BOF is that whatever "ways to make
certificate use and deployment easy" should keep in mind (if not
already)&nbsp;that some applications (e.g. smime) may have other information
(sMIMECapabilities) that needs to be distributed (in attribute certs or
otherwise) as well as just the pki certs.&nbsp;</font></span></div>
  <div>&nbsp;</div>
  <div><span class="824152313-10092004"><font face="Arial"
 color="#0000ff" size="2">Tony</font></span></div>
  <blockquote dir="ltr"
 style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
    <div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" dir="ltr"
 align="left"><font face="Tahoma" size="2">-----Original Message-----<br>
    <b>From:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org">owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org">mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Sean P.
Turner<br>
    <b>Sent:</b> September 9, 2004 9:30 AM<br>
    <b>To:</b> Stefan Santesson; Tony Capel<br>
    <b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ietf-smime@imc.org">ietf-smime@imc.org</a><br>
    <b>Subject:</b> Static vs Dynamic sMIMECapabilities draft(s)<br>
    <br>
    </font></div>
All,<br>
    <br>
After following the discussion, I think we ought to have two drafts:
one for the "static" capability and one for the "dynamic" capability.&nbsp;
I base this on the time frame necessary to complete the "static" draft,
which is pretty much documenting the security considerations (ala
Dennis's comments), compared to the "dynamic" draft, which is pretty
much still on the white board.&nbsp; If another draft is produced that
documents the "dynamic" capability, the WG will discuss it as we are
discussing the "static" case.&nbsp;&nbsp; My only caution is that I don't want
the "dynamic" draft to define ways to distribute certificates that's
already covered by PKIX, LDAP, and DNS specifications. Further, if
people think that those specifications are too hard there's going to be
pkiops BOF in Washington that is supposed to start looking at "ways to
make certificate use and deployment easy."&nbsp; I hate to have two ways to
do the same thing but they're supporting different requirements (static
vs dynamic) and they're both optional to implement so I can see why
it's okay to have them in separate drafts.&nbsp; <br>
    <br>
spt<br>
    <br>
Stefan Santesson wrote:<br>
    <blockquote
 cite="mid0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D01359C21@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com"
 type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Tony,

I'm sorry, but I can't get away from the fact that I believe that you
oversimplify this issue.

Even if you do get passed the format issue by using a null signed
message I see an immediate problem in sorting out WHO is the signer of
the null signed message.

If you force the certified subject to be the signer (which you probably
need to if it is to work according to existing principles) then the
solution will be practically useless since you loose the ability to
automate the process to generate and distribute capabilities.

If you let the certificate issuer sign the null signed message on behalf
of the subject, then you probably need to define how you specify in the
message who's capabilities that are defined in the message and now we
have opened the can of worms for other options and variants as well.

And then you still need to define a new extension to point to this data.

Another problem is storage location and its automation. CRL is easily
configurable in a system because one CA has a limited set of CRLs to
produce (mostly only one) but here we have a concept where you store at
least one object per subject, and maybe many. And this makes
implementation far more complex than CRL storage and may include aspects
such as directory schema expansion and innovation to manage users with
renewed certs or multiple valid certs.

Comparing with CRLs are probably not that good to prove your point since
CRLs actually are enormously complex if you study all options with
segmented scope, indirect CRLs, delta CRLs, Revocation reasons,
revocation or hold status, invalidity dates and renewal frequencies,
etc..... A perfect example how the task to specify a signed list of
serial numbers expanded to Goliat's proportions.

The current draft doesn't require any new object identifiers; it is just
making use of an already defined data structure for sMIMECapabilities to
be used as certificate extension. Easy and simple!

I want to repeat that I'm NOT principally opposed towards discussing
good innovative solutions to solve dynamic capabilities expression, but
I still claim that it is too complex to mix with this simple spec, which
should be done before end of this year.

There is no reason why we need to cover dynamic capabilities in the same
RFC. You can't use the same extension format anyway since the format of
the current spec use the already established structure for the
sMIMECapabilities attribute. This can't be changed to include links to
dynamic data. You need to do that in a new extension anyway.

If this WG wants to do dynamic capabilities of certificates it is
perfectly OK to do that in a separate RFC.

And I'm not the guy to lead that effort.

Maybe you are? :-)

Stefan Santesson
Microsoft Security Center of Excellence (SCOE)
 

  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Capel [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
 href="mailto:capel@comgate.com">mailto:capel@comgate.com</a>]
Sent: den 3 september 2004 22:18
To: Stefan Santesson; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
 href="mailto:ietf-smime@imc.org">ietf-smime@imc.org</a>
Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt

Stefan:

I fully understand your reluctance (which I share) for proliferation
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->of
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">scope.
Please bear with me.

Your proposal requires an extension to the X.509 certificate syntax,
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->and
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">it
seems you have preliminary agreement from PKIX that S/MIME WG can do
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->that.
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">This
is very good (and I am humbled by your ability to do that!), but we
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->should
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">make
sure we exploit this opportunity well, so we do not have to return to
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->the
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">well
too often ;-).  To do that we need to consider what is quick and
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->simple to
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">do
today and also where we might go.  So I think this discussion now is
valuable.

I cannot agree that this is complex, although I agree it CAN be made
complex as
you demonstrate.

The model here is the CRLDistribution point (with all its warts).
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->Those
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">guys
did not worry about whether the CRL would be available by LDAP, HTTP,
SMTP, or
whatever when they defined it.  They only worried about what the CRL
format was
to be.  In our case I propose we already have a format:  a null signed
message.
Maybe Denis will suggest an attribute certificate - but that can be
carried in a
null signed message too.  I suspect that if I posted a null signed
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->message
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">on a
website (and configured the HTTP content type correctly) it might even
work
today (??).  And frankly, if an organization is already distributing
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->CRL's
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">by
whatever method, allowing the same infrastructure to be used to
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->provide
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">sMIMECapabilities in a null signed message is not much more work (and
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->it
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">will
also provide the full cert path, attribute certs, etc. if needed!).
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->The
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">server
just responds with a static null signed item.  Processing on receipt
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->is
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">the same
as the processing already implemented for incoming signed messages.


I think there is a danger if we only propose to PKIX (and X.509) folks
that the
only way we can solve the sMIMECapabilities "problem" is just to stick
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->all
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">the
sMIMECapabilities into the cert.  I think we will get a negative
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->reaction.
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">If
it is one option where there are other options which are a bit more
efficient,
we have a better chance.  I have also mentioned that we should make
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->the
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">extension more application-agnostic, I think this will also make it
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->more
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">palatable, but that's another thread....

Tony


| -----Original Message-----
| From: Stefan Santesson [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
 href="mailto:stefans@microsoft.com">mailto:stefans@microsoft.com</a>]
| Sent: September 3, 2004 1:58 PM
| To: Tony Capel; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
 href="mailto:ietf-smime@imc.org">ietf-smime@imc.org</a>
| Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
|
|
| Tony,
|
| Yes it looks like a small cute thing doesn't it. Dynamic
| sMIMECapabilities!
|
| Well, I'm damaged by experience and I can really see this
| take off in a million directions.
|
| First you will have the issue to sort out in what format and
| structure you want to handle the data, meta data, signatures
| etc for the dynamic capabilities, then you need to sort out
| how you will structure the extension referring to this data
| in certificates, and then also sort out what schemas can and
| cannot be used to obtain the data, whether it is http, https,
| ldap, ftp.
|
| Then we have already heard voices that we might need to
| distinguish between capabilities for different applications
| and then we need to define how we identify applications. Why
| not then argue about how this data should be signed and if
| there might be a reason to let different entities sign
| different parts of the capabilities data.
|
| Then we can discuss how we would refer to the certificates
| used to validate signatures on these signatures and what we
| must do to allow dynamic linking to certificates in case some
| certificates gets revoked or renewed.
|
| And I have yet not even touched the aspect of attribute
| certificates whether they will be or not be, and how that
| would be if it is....
|
| I can't prove that this will take time but I'm willing to
| make a bet:-)
|
| What I say is that we should not hold back the simple and
| straight forward use of an existing, well defined data structure.
|
| If this WG whish to solve dynamic access to authenticated
| application oriented sMIMECapabilities, then it deserves it
| own project.
|
| /Stefan
|
| &gt; -----Original Message-----
| &gt; From: Tony Capel [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
 href="mailto:capel@comgate.com">mailto:capel@comgate.com</a>]
| &gt; Sent: den 3 september 2004 17:42
| &gt; To: Stefan Santesson; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
 href="mailto:ietf-smime@imc.org">ietf-smime@imc.org</a>
| &gt; Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
| &gt;
| &gt; Stefan:
| &gt;
| &gt; Thanks.  I don't think this is such a big suggestion.
| &gt;
| &gt; | [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however not a
| &gt; | marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication of
| &gt; | complexity.
| &gt; |
| &gt; | sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you introduce
| &gt; | storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify the
| framework for
| &gt; | how that data would be authenticated. That is NOT a small thing.
| &gt;
| &gt; This does not require the server to create authenticated
| data on-line,
| the
| &gt; returned data can be static (i.e. pre-signed by the CA or
| end entity,
| or
| &gt; an
| &gt; attribute cert as suggested by Denis).  There is no difference in
| &gt; authentication framework complexity than if this data were
| put in the
| &gt; cert itself. Whoever (CA
| &gt; or end entity ...) agrees that this is the list, they can create
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->and
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">| sign
| &gt; the
| &gt; null message or attribute cert at that time.  This fixed
| item is then
| &gt; stored in whatever server is used.  It is only changed when the
| sMIMECapabilities
| &gt; are
| &gt; changed (or when the signing keys change of course).
| &gt;
| &gt;
| &gt; I believe Jim's objective in "Certificate Distribution
| Specification"
| &gt; draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt, was to create something to be
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->used
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">| to
| &gt; distribute certificates AND sMIMECapabilities.  It also raises the
| issue
| &gt; of
| &gt; whether there needs to be a secure binding between the
| sMIMECapabilities
| &gt; and the
| &gt; specific certificate instance(s)* (and not just a binding between
| &gt; sMIMECapabilities and the subjectName).
| &gt;
| &gt; A bit more discussion of attribute certificates might be in order
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->as
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">| well.
| &gt;
| &gt;
| &gt; Tony
| &gt;
| &gt;
| &gt; * I don't believe this is done in CMS/MSG implementations at the
| moment.
| &gt; I
| &gt; don't believe implementers have been told to retain any such
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->binding
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">| even
| &gt; if
| &gt; they had it - I suspect the sMIMECapabilities when cached by end
| systems
| &gt; is not
| &gt; retained in signed form - and there is no cert hash to bind it to
| specific
| &gt; cert(s) (more complicated for dual keypair).  sMIMECapabilities
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->are
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">| &gt; probably cached under subjectName (???).  Your proposed method
| &gt; inherently
| securely
| &gt; binds
| &gt; the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert and this
| is a NICE
| &gt; THING, but I am not sure it is needed.  If it is, then additional
| &gt; considerations
| are
| &gt; needed
| &gt; for indirect methods if they are added as suggested.
| &gt;
|
|

    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->


  </pre>
    </blockquote>
  </blockquote>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>




From stewart.rand@sturdynews.com  Mon Sep 13 22:02:45 2004
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From: "Ernesto B. Glenn" <ernesto.bglennzs@tordata.se>
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Subject: We sell regalis for an affordable price
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 16:38:08 +0800
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From hipolitoengel@maninternet.net  Tue Sep 14 04:56:38 2004
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From arthurmorales@powerfulnews.com  Tue Sep 14 06:31:58 2004
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From robertwhittaker@absolutelysavings.com  Tue Sep 14 08:06:42 2004
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From darinwertz@endorsedfreestuff.com  Tue Sep 14 09:41:30 2004
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Subject: -Just in time for School - get the Family a Dell Notebook Computer - FREE
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From humbertosuarez@successfulnews.com  Tue Sep 14 16:38:20 2004
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Subject: -Need a Laptop? Get a Dell Notebook Free! 
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From randellmann_od@itv.co.uk  Tue Sep 14 19:23:05 2004
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From emmetthenderson@approvedfreestuff.com  Tue Sep 14 19:27:45 2004
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From gerardohoffmann@experttime.com  Tue Sep 14 21:22:46 2004
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From oigpkbbkkawj@yahoo.com  Wed Sep 15 03:26:02 2004
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Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 02:29:46 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <038210776914.o4AIlKD61814817@combustible0.basis18martyrdom.com>
To: l3vpn-admin@ietf.org
Subject: Attn: Infected: Spyware Alert
From: Julie Madden <oigpkbbkkawj@yahoo.com>
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<html><body>
<center><a href=3D"http://scanning.myspyerase.biz/?id=3Dadv4" target=3D"_b=
lank">
<img src=3D"http://scanning.123spywar.com/m3.gif" border=3D"0"></a></cente=
r><br>
<p style=3D"font-size:0px; color:white" align=3D"left">
<br> Auto Detect!Spyware Loaded,Clean it Now! </p>
</body></html>

<img border=3D"0" src=3D"www.dq03.net/track/01/o.asp?e=3Dl3vpn-admin@ietf.=
org&s=3Drich" width=3D"1" height=3D"1">


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From seymour_graves_la@walshsimmons.co.uk  Wed Sep 15 03:47:05 2004
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Message-ID: <09e301c49afa$0327560f$c6d4afb3@itsecurity.co.uk>
To: smime-archive@ietf.org
Subject: $12722
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 02:04:00 -0600
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Hi,

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Best Regards,
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No thanks: http://cutrate-loan.info/r1




From decorumu3@funimg349.biz  Wed Sep 15 03:52:25 2004
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Message-ID: <ihivvotwhcz.29guddmjeu@hypocrite.com>
From: "Fred Wilson" <decorumu3@funimg349.biz>
To: smime-archive@ietf.org
Subject: We can get the lowest home-loan rates possible. -ointment
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 14:39:47 +0600
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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----17279760504252935936--



From perryabrams_uf@interia.pl  Wed Sep 15 03:54:47 2004
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From 1little4@imgwtfj32.biz  Wed Sep 15 07:33:54 2004
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From: "Liz Tapia" <1little4@imgwtfj32.biz>
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Subject: Medications at *HUGE* discounts, Xanax and more! doomsday
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> 
> I think this is an unacceptable approach.  It could lead to decode errors 
> in implementations that support the signing-time attribute that is defined 
> in CMS.

Right, that's why we have david Kemp's comment 


  > The other Peter's suggestion:

    Time ::= CHOICE {
        utcTime          UTCTime,
        generalizedTime  GeneralizedTime,
	epochSeconds     INTEGER}

  > is fine with me, but I'm not sure existing applications would deal with 
  > an unrecognized CHOICE value as gracefully as they would with an 
  > unrecognized attribute.  To avoid problems, the S/MIME -msg spec would 
  > have to state that epochSeconds MUST NOT be used by sending applications.

  > Dave

> 
> >There is no need at all to introduce these options, they serve
> >nothing at all, since the other attribute exists.
> 
> We have already had this debate. 

When did we debate to introduce UTCtime and generalizedtime into the new
attribute? I must have missed that? As far as I remember the only
debate was whether we need at all a specifiction with seconds.

You answered to Peter Gutman's comment ...
  >The proposal isn't so much limiting as... bizarre.  The ASN.1 time formats
  >have been around forever. everything supports them, and this proposal is for a
  >format that isn't even as "flexible" as the not-very-flexible UTCTime.  What
  >real problem is this addressing?  Why a time_t?  Why not a 64-bit time to keep
  >the Java guys happy?  Or the Windows nanoseconds-since-1600 time?  Or the
  >Macintosh seconds-since 1904?  You could make it a choice, so no-one would
  >feel left out, with at least one of the choices being an identified-by-OID
  >value so everyone could add their own favourite oddball format...

with : 
  Any of these is possible, but a choice defeats the whole point, which is to 
  avoid complex conversion.

And now you add a choice, and, furthermore, values that you qualify
as more difficult to handle.

>                                   At least two people see potential value 
'A potential value'? I have not seen anything concrete except 

   There are no existing applications in this space, and 
   thus no backwards compatibilty issues.  But CMS  and a newly defined 
   attribute can be applied to future applications without having any 
   impact on existing apps.


> in the BinaryTime.  Clearly there is not a ground swell of support.  This 
> is the reason that the "Status of this Memo" section indicates that this 
> will become an Experimental RFC.  In this way, we can find out if there is 
> any value from implementations.  If no implementations emerge, then we can 
> let it drop.  On the other hand, if implementors find it useful, then a 
> standards-track RFC can follow later.


First of all, the IESG has something to say here. So please don't say 
'it will become'.  

Becoming experimental requires that the IESG determines whether the protocol
is not in conflict with some existing text. At least, with the new text,
this seems clearly the case to me, i.e., in conflict with almost everything
that can be told about the existing attribute, and any of the supposed
benefits seem wrong to me. 

At least, I think the IESG should add some appropriate wording to
explain whether of not the text is in conflict with exsiting standardisation
work. 

> >But I'll address the statements of the text (a second time).
> >
> >1.1  BinaryTime
> >
> >    Many operating systems represent date and time as an integer.  This
> >    document specifies an ASN.1 type for representing a date and time in
> >    a manner that is compatible with these operating systems.  This
> >    approach has several advantages over the UTCTime and GeneralizedTime
> >    types.
> >
> >Not many systems represent data and time in BER as far as I remember.
> 
> I do not understand this comment.  The quoted text says that operating 
> systems use an integer, not a character string.  BER (or other encoding) is 
> going to be applied in either case.  This is essential to resolve endian 
> issues at a minimum.

An integer encoded in BER is AFAIK not the way to encode seconds on
on any known system. (I have even forgotten x-endian stuff.). 

> >    First, a BinaryTime value is smaller than either a UTCTime or a
> >    GeneralizedTime value.
> >
> >True, but very weak conpared to the size of the document, ...
> >
> >    Second, in many operating systems, the value can be used without
> >    conversion.  The operating systems that do require conversion can do
> >    so with straightforward computation.
> >
> >You need at least some conversion from a BER encoded variable length
> >integer to some value. You don't any indication why you want to compare
> >the date with some local integer value?
> 
> Many values can use used directly.  If the endian ordering is different on 
> a particular system, then straightforward manipulation is needed.  If the 
> epoch is different, addition or subtraction is needed to compensate.  If 
> the granularity is something other than seconds, then multiplication or 
> division is needed to compensate.  To me, these are "straightforward 
> computation."

To summarize: 

   - variable length encoding
   - endian
   - substraction or addition,
   - multiplications on IBM 3x0 series.
   
This seems to me at least as straightforward as a few multiplications fo 
a character string based, no variable length, no endian issue,
an addition/substraction for UTCTime. ... 

> I can state all of this if you like:
> 
>     Second, in many operating systems, the value can be used without
>     conversion.  The operating systems that do require conversion can do
>     so with straightforward computation.  If the endian ordering is different
>     than the ASN.1 representation of an INTEGER, then straightforward
>     manipulation is needed.  If the epoch is different than the one chosen
>     for BinaryTime, addition or subtraction is needed to compensate.  If the
>     granularity is something other than seconds, then multiplication or
>     division is needed to compensate.  Also, padding may be needed
>     convert the variable length ASN.1 encoding of INTEGER to a fixed
>     length value used in the operating system.

Tell me any operating system where the value can be used without any
small treatment. See also the comments about internal formats from P.G.
concerning the word 'many'. 
 
> 
> Comparison of a date/time value in a protocol to the current time from the 
> operating system seems very obvious to me.

And that comparison should lead to what result? The signature is too old,
not yet valid? What application are you thinking about? secure NTP?

 
> >As far as I remember, date comparisions have to be made in case
> >if you want to check certificates. In this case, the logic to
> >convert a local time value to an Generalizedtime already exists
> >on the machine. Of course, if you assume that no certs are used
> >at all, ... then you might still save more octets by reducing
> >the SignerInfo structure.
> 
> The certificates and crls are optional in SignerInfo.  The SignedData sid 
> field can be used to identify a public key that is not embedded in a 
> certificate, such as a trust anchor.

Indeed, this case is a one where Signeddata have GeneralizedTime (unless
I have overseen something). Well, the type is also proposed for
Authenticated-data, and somewhere in the the key exchange info you
have date in generalizedTime, but this is probaly never used at all here.
 
> >    Third, date comparison is very easy with BinaryTime.  Integer
> >    comparison is easy, even when multi-precision integers are involved.
> >    Date comparison with UTCTime or GeneralizedTime can be complex when
> >    the two values to be compared are provided in different time zones.
> >
> >There are no time zones involved in the signingTime attribute.
> >One change in RFC 3369 vs 2630 to uppercase the MUST.
> 
> Signing-time is not the only possible use of BinaryTime.  It is the one 
> specified in the document.  However, if the ASN.1 type is useful, then it 
> will start appearing in other places.  This would be an indication that the 
> Experimental RFC is useful.

You don't address what I have said. You indicate that time zone
comparisons are difficult, but they do not even occur within the
existing signingTime attribute. 

 
> >  String comparison is as easy as integer comparison.
> >
> >In 25 years, time definitions of 32 bit machines may become difficult
> >to compare with an integer. Nothing guarantees you that the local
> >time definitions with simply shift or else.
> 
> I think this is addressed by my proposed text above.

Yes, which makes the logic as "complex" as for the existing character
encodings IMO. 

> 
> >The textual representation of generalizedtime in zulu holmds at least
> >a few years more, and beyond 9999 there is already an RFC :-)
> 
> The integer representation will not have trouble in 10000 ;-)
> 
> >    This is a rare instance where both memory and processor cycles are
> >    saved.
> >
> >Processor cycles are not saved, since soon, i.e. in about 25 years,
> >you have to check whether you are beyond epoch, etc. So may need
> >at least some (almso rather simple) logic as with the adjustments
> >of UTCTime.
> 
> I do not see this one.  Some operating systems already use int64 to 
> represent time.

Paddings, endians conversion, etc, all need time. 

> >Or, to resume: the only arguments that I can see is to save a few octets.
> >If you want to do this, code in PER for example.
> 
> PER of the character string will not reduce it to 4 or 5 octets.

I was thinking of PER for the whole signedData, or some completely
different format removing all unnecessary tags, ecapsulations etc. 


> >5  Security Considerations
> >
> >    This specification does not introduce any new security considerations
> >    beyond those already discussed in [CMS].
> >
> >CMS has no security considerations concerning the signingTime attribute.
> >Anyway, in the following you are doing quite the contrary, i.e., you
> >add new considerations.
> 
> Okay.  This is not the point I wanted to make, but I can see how you can 
> interpret it that way.  I'll delete the paragraph.
> 
> >    Use of the updated signing-time attribute does not necessarily
> >    provide confidence in the time that the signature value was produced.
> >    Therefore, acceptance of a purported signing time is a matter of a
> >    recipient's discretion.  RFC 3161 [TSP] specifies a protocol for
> >    obtaining time stamps from a trusted entity.
> >
> >    The original signing-time attribute defined in [CMS] has the same
> >    semantics as the updated signing-time attribute specified in this
> >    document.  If both of these attributes are present, they SHOULD
> >
> >SHOULD assumes that unless good reasons the data should be identical,
> >or, that a client should perform a comparison? If you don't assume
> >any work to be done by the client, you should mention that nothing
> >can be said about the two values.
> >
> >    provide the same date and time.
> >
> >At least, if both are present, the only vaguely valid argument about
> >savings of space vanished, and cpu cycles are also necessary to skip
> >or parse.
> >
> >RFC 3369 has a lot of text saying that ther must only be one occurence
> >of the signingTime attribuet and only one value.
> >
> >With this new specification you now add a second occurence. Does this
> >mean that you consider the existing 3369 spec is too strong?
> 
> No.  I was trying to accommodate a situation where the signature would be 
> checked by two recipients, one that prefers signing-time and one that 
> prefers signing-time2.  I cannot see a better way to handle this situation.

At least, as Peter Gutmann says: you have lost all the space gain as the other Peter
told, implementations would prbably need to add the two attributes.  

Is there a particular reason for the SHOULD in the following? 

   The original signing-time attribute defined in [CMS] has the same
   semantics as the updated signing-time attribute specified in this
   document.  If both of these attributes are present, they SHOULD
   provide the same date and time.

Peter
 



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From p_donaldsonug@geca.es  Thu Sep 16 11:27:49 2004
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From copolymerp9@lowrates4you.net  Thu Sep 16 14:23:10 2004
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S8Cv3MVdC7OtG6qGm7wlisu5HKu8LLSt676yjM3HfL0cQMlfjL2jvMi5MLXL28XOnMyRq7NrfMQB
u8+nDMe1urAsqr5BKqdqWqY02tBAutApGtGWSrs2+tAvetHWrNEbzdEd7dEfDdIhLdIjTdIlbdIn
jdIprdIrzdIt7dIvDdMxLdMzvdIJAAA7

----4078632658995638028--



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The updated S/MIME MSG spec was just published.  I do not see the WG 
opening it up for this ...

Russ


>Right, that's why we have david Kemp's comment
>
>
>   > The other Peter's suggestion:
>
>     Time ::= CHOICE {
>         utcTime          UTCTime,
>         generalizedTime  GeneralizedTime,
>         epochSeconds     INTEGER}
>
>   > is fine with me, but I'm not sure existing applications would deal with
>   > an unrecognized CHOICE value as gracefully as they would with an
>   > unrecognized attribute.  To avoid problems, the S/MIME -msg spec would
>   > have to state that epochSeconds MUST NOT be used by sending applications.



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Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:24:17 -0400
To: Peter Sylvester <Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr>
From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
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Peter:

> > >There is no need at all to introduce these options, they serve
> > >nothing at all, since the other attribute exists.
> >
> > We have already had this debate.
>
>When did we debate to introduce UTCtime and generalizedtime into the new
>attribute? I must have missed that? As far as I remember the only
>debate was whether we need at all a specifiction with seconds.

I do not recall exactly, but it was prior to the publication for RFC 2630, 
so it was at least five years ago.

Russ



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Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:29:29 -0400
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From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
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Peter:

> > >1.1  BinaryTime
> > >
> > >    Many operating systems represent date and time as an integer.  This
> > >    document specifies an ASN.1 type for representing a date and time in
> > >    a manner that is compatible with these operating systems.  This
> > >    approach has several advantages over the UTCTime and GeneralizedTime
> > >    types.
> > >
> > >Not many systems represent data and time in BER as far as I remember.
> >
> > I do not understand this comment.  The quoted text says that operating
> > systems use an integer, not a character string.  BER (or other 
> encoding) is
> > going to be applied in either case.  This is essential to resolve endian
> > issues at a minimum.
>
>An integer encoded in BER is AFAIK not the way to encode seconds on
>on any known system. (I have even forgotten x-endian stuff.).

I am very confused here.  Many operating systems use an int32 or an int64 
for time values.  These are easy to DER encode as an ASN.1 INTEGER.

Russ



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Peter:

> > >    First, a BinaryTime value is smaller than either a UTCTime or a
> > >    GeneralizedTime value.
> > >
> > >True, but very weak conpared to the size of the document, ...
> > >
> > >    Second, in many operating systems, the value can be used without
> > >    conversion.  The operating systems that do require conversion can do
> > >    so with straightforward computation.
> > >
> > >You need at least some conversion from a BER encoded variable length
> > >integer to some value. You don't any indication why you want to compare
> > >the date with some local integer value?
> >
> > Many values can use used directly.  If the endian ordering is different on
> > a particular system, then straightforward manipulation is needed.  If the
> > epoch is different, addition or subtraction is needed to compensate.  If
> > the granularity is something other than seconds, then multiplication or
> > division is needed to compensate.  To me, these are "straightforward
> > computation."
>
>To summarize:
>
>    - variable length encoding
>    - endian
>    - substraction or addition,
>    - multiplications on IBM 3x0 series.
>
>This seems to me at least as straightforward as a few multiplications fo
>a character string based, no variable length, no endian issue,
>an addition/substraction for UTCTime. ...

On this aspect, I thing we must agree to disagree.  One man's 
straightforward is obviously not the same as another man's straightforward.

Russ



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Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:20:09 -0400
To: Peter Sylvester <Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr>
From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
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Peter:

Again, you have focused on the signing -time attribute, not other possible 
uses for BnaryTime.

Russ


> > >    Third, date comparison is very easy with BinaryTime.  Integer
> > >    comparison is easy, even when multi-precision integers are involved.
> > >    Date comparison with UTCTime or GeneralizedTime can be complex when
> > >    the two values to be compared are provided in different time zones.
> > >
> > >There are no time zones involved in the signingTime attribute.
> > >One change in RFC 3369 vs 2630 to uppercase the MUST.
> >
> > Signing-time is not the only possible use of BinaryTime.  It is the one
> > specified in the document.  However, if the ASN.1 type is useful, then it
> > will start appearing in other places.  This would be an indication that 
> the
> > Experimental RFC is useful.
>
>You don't address what I have said. You indicate that time zone
>comparisons are difficult, but they do not even occur within the
>existing signingTime attribute.



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From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
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Peter:

You are asking about the signing-time signed attribute.

My comments were about the use of BinaryTime in general.

Russ

At 09:13 AM 9/15/2004, Peter Sylvester wrote:
> > Comparison of a date/time value in a protocol to the current time from the
> > operating system seems very obvious to me.
>
>And that comparison should lead to what result? The signature is too old,
>not yet valid? What application are you thinking about? secure NTP?



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Peter:

Would you prefer MUST?

Russ


>Is there a particular reason for the SHOULD in the following?
>
>    The original signing-time attribute defined in [CMS] has the same
>    semantics as the updated signing-time attribute specified in this
>    document.  If both of these attributes are present, they SHOULD
>    provide the same date and time.



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> Peter:
> 
> You are asking about the signing-time signed attribute.
> 
> My comments were about the use of BinaryTime in general.

You are not answering my questions. may I conclude that you have no
application at all at hand? if so, what is the experiment? 

The proposed text concerns a a signing-time attribute. 
 
> 
> Russ
> 
> At 09:13 AM 9/15/2004, Peter Sylvester wrote:
> > > Comparison of a date/time value in a protocol to the current time from the
> > > operating system seems very obvious to me.
> >
> >And that comparison should lead to what result? The signature is too old,
> >not yet valid? What application are you thinking about? secure NTP?




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I probably or eventually don't want you to stop you think that, i.e., 
you may or may not continue to believe I *must* agree or disagree 
to agree or disagree, or else.


> On this aspect, I thing we must agree to disagree.  One man's 
> straightforward is obviously not the same as another man's straightforward.
> 
> Russ
> 
> 



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> 
> > > >1.1  BinaryTime
> > > >
> > > >    Many operating systems represent date and time as an integer.  This
> > > >    document specifies an ASN.1 type for representing a date and time in
> > > >    a manner that is compatible with these operating systems.  This
> > > >    approach has several advantages over the UTCTime and GeneralizedTime
> > > >    types.
> > > >
> > > >Not many systems represent data and time in BER as far as I remember.
> > >
> > > I do not understand this comment.  The quoted text says that operating
> > > systems use an integer, not a character string.  BER (or other 
> > encoding) is
> > > going to be applied in either case.  This is essential to resolve endian
> > > issues at a minimum.
> >
> >An integer encoded in BER is AFAIK not the way to encode seconds on
> >on any known system. (I have even forgotten x-endian stuff.).
> 
> I am very confused here.  Many operating systems use an int32 or an int64 
> for time values.  These are easy to DER encode as an ASN.1 INTEGER.
> 

There is a difference between 'easy to do' and 'nothing to do'. 

As P.G. pointed out (forgetting at least one other machine type) even if
time values are represented as integers, the granularity is not the same
everywhere.



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> Peter:
> 
> Would you prefer MUST?
> 
> Russ
> 

I don't think that we are debating on the best way to protect
from the results of the Chernobyl or Harrisburg events, in our
case the power plant has not even been constructed. 

I think it is up to *you* to explain why there is a SHOULD, a MUST
or whatever addressing the situation of two semantically equivalent
occurences of a time value, whilst in the definition of
signingTime there are several MUSTs ensuring only one.

 




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Without having looked into whatever archive, by reading the following
two comments, I tend to interprete them as:

  Five years ago there was a debate about whether or not to add a binary time
  format in a signingTime attribute. This had not been adopted, and
  since then, no proposition or urgent need had occured. 

  Since then there has been a revison of the underlying text, i.e., PKCS9,
  so far, I haven' seen any proposals in this direction either
  (I don't have my eyes everywhere, though). 

  Where is the experiment?

> 
> Peter:
> 
> > > >There is no need at all to introduce these options, they serve
> > > >nothing at all, since the other attribute exists.
> > >
> > > We have already had this debate.
> >
> >When did we debate to introduce UTCtime and generalizedtime into the new
> >attribute? I must have missed that? As far as I remember the only
> >debate was whether we need at all a specifiction with seconds.
> 
> I do not recall exactly, but it was prior to the publication for RFC 2630, 
> so it was at least five years ago.
> 
> Russ
> 
> 
> The updated S/MIME MSG spec was just published.  I do not see the WG 
> opening it up for this ...
> 
> Russ
> 
> 
> >Right, that's why we have david Kemp's comment
> >
> >
> >   > The other Peter's suggestion:
> >
> >     Time ::= CHOICE {
> >         utcTime          UTCTime,
> >         generalizedTime  GeneralizedTime,
> >         epochSeconds     INTEGER}
> >
> >   > is fine with me, but I'm not sure existing applications would deal with
> >   > an unrecognized CHOICE value as gracefully as they would with an
> >   > unrecognized attribute.  To avoid problems, the S/MIME -msg spec would
> >   > have to state that epochSeconds MUST NOT be used by sending applications.
> 
> 
> 
> 




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Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 12:03:05 -0400
To: Peter Sylvester <Peter.Sylvester@edelweb.fr>
From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
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I propose:

Second, in some operating systems, the value can be used with little or no 
conversion.  Conversion, when it is needed, requires only straightforward 
computation.  If the endian ordering is different than the ASN.1 
representation of an INTEGER, then straightforward manipulation is needed 
to obtain an equivalent integer value.  If the epoch is different than the 
one chosen for BinaryTime, addition or subtraction is needed to 
compensate.  If the granularity is something other than seconds, then 
multiplication or division is needed to compensate.  Also, padding may be 
needed convert the variable length ASN.1 encoding of INTEGER to a fixed 
length value used in the operating system.

Russ

At 07:20 AM 9/17/2004, Peter Sylvester wrote:
> >
> > > > >1.1  BinaryTime
> > > > >
> > > > >    Many operating systems represent date and time as an 
> integer.  This
> > > > >    document specifies an ASN.1 type for representing a date and 
> time in
> > > > >    a manner that is compatible with these operating systems.  This
> > > > >    approach has several advantages over the UTCTime and 
> GeneralizedTime
> > > > >    types.
> > > > >
> > > > >Not many systems represent data and time in BER as far as I remember.
> > > >
> > > > I do not understand this comment.  The quoted text says that operating
> > > > systems use an integer, not a character string.  BER (or other
> > > encoding) is
> > > > going to be applied in either case.  This is essential to resolve 
> endian
> > > > issues at a minimum.
> > >
> > >An integer encoded in BER is AFAIK not the way to encode seconds on
> > >on any known system. (I have even forgotten x-endian stuff.).
> >
> > I am very confused here.  Many operating systems use an int32 or an int64
> > for time values.  These are easy to DER encode as an ASN.1 INTEGER.
> >
>
>There is a difference between 'easy to do' and 'nothing to do'.
>
>As P.G. pointed out (forgetting at least one other machine type) even if
>time values are represented as integers, the granularity is not the same
>everywhere.



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From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
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Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> writes:

>The application itself is not ready for release to the IETF, and it may never
>be released to the IETF.  However, please take a look at draft-housley-cms-
>fw-wrap.  This has many properties in common with the application that is not
>yet ready for release.  Basically, a content type is defined, and the use of
>CMS to protect that content type is specified.  S/MIME is not used, only CMS.

If it's meant for use in fw-wrap, couldn't it just be specified as an extra
attribute in there, along with the other attributes that fw-wrap introduces?

Peter.



From nobody@web4.alojamentos7.com  Fri Sep 17 13:43:52 2004
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Dear Friend,

      Greetings to you,With warm heart I offer my friendship, and greetings, and I hope this mail meets you in good time. However strange or surprising this contact might seem to you as we have not met personally or had any dealings in the past, I humbly ask that you take due consideration of its importance and the immense benefit it will be to you.

     After careful consideration with my children, we resolved to contact you for your most needed assistance on this mutually beneficial and riskfree transaction which i hope you will give your urgent attention. I duly apologize for infringing on your privacy, if this contact is not acceptable to you, as I make this proposal to you as a person of integrity. First and foremost I wish to introduce myself properly to you. 

   I  am Mr.Abu M.Sesay I am moved to write you this letter, this was inconfidence considration,for our present circumstances and situation, i escaped with my wife and children out of Sierrial-Leone to The Nedelands through the aid of the United Nations Evacuation Team where we are now presently residing on temporary political asylum.

     However, due to this situation I decided to change most of my Billions of  Dollars deposited in Swiss Bank and other countries into other forms of money coded for safe purpose because the new head of state Ahmed Tijjan Kabba made arrangement with the Swiss Goverment and other European countries to freeze all my treasures deposited in some european countries, hence i and my wife along with my children,decided laying low in this our tempoery political asylum camp here in Grou Jirnssum in the Nedelands to study the situation till when things gets better, since president Tijjan Kabba taking over goverment again in Sierria Leone. One of my chateaux in Southern France was confiscated by the French Goverment, and as such we had to change  our identity so that our investment will not be trace and confiscated.

  I  have deposited the sum of Thirty Million,Five Hundred Thousand United States Dollars{US$30,500,000} with a security company for safekeeping.


  The funds are security coded to prevent them from knowing the actual content .  What I want you to do now is to indicate your inetrest that you will assist me and my immediate family by receiving the money on our behalf.

     The  Account required for this project can be personal, company or an offshore account that you have  total control over, your area of specialisation will not be a hinderance to the successful execution of this transaction.
 
 Ackowledge this message, so that I can introduce you to my family as our foreign trusted partner who shall take charge of our investment abroad where we now plan to settle.

    I want you to assist us in investing this money,but I will not want  our identity revealed. I will also want to buy properties and stocks in multy- national companies and to engage in other safe and non speculative investments.

   We have been through a lot of health and spiritual turmoil, hence will need  your understanding and assistance. 
  
 May I at this junction emphasize the  high level of confidentiality which this business demands and hope you will not betral the trust and confidence which we repose in you.I  shall put you in the picture of this buiness, i.e tell you where the funds are currently being maintained and also discuss other modalities including remuneration for your services.

   I   shall also inform you with the next line of action as soon as i receive your response.Is this preposition is attainable? If it is, Please kindly funish me immediately by E-mail with your direct telephone number and fax number to enhance the confidentiality which this business demands. 

  Best Regards,
Mr.Abu M.Sesay

___________________________________________________________________________
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Peter:

That was what draft -00 did.  I changed it based on feed back from Peter^2.

Russ

At 12:42 PM 9/17/2004, Peter Gutmann wrote:

>Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> writes:
>
> >The application itself is not ready for release to the IETF, and it may 
> never
> >be released to the IETF.  However, please take a look at draft-housley-cms-
> >fw-wrap.  This has many properties in common with the application that 
> is not
> >yet ready for release.  Basically, a content type is defined, and the use of
> >CMS to protect that content type is specified.  S/MIME is not used, only 
> CMS.
>
>If it's meant for use in fw-wrap, couldn't it just be specified as an extra
>attribute in there, along with the other attributes that fw-wrap introduces?
>
>Peter.



From jacktillery@largestnews.com  Fri Sep 17 15:41:16 2004
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Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:40:34 -0400
To: Peter Sylvester <Peter.Sylvester@edelweb.fr>
From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
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I propose:

The original signing-time attribute defined in [CMS] has the same semantics 
as the updated signing-time attribute specified in this 
document.  Therefore, only one of these attributes SHOULD be present in the 
signedAttrs of a SignerInfo object or in the authAttrs of an 
AuthenticatedData object.  However, if both of these attributes are 
present, they MUST provide the same date and time.


Russ

At 07:15 AM 9/17/2004, Peter Sylvester wrote:
> > Peter:
> >
> > Would you prefer MUST?
> >
> > Russ
> >
>
>I don't think that we are debating on the best way to protect
>from the results of the Chernobyl or Harrisburg events, in our
>case the power plant has not even been constructed.
>
>I think it is up to *you* to explain why there is a SHOULD, a MUST
>or whatever addressing the situation of two semantically equivalent
>occurences of a time value, whilst in the definition of
>signingTime there are several MUSTs ensuring only one.
>
>



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To: Peter Sylvester <Peter.Sylvester@edelweb.fr>
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Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
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Yes, I have an application.  It is using BinaryTime in the content, and the 
desire is to use the same date/time format throughout the application.

The application itself is not ready for release to the IETF, and it may 
never be released to the IETF.  However, please take a look at 
draft-housley-cms-fw-wrap.  This has many properties in common with the 
application that is not yet ready for release.  Basically, a content type 
is defined, and the use of CMS to protect that content type is 
specified.  S/MIME is not used, only CMS.

Russ


At 07:15 AM 9/17/2004, Peter Sylvester wrote:

> > Peter:
> >
> > You are asking about the signing-time signed attribute.
> >
> > My comments were about the use of BinaryTime in general.
>
>You are not answering my questions. may I conclude that you have no
>application at all at hand? if so, what is the experiment?
>
>The proposed text concerns a a signing-time attribute.
>
> >
> > Russ
> >
> > At 09:13 AM 9/15/2004, Peter Sylvester wrote:
> > > > Comparison of a date/time value in a protocol to the current time 
> from the
> > > > operating system seems very obvious to me.
> > >
> > >And that comparison should lead to what result? The signature is too old,
> > >not yet valid? What application are you thinking about? secure NTP?



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Peter:

No.  That is not what I meant to say.  I was trying to answer your query 
about the rule regarding 2050 and signing-time.

Five years ago, there was a debate about the signing-time attribute.  In 
PKCS#9, it only supports UTCTime.  There was a debate about using the same 
OID with the construct that includes a GeneralizedTime alternative.  At 
that time, the decision was to align with RFC 2459.  X.509 was also being 
updated at roughly the same time.

Your question about the experiment is answered in another message.

Russ


At 07:18 AM 9/17/2004, Peter Sylvester wrote:
>Without having looked into whatever archive, by reading the following
>two comments, I tend to interprete them as:
>
>   Five years ago there was a debate about whether or not to add a binary time
>   format in a signingTime attribute. This had not been adopted, and
>   since then, no proposition or urgent need had occured.
>
>   Since then there has been a revison of the underlying text, i.e., PKCS9,
>   so far, I haven' seen any proposals in this direction either
>   (I don't have my eyes everywhere, though).
>
>   Where is the experiment?
>
> >
> > Peter:
> >
> > > > >There is no need at all to introduce these options, they serve
> > > > >nothing at all, since the other attribute exists.
> > > >
> > > > We have already had this debate.
> > >
> > >When did we debate to introduce UTCtime and generalizedtime into the new
> > >attribute? I must have missed that? As far as I remember the only
> > >debate was whether we need at all a specifiction with seconds.
> >
> > I do not recall exactly, but it was prior to the publication for RFC 2630,
> > so it was at least five years ago.
> >
> > Russ
> >
> >
> > The updated S/MIME MSG spec was just published.  I do not see the WG
> > opening it up for this ...
> >
> > Russ
> >
> >
> > >Right, that's why we have david Kemp's comment
> > >
> > >
> > >   > The other Peter's suggestion:
> > >
> > >     Time ::= CHOICE {
> > >         utcTime          UTCTime,
> > >         generalizedTime  GeneralizedTime,
> > >         epochSeconds     INTEGER}
> > >
> > >   > is fine with me, but I'm not sure existing applications would 
> deal with
> > >   > an unrecognized CHOICE value as gracefully as they would with an
> > >   > unrecognized attribute.  To avoid problems, the S/MIME -msg spec 
> would
> > >   > have to state that epochSeconds MUST NOT be used by sending 
> applications.
> >
> >
> >
> >



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From xgzvckhcckrl@goldmail.ru  Sat Sep 18 19:14:09 2004
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
Riley Keller,<p>

New York Log and Lumber (OTC:NYIL)
(now called Green Energy Resources, Inc.)<P>

We rec-ommended it 30 days ago at .17 and it went to .50<P>

Did you like SQCN??? FDEI???  You will L0VE NYIL on Monday.<P> 

Green Energy Resources, Inc. (OTC:NYIL)
Current Price: $0.35
Shares Outstanding: 20 MILLI0N
Market Capitalization: $6 MILLI0N<P><P>


News Headline: Thursday, September 16, 2004<P>  

Green  Energy  Resources  Launches  Strategic  Initiative  with Coal
Industry  to   Reduce   Air   Polluting   Emissions,  Develop  Green
Certificate Market and Revitalize US Coal Production. (Source: Green
Energy Resources)<P><P>


About The Company:<P>

New York Log  and  Lumber  now  called  Green Energy Resources, Inc.
(OTC:NYIL) is an emerging "green energy" powerhouse in  the  making,
with rapidly expanding operations n in the delivery and distribution
of  wood  fiber  biomass  fuel  for  energy generation facilities in
Europe and North America.  The Company has already posted profitable
operations, and with contracts already  in  place,  is set to see an
in-crease in revenues over the  next  three  years! With  a  leading
position   in   the  wood  fiber  biomass  energy  supply  industry,
established export operations  to  European clients, and development
of a US distribution network,  NYIL  is  poised  to  see  tremendous
growth and emerge as a major "green energy" company.<P>

As oil and natural gas prices reach  all-time  highs,  and  concerns
over environmental pollution and greenhouse climate change reach new
audiences,  alternative  energy  production  has  become  one of the
hottest topics on the  Street.   While well-established green energy
technologies  including  solar  and  wind  have   yet   to   produce
significant energy gains, and highly touted new technologies such as
hydrogen  fuel  cells are still years away from practical use, there
is one often overlooked, highly  profitable, and simple green energy
technology which is already widely used.<P>

This alternative energy technology is  biomass-  the  conversion  of
organic  materials  into  energy,  and  one  of  the oldest and most
effective sources  of  energy  in  human  history.   Biomass fuel is
abundant, secure, economical, and sustainable, and can  be  used  to
produce  clean  energy  which  does  not  contribute to pollution or
greenhouse gasses, can be  used  to  reduce landfill dependence, and
provide an alternative to the open burning of forest wastes.<P>

NYIL is one of the first US companies to target this tremendous  and
rapidly  growing  0pportunity for clean, renewable energy production
through biomass.  NYIL is  a  leading  US provider of "green energy"
wood fiber biomass fuel for energy generation.  The Company  is  the
first  US  company  to  export  biomass  fuel  to lucrative European
markets, and  is  working  to  capitalize  on  recent  energy policy
changes in the US with development of a domestic delivery network to
accommodate anticipated near-term demand.<P>

With export sales of more than $3 MILLI0N for FY 2004, we anticipate
dramatic revenue growth for NYIL this year as  the  Company  expands
its international operations with major new contract wins and begins
to  put the infrastructure in place for a first-of-its-kind domestic
biomass supply network.   NYIL  is  the  only  American company that
meets  the  stringent  UTCS  environmental   standards,   is   Kyoto
compliant,  and  is  working  to  reduce  destruction  of forests by
utilizing waste wood.<P><P>


A Few Reasons to Consider Owning NYIL:<P>

NYIL provides wood  fiber  biomass  fuel  required for generation of
clean, environmentally friendly energy,  using  waste  and  recycled
materials  for  export  to European energy plants, and is working to
develop a  domestic  delivery  infrastructure  that  will supply the
growing US market demand for "green energy".  The demand  for  green
energy  is  rapidly  expanding in the European Union, with projected
consumption of 110 MILLI0N tons of  wood fuel annually.  At the same
time, the US production of waste wood is at an all time high.   NYIL
provides a highly profitable, environmentally sound solution to both
of these problems with its wood fuel export business.<P>

Renewable  energy  is a $17 BILLI0N annual industry that is expected
to reach $35 billion by  2003.   Biomass, primarily from wood chips,
is expected to account for about 20% of  this  generation  capacity.
Increasingly,   national   and  state  governments  are  turning  to
renewable energy as  a  solution  for  increasing  pollution and the
all-time high costs of fossil fuels,  with  a  wide  range  of  fuel
credits,  tax  incentives, and green pricing programs implemented to
encourage renewable energy development.   NYIL has positioned itself
as a clear leader in this renewable energy generation segment.<P>

Recent legal filings and legislative rulings  will  provide  a  huge
impetus  towards  the adoption of wood fiber co-generation and other
clean energy technologies in the United States.  In a recent federal
lawsuit filed June 21, California,  New  York, and seen other states
filed suit  against  more  than  170  operators  of  high  polluting
coal-fired  power plants, seeking a federal order to cap and cut CO2
emissions from US electricity suppliers.  Recently, the EPA released
its new "Clean  Air"  standards  which  mandate  a  70% reduction in
emissions from coal-fired plants- representing 51%  of  US  electric
generation capacity., and creating a tremendous 0pportunity for NYIL
to  benefit  from  the  transition to cleaner electric production as
coal-plants  convert  to   co-generation.    More  than  20  states,
including California, New Jersey, Texas, Illinois, and New York have
or  are  considering  implementing  renewable  portfolio   standards
requiring   utilities  to  dramatically  in-crease their  generation
capacity from renewable  sources.   These government initiatives and
mandates will be the driving  force  behind  the  development  of  a
tremendous  North  American market demand for the wood fuel delivery
capacity which NYIL is already developing.<P>

NYIL  continues  to  improve  its  near-term  revenue  and  earnings
outlook,  and  is  making  significant  progress  towards tremendous
growth.  With  sales  of  more  than  $3.0  MILLI0N  and  profitable
operations  for  FY  2003,  Green  Energy  Resources  is  poised  to
substantially  improve  its  financial  position for 2004 and beyond
with dramatic expansion  of  its  international  operations with the
establishment of new  offices  in  the  United  Kingdom  and  Spain,
development  of  a  US distribution network, and the addition of new
procurement and export contracts.   Based  on existing contracts for
wood fiber fuel export and the sale of the contract on  the  Hyundai
Explorer,  NYIL  is  well  positioned  to  exceed  our  2004 revenue
projections. With  build  out  of  a  US  distribution  network, and
rapidly developing markets for  wood  fiber  fuel  domestically  and
abroad,  NYIL is well situated to see continued growth over the next
3-4 years.<P><P>


DIS-CLAIMER: Information within this ema-il contains F0RWARD looking
statements within the meaning of  Section  27A of the Securities Act
of 1933 and Section 21B of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934.  Any
statements  that  express  or  involve  discussions  with respect to
predictions, expectations, beliefs,  plans, projections, objectives,
goals,  assumptions  or  future  events  or  performance   are   not
statements of historical fact and may be F0RWARD looking statements.
F0RWARD  looking statements are based on expectations, estimates and
projections at the  time  the  statements  are  made  that involve a
number of risks and uncertainties which could cause  actual  results
or  events  to  differ  materially from those presently anticipated.
F0RWARD looking statements in this  action may be identified through
the use  of  words  such  as  projects  ,  foresee,  expects,  will,
anticipates,  estimates, believes, understands or that by statements
indicating certain actions may, could,  or might occur. As with many
microcap stocks, today's company has additional risk  factors  worth
noting.  Those  factors can include an accumulated deficit since its
inception, a negative net  worth,  reliance  on loans from officers,
directors and a majority shareholder to pay expenses,  nominal  cash
and  the  need  to  raise  capital.The  company  has a going concern
opinion from its auditor. The creators of the letter above are not a
registered broker/dealer and may not sell, 0FFER to sell or 0FFER to
b.uy  any  security.   This   profile   is  not  a  solicitation  or
REC0MMENDATION to b.uy, sell securities. An 0FFER to  b.uy  or  sell
can  be  made  only  with accompanying disclosure documents from the
company offering or selling  securities  and  only in the states and
provinces for which they are approved. The material in this  release
is  intended  to  be strictly informational and based on assumptions
rather than fact. The companies  that  are discussed in this release
have not approved the statements made in this release  nor  approved
the  timing of this release.  All statements and expressions are the
sole opinion of  the  creators  and  are  subject  to change without
notice. Information in this release is derived  from  a  variety  of
sources  including that company's publicly disseminated information,
third parties and the  writers  research and optimistic speculation.
The accuracy or completeness of the information is not warranted and
is only as reliable as the sources from which it was  obtained.  All
involved  in  the  creation and distribution of this profile/release
disclaims any and all liability  as  to the completeness or accuracy
of the information contained and any omissions of material  fact  in
this   release.  The  release  may  contain  technical  and  factual
inaccuracies or  typographical  errors.  It  is strongly recommended
that any purchase or sale decision be  discussed  with  a  financial
adviser, or a broker-dealer, or a member of any financial regulatory
bodies.  Investment in the securities of the companies' discussed in
this release is  highly  speculative  and  carries  a high degree of
risk. All persons involved in the creation and distribution  of  the
information  in  this  letter  is  not  liable  for  any  investment
decisions  by  its  readers  or subscribers. Investors are cautioned
that they may lose all or a portion of their investment if they make
a purchase in this security  mentioned.  This profile is not without
bias,  and  is  a  paid  release.  Writers  and  mailers  have  been
compensated for the dissemination of company information  on  behalf
of  one  or more of the companies mentioned in this release. Parties
involved in the creation and  distribution of this profile have been
compensated 20,000 dollars by a third party (third  party),  who  is
non-affiliated,  for  services  provided  including dissemination of
company information in this  release.  PR  and other individuals and
other creators and mailers of this  letter  will  sell  all  of  its
original  shares  during  the  distribution of this profile. Parties
involved may immediately  sell  some  or  any  shares  in a profiled
company held by profile creators and may have previously sold shares
in a profiled company held by PR  Individuals  involved.  Our  0ptin
mailing  services  for a company may cause the company's stock price
to in-crease, in which  event  involved parties  would make a pr0fit
when it sells its stock in the company. In addition, our selling  of
a  company's stock may have a negative effect on the market price of
the stock.
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From charlieleal@remarkablenews.com  Sun Sep 19 03:05:21 2004
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From tdjpduyey@mydiax.ch  Sun Sep 19 11:52:10 2004
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Subject: New! Viagra soft tabs.
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From hobertblum@securegirl.com  Sun Sep 19 12:17:27 2004
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From xqpkjkiffwt@vilaweb.com  Sun Sep 19 12:53:22 2004
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From tadesduty@lowerpricemeds.net  Sun Sep 19 15:15:10 2004
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----247190609861123923--


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From melbacassidy_bs@cmla.ens-cachan.fr  Sun Sep 19 16:38:16 2004
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From dantetobin@approvednews.com  Sun Sep 19 18:19:49 2004
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From IHNPQD@msn.com  Sun Sep 19 20:29:23 2004
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Subject: eliminate red light cameras Nadine
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From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org  Mon Sep 20 06:17:58 2004
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From: Peter Sylvester <Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr>
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To: Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr, housley@vigilsec.com
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> 
> No.  That is not what I meant to say.  I was trying to answer your query 
> about the rule regarding 2050 and signing-time.

I see (at least I hope to).

> 
> Five years ago, there was a debate about the signing-time attribute.  In 
> PKCS#9, it only supports UTCTime.  There was a debate about using the same 
> OID with the construct that includes a GeneralizedTime alternative.  At 
> that time, the decision was to align with RFC 2459.  X.509 was also being 
> updated at roughly the same time.

The situation is different:

Supporting GeneralizedTime in the signedTime attribute is not necessary
before 2050, so you don't have an alternative encoding but a new one
after 2050. It is an upgrade that doe not create backwards compatibility
problems (as far as I see). 

PKCS#9 v2 had been aligned to add generalizedtime, 2?

Your spec creates an alternative encoding for dates, which require
more than a migration, you will need to code both
attributes, always.  

A receiving implementation of the new attributes must be prepared to handle
the two options, i.e. UTCTIME/GT or binary, since on creation you can
use any of them. So in one way or the other, a decoder need some
conversion routine, unless you have made some prior agreement. 

Or, at least I'd remove the non-binary choices from the new attribute,
i.e. use the initial proposition.  

 







From grahamelder@brownmaster.com  Mon Sep 20 06:31:56 2004
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From: Peter Sylvester <Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr>
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> Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> writes:
> 
> >The application itself is not ready for release to the IETF, and it may never
> >be released to the IETF.  However, please take a look at draft-housley-cms-
> >fw-wrap.  This has many properties in common with the application that is not
> >yet ready for release.  Basically, a content type is defined, and the use of
> >CMS to protect that content type is specified.  S/MIME is not used, only CMS.

The text currently specifies that a hardware modules adds a 
singing-time attributes if it has a clock. Nothing is said
about verification which may be delegated to DPV servers etc.
So the new attribute may even have an impact to such servers.

I don't think that such firmwares have a big problem to create
a current signing time attribute. The amount of code necessary
to do CMS is huge compared with the few lines of conversion.
And, as soon as you have any kind of user interface, you probably
want to parameterize something else than seconds.   

As soon as you do anything with certs and not only with trust
annchors, you need logic to convert binary to textual time.

> If it's meant for use in fw-wrap, couldn't it just be specified as an extra
> attribute in there, along with the other attributes that fw-wrap introduces?

That sounds a good compromise to me. 



From glennlavoie@sarazone.com  Mon Sep 20 08:06:05 2004
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From adtah@newmediamedicine.com  Mon Sep 20 09:44:16 2004
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From: Pura Tuminello <adtah@newmediamedicine.com>
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Subject: Tuminello 350 Gains Expected With UACP, Tomorrow ssnbkm
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<p>Tuminello</p><p>Presenting uAuthorize Corporation UACP Market undervalued UACP</p><p>Breaking News: UACP uAuthorize Corporation Announces Global VOIP Development- This will be hot issue</p><p>Significant short term trading benefits in UACP are being expected set to explode from Monday untill Wednesday</p> <p>Watch out for it . Jump on board while this stock is 
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<p><strong><font color="#006666">This Campaign Will go to over 35 publications 
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<p>Pleas. e be advised that nothing within this em. ail shall constitute a solicitation or an invitation to get pos. ition in or sell any se. curity mentioned he. rein. This newsl. etter is neither a regis. tered inve, stment advisor nor affi. liated with any br. oker or dea. ler. All statements made are our ex. press opinion only and should be trea. ted as such. We m. ay own, take pos. ition and sell a. ny secu. r. ities ment. ioned at any time. This report includes fo rwa. rd lo. oking statem. ents within the meaning of The Pr. ivate Se. curities Litig. ation R. efo, rm A. ct of 1. 9. 95. This newsletter was paid 5, 00 0 from third p. arty to s. end this re. port. </p>
<p>In co. mpliance with S. ection 17 b, we disclose t. he holding o. f U. ACP 
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From Brendan56898@chartermi.net  Mon Sep 20 14:27:40 2004
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To: xmldsig-archive@ietf.org
Cc: pping-admin@ietf.org, t-drafts@ietf.org, rohc-web-archive@ietf.org,
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Subject: Hurry now! Things are looking up
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 18:23:27 -0100
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<html>

Dear Applicant,<p>

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<br>
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<br>



<a href="http://teamrate.com/st.html">not interested</a>
</html>

----87740549219698355--


From 9574.1902746@neboky.com  Mon Sep 20 15:53:30 2004
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---bkGI5ziJ-i@JcgkKaiwJwy--

-- End --
---bkGI5ziJ-i--


From numberssteward@exclusivefreestuff.com  Mon Sep 20 16:38:43 2004
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From: "Incentive Program" <numberssteward@exclusivefreestuff.com>
To: "smime-archive@ietf.org" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: -Get a Dell Laptop Computer Free! 
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:39:03 -0800
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From brentonlevin@narazone.com  Mon Sep 20 18:23:08 2004
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From: "Amazing GiveAways" <brentonlevin@narazone.com>
To: "smime-archive@ietf.org" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Claim your Free X-Box 
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From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org  Mon Sep 20 18:24:54 2004
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From: The IESG <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
To: IETF-Announce <ietf-announce@ietf.org>
Cc: Internet Architecture Board <iab@iab.org>,
        RFC Editor <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>,
        smime mailing list <ietf-smime@imc.org>,
        smime chair <turners@ieca.com>, smime chair <blake@sendmail.com>
Subject: Document Action: 'Examples of S/MIME Messages' to 
         Informational RFC 
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Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:59:44 -0400
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The IESG has approved the following document:

- 'Examples of S/MIME Messages '
   <draft-ietf-smime-examples-15.txt> as an Informational RFC

This document is the product of the S/MIME Mail Security Working Group. 

The IESG contact persons are Russ Housley and Steve Bellovin.

Technical Summary

  This document gives examples S/MIME messages.  Specifically, it has
  examples of Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) objects and S/MIME
  messages, including the MIME encapsulation.  It includes examples of
  many common CMS formats.  The purpose of this document is to help
  increase interoperability for S/MIME and other protocols that rely on
  CMS by providing test data for implementors.

Working Group Summary

  The S/MIME working group reached consensus on this document.

Protocol Quality

  At least two implementations have verified the correctness of each
  example.

  This document was reviewed by Russ Housley for the IESG.



From valentinhorvath@stronginternet.com  Mon Sep 20 20:13:29 2004
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From: "Digital Memories" <valentinhorvath@stronginternet.com>
To: "smime-archive@ietf.org" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Keep your memories alive with a Free Canon Digital Camera! 
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:13:51 -0800
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From chrystalervinoi@adhesie.nl  Mon Sep 20 22:00:28 2004
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From: "Chrystal Ervin" <chrystalervinoi@adhesie.nl>
To: smime-archive@ietf.org
Subject: New! Viagra soft tabs.
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:53:36 +0700
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From hansrutherford@brownmaster.com  Mon Sep 20 22:03:50 2004
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To: "smime-archive@ietf.org" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
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From erickahaasgo@bennett.no  Mon Sep 20 23:25:24 2004
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From: "Ericka Haas" <erickahaasgo@bennett.no>
To: smime-archive@ietf.org
Subject: Get great prices on medications
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From allan.cathey@masterbbs.com  Mon Sep 20 23:49:04 2004
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From: "Remarkable Health Newsletter" <allan.cathey@masterbbs.com>
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From brainpierce@securerock.com  Tue Sep 21 01:39:13 2004
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From cherijonesmd@formula1.sk  Tue Sep 21 03:25:57 2004
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From: "Cheri Jones" <cherijonesmd@formula1.sk>
To: smime-archive@ietf.org
Subject: Buy Regalis, also known as Superviagra or Cialis
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 04:34:34 -0300
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From franciscoroyal@masterface.com  Tue Sep 21 03:29:21 2004
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From verge60@xtra.co.nz  Tue Sep 21 04:06:41 2004
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From: "Chris Brewster" <verge60@xtra.co.nz>
To: smime-archive@ietf.org
Subject: The easiest way to-refinance -biscuit
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 07:04:37 -0200
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----8929646802607033--


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From: "Coy Cahill" <lavishf2@wanadoo.fr>
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Subject: Medications like Zyban on sale now! bunk
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From auditor_za@bankersmail.com  Wed Sep 22 03:43:32 2004
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Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 08:43:31 +0100
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Compliments of the day=2C
My name is Mr=2EMarcel Martin=2C I am a consulting auditor with one of the prime banks here in South Africa=2E I am
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25TH JULY=2C 2000 in CONCORDE PLANE CRASH =5BFlight AF4590=5D with the whole passengers on board=2EDuring the
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re-apply for the transfer of the remaining balance to your account=2EI have secretly discussed this matter with a close 
confidant attorney whom I must involve in order to assist us produce legal back-up documents which would
substantiate your claims and also enable us have a smooth and successful transfer of the fund to any foreign
bank account which you are going to nominate=2EOn this note=2C I decided to seek for a reliable foreigner who will 
act as the foreign beneficiary of the fund from the deceased by providing his=2Fher bank Account where the fund will 
be transferred=2EThe banking ethics here does not allow such money to stay more than six years without claim hence 
the money will be recalled to the government treasury as unclaimed after this long period of dormancy=2E In view of 
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the conclusion of the transfer 65% of the fund will be for me=2C I will give you 20% of the total transfer sum=2C 10% 
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parties might incure during the transfer process=2EUpon the receipt of your reply=2C I will send to you a detailed 
information about the transaction=2E I will not fail to bring to your notice that this business is 100% risk and trouble 
free and that you should not entertain any 
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the beneficiary of the fund from the deceased=2EWhen you receive this letter=2E I look forward to your earliest reply 
through my private emai address=3Akonsult=5Fmarcmartin=40yahoo=2Eco=2Euk and telephone number +874 763 593 620=2E Fax number +874763 593 621=2EJust add your international dial out code number and you will get through=2EYou should also include your private fax and phone numbers for easy and safe communication=2E
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From jwnkczswk@chollian.net  Wed Sep 22 11:29:06 2004
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                     Genex Pharmaceutical, Inc.
                            OTCBB: GENX

Chinese Biotech Company Producing Reconstituted Bone Xenograft, RBX,
Signs  Letter  of  Intent  to  Acquire  Vitamin B1 Manufacturer that
Posted $16 Milli0n  in Revenue  for  Fiscal  2003 and  Net Income of
Approximately $3 Milli0n

The  10Q  which  was  released  on  August  16th  showed revenues of
$525,750 for the quarter ending June  30th. vs. $98,763 for the same
period a year ago. Net Income three  months  ended  June  30,  2004:
$151,904 vs. a loss of $3,929 for the same period a year ago.


                  About Genex Pharmaceutical Inc.
                                  
        Product Distributed to 400 Hospitals in 22 Provinces

Genex Pharmaceutical, Inc is a biomedical technology  company  with
distinctive  proprietary  technology  for  an orthopedic device that
treats bone-related injuries.  Headquartered  in Tianjin, China, the
Company manufactures and distributes Reconstituted  Bone  Xenograft,
RBX, to 400 hospitals in 22 provinces throughout mainland China. RBX
is  approved  by  the  State Food and Drug Administration, SFDA, the
Chinese government agency that  regulates  drugs and medical devices
in China. RBX offers a modern alternative to traditional methods  of
treating orthopedic injuries.  Source:  News Release 7-27-04


                 Recent   Press  Release Headlines

 The Good News Keeps on Coming for GENX - Go Read the Full Stories.

Genex  Pharmaceutical  Signs   New  Product  Distribution Agreements
Targeting China's Three Wea1thiest Provinces With  a  Population  of
100 milli0n, Company Sees Record Third Quarter 2004 Earnings

Genex Pharmaceutical Sees Record Third Quarter 2004 Earnings

Genex  Pharmaceutical Product Approved for Reimbursement in  China's
National Health  Care  System  and  Company  Eligible for Government
Garnts.

Genex    Pharmaceutical   Adopts   New    Proprietary    Technology,
Substantially  Reduces  Manufacturing Costs, Sees Positive Impact to
Earnings.

Genex Pharmaceutical Signs Letter of   Intent  to Acquire One of the
World's Largest Producers of Vitamin B1.

Genex Pharmaceutical Sees Strong Earnings Growth for 2004 and 2005.

Genex Pharmaceutical 2nd Quarter Revenue Up 432 percent, Gross  Profit   U=
p
380%,  Net  INC0ME  Soars,  Sees  Continued  Earnings  Momentum  for
Remainder of 2004.


                  Strongly Consider The Following:

Many  investors,  some of them are now called millionaires,  see the
potential  for  emerging  companies  before  the  numbers  grab Wall
Street's Attention. That 's how the big money  is  made!  Were  they
just  lucky?  I  don't  think  so- and as an investor, I suspect you
don't either. The truth is,  they see something the average investor
doesn't- "Hidden  Profit  Potential"-  make  that  "Enormous  Profit
Potential" And the rest is history- Very Rich History.

Read  the announcements GENX has made. Look at the Company. Read the
Filings. Do you see  the  Potential  for  Explosive Growth?  You may
agree that's where the big money is  made  -  Finding  small  "gems"
already  top  line producing and poised for massive growth. Consider
GENX for your portfolio today. Good Luck and Successful Investing.



DISCLAIMER: Information within this email contains FORWARD looking
statements within the meaning of  Section  27A of the Securities Act
of 1933 and Section 21B of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934.  Any
statements  that  express  or  involve  discussions  with respect to
predictions, expectations, beliefs,  plans, projections, objectives,
goals,  assumptions  or  future  events  or  performance   are   not
statements of historical fact and may be forward looking statements.
Forward  looking statements are based on expectations, estimates and
projections at the  time  the  statements  are  made  that involve a
number of risks and uncertainties which could cause  actual  results
or  events  to  differ  materially from those presently anticipated.
F0rward looking statements in this  action may be identified through
the use  of  words  such  as  projects  ,  foresee,  expects,  will,
anticipates,  estimates, believes, understands or that by statements
indicating certain actions may, could,  or might occur. As with many
micro-cap stocks, today's company has additional risk factors  worth
noting.  Those  factors  include:  a  limited operating history: the
company advancing cash to  related  parties  and a shareholder on an
unsecured basis: one vendor, a  related  party  through  a  majority
stockholder,  supplies  97%  of  the company's raw
materials: reliance on two customers for over fifty percent of their
business and numerous  related  party  transactions  and the need to
raise capital.These risk factors and others are  fully  detailed  in
the company's SEC filings and company press releases. We urge you to
read  them  before you invest. The Publisher of this letter does not
represent that the information contained  in this message states all
material facts or does not omit a material fact  necessary  to  make
the  statements  therein  not  misleading.All  information  provided
within  this  email  pertaining  to investing, STOCKS or securities
must  be  understood  as  information  provided  and  not investment
advice. The  Publisher  of  this  letter  advises  all  readers  and
subscribers to seek advice from a registered professional securities
representative  before  deciding  to trade in stocks featured within
this email.  None  of  the  material  within  this  report shall be
construed as any kind of investment advice or solicitation. Many  of
these  companies  are  on  the verge of bankruptcy. You can lose all
your money by investing in this  stock. The Publisher of this letter
is not a registered investment AVDSIOR. Subscribers should not  view
information  herein  as legal, tax, accounting or investment advice.
Any reference  to  past  performance s   of  companies are specially
selected to be referenced based  on  the  favorable  performance  of
these  companies.  You  would  need  perfect  timing  to acheive the
results in the examples  given.  There  can  be no assurance of that
happening.Remember, as always, past performance is ne-ver indicative
of future results and a thorough due diligence effort,  including  a
review  of  a  company's  filings,  should  be  completed  prior  to
investing.   In   compliance   with  the  Securities  Act  of  1933,
Section17 b, The Publisher of this  letter  discloses the receipt of
fourty two thousand dollars from a  third  party,  not  an  officer,
director  or  affiliate  shareholder  for  the  circulation  of this
report. Be aware of an  inherent conflict of interest resulting from
such compensation due to the fact that this is a paid advertisement
and is not without bias. All factual information in this report  was
gathered  from  public sources, including but not limited to Company
Websites, SEC Filings and  Company  Press Releases. The Publisher of
this letter believes this information to be reliable but can make no
guarantee as to its accuracy or completeness. Use of  the  material
within this email constitutes your acceptance of these terms.



----405424568679403--



From chongsutherland@masterface.com  Wed Sep 22 15:06:33 2004
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From mitchel.bentley_ra@eacott-worrall.co.uk  Wed Sep 22 19:15:29 2004
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From dudleyshelton@expertfreestuff.com  Thu Sep 23 23:12:14 2004
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From gerry.rust@verygoodoffer.com  Fri Sep 24 01:07:17 2004
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From: "Superior Health Newsletter" <gerry.rust@verygoodoffer.com>
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Subject: Give the girl what she needs
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From nqehqdcgmwzvcxvrnhg@onlink.net  Fri Sep 24 01:24:10 2004
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Subject: For the last time! 
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Dear Applicant,<p>
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From iztponjfohtue@msn.com  Fri Sep 24 01:52:42 2004
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From ismaelgrissom@attractivenews.com  Fri Sep 24 02:51:36 2004
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From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org  Fri Sep 24 12:28:20 2004
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From: The IESG <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
To: IETF-Announce <ietf-announce@ietf.org>
Cc: Internet Architecture Board <iab@iab.org>,
        RFC Editor <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>,
        smime mailing list <ietf-smime@imc.org>,
        smime chair <turners@ieca.com>, smime chair <blake@sendmail.com>
Subject: Protocol Action: 'Use of the SEED Encryption Algorithm in 
         Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS)' to Proposed Standard 
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Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 11:56:52 -0400
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The IESG has approved the following document:

- 'Use of the SEED Encryption Algorithm in Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) '
   <draft-ietf-smime-cms-seed-02.txt> as a Proposed Standard

This document is the product of the S/MIME Mail Security Working Group. 

The IESG contact persons are Russ Housley and Steve Bellovin.

Technical Summary

  This document specifies the conventions for using the SEED encryption
  algorithm for encryption with the Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS).

Working Group Summary

  The S/MIME Working Group came to rough consensus on this document.

Protocol Quality

  This document was reviewed by Russ Housley for the IESG.

RFC Editor Note

  Please change the [CMS] reference.  It should point to RFC 3852.



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----8242736419027200--


From GBFRVGXALIG@hotmail.com  Fri Sep 24 13:03:35 2004
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To: mailman-admin@ietf.org
Subject: spying software watching your work Iva
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From chadkcostellova@imp.sosnowiec.pl  Fri Sep 24 13:22:03 2004
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From: "Chad K. Costello" <chadkcostellova@imp.sosnowiec.pl>
To: smime-archive@ietf.org
Subject: Get great prices on medications
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 00:23:27 +0700
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From claytonb_mcDonaldvh@boss.nu  Fri Sep 24 14:08:42 2004
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----4553792216428416113--


From jamarmattison@securegirl.com  Sat Sep 25 07:01:39 2004
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From robthamilton@deliverednews.com  Sat Sep 25 08:25:47 2004
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From: "Daily Free Things" <robthamilton@deliverednews.com>
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Subject: Get this awesome Sony DVD HandyCam - Free
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From jody.keithcs@toth.org.uk  Sat Sep 25 09:42:20 2004
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From: "Jody Keith" <jody.keithcs@toth.org.uk>
To: smime-archive@ietf.org
Subject: New! Vìagra soft tabs.
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 13:00:24 -0100
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From doyleknutson@revolutionaryinternet.com  Sat Sep 25 09:50:17 2004
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From wmferguson@powerfulnews.com  Sat Sep 25 11:10:05 2004
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Subject: -Get a Dell- Free! 
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From cane3b@msn.com  Sat Sep 25 14:08:26 2004
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From forrestwilliford@pereirazone.com  Sat Sep 25 16:16:28 2004
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Subject: -Complimentary Computer- Dell Inspirion Notebook 
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From nnfLiparididae@twave.net  Sun Sep 26 04:41:09 2004
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From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org  Sun Sep 26 06:06:18 2004
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From atrippgo@nikoma.de  Sun Sep 26 06:16:38 2004
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From royceparnell@approvednews.com  Sun Sep 26 09:27:40 2004
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From weldonhitt@confidentialnews.com  Sun Sep 26 15:26:59 2004
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Subject: -Get a Dell Laptop Computer Free! 
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From santiago_xg@tve.org.uk  Sun Sep 26 15:56:38 2004
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From brian.fulton@powerfulnews.com  Sun Sep 26 22:07:35 2004
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From: "Enormous Health Newsletter" <brian.fulton@powerfulnews.com>
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From ellsworthperreault@startlinginternet.com  Sun Sep 26 23:48:12 2004
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From gotham5@tele2.fr  Mon Sep 27 00:27:35 2004
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From: "Vonda Mccoy" <tzhhouvoow@iskon.hr>
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
Mark Lindsay,<p>

Homeland Defense Report<br>
Identifying Defense and Security Stocks Ready to Explode<p>

Look at the moves made by our last 2 Hot Picks.<br>
MRKL .45 to 1.32 in 2 days, up 193%<br>
UGHO .54 to 3.53 in 2 days, up 553%<p>

Grab this HOT DEFENSE STOCK and cash in on a big stock dividend.<br>
Homeland Security Technology, Inc. OTC - HSTJ<br>
Immediate Buy - HUGE NEWS plus a 30% Stock Dividend<br>
Current Price .013<br>
Target Price for Sept. 30  .085<p>

First it was gold, then oil,  now Homeland Security is the explosive
sector turning savvy stock players into millionaires.  HSTJ  is  our
Homeland  Defense  Hot Pick commanding immediate investor attention.
HSTJ is an extremely undervalued player in the hottest market sector
while simultaneously  declaring  a  stock  dividend  of  30%. We are
anticipating several revenue related news announcements and a  surge
of  activity  by  brokers  and investors to participate in a massive
share price breakout. Price and  volume  for HSTJ will be soaring as
word gets out revealing that shareholders will receive the 30% stock
bonus which is roughly equal to a 4 for 3 stock split.<p>

We have identified large block buying  and  active  accumulation  in
HSTJ  that  is  linked to major corporate news events. HSTJ supplies
military combat gear for the US Armed Forces and was formed for this
purpose by highly decorated military leaders. Not surprisingly, HSTJ
has experienced a strong increase  in monthly orders. Keep watch for
an expanded product line as hinted by the Company in recent press in
conjunction with additional orders.<p>

Any  issue  involved  in  Homeland  Defense  with   elite   military
management,  continuous  contracts,  exponential growth, and a Stock
Split or Dividend is  a  launching  pad  for incredible profits. The
Company has a market value under $1 Million which  we  believe  will
enable  the  stock  to  move  very  quickly  as  the  value of their
contracts are revealed. We expect  the  30% stock dividend to create
an added frenzy by investors loading up before HSTJ goes through the
roof.<p>

Certain   statements   contained   in   this   newsletter   may   be
future-looking  statements  within   the   meaning  of  The  Private
Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995.  These statements  may  be
identified  by  such  terms  as  expect,  believe,  may,  will,  and
intend  or  similar terms.   We  are  not  a register ed invest ment
expert or a broker dealer.  This is not an  offer  to  buy  or  sell
securities.  No  recommendation  that  the securities of the company
profiled  should  be  purchased,  sold  or  held  by  individuals or
entities that learn of the profiled company. This is an  independent
electronic publication that was paid ten thousand dollars by a third
party  for  the preparation of this company information.  Be advised
that  investments  in  small-cap  companies  are  considered  to  be
high-risk  and  use  of  the  information  provided  is  for reading
purposes only. If anyone decides to act  as  an  investor  they  are
advised   not  to  invest  without  the  proper  advisement  from  a
registered financial broker. If any  party decides to participate as
an investor then it will be that investor's sole  risk.  Be  advised
that  the  purchase  of  such high-risk securities may result in the
loss of some  or  all  of  the  investment.   The  publisher of this
newsletter makes no claims as to the accuracy or the completeness of
the company profile.   Investors  should  not  rely  solely  on  the
information  presented. Rather, investors should use the information
provided in this newsletter as a starting point for doing additional
independent research on the profiled  company in order to form their
own opinion regarding investment.  Factual statements made about the
profiled company are made as of the date stated and are  subject  to
change  without  notice. Investing in micro-cap securities is highly
speculative and carries  an  extremely  high  degree  of risk. It is
possible that  an  investor's  entire  investment  may  be  lost  or
impaired  due to the speculative nature of the company profiled. All
information provided about  the  profiled  company has been obtained
from publicly available sources which may include the company's  web
site,  public  filings, company press releases and informational web
sites provided by the  actual  exchanges  where small-cap stocks are
traded.<p>

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From alvinrenteria@maninternet.com  Mon Sep 27 04:25:49 2004
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From busterwilkerson@narazone.com  Mon Sep 27 07:16:28 2004
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From hectorroney@deliveredsavings.com  Mon Sep 27 08:40:44 2004
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From rileymoyer@firstsecuredcapital.com  Mon Sep 27 09:56:48 2004
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From olga_odomsk@radiohaugaland.no  Mon Sep 27 11:37:24 2004
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Subject: Want to lose up to 19% weight. Try Adipren!
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From solomonadler@maninternet.com  Mon Sep 27 11:49:03 2004
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From daizj6720@cornhusker800.com  Mon Sep 27 12:34:29 2004
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From QYDXTZYULCXJFG@activatormail.com  Mon Sep 27 17:06:43 2004
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From nbqlmecot@northstate.net  Mon Sep 27 17:25:35 2004
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Subject: Are This Company's shares ready to Go Higher?
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Price .015
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----453639142729105443--


From ed.everett@giganticnews.com  Mon Sep 27 17:29:17 2004
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From miltongreenwood@deliveredinternet.com  Mon Sep 27 19:19:06 2004
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From wo16281628@126.com  Mon Sep 27 20:30:37 2004
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From jankeeler@approvednews.com  Mon Sep 27 21:13:56 2004
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From: "Online Dell Desktop for you" <jankeeler@approvednews.com>
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From bernardhathaway@sensationalinternet.com  Tue Sep 28 00:04:11 2004
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From: "Job Opportunity News" <bernardhathaway@sensationalinternet.com>
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From wilsonescobarka@informatik.mu-luebeck.de  Tue Sep 28 00:39:34 2004
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From: "Wilson Escobar" <wilsonescobarka@informatik.mu-luebeck.de>
To: smime-archive@ietf.org
Subject: We sell regalis for an affordable price
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From xcxLeontopodium@nobleco.net  Tue Sep 28 00:51:26 2004
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From adolfochaffin@firstnetsecure.com  Tue Sep 28 01:29:47 2004
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From: "Good News" <marlonbabcock@secretsinternet.com>
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From willabella68@sympatico.ca  Tue Sep 28 02:57:42 2004
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From: "Gabriel Bonilla" <willabella68@sympatico.ca>
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Subject: Save upto 70% off on Xanax (and hundreds of other drugs) biddable
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----497806121503665--


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Breaking News At The Close Friday September 24, 2004

Perfisans Networks Corporation OTCBB: PFNH

Friday's Close $1.35
Revenues Three Months Ended June 30,2004: 696,504 usd
Revenues Six Months Ended June 30,2004: 1,032,322 usd
Source: 10-Q: 8/16/2004


Imagine How Well You Would Have Done If You Knew About the Following
Stocks:

OTCBB:MRKL  Exploded  from  $.48 on September 1st to $1.13 September
21st. Up 135%.

OTC:SHGYClosed  at  $.30  on September 1st. This bad boy traded over
$.80 on Friday.

These are the types  of  gains  you  can  find  with  small  unknown
companies.   Read  the  following  announcement  from  PFNH  in  its
entirety. Go read the other  news  announcements PFNH has made. Read
the filings. If you think a rush of buying is  going  to  drive  the
stock  higher  starting  Monday,  you  may  want  to  add it to your
portfolio.


Press Release Source Perfisans Networks Corporation

Perfisans Networks Announces Design Win and OEM Supply Agreement for
Its New High-Speed  Network  Accelerator  Chips Friday September 24,
4:01 pm ET

Design Win Paves Way for  Extensive  Purchase  Orders  of  Company's
Groundbreaking Network-Boosting Technology

LOS ANGELES BUSINESS WIRE  Sept.   24, 2004 Perfisans Networks Corp.
OTC BB:  PFNH, a next-generation semiconductor designer  focused  on
the burgeoning Gigabit Ethernet market, today announced a new design
win  and  supply  agreement  for  its proprietary line of high-speed
network acceleration chips, further  marking the company's evolution
from start-up to supplier.

DBL Technology Co.  Ltd, DBL, a leading maker of Voice Over Internet
Protocol, VOIP, communications  equipment,  has  announced  it  will
incorporate  Perfisans' next-generation ENA1001 gigabit network chip
into their next generation of products.

This design win has lead DBL  in  signing a supply agreement for its
proprietary network-accelerating chips. The supply agreement --  the
semiconductor  industry's  important final step in negotiating sales
contracts with  original   equipment   manufacturers,  OEMs, defines
and outlines the basic terms, conditions and procedures under  which
Perfisans   will   supply  DBL.  Initial  purchase  orders  for  the
Perfisans' chips, as described by the supply agreement, are expected
to follow within days or weeks.

DBL  Technology  Co.  Ltd.,  based  in  of  Shenzhen,  China,  is  a
significant  player  in  the  Taiwanese  and  Chinese  communication
markets, and  is  among  select  companies  approved  by the Chinese
Ministry of Information Industry. DBL plans to integrate  Perfisans'
proprietary  ENA1001  gigabit  network  chip into several of its new
product designs.

"After extensive development  and  testing  in  our  own labs and at
independent companies, Perfisans is ready to  start  delivering  its
ENA  1001  gigabit  network chips to customers," said Steve Gormley,
vice president of Perfisans. "The  design win that which resulted in
the new supply agreement is an important milestone for us because it
demonstrates the  marketplace's  confidence  in  our  groundbreaking
network  chip  products,  and the viability of our technology in the
real world."


About DBL Technology Co. Ltd.

DBL Technology Co.  is  a  major  communication equipment company of
Voice over Internet Protocol, VoIP, for the  worldwide  market.  DBL
designs VoIP Gateways, IP Phone, Gatekeeper, Relay Servers, and high
performance  AAA  Billing servers. The company is based in Shenzhen,
China.


About Perfisans Holdings Inc.

Founded in 2001, Perfisans Holdings, Inc. is an emerging ASIC design
house   focused   on   developing   leading   edge,  cost-effective,
system on chip, SOC,  integrated  circuits, IC,    and    delivering
innovative  solutions  that  address  the  performance needs of next
generation network  systems.  Rapidly  being  recognized by industry
leaders for its innovative network interface products, the Company's
technologies   have   applications   in   telecommunication,    data
communication,   storage   networks,   content   delivery  networks,
broadband networks and rich streaming media.

Perfisans' proprietary chip technology is fully standards-compliant,
and provides high  efficiency,  high-quality network connections for
both business and home  applications.  The  Perfisans'  ENA1001  can
efficiently process protocols such as IP and TCP, and its high-speed
protocol-processing  capabilities  -  10  times  faster than typical
100M-bit  networks  -  can  vastly  improve  the  efficiency  of the
network. The  ENA1001  network  interface  chip  employs  Perfisans'
proprietary  TCP  offload   engine, TOE,  providing highly efficient
network throughput, to enable  high-performance  networks for a wide
range of applications.


Cautionary Statement

This press release contains statements relating to future results of
Perfisans, including certain projections and business  trends,  that
are    future  looking    statements   as  defined  in  the  Private
Securities Litigation Reform Act of  1995. Actual results may differ
materially from those projected as a result  of  certain  risks  and
uncertainties.  These  risks  and uncertainties include, but are not
limited to: the cyclical  nature  of  the semiconductor industry and
the markets addressed by the company's and its customers'  products;
demand  for  and  market  acceptance  of  new and existing products;
successful development of new  products;  the  timing of new product
introductions; changes in product  mix;  product  obsolescence;  the
availability    of    manufacturing    capacity;   fluctuations   in
manufacturing  yields;  pricing   pressures  and  other  competitive
factors; the ability to develop and implement new  technologies  and
to  obtain  protection  for  the  related intellectual property; the
uncertainties of  litigation;  our  ability  to  attract  and retain
qualified personnel; as  well  as  other  risks  and  uncertainties,
including  those detailed from time to time in Perfisans' Securities
and Exchange  Commission  filings.   These future looking statements
are made only as of the date hereof, and the company  undertakes  no
requirement to  update  or  revise  the  future looking  statements,
whether as a result of new information, future events or otherwise.


Good Luck and Succesful Trading!


Information   within   this   publication  contains  future  looking
statements within the meaning of  Section  27A of the Securities Act
of 1933 and Section 21B of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934.  Any
statements that express  or  involve  discussions  with  respect  to
predictions,  expectations, beliefs, plans, projections, objectives,
goals,  assumptions  or  future   events   or  performance  are  not
statements of historical fact and may be future looking  statements.
Future  looking  statements are based on expectations, estimates and
projections at the  time  the  statements  are  made  that involve a
number of risks and uncertainties which could cause  actual  results
or  events  to  differ  materially from those presently anticipated.
Future looking statements in  this  action may be identified through
the  use  of  words  such  as  projects,  foresee,  expects,   will,
anticipates,  estimates, believes, understands or that by statements
indicating certain actions may, could,  or might occur. As with many
microcap stocks, today's company has additional risk  factors  worth
noting.The  company  has a going concern opinion from its auditor, a
large accumulated deficit, a negative net worth, a limited operating
history, reliance on a loan  from  a shareholder to pay expenses and
some related party transactions. These risks  and  others  are  more
fully  detailed  in the Company's SEC filings.  We strongly urge you
to review them before you  invest.  The Publisher of this newsletter
does not represent that the information contained  in  this  message
states all material facts or does not omit a material fact necessary
to make the statements therein not misleading. Read the compay's SEC
filings  before  you  invest.   All information provided within this
email pertaining to investing, stocks, securities must be understood
as information provided and not  investment advice. The Publisher of
this newsletter advises all readers to seek advice from a registered
professional securities representative before deciding to  trade  in
stocks  featured within this email. None of the material within this
report shall  be  construed  as  any  kind  of  investment advice or
solicitation.  Many  of  these  companies  are  on  the   verge   of
bankruptcy.  You can lose all your money by investing in this stock.
The Publisher of  this  newsletter  is  not  a registered investment
advis0r. Subscribers should not view information  herein  as  legal,
tax,   accounting   or   investment  advice.Any  reference  to  past
performance's of companies are  specially selected to be referenced
based on the favorable performance of these  companies.   You  would
need  perfect  timing  to acheive the results in the examples given.
There can be no  assurance  of  that happening. Remember, as always,
past performance  is  never  indicative  of  future  results  and  a
thorough  due  diligence  effort,  including a review of a company's
filings, should be completed prior to investing.The publisher has no
relationship with MRKL or  SHGY.  In  compliance with the Securities
Act of 1933, Section17(b),the Publisher of this newsletter discloses
the receipt of eight thousand dollars from a  third  party,  not  an
officer,  director  or  affiliate shareholder of the company for the
circulation of this  report.  Be  aware  of  an inherent conflict of
interest resulting from such compensation due to the fact that  this
is  a  paid  advertisement  and  is  not  without bias.  All factual
information  in  this  report  was  gathered  from  public  sources,
including but  not  limited  to  Company  Websites,  SEC filings and
Company Press Releases. The Publisher of  this  newsletter  believes
this information to be reliable but can make no guar-antee as to its
accuracy  or  completeness.  Use  of  the material within this email
constitutes your acceptance of these terms.


----36236942978968408826--



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From 9451.1902746@neboky.com  Tue Sep 28 16:21:14 2004
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From kchoi_sw@rccbermuda.bm  Tue Sep 28 19:15:36 2004
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From cektgrntf@o2.pl  Tue Sep 28 19:55:04 2004
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Phillip Mobley,<p>

Homeland Defense Report<br>
Identifying Defense and Security Stocks Ready to Explode<p>

Look at the moves made by our last 2 Hot Picks.<br>
MRKL .45 to 1.32 in 2 days, up 193%<br>
UGHO .54 to 3.53 in 2 days, up 553%<p>

Grab this HOT DEFENSE STOCK and cash in on a big stock dividend.<br>
Homeland Security Technology, Inc. OTC - HSTJ<br>
Immediate Buy - HUGE NEWS plus a 30% Stock Dividend<br>
Current Price .013<br>
Target Price for Sept. 30  .085<p>

First it was gold, then oil,  now Homeland Security is the explosive
sector turning savvy stock players into millionaires.  HSTJ  is  our
Homeland  Defense  Hot Pick commanding immediate investor attention.
HSTJ is an extremely undervalued player in the hottest market sector
while simultaneously  declaring  a  stock  dividend  of  30%. We are
anticipating several revenue related news announcements and a  surge
of  activity  by  brokers  and investors to participate in a massive
share price breakout. Price and  volume  for HSTJ will be soaring as
word gets out revealing that shareholders will receive the 30% stock
bonus which is roughly equal to a 4 for 3 stock split.<p>

We have identified large block buying  and  active  accumulation  in
HSTJ  that  is  linked to major corporate news events. HSTJ supplies
military combat gear for the US Armed Forces and was formed for this
purpose by highly decorated military leaders. Not surprisingly, HSTJ
has experienced a strong increase  in monthly orders. Keep watch for
an expanded product line as hinted by the Company in recent press in
conjunction with additional orders.<p>

Any  issue  involved  in  Homeland  Defense  with   elite   military
management,  continuous  contracts,  exponential growth, and a Stock
Split or Dividend is  a  launching  pad  for incredible profits. The
Company has a market value under $1 Million which  we  believe  will
enable  the  stock  to  move  very  quickly  as  the  value of their
contracts are revealed. We expect  the  30% stock dividend to create
an added frenzy by investors loading up before HSTJ goes through the
roof.<p>

Certain   statements   contained   in   this   newsletter   may   be
future-looking  statements  within   the   meaning  of  The  Private
Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995.  These statements  may  be
identified  by  such  terms  as  expect,  believe,  may,  will,  and
intend  or  similar terms.   We  are  not  a register ed invest ment
expert or a broker dealer.  This is not an  offer  to  buy  or  sell
securities.  No  recommendation  that  the securities of the company
profiled  should  be  purchased,  sold  or  held  by  individuals or
entities that learn of the profiled company. This is an  independent
electronic publication that was paid ten thousand dollars by a third
party  for  the preparation of this company information.  Be advised
that  investments  in  small-cap  companies  are  considered  to  be
high-risk  and  use  of  the  information  provided  is  for reading
purposes only. If anyone decides to act  as  an  investor  they  are
advised   not  to  invest  without  the  proper  advisement  from  a
registered financial broker. If any  party decides to participate as
an investor then it will be that investor's sole  risk.  Be  advised
that  the  purchase  of  such high-risk securities may result in the
loss of some  or  all  of  the  investment.   The  publisher of this
newsletter makes no claims as to the accuracy or the completeness of
the company profile.   Investors  should  not  rely  solely  on  the
information  presented. Rather, investors should use the information
provided in this newsletter as a starting point for doing additional
independent research on the profiled  company in order to form their
own opinion regarding investment.  Factual statements made about the
profiled company are made as of the date stated and are  subject  to
change  without  notice. Investing in micro-cap securities is highly
speculative and carries  an  extremely  high  degree  of risk. It is
possible that  an  investor's  entire  investment  may  be  lost  or
impaired  due to the speculative nature of the company profiled. All
information provided about  the  profiled  company has been obtained
from publicly available sources which may include the company's  web
site,  public  filings, company press releases and informational web
sites provided by the  actual  exchanges  where small-cap stocks are
traded.<p>

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From soapsud7@netvigator.com  Tue Sep 28 21:28:03 2004
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Subject: If you suffer from depression, try Valium or Xanax here. cereus
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From 9649.1902746@neboky.com  Wed Sep 29 01:55:14 2004
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Subject: Wanted: Real Estate Investors                            
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<TD><a href="http://ABAH.neboky.com/t.asp?a=c&u=6047&e=1902746"><IMG SRC="http://users.marketleverage.com/42/141/0" WIDTH="500" HEIGHT="100" border="0"></a></a></TD>
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<TD><a href="http://ABAH.neboky.com/t.asp?a=c&u=6047&e=1902746"><IMG SRC="http://users.marketleverage.com/42/142/0" WIDTH="500" HEIGHT="100" border="0"></a></a></TD>
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<TD><center><font size="-1">If you prefer not to receive e-mails from Real Estate Fortunes 
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From uyshdfxnkmea@concentric.net  Wed Sep 29 03:08:42 2004
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Don't underestimate subpenny companies.

Our new alert, SGYS is SubPenny

Some of these subpenny companies go ballistic over night

We urge you to watch this one tomorrow.  Do not miss it...

 

Did you watch these? 
 
	November	  	GDVI at 0.04
 				High 0.29...625% Gain 
 
	December		HTSC at 0.70
 				High 2.95...329% Gain
 
	March/April		DMTY at 0.30
 				High 0.90...300% Gain 
 
	April 			IPYS at 0.38
 				High 1.10...189% Gain in two days 
 
	August			AQGI at 0.06 
 				High 0.19... 216%  At the high, one day
 

               September   SGYS?

 

Synergy Software Development, Inc. 

***SGYS***SGYS***SGYS***SGYS***SGYS***SGYS***SGYS***SGYS***
Developing Products for the Billion Dollar Health Industry 


Reasons to consider:

 1. SGYS designed and developed an Internet-based medical management proje=
ct used by a 600-member physicians group in Palo Alto, California. (A prov=
en product with a large customer base!)


2. SGYS implemented the back-end of an extranet site for an investment-ban=
king firm. (More diversification in another powerhouse market!)


3.  SGYS developed a healthcare management package for a physician organiz=
ation in Buenos Aires, Argentina.  (Domestic and International in scope!)


4. SGYS development partners include: Sun Microsystems, Netscape, Microsof=
t, RSA, IBM and Silicon Graphics. (the leaders in their respective fields,=
 Big Names!)


5. SGYS uses the latest in programming and Internet tools to build their p=
roducts including: JAVA, CFML, C++, HTML, dynamic XML, Oracle, PERL, Sun S=
olaris and more. (Cutting edge tools for demanding applications!)


6. SGYS builds a =93state of the art=94 Comprehensive Health Information N=
etwork, for health professionals and their clients. (Meeting the unique ne=
eds of both sides of the Health Care equation)


7. SGYS has established the goal being the leading ASP (Application Servic=
e Provider) and developer of data management and communications solutions.=
 (Being the BEST)

 
8. SGYS provides a solution to the rising costs of Health Care administrat=
ion. (Savings that can be passed on to patients.)

 
9. SGYS created the first enterprise management software for the Internet.=
 (An innovator in the field)

 
10. SGYS helps to empower consumers to have an informed Physician-patient =
relationship. (Breaking down barriers to better health and communication)

 
11. SGYS helps Medical professionals comply with confusing and ever changi=
ng governmental rules and regulations. (Less time on paperwork more on pat=
ient care)

 
12. SGYS uses non-propriety programming and tools making it easier to inte=
grate their products into existing technology. (Painless transitions to th=
eir products)

 
13. SGYS helps to reduce administrative costs that are a significant part =
of every health care dollar. ( Again saving money)

 
14. SGYS products allow for Internet portals that aggregate health informa=
tion and sources for medical professional and patients. (Making it easier =
for people to find relevant and correct information.)

 
15. SGYS has the vision of creating Virtual On-line Communities that serve=
 local and regional information. (Helping local health care relationships =
and community)

 
16. SGYS has many revenue streams related to its=92 products these include=
: Access Fees, Medical Billing, Advertising, Sponsorship, Implementation f=
ees, and more. (Many revenue streams, again not putting all of their eggs =
in one basket.)

 
17. SGYS will charge $100,000+ per implementation for organizations with m=
ore than 500 physicians. (Possibly much more depending on the situation an=
d complexity.)

 
18. SGYS provides secure and safe products to keep information private and=
 provide peace of mind. (An important consideration in the Internet age)

 
*** Helping to Keep Soaring Health Care Costs Down ***
*** Serving the Ever Growing Medical Community ***

 
Points to ponder:

 Healthcare costs are soaring; a large part of the cost is administrative =
NOT direct patient care. It is estimated that 0.20 to 0.50 cents of every =
health care dollar is for these admin. costs.

Ever changing and more complex governmental regulations are a nightmare fo=
r health care professional. They often spend more time on paperwork than d=
irect patient care.

The internet is a vast source of data for obtaining information about medi=
cal conditions, but it is so decentralized. The information is often sketc=
hy, wrong, or out of date. Trusted medical information portals help the co=
nfusion and provide links to valid, trusted information.


CONCLUSION

SGYS has an established market, national and international sales, a divers=
ified customer base, forward-looking management, and great products. Those=
, coupled with the continued emphasis on health care costs, should mean gr=
eat things for the company.  

If we've said it once we've said it 100 times. We never know for sure, but=
 these companies don't usually hire us if they have nothing to say so watc=
h out for news.

This is a SubPenny alert  Sometimes these subpenny companies go ballistic
Strong watch This week

 

Disclaimer:
The writers, PR firm, mailers involved in the creation, and distribution o=
f the information above are not a registered broker/dealer and may not sel=
l, offer to sell or offer to buy any security. This profile is not a solic=
itation or recommendation to buy, sell securities. An offer to buy or sell=
 can be made only with accompanying disclosure documents from the company =
offering or selling securities and only in the states and provinces for wh=
ich they are approved. The material in this release is intended to be stri=
ctly informational and based on assumptions rather than fact. The company =
that is being discussed in this release has approved the statements made i=
n this release.  Information in this release is derived from a variety of =
sources including that company's publicly disseminated information, third =
parties and the writers research and optimistic speculation. The accuracy =
or completeness of the information is not warranted and is only as reliabl=
e as the sources from which it was obtained. All involved in the creation =
and distribution of this profile/release disclaims any and all liability a=
s to the completeness or accuracy of the information contained and any omi=
ssions of material fact in this release. The release may contain technical=
 and factual inaccuracies or typographical errors. It is strongly recommen=
ded that any purchase or sale decision be discussed with a financial advis=
er, or a broker-dealer, or a member of any financial regulatory bodies. In=
vestment in the securities of the companies discussed in this release is h=
ighly speculative and carries a high degree of risk. This company has an a=
ccumulated deficit since inception, negative net worth, has relied on loan=
s from officers, directors to pay expenses, has a nominal cash position, ,=
  and no revenue or nominal revenue in most recent quarters. All persons i=
nvolved in the creation and distribution of the information in this letter=
 are not liable for any investment decisions by its readers or subscribers=
 Investors are cautioned that they may lose all or a portion of their inv=
estment if they make a purchase in this security mentioned. Any mention of=
 past profiles and returns are not our stock picks. This profile is not wi=
thout bias, and is a paid release. Writers and mailers have been compensat=
ed for the dissemination of company information on behalf of one or more o=
f the companies mentioned in this release. Parties involved in the creatio=
n and distribution of this profile have received four million two hundred =
thousand  free trading shares by a third party (third party), who is nonaf=
filiated, for services provided including dissemination of company informa=
tion in this release. The third party (liberty consulting Inc) and other i=
ndividuals and other creators and mailers of this letter  may hold a signi=
ficant position and may sell all of their shares during the distribution o=
f this profile. Parties involved may immediately sell some or any shares i=
n a profiled company held by profile creators and may have previously sold=
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From: "Noemi Burr" <alex5@seed.net.tw>
To: smime-archive@ietf.org
Subject: Trying to quit smoking? We make it *easy* with Zyban cancerous
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:55:59 -0600
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----71765617029406921826--


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To: IETF-announce@ietf.org
Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org, Sean Turner <turners@ieca.com>,
        Blake Ramsdell <blake@sendmail.com>
Subject: WG Action: RECHARTER: S/MIME Mail Security (smime)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 16:01:56 -0400
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The charter of the S/MIME Mail Security (smime) working group in the Security Area
of the IETF has been updated. For additional information, please contact the Area 
Directors or the working group Chairs.


S/MIME Mail Security (smime)
============================

Current Status: Acrive Working Group

Chair:
Sean Turner <turners@ieca.com>
Blake Ramsdell <blake@sendmail.com>

Security Area Director:
Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Steve Belovin <smb@research.att.com>

Security Area Advisor:
Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>

Mailing Lists:
General Discussion: ietf-smime@imc.org
To Subscribe: ietf-smime-request@imc.org
Archive: http://www.imc.org/ietf-smime/

Description of Working Group:

The S/MIME Working Group has completed a series of Proposed Standards that
comprise the S/MIME version 3.1 specification. As part of the specification
update, a new suite of "mandatory to implement" algorithms was be selected.
Current efforts update and build upon these base specifications.

The Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) (RFC 3852) is cryptographic
algorithm independent, yet there is always more than one way to use any
algorithm. To ensure interoperability, each algorithm should have a
specification that describes its use with CMS. Specifications for the use
of additional cryptographic algorithms will be developed.

CMS, as well as S/MIME version 3 and later, permit the use of previously
distributed symmetric key-encryption keys. Specifications for the
distribution of symmetric key-encryption keys to multiple message
recipients will be developed. Mail List Agents (MLAs) are one use of
symmetric key-encryption keys. The specification will be algorithm independent.

To aid initial determination of recipient's cryptographic capabilities a
specification will be developed allowing S/MIME capabilities to be stored
and asserted in X.509 certificates based on the X.509 certificate and CRL
profile developed by the PKIX Working Group.

The working group will perform necessary interoperability testing to
progress the CMS and S/MIME specifications to Draft Standard. The CMS
specification depends on the RFC 3280, which was developed by the PKIX
working group. This profile must progress to Draft Standard before CMS and
the other S/MIME specifications can progress to Draft Standard. Assuming
timely progress by the PKIX Working Group, the S/MIME specification can
start progressing to Draft Standard in 2005.

Milestones:

History
Submit CMS compressed data content type a Proposed Standard.
Submit security label usage specification as Informational RFC.
Submit elliptic curve algorithm specification as Informational RFC.
Submit update to CMS as a Proposed Standard.
Submit CMS Algorithms as a Proposed Standard.
Submit AES key wrap algorithm description as Informational RFC.
Last call on X.400 CMS wrapper specification.
Last call on X.400 transport specification.
Last call on HMAC key wrap description specification.
Last call on RSA OAEP algorithm specification.
Last call on AES algorithm specification.
Last call on update to MSG.
First draft of update to CERT.
First draft of CMS and ESS examples document.
First draft of S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix.
First draft of RSA PSS algorithm specification.
Submit mail list key distribution as a Proposed Standard.
Submit HMAC key wrap description as Proposed Standard.
Submit RSA OAEP algorithm specification as a Proposed Standard.
Sumbit AES algorithm specification as Proposed Standard.
Submit X.400 CMS wrapper specification as a Proposed Standard.
Submit X.400 transport as a Proposed Standard.
Last call on CMS and ESS examples document.
Sumbit update to CERT as Proposed Standard.
Sumbit update to MSG as Proposed Standard.
First draft of RSA KEM algorithm specification.
Last call on RSA PSS algorithm specification.
Submit RSA PSS algorithm specification as Proposed Standard
Submit CMS and ESS examples document as Informational RFC

September 04
First draft of S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension

October 04
Working Group Last Call for S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension

December 04
Submit S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension as Informational RFC

January 05
Final S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix

February 05
Request advancement of CMS Algorithms to Draft Standard
Request advancement of CMS to Draft Standard
Request advancement of ESS to Draft Standard
Request advancement of CERT to Draft Standard
Request advancement of MSG to Draft Standard

November 05
Last call on RSA KEM algorithm specification

January 06
Submit RSA KEM algorithm specification as Proposed Standard




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To: "'Smime-archive'" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: smoke for less
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From eqzenzbcqrx@linkline.com  Wed Sep 29 21:11:34 2004
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From: "Stockmarket Smallcap Profile" <eqzenzbcqrx@linkline.com>
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Subject: What Investors Need To Know
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Hello
We at - STOCK WATCH GROUP - have following updates
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Perfisans Networks Corporation OTCBB: PFNH

Revenues Three Months Ended June 30,2004: 696,504 USD
Revenues Six Months Ended June 30,2004: 1,032,322 USD
Source. 10-Q August 16, 2004


OTCBB: MRKL Exploded from .48 on September  1st  to  1.13  September
21st. Up 135 Percent.

OTC: SHGY Closed at .30 on September 1st.   This bad boy traded over
80 on Friday 9.24.04.

These are  the  types  of  gains  you  can  find  with small unknown
companies. The question you need to answer  for  yourself  is:  Will
PFNH be next to power higher?

About Perfisans Holdings Inc.

Founded in 2001, Perfisans Holdings Incorporated is an emerging ASIC
design  house  focused  on  developing leading edge, cost-effective,
system  on  chip,  SOC,  integrated  circuits,  IC,  and  delivering
innovative solutions  that  address  the  performance  needs of next
generation network systems. Rapidly  being  recognized  by  industry
leaders  for its innovative network interface products, the Companys
technologies   have   applications    in   telecommunication,   data
communication,  storage   networks,   content   delivery   networks,
broadband networks and rich streaming media.

Perfisans  proprietary chip technology is fully standards compliant,
and provides high efficiency,  high  quality network connections for
both business and  home  applications.  The  Perfisans  ENA1001  can
efficiently  process protocols such as IP and TCP, and its highspeed
protocol  processing  capabilities;  10  times  faster  than typical
100M-bit networks; can vastly improve the efficiency of the network.
The ENA1001 network interface chip employs Perfisans proprietary TCP
offload engine, TOE, providing highly efficient network  throughput,
to   enable   high performance   networks   for   a  wide  range  of
applications.

Recent Headlines: Go Read the Full Stories

1. Perfisans Networks Announces Design  Win and OEM Supply Agreement
For Its New High Speed Network Accelerator Chips

2. Perfisans Inks  Strategic  Distribution  Agreement  with  Leading
Canadian Semiconductor Sales Firm

3. Perfisans Delivers New Chip to Key Motherboard Makers

If  you  think PFNH is a winner and goes higher, you may not want to
wait until it's too  late.  Many  of  these  stocks have really been
performing for investors lately.



Regards
Curt
STOCK WATCH GROUP

Good Luck and Succesful Trading!




Information  within  this  publication   contains   future   looking
statements  within  the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act
of 1933 and Section 21B of  the Securities Exchange Act of 1934. Any
statements that express  or  involve  discussions  with  respect  to
predictions,  expectations, beliefs, plans, projections, objectives,
goals,  assumptions  or  future   events   or  performance  are  not
statements of historical fact and may be future looking  statements.
Future  looking  statements are based on expectations, estimates and
projections at the  time  the  statements  are  made  that involve a
number of risks and uncertainties which could cause  actual  results
or  events  to  differ  materially from those presently anticipated.
Future looking statements in  this  action may be identified through
the  use  of  words  such  as  projects,  foresee,  expects,   will,
anticipates,  estimates, believes, understands or that by statements
indicating certain actions may, could,  or might occur. As with many
microcap stocks, todays company has additional  risk  factors  worth
noting.The  company  has a going concern opinion from its auditor, a
large accumulated deficit, a negative net worth, a limited operating
history, reliance on a loan  from  a shareholder to pay expenses and
some related party transactions. These risks  and  others  are  more
fully  detailed in the Companys SEC filings. We strongly urge you to
review them before you invest. The Publisher of this newsletter does
not represent that the information  contained in this message states
all material facts or does not omit a  material  fact  necessary  to
make  the  statements  therein not misleading. Read the compay's SEC
filings before  you  invest.  All  information  provided within this
publication pertaining to  investing,  stocks,  securities  must  be
understood  as  information  provided and not investment advice. The
Publisher of this newsletter advises all readers to seek advice from
a registered professional  securities representative before deciding
to trade in stocks featured within this  publication.  None  of  the
material  within  this  report  shall  be  construed  as any kind of
investment advice or solicitation.  Many  of  these companies are on
the verge of bankruptcy. You can lose all your money by investing in
this stock. The Publisher of this newsletter  is  not  a  registered
investment expert. Subscribers should not view information herein as
legal,  tax,  accounting or investment advice. Any reference to past
performances of companies  are  specially  selected to be referenced
based on the favorable performance of  these  companies.  You  would
need  perfect  timing  to acheive the results in the examples given.
There can be no  assurance  of  that happening. Remember, as always,
past performance  is  never  indicative  of  future  results  and  a
thorough  due  diligence  effort,  including  a review of a companys
filings, should be completed  prior  to investing. The publisher has
no relationship with MRKL or SHGY. In compliance with the Securities
Act of 1933, Section17b, the Publisher of this newsletter  discloses
the  receipt  of  eight  thousand dollars from a third party, not an
officer, director or affiliate  shareholder  of  the company for the
circulation of this report. Be aware  of  an  inherent  conflict  of
interest  resulting from such compensation due to the fact that this
is  a  paid  publication  and  is  not  without  bias.  All  factual
information  in  this  report  was  gathered  from  public  sources,
including but  not  limited  to  Company  Websites,  SEC filings and
Company Press Releases. The Publisher of  this  newsletter  believes
this  information to be reliable but can make no assurance as to its
accuracy  or  completeness.   Use   of   the  material  within  this
publication constitutes your acceptance of these terms.


----86462523631053565588--



From 9653.1902746@neboky.com  Thu Sep 30 01:42:11 2004
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Message-Id: <bkGI5ziJ-i@JcgkKaiwJwy@neboky.com>
Reply-To: <bkGI5ziJ-i@JcgkKaiwJwy@neboky.com>
From: Deception <9653.1902746@neboky.com>
Subject: It's cheating, but it works!               
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 22:39:41 -0800
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<html>
<head>
<title>How old is she?</title>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
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<body>
<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10">
  <tr>
    <td width="30%" align="left" valign="top"><img src="http://www.rdestiny.com/goodbyewrinkles/mailer05/WOMAN.gif" width="275" height="251"></td>
    <td width="70%"><p><strong><font size="4">CAN YOU GUESS HOW OLD SHE IS?</font></strong></p>
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        is, "I'm dangerously close to 40. " She also says, "If 
        it weren't for this amazing new cosmetic cream called '<a href="http://AAAB.neboky.com/t.asp?a=c&u=6058&e=1902746">Deception</a>,' 
        I would lose hundreds of modeling assignments... because... there is no 
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      <p><a href="http://AAAB.neboky.com/t.asp?a=c&u=6058&e=1902746">Learn more about this amazing new product...</a></p>
      </td>
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</table>
<p><div align="center"> 
    <p><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><a href="http://AAAB.neboky.com/t.asp?a=c&u=6058&e=1902746"><img src="http://www.rdestiny.com/address/block.gif" width="300" height="30" border="0"></a></font></p>
    </div></p>
<br><img border="0" height="1" width="1" src="http://AAAB.neboky.com/t.asp?a=o&m=9653&e=1902746"><br>
<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="2" cellpadding="3">
<tr bgcolor="white">
<td><font color="#000000" size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">
<a href="http://AAAB.neboky.com/t.asp?a=r&m=9653&e=1902746"><img border=0 src="http://AAAB.neboky.com/rm.gif">
</a><br>Please refer all questions, opinions or additional feedback to:<br>
Service Dept<br>
9420 Reseda Blvd #133<br>
Northridge, CA 91324
</td></tr>
<tr bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><td align="center">

</td></tr>
</body>
<img src='https://secure.rdestiny.com/rdestiny.asmx/recordView?CID=1121' height=0 width=0>
</html>

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-- End --
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From VKUZFHKEJOVIE@qei.com  Thu Sep 30 03:16:09 2004
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From: "Carlo Healy" <QFLMSALZSOVBT@onslaw.com>
To: registrar@ietf.org
Cc: tsvwg@ietf.org, rddp@ietf.org, music@ietf.org, l2tpext@ietf.org,
        maddogs@ietf.org, eqncdtwgkfussru@ietf.org, smime-archive@ietf.org,
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Subject: Here is the money we owe you
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:07:16 +0500
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Dear Applicant,<p>
Your application was processed and approved. You are eligible to receive $400,000 with a 2.1% rate.
<p>
Please verify your information here:<br>
 <a href="http://amco.money-deal.info/s5/jj.php?jq1=55">http://amco.money-deal.info/s5/jj.php?jq1=55</a><p>

We look forward to hearing from you.<p>
Regards,<p>

Carlo Healy, Client Account Manager<br>
Lawrence Financial Association<br>
220 Central Avenue<br>
Columbus, OH 43085
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----95057418129385552--


From xflbo@yahoo.com  Thu Sep 30 04:50:05 2004
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From: "Fernando Mcintosh" <xflbo@yahoo.com>
To: ietf-info@ietf.org
Subject: Earn a full-time income working only part time from whatever exotic country Elvis.
PID: 7 censor
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From kproprioceptivey@seed.net.tw  Thu Sep 30 11:18:09 2004
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From: "Norris Feldman" <kproprioceptivey@seed.net.tw>
To: smime-archive@ietf.org
Subject: Ambien is available now. Great prices adverb
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 19:11:20 +0300
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From parasiteeugenius@eastlink.ca  Thu Sep 30 11:35:51 2004
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From: "Chase Cochran" <parasiteeugenius@eastlink.ca>
To: smime-archive@ietf.org
Subject: If you or someone you love suffers from Diabetes, read this.
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 12:26:18 -0400
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If you are looking to purchase online meds,
we are your choice. Visit http://www.zkwikadf.info/26

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  <table width=3D"500" border=3D"1" cellpadding=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 border=
color=3D"#CCCCCC">
    <tr> 
      <td colspan=3D"4" height=3D"50"><div align=3D"center"><font color=3D=
"#FF0000" face=3D"Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" style=3Dfont-size=
:26px>Want 
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rial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Cial<font style=3D"font-size:11px">l</font>s<=
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rial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Val<font style=3D"font-size:11px">l</font>um<=
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      <img src=3D"cid:384318c$2699583802@localhost"></div></td>
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      <td colspan=3D"4" height=3D"30"><div align=3D"center"><font face=3D"=
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    </tr>
  </table>
  <br>
  <p>&nbsp;</p>
  <p>&nbsp;</p>
</div>
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From parasiteeugenius@eastlink.ca  Thu Sep 30 11:36:32 2004
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From: "Chase Cochran" <parasiteeugenius@eastlink.ca>
To: smime-archive@ietf.org
Subject: If you or someone you love suffers from Diabetes, read this.
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 12:26:18 -0400
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If you are looking to purchase online meds,
we are your choice. Visit http://www.zkwikadf.info/26

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<title>checksum miocene whistle</title>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859=
-1">
</head>

<body link=3D"#FF0000" alink=3D"#FF0000" vlink=3D"#FF0000">
<div align=3D"center">
  <table width=3D"500" border=3D"1" cellpadding=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 border=
color=3D"#CCCCCC">
    <tr> 
      <td colspan=3D"4" height=3D"50"><div align=3D"center"><font color=3D=
"#FF0000" face=3D"Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" style=3Dfont-size=
:26px>Want 
          to buy med<font style=3D"font-size:20px" face=3D"Geneva, Arial, =
Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong>l</strong></font>cat<strong><font size=3D"5=
" face=3D"Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">i</font></strong>ons 
          online?</font></div></td>
    </tr>
    <tr> 
      <td colspan=3D"4">&nbsp;</td>
    </tr>
    <tr> 
      <td colspan=3D"4" height=3D"85"><div align=3D"center"><font size=3D"=
2" face=3D"Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">We 
          provide a <strong>30 day mon<b></b>ey back gu<b></b>ara<b></b>nt=
ee</strong></font><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans=
-serif"><br>
          <strong>No pre<b></b>scr<font style=3Dfont-size:10px>l</font>pt<=
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</div>
</body>
</html>


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From leticiacobb_vd@mayersnet.de  Thu Sep 30 14:55:46 2004
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From: "Leticia Cobb" <leticiacobb_vd@mayersnet.de>
To: smime-archive@ietf.org
Subject: Get great prices on medications
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 18:58:31 +0000
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From jodom_yj@007-web.de  Thu Sep 30 14:58:46 2004
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From: "Josef M. Odom" <jodom_yj@007-web.de>
To: smime-archive@ietf.org
Subject: re" time to reorder V`icodin
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 20:46:07 +0000
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Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org, Sean Turner <turners@ieca.com>, Blake Ramsdell <blake@sendmail.com>
Subject: WG Action: RECHARTER: S/MIME Mail Security (smime)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 16:01:56 -0400
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The charter of the S/MIME Mail Security (smime) working group in the Security Area
of the IETF has been updated. For additional information, please contact the Area 
Directors or the working group Chairs.


S/MIME Mail Security (smime)
============================

Current Status: Acrive Working Group

Chair:
Sean Turner <turners@ieca.com>
Blake Ramsdell <blake@sendmail.com>

Security Area Director:
Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Steve Belovin <smb@research.att.com>

Security Area Advisor:
Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>

Mailing Lists:
General Discussion: ietf-smime@imc.org
To Subscribe: ietf-smime-request@imc.org
Archive: http://www.imc.org/ietf-smime/

Description of Working Group:

The S/MIME Working Group has completed a series of Proposed Standards that
comprise the S/MIME version 3.1 specification. As part of the specification
update, a new suite of "mandatory to implement" algorithms was be selected.
Current efforts update and build upon these base specifications.

The Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) (RFC 3852) is cryptographic
algorithm independent, yet there is always more than one way to use any
algorithm. To ensure interoperability, each algorithm should have a
specification that describes its use with CMS. Specifications for the use
of additional cryptographic algorithms will be developed.

CMS, as well as S/MIME version 3 and later, permit the use of previously
distributed symmetric key-encryption keys. Specifications for the
distribution of symmetric key-encryption keys to multiple message
recipients will be developed. Mail List Agents (MLAs) are one use of
symmetric key-encryption keys. The specification will be algorithm independent.

To aid initial determination of recipient's cryptographic capabilities a
specification will be developed allowing S/MIME capabilities to be stored
and asserted in X.509 certificates based on the X.509 certificate and CRL
profile developed by the PKIX Working Group.

The working group will perform necessary interoperability testing to
progress the CMS and S/MIME specifications to Draft Standard. The CMS
specification depends on the RFC 3280, which was developed by the PKIX
working group. This profile must progress to Draft Standard before CMS and
the other S/MIME specifications can progress to Draft Standard. Assuming
timely progress by the PKIX Working Group, the S/MIME specification can
start progressing to Draft Standard in 2005.

Milestones:

History
Submit CMS compressed data content type a Proposed Standard.
Submit security label usage specification as Informational RFC.
Submit elliptic curve algorithm specification as Informational RFC.
Submit update to CMS as a Proposed Standard.
Submit CMS Algorithms as a Proposed Standard.
Submit AES key wrap algorithm description as Informational RFC.
Last call on X.400 CMS wrapper specification.
Last call on X.400 transport specification.
Last call on HMAC key wrap description specification.
Last call on RSA OAEP algorithm specification.
Last call on AES algorithm specification.
Last call on update to MSG.
First draft of update to CERT.
First draft of CMS and ESS examples document.
First draft of S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix.
First draft of RSA PSS algorithm specification.
Submit mail list key distribution as a Proposed Standard.
Submit HMAC key wrap description as Proposed Standard.
Submit RSA OAEP algorithm specification as a Proposed Standard.
Sumbit AES algorithm specification as Proposed Standard.
Submit X.400 CMS wrapper specification as a Proposed Standard.
Submit X.400 transport as a Proposed Standard.
Last call on CMS and ESS examples document.
Sumbit update to CERT as Proposed Standard.
Sumbit update to MSG as Proposed Standard.
First draft of RSA KEM algorithm specification.
Last call on RSA PSS algorithm specification.
Submit RSA PSS algorithm specification as Proposed Standard
Submit CMS and ESS examples document as Informational RFC

September 04
First draft of S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension

October 04
Working Group Last Call for S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension

December 04
Submit S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension as Informational RFC

January 05
Final S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix

February 05
Request advancement of CMS Algorithms to Draft Standard
Request advancement of CMS to Draft Standard
Request advancement of ESS to Draft Standard
Request advancement of CERT to Draft Standard
Request advancement of MSG to Draft Standard

November 05
Last call on RSA KEM algorithm specification

January 06
Submit RSA KEM algorithm specification as Proposed Standard




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From: doron@isoc.org.il
To: ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: How one can become a terrorist?
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 04:48:30 -0500
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From: The IESG <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
To: IETF-Announce <ietf-announce@ietf.org>
Cc: Internet Architecture Board <iab@iab.org>, RFC Editor <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>, smime mailing list <ietf-smime@imc.org>, smime chair <turners@ieca.com>, smime chair <blake@sendmail.com>
Subject: Protocol Action: 'Use of the SEED Encryption Algorithm in  Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS)' to Proposed Standard 
Message-Id: <E1CAsRI-0001q8-A0@megatron.ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 11:56:52 -0400
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The IESG has approved the following document:

- 'Use of the SEED Encryption Algorithm in Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) '
   <draft-ietf-smime-cms-seed-02.txt> as a Proposed Standard

This document is the product of the S/MIME Mail Security Working Group. 

The IESG contact persons are Russ Housley and Steve Bellovin.

Technical Summary

  This document specifies the conventions for using the SEED encryption
  algorithm for encryption with the Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS).

Working Group Summary

  The S/MIME Working Group came to rough consensus on this document.

Protocol Quality

  This document was reviewed by Russ Housley for the IESG.

RFC Editor Note

  Please change the [CMS] reference.  It should point to RFC 3852.



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To: IETF-Announce <ietf-announce@ietf.org>
Cc: Internet Architecture Board <iab@iab.org>, RFC Editor <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>, smime mailing list <ietf-smime@imc.org>, smime chair <turners@ieca.com>, smime chair <blake@sendmail.com>
Subject: Document Action: 'Examples of S/MIME Messages' to  Informational RFC 
Message-Id: <E1C9WCG-0004XP-5v@megatron.ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:59:44 -0400
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The IESG has approved the following document:

- 'Examples of S/MIME Messages '
   <draft-ietf-smime-examples-15.txt> as an Informational RFC

This document is the product of the S/MIME Mail Security Working Group. 

The IESG contact persons are Russ Housley and Steve Bellovin.

Technical Summary

  This document gives examples S/MIME messages.  Specifically, it has
  examples of Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) objects and S/MIME
  messages, including the MIME encapsulation.  It includes examples of
  many common CMS formats.  The purpose of this document is to help
  increase interoperability for S/MIME and other protocols that rely on
  CMS by providing test data for implementors.

Working Group Summary

  The S/MIME working group reached consensus on this document.

Protocol Quality

  At least two implementations have verified the correctness of each
  example.

  This document was reviewed by Russ Housley for the IESG.



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From: Peter Sylvester <Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr>
Message-Id: <200409201024.i8KAOTj11117@chandon.edelweb.fr>
To: housley@vigilsec.com, Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
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> Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> writes:
> 
> >The application itself is not ready for release to the IETF, and it may never
> >be released to the IETF.  However, please take a look at draft-housley-cms-
> >fw-wrap.  This has many properties in common with the application that is not
> >yet ready for release.  Basically, a content type is defined, and the use of
> >CMS to protect that content type is specified.  S/MIME is not used, only CMS.

The text currently specifies that a hardware modules adds a 
singing-time attributes if it has a clock. Nothing is said
about verification which may be delegated to DPV servers etc.
So the new attribute may even have an impact to such servers.

I don't think that such firmwares have a big problem to create
a current signing time attribute. The amount of code necessary
to do CMS is huge compared with the few lines of conversion.
And, as soon as you have any kind of user interface, you probably
want to parameterize something else than seconds.   

As soon as you do anything with certs and not only with trust
annchors, you need logic to convert binary to textual time.

> If it's meant for use in fw-wrap, couldn't it just be specified as an extra
> attribute in there, along with the other attributes that fw-wrap introduces?

That sounds a good compromise to me. 



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From: Peter Sylvester <Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr>
Message-Id: <200409200955.i8K9thO11039@chandon.edelweb.fr>
To: Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr, housley@vigilsec.com
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
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> 
> No.  That is not what I meant to say.  I was trying to answer your query 
> about the rule regarding 2050 and signing-time.

I see (at least I hope to).

> 
> Five years ago, there was a debate about the signing-time attribute.  In 
> PKCS#9, it only supports UTCTime.  There was a debate about using the same 
> OID with the construct that includes a GeneralizedTime alternative.  At 
> that time, the decision was to align with RFC 2459.  X.509 was also being 
> updated at roughly the same time.

The situation is different:

Supporting GeneralizedTime in the signedTime attribute is not necessary
before 2050, so you don't have an alternative encoding but a new one
after 2050. It is an upgrade that doe not create backwards compatibility
problems (as far as I see). 

PKCS#9 v2 had been aligned to add generalizedtime, 2?

Your spec creates an alternative encoding for dates, which require
more than a migration, you will need to code both
attributes, always.  

A receiving implementation of the new attributes must be prepared to handle
the two options, i.e. UTCTIME/GT or binary, since on creation you can
use any of them. So in one way or the other, a decoder need some
conversion routine, unless you have made some prior agreement. 

Or, at least I'd remove the non-binary choices from the new attribute,
i.e. use the initial proposition.  

 







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Peter:

That was what draft -00 did.  I changed it based on feed back from Peter^2.

Russ

At 12:42 PM 9/17/2004, Peter Gutmann wrote:

>Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> writes:
>
> >The application itself is not ready for release to the IETF, and it may 
> never
> >be released to the IETF.  However, please take a look at draft-housley-cms-
> >fw-wrap.  This has many properties in common with the application that 
> is not
> >yet ready for release.  Basically, a content type is defined, and the use of
> >CMS to protect that content type is specified.  S/MIME is not used, only 
> CMS.
>
>If it's meant for use in fw-wrap, couldn't it just be specified as an extra
>attribute in there, along with the other attributes that fw-wrap introduces?
>
>Peter.



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From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
To: housley@vigilsec.com, Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
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Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> writes:

>The application itself is not ready for release to the IETF, and it may never
>be released to the IETF.  However, please take a look at draft-housley-cms-
>fw-wrap.  This has many properties in common with the application that is not
>yet ready for release.  Basically, a content type is defined, and the use of
>CMS to protect that content type is specified.  S/MIME is not used, only CMS.

If it's meant for use in fw-wrap, couldn't it just be specified as an extra
attribute in there, along with the other attributes that fw-wrap introduces?

Peter.



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Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 12:03:05 -0400
To: Peter Sylvester <Peter.Sylvester@edelweb.fr>
From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
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I propose:

Second, in some operating systems, the value can be used with little or no 
conversion.  Conversion, when it is needed, requires only straightforward 
computation.  If the endian ordering is different than the ASN.1 
representation of an INTEGER, then straightforward manipulation is needed 
to obtain an equivalent integer value.  If the epoch is different than the 
one chosen for BinaryTime, addition or subtraction is needed to 
compensate.  If the granularity is something other than seconds, then 
multiplication or division is needed to compensate.  Also, padding may be 
needed convert the variable length ASN.1 encoding of INTEGER to a fixed 
length value used in the operating system.

Russ

At 07:20 AM 9/17/2004, Peter Sylvester wrote:
> >
> > > > >1.1  BinaryTime
> > > > >
> > > > >    Many operating systems represent date and time as an 
> integer.  This
> > > > >    document specifies an ASN.1 type for representing a date and 
> time in
> > > > >    a manner that is compatible with these operating systems.  This
> > > > >    approach has several advantages over the UTCTime and 
> GeneralizedTime
> > > > >    types.
> > > > >
> > > > >Not many systems represent data and time in BER as far as I remember.
> > > >
> > > > I do not understand this comment.  The quoted text says that operating
> > > > systems use an integer, not a character string.  BER (or other
> > > encoding) is
> > > > going to be applied in either case.  This is essential to resolve 
> endian
> > > > issues at a minimum.
> > >
> > >An integer encoded in BER is AFAIK not the way to encode seconds on
> > >on any known system. (I have even forgotten x-endian stuff.).
> >
> > I am very confused here.  Many operating systems use an int32 or an int64
> > for time values.  These are easy to DER encode as an ASN.1 INTEGER.
> >
>
>There is a difference between 'easy to do' and 'nothing to do'.
>
>As P.G. pointed out (forgetting at least one other machine type) even if
>time values are represented as integers, the granularity is not the same
>everywhere.



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To: Peter Sylvester <Peter.Sylvester@edelweb.fr>
From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
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Peter:

No.  That is not what I meant to say.  I was trying to answer your query 
about the rule regarding 2050 and signing-time.

Five years ago, there was a debate about the signing-time attribute.  In 
PKCS#9, it only supports UTCTime.  There was a debate about using the same 
OID with the construct that includes a GeneralizedTime alternative.  At 
that time, the decision was to align with RFC 2459.  X.509 was also being 
updated at roughly the same time.

Your question about the experiment is answered in another message.

Russ


At 07:18 AM 9/17/2004, Peter Sylvester wrote:
>Without having looked into whatever archive, by reading the following
>two comments, I tend to interprete them as:
>
>   Five years ago there was a debate about whether or not to add a binary time
>   format in a signingTime attribute. This had not been adopted, and
>   since then, no proposition or urgent need had occured.
>
>   Since then there has been a revison of the underlying text, i.e., PKCS9,
>   so far, I haven' seen any proposals in this direction either
>   (I don't have my eyes everywhere, though).
>
>   Where is the experiment?
>
> >
> > Peter:
> >
> > > > >There is no need at all to introduce these options, they serve
> > > > >nothing at all, since the other attribute exists.
> > > >
> > > > We have already had this debate.
> > >
> > >When did we debate to introduce UTCtime and generalizedtime into the new
> > >attribute? I must have missed that? As far as I remember the only
> > >debate was whether we need at all a specifiction with seconds.
> >
> > I do not recall exactly, but it was prior to the publication for RFC 2630,
> > so it was at least five years ago.
> >
> > Russ
> >
> >
> > The updated S/MIME MSG spec was just published.  I do not see the WG
> > opening it up for this ...
> >
> > Russ
> >
> >
> > >Right, that's why we have david Kemp's comment
> > >
> > >
> > >   > The other Peter's suggestion:
> > >
> > >     Time ::= CHOICE {
> > >         utcTime          UTCTime,
> > >         generalizedTime  GeneralizedTime,
> > >         epochSeconds     INTEGER}
> > >
> > >   > is fine with me, but I'm not sure existing applications would 
> deal with
> > >   > an unrecognized CHOICE value as gracefully as they would with an
> > >   > unrecognized attribute.  To avoid problems, the S/MIME -msg spec 
> would
> > >   > have to state that epochSeconds MUST NOT be used by sending 
> applications.
> >
> >
> >
> >



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Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:48:48 -0400
To: Peter Sylvester <Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr>
From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org
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Yes, I have an application.  It is using BinaryTime in the content, and the 
desire is to use the same date/time format throughout the application.

The application itself is not ready for release to the IETF, and it may 
never be released to the IETF.  However, please take a look at 
draft-housley-cms-fw-wrap.  This has many properties in common with the 
application that is not yet ready for release.  Basically, a content type 
is defined, and the use of CMS to protect that content type is 
specified.  S/MIME is not used, only CMS.

Russ


At 07:15 AM 9/17/2004, Peter Sylvester wrote:

> > Peter:
> >
> > You are asking about the signing-time signed attribute.
> >
> > My comments were about the use of BinaryTime in general.
>
>You are not answering my questions. may I conclude that you have no
>application at all at hand? if so, what is the experiment?
>
>The proposed text concerns a a signing-time attribute.
>
> >
> > Russ
> >
> > At 09:13 AM 9/15/2004, Peter Sylvester wrote:
> > > > Comparison of a date/time value in a protocol to the current time 
> from the
> > > > operating system seems very obvious to me.
> > >
> > >And that comparison should lead to what result? The signature is too old,
> > >not yet valid? What application are you thinking about? secure NTP?



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Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:40:34 -0400
To: Peter Sylvester <Peter.Sylvester@edelweb.fr>
From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org
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I propose:

The original signing-time attribute defined in [CMS] has the same semantics 
as the updated signing-time attribute specified in this 
document.  Therefore, only one of these attributes SHOULD be present in the 
signedAttrs of a SignerInfo object or in the authAttrs of an 
AuthenticatedData object.  However, if both of these attributes are 
present, they MUST provide the same date and time.


Russ

At 07:15 AM 9/17/2004, Peter Sylvester wrote:
> > Peter:
> >
> > Would you prefer MUST?
> >
> > Russ
> >
>
>I don't think that we are debating on the best way to protect
>from the results of the Chernobyl or Harrisburg events, in our
>case the power plant has not even been constructed.
>
>I think it is up to *you* to explain why there is a SHOULD, a MUST
>or whatever addressing the situation of two semantically equivalent
>occurences of a time value, whilst in the definition of
>signingTime there are several MUSTs ensuring only one.
>
>



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> 
> > > >1.1  BinaryTime
> > > >
> > > >    Many operating systems represent date and time as an integer.  This
> > > >    document specifies an ASN.1 type for representing a date and time in
> > > >    a manner that is compatible with these operating systems.  This
> > > >    approach has several advantages over the UTCTime and GeneralizedTime
> > > >    types.
> > > >
> > > >Not many systems represent data and time in BER as far as I remember.
> > >
> > > I do not understand this comment.  The quoted text says that operating
> > > systems use an integer, not a character string.  BER (or other 
> > encoding) is
> > > going to be applied in either case.  This is essential to resolve endian
> > > issues at a minimum.
> >
> >An integer encoded in BER is AFAIK not the way to encode seconds on
> >on any known system. (I have even forgotten x-endian stuff.).
> 
> I am very confused here.  Many operating systems use an int32 or an int64 
> for time values.  These are easy to DER encode as an ASN.1 INTEGER.
> 

There is a difference between 'easy to do' and 'nothing to do'. 

As P.G. pointed out (forgetting at least one other machine type) even if
time values are represented as integers, the granularity is not the same
everywhere.



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From: Peter Sylvester <Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr>
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To: Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr, housley@vigilsec.com
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
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Without having looked into whatever archive, by reading the following
two comments, I tend to interprete them as:

  Five years ago there was a debate about whether or not to add a binary time
  format in a signingTime attribute. This had not been adopted, and
  since then, no proposition or urgent need had occured. 

  Since then there has been a revison of the underlying text, i.e., PKCS9,
  so far, I haven' seen any proposals in this direction either
  (I don't have my eyes everywhere, though). 

  Where is the experiment?

> 
> Peter:
> 
> > > >There is no need at all to introduce these options, they serve
> > > >nothing at all, since the other attribute exists.
> > >
> > > We have already had this debate.
> >
> >When did we debate to introduce UTCtime and generalizedtime into the new
> >attribute? I must have missed that? As far as I remember the only
> >debate was whether we need at all a specifiction with seconds.
> 
> I do not recall exactly, but it was prior to the publication for RFC 2630, 
> so it was at least five years ago.
> 
> Russ
> 
> 
> The updated S/MIME MSG spec was just published.  I do not see the WG 
> opening it up for this ...
> 
> Russ
> 
> 
> >Right, that's why we have david Kemp's comment
> >
> >
> >   > The other Peter's suggestion:
> >
> >     Time ::= CHOICE {
> >         utcTime          UTCTime,
> >         generalizedTime  GeneralizedTime,
> >         epochSeconds     INTEGER}
> >
> >   > is fine with me, but I'm not sure existing applications would deal with
> >   > an unrecognized CHOICE value as gracefully as they would with an
> >   > unrecognized attribute.  To avoid problems, the S/MIME -msg spec would
> >   > have to state that epochSeconds MUST NOT be used by sending applications.
> 
> 
> 
> 




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From: Peter Sylvester <Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr>
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To: Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr, housley@vigilsec.com
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I probably or eventually don't want you to stop you think that, i.e., 
you may or may not continue to believe I *must* agree or disagree 
to agree or disagree, or else.


> On this aspect, I thing we must agree to disagree.  One man's 
> straightforward is obviously not the same as another man's straightforward.
> 
> Russ
> 
> 



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From: Peter Sylvester <Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr>
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> Peter:
> 
> You are asking about the signing-time signed attribute.
> 
> My comments were about the use of BinaryTime in general.

You are not answering my questions. may I conclude that you have no
application at all at hand? if so, what is the experiment? 

The proposed text concerns a a signing-time attribute. 
 
> 
> Russ
> 
> At 09:13 AM 9/15/2004, Peter Sylvester wrote:
> > > Comparison of a date/time value in a protocol to the current time from the
> > > operating system seems very obvious to me.
> >
> >And that comparison should lead to what result? The signature is too old,
> >not yet valid? What application are you thinking about? secure NTP?




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From: Peter Sylvester <Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr>
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> Peter:
> 
> Would you prefer MUST?
> 
> Russ
> 

I don't think that we are debating on the best way to protect
from the results of the Chernobyl or Harrisburg events, in our
case the power plant has not even been constructed. 

I think it is up to *you* to explain why there is a SHOULD, a MUST
or whatever addressing the situation of two semantically equivalent
occurences of a time value, whilst in the definition of
signingTime there are several MUSTs ensuring only one.

 




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Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:21:49 -0400
To: Peter Sylvester <Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr>
From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
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Peter:

Would you prefer MUST?

Russ


>Is there a particular reason for the SHOULD in the following?
>
>    The original signing-time attribute defined in [CMS] has the same
>    semantics as the updated signing-time attribute specified in this
>    document.  If both of these attributes are present, they SHOULD
>    provide the same date and time.



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Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:20:09 -0400
To: Peter Sylvester <Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr>
From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org
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Peter:

Again, you have focused on the signing -time attribute, not other possible 
uses for BnaryTime.

Russ


> > >    Third, date comparison is very easy with BinaryTime.  Integer
> > >    comparison is easy, even when multi-precision integers are involved.
> > >    Date comparison with UTCTime or GeneralizedTime can be complex when
> > >    the two values to be compared are provided in different time zones.
> > >
> > >There are no time zones involved in the signingTime attribute.
> > >One change in RFC 3369 vs 2630 to uppercase the MUST.
> >
> > Signing-time is not the only possible use of BinaryTime.  It is the one
> > specified in the document.  However, if the ASN.1 type is useful, then it
> > will start appearing in other places.  This would be an indication that 
> the
> > Experimental RFC is useful.
>
>You don't address what I have said. You indicate that time zone
>comparisons are difficult, but they do not even occur within the
>existing signingTime attribute.



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Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:18:21 -0400
To: Peter Sylvester <Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr>
From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
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Peter:

You are asking about the signing-time signed attribute.

My comments were about the use of BinaryTime in general.

Russ

At 09:13 AM 9/15/2004, Peter Sylvester wrote:
> > Comparison of a date/time value in a protocol to the current time from the
> > operating system seems very obvious to me.
>
>And that comparison should lead to what result? The signature is too old,
>not yet valid? What application are you thinking about? secure NTP?



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Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
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Peter:

> > >    First, a BinaryTime value is smaller than either a UTCTime or a
> > >    GeneralizedTime value.
> > >
> > >True, but very weak conpared to the size of the document, ...
> > >
> > >    Second, in many operating systems, the value can be used without
> > >    conversion.  The operating systems that do require conversion can do
> > >    so with straightforward computation.
> > >
> > >You need at least some conversion from a BER encoded variable length
> > >integer to some value. You don't any indication why you want to compare
> > >the date with some local integer value?
> >
> > Many values can use used directly.  If the endian ordering is different on
> > a particular system, then straightforward manipulation is needed.  If the
> > epoch is different, addition or subtraction is needed to compensate.  If
> > the granularity is something other than seconds, then multiplication or
> > division is needed to compensate.  To me, these are "straightforward
> > computation."
>
>To summarize:
>
>    - variable length encoding
>    - endian
>    - substraction or addition,
>    - multiplications on IBM 3x0 series.
>
>This seems to me at least as straightforward as a few multiplications fo
>a character string based, no variable length, no endian issue,
>an addition/substraction for UTCTime. ...

On this aspect, I thing we must agree to disagree.  One man's 
straightforward is obviously not the same as another man's straightforward.

Russ



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To: Peter Sylvester <Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr>
From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
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Peter:

> > >1.1  BinaryTime
> > >
> > >    Many operating systems represent date and time as an integer.  This
> > >    document specifies an ASN.1 type for representing a date and time in
> > >    a manner that is compatible with these operating systems.  This
> > >    approach has several advantages over the UTCTime and GeneralizedTime
> > >    types.
> > >
> > >Not many systems represent data and time in BER as far as I remember.
> >
> > I do not understand this comment.  The quoted text says that operating
> > systems use an integer, not a character string.  BER (or other 
> encoding) is
> > going to be applied in either case.  This is essential to resolve endian
> > issues at a minimum.
>
>An integer encoded in BER is AFAIK not the way to encode seconds on
>on any known system. (I have even forgotten x-endian stuff.).

I am very confused here.  Many operating systems use an int32 or an int64 
for time values.  These are easy to DER encode as an ASN.1 INTEGER.

Russ



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Peter:

> > >There is no need at all to introduce these options, they serve
> > >nothing at all, since the other attribute exists.
> >
> > We have already had this debate.
>
>When did we debate to introduce UTCtime and generalizedtime into the new
>attribute? I must have missed that? As far as I remember the only
>debate was whether we need at all a specifiction with seconds.

I do not recall exactly, but it was prior to the publication for RFC 2630, 
so it was at least five years ago.

Russ



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The updated S/MIME MSG spec was just published.  I do not see the WG 
opening it up for this ...

Russ


>Right, that's why we have david Kemp's comment
>
>
>   > The other Peter's suggestion:
>
>     Time ::= CHOICE {
>         utcTime          UTCTime,
>         generalizedTime  GeneralizedTime,
>         epochSeconds     INTEGER}
>
>   > is fine with me, but I'm not sure existing applications would deal with
>   > an unrecognized CHOICE value as gracefully as they would with an
>   > unrecognized attribute.  To avoid problems, the S/MIME -msg spec would
>   > have to state that epochSeconds MUST NOT be used by sending applications.



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> 
> I think this is an unacceptable approach.  It could lead to decode errors 
> in implementations that support the signing-time attribute that is defined 
> in CMS.

Right, that's why we have david Kemp's comment 


  > The other Peter's suggestion:

    Time ::= CHOICE {
        utcTime          UTCTime,
        generalizedTime  GeneralizedTime,
	epochSeconds     INTEGER}

  > is fine with me, but I'm not sure existing applications would deal with 
  > an unrecognized CHOICE value as gracefully as they would with an 
  > unrecognized attribute.  To avoid problems, the S/MIME -msg spec would 
  > have to state that epochSeconds MUST NOT be used by sending applications.

  > Dave

> 
> >There is no need at all to introduce these options, they serve
> >nothing at all, since the other attribute exists.
> 
> We have already had this debate. 

When did we debate to introduce UTCtime and generalizedtime into the new
attribute? I must have missed that? As far as I remember the only
debate was whether we need at all a specifiction with seconds.

You answered to Peter Gutman's comment ...
  >The proposal isn't so much limiting as... bizarre.  The ASN.1 time formats
  >have been around forever. everything supports them, and this proposal is for a
  >format that isn't even as "flexible" as the not-very-flexible UTCTime.  What
  >real problem is this addressing?  Why a time_t?  Why not a 64-bit time to keep
  >the Java guys happy?  Or the Windows nanoseconds-since-1600 time?  Or the
  >Macintosh seconds-since 1904?  You could make it a choice, so no-one would
  >feel left out, with at least one of the choices being an identified-by-OID
  >value so everyone could add their own favourite oddball format...

with : 
  Any of these is possible, but a choice defeats the whole point, which is to 
  avoid complex conversion.

And now you add a choice, and, furthermore, values that you qualify
as more difficult to handle.

>                                   At least two people see potential value 
'A potential value'? I have not seen anything concrete except 

   There are no existing applications in this space, and 
   thus no backwards compatibilty issues.  But CMS  and a newly defined 
   attribute can be applied to future applications without having any 
   impact on existing apps.


> in the BinaryTime.  Clearly there is not a ground swell of support.  This 
> is the reason that the "Status of this Memo" section indicates that this 
> will become an Experimental RFC.  In this way, we can find out if there is 
> any value from implementations.  If no implementations emerge, then we can 
> let it drop.  On the other hand, if implementors find it useful, then a 
> standards-track RFC can follow later.


First of all, the IESG has something to say here. So please don't say 
'it will become'.  

Becoming experimental requires that the IESG determines whether the protocol
is not in conflict with some existing text. At least, with the new text,
this seems clearly the case to me, i.e., in conflict with almost everything
that can be told about the existing attribute, and any of the supposed
benefits seem wrong to me. 

At least, I think the IESG should add some appropriate wording to
explain whether of not the text is in conflict with exsiting standardisation
work. 

> >But I'll address the statements of the text (a second time).
> >
> >1.1  BinaryTime
> >
> >    Many operating systems represent date and time as an integer.  This
> >    document specifies an ASN.1 type for representing a date and time in
> >    a manner that is compatible with these operating systems.  This
> >    approach has several advantages over the UTCTime and GeneralizedTime
> >    types.
> >
> >Not many systems represent data and time in BER as far as I remember.
> 
> I do not understand this comment.  The quoted text says that operating 
> systems use an integer, not a character string.  BER (or other encoding) is 
> going to be applied in either case.  This is essential to resolve endian 
> issues at a minimum.

An integer encoded in BER is AFAIK not the way to encode seconds on
on any known system. (I have even forgotten x-endian stuff.). 

> >    First, a BinaryTime value is smaller than either a UTCTime or a
> >    GeneralizedTime value.
> >
> >True, but very weak conpared to the size of the document, ...
> >
> >    Second, in many operating systems, the value can be used without
> >    conversion.  The operating systems that do require conversion can do
> >    so with straightforward computation.
> >
> >You need at least some conversion from a BER encoded variable length
> >integer to some value. You don't any indication why you want to compare
> >the date with some local integer value?
> 
> Many values can use used directly.  If the endian ordering is different on 
> a particular system, then straightforward manipulation is needed.  If the 
> epoch is different, addition or subtraction is needed to compensate.  If 
> the granularity is something other than seconds, then multiplication or 
> division is needed to compensate.  To me, these are "straightforward 
> computation."

To summarize: 

   - variable length encoding
   - endian
   - substraction or addition,
   - multiplications on IBM 3x0 series.
   
This seems to me at least as straightforward as a few multiplications fo 
a character string based, no variable length, no endian issue,
an addition/substraction for UTCTime. ... 

> I can state all of this if you like:
> 
>     Second, in many operating systems, the value can be used without
>     conversion.  The operating systems that do require conversion can do
>     so with straightforward computation.  If the endian ordering is different
>     than the ASN.1 representation of an INTEGER, then straightforward
>     manipulation is needed.  If the epoch is different than the one chosen
>     for BinaryTime, addition or subtraction is needed to compensate.  If the
>     granularity is something other than seconds, then multiplication or
>     division is needed to compensate.  Also, padding may be needed
>     convert the variable length ASN.1 encoding of INTEGER to a fixed
>     length value used in the operating system.

Tell me any operating system where the value can be used without any
small treatment. See also the comments about internal formats from P.G.
concerning the word 'many'. 
 
> 
> Comparison of a date/time value in a protocol to the current time from the 
> operating system seems very obvious to me.

And that comparison should lead to what result? The signature is too old,
not yet valid? What application are you thinking about? secure NTP?

 
> >As far as I remember, date comparisions have to be made in case
> >if you want to check certificates. In this case, the logic to
> >convert a local time value to an Generalizedtime already exists
> >on the machine. Of course, if you assume that no certs are used
> >at all, ... then you might still save more octets by reducing
> >the SignerInfo structure.
> 
> The certificates and crls are optional in SignerInfo.  The SignedData sid 
> field can be used to identify a public key that is not embedded in a 
> certificate, such as a trust anchor.

Indeed, this case is a one where Signeddata have GeneralizedTime (unless
I have overseen something). Well, the type is also proposed for
Authenticated-data, and somewhere in the the key exchange info you
have date in generalizedTime, but this is probaly never used at all here.
 
> >    Third, date comparison is very easy with BinaryTime.  Integer
> >    comparison is easy, even when multi-precision integers are involved.
> >    Date comparison with UTCTime or GeneralizedTime can be complex when
> >    the two values to be compared are provided in different time zones.
> >
> >There are no time zones involved in the signingTime attribute.
> >One change in RFC 3369 vs 2630 to uppercase the MUST.
> 
> Signing-time is not the only possible use of BinaryTime.  It is the one 
> specified in the document.  However, if the ASN.1 type is useful, then it 
> will start appearing in other places.  This would be an indication that the 
> Experimental RFC is useful.

You don't address what I have said. You indicate that time zone
comparisons are difficult, but they do not even occur within the
existing signingTime attribute. 

 
> >  String comparison is as easy as integer comparison.
> >
> >In 25 years, time definitions of 32 bit machines may become difficult
> >to compare with an integer. Nothing guarantees you that the local
> >time definitions with simply shift or else.
> 
> I think this is addressed by my proposed text above.

Yes, which makes the logic as "complex" as for the existing character
encodings IMO. 

> 
> >The textual representation of generalizedtime in zulu holmds at least
> >a few years more, and beyond 9999 there is already an RFC :-)
> 
> The integer representation will not have trouble in 10000 ;-)
> 
> >    This is a rare instance where both memory and processor cycles are
> >    saved.
> >
> >Processor cycles are not saved, since soon, i.e. in about 25 years,
> >you have to check whether you are beyond epoch, etc. So may need
> >at least some (almso rather simple) logic as with the adjustments
> >of UTCTime.
> 
> I do not see this one.  Some operating systems already use int64 to 
> represent time.

Paddings, endians conversion, etc, all need time. 

> >Or, to resume: the only arguments that I can see is to save a few octets.
> >If you want to do this, code in PER for example.
> 
> PER of the character string will not reduce it to 4 or 5 octets.

I was thinking of PER for the whole signedData, or some completely
different format removing all unnecessary tags, ecapsulations etc. 


> >5  Security Considerations
> >
> >    This specification does not introduce any new security considerations
> >    beyond those already discussed in [CMS].
> >
> >CMS has no security considerations concerning the signingTime attribute.
> >Anyway, in the following you are doing quite the contrary, i.e., you
> >add new considerations.
> 
> Okay.  This is not the point I wanted to make, but I can see how you can 
> interpret it that way.  I'll delete the paragraph.
> 
> >    Use of the updated signing-time attribute does not necessarily
> >    provide confidence in the time that the signature value was produced.
> >    Therefore, acceptance of a purported signing time is a matter of a
> >    recipient's discretion.  RFC 3161 [TSP] specifies a protocol for
> >    obtaining time stamps from a trusted entity.
> >
> >    The original signing-time attribute defined in [CMS] has the same
> >    semantics as the updated signing-time attribute specified in this
> >    document.  If both of these attributes are present, they SHOULD
> >
> >SHOULD assumes that unless good reasons the data should be identical,
> >or, that a client should perform a comparison? If you don't assume
> >any work to be done by the client, you should mention that nothing
> >can be said about the two values.
> >
> >    provide the same date and time.
> >
> >At least, if both are present, the only vaguely valid argument about
> >savings of space vanished, and cpu cycles are also necessary to skip
> >or parse.
> >
> >RFC 3369 has a lot of text saying that ther must only be one occurence
> >of the signingTime attribuet and only one value.
> >
> >With this new specification you now add a second occurence. Does this
> >mean that you consider the existing 3369 spec is too strong?
> 
> No.  I was trying to accommodate a situation where the signature would be 
> checked by two recipients, one that prefers signing-time and one that 
> prefers signing-time2.  I cannot see a better way to handle this situation.

At least, as Peter Gutmann says: you have lost all the space gain as the other Peter
told, implementations would prbably need to add the two attributes.  

Is there a particular reason for the SHOULD in the following? 

   The original signing-time attribute defined in [CMS] has the same
   semantics as the updated signing-time attribute specified in this
   document.  If both of these attributes are present, they SHOULD
   provide the same date and time.

Peter
 



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Subject: Re: Static vs Dynamic sMIMECapabilities draft(s)
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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
  <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1">
  <title></title>
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<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
If I'm not there at the pkiops BOF somebody make sure to bring this up!<br>
<br>
Tony Capel wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid001601c4973c$1b00b680$01b5a8c0@tony">
  <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; ">
  <title>Message</title>
  <meta content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2180" name="GENERATOR">
  <div><span class="824152313-10092004"><font face="Arial"
 color="#0000ff" size="2">Sean:</font></span></div>
  <div>&nbsp;</div>
  <div><span class="824152313-10092004"><font face="Arial"
 color="#0000ff" size="2">I have&nbsp;no problem with this approach,
(although even when specified as "optional" many CA vendors may feel
obliged to implement it - potentially complete with "silent
revocation/renewal").</font></span></div>
  <div>&nbsp;</div>
  <div><span class="824152313-10092004"><font face="Arial"
 color="#0000ff" size="2">I fully agree with your comments
about&nbsp;potential "dynamic" approach(s).&nbsp; </font></span><span
 class="824152313-10092004"><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff" size="2">Possibly
one feedforward to the pkiops BOF is that whatever "ways to make
certificate use and deployment easy" should keep in mind (if not
already)&nbsp;that some applications (e.g. smime) may have other information
(sMIMECapabilities) that needs to be distributed (in attribute certs or
otherwise) as well as just the pki certs.&nbsp;</font></span></div>
  <div>&nbsp;</div>
  <div><span class="824152313-10092004"><font face="Arial"
 color="#0000ff" size="2">Tony</font></span></div>
  <blockquote dir="ltr"
 style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
    <div class="OutlookMessageHeader" lang="en-us" dir="ltr"
 align="left"><font face="Tahoma" size="2">-----Original Message-----<br>
    <b>From:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org">owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org">mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Sean P.
Turner<br>
    <b>Sent:</b> September 9, 2004 9:30 AM<br>
    <b>To:</b> Stefan Santesson; Tony Capel<br>
    <b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ietf-smime@imc.org">ietf-smime@imc.org</a><br>
    <b>Subject:</b> Static vs Dynamic sMIMECapabilities draft(s)<br>
    <br>
    </font></div>
All,<br>
    <br>
After following the discussion, I think we ought to have two drafts:
one for the "static" capability and one for the "dynamic" capability.&nbsp;
I base this on the time frame necessary to complete the "static" draft,
which is pretty much documenting the security considerations (ala
Dennis's comments), compared to the "dynamic" draft, which is pretty
much still on the white board.&nbsp; If another draft is produced that
documents the "dynamic" capability, the WG will discuss it as we are
discussing the "static" case.&nbsp;&nbsp; My only caution is that I don't want
the "dynamic" draft to define ways to distribute certificates that's
already covered by PKIX, LDAP, and DNS specifications. Further, if
people think that those specifications are too hard there's going to be
pkiops BOF in Washington that is supposed to start looking at "ways to
make certificate use and deployment easy."&nbsp; I hate to have two ways to
do the same thing but they're supporting different requirements (static
vs dynamic) and they're both optional to implement so I can see why
it's okay to have them in separate drafts.&nbsp; <br>
    <br>
spt<br>
    <br>
Stefan Santesson wrote:<br>
    <blockquote
 cite="mid0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D01359C21@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com"
 type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Tony,

I'm sorry, but I can't get away from the fact that I believe that you
oversimplify this issue.

Even if you do get passed the format issue by using a null signed
message I see an immediate problem in sorting out WHO is the signer of
the null signed message.

If you force the certified subject to be the signer (which you probably
need to if it is to work according to existing principles) then the
solution will be practically useless since you loose the ability to
automate the process to generate and distribute capabilities.

If you let the certificate issuer sign the null signed message on behalf
of the subject, then you probably need to define how you specify in the
message who's capabilities that are defined in the message and now we
have opened the can of worms for other options and variants as well.

And then you still need to define a new extension to point to this data.

Another problem is storage location and its automation. CRL is easily
configurable in a system because one CA has a limited set of CRLs to
produce (mostly only one) but here we have a concept where you store at
least one object per subject, and maybe many. And this makes
implementation far more complex than CRL storage and may include aspects
such as directory schema expansion and innovation to manage users with
renewed certs or multiple valid certs.

Comparing with CRLs are probably not that good to prove your point since
CRLs actually are enormously complex if you study all options with
segmented scope, indirect CRLs, delta CRLs, Revocation reasons,
revocation or hold status, invalidity dates and renewal frequencies,
etc..... A perfect example how the task to specify a signed list of
serial numbers expanded to Goliat's proportions.

The current draft doesn't require any new object identifiers; it is just
making use of an already defined data structure for sMIMECapabilities to
be used as certificate extension. Easy and simple!

I want to repeat that I'm NOT principally opposed towards discussing
good innovative solutions to solve dynamic capabilities expression, but
I still claim that it is too complex to mix with this simple spec, which
should be done before end of this year.

There is no reason why we need to cover dynamic capabilities in the same
RFC. You can't use the same extension format anyway since the format of
the current spec use the already established structure for the
sMIMECapabilities attribute. This can't be changed to include links to
dynamic data. You need to do that in a new extension anyway.

If this WG wants to do dynamic capabilities of certificates it is
perfectly OK to do that in a separate RFC.

And I'm not the guy to lead that effort.

Maybe you are? :-)

Stefan Santesson
Microsoft Security Center of Excellence (SCOE)
 

  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Capel [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
 href="mailto:capel@comgate.com">mailto:capel@comgate.com</a>]
Sent: den 3 september 2004 22:18
To: Stefan Santesson; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
 href="mailto:ietf-smime@imc.org">ietf-smime@imc.org</a>
Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt

Stefan:

I fully understand your reluctance (which I share) for proliferation
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->of
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">scope.
Please bear with me.

Your proposal requires an extension to the X.509 certificate syntax,
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->and
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">it
seems you have preliminary agreement from PKIX that S/MIME WG can do
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->that.
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">This
is very good (and I am humbled by your ability to do that!), but we
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->should
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">make
sure we exploit this opportunity well, so we do not have to return to
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->the
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">well
too often ;-).  To do that we need to consider what is quick and
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->simple to
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">do
today and also where we might go.  So I think this discussion now is
valuable.

I cannot agree that this is complex, although I agree it CAN be made
complex as
you demonstrate.

The model here is the CRLDistribution point (with all its warts).
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->Those
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">guys
did not worry about whether the CRL would be available by LDAP, HTTP,
SMTP, or
whatever when they defined it.  They only worried about what the CRL
format was
to be.  In our case I propose we already have a format:  a null signed
message.
Maybe Denis will suggest an attribute certificate - but that can be
carried in a
null signed message too.  I suspect that if I posted a null signed
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->message
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">on a
website (and configured the HTTP content type correctly) it might even
work
today (??).  And frankly, if an organization is already distributing
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->CRL's
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">by
whatever method, allowing the same infrastructure to be used to
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->provide
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">sMIMECapabilities in a null signed message is not much more work (and
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->it
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">will
also provide the full cert path, attribute certs, etc. if needed!).
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->The
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">server
just responds with a static null signed item.  Processing on receipt
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->is
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">the same
as the processing already implemented for incoming signed messages.


I think there is a danger if we only propose to PKIX (and X.509) folks
that the
only way we can solve the sMIMECapabilities "problem" is just to stick
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->all
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">the
sMIMECapabilities into the cert.  I think we will get a negative
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->reaction.
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">If
it is one option where there are other options which are a bit more
efficient,
we have a better chance.  I have also mentioned that we should make
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->the
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">extension more application-agnostic, I think this will also make it
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->more
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">palatable, but that's another thread....

Tony


| -----Original Message-----
| From: Stefan Santesson [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
 href="mailto:stefans@microsoft.com">mailto:stefans@microsoft.com</a>]
| Sent: September 3, 2004 1:58 PM
| To: Tony Capel; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
 href="mailto:ietf-smime@imc.org">ietf-smime@imc.org</a>
| Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
|
|
| Tony,
|
| Yes it looks like a small cute thing doesn't it. Dynamic
| sMIMECapabilities!
|
| Well, I'm damaged by experience and I can really see this
| take off in a million directions.
|
| First you will have the issue to sort out in what format and
| structure you want to handle the data, meta data, signatures
| etc for the dynamic capabilities, then you need to sort out
| how you will structure the extension referring to this data
| in certificates, and then also sort out what schemas can and
| cannot be used to obtain the data, whether it is http, https,
| ldap, ftp.
|
| Then we have already heard voices that we might need to
| distinguish between capabilities for different applications
| and then we need to define how we identify applications. Why
| not then argue about how this data should be signed and if
| there might be a reason to let different entities sign
| different parts of the capabilities data.
|
| Then we can discuss how we would refer to the certificates
| used to validate signatures on these signatures and what we
| must do to allow dynamic linking to certificates in case some
| certificates gets revoked or renewed.
|
| And I have yet not even touched the aspect of attribute
| certificates whether they will be or not be, and how that
| would be if it is....
|
| I can't prove that this will take time but I'm willing to
| make a bet:-)
|
| What I say is that we should not hold back the simple and
| straight forward use of an existing, well defined data structure.
|
| If this WG whish to solve dynamic access to authenticated
| application oriented sMIMECapabilities, then it deserves it
| own project.
|
| /Stefan
|
| &gt; -----Original Message-----
| &gt; From: Tony Capel [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
 href="mailto:capel@comgate.com">mailto:capel@comgate.com</a>]
| &gt; Sent: den 3 september 2004 17:42
| &gt; To: Stefan Santesson; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
 href="mailto:ietf-smime@imc.org">ietf-smime@imc.org</a>
| &gt; Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
| &gt;
| &gt; Stefan:
| &gt;
| &gt; Thanks.  I don't think this is such a big suggestion.
| &gt;
| &gt; | [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however not a
| &gt; | marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication of
| &gt; | complexity.
| &gt; |
| &gt; | sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you introduce
| &gt; | storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify the
| framework for
| &gt; | how that data would be authenticated. That is NOT a small thing.
| &gt;
| &gt; This does not require the server to create authenticated
| data on-line,
| the
| &gt; returned data can be static (i.e. pre-signed by the CA or
| end entity,
| or
| &gt; an
| &gt; attribute cert as suggested by Denis).  There is no difference in
| &gt; authentication framework complexity than if this data were
| put in the
| &gt; cert itself. Whoever (CA
| &gt; or end entity ...) agrees that this is the list, they can create
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->and
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">| sign
| &gt; the
| &gt; null message or attribute cert at that time.  This fixed
| item is then
| &gt; stored in whatever server is used.  It is only changed when the
| sMIMECapabilities
| &gt; are
| &gt; changed (or when the signing keys change of course).
| &gt;
| &gt;
| &gt; I believe Jim's objective in "Certificate Distribution
| Specification"
| &gt; draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt, was to create something to be
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->used
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">| to
| &gt; distribute certificates AND sMIMECapabilities.  It also raises the
| issue
| &gt; of
| &gt; whether there needs to be a secure binding between the
| sMIMECapabilities
| &gt; and the
| &gt; specific certificate instance(s)* (and not just a binding between
| &gt; sMIMECapabilities and the subjectName).
| &gt;
| &gt; A bit more discussion of attribute certificates might be in order
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->as
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">| well.
| &gt;
| &gt;
| &gt; Tony
| &gt;
| &gt;
| &gt; * I don't believe this is done in CMS/MSG implementations at the
| moment.
| &gt; I
| &gt; don't believe implementers have been told to retain any such
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->binding
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">| even
| &gt; if
| &gt; they had it - I suspect the sMIMECapabilities when cached by end
| systems
| &gt; is not
| &gt; retained in signed form - and there is no cert hash to bind it to
| specific
| &gt; cert(s) (more complicated for dual keypair).  sMIMECapabilities
    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->are
  </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">| &gt; probably cached under subjectName (???).  Your proposed method
| &gt; inherently
| securely
| &gt; binds
| &gt; the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert and this
| is a NICE
| &gt; THING, but I am not sure it is needed.  If it is, then additional
| &gt; considerations
| are
| &gt; needed
| &gt; for indirect methods if they are added as suggested.
| &gt;
|
|

    </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap=""><!---->


  </pre>
    </blockquote>
  </blockquote>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>




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To: Peter Sylvester <Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr>
From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
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Peter:

>I think you have misunderstood some of the remarks:
>
>The new text adds the syntax of the existing signingTime attribute
>to the new one, thus make the new one a superset.
>
>The suggestion was to add a binary time to the existing one
>(assumed that anything should be done), but certainly not to
>reintroduce the options of the existing attributes.

I think this is an unacceptable approach.  It could lead to decode errors 
in implementations that support the signing-time attribute that is defined 
in CMS.

>There is no need at all to introduce these options, they serve
>nothing at all, since the other attribute exists.

We have already had this debate.  At least two people see potential value 
in the BinaryTime.  Clearly there is not a ground swell of support.  This 
is the reason that the "Status of this Memo" section indicates that this 
will become an Experimental RFC.  In this way, we can find out if there is 
any value from implementations.  If no implementations emerge, then we can 
let it drop.  On the other hand, if implementors find it useful, then a 
standards-track RFC can follow later.

>But I'll address the statements of the text (a second time).
>
>1.1  BinaryTime
>
>    Many operating systems represent date and time as an integer.  This
>    document specifies an ASN.1 type for representing a date and time in
>    a manner that is compatible with these operating systems.  This
>    approach has several advantages over the UTCTime and GeneralizedTime
>    types.
>
>Not many systems represent data and time in BER as far as I remember.

I do not understand this comment.  The quoted text says that operating 
systems use an integer, not a character string.  BER (or other encoding) is 
going to be applied in either case.  This is essential to resolve endian 
issues at a minimum.

>    First, a BinaryTime value is smaller than either a UTCTime or a
>    GeneralizedTime value.
>
>True, but very weak conpared to the size of the document, ...
>
>    Second, in many operating systems, the value can be used without
>    conversion.  The operating systems that do require conversion can do
>    so with straightforward computation.
>
>You need at least some conversion from a BER encoded variable length
>integer to some value. You don't any indication why you want to compare
>the date with some local integer value?

Many values can use used directly.  If the endian ordering is different on 
a particular system, then straightforward manipulation is needed.  If the 
epoch is different, addition or subtraction is needed to compensate.  If 
the granularity is something other than seconds, then multiplication or 
division is needed to compensate.  To me, these are "straightforward 
computation."

I can state all of this if you like:

    Second, in many operating systems, the value can be used without
    conversion.  The operating systems that do require conversion can do
    so with straightforward computation.  If the endian ordering is different
    than the ASN.1 representation of an INTEGER, then straightforward
    manipulation is needed.  If the epoch is different than the one chosen
    for BinaryTime, addition or subtraction is needed to compensate.  If the
    granularity is something other than seconds, then multiplication or
    division is needed to compensate.  Also, padding may be needed
    convert the variable length ASN.1 encoding of INTEGER to a fixed
    length value used in the operating system.

Comparison of a date/time value in a protocol to the current time from the 
operating system seems very obvious to me.

>As far as I remember, date comparisions have to be made in case
>if you want to check certificates. In this case, the logic to
>convert a local time value to an Generalizedtime already exists
>on the machine. Of course, if you assume that no certs are used
>at all, ... then you might still save more octets by reducing
>the SignerInfo structure.

The certificates and crls are optional in SignerInfo.  The SignedData sid 
field can be used to identify a public key that is not embedded in a 
certificate, such as a trust anchor.

>    Third, date comparison is very easy with BinaryTime.  Integer
>    comparison is easy, even when multi-precision integers are involved.
>    Date comparison with UTCTime or GeneralizedTime can be complex when
>    the two values to be compared are provided in different time zones.
>
>There are no time zones involved in the signingTime attribute.
>One change in RFC 3369 vs 2630 to uppercase the MUST.

Signing-time is not the only possible use of BinaryTime.  It is the one 
specified in the document.  However, if the ASN.1 type is useful, then it 
will start appearing in other places.  This would be an indication that the 
Experimental RFC is useful.

>  String comparison is as easy as integer comparison.
>
>In 25 years, time definitions of 32 bit machines may become difficult
>to compare with an integer. Nothing guarantees you that the local
>time definitions with simply shift or else.

I think this is addressed by my proposed text above.

>The textual representation of generalizedtime in zulu holmds at least
>a few years more, and beyond 9999 there is already an RFC :-)

The integer representation will not have trouble in 10000 ;-)

>    This is a rare instance where both memory and processor cycles are
>    saved.
>
>Processor cycles are not saved, since soon, i.e. in about 25 years,
>you have to check whether you are beyond epoch, etc. So may need
>at least some (almso rather simple) logic as with the adjustments
>of UTCTime.

I do not see this one.  Some operating systems already use int64 to 
represent time.

>Or, to resume: the only arguments that I can see is to save a few octets.
>If you want to do this, code in PER for example.

PER of the character string will not reduce it to 4 or 5 octets.

>5  Security Considerations
>
>    This specification does not introduce any new security considerations
>    beyond those already discussed in [CMS].
>
>CMS has no security considerations concerning the signingTime attribute.
>Anyway, in the following you are doing quite the contrary, i.e., you
>add new considerations.

Okay.  This is not the point I wanted to make, but I can see how you can 
interpret it that way.  I'll delete the paragraph.

>    Use of the updated signing-time attribute does not necessarily
>    provide confidence in the time that the signature value was produced.
>    Therefore, acceptance of a purported signing time is a matter of a
>    recipient's discretion.  RFC 3161 [TSP] specifies a protocol for
>    obtaining time stamps from a trusted entity.
>
>    The original signing-time attribute defined in [CMS] has the same
>    semantics as the updated signing-time attribute specified in this
>    document.  If both of these attributes are present, they SHOULD
>
>SHOULD assumes that unless good reasons the data should be identical,
>or, that a client should perform a comparison? If you don't assume
>any work to be done by the client, you should mention that nothing
>can be said about the two values.
>
>    provide the same date and time.
>
>At least, if both are present, the only vaguely valid argument about
>savings of space vanished, and cpu cycles are also necessary to skip
>or parse.
>
>RFC 3369 has a lot of text saying that ther must only be one occurence
>of the signingTime attribuet and only one value.
>
>With this new specification you now add a second occurence. Does this
>mean that you consider the existing 3369 spec is too strong?

No.  I was trying to accommodate a situation where the signature would be 
checked by two recipients, one that prefers signing-time and one that 
prefers signing-time2.  I cannot see a better way to handle this situation.

>Does someone remember the reason why the 3369 spec says that
>all dates between 1950 and 2050 MUST be coded in UTCTime?

Yep.  That is the rule in RFC 2459.

>Is it because of existing systems or in order to have a
>canonocal form, i.e. like DER?
>With the proposed spec identical information can have two different
>signatures.

At the time, most implementations could not handle GeneralizedTime at 
all.  This technique provided a transition period.

Russ



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Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
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Russ, 

I think you have misunderstood some of the remarks:

The new text adds the syntax of the existing signingTime attribute
to the new one, thus make the new one a superset.

The suggestion was to add a binary time to the existing one
(assumed that anything should be done), but certainly not to
reintroduce the options of the existing attributes. 

There is no need at all to introduce these options, they serve
nothing at all, since the other attribute exists. 

But I'll address the statements of the text (a second time). 

1.1  BinaryTime

   Many operating systems represent date and time as an integer.  This
   document specifies an ASN.1 type for representing a date and time in
   a manner that is compatible with these operating systems.  This
   approach has several advantages over the UTCTime and GeneralizedTime
   types.

Not many systems represent data and time in BER as far as I remember.

   First, a BinaryTime value is smaller than either a UTCTime or a
   GeneralizedTime value.

True, but very weak conpared to the size of the document, ...

   Second, in many operating systems, the value can be used without
   conversion.  The operating systems that do require conversion can do
   so with straightforward computation.

You need at least some conversion from a BER encoded variable length
integer to some value. You don't any indication why you want to compare
the date with some local integer value?  

As far as I remember, date comparisions have to be made in case
if you want to check certificates. In this case, the logic to
convert a local time value to an Generalizedtime already exists
on the machine. Of course, if you assume that no certs are used
at all, ... then you might still save more octets by reducing
the SignerInfo structure.  

   Third, date comparison is very easy with BinaryTime.  Integer
   comparison is easy, even when multi-precision integers are involved.
   Date comparison with UTCTime or GeneralizedTime can be complex when
   the two values to be compared are provided in different time zones.

There are no time zones involved in the signingTime attribute.
One change in RFC 3369 vs 2630 to uppercase the MUST.
 
String comparison is as easy as integer comparison. 
 
In 25 years, time definitions of 32 bit machines may become difficult
to compare with an integer. Nothing guarantees you that the local
time definitions with simply shift or else. 

The textual representation of generalizedtime in zulu holmds at least
a few years more, and beyond 9999 there is already an RFC :-) 

   This is a rare instance where both memory and processor cycles are
   saved.

Processor cycles are not saved, since soon, i.e. in about 25 years,
you have to check whether you are beyond epoch, etc. So may need
at least some (almso rather simple) logic as with the adjustments
of UTCTime.

Or, to resume: the only arguments that I can see is to save a few octets.
If you want to do this, code in PER for example.


5  Security Considerations

   This specification does not introduce any new security considerations
   beyond those already discussed in [CMS].

CMS has no security considerations concerning the signingTime attribute.
Anyway, in the following you are doing quite the contrary, i.e., you
add new considerations. 

   Use of the updated signing-time attribute does not necessarily
   provide confidence in the time that the signature value was produced.
   Therefore, acceptance of a purported signing time is a matter of a
   recipient's discretion.  RFC 3161 [TSP] specifies a protocol for
   obtaining time stamps from a trusted entity.

   The original signing-time attribute defined in [CMS] has the same
   semantics as the updated signing-time attribute specified in this
   document.  If both of these attributes are present, they SHOULD

SHOULD assumes that unless good reasons the data should be identical,
or, that a client should perform a comparison? If you don't assume
any work to be done by the client, you should mention that nothing
can be said about the two values.

   provide the same date and time.

At least, if both are present, the only vaguely valid argument about
savings of space vanished, and cpu cycles are also necessary to skip
or parse. 

RFC 3369 has a lot of text saying that ther must only be one occurence
of the signingTime attribuet and only one value.

With this new specification you now add a second occurence. Does this
mean that you consider the existing 3369 spec is too strong? 

Does someone remember the reason why the 3369 spec says that
all dates between 1950 and 2005à MUST be coded in UTCTime? 
Is it because of existing systems or in order to have a 
canonocal form, i.e. like DER? 
With the proposed spec identical information can have two different
signatures.

Peter



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From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
To: dpkemp@missi.ncsc.mil, housley@vigilsec.com, ietf-smime@imc.org, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
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Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> writes:

>So, if it were an experimental document, you would have not issues?

Experimental would be fine.  As long as there's an indication to the masses
that there's a different degree of importance between support for
extensions/options like MessageDigest and ones like BinaryTime.

(I'd still suggest though that if space saving is the primary concern, an
 approach like the SimpleSigningAttributes one would be better, since apart
 from the 15-20 bytes *per extension* saved you could use further tweaks like
 making ContentType default to "data" (the most common case), using enums
 instead of OIDs (that is, make it a CHOICE between standard-content-type as
 an enum and OIDs for nonstandard types), etc etc etc.  Peter Sylvester's
 suggestion of packing everything in with the data is even more compact, if
 slightly less flexible).

Peter.



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From: "Tony Capel" <capel@comgate.com>
To: "'Sean P. Turner'" <turners@ieca.com>, "'Stefan Santesson'" <stefans@microsoft.com>
Cc: <ietf-smime@imc.org>
Subject: RE: Static vs Dynamic sMIMECapabilities draft(s)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:43:01 -0400
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Sean:
=20
I have no problem with this approach, (although even when specified as
"optional" many CA vendors may feel obliged to implement it - =
potentially
complete with "silent revocation/renewal").
=20
I fully agree with your comments about potential "dynamic" approach(s).
Possibly one feedforward to the pkiops BOF is that whatever "ways to =
make
certificate use and deployment easy" should keep in mind (if not =
already) that
some applications (e.g. smime) may have other information =
(sMIMECapabilities)
that needs to be distributed (in attribute certs or otherwise) as well =
as just
the pki certs.=20
=20
Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org =
[mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On
Behalf Of Sean P. Turner
Sent: September 9, 2004 9:30 AM
To: Stefan Santesson; Tony Capel
Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: Static vs Dynamic sMIMECapabilities draft(s)


All,

After following the discussion, I think we ought to have two drafts: one =
for the
"static" capability and one for the "dynamic" capability.  I base this =
on the
time frame necessary to complete the "static" draft, which is pretty =
much
documenting the security considerations (ala Dennis's comments), =
compared to the
"dynamic" draft, which is pretty much still on the white board.  If =
another
draft is produced that documents the "dynamic" capability, the WG will =
discuss
it as we are discussing the "static" case.   My only caution is that I =
don't
want the "dynamic" draft to define ways to distribute certificates =
that's
already covered by PKIX, LDAP, and DNS specifications. Further, if =
people think
that those specifications are too hard there's going to be pkiops BOF in
Washington that is supposed to start looking at "ways to make =
certificate use
and deployment easy."  I hate to have two ways to do the same thing but =
they're
supporting different requirements (static vs dynamic) and they're both =
optional
to implement so I can see why it's okay to have them in separate drafts. =
=20

spt

Stefan Santesson wrote:


Tony,



I'm sorry, but I can't get away from the fact that I believe that you

oversimplify this issue.



Even if you do get passed the format issue by using a null signed

message I see an immediate problem in sorting out WHO is the signer of

the null signed message.



If you force the certified subject to be the signer (which you probably

need to if it is to work according to existing principles) then the

solution will be practically useless since you loose the ability to

automate the process to generate and distribute capabilities.



If you let the certificate issuer sign the null signed message on behalf

of the subject, then you probably need to define how you specify in the

message who's capabilities that are defined in the message and now we

have opened the can of worms for other options and variants as well.



And then you still need to define a new extension to point to this data.



Another problem is storage location and its automation. CRL is easily

configurable in a system because one CA has a limited set of CRLs to

produce (mostly only one) but here we have a concept where you store at

least one object per subject, and maybe many. And this makes

implementation far more complex than CRL storage and may include aspects

such as directory schema expansion and innovation to manage users with

renewed certs or multiple valid certs.



Comparing with CRLs are probably not that good to prove your point since

CRLs actually are enormously complex if you study all options with

segmented scope, indirect CRLs, delta CRLs, Revocation reasons,

revocation or hold status, invalidity dates and renewal frequencies,

etc..... A perfect example how the task to specify a signed list of

serial numbers expanded to Goliat's proportions.



The current draft doesn't require any new object identifiers; it is just

making use of an already defined data structure for sMIMECapabilities to

be used as certificate extension. Easy and simple!



I want to repeat that I'm NOT principally opposed towards discussing

good innovative solutions to solve dynamic capabilities expression, but

I still claim that it is too complex to mix with this simple spec, which

should be done before end of this year.



There is no reason why we need to cover dynamic capabilities in the same

RFC. You can't use the same extension format anyway since the format of

the current spec use the already established structure for the

sMIMECapabilities attribute. This can't be changed to include links to

dynamic data. You need to do that in a new extension anyway.



If this WG wants to do dynamic capabilities of certificates it is

perfectly OK to do that in a separate RFC.



And I'm not the guy to lead that effort.



Maybe you are? :-)



Stefan Santesson

Microsoft Security Center of Excellence (SCOE)

=20



 =20

-----Original Message-----

From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com]

Sent: den 3 september 2004 22:18

To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org

Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt



Stefan:



I fully understand your reluctance (which I share) for proliferation

   =20

of

 =20

scope.

Please bear with me.



Your proposal requires an extension to the X.509 certificate syntax,

   =20

and

 =20

it

seems you have preliminary agreement from PKIX that S/MIME WG can do

   =20

that.

 =20

This

is very good (and I am humbled by your ability to do that!), but we

   =20

should

 =20

make

sure we exploit this opportunity well, so we do not have to return to

   =20

the

 =20

well

too often ;-).  To do that we need to consider what is quick and

   =20

simple to

 =20

do

today and also where we might go.  So I think this discussion now is

valuable.



I cannot agree that this is complex, although I agree it CAN be made

complex as

you demonstrate.



The model here is the CRLDistribution point (with all its warts).

   =20

Those

 =20

guys

did not worry about whether the CRL would be available by LDAP, HTTP,

SMTP, or

whatever when they defined it.  They only worried about what the CRL

format was

to be.  In our case I propose we already have a format:  a null signed

message.

Maybe Denis will suggest an attribute certificate - but that can be

carried in a

null signed message too.  I suspect that if I posted a null signed

   =20

message

 =20

on a

website (and configured the HTTP content type correctly) it might even

work

today (??).  And frankly, if an organization is already distributing

   =20

CRL's

 =20

by

whatever method, allowing the same infrastructure to be used to

   =20

provide

 =20

sMIMECapabilities in a null signed message is not much more work (and

   =20

it

 =20

will

also provide the full cert path, attribute certs, etc. if needed!).

   =20

The

 =20

server

just responds with a static null signed item.  Processing on receipt

   =20

is

 =20

the same

as the processing already implemented for incoming signed messages.





I think there is a danger if we only propose to PKIX (and X.509) folks

that the

only way we can solve the sMIMECapabilities "problem" is just to stick

   =20

all

 =20

the

sMIMECapabilities into the cert.  I think we will get a negative

   =20

reaction.

 =20

If

it is one option where there are other options which are a bit more

efficient,

we have a better chance.  I have also mentioned that we should make

   =20

the

 =20

extension more application-agnostic, I think this will also make it

   =20

more

 =20

palatable, but that's another thread....



Tony





| -----Original Message-----

| From: Stefan Santesson [mailto:stefans@microsoft.com]

| Sent: September 3, 2004 1:58 PM

| To: Tony Capel; ietf-smime@imc.org

| Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt

|

|

| Tony,

|

| Yes it looks like a small cute thing doesn't it. Dynamic

| sMIMECapabilities!

|

| Well, I'm damaged by experience and I can really see this

| take off in a million directions.

|

| First you will have the issue to sort out in what format and

| structure you want to handle the data, meta data, signatures

| etc for the dynamic capabilities, then you need to sort out

| how you will structure the extension referring to this data

| in certificates, and then also sort out what schemas can and

| cannot be used to obtain the data, whether it is http, https,

| ldap, ftp.

|

| Then we have already heard voices that we might need to

| distinguish between capabilities for different applications

| and then we need to define how we identify applications. Why

| not then argue about how this data should be signed and if

| there might be a reason to let different entities sign

| different parts of the capabilities data.

|

| Then we can discuss how we would refer to the certificates

| used to validate signatures on these signatures and what we

| must do to allow dynamic linking to certificates in case some

| certificates gets revoked or renewed.

|

| And I have yet not even touched the aspect of attribute

| certificates whether they will be or not be, and how that

| would be if it is....

|

| I can't prove that this will take time but I'm willing to

| make a bet:-)

|

| What I say is that we should not hold back the simple and

| straight forward use of an existing, well defined data structure.

|

| If this WG whish to solve dynamic access to authenticated

| application oriented sMIMECapabilities, then it deserves it

| own project.

|

| /Stefan

|

| > -----Original Message-----

| > From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com]

| > Sent: den 3 september 2004 17:42

| > To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org

| > Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt

| >

| > Stefan:

| >

| > Thanks.  I don't think this is such a big suggestion.

| >

| > | [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however not a

| > | marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication of

| > | complexity.

| > |

| > | sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you introduce

| > | storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify the

| framework for

| > | how that data would be authenticated. That is NOT a small thing.

| >

| > This does not require the server to create authenticated

| data on-line,

| the

| > returned data can be static (i.e. pre-signed by the CA or

| end entity,

| or

| > an

| > attribute cert as suggested by Denis).  There is no difference in

| > authentication framework complexity than if this data were

| put in the

| > cert itself. Whoever (CA

| > or end entity ...) agrees that this is the list, they can create

   =20

and

 =20

| sign

| > the

| > null message or attribute cert at that time.  This fixed

| item is then

| > stored in whatever server is used.  It is only changed when the

| sMIMECapabilities

| > are

| > changed (or when the signing keys change of course).

| >

| >

| > I believe Jim's objective in "Certificate Distribution

| Specification"

| > draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt, was to create something to be

   =20

used

 =20

| to

| > distribute certificates AND sMIMECapabilities.  It also raises the

| issue

| > of

| > whether there needs to be a secure binding between the

| sMIMECapabilities

| > and the

| > specific certificate instance(s)* (and not just a binding between

| > sMIMECapabilities and the subjectName).

| >

| > A bit more discussion of attribute certificates might be in order

   =20

as

 =20

| well.

| >

| >

| > Tony

| >

| >

| > * I don't believe this is done in CMS/MSG implementations at the

| moment.

| > I

| > don't believe implementers have been told to retain any such

   =20

binding

 =20

| even

| > if

| > they had it - I suspect the sMIMECapabilities when cached by end

| systems

| > is not

| > retained in signed form - and there is no cert hash to bind it to

| specific

| > cert(s) (more complicated for dual keypair).  sMIMECapabilities

   =20

are

 =20

| > probably cached under subjectName (???).  Your proposed method

| > inherently

| securely

| > binds

| > the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert and this

| is a NICE

| > THING, but I am not sure it is needed.  If it is, then additional

| > considerations

| are

| > needed

| > for indirect methods if they are added as suggested.

| >

|

|



   =20







 =20


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<BODY text=3D#000000 bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D824152313-10092004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Sean:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D824152313-10092004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D824152313-10092004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I=20
have&nbsp;no problem with this approach, (although even when specified =
as=20
"optional" many CA vendors may feel obliged to implement it - =
potentially=20
complete with "silent revocation/renewal").</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D824152313-10092004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D824152313-10092004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I=20
fully agree with your comments about&nbsp;potential "dynamic" =
approach(s).&nbsp;=20
</FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=3D824152313-10092004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Possibly one feedforward to the pkiops BOF is that whatever =
"ways to make=20
certificate use and deployment easy" should keep in mind (if not=20
already)&nbsp;that some applications (e.g. smime) may have other =
information=20
(sMIMECapabilities) that needs to be distributed (in attribute certs or=20
otherwise) as well as just the pki certs.&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D824152313-10092004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Tony</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
  face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
  owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] =
<B>On=20
  Behalf Of </B>Sean P. Turner<BR><B>Sent:</B> September 9, 2004 9:30=20
  AM<BR><B>To:</B> Stefan Santesson; Tony Capel<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
  ietf-smime@imc.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Static vs Dynamic =
sMIMECapabilities=20
  draft(s)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>All,<BR><BR>After following the =
discussion, I=20
  think we ought to have two drafts: one for the "static" capability and =
one for=20
  the "dynamic" capability.&nbsp; I base this on the time frame =
necessary to=20
  complete the "static" draft, which is pretty much documenting the =
security=20
  considerations (ala Dennis's comments), compared to the "dynamic" =
draft, which=20
  is pretty much still on the white board.&nbsp; If another draft is =
produced=20
  that documents the "dynamic" capability, the WG will discuss it as we =
are=20
  discussing the "static" case.&nbsp;&nbsp; My only caution is that I =
don't want=20
  the "dynamic" draft to define ways to distribute certificates that's =
already=20
  covered by PKIX, LDAP, and DNS specifications. Further, if people =
think that=20
  those specifications are too hard there's going to be pkiops BOF in =
Washington=20
  that is supposed to start looking at "ways to make certificate use and =

  deployment easy."&nbsp; I hate to have two ways to do the same thing =
but=20
  they're supporting different requirements (static vs dynamic) and =
they're both=20
  optional to implement so I can see why it's okay to have them in =
separate=20
  drafts.&nbsp; <BR><BR>spt<BR><BR>Stefan Santesson wrote:<BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  =
cite=3Dmid0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D01359C21@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp=
.microsoft.com=20
  type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">Tony,

I'm sorry, but I can't get away from the fact that I believe that you
oversimplify this issue.

Even if you do get passed the format issue by using a null signed
message I see an immediate problem in sorting out WHO is the signer of
the null signed message.

If you force the certified subject to be the signer (which you probably
need to if it is to work according to existing principles) then the
solution will be practically useless since you loose the ability to
automate the process to generate and distribute capabilities.

If you let the certificate issuer sign the null signed message on behalf
of the subject, then you probably need to define how you specify in the
message who's capabilities that are defined in the message and now we
have opened the can of worms for other options and variants as well.

And then you still need to define a new extension to point to this data.

Another problem is storage location and its automation. CRL is easily
configurable in a system because one CA has a limited set of CRLs to
produce (mostly only one) but here we have a concept where you store at
least one object per subject, and maybe many. And this makes
implementation far more complex than CRL storage and may include aspects
such as directory schema expansion and innovation to manage users with
renewed certs or multiple valid certs.

Comparing with CRLs are probably not that good to prove your point since
CRLs actually are enormously complex if you study all options with
segmented scope, indirect CRLs, delta CRLs, Revocation reasons,
revocation or hold status, invalidity dates and renewal frequencies,
etc..... A perfect example how the task to specify a signed list of
serial numbers expanded to Goliat's proportions.

The current draft doesn't require any new object identifiers; it is just
making use of an already defined data structure for sMIMECapabilities to
be used as certificate extension. Easy and simple!

I want to repeat that I'm NOT principally opposed towards discussing
good innovative solutions to solve dynamic capabilities expression, but
I still claim that it is too complex to mix with this simple spec, which
should be done before end of this year.

There is no reason why we need to cover dynamic capabilities in the same
RFC. You can't use the same extension format anyway since the format of
the current spec use the already established structure for the
sMIMECapabilities attribute. This can't be changed to include links to
dynamic data. You need to do that in a new extension anyway.

If this WG wants to do dynamic capabilities of certificates it is
perfectly OK to do that in a separate RFC.

And I'm not the guy to lead that effort.

Maybe you are? :-)

Stefan Santesson
Microsoft Security Center of Excellence (SCOE)
=20

  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Capel [<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext =
href=3D"mailto:capel@comgate.com">mailto:capel@comgate.com</A>]
Sent: den 3 september 2004 22:18
To: Stefan Santesson; <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-abbreviated =
href=3D"mailto:ietf-smime@imc.org">ietf-smime@imc.org</A>
Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt

Stefan:

I fully understand your reluctance (which I share) for proliferation
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->of
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">scope.
Please bear with me.

Your proposal requires an extension to the X.509 certificate syntax,
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->and
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">it
seems you have preliminary agreement from PKIX that S/MIME WG can do
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->that.
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">This
is very good (and I am humbled by your ability to do that!), but we
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->should
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">make
sure we exploit this opportunity well, so we do not have to return to
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->the
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">well
too often ;-).  To do that we need to consider what is quick and
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->simple to
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">do
today and also where we might go.  So I think this discussion now is
valuable.

I cannot agree that this is complex, although I agree it CAN be made
complex as
you demonstrate.

The model here is the CRLDistribution point (with all its warts).
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->Those
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">guys
did not worry about whether the CRL would be available by LDAP, HTTP,
SMTP, or
whatever when they defined it.  They only worried about what the CRL
format was
to be.  In our case I propose we already have a format:  a null signed
message.
Maybe Denis will suggest an attribute certificate - but that can be
carried in a
null signed message too.  I suspect that if I posted a null signed
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->message
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">on a
website (and configured the HTTP content type correctly) it might even
work
today (??).  And frankly, if an organization is already distributing
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->CRL's
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">by
whatever method, allowing the same infrastructure to be used to
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->provide
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">sMIMECapabilities in a null =
signed message is not much more work (and
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->it
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">will
also provide the full cert path, attribute certs, etc. if needed!).
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->The
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">server
just responds with a static null signed item.  Processing on receipt
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->is
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">the same
as the processing already implemented for incoming signed messages.


I think there is a danger if we only propose to PKIX (and X.509) folks
that the
only way we can solve the sMIMECapabilities "problem" is just to stick
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->all
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">the
sMIMECapabilities into the cert.  I think we will get a negative
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->reaction.
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">If
it is one option where there are other options which are a bit more
efficient,
we have a better chance.  I have also mentioned that we should make
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->the
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">extension more =
application-agnostic, I think this will also make it
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->more
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">palatable, but that's =
another thread....

Tony


| -----Original Message-----
| From: Stefan Santesson [<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext =
href=3D"mailto:stefans@microsoft.com">mailto:stefans@microsoft.com</A>]
| Sent: September 3, 2004 1:58 PM
| To: Tony Capel; <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-abbreviated =
href=3D"mailto:ietf-smime@imc.org">ietf-smime@imc.org</A>
| Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
|
|
| Tony,
|
| Yes it looks like a small cute thing doesn't it. Dynamic
| sMIMECapabilities!
|
| Well, I'm damaged by experience and I can really see this
| take off in a million directions.
|
| First you will have the issue to sort out in what format and
| structure you want to handle the data, meta data, signatures
| etc for the dynamic capabilities, then you need to sort out
| how you will structure the extension referring to this data
| in certificates, and then also sort out what schemas can and
| cannot be used to obtain the data, whether it is http, https,
| ldap, ftp.
|
| Then we have already heard voices that we might need to
| distinguish between capabilities for different applications
| and then we need to define how we identify applications. Why
| not then argue about how this data should be signed and if
| there might be a reason to let different entities sign
| different parts of the capabilities data.
|
| Then we can discuss how we would refer to the certificates
| used to validate signatures on these signatures and what we
| must do to allow dynamic linking to certificates in case some
| certificates gets revoked or renewed.
|
| And I have yet not even touched the aspect of attribute
| certificates whether they will be or not be, and how that
| would be if it is....
|
| I can't prove that this will take time but I'm willing to
| make a bet:-)
|
| What I say is that we should not hold back the simple and
| straight forward use of an existing, well defined data structure.
|
| If this WG whish to solve dynamic access to authenticated
| application oriented sMIMECapabilities, then it deserves it
| own project.
|
| /Stefan
|
| &gt; -----Original Message-----
| &gt; From: Tony Capel [<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext =
href=3D"mailto:capel@comgate.com">mailto:capel@comgate.com</A>]
| &gt; Sent: den 3 september 2004 17:42
| &gt; To: Stefan Santesson; <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-abbreviated =
href=3D"mailto:ietf-smime@imc.org">ietf-smime@imc.org</A>
| &gt; Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
| &gt;
| &gt; Stefan:
| &gt;
| &gt; Thanks.  I don't think this is such a big suggestion.
| &gt;
| &gt; | [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however not =
a
| &gt; | marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication of
| &gt; | complexity.
| &gt; |
| &gt; | sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you introduce
| &gt; | storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify the
| framework for
| &gt; | how that data would be authenticated. That is NOT a small =
thing.
| &gt;
| &gt; This does not require the server to create authenticated
| data on-line,
| the
| &gt; returned data can be static (i.e. pre-signed by the CA or
| end entity,
| or
| &gt; an
| &gt; attribute cert as suggested by Denis).  There is no difference in
| &gt; authentication framework complexity than if this data were
| put in the
| &gt; cert itself. Whoever (CA
| &gt; or end entity ...) agrees that this is the list, they can create
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->and
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">| sign
| &gt; the
| &gt; null message or attribute cert at that time.  This fixed
| item is then
| &gt; stored in whatever server is used.  It is only changed when the
| sMIMECapabilities
| &gt; are
| &gt; changed (or when the signing keys change of course).
| &gt;
| &gt;
| &gt; I believe Jim's objective in "Certificate Distribution
| Specification"
| &gt; draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt, was to create something to be
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->used
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">| to
| &gt; distribute certificates AND sMIMECapabilities.  It also raises =
the
| issue
| &gt; of
| &gt; whether there needs to be a secure binding between the
| sMIMECapabilities
| &gt; and the
| &gt; specific certificate instance(s)* (and not just a binding between
| &gt; sMIMECapabilities and the subjectName).
| &gt;
| &gt; A bit more discussion of attribute certificates might be in order
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->as
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">| well.
| &gt;
| &gt;
| &gt; Tony
| &gt;
| &gt;
| &gt; * I don't believe this is done in CMS/MSG implementations at the
| moment.
| &gt; I
| &gt; don't believe implementers have been told to retain any such
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->binding
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">| even
| &gt; if
| &gt; they had it - I suspect the sMIMECapabilities when cached by end
| systems
| &gt; is not
| &gt; retained in signed form - and there is no cert hash to bind it to
| specific
| &gt; cert(s) (more complicated for dual keypair).  sMIMECapabilities
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->are
  </PRE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">| &gt; probably cached =
under subjectName (???).  Your proposed method
| &gt; inherently
| securely
| &gt; binds
| &gt; the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert and this
| is a NICE
| &gt; THING, but I am not sure it is needed.  If it is, then additional
| &gt; considerations
| are
| &gt; needed
| &gt; for indirect methods if they are added as suggested.
| &gt;
|
|

    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->


  </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Subject: RE: Static vs Dynamic sMIMECapabilities draft(s)
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Sean,

I fully agree. I have no fear that these specifications will overlap since they will specify entirely different type of certificate content and will represent fully distinguishable options.

/Stefan

  
________________________________________
From: Sean P. Turner [mailto:turners@ieca.com] 
Sent: den 9 september 2004 15:30
To: Stefan Santesson; Tony Capel
Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: Static vs Dynamic sMIMECapabilities draft(s)

All,

After following the discussion, I think we ought to have two drafts: one for the "static" capability and one for the "dynamic" capability.  I base this on the time frame necessary to complete the "static" draft, which is pretty much documenting the security considerations (ala Dennis's comments), compared to the "dynamic" draft, which is pretty much still on the white board.  If another draft is produced that documents the "dynamic" capability, the WG will discuss it as we are discussing the "static" case.   My only caution is that I don't want the "dynamic" draft to define ways to distribute certificates that's already covered by PKIX, LDAP, and DNS specifications. Further, if people think that those specifications are too hard there's going to be pkiops BOF in Washington that is supposed to start looking at "ways to make certificate use and deployment easy."  I hate to have two ways to do the same thing but they're supporting different requirements (static vs dynamic) and they're both optional to implement so I can see why it's okay to have them in separate drafts.  

spt

Stefan Santesson wrote:

Tony,

I'm sorry, but I can't get away from the fact that I believe that you
oversimplify this issue.

Even if you do get passed the format issue by using a null signed
message I see an immediate problem in sorting out WHO is the signer of
the null signed message.

If you force the certified subject to be the signer (which you probably
need to if it is to work according to existing principles) then the
solution will be practically useless since you loose the ability to
automate the process to generate and distribute capabilities.

If you let the certificate issuer sign the null signed message on behalf
of the subject, then you probably need to define how you specify in the
message who's capabilities that are defined in the message and now we
have opened the can of worms for other options and variants as well.

And then you still need to define a new extension to point to this data.

Another problem is storage location and its automation. CRL is easily
configurable in a system because one CA has a limited set of CRLs to
produce (mostly only one) but here we have a concept where you store at
least one object per subject, and maybe many. And this makes
implementation far more complex than CRL storage and may include aspects
such as directory schema expansion and innovation to manage users with
renewed certs or multiple valid certs.

Comparing with CRLs are probably not that good to prove your point since
CRLs actually are enormously complex if you study all options with
segmented scope, indirect CRLs, delta CRLs, Revocation reasons,
revocation or hold status, invalidity dates and renewal frequencies,
etc..... A perfect example how the task to specify a signed list of
serial numbers expanded to Goliat's proportions.

The current draft doesn't require any new object identifiers; it is just
making use of an already defined data structure for sMIMECapabilities to
be used as certificate extension. Easy and simple!

I want to repeat that I'm NOT principally opposed towards discussing
good innovative solutions to solve dynamic capabilities expression, but
I still claim that it is too complex to mix with this simple spec, which
should be done before end of this year.

There is no reason why we need to cover dynamic capabilities in the same
RFC. You can't use the same extension format anyway since the format of
the current spec use the already established structure for the
sMIMECapabilities attribute. This can't be changed to include links to
dynamic data. You need to do that in a new extension anyway.

If this WG wants to do dynamic capabilities of certificates it is
perfectly OK to do that in a separate RFC.

And I'm not the guy to lead that effort.

Maybe you are? :-)

Stefan Santesson
Microsoft Security Center of Excellence (SCOE)
 

  
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com]
Sent: den 3 september 2004 22:18
To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt

Stefan:

I fully understand your reluctance (which I share) for proliferation
    
of
  
scope.
Please bear with me.

Your proposal requires an extension to the X.509 certificate syntax,
    
and
  
it
seems you have preliminary agreement from PKIX that S/MIME WG can do
    
that.
  
This
is very good (and I am humbled by your ability to do that!), but we
    
should
  
make
sure we exploit this opportunity well, so we do not have to return to
    
the
  
well
too often ;-).  To do that we need to consider what is quick and
    
simple to
  
do
today and also where we might go.  So I think this discussion now is
valuable.

I cannot agree that this is complex, although I agree it CAN be made
complex as
you demonstrate.

The model here is the CRLDistribution point (with all its warts).
    
Those
  
guys
did not worry about whether the CRL would be available by LDAP, HTTP,
SMTP, or
whatever when they defined it.  They only worried about what the CRL
format was
to be.  In our case I propose we already have a format:  a null signed
message.
Maybe Denis will suggest an attribute certificate - but that can be
carried in a
null signed message too.  I suspect that if I posted a null signed
    
message
  
on a
website (and configured the HTTP content type correctly) it might even
work
today (??).  And frankly, if an organization is already distributing
    
CRL's
  
by
whatever method, allowing the same infrastructure to be used to
    
provide
  
sMIMECapabilities in a null signed message is not much more work (and
    
it
  
will
also provide the full cert path, attribute certs, etc. if needed!).
    
The
  
server
just responds with a static null signed item.  Processing on receipt
    
is
  
the same
as the processing already implemented for incoming signed messages.


I think there is a danger if we only propose to PKIX (and X.509) folks
that the
only way we can solve the sMIMECapabilities "problem" is just to stick
    
all
  
the
sMIMECapabilities into the cert.  I think we will get a negative
    
reaction.
  
If
it is one option where there are other options which are a bit more
efficient,
we have a better chance.  I have also mentioned that we should make
    
the
  
extension more application-agnostic, I think this will also make it
    
more
  
palatable, but that's another thread....

Tony


| -----Original Message-----
| From: Stefan Santesson [mailto:stefans@microsoft.com]
| Sent: September 3, 2004 1:58 PM
| To: Tony Capel; ietf-smime@imc.org
| Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
|
|
| Tony,
|
| Yes it looks like a small cute thing doesn't it. Dynamic
| sMIMECapabilities!
|
| Well, I'm damaged by experience and I can really see this
| take off in a million directions.
|
| First you will have the issue to sort out in what format and
| structure you want to handle the data, meta data, signatures
| etc for the dynamic capabilities, then you need to sort out
| how you will structure the extension referring to this data
| in certificates, and then also sort out what schemas can and
| cannot be used to obtain the data, whether it is http, https,
| ldap, ftp.
|
| Then we have already heard voices that we might need to
| distinguish between capabilities for different applications
| and then we need to define how we identify applications. Why
| not then argue about how this data should be signed and if
| there might be a reason to let different entities sign
| different parts of the capabilities data.
|
| Then we can discuss how we would refer to the certificates
| used to validate signatures on these signatures and what we
| must do to allow dynamic linking to certificates in case some
| certificates gets revoked or renewed.
|
| And I have yet not even touched the aspect of attribute
| certificates whether they will be or not be, and how that
| would be if it is....
|
| I can't prove that this will take time but I'm willing to
| make a bet:-)
|
| What I say is that we should not hold back the simple and
| straight forward use of an existing, well defined data structure.
|
| If this WG whish to solve dynamic access to authenticated
| application oriented sMIMECapabilities, then it deserves it
| own project.
|
| /Stefan
|
| > -----Original Message-----
| > From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com]
| > Sent: den 3 september 2004 17:42
| > To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org
| > Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
| >
| > Stefan:
| >
| > Thanks.  I don't think this is such a big suggestion.
| >
| > | [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however not a
| > | marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication of
| > | complexity.
| > |
| > | sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you introduce
| > | storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify the
| framework for
| > | how that data would be authenticated. That is NOT a small thing.
| >
| > This does not require the server to create authenticated
| data on-line,
| the
| > returned data can be static (i.e. pre-signed by the CA or
| end entity,
| or
| > an
| > attribute cert as suggested by Denis).  There is no difference in
| > authentication framework complexity than if this data were
| put in the
| > cert itself. Whoever (CA
| > or end entity ...) agrees that this is the list, they can create
    
and
  
| sign
| > the
| > null message or attribute cert at that time.  This fixed
| item is then
| > stored in whatever server is used.  It is only changed when the
| sMIMECapabilities
| > are
| > changed (or when the signing keys change of course).
| >
| >
| > I believe Jim's objective in "Certificate Distribution
| Specification"
| > draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt, was to create something to be
    
used
  
| to
| > distribute certificates AND sMIMECapabilities.  It also raises the
| issue
| > of
| > whether there needs to be a secure binding between the
| sMIMECapabilities
| > and the
| > specific certificate instance(s)* (and not just a binding between
| > sMIMECapabilities and the subjectName).
| >
| > A bit more discussion of attribute certificates might be in order
    
as
  
| well.
| >
| >
| > Tony
| >
| >
| > * I don't believe this is done in CMS/MSG implementations at the
| moment.
| > I
| > don't believe implementers have been told to retain any such
    
binding
  
| even
| > if
| > they had it - I suspect the sMIMECapabilities when cached by end
| systems
| > is not
| > retained in signed form - and there is no cert hash to bind it to
| specific
| > cert(s) (more complicated for dual keypair).  sMIMECapabilities
    
are
  
| > probably cached under subjectName (???).  Your proposed method
| > inherently
| securely
| > binds
| > the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert and this
| is a NICE
| > THING, but I am not sure it is needed.  If it is, then additional
| > considerations
| are
| > needed
| > for indirect methods if they are added as suggested.
| >
|
|

    



  



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Subject: Static vs Dynamic sMIMECapabilities draft(s)
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All,<br>
<br>
After following the discussion, I think we ought to have two drafts:
one for the "static" capability and one for the "dynamic" capability.&nbsp;
I base this on the time frame necessary to complete the "static" draft,
which is pretty much documenting the security considerations (ala
Dennis's comments), compared to the "dynamic" draft, which is pretty
much still on the white board.&nbsp; If another draft is produced that
documents the "dynamic" capability, the WG will discuss it as we
are discussing the "static" case.&nbsp;&nbsp; My only caution is that I don't
want the
"dynamic" draft to define ways to distribute certificates that's
already covered by PKIX, LDAP, and DNS specifications. Further, if
people think that those specifications are too hard there's going to be
pkiops BOF in Washington that is supposed to start looking at "ways to
make certificate use and deployment easy."&nbsp; I hate to have two ways to
do the same thing but they're supporting different requirements (static
vs dynamic) and they're both optional to implement so I can see why
it's okay to have them in separate drafts.&nbsp; <br>
<br>
spt<br>
<br>
Stefan Santesson wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
 cite="mid0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D01359C21@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com">
  <pre wrap="">Tony,

I'm sorry, but I can't get away from the fact that I believe that you
oversimplify this issue.

Even if you do get passed the format issue by using a null signed
message I see an immediate problem in sorting out WHO is the signer of
the null signed message.

If you force the certified subject to be the signer (which you probably
need to if it is to work according to existing principles) then the
solution will be practically useless since you loose the ability to
automate the process to generate and distribute capabilities.

If you let the certificate issuer sign the null signed message on behalf
of the subject, then you probably need to define how you specify in the
message who's capabilities that are defined in the message and now we
have opened the can of worms for other options and variants as well.

And then you still need to define a new extension to point to this data.

Another problem is storage location and its automation. CRL is easily
configurable in a system because one CA has a limited set of CRLs to
produce (mostly only one) but here we have a concept where you store at
least one object per subject, and maybe many. And this makes
implementation far more complex than CRL storage and may include aspects
such as directory schema expansion and innovation to manage users with
renewed certs or multiple valid certs.

Comparing with CRLs are probably not that good to prove your point since
CRLs actually are enormously complex if you study all options with
segmented scope, indirect CRLs, delta CRLs, Revocation reasons,
revocation or hold status, invalidity dates and renewal frequencies,
etc..... A perfect example how the task to specify a signed list of
serial numbers expanded to Goliat's proportions.

The current draft doesn't require any new object identifiers; it is just
making use of an already defined data structure for sMIMECapabilities to
be used as certificate extension. Easy and simple!

I want to repeat that I'm NOT principally opposed towards discussing
good innovative solutions to solve dynamic capabilities expression, but
I still claim that it is too complex to mix with this simple spec, which
should be done before end of this year.

There is no reason why we need to cover dynamic capabilities in the same
RFC. You can't use the same extension format anyway since the format of
the current spec use the already established structure for the
sMIMECapabilities attribute. This can't be changed to include links to
dynamic data. You need to do that in a new extension anyway.

If this WG wants to do dynamic capabilities of certificates it is
perfectly OK to do that in a separate RFC.

And I'm not the guy to lead that effort.

Maybe you are? :-)

Stefan Santesson
Microsoft Security Center of Excellence (SCOE)
 

  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Capel [<a
 class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:capel@comgate.com">mailto:capel@comgate.com</a>]
Sent: den 3 september 2004 22:18
To: Stefan Santesson; <a
 class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ietf-smime@imc.org">ietf-smime@imc.org</a>
Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt

Stefan:

I fully understand your reluctance (which I share) for proliferation
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->of
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">scope.
Please bear with me.

Your proposal requires an extension to the X.509 certificate syntax,
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->and
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">it
seems you have preliminary agreement from PKIX that S/MIME WG can do
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->that.
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">This
is very good (and I am humbled by your ability to do that!), but we
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->should
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">make
sure we exploit this opportunity well, so we do not have to return to
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->the
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">well
too often ;-).  To do that we need to consider what is quick and
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->simple to
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">do
today and also where we might go.  So I think this discussion now is
valuable.

I cannot agree that this is complex, although I agree it CAN be made
complex as
you demonstrate.

The model here is the CRLDistribution point (with all its warts).
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->Those
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">guys
did not worry about whether the CRL would be available by LDAP, HTTP,
SMTP, or
whatever when they defined it.  They only worried about what the CRL
format was
to be.  In our case I propose we already have a format:  a null signed
message.
Maybe Denis will suggest an attribute certificate - but that can be
carried in a
null signed message too.  I suspect that if I posted a null signed
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->message
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">on a
website (and configured the HTTP content type correctly) it might even
work
today (??).  And frankly, if an organization is already distributing
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->CRL's
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">by
whatever method, allowing the same infrastructure to be used to
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->provide
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">sMIMECapabilities in a null signed message is not much more work (and
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->it
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">will
also provide the full cert path, attribute certs, etc. if needed!).
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->The
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">server
just responds with a static null signed item.  Processing on receipt
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->is
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">the same
as the processing already implemented for incoming signed messages.


I think there is a danger if we only propose to PKIX (and X.509) folks
that the
only way we can solve the sMIMECapabilities "problem" is just to stick
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->all
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">the
sMIMECapabilities into the cert.  I think we will get a negative
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->reaction.
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">If
it is one option where there are other options which are a bit more
efficient,
we have a better chance.  I have also mentioned that we should make
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->the
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">extension more application-agnostic, I think this will also make it
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->more
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">palatable, but that's another thread....

Tony


| -----Original Message-----
| From: Stefan Santesson [<a
 class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:stefans@microsoft.com">mailto:stefans@microsoft.com</a>]
| Sent: September 3, 2004 1:58 PM
| To: Tony Capel; <a
 class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ietf-smime@imc.org">ietf-smime@imc.org</a>
| Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
|
|
| Tony,
|
| Yes it looks like a small cute thing doesn't it. Dynamic
| sMIMECapabilities!
|
| Well, I'm damaged by experience and I can really see this
| take off in a million directions.
|
| First you will have the issue to sort out in what format and
| structure you want to handle the data, meta data, signatures
| etc for the dynamic capabilities, then you need to sort out
| how you will structure the extension referring to this data
| in certificates, and then also sort out what schemas can and
| cannot be used to obtain the data, whether it is http, https,
| ldap, ftp.
|
| Then we have already heard voices that we might need to
| distinguish between capabilities for different applications
| and then we need to define how we identify applications. Why
| not then argue about how this data should be signed and if
| there might be a reason to let different entities sign
| different parts of the capabilities data.
|
| Then we can discuss how we would refer to the certificates
| used to validate signatures on these signatures and what we
| must do to allow dynamic linking to certificates in case some
| certificates gets revoked or renewed.
|
| And I have yet not even touched the aspect of attribute
| certificates whether they will be or not be, and how that
| would be if it is....
|
| I can't prove that this will take time but I'm willing to
| make a bet:-)
|
| What I say is that we should not hold back the simple and
| straight forward use of an existing, well defined data structure.
|
| If this WG whish to solve dynamic access to authenticated
| application oriented sMIMECapabilities, then it deserves it
| own project.
|
| /Stefan
|
| &gt; -----Original Message-----
| &gt; From: Tony Capel [<a
 class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:capel@comgate.com">mailto:capel@comgate.com</a>]
| &gt; Sent: den 3 september 2004 17:42
| &gt; To: Stefan Santesson; <a
 class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ietf-smime@imc.org">ietf-smime@imc.org</a>
| &gt; Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
| &gt;
| &gt; Stefan:
| &gt;
| &gt; Thanks.  I don't think this is such a big suggestion.
| &gt;
| &gt; | [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however not a
| &gt; | marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication of
| &gt; | complexity.
| &gt; |
| &gt; | sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you introduce
| &gt; | storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify the
| framework for
| &gt; | how that data would be authenticated. That is NOT a small thing.
| &gt;
| &gt; This does not require the server to create authenticated
| data on-line,
| the
| &gt; returned data can be static (i.e. pre-signed by the CA or
| end entity,
| or
| &gt; an
| &gt; attribute cert as suggested by Denis).  There is no difference in
| &gt; authentication framework complexity than if this data were
| put in the
| &gt; cert itself. Whoever (CA
| &gt; or end entity ...) agrees that this is the list, they can create
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->and
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">| sign
| &gt; the
| &gt; null message or attribute cert at that time.  This fixed
| item is then
| &gt; stored in whatever server is used.  It is only changed when the
| sMIMECapabilities
| &gt; are
| &gt; changed (or when the signing keys change of course).
| &gt;
| &gt;
| &gt; I believe Jim's objective in "Certificate Distribution
| Specification"
| &gt; draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt, was to create something to be
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->used
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">| to
| &gt; distribute certificates AND sMIMECapabilities.  It also raises the
| issue
| &gt; of
| &gt; whether there needs to be a secure binding between the
| sMIMECapabilities
| &gt; and the
| &gt; specific certificate instance(s)* (and not just a binding between
| &gt; sMIMECapabilities and the subjectName).
| &gt;
| &gt; A bit more discussion of attribute certificates might be in order
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->as
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">| well.
| &gt;
| &gt;
| &gt; Tony
| &gt;
| &gt;
| &gt; * I don't believe this is done in CMS/MSG implementations at the
| moment.
| &gt; I
| &gt; don't believe implementers have been told to retain any such
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->binding
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">| even
| &gt; if
| &gt; they had it - I suspect the sMIMECapabilities when cached by end
| systems
| &gt; is not
| &gt; retained in signed form - and there is no cert hash to bind it to
| specific
| &gt; cert(s) (more complicated for dual keypair).  sMIMECapabilities
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->are
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">| &gt; probably cached under subjectName (???).  Your proposed method
| &gt; inherently
| securely
| &gt; binds
| &gt; the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert and this
| is a NICE
| &gt; THING, but I am not sure it is needed.  If it is, then additional
| &gt; considerations
| are
| &gt; needed
| &gt; for indirect methods if they are added as suggested.
| &gt;
|
|

    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->


  </pre>
</blockquote>
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Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-01.txt
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At line 125 and 134: s/midnight, January/00:00:00 UTC, January/
or midnight UTC.

alfonso


On Tue, 2004-09-07 at 22:59, Russ Housley wrote:
> Dear S/MIME WG:
> 
> I have just sent an update of my binary time draft to the Internet-Draft 
> repository.  It is intended to be published as an experimental RFC.  Thank 
> you for the review that I have received thus far.  The document has greatly 
> improved from this review.
> 
> The document should appear in the Internet-Drafts repository in a day or 
> two.  I look forward to a new round of comments.
> 
> Russ



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Dear S/MIME WG:

I have just sent an update of my binary time draft to the Internet-Draft 
repository.  It is intended to be published as an experimental RFC.  Thank 
you for the review that I have received thus far.  The document has greatly 
improved from this review.

The document should appear in the Internet-Drafts repository in a day or 
two.  I look forward to a new round of comments.

Russ



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Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 13:16:21 -0400
From: "Sean P. Turner" <turners@ieca.com>
Organization: IECA, Inc.
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To: Stefan Santesson <stefans@microsoft.com>
CC: SMIME <ietf-smime@imc.org>
Subject: Re: Charter Modification
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In-Reply-To: <0C3042E92D8A714783E2C44AB9936E1D013960D1@EUR-MSG-03.europe.corp.microsoft.com>
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Stefan,<br>
<br>
I guess I didn't see this as a big change. I'm also not sure anybody
was really suggesting a more dynamic approach just that red flags might
be raised by PKIX if we assume we're going to stick it in a cert.&nbsp; I
personally don't think PKIX is going to care because PKIX is tring to
close down.&nbsp; And, I think there's only a couple of "simple" ways to
distribute the attribute: in a respository or in a cert.&nbsp; The
repository case is already defined we're just doing the other one.&nbsp;
Besides, you don't have to implement it if you don't want to.<br>
<br>
spt<br>
<br>
Stefan Santesson wrote:<br>
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  <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span
 lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">This
text sounds as it
implies a substantial expansion of scope of the capabilities issue.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span
 lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span
 lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">I
don&#8217;t oppose this
change but suggest then that we change &#8221;</span></font><font size="2"
 color="blue" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB"
 style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;">a
specification will be developed</span></font><font size="2" color="navy"
 face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB"
 style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">&#8220; to
&#8220;specifications will be developed&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span
 lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span
 lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">The
type of complex approaches
recently discussed on this list to accommodate dynamic assertion of
sMIMECapabilities
doesn&#8217;t mix very well with the simple and direct task to document the
use
of the existing attribute structure as a certificate extension.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span
 lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span
 lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">I
therefore strongly
suggest, in case the WG wants to pursue that path, that the recent
discussed
expanded task is separated into its own work item and that the WG
assigns
another editor for that work.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span
 lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">I
don&#8217;t have the
time and capacity to edit that specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <div>
  <p><b><font size="2" color="olive" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB"
 style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: olive; font-weight: bold;">Stefan
Santesson</span></font></b><font color="navy"><span lang="EN-GB"
 style="color: navy;"> <br>
  </span></font><font size="2" color="olive" face="Arial"><span
 lang="EN-GB" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: olive;">Microsoft
Security <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:PlaceType w:st="on">Center</st1:PlaceType>
of <st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Excellence</st1:PlaceName></st1:place>
(SCOE)</span></font><font color="navy"><span lang="EN-GB"
 style="color: navy;"> <br>
  </span></font><font color="navy" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-GB"
 style="font-family: Arial; color: navy;">&nbsp;</span></font><font
 color="navy"><span lang="EN-GB" style="color: navy;"> </span></font><span
 lang="EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
  </div>
  <div
 style="border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue; border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt;">
  <div>
  <div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align: center;"><font
 size="3" color="black" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-US"
 style="font-size: 12pt; color: windowtext;">
  <hr size="2" width="100%" align="center" tabindex="-1"></span></font></div>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><b><font size="2" color="black" face="Tahoma"><span
 lang="EN-US"
 style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: windowtext; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font
 size="2" color="black" face="Tahoma"><span lang="EN-US"
 style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; color: windowtext;">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org">owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org">mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org</a>] <b><span
 style="font-weight: bold;">On
Behalf Of </span></b>Sean P. Turner<br>
  <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> den 7 september
2004 13:12<br>
  <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> SMIME<br>
  <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: Charter
Modification</span></font><font color="black"><span lang="EN-US"
 style="color: windowtext;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </div>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black"
 face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black"
 face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">I'm going to
forward the charter on to Russ with
Tony's suggested changes.&nbsp;&nbsp; As for the other issue of S/MIME
gateways, we'll see how it plays out in the other working group.<br>
  <br>
Sean P. Turner wrote:<br>
  <br>
  <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black"
 face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">All,<br>
  <br>
To include Stefan's work in the working group we need to modify the
working
group's charter (we also needed to update the dates anyway because some
are way
off).&nbsp; Attached is the proposed modification.&nbsp; Please respond with
any comments by&nbsp; Friday.<br>
  <br>
Cheers,<br>
  <br>
spt <br>
  <br>
  <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre style="text-align: center;"><font size="2" color="black"
 face="Courier New"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">

<hr size="4" width="90%" align="center">

</span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">S/MIME Mail Security (smime)<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">Chair:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sean Turner <a
 href="mailto:turners@ieca.com">&lt;turners@ieca.com&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <st1:PersonName w:st="on">Blake Ramsdell</st1:PersonName> <a
 href="mailto:blake@sendmail.com">&lt;blake@sendmail.com&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">Security Area Director:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Russ Housley <a
 href="mailto:housley@vigilsec.com">&lt;housley@vigilsec.com&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Steve Belovin <a
 href="mailto:smb@research.att.com">&lt;smb@research.att.com&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">Security Area Advisor:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Russ Housley <a
 href="mailto:housley@vigilsec.com">&lt;housley@vigilsec.com&gt;</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">Mailing Lists:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; General Discussion: <a
 href="mailto:ietf-smime@imc.org">ietf-smime@imc.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; To Subscribe:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a
 href="mailto:ietf-smime-request@imc.org">ietf-smime-request@imc.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Archive:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a
 href="http://www.imc.org/ietf-smime/">http://www.imc.org/ietf-smime/</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">Description of Working Group:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">The S/MIME Working Group has completed a series of Proposed Standards that comprise the S/MIME version 3.1 specification. As part of the specification update, a new suite of "mandatory to implement" algorithms was be selected. Current efforts update and build upon these base specifications.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">The Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) (RFC 3852) is cryptographic algorithm independent, yet there is always more than one way to use any algorithm. To ensure interoperability, each algorithm should have a specification that describes its use with CMS. Specifications for the use of additional cryptographic algorithms will be developed.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">To aid implementers, documents containing example output for CMS will be collected and published. Some of the examples will include structures and signed attributes defined in the Enhanced SecurityServices (ESS) (RFC 2634) document.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">CMS, as well as S/MIME version 3 and later, permit the use of previously distributed symmetric key-encryption keys. Specifications for the distribution of symmetric key-encryption keys to multiple message recipients will be developed. Mail List Agents (MLAs) areone user of symmetric key-encryption keys. The specification will be algorithm independent.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="3" color="black"
 face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt;">Stike the
following<br>
  <br>
  <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <pre wrap=""><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">To aid initial determination of recipient's cryptographic capabilities a specification will be developed allowing S/MIME capabilities to be stored and asserted in X.509 certificates based on the X.509 certificate and CRL profile developed by the PKIX Working Group.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <p class="MsoNormal"><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">And replace it with:</span></font><font
 size="2" color="blue" face="Arial"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: blue;"><br>
  <br>
To aid initial determination of&nbsp;a recipient's cryptographic and other
S/MIME related capabilities,&nbsp;a specification will be developed
allowing&nbsp;these capabilities to be&nbsp;distributed using method(s) in
addition to that currently&nbsp;specified</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>
  <pre wrap=""><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">The working group will perform necessary interoperability testing to rogress the CMS and S/MIME specifications to Draft Standard. The CMS specification depends on the RFC 3280. This profile must progress to Draft Standard before CMS and the other S/MIME specifications can progress to Draft Standard. Assuming timely progress by the PKIX Working Group, the S/MIME specification can start progressing to Draft Standard in 2005.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">Milestones:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">History<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit CMS compressed data content type a Proposed Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit security label usage specification as Informational RFC.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit elliptic curve algorithm specification as Informational RFC.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit update to CMS as a Proposed Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit CMS Algorithms as a Proposed Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit AES key wrap algorithm description as Informational RFC.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Last call on X.400 CMS wrapper specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Last call on X.400 transport specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Last call on HMAC key wrap description specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Last call on RSA OAEP algorithm specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Last call on AES algorithm specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Last call on update to MSG.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; First draft of update to CERT.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; First draft of CMS and ESS examples document.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; First draft of S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; First draft of RSA PSS algorithm specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit mail list key distribution as a Proposed Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit HMAC key wrap description as Proposed Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit RSA OAEP algorithm specification as a Proposed Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sumbit AES algorithm specification as Proposed Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit X.400 CMS wrapper specification as a Proposed Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit X.400 transport as a Proposed Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Last call on CMS and ESS examples document.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sumbit update to CERT as Proposed Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sumbit update to MSG as Proposed Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; First draft of RSA KEM algorithm specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Last call on RSA PSS algorithm specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit RSA PSS algorithm specification as Proposed Standard<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">September 04<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit CMS and ESS examples document as Informational RFC<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; First draft of S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">October 04<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Working Group Last Call for S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">December 04<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension as Informational RFC<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">January 05<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Final S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">February 05<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Request advancement of CMS Algorithms to Draft Standard<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Request advancement of CMS to Draft Standard<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Request advancement of ESS to Draft Standard<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Request advancement of CERT to Draft Standard<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Request advancement of MSG to Draft Standard<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Last call on RSA KEM algorithm specification<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">January 06<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  <pre><font size="2" color="black" face="Courier New"><span
 style="font-size: 10pt;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit RSA KEM algorithm specification as Proposed Standard<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
  </div>
  </div>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>




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Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 10:33:35 -0400
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann), dpkemp@missi.ncsc.mil, ietf-smime@imc.org
From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
In-Reply-To: <E1C3qPb-0005fn-00@medusa01>
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Peter:

So, if it were an experimental document, you would have not issues?

Russ

At 02:22 AM 9/5/2004, Peter Gutmann wrote:

>"David P. Kemp" <dpkemp@missi.ncsc.mil> writes:
>
> >There are no existing applications in this space
>
>In other words in the 20-odd years that ASN.1 has been around, this pressing
>need to save a handful of bytes in time encodings has never been an issue.
>This suggests a simple solution...
>
>The main reason why I object to something that's mostly just a gratuitously
>incompatible re-encoding of an existing field is because it's being pushed as
>a standards-track document.  Because of this, users will demand that it be
>supported (even though they have no idea why they need it) simply because it's
>a standards-track RFC, and it wouldn't have been made standards-track if there
>wasn't some reason for having it even if we don't know what it is.
>Implementors then have to support yet another attribute, yet another date
>format, double the size of the date data in sigs because of the nead to
>support both the existing and new format, act in some appropriate manner when
>the two dates disagree (actually from existing experience with apps that
>deliberately set inconsistent times in signed data that allows multiple time
>fields, nothing ever checks this, they just pick one or the other date
>arbitrarily), etc etc etc.
>
>Now as you say above, the demand for this to date has been zero.  This
>suggests that the correct track for the new time encoding is either
>"Experimental" or "grab a private OID and go for it", to match the actual
>demand from users.
>
>Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> writes:
>
> >However, i am aware of smartcard environments without mktime().
>
>Since they are presumably also without a RTC (thus making the inability to
>convert a UTCTime moot, since there's nothing to check it against), this
>wouldn't appear to be a real problem.
>
>(I have been informed in private mail of the existence of several C one-liners
>  (and at least one in Fortran, this problem has been studied for awhile) to
>  convert the ASN.1-style ASCII date to a binary format, so it's likely that
>  the additional code needed to handle binary times would entail more overhead
>  than a basic mktime()-equivalent).
>
>Peter.



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Subject: RE: Charter Modification
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This text sounds as it implies a substantial expansion of scope of the
capabilities issue.

=20

I don't oppose this change but suggest then that we change "a
specification will be developed" to "specifications will be developed".

=20

The type of complex approaches recently discussed on this list to
accommodate dynamic assertion of sMIMECapabilities doesn't mix very well
with the simple and direct task to document the use of the existing
attribute structure as a certificate extension.

=20

I therefore strongly suggest, in case the WG wants to pursue that path,
that the recent discussed expanded task is separated into its own work
item and that the WG assigns another editor for that work.

I don't have the time and capacity to edit that specification.

Stefan Santesson=20
Microsoft Security Center of Excellence (SCOE)=20
 =20

________________________________

From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org
[mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Sean P. Turner
Sent: den 7 september 2004 13:12
To: SMIME
Subject: Re: Charter Modification

=20

I'm going to forward the charter on to Russ with Tony's suggested
changes.   As for the other issue of S/MIME gateways, we'll see how it
plays out in the other working group.

Sean P. Turner wrote:



All,

To include Stefan's work in the working group we need to modify the
working group's charter (we also needed to update the dates anyway
because some are way off).  Attached is the proposed modification.
Please respond with any comments by  Friday.

Cheers,

spt=20



=20



________________________________



=20
=20
S/MIME Mail Security (smime)
=20
Chair:
     Sean Turner <turners@ieca.com> <mailto:turners@ieca.com>=20
     Blake Ramsdell <blake@sendmail.com> <mailto:blake@sendmail.com>=20
=20
=20
Security Area Director:
     Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> <mailto:housley@vigilsec.com>=20
     Steve Belovin <smb@research.att.com> <mailto:smb@research.att.com>=20
=20
Security Area Advisor:
     Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> <mailto:housley@vigilsec.com>=20
=20
Mailing Lists:
     General Discussion: ietf-smime@imc.org
     To Subscribe:       ietf-smime-request@imc.org
     Archive:            http://www.imc.org/ietf-smime/
=20
Description of Working Group:
=20
The S/MIME Working Group has completed a series of Proposed Standards
that comprise the S/MIME version 3.1 specification. As part of the
specification update, a new suite of "mandatory to implement" algorithms
was be selected. Current efforts update and build upon these base
specifications.
=20
The Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) (RFC 3852) is cryptographic
algorithm independent, yet there is always more than one way to use any
algorithm. To ensure interoperability, each algorithm should have a
specification that describes its use with CMS. Specifications for the
use of additional cryptographic algorithms will be developed.
=20
To aid implementers, documents containing example output for CMS will be
collected and published. Some of the examples will include structures
and signed attributes defined in the Enhanced SecurityServices (ESS)
(RFC 2634) document.
=20
CMS, as well as S/MIME version 3 and later, permit the use of previously
distributed symmetric key-encryption keys. Specifications for the
distribution of symmetric key-encryption keys to multiple message
recipients will be developed. Mail List Agents (MLAs) areone user of
symmetric key-encryption keys. The specification will be algorithm
independent.
 =20

Stike the following



=20
To aid initial determination of recipient's cryptographic capabilities a
specification will be developed allowing S/MIME capabilities to be
stored and asserted in X.509 certificates based on the X.509 certificate
and CRL profile developed by the PKIX Working Group.
 =20

And replace it with:

To aid initial determination of a recipient's cryptographic and other
S/MIME related capabilities, a specification will be developed allowing
these capabilities to be distributed using method(s) in addition to that
currently specified=20

=20
The working group will perform necessary interoperability testing to
rogress the CMS and S/MIME specifications to Draft Standard. The CMS
specification depends on the RFC 3280. This profile must progress to
Draft Standard before CMS and the other S/MIME specifications can
progress to Draft Standard. Assuming timely progress by the PKIX Working
Group, the S/MIME specification can start progressing to Draft Standard
in 2005.
=20
Milestones:
=20
History
     Submit CMS compressed data content type a Proposed Standard.
     Submit security label usage specification as Informational RFC.
     Submit elliptic curve algorithm specification as Informational RFC.
     Submit update to CMS as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit CMS Algorithms as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit AES key wrap algorithm description as Informational RFC.
     Last call on X.400 CMS wrapper specification.
     Last call on X.400 transport specification.
     Last call on HMAC key wrap description specification.
     Last call on RSA OAEP algorithm specification.
     Last call on AES algorithm specification.
     Last call on update to MSG.
     First draft of update to CERT.
     First draft of CMS and ESS examples document.
     First draft of S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix.
     First draft of RSA PSS algorithm specification.
     Submit mail list key distribution as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit HMAC key wrap description as Proposed Standard.
     Submit RSA OAEP algorithm specification as a Proposed Standard.
     Sumbit AES algorithm specification as Proposed Standard.
     Submit X.400 CMS wrapper specification as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit X.400 transport as a Proposed Standard.
     Last call on CMS and ESS examples document.
     Sumbit update to CERT as Proposed Standard.
     Sumbit update to MSG as Proposed Standard.
     First draft of RSA KEM algorithm specification.
     Last call on RSA PSS algorithm specification.
     Submit RSA PSS algorithm specification as Proposed Standard
=20
September 04
     Submit CMS and ESS examples document as Informational RFC
     First draft of S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension
=20
October 04
     Working Group Last Call for S/MIME Capabilities Certificate
Extension
=20
December 04
     Submit S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension as Informational
RFC
=20
January 05
     Final S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix=20
=20
February 05
     Request advancement of CMS Algorithms to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of CMS to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of ESS to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of CERT to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of MSG to Draft Standard
     Last call on RSA KEM algorithm specification
=20
January 06
     Submit RSA KEM algorithm specification as Proposed Standard

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style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>This text sounds =
as it
implies a substantial expansion of scope of the capabilities =
issue.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
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change but suggest then that we change &#8221;</span></font><font =
size=3D2
color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
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size=3D2
color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>&#8220; to &#8220;specifications will be =
developed&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The type of =
complex approaches
recently discussed on this list to accommodate dynamic assertion of =
sMIMECapabilities
doesn&#8217;t mix very well with the simple and direct task to document =
the use
of the existing attribute structure as a certificate =
extension.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I therefore =
strongly
suggest, in case the WG wants to pursue that path, that the recent =
discussed
expanded task is separated into its own work item and that the WG =
assigns
another editor for that work.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I don&#8217;t =
have the
time and capacity to edit that =
specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p><b><font size=3D2 color=3Dolive face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:olive;font-weight:bold'>Stefan =
Santesson</span></font></b><font
color=3Dnavy><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:navy'> <br>
</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dolive face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:olive'>Microsoft =
Security <st1:place
w:st=3D"on"><st1:PlaceType w:st=3D"on">Center</st1:PlaceType> of =
<st1:PlaceName
 w:st=3D"on">Excellence</st1:PlaceName></st1:place> =
(SCOE)</span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:navy'> <br>
</span></font><font color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><font color=3Dnavy><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'color:navy'> </span></font><span =
lang=3DEN-GB><o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 4.0pt'>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
color:windowtext'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DTahoma><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext;font-weight=
:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext'> owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org
[mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of </span></b>Sean P. Turner<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> den 7 september =
2004 13:12<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> SMIME<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Charter =
Modification</span></font><font
color=3Dblack><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>I'm going to forward the charter on to Russ =
with
Tony's suggested changes.&nbsp;&nbsp; As for the other issue of S/MIME
gateways, we'll see how it plays out in the other working group.<br>
<br>
Sean P. Turner wrote:<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>All,<br>
<br>
To include Stefan's work in the working group we need to modify the =
working
group's charter (we also needed to update the dates anyway because some =
are way
off).&nbsp; Attached is the proposed modification.&nbsp; Please respond =
with
any comments by&nbsp; Friday.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
spt <br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<pre><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre
style=3D'text-align:center'><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>

<hr size=3D4 width=3D"90%" align=3Dcenter>

</span></font></pre><pre><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier =
New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>S/MIME Mail Security =
(smime)<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Chair:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sean Turner <a
href=3D"mailto:turners@ieca.com">&lt;turners@ieca.com&gt;</a><o:p></o:p><=
/span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <st1:PersonName
w:st=3D"on">Blake Ramsdell</st1:PersonName> <a =
href=3D"mailto:blake@sendmail.com">&lt;blake@sendmail.com&gt;</a><o:p></o=
:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Security Area =
Director:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Russ Housley <a
href=3D"mailto:housley@vigilsec.com">&lt;housley@vigilsec.com&gt;</a><o:p=
></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Steve Belovin <a
href=3D"mailto:smb@research.att.com">&lt;smb@research.att.com&gt;</a><o:p=
></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Security Area =
Advisor:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Russ Housley <a
href=3D"mailto:housley@vigilsec.com">&lt;housley@vigilsec.com&gt;</a><o:p=
></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Mailing =
Lists:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; General Discussion: =
<a
href=3D"mailto:ietf-smime@imc.org">ietf-smime@imc.org</a><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; To =
Subscribe:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a
href=3D"mailto:ietf-smime-request@imc.org">ietf-smime-request@imc.org</a>=
<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Archive:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; <a
href=3D"http://www.imc.org/ietf-smime/">http://www.imc.org/ietf-smime/</a=
><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Description of Working =
Group:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>The S/MIME Working Group has completed a =
series of Proposed Standards that comprise the S/MIME version 3.1 =
specification. As part of the specification update, a new suite of =
&quot;mandatory to implement&quot; algorithms was be selected. Current =
efforts update and build upon these base =
specifications.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>The Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) (RFC =
3852) is cryptographic algorithm independent, yet there is always more =
than one way to use any algorithm. To ensure interoperability, each =
algorithm should have a specification that describes its use with CMS. =
Specifications for the use of additional cryptographic algorithms will =
be developed.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>To aid implementers, documents containing =
example output for CMS will be collected and published. Some of the =
examples will include structures and signed attributes defined in the =
Enhanced SecurityServices (ESS) (RFC 2634) =
document.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>CMS, as well as S/MIME version 3 and later, =
permit the use of previously distributed symmetric key-encryption keys. =
Specifications for the distribution of symmetric key-encryption keys to =
multiple message recipients will be developed. Mail List Agents (MLAs) =
areone user of symmetric key-encryption keys. The specification will be =
algorithm independent.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Stike the following<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<pre wrap=3D""><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>To aid initial determination of recipient's =
cryptographic capabilities a specification will be developed allowing =
S/MIME capabilities to be stored and asserted in X.509 certificates =
based on the X.509 certificate and CRL profile developed by the PKIX =
Working Group.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>And replace it with:</span></font><font =
size=3D2
color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue'><br>
<br>
To aid initial determination of&nbsp;a recipient's cryptographic and =
other
S/MIME related capabilities,&nbsp;a specification will be developed
allowing&nbsp;these capabilities to be&nbsp;distributed using method(s) =
in
addition to that currently&nbsp;specified</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<pre wrap=3D""><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>The working group will perform necessary =
interoperability testing to rogress the CMS and S/MIME specifications to =
Draft Standard. The CMS specification depends on the RFC 3280. This =
profile must progress to Draft Standard before CMS and the other S/MIME =
specifications can progress to Draft Standard. Assuming timely progress =
by the PKIX Working Group, the S/MIME specification can start =
progressing to Draft Standard in =
2005.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Milestones:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre=
><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>History<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fo=
nt
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit CMS =
compressed data content type a Proposed =
Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit security =
label usage specification as Informational =
RFC.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit elliptic =
curve algorithm specification as Informational =
RFC.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit update to CMS =
as a Proposed Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit CMS =
Algorithms as a Proposed =
Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit AES key wrap =
algorithm description as Informational =
RFC.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Last call on X.400 =
CMS wrapper specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Last call on X.400 =
transport specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Last call on HMAC =
key wrap description =
specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Last call on RSA =
OAEP algorithm specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Last call on AES =
algorithm specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Last call on update =
to MSG.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; First draft of =
update to CERT.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; First draft of CMS =
and ESS examples document.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; First draft of =
S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability =
matrix.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; First draft of RSA =
PSS algorithm specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit mail list key =
distribution as a Proposed =
Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit HMAC key wrap =
description as Proposed =
Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit RSA OAEP =
algorithm specification as a Proposed =
Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sumbit AES algorithm =
specification as Proposed =
Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit X.400 CMS =
wrapper specification as a Proposed =
Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit X.400 =
transport as a Proposed =
Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Last call on CMS and =
ESS examples document.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sumbit update to =
CERT as Proposed Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Sumbit update to MSG =
as Proposed Standard.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; First draft of RSA =
KEM algorithm specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Last call on RSA PSS =
algorithm specification.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit RSA PSS =
algorithm specification as Proposed =
Standard<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>September =
04<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit CMS and ESS =
examples document as Informational =
RFC<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; First draft of =
S/MIME Capabilities Certificate =
Extension<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>October =
04<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Working Group Last =
Call for S/MIME Capabilities Certificate =
Extension<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>December =
04<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit S/MIME =
Capabilities Certificate Extension as Informational =
RFC<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>January =
05<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Final S/MIME version =
3.1 interoperability matrix <o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>February =
05<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Request advancement =
of CMS Algorithms to Draft =
Standard<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Request advancement =
of CMS to Draft Standard<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Request advancement =
of ESS to Draft Standard<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Request advancement =
of CERT to Draft Standard<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Request advancement =
of MSG to Draft Standard<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Last call on RSA KEM =
algorithm specification<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></pre><pre><fon=
t
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>January =
06<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3D"Courier New"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Submit RSA KEM =
algorithm specification as Proposed =
Standard<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre></div>

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Russ,<br>
<br>
The S/MIME examples ID has passed working group last call.&nbsp; We'd like
to move it IETF Last Call.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
spt<br>
<br>
-------- Original Message --------
<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" border="0">
  <tbody>
    <tr>
      <th valign="baseline" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Subject: </th>
      <td>I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-smime-examples-15.txt</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <th valign="baseline" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">Date: </th>
      <td>Wed, 25 Aug 2004 16:15:46 -0400</td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <th valign="baseline" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">From: </th>
      <td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Internet-Drafts@ietf.org">Internet-Drafts@ietf.org</a></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <th valign="baseline" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">To: </th>
      <td><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org">i-d-announce@ietf.org</a></td>
    </tr>
    <tr>
      <th valign="baseline" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">CC: </th>
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<br>
<br>
<pre>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the S/MIME Mail Security Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Examples of S/MIME Messages
	Author(s)	: P. Hoffman
	Filename	: draft-ietf-smime-examples-15.txt
	Pages		: 8
	Date		: 2004-8-25
	
This document gives examples of message bodies formatted using S/MIME.
Specifically, it has examples of Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS)
objects and S/MIME messages (including the MIME formatting).
It includes examples of many common CMS formats. The purpose of this document is to help increase interoperability for S/MIME and other protocols that rely on CMS.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-smime-examples-15.txt">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-smime-examples-15.txt</a>

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You can also visit <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce">https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce</a> 
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I'm going to forward the charter on to Russ with Tony's suggested
changes.&nbsp;&nbsp; As for the other issue of S/MIME gateways, we'll see how it
plays out in the other working group.<br>
<br>
Sean P. Turner wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid4133BB2C.8090602@ieca.com">
  <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;">
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All,<br>
  <br>
To include Stefan's work in the working group we need to modify the
working group's charter (we also needed to update the dates anyway
because some are way off).&nbsp; Attached is the proposed modification.&nbsp;
Please respond with any comments by&nbsp; Friday.<br>
  <br>
Cheers,<br>
  <br>
spt <br>
  <pre wrap="">
<hr width="90%" size="4">

S/MIME Mail Security (smime)

Chair:
     Sean Turner <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:turners@ieca.com">&lt;turners@ieca.com&gt;</a>
     Blake Ramsdell <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:blake@sendmail.com">&lt;blake@sendmail.com&gt;</a>


Security Area Director:
     Russ Housley <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:housley@vigilsec.com">&lt;housley@vigilsec.com&gt;</a>
     Steve Belovin <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:smb@research.att.com">&lt;smb@research.att.com&gt;</a>

Security Area Advisor:
     Russ Housley <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:housley@vigilsec.com">&lt;housley@vigilsec.com&gt;</a>

Mailing Lists:
     General Discussion: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ietf-smime@imc.org">ietf-smime@imc.org</a>
     To Subscribe:       <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ietf-smime-request@imc.org">ietf-smime-request@imc.org</a>
     Archive:            <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.imc.org/ietf-smime/">http://www.imc.org/ietf-smime/</a>

Description of Working Group:

The S/MIME Working Group has completed a series of Proposed Standards that comprise the S/MIME version 3.1 specification. As part of the specification update, a new suite of "mandatory to implement" algorithms was be selected. Current efforts update and build upon these base specifications.

The Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) (RFC 3852) is cryptographic algorithm independent, yet there is always more than one way to use any algorithm. To ensure interoperability, each algorithm should have a specification that describes its use with CMS. Specifications for the use of additional cryptographic algorithms will be developed.

To aid implementers, documents containing example output for CMS will be collected and published. Some of the examples will include structures and signed attributes defined in the Enhanced SecurityServices (ESS) (RFC 2634) document.

CMS, as well as S/MIME version 3 and later, permit the use of previously distributed symmetric key-encryption keys. Specifications for the distribution of symmetric key-encryption keys to multiple message recipients will be developed. Mail List Agents (MLAs) areone user of symmetric key-encryption keys. The specification will be algorithm independent.
  </pre>
</blockquote>
Stike the following<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid4133BB2C.8090602@ieca.com">
  <pre wrap="">
To aid initial determination of recipient's cryptographic capabilities a specification will be developed allowing S/MIME capabilities to be stored and asserted in X.509 certificates based on the X.509 certificate and CRL profile developed by the PKIX Working Group.
  </pre>
</blockquote>
<font face="Arial"><font color="#0000ff"><font size="2"><font
 color="#000000">And replace it with:</font><br>
<br>
To aid initial determination of&nbsp;<span class="983071719-31082004">a </span>recipient's
cryptographic<span class="983071719-31082004"> </span><span
 class="983071719-31082004">and other S/MIME related </span>capabilities<span
 class="983071719-31082004">,</span>&nbsp;<span class="351303419-31082004">a
</span>specification will be developed allowing&nbsp;<span
 class="983071719-31082004">these</span> capabilities to be&nbsp;<span
 class="983071719-31082004">distributed using method(s) in addition to
that currently&nbsp;<span class="351303419-31082004">specified</span></span></font></font></font>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid4133BB2C.8090602@ieca.com">
  <pre wrap="">
The working group will perform necessary interoperability testing to rogress the CMS and S/MIME specifications to Draft Standard. The CMS specification depends on the RFC 3280. This profile must progress to Draft Standard before CMS and the other S/MIME specifications can progress to Draft Standard. Assuming timely progress by the PKIX Working Group, the S/MIME specification can start progressing to Draft Standard in 2005.

Milestones:

History
     Submit CMS compressed data content type a Proposed Standard.
     Submit security label usage specification as Informational RFC.
     Submit elliptic curve algorithm specification as Informational RFC.
     Submit update to CMS as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit CMS Algorithms as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit AES key wrap algorithm description as Informational RFC.
     Last call on X.400 CMS wrapper specification.
     Last call on X.400 transport specification.
     Last call on HMAC key wrap description specification.
     Last call on RSA OAEP algorithm specification.
     Last call on AES algorithm specification.
     Last call on update to MSG.
     First draft of update to CERT.
     First draft of CMS and ESS examples document.
     First draft of S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix.
     First draft of RSA PSS algorithm specification.
     Submit mail list key distribution as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit HMAC key wrap description as Proposed Standard.
     Submit RSA OAEP algorithm specification as a Proposed Standard.
     Sumbit AES algorithm specification as Proposed Standard.
     Submit X.400 CMS wrapper specification as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit X.400 transport as a Proposed Standard.
     Last call on CMS and ESS examples document.
     Sumbit update to CERT as Proposed Standard.
     Sumbit update to MSG as Proposed Standard.
     First draft of RSA KEM algorithm specification.
     Last call on RSA PSS algorithm specification.
     Submit RSA PSS algorithm specification as Proposed Standard

September 04
     Submit CMS and ESS examples document as Informational RFC
     First draft of S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension

October 04
     Working Group Last Call for S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension

December 04
     Submit S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension as Informational RFC

January 05
     Final S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix 

February 05
     Request advancement of CMS Algorithms to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of CMS to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of ESS to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of CERT to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of MSG to Draft Standard
     Last call on RSA KEM algorithm specification

January 06
     Submit RSA KEM algorithm specification as Proposed Standard</pre>
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> You read past the part about this being useful for CMS but not for 
> S/MIME.   The situations where saving a few bytes is useful occur when 
> 1) the objects being signed are small, 2) signature values are small 
> (i.e. DSA/ECDSA, not RSA), and 3) encoding overhead is small (i.e. PER, 
> not BER/DER).  There are no existing applications in this space, and 
> thus no backwards compatibilty issues.  But CMS  and a newly defined 
> attribute can be applied to future applications without having any 
> impact on existing apps.

I don't think we are at a point to discuss whether some piece of
additional data creates or does not create in which area. 

- The proposed indication presents information that is already
  being carried in another indication.

- The proposed indication doesn't provide anything new. 

- No argument of a concrete need has been given. 

- All arguments concerning complexity of treatment are extreemly weak
  even without comparing to what has to be done already for CMS SignedData

- If one assumes the availability of a PER coder/decoder and a DER
  signature creation/validation at the same time, then complexity
  is even less an argument. 

- If someone has problems with embedded systems that maybe some
  very simple subset of BER and a much more limited syntax than
  SignedData could be used, why stay with CMS at all? 

- If you want to save data, then code all relevant information inside
  data, and not within attributes. 

- unless there is an existing example for that use, included as
  an example inside the text, I don't think that we are even at
  an experimental state.

- The proposition below about an alternative way does not mean
  at all that I think that the whole concept is useful at all, 
  or in other words, I just made a joke. 

> 
> The other Peter's suggestion:
> 
>     Time ::= CHOICE {
>         utcTime          UTCTime,
>         generalizedTime  GeneralizedTime,
> 	epochSeconds     INTEGER}
> 
> is fine with me, but I'm not sure existing applications would deal with 
> an unrecognized CHOICE value as gracefully as they would with an 
> unrecognized attribute.  To avoid problems, the S/MIME -msg spec would 
> have to state that epochSeconds MUST NOT be used by sending applications.

I guess you are right with your observation about potential
problems (cf my last point above).
 



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> 
> Thanks for this new information.  However, i am aware of smartcard 
> environments without mktime().

Who needs mktime to convert an Z-zone Generalizedtime or UTCTime to
some binary value? 

The example that I have shown used gmtime, this is certainly not
a complex function, it is just a small real thing.


> 
> Russ
> 
> At 12:14 AM 9/3/2004, Peter Gutmann wrote:
> >Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> writes:
> >
> > >1. Embedded systems may not have the rich set of functions that you are
> > >using here.
> >
> >As the author of the crypto toolkit that runs on a larger range of embedded
> >systems than any other [0], I can state that this point is invalid.  I've got
> >code running on systems without a clock that nevertheless still have
> >mktime() (OK, so you can't actually check the date against anything once
> >you've read it, but you can at least read it).  I've never encountered a
> >system where reading a UTCTime is a problem.
> >
> >Peter.
> >
> >[0] Until someone else proves otherwise :-).
> 
> 



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From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
To: ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
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I wrote:

>In other words in the 20-odd years that ASN.1 has been around, this pressing
>need to save a handful of bytes in time encodings has never been an issue.
>This suggests a simple solution...

Thinking about this a bit more, if the goal is to save space, why not combine
all of the mandatory attributes into a single meta-attribute:

compactAttributes ::= SEQUENCE {
  signingTime    GeneralisedTime,
  contentType    OBJECT IDENTIFIER,
  messageDigest  OCTET STRING
  }

This would save many, many times as much space as binaryTime, and considerably
simplify decoding, since there's only one meta-attribute that contains all of
the signing attributes, so you eliminate all of the extra OIDs and several
layers of encoding wrappers around the invidual attributes.

(And I'd still have this as Experimental, pending any actual user demand for 
 it).

Peter.



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From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
To: dpkemp@missi.ncsc.mil, ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
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"David P. Kemp" <dpkemp@missi.ncsc.mil> writes:

>There are no existing applications in this space

In other words in the 20-odd years that ASN.1 has been around, this pressing
need to save a handful of bytes in time encodings has never been an issue.
This suggests a simple solution...

The main reason why I object to something that's mostly just a gratuitously
incompatible re-encoding of an existing field is because it's being pushed as
a standards-track document.  Because of this, users will demand that it be
supported (even though they have no idea why they need it) simply because it's
a standards-track RFC, and it wouldn't have been made standards-track if there
wasn't some reason for having it even if we don't know what it is.
Implementors then have to support yet another attribute, yet another date
format, double the size of the date data in sigs because of the nead to
support both the existing and new format, act in some appropriate manner when
the two dates disagree (actually from existing experience with apps that
deliberately set inconsistent times in signed data that allows multiple time
fields, nothing ever checks this, they just pick one or the other date
arbitrarily), etc etc etc.

Now as you say above, the demand for this to date has been zero.  This
suggests that the correct track for the new time encoding is either
"Experimental" or "grab a private OID and go for it", to match the actual
demand from users.

Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> writes:

>However, i am aware of smartcard environments without mktime().

Since they are presumably also without a RTC (thus making the inability to
convert a UTCTime moot, since there's nothing to check it against), this
wouldn't appear to be a real problem.

(I have been informed in private mail of the existence of several C one-liners
 (and at least one in Fortran, this problem has been studied for awhile) to
 convert the ASN.1-style ASCII date to a binary format, so it's likely that
 the additional code needed to handle binary times would entail more overhead
 than a basic mktime()-equivalent).

Peter.



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Thanks for this new information.  However, i am aware of smartcard 
environments without mktime().

Russ

At 12:14 AM 9/3/2004, Peter Gutmann wrote:
>Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> writes:
>
> >1. Embedded systems may not have the rich set of functions that you are
> >using here.
>
>As the author of the crypto toolkit that runs on a larger range of embedded
>systems than any other [0], I can state that this point is invalid.  I've got
>code running on systems without a clock that nevertheless still have
>mktime() (OK, so you can't actually check the date against anything once
>you've read it, but you can at least read it).  I've never encountered a
>system where reading a UTCTime is a problem.
>
>Peter.
>
>[0] Until someone else proves otherwise :-).



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Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
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Tony,

I'm sorry, but I can't get away from the fact that I believe that you
oversimplify this issue.

Even if you do get passed the format issue by using a null signed
message I see an immediate problem in sorting out WHO is the signer of
the null signed message.

If you force the certified subject to be the signer (which you probably
need to if it is to work according to existing principles) then the
solution will be practically useless since you loose the ability to
automate the process to generate and distribute capabilities.

If you let the certificate issuer sign the null signed message on behalf
of the subject, then you probably need to define how you specify in the
message who's capabilities that are defined in the message and now we
have opened the can of worms for other options and variants as well.

And then you still need to define a new extension to point to this data.

Another problem is storage location and its automation. CRL is easily
configurable in a system because one CA has a limited set of CRLs to
produce (mostly only one) but here we have a concept where you store at
least one object per subject, and maybe many. And this makes
implementation far more complex than CRL storage and may include aspects
such as directory schema expansion and innovation to manage users with
renewed certs or multiple valid certs.

Comparing with CRLs are probably not that good to prove your point since
CRLs actually are enormously complex if you study all options with
segmented scope, indirect CRLs, delta CRLs, Revocation reasons,
revocation or hold status, invalidity dates and renewal frequencies,
etc..... A perfect example how the task to specify a signed list of
serial numbers expanded to Goliat's proportions.

The current draft doesn't require any new object identifiers; it is just
making use of an already defined data structure for sMIMECapabilities to
be used as certificate extension. Easy and simple!

I want to repeat that I'm NOT principally opposed towards discussing
good innovative solutions to solve dynamic capabilities expression, but
I still claim that it is too complex to mix with this simple spec, which
should be done before end of this year.

There is no reason why we need to cover dynamic capabilities in the same
RFC. You can't use the same extension format anyway since the format of
the current spec use the already established structure for the
sMIMECapabilities attribute. This can't be changed to include links to
dynamic data. You need to do that in a new extension anyway.

If this WG wants to do dynamic capabilities of certificates it is
perfectly OK to do that in a separate RFC.

And I'm not the guy to lead that effort.

Maybe you are? :-)

Stefan Santesson
Microsoft Security Center of Excellence (SCOE)
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com]
> Sent: den 3 september 2004 22:18
> To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org
> Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
> 
> Stefan:
> 
> I fully understand your reluctance (which I share) for proliferation
of
> scope.
> Please bear with me.
> 
> Your proposal requires an extension to the X.509 certificate syntax,
and
> it
> seems you have preliminary agreement from PKIX that S/MIME WG can do
that.
> This
> is very good (and I am humbled by your ability to do that!), but we
should
> make
> sure we exploit this opportunity well, so we do not have to return to
the
> well
> too often ;-).  To do that we need to consider what is quick and
simple to
> do
> today and also where we might go.  So I think this discussion now is
> valuable.
> 
> I cannot agree that this is complex, although I agree it CAN be made
> complex as
> you demonstrate.
> 
> The model here is the CRLDistribution point (with all its warts).
Those
> guys
> did not worry about whether the CRL would be available by LDAP, HTTP,
> SMTP, or
> whatever when they defined it.  They only worried about what the CRL
> format was
> to be.  In our case I propose we already have a format:  a null signed
> message.
> Maybe Denis will suggest an attribute certificate - but that can be
> carried in a
> null signed message too.  I suspect that if I posted a null signed
message
> on a
> website (and configured the HTTP content type correctly) it might even
> work
> today (??).  And frankly, if an organization is already distributing
CRL's
> by
> whatever method, allowing the same infrastructure to be used to
provide
> sMIMECapabilities in a null signed message is not much more work (and
it
> will
> also provide the full cert path, attribute certs, etc. if needed!).
The
> server
> just responds with a static null signed item.  Processing on receipt
is
> the same
> as the processing already implemented for incoming signed messages.
> 
> 
> I think there is a danger if we only propose to PKIX (and X.509) folks
> that the
> only way we can solve the sMIMECapabilities "problem" is just to stick
all
> the
> sMIMECapabilities into the cert.  I think we will get a negative
reaction.
> If
> it is one option where there are other options which are a bit more
> efficient,
> we have a better chance.  I have also mentioned that we should make
the
> extension more application-agnostic, I think this will also make it
more
> palatable, but that's another thread....
> 
> Tony
> 
> 
> | -----Original Message-----
> | From: Stefan Santesson [mailto:stefans@microsoft.com]
> | Sent: September 3, 2004 1:58 PM
> | To: Tony Capel; ietf-smime@imc.org
> | Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
> |
> |
> | Tony,
> |
> | Yes it looks like a small cute thing doesn't it. Dynamic
> | sMIMECapabilities!
> |
> | Well, I'm damaged by experience and I can really see this
> | take off in a million directions.
> |
> | First you will have the issue to sort out in what format and
> | structure you want to handle the data, meta data, signatures
> | etc for the dynamic capabilities, then you need to sort out
> | how you will structure the extension referring to this data
> | in certificates, and then also sort out what schemas can and
> | cannot be used to obtain the data, whether it is http, https,
> | ldap, ftp.
> |
> | Then we have already heard voices that we might need to
> | distinguish between capabilities for different applications
> | and then we need to define how we identify applications. Why
> | not then argue about how this data should be signed and if
> | there might be a reason to let different entities sign
> | different parts of the capabilities data.
> |
> | Then we can discuss how we would refer to the certificates
> | used to validate signatures on these signatures and what we
> | must do to allow dynamic linking to certificates in case some
> | certificates gets revoked or renewed.
> |
> | And I have yet not even touched the aspect of attribute
> | certificates whether they will be or not be, and how that
> | would be if it is....
> |
> | I can't prove that this will take time but I'm willing to
> | make a bet:-)
> |
> | What I say is that we should not hold back the simple and
> | straight forward use of an existing, well defined data structure.
> |
> | If this WG whish to solve dynamic access to authenticated
> | application oriented sMIMECapabilities, then it deserves it
> | own project.
> |
> | /Stefan
> |
> | > -----Original Message-----
> | > From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com]
> | > Sent: den 3 september 2004 17:42
> | > To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org
> | > Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
> | >
> | > Stefan:
> | >
> | > Thanks.  I don't think this is such a big suggestion.
> | >
> | > | [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however not a
> | > | marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication of
> | > | complexity.
> | > |
> | > | sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you introduce
> | > | storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify the
> | framework for
> | > | how that data would be authenticated. That is NOT a small thing.
> | >
> | > This does not require the server to create authenticated
> | data on-line,
> | the
> | > returned data can be static (i.e. pre-signed by the CA or
> | end entity,
> | or
> | > an
> | > attribute cert as suggested by Denis).  There is no difference in
> | > authentication framework complexity than if this data were
> | put in the
> | > cert itself. Whoever (CA
> | > or end entity ...) agrees that this is the list, they can create
and
> | sign
> | > the
> | > null message or attribute cert at that time.  This fixed
> | item is then
> | > stored in whatever server is used.  It is only changed when the
> | sMIMECapabilities
> | > are
> | > changed (or when the signing keys change of course).
> | >
> | >
> | > I believe Jim's objective in "Certificate Distribution
> | Specification"
> | > draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt, was to create something to be
used
> | to
> | > distribute certificates AND sMIMECapabilities.  It also raises the
> | issue
> | > of
> | > whether there needs to be a secure binding between the
> | sMIMECapabilities
> | > and the
> | > specific certificate instance(s)* (and not just a binding between
> | > sMIMECapabilities and the subjectName).
> | >
> | > A bit more discussion of attribute certificates might be in order
as
> | well.
> | >
> | >
> | > Tony
> | >
> | >
> | > * I don't believe this is done in CMS/MSG implementations at the
> | moment.
> | > I
> | > don't believe implementers have been told to retain any such
binding
> | even
> | > if
> | > they had it - I suspect the sMIMECapabilities when cached by end
> | systems
> | > is not
> | > retained in signed form - and there is no cert hash to bind it to
> | specific
> | > cert(s) (more complicated for dual keypair).  sMIMECapabilities
are
> | > probably cached under subjectName (???).  Your proposed method
> | > inherently
> | securely
> | > binds
> | > the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert and this
> | is a NICE
> | > THING, but I am not sure it is needed.  If it is, then additional
> | > considerations
> | are
> | > needed
> | > for indirect methods if they are added as suggested.
> | >
> |
> |
> 




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From: "Tony Capel" <capel@comgate.com>
To: "'Stefan Santesson'" <stefans@microsoft.com>, <ietf-smime@imc.org>
Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
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Stefan:

I fully understand your reluctance (which I share) for proliferation of scope.
Please bear with me.

Your proposal requires an extension to the X.509 certificate syntax, and it
seems you have preliminary agreement from PKIX that S/MIME WG can do that.  This
is very good (and I am humbled by your ability to do that!), but we should make
sure we exploit this opportunity well, so we do not have to return to the well
too often ;-).  To do that we need to consider what is quick and simple to do
today and also where we might go.  So I think this discussion now is valuable.

I cannot agree that this is complex, although I agree it CAN be made complex as
you demonstrate.

The model here is the CRLDistribution point (with all its warts).  Those guys
did not worry about whether the CRL would be available by LDAP, HTTP, SMTP, or
whatever when they defined it.  They only worried about what the CRL format was
to be.  In our case I propose we already have a format:  a null signed message.
Maybe Denis will suggest an attribute certificate - but that can be carried in a
null signed message too.  I suspect that if I posted a null signed message on a
website (and configured the HTTP content type correctly) it might even work
today (??).  And frankly, if an organization is already distributing CRL's by
whatever method, allowing the same infrastructure to be used to provide
sMIMECapabilities in a null signed message is not much more work (and it will
also provide the full cert path, attribute certs, etc. if needed!).  The server
just responds with a static null signed item.  Processing on receipt is the same
as the processing already implemented for incoming signed messages.


I think there is a danger if we only propose to PKIX (and X.509) folks that the
only way we can solve the sMIMECapabilities "problem" is just to stick all the
sMIMECapabilities into the cert.  I think we will get a negative reaction.  If
it is one option where there are other options which are a bit more efficient,
we have a better chance.  I have also mentioned that we should make the
extension more application-agnostic, I think this will also make it more
palatable, but that's another thread....

Tony


| -----Original Message-----
| From: Stefan Santesson [mailto:stefans@microsoft.com] 
| Sent: September 3, 2004 1:58 PM
| To: Tony Capel; ietf-smime@imc.org
| Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
| 
| 
| Tony,
| 
| Yes it looks like a small cute thing doesn't it. Dynamic 
| sMIMECapabilities!
| 
| Well, I'm damaged by experience and I can really see this 
| take off in a million directions.
| 
| First you will have the issue to sort out in what format and 
| structure you want to handle the data, meta data, signatures 
| etc for the dynamic capabilities, then you need to sort out 
| how you will structure the extension referring to this data 
| in certificates, and then also sort out what schemas can and 
| cannot be used to obtain the data, whether it is http, https, 
| ldap, ftp.
| 
| Then we have already heard voices that we might need to 
| distinguish between capabilities for different applications 
| and then we need to define how we identify applications. Why 
| not then argue about how this data should be signed and if 
| there might be a reason to let different entities sign 
| different parts of the capabilities data.
| 
| Then we can discuss how we would refer to the certificates 
| used to validate signatures on these signatures and what we 
| must do to allow dynamic linking to certificates in case some 
| certificates gets revoked or renewed.
| 
| And I have yet not even touched the aspect of attribute 
| certificates whether they will be or not be, and how that 
| would be if it is.... 
| 
| I can't prove that this will take time but I'm willing to 
| make a bet:-)
| 
| What I say is that we should not hold back the simple and 
| straight forward use of an existing, well defined data structure.
| 
| If this WG whish to solve dynamic access to authenticated 
| application oriented sMIMECapabilities, then it deserves it 
| own project.
| 
| /Stefan
| 
| > -----Original Message-----
| > From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com]
| > Sent: den 3 september 2004 17:42
| > To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org
| > Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
| > 
| > Stefan:
| > 
| > Thanks.  I don't think this is such a big suggestion.
| > 
| > | [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however not a 
| > | marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication of 
| > | complexity.
| > |
| > | sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you introduce 
| > | storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify the 
| framework for 
| > | how that data would be authenticated. That is NOT a small thing.
| > 
| > This does not require the server to create authenticated 
| data on-line,
| the
| > returned data can be static (i.e. pre-signed by the CA or 
| end entity,
| or
| > an
| > attribute cert as suggested by Denis).  There is no difference in 
| > authentication framework complexity than if this data were 
| put in the 
| > cert itself. Whoever (CA
| > or end entity ...) agrees that this is the list, they can create and
| sign
| > the
| > null message or attribute cert at that time.  This fixed 
| item is then 
| > stored in whatever server is used.  It is only changed when the
| sMIMECapabilities
| > are
| > changed (or when the signing keys change of course).
| > 
| > 
| > I believe Jim's objective in "Certificate Distribution 
| Specification" 
| > draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt, was to create something to be used
| to
| > distribute certificates AND sMIMECapabilities.  It also raises the
| issue
| > of
| > whether there needs to be a secure binding between the
| sMIMECapabilities
| > and the
| > specific certificate instance(s)* (and not just a binding between 
| > sMIMECapabilities and the subjectName).
| > 
| > A bit more discussion of attribute certificates might be in order as
| well.
| > 
| > 
| > Tony
| > 
| > 
| > * I don't believe this is done in CMS/MSG implementations at the
| moment.
| > I
| > don't believe implementers have been told to retain any such binding
| even
| > if
| > they had it - I suspect the sMIMECapabilities when cached by end
| systems
| > is not
| > retained in signed form - and there is no cert hash to bind it to
| specific
| > cert(s) (more complicated for dual keypair).  sMIMECapabilities are 
| > probably cached under subjectName (???).  Your proposed method 
| > inherently
| securely
| > binds
| > the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert and this 
| is a NICE 
| > THING, but I am not sure it is needed.  If it is, then additional 
| > considerations
| are
| > needed
| > for indirect methods if they are added as suggested.
| > 
| 
| 





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Peter Gutmann wrote:

>As Peter Sylvester has pointed out, in order to be compatible with existing
>apps, you'd need to include *both* attributes (the TLS WG has just had a debate
>about the 10-year old obsolete known-insecure SSLv2 protocol and why virtually
>everything still has to support it by default for backwards-compatibility, so
>you'll never get rid of the existing signing time). As a result, you won't save 
>a few bytes in the time encoding, you'll double the space through having to use 
>two different formats.
>

You read past the part about this being useful for CMS but not for 
S/MIME.   The situations where saving a few bytes is useful occur when 
1) the objects being signed are small, 2) signature values are small 
(i.e. DSA/ECDSA, not RSA), and 3) encoding overhead is small (i.e. PER, 
not BER/DER).  There are no existing applications in this space, and 
thus no backwards compatibilty issues.  But CMS  and a newly defined 
attribute can be applied to future applications without having any 
impact on existing apps.

The other Peter's suggestion:

    Time ::= CHOICE {
        utcTime          UTCTime,
        generalizedTime  GeneralizedTime,
	epochSeconds     INTEGER}

is fine with me, but I'm not sure existing applications would deal with 
an unrecognized CHOICE value as gracefully as they would with an 
unrecognized attribute.  To avoid problems, the S/MIME -msg spec would 
have to state that epochSeconds MUST NOT be used by sending applications.

Dave



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Tony,

Yes it looks like a small cute thing doesn't it. Dynamic
sMIMECapabilities!

Well, I'm damaged by experience and I can really see this take off in a
million directions.

First you will have the issue to sort out in what format and structure
you want to handle the data, meta data, signatures etc for the dynamic
capabilities, then you need to sort out how you will structure the
extension referring to this data in certificates, and then also sort out
what schemas can and cannot be used to obtain the data, whether it is
http, https, ldap, ftp.

Then we have already heard voices that we might need to distinguish
between capabilities for different applications and then we need to
define how we identify applications. Why not then argue about how this
data should be signed and if there might be a reason to let different
entities sign different parts of the capabilities data.

Then we can discuss how we would refer to the certificates used to
validate signatures on these signatures and what we must do to allow
dynamic linking to certificates in case some certificates gets revoked
or renewed.

And I have yet not even touched the aspect of attribute certificates
whether they will be or not be, and how that would be if it is.... 

I can't prove that this will take time but I'm willing to make a bet:-)

What I say is that we should not hold back the simple and straight
forward use of an existing, well defined data structure.

If this WG whish to solve dynamic access to authenticated application
oriented sMIMECapabilities, then it deserves it own project.

/Stefan

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com]
> Sent: den 3 september 2004 17:42
> To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org
> Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
> 
> Stefan:
> 
> Thanks.  I don't think this is such a big suggestion.
> 
> | [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however
> | not a marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication
> | of complexity.
> |
> | sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you
> | introduce storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify
> | the framework for how that data would be authenticated. That
> | is NOT a small thing.
> 
> This does not require the server to create authenticated data on-line,
the
> returned data can be static (i.e. pre-signed by the CA or end entity,
or
> an
> attribute cert as suggested by Denis).  There is no difference in
> authentication
> framework complexity than if this data were put in the cert itself.
> Whoever (CA
> or end entity ...) agrees that this is the list, they can create and
sign
> the
> null message or attribute cert at that time.  This fixed item is then
> stored in
> whatever server is used.  It is only changed when the
sMIMECapabilities
> are
> changed (or when the signing keys change of course).
> 
> 
> I believe Jim's objective in "Certificate Distribution Specification"
> draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt, was to create something to be used
to
> distribute certificates AND sMIMECapabilities.  It also raises the
issue
> of
> whether there needs to be a secure binding between the
sMIMECapabilities
> and the
> specific certificate instance(s)* (and not just a binding between
> sMIMECapabilities and the subjectName).
> 
> A bit more discussion of attribute certificates might be in order as
well.
> 
> 
> Tony
> 
> 
> * I don't believe this is done in CMS/MSG implementations at the
moment.
> I
> don't believe implementers have been told to retain any such binding
even
> if
> they had it - I suspect the sMIMECapabilities when cached by end
systems
> is not
> retained in signed form - and there is no cert hash to bind it to
specific
> cert(s) (more complicated for dual keypair).  sMIMECapabilities are
> probably
> cached under subjectName (???).  Your proposed method inherently
securely
> binds
> the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert and this is a NICE
> THING, but
> I am not sure it is needed.  If it is, then additional considerations
are
> needed
> for indirect methods if they are added as suggested.
> 




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From: "Tony Capel" <capel@comgate.com>
To: "'Stefan Santesson'" <stefans@microsoft.com>, <ietf-smime@imc.org>
Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
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Stefan:

Thanks.  I don't think this is such a big suggestion.

| [Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however 
| not a marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication 
| of complexity.
| 
| sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you 
| introduce storage of dynamic data, then you need to specify 
| the framework for how that data would be authenticated. That 
| is NOT a small thing.

This does not require the server to create authenticated data on-line, the
returned data can be static (i.e. pre-signed by the CA or end entity, or an
attribute cert as suggested by Denis).  There is no difference in authentication
framework complexity than if this data were put in the cert itself.  Whoever (CA
or end entity ...) agrees that this is the list, they can create and sign the
null message or attribute cert at that time.  This fixed item is then stored in
whatever server is used.  It is only changed when the sMIMECapabilities are
changed (or when the signing keys change of course).


I believe Jim's objective in "Certificate Distribution Specification"
draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt, was to create something to be used to
distribute certificates AND sMIMECapabilities.  It also raises the issue of
whether there needs to be a secure binding between the sMIMECapabilities and the
specific certificate instance(s)* (and not just a binding between
sMIMECapabilities and the subjectName).

A bit more discussion of attribute certificates might be in order as well.


Tony

 
* I don't believe this is done in CMS/MSG implementations at the moment.  I
don't believe implementers have been told to retain any such binding even if
they had it - I suspect the sMIMECapabilities when cached by end systems is not
retained in signed form - and there is no cert hash to bind it to specific
cert(s) (more complicated for dual keypair).  sMIMECapabilities are probably
cached under subjectName (???).  Your proposed method inherently securely binds
the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert and this is a NICE THING, but
I am not sure it is needed.  If it is, then additional considerations are needed
for indirect methods if they are added as suggested.





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Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 15:28:35 +0100
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From: "Stefan Santesson" <stefans@microsoft.com>
To: "Denis Pinkas" <Denis.Pinkas@bull.net>
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Denis,

In-line;


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:Denis.Pinkas@bull.net]
> Sent: den 3 september 2004 15:51
> To: Stefan Santesson
> Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org
> Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
> 
> Stefan,
> 
> > Denis,
> >
> > You basically repeat the same type of argumentation with I summarize
as:
> >
> > 1) You confirm the need to in some way use information in a
certificate
> > to help indicate capabilities of the subject
> >
> > 2) You point out that in some cases it is not suitable to put
> > capabilities directly in certificates since it may require too much
> > revocation and re-issuance of certificates.
> >
> > 3) You conclude that because of 2) we need to create an expanded
work to
> > dynamically changeable capabilities structure. In addition to this
you
> > suggest use of Attribute certificates to solve this expansion of
scope.
> 
> This is a nice summary.
> 
[Stefan] Thanks, it makes the discussion easier :-)

> > My reply is the same again. I do not oppose the discussion of some
kind
> > of dynamic solution for capabilities but it would be a magnitude
more
> > complex to invent and specify and it would probably take years to
> > complete (my guess).
> 
> It is your guess. I would have a different guess. :-)

[Stefan] Of course this is a guess. But it is based on experience. It is
at least more complex than the logotype extension which took over 2
years to complete :-)
> 
> > That should not stop us from doing the simple stuff when the simple
> > stuff is an adequate response to the need. Putting the current
> > sMIMECapabilities attribute in the cert is a well tested method that
> > works for the majority of cases.
> 
> It may work nicely in small environnements.
> 

[Stefan] This works very well also in large organizations. And I know
this for a fact since I have it in my own S/MIME certificate and we are
50.000 users. It has been in use for a long time. It has proven to be
very useful and it has never caused any problems of the kind you
mention.

You can see it for your self in my certificate below:
(cut out and save as a file with .cer extension)

-----BEGIN CERTIFICATE-----
MIIFwzCCBKugAwIBAgIKE/lfpwABAAFNjjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQUFADAvMS0wKwYD
VQQDEyRNaWNyb3NvZnQgSW50cmFuZXQgTGV2ZWwgMiBVc2VyIENBIDIwHhcNMDQw
NTEzMDk0MTI2WhcNMDUwNTEzMDk0MTI2WjCBiTETMBEGCgmSJomT8ixkARkWA2Nv
bTEZMBcGCgmSJomT8ixkARkWCW1pY3Jvc29mdDEUMBIGCgmSJomT8ixkARkWBGNv
cnAxFjAUBgoJkiaJk/IsZAEZFgZldXJvcGUxDjAMBgNVBAMTBVVzZXJzMRkwFwYD
VQQDExBTdGVmYW4gU2FudGVzc29uMIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKB
gQDJ0aSfbuPMZOP/liMfopMXIUtaOmClzXCulOhfp3V6CcimCmGbvNzfGYfirmE3
0rH/+uT6e/CB5lo4rXFLqufvDV++bEWQJsIIS6KG4Bn0Cib1G4ebp8wrED2oJDx3
E2WeI40/jQALjcyp3OYmrNX4535Nq9SOMglY2/W3lr+E+QIDAQABo4IDCDCCAwQw
CwYDVR0PBAQDAgeAMEQGCSqGSIb3DQEJDwQ3MDUwDgYIKoZIhvcNAwICAgCAMA4G
CCqGSIb3DQMEAgIAgDAHBgUrDgMCBzAKBggqhkiG9w0DBzArBgNVHSUEJDAiBgor
BgEEAYI3KgIBBgorBgEEAYI3FAICBggrBgEFBQcDAjA/BgkrBgEEAYI3FQcEMjAw
BigrBgEEAYI3FQiDz4lNrfIChaGfDIL6yn2B4ft0gU+J9vG2YYHbk8USAgFkAgEM
MDcGCSsGAQQBgjcVCgQqMCgwDAYKKwYBBAGCNyoCATAMBgorBgEEAYI3FAICMAoG
CCsGAQUFBwMCMDAGA1UdEQQpMCegJQYKKwYBBAGCNxQCA6AXDBVzdGVmYW5zQG1p
Y3Jvc29mdC5jb20wHQYDVR0OBBYEFPCxFTnSeoK5luwmPmXdS4u+EeEcMB8GA1Ud
IwQYMBaAFJPA18nU2Ss3YUqCdd0M/GqnUpx1MIHBBgNVHR8EgbkwgbYwgbOggbCg
ga2GSmh0dHA6Ly9jb3JwcGtpL2NybC9NaWNyb3NvZnQlMjBJbnRyYW5ldCUyMExl
dmVsJTIwMiUyMFVzZXIlMjBDQSUyMDIoMSkuY3Jshl9odHRwOi8vY3JsLm1pY3Jv
c29mdC5jb20vcGtpL21zY29ycC9jcmwvTWljcm9zb2Z0JTIwSW50cmFuZXQlMjBM
ZXZlbCUyMDIlMjBVc2VyJTIwQ0ElMjAyKDEpLmNybDCB0QYIKwYBBQUHAQEEgcQw
gcEwVgYIKwYBBQUHMAKGSmh0dHA6Ly9jb3JwcGtpL2FpYS9NaWNyb3NvZnQlMjBJ
bnRyYW5ldCUyMExldmVsJTIwMiUyMFVzZXIlMjBDQSUyMDIoMSkuY3J0MGcGCCsG
AQUFBzAChltodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm1pY3Jvc29mdC5jb20vcGtpL21zY29ycC9NaWNy
b3NvZnQlMjBJbnRyYW5ldCUyMExldmVsJTIwMiUyMFVzZXIlMjBDQSUyMDIoMSku
Y3J0MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAA4IBAQCifqY1BQk7if7RnSHV8545pZkSKKn5QPjQ
jIcc2JwISRu57Y+B9DOTdtI3ECEh73smz5DDUtTYcfebE7KC5Vt3J0zON8XWiAFl
lPwxEsWdl+/XX2UkOZSOwZ1GIa/BtUOR76P9kRuxvRcfaejriHYupbsxHq2CuT6d
fA32iWi/uAu6r9QzR9BPuYi4ht97s1xJ3UproChH+aPFXfPyyFNedkgVdI6vOV0J
yZSm9tXBuMa1IP4WNjDFnz8j3YXbMmK8x225vqW308mtFtowbIHHcpVjrigMqpDm
MSwdE0UK3hjIllvmAMEfVX9Y5ixrBQFc9oW6tkoFC1/IVOoID0tJ
-----END CERTIFICATE-----
 

> However, there is currently insufficient text in the security
> considerations
> section to highlight the need of revocation, the document is using the
> word
> renew:
> 
>     Certification Authorities should therefore *renew* a certificate
>     including S/MIME Capabilities, if the subjects cryptographic
>     capabilities changes in a way that is no longer compatible with
the
>     current certificate.
> 
> The security considerations section should mention that:
> 
>   1) this extension is "adequate", if the same key is not used with
>      other encryption applications (and explain why),
> 
>   2) dynamic references would then be another solution to this
problem.
> 
[Stefan] Thanks for the valuable input. I have no problem updating and
clarifying the security considerations section. I'm however not sure I
understand what you mean by 1) but I'm positive that we can sort it out.

I definitely agree to 2)

> Denis
> 
> > My ambition and time commitment on this is only to complete that
task
> > that was agreed at last IETF and added to the charter. If the S/MIME
WG
> > whish to design an expanded solution for dynamic references to
> > sMIMECApabilities then I suggest that the WG discuss that in the
context
> > of another new work item with another editor.
> >
> > /Stefan
> >
> >
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:Denis.Pinkas@bull.net]
> >>Sent: den 3 september 2004 11:05
> >>To: Stefan Santesson
> >>Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org
> >>Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
> >>
> >>Stefan,
> >>
> >>I am re-using the e-mail from Tony to comment.
> >>
> >>
> >>>Stefan:
> >>>
> >>>Thanks for your reply.  I did understand that your proposal was
> >>
> > optional
> >
> >>and
> >>
> >>>need only be used by those interested in doing so.  I also
> >>
> > understand
> >
> >>your
> >>
> >>>reluctance to allow the scope to get out of hand...
> >>>
> >>>I was trying to make two main points:
> >>>
> >>>1.  The proposal offers one (optional) method to provide
> >>
> >>sMIMECapabilities:  by
> >>
> >>>inserting them directly in the cert.  I think it would be valuable
> >>
> > to
> >
> >>add the
> >>
> >>>ability to specify a location where sMIMECapabilities can be
> >>
> > obtained
> >
> >>(allow
> >>
> >>>dynamic methods to be specified). Zero, one or more of any of these
> >>
> >>methods
> >>
> >>>could be specified at the option of the organization issuing the
> >>
> > certs.
> >
> >>I also believe that placing the sMIMECapabilities directly within
the
> >>certificate is a bad idea. The same encryption key may be used with
> >
> > other
> >
> >>applications (e.g a virtual safe, a market place). If any of these
> >>applications is changing we would need to revoke the public key
> >>certificate.
> >>Attributes certificates have been invented to solve this issue.
> >>
> >>It would be better to include INSTEAD (and thus not in ADDITION) a
> >
> > pointer
> >
> >>to these sMIMECapabilities (and also vitualSafeCapabilities,
> >>marketPlaceCapabilities, etc ...)
> >>
> >>
> >>>2.  If you do 1. above, the dynamic methods that can be specified
> >>
> > should
> >
> >>ideally
> >>
> >>>be similar/integrated with the general methods (that is, methods
> >>
> >>available even
> >>
> >>>if you do not have a cert) available to obtain certs and paths as
> >>
> > well
> >
> >>(and this
> >>
> >>>was Jim Shaads old proposal).  And nowadays provisions for DNS +
> >>
> > XKMS
> >
> >>might be
> >>
> >>>included as noted by others in this list.  The reason for this is
> >>
> > that
> >
> >>in many
> >>
> >>>cases when you need sMIMECapabilities, you also need the cert and
> >>
> > path
> >
> >>as well
> >>
> >>>(this was the point I was trying to make at the end of my previous
> >>
> > e-
> >
> >>mail), and
> >>
> >>>we should minimize the proliferation of methods.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>The problem with having the data in the cert itself is that if an
> >>
> >>enterprise
> >>
> >>>updates their desktop software and needs to update any of the
> >>
> >>sMIMECapabilities
> >>
> >>>information, they will need to re-issue ALL of their certs and this
> >>
> > is a
> >
> >>VERY
> >>
> >>>big thing for large organizations.  As far as using "silent"
> >>
> >>revocation/renewal
> >>
> >>>to limit CRL size, while this may be supported in some CA software,
> >>
> >>doing so
> >>
> >>>leads to other problems (e.g. having multiple apparently valid
certs
> >>
> > and
> >
> >>>differentiating between them.  Potential security holes if the
> >>
> >>sMIMECapabilities
> >>
> >>>change has a security impact...)
> >>>
> >>>By using an sMIMECapabilities distribution point, the information
> >>
> > itself
> >
> >>is no
> >>
> >>>longer in the cert, avoiding the cert reissue issue.
> >>
> >>Yes. This is the main idea.
> >>
> >>Of course the next question is how to make sure that the
> >
> > sMIMECapabilities
> >
> >>placed at that pointer are correct. They could be signed using a
> >>certificate
> >>indicated in the sMIMECapabilitiesDP (i.e. sMIMECapabilities
> >
> > Distribution
> >
> >>Point). The signer of that structure could be the CA issuing the
> >>certificate, but does not need to be so.
> >>
> >>The signed structure of the sMIMECapabilities would look like a
> >
> > special
> >
> >>kind
> >>of Attribute Certificate, rather than a CMS signed message.
> >>
> >>Denis
> >>
> >> > To take your point about
> >>
> >>>keeping it simple, the distribution point could return a null CMS
> >>
> >>message signed
> >>
> >>>by the CA or the end-entity (this provides additional options for
> >>
> > the
> >
> >>>enterprise); and to address other comments in the list, could point
> >>
> > to a
> >
> >>DNS SRV
> >>
> >>>for XKMS.  Again, none of these would be mandatory; as you say, the
> >>
> >>originating
> >>
> >>>enterprise selects the method(s) they choose to support. There may
> >>
> > be an
> >
> >>issue
> >>
> >>>about securely binding the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the
> >>
> > cert
> >
> >>- this
> >>
> >>>is discussed in Jim Schaads expired draft.
> >>>
> >>>Somehow I wonder if a combination of your draft and an updated
> >>
> > version
> >
> >>of Jim's
> >>
> >>>(with less reliance on only the directory server method) would not
> >>
> > be
> >
> >>ideal??
> >>
> >>>Tony
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> 




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Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 15:51:04 +0200
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Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
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Stefan,

> Denis,
> 
> You basically repeat the same type of argumentation with I summarize as:
> 
> 1) You confirm the need to in some way use information in a certificate
> to help indicate capabilities of the subject
> 
> 2) You point out that in some cases it is not suitable to put
> capabilities directly in certificates since it may require too much
> revocation and re-issuance of certificates.
> 
> 3) You conclude that because of 2) we need to create an expanded work to
> dynamically changeable capabilities structure. In addition to this you
> suggest use of Attribute certificates to solve this expansion of scope.

This is a nice summary.

> My reply is the same again. I do not oppose the discussion of some kind
> of dynamic solution for capabilities but it would be a magnitude more
> complex to invent and specify and it would probably take years to
> complete (my guess).

It is your guess. I would have a different guess. :-)

> That should not stop us from doing the simple stuff when the simple
> stuff is an adequate response to the need. Putting the current
> sMIMECapabilities attribute in the cert is a well tested method that
> works for the majority of cases.

It may work nicely in small environnements.

However, there is currently insufficient text in the security considerations 
section to highlight the need of revocation, the document is using the word 
renew:

    Certification Authorities should therefore *renew* a certificate
    including S/MIME Capabilities, if the subjects cryptographic
    capabilities changes in a way that is no longer compatible with the
    current certificate.

The security considerations section should mention that:

  1) this extension is "adequate", if the same key is not used with
     other encryption applications (and explain why),

  2) dynamic references would then be another solution to this problem.

Denis

> My ambition and time commitment on this is only to complete that task
> that was agreed at last IETF and added to the charter. If the S/MIME WG
> whish to design an expanded solution for dynamic references to
> sMIMECApabilities then I suggest that the WG discuss that in the context
> of another new work item with another editor.
> 
> /Stefan
>  
> 
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:Denis.Pinkas@bull.net]
>>Sent: den 3 september 2004 11:05
>>To: Stefan Santesson
>>Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org
>>Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
>>
>>Stefan,
>>
>>I am re-using the e-mail from Tony to comment.
>>
>>
>>>Stefan:
>>>
>>>Thanks for your reply.  I did understand that your proposal was
>>
> optional
> 
>>and
>>
>>>need only be used by those interested in doing so.  I also
>>
> understand
> 
>>your
>>
>>>reluctance to allow the scope to get out of hand...
>>>
>>>I was trying to make two main points:
>>>
>>>1.  The proposal offers one (optional) method to provide
>>
>>sMIMECapabilities:  by
>>
>>>inserting them directly in the cert.  I think it would be valuable
>>
> to
> 
>>add the
>>
>>>ability to specify a location where sMIMECapabilities can be
>>
> obtained
> 
>>(allow
>>
>>>dynamic methods to be specified). Zero, one or more of any of these
>>
>>methods
>>
>>>could be specified at the option of the organization issuing the
>>
> certs.
> 
>>I also believe that placing the sMIMECapabilities directly within the
>>certificate is a bad idea. The same encryption key may be used with
> 
> other
> 
>>applications (e.g a virtual safe, a market place). If any of these
>>applications is changing we would need to revoke the public key
>>certificate.
>>Attributes certificates have been invented to solve this issue.
>>
>>It would be better to include INSTEAD (and thus not in ADDITION) a
> 
> pointer
> 
>>to these sMIMECapabilities (and also vitualSafeCapabilities,
>>marketPlaceCapabilities, etc ...)
>>
>>
>>>2.  If you do 1. above, the dynamic methods that can be specified
>>
> should
> 
>>ideally
>>
>>>be similar/integrated with the general methods (that is, methods
>>
>>available even
>>
>>>if you do not have a cert) available to obtain certs and paths as
>>
> well
> 
>>(and this
>>
>>>was Jim Shaads old proposal).  And nowadays provisions for DNS +
>>
> XKMS
> 
>>might be
>>
>>>included as noted by others in this list.  The reason for this is
>>
> that
> 
>>in many
>>
>>>cases when you need sMIMECapabilities, you also need the cert and
>>
> path
> 
>>as well
>>
>>>(this was the point I was trying to make at the end of my previous
>>
> e-
> 
>>mail), and
>>
>>>we should minimize the proliferation of methods.
>>>
>>>
>>>The problem with having the data in the cert itself is that if an
>>
>>enterprise
>>
>>>updates their desktop software and needs to update any of the
>>
>>sMIMECapabilities
>>
>>>information, they will need to re-issue ALL of their certs and this
>>
> is a
> 
>>VERY
>>
>>>big thing for large organizations.  As far as using "silent"
>>
>>revocation/renewal
>>
>>>to limit CRL size, while this may be supported in some CA software,
>>
>>doing so
>>
>>>leads to other problems (e.g. having multiple apparently valid certs
>>
> and
> 
>>>differentiating between them.  Potential security holes if the
>>
>>sMIMECapabilities
>>
>>>change has a security impact...)
>>>
>>>By using an sMIMECapabilities distribution point, the information
>>
> itself
> 
>>is no
>>
>>>longer in the cert, avoiding the cert reissue issue.
>>
>>Yes. This is the main idea.
>>
>>Of course the next question is how to make sure that the
> 
> sMIMECapabilities
> 
>>placed at that pointer are correct. They could be signed using a
>>certificate
>>indicated in the sMIMECapabilitiesDP (i.e. sMIMECapabilities
> 
> Distribution
> 
>>Point). The signer of that structure could be the CA issuing the
>>certificate, but does not need to be so.
>>
>>The signed structure of the sMIMECapabilities would look like a
> 
> special
> 
>>kind
>>of Attribute Certificate, rather than a CMS signed message.
>>
>>Denis
>>
>> > To take your point about
>>
>>>keeping it simple, the distribution point could return a null CMS
>>
>>message signed
>>
>>>by the CA or the end-entity (this provides additional options for
>>
> the
> 
>>>enterprise); and to address other comments in the list, could point
>>
> to a
> 
>>DNS SRV
>>
>>>for XKMS.  Again, none of these would be mandatory; as you say, the
>>
>>originating
>>
>>>enterprise selects the method(s) they choose to support. There may
>>
> be an
> 
>>issue
>>
>>>about securely binding the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the
>>
> cert
> 
>>- this
>>
>>>is discussed in Jim Schaads expired draft.
>>>
>>>Somehow I wonder if a combination of your draft and an updated
>>
> version
> 
>>of Jim's
>>
>>>(with less reliance on only the directory server method) would not
>>
> be
> 
>>ideal??
>>
>>>Tony
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
> 
> 




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Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
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From: "Stefan Santesson" <stefans@microsoft.com>
To: "Denis Pinkas" <Denis.Pinkas@bull.net>
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Denis,

You basically repeat the same type of argumentation with I summarize as:

1) You confirm the need to in some way use information in a certificate
to help indicate capabilities of the subject

2) You point out that in some cases it is not suitable to put
capabilities directly in certificates since it may require too much
revocation and re-issuance of certificates.

3) You conclude that because of 2) we need to create an expanded work to
dynamically changeable capabilities structure. In addition to this you
suggest use of Attribute certificates to solve this expansion of scope.


My reply is the same again. I do not oppose the discussion of some kind
of dynamic solution for capabilities but it would be a magnitude more
complex to invent and specify and it would probably take years to
complete (my guess).

That should not stop us from doing the simple stuff when the simple
stuff is an adequate response to the need. Putting the current
sMIMECapabilities attribute in the cert is a well tested method that
works for the majority of cases.

My ambition and time commitment on this is only to complete that task
that was agreed at last IETF and added to the charter. If the S/MIME WG
whish to design an expanded solution for dynamic references to
sMIMECApabilities then I suggest that the WG discuss that in the context
of another new work item with another editor.

/Stefan
 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:Denis.Pinkas@bull.net]
> Sent: den 3 september 2004 11:05
> To: Stefan Santesson
> Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org
> Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
> 
> Stefan,
> 
> I am re-using the e-mail from Tony to comment.
> 
> > Stefan:
> >
> > Thanks for your reply.  I did understand that your proposal was
optional
> and
> > need only be used by those interested in doing so.  I also
understand
> your
> > reluctance to allow the scope to get out of hand...
> >
> > I was trying to make two main points:
> >
> > 1.  The proposal offers one (optional) method to provide
> sMIMECapabilities:  by
> > inserting them directly in the cert.  I think it would be valuable
to
> add the
> > ability to specify a location where sMIMECapabilities can be
obtained
> (allow
> > dynamic methods to be specified). Zero, one or more of any of these
> methods
> > could be specified at the option of the organization issuing the
certs.
> 
> I also believe that placing the sMIMECapabilities directly within the
> certificate is a bad idea. The same encryption key may be used with
other
> applications (e.g a virtual safe, a market place). If any of these
> applications is changing we would need to revoke the public key
> certificate.
> Attributes certificates have been invented to solve this issue.
> 
> It would be better to include INSTEAD (and thus not in ADDITION) a
pointer
> to these sMIMECapabilities (and also vitualSafeCapabilities,
> marketPlaceCapabilities, etc ...)
> 
> > 2.  If you do 1. above, the dynamic methods that can be specified
should
> ideally
> > be similar/integrated with the general methods (that is, methods
> available even
> > if you do not have a cert) available to obtain certs and paths as
well
> (and this
> > was Jim Shaads old proposal).  And nowadays provisions for DNS +
XKMS
> might be
> > included as noted by others in this list.  The reason for this is
that
> in many
> > cases when you need sMIMECapabilities, you also need the cert and
path
> as well
> > (this was the point I was trying to make at the end of my previous
e-
> mail), and
> > we should minimize the proliferation of methods.
> >
> >
> > The problem with having the data in the cert itself is that if an
> enterprise
> > updates their desktop software and needs to update any of the
> sMIMECapabilities
> > information, they will need to re-issue ALL of their certs and this
is a
> VERY
> > big thing for large organizations.  As far as using "silent"
> revocation/renewal
> > to limit CRL size, while this may be supported in some CA software,
> doing so
> > leads to other problems (e.g. having multiple apparently valid certs
and
> > differentiating between them.  Potential security holes if the
> sMIMECapabilities
> > change has a security impact...)
> >
> > By using an sMIMECapabilities distribution point, the information
itself
> is no
> > longer in the cert, avoiding the cert reissue issue.
> 
> Yes. This is the main idea.
> 
> Of course the next question is how to make sure that the
sMIMECapabilities
> placed at that pointer are correct. They could be signed using a
> certificate
> indicated in the sMIMECapabilitiesDP (i.e. sMIMECapabilities
Distribution
> Point). The signer of that structure could be the CA issuing the
> certificate, but does not need to be so.
> 
> The signed structure of the sMIMECapabilities would look like a
special
> kind
> of Attribute Certificate, rather than a CMS signed message.
> 
> Denis
> 
>  > To take your point about
> > keeping it simple, the distribution point could return a null CMS
> message signed
> > by the CA or the end-entity (this provides additional options for
the
> > enterprise); and to address other comments in the list, could point
to a
> DNS SRV
> > for XKMS.  Again, none of these would be mandatory; as you say, the
> originating
> > enterprise selects the method(s) they choose to support. There may
be an
> issue
> > about securely binding the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the
cert
> - this
> > is discussed in Jim Schaads expired draft.
> >
> > Somehow I wonder if a combination of your draft and an updated
version
> of Jim's
> > (with less reliance on only the directory server method) would not
be
> ideal??
> >
> > Tony
> >
> >
> >
> 




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Stefan,

I am re-using the e-mail from Tony to comment.

> Stefan:
> 
> Thanks for your reply.  I did understand that your proposal was optional and
> need only be used by those interested in doing so.  I also understand your
> reluctance to allow the scope to get out of hand...
> 
> I was trying to make two main points:
> 
> 1.  The proposal offers one (optional) method to provide sMIMECapabilities:  by
> inserting them directly in the cert.  I think it would be valuable to add the
> ability to specify a location where sMIMECapabilities can be obtained (allow
> dynamic methods to be specified). Zero, one or more of any of these methods
> could be specified at the option of the organization issuing the certs.

I also believe that placing the sMIMECapabilities directly within the 
certificate is a bad idea. The same encryption key may be used with other 
applications (e.g a virtual safe, a market place). If any of these 
applications is changing we would need to revoke the public key certificate. 
Attributes certificates have been invented to solve this issue.

It would be better to include INSTEAD (and thus not in ADDITION) a pointer 
to these sMIMECapabilities (and also vitualSafeCapabilities, 
marketPlaceCapabilities, etc ...)

> 2.  If you do 1. above, the dynamic methods that can be specified should ideally
> be similar/integrated with the general methods (that is, methods available even
> if you do not have a cert) available to obtain certs and paths as well (and this
> was Jim Shaads old proposal).  And nowadays provisions for DNS + XKMS might be
> included as noted by others in this list.  The reason for this is that in many
> cases when you need sMIMECapabilities, you also need the cert and path as well
> (this was the point I was trying to make at the end of my previous e-mail), and
> we should minimize the proliferation of methods.
> 
> 
> The problem with having the data in the cert itself is that if an enterprise
> updates their desktop software and needs to update any of the sMIMECapabilities
> information, they will need to re-issue ALL of their certs and this is a VERY
> big thing for large organizations.  As far as using "silent" revocation/renewal
> to limit CRL size, while this may be supported in some CA software, doing so
> leads to other problems (e.g. having multiple apparently valid certs and
> differentiating between them.  Potential security holes if the sMIMECapabilities
> change has a security impact...)
> 
> By using an sMIMECapabilities distribution point, the information itself is no
> longer in the cert, avoiding the cert reissue issue.  

Yes. This is the main idea.

Of course the next question is how to make sure that the sMIMECapabilities 
placed at that pointer are correct. They could be signed using a certificate 
indicated in the sMIMECapabilitiesDP (i.e. sMIMECapabilities Distribution 
Point). The signer of that structure could be the CA issuing the 
certificate, but does not need to be so.

The signed structure of the sMIMECapabilities would look like a special kind 
of Attribute Certificate, rather than a CMS signed message.

Denis

 > To take your point about
> keeping it simple, the distribution point could return a null CMS message signed
> by the CA or the end-entity (this provides additional options for the
> enterprise); and to address other comments in the list, could point to a DNS SRV
> for XKMS.  Again, none of these would be mandatory; as you say, the originating
> enterprise selects the method(s) they choose to support. There may be an issue
> about securely binding the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert - this
> is discussed in Jim Schaads expired draft.
> 
> Somehow I wonder if a combination of your draft and an updated version of Jim's
> (with less reliance on only the directory server method) would not be ideal??
> 
> Tony
> 
> 
> 




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From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
To: housley@vigilsec.com, Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org
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Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> writes:

>1. Embedded systems may not have the rich set of functions that you are
>using here.

As the author of the crypto toolkit that runs on a larger range of embedded
systems than any other [0], I can state that this point is invalid.  I've got
code running on systems without a clock that nevertheless still have 
mktime() (OK, so you can't actually check the date against anything once
you've read it, but you can at least read it).  I've never encountered a 
system where reading a UTCTime is a problem.

Peter.

[0] Until someone else proves otherwise :-).



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From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
To: dpkemp@missi.ncsc.mil, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
Cc: housley@vigilsec.com, ietf-smime@imc.org
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"David P. Kemp" <dpkemp@missi.ncsc.mil> writes:

>The one sentence omitted from what you quote below states that it DOES go beyond 
>2038.  

Yeah, sorry, it was late at night and I read through it very quickly.

>The reason for a binary attribute in the first place is primarily space 
>efficiency.

As Peter Sylvester has pointed out, in order to be compatible with existing
apps, you'd need to include *both* attributes (the TLS WG has just had a debate
about the 10-year old obsolete known-insecure SSLv2 protocol and why virtually
everything still has to support it by default for backwards-compatibility, so
you'll never get rid of the existing signing time). As a result, you won't save 
a few bytes in the time encoding, you'll double the space through having to use 
two different formats.

In addition the space saving is insignificant, a few bytes.  I can save the
same amount by not encoding the optional NULL parameter in algorithm 
identifiers, and that without breaking backwards compatibility like 
binary-time does.

If saving a few bytes really is so critically important then this should be
pursued by creating a new ASN.1 time type so that everyone may benefit from 
it.  If it's part of the standard time CHOICE then it can be used everywhere 
where UTC/GeneralisedTime is currently used.

Peter.



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In-line;

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com]
> Sent: den 2 september 2004 18:54
> To: Stefan Santesson; ietf-smime@imc.org
> Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
> 
> Stefan:
> 
> Thanks for your reply.  I did understand that your proposal was
optional
> and
> need only be used by those interested in doing so.  I also understand
your
> reluctance to allow the scope to get out of hand...
> 
> I was trying to make two main points:
> 
> 1.  The proposal offers one (optional) method to provide
> sMIMECapabilities:  by
> inserting them directly in the cert.  I think it would be valuable to
add
> the
> ability to specify a location where sMIMECapabilities can be obtained
> (allow
> dynamic methods to be specified). Zero, one or more of any of these
> methods
> could be specified at the option of the organization issuing the
certs.
> 

[Stefan] I can see the benefits from that. This is however not a
marginal expansion of scope. It is huge multiplication of complexity.

sMIMECapabilities need to be authenticated. So if you introduce storage
of dynamic data, then you need to specify the framework for how that
data would be authenticated. That is NOT a small thing.


> 2.  If you do 1. above, the dynamic methods that can be specified
should
> ideally
> be similar/integrated with the general methods (that is, methods
available
> even
> if you do not have a cert) available to obtain certs and paths as well
> (and this
> was Jim Shaads old proposal).

[Stefan] That is not how I read Jim's document. After a quick glance I
read Jim's document as a way to specify effectively in an S/MIME
message, what certificates can be used to encrypt to it's sender and
what sMIMECapabilities are tied to each listed certificate (represented
by a hash). It also touches on how you could include pointers in the
S/MIME message, pointing to the storage location of certificates.

So this does NOT solve how you would access dynamic authenticated data
PRIOR to the first S/MIME exchange between the parties.

> And nowadays provisions for DNS + XKMS
> might be
> included as noted by others in this list.  The reason for this is that
in
> many
> cases when you need sMIMECapabilities, you also need the cert and path
as
> well
> (this was the point I was trying to make at the end of my previous e-
> mail), and
> we should minimize the proliferation of methods.
> 

[Stefan] This makes it clear to me that we try to solve different
problems. The problem how to find certificates and their path is
important but it is definitely out of the scope of this work. I don't
say that I oppose work in that problem space but it is not part of what
this work item is set to accomplish. Tying sMIMECapabilities to other
specific key management protocols would IMO be a bad thing that would
lower the value and usability of this work.

> 
> The problem with having the data in the cert itself is that if an
> enterprise
> updates their desktop software and needs to update any of the
> sMIMECapabilities
> information, they will need to re-issue ALL of their certs and this is
a
> VERY
> big thing for large organizations.  As far as using "silent"
> revocation/renewal
> to limit CRL size, while this may be supported in some CA software,
doing
> so
> leads to other problems (e.g. having multiple apparently valid certs
and
> differentiating between them.  Potential security holes if the
> sMIMECapabilities
> change has a security impact...)
> 

[Stefan] Revocation and re-issuance might be a problem for some
environments but will not be a problem for others. So potential problems
in some environments should not stop its use in the many cases where it
is useful.

I can whiteness from real life experience that sMIMECapabilities in
certificates has been widely and successfully deployed without causing
any major problems. So we know that it works and that it brings value to
the use of S/MIME. It is a provable fact.

> By using an sMIMECapabilities distribution point, the information
itself
> is no
> longer in the cert, avoiding the cert reissue issue.  To take your
point
> about
> keeping it simple, the distribution point could return a null CMS
message
> signed
> by the CA or the end-entity (this provides additional options for the
> enterprise); and to address other comments in the list, could point to
a
> DNS SRV
> for XKMS.  Again, none of these would be mandatory; as you say, the
> originating
> enterprise selects the method(s) they choose to support. There may be
an
> issue
> about securely binding the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the
cert -
> this
> is discussed in Jim Schaads expired draft.
> 
> Somehow I wonder if a combination of your draft and an updated version
of
> Jim's
> (with less reliance on only the directory server method) would not be
> ideal??
> 

[Stefan] I'm not saying that dynamic storage of sMIMECapabilities must
be bad. I can definitely see benefits, but it should not be mixed with
the simple task to specify use of a single attribute in certificates
that is already well established and defined.

Going for dynamic storage is a major work that needs a careful thought
process to determine whether it is worth the efforts and whether it is a
proper response to real problems of S/MIME users.

Unless I got it totally wrong, I don't believe that Jim's draft will
provide the solution you are after here. But I could be wrong.

> Tony
> 




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From: "Tony Capel" <capel@comgate.com>
To: "'Stefan Santesson'" <stefans@microsoft.com>, <ietf-smime@imc.org>
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Stefan:

Thanks for your reply.  I did understand that your proposal was optional and
need only be used by those interested in doing so.  I also understand your
reluctance to allow the scope to get out of hand...

I was trying to make two main points:

1.  The proposal offers one (optional) method to provide sMIMECapabilities:  by
inserting them directly in the cert.  I think it would be valuable to add the
ability to specify a location where sMIMECapabilities can be obtained (allow
dynamic methods to be specified). Zero, one or more of any of these methods
could be specified at the option of the organization issuing the certs.

2.  If you do 1. above, the dynamic methods that can be specified should ideally
be similar/integrated with the general methods (that is, methods available even
if you do not have a cert) available to obtain certs and paths as well (and this
was Jim Shaads old proposal).  And nowadays provisions for DNS + XKMS might be
included as noted by others in this list.  The reason for this is that in many
cases when you need sMIMECapabilities, you also need the cert and path as well
(this was the point I was trying to make at the end of my previous e-mail), and
we should minimize the proliferation of methods.


The problem with having the data in the cert itself is that if an enterprise
updates their desktop software and needs to update any of the sMIMECapabilities
information, they will need to re-issue ALL of their certs and this is a VERY
big thing for large organizations.  As far as using "silent" revocation/renewal
to limit CRL size, while this may be supported in some CA software, doing so
leads to other problems (e.g. having multiple apparently valid certs and
differentiating between them.  Potential security holes if the sMIMECapabilities
change has a security impact...)

By using an sMIMECapabilities distribution point, the information itself is no
longer in the cert, avoiding the cert reissue issue.  To take your point about
keeping it simple, the distribution point could return a null CMS message signed
by the CA or the end-entity (this provides additional options for the
enterprise); and to address other comments in the list, could point to a DNS SRV
for XKMS.  Again, none of these would be mandatory; as you say, the originating
enterprise selects the method(s) they choose to support. There may be an issue
about securely binding the sMIMECapabilities to the instance of the cert - this
is discussed in Jim Schaads expired draft.

Somehow I wonder if a combination of your draft and an updated version of Jim's
(with less reliance on only the directory server method) would not be ideal??

Tony





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Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 12:14:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Charter Modification
From: Ben Littauer <littauer@blkk.com>
To: Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren@telia.com>, Craig McGregor <Craig.McGregor@treasury.govt.nz>
CC: "Sean P. Turner" <turners@ieca.com>, SMIME <ietf-smime@imc.org>, Mike Lambert <m.lambert@opengroup.org>
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Anders, et al,

I'm working with the "competition", i.e. the Open Group.  We have indeed
just launched a certification program for domain encryption and signing
based on a profile of S/MIME.  This work was done independently of, but
highly conscious of, IETF efforts in the area.  In fact, the profile used by
the program was authored by Blake Ramsdell, and we have every intention of
seeing it promulgated as widely as possible.

There are definite shortcomings in the program as it exists today,
primarily, as has been pointed out, in the area of key distribution.  The
current specification leaves this as a fundamentally manual process.  Over
time, as S/MIME gateways proliferate, we hope that the NEED for a more
scalable mechanism develops, but for now penetration of this technology is
so sparse that the more urgent need is to have products that can
interoperate on the mail and key exchange level at all.

I encourage all who are interested in this area to consider attending an
Open Group session on this at one of their meetings.  The next meeting is in
Berlin toward the end of September, but it will be primarily informational
with respect to the gateway certification program.  The following meeting,
in October in New Orleans, will have significant discussions on "v2" of the
certification program.  Please visit http://www.opengroup.org/messaging for
more information.  

In sum, the Open Group considers itself IN NO WAY competitive to the IETF,
and we would welcome participation from all interested parties.

-ben-


> From: Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren@telia.com>
> Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:18:04 +0200
> To: Craig McGregor <Craig.McGregor@treasury.govt.nz>
> Cc: "Sean P. Turner" <turners@ieca.com>, SMIME <ietf-smime@imc.org>
> Subject: Re: Charter Modification
> 
> 
> Thanx Craig,
> I was not aware of the mailsig (WG?) list.   That means this
> is outside of the S/MIME charter I suppose?
> 
> BTW, here is a "competitor":
> http://www.opengroup.org/comm/press/19jul04.htm
> 
> What I have seen little of, is how this can scale without having
> a gateway PKI in place.  Peer-to-peer certification does not seem
> like a terribly good idea.
> 
> Regards
> Anders
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Craig McGregor
> To: Anders Rundgren
> Cc: Sean P. Turner ; SMIME
> Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 23:23
> Subject: RE: Charter Modification
> 
> 
> Anders,
> 
> I wasn't at the BOF you mentioned but as I understand it the BOF was scoped
> for signing/authenticating e-mail.
> Draft Charter: http://www.imc.org/ietf-mailsig/mail-archive/msg00000.html
> Minutes: http://www.imc.org/ietf-mailsig/mail-archive/msg00025.html
> 
> S/MIME gateways could use all existing S/MIME specifications and not be
> limited to only signing outbound e-mail. e.g. Encryption
> over the untrusted networks that transports messages between domains that
> might otherwise have some level of trust.
> 
> I would also like to see an interoperable S/MIME Gateway||Domains||Entities
> standard or specification. I have had some past
> experience at making a limited set of S/MIME gateway software talk to each
> other reliably. This was more challenging at that time
> than it should have been.
> 
> S/MIME Gateway signing and encryption is quite possible in a closed-community
> of domains today - example: http://e.govt.nz/see/mail/
> (Since November 2000)
> 
> If it was possible to solve key management, PKI trust and legacy
> interoperability (including mailing-list behaviour) using something
> that scales to an open community then an S/MIME gateway approach could
> certainly work in the open community. Solving all three of
> these problems isn't necessarily easy.
> 
> Regards,
> Craig
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On
> Behalf Of Anders Rundgren
> Sent: Tuesday, 31 August 2004 6:09 p.m.
> To: Sean P. Turner; SMIME
> Subject: Re: Charter Modification
> 
> 
> How about including a S/MIME gateway task?
> The OpenGroup and Blake B are reportedly working on such a thing.
> 
> What happened with the gateway BOF that Phill H-B wrote about sometime ago?
> 
> An S/MIME gateway standard is really needed as S/MIME end-to-end encryption is
> not going anywhere.
> 
> Anders
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Sean P. Turner
> To: SMIME
> Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 01:41
> Subject: Charter Modification
> 
> 
> All,
> 
> To include Stefan's work in the working group we need to modify the working
> group's charter (we also needed to update the dates
> anyway because some are way off).  Attached is the proposed modification.
> Please respond with any comments by  Friday.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> spt
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> S/MIME Mail Security (smime)
> 
> Chair:
>      Sean Turner <turners@ieca.com>
>      Blake Ramsdell <blake@sendmail.com>
> 
> 
> Security Area Director:
>      Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
>      Steve Belovin <smb@research.att.com>
> 
> Security Area Advisor:
>      Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
> 
> Mailing Lists:
>      General Discussion: ietf-smime@imc.org
>      To Subscribe:       ietf-smime-request@imc.org
>      Archive:            http://www.imc.org/ietf-smime/
> 
> Description of Working Group:
> 
> The S/MIME Working Group has completed a series of Proposed Standards that
> comprise the S/MIME version 3.1 specification. As part of
> the specification update, a new suite of "mandatory to implement" algorithms
> was be selected. Current efforts update and build upon
> these base specifications.
> 
> The Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) (RFC 3852) is cryptographic algorithm
> independent, yet there is always more than one way to
> use any algorithm. To ensure interoperability, each algorithm should have a
> specification that describes its use with CMS.
> Specifications for the use of additional cryptographic algorithms will be
> developed.
> 
> To aid implementers, documents containing example output for CMS will be
> collected and published. Some of the examples will include
> 
> structures and signed attributes defined in the Enhanced SecurityServices
> (ESS) (RFC 2634) document.
> 
> CMS, as well as S/MIME version 3 and later, permit the use of previously
> distributed symmetric key-encryption keys. Specifications
> for the distribution of symmetric key-encryption keys to multiple message
> recipients will be developed. Mail List Agents (MLAs)
> areone user of symmetric key-encryption keys. The specification will be
> algorithm independent.
> 
> To aid initial determination of recipient's cryptographic capabilities a
> specification will be developed allowing S/MIME
> capabilities to be stored and asserted in X.509 certificates based on the
> X.509 certificate and CRL profile developed by the PKIX
> Working Group.
> 
> The working group will perform necessary interoperability testing to rogress
> the CMS and S/MIME specifications to Draft Standard.
> The CMS specification depends on the RFC 3280. This profile must progress to
> Draft Standard before CMS and the other S/MIME
> specifications can progress to Draft Standard. Assuming timely progress by the
> PKIX Working Group, the S/MIME specification can
> start progressing to Draft Standard in 2005.
> 
> Milestones:
> 
> History
>      Submit CMS compressed data content type a Proposed Standard.
>      Submit security label usage specification as Informational RFC.
>      Submit elliptic curve algorithm specification as Informational RFC.
>      Submit update to CMS as a Proposed Standard.
>      Submit CMS Algorithms as a Proposed Standard.
>      Submit AES key wrap algorithm description as Informational RFC.
>      Last call on X.400 CMS wrapper specification.
>      Last call on X.400 transport specification.
>      Last call on HMAC key wrap description specification.
>      Last call on RSA OAEP algorithm specification.
>      Last call on AES algorithm specification.
>      Last call on update to MSG.
>      First draft of update to CERT.
>      First draft of CMS and ESS examples document.
>      First draft of S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix.
>      First draft of RSA PSS algorithm specification.
>      Submit mail list key distribution as a Proposed Standard.
>      Submit HMAC key wrap description as Proposed Standard.
>      Submit RSA OAEP algorithm specification as a Proposed Standard.
>      Sumbit AES algorithm specification as Proposed Standard.
>      Submit X.400 CMS wrapper specification as a Proposed Standard.
>      Submit X.400 transport as a Proposed Standard.
>      Last call on CMS and ESS examples document.
>      Sumbit update to CERT as Proposed Standard.
>      Sumbit update to MSG as Proposed Standard.
>      First draft of RSA KEM algorithm specification.
>      Last call on RSA PSS algorithm specification.
>      Submit RSA PSS algorithm specification as Proposed Standard
> 
> September 04
>      Submit CMS and ESS examples document as Informational RFC
>      First draft of S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension
> 
> October 04
>      Working Group Last Call for S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension
> 
> December 04
>      Submit S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension as Informational RFC
> 
> January 05
>      Final S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix
> 
> February 05
>      Request advancement of CMS Algorithms to Draft Standard
>      Request advancement of CMS to Draft Standard
>      Request advancement of ESS to Draft Standard
>      Request advancement of CERT to Draft Standard
>      Request advancement of MSG to Draft Standard
>      Last call on RSA KEM algorithm specification
> 
> January 06
>      Submit RSA KEM algorithm specification as Proposed Standard
> 
> 




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> > > >There are machines where the internal format of time is not seconds
> > > >since 1.1.70, ...
> > >
> > > I agree.  However, very simple math can be used to make the
> > > conversion.  However, conversion from UTCTime and GeneralizedTime is a bit
> > > more complicated.  I do admit that operating systems provide the necessary
> > > routines to handle this in a few lines of code.
> >
> >If you assume a systrem that uses time_t and the availablity of a gmtime
> >function, something like the following should work to convert a
> >generalizedtime in Zulu to a time_t.
> >
> >         time_t test = (time_t) 0;  int i ;
> >         for (i = ( sizeof(time_t)*8-2) ; i>=0; i--) {
> >                 test += (time_t)(1 << i) ;
> >                 strftime(strtime, 16, "%Y%m%d%H%M%SZ",gmtime(&test));
> >                 if (strncmp(tm->data,strtime,15) < 0)
> >                         test -= (time_t)(1 << i) ;
> >         }
> 
> Two thoughts:
> 
> 1.  Embedded systems may not have the rich set of functions that you are 
> using here.
gmtime is not rich, just look at the implementations. you can easily replace
the formatting by another equivalent implementation which is less than 50
lines of C that directly converts to a string.  

And what would emebedded system do with such a time? They would compare it against
which value? If anything like certificate validation is involved,
string processing etc is necessary anyway, and if you consider the size
of an asn1 decoder, sorry, telling that gmtime or strftime are 'rich'
is a somewhet weak argument. 
 
> 
> 2.  This only works when the time zone is UTC.  This is one of the reasons 
> that RFC 3280 and RFC 3852 require the time values to make use of UTC.  The 
> UTCTime and GeneralizedTime types do support other time zones.


id-signingTime only has UTC:

   UTCTime values must be expressed in Greenwich Mean Time (Zulu) and
   must include seconds (i.e., times are YYMMDDHHMMSSZ), even where the
   number of seconds is zero.  Midnight (GMT) must be represented as
   "YYMMDD000000Z".  Century information is implicit, and the century
   must be determined as follows:

      Where YY is greater than or equal to 50, the year shall be
      interpreted as 19YY; and

      Where YY is less than 50, the year shall be interpreted as 20YY.

   GeneralizedTime values shall be expressed in Greenwich Mean Time
   (Zulu) and must include seconds (i.e., times are YYYYMMDDHHMMSSZ),
   even where the number of seconds is zero.  GeneralizedTime values
   must not include fractional seconds.

You might propose 

      SigningTime ::= Time

      Time ::= CHOICE {
        utcTime          UTCTime,
        generalizedTime  GeneralizedTime,
	epochSeconds     INTEGER}

in CMS to avoid all complications about multiple values, ie. when
having id-SigningTime and id-BinarySigningTime together, well, this
creates compartibility problems. 

> 
> > > >Showing this time to a user always requires some conversion, while
> > > >displaying a generaizedtime does not.
> > >
> > > Display to a human is not the biggest concern.  Date comparison is a much
> > > bigger deal to me.  Integer comparison is easy, even when multi-precision
> > > integers are involved.
> >
> >Comparison of ordered text strings is also simple.
> >Dates in certificates are in generalizedtime.
> 
> Yes, if all times are represented in UTC, and the times are in the same 
> format.  Another complexity can arise when one date is in UTCTime and the 
> other is in GeneralizedTime.
All id-SigningTime values are in Zulu, the necessary adjustment to convert a
UTC to a Generalized time is exteremely simple. 

> 
> >In any case, on failure, some information must bepresented, and it
> >may finally end up before user: signature not valid because not after 
> >1000000000
> >
> >of course, if you don't assume the availability of a gmtime function...
> >... but then you probably already have other problems.
> 
> I already said that above...
Well, look into the free sources. Adding 50 lines of code is less than
adding whatever logic would be necessary to check inconsistent combinations
of id-SigningTime and id-BinarySigningTime.   

> 
> >'Midnight' 1.1.70 is 00h00 or 24h00 btw.
> 
> We should probably add that to the list of things to clarify if the 
> specification is ever updated again.
No, one should reference some appropriate texts. Similar, I
don't think that it is necessary to teach people about the variable
length nature of an ASN1 INTEGER. 

> 
> > > >The few octes advantadge over generalizedtime seems small compared to the
> > > >size of a signature. And treatment of generalized time is necessary anyway
> > > >because of dates in certs.
> > >
> > > Yep.  I think that BinaryTime has other uses too.
> >
> >In the intended scenario?

Does silence to this question mean that you don't see any use in the intended
scenario? If so, where is the beef? 

> >
> >I am not sure but I have the feeling that the current justification
> >can be resumed as 'There may be some usages of this feature somewhere, it
> >is admitted that in the described scenario it is not usefule, even 
> >superfluous,
> >and  may create confusion, but anyway.'
> >
> >I amy be wrong.
> 
> You may be right.  That is why we ask for review.
I think, there are at least two Peter who don't see a need for this spec. 



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To: Peter Sylvester <Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr>
From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
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Peter:

> > >There are machines where the internal format of time is not seconds
> > >since 1.1.70, ...
> >
> > I agree.  However, very simple math can be used to make the
> > conversion.  However, conversion from UTCTime and GeneralizedTime is a bit
> > more complicated.  I do admit that operating systems provide the necessary
> > routines to handle this in a few lines of code.
>
>If you assume a systrem that uses time_t and the availablity of a gmtime
>function, something like the following should work to convert a
>generalizedtime in Zulu to a time_t.
>
>         time_t test = (time_t) 0;  int i ;
>         for (i = ( sizeof(time_t)*8-2) ; i>=0; i--) {
>                 test += (time_t)(1 << i) ;
>                 strftime(strtime, 16, "%Y%m%d%H%M%SZ",gmtime(&test));
>                 if (strncmp(tm->data,strtime,15) < 0)
>                         test -= (time_t)(1 << i) ;
>         }

Two thoughts:

1.  Embedded systems may not have the rich set of functions that you are 
using here.

2.  This only works when the time zone is UTC.  This is one of the reasons 
that RFC 3280 and RFC 3852 require the time values to make use of UTC.  The 
UTCTime and GeneralizedTime types do support other time zones.

> > >Showing this time to a user always requires some conversion, while
> > >displaying a generaizedtime does not.
> >
> > Display to a human is not the biggest concern.  Date comparison is a much
> > bigger deal to me.  Integer comparison is easy, even when multi-precision
> > integers are involved.
>
>Comparison of ordered text strings is also simple.
>Dates in certificates are in generalizedtime.

Yes, if all times are represented in UTC, and the times are in the same 
format.  Another complexity can arise when one date is in UTCTime and the 
other is in GeneralizedTime.

>In any case, on failure, some information must bepresented, and it
>may finally end up before user: signature not valid because not after 
>1000000000
>
>of course, if you don't assume the availability of a gmtime function...
>... but then you probably already have other problems.

I already said that above...

>'Midnight' 1.1.70 is 00h00 or 24h00 btw.

We should probably add that to the list of things to clarify if the 
specification is ever updated again.

> > >The few octes advantadge over generalizedtime seems small compared to the
> > >size of a signature. And treatment of generalized time is necessary anyway
> > >because of dates in certs.
> >
> > Yep.  I think that BinaryTime has other uses too.
>
>In the intended scenario?
>
>I am not sure but I have the feeling that the current justification
>can be resumed as 'There may be some usages of this feature somewhere, it
>is admitted that in the described scenario it is not usefule, even 
>superfluous,
>and  may create confusion, but anyway.'
>
>I amy be wrong.

You may be right.  That is why we ask for review.

Russ 



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From: Peter Sylvester <Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr>
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> >There are machines where the internal format of time is not seconds
> >since 1.1.70, ...
> 
> I agree.  However, very simple math can be used to make the 
> conversion.  However, conversion from UTCTime and GeneralizedTime is a bit 
> more complicated.  I do admit that operating systems provide the necessary 
> routines to handle this in a few lines of code.

If you assume a systrem that uses time_t and the availablity of a gmtime
function, something like the following should work to convert a 
generalizedtime in Zulu to a time_t. 

	time_t test = (time_t) 0;  int i ;
	for (i = ( sizeof(time_t)*8-2) ; i>=0; i--) {		
		test += (time_t)(1 << i) ;
		strftime(strtime, 16, "%Y%m%d%H%M%SZ",gmtime(&test));
		if (strncmp(tm->data,strtime,15) < 0) 
			test -= (time_t)(1 << i) ;
	} 

> >Showing this time to a user always requires some conversion, while
> >displaying a generaizedtime does not.
> 
> Display to a human is not the biggest concern.  Date comparison is a much 
> bigger deal to me.  Integer comparison is easy, even when multi-precision 
> integers are involved.

Comparison of ordered text strings is also simple. 
Dates in certificates are in generalizedtime. 

In any case, on failure, some information must bepresented, and it
may finally end up before user: signature not valid because not after 1000000000

of course, if you don't assume the availability of a gmtime function...
... but then you probably already have other problems. 

'Midnight' 1.1.70 is 00h00 or 24h00 btw.

> 
> >The few octes advantadge over generalizedtime seems small compared to the
> >size of a signature. And treatment of generalized time is necessary anyway
> >because of dates in certs.
> 
> Yep.  I think that BinaryTime has other uses too.

In the intended scenario?

I am not sure but I have the feeling that the current justification 
can be resumed as 'There may be some usages of this feature somewhere, it
is admitted that in the described scenario it is not usefule, even superfluous, 
and  may create confusion, but anyway.'

I amy be wrong.



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Tony,

In-line;


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com]
> Sent: den 1 september 2004 20:37
> To: ietf-smime@imc.org; Stefan Santesson
> Cc: 'Anders Rundgren'
> Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
> 
> Stefan:
> 
> I am also concerned about requiring that the sMIMECapabilities be in
the
> certificate itself, although I agree that something to help get
initial
> sMIMECapabilities is required.

[Stefan] This is a fundamental misunderstanding. I do certainly not
propose that sMIMECapabilities should be REQUIRED in certs.

This is an option for the many cases where this is useful, makes sense
and is compatible with the organizational structure it is used.

So we don't need to prove that it is useful for all certificates and all
use cases. We only need to prove that it is useful enough and that its
use is not creating problems for those for which it doesn't make any
sense.

> 
> Jim Schaad's "Certificate Distribution Specification" expired draft
> (draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt) touched on this as well.
> 
[Stefan] I'm sorry, I don't have this draft.

> If sMIMECapabilities is bound to the certificate, certificates may
need to
> be
> re-issued more frequently (when capabilities information is changed).
> This will
> create additional work for the CA, and CRLs will inevitably increase
in
> size
> (these are bad things).  (Correct me if I am wrong: If the
capabilities
> for an
> organization changes, all of the certs will need to be reissued!)

[Stefan] As you mention below, the act to put sMIMECapabilities is more
of a policy enforcement act and as such it doesn't differ from many
other aspects of certificates. You can compare with the case where the
certificate policy gets updated, changed or a new certificate policy
must be added to all certificates.

If your policy in this matter is subject to change on a frequent basis
in a way that needs to be immediately populated you need to handle and
plan for this. You may the conclude that you don't want to put
sMIMECapabilities in your certs. Renewal doesn't however necessarily
mean that old certificate must be revoked and some PKI implementations
actually allow enforced silent renewal of all certificate in an
organization to all users at the cost of just a few clicks in the
administrational GUI.

This must in the end be compared with the case where an initial exchange
takes place and the sender has NO knowledge about the recipient, then it
will need to fall back to the default configuration in the senders
application which in many cases is 40-bit encryption.

> 
> Also since the certificate is signed by the CA, sMIMECapabilities in
this
> proposal is signed by the CA and not the end-entity (as in existing
> method).
> This may sometimes be beneficial since it allows the CA to have added
> control
> over the use of algorithms and key lengths.  The change from the
end-user
> signing to the CA signing has security implications and should be
noted*
> (possibly in the security section).

[Stefan] We agree here. It is important to clearly guide that user
signed sMIMECapabilities should have precedence over capabilities
carried in certs. The capabilities in certs are only meant to be the
last resource of guidance before falling back to the default
configuration in the sender's application.


> 
> Some of the issues could be addressed by allowing the use of a dynamic
> method as
> well.  One or more methods could be specified, XKMS + DNS, LDAP,
and/or
> HTTP for
> example.  One available method could be an "immediate" method,
allowing
> those
> CAs who do not mind putting sMIMECapabilities within their
certificates to
> do so
> (as currently proposed).
> 

[Stefan] I men that it is very important to use the same structure and
attribute format as when this same information is carried in a S/MIME
signed message. This way we can preserve the same logic for capabilities
in certificates and in signed messages and thus switch to the use of
capabilities in signed messages as soon as this is available for the
sender.

> 
> I also wonder how many cases there are when only the sMIMECapabilities
is
> required (and not certificates & paths as well).

[Stefan] S/MIME is based on the use of certificates. If you have any
case where you don't have a certificate then this feature does not apply
to you.

  If you don't have a
> certificate, an extension won't help (you need certificates and
> sMIMECapabilities both).  If you have a certificate from a previous
> message you
> likely also received the sMIMECapabilities in a SignerInfo.  If you
> obtained the
> certificate using LDAP or some other means you might logically but
> arguably
> expect to access the sMIMECapabilities the same way.  If your software
> threw
> away the S/MIME capabilities (rather than caching them like the
> certificate)
> adding them to the certificate is a peculiar way to fix the software!

 [Stefan] I think this is a misunderstanding of the spec. You would use
the capabilities from the signed message if you have one. You only use
the capabilities in the certificate if you don't have any other data to
use.


> Also of
> course for dual keypair systems, there may be situations where you
have
> the
> signing certificate but not the encryption one, in which case you want
> both
> sMIMECapabilities and the encryption cert - and I hope the proposal is
not
> to
> embed the encryption cert inside the signing cert!!!

[Stefan] You are right, that is absolutely NOT the proposal.
sMIMECapabilities only makes sense in encryption certs to be used by the
sender of an encrypted message.

> 
> So maybe the method used to get sMIMECapabilities should also be able
to
> return
> the certificates & paths - to make it more generally useful - in which
> case Jim
> Schaad's proposal - and allowing any dynamic access method including
XKMS
> + DNS,
> LDAP, HTTP, . - may be worth another look.
> 
[Stefan] I don't agree. We should not overload this function. Just
complement the use of the same attribute in signed messages.

> Sorry for the long winded reply.  But an easier method to get certs,
paths
> and
> sMIMECapabilities is needed.
> 

[Stefan] No problem. I hope my answers make sense.


> Tony
> 
> 
> * This may also include a discussion about using values provided in
> certificates
> in preference to values obtained by other means (e.g. when both a
> certificate
> and the SignerInfo contain sMIMECapabilities).  For example, the first
> paragraph
> of Section 3 in the current proposal may not always be correct:  the
> sMIMECapabilities list signed by the CA (e.g. provided in a
certificate)
> may be
> more trusted than the list provided in a message even if it appears
the
> message
> was more recent.  In some applications the increased trust (or more
> correctly,
> the increased authority of the signor) may take preference.
> 
> 
> 
> | -----Original Message-----
> | From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org
> | [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Anders Rundgren
> | Sent: August 12, 2004 4:35 AM
> | To: ietf-smime@imc.org
> | Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
> |
> |
> |
> | I have no comments on the "design" in this draft.
> |
> | However, I seriously question the idea to put client software
> | capabilities in certificates.
> |
> | Why?
> | - because issuers may not have this information
> | - because users may have multiple clients
> | - because static solutions are limiting
> |
> | If we begin to use dynamic methods like XKMS + DNS to find
> | public keys of recipients, SCEXT represents a step in another
> | direction.
> |
> | Due to the limited utility of true end-to-end encryption in
> | corporate environments (the DOMSEC RFC shows a few good
> | reasons to that), as well as the de-facto use of the web as a
> | distribution medium for e-government purposes (which is a
> | much easier solution than S/MIME), I believe that Microsoft
> | should focus on making a gateway e-mail standard a reality
> | rather than patching a system that never will play a major
> | role and actually mostly creates problems for end-users and
> | system administrators.
> |
> | Anders
> |
> |
> 




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From: "Anders Rundgren" <anders.rundgren@telia.com>
To: "Craig McGregor" <Craig.McGregor@treasury.govt.nz>
Cc: "Sean P. Turner" <turners@ieca.com>, "SMIME" <ietf-smime@imc.org>
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Subject: Re: Charter Modification
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:18:04 +0200
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Thanx Craig,
I was not aware of the mailsig (WG?) list.   That means this
is outside of the S/MIME charter I suppose?

BTW, here is a "competitor":
http://www.opengroup.org/comm/press/19jul04.htm

What I have seen little of, is how this can scale without having
a gateway PKI in place.  Peer-to-peer certification does not seem
like a terribly good idea.

Regards
Anders
----- Original Message -----
From: Craig McGregor
To: Anders Rundgren
Cc: Sean P. Turner ; SMIME
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 23:23
Subject: RE: Charter Modification


Anders,

I wasn't at the BOF you mentioned but as I understand it the BOF was scoped for signing/authenticating e-mail.
Draft Charter: http://www.imc.org/ietf-mailsig/mail-archive/msg00000.html
Minutes: http://www.imc.org/ietf-mailsig/mail-archive/msg00025.html

S/MIME gateways could use all existing S/MIME specifications and not be limited to only signing outbound e-mail. e.g. Encryption
over the untrusted networks that transports messages between domains that might otherwise have some level of trust.

I would also like to see an interoperable S/MIME Gateway||Domains||Entities standard or specification. I have had some past
experience at making a limited set of S/MIME gateway software talk to each other reliably. This was more challenging at that time
than it should have been.

S/MIME Gateway signing and encryption is quite possible in a closed-community of domains today - example: http://e.govt.nz/see/mail/
(Since November 2000)

If it was possible to solve key management, PKI trust and legacy interoperability (including mailing-list behaviour) using something
that scales to an open community then an S/MIME gateway approach could certainly work in the open community. Solving all three of
these problems isn't necessarily easy.

Regards,
Craig

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Anders Rundgren
Sent: Tuesday, 31 August 2004 6:09 p.m.
To: Sean P. Turner; SMIME
Subject: Re: Charter Modification


How about including a S/MIME gateway task?
The OpenGroup and Blake B are reportedly working on such a thing.

What happened with the gateway BOF that Phill H-B wrote about sometime ago?

An S/MIME gateway standard is really needed as S/MIME end-to-end encryption is not going anywhere.

Anders
----- Original Message -----
From: Sean P. Turner
To: SMIME
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 01:41
Subject: Charter Modification


All,

To include Stefan's work in the working group we need to modify the working group's charter (we also needed to update the dates
anyway because some are way off).  Attached is the proposed modification.  Please respond with any comments by  Friday.

Cheers,

spt





S/MIME Mail Security (smime)

Chair:
     Sean Turner <turners@ieca.com>
     Blake Ramsdell <blake@sendmail.com>


Security Area Director:
     Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
     Steve Belovin <smb@research.att.com>

Security Area Advisor:
     Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>

Mailing Lists:
     General Discussion: ietf-smime@imc.org
     To Subscribe:       ietf-smime-request@imc.org
     Archive:            http://www.imc.org/ietf-smime/

Description of Working Group:

The S/MIME Working Group has completed a series of Proposed Standards that comprise the S/MIME version 3.1 specification. As part of
the specification update, a new suite of "mandatory to implement" algorithms was be selected. Current efforts update and build upon
these base specifications.

The Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) (RFC 3852) is cryptographic algorithm independent, yet there is always more than one way to
use any algorithm. To ensure interoperability, each algorithm should have a specification that describes its use with CMS.
Specifications for the use of additional cryptographic algorithms will be developed.

To aid implementers, documents containing example output for CMS will be collected and published. Some of the examples will include

structures and signed attributes defined in the Enhanced SecurityServices (ESS) (RFC 2634) document.

CMS, as well as S/MIME version 3 and later, permit the use of previously distributed symmetric key-encryption keys. Specifications
for the distribution of symmetric key-encryption keys to multiple message recipients will be developed. Mail List Agents (MLAs)
areone user of symmetric key-encryption keys. The specification will be algorithm independent.

To aid initial determination of recipient's cryptographic capabilities a specification will be developed allowing S/MIME
capabilities to be stored and asserted in X.509 certificates based on the X.509 certificate and CRL profile developed by the PKIX
Working Group.

The working group will perform necessary interoperability testing to rogress the CMS and S/MIME specifications to Draft Standard.
The CMS specification depends on the RFC 3280. This profile must progress to Draft Standard before CMS and the other S/MIME
specifications can progress to Draft Standard. Assuming timely progress by the PKIX Working Group, the S/MIME specification can
start progressing to Draft Standard in 2005.

Milestones:

History
     Submit CMS compressed data content type a Proposed Standard.
     Submit security label usage specification as Informational RFC.
     Submit elliptic curve algorithm specification as Informational RFC.
     Submit update to CMS as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit CMS Algorithms as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit AES key wrap algorithm description as Informational RFC.
     Last call on X.400 CMS wrapper specification.
     Last call on X.400 transport specification.
     Last call on HMAC key wrap description specification.
     Last call on RSA OAEP algorithm specification.
     Last call on AES algorithm specification.
     Last call on update to MSG.
     First draft of update to CERT.
     First draft of CMS and ESS examples document.
     First draft of S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix.
     First draft of RSA PSS algorithm specification.
     Submit mail list key distribution as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit HMAC key wrap description as Proposed Standard.
     Submit RSA OAEP algorithm specification as a Proposed Standard.
     Sumbit AES algorithm specification as Proposed Standard.
     Submit X.400 CMS wrapper specification as a Proposed Standard.
     Submit X.400 transport as a Proposed Standard.
     Last call on CMS and ESS examples document.
     Sumbit update to CERT as Proposed Standard.
     Sumbit update to MSG as Proposed Standard.
     First draft of RSA KEM algorithm specification.
     Last call on RSA PSS algorithm specification.
     Submit RSA PSS algorithm specification as Proposed Standard

September 04
     Submit CMS and ESS examples document as Informational RFC
     First draft of S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension

October 04
     Working Group Last Call for S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension

December 04
     Submit S/MIME Capabilities Certificate Extension as Informational RFC

January 05
     Final S/MIME version 3.1 interoperability matrix

February 05
     Request advancement of CMS Algorithms to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of CMS to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of ESS to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of CERT to Draft Standard
     Request advancement of MSG to Draft Standard
     Last call on RSA KEM algorithm specification

January 06
     Submit RSA KEM algorithm specification as Proposed Standard



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To: Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
CC: housley@vigilsec.com, ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
References: <E1C2YBH-0006Ch-00@medusa01>
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Peter,

Your criticism is what seems bizarre.  The one sentence omitted
from what you quote below states that it DOES go beyond 2038.  An
INTEGER number of seconds since Jan 1 1970 will go until the
heat death of the universe and beyond.

The question for more rational discussion is:  is a binary signing time
value useful?  If the answer is yes, the only remaining questions are
epoch and resolution.  Since there were very few CMS digital
signatures in existence before 1970, using an epoch of 1600 or 1904
would seem to offer little benefit.  It is also difficult to articulate
a rationale for specifying the moment of signing to nanosecond
resolution.

The reason for a binary attribute in the first place is primarily
space efficiency.  CMS can be used to sign large numbers of
small objects, and certificates don't need to accompany
those objects.  ASN.1 structures can be PER encoded, but
PER offers minimal compression of UTC or Generalized Times
(7 bits vs. 8 per character).   Once you have squeezed out all bits
permitted by the standard, you look for additional opportunities.
Defining a binary time attribute is one such opportunity.

Will this be useful for S/MIME?  Of course not.  But it is
useful for some other applications of CMS.

Dave


Peter Gutmann wrote:

>Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> writes:
>
>  
>
>>The document states the rationale.  No conversion to operating system
>>representation and it is smaller.  In what way do you find it limiting?
>>    
>>
>
>It doesn't go beyond 2038, whereas UTCTime at least goes to 2050.
>
>The proposal isn't so much limiting as... bizarre.  The ASN.1 time formats
>have been around forever. everything supports them, and this proposal is for a
>format that isn't even as "flexible" as the not-very-flexible UTCTime.  What
>real problem is this addressing?  Why a time_t?  Why not a 64-bit time to keep
>the Java guys happy?  Or the Windows nanoseconds-since-1600 time?  Or the
>Macintosh seconds-since 1904?  You could make it a choice, so no-one would
>feel left out, with at least one of the choices being an identified-by-OID
>value so everyone could add their own favourite oddball format...
>
>Peter.
>
>
>  
>



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From: "Tony Capel" <capel@comgate.com>
To: <ietf-smime@imc.org>, <stefans@microsoft.com>
Cc: "'Anders Rundgren'" <anders.rundgren@telia.com>
Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:36:32 -0400
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Stefan:

I am also concerned about requiring that the sMIMECapabilities be in the
certificate itself, although I agree that something to help get initial
sMIMECapabilities is required.

Jim Schaad's "Certificate Distribution Specification" expired draft
(draft-ietf-smime-certdist-05.txt) touched on this as well.

If sMIMECapabilities is bound to the certificate, certificates may need to be
re-issued more frequently (when capabilities information is changed).  This will
create additional work for the CA, and CRLs will inevitably increase in size
(these are bad things).  (Correct me if I am wrong: If the capabilities for an
organization changes, all of the certs will need to be reissued!)

Also since the certificate is signed by the CA, sMIMECapabilities in this
proposal is signed by the CA and not the end-entity (as in existing method).
This may sometimes be beneficial since it allows the CA to have added control
over the use of algorithms and key lengths.  The change from the end-user
signing to the CA signing has security implications and should be noted*
(possibly in the security section). 

Some of the issues could be addressed by allowing the use of a dynamic method as
well.  One or more methods could be specified, XKMS + DNS, LDAP, and/or HTTP for
example.  One available method could be an "immediate" method, allowing those
CAs who do not mind putting sMIMECapabilities within their certificates to do so
(as currently proposed).


I also wonder how many cases there are when only the sMIMECapabilities is
required (and not certificates & paths as well).  If you don't have a
certificate, an extension won't help (you need certificates and
sMIMECapabilities both).  If you have a certificate from a previous message you
likely also received the sMIMECapabilities in a SignerInfo.  If you obtained the
certificate using LDAP or some other means you might logically but arguably
expect to access the sMIMECapabilities the same way.  If your software threw
away the S/MIME capabilities (rather than caching them like the certificate)
adding them to the certificate is a peculiar way to fix the software!  Also of
course for dual keypair systems, there may be situations where you have the
signing certificate but not the encryption one, in which case you want both
sMIMECapabilities and the encryption cert - and I hope the proposal is not to
embed the encryption cert inside the signing cert!!!

So maybe the method used to get sMIMECapabilities should also be able to return
the certificates & paths - to make it more generally useful - in which case Jim
Schaad's proposal - and allowing any dynamic access method including XKMS + DNS,
LDAP, HTTP, . - may be worth another look.

Sorry for the long winded reply.  But an easier method to get certs, paths and
sMIMECapabilities is needed. 

Tony


* This may also include a discussion about using values provided in certificates
in preference to values obtained by other means (e.g. when both a certificate
and the SignerInfo contain sMIMECapabilities).  For example, the first paragraph
of Section 3 in the current proposal may not always be correct:  the
sMIMECapabilities list signed by the CA (e.g. provided in a certificate) may be
more trusted than the list provided in a message even if it appears the message
was more recent.  In some applications the increased trust (or more correctly,
the increased authority of the signor) may take preference.



| -----Original Message-----
| From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org 
| [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Anders Rundgren
| Sent: August 12, 2004 4:35 AM
| To: ietf-smime@imc.org
| Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-santesson-smime-scext-00.txt
| 
| 
| 
| I have no comments on the "design" in this draft.
| 
| However, I seriously question the idea to put client software 
| capabilities in certificates.
| 
| Why?
| - because issuers may not have this information
| - because users may have multiple clients
| - because static solutions are limiting
| 
| If we begin to use dynamic methods like XKMS + DNS to find 
| public keys of recipients, SCEXT represents a step in another 
| direction.
| 
| Due to the limited utility of true end-to-end encryption in 
| corporate environments (the DOMSEC RFC shows a few good 
| reasons to that), as well as the de-facto use of the web as a 
| distribution medium for e-government purposes (which is a 
| much easier solution than S/MIME), I believe that Microsoft 
| should focus on making a gateway e-mail standard a reality 
| rather than patching a system that never will play a major 
| role and actually mostly creates problems for end-users and 
| system administrators.
| 
| Anders
| 
| 





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To: Peter Sylvester <Peter.Sylvester@edelweb.fr>
From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
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Peter:

> > >The document states the rationale.  No conversion to operating system
> > >representation and it is smaller.  In what way do you find it limiting?
> >
> > It doesn't go beyond 2038, whereas UTCTime at least goes to 2050.
>
>Some thoughts:
>
>The value is an ASN.1 INTEGER, not a time_t or whatever.
>
>The format IS flexible because it allows any integre size. It may just
>happen that implements will wake up 33 years and find out that their
>asn1 decoding of this INTEGER cannot convert higher numbers..

Yep.

>There are machines where the internal format of time is not seconds
>since 1.1.70, ...

I agree.  However, very simple math can be used to make the 
conversion.  However, conversion from UTCTime and GeneralizedTime is a bit 
more complicated.  I do admit that operating systems provide the necessary 
routines to handle this in a few lines of code.

>Showing this time to a user always requires some conversion, while
>displaying a generaizedtime does not.

Display to a human is not the biggest concern.  Date comparison is a much 
bigger deal to me.  Integer comparison is easy, even when multi-precision 
integers are involved.

>The few octes advantadge over generalizedtime seems small compared to the
>size of a signature. And treatment of generalized time is necessary anyway
>because of dates in certs.

Yep.  I think that BinaryTime has other uses too.

Russ



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From: Peter Sylvester <Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr>
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To: housley@vigilsec.com, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz, Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
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I have forgotten: 

The proposed format and SMIME attributes serves the same purpose as
an existing one, i.e. id-signingTime 

Nothing is said about what to do when both attributes are present,
how they should be treated when available together. 

One probably wants to set both, so instead of saving data and cpu,
one will add.  


> 
> > >The document states the rationale.  No conversion to operating system
> > >representation and it is smaller.  In what way do you find it limiting?
> > 
> > It doesn't go beyond 2038, whereas UTCTime at least goes to 2050.
> 
> Some thoughts: 
> 
> The value is an ASN.1 INTEGER, not a time_t or whatever. 
> 
> The format IS flexible because it allows any integre size. It may just
> happen that implements will wake up 33 years and find out that their
> asn1 decoding of this INTEGER cannot convert higher numbers.. 
> 
> There are machines where the internal format of time is not seconds
> since 1.1.70, ...
> 
> Showing this time to a user always requires some conversion, while 
> displaying a generaizedtime does not. 
> 
> The few octes advantadge over generalizedtime seems small compared to the 
> size of a signature. And treatment of generalized time is necessary anyway
> because of dates in certs. 
> 



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From: Peter Sylvester <Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr>
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> >The document states the rationale.  No conversion to operating system
> >representation and it is smaller.  In what way do you find it limiting?
> 
> It doesn't go beyond 2038, whereas UTCTime at least goes to 2050.

Some thoughts: 

The value is an ASN.1 INTEGER, not a time_t or whatever. 

The format IS flexible because it allows any integre size. It may just
happen that implements will wake up 33 years and find out that their
asn1 decoding of this INTEGER cannot convert higher numbers.. 

There are machines where the internal format of time is not seconds
since 1.1.70, ...

Showing this time to a user always requires some conversion, while 
displaying a generaizedtime does not. 

The few octes advantadge over generalizedtime seems small compared to the 
size of a signature. And treatment of generalized time is necessary anyway
because of dates in certs. 



> 
> The proposal isn't so much limiting as... bizarre.  The ASN.1 time formats
> have been around forever. everything supports them, and this proposal is for a
> format that isn't even as "flexible" as the not-very-flexible UTCTime.  What
> real problem is this addressing?  Why a time_t?  Why not a 64-bit time to keep
> the Java guys happy?  Or the Windows nanoseconds-since-1600 time?  Or the
> Macintosh seconds-since 1904?  You could make it a choice, so no-one would
> feel left out, with at least one of the choices being an identified-by-OID
> value so everyone could add their own favourite oddball format...
> 
> Peter.
> 
> 



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Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 13:33:24 -0400
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org
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Peter:

> >The document states the rationale.  No conversion to operating system
> >representation and it is smaller.  In what way do you find it limiting?
>
>It doesn't go beyond 2038, whereas UTCTime at least goes to 2050.

Not so.  A 4-octet value takes us to 2038.  After that a 5-octet value is 
needed.  Many operating systems already use a 64-bit value internally.

>The proposal isn't so much limiting as... bizarre.  The ASN.1 time formats
>have been around forever. everything supports them, and this proposal is for a
>format that isn't even as "flexible" as the not-very-flexible UTCTime.  What
>real problem is this addressing?  Why a time_t?  Why not a 64-bit time to keep
>the Java guys happy?  Or the Windows nanoseconds-since-1600 time?  Or the
>Macintosh seconds-since 1904?  You could make it a choice, so no-one would
>feel left out, with at least one of the choices being an identified-by-OID
>value so everyone could add their own favourite oddball format...

Any of these is possible, but a choice defeats the whole point, which is to 
avoid complex conversion.

Russ



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From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
To: housley@vigilsec.com, pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org
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Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> writes:

>The document states the rationale.  No conversion to operating system
>representation and it is smaller.  In what way do you find it limiting?

It doesn't go beyond 2038, whereas UTCTime at least goes to 2050.

The proposal isn't so much limiting as... bizarre.  The ASN.1 time formats
have been around forever. everything supports them, and this proposal is for a
format that isn't even as "flexible" as the not-very-flexible UTCTime.  What
real problem is this addressing?  Why a time_t?  Why not a 64-bit time to keep
the Java guys happy?  Or the Windows nanoseconds-since-1600 time?  Or the
Macintosh seconds-since 1904?  You could make it a choice, so no-one would
feel left out, with at least one of the choices being an identified-by-OID
value so everyone could add their own favourite oddball format...

Peter.



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Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 11:31:00 -0400
To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz
From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
Cc: ietf-smime@imc.org
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The document states the rationale.  No conversion to operating system 
representation and it is smaller.  In what way do you find it limiting?

The INTEGER is not limited to four octets.  Did you read it that way?

Russ

At 10:55 AM 9/1/2004, Peter Gutmann wrote:
>Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> writes:
>
> >Since this WG has most of the CMS experts in it, I would appreciate 
> review of
> >the document that was posted earlier this week:  draft-housley-
> >binarytime-00.txt.
>
>Uhh... what on earth motivated this?  It's a time format that's even more
>limited than UTCTime.
>
>Peter.



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From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
To: housley@vigilsec.com, ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: Re: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
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Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> writes:

>Since this WG has most of the CMS experts in it, I would appreciate review of
>the document that was posted earlier this week:  draft-housley-
>binarytime-00.txt.

Uhh... what on earth motivated this?  It's a time format that's even more
limited than UTCTime.

Peter.



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Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 09:21:46 -0400
To: ietf-smime@imc.org
From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt
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Since this WG has most of the CMS experts in it, I would appreciate review 
of the document that was posted earlier this 
week:  draft-housley-binarytime-00.txt.

My intention is to request that this document be published as a 
standards-track RFC.

Thanks,
   Russ