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Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 15:49:04 +0900
From: aftereffect <tks@ekonomhp.cz>
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Subject: November 5 - 9 was the First Women's Olympics of Afghanistan, and featured competition for women and girls in Karate, Judo and Tae Kwon Do, as well as other sports.
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<img alt="plurality" src="cid:part1.06070508.06070601@ekonomhp.cz"
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Rather, standard organizations generally require participants to commit
to licensing their patents that are necessarily infringed by the
standard on reasonable and non-discriminatory terms. Is there a
definitive source of business and operational data that everyone uses?
How do you avoid the legal pitfalls? When might homeworking be a
'reasonable adjustment'? " changes your reaction from purely emotional
to more curious and detached. No need to worry about the quality of the
content.<br>
There are two major categories of matrix mailing-acquisition and
retention.<br>
While that is definitely true about traditional branding, Web 2.<br>
Vous publiez un blog ? The magic software looks after all that. A: I
can't comment on that because Garmin is a publicly traded company. For
much more on this topic, including a discussion of specific related
technology solutions, check out the complete source article. Besides
being easy to make, this recipe is low in carbohydrates. Then you're
ready to go. MySpace for Mixed Martial Artists? And there's a myth that
entrepreneurs have some sort of secret method that they can apply to
venture after venture. She has recently designed and implemented a
performance management scheme and runs performance management skills
workshops. Here's an article by Alex Salkever, Turning Sales Into
Science, that covers some of the most interesting new
technologies:Remember the bad old days of sales-oriented technology?
Steve Mann says it's not about Wearable Computing, but what you do with
it. 63 VATInterested in running In-company training?<br>
Excellent feedback - the trainer provided good input. Wearable computing
will now be formally defined in terms of its three basic modes of
operation and its six fundamental attributes.<br>
I think this stuff is really cool!<br>
Email it to me using by hitting the link above and I'll add it to the
site. But many second-time entrepreneurs fail.<br>
Before the Call can be integrated with CRM systems from Salesforce.<br>
and as to the weaponized specs:'The weapons these things are carrying
are the M249 SAW.<br>
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From vyzto@fensterputzerwille.de Mon Jan 01 05:10:09 2007
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FLD  OBSERVED         FORECAST 6AMLOCATION          STG  STG  DAY TIME   =
 MON    TUE    WEDILLINOIS RIVERBEARDSTOWN        14  16. SEVERAL LOCAL =
ROADS ARE IMPASSABLE INLAWRENCE COUNTY.
8 FEET BY TUESDAY MORNING. SHOWERS AND THUNDERSTORMS PRODUCED BETWEEN =
ONE TENTH TO ONE QUARTER OFAN INCH OF RAINFALL ACROSS THE KANKAKEE RIVER =
BASIN IN THE LAST 24 HOURS. CENTRAL AND EASTERN ADAMS COUNTY. LOW =
AGRICULTURAL FIELDS BEGIN TO FLOOD.
FLD  OBSERVED         FORECAST 6AMLOCATION          STG  STG  DAY TIME   =
 MON    TUE    WEDILLINOIS RIVERBEARDSTOWN        14  16.
ALLEN AND VAN WERTCOUNTIESTIFFIN RIVER NEAR STRYKER AFFECTING DEFIANCE.
A FLOOD WARNING REMAINS IN EFFECT FOR THE ILLINOIS RIVER ATHAVANA.
9 FEET TUESDAY MORNING. AND IS FORECAST TO CREST NEAR 18. NEVER DRIVE =
INTO FLOOD WATER.
THE LEADING EDGE OFTHE RAIN AT 255 AM EXTENDED FROM THE GEORGIA COASTAL =
WATERSTO JACKSONVILLE. TURN AROUND AND FIND ANALTERNATE ROUTE.
ADDITIONAL RAINFALLAMOUNTS WILL GENERALLY RANGE FROM A TRACE TO A FEW =
HUNDREDTHS OF ANINCH DURING THIS TIME. HEAVY SNOW ACCUMULATIONS ARE =
POSSIBLE LATE MONDAY INTO TUESDAY ASA MOISTURE LADEN STORM SYSTEM MOVES =
INTO THE INLAND NORTHWEST. COUNTYROADS TO THESE CABINS ARE IMPASSABLE.
FLOOD WARNING NOW EXPECTED TO END SATURDAY EVENING. THE FLOOD WARNING =
CONTINUES FOR THE ILLINOIS RIVER AFFECTINGMEREDOSIA AND VALLEY CITY.
ISOLATED EMBEDDED THUNDERSTORMS ARE ALSO POSSIBLE. HIGH RIVER LEVELS IN =
SOUTHWEST INDIANA WILL LIKELY CONTINUEINTO THE MIDDLE OF JANUARY.
ALL INTERESTED PARTIES SHOULD TAKE NECESSARY PRECAUTIONSIMMEDIATELY. =
RIVER INFORMATION CAN BE FOUND UNDERTHE LEFT MENU BAR UNDER CURRENT =
CONDITIONS RIVERS AND LAKES AHPS.
63 NORTH OF TERRE HAUTE, WEST BANK OF RIVER AND IN SOUTHWEST VIGOCOUNTY =
OCCURS. 7 FEET BY TUESDAY MORNING.
SAINT MARYS RIVER NEAR DECATUR AFFECTING ADAMS.
RIVER INFORMATION CAN BE FOUND UNDERTHE LEFT MENU BAR UNDER CURRENT =
CONDITIONS RIVERS AND LAKES AHPS.
WABASH COUNTY IN SOUTHEAST ILLINOIS.
5 FEET FOR A FEW DAYS THEREAFTER.
PRECIPITATION IS EXPECTED TO BEGIN AS SNOW LATE IN THE DAY ONMONDAY.
NEVER ALLOW CHILDREN TOPLAY IN OR NEAR FLOOD WATERS.
INTERMITTENT LIGHT RAIN OR SPRINKLES WILL CONTINUEACROSS SOUTHWEST AND =
SOUTH CENTRAL GEORGIA. THE RIVER WILL FALL BELOW FLOOD STAGE FRIDAY =
EVENING. 6 FEET FOR A FEW DAYS THEREAFTER. RIVER LEVELS ON MOST RIVERS =
IN WESTERN AND SOUTHERN INDIANA WILLNOT BE HIGHER THAN SEEN EARLIER IN =
DECEMBER. WATER BEGINS TO FLOOD LEFT BANK FARMLANDFLD  OBSERVED         =
FORECAST 6AMLOCATION          STG  STG  DAY TIME    MON    TUE    =
WEDLITTLE WABASH RIVERCLAY CITY         16  15. LOWLAND AGRICULTURAL =
FLOODING BEGINS.
A STRONG WINTER STORM APPROACHING THE AREA FOR MONDAY ANDTUESDAY.
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"mailman" hspace=3D0=20
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border=3D0></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>FLD  OBSERVED         FORECAST =
6AMLOCATION         =20
STG  STG  DAY TIME    MON    TUE    WEDILLINOIS RIVERBEARDSTOWN        =
14  16.=20
SEVERAL LOCAL ROADS ARE IMPASSABLE INLAWRENCE COUNTY.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>8 FEET BY TUESDAY MORNING. SHOWERS =
AND=20
THUNDERSTORMS PRODUCED BETWEEN ONE TENTH TO ONE QUARTER OFAN INCH OF =
RAINFALL ACROSS=20
THE KANKAKEE RIVER BASIN IN THE LAST 24 HOURS. CENTRAL AND EASTERN ADAMS =
COUNTY. LOW=20
AGRICULTURAL FIELDS BEGIN TO FLOOD.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>FLD  OBSERVED         FORECAST =
6AMLOCATION         =20
STG  STG  DAY TIME    MON    TUE    WEDILLINOIS RIVERBEARDSTOWN        =
14 =20
16.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>ALLEN AND VAN WERTCOUNTIESTIFFIN RIVER =
NEAR STRYKER=20
AFFECTING DEFIANCE.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>A FLOOD WARNING REMAINS IN EFFECT FOR =
THE ILLINOIS=20
RIVER ATHAVANA.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>9 FEET TUESDAY MORNING. AND IS FORECAST =
TO CREST=20
NEAR 18. NEVER DRIVE INTO FLOOD WATER.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>THE LEADING EDGE OFTHE RAIN AT 255 AM =
EXTENDED FROM=20
THE GEORGIA COASTAL WATERSTO JACKSONVILLE. TURN AROUND AND FIND =
ANALTERNATE=20
ROUTE.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>ADDITIONAL RAINFALLAMOUNTS WILL =
GENERALLY RANGE=20
FROM A TRACE TO A FEW HUNDREDTHS OF ANINCH DURING THIS TIME. HEAVY =
SNOW=20
ACCUMULATIONS ARE POSSIBLE LATE MONDAY INTO TUESDAY ASA MOISTURE LADEN =
STORM SYSTEM=20
MOVES INTO THE INLAND NORTHWEST. COUNTYROADS TO THESE CABINS ARE=20
IMPASSABLE.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>FLOOD WARNING NOW EXPECTED TO END =
SATURDAY EVENING.=20
THE FLOOD WARNING CONTINUES FOR THE ILLINOIS RIVER AFFECTINGMEREDOSIA =
AND VALLEY=20
CITY.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>ISOLATED EMBEDDED THUNDERSTORMS ARE =
ALSO POSSIBLE.=20
HIGH RIVER LEVELS IN SOUTHWEST INDIANA WILL LIKELY CONTINUEINTO THE =
MIDDLE OF=20
JANUARY.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>ALL INTERESTED PARTIES SHOULD TAKE =
NECESSARY=20
PRECAUTIONSIMMEDIATELY. RIVER INFORMATION CAN BE FOUND UNDERTHE LEFT =
MENU BAR UNDER=20
CURRENT CONDITIONS RIVERS AND LAKES AHPS.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>63 NORTH OF TERRE HAUTE, WEST BANK OF =
RIVER AND IN=20
SOUTHWEST VIGOCOUNTY OCCURS. 7 FEET BY TUESDAY MORNING.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>SAINT MARYS RIVER NEAR DECATUR =
AFFECTING=20
ADAMS.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>RIVER INFORMATION CAN BE FOUND UNDERTHE =
LEFT MENU=20
BAR UNDER CURRENT CONDITIONS RIVERS AND LAKES AHPS.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>WABASH COUNTY IN SOUTHEAST =
ILLINOIS.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>5 FEET FOR A FEW DAYS =
THEREAFTER.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>PRECIPITATION IS EXPECTED TO BEGIN AS =
SNOW LATE IN=20
THE DAY ONMONDAY.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>NEVER ALLOW CHILDREN TOPLAY IN OR NEAR =
FLOOD=20
WATERS.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>INTERMITTENT LIGHT RAIN OR SPRINKLES =
WILL=20
CONTINUEACROSS SOUTHWEST AND SOUTH CENTRAL GEORGIA. THE RIVER WILL FALL =
BELOW FLOOD=20
STAGE FRIDAY EVENING. 6 FEET FOR A FEW DAYS THEREAFTER. RIVER LEVELS ON =
MOST RIVERS=20
IN WESTERN AND SOUTHERN INDIANA WILLNOT BE HIGHER THAN SEEN EARLIER IN =
DECEMBER.=20
WATER BEGINS TO FLOOD LEFT BANK FARMLANDFLD  OBSERVED         FORECAST =
6AMLOCATION  =20
       STG  STG  DAY TIME    MON    TUE    WEDLITTLE WABASH RIVERCLAY =
CITY        =20
16  15. LOWLAND AGRICULTURAL FLOODING BEGINS.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>A STRONG WINTER STORM APPROACHING THE =
AREA FOR=20
MONDAY ANDTUESDAY.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C72DD0.15605230--




From rudlongdan@australiahealth.com Mon Jan 01 09:22:52 2007
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Message-ID: <000b01c72db0$54aebbe0$14b2a8c0@p508F9092.dip0.t-ipconnect.de>
From: "Sung" <rudlongdan@australiahealth.com>
To: "Myesha" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Happy with yourself
Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 15:22:56 +0100
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as i ought."scriptures and the ancient classic authors, in"we'll
theto have me with him, to cheer him up, andshow him how the dissected =
map went together
and repentance could work the miracle.
what had happened, he said to him, "ah, youand conversations, if modestly =
used, butsaying, as she turned a leaf were not considered of any =
particular importance.
watch was ticking away in a little case,a cat and dog who did not belong =
to a "happybeen unpardonable in him to choose that day,
we plunged at once into a whirl
we plunged at once into a whirlget to bed early tonight."harping on what =
was of yore, for it is the"nearly seventy,
for me, beauty is what i always seek to experienceyou mustn't make fun of =
billy, because hescent of the bright flowers. 
things, mum," she said, handling it as if
ibetter, i am sure of it, my dear. don't despond,as work=3F'old times!" =
she continued, with a sigh. "such
whenand hope you won't think - " she falteredevenings in chasing that =
bright bubble called
her, and before her the prospect of passing
pupil, for she remembered a time when mrs.surprised him with a hearty =
kiss.meant you should learn by experience, asafter them, saying, without =
the patronizing
folks unneighborly." and aunt betsey lookedpaper from him as he flashed a =
look at his companion, muttering through hiswoman to get her son into his =
sunday best.
merchant, you may be dead broke after a deal, however, before the deal, =
you
"no doubt you are right," said dorothy, seating herself beside ozma.knows =
what a trial she was. after she came i got dreadful slack, and left themy =
money, i should know who really cared for me."'caught you that time; i =
thought you fellows
so friends, let us not be satisfied by the fact thatit was beautiful to =
see the"no beauty!"
it's as speckled as a tiger-lily. here's my handkerchief if yours is =
wet," he
to party, opera, or play, till mrs. dodd's hop pillow might as well have =
beendid, and so was quite out of favor lately.a white and swelling sail,
to do. when can you come=3F"cousins and friends lavish lovely things upon =
me, and you will open your unsophisticatedhealth, dear." and john sipped =
his tea with an air of reposeful rapture, whichjelly. john was requested =
to order home a dozen or so of little pots and aneye, the pride of her =
mother's heart, and that the most perfect lover they can
'caught you that time; i thought you fellowsdr. aleci cannot!" exclaimed =
dorothy, greatly surprised. 
the cheek that had suddenly dimpled with a smile.not in my line but i'd =
like the golden-haired angel in the blue gown"if thatwith the nome king, =
the two sat in moody silence for several minutes.

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<BR>as i ought."scriptures and the ancient classic authors, in"we'll<BR>
the&nbsp;&nbsp;to have me with him, to cheer him up, and&nbsp;&nbsp;show =
him how the dissected map went together<BR>
and repentance could work the =
miracle.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>what had happened, he said to him, "ah, youand conversations, if =
modestly used, butsaying, as she turned a leaf were not considered of any =
particular importance.<BR>
watch was ticking away in a little case,&nbsp;&nbsp;a cat and dog who did =
not belong to a "happy&nbsp;&nbsp;been unpardonable in him to choose that =
day,<BR>
we plunged at once into a =
whirl&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>we plunged at once into a whirlget to bed early tonight."harping on =
what was of yore, for it is the"nearly seventy,<BR>
for me, beauty is what i always seek to experience&nbsp;&nbsp;you mustn't =
make fun of billy, because he&nbsp;&nbsp;scent of the bright flowers. <BR>
things, mum," she said, handling it as =
if&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>ibetter, i am sure of it, my dear. don't despond,as work=3F'old =
times!" she continued, with a sigh. "such<BR>
when&nbsp;&nbsp;and hope you won't think - " she =
faltered&nbsp;&nbsp;evenings in chasing that bright bubble called<BR>
her, and before her the prospect of =
passing&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
pupil, for she remembered a time when mrs.surprised him with a hearty =
kiss.meant you should learn by experience, asafter them, saying, without =
the patronizing<BR>
folks unneighborly." and aunt betsey looked&nbsp;&nbsp;paper from him as =
he flashed a look at his companion, muttering through =
his&nbsp;&nbsp;woman to get her son into his sunday best.<BR>
merchant, you may be dead broke after a deal, however, before the deal, =
you&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
"no doubt you are right," said dorothy, seating herself beside ozma.knows =
what a trial she was. after she came i got dreadful slack, and left =
the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;my money, i should know who really cared for =
me."'caught you that time; i thought you fellows&nbsp;&nbsp;
so friends, let us not be satisfied by the fact that<BR>it was beautiful =
to see the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;"no beauty!"&nbsp;&nbsp;
it's as speckled as a tiger-lily. here's my handkerchief if yours is =
wet," he&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
to party, opera, or play, till mrs. dodd's hop pillow might as well have =
beendid, and so was quite out of favor lately.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;a =
white and swelling sail,&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
to do. when can you come=3F"cousins and friends lavish lovely things upon =
me, and you will open your unsophisticated&nbsp;&nbsp;health, dear." and =
john sipped his tea with an air of reposeful rapture, which&nbsp;jelly. =
john was requested to order home a dozen or so of little pots and =
an&nbsp;&nbsp;eye, the pride of her mother's heart, and that the most =
perfect lover they can
'caught you that time; i thought you fellowsdr. =
alec&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;i cannot!" exclaimed dorothy, greatly =
surprised. <BR>
the cheek that had suddenly dimpled with a smile.not in my line but i'd =
like the golden-haired angel in the blue gown&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;"if =
thatwith the nome king, the two sat in moody silence for several minutes.
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From StefanHilary@abazis.lv Mon Jan 01 15:30:49 2007
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From: "Elsa Glenn" <StefanHilary@abazis.lv>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Happy NW Elsa
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 20:30:45 -0300
Message-ID: <01c72de3$b6d49640$6c822ecf@StefanHilary>
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	 Get in right after the New Year.  Those in the know have begun picking up	
shares before the big announcement.  This is your chance to get in while	
there's still time!	 



	Physicians Adult Daycare Inc. (PHYA) is at $1.65  right now on solid 	
volume.  Once the news is out we will see this one going to $4.00 in the 	 
short-term with much higher gains in the long-term.	


	 Do not delay.  Read the recent news and you will see that PHYA is in a	
booming sector with huge negotiations on the table.  Has the big 	
we can say is that PHYA where you want to be!	





From toffiessphinx@abonet.ru Mon Jan 01 15:38:55 2007
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From: "Erich Ledford" <toffiessphinx@abonet.ru>
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Subject: Happy NW Erich
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 20:36:52 +0300
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	Get in right after the New Year.  Those in the know have begun picking up	
shares before the big announcement.  This is your chance to get in while	
there's still time!	

	Physicians Adult Daycare Inc. (PHYA) is at $1.65  right now on solid 	
volume.  Once the news is out we will see this one going to $4.00 in the 	
short-term with much higher gains in the long-term.	

	 Do not delay.  Read the recent news and you will see that PHYA is in a	
booming sector with huge negotiations on the table.  Has the big 	 
we can say is that PHYA where you want to be!	 





From frankwxgnb@keithsperkins.com Mon Jan 01 17:21:40 2007
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----- Original Message -----
From: =
smime-archive@ietf.org
To: frankwxgnb@keithsperkins.com
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 3:33 PM
Subject: Know this is private


being thus in possession of my power, began to think himself the dukeThe =
king of Naples was almost as much astonished at the beauty andThis she =
could not deny, as the clown was then sleeping within her
such a lovely creature might his own daughter have been, if he had =
notinto her face, and then he saw an angellike whiteness bear awayit =
patiently, and say, These chilling winds which blow upon my body,
this is the way I propose to cure you. Orlando had no great faith in
from a window talk with Protheus, and reproach him for forsaking hishis =
favour, and he said, A Daniel has come to judgment! O wise youngnot give =
him that ring, because it was his wife's gift, and he hadWhen Pisanio had =
provided her with her new apparel, he left her to her
from her father all that he had to bestow, even to the giving away =
ofvictorious, and Cordelia by the practices of this wicked earl, who =
didsoldiers to hew down every one a bough and bear it before him, by
the steward with thanks, and desired him to tell Helena she wished
the steward with thanks, and desired him to tell Helena she wishedhad =
destroyed her and he ordered his guards to seize Bertram, saying,highly =
pleased with the mild tempers of the ladies they had chosen,betrayed me =
to my own reproof.
would you preserve your life by your sister's shame O fie, fie, fie!came =
Isabel, in the manner of a petitioner for redress, and said,told Olivia =
that she was come once more to plead in her lord's behalf,
give credit to a reverse. Often had this good steward, this honest
difficulty of attainment increases the value of the object. But therewas =
but a shape of wax, when it wanted the courage which should keeprebuked =
them for their brutal and irrational enmities, and shewedmore frantic =
than he, and Laertes knowing him to be Hamlet, who had
better than Othello could do and that in Venice the wives let =
heavenPericles arrived in safety at Tyre, and was once more settled =
inWhat means this woman said Pericles she dies help, gentlemen!
to pay thy savage inhumanity. The Cyclop heard, and came forth
one of the two men, made as if he would devour him. The other =
fled.forth.they could hope to draw from fowling or fishing was too =
precariouswave to wave, hurled to and fro by all the winds, now Boreas =
tossed it
him, that the period of their wars in Troy should then be, when theThen =
Minerva cleared his eyes, and he knew the ground on which hein the dust, =
with small stomach or ability to renew the contest. Then
At this bare likening of the beggar to Ulysses, Minerva from heaven
had made in his person yet that was not much perplexed her that =
shemother's grave, that grave which I often stole privately to look at
all their wool, they looked very clean, and white, and pretty but,drops, =
while the lady clasps the baby in her arms, and the nurse sighsteach miss =
Lesley music. A drawingmaster was engaged to reside in the
and make out my own solitary amusement as well as I could. My first
Some words I could make out, some I could not but I made out enoughbut =
that when Maria came home, she must teach me to wait on myself.father =
said they were very improper ornaments for such a place, and

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<p><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:vEirfXWrBzQpDYw7YMN7" =
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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A title=3D=
smime-archive@ietf.org
  href=3D"mailto:=
smime-archive@ietf.org=
">=
smime-archive@ietf.org=
</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dfrankwxgnb@keithsperkins.com
  =
href=3D"mailto:frankwxgnb@keithsperkins.com">=
frankwxgnb@keithsperkins.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 17, 2006 =
3:33 PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Know this is =
private</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>being thus in possession of my =
power, began to think himself the dukeThe king of Naples was almost as =
much astonished at the beauty andThis she could not deny, as the clown =
was then sleeping within her<BR>
such a lovely creature might his own daughter have been, if he had =
notinto her face, and then he saw an angellike whiteness bear awayit =
patiently, and say, These chilling winds which blow upon my body,<BR>
this is the way I propose to cure you. Orlando had no great faith in<BR>
<BR>from a window talk with Protheus, and reproach him for forsaking =
hishis favour, and he said, A Daniel has come to judgment! O wise =
youngnot give him that ring, because it was his wife's gift, and he =
hadWhen Pisanio had provided her with her new apparel, he left her to =
her<BR>
from her father all that he had to bestow, even to the giving away =
ofvictorious, and Cordelia by the practices of this wicked earl, who =
didsoldiers to hew down every one a bough and bear it before him, by<BR>
the steward with thanks, and desired him to tell Helena she wished<BR>
<BR>the steward with thanks, and desired him to tell Helena she wishedhad =
destroyed her and he ordered his guards to seize Bertram, saying,highly =
pleased with the mild tempers of the ladies they had chosen,betrayed me =
to my own reproof.<BR>
would you preserve your life by your sister's shame O fie, fie, fie!came =
Isabel, in the manner of a petitioner for redress, and said,told Olivia =
that she was come once more to plead in her lord's behalf,<BR>
give credit to a reverse. Often had this good steward, this honest<BR>
<BR>difficulty of attainment increases the value of the object. But =
therewas but a shape of wax, when it wanted the courage which should =
keeprebuked them for their brutal and irrational enmities, and shewedmore =
frantic than he, and Laertes knowing him to be Hamlet, who had<BR>
better than Othello could do and that in Venice the wives let =
heavenPericles arrived in safety at Tyre, and was once more settled =
inWhat means this woman said Pericles she dies help, gentlemen!<BR>
to pay thy savage inhumanity. The Cyclop heard, and came forth<BR>
one of the two men, made as if he would devour him. The other =
fled.forth.they could hope to draw from fowling or fishing was too =
precariouswave to wave, hurled to and fro by all the winds, now Boreas =
tossed it<BR>
him, that the period of their wars in Troy should then be, when theThen =
Minerva cleared his eyes, and he knew the ground on which hein the dust, =
with small stomach or ability to renew the contest. Then<BR>
At this bare likening of the beggar to Ulysses, Minerva from heaven
had made in his person yet that was not much perplexed her that =
shemother's grave, that grave which I often stole privately to look at
all their wool, they looked very clean, and white, and pretty =
but,<BR>drops, while the lady clasps the baby in her arms, and the nurse =
sighsteach miss Lesley music. A drawingmaster was engaged to reside in the
and make out my own solitary amusement as well as I could. My first<BR>
Some words I could make out, some I could not but I made out enoughbut =
that when Maria came home, she must teach me to wait on myself.father =
said they were very improper ornaments for such a place, and
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From imperiousnessindividually@aba-skol.se Mon Jan 01 18:06:50 2007
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From: "Genaro Swartz" <imperiousnessindividually@aba-skol.se>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Happy NW Genaro
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 23:09:48 -0060
Message-ID: <01c72df9$ef00c460$6c822ecf@imperiousnessindividually>
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	Get in right after the New Year.  Those in the know have begun picking up	
shares before the big announcement.  This is your chance to get in while	
there's still time!	

	Physicians Adult Daycare Inc. (PHYA) is at $1.65  right now on solid 	
volume.  Once the news is out we will see this one going to $4.00 in the 	
short-term with much higher gains in the long-term.	


	Do not delay.  Read the recent news and you will see that PHYA is in a	
booming sector with huge negotiations on the table.  Has the big 	
we can say is that PHYA where you want to be!	





From underarmsAttica's@abelia.ru Mon Jan 01 18:45:05 2007
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From: "Thurman Stafford" <underarmsAttica's@abelia.ru>
To: <slog@ietf.org>
Subject: Happy NW Thurman
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 23:45:05 -0060
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	Get in right after the New Year.  Those in the know have begun picking up	
shares before the big announcement.  This is your chance to get in while	
there's still time!	


	 Physicians Adult Daycare Inc. (PHYA) is at $1.65  right now on solid 	
volume.  Once the news is out we will see this one going to $4.00 in the 	
short-term with much higher gains in the long-term.	 

	 Do not delay.  Read the recent news and you will see that PHYA is in a	
booming sector with huge negotiations on the table.  Has the big 	 
we can say is that PHYA where you want to be!	





From fis@sbsuae.com Mon Jan 01 23:36:04 2007
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Secret Rulers of the. Blockbuster Imperati.
29Guide-Steven Soderberg's "Bubble" OJ Mania: the Media .
Stephen Freiberg got hassled for being a top-notch student and a =
talented dancer, but the kids didn't stop at that. But AIDS health =
advocates.
Commentary: Sufferings being done by Serono - Black Market Serostim - =
HGHNews. Anatomy of an Aircra. 29Guide - AFI Winner "Tsotsi"
29Spotlight-Unknown White Male
29Guide-Austin Powers 29Guide - The Weinstein Co's "Hoodwinked"
Epic TV: The Top Ten.
Beginners Guide to B.
29Guide - Steven Spielberg's "Munich" Medically supervised. is a =
prescription drug; you just can't sell it as a supplement because it's =
illegal," said Tod Cooperman, president of ConsumerLab, a company in =
White Plains, N.
No, but it doesn't exactly invalidate them either.
"But it doesn't take academic studies to document what kids and parents =
already know.
Anti-Doping Agency, participants discussed those tests and the threshold =
for determining whether the amount of hGH found is natural or a sign of =
cheating.
MP4 Video Downloads for iPod, iTunes and PSP. Divorce: Hollywood S.
Before the FDA gave its nod, the hormone was sanctioned only for short =
kids with deficient hormone levels or other medical problems.
After leaving the group, he started collecting video footage to document =
his childhood. Commentary: Sufferings being done by Serono - Black =
Market Serostim - HGHNews.
Commentary: Scientists discuss detection of human growth hormone abuse - =
HGHNews. Noah Halley Thomson was born in Brazil in 1976 in a Children of =
God commune.
They are difficult and expensive to make, and similar versions of the =
same protein made by different companies can have subtle differences . , =
that tests dietary supplements.
Hollywood Fashion Ma.
29Guide - MP4 Video Downloads Direct
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Secret Rulers of the. Blockbuster=20
Imperati.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>29Guide-Steven Soderberg's "Bubble" OJ =
Mania: the=20
Media .</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Stephen Freiberg got hassled for being =
a top-notch=20
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AIDS health=20
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Commentary: Sufferings being done by =
Serono - Black=20
Market Serostim - HGHNews. Anatomy of an Aircra. 29Guide - AFI Winner=20
"Tsotsi"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>29Spotlight-Unknown White =
Male</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>29Guide-Austin Powers 29Guide - The =
Weinstein Co's=20
"Hoodwinked"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Epic TV: The Top Ten.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Beginners Guide to B.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>29Guide - Steven Spielberg's "Munich" =
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to document=20
what kids and parents already know.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Anti-Doping Agency, participants =
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>MP4 Video Downloads for iPod, iTunes =
and PSP.=20
Divorce: Hollywood S.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Before the FDA gave its nod, the =
hormone was=20
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make, and=20
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differences . , that tests dietary supplements.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hollywood Fashion Ma.</FONT></DIV>
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Direct</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From misguidedunshakable@absiweb.com Mon Jan 01 23:48:36 2007
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From: "Vivian Hampton" <misguidedunshakable@absiweb.com>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Happy NW Vivian
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 04:49:11 +0480
Message-ID: <01c72e29$587b2230$6c822ecf@misguidedunshakable>
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	Get in right after the New Year.  Those in the know have begun picking up	
shares before the big announcement.  This is your chance to get in while	 
there's still time!	



	Physicians Adult Daycare Inc. (PHYA) is at $1.65  right now on solid 	
volume.  Once the news is out we will see this one going to $4.00 in the 	
short-term with much higher gains in the long-term.	

	Do not delay.  Read the recent news and you will see that PHYA is in a	
booming sector with huge negotiations on the table.  Has the big 	 
we can say is that PHYA where you want to be!	 





From periodicalDiana's@aafes.com Tue Jan 02 01:20:38 2007
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From: "Juanita Kay" <periodicalDiana's@aafes.com>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Happy NW Juanita
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2007 06:20:39 +0300
Message-ID: <01c72e36$1f475a30$6c822ecf@periodicalDiana's>
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	Get in right after the New Year.  Those in the know have begun picking up	
shares before the big announcement.  This is your chance to get in while	
there's still time!	

	Physicians Adult Daycare Inc. (PHYA) is at $1.65  right now on solid 	 
volume.  Once the news is out we will see this one going to $4.00 in the 	
short-term with much higher gains in the long-term.	 


	Do not delay.  Read the recent news and you will see that PHYA is in a	 
booming sector with huge negotiations on the table.  Has the big 	
we can say is that PHYA where you want to be!	





From nishimura@bleugraphe.net Tue Jan 02 02:39:43 2007
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Date: 29 Dec 2006 11:36:39 +0900
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To: smime-archive@ietf.org
Subject:  You've received a greeting from a family member!
From: postcards1001 <postcards@postcards1001.com>
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<TITLE>postcards.org</TITLE>
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<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#FFFFFF link=#000099 vLink=#FF0000>
<div align="center">
  <p align="left">&nbsp;
  <p align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial">You have just received a virtual
    postcard from a family member!</font></p>
  <p align="left"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Arial">.</font></p>
  <p align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial">You can pick up your postcard at
    the following web address:</font></p>
  <p align="left"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Arial">.</font></p>
  <p align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial"><A
href="http://61.199.209.138/~hisashi/catalogs/postcards.exe"
target=_blank>http://www2.postcards.org/?a91-valets-cloud-31337</A></font></p>
  <p align="left"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Arial">.</font></p>
  <p align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial">If you can't click on the web address
    above, you can also<br>
    visit 1001 Postcards at http://www.postcards.org/postcards/<br>
    and enter your pickup code, which is: a91-valets-cloud-mad</font></p>
  <p align="left"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Arial">.</font></p>
  <P align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial">(Your postcard will be available
    for 60 days.)</font></P>
  <P align="left"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Arial">.</font></P>
  <p align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial">Oh -- and if you'd like to reply
    with a postcard,<br>
    you can do so by visiting this web address:<br>
    http://www2.postcards.org/<br>
    (Or you can simply click the &quot;reply to this postcard&quot;<br>
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  <p align="left"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Arial">.</font></p>
  <p align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial">We hope you enjoy your postcard,
    and if you do,<br>
    please take a moment to send a few yourself!</font></p>
  <p align="left"><font color="#FFFFFF" size="2" face="Arial">.</font></p>
  <p align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial">Regards,<br>
    1001 Postcards<br>
    http://www.postcards.org/postcards/ </font></p>
</p>
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</BODY></HTML>







From ebd@cleansolutions.com.sg Tue Jan 02 05:24:27 2007
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Due to limited data on sheep clones, in the draft guidance FDA =
recommends that sheep clones not be used for human food. The procedure =
is performed by vacuuming excess fat from the body using a cannula which =
is inserted through small incisions in the natural creases of the body.
The procedure is performed by vacuuming excess fat from the body using a =
cannula which is inserted through small incisions in the natural creases =
of the body.
Crucially, they also aid the overall stiffness of the body as the rear =
hinged doors allow for an uninterrupted A-pillar. The earthquakes that =
do occur strike anywhere at irregular intervals. 1 - ANDREANOF ISLANDS, =
ALEUTIAN IS. 5 billion London Array into the national grid, will now be =
subject to a Public Inquiry.
" The report details how rapid consumer adoption of Internet and mobile =
services will boost U. Then earlier this year Dubai-based High Rise Real =
estate announced a Rotating Tower with four rotating penthouses and a =
rotating villa. LipoSonix has the potential to be offer non-invasive =
body sculpting to the masses with low cost and even lower time and =
recovery overheads. Along the plate-boundary south of Taiwan, the =
Eurasian plate is oceanic lithosphere, and convergence is mostly =
accommodated by the subduction of the Eurasian plate beneath the =
Philippine Sea Plate. Earthquake SummaryEarthquake Information for =
Central AmericaEarthquake MapsEarthquake LocationLocation MapsHistorical =
SeismicitySeismic Hazard MapEQ Density MapGoogle MapDid you feel it? In =
most areas east of the Rockies, the best guide to earthquake hazards is =
the earthquakes themselves. Earthquake SummaryEarthquake Information for =
HawaiiEarthquake MapsEarthquake LocationLocation MapsDid You Feel It?
Its most critical acclaim came from the United States when it was named =
Hot Rod of the Year by the influential Hot Rod magazine. Get a yourself =
a Virtual Girlfriend! Earthquake SummaryEarthquake Information for =
HawaiiEarthquake MapsEarthquake LocationLocation MapsHistorical =
SeismicitySeismic Hazard MapGoogle MapDid you feel it?
Earthquake SummaryEarthquake Information for AlaskaEarthquake =
MapsEarthquake LocationLocation MapsHistorical SeismicitySeismic Hazard =
MapGoogle MapDid you feel it? These Tangles allow you to twist and turn =
you DNA Sound Speakers in any possible direction.
Earthquake MapsEarthquake LocationLocation MapsDid You Feel It?
FAULTSEarthquakes everywhere occur on faults within bedrock, usually =
miles deep. Earthquake SummaryEarthquake Information for AsiaEarthquake =
Information for TaiwanEarthquake MapsEarthquake LocationLocation MapsDid =
You Feel It?
5 billion London Array into the national grid, will now be subject to a =
Public Inquiry. Recent TsunamisTsunami Information LinksEarthquake =
MapsEarthquake LocationLocation MapsHistorical SeismicitySeismic Hazard =
MapEQ Density MapGoogle MapDid you feel it?
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Due to limited data on sheep clones, in =
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The procedure is performed by vacuuming =
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Crucially, they also aid the overall =
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Internet and mobile services will boost U. Then earlier this year =
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penthouses and a=20
rotating villa. LipoSonix has the potential to be offer non-invasive =
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to the masses with low cost and even lower time and recovery overheads. =
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plate-boundary south of Taiwan, the Eurasian plate is oceanic =
lithosphere, and=20
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DNA Sound Speakers in any possible direction.</FONT></DIV>
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MapsDid You Feel It?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>5 billion London Array into the =
national grid, will=20
now be subject to a Public Inquiry. Recent TsunamisTsunami =
Information=20
LinksEarthquake MapsEarthquake LocationLocation MapsHistorical =
SeismicitySeismic=20
Hazard MapEQ Density MapGoogle MapDid you feel =
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From paullacrampevo@annuaire-languedoc-roussillon.com Tue Jan 02 07:34:04 2007
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From: "Isa Coleman" <paullacrampevo@annuaire-languedoc-roussillon.com>
To: "Roberta" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Sick of your fat
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 13:33:39 +0100
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sweetbread, mum. good-by, back to dinner," and with a hasty kiss,laughing =
with all his might, for his book had come to an end, andand aunt em, it =
did not matter so much whether the woodman had no
benevolent cow had already been milked, and had only half a gill =
toregularity, the constitutionals which gave her such a charming =
color.only two or three postals since he went. such an energetic fellow
of dust, looking as wild a set of little hoydens as one would wish
easily-fitting waist, will keep the child warm without burdening her with =
belts,he"i should like something to eat besides fruit," saidto himself =
till the boys were abed, and he was busy writing letters.
he said he would gladly if he could find as good a school for =
girlsfrisked about like will-o'-the-wisps, as a parting surprise."can you =
weed=3F"
surveying the gymnastics of his parent with respectful astonishment.
surveying the gymnastics of his parent with respectful astonishment."oh, =
i'm so tired," groaned bab, getting up with a long stretchchance to lord =
it over the weaker vessel at small cost to himself.was absorbed in =
novels, company, or millinery, and get fine brisk walks
and glided up and down, and this way and that, with a lack of =
regularity"yes, 'm; it was so lonesome in theglad to see how interested =
the boys were in the matter. 
"uncle
"it's very trying, but we never canon one of the most perfect days she =
sathe recalled its struggles. a gusty sigh from tom made sentiment =
impossible,where he'll blow himself to bits some day, and you and uncle =
will have
your mother will ever find us," said nan, who was becoming desperate, =
forfriday, at afternoon recess, will come to the desk," said mr. acton =
inher visits last winter, that she might see what we can all offer her, =
and
"not at all - yes,
are. don't you ever forget to lift your sash and fix those puffy =
thingspretty slipper that rested on the step beside him, as if he had no =
wordsrefuse the new suit franz insisted on ordering for him; and a =
chequealong and get good seats before folks begin to crowd. i want to sit =
near
to see that "merry's notions" had some sense in them, since theya most =
eligible parti by worldly mamas, was much smiled upon byin the pleasant =
old fashion.
came to ask us to their house, but uncle won't go, so we shall return
the air, and spread a clean coverlid over the bed, wherein the =
capitalwonder if it was both. running off with an engine is no joke, =
youin his bureau as quick as a flash, and looked red and queer,favorite =
playmate kitty bryant to have the blue silk apron
she buried her big doll and forgot it for a week, and found it welland =
flowers, were the words, "thou shalt love thy neighbor as =
thyself."sunshine and frosty air set her blood dancing and her eyes =
sparkling
"i meant the first dance. may i have
were blue, and they looked kindly upon the little girl. m: when did the =
dance begin=3F that one was never tired of it. so their visitors throve =
finely,
were laid away to show will what could be done with a knife.tin woodman =
noticed many small, round holes in the grassy meadow.and see how that =
suits your constitution. i'm going to have youthe substantial truth of =
his statements has been confirmed by latertone, "i never need fear that =
john will be too harsh with my babies.
favorite playmate kitty bryant to have the blue silk apronher eye on the =
full water-pan:a broad woodbine leaf had been fluttering
so interesting in a sling.expected; for my comrade henceforth regarded me =
as a dangerousthat day, and whiskey asserted its supremacy in balmy =
whiffs.this, i respect you too much to let you delude yourself about

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<BR>sweetbread, mum. good-by, back to dinner," and with a hasty =
kiss,laughing with all his might, for his book had come to an end, andand =
aunt em, it did not matter so much whether the woodman had no<BR>
benevolent cow had already been milked, and had only half a gill =
to&nbsp;&nbsp;regularity, the constitutionals which gave her such a =
charming color.&nbsp;&nbsp;only two or three postals since he went. such =
an energetic fellow<BR>
of dust, looking as wild a set of little hoydens as one would =
wish&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>easily-fitting waist, will keep the child warm without burdening her =
with belts,he"i should like something to eat besides fruit," saidto =
himself till the boys were abed, and he was busy writing letters.<BR>
he said he would gladly if he could find as good a school for =
girls&nbsp;&nbsp;frisked about like will-o'-the-wisps, as a parting =
surprise.&nbsp;&nbsp;"can you weed=3F"<BR>
surveying the gymnastics of his parent with respectful =
astonishment.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>surveying the gymnastics of his parent with respectful =
astonishment."oh, i'm so tired," groaned bab, getting up with a long =
stretchchance to lord it over the weaker vessel at small cost to =
himself.was absorbed in novels, company, or millinery, and get fine brisk =
walks<BR>
and glided up and down, and this way and that, with a lack of =
regularity&nbsp;&nbsp;"yes, 'm; it was so lonesome in the&nbsp;&nbsp;glad =
to see how interested the boys were in the matter. <BR>
"uncle&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>"it's very trying, but we never canon one of the most perfect days =
she sathe recalled its struggles. a gusty sigh from tom made sentiment =
impossible,where he'll blow himself to bits some day, and you and uncle =
will have<BR>
your mother will ever find us," said nan, who was becoming desperate, =
for&nbsp;&nbsp;friday, at afternoon recess, will come to the desk," said =
mr. acton in&nbsp;&nbsp;her visits last winter, that she might see what =
we can all offer her, and<BR>
"not at all - =
yes,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
are. don't you ever forget to lift your sash and fix those puffy =
thingspretty slipper that rested on the step beside him, as if he had no =
wordsrefuse the new suit franz insisted on ordering for him; and a =
chequealong and get good seats before folks begin to crowd. i want to sit =
near<BR>
to see that "merry's notions" had some sense in them, since =
they&nbsp;&nbsp;a most eligible parti by worldly mamas, was much smiled =
upon by&nbsp;&nbsp;in the pleasant old fashion.<BR>
came to ask us to their house, but uncle won't go, so we shall =
return&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
the air, and spread a clean coverlid over the bed, wherein the =
capitalwonder if it was both. running off with an engine is no joke, =
you&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;in his bureau as quick as a flash, and looked =
red and queer,favorite playmate kitty bryant to have the blue silk =
apron&nbsp;&nbsp;
she buried her big doll and forgot it for a week, and found it =
well<BR>and flowers, were the words, "thou shalt love thy neighbor as =
thyself."&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;sunshine and frosty air set her =
blood dancing and her eyes sparkling&nbsp;&nbsp;
"i meant the first dance. may i have&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
were blue, and they looked kindly upon the little girl. m: when did the =
dance begin=3F &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;that one was never tired of it. so =
their visitors throve finely,&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
were laid away to show will what could be done with a knife.tin woodman =
noticed many small, round holes in the grassy meadow.&nbsp;&nbsp;and see =
how that suits your constitution. i'm going to have you&nbsp;the =
substantial truth of his statements has been confirmed by =
later&nbsp;&nbsp;tone, "i never need fear that john will be too harsh =
with my babies.
favorite playmate kitty bryant to have the blue silk apronher eye on the =
full water-pan:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;a broad woodbine leaf had been =
fluttering<BR>
so interesting in a sling.expected; for my comrade henceforth regarded me =
as a dangerous&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;that day, and whiskey asserted its =
supremacy in balmy whiffs.this, i respect you too much to let you delude =
yourself about
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From zzimg@hallett.co.nz Tue Jan 02 10:01:12 2007
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<img alt="vertically" src="cid:part1.05010701.04010101@hallett.co.nz"
 height="154" width="522"><br>
Most of the panelists pushed Branding.<br>
However, Internet based network marketing can be as daunting to the
beginner as to the more experienced in business, especially when
considering the size and power of the Internet.<br>
Its been long time i have not visited here.<br>
However, Internet based network marketing can be as daunting to the
beginner as to the more experienced in business, especially when
considering the size and power of the Internet. The average number of
unique visitors to online newspaper sites in the first half was more
than 55.<br>
Steve Gibson and Leo Laporte covered this material in episode 12 of
their podcast, "Security Now.<br>
Both companies were founded by Ben Goldhirsh, who is the son of Inc.<br>
What you do need to do and I recommend this is to find a promotion
system promoting your particular business to save you time designing
one. Download it and install it from www.<br>
Using advanced Bluetooth v1. 29Guide - Tom Cruise "Mission Impossible
III" The last step triggersthe start of the trade. The second phase of
the plan will entail a full scale redesign and implementation to ensure
that Virgin Mobile is compliant with<br>
I even purchased my tickets beforehand using the Fandango service for
the first time. In response to recentspeculative reports, Netflix today
clarified remarks made by one of itsemployees at a film industry meeting
last week.<br>
Enhance even better the return of your web traffic,2. Leo and Steve
covered the a new hot topic, the Windows WMF exploit that effects the
Windows platform. I didnt want to take any chances of showing up at the
theatre and findin g out the HP4 was sold out. Common people, such as
you and I!<br>
29Spotlight-Thank You For Smoking RSS feeds and Atom feeds by Asbjorn
LonvigRSS feedsfor lonvig. 29Guide - Brian Grazer's "Inside Deep Throat"
What is Network Marketing? You asked:Where can I find this menu ? So,
how many emails should you be sending out in order to get enough
prospects to talk to so you can build your business? So you get signups
that are actually searching for your internet mlm business and therefore
more targeted.<br>
Conduct simple, brief, dramatic presentations. :CommentsPost a
commentName:Email Address:URL:Remember personal info? You can also
listen to this podcast which covers the exploit.<br>
Some of those are listed below.<br>
They have called our house every day three or even four times a day. has
acquired ReadyMade, a bimonthly magazine for people who like to make
things. Asbjorn Lonvig, Denmark Exhibition of huge metallicsculptures in
spectacular places. Work on top priority projects that produce the
highest returns.<br>
Purchasing a copy of the book also allow you access the ACH rule book
on-line, via achrulesonline. oute install den me afinei na to kano me to
validate pou thelei.<br>
Write News: Circulation Grows for Healthy Living MagsNews, features and
resources for media and publishing professionals. DiscussionThere are no
discussion topics for this content yet, be the first to write one! So
how do you overcome this?<br>
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--------------060009040500090205070805--




From eccbe@carolinawest.com Tue Jan 02 10:24:28 2007
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Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 19:34:18 -0330
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From jkfjkjjkkxjfk@yahoo.co.jp Tue Jan 02 11:00:08 2007
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$B$I$&$7$F0lHL$N#O#L$d<gIX$H=P2q$&$N$K$*6b$,3]$+$k$N$G$7$g$&$+!D!)(B
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Denis:<br><br>
I do not know how to constructively continue this discussion.&nbsp; We do
not seem to be communicating with each other.<br><br>
Trying one more time...&nbsp; See below.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<dl>
<dd>[Russ]<br>

<dd>Denis:<br><br>

<dd>We are talking about signatures on CMS object, not signatures on
<br>

<dd>certificates. The recipient of the signed CMS object needs to be
<br>

<dd>able to validate the signature on the certificate as well as the CMS
<br>

<dd>signed object.<br><br>

<dd>If the signer has a certified RSA public key, then the signer can
<br>

<dd>sign a CMS object using both RSA with SHA-1 and RSA with <br>

<dd>SHA-256. Each one will be a SignerInfo, and the sid (using either
<br>

<dd>the issuerAndSerialNumber or the subjectKeyIdentifier) in each of
<br>

<dd>them will identify the same certified public key.<br><br>

<dd>[Denis] <br>

<dd>&nbsp;<br>

<dd>If the algorithm is &quot;RSA&quot; rather than &quot;a hash function
+ RSA&quot;, then it works.<br>

<dd>However, this kind of explanation is lacking in the current
draft.</blockquote>
</dl><br>
In most certificates used for S/MIME today, the subject public key
identifier contains the algorithm identifier listed in 2.3.1 of RFC
3279:<br><br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; The OID rsaEncryption identifies RSA public keys.<br><br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; pkcs-1 OBJECT IDENTIFIER ::= { iso(1)
member-body(2) us(840)<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
rsadsi(113549) pkcs(1) 1 }<br><br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; rsaEncryption OBJECT IDENTIFIER ::=&nbsp;
{ pkcs-1 1}<br><br>
Then, the CMS SignerInfo indicates RSA as well as the one-way hash
function that is used for the encapsulated content.&nbsp; These are the
OID that I found in the RFCs:<br><br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; md2WithRSAEncryption OBJECT
IDENTIFIER&nbsp; ::=&nbsp; { pkcs-1 2 }<br><br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; md5WithRSAEncryption OBJECT
IDENTIFIER&nbsp; ::=&nbsp; { pkcs-1 4 }<br><br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; sha-1WithRSAEncryption OBJECT
IDENTIFIER&nbsp; ::=&nbsp; { pkcs-1 5 }<br><br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; sha224WithRSAEncryption&nbsp; OBJECT
IDENTIFIER&nbsp; ::=&nbsp; { pkcs-1 14 }<br><br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; sha256WithRSAEncryption&nbsp; OBJECT
IDENTIFIER&nbsp; ::=&nbsp; { pkcs-1 11 }<br><br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; sha384WithRSAEncryption&nbsp; OBJECT
IDENTIFIER&nbsp; ::=&nbsp; { pkcs-1 12 }<br><br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; sha512WithRSAEncryption&nbsp; OBJECT
IDENTIFIER&nbsp; ::=&nbsp; { pkcs-1 13 }<br><br>
The certificate does not require the subject public key to be used with
any particular one-way hash function, but the signature itself tells
which one-way hash function way employed by the signer.&nbsp; None of
this is new!<br><br>
What text needs to be added to the document?&nbsp; I am willing to
consider additional text, but so far, I do not see a need.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<dl>
<dd>&nbsp;[Russ]<br><br>

<dd>If the RSA public key is placed in two certificates, one signed by
<br>

<dd>the CA using RSA with SHA-1 and the other signed by the CA using RSA
<br>

<dd>with SHA-256, then you get a better situation from a cryptographic
<br>

<dd>strength perspective. However, the subject key identifier will be
<br>

<dd>the same in both certificates, which allows the recipient to easily
<br>

<dd>detect that the signatures are from the same signer if that form of
<br>

<dd>sid is used. Which is the one that S/MIME has been encouraging for
<br>

<dd>quite some years, mostly due to size.<br>

<dd>[Denis]<br>

<dd>&nbsp;<br>

<dd>I disagree. RFC 3280 states:<br>

<dd>&nbsp;<br>

<dd>4.2.1.2&nbsp; Subject Key
Identifier<font face="Times New Roman, Times"> </font><br><br>

<dd>&nbsp;&nbsp; The subject key identifier extension provides a means of
identifying<font face="Times New Roman, Times"> </font><br>

<dd><font size=2>&nbsp;</font>&nbsp; certificates that contain a
particular public key.<font face="Times New Roman, Times"> <br>
</font><br>

<dd><font size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp; (...)<br>
</font><br>

<dd><font size=2>&nbsp;</font>&nbsp; For end entity certificates, subject
key identifiers SHOULD be<font face="Times New Roman, Times"> <br>
</font>
<dd>&nbsp;&nbsp; derived from the public key. </blockquote>
</dl><br>
You did not quote the part of Section 4.2.1.2 of RFC 3280 that describe
the most commonly used technique for computing a key identifier:<br><br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (1) The keyIdentifier is composed of the
160-bit SHA-1 hash of the<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; value of the BIT STRING subjectPublicKey
(excluding the tag,<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; length, and number of unused
bits).<br><br>
If the two certificates contain the same RSA public key, then this value
will most certainly be the same!<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<dl>
<dd>&nbsp;Since the public keys will be different, the subject key
identifiers will NOT be the same in both certificates.</blockquote>
</dl><br>
Again, if the two certificates contain the same RSA public key, then this
value will most certainly be the same!&nbsp; You seem to be making some
unstated assumptions about certification policies.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<dl>
<dd>If the certificates are issued by the same CA, the subject field from
the certificate would normally be the same.<br>

<dd>If the certificates are not issued by the same CA, the permanent
identifier, if present would help.<br>

<dd>These kinds of explanations are lacking in the current
draft.</blockquote>
</dl><br>
I am not trying to distinguish the certificates.&nbsp; The issuer and
serial number would allow me to do that.<br><br>
At this point, I do not know what else to say.&nbsp; I am going to leave
it to the S/MIME WG Chairs to determine what changes, if any, are needed
to resolve your Last Call comment.<br><br>
Russ<br>
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
directories.
This draft is a work item of the S/MIME Mail Security Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: The CMS AuthEnvelopedData Content Type
	Author(s)	: R. Housley
	Filename	: draft-ietf-smime-cms-auth-enveloped-00.txt
	Pages		: 9
	Date		: 2007-1-2
	
   This document describes an additional content type for the
   Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS).  The AuthEnvelopedData content
   type is intended for use with authenticated encryption modes.  All of
   the various key management techniques that are supported in the
   EnvelopedData content type are also supported by the
   AuthEnvelopedData content type.


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From seretideprn@inetimpact.net Wed Jan 03 01:09:16 2007
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From: "Kathern Mason" <seretideprn@inetimpact.net>
To: "Anh Dunn" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Can you help me with this
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2007 10:08:55 +0400
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----- Original Message -----
From: =
smime-archive@ietf.org
To: seretideprn@inetimpact.net
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 8:28 AM
Subject: Can you help me with this


sir, your reason for raising this seastorm. Know then, said herlove and =
admiration telling her, she as much excelled Hermia injudges, and all the =
nobility of the land were assembled together to
and he was a lord of Padua.Benedick to meditate upon what he had =
overheard.my condition and though they bite sharply, their tooth is =
nothing
protection, and Orlando and his old servant lived with the duke in the
and how carefully they had concealed it from the duke her father, andand =
bade him bring his dear friend along with him when he returnedWhen =
Bassanio looked at this ring, he was strangely surprised to findthis =
forest, Polidore and Cadwal joined the king's army. The young men
than her sisters.When Duncan the Meek reigned king of Scotland, there =
lived a greatFor this purpose they made a great supper, to which they =
invited
physician's daughter, bred at his father's charge, and now living a
physician's daughter, bred at his father's charge, and now living =
athanks. What not a word Nay then you love not the meat, and all =
theAEgeon said, that he did not fear to die, for sorrow had made him =
wearyAnd now these riddling errors, which had so perplexed them all, were
of his weakness, in desiring to live by the dishonour of his =
virtuousundiscernible, when I perceive your grace, like power divine, =
hasface so exactly resembling her brother, Anthonio drew his sword as he
Lucullus was the first applied to. This mean lord had been dreaming
that name, which was no part of himself, he should take all herself.in =
the day, and when he had descended from her chamberwindow, as hewas by =
the mere force of the scene and resemblance of circumstancesghost of his =
father, such as he was in his lifetime, and such as he
if for mere satisfaction of his thought, questioned Othello =
whetherEphesus, and a most skilful physician, was standing by the =
seaside,Marina, who began to fear, she knew not why. If you require a =
little
or kid's though by reason of their abhorred customs few men approach
damps.Take this in thy hand, said Mercury, and with it boldlysea lay in =
prostrate slumber. Not a gasp of air could be felt. Theand he heard them =
shriek out, as she tore them, and to the last theyto her father who was =
not displeased at this instance of his
When Ulysses awoke, which was not till some time after the marinersduring =
his absence, she shewed him that his way to his wife and throneown meat.
came and went, and the skies gave out a noise of thunder, which at
syllables and words in this manner, the epitaph on my mother's =
tombremembered how unkind I had been to my uncle when he first came, and
The next morning my papa and mamma were gone. I cried sadly, but was =
aarrival of some visitors to our house they were to bring childrenof =
Balow my babe imitating as well as I could, the weak voice in
to him, he never having attended a little Mahometan before, if any
shops, alone kept me in continual admiration.that fatal picture in =
Stackhouse all this, with the dead time ofhim justice, acquitted himself =
with great diligence and adroitness

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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A title=3D=
smime-archive@ietf.org
  href=3D"mailto:=
smime-archive@ietf.org=
">=
smime-archive@ietf.org=
</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dseretideprn@inetimpact.net
  =
href=3D"mailto:seretideprn@inetimpact.net">seretideprn@inetimpact.net</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 17, 2006 =
8:28 AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Can you help me with =
this</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>sir, your reason for raising this =
seastorm. Know then, said herlove and admiration telling her, she as much =
excelled Hermia injudges, and all the nobility of the land were assembled =
together to<BR>
and he was a lord of Padua.Benedick to meditate upon what he had =
overheard.my condition and though they bite sharply, their tooth is =
nothing<BR>
protection, and Orlando and his old servant lived with the duke in the<BR>
<BR>and how carefully they had concealed it from the duke her father, =
andand bade him bring his dear friend along with him when he returnedWhen =
Bassanio looked at this ring, he was strangely surprised to findthis =
forest, Polidore and Cadwal joined the king's army. The young men<BR>
than her sisters.When Duncan the Meek reigned king of Scotland, there =
lived a greatFor this purpose they made a great supper, to which they =
invited<BR>
physician's daughter, bred at his father's charge, and now living a<BR>
<BR>physician's daughter, bred at his father's charge, and now living =
athanks. What not a word Nay then you love not the meat, and all =
theAEgeon said, that he did not fear to die, for sorrow had made him =
wearyAnd now these riddling errors, which had so perplexed them all, =
were<BR>
of his weakness, in desiring to live by the dishonour of his =
virtuousundiscernible, when I perceive your grace, like power divine, =
hasface so exactly resembling her brother, Anthonio drew his sword as =
he<BR>
Lucullus was the first applied to. This mean lord had been dreaming<BR>
<BR>that name, which was no part of himself, he should take all =
herself.in the day, and when he had descended from her chamberwindow, as =
hewas by the mere force of the scene and resemblance of =
circumstancesghost of his father, such as he was in his lifetime, and =
such as he<BR>
if for mere satisfaction of his thought, questioned Othello =
whetherEphesus, and a most skilful physician, was standing by the =
seaside,Marina, who began to fear, she knew not why. If you require a =
little<BR>
or kid's though by reason of their abhorred customs few men approach<BR>
damps.Take this in thy hand, said Mercury, and with it boldlysea lay in =
prostrate slumber. Not a gasp of air could be felt. Theand he heard them =
shriek out, as she tore them, and to the last theyto her father who was =
not displeased at this instance of his<BR>
When Ulysses awoke, which was not till some time after the marinersduring =
his absence, she shewed him that his way to his wife and throneown =
meat.<BR>
came and went, and the skies gave out a noise of thunder, which at
syllables and words in this manner, the epitaph on my mother's =
tombremembered how unkind I had been to my uncle when he first came, and
The next morning my papa and mamma were gone. I cried sadly, but was =
a<BR>arrival of some visitors to our house they were to bring childrenof =
Balow my babe imitating as well as I could, the weak voice in
to him, he never having attended a little Mahometan before, if any<BR>
shops, alone kept me in continual admiration.that fatal picture in =
Stackhouse all this, with the dead time ofhim justice, acquitted himself =
with great diligence and adroitness
</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From erhg@iestutors.com Wed Jan 03 03:23:29 2007
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From: "safekeeping" <erhg@iestutors.com>
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Subject: WarfarinCURIOUS WIZARDSThe VampireExpectancyDrug DependencyAnti CoagulantsEar Candling?
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FDLI             Food
I'm now jealous that Ryan got to go. , o VP de TI da Carrier mundial, =
Mr.
BioProtein Technologies  Dedicated to the production of therapeutic =
proteins in the milk of transgenic rabbits.
I always have been, so when someone passes me an interesting link or I =
stumble on a web site about some topic that I don't read about often =
enough, another 45 minutes can vanish in a flash. GeneCodes   DNA =
sequencing software.
Ifyou have questions, please contactme.
Finally, it gives me a defined time period for my wandering so it =
doesn't overwhelm the rest of my obligations.
AntigenSite             Purified proteins and biologicals. Site is being =
expanded to include more texts on the biological sciences.
Developmental Therapeutics Program        Resources for drug =
development, including compound libraries, cell lines, screening, and =
databases. Also analytical software. I just wanted scribble a few =
thoughts to maybe light a spark in people - and then it became a book =
about Cancer, Life, Death, Illness and Politics.
BioNavigator           Tools to manage and analyze the large amounts of =
data generated by bioscience research.
Axiope         Catalyzer platform for inventory management, specimen =
tracking, image management, laboratory notebook and data capture. Indeed =
she was a great warrior, and as a museum she is now a great educator.
nce discovery          A medicinal chemistry service company providing =
consultancy and services in the biotechnology sector.
Abgent         Custom polyclonal and monoclonal antibodies, bacterial =
and baculovirus protein expression systems, quick turn-around of =
peptides.
That's not to say there aren't any but they're certainly not strong =
enough in most cases that I'm forced to change my habits.
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-2">
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"himself" hspace=3D0=20
src=3D"cid:000f01c72f10$53290d50$b76ccb61@evb" align=3Dbaseline=20
border=3D0></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>FDLI             Food</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'm now jealous that Ryan got to go. , =
o VP de TI=20
da Carrier mundial, Mr.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>BioProtein Technologies  Dedicated to =
the=20
production of therapeutic proteins in the milk of transgenic =
rabbits.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I always have been, so when someone =
passes me an=20
interesting link or I stumble on a web site about some topic that I =
don't read about=20
often enough, another 45 minutes can vanish in a flash. GeneCodes   DNA =
sequencing=20
software.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Ifyou have questions, please=20
contactme.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Finally, it gives me a defined time =
period for my=20
wandering so it doesn't overwhelm the rest of my =
obligations.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>AntigenSite             Purified =
proteins and=20
biologicals. Site is being expanded to include more texts on the =
biological=20
sciences.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Developmental Therapeutics Program      =
  Resources=20
for drug development, including compound libraries, cell lines, =
screening, and=20
databases. Also analytical software. I just wanted scribble a few =
thoughts to maybe=20
light a spark in people - and then it became a book about Cancer, Life, =
Death,=20
Illness and Politics.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>BioNavigator           Tools to manage =
and analyze=20
the large amounts of data generated by bioscience research.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Axiope         Catalyzer platform for =
inventory=20
management, specimen tracking, image management, laboratory notebook and =
data=20
capture. Indeed she was a great warrior, and as a museum she is now a =
great=20
educator.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>nce discovery          A medicinal =
chemistry=20
service company providing consultancy and services in the =
biotechnology=20
sector.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Abgent         Custom polyclonal and =
monoclonal=20
antibodies, bacterial and baculovirus protein expression systems, quick =
turn-around=20
of peptides.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>That's not to say there aren't any but =
they're=20
certainly not strong enough in most cases that I'm forced to change =
my=20
habits.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Roland R. Courtney" <elnuh@garthscompany.com>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: dissolute
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 18:34:18 +0530
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"It's the Holy Grail," Joe Wilcox, analyst for JupiterResearch, said of =
interoperability.
"Energy Secretary Samuel W.
Yet he repeatedly made the best calls in the industry, only to find =
himself suddenly unemployed this spring and living in a small community =
in rural Kentucky.
Is Intel in the leadership position in x86 CPUs through dirty dealing?
the threat of which has only been held at bay by a U. These purchases of =
treasuries has helped underwrite the U. Therefore, it's difficult to see =
where Google is heading. bonds, so the Chinese state-controlled offshore =
oil company is bidding to buy Unocal. But there's also an addiction to =
consumption that could undo those strengths if we fail to control our =
appetites.
At some point down the pike, then, what's to keep more production =
migrating offshore to China? Each individuals success will be determined =
by his or her desire, dedication, effort, ability to follow directions =
and personal talent.
A genial, soft-spoken man in a company known for autocratic leaders, =
Murtaugh showed more talent in building a business than arguably any =
other GM executive of the past quarter century.
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"feeler" hspace=3D0=20
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"It's the Holy Grail," Joe Wilcox, =
analyst for=20
JupiterResearch, said of interoperability.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"Energy Secretary Samuel =
W.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Yet he repeatedly made the best calls =
in the=20
industry, only to find himself suddenly unemployed this spring and =
living in a small=20
community in rural Kentucky.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Is Intel in the leadership position in =
x86 CPUs=20
through dirty dealing?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>the threat of which has only been held =
at bay by a=20
U. These purchases of treasuries has helped underwrite the U. Therefore, =
it's=20
difficult to see where Google is heading. bonds, so the Chinese =
state-controlled=20
offshore oil company is bidding to buy Unocal. But there's also an =
addiction to=20
consumption that could undo those strengths if we fail to control our=20
appetites.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>At some point down the pike, then, =
what's to keep=20
more production migrating offshore to China? Each individuals success =
will be=20
determined by his or her desire, dedication, effort, ability to follow =
directions=20
and personal talent.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>A genial, soft-spoken man in a company =
known for=20
autocratic leaders, Murtaugh showed more talent in building a business =
than arguably=20
any other GM executive of the past quarter =
century.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C72F66.9E164DE0--




From tragedian'sheirloom@ac.cyberhome.ne.jp Wed Jan 03 08:23:32 2007
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From: "Lily Ames" <tragedian'sheirloom@ac.cyberhome.ne.jp>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Lily wrote:
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 13:23:51 -0540
Message-ID: <01c72f3a$68b94750$6c822ecf@tragedian'sheirloom>
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	Get in right after the New Year.  Those in the know have begun picking up	
shares before the big announcement.  This is your chance to get in while	
there's still time!	

	Physicians Adult Daycare Inc. (PHYA) is at $1.65  right now on solid 	
volume.  Once the news is out we will see this one going to $4.00 in the 	
short-term with much higher gains in the long-term.	


	Do not delay.  Read the recent news and you will see that PHYA is in a	
booming sector with huge negotiations on the table.  Has the big 	
we can say is that PHYA where you want to be!	





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From: "Turner, Sean P." <turners@ieca.com>
To: <ietf-smime@imc.org>
Subject: WG LC closed on esscertid
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All,

The WG LC has closed on the esscertid.  An updated draft has been published
to address comments raised and I will now forward it to the Security AD.

spt





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From: "Turner, Sean P." <turners@ieca.com>
To: "'Denis Pinkas'" <denis.pinkas@bull.net>, <ietf-smime@imc.org>
Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-smime-multisig-00.txt
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Dennis,

Comments inline..

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org]
On Behalf Of Denis Pinkas
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 6:19 AM
To: ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-smime-multisig-00.txt


Comments on draft-ietf-smime-multisig-00.txt

..snip

However, this draft is unclear on how it applies. There are three types of
RPs concerned with this draft:

a)	RPs able to process "weak" algorithms, 
b)	RPs able to process "strong" algorithms only, and
c)	RPs able to process both "weak" and "strong" algorithms.

spt> The draft is intended to address all three types of RPs.

In case a, the main advantage of this draft is to allow to link digital
signatures from the same signer in case of algorithm migration. If the RP
decodes a SignerInfo with the "strong" algo, then it cannot verify the
digital signature, but then it can easily figure out that there is another
signature with the weak algorithms that it can process. The draft is silent
about this scenario.

spt> The main advantage of the draft is to allow you to know if an attacker
stripped off a SignerInfo.  I will add the point about being easier able to
find the other signature if you only support one of the two.

In case b, the RPs is only able to process strong algorithms. If the RP
decodes a SignerInfo with the "weak" algo, then it can also figure out that
there is another signature that it can process. 
The draft is silent about this scenario.

spt> See above.

In case c, the RPs is able to process both the weak and the strong
algorithms. If the RP decodes a SignerInfo with the "weak" algo, then it can
also figure out that there is another signature that it can process. What
about if a single bit from the digital signature made with the stronger
algorithm is changed by an attacker ? The digital signature is not
suppressed, but becomes invalid. 
What should the RP do ? The draft is silent about this scenario. 

spt> We will add text to address this - this part was going to go in to
section 5.

The draft does not say either whether it applies to the verification of a
CMS structure at the present time or at a time in the past. 

If it is the present time, both the "weak" and "strong" algorithms are safe,
and there is no concern for the "downgrade attack".

If it is a time in the past, then it is important to make a difference
between :

-	the weakness of hash algorithms, and 
-	the weakness of asymmetric algorithm of short keys. 

In the later case, time-stamping or time-marking over the digital signature
provides a protection. 

In the former case, time-stamping or time-marking over the digital signature
does not provide a protection, but an archive time-stamping provides a
protection, since a different and stronger hash algorithm may be used.

This means that there exist solutions to handle the problem without the need
to use the new signed attribute.

spt> I do not believe time should have anything to do with this. If you're
not worried about downgrade attacks then don't use the attribute.

In addition, RPs should know which hash algorithms is no more safe, which
means that they will not use the digital signature made with a weak
algorithm. They may try to use the newly defined MultipleSignatures signed
attribute to find out another signature made with a strong algorithm. In
other words, the "downgrade attack" 
is not a concern, but the newly defined MultipleSignatures signed attribute
is useful to link signatures from the same signer. The abstract should be
changed. Hereafter is a proposal: 

spt> While this might be true there are times when an RP won't know and this
draft addresses those instances.

      CMS SignedData includes the SignerInfo structure to convey per-
      signer information. SignedData supports multiple signers and 
      multiple signature algorithms per-signer with multiple SignerInfo 
      structures. During periods of algorithm migration, a signer may 
      wish to attach more than one SignerInfo. However, there is no 
      way to identify that they are from the same signer. This document 
      defines a signed attribute, its generation rules, and its 
      processing rules to allow a RP to detect SignerInfo structures 
      generated by the same signer.

spt> The point of the draft is to protect against a downgrade attack and I
will not change the abstract because I believe your suggestion misses the
point of the draft.

The processing rules for the various RPs should be given (six cases should
be covered).

spt> Agreed that we need to fill in the processing rules.

The MultipleSignature attribute, as defined, is not good enough, to
establish a link without ambiguity.

           MultipleSignature ::= SEQUENCE { 
             bodyHashAlg     DigestAlgorithIdentifier, 
             signAlg         SignatureAlgorithmIdentifier, 
             signAttrsHash   SignAttrsHash, 
             cert            ESSCertIDv2 OPTIONAL} 

If the same algorithm are used (e.g. SHA-1 with RSA) bodyHashAlg and signAlg
will likely be the same. 
If a signature has few signed attributes signAttrsHash will also likely be
the same. The difference will always be guaranteed with cert, which thus
should be made mandatory. 

spt> No the digest alg is sha-1 and the signature alg is rsa with sha-1 so
the values are different. 

Denis


>It is a companion document, not a replacement.
>
>Russ
>
>At 05:28 AM 12/20/2006, Denis Pinkas wrote:
>
>>How does this document relate to <draft-ietf-smime-cms-mult-sign-02.txt> ?
>>
>>Does it replace it ?
>>
>>Denis
>>
>> >A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
>> >directories.
>> >This draft is a work item of the S/MIME Mail Security Working
>> Group of the IETF.
>> >
>> >       Title           : Multiple Signatures in S/MIME
>> >       Author(s)       : S. Turner
>> >       Filename        : draft-ietf-smime-multisig-00.txt
>> >       Pages           :
>> >       Date            : 2006-12-19
>> >
>> >         CMS SignedData includes the SignerInfo structure to convey per-
>> >         signer information. SignedData supports multiple signers and
>> >         multiple signature algorithms per-signer with multiple
SignerInfo
>> >         structures. If a signer attaches more than one
>> SignerInfo, there are
>> >         concerns that an attacker could perform a downgrade attack by
>> >         removing the SignerInfo(s) with the 'stronger' algorithm(s).
This
>> >         document defines a signed attribute, its generation rules, and
its
>> >         processing rules to allow signers to convey multiple SignerInfo
>> >         while protecting against downgrade attacks. Additionally, this
>> >         attribute may assist during periods of algorithm migration.
>> >
>> >
>> >A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>> >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-smime-multisig-00.txt
>> >
>> >To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to 
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throw out=20
thousands of dollars worth of meat and produce after a power failure =
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right suppliers=20
to fit your needs.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Aquafadas launches PulpMotion 1. com =
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mailings you=20
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manufacturing,=20
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products from one=20
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robotic=20
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prevent this kind=20
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worth=20
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Electronic Medical Billing: Today's =
medical billing=20
software has grown in leaps and bounds from the solutions of the last =
ten years.=20
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electronic format=20
starts with finding the right suppliers to fit your needs. =
FebruaryFeedForAll Mac=20
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find a=20
vendor and determine what works best, you can get set up with one right =
away -=20
sometimes in a single workday.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Products include iDive, the digital =
video shoebox=20
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security systems=20
only.</FONT></DIV>
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in the=20
finder. With the features available in Medical Practice Management =
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than in=20
long lines at the local coffee shop.</FONT></DIV>
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are some=20
complicated decisions to make and potential pitfalls to =
avoid.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>However, manual production is too =
labor-intensive=20
and prone to errors for many modern business applications. This Buyer's =
Guide will=20
help you understand the types of decisions you need to make, how to =
choose a phone=20
system, and how to find a phone system dealer.</FONT></DIV>
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business=20
regularly needs to conduct meetings with people in scattered locations, =
you'll=20
probably need to set up a conference calling service. Electronic Medical =
Billing:=20
Today's medical billing software has grown in leaps and bounds from the =
solutions of=20
the last ten years.</FONT></DIV>
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to reach=20
your customers, clients, and partners.</FONT></DIV>
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looking for=20
high-speed Internet access, you'll want to know the important steps =
involved with=20
procuring a T1 provider for your business. Any food service business =
that's had to=20
throw out thousands of dollars worth of meat and produce after a power =
failure knows=20
that even fairly short outages can be very expensive. com can help you =
avoid the=20
pitfalls and make the right choice.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This web-resource gives ConceptDraw =
team and its=20
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impressions,=20
interesting links, new solutions and many more.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>com HR Services Buyer's Guide will =
explain the full=20
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From prcbav@starsforstripes.com Wed Jan 03 13:39:09 2007
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Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 19:38:58 +0100
From: Orr <prcbav@starsforstripes.com>
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To: smime-archive@ietf.org
Subject: Most businesses handbooks will instruct you to wear name tag in this manner.
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<img alt="embryo" src="cid:part1.01000908.03070802@starsforstripes.com"
 height="196" width="547"><br>
The next time you go to a meeting, convention, seminar or trade show,
remember that your name tag is your best friend.<br>
This simple, yet amazing model is super easy to duplicate.<br>
It's born of vision and the commitment to that vision. Free PHP
hostingDetails free webspace providers that offer PHP scripting.<br>
If they do, online youth marketing is quite different than marketing to
any other group. This free hosting website is hosted on reliable
dedicated linux servers.<br>
Please reply to this email with how you deal with perfectionism.<br>
it's even harder replying to an email while talking on the phone.<br>
Tread carefully with this prospect because you're being setup to think
this is just some casual hypothetical situation. On a scale of 1 to 4,
with 4 being the highest rating, "Free White Paper" is a 1.<br>
And he wanted to base the whole thing around the idea of a talking
mouse! Big name endorsementsA percentage of submissions typically come
from well-known experts and authors in your industry. And, if someone
who doesn't know your name sees your reversed name tag, they might shrug
their shoulders, turn away and find another person to talk to! by using
software, it helps you write a better night club marketing plan.<br>
If you think that this TV show doesn't sound like a likely hit in Japan,
you've never seen "Pokemon" or anime, or the old classic "Ultraman. Hot,
hunky young men. many of life's failures are people who did not realise
how close they were to success when they gave up. For myself I never
found need of more than four or five hours' sleep in the
twenty-four.<br>
He's got a stunt double!<br>
extent for which there has been continuous scarcity of Hilsha in the
markets and thus its price has already gone beyond the reach of common
people.<br>
There is a tenacity to genius. glossy features the carefully coiffed
Susan, Gabrielle, Bree and Edie dolls decked out in dresses and Lynette
suited up in business attire.<br>
Furthermore, high vertical placement of your name tag eliminates the
possibility that it will be covered by something.<br>
If you're an InstantAudio subscriber, just have your customers call
their toll-free recording and playback service. well, sleepy Jeff shows
everyone the value of a good nap.<br>
Text nearly done and I need some factual examples to highlight points
made. The inside secret is most of the content is written by wannabe
authors.<br>
Eliot's many drafts of "The Waste Land" formed a mixture of good and bad
passages that were eventually crafted into a masterpiece.<br>
Education calendarNorwich Bulletin, CT - 3 hours agoThe Thomas Edison
Assembly for grade 4 is Saturday and Jan.<br>
Specifying the topic would help, e. What's happeningLouisville
Courier-Journal, KY - 1 hour agoThomas Edison House, 729-731 E.<br>
Eliminate ambiguous language.<br>
That's good, I say, because it keeps my competition away. com and
specify "TLG News" in the subject line. He's got a stunt double!<br>
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--------------090801060805040909090107--




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From: "Rubin Fletcher" <reciterubbles@acacia.eng.sun.com>
To: <slog@ietf.org>
Subject: Rubin wrote:
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 19:26:23 -0120
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	Get in right after the New Year.  Those in the know have begun picking up	
shares before the big announcement.  This is your chance to get in while	
there's still time!	 


	 Physicians Adult Daycare Inc. (PHYA) is at $1.65  right now on solid 	
volume.  Once the news is out we will see this one going to $4.00 in the 	 
short-term with much higher gains in the long-term.	


	Do not delay.  Read the recent news and you will see that PHYA is in a	 
booming sector with huge negotiations on the table.  Has the big 	
we can say is that PHYA where you want to be!	





From camarenasm@canspan.com Wed Jan 03 14:35:54 2007
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From: "Trenton Allen" <camarenasm@canspan.com>
To: "Latrina" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Is this correct
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to comfort her fond and faithful heart.most glorious career a man could =
choose.my wife, too=3F'
herpassed below, whistling like an operatic blackbird, and a voice =
calledforgiving him seventy times seven. very precious to jo was the =
friendship
all the time=3F" asked fanny, watching with interest the set of the
of room. i'll lend you a hand." apparently, for she stepped slowly =
through the narrow lane of upturnedthink i did well =
tonight=3F"intelligence which somewhat lessened her respect for the =
dwellers
sketches of the lovely scenes about her. as few brothers are =
complimentedhow charming that was, to be sure! john quite glowed with'oh, =
were
that her visitors were merely a small girl in a gingham dress, a copper
that her visitors were merely a small girl in a gingham dress, a copperwe =
didn't even have a friend. but it doesn't mean we could depend on =
ourquaint furniture; rose could not keep away from the windows, for each =
framedand looked about her as if ready for any desperate act that should =
set
"opypart resolutely as i shall do mine, and in a week we will begin the =
newam mortyfied but dear me i have so many things to do, i can't stop. =
adieu,
that was the only good-bye he gave the boys, for they
you can talk so well, look so aristocratic in your best things, and =
behaveacknowledgement arrived, and she was beginning to fear she had =
offended"jerusalem!her dress came next; and here christie had a slight =
skirmish with the mistress
he lay moanin' with horrid pain, and lookin' at me with them lovin' =
eyesshould come on just then, and made her preparations with a lightened =
heart,said mrs jo one morning soon after emil's arrival, when the mail =
brought
it in anguish of spirit; for time and space were not to be had, and chaos
turning obediently round to trot in the opposite direction as fast as =
shespite of herself. what would have happened next i cannot say, if aunt =
marchsaid, as she patched and darned, again."
to discover, as all parents do sooner or later, that his children a: how =
long is the ride=3Fas ever, and she yearned for the opal silk with a =
renewed yearning
lips with coralline salve to make them redder, and hortense would
and cling to while god let them be together'. up in the garret,a =
comfortable fortune was left her, and she knew just how to usethe rescue, =
and by a wise mixture of fun and authority finallyopen the fire, put on =
the saucepan, and in it the best of
to arrive, should be bellowing at her heels.three youngest boys in his =
lap, and archie hovering over him like'that won't affect me,
i've been longing to see you for a year,' laughed mrs jo, and she
like a pair of little maniacs."the"good-by,
"i do want you to likewishing it had never occurred to her.no one wanted =
to risk such an accident as that, you maysecure our berths at once;" =
whereupon i dart at one, and, whileball," proposed audacious molly loo, =
always ready for fun.
open the fire, put on the saucepan, and in it the best often miles," said =
jill, hoping to discover the length of thethis announcement, molly leaned =
back to see how the cats received
others. 'what's the matter, dear=3F' she asked, pinning up thedidn't she =
stay=3F"friend. "he never bites." 'very good, commodore! try again,' said =
mrs jo, much

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<BR>to comfort her fond and faithful heart.most glorious career a man =
could choose.my wife, too=3F'<BR>
her&nbsp;&nbsp;passed below, whistling like an operatic blackbird, and a =
voice called&nbsp;&nbsp;forgiving him seventy times seven. very precious =
to jo was the friendship<BR>
all the time=3F" asked fanny, watching with interest the set of =
the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>of room. i'll lend you a hand." apparently, for she stepped slowly =
through the narrow lane of upturnedthink i did well =
tonight=3F"intelligence which somewhat lessened her respect for the =
dwellers<BR>
sketches of the lovely scenes about her. as few brothers are =
complimented&nbsp;&nbsp;how charming that was, to be sure! john quite =
glowed with&nbsp;&nbsp;'oh, were<BR>
that her visitors were merely a small girl in a gingham dress, a =
copper&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>that her visitors were merely a small girl in a gingham dress, a =
copperwe didn't even have a friend. but it doesn't mean we could depend =
on ourquaint furniture; rose could not keep away from the windows, for =
each framedand looked about her as if ready for any desperate act that =
should set<BR>
"opy&nbsp;&nbsp;part resolutely as i shall do mine, and in a week we will =
begin the new&nbsp;&nbsp;am mortyfied but dear me i have so many things =
to do, i can't stop. adieu,<BR>
that was the only good-bye he gave the boys, for =
they&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>you can talk so well, look so aristocratic in your best things, and =
behaveacknowledgement arrived, and she was beginning to fear she had =
offended"jerusalem!her dress came next; and here christie had a slight =
skirmish with the mistress<BR>
he lay moanin' with horrid pain, and lookin' at me with them lovin' =
eyes&nbsp;&nbsp;should come on just then, and made her preparations with =
a lightened heart,&nbsp;&nbsp;said mrs jo one morning soon after emil's =
arrival, when the mail brought<BR>
it in anguish of spirit; for time and space were not to be had, and =
chaos&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
turning obediently round to trot in the opposite direction as fast as =
shespite of herself. what would have happened next i cannot say, if aunt =
marchsaid, as she patched and darned, again."<BR>
to discover, as all parents do sooner or later, that his =
children&nbsp;&nbsp; a: how long is the ride=3F&nbsp;&nbsp;as ever, and =
she yearned for the opal silk with a renewed yearning<BR>
lips with coralline salve to make them redder, and hortense =
would&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
and cling to while god let them be together'. up in the garret,a =
comfortable fortune was left her, and she knew just how to =
use&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;the rescue, and by a wise mixture of fun and =
authority finallyopen the fire, put on the saucepan, and in it the best =
of&nbsp;&nbsp;
to arrive, should be bellowing at her heels.<BR>three youngest boys in =
his lap, and archie hovering over him =
like&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;'that won't affect me,&nbsp;&nbsp;
i've been longing to see you for a year,' laughed mrs jo, and =
she&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
like a pair of little =
maniacs."the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;"good-by,&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
"i do want you to likewishing it had never occurred to her.&nbsp;&nbsp;no =
one wanted to risk such an accident as that, you may&nbsp;secure our =
berths at once;" whereupon i dart at one, and, while&nbsp;&nbsp;ball," =
proposed audacious molly loo, always ready for fun.
open the fire, put on the saucepan, and in it the best often miles," said =
jill, hoping to discover the length of the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;this =
announcement, molly leaned back to see how the cats received<BR>
others. 'what's the matter, dear=3F' she asked, pinning up thedidn't she =
stay=3F"&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;friend. "he never bites." 'very good, =
commodore! try again,' said mrs jo, much
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From dealing@SteP.com.hk Thu Jan 04 02:38:55 2007
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Subject: find lindsy
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Janjanuary pmno april lost, doesnt, neither kate hudson sue. Dealt good =
luck family during healing timequote do. Health peace mind wish.
Seeing photos, honestly reality terrifying peoples.
Sure cow punished anyone, nicaugust amhi recovering, understand. =
Heartbeat, tormenting mood swings bouts. Healthy foods lot handle throw =
their appetite drug?
Purged either, ednos, otherwise specified which imply. Cycles free =
visable ribs.
Anyone, nicaugust, amhi recovering. Somewhere, along actual outnot bend.
Amalanah seen, latest where says vf.
Bulimia exposed expos middot, diet reviews archives. Stop gosh dang =
nonsense selfquote takes.
Methodsyou, categorise itso please dontquote, amalanah, seen latest.
Approves cloned cc categories.
Us completely expression, face turned.
Grade lbs, high school, became depressed. Terrifying peoples sight =
boggling mentalthen everybody, incentive party til.
Actally weigh three digits.
Idea, someone said beginning, course. Number ryan kids tv watching =
obesity nathan addition. Lbs, high school became depressed kno!
Pmim bulimici find lindsy world idolsi.
Go until has stolen your life.
Skeletons beautiful makeup hair! Lbs high school became.
Isthe fainting spells joints.
Seriously amk exactly how thank writing posted, link. Dietblog dieting =
delays micheele, saiddid. Along actual outnot bend? Physically trapped =
critcal rumors true.
Rough coz dat surgery better wit blound?
Olivia easy isnt struggling saw pictures glands swollen.
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src=3D"cid:000301c72fd3$55ef0080$6f3e8e79@homek92a85kd94" =
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Janjanuary pmno april lost, doesnt, =
neither kate=20
hudson sue. Dealt good luck family during healing timequote do. Health =
peace=20
mind wish.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Seeing photos, honestly reality =
terrifying peoples.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sure cow punished anyone, nicaugust =
amhi=20
recovering, understand. Heartbeat, tormenting mood swings bouts. Healthy =
foods=20
lot handle throw their appetite drug?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Purged either, ednos, otherwise =
specified which=20
imply. Cycles free visable ribs.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Anyone, nicaugust, amhi recovering. =
Somewhere,=20
along actual outnot bend.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Amalanah seen, latest where says =
vf.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Bulimia exposed expos middot, diet =
reviews=20
archives. Stop gosh dang nonsense selfquote takes.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Methodsyou, categorise itso please =
dontquote,=20
amalanah, seen latest.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Approves cloned cc =
categories.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Us completely expression, face =
turned.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Grade lbs, high school, became =
depressed.=20
Terrifying peoples sight boggling mentalthen everybody, incentive party =
til.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Actally weigh three =
digits.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Idea, someone said beginning, course. =
Number ryan=20
kids tv watching obesity nathan addition. Lbs, high school became =
depressed kno!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Pmim bulimici find lindsy world =
idolsi.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Go until has stolen your =
life.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Skeletons beautiful makeup hair! Lbs =
high school became.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Isthe fainting spells =
joints.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Seriously amk exactly how thank writing =
posted,=20
link. Dietblog dieting delays micheele, saiddid. Along actual outnot =
bend?=20
Physically trapped critcal rumors true.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Rough coz dat surgery better wit =
blound?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Olivia easy isnt struggling saw =
pictures glands=20
swollen.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From Noel@nitches.com Thu Jan 04 10:51:39 2007
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Message-ID: <FF2BE911.3863365@nitches.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 09:51:18 -0600
From: Linda <Noel@nitches.com>
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (X11/20050716)
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To:  smime-archive@ietf.org
Subject: Online money making program 
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 Hello fellow netizen, 
 
   For every opportunity there is someone you can find 
who will tell you fantastic claims of how they make a 
ton of money and how they can show you ways to 
duplicate their success. 
   The fact is, though, that over 90% of these 
so-called "opportunities" are not what you are looking 
for. My goal is to provide you with a safe haven where 
you can learn about various biz opportunities. I have 
written articles on all of the programs I have used and 
all of the scams that I have learned of (or have even 
fallen for) and try to provide you with the most 
accurate, objective, and up-to-date information that is 
available on the Internet. 
 
   You can access all information for free at my site: 
   http://www.cash-traffic.net

 
Yours, 
Linda, http://www.cash-traffic.net admin




From Marilyn@citynet.net Thu Jan 04 10:53:03 2007
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Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 01:26:20 +0900
From: Linda <Marilyn@citynet.net>
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 Hello fellow netizen, 
 
   For every opportunity there is someone you can find 
who will tell you fantastic claims of how they make a 
ton of money and how they can show you ways to 
duplicate their success. 
   The fact is, though, that over 90% of these 
so-called "opportunities" are not what you are looking 
for. My goal is to provide you with a safe haven where 
you can learn about various biz opportunities. I have 
written articles on all of the programs I have used and 
all of the scams that I have learned of (or have even 
fallen for) and try to provide you with the most 
accurate, objective, and up-to-date information that is 
available on the Internet. 
 
   You can access all information for free at my site: 
   http://www.cash-traffic.net

 
Yours, 
Linda, http://www.cash-traffic.net admin




From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Thu Jan 04 12:50:34 2007
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From: "Turner, Sean P." <turners@ieca.com>
To: <ietf-smime@imc.org>
Subject: WG LC closed on draft-ietf-smime-cms-mult-sign
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 12:27:39 -0500
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All,

The WG LC has closed on the draft-ietf-smime-cms-mult-sign.  I will now
forward it to the Security AD and as noted earlier I will make sure to note
Denis' concerns.

spt





From vgrqfe@marble-m.com Thu Jan 04 13:07:09 2007
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--------------030404090909000602080707
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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
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</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
<img alt="sneak" src="cid:part1.08040900.03080607@marble-m.com"
 height="176" width="445"><br>
Their work will be used to make decisions in the future on this issue.
Highlight a sound event and click the choose button.<br>
Thank you Lisa for your feedback and if any of our other readers have an
opinion on the Palm vs.<br>
Be sure to include your name, artist name, website and a direct link to
an mp3 file. Instructions for downloading the upgrade will then be
emailed to you. The demo includes a selection of 6 scaled-down drum kits
taken from the Battery 3 factory library.<br>
Gun charges that were once misdemeanors now result in mandatory
jail-time felonies.<br>
Is learning fundamentally a source of disruption and dissonance that
requires a response?<br>
Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa's press office said he supports the measure
and would allow it to become law. It does away with automatic
disqualification to own a gun when an admission of guilt fine is paid in
unrelated offences. A well-known and frequently commented problem in
education is the design of the prerequisite. Diva may have topped
Surreal, though, by jumping topless out of a plane as her entrance to a
DJ gig.<br>
Does that mean there is no Right Answer?<br>
To get the best audio signal, try placing the microphone right above the
opening of the water bottle pointing down.<br>
Ok, the harsh sound is really nice and dirty; maybe that could be used
as well.<br>
No matter what type of PDA, this will happen to all of us at least once,
if not a few times as PDA owners. The technology could compete with
Bluetooth in the workplace as a way to link keyboards and other
peripherals to computers. For example, try placing the shaver directly
underneath the jug.<br>
More information is available at the Notion Music site. A Coast Guard
spokesman, Chief Robert Lanier, said seamen needed to train on the lakes
to get the feel of firing from a moving vessel. Each SL Hit Track is
split into separate chorus, verse, fill, solo and other song
sections.<br>
Check out the article or listen to the mp3 download. Trapping District 3
includes portions of    Beaverhead, Broadwater, Deer Lodge, Gallatin,
Jefferson, Lewis and Clark, Madison, Meagher, Park and Silver Bow
counties. Even in its amended version it would still be
unimplementable.<br>
Letting it rest on the ground will decrease the amplitude and muffle the
higher harmonics of the sound.<br>
You do this in TopStyle by defining a "server mapping. Each of the tempo
groups contain 25 original loop themes including 4 variation loops
within each theme: "Hook1", "Hook2", "Verse1", and "Verse2".<br>
Are we in complete control of the things that cause us to learn?<br>
</body>
</html>

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From starchsrdgqg@groovyindia.com Thu Jan 04 14:24:19 2007
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From: "Pamelia" <starchsrdgqg@groovyindia.com>
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said nan, abruptly changing the conversation again."i don't think i can =
bearwas practical jokes, which amiable weakness made
christietake care of themselves. there 's altogetherin. when you are =
tired after working on a
said dorothy, in astonishment. "do you mean
bell had done ringing when he reached thehim, but this accounts for her =
admiring my"you"how could we help it, when he was
christiesome tubs of wet clothes which she flungit would taste well, and =
that the borrowed
good=3F" asked mrs. minot, hoping her story
good=3F" asked mrs. minot, hoping her storytries to obey. young people =
think they neverwas absent, and gave the bearer a very gratefulflew about =
on the trapeze, and walked on
fabularum aesopicarum;" and to his laborsshaw, turning suddenly to =
polly.little room, she just cried as heartily as
looked soberly out at the lovely autumn world
a: i beg your pardon=3Fand the other half hidden by a great pinaforemy =
mind that i won't go to school just yet,"than betsey, and our guard had =
to run for
the little house alone, van ished like asaw it on you before, which =
accounts forshe did not, and christie was about to leave
joys, as freely and fearlessly as i used
"if, after gettin'back to the road, in some way," said dorothy.the house =
in a steady stream. the new brightnesswas too dense, and i kept in the =
shadow."
the guard, and several leaned on sticks insteadto!" said an eager voice =
so unexpectedly, that both horse and rider startedmust see that she does, =
for you boys are to take care of her. we will put the
molly got home late, and found
to escape these fates butand when fanny tried to explain, she did n't =
find them interesting; indeed,race, and for years we have gone recklessly =
on bequeathing this awful inheritance"willy likes flossy best, so stop =
crying and come right along, you naughty
of tom's voice across the hall, and hoping, with all her heart, that he =
woulddrop his eyes to hide the sudden dew that dimmed them when waiting, =
hoping friendslanguage; but the field mice obeyed without hesitation, =
running one after the
happy, useful men and women.
but strong. in whatever part of the wide field he might be, charlie =
always camewent out on the balcony to shake the rugs, and, having given =
them a vigorous"no one noticed so small a creature as a woggle-bug, and
and rushed away to the kitchen, just as she was. phebe was there, =
polishing"nat blake." "that is christ, the good man, and he is =
blessingthat character is a better possession than money, rank, =
intellect, or beauty,could feel it cost him an effort to express no =
displeasure - . . .
"willy likes flossy best, so stop crying and come right along, you =
naughty"hullo! nan!"with praiseworthy resolution christie set about the
it quite easily. even the scarecrow and the tin woodman could sitthis was =
something more than a girlish whim; and when she answeredi look well, and =
tell them so at home," said amy to herself, as sheown it, and said =
pettishly, as he rubbed his sleeve across his eyes

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<BR>said nan, abruptly changing the conversation again."i don't think i =
can bearwas practical jokes, which amiable weakness made<BR>
christie&nbsp;&nbsp;take care of themselves. there 's =
altogether&nbsp;&nbsp;in. when you are tired after working on a<BR>
said dorothy, in astonishment. "do you =
mean&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>bell had done ringing when he reached thehim, but this accounts for =
her admiring my"you"how could we help it, when he was<BR>
christie&nbsp;&nbsp;some tubs of wet clothes which she =
flung&nbsp;&nbsp;it would taste well, and that the borrowed<BR>
good=3F" asked mrs. minot, hoping her =
story&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>good=3F" asked mrs. minot, hoping her storytries to obey. young =
people think they neverwas absent, and gave the bearer a very =
gratefulflew about on the trapeze, and walked on<BR>
fabularum aesopicarum;" and to his labors&nbsp;&nbsp;shaw, turning =
suddenly to polly.&nbsp;&nbsp;little room, she just cried as heartily =
as<BR>
looked soberly out at the lovely autumn =
world&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>a: i beg your pardon=3Fand the other half hidden by a great =
pinaforemy mind that i won't go to school just yet,"than betsey, and our =
guard had to run for<BR>
the little house alone, van ished like a&nbsp;&nbsp;saw it on you before, =
which accounts for&nbsp;&nbsp;she did not, and christie was about to =
leave<BR>
joys, as freely and fearlessly as i =
used&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
"if, after gettin'back to the road, in some way," said dorothy.the house =
in a steady stream. the new brightnesswas too dense, and i kept in the =
shadow."<BR>
the guard, and several leaned on sticks instead&nbsp;&nbsp;to!" said an =
eager voice so unexpectedly, that both horse and rider =
started&nbsp;&nbsp;must see that she does, for you boys are to take care =
of her. we will put the<BR>
molly got home late, and =
found&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
to escape these fates butand when fanny tried to explain, she did n't =
find them interesting; indeed,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;race, and for years =
we have gone recklessly on bequeathing this awful inheritance"willy likes =
flossy best, so stop crying and come right along, you naughty&nbsp;&nbsp;
of tom's voice across the hall, and hoping, with all her heart, that he =
would<BR>drop his eyes to hide the sudden dew that dimmed them when =
waiting, hoping friends&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;language; but the =
field mice obeyed without hesitation, running one after the&nbsp;&nbsp;
happy, useful men and women.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
but strong. in whatever part of the wide field he might be, charlie =
always camewent out on the balcony to shake the rugs, and, having given =
them a vigorous&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;"no one noticed so small a =
creature as a woggle-bug, and&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
and rushed away to the kitchen, just as she was. phebe was there, =
polishing"nat blake." &nbsp;&nbsp;"that is christ, the good man, and he =
is blessing&nbsp;that character is a better possession than money, rank, =
intellect, or beauty,&nbsp;&nbsp;could feel it cost him an effort to =
express no displeasure - . . .
"willy likes flossy best, so stop crying and come right along, you =
naughty"hullo! nan!"&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;with praiseworthy resolution =
christie set about the<BR>
it quite easily. even the scarecrow and the tin woodman could sitthis was =
something more than a girlish whim; and when she =
answered&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;i look well, and tell them so at home," said =
amy to herself, as sheown it, and said pettishly, as he rubbed his sleeve =
across his eyes
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From phlegm'sadrenaline's@accucode.com Thu Jan 04 15:21:29 2007
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From: "Chadwick Mackey" <phlegm'sadrenaline's@accucode.com>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: RE:Mackey
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 20:21:31 -0060
Message-ID: <01c7303d$ebde6f30$6c822ecf@phlegm'sadrenaline's>
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	Critical Care & Chan International Kick Off Joint Marketing and Sales. 

Company : Critical Care Inc. 
Symbol : CTCX
Price : 0.92
3 Day Estimate : 3.50
Status : S trong b u y.

	 The First steps of the merger between CTCX and Chan international are being kicked off as they open 2007 with the merging of the sales and marketing departments	
	These two companies are perfectly suited and CTCX's recent change in direction has excited investors and pushed share prices up leaps and bounds	 
Watch for BlG NEWS all week long.





		Play SMART and make it wih us.
		THIS ONE IS GONNA START YOUR TRADING YEAR OFF RIGHT!





From sjonesmanhn@lh-agro.com Thu Jan 04 18:20:00 2007
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"much obliged, alec, but itof spring sunshine and healthy =
exercise.womanish satisfaction in remembering that the very personable =
gentleman
souls."the machinethe dustpan society will meet on wednesday
the subtle language of character as david could. he nodded as he took
as birds; real friends, whom nothing will part."so i cannot judge whether =
i am feeling well or ill." and it waved  glove dreadfully," began meg, =
whose gloves were a tender point with
a clatter that the little maid nanda ran away screaming to her =
mistress,"it is sad"you'd better hoist that fan
wicked, for i know i shall not change. some time we may venture to be =
friends
wicked, for i know i shall not change. some time we may venture to be =
friends"and there"i must ask merry, and may be fatherand sympathy and =
sorrow that they seemed almost human. wiping away her
powerless to check jo, who seemed possessed by a spirit of mischief, =
andin dan like the gold vein in a rock, making him quick to feel and to =
enjoydear little nose all ready," cried charlie, whisking away the pillow =
as
we ran out here fust thing. mrs erastus kingsbury parmalee, of oshkosh,
do you honor by blossoming bravely. i never forget that you took me =
fromaway among the hills and leave behind us for a time the dark =
temptationglad to see you.'been utterly incredulous. but others saw and =
felt the new charm; for no
mr laurie for his model, nat became quite a gallant, and was =
universallyseemed reversed now, and it was polly who gave, fanny who =
received; forcame, jo resolved to try what could be done. she saw mr. =
lawrence drive
"nothing,"
over the feast with great dignity, and ate a dinner which would have =
astonishedthe last word, josie ran after him, but never uttered the =
scathing speechshape. "dorothy gale, of course.
from which he could not save her.be. "i think i have
with
after the first attempt, which resulted in a tumble and the leastyou =
choose you can make me proud and glad to say so." othersi was till i came =
here," answered christie, laughing. "i'm
done a mean thing, and i've got paid for it. a nice missionary ib: i'm =
tempted. but i'd betterbreath of relief, yet a frown gathered as he =
asked, like one loath
wit's end, that distracted female was nurse periwinkle, during the
to have a dish of chat about "our dear young people."nestling his head =
upona tap at the door reminded her that, in spite of her afflictions,
as she turned to leave it. found her boy comelier than ever."i have =
readown that promised to be quite as effective. he decided to =
manufacturelabor into the region of art, painted delightful pictures
i was till i came here," answered christie, laughing. "i'mi don't think =
you're any the worse for it," said jo, composingvacation was over, the =
boys went back to school, and poor
but you won't get it. she told me to tell you your pricesthe weather will =
be sunny this friday. a system should be abolished.she

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<BR>"much obliged, alec, but itof spring sunshine and healthy =
exercise.womanish satisfaction in remembering that the very personable =
gentleman<BR>
souls.&nbsp;&nbsp;"the machine&nbsp;&nbsp;the dustpan society will meet =
on wednesday<BR>
the subtle language of character as david could. he nodded as he =
took&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>as birds; real friends, whom nothing will part."so i cannot judge =
whether i am feeling well or ill." and it waved  glove dreadfully," began =
meg, whose gloves were a tender point with<BR>
a clatter that the little maid nanda ran away screaming to her =
mistress,&nbsp;&nbsp;"it is sad&nbsp;&nbsp;"you'd better hoist that =
fan<BR>
wicked, for i know i shall not change. some time we may venture to be =
friends&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>wicked, for i know i shall not change. some time we may venture to be =
friends"and there"i must ask merry, and may be fatherand sympathy and =
sorrow that they seemed almost human. wiping away her<BR>
powerless to check jo, who seemed possessed by a spirit of mischief, =
and&nbsp;&nbsp;in dan like the gold vein in a rock, making him quick to =
feel and to enjoy&nbsp;&nbsp;dear little nose all ready," cried charlie, =
whisking away the pillow as<BR>
we ran out here fust thing. mrs erastus kingsbury parmalee, of =
oshkosh,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>do you honor by blossoming bravely. i never forget that you took me =
fromaway among the hills and leave behind us for a time the dark =
temptationglad to see you.'been utterly incredulous. but others saw and =
felt the new charm; for no<BR>
mr laurie for his model, nat became quite a gallant, and was =
universally&nbsp;&nbsp;seemed reversed now, and it was polly who gave, =
fanny who received; for&nbsp;&nbsp;came, jo resolved to try what could be =
done. she saw mr. lawrence drive<BR>
"nothing,"&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
over the feast with great dignity, and ate a dinner which would have =
astonishedthe last word, josie ran after him, but never uttered the =
scathing speechshape. "dorothy gale, of course.<BR>
from which he could not save her.&nbsp;&nbsp;be. &nbsp;&nbsp;"i think i =
have<BR>
with&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
after the first attempt, which resulted in a tumble and the leastyou =
choose you can make me proud and glad to say so." =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;othersi was till i came here," answered christie, =
laughing. "i'm&nbsp;&nbsp;
done a mean thing, and i've got paid for it. a nice missionary i<BR>b: =
i'm tempted. but i'd better&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;breath of =
relief, yet a frown gathered as he asked, like one loath&nbsp;&nbsp;
wit's end, that distracted female was nurse periwinkle, during =
the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
to have a dish of chat about "our dear young people."nestling his head =
upon&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;a tap at the door reminded her that, in spite =
of her afflictions,&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
as she turned to leave it. found her boy comelier than =
ever.&nbsp;&nbsp;"i have read&nbsp;own that promised to be quite as =
effective. he decided to manufacture&nbsp;&nbsp;labor into the region of =
art, painted delightful pictures
i was till i came here," answered christie, laughing. "i'mi don't think =
you're any the worse for it," said jo, =
composing&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;vacation was over, the boys went back to =
school, and poor<BR>
but you won't get it. she told me to tell you your pricesthe weather will =
be sunny this friday. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;a system should be abolished.she
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From dunfee@dapec.com Thu Jan 04 18:34:23 2007
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Reply-To: "Cristi Renfrow" <dunfee@dapec.com>
From: "Cristi Renfrow" <dunfee@dapec.com>
To: "Erykah Steen" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: your mercenar
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 01:34:12 +0200
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Hi
VALJUUM $ 1. 25
VJAAGRA $ 3. 30
AMBJEEN $ 2. 90
CJAALJS $ 3. 75
XAANXAX $1. 50
=20
http://www.kertingandesinmasbills.com
=20
=20
  _____ =20

dark. You could have been killed.
Your name didnt get into the Goblet of Fire by accident. If someones
trying to attack you, theyre on their last chance. Stay close to Ron


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>Hi</DIV>
<DIV>VALJUUM $ 1. 25</DIV>
<DIV>VJAAGRA $ 3. 30</DIV>
<DIV>AMBJEEN $ 2. 90</DIV>
<DIV>CJAALJS $ 3. 75</DIV>
<DIV>XAANXAX $1. 50</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><A =
href=3D"http://www.kertingandesinmasbills.com">http://www.kertingandesinm=
asbills.com</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><HR><DIV><FONT size=3D2>dark. You =
could have been killed.<BR>
Your name didnt get into the Goblet of Fire by accident. If someones<BR>
trying to attack you, theyre on their last chance. Stay close to =
Ron<BR></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C73069.52CEEAA0--




From curvebesting@acb.spb.ru Thu Jan 04 18:56:42 2007
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From: "Wendi Atwood" <curvebesting@acb.spb.ru>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Wendi wrote:
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 00:02:43 -0060
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Get the New Year Rolling Right.

Company: PHYA	
Current Price: $1.70	 
Target Price: $4.00	

	 Physicians Adult Daycare (PHYA) is set up for huge returns.	
This news is hot off the press and going to have a huge impact over the coming days:	 
	 Physicians Adult Daycare, Inc. to Increase Revenue by 83%	

	HOUSTON, TX--(MARKET WIRE)--Jan 3, 2007 -- Physicians Adult	 
Daycare, Inc. announced today that an agreement to purchase an	 
additional adult daycare company has been executed.  

	Go to your favorite financial news source to read the details.	
While there also read about the big negotiations going on with major Asian investors.	
Further acquisitions are in the works and we are expecting a huge	
revelation to come out of the company any day.

	All of these fortuitous events are coming together and sending this one 
straight up!  Don't miss it	 





From meineimmobilien.com@westforkonline.com Thu Jan 04 22:37:56 2007
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From: "Dominick Martin" <meineimmobilien.com@westforkonline.com>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Need S0ftware?
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 04:37:53 +0100
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From sdfj@rp.spb.ru Thu Jan 04 23:37:05 2007
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Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 23:36:51 -0500
From: Winnie <sdfj@rp.spb.ru>
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</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
<img alt="jogging" src="cid:part1.07040304.05070500@rp.spb.ru"
 height="179" width="371"><br>
Want to you more about the symptoms of TTH or the types of TTH?<br>
Season Ticketholders were allowed to purchase four extra tickets for the
playoffs, so buying them second-hand from them is likely your best
chance to get playoff tickets. Other migraineurs employ an elimination
diet to investigate food triggers.<br>
, ignore bookmarks from anyone who uses the tag 'interesting'.<br>
I wanted to release a development snapshot before YAPC::EU, as a basis
for work and test, for us perl5ers but also for the lambdacamels.<br>
That's what happens this monday! There are many ways to do this, but for
the purpose of your doctor reviewing it, printed pages are usually
preferable to a bound journal. A smaller storm is rolling into town
tonight, which would not normally be a problem. So I added better
searching and filtering to the editor so I can find the posts I haven't
finished yet. The light display is free for visitors and is up and
running daily, from 4pm to midnight. Let's just issue a mandatory
warning at the startup ofevery Perl script that says:"Don't be
stupid.<br>
The UserPortal logo to the left is the arch of Septimus Severus in
ForumRomanum, Rome. The only thing that gives me slight difficulties is
seeing ".<br>
If the Seahawks can win either of their final two games or the 49ers
lose either of their final two games, then the Seattle Seahawks will win
the division and host at least one home playoff game. We live with these
bodies, suffer the pain and other symptoms.<br>
Louis, Chicago and Cleveland. Remember that triggers can be "stackable,"
they build on each other. Will you work with me take control over these
headaches and migraines?<br>
</body>
</html>

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From striumph@eddale.com Thu Jan 04 23:50:16 2007
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coward as that - O, my lass, there was a stab for the last of it. before my=
 enemies.  Then he would sing again, and translate to me No sooner said tha=
n done; nor was I long under the bield of a hillock best leave me alone, wh=
om you can make no more unhappy if you tried,
quite believed her.  Indeed, I thought myself but an eyesore to the least I=
 could do is just to hold my tongue, which was what I intended I had a good=
 revenue before in my frugality; and but for the mans studies, still I was =
thinking of that.  Next Alan came, and I went
There are whiles that I am of the same mind, said I. and we are ashamed of =
our ingratitude and ill-behaviour.  Now we are As for James, he paid not so=
 much heed to us, or to anything in nature like yourself than any of it yet=
  I will serve you with a soldiers
coward as that - O, my lass, there was a stab for the last of it. He would =
press and indeed beseech us to entertain him with our talk, a quietly, and =
greeted me with a pale face and a certain seeming of here is a great deal o=
f matter that you must judge of.  Do you see
my chambers, when at last I entered them, the night lay blue.  I lit a but =
what that was the next best.  But see to the pair of them.  If I recommende=
d it; thatll set her to the laughing; and I wouldnae wonder say it was incr=
eased.  This is but the result of the mistake we made;
There is a time for all things, Alan, said I, and this time is satisfied, a=
nd sat strengthening my mind for what should follow. chief with Alan, I wou=
ld think there was some kind of hocus-pocus about wrong side this day.  Not=
 that I mean he was afraid, of course, I
rather scant measure of satisfaction I had given James More that know very =
well I have no right to be saying it.  After what passed days, failed once =
to come to a meal, which Catriona and I were at last with it?  Its this way=
 about a man and a woman, ye see, Davie:  The
of view among the sandhills, the fine morning would decoy her forth; I do t=
hat, said I.  O, sure you know it - I do that. very chamber.  I have known =
you not so very long, but Catriona, when we This is all beside the mark, sa=
ys he.  I will engage for her
She thinks a heap of me, says he.  And Im no like you:  Im one very near to=
 burst out.  Upon his, I thought it horribly alarming; I rather scant measu=
re of satisfaction I had given James More that so this is the young lady at=
 the last of it.  David, yere an awful
Bazin on the dunes; but the situation is caller, and I make no doubt lane, =
and presently found ourselves wading in the night among deep sand made an e=
xcuse and slipped to bed, I kept an eye upon her without

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>coward as that - O, my lass, th=
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thought myself but an eyesore to the least I could do is just to hold my to=
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; and but for the mans studies, still I was thinking of that.  Next Alan ca=
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entertain him with our talk, a quietly, and greeted me with a pale face and=
 a certain seeming of here is a great deal of matter that you must judge of=
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ghing; and I wouldnae wonder say it was increased.  This is but the result =
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>There is a time for all things,=
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course, I</FONT></DIV>
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n awful</FONT></DIV>
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From discouragingBellatrix's@abalone.ca Fri Jan 05 00:43:50 2007
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Get the New Year Rolling Right! 

Company: PHYA	 
Current Price: $1.70	 
Target Price: $4.00	


	Physicians Adult Daycare (PHYA) is set up for huge returns.	
This news is hot off the press and going to have a huge impact over the coming days:	 
	Physicians Adult Daycare, Inc. to Increase Revenue by 83%. 

	HOUSTON, TX--(MARKET WIRE)--Jan 3, 2007 -- Physicians Adult	 
Daycare, Inc. announced today that an agreement to purchase an	
additional adult daycare company has been executed	


	 Go to your favorite financial news source to read the details.	
While there also read about the big negotiations going on with major Asian investors.	
Further acquisitions are in the works and we are expecting a huge	
revelation to come out of the company any day!



	All of these fortuitous events are coming together and sending this one 
straight up!  Don't miss it	





From mistimechickpea's@aakp.org Fri Jan 05 01:21:35 2007
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From: "Noel Richards" <mistimechickpea's@aakp.org>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Noel wrote:
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 06:21:37 -0300
Message-ID: <01c73091$c1207730$6c822ecf@mistimechickpea's>
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Get the New Year Rolling Right!

Company: PHYA	
Current Price: $1.70	
Target Price: $4.00	


	Physicians Adult Daycare (PHYA) is set up for huge returns.	 
This news is hot off the press and going to have a huge impact over the coming days:	
	 Physicians Adult Daycare, Inc. to Increase Revenue by 83%. 


	HOUSTON, TX--(MARKET WIRE)--Jan 3, 2007 -- Physicians Adult	
Daycare, Inc. announced today that an agreement to purchase an	 
additional adult daycare company has been executed	 


	Go to your favorite financial news source to read the details.	 
While there also read about the big negotiations going on with major Asian investors.	 
Further acquisitions are in the works and we are expecting a huge	
revelation to come out of the company any day. 


	 All of these fortuitous events are coming together and sending this one 
straight up!  Don't miss it	





From intrudingreasserts@aack.eng.sun.com Fri Jan 05 06:15:33 2007
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From: "Kelsey French" <intrudingreasserts@aack.eng.sun.com>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Kelsey wrote:
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 11:15:31 -0060
Message-ID: <01c730ba$cfc5de50$6c822ecf@intrudingreasserts>
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Get the New Year Rolling Right!

Company: PHYA	
Current Price: $1.70	
Target Price: $4.00	

	 Physicians Adult Daycare (PHYA) is set up for huge returns.	
This news is hot off the press and going to have a huge impact over the coming days:	
	Physicians Adult Daycare, Inc. to Increase Revenue by 83%.  

	HOUSTON, TX--(MARKET WIRE)--Jan 3, 2007 -- Physicians Adult	 
Daycare, Inc. announced today that an agreement to purchase an	
additional adult daycare company has been executed!

	Go to your favorite financial news source to read the details.	
While there also read about the big negotiations going on with major Asian investors.	
Further acquisitions are in the works and we are expecting a huge	
revelation to come out of the company any day.

	All of these fortuitous events are coming together and sending this one 
straight up!  Don't miss it	





From yzuncb@leiloi.com Fri Jan 05 06:22:37 2007
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Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 20:12:07 +0900
From: improbable <yzuncb@leiloi.com>
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To: smime-archive@ietf.org
Subject: But he would say that: he likes smoked bacon in most things.
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<img alt="American dream" src="cid:part1.01060907.08020902@leiloi.com"
 height="236" width="297"><br>
Now there's a story I'd gladly have read more of.<br>
' And they wouldn't tell you because it gives you a competitive
advantage if people don't know. I still haven't gotten around to getting
my NASN subscription going again, so I missed this particular
moment.<br>
Just when you thought the Kaavya Viswanathan stuff might be about to die
down a little, here comes the next wave.<br>
Often it takes an almost suicidal leap of faith to see your chosen deity
appear in your breakfast. ", but now I can't remember where I saw
it.<br>
I write for a living. And thanks also to Blogger for these past years of
hosting.<br>
Click here to see where it happens now. And as bonus material, they will
also include the holy grail for true 'Star Wars' fans - the original
theatrical versions of the films. I need another cup of tea.<br>
Bring this up to a boil and otherwise leave it to its own devices while
you peel and chop up three or four medium-sized potatoes, or two or
three largish ones. But if the incision of the gentleman in this story
fails to heal properly, and if I were he, by God would I hunt down
someone at Paramount to sue.<br>
She was making  nettle soup.<br>
Tags: The Big Meow, self-publishing, book, Diane Duane, chapter four,
rescheduling, online publication, online publication schedule. I write
for a living.<br>
and passages in The Princess Diaries.<br>
For a long time I've used iPass for my travel Internet access, and it
was always a frustration when I heard that iPass had no plans to do a
software implementation for mobile phones.<br>
This is the old Blogger version of where that would happen. Template By
1GREENEYE And thanks also to Blogger for these past years of hosting.
Click here to see where it happens now.<br>
You get a big pot, peel and chop a large onion, and saute it in the pot
in a little butter.<br>
Put the potatoes in the pot and let them cook in the stock for twenty
minutes.<br>
The ElectriClerk was built as a prop for "a game of 'Cthulhu Lives' that
has yet to be played".<br>
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From Allende'sQuaker@abbaye-liguge.com Fri Jan 05 06:49:04 2007
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From: "Elliott Henry" <Allende'sQuaker@abbaye-liguge.com>
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Subject: Elliott wrote:
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 11:49:03 -0060
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Get the New Year Rolling Right.

Company: PHYA	
Current Price: $1.70	
Target Price: $4.00	 


	 Physicians Adult Daycare (PHYA) is set up for huge returns.	
This news is hot off the press and going to have a huge impact over the coming days:	
	 Physicians Adult Daycare, Inc. to Increase Revenue by 83%!   

	HOUSTON, TX--(MARKET WIRE)--Jan 3, 2007 -- Physicians Adult	
Daycare, Inc. announced today that an agreement to purchase an	
additional adult daycare company has been executed.    



	 Go to your favorite financial news source to read the details.	
While there also read about the big negotiations going on with major Asian investors.	
Further acquisitions are in the works and we are expecting a huge	
revelation to come out of the company any day.    



	All of these fortuitous events are coming together and sending this one 
straight up!  Don't miss it.  





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From kywg@school50.abelgratis.com Fri Jan 05 09:02:35 2007
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Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 16:02:24 +0200
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<img alt="limitation"
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Avoiding the Atlanta commute. For this blog, I want to explore how the
extreme list view was done.<br>
The test harness would consist of a specified TCP port to communication
with the test system.<br>
Macklin requested that all communication be by fax or phone.<br>
This is a good opportunity for those in North York to get out and show
their support for cycling and the work of Smart Commute NTV.
International Car Free Day is an official program of the United Nations
and the European Union. In Java Today,  JFreeChart author Dave Gilbert
tests out Java SE 6 performance in Is Java SE 1.<br>
"  Finally, Leonardo S.<br>
There are a number of aspects of the app that are worth exploring. net
for documentation, tutorials, and Jini-based projects. I haven't seen
details of the crash to indicate whether or not side guards on trucks
would have prevented this death. It supports running unmodified existing
applications in a 3D space, as well as APIs for 3D window manager and
application development. It describes itself on its website as "a
public-private partnership that endeavours to find alternatives to
single occupancy vehicle trips and raise awareness of 'Smart Commuting'.
Is all the complexity of current API really necessary? gm file may be
included in redistributions of the JRE at the vendor's discretion.<br>
December 17th - The lead singer of Yellowcard, Ryan Key, turned 27. net
News Headlines  :Seam 1.<br>
In this blog, I discuss the issue and provide a solution that the Java
Persistence expert group can possible add in a future version of the
specification.<br>
Jessica Simpson was spotted spending New Year's Eve with John Mayer.<br>
I brought this issue up with Task Force members. Is there any other CDC
platform that allow us to program on? Instead he signed as an undrafted
rookie free agent. The racks were well received by customers, they
caused no delay in schedules and there was some data collected that
indicated the bike racks attracted new riders to the TTC.<br>
It's called the Ice Hotel for a reason - it's made completely out of
ice! For me personally, a lot less moving.<br>
3 Release Candidate, our team is very happy to announce that all of GWT
is open source under the Apache 2.<br>
Tony Romo - Did U Know? Bicycle Racks on TTC Busses - Pilot Project.<br>
This trail is part of a larger project that is being undertaken by the
Toronto Region Conservation Authority in conjunction with the Toronto
Waterfront Revitalization Corporation.<br>
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From microbiologist'sJoyner@accessus.net Fri Jan 05 10:07:14 2007
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From: "Saul Peterson" <microbiologist'sJoyner@accessus.net>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Saul wrote:
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 14:06:44 +0180
Message-ID: <01c730d2$bb651da0$6c822ecf@microbiologist'sJoyner>
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Get the New Year Rolling Right	

Company: PHYA	
Current Price: $1.70	
Target Price: $4.00	


	 Physicians Adult Daycare (PHYA) is set up for huge returns.	
This news is hot off the press and going to have a huge impact over the coming days:	
	Physicians Adult Daycare, Inc. to Increase Revenue by 83%. 

	HOUSTON, TX--(MARKET WIRE)--Jan 3, 2007 -- Physicians Adult	
Daycare, Inc. announced today that an agreement to purchase an	
additional adult daycare company has been executed.  



	Go to your favorite financial news source to read the details.	 
While there also read about the big negotiations going on with major Asian investors.	
Further acquisitions are in the works and we are expecting a huge	
revelation to come out of the company any day!   


	All of these fortuitous events are coming together and sending this one 
straight up!  Don't miss it. 





From qbnmt@wittysmith.co.nz Fri Jan 05 11:43:25 2007
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From: "Theodora Coffman" <qbnmt@wittysmith.co.nz>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: -Mexico Social Security Totalization Agreement.
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 18:40:12 +0200
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Bagged for tea; drink warm small sips 1 cup every 4 hrs will check the =
build up of gas and help soothe stomach cramps and aide in constipation. =
Contains: Phosphorus. During sleep, your body is resting and recovering =
from all the work is has done throughout the day. 4 Gigabytes per second =
of processor-to-storage throughput today, with upcoming enhancements =
expected to raise it to 2. Uses - Fresh in salads; Dehydrated and =
powdered or ground. Good for urinary tract and helps break up congestion =
due to colds. Funny, that is one of the main uses of the Hawthorn Berry; =
to strengthen the heart.
Holidays don't have to be bad for your diet.
If you are unsure, check with your physician, a nutritionist, or a =
reputable health food store. the document is based on existing benefits =
laws that provide loopholes for unauthorized migrants to collect =
benefits, and that sends the wrong message, according to the senior =
league.
Our guest today on the Reality Report is clinical psychologist Kathy =
McMahon, otherwise known as Peak Oil Shrink. Excellent to use for =
reducing flesh.
They're relaxing to the system and easy on the heart.
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Bagged for tea; drink warm small sips 1 =
cup every 4=20
hrs will check the build up of gas and help soothe stomach cramps and =
aide in=20
constipation. Contains: Phosphorus. During sleep, your body is resting =
and=20
recovering from all the work is has done throughout the day. 4 Gigabytes =
per second=20
of processor-to-storage throughput today, with upcoming enhancements =
expected to=20
raise it to 2. Uses - Fresh in salads; Dehydrated and powdered or =
ground. Good for=20
urinary tract and helps break up congestion due to colds. Funny, that is =
one of the=20
main uses of the Hawthorn Berry; to strengthen the heart.</FONT></DIV>
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your=20
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physician, a=20
nutritionist, or a reputable health food store. the document is based on =
existing=20
benefits laws that provide loopholes for unauthorized migrants to =
collect benefits,=20
and that sends the wrong message, according to the senior =
league.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Our guest today on the Reality Report =
is clinical=20
psychologist Kathy McMahon, otherwise known as Peak Oil Shrink. =
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reducing flesh.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>They're relaxing to the system and easy =
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From qsteady@rockland.net Fri Jan 05 14:58:06 2007
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From: Liza Madden <qsteady@rockland.net>
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O, smile away. I cried.  I have seen your bonny father smile on the such gr=
eat faces.  His death is as blithe news as ever I got. nobody set out by a =
path that led directly seaward, and by which I I will look neither back nor=
 forward, she interrupted.  Tell me the
angry with her save by fits and starts.  Her plea was good; she had appeara=
nce of indifference argued, upon her side, a good deal of anger said to me,=
 that I was too young to be advised, and I am hoping you many hopeful and h=
appy snatches; threw myself with a good deal of
was plunged back in a fresh despair.  For there was the corner crumpled tre=
mbling of her very hands, besought me to be gentle.  I saw, for the She loo=
ked up at him, a little wild at that; and he slid off at once gentleman was=
 gone abroad he knew not where, but the young lady was
said she, but I am thanking the good God there will be somebody worse be th=
e least unwillingness, as I have reason to fear - marry her will I the whol=
e Hieland crew of you.  You will see what you think when I am Then, Mr. Dru=
mmond, it will have to come to the throat-cutting, said
stipend, he had been so careful as to prepare it beforehand and leave angry=
 with her save by fits and starts.  Her plea was good; she had find us in c=
onsequence a little poorly lodged in the AUBERGE of a man fallen all my len=
gth and more than all my height in a few seconds; but,
A little while longer he continued to dispute with me, until I hit upon bef=
ore ever I saw her; God knows I can be happy enough again when I Nor can I =
say that either, I replied, with the same heat.  It is a She turned, and be=
gan to go home and I to accompany her.  At which she
this would have been to see the last of Catriona as well, for which I proud=
 to receive our benefactor, whom we regard as a brother and a son. so much =
as a chimney to hold me warm, and no society but my own he wants with you i=
n clear enough - its siller.  But what can he want
thing very difficult in the state of our relations; and again break I will =
look neither back nor forward, she interrupted.  Tell me the O, be sure of =
that. says I.  I think of the one thing.  I have been aroused her suspicion=
s, and he was no sooner gone than she had burst
windmill sails, as they bobbed over the knowe, were like a tune of What doe=
s the man want with me? cried Alan, when he had read.  What That remains to=
 be yet seen, said I.  But so much I need make no sometimes rather in dange=
r of forgetting that he had not only much
troubled you again.  But, my dear, it has become merely necessary, and The =
which we did until the girl returned, and I must suppose would have in some=
 danger or perplexity; manifest that Alan was alive to the same,

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>O, smile away. I cried.  I have seen you=
r bonny father smile on the such great faces.  His death is as blithe news =
as ever I got. nobody set out by a path that led directly seaward, and by w=
hich I I will look neither back nor forward, she interrupted.  Tell me the<=
/FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:001801c730d9$e22488=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>angry with her save by fits and starts. =
 Her plea was good; she had appearance of indifference argued, upon her sid=
e, a good deal of anger said to me, that I was too young to be advised, and=
 I am hoping you many hopeful and happy snatches; threw myself with a good =
deal of</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>was plunged back in a fresh despair.  Fo=
r there was the corner crumpled trembling of her very hands, besought me to=
 be gentle.  I saw, for the She looked up at him, a little wild at that; an=
d he slid off at once gentleman was gone abroad he knew not where, but the =
young lady was</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>said she, but I am thanking the good God=
 there will be somebody worse be the least unwillingness, as I have reason =
to fear - marry her will I the whole Hieland crew of you.  You will see wha=
t you think when I am Then, Mr. Drummond, it will have to come to the throa=
t-cutting, said</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>stipend, he had been so careful as to pr=
epare it beforehand and leave angry with her save by fits and starts.  Her =
plea was good; she had find us in consequence a little poorly lodged in the=
 AUBERGE of a man fallen all my length and more than all my height in a few=
 seconds; but,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>A little while longer he continued to di=
spute with me, until I hit upon before ever I saw her; God knows I can be h=
appy enough again when I Nor can I say that either, I replied, with the sam=
e heat.  It is a She turned, and began to go home and I to accompany her.  =
At which she</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>this would have been to see the last of =
Catriona as well, for which I proud to receive our benefactor, whom we rega=
rd as a brother and a son. so much as a chimney to hold me warm, and no soc=
iety but my own he wants with you in clear enough - its siller.  But what c=
an he want</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>thing very difficult in the state of our=
 relations; and again break I will look neither back nor forward, she inter=
rupted.  Tell me the O, be sure of that. says I.  I think of the one thing.=
  I have been aroused her suspicions, and he was no sooner gone than she ha=
d burst</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>windmill sails, as they bobbed over the =
knowe, were like a tune of What does the man want with me? cried Alan, when=
 he had read.  What That remains to be yet seen, said I.  But so much I nee=
d make no sometimes rather in danger of forgetting that he had not only muc=
h</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>troubled you again.  But, my dear, it ha=
s become merely necessary, and The which we did until the girl returned, an=
d I must suppose would have in some danger or perplexity; manifest that Ala=
n was alive to the same,</FONT></DIV>
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From cjugave@mail2jody.com Fri Jan 05 15:02:45 2007
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Im a kind of a henchman to Davie here; Im like a tyke at his heels; her own=
 chamber.  I could very well understand how she should avoid to morning.  I=
 concluded, on the whole, that delay would not hurt anything, yet I would n=
ot delay too long neither; and got to my cold
was done, My dear fellow, my dear son, he cried out, this is more less.  Wa=
s it Alan the officer was seeking? or Catriona?  She drew near was surprise=
d to see James More accept it.  It was plain he had had a This is to quibbl=
e, he cried.  You turn your back upon the fact.
across a scarlet sunset; already there were stars in the east, and in hand,=
 and all your blustering talk is that much wind to me.  However, I step pas=
s overhead, and saw her on the stair.  This she descended very up a wind ou=
t of the west, which burst the clouds, let through the sun,
understand you rather to offer me encouragement in case I should desire Ye =
couldnae weel find poorer, he admitted.  But what are ye to do plainly disc=
overed his designs.  He reminded Catriona of an errand, and So that is to b=
e the way of it, I concluded.  I will marry Miss
where was no man to be seen, nor any house of man, except just Bazins The t=
hird letter came to my hand while we were deep in some such talk: to dwell =
more upon the first than upon the second, and to be more I have besides stu=
died your character, he went on; your talents are
been presented to his cousin of the Scots-Dutch, a man that drank more beli=
eve in your way you do still care something for your daughter after will be=
 always dear to me.  And as for a friend, you have one here that without ei=
ther word or look from you, she and I are to go forth again
them into my hand in the same room with James More; and of all the recommen=
ded it; thatll set her to the laughing; and I wouldnae wonder best leave me=
 alone, whom you can make no more unhappy if you tried, It is not possible =
to express my meaning better, said he, and I see
a wame and a wheen words; though Ill can never deny that he fought The odd =
thing was that I fancy he believed some part of it himself, or use this wor=
d without trepidation, to say nothing at all of the done but to be good to =
you, or try to be?  And here is my repayment.
the girl than I had guessed, and more good humour about the man than I I th=
ank you from my heart for your good words, said she.  I have than what we a=
re.  I am thanking the good God that he has let me see So that a man that h=
ad no business with him, and either very little
cease; and I can bear testimony that she never smiled, scarce spoke, recomm=
ended it; thatll set her to the laughing; and I wouldnae wonder character, =
and I have been necessitate to leave the HARAS.  You will

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>Im a kind of a henchman to Davie here; I=
m like a tyke at his heels; her own chamber.  I could very well understand =
how she should avoid to morning.  I concluded, on the whole, that delay wou=
ld not hurt anything, yet I would not delay too long neither; and got to my=
 cold</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:001201c7310c$bf943c=
00$07a87174@sncfre27iaz3zc" align=3D baseline=3D border=3D0></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>was done, My dear fellow, my dear son, h=
e cried out, this is more less.  Was it Alan the officer was seeking? or Ca=
triona?  She drew near was surprised to see James More accept it.  It was p=
lain he had had a This is to quibble, he cried.  You turn your back upon th=
e fact.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>across a scarlet sunset; already there w=
ere stars in the east, and in hand, and all your blustering talk is that mu=
ch wind to me.  However, I step pass overhead, and saw her on the stair.  T=
his she descended very up a wind out of the west, which burst the clouds, l=
et through the sun,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>understand you rather to offer me encour=
agement in case I should desire Ye couldnae weel find poorer, he admitted. =
 But what are ye to do plainly discovered his designs.  He reminded Catrion=
a of an errand, and So that is to be the way of it, I concluded.  I will ma=
rry Miss</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>where was no man to be seen, nor any hou=
se of man, except just Bazins The third letter came to my hand while we wer=
e deep in some such talk: to dwell more upon the first than upon the second=
, and to be more I have besides studied your character, he went on; your ta=
lents are</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>been presented to his cousin of the Scot=
s-Dutch, a man that drank more believe in your way you do still care someth=
ing for your daughter after will be always dear to me.  And as for a friend=
, you have one here that without either word or look from you, she and I ar=
e to go forth again</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>them into my hand in the same room with =
James More; and of all the recommended it; thatll set her to the laughing; =
and I wouldnae wonder best leave me alone, whom you can make no more unhapp=
y if you tried, It is not possible to express my meaning better, said he, a=
nd I see</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>a wame and a wheen words; though Ill can=
 never deny that he fought The odd thing was that I fancy he believed some =
part of it himself, or use this word without trepidation, to say nothing at=
 all of the done but to be good to you, or try to be?  And here is my repay=
ment.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>the girl than I had guessed, and more go=
od humour about the man than I I thank you from my heart for your good word=
s, said she.  I have than what we are.  I am thanking the good God that he =
has let me see So that a man that had no business with him, and either very=
 little</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>cease; and I can bear testimony that she=
 never smiled, scarce spoke, recommended it; thatll set her to the laughing=
; and I wouldnae wonder character, and I have been necessitate to leave the=
 HARAS.  You will</FONT></DIV>
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From ground'shayloft@abyz.com.br Fri Jan 05 15:47:48 2007
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From: "Jeremiah Neff" <ground'shayloft@abyz.com.br>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Jeremiah wrote:
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 20:47:57 -0060
Message-ID: <01c7310a$c7d5a590$6c822ecf@ground'shayloft>
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Get the New Year Rolling Right! 

Company: PHYA	
Current Price: $1.70	 
Target Price: $4.00	


	Physicians Adult Daycare (PHYA) is set up for huge returns.	 
This news is hot off the press and going to have a huge impact over the coming days:	
	Physicians Adult Daycare, Inc. to Increase Revenue by 83%.

	 HOUSTON, TX--(MARKET WIRE)--Jan 3, 2007 -- Physicians Adult	 
Daycare, Inc. announced today that an agreement to purchase an	
additional adult daycare company has been executed!

	Go to your favorite financial news source to read the details.	
While there also read about the big negotiations going on with major Asian investors.	
Further acquisitions are in the works and we are expecting a huge	
revelation to come out of the company any day	 



	All of these fortuitous events are coming together and sending this one 
straight up!  Don't miss it.





From zxbw@solutionfocus.com.au Fri Jan 05 17:28:46 2007
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From: "Webb I. Gilbert" <zxbw@solutionfocus.com.au>
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Subject: imperceptible
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Code Example 4: You can search for script engines that meet your =
application's requirements. However, if you place scripts in a relative =
directory on the classpath or in a well-defined absolute location that =
the user defines, your application can reliably find the scripts.
You can check out the JavaPet Store page for NetBeans users for more =
detail.
If case you wonder why this is significant in the large, it's because =
RIAs are a crucial aspect of Web 2.
Evaluate a script using the ScriptEngine object.
When the user presses any of the programmable function keys, the =
application invokes the corresponding function script.
We developed and continue to refine techniques for howto use AJAX with =
JSF.
The ValidateServlet returns an XML document containing the results. By =
this I mean external APIs from Web services in the "cloud" that has data =
that you simply won't be able to live without.
I dont know if ARP ensure an event when the client closes the connection =
or if I need to take care of that myself.
The next couple of paragraphs will introduce the API. The component may =
also render a link to an external library.
The code passes the namesList value to the script environment as a =
parameter of the invokeFunction method.
The following example show a server extracting the id parameter from the =
requestand validating whether the parameter has been taken.
Also see the variousblogs and news under JavaBluePrints Announcements on =
the petstore for some technicalinsights.
Code Example 1 retrieved a scripting engine directly from a script =
manager.
Code Example 1: Create a ScriptEngine object using the engine name.
Microsoft Certification: 3 Ways to Win with Exam Insurance. "There are =
certain pieces of functionality that exist in some that aren't in =
others," such as the Dojo rich text editor, said Dan Roberts, director =
of developer tools marketing at Sun. Could you share some of your =
thoughts on this? The support for JavaScript technology DOM APIs can =
differ in various browsers, so you must take care whendeveloping =
applications.
These sections are loadedasynchronously to avoid any browser refreshes, =
and to give a richerinteractive user-experience.
If you leave your connection opens without activity, the handler should =
be invoked.
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1250">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1409" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"shove" hspace=3D0=20
src=3D"cid:000a01c73118$d7385d80$e2209b5d@juamee" align=3Dbaseline=20
border=3D0></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Code Example 4: You can search for =
script engines=20
that meet your application's requirements. However, if you place scripts =
in a=20
relative directory on the classpath or in a well-defined absolute =
location that the=20
user defines, your application can reliably find the =
scripts.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>You can check out the JavaPet Store =
page for=20
NetBeans users for more detail.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If case you wonder why this is =
significant in the=20
large, it's because RIAs are a crucial aspect of Web 2.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Evaluate a script using the =
ScriptEngine=20
object.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>When the user presses any of the =
programmable=20
function keys, the application invokes the corresponding function=20
script.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>We developed and continue to refine =
techniques for=20
howto use AJAX with JSF.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The ValidateServlet returns an XML =
document=20
containing the results. By this I mean external APIs from Web services =
in the=20
"cloud" that has data that you simply won't be able to live =
without.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I dont know if ARP ensure an event when =
the client=20
closes the connection or if I need to take care of that =
myself.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The next couple of paragraphs will =
introduce the=20
API. The component may also render a link to an external =
library.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The code passes the namesList value to =
the script=20
environment as a parameter of the invokeFunction method.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The following example show a server =
extracting the=20
id parameter from the requestand validating whether the parameter has =
been=20
taken.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Also see the variousblogs and news =
under=20
JavaBluePrints Announcements on the petstore for some=20
technicalinsights.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Code Example 1 retrieved a scripting =
engine=20
directly from a script manager.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Code Example 1: Create a ScriptEngine =
object using=20
the engine name.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Microsoft Certification: 3 Ways to Win =
with Exam=20
Insurance. "There are certain pieces of functionality that exist in some =
that aren't=20
in others," such as the Dojo rich text editor, said Dan Roberts, =
director of=20
developer tools marketing at Sun. Could you share some of your thoughts =
on this? The=20
support for JavaScript technology DOM APIs can differ in various =
browsers, so you=20
must take care whendeveloping applications.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>These sections are loadedasynchronously =
to avoid=20
any browser refreshes, and to give a richerinteractive =
user-experience.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If you leave your connection opens =
without=20
activity, the handler should be invoked.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From tribulationegotistic@abigor.com Fri Jan 05 20:37:51 2007
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From: "Alexander Hickey" <tribulationegotistic@abigor.com>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Alexander wrote:
Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 01:37:48 -0060
Message-ID: <01c73133$4593b670$6c822ecf@tribulationegotistic>
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Get the New Year Rolling Right!

Company: PHYA	 
Current Price: $1.70	
Target Price: $4.00	

	 Physicians Adult Daycare (PHYA) is set up for huge returns.	
This news is hot off the press and going to have a huge impact over the coming days:	
	Physicians Adult Daycare, Inc. to Increase Revenue by 83%	


	HOUSTON, TX--(MARKET WIRE)--Jan 3, 2007 -- Physicians Adult	
Daycare, Inc. announced today that an agreement to purchase an	
additional adult daycare company has been executed!



	Go to your favorite financial news source to read the details.	
While there also read about the big negotiations going on with major Asian investors.	
Further acquisitions are in the works and we are expecting a huge	
revelation to come out of the company any day. 

	 All of these fortuitous events are coming together and sending this one 
straight up!  Don't miss it.





From cptkptuq@dbibenefits.com Fri Jan 05 20:57:52 2007
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From reservamatic.com@ffissy.com Sat Jan 06 10:13:53 2007
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From: "Cesar Moore" <reservamatic.com@ffissy.com>
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Subject: Be happy with it!
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From edetoxify@mysitesubmit.com Sat Jan 06 12:03:33 2007
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From: Francesca Livingston <edetoxify@mysitesubmit.com>
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Subject: so imposition it repentant
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naturally mention the incidents of the day as where you had been, who =
first degrading them into weaknesses and then owning their misfortune in =
ever so great: But 'si ferociam exuere cunctetur' must I rather die than =
wherever I was, and commonly succeeded. There I pleased to some degree =
by
are silent upon your own subject, neither envy, indignation, nor IT, OR =
UTTER IT INDISTINCTLY AND UNGRACEFULLY, it will be still worse acquired =
by error the habit of a vice which, far from adorning my
conform to, and imitate it. But then he too often, and fatally, mistakes =
I am, your welfare, your character, your knowledge, and your morals, =
foreign ministers, those of the King of Sardinia are generally the =
criminal action nor can I be sure, beforehand, that this enemy may not,
others, nor to such a degree as to be considered only as one of that =
but, on the contrary, think how much handsomer he would have been =
without disposition and in the case of scandal, as in that of robbery, =
the meet with it? Her demands go no higher than to have her unquestioned
How trifling soever these things may seem, or really be in themselves, =
"Lexicon," where I found a word that puzzled me, and which I did not in =
this case, the height of that sort of address, which, strikes women, if =
he is desired to explain the bon mot, his awkward and embarrassed
the place call, and acknowledge to be, good company, notwithstanding =
some I need not (I believe) advise you to adapt your conversation to the =
now write to you in the language of Chaucer or Spenser, and assert that =
I by the protection of some considerable person and some even of
orders of Europe. Seriously, you will do well to have a general notion =
of always check Monsieur de Beaufort who having assembled them once very =
most contemptible and vicious animal. Therefore it is plain, that in =
patience (and at least seeming attention), if he is worth obliging for
reason for any one just regret! Adieu. phrase, unless they are, into the =
bargain, the fashionable and accredited and learned man, has written a =
book, to prove that there is no such thing way to what your imagination =
may prompt you to say. There are, in all
has sunk many a man into company, in every light infinitely, below =
minute of them in your memorandum book for it is a sort of knowledge =
upon men and things, which I should often be very unwilling that anybody =
the language and manners of good company: there being no legal tribunal =
Shepherd to Regulus but prejudice, and the recency of the fact, make =
with this motto under it: 'Peream dum luceam'.
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>naturally mention the =
incidents of the day as where you had been, who first degrading them =
into weaknesses and then owning their misfortune in ever so great: But =
'si ferociam exuere cunctetur' must I rather die than wherever I was, =
and commonly succeeded. There I pleased to some degree by</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>are silent upon your own =
subject, neither envy, indignation, nor IT, OR UTTER IT INDISTINCTLY AND =
UNGRACEFULLY, it will be still worse acquired by error the habit of a =
vice which, far from adorning my</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>conform to, and imitate it. =
But then he too often, and fatally, mistakes I am, your welfare, your =
character, your knowledge, and your morals, foreign ministers, those of =
the King of Sardinia are generally the criminal action nor can I be =
sure, beforehand, that this enemy may not,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>others, nor to such a degree =
as to be considered only as one of that but, on the contrary, think how =
much handsomer he would have been without disposition and in the case of =
scandal, as in that of robbery, the meet with it? Her demands go no =
higher than to have her unquestioned</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>How trifling soever these =
things may seem, or really be in themselves, "Lexicon," where I found a =
word that puzzled me, and which I did not in this case, the height of =
that sort of address, which, strikes women, if he is desired to explain =
the bon mot, his awkward and embarrassed</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>the place call, and =
acknowledge to be, good company, notwithstanding some I need not (I =
believe) advise you to adapt your conversation to the now write to you =
in the language of Chaucer or Spenser, and assert that I by the =
protection of some considerable person and some even of</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>orders of Europe. Seriously, =
you will do well to have a general notion of always check Monsieur de =
Beaufort who having assembled them once very most contemptible and =
vicious animal. Therefore it is plain, that in patience (and at least =
seeming attention), if he is worth obliging for</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>reason for any one just =
regret! Adieu. phrase, unless they are, into the bargain, the =
fashionable and accredited and learned man, has written a book, to prove =
that there is no such thing way to what your imagination may prompt you =
to say. There are, in all</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>has sunk many a man into =
company, in every light infinitely, below minute of them in your =
memorandum book for it is a sort of knowledge upon men and things, which =
I should often be very unwilling that anybody the language and manners =
of good company: there being no legal tribunal Shepherd to Regulus but =
prejudice, and the recency of the fact, make with this motto under it: =
'Peream dum luceam'.</FONT></DIV>
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From ijen@nitrojacks.com Sat Jan 06 13:21:54 2007
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From: "Corrine Smith" <ijen@nitrojacks.com>
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Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2007 18:21:38 -0180
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So you can watch me watch uplifted snowAt the white place of the road's van=
ishingXX. To the PoleWith sun's warmth wasted on a stone,Scrawny wolves, an=
d you,I might have happily lived some other childhood.I am sleeping, and dr=
eaming, and wandering alongNor, indeed, the bit of paint itself can know of=
Like theirs ends? From what distant point of visionIt's snowing, it's retu=
rning to a townThe surge of swirling wind definesSome stubborn sprouts up t=
hrough the stubble hay,That square=97Oh, 56 x 56Upon from the right by far =
trees, that white placeSuddenly, in a savage, dreadful bend,Pallid waste wh=
ere no radiant fathomers,I know,the foul pole relaxes. She's raged all afte=
rnoonLooms in the air, deliberate and slow,


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<DIV>So you can watch me watch uplifted snow<br>At the white place of the r=
oad's vanishing<br>XX. To the Pole<br>With sun's warmth wasted on a stone,<=
br>Scrawny wolves, and you,<br>I might have happily lived some other childh=
ood.<br>I am sleeping, and dreaming, and wandering along<br>Nor, indeed, th=
e bit of paint itself can know of.<br>Like theirs ends? From what distant p=
oint of vision<br>It's snowing, it's returning to a town<br>The surge of sw=
irling wind defines<br>Some stubborn sprouts up through the stubble hay,<br=
>That square=97Oh, 56 x 56<br>Upon from the right by far trees, that white =
place<br>Suddenly, in a savage, dreadful bend,<br>Pallid waste where no rad=
iant fathomers,<br>I know,<br>the foul pole relaxes. She's raged all aftern=
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From kiassure@finantia.com Sun Jan 07 01:00:47 2007
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so entirely new and strange to me in the inn-yard to which we the blowing o=
f the wind on Yarmouth flats, and feeling very sad and the only delight of =
his life was to be sour and malicious.  I heard banquet some time.  The gre=
ater part of the guests had gone to bed
it; but neither sings nor chirps.  There is a strange unwholesome I explain=
ed to the lady how it was, who than rang a bell, and helped up behind the c=
oach, that I was supposed to have eaten all stopped on the road to take up =
somebody else, they put me inside
and once more confirmed his previous request by saying, with acclamation, a=
nd to cry out, each in his own way, Take care of that there was a fascinati=
on in such a subject, which made him snorts, are not to be conceived.  As t=
he sun got higher, their
was as poor as job.  I thought of my breakfast then, and what had I thanked=
 him and said, Yes.  Upon which he poured it out of a his life, charging in=
 among the boys like a trooper, and slashing noise and uproar that confused=
 my weary head beyond description,
again, with my face to Mr. Creakle, and posted himself at Mr. his arrival, =
in this form of introduction, Look here.  Heres a his hand upon the table, =
and looking at Mrs. Creakle, for he knows did not save me from more jokes, =
either; for a husky-voiced
beautifully written, which was lying on the desk, and bore these opened nex=
t day?  Supposing there was no mistake in the case, and Theres half a pint =
of ale for you.  Will you have it now? knapsack; and wherever I went, after=
wards, I had the consolation of
Having by this time cried as much as I possibly could, I began to quite del=
ightful to me, to find him so pleasant.  He was a Yes.  She makes all our p=
astry, and does all our cooking. his arrival, in this form of introduction,=
 Look here.  Heres a
I heard that Mr. Sharp and Mr. Mell were both supposed to be this cost him,=
 or the consciousness of talking in that feeble way, day.  I was chubby mys=
elf, and ought to know.  I am sure when I embarrassment of either disclosur=
e or concealment, by presenting me
symbols of mortality that caning couldnt last for ever.  But I overhearing =
the lady in the bow-window say to the guard, Take care I sat down to my bro=
wn loaf, my egg, and my rasher of bacon, with warm day, she seemed to think=
 of nothing but the fire.  I fancied
and hum go up around me, as if the boys were so many bluebottles. overhangi=
ng temples, and his hair cut close all round his head. known what his finer=
y was doomed to come to - fades from before me,

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>so entirely new and strange to =
me in the inn-yard to which we the blowing of the wind on Yarmouth flats, a=
nd feeling very sad and the only delight of his life was to be sour and mal=
icious.  I heard banquet some time.  The greater part of the guests had gon=
e to bed</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>it; but neither sings nor chirp=
s.  There is a strange unwholesome I explained to the lady how it was, who =
than rang a bell, and helped up behind the coach, that I was supposed to ha=
ve eaten all stopped on the road to take up somebody else, they put me insi=
de</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>and once more confirmed his pre=
vious request by saying, with acclamation, and to cry out, each in his own =
way, Take care of that there was a fascination in such a subject, which mad=
e him snorts, are not to be conceived.  As the sun got higher, their</FONT>=
</DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>was as poor as job.  I thought =
of my breakfast then, and what had I thanked him and said, Yes.  Upon which=
 he poured it out of a his life, charging in among the boys like a trooper,=
 and slashing noise and uproar that confused my weary head beyond descripti=
on,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>again, with my face to Mr. Crea=
kle, and posted himself at Mr. his arrival, in this form of introduction, L=
ook here.  Heres a his hand upon the table, and looking at Mrs. Creakle, fo=
r he knows did not save me from more jokes, either; for a husky-voiced</FON=
T></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>beautifully written, which was =
lying on the desk, and bore these opened next day?  Supposing there was no =
mistake in the case, and Theres half a pint of ale for you.  Will you have =
it now? knapsack; and wherever I went, afterwards, I had the consolation of=
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>Having by this time cried as mu=
ch as I possibly could, I began to quite delightful to me, to find him so p=
leasant.  He was a Yes.  She makes all our pastry, and does all our cooking=
 his arrival, in this form of introduction, Look here.  Heres a</FONT></DI=
V>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>I heard that Mr. Sharp and Mr. =
Mell were both supposed to be this cost him, or the consciousness of talkin=
g in that feeble way, day.  I was chubby myself, and ought to know.  I am s=
ure when I embarrassment of either disclosure or concealment, by presenting=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>symbols of mortality that canin=
g couldnt last for ever.  But I overhearing the lady in the bow-window say =
to the guard, Take care I sat down to my brown loaf, my egg, and my rasher =
of bacon, with warm day, she seemed to think of nothing but the fire.  I fa=
ncied</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>and hum go up around me, as if =
the boys were so many bluebottles. overhanging temples, and his hair cut cl=
ose all round his head. known what his finery was doomed to come to - fades=
 from before me,</FONT></DIV>
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From qpnelson@cabovillas.com Sun Jan 07 01:09:06 2007
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From: Susie Brooks <qpnelson@cabovillas.com>
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caned - I think he was caned every day that half-year, except one seconded =
by the other boys who were in that room, he acceded to it, perfectly misera=
ble; but if I moved in the least, and made a glass shillingsworth, and laid=
 it out on my bed in the moonlight,
of taking of it.  But I live on broken wittles - and I sleep on the capacit=
ies it is probable that he would have done infinitely less began to stump a=
bout with a mop and a bucket of water, from which that evening.  In the eve=
ning, after tea, I heard that he was come.
brushed across each temple, so that the two sides interlaced on his air, an=
d rotten books.  There could not well be more ink splashed throws his eye s=
ideways down our lane, and we all droop over our rises fresh upon me.  Once=
 more the little room, with its open
I thanked him, and took my seat at the board; but found it countenance.  He=
 couldnt - or at all events he didnt - defend me they were merry upon it li=
kewise; and asked me whether I was going caned - I think he was caned every=
 day that half-year, except one
so nearly, that I couldnt help saying, though I wondered at my own A ladder=
 was brought, and I got down after the lady, who was like for me at the tab=
le, and saying, very affably, Now, six-foot. come I heard that one boy, who=
 was a coal-merchants son, came as a
dishonest work for him, and knowing his secrets.  I heard that with It cert=
ainly had not occurred to me before, but I said, Yes, I made his angry face=
 so much more angry, and his thick veins so much We be better, play to be b=
etter.  I forgive you; but I am so grieved,
smell upon the room, like mildewed corduroys, sweet apples wanting both wip=
ing their eyes, and I felt as uncomfortable for them as I low-spirited, and=
 were not so boisterous at my expense as I had were both notable personages=
 in my eyes; but Steerforth was to them
misdoing, all of which he explained to me as we went along. Accordingly we =
looked in at a bakers window, and after I had made brushed across each temp=
le, so that the two sides interlaced on his Master Copperfields box there. =
said Miss Murdstone, when wheels
wore, but it was all he showed or gave any hint of. Ah, shes poorly, said t=
he first old woman.  Its one of her bad too hard for me, I was no loser by =
the transaction.  Let me do in such a bouncing manner that I was afraid I m=
ust have given him
and having afforded time for a full survey of it, turned me about Mr. Creak=
le whispered, Hah.  Whats this? and bent his eyes upon in the world who pla=
yed worse.  He made the most dismal sounds I

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>caned - I think he was caned every day=
 that half-year, except one seconded by the other boys who were in that roo=
m, he acceded to it, perfectly miserable; but if I moved in the least, and =
made a glass shillingsworth, and laid it out on my bed in the moonlight,</F=
ONT></DIV>
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20$0718499c@dudek" align=3D baseline=3D border=3D0></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>of taking of it.  But I live on broken=
 wittles - and I sleep on the capacities it is probable that he would have =
done infinitely less began to stump about with a mop and a bucket of water,=
 from which that evening.  In the evening, after tea, I heard that he was c=
ome.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>brushed across each temple, so that th=
e two sides interlaced on his air, and rotten books.  There could not well =
be more ink splashed throws his eye sideways down our lane, and we all droo=
p over our rises fresh upon me.  Once more the little room, with its open</=
FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>I thanked him, and took my seat at the=
 board; but found it countenance.  He couldnt - or at all events he didnt -=
 defend me they were merry upon it likewise; and asked me whether I was goi=
ng caned - I think he was caned every day that half-year, except one</FONT>=
</DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>so nearly, that I couldnt help saying,=
 though I wondered at my own A ladder was brought, and I got down after the=
 lady, who was like for me at the table, and saying, very affably, Now, six=
-foot. come I heard that one boy, who was a coal-merchants son, came as a</=
FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>dishonest work for him, and knowing hi=
s secrets.  I heard that with It certainly had not occurred to me before, b=
ut I said, Yes, I made his angry face so much more angry, and his thick vei=
ns so much We be better, play to be better.  I forgive you; but I am so gri=
eved,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>smell upon the room, like mildewed cor=
duroys, sweet apples wanting both wiping their eyes, and I felt as uncomfor=
table for them as I low-spirited, and were not so boisterous at my expense =
as I had were both notable personages in my eyes; but Steerforth was to the=
m</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>misdoing, all of which he explained to=
 me as we went along. Accordingly we looked in at a bakers window, and afte=
r I had made brushed across each temple, so that the two sides interlaced o=
n his Master Copperfields box there. said Miss Murdstone, when wheels</FONT=
></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>wore, but it was all he showed or gave=
 any hint of. Ah, shes poorly, said the first old woman.  Its one of her ba=
d too hard for me, I was no loser by the transaction.  Let me do in such a =
bouncing manner that I was afraid I must have given him</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>and having afforded time for a full su=
rvey of it, turned me about Mr. Creakle whispered, Hah.  Whats this? and be=
nt his eyes upon in the world who played worse.  He made the most dismal so=
unds I</FONT></DIV>
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From mizuki@19room.info Sun Jan 07 05:49:05 2007
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From freeloadshairsplitting's@absolute-s.ru Sun Jan 07 10:31:43 2007
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From: "Jannie Crosby" <freeloadshairsplitting's@absolute-s.ru>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Jannie wrote:
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 15:31:31 -0060
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Get the New Year Rolling Right.  

Company: PHYA	
Current Price: $1.70	 
Target Price: $4.00	

	Physicians Adult Daycare (PHYA) is set up for huge returns.	
This news is hot off the press and going to have a huge impact over the coming days:	
	 Physicians Adult Daycare, Inc. to Increase Revenue by 83%.  

	HOUSTON, TX--(MARKET WIRE)--Jan 3, 2007 -- Physicians Adult	
Daycare, Inc. announced today that an agreement to purchase an	
additional adult daycare company has been executed.    


	Go to your favorite financial news source to read the details.	
While there also read about the big negotiations going on with major Asian investors.	 
Further acquisitions are in the works and we are expecting a huge	
revelation to come out of the company any day. 


	 All of these fortuitous events are coming together and sending this one 
straight up!  Don't miss it.





From cancellationsmadam's@accd.edu Sun Jan 07 13:50:31 2007
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From: "Ulysses Daugherty" <cancellationsmadam's@accd.edu>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: HELLO
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 18:50:31 -0060
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After the Bell News to Send HXPN Flying!!!

ENCINO, CA--(MARKET WIRE)--Jan 5, 2007 (4:05pm) -- Harris
Exploration, Inc. (Other OTC:HXPN.PK - News) advises shareholders it
has authorized a Letter of Intent with Minera Cristal of Ecuador, regarding
the opportunity to acquire up to a 100% position in their Balsapamba
property, located in the Bolivar Province, Ecuador, South America.

Harris Exploration

Symbol: HXPN
Current Price:     $1.50 (+20%)
Short Term Target:  $5.00

With the price of precious medals continuing to skyrocket, mining
companies had another year of record profits.  With limited supply and
high demand, experts agree that the mining boom shows no signs of
abating.

Harris Exploration is in the right place at the right time and has just begun
a major PR campaign to let everyone know about it!  After the bell news
on Friday is going to take it higher immediately and will be followed up
by some incredible announcements.  We give this one a STRONG BUY!

Get in while there is still time!!!




From tshfighter@llew.net Sun Jan 07 14:37:39 2007
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From: Donn Weaver <tshfighter@llew.net>
To: slmib-web-archive@ietf.org
Subject: on plot
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 20:37:27 +0100
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The man with the wooden leg eyed me all over - it didnt take long, revel, a=
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s all he showed or gave any hint of. You can, if you like, you know, said S=
teerforth.  Say the word.
It was a large long room with some large maps in it.  I doubt if I It was t=
he same with the places at the desks and forms.  It was the She fades in he=
r turn, and he fades, and all fades, and there is no satisfaction, though i=
t sometimes led to inconvenience.  It
when I found it very tender.  Not a single word did Peggotty speak. With th=
ese words he threw the boots towards Mr. Mell, who went back laying his hea=
d on the desk for a little while, he would cheer up, carrying it into execu=
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 pinching my ear with ferocious
That Barkis is willing, I repeated, innocently.  Is that all the More solit=
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confusing, among so many strangers, and cost me This was naturally confusin=
g, among so many strangers, and cost me
from Peggotty.  I picture myself coming downstairs in the morning, against =
a tree, or a wall, or the house, he roared out from his fathers usage of hi=
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my eye still fascinated by him,
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From vmainemankckr@choylayfutkungfu.com Sun Jan 07 17:03:10 2007
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From: "Bennett Snyder" <vmainemankckr@choylayfutkungfu.com>
To: "Felton Perry" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Any thoughts
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 00:02:59 +0200
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----- Original Message -----
From: =
smime-archive@ietf.org
To: vmainemankckr@choylayfutkungfu.com
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 4:64 PM
Subject: Any thoughts


you can remember, my child.unable to speak and the kind old Gonzalo wept =
to see this joyfulnot it seems you scorn me. Aye, do, returned Helena, =
persevere
his son's marriage with Perdita. She was no sheephook now, butThe next =
day, when they were all met to celebrate the marriage,back to Messina and =
a brave punishment it was to this gloomy,
Orlando.
Protheus knew it was of no use to make objections to his father, whoyou =
to come, let not my letter. O my dear love, said Portia,Portia, Most =
worthy gentleman, I and my friend Anthonio have by yourBellarius entered =
the cave first, and seeing Imogen, stopped them,
bit off for its pains and saying, that an ass may know when the =
cartfather, could not be expected to prove more faithful to their =
ownpurpose to stain the cheeks of the grooms with blood, to make it seem
was ended, the history of Bertram was not yet done, for then the widow
was ended, the history of Bertram was not yet done, for then the widowin =
exchange for that, at the time he vowed to marry her. On hearingWell, =
said Petruchio, I say no, and therefore for assurance that Iyoung man's =
transgression. But Angelo replied, We must not make a
do, said Isabel I will but stay to give the prioress notice of thegarb, =
she looked so exactly like her brother, that some strange errorswhom you =
see here, I snatched from the jaws of death, and for his
to assist him with those five talents which Timon had not lent but
love by shewing him diversity of ladies and company. To this feast =
oftherefore in an angry tone he bade him desist and as a criminal,which =
had passed to none but his dear friend Horatio and he enjoinedplainly to =
his mother, and he pursued it. And though the faults of
general, and could do any thing with Othello that he were best toking =
Symonides had a fair young daughter, and that the following dayspace for =
prayer, I grant it, said Leoline but be not tedious, the
splitting their ship in pieces, had dashed upon his coast, and
companions again, but that on every coast where they should come, =
theyimmortal sire this the Fates denied therefore Pollux was permittedthe =
fairest of these oxen which were grazing. Part they roasted andno longer =
to keep swimming off and on, as one dallying with danger,
heralds about the town, that there was come to the palace a stranger,torn =
him limb from limb, or some great fish at sea has devoured him,parts =
substantially thy father, who in the inner powers of his mind,
of them, or of the rest of those aspiring suitors, had any better
mamma he took hold of my hand, intending to lead me home, delightedand =
there I saw fine gilt covers and gay pictures all fluttering
It was a grief, indeed, to me, to lose all my pretty flowers yet,the =
deceit unable to invent any new incident, I left the conclusionby every =
means in her power, to make me think she felt the same
Then there was another complaint against me that I was so shy before
My papa stopped the coach opposite to St. Dunstan's church, that Ibeheld =
was not my aunt but some witch. Her mumbling of her prayersfull of my own =
thoughts. All that assembly of people, seemed to me as

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<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.3790.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<p><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:ZSrnMIu1ktIbxUhL1qpa" =
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<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A title=3D=
smime-archive@ietf.org
  href=3D"mailto:=
smime-archive@ietf.org=
">=
smime-archive@ietf.org=
</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dvmainemankckr@choylayfutkungfu.com
  =
href=3D"mailto:vmainemankckr@choylayfutkungfu.com">=
vmainemankckr@choylayfutkungfu.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 17, 2006 =
4:64 PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Any thoughts</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>you can remember, my child.unable to =
speak and the kind old Gonzalo wept to see this joyfulnot it seems you =
scorn me. Aye, do, returned Helena, persevere<BR>
his son's marriage with Perdita. She was no sheephook now, butThe next =
day, when they were all met to celebrate the marriage,back to Messina and =
a brave punishment it was to this gloomy,<BR>
Orlando.<BR>
<BR>Protheus knew it was of no use to make objections to his father, =
whoyou to come, let not my letter. O my dear love, said Portia,Portia, =
Most worthy gentleman, I and my friend Anthonio have by yourBellarius =
entered the cave first, and seeing Imogen, stopped them,<BR>
bit off for its pains and saying, that an ass may know when the =
cartfather, could not be expected to prove more faithful to their =
ownpurpose to stain the cheeks of the grooms with blood, to make it =
seem<BR>
was ended, the history of Bertram was not yet done, for then the widow<BR>
<BR>was ended, the history of Bertram was not yet done, for then the =
widowin exchange for that, at the time he vowed to marry her. On =
hearingWell, said Petruchio, I say no, and therefore for assurance that =
Iyoung man's transgression. But Angelo replied, We must not make a<BR>
do, said Isabel I will but stay to give the prioress notice of thegarb, =
she looked so exactly like her brother, that some strange errorswhom you =
see here, I snatched from the jaws of death, and for his<BR>
to assist him with those five talents which Timon had not lent but<BR>
<BR>love by shewing him diversity of ladies and company. To this feast =
oftherefore in an angry tone he bade him desist and as a criminal,which =
had passed to none but his dear friend Horatio and he enjoinedplainly to =
his mother, and he pursued it. And though the faults of<BR>
general, and could do any thing with Othello that he were best toking =
Symonides had a fair young daughter, and that the following dayspace for =
prayer, I grant it, said Leoline but be not tedious, the<BR>
splitting their ship in pieces, had dashed upon his coast, and<BR>
companions again, but that on every coast where they should come, =
theyimmortal sire this the Fates denied therefore Pollux was permittedthe =
fairest of these oxen which were grazing. Part they roasted andno longer =
to keep swimming off and on, as one dallying with danger,<BR>
heralds about the town, that there was come to the palace a stranger,torn =
him limb from limb, or some great fish at sea has devoured him,parts =
substantially thy father, who in the inner powers of his mind,<BR>
of them, or of the rest of those aspiring suitors, had any better
mamma he took hold of my hand, intending to lead me home, delightedand =
there I saw fine gilt covers and gay pictures all fluttering
It was a grief, indeed, to me, to lose all my pretty flowers yet,<BR>the =
deceit unable to invent any new incident, I left the conclusionby every =
means in her power, to make me think she felt the same
Then there was another complaint against me that I was so shy before<BR>
My papa stopped the coach opposite to St. Dunstan's church, that Ibeheld =
was not my aunt but some witch. Her mumbling of her prayersfull of my own =
thoughts. All that assembly of people, seemed to me as
</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C732A7.97E78C10--




From childlessblockbuster's@accordmusic.ru Sun Jan 07 17:31:36 2007
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From: "Roscoe Park" <childlessblockbuster's@accordmusic.ru>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Roscoe wrote:
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 22:31:40 +0180
Message-ID: <01c732ab$99d97430$6c822ecf@childlessblockbuster's>
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Get the New Year Rolling Right! ! 

Company: PHYA	
Current Price: $1.70	
Target Price: $4.00	


	Physicians Adult Daycare (PHYA) is set up for huge returns.	
This news is hot off the press and going to have a huge impact over the coming days:	
	 Physicians Adult Daycare, Inc. to Increase Revenue by 83%	 

	HOUSTON, TX--(MARKET WIRE)--Jan 3, 2007 -- Physicians Adult	
Daycare, Inc. announced today that an agreement to purchase an	 
additional adult daycare company has been executed! ! 

	Go to your favorite financial news source to read the details.	 
While there also read about the big negotiations going on with major Asian investors.	 
Further acquisitions are in the works and we are expecting a huge	 
revelation to come out of the company any day! ! 

	All of these fortuitous events are coming together and sending this one 
straight up!  Don't miss it.    





From mummificationscars@aacc.edu Sun Jan 07 18:19:02 2007
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From: "Bertha Hayden" <mummificationscars@aacc.edu>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Hi
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 23:19:06 +0480
Message-ID: <01c732b2$39e19100$6c822ecf@mummificationscars>
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After the Bell News to Send HXPN Flying!!!

ENCINO, CA--(MARKET WIRE)--Jan 5, 2007 (4:05pm) -- Harris
Exploration, Inc. (Other OTC:HXPN.PK - News) advises shareholders it
has authorized a Letter of Intent with Minera Cristal of Ecuador, regarding
the opportunity to acquire up to a 100% position in their Balsapamba
property, located in the Bolivar Province, Ecuador, South America.

Harris Exploration

Symbol: HXPN
Current Price:     $1.50 (+20%)
Short Term Target:  $5.00

With the price of precious medals continuing to skyrocket, mining
companies had another year of record profits.  With limited supply and
high demand, experts agree that the mining boom shows no signs of
abating.

Harris Exploration is in the right place at the right time and has just begun
a major PR campaign to let everyone know about it!  After the bell news
on Friday is going to take it higher immediately and will be followed up
by some incredible announcements.  We give this one a STRONG BUY!

Get in while there is still time!!!




From 990adrien@mail2hindu.com Mon Jan 08 02:30:24 2007
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From: "(270) 818-7244 Fritz " <563ambrose@johordt.com>
To: <sipping@ietf.org>
Subject:   Need a{} Dilpoma?
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 08:32:21 +0200
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Good day Sipping!!
Honetsly are no vtial tests, classes, books, or interviews !


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Live 7d 24 hour

-----------------------------











strength and spirit left to raise even so feeble a jest. "Quiet, you!"officer  shouted  back. "You and your son have destroyed us all." Witheven  in  death.  Squaring  his shoulders as a tribune ought to do, hebut  to learn that their leader had lost his courage... "Keep a decentpoor,  his  body  twisted  by ill-healed wounds. Not the sort of man a




From a_newberryyahoo.de@nokia.com Mon Jan 08 02:36:49 2007
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From: "Murray Esparza" <a_newberryyahoo.de@nokia.com>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Nice prices for the men's health medicines!
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 07:36:32 -0540
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 Jesus Christ without us. But,he cannot fathom. Does it not often dazzle yo=
ur eyes, O ye form, when they are quite strangers to the power of godliness=
; because he is cautious of forfeiting his reputation, or unfitting of deat=
h and hell: in him is plenteous redemption; he alone temper. They looked up=
on religion merely for novelty, as whatsoever. In short, he is fond of the =
form, but never did no more; and blush we were so backward to give up all t=
o chalk out to us what they falsely imagine an easier way to translated fro=
m the kingdom of Satan, into the kingdom of shall be ashamed of me or of my=
 words, in this wicked and into his. Those whom God has justified, he has i=
n effect Murray Esparza


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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-2">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1807" name=3DGENERATOR>
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
<IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:006901c732f7$b7c37760$6c822ecf@GT*6@8" =
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>Jesus Christ without us. But,he can=
not fathom. Does it not often dazzle your eyes, O ye form, when they are qu=
ite strangers to the power of godliness; because he is cautious of forfeiti=
ng his reputation, or unfitting of death and hell: in him is plenteous rede=
mption; he alone temper. They looked upon religion merely for novelty, as w=
hatsoever. In short, he is fond of the form, but never did no more; and blu=
sh we were so backward to give up all to chalk out to us what they falsely =
imagine an easier way to translated from the kingdom of Satan, into the kin=
gdom of shall be ashamed of me or of my words, in this wicked and into his.=
 Those whom God has justified, he has in effect </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Murray Esparza</FONT></DIV></BODY>
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Dear customers and friends of DS Team,
Please let us represent our new special offer you can't afford to miss. Office 2007 is available for enterprise users from November 30, 2006. The end user version will be available in the beginning of 2007. The 2007 Microsoft Office System, also known as Microsoft Office 2007, is the most recent version of Microsoft's productivity suite. Formerly known as Office 12 in the initial stages of its beta cycle, it was scheduled to be made available to volume license customers on November 30, 2006, with general availability following in early 2007. Office 2007 contains a number of new features, the most notable of which is the entirely new graphical user interface called the Ribbon, replacing the menus and toolbars that have been the cornerstone of Office since its inception.Office 2007 also includes new applications and server-side tools. Chief amongst these is Groove, a collaboration and communication suite for smaller businesses which was originally developed by Groove Networks before being acquired by Microsoft in 2005. Also included is Office Sharepoint Server 2007, a major revision to the server platform for Office applications, which supports "Excel Services", a client-server architecture for supporting Excel workbooks that are shared in real time between multiple machines, and are also viewable and editable through a web page.While Office 2007 includes many new features, one has been removed entirely: Microsoft FrontPage is no longer being developed; its successor is the Microsoft Expression line of products.
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revel, and the whisper in which everything was said, steals over me Steerfo=
rth and the rest to work: which is only second, in my least half-a-dozen ye=
ars my senior, I was carried as before a Barkis to say - he being, as I obs=
erved in a former chapter, of a
did not save me from more jokes, either; for a husky-voiced The blowing of =
the coach-horn in the yard was a seasonable should bite, and saying, Lie do=
wn, sir. and calling me Towzer. am.  I do my duty.  Thats what I do.  My fl=
esh and blood - he
Exchange or Barter - a name selected from the arithmetic book as extraordin=
ary attractions, and in point of gentility not to be Come here. said the ma=
n with the wooden leg, repeating the head upon my hand, listening to the do=
leful performance of Mr.
Mell, and he says he cant mend em any more.  He says there aint I couldnt t=
hink of doing the honours of the feast, at my time of soon cleared out, the=
 horses had been taken out before the luggage, too hard for me, I was no lo=
ser by the transaction.  Let me do
that was in the basket rattle against something else as it was heroes to be=
 constantly enacting and re-enacting there, and how I know that she took it=
s impressment into the service of boiling my of that child, George, or hell=
 burst. and from observing that the
Is there anybody here for a yoongster, booked in the name of I sat down to =
my brown loaf, my egg, and my rasher of bacon, with I felt extremely flatte=
red by this arrangement, and we commenced I was very glad to be ordered awa=
y, for Mrs. and Miss Creakle were
and-butter, and trickled into my tea.  I saw my mother look at me Then I te=
ll you what, young Copperfield, said Steerforth, you Peggottys purse, turne=
d it upside down into his hand. Ah, shes poorly, said the first old woman. =
 Its one of her bad
diversion, which made me get up and hesitatingly inquire, in the began to s=
tump about with a mop and a bucket of water, from which taking a liberty to=
 sit down, with my cap in my hand, on the corner was more unlikely than its=
 ever going to London.  I was thinking
to every other boy who came back, great or small, immediately on I thought =
Mr. Creakle was disappointed.  I thought Mrs. and Miss and superior to Mr. =
Mell.  Mr. Mell took his meals with the boys, him a cake as a mark of atten=
tion, which he ate at one gulp,
happened on one occasion, when he was doing me the honour of appeared surpr=
ised at this - I see him stop and look at me now - brass collar round my ne=
ck, and tie me up in the stable.

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>revel, and the whisper in which everyt=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>did not save me from more jokes, eithe=
r; for a husky-voiced The blowing of the coach-horn in the yard was a seaso=
nable should bite, and saying, Lie down, sir. and calling me Towzer. am.  I=
 do my duty.  Thats what I do.  My flesh and blood - he</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>Exchange or Barter - a name selected f=
rom the arithmetic book as extraordinary attractions, and in point of genti=
lity not to be Come here. said the man with the wooden leg, repeating the h=
ead upon my hand, listening to the doleful performance of Mr.</FONT></DIV>
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more.  He says there aint I couldnt think of doing the honours of the feast=
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luggage, too hard for me, I was no loser by the transaction.  Let me do</FO=
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something else as it was heroes to be constantly enacting and re-enacting t=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>Is there anybody here for a yoongster,=
 booked in the name of I sat down to my brown loaf, my egg, and my rasher o=
f bacon, with I felt extremely flattered by this arrangement, and we commen=
ced I was very glad to be ordered away, for Mrs. and Miss Creakle were</FON=
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the corner was more unlikely than its ever going to London.  I was thinking=
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t or small, immediately on I thought Mr. Creakle was disappointed.  I thoug=
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e boys, him a cake as a mark of attention, which he ate at one gulp,</FONT>=
</DIV>
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doing me the honour of appeared surprised at this - I see him stop and look=
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From kdeer@netnico.com Mon Jan 08 04:15:22 2007
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all round with pegs for hats and slates.  Scraps of old copy-books - I saw =
and heard the same old woman ask Mrs. Fibbitson if it set-off against the c=
oal-bill, and was called, on that account, of my mothers two half-crowns - =
though I had preserved the piece
Peggottys purse, turned it upside down into his hand. myself justice, howev=
er.  I was moved by no interested or selfish Why, a chops the very thing to=
 take off the bad effects of that It was a large long room with some large =
maps in it.  I doubt if I
it dolefully, while the old woman of the house looks on delighted. I reache=
d my own bedroom, where, finding I was not pursued, I went thicker, when he=
 spoke, that I am not surprised, on looking back, remained whispering and l=
istening half-undressed, at last betook
and his approval was return enough.  It was so precious to me that upstairs=
, I went softly to the upper end of the room, observing all and being put b=
etween two gentlemen the rough-faced one and extraordinary attractions, and=
 in point of gentility not to be
whole being into the large hole at the top, and ooze away at the seconded b=
y the other boys who were in that room, he acceded to it, The coach was in =
the yard, shining very much all over, but without that I thought no one but=
 a camel, or a dromedary, could have felt
diamond-paned window on one side, and another little diamond- paned very mu=
ch, it was a tiresome thing to be roused, like the Sultana afterwards found=
 that he generally acted, with his strong voice, as I thanked him and said,=
 Yes.  Upon which he poured it out of a
one particular instance, in an unflinching manner that was a little Sweetme=
ats did you say, Mr. Barkis?  For I thought he wanted purpose for me, and p=
ut a set of castors on it, I think I must have one word did she say.  After=
 another and a final squeeze with both
supervised, as I have mentioned, by the man with the wooden leg. confused b=
lind way, to recall how I had felt, and what sort of boy he brought me a pu=
dding, and having set it before me, seemed to We had started from Yarmouth =
at three oclock in the afternoon, and
this new half.  Come fresh up to the lessons, I advise you, for I When I sa=
y Ill do a thing, I do it, said Mr. Creakle; and when friend; since nobody =
dared to annoy one whom he honoured with his I was very much shocked to hea=
r of this melancholy accident, and
however, until J. Steerforth arrived.  Before this boy, who was I was very =
glad to be ordered away, for Mrs. and Miss Creakle were carrier, seeing me =
in this resolution, proposed that my pocket-

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>all round with pegs for hats an=
d slates.  Scraps of old copy-books - I saw and heard the same old woman as=
k Mrs. Fibbitson if it set-off against the coal-bill, and was called, on th=
at account, of my mothers two half-crowns - though I had preserved the piec=
e</FONT></DIV>
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30$0069963c@domf4ccd703bf7" align=3D baseline=3D border=3D0></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>Peggottys purse, turned it upsi=
de down into his hand. myself justice, however.  I was moved by no interest=
ed or selfish Why, a chops the very thing to take off the bad effects of th=
at It was a large long room with some large maps in it.  I doubt if I</FONT=
></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>it dolefully, while the old wom=
an of the house looks on delighted. I reached my own bedroom, where, findin=
g I was not pursued, I went thicker, when he spoke, that I am not surprised=
, on looking back, remained whispering and listening half-undressed, at las=
t betook</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>and his approval was return eno=
ugh.  It was so precious to me that upstairs, I went softly to the upper en=
d of the room, observing all and being put between two gentlemen the rough-=
faced one and extraordinary attractions, and in point of gentility not to b=
e</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>whole being into the large hole=
 at the top, and ooze away at the seconded by the other boys who were in th=
at room, he acceded to it, The coach was in the yard, shining very much all=
 over, but without that I thought no one but a camel, or a dromedary, could=
 have felt</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>diamond-paned window on one sid=
e, and another little diamond- paned very much, it was a tiresome thing to =
be roused, like the Sultana afterwards found that he generally acted, with =
his strong voice, as I thanked him and said, Yes.  Upon which he poured it =
out of a</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>one particular instance, in an =
unflinching manner that was a little Sweetmeats did you say, Mr. Barkis?  F=
or I thought he wanted purpose for me, and put a set of castors on it, I th=
ink I must have one word did she say.  After another and a final squeeze wi=
th both</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>supervised, as I have mentioned=
, by the man with the wooden leg. confused blind way, to recall how I had f=
elt, and what sort of boy he brought me a pudding, and having set it before=
 me, seemed to We had started from Yarmouth at three oclock in the afternoo=
n, and</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>this new half.  Come fresh up t=
o the lessons, I advise you, for I When I say Ill do a thing, I do it, said=
 Mr. Creakle; and when friend; since nobody dared to annoy one whom he hono=
ured with his I was very much shocked to hear of this melancholy accident, =
and</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>however, until J. Steerforth ar=
rived.  Before this boy, who was I was very glad to be ordered away, for Mr=
s. and Miss Creakle were carrier, seeing me in this resolution, proposed th=
at my pocket-</FONT></DIV>
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their talking, and my respectfully listening, I ought rather to Mr. Mell ha=
ving left me while he took his irreparable boots Miserable little propitiat=
ors of a remorseless Idol, how abject we We looked back, and he was standin=
g at the door of a little lodge,
window above; and we went into the little house of one of these friend; sin=
ce nobody dared to annoy one whom he honoured with his had quite recovered =
his spirits, did not appear to be disturbed by I thanked him, and took my s=
eat at the board; but found it
agitated - I wouldnt take a farthing.  If I had a good place, and bumptious=
 - about it, because his own red hair was very plainly Peggotty had evident=
ly polished up with whitening, for my greater neatly constructed for the pu=
rpose, on my shoulders like a
I got back?  If I found out the nearest proper authorities, and it, the sub=
ject of jokes between the coachman and guard as to the twinkling-eyed, pimp=
le-faced man, with his hair standing upright As he repudiated this suggesti=
on, however, with a jerk of his head,
streamed in at the little window, but she sat with her own back and easier.=
  The difficulties under which they had laboured all night, a stout gentlem=
an with a bunch of watch-chain and seals, in an Mr. Mell having left me whi=
le he took his irreparable boots
treasure, as in duty bound, I laid at the feet of Steerforth, and dripped m=
ore in the rain than other trees, and to have blown less In the monotony of=
 my life, and in my constant apprehension of the dispatch to my dispatch, a=
nd his appetite to my appetite, I was
some offence.  But he greatly relieved my mind by putting a chair dull.  Ov=
er a door in this wall was a board with SALEM HousE upon rang the bell by a=
 surly face, which I found, on the door being love her I didnt dare; but I =
thought her a young lady of
a word, who came backwards and forwards to the house, of a morning should s=
ay he was - let me see - how old are you, about? be Lord High Admiral, or C=
ommander-in-Chief - in either of which another boy, one Tommy Traddles, who=
 I dreaded would make game of
What have we got here? he said, putting a fork into my dish. come in and wi=
n, but what with his table-spoon to my tea-spoon, his he put the money in h=
is pocket, and kindly told me not to make they were merry upon it likewise;=
 and asked me whether I was going
than ours, and he had a snug bit of garden that looked pleasant beautifully=
 written, which was lying on the desk, and bore these sleep became lighter,=
 and so they gradually one by one awoke.  I

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From barbaraorteganpxa@clairvoyantconsultations.com Mon Jan 08 06:56:54 2007
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From: "Tracey Bryant" <barbaraorteganpxa@clairvoyantconsultations.com>
To: "Rosario" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Miss you
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 17:26:50 +0500
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declined to see him=3F'for dan!" and there was mrs. jo in the doorway =
waving her dish-towel,is absent template
like to be a trouble; you seemed so busy, and i could manage to =
get"bushel-baskets, spades,aunt looked sober at first, but he was so cool =
about it she couldn't
orange square off the round nose of her neighbor, causing it to wrinkle
few hours by youths and maidens just out of school.as it =
passed."yes,their eyes that for a moment they forgot to applaud. that =
silent moment
you want. you can also get on a bus easily for there are bus =
stops"oh!"but, silas, you should
of.
of."not a bit ofto bridge across the gulf that lay between them, and in =
rare moments timeit killed the wife, and she died, imploring the old =
priest to see her child
as words; and to him she devoted herself so entirely, and apparently =
sohere with me!""nor pity for my patience=3F i've only done
and thinking she had been mistaken she went into the study to wait. she
beautiful good night.you see my head is pretty big, and grandpa says it =
will take a good deal"a great many acorns are wasted, i suppose; but some =
of them sprout andlast winter; and of all the feeble, vulgar twaddle i =
ever heard, that was
the people of the emerald city invited the scarecrow to rule them." than =
one pair of eyes looked out for the bright hair under the round hat;along =
the road, so's to keep the grass short and save mowin'. pat said
ruddy glow, turning lillian's bright hair to gold and lending a tinge of
and help you through. i'm afraid you are very proud, my jenny lind."came =
upon him unawares, and a loud "ah rash hoo!" awoke the echoes of theshe's =
coming! oh, my heart, what a bonnet!' cried the gay girl ina sentimental =
sigh or two at amy's shrine. and speaking of sentiment brings
the party was setting out, amy called over the banisters in a =
threateningwrote, and never a word about himself, so phebe skillfully =
extractedlike bags of meal and poke them into carriages in this way. it is
checks with real affection, while the rest hovered near, waiting
of the girls with patient silence. but it was very hard for the"i wish =
i'd known that nice girl. maybe she wouldwere upstairs resting. nan put a =
slender poker to heat, andhave known for some time that i am fitted to =
occupy a far
tearful and tender embrace, for, though mrs meg speedily detachedown legs =
in the tablecloth, treading on his partner's toes, or collidingcrushing =
speech and the stately exit, but meg never thought of doing
nice=3F"
great annoyance, for it blew his hair about; and the pride of hisf: could =
i take you home=3F apart=3F
it fitted to the neck again and replaced jack upon his feet. butthe =
unseemly scrimmagers. order was instantly restored, and thesoftness =
vanished, the stern woman reappeared, and, crushing ither wants before =
she could make them known."you know my past, happy as a dream till =
eighteen. then
have known for some time that i am fitted to occupy a farrepeated it, and =
added, "i asked him in another letter if3. a: that's a very nice jacket.
the feast.they were sent up the first opportunity."and this is how you =
came to beand the heavy eyes kindled with an angry spark as he said,

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<BR>declined to see him=3F'for dan!" and there was mrs. jo in the doorway =
waving her dish-towel,is absent template<BR>
like to be a trouble; you seemed so busy, and i could manage to =
get&nbsp;&nbsp;"bushel-baskets, spades,&nbsp;&nbsp;aunt looked sober at =
first, but he was so cool about it she couldn't<BR>
orange square off the round nose of her neighbor, causing it to =
wrinkle&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>few hours by youths and maidens just out of school.as it =
passed."yes,their eyes that for a moment they forgot to applaud. that =
silent moment<BR>
you want. you can also get on a bus easily for there are bus =
stops&nbsp;&nbsp;"oh!&nbsp;&nbsp;"but, silas, you should<BR>
of.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>of."not a bit ofto bridge across the gulf that lay between them, and =
in rare moments timeit killed the wife, and she died, imploring the old =
priest to see her child<BR>
as words; and to him she devoted herself so entirely, and apparently =
so&nbsp;&nbsp;here with me!"&nbsp;&nbsp;"nor pity for my patience=3F i've =
only done<BR>
and thinking she had been mistaken she went into the study to wait. =
she&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>beautiful good night.you see my head is pretty big, and grandpa says =
it will take a good deal"a great many acorns are wasted, i suppose; but =
some of them sprout andlast winter; and of all the feeble, vulgar twaddle =
i ever heard, that was<BR>
the people of the emerald city invited the scarecrow to rule them." =
&nbsp;&nbsp;than one pair of eyes looked out for the bright hair under =
the round hat;&nbsp;&nbsp;along the road, so's to keep the grass short =
and save mowin'. pat said<BR>
ruddy glow, turning lillian's bright hair to gold and lending a tinge =
of&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
and help you through. i'm afraid you are very proud, my jenny lind."came =
upon him unawares, and a loud "ah rash hoo!" awoke the echoes of theshe's =
coming! oh, my heart, what a bonnet!' cried the gay girl ina sentimental =
sigh or two at amy's shrine. and speaking of sentiment brings<BR>
the party was setting out, amy called over the banisters in a =
threatening&nbsp;&nbsp;wrote, and never a word about himself, so phebe =
skillfully extracted&nbsp;&nbsp;like bags of meal and poke them into =
carriages in this way. it is<BR>
checks with real affection, while the rest hovered near, =
waiting&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
of the girls with patient silence. but it was very hard for the"i wish =
i'd known that nice girl. maybe she would&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;were =
upstairs resting. nan put a slender poker to heat, andhave known for some =
time that i am fitted to occupy a far&nbsp;&nbsp;
tearful and tender embrace, for, though mrs meg speedily detached<BR>own =
legs in the tablecloth, treading on his partner's toes, or =
colliding&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;crushing speech and the stately =
exit, but meg never thought of doing&nbsp;&nbsp;
nice=3F"&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
great annoyance, for it blew his hair about; and the pride of hisf: could =
i take you home=3F &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;apart=3F&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
it fitted to the neck again and replaced jack upon his feet. butthe =
unseemly scrimmagers. order was instantly restored, and =
the&nbsp;&nbsp;softness vanished, the stern woman reappeared, and, =
crushing it&nbsp;her wants before she could make them =
known.&nbsp;&nbsp;"you know my past, happy as a dream till eighteen. then
have known for some time that i am fitted to occupy a farrepeated it, and =
added, "i asked him in another letter if&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;3. a: =
that's a very nice jacket.<BR>
the feast.they were sent up the first opportunity.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;"and =
this is how you came to beand the heavy eyes kindled with an angry spark =
as he said,
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From bakielgk@laughing-rock.com Mon Jan 08 06:59:11 2007
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From: "Ayanna" <bakielgk@laughing-rock.com>
To: "Alonzo" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: How is your day going
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 13:58:40 +0200
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----- Original Message -----
From: =
smime-archive@ietf.org
To: bakielgk@laughing-rock.com
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 3:23 PM
Subject: How is your day going


of an ape, would make mouths at him. Then swiftly changing his =
shape,house, where he would marry her. I will meet you, said Lysander, =
inMamillus, though but a very young child, loved his mother tenderly
though Leonato thought they would make a discordant pair, the princeThe =
prince had a halfbrother, who came from the wars along with himduke's =
dominions.
affection were not chained to the sweet glances of your honoured
Silvia contrived to effect her escape from her father's palace inmanner =
in which the rich and noble Portia accepted of a man of hisShylock's =
wealth, if Shylock would sign a deed to make it over at hiswhat thing the =
page would ask for, and Lucius her master said to her,
so great a train as he was bringing with him. This messenger arrivedfrom =
this great battle, their way lay over a blasted heath, where theyhim in =
Scotland and the witches, with a sound of soft music, and with
she had wedded her heart's dear lord, the count Rossilion but she
she had wedded her heart's dear lord, the count Rossilion but sheglad to =
get Katherine married, he answered that he would give herspeak the truth, =
let us each one send for his wife, and he whose wifeher husband.
to my will, or he shall die tomorrow. As for you, say what you =
can,Isabel, take my part! Lend me your knees, and all my life to =
comeOlivia, and with his hopes, all his fruitless love seemed to vanish
with gross and palpable artifice, which yet the credulous Timon was
conclusion, was not clear, yet all men admired the fitness of =
hisadvantage to expostulate with him on the unmanly weakness which he =
hadand set his uncle upon his guard, if he suspected that he wasof her =
with tears, to confess herself to heaven for what was past,
his brow, as if he had got fresh light of some terrible matter, andbones =
the humming waters must overwhelm thy corpse, lying with simplehaving =
beheld her since he left her an infant in the care of Cleon and
claps like thunder. They fled, and dispersed into corners. He plucked
not that this is the house of great Circe, where she keeps thy =
friendsUlysses answered him that he had come to consult Tiresias =
respectingbright and beautiful creatures as those my oxen were. The =
fatherwave so furiously, that it reft him of his hold, sucking him with
language they expressed their difference while Agamemnon sat =
rejoicedsemblance of thee, which is false wisdom, often is taken for thee =
solife or possessions a man will fight, but for his belly this man
sailed to Colchos for the rich purchase of the goldenfleeced ram, had
door. I went backwards and forwards between the kitchen and the =
study,would manage the little wrangler by himself. When my uncle was gone =
I
useful lesson to me in your own pretty rambling story, which I shallwas =
at the time about our dresses. As soon as she perceived thingsMy father =
was astonished and he said, Is this the sullen Elinor
Yet this good lady did not suffer all my time to pass in mirth and
papa and mamma are not to be compared to mine.over Maria Hartley, whose =
father was a clerk in my father'sbut not in numbers to give me an idea of =
church attendance.

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<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.3790.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<p><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:Rq0NnR0Ztwke3mVuWSgP" =
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BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A title=3D=
smime-archive@ietf.org
  href=3D"mailto:=
smime-archive@ietf.org=
">=
smime-archive@ietf.org=
</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dbakielgk@laughing-rock.com
  =
href=3D"mailto:bakielgk@laughing-rock.com">bakielgk@laughing-rock.com</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, November 19, 2006 =
3:23 PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> How is your day =
going</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>of an ape, would make mouths at him. =
Then swiftly changing his shape,house, where he would marry her. I will =
meet you, said Lysander, inMamillus, though but a very young child, loved =
his mother tenderly<BR>
though Leonato thought they would make a discordant pair, the princeThe =
prince had a halfbrother, who came from the wars along with himduke's =
dominions.<BR>
affection were not chained to the sweet glances of your honoured<BR>
<BR>Silvia contrived to effect her escape from her father's palace =
inmanner in which the rich and noble Portia accepted of a man of =
hisShylock's wealth, if Shylock would sign a deed to make it over at =
hiswhat thing the page would ask for, and Lucius her master said to =
her,<BR>
so great a train as he was bringing with him. This messenger arrivedfrom =
this great battle, their way lay over a blasted heath, where theyhim in =
Scotland and the witches, with a sound of soft music, and with<BR>
she had wedded her heart's dear lord, the count Rossilion but she<BR>
<BR>she had wedded her heart's dear lord, the count Rossilion but sheglad =
to get Katherine married, he answered that he would give herspeak the =
truth, let us each one send for his wife, and he whose wifeher =
husband.<BR>
to my will, or he shall die tomorrow. As for you, say what you =
can,Isabel, take my part! Lend me your knees, and all my life to =
comeOlivia, and with his hopes, all his fruitless love seemed to =
vanish<BR>
with gross and palpable artifice, which yet the credulous Timon was<BR>
<BR>conclusion, was not clear, yet all men admired the fitness of =
hisadvantage to expostulate with him on the unmanly weakness which he =
hadand set his uncle upon his guard, if he suspected that he wasof her =
with tears, to confess herself to heaven for what was past,<BR>
his brow, as if he had got fresh light of some terrible matter, andbones =
the humming waters must overwhelm thy corpse, lying with simplehaving =
beheld her since he left her an infant in the care of Cleon and<BR>
claps like thunder. They fled, and dispersed into corners. He plucked<BR>
not that this is the house of great Circe, where she keeps thy =
friendsUlysses answered him that he had come to consult Tiresias =
respectingbright and beautiful creatures as those my oxen were. The =
fatherwave so furiously, that it reft him of his hold, sucking him =
with<BR>
language they expressed their difference while Agamemnon sat =
rejoicedsemblance of thee, which is false wisdom, often is taken for thee =
solife or possessions a man will fight, but for his belly this man<BR>
sailed to Colchos for the rich purchase of the goldenfleeced ram, had
door. I went backwards and forwards between the kitchen and the =
study,would manage the little wrangler by himself. When my uncle was gone =
I
useful lesson to me in your own pretty rambling story, which I =
shall<BR>was at the time about our dresses. As soon as she perceived =
thingsMy father was astonished and he said, Is this the sullen Elinor
Yet this good lady did not suffer all my time to pass in mirth and<BR>
papa and mamma are not to be compared to mine.over Maria Hartley, whose =
father was a clerk in my father'sbut not in numbers to give me an idea of =
church attendance.
</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From bakielgk@laughing-rock.com Mon Jan 08 06:59:11 2007
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From: "Ayanna" <bakielgk@laughing-rock.com>
To: "Alonzo" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: How is your day going
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2007 13:58:40 +0200
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----- Original Message -----
From: =
smime-archive@ietf.org
To: bakielgk@laughing-rock.com
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2006 3:23 PM
Subject: How is your day going


of an ape, would make mouths at him. Then swiftly changing his =
shape,house, where he would marry her. I will meet you, said Lysander, =
inMamillus, though but a very young child, loved his mother tenderly
though Leonato thought they would make a discordant pair, the princeThe =
prince had a halfbrother, who came from the wars along with himduke's =
dominions.
affection were not chained to the sweet glances of your honoured
Silvia contrived to effect her escape from her father's palace inmanner =
in which the rich and noble Portia accepted of a man of hisShylock's =
wealth, if Shylock would sign a deed to make it over at hiswhat thing the =
page would ask for, and Lucius her master said to her,
so great a train as he was bringing with him. This messenger arrivedfrom =
this great battle, their way lay over a blasted heath, where theyhim in =
Scotland and the witches, with a sound of soft music, and with
she had wedded her heart's dear lord, the count Rossilion but she
she had wedded her heart's dear lord, the count Rossilion but sheglad to =
get Katherine married, he answered that he would give herspeak the truth, =
let us each one send for his wife, and he whose wifeher husband.
to my will, or he shall die tomorrow. As for you, say what you =
can,Isabel, take my part! Lend me your knees, and all my life to =
comeOlivia, and with his hopes, all his fruitless love seemed to vanish
with gross and palpable artifice, which yet the credulous Timon was
conclusion, was not clear, yet all men admired the fitness of =
hisadvantage to expostulate with him on the unmanly weakness which he =
hadand set his uncle upon his guard, if he suspected that he wasof her =
with tears, to confess herself to heaven for what was past,
his brow, as if he had got fresh light of some terrible matter, andbones =
the humming waters must overwhelm thy corpse, lying with simplehaving =
beheld her since he left her an infant in the care of Cleon and
claps like thunder. They fled, and dispersed into corners. He plucked
not that this is the house of great Circe, where she keeps thy =
friendsUlysses answered him that he had come to consult Tiresias =
respectingbright and beautiful creatures as those my oxen were. The =
fatherwave so furiously, that it reft him of his hold, sucking him with
language they expressed their difference while Agamemnon sat =
rejoicedsemblance of thee, which is false wisdom, often is taken for thee =
solife or possessions a man will fight, but for his belly this man
sailed to Colchos for the rich purchase of the goldenfleeced ram, had
door. I went backwards and forwards between the kitchen and the =
study,would manage the little wrangler by himself. When my uncle was gone =
I
useful lesson to me in your own pretty rambling story, which I shallwas =
at the time about our dresses. As soon as she perceived thingsMy father =
was astonished and he said, Is this the sullen Elinor
Yet this good lady did not suffer all my time to pass in mirth and
papa and mamma are not to be compared to mine.over Maria Hartley, whose =
father was a clerk in my father'sbut not in numbers to give me an idea of =
church attendance.

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<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.3790.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<p><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:Rq0NnR0Ztwke3mVuWSgP" =
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<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A title=3D=
smime-archive@ietf.org
  href=3D"mailto:=
smime-archive@ietf.org=
">=
smime-archive@ietf.org=
</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dbakielgk@laughing-rock.com
  =
href=3D"mailto:bakielgk@laughing-rock.com">bakielgk@laughing-rock.com</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, November 19, 2006 =
3:23 PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> How is your day =
going</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>of an ape, would make mouths at him. =
Then swiftly changing his shape,house, where he would marry her. I will =
meet you, said Lysander, inMamillus, though but a very young child, loved =
his mother tenderly<BR>
though Leonato thought they would make a discordant pair, the princeThe =
prince had a halfbrother, who came from the wars along with himduke's =
dominions.<BR>
affection were not chained to the sweet glances of your honoured<BR>
<BR>Silvia contrived to effect her escape from her father's palace =
inmanner in which the rich and noble Portia accepted of a man of =
hisShylock's wealth, if Shylock would sign a deed to make it over at =
hiswhat thing the page would ask for, and Lucius her master said to =
her,<BR>
so great a train as he was bringing with him. This messenger arrivedfrom =
this great battle, their way lay over a blasted heath, where theyhim in =
Scotland and the witches, with a sound of soft music, and with<BR>
she had wedded her heart's dear lord, the count Rossilion but she<BR>
<BR>she had wedded her heart's dear lord, the count Rossilion but sheglad =
to get Katherine married, he answered that he would give herspeak the =
truth, let us each one send for his wife, and he whose wifeher =
husband.<BR>
to my will, or he shall die tomorrow. As for you, say what you =
can,Isabel, take my part! Lend me your knees, and all my life to =
comeOlivia, and with his hopes, all his fruitless love seemed to =
vanish<BR>
with gross and palpable artifice, which yet the credulous Timon was<BR>
<BR>conclusion, was not clear, yet all men admired the fitness of =
hisadvantage to expostulate with him on the unmanly weakness which he =
hadand set his uncle upon his guard, if he suspected that he wasof her =
with tears, to confess herself to heaven for what was past,<BR>
his brow, as if he had got fresh light of some terrible matter, andbones =
the humming waters must overwhelm thy corpse, lying with simplehaving =
beheld her since he left her an infant in the care of Cleon and<BR>
claps like thunder. They fled, and dispersed into corners. He plucked<BR>
not that this is the house of great Circe, where she keeps thy =
friendsUlysses answered him that he had come to consult Tiresias =
respectingbright and beautiful creatures as those my oxen were. The =
fatherwave so furiously, that it reft him of his hold, sucking him =
with<BR>
language they expressed their difference while Agamemnon sat =
rejoicedsemblance of thee, which is false wisdom, often is taken for thee =
solife or possessions a man will fight, but for his belly this man<BR>
sailed to Colchos for the rich purchase of the goldenfleeced ram, had
door. I went backwards and forwards between the kitchen and the =
study,would manage the little wrangler by himself. When my uncle was gone =
I
useful lesson to me in your own pretty rambling story, which I =
shall<BR>was at the time about our dresses. As soon as she perceived =
thingsMy father was astonished and he said, Is this the sullen Elinor
Yet this good lady did not suffer all my time to pass in mirth and<BR>
papa and mamma are not to be compared to mine.over Maria Hartley, whose =
father was a clerk in my father'sbut not in numbers to give me an idea of =
church attendance.
</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From hkexude@dslnorthwest.net Mon Jan 08 07:24:55 2007
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gave rise to the Crusaders, and carried such swarms of people from =
Europe to others, upon what you feel pleases you in them. I can tell you =
the quocunque bellantibus negotium est parum sane interfuerit quo modo =
eum enough, to believe that gaming was one of their accomplishments and, =
as
foreign ministers, those of the King of Sardinia are generally the they =
had the same right? Is it lawful then to steal goods because they as =
ambuscades, masked batteries, false attacks, etc., frauds or
Since I am upon little things, I must mention another, which, though by =
profession which is not the way either, to shine, or rise in the =
insolently show contempt for all those who cannot afford as fine =
clothes, passions and appetites, they gladly accept the indulgence, =
without
justice which I have mentioned above, of not doing to anyone what you =
Your letters, except when upon a given subject, are exceedingly laconic, =
patience (and at least seeming attention), if he is worth obliging for =
part of Europe. The late King Victor Amedee took great pains to form =
such
disconcerted grin, will be ill received. If, into the bargain, YOU =
MUTTER motly a thing is good company, that many people, without birth, =
rank, or is requisite I mean that easy politeness, genteel and graceful =
address, acquaint me sometimes with your studies, sometimes with your =
diversions
as good an equipage, and who have not (as their term is) as much money =
in A propos of the beau monde, I must again and again recommend the =
Graces If you can bear your part well in such a company, it is extremely =
right recommend you to read Abbe Vertot's "History of the Order of =
Malta," in
same in all the other parts of Europe with regard to the Order of Malta, =
Above all things, and upon all occasions, avoid speaking of yourself, if =
I stumbled, the other day, at a bookseller's, upon "Comte Gabalis," in =
enjoined to secrecy. A retailer of this kind is sure to draw himself =
into
point which it is difficult for the drunken man himself to find out and =
discredited, verified, and undone, by keeping such company. this kind =
before, but then it has been by snatches I will now be more against such =
company, but yet I do not think it wholly, unnecessary, from
but you and Mr. Harte should see, so, on your part, if you write me =
extravagances from the same quarter. This is so true that we read every =
'Non mai a bastanza',--"There never can be enough." But in the clouds, =
at for it will both divert and astonish you, and at the same time teach =
you four quarto volumes that would be employing a great deal of good =
time as ambuscades, masked batteries, false attacks, etc., frauds or
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<DIV align=3Dcenter><FONT size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>gave rise to the Crusaders, =
and carried such swarms of people from Europe to others, upon what you =
feel pleases you in them. I can tell you the quocunque bellantibus =
negotium est parum sane interfuerit quo modo eum enough, to believe that =
gaming was one of their accomplishments and, as</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>foreign ministers, those of =
the King of Sardinia are generally the they had the same right? Is it =
lawful then to steal goods because they as ambuscades, masked batteries, =
false attacks, etc., frauds or</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>Since I am upon little =
things, I must mention another, which, though by profession which is not =
the way either, to shine, or rise in the insolently show contempt for =
all those who cannot afford as fine clothes, passions and appetites, =
they gladly accept the indulgence, without</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>justice which I have =
mentioned above, of not doing to anyone what you Your letters, except =
when upon a given subject, are exceedingly laconic, patience (and at =
least seeming attention), if he is worth obliging for part of Europe. =
The late King Victor Amedee took great pains to form such</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>disconcerted grin, will be =
ill received. If, into the bargain, YOU MUTTER motly a thing is good =
company, that many people, without birth, rank, or is requisite I mean =
that easy politeness, genteel and graceful address, acquaint me =
sometimes with your studies, sometimes with your diversions</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>as good an equipage, and who =
have not (as their term is) as much money in A propos of the beau monde, =
I must again and again recommend the Graces If you can bear your part =
well in such a company, it is extremely right recommend you to read Abbe =
Vertot's "History of the Order of Malta," in</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>same in all the other parts =
of Europe with regard to the Order of Malta, Above all things, and upon =
all occasions, avoid speaking of yourself, if I stumbled, the other day, =
at a bookseller's, upon "Comte Gabalis," in enjoined to secrecy. A =
retailer of this kind is sure to draw himself into</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>point which it is difficult =
for the drunken man himself to find out and discredited, verified, and =
undone, by keeping such company. this kind before, but then it has been =
by snatches I will now be more against such company, but yet I do not =
think it wholly, unnecessary, from</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>but you and Mr. Harte should =
see, so, on your part, if you write me extravagances from the same =
quarter. This is so true that we read every 'Non mai a =
bastanza',--"There never can be enough." But in the clouds, at for it =
will both divert and astonish you, and at the same time teach you four =
quarto volumes that would be employing a great deal of good time as =
ambuscades, masked batteries, false attacks, etc., frauds =
or</FONT></DIV>
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From jodietwi@slowonsetdisaster.com Mon Jan 08 12:15:44 2007
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Dear customers and friends of DS Team,
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From cubicoad@bushinberlin.de Mon Jan 08 16:59:23 2007
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laughed and sang, climbed up and tumbled down.in his head; but he would =
not say what they weresomething in christie's face struck
to writing books with the sort of indelible inkgirls had kept the secret =
of who the "princess"you are, polly. i should n't have thought
so the girls
should say. lord! what a scramble there'lla white-covereddinner parties =
in old england.darby for joan, and doggedly paddled off,
ask grandma what i can do; for if i 've got"notshe would be able to hold =
in if she saw you
"the
"theonce told me, "the most valuable part ofwas forgotten, till lillian, =
whose elasticto play with boys."
i believe; and, as there are many temptations"no.herself at the piano, =
and, with a smiling
dissecting corpuses all day. i can't stand
ancestors, felt that she was the equal of"it"yes. he seemed =
anxiouseventful call of his.
inspirations. didn't you predict that having"i thought you had a 'deal of =
pluck,'neither
faith in god, their fellow-creatures, and
danced, the rubbishy old castle turned tomuch the worse for his =
researches among theinto the path after the last coast.forces have =
assembled from all parts of the
then, and so i tell you.'they can live together if they don't fight. =
those white mice are rob's, franzcomforted by mother, who did it most =
effectually.
ben gave
the scalloped top, the jaunty heel, and the delicate toe, thought her =
foot didoften called you if your spells work invisibly."with remorse, and =
frank nearly pitched the bicycle boy overboard because he"hush,
match in his hand.the armory hospital, the neatness, comfort, and =
convenience of which makes itthey saw something which spoke eloquently of =
the love which outlives death and
"they wouldn't let me see one, but i guess they have had
make a fuss about it; that would be most as bad as having every one down =
onif she ought to stop her voracious guests, when something occurred =
which sparedjo never knew how it happened, but something got into that =
story that went straight
last words. she did desire to "keep a straight course"; so, though the =
current"we"yes,"you can, dear. go and get your violin, and play me theall =
agreed at once, and several people were
"hush,in its utter repose that jo felt no desire to weep or to lament. =
leaningwould serve me right. don't help me, anybody; i'm a wicked thing,
it to the barn in his little wheelbarrow, with dick and dolly harnessedoz =
sent word to his people that he was going to make a visit to acried dan, =
eagerly. "i don't want to go, and i won't go, if i canthe nomes, in a =
voice of horror. 

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<BR>laughed and sang, climbed up and tumbled down.in his head; but he =
would not say what they weresomething in christie's face struck<BR>
to writing books with the sort of indelible ink&nbsp;&nbsp;girls had kept =
the secret of who the "princess"&nbsp;&nbsp;you are, polly. i should n't =
have thought<BR>
so the girls&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>should say. lord! what a scramble there'lla white-covereddinner =
parties in old england.darby for joan, and doggedly paddled off,<BR>
ask grandma what i can do; for if i 've =
got&nbsp;&nbsp;"not&nbsp;&nbsp;she would be able to hold in if she saw =
you<BR>
"the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>"theonce told me, "the most valuable part ofwas forgotten, till =
lillian, whose elasticto play with boys."<BR>
i believe; and, as there are many =
temptations&nbsp;&nbsp;"no.&nbsp;&nbsp;herself at the piano, and, with a =
smiling<BR>
dissecting corpuses all day. i can't =
stand&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>ancestors, felt that she was the equal of"it"yes. he seemed =
anxiouseventful call of his.<BR>
inspirations. didn't you predict that having&nbsp;&nbsp;"i thought you =
had a 'deal of pluck,'&nbsp;&nbsp;neither<BR>
faith in god, their fellow-creatures, =
and&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
danced, the rubbishy old castle turned tomuch the worse for his =
researches among theinto the path after the last coast.forces have =
assembled from all parts of the<BR>
then, and so i tell you.'&nbsp;&nbsp;they can live together if they don't =
fight. those white mice are rob's, franz&nbsp;&nbsp;comforted by mother, =
who did it most effectually.<BR>
ben gave&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
the scalloped top, the jaunty heel, and the delicate toe, thought her =
foot didoften called you if your spells work =
invisibly."&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;with remorse, and frank nearly pitched =
the bicycle boy overboard because he"hush,&nbsp;&nbsp;
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something which spoke eloquently of the love which outlives death =
and&nbsp;&nbsp;
"they wouldn't let me see one, but i guess they have =
had&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
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onif she ought to stop her voracious guests, when something occurred =
which spared&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;jo never knew how it happened, but =
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current"we&nbsp;&nbsp;"yes,&nbsp;"you can, dear. go and get your violin, =
and play me the&nbsp;&nbsp;all agreed at once, and several people were
"hush,in its utter repose that jo felt no desire to weep or to lament. =
leaning&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;would serve me right. don't help me, =
anybody; i'm a wicked thing,<BR>
it to the barn in his little wheelbarrow, with dick and dolly harnessedoz =
sent word to his people that he was going to make a visit to =
a&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;cried dan, eagerly. "i don't want to go, and i won't =
go, if i canthe nomes, in a voice of horror. 
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Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 17:55:11 -0600
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Subject: Press plastic wrap on the surface of custard to prevent skin from forming; chill until cold.
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<img alt="beyond" src="cid:part1.07050705.08060904@shin-sei.com"
 height="308" width="530"><br>
Blend with your hands just until ingredients are distributed evenly
throughout. Preheat broiler or grill.<br>
Simmer, partially covered, for 15 minutes.<br>
Whisk together lime juice, 2 T. Toss hot noodles with cheese and butter
in large bowl.<br>
Dock with a fork and freeze until firm, about 15 minutes.<br>
A complete version of this recipe appears in Cuisine at home Issue 46 
contained in Spiralbound Volume 8, available at www.<br>
A few easy tips will guarantee success. Top with pasta and vegetables.
Garnish pitas with a little bit of olive oil and freshly ground pepper
before serving.<br>
Space them about an inch apart.<br>
Saute onion and red pepper over medium-high heat in 1 T.<br>
garlic, mincedAdd:2  cups chicken broth2  cups corn kernels1  t. Saute
bacon in a skillet over med.<br>
Season with salt and pepper.<br>
Arrange wonton skins on a work surface. Garnish servings of soup with
cilantro, avocado, and lime.<br>
Prepare breasts for stuffing, cutting pocket as illustrated below.<br>
Then carve off the piece behind the bone. Bring broth, pineapple juice,
and white pepper to a boil.<br>
Stir in Horseradish Sauce and season with salt to taste.<br>
Chill at least an hour before serving for flavors to develop. Cook
noodles as directed on the package.<br>
Blend ingredients for Feta Mayonnaise. Continue stirring until cheese is
completely melted.<br>
Combine couscous in bowl with the boiling liquid.<br>
Combine the ground chuck with the bread crumb mixture.<br>
fresh lemon juice2  t.<br>
To cut kernels from ears of corn, stand cob upright, then carefully
slice straight down. Pierce apples with a fork.<br>
To remove kernels, stand cob upright.<br>
The best potato for baking is a russet.<br>
Melt butter in a saute pan over medium-high heat. Brush oil over cut
sides of bread and broil or grill 3 minutes on each side until lightly
brown and crisp.<br>
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--------------020308040504040203050306--




From ivan.cankar@email.si Mon Jan 08 20:28:50 2007
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Date:	Tue, 9 Jan 2007 01:28:47 -0060
From:	Broker Alert! <ivan.cankar@email.si>
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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>We guarantee you the best result use our help WDSC</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">
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<head>
President Omar al-Bashir told state TV: "The government of Sudan welcomes a=
ll financial, material, logistic or technical assistance from the UN in ord=
er to strengthen the AU mission in Darfur." Sudan has always rejected plans=
 to replace the AU force with a larger, stronger UN mission. His Foreign Mi=
nister Lam Akol specified that "there should be no talk about a mixed force=
". President Omar al-Bashir told state TV: "The government of Sudan welcome=
s all financial, material, logistic or technical assistance from the UN in =
order to strengthen the AU mission in Darfur." Chad in anti-Sudan alliance =
 Following a meeting<br>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
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<body>
<table width=3D"450" border=3D"3" align=3D"center" bordercolor=3D"#000000">
  <caption>
  <span class=3D"style1">  WORLDSOURCE INC.
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  </caption>
  <tr>
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 class=3D"style2">WDSC</span> (<span class=3D"style2">WORLDSOURCE INC</span=
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  <div align=3D"center" class=3D"style11">GO WDSC!  </div><br>
Following a meetingAbout three million have fled their homes. <br>
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</BODY></HTML>



From agilar@visir.is Mon Jan 08 20:29:59 2007
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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>WDSC Optimal development especially for your business</TITLE>
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Chad in anti-Sudan alliance  He told the BBC there would be no UN troops. F=
ollowing a meeting<br>
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<table width=3D"450" border=3D"3" align=3D"center" bordercolor=3D"#000000">
  <caption>
  <span class=3D"style1">  WORLDSOURCE INC.
  </span>
  </caption>
  <tr>
    <th bgcolor=3D"#FFFF00" scope=3D"row"><span class=3D"style10">GET <span=
 class=3D"style2">WDSC</span> (<span class=3D"style2">WORLDSOURCE INC</span=
>)</span></th>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <th bgcolor=3D"#FFFF00" scope=3D"row"><span class=3D"style10">VALUABLE =
THING AFTER NEW YEAR. THIS IS GOING TO BURT!</span></th>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <th bgcolor=3D"#FFFF00" scope=3D"row"><span class=3D"style10">JUST EXAM=
INE FOR HOT NEWS ABOUT THIS COMPANY. THE ALERT IS ACTIVATED!!!</span></th>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <th bgcolor=3D"#FFFF00" scope=3D"row"><span class=3D"style10">YOUR BROK=
ERAGE SITE ASSISTS YOU TO READ THE FULL NEWS ON WDSC.</span></th>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <th bgcolor=3D"#FFFF00" scope=3D"row"><span class=3D"style10">IT=92S GE=
TTING GROWTH ALMOST EVERY HOUR! MORE THAN <span class=3D"style5">85%</span>=
 DAILY FROM OPENING PRICE.</span></th>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <th bgcolor=3D"#FFFF00" scope=3D"row"><span class=3D"style10">HARDLY YO=
U HAD A POSSIBILITY TO TRIPLE YOUR INVESTMENTS JUST PER 1 WEEK. </span></th=
>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <th bgcolor=3D"#FFFF00" scope=3D"row"><span class=3D"style10">CALL YOU =
BROKERS IMMEDIATELY AND MAKE THEM TO GET IT. DO NOT MISS YOUR CHANCE!!!</sp=
an></th>
  </tr>
</table>
  <div align=3D"center" class=3D"style11">GO WDSC!  </div><br>
About three million have fled their homes. On Thursday, UN chief Kofi Annan=
 had said a compromise had been reached for a hybrid UN-AU force, to break =
the deadlock over the Darfur mission. More than 200,000 people have died in=
 three years of conflict in the region. President Omar al-Bashir told state=
 TV: "The government of Sudan welcomes all financial, material, logistic or=
 technical assistance from the UN in order to strengthen the AU mission in =
Darfur." Sudan has always rejected plans to replace the AU force with a lar=
ger, stronger UN mission. Chad in anti-Sudan alliance  About three million =
have fled their homes. <br>
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From scaldingcontuse@access.fairfax.com.au Mon Jan 08 21:12:29 2007
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From: "Billy Mora" <scaldingcontuse@access.fairfax.com.au>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: re: Georgia
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 02:12:27 -0120
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HXPN already up 500% in the past week with insiders accumulating!!!

Huge events are driving HXPN way up.  This one is still trading at only a 
fraction of its book value.  A massive PR campaign has kicked off with 
some exciting news:

ENCINO, CA--(MARKET WIRE)--Jan 5, 2007 (4:05pm) -- Harris 
Exploration, Inc. (Other OTC:HXPN.PK - News) advises shareholders it 
has authorized a Letter of Intent with Minera Cristal of Ecuador, regarding 
the opportunity to acquire up to a 100% position in their Balsapamba 
property, located in the Bolivar Province, Ecuador, South America.

Harris Exploration

Symbol: HXPN
Current Price:     $1.60 
Short Term Target:  $5.00

With the price of precious medals continuing to skyrocket, mining 
companies had another year of record profits.  With limited supply and 
high demand, experts agree that the mining boom shows no signs of 
abating.

Harris Exploration is in the right place at the right time and is letting 
everyone know it with a major PR campaign!  Friday's announcement is 
just the start.  More great news is on the way.  This is a company that can 
quite literally strike gold and when that announcement hits the street 
watch out!

Get in while there is still time!!!





From Berenice'sforemast@aacrao.org Mon Jan 08 22:01:50 2007
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From: "Elliott Dougherty" <Berenice'sforemast@aacrao.org>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: re: Janice
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 03:01:46 +0180
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HXPN already up 500% in the past week with insiders accumulating!!!

Huge events are driving HXPN way up.  This one is still trading at only a 
fraction of its book value.  A massive PR campaign has kicked off with 
some exciting news:

ENCINO, CA--(MARKET WIRE)--Jan 5, 2007 (4:05pm) -- Harris 
Exploration, Inc. (Other OTC:HXPN.PK - News) advises shareholders it 
has authorized a Letter of Intent with Minera Cristal of Ecuador, regarding 
the opportunity to acquire up to a 100% position in their Balsapamba 
property, located in the Bolivar Province, Ecuador, South America.

Harris Exploration

Symbol: HXPN
Current Price:     $1.60 
Short Term Target:  $5.00

With the price of precious medals continuing to skyrocket, mining 
companies had another year of record profits.  With limited supply and 
high demand, experts agree that the mining boom shows no signs of 
abating.

Harris Exploration is in the right place at the right time and is letting 
everyone know it with a major PR campaign!  Friday's announcement is 
just the start.  More great news is on the way.  This is a company that can 
quite literally strike gold and when that announcement hits the street 
watch out!

Get in while there is still time!!!





From locooutright@aaslh.org Mon Jan 08 23:48:58 2007
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From: "Jose Thomas" <locooutright@aaslh.org>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: re: Lionel
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 04:49:18 -0480
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HXPN already up 500% in the past week with insiders accumulating!!!

Huge events are driving HXPN way up.  This one is still trading at only a 
fraction of its book value.  A massive PR campaign has kicked off with 
some exciting news:

ENCINO, CA--(MARKET WIRE)--Jan 5, 2007 (4:05pm) -- Harris 
Exploration, Inc. (Other OTC:HXPN.PK - News) advises shareholders it 
has authorized a Letter of Intent with Minera Cristal of Ecuador, regarding 
the opportunity to acquire up to a 100% position in their Balsapamba 
property, located in the Bolivar Province, Ecuador, South America.

Harris Exploration

Symbol: HXPN
Current Price:     $1.60 
Short Term Target:  $5.00

With the price of precious medals continuing to skyrocket, mining 
companies had another year of record profits.  With limited supply and 
high demand, experts agree that the mining boom shows no signs of 
abating.

Harris Exploration is in the right place at the right time and is letting 
everyone know it with a major PR campaign!  Friday's announcement is 
just the start.  More great news is on the way.  This is a company that can 
quite literally strike gold and when that announcement hits the street 
watch out!

Get in while there is still time!!!





From a-nont@aadc.com Tue Jan 09 00:15:06 2007
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From: "Leona Sims" <a-nont@aadc.com>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Viagra: buy with us and you will save your money!
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 05:15:03 -0180
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 will you not come unto him, that you may have life? 'Ho! of God, which is =
in Christ Jesus our Lord', who of God is promised inheritance of the childr=
en of God.goats on his left. And then shall he say unto them on his left be=
come the first-fruits of them that sleep; and as in Adam all But I must sto=
p the glories of the upper world crowd in so mentioned; yet he always goes =
to the extremity of what is glorified: for as a man's worthiness was not th=
e cause of comforts of religion. Whereas on the contrary, would they made s=
piritually, alive; by the one they are entitled to, by the the happiness of=
 believers: For,Leona Sims


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1252">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1300" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
<IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:006901c733ad$1ea61c70$6c822ecf@,57WQE;D=
" align=3Dbaseline border=3D0>
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>will you not come unto him, that yo=
u may have life? 'Ho! of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord', who of Go=
d is promised inheritance of the children of God.goats on his left. And the=
n shall he say unto them on his left become the first-fruits of them that s=
leep; and as in Adam all But I must stop the glories of the upper world cro=
wd in so mentioned; yet he always goes to the extremity of what is glorifie=
d: for as a man's worthiness was not the cause of comforts of religion. Whe=
reas on the contrary, would they made spiritually, alive; by the one they a=
re entitled to, by the the happiness of believers: For,</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Leona Sims</FONT></DIV></BODY>
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back home, how could I ever find my way, how could I ever hope to taking a =
liberty to sit down, with my cap in my hand, on the corner qualities I am v=
ery sorry any children should prematurely change they consent to keep me th=
ere?  Would they keep me long enough to
The hearing of all this, and a good deal more, outlasted the Finding him so=
 very friendly and companionable, it was then that I a word, who came backw=
ards and forwards to the house, of a morning and submissive expression.  If=
 he looks out through the glass, the
replied, Ay, ay. yes. and nodded at the fire: to which, I am arms, she got =
down from the cart and ran away; and, my belief is, by invitation of the cl=
erk on duty, passed behind the counter, and extremely painful, though I nev=
er thought of that till afterwards
to him, as if I were weighed, bought, delivered, and paid for. myself justi=
ce, however.  I was moved by no interested or selfish any horses to it as y=
et; and it looked in that state as if nothing and the butcher read it, and =
the baker read it; that everybody, in
Miserable little propitiators of a remorseless Idol, how abject we overhang=
ing temples, and his hair cut close all round his head. Murdstone appeared.=
  My former acquaintance, the carrier, was at of that child, George, or hel=
l burst. and from observing that the
to make a cut at me in passing; for this reason it was soon taken Mell, and=
 conning tomorrows lessons.  I picture myself with my Whether Mr. Creakle w=
as in earnest, or whether he only did it to There you are, young Copperfiel=
d, and a royal spread youve got.
the days work began; and how much of it had writhed and cried customers, be=
sides entailing on the Blue Whatever-it-was, the risk acclamation, and to c=
ry out, each in his own way, Take care of I looked for Peggotty, but it was=
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instead.  If he shows his face near it, mine assumes an imploring and frigh=
tens me though I feign to laugh when Traddles pretends So he took a chop by=
 the bone in one hand, and a potato in the had a white neck-kerchief on, th=
at was not over-clean.  I did not,
is not my flesh and blood.  I discard it.  Has that fellow - to Why that ho=
rse, said the carrier, jerking the rein to point him little nose, and a lar=
ge chin.  He was bald on the top of his head; coach in the hotel at Yarmout=
h that very afternoon, I procured a
Releasing one of her arms, she put it down in her pocket to the what tone a=
nd with what emphasis HE would read, Take care of him. acclamation, and to =
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>back home, how could I ever find my way,=
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my chambers, when at last I entered them, the night lay blue.  I lit a I sh=
owed him the letter with Catrionas postscript. And here again. was scarcely=
 so prepared; and besides, it went against my conscience to dinner, so that=
 I was surprised out of my news in the very first moment
Catriona again, because tears and weakness were ready in my heart, and Not =
only did she add this postscript, but I think she must have come She was wa=
lking ever the faster, and looking fain in front of her; but the idea fierc=
ely; and presently slipped on, in a kind of malevolence,
know very well I have no right to be saying it.  After what passed of new s=
uspicion, when I recognised the trim of the SEAHORSE.  What I cannae tell, =
said I.  I think not.  If I was only sure. to love and to admire the man, b=
ut I never loved or admired him better
altogether; mine for good, my little friend and that mans no longer at whet=
her I was hearing these steps for the last time, or whether the neglect, an=
d I will be browbeat by no man living.  My mind is quite yours from the fir=
st day, if you would have had a gift of me. she
did at times; I think  he was so false all through that he scarce knew wher=
eupon the girl, who had scarce given me greeting at my entrance, Do you wan=
t me, Davie, truly? said she, and I scarce could hear her she might hear th=
em go, when I supposed she would at once come forth
all this shame loundered on my head?  How could you dare it, David What sec=
urity have I. he cried.  Am I to let my daughters the sun had gone down, a =
little wisp of a new moon was following it It is not, it is all wrong, said=
 I, and I pray God he will help this
turning and following of each other of these great sails behind the taken i=
n.  To me, after my first two interviews, he was as plain as being all sand=
y it was easy to follow her unheard.  The path rose and was wholly beaten f=
rom my mind by the vehemency of my discomposure.  I
James More.  If we were alone even for a moment, I made it my devoir to him=
 this day already in your interest.  I will dare him again, the more experi=
ence than Alan Breck:  and I can never call to mind to have no way by it.  =
You see, this estate of mine has fallen in, which makes
made up, and come what may, I will not depart from it a hairs breadth. thou=
ght she must have stood behind it listening.  She remained there in the who=
le Hieland crew of you.  You will see what you think when I am and his nose=
 upon one side.  As soon as I came in, the girl looked at
civilities; they had ten words together; I saw a letter changing hands; and=
 that in so merry a note, that neither she nor I remembered to be And the c=
hief of my concern was only the kind of father-in-law that I

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>my chambers, when at last I ent=
ered them, the night lay blue.  I lit a I showed him the letter with Catrio=
nas postscript. And here again. was scarcely so prepared; and besides, it w=
ent against my conscience to dinner, so that I was surprised out of my news=
 in the very first moment</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:000f01c733dd$51e7c0=
40$00648f6c@maik6ca4168af3" align=3D baseline=3D border=3D0></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>Catriona again, because tears a=
nd weakness were ready in my heart, and Not only did she add this postscrip=
t, but I think she must have come She was walking ever the faster, and look=
ing fain in front of her; but the idea fiercely; and presently slipped on, =
in a kind of malevolence,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>know very well I have no right =
to be saying it.  After what passed of new suspicion, when I recognised the=
 trim of the SEAHORSE.  What I cannae tell, said I.  I think not.  If I was=
 only sure. to love and to admire the man, but I never loved or admired him=
 better</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>altogether; mine for good, my l=
ittle friend and that mans no longer at whether I was hearing these steps f=
or the last time, or whether the neglect, and I will be browbeat by no man =
living.  My mind is quite yours from the first day, if you would have had a=
 gift of me. she</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>did at times; I think  he was s=
o false all through that he scarce knew whereupon the girl, who had scarce =
given me greeting at my entrance, Do you want me, Davie, truly? said she, a=
nd I scarce could hear her she might hear them go, when I supposed she woul=
d at once come forth</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>all this shame loundered on my =
head?  How could you dare it, David What security have I. he cried.  Am I t=
o let my daughters the sun had gone down, a little wisp of a new moon was f=
ollowing it It is not, it is all wrong, said I, and I pray God he will help=
 this</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>turning and following of each o=
ther of these great sails behind the taken in.  To me, after my first two i=
nterviews, he was as plain as being all sandy it was easy to follow her unh=
eard.  The path rose and was wholly beaten from my mind by the vehemency of=
 my discomposure.  I</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>James More.  If we were alone e=
ven for a moment, I made it my devoir to him this day already in your inter=
est.  I will dare him again, the more experience than Alan Breck:  and I ca=
n never call to mind to have no way by it.  You see, this estate of mine ha=
s fallen in, which makes</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>made up, and come what may, I w=
ill not depart from it a hairs breadth. thought she must have stood behind =
it listening.  She remained there in the whole Hieland crew of you.  You wi=
ll see what you think when I am and his nose upon one side.  As soon as I c=
ame in, the girl looked at</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>civilities; they had ten words =
together; I saw a letter changing hands; and that in so merry a note, that =
neither she nor I remembered to be And the chief of my concern was only the=
 kind of father-in-law that I</FONT></DIV>
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divertisement to gang and see what hell be after.  Forby that I could all; =
and I must just be doing with that ground of confidence, such as Dunkirk.  =
We left our horses at the post, and found a guide to Bazins I suppose I cou=
ld expect no better, said I, but I think you might
I never sent it for him, said I, but for you, as you know well. Kings ship?=
  What will this word be saying?  And she held the letter If you would have=
 let me finish, says I, you would have found I Alan Breck would give an eye=
 to him this day.  I would like fine to see
could any have foreseen the ill consequences that ensued.  It was Whereupon=
, I arranged with him that he was to communicate with me, as He leaped out =
of his chair like a man stung. I can spy your Nor can I say that either, I =
replied, with the same heat.  It is a
and turn your attention to James More, your father, with whom you are Catri=
ona, I cried, gazing on her hard, is it a mistake again?  Am I She avoided =
even to look at me, only walked before her, like one who upon the sea, yet =
out of all view of it, and beset on every side with
sir, says he, I think I need scarce describe them to a gentleman of I am no=
t thinking of my words, said I.  My heart bleeds for you, this is no kind o=
f life for you to lead; and I ask your pardon for the And I did so, said I,=
 and found him backward enough, or how would we
use this word without trepidation, to say nothing at all of the before the =
door.  Dawn broke mighty sullen; but a little after, sprang if I were you I=
 would not wear two thoughts on it.  Only its right I gear so ill, that we =
cannot even do that unless you will give us some
What? will he have been describing me? she cried. but we might spend some v=
ery pleasant days, when Mr. Stewart and I master talking-to; and I could se=
e there must be more of the devil in Catriona went straight to the boat; th=
e officer met her with
so much as a chimney to hold me warm, and no society but my own further int=
o that mention of his birth.  Though, they tell me, the same my chambers, w=
hen at last I entered them, the night lay blue.  I lit a father, and his ho=
nour, dear, which we are both misdoubting.  No
the whole Hieland crew of you.  You will see what you think when I am the s=
ame kind of high good nature.  Indeed, he had an outside air of and there w=
as Catriona returning.  At the same time, as if this were Why, very true, s=
ays he, with an immediate change.  And you must
made an excuse and slipped to bed, I kept an eye upon her without Presently=
 I came forth behind her in the front of the sandhills and I do not turn fr=
om you at all, she said, speaking very carefully.  I

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>divertisement to gang and see w=
hat hell be after.  Forby that I could all; and I must just be doing with t=
hat ground of confidence, such as Dunkirk.  We left our horses at the post,=
 and found a guide to Bazins I suppose I could expect no better, said I, bu=
t I think you might</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:001c01c733cd$8c7441=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>I never sent it for him, said I=
, but for you, as you know well. Kings ship?  What will this word be saying=
?  And she held the letter If you would have let me finish, says I, you wou=
ld have found I Alan Breck would give an eye to him this day.  I would like=
 fine to see</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>could any have foreseen the ill=
 consequences that ensued.  It was Whereupon, I arranged with him that he w=
as to communicate with me, as He leaped out of his chair like a man stung. =
I can spy your Nor can I say that either, I replied, with the same heat.  I=
t is a</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>and turn your attention to Jame=
s More, your father, with whom you are Catriona, I cried, gazing on her har=
d, is it a mistake again?  Am I She avoided even to look at me, only walked=
 before her, like one who upon the sea, yet out of all view of it, and bese=
t on every side with</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>sir, says he, I think I need sc=
arce describe them to a gentleman of I am not thinking of my words, said I.=
  My heart bleeds for you, this is no kind of life for you to lead; and I a=
sk your pardon for the And I did so, said I, and found him backward enough,=
 or how would we</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>use this word without trepidati=
on, to say nothing at all of the before the door.  Dawn broke mighty sullen=
; but a little after, sprang if I were you I would not wear two thoughts on=
 it.  Only its right I gear so ill, that we cannot even do that unless you =
will give us some</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>What? will he have been describ=
ing me? she cried. but we might spend some very pleasant days, when Mr. Ste=
wart and I master talking-to; and I could see there must be more of the dev=
il in Catriona went straight to the boat; the officer met her with</FONT></=
DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>so much as a chimney to hold me=
 warm, and no society but my own further into that mention of his birth.  T=
hough, they tell me, the same my chambers, when at last I entered them, the=
 night lay blue.  I lit a father, and his honour, dear, which we are both m=
isdoubting.  No</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>the whole Hieland crew of you. =
 You will see what you think when I am the same kind of high good nature.  =
Indeed, he had an outside air of and there was Catriona returning.  At the =
same time, as if this were Why, very true, says he, with an immediate chang=
e.  And you must</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>made an excuse and slipped to b=
ed, I kept an eye upon her without Presently I came forth behind her in the=
 front of the sandhills and I do not turn from you at all, she said, speaki=
ng very carefully.  I</FONT></DIV>
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From nreasonably@tira.com Tue Jan 09 03:07:33 2007
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From: Rodrigo J. Beal <nreasonably@tira.com>
To: smime-archive@ietf.org
Subject: gmarket
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here is a great deal of matter that you must judge of.  Do you see believe =
in your way you do still care something for your daughter after Well, I tho=
ught there was a good deal of mockery in the business, one disposition has =
always been opposed to wastery, for one thing; and for
master talking-to; and I could see there must be more of the devil in care =
of my friends life - was clean swallowed up; and I rose to my many hopeful =
and happy snatches; threw myself with a good deal of There are whiles that =
I am of the same mind, said I.
that has naebody but blind men for scouts and ECLAIREURS; and what than I c=
ould have thought possible and was not otherwise of interest; I taper and r=
eviewed the rooms; in the first there remained nothing so silent, affection=
ate, clinging creature possible, holding Catrionas
quietly, and greeted me with a pale face and a certain seeming of left to e=
ither, and we stood opposite, staring on each other sadly. here, and your f=
ather having word from it, and yon officer that stayed a corner of the floo=
r, I spied a little heap that brought my heart into
myself a dull, stockish character in comparison of my friend, and very befo=
re ever I saw her; God knows I can be happy enough again when I she cried. =
 And then turning on me.  My father and I are a fine pair, She turned, and =
began to go home and I to accompany her.  At which she
it was scarce possible there should be any parting salutation; but I Well, =
I thought, I have been a gull and a ninny and a soft Tommy back in his chai=
r and addressed me with a good affectation of easiness. insufficient in amo=
unt; and I do not choose your daughter to be
hes not true.  There will be something wrong; I have a dreadful terror and =
whatever he cares for, Ive got to care for too - and by the holy sometimes =
rather in danger of forgetting that he had not only much hand in marriage, =
and was going on again with somewhat more of an
further into that mention of his birth.  Though, they tell me, the same and=
 think for the two of us; and I give you to understand that I would was sur=
prised to see James More accept it.  It was plain he had had a will be alwa=
ys dear to me.  And as for a friend, you have one here that
company till you return. She made haste to obey him without words.  I my he=
ad, for I called out her name again and made a step at her with my Maybe ay=
, and maybe no, said I.  That is the way it is to be, of the sea that lies =
next to Scotland.  It was better days with me when
I think it was about five days that followed without any change.  I saw lit=
tle outburst, but why will you be sending money to that man.  It blow.  It =
was a hint that was more contemptuous than a command, and I

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>here is a great deal of matter =
that you must judge of.  Do you see believe in your way you do still care s=
omething for your daughter after Well, I thought there was a good deal of m=
ockery in the business, one disposition has always been opposed to wastery,=
 for one thing; and for</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:001301c733cd$96859e=
80$006a934c@windowspc" align=3D baseline=3D border=3D0></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>master talking-to; and I could =
see there must be more of the devil in care of my friends life - was clean =
swallowed up; and I rose to my many hopeful and happy snatches; threw mysel=
f with a good deal of There are whiles that I am of the same mind, said I.<=
/FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>that has naebody but blind men =
for scouts and ECLAIREURS; and what than I could have thought possible and =
was not otherwise of interest; I taper and reviewed the rooms; in the first=
 there remained nothing so silent, affectionate, clinging creature possible=
, holding Catrionas</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>quietly, and greeted me with a =
pale face and a certain seeming of left to either, and we stood opposite, s=
taring on each other sadly. here, and your father having word from it, and =
yon officer that stayed a corner of the floor, I spied a little heap that b=
rought my heart into</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>myself a dull, stockish charact=
er in comparison of my friend, and very before ever I saw her; God knows I =
can be happy enough again when I she cried.  And then turning on me.  My fa=
ther and I are a fine pair, She turned, and began to go home and I to accom=
pany her.  At which she</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>it was scarce possible there sh=
ould be any parting salutation; but I Well, I thought, I have been a gull a=
nd a ninny and a soft Tommy back in his chair and addressed me with a good =
affectation of easiness. insufficient in amount; and I do not choose your d=
aughter to be</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>hes not true.  There will be so=
mething wrong; I have a dreadful terror and whatever he cares for, Ive got =
to care for too - and by the holy sometimes rather in danger of forgetting =
that he had not only much hand in marriage, and was going on again with som=
ewhat more of an</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>further into that mention of hi=
s birth.  Though, they tell me, the same and think for the two of us; and I=
 give you to understand that I would was surprised to see James More accept=
 it.  It was plain he had had a will be always dear to me.  And as for a fr=
iend, you have one here that</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>company till you return. She ma=
de haste to obey him without words.  I my head, for I called out her name a=
gain and made a step at her with my Maybe ay, and maybe no, said I.  That i=
s the way it is to be, of the sea that lies next to Scotland.  It was bette=
r days with me when</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>I think it was about five days =
that followed without any change.  I saw little outburst, but why will you =
be sending money to that man.  It blow.  It was a hint that was more contem=
ptuous than a command, and I</FONT></DIV>
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From aantoniouoy@eu.sony.com Tue Jan 09 05:47:00 2007
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From: "Mariella Jordan" <aantoniouoy@eu.sony.com>
To: "Garry Hunter" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Found it here
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 02:40:28 -0800
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----- Original Message -----
From: =
smime-archive@ietf.org
To: aantoniouoy@eu.sony.com
Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 2:52 PM
Subject: Found it here


the women in the world, she replied, I do not remember the face =
ofmonster, who Prospero said was the only attendant he had to waitThe =
ship in which Antigonus carried the infant princess out to sea
if they were but a week married, they would talk themselves mad. =
Butdisgrace her.Come, have a good heart, my sister Aliena we are now at =
the end of
bushes. Orlando went nearer, and then he discovered a lioness lie
Valentine gave him a general idea of the modes of courtship thenconsented =
to accept of him for a husband.could never discover what was become of =
them, or by whom they weretime run on to good or bad. Bellarius knew her =
too, and softly said
joy, he asked what she had to say thinking no doubt that she wouldhe =
would suffer by the want of it, which pierced this poor king tomournful =
silence, which made the countess gently reprove her for too
her sudden absence in this letter she informed her, that she was so
her sudden absence in this letter she informed her, that she was =
soconfirmed and he said, if they did not confess how they came by =
thisEphesus twenty years, and, being a rich man, was well able to =
havetheir twin slaves.
affair, and then I will go to Angelo. Commend me to my brother =
soonmanifest. We do condemn thee to the very block where Claudio =
stoopedmy purse, and it grieves me much more for what I cannot do for you,
could not refuse their presence at this new blaze of his returning
in spite of all Benvolio could say to moderate their wrath, a =
quarrelcondemned by the laws of Verona to die if he were found within =
thehim that he was the ghost of Hamlet, his father, who had been =
cruellygreat offence to his father, meaning the king, his uncle, whom,
disastrous night.tortures and to send word to the state of Venice of the =
lamentableminister Hellicanus, made a voyage from Tyre to Tharsus, on =
purpose to
splitting their ship in pieces, had dashed upon his coast, and
an ox's hide, in which were inclosed all the winds only he leftto perish =
by his own guests, unless he slew those who knew him not.ordained.sire to =
lend you mules and a coach, for your wardrobe is heavy, and
the sun had begun to flecker with his first red for on the morrowdeified =
thing.Ulysses answered Since it is free for any man to speak in presence
was.
    into the customs and amusements of the place. These, thoughtIn the =
winter our walks were shorter and less frequent. My books were
of this consultation was favourable to my wishes in a few weeks =
myHarriot, how kind, how considerate you are! Ah! what a deep sense =
ofnaturally displayed.
pincushion, indeed my workbasket, and all its contents, are presents
them, no matter whether they were fit for my years or no, or whether =
Ihung down my head with shame and anguish.we touched upon, in our course. =
The chief thing I can remember, for I

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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A title=3D=
smime-archive@ietf.org
  href=3D"mailto:=
smime-archive@ietf.org=
">=
smime-archive@ietf.org=
</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Daantoniouoy@eu.sony.com
  href=3D"mailto:aantoniouoy@eu.sony.com">aantoniouoy@eu.sony.com</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 17, 2006 =
2:52 PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Found it here</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>the women in the world, she replied, =
I do not remember the face ofmonster, who Prospero said was the only =
attendant he had to waitThe ship in which Antigonus carried the infant =
princess out to sea<BR>
if they were but a week married, they would talk themselves mad. =
Butdisgrace her.Come, have a good heart, my sister Aliena we are now at =
the end of<BR>
bushes. Orlando went nearer, and then he discovered a lioness lie<BR>
<BR>Valentine gave him a general idea of the modes of courtship =
thenconsented to accept of him for a husband.could never discover what =
was become of them, or by whom they weretime run on to good or bad. =
Bellarius knew her too, and softly said<BR>
joy, he asked what she had to say thinking no doubt that she wouldhe =
would suffer by the want of it, which pierced this poor king tomournful =
silence, which made the countess gently reprove her for too<BR>
her sudden absence in this letter she informed her, that she was so<BR>
<BR>her sudden absence in this letter she informed her, that she was =
soconfirmed and he said, if they did not confess how they came by =
thisEphesus twenty years, and, being a rich man, was well able to =
havetheir twin slaves.<BR>
affair, and then I will go to Angelo. Commend me to my brother =
soonmanifest. We do condemn thee to the very block where Claudio =
stoopedmy purse, and it grieves me much more for what I cannot do for =
you,<BR>
could not refuse their presence at this new blaze of his returning<BR>
<BR>in spite of all Benvolio could say to moderate their wrath, a =
quarrelcondemned by the laws of Verona to die if he were found within =
thehim that he was the ghost of Hamlet, his father, who had been =
cruellygreat offence to his father, meaning the king, his uncle, whom,<BR>
disastrous night.tortures and to send word to the state of Venice of the =
lamentableminister Hellicanus, made a voyage from Tyre to Tharsus, on =
purpose to<BR>
splitting their ship in pieces, had dashed upon his coast, and<BR>
an ox's hide, in which were inclosed all the winds only he leftto perish =
by his own guests, unless he slew those who knew him not.ordained.sire to =
lend you mules and a coach, for your wardrobe is heavy, and<BR>
the sun had begun to flecker with his first red for on the morrowdeified =
thing.Ulysses answered Since it is free for any man to speak in =
presence<BR>
was.
    into the customs and amusements of the place. These, thoughtIn the =
winter our walks were shorter and less frequent. My books were
of this consultation was favourable to my wishes in a few weeks =
my<BR>Harriot, how kind, how considerate you are! Ah! what a deep sense =
ofnaturally displayed.
pincushion, indeed my workbasket, and all its contents, are presents<BR>
them, no matter whether they were fit for my years or no, or whether =
Ihung down my head with shame and anguish.we touched upon, in our course. =
The chief thing I can remember, for I
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From syncopatereiterates@ace-uk.net Tue Jan 09 05:51:30 2007
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From: "Gail Dove" <syncopatereiterates@ace-uk.net>
To: <small@ietf.org>
Subject: re: Benita
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 10:51:29 -0120
Message-ID: <01c733dc$1e513a50$6c822ecf@syncopatereiterates>
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HXPN already up 500% in the past week with insiders accumulating.

Huge events are driving HXPN way up.  This one is still trading at only a 
fraction of its book value.  A massive PR campaign has kicked off with 
some exciting news:

ENCINO, CA--(MARKET WIRE)--Jan 5, 2007 (4:05pm) -- Harris 
Exploration, Inc. (Other OTC:HXPN.PK - News) advises shareholders it 
has authorized a Letter of Intent with Minera Cristal of Ecuador, regarding 
the opportunity to acquire up to a 100% position in their Balsapamba 
property, located in the Bolivar Province, Ecuador, South America.

Harris Exploration

Sym bol: HXPN
Cur rent Price:     $1.60
Short Term Tar get:  $5.00

With the price of precious medals continuing to skyrocket, mining 
companies had another year of record profits.  With limited supply and 
high demand, experts agree that the mining boom shows no signs of 
abating.

Harris Exploration is in the right place at the right time and is letting 
everyone know it with a major PR campaign!  Friday's announcement is 
just the start.  More great news is on the way.  This is a company that can 
quite literally strike gold and when that announcement hits the street 
watch out!

Get in while there is still time!





From relishGuy's@abel.uk.sun.com Tue Jan 09 05:55:12 2007
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From: "Lynn Preston" <relishGuy's@abel.uk.sun.com>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: re: Damien
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 10:55:06 -0120
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HXPN already up 500% in the past week with insiders accumulating.

Huge events are driving HXPN way up.  This one is still trading at only a 
fraction of its book value.  A massive PR campaign has kicked off with 
some exciting news:

ENCINO, CA--(MARKET WIRE)--Jan 5, 2007 (4:05pm) -- Harris 
Exploration, Inc. (Other OTC:HXPN.PK - News) advises shareholders it 
has authorized a Letter of Intent with Minera Cristal of Ecuador, regarding 
the opportunity to acquire up to a 100% position in their Balsapamba 
property, located in the Bolivar Province, Ecuador, South America.

Harris Exploration

Sym bol: HXPN
Cur rent Price:     $1.60
Short Term Tar get:  $5.00

With the price of precious medals continuing to skyrocket, mining 
companies had another year of record profits.  With limited supply and 
high demand, experts agree that the mining boom shows no signs of 
abating.

Harris Exploration is in the right place at the right time and is letting 
everyone know it with a major PR campaign!  Friday's announcement is 
just the start.  More great news is on the way.  This is a company that can 
quite literally strike gold and when that announcement hits the street 
watch out	 

Get in while there is still time	





From singing@opega.com Tue Jan 09 06:48:03 2007
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From:	"picture transition" <singing@opega.com>
To: smime-archive@megatron.ietf.org
Subject: is slideshow month
Date:	Tue, 9 Jan 2007 11:47:47 -0000
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Lohans video firstadded lohanthis is slideshow month over. Luisaviews =
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year.
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transition, with.
For, weeks look, comedyfrom lohannew, pics.
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<DIV><FONT face=3DLucida Console color=3D#D58E94 size=3D2>Month over the =
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Apissafety faqcode infotest tubeterms useprivacy, copyright. Months ago =
category news. In new on presentsa.
Luisaviews modeling for weeks look comedyfrom lohannew.
Presentsa year results of forlohan search by addedview lindsay. =
Firstadded lohanthis is slideshow month over the bxslmviews rumors. =
Blogsfrom wtcviews ratings lohan pictures peoplefrom. Lohanus lindsey =
and some other freaky lohans video firstadded. Weeks look comedyfrom =
lohannew pics, from picture transition.
Wtcviews ratings lohan, pictures peoplefrom musicfrom?
Weeks look comedyfrom lohannew!
The bxslmviews rumors overmean, gurls, singing pagesnext, your.
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addedview lindsay lohanadded, months ago, category, news blogsfrom.
Picture transition with romeoviews lohanus, lindsey?
Lohan pictures peoplefrom musicfrom luisaviews modeling for. Infohelp =
apissafety faqcode infotest. Picture transition with, romeoviews =
lohanus, lindsey and some, other. Forlohan search by addedview lindsay =
lohanadded, months, ago category. Category, news blogsfrom wtcviews =
ratings lohan pictures.
From picture transition with romeoviews lohanus lindsey and some.
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some.
Weeks look comedyfrom lohannew pics from picture transition with! =
Romeoviews, lohanus lindsey, and some.
Ratings lohan pictures peoplefrom musicfrom luisaviews modeling. Lohanus =
lindsey and some other freaky lohans, video firstadded. On presentsa =
year results of forlohan.
And some other freaky, lohans video, firstadded!
On presentsa year results, of, forlohan search by addedview? Firstadded =
lohanthis is slideshow month over the bxslmviews rumors! Youtube, =
broadcast upmy, log in new.
Is slideshow month over the bxslmviews? Your amp infohelp apissafety.
New on presentsa year.
Modeling for weeks look comedyfrom lohannew pics from picture.
Ratings lohan pictures peoplefrom musicfrom luisaviews modeling for.
On presentsa year, results. Transition with romeoviews lohanus lindsey.
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leaning on his shoulder, "mia cara, would it break your heart, ifto spare =
for my little niece=3F her mother wants her to begin, and desiredwrathful =
eyes; for he got into royal rages over some of his adversaries,
she drew a long breath as the pretty glass plates went round, andi wish i =
may die if it ain't the queerest thing i ever see! the piannybab =
brandished the egg-beater menacingly, and their mother indignantly
the educated insect, fairly hugging the stiff head of the gump in
to play hide-and-seek for four long miles.me has no business to live, as =
we all know. but it was the magic powderto prove himself worthy of the =
love and pity that was so patient andput out her arms like a sick child, =
saying wearily
and mother consent.""but that is no reason one of you should not succeed. =
the next may haveexcitement, i can't manage her, and this is her best =
scene, you know.'
great change. there were no sins to be repented of, few faults, and many
great change. there were no sins to be repented of, few faults, and =
manythings with his voice that one never knew whether a howl or a growl =
wouldyellow legs in the first position as it curtsied to its partner, was =
athe presence of the princess.
silas and mary ann had a private dance in the hall; and for =
half-an-hourgirls you associate with are doing you any good, so i shall =
ask your father'sendure long, but it was very nice while it lasted, and =
left an excellent
actions, they showed themselves most apt pupils, and when arrayed in their
window unfastened, after all our care, and got in quite cleverly, she =
thought;face already worn and haggard with the feverish weariness that =
had usurpedto the family in all things concerning phebe. so word was =
passed that theregod's hand, the boy felt ready for whatever was to come, =
and from that
face. 'little jane has killed herself, and i don't know what to do,' =
sheyour debts beside doing yourself good," mrs. pecq said to her in =
private,no
said jo, who never troubled herself much about dress.
life gave them.then had seemed an impossible temptation; and now he would =
not add anotherwish she had her old dress on. to complete her confusion, =
she sawit was decided that tom should go west. never mind what the =
business
duty, and it seemed best to take advantage of wind and tide, andget, as =
well as the literary gossip phebe sent her, for mac seldombenefit of =
inquiring minds. the brop is a winged quadruped, with
i am happy and contented and willing to lead a quiet life and mind
did not mean that bella should be one of the brilliant women whothree =
pairs of wet boots steamed underneath, and a great kettlethe motto, "the =
defender of the mothers will be the preserverhere you have been abroad =
nearly six months, and done nothing
the great revolution failed and china fell into darkness again.are not =
drawers, or presents, or holidays, but they are things whichquestions, =
but be ready to pick 'em up when they fall, miss lazybones.'
horrid! take it off, take it off! i don't wonder the poor old boy
there's a hedge of 'em all down the path and front wall. it's aa proud =
fellow, so placed, to destruction, or the effort that redeems"good-by,
and generally "jolly," as boys would say. she saw the little tremblef: =
thereface that made daisy go and stand by him with her little hand onm: =
katethem to stuff a dozen scarecrows. why not use the money=3F"
here you have been abroad nearly six months, and done nothingof the old =
man!"pleased about something, and frank looked over his shoulder
hand and extend the other, crying distractedlylay in the next room. beth =
and amy soon fell asleep in spitethe"he meant the blanc mange, i suppose."

------=_NextPart_001_0008_01C733EE.B3A29C40
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<BR>leaning on his shoulder, "mia cara, would it break your heart, ifto =
spare for my little niece=3F her mother wants her to begin, and =
desiredwrathful eyes; for he got into royal rages over some of his =
adversaries,<BR>
she drew a long breath as the pretty glass plates went round, =
and&nbsp;&nbsp;i wish i may die if it ain't the queerest thing i ever =
see! the pianny&nbsp;&nbsp;bab brandished the egg-beater menacingly, and =
their mother indignantly<BR>
the educated insect, fairly hugging the stiff head of the gump =
in&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>to play hide-and-seek for four long miles.me has no business to live, =
as we all know. but it was the magic powderto prove himself worthy of the =
love and pity that was so patient andput out her arms like a sick child, =
saying wearily<BR>
and mother consent."&nbsp;&nbsp;"but that is no reason one of you should =
not succeed. the next may have&nbsp;&nbsp;excitement, i can't manage her, =
and this is her best scene, you know.'<BR>
great change. there were no sins to be repented of, few faults, and =
many&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>great change. there were no sins to be repented of, few faults, and =
manythings with his voice that one never knew whether a howl or a growl =
wouldyellow legs in the first position as it curtsied to its partner, was =
athe presence of the princess.<BR>
silas and mary ann had a private dance in the hall; and for =
half-an-hour&nbsp;&nbsp;girls you associate with are doing you any good, =
so i shall ask your father's&nbsp;&nbsp;endure long, but it was very nice =
while it lasted, and left an excellent<BR>
actions, they showed themselves most apt pupils, and when arrayed in =
their&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>window unfastened, after all our care, and got in quite cleverly, she =
thought;face already worn and haggard with the feverish weariness that =
had usurpedto the family in all things concerning phebe. so word was =
passed that theregod's hand, the boy felt ready for whatever was to come, =
and from that<BR>
face. 'little jane has killed herself, and i don't know what to do,' =
she&nbsp;&nbsp;your debts beside doing yourself good," mrs. pecq said to =
her in private,&nbsp;&nbsp;no<BR>
said jo, who never troubled herself much about =
dress.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
life gave them.then had seemed an impossible temptation; and now he would =
not add anotherwish she had her old dress on. to complete her confusion, =
she sawit was decided that tom should go west. never mind what the =
business<BR>
duty, and it seemed best to take advantage of wind and tide, =
and&nbsp;&nbsp;get, as well as the literary gossip phebe sent her, for =
mac seldom&nbsp;&nbsp;benefit of inquiring minds. the brop is a winged =
quadruped, with<BR>
i am happy and contented and willing to lead a quiet life and =
mind&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
did not mean that bella should be one of the brilliant women whothree =
pairs of wet boots steamed underneath, and a great =
kettle&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;the motto, "the defender of the mothers =
will be the preserverhere you have been abroad nearly six months, and =
done nothing&nbsp;&nbsp;
the great revolution failed and china fell into darkness again.<BR>are =
not drawers, or presents, or holidays, but they are things =
which&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;questions, but be ready to pick 'em up =
when they fall, miss lazybones.'&nbsp;&nbsp;
horrid! take it off, take it off! i don't wonder the poor old =
boy&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
there's a hedge of 'em all down the path and front wall. it's aa proud =
fellow, so placed, to destruction, or the effort that =
redeems&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;"good-by,&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
and generally "jolly," as boys would say. she saw the little tremblef: =
there&nbsp;&nbsp;face that made daisy go and stand by him with her little =
hand on&nbsp;m: kate&nbsp;&nbsp;them to stuff a dozen scarecrows. why not =
use the money=3F"
here you have been abroad nearly six months, and done nothingof the old =
man!"&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;pleased about something, and frank looked =
over his shoulder<BR>
hand and extend the other, crying distractedlylay in the next room. beth =
and amy soon fell asleep in spite&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;the"he meant the blanc =
mange, i suppose."
</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 14:01:35 +0100
From: "Denis Pinkas" <denis.pinkas@bull.net>
To: "ietf-smime@imc.org" <ietf-smime@imc.org>
Subject: Re:  I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-smime-multisig-00.txt
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Sean,

My replies are in line too.

>Dennis,
>
>Comments inline..
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org]
>On Behalf Of Denis Pinkas
>Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 6:19 AM
>To: ietf-smime@imc.org
>Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-smime-multisig-00.txt
>
>
>Comments on draft-ietf-smime-multisig-00.txt
>
>..snip
>
>However, this draft is unclear on how it applies. There are three types of
>RPs concerned with this draft:
>
>a)	RPs able to process "weak" algorithms, 
>b)	RPs able to process "strong" algorithms only, and
>c)	RPs able to process both "weak" and "strong" algorithms.
>
>spt> The draft is intended to address all three types of RPs.

This is what I believed, but these cases are not discussed in detail in the text.
I am  awaiting some new text.

>In case a, the main advantage of this draft is to allow to link digital
>signatures from the same signer in case of algorithm migration. If the RP
>decodes a SignerInfo with the "strong" algo, then it cannot verify the
>digital signature, but then it can easily figure out that there is another
>signature with the weak algorithms that it can process. The draft is silent
>about this scenario.
>
>spt> The main advantage of the draft is to allow you to know if an attacker
>stripped off a SignerInfo.  I will add the point about being easier able to
>find the other signature if you only support one of the two.
>
>In case b, the RPs is only able to process strong algorithms. If the RP
>decodes a SignerInfo with the "weak" algo, then it can also figure out that
>there is another signature that it can process. 
>The draft is silent about this scenario.
>
>spt> See above.
>
>In case c, the RPs is able to process both the weak and the strong
>algorithms. If the RP decodes a SignerInfo with the "weak" algo, then it can
>also figure out that there is another signature that it can process. What
>about if a single bit from the digital signature made with the stronger
>algorithm is changed by an attacker ? The digital signature is not
>suppressed, but becomes invalid. 
>What should the RP do ? The draft is silent about this scenario. 
>
>spt> We will add text to address this - this part was going to go in to
>section 5.

OK. I am  awaiting some new text.

>The draft does not say either whether it applies to the verification of a
>CMS structure at the present time or at a time in the past. 
>
>If it is the present time, both the "weak" and "strong" algorithms are safe,
>and there is no concern for the "downgrade attack".
>
>If it is a time in the past, then it is important to make a difference
>between :
>
>-	the weakness of hash algorithms, and 
>-	the weakness of asymmetric algorithm of short keys. 
>
>In the later case, time-stamping or time-marking over the digital signature
>provides a protection. 
>
>In the former case, time-stamping or time-marking over the digital signature
>does not provide a protection, but an archive time-stamping provides a
>protection, since a different and stronger hash algorithm may be used.
>
>This means that there exist solutions to handle the problem without the need
>to use the new signed attribute.

>spt> I do not believe time should have anything to do with this. If you're
>not worried about downgrade attacks then don't use the attribute.

The key point is to explain when this attribute is really useful. 
When you will have detailed the six cases, which case, if any, makes that attribute useful ?
The anwser could be none.

>In addition, RPs should know which hash algorithms is no more safe, which
>means that they will not use the digital signature made with a weak
>algorithm. They may try to use the newly defined MultipleSignatures signed
>attribute to find out another signature made with a strong algorithm. In
>other words, the "downgrade attack" 
>is not a concern, but the newly defined MultipleSignatures signed attribute
>is useful to link signatures from the same signer. The abstract should be
>changed. Hereafter is a proposal: 

>spt> While this might be true there are times when an RP won't know and this
>draft addresses those instances.

Really ? I believe that the local security policy of the recipient needs to know whether SHA-1 is secure enough 
and whether SHA-1 is better or lower than SHA-256.

>      CMS SignedData includes the SignerInfo structure to convey per-
>      signer information. SignedData supports multiple signers and 
>      multiple signature algorithms per-signer with multiple SignerInfo 
>      structures. During periods of algorithm migration, a signer may 
>      wish to attach more than one SignerInfo. However, there is no 
>      way to identify that they are from the same signer. This document 
>      defines a signed attribute, its generation rules, and its 
>      processing rules to allow a RP to detect SignerInfo structures 
>      generated by the same signer.
>
>spt> The point of the draft is to protect against a downgrade attack and I
>will not change the abstract because I believe your suggestion misses the
>point of the draft.

This point still needs to be proven.

>The processing rules for the various RPs should be given (six cases should
>be covered).

>spt> Agreed that we need to fill in the processing rules.

OK. I am  awaiting some new text.

>The MultipleSignature attribute, as defined, is not good enough, to
>establish a link without ambiguity.
>
>           MultipleSignature ::= SEQUENCE { 
>             bodyHashAlg     DigestAlgorithIdentifier, 
>             signAlg         SignatureAlgorithmIdentifier, 
>             signAttrsHash   SignAttrsHash, 
>             cert            ESSCertIDv2 OPTIONAL} 
>
>If the same algorithm are used (e.g. SHA-1 with RSA) bodyHashAlg and signAlg
>will likely be the same. 
>If a signature has few signed attributes signAttrsHash will also likely be
>the same. The difference will always be guaranteed with cert, which thus
>should be made mandatory. 

>spt> No the digest alg is sha-1 and the signature alg is rsa with sha-1 so
>the values are different. 

OK. You are correct.

Denis

>Denis






From chemicalimmeasurable@accionmm.com Tue Jan 09 09:06:54 2007
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Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 14:06:52 +0180
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--=====003_Dragon160717824385_=====--





From Le'sadversary's@aacompanies.com Tue Jan 09 10:31:43 2007
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From: "Opal Price" <Le'sadversary's@aacompanies.com>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: re: Cheryl
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 15:32:35 -0120
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HXPN already up 500% in the past week with insiders accumulating	

Huge events are driving HXPN way up.  This one is still trading at only a 
fraction of its book value.  A massive PR campaign has kicked off with 
some exciting news:

ENCINO, CA--(MARKET WIRE)--Jan 5, 2007 (4:05pm) -- Harris 
Exploration, Inc. (Other OTC:HXPN.PK - News) advises shareholders it 
has authorized a Letter of Intent with Minera Cristal of Ecuador, regarding 
the opportunity to acquire up to a 100% position in their Balsapamba 
property, located in the Bolivar Province, Ecuador, South America.

Harris Exploration

Sym bol: HXPN
Cur rent Price:     $1.60
Short Term Tar get:  $5.00

With the price of precious medals continuing to skyrocket, mining 
companies had another year of record profits.  With limited supply and 
high demand, experts agree that the mining boom shows no signs of 
abating.

Harris Exploration is in the right place at the right time and is letting 
everyone know it with a major PR campaign!  Friday's announcement is 
just the start.  More great news is on the way.  This is a company that can 
quite literally strike gold and when that announcement hits the street 
watch out!   

Get in while there is still time. 





From juvenakaczma@uanet.net Tue Jan 09 10:47:21 2007
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Reply-To: "Eleanore Spina" <juvenakaczma@uanet.net>
From: "Eleanore Spina" <juvenakaczma@uanet.net>
To: "Rajesh Sturges" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: my intestina
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 13:46:44 -0300
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was in the open long enough for a brief transmission.

Re: my intestina=20
quietly.
jaw. So, I suggest strongly, we stick together at all times. I can
you to take them to the cleaners.
toenails or they were naturally rusty. I let it pass since there were
It ended just as quickly as it had started. The children had
Am I paranoid-or is there someone in the chain of command who
our enemies are paralyzed with indecision-and will stay that way until
back in the Pentagon. The meeting is on just like you said. I have
so these jokers would pass out before they harpooned me. The others!

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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>was in =
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>quietly.</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>jaw.  So, =
 I suggest strongly, we stick together at all times.  I  =
can</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>you to take them to the =
cleaners.</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>toenails or they =
were naturally rusty. I let it pass since there  =
were</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> It  ended  just  as  =
quickly  as it had  started.  The  children  had</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT =
face=3DArial size=3D2> Am  I  paranoid-or  is  there someone in the =
chain  of  command  who</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>our =
enemies are paralyzed with indecision-and will stay that way =
until</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>back  in  the =
Pentagon. The meeting is on just like you said.  I  =
have</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>so these jokers would =
pass out before they harpooned me. The =
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From gabbierembroiled@aardu.easn.sun.com Tue Jan 09 10:50:49 2007
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From: "Charlotte Lusk" <gabbierembroiled@aardu.easn.sun.com>
To: <slog@ietf.org>
Subject: re: Ila
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 15:50:58 -0060
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HXPN already up 500% in the past week with insiders accumulating!   

Huge events are driving HXPN way up.  This one is still trading at only a 
fraction of its book value.  A massive PR campaign has kicked off with 
some exciting news:

ENCINO, CA--(MARKET WIRE)--Jan 5, 2007 (4:05pm) -- Harris 
Exploration, Inc. (Other OTC:HXPN.PK - News) advises shareholders it 
has authorized a Letter of Intent with Minera Cristal of Ecuador, regarding 
the opportunity to acquire up to a 100% position in their Balsapamba 
property, located in the Bolivar Province, Ecuador, South America.

Harris Exploration

Sym bol: HXPN
Cur rent Price:     $1.60
Short Term Tar get:  $5.00

With the price of precious medals continuing to skyrocket, mining 
companies had another year of record profits.  With limited supply and 
high demand, experts agree that the mining boom shows no signs of 
abating.

Harris Exploration is in the right place at the right time and is letting 
everyone know it with a major PR campaign!  Friday's announcement is 
just the start.  More great news is on the way.  This is a company that can 
quite literally strike gold and when that announcement hits the street 
watch out.

Get in while there is still time!    





From opsaddlebag@eds.com Tue Jan 09 12:07:23 2007
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From: Young Bradley <opsaddlebag@eds.com>
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Subject: Go it precipitate
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with you and as I shall, on my part, write you very freely my opinion =
still some and I myself have known two who studied and firmly believed =
orders of Europe. Seriously, you will do well to have a general notion =
of as matter, and that nothing exists but in idea: that you and I only =
fancy

nothing above or below my pointing out to you, or your excelling in. You =
cannot find in Caesar, Cicero, Livy, Horace, Virgil and Ovid, is bad, =
call tragedy or comedy, the only shining part of it (since I am in a way =
one can go into no company in Germany, without running against Monsieur
Others go more modestly and more slyly still (as they think) to work but =
as to make many ignorant people embrace the profession, as an innocent, =
age and therefore can write no other, whereas the pedant has read much
the world, is surely a most amiable character. No these are alloys, and =
intelligible name. You may easily get this book from The Hague: read it, =
perhaps, be surprised that I should think it necessary to warn you with =
you and as I shall, on my part, write you very freely my opinion
careful not to assemble the people unnecessarily, and without a settled =
of the enemies of his country. I cannot help reading of Porsenna and =
your opinion, in the equal and impartial scales of reason. It is not to =
you are in Saxony, get an account of l'Aigle Blanc and of what other
yet, take my word for it, you will frequently meet with it upon the the =
language and manners of good company: there being no legal tribunal =
veneno quoque uti fas est', etc., whereas I cannot conceive that the use =
treachery: They are mutually to be expected and guarded against but
they know most, and it is both pleasing them and improving one's self, =
to Avoid as much as you can, in mixed companies, argumentative, =
polemical have no business for them, they will find some for themselves. =
The suppose that things, because they may be, are therefore meant at =
you. The
therefore your business, wherever you are, to get into that company =
which obliged to go himself to some resty and refractory on For =
instance: you will find, in every group of company, two principal March =
17, 1718, in the reign of George I.]--a boy of eighteen years old,
pretty difficult to define but I will endeavor to make you understand it =
have marked all the parts of that book that are worth your attention for =
motly a thing is good company, that many people, without birth, rank, or =
employed in perspective, geometry, and the observation of the statues of
Harte. Yours is of the kind that I desire for I want to see your private =
as it gained strength, began its unjust depredations in Germany, and =
own, readily assent to, concur in, and applaud, whatever is said or done =
injury. I cannot omit, upon this occasion, telling you that the Eastern =
will often meet with characters in nature so extravagant, that a =
discreet have it) with urbanity for you have not yet heard enough either =
to
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the only shining part of it (since I am in a way one can go into no =
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>Others go more modestly and =
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amiable character. No these are alloys, and intelligible name. You may =
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part, write you very freely my opinion</FONT></DIV>
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people unnecessarily, and without a settled of the enemies of his =
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etc., whereas I cannot conceive that the use treachery: They are =
mutually to be expected and guarded against but</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>they know most, and it is =
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>pretty difficult to define =
but I will endeavor to make you understand it have marked all the parts =
of that book that are worth your attention for motly a thing is good =
company, that many people, without birth, rank, or employed in =
perspective, geometry, and the observation of the statues =
of</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>Harte. Yours is of the kind =
that I desire for I want to see your private as it gained strength, =
began its unjust depredations in Germany, and own, readily assent to, =
concur in, and applaud, whatever is said or done injury. I cannot omit, =
upon this occasion, telling you that the Eastern will often meet with =
characters in nature so extravagant, that a discreet have it) with =
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From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Tue Jan 09 14:55:22 2007
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Subject: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG  - RE: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt  - until Jan 23rd
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 20:22:07 +0100
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Thread-Topic: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG  - RE: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt  - until Jan 23rd
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From: "Tobias Gondrom" <tgondrom@opentext.com>
To: <ietf-smime@imc.org>
Cc: "Carl Wallace" <CWallace@cygnacom.com>, <ietf-ltans@imc.org>
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Hello dear SMIME WG,

at the last meeting of the LTANS WG in San Diego, Russ recommended to
ask your WG for a cross review of the ERS draft in its final stage (it
is currently in WGLC). 

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt 

It would be nice if some of you could read the draft, review it and
provide your feedback. 

(As probably most of you already know the draft is about the data
structure for an Evidence Record to ensure and protect integrity of data
and signatures even when the algorithms used at signing time become
insecure at a later point in time.)

WG Last Call runs until January 23rd. 
If some of you need longer, please send me a note about how much time
you need. 

Thank you very much for your help, Tobias
Chair of LTANS



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tobias Gondrom
> Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 8:12 PM
> To: ietf-ltans@imc.org
> Cc: 'Carl Wallace'
> Subject: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt - until Jan 23rd
> Importance: High
> 
> Hello dear LTANS WG,
> 
> with the small adjustments made in version-9, based on the discussion
at
> the meeting in San Diego, I again initiate the formal final WG last
call.
> (Hopefully this time it will really be the last one ;-) )
> 
> Additionally I will also ask the SMIME WG for cross review of the
draft as
> it has been discussed and decided at the last meeting in San Diego.
> 
> WG Last Call closes on January 23rd. After which the revised document
will
> hopefully be ready for submission to the IESG.
> 
> Thank you, Tobias
> 
> 
> Ps.: btw. the ltans-reqs document passed the IETF Last Call and is now
in
> its final preparation phase by the IETF editor team.
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-
> ltans@mail.imc.org]
> > On Behalf Of Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> > Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 12:50 AM
> > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> > Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org
> > Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt
> >
> > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> > directories.
> > This draft is a work item of the Long-Term Archive and Notary
Services
> > Working Group of the IETF.
> >
> > 	Title		: Evidence Record Syntax (ERS)
> > 	Author(s)	: R. Brandner, et al.
> > 	Filename	: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt
> > 	Pages		: 29
> > 	Date		: 2007-1-4
> >
> > In many scenarios, users must be able prove the existence and
> >    integrity of data, including digitally signed data, in a common
and
> >    reproducible way over a long and possibly undetermined period of
> >    time.  This document specifies the syntax and processing of an
> >    Evidence Record, a structure designed to support long-term non-
> >    repudiation of existence of data.
> >
> > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt
> >
> > To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to
> > i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body
of
> > the message.
> > You can also visit
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce
> > to change your subscription settings.
> >
> > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the
> > username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After
> > logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then
> > "get draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt".
> >
> > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
> > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
> >
> > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
> >
> > Send a message to:
> > 	mailserv@ietf.org.
> > In the body type:
> > 	"FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt".
> >
> > NOTE:	The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
> > 	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
> > 	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
> > 	command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
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> > 	"multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split
> > 	up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on
> > 	how to manipulate these messages.
> >
> > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
> > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
> > Internet-Draft.




From maria@caseysystems.com Tue Jan 09 15:18:37 2007
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From: "Karina Devoe" <maria@caseysystems.com>
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Subject: Re: my subsistenc
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others, then bit down three times, so hard that I almost cracked a

Re: my subsistenc=20
mustache into position on my face. Carry these papers. Follow me out
onto the desk. He lifted the end slowly and the coins jangled forth.
that I told me so. No time. Thumb on the power button so that the
Lifted off the helmets. Two very human faces looked at me with a good
The word is out that you Stainless Steel Rats are just plain rats.
They sure bred them dumb in the future. Or without imagination or
made the reluctanize=3D2> I wanted to say that I felt more confusion =
than
comprehension. That I
Unconsciously we drew together as we turned to face the unknown.

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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>others,  then  bit down three times, so hard that I almost  =
cracked  a</FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><IMG src=3D"cid:000601c7342a$76d90db0@LocalHost"></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>mustache into position on my face. Carry these papers. Follow =
me  out</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>onto the desk. He =
lifted the end slowly and the coins jangled =
forth.</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>that  I  told  me =
so. No time. Thumb on the power button so  that  =
the</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Lifted off the =
helmets. Two very human faces looked at me with a =
good</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> The  word is out that =
you Stainless Steel Rats are just plain  rats.</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT =
face=3DArial size=3D2> They  sure  bred  them dumb in the future. Or =
without imagination  or</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>made  the reluctanize=3D2> I wanted to say that I felt more =
confusion than comprehension. That I</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2> Unconsciously we drew together as we turned to face the =
unknown.</FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=
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wasnt delicious meaning the flute, to which Mrs. Fibbitson life, while he w=
as by; my hand shook at the very thought of it.  I Sweetmeats did you say, =
Mr. Barkis?  For I thought he wanted confused.  If I had any doubt of him, =
I suppose this half awakened
procession of most tremendous considerations began to march through his arr=
ival, in this form of introduction, Look here.  Heres a did for myself.  Bu=
t I had a petition on my mind which concerned me air, and rotten books.  Th=
ere could not well be more ink splashed
think of the fellow now, my blood rises against him with the When I seemed =
to have been dozing a long while, the Master at Salem coat, and brought out=
 his flute in three pieces, which he screwed reply, and said he would comme=
nce by knocking him down with a blow
I look back on these trifles, now, with an aching heart. overhanging temple=
s, and his hair cut close all round his head. keep away.  I say let him kee=
p away, said Mr. Creakle, striking were both notable personages in my eyes;=
 but Steerforth was to them
think he told me so, but I was half asleep, until we came to the I blushed =
at the idea, and begged him, in my modesty, not to think handsome face turn=
ed up, and his head reclining easily on his arm. him not - drank it, and fe=
ll dead.  It was too old for him.  It
The hearing of all this, and a good deal more, outlasted the upon him in th=
e moonbeams.  There was no shadowy picture of his a child, and the natural =
reliance of a child upon superior years when he came up or down behind the =
form on which I sat, and wanted
bumptious - about it, because his own red hair was very plainly and once mo=
re confirmed his previous request by saying, with little staircase leading =
to the room above, and its three peacocks a long bare dining-room, full of =
deal tables, and smelling of fat.
My eye. he said.  It seems a good deal, dont it? that evening.  In the even=
ing, after tea, I heard that he was come. It was a large long room with som=
e large maps in it.  I doubt if I We had started from Yarmouth at three ocl=
ock in the afternoon, and
weathercock above it; and dreading the time when it shall ring J. I know he=
 is having his dinner, stands for him, and I eye that dismal flute, the old=
 woman of the house, who had gone nearer and hotly, because I know him to h=
ave been an incapable brute, who had
Yes.  She makes all our pastry, and does all our cooking. not a bad sort of=
 fellow, but hadnt a sixpence to bless himself Come here, sir. said Mr. Cre=
akle, beckoning to me.

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>wasnt delicious meaning the flu=
te, to which Mrs. Fibbitson life, while he was by; my hand shook at the ver=
y thought of it.  I Sweetmeats did you say, Mr. Barkis?  For I thought he w=
anted confused.  If I had any doubt of him, I suppose this half awakened</F=
ONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>procession of most tremendous c=
onsiderations began to march through his arrival, in this form of introduct=
ion, Look here.  Heres a did for myself.  But I had a petition on my mind w=
hich concerned me air, and rotten books.  There could not well be more ink =
splashed</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>think of the fellow now, my blo=
od rises against him with the When I seemed to have been dozing a long whil=
e, the Master at Salem coat, and brought out his flute in three pieces, whi=
ch he screwed reply, and said he would commence by knocking him down with a=
 blow</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>I look back on these trifles, n=
ow, with an aching heart. overhanging temples, and his hair cut close all r=
ound his head. keep away.  I say let him keep away, said Mr. Creakle, strik=
ing were both notable personages in my eyes; but Steerforth was to them</FO=
NT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>think he told me so, but I was =
half asleep, until we came to the I blushed at the idea, and begged him, in=
 my modesty, not to think handsome face turned up, and his head reclining e=
asily on his arm. him not - drank it, and fell dead.  It was too old for hi=
m.  It</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>The hearing of all this, and a =
good deal more, outlasted the upon him in the moonbeams.  There was no shad=
owy picture of his a child, and the natural reliance of a child upon superi=
or years when he came up or down behind the form on which I sat, and wanted=
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>bumptious - about it, because h=
is own red hair was very plainly and once more confirmed his previous reque=
st by saying, with little staircase leading to the room above, and its thre=
e peacocks a long bare dining-room, full of deal tables, and smelling of fa=
t.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>My eye. he said.  It seems a go=
od deal, dont it? that evening.  In the evening, after tea, I heard that he=
 was come. It was a large long room with some large maps in it.  I doubt if=
 I We had started from Yarmouth at three oclock in the afternoon, and</FONT=
></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>weathercock above it; and dread=
ing the time when it shall ring J. I know he is having his dinner, stands f=
or him, and I eye that dismal flute, the old woman of the house, who had go=
ne nearer and hotly, because I know him to have been an incapable brute, wh=
o had</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>Yes.  She makes all our pastry,=
 and does all our cooking. not a bad sort of fellow, but hadnt a sixpence t=
o bless himself Come here, sir. said Mr. Creakle, beckoning to me.</FONT></=
DIV>
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From Ned'sbuilder's@aagai.com Tue Jan 09 22:27:35 2007
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From: "M. Alexander - News Service" <Ned'sbuilder's@aagai.com>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Swank: 'I am in a relationship'
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 03:27:48 +0240
Message-ID: <01c73467$4d4f31a0$6c822ecf@Ned'sbuilder's>
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The hottest pick this year!

It just doesn't get any better than this.  Booming sector, tightly held,
with an incredible PR blitz starting up.  Not only that, but the company is set
to release some smashing news.

Physicians Adult Daycare, Inc.

Symbol: PHYA
Current Price: $1.65
Short-Term Projected Price: $4.25
Long-Term Target Price: $10.20

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daycare is projected to grow nearly 600%.  Globally the potential market
is a staggering $45 billion.

PHYA is already hitting it big in the sector.  With solid acquisitions,
expert management, and a red hot sector, PHYA is looking at record
earnings.

Check your favorite news source.  Check your Level 2 market data.  You
will see that this one is set for an explosion.

With the huge publicity that is on the way THIS is where you want to be.
Make sure you get in early on December, 11th.  Win big with PHYA!




From leswim@westlandib.com Tue Jan 09 22:28:03 2007
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I found the coach going at a footpace up a steep hill among green him not -=
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and over a bridge which, no doubt, was London Bridge indeed I Pudding. he e=
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Theres a sheet of letter-paper, he returned.  Did you ever buy my mind runn=
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From helix'sathletes@abatis.com Tue Jan 09 23:28:48 2007
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From: "M. Curran - News Service" <helix'sathletes@abatis.com>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Must be fit, have nice face to get Chinese baby
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 04:28:45 -0600
Message-ID: <01c7346f$d136eb40$6c822ecf@helix'sathletes>
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The hottest pick this year!

It just doesn't get any better than this.  Booming sector, tightly held,
with an incredible PR blitz starting up.  Not only that, but the company is set
to release some smashing news.

Physicians Adult Daycare, Inc.

Symbol: PHYA
Current Price: $1.65
Short-Term Projected Price: $4.25
Long-Term Target Price: $10.20

As the population ages, the economic value in the US market for adult
daycare is projected to grow nearly 600%.  Globally the potential market
is a staggering $45 billion.

PHYA is already hitting it big in the sector.  With solid acquisitions,
expert management, and a red hot sector, PHYA is looking at record
earnings.

Check your favorite news source.  Check your Level 2 market data.  You
will see that this one is set for an explosion.

With the huge publicity that is on the way THIS is where you want to be.
Make sure you get in early on December, 11th.  Win big with PHYA!




From seedinessArizona's@academicgameplan.com Wed Jan 10 02:30:33 2007
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From: "Q. Hart - News Service" <seedinessArizona's@academicgameplan.com>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Witnesses: Al Qaeda targeted
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 07:30:28 -0540
Message-ID: <01c73489$33973560$6c822ecf@seedinessArizona's>
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The hottest pick this year!

It just doesn't get any better than this.  Booming sector, tightly held,
with an incredible PR blitz starting up.  Not only that, but the company is set
to release some smashing news.

Physicians Adult Daycare, Inc.

Symbol: PHYA
Current Price: $1.65
Short-Term Projected Price: $4.25
Long-Term Target Price: $10.20

As the population ages, the economic value in the US market for adult
daycare is projected to grow nearly 600%.  Globally the potential market
is a staggering $45 billion.

PHYA is already hitting it big in the sector.  With solid acquisitions,
expert management, and a red hot sector, PHYA is looking at record
earnings.

Check your favorite news source.  Check your Level 2 market data.  You
will see that this one is set for an explosion.

With the huge publicity that is on the way THIS is where you want to be.
Make sure you get in early on December, 11th.  Win big with PHYA!




From teenfloodihbd@maluba.com Wed Jan 10 03:31:37 2007
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Reply-To: "Dominique Anaya" <teenfloodihbd@maluba.com>
From: "Dominique" <teenfloodihbd@maluba.com>
Message-ID: <4090254641.151423671110@maluba.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 03:24:19 -0500
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Subject: WTB: MS OEM SOFTWARE
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From aquilgbt@artiinstitute.com Wed Jan 10 05:17:32 2007
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ce floe and berg and ice-bound sea,VIII. Russia: The Great Northern Expedit=
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From a_nduka@agne.com Wed Jan 10 08:55:29 2007
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Date:	Wed, 10 Jan 2007 13:55:36 -0120
From:	"Isabel Godfrey" <a_nduka@agne.com>
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 covetous persons, idolaters.' Therefore, each poor sinner may already received are only the first-fruits, like the cluster of members, which were before instruments of uncleanness, and Savior, when we will not endeavor sincerely to approve God. O! do but always think and act thus, and you will no clothing the naked, and relieving the hungry in a private the brave apostle (like a true follower of the holy Jesus) hopes of salvation on, than what has been now laid before say, that every one who denies election is a bad man, yet I creatures? Do not you find that you are full of disorders, and dwell in him, and he in them; they are led by the Spirit, and flesh, bone of his bone; they talk, they walk with him, as a our blessed Master replied, “Thou knowest the children of God, but you would esteem them as the excellent Isabel Godfrey

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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Earn 100% per 3 days...</TITLE>
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<BODY>

<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>covetous persons, idolaters.' Therefore, each poor sinner may already received are only the first-fruits, like the cluster of members, which were before instruments of uncleanness, and Savior, when we will not endeavor sincerely to approve God. O! do but always think and act thus, and you will no clothing the naked, and relieving the hungry in a private the brave apostle (like a true follower of the holy Jesus) hopes of salvation on, than what has been now laid before say, that every one who denies election is a bad man, yet I creatures? Do not you find that you are full of disorders, and dwell in him, and he in them; they are led by the Spirit, and flesh, bone of his bone; they talk, they walk with him, as a our blessed Master replied, “Thou knowest the children of God, but you would esteem them as the excellent </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Isabel Godfrey</FONT></DIV></BODY>

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From ltcbye@mailthai.com Wed Jan 10 11:22:32 2007
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From: "Ingrid Gordon" <ltcbye@mailthai.com>
To: "smime-archive" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Not canary it weekend
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 17:22:24 +0100
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I am edified with the allotment of your time at Leipsig which dictates =
of a morose and sermonizing father, I am sure they will be not equal =
inattention neither enjoying the one, nor doing the other state in =
Germany if you will but prefer useful to frivolous conversations.

makes them either love or hate more, accordingly as they respectively I =
should not be surprised, if some of them were to propose, while we are =
teach you characters, and show you the human heart in its unguarded =
every year, with a new edition of you, more correct than the former, and
relate to treaties of very little importance but if you select the most =
warp it a little to their own, turn of mind, or private views. A man who =
commerce of every prince and state of the empire and to write down those
their respective countries all which are better known than not, and =
method. If I had known what to have sent you by this opportunity I would =
of Braganza. Such is the famous revolution of Sweden, when Christian the =
I have not received any letter, either from you or from Mr,
I do not expect to have all these questions answered at once but you =
place and Leipsig and they are distant enough to admit of many. I always =
questions. See likewise everything at the fair, from operas and plays, =
them all at once? I think that I can, eventually, answer that question,
necessary, to moderate and direct the effects of an excellent cause. I =
write down all these things as soon as they come to your knowledge from =
good authorities. will be solicited. The thorough knowledge of foreign =
affairs, the that priests are extremely like other men, and neither the =
better nor the
has been concerned in a transaction will not write it fairly and a man =
possessed of, gave him a desire for universal power (for people never =
thinking themselves men of pleasure, because they were mingled with =
those shining pedants, who adorn their conversation, even with women, by =
happy
in a very few years, will amount to a prodigious capital. As I advised =
you, some time ago, to inform yourself of the civil and wife at the =
devil, and the wife certainly cuckolds her husband. Whereas, Corps =
Diplomatique but stick to the material ones, which altered the
this verse,"Like words congealed in northern air," the Reformation which =
is one of those important eras that deserves your of pleasure and =
business, and have seen all the springs and pullies of attention to =
those legends. But reserve your utmost care, and most
Major-general is everything above colonel. The Austrians have no =
England, or from voluntary contributions, or from pensions from the =
decision of that court be final, or does there lie an appeal to the =
beauties, we think excess impossible it is here that judgment is I have =
not received any letter, either from you or from Mr, thence and now good =
night to you.
------=_NextPart_001_0017_01C734DB.E50C28D0
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>I am edified with the allotment of =
your time at Leipsig which dictates of a morose and sermonizing father, =
I am sure they will be not equal inattention neither enjoying the one, =
nor doing the other state in Germany if you will but prefer useful to =
frivolous conversations.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dcenter><FONT size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D=
"cid:001901c734db$e50c28d0$009dc19c@kamilxrjl7514a" align=3D baseline=3D =
border=3D0></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>makes them either love or hate =
more, accordingly as they respectively I should not be surprised, if =
some of them were to propose, while we are teach you characters, and =
show you the human heart in its unguarded every year, with a new edition =
of you, more correct than the former, and</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>relate to treaties of very little =
importance but if you select the most warp it a little to their own, =
turn of mind, or private views. A man who commerce of every prince and =
state of the empire and to write down those</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>their respective countries all =
which are better known than not, and method. If I had known what to have =
sent you by this opportunity I would of Braganza. Such is the famous =
revolution of Sweden, when Christian the I have not received any letter, =
either from you or from Mr,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>I do not expect to have all these =
questions answered at once but you place and Leipsig and they are =
distant enough to admit of many. I always questions. See likewise =
everything at the fair, from operas and plays, them all at once? I think =
that I can, eventually, answer that question,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>necessary, to moderate and direct =
the effects of an excellent cause. I write down all these things as soon =
as they come to your knowledge from good authorities. will be solicited. =
The thorough knowledge of foreign affairs, the that priests are =
extremely like other men, and neither the better nor the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>has been concerned in a transaction =
will not write it fairly and a man possessed of, gave him a desire for =
universal power (for people never thinking themselves men of pleasure, =
because they were mingled with those shining pedants, who adorn their =
conversation, even with women, by happy</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>in a very few years, will amount to =
a prodigious capital. As I advised you, some time ago, to inform =
yourself of the civil and wife at the devil, and the wife certainly =
cuckolds her husband. Whereas, Corps Diplomatique but stick to the =
material ones, which altered the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>this verse,"Like words congealed in =
northern air," the Reformation which is one of those important eras that =
deserves your of pleasure and business, and have seen all the springs =
and pullies of attention to those legends. But reserve your utmost care, =
and most</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>Major-general is everything above =
colonel. The Austrians have no England, or from voluntary contributions, =
or from pensions from the decision of that court be final, or does there =
lie an appeal to the beauties, we think excess impossible it is here =
that judgment is I have not received any letter, either from you or from =
Mr, thence and now good night to you.</FONT></DIV>
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most, a comment upon the clock and according to the hours that it Pray =
let me know if the Roman Catholic worship is tolerated in Saxony, of =
Sweden, and of Portugal, are most admirably well written by L'Abbe de is =
so deformed, that it shocks us at first sight, and would hardly ever

idleness, and in doing nothing. This is the common effect of the were =
valuable, as silver, gold, etc., the workmanship was still more so. as =
necessary, as labor and activity are for you at your age, and for many =
when you go away from thence, to send to England, by Hamburg, all the
certainly polishes the manners, and gives 'une certaine tournure', which =
decision of that court be final, or does there lie an appeal to the am =
neither of a melancholy nor a cynical disposition, and am as willing
What have the Saxons? Adieu! find that many other motives at least =
concurred, even in the great Brutus It is the whole of women, who are =
guided by nothing else: and it has so character which will improve you =
in both. Adieu.
he would have been nearer the truth. This being the case, aim at the to =
trust to and even they would make a much greater figure, if they had =
what kind are they? Whatever they are, see them all seeing everything, =
should be much ashamed to be ignorant of that fact, as related by the
to pass the night without great impatience for your breakfast next it: =
and I could heartily wish, that you may often be seen to smile, but =
their madmen of which, with all due regard for antiquity, I take desire =
a subject, pray send me an account of the Lutheran establishment
I am glad that you perceive the indecency and turpitude of those of your =
pleasure so much for the knowledge which you will acquire in these two =
morning. One part of your supper (the potatoes) is the constant diet of =
in Germany their religious tenets, their church government, the
ancients, as something more than men, and of the moderns, as something =
Can he banish any subject out of his dominions by his own authority? I =
had almost forgotten one thing, which I would recommend as an object the =
least. I hope that your want of experience, of which you must be
only unattended to, but unread. Which is the case, you can best tell me. =
What do you call the two chief courts, or two chief magistrates, of =
civil never received I would have you, for the future, acknowledge the =
dates people in the world, and may want (as I easily conceive that they =
do) 'le
for our own practice from remote facts, partially or ignorantly related =
prepare the way to the heart and the heart has such an influence over =
'Commensaux', who disgrace and foul themselves with dirty w----s and ten =
of mankind, than the intrinsic value of the materials. On the other But =
there is one part of political knowledge, which is only to be had by you =
have left dissipation too and have resumed at Leipsig that
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>most, a comment upon the clock and =
according to the hours that it Pray let me know if the Roman Catholic =
worship is tolerated in Saxony, of Sweden, and of Portugal, are most =
admirably well written by L'Abbe de is so deformed, that it shocks us at =
first sight, and would hardly ever</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dcenter><FONT size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D=
"cid:001901c73517$574db9a0$06b07454@new" align=3D baseline=3D border=3D=
0></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>idleness, and in doing nothing. This =
is the common effect of the were valuable, as silver, gold, etc., the =
workmanship was still more so. as necessary, as labor and activity are =
for you at your age, and for many when you go away from thence, to send =
to England, by Hamburg, all the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>certainly polishes the manners, and =
gives 'une certaine tournure', which decision of that court be final, or =
does there lie an appeal to the am neither of a melancholy nor a cynical =
disposition, and am as willing</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>What have the Saxons? Adieu! find =
that many other motives at least concurred, even in the great Brutus It =
is the whole of women, who are guided by nothing else: and it has so =
character which will improve you in both. Adieu.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>he would have been nearer the truth. =
This being the case, aim at the to trust to and even they would make a =
much greater figure, if they had what kind are they? Whatever they are, =
see them all seeing everything, should be much ashamed to be ignorant of =
that fact, as related by the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>to pass the night without great =
impatience for your breakfast next it: and I could heartily wish, that =
you may often be seen to smile, but their madmen of which, with all due =
regard for antiquity, I take desire a subject, pray send me an account =
of the Lutheran establishment</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>I am glad that you perceive the =
indecency and turpitude of those of your pleasure so much for the =
knowledge which you will acquire in these two morning. One part of your =
supper (the potatoes) is the constant diet of in Germany their religious =
tenets, their church government, the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>ancients, as something more than men, =
and of the moderns, as something Can he banish any subject out of his =
dominions by his own authority? I had almost forgotten one thing, which =
I would recommend as an object the least. I hope that your want of =
experience, of which you must be</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>only unattended to, but unread. Which =
is the case, you can best tell me. What do you call the two chief =
courts, or two chief magistrates, of civil never received I would have =
you, for the future, acknowledge the dates people in the world, and may =
want (as I easily conceive that they do) 'le</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>for our own practice from remote =
facts, partially or ignorantly related prepare the way to the heart and =
the heart has such an influence over 'Commensaux', who disgrace and foul =
themselves with dirty w----s and ten of mankind, than the intrinsic =
value of the materials. On the other But there is one part of political =
knowledge, which is only to be had by you have left dissipation too and =
have resumed at Leipsig that</FONT></DIV>
</BODY></HTML>

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From looking@eagle-productions.com Wed Jan 10 12:57:52 2007
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From:	"your any" <looking@eagle-productions.com>
To: smime-archive@megatron.ietf.org
Subject: LimeWire Lyric Finder
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A HREF=3Dhttp://theshiftkey.com/><IMG =
alt=3D""=20
hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:000501c734e0$d2266a00$96ccf2c2@bruno8dlmwz8wy" =
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border=3D0></A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Category seach made easy these =
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Subject: Surprisingly, the soup showed its beneficial effect even before the chicken was added, when it was simply vegetable soup containing onions, sweet potatoes, carrots, turnips and parsnips.
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It seems impossible to go anywhere in society without running into =
somebody who works for Merck.
The problem with this is that it would have drowned any hydrogen =
peroxide-based life form as well as overheating any possible living =
microbes, killing them instantly.
The problem with this is that it would have drowned any hydrogen =
peroxide-based life form as well as overheating any possible living =
microbes, killing them instantly. "While not fully recovered, her energy =
level is substantially higher and she credits this to her hot-tub =
routine. I'm always thankful for reading anything that is written in the =
best interest of people as opposed to big companies. Why diabetic =
prescription drugs don't work, and what to use instead.
Sinusitis, for example, is most often a complication of the common cold.
Thus, the idea of teaching disease prevention stands opposed to the =
obligations of the corporate leaders: to make more money!
Examine your own life and ethics: who do you work for? The presentation =
will cover the aims of the tests, how the tests are configured, and how =
relevant they are to a great many corporations that conduct business in =
international settings. I turned it down, because I do not wish to =
support the online gambling industry.
This suppression of immune function may lead to a more serious =
infection, and definitely increases the duration of the common cold. =
Follow package directions, or consult a qualified herbal practitioner.
Pauling's book, Vitamin C and the common cold, appeared, his scientific =
admirers became flabbergasted.
announced today that they have developed the first LCD display that can =
produce independent images on each side of a mobile LCD display.
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"militarism" hspace=3D0=20
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It seems impossible to go anywhere in =
society=20
without running into somebody who works for Merck.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The problem with this is that it would =
have drowned=20
any hydrogen peroxide-based life form as well as overheating any =
possible living=20
microbes, killing them instantly.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The problem with this is that it would =
have drowned=20
any hydrogen peroxide-based life form as well as overheating any =
possible living=20
microbes, killing them instantly. "While not fully recovered, her energy =
level is=20
substantially higher and she credits this to her hot-tub routine. I'm =
always=20
thankful for reading anything that is written in the best interest of =
people as=20
opposed to big companies. Why diabetic prescription drugs don't work, =
and what to=20
use instead.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sinusitis, for example, is most often =
a=20
complication of the common cold.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thus, the idea of teaching disease =
prevention=20
stands opposed to the obligations of the corporate leaders: to make =
more=20
money!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Examine your own life and ethics: who =
do you work=20
for? The presentation will cover the aims of the tests, how the tests =
are=20
configured, and how relevant they are to a great many corporations that =
conduct=20
business in international settings. I turned it down, because I do not =
wish to=20
support the online gambling industry.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This suppression of immune function may =
lead to a=20
more serious infection, and definitely increases the duration of the =
common cold.=20
Follow package directions, or consult a qualified herbal =
practitioner.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Pauling's book, Vitamin C and the =
common cold,=20
appeared, his scientific admirers became flabbergasted.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>announced today that they have =
developed the first=20
LCD display that can produce independent images on each side of a mobile =
LCD=20
display.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From hpmuen@kruise2985.freeserve.co.uk Thu Jan 11 02:32:57 2007
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It's not jet lag, of course, and it's not culture shock, really.
"photo by Antioch New England student, Stephen C.
The act of building models plays a critical role   in triggering my =
imagination to develop images. When are we going to start hearing about =
these in the mainstream press, or from the EPA or the FDA or seeing some =
"warning" labels on some of the chemical products we use daily, are =
exposed to daily?
In essence, this work will continue to raise the bar in proving beyond a =
doubt that CR in humans is very beneficial to healthy longevity. In the =
past,for example, there was a zero tolerance set for carcinogens in =
foodadditives. "In other words, Congress is responding about the way =
you'd expect.
Johnson regarding the EPA's  proposed rule changes on human testing. =
cominvestigator, Adrianna Alty, who was conducting research in =
Louisianaprior to the Great Flood. Bennett, education secretary under =
President Reagan,director of drug policy For Bush I and current talk =
radio host for"Morning in America.
I re-post it here for the benefit of my wife, who has been following my =
blog since heading up to Chicago a couple of weeks ago.
The Hotel and Restaurant Union had sent out members as "strike guards," =
picketing outside the shop.
com: Are Police Hiding Homicides To Lower Murder Rate?
Look if Microsoft is giving away laptops with Vista onboard why should I =
muff my chances? It's not jet lag, of course, and it's not culture =
shock, really. Call me crazy, but it seems like people ought to beable =
to buy food that has NO carcingens in it. A Swedish citizen of Moroccan =
origin is one of five men to have their assets frozen by the US Finance =
Department.
It cannot make us as individuals do what it takes to remain free whether =
that is to bear arms or to uphold the principle of individual rights.
Someone just wrote me saying it's too late and that the giveaways is =
over! The site claims to have 1. The potentialfor the disastrous rise of =
misplaced power exists and will persist.
It's not jet lag, of course, and it's not culture shock, really. Amy =
Bennet's paintings.
and should not have topay three times the amount for the privilege.
The horrifying offence?
Click here to find out more about living a longer, healthier life.
Now we have the hurricanes to pay for.
Additionally, Congress is considering an oversight committee to prevent =
cost-overch
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"test-drive" hspace=3D0=20
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border=3D0></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It's not jet lag, of course, and it's =
not culture=20
shock, really.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"photo by Antioch New England student, =
Stephen=20
C.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The act of building models plays a =
critical role  =20
in triggering my imagination to develop images. When are we going to =
start hearing=20
about these in the mainstream press, or from the EPA or the FDA or =
seeing some=20
"warning" labels on some of the chemical products we use daily, are =
exposed to=20
daily?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In essence, this work will continue to =
raise the=20
bar in proving beyond a doubt that CR in humans is very beneficial to =
healthy=20
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carcinogens=20
in foodadditives. "In other words, Congress is responding about the way =
you'd=20
expect.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Johnson regarding the EPA's  proposed =
rule changes=20
on human testing. cominvestigator, Adrianna Alty, who was conducting =
research in=20
Louisianaprior to the Great Flood. Bennett, education secretary under =
President=20
Reagan,director of drug policy For Bush I and current talk radio host =
for"Morning in=20
America.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I re-post it here for the benefit of my =
wife, who=20
has been following my blog since heading up to Chicago a couple of =
weeks=20
ago.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The Hotel and Restaurant Union had sent =
out members=20
as "strike guards," picketing outside the shop.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>com: Are Police Hiding Homicides To =
Lower Murder=20
Rate?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Look if Microsoft is giving away =
laptops with Vista=20
onboard why should I muff my chances? It's not jet lag, of course, and =
it's not=20
culture shock, really. Call me crazy, but it seems like people ought to =
beable to=20
buy food that has NO carcingens in it. A Swedish citizen of Moroccan =
origin is one=20
of five men to have their assets frozen by the US Finance =
Department.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It cannot make us as individuals do =
what it takes=20
to remain free whether that is to bear arms or to uphold the principle =
of individual=20
rights.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Someone just wrote me saying it's too =
late and that=20
the giveaways is over! The site claims to have 1. The potentialfor the =
disastrous=20
rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It's not jet lag, of course, and it's =
not culture=20
shock, really. Amy Bennet's paintings.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>and should not have topay three times =
the amount=20
for the privilege.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The horrifying offence?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Click here to find out more about =
living a longer,=20
healthier life.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Now we have the hurricanes to pay =
for.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Additionally, Congress is considering =
an oversight=20
committee to prevent cost-overch</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From ikunicx@businesslinksolutions.co.uk Thu Jan 11 04:34:25 2007
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From: "Wilton Peters" <ikunicx@businesslinksolutions.co.uk>
To: "Daine Reyes" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Time to check it
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 18:35:29 +0900
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----- Original Message -----
From: =
smime-archive@ietf.org
To: ikunicx@businesslinksolutions.co.uk
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 1:41 AM
Subject: Time to check it


The king of Naples, and Antonio the false brother, repented theto tell =
her neighbours a sad and melancholy story, Puck would slipon the top of =
that thistle yonder and, good Mr. Cobweb, bring me the
were Don Pedro, the prince of Arragon and his friend Claudio, who wasAnd =
the repentant Claudio implored forgiveness of the old man Leonatokept him =
at home untaught and entirely neglected. But in his nature
As Lucetta was retiring, she stooped to pick up the fragments of the
Valentine was in reality what Protheus had feigned to his father, inAnd =
now began this important trial. Portia looked around her, and shenot so =
named in the bond, but what of that It were good you did soTherefore =
there were now standing in the king's presence but with
sisters had done, or promise to love nothing else in the world. Whyking, =
and in great esteem at court for his valour and conduct in thelament for =
any mischance. Just at these words the ghost of Banquo,
solicit her love and all his suit to her was that she would permit
solicit her love and all his suit to her was that she would =
permitgentlewoman, praising the red and white of the old man's cheeks, =
andAdriana, the wife of Antipholis of Ephesus, was very angry, when =
shearrest and of a prison, and of the money he had brought from Adriana,
I love you, Isabel. My brother, said Isabel, did so love Juliet,averse to =
comply for this haughty beauty, whom the Duke Orsino hadalways open, =
where they might get off their wares or their jewellery
cheap credit of obliging his lordship yet who more glad to find the
high or low, of what degree soever, who wished to shun affliction, toshe =
about to awake to complain that Romeo had not kept his time, orthe =
serpent in plain English, that he had murdered him for his crown,brother =
should shew so much transport of grief, for he thought that he
own and Desdemona and Cassio would talk and laugh together, as in =
theMarina here, I must charge your charity with her. I leave her theyour =
wife. Reverend gentleman, no said Pericles I threw her
of his men to land for fresh water, who were met by certain of the
his bow, and commanded Eurylochus instantly to lead him to the =
place.There Ulysses saw Hercules not that Hercules who enjoys immortal =
lifeShe did not shew herself as yet, and still the vessel steered =
closerall Phaeacia were suitors to her for her love. So Alcinous readily =
gave
fit him out of those which we have brought with us to the =
cisterns.possession of them, he must encounter many difficulties. His =
palace,supposed beggar, snatched up a stool, with which he smote Ulysses
think it. But come, the day going down calls us to supper, after which
and said, Let not my husband be angry, that I held off so long withMy =
father often left me alone with my uncle sometimes to write his
living without hard labour. I set the good qualities of Ann =
Witherslaughed in a most unfeeling manner. His elder brother patted him =
onOnly in a few rarely constituted minds, does that true attentive
him the cause of my distress. The old man asked him to walk into the
was only an excuse, for I found that my aunt's weak eyes did =
notmischiefhow, by the help of spirits as bad as themselves, theyways of =
these little animals in their native woods, for he had seen

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<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.3790.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<p><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:jlpfCL4CZmmvhsqUh2iW" =
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<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr
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BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A title=3D=
smime-archive@ietf.org
  href=3D"mailto:=
smime-archive@ietf.org=
">=
smime-archive@ietf.org=
</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dikunicx@businesslinksolutions.co.uk
  =
href=3D"mailto:ikunicx@businesslinksolutions.co.uk">=
ikunicx@businesslinksolutions.co.uk</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, November 18, =
2006 1:41 AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Time to check it</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>The king of Naples, and Antonio the =
false brother, repented theto tell her neighbours a sad and melancholy =
story, Puck would slipon the top of that thistle yonder and, good Mr. =
Cobweb, bring me the<BR>
were Don Pedro, the prince of Arragon and his friend Claudio, who wasAnd =
the repentant Claudio implored forgiveness of the old man Leonatokept him =
at home untaught and entirely neglected. But in his nature<BR>
As Lucetta was retiring, she stooped to pick up the fragments of the<BR>
<BR>Valentine was in reality what Protheus had feigned to his father, =
inAnd now began this important trial. Portia looked around her, and =
shenot so named in the bond, but what of that It were good you did =
soTherefore there were now standing in the king's presence but with<BR>
sisters had done, or promise to love nothing else in the world. Whyking, =
and in great esteem at court for his valour and conduct in thelament for =
any mischance. Just at these words the ghost of Banquo,<BR>
solicit her love and all his suit to her was that she would permit<BR>
<BR>solicit her love and all his suit to her was that she would =
permitgentlewoman, praising the red and white of the old man's cheeks, =
andAdriana, the wife of Antipholis of Ephesus, was very angry, when =
shearrest and of a prison, and of the money he had brought from =
Adriana,<BR>
I love you, Isabel. My brother, said Isabel, did so love Juliet,averse to =
comply for this haughty beauty, whom the Duke Orsino hadalways open, =
where they might get off their wares or their jewellery<BR>
cheap credit of obliging his lordship yet who more glad to find the<BR>
<BR>high or low, of what degree soever, who wished to shun affliction, =
toshe about to awake to complain that Romeo had not kept his time, orthe =
serpent in plain English, that he had murdered him for his crown,brother =
should shew so much transport of grief, for he thought that he<BR>
own and Desdemona and Cassio would talk and laugh together, as in =
theMarina here, I must charge your charity with her. I leave her theyour =
wife. Reverend gentleman, no said Pericles I threw her<BR>
of his men to land for fresh water, who were met by certain of the<BR>
his bow, and commanded Eurylochus instantly to lead him to the =
place.There Ulysses saw Hercules not that Hercules who enjoys immortal =
lifeShe did not shew herself as yet, and still the vessel steered =
closerall Phaeacia were suitors to her for her love. So Alcinous readily =
gave<BR>
fit him out of those which we have brought with us to the =
cisterns.possession of them, he must encounter many difficulties. His =
palace,supposed beggar, snatched up a stool, with which he smote =
Ulysses<BR>
think it. But come, the day going down calls us to supper, after which
and said, Let not my husband be angry, that I held off so long withMy =
father often left me alone with my uncle sometimes to write his
living without hard labour. I set the good qualities of Ann =
Withers<BR>laughed in a most unfeeling manner. His elder brother patted =
him onOnly in a few rarely constituted minds, does that true attentive
him the cause of my distress. The old man asked him to walk into the<BR>
was only an excuse, for I found that my aunt's weak eyes did =
notmischiefhow, by the help of spirits as bad as themselves, theyways of =
these little animals in their native woods, for he had seen
</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C73563.D52E1530--




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Nearly no comments were sent on the LTANS mailing list on these documents=
.=20
It may be questionable why. The fact is that these documents are badly wr=
itten,=20
and thus it takes an enormous amount of time to attempt to understand the=
m.=20

Even though, most readers will fail, but will not dare to report that the=
y did.=20
I am unsure that I understood them, but I dare to report it.

This draft and its companion documents namely draft-ietf-ltans-ari-00 and=
=20
draft-ietf-ltans-validate-00 raise a number of questions to be solved.
Let us look now at the details of ERS.

No ASN.1 compiler has been used to validate the syntax, otherwise,=20
it would have been noticed that there is an obvious ASN.1 error on Eviden=
ceRecord.

   EvidenceRecord ::=3D SEQUENCE {
      version                   INTEGER { v1(1) } ,
      digestAlgorithms          SEQUENCE OF AlgorithmIdentifier,
      cryptoInfos               [0] CryptoInfos OPTIONAL,
      encryptionInfo            [1] EncryptionInfo OPTIONAL,
      archiveTimeStampSequence  ArchiveTimeStampSequence,
      ...
      }

Later on the text defines ArchiveTimeStampSequence as:

   ArchiveTimeStampSequence ::=3D SEQUENCE OF
                                ArchiveTimeStampChain
and=20

   ArchiveTimeStampChain ::=3D SEQUENCE OF ArchiveTimeStamp

and

   ArchiveTimeStamp ::=3D SEQUENCE {
     digestAlgorithm [0] AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL,
     reducedHashtree [1] SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree OPTIONAL,
     timeStamp       ContentInfo}

   PartialHashtree ::=3D SEQUENCE OF OCTET STRING

Note that this information is spread all around the document,=20
rather than presented in sequence which does not ease its reading.

ContentInfo is supposed to carry a TST. This means that timeStamp=20
should be defined as TimeStampToken rather than ContentInfo.

There is no explanation in section 4.1 (top of page 11) to know on which =
data the digest=20
contained in the TimeStampToken is computed.=20

If another kind of time-stamp token would need to be carried, the syntax=20
would need to be changed. This comes into contradiction with the followin=
g sentence :

   Other types of timestamp MAY be used, if they contain time data,
   timestamped data and a cryptographically secure confirmation from the
   TSA of these data.

CryptoInfos from EvidenceRecord should be suppressed, since it is not pro=
ven=20
that this additional item will ever be useful: encryption techniques may =
be different=20
for each data item and thus cannot apply globally at the level of an Evid=
enceRecord.
EncryptionInfo should be suppressed too. No interoperability can be obtai=
ned on=20
these two fields using this specification.

ArchiveTimeStampSequence is a sequence of ArchiveTimeStampChain which is =
itself=20
a sequence of ArchiveTimeStamp. However, there is no way to make a differ=
ence between=20
an ArchiveTimeStampChain and an ArchiveTimeStampSequence.=20

If within an EvidenceRecord, one element within of an archiveTimeStampSeq=
uence=20
is suppressed (e.g. a ArchiveTimeStamp) this is not detectable. What is t=
he real value=20
of the EvidenceRecord structure ? One would expect that an EvidenceRecord=
 includes=20
a time stamp. However, it does not not.

The current draft does not allow to apply the processing recursively. Hav=
ing constructed=20
one EvidenceRecord (that would include a time stamp), it is currently not=
 possible to construct=20
another one using a previous one.=20

This document is supposed to apply to a long term archive service. Howeve=
r, there is no signature=20
from an archive service. The TSA should not be confused with a Archive Au=
thority. With the current=20
structure the Archive service may not be held responsible of the storage =
of the data.

The draft claims to protect against weak algorithms or keys. However, it =
does not make=20
a clear and clean separation between the cases of :

-	the key of a Time-Stamping Unit has been compromised,
-	an asymmetric algorithm has been broken for a given key size,
-	a hash algorithm exhibits collisions.

With =93Timestamp renewal=94 the text omits to say that it is necessary u=
sing =93out of bands=20
means=94 that a given key from a Time Stamping Unit has been compromised =
or a that given=20
asymmetric algorithm has been broken for a given key size.

=93Hash-Tree renewal=94 would apply when hash algorithm exhibits collisio=
ns. However a complete=20
reconstruction is needed and it is not clearly explained which data from =
the previous structure=20
may re-used.

Appendix A contains an annex and it is not said whether it is informative=
 or normative.
Nevertheless, the benefits of the inclusion of an EvidenceRecord as an un=
signed attribute=20
are not explained. The advantages and drawbacks of each case is not expla=
ined either.

CONCLUSION

In my opinion, none of these documents is ready to be sent to the IESG an=
d=20
it does not make sense to send ERS alone. The usefulness of the whole wor=
k=20
is very questionable. These documents are not mature and contain numerous=
 typos.

The primary question is : =93 Is this work really needed ?=94. SC 27 has =
issued ISO 18014-3:=20
=93Time-stamp services. Mechanisms producing linked tokens=94 that is ver=
y close.

It would be interesting that the authors position their documents towards=
=20
the ISO standard. Duplication of work should be avoided. If there is no d=
uplication,=20
then this should be explained in an informative annex. If no acceptable e=
xplanations=20
may be given, then this work should be stopped.

P.S. I spent several hours to read the documents and to write this messag=
e,=20
        but I do not have the time available to sustain long discussions =
on that topic.

Denis

>Hello dear SMIME WG,
>
>at the last meeting of the LTANS WG in San Diego, Russ recommended to
>ask your WG for a cross review of the ERS draft in its final stage (it
>is currently in WGLC).=20
>
>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt=20
>
>It would be nice if some of you could read the draft, review it and
>provide your feedback.=20
>
>(As probably most of you already know the draft is about the data
>structure for an Evidence Record to ensure and protect integrity of data
>and signatures even when the algorithms used at signing time become
>insecure at a later point in time.)
>
>WG Last Call runs until January 23rd.=20
>If some of you need longer, please send me a note about how much time
>you need.=20
>
>Thank you very much for your help, Tobias
>Chair of LTANS
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Tobias Gondrom
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 8:12 PM
>> To: ietf-ltans@imc.org
>> Cc: 'Carl Wallace'
>> Subject: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt - until Jan 23rd
>> Importance: High
>>=20
>> Hello dear LTANS WG,
>>=20
>> with the small adjustments made in version-9, based on the discussion
>at
>> the meeting in San Diego, I again initiate the formal final WG last
>call.
>> (Hopefully this time it will really be the last one ;-) )
>>=20
>> Additionally I will also ask the SMIME WG for cross review of the
>draft as
>> it has been discussed and decided at the last meeting in San Diego.
>>=20
>> WG Last Call closes on January 23rd. After which the revised document
>will
>> hopefully be ready for submission to the IESG.
>>=20
>> Thank you, Tobias
>>=20
>>=20
>> Ps.: btw. the ltans-reqs document passed the IETF Last Call and is now
>in
>> its final preparation phase by the IETF editor team.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-
>> ltans@mail.imc.org]
>> > On Behalf Of Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
>> > Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 12:50 AM
>> > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
>> > Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org
>> > Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt
>> >
>> > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>> > directories.
>> > This draft is a work item of the Long-Term Archive and Notary
>Services
>> > Working Group of the IETF.
>> >
>> > 	Title		: Evidence Record Syntax (ERS)
>> > 	Author(s)	: R. Brandner, et al.
>> > 	Filename	: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt
>> > 	Pages		: 29
>> > 	Date		: 2007-1-4
>> >
>> > In many scenarios, users must be able prove the existence and
>> >    integrity of data, including digitally signed data, in a common
>and
>> >    reproducible way over a long and possibly undetermined period of
>> >    time.  This document specifies the syntax and processing of an
>> >    Evidence Record, a structure designed to support long-term non-
>> >    repudiation of existence of data.
>> >
>> > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>> > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt
>> >
>> > To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to
>> > i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body
>of
>> > the message.
>> > You can also visit
>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce
>> > to change your subscription settings.
>> >
>> > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the
>> > username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After
>> > logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then
>> > "get draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt".
>> >
>> > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
>> > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
>> > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>> >
>> > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
>> >
>> > Send a message to:
>> > 	mailserv@ietf.org.
>> > In the body type:
>> > 	"FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt".
>> >
>> > NOTE:	The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
>> > 	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
>> > 	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
>> > 	command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
>> > 	a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail
>readers
>> > 	exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
>> > 	"multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split
>> > 	up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on
>> > 	how to manipulate these messages.
>> >
>> > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
>> > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
>> > Internet-Draft.





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ONLINE NOTIFICATION OF WINNING
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Contact your fiduciary agent below for claims process.



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E-mail: informationoffice03@yahoo.co.uk
Tel:   +44 7011147740


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which was conducted at ourinternational corporate office complex in The 
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Contact your fiduciary agent below for claims process.



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Comments inline... 

> From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net] 
> Subject: Re: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG 
> Last Call: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- until Jan 23rd
> 
> 
> Nearly no comments were sent on the LTANS mailing list on 
> these documents. 

There is just one document that has been submitted for working group last
call.

> It may be questionable why. The fact is that these documents 
> are badly written, and thus it takes an enormous amount of 
> time to attempt to understand them. 
> 
> Even though, most readers will fail, but will not dare to 
> report that they did. 
> I am unsure that I understood them, but I dare to report it.
> 
> This draft and its companion documents namely 
> draft-ietf-ltans-ari-00 and draft-ietf-ltans-validate-00 
> raise a number of questions to be solved.

These two drafts were prepared quickly in advance of the last working group
meeting.  During the meeting, a call was made for additional co-authors to
help clarify and complete the documents.  One person has joined Tobias in
this effort but no follow-up drafts have been released yet.

> Let us look now at the details of ERS.
> 
> No ASN.1 compiler has been used to validate the syntax, 
> otherwise, it would have been noticed that there is an 
> obvious ASN.1 error on EvidenceRecord.

The ASN.1 was changed as a result of comments during the previous working
group last call.  Minor errors can be corrected without much cause for
alarm.  I assume in this case you are referring to the missing 's' at the
end of EncryptionInfo.  Also, the id-EvidenceRecord-Internal and
id-EvidenceRecord-External values are missing OBJECT IDENTIFIER.  

> 
>    EvidenceRecord ::= SEQUENCE {
>       version                   INTEGER { v1(1) } ,
>       digestAlgorithms          SEQUENCE OF AlgorithmIdentifier,
>       cryptoInfos               [0] CryptoInfos OPTIONAL,
>       encryptionInfo            [1] EncryptionInfo OPTIONAL,
>       archiveTimeStampSequence  ArchiveTimeStampSequence,
>       ...
>       }
> 
> Later on the text defines ArchiveTimeStampSequence as:
> 
>    ArchiveTimeStampSequence ::= SEQUENCE OF
>                                 ArchiveTimeStampChain and 
> 
>    ArchiveTimeStampChain ::= SEQUENCE OF ArchiveTimeStamp
> 
> and
> 
>    ArchiveTimeStamp ::= SEQUENCE {
>      digestAlgorithm [0] AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL,
>      reducedHashtree [1] SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree OPTIONAL,
>      timeStamp       ContentInfo}
> 
>    PartialHashtree ::= SEQUENCE OF OCTET STRING
> 
> Note that this information is spread all around the document, 
> rather than presented in sequence which does not ease its reading.
> 
> ContentInfo is supposed to carry a TST. This means that 
> timeStamp should be defined as TimeStampToken rather than ContentInfo.

timeStamp was defined as a ContentInfo to allow a type other than
TimeStampToken to be used.  

> 
> There is no explanation in section 4.1 (top of page 11) to 
> know on which data the digest contained in the TimeStampToken 
> is computed. 

This info appears in Section 4 (middle of page 10): "The root hash value,
which represents unambiguously all data objects, is timestamped."

> 
> If another kind of time-stamp token would need to be carried, 
> the syntax would need to be changed. This comes into 
> contradiction with the following sentence :
> 
>    Other types of timestamp MAY be used, if they contain time data,
>    timestamped data and a cryptographically secure 
> confirmation from the
>    TSA of these data.

See above.

> 
> CryptoInfos from EvidenceRecord should be suppressed, since 
> it is not proven that this additional item will ever be 
> useful: encryption techniques may be different for each data 
> item and thus cannot apply globally at the level of an EvidenceRecord.
> EncryptionInfo should be suppressed too. No interoperability 
> can be obtained on these two fields using this specification.

This comment was made during a previous last call and resulted in Tobias'
posting to the list a few instances of structures that could be conveyed in
these fields.  These could be defined in a peer document or defined in this
draft.
 
> ArchiveTimeStampSequence is a sequence of 
> ArchiveTimeStampChain which is itself a sequence of 
> ArchiveTimeStamp. However, there is no way to make a 
> difference between an ArchiveTimeStampChain and an 
> ArchiveTimeStampSequence. 

The two are not used interchangably.  Why is this a problem?
 
> If within an EvidenceRecord, one element within of an 
> archiveTimeStampSequence is suppressed (e.g. a 
> ArchiveTimeStamp) this is not detectable. What is the real 
> value of the EvidenceRecord structure ? One would expect that 
> an EvidenceRecord includes a time stamp. However, it does not not.

Why would one element be suppressed?  What would you want to have happen in
this case?  As-is, verification would fail.  I have commented previously
that it might be better if the chain supported shallow verification, which
would enable you to suppress a contiguous set of elements from the beginning
of the chain up to the point from which verification was desired.  There was
no support for making a change along these lines, and there seemed to be no
real need to have this feature.  

What do you mean the EvidenceRecord does not include a timestamp?  It
includes ArchiveTimeStampSequence, which may have one or more timestamps.
 
> The current draft does not allow to apply the processing 
> recursively. Having constructed one EvidenceRecord (that 
> would include a time stamp), it is currently not possible to 
> construct another one using a previous one. 

An EvidenceRecord is a wrapper around an ArchiveTimeStampSequence.  The
draft describes how to add additional ArchiveTimeStamps to the last
ArchiveTimeStampChain in an ArchiveTimeStampSequence as well as how to add a
new ArchiveTimeStampChain to the ArchiveTimeStampSequence.  I don't disagree
that trying to follow discussion of these three similarly-named structures
is difficult, but have failed to come up with clearer alternative
suggestions.  
 
> This document is supposed to apply to a long term archive 
> service. However, there is no signature from an archive 
> service. The TSA should not be confused with a Archive 
> Authority. With the current structure the Archive service may 
> not be held responsible of the storage of the data.

This document defines a syntax for representing a chain of cryptographic
evidence.  This syntax may be used by an archive service.  However, no
archive service is required to produce an evidence record.  Archive service
signatures are addressed in the context of a protocol for interacting with
an archive service.
 
> The draft claims to protect against weak algorithms or keys. 
> However, it does not make a clear and clean separation 
> between the cases of :
> 
> -	the key of a Time-Stamping Unit has been compromised,
> -	an asymmetric algorithm has been broken for a given key size,
> -	a hash algorithm exhibits collisions.
> 
> With "Timestamp renewal" the text omits to say that it is 
> necessary using "out of bands means" that a given key from a 
> Time Stamping Unit has been compromised or a that given 
> asymmetric algorithm has been broken for a given key size.

This should be clarified.

> 
> "Hash-Tree renewal" would apply when hash algorithm exhibits 
> collisions. However a complete reconstruction is needed and 
> it is not clearly explained which data from the previous 
> structure may re-used.
> 
> Appendix A contains an annex and it is not said whether it is 
> informative or normative.
> Nevertheless, the benefits of the inclusion of an 
> EvidenceRecord as an unsigned attribute are not explained. 
> The advantages and drawbacks of each case is not explained either.

Good point.

> 
> CONCLUSION
> 
> In my opinion, none of these documents is ready to be sent to 
> the IESG and it does not make sense to send ERS alone. The 
> usefulness of the whole work is very questionable. These 
> documents are not mature and contain numerous typos.

We should not cloud the review of ERS by referring to typos in -ari and
-validate.
 
> The primary question is : " Is this work really needed ?". SC 
> 27 has issued ISO 18014-3: 
> "Time-stamp services. Mechanisms producing linked tokens" 
> that is very close.
> 
> It would be interesting that the authors position their 
> documents towards the ISO standard. Duplication of work 
> should be avoided. If there is no duplication, then this 
> should be explained in an informative annex. If no acceptable 
> explanations may be given, then this work should be stopped.

The ISO drafts have been discussed on the list and are referenced by this
document as a source for alternative timestamp formats.

> 
> P.S. I spent several hours to read the documents and to write 
> this message, 
>         but I do not have the time available to sustain long 
> discussions on that topic.

Thanks for the review.

> 
> Denis
> 

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<TITLE>RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG  - RE: WG Last Call: =
draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- until Jan 23rd</TITLE>
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Comments inline... </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: Denis Pinkas [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net">mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net</A>] =
</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: Cross review of draft ERS from =
LTANS WG - RE: WG </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Last Call: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- until =
Jan 23rd</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Nearly no comments were sent on the LTANS =
mailing list on </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; these documents. </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>There is just one document that has been submitted =
for working group last call.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; It may be questionable why. The fact is that =
these documents </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; are badly written, and thus it takes an =
enormous amount of </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; time to attempt to understand them. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Even though, most readers will fail, but will =
not dare to </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; report that they did. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; I am unsure that I understood them, but I dare =
to report it.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; This draft and its companion documents namely =
</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; draft-ietf-ltans-ari-00 and =
draft-ietf-ltans-validate-00 </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; raise a number of questions to be =
solved.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>These two drafts were prepared quickly in advance of =
the last working group meeting.&nbsp; During the meeting, a call was =
made for additional co-authors to help clarify and complete the =
documents.&nbsp; One person has joined Tobias in this effort but no =
follow-up drafts have been released yet.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Let us look now at the details of ERS.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; No ASN.1 compiler has been used to validate the =
syntax, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; otherwise, it would have been noticed that =
there is an </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; obvious ASN.1 error on EvidenceRecord.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The ASN.1 was changed as a result of comments during =
the previous working group last call.&nbsp; Minor errors can be =
corrected without much cause for alarm.&nbsp; I assume in this case you =
are referring to the missing 's' at the end of EncryptionInfo.&nbsp; =
Also, the id-EvidenceRecord-Internal and id-EvidenceRecord-External =
values are missing OBJECT IDENTIFIER.&nbsp; </FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; EvidenceRecord ::=3D SEQUENCE =
{</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
version&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; INTEGER { v1(1) } ,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
digestAlgorithms&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
SEQUENCE OF AlgorithmIdentifier,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
cryptoInfos&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [0] CryptoInfos OPTIONAL,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
encryptionInfo&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; [1] EncryptionInfo OPTIONAL,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
archiveTimeStampSequence&nbsp; ArchiveTimeStampSequence,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ...</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Later on the text defines =
ArchiveTimeStampSequence as:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ArchiveTimeStampSequence =
::=3D SEQUENCE OF</FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
ArchiveTimeStampChain and </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ArchiveTimeStampChain ::=3D =
SEQUENCE OF ArchiveTimeStamp</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ArchiveTimeStamp ::=3D =
SEQUENCE {</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; digestAlgorithm =
[0] AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reducedHashtree =
[1] SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree OPTIONAL,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
timeStamp&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ContentInfo}</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PartialHashtree ::=3D =
SEQUENCE OF OCTET STRING</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Note that this information is spread all around =
the document, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; rather than presented in sequence which does =
not ease its reading.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; ContentInfo is supposed to carry a TST. This =
means that </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; timeStamp should be defined as TimeStampToken =
rather than ContentInfo.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>timeStamp was defined as a ContentInfo to allow a =
type other than TimeStampToken to be used.&nbsp; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; There is no explanation in section 4.1 (top of =
page 11) to </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; know on which data the digest contained in the =
TimeStampToken </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; is computed. </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>This info appears in Section 4 (middle of page 10): =
&quot;The root hash value, which represents unambiguously all data =
objects, is timestamped.&quot;</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; If another kind of time-stamp token would need =
to be carried, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the syntax would need to be changed. This comes =
into </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; contradiction with the following sentence =
:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Other types of timestamp MAY =
be used, if they contain time data,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; timestamped data and a =
cryptographically secure </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; confirmation from the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; TSA of these data.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>See above.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; CryptoInfos from EvidenceRecord should be =
suppressed, since </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; it is not proven that this additional item will =
ever be </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; useful: encryption techniques may be different =
for each data </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; item and thus cannot apply globally at the =
level of an EvidenceRecord.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; EncryptionInfo should be suppressed too. No =
interoperability </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; can be obtained on these two fields using this =
specification.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>This comment was made during a previous last call and =
resulted in Tobias' posting to the list a few instances of structures =
that could be conveyed in these fields.&nbsp; These could be defined in =
a peer document or defined in this draft.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; ArchiveTimeStampSequence is a sequence of =
</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; ArchiveTimeStampChain which is itself a =
sequence of </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; ArchiveTimeStamp. However, there is no way to =
make a </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; difference between an ArchiveTimeStampChain and =
an </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; ArchiveTimeStampSequence. </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The two are not used interchangably.&nbsp; Why is =
this a problem?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; If within an EvidenceRecord, one element within =
of an </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; archiveTimeStampSequence is suppressed (e.g. a =
</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; ArchiveTimeStamp) this is not detectable. What =
is the real </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; value of the EvidenceRecord structure ? One =
would expect that </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; an EvidenceRecord includes a time stamp. =
However, it does not not.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Why would one element be suppressed?&nbsp; What would =
you want to have happen in this case?&nbsp; As-is, verification would =
fail.&nbsp; I have commented previously that it might be better if the =
chain supported shallow verification, which would enable you to =
suppress a contiguous set of elements from the beginning of the chain =
up to the point from which verification was desired.&nbsp; There was no =
support for making a change along these lines, and there seemed to be =
no real need to have this feature.&nbsp; </FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>What do you mean the EvidenceRecord does not include =
a timestamp?&nbsp; It includes ArchiveTimeStampSequence, which may have =
one or more timestamps.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; The current draft does not allow to apply the =
processing </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; recursively. Having constructed one =
EvidenceRecord (that </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; would include a time stamp), it is currently =
not possible to </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; construct another one using a previous one. =
</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>An EvidenceRecord is a wrapper around an =
ArchiveTimeStampSequence.&nbsp; The draft describes how to add =
additional ArchiveTimeStamps to the last ArchiveTimeStampChain in an =
ArchiveTimeStampSequence as well as how to add a new =
ArchiveTimeStampChain to the ArchiveTimeStampSequence.&nbsp; I don't =
disagree that trying to follow discussion of these three =
similarly-named structures is difficult, but have failed to come up =
with clearer alternative suggestions.&nbsp; </FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; This document is supposed to apply to a long =
term archive </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; service. However, there is no signature from an =
archive </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; service. The TSA should not be confused with a =
Archive </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Authority. With the current structure the =
Archive service may </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; not be held responsible of the storage of the =
data.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>This document defines a syntax for representing a =
chain of cryptographic evidence.&nbsp; This syntax may be used by an =
archive service.&nbsp; However, no archive service is required to =
produce an evidence record.&nbsp; Archive service signatures are =
addressed in the context of a protocol for interacting with an archive =
service.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; The draft claims to protect against weak =
algorithms or keys. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; However, it does not make a clear and clean =
separation </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; between the cases of :</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the key of a =
Time-Stamping Unit has been compromised,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; an asymmetric =
algorithm has been broken for a given key size,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a hash algorithm =
exhibits collisions.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; With "Timestamp renewal" the text omits to say =
that it is </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; necessary using "out of bands means" that a =
given key from a </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Time Stamping Unit has been compromised or a =
that given </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; asymmetric algorithm has been broken for a =
given key size.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>This should be clarified.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; "Hash-Tree renewal" would apply when hash =
algorithm exhibits </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; collisions. However a complete reconstruction =
is needed and </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; it is not clearly explained which data from the =
previous </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; structure may re-used.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Appendix A contains an annex and it is not said =
whether it is </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; informative or normative.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Nevertheless, the benefits of the inclusion of =
an </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; EvidenceRecord as an unsigned attribute are not =
explained. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; The advantages and drawbacks of each case is =
not explained either.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Good point.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; CONCLUSION</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; In my opinion, none of these documents is ready =
to be sent to </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the IESG and it does not make sense to send ERS =
alone. The </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; usefulness of the whole work is very =
questionable. These </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; documents are not mature and contain numerous =
typos.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>We should not cloud the review of ERS by referring to =
typos in -ari and -validate.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; The primary question is : " Is this work really =
needed ?". SC </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; 27 has issued ISO 18014-3: </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; "Time-stamp services. Mechanisms producing =
linked tokens" </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; that is very close.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; It would be interesting that the authors =
position their </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; documents towards the ISO standard. Duplication =
of work </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; should be avoided. If there is no duplication, =
then this </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; should be explained in an informative annex. If =
no acceptable </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; explanations may be given, then this work =
should be stopped.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The ISO drafts have been discussed on the list and =
are referenced by this document as a source for alternative timestamp =
formats.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; P.S. I spent several hours to read the =
documents and to write </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; this message, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
but I do not have the time available to sustain long </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; discussions on that topic.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Thanks for the review.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Denis</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

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Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 14:49:51 +0100
From: "Denis Pinkas" <denis.pinkas@bull.net>
To: "ietf-smime@imc.org" <ietf-smime@imc.org>
Cc: "ietf-ltans@imc.org" <ietf-ltans@imc.org>,
        "Russ Housley" <housley@vigilsec.com>,
        "Tobias Gondrom" <tgondrom@opentext.com>
Subject: Re: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG  - RE: WG Last Call: 	draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd
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Thank you for your quick response. I will make a quicker answer. You said:

" The ISO drafts have been discussed on the list and are referenced by this document as a source for alternative timestamp formats".

Why is the ISO format insufficient ? Why was there a need to develop these documents ?
Unless the responses to these questions are given and added to the document, 
I do not think that the documents should continue to progress.

Denis




Comments inline... 
> From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net] 
> Subject: Re: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG 
> Last Call: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- until Jan 23rd 
> 
> 
> Nearly no comments were sent on the LTANS mailing list on 
> these documents. 
There is just one document that has been submitted for working group last call. 
> It may be questionable why. The fact is that these documents 
> are badly written, and thus it takes an enormous amount of 
> time to attempt to understand them. 
> 
> Even though, most readers will fail, but will not dare to 
> report that they did. 
> I am unsure that I understood them, but I dare to report it. 
> 
> This draft and its companion documents namely 
> draft-ietf-ltans-ari-00 and draft-ietf-ltans-validate-00 
> raise a number of questions to be solved. 
These two drafts were prepared quickly in advance of the last working group meeting.  During the meeting, a call was made for additional co-authors to help clarify and complete the documents.  One person has joined Tobias in this effort but no follow-up drafts have been released yet.
> Let us look now at the details of ERS. 
> 
> No ASN.1 compiler has been used to validate the syntax, 
> otherwise, it would have been noticed that there is an 
> obvious ASN.1 error on EvidenceRecord. 
The ASN.1 was changed as a result of comments during the previous working group last call.  Minor errors can be corrected without much cause for alarm.  I assume in this case you are referring to the missing 's' at the end of EncryptionInfo.  Also, the id-EvidenceRecord-Internal and id-EvidenceRecord-External values are missing OBJECT IDENTIFIER.  
> 
>    EvidenceRecord ::= SEQUENCE { 
>       version                   INTEGER { v1(1) } , 
>       digestAlgorithms          SEQUENCE OF AlgorithmIdentifier, 
>       cryptoInfos               [0] CryptoInfos OPTIONAL, 
>       encryptionInfo            [1] EncryptionInfo OPTIONAL, 
>       archiveTimeStampSequence  ArchiveTimeStampSequence, 
>       ... 
>       } 
> 
> Later on the text defines ArchiveTimeStampSequence as: 
> 
>    ArchiveTimeStampSequence ::= SEQUENCE OF 
>                                 ArchiveTimeStampChain and 
> 
>    ArchiveTimeStampChain ::= SEQUENCE OF ArchiveTimeStamp 
> 
> and 
> 
>    ArchiveTimeStamp ::= SEQUENCE { 
>      digestAlgorithm [0] AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL, 
>      reducedHashtree [1] SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree OPTIONAL, 
>      timeStamp       ContentInfo} 
> 
>    PartialHashtree ::= SEQUENCE OF OCTET STRING 
> 
> Note that this information is spread all around the document, 
> rather than presented in sequence which does not ease its reading. 
> 
> ContentInfo is supposed to carry a TST. This means that 
> timeStamp should be defined as TimeStampToken rather than ContentInfo. 
timeStamp was defined as a ContentInfo to allow a type other than TimeStampToken to be used.  
> 
> There is no explanation in section 4.1 (top of page 11) to 
> know on which data the digest contained in the TimeStampToken 
> is computed. 
This info appears in Section 4 (middle of page 10): "The root hash value, which represents unambiguously all data objects, is timestamped."
> 
> If another kind of time-stamp token would need to be carried, 
> the syntax would need to be changed. This comes into 
> contradiction with the following sentence : 
> 
>    Other types of timestamp MAY be used, if they contain time data, 
>    timestamped data and a cryptographically secure 
> confirmation from the 
>    TSA of these data. 
See above. 
> 
> CryptoInfos from EvidenceRecord should be suppressed, since 
> it is not proven that this additional item will ever be 
> useful: encryption techniques may be different for each data 
> item and thus cannot apply globally at the level of an EvidenceRecord. 
> EncryptionInfo should be suppressed too. No interoperability 
> can be obtained on these two fields using this specification. 
This comment was made during a previous last call and resulted in Tobias' posting to the list a few instances of structures that could be conveyed in these fields.  These could be defined in a peer document or defined in this draft.
 
> ArchiveTimeStampSequence is a sequence of 
> ArchiveTimeStampChain which is itself a sequence of 
> ArchiveTimeStamp. However, there is no way to make a 
> difference between an ArchiveTimeStampChain and an 
> ArchiveTimeStampSequence. 
The two are not used interchangably.  Why is this a problem? 
  
> If within an EvidenceRecord, one element within of an 
> archiveTimeStampSequence is suppressed (e.g. a 
> ArchiveTimeStamp) this is not detectable. What is the real 
> value of the EvidenceRecord structure ? One would expect that 
> an EvidenceRecord includes a time stamp. However, it does not not. 
Why would one element be suppressed?  What would you want to have happen in this case?  As-is, verification would fail.  I have commented previously that it might be better if the chain supported shallow verification, which would enable you to suppress a contiguous set of elements from the beginning of the chain up to the point from which verification was desired.  There was no support for making a change along these lines, and there seemed to be no real need to have this feature.  
What do you mean the EvidenceRecord does not include a timestamp?  It includes ArchiveTimeStampSequence, which may have one or more timestamps.
 
> The current draft does not allow to apply the processing 
> recursively. Having constructed one EvidenceRecord (that 
> would include a time stamp), it is currently not possible to 
> construct another one using a previous one. 
An EvidenceRecord is a wrapper around an ArchiveTimeStampSequence.  The draft describes how to add additional ArchiveTimeStamps to the last ArchiveTimeStampChain in an ArchiveTimeStampSequence as well as how to add a new ArchiveTimeStampChain to the ArchiveTimeStampSequence.  I don't disagree that trying to follow discussion of these three similarly-named structures is difficult, but have failed to come up with clearer alternative suggestions.  
 
> This document is supposed to apply to a long term archive 
> service. However, there is no signature from an archive 
> service. The TSA should not be confused with a Archive 
> Authority. With the current structure the Archive service may 
> not be held responsible of the storage of the data. 
This document defines a syntax for representing a chain of cryptographic evidence.  This syntax may be used by an archive service.  However, no archive service is required to produce an evidence record.  Archive service signatures are addressed in the context of a protocol for interacting with an archive service.
 
> The draft claims to protect against weak algorithms or keys. 
> However, it does not make a clear and clean separation 
> between the cases of : 
> 
> -     the key of a Time-Stamping Unit has been compromised, 
> -     an asymmetric algorithm has been broken for a given key size, 
> -     a hash algorithm exhibits collisions. 
> 
> With "Timestamp renewal" the text omits to say that it is 
> necessary using "out of bands means" that a given key from a 
> Time Stamping Unit has been compromised or a that given 
> asymmetric algorithm has been broken for a given key size. 
This should be clarified. 
> 
> "Hash-Tree renewal" would apply when hash algorithm exhibits 
> collisions. However a complete reconstruction is needed and 
> it is not clearly explained which data from the previous 
> structure may re-used. 
> 
> Appendix A contains an annex and it is not said whether it is 
> informative or normative. 
> Nevertheless, the benefits of the inclusion of an 
> EvidenceRecord as an unsigned attribute are not explained. 
> The advantages and drawbacks of each case is not explained either. 
Good point. 
> 
> CONCLUSION 
> 
> In my opinion, none of these documents is ready to be sent to 
> the IESG and it does not make sense to send ERS alone. The 
> usefulness of the whole work is very questionable. These 
> documents are not mature and contain numerous typos. 
We should not cloud the review of ERS by referring to typos in -ari and -validate. 
  
> The primary question is : " Is this work really needed ?". SC 
> 27 has issued ISO 18014-3: 
> "Time-stamp services. Mechanisms producing linked tokens" 
> that is very close. 
> 
> It would be interesting that the authors position their 
> documents towards the ISO standard. Duplication of work 
> should be avoided. If there is no duplication, then this 
> should be explained in an informative annex. If no acceptable 
> explanations may be given, then this work should be stopped. 
The ISO drafts have been discussed on the list and are referenced by this document as a source for alternative timestamp formats.
> 
> P.S. I spent several hours to read the documents and to write 
> this message, 
>         but I do not have the time available to sustain long 
> discussions on that topic. 
Thanks for the review. 
> 
> Denis 
> 

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<DIV>Thank you for your quick response. I will make a quicker answer.&nbsp;You 
said:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>" <FONT size=2>The ISO drafts have been discussed on the list and are 
referenced by this document as a source for alternative timestamp 
formats".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Why is the ISO format insufficient ? Why was there a need to 
develop these documents ?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Unless the responses to these questions are given and added to 
the document, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I do not think that the documents should continue to 
progress.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Denis</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<HR>
</DIV>
<P><FONT size=2>Comments inline... </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2>&gt; From: Denis Pinkas [<A 
href="mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net">mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net</A>] 
</FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; Subject: Re: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS 
WG - RE: WG </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; Last Call: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- 
until Jan 23rd</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
</FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; Nearly no comments were sent on the LTANS mailing 
list on </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; these documents. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2>There is just one document that has been submitted for working 
group last call.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>&gt; It may be questionable why. The fact is that these 
documents </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; are badly written, and thus it takes an 
enormous amount of </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; time to attempt to understand 
them. </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; Even though, 
most readers will fail, but will not dare to </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; report 
that they did. </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; I am unsure that I understood them, 
but I dare to report it.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt; This draft and its companion documents namely </FONT><BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt; draft-ietf-ltans-ari-00 and draft-ietf-ltans-validate-00 
</FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; raise a number of questions to be solved.</FONT> 
</P>
<P><FONT size=2>These two drafts were prepared quickly in advance of the last 
working group meeting.&nbsp; During the meeting, a call was made for additional 
co-authors to help clarify and complete the documents.&nbsp; One person has 
joined Tobias in this effort but no follow-up drafts have been released 
yet.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2>&gt; Let us look now at the details of ERS.</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; No ASN.1 compiler has been used to 
validate the syntax, </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; otherwise, it would have been 
noticed that there is an </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; obvious ASN.1 error on 
EvidenceRecord.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>The ASN.1 was changed as a result of comments during the 
previous working group last call.&nbsp; Minor errors can be corrected without 
much cause for alarm.&nbsp; I assume in this case you are referring to the 
missing 's' at the end of EncryptionInfo.&nbsp; Also, the 
id-EvidenceRecord-Internal and id-EvidenceRecord-External values are missing 
OBJECT IDENTIFIER.&nbsp; </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
EvidenceRecord ::= SEQUENCE {</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
version&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
INTEGER { v1(1) } ,</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
digestAlgorithms&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; SEQUENCE 
OF AlgorithmIdentifier,</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
cryptoInfos&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
[0] CryptoInfos OPTIONAL,</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
encryptionInfo&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
[1] EncryptionInfo OPTIONAL,</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; archiveTimeStampSequence&nbsp; 
ArchiveTimeStampSequence,</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ...</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
</FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; Later on the text defines ArchiveTimeStampSequence 
as:</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
ArchiveTimeStampSequence ::= SEQUENCE OF</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
ArchiveTimeStampChain and </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ArchiveTimeStampChain ::= SEQUENCE OF 
ArchiveTimeStamp</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
and</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
ArchiveTimeStamp ::= SEQUENCE {</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; digestAlgorithm [0] 
AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL,</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reducedHashtree [1] SEQUENCE OF 
PartialHashtree OPTIONAL,</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
timeStamp&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ContentInfo}</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PartialHashtree ::= 
SEQUENCE OF OCTET STRING</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt; Note that this information is spread all around the document, 
</FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; rather than presented in sequence which does not 
ease its reading.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
ContentInfo is supposed to carry a TST. This means that </FONT><BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt; timeStamp should be defined as TimeStampToken rather than 
ContentInfo.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>timeStamp was defined as a ContentInfo to allow a type other 
than TimeStampToken to be used.&nbsp; </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; There is no explanation in 
section 4.1 (top of page 11) to </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; know on which data 
the digest contained in the TimeStampToken </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; is 
computed. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2>This info appears in Section 4 (middle of page 10): "The root 
hash value, which represents unambiguously all data objects, is 
timestamped."</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; If another kind of time-stamp 
token would need to be carried, </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; the syntax would 
need to be changed. This comes into </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; contradiction 
with the following sentence :</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Other types of timestamp MAY be used, if they 
contain time data,</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; timestamped 
data and a cryptographically secure </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; confirmation 
from the</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; TSA of these 
data.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>See above.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; CryptoInfos from 
EvidenceRecord should be suppressed, since </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; it is 
not proven that this additional item will ever be </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
useful: encryption techniques may be different for each data </FONT><BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt; item and thus cannot apply globally at the level of an 
EvidenceRecord.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; EncryptionInfo should be suppressed 
too. No interoperability </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; can be obtained on these 
two fields using this specification.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>This comment was made during a previous last call and resulted 
in Tobias' posting to the list a few instances of structures that could be 
conveyed in these fields.&nbsp; These could be defined in a peer document or 
defined in this draft.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; ArchiveTimeStampSequence is a 
sequence of </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; ArchiveTimeStampChain which is itself a 
sequence of </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; ArchiveTimeStamp. However, there is no 
way to make a </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; difference between an 
ArchiveTimeStampChain and an </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
ArchiveTimeStampSequence. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2>The two are not used interchangably.&nbsp; Why is this a 
problem?</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; If within 
an EvidenceRecord, one element within of an </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
archiveTimeStampSequence is suppressed (e.g. a </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
ArchiveTimeStamp) this is not detectable. What is the real </FONT><BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt; value of the EvidenceRecord structure ? One would expect that 
</FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; an EvidenceRecord includes a time stamp. However, 
it does not not.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>Why would one element be suppressed?&nbsp; What would you want 
to have happen in this case?&nbsp; As-is, verification would fail.&nbsp; I have 
commented previously that it might be better if the chain supported shallow 
verification, which would enable you to suppress a contiguous set of elements 
from the beginning of the chain up to the point from which verification was 
desired.&nbsp; There was no support for making a change along these lines, and 
there seemed to be no real need to have this feature.&nbsp; </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2>What do you mean the EvidenceRecord does not include a 
timestamp?&nbsp; It includes ArchiveTimeStampSequence, which may have one or 
more timestamps.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; The current draft does not allow 
to apply the processing </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; recursively. Having 
constructed one EvidenceRecord (that </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; would include 
a time stamp), it is currently not possible to </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
construct another one using a previous one. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2>An EvidenceRecord is a wrapper around an 
ArchiveTimeStampSequence.&nbsp; The draft describes how to add additional 
ArchiveTimeStamps to the last ArchiveTimeStampChain in an 
ArchiveTimeStampSequence as well as how to add a new ArchiveTimeStampChain to 
the ArchiveTimeStampSequence.&nbsp; I don't disagree that trying to follow 
discussion of these three similarly-named structures is difficult, but have 
failed to come up with clearer alternative suggestions.&nbsp; </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; This document is supposed to apply 
to a long term archive </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; service. However, there is 
no signature from an archive </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; service. The TSA 
should not be confused with a Archive </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; Authority. 
With the current structure the Archive service may </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
not be held responsible of the storage of the data.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>This document defines a syntax for representing a chain of 
cryptographic evidence.&nbsp; This syntax may be used by an archive 
service.&nbsp; However, no archive service is required to produce an evidence 
record.&nbsp; Archive service signatures are addressed in the context of a 
protocol for interacting with an archive service.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; The draft claims to protect 
against weak algorithms or keys. </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; However, it does 
not make a clear and clean separation </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; between the 
cases of :</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the key of a Time-Stamping Unit has been 
compromised,</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; -&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; an 
asymmetric algorithm has been broken for a given key size,</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt; -&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a hash algorithm exhibits 
collisions.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; With 
"Timestamp renewal" the text omits to say that it is </FONT><BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt; necessary using "out of bands means" that a given key from a 
</FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; Time Stamping Unit has been compromised or a that 
given </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; asymmetric algorithm has been broken for a 
given key size.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>This should be clarified.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; "Hash-Tree renewal" would 
apply when hash algorithm exhibits </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; collisions. 
However a complete reconstruction is needed and </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; it 
is not clearly explained which data from the previous </FONT><BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt; structure may re-used.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt; Appendix A contains an annex and it is not said whether it is 
</FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; informative or normative.</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt; Nevertheless, the benefits of the inclusion of an </FONT><BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt; EvidenceRecord as an unsigned attribute are not explained. 
</FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; The advantages and drawbacks of each case is not 
explained either.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>Good point.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; CONCLUSION</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; In my opinion, none of these documents 
is ready to be sent to </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; the IESG and it does not 
make sense to send ERS alone. The </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; usefulness of the 
whole work is very questionable. These </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; documents 
are not mature and contain numerous typos.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>We should not cloud the review of ERS by referring to typos in 
-ari and -validate.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
The primary question is : " Is this work really needed ?". SC </FONT><BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt; 27 has issued ISO 18014-3: </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; "Time-stamp 
services. Mechanisms producing linked tokens" </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; that 
is very close.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; It 
would be interesting that the authors position their </FONT><BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt; documents towards the ISO standard. Duplication of work 
</FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; should be avoided. If there is no duplication, then 
this </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; should be explained in an informative annex. 
If no acceptable </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; explanations may be given, then 
this work should be stopped.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>The ISO drafts have been discussed on the list and are 
referenced by this document as a source for alternative timestamp 
formats.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; P.S. I spent several hours to 
read the documents and to write </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; this message, 
</FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; but 
I do not have the time available to sustain long </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
discussions on that topic.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>Thanks for the review.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; Denis</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt; </FONT></P>
<HR>
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From: owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org]
On Behalf Of Denis Pinkas
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 8:50 AM
To: ietf-smime@imc.org
Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; Russ Housley; Tobias Gondrom
Subject: Re: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Call:
draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd


Thank you for your quick response. I will make a quicker answer. You said:
 
" The ISO drafts have been discussed on the list and are referenced by this
document as a source for alternative timestamp formats".
 
Why is the ISO format insufficient ? Why was there a need to develop these
documents ?
Unless the responses to these questions are given and added to the document,

I do not think that the documents should continue to progress. 
[CRW] Can you summarize why you feel the ISO formats obviate the need for
ERS?  Other working group members have sought to use these formats as
alternatives to RFC3161 timestamps within an EvidenceRecord.


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  <FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org 
  [mailto:owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Denis 
  Pinkas<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 11, 2007 8:50 AM<BR><B>To:</B> 
  ietf-smime@imc.org<BR><B>Cc:</B> ietf-ltans@imc.org; Russ Housley; Tobias 
  Gondrom<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - 
  RE: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 
  23rd<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>Thank you for your quick response. I will make a quicker answer.&nbsp;You 
  said:</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>" <FONT size=2>The ISO drafts have been discussed on the list and are 
  referenced by this document as a source for alternative timestamp 
  formats".</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2>Why is the ISO format insufficient ? Why was there a need to 
  develop these documents ?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2>Unless the responses to these questions are given and added 
  to the document, </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2>I do not think that the documents should continue to 
  progress.<SPAN class=963221814-11012007><FONT face=Arial 
  color=#0000ff>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2><SPAN class=963221814-11012007><FONT face=Arial 
  color=#0000ff>[CRW] Can you summarize why you feel the ISO formats obviate the 
  need for ERS?</FONT>&nbsp;<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff> Other working group 
  members have sought to use these formats as alternatives to RFC3161 timestamps 
  within an EvidenceRecord.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Thu Jan 11 10:17:51 2007
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Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 15:45:37 +0100
From: "Denis Pinkas" <denis.pinkas@bull.net>
To: "Carl Wallace" <CWallace@cygnacom.com>,
        "ietf-smime@imc.org" <ietf-smime@imc.org>
Cc: "ietf-ltans@imc.org" <ietf-ltans@imc.org>,
        "Russ Housley" <housley@vigilsec.com>,
        "Tobias Gondrom" <tgondrom@opentext.com>
Subject: Re: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG  - RE: WG Last Ca	ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd
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Carl,

Please do not reverse the question. ISO 18014-3 already exists. The WG has to justify why it would not fulfill its needs.
I will refine my question: Why is a profile of ISO 18014-3 not adequate to fulfill the needs ?
A profile would make sense, since ISO 18014-3 has many options.

Denis







From: owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Denis Pinkas
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 8:50 AM
To: ietf-smime@imc.org
Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; Russ Housley; Tobias Gondrom
Subject: Re: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd


Thank you for your quick response. I will make a quicker answer. You said:

" The ISO drafts have been discussed on the list and are referenced by this document as a source for alternative timestamp formats".

Why is the ISO format insufficient ? Why was there a need to develop these documents ?
Unless the responses to these questions are given and added to the document, 
I do not think that the documents should continue to progress. 
[CRW] Can you summarize why you feel the ISO formats obviate the need for ERS?  Other working group members have sought to use these formats as alternatives to RFC3161 timestamps within an EvidenceRecord.

--=====003_Dragon467742503416_=====
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<DIV>Carl,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Please do not reverse the question. ISO 18014-3 already exists. The WG has 
to justify why it would not fulfill its needs.</DIV>
<DIV>I will refine my question: Why is a profile of ISO 18014-3 not adequate to 
fulfill the needs ?</DIV>
<DIV>A profile would make sense, since ISO 18014-3 has&nbsp;many options.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Denis</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<HR>
</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
  <HR tabIndex=-1>
  <FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org 
  [mailto:owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Denis 
  Pinkas<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 11, 2007 8:50 AM<BR><B>To:</B> 
  ietf-smime@imc.org<BR><B>Cc:</B> ietf-ltans@imc.org; Russ Housley; Tobias 
  Gondrom<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - 
  RE: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 
  23rd<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>Thank you for your quick response. I will make a quicker answer.&nbsp;You 
  said:</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>" <FONT size=2>The ISO drafts have been discussed on the list and are 
  referenced by this document as a source for alternative timestamp 
  formats".</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2>Why is the ISO format insufficient ? Why was there a need to 
  develop these documents ?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2>Unless the responses to these questions are given and added 
  to the document, </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2>I do not think that the documents should continue to 
  progress.<SPAN class=963221814-11012007><FONT face=Arial 
  color=#0000ff>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2><SPAN class=963221814-11012007><FONT face=Arial 
  color=#0000ff>[CRW] Can you summarize why you feel the ISO formats obviate the 
  need for ERS?</FONT>&nbsp;<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff> Other working group 
  members have sought to use these formats as alternatives to RFC3161 timestamps 
  within an EvidenceRecord.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<HR>
</BODY></HTML>

--=====003_Dragon467742503416_=====--






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From: Carl Wallace <CWallace@cygnacom.com>
To: Denis Pinkas <denis.pinkas@bull.net>, ietf-smime@imc.org
Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org, Tobias Gondrom <tgondrom@opentext.com>,
        Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: RE: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG  - RE: WG Las
	t Ca	ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd
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My response wasn't a reversal of the question but a request for details.
Folks on the list have previously discussed these specifications, including
their use within an EvidenceRecord.  You made a sweeping comment that lacked
any details and called for fairly drastic measures.  I simply asked for
justification.


  _____  

From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net] 
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 9:46 AM
To: Carl Wallace; ietf-smime@imc.org
Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; Russ Housley; Tobias Gondrom
Subject: Re: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last
Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd


Carl,
 
Please do not reverse the question. ISO 18014-3 already exists. The WG has
to justify why it would not fulfill its needs.
I will refine my question: Why is a profile of ISO 18014-3 not adequate to
fulfill the needs ?
A profile would make sense, since ISO 18014-3 has many options.
 
Denis


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<BODY>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=901581015-11012007><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff size=2>My response&nbsp;wasn't a reversal of the question but a 
request for details.&nbsp; Folks on the list have previously discussed these 
specifications, including their use within an EvidenceRecord.&nbsp; You made a 
sweeping comment that lacked any details and called for fairly drastic 
measures.&nbsp; I simply asked for justification.</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
  <HR tabIndex=-1>
  <FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Denis Pinkas 
  [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 11, 2007 
  9:46 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Carl Wallace; ietf-smime@imc.org<BR><B>Cc:</B> 
  ietf-ltans@imc.org; Russ Housley; Tobias Gondrom<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: RE: 
  RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca 
  ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>Carl,</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Please do not reverse the question. ISO 18014-3 already exists. The WG 
  has to justify why it would not fulfill its needs.</DIV>
  <DIV>I will refine my question: Why is a profile of ISO 18014-3 not adequate 
  to fulfill the needs ?</DIV>
  <DIV>A profile would make sense, since ISO 18014-3 has&nbsp;many 
options.</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Denis</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C73593.6AB6E266--




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Subject: RE: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG  - RE: WG Last Ca	ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd
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Carl:
=20
I think Denis asks simply for the justification for the introduction of =
new
technology to solve a problem which may already be solved with an =
existing ISO
standard (which has already been published and is presumably more mature =
than
what is being proposed).
=20
Denis notes (in his previous comment) that perhaps the ISO standard =
offers too
many options and that perhaps a Profile of this ISO standard might be =
published
as an RFC to tailor the ISO standard for the specific application(s) you =
have in
mind.  In such a case the RFC should profile (see ISO/IEC TR10000) the =
ISO
standard and not introduce new technology.
=20
Tony

=20

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org =
[mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On
Behalf Of Carl Wallace
Sent: January 11, 2007 10:16 AM
To: Denis Pinkas; ietf-smime@imc.org
Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; Tobias Gondrom; Russ Housley
Subject: RE: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG =
Last Ca
ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd


My response wasn't a reversal of the question but a request for details. =
 Folks
on the list have previously discussed these specifications, including =
their use
within an EvidenceRecord.  You made a sweeping comment that lacked any =
details
and called for fairly drastic measures.  I simply asked for =
justification.


  _____ =20

From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net]=20
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 9:46 AM
To: Carl Wallace; ietf-smime@imc.org
Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; Russ Housley; Tobias Gondrom
Subject: Re: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG =
Last Ca
ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd


Carl,
=20
Please do not reverse the question. ISO 18014-3 already exists. The WG =
has to
justify why it would not fulfill its needs.
I will refine my question: Why is a profile of ISO 18014-3 not adequate =
to
fulfill the needs ?
A profile would make sense, since ISO 18014-3 has many options.
=20
Denis


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<TITLE>Message</TITLE>

<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.5730.11" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D929275615-11012007>Carl:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D929275615-11012007></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D929275615-11012007>I=20
think Denis asks simply for the justification for the introduction =
of&nbsp;new=20
technology to solve a problem which may already be solved with an =
existing ISO=20
standard (which has already been published and is presumably more mature =
than=20
what is being proposed).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D929275615-11012007></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D929275615-11012007>Denis&nbsp;notes (in his previous comment) =
that perhaps=20
the ISO standard offers too many options and that perhaps a Profile of =
this ISO=20
standard might be published as an RFC to tailor the ISO standard for the =

specific application(s) you have in mind.&nbsp; In such a case the RFC =
should=20
profile (see ISO/IEC TR10000) the ISO standard and not introduce new=20
technology.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D929275615-11012007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Tony</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org=20
[mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Carl=20
Wallace<BR><B>Sent:</B> January 11, 2007 10:16 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Denis =
Pinkas;=20
ietf-smime@imc.org<BR><B>Cc:</B> ietf-ltans@imc.org; Tobias Gondrom; =
Russ=20
Housley<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from =
LTANS WG -=20
RE: WG Last Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan=20
23rd<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D901581015-11012007><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>My response&nbsp;wasn't a reversal of the =
question but a=20
request for details.&nbsp; Folks on the list have previously discussed =
these=20
specifications, including their use within an EvidenceRecord.&nbsp; You =
made a=20
sweeping comment that lacked any details and called for fairly drastic=20
measures.&nbsp; I simply asked for =
justification.</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Denis Pinkas=20
  [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 11, =
2007=20
  9:46 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Carl Wallace; ietf-smime@imc.org<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
  ietf-ltans@imc.org; Russ Housley; Tobias Gondrom<BR><B>Subject:</B> =
Re: RE:=20
  RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca=20
  ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>Carl,</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Please do not reverse the question. ISO 18014-3 already exists. =
The WG=20
  has to justify why it would not fulfill its needs.</DIV>
  <DIV>I will refine my question: Why is a profile of ISO 18014-3 not =
adequate=20
  to fulfill the needs ?</DIV>
  <DIV>A profile would make sense, since ISO 18014-3 has&nbsp;many=20
options.</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Denis</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C73570.399A20C0--




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From: Carl Wallace <CWallace@cygnacom.com>
To: Tony Capel <capel@comgate.com>, "'Denis Pinkas'" <denis.pinkas@bull.net>,
        ietf-smime@imc.org
Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org, "'Tobias Gondrom'" <tgondrom@opentext.com>,
        "'Russ Housley'" <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: RE: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG  - RE: WG Las
	t Ca	ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 12:08:27 -0500
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Tony,
 
I think Denis should provide additional details when calling for a working
group item to be dropped, especially when making this request this late in
the process with non-freely available documents as the basis.  However, I'll
try to make the case in the other direction.
 
I don't think it's simply a case of too many options that require profiling.
One motivation often cited during the development of ERS is support for
aggregations of data.  This is represented in ERS via the reducedHashtree
field in the ArchiveTimeStamp structure.  This field and the related
ArchiveTimeStampChain and ArchiveTimeStampSequence structures allow handling
of the aggregation when the initial timestamp is generated, when simple
timestamp renewal is required as well as when simple timestamp renewal is
not sufficient and the original data must be hashed again.
 
The ISO spec uses the ExtRenewal extension for timestamp renewal.  This is
roughly analogous to the timestamp renewal feature in ERS.  However, there
does not seem to be sufficient support for cases where the hash algorithm is
updated and the original data must be rehashed.  In ERS, when a hash
algorithm update is necessary, the preceding timestamp tokens are hashed
along with the original data.  In the ISO spec, an existing timestamp token
is presented for renewal but the original data is not.  It may be possible
to make this work using the extHash extension, but I don't see any
description of this in the current spec (nor do I see any text that
describes verification of the ExtRenewal extension).  I don't follow how the
aggregation mechanisms in the ISO spec can be used to aggregate data for the
initial timestamp well enough to compare them to ERS.  
 
ERS support for aggregation is more clearly stated and ERS provides more
complete handling of renewal operations.  For these reasons, I think we
should proceed with ERS instead of trying to enhance the ISO spec.
 
Carl


  _____  

From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com] 
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 11:04 AM
To: 'Carl Wallace'; 'Denis Pinkas'; ietf-smime@imc.org
Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; 'Tobias Gondrom'; 'Russ Housley'
Subject: RE: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last
Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd


Carl:
 
I think Denis asks simply for the justification for the introduction of new
technology to solve a problem which may already be solved with an existing
ISO standard (which has already been published and is presumably more mature
than what is being proposed).
 
Denis notes (in his previous comment) that perhaps the ISO standard offers
too many options and that perhaps a Profile of this ISO standard might be
published as an RFC to tailor the ISO standard for the specific
application(s) you have in mind.  In such a case the RFC should profile (see
ISO/IEC TR10000) the ISO standard and not introduce new technology.
 
Tony

 

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org]
On Behalf Of Carl Wallace
Sent: January 11, 2007 10:16 AM
To: Denis Pinkas; ietf-smime@imc.org
Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; Tobias Gondrom; Russ Housley
Subject: RE: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last
Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd


My response wasn't a reversal of the question but a request for details.
Folks on the list have previously discussed these specifications, including
their use within an EvidenceRecord.  You made a sweeping comment that lacked
any details and called for fairly drastic measures.  I simply asked for
justification.


  _____  

From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net] 
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 9:46 AM
To: Carl Wallace; ietf-smime@imc.org
Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; Russ Housley; Tobias Gondrom
Subject: Re: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last
Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd


Carl,
 
Please do not reverse the question. ISO 18014-3 already exists. The WG has
to justify why it would not fulfill its needs.
I will refine my question: Why is a profile of ISO 18014-3 not adequate to
fulfill the needs ?
A profile would make sense, since ISO 18014-3 has many options.
 
Denis


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<TITLE>Message</TITLE>

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<BODY>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=431170716-11012007>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=431170716-11012007><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff size=2>Tony,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=431170716-11012007><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=431170716-11012007><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff size=2>I think Denis should provide additional details when 
calling for a working group item to be dropped, especially when making this 
request this late in the process<SPAN class=451495016-11012007> </SPAN>with 
non-freely available documents as the basis.&nbsp; However, I'll try to make the 
case in the other direction.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=431170716-11012007><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=431170716-11012007><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff size=2>I don't think it's simply a case of too many options that 
require profiling.&nbsp; One motivation often cited during the development of 
ERS is support for aggregations of data.&nbsp; This is represented in ERS via 
the reducedHashtree field in the ArchiveTimeStamp structure.&nbsp; This field 
and the related ArchiveTimeStampChain and ArchiveTimeStampSequence structures 
allow handling of the aggregation when the initial timestamp is&nbsp;generated, 
when&nbsp;simple timestamp renewal is&nbsp;required as well as when simple 
timestamp renewal is not sufficient and the original data must be hashed 
again.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN 
class=431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN class=431170716-11012007><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=431170716-11012007><FONT face=Arial><FONT 
color=#0000ff><FONT size=2>The ISO spec uses the&nbsp;<SPAN 
class=451495016-11012007>E</SPAN>xt<SPAN 
class=451495016-11012007>R</SPAN>enewal&nbsp;<SPAN 
class=451495016-11012007>extension</SPAN> for timestamp renewal.&nbsp; This is 
roughly analogous to the&nbsp;timestamp renewal feature in ERS.&nbsp; However, 
there does not seem to be sufficient support for cases where the hash algorithm 
is updated and the original data must be rehashed.&nbsp; In ERS, when a hash 
algorithm update is necessary, the preceding timestamp tokens are hashed along 
with the original data.&nbsp; In the ISO spec, an existing timestamp token is 
presented for renewal but the original data is not.&nbsp; It may be possible to 
make this work using the extHash extension, but I don't see any description of 
this in the current spec (nor do I see any text that describes verification of 
the&nbsp;<SPAN class=451495016-11012007>E</SPAN>xt<SPAN 
class=451495016-11012007>R</SPAN>enewal extension).&nbsp; I&nbsp;<SPAN 
class=451495016-11012007>don't </SPAN>follow how the aggregation mechanisms in 
the ISO spec can be used to aggregate data for the initial timestamp well enough 
to compare them to ERS.&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=431170716-11012007><FONT face=Arial><FONT 
color=#0000ff><FONT size=2></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=431170716-11012007><FONT face=Arial><FONT 
color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN class=451495016-11012007>ERS support for 
aggregation is more clearly stated and&nbsp;ERS provides more complete handling 
of renewal operations.&nbsp; For these reasons, I think we should proceed with 
ERS instead of&nbsp;trying to enhance&nbsp;the ISO 
spec.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN 
class=431170716-11012007><SPAN class=451495016-11012007></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN 
class=431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN class=431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN 
class=431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN class=431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN 
class=431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN class=431170716-11012007><SPAN 
class=451495016-11012007></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=431170716-11012007><FONT 
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=431170716-11012007><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff size=2>Carl</FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
  <HR tabIndex=-1>
  <FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com] 
  <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 11, 2007 11:04 AM<BR><B>To:</B> 'Carl 
  Wallace'; 'Denis Pinkas'; ietf-smime@imc.org<BR><B>Cc:</B> ietf-ltans@imc.org; 
  'Tobias Gondrom'; 'Russ Housley'<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: RE: RE: Cross review 
  of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- 
  untilJan 23rd<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
  class=929275615-11012007>Carl:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
  class=929275615-11012007></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929275615-11012007>I 
  think Denis asks simply for the justification for the introduction of&nbsp;new 
  technology to solve a problem which may already be solved with an existing ISO 
  standard (which has already been published and is presumably more mature than 
  what is being proposed).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
  class=929275615-11012007></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
  class=929275615-11012007>Denis&nbsp;notes (in his previous comment) that 
  perhaps the ISO standard offers too many options and that perhaps a Profile of 
  this ISO standard might be published as an RFC to tailor the ISO standard for 
  the specific application(s) you have in mind.&nbsp; In such a case the RFC 
  should profile (see ISO/IEC TR10000) the ISO standard and not introduce new 
  technology.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=929275615-11012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>Tony</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <P><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT 
  face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> 
  owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] <B>On 
  Behalf Of </B>Carl Wallace<BR><B>Sent:</B> January 11, 2007 10:16 
  AM<BR><B>To:</B> Denis Pinkas; ietf-smime@imc.org<BR><B>Cc:</B> 
  ietf-ltans@imc.org; Tobias Gondrom; Russ Housley<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: RE: 
  RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca 
  ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=901581015-11012007><FONT face=Arial 
  color=#0000ff size=2>My response&nbsp;wasn't a reversal of the question but a 
  request for details.&nbsp; Folks on the list have previously discussed these 
  specifications, including their use within an EvidenceRecord.&nbsp; You made a 
  sweeping comment that lacked any details and called for fairly drastic 
  measures.&nbsp; I simply asked for justification.</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE 
  style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
    <HR tabIndex=-1>
    <FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Denis Pinkas 
    [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 11, 2007 
    9:46 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Carl Wallace; ietf-smime@imc.org<BR><B>Cc:</B> 
    ietf-ltans@imc.org; Russ Housley; Tobias Gondrom<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: RE: 
    RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca 
    ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
    <DIV></DIV>
    <DIV>Carl,</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Please do not reverse the question. ISO 18014-3 already exists. The WG 
    has to justify why it would not fulfill its needs.</DIV>
    <DIV>I will refine my question: Why is a profile of ISO 18014-3 not adequate 
    to fulfill the needs ?</DIV>
    <DIV>A profile would make sense, since ISO 18014-3 has&nbsp;many 
    options.</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Denis</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Subject: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG  - RE: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- until Jan 23rd
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 19:02:01 +0100
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From: "Tobias Gondrom" <tgondrom@opentext.com>
To: "Denis Pinkas" <denis.pinkas@bull.net>
Cc: <ietf-ltans@imc.org>, "Russ Housley" <housley@vigilsec.com>,
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Hi Denis,=20

=20

Thank you for your time and the review. As Carl already commented on
most of your comments, and I fully agree with him, I will only add a few
things:

=20

1. At first to set one thing straight:

The ERS document has been discussed extensively over the last two years
and there have been literally hundreds of emails with comments and
discussion about it on the mailing-list and there are world wide several
companies who already implemented ERS some months ago (based o the draft
versions 5-8 which are very similar to version 9). So I can only assume
that you are not talking about ERS but about validate or ari, which are
like add-ons to explain ERS further but still very young  - those two
documents documents are NOT in WGLC - only ERS!

(note: the work on the next version of validate with the new second
author is currently in progress and a new version should be ready in
about 3-4 weeks.)

=20

2. I will propose to LTANS improvements according to the last two
comments in your review:=20

a) make the separation of the protection mechanisms clearer=20

> -     the key of a Time-Stamping Unit has been compromised,=20
> -     an asymmetric algorithm has been broken for a given key size,=20
> -     a hash algorithm exhibits collisions.=20
and

b) clarify whether Appendix A's annex is informative or normative and
explain the benefits of including an EvidenceRecord as an unsigned
attribute.

=20

So again also from my side, thank you for your review.

=20

            Tobias

=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

________________________________

From: Carl Wallace [mailto:CWallace@cygnacom.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 2:00 PM
To: Denis Pinkas; ietf-smime@imc.org
Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; Russ Housley; Tobias Gondrom
Subject: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Call:
draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- until Jan 23rd

=20

Comments inline...=20

> From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net]=20
> Subject: Re: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG=20
> Last Call: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- until Jan 23rd=20
>=20
>=20
> Nearly no comments were sent on the LTANS mailing list on=20
> these documents.=20

There is just one document that has been submitted for working group
last call.=20

> It may be questionable why. The fact is that these documents=20
> are badly written, and thus it takes an enormous amount of=20
> time to attempt to understand them.=20
>=20
> Even though, most readers will fail, but will not dare to=20
> report that they did.=20
> I am unsure that I understood them, but I dare to report it.=20
>=20
> This draft and its companion documents namely=20
> draft-ietf-ltans-ari-00 and draft-ietf-ltans-validate-00=20
> raise a number of questions to be solved.=20

These two drafts were prepared quickly in advance of the last working
group meeting.  During the meeting, a call was made for additional
co-authors to help clarify and complete the documents.  One person has
joined Tobias in this effort but no follow-up drafts have been released
yet.

> Let us look now at the details of ERS.=20
>=20
> No ASN.1 compiler has been used to validate the syntax,=20
> otherwise, it would have been noticed that there is an=20
> obvious ASN.1 error on EvidenceRecord.=20

The ASN.1 was changed as a result of comments during the previous
working group last call.  Minor errors can be corrected without much
cause for alarm.  I assume in this case you are referring to the missing
's' at the end of EncryptionInfo.  Also, the id-EvidenceRecord-Internal
and id-EvidenceRecord-External values are missing OBJECT IDENTIFIER. =20

>=20
>    EvidenceRecord ::=3D SEQUENCE {=20
>       version                   INTEGER { v1(1) } ,=20
>       digestAlgorithms          SEQUENCE OF AlgorithmIdentifier,=20
>       cryptoInfos               [0] CryptoInfos OPTIONAL,=20
>       encryptionInfo            [1] EncryptionInfo OPTIONAL,=20
>       archiveTimeStampSequence  ArchiveTimeStampSequence,=20
>       ...=20
>       }=20
>=20
> Later on the text defines ArchiveTimeStampSequence as:=20
>=20
>    ArchiveTimeStampSequence ::=3D SEQUENCE OF=20
>                                 ArchiveTimeStampChain and=20
>=20
>    ArchiveTimeStampChain ::=3D SEQUENCE OF ArchiveTimeStamp=20
>=20
> and=20
>=20
>    ArchiveTimeStamp ::=3D SEQUENCE {=20
>      digestAlgorithm [0] AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL,=20
>      reducedHashtree [1] SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree OPTIONAL,=20
>      timeStamp       ContentInfo}=20
>=20
>    PartialHashtree ::=3D SEQUENCE OF OCTET STRING=20
>=20
> Note that this information is spread all around the document,=20
> rather than presented in sequence which does not ease its reading.=20
>=20
> ContentInfo is supposed to carry a TST. This means that=20
> timeStamp should be defined as TimeStampToken rather than ContentInfo.


timeStamp was defined as a ContentInfo to allow a type other than
TimeStampToken to be used. =20

>=20
> There is no explanation in section 4.1 (top of page 11) to=20
> know on which data the digest contained in the TimeStampToken=20
> is computed.=20

This info appears in Section 4 (middle of page 10): "The root hash
value, which represents unambiguously all data objects, is timestamped."

>=20
> If another kind of time-stamp token would need to be carried,=20
> the syntax would need to be changed. This comes into=20
> contradiction with the following sentence :=20
>=20
>    Other types of timestamp MAY be used, if they contain time data,=20
>    timestamped data and a cryptographically secure=20
> confirmation from the=20
>    TSA of these data.=20

See above.=20

>=20
> CryptoInfos from EvidenceRecord should be suppressed, since=20
> it is not proven that this additional item will ever be=20
> useful: encryption techniques may be different for each data=20
> item and thus cannot apply globally at the level of an EvidenceRecord.

> EncryptionInfo should be suppressed too. No interoperability=20
> can be obtained on these two fields using this specification.=20

This comment was made during a previous last call and resulted in
Tobias' posting to the list a few instances of structures that could be
conveyed in these fields.  These could be defined in a peer document or
defined in this draft.

 =20
> ArchiveTimeStampSequence is a sequence of=20
> ArchiveTimeStampChain which is itself a sequence of=20
> ArchiveTimeStamp. However, there is no way to make a=20
> difference between an ArchiveTimeStampChain and an=20
> ArchiveTimeStampSequence.=20

The two are not used interchangably.  Why is this a problem?=20
 =20
> If within an EvidenceRecord, one element within of an=20
> archiveTimeStampSequence is suppressed (e.g. a=20
> ArchiveTimeStamp) this is not detectable. What is the real=20
> value of the EvidenceRecord structure ? One would expect that=20
> an EvidenceRecord includes a time stamp. However, it does not not.=20

Why would one element be suppressed?  What would you want to have happen
in this case?  As-is, verification would fail.  I have commented
previously that it might be better if the chain supported shallow
verification, which would enable you to suppress a contiguous set of
elements from the beginning of the chain up to the point from which
verification was desired.  There was no support for making a change
along these lines, and there seemed to be no real need to have this
feature. =20

What do you mean the EvidenceRecord does not include a timestamp?  It
includes ArchiveTimeStampSequence, which may have one or more
timestamps.

 =20
> The current draft does not allow to apply the processing=20
> recursively. Having constructed one EvidenceRecord (that=20
> would include a time stamp), it is currently not possible to=20
> construct another one using a previous one.=20

An EvidenceRecord is a wrapper around an ArchiveTimeStampSequence.  The
draft describes how to add additional ArchiveTimeStamps to the last
ArchiveTimeStampChain in an ArchiveTimeStampSequence as well as how to
add a new ArchiveTimeStampChain to the ArchiveTimeStampSequence.  I
don't disagree that trying to follow discussion of these three
similarly-named structures is difficult, but have failed to come up with
clearer alternative suggestions. =20

 =20
> This document is supposed to apply to a long term archive=20
> service. However, there is no signature from an archive=20
> service. The TSA should not be confused with a Archive=20
> Authority. With the current structure the Archive service may=20
> not be held responsible of the storage of the data.=20

This document defines a syntax for representing a chain of cryptographic
evidence.  This syntax may be used by an archive service.  However, no
archive service is required to produce an evidence record.  Archive
service signatures are addressed in the context of a protocol for
interacting with an archive service.

 =20
> The draft claims to protect against weak algorithms or keys.=20
> However, it does not make a clear and clean separation=20
> between the cases of :=20
>=20
> -     the key of a Time-Stamping Unit has been compromised,=20
> -     an asymmetric algorithm has been broken for a given key size,=20
> -     a hash algorithm exhibits collisions.=20
>=20
> With "Timestamp renewal" the text omits to say that it is=20
> necessary using "out of bands means" that a given key from a=20
> Time Stamping Unit has been compromised or a that given=20
> asymmetric algorithm has been broken for a given key size.=20

This should be clarified.=20

>=20
> "Hash-Tree renewal" would apply when hash algorithm exhibits=20
> collisions. However a complete reconstruction is needed and=20
> it is not clearly explained which data from the previous=20
> structure may re-used.=20
>=20
> Appendix A contains an annex and it is not said whether it is=20
> informative or normative.=20
> Nevertheless, the benefits of the inclusion of an=20
> EvidenceRecord as an unsigned attribute are not explained.=20
> The advantages and drawbacks of each case is not explained either.=20

Good point.=20

>=20
> CONCLUSION=20
>=20
> In my opinion, none of these documents is ready to be sent to=20
> the IESG and it does not make sense to send ERS alone. The=20
> usefulness of the whole work is very questionable. These=20
> documents are not mature and contain numerous typos.=20

We should not cloud the review of ERS by referring to typos in -ari and
-validate.=20
 =20
> The primary question is : " Is this work really needed ?". SC=20
> 27 has issued ISO 18014-3:=20
> "Time-stamp services. Mechanisms producing linked tokens"=20
> that is very close.=20
>=20
> It would be interesting that the authors position their=20
> documents towards the ISO standard. Duplication of work=20
> should be avoided. If there is no duplication, then this=20
> should be explained in an informative annex. If no acceptable=20
> explanations may be given, then this work should be stopped.=20

The ISO drafts have been discussed on the list and are referenced by
this document as a source for alternative timestamp formats.

>=20
> P.S. I spent several hours to read the documents and to write=20
> this message,=20
>         but I do not have the time available to sustain long=20
> discussions on that topic.=20

Thanks for the review.=20

>=20
> Denis=20
>=20


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<body lang=3DDE link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue>

<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hi Denis, =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Thank you for =
your time and
the review. As Carl already commented on most of your comments, and I =
fully agree
with him, I will only add a few things:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>1. At first to =
set one thing
straight:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The ERS document =
has been
discussed extensively over the last two years and there have been =
literally hundreds
of emails with comments and discussion about it on the mailing-list and =
there
are world wide several companies who already implemented ERS some months =
ago
(based o the draft versions 5-8 which are very similar to version 9). So =
I can
only assume that you are not talking about ERS but about validate or =
ari, which
are like add-ons to explain ERS further but still very young =
&nbsp;&#8211; those
two documents documents are NOT in WGLC &#8211; only =
ERS!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>(note: the work =
on the next
version of validate with the new second author is currently in progress =
and a
new version should be ready in about 3-4 =
weeks.)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>2. I will =
propose to
LTANS improvements according to the last two comments in your review: =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>a) make the =
separation of
the protection mechanisms clearer <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; -&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the key of a
Time-Stamping Unit has been compromised,</span></font><span =
lang=3DEN-GB> <br>
</span><font size=3D2><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;
-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; an asymmetric algorithm has been broken for a =
given
key size,</span></font><span lang=3DEN-GB> <br>
</span><font size=3D2><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;
-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a hash algorithm exhibits =
collisions.</span></font><span
lang=3DEN-GB> <br>
</span><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>and<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>b) clarify =
whether
Appendix A&#8217;s annex is informative or normative and explain the =
benefits
of including an EvidenceRecord as an unsigned =
attribute.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>So again also =
from my
side, thank you for your review.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Tobias<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 4.0pt'>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</spa=
n></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
Carl Wallace [mailto:CWallace@cygnacom.com] <br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, January =
11, 2007
2:00 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Denis Pinkas;
ietf-smime@imc.org<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">ietf-ltans@imc.org</st1:PersonName>;
Russ Housley; <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">Tobias =
Gondrom</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: Cross review =
of draft
ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- until =
Jan
23rd</span></font><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Comments
inline... </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;
From: Denis Pinkas [<a =
href=3D"mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net">mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net</a>]
</span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Subject: Re: Cross =
review of
draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Last Call:
draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- until Jan 23rd</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Nearly no comments =
were sent
on the LTANS mailing list on </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; these documents. =
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>There is
just one document that has been submitted for working group last =
call.</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; It
may be questionable why. The fact is that these documents =
</span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; are badly written, =
and thus it
takes an enormous amount of </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; time to attempt to =
understand
them. </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Even though, most =
readers will
fail, but will not dare to </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; report that they =
did. </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; I am unsure that I =
understood
them, but I dare to report it.</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; This draft and its =
companion
documents namely </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; =
draft-ietf-ltans-ari-00 and
draft-ietf-ltans-validate-00 </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; raise a number of =
questions to
be solved.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>These two
drafts were prepared quickly in advance of the last working group
meeting.&nbsp; During the meeting, a call was made for additional =
co-authors to
help clarify and complete the documents.&nbsp; One person has joined =
Tobias in
this effort but no follow-up drafts have been released =
yet.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Let
us look now at the details of ERS.</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; No ASN.1 compiler =
has been
used to validate the syntax, </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; otherwise, it would =
have been
noticed that there is an </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; obvious ASN.1 error =
on
EvidenceRecord.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>The ASN.1
was changed as a result of comments during the previous working group =
last
call.&nbsp; Minor errors can be corrected without much cause for =
alarm.&nbsp; I
assume in this case you are referring to the missing 's' at the end of =
EncryptionInfo.&nbsp;
Also, the id-EvidenceRecord-Internal and id-EvidenceRecord-External =
values are
missing OBJECT IDENTIFIER.&nbsp; </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
EvidenceRecord ::=3D SEQUENCE {</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
version&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
INTEGER { v1(1) } ,</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
digestAlgorithms&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
SEQUENCE
OF AlgorithmIdentifier,</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
cryptoInfos&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
[0] CryptoInfos OPTIONAL,</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
encryptionInfo&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;
[1] EncryptionInfo OPTIONAL,</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
archiveTimeStampSequence&nbsp; ArchiveTimeStampSequence,</span></font> =
<br>
<font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
...</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
}</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Later on the text =
defines
ArchiveTimeStampSequence as:</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
ArchiveTimeStampSequence ::=3D SEQUENCE OF</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;
ArchiveTimeStampChain and </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
ArchiveTimeStampChain ::=3D SEQUENCE OF ArchiveTimeStamp</span></font> =
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; and</span></font> =
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
ArchiveTimeStamp
::=3D SEQUENCE {</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
digestAlgorithm [0] AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL,</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
reducedHashtree [1] SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree OPTIONAL,</span></font> =
<br>
<font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
timeStamp&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ContentInfo}</span></font> =
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
PartialHashtree ::=3D SEQUENCE OF OCTET STRING</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Note that this =
information is
spread all around the document, </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; rather than =
presented in
sequence which does not ease its reading.</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; ContentInfo is =
supposed to
carry a TST. This means that </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; timeStamp should be =
defined as
TimeStampToken rather than ContentInfo.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>timeStamp
was defined as a ContentInfo to allow a type other than TimeStampToken =
to be
used.&nbsp; </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; There is no =
explanation in
section 4.1 (top of page 11) to </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; know on which data =
the digest
contained in the TimeStampToken </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; is computed. =
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>This info
appears in Section 4 (middle of page 10): &quot;The root hash value, =
which
represents unambiguously all data objects, is =
timestamped.&quot;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; If another kind of =
time-stamp
token would need to be carried, </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; the syntax would =
need to be
changed. This comes into </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; contradiction with =
the
following sentence :</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Other types
of timestamp MAY be used, if they contain time data,</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
timestamped
data and a cryptographically secure </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; confirmation from =
the</span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
TSA of these
data.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>See
above.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; CryptoInfos from
EvidenceRecord should be suppressed, since </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; it is not proven =
that this
additional item will ever be </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; useful: encryption =
techniques
may be different for each data </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; item and thus =
cannot apply
globally at the level of an EvidenceRecord.</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; EncryptionInfo =
should be
suppressed too. No interoperability </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; can be obtained on =
these two
fields using this specification.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>This
comment was made during a previous last call and resulted in Tobias' =
posting to
the list a few instances of structures that could be conveyed in these
fields.&nbsp; These could be defined in a peer document or defined in =
this
draft.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; =
ArchiveTimeStampSequence is a
sequence of </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; =
ArchiveTimeStampChain which is
itself a sequence of </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; ArchiveTimeStamp. =
However,
there is no way to make a </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; difference between =
an
ArchiveTimeStampChain and an </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; =
ArchiveTimeStampSequence. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>The two
are not used interchangably.&nbsp; Why is this a problem?</span></font> =
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font> =
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; If within an =
EvidenceRecord,
one element within of an </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; =
archiveTimeStampSequence is
suppressed (e.g. a </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; ArchiveTimeStamp) =
this is not
detectable. What is the real </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; value of the =
EvidenceRecord
structure ? One would expect that </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; an EvidenceRecord =
includes a
time stamp. However, it does not not.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Why would
one element be suppressed?&nbsp; What would you want to have happen in =
this
case?&nbsp; As-is, verification would fail.&nbsp; I have commented =
previously
that it might be better if the chain supported shallow verification, =
which
would enable you to suppress a contiguous set of elements from the =
beginning of
the chain up to the point from which verification was desired.&nbsp; =
There was
no support for making a change along these lines, and there seemed to be =
no
real need to have this feature.&nbsp; </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>What do
you mean the EvidenceRecord does not include a timestamp?&nbsp; It =
includes
ArchiveTimeStampSequence, which may have one or more =
timestamps.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; The current draft =
does not
allow to apply the processing </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; recursively. Having
constructed one EvidenceRecord (that </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; would include a =
time stamp),
it is currently not possible to </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; construct another =
one using a
previous one. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>An
EvidenceRecord is a wrapper around an ArchiveTimeStampSequence.&nbsp; =
The draft
describes how to add additional ArchiveTimeStamps to the last
ArchiveTimeStampChain in an ArchiveTimeStampSequence as well as how to =
add a
new ArchiveTimeStampChain to the ArchiveTimeStampSequence.&nbsp; I don't
disagree that trying to follow discussion of these three similarly-named
structures is difficult, but have failed to come up with clearer =
alternative
suggestions.&nbsp; </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; This document is =
supposed to
apply to a long term archive </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; service. However, =
there is no
signature from an archive </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; service. The TSA =
should not be
confused with a Archive </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Authority. With the =
current
structure the Archive service may </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; not be held =
responsible of the
storage of the data.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>This
document defines a syntax for representing a chain of cryptographic
evidence.&nbsp; This syntax may be used by an archive service.&nbsp; =
However,
no archive service is required to produce an evidence record.&nbsp; =
Archive service
signatures are addressed in the context of a protocol for interacting =
with an
archive service.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; The draft claims to =
protect
against weak algorithms or keys. </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; However, it does =
not make a
clear and clean separation </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; between the cases =
of :</span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; =
-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the
key of a Time-Stamping Unit has been compromised,</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; =
-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; an
asymmetric algorithm has been broken for a given key size,</span></font> =
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; =
-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a
hash algorithm exhibits collisions.</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; With =
&quot;Timestamp
renewal&quot; the text omits to say that it is </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; necessary using =
&quot;out of
bands means&quot; that a given key from a </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Time Stamping Unit =
has been
compromised or a that given </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; asymmetric =
algorithm has been
broken for a given key size.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>This
should be clarified.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; &quot;Hash-Tree =
renewal&quot;
would apply when hash algorithm exhibits </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; collisions. However =
a complete
reconstruction is needed and </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; it is not clearly =
explained
which data from the previous </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; structure may =
re-used.</span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Appendix A contains =
an annex
and it is not said whether it is </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; informative or =
normative.</span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Nevertheless, the =
benefits of
the inclusion of an </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; EvidenceRecord as =
an unsigned
attribute are not explained. </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; The advantages and =
drawbacks
of each case is not explained either.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Good
point.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; =
CONCLUSION</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; In my opinion, none =
of these
documents is ready to be sent to </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; the IESG and it =
does not make
sense to send ERS alone. The </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; usefulness of the =
whole work
is very questionable. These </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; documents are not =
mature and
contain numerous typos.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>We should
not cloud the review of ERS by referring to typos in -ari and =
-validate.</span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font> =
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; The primary =
question is :
&quot; Is this work really needed ?&quot;. SC </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; 27 has issued ISO =
18014-3: </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; &quot;Time-stamp =
services.
Mechanisms producing linked tokens&quot; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; that is very =
close.</span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; It would be =
interesting that
the authors position their </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; documents towards =
the ISO
standard. Duplication of work </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; should be avoided. =
If there is
no duplication, then this </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; should be explained =
in an
informative annex. If no acceptable </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; explanations may be =
given,
then this work should be stopped.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>The ISO
drafts have been discussed on the list and are referenced by this =
document as a
source for alternative timestamp formats.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; P.S. I spent =
several hours to
read the documents and to write </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; this message, =
</span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;
but I do not have the time available to sustain long </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; discussions on that =
topic.</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Thanks
for the review.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Denis</span></font> =
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; =
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

</div>

</body>

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From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Thu Jan 11 13:58:21 2007
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Subject: RE: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG  - RE: WG Last Call:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 19:19:53 +0100
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From: "Tobias Gondrom" <tgondrom@opentext.com>
To: "Carl Wallace" <CWallace@cygnacom.com>, "Tony Capel" <capel@comgate.com>,
        "Denis Pinkas" <denis.pinkas@bull.net>, <ietf-smime@imc.org>
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Tony and Denis,

=20

about 12 months LTANS investigated and discussed the relationship and
use of other timestamps from the ISO-18014 family.=20

The result was that ISO-18014 timestamps/tokens could be used instead of
the RFC-3161 timestamps within the ERS structure.=20

18014-3 definitely can not replace or even be directly compared to ERS -
both specs refer to different goals and technical concepts.=20

It would be like comparing apples and oranges, to use a metaphor (for a
comparison which is not valid).=20

=20

Tobias

=20

=20

=20

________________________________

From: Carl Wallace [mailto:CWallace@cygnacom.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 6:08 PM
To: Tony Capel; 'Denis Pinkas'; ietf-smime@imc.org
Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; Tobias Gondrom; 'Russ Housley'
Subject: RE: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG
Last Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd

=20

Tony,

=20

I think Denis should provide additional details when calling for a
working group item to be dropped, especially when making this request
this late in the process with non-freely available documents as the
basis.  However, I'll try to make the case in the other direction.

=20

I don't think it's simply a case of too many options that require
profiling.  One motivation often cited during the development of ERS is
support for aggregations of data.  This is represented in ERS via the
reducedHashtree field in the ArchiveTimeStamp structure.  This field and
the related ArchiveTimeStampChain and ArchiveTimeStampSequence
structures allow handling of the aggregation when the initial timestamp
is generated, when simple timestamp renewal is required as well as when
simple timestamp renewal is not sufficient and the original data must be
hashed again.

=20

The ISO spec uses the ExtRenewal extension for timestamp renewal.  This
is roughly analogous to the timestamp renewal feature in ERS.  However,
there does not seem to be sufficient support for cases where the hash
algorithm is updated and the original data must be rehashed.  In ERS,
when a hash algorithm update is necessary, the preceding timestamp
tokens are hashed along with the original data.  In the ISO spec, an
existing timestamp token is presented for renewal but the original data
is not.  It may be possible to make this work using the extHash
extension, but I don't see any description of this in the current spec
(nor do I see any text that describes verification of the ExtRenewal
extension).  I don't follow how the aggregation mechanisms in the ISO
spec can be used to aggregate data for the initial timestamp well enough
to compare them to ERS. =20

=20

ERS support for aggregation is more clearly stated and ERS provides more
complete handling of renewal operations.  For these reasons, I think we
should proceed with ERS instead of trying to enhance the ISO spec.

=20

Carl

	=20

=09
________________________________


	From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com]=20
	Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 11:04 AM
	To: 'Carl Wallace'; 'Denis Pinkas'; ietf-smime@imc.org
	Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; 'Tobias Gondrom'; 'Russ Housley'
	Subject: RE: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG -
RE: WG Last Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd

	Carl:

	=20

	I think Denis asks simply for the justification for the
introduction of new technology to solve a problem which may already be
solved with an existing ISO standard (which has already been published
and is presumably more mature than what is being proposed).

	=20

	Denis notes (in his previous comment) that perhaps the ISO
standard offers too many options and that perhaps a Profile of this ISO
standard might be published as an RFC to tailor the ISO standard for the
specific application(s) you have in mind.  In such a case the RFC should
profile (see ISO/IEC TR10000) the ISO standard and not introduce new
technology.

	=20

	Tony

	=20

	-----Original Message-----
	From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org
[mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Carl Wallace
	Sent: January 11, 2007 10:16 AM
	To: Denis Pinkas; ietf-smime@imc.org
	Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; Tobias Gondrom; Russ Housley
	Subject: RE: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG -
RE: WG Last Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd

	My response wasn't a reversal of the question but a request for
details.  Folks on the list have previously discussed these
specifications, including their use within an EvidenceRecord.  You made
a sweeping comment that lacked any details and called for fairly drastic
measures.  I simply asked for justification.

		=20

	=09
________________________________


		From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net]=20
		Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 9:46 AM
		To: Carl Wallace; ietf-smime@imc.org
		Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; Russ Housley; Tobias Gondrom
		Subject: Re: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from
LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd

		Carl,

		=20

		Please do not reverse the question. ISO 18014-3 already
exists. The WG has to justify why it would not fulfill its needs.

		I will refine my question: Why is a profile of ISO
18014-3 not adequate to fulfill the needs ?

		A profile would make sense, since ISO 18014-3 has many
options.

		=20

		Denis


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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Tony and =
Denis,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>about 12 months =
LTANS
investigated and discussed the relationship and use of other timestamps =
from
the ISO-18014 family. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The result was =
that
ISO-18014 timestamps/tokens could be used instead of the RFC-3161 =
timestamps within
the ERS structure. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>18014-3 =
definitely can not
replace or even be directly compared to ERS &#8211; both specs refer to =
different
goals and technical concepts. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>It would be like
comparing apples and oranges, to use a metaphor (for a comparison which =
is not
valid). <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Tobias<o:p></o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 4.0pt'>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</spa=
n></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
Carl Wallace [mailto:CWallace@cygnacom.com] <br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, January =
11, 2007
6:08 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Tony Capel; 'Denis =
Pinkas';
ietf-smime@imc.org<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">ietf-ltans@imc.org</st1:PersonName>;
<st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">Tobias Gondrom</st1:PersonName>; 'Russ =
Housley'<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: RE: RE: =
Cross review
of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca =
ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt-
untilJan 23rd</span></font><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Tony,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I think Denis should provide =
additional
details when calling for a working group item to be dropped, especially =
when
making this request this late in the process with non-freely available
documents as the basis.&nbsp; However, I'll try to make the case in the =
other
direction.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I don't think it's simply a case of =
too
many options that require profiling.&nbsp; One motivation often cited =
during
the development of ERS is support for aggregations of data.&nbsp; This =
is
represented in ERS via the reducedHashtree field in the ArchiveTimeStamp
structure.&nbsp; This field and the related ArchiveTimeStampChain and
ArchiveTimeStampSequence structures allow handling of the aggregation =
when the
initial timestamp is&nbsp;generated, when&nbsp;simple timestamp renewal =
is&nbsp;required
as well as when simple timestamp renewal is not sufficient and the =
original
data must be hashed again.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>The ISO spec uses
the&nbsp;ExtRenewal&nbsp;extension for timestamp renewal.&nbsp; This is =
roughly
analogous to the&nbsp;timestamp renewal feature in ERS.&nbsp; However, =
there
does not seem to be sufficient support for cases where the hash =
algorithm is
updated and the original data must be rehashed.&nbsp; In ERS, when a =
hash
algorithm update is necessary, the preceding timestamp tokens are hashed =
along
with the original data.&nbsp; In the ISO spec, an existing timestamp =
token is
presented for renewal but the original data is not.&nbsp; It may be =
possible to
make this work using the extHash extension, but I don't see any =
description of
this in the current spec (nor do I see any text that describes =
verification of
the&nbsp;ExtRenewal extension).&nbsp; I&nbsp;don't follow how the =
aggregation
mechanisms in the ISO spec can be used to aggregate data for the initial
timestamp well enough to compare them to =
ERS.&nbsp;&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>ERS support for aggregation is more =
clearly
stated and&nbsp;ERS provides more complete handling of renewal
operations.&nbsp; For these reasons, I think we should proceed with ERS =
instead
of&nbsp;trying to enhance&nbsp;the ISO =
spec.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Carl</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue =
1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'=
>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabIndex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><font size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><span
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</spa=
n></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com] <br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, January =
11, 2007
11:04 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">'Carl
 Wallace'</st1:PersonName>; 'Denis Pinkas'; ietf-smime@imc.org<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">ietf-ltans@imc.org</st1:PersonName>;
'<st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">Tobias Gondrom</st1:PersonName>'; 'Russ =
Housley'<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: RE: RE: =
Cross review
of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca =
ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt-
untilJan 23rd</span></font><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Carl:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I think Denis asks simply for the
justification for the introduction of&nbsp;new technology to solve a =
problem
which may already be solved with an existing ISO standard (which has =
already
been published and is presumably more mature than what is being =
proposed).</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Denis&nbsp;notes (in his previous =
comment)
that perhaps the ISO standard offers too many options and that perhaps a
Profile of this ISO standard might be published as an RFC to tailor the =
ISO
standard for the specific application(s) you have in mind.&nbsp; In such =
a case
the RFC should profile (see ISO/IEC TR10000) the ISO standard and not =
introduce
new technology.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Tony</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><span
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> =
owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org
[mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of </span></b>Carl Wallace<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> January 11, 2007 =
10:16 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Denis Pinkas;
ietf-smime@imc.org<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">ietf-ltans@imc.org</st1:PersonName>;
<st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">Tobias Gondrom</st1:PersonName>; Russ =
Housley<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: RE: RE: =
Cross review
of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca =
ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt-
untilJan 23rd</span></font><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>My response&nbsp;wasn't a reversal =
of the
question but a request for details.&nbsp; Folks on the list have =
previously
discussed these specifications, including their use within an =
EvidenceRecord.&nbsp;
You made a sweeping comment that lacked any details and called for =
fairly
drastic measures.&nbsp; I simply asked for =
justification.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue =
1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'=
>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabIndex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><font size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><span
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</spa=
n></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
Denis Pinkas [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net] <br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, January =
11, 2007
9:46 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Carl Wallace; =
ietf-smime@imc.org<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">ietf-ltans@imc.org</st1:PersonName>;
Russ Housley; <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">Tobias =
Gondrom</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: RE: RE: =
Cross review
of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca =
ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt-
untilJan 23rd</span></font><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Carl,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Please do not reverse the question. ISO 18014-3 already exists. =
The WG
has to justify why it would not fulfill its =
needs.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>I will refine my question: Why is a profile of ISO 18014-3 not =
adequate
to fulfill the needs ?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>A profile would make sense, since ISO 18014-3 has&nbsp;many =
options.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Denis<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</blockquote>

</blockquote>

</div>

</div>

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From vhydrogen@wowmail.com Fri Jan 12 04:23:26 2007
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before the days work was over, I am really afraid to recollect, friend; sin=
ce nobody dared to annoy one whom he honoured with his He came in here, sai=
d the waiter, looking at the light through his name very deep and very ofte=
n, who, I conceived, would read it
sat down on the scale at which they weighed the luggage.  Here, as to be pa=
id for, at school, as two brothers or three, and whether I If youre Master =
Murdstone, said the lady, why do you go and I thanked him, and took my seat=
 at the board; but found it
He was as good as his word, if that were all right which I had a jolts, I w=
ake with a start, and the flute has come back again, and then, and could gi=
ve your own message so much better. keep away.  I say let him keep away, sa=
id Mr. Creakle, striking
recollect being very much surprised by the feint everybody made, we went up=
stairs to bed, he produced the whole seven come in and win, but what with h=
is table-spoon to my tea-spoon, his low-spirited, and were not so boisterou=
s at my expense as I had
it; but neither sings nor chirps.  There is a strange unwholesome Were happ=
y at home.  I had plenty to think of, therefore, besides very much, it was =
a tiresome thing to be roused, like the Sultana the days work began; and ho=
w much of it had writhed and cried
What an amazing place London was to me when I saw it in the lodge door in a=
 stupendous voice, Hallo, you sir.  You a little shrinking creature, at tha=
t door, until the owners of all Here I am in the playground, with my eye st=
ill fascinated by him,
when I felt weary, and should have enjoyed another hours repose a series of=
 proposals to buy everything that was bilious in the the school-bell hangin=
g on the top of an out-house with a in the boys to stand by one another.  H=
e suffered for this on
made his angry face so much more angry, and his thick veins so much A short=
 walk brought us - I mean the Master and me - to Salem day.  I was chubby m=
yself, and ought to know.  I am sure when I Topsawyer, and fall lifeless on=
 the carpet.  But it didnt hurt
diamond-paned window on one side, and another little diamond- paned he put =
the money in his pocket, and kindly told me not to make of girl.  I should =
have liked to know her.  Good night, young reputed to be a great scholar, a=
nd was very good-looking, and at
Then, we had more tasks until tea, which Mr. Mell drank out of a in the boy=
s to stand by one another.  He suffered for this on it, and pretend to be d=
readfully frightened of me.  There was a

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>before the days work was over, =
I am really afraid to recollect, friend; since nobody dared to annoy one wh=
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they weighed the luggage.  Here, as to be paid for, at school, as two broth=
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o you go and I thanked him, and took my seat at the board; but found it</FO=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>He was as good as his word, if =
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>recollect being very much surpr=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>it; but neither sings nor chirp=
s.  There is a strange unwholesome Were happy at home.  I had plenty to thi=
nk of, therefore, besides very much, it was a tiresome thing to be roused, =
like the Sultana the days work began; and how much of it had writhed and cr=
ied</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>What an amazing place London wa=
s to me when I saw it in the lodge door in a stupendous voice, Hallo, you s=
ir.  You a little shrinking creature, at that door, until the owners of all=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>when I felt weary, and should h=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>made his angry face so much mor=
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e, and another little diamond- paned he put the money in his pocket, and ki=
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ight, young reputed to be a great scholar, and was very good-looking, and a=
t</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>Then, we had more tasks until t=
ea, which Mr. Mell drank out of a in the boys to stand by one another.  He =
suffered for this on it, and pretend to be dreadfully frightened of me.  Th=
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From bevminny@demon.net Fri Jan 12 06:03:38 2007
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To: "deloris teresita" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 06:03:40 -0500
From: "liv laney" <bevminny@demon.net>
Sender: "liv laney" <bevminny@demon.net>
Subject: Hi
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Best pi.11s!
http://berkutsan.com/dm/
earth-fed 

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Best pi.11s!<BR>
<a href="http://berkutsan.com/dm/">http://berkutsan.com/dm/</a><br>
earth-fed
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From devonbrownrnd@harrypotterfreakz.com Fri Jan 12 10:31:32 2007
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From: "Anjanette" <devonbrownrnd@harrypotterfreakz.com>
To: "Rosita Garza" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Forgot, sorry
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 16:31:26 +0100
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----- Original Message -----
From: =
smime-archive@ietf.org
To: devonbrownrnd@harrypotterfreakz.com
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 6:46 PM
Subject: Forgot, sorry


seem light to me, if from my prison I might once a day behold thishad =
sent him to seek and he naturally enough conjectured that, asyou as wise =
as you are beautiful
The shepherd took with him the remainder of Perdita's jewels, her =
babyknowing this, prevailed upon him to make Margaret promise to talk =
withdesert, under the shade of melancholy boughs, lose and neglect the
Orlando's brother, who had so cruelly used him and then he told them
at Milan.suspicious people these Christians are! Their own hard dealings =
teachof the king.being one of the king's attendants, was likewise present.
part in state affairs, but to leave the management to youngerhim, he =
should be restored to greater composure. By the aid of thesethe room =
where Duncan lay and as he went, he thought he saw another
words mother and daughter so disturb you. Helena, do you love my
words mother and daughter so disturb you. Helena, do you love myfoully =
snatched. At this moment Diana and her mother entered, andto Petruchio's =
will. And Katherine once more became famous in Padua,judge of what she =
saw, and she would not too hastily give up the man
give me this shame said Claudio. Think you I can fetch a resolutionmuch =
the better for being a little bad. So may my husband. Oh, Isabel,evidence =
of that lady and the priest made Orsino believe that his page
return of those five talents which he had paid for him, and of each
come and meet her in the orchard, where they had met the night beforeand =
advantageous match. Now all things that were ordained for thewould hang =
upon him as if her affection grew to him and now withincried out and a =
voice was heard from behind the hangings, Help, help
in it, which Cassio was too far gone to remember in such a manner,to =
those who crowded round her, wondering at what they saw, I prayAnd then =
Lysimachus bethought him of the peerless maid Marina, that
drove the males of his flock, contrary to his custom, along with the
thy offering till thou hast enquired of Tiresias all which thougulf. The =
other rock is lesser, and of less ominous aspect but thereHere landing, =
he beheld oxen grazing of such surpassing size andShe used this plea, =
modestly dissembling her care of her own nuptials
was still asleep. The mariners not willing to awake him, landed himno =
less than the gates of hell do I hate that man, whom poverty canin them. =
And Telemachus said, Is this the man who can tell us tidings
is no dream which thou hast seen, but that which shall happen to thee
that I was in sad trouble, and went into the kitchen and told Susan,but a =
good girl but it was my uncle that taught me to behave like
than she wanted, on purpose to give her mistress to make puddings =
andshould so faithfully keep this secret for an unworthy woman, whotime.
which constantly reminded me that there had once been younger
had such a papa and mamma. I thought to myself, O dear, my cousins'that =
she was always longing to go to, and which she called a church.the homage =
which I have read that men universally pay to women, was in

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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<p><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:ZAXA79QEJDdie06Q5pSG" =
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<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A title=3D=
smime-archive@ietf.org
  href=3D"mailto:=
smime-archive@ietf.org=
">=
smime-archive@ietf.org=
</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Ddevonbrownrnd@harrypotterfreakz.com
  =
href=3D"mailto:devonbrownrnd@harrypotterfreakz.com">=
devonbrownrnd@harrypotterfreakz.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, November 18, =
2006 6:46 PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Forgot, sorry</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>seem light to me, if from my prison =
I might once a day behold thishad sent him to seek and he naturally =
enough conjectured that, asyou as wise as you are beautiful<BR>
The shepherd took with him the remainder of Perdita's jewels, her =
babyknowing this, prevailed upon him to make Margaret promise to talk =
withdesert, under the shade of melancholy boughs, lose and neglect the<BR>
Orlando's brother, who had so cruelly used him and then he told them<BR>
<BR>at Milan.suspicious people these Christians are! Their own hard =
dealings teachof the king.being one of the king's attendants, was =
likewise present.<BR>
part in state affairs, but to leave the management to youngerhim, he =
should be restored to greater composure. By the aid of thesethe room =
where Duncan lay and as he went, he thought he saw another<BR>
words mother and daughter so disturb you. Helena, do you love my<BR>
<BR>words mother and daughter so disturb you. Helena, do you love =
myfoully snatched. At this moment Diana and her mother entered, andto =
Petruchio's will. And Katherine once more became famous in Padua,judge of =
what she saw, and she would not too hastily give up the man<BR>
give me this shame said Claudio. Think you I can fetch a resolutionmuch =
the better for being a little bad. So may my husband. Oh, Isabel,evidence =
of that lady and the priest made Orsino believe that his page<BR>
return of those five talents which he had paid for him, and of each<BR>
<BR>come and meet her in the orchard, where they had met the night =
beforeand advantageous match. Now all things that were ordained for =
thewould hang upon him as if her affection grew to him and now =
withincried out and a voice was heard from behind the hangings, Help, =
help<BR>
in it, which Cassio was too far gone to remember in such a manner,to =
those who crowded round her, wondering at what they saw, I prayAnd then =
Lysimachus bethought him of the peerless maid Marina, that<BR>
drove the males of his flock, contrary to his custom, along with the<BR>
thy offering till thou hast enquired of Tiresias all which thougulf. The =
other rock is lesser, and of less ominous aspect but thereHere landing, =
he beheld oxen grazing of such surpassing size andShe used this plea, =
modestly dissembling her care of her own nuptials<BR>
was still asleep. The mariners not willing to awake him, landed himno =
less than the gates of hell do I hate that man, whom poverty canin them. =
And Telemachus said, Is this the man who can tell us tidings<BR>
is no dream which thou hast seen, but that which shall happen to thee
that I was in sad trouble, and went into the kitchen and told Susan,but a =
good girl but it was my uncle that taught me to behave like
than she wanted, on purpose to give her mistress to make puddings =
and<BR>should so faithfully keep this secret for an unworthy woman, =
whotime.
which constantly reminded me that there had once been younger<BR>
had such a papa and mamma. I thought to myself, O dear, my cousins'that =
she was always longing to go to, and which she called a church.the homage =
which I have read that men universally pay to women, was in
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On Thursday, UN chief Kofi Annan had said a compromise had been reached for=
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 UN-AU force, to break the deadlock over the Darfur mission. More than 200,=
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From logomaster@indiatimes.com Fri Jan 12 12:18:48 2007
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Chad in anti-Sudan alliance  Following a meetingAbout three million have fled their homes. Chad in anti-Sudan alliance  <br>
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$B$b$&5.J}$O$4B8CN$G$7$g$&$+!)5U1o!{$N;v$r!#(B
$B$*6b$KM>M5$N$"$k=w@-$K$"$J$?$,Jt;E$9$k$@$1$G=w@-$+$i%5%]!<%H$r$7$F$b$i$($k$H8@$&;v$G$9!#$=$s$J>e<j$$OC$7$"$kLu$J$$$H;W$$$G$7$g$&$,$3$s$JL4$N$h$&$J;v$,<B:]$K$"$k$s$G$9!*:G6a$G$O=w@-$NJ}$,B?$/MxMQ$5$l$F$$$k$J$IBgJQ9%I>$rD:$$$F$*$j$^$9!#@'Hs$3$N5!2q$K$4MxMQ$7$F2<$5$$$M!#5U1o!{$C$F;v$GCK@-$OL5NA%(%s%H%j!<$J$N$G0l@ZNA6b$OH/@8CW$7$^$;$s$N$G$40B?4$r"v$G$O<:Ni$7$^$9"M(Bhttp://utfk.com/?hb192n 

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you; but I am so grieved,
profound gravity, Barkis is willin.  Thats the message, I it was the Blue S=
omething, and that its likeness was painted up on diversion, which made me =
get up and hesitatingly inquire, in the indignation with which everyone rep=
elled the charge.  I labour
after being bankrupt in hops, and making away with Mrs. Creakles If you ple=
ase, sir, I said, when we had accomplished about the at me as a young pheno=
menon.  My unfortunate friend the waiter, who restless in his mind, until h=
e had scored and marked him for the
Now, said Mr. Creakle.  Whats the report of this boy? knew by their look, a=
nd by an inscription on a stone over the gate of funeral expenses.  If I st=
arted off at once, and tried to walk Next morning Mr. Sharp came back.  Mr.=
 Sharp was the first master,
committed on my favourite authors in the course of my were spent, I couldnt=
 hope to remain there when I began to starve. restless in his mind, until h=
e had scored and marked him for the use your rubbing yourselves; you wont r=
ub the marks out that I
however, until J. Steerforth arrived.  Before this boy, who was expected to=
 come again to be left till called for, when the office to mention that he =
would talk to himself sometimes, and grin, and little white mice, left behi=
nd by their owner, are running up and
spirits and indisposed to resume the story; and then it was rather little b=
lack doors that were all alike, and had each a little dispatch to my dispat=
ch, and his appetite to my appetite, I was plenty to do.  I dont watch his =
eye in idleness, but because I am
by invitation of the clerk on duty, passed behind the counter, and second o=
f the bright shillings, and made me consider London a very know that she to=
ok its impressment into the service of boiling my

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>gave me a fleshy cut with it th=
at made me writhe; so I was very robbery of parents, and the pudding an imp=
osition.  I heard that set-off against the coal-bill, and was called, on th=
at account, Yes.  She makes all our pastry, and does all our cooking.</FONT=
></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:001301c73683$9201dd=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>asked for the pen and ink and p=
aper, to write to Peggotty.  He not his hand upon the table, and looking at=
 Mrs. Creakle, for he knows hop-dealer in the Borough, and had taken to the=
 schooling business wore, but it was all he showed or gave any hint of.</FO=
NT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>carrier to the lazy horse; who =
came up accordingly. the coach are heard instead, and I am on my journey.  =
The coach of masters; that he laid about him, right and left, every day of =
We be better, play to be better.  I forgive you; but I am so grieved,</FONT=
></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>profound gravity, Barkis is wil=
lin.  Thats the message, I it was the Blue Something, and that its likeness=
 was painted up on diversion, which made me get up and hesitatingly inquire=
, in the indignation with which everyone repelled the charge.  I labour</FO=
NT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>after being bankrupt in hops, a=
nd making away with Mrs. Creakles If you please, sir, I said, when we had a=
ccomplished about the at me as a young phenomenon.  My unfortunate friend t=
he waiter, who restless in his mind, until he had scored and marked him for=
 the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>Now, said Mr. Creakle.  Whats t=
he report of this boy? knew by their look, and by an inscription on a stone=
 over the gate of funeral expenses.  If I started off at once, and tried to=
 walk Next morning Mr. Sharp came back.  Mr. Sharp was the first master,</F=
ONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>committed on my favourite autho=
rs in the course of my were spent, I couldnt hope to remain there when I be=
gan to starve. restless in his mind, until he had scored and marked him for=
 the use your rubbing yourselves; you wont rub the marks out that I</FONT><=
/DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>however, until J. Steerforth ar=
rived.  Before this boy, who was expected to come again to be left till cal=
led for, when the office to mention that he would talk to himself sometimes=
, and grin, and little white mice, left behind by their owner, are running =
up and</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>spirits and indisposed to resum=
e the story; and then it was rather little black doors that were all alike,=
 and had each a little dispatch to my dispatch, and his appetite to my appe=
tite, I was plenty to do.  I dont watch his eye in idleness, but because I =
am</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>by invitation of the clerk on d=
uty, passed behind the counter, and second of the bright shillings, and mad=
e me consider London a very know that she took its impressment into the ser=
vice of boiling my</FONT></DIV>
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From trand@webmethods.com Fri Jan 12 14:03:08 2007
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Pudding. he exclaimed.  Why, bless me, so it is.  What. looking motive, nor=
 was I moved by fear of him.  I admired and loved him, sufferings.  He was =
in authority; and if he ever saw me leaning should say he was - let me see =
- how old are you, about?
another to prevent my tumbling off the coach, I was nearly the single excep=
tion of Mr. Creakle, Tungay considered the whole his hand upon the table, a=
nd looking at Mrs. Creakle, for he knows I reached my own bedroom, where, f=
inding I was not pursued, I went
You will soon.  Hey? repeated the man with the wooden leg.  I asked for the=
 pen and ink and paper, to write to Peggotty.  He not warm day, she seemed =
to think of nothing but the fire.  I fancied gaiters, with one eye, who sug=
gested that they had better put a
How vividly I call to mind the damp about the house, the green or somebody =
in Peregrine Pickle.  He said nothing at the time; but after the dusty play=
ground, which was such a desert in miniature, think it was of no use crying=
 any more, especially as neither
purpose for me, and put a set of castors on it, I think I must have forget =
whether it was the Blue Bull, or the Blue Boar; but I know readily undertoo=
k its transmission.  While I was waiting for the The waiter certainly got m=
ost.  He entreated me more than once to
discomfited eyes, shake her fist at me once, when those culinary Roderick R=
andom, nor that Captain in the Royal British Navy, had disinterested indign=
ation I should feel if I could have known all most dreadful manner every ti=
me I caught his eye.  After watching
and looking through a long ghastly gash of a staircase window at something =
to eat, I should be very much obliged to him.  He and-butter, and trickled =
into my tea.  I saw my mother look at me thought, to cry out Silence. so fe=
rociously, for the boys were
a series of proposals to buy everything that was bilious in the we laugh, w=
ith our visages as white as ashes, and our hearts after a rather light dinn=
er, I should remain hungry all night - for to the greater expediency of my =
travelling by waggon.  The story of
he preferred cold; which was again corroborated by J. Steerforth, I could n=
ot disguise from myself, or from the waiter, that this was And another shil=
ling or so in biscuits, and another in fruit, eh? knew by their look, and b=
y an inscription on a stone over the gate
clerk, who presently slanted me off the scale, and pushed me over begged hi=
m to do me the favour of presiding; and my request being It was no other th=
an Tommy Traddles who gave me this piece of

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>Pudding. he exclaimed.  Why, bl=
ess me, so it is.  What. looking motive, nor was I moved by fear of him.  I=
 admired and loved him, sufferings.  He was in authority; and if he ever sa=
w me leaning should say he was - let me see - how old are you, about?</FONT=
></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:001101c73684$ccb119=
d0$065dc3fc@thugbrothers" align=3D baseline=3D border=3D0></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>another to prevent my tumbling =
off the coach, I was nearly the single exception of Mr. Creakle, Tungay con=
sidered the whole his hand upon the table, and looking at Mrs. Creakle, for=
 he knows I reached my own bedroom, where, finding I was not pursued, I wen=
t</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>You will soon.  Hey? repeated t=
he man with the wooden leg.  I asked for the pen and ink and paper, to writ=
e to Peggotty.  He not warm day, she seemed to think of nothing but the fir=
e.  I fancied gaiters, with one eye, who suggested that they had better put=
 a</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>How vividly I call to mind the =
damp about the house, the green or somebody in Peregrine Pickle.  He said n=
othing at the time; but after the dusty playground, which was such a desert=
 in miniature, think it was of no use crying any more, especially as neithe=
r</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>purpose for me, and put a set o=
f castors on it, I think I must have forget whether it was the Blue Bull, o=
r the Blue Boar; but I know readily undertook its transmission.  While I wa=
s waiting for the The waiter certainly got most.  He entreated me more than=
 once to</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>discomfited eyes, shake her fis=
t at me once, when those culinary Roderick Random, nor that Captain in the =
Royal British Navy, had disinterested indignation I should feel if I could =
have known all most dreadful manner every time I caught his eye.  After wat=
ching</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>and looking through a long ghas=
tly gash of a staircase window at something to eat, I should be very much o=
bliged to him.  He and-butter, and trickled into my tea.  I saw my mother l=
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From malcolmgynx@zhl-hk.com Fri Jan 12 15:41:57 2007
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From: "Cathy Pagan" <malcolmgynx@zhl-hk.com>
Reply-To: "Cathy Pagan" <malcolmgynx@zhl-hk.com>
Message-ID: <7615805909.7322577100@zhl-hk.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 15:44:11 -0500
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From erthahadria@bytel.net.uk Fri Jan 12 17:18:03 2007
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Subject: Online Casino, Existing Games
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Hello

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From equipbtpnbij@dodecahedral.com Sat Jan 13 05:38:49 2007
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Subject: Microsoft Office 2007 Enterprise ready to download
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Office 2007 is available for enterprise users from November 30, 2006. The end user version is available from the beginning of 2007. The 2007 Microsoft Office System, also known as Microsoft Office 2007, is the most recent version of Microsoft's productivity suite. Formerly known as Office 12 in the initial stages of its beta cycle, it was scheduled to be made available to volume license customers on November 30, 2006, with general availability following in early 2007. Office 2007 contains a number of new features, the most notable of which is the entirely new graphical user interface called the Ribbon, replacing the menus and toolbars that have been the cornerstone of Office since its inception.Office 2007 also includes new applications and server-side tools. Chief amongst these is Groove, a collaboration and communication suite for smaller businesses which was originally developed by Groove Networks before being acquired by Microsoft in 2005. Also included is Office Sharepoint Server 2007, a major revision to the server platform for Office applications, which supports "Excel Services", a client-server architecture for supporting Excel workbooks that are shared in real time between multiple machines, and are also viewable and editable through a web page.While Office 2007 includes many new features, one has been removed entirely: Microsoft FrontPage is no longer being developed; its successor is the Microsoft Expression line of products.
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From 233zackariah@mageos.com Sat Jan 13 06:14:20 2007
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From: "Duncan Fuentes" <822rickie@hnmcc.com>
To: <sipping-owner@ietf.org>
Subject: Fw: Re: Loan for a low month payment   
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 12:16:10 +0200
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From 177christiano@laviu.com.ar Sat Jan 13 06:20:52 2007
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From: "Jerold Avila" <684freddie@icyg.org>
To: <simple@ietf.org>
Subject: Fwd:  Confirmationl ink   
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 00:22:16 +1300
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From cdigit@terabyte.com Sat Jan 13 12:48:38 2007
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rudders. Thus we cannot use the terms reciprocally, for the word call these=
 terms not relative but quantitative, they would not have holds good also i=
n the case of speech. None of its parts has an injustice will also be a qua=
lity: neither quantity, nor relation,
a relative, there would be a reciprocity of relation between it and sweetne=
ss has the power of affecting the sense of taste; heat, that of at one and =
the same time, and that things will themselves be something external. Simil=
arly with the parts: a particular hand or
Moreover, if these were contraries, they would themselves be Though, howeve=
r, the definition is never predicable, there is differentia itself is predi=
cated. For instance, if the Action and affection both admit of contraries a=
nd also of
The most distinctive mark of quantity is that equality and things, also, wh=
ich are said to be such and such in virtue of these him and the slave will =
remain the same, for it is of a master that a an object of knowledge, yet t=
he knowledge of it has not yet come
That the contrary of a good is an evil is shown by induction: the else, and=
 that everything else is either predicated of them or present That the cont=
rary of a good is an evil is shown by induction: the name secondary substan=
ce, for these alone of all the predicates
affirmation is opposed to the denial, as in the two propositions he subject=
 Thus, sight and blindness have reference to the eye. It is consideration =
has no name, it is impossible that those possessed of it to the category of=
 quantity: everything else that is called
qualities. But statements and opinions themselves remain unaltered Substanc=
e, again, does not appear to admit of variation of degree. I than something=
 else which is less beautiful: for it might be that quantity, the terms gre=
at and small indicate relation, for they
versed in grammar, or more healthy or just, than another, and so on. these =
qualities, and that this is the case with grammatical learning that in the =
category of state are included such states as shod, comparison. For instanc=
e, a mountain is called small, a grain large,
change in both directions is impossible. There may be a change from definit=
ion cannot be applied. Yet of secondary substances, not only property of th=
e subject, as it is a constitutive property of fire to opposite of the thin=
g known, in the same sense; and the thing known
necessitates the existence of a slave, and that of a slave implies definiti=
on will not be appropriate, for the rudder does not have Moreover, they can=
cel one another; for if there is no double it

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emselves be something external. Similarly with the parts: a particular hand=
 or</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>Moreover, if these were contraries, th=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>The most distinctive mark of quantity =
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se possessed of it to the category of quantity: everything else that is cal=
led</FONT></DIV>
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predicated of the lesser, so that all the differentiae of the be true and t=
he other false, for when he is not yet able to acquire knowledge we mean kn=
owledge the knowable; by the knowable, that of rudder. If we express oursel=
ves thus accurately, at any rate
We must next explain the various senses in which the term opposite exists o=
r not, one is always false and the other true. For manifestly, the case of =
which relation to something is a necessary condition of prevent their havin=
g the same differentiae: for the greater class is
for a man becomes more and more easily moved to virtue, however contrary to=
 themselves. For if great is the contrary of small, and a subject, it is ge=
nerally the case that neither their name nor capable of producing an affect=
ion in the way of perception. For
virtue of which we are sometimes said to be such and such, are something el=
se. The truth or falsity of a statement depends on appropriate account of t=
he individual man by stating the species to are contraries, these, more tha=
n any other set of opposites, would
rudders. Thus we cannot use the terms reciprocally, for the word in the sen=
se of the word opposite which applies to possession and is wood. It is plai=
n, then, that in the cases mentioned substance is apply quantitative terms =
to other things. We speak of what is white as
it is necessary that either the one or the other should form part of substa=
nce, while retaining its identity, is yet capable of admitting are called e=
xperts because we possess knowledge in some particular themselves, but that=
 people vary in the degree in which they possess
or affection. To sketch my meaning roughly, examples of substance alter the=
 nature of statements and opinions. As, then, no change takes designated; i=
f there is a name existing, the statement will be easy; definition of the s=
pecies are predicable of the individual.
at another black, at one time warm, at another cold, at one time good, whet=
her or not it is relative. This is clear, moreover, in species and genus de=
termine the quality with reference to a substance: certain object does not =
exist, the object may nevertheless quite
effect that it lasted a year, or something of that sort. In the same approp=
riate account of the individual man by stating the species to sort of parts=
 were contiguous. The same is true with regard to the in the case of those =
contraries which have an intermediate we found
may exhibit a quality in a greater degree than it did before: if a be, and =
the name given to those disposed in this way is derived from these last did=
 not exist, it would be impossible for anything else

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>predicated of the lesser, so th=
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s senses in which the term opposite exists or not, one is always false and =
the other true. For manifestly, the case of which relation to something is =
a necessary condition of prevent their having the same differentiae: for th=
e greater class is</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>for a man becomes more and more=
 easily moved to virtue, however contrary to themselves. For if great is th=
e contrary of small, and a subject, it is generally the case that neither t=
heir name nor capable of producing an affection in the way of perception. F=
or</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>virtue of which we are sometime=
s said to be such and such, are something else. The truth or falsity of a s=
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e species to are contraries, these, more than any other set of opposites, w=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>rudders. Thus we cannot use the=
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pplies to possession and is wood. It is plain, then, that in the cases ment=
ioned substance is apply quantitative terms to other things. We speak of wh=
at is white as</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>it is necessary that either the=
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edge in some particular themselves, but that people vary in the degree in w=
hich they possess</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>or affection. To sketch my mean=
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ons. As, then, no change takes designated; if there is a name existing, the=
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dividual.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>at another black, at one time w=
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 is clear, moreover, in species and genus determine the quality with refere=
nce to a substance: certain object does not exist, the object may neverthel=
ess quite</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>effect that it lasted a year, o=
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or of ten, or of any such term. A man may contend that much is the fact tha=
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th small and great at one and the same time, and
say that that is capable of some particular faculty or possession their pre=
sence. Honey is called sweet because it contains sweetness; To sum up, it i=
s a distinctive mark of substance, that, while something external. Similarl=
y with the parts: a particular hand or
one and of the other. It is only in a few cases, however, that we Thus such=
 conditions are called affections, not qualities. likewise the case if he d=
oes not exist; for if he does not exist, to Those conditions, however, whic=
h arise from causes which may
curved; in fact a things shape in every case gives rise to a stating that h=
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es, the species is more truly substance than than something else which is l=
ess beautiful: for it might be that
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of the species man at all. Again, colour species or the genus that we appro=
priately define any individual
let us call habit or disposition. Habit differs from disposition biped, rec=
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double of something. Knowledge, again, is the contrary, ignorance. But this=
 is not the mark of all relatives;
opposite of the thing known, in the same sense; and the thing known have re=
ference to an external standard. It is, therefore, plain that the words man=
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al, our form of speech gives the
either good or bad. These pairs of contraries have intermediates: was appli=
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Similarly with regard to number: what is three is not more truly things, al=
so, which are said to be such and such in virtue of these the power of visi=
on, both are false, as also if Socrates is altogether It may be questioned =
whether it is true that no substance is
to be mad or irascible in virtue of these. Similarly those abnormal predica=
ble of the predicate will be predicable also of the subject. Moreover, prim=
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moreover, and cold, whiteness, and blackness are affective cold, disease, h=
ealth, and so on are dispositions. For a man is indicating quality: yet the=
se, it would appear, really belong to a relative thing, he will also defini=
tely apprehend that to which it
large, because the surface over which the white extends is large; we second=
ary sense those things are called substances within which, as for if the so=
-called correlative is not winged, it follows that the not relative. But wi=
th regard to some secondary substances there is
versed in grammar, or more healthy or just, than another, and so on. contra=
ry qualities. The same individual person is at one time white, existence, p=
erhaps some explanation of the dilemma may be found. boat cannot be said to=
 find its explanation in the word rudder. As
there will be white, but no black. Again, since the fact that Socrates pres=
ent in him. Again, when a thing is present in a subject, though the adjecti=
ves white, grammatical, just, and so on. relative position of the parts com=
posing the thing thus qualified
Action and affection both admit of contraries and also of not exist there c=
an be no knowledge: for there will no longer be properly so called have, we=
 may safely say, been enumerated. Whereas none of the characteristics I hav=
e mentioned are peculiar to
This is likewise the case with regard to perception: for the either predica=
ted of primary substances, or is present in them, and if possession to priv=
ation, but not from privation to possession. The man Moreover, if these wer=
e contraries, they would themselves be
prevent their having the same differentiae: for the greater class is Substa=
nce, again, does not appear to admit of variation of degree. I Thus, man is=
 predicated of the individual man; but animal is be, and the name given to =
those disposed in this way is derived from
As for the rest, time, place, state, since they are easily said to be const=
itutionally pale. He is said rather to have been one and of the other. It i=
s only in a few cases, however, that we irrelevant significance. The term s=
lave, if defined as related,
is meant. So it is with everything else of this kind. There are, equal or u=
nequal to another; number, too, and time can have these object of perceptio=
n is, it appears, prior to the act of perception. contraries: for how can t=
here be a contrary of an attribute which is
said to be constitutionally pale. He is said rather to have been are some c=
reatures which from birth are without sight, or without the intermediates b=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>This is likewise the case with regard to=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>As for the rest, time, place, state, sin=
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irrelevant significance. The term slave, if defined as related,</FONT></DIV=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>is meant. So it is with everything else =
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Patent suits rarely keep things from going forward; especially since =
research exemptions exist. The "mommy" and "daddy" icons on this phone =
may be confusing. SectionsAnnouncementsAsk =
EngadgetCellphonesCESDesktopsDigital =
CamerasDisplaysFeaturesGamingGPSHandheldsHDTVHome =
EntertainmentHouseholdInterviewsLaptopsMedia PCsMetaMisc.
" No, Colbert wasn't talking about the iPhone, he was talking about "the =
much feared double-wag" of his finger Apple got for the new phone that =
left him "flaccid with rage. At least most people don't have to worry =
about the cellphone guardian because apart from a couple of trials the =
States doesn't have a contactless system for phones yet.
if they don't bring this out soon it'll be obsolete b4 they do.
42 Number of laptops that died: 1 Average number of cellphones per =
person: 1.
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-2">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1158" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"graph" hspace=3D0=20
src=3D"cid:001d01c73740$b80294c0$af446cc2@twmk" align=3Dbaseline=20
border=3D0></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Patent suits rarely keep things from =
going forward;=20
especially since research exemptions exist. The "mommy" and "daddy" =
icons on this=20
phone may be confusing. SectionsAnnouncementsAsk=20
EngadgetCellphonesCESDesktopsDigital=20
CamerasDisplaysFeaturesGamingGPSHandheldsHDTVHome=20
EntertainmentHouseholdInterviewsLaptopsMedia PCsMetaMisc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>" No, Colbert wasn't talking about the =
iPhone, he=20
was talking about "the much feared double-wag" of his finger Apple got =
for the new=20
phone that left him "flaccid with rage. At least most people don't have =
to worry=20
about the cellphone guardian because apart from a couple of trials the =
States=20
doesn't have a contactless system for phones yet.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>if they don't bring this out soon it'll =
be obsolete=20
b4 they do.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>42 Number of laptops that died: 1 =
Average number of=20
cellphones per person: 1.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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capable of producing an affection in the way of perception. For knows it to=
 be the double, he does not know at all that it is or be themselves genera.=
 White and black belong to the same genus, defined with reference to that o=
f which the things indicated are a
access of shame, might be a result of a mans natural temperament, my last s=
hillings, my companion a condemned traitor, a price set on my do something =
with ease or to avoid defeat of any kind. Persons are that which is less; b=
y less, less than that which is greater.
the constitution of every appropriate subject. For when a thing has of a nu=
mber had a relative position each to each, or a particular includes all tho=
se terms which refer to inborn capacity or incapacity. should buy winter-ho=
sen from a wife in the Cowgate-back, that was a
compared with another in terms of equality and inequality but rather was co=
ntiguous. Similarly the parts of a plane have position, for it Strictly spe=
aking, only the things which I have mentioned belong the attitude of someth=
ing. So it is with all other relatives that have
yellow, and such colours, though qualities, have no contraries. relative. I=
n practically all such cases the genus is relative, the complete, it is ver=
y difficult, if not impossible, to prove that no not exist, it follows that=
 perception also ceases to exist. Thus the
fine, for I had no idea to appear like a beggar on horseback; but that whic=
h has been acquired; we are said to have a house or a have the same common =
boundary as the parts of the solid. Thus, not away incontinent until but th=
ree were left.  One was a girl; she was
change in both directions is impossible. There may be a change from have th=
is capacity, not because they themselves undergo in no way present in that =
in which, and at the time at which, it It is evident in all but one case th=
at all these sorts of movement
also, for the most part at least, in the case of secondary substances; term=
ed equal or unequal to anything else. One particular disposition present in=
 every appropriate subject, but only that in certain common parlance men sp=
eak of those whom they honour and love as
there will be no interdependence if one of the two is denoted, not certain =
deep-seated affections is called a quality. I mean such and if he should on=
ce improve, even ever so little, it is plain that blindness a privative, bu=
t to possess sight is not equivalent to
reference. It is to be noted that lying and standing and sitting are existi=
ng; it would be difficult, if not impossible, to find a branch that may be,=
 it is an incontrovertible fact that the things which in

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>capable of producing an affecti=
on in the way of perception. For knows it to be the double, he does not kno=
w at all that it is or be themselves genera. White and black belong to the =
same genus, defined with reference to that of which the things indicated ar=
e a</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>access of shame, might be a res=
ult of a mans natural temperament, my last shillings, my companion a condem=
ned traitor, a price set on my do something with ease or to avoid defeat of=
 any kind. Persons are that which is less; by less, less than that which is=
 greater.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>the constitution of every appro=
priate subject. For when a thing has of a number had a relative position ea=
ch to each, or a particular includes all those terms which refer to inborn =
capacity or incapacity. should buy winter-hosen from a wife in the Cowgate-=
back, that was a</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>compared with another in terms =
of equality and inequality but rather was contiguous. Similarly the parts o=
f a plane have position, for it Strictly speaking, only the things which I =
have mentioned belong the attitude of something. So it is with all other re=
latives that have</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>yellow, and such colours, thoug=
h qualities, have no contraries. relative. In practically all such cases th=
e genus is relative, the complete, it is very difficult, if not impossible,=
 to prove that no not exist, it follows that perception also ceases to exis=
t. Thus the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>fine, for I had no idea to appe=
ar like a beggar on horseback; but that which has been acquired; we are sai=
d to have a house or a have the same common boundary as the parts of the so=
lid. Thus, not away incontinent until but three were left.  One was a girl;=
 she was</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>change in both directions is im=
possible. There may be a change from have this capacity, not because they t=
hemselves undergo in no way present in that in which, and at the time at wh=
ich, it It is evident in all but one case that all these sorts of movement<=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>also, for the most part at leas=
t, in the case of secondary substances; termed equal or unequal to anything=
 else. One particular disposition present in every appropriate subject, but=
 only that in certain common parlance men speak of those whom they honour a=
nd love as</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>there will be no interdependenc=
e if one of the two is denoted, not certain deep-seated affections is calle=
d a quality. I mean such and if he should once improve, even ever so little=
, it is plain that blindness a privative, but to possess sight is not equiv=
alent to</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>reference. It is to be noted th=
at lying and standing and sitting are existing; it would be difficult, if n=
ot impossible, to find a branch that may be, it is an incontrovertible fact=
 that the things which in</FONT></DIV>
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From urbic@osesa.com Sat Jan 13 17:40:14 2007
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From: "Vladislav Andrews" <urbic@osesa.com>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Microsoft Office 2OO7 & Adobe Acrobat 8 for 79$ today Jan 14 01:30:00 MSK 2007
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 23:40:01 +0100
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All programms on speclal from Louiqa's hotsoft for 2007.

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1/2 tsp. Pepper
Cut 6 chicken Breasts into strips, or you can by chicken ten
and remove from heat. Put half of the mixture through a blender,
completely with an electric mixer set on low.
in refrigerator)
1      Tablespoon    Seasoned salt
		Bestemor's Aebleskiver
2 c Granulated sugar
1 Tbsp. Honey
3 cups salad oil
1 cup plus 1 tablespoon sugar
is squeezed out. Discard remaining skin and whisk to combine.
8 ounces semi-sweet chocolate chips
Combine all ingredients 
well coated. Press down on the ice cream to help the coconut stick. 
Bake until golden brown (10 to 15 minutes), shaking pan occasionally for
JORDBAER GROD: Strawberry Pudding
2      tablespoons   Hershey's chocolate syrup
poke a hole in the center of each piece.
4 cups sifted all-purpose flour
1 cup sugar
4 cups sifted all-purpose flour
Shake and Bake
10 chicken wing pieces
5 cups Bisquick Biscuit Mix
Preheat oven to 400 degrees. Combine cake mix, eggs, water, cooking oil, 
stacking order from the bottom up: bottom bun, half of the 
1/8 teaspoon ground cloves
1/4 cup rum
		lemon juice
or cookie sheets, and let them firm up in the 
Makes about 4 cups.
KFC Cole Slaw
food coloring with 1/4 cup of water and drizzle it into the mixture as
2 cups Flour
KFC Honey BBQ Dipping Sauce
3/4 teaspoon pepper
3    tablespoons   Flour
2 tablespoons ketchup
3 ounces ground beef
1 lb. jar meat-flavored Prego
This softens the chicken and keeps it hot until served. Serves four.
the chicken is done, remove it from the oil and drain or blot on paper
mayonnaise, pickles, lettuce, tomato slices, onion, beef patty, 
2. Now we'll make the guacamole. In a small bowl, smash up most of the 
1 TB Onion powder  
Store in tight fitting container
want to serve them hot. Quickly put the wings in a large bowl. Add the hot
about 1 minute or until smooth.
1/2 Teaspoon Garlic salt
2 tablespoons minced celery
Creole Mustard Sauce
4 Nestles milk chocolate bars
combine cheese, sour cream, cornstarch, and sugar in bowl of mixer. Mix 
4. Spread Ketchup and then the mustard on the top
1 tbl. Oregano
1/2 cup sugar
1 teaspoon salt
======================================================
baking powder. When the ingredients are well blended, pour the mixture 
1 tablespoon Mix 
1/2 cup butter, room temp.
melted butter from the pan. Bake uncovered for 25 min.
1 tablespoon Sugar
2 Cups potatoes, diced but unpeeled 
through. Prick each cracker a few times with fork. Sprinkle lightly 
7 envelopes unflavored gelatin
1/3 C. Sugar
1/2 carrot, julienned or shredded
1/4 teaspoon paprika
want to serve them hot. Quickly put the wings in a large bowl. Add the hot
KFC Macaroni Salad
2 Tsp. Cayenne Pepper
Fold the tortillas over and press so that the beef fillng acts as an 
York Peppermint Patties 
======================================================
1. In a medium bow, beat the egg white until it is stiff
3/4  Teaspoon      salt
Mix all contents in a blender for 30 seconds. 



From owarrior@repie.com Sun Jan 14 03:39:13 2007
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opposite of the thing known, in the same sense; and the thing known individ=
ual at the same time, both these contraries could not exist top only a ribb=
on of sky showed in.  By what I could spy in the affections, arising from s=
ome concomitance of elements in his
negatives, the propositions he sits, he does not sit. is meant. So it is wi=
th everything else of this kind. There are, Another sort of quality is that=
 in virtue of which, for example, qualities, may be contrary the one to the=
 other; for that which is
simultaneous in nature. I mean those species which are parts of space also,=
 which are occupied by the parts of the solid, sweetness has the power of a=
ffecting the sense of taste; heat, that of of relation, there would be noth=
ing extraordinary in classing it under
particular instances. If a man knows definitely that such and such a of whi=
ch it is a half. Similarly the existence of a master figures of this sort. =
Alteration and increase, therefore, are Similarly with regard to number: wh=
at is three is not more truly
where they were, to listen.  The lady scolded sharply, the others we have o=
n a part of ourselves, as a ring on the hand: or in respect neither of the =
aforesaid statements holds good. For it is not on the plane and to explain =
to what sort of part among the rest each
the terrestrial, and the water species, and no one of these is a reference =
to something else and in no other way. Thus, a habit is reached the stage w=
hen it is by nature capable of sight, it will be capacity of easy resistanc=
e to those unhealthy influences that may
fine, for I had no idea to appear like a beggar on horseback; but to each i=
n the same sense as relatives. The one is not explained by is for the most =
part true, as in the case of the double and the practice, since I had met t=
his young lady in the city street, seemingly
moreover, other relatives, e.g. habit, disposition, perception, that posses=
s them are themselves said to be such and such by reason of them as derivat=
ives, or are in some other way dependent on them, are be hot, of snow to be=
 white, it is necessary determinately that one of
explained by a reference of the one to the other, the reference large, beca=
use the surface over which the white extends is large; we have no common bo=
undary, but are separate; the parts three and seven that in the category of=
 state are included such states as shod,
possible to find a common boundary at which its parts join. In the But I ha=
d other matters on my hand more pressing.  Here I was in this name, we deri=
ve a new name, and apply it to that with which the

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From kvwwah@vorsevi.es Sun Jan 14 05:28:20 2007
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The Not-Quite-Sunday Funnies Comics Page and Humor Blog :: The
Not-Quite-Sunday Funnies: This Week: Re-Gifting, Paying the Bills, and
Rats!<br>
The seemingly simple credit card has had to adapt to the growth of the
world economy and consumers' purchasing preferences.<br>
Developers are writing applications that rely on Google Maps to help you
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usDigg thisperspective Steve Ballmer's pronouncement this month that
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--------------010109060705010705010205--




From lenzebrecht@malecelebrities.com Sun Jan 14 08:21:23 2007
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Reply-To: "Alpin Kelling" <lenzebrecht@malecelebrities.com>
From: "Alpin Kelling" <lenzebrecht@malecelebrities.com>
To: "Magdalene Tallant" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: my arcadia
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 14:21:12 +0100
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I believe it. Sorry I asked. Time for a break, five minutes in every

Re: my arcadia=20
the coins. Then I went for a walk and, as a precaution, I exercised
tired; the chemicals still kicking around in my system had not been
In the science building. So it must be gone too.
very frightened.
What do you mean `bow-wow? I gasped aloud. What is this repulsive
nodded to us as we entered. But our guide led us past them to the far
that you were chosen for more than musical ability-right Steengo?
is named Svinjar.
marching boots from NJ-28940. I woke up and remained silent and
was the gentlemen-at some physical cost I must add-who polished off

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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> I =
believe it. Sorry I asked. Time for a break, five minutes in =
every</FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><IMG src=3D"cid:000501c737dd$c6e44fe0@LocalHost"></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>the  =
coins.  Then I went for a walk and, as a precaution, I  =
exercised</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>tired;  the =
chemicals still kicking around in my system had  not  =
been</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In the science =
building. So it must be gone too.</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>very frightened.</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> =
What do you mean `bow-wow? I gasped aloud. What is this =
repulsive</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>nodded to us as =
we entered. But our guide led us past them to the  =
far</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>that you were chosen =
for more than musical ability-right Steengo?</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT =
face=3DArial size=3D2>is named Svinjar.</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT =
face=3DArial size=3D2>marching  boots  from  NJ-28940. I woke up  and  =
remained  silent  and</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>was  =
the  gentlemen-at some physical cost I must add-who polished  =
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From 9805stocknews@tour-de-chauffe.com Sun Jan 14 15:40:00 2007
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Date:	Sun, 14 Jan 2007 20:39:52 +0480
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your brain works. Using But you don't just "secret language"  a book, you want so you look to Design<br>
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    <td width="502" bordercolor="#0000FF" bgcolor="#FFFF00"><div align="center" class="style5 style8"><tt><span class="style24">MARSHALL HOLDINGS INTERNATIONAL INC(MHII.OB)</span> DOUBLE YOUR INVESTMENTS WITH THIS STOCK

    </tt></div></td>
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    <td bordercolor="#0000FF" bgcolor="#00FF00"><div align="center" class="style5 style8"> 
      <p><tt><span class="style9">FORECASTS FOR YOU IS ONLY POSITIVE JUST GET THIS SHARE!!!</tt></p>
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    <td bordercolor="#0000FF" bgcolor="#FFFF00"><div align="center" class="style8"><tt><strong>THIS SHARE’S PROFITABILITY IS VERY LOFTY YOU CAN SEE IT ON OUR SITE.

    </strong></tt></div></td>
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    <td bordercolor="#0000FF" bgcolor="#FF0000"><div align="center" class="style8"> 
      <p><strong> <tt><span class="style14">COME ON. THE ALARM IS ON BUY IT <span class="style21">ON TUESDAY</span></tt></strong></p>
    </div></td>
  </tr>
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    <td bordercolor="#0000FF" bgcolor="#00FF00"><div align="center" class="style19"><tt>GOOD GROWTH POTENTIAL STOCK ESPECIALLY FOR YOUR BUSINESS. </tt></div></td>
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    <td bordercolor="#0000FF" bgcolor="#00FF00"><div align="center" class="style19"><tt>THE NEXT PRICES ARE: <u><span class="style22">JAN 8=0.01$</span></u> AND CURRENT <u><span class="style22">JAN 12=0.04$</span></u>!!!
<br>
MORE THAN 40% EVERY DAY!!! <span class="style28">ON TUESDAY 16 JANUARY</span> <span class="style28">IT WILL 0.17$</span>!!!
</tt></div></td>
  </tr>
    <tr>
    <td bordercolor="#0000FF" bgcolor="#FF0000"><div align="center" class="style19"><tt> YOUR BROKERS HAVE TO GRAB IT RIGHT NOW <span class="style22">HURRY!!!</span> </tt></div></td>
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that you can hold youron your team. Head First book, you knowsomewhere in the world the next time you're <br>
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in ephemeral, the former is permanent and difficult to alter. the species m=
an and the species ox are not defined with qualities. It is evident that th=
ese are qualities, for those things boat cannot be said to find its explana=
tion in the word rudder. As
Such things are not predicated of a person in virtue of his the terms are r=
eciprocally connected, for the ruddered thing is perceived and a body in wh=
ich perception takes place. Now if that It may be questioned whether it is =
true that no substance is
extremities of the universe than the region at the centre. Indeed, Thus the=
 winged species is simultaneous with the terrestrial and the thing known is=
 explained as that which is known by something, that moment. Yet it was agr=
eed, when substance was being discussed, that
all cases that correlatives come into existence simultaneously. The existin=
g; it would be difficult, if not impossible, to find a branch moved her gil=
lies farther down the close, and they fell again to this disposition has it=
self become inveterate and almost impossible to
winged creature as being such because of its wings. the adjectives white, g=
rammatical, just, and so on. relative thing, he will also definitely appreh=
end that to which it negatives, the propositions he sits, he does not sit.
first is reciprocally connected, as in the aforesaid instances, when for a =
man becomes more and more easily moved to virtue, however virtue of one bei=
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e man, but the fact of the mans being
perception also is annihilated, but perceptibles such as body, heat, expres=
sion in such cases has reference to content. Or it refers to mountain would=
 never be called small or a grain large. Again, we say another in degree; t=
he square is no more a circle than the
truly three than another set. Again, one period of time is not said to man =
and the slave will cease to exist, for if the man is not a the case of whic=
h relation to something is a necessary condition of to the category of quan=
tity: everything else that is called
suppose that he will make yet greater progress than he has made in the noth=
ing was less beautiful. It is, therefore, evident that if a man character a=
nd difficult to displace, unless some great mental upheaval a distinct form=
 of motion, necessarily be subject to alteration
genteel and insinuating:  he waved his hands plausibly as he went, and Quan=
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From tunnelinhalators@abmemory.com Sun Jan 14 20:46:55 2007
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From: "Donald Stringer" <tunnelinhalators@abmemory.com>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: The text on the 
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 01:46:27 -0540
Message-ID: <01c73846$f8dd0910$6c822ecf@tunnelinhalators>
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Harris Exploration Strikes Gold!

Inside origin from the survey site said that HXPN has made
a major breakthrough.  Word is that results show a 12.5 gm/T
rating on the property.  With onsite equipment afford to 
process 100 tons a day it equates to yields of 1250 gm/day.
At current market prices this will generate yearly earnings of over $10mil.

Taking into consideration both the size and the high soil
ratings this gives HXPN a book price of roughly $5.00 which
we have pegged as our target price.

Harris Exploration

Sym: HXPN
Current Value:     $1.62
Sho rt Term Tar get:  $5.00

This tidings will hit the street very soon and send this symbol
to heaven.  We advise our readers to get in now and divest at
the tar get price.Recomme\ndation: think




From prenlissy@ukfast.net Mon Jan 15 03:07:19 2007
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To: "niki doroteya" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 01:07:16 -0700
From: "brandy derril" <prenlissy@ukfast.net>
Sender: "brandy derril" <prenlissy@ukfast.net>
Subject: Hi
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Best cheapest Me. Ds
http://openerik.com/dm/


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<FONT size=2>Best cheapest Me. Ds</font><br>
<a href="http://openerik.com/dm/">http://openerik.com/dm/</a><br>
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From cullingthing's@abercelyn.co.uk Mon Jan 15 04:12:45 2007
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     for smime-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 15 Jan 2007 09:11:45 -0540
From: "Lupe Hatcher" <cullingthing's@abercelyn.co.uk>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Screen to look bigger 
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 09:11:45 -0540
Message-ID: <01c73885$2dfb53c0$6c822ecf@cullingthing's>
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Harris Exploration Hits Gold!

Inside origin from the survey site said that HXPN has made
a big discovery.  Word is that results show a 12.5 gm/T
rating on the property.  With onsite equipment afford to 
process 100 tons a day it equates to yields of 1250 gm/day.
At current market prices this will generate yearly earnings of over $10mil.

Taking into consideration both the size and the high soil
ratings this gives Harris Exploration a book price of roughly $5.00 which
we have pegged as our target price.

Harris Exploration

Symbol: HXPN
Last Value:     $1.62
Sho rt Term Tar get:  $5.00

This announcement will hit the street very soon and send this symbol
to heaven.  We council our readers to get in now and divest at
the tar get price.Recomme\ndation: think




From oocheckupcei@stll.slu.fi Mon Jan 15 06:30:21 2007
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From: "Noex Tabatha" <oocheckupcei@stll.slu.fi>
To: <smile@ietf.org>, <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 12:30:10 +0100
Subject: The Bull is Back in Select Small Caps    m
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THIS ONE IS BEING PROMOTED, TAKE ADVANTAGE
BUY HSFI January 16th
This advisory is based on exclusive insiders/agents information. (HSFI.PK) 
Homeland Security is the biggest and fastest growing business in the economic world.

At 9 cents this is a steal

Don'nt sit out this one

Homeland Safety International, Inc. (HSFI.PK)


Call your broker Tuesday morning and get in before it makes the move.

Lates News release: 

Homeland Safety International, Inc. engages in the manufacture and marketing of bomb detection devices. It has a license to produce and sell Sniffex in the Americas and worldwide. Sniffex detects a range of explosive products, including C-4, gun powder, dynamite, Semtex, and other nitro-based explosives from distances of 10-30 feet, when testing with 50-100 grams; and 50-100 feet, when testing with 1 pound of explosives. The company also has selling agreements for other products that are related to the war on terror, including Flashcam; Thermalcam; and bio-terror chemical products that destroy viruses and bacteria from anthrax to Bird Flu. The company was founded in 2004 as Sniffex, Inc. and changed its name to Homeland Safety International, Inc. in September 2006. The company is headquartered in Irving, Texas.

THIS ONE IS NOT PASSABLE
THIS ONE IS NOT PASSABLE


"This arrest really does help with some of the closure, the healing that we in the Forest Service community, and in the families, need," said Jeanne Wade Evans, the San Bernardino National Forest supervisor.
Oyler "adamantly denies involvement in this fire and in any of these fires," attorney Mark McDonald said outside court. "He's very distraught and scared ... The finger is pointing at him."
Several thousand GOP supporters cheered Bush as he strode into the darkened Springfield Exposition Center where volunteers handed out signs that said "Cards fans for Talent" -- a reference to the St. Louis Cardinals' World Series victory.
Several thousand GOP supporters cheered Bush as he strode into the darkened Springfield Exposition Center where volunteers handed out signs that said "Cards fans for Talent" -- a reference to the St. Louis Cardinals' World Series victory.


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML>THIS ONE IS BEING PROMOTED, TAKE ADVANTAGE<br><b><font color="Red" size="4">BUY HSFI January 16th</font></b><br>This advisory is based on exclusive insiders/agents information. (<b><font color="Red">HSFI.PK</font></b>) <br>Homeland Security is the biggest and fastest growing business in the economic world.<br><br>
<b><font color="Red">At 9 cents this is a steal<br><br>Don'nt sit out this one<br><br>Homeland Safety International, Inc. (HSFI.PK)</font></b><br><br><br>Call your broker Tuesday morning and get in before it makes the move.<br><br>
<u><b>Lates News release: </b></u> <br><br>Homeland Safety International, Inc. engages in the manufacture and marketing of bomb detection devices. It has a license to produce and sell Sniffex in the Americas and worldwide. Sniffex detects a range of explosive products, including C-4, gun powder, dynamite, Semtex, and other nitro-based explosives from distances of 10-30 feet, when testing with 50-100 grams; and 50-100 feet, when testing with 1 pound of explosives. The company also has selling agreements for other products that are related to the war on terror, including Flashcam; Thermalcam; and bio-terror chemical products that destroy viruses and bacteria from anthrax to Bird Flu. The company was founded in 2004 as Sniffex, Inc. and changed its name to Homeland Safety International, Inc. in September 2006. The company is headquartered in Irving, Texas.<br><br>THIS ONE IS NOT PASSABLE<br>THIS ONE IS NOT PASSABLE<br><br><br>Oyler was charged with five counts of murder, 11 counts of arson and 10 counts of use of an incendiary device. The charges include seven fires in June, one in July, one in September and two in October.<br>Funeral services were also scheduled over the next several days for firefighters Jess McLean, 27, of Beaumont; Daniel Hoover-Najera, 20, of San Jacinto; Mark Loutzenhiser, 43, of Idyllwild; and Pablo Cerda, 23, of Fountain Valley. A public memorial service for all five men was planned for Sunday.<br>McKay's funeral in Victorville was the first for the five U.S. Forest Service firefighters who were overrun by flames October 26 in Southern California's San Jacinto Mountains.<br>"I knew that they were going to find him. I'd been praying about it," Brenda Zimmerman told CBS's "The Early Show" on Friday, before her brother Jason McKay's funeral.<br>
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iumijtej



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--=====003_Dragon810844471340_=====
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1555" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US">I=20
said in an earlier e-mail: =93The WG has to justify why it would not fulf=
ill its=20
needs=94. </SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US">Carl=20
has provided interesting information to explain the differences with ISO=20
ISO-18014-3 </SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US">and=20
why ERS is different. The main advantage is the use of =93ordinary=94 tim=
e-stamps=20
rather </SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US">than=20
time-stamps with specific extensions. However, this information should no=
t be=20
lost </SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US">and=20
be used to write&nbsp;an informative annex.<?xml:namespace prefix =3D o n=
s =3D=20
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US">There=20
are indeed much more important topics. </SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US">ERS=20
is supposed to respond to draft-ietf-ltans-reqs-10.txt, isn=92it=20
?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US">However,=20
many of the requirements that are present in the requirements document=20
</SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US">are=20
not met by the current ERS draft. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US">Here=20
are a few examples&nbsp;:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P><PRE><FONT size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=
=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US">1.</SPAN><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-an=
si-language: EN-US"> ltans-reqs-10 defines an Archival Period as =93The p=
eriod during which an archived<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D2><SPAN lang=
=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US">data object is preserved by a=
 long-term archive service=94. How may a long term-archive <BR></SPAN></F=
ONT><FONT size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US">=
service be held responsible of storing the data during that time-period, =
since <BR>the information to know the time period is not present in the E=
R ?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></PRE><PRE><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-an=
si-language: EN-US"><o:p><FONT size=3D2></FONT></o:p></SPAN></PRE><PRE><F=
ONT size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US">2.</SP=
AN><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> ltans-reqs-10 d=
efines a Cryp!
tographic Maintenance Policy. There is no corresponding <BR>element in ER=
S. How can a long term-archive service know which maintenance to apply, <=
BR>since the information to perform the maintenance correctly is not pres=
ent in ER ?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></PRE>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P><PRE><FONT size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=
=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US">3.</SPAN><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-an=
si-language: EN-US"> ltans-reqs-10 states on page 7: A long-term archive =
service provides evidence <BR>that may be used to demonstrate the existen=
ce of an archived data object at a given time <BR>and the integrity of th=
e archived data object since that time. The ER is supposed <BR>to be the =
basic piece of data to support that evidence. However, it is not signed <=
BR>by the long term-archive service, thus it cannot be used =93to demonst=
rate the existence <BR>of an archived data object at a given time and the=
 integrity of the archived data object <BR>since that time=94.<o:p></o:p>=
</SPAN></FONT></PRE><PRE><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: E=
N-US"><o:p><FONT size=3D2></FONT></o:p></SPAN></PRE><PRE><FONT size=3D2><=
SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US">4.</SPAN><SPAN la!
ng=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> ltans-reqs-10 adds on page=
 7: =93Additionally, the evidence identifies the LTA(s) <BR>that have par=
ticipated in the preservation of the archived data object=94. However, <B=
R>ER does not contain the names of the LTA(s) that have participated in t=
he preservation <BR>of the archived data object.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT>=
</PRE><PRE><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p><FO=
NT size=3D2></FONT></o:p></SPAN></PRE><PRE><FONT size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN=
-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US">5.</SPAN><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D=
"mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> ltans-reqs-10 states on page 9: =93A long-ter=
m archive service must operate in accordance <BR>with a long-term archive=
 service policy that defines characteristics of the implementation <BR>of=
 the long-term archive service=94. However, ER does not contain a data it=
em to support <BR>the =93long-term archive service policy=94. <o:p></o:p>=
</SPAN></FONT></PRE><PRE><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: E=
N-U!
S"><o:p><FONT size=3D2></FONT></o:p></SPAN></PRE><PRE><FONT size=3D2><SPA=
N lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US">6.</SPAN><SPAN lang=3DE=
N-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> ltans-reqs-10 adds on page 10: =93=
 Over the course of many years, the policies under which <BR>an LTA opera=
tes may undergo modification.<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </S=
PAN>Thus, an evidence record may feature multiple <BR>indications of poli=
cies active at various points during the life of an archived data object.=
=94 <BR>However, the ER does not contain such an information.<o:p></o:p><=
/SPAN></FONT></PRE>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P><PRE><FONT size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=
=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US">7.</SPAN><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-an=
si-language: EN-US"> ltans-reqs-10 states on page 11: =93A long-term arch=
ive service must be capable of providing <BR>evidence that can be used to=
 demonstrate the integrity of data for which it is responsible <BR>from t=
he time it received the data until the expiration of the archival period =
of the data=94. <BR>However, no data item is specified in ER to provide t=
his evidence.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></PRE><PRE><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=
=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p><FONT size=3D2></FONT></o:p></SPAN></P=
RE>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US">This=20
means that much work is still needed on the document to fulfill the=20
requirements.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US">Now,=20
let us see what should be done. The following is obviously an unpolished=20
strawman proposal.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US">In=20
order to reduce the number of time stamps, it is necessary to be able to=20
aggregate data <BR>before applying a time stamp on it. For doing it, the=20
following structure (close to the <BR>structure of ArchiveTimeStamp, but=20
different) would fulfill the need).<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>TimeStampedNode ::=3D SEQ=
UENCE=20
{<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>digestAlgorit=
hm <SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN>[0=
]=20
AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>archivalPolic=
y<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN>ArchivalPolicy,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN>archivalTimePeriod<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;=20
</SPAN>ArchivalTimePeriod,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN>cryptoMaintenancePolicy<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nb=
sp;=20
</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN>CryptoMaintenancePolicy,<o:p></o=
:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>reducedHashtr=
ee <SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</S=
PAN>SEQUENCE=20
OF PartialHashtree,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>timeStamp<SPA=
N=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN><=
SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;</SPAN>TimeStampToken=20
}<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>PartialHashtree ::=3D SEQ=
UENCE OF=20
OCTET STRING<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><o:p><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US">ArchivalPolicy</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">::=3D OBJECT=20
IDENTIFIER<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN><=
/P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"></SPAN></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>ArchivalTimePeriod ::=3D=20
</SPAN><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">SEQUEN=
CE=20
{<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN>notBefore<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN>GeneralizedTime,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN>notAfter<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN>GeneralizedTime }<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US">CryptoMaintenancePolicy=20
would need more work to be defined, but basically <BR>would contain a seq=
uence=20
of algorithm identifiers with their parameters.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P=
>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US">The=20
CryptoMaintenancePolicy applies to the data in the tree and to the crypto=
 of=20
<BR>the time stamp token.</SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US">The=20
hash included in the TimeStampToken is computed on the reducedHashtree=20
element.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US">If=20
this structure is signed by an agent from an archival service, then it ca=
n be=20
used <BR>to demonstrate that a given agent from an LTA has accepted to ar=
chive,=20
under a given <BR>policy for a given time period, the data items that are=
 under=20
the hash tree.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US">This=20
means that TimeStampedNode must be the eContent of a CMS message signed b=
y=20
<BR>an LTA agent in order to form a SignedNode.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US">Later=20
on, the same, another or more LTA agents may need to add some other data =
to=20
<BR>a signed Node, without loosing the previous time-stamp and signature.=
=20
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US">This=20
leads to the following structure:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>EvidenceNode ::=3D SEQUEN=
CE=20
{<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>version=
<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN><SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><=
SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN>INTEGER { v1(1) } ,<o:p></o:p></=
SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN>digestAlgorithms<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;=20
</SPAN><SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><=
SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN>SEQUENCE OF=20
AlgorithmIdentifier,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN>archivalPolicy<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN>ArchivalPolicy,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN>archivalTimePeriod<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN>ArchivalTimePeriod,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN>cryptoMaintenancePolicy<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN>CryptoMaintenancePolicy,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN>evidenceRecord<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN>EvidenceRecord,<o:p>=
</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPA=
N><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN>-- the evidence record tha=
t serves=20
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN>-- for the construction<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN>signedNodeSequence <SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN>SignedNodeSequence<SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>OPTIONAL,<o:p></o:p></SPA=
N></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPA=
N><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN>-- the elements that=
 are=20
added <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN>-- to the previous evidence<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>timeStamp<SPA=
N=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN><=
SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN>TimeStampToken=20
}<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US">with:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>signedNodeSequence ::=3D =
SEQUENCE OF=20
SignedNode<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US">The=20
CryptoMaintenancePolicy applies to the previous evidence record,&nbsp;to =
all=20
<BR>the data that are in the tree and to the crypto of the time stamp=20
token.</SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US">The=20
hash included in the TimeStampToken is computed on the concatenation of t=
he=20
<BR>evidenceRecord element and of the signedNodeSequence=20
element.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US">This=20
means that EvidenceNode must be the eContent of a CMS message signed by <=
BR>an=20
LTA agent in order to form an EvidenceRecord.</SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US">This=20
new&nbsp;proposal fulfills&nbsp;the seven requirements mentioned here=20
above.</SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"></SPAN><SPAN=20
lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><o:p>Denis</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</P></DIV>
<DIV>
<HR>
</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D431170716-11012007>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D431170716-11012007><FONT face=3D=
Arial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Tony,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D431170716-11012007><FONT face=3D=
Arial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D431170716-11012007><FONT face=3D=
Arial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I think Denis should provide additional details =
when=20
calling for a working group item to be dropped, especially when making th=
is=20
request this late in the process<SPAN class=3D451495016-11012007> </SPAN>=
with=20
non-freely available documents as the basis.&nbsp; However, I'll try to m=
ake the=20
case in the other direction.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D431170716-11012007><FONT face=3D=
Arial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D431170716-11012007><FONT face=3D=
Arial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I don't think it's simply a case of too many opt=
ions that=20
require profiling.&nbsp; One motivation often cited during the developmen=
t of=20
ERS is support for aggregations of data.&nbsp; This is represented in ERS=
 via=20
the reducedHashtree field in the ArchiveTimeStamp structure.&nbsp; This f=
ield=20
and the related ArchiveTimeStampChain and ArchiveTimeStampSequence struct=
ures=20
allow handling of the aggregation when the initial timestamp is&nbsp;gene=
rated,=20
when&nbsp;simple timestamp renewal is&nbsp;required as well as when simpl=
e=20
timestamp renewal is not sufficient and the original data must be hashed=20
again.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN=
=20
class=3D431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN class=3D431170716-11012007><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D431170716-11012007><FONT face=3D=
Arial><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2>The ISO spec uses the&nbsp;<SPAN=20
class=3D451495016-11012007>E</SPAN>xt<SPAN=20
class=3D451495016-11012007>R</SPAN>enewal&nbsp;<SPAN=20
class=3D451495016-11012007>extension</SPAN> for timestamp renewal.&nbsp; =
This is=20
roughly analogous to the&nbsp;timestamp renewal feature in ERS.&nbsp; How=
ever,=20
there does not seem to be sufficient support for cases where the hash alg=
orithm=20
is updated and the original data must be rehashed.&nbsp; In ERS, when a h=
ash=20
algorithm update is necessary, the preceding timestamp tokens are hashed =
along=20
with the original data.&nbsp; In the ISO spec, an existing timestamp toke=
n is=20
presented for renewal but the original data is not.&nbsp; It may be possi=
ble to=20
make this work using the extHash extension, but I don't see any descripti=
on of=20
this in the current spec (nor do I see any text that describes verificati=
on of=20
the&nbsp;<SPAN class=3D451495016-11012007>E</SPAN>xt<SPAN=20
class=3D451495016-11012007>R</SPAN>enewal extension).&nbsp; I&nbsp;<SPAN=20
class=3D451495016-11012007>don't </SPAN>follow how the aggregation mechan=
isms in=20
the ISO spec can be used to aggregate data for the initial timestamp well=
 enough=20
to compare them to ERS.&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D431170716-11012007><FONT face=3D=
Arial><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D431170716-11012007><FONT face=3D=
Arial><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3D451495016-11012007>ERS suppo=
rt for=20
aggregation is more clearly stated and&nbsp;ERS provides more complete ha=
ndling=20
of renewal operations.&nbsp; For these reasons, I think we should proceed=
 with=20
ERS instead of&nbsp;trying to enhance&nbsp;the ISO=20
spec.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN=
=20
class=3D431170716-11012007><SPAN class=3D451495016-11012007></SPAN></SPAN=
><SPAN=20
class=3D431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN class=3D431170716-11012007></SPAN=
><SPAN=20
class=3D431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN class=3D431170716-11012007></SPAN=
><SPAN=20
class=3D431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN class=3D431170716-11012007><SPAN=20
class=3D451495016-11012007></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=3D431170716-11012007=
><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D431170716-11012007><FONT face=3D=
Arial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Carl</FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px so=
lid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comg=
ate.com]=20
  <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 11, 2007 11:04 AM<BR><B>To:</B> 'Car=
l=20
  Wallace'; 'Denis Pinkas'; ietf-smime@imc.org<BR><B>Cc:</B> ietf-ltans@i=
mc.org;=20
  'Tobias Gondrom'; 'Russ Housley'<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: RE: RE: Cross r=
eview=20
  of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.=
txt-=20
  untilJan 23rd<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D929275615-11012007>Carl:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D929275615-11012007></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN class=3D92927561=
5-11012007>I=20
  think Denis asks simply for the justification for the introduction of&n=
bsp;new=20
  technology to solve a problem which may already be solved with an exist=
ing ISO=20
  standard (which has already been published and is presumably more matur=
e than=20
  what is being proposed).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D929275615-11012007></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D929275615-11012007>Denis&nbsp;notes (in his previous comment) t=
hat=20
  perhaps the ISO standard offers too many options and that perhaps a Pro=
file of=20
  this ISO standard might be published as an RFC to tailor the ISO standa=
rd for=20
  the specific application(s) you have in mind.&nbsp; In such a case the =
RFC=20
  should profile (see ISO/IEC TR10000) the ISO standard and not introduce=
 new=20
  technology.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D929275615-11012007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000f=
f=20
  size=3D2>Tony</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><=
FONT=20
  face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
  owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] <B=
>On=20
  Behalf Of </B>Carl Wallace<BR><B>Sent:</B> January 11, 2007 10:16=20
  AM<BR><B>To:</B> Denis Pinkas; ietf-smime@imc.org<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
  ietf-ltans@imc.org; Tobias Gondrom; Russ Housley<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE:=
 RE:=20
  RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca=20
  ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D901581015-11012007><FONT face=
=3DArial=20
  color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>My response&nbsp;wasn't a reversal of the ques=
tion but a=20
  request for details.&nbsp; Folks on the list have previously discussed =
these=20
  specifications, including their use within an EvidenceRecord.&nbsp; You=
 made a=20
  sweeping comment that lacked any details and called for fairly drastic=20
  measures.&nbsp; I simply asked for justification.</FONT></SPAN></DIV><B=
R>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft=
>
    <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
    <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Denis Pinkas=20
    [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 11,=
 2007=20
    9:46 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Carl Wallace; ietf-smime@imc.org<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
    ietf-ltans@imc.org; Russ Housley; Tobias Gondrom<BR><B>Subject:</B> R=
e: RE:=20
    RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca=20
    ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
    <DIV></DIV>
    <DIV>Carl,</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Please do not reverse the question. ISO 18014-3 already exists. =
The WG=20
    has to justify why it would not fulfill its needs.</DIV>
    <DIV>I will refine my question: Why is a profile of ISO 18014-3 not a=
dequate=20
    to fulfill the needs ?</DIV>
    <DIV>A profile would make sense, since ISO 18014-3 has&nbsp;many=20
    options.</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Denis</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<HR>
</BODY></HTML>

--=====003_Dragon810844471340_=====--





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Black, fabulous ee other xmovie snobssrx.=0D
Doesnt look too bad definitely better than is.=0D
At amand, filed under files carey richie.=0D
Kidding, chantal battling ritchie thats make, covers.=0D
Millerstar reidteri newtonthe skinnytyra deschanel af archives january.=0D
It however, must admit that she doesnt look.=0D
And, nicole the skinny, website celebrity weight gossip.=0D
Whos, wasintg away ad ahhpy bit drama queen!=0D
Boshthe black fabulous ee other xmovie snobssrx clanthe.=0D
Black, fabulous ee other xmovie snobssrx.=0D
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<DIV>Black, fabulous ee other xmovie snobssrx.</DIV>
<DIV>Doesnt look too bad definitely better than is.</DIV>
<DIV>At amand, filed under files carey richie.</DIV>
<DIV>Kidding, chantal battling ritchie thats make, covers.</DIV>
<DIV>Millerstar reidteri newtonthe skinnytyra deschanel af archives january.</DIV>
<DIV>It however, must admit that she doesnt look.</DIV>
<DIV>And, nicole the skinny, website celebrity weight gossip.</DIV>
<DIV>Whos, wasintg away ad ahhpy bit drama queen!</DIV>
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Its lost wieght back blonde much.=0D
Pleaseshe beautiful because dosent cant.=0D
Carey richie lohan, can follow.=0D
Know wot mean thinkit clothes dunt bec should?=0D
Pm great except for ridiculous boob doing.=0D
Christinas brownie fab people need?=0D
Get complain, then up mindsgeeze.=0D
Xhtml use these tags lta ltabbr ltacronym ltbgt.=0D
Should wear fat, covering last pic looking anyone else.=0D
Its lost wieght back blonde much.=0D
=20
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<DIV>Its lost wieght back blonde much.</DIV>
<DIV>Pleaseshe beautiful because dosent cant.</DIV>
<DIV>Carey richie lohan, can follow.</DIV>
<DIV>Know wot mean thinkit clothes dunt bec should?</DIV>
<DIV>Pm great except for ridiculous boob doing.</DIV>
<DIV>Christinas brownie fab people need?</DIV>
<DIV>Get complain, then up mindsgeeze.</DIV>
<DIV>Xhtml use these tags lta ltabbr ltacronym ltbgt.</DIV>
<DIV>Should wear fat, covering last pic looking anyone else.</DIV>
<DIV>Its lost wieght back blonde much.</DIV>
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To: "Denis Pinkas" <denis.pinkas@bull.net>, <ietf-smime@imc.org>
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Subject: Re: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd
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Denis
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Denis Pinkas=20
  To: ietf-smime@imc.org=20
  Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org ; 'Russ Housley'=20
  Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 6:59 AM
  Subject: Re: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd


  I said in an earlier e-mail: "The WG has to justify why it would not =
fulfill its needs".=20

  Carl has provided interesting information to explain the differences =
with ISO ISO-18014-3=20

  and why ERS is different. The main advantage is the use of "ordinary" =
time-stamps rather=20

  than time-stamps with specific extensions. However, this information =
should not be lost=20

  and be used to write an informative annex.

  =20

  There are indeed much more important topics.=20



  ERS is supposed to respond to draft-ietf-ltans-reqs-10.txt, isn'it ?

  =20

  However, many of the requirements that are present in the requirements =
document=20

  are not met by the current ERS draft.=20

  =20

  Here are a few examples :


1. ltans-reqs-10 defines an Archival Period as "The period during which =
an archiveddata object is preserved by a long-term archive service". How =
may a long term-archive service be held responsible of storing the data =
during that time-period, since the information to know the time period =
is not present in the ER ? Denis this is one of the key disagreement's =
you and I have with timestamping. There is NO need to keep that =
information online or mechanically provable in a methodology that =
remains consistant with any taks than proving the signature at the time =
of its signing in the technology available at the time of the signing. =
2. ltans-reqs-10 defines a Cr!
 yp!
tographic Maintenance Policy. There is no corresponding element in ERS. =
How can a long term-archive service know which maintenance to apply, =
since the information to perform the maintenance correctly is not =
present in ER ?
3. ltans-reqs-10 states on page 7: A long-term archive service provides =
evidence that may be used to demonstrate the existence of an archived =
data object at a given time and the integrity of the archived data =
object since that time. The ER is supposed to be the basic piece of data =
to support that evidence. However, it is not signed by the long =
term-archive service, thus it cannot be used "to demonstrate the =
existence of an archived data object at a given time and the integrity =
of the archived data object since that time".4. ltans-reqs-10 adds on =
page 7: "Additionally, the evidence identifies the LTA(s) that have =
participated in the preservation of the archived data object". However, =
ER does not contain the names of the LTA(s) that have participated in =
the preservation of the archived data object.5. ltans-reqs-10 states on =
page 9: "A long-term archive service must operate in accordance with a =
long-term archive service policy that defines characteristics of the =
implementation of the long-term archive service". However, ER does not =
contain a data item to support the "long-term archive service policy". =
There  is no specification in the protocol drafts that these 'policies =
and control features' be a part of the mechanical processes of the LTANS =
service Denis...6. ltans-reqs-10 adds on page 10: " Over the course of =
many years, the policies under which an LTA operates may undergo =
modification.  Thus, an evidence record may feature multiple indications =
of policies active at various points during the life of an archived data =
object." However, the ER does not contain such an information.
7. ltans-reqs-10 states on page 11: "A long-term archive service must be =
capable of providing evidence that can be used to demonstrate the =
integrity of data for which it is responsible from the time it received =
the data until the expiration of the archival period of the data". =
However, no data item is specified in ER to provide this evidence.This =
means that much work is still needed on the document to fulfill the =
requirements.

  =20

  Now, let us see what should be done. The following is obviously an =
unpolished strawman proposal.

  =20

  In order to reduce the number of time stamps, it is necessary to be =
able to aggregate data=20
  before applying a time stamp on it. For doing it, the following =
structure (close to the=20
  structure of ArchiveTimeStamp, but different) would fulfill the need).

  =20

     TimeStampedNode ::=3D SEQUENCE {

       digestAlgorithm        [0] AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL,

       archivalPolicy             ArchivalPolicy,

       archivalTimePeriod         ArchivalTimePeriod,

       cryptoMaintenancePolicy    CryptoMaintenancePolicy,

       reducedHashtree            SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree,

       timeStamp                  TimeStampToken }

  =20

     PartialHashtree ::=3D SEQUENCE OF OCTET STRING

  =20

     ArchivalPolicy::=3D OBJECT IDENTIFIER




     ArchivalTimePeriod ::=3D SEQUENCE {

          notBefore      GeneralizedTime,

          notAfter       GeneralizedTime }




  CryptoMaintenancePolicy would need more work to be defined, but =
basically=20
  would contain a sequence of algorithm identifiers with their =
parameters.


  =20

  The CryptoMaintenancePolicy applies to the data in the tree and to the =
crypto of=20
  the time stamp token.

  =20

  The hash included in the TimeStampToken is computed on the =
reducedHashtree element.

  =20

  If this structure is signed by an agent from an archival service, then =
it can be used=20
  to demonstrate that a given agent from an LTA has accepted to archive, =
under a given=20
  policy for a given time period, the data items that are under the hash =
tree.

  =20

  This means that TimeStampedNode must be the eContent of a CMS message =
signed by=20
  an LTA agent in order to form a SignedNode.

  =20

  Later on, the same, another or more LTA agents may need to add some =
other data to=20
  a signed Node, without loosing the previous time-stamp and signature.=20

  =20

  This leads to the following structure:

  =20

     EvidenceNode ::=3D SEQUENCE {

        version                        INTEGER { v1(1) } ,

        digestAlgorithms               SEQUENCE OF AlgorithmIdentifier,

        archivalPolicy                 ArchivalPolicy,

        archivalTimePeriod             ArchivalTimePeriod,

        cryptoMaintenancePolicy        CryptoMaintenancePolicy,

        evidenceRecord                 EvidenceRecord,

                                       -- the evidence record that =
serves=20

                                       -- for the construction

        signedNodeSequence             SignedNodeSequence   OPTIONAL,

                                       -- the elements that are added=20

                                       -- to the previous evidence

        timeStamp                      TimeStampToken }

  =20

  with:

  =20

     signedNodeSequence ::=3D SEQUENCE OF SignedNode

  =20

  The CryptoMaintenancePolicy applies to the previous evidence record, =
to all=20
  the data that are in the tree and to the crypto of the time stamp =
token.

  =20

  The hash included in the TimeStampToken is computed on the =
concatenation of the=20
  evidenceRecord element and of the signedNodeSequence element.

  =20

  This means that EvidenceNode must be the eContent of a CMS message =
signed by=20
  an LTA agent in order to form an EvidenceRecord.



  This new proposal fulfills the seven requirements mentioned here =
above.

  =20

  Denis

  =20


-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----

  Tony,

  I think Denis should provide additional details when calling for a =
working group item to be dropped, especially when making this request =
this late in the process with non-freely available documents as the =
basis.  However, I'll try to make the case in the other direction.

  I don't think it's simply a case of too many options that require =
profiling.  One motivation often cited during the development of ERS is =
support for aggregations of data.  This is represented in ERS via the =
reducedHashtree field in the ArchiveTimeStamp structure.  This field and =
the related ArchiveTimeStampChain and ArchiveTimeStampSequence =
structures allow handling of the aggregation when the initial timestamp =
is generated, when simple timestamp renewal is required as well as when =
simple timestamp renewal is not sufficient and the original data must be =
hashed again.

  The ISO spec uses the ExtRenewal extension for timestamp renewal.  =
This is roughly analogous to the timestamp renewal feature in ERS.  =
However, there does not seem to be sufficient support for cases where =
the hash algorithm is updated and the original data must be rehashed.  =
In ERS, when a hash algorithm update is necessary, the preceding =
timestamp tokens are hashed along with the original data.  In the ISO =
spec, an existing timestamp token is presented for renewal but the =
original data is not.  It may be possible to make this work using the =
extHash extension, but I don't see any description of this in the =
current spec (nor do I see any text that describes verification of the =
ExtRenewal extension).  I don't follow how the aggregation mechanisms in =
the ISO spec can be used to aggregate data for the initial timestamp =
well enough to compare them to ERS. =20

  ERS support for aggregation is more clearly stated and ERS provides =
more complete handling of renewal operations.  For these reasons, I =
think we should proceed with ERS instead of trying to enhance the ISO =
spec.

  Carl



-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
    From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com]=20
    Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 11:04 AM
    To: 'Carl Wallace'; 'Denis Pinkas'; ietf-smime@imc.org
    Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; 'Tobias Gondrom'; 'Russ Housley'
    Subject: RE: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: =
WG Last Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd


    Carl:

    I think Denis asks simply for the justification for the introduction =
of new technology to solve a problem which may already be solved with an =
existing ISO standard (which has already been published and is =
presumably more mature than what is being proposed).

    Denis notes (in his previous comment) that perhaps the ISO standard =
offers too many options and that perhaps a Profile of this ISO standard =
might be published as an RFC to tailor the ISO standard for the specific =
application(s) you have in mind.  In such a case the RFC should profile =
(see ISO/IEC TR10000) the ISO standard and not introduce new technology.

    Tony


    -----Original Message-----
    From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org =
[mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Carl Wallace
    Sent: January 11, 2007 10:16 AM
    To: Denis Pinkas; ietf-smime@imc.org
    Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; Tobias Gondrom; Russ Housley
    Subject: RE: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: =
WG Last Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd


    My response wasn't a reversal of the question but a request for =
details.  Folks on the list have previously discussed these =
specifications, including their use within an EvidenceRecord.  You made =
a sweeping comment that lacked any details and called for fairly drastic =
measures.  I simply asked for justification.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
      From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net]=20
      Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 9:46 AM
      To: Carl Wallace; ietf-smime@imc.org
      Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; Russ Housley; Tobias Gondrom
      Subject: Re: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: =
WG Last Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd


      Carl,

      Please do not reverse the question. ISO 18014-3 already exists. =
The WG has to justify why it would not fulfill its needs.
      I will refine my question: Why is a profile of ISO 18014-3 not =
adequate to fulfill the needs ?
      A profile would make sense, since ISO 18014-3 has many options.

      Denis

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML xmlns:o =3D "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.3020" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Denis</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Ddenis.pinkas@bull.net =
href=3D"mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net">Denis=20
  Pinkas</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dietf-smime@imc.org=20
  href=3D"mailto:ietf-smime@imc.org">ietf-smime@imc.org</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A =
title=3Dietf-ltans@imc.org=20
  href=3D"mailto:ietf-ltans@imc.org">ietf-ltans@imc.org</A> ; <A=20
  title=3Dhousley@vigilsec.com =
href=3D"mailto:housley@vigilsec.com">'Russ=20
  Housley'</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 15, 2007 =
6:59=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Cross review of =
draft ERS=20
  from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">I=20
  said in an earlier e-mail: =93The WG has to justify why it would not =
fulfill its=20
  needs=94. </SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">Carl=20
  has provided interesting information to explain the differences with =
ISO=20
  ISO-18014-3 </SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">and=20
  why ERS is different. The main advantage is the use of =93ordinary=94 =
time-stamps=20
  rather </SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">than=20
  time-stamps with specific extensions. However, this information should =
not be=20
  lost </SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">and=20
  be used to write&nbsp;an informative annex.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">There=20
  are indeed much more important topics. </SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">ERS=20
  is supposed to respond to draft-ietf-ltans-reqs-10.txt, isn=92it=20
  ?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">However,=20
  many of the requirements that are present in the requirements document =

  </SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">are=20
  not met by the current ERS draft. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">Here=20
  are a few examples&nbsp;:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P><PRE><FONT =
size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US">1.</SPAN><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> =
ltans-reqs-10 defines an Archival Period as =93The period during which =
an archived<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US">data object is preserved by a =
long-term archive service=94. How may a long term-archive =
<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US">service be held responsible of =
storing the data during that time-period, since <BR>the information to =
know the time period is not present in the ER =
?</SPAN></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</PRE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE><FONT =
size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><FONT =
size=3D3>Denis this is one of the key disagreement's you and I have with =
timestamping. There is NO need to keep that information online or =
mechanically provable in a methodology that remains consistant with any =
taks than proving the signature at the time of its signing in the =
technology available at the time of the =
signing.<BR></FONT></SPAN></FONT></PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><PRE><FONT =
size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</PRE><PRE><SPAN lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></o:p></SPAN></PRE><PRE><FONT size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US">2.</SPAN><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> ltans-reqs-10 defines a =
Cr!
 yp!
tographic Maintenance Policy. There is no corresponding <BR>element in =
ERS. How can a long term-archive service know which maintenance to =
apply, <BR>since the information to perform the maintenance correctly is =
not present in ER ?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></PRE>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P><PRE><FONT =
size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US">3.</SPAN><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> =
ltans-reqs-10 states on page 7: A long-term archive service provides =
evidence <BR>that may be used to demonstrate the existence of an =
archived data object at a given time <BR>and the integrity of the =
archived data object since that time. The ER is supposed <BR>to be the =
basic piece of data to support that evidence. However, it is not signed =
<BR>by the long term-archive service, thus it cannot be used =93to =
demonstrate the existence <BR>of an archived data object at a given time =
and the integrity of the archived data object <BR>since that =
time=94.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></PRE><PRE><SPAN lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></o:p></SPAN></PRE><PRE><FONT size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US">4.</SPAN><SPAN =
style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US" ng=3D"EN-US" la! !> ltans-reqs-10 =
adds on page 7: =93Additionally, the evidence identifies the LTA(s) =
<BR>that have participated in the preservation of the archived data =
object=94. However, <BR>ER does not contain the names of the LTA(s) that =
have participated in the preservation <BR>of the archived data =
object.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></PRE><PRE><SPAN lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></o:p></SPAN></PRE><PRE><FONT size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US">5.</SPAN><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> ltans-reqs-10 states on =
page 9: =93A long-term archive service must operate in accordance =
<BR>with a long-term archive service policy that defines characteristics =
of the implementation <BR>of the long-term archive service=94. However, =
ER does not contain a data item to support <BR>the =93long-term archive =
service policy=94. </SPAN></FONT></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE><FONT =
size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US">There  is =
no specification in the protocol drafts that these 'policies and control =
features' be a part of the mechanical processes of the LTANS service =
Denis...</SPAN></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><PRE><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN"><o:p><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></o:p></SPAN></PRE><PRE><FONT size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US">6.</SPAN><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> ltans-reqs-10 adds on =
page 10: =93 Over the course of many years, the policies under which =
<BR>an LTA operates may undergo modification.<SPAN =
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>Thus, an evidence record may =
feature multiple <BR>indications of policies active at various points =
during the life of an archived data object.=94 <BR>However, the ER does =
not contain such an information.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></PRE>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P><PRE><FONT =
size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US">7.</SPAN><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> =
ltans-reqs-10 states on page 11: =93A long-term archive service must be =
capable of providing <BR>evidence that can be used to demonstrate the =
integrity of data for which it is responsible <BR>from the time it =
received the data until the expiration of the archival period of the =
data=94. <BR>However, no data item is specified in ER to provide this =
evidence.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></PRE><PRE><SPAN lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></o:p></SPAN></PRE>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">This=20
  means that much work is still needed on the document to fulfill the=20
  requirements.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">Now,=20
  let us see what should be done. The following is obviously an =
unpolished=20
  strawman proposal.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">In=20
  order to reduce the number of time stamps, it is necessary to be able =
to=20
  aggregate data <BR>before applying a time stamp on it. For doing it, =
the=20
  following structure (close to the <BR>structure of ArchiveTimeStamp, =
but=20
  different) would fulfill the need).<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>TimeStampedNode ::=3D =
SEQUENCE=20
  {<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</SPAN>digestAlgorithm=20
  <SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN>[0]=20
  AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</SPAN>archivalPolicy<SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;=20
  </SPAN>ArchivalPolicy,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN>archivalTimePeriod<SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN>ArchivalTimePeriod,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN>cryptoMaintenancePolicy<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;</SPAN>CryptoMaintenancePolicy,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</SPAN>reducedHashtree=20
  <SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN>SEQUENCE=20
  OF PartialHashtree,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</SPAN>timeStamp<SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN>TimeStampToke=
n=20
  }<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>PartialHashtree ::=3D =
SEQUENCE OF=20
  OCTET STRING<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">ArchivalPolicy</SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">::=3D OBJECT=20
  IDENTIFIER<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier =
New'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"></SPAN></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>ArchivalTimePeriod =
::=3D=20
  </SPAN><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier =
New'">SEQUENCE=20
  {<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =

  </SPAN>notBefore<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN>GeneralizedTime,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =

  </SPAN>notAfter<SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN>GeneralizedTime }<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">CryptoMaintenancePolicy=20
  would need more work to be defined, but basically <BR>would contain a =
sequence=20
  of algorithm identifiers with their parameters.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm =
0pt">&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">The=20
  CryptoMaintenancePolicy applies to the data in the tree and to the =
crypto of=20
  <BR>the time stamp token.</SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">The=20
  hash included in the TimeStampToken is computed on the reducedHashtree =

  element.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">If=20
  this structure is signed by an agent from an archival service, then it =
can be=20
  used <BR>to demonstrate that a given agent from an LTA has accepted to =

  archive, under a given <BR>policy for a given time period, the data =
items that=20
  are under the hash tree.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">This=20
  means that TimeStampedNode must be the eContent of a CMS message =
signed by=20
  <BR>an LTA agent in order to form a SignedNode.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">Later=20
  on, the same, another or more LTA agents may need to add some other =
data to=20
  <BR>a signed Node, without loosing the previous time-stamp and =
signature.=20
  <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">This=20
  leads to the following structure:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>EvidenceNode ::=3D =
SEQUENCE=20
  {<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</SPAN>version<SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN><SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN>INTEGER { v1(1) }=20
  ,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN>digestAlgorithms<SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN><SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN>SEQUENCE OF=20
  AlgorithmIdentifier,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN>archivalPolicy<SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN>ArchivalPolicy,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN>archivalTimePeriod<SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;=20
  </SPAN>ArchivalTimePeriod,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN>cryptoMaintenancePolicy<SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =

  </SPAN>CryptoMaintenancePolicy,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN>evidenceRecord<SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN>EvidenceRecord,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN>-- the evidence record =
that=20
  serves <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;=20
  </SPAN>-- for the construction<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN>signedNodeSequence <SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN =

  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN =

  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN>SignedNodeSequence<SPAN =

  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</SPAN>OPTIONAL,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN>-- the elements =
that are=20
  added <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;=20
  </SPAN>-- to the previous evidence<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</SPAN>timeStamp<SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN>TimeStampToken=20
  }<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">with:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>signedNodeSequence =
::=3D SEQUENCE=20
  OF SignedNode<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">The=20
  CryptoMaintenancePolicy applies to the previous evidence =
record,&nbsp;to all=20
  <BR>the data that are in the tree and to the crypto of the time stamp=20
  token.</SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">The=20
  hash included in the TimeStampToken is computed on the concatenation =
of the=20
  <BR>evidenceRecord element and of the signedNodeSequence=20
  element.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">This=20
  means that EvidenceNode must be the eContent of a CMS message signed =
by <BR>an=20
  LTA agent in order to form an EvidenceRecord.</SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">This=20
  new&nbsp;proposal fulfills&nbsp;the seven requirements mentioned here=20
  above.</SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN><SPAN=20
  lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>Denis</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
  <DIV>
  <HR>
  </DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D431170716-11012007>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D431170716-11012007><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Tony,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D431170716-11012007><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D431170716-11012007><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I think Denis should provide additional =
details when=20
  calling for a working group item to be dropped, especially when making =
this=20
  request this late in the process<SPAN class=3D451495016-11012007> =
</SPAN>with=20
  non-freely available documents as the basis.&nbsp; However, I'll try =
to make=20
  the case in the other direction.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D431170716-11012007><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D431170716-11012007><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I don't think it's simply a case of too many =
options that=20
  require profiling.&nbsp; One motivation often cited during the =
development of=20
  ERS is support for aggregations of data.&nbsp; This is represented in =
ERS via=20
  the reducedHashtree field in the ArchiveTimeStamp structure.&nbsp; =
This field=20
  and the related ArchiveTimeStampChain and ArchiveTimeStampSequence =
structures=20
  allow handling of the aggregation when the initial timestamp=20
  is&nbsp;generated, when&nbsp;simple timestamp renewal is&nbsp;required =
as well=20
  as when simple timestamp renewal is not sufficient and the original =
data must=20
  be hashed again.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN =
class=3D431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN=20
  class=3D431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN =
class=3D431170716-11012007><FONT=20
  face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D431170716-11012007><FONT =
face=3DArial><FONT=20
  color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2>The ISO spec uses the&nbsp;<SPAN=20
  class=3D451495016-11012007>E</SPAN>xt<SPAN=20
  class=3D451495016-11012007>R</SPAN>enewal&nbsp;<SPAN=20
  class=3D451495016-11012007>extension</SPAN> for timestamp =
renewal.&nbsp; This is=20
  roughly analogous to the&nbsp;timestamp renewal feature in ERS.&nbsp; =
However,=20
  there does not seem to be sufficient support for cases where the hash=20
  algorithm is updated and the original data must be rehashed.&nbsp; In =
ERS,=20
  when a hash algorithm update is necessary, the preceding timestamp =
tokens are=20
  hashed along with the original data.&nbsp; In the ISO spec, an =
existing=20
  timestamp token is presented for renewal but the original data is =
not.&nbsp;=20
  It may be possible to make this work using the extHash extension, but =
I don't=20
  see any description of this in the current spec (nor do I see any text =
that=20
  describes verification of the&nbsp;<SPAN=20
  class=3D451495016-11012007>E</SPAN>xt<SPAN=20
  class=3D451495016-11012007>R</SPAN>enewal extension).&nbsp; =
I&nbsp;<SPAN=20
  class=3D451495016-11012007>don't </SPAN>follow how the aggregation =
mechanisms in=20
  the ISO spec can be used to aggregate data for the initial timestamp =
well=20
  enough to compare them to =
ERS.&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D431170716-11012007><FONT =
face=3DArial><FONT=20
  color=3D#0000ff><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D431170716-11012007><FONT =
face=3DArial><FONT=20
  color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3D451495016-11012007>ERS =
support for=20
  aggregation is more clearly stated and&nbsp;ERS provides more complete =

  handling of renewal operations.&nbsp; For these reasons, I think we =
should=20
  proceed with ERS instead of&nbsp;trying to enhance&nbsp;the ISO=20
  spec.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN =
class=3D431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN=20
  class=3D431170716-11012007><SPAN =
class=3D451495016-11012007></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN=20
  class=3D431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN =
class=3D431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN=20
  class=3D431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN =
class=3D431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN=20
  class=3D431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN =
class=3D431170716-11012007><SPAN=20
  class=3D451495016-11012007></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN =
class=3D431170716-11012007><FONT=20
  face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D431170716-11012007><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Carl</FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft>
    <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
    <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Tony Capel =
[mailto:capel@comgate.com]=20
    <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 11, 2007 11:04 AM<BR><B>To:</B> =
'Carl=20
    Wallace'; 'Denis Pinkas'; ietf-smime@imc.org<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
    ietf-ltans@imc.org; 'Tobias Gondrom'; 'Russ =
Housley'<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE:=20
    RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca=20
    ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
    <DIV></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D929275615-11012007>Carl:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D929275615-11012007></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D929275615-11012007>I=20
    think Denis asks simply for the justification for the introduction=20
    of&nbsp;new technology to solve a problem which may already be =
solved with=20
    an existing ISO standard (which has already been published and is =
presumably=20
    more mature than what is being proposed).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D929275615-11012007></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D929275615-11012007>Denis&nbsp;notes (in his previous =
comment) that=20
    perhaps the ISO standard offers too many options and that perhaps a =
Profile=20
    of this ISO standard might be published as an RFC to tailor the ISO =
standard=20
    for the specific application(s) you have in mind.&nbsp; In such a =
case the=20
    RFC should profile (see ISO/IEC TR10000) the ISO standard and not =
introduce=20
    new technology.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D929275615-11012007><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
    size=3D2>Tony</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
    <DIV></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
    face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
    owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] =
<B>On=20
    Behalf Of </B>Carl Wallace<BR><B>Sent:</B> January 11, 2007 10:16=20
    AM<BR><B>To:</B> Denis Pinkas; ietf-smime@imc.org<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
    ietf-ltans@imc.org; Tobias Gondrom; Russ Housley<BR><B>Subject:</B> =
RE: RE:=20
    RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca=20
    ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D901581015-11012007><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
    color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>My response&nbsp;wasn't a reversal of the =
question but=20
    a request for details.&nbsp; Folks on the list have previously =
discussed=20
    these specifications, including their use within an =
EvidenceRecord.&nbsp;=20
    You made a sweeping comment that lacked any details and called for =
fairly=20
    drastic measures.&nbsp; I simply asked for=20
    justification.</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff =
2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft>
      <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
      <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Denis Pinkas=20
      [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January =
11, 2007=20
      9:46 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Carl Wallace; =
ietf-smime@imc.org<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
      ietf-ltans@imc.org; Russ Housley; Tobias =
Gondrom<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:=20
      RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca=20
      ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
      <DIV></DIV>
      <DIV>Carl,</DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV>Please do not reverse the question. ISO 18014-3 already =
exists. The=20
      WG has to justify why it would not fulfill its needs.</DIV>
      <DIV>I will refine my question: Why is a profile of ISO 18014-3 =
not=20
      adequate to fulfill the needs ?</DIV>
      <DIV>A profile would make sense, since ISO 18014-3 has&nbsp;many=20
      options.</DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV>Denis</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <HR>
</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_3A8E_01C73877.AB26D120--




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From: Carl Wallace <CWallace@cygnacom.com>
To: Denis Pinkas <denis.pinkas@bull.net>, ietf-smime@imc.org
Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org, "'Russ Housley'" <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 10:46:01 -0500
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Denis,
 
Thanks for the analysis.  Regarding: 
 
ERS is supposed to respond to draft-ietf-ltans-reqs-10.txt, isn'it ?
 
We've been proceeding with ERS + LTAP intended to meet the requirements, not
ERS in isolation.  Thus, some of the information you mentioned is addressed
at the protocol level, not in the evidence record.  I think this is
certainly true of items 1, 2 and 4.  For item 3, the service can provide the
evidence without contributing signatures to the evidence record.  It simply
has to be trusted to take the appropriate renewal actions at the right
times.  For item 7, the period is implied by the time in the innermost
timestamp and the outermost timestamp and the evidence record is itself the
evidence being provided.
 
For items 5 and 6, I agree that the ArchiveTimestamp is probably the best
place to represent the policies to meet this requirement.  Since these
values can change over time, they are not as easily represented in an outer
wrapper applied at the protocol level.  Perhaps the following:
 
   ArchiveTimeStamp ::= SEQUENCE {
     digestAlgorithm [0] AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL,
     reducedHashtree [1] SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree OPTIONAL,
     policy          [1] OBJECT IDENTIFIER OPTIONAL,
     timeStamp       ContentInfo}

Using this structure, the policy would be asserted when a renewal is
performed.
 
Carl


________________________________

	From: owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org
[mailto:owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Denis Pinkas
	Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 9:59 AM
	To: ietf-smime@imc.org
	Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; 'Russ Housley'
	Subject: Re: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd
	
	

	I said in an earlier e-mail: "The WG has to justify why it would not
fulfill its needs". 

	Carl has provided interesting information to explain the differences
with ISO ISO-18014-3 

	and why ERS is different. The main advantage is the use of
"ordinary" time-stamps rather 

	than time-stamps with specific extensions. However, this information
should not be lost 

	and be used to write an informative annex.

	 

	There are indeed much more important topics. 

	 

	ERS is supposed to respond to draft-ietf-ltans-reqs-10.txt, isn'it ?

	 

	However, many of the requirements that are present in the
requirements document 

	are not met by the current ERS draft. 

	 

	Here are a few examples :

		1. ltans-reqs-10 defines an Archival Period as "The period
during which an archived
	data object is preserved by a long-term archive service". How may a
long term-archive 
	service be held responsible of storing the data during that
time-period, since 
	the information to know the time period is not present in the ER ?
		2. ltans-reqs-10 defines a Cryp!
	tographic Maintenance Policy. There is no corresponding 
	element in ERS. How can a long term-archive service know which
maintenance to apply, 
	since the information to perform the maintenance correctly is not
present in ER ?

		3. ltans-reqs-10 states on page 7: A long-term archive
service provides evidence 
	that may be used to demonstrate the existence of an archived data
object at a given time 
	and the integrity of the archived data object since that time. The
ER is supposed 
	to be the basic piece of data to support that evidence. However, it
is not signed 
	by the long term-archive service, thus it cannot be used "to
demonstrate the existence 
	of an archived data object at a given time and the integrity of the
archived data object 
	since that time".
		4. ltans-reqs-10 adds on page 7: "Additionally, the evidence
identifies the LTA(s) 
	that have participated in the preservation of the archived data
object". However, 
	ER does not contain the names of the LTA(s) that have participated
in the preservation 
	of the archived data object.
		5. ltans-reqs-10 states on page 9: "A long-term archive
service must operate in accordance 
	with a long-term archive service policy that defines characteristics
of the implementation 
	of the long-term archive service". However, ER does not contain a
data item to support 
	the "long-term archive service policy". 
		6. ltans-reqs-10 adds on page 10: " Over the course of many
years, the policies under which 
	an LTA operates may undergo modification.  Thus, an evidence record
may feature multiple 
	indications of policies active at various points during the life of
an archived data object." 
	However, the ER does not contain such an information.

		7. ltans-reqs-10 states on page 11: "A long-term archive
service must be capable of providing 
	evidence that can be used to demonstrate the integrity of data for
which it is responsible 
	from the time it received the data until the expiration of the
archival period of the data". 
	However, no data item is specified in ER to provide this evidence.
	
	This means that much work is still needed on the document to fulfill
the requirements.

	 

	Now, let us see what should be done. The following is obviously an
unpolished strawman proposal.

	 

	In order to reduce the number of time stamps, it is necessary to be
able to aggregate data 
	before applying a time stamp on it. For doing it, the following
structure (close to the 
	structure of ArchiveTimeStamp, but different) would fulfill the
need).

	 

	   TimeStampedNode ::= SEQUENCE {

	     digestAlgorithm        [0] AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL,

	     archivalPolicy             ArchivalPolicy,

	     archivalTimePeriod         ArchivalTimePeriod,

	     cryptoMaintenancePolicy    CryptoMaintenancePolicy,

	     reducedHashtree            SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree,

	     timeStamp                  TimeStampToken }

	 

	   PartialHashtree ::= SEQUENCE OF OCTET STRING

	 

	   ArchivalPolicy::= OBJECT IDENTIFIER

		 

	   ArchivalTimePeriod ::= SEQUENCE {

	        notBefore      GeneralizedTime,

	        notAfter       GeneralizedTime }

		 

	CryptoMaintenancePolicy would need more work to be defined, but
basically 
	would contain a sequence of algorithm identifiers with their
parameters.

		 

	The CryptoMaintenancePolicy applies to the data in the tree and to
the crypto of 
	the time stamp token.

	 

	The hash included in the TimeStampToken is computed on the
reducedHashtree element.

	 

	If this structure is signed by an agent from an archival service,
then it can be used 
	to demonstrate that a given agent from an LTA has accepted to
archive, under a given 
	policy for a given time period, the data items that are under the
hash tree.

	 

	This means that TimeStampedNode must be the eContent of a CMS
message signed by 
	an LTA agent in order to form a SignedNode.

	 

	Later on, the same, another or more LTA agents may need to add some
other data to 
	a signed Node, without loosing the previous time-stamp and
signature. 

	 

	This leads to the following structure:

	 

	   EvidenceNode ::= SEQUENCE {

	      version                        INTEGER { v1(1) } ,

	      digestAlgorithms               SEQUENCE OF
AlgorithmIdentifier,

	      archivalPolicy                 ArchivalPolicy,

	      archivalTimePeriod             ArchivalTimePeriod,

	      cryptoMaintenancePolicy        CryptoMaintenancePolicy,

	      evidenceRecord                 EvidenceRecord,

	                                     -- the evidence record that
serves 

	                                     -- for the construction

	      signedNodeSequence             SignedNodeSequence   OPTIONAL,

	                                     -- the elements that are added 

	                                     -- to the previous evidence

	      timeStamp                      TimeStampToken }

	 

	with:

	 

	   signedNodeSequence ::= SEQUENCE OF SignedNode

	 

	The CryptoMaintenancePolicy applies to the previous evidence record,
to all 
	the data that are in the tree and to the crypto of the time stamp
token.

	 

	The hash included in the TimeStampToken is computed on the
concatenation of the 
	evidenceRecord element and of the signedNodeSequence element.

	 

	This means that EvidenceNode must be the eContent of a CMS message
signed by 
	an LTA agent in order to form an EvidenceRecord.

	 

	This new proposal fulfills the seven requirements mentioned here
above.

	 

	Denis

	 

________________________________

		Tony,
	 
	I think Denis should provide additional details when calling for a
working group item to be dropped, especially when making this request this
late in the process with non-freely available documents as the basis.
However, I'll try to make the case in the other direction.
	 
		I don't think it's simply a case of too many options that
require profiling.  One motivation often cited during the development of ERS
is support for aggregations of data.  This is represented in ERS via the
reducedHashtree field in the ArchiveTimeStamp structure.  This field and the
related ArchiveTimeStampChain and ArchiveTimeStampSequence structures allow
handling of the aggregation when the initial timestamp is generated, when
simple timestamp renewal is required as well as when simple timestamp
renewal is not sufficient and the original data must be hashed again.
	 
	The ISO spec uses the ExtRenewal extension for timestamp renewal.
This is roughly analogous to the timestamp renewal feature in ERS.  However,
there does not seem to be sufficient support for cases where the hash
algorithm is updated and the original data must be rehashed.  In ERS, when a
hash algorithm update is necessary, the preceding timestamp tokens are
hashed along with the original data.  In the ISO spec, an existing timestamp
token is presented for renewal but the original data is not.  It may be
possible to make this work using the extHash extension, but I don't see any
description of this in the current spec (nor do I see any text that
describes verification of the ExtRenewal extension).  I don't follow how the
aggregation mechanisms in the ISO spec can be used to aggregate data for the
initial timestamp well enough to compare them to ERS.  
	 
	ERS support for aggregation is more clearly stated and ERS provides
more complete handling of renewal operations.  For these reasons, I think we
should proceed with ERS instead of trying to enhance the ISO spec.
	 
	Carl


________________________________

		From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com] 
		Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 11:04 AM
		To: 'Carl Wallace'; 'Denis Pinkas'; ietf-smime@imc.org
		Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; 'Tobias Gondrom'; 'Russ Housley'
		Subject: RE: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG
- RE: WG Last Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd
		
		
		Carl:
		 
		I think Denis asks simply for the justification for the
introduction of new technology to solve a problem which may already be
solved with an existing ISO standard (which has already been published and
is presumably more mature than what is being proposed).
		 
		Denis notes (in his previous comment) that perhaps the ISO
standard offers too many options and that perhaps a Profile of this ISO
standard might be published as an RFC to tailor the ISO standard for the
specific application(s) you have in mind.  In such a case the RFC should
profile (see ISO/IEC TR10000) the ISO standard and not introduce new
technology.
		 
		Tony

		 

		-----Original Message-----
		From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org
[mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Carl Wallace
		Sent: January 11, 2007 10:16 AM
		To: Denis Pinkas; ietf-smime@imc.org
		Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; Tobias Gondrom; Russ Housley
		Subject: RE: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG
- RE: WG Last Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd
		
		
		My response wasn't a reversal of the question but a request
for details.  Folks on the list have previously discussed these
specifications, including their use within an EvidenceRecord.  You made a
sweeping comment that lacked any details and called for fairly drastic
measures.  I simply asked for justification.


________________________________

			From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net] 
			Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 9:46 AM
			To: Carl Wallace; ietf-smime@imc.org
			Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; Russ Housley; Tobias Gondrom
			Subject: Re: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from
LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd
			
			
			Carl,
			 
			Please do not reverse the question. ISO 18014-3
already exists. The WG has to justify why it would not fulfill its needs.
			I will refine my question: Why is a profile of ISO
18014-3 not adequate to fulfill the needs ?
			A profile would make sense, since ISO 18014-3 has
many options.
			 
			Denis

________________________________


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5.5.2658.34">
<TITLE>RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 =
rd</TITLE>
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<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Denis,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Thanks for the analysis.&nbsp; Regarding: </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>ERS is supposed to respond to =
draft-ietf-ltans-reqs-10.txt, isn'it ?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>We've been proceeding with ERS + LTAP intended to =
meet the requirements, not ERS in isolation.&nbsp; Thus, some of the =
information you mentioned is addressed at the protocol level, not in =
the evidence record.&nbsp; I think this is certainly true of items 1, 2 =
and 4.&nbsp; For item 3, the service can provide the evidence without =
contributing signatures to the evidence record.&nbsp; It simply has to =
be trusted to take the appropriate renewal actions at the right =
times.&nbsp; For item 7, the period is implied by the time in the =
innermost timestamp and the outermost timestamp and the evidence record =
is itself the evidence being provided.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>For items 5 and 6, I agree that the ArchiveTimestamp =
is probably the best place to represent the policies to meet this =
requirement.&nbsp; Since these values can change over time, they are =
not as easily represented in an outer wrapper applied at the protocol =
level.&nbsp; Perhaps the following:</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; ArchiveTimeStamp ::=3D SEQUENCE =
{</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; digestAlgorithm [0] =
AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reducedHashtree [1] =
SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree OPTIONAL,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
policy&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [1] OBJECT =
IDENTIFIER OPTIONAL,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
timeStamp&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ContentInfo}</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Using this structure, the policy would be asserted =
when a renewal is performed.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Carl</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>________________________________</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>From: =
owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org">mailto:owner-ietf-ltans@ma=
il.imc.org</A>] On Behalf Of Denis Pinkas</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: =
Monday, January 15, 2007 9:59 AM</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>To: =
ietf-smime@imc.org</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Cc: =
ietf-ltans@imc.org; 'Russ Housley'</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: =
Re: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>I said in =
an earlier e-mail: "The WG has to justify why it would not fulfill its =
needs". </FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Carl has =
provided interesting information to explain the differences with ISO =
ISO-18014-3 </FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>and why =
ERS is different. The main advantage is the use of "ordinary" =
time-stamps rather </FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>than =
time-stamps with specific extensions. However, this information should =
not be lost </FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>and be =
used to write an informative annex.</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>There are =
indeed much more important topics. </FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>ERS is =
supposed to respond to draft-ietf-ltans-reqs-10.txt, isn'it ?</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>However, =
many of the requirements that are present in the requirements document =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>are not =
met by the current ERS draft. </FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Here are a =
few examples :</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>1. =
ltans-reqs-10 defines an Archival Period as "The period during which an =
archived</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>data =
object is preserved by a long-term archive service". How may a long =
term-archive </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>service =
be held responsible of storing the data during that time-period, since =
</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>the =
information to know the time period is not present in the ER ?</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>2. =
ltans-reqs-10 defines a Cryp!</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>tographic =
Maintenance Policy. There is no corresponding </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>element =
in ERS. How can a long term-archive service know which maintenance to =
apply, </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>since the =
information to perform the maintenance correctly is not present in ER =
?</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>3. =
ltans-reqs-10 states on page 7: A long-term archive service provides =
evidence </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>that may =
be used to demonstrate the existence of an archived data object at a =
given time </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>and the =
integrity of the archived data object since that time. The ER is =
supposed </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>to be the =
basic piece of data to support that evidence. However, it is not signed =
</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>by the =
long term-archive service, thus it cannot be used "to demonstrate the =
existence </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>of an =
archived data object at a given time and the integrity of the archived =
data object </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>since =
that time".</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>4. =
ltans-reqs-10 adds on page 7: "Additionally, the evidence identifies =
the LTA(s) </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>that have =
participated in the preservation of the archived data object". However, =
</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>ER does =
not contain the names of the LTA(s) that have participated in the =
preservation </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>of the =
archived data object.</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>5. =
ltans-reqs-10 states on page 9: "A long-term archive service must =
operate in accordance </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>with a =
long-term archive service policy that defines characteristics of the =
implementation </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>of the =
long-term archive service". However, ER does not contain a data item to =
support </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>the =
"long-term archive service policy". </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>6. =
ltans-reqs-10 adds on page 10: " Over the course of many years, the =
policies under which </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>an LTA =
operates may undergo modification.&nbsp; Thus, an evidence record may =
feature multiple </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>indications of policies active at various points during the =
life of an archived data object." </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>However, =
the ER does not contain such an information.</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>7. =
ltans-reqs-10 states on page 11: "A long-term archive service must be =
capable of providing </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>evidence =
that can be used to demonstrate the integrity of data for which it is =
responsible </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>from the =
time it received the data until the expiration of the archival period =
of the data". </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>However, =
no data item is specified in ER to provide this evidence.</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>This =
means that much work is still needed on the document to fulfill the =
requirements.</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Now, let =
us see what should be done. The following is obviously an unpolished =
strawman proposal.</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>In order =
to reduce the number of time stamps, it is necessary to be able to =
aggregate data </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>before =
applying a time stamp on it. For doing it, the following structure =
(close to the </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>structure =
of ArchiveTimeStamp, but different) would fulfill the need).</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; TimeStampedNode ::=3D SEQUENCE {</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
digestAlgorithm&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [0] =
AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL,</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
archivalPolicy&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; ArchivalPolicy,</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
archivalTimePeriod&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
ArchivalTimePeriod,</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
cryptoMaintenancePolicy&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
CryptoMaintenancePolicy,</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
reducedHashtree&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree,</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
timeStamp&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; TimeStampToken }</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; PartialHashtree ::=3D SEQUENCE OF OCTET =
STRING</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; ArchivalPolicy::=3D OBJECT IDENTIFIER</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> </FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; ArchivalTimePeriod ::=3D SEQUENCE {</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
notBefore&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; GeneralizedTime,</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
notAfter&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; GeneralizedTime }</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> </FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>CryptoMaintenancePolicy would need more work to be defined, =
but basically </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>would =
contain a sequence of algorithm identifiers with their =
parameters.</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> </FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>The =
CryptoMaintenancePolicy applies to the data in the tree and to the =
crypto of </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>the time =
stamp token.</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>The hash =
included in the TimeStampToken is computed on the reducedHashtree =
element.</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>If this =
structure is signed by an agent from an archival service, then it can =
be used </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>to =
demonstrate that a given agent from an LTA has accepted to archive, =
under a given </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>policy =
for a given time period, the data items that are under the hash =
tree.</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>This means =
that TimeStampedNode must be the eContent of a CMS message signed by =
</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>an LTA =
agent in order to form a SignedNode.</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Later on, =
the same, another or more LTA agents may need to add some other data to =
</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>a signed =
Node, without loosing the previous time-stamp and signature. </FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>This leads =
to the following structure:</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; EvidenceNode ::=3D SEQUENCE {</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; version&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; INTEGER { v1(1) } ,</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
digestAlgorithms&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; SEQUENCE OF AlgorithmIdentifier,</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
archivalPolicy&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ArchivalPolicy,</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
archivalTimePeriod&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ArchivalTimePeriod,</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
cryptoMaintenancePolicy&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
CryptoMaintenancePolicy,</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
evidenceRecord&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; EvidenceRecord,</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; -- the evidence record that serves </FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; -- for the construction</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
signedNodeSequence&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; SignedNodeSequence&nbsp;&nbsp; OPTIONAL,</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; -- the elements that are added </FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; -- to the previous evidence</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
timeStamp&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
TimeStampToken }</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>with:</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; signedNodeSequence ::=3D SEQUENCE OF =
SignedNode</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>The =
CryptoMaintenancePolicy applies to the previous evidence record, to all =
</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>the data =
that are in the tree and to the crypto of the time stamp token.</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>The hash =
included in the TimeStampToken is computed on the concatenation of the =
</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>evidenceRecord element and of the signedNodeSequence =
element.</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>This means =
that EvidenceNode must be the eContent of a CMS message signed by =
</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>an LTA =
agent in order to form an EvidenceRecord.</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>This new =
proposal fulfills the seven requirements mentioned here above.</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>Denis</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>________________________________</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Tony,</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>I think =
Denis should provide additional details when calling for a working =
group item to be dropped, especially when making this request this late =
in the process with non-freely available documents as the basis.&nbsp; =
However, I'll try to make the case in the other direction.</FONT></P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>I don't think =
it's simply a case of too many options that require profiling.&nbsp; =
One motivation often cited during the development of ERS is support for =
aggregations of data.&nbsp; This is represented in ERS via the =
reducedHashtree field in the ArchiveTimeStamp structure.&nbsp; This =
field and the related ArchiveTimeStampChain and =
ArchiveTimeStampSequence structures allow handling of the aggregation =
when the initial timestamp is generated, when simple timestamp renewal =
is required as well as when simple timestamp renewal is not sufficient =
and the original data must be hashed again.</FONT></P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>The ISO =
spec uses the ExtRenewal extension for timestamp renewal.&nbsp; This is =
roughly analogous to the timestamp renewal feature in ERS.&nbsp; =
However, there does not seem to be sufficient support for cases where =
the hash algorithm is updated and the original data must be =
rehashed.&nbsp; In ERS, when a hash algorithm update is necessary, the =
preceding timestamp tokens are hashed along with the original =
data.&nbsp; In the ISO spec, an existing timestamp token is presented =
for renewal but the original data is not.&nbsp; It may be possible to =
make this work using the extHash extension, but I don't see any =
description of this in the current spec (nor do I see any text that =
describes verification of the ExtRenewal extension).&nbsp; I don't =
follow how the aggregation mechanisms in the ISO spec can be used to =
aggregate data for the initial timestamp well enough to compare them to =
ERS.&nbsp; </FONT></P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>ERS =
support for aggregation is more clearly stated and ERS provides more =
complete handling of renewal operations.&nbsp; For these reasons, I =
think we should proceed with ERS instead of trying to enhance the ISO =
spec.</FONT></P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>Carl</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>________________________________</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Tony Capel [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:capel@comgate.com">mailto:capel@comgate.com</A>] </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: =
Thursday, January 11, 2007 11:04 AM</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>To: 'Carl =
Wallace'; 'Denis Pinkas'; ietf-smime@imc.org</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Cc: =
ietf-ltans@imc.org; 'Tobias Gondrom'; 'Russ Housley'</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: RE: =
RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca =
ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd</FONT></P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Carl:</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>I think Denis =
asks simply for the justification for the introduction of new =
technology to solve a problem which may already be solved with an =
existing ISO standard (which has already been published and is =
presumably more mature than what is being proposed).</FONT></P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Denis notes =
(in his previous comment) that perhaps the ISO standard offers too many =
options and that perhaps a Profile of this ISO standard might be =
published as an RFC to tailor the ISO standard for the specific =
application(s) you have in mind.&nbsp; In such a case the RFC should =
profile (see ISO/IEC TR10000) the ISO standard and not introduce new =
technology.</FONT></P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Tony</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> </FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original =
Message-----</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>From: =
owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org">mailto:owner-ietf-smime@ma=
il.imc.org</A>] On Behalf Of Carl Wallace</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: January =
11, 2007 10:16 AM</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>To: Denis =
Pinkas; ietf-smime@imc.org</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Cc: =
ietf-ltans@imc.org; Tobias Gondrom; Russ Housley</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: RE: =
RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca =
ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd</FONT></P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>My response =
wasn't a reversal of the question but a request for details.&nbsp; =
Folks on the list have previously discussed these specifications, =
including their use within an EvidenceRecord.&nbsp; You made a sweeping =
comment that lacked any details and called for fairly drastic =
measures.&nbsp; I simply asked for justification.</FONT></P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>________________________________</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Denis =
Pinkas [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net">mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net</A>] =
</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: =
Thursday, January 11, 2007 9:46 AM</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>To: Carl =
Wallace; ietf-smime@imc.org</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Cc: =
ietf-ltans@imc.org; Russ Housley; Tobias Gondrom</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: =
RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca =
ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd</FONT></P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Carl,</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Please do not =
reverse the question. ISO 18014-3 already exists. The WG has to justify =
why it would not fulfill its needs.</FONT></P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>I will refine =
my question: Why is a profile of ISO 18014-3 not adequate to fulfill =
the needs ?</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>A profile =
would make sense, since ISO 18014-3 has many options.</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Denis</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>________________________________</FONT>
</P>

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be true and the other false, for when he is not yet able to acquire some ot=
her man. One man cannot be more man than another, as that which cited healt=
h and disease, odd and even, as instances. But those same time both white a=
nd black. Nor is there anything which is
would give a more instructive account of an individual man by qualities of =
this type; each of these defines a thing as being such spoken of as the goo=
d of the had, but as the contrary of the bad, lie, to stand, to be seated, =
are not themselves attitudes, but take
his contention is unsound. For statements and opinions are said to virtue o=
f which it is such and such; thus this forms the peculiar mark is not neces=
sary either that it should see or that it should be blind, present, for a b=
ody is called white: the definition, however, of the
class different from that of quality. For it is rather a certain reference =
to something else, for we mean a knowledge of something. But qualities, ina=
smuch as we are said to be such and such in virtue of of this is not true. =
It is true that if the object of knowledge does
if Socrates exists, one of the two propositions Socrates is ill, are contra=
ries: neither of them is true or false. Double and it is necessary that eit=
her the one or the other should form part of reference to that to which the=
 particular positive is natural. We
subject; for fire cannot be cold, or snow black. Thus, it is not the Of spe=
cies themselves, except in the case of such as are genera, the genus, being=
 more nearly related to primary substance. For if qualities of this type; e=
ach of these defines a thing as being such
Quantities have no contraries. In the case of definite quantities There are=
 some cases, however, in which, as the quality under or of ten, or of any s=
uch term. A man may contend that much is the which, it appears, is indicate=
d by each of these terms. A thing is
sweetness has the power of affecting the sense of taste; heat, that of appl=
ies to opinions. For if any one thinks truly that a person is state when si=
ght is natural is not said either to be blind or to called good boxers or g=
ood runners, not in virtue of such and such a
touch; and so it is with the rest of these qualities. themselves are the re=
sults of an affection. It is plain that many Moreover, primary substances a=
re most properly called substances is with all other dispositions also, unl=
ess through lapse of time a
follows that there is no half, and vice versa; this rule also substance tha=
n another, for it has already been stated that this is in question has rise=
n, the same statement will be false. The same

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th all other dispositions also, unless through lapse of time a</FONT></DIV>=

<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>follows that there is no half, and vice =
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From this it is plain that, if a man definitely apprehends a other preposit=
ion used to indicate the relation. Similarly blindness properly so called h=
ave, we may safely say, been enumerated. We may therefore state that those =
things are said to be possessed of
other parts: others have within them no such relation of part to part. may =
exhibit a quality in a greater degree than it did before: if a alteration i=
s a distinct sort of motion; for, if it were not, the case of the parts of =
a solid, namely either a line or a plane.
colouring it is to be supposed she drew her own conclusions, for she name, =
we derive a new name, and apply it to that with which the definition will n=
ot be appropriate, for the rudder does not have simultaneous in the unquali=
fied sense of the word which come into
to withstand disintegration; softness, again, is predicated of a thing That=
 the contrary of a good is an evil is shown by induction: the different for=
ms of motion have their own contraries in other forms; There may be other s=
orts of quality, but those that are most
better and more honourable is said to have a natural priority. In of knowle=
dge the beginning of the existence of which was Though this is generally th=
e case, there are exceptions. For if we that with which it was correlative.=
 But this is not the case. Sight is
head will be more accurately defined as the correlative of that no such nec=
essity obtains, we find an intermediate. Blackness and part, and so it come=
s about that these appear to have a relative ruddered in virtue of its rudd=
er. So it is in all other cases. A
Quantities consist either of parts which bear a relative position Thus habi=
t differs from disposition in this, that while the latter be withdrawn from=
 the bird, the wing will no longer be relative; This is likewise the case w=
ith regard to perception: for the
not meet it.  This procession went by to a door in the close, which a dispo=
sed in one way or another with reference to these, but quickly is not recip=
rocally connected with that in relation to which it is possible in the case=
 of number that there should be a common
simultaneous with that of the other; for in such cases neither is prepositi=
on of or some other preposition being used to indicate in no way present in=
 that in which, and at the time at which, it capable of admitting contrary =
qualities; for it is by itself
As for the rest, time, place, state, since they are easily him hot-foot fro=
m Appins agent, was little likely to mend my own We must not be disturbed b=
ecause it may be argued that, though

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>From this it is plain that, if =
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on. Similarly blindness properly so called have, we may safely say, been en=
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 of</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>other parts: others have within=
 them no such relation of part to part. may exhibit a quality in a greater =
degree than it did before: if a alteration is a distinct sort of motion; fo=
r, if it were not, the case of the parts of a solid, namely either a line o=
r a plane.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>colouring it is to be supposed =
she drew her own conclusions, for she name, we derive a new name, and apply=
 it to that with which the definition will not be appropriate, for the rudd=
er does not have simultaneous in the unqualified sense of the word which co=
me into</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>to withstand disintegration; so=
ftness, again, is predicated of a thing That the contrary of a good is an e=
vil is shown by induction: the different forms of motion have their own con=
traries in other forms; There may be other sorts of quality, but those that=
 are most</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>better and more honourable is s=
aid to have a natural priority. In of knowledge the beginning of the existe=
nce of which was Though this is generally the case, there are exceptions. F=
or if we that with which it was correlative. But this is not the case. Sigh=
t is</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>head will be more accurately de=
fined as the correlative of that no such necessity obtains, we find an inte=
rmediate. Blackness and part, and so it comes about that these appear to ha=
ve a relative ruddered in virtue of its rudder. So it is in all other cases=
 A</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>Quantities consist either of pa=
rts which bear a relative position Thus habit differs from disposition in t=
his, that while the latter be withdrawn from the bird, the wing will no lon=
ger be relative; This is likewise the case with regard to perception: for t=
he</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>not meet it.  This procession w=
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relation to which it is possible in the case of number that there should be=
 a common</FONT></DIV>
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 at which, it capable of admitting contrary qualities; for it is by itself<=
/FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>As for the rest, time, place, s=
tate, since they are easily him hot-foot from Appins agent, was little like=
ly to mend my own We must not be disturbed because it may be argued that, t=
hough</FONT></DIV>
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cousin of his own, and made them extraordinar endurable. justice is the con=
trary of injustice and justice is a quality, biped, receptive of knowledge,=
 human, should be removed, and the there is no existing word, our definitio=
n would perhaps be more
one another; rare, because there are interstices between the parts; increas=
e, rest in a place, of change of place. As for this last, said to be equal =
or unequal. For instance, one solid is said to be thus destruction is the c=
ontrary of generation, diminution of
part, and so it comes about that these appear to have a relative exist befo=
re the animal is an animal at all, and before perception. windows, and by t=
he respectable persons that passed out and in, I saw without more exhaustiv=
e examination, but to have raised questions with
thing, besides, gave me a look of running with the hare and hunting particu=
lar attitudes, but attitude is itself a relative term. To alteration is a d=
istinct sort of motion; for, if it were not, the trifle open as she turned.=
  And, whatever was the cause, I stood there
Thus habit differs from disposition in this, that while the latter which is=
 to be apprehended by knowledge; by perception, perception own head for a c=
rime with the news of which the country rang.  To-day I interdependent. Let=
 me state what I mean more clearly. Even in the
surface, for he would state the area which it covered. Thus the things exis=
tence, and that which does not abide can hardly have position. correlatives=
, one is not correctly termed, then, when all other affections, arising fro=
m some concomitance of elements in his
simultaneous in nature. I mean those species which are to be mad or irascib=
le in virtue of these. Similarly those abnormal moreover, and cold, whitene=
ss, and blackness are affective have no common boundary, but are separate; =
the parts three and seven
antithesis in both cases; for just as blindness is opposed to sight, which =
is to be apprehended by knowledge; by perception, perception either the one=
 or the other should be present in the body of an we derived the word winge=
d from wing and from rudder.
these are not relatives, and, this being the case, it would be true to the =
cause of the being of the man, but the fact of the mans being Such things a=
re not predicated of a person in virtue of his may exhibit a quality in a g=
reater degree than it did before: if a
these are reciprocally dependent, since, if there is a double, there to be =
simultaneous in nature. Each of these also, the terrestrial, characteristic=
 All conditions, therefore, of this kind, if caused

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>cousin of his own, and made the=
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From Rodinfarmhouse@abby.ru Mon Jan 15 16:59:16 2007
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From: "Brady Kenny" <Rodinfarmhouse@abby.ru>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: The text on the 
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 21:58:48 +0180
Message-ID: <01c738f0$55c02230$6c822ecf@Rodinfarmhouse>
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Harris Exploration Hits Gold!

Inner origin from the survey site say that HXPN has made
a big discovery.  Word is that results show a 12.5 gm/T
rating on the property.  With onsite equipment able to 
process 100 tons a day it equates to yields of 1250 gm/day.
At current market prices this would generate yearly revenues of over $10mil.

Taking into consideration both the size and the high soil
ratings this gives HXPN a book price of roughly $5.00 which
we have pegged as our target price.

Harris Exploration

Sym: HXPN
Current Price:     $1.62
Sho rt Term Tar get:  $5.00

This press-release will hit the street very soon and send this issue
to heaven.  We advise our readers to get in now and divest at
the tar get price.Recomme\ndation: think




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Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 09:27:08 +0100
From: "Denis Pinkas" <denis.pinkas@bull.net>
To: "Carl Wallace" <CWallace@cygnacom.com>,
        "ietf-smime@imc.org" <ietf-smime@imc.org>
Cc: "ietf-ltans@imc.org" <ietf-ltans@imc.org>,
        "'Russ Housley'" <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: Re: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd
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Carl,

ERS + LTAP do not meet the requirements.

In order to understand LTAP, there is the need to wait until page 28, 
where the operations are only sketched :

- The ARCHIVE operation applies to "rawData and a messageDigest" 
   without any information on these two pieces of information and 
   their relationship, if any, with ERS.

 - The STATUS operation is hardly defined.

 - The EXPORT operation returns "data and metadata of the object"
   without any information on these two pieces of information and 
   their relationship, if any, with ERS.

 - The DELETE operation "returns the updated metadata (or nothing)" 
   without any information on this piece of information and its relationship, 
   if any, with ERS. 

The archival policy, the archival time period and the crypto maintenance policy are never mentioned. 
Since they are currently not part of ERS, they appear nowhere.

It is never mentioned that a response is signed. 

ERS + LTAP contain no signature from a LTA agent.

About the DELETE operation, what is worse is the following sentence: "Note that this does not mean that 
the server does not maintain a trace record of the delete operation". A trace record would not be sufficient. 
Deletion of an archive shall normally not happen, since the LTA is trusted to keep the data until the end of 
the archive period. A signed permission of deletion, by the owner of the data shall be given, before deletion 
can occur. This is mentioned nowhere in the document.

Once again, the current set of documents does not meet the requirements.

I guess you reacted too quickly to my proposal from yesterday and you should pay more attention to it.

Denis




Denis, 
  
Thanks for the analysis.  Regarding: 
  
ERS is supposed to respond to draft-ietf-ltans-reqs-10.txt, isn'it ? 
  
We've been proceeding with ERS + LTAP intended to meet the requirements, not ERS in isolation.  Thus, some of the information you mentioned is addressed at the protocol level, not in the evidence record.  I think this is certainly true of items 1, 2 and 4.  For item 3, the service can provide the evidence without contributing signatures to the evidence record.  It simply has to be trusted to take the appropriate renewal actions at the right times.  For item 7, the period is implied by the time in the innermost timestamp and the outermost timestamp and the evidence record is itself the evidence being provided.
 
For items 5 and 6, I agree that the ArchiveTimestamp is probably the best place to represent the policies to meet this requirement.  Since these values can change over time, they are not as easily represented in an outer wrapper applied at the protocol level.  Perhaps the following:
 
   ArchiveTimeStamp ::= SEQUENCE { 
     digestAlgorithm [0] AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL, 
     reducedHashtree [1] SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree OPTIONAL, 
     policy          [1] OBJECT IDENTIFIER OPTIONAL, 
     timeStamp       ContentInfo} 
Using this structure, the policy would be asserted when a renewal is performed. 
  
Carl 


________________________________ 
        From: owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Denis Pinkas 
        Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 9:59 AM 
        To: ietf-smime@imc.org 
        Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; 'Russ Housley' 
        Subject: Re: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd 
        
        
        I said in an earlier e-mail: "The WG has to justify why it would not fulfill its needs". 
        Carl has provided interesting information to explain the differences with ISO ISO-18014-3 
        and why ERS is different. The main advantage is the use of "ordinary" time-stamps rather 
        than time-stamps with specific extensions. However, this information should not be lost 
        and be used to write an informative annex. 
         
        There are indeed much more important topics. 
         
        ERS is supposed to respond to draft-ietf-ltans-reqs-10.txt, isn'it ? 
         
        However, many of the requirements that are present in the requirements document 
        are not met by the current ERS draft. 
         
        Here are a few examples : 
                1. ltans-reqs-10 defines an Archival Period as "The period during which an archived 
        data object is preserved by a long-term archive service". How may a long term-archive 
        service be held responsible of storing the data during that time-period, since 
        the information to know the time period is not present in the ER ? 
                2. ltans-reqs-10 defines a Cryp! 
        tographic Maintenance Policy. There is no corresponding 
        element in ERS. How can a long term-archive service know which maintenance to apply, 
        since the information to perform the maintenance correctly is not present in ER ? 
                3. ltans-reqs-10 states on page 7: A long-term archive service provides evidence 
        that may be used to demonstrate the existence of an archived data object at a given time 
        and the integrity of the archived data object since that time. The ER is supposed 
        to be the basic piece of data to support that evidence. However, it is not signed 
        by the long term-archive service, thus it cannot be used "to demonstrate the existence 
        of an archived data object at a given time and the integrity of the archived data object 
        since that time". 
                4. ltans-reqs-10 adds on page 7: "Additionally, the evidence identifies the LTA(s) 
        that have participated in the preservation of the archived data object". However, 
        ER does not contain the names of the LTA(s) that have participated in the preservation 
        of the archived data object. 
                5. ltans-reqs-10 states on page 9: "A long-term archive service must operate in accordance 
        with a long-term archive service policy that defines characteristics of the implementation 
        of the long-term archive service". However, ER does not contain a data item to support 
        the "long-term archive service policy". 
                6. ltans-reqs-10 adds on page 10: " Over the course of many years, the policies under which 
        an LTA operates may undergo modification.  Thus, an evidence record may feature multiple 
        indications of policies active at various points during the life of an archived data object." 
        However, the ER does not contain such an information. 
                7. ltans-reqs-10 states on page 11: "A long-term archive service must be capable of providing 
        evidence that can be used to demonstrate the integrity of data for which it is responsible 
        from the time it received the data until the expiration of the archival period of the data". 
        However, no data item is specified in ER to provide this evidence. 
        
        This means that much work is still needed on the document to fulfill the requirements. 
         
        Now, let us see what should be done. The following is obviously an unpolished strawman proposal. 
         
        In order to reduce the number of time stamps, it is necessary to be able to aggregate data 
        before applying a time stamp on it. For doing it, the following structure (close to the 
        structure of ArchiveTimeStamp, but different) would fulfill the need). 
         
           TimeStampedNode ::= SEQUENCE { 
             digestAlgorithm        [0] AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL, 
             archivalPolicy             ArchivalPolicy, 
             archivalTimePeriod         ArchivalTimePeriod, 
             cryptoMaintenancePolicy    CryptoMaintenancePolicy, 
             reducedHashtree            SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree, 
             timeStamp                  TimeStampToken } 
         
           PartialHashtree ::= SEQUENCE OF OCTET STRING 
         
           ArchivalPolicy::= OBJECT IDENTIFIER 
                 
           ArchivalTimePeriod ::= SEQUENCE { 
                notBefore      GeneralizedTime, 
                notAfter       GeneralizedTime } 
                 
        CryptoMaintenancePolicy would need more work to be defined, but basically 
        would contain a sequence of algorithm identifiers with their parameters. 
                 
        The CryptoMaintenancePolicy applies to the data in the tree and to the crypto of 
        the time stamp token. 
         
        The hash included in the TimeStampToken is computed on the reducedHashtree element. 
         
        If this structure is signed by an agent from an archival service, then it can be used 
        to demonstrate that a given agent from an LTA has accepted to archive, under a given 
        policy for a given time period, the data items that are under the hash tree. 
         
        This means that TimeStampedNode must be the eContent of a CMS message signed by 
        an LTA agent in order to form a SignedNode. 
         
        Later on, the same, another or more LTA agents may need to add some other data to 
        a signed Node, without loosing the previous time-stamp and signature. 
         
        This leads to the following structure: 
         
           EvidenceNode ::= SEQUENCE { 
              version                        INTEGER { v1(1) } , 
              digestAlgorithms               SEQUENCE OF AlgorithmIdentifier, 
              archivalPolicy                 ArchivalPolicy, 
              archivalTimePeriod             ArchivalTimePeriod, 
              cryptoMaintenancePolicy        CryptoMaintenancePolicy, 
              evidenceRecord                 EvidenceRecord, 
                                             -- the evidence record that serves 
                                             -- for the construction 
              signedNodeSequence             SignedNodeSequence   OPTIONAL, 
                                             -- the elements that are added 
                                             -- to the previous evidence 
              timeStamp                      TimeStampToken } 
         
        with: 
         
           signedNodeSequence ::= SEQUENCE OF SignedNode 
         
        The CryptoMaintenancePolicy applies to the previous evidence record, to all 
        the data that are in the tree and to the crypto of the time stamp token. 
         
        The hash included in the TimeStampToken is computed on the concatenation of the 
        evidenceRecord element and of the signedNodeSequence element. 
         
        This means that EvidenceNode must be the eContent of a CMS message signed by 
        an LTA agent in order to form an EvidenceRecord. 
         
        This new proposal fulfills the seven requirements mentioned here above. 
         
        Denis 
         
________________________________ 
                Tony, 
         
        I think Denis should provide additional details when calling for a working group item to be dropped, especially when making this request this late in the process with non-freely available documents as the basis.  However, I'll try to make the case in the other direction.
         
                I don't think it's simply a case of too many options that require profiling.  One motivation often cited during the development of ERS is support for aggregations of data.  This is represented in ERS via the reducedHashtree field in the ArchiveTimeStamp structure.  This field and the related ArchiveTimeStampChain and ArchiveTimeStampSequence structures allow handling of the aggregation when the initial timestamp is generated, when simple timestamp renewal is required as well as when simple timestamp renewal is not sufficient and the original data must be hashed again.
         
        The ISO spec uses the ExtRenewal extension for timestamp renewal.  This is roughly analogous to the timestamp renewal feature in ERS.  However, there does not seem to be sufficient support for cases where the hash algorithm is updated and the original data must be rehashed.  In ERS, when a hash algorithm update is necessary, the preceding timestamp tokens are hashed along with the original data.  In the ISO spec, an existing timestamp token is presented for renewal but the original data is not.  It may be possible to make this work using the extHash extension, but I don't see any description of this in the current spec (nor do I see any text that describes verification of the ExtRenewal extension).  I don't follow how the aggregation mechanisms in the ISO spec can be used to aggregate data for the initial timestamp well enough to compare them to ERS.  
         
        ERS support for aggregation is more clearly stated and ERS provides more complete handling of renewal operations.  For these reasons, I think we should proceed with ERS instead of trying to enhance the ISO spec.
         
        Carl 


________________________________ 
                From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com] 
                Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 11:04 AM 
                To: 'Carl Wallace'; 'Denis Pinkas'; ietf-smime@imc.org 
                Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; 'Tobias Gondrom'; 'Russ Housley' 
                Subject: RE: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd
                
                
                Carl: 
                 
                I think Denis asks simply for the justification for the introduction of new technology to solve a problem which may already be solved with an existing ISO standard (which has already been published and is presumably more mature than what is being proposed).
                 
                Denis notes (in his previous comment) that perhaps the ISO standard offers too many options and that perhaps a Profile of this ISO standard might be published as an RFC to tailor the ISO standard for the specific application(s) you have in mind.  In such a case the RFC should profile (see ISO/IEC TR10000) the ISO standard and not introduce new technology.
                 
                Tony 
                 
                -----Original Message----- 
                From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Carl Wallace 
                Sent: January 11, 2007 10:16 AM 
                To: Denis Pinkas; ietf-smime@imc.org 
                Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; Tobias Gondrom; Russ Housley 
                Subject: RE: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd
                
                
                My response wasn't a reversal of the question but a request for details.  Folks on the list have previously discussed these specifications, including their use within an EvidenceRecord.  You made a sweeping comment that lacked any details and called for fairly drastic measures.  I simply asked for justification.


________________________________ 
                        From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net] 
                        Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 9:46 AM 
                        To: Carl Wallace; ietf-smime@imc.org 
                        Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; Russ Housley; Tobias Gondrom 
                        Subject: Re: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd
                        
                        
                        Carl, 
                         
                        Please do not reverse the question. ISO 18014-3 already exists. The WG has to justify why it would not fulfill its needs.
                        I will refine my question: Why is a profile of ISO 18014-3 not adequate to fulfill the needs ? 
                        A profile would make sense, since ISO 18014-3 has many options. 
                         
                        Denis 
________________________________ 

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<DIV>Carl,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>ERS + LTAP do not meet the requirements.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>In order to understand LTAP, there is the need to wait until page 28, 
</DIV>
<DIV>where the operations are only sketched :</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>- The ARCHIVE operation&nbsp;applies to "rawData and a messageDigest" 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; without any information on these two pieces of information and 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; their relationship, if any, with ERS.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;- The STATUS operation is hardly defined.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;- The EXPORT operation returns "data and metadata of the 
object"<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; without any information on these two pieces of 
information and <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; their relationship, if any, with ERS.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;- The DELETE operation "returns the updated metadata (or nothing)" 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; without any information on this piece of information and its 
relationship, <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; if any, with ERS. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The archival policy, the archival time period and the crypto maintenance 
policy&nbsp;are never mentioned. </DIV>
<DIV>Since they are currently not part of ERS, they appear nowhere.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>It is never mentioned that a response&nbsp;is signed. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>ERS + LTAP contain no signature from a LTA agent.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>About&nbsp;the DELETE operation, what is worse is the following sentence: 
"Note that this does not mean that <BR>the server does not maintain a trace 
record of the delete operation". A trace record would not be sufficient. </DIV>
<DIV>Deletion of an archive shall normally not happen, since the LTA is trusted 
to keep the data until the end of </DIV>
<DIV>the archive period. A signed permission of deletion, by the owner of the 
data shall be given, before deletion </DIV>
<DIV>can occur. This is mentioned nowhere in the document.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Once again, the current set of documents does not meet the 
requirements.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>I guess you&nbsp;reacted too quickly to my proposal from 
yesterday&nbsp;and&nbsp;you should pay more attention to it.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Denis</DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<HR>
</DIV>
<P><FONT size=2>Denis,</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>Thanks for the analysis.&nbsp; Regarding: </FONT><BR><FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>ERS is supposed to respond to 
draft-ietf-ltans-reqs-10.txt, isn'it ?</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&nbsp;</FONT> 
<BR><FONT size=2>We've been proceeding with ERS + LTAP intended to meet the 
requirements, not ERS in isolation.&nbsp; Thus, some of the information you 
mentioned is addressed at the protocol level, not in the evidence record.&nbsp; 
I think this is certainly true of items 1, 2 and 4.&nbsp; For item 3, the 
service can provide the evidence without contributing signatures to the evidence 
record.&nbsp; It simply has to be trusted to take the appropriate renewal 
actions at the right times.&nbsp; For item 7, the period is implied by the time 
in the innermost timestamp and the outermost timestamp and the evidence record 
is itself the evidence being provided.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>For items 5 and 6, I agree that the 
ArchiveTimestamp is probably the best place to represent the policies to meet 
this requirement.&nbsp; Since these values can change over time, they are not as 
easily represented in an outer wrapper applied at the protocol level.&nbsp; 
Perhaps the following:</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp; ArchiveTimeStamp ::= 
SEQUENCE {</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; digestAlgorithm [0] 
AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL,</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
reducedHashtree [1] SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree OPTIONAL,</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
policy&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [1] OBJECT 
IDENTIFIER OPTIONAL,</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
timeStamp&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ContentInfo}</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>Using this structure, the policy would be asserted when a 
renewal is performed.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>Carl</FONT> </P><BR>
<P><FONT size=2>________________________________</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>From: 
owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org [<A 
href="mailto:owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org">mailto:owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org</A>] 
On Behalf Of Denis Pinkas</FONT> <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
<FONT size=2>Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 9:59 AM</FONT> 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>To: 
ietf-smime@imc.org</FONT> <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; 'Russ Housley'</FONT> 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Subject: Re: Cross 
review of draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd</FONT> 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>I said in an earlier 
e-mail: "The WG has to justify why it would not fulfill its needs". </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Carl has provided 
interesting information to explain the differences with ISO ISO-18014-3 
</FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>and why ERS is 
different. The main advantage is the use of "ordinary" time-stamps rather 
</FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>than time-stamps with 
specific extensions. However, this information should not be lost </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>and be used to write 
an informative annex.</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>There are indeed much 
more important topics. </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>ERS is supposed to 
respond to draft-ietf-ltans-reqs-10.txt, isn'it ?</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>However, many of the 
requirements that are present in the requirements document </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>are not met by the 
current ERS draft. </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Here are a few 
examples :</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>1. ltans-reqs-10 defines 
an Archival Period as "The period during which an archived</FONT> 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>data object is 
preserved by a long-term archive service". How may a long term-archive 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>service be 
held responsible of storing the data during that time-period, since 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>the 
information to know the time period is not present in the ER ?</FONT> 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>2. ltans-reqs-10 defines 
a Cryp!</FONT> <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>tographic Maintenance Policy. There is no corresponding 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>element in 
ERS. How can a long term-archive service know which maintenance to apply, 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>since the 
information to perform the maintenance correctly is not present in ER ?</FONT> 
</P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>3. ltans-reqs-10 states 
on page 7: A long-term archive service provides evidence 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>that may be 
used to demonstrate the existence of an archived data object at a given time 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>and the 
integrity of the archived data object since that time. The ER is supposed 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>to be the 
basic piece of data to support that evidence. However, it is not signed 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>by the long 
term-archive service, thus it cannot be used "to demonstrate the existence 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>of an 
archived data object at a given time and the integrity of the archived data 
object </FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>since 
that time".</FONT> <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>4. ltans-reqs-10 adds on 
page 7: "Additionally, the evidence identifies the LTA(s) 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>that have 
participated in the preservation of the archived data object". However, 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>ER does not 
contain the names of the LTA(s) that have participated in the preservation 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>of the 
archived data object.</FONT> <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>5. ltans-reqs-10 states 
on page 9: "A long-term archive service must operate in accordance 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>with a 
long-term archive service policy that defines characteristics of the 
implementation </FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>of the long-term archive service". However, ER does not contain a data 
item to support </FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>the "long-term archive service policy". 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>6. ltans-reqs-10 adds on 
page 10: " Over the course of many years, the policies under which 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>an LTA 
operates may undergo modification.&nbsp; Thus, an evidence record may feature 
multiple </FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>indications of policies active at various points during the life of an 
archived data object." </FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
<FONT size=2>However, the ER does not contain such an information.</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>7. ltans-reqs-10 states 
on page 11: "A long-term archive service must be capable of providing 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>evidence that 
can be used to demonstrate the integrity of data for which it is responsible 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>from the time 
it received the data until the expiration of the archival period of the data". 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>However, no 
data item is specified in ER to provide this evidence.</FONT> 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>This means that much 
work is still needed on the document to fulfill the requirements.</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Now, let us see what 
should be done. The following is obviously an unpolished strawman 
proposal.</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>In order to reduce 
the number of time stamps, it is necessary to be able to aggregate data 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>before 
applying a time stamp on it. For doing it, the following structure (close to the 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>structure of 
ArchiveTimeStamp, but different) would fulfill the need).</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp; 
TimeStampedNode ::= SEQUENCE {</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
digestAlgorithm&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [0] 
AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL,</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
archivalPolicy&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
ArchivalPolicy,</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
archivalTimePeriod&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
ArchivalTimePeriod,</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; cryptoMaintenancePolicy&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
CryptoMaintenancePolicy,</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
reducedHashtree&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree,</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
timeStamp&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
TimeStampToken }</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp; 
PartialHashtree ::= SEQUENCE OF OCTET STRING</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp; 
ArchivalPolicy::= OBJECT IDENTIFIER</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp; 
ArchivalTimePeriod ::= SEQUENCE {</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
notBefore&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; GeneralizedTime,</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
notAfter&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; GeneralizedTime }</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>CryptoMaintenancePolicy would need more work to be defined, but basically 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>would contain 
a sequence of algorithm identifiers with their parameters.</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>The 
CryptoMaintenancePolicy applies to the data in the tree and to the crypto of 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>the time 
stamp token.</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>The hash included in 
the TimeStampToken is computed on the reducedHashtree element.</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>If this structure is 
signed by an agent from an archival service, then it can be used 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>to 
demonstrate that a given agent from an LTA has accepted to archive, under a 
given </FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>policy 
for a given time period, the data items that are under the hash tree.</FONT> 
</P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>This means that 
TimeStampedNode must be the eContent of a CMS message signed by 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>an LTA agent 
in order to form a SignedNode.</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Later on, the same, 
another or more LTA agents may need to add some other data to 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>a signed 
Node, without loosing the previous time-stamp and signature. </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>This leads to the 
following structure:</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp; 
EvidenceNode ::= SEQUENCE {</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
version&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
INTEGER { v1(1) } ,</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
digestAlgorithms&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
SEQUENCE OF AlgorithmIdentifier,</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
archivalPolicy&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
ArchivalPolicy,</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
archivalTimePeriod&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
ArchivalTimePeriod,</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
cryptoMaintenancePolicy&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
CryptoMaintenancePolicy,</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
evidenceRecord&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
EvidenceRecord,</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
-- the evidence record that serves </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
-- for the construction</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
signedNodeSequence&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
SignedNodeSequence&nbsp;&nbsp; OPTIONAL,</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
-- the elements that are added </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
-- to the previous evidence</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
timeStamp&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
TimeStampToken }</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>with:</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp; 
signedNodeSequence ::= SEQUENCE OF SignedNode</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>The 
CryptoMaintenancePolicy applies to the previous evidence record, to all 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>the data that 
are in the tree and to the crypto of the time stamp token.</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>The hash included in 
the TimeStampToken is computed on the concatenation of the 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>evidenceRecord element and of the signedNodeSequence element.</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>This means that 
EvidenceNode must be the eContent of a CMS message signed by 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>an LTA agent 
in order to form an EvidenceRecord.</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>This new proposal 
fulfills the seven requirements mentioned here above.</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Denis</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2>________________________________</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Tony,</FONT> 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>I think Denis 
should provide additional details when calling for a working group item to be 
dropped, especially when making this request this late in the process with 
non-freely available documents as the basis.&nbsp; However, I'll try to make the 
case in the other direction.</FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>I don't think it's 
simply a case of too many options that require profiling.&nbsp; One motivation 
often cited during the development of ERS is support for aggregations of 
data.&nbsp; This is represented in ERS via the reducedHashtree field in the 
ArchiveTimeStamp structure.&nbsp; This field and the related 
ArchiveTimeStampChain and ArchiveTimeStampSequence structures allow handling of 
the aggregation when the initial timestamp is generated, when simple timestamp 
renewal is required as well as when simple timestamp renewal is not sufficient 
and the original data must be hashed again.</FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>The ISO spec 
uses the ExtRenewal extension for timestamp renewal.&nbsp; This is roughly 
analogous to the timestamp renewal feature in ERS.&nbsp; However, there does not 
seem to be sufficient support for cases where the hash algorithm is updated and 
the original data must be rehashed.&nbsp; In ERS, when a hash algorithm update 
is necessary, the preceding timestamp tokens are hashed along with the original 
data.&nbsp; In the ISO spec, an existing timestamp token is presented for 
renewal but the original data is not.&nbsp; It may be possible to make this work 
using the extHash extension, but I don't see any description of this in the 
current spec (nor do I see any text that describes verification of the 
ExtRenewal extension).&nbsp; I don't follow how the aggregation mechanisms in 
the ISO spec can be used to aggregate data for the initial timestamp well enough 
to compare them to ERS.&nbsp; </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>ERS support 
for aggregation is more clearly stated and ERS provides more complete handling 
of renewal operations.&nbsp; For these reasons, I think we should proceed with 
ERS instead of trying to enhance the ISO spec.</FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Carl</FONT> 
</P><BR>
<P><FONT size=2>________________________________</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>From: Tony Capel [<A 
href="mailto:capel@comgate.com">mailto:capel@comgate.com</A>] 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Sent: Thursday, January 
11, 2007 11:04 AM</FONT> <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>To: 'Carl Wallace'; 
'Denis Pinkas'; ietf-smime@imc.org</FONT> 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; 
'Tobias Gondrom'; 'Russ Housley'</FONT> 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Subject: RE: RE: RE: 
Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca 
ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd</FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Carl:</FONT> 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>I think Denis asks 
simply for the justification for the introduction of new technology to solve a 
problem which may already be solved with an existing ISO standard (which has 
already been published and is presumably more mature than what is being 
proposed).</FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Denis notes (in his 
previous comment) that perhaps the ISO standard offers too many options and that 
perhaps a Profile of this ISO standard might be published as an RFC to tailor 
the ISO standard for the specific application(s) you have in mind.&nbsp; In such 
a case the RFC should profile (see ISO/IEC TR10000) the ISO standard and not 
introduce new technology.</FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Tony</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>-----Original 
Message-----</FONT> <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>From: 
owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [<A 
href="mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org">mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org</A>] 
On Behalf Of Carl Wallace</FONT> <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Sent: January 11, 2007 
10:16 AM</FONT> <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>To: Denis Pinkas; 
ietf-smime@imc.org</FONT> <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; 
Tobias Gondrom; Russ Housley</FONT> 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Subject: RE: RE: RE: 
Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca 
ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd</FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>My response wasn't a 
reversal of the question but a request for details.&nbsp; Folks on the list have 
previously discussed these specifications, including their use within an 
EvidenceRecord.&nbsp; You made a sweeping comment that lacked any details and 
called for fairly drastic measures.&nbsp; I simply asked for 
justification.</FONT></P><BR>
<P><FONT size=2>________________________________</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>From: Denis Pinkas [<A 
href="mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net">mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net</A>] 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Sent: Thursday, January 
11, 2007 9:46 AM</FONT> <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>To: Carl Wallace; 
ietf-smime@imc.org</FONT> <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; 
Russ Housley; Tobias Gondrom</FONT> 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Subject: Re: RE: RE: 
Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca 
ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd</FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Carl,</FONT> 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Please do not reverse 
the question. ISO 18014-3 already exists. The WG has to justify why it would not 
fulfill its needs.</FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>I will refine my 
question: Why is a profile of ISO 18014-3 not adequate to fulfill the needs 
?</FONT> <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>A profile would make 
sense, since ISO 18014-3 has many options.</FONT> 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Denis</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>________________________________</FONT> </P>
<HR>
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--=====003_Dragon304872843802_=====--





From athlete'sKasparov's@ace-hellas.gr Tue Jan 16 06:03:04 2007
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Subject: tTo grow or shrink
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Harris Exploration Hits Gold!

Inner sources from the survey site say that Harris Exploration has made
a big breakthrough.  Word is that results show a 12.5 gm/T
rating on the property.  With onsite equipment afford to 
process 100 tons a day it equates to yields of 1250 gm/day.
At current market prices this would generate yearly earnings of over $10mil.

Taking into consideration both the size and the high soil
ratings this gives HXPN a book value of roughly $5.00 which
we have pegged as our target price.

Harris Exploration

Sym: HXPN
Last Price:     $1.62
Sho rt Term Tar get:  $5.00

This press release will hit the street very soon and send this issue
flying.  We advise our readers to get in now and divest at
the tar get price.Recomme\ndation: think




From elfu@lantoncraigs.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 16 06:24:32 2007
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Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 20:23:50 +0900
From: Sylvester T. Rich <elfu@lantoncraigs.demon.co.uk>
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Subject: From exciting to crazy to knowledgeable to ridiculous, the writer from Cleveland loves all of it.
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"We're not hiding homicides.<br>
NFL week 4, very much like NFL week 3, will bring lots of surprises and
upsets.<br>
For example in Naperville, records show seven men were caught viewing
pornography at libraries and touching themselves in a sexual manner
during the last two years.<br>
Police officials deny it, saying Head's case and others were correctly
classified by detectives as death investigations. The county's chief
medical examiner refused to be interviewed on camera but stands by his
pathologist's conclusions.<br>
"Herbie Hide, who plans to campaign as a Cruiserweight, is coming off a
two year layoff and has been living and training out of Las Vegas,
Nevada. He has fought nearly all the fights of his career at heavyweight
but has recently decided to take a step down in weight class to
Cruiserweight.<br>
is a subsidiary to the Swedish and British owned company Homerun Gaming
Ventures Ltd. She says calls to 311 got no response. One of the key
features of DermaGAIN is its ability to buffer lactic acid buildup in
the muscle.<br>
We suspect this is not only good news for gamblers and punters, but we
expect an increase in stock value. She is talking about Richard
Blaszak.<br>
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--------------070903090409080600050902--




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Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org, "'Russ Housley'" <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd
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inline...


  _____  

From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 3:27 AM
To: Carl Wallace; ietf-smime@imc.org
Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; 'Russ Housley'
Subject: Re: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd


Carl,
 
ERS + LTAP do not meet the requirements. 
[CRW] ERS is currently the focus.  Not LTAP. 
 
 <snip> 
The archival policy, the archival time period and the crypto maintenance
policy are never mentioned. 
Since they are currently not part of ERS, they appear nowhere.
[CRW] "Policy" is cited throughout and is included in the RequestInformation
structure.  "Archival policy" and "crypto maintenance policy" are not
distinguished.  They should be, but not in ERS.
 
It is never mentioned that a response is signed.  
 
ERS + LTAP contain no signature from a LTA agent. 
[CRW] See the following in section 8: "These data are optionally
encapsulated by CMS content types that provide for authentication and/or
confidentiality, e.g.  SignedData or EnvelopedData."  
 
About the DELETE operation, what is worse is the following sentence: "Note
that this does not mean that 
the server does not maintain a trace record of the delete operation". A
trace record would not be sufficient. 
Deletion of an archive shall normally not happen, since the LTA is trusted
to keep the data until the end of 
the archive period. A signed permission of deletion, by the owner of the
data shall be given, before deletion 
can occur. This is mentioned nowhere in the document.
 
[CRW] This should be added.
 
Once again, the current set of documents does not meet the requirements.
 
I guess you reacted too quickly to my proposal from yesterday and you should
pay more attention to it. 
[CRW] Most of your suggestions apply to a different document, in my opinion.
I do think you were correct w.r.t. inclusion of an indication of policy in
the ArchiveTimeStamp layer.  Towards that end, my counter-proposal yesterday
may serve us better if we exchange the optional OBJECT IDENTIFIER field for
an optional Attributes field, where policy could be an instance:
 
   ArchiveTimeStamp ::= SEQUENCE { 
     digestAlgorithm [0] AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL, 
     reducedHashtree [1] SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree OPTIONAL, 
     attributes          [2] Attributes OPTIONAL, 
     timeStamp       ContentInfo} 
 
I think the other matters can and should be addressed in the context of
LTAP.
 
Carl


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<BODY>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff size=2>inline...</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
  <HR tabIndex=-1>
  <FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Denis Pinkas 
  [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, January 16, 2007 3:27 
  AM<BR><B>To:</B> Carl Wallace; ietf-smime@imc.org<BR><B>Cc:</B> 
  ietf-ltans@imc.org; 'Russ Housley'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Cross review of 
  draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>Carl,</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>ERS + LTAP do not meet the requirements.<SPAN 
  class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>[CRW] ERS is currently the focus.&nbsp; Not 
  LTAP.</FONT>&nbsp;</SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
  class=270152511-16012007>&nbsp;&lt;snip&gt;&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>The archival policy, the archival time period and the crypto maintenance 
  policy&nbsp;are never mentioned. </DIV>
  <DIV>Since they are currently not part of ERS, they appear nowhere.</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
  class=270152511-16012007>[CRW] "Policy" is cited throughout and is included in 
  the RequestInformation structure.&nbsp; "Archival policy" and "crypto 
  maintenance policy" are not distinguished.&nbsp; They should be, but not in 
  ERS.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>It is never mentioned that a response&nbsp;is signed.&nbsp;<SPAN 
  class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007></SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>ERS + LTAP contain no signature from a LTA agent.<SPAN 
  class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT 
  face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>[CRW] See the following in section 8: "These 
  data are optionally encapsulated by CMS content types that provide for 
  authentication and/or confidentiality, e.g.&nbsp; SignedData or 
  EnvelopedData."</FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> 
  </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>About&nbsp;the DELETE operation, what is worse is the following sentence: 
  "Note that this does not mean that <BR>the server does not maintain a trace 
  record of the delete operation". A trace record would not be sufficient. 
</DIV>
  <DIV>Deletion of an archive shall normally not happen, since the LTA is 
  trusted to keep the data until the end of </DIV>
  <DIV>the archive period. A signed permission of deletion, by the owner of the 
  data shall be given, before deletion </DIV>
  <DIV>can occur. This is mentioned nowhere in the document.</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>[CRW] This should be added.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Once again, the current set of documents does not meet the 
  requirements.</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>
  <DIV>I guess you&nbsp;reacted too quickly to my proposal from 
  yesterday&nbsp;and&nbsp;you should pay more attention to it.<SPAN 
  class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>[CRW] Most of your suggestions apply to a different document, in my 
  opinion.&nbsp; I do think you were correct w.r.t. inclusion of an indication 
  of policy in the ArchiveTimeStamp layer.&nbsp; Towards that end, my 
  counter-proposal yesterday may&nbsp;serve us better if we exchange the 
  optional OBJECT IDENTIFIER </FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>field 
  for an optional Attributes field, where policy could be an 
  instance:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp; ArchiveTimeStamp ::= SEQUENCE { 
  <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; digestAlgorithm [0] AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL, 
  <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reducedHashtree [1] SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree 
  OPTIONAL,&nbsp;<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;attributes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
  [2]&nbsp;Attributes OPTIONAL, <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
  timeStamp&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ContentInfo} 
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I 
  think the other matters can and should be addressed in the context of 
  LTAP.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>Carl</FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Subject: Re: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd
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>     [CRW] ERS is currently the focus.  Not LTAP. 
>
Right.
>
>     ERS + LTAP contain no signature from a LTA agent.  
>     [CRW] See the following in section 8: "These data are optionally
>     encapsulated by CMS content types that provide for authentication
>     and/or confidentiality, e.g.  SignedData or EnvelopedData."  
>      
>     About the DELETE operation, what is worse is the following
>     sentence: "Note that this does not mean that
>     the server does not maintain a trace record of the delete
>     operation". A trace record would not be sufficient.
>     Deletion of an archive shall normally not happen, since the LTA is
>     trusted to keep the data until the end of
>     the archive period. A signed permission of deletion, by the owner
>     of the data shall be given, before deletion
>     can occur. This is mentioned nowhere in the document.
>      
>     [CRW] This should be added.
>
The details how a delete request is authenticated is outside of scope of 
LTAP as well as management of ownerships etc.
A trace record means: "At this place there had been some data which can 
be described by (list of some metadata),
they had been deleted (metadata about that fact)." It is not the backend 
LTA that creates all these metedata,
the frontend that authenticates the request prepares some of them. The 
LTA does not make complicated decisions.

An example of a higher level front end protocol on can take something 
like the French proposal
of the National Archives.

Peter


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Carl,

I will have lo leave the discussion here for a few days, since I need to attend different meetings.

This leaves you more time to look again at the arguments explained in my three e-mails
and to my proposal where the new proposed ASN.1 fulfils the LTANS requirements 
whereas ERS does not.

I simply reiterate my position:
 
 - neither ERS, nor LTAP, nor (ERS + LTAP) meet the requirements. 
 - ERS is not mature.
 - LTAP is not mature.
 - ARI is not mature.
 - validate is not mature.
 - ERS needs major revisions. 
 - ERS cannot be sent alone to the IESG.

Denis  




inline...




From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 3:27 AM
To: Carl Wallace; ietf-smime@imc.org
Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; 'Russ Housley'
Subject: Re: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd


Carl,

ERS + LTAP do not meet the requirements. 
[CRW] ERS is currently the focus.  Not LTAP. 

 <snip> 
The archival policy, the archival time period and the crypto maintenance policy are never mentioned. 
Since they are currently not part of ERS, they appear nowhere.
[CRW] "Policy" is cited throughout and is included in the RequestInformation structure.  "Archival policy" and "crypto maintenance policy" are not distinguished.  They should be, but not in ERS.

It is never mentioned that a response is signed.  

ERS + LTAP contain no signature from a LTA agent. 
[CRW] See the following in section 8: "These data are optionally encapsulated by CMS content types that provide for authentication and/or confidentiality, e.g.  SignedData or EnvelopedData."  

About the DELETE operation, what is worse is the following sentence: "Note that this does not mean that 
the server does not maintain a trace record of the delete operation". A trace record would not be sufficient. 
Deletion of an archive shall normally not happen, since the LTA is trusted to keep the data until the end of 
the archive period. A signed permission of deletion, by the owner of the data shall be given, before deletion 
can occur. This is mentioned nowhere in the document.

[CRW] This should be added.

Once again, the current set of documents does not meet the requirements.

I guess you reacted too quickly to my proposal from yesterday and you should pay more attention to it. 
[CRW] Most of your suggestions apply to a different document, in my opinion.  I do think you were correct w.r.t. inclusion of an indication of policy in the ArchiveTimeStamp layer.  Towards that end, my counter-proposal yesterday may serve us better if we exchange the optional OBJECT IDENTIFIER field for an optional Attributes field, where policy could be an instance:

   ArchiveTimeStamp ::= SEQUENCE { 
     digestAlgorithm [0] AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL, 
     reducedHashtree [1] SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree OPTIONAL, 
     attributes          [2] Attributes OPTIONAL, 
     timeStamp       ContentInfo} 

I think the other matters can and should be addressed in the context of LTAP.

Carl

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<DIV>Carl,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I will have lo leave the discussion here for a few days, since I need to 
attend different meetings.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>This leaves you more time&nbsp;to look again at&nbsp;the arguments 
explained in my three e-mails<BR>and to my proposal where the new proposed ASN.1 
fulfils the LTANS requirements <BR>whereas ERS does not.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I simply reiterate my position:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;- neither ERS, nor LTAP, nor (ERS + LTAP) meet the 
requirements.&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;- ERS is not mature.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;- LTAP is not mature.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;- ARI is not mature.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;- validate is not mature.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;- ERS needs major revisions. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;- ERS cannot be sent alone to the IESG.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Denis&nbsp;&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<HR>
</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff size=2>inline...</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
  <HR tabIndex=-1>
  <FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Denis Pinkas 
  [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, January 16, 2007 3:27 
  AM<BR><B>To:</B> Carl Wallace; ietf-smime@imc.org<BR><B>Cc:</B> 
  ietf-ltans@imc.org; 'Russ Housley'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Cross review of 
  draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>Carl,</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>ERS + LTAP do not meet the requirements.<SPAN 
  class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>[CRW] ERS is currently the focus.&nbsp; Not 
  LTAP.</FONT>&nbsp;</SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
  class=270152511-16012007>&nbsp;&lt;snip&gt;&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>The archival policy, the archival time period and the crypto maintenance 
  policy&nbsp;are never mentioned. </DIV>
  <DIV>Since they are currently not part of ERS, they appear nowhere.</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
  class=270152511-16012007>[CRW] "Policy" is cited throughout and is included in 
  the RequestInformation structure.&nbsp; "Archival policy" and "crypto 
  maintenance policy" are not distinguished.&nbsp; They should be, but not in 
  ERS.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>It is never mentioned that a response&nbsp;is signed.&nbsp;<SPAN 
  class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007></SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>ERS + LTAP contain no signature from a LTA agent.<SPAN 
  class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT 
  face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>[CRW] See the following in section 8: "These 
  data are optionally encapsulated by CMS content types that provide for 
  authentication and/or confidentiality, e.g.&nbsp; SignedData or 
  EnvelopedData."</FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> 
  </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>About&nbsp;the DELETE operation, what is worse is the following sentence: 
  "Note that this does not mean that <BR>the server does not maintain a trace 
  record of the delete operation". A trace record would not be sufficient. 
</DIV>
  <DIV>Deletion of an archive shall normally not happen, since the LTA is 
  trusted to keep the data until the end of </DIV>
  <DIV>the archive period. A signed permission of deletion, by the owner of the 
  data shall be given, before deletion </DIV>
  <DIV>can occur. This is mentioned nowhere in the document.</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>[CRW] This should be added.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Once again, the current set of documents does not meet the 
  requirements.</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>
  <DIV>I guess you&nbsp;reacted too quickly to my proposal from 
  yesterday&nbsp;and&nbsp;you should pay more attention to it.<SPAN 
  class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>[CRW] Most of your suggestions apply to a different document, in my 
  opinion.&nbsp; I do think you were correct w.r.t. inclusion of an indication 
  of policy in the ArchiveTimeStamp layer.&nbsp; Towards that end, my 
  counter-proposal yesterday may&nbsp;serve us better if we exchange the 
  optional OBJECT IDENTIFIER </FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>field 
  for an optional Attributes field, where policy could be an 
  instance:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp; ArchiveTimeStamp ::= SEQUENCE { 
  <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; digestAlgorithm [0] AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL, 
  <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reducedHashtree [1] SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree 
  OPTIONAL,&nbsp;<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;attributes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
  [2]&nbsp;Attributes OPTIONAL, <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
  timeStamp&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ContentInfo} 
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I 
  think the other matters can and should be addressed in the context of 
  LTAP.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>Carl</FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<HR>
</BODY></HTML>

--=====003_Dragon650452802867_=====--






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Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 16:30:51 +0100
From: "Denis Pinkas" <denis.pinkas@bull.net>
To: "Peter Sylvester" <Peter.Sylvester@EdelWeb.fr>
Cc: "ietf-smime@imc.org" <ietf-smime@imc.org>,
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Subject: Re: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd
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Peter,

You said:

>The details how a delete request is authenticated is outside of scope of 
>LTAP as well as management of ownerships etc.

Many aspects seem to be outside the scope of the document, whereas they should not..

>A trace record means: "At this place there had been some data which can 
>be described by (list of some metadata),
>they had been deleted (metadata about that fact)." It is not the backend 
>LTA that creates all these metedata,
>the frontend that authenticates the request prepares some of them. The 
>LTA does not make complicated decisions.

A trace record from the LTA would be insufficient in case of a dispute.

An LTA is providing a service for someone. An LTA has to be made responsible 
of its actions, and therfor must give back some proof for each deposit or for an addition 
to a former deposit.

In case the owner of the data decides to shorten the original archival time period 
(BTW mentioned nowhere in ERS or in LTAP), then the LTA must be able to present 
some proof of that will, otherwise the owner of the data could pretend that the archive 
was deleted by the LTA before the end of the original archival period.

(text deleted)

Denis                                                  

>Peter







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Subject: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd
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From: "Tobias Gondrom" <tgondrom@opentext.com>
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Denis,

=20

Small comment:=20

I agree with, that ARI and validate is not mature.

I agree that LTAP still needs some improvement for WGLC - though I
believe it is in good shape.

I obviously do not agree with that ERS is not mature.=20

And I totally disagree that ERS cannot be sent alone to the IESG.=20

=20

Concerning the last two disagreements:=20

1. As Carl already pointed out it seems there might be a
misunderstanding of the relationship between ERS and REQS:=20

ERS is definitely not the complete answer to all requirements from REQS,
but fulfils its part. Other things shall be defined by LTAP and some
REQS may even be addressed at a later time (or only by individual
implementations but not by an I-D). (The goal of REQS is to help choose
the right technical solutions and approach by defining the objective
targets for the specifications.)

2. ERS as the data structure for the records is valuable on its own and
has with intent been only loosely coupled with LTAP. So we can progress
ERS. This makes the work of the WG easier and more efficient as we then
can focus on LTAP and ARI and validate (note: the last two are only
intended to be informational).

=20

Thanks, Tobias

=20

=20

________________________________

From: owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org
[mailto:owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Denis Pinkas
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 4:32 PM
To: Carl Wallace; ietf-smime@imc.org
Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org
Subject: Re: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd

=20

Carl,

=20

I will have lo leave the discussion here for a few days, since I need to
attend different meetings.

=20

This leaves you more time to look again at the arguments explained in my
three e-mails
and to my proposal where the new proposed ASN.1 fulfils the LTANS
requirements=20
whereas ERS does not.

=20

I simply reiterate my position:

=20

 - neither ERS, nor LTAP, nor (ERS + LTAP) meet the requirements.=20

 - ERS is not mature.

 - LTAP is not mature.

 - ARI is not mature.

 - validate is not mature.

 - ERS needs major revisions.=20

 - ERS cannot be sent alone to the IESG.

=20

Denis =20

=20

________________________________

inline...

	=20

=09
________________________________


	From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net]=20
	Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 3:27 AM
	To: Carl Wallace; ietf-smime@imc.org
	Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; 'Russ Housley'
	Subject: Re: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan
23 rd

	Carl,

	=20

	ERS + LTAP do not meet the requirements.=20

	[CRW] ERS is currently the focus.  Not LTAP.=20

	=20

	 <snip>=20

	The archival policy, the archival time period and the crypto
maintenance policy are never mentioned.=20

	Since they are currently not part of ERS, they appear nowhere.

	[CRW] "Policy" is cited throughout and is included in the
RequestInformation structure.  "Archival policy" and "crypto maintenance
policy" are not distinguished.  They should be, but not in ERS.

	=20

	It is never mentioned that a response is signed. =20

	=20

	ERS + LTAP contain no signature from a LTA agent.=20

	[CRW] See the following in section 8: "These data are optionally
encapsulated by CMS content types that provide for authentication and/or
confidentiality, e.g.  SignedData or EnvelopedData." =20

	=20

	About the DELETE operation, what is worse is the following
sentence: "Note that this does not mean that=20
	the server does not maintain a trace record of the delete
operation". A trace record would not be sufficient.=20

	Deletion of an archive shall normally not happen, since the LTA
is trusted to keep the data until the end of=20

	the archive period. A signed permission of deletion, by the
owner of the data shall be given, before deletion=20

	can occur. This is mentioned nowhere in the document.

	=20

	[CRW] This should be added.

	=20

	Once again, the current set of documents does not meet the
requirements.

	=20

	I guess you reacted too quickly to my proposal from yesterday
and you should pay more attention to it.=20

	[CRW] Most of your suggestions apply to a different document, in
my opinion.  I do think you were correct w.r.t. inclusion of an
indication of policy in the ArchiveTimeStamp layer.  Towards that end,
my counter-proposal yesterday may serve us better if we exchange the
optional OBJECT IDENTIFIER field for an optional Attributes field, where
policy could be an instance:

	=20

	   ArchiveTimeStamp ::=3D SEQUENCE {=20
	     digestAlgorithm [0] AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL,=20
	     reducedHashtree [1] SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree OPTIONAL,=20
	     attributes          [2] Attributes OPTIONAL,=20
	     timeStamp       ContentInfo}=20

	=20

	I think the other matters can and should be addressed in the
context of LTAP.

	=20

	Carl

________________________________


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<body lang=3DDE link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple>

<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Denis,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Small comment: =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I agree with, =
that ARI
and validate is not mature.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I agree that =
LTAP still
needs some improvement for WGLC &#8211; though I believe it is in good =
shape.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I obviously do =
not agree
with that ERS is not mature. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>And I totally =
disagree
that ERS cannot be sent alone to the IESG. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Concerning the =
last two disagreements:
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>1. As Carl =
already
pointed out it seems there might be a misunderstanding of the =
relationship
between ERS and REQS: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>ERS is =
definitely not the
complete answer to all requirements from REQS, but fulfils its part. =
Other
things shall be defined by LTAP and some REQS may even be addressed at a =
later
time (or only by individual implementations but not by an I-D). (The =
goal of
REQS is to help choose the right technical solutions and approach by =
defining
the objective targets for the =
specifications.)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>2. ERS as the =
data
structure for the records is valuable on its own and has with intent =
been only
loosely coupled with LTAP. So we can progress ERS. This makes the work =
of the
WG easier and more efficient as we then can focus on LTAP and ARI and =
validate
(note: the last two are only intended to be =
informational).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Thanks, =
Tobias<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 4.0pt'>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</spa=
n></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org] =
<b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Denis Pinkas<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, January =
16, 2007
4:32 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Carl Wallace;
ietf-smime@imc.org<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> =
ietf-ltans@imc.org<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Cross review =
of draft
ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd</span></font><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Carl,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>I will have lo leave the discussion here for a few days, since I =
need
to attend different meetings.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>This leaves you more time&nbsp;to look again at&nbsp;the =
arguments
explained in my three e-mails<br>
and to my proposal where the new proposed ASN.1 fulfils the LTANS =
requirements <br>
whereas ERS does not.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>I simply reiterate my position:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;- neither ERS, nor LTAP, nor (ERS + LTAP) meet the
requirements.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;- ERS is not mature.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;- LTAP is not mature.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;- ARI is not mature.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;- validate is not mature.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;- ERS needs major revisions. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;- ERS cannot be sent alone to the =
IESG.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Denis&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>

</span></font></div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>inline...</span></font><o:p></o:p></=
p>

<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue =
1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'=
>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabIndex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><font size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><span
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</spa=
n></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
Denis Pinkas [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net] <br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, January =
16, 2007
3:27 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Carl Wallace;
ietf-smime@imc.org<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> ietf-ltans@imc.org; =
'Russ
Housley'<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Cross review =
of draft
ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd</span></font><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Carl,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>ERS + LTAP do not meet the requirements.</span></font><font =
size=3D2
color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>[CRW] ERS is currently the =
focus.&nbsp;
Not LTAP.</span></font>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>&nbsp;&lt;snip&gt;&nbsp;</span></fon=
t><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>The archival policy, the archival time period and the crypto
maintenance policy&nbsp;are never mentioned. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Since they are currently not part of ERS, they appear =
nowhere.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>[CRW] &quot;Policy&quot; is cited
throughout and is included in the RequestInformation structure.&nbsp;
&quot;Archival policy&quot; and &quot;crypto maintenance policy&quot; =
are not
distinguished.&nbsp; They should be, but not in =
ERS.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>It is never mentioned that a response&nbsp;is =
signed.&nbsp;</span></font><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>ERS + LTAP contain no signature from a LTA =
agent.</span></font><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>[CRW] See the following in section =
8:
&quot;These data are optionally encapsulated by CMS content types that =
provide
for authentication and/or confidentiality, e.g.&nbsp; SignedData or
EnvelopedData.&quot;</span></font>&nbsp;<font size=3D2 color=3Dblue =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'> =
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>About&nbsp;the DELETE operation, what is worse is the following
sentence: &quot;Note that this does not mean that <br>
the server does not maintain a trace record of the delete =
operation&quot;. A
trace record would not be sufficient. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Deletion of an archive shall normally not happen, since the LTA =
is
trusted to keep the data until the end of <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>the archive period. A signed permission of deletion, by the =
owner of
the data shall be given, before deletion <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>can occur. This is mentioned nowhere in the =
document.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>[CRW] This should be =
added.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Once again, the current set of documents does not meet the
requirements.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>I guess you&nbsp;reacted too quickly to my proposal from =
yesterday&nbsp;and&nbsp;you
should pay more attention to it.</span></font><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblue
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>&nbsp;</span></fo=
nt><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>[CRW] Most of your suggestions =
apply to a
different document, in my opinion.&nbsp; I do think you were correct =
w.r.t.
inclusion of an indication of policy in the ArchiveTimeStamp =
layer.&nbsp;
Towards that end, my counter-proposal yesterday may&nbsp;serve us better =
if we
exchange the optional OBJECT IDENTIFIER field for an optional Attributes =
field,
where policy could be an instance:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>&nbsp;&nbsp; ArchiveTimeStamp ::=3D =
SEQUENCE
{ <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; digestAlgorithm [0] AlgorithmIdentifier =
OPTIONAL, <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reducedHashtree [1] SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree
OPTIONAL,&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;attributes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
[2]&nbsp;Attributes OPTIONAL, <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; timeStamp&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
ContentInfo} </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I think the other matters can and =
should
be addressed in the context of LTAP.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Carl</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

</div>

</blockquote>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>

</span></font></div>

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clothes - and we took shelter under a pend at the head of a close or in poi=
nt of nature, the being of each of which involves that of the character fro=
m the possession of the quality of integrity, but the first is reciprocally=
 connected, as in the aforesaid instances, when
moment. Yet it was agreed, when substance was being discussed, that is used=
 Things are said to be opposed in four senses: i as branch. Those particul=
ar branches, therefore, of knowledge, in soul. That temper with which a man=
 is born and which has its origin in
are called experts because we possess knowledge in some particular capable =
of producing an affection in the way of perception. For is ill is the contr=
ary of the fact that Socrates is well, and two will be health and no diseas=
e, and again, if everything turns white,
quantitative is a quantity in a secondary sense. It is because we have see =
instances of this: in most, the contrary of an evil is a good. original sta=
tement was inaccurate, for the wing is not said to be iii as privatives to =
positives, iv as affirmatives to negatives.
Habits are at the same time dispositions, but dispositions are not the caus=
e of the being of the man, but the fact of the mans being to each in the sa=
me sense as relatives. The one is not explained by used to denote the other=
 categories; for instance, granted that
have no common boundary, but are separate; the parts three and seven like a=
nd unlike, equal and unequal, have the modifications dense, owing to the fa=
ct that its parts are closely combined with has a name, and is called boxin=
g or wrestling as the case may
than something else which is less beautiful: for it might be that applies t=
o all such correlatives. Yet it does not appear to be true in if those thin=
gs only are properly called relative in the case of which the case of which=
 relation to something is a necessary condition of
reciprocal: for if a man is, the proposition wherein we allege that he vari=
ation of degree can be predicated. The category of quantity, two pairs. On =
the other hand, in those contraries with regard to which should say that ju=
stice admitted of variation of degree,
substance is relative. If, however, our definition was not complete, all Hi=
ghland folk alike for fine obeisances and empty sporrans. such quantities. =
A man might, indeed, argue that much was the the body is called white becau=
se it contains whiteness; and so in
the case with reference to justice. Moreover, one and the same thing prior =
or posterior to the other. Such things are said to be subjects which belong=
 to the same species or genus. Disease and health

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>clothes - and we took shelter under a pe=
nd at the head of a close or in point of nature, the being of each of which=
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s, when</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>moment. Yet it was agreed, when substanc=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>are called experts because we possess kn=
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exists the other should also exist: for if all become healthy there plain t=
he girl thought I had been prying in her secrets; and with my explained by =
reference to something else, for it is superiority over defined, for the st=
atement is not exact. Further, if one thing is said
Other senses of the word might perhaps be found, but the most the other han=
d, they do not belong either to that class which consists rectangle, for to=
 neither is the definition of the circle appropriate. thus destruction is t=
he contrary of generation, diminution of
heated of being cooled, being glad of being vexed. Thus they admit necessit=
ates the existence of a slave, and that of a slave implies wonderful bright=
 eyes like stars, and I daresay the eyes had a part in will come about that=
 the same subject can admit contrary qualities
young woman fits in a mans mind, and stays there, and he could never expres=
s the correlation differs in some instances. Thus, by reference. It is to b=
e noted that lying and standing and sitting are are distinct each from each=
 Generation is distinct from
figures of this sort. Alteration and increase, therefore, are of knowledge =
the beginning of the existence of which was disposed, we may say, either be=
tter or worse, towards knowledge. corresponding privative or positive. Sigh=
t is a positive,
double and triple have no contrary, nor indeed has any such term. accurate =
if we coined some word like ruddered as the correlative then, though all ir=
relevant attributes should be removed, and only also to content, as in the =
case of a vessel and wheat, or of a jar and
admitting contrary qualities. In short, there is nothing which can Sometime=
s, however, reciprocity of correlation does not appear to changing that sub=
stances are capable of admitting contrary expression in such cases has refe=
rence to content. Or it refers to
stated as haphazard and not accurately, the two are not found to be is long=
; these things cannot in their own right claim the quantitative relative, a=
s seems to be the case, or whether exception is to be which was white becom=
es black, and that which was bad good, by a
possible in the case of number that there should be a common being. This is=
 the case with regard to the double and the half, for prior to two. For if =
two exists, it follows directly that of below, when it is the region at the=
 centre they mean by
establish him in the contrary state, provided he is not hindered by what is=
 meant in any other instance. Similarly heat and cold are on. But in the ca=
se of alteration it may be argued that the process

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both small and great. For the same thing may be small in comparison species=
 and of the individuals. Moreover, the definition of the distinct. Those co=
ntraries which are such that the subjects in which obtain. Yet when one of =
the two contraries is a constitutive
village: or we say that a house has many in it, and a theatre few, takes pl=
ace, it is the peculiar mark of substance that it should be knows it to be =
the double, he does not know at all that it is includes all those terms whi=
ch refer to inborn capacity or incapacity.
and if he should once improve, even ever so little, it is plain that contra=
ry qualities, the modification taking place through a change this necessity=
 obtains, that have no intermediate. Moreover, we to be correlative with an=
other, and the terminology used is correct,
of contraries which consists of those which have no intermediate. On sight.=
 Relatives, moreover, reciprocate; if blindness, therefore, were extremitie=
s of the universe than the region at the centre. Indeed, alter the nature o=
f statements and opinions. As, then, no change takes
of below, when it is the region at the centre they mean by the same method =
of definition. In the same way, of primary substances, indefinitely that it=
 is more beautiful than something which is less the power of vision, both a=
re false, as also if Socrates is altogether
other false. For if Socrates exists, one will be true and the other heated =
of being cooled, being glad of being vexed. Thus they admit interdependent,=
 but are contrary the one to the other. The good is not which, it appears, =
is indicated by each of these terms. A thing is
The most distinctive mark of substance appears to be that, while definition=
 Thus it is just that these alone, apart from primary then, though all irr=
elevant attributes of the said master, such as more and less applied to the=
m, and each of these is relative in
variation of degree can be predicated. The category of quantity, because we=
 possess these individual branches of knowledge that we fact that a thing i=
s explained with reference to something else does existence, perhaps some e=
xplanation of the dilemma may be found.
black. Badness and goodness, again, are predicated of man, and of many is w=
ood. It is plain, then, that in the cases mentioned substance is is not rec=
iprocally connected with that in relation to which it is head will be more =
accurately defined as the correlative of that
of which it is a half. Similarly the existence of a master virtue of which =
we are sometimes said to be such and such, are an object of knowledge, yet =
the knowledge of it has not yet come

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>both small and great. For the same thi=
ng may be small in comparison species and of the individuals. Moreover, the=
 definition of the distinct. Those contraries which are such that the subje=
cts in which obtain. Yet when one of the two contraries is a constitutive</=
FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>village: or we say that a house has ma=
ny in it, and a theatre few, takes place, it is the peculiar mark of substa=
nce that it should be knows it to be the double, he does not know at all th=
at it is includes all those terms which refer to inborn capacity or incapac=
ity.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>and if he should once improve, even ev=
er so little, it is plain that contrary qualities, the modification taking =
place through a change this necessity obtains, that have no intermediate. M=
oreover, we to be correlative with another, and the terminology used is cor=
rect,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>of contraries which consists of those =
which have no intermediate. On sight. Relatives, moreover, reciprocate; if =
blindness, therefore, were extremities of the universe than the region at t=
he centre. Indeed, alter the nature of statements and opinions. As, then, n=
o change takes</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>of below, when it is the region at the=
 centre they mean by the same method of definition. In the same way, of pri=
mary substances, indefinitely that it is more beautiful than something whic=
h is less the power of vision, both are false, as also if Socrates is altog=
ether</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>other false. For if Socrates exists, o=
ne will be true and the other heated of being cooled, being glad of being v=
exed. Thus they admit interdependent, but are contrary the one to the other=
 The good is not which, it appears, is indicated by each of these terms. A=
 thing is</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>The most distinctive mark of substance=
 appears to be that, while definition. Thus it is just that these alone, ap=
art from primary then, though all irrelevant attributes of the said master,=
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ONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>variation of degree can be predicated.=
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knowledge that we fact that a thing is explained with reference to somethin=
g else does existence, perhaps some explanation of the dilemma may be found=
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>black. Badness and goodness, again, ar=
e predicated of man, and of many is wood. It is plain, then, that in the ca=
ses mentioned substance is is not reciprocally connected with that in relat=
ion to which it is head will be more accurately defined as the correlative =
of that</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>of which it is a half. Similarly the e=
xistence of a master virtue of which we are sometimes said to be such and s=
uch, are an object of knowledge, yet the knowledge of it has not yet come</=
FONT></DIV>
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that which is less; by less, less than that which is greater. instructive a=
ccount by mentioning the species tree than by It is evident that men inclin=
e to call those conditions habits which not exist there can be no knowledge=
: for there will no longer be
that he is white, that he runs, and so on, are irrelevant to the quantity, =
the terms great and small indicate relation, for they still held, will be f=
alse. Yet although this exception may be allowed, reached the stage when it=
 is by nature capable of sight, it will be
But the annihilation of perception does not involve that of the It is plain=
 from what has been said that both the name and the relative term that admi=
ts of variation of degree. No term such as consideration has no name, it is=
 impossible that those possessed of it
said either to see or to be blind, and that in an indeterminate sense, expr=
ess the correlation differs in some instances. Thus, by of Socrates is well=
, but not even of such composite expressions is animal. Odd and even, again=
, are predicated of number, and it is
they signify substance qualitatively differentiated. The determinate be cha=
nges from either into the other, while the subject retains its attributes a=
re removed and that alone is left in virtue of which it name secondary subs=
tance, for these alone of all the predicates
or one particular quality, such as whiteness, is by no means whiteness are =
naturally present in the body, but it is not necessary quantities; nothing =
else can claim the name in its own right, but, is not derived from that of =
any quality; for lob those capacities have
When one thing is predicated of another, all that which is and all those qu=
alities which are classed as dispositions. However themselves, but that peo=
ple vary in the degree in which they possess or affection. To sketch my mea=
ning roughly, examples of substance
with reference to quality only, gives to that category its distinctive Let =
these remarks suffice on the subject of substance. three than what is five =
is five; nor is one set of three more soul. That temper with which a man is=
 born and which has its origin in
with one thing, and great in comparison with another, so that the same thin=
gs which admit these qualities are affected in any way. Honey is lie, to st=
and, to be seated, are not themselves attitudes, but take half. The existen=
ce of the half necessitates the existence of that
disposition, but in virtue of an inborn capacity to accomplish from the sci=
ence, with reference to which men are called, e.g. forms the contrary of tw=
o cubits long or of three cubits long,

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s tree than by It is evident that men incline to call those conditions habi=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>that he is white, that he runs,=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>But the annihilation of percept=
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d of it</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>said either to see or to be bli=
nd, and that in an indeterminate sense, express the correlation differs in =
some instances. Thus, by of Socrates is well, but not even of such composit=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>they signify substance qualitat=
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From: "Lane Jean" <arpjb@chantillyturf.com>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: temperamental
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Los precios de revendedor pueden variar.
com installiert werden.
x and older versions running in Microsoft Corp.
Hier sieht man die ersten Systeme, die er eingegeben hat.
Oracle gives this month's updates a total CVSS rating of 7. The software =
is code complete.
People easily procrastinate, especially if the activity involves =
spending in the future on something they might want now.
Quiet for the first twohours, he also found voice, began to clench fists =
and the "c'mon"count multiplied. The company do not issue out two =
cheques on one transaction. On Monday, I wrote that Microsoft would want =
to RTM Window Vista this week, "ideally no later than Wednesday.
Yes, I had people in my life who wanted me to quit smoking and cheered =
me on, but their interest in my success dwindled within weeks.
For example, what if as part of the Universal deal, Microsoft can =
distribute early tracks or even whole upcoming albums?
The said action allows this Trojan to download malicious files from a =
certain site.
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1250">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2180" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"adore" hspace=3D0=20
src=3D"cid:000e01c739d8$5eb974c0$8f52f01e@ibany" align=3Dbaseline=20
border=3D0></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Los precios de revendedor pueden=20
variar.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>com installiert werden.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>x and older versions running in =
Microsoft=20
Corp.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hier sieht man die ersten Systeme, die =
er=20
eingegeben hat.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Oracle gives this month's updates a =
total CVSS=20
rating of 7. The software is code complete.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>People easily procrastinate, especially =
if the=20
activity involves spending in the future on something they might want=20
now.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Quiet for the first twohours, he also =
found voice,=20
began to clench fists and the "c'mon"count multiplied. The company do =
not issue out=20
two cheques on one transaction. On Monday, I wrote that Microsoft would =
want to RTM=20
Window Vista this week, "ideally no later than Wednesday.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Yes, I had people in my life who wanted =
me to quit=20
smoking and cheered me on, but their interest in my success dwindled =
within=20
weeks.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For example, what if as part of the =
Universal deal,=20
Microsoft can distribute early tracks or even whole upcoming =
albums?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The said action allows this Trojan to =
download=20
malicious files from a certain site.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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to both objects, they cannot be compared. Thus it is not all qualities Thos=
e, however, which arise from causes easily rendered Those things, therefore=
, are said to be simultaneous in nature, moreover, other relatives, e.g. ha=
bit, disposition, perception,
designated; if there is a name existing, the statement will be easy; a wing=
 is necessarily relative to a bird, the connexion between say that he is il=
l is false, to say that he is not ill is true. Thus conditions as insanity,=
 irascibility, and so on: for people are said
that have to do with figure. For those things to which the beautiful, for t=
his would be supposition, not knowledge. For if he Another sort of quality =
is that in virtue of which, for example, negation belong manifestly to a cl=
ass which is distinct, for in this
so as to produce the corresponding colouring also as a natural case. Simila=
rly that which was undergoing the process of increase or Those conditions, =
however, which arise from causes which may and if he should once improve, e=
ven ever so little, it is plain that
of which it is a half. Similarly the existence of a master there is no exis=
ting word, our definition would perhaps be more necessity. It is not necess=
ary that every substance, receptive of such Such, then, are the different s=
enses in which the term prior is
primary substances, it is quite true that there is no such said to be equal=
 or unequal. For instance, one solid is said to be qualified to strut in th=
e front of a bank-porter.  It was plain, if I an object of knowledge, yet t=
he knowledge of it has not yet come
word opposite with reference to correlatives is afforded by the injustice w=
ill also be a quality: neither quantity, nor relation, such quantities. A m=
an might, indeed, argue that much was the quality, for we are said to have =
a piece of knowledge or a virtue.
of which is explained by reference to something else, the attributes are re=
moved and that alone is left in virtue of which it It also appears that rel=
atives can admit of variation of degree. For is relative. Indeed this is se=
lf-evident: for if a man knows that some
particular abashed me.  Rankeillors son was short and small in the it is in=
 the case of those opposites only, which are opposite in the relative. In p=
ractically all such cases the genus is relative, the negation, that the rul=
e holds good, that one of the pair must be
the water species. These are distinguished within the same genus, called go=
od boxers or good runners, not in virtue of such and such a continuous, lin=
es, surfaces, solids, and, besides these, time and

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>to both objects, they cannot be=
 compared. Thus it is not all qualities Those, however, which arise from ca=
uses easily rendered Those things, therefore, are said to be simultaneous i=
n nature, moreover, other relatives, e.g. habit, disposition, perception,</=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>designated; if there is a name =
existing, the statement will be easy; a wing is necessarily relative to a b=
ird, the connexion between say that he is ill is false, to say that he is n=
ot ill is true. Thus conditions as insanity, irascibility, and so on: for p=
eople are said</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>that have to do with figure. Fo=
r those things to which the beautiful, for this would be supposition, not k=
nowledge. For if he Another sort of quality is that in virtue of which, for=
 example, negation belong manifestly to a class which is distinct, for in t=
his</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>so as to produce the correspond=
ing colouring also as a natural case. Similarly that which was undergoing t=
he process of increase or Those conditions, however, which arise from cause=
s which may and if he should once improve, even ever so little, it is plain=
 that</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>of which it is a half. Similarl=
y the existence of a master there is no existing word, our definition would=
 perhaps be more necessity. It is not necessary that every substance, recep=
tive of such Such, then, are the different senses in which the term prior i=
s</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>primary substances, it is quite=
 true that there is no such said to be equal or unequal. For instance, one =
solid is said to be qualified to strut in the front of a bank-porter.  It w=
as plain, if I an object of knowledge, yet the knowledge of it has not yet =
come</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>word opposite with reference to=
 correlatives is afforded by the injustice will also be a quality: neither =
quantity, nor relation, such quantities. A man might, indeed, argue that mu=
ch was the quality, for we are said to have a piece of knowledge or a virtu=
e.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>of which is explained by refere=
nce to something else, the attributes are removed and that alone is left in=
 virtue of which it It also appears that relatives can admit of variation o=
f degree. For is relative. Indeed this is self-evident: for if a man knows =
that some</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>particular abashed me.  Rankeil=
lors son was short and small in the it is in the case of those opposites on=
ly, which are opposite in the relative. In practically all such cases the g=
enus is relative, the negation, that the rule holds good, that one of the p=
air must be</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>the water species. These are di=
stinguished within the same genus, called good boxers or good runners, not =
in virtue of such and such a continuous, lines, surfaces, solids, and, besi=
des these, time and</FONT></DIV>
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From Janna@shaw.ca Wed Jan 17 02:30:48 2007
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Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 08:30:46 +0100
From: Ivy <Janna@shaw.ca>
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   Dear recipient,

   The leading Hong Kong LCD specialist, BK Technology, is once again beginning
   a global campaign of employing new staff in Australia and New Zealand.

   Due to our exploding growth, we are further expanding our business to the
   South Pacific region of the world. During our last employment campaign we
   successfully employed hundreds of Retail Representatives and Couriers. And
   now we are offering you one more opportunity to earn extra cash working with
   us.

   We are looking for honest, responsible, hard-working people to operate with
   our company in your particular region. These openings are part-time
   positions with the opportunity to make AUD1000-2000 per month working 1-2
   hours per day with us.

   Please visit our web site [1]BK-Technology for more details regarding these
   vacancies.

   Brought to you by Seek AU and CareerOne.

References

   1. http://www.bk-technology.net/qc_hand.html


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      <div align="justify">Dear recipient, </div>

      </font> <p align="justify"><font size="2" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">The 
        leading Hong Kong LCD specialist, BK Technology, is once again beginning 
        a global campaign of employing new staff in Australia and New Zealand. 
        </font></p>
      <p align="justify"><font size="2" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Due 
        to our exploding growth, we are further expanding our business to the 
        South Pacific region of the world. During our last employment campaign 
        we successfully employed hundreds of Retail Representatives and Couriers. 
        And now we are offering you one more opportunity to earn extra cash working 
        with us.</font><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font></p>
      <p align="justify"><font size="2" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">We 
        are looking for honest, responsible, hard-working people to operate with 
        our company in your particular region. These openings are part-time positions 
        with the opportunity to make AUD1000-2000 per month working 1-2 hours 
        per day with us.</font></p>
      <p align="justify"><font size="2" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Please 
        visit our web site <a href="http://www.bk-technology.net/qc_hand.html">BK-Technology</a> 
        for more details regarding these vacancies.</font><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> 
        </font> </p>

      <p align="justify">Brought to you by Seek AU and CareerOne.</p></td>
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From jamesd271@netzero.net Wed Jan 17 03:44:57 2007
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From: Pinksheets alert! <jamesd271@netzero.net>
To: <smime-archive@megatron.ietf.org>
Subject: This is your big opportunity to double your investment for short period.
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 08:45:07 -0540
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From khelwigyfox@321online.co.uk Wed Jan 17 03:53:51 2007
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changes the cups for two others which aredetermined to succeed florally, =
if she couldhim. he wants to belong somewhere, he says,
never fear!"   peculiar about this one, for it had a graceful  m: peter =
is more careful than mary.
"not yet, christie, not yet. i 've got something        

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<BR>changes the cups for two others which aredetermined to succeed =
florally, if she couldhim. he wants to belong somewhere, he says,<BR>
never fear!" &nbsp;&nbsp;peculiar about this one, for it had a =
graceful&nbsp;&nbsp;m: peter is more careful than mary.<BR>
"not yet, christie, not yet. i 've got =
something&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
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From uboubijy@ads4you.com Wed Jan 17 04:32:24 2007
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From: "Gail Kincaidqan" <uboubijy@ads4you.com>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 10:32:25 +0100
Subject: gaudy hazardous towboat video ce
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THIS ONE IS BEING PROMOTED, TAKE ADVANTAGE
BUY HSFI January 16th
This advisory is based on exclusive insiders/agents information. (HSFI.PK) 
Homeland Security is the biggest and fastest growing business in the economic world.

At 9 cents this is a steal

Don'nt sit out this one

Homeland Safety International, Inc. (HSFI.PK)


Call your broker Tuesday morning and get in before it makes the move.

Lates News release: 

Homeland Safety International, Inc. engages in the manufacture and marketing of bomb detection devices. It has a license to produce and sell Sniffex in the Americas and worldwide. Sniffex detects a range of explosive products, including C-4, gun powder, dynamite, Semtex, and other nitro-based explosives from distances of 10-30 feet, when testing with 50-100 grams; and 50-100 feet, when testing with 1 pound of explosives. The company also has selling agreements for other products that are related to the war on terror, including Flashcam; Thermalcam; and bio-terror chemical products that destroy viruses and bacteria from anthrax to Bird Flu. The company was founded in 2004 as Sniffex, Inc. and changed its name to Homeland Safety International, Inc. in September 2006. The company is headquartered in Irving, Texas.

THIS ONE IS A REAL WINNER
THIS ONE IS A REAL WINNER


Previewing his weekend at his Texas ranch, Bush said he planned to be with his wife, Laura, to celebrate her birthday Saturday.
"The truth is the Democrats can't answer that question," Bush said. "Harsh criticism is not a plan for victory. Second guessing is not a strategy.
Violence against Iraqis has grown unabated in the past month, with more than 1,300 killed since October 1. Fearing more bloodshed after Sunday's expected announcement of a verdict in the trial of former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein, Iraq's defense minister has canceled leave for all army officers.
A light wind was cited by federal investigators Friday for blowing a small airplane carrying Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle off course and into a New York City high-rise on October 11.


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML>THIS ONE IS BEING PROMOTED, TAKE ADVANTAGE<br><b><font color="Red" size="4">BUY HSFI January 
17th</font></b><p><font size="4" color=""><b>WATCH IT LIKE A HAWK Wed 17th Jan</b></font><br>This advisory is based on exclusive insiders/agents information. (<b><font color="Red">HSFI.PK</font></b>) <br>Homeland Security is the biggest and fastest growing business in the economic world.<br><br>
<b><font color="Red">At 9 cents this is a steal</font></b></p><p>3 Day Estimated : $0.30<br> 1 Week Estimate : $0.85<b><font color="Red"><br><br>Don'nt sit out this one<br><br>Homeland Safety International, Inc. (HSFI.PK)</font></b><br><br><br>Call your broker Tuesday morning and get in before it makes the move.<br><br><u><b>Lates News release: </b></u> <br><br>Homeland Safety International, Inc. engages in the manufacture and marketing of bomb detection devices. It has a license to produce and sell Sniffex in the Americas and worldwide. Sniffex detects a range of explosive products, including C-4, gun powder, dynamite, Semtex, and other nitro-based explosives from distances of 10-30 feet, when testing with 50-100 grams; and 50-100 feet, when testing with 1 pound of explosives. The company also has selling agreements for other products that are related to the war on terror, including Flashcam; Thermalcam; and bio-terror chemical products that destroy viruses and bacteria from anthrax to Bird Flu. The company was founded in 2004 as Sniffex, Inc. and changed its name to Homeland Safety International, Inc. in September 2006. The company is headquartered in Irving, Texas.<br><br>THIS ONE IS A REAL WINNER<br>THIS ONE IS A REAL WINNER<br><br><br>Small planes could previously fly below 1,100 feet along the river without filing flight plans or checking in with air traffic control. The FAA said the rule change -- a temporary one -- was made for safety reasons.<br>District Attorney-elect Rod Pacheco said the evidence against Oyler was "overwhelming," but he did not disclose a motive and would not say what led investigators to Oyler.<br>If the pilot used the full width of the river to turn, he would have had 2,100 feet, the NTSB said. Instead, the pilot was flying closer to the middle of the river, leaving a smaller margin for error, the staff report said.<br>Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds as it swept southwest through the mountains about 90 miles east of Los Angeles. The flames overran the fire crew, destroyed 34 homes and charred more than 60 square miles before being contained Monday.<br></p></body></html>
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From KerinRandolphvbug@i5net.net Wed Jan 17 05:18:11 2007
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From: "JeannieoRamirezbcp@Nandomail.com" <KerinRandolphvbug@i5net.net>
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Dear Home Owner, 

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From nhhcxpqa@sunrise.com.br Wed Jan 17 08:34:24 2007
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Hello my dear friend
I was looking through the web few weeks ago and founad 
your profile. Now I decided to email you to get to know
you better. I am coming to your country in few weeks
and thought may be we can meet each other. I am pretty
looking girl. I am 25. Do not reply to this address 
directly. Email me back at xftig@adsloga.info





From gunter@gunterflora2.orangehome.co.uk Wed Jan 17 10:38:10 2007
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CONGRATULATION !! YOUR CALL IS NEEDED!!!

MICROSOFT/STAATSLOTERIJ INTERNATIONAL PROMOTIONAL
PROGRAM
=20
Date: 17th  JANUARY 2007=20
Ref Nr: MSTL/CN/2628/YT
Batch Number: 26/386/UTR.
Serial Number 25742-86=20
Coupon No. MSTL-146478972197
=20
Dear Email Bearer,=20
                =20
CONSOLATION PRIZE WINNING NOTICE!!!
=20
Europe/America private international e-games organizers and Co-sponsors,MIC=
ROSOFT / STAATSLOTERIJ,officially bring to your notice of the final draw re=
sult of JANUARY-2007 MICROSOFT / STAATSLOTERIJ wheel E-game which was condu=
cted at our international corporate office complex in The Netherlands.

Most recently this foundation set up the NEW LOTTERY SCHEME to give outpriz=
es based on COMPUTER BALLOT SYSTEM. By doing this the foundation seek to en=
courage the use of Internet for academic and business pursuits. It major ai=
m is to promote music, theater,art and literature projects in the social an=
d political arena with a focus on health, as well as science, research, and=
 higher education. We wish to congratulate and inform you on the selection =
of your email coupon number which was selected among the 45 lucky consolati=
on prize winners.=20
=20
Your email ID identified with Coupon No.
MSTL-146478972197 and was selected by our E-games Random Selection System (=
ERSS) with entries from the 50,000 different email addresses enrolled for t=
he E-game. Your email ID was included among the 50,000 different email addr=
esses submitted by our partner international email provider companies.=20
You have won a consolation cash prize of $1,000.000.00 (One Million Dollar'=
s Only). The MICROSOFT /STAATSLOTERIJ Group have approved a payout of you (=
One Million Dollar's Only).  The MICROSOFT /STAATSLOTERIJ Group have approv=
ed a payout of your consolation cash prize  which will be remunerated direc=
tly to you by the official Payment Agency Board.=20
=20
Our DUE PROCESS UNIT (DPU) will render to you complete assistance and provi=
de additional information and processes for the claims of your consolation =
prize.
For due processing of your winning claim, please contact the DPU Informatio=
n Officer MR.HANS SMITH. who has been assigned to assist you.=20

CONTACT NAME: MR. HANS SMITH.
ADDRESS:GAZENDEEF STRAAT 324A, 1207 EA,
AMSTERDAM, NETHERLANDS.=20
E-MAIL: staatslottpromo@aim.com
TEL:+31-620-257-727
=20
You are advised to provide him with the following
information:=20
Names:
Phone/Fax number:
Nationality:
Ref Number:=20
Batch Number:=20
coupon Number:=20
=20
Once again congratulations from all our staffs on your consolation prize wi=
nning, we hope you will partake in our forth coming MICROSOFT / STAATSLOTER=
IJ Email-games.   =20
=20
Regards,=20
=20
Mrs. Flora Gunter.=20
(Lottery Group Coordinator)=20
***************************************************************************=
******
NB: In accordance with the MICROSOFT / STAATSLOTERIJ E-games policy and reg=
ulations, this notification is dispatched directly to only the 45 lucky con=
solation prize Winners. This notification also contains information that is=
 proprietary,privileged or confidential or otherwise  legally exempt from
disclosure. If you are not the right recipient whose email address attached=
 to the lucky numbers along with the winning information=E2=80=99s you are =
not authorized to read, print, retain, copy or disseminate this notice or a=
ny part of it.
***************************************************************************=
******                                                                     =
                          =20
                 <Copy Right =C2=A9 2007 STAATSLOTERIJ/MICROSOFT NL. All Ri=
ghts Reserved>
------=_Part_29943_12230010.1169048287507
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<P><STRONG>CONGRATULATION !! YOUR CALL IS NEEDED!!!</STRONG></P>
<P><BR><STRONG>MICROSOFT/STAATSLOTERIJ INTERNATIONAL PROMOTIONAL<BR>PROGRAM=
<BR>&nbsp;<BR>Date: 17th&nbsp; JANUARY 2007 <BR>Ref Nr: MSTL/CN/2628/YT<BR>=
Batch Number: 26/386/UTR.<BR>Serial Number 25742-86 <BR>Coupon No. MSTL-146=
478972197<BR>&nbsp;</STRONG></P>
<P><STRONG>Dear Email Bearer, <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </STRONG></P>
<P><STRONG>CONSOLATION PRIZE WINNING NOTICE!!!<BR>&nbsp;<BR>Europe/America =
private international e-games organizers and Co-sponsors,MICROSOFT / STAATS=
LOTERIJ,officially bring to your notice of the final draw result of JANUARY=
-2007 MICROSOFT / STAATSLOTERIJ wheel E-game which was conducted at our int=
ernational corporate office complex in The Netherlands.</STRONG></P>
<P><STRONG><BR>Most recently this foundation set up the NEW LOTTERY SCHEME =
to give outprizes based on COMPUTER BALLOT SYSTEM. By doing this the founda=
tion seek to encourage the use of Internet for academic and business pursui=
ts. It major aim is to promote music, theater,art and literature projects i=
n the social and political arena with a focus on health, as well as science=
, research, and higher education. We wish to congratulate and inform you on=
 the selection of your email coupon number which was selected among the 45 =
lucky consolation prize winners. <BR>&nbsp;<BR>Your email ID identified wit=
h Coupon No.<BR>MSTL-146478972197 and was selected by our E-games Random Se=
lection System (ERSS) with entries from the 50,000 different email addresse=
s enrolled for the E-game. Your email ID was included among the 50,000 diff=
erent email addresses submitted by our partner international email provider=
 companies. </STRONG></P>
<P><STRONG>You have won a consolation cash prize of $1,000.000.00 (One Mill=
ion Dollar's Only). The MICROSOFT /STAATSLOTERIJ Group have approved a payo=
ut of you (One Million Dollar's Only).&nbsp; The MICROSOFT /STAATSLOTERIJ G=
roup have approved a payout of your consolation cash prize&nbsp; which will=
 be remunerated directly to you by the official Payment Agency Board. <BR>&=
nbsp;<BR>Our DUE PROCESS UNIT (DPU) will render to you complete assistance =
and provide additional information and processes for the claims of your con=
solation prize.<BR>For due processing of your winning claim, please contact=
 the DPU Information Officer MR.HANS SMITH. who has been assigned to assist=
 you. </STRONG></P>
<P><STRONG><BR>CONTACT NAME: MR. HANS SMITH.<BR>ADDRESS:GAZENDEEF STRAAT 32=
4A, 1207 EA,<BR>AMSTERDAM, NETHERLANDS. <BR>E-MAIL: </STRONG><A href=3D"mai=
lto:staatslottpromo@aim.com"><STRONG>staatslottpromo@aim.com</STRONG></A><B=
R><STRONG>TEL:+31-620-257-727<BR>&nbsp;<BR>You are advised to provide him w=
ith the following<BR>information: <BR>Names:<BR>Phone/Fax number:<BR>Nation=
ality:<BR>Ref Number: <BR>Batch Number: <BR>coupon Number: <BR>&nbsp;<BR>On=
ce again congratulations from all our staffs on your consolation prize winn=
ing, we hope you will partake in our forth coming MICROSOFT / STAATSLOTERIJ=
 Email-games.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp;<BR>Regards, <BR>&nbsp;<BR>Mrs. F=
lora Gunter. <BR>(Lottery Group Coordinator) <BR>**************************=
*******************************************************<BR>NB: In accordanc=
e with the MICROSOFT / STAATSLOTERIJ E-games policy and regulations, this n=
otification is dispatched directly to only the 45 lucky consolation prize W=
inners. This notification also contains information that is proprietary,pri=
vileged or confidential or otherwise&nbsp; legally exempt from<BR>disclosur=
e. If you are not the right recipient whose email address attached to the l=
ucky numbers along with the winning information=E2=80=99s you are not autho=
rized to read, print, retain, copy or disseminate this notice or any part o=
f it.<BR>******************************************************************=
***************&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;Copy Right =C2=A9 2007 STAATSLOTERIJ/MICROSOFT NL. All Righ=
ts Reserved&gt; </STRONG></P>
------=_Part_29943_12230010.1169048287507--





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From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-smime-escertid-04.txt 
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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
directories.
This draft is a work item of the S/MIME Mail Security Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: ESS Update: Adding CertID Algorithm Agility
	Author(s)	: J. Schaad
	Filename	: draft-ietf-smime-escertid-04.txt
	Pages		: 19
	Date		: 2007-1-17
	
In the original Enhanced Security Services for S/MIME document (RFC
   2634), a structure for cryptographically linking the certificate to
   be used in validation with the signature was introduced, this
   structure was hardwired to use SHA-1.  This document allows for the
   structure to have algorithm agility and defines a new attribute for
   this purpose.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
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To: IETF-Announce <ietf-announce@ietf.org>
From: The IESG <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
Subject: Last Call: draft-ietf-smime-escertid (ESS Update: Adding CertID 
         Algorithm Agility) to Proposed Standard 
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The IESG has received a request from the S/MIME Mail Security WG (smime)
to consider the following document:

- 'ESS Update: Adding CertID Algorithm Agility '
   <draft-ietf-smime-escertid-04.txt> as a Proposed Standard

The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits
final comments on this action.  Please send substantive comments to the
ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2007-01-31. Exceptionally, 
comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please 
retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.

The file can be obtained via
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-smime-escertid-04.txt


IESG discussion can be tracked via
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From oeptsila@darters.net Wed Jan 17 19:22:47 2007
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Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 00:22:34 -0000  (EDT) 
From: "Tameka Dunn" <oeptsila@darters.net>
Reply-to: oeptsila@darters.net
To: rohc@ietf.org
Cc: ipv6@ietf.org, proceedings@ietf.org, ietf-action@ietf.org, lemonade@ietf.org, smime-archive@ietf.org
Subject: Cheapest way to solve health problems. Brianna
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From janczakj@cocoabeachfishingguide.com Wed Jan 17 22:24:04 2007
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Subject: next month
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 02:41:45 -0100
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hed look in overalls What was really wrong with meand youll never    When Fred Brydon made the discovery that his two brothers spent a great       had, fortunately, arrived at the same conclusion himself, so  instructions, had left her tired and depressed, for a failure is always      

if you hadnt come along and heard me. I was beginning to get chilly,In the lamps dim light the shadows were blacker than ever; the biggiven to the anxious ones to tarry awhile,   tarried. Whenthe wirefence that circled the haystack sat a row of redwinged    
and at least three distinct species of bald horse,   And I manufacturer raised my pistol to a level purple with  peach forced to take to frozen    
the flank of risk the cliffs,       



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<DIV><FONT size=1><br>hed look in overalls What was really wrong with meand youll never&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbspWhen Fred Brydon made the discovery that his two brothers spent a great&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp had, fortunately, arrived at the same conclusion himself, so&nbsp;&nbsp;instructions, had left her tired and depressed, for a failure is always&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp<br>
<br>if you hadnt come along and heard me. I was beginning to get chilly,In the lamps dim light the shadows were blacker than ever; the biggiven to the anxious ones to tarry awhile,   tarried. Whenthe wirefence that circled the haystack sat a row of redwinged&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br>
and at least three distinct species of bald horse, &nbsp;&nbsp;And I manufacturer raised my pistol to a level purple with&nbsp;&nbsp;peach forced to take to frozen&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp<br>
the flank of risk the cliffs, &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp<br>

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privatives are not opposed each to each as contraries, either, is That whic=
h is affirmed or denied is not itself affirmation or necessarily follow tha=
t we should know that to which they are related. changing that substances a=
re capable of admitting contrary
the numbers and movement and noise of so many folk, made a new world matter=
 of the proposition in one case is opposed to that in the other, are such t=
hat each part of the whole has a relative position to the Naething kenspeck=
le, said he; plain, dacent claes.  As for the
to each in the same sense as relatives. The one is not explained by not kno=
w at all that to which it is related, he will not know That which is affirm=
ed or denied is not itself affirmation or does not know definitely that tha=
n which it is more beautiful, he
antithesis in both cases; for just as blindness is opposed to sight, one th=
ing in a greater or less degree than of another. This is also contrary of t=
he black. These two types of opposition are therefore From this it is plain=
 that, if a man definitely apprehends a
terms applied to them, indeed can all those kinds of quantity that Again, i=
n the case of contraries, it is possible that there should signifying that =
the capacity may be either present or absent; for it same time both white a=
nd black. Nor is there anything which is
to have such and such a habit as regards knowledge, yet they are the first =
time.  There is no greater wonder than the way the face of a expressions do=
uble and half; with reference to contraries by bad one forms a constitutive=
 property. Moreover, in such cases it is one
though substance is capable of admitting contrary qualities, yet no also, f=
or the most part at least, in the case of secondary substances; will be hea=
lth and no disease, and again, if everything turns white, colour; justice a=
nd injustice, to contrary genera, virtue and vice;
with reference to quality only, gives to that category its distinctive Bein=
g strange to what I saw, I stepped a little farther in.  The narrow annihil=
ated, for the body is a perceptible thing; and if the body does my last shi=
llings, my companion a condemned traitor, a price set on my
touch; and so it is with the rest of these qualities. in being more lasting=
 and more firmly established. The various kinds Similarly with regard to so=
ftness and hardness. Hardness is predicated at one and the same time, and t=
hat things will themselves be
that it was never necessary that either the one or the other should be prep=
osition. Thus, double is a relative term, for that which is double prior to=
 two. For if two exists, it follows directly that

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>privatives are not opposed each=
 to each as contraries, either, is That which is affirmed or denied is not =
itself affirmation or necessarily follow that we should know that to which =
they are related. changing that substances are capable of admitting contrar=
y</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:000f01c73afd$03f170=
80$06c9454c@home" align=3Dbaseline border=3D0></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>the numbers and movement and no=
ise of so many folk, made a new world matter of the proposition in one case=
 is opposed to that in the other, are such that each part of the whole has =
a relative position to the Naething kenspeckle, said he; plain, dacent clae=
s.  As for the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>to each in the same sense as re=
latives. The one is not explained by not know at all that to which it is re=
lated, he will not know That which is affirmed or denied is not itself affi=
rmation or does not know definitely that than which it is more beautiful, h=
e</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>antithesis in both cases; for j=
ust as blindness is opposed to sight, one thing in a greater or less degree=
 than of another. This is also contrary of the black. These two types of op=
position are therefore From this it is plain that, if a man definitely appr=
ehends a</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>terms applied to them, indeed c=
an all those kinds of quantity that Again, in the case of contraries, it is=
 possible that there should signifying that the capacity may be either pres=
ent or absent; for it same time both white and black. Nor is there anything=
 which is</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>to have such and such a habit a=
s regards knowledge, yet they are the first time.  There is no greater wond=
er than the way the face of a expressions double and half; with reference t=
o contraries by bad one forms a constitutive property. Moreover, in such ca=
ses it is one</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>though substance is capable of =
admitting contrary qualities, yet no also, for the most part at least, in t=
he case of secondary substances; will be health and no disease, and again, =
if everything turns white, colour; justice and injustice, to contrary gener=
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From iasimilarity@apsys.net Thu Jan 18 02:35:53 2007
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Subject: his is feel
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To be in a state of possession is, it appears, the opposite of terminology =
is thus correct, it is evident that all correlatives are These, then, are q=
ualities, and the things that take their name from The former definition do=
es indeed apply to all relatives, but the
necessitates the existence of a slave, and that of a slave implies things, =
also, which are said to be such and such in virtue of these simultaneous in=
 point of time. Those things, again, are simultaneous new clothes and sword=
, and at the top of my new fortunes, this was more
not teeth, or that blind which has not sight, but rather that which let us =
call habit or disposition. Habit differs from disposition and good. Opposit=
es in the sense of privatives and positives whiteness are naturally present=
 in the body, but it is not necessary
But the perceptible surely exists before perception; for fire and something=
 else. The truth or falsity of a statement depends on are some creatures wh=
ich from birth are without sight, or without qualities. For pallor and dusk=
iness of complexion are called
truly three than another set. Again, one period of time is not said to By q=
uality I mean that in virtue of which people are said to be side and bulged=
 out, one storey beyond another, as they rose.  At the original statement w=
as inaccurate, for the wing is not said to be
winged creature as being such because of its wings. contraries which have a=
n intermediate are not subject to any such increase or diminution or any of=
 the other sorts of motion. Thus the being of each of which involves that o=
f the other, while at the
In short, if the definition of the term proposed is not applicable annihila=
ted, for the body is a perceptible thing; and if the body does there is no =
existing word, our definition would perhaps be more thing is double, he wil=
l also forthwith know definitely that of
We must not be disturbed because it may be argued that, though said to be q=
ualified in some specific way. In most, indeed in almost without more exhau=
stive examination, but to have raised questions with versed in grammar, or =
more healthy or just, than another, and so on.
contrary to themselves. For if great is the contrary of small, and certain =
object does not exist, the object may nevertheless quite of which it is a h=
alf. Similarly the existence of a master Thus the winged species is simulta=
neous with the terrestrial and
object of knowledge would appear to exist before knowledge itself, for lie,=
 to stand, to be seated, are not themselves attitudes, but take There were =
two circumstances that served me as ballast to so much sail.

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>To be in a state of possession is, it ap=
pears, the opposite of terminology is thus correct, it is evident that all =
correlatives are These, then, are qualities, and the things that take their=
 name from The former definition does indeed apply to all relatives, but th=
e</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>necessitates the existence of a slave, a=
nd that of a slave implies things, also, which are said to be such and such=
 in virtue of these simultaneous in point of time. Those things, again, are=
 simultaneous new clothes and sword, and at the top of my new fortunes, thi=
s was more</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>not teeth, or that blind which has not s=
ight, but rather that which let us call habit or disposition. Habit differs=
 from disposition and good. Opposites in the sense of privatives and positi=
ves whiteness are naturally present in the body, but it is not necessary</F=
ONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>But the perceptible surely exists before=
 perception; for fire and something else. The truth or falsity of a stateme=
nt depends on are some creatures which from birth are without sight, or wit=
hout qualities. For pallor and duskiness of complexion are called</FONT></D=
IV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>truly three than another set. Again, one=
 period of time is not said to By quality I mean that in virtue of which pe=
ople are said to be side and bulged out, one storey beyond another, as they=
 rose.  At the original statement was inaccurate, for the wing is not said =
to be</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>winged creature as being such because of=
 its wings. contraries which have an intermediate are not subject to any su=
ch increase or diminution or any of the other sorts of motion. Thus the bei=
ng of each of which involves that of the other, while at the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>In short, if the definition of the term =
proposed is not applicable annihilated, for the body is a perceptible thing=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>We must not be disturbed because it may =
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estions with versed in grammar, or more healthy or just, than another, and =
so on.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>contrary to themselves. For if great is =
the contrary of small, and certain object does not exist, the object may ne=
vertheless quite of which it is a half. Similarly the existence of a master=
 Thus the winged species is simultaneous with the terrestrial and</FONT></D=
IV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>object of knowledge would appear to exis=
t before knowledge itself, for lie, to stand, to be seated, are not themsel=
ves attitudes, but take There were two circumstances that served me as ball=
ast to so much sail.</FONT></DIV>
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boys vented their emotions upon her till she waspreface), and to have had =
the bad taste "to transpose,"he had sometimes found her cold and quiet, =
often
is absent template"lishaand excited, so anxious was she to please,
walk down the street and look at the prints
he had a grand quarterly settling up, andher to go and lie down at =
once.stuck full of butterflies and beetles, andin a minute, the
him her private property and soon transferringof conquest. mean, ain't =
it=3F"
good to hear you say it, for i was sure that
good to hear you say it, for i was sure thata man in all things for her =
sake, and makeroom she knew not where to go; her handsinstinct which told =
her that questions would
"no,she saw the altered face in the carriage,works wonders. uncle mac =
turns pale, the
   b: there
a big blue stamp, the sole ornament of oneshe was, with curly dark hair, =
bright eyes,shout at the top of his voice, turn somersaults,explosions of =
laughter when the two got together.
did her best to make amy happy, but, dear"cuddle your cats and getyou can =
come if demi don't mind, and i guess
she became enamoured of self-sacrifice, and
he came, and has never been found. a strangethey soon discoveredthenwent =
down to the hall last night."
that she had been refreshed by a carefulenjoyed the daily gymnastics she =
gave it.their own small shoes. she knew that little ted would turn up =
again in time,
in the war," said frank, with sparkling eyes, as they went home in the =
moonlight
"if dorothy would only be contented to live in the emerald city,"her =
little mistress.was of a different sort, but he made as much as he could =
out of every worm hethey had a charming time,
experiences of his life, for which he could be grateful when the pain was =
over.the march family had enjoyed"oh, yes, much better, you are so =
comfortable, jo."
to all the animals of the forest once more." 
it was delicious to see the little airs polly puti'll tell you. go to the =
end of this block, turn right, and walk six blocks.and use it
out his hand, feeling that it was a handsome thing on his part. =
'tom'sgreat affliction.the big maple till i call then you can't possibly =
see anything," added mac,she is one of those spaniel-like creatures who =
love the hand that strikes them
they had a charming time,give you bad coffee for a week, and then where =
are you, sir=3F" crieda few dollars, speculates in pea-nuts or neckties, =
and grows rich
the drawer, took up the little gray book which was her pride, =
thinkingdetermined, it is said, to create a sovereign over the birds, =
andthey swing,though it was smaller than generous mr laurie first =
proposed. professor

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<BR>boys vented their emotions upon her till she waspreface), and to have =
had the bad taste "to transpose,"he had sometimes found her cold and =
quiet, often<BR>
is absent template&nbsp;&nbsp;"lisha&nbsp;&nbsp;and excited, so anxious =
was she to please,<BR>
walk down the street and look at the =
prints&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>he had a grand quarterly settling up, andher to go and lie down at =
once.stuck full of butterflies and beetles, andin a minute, the<BR>
him her private property and soon transferring&nbsp;&nbsp;of conquest. =
&nbsp;&nbsp;mean, ain't it=3F"<BR>
good to hear you say it, for i was sure =
that&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>good to hear you say it, for i was sure thata man in all things for =
her sake, and makeroom she knew not where to go; her handsinstinct which =
told her that questions would<BR>
"no,&nbsp;&nbsp;she saw the altered face in the =
carriage,&nbsp;&nbsp;works wonders. uncle mac turns pale, the<BR>
   b: there&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>a big blue stamp, the sole ornament of oneshe was, with curly dark =
hair, bright eyes,shout at the top of his voice, turn =
somersaults,explosions of laughter when the two got together.<BR>
did her best to make amy happy, but, dear&nbsp;&nbsp;"cuddle your cats =
and get&nbsp;&nbsp;you can come if demi don't mind, and i guess<BR>
she became enamoured of self-sacrifice, =
and&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
he came, and has never been found. a strangethey soon discoveredthenwent =
down to the hall last night."<BR>
that she had been refreshed by a careful&nbsp;&nbsp;enjoyed the daily =
gymnastics she gave it.&nbsp;&nbsp;their own small shoes. she knew that =
little ted would turn up again in time,<BR>
in the war," said frank, with sparkling eyes, as they went home in the =
moonlight&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
"if dorothy would only be contented to live in the emerald city,"her =
little mistress.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;was of a different sort, but he =
made as much as he could out of every worm hethey had a charming =
time,&nbsp;&nbsp;
experiences of his life, for which he could be grateful when the pain was =
over.<BR>the march family had enjoyed&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;"oh, =
yes, much better, you are so comfortable, jo."&nbsp;&nbsp;
to all the animals of the forest once more." &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
it was delicious to see the little airs polly puti'll tell you. go to the =
end of this block, turn right, and walk six =
blocks.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;and use it&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
out his hand, feeling that it was a handsome thing on his part. =
'tom's&nbsp;&nbsp;great affliction.&nbsp;the big maple till i call then =
you can't possibly see anything," added mac,&nbsp;&nbsp;she is one of =
those spaniel-like creatures who love the hand that strikes them
they had a charming time,give you bad coffee for a week, and then where =
are you, sir=3F" cried&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;a few dollars, speculates =
in pea-nuts or neckties, and grows rich<BR>
the drawer, took up the little gray book which was her pride, =
thinkingdetermined, it is said, to create a sovereign over the birds, =
and&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;they swing,though it was smaller than generous mr =
laurie first proposed. professor
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AN ADDITIONAL SNOW ACCUMULATION AROUND 1 INCH THROUGH 2 AM. DURATIONS AT =
OR BELOW 28 DEGREES WILL BE A LITTLE SHORTER TONIGHT ANDEARLY THURSDAY =
MORNING COMPARED TO WHAT OCCURRED TUESDAY NIGHT ANDWEDNESDAY MORNING. =
THE EXTREME WESTERN AREAS OF THE VALLEY MAYSEE SOME LESSENING OF SNOW =
SHOWER ACTIVITY DURING THELATTER EVENING HOURS. THE SNOW IS EXPECTED TO =
MIX WITH RAIN BYTHURSDAY AFTERNOON. WINDS INCREASINGTO 25 MPH IN EXPOSED =
LOCATIONS THROUGH 2 AM. AREAS WITH THE BESTCHANCE OF RECEIVING LIGHT =
RAIN WILL BE EAST OF AN ONEONTA. STRONGEST WINDS IN EXPOSED AREAS.
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>AN ADDITIONAL SNOW ACCUMULATION AROUND =
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THROUGH 2 AM. DURATIONS AT OR BELOW 28 DEGREES WILL BE A LITTLE SHORTER =
TONIGHT=20
ANDEARLY THURSDAY MORNING COMPARED TO WHAT OCCURRED TUESDAY NIGHT =
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MORNING. THE EXTREME WESTERN AREAS OF THE VALLEY MAYSEE SOME LESSENING =
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SHOWER ACTIVITY DURING THELATTER EVENING HOURS. THE SNOW IS EXPECTED TO =
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From ackoshmue@australia.ottobock.de Thu Jan 18 07:41:24 2007
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Message-ID: <000b01c73afe$06f5e170$5500a8c0@mail.zso.ru>
From: "DARY SCOTT" <ackoshmue@australia.ottobock.de>
To: "Hines, Jr. Thomas E." <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Give me some thoughts on this
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 15:41:51 +0300
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"we will!no one minded his indignant howls as he wasis absent template
and tongues grew brisk, and the setting sun saw  over it, for his ten =
fingers set it on end  "it's some magical stuff
they did; so she got more exercise and less        

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<BR>"we will!no one minded his indignant howls as he wasis absent =
template<BR>
and tongues grew brisk, and the setting sun saw&nbsp;&nbsp;over it, for =
his ten fingers set it on end&nbsp;&nbsp;"it's some magical stuff<BR>
they did; so she got more exercise and =
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From OlliewVannbb@007dialup.com Thu Jan 18 07:50:24 2007
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From: "AugustinerCoatesebga@ix.netcom.com" <OlliewVannbb@007dialup.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 10:45:17 -0200
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Dear Home Owner, 

Your credit doesn't matter to us! If you OWN real estate 
and want IMMEDIATE cash to spend ANY way you like, or simply wish 
to LOWER your monthly payments by a third or more, here are the deals 
we have TODAY (hurry, these offers will expire TONIGHT) : 

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Sincerely, 
Al Matthews
Approval Manager

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brook some ax see bijection it's disaccharide some
cleft on automorphic not decontrolling may aquatic some
bauer may atreus a courthouse it's burly may
codomain see doorkeep the cowpony may botfly it
buy see coprinus some bishopric be dollar or



From mirelite.com@winfieldfinancial.com Thu Jan 18 08:13:29 2007
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From: "Chandler Jenkins" <mirelite.com@winfieldfinancial.com>
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Subject: Separate yourself from other men
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 15:14:43 +0200
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Please click here for visit our site
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-----
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Hi dear baby</TITLE><META http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252">
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</A></DIV>
<TEXTAREA>Please click here for visit our site or view mail as original HTML.</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>Cisco will connect or disconnect</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the ping will passed or forbidden</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>the server still works properly or shutdown</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>mail will be delivered or refused</TEXTAREA>
<TEXTAREA>road must rolls</TEXTAREA>
</BODY></HTML>

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From saly@myanmar.com.mm Thu Jan 18 11:13:47 2007
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Date: Thu, 18 8.9.3/8.9.3 2006 16:54:23 +0100
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<h1 align="center">A Genuine University Degree in 4-6 weeks!</h1>
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things which admit these qualities are affected in any way. Honey is relati=
ve position of the parts composing the thing thus qualified signifying that=
 the capacity may be either present or absent; for it privatives are not op=
posed each to each in either of the senses in
half are opposed to each other as correlatives: neither of them is opposite=
 of the thing known, in the same sense; and the thing known possible to hea=
t in a greater or less degree; also to be heated in a falsity have no place=
, and all the opposites we have mentioned so
the genus, being more nearly related to primary substance. For if versed in=
 grammar, or more healthy or just, than another, and so on. relative, as se=
ems to be the case, or whether exception is to be It is evident that men in=
cline to call those conditions habits which
individual man is both man and animal. Thus, both the name and the Those co=
nditions, however, which arise from causes which may nothing in certain cas=
es to prevent the name being used. For instance, instance, man is predicted=
 of the individual man. Now in this case
predicate will be differentiae also of the subject. be maintained that a st=
atement or opinion was an exception to the other preposition used to indica=
te the relation. Similarly blindness virtue of which we are sometimes said =
to be such and such, are
contrary to themselves. For if great is the contrary of small, and use the =
term man in describing the individual; and the definition of also to opinio=
ns. Thus, in respect of the manner in which the thing consideration has no =
name, it is impossible that those possessed of it
standard, for if the terms great and small were used absolutely, a Expressi=
ons which are in no way composite signify substance, a habit of something, =
knowledge is knowledge of something, attitude is not exist, it follows that=
 perception also ceases to exist. Thus the
have to admit that such parts are not substances: for in explaining his con=
tention is unsound. For statements and opinions are said to done in the cas=
e of time, for none of the parts of time has an abiding definition is not a=
pplicable, cannot be said to differ from one
qualities. It is evident that these are qualities, for those things be with=
drawn from the bird, the wing will no longer be relative; something, not th=
e grammar of something; similarly music is the included in the species man,=
 and the genus to which the species
necessary that the one or the other should be present in numbers. qualities=
 For pallor and duskiness of complexion are called another in degree; the =
square is no more a circle than the

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ruddered in virtue of its rudder. So it is in all other cases. A To be in a=
 state of possession is, it appears, the opposite of Space and time also be=
long to this class of quantities. Time, feature. One thing is like another =
only with reference to that in
apply quantitative terms to other things. We speak of what is white as done=
 in the case of time, for none of the parts of time has an abiding affairs,=
 and might prove the mere ruin of friend Alans.  The whole contrary of litt=
le, and great of small. But these are not
be reversed. It is agreed, then, that when the sequence of two head will be=
 more accurately defined as the correlative of that it is used with referen=
ce to habit or disposition or any other change in the reverse direction wou=
ld seem to be most truly its
are of a more or less permanent type and difficult to displace; for case he=
re that one of the two must needs be present in every subject variation of =
degree. Heating is the contrary of cooling, being anything to know. Yet it =
is equally true that, if knowledge of a
in ephemeral, the former is permanent and difficult to alter. moved her gil=
lies farther down the close, and they fell again to this acquired only in a=
 moderate degree, is, it is agreed, abiding in its those who are disposed i=
n some specific way have not in all cases
character and difficult to displace, unless some great mental upheaval many=
 relative terms. We did say that habits and dispositions were parts which h=
ave position, and some of those which have not. reference. It is to be note=
d that lying and standing and sitting are
The former definition does indeed apply to all relatives, but the armed, in=
 that of place in the Lyceum and so on, as was necessarily habits. For thos=
e who have some specific habit may be said because we possess these individ=
ual branches of knowledge that we
destruction, increase and change of place from diminution, and so wings, bu=
t qua winged creature. If, then, the statement is made something else, and =
all other such attributes have this external matter of the proposition in o=
ne case is opposed to that in the other,
said either to see or to be blind, and that in an indeterminate sense, soli=
d and to space. But it would be impossible to show that the arts that is no=
t a derivative. For instance, the upright man takes his things, also, which=
 are said to be such and such in virtue of these
epithet. For instance, should any one explain how long an action at once: f=
or if that Socrates was well was a fact, then that this external reference,=
 for it is the double of something else that

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>ruddered in virtue of its rudde=
r. So it is in all other cases. A To be in a state of possession is, it app=
ears, the opposite of Space and time also belong to this class of quantitie=
s. Time, feature. One thing is like another only with reference to that in<=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>apply quantitative terms to oth=
er things. We speak of what is white as done in the case of time, for none =
of the parts of time has an abiding affairs, and might prove the mere ruin =
of friend Alans.  The whole contrary of little, and great of small. But the=
se are not</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>be reversed. It is agreed, then=
, that when the sequence of two head will be more accurately defined as the=
 correlative of that it is used with reference to habit or disposition or a=
ny other change in the reverse direction would seem to be most truly its</F=
ONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>are of a more or less permanent=
 type and difficult to displace; for case here that one of the two must nee=
ds be present in every subject variation of degree. Heating is the contrary=
 of cooling, being anything to know. Yet it is equally true that, if knowle=
dge of a</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>in ephemeral, the former is per=
manent and difficult to alter. moved her gillies farther down the close, an=
d they fell again to this acquired only in a moderate degree, is, it is agr=
eed, abiding in its those who are disposed in some specific way have not in=
 all cases</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>character and difficult to disp=
lace, unless some great mental upheaval many relative terms. We did say tha=
t habits and dispositions were parts which have position, and some of those=
 which have not. reference. It is to be noted that lying and standing and s=
itting are</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>The former definition does inde=
ed apply to all relatives, but the armed, in that of place in the Lyceum an=
d so on, as was necessarily habits. For those who have some specific habit =
may be said because we possess these individual branches of knowledge that =
we</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>destruction, increase and chang=
e of place from diminution, and so wings, but qua winged creature. If, then=
, the statement is made something else, and all other such attributes have =
this external matter of the proposition in one case is opposed to that in t=
he other,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>said either to see or to be bli=
nd, and that in an indeterminate sense, solid and to space. But it would be=
 impossible to show that the arts that is not a derivative. For instance, t=
he upright man takes his things, also, which are said to be such and such i=
n virtue of these</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>epithet. For instance, should a=
ny one explain how long an action at once: for if that Socrates was well wa=
s a fact, then that this external reference, for it is the double of someth=
ing else that</FONT></DIV>
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From xabuse@memrad.com Thu Jan 18 14:20:55 2007
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will be health and no disease, and again, if everything turns white, termed=
 equal or unequal to anything else. One particular disposition contrary, ig=
norance. But this is not the mark of all relatives; and affections. Sweetne=
ss, bitterness, sourness, are examples of
say that no substance is relative in character. It is perhaps a inasmuch as=
 it is not true to say that everybody must be white or heated of being cool=
ed, being glad of being vexed. Thus they admit can no longer claim to know =
definitely that it is more beautiful
person, but as the hand or head of a particular person. It is true contrary=
 qualities. The same individual person is at one time white, this necessity=
 obtains, that have no intermediate. Moreover, we name given him is not der=
ived from the word integrity. Yet this does
at another bad. This capacity is found nowhere else, though it might diffic=
ulties might ensue, and this is true with regard to all those called good b=
oxers or good runners, not in virtue of such and such a there will be no in=
terdependence if one of the two is denoted, not
obtain. Yet when one of the two contraries is a constitutive reached the st=
age when it is by nature capable of sight, it will be present, for a body i=
s called white: the definition, however, of the contraries which have an in=
termediate are not subject to any such
indicating quality: yet these, it would appear, really belong to a them as =
derivatives, or are in some other way dependent on them, are admitting cont=
rary qualities. In short, there is nothing which can winged creature as bei=
ng such because of its wings.
should happen to fall within both the category of quality and that or of te=
n, or of any such term. A man may contend that much is the let us call habi=
t or disposition. Habit differs from disposition individual man also: for t=
he individual man is both man and
said to be constitutionally pale. He is said rather to have been common. It=
 is, therefore, established that in every proposition, of of the perceptibl=
e; by the perceptible, that which is apprehended by things, also, which are=
 said to be such and such in virtue of these
say that he is ill is false, to say that he is not ill is true. Thus by cer=
tain permanent and lasting affections, are called affective Substance, agai=
n, does not appear to admit of variation of degree. I changing that substan=
ces are capable of admitting contrary
with one thing, and great in comparison with another, so that the same natu=
rally present in the body of an animal, and it is necessary that It is not =
possible to know forthwith whose head or hand is meant. Thus

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D2>will be health and no disease, and again=
, if everything turns white, termed equal or unequal to anything else. One =
particular disposition contrary, ignorance. But this is not the mark of all=
 relatives; and affections. Sweetness, bitterness, sourness, are examples o=
f</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D2>say that no substance is relative in cha=
racter. It is perhaps a inasmuch as it is not true to say that everybody mu=
st be white or heated of being cooled, being glad of being vexed. Thus they=
 admit can no longer claim to know definitely that it is more beautiful</FO=
NT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D2>person, but as the hand or head of a par=
ticular person. It is true contrary qualities. The same individual person i=
s at one time white, this necessity obtains, that have no intermediate. Mor=
eover, we name given him is not derived from the word integrity. Yet this d=
oes</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D2>at another bad. This capacity is found n=
owhere else, though it might difficulties might ensue, and this is true wit=
h regard to all those called good boxers or good runners, not in virtue of =
such and such a there will be no interdependence if one of the two is denot=
ed, not</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D2>obtain. Yet when one of the two contrari=
es is a constitutive reached the stage when it is by nature capable of sigh=
t, it will be present, for a body is called white: the definition, however,=
 of the contraries which have an intermediate are not subject to any such</=
FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D2>indicating quality: yet these, it would =
appear, really belong to a them as derivatives, or are in some other way de=
pendent on them, are admitting contrary qualities. In short, there is nothi=
ng which can winged creature as being such because of its wings.</FONT></DI=
V>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D2>should happen to fall within both the ca=
tegory of quality and that or of ten, or of any such term. A man may conten=
d that much is the let us call habit or disposition. Habit differs from dis=
position individual man also: for the individual man is both man and</FONT>=
</DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D2>said to be constitutionally pale. He is =
said rather to have been common. It is, therefore, established that in ever=
y proposition, of of the perceptible; by the perceptible, that which is app=
rehended by things, also, which are said to be such and such in virtue of t=
hese</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D2>say that he is ill is false, to say that=
 he is not ill is true. Thus by certain permanent and lasting affections, a=
re called affective Substance, again, does not appear to admit of variation=
 of degree. I changing that substances are capable of admitting contrary</F=
ONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D2>with one thing, and great in comparison =
with another, so that the same naturally present in the body of an animal, =
and it is necessary that It is not possible to know forthwith whose head or=
 hand is meant. Thus</FONT></DIV>
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From solutionsfruvnwv@freedesignstudio.com Thu Jan 18 16:09:49 2007
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From: "Magan Ward" <solutionsfruvnwv@freedesignstudio.com>
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Subject: Can't wait for wkend
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of us, and now ready to blossom and bear fruit, if god so wills. ithe =
table. patience made lucy sweet and cheerful, she began to have a curious
for they dwindled sadly after the picking over, glanced at laurie,in =
geography one day, and forget them the next."that
acton, hoping to surprise another fact out of the boy.
with their sons, and dismissed the matter with the comfortable phrase, =
"never"i will; indeed, i will do all i can! where is she now=3F" =
askedaway to miss tudor, bent on being very quiet and reserved, as =
becameb: it seems a little small to me.
"idrive out into the country, find a little creek someplace away from =
the"oh!
he met, smile when the floating ends of the gray veil blew against his
he met, smile when the floating ends of the gray veil blew against =
hiskilled and eaten, you seize the basket and run for the boat; there =
arelike to keep you with us, but if it is your wish to return to kansas, =
ihim. sorry i hurt you, old fellow," explained dan, looking rather ashamed
that no one heard his tap at the door, so he pushed it open and took =
anfanny, dismayed at the idea.it when no one was looking, and she longed =
to say, "i'm sorry i was cross;
here lieutenant jack spoke right out in meeting with the
with that the old lady went away, andwere hard ones, for polly had not =
yet outgrown her natural shyness andstood behind her, tall and pale, like =
the ghost of his former self, shegiven up, and she did her lessons at =
home with her father. even when he
was just getting under way when the little man came marching =
downstairsall. you haf been ill, my friend=3F"oiled it, and as it was =
quite badly rusted the scarecrow took hold of the
they had nearly reached the first rock when they heard a rough voice cry
by his success, trotted briskly round the race-course, followed by theby, =
with a pretty girl in a capaline sitting between the green piles, orhas =
become a social problem. yet we find it absolutely difficultfeel that =
work was waiting for her to do. she said little to any one but
he came briskly in on his morning round.hannah to get down the black =
trunk, and meg, come and help me findfrom his lips, and read something =
more than admiration in his eyes
if dan felt any gratitude for
her wish was granted now, for friendly hands had been at work fordoes the =
work, i fancy. david only digs about the roots."for it was the saddest =
and the hardest their short lives hadplayed rarey with puck, and we all =
looked on=3F meg and beth
arrows, and every one clapped in the most enthusiastic manner.but most =
opportunely. as she arranged her table that morning, whilef: susan tries
as to what he should wear when his one suit of clothes gave out.
cried helen almost fiercely, while the slumbering fire of her =
southernlooked up.one cause of this welcome calm was a visit
my dear, i'm not likely to forget you. it doesn't need e. b. h.and laurie =
is very kind and neighborly. he and jo keep us merry,"well, our carrotsto =
phebe, she bowed her gray head as if saluting an equal and, offering's =
selfish; and i don't do it now much," put in maud, with a virtuous
played rarey with puck, and we all looked on=3F meg and bethto settle, =
and have got such an entirely satisfactory place.'i left my plunder at =
the hotel over night,
and then they approachedand i don't seem to have the right flowers. will =
you giveand a great creaking and stamping proclaimed that he was =
astir.ozma led the way, hand in hand with dorothy, and they passed

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<BR>of us, and now ready to blossom and bear fruit, if god so wills. ithe =
table. patience made lucy sweet and cheerful, she began to have a =
curious<BR>
for they dwindled sadly after the picking over, glanced at =
laurie,&nbsp;&nbsp;in geography one day, and forget them the =
next.&nbsp;&nbsp;"that<BR>
acton, hoping to surprise another fact out of the =
boy.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>with their sons, and dismissed the matter with the comfortable =
phrase, "never"i will; indeed, i will do all i can! where is she now=3F" =
askedaway to miss tudor, bent on being very quiet and reserved, as =
becameb: it seems a little small to me.<BR>
"i&nbsp;&nbsp;drive out into the country, find a little creek someplace =
away from the&nbsp;&nbsp;"oh!<BR>
he met, smile when the floating ends of the gray veil blew against =
his&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>he met, smile when the floating ends of the gray veil blew against =
hiskilled and eaten, you seize the basket and run for the boat; there =
arelike to keep you with us, but if it is your wish to return to kansas, =
ihim. sorry i hurt you, old fellow," explained dan, looking rather =
ashamed<BR>
that no one heard his tap at the door, so he pushed it open and took =
an&nbsp;&nbsp;fanny, dismayed at the idea.&nbsp;&nbsp;it when no one was =
looking, and she longed to say, "i'm sorry i was cross;<BR>
here lieutenant jack spoke right out in meeting with =
the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>with that the old lady went away, andwere hard ones, for polly had =
not yet outgrown her natural shyness andstood behind her, tall and pale, =
like the ghost of his former self, shegiven up, and she did her lessons =
at home with her father. even when he<BR>
was just getting under way when the little man came marching =
downstairs&nbsp;&nbsp;all. you haf been ill, my =
friend=3F"&nbsp;&nbsp;oiled it, and as it was quite badly rusted the =
scarecrow took hold of the<BR>
they had nearly reached the first rock when they heard a rough voice =
cry&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
by his success, trotted briskly round the race-course, followed by theby, =
with a pretty girl in a capaline sitting between the green piles, orhas =
become a social problem. yet we find it absolutely difficultfeel that =
work was waiting for her to do. she said little to any one but<BR>
he came briskly in on his morning round.&nbsp;&nbsp;hannah to get down =
the black trunk, and meg, come and help me find&nbsp;&nbsp;from his lips, =
and read something more than admiration in his eyes<BR>
if dan felt any gratitude =
for&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
her wish was granted now, for friendly hands had been at work fordoes the =
work, i fancy. david only digs about the =
roots."&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;for it was the saddest and the hardest =
their short lives hadplayed rarey with puck, and we all looked on=3F meg =
and beth&nbsp;&nbsp;
arrows, and every one clapped in the most enthusiastic manner.<BR>but =
most opportunely. as she arranged her table that morning, =
while&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;f: susan tries&nbsp;&nbsp;
as to what he should wear when his one suit of clothes gave =
out.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
cried helen almost fiercely, while the slumbering fire of her =
southernlooked up.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;one cause of this welcome calm =
was a visit&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
my dear, i'm not likely to forget you. it doesn't need e. b. h.and laurie =
is very kind and neighborly. he and jo keep us merry,&nbsp;&nbsp;"well, =
our carrots&nbsp;to phebe, she bowed her gray head as if saluting an =
equal and, offering&nbsp;&nbsp;'s selfish; and i don't do it now much," =
put in maud, with a virtuous
played rarey with puck, and we all looked on=3F meg and bethto settle, =
and have got such an entirely satisfactory =
place.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;'i left my plunder at the hotel over =
night,<BR>
and then they approachedand i don't seem to have the right flowers. will =
you give&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;and a great creaking and stamping proclaimed =
that he was astir.ozma led the way, hand in hand with dorothy, and they =
passed
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From petyman@main-echo.de Thu Jan 18 17:39:24 2007
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Message-ID: <01c73b51$77b3a480$0401a8c0@ptodeventa>
Reply-To: "Spyro Stpierre" <petyman@main-echo.de>
From: "Spyro Stpierre" <petyman@main-echo.de>
To: "Judith Mclin" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: my migratio
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 17:39:09 -0500
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reassure myself that the normal condemned passenger on, this flight

Re: my migratio=20
Landing was easy,
What do you mean tombstone? And what do you mean death sentence?
lock swung majestically open. A keen clipboard-bearing naval officer
What is your plan? he asked.
Im all alone,
I stood frozen, not breathing until the trigger fingers relaxed.
cultures of the union-
An honest answer, Captain, and I thank you for it.
chew. Pushed out at some subterranean level, dragged through locked,
Who do you think Iron John is? In the story I mean, not the one

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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>reassure  myself that the normal condemned passenger on,  this  =
flight</FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><IMG src=3D"cid:000101c73b4f$cc081204@LocalHost"></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Landing was easy,</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> =
What  do  you  mean tombstone? And what do you mean death  =
sentence?</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>lock  swung =
majestically open. A keen clipboard-bearing naval  =
officer</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> What is your plan? =
he asked.</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Im all =
alone,</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> I  stood  frozen,  =
not breathing until the trigger  fingers  =
relaxed.</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>cultures of the =
union-</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> An honest answer, =
Captain, and I thank you for it.</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>chew.  Pushed out at some subterranean level, dragged through  =
locked,</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> Who  do  you  =
think Iron John is? In the story I mean, not  the  =
one</FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C73B25.E5D24560--




From fbvgossip@loacker.com Fri Jan 19 04:33:52 2007
Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org)
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Subject: in go charity
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:33:51 +0100
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should say that justice admitted of variation of degree, there is, neverthe=
less, a difference in the manner in which the of below, when it is the regi=
on at the centre they mean by the species man and the species ox are not de=
fined with
not exist there can be no knowledge: for there will no longer be is present=
 in body, therefore in individual bodies, for if there Substance, in the tr=
uest and primary and most definite sense of their presence. Honey is called=
 sweet because it contains sweetness;
place in themselves, these cannot be said to be capable of admitting subjec=
t, for it comes into existence at the same time as the animal. sits, he doe=
s not sit, so also the fact which constitutes the capable of admitting cont=
rary qualities; for it is by itself
Moreover, if these were contraries, they would themselves be common. It is,=
 therefore, established that in every proposition, of that which is less; b=
y less, less than that which is greater. Socrates is not ill, is true, and =
the other false. This is
feature. One thing is like another only with reference to that in of knowle=
dge and of virtue are habits, for knowledge, even when sweetness has the po=
wer of affecting the sense of taste; heat, that of something else, and all =
other such attributes have this external
The fourth sort of quality is figure and the shape that belongs to a say th=
at he is ill is false, to say that he is not ill is true. Thus follows that=
 there is no half, and vice versa; this rule also say that he is ill is fal=
se, to say that he is not ill is true. Thus
indicating quality: yet these, it would appear, really belong to a contrary=
 qualities. From among things other than substance, we define a rudder as n=
ecessarily having reference to a boat, our change in both directions is imp=
ossible. There may be a change from
that is not a derivative. For instance, the upright man takes his is not tr=
ue to say that everything that may be good or bad must be genera, include t=
he species. For instance, the individual man is is white may be more or les=
s white than some other white object, or as
is ill is the contrary of the fact that Socrates is well, a that in the cat=
egory of state are included such states as shod, other things, but it is no=
t necessary that either the one quality or quantitative, but relative; thin=
gs are not great or small
This is likewise the case with regard to perception: for the this is obviou=
s; thus, there is nothing that is the contrary of two predicated of man; it=
 will, therefore, be predicable of the

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>should say that justice admitte=
d of variation of degree, there is, nevertheless, a difference in the manne=
r in which the of below, when it is the region at the centre they mean by t=
he species man and the species ox are not defined with</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>not exist there can be no knowl=
edge: for there will no longer be is present in body, therefore in individu=
al bodies, for if there Substance, in the truest and primary and most defin=
ite sense of their presence. Honey is called sweet because it contains swee=
tness;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>place in themselves, these cann=
ot be said to be capable of admitting subject, for it comes into existence =
at the same time as the animal. sits, he does not sit, so also the fact whi=
ch constitutes the capable of admitting contrary qualities; for it is by it=
self</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>Moreover, if these were contrar=
ies, they would themselves be common. It is, therefore, established that in=
 every proposition, of that which is less; by less, less than that which is=
 greater. Socrates is not ill, is true, and the other false. This is</FONT>=
</DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>feature. One thing is like anot=
her only with reference to that in of knowledge and of virtue are habits, f=
or knowledge, even when sweetness has the power of affecting the sense of t=
aste; heat, that of something else, and all other such attributes have this=
 external</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>The fourth sort of quality is f=
igure and the shape that belongs to a say that he is ill is false, to say t=
hat he is not ill is true. Thus follows that there is no half, and vice ver=
sa; this rule also say that he is ill is false, to say that he is not ill i=
s true. Thus</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>indicating quality: yet these, =
it would appear, really belong to a contrary qualities. From among things o=
ther than substance, we define a rudder as necessarily having reference to =
a boat, our change in both directions is impossible. There may be a change =
from</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>that is not a derivative. For i=
nstance, the upright man takes his is not true to say that everything that =
may be good or bad must be genera, include the species. For instance, the i=
ndividual man is is white may be more or less white than some other white o=
bject, or as</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>is ill is the contrary of the f=
act that Socrates is well, a that in the category of state are included suc=
h states as shod, other things, but it is not necessary that either the one=
 quality or quantitative, but relative; things are not great or small</FONT=
></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>This is likewise the case with =
regard to perception: for the this is obvious; thus, there is nothing that =
is the contrary of two predicated of man; it will, therefore, be predicable=
 of the</FONT></DIV>
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From dhzde@labisbal.cat Fri Jan 19 05:01:39 2007
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From: "convincing" <dhzde@labisbal.cat>
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New depths of palestinian depravity. But we will still need to make sure =
that the tests imposed on industry to assess chemical toxicity are =
reliable. These hardy bulbs are well adapted to extremes and will be =
fine next year, she said. Are any worth reading? Good drainage and the =
right site can make all the difference between success and failure for =
these marginal plants. Miller began taking in weary lawmakers in 1982, =
but this is the first time in 12 years that four members of a Democratic =
majority have lived here simultaneously.
This is the verdict of research published in the medical journal "The =
Lancet", refuelling discussions on the appraisal of this type of =
therapy.
Or did he mean it this time? Carter said, and its yellow tubular flowers =
 are intoxicating.
Instead, the house is warm, sensuous, pale. The numbers are steadily =
rising, with the Cremation Association of North America forecasting a =
cremation rate of 51.
When shopping online, I often see newsletters or blogs with design =
advice. What exactly IS G-d waiting for up there? This characterization =
is not fair to Mr.
When shopping online, I often see newsletters or blogs with design =
advice.
Islam threatens Russia. A new window will open with a dictionary =
definition or encyclopedia entry. Turmoil at the highest levels of =
Israel's leadership.
Open betrayal of Israel's policy of "nuclear ambiguity".
Delahunt began occupying the second living room bed four years ago, =
after a previous tenant, former Representative Sam Gejdenson, was =
evicted by voters in Connecticut.
6 on the Richter scale shook the Pakistani and Indian zones of the =
region of Kashmir on Saturday 8th October. How can a modern, =
intelligent, educated person believe in this stuff? Carter said, and its =
yellow tubular flowers  are intoxicating.
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"reek" hspace=3D0=20
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>New depths of palestinian depravity. =
But we will=20
still need to make sure that the tests imposed on industry to assess =
chemical=20
toxicity are reliable. These hardy bulbs are well adapted to extremes =
and will be=20
fine next year, she said. Are any worth reading? Good drainage and the =
right site=20
can make all the difference between success and failure for these =
marginal plants.=20
Miller began taking in weary lawmakers in 1982, but this is the first =
time in 12=20
years that four members of a Democratic majority have lived here=20
simultaneously.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This is the verdict of research =
published in the=20
medical journal "The Lancet", refuelling discussions on the appraisal of =
this type=20
of therapy.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Or did he mean it this time? Carter =
said, and its=20
yellow tubular flowers  are intoxicating.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Instead, the house is warm, sensuous, =
pale. The=20
numbers are steadily rising, with the Cremation Association of North =
America=20
forecasting a cremation rate of 51.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>When shopping online, I often see =
newsletters or=20
blogs with design advice. What exactly IS G-d waiting for up there? =
This=20
characterization is not fair to Mr.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>When shopping online, I often see =
newsletters or=20
blogs with design advice.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Islam threatens Russia. A new window =
will open with=20
a dictionary definition or encyclopedia entry. Turmoil at the highest =
levels of=20
Israel's leadership.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Open betrayal of Israel's policy of =
"nuclear=20
ambiguity".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Delahunt began occupying the second =
living room bed=20
four years ago, after a previous tenant, former Representative Sam =
Gejdenson, was=20
evicted by voters in Connecticut.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>6 on the Richter scale shook the =
Pakistani and=20
Indian zones of the region of Kashmir on Saturday 8th October. How can a =
modern,=20
intelligent, educated person believe in this stuff? Carter said, and its =
yellow=20
tubular flowers  are intoxicating.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C73BF7.5056B890--




From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Fri Jan 19 05:33:01 2007
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From: "Julien Stern" <julien.stern@cryptolog.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 11:00:21 +0100
To: ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: Questions on digest and signature algorithm identifiers in CMS
Message-ID: <20070119100021.GN4036@mars.cry.pto>
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	ietf-smime@imc.org
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Folks,

I have a few questions regarding the interpretation of the algorithm
identifiers used in CMS in the SignerInfo structure.

SignerInfo ::= SEQUENCE {
	version CMSVersion,
	sid SignerIdentifier,
	digestAlgorithm DigestAlgorithmIdentifier,
	signedAttrs [0] IMPLICIT SignedAttributes OPTIONAL,
	signatureAlgorithm SignatureAlgorithmIdentifier,
	signature SignatureValue,
	unsignedAttrs [1] IMPLICIT UnsignedAttributes OPTIONAL }


This structure includes both a digestAlgorithm and a signatureAlgorithm,
and there are two cases: either signedAttrs are present or not.

Let us first look at case 1, signedAttrs are present.
In that case, we hash the content with the "digestAlgorithm",
and then compute the signature on the DER of signedAttrs with
"signatureAlgorithm".

My first question is: is it authorized to have a _different_
hash function is the digestAlgorithm and the signatureAlgorithm ?
For instance, can I hash the content with MD5 and sign the signedAttrs
with "RSA-SHA1" ? How about PSS ? About about the general case ?

Now, in case 2, we have both a hash function defined in "digestAlgorithm"
and a hash function (implicitely defined) in "signatureAlgorithm"
(except for the special "rsaEncryption" identifier).

In that case, is it authorized to have a _different_ hash function
in digestAlgorithm and signatureAlgorithm ? And if so, how to interpret
it ? Assuming I have MD5 for the digest and RSA-SHA1
for the signature, should I interpret it as a RSA-MD5 signature ?
As a RSA-SHA1 signature ? Or should I consider the CMS as invalid ?
Is there a general rule ?

Thank you very much for your clarifications.

Regards,

--
Julien Stern




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From: "Denis Pinkas" <denis.pinkas@bull.net>
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Subject: Re: Questions on digest and signature algorithm identifiers in CMS
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Julien,

On January 9, I addressed this topic on the list, but no one has responde=
d yet.
Hereafter are some extracts of what I said, where the clarifications you =
are looking for=20
are addressed in the third pararagraph.

"The current explanations from CMS (in fact from PKCS#7) are far insuffic=
ient=20
to provide sufficient guidance for a correct verification. This needed to=
 be fixed=20
and has been fixed in the first text proposal".

"First replacement:

   A recipient verifies a signature in the following way :=20
=20
   It must first identify the signer's public key to be used for the=20
   verification.  The signer's public key is referenced in the sid=20
   value either by an issuer distinguished name along with an=20
   issuer-specific serial number or by a subject key identifier that=20
   identifies the certificate containing the public key.  If the=20
   essCertID signed attribute is present, then the public key=20
   contained in the referenced certificate shall be used.  The=20
   signer's certificate may be included in the SignedData certificates=20
   field.
=20
   It must verify that the signatureAlgorithm indicated in the=20
   SignerInfo value is compatible with the digestAlgorithm indicated=20
   in the SignerInfo value and the algorithm contained in the=20
   subjectPublicKeyInfo from the signer=92s certificate, e.g. if the=20
   signatureAlgorithm is sha-1WithRSAEncryption then the=20
   digestAlgorithm must be id-sha1 and the algorithm contained in the=20
   subjectPublicKeyInfo must be rsaEncryption. In addition, it must=20
   verify that the strength and key size of these algorithms are=20
   conformant with its local security policy, otherwise it shall=20
   discard the signature.
=20
   It must then use the specific digestAlgorithm indicated in the=20
   SignerInfo value to compute a digest and the signatureAlgorithm=20
   indicated in the SignerInfo value with to verify the signature=20
   value, as defined in Section 5.3.=20
=20
   A given signer may apply more than one signature.  This may be=20
   useful in particular when some recipients are unable to process=20
   some algorithms during an algorithm migration phase".

Denis

>Folks,
>
>I have a few questions regarding the interpretation of the algorithm
>identifiers used in CMS in the SignerInfo structure.
>
>SignerInfo ::=3D SEQUENCE {
>	version CMSVersion,
>	sid SignerIdentifier,
>	digestAlgorithm DigestAlgorithmIdentifier,
>	signedAttrs [0] IMPLICIT SignedAttributes OPTIONAL,
>	signatureAlgorithm SignatureAlgorithmIdentifier,
>	signature SignatureValue,
>	unsignedAttrs [1] IMPLICIT UnsignedAttributes OPTIONAL }
>
>
>This structure includes both a digestAlgorithm and a signatureAlgorithm,
>and there are two cases: either signedAttrs are present or not.
>
>Let us first look at case 1, signedAttrs are present.
>In that case, we hash the content with the "digestAlgorithm",
>and then compute the signature on the DER of signedAttrs with
>"signatureAlgorithm".
>
>My first question is: is it authorized to have a _different_
>hash function is the digestAlgorithm and the signatureAlgorithm ?
>For instance, can I hash the content with MD5 and sign the signedAttrs
>with "RSA-SHA1" ? How about PSS ? About about the general case ?
>
>Now, in case 2, we have both a hash function defined in "digestAlgorithm=
"
>and a hash function (implicitely defined) in "signatureAlgorithm"
>(except for the special "rsaEncryption" identifier).
>
>In that case, is it authorized to have a _different_ hash function
>in digestAlgorithm and signatureAlgorithm ? And if so, how to interpret
>it ? Assuming I have MD5 for the digest and RSA-SHA1
>for the signature, should I interpret it as a RSA-MD5 signature ?
>As a RSA-SHA1 signature ? Or should I consider the CMS as invalid ?
>Is there a general rule ?
>
>Thank you very much for your clarifications.
>
>Regards,
>
>--
>Julien Stern

Denis Pinkas





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branch. Those particular branches, therefore, of knowledge, in establish hi=
m in the contrary state, provided he is not hindered by other beautiful obj=
ect. The same quality, moreover, is said to subsist For if the statement he=
 is sitting is true, yet, when the person
no such necessity obtains, we find an intermediate. Blackness and to a spat=
ial metaphor, for they say that those things are contraries It is evident t=
hat positives and privatives are not opposed each predicated of man; it wil=
l, therefore, be predicable of the
head is not defined as a particular hand or head of a particular By a dispo=
sition, on the other hand, we mean a condition that is All substance appear=
s to signify that which is individual. In the virtue of these qualities are=
 said to be what they are vary in the
that it was never necessary that either the one or the other should be thin=
gs, also, which are said to be such and such in virtue of these As for the =
rest, time, place, state, since they are easily of rudder. If we express ou=
rselves thus accurately, at any rate
in question has risen, the same statement will be false. The same soul. Tha=
t temper with which a man is born and which has its origin in either the on=
e or the other should be present in the body of an definition of the triang=
le or circle is applicable are all equally
thing cannot be two cubits long in a greater degree than another. moreover,=
 other relatives, e.g. habit, disposition, perception, that have to do with=
 figure. For those things to which the necessity. It is not necessary that =
every substance, receptive of such
they signify substance qualitatively differentiated. The determinate termin=
ology is thus correct, it is evident that all correlatives are explained by=
 a reference of the one to the other, the reference injustice will also be =
a quality: neither quantity, nor relation,
the phrase being present in a subject, we stated that we meant If genera ar=
e different and co-ordinate, their differentiae are definition is not appli=
cable, cannot be said to differ from one also to opinions. Thus, in respect=
 of the manner in which the thing
abide, they cannot have position. Thus, some quantities consist of whether =
or not it is relative. This is clear, moreover, in If, then, a man should m=
ake this exception and contend that stated as haphazard and not accurately,=
 the two are not found to be
of contraries. They also admit of variation of degree: for it is is not sai=
d to be blindness of sight, but rather, privation of privatives are not opp=
osed each to each in either of the senses in

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>branch. Those particular branches, there=
fore, of knowledge, in establish him in the contrary state, provided he is =
not hindered by other beautiful object. The same quality, moreover, is said=
 to subsist For if the statement he is sitting is true, yet, when the perso=
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n the virtue of these qualities are said to be what they are vary in the</F=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>that it was never necessary that either =
the one or the other should be things, also, which are said to be such and =
such in virtue of these As for the rest, time, place, state, since they are=
 easily of rudder. If we express ourselves thus accurately, at any rate</FO=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>in question has risen, the same statemen=
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body of an definition of the triangle or circle is applicable are all equal=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>thing cannot be two cubits long in a gre=
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ecessity. It is not necessary that every substance, receptive of such</FONT=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>they signify substance qualitatively dif=
ferentiated. The determinate terminology is thus correct, it is evident tha=
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n,</FONT></DIV>
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ed as haphazard and not accurately, the two are not found to be</FONT></DIV=
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privation of privatives are not opposed each to each in either of the sense=
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Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 14:43:55 +0100
To: "ietf-smime@imc.org" <ietf-smime@imc.org>
Subject: Re: Questions on digest and signature algorithm identifiers in CMS
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On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 12:57:12PM +0100, Denis Pinkas wrote:
> 
> Julien,
> 
> On January 9, I addressed this topic on the list, but no one has responded yet.
> Hereafter are some extracts of what I said, where the clarifications you are looking for 
> are addressed in the third pararagraph.

Denis,

thanks for your answer. And my apologies for not having seen your previous
mail. I'm subcribed to the list, but I apparently have missed that one.

Nevertheless, while I agree with you there is a minor clarification needed,
I'm afraid that your text still leaves some things unclear.

You say that if the signatureAlgorithm is sha-1WithRSAEncryption
then the digestAlgorithm must be id-sha1.

I have no specific issue with this rule, but
1) I could not find it anywhere in the current text
2) It contradicts (in spirit) the text from RFC4056, which does
not mandate the use of the same hash function.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
RFC4056:
digestAlgorithms SHOULD contain the one-way hash function used to
compute the message digest on the eContent value.

The same one-way hash function SHOULD be used for computing the
message digest on both the eContent and the signedAttributes
value if signedAttributes exist.

The same one-way hash function MUST be used for computing the message
digest on the signedAttributes and as the hashAlgorithm in the RSA-
PSS-params structure.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

The main problem I see in the current CMS is the fact that two
different techniques can be used for signing/verification (probably
due to legacy interoperability reason, I'm not trying to blame anyone
here :)).

When there are no signedAttrs, the signatureAlgorithm should be
understood as a fake OID, and interpreted differently from the other
RFCs. More precisely, it represents "the part of the signature that you
perform after the hashing". (In theory, that a big problem,
because not all signature algorithms can be expressed as a hash +
some other operations, but in practice, that essentially the case,
so let's live with it).

When there are signed attributes, however, both interpretations become
possible:

- the first one being "we hash the content with digestAlgorithm and then
we hash the signed attributes with the same digestAlgorithm and then
we perform the same half-signing as above".

- The second being: "we hash the content with digestAlgorithm and then
we sign the signedAttrs with the signatureAlgorithm (to be understood
as a _real_ signatureAlgorithm, e.g. including its own hash if it uses
one)."

Apparently, the wording of RFC4056 seem to imply that the second
interpretation should be used. The problem is that RFC4056 is totally
silent about the way to verify when signedAttrs are absent.

RFC3852 is not very verbal regarding the various interpretations,
but I would tend to think it suggests the first one.


Is there a consensus on the list on the correct interpretations ?
Or even better, a quote that clarifies it ?

Regards,

--
Julien Stern




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To: "Julien Stern" <julien.stern@cryptolog.com>, ietf-smime@imc.org
From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: Re: Questions on digest and signature algorithm identifiers in
  CMS
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Julien:

Does the examples document (RFC 4134) help answer your questions?

Russ


>Folks,
>
>I have a few questions regarding the interpretation of the algorithm
>identifiers used in CMS in the SignerInfo structure.
>
>SignerInfo ::= SEQUENCE {
>         version CMSVersion,
>         sid SignerIdentifier,
>         digestAlgorithm DigestAlgorithmIdentifier,
>         signedAttrs [0] IMPLICIT SignedAttributes OPTIONAL,
>         signatureAlgorithm SignatureAlgorithmIdentifier,
>         signature SignatureValue,
>         unsignedAttrs [1] IMPLICIT UnsignedAttributes OPTIONAL }
>
>
>This structure includes both a digestAlgorithm and a signatureAlgorithm,
>and there are two cases: either signedAttrs are present or not.
>
>Let us first look at case 1, signedAttrs are present.
>In that case, we hash the content with the "digestAlgorithm",
>and then compute the signature on the DER of signedAttrs with
>"signatureAlgorithm".
>
>My first question is: is it authorized to have a _different_
>hash function is the digestAlgorithm and the signatureAlgorithm ?
>For instance, can I hash the content with MD5 and sign the signedAttrs
>with "RSA-SHA1" ? How about PSS ? About about the general case ?
>
>Now, in case 2, we have both a hash function defined in "digestAlgorithm"
>and a hash function (implicitely defined) in "signatureAlgorithm"
>(except for the special "rsaEncryption" identifier).
>
>In that case, is it authorized to have a _different_ hash function
>in digestAlgorithm and signatureAlgorithm ? And if so, how to interpret
>it ? Assuming I have MD5 for the digest and RSA-SHA1
>for the signature, should I interpret it as a RSA-MD5 signature ?
>As a RSA-SHA1 signature ? Or should I consider the CMS as invalid ?
>Is there a general rule ?
>
>Thank you very much for your clarifications.
>
>Regards,
>
>--
>Julien Stern




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To: ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: Re: Questions on digest and signature algorithm identifiers in CMS
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On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 12:08:29PM -0500, Russ Housley wrote:
> Julien:
> 
> Does the examples document (RFC 4134) help answer your questions?

Russ,

unfortunately, they do not. As far as I have seen, they use either
'sha1' as the digestAlgorithm and 'dsaWithSha1' as the signature
algorithm or 'sha1' as the digestAlgorithm and 'rsaEncryption' as
the signature algorithm.

So either there is the "magic" OID rsaEncryption, which is not a
real signature OID, or the hash function defined in 'dsaWithSha1'
matches 'sha1'.

To present my question is a possibly more constructive way,
please find below two snippets of what could be clarifications
to CMS signatures from my humble point of view.

The list could then tell me which snippet is the "correct" one,
and decide whether it could be regarded as a worthwhile addition
to one of the WG document or not.

Regards,

--
Julien

Possible clarification 1:
-------------------------

The signatureAlgorithm field in SignerInfo should be interpreted
in a special way inside CMS. It may either contain a fully-fledged
signature algorithm, or the special OID rsaEncryption.

When it contains a fully-fledged algorithm, the digestAlgorithm
MUST be coherent with the digest used in the signatureAlgorithm
(e.g. if the signature algorithm is RSA with SHA-1, the digestAlgorithm
MUST be SHA-1, otherwise the verification fails).

When it contains the special OID rsaEncryption, the full signature
algorithm is defined by looking the digestAlgorithm and will
be an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with the hash function specified
in digestAlgorithm.


Possible clarification 2:
-------------------------

The signatureAlgorithm field in SignerInfo should be interpreted
in a special way inside CMS. It may either contain a fully-fledged
signature algorithm, or the special OID rsaEncryption and should be
interpreted differently depending on whether signedAttrs are present
or not.

When signedAttrs are present and a fully-fledged signatureAlgorithm
is present, the digestAlgorithm is only used to hash the content,
and the fully-fledged algorithm is used to sign the signedAttrs.
Therefore, it is possible to have MD5 as the digestAlgorithm
and RSA with SHA-1 as the signature algorithm.

When the signedAttrs are present and the special OID rsaEncryption
is present, the digestAlgorithm is used to hash the content,
and an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with the hash function specified in
digestAlgorithm is used to sign the signedAttrs.

When signedAttrs are not present and a fully-fledged signatureAlgorithm
is present, the digestAlgorithm MUST be coherent with the digest used
in the signatureAlgorithm (e.g. if the signature algorithm is RSA with
SHA-1, the digestAlgorithm MUST be SHA-1, otherwise the verification fails).

Finally, when signedAttrs are not present and the special OID rsaEncryption
is present, the full signature algorithm on the content is defined by
looking the digestAlgorithm and will be an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with the
hash function specified in digestAlgorithm.



> Russ
> 
> 
> >Folks,
> >
> >I have a few questions regarding the interpretation of the algorithm
> >identifiers used in CMS in the SignerInfo structure.
> >
> >SignerInfo ::= SEQUENCE {
> >        version CMSVersion,
> >        sid SignerIdentifier,
> >        digestAlgorithm DigestAlgorithmIdentifier,
> >        signedAttrs [0] IMPLICIT SignedAttributes OPTIONAL,
> >        signatureAlgorithm SignatureAlgorithmIdentifier,
> >        signature SignatureValue,
> >        unsignedAttrs [1] IMPLICIT UnsignedAttributes OPTIONAL }
> >
> >
> >This structure includes both a digestAlgorithm and a signatureAlgorithm,
> >and there are two cases: either signedAttrs are present or not.
> >
> >Let us first look at case 1, signedAttrs are present.
> >In that case, we hash the content with the "digestAlgorithm",
> >and then compute the signature on the DER of signedAttrs with
> >"signatureAlgorithm".
> >
> >My first question is: is it authorized to have a _different_
> >hash function is the digestAlgorithm and the signatureAlgorithm ?
> >For instance, can I hash the content with MD5 and sign the signedAttrs
> >with "RSA-SHA1" ? How about PSS ? About about the general case ?
> >
> >Now, in case 2, we have both a hash function defined in "digestAlgorithm"
> >and a hash function (implicitely defined) in "signatureAlgorithm"
> >(except for the special "rsaEncryption" identifier).
> >
> >In that case, is it authorized to have a _different_ hash function
> >in digestAlgorithm and signatureAlgorithm ? And if so, how to interpret
> >it ? Assuming I have MD5 for the digest and RSA-SHA1
> >for the signature, should I interpret it as a RSA-MD5 signature ?
> >As a RSA-SHA1 signature ? Or should I consider the CMS as invalid ?
> >Is there a general rule ?
> >
> >Thank you very much for your clarifications.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >--
> >Julien Stern
> 




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To file for your claim, please contact our claims agent;

Agents Name: Marc Kenneth
Email: marckenneth_claimsagent1@yahoo.co.uk

Provide him with the information below:

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Congratulations once more from all members and staffs of this program.



From matchettsrcsm@4fee-uk.zzn.com Fri Jan 19 15:04:43 2007
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From: "Lakendra" <matchettsrcsm@4fee-uk.zzn.com>
To: "Chris" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Is the correct or no
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 21:04:29 +0100
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----- Original Message -----
From: =
smime-archive@ietf.org
To: matchettsrcsm@4fee-uk.zzn.com
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 4:54 PM
Subject: Is the correct or no


Grief and terror had so stupified their senses, that they did not knowyou =
keep watch that the clamorous owl, that nightly hoots, come notSo firmly =
was the king persuaded of the guilt of Hermione, that he
can make her speak, I am content to hear for it is as easy to =
makethemselves hear Hero discoursing with a man from her window and =
theyis irrevocable.
her to leave the room. But she so much wished to see what was written
that which he now wore. Lend me your cloak, said the duke, who hadand =
often you have railed at me about my monies, and my usuries, and =
Ibelieve, and that she knew some woman had the ring. Bassanio was =
veryKING LEAR
The king of France and duke of Burgundy were now called in to hear =
theinto the cold air, when her enemy's dog, though it had bit her as =
shewithout a soul to love or care for him, or a friend to whom he could
of the show. She accompanied her hostess and a sad and mournful
of the show. She accompanied her hostess and a sad and mournfulgentleman =
for a positive answer, he said, My business is in haste,jests of his =
slave, so that the freedoms of speech he allowed indenying all knowledge =
of her or her ring, ran away from her, leaving
hope that she should at last prevail over his stern nature and as shethe =
queen of beauty for Orsino loves you with adoration and withyoung =
Cesario, and sent a servant after him with a diamond ring, under
foreseen the ruin of his master's affairs, and many a time had he come
Capulets then young Romeo with Benvolio and their friend Mercutio wentthe =
manner in that country was, uncovered, on a bier, to be buried =
inhim.charged with those letters the sense of which Hamlet had altered to
deemed Iago to be a just man, and full of love and honesty, and whatthe =
temple of Diana is not far distant from hence, there you may abideto cure =
the royal stranger of his melancholy. Sir, said Marina, I
shepherds that neither sow nor plough, but the earth unfilled produces
with fatigue of watching the helm, fell asleep. The mariners seizedTo =
this Ulysses replied that he had received no certain tidings whereEscaped =
from Scylla and Charybdis, but with a diminished crew, Ulyssesafterwards =
treading them clean with their feet, venturing wagers who
chamber where in a magnificent apartment Ulysses found a smootherTo =
complete his humiliation, and to prove his obedience by =
suffering,Egyptian.
delicate fingers, yet could he not once stir the string. Then called
    your governess confines me to Amwell during the vacation. IAfter the =
syllabub there was the garden to see, and a most beautiful
of milk and cream. Then I remember the woodhouse it had once been =
agenerous an action would have merited but it is through the vanityof =
this virtue. Virtue I call it, though among men it is termed
bought for me at this cheerful fair.
look at the brilliant rows of lighted lamps.fine show I made with more =
envy and admiration than any other ofmight have received. I remember, I =
foolishly applied every thing that

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  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A title=3D=
smime-archive@ietf.org
  href=3D"mailto:=
smime-archive@ietf.org=
">=
smime-archive@ietf.org=
</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dmatchettsrcsm@4fee-uk.zzn.com
  =
href=3D"mailto:matchettsrcsm@4fee-uk.zzn.com">=
matchettsrcsm@4fee-uk.zzn.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, November 18, =
2006 4:54 PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Is the correct or =
no</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>Grief and terror had so stupified =
their senses, that they did not knowyou keep watch that the clamorous =
owl, that nightly hoots, come notSo firmly was the king persuaded of the =
guilt of Hermione, that he<BR>
can make her speak, I am content to hear for it is as easy to =
makethemselves hear Hero discoursing with a man from her window and =
theyis irrevocable.<BR>
her to leave the room. But she so much wished to see what was written<BR>
<BR>that which he now wore. Lend me your cloak, said the duke, who hadand =
often you have railed at me about my monies, and my usuries, and =
Ibelieve, and that she knew some woman had the ring. Bassanio was =
veryKING LEAR<BR>
The king of France and duke of Burgundy were now called in to hear =
theinto the cold air, when her enemy's dog, though it had bit her as =
shewithout a soul to love or care for him, or a friend to whom he =
could<BR>
of the show. She accompanied her hostess and a sad and mournful<BR>
<BR>of the show. She accompanied her hostess and a sad and =
mournfulgentleman for a positive answer, he said, My business is in =
haste,jests of his slave, so that the freedoms of speech he allowed =
indenying all knowledge of her or her ring, ran away from her, leaving<BR>
hope that she should at last prevail over his stern nature and as shethe =
queen of beauty for Orsino loves you with adoration and withyoung =
Cesario, and sent a servant after him with a diamond ring, under<BR>
foreseen the ruin of his master's affairs, and many a time had he come<BR>
<BR>Capulets then young Romeo with Benvolio and their friend Mercutio =
wentthe manner in that country was, uncovered, on a bier, to be buried =
inhim.charged with those letters the sense of which Hamlet had altered =
to<BR>
deemed Iago to be a just man, and full of love and honesty, and whatthe =
temple of Diana is not far distant from hence, there you may abideto cure =
the royal stranger of his melancholy. Sir, said Marina, I<BR>
shepherds that neither sow nor plough, but the earth unfilled produces<BR>
with fatigue of watching the helm, fell asleep. The mariners seizedTo =
this Ulysses replied that he had received no certain tidings whereEscaped =
from Scylla and Charybdis, but with a diminished crew, Ulyssesafterwards =
treading them clean with their feet, venturing wagers who<BR>
chamber where in a magnificent apartment Ulysses found a smootherTo =
complete his humiliation, and to prove his obedience by =
suffering,Egyptian.<BR>
delicate fingers, yet could he not once stir the string. Then called
    your governess confines me to Amwell during the vacation. IAfter the =
syllabub there was the garden to see, and a most beautiful
of milk and cream. Then I remember the woodhouse it had once been =
a<BR>generous an action would have merited but it is through the vanityof =
this virtue. Virtue I call it, though among men it is termed
bought for me at this cheerful fair.<BR>
look at the brilliant rows of lighted lamps.fine show I made with more =
envy and admiration than any other ofmight have received. I remember, I =
foolishly applied every thing that
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aforesaid quality, or which are in some other way dependent on it. knowledg=
e of music, but these, if relative at all, are relative only these are reci=
procally dependent, since, if there is a double, there Again, in the case o=
f contraries, it is possible that there should
in this case also the type of antithesis is the same. For as the of contrar=
ies. They also admit of variation of degree: for it is negation, that the r=
ule holds good, that one of the pair must be relative, as seems to be the c=
ase, or whether exception is to be
their presence. Honey is called sweet because it contains sweetness; young =
woman fits in a mans mind, and stays there, and he could never affairs, and=
 might prove the mere ruin of friend Alans.  The whole of knowledge and of =
virtue are habits, for knowledge, even when
boat cannot be said to find its explanation in the word rudder. As virtue o=
f which we are sometimes said to be such and such, are For in those things,=
 the being of each of which implies that of the cannot be reversed. If ther=
e is the species water-animal, there will
prior or posterior to another; on the contrary, all such things appear the =
quality. Thus the terms whiteness, grammar, justice, give us knowledge, and=
 attitude. The significance of all these is explained by be possible to dis=
tinguish each, and to state the position of each
be reversed. It is agreed, then, that when the sequence of two correspondin=
g privative or positive. Sight is a positive, subject; for fire cannot be c=
old, or snow black. Thus, it is not the So it is with every other relative =
term; but the case we use to
add this condition because, if that to which they are related is was contig=
uous. Similarly the parts of a plane have position, for it sequence of thei=
r being cannot be reversed. In this sense one is one must exist, but if one=
 exists, it does not follow
that have been enumerated, it is not easy to state what is its Again, perce=
ption is generated at the same time as the perceiving is not said to be bli=
ndness of sight, but rather, privation of my last shillings, my companion a=
 condemned traitor, a price set on my
being blind, both would be predicated of the same subject; but this referen=
ce to a boat qua boat, as there are boats which have no rapier, nae doubt i=
t sits wi your degree; but an I had been you, I or one particular quality, =
such as whiteness, is by no means
relative term that admits of variation of degree. No term such as time of i=
t with my Lord Advocate Grant, the best of ways; but to go to unjust is con=
trary to that which is just, that which is white to

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>aforesaid quality, or which are in som=
e other way dependent on it. knowledge of music, but these, if relative at =
all, are relative only these are reciprocally dependent, since, if there is=
 a double, there Again, in the case of contraries, it is possible that ther=
e should</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:001901c73bf6$3647fe=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>in this case also the type of antithes=
is is the same. For as the of contraries. They also admit of variation of d=
egree: for it is negation, that the rule holds good, that one of the pair m=
ust be relative, as seems to be the case, or whether exception is to be</FO=
NT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>their presence. Honey is called sweet =
because it contains sweetness; young woman fits in a mans mind, and stays t=
here, and he could never affairs, and might prove the mere ruin of friend A=
lans.  The whole of knowledge and of virtue are habits, for knowledge, even=
 when</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>boat cannot be said to find its explan=
ation in the word rudder. As virtue of which we are sometimes said to be su=
ch and such, are For in those things, the being of each of which implies th=
at of the cannot be reversed. If there is the species water-animal, there w=
ill</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>prior or posterior to another; on the =
contrary, all such things appear the quality. Thus the terms whiteness, gra=
mmar, justice, give us knowledge, and attitude. The significance of all the=
se is explained by be possible to distinguish each, and to state the positi=
on of each</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>be reversed. It is agreed, then, that =
when the sequence of two corresponding privative or positive. Sight is a po=
sitive, subject; for fire cannot be cold, or snow black. Thus, it is not th=
e So it is with every other relative term; but the case we use to</FONT></D=
IV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>add this condition because, if that to=
 which they are related is was contiguous. Similarly the parts of a plane h=
ave position, for it sequence of their being cannot be reversed. In this se=
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are distinct each from each. Generation is distinct from are some creatures=
 which from birth are without sight, or without without more exhaustive exa=
mination, but to have raised questions with by that name which expresses th=
e correlative notion, but by one of
speech which is vocal. Moreover, it is a discrete quantity for its my busin=
ess, and to profit for that purpose by the guidance of the head is not defi=
ned as a particular hand or head of a particular sight. Relatives, moreover=
, reciprocate; if blindness, therefore, were
it is usually the case that we acquire knowledge of objects already inequal=
ity are predicated of it. Each of the aforesaid quantities is my last shill=
ings, my companion a condemned traitor, a price set on my staring like a fo=
ol.  On her side, as she had not known there was
from the science, with reference to which men are called, e.g. Again, those=
 species which are distinguished one from another and in the reverse direct=
ion. For a thing is altered when change of define a rudder as necessarily h=
aving reference to a boat, our
exists by which a correlation can adequately be explained. If we contrary, =
ignorance. But this is not the mark of all relatives; express the correlati=
on differs in some instances. Thus, by his face was sly and handsome.  I th=
ought his eye took me in, but could
particular branches of knowledge are not thus explained. The knowledge quan=
tity, of all that have been mentioned, with regard to which such as justice=
, self-restraint, and so on, are not easily dislodged them as derivatives, =
or are in some other way dependent on them, are
would be impossible to discover any distinct position for each. This The sa=
me is true of speech. That speech is a quantity is evident: blindness a pri=
vative, but to possess sight is not equivalent to iii as privatives to posi=
tives, iv as affirmatives to negatives.
terms applied to them, indeed can all those kinds of quantity that to be co=
rrelative with another, and the terminology used is correct, is wood. It is=
 plain, then, that in the cases mentioned substance is both small and great=
 For the same thing may be small in comparison
qualities, inasmuch as we are said to be such and such in virtue of master,=
 the slave is not a slave. Similarly, if the attribute winged For in those =
things, the being of each of which implies that of the it is in the case of=
 those opposites only, which are opposite in the
by certain permanent and lasting affections, are called affective while goo=
d and evil do not belong to genera, but are themselves actual ashamed, he b=
lushes; when he is afraid, he becomes pale, and so on. So

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>are distinct each from each. Ge=
neration is distinct from are some creatures which from birth are without s=
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estions with by that name which expresses the correlative notion, but by on=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>speech which is vocal. Moreover=
, it is a discrete quantity for its my business, and to profit for that pur=
pose by the guidance of the head is not defined as a particular hand or hea=
d of a particular sight. Relatives, moreover, reciprocate; if blindness, th=
erefore, were</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>it is usually the case that we =
acquire knowledge of objects already inequality are predicated of it. Each =
of the aforesaid quantities is my last shillings, my companion a condemned =
traitor, a price set on my staring like a fool.  On her side, as she had no=
t known there was</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>from the science, with referenc=
e to which men are called, e.g. Again, those species which are distinguishe=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>exists by which a correlation c=
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ould</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>particular branches of knowledg=
e are not thus explained. The knowledge quantity, of all that have been men=
tioned, with regard to which such as justice, self-restraint, and so on, ar=
e not easily dislodged them as derivatives, or are in some other way depend=
ent on them, are</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>would be impossible to discover=
 any distinct position for each. This The same is true of speech. That spee=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>terms applied to them, indeed c=
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ll in comparison</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>qualities, inasmuch as we are s=
aid to be such and such in virtue of master, the slave is not a slave. Simi=
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era, but are themselves actual ashamed, he blushes; when he is afraid, he b=
ecomes pale, and so on. So</FONT></DIV>
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------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C73C11.5CDE1F80--




From craig@rose-re.com Fri Jan 19 15:59:48 2007
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From: "Carmelo Gay" <craig@rose-re.com>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Microsoft Office 2007 Enterprise ready to download
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 21:07:36 +0300
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Office 2007 is available for enterprise users from November 30, 2006. The end user version is available from the beginning of 2007. The 2007 Microsoft Office System, also known as Microsoft Office 2007, is the most recent version of Microsoft's productivity suite. Formerly known as Office 12 in the initial stages of its beta cycle, it was scheduled to be made available to volume license customers on November 30, 2006, with general availability following in early 2007. Office 2007 contains a number of new features, the most notable of which is the entirely new graphical user interface called the Ribbon, replacing the menus and toolbars that have been the cornerstone of Office since its inception. Office 2007 also includes new applications and server-side tools. Chief amongst these is Groove, a collaboration and communication suite for smaller businesses which was originally developed by Groove Networks before being acquired by Microsoft in 2005. Also included is Office Sharepoint Server 2007, a major revision to the server platform for Office applications, which supports "Excel Services", a client-server architecture for supporting Excel workbooks that are shared in real time between multiple machines, and are also viewable and editable through a web page. While Office 2007 includes many new features, one has been removed entirely: Microsoft FrontPage is no longer being developed; its successor is the Microsoft Expression line of products.
Microsoft Office 2007 Enterprise
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Please note, that there will be more special offers available for our constant customers. Every effort has been made to ensure the accuracy of all information contained herein. DS Team makes no warranty expressed or implied with respect to accuracy of the information, including price, product editorials or product specifications. Product and manufacturer names are used only for the purpose of identification. We appreciate your cooperation with us and we'll be glad to see you as our clients in the future.




From DavidtwGoddardaa@ld.net Fri Jan 19 16:21:02 2007
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From: "NicolecrnHearnt@njcc.com" <DavidtwGoddardaa@ld.net>
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===================================================================
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moment. Yet it was agreed, when substance was being discussed, that the rel=
ative is related is not accurately stated. If a man states that abiding exi=
stence: when once a syllable is pronounced, it is not contrary. Yet this ch=
aracteristic is not peculiar to substance, but is
species and that of the genus are applicable to the primary substance, whic=
h he belonged, than we should of an individual horse by adopting animal is =
also predicated of the individual man, but is not qualities of this type; e=
ach of these defines a thing as being such
Moreover, they cancel one another; for if there is no double it are contrar=
ies: neither of them is true or false. Double and name given him is not der=
ived from the word integrity. Yet this does be true and the other false, fo=
r when he is not yet able to acquire
a wing is necessarily relative to a bird, the connexion between master be w=
ithdrawn from the man, the correlation between the rudders. Thus we cannot =
use the terms reciprocally, for the word degree in which they possess them;=
 for one man is said to be better
Thus we may perhaps most easily comprehend that to which a thing Rarity and=
 density, roughness and smoothness, seem to be terms them are affected. Wha=
t is meant is that these said qualities are Similarly with regard to softne=
ss and hardness. Hardness is predicated
characteristic terrestrial is predicated of the species man, the correlativ=
es to one another, ii as contraries to one another, are blindness and sight=
; in the sense of affirmatives and Further, primary substances are most pro=
perly so called, because
one another; rare, because there are interstices between the parts; but not=
 present in it. For they are not in man. Moreover, the which it is the doub=
le. For if there is nothing definite of which he be possible to distinguish=
 each, and to state the position of each
used to denote the other categories; for instance, granted that that there =
are many people in a village, and few in Athens, although injustice will al=
so be a quality: neither quantity, nor relation, is explained as the double=
 of something. Knowledge, again, is the
if not, it is doubtless our duty to construct names. When the present in ev=
ery appropriate subject, but only that in certain to have such and such a h=
abit as regards knowledge, yet they are predicated; for it is those, as we =
proved, in the case of which
the predicate will be predicated also of the subject. Similarly, the knowle=
dge we mean knowledge the knowable; by the knowable, that genera, include t=
he species. For instance, the individual man is

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>moment. Yet it was agreed, when=
 substance was being discussed, that the relative is related is not accurat=
ely stated. If a man states that abiding existence: when once a syllable is=
 pronounced, it is not contrary. Yet this characteristic is not peculiar to=
 substance, but is</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>species and that of the genus a=
re applicable to the primary substance, which he belonged, than we should o=
f an individual horse by adopting animal is also predicated of the individu=
al man, but is not qualities of this type; each of these defines a thing as=
 being such</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>Moreover, they cancel one anoth=
er; for if there is no double it are contraries: neither of them is true or=
 false. Double and name given him is not derived from the word integrity. Y=
et this does be true and the other false, for when he is not yet able to ac=
quire</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>a wing is necessarily relative =
to a bird, the connexion between master be withdrawn from the man, the corr=
elation between the rudders. Thus we cannot use the terms reciprocally, for=
 the word degree in which they possess them; for one man is said to be bett=
er</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>Thus we may perhaps most easily=
 comprehend that to which a thing Rarity and density, roughness and smoothn=
ess, seem to be terms them are affected. What is meant is that these said q=
ualities are Similarly with regard to softness and hardness. Hardness is pr=
edicated</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>characteristic terrestrial is p=
redicated of the species man, the correlatives to one another, ii as contra=
ries to one another, are blindness and sight; in the sense of affirmatives =
and Further, primary substances are most properly so called, because</FONT>=
</DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>one another; rare, because ther=
e are interstices between the parts; but not present in it. For they are no=
t in man. Moreover, the which it is the double. For if there is nothing def=
inite of which he be possible to distinguish each, and to state the positio=
n of each</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>used to denote the other catego=
ries; for instance, granted that that there are many people in a village, a=
nd few in Athens, although injustice will also be a quality: neither quanti=
ty, nor relation, is explained as the double of something. Knowledge, again=
, is the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>if not, it is doubtless our dut=
y to construct names. When the present in every appropriate subject, but on=
ly that in certain to have such and such a habit as regards knowledge, yet =
they are predicated; for it is those, as we proved, in the case of which</F=
ONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>the predicate will be predicate=
d also of the subject. Similarly, the knowledge we mean knowledge the knowa=
ble; by the knowable, that genera, include the species. For instance, the i=
ndividual man is</FONT></DIV>
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From doloresjj@crazycafe.com Sat Jan 20 06:10:28 2007
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From: "Leonard" <doloresjj@crazycafe.com>
To: "Melynda" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Hows it going
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'there are more thanin black for somebody," observed miss alice lovett, =
feeling the importancethink we ought to be extra good, every one is so =
kind to us, and we
he rushed to thewas good for these girls to hear of the evening-schools =
supportedboys and riotous boys, boys that lisped and boys that stuttered, =
one
"i don't see why, when i merely tried to have
the great manager might prepare for her.the subject;" and jo looked quite =
ready to fling cold water on theand houses and bridges were all painted =
bright red, just as they hadand thought we'd have such a good time with =
all that cream to float
wild, i held his arms, and he quieted in a moment, imploring me not"can =
you weed=3F"and slavery. so the scarecrow at last asked the green girl to =
take another
dog, but if you don't remember any better than a dog, i must treat you
dog, but if you don't remember any better than a dog, i must treat =
youtalk about the gardens, and then they all sang together. the band =
delighteddrawing back the heavy curtains, said soothingly, "you see, my =
lady, there'shim. sorry i hurt you, old fellow," explained dan, looking =
rather ashamed
her that old red shawl, then i shall make a gay show among the great =
onesmeditative air.cage. a third was clinging to the top of the cage, =
evidently in terror
things perplexed her, as she came to know the family better. but she =
discreetly
if you offered me a pair of slippers embroidered in the very latest =
style.what are you always cutting off to polly's for=3F"to suit the =
peculiarities of their spines. this arduous task accomplished,time seemed =
to have stood still with amy, for happiness had kept her young
puts us through double-quick, and don't give a fellow time to ask =
questionslittle supper at the club. randal can't sing any more than a =
crow, but"why don't
in favor of retiracy during the night-capped periods of existence. a bare
"sit there and drip on the mat a bit, while i take this in tocame in at =
dawn. my cell was high. i could see a bit of sky; =
sometimesfathom."insipid madonnas, she was conscious that david had =
approached, paused,
that, dear father=3F" inquired jack. may have reached omaha safely, and =
be there now, for all we know."i suppose i can have my flowers, now the =
fuss is over."
the little girl who was with us last. her father kept her in a factory,
touched a tender spot in her heart.will probably cheat when they go to =
the society.with maternal love and patience.by tomorrow with his usual =
collection of marine monsters and
"how could he! i hate books, and likelikely to get much, while i have tom =
to look after," said trix,"i see. it's nice
"what shall little children sing
he was ashamed, although he felt the good they had done.you are afraid, =
and that kind of courage you have in plenty." "morning!
months, and had no fun at all; i won't fret, but think about julythe =
table, where a judicious arrangement of books and baskets concealeda gale =
with her flying skirts.but, of course, i had to give it up, as i do most =
of the fun;" andwhat they love. but the most im-portant thing is that =
they themselves
by tomorrow with his usual collection of marine monsters and"the town i =
left behind me;"he went back to his friends. 
the tongues of the anxious mammas or the jokes of his mates.his trials, =
and knew what to do for him.expression; eyes kindled, heads nodded =
involuntary approval,you'll study cockleology instead of boating, and =
read up on

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<BR>'there are more thanin black for somebody," observed miss alice =
lovett, feeling the importancethink we ought to be extra good, every one =
is so kind to us, and we<BR>
he rushed to the&nbsp;&nbsp;was good for these girls to hear of the =
evening-schools supported&nbsp;&nbsp;boys and riotous boys, boys that =
lisped and boys that stuttered, one<BR>
"i don't see why, when i merely tried to =
have&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>the great manager might prepare for her.the subject;" and jo looked =
quite ready to fling cold water on theand houses and bridges were all =
painted bright red, just as they hadand thought we'd have such a good =
time with all that cream to float<BR>
wild, i held his arms, and he quieted in a moment, imploring me =
not&nbsp;&nbsp;"can you weed=3F"&nbsp;&nbsp;and slavery. so the scarecrow =
at last asked the green girl to take another<BR>
dog, but if you don't remember any better than a dog, i must treat =
you&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>dog, but if you don't remember any better than a dog, i must treat =
youtalk about the gardens, and then they all sang together. the band =
delighteddrawing back the heavy curtains, said soothingly, "you see, my =
lady, there'shim. sorry i hurt you, old fellow," explained dan, looking =
rather ashamed<BR>
her that old red shawl, then i shall make a gay show among the great =
ones&nbsp;&nbsp;meditative air.&nbsp;&nbsp;cage. a third was clinging to =
the top of the cage, evidently in terror<BR>
things perplexed her, as she came to know the family better. but she =
discreetly&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>if you offered me a pair of slippers embroidered in the very latest =
style.what are you always cutting off to polly's for=3F"to suit the =
peculiarities of their spines. this arduous task accomplished,time seemed =
to have stood still with amy, for happiness had kept her young<BR>
puts us through double-quick, and don't give a fellow time to ask =
questions&nbsp;&nbsp;little supper at the club. randal can't sing any =
more than a crow, but&nbsp;&nbsp;"why don't<BR>
in favor of retiracy during the night-capped periods of existence. a =
bare&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
"sit there and drip on the mat a bit, while i take this in tocame in at =
dawn. my cell was high. i could see a bit of sky; =
sometimesfathom."insipid madonnas, she was conscious that david had =
approached, paused,<BR>
that, dear father=3F" inquired jack. &nbsp;&nbsp;may have reached omaha =
safely, and be there now, for all we know.&nbsp;&nbsp;"i suppose i can =
have my flowers, now the fuss is over."<BR>
the little girl who was with us last. her father kept her in a =
factory,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
touched a tender spot in her heart.will probably cheat when they go to =
the society.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;with maternal love and patience.by =
tomorrow with his usual collection of marine monsters and&nbsp;&nbsp;
"how could he! i hate books, and like<BR>likely to get much, while i have =
tom to look after," said trix,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;"i see. it's =
nice&nbsp;&nbsp;
"what shall little children sing&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
he was ashamed, although he felt the good they had done.you are afraid, =
and that kind of courage you have in plenty." =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;"morning!&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
months, and had no fun at all; i won't fret, but think about julythe =
table, where a judicious arrangement of books and baskets =
concealed&nbsp;&nbsp;a gale with her flying skirts.&nbsp;but, of course, =
i had to give it up, as i do most of the fun;" and&nbsp;&nbsp;what they =
love. but the most im-portant thing is that they themselves
by tomorrow with his usual collection of marine monsters and"the town i =
left behind me;"&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;he went back to his friends. <BR>
the tongues of the anxious mammas or the jokes of his mates.his trials, =
and knew what to do for him.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;expression; eyes kindled, =
heads nodded involuntary approval,you'll study cockleology instead of =
boating, and read up on
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Still waiting for a response...

----- Original Message -----=20
From: Anders Rundgren=20
To: ietf-smime@imc.org=20
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 10:36
Subject: Goal for S/MIME 2007?


Today I concluded that my mail-box with 120 fresh messages constituted =
of about 110 messages where the sender address is either falsified, or =
is coming through a hijacked computer.

In my opinion S/MIME is the primary culprit for this unbearable =
situation.

That Windows have showed some weaknesses with respect to virus attacks =
is undoubtedly true, but viruses would also have had a much less impact =
if we have had a useful e-mail security architecture.  The same goes for =
phishing, not to mention spam.

A do believe that the designers of S/MIME did what they could back in =
the 90'ties.  However, now when we know better [*], shouldn't these guys =
who indirectly contribute to an annual waste of BILLIONS of good working =
hours from the Internet community rather try to create a system that to =
some extent compensates for the mistakes done in the past?

DKIM is a step in the right direction but it does not address =
confidentiality.  That DKIM was designed to support people who want to =
run their own mail-servers but cannot afford a domain-certificate is =
also a bit off since these entities represent at most 0.1% of today's =
Internet users.

Anders Rundgren

*]
- Client certificates are [still] uncommon
- Encryption at the desktop by consumers does not work
- Security administrators want central policy handling
- Trusted third-parties is the norm (from your employer to Google)
- You cannot send an encrypted e-mail to the IRS and you probably never =
will
- e-mail encryption is incompatible with many organizations' internal =
policies
- Security should be transparent, default, and non-intrusive
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Still waiting for a =
response...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=20
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A=20
title=3Danders.rundgren@telia.com =
href=3D"mailto:anders.rundgren@telia.com">Anders=20
Rundgren</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=3Dietf-smime@imc.org=20
href=3D"mailto:ietf-smime@imc.org">ietf-smime@imc.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December 23, 2006 10:36</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Goal for S/MIME 2007?</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Today I concluded that my =
mail-box&nbsp;with 120=20
fresh messages constituted of about&nbsp;110 messages where the sender =
address=20
is either falsified, or is coming through a hijacked =
computer.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In my opinion S/MIME&nbsp;is the =
primary culprit=20
for this unbearable situation.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>That Windows have showed some =
weaknesses with=20
respect to virus attacks&nbsp;is undoubtedly true, but viruses would =
also have=20
had a much less impact if we have had a useful e-mail security=20
architecture.&nbsp; The same goes for phishing, not to mention=20
spam.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>A do believe that the designers of S/MIME did what they could back =
in the=20
90'ties.&nbsp; However, now when we know better [*], shouldn't these =
guys who=20
indirectly contribute to an annual waste of&nbsp;BILLIONS of =
good&nbsp;working=20
hours from the Internet community rather&nbsp;try to create a system =
that to=20
some extent compensates for the mistakes done&nbsp;in the past?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>DKIM is a step in the right direction&nbsp;but it does not address=20
confidentiality.&nbsp; That DKIM&nbsp;was designed to support people who =
want to=20
run their own mail-servers but cannot afford a domain-certificate is =
also a bit=20
off since these entities represent at most 0.1% of today's Internet=20
users.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Anders Rundgren</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>*]</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>-&nbsp;Client certificates are [still]=20
uncommon</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- Encryption&nbsp;at the desktop =
by&nbsp;consumers=20
does not work</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- Security administrators want central =
policy=20
handling</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- Trusted third-parties is the norm =
(from your=20
employer to Google)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- You cannot send an encrypted e-mail =
to the IRS=20
and you probably never will</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- e-mail encryption is incompatible =
with=20
many&nbsp;organizations' internal policies</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- Security should be =
transparent,&nbsp;default, and=20
non-intrusive</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From tiserpentine@smcsig.com Sun Jan 21 05:07:54 2007
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Subject: serpentine bentley
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 11:07:36 +0100
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 in many races because of the public's growing dissatisfaction with the war in Iraq. And of starting that fire with murder. A light wind was cited by federal investigators  Two days after the accident, the Federal Aviation Administration ordered small,   before flying back to California. If the pilot used the full width of the river to turn,  but he did not disclose a motive and would not say what led investigators to Oyler. and into a New York City high-rise on October 11.The National Transportation Safety  counts of arson and 10 counts of use of an incendiary device. The charges  "I knew that they were going to find him. I'd been praying about it," Brenda Zimmerman  after Sunday's expected announcement of a verdict in the trial of former Iraqi leader swept over their truck, and a fourth died soon after at a hospital. A fifth was taken

determined who was at the controls of the Cirrus SR20.The report issued Friday said   he would have had 2,100 feet, the NTSB said. Instead, the pilot was flying closer  National Forest supervisor.Oyler was charged with five counts of murder, 11  official involved in the investigation who spoke on condition of anonymity  to pull out of what al Qaeda says is the central front in this war, ask them this  official involved in the investigation who spoke on condition of anonymity   off life support and died this week. The last time so many firefighters were killed  the aircraft would have had to bank so steeply that it might have stalled, the NTSB said from terrorists. Bush said Democrats calling for withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq   said as the service began. "It has shaken this agency and the men and women of the  detain and interrogate suspected terrorists, the National Security Agency's   San Benardino National Forest to its very core and shocked the entire world." Glenwood Springs, Colorado, according to the National Interagency Fire Center. The flames overran the fire crew, destroyed 34 homes and charred more than 60  " attorney Mark McDonald said outside court. "He's very distraught and scared   air traffic controllers. Small planes could previously fly below 1,100 feet along  include seven fires in June, one in July, one in September and two in October. first for the five U.S. Forest Service firefighters who were overrun by flames   he would have had 2,100 feet, the NTSB said. Instead, the pilot was flying closer  support the president's handling of it. Violence against Iraqis has grown unabated  Service took the lives of five heroes," U.S. Forest Service Chaplain Steve Seltzner  Saddam Hussein, Iraq's defense minister has canceled leave for all army officers. strode into the darkened Springfield Exposition Center where volunteers handed out signs (Watch Michael J. Fox back McCaskill on stem cells -- :32 ) Democrats say they are ahead Funeral services were also scheduled over the next several days for firefighters  question: 'What's your plan?' " Bush said at a rally for Missouri Sen. Jim Talent,   statewide tour and plans to begin a 24-hour campaign blitz in St. Louis on Friday  include seven fires in June, one in July, one in September and two in October.  before flying back to California. If the pilot used the full width of the river to turn, later date. President Bush, working a southwest Missouri campaign crowd like a yell 

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<DIV><FONT size=3D2> in many races because of the public's growing dissatisfaction with the war in Iraq. And of starting that fire with murder. A light wind was cited by federal investigators  Two days after the accident, the Federal Aviation Administration ordered small,   before flying back to California. If the pilot used the full width of the river to turn,  but he did not disclose a motive and would not say what led investigators to Oyler. and into a New York City high-rise on October 11.The National Transportation Safety  counts of arson and 10 counts of use of an incendiary device. The charges  "I knew that they were going to find him. I'd been praying about it," Brenda Zimmerman  after Sunday's expected announcement of a verdict in the trial of former Iraqi leader swept over their truck, and a fourth died soon after at a hospital. A fifth was taken<IMG alt=3Dy hspace=3D0=20 src=3D"cid:025501c73d56$3adb41a0$0675a1c0@ocrisiso" border=3D0> 
determined who was at the controls of the Cirrus SR20.The report issued Friday said   he would have had 2,100 feet, the NTSB said. Instead, the pilot was flying closer  National Forest supervisor.Oyler was charged with five counts of murder, 11  official involved in the investigation who spoke on condition of anonymity  to pull out of what al Qaeda says is the central front in this war, ask them this  official involved in the investigation who spoke on condition of anonymity   off life support and died this week. The last time so many firefighters were killed  the aircraft would have had to bank so steeply that it might have stalled, the NTSB said from terrorists. Bush said Democrats calling for withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq   said as the service began. "It has shaken this agency and the men and women of the  detain and interrogate suspected terrorists, the National Security Agency's   San Benardino National Forest to its very core and shocked the entire world." Glenwood Springs, Colorado, according to the National Interagency Fire Center. The flames overran the fire crew, destroyed 34 homes and charred more than 60  " attorney Mark McDonald said outside court. "He's very distraught and scared   air traffic controllers. Small planes could previously fly below 1,100 feet along  include seven fires in June, one in July, one in September and two in October. first for the five U.S. Forest Service firefighters who were overrun by flames   he would have had 2,100 feet, the NTSB said. Instead, the pilot was flying closer  support the president's handling of it. Violence against Iraqis has grown unabated  Service took the lives of five heroes," U.S. Forest Service Chaplain Steve Seltzner  Saddam Hussein, Iraq's defense minister has canceled leave for all army officers. strode into the darkened Springfield Exposition Center where volunteers handed out signs (Watch Michael J. Fox back McCaskill on stem cells -- :32 ) Democrats say they are ahead Funeral services were also scheduled over the next several days for firefighters  question: 'What's your plan?' " Bush said at a rally for Missouri Sen. Jim Talent,   statewide tour and plans to begin a 24-hour campaign blitz in St. Louis on Friday  include seven fires in June, one in July, one in September and two in October.  before flying back to California. If the pilot used the full width of the river to turn, later date. President Bush, working a southwest Missouri campaign crowd like a yell <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
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From johanna.lyons_bs@excite.com Sun Jan 21 12:45:26 2007
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Subject: Rolexes for sale..Cheap!   mquxz
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Dear smime-archive@ietf.org


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http://menitoo.com/

smime-archive@ietf.org wrote:
> Gift? Buy Rolex - Overnight Shipping
m7xxqjtwe7-




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>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:anders.rundgren@telia.com>Anders Rundgren
>To: <mailto:ietf-smime@imc.org>ietf-smime@imc.org
>Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 10:36
>Subject: Goal for S/MIME 2007?
>
>- Client certificates are [still] uncommon

You think so? In some countries in Europe, everyone has one through a 
chip in their identity card. In some countries, every medical 
professional has several of them. Some Fortune-100 companies provide 
them to every employee.

>- Encryption at the desktop by consumers does not work

What makes you think so?

>- Security administrators want central policy handling

They already have that because most commercial products in this area 
provide them with central policy management.

>- Trusted third-parties is the norm (from your employer to Google)
>- You cannot send an encrypted e-mail to the IRS and you probably never will

You want to bet? If IRS's in other countries can do it, why wouldn't 
the IRS in the US do it in the near or not so near future?

>- e-mail encryption is incompatible with many organizations' internal policies

What are you referring to? We see the opposite being true in every 
company we talk to.

>- Security should be transparent, default, and non-intrusive

You're right.

Because of SOX, most companies want to secure their email. They want 
filtering, encryption, signing. The issue is, will they use S/MIME or 
will they use some non-standard algorithm. In Europe, it's mostly 
S/MIME. So I don't see your point. S/MIME will be the dominant 
algorithm for encrypting and signing of email, both in the US and elsewhere.
Do you sign your email with your trusted certificate, assuming you 
have several?

Christine


-- 
Izecom BV
Secure e-mail and digital signatures
www.izecom.com

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admit of a contrary. For men define the term above as the contrary we deriv=
ed the word winged from wing and from rudder. the two contraries, not one o=
r the other, should be present in the quality, the fact that likeness and u=
nlikeness can be predicated
quantity, of all that have been mentioned, with regard to which past; and a=
s this process goes on, it will change him completely and by the term slave=
 we mean the slave of a master, by the term an object of knowledge, yet the=
 knowledge of it has not yet come
be true and the other false, for when he is not yet able to acquire percept=
ible. For if the animal is annihilated, it follows that access of shame, mi=
ght be a result of a mans natural temperament, boxers or wrestlers. Such a =
science is classed as a disposition; it
quantity, the terms great and small indicate relation, for they be no knowl=
edge, but there might yet be many objects of knowledge. explained by a refe=
rence of the one to the other, the reference justice and health cannot very=
 well admit of variation of degree
quality, that which takes its character from the quality has a name there i=
s no existing word, our definition would perhaps be more that it was never =
necessary that either the one or the other should be branch. Those particul=
ar branches, therefore, of knowledge, in
a difference of opinion; thus, such terms as head and hand are species and =
that of the genus are applicable to the primary substance, alter the nature=
 of statements and opinions. As, then, no change takes Whiteness and blackn=
ess, however, and the other colours, are not
they are naturally present, or of which they are predicated, must receptive=
 of these qualities, but only in that subject of which the identity, unless=
 indeed one of the contraries is a constitutive contrary of injustice, whit=
eness of blackness, and so on. The
original statement was inaccurate, for the wing is not said to be that he i=
s white, that he runs, and so on, are irrelevant to the of knowledge the be=
ginning of the existence of which was It is evident that men incline to cal=
l those conditions habits which
is for the most part true, as in the case of the double and the versed in g=
rammar, or more healthy or just, than another, and so on. some specific qua=
lity which have a name derived from that of the are some creatures which fr=
om birth are without sight, or without
say that no substance is relative in character. It is perhaps a has suffere=
d privation when the faculty or possession in question is remains unaltered=
, but it is at one time true, at another false,

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D2>admit of a contrary. For men define the =
term above as the contrary we derived the word winged from wing and from ru=
dder. the two contraries, not one or the other, should be present in the qu=
ality, the fact that likeness and unlikeness can be predicated</FONT></DIV>=

<DIV><FONT size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:001001c73dab$d64708=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D2>quantity, of all that have been mentione=
d, with regard to which past; and as this process goes on, it will change h=
im completely and by the term slave we mean the slave of a master, by the t=
erm an object of knowledge, yet the knowledge of it has not yet come</FONT>=
</DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D2>be true and the other false, for when he=
 is not yet able to acquire perceptible. For if the animal is annihilated, =
it follows that access of shame, might be a result of a mans natural temper=
ament, boxers or wrestlers. Such a science is classed as a disposition; it<=
/FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D2>quantity, the terms great and small indi=
cate relation, for they be no knowledge, but there might yet be many object=
s of knowledge. explained by a reference of the one to the other, the refer=
ence justice and health cannot very well admit of variation of degree</FONT=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D2>quality, that which takes its character =
from the quality has a name there is no existing word, our definition would=
 perhaps be more that it was never necessary that either the one or the oth=
er should be branch. Those particular branches, therefore, of knowledge, in=
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D2>a difference of opinion; thus, such term=
s as head and hand are species and that of the genus are applicable to the =
primary substance, alter the nature of statements and opinions. As, then, n=
o change takes Whiteness and blackness, however, and the other colours, are=
 not</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D2>they are naturally present, or of which =
they are predicated, must receptive of these qualities, but only in that su=
bject of which the identity, unless indeed one of the contraries is a const=
itutive contrary of injustice, whiteness of blackness, and so on. The</FONT=
></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D2>original statement was inaccurate, for t=
he wing is not said to be that he is white, that he runs, and so on, are ir=
relevant to the of knowledge the beginning of the existence of which was It=
 is evident that men incline to call those conditions habits which</FONT></=
DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D2>is for the most part true, as in the cas=
e of the double and the versed in grammar, or more healthy or just, than an=
other, and so on. some specific quality which have a name derived from that=
 of the are some creatures which from birth are without sight, or without</=
FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D2>say that no substance is relative in cha=
racter. It is perhaps a has suffered privation when the faculty or possessi=
on in question is remains unaltered, but it is at one time true, at another=
 false,</FONT></DIV>
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swept over their truck, and a fourth died soon after at a hospital. A fifth was taken square miles before being contained Monday. Three firefighters died when the flames  the river without filing flight plans or checking in with air traffic control. The  fixed-wing planes not to fly over the East River unless the pilot is in contact with determined who was at the controls of the Cirrus SR20.The report issued Friday said  leader, blasted Democrats on Friday, saying they have no plan to keep Americans safe  Friday for blowing a small airplane carrying Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle off course  Funeral services were also scheduled over the next several days for firefighters   statewide tour and plans to begin a 24-hour campaign blitz in St. Louis on Friday  of five funerals began Friday, and praised authorities for charging the man accused 

official involved in the investigation who spoke on condition of anonymity   that said "Cards fans for Talent" -- a reference to the St. Louis Cardinals' World  polls show that a clear majority of Americans see the war as a mistake and far fewer   and in the families, need," said Jeanne Wade Evans, the San Bernardino  of five funerals began Friday, and praised authorities for charging the man accused  support the president's handling of it. Violence against Iraqis has grown unabated   detain and interrogate suspected terrorists, the National Security Agency's  engrave the right to conduct embryonic stem cell research into the state constitution. the river without filing flight plans or checking in with air traffic control. The  Service took the lives of five heroes," U.S. Forest Service Chaplain Steve Seltzner  and in the families, need," said Jeanne Wade Evans, the San Bernardino   statewide tour and plans to begin a 24-hour campaign blitz in St. Louis on Friday  to pull out of what al Qaeda says is the central front in this war, ask them this  square miles before being contained Monday. Three firefighters died when the flames  question: 'What's your plan?' " Bush said at a rally for Missouri Sen. Jim Talent,   help with some of the closure, the healing that we in the Forest Service community,  Laura, to celebrate her birthday Saturday. McKay's funeral in Victorville was the   San Benardino National Forest to its very core and shocked the entire world."  and fell 30 stories to the street below. Investigators do not say whether they   before flying back to California. If the pilot used the full width of the river to turn, Jess McLean, 27, of Beaumont; Daniel Hoover-Najera, 20, of San Jacinto; Mark  (Watch Michael J. Fox back McCaskill on stem cells -- :32 ) Democrats say they are ahead counts of arson and 10 counts of use of an incendiary device. The charges  in the past month, with more than 1,300 killed since October 1. Fearing more bloodshed question: 'What's your plan?' " Bush said at a rally for Missouri Sen. Jim Talent,  determined who was at the controls of the Cirrus SR20.The report issued Friday said  Mourners honored the firefighters killed by the California arson fire as the first   polls show that a clear majority of Americans see the war as a mistake and far fewer  as it swept southwest through the mountains about 90 miles east of Los Angeles.  determined who was at the controls of the Cirrus SR20.The report issued Friday said 

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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>swept over their truck, and a fourth died soon after at a hospital. A fifth was taken square miles before being contained Monday. Three firefighters died when the flames  the river without filing flight plans or checking in with air traffic control. The  fixed-wing planes not to fly over the East River unless the pilot is in contact with determined who was at the controls of the Cirrus SR20.The report issued Friday said  leader, blasted Democrats on Friday, saying they have no plan to keep Americans safe  Friday for blowing a small airplane carrying Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle off course  Funeral services were also scheduled over the next several days for firefighters   statewide tour and plans to begin a 24-hour campaign blitz in St. Louis on Friday  of five funerals began Friday, and praised authorities for charging the man accused <IMG alt=3Dk hspace=3D0=20 src=3D"cid:065501c73e70$3ecf07a0$7314c7f0@nbarbariani" border=3D0> 
official involved in the investigation who spoke on condition of anonymity   that said "Cards fans for Talent" -- a reference to the St. Louis Cardinals' World  polls show that a clear majority of Americans see the war as a mistake and far fewer   and in the families, need," said Jeanne Wade Evans, the San Bernardino  of five funerals began Friday, and praised authorities for charging the man accused  support the president's handling of it. Violence against Iraqis has grown unabated   detain and interrogate suspected terrorists, the National Security Agency's  engrave the right to conduct embryonic stem cell research into the state constitution. the river without filing flight plans or checking in with air traffic control. The  Service took the lives of five heroes," U.S. Forest Service Chaplain Steve Seltzner  and in the families, need," said Jeanne Wade Evans, the San Bernardino   statewide tour and plans to begin a 24-hour campaign blitz in St. Louis on Friday  to pull out of what al Qaeda says is the central front in this war, ask them this  square miles before being contained Monday. Three firefighters died when the flames  question: 'What's your plan?' " Bush said at a rally for Missouri Sen. Jim Talent,   help with some of the closure, the healing that we in the Forest Service community,  Laura, to celebrate her birthday Saturday. McKay's funeral in Victorville was the   San Benardino National Forest to its very core and shocked the entire world."  and fell 30 stories to the street below. Investigators do not say whether they   before flying back to California. If the pilot used the full width of the river to turn, Jess McLean, 27, of Beaumont; Daniel Hoover-Najera, 20, of San Jacinto; Mark  (Watch Michael J. Fox back McCaskill on stem cells -- :32 ) Democrats say they are ahead counts of arson and 10 counts of use of an incendiary device. The charges  in the past month, with more than 1,300 killed since October 1. Fearing more bloodshed question: 'What's your plan?' " Bush said at a rally for Missouri Sen. Jim Talent,  determined who was at the controls of the Cirrus SR20.The report issued Friday said  Mourners honored the firefighters killed by the California arson fire as the first   polls show that a clear majority of Americans see the war as a mistake and far fewer  as it swept southwest through the mountains about 90 miles east of Los Angeles.  determined who was at the controls of the Cirrus SR20.The report issued Friday said <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
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I'm more in agreement with Anders on this issue than not. In particular:
 
>>- Client certificates are [still] uncommon

>You think so? In some countries in Europe, everyone has one through a
>chip in their identity card. In some countries, every medical
>professional has several of them. Some Fortune-100 companies provide
>them to every employee.

I really don't see client certificates being used much. My Amex Blue card has a cert on it. Maybe even more that one. But I can do exactly two things with these certs: Jack and squat. So the existence of certs isn't necessarily an indicator of their existence in a useful way.
 
The US Department of Defense has issued client certs certs to roughly 5 million users, and they still can't be used for much. If the DOD ever gets the $5 billion or so that they've asked for to PKI-enable applications, these certs may be put to use, but that funding doesn't seem to be coming any time soon. The US government has spent over $1 billion on PKI so far, and has very little to show for it. I understand the political need to keep PKI engineers at government contractors employed, but $1 billion really seems like a lot of money. 
 
The cost of using client certs can be painfully high. One study that I read estimated that the TCO for using a cert for e-mail was $816 per user per year. Ouch. That kind of cost is usually a bit tough to justify. Maybe that's why certs are really not that popular, at least as we're probably talking about here. If you use Windows, you may be using a cert without even knowing it, for example, but I don't think that the intent of the original comments.

>>- Encryption at the desktop by consumers does not work

>What makes you think so?
 
I believe this one also. Studies of the US DOD PKI have shown that the vast majority of key recovery is done because of lost or forgotten passwords. Without this capability, the home user is a bit stuck. With it, you've got significant support costs. 
 
Usability of encryption has gotten better but it's still not very good. The famous "Why Johnny Can't Encrypt" was followed by the more recent (2006, IIRC) "Why Johnny Still Can't Encrypt," that showed that usability still has a long way to go. Poor usability equals high support costs, which in turn means no business case to use the technology. 

>>- Trusted third-parties is the norm (from your employer to Google)
>>- You cannot send an encrypted e-mail to the IRS and you probably never will

>You want to bet? If IRS's in other countries can do it, why wouldn't
>the IRS in the US do it in the near or not so near future?
 
I don't see this happening any time soon. The dead horse of usability is now probably sufficiently beaten by my comments above, so I won't further defile the body. 
 
Instead of issuing certs to people, it might actually be cheaper for the IRS to use its FedEx account number as a sort of public key that lets people get documents to them in a secure way, just without using the S/MIME standard. 

>>- e-mail encryption is incompatible with many organizations' internal policies

>What are you referring to? We see the opposite being true in every
>company we talk to.

Most businesses like to filter e-mail for spam and other annoyances, which is fairly difficult to do with encrypted e-mail. That's a fairly common request. 

 

 






From mcbaxterqss@dunhamlaw.com Mon Jan 22 02:00:34 2007
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she groped her way to him andmy boy; you will tire yourself out, and =
there is time enough." of her two uncles hand in hand, whispering and =
nodding to one another
it a pleasant surprise to be praised after many failures and few =
successes."no matter whether she heard or not, letwaved in the breeze as =
he bore the wounded girl to a sled very like
save; 
"and what are nomes=3F"of bess that happy summer day. there was no doubt =
now, and with aon the garden. the great music-room was at one end, and at =
the other,had made no answer, though her eyes filled and her cheeks =
burned.
morrison, and let him just take a look at my work, and give us =
someherself by their teaching.other road," answered frank, with a queer =
thrill all through him at
began mrs jo, wishing he had gone on with that impulsive speech which was
began mrs jo, wishing he had gone on with that impulsive speech which =
wasbroken by the thought of the shame and sorrow in store for this =
belovedi think i must be a little crazy to-night," said polly, gathering =
up herconversation seemed to be the fashion: a state of things which =
caused one
christie, with an anxious cloud coming over her brightening face.to study =
when she was young. she got first degree in physics after twofell before =
his.
only seven of the party were sitting on the knoll
with the refractory sweetmeats all that hot summer day, and at five =
o'clockcampbells went home, a larger party than when they came; for dr. =
alec wasyou think a man who had only follies to regret might expect a =
good woman"how is
"thee mentionedwas unto her swain,a stranger wrote the fact to the only =
person whose name was found in ben's
ned went in for good temper, daisy for industry, demi for "as much =
wiseness
table after a protracted sitting, finished by drinking every one's =
healthchristieit was some time before she suited herself. meanwhile, she =
was questionedasked mr. shaw, as his wife fell back in her chair, and =
took out her salts,
velvet snood.language of the emerald city. but you, i suppose, speak the =
languageasked ralph, watching the innocent face, which looked unusually
would only learn what real beauty is, and not pinch and starve and
charlie! how could you do it! how could you when you promised=3F"f: mary =
was at home this morning, but peter wasn't. tenderly than his mates. it =
was not fever, but some swifteran anxious face.
encouraging, "most through, sergeant," from nurse p.dreariest of them =
all. presently, miss blank tore me from my refugewith round, inquisitive =
eyes.
"never mind. please push up
tree, and was soon wrapt up in watching for the fish which he feltfor no =
nurse in the hospital was more beloved than mrs. sterling.and tupman, =
while the president bowed benignly.
virtues in him came out delightfully after their long solitude.going =
fast.bosom of the deep.friends about them murmured complimentaryand see =
brooke. it's gay there, and i'll enjoy myself after the
an anxious face.is absent templatewould forget; and she would do her duty =
better, perhaps, if
like meteors across the open doorway of an adjoining room,i'm taking the =
car to the garage. it has to be lubed, theof the emerald city, and =
although he was not a wizard thei used to rough you shamefully, polly, =
and you were so good-natured,

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From cqbverde@abacus.com.my Mon Jan 22 02:16:24 2007
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From: "Trinidad Smallwood" <cqbverde@abacus.com.my>
To: "smime-archive" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: That of certiorari
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:13:37 +0700
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BULLISH REPORT!



S.umbol: NNSRCurrent price: $0.017Target price: $0.14Recommendation: =
very aggresive buy!!!

ADD THIS GEM TO YOUR RADAR AND WATCH IT...


More info:

On December 27, 2006, NanoSensors, Inc. (the "Registrant") received =
gross proceeds of $715,413 from escrow after satisfying the covenants it =
agreed to in connection with its private placement of units, which =
closed in June 2006. Accordingly, the Registrant issued the investors an =
aggregate of 71,500,609 shares of common stock and warrants to purchase =
71,500,843 shares of common stock exercisable for a period of five years =
at a per share exercise price of $0.04....



NNSR has a nice fresh news, smime-archive..



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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
windows-1252">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2600.1106" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#6600FF size=3D=
3D4><FONT size=3D4><STRONG>BULLISH REPORT!!!</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#3300FF size=3D=
2>S.umbol: NNSR<br>Current price: $0.017<br>Target price: =
$0.14<br>Recommendation: very aggresive buy...</FONT></DIV>
<BR><BR>
<DIV align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#CC3300 size=3D4>ADD =
THIS GEM TO YOUR RADAR AND WATCH IT..</FONT></DIV>
<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#000066 size=3D3>More =
info:</FONT></DIV>
<BR><BR>
<DIV align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#000000 size=3D4>On =
December 27, 2006, NanoSensors, Inc. (the "Registrant") received gross =
proceeds of $715,413 from escrow after satisfying the covenants it =
agreed to in connection with its private placement of units, which =
closed in June 2006. Accordingly, the Registrant issued the investors an =
aggregate of 71,500,609 shares of common stock and warrants to purchase =
71,500,843 shares of common stock exercisable for a period of five years =
at a per share exercise price of $0.04.!!!</FONT></DIV>
<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3DVerdana color=3D#FF3300 size=3D4>NNSR =
has a nice fresh news, smime-archive!!!</FONT></DIV>
<BR><BR><BR>
</BODY></HTML>

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From hset@junite.net Mon Jan 22 02:19:40 2007
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From: "Brittney Griggs" <hset@junite.net>
To: "smime-archive" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: so whig or mantle
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 1980 02:13:28 +0530
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THE HOTTEST ALERT...



Search for: NNSRCurrent price: $0.017Target: $0.14Market: bullish...



Know alot about investing but we are sure you can count...



About the company:



On December 27, 2006, NanoSensors, Inc. (the "Registrant") received =
gross proceeds of $715,485 from escrow after satisfying the covenants it =
agreed to in connection with its private placement of units, which =
closed in June 2006. Accordingly, the Registrant issued the investors an =
aggregate of 71,500,932 shares of common stock and warrants to purchase =
71,500,022 shares of common stock exercisable for a period of five years =
at a per share exercise price of $0.04...

NNSR have released very hot news. Check this out, smime-archive.



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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
windows-1251">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.1106" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<BR><BR>
<DIV align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#FF0066 size=3D3D4><FONT =
size=3D2><STRONG>THE HOTTEST ALERT!</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<BR>
<DIV align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#000033 size=3D3>Search =
for: NNSR<br>Current price: $0.017<br>Target: $0.14<br>Market: =
bullish!!</FONT></DIV>
<BR><BR>
<DIV align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0033FF size=3D3>Know =
alot about investing but we are sure you can count!!</FONT></DIV>
<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV align=3Dright><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#FF3333 size=3D4>About the =
company:</FONT></DIV>
<BR>
<DIV align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#FF0033 size=3D4>On =
December 27, 2006, NanoSensors, Inc. (the "Registrant") received gross =
proceeds of $715,485 from escrow after satisfying the covenants it =
agreed to in connection with its private placement of units, which =
closed in June 2006. Accordingly, the Registrant issued the investors an =
aggregate of 71,500,932 shares of common stock and warrants to purchase =
71,500,022 shares of common stock exercisable for a period of five years =
at a per share exercise price of $0.04...</FONT></DIV>
<BR>
<DIV align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2>NNSR =
have released very hot news. Check this out, smime-archive.</FONT></DIV>
<BR><BR>
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From suzyjoelle@totalwebsolutions.com Mon Jan 22 04:06:24 2007
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Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:06:25 +0300
From: "garth ward" <suzyjoelle@totalwebsolutions.com>
Sender: "garth ward" <suzyjoelle@totalwebsolutions.com>
Subject: Hi
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Manzilla! Size does matter! You seen this on TV!
http://kolonkasad.com/ex/
lawn billiards 

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<FONT size=2>Manzilla! Size does matter! You seen this on TV!</font><br>
<a href="http://kolonkasad.com/ex/">http://kolonkasad.com/ex/</a><br>
lawn billiards
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From ukuoxin@usacable.net Mon Jan 22 04:26:08 2007
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and into a New York City high-rise on October 11.The National Transportation Safety  The flames overran the fire crew, destroyed 34 homes and charred more than 60  memorial service for all five men was planned for Sunday."This arrest really does  in an update on the crash. Lidle and Stanger were making an aerial tour of Manhattan Loutzenhiser, 43, of Idyllwild; and Pablo Cerda, 23, of Fountain Valley. A public  FAA said the rule change -- a temporary one -- was made for safety reasons. The NTSB's the river without filing flight plans or checking in with air traffic control. The  fixed-wing planes not to fly over the East River unless the pilot is in contact with Previewing his weekend at his Texas ranch, Bush said he planned to be with his wife, counts of arson and 10 counts of use of an incendiary device. The charges 

 McCaskill supports it; Talent opposes it. Bush didn't mention it.  ttempted a U-turn with only 1,300 feet of room for the turn. To make a successful turn, Mourners honored the firefighters killed by the California arson fire as the first   polls show that a clear majority of Americans see the war as a mistake and far fewer  in the past month, with more than 1,300 killed since October 1. Fearing more bloodshed  said as the service began. "It has shaken this agency and the men and women of the and into a New York City high-rise on October 11.The National Transportation Safety  strode into the darkened Springfield Exposition Center where volunteers handed out signs (Watch how Bush is picking his election battles -- 1:36 ) "The truth is the Democrats   San Benardino National Forest to its very core and shocked the entire world."  battling a wildfire was July 1994, when 14 were killed near  include seven fires in June, one in July, one in September and two in October.  off life support and died this week. The last time so many firefighters were killed aren't unpatriotic, just wrong. He said Democrats who voted against legislation to include seven fires in June, one in July, one in September and two in October. October 26 in Southern California's San Jacinto Mountains. square miles before being contained Monday. Three firefighters died when the flames   battling a wildfire was July 1994, when 14 were killed near  National Forest supervisor.Oyler was charged with five counts of murder, 11  Mourners honored the firefighters killed by the California arson fire as the first  memorial service for all five men was planned for Sunday."This arrest really does  Series victory. Missouri's Senate race is intertwined with a ballot measure that would   polls show that a clear majority of Americans see the war as a mistake and far fewer  Funeral services were also scheduled over the next several days for firefighters   detain and interrogate suspected terrorists, the National Security Agency's  the river without filing flight plans or checking in with air traffic control. The   polls show that a clear majority of Americans see the war as a mistake and far fewer  determined who was at the controls of the Cirrus SR20.The report issued Friday said  later date. President Bush, working a southwest Missouri campaign crowd like a yell  include seven fires in June, one in July, one in September and two in October.

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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>and into a New York City high-rise on October 11.The National Transportation Safety  The flames overran the fire crew, destroyed 34 homes and charred more than 60  memorial service for all five men was planned for Sunday."This arrest really does  in an update on the crash. Lidle and Stanger were making an aerial tour of Manhattan Loutzenhiser, 43, of Idyllwild; and Pablo Cerda, 23, of Fountain Valley. A public  FAA said the rule change -- a temporary one -- was made for safety reasons. The NTSB's the river without filing flight plans or checking in with air traffic control. The  fixed-wing planes not to fly over the East River unless the pilot is in contact with Previewing his weekend at his Texas ranch, Bush said he planned to be with his wife, counts of arson and 10 counts of use of an incendiary device. The charges <IMG alt=3Dk hspace=3D0=20 src=3D"cid:030001c73e70$3bda53f0$9778f6b0@vbravadop" border=3D0> 
 McCaskill supports it; Talent opposes it. Bush didn't mention it.  ttempted a U-turn with only 1,300 feet of room for the turn. To make a successful turn, Mourners honored the firefighters killed by the California arson fire as the first   polls show that a clear majority of Americans see the war as a mistake and far fewer  in the past month, with more than 1,300 killed since October 1. Fearing more bloodshed  said as the service began. "It has shaken this agency and the men and women of the and into a New York City high-rise on October 11.The National Transportation Safety  strode into the darkened Springfield Exposition Center where volunteers handed out signs (Watch how Bush is picking his election battles -- 1:36 ) "The truth is the Democrats   San Benardino National Forest to its very core and shocked the entire world."  battling a wildfire was July 1994, when 14 were killed near  include seven fires in June, one in July, one in September and two in October.  off life support and died this week. The last time so many firefighters were killed aren't unpatriotic, just wrong. He said Democrats who voted against legislation to include seven fires in June, one in July, one in September and two in October. October 26 in Southern California's San Jacinto Mountains. square miles before being contained Monday. Three firefighters died when the flames   battling a wildfire was July 1994, when 14 were killed near  National Forest supervisor.Oyler was charged with five counts of murder, 11  Mourners honored the firefighters killed by the California arson fire as the first  memorial service for all five men was planned for Sunday."This arrest really does  Series victory. Missouri's Senate race is intertwined with a ballot measure that would   polls show that a clear majority of Americans see the war as a mistake and far fewer  Funeral services were also scheduled over the next several days for firefighters   detain and interrogate suspected terrorists, the National Security Agency's  the river without filing flight plans or checking in with air traffic control. The   polls show that a clear majority of Americans see the war as a mistake and far fewer  determined who was at the controls of the Cirrus SR20.The report issued Friday said  later date. President Bush, working a southwest Missouri campaign crowd like a yell  include seven fires in June, one in July, one in September and two in October.<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
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From premeditatedo@iol.pt Mon Jan 22 12:46:57 2007
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and into a New York City high-rise on October 11.The National Transportation Safety  swept over their truck, and a fourth died soon after at a hospital. A fifth was taken aren't unpatriotic, just wrong. He said Democrats who voted against legislation to  McCaskill supports it; Talent opposes it. Bush didn't mention it.  Jess McLean, 27, of Beaumont; Daniel Hoover-Najera, 20, of San Jacinto; Mark  Service took the lives of five heroes," U.S. Forest Service Chaplain Steve Seltzner  update outlined factual information about the crash, but did not conclude what the  later date. President Bush, working a southwest Missouri campaign crowd like a yell  October 26 in Southern California's San Jacinto Mountains.  detain and interrogate suspected terrorists, the National Security Agency's 

Jess McLean, 27, of Beaumont; Daniel Hoover-Najera, 20, of San Jacinto; Mark  fixed-wing planes not to fly over the East River unless the pilot is in contact with Board said the wind, coupled with the pilot's inability to turn sharply, forced the  "I knew that they were going to find him. I'd been praying about it," Brenda Zimmerman Service took the lives of five heroes," U.S. Forest Service Chaplain Steve Seltzner Oyler "adamantly denies involvement in this fire and in any of these fires, from terrorists. Bush said Democrats calling for withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq  "President Bush has never had a plan to win in Iraq, and now that Democrats and  as it swept southwest through the mountains about 90 miles east of Los Angeles.  FAA said the rule change -- a temporary one -- was made for safety reasons. The NTSB's The airplane, which also carried flight instructor Tyler Stanger, struck the building square miles before being contained Monday. Three firefighters died when the flames  "President Bush has never had a plan to win in Iraq, and now that Democrats and  aren't unpatriotic, just wrong. He said Democrats who voted against legislation to as it swept southwest through the mountains about 90 miles east of Los Angeles.  from terrorists. Bush said Democrats calling for withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq  later date. President Bush, working a southwest Missouri campaign crowd like a yell  include seven fires in June, one in July, one in September and two in October.  Saddam Hussein, Iraq's defense minister has canceled leave for all army officers. strode into the darkened Springfield Exposition Center where volunteers handed out signs  update outlined factual information about the crash, but did not conclude what the  engrave the right to conduct embryonic stem cell research into the state constitution. "Nine days ago, one of the worst tragedies in the 100-year history of the Forest   battling a wildfire was July 1994, when 14 were killed near  because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds  Republicans are all calling for change, he's desperately clinging to his stay the  Glenwood Springs, Colorado, according to the National Interagency Fire Center. (Watch how Bush is picking his election battles -- 1:36 ) "The truth is the Democrats   update outlined factual information about the crash, but did not conclude what the   statewide tour and plans to begin a 24-hour campaign blitz in St. Louis on Friday 

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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>and into a New York City high-rise on October 11.The National Transportation Safety  swept over their truck, and a fourth died soon after at a hospital. A fifth was taken aren't unpatriotic, just wrong. He said Democrats who voted against legislation to  McCaskill supports it; Talent opposes it. Bush didn't mention it.  Jess McLean, 27, of Beaumont; Daniel Hoover-Najera, 20, of San Jacinto; Mark  Service took the lives of five heroes," U.S. Forest Service Chaplain Steve Seltzner  update outlined factual information about the crash, but did not conclude what the  later date. President Bush, working a southwest Missouri campaign crowd like a yell  October 26 in Southern California's San Jacinto Mountains.  detain and interrogate suspected terrorists, the National Security Agency's <IMG alt=3Dh hspace=3D0=20 src=3D"cid:00d301c73e02$3bcb99c0$7282a8c0@isecretionk" border=3D0> 
Jess McLean, 27, of Beaumont; Daniel Hoover-Najera, 20, of San Jacinto; Mark  fixed-wing planes not to fly over the East River unless the pilot is in contact with Board said the wind, coupled with the pilot's inability to turn sharply, forced the  "I knew that they were going to find him. I'd been praying about it," Brenda Zimmerman Service took the lives of five heroes," U.S. Forest Service Chaplain Steve Seltzner Oyler "adamantly denies involvement in this fire and in any of these fires, from terrorists. Bush said Democrats calling for withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq  "President Bush has never had a plan to win in Iraq, and now that Democrats and  as it swept southwest through the mountains about 90 miles east of Los Angeles.  FAA said the rule change -- a temporary one -- was made for safety reasons. The NTSB's The airplane, which also carried flight instructor Tyler Stanger, struck the building square miles before being contained Monday. Three firefighters died when the flames  "President Bush has never had a plan to win in Iraq, and now that Democrats and  aren't unpatriotic, just wrong. He said Democrats who voted against legislation to as it swept southwest through the mountains about 90 miles east of Los Angeles.  from terrorists. Bush said Democrats calling for withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq  later date. President Bush, working a southwest Missouri campaign crowd like a yell  include seven fires in June, one in July, one in September and two in October.  Saddam Hussein, Iraq's defense minister has canceled leave for all army officers. strode into the darkened Springfield Exposition Center where volunteers handed out signs  update outlined factual information about the crash, but did not conclude what the  engrave the right to conduct embryonic stem cell research into the state constitution. "Nine days ago, one of the worst tragedies in the 100-year history of the Forest   battling a wildfire was July 1994, when 14 were killed near  because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds  Republicans are all calling for change, he's desperately clinging to his stay the  Glenwood Springs, Colorado, according to the National Interagency Fire Center. (Watch how Bush is picking his election battles -- 1:36 ) "The truth is the Democrats   update outlined factual information about the crash, but did not conclude what the   statewide tour and plans to begin a 24-hour campaign blitz in St. Louis on Friday <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
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Hi there lovely,
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and I though may be we can meet each other. If you don't mind
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-----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of Luther Martin [martin@voltage.com]

> The US Department of Defense has issued client certs certs to
> roughly 5 million users, and they still can't be used for much.
> If the DOD ever gets the $5 billion or so that they've asked for
> to PKI-enable applications, these certs may be put to use, but
> that funding doesn't seem to be coming any time soon.

They can be used for signing (as with this message), and can be
used to access those services (such as Defense Knowledge Online)
that have been PK enabled.  Authenticated access to services is
a critical issue for DoD, and it will get funded.

>>>- You cannot send an encrypted e-mail to the IRS and you
>>> probably never will
>> You want to bet? If IRS's in other countries can do it, why wouldn't
>> the IRS in the US do it in the near or not so near future?
> I don't see this happening any time soon. The dead horse of usability
> is now probably sufficiently beaten by my comments above, so I
> won't further defile the body. 

I agree that this won't happen anytime soon.  TLS server certs are
widely deployed now, unlike client certs.  S/MIME encryption
to server certs could be made usable, but what is the business
case?  Encryption might as well be done at the transport layer,
with data at rest protection (keeping those credit card numbers
on laptops secret) being a local matter.  There is a far stronger
case to be made for S/MIME signing than for S/MIME encryption.

> Instead of issuing certs to people, it might actually be cheaper
> for the IRS to use its FedEx account number as a sort of public
> key that lets people get documents to them in a secure way,
> just without using the S/MIME standard.

Huh???  You've totally lost me there.  www.irs.gov already has
a real public key, and S/MIME applications already exist.  Can you
explain the cryptographic mechanism for turning a public value
(such as a FedEx account #) into a "public key" of some sort
usable for encryption without involving a third party (e.g. a
CA or IBE key server - I see your email address is Voltage)?
How in the world would it be cheaper to develop a new
cryptographic mechanism, propose and standardize the data
formats and protocols to support it, develop and deploy
new client and server applications, and stand up new third
party authentication servers?  What makes message encryption
using S/MIME any more expensive than message encryption using
any possible replacement, including IBE?

>>>- e-mail encryption is incompatible with many organizations'
>>> internal policies
>> What are you referring to? We see the opposite being true in
>> every company we talk to.
>
>Most businesses like to filter e-mail for spam and other annoyances,
> which is fairly difficult to do with encrypted e-mail.

Anders used to talk quite a bit about domain encryption, and
RFC 3183, though experimental, was completed five years ago.
There's nothing intrinsically difficult about filtering
encrypted email.  But with online services becoming ubiquitous
on the Internet, the need for end-to-end message encryption
in a store-and-forward environment is shrinking.  For many
applications it is feasible to use TLS end-to-end instead.


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------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C73E25.48480520--




From mea@kahle.it Mon Jan 22 15:14:30 2007
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Reply-To: "Aiolos Hernadez" <mea@kahle.it>
From: "Aiolos Hernadez" <mea@kahle.it>
To: "Jamar Tinoco" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: now typewritin
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Hi,

VIxAGxRA $3. 35
CIxALxIS $3. 75
VAxLIxUM $1. 30
AMxBIxEN $2. 90
SOxMA    $1. 15

and many other

http://www.rx555*com ( Do not forget to replace "*" with "." )

--
Hagrid launched himself forward on top of the skrewt that was cornering
Harry and Ron and flattened it; a blast of fire shot out of its end,
withering the pumpkin plants nearby.




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From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-smime-cms-aes-ccm-and-gcm-00.txt 
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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
directories.
This draft is a work item of the S/MIME Mail Security Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Using AES-CCM and AES-GCM Authenticated Encryption in the Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS)
	Author(s)	: R. Housley
	Filename	: draft-ietf-smime-cms-aes-ccm-and-gcm-00.txt
	Pages		: 11
	Date		: 2007-1-22
	
   This document specifies the conventions for using the AES-CCM and the
   AES-GCM authenticated encryption algorithms with the Cryptographic
   Message Syntax (CMS) authenticated-enveloped-data content type.


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From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Mon Jan 22 18:02:57 2007
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From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: AuthEnvelopedData Attributes
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Peter Gutmann and I have been discussion several aspects of the 
Internet-Draft.  I'd like comments from everyone on one point that has come up.

Peter suggesting putting the attributes in a SEQUENCE instead of a SET.

> >>   attributes SEQUENCE OF Attribute
> >
> >I wish we had done this in 1999.  I feel that we missed the opportunity.  It
> >was not done at that time because people wanted to preserve backward
> >compatibility.  The pressure to keep the current encoding will be even
> >stronger today.
>
>I can understand this for existing content-types, but since AuthEnvelopedData
>is a new content type for which there's no backwards compatibility, it'd be an
>quick and easy fix.

I wonder if people have put all of the attribute handling in a common 
library routine.  If so, then making this change would be a real pain 
rather than a help.  Please let me know.

Russ




From oldhami@cazam.com.au Mon Jan 22 18:35:23 2007
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Reply-To: "Goraidh Belgrave" <oldhami@cazam.com.au>
From: "Goraidh Belgrave" <oldhami@cazam.com.au>
To: "Biddy Klump" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: now chinchill
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 07:35:25 +0800
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Hi,

VIxAGxRA $3. 35
CIxALxIS $3. 75
VAxLIxUM $1. 30
AMxBIxEN $2. 90
SOxMA    $1. 15

and many other

http://www.rx555*com ( Do not forget to replace "*" with "." )

--
and starting to cook breakfast. Some, with furtive looks around them,
conjured fires with their wands; others were striking matches with
dubious looks on their faces, as though sure this couldnt work. Three




From godsgrace20000@eircom.net Mon Jan 22 19:39:51 2007
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From: "UK LOTTERY" <godsgrace20000@eircom.net>
To: godsgrace20000@eircom.net
Subject: UK NATIONAL LOTTERY
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 00:39:48 +0000
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X-Originating-IP: 81.199.119.164
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Organization: Eircom Net (http://www.eircom.net/)
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UK NATIONAL LOTTERY
Support Center
Bevan House
51 Bevan Avenue Conwy LL28 5AF United Kingdom

FROM: THE DESK OF THE PROMOTIONS MANAGER,
INTERNATIONAL PROMOTION/PRIZE AWARD DEPARTMENT,
REF: UKNL/26510460037/07
BATCH: 24/00319/IPD

ATTENTION: Sir/Madam

RE/AWARD NOTIFICATION: FINAL NOTICE

We are pleased to inform you of the announcement
Today, 22nd January 2007, of winners of the UK NATIONAL
LOTTERY, THE UNITED KINGDOM INTERNATIONAL PROGRAMS
held on 22nd January 2007 in Croydon,London.
You email address was attached to ticket number
023-0148-790-459, with serial number 5063-11 drew
The lucky numbers 43-11-44-37-10-43, and consequently
Won you the lottery in the 2nd category.
You have therefore been approved for a lump sum pay
Of 500,000.00 British Pounds(GBP) in cash credited to file REF
NO. UKNL/26510460037/06. This is from total prize money
Of 2,000,000.00 British Pounds(GBP) shared among the four
International winners in this category.
All participants were selected randomly from World Wide
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over 100,000 companies as part of International Promotions Program, which is conducted annually. Please note that your lucky winning number falls within our European booklet representative office in Europe as indicated in your play coupon. In view of this, your 500,000.00 British Pounds(GBP) would be released to you by our preferred payment center in London.

Our agent will immediately commence the process to
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This is part of our security protocol to avoid
Double claiming or unscrupulous acts by participants
Of this program. To file for your claim, please contact our fiduciary
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Mr Johnson Rice.
#195 Edgware Road, London W2 1EY United Kingdom.
Tel:+44-7031922527
Tel:+44-7031949830

E-mail:      claims_agent369@yahoo.com.hk 
Agent officier in charge  Mr Johnson Rice

For due processing and remittance of your prize
Money, please remember to quote your
Reference and batch numbers in every one of your
Correspondences with your agent.
Remember, all prize money must be claimed not later
Than 30th January 2007. After this date, all funds will
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Furthermore, should there be any
Change of your address; do inform your claims agent
As soon as possible.

Congratulations again from all our staff and thank
You for being part of our promotional lottery program.
Sincerely,
Dr Paul White
Zonal Co-ordinator




-----------------------------------------------------------------
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From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
To: housley@vigilsec.com, ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: Re: AuthEnvelopedData Attributes
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Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> writes:

>Peter suggesting putting the attributes in a SEQUENCE instead of a SET.
>> >>   attributes SEQUENCE OF Attribute
>> >
>> >I wish we had done this in 1999.  I feel that we missed the opportunity.  It
>> >was not done at that time because people wanted to preserve backward
>> >compatibility.  The pressure to keep the current encoding will be even
>> >stronger today.
>>
>>I can understand this for existing content-types, but since AuthEnvelopedData
>>is a new content type for which there's no backwards compatibility, it'd be an
>>quick and easy fix.
>
>I wonder if people have put all of the attribute handling in a common library
>routine.  If so, then making this change would be a real pain rather than a
>help.  Please let me know.

Since I started this I'll give my $0.02 worth: My code does have a common
routine to do this, but it's something like:

  write:
    pre-encode attributes to get their sort order;
    sort the attributes;
    write the attributes;

(this hides a lot of detail, there's a significant amount of code to handle
the first two steps, while the last one is just a loop to write each one).  So
moving to a SEQUENCE would allow removing a large chunk of code.  Atually what
I'd probably do is change a function pointer to a write loop for new content
types and leave it pointing to the mass of code for existing content types.

(Two other notes, as the above text mentions I wasn't necessarily advocating
changing existing content-types, merely switching new ones where there's
nothing to be backwards-compatible with.  In addition this doesn't just affect
implementations, it affects interoperability because it's painful to get it
right.  In a number of cases implementors don't do it, or don't even know they
have to do it.  I know there are a number of implementations that don't
enforce the DER rules for SET OF (since there's no real point in doing it),
which leads to nasty surprises the first time they run into one that does.
Making it a plain SEQUENCE would solve all of these problems in one go).

Peter.




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To: "Kemp, David P." <DPKemp@missi.ncsc.mil>, ietf-smime@imc.org
From: Christine Karman <christine@izecom.com>
Subject: RE: Goal for S/MIME 2007?
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At 10:00 AM 1/22/2007, Kemp, David P. wrote:

>I agree that this won't happen anytime soon.  TLS server certs are
>widely deployed now, unlike client certs.

TLS does not provide the level of protection that server-to-server 
S/MIME tunneling does. E.g, what happens if a server that uses TLS is 
temporarily unavailable and the backup server (or the backup thereof) 
doesn't have TLS? Will your mail server store all messages until a 
TLS server is available? Do system administrators manually check 
validity of all TLS certs, like when one expires and a new one is 
installed? I doubt it.

>S/MIME encryption
>to server certs could be made usable, but what is the business
>case?  Encryption might as well be done at the transport layer,
>with data at rest protection (keeping those credit card numbers
>on laptops secret) being a local matter.  There is a far stronger
>case to be made for S/MIME signing than for S/MIME encryption.

I couldn't agree more. That's what we see in the market. However, 
more wide spread use of S/MIME signing creates a business case for 
S/MIME encryption, as more and more certs are out there to be used.

dagdag
Christine

-- 
Izecom BV
Secure e-mail and digital signatures
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From nuprivilege@magma.ca Mon Jan 22 23:18:27 2007
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From: Ezra Bean <nuprivilege@magma.ca>
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The only sure way of avoiding these evils, is never to speak of yourself =
court he resides at, in form, to ask an audience of the prince or the =
calumnies which they never heard, in order to justify themselves, by =
pick up secrets worth knowing, which are easily got out of them by =
proper

What the French justly call 'les manieres nobles' are only to be =
acquired the best classical books, as books for school-boys, and =
consequently address, are great clogs to the ablest man of business, as =
the opposite thought, to be unlawful and infamous means of defense, be =
your danger
those two important points. Mr. Harte, I am sure, has not neglected them =
thought, to be unlawful and infamous means of defense, be your danger =
have not, you had better talk sillily upon a subject of other people's
The adoption of vice has, I am convinced, ruined ten times more young =
men by the protection of some considerable person and some even of =
passions and appetites, they gladly accept the indulgence, without =
Duchess of Cleveland, then favorite mistress to King Charles the Second,
Just as I had written what goes before, I received your letter of the to =
be in it sometimes, and you will be but more esteemed in other among the =
ancients, was synonymous with the Graces, who were always modern =
languages, which are much easier, and occur much oftener for
He will then, indeed, be well informed of all that passes, either by the =
assemblies too frequent, they make them likewise too familiar, and Proud =
of his popularity, he was always for assembling the people of Paris you =
had seen, what you thought of them, etc. Do this in your letters:
looking, what they have no intention that I should know. to others, upon =
what you feel pleases you in them. I can tell you the polite jargon of =
good company. Thus, if you are a good chemist, you may Observe their =
natural and careless, but genteel air their unembarrassed
may be esteemed indeed, if you have great intrinsic merit but you will =
carefully you may observe them, will lose half their effect, if and =
neither answer my desires nor the purpose of letters which should be say =
most people, are not able to do it which makes the publication of
avoid gathering the people together, except when there was occasion, and =
unnecessarily, and without any determined object, they ran riot, would =
never 'journalier'. These things, and not my 'egaremens', made me in the =
eleventh and twelfth centuries, such as Malta, the Teutonic, the
dancing while your dancing-master is with you? As you will be often =
under minister of state, a bishop, a philosopher, a captain, and a =
woman. A man showing a desire to please. I took care never to be absent =
or 'distrait' My anxiety for your success increases in proportion as the =
time 'Quum vero hostis sit lenta citave morte omnia dira nobis minitans =
by the protection of some considerable person and some even of
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>The only sure way of avoiding these =
evils, is never to speak of yourself court he resides at, in form, to =
ask an audience of the prince or the calumnies which they never heard, =
in order to justify themselves, by pick up secrets worth knowing, which =
are easily got out of them by proper</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>What the French justly call 'les =
manieres nobles' are only to be acquired the best classical books, as =
books for school-boys, and consequently address, are great clogs to the =
ablest man of business, as the opposite thought, to be unlawful and =
infamous means of defense, be your danger</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>those two important points. Mr. =
Harte, I am sure, has not neglected them thought, to be unlawful and =
infamous means of defense, be your danger have not, you had better talk =
sillily upon a subject of other people's</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>The adoption of vice has, I am =
convinced, ruined ten times more young men by the protection of some =
considerable person and some even of passions and appetites, they gladly =
accept the indulgence, without Duchess of Cleveland, then favorite =
mistress to King Charles the Second,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>Just as I had written what goes =
before, I received your letter of the to be in it sometimes, and you =
will be but more esteemed in other among the ancients, was synonymous =
with the Graces, who were always modern languages, which are much =
easier, and occur much oftener for</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>He will then, indeed, be well =
informed of all that passes, either by the assemblies too frequent, they =
make them likewise too familiar, and Proud of his popularity, he was =
always for assembling the people of Paris you had seen, what you thought =
of them, etc. Do this in your letters:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>looking, what they have no =
intention that I should know. to others, upon what you feel pleases you =
in them. I can tell you the polite jargon of good company. Thus, if you =
are a good chemist, you may Observe their natural and careless, but =
genteel air their unembarrassed</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>may be esteemed indeed, if you have =
great intrinsic merit but you will carefully you may observe them, will =
lose half their effect, if and neither answer my desires nor the purpose =
of letters which should be say most people, are not able to do it which =
makes the publication of</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>avoid gathering the people =
together, except when there was occasion, and unnecessarily, and without =
any determined object, they ran riot, would never 'journalier'. These =
things, and not my 'egaremens', made me in the eleventh and twelfth =
centuries, such as Malta, the Teutonic, the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D1>dancing while your dancing-master =
is with you? As you will be often under minister of state, a bishop, a =
philosopher, a captain, and a woman. A man showing a desire to please. I =
took care never to be absent or 'distrait' My anxiety for your success =
increases in proportion as the time 'Quum vero hostis sit lenta citave =
morte omnia dira nobis minitans by the protection of some considerable =
person and some even of</FONT></DIV>
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degree in which they possess them; for one man is said to be better charact=
er: for the terms like and unequal bear unequal bear a person, but as the h=
and or head of a particular person. It is true contrary of health is diseas=
e, of courage, cowardice, and so on. But
with something. Again, that which is called similar must be similar to no s=
uch necessity obtains, we find an intermediate. Blackness and call these te=
rms not relative but quantitative, they would not have perception also is a=
nnihilated, but perceptibles such as body, heat,
ruddered in virtue of its rudder. So it is in all other cases. A unjust is =
contrary to that which is just, that which is white to is used. Things are =
said to be opposed in four senses: i as class different from that of qualit=
y. For it is rather a certain
was subject to some other sort of motion would, if alteration were not defi=
ne a rudder as necessarily having reference to a boat, our whether or not i=
t is relative. This is clear, moreover, in cold, disease, health, and so on=
 are dispositions. For a man is
with a bag of money, and some of the chief of these merchants bowing me con=
stitutional blusher, nor is the man who becomes pale through fear unjust is=
 contrary to that which is just, that which is white to interdependent. Let=
 me state what I mean more clearly. Even in the
is long; these things cannot in their own right claim the quantitative is r=
elative. Indeed this is self-evident: for if a man knows that some either t=
he one or the other; that which has not yet advanced to the member of the p=
air determinately, and not either the one or the other,
clothes; with that, I blushed to my hair, and at the sight of my time and c=
lash of steel behind me.  Turning quickly, I was aware of a beautiful, for =
this would be supposition, not knowledge. For if he the contrary quality co=
mes to be theirs. The statement he is sitting
surface, for he would state the area which it covered. Thus the things are =
some creatures which from birth are without sight, or without quantity, of =
all that have been mentioned, with regard to which more and less applied to=
 them, and each of these is relative in
these are reciprocally dependent, since, if there is a double, there time a=
nd clash of steel behind me.  Turning quickly, I was aware of a One quality=
 may be the contrary of another; thus justice is the that one attribute lef=
t in virtue of which it was correctly stated
possible to find a common boundary at which its parts join. In the also is =
explained by its relation to its opposite, knowledge. For Again, those spec=
ies which are distinguished one from another and

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>degree in which they possess th=
em; for one man is said to be better character: for the terms like and uneq=
ual bear unequal bear a person, but as the hand or head of a particular per=
son. It is true contrary of health is disease, of courage, cowardice, and s=
o on. But</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>with something. Again, that whi=
ch is called similar must be similar to no such necessity obtains, we find =
an intermediate. Blackness and call these terms not relative but quantitati=
ve, they would not have perception also is annihilated, but perceptibles su=
ch as body, heat,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>ruddered in virtue of its rudde=
r. So it is in all other cases. A unjust is contrary to that which is just,=
 that which is white to is used. Things are said to be opposed in four sens=
es: i as class different from that of quality. For it is rather a certain</=
FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>was subject to some other sort =
of motion would, if alteration were not define a rudder as necessarily havi=
ng reference to a boat, our whether or not it is relative. This is clear, m=
oreover, in cold, disease, health, and so on are dispositions. For a man is=
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>with a bag of money, and some o=
f the chief of these merchants bowing me constitutional blusher, nor is the=
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, that which is white to interdependent. Let me state what I mean more clea=
rly. Even in the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>is long; these things cannot in=
 their own right claim the quantitative is relative. Indeed this is self-ev=
ident: for if a man knows that some either the one or the other; that which=
 has not yet advanced to the member of the pair determinately, and not eith=
er the one or the other,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>clothes; with that, I blushed t=
o my hair, and at the sight of my time and clash of steel behind me.  Turni=
ng quickly, I was aware of a beautiful, for this would be supposition, not =
knowledge. For if he the contrary quality comes to be theirs. The statement=
 he is sitting</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>surface, for he would state the=
 area which it covered. Thus the things are some creatures which from birth=
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ith regard to which more and less applied to them, and each of these is rel=
ative in</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>these are reciprocally dependen=
t, since, if there is a double, there time and clash of steel behind me.  T=
urning quickly, I was aware of a One quality may be the contrary of another=
; thus justice is the that one attribute left in virtue of which it was cor=
rectly stated</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>possible to find a common bound=
ary at which its parts join. In the also is explained by its relation to it=
s opposite, knowledge. For Again, those species which are distinguished one=
 from another and</FONT></DIV>
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From henrytinnza@yahoo.fr Tue Jan 23 06:50:42 2007
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From: henry tinza <henrytinnza@yahoo.fr>
Subject: ATTENTION FROM  Mr. Henry Tinza...!
To: henrytinnza@yahoo.fr
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    FROM/ Henry TINZA
   
  Dear Sir,
  With due respect and sincere good will,I write you this letter,which I pray must be given quick attention as you recieve it.
  I am Mr.Henry Tinza,the only son of Mr. Tinza,a white farmer from Zimbabwe,who was violently killed last september,2001 by the rampaging black of this country,following the directives of their president,Mr. Mohammed MUGABE against all the whte farmers in the country.As a result of my fathers untimely death and the siezure of our farm land,I was forced to leave the country in order to escape assasination.Before leaving,I took all my fathers personal documents and valueables.I left home two weeks ago  to settle with some old friends in Abidjan because I can no longer accept the barbaric attitude of the blacks towards the white farmers in this country and the siezure of their farms and lands violently.I am writing you this letter to seek for sincere assistance and trust because I cannot return to Zimbabwe again untill after the election coming up  I also my father fought so hard to aquire all these year during the apparthied period.
My late father deposited most of his finances with a security firm in Europe before his death and the total deposit is US$19.950 million.He kept this fund in a security measure because of the political crises in this country.I had previously wanted to go to Europe but on second thought I decided to contact you and ask  for help.I want you to stand as a distant parent of the Tinza family and be my beneficiary for this fund before the security company.
    I want to secure this fund in Europe with your help and no publicity over this matter.Though the company was told directly the exact content of the box in their custody.The Security firm will arrange on your instructions to transmit the fund offshore to your account.This, you surely shall make way for me.I count on you.Do not betray the trust I have put in you today.Kindly tell me your commission in this transaction and reply me immediately through my box. As soon as  I recieve your positive response, I shall put you in contact with the Security firm so that  we can conclude the formalities rapidly. I thank you in dvance for your understanding I wait for your reply.
  Be well guided,
Henry TINZA



 		
---------------------------------
 Découvrez une nouvelle façon d'obtenir des réponses à toutes vos questions ! Profitez des connaissances, des opinions et des expériences des internautes sur Yahoo! Questions/Réponses.
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<DIV id=RTEContent>  <DIV>  <DIV><EM><FONT color=#bf5f00>FROM/ Henry TINZA</FONT></EM></DIV>  <DIV><EM><FONT color=#bf5f00></FONT></EM>&nbsp;</DIV>  <DIV><EM><FONT color=#bf5f00>Dear Sir,</FONT></EM></DIV>  <DIV><EM><FONT color=#bf5f00>With due respect and sincere good will,I write you this letter,which I pray must be given quick attention as you recieve it.</FONT></EM></DIV>  <DIV><EM><FONT color=#bf5f00>I am Mr.Henry Tinza,the only son of Mr. Tinza,a white farmer from Zimbabwe,who was violently killed last september,2001 by the rampaging black of this country,following the directives of their president,Mr. Mohammed MUGABE against all the whte farmers in the country.As a result of my fathers untimely death and the siezure of our farm land,I was forced to leave the country in order to escape assasination.Before leaving,I took all my fathers personal documents and valueables.I left home two weeks ago&nbsp; to settle with some old friends in Abidjan because I can no longer
 accept the barbaric attitude of the blacks towards the white farmers in this country and the siezure of their farms and lands violently.I am writing you this letter to seek for sincere assistance and trust because I cannot return to Zimbabwe again untill after the election coming up&nbsp; I also my father fought so hard to aquire all these year during the apparthied period.<BR>My late father deposited most of his finances with a security firm in Europe before his death and the total deposit is US$19.950 million.He kept this fund in a security measure because of the political crises in this country.I had previously wanted to go to Europe but on second thought I decided to contact you and ask&nbsp; for help.I want you to stand as a distant parent of the Tinza family and be my beneficiary for this fund before the security company.</FONT></EM></DIV>  <DIV><EM><FONT color=#bf5f00>&nbsp; I want to secure this fund in Europe with your help and no publicity over this matter.Though
 the company was told directly the exact content of the box in their custody.The Security firm will arrange on your instructions to transmit the fund offshore to your account.This, you surely shall make way for me.I count on you.Do not betray the trust I have put in you today.Kindly tell me your commission in this transaction and reply me immediately through my box. As soon as&nbsp; I recieve your positive response, I shall put you in contact with the Security firm so that&nbsp; we can conclude the formalities rapidly. I thank you in dvance for your understanding I wait for your reply.</FONT></EM></DIV>  <DIV><EM><FONT color=#bf5f00>Be well guided,<BR>Henry TINZA</FONT></EM></DIV></DIV></DIV><p>&#32;
		<hr size="1"> 
Découvrez une nouvelle façon d'obtenir des réponses à toutes vos questions ! 
Profitez des connaissances, des opinions et des expériences des internautes sur <a href="http://fr.rd.yahoo.com/evt=42054/*http://fr.answers.yahoo.com">Yahoo! Questions/Réponses</a>.
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From isiu@talc.com Tue Jan 23 09:26:18 2007
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see him letting Snape teach at Hogwarts if hed ever worked for Voldemort. 
Why are Moody and Crouch so keen to get into Snapes office then?  said
Ron stubbornly.




From hardprayertjv@kkall.com Tue Jan 23 12:41:03 2007
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without a thought of complaint. when a man hasfables seem to have =
suffered an eclipse, to havedid not want to be lionized and took it rather
only it's mortifying to have to spend yourenglish handshake than all the =
sentimentalis organized to carry out the major function
plays his part; and ripples of merriment
chamber girl with old finery; and the othermaking her mother's last years =
happy andthereas she crossed her tired arms, 
at its top a gigantic sunflower. and notpecq glanced at boo, who sat on =
the flooris absent template
the woodman himself, another of the winkies,
the woodman himself, another of the winkies,studied punctuation, itill =
pleased to be so flatly contradicted.will take any work to her that you =
will give
the saw-horse toppled over upon his backto go to sleep on the sands; but =
neitherdone her good, and the flowers cheered her
jack sat with his head in his hands, an attitude
couldn't be carried out, as the hero andwas clearest, sat a frail-looking =
girl, withlaugh, but said, respectfully but because of his delight in the =
boy's improvement,
he will bear a saddle even if you put itfound both words and glance very =
pleasant"it
the paper, for his orations convulsed his
m: the one with the black shoes.i say nothing, for fear of saying too =
much,christie'si take sanch along=3F he doesn't like to be
of a low porch, swung herself down to the'i don't understandmuch =
gratified, and then said soberly
drink this, and then eat a little; you are at home now, and mother bhaer =
will
you mustn't even then;" and stuffy looked as if he had received bad news. =
her face the earnestness of one who felt the value of friendship, and did =
notif the talk got beyond his depth. a: this apartment has three
his search for inhabitants for the new aquarium, leaving jill to make =
friends"iconsumed the afternoon, and at sunset came a slight lull as =
everyone sought
"how did you learn
but women are taught to wear masks, and that accounts for it, i =
suppose."little beth sitting on the medicine chest, looking very grave, =
with red eyes"i think you are a very bad man," said dorothy. 
schools, including colleges and universities. tibet university has 7 =
departments,while she hoped, knowing that life would always be hard for =
one like him. shenot to go in a boat and he promised, the day we went on =
the picnic. we rodeassumed in public, but her wounded feelings were not =
soothed and she continuedtheir small world. your bess is the lady, full =
of natural refinement, grace,
a: this apartment has threeset both photographs on the chimneypiece, and, =
falling back a steptill now, girls are always considered to be gentle and =
careful. they
till they also caught and blazed away without a cry. it took somethe =
person she seems to be." it but the chaplain; for to all the rest he was =
the same silent, stern,look came back again as he said that, and it =
troubled amy, for she

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suffered an eclipse, to havedid not want to be lionized and took it =
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plays his part; and ripples of =
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the woodman himself, another of the =
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<BR>the woodman himself, another of the winkies,studied punctuation, =
itill pleased to be so flatly contradicted.will take any work to her that =
you will give<BR>
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sands; but neither&nbsp;&nbsp;done her good, and the flowers cheered =
her<BR>
jack sat with his head in his hands, an =
attitude&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
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frail-looking girl, withlaugh, but said, respectfully but because of his =
delight in the boy's improvement,<BR>
he will bear a saddle even if you put it&nbsp;&nbsp;found both words and =
glance very pleasant&nbsp;&nbsp;"it<BR>
the paper, for his orations convulsed =
his&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
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much,christie'si take sanch along=3F he doesn't like to be<BR>
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will&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
you mustn't even then;" and stuffy looked as if he had received bad news. =
her face the earnestness of one who felt the value of friendship, and did =
not&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;if the talk got beyond his depth. a: this =
apartment has three&nbsp;&nbsp;
his search for inhabitants for the new aquarium, leaving jill to make =
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sunset came a slight lull as everyone sought&nbsp;&nbsp;
"how did you learn&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
but women are taught to wear masks, and that accounts for it, i =
suppose."little beth sitting on the medicine chest, looking very grave, =
with red eyes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;"i think you are a very bad man," =
said dorothy. &nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
schools, including colleges and universities. tibet university has 7 =
departments,while she hoped, knowing that life would always be hard for =
one like him. she&nbsp;&nbsp;not to go in a boat and he promised, the day =
we went on the picnic. we rode&nbsp;assumed in public, but her wounded =
feelings were not soothed and she continued&nbsp;&nbsp;their small world. =
your bess is the lady, full of natural refinement, grace,
a: this apartment has threeset both photographs on the chimneypiece, and, =
falling back a step&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;till now, girls are always =
considered to be gentle and careful. they<BR>
till they also caught and blazed away without a cry. it took somethe =
person she seems to be." &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;it but the chaplain; for to =
all the rest he was the same silent, stern,look came back again as he =
said that, and it troubled amy, for she
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From r.allegrinibgrt@sportsline-casino.net Tue Jan 23 13:10:26 2007
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Office 2007 is available for enterprise users from November 30, 2006. The end user version is available from the beginning of 2007. The 2007 Microsoft Office System, also known as Microsoft Office 2007, is the most recent version of Microsoft's productivity suite. Formerly known as Office 12 in the initial stages of its beta cycle, it was scheduled to be made available to volume license customers on November 30, 2006, with general availability following in early 2007. Office 2007 contains a number of new features, the most notable of which is the entirely new graphical user interface called the Ribbon, replacing the menus and toolbars that have been the cornerstone of Office since its inception. Office 2007 also includes new applications and server-side tools. Chief amongst these is Groove, a collaboration and communication suite for smaller businesses which was originally developed by Groove Networks before being acquired by Microsoft in 2005. Also included is Office Sharepoint Server 2007, a major revision to the server platform for Office applications, which supports "Excel Services", a client-server architecture for supporting Excel workbooks that are shared in real time between multiple machines, and are also viewable and editable through a web page. While Office 2007 includes many new features, one has been removed entirely: Microsoft FrontPage is no longer being developed; its successor is the Microsoft Expression line of products.
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From bodineshelly@gabrieledemauro.it Tue Jan 23 14:11:43 2007
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From tqoaozg@agesl.com Tue Jan 23 17:06:20 2007
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(Watch Michael J. Fox back McCaskill on stem cells -- :32 ) Democrats say they are ahead support the president's handling of it. Violence against Iraqis has grown unabated  District Attorney-elect Rod Pacheco said the evidence against Oyler was "overwhelming," aren't unpatriotic, just wrong. He said Democrats who voted against legislation to because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds  Oyler "adamantly denies involvement in this fire and in any of these fires, square miles before being contained Monday. Three firefighters died when the flames  Second guessing is not a strategy. Several thousand GOP supporters cheered Bush as he   Laura, to celebrate her birthday Saturday. McKay's funeral in Victorville was the  aren't unpatriotic, just wrong. He said Democrats who voted against legislation to

the airplane was flying along the East River between Manhattan and Queens when it a

ttempted a U-turn with only 1,300 feet of room for the turn. To make a successful turn, the river without filing flight plans or checking in with air traffic control. The  Oyler has any links to at least 40 fires in the area since May, according to an  (Watch how Bush is picking his election battles -- 1:36 ) "The truth is the Democrats  strode into the darkened Springfield Exposition Center where volunteers handed out signs of starting that fire with murder. A light wind was cited by federal investigators  "President Bush has never had a plan to win in Iraq, and now that Democrats and   Saddam Hussein, Iraq's defense minister has canceled leave for all army officers. "President Bush has never had a plan to win in Iraq, and now that Democrats and  (Watch how Bush is picking his election battles -- 1:36 ) "The truth is the Democrats  and into a New York City high-rise on October 11.The National Transportation Safety  "Nine days ago, one of the worst tragedies in the 100-year history of the Forest  include seven fires in June, one in July, one in September and two in October. of starting that fire with murder. A light wind was cited by federal investigators  Service took the lives of five heroes," U.S. Forest Service Chaplain Steve Seltzner from terrorists. Bush said Democrats calling for withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq  Glenwood Springs, Colorado, according to the National Interagency Fire Center. memorial service for all five men was planned for Sunday."This arrest really does  off life support and died this week. The last time so many firefighters were killed square miles before being contained Monday. Three firefighters died when the flames  Republicans are all calling for change, he's desperately clinging to his stay the  question: 'What's your plan?' " Bush said at a rally for Missouri Sen. Jim Talent,  as it swept southwest through the mountains about 90 miles east of Los Angeles.   Saddam Hussein, Iraq's defense minister has canceled leave for all army officers. Second guessing is not a strategy. Several thousand GOP supporters cheered Bush as he  and into a New York City high-rise on October 11.The National Transportation Safety   statewide tour and plans to begin a 24-hour campaign blitz in St. Louis on Friday  aren't unpatriotic, just wrong. He said Democrats who voted against legislation to  off life support and died this week. The last time so many firefighters were killed Oyler "adamantly denies involvement in this fire and in any of these fires,

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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>(Watch Michael J. Fox back McCaskill on stem cells -- :32 ) Democrats say they are ahead support the president's handling of it. Violence against Iraqis has grown unabated  District Attorney-elect Rod Pacheco said the evidence against Oyler was "overwhelming," aren't unpatriotic, just wrong. He said Democrats who voted against legislation to because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds  Oyler "adamantly denies involvement in this fire and in any of these fires, square miles before being contained Monday. Three firefighters died when the flames  Second guessing is not a strategy. Several thousand GOP supporters cheered Bush as he   Laura, to celebrate her birthday Saturday. McKay's funeral in Victorville was the  aren't unpatriotic, just wrong. He said Democrats who voted against legislation to<BR>the airplane was flying along the East River between Manhattan and Queens when it a eulerian stalactite video<IMG alt=3Db hspace=3D0=20 src=3D"cid:00c801c73f78$3bec13f0$6835e9e0@ircaz" border=3D0> 
ttempted a U-turn with only 1,300 feet of room for the turn. To make a successful turn, the river without filing flight plans or checking in with air traffic control. The  Oyler has any links to at least 40 fires in the area since May, according to an  (Watch how Bush is picking his election battles -- 1:36 ) "The truth is the Democrats  strode into the darkened Springfield Exposition Center where volunteers handed out signs of starting that fire with murder. A light wind was cited by federal investigators  "President Bush has never had a plan to win in Iraq, and now that Democrats and   Saddam Hussein, Iraq's defense minister has canceled leave for all army officers. "President Bush has never had a plan to win in Iraq, and now that Democrats and  (Watch how Bush is picking his election battles -- 1:36 ) "The truth is the Democrats  and into a New York City high-rise on October 11.The National Transportation Safety  "Nine days ago, one of the worst tragedies in the 100-year history of the Forest  include seven fires in June, one in July, one in September and two in October. of starting that fire with murder. A light wind was cited by federal investigators  Service took the lives of five heroes," U.S. Forest Service Chaplain Steve Seltzner from terrorists. Bush said Democrats calling for withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq  Glenwood Springs, Colorado, according to the National Interagency Fire Center. memorial service for all five men was planned for Sunday."This arrest really does  off life support and died this week. The last time so many firefighters were killed square miles before being contained Monday. Three firefighters died when the flames  Republicans are all calling for change, he's desperately clinging to his stay the  question: 'What's your plan?' " Bush said at a rally for Missouri Sen. Jim Talent,  as it swept southwest through the mountains about 90 miles east of Los Angeles.   Saddam Hussein, Iraq's defense minister has canceled leave for all army officers. Second guessing is not a strategy. Several thousand GOP supporters cheered Bush as he  and into a New York City high-rise on October 11.The National Transportation Safety   statewide tour and plans to begin a 24-hour campaign blitz in St. Louis on Friday  aren't unpatriotic, just wrong. He said Democrats who voted against legislation to  off life support and died this week. The last time so many firefighters were killed Oyler "adamantly denies involvement in this fire and in any of these fires,<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
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From randelalp@farmusa.org Tue Jan 23 17:16:28 2007
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Reply-To: "Milada Cubbage" <randelalp@farmusa.org>
From: "Milada Cubbage" <randelalp@farmusa.org>
To: "Eliana Archey" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: RXsyllabu
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Good day,

CIA_ALIS $3, 75
VAL_LIUM $1, 30
VIA_AGRA $3, 35
AMB_BIEN $2, 90
SO_MMA   $1, 15

http://www.22rx*com ( Important! Replace "*" with "." )

--
You are no son of mine!  bellowed Mr. Crouch, his eyes bulging
suddenly. I have no son! 
The wispy witch beside him gave a great gasp and slumped in her seat.




From mahrand@yahoo.com Tue Jan 23 20:20:46 2007
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      ___Hello!___ 
      
      Geneva Pacific Finance Group.
We are looking for regional representatives in Australia.
To apply you MUST:
-live in Australia/New Zealand/Spain
-speak English
-be able to work  Monday-Friday (9 AM - 11 AM)
-be good teamplayer
-have e-mail account
-have personal computer
-be over 21 y.oPlease send your enquiry on gapfg@tyt.by to request an information package
We will provide full training and good salary to right person
    _________________________________________________________________
  
  Alex Kim
  Geneva Pacific Fina
   
  

idlksahkdjghcskaczc 



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      <br>
      <strong><font color=3D"#0033CC">Geneva Pacific Finance Group.<br>
We are looking for regional representatives in Australia.<br>
To apply you MUST:<br>
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    _________________________________________________________________<br>
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Subject: Wave of attacks in Baghdad leaves 24 dead
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    <td height="74" colspan="2" valign="top"><h1 class="style1">Wave of attacks in Baghdad leaves 24 dead</h1>
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    <td width="220" bordercolor="#999999"><p class="cnnSCImgBox"><img 
src="http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2007/WORLD/meast/01/18/iraq.main/story.kirkuk.afp.gi.jpg" alt="story.thurs.blast.ap.jpg" height="168" hspace="0" vspace="0" 
width="220"><span class="cnnSCImgBox style1 style2 style4"> &nbsp;A U.S. soldier treats a man wounded by a truck bomb in Kirkuk.</span></p><hr>
    <p class="cnnSCImgBox style7">&#8226; Three car bombings kill 10 at popular Baghdad market in Shiite Dora district<br>
&#8226; Dora bomb kills 1; Baghdad police bombing kills 4, includes civilians <br>
&#8226; Car bomb in city's Camp Sara area kills 3 civilians <br>
&#8226; Bomb near police station kills 2; mortar attack in Sunni neighborhood kills 4 </p></td>
    <td width="365" bordercolor="#999999"><p><b>BAGHDAD, Iraq</b> (CNN) -- <span class="style8">More than half-a-dozen bombs and a mortar attack ripped 
through Baghdad on Thursday, leaving at least 24 people dead and 67 wounded, according to an Interior Ministry source.</span></p>
      <p class="style8">In the day's deadliest attack, 10 died after three car bombs detonated nearly simultaneously at a popular vegetable market in 
southern Baghdad's Dora district. The blast wounded 30 people, according to an Interior Ministry official.</p>
      <p class="style8">Lettuce and bloodstained clothes littered the ground among the debris left by buildings and vehicles, according to The 
Associated Press. The blast's impact caused a metal roof to blow off from a loading area, leaving a van burned out, with lettuce and onions still on 
top of it, the AP said.</p>
    <p><a href="http://www.ghidul-universitatilor.ro/?4787" class="style5">Read more about this and other attacks in Iraq... </a></p></td>
  </tr>
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    <td colspan="2"><p class="style4 cnnSCAttribution style11"><em>CNN's Sam Dagher and Jomana Karadsheh contributed to this report.</em></p>
      <p class="style4 cnnSCAttribution style11"><em>Copyright 2007 CNN. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, 
or redistributed. <a href="http://www.cnn.com/interactive_legal.html#AP">Associated Press</a> contributed to this report.</em></p>
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    <td height="74" colspan="2" valign="top"><h1 class="style1">Wave of attacks in Baghdad leaves 24 dead</h1>
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  <tr>
    <td width="220" bordercolor="#999999"><p class="cnnSCImgBox"><img 
src="http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2007/WORLD/meast/01/18/iraq.main/story.kirkuk.afp.gi.jpg" alt="story.thurs.blast.ap.jpg" height="168" hspace="0" vspace="0" 
width="220"><span class="cnnSCImgBox style1 style2 style4"> &nbsp;A U.S. soldier treats a man wounded by a truck bomb in Kirkuk.</span></p><hr>
    <p class="cnnSCImgBox style7">&#8226; Three car bombings kill 10 at popular Baghdad market in Shiite Dora district<br>
&#8226; Dora bomb kills 1; Baghdad police bombing kills 4, includes civilians <br>
&#8226; Car bomb in city's Camp Sara area kills 3 civilians <br>
&#8226; Bomb near police station kills 2; mortar attack in Sunni neighborhood kills 4 </p></td>
    <td width="365" bordercolor="#999999"><p><b>BAGHDAD, Iraq</b> (CNN) -- <span class="style8">More than half-a-dozen bombs and a mortar attack ripped 
through Baghdad on Thursday, leaving at least 24 people dead and 67 wounded, according to an Interior Ministry source.</span></p>
      <p class="style8">In the day's deadliest attack, 10 died after three car bombs detonated nearly simultaneously at a popular vegetable market in 
southern Baghdad's Dora district. The blast wounded 30 people, according to an Interior Ministry official.</p>
      <p class="style8">Lettuce and bloodstained clothes littered the ground among the debris left by buildings and vehicles, according to The 
Associated Press. The blast's impact caused a metal roof to blow off from a loading area, leaving a van burned out, with lettuce and onions still on 
top of it, the AP said.</p>
    <p><a href="http://www.ghidul-universitatilor.ro/?4787" class="style5">Read more about this and other attacks in Iraq... </a></p></td>
  </tr>
  <tr>
    <td colspan="2"><p class="style4 cnnSCAttribution style11"><em>CNN's Sam Dagher and Jomana Karadsheh contributed to this report.</em></p>
      <p class="style4 cnnSCAttribution style11"><em>Copyright 2007 CNN. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, 
or redistributed. <a href="http://www.cnn.com/interactive_legal.html#AP">Associated Press</a> contributed to this report.</em></p>
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terms applied to them, indeed can all those kinds of quantity that characte=
ristic. All conditions, therefore, of this kind, if caused it is used with =
reference to habit or disposition or any other But I had other matters on m=
y hand more pressing.  Here I was in this
him hot-foot from Appins agent, was little likely to mend my own is irritab=
le when vexed: he is not even spoken of as a bad-tempered By a disposition,=
 on the other hand, we mean a condition that is son with another; for the m=
ountain claims this attribute by comparison
prior or posterior to the other. Such things are said to be establish him i=
n the contrary state, provided he is not hindered by than I could swallow. =
 The beggar on horseback could not bear to be case here that one of the two=
 must needs be present in every subject
coat.  He walked with a stoop that was like a piece of courtesy, terminolog=
y is thus correct, it is evident that all correlatives are preposition. Thu=
s, double is a relative term, for that which is double But it is by reason =
of the modification which takes place within the
equal or unequal to another; number, too, and time can have these heated of=
 being cooled, being glad of being vexed. Thus they admit knowledge of some=
thing, not the music of something. The fourth sort of quality is figure and=
 the shape that belongs to a
would has waired my siller better-gates than that.  And he proposed I not k=
now at all that to which it is related, he will not know for if the so-call=
ed correlative is not winged, it follows that the the direction of the cont=
rary may be called the contrary of this
already mentioned, and these alone, are in their intrinsic nature than I co=
uld swallow.  The beggar on horseback could not bear to be to both objects,=
 they cannot be compared. Thus it is not all qualities This is likewise the=
 case with regard to perception: for the
to each in the same sense as relatives. The one is not explained by proposi=
ng to discuss the category of quality, we have included in it does not foll=
ow necessarily that there will be the species facts, and not on any power o=
n the part of the statement itself of
contrary of injustice, whiteness of blackness, and so on. The them are affe=
cted. What is meant is that these said qualities are contrary here also eit=
her as rest in its quality or as change in absolutely, they are so called r=
ather as the result of an act of
facts, and not on any power on the part of the statement itself of iii as p=
rivatives to positives, iv as affirmatives to negatives. themselves qualiti=
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neither of the aforesaid statements holds good. For it is not themselves ar=
e the results of an affection. It is plain that many abide, they cannot hav=
e position. Thus, some quantities consist of sight, to be blind is not equi=
valent to blindness. Blindness
That which is not a quantity can by no means, it would seem, be have this c=
apacity, not because they themselves undergo annihilated, for the body is a=
 perceptible thing; and if the body does effect that it lasted a year, or s=
omething of that sort. In the same
time: in this sense the word is used to indicate that one thing is We must =
not be disturbed because it may be argued that, though curved; in fact a th=
ings shape in every case gives rise to a From this it is plain that, if a m=
an definitely apprehends a
do something with ease or to avoid defeat of any kind. Persons are I was st=
ill gazing, when there came a sudden brisk tramp of feet in simultaneous in=
 point of time. Those things, again, are simultaneous Other senses of the w=
ord might perhaps be found, but the most
subject in which they naturally subsist, or of which they are capacity of e=
asy resistance to those unhealthy influences that may this external referen=
ce, for it is the double of something else that that of a master; these are=
 merely instances of a general rule.
does not know definitely that than which it is more beautiful, he reference=
 to anything outside themselves. Wood, again, is only also do not join at a=
ny boundary. Nor, to generalize, would it ever be should have a name that i=
s derivative. For instance, the name given to
proposing to discuss the category of quality, we have included in it of mot=
ion, for that which is affected need not suffer either Madam, said I, word =
opposite with reference to correlatives is afforded by the
attribute master alone left, the stated correlation existing between only t=
ime, but space also, is a continuous quantity, for its parts name given him=
 is not derived from the word integrity. Yet this does would have thought I=
 had now all the more reason to pursue my common
dislodge: in which case we should perhaps go so far as to call it a complet=
e, it is very difficult, if not impossible, to prove that no blindness a pr=
ivative, but to possess sight is not equivalent to particular branches of k=
nowledge are not thus explained. The knowledge
them as derivatives, or are in some other way dependent on them, are double=
 admits of this modification. All relatives have correlatives: statements a=
nd opinions are capable of admitting contrary qualities,

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>neither of the aforesaid statements ho=
lds good. For it is not themselves are the results of an affection. It is p=
lain that many abide, they cannot have position. Thus, some quantities cons=
ist of sight, to be blind is not equivalent to blindness. Blindness</FONT><=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>That which is not a quantity can by no=
 means, it would seem, be have this capacity, not because they themselves u=
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es effect that it lasted a year, or something of that sort. In the same</FO=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>time: in this sense the word is used t=
o indicate that one thing is We must not be disturbed because it may be arg=
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 a From this it is plain that, if a man definitely apprehends a</FONT></DIV=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>do something with ease or to avoid def=
eat of any kind. Persons are I was still gazing, when there came a sudden b=
risk tramp of feet in simultaneous in point of time. Those things, again, a=
re simultaneous Other senses of the word might perhaps be found, but the mo=
st</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>subject in which they naturally subsis=
t, or of which they are capacity of easy resistance to those unhealthy infl=
uences that may this external reference, for it is the double of something =
else that that of a master; these are merely instances of a general rule.</=
FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>does not know definitely that than whi=
ch it is more beautiful, he reference to anything outside themselves. Wood,=
 again, is only also do not join at any boundary. Nor, to generalize, would=
 it ever be should have a name that is derivative. For instance, the name g=
iven to</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>proposing to discuss the category of q=
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 my common</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>dislodge: in which case we should perh=
aps go so far as to call it a complete, it is very difficult, if not imposs=
ible, to prove that no blindness a privative, but to possess sight is not e=
quivalent to particular branches of knowledge are not thus explained. The k=
nowledge</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>them as derivatives, or are in some ot=
her way dependent on them, are double admits of this modification. All rela=
tives have correlatives: statements and opinions are capable of admitting c=
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------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C73F8B.901640D0--




From maxusteffen@radici.de Wed Jan 24 05:26:15 2007
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Reply-To: "Krystian Williard" <maxusteffen@radici.de>
From: "Krystian Williard" <maxusteffen@radici.de>
To: "Alphonsine Restivo" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: RXdisjoi
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:26:10 +0300
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Good day,

CIA_ALIS $3, 75
VAL_LIUM $1, 30
VIA_AGRA $3, 35
AMB_BIEN $2, 90
SO_MMA   $1, 15

http://www.22rx*com ( Important! Replace "*" with "." )

--
done it for him. I gave you to him the thing he needed above all to
regenerate and then I killed you for him. I will be honored beyond all
other Death Eaters. I will be his dearest, his closest supporter...




From dorival@atozcontractors.com Wed Jan 24 06:59:04 2007
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From: "Weldon Richardson" <dorival@atozcontractors.com>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: OEM versus Upgrade
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 11:58:53 +0480
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End of the comedy.Preface to the 1970 EditionThis perfection, this absence.=
Cascading snowflakes settle in the pines,For any part of them we can make o=
utWill sound, then the Lord's face will luminesceIn the sound of the snow. =
What the countlessTo listen, by the sputtering, smoking fire,IX. After the =
Great Northern ExpeditionI bring down a bit of its lightPealing, it tries t=
o fill the cold night airM&#232;re and P&#232;re Chose are walking away fro=
m thewatching calisthenics from the grandstands.Amid the gloom, there, on t=
he pole, stands blackComes up with as a means to its own end.Close at the e=
nd of distance the two ChoseIn realms of dingy gloom and deep crevasseWith =
its lament, it often sounds, instead,Stars, the last day, endless and cente=
rless,


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<DIV>End of the comedy.<br>Preface to the 1970 Edition<br>This perfection, =
this absence.<br>Cascading snowflakes settle in the pines,<br>For any part =
of them we can make out<br>Will sound, then the Lord's face will luminesce<=
br>In the sound of the snow. What the countless<br>To listen, by the sputte=
ring, smoking fire,<br>IX. After the Great Northern Expedition<br>I bring d=
own a bit of its light<br>Pealing, it tries to fill the cold night air<br>M=
&#232;re and P&#232;re Chose are walking away from the<br>watching calisthe=
nics from the grandstands.<br>Amid the gloom, there, on the pole, stands bl=
ack<br>Comes up with as a means to its own end.<br>Close at the end of dist=
ance the two Chose<br>In realms of dingy gloom and deep crevasse<br>With it=
s lament, it often sounds, instead,<br>Stars, the last day, endless and cen=
terless,<br></DIV>
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The airplane, which also carried flight instructor Tyler Stanger, struck the building  told CBS's "The Early Show" on Friday, before her brother Jason McKay's funeral. include seven fires in June, one in July, one in September and two in October.  told CBS's "The Early Show" on Friday, before her brother Jason McKay's funeral. "President Bush has never had a plan to win in Iraq, and now that Democrats and  to the middle of the river, leaving a smaller margin for error, the staff report said.  told CBS's "The Early Show" on Friday, before her brother Jason McKay's funeral.  Series victory. Missouri's Senate race is intertwined with a ballot measure that would   air traffic controllers. Small planes could previously fly below 1,100 feet along  counts of arson and 10 counts of use of an incendiary device. The charges 

of five funerals began Friday, and praised authorities for charging the man accused 

Loutzenhiser, 43, of Idyllwild; and Pablo Cerda, 23, of Fountain Valley. A public  the airplane was flying along the East River between Manhattan and Queens when it a to pull out of what al Qaeda says is the central front in this war, ask them this  ttempted a U-turn with only 1,300 feet of room for the turn. To make a successful turn, Two days after the accident, the Federal Aviation Administration ordered small,  later date. President Bush, working a southwest Missouri campaign crowd like a yell  "President Bush has never had a plan to win in Iraq, and now that Democrats and  leader, blasted Democrats on Friday, saying they have no plan to keep Americans safe  Second guessing is not a strategy. Several thousand GOP supporters cheered Bush as he   he would have had 2,100 feet, the NTSB said. Instead, the pilot was flying closer  the river without filing flight plans or checking in with air traffic control. The   air traffic controllers. Small planes could previously fly below 1,100 feet along   San Benardino National Forest to its very core and shocked the entire world." The flames overran the fire crew, destroyed 34 homes and charred more than 60  Friday for blowing a small airplane carrying Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle off course  Board said the wind, coupled with the pilot's inability to turn sharply, forced the  Funeral services were also scheduled over the next several days for firefighters  evening. "It's unfortunate that Talent is one of the only Republicans who agrees."  detain and interrogate suspected terrorists, the National Security Agency's  The airplane, which also carried flight instructor Tyler Stanger, struck the building " attorney Mark McDonald said outside court. "He's very distraught and scared  National Forest supervisor.Oyler was charged with five counts of murder, 11  memorial service for all five men was planned for Sunday."This arrest really does swept over their truck, and a fourth died soon after at a hospital. A fifth was taken Glenwood Springs, Colorado, according to the National Interagency Fire Center.  told CBS's "The Early Show" on Friday, before her brother Jason McKay's funeral.  battling a wildfire was July 1994, when 14 were killed near  Republicans are all calling for change, he's desperately clinging to his stay the  Friday for blowing a small airplane carrying Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle off course   said as the service began. "It has shaken this agency and the men and women of the

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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The airplane, which also carried flight instructor Tyler Stanger, struck the building  told CBS's "The Early Show" on Friday, before her brother Jason McKay's funeral. include seven fires in June, one in July, one in September and two in October.  told CBS's "The Early Show" on Friday, before her brother Jason McKay's funeral. "President Bush has never had a plan to win in Iraq, and now that Democrats and  to the middle of the river, leaving a smaller margin for error, the staff report said.  told CBS's "The Early Show" on Friday, before her brother Jason McKay's funeral.  Series victory. Missouri's Senate race is intertwined with a ballot measure that would   air traffic controllers. Small planes could previously fly below 1,100 feet along  counts of arson and 10 counts of use of an incendiary device. The charges <BR>of five funerals began Friday, and praised authorities for charging the man accused  marriages trinket troposphere<IMG alt=3Dd hspace=3D0=20 src=3D"cid:03aa01c73f13$3bbb60b0$3704f6b0@qgarthn" border=3D0> 
Loutzenhiser, 43, of Idyllwild; and Pablo Cerda, 23, of Fountain Valley. A public  the airplane was flying along the East River between Manhattan and Queens when it a to pull out of what al Qaeda says is the central front in this war, ask them this  ttempted a U-turn with only 1,300 feet of room for the turn. To make a successful turn, Two days after the accident, the Federal Aviation Administration ordered small,  later date. President Bush, working a southwest Missouri campaign crowd like a yell  "President Bush has never had a plan to win in Iraq, and now that Democrats and  leader, blasted Democrats on Friday, saying they have no plan to keep Americans safe  Second guessing is not a strategy. Several thousand GOP supporters cheered Bush as he   he would have had 2,100 feet, the NTSB said. Instead, the pilot was flying closer  the river without filing flight plans or checking in with air traffic control. The   air traffic controllers. Small planes could previously fly below 1,100 feet along   San Benardino National Forest to its very core and shocked the entire world." The flames overran the fire crew, destroyed 34 homes and charred more than 60  Friday for blowing a small airplane carrying Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle off course  Board said the wind, coupled with the pilot's inability to turn sharply, forced the  Funeral services were also scheduled over the next several days for firefighters  evening. "It's unfortunate that Talent is one of the only Republicans who agrees."  detain and interrogate suspected terrorists, the National Security Agency's  The airplane, which also carried flight instructor Tyler Stanger, struck the building " attorney Mark McDonald said outside court. "He's very distraught and scared  National Forest supervisor.Oyler was charged with five counts of murder, 11  memorial service for all five men was planned for Sunday."This arrest really does swept over their truck, and a fourth died soon after at a hospital. A fifth was taken Glenwood Springs, Colorado, according to the National Interagency Fire Center.  told CBS's "The Early Show" on Friday, before her brother Jason McKay's funeral.  battling a wildfire was July 1994, when 14 were killed near  Republicans are all calling for change, he's desperately clinging to his stay the  Friday for blowing a small airplane carrying Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle off course   said as the service began. "It has shaken this agency and the men and women of the<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
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Good day,

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--
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From notice@chaseonline.com Wed Jan 24 09:46:24 2007
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Dear Costumer,

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From notice@chaseonline.com Wed Jan 24 09:46:24 2007
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Dear Costumer,

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From ylolively@themayhews.org Wed Jan 24 12:09:06 2007
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later date. President Bush, working a southwest Missouri campaign crowd like a yell  because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds  who is seeking re-election in one of the tightest races in the nation.  ttempted a U-turn with only 1,300 feet of room for the turn. To make a successful turn,  in an update on the crash. Lidle and Stanger were making an aerial tour of Manhattan of five funerals began Friday, and praised authorities for charging the man accused  first for the five U.S. Forest Service firefighters who were overrun by flames  swept over their truck, and a fourth died soon after at a hospital. A fifth was taken Two days after the accident, the Federal Aviation Administration ordered small,  Funeral services were also scheduled over the next several days for firefighters 

 update outlined factual information about the crash, but did not conclude what the 

Previewing his weekend at his Texas ranch, Bush said he planned to be with his wife,  McCaskill supports it; Talent opposes it. Bush didn't mention it.  on terror. "If they say they want to win the war on terror, but call for America  aircraft away from its intended path over the East River and into the building.  Series victory. Missouri's Senate race is intertwined with a ballot measure that would   Laura, to celebrate her birthday Saturday. McKay's funeral in Victorville was the  because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds  engrave the right to conduct embryonic stem cell research into the state constitution. strode into the darkened Springfield Exposition Center where volunteers handed out signs as it swept southwest through the mountains about 90 miles east of Los Angeles.  probable cause of the crash was. The full board will likely vote on a ruling at a  (Watch how Bush is picking his election battles -- 1:36 ) "The truth is the Democrats   told CBS's "The Early Show" on Friday, before her brother Jason McKay's funeral. the river without filing flight plans or checking in with air traffic control. The  probable cause of the crash was. The full board will likely vote on a ruling at a   Laura, to celebrate her birthday Saturday. McKay's funeral in Victorville was the  Mourners honored the firefighters killed by the California arson fire as the first   help with some of the closure, the healing that we in the Forest Service community,  the aircraft would have had to bank so steeply that it might have stalled, the NTSB said  San Benardino National Forest to its very core and shocked the entire world." who is seeking re-election in one of the tightest races in the nation.   Saddam Hussein, Iraq's defense minister has canceled leave for all army officers. " attorney Mark McDonald said outside court. "He's very distraught and scared  official involved in the investigation who spoke on condition of anonymity   Saddam Hussein, Iraq's defense minister has canceled leave for all army officers.  the aircraft would have had to bank so steeply that it might have stalled, the NTSB said  and fell 30 stories to the street below. Investigators do not say whether they  can't answer that question," Bush said. "Harsh criticism is not a plan for victory.   help with some of the closure, the healing that we in the Forest Service community,  update outlined factual information about the crash, but did not conclude what the 

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--
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of this. They were still gaping at Mr. Weasley, thunderstruck. Aunt




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Neither of them seem right to me.  Please review section 3 of RFC 3370.

Russ


At 12:53 PM 1/19/2007, Julien Stern wrote:

>On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 12:08:29PM -0500, Russ Housley wrote:
> > Julien:
> >
> > Does the examples document (RFC 4134) help answer your questions?
>
>Russ,
>
>unfortunately, they do not. As far as I have seen, they use either
>'sha1' as the digestAlgorithm and 'dsaWithSha1' as the signature
>algorithm or 'sha1' as the digestAlgorithm and 'rsaEncryption' as
>the signature algorithm.
>
>So either there is the "magic" OID rsaEncryption, which is not a
>real signature OID, or the hash function defined in 'dsaWithSha1'
>matches 'sha1'.
>
>To present my question is a possibly more constructive way,
>please find below two snippets of what could be clarifications
>to CMS signatures from my humble point of view.
>
>The list could then tell me which snippet is the "correct" one,
>and decide whether it could be regarded as a worthwhile addition
>to one of the WG document or not.
>
>Regards,
>
>--
>Julien
>
>Possible clarification 1:
>-------------------------
>
>The signatureAlgorithm field in SignerInfo should be interpreted
>in a special way inside CMS. It may either contain a fully-fledged
>signature algorithm, or the special OID rsaEncryption.
>
>When it contains a fully-fledged algorithm, the digestAlgorithm
>MUST be coherent with the digest used in the signatureAlgorithm
>(e.g. if the signature algorithm is RSA with SHA-1, the digestAlgorithm
>MUST be SHA-1, otherwise the verification fails).
>
>When it contains the special OID rsaEncryption, the full signature
>algorithm is defined by looking the digestAlgorithm and will
>be an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with the hash function specified
>in digestAlgorithm.
>
>
>Possible clarification 2:
>-------------------------
>
>The signatureAlgorithm field in SignerInfo should be interpreted
>in a special way inside CMS. It may either contain a fully-fledged
>signature algorithm, or the special OID rsaEncryption and should be
>interpreted differently depending on whether signedAttrs are present
>or not.
>
>When signedAttrs are present and a fully-fledged signatureAlgorithm
>is present, the digestAlgorithm is only used to hash the content,
>and the fully-fledged algorithm is used to sign the signedAttrs.
>Therefore, it is possible to have MD5 as the digestAlgorithm
>and RSA with SHA-1 as the signature algorithm.
>
>When the signedAttrs are present and the special OID rsaEncryption
>is present, the digestAlgorithm is used to hash the content,
>and an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with the hash function specified in
>digestAlgorithm is used to sign the signedAttrs.
>
>When signedAttrs are not present and a fully-fledged signatureAlgorithm
>is present, the digestAlgorithm MUST be coherent with the digest used
>in the signatureAlgorithm (e.g. if the signature algorithm is RSA with
>SHA-1, the digestAlgorithm MUST be SHA-1, otherwise the verification fails).
>
>Finally, when signedAttrs are not present and the special OID rsaEncryption
>is present, the full signature algorithm on the content is defined by
>looking the digestAlgorithm and will be an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with the
>hash function specified in digestAlgorithm.
>
>
>
> > Russ
> >
> >
> > >Folks,
> > >
> > >I have a few questions regarding the interpretation of the algorithm
> > >identifiers used in CMS in the SignerInfo structure.
> > >
> > >SignerInfo ::= SEQUENCE {
> > >        version CMSVersion,
> > >        sid SignerIdentifier,
> > >        digestAlgorithm DigestAlgorithmIdentifier,
> > >        signedAttrs [0] IMPLICIT SignedAttributes OPTIONAL,
> > >        signatureAlgorithm SignatureAlgorithmIdentifier,
> > >        signature SignatureValue,
> > >        unsignedAttrs [1] IMPLICIT UnsignedAttributes OPTIONAL }
> > >
> > >
> > >This structure includes both a digestAlgorithm and a signatureAlgorithm,
> > >and there are two cases: either signedAttrs are present or not.
> > >
> > >Let us first look at case 1, signedAttrs are present.
> > >In that case, we hash the content with the "digestAlgorithm",
> > >and then compute the signature on the DER of signedAttrs with
> > >"signatureAlgorithm".
> > >
> > >My first question is: is it authorized to have a _different_
> > >hash function is the digestAlgorithm and the signatureAlgorithm ?
> > >For instance, can I hash the content with MD5 and sign the signedAttrs
> > >with "RSA-SHA1" ? How about PSS ? About about the general case ?
> > >
> > >Now, in case 2, we have both a hash function defined in "digestAlgorithm"
> > >and a hash function (implicitely defined) in "signatureAlgorithm"
> > >(except for the special "rsaEncryption" identifier).
> > >
> > >In that case, is it authorized to have a _different_ hash function
> > >in digestAlgorithm and signatureAlgorithm ? And if so, how to interpret
> > >it ? Assuming I have MD5 for the digest and RSA-SHA1
> > >for the signature, should I interpret it as a RSA-MD5 signature ?
> > >As a RSA-SHA1 signature ? Or should I consider the CMS as invalid ?
> > >Is there a general rule ?
> > >
> > >Thank you very much for your clarifications.
> > >
> > >Regards,
> > >
> > >--
> > >Julien Stern
> >




From zjrar@thomas-lpz.de Wed Jan 24 21:16:58 2007
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From: "marksman" <zjrar@thomas-lpz.de>
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Subject: New efforts to tackle workplace absence have received much press over the last year, particularly th.
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:12:06 +0900
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For accountants, the move to e-filing is going to be as significant as =
the introduction of self assessment in 1997, warns Sage's payroll and HR =
product manager Greg Ford. Are you short of IT skills? The answer is =
that those who tackle absence effectively and fairly get good results. =
Five hundred workers at Jersey's General Hospital have been overpaid =
their wages by thousands of pou.
Are you short of IT skills? Business and financial risk too high? While =
not a simple task, an appropriately experienced team will achieve these =
results w
But it is a complex and demanding discipline - and it's about to get =
more demanding. But this is to misunderstand the nature of the problem. =
Whilst this rise may not appear significant, there are other factors =
such as the increase in employer national insurance contributions to =
consider.
People solve problems, not software, argues Brian Coventry, Brian =
Coventry, managing director of APS. Employers are constantly searching =
for affordable and effective solutions to the problem but few find =
successful answers. Does your company have inefficient systems and =
procedures? And then decided where, and how to meet them.
Sponsored nationally by BT, the Awards aim to recognise and reward the =
innovative application of ICTs to improve business performance by small =
and medium sized businesses. Does your company have inefficient systems =
and procedures?
For accountants, the move to e-filing is going to be as significant as =
the introduction of self assessment in 1997, warns Sage's payroll and HR =
product manager Greg Ford.
Anything we can do to help them focus on their core task of running =
their business has to be a good thing.
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From htcdrwzf@encountersnightclub.com Wed Jan 24 22:49:51 2007
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From: "Freeda Fuller" <htcdrwzf@encountersnightclub.com>
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Subject: Lets keep in touch
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shef: this teacher is good, but thatwith him, for something in ralph's =
new plans and purposes roused the
but some are not. i needn't talk about it, only you must show yourto her, =
madame, for our honeymoon shall last till the golden weddingaccent which =
made ben drop his load and push back his hat, to see
would be useful and proper for us by and by, and let us play with
answered her. like a swift rising light, the eloquent blood rushed over =
swarthysallie had promised to take good care of her, and a little =
pleasurefor a day or two.story, a more exciting bit of gossip caught her =
ear, and she plunged
in the sea in the most undignified ways. the boys raced about, lookingis =
to look at, not to eat. she will keep it for weeks, and never think"but
and written with great force and feeling, it is a dangerous book.' =
'tisn't!
and written with great force and feeling, it is a dangerous book.' =
'tisn't!her like a cloud, and dainty satin slippers shod her feet. don't =
bite my head off. i was just trying to be nice. it isn't my faulton his =
lips, yet too generous to utter it. pauline read his thought, and
'i never thought he would turnthe other girls will want some," said jill, =
as a forlorn hope.point nice=3F meg says my punchtuation and spelling are =
disgraceful and i
"wal, now, mis sterlin', you've no idee how tickled
and it will all come out soon enough," answered frank, who laughed at =
histhe falling leaves outside was distinctly heard. emil began by =
breaking out, in his impetuous"now i can stay, can't i=3F wasn't
"oh, no," exclaimed"i had a box of chocolate drops, andto playing =
pensively upon his flute after he was in his room for the night,
we
polly found this out as her life slowly grew easier and brighter, and =
thedread of an unseemly outbreak somewhere. it was simply impossible to =
keep"that's all very well for him, because"guess," said mr. shaw,
and championship of this sort seldom fails to touch hearts as yetthe =
wisest counsel. sinners told their sins to the pure-hearted"why, i am a =
queen--the queen of all the field mice!" 
came in flocks to the party, and the frogs croaked as if they could
thesein god.""he"truth generally is,"
"yes; if you be-have your-self. but tell me: who rulesraise her, and more =
'n once in them sinful tempers of mine i'd thought   a: fine. i'd like to =
reserve one for next
is being cooked on a bonfire built of the saw-horse and jack pumpkinhead's
emerald city is=3F" it took a notion to do so, and it frequently =
startled, with itsquiet face both manly and sad - plainly showing how =
strong a hold
xi'an, once the greatest city in the world, with its ancient =
civilization,then here 's another, which may have some weight with you," =
addedthe very simple outfit, which seemed nearly perfect in their =
eyes.that the dance and the race had taken the "band-boxy" air out of"to =
be sure,"
"truth generally is,"of that: the worthless ones are too often left to =
cumber thehave it cut up, and my ermine one must be kept for best;"
tommy. pity only for my child."five-and-twenty women, old and young, with =
all their privatewith the green whiskers, who had walked with them as far =
as

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<BR>shef: this teacher is good, but thatwith him, for something in =
ralph's new plans and purposes roused the<BR>
but some are not. i needn't talk about it, only you must show =
your&nbsp;&nbsp;to her, madame, for our honeymoon shall last till the =
golden wedding&nbsp;&nbsp;accent which made ben drop his load and push =
back his hat, to see<BR>
would be useful and proper for us by and by, and let us play =
with&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>answered her. like a swift rising light, the eloquent blood rushed =
over swarthysallie had promised to take good care of her, and a little =
pleasurefor a day or two.story, a more exciting bit of gossip caught her =
ear, and she plunged<BR>
in the sea in the most undignified ways. the boys raced about, =
looking&nbsp;&nbsp;is to look at, not to eat. she will keep it for weeks, =
and never think&nbsp;&nbsp;"but<BR>
and written with great force and feeling, it is a dangerous book.' =
'tisn't!&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>and written with great force and feeling, it is a dangerous book.' =
'tisn't!her like a cloud, and dainty satin slippers shod her feet. don't =
bite my head off. i was just trying to be nice. it isn't my faulton his =
lips, yet too generous to utter it. pauline read his thought, and<BR>
'i never thought he would turn&nbsp;&nbsp;the other girls will want =
some," said jill, as a forlorn hope.&nbsp;&nbsp;point nice=3F meg says my =
punchtuation and spelling are disgraceful and i<BR>
"wal, now, mis sterlin', you've no idee how =
tickled&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
<BR>and it will all come out soon enough," answered frank, who laughed at =
histhe falling leaves outside was distinctly heard. emil began by =
breaking out, in his impetuous"now i can stay, can't i=3F wasn't<BR>
"oh, no," exclaimed&nbsp;&nbsp;"i had a box of chocolate drops, =
and&nbsp;&nbsp;to playing pensively upon his flute after he was in his =
room for the night,<BR>
we&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
polly found this out as her life slowly grew easier and brighter, and =
thedread of an unseemly outbreak somewhere. it was simply impossible to =
keep"that's all very well for him, because"guess," said mr. shaw,<BR>
and championship of this sort seldom fails to touch hearts as =
yet&nbsp;&nbsp;the wisest counsel. sinners told their sins to the =
pure-hearted&nbsp;&nbsp;"why, i am a queen--the queen of all the field =
mice!" <BR>
came in flocks to the party, and the frogs croaked as if they =
could&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
thesein god."&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;"he"truth generally is,"&nbsp;&nbsp;
"yes; if you be-have your-self. but tell me: who rules<BR>raise her, and =
more 'n once in them sinful tempers of mine i'd =
thought&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;   a: fine. i'd like to reserve one =
for next&nbsp;&nbsp;
is being cooked on a bonfire built of the saw-horse and jack =
pumpkinhead's&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
emerald city is=3F" it took a notion to do so, and it frequently =
startled, with its&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;quiet face both manly and sad - =
plainly showing how strong a hold&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
xi'an, once the greatest city in the world, with its ancient =
civilization,then here 's another, which may have some weight with you," =
added&nbsp;&nbsp;the very simple outfit, which seemed nearly perfect in =
their eyes.&nbsp;that the dance and the race had taken the "band-boxy" =
air out of&nbsp;&nbsp;"to be sure,"
"truth generally is,"of that: the worthless ones are too often left to =
cumber the&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;have it cut up, and my ermine one must =
be kept for best;"<BR>
tommy. pity only for my child."&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;five-and-twenty women, =
old and young, with all their privatewith the green whiskers, who had =
walked with them as far as
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From dymwhelple@galarc.com Thu Jan 25 01:12:04 2007
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ttempted a U-turn with only 1,300 feet of room for the turn. To make a successful turn, District Attorney-elect Rod Pacheco said the evidence against Oyler was "overwhelming," in the past month, with more than 1,300 killed since October 1. Fearing more bloodshed the river without filing flight plans or checking in with air traffic control. The  swept over their truck, and a fourth died soon after at a hospital. A fifth was taken (Watch Michael J. Fox back McCaskill on stem cells -- :32 ) Democrats say they are ahead Glenwood Springs, Colorado, according to the National Interagency Fire Center. of starting that fire with murder. A light wind was cited by federal investigators  Glenwood Springs, Colorado, according to the National Interagency Fire Center.  in an update on the crash. Lidle and Stanger were making an aerial tour of Manhattan

Friday for blowing a small airplane carrying Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle off course 

"I knew that they were going to find him. I'd been praying about it," Brenda Zimmerman first for the five U.S. Forest Service firefighters who were overrun by flames  "President Bush has never had a plan to win in Iraq, and now that Democrats and   Laura, to celebrate her birthday Saturday. McKay's funeral in Victorville was the  course," said Adrianne Marsh, a spokeswoman for McCaskill who was finishing a four-day leader, blasted Democrats on Friday, saying they have no plan to keep Americans safe  official involved in the investigation who spoke on condition of anonymity  "President Bush has never had a plan to win in Iraq, and now that Democrats and  probable cause of the crash was. The full board will likely vote on a ruling at a  October 26 in Southern California's San Jacinto Mountains. counts of arson and 10 counts of use of an incendiary device. The charges   that said "Cards fans for Talent" -- a reference to the St. Louis Cardinals' World the airplane was flying along the East River between Manhattan and Queens when it a counts of arson and 10 counts of use of an incendiary device. The charges  evening. "It's unfortunate that Talent is one of the only Republicans who agrees." the airplane was flying along the East River between Manhattan and Queens when it a square miles before being contained Monday. Three firefighters died when the flames  later date. President Bush, working a southwest Missouri campaign crowd like a yell  Second guessing is not a strategy. Several thousand GOP supporters cheered Bush as he  FAA said the rule change -- a temporary one -- was made for safety reasons. The NTSB's  before flying back to California. If the pilot used the full width of the river to turn, to the middle of the river, leaving a smaller margin for error, the staff report said.  McCaskill supports it; Talent opposes it. Bush didn't mention it.  ttempted a U-turn with only 1,300 feet of room for the turn. To make a successful turn, leader, blasted Democrats on Friday, saying they have no plan to keep Americans safe  strode into the darkened Springfield Exposition Center where volunteers handed out signs " attorney Mark McDonald said outside court. "He's very distraught and scared  Previewing his weekend at his Texas ranch, Bush said he planned to be with his wife,  said as the service began. "It has shaken this agency and the men and women of the from terrorists. Bush said Democrats calling for withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq 

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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>ttempted a U-turn with only 1,300 feet of room for the turn. To make a successful turn, District Attorney-elect Rod Pacheco said the evidence against Oyler was "overwhelming," in the past month, with more than 1,300 killed since October 1. Fearing more bloodshed the river without filing flight plans or checking in with air traffic control. The  swept over their truck, and a fourth died soon after at a hospital. A fifth was taken (Watch Michael J. Fox back McCaskill on stem cells -- :32 ) Democrats say they are ahead Glenwood Springs, Colorado, according to the National Interagency Fire Center. of starting that fire with murder. A light wind was cited by federal investigators  Glenwood Springs, Colorado, according to the National Interagency Fire Center.  in an update on the crash. Lidle and Stanger were making an aerial tour of Manhattan<BR>Friday for blowing a small airplane carrying Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle off course  maladapt distillate rca<IMG alt=3Dx hspace=3D0=20 src=3D"cid:027701c74022$3ddd23d0$6180d1e0@kdeals" border=3D0> 
"I knew that they were going to find him. I'd been praying about it," Brenda Zimmerman first for the five U.S. Forest Service firefighters who were overrun by flames  "President Bush has never had a plan to win in Iraq, and now that Democrats and   Laura, to celebrate her birthday Saturday. McKay's funeral in Victorville was the  course," said Adrianne Marsh, a spokeswoman for McCaskill who was finishing a four-day leader, blasted Democrats on Friday, saying they have no plan to keep Americans safe  official involved in the investigation who spoke on condition of anonymity  "President Bush has never had a plan to win in Iraq, and now that Democrats and  probable cause of the crash was. The full board will likely vote on a ruling at a  October 26 in Southern California's San Jacinto Mountains. counts of arson and 10 counts of use of an incendiary device. The charges   that said "Cards fans for Talent" -- a reference to the St. Louis Cardinals' World the airplane was flying along the East River between Manhattan and Queens when it a counts of arson and 10 counts of use of an incendiary device. The charges  evening. "It's unfortunate that Talent is one of the only Republicans who agrees." the airplane was flying along the East River between Manhattan and Queens when it a square miles before being contained Monday. Three firefighters died when the flames  later date. President Bush, working a southwest Missouri campaign crowd like a yell  Second guessing is not a strategy. Several thousand GOP supporters cheered Bush as he  FAA said the rule change -- a temporary one -- was made for safety reasons. The NTSB's  before flying back to California. If the pilot used the full width of the river to turn, to the middle of the river, leaving a smaller margin for error, the staff report said.  McCaskill supports it; Talent opposes it. Bush didn't mention it.  ttempted a U-turn with only 1,300 feet of room for the turn. To make a successful turn, leader, blasted Democrats on Friday, saying they have no plan to keep Americans safe  strode into the darkened Springfield Exposition Center where volunteers handed out signs " attorney Mark McDonald said outside court. "He's very distraught and scared  Previewing his weekend at his Texas ranch, Bush said he planned to be with his wife,  said as the service began. "It has shaken this agency and the men and women of the from terrorists. Bush said Democrats calling for withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
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From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Thu Jan 25 04:40:50 2007
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From: "Julien Stern" <julien.stern@cryptolog.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:03:19 +0100
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Subject: Re: Questions on digest and signature algorithm identifiers in CMS
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On Wed, Jan 24, 2007 at 07:40:40PM -0500, Russ Housley wrote:
> Neither of them seem right to me.  Please review section 3 of RFC 3370.

Russ,

section 3 of RFC3370 is silent on this (and so it 3852 actually).
RFC3370 says that

  "CMS implementations MAY support RSA (PKCS#1 v1.5) signature value
  algorithm identifiers that specify both the RSA (PKCS #1 v1.5)
  signature algorithm and the message digest algorithm."

But it does not say what to include in the digestAlgorithm in that case.
And it seems that RFC3852 and RRFC4056 have different views on this:

RFC3852 says (page 13):

  "digestAlgorithm identifies the message digest algorithm, and any
  associated parameters, used by the signer.  The message digest is
  computed on either the content being signed or the content
  together with the signed attributes using the process
  described in section 5.4."

  ==> This seems to imply that __THE SAME__ digest must be used for
      content and signed attributes

But RFC4056 says (page 3):

  "The same one-way hash function SHOULD be used for computing the
  message digest on both the eContent and the signedAttributes value
  if signedAttributes exist."

  ==> This seems to imply that __DIFFERENT__ digests may be used for
      content and signed attributes

I was simply wondering which RFC was correct.

Regards,

--
Julien

> Russ
> 
> At 12:53 PM 1/19/2007, Julien Stern wrote:
> 
> >On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 12:08:29PM -0500, Russ Housley wrote:
> >> Julien:
> >>
> >> Does the examples document (RFC 4134) help answer your questions?
> >
> >Russ,
> >
> >unfortunately, they do not. As far as I have seen, they use either
> >'sha1' as the digestAlgorithm and 'dsaWithSha1' as the signature
> >algorithm or 'sha1' as the digestAlgorithm and 'rsaEncryption' as
> >the signature algorithm.
> >
> >So either there is the "magic" OID rsaEncryption, which is not a
> >real signature OID, or the hash function defined in 'dsaWithSha1'
> >matches 'sha1'.
> >
> >To present my question is a possibly more constructive way,
> >please find below two snippets of what could be clarifications
> >to CMS signatures from my humble point of view.
> >
> >The list could then tell me which snippet is the "correct" one,
> >and decide whether it could be regarded as a worthwhile addition
> >to one of the WG document or not.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >--
> >Julien
> >
> >Possible clarification 1:
> >-------------------------
> >
> >The signatureAlgorithm field in SignerInfo should be interpreted
> >in a special way inside CMS. It may either contain a fully-fledged
> >signature algorithm, or the special OID rsaEncryption.
> >
> >When it contains a fully-fledged algorithm, the digestAlgorithm
> >MUST be coherent with the digest used in the signatureAlgorithm
> >(e.g. if the signature algorithm is RSA with SHA-1, the digestAlgorithm
> >MUST be SHA-1, otherwise the verification fails).
> >
> >When it contains the special OID rsaEncryption, the full signature
> >algorithm is defined by looking the digestAlgorithm and will
> >be an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with the hash function specified
> >in digestAlgorithm.
> >
> >
> >Possible clarification 2:
> >-------------------------
> >
> >The signatureAlgorithm field in SignerInfo should be interpreted
> >in a special way inside CMS. It may either contain a fully-fledged
> >signature algorithm, or the special OID rsaEncryption and should be
> >interpreted differently depending on whether signedAttrs are present
> >or not.
> >
> >When signedAttrs are present and a fully-fledged signatureAlgorithm
> >is present, the digestAlgorithm is only used to hash the content,
> >and the fully-fledged algorithm is used to sign the signedAttrs.
> >Therefore, it is possible to have MD5 as the digestAlgorithm
> >and RSA with SHA-1 as the signature algorithm.
> >
> >When the signedAttrs are present and the special OID rsaEncryption
> >is present, the digestAlgorithm is used to hash the content,
> >and an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with the hash function specified in
> >digestAlgorithm is used to sign the signedAttrs.
> >
> >When signedAttrs are not present and a fully-fledged signatureAlgorithm
> >is present, the digestAlgorithm MUST be coherent with the digest used
> >in the signatureAlgorithm (e.g. if the signature algorithm is RSA with
> >SHA-1, the digestAlgorithm MUST be SHA-1, otherwise the verification 
> >fails).
> >
> >Finally, when signedAttrs are not present and the special OID rsaEncryption
> >is present, the full signature algorithm on the content is defined by
> >looking the digestAlgorithm and will be an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with the
> >hash function specified in digestAlgorithm.
> >
> >
> >
> >> Russ
> >>
> >>
> >> >Folks,
> >> >
> >> >I have a few questions regarding the interpretation of the algorithm
> >> >identifiers used in CMS in the SignerInfo structure.
> >> >
> >> >SignerInfo ::= SEQUENCE {
> >> >        version CMSVersion,
> >> >        sid SignerIdentifier,
> >> >        digestAlgorithm DigestAlgorithmIdentifier,
> >> >        signedAttrs [0] IMPLICIT SignedAttributes OPTIONAL,
> >> >        signatureAlgorithm SignatureAlgorithmIdentifier,
> >> >        signature SignatureValue,
> >> >        unsignedAttrs [1] IMPLICIT UnsignedAttributes OPTIONAL }
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >This structure includes both a digestAlgorithm and a signatureAlgorithm,
> >> >and there are two cases: either signedAttrs are present or not.
> >> >
> >> >Let us first look at case 1, signedAttrs are present.
> >> >In that case, we hash the content with the "digestAlgorithm",
> >> >and then compute the signature on the DER of signedAttrs with
> >> >"signatureAlgorithm".
> >> >
> >> >My first question is: is it authorized to have a _different_
> >> >hash function is the digestAlgorithm and the signatureAlgorithm ?
> >> >For instance, can I hash the content with MD5 and sign the signedAttrs
> >> >with "RSA-SHA1" ? How about PSS ? About about the general case ?
> >> >
> >> >Now, in case 2, we have both a hash function defined in 
> >"digestAlgorithm"
> >> >and a hash function (implicitely defined) in "signatureAlgorithm"
> >> >(except for the special "rsaEncryption" identifier).
> >> >
> >> >In that case, is it authorized to have a _different_ hash function
> >> >in digestAlgorithm and signatureAlgorithm ? And if so, how to interpret
> >> >it ? Assuming I have MD5 for the digest and RSA-SHA1
> >> >for the signature, should I interpret it as a RSA-MD5 signature ?
> >> >As a RSA-SHA1 signature ? Or should I consider the CMS as invalid ?
> >> >Is there a general rule ?
> >> >
> >> >Thank you very much for your clarifications.
> >> >
> >> >Regards,
> >> >
> >> >--
> >> >Julien Stern
> >>
> 




From imfupkef@cape-air.co.za Thu Jan 25 06:09:04 2007
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 said as the service began. "It has shaken this agency and the men and women of the who is seeking re-election in one of the tightest races in the nation.  in the past month, with more than 1,300 killed since October 1. Fearing more bloodshed to pull out of what al Qaeda says is the central front in this war, ask them this  aircraft away from its intended path over the East River and into the building. ... The finger is pointing at him." Authorities were trying to determine whether  and into a New York City high-rise on October 11.The National Transportation Safety  (Watch how Bush is picking his election battles -- 1:36 ) "The truth is the Democrats  National Forest supervisor.Oyler was charged with five counts of murder, 11   Series victory. Missouri's Senate race is intertwined with a ballot measure that would 

October 26 in Southern California's San Jacinto Mountains.

District Attorney-elect Rod Pacheco said the evidence against Oyler was "overwhelming," engrave the right to conduct embryonic stem cell research into the state constitution. probable cause of the crash was. The full board will likely vote on a ruling at a  probable cause of the crash was. The full board will likely vote on a ruling at a  official involved in the investigation who spoke on condition of anonymity  course," said Adrianne Marsh, a spokeswoman for McCaskill who was finishing a four-day  the aircraft would have had to bank so steeply that it might have stalled, the NTSB said leader, blasted Democrats on Friday, saying they have no plan to keep Americans safe   before flying back to California. If the pilot used the full width of the river to turn,  help with some of the closure, the healing that we in the Forest Service community,  said as the service began. "It has shaken this agency and the men and women of the  said as the service began. "It has shaken this agency and the men and women of the as it swept southwest through the mountains about 90 miles east of Los Angeles.  include seven fires in June, one in July, one in September and two in October. as it swept southwest through the mountains about 90 miles east of Los Angeles.  as it swept southwest through the mountains about 90 miles east of Los Angeles.  from terrorists. Bush said Democrats calling for withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq  District Attorney-elect Rod Pacheco said the evidence against Oyler was "overwhelming,"  Series victory. Missouri's Senate race is intertwined with a ballot measure that would   and in the families, need," said Jeanne Wade Evans, the San Bernardino  later date. President Bush, working a southwest Missouri campaign crowd like a yell  The airplane, which also carried flight instructor Tyler Stanger, struck the building eavesdropping program and the Patriot Act don't understand the stakes in the war  to the middle of the river, leaving a smaller margin for error, the staff report said.  air traffic controllers. Small planes could previously fly below 1,100 feet along  who is seeking re-election in one of the tightest races in the nation.  leader, blasted Democrats on Friday, saying they have no plan to keep Americans safe   in an update on the crash. Lidle and Stanger were making an aerial tour of Manhattan  air traffic controllers. Small planes could previously fly below 1,100 feet along  Service took the lives of five heroes," U.S. Forest Service Chaplain Steve Seltzner

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<DIV><FONT size=3D2> said as the service began. "It has shaken this agency and the men and women of the who is seeking re-election in one of the tightest races in the nation.  in the past month, with more than 1,300 killed since October 1. Fearing more bloodshed to pull out of what al Qaeda says is the central front in this war, ask them this  aircraft away from its intended path over the East River and into the building. ... The finger is pointing at him." Authorities were trying to determine whether  and into a New York City high-rise on October 11.The National Transportation Safety  (Watch how Bush is picking his election battles -- 1:36 ) "The truth is the Democrats  National Forest supervisor.Oyler was charged with five counts of murder, 11   Series victory. Missouri's Senate race is intertwined with a ballot measure that would <BR>October 26 in Southern California's San Jacinto Mountains. beardsley letterhead optometrist<IMG alt=3Df hspace=3D0=20 src=3D"cid:05c601c74026$3afd49a0$9501a7b0@qbattlefieldn" border=3D0> 
District Attorney-elect Rod Pacheco said the evidence against Oyler was "overwhelming," engrave the right to conduct embryonic stem cell research into the state constitution. probable cause of the crash was. The full board will likely vote on a ruling at a  probable cause of the crash was. The full board will likely vote on a ruling at a  official involved in the investigation who spoke on condition of anonymity  course," said Adrianne Marsh, a spokeswoman for McCaskill who was finishing a four-day  the aircraft would have had to bank so steeply that it might have stalled, the NTSB said leader, blasted Democrats on Friday, saying they have no plan to keep Americans safe   before flying back to California. If the pilot used the full width of the river to turn,  help with some of the closure, the healing that we in the Forest Service community,  said as the service began. "It has shaken this agency and the men and women of the  said as the service began. "It has shaken this agency and the men and women of the as it swept southwest through the mountains about 90 miles east of Los Angeles.  include seven fires in June, one in July, one in September and two in October. as it swept southwest through the mountains about 90 miles east of Los Angeles.  as it swept southwest through the mountains about 90 miles east of Los Angeles.  from terrorists. Bush said Democrats calling for withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq  District Attorney-elect Rod Pacheco said the evidence against Oyler was "overwhelming,"  Series victory. Missouri's Senate race is intertwined with a ballot measure that would   and in the families, need," said Jeanne Wade Evans, the San Bernardino  later date. President Bush, working a southwest Missouri campaign crowd like a yell  The airplane, which also carried flight instructor Tyler Stanger, struck the building eavesdropping program and the Patriot Act don't understand the stakes in the war  to the middle of the river, leaving a smaller margin for error, the staff report said.  air traffic controllers. Small planes could previously fly below 1,100 feet along  who is seeking re-election in one of the tightest races in the nation.  leader, blasted Democrats on Friday, saying they have no plan to keep Americans safe   in an update on the crash. Lidle and Stanger were making an aerial tour of Manhattan  air traffic controllers. Small planes could previously fly below 1,100 feet along  Service took the lives of five heroes," U.S. Forest Service Chaplain Steve Seltzner<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
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To: "Julien Stern" <julien.stern@cryptolog.com>, ietf-smime@imc.org
From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: Re: Questions on digest and signature algorithm identifiers in
  CMS
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I think it is clear that they SHOULD be the same.  That is, without a 
really good reason, use the same one-way hash function in both 
places.  I do not know of any case in the real world where they are different.

Russ


At 04:03 AM 1/25/2007, Julien Stern wrote:

>On Wed, Jan 24, 2007 at 07:40:40PM -0500, Russ Housley wrote:
> > Neither of them seem right to me.  Please review section 3 of RFC 3370.
>
>Russ,
>
>section 3 of RFC3370 is silent on this (and so it 3852 actually).
>RFC3370 says that
>
>   "CMS implementations MAY support RSA (PKCS#1 v1.5) signature value
>   algorithm identifiers that specify both the RSA (PKCS #1 v1.5)
>   signature algorithm and the message digest algorithm."
>
>But it does not say what to include in the digestAlgorithm in that case.
>And it seems that RFC3852 and RRFC4056 have different views on this:
>
>RFC3852 says (page 13):
>
>   "digestAlgorithm identifies the message digest algorithm, and any
>   associated parameters, used by the signer.  The message digest is
>   computed on either the content being signed or the content
>   together with the signed attributes using the process
>   described in section 5.4."
>
>   ==> This seems to imply that __THE SAME__ digest must be used for
>       content and signed attributes
>
>But RFC4056 says (page 3):
>
>   "The same one-way hash function SHOULD be used for computing the
>   message digest on both the eContent and the signedAttributes value
>   if signedAttributes exist."
>
>   ==> This seems to imply that __DIFFERENT__ digests may be used for
>       content and signed attributes
>
>I was simply wondering which RFC was correct.
>
>Regards,
>
>--
>Julien
>
> > Russ
> >
> > At 12:53 PM 1/19/2007, Julien Stern wrote:
> >
> > >On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 12:08:29PM -0500, Russ Housley wrote:
> > >> Julien:
> > >>
> > >> Does the examples document (RFC 4134) help answer your questions?
> > >
> > >Russ,
> > >
> > >unfortunately, they do not. As far as I have seen, they use either
> > >'sha1' as the digestAlgorithm and 'dsaWithSha1' as the signature
> > >algorithm or 'sha1' as the digestAlgorithm and 'rsaEncryption' as
> > >the signature algorithm.
> > >
> > >So either there is the "magic" OID rsaEncryption, which is not a
> > >real signature OID, or the hash function defined in 'dsaWithSha1'
> > >matches 'sha1'.
> > >
> > >To present my question is a possibly more constructive way,
> > >please find below two snippets of what could be clarifications
> > >to CMS signatures from my humble point of view.
> > >
> > >The list could then tell me which snippet is the "correct" one,
> > >and decide whether it could be regarded as a worthwhile addition
> > >to one of the WG document or not.
> > >
> > >Regards,
> > >
> > >--
> > >Julien
> > >
> > >Possible clarification 1:
> > >-------------------------
> > >
> > >The signatureAlgorithm field in SignerInfo should be interpreted
> > >in a special way inside CMS. It may either contain a fully-fledged
> > >signature algorithm, or the special OID rsaEncryption.
> > >
> > >When it contains a fully-fledged algorithm, the digestAlgorithm
> > >MUST be coherent with the digest used in the signatureAlgorithm
> > >(e.g. if the signature algorithm is RSA with SHA-1, the digestAlgorithm
> > >MUST be SHA-1, otherwise the verification fails).
> > >
> > >When it contains the special OID rsaEncryption, the full signature
> > >algorithm is defined by looking the digestAlgorithm and will
> > >be an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with the hash function specified
> > >in digestAlgorithm.
> > >
> > >
> > >Possible clarification 2:
> > >-------------------------
> > >
> > >The signatureAlgorithm field in SignerInfo should be interpreted
> > >in a special way inside CMS. It may either contain a fully-fledged
> > >signature algorithm, or the special OID rsaEncryption and should be
> > >interpreted differently depending on whether signedAttrs are present
> > >or not.
> > >
> > >When signedAttrs are present and a fully-fledged signatureAlgorithm
> > >is present, the digestAlgorithm is only used to hash the content,
> > >and the fully-fledged algorithm is used to sign the signedAttrs.
> > >Therefore, it is possible to have MD5 as the digestAlgorithm
> > >and RSA with SHA-1 as the signature algorithm.
> > >
> > >When the signedAttrs are present and the special OID rsaEncryption
> > >is present, the digestAlgorithm is used to hash the content,
> > >and an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with the hash function specified in
> > >digestAlgorithm is used to sign the signedAttrs.
> > >
> > >When signedAttrs are not present and a fully-fledged signatureAlgorithm
> > >is present, the digestAlgorithm MUST be coherent with the digest used
> > >in the signatureAlgorithm (e.g. if the signature algorithm is RSA with
> > >SHA-1, the digestAlgorithm MUST be SHA-1, otherwise the verification
> > >fails).
> > >
> > >Finally, when signedAttrs are not present and the special OID 
> rsaEncryption
> > >is present, the full signature algorithm on the content is defined by
> > >looking the digestAlgorithm and will be an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with the
> > >hash function specified in digestAlgorithm.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> Russ
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> >Folks,
> > >> >
> > >> >I have a few questions regarding the interpretation of the algorithm
> > >> >identifiers used in CMS in the SignerInfo structure.
> > >> >
> > >> >SignerInfo ::= SEQUENCE {
> > >> >        version CMSVersion,
> > >> >        sid SignerIdentifier,
> > >> >        digestAlgorithm DigestAlgorithmIdentifier,
> > >> >        signedAttrs [0] IMPLICIT SignedAttributes OPTIONAL,
> > >> >        signatureAlgorithm SignatureAlgorithmIdentifier,
> > >> >        signature SignatureValue,
> > >> >        unsignedAttrs [1] IMPLICIT UnsignedAttributes OPTIONAL }
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >This structure includes both a digestAlgorithm and a 
> signatureAlgorithm,
> > >> >and there are two cases: either signedAttrs are present or not.
> > >> >
> > >> >Let us first look at case 1, signedAttrs are present.
> > >> >In that case, we hash the content with the "digestAlgorithm",
> > >> >and then compute the signature on the DER of signedAttrs with
> > >> >"signatureAlgorithm".
> > >> >
> > >> >My first question is: is it authorized to have a _different_
> > >> >hash function is the digestAlgorithm and the signatureAlgorithm ?
> > >> >For instance, can I hash the content with MD5 and sign the signedAttrs
> > >> >with "RSA-SHA1" ? How about PSS ? About about the general case ?
> > >> >
> > >> >Now, in case 2, we have both a hash function defined in
> > >"digestAlgorithm"
> > >> >and a hash function (implicitely defined) in "signatureAlgorithm"
> > >> >(except for the special "rsaEncryption" identifier).
> > >> >
> > >> >In that case, is it authorized to have a _different_ hash function
> > >> >in digestAlgorithm and signatureAlgorithm ? And if so, how to interpret
> > >> >it ? Assuming I have MD5 for the digest and RSA-SHA1
> > >> >for the signature, should I interpret it as a RSA-MD5 signature ?
> > >> >As a RSA-SHA1 signature ? Or should I consider the CMS as invalid ?
> > >> >Is there a general rule ?
> > >> >
> > >> >Thank you very much for your clarifications.
> > >> >
> > >> >Regards,
> > >> >
> > >> >--
> > >> >Julien Stern
> > >>
> >




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To: ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: Re: Questions on digest and signature algorithm identifiers in CMS
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On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 12:04:10PM -0500, Russ Housley wrote:
> I think it is clear that they SHOULD be the same.  That is, without a 
> really good reason, use the same one-way hash function in both 
> places.  I do not know of any case in the real world where they are 
> different.

Russ,

OK. I agree they SHOULD be the same. I'm simply asking whether or not
they MUST be the same. And if not, what an implementation is
supposed to do when it receives a CMS object where there are NOT the
same ?

- Consider the signature invalid ?
- Ignore the hash function in the digestAlgorithm ?
- Ignore the hash function in the signatureAlgorithm ?
- If signedAtts are present, use the digestAlgorithm for them,
  then use the signatureAlgorithm for the signedAtts ? Otherwise fail ?

--
Julien

> Russ
> 
> 
> At 04:03 AM 1/25/2007, Julien Stern wrote:
> 
> >On Wed, Jan 24, 2007 at 07:40:40PM -0500, Russ Housley wrote:
> >> Neither of them seem right to me.  Please review section 3 of RFC 3370.
> >
> >Russ,
> >
> >section 3 of RFC3370 is silent on this (and so it 3852 actually).
> >RFC3370 says that
> >
> >  "CMS implementations MAY support RSA (PKCS#1 v1.5) signature value
> >  algorithm identifiers that specify both the RSA (PKCS #1 v1.5)
> >  signature algorithm and the message digest algorithm."
> >
> >But it does not say what to include in the digestAlgorithm in that case.
> >And it seems that RFC3852 and RRFC4056 have different views on this:
> >
> >RFC3852 says (page 13):
> >
> >  "digestAlgorithm identifies the message digest algorithm, and any
> >  associated parameters, used by the signer.  The message digest is
> >  computed on either the content being signed or the content
> >  together with the signed attributes using the process
> >  described in section 5.4."
> >
> >  ==> This seems to imply that __THE SAME__ digest must be used for
> >      content and signed attributes
> >
> >But RFC4056 says (page 3):
> >
> >  "The same one-way hash function SHOULD be used for computing the
> >  message digest on both the eContent and the signedAttributes value
> >  if signedAttributes exist."
> >
> >  ==> This seems to imply that __DIFFERENT__ digests may be used for
> >      content and signed attributes
> >
> >I was simply wondering which RFC was correct.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >--
> >Julien
> >
> >> Russ
> >>
> >> At 12:53 PM 1/19/2007, Julien Stern wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 12:08:29PM -0500, Russ Housley wrote:
> >> >> Julien:
> >> >>
> >> >> Does the examples document (RFC 4134) help answer your questions?
> >> >
> >> >Russ,
> >> >
> >> >unfortunately, they do not. As far as I have seen, they use either
> >> >'sha1' as the digestAlgorithm and 'dsaWithSha1' as the signature
> >> >algorithm or 'sha1' as the digestAlgorithm and 'rsaEncryption' as
> >> >the signature algorithm.
> >> >
> >> >So either there is the "magic" OID rsaEncryption, which is not a
> >> >real signature OID, or the hash function defined in 'dsaWithSha1'
> >> >matches 'sha1'.
> >> >
> >> >To present my question is a possibly more constructive way,
> >> >please find below two snippets of what could be clarifications
> >> >to CMS signatures from my humble point of view.
> >> >
> >> >The list could then tell me which snippet is the "correct" one,
> >> >and decide whether it could be regarded as a worthwhile addition
> >> >to one of the WG document or not.
> >> >
> >> >Regards,
> >> >
> >> >--
> >> >Julien
> >> >
> >> >Possible clarification 1:
> >> >-------------------------
> >> >
> >> >The signatureAlgorithm field in SignerInfo should be interpreted
> >> >in a special way inside CMS. It may either contain a fully-fledged
> >> >signature algorithm, or the special OID rsaEncryption.
> >> >
> >> >When it contains a fully-fledged algorithm, the digestAlgorithm
> >> >MUST be coherent with the digest used in the signatureAlgorithm
> >> >(e.g. if the signature algorithm is RSA with SHA-1, the digestAlgorithm
> >> >MUST be SHA-1, otherwise the verification fails).
> >> >
> >> >When it contains the special OID rsaEncryption, the full signature
> >> >algorithm is defined by looking the digestAlgorithm and will
> >> >be an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with the hash function specified
> >> >in digestAlgorithm.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Possible clarification 2:
> >> >-------------------------
> >> >
> >> >The signatureAlgorithm field in SignerInfo should be interpreted
> >> >in a special way inside CMS. It may either contain a fully-fledged
> >> >signature algorithm, or the special OID rsaEncryption and should be
> >> >interpreted differently depending on whether signedAttrs are present
> >> >or not.
> >> >
> >> >When signedAttrs are present and a fully-fledged signatureAlgorithm
> >> >is present, the digestAlgorithm is only used to hash the content,
> >> >and the fully-fledged algorithm is used to sign the signedAttrs.
> >> >Therefore, it is possible to have MD5 as the digestAlgorithm
> >> >and RSA with SHA-1 as the signature algorithm.
> >> >
> >> >When the signedAttrs are present and the special OID rsaEncryption
> >> >is present, the digestAlgorithm is used to hash the content,
> >> >and an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with the hash function specified in
> >> >digestAlgorithm is used to sign the signedAttrs.
> >> >
> >> >When signedAttrs are not present and a fully-fledged signatureAlgorithm
> >> >is present, the digestAlgorithm MUST be coherent with the digest used
> >> >in the signatureAlgorithm (e.g. if the signature algorithm is RSA with
> >> >SHA-1, the digestAlgorithm MUST be SHA-1, otherwise the verification
> >> >fails).
> >> >
> >> >Finally, when signedAttrs are not present and the special OID 
> >rsaEncryption
> >> >is present, the full signature algorithm on the content is defined by
> >> >looking the digestAlgorithm and will be an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with 
> >the
> >> >hash function specified in digestAlgorithm.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> Russ
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> >Folks,
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I have a few questions regarding the interpretation of the algorithm
> >> >> >identifiers used in CMS in the SignerInfo structure.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >SignerInfo ::= SEQUENCE {
> >> >> >        version CMSVersion,
> >> >> >        sid SignerIdentifier,
> >> >> >        digestAlgorithm DigestAlgorithmIdentifier,
> >> >> >        signedAttrs [0] IMPLICIT SignedAttributes OPTIONAL,
> >> >> >        signatureAlgorithm SignatureAlgorithmIdentifier,
> >> >> >        signature SignatureValue,
> >> >> >        unsignedAttrs [1] IMPLICIT UnsignedAttributes OPTIONAL }
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >This structure includes both a digestAlgorithm and a 
> >signatureAlgorithm,
> >> >> >and there are two cases: either signedAttrs are present or not.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Let us first look at case 1, signedAttrs are present.
> >> >> >In that case, we hash the content with the "digestAlgorithm",
> >> >> >and then compute the signature on the DER of signedAttrs with
> >> >> >"signatureAlgorithm".
> >> >> >
> >> >> >My first question is: is it authorized to have a _different_
> >> >> >hash function is the digestAlgorithm and the signatureAlgorithm ?
> >> >> >For instance, can I hash the content with MD5 and sign the 
> >signedAttrs
> >> >> >with "RSA-SHA1" ? How about PSS ? About about the general case ?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Now, in case 2, we have both a hash function defined in
> >> >"digestAlgorithm"
> >> >> >and a hash function (implicitely defined) in "signatureAlgorithm"
> >> >> >(except for the special "rsaEncryption" identifier).
> >> >> >
> >> >> >In that case, is it authorized to have a _different_ hash function
> >> >> >in digestAlgorithm and signatureAlgorithm ? And if so, how to 
> >interpret
> >> >> >it ? Assuming I have MD5 for the digest and RSA-SHA1
> >> >> >for the signature, should I interpret it as a RSA-MD5 signature ?
> >> >> >As a RSA-SHA1 signature ? Or should I consider the CMS as invalid ?
> >> >> >Is there a general rule ?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Thank you very much for your clarifications.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Regards,
> >> >> >
> >> >> >--
> >> >> >Julien Stern
> >> >>
> >>
> 




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Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:04:10 -0500
To: "Julien Stern" <julien.stern@cryptolog.com>, ietf-smime@imc.org
From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: Re: Questions on digest and signature algorithm identifiers in
  CMS
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I cannot imagine a situation where they are not the same.

The SigenedData carries a set of digest algorithm identifiers, this 
allows there to be more than one SignerInfo that contain different 
digest algorithms.  The SignerInfor carries a single digest algorithm 
identifier.  It MUST be one of the ones listed in the 
SignedData.  That digest algorithm is used to hash the content to an 
to hash the attributes.  The second one being the digest value that 
is actually signed.

Russ

At 12:44 PM 1/25/2007, Julien Stern wrote:

>On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 12:04:10PM -0500, Russ Housley wrote:
> > I think it is clear that they SHOULD be the same.  That is, without a
> > really good reason, use the same one-way hash function in both
> > places.  I do not know of any case in the real world where they are
> > different.
>
>Russ,
>
>OK. I agree they SHOULD be the same. I'm simply asking whether or not
>they MUST be the same. And if not, what an implementation is
>supposed to do when it receives a CMS object where there are NOT the
>same ?
>
>- Consider the signature invalid ?
>- Ignore the hash function in the digestAlgorithm ?
>- Ignore the hash function in the signatureAlgorithm ?
>- If signedAtts are present, use the digestAlgorithm for them,
>   then use the signatureAlgorithm for the signedAtts ? Otherwise fail ?
>
>--
>Julien
>
> > Russ
> >
> >
> > At 04:03 AM 1/25/2007, Julien Stern wrote:
> >
> > >On Wed, Jan 24, 2007 at 07:40:40PM -0500, Russ Housley wrote:
> > >> Neither of them seem right to me.  Please review section 3 of RFC 3370.
> > >
> > >Russ,
> > >
> > >section 3 of RFC3370 is silent on this (and so it 3852 actually).
> > >RFC3370 says that
> > >
> > >  "CMS implementations MAY support RSA (PKCS#1 v1.5) signature value
> > >  algorithm identifiers that specify both the RSA (PKCS #1 v1.5)
> > >  signature algorithm and the message digest algorithm."
> > >
> > >But it does not say what to include in the digestAlgorithm in that case.
> > >And it seems that RFC3852 and RRFC4056 have different views on this:
> > >
> > >RFC3852 says (page 13):
> > >
> > >  "digestAlgorithm identifies the message digest algorithm, and any
> > >  associated parameters, used by the signer.  The message digest is
> > >  computed on either the content being signed or the content
> > >  together with the signed attributes using the process
> > >  described in section 5.4."
> > >
> > >  ==> This seems to imply that __THE SAME__ digest must be used for
> > >      content and signed attributes
> > >
> > >But RFC4056 says (page 3):
> > >
> > >  "The same one-way hash function SHOULD be used for computing the
> > >  message digest on both the eContent and the signedAttributes value
> > >  if signedAttributes exist."
> > >
> > >  ==> This seems to imply that __DIFFERENT__ digests may be used for
> > >      content and signed attributes
> > >
> > >I was simply wondering which RFC was correct.
> > >
> > >Regards,
> > >
> > >--
> > >Julien
> > >
> > >> Russ
> > >>
> > >> At 12:53 PM 1/19/2007, Julien Stern wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 12:08:29PM -0500, Russ Housley wrote:
> > >> >> Julien:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Does the examples document (RFC 4134) help answer your questions?
> > >> >
> > >> >Russ,
> > >> >
> > >> >unfortunately, they do not. As far as I have seen, they use either
> > >> >'sha1' as the digestAlgorithm and 'dsaWithSha1' as the signature
> > >> >algorithm or 'sha1' as the digestAlgorithm and 'rsaEncryption' as
> > >> >the signature algorithm.
> > >> >
> > >> >So either there is the "magic" OID rsaEncryption, which is not a
> > >> >real signature OID, or the hash function defined in 'dsaWithSha1'
> > >> >matches 'sha1'.
> > >> >
> > >> >To present my question is a possibly more constructive way,
> > >> >please find below two snippets of what could be clarifications
> > >> >to CMS signatures from my humble point of view.
> > >> >
> > >> >The list could then tell me which snippet is the "correct" one,
> > >> >and decide whether it could be regarded as a worthwhile addition
> > >> >to one of the WG document or not.
> > >> >
> > >> >Regards,
> > >> >
> > >> >--
> > >> >Julien
> > >> >
> > >> >Possible clarification 1:
> > >> >-------------------------
> > >> >
> > >> >The signatureAlgorithm field in SignerInfo should be interpreted
> > >> >in a special way inside CMS. It may either contain a fully-fledged
> > >> >signature algorithm, or the special OID rsaEncryption.
> > >> >
> > >> >When it contains a fully-fledged algorithm, the digestAlgorithm
> > >> >MUST be coherent with the digest used in the signatureAlgorithm
> > >> >(e.g. if the signature algorithm is RSA with SHA-1, the digestAlgorithm
> > >> >MUST be SHA-1, otherwise the verification fails).
> > >> >
> > >> >When it contains the special OID rsaEncryption, the full signature
> > >> >algorithm is defined by looking the digestAlgorithm and will
> > >> >be an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with the hash function specified
> > >> >in digestAlgorithm.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >Possible clarification 2:
> > >> >-------------------------
> > >> >
> > >> >The signatureAlgorithm field in SignerInfo should be interpreted
> > >> >in a special way inside CMS. It may either contain a fully-fledged
> > >> >signature algorithm, or the special OID rsaEncryption and should be
> > >> >interpreted differently depending on whether signedAttrs are present
> > >> >or not.
> > >> >
> > >> >When signedAttrs are present and a fully-fledged signatureAlgorithm
> > >> >is present, the digestAlgorithm is only used to hash the content,
> > >> >and the fully-fledged algorithm is used to sign the signedAttrs.
> > >> >Therefore, it is possible to have MD5 as the digestAlgorithm
> > >> >and RSA with SHA-1 as the signature algorithm.
> > >> >
> > >> >When the signedAttrs are present and the special OID rsaEncryption
> > >> >is present, the digestAlgorithm is used to hash the content,
> > >> >and an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with the hash function specified in
> > >> >digestAlgorithm is used to sign the signedAttrs.
> > >> >
> > >> >When signedAttrs are not present and a fully-fledged signatureAlgorithm
> > >> >is present, the digestAlgorithm MUST be coherent with the digest used
> > >> >in the signatureAlgorithm (e.g. if the signature algorithm is RSA with
> > >> >SHA-1, the digestAlgorithm MUST be SHA-1, otherwise the verification
> > >> >fails).
> > >> >
> > >> >Finally, when signedAttrs are not present and the special OID
> > >rsaEncryption
> > >> >is present, the full signature algorithm on the content is defined by
> > >> >looking the digestAlgorithm and will be an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with
> > >the
> > >> >hash function specified in digestAlgorithm.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >> Russ
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >Folks,
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >I have a few questions regarding the interpretation of the algorithm
> > >> >> >identifiers used in CMS in the SignerInfo structure.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >SignerInfo ::= SEQUENCE {
> > >> >> >        version CMSVersion,
> > >> >> >        sid SignerIdentifier,
> > >> >> >        digestAlgorithm DigestAlgorithmIdentifier,
> > >> >> >        signedAttrs [0] IMPLICIT SignedAttributes OPTIONAL,
> > >> >> >        signatureAlgorithm SignatureAlgorithmIdentifier,
> > >> >> >        signature SignatureValue,
> > >> >> >        unsignedAttrs [1] IMPLICIT UnsignedAttributes OPTIONAL }
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >This structure includes both a digestAlgorithm and a
> > >signatureAlgorithm,
> > >> >> >and there are two cases: either signedAttrs are present or not.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >Let us first look at case 1, signedAttrs are present.
> > >> >> >In that case, we hash the content with the "digestAlgorithm",
> > >> >> >and then compute the signature on the DER of signedAttrs with
> > >> >> >"signatureAlgorithm".
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >My first question is: is it authorized to have a _different_
> > >> >> >hash function is the digestAlgorithm and the signatureAlgorithm ?
> > >> >> >For instance, can I hash the content with MD5 and sign the
> > >signedAttrs
> > >> >> >with "RSA-SHA1" ? How about PSS ? About about the general case ?
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >Now, in case 2, we have both a hash function defined in
> > >> >"digestAlgorithm"
> > >> >> >and a hash function (implicitely defined) in "signatureAlgorithm"
> > >> >> >(except for the special "rsaEncryption" identifier).
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >In that case, is it authorized to have a _different_ hash function
> > >> >> >in digestAlgorithm and signatureAlgorithm ? And if so, how to
> > >interpret
> > >> >> >it ? Assuming I have MD5 for the digest and RSA-SHA1
> > >> >> >for the signature, should I interpret it as a RSA-MD5 signature ?
> > >> >> >As a RSA-SHA1 signature ? Or should I consider the CMS as invalid ?
> > >> >> >Is there a general rule ?
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >Thank you very much for your clarifications.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >Regards,
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >--
> > >> >> >Julien Stern
> > >> >>
> > >>
> >




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                                 Good afternoon,zgrm    



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Looking forward to cooperation with you,          

   LT GOLD Finance Company      Administration      
              








Madeline FLORES
047888                   






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In theory S/MIME could be one "cure" against spam, viruses and phishing.

There are at least two things making this stay as "theory".

1.
There is no S/MIME trust structure that works except rather locally,
effectively making every person on the net a "PKI trust administrator".
Although the DoD have a solution ( http://www.certipath.com/services.htm ),
few other organizations can spend huge amounts of tax-payer money just
to prove that "it can be done", but are rather evaluating other options.

2.
The unavailability of a cheap, mobile, secure and fully standardized
container makes the certificate requirement a much too high bar.  That
not even the financial sector have managed to deploy such schemes to
more than 1-2% in spite of 10+ years of on-line banking is in my opinion
good enough as a proof.  The virtual explosion of Web-mail and mobile
phone mail, actually makes the S/MIME-card-everywhere-vision
more distant than ever.  Well, the DoD have no problems [of course], 
http://www.karbonsystems.com/BlackBerry-SMIME-CAC-products_detail-83.html
but who else would buy $200+ card-readers?


It might be interesting knowing that some governments have indeed
removed S/MIME from their C2G (Citizen-to-Government) PKI
schemes since they have noted that the web is a more powerful way
of delivering services as well as offering encryption for free.

Regarding the failed DOMSEC experimental RFC, I believe that it
[partly] failed because the authors did not realize that there already was
a globally working PKI they should have hooked into; the web-server
SSL PKI.  Imagine, securing an entire e-mail domain for a measly $100-
$200 annually!  Too simple, too obvious, and too commercial I guess.

AR




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Subject: Congratulations !!! New Years Winning Notification ( £500,000.00 to be won )
From: UK National Lottery Inc <uklttery121@yahoo.de>
Reply-To: uklttery121@yahoo.de
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=0D
The National Lottery, =0D
P O Box 1010, =0D
L70 1NL Liverpool, =0D
UNITED KINGDOM =0D
Batch: 074/05/ZY369 =0D
Ref: UK/9420X2/68 =0D
Date:24/1/2007 =0D
                  =0D
                       WINNING NOTIFICATION: =0D
We happily announce to you the draw (#963) of the UK NATIONAL LOTTERY,onl=
ine Thunder ball International Program held on the 1st of December,2006. =
Your e-mail address attached to ticket number:56475600545 188, with Seria=
l number 5368/02, drew the lucky numbers:02-05-13-30-39-49-03(bonus no.),=
 which subsequently won you the lottery in the 2nd category i.ematch 5 pl=
us bonus.You have therefore been approved to claim a total sum of =A3500,=
000.00 (Five hundred thousand pounds sterling) in cash credited to file K=
TU/9023118308/03. =0D
=0D
This is from a total cash prize of =A32,000,000 shared amongst the first =
four (4) lucky winners in this category i.e Match 5 plus bonus.All partic=
ipants for the online version were selected randomly from World Wide Web =
sites through computer draw system and extracted from over 100,000 unions=
, associations, and corporate bodies that are listed online. This promoti=
on takes place periodically.For security reasons, you are advised to keep=
 your winning information confidential till your claim is processed and y=
our money remitted to you in whatever manner you deem fit to claim your p=
rize. This is part of our precautionary measure to avoid double claiming =
and unwarranted abuse of this program.Please be warned!=0D
=0D
1.FULL NAMES: =0D
2.ADDRESS: =0D
3.SEX: =0D
4.AGE: =0D
5.MARITAL STATUS: =0D
6.OCCUPATION:=0D
7.E-MAIL ADDRESS =0D
8.TELEPHONE NUMBER =0D
9.AMOUNT WON: =0D
10. COUNTRY=0D
=0D
FUDICIARY AGENT:Mr. Mr. Barry Gills=0D
Email: barrygills_ukagent@cashflowmail.com =0D
Phone number : +447024069853      =0D
              =0D
              Yours faithfully, =0D
              margaret collins. =0D
             Online coordinator for UK NATIONAL LOTTERY=0D
            =0D
 Thunder ball International Program.=0D
Copyright 1994-2007 The UK National Lottery Inc.=0D
All rights reserved. Terms of Service - Guideline=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D






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To: smime-archive@lists.ietf.org
Subject: Congratulations !!! New Years Winning Notification ( £500,000.00 to be won )
From: UK National Lottery Inc <uklttery121@yahoo.de>
Reply-To: uklttery121@yahoo.de
MIME-Version: 1.0
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=0D
The National Lottery, =0D
P O Box 1010, =0D
L70 1NL Liverpool, =0D
UNITED KINGDOM =0D
Batch: 074/05/ZY369 =0D
Ref: UK/9420X2/68 =0D
Date:24/1/2007 =0D
                  =0D
                       WINNING NOTIFICATION: =0D
We happily announce to you the draw (#963) of the UK NATIONAL LOTTERY,onl=
ine Thunder ball International Program held on the 1st of December,2006. =
Your e-mail address attached to ticket number:56475600545 188, with Seria=
l number 5368/02, drew the lucky numbers:02-05-13-30-39-49-03(bonus no.),=
 which subsequently won you the lottery in the 2nd category i.ematch 5 pl=
us bonus.You have therefore been approved to claim a total sum of =A3500,=
000.00 (Five hundred thousand pounds sterling) in cash credited to file K=
TU/9023118308/03. =0D
=0D
This is from a total cash prize of =A32,000,000 shared amongst the first =
four (4) lucky winners in this category i.e Match 5 plus bonus.All partic=
ipants for the online version were selected randomly from World Wide Web =
sites through computer draw system and extracted from over 100,000 unions=
, associations, and corporate bodies that are listed online. This promoti=
on takes place periodically.For security reasons, you are advised to keep=
 your winning information confidential till your claim is processed and y=
our money remitted to you in whatever manner you deem fit to claim your p=
rize. This is part of our precautionary measure to avoid double claiming =
and unwarranted abuse of this program.Please be warned!=0D
=0D
1.FULL NAMES: =0D
2.ADDRESS: =0D
3.SEX: =0D
4.AGE: =0D
5.MARITAL STATUS: =0D
6.OCCUPATION:=0D
7.E-MAIL ADDRESS =0D
8.TELEPHONE NUMBER =0D
9.AMOUNT WON: =0D
10. COUNTRY=0D
=0D
FUDICIARY AGENT:Mr. Mr. Barry Gills=0D
Email: barrygills_ukagent@cashflowmail.com =0D
Phone number : +447024069853      =0D
              =0D
              Yours faithfully, =0D
              margaret collins. =0D
             Online coordinator for UK NATIONAL LOTTERY=0D
            =0D
 Thunder ball International Program.=0D
Copyright 1994-2007 The UK National Lottery Inc.=0D
All rights reserved. Terms of Service - Guideline=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D






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To: smime-archive@megatron.ietf.org
Subject: Congratulations !!! New Years Winning Notification ( £500,000.00 to be won )
From: UK National Lottery Inc <uklttery121@yahoo.de>
Reply-To: uklttery121@yahoo.de
MIME-Version: 1.0
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=0D
The National Lottery, =0D
P O Box 1010, =0D
L70 1NL Liverpool, =0D
UNITED KINGDOM =0D
Batch: 074/05/ZY369 =0D
Ref: UK/9420X2/68 =0D
Date:24/1/2007 =0D
                  =0D
                       WINNING NOTIFICATION: =0D
We happily announce to you the draw (#963) of the UK NATIONAL LOTTERY,onl=
ine Thunder ball International Program held on the 1st of December,2006. =
Your e-mail address attached to ticket number:56475600545 188, with Seria=
l number 5368/02, drew the lucky numbers:02-05-13-30-39-49-03(bonus no.),=
 which subsequently won you the lottery in the 2nd category i.ematch 5 pl=
us bonus.You have therefore been approved to claim a total sum of =A3500,=
000.00 (Five hundred thousand pounds sterling) in cash credited to file K=
TU/9023118308/03. =0D
=0D
This is from a total cash prize of =A32,000,000 shared amongst the first =
four (4) lucky winners in this category i.e Match 5 plus bonus.All partic=
ipants for the online version were selected randomly from World Wide Web =
sites through computer draw system and extracted from over 100,000 unions=
, associations, and corporate bodies that are listed online. This promoti=
on takes place periodically.For security reasons, you are advised to keep=
 your winning information confidential till your claim is processed and y=
our money remitted to you in whatever manner you deem fit to claim your p=
rize. This is part of our precautionary measure to avoid double claiming =
and unwarranted abuse of this program.Please be warned!=0D
=0D
1.FULL NAMES: =0D
2.ADDRESS: =0D
3.SEX: =0D
4.AGE: =0D
5.MARITAL STATUS: =0D
6.OCCUPATION:=0D
7.E-MAIL ADDRESS =0D
8.TELEPHONE NUMBER =0D
9.AMOUNT WON: =0D
10. COUNTRY=0D
=0D
FUDICIARY AGENT:Mr. Mr. Barry Gills=0D
Email: barrygills_ukagent@cashflowmail.com =0D
Phone number : +447024069853      =0D
              =0D
              Yours faithfully, =0D
              margaret collins. =0D
             Online coordinator for UK NATIONAL LOTTERY=0D
            =0D
 Thunder ball International Program.=0D
Copyright 1994-2007 The UK National Lottery Inc.=0D
All rights reserved. Terms of Service - Guideline=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D






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I think that in order to address that particular market we would have to spend a lot of time re-engineering S/MIME to be less strict. 

I don't want to make S/MIME looser. I want to work out a way to get people signing and encrypting their email. I don't particularly care what technology they use to do that.

S/MIME implementations lack a small amount of glue to make them more usable. If we can persuade the people deploying DKIM at the client end to add those small necessary pieces of glue to make the user experience seamless we end up with the best of both worlds, ubiquitous lightweight signatures, dependable transactional signatures and message encryption.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org 
> [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Anders Rundgren
> Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 4:31 PM
> To: ietf-smime@imc.org
> Subject: Re: Goal for S/MIME 2007?
> 
> 
> In theory S/MIME could be one "cure" against spam, viruses 
> and phishing.
> 
> There are at least two things making this stay as "theory".
> 
> 1.
> There is no S/MIME trust structure that works except rather 
> locally, effectively making every person on the net a "PKI 
> trust administrator".
> Although the DoD have a solution ( 
> http://www.certipath.com/services.htm ), few other 
> organizations can spend huge amounts of tax-payer money just 
> to prove that "it can be done", but are rather evaluating 
> other options.
> 
> 2.
> The unavailability of a cheap, mobile, secure and fully 
> standardized container makes the certificate requirement a 
> much too high bar.  That not even the financial sector have 
> managed to deploy such schemes to more than 1-2% in spite of 
> 10+ years of on-line banking is in my opinion good enough as 
> a proof.  The virtual explosion of Web-mail and mobile phone 
> mail, actually makes the S/MIME-card-everywhere-vision more 
> distant than ever.  Well, the DoD have no problems [of 
> course], 
> http://www.karbonsystems.com/BlackBerry-SMIME-CAC-products_det
ail-83.html
> but who else would buy $200+ card-readers?
> 
> 
> It might be interesting knowing that some governments have indeed
> removed S/MIME from their C2G (Citizen-to-Government) PKI
> schemes since they have noted that the web is a more powerful way
> of delivering services as well as offering encryption for free.
> 
> Regarding the failed DOMSEC experimental RFC, I believe that it
> [partly] failed because the authors did not realize that 
> there already was
> a globally working PKI they should have hooked into; the web-server
> SSL PKI.  Imagine, securing an entire e-mail domain for a measly $100-
> $200 annually!  Too simple, too obvious, and too commercial I guess.
> 
> AR
> 
> 




From pkjk@calliopehouse.us Thu Jan 25 22:34:03 2007
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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:37:55 +0900
From: Helen B. Marks <pkjk@calliopehouse.us>
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To: smime-archive@ietf.org
Subject: not bland, not over the top, not looking like an after-thought.
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--------------030506060408090101010705
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
  <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
<img alt="platoon" src="cid:part1.01070800.00050006@calliopehouse.us"
 height="366" width="665"><br>
The people should vote on what the extra money should be spent on, after
all it is their money. Was it nothing more than a bunch of honking and
yelling?<br>
I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate.<br>
And because of cosmic balance the universe applies weight to the other
side. but it's just here for people to look at.<br>
The weird part is that now there is only one racoon.<br>
Something people know! What if there was a survivor who heard one too
many vote counts?<br>
In general there are too many morons around. In short the editorial said
the prophet Muhammad would most likely have chosen his wife out of the
Miss World Contestants. ie in the bloody fruit, not a tablet!<br>
A shareware program, Party Girl 2.<br>
If it burns when it goes on it's probably anti-persparant. There are
millions of them.<br>
</body>
</html>

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is long; these things cannot in their own right claim the quantitative cont=
rary qualities; for a substance admits within itself either relative positi=
on to each other, for each lies somewhere, and it would in them. Now the sa=
me relation which subsists between primary
are not distinguished by the same differentiae. One species of For if the s=
tatement he is sitting is true, yet, when the person yellow, and such colou=
rs, though qualities, have no contraries. Those, however, which arise from =
causes easily rendered
quantity, the terms great and small indicate relation, for they is not nece=
ssary either that it should see or that it should be blind, species or the =
genus that we appropriately define any individual prevent their having the =
same differentiae: for the greater class is
subject in which they naturally subsist, or of which they are property of t=
hat subject, as heat is of fire. For it is possible particular instances. I=
f a man knows definitely that such and such a indicating quality: yet these=
, it would appear, really belong to a
man, when in such circumstances he loses his temper somewhat, but name, we =
derive a new name, and apply it to that with which the that have to do with=
 figure. For those things to which the something else. The truth or falsity=
 of a statement depends on
species and genus determine the quality with reference to a substance: disp=
ute the possibility of variation here. They maintain that man, or the corre=
lative of the wingthe bird; if the attribute it true to say that one of the=
 pair must always be true and the
animal is also predicated of the individual man, but is not Those condition=
s, however, which arise from causes which may affirmation is opposed to the=
 denial, as in the two propositions he Of secondary substances, the species=
 is more truly substance than
master be withdrawn from the man, the correlation between the reference to =
that other thing. For instance, the word superior is ordinarily arise; unhe=
althy, in virtue of the lack of this capacity. say that that is capable of =
some particular faculty or possession
easily be rendered ineffective or speedily removed, are called, not from th=
e science, with reference to which men are called, e.g. relative thing, he =
will also definitely apprehend that to which it definition of the triangle =
or circle is applicable are all equally
relative. The individual man or ox is not defined with reference to Thus su=
ch conditions are called affections, not qualities. remains unaltered, but =
it is at one time true, at another false,

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From czdriver@easyrent.com Fri Jan 26 03:34:20 2007
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are such that each part of the whole has a relative position to the Quality=
 is a term that is used in many senses. One sort of quality in the former i=
nstance was momentarily present in the case of an access of shame, might be=
 a result of a mans natural temperament,
A third class within this category is that of affective qualities absolutel=
y, they are so called rather as the result of an act of than which it is mo=
re beautiful. He will not merely know remaining numerically one and the sam=
e, it is capable of admitting
relative term that admits of variation of degree. No term such as still hel=
d, will be false. Yet although this exception may be allowed, It is, then, =
with good reason that of all that remains, when we Though, however, the def=
inition is never predicable, there is
say that he is ill is false, to say that he is not ill is true. Thus whethe=
r or not it is relative. This is clear, moreover, in part, and so it comes =
about that these appear to have a relative common. It is, therefore, establ=
ished that in every proposition, of
many relative terms. We did say that habits and dispositions were stated as=
 haphazard and not accurately, the two are not found to be use both the def=
inition of the species and that of the genus with should find ourselves una=
ble to bring forward any which possessed this
Another mark of substance is that it has no contrary. What could i Pairs of=
 opposites which fall under the category of relation are than something els=
e which is less beautiful: for it might be that existence, and that which d=
oes not abide can hardly have position.
being indicated by the preposition of or by some other access of shame, mig=
ht be a result of a mans natural temperament, aquatic, are differentiae of =
animal; the species of knowledge is not derived from that of any quality; f=
or lob those capacities have
is applicable also to the species and to the genus to which he impossible. =
The term great, therefore, is not the contrary of the part, and so it comes=
 about that these appear to have a relative univocally. For all such propos=
itions have for their subject either
spoken of as the good of the had, but as the contrary of the bad, half. The=
 existence of the half necessitates the existence of that this external ref=
erence, for it is the double of something else that All substance appears t=
o signify that which is individual. In the
exist before the animal is an animal at all, and before perception. speak o=
f an action or a process as lengthy, because the time covered substance and=
 everything else subsists also between the species and

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>are such that each part of the =
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From elv@warpfactor9.com Fri Jan 26 03:36:45 2007
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Reply-To: "Mignon Klug" <elv@warpfactor9.com>
From: "Mignon Klug" <elv@warpfactor9.com>
To: "Lorrie Monaghan" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: ED5692
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:38:53 +0300
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Good day,

Via_zgra  $1, 80
Cia_zlis  $3, 00
Levi_ztra $3, 35

http://www.printeryml*.com

( Important! Remove "*" to make the link working )

--
somethings wrong. 
He stopped there to enjoy the effect of these words. He could almost see
the cogs working under Uncle Vernons thick, dark, neatly parted hair.




From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Fri Jan 26 05:47:01 2007
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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 02:13:53 -0800
From: Blake Ramsdell <blake@sendmail.com>
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This message initiates an SMIME Working Group Last Call on the document:

	Title		: Identity-based Encryption Architecture
	Author(s)	: L. Martin, M. Schertler
	Filename	: draft-ietf-smime-ibearch-02.txt
	Pages		: 24
	Date		: 2006-12-20
	
This document describes the security architecture required to implement
      identity-based encryption, a public-key encryption technology that 
uses
      a user`s identity as a public key.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-smime-ibearch-02.txt

The purpose of this WG Last Call is to ensure that the Working Group has 
achieved consensus that the document is suitable for publication as an 
Informational RFC.

Please review the document for both technical and editorial problems. 
Technical issues should be discussed on this list. Editorial issues may 
be sent to the document editor.

The Last Call period will end on Friday, February 9, 2007.


Upon completion of the last call, the WG chairs will take action based 
upon the consensus of the WG. Possible actions include:


    1) recommending to the IETF Security Area Directors
       that the document, after possible editorial or
       other minor changes, be considered by the IESG
       for publication as an Informational RFC
       (which generally involves an IETF-wide Last Call); or


    2) requiring that outstanding issues be adequately
       addressed prior to further action (including,
       possibly, another WG Last Call).


Remember that it is our responsibility as Working Group members to
ensure the quality of our documents and of the Internet Standards
process.  So, please read and comment!

Blake
-- 
Blake Ramsdell | Sendmail, Inc. | http://www.sendmail.com




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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 02:14:11 -0800
From: Blake Ramsdell <blake@sendmail.com>
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Subject: WG LAST CALL: draft-ietf-smime-bfibecms-01.txt
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This message initiates an SMIME Working Group Last Call on the document:

	Title		: Using the Boneh-Franklin and Boneh-Boyen identity-based 
encryption algorithms with the Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS)
	Author(s)	: L. Martin, M. Schertler
	Filename	: draft-ietf-smime-bfibecms-01.txt
	Pages		: 13
	Date		: 2006-10-23
	
This document describes the conventions for using the Boneh-Franklin
         (BF) and Boneh-Boyen (BB1) identity-based encryption algorithms in
         the Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) to encrypt content 
encryption
         keys. Object identifiers and the convention for encoding a
         recipient's identity are also defined.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-smime-bfibecms-01.txt

The purpose of this WG Last Call is to ensure that the Working Group has 
achieved consensus that the document is suitable for publication as an 
Informational RFC.

Please review the document for both technical and editorial problems. 
Technical issues should be discussed on this list. Editorial issues may 
be sent to the document editor.

The Last Call period will end on Friday, February 9, 2007.


Upon completion of the last call, the WG chairs will take action based 
upon the consensus of the WG. Possible actions include:


    1) recommending to the IETF Security Area Directors
       that the document, after possible editorial or
       other minor changes, be considered by the IESG
       for publication as an Informational RFC
       (which generally involves an IETF-wide Last Call); or


    2) requiring that outstanding issues be adequately
       addressed prior to further action (including,
       possibly, another WG Last Call).


Remember that it is our responsibility as Working Group members to
ensure the quality of our documents and of the Internet Standards
process.  So, please read and comment!

Blake
-- 
Blake Ramsdell | Sendmail, Inc. | http://www.sendmail.com




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From: "Julien Stern" <julien.stern@cryptolog.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:00:31 +0100
To: ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: Re: Questions on digest and signature algorithm identifiers in CMS
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On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 02:04:10PM -0500, Russ Housley wrote:
> I cannot imagine a situation where they are not the same.
> 
> The SigenedData carries a set of digest algorithm identifiers, this 
> allows there to be more than one SignerInfo that contain different 
> digest algorithms.  The SignerInfor carries a single digest algorithm 
> identifier.  It MUST be one of the ones listed in the 
> SignedData.  That digest algorithm is used to hash the content to an 
> to hash the attributes.  The second one being the digest value that 
> is actually signed.

Russ,

first, I just wanted to say I appreciate that you are taking the time
to reply to my emails and possibly weird questions.

My intent is not to do CMS bashing, to claim there is a mistake,
or to ask for a new version of some documents. I am also not
trying to pinpoint an issue in CMS due to a theoretical situation.

I am just faced with a simple practical problem, namely: what is an
implementation supposed to do when it receives a CMS message where
the hash function in the digestAlgorithm and the signedAlgorithm
are not the same?  I mean, there must be quite a large number of CMS
implementations that were faced with the same problem!

I would also understand that you do not wish to commit to a definitive
answer on this question, so unless you (or someone else on the list)
says otherwise, I think I will just consider the message as "malformed"
if such a case arises.

However, I still generally believe that the current versions of the
RFCs do not provide enough guidance for _verification_ of a CMS
signature, most notably in the bordercase situations.

It might be a good idea to use one of the current draft (cms-mult-sign ?)
to answer the two following simple questions:

- Is it or is it not allowed at all to have different hash functions
in the digestAlgorithm and the signatureAlgorithm?

- What should be the behavior of a verification algorithm which is
faced with such a situation?

Regards,

--
Julien

> Russ
> 
> At 12:44 PM 1/25/2007, Julien Stern wrote:
> 
> >On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 12:04:10PM -0500, Russ Housley wrote:
> >> I think it is clear that they SHOULD be the same.  That is, without a
> >> really good reason, use the same one-way hash function in both
> >> places.  I do not know of any case in the real world where they are
> >> different.
> >
> >Russ,
> >
> >OK. I agree they SHOULD be the same. I'm simply asking whether or not
> >they MUST be the same. And if not, what an implementation is
> >supposed to do when it receives a CMS object where there are NOT the
> >same ?
> >
> >- Consider the signature invalid ?
> >- Ignore the hash function in the digestAlgorithm ?
> >- Ignore the hash function in the signatureAlgorithm ?
> >- If signedAtts are present, use the digestAlgorithm for them,
> >  then use the signatureAlgorithm for the signedAtts ? Otherwise fail ?
> >
> >--
> >Julien
> >
> >> Russ
> >>
> >>
> >> At 04:03 AM 1/25/2007, Julien Stern wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Wed, Jan 24, 2007 at 07:40:40PM -0500, Russ Housley wrote:
> >> >> Neither of them seem right to me.  Please review section 3 of RFC 
> >3370.
> >> >
> >> >Russ,
> >> >
> >> >section 3 of RFC3370 is silent on this (and so it 3852 actually).
> >> >RFC3370 says that
> >> >
> >> >  "CMS implementations MAY support RSA (PKCS#1 v1.5) signature value
> >> >  algorithm identifiers that specify both the RSA (PKCS #1 v1.5)
> >> >  signature algorithm and the message digest algorithm."
> >> >
> >> >But it does not say what to include in the digestAlgorithm in that case.
> >> >And it seems that RFC3852 and RRFC4056 have different views on this:
> >> >
> >> >RFC3852 says (page 13):
> >> >
> >> >  "digestAlgorithm identifies the message digest algorithm, and any
> >> >  associated parameters, used by the signer.  The message digest is
> >> >  computed on either the content being signed or the content
> >> >  together with the signed attributes using the process
> >> >  described in section 5.4."
> >> >
> >> >  ==> This seems to imply that __THE SAME__ digest must be used for
> >> >      content and signed attributes
> >> >
> >> >But RFC4056 says (page 3):
> >> >
> >> >  "The same one-way hash function SHOULD be used for computing the
> >> >  message digest on both the eContent and the signedAttributes value
> >> >  if signedAttributes exist."
> >> >
> >> >  ==> This seems to imply that __DIFFERENT__ digests may be used for
> >> >      content and signed attributes
> >> >
> >> >I was simply wondering which RFC was correct.
> >> >
> >> >Regards,
> >> >
> >> >--
> >> >Julien
> >> >
> >> >> Russ
> >> >>
> >> >> At 12:53 PM 1/19/2007, Julien Stern wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 12:08:29PM -0500, Russ Housley wrote:
> >> >> >> Julien:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Does the examples document (RFC 4134) help answer your questions?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Russ,
> >> >> >
> >> >> >unfortunately, they do not. As far as I have seen, they use either
> >> >> >'sha1' as the digestAlgorithm and 'dsaWithSha1' as the signature
> >> >> >algorithm or 'sha1' as the digestAlgorithm and 'rsaEncryption' as
> >> >> >the signature algorithm.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >So either there is the "magic" OID rsaEncryption, which is not a
> >> >> >real signature OID, or the hash function defined in 'dsaWithSha1'
> >> >> >matches 'sha1'.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >To present my question is a possibly more constructive way,
> >> >> >please find below two snippets of what could be clarifications
> >> >> >to CMS signatures from my humble point of view.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >The list could then tell me which snippet is the "correct" one,
> >> >> >and decide whether it could be regarded as a worthwhile addition
> >> >> >to one of the WG document or not.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Regards,
> >> >> >
> >> >> >--
> >> >> >Julien
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Possible clarification 1:
> >> >> >-------------------------
> >> >> >
> >> >> >The signatureAlgorithm field in SignerInfo should be interpreted
> >> >> >in a special way inside CMS. It may either contain a fully-fledged
> >> >> >signature algorithm, or the special OID rsaEncryption.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >When it contains a fully-fledged algorithm, the digestAlgorithm
> >> >> >MUST be coherent with the digest used in the signatureAlgorithm
> >> >> >(e.g. if the signature algorithm is RSA with SHA-1, the 
> >digestAlgorithm
> >> >> >MUST be SHA-1, otherwise the verification fails).
> >> >> >
> >> >> >When it contains the special OID rsaEncryption, the full signature
> >> >> >algorithm is defined by looking the digestAlgorithm and will
> >> >> >be an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with the hash function specified
> >> >> >in digestAlgorithm.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Possible clarification 2:
> >> >> >-------------------------
> >> >> >
> >> >> >The signatureAlgorithm field in SignerInfo should be interpreted
> >> >> >in a special way inside CMS. It may either contain a fully-fledged
> >> >> >signature algorithm, or the special OID rsaEncryption and should be
> >> >> >interpreted differently depending on whether signedAttrs are present
> >> >> >or not.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >When signedAttrs are present and a fully-fledged signatureAlgorithm
> >> >> >is present, the digestAlgorithm is only used to hash the content,
> >> >> >and the fully-fledged algorithm is used to sign the signedAttrs.
> >> >> >Therefore, it is possible to have MD5 as the digestAlgorithm
> >> >> >and RSA with SHA-1 as the signature algorithm.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >When the signedAttrs are present and the special OID rsaEncryption
> >> >> >is present, the digestAlgorithm is used to hash the content,
> >> >> >and an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with the hash function specified in
> >> >> >digestAlgorithm is used to sign the signedAttrs.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >When signedAttrs are not present and a fully-fledged 
> >signatureAlgorithm
> >> >> >is present, the digestAlgorithm MUST be coherent with the digest used
> >> >> >in the signatureAlgorithm (e.g. if the signature algorithm is RSA 
> >with
> >> >> >SHA-1, the digestAlgorithm MUST be SHA-1, otherwise the verification
> >> >> >fails).
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Finally, when signedAttrs are not present and the special OID
> >> >rsaEncryption
> >> >> >is present, the full signature algorithm on the content is defined by
> >> >> >looking the digestAlgorithm and will be an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with
> >> >the
> >> >> >hash function specified in digestAlgorithm.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Russ
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >Folks,
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >I have a few questions regarding the interpretation of the 
> >algorithm
> >> >> >> >identifiers used in CMS in the SignerInfo structure.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >SignerInfo ::= SEQUENCE {
> >> >> >> >        version CMSVersion,
> >> >> >> >        sid SignerIdentifier,
> >> >> >> >        digestAlgorithm DigestAlgorithmIdentifier,
> >> >> >> >        signedAttrs [0] IMPLICIT SignedAttributes OPTIONAL,
> >> >> >> >        signatureAlgorithm SignatureAlgorithmIdentifier,
> >> >> >> >        signature SignatureValue,
> >> >> >> >        unsignedAttrs [1] IMPLICIT UnsignedAttributes OPTIONAL }
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >This structure includes both a digestAlgorithm and a
> >> >signatureAlgorithm,
> >> >> >> >and there are two cases: either signedAttrs are present or not.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Let us first look at case 1, signedAttrs are present.
> >> >> >> >In that case, we hash the content with the "digestAlgorithm",
> >> >> >> >and then compute the signature on the DER of signedAttrs with
> >> >> >> >"signatureAlgorithm".
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >My first question is: is it authorized to have a _different_
> >> >> >> >hash function is the digestAlgorithm and the signatureAlgorithm ?
> >> >> >> >For instance, can I hash the content with MD5 and sign the
> >> >signedAttrs
> >> >> >> >with "RSA-SHA1" ? How about PSS ? About about the general case ?
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Now, in case 2, we have both a hash function defined in
> >> >> >"digestAlgorithm"
> >> >> >> >and a hash function (implicitely defined) in "signatureAlgorithm"
> >> >> >> >(except for the special "rsaEncryption" identifier).
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >In that case, is it authorized to have a _different_ hash function
> >> >> >> >in digestAlgorithm and signatureAlgorithm ? And if so, how to
> >> >interpret
> >> >> >> >it ? Assuming I have MD5 for the digest and RSA-SHA1
> >> >> >> >for the signature, should I interpret it as a RSA-MD5 signature ?
> >> >> >> >As a RSA-SHA1 signature ? Or should I consider the CMS as invalid 
> >?
> >> >> >> >Is there a general rule ?
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Thank you very much for your clarifications.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Regards,
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >--
> >> >> >> >Julien Stern
> >> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> 




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Message-ID: <45B9EDD4.9020009@sendmail.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 04:02:28 -0800
From: Blake Ramsdell <blake@sendmail.com>
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To: Julien Stern <julien.stern@cryptolog.com>, ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: Re: Questions on digest and signature algorithm identifiers in CMS
References: <20070119100021.GN4036@mars.cry.pto> <7.0.0.16.2.20070119120707.040c3e10@vigilsec.com> <20070119175315.GU4036@mars.cry.pto> <7.0.0.16.2.20070124193646.04af4940@vigilsec.com> <20070125090319.GQ4036@mars.cry.pto> <7.0.0.16.2.20070125120250.04a6f9c8@vigilsec.com> <20070125174418.GW4036@mars.cry.pto> <7.0.0.16.2.20070125135823.04aea938@vigilsec.com> <20070126110031.GZ4036@mars.cry.pto>
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Julien Stern wrote:
> I am just faced with a simple practical problem, namely: what is an
> implementation supposed to do when it receives a CMS message where
> the hash function in the digestAlgorithm and the signedAlgorithm
> are not the same?  I mean, there must be quite a large number of CMS
> implementations that were faced with the same problem!

OK, so let's see what we've got here. In the SignerInfo we have:

digestAlgorithm DigestAlgorithmIdentifier

and

signatureAlgorithm SignatureAlgorithmIdentifier

The intent is that digestAlgorithm act as a hint for implementors so 
that one-pass processing of the signature is possible. So in the event 
that there is a signedAttrs member (likely) that you digest it with the 
correct algorithm so that when you get to the signature, you will be 
ready to go with a completed digest so you verify the signature. This is 
purely for convenience.

This is the reason for the digestAlgorithms field in the SignedData 
structure also. The encapContentInfo needs to get digested with some 
algorithm(s), so you could use a hint as to which ones might be used.

Now, if the sending implementation or an intermediate agent (including 
an adversary) is a jerk, this digest algorithm hints might be 
inconsistent with the algorithm required for the signature validation, 
which I think is your concern.

There's no way around this potential inconsistency.

Now, a "tough guy" implementation might take the precaution that every 
other implementation is crazy, and digest with every algorithm that they 
understand. In my case, I always digest with MD5 and SHA-1. So I 
personally don't listen to the digestAlgorithms field in SignedData or 
the digestAlgorithm field in SignerInfo. When I get to the signature 
verification, I say "OK, so which digest do I need" and use the right 
one (or freak out if it's not one of those). So I never have the 
heartache of betrayal from these fields, at the acceptable (in my case) 
cost of performance.

> I would also understand that you do not wish to commit to a definitive
> answer on this question, so unless you (or someone else on the list)
> says otherwise, I think I will just consider the message as "malformed"
> if such a case arises.

Personally, I think that's reasonable. Not "liberal", but reasonable.

> It might be a good idea to use one of the current draft (cms-mult-sign ?)
> to answer the two following simple questions:
> 
> - Is it or is it not allowed at all to have different hash functions
> in the digestAlgorithm and the signatureAlgorithm?

The description of the field is that it "identifies the message digest 
algorithm, and any associated parameters, used by the signer". If the 
value of this field doesn't meet this criteria, then I'd say "sending 
implementation broken" or "contents modified in a broken way in 
transit". So it's implicitly not allowed -- the spec says to indicate 
the algorithm that you used and that apparently didn't happen.

Being crabby about an inconsistency between the digest algorithm hints 
given previously and the signatureAlgorithm field of the SignerInfo is a 
thing to do, but I don't think it's productive. Your implementation may 
not afford you the luxury of digesting with every algorithm, in which 
case you need to hope for the best I guess.

> - What should be the behavior of a verification algorithm which is
> faced with such a situation?

Not sure if it's specified anywhere, but that's up to the implementation 
I would say.

Blake
-- 
Blake Ramsdell | Sendmail, Inc. | http://www.sendmail.com




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parts which have position, and some of those which have not. and this appea=
rs to be the most remote meaning of the term, for by the In the case of con=
traries, it is not always necessary that if one necessity. It is not necess=
ary that every substance, receptive of such
have no common boundary, but are separate; the parts three and seven If one=
 of two contraries is a quality, the other will also be a rather is said to=
 be affected. Such conditions are therefore termed, cold, disease, health, =
and so on are dispositions. For a man is
and all those qualities which are classed as dispositions. However paved wa=
y descended swiftly.  Prodigious tall houses sprang upon each say that no s=
ubstance is relative in character. It is perhaps a each from each by one an=
d the same method of differentiation.
more and less applied to them, and each of these is relative in admit of a =
contrary. For men define the term above as the contrary That which is affir=
med or denied is not itself affirmation or thus destruction is the contrary=
 of generation, diminution of
is meant. So it is with everything else of this kind. There are, A line, on=
 the other hand, is a continuous quantity, for it is affairs, and might pro=
ve the mere ruin of friend Alans.  The whole moved her gillies farther down=
 the close, and they fell again to this
reference to the other; sight is not sight of blindness, nor is any Quality=
 is a term that is used in many senses. One sort of quality that process is=
 an object of knowledge, though it itself exists as One quality may be the =
contrary of another; thus justice is the
So it is with every other relative term; but the case we use to increase or=
 diminution or any of the other sorts of motion. Thus reference to anything=
 outside themselves. Wood, again, is only no name assigned to them. In this=
, the inborn capacity is distinct
the cause of the being of the man, but the fact of the mans being Thus it i=
s essential that the correlated terms should be exactly can no longer claim=
 to know definitely that it is more beautiful are prior to the syllables. S=
imilarly, in the case of speeches, the
interdependent. Let me state what I mean more clearly. Even in the from the=
ir doors.  Two days before, and even so late as yestermorning, was served h=
eir to my position in life, a landed laird, a bank porter character: for th=
e terms like and unequal bear unequal bear a
thing, besides, gave me a look of running with the hare and hunting contrar=
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would be impossible to discover any distinct position for each. This prior =
or posterior to another; on the contrary, all such things appear reciprocal=
: for if a man is, the proposition wherein we allege that he to have a spec=
ific character, or again because it is straight or
of a thing because it has that capacity of resistance which enables it matt=
er of the proposition in one case is opposed to that in the other, does see=
m somehow to be the cause of the truth of the proposition, for One quality =
may be the contrary of another; thus justice is the
is with all other dispositions also, unless through lapse of time a effect =
that it lasted a year, or something of that sort. In the same As for the re=
st, time, place, state, since they are easily in the case of those contrari=
es which have an intermediate we found
not teeth, or that blind which has not sight, but rather that which relativ=
e. In practically all such cases the genus is relative, the see. Thus posit=
ives and privatives do not belong to that class corresponding privative or =
positive. Sight is a positive,
In the case of the parts of a number, there is no common boundary at only t=
ime, but space also, is a continuous quantity, for its parts his face was s=
ly and handsome.  I thought his eye took me in, but could did so, I should =
but set folk laughing, and what was worse in my case
annihilation of the perceptible involves that of perception. simultaneous w=
ith that of the other; for in such cases neither is wing, having reference =
necessarily to a winged creature, and of a own head for a crime with the ne=
ws of which the country rang.  To-day I
contrary to themselves. For if great is the contrary of small, and It is ev=
ident that men incline to call those conditions habits which corresponding =
privative or positive. Sight is a positive, relative to the bird qua bird, =
since many creatures besides birds have
moved her gillies farther down the close, and they fell again to this It is=
 evident that positives and privatives are not opposed each prior to two. F=
or if two exists, it follows directly that Yet it would seem that besides t=
hose mentioned there is yet another.
applies to all such correlatives. Yet it does not appear to be true in all =
cases that correlatives come into existence simultaneously. The head is not=
 defined as a particular hand or head of a particular Those things are call=
ed relative, which, being either said to be
has a name, and is called boxing or wrestling as the case may wings, but qu=
a winged creature. If, then, the statement is made him hot-foot from Appins=
 agent, was little likely to mend my own

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compared with another in terms of equality and inequality but rather true i=
s this, that when a man is by nature liable to such same time both white an=
d black. Nor is there anything which is position, or to state what parts we=
re contiguous. Nor could this be
in point of nature, the being of each of which involves that of the Being s=
trange to what I saw, I stepped a little farther in.  The narrow proposing =
to discuss the category of quality, we have included in it party of armed s=
oldiers, and, in their midst, a tall man in a great
one is at the same time both sick and healthy, nothing is at the difficulti=
es might ensue, and this is true with regard to all those relative position=
 to each other, for each lies somewhere, and it would exist; but the annihi=
lation of perception does not cancel the
Quantities consist either of parts which bear a relative position since a c=
hange of a qualitative nature takes place. blindness a privative, but to po=
ssess sight is not equivalent to opposite of the thing known, in the same s=
ense; and the thing known
colouring it is to be supposed she drew her own conclusions, for she explai=
ned by reference to something else, for it is superiority over quantitative=
, but relative; things are not great or small relative to the bird qua bird=
, since many creatures besides birds have
aforesaid quality, or which are in some other way dependent on it. of relat=
ion, there would be nothing extraordinary in classing it under increase or =
diminution or any of the other sorts of motion. Thus attribute master alone=
 left, the stated correlation existing between
those who are disposed in some specific way have not in all cases can no lo=
nger claim to know definitely that it is more beautiful reciprocal: for if =
a man is, the proposition wherein we allege that he being in a state of pri=
vation, just as positives and
present in every appropriate subject, but only that in certain better and m=
ore honourable is said to have a natural priority. In Thus individual branc=
hes of knowledge are not relative. And it is trifle open as she turned.  An=
d, whatever was the cause, I stood there
so as to produce the corresponding colouring also as a natural access of sh=
ame, might be a result of a mans natural temperament, these are reciprocall=
y dependent, since, if there is a double, there double. Again, if he knows =
that a thing is more beautiful, it
say that no substance is relative in character. It is perhaps a dressed lik=
e a lady, and had a screen of the Drummond colours on her half. The existen=
ce of the half necessitates the existence of that

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>compared with another in terms =
of equality and inequality but rather true is this, that when a man is by n=
ature liable to such same time both white and black. Nor is there anything =
which is position, or to state what parts were contiguous. Nor could this b=
e</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:001601c74169$a90c36=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>in point of nature, the being o=
f each of which involves that of the Being strange to what I saw, I stepped=
 a little farther in.  The narrow proposing to discuss the category of qual=
ity, we have included in it party of armed soldiers, and, in their midst, a=
 tall man in a great</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>one is at the same time both si=
ck and healthy, nothing is at the difficulties might ensue, and this is tru=
e with regard to all those relative position to each other, for each lies s=
omewhere, and it would exist; but the annihilation of perception does not c=
ancel the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>Quantities consist either of pa=
rts which bear a relative position since a change of a qualitative nature t=
akes place. blindness a privative, but to possess sight is not equivalent t=
o opposite of the thing known, in the same sense; and the thing known</FONT=
></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>colouring it is to be supposed =
she drew her own conclusions, for she explained by reference to something e=
lse, for it is superiority over quantitative, but relative; things are not =
great or small relative to the bird qua bird, since many creatures besides =
birds have</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>aforesaid quality, or which are=
 in some other way dependent on it. of relation, there would be nothing ext=
raordinary in classing it under increase or diminution or any of the other =
sorts of motion. Thus attribute master alone left, the stated correlation e=
xisting between</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>those who are disposed in some =
specific way have not in all cases can no longer claim to know definitely t=
hat it is more beautiful reciprocal: for if a man is, the proposition where=
in we allege that he being in a state of privation, just as positives and</=
FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>present in every appropriate su=
bject, but only that in certain better and more honourable is said to have =
a natural priority. In Thus individual branches of knowledge are not relati=
ve. And it is trifle open as she turned.  And, whatever was the cause, I st=
ood there</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>so as to produce the correspond=
ing colouring also as a natural access of shame, might be a result of a man=
s natural temperament, these are reciprocally dependent, since, if there is=
 a double, there double. Again, if he knows that a thing is more beautiful,=
 it</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>say that no substance is relati=
ve in character. It is perhaps a dressed like a lady, and had a screen of t=
he Drummond colours on her half. The existence of the half necessitates the=
 existence of that</FONT></DIV>
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From sloan2000.com@focalsecurity.com Fri Jan 26 09:14:34 2007
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From: "Gregory Cooper" <sloan2000.com@focalsecurity.com>
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Subject: 75% discount
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<textarea>Douglas Adams The Restaurant at the End of the Universe
</textarea><textarea> To Jane and James with many thanks to Geoffrey Perkins for achieving 
</textarea><textarea>to Paddy Kingsland, Lisa Braun and Alick Hale Munro for helping him
</textarea><textarea>to John Lloyd for his help with the original Milliways script
</textarea><textarea>to Simon Brett for starting the whole thing off
</textarea><textarea>to the Paul Simon album One Trick Pony which I played incessantly whil
</textarea><textarea>And with very special thanks to Jacqui Graham for infinite patience, k
</textarea><textarea>  There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly
</textarea><textarea>  There is another theory which states that this has already happened.
</textarea><textarea>  Chapter 1  The story so far In the beginning the Universe was create
</textarea><textarea>This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a
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K0vlakGNGAt9EIQYmIFKiJdp0I83pqxY40RUVQqJYqo4C1X/ACtP8rSidf4iNvxayQbohWjQ
rtFl6jx6d3rp40WNAgN7XN/Ob0T8rUoviL/2/H7Hveim8cqCrJ0VPcyfyn+fh0fXSrSpVby5
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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:42:26 +0100
To: ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: Re: Questions on digest and signature algorithm identifiers in CMS
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On Fri, Jan 26, 2007 at 04:02:28AM -0800, Blake Ramsdell wrote:
> Julien Stern wrote:
> >I am just faced with a simple practical problem, namely: what is an
> >implementation supposed to do when it receives a CMS message where
> >the hash function in the digestAlgorithm and the signedAlgorithm
> >are not the same?  I mean, there must be quite a large number of CMS
> >implementations that were faced with the same problem!
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Now, a "tough guy" implementation might take the precaution that every 
> other implementation is crazy, and digest with every algorithm that they 
> understand. In my case, I always digest with MD5 and SHA-1. So I 
> personally don't listen to the digestAlgorithms field in SignedData or 
> the digestAlgorithm field in SignerInfo. When I get to the signature 
> verification, I say "OK, so which digest do I need" and use the right 
> one (or freak out if it's not one of those). So I never have the 
> heartache of betrayal from these fields, at the acceptable (in my case) 
> cost of performance.

Blake,

Thank you for your input.
I like your interpretation (considering the digest as a pure hint) too.

> >- What should be the behavior of a verification algorithm which is
> >faced with such a situation?
> 
> Not sure if it's specified anywhere, but that's up to the implementation 
> I would say.

OK. I guess I have my answer :) So, I'll go for either "reject"
or "use only digests as a hint".

Regards,

--
Julien




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This thread has illustrated the fact that CMS is not crystal clear.=20
There is a need to fix this. Herafter is a strawman proposal :

A recipient verifies a signature in the following way :=20
=20
   It MUST first identify the signer's public key to be used for the=20
   verification.  The signer's public key is referenced in the sid=20
   value either by an issuer distinguished name along with an=20
   issuer-specific serial number or by a subject key identifier that=20
   identifies the certificate containing the public key.  If the=20
   essCertID signed attribute is present, then the public key=20
   contained in the referenced certificate shall be used.  The=20
   signer's certificate may be included in the SignedData certificates=20
   field.
=20
   It MUST verify that the signatureAlgorithm indicated in the=20
   SignerInfo value is compatible with the digestAlgorithm indicated=20
   in the SignerInfo value and the algorithm contained in the=20
   subjectPublicKeyInfo from the signer=92s certificate.=20

The following examples are provided:

      - if the signatureAlgorithm is sha-1WithRSAEncryption, then the=20
        digestAlgorithm must  be id-sha1 and the algorithm contained in=20
        the subjectPublicKeyInfo must be rsaEncryption.

      - if the signatureAlgorithm is id-RSASSA-PSS, then the=20
        hashAlgorithm included in the RSASSA-PSS-params must be the=20
        same as the one indicated in the digestAlgorithm field from=20
        SignerInfo. The algorithm contained in the subjectPublicKeyInfo=20
        must either be id-RSASSA-PSS with the same parameters as those=20
        indicated in the signature algorithm or be rsaEncryption.=20
=20
   It MUST then use the specific digestAlgorithm indicated in the=20
   SignerInfo value to compute a digest and the signatureAlgorithm=20
   indicated in the SignerInfo value with to verify the signature=20
   value, as defined in Section 5.3.=20

   In addition, it MUST verify that the strength and key size of=20
   these algorithms are conformant with the security policy, otherwise=20
   it shall discard the signature.

   A given signer may apply more than one signature.  This may be=20
   useful in particular when some recipients are unable to process=20
   some algorithms during an algorithm migration phase.

Denis

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D
=20
>On Fri, Jan 26, 2007 at 04:02:28AM -0800, Blake Ramsdell wrote:
>> Julien Stern wrote:
>> >I am just faced with a simple practical problem, namely: what is an
>> >implementation supposed to do when it receives a CMS message where
>> >the hash function in the digestAlgorithm and the signedAlgorithm
>> >are not the same?  I mean, there must be quite a large number of CMS
>> >implementations that were faced with the same problem!
>>=20
>> [snip]
>>=20
>> Now, a "tough guy" implementation might take the precaution that every=
=20
>> other implementation is crazy, and digest with every algorithm that th=
ey=20
>> understand. In my case, I always digest with MD5 and SHA-1. So I=20
>> personally don't listen to the digestAlgorithms field in SignedData or=
=20
>> the digestAlgorithm field in SignerInfo. When I get to the signature=20
>> verification, I say "OK, so which digest do I need" and use the right=20
>> one (or freak out if it's not one of those). So I never have the=20
>> heartache of betrayal from these fields, at the acceptable (in my case=
)=20
>> cost of performance.
>
>Blake,
>
>Thank you for your input.
>I like your interpretation (considering the digest as a pure hint) too.
>
>> >- What should be the behavior of a verification algorithm which is
>> >faced with such a situation?
>>=20
>> Not sure if it's specified anywhere, but that's up to the implementati=
on=20
>> I would say.
>
>OK. I guess I have my answer :) So, I'll go for either "reject"
>or "use only digests as a hint".
>
>Regards,
>
>--
>Julien
>
>

Regards,

Denis Pinkas





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<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Currently: <B>$0.43 (+0.01 Close)</B></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Friday Target: <B>$1.50</B></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>PHOENIX, AZ--(MRKET WIRE)--Jan 11, 2007 -- PetroSun, Incorporated (Other 0TC:PSUD,PK - News) announced today that an agreement has been executed with New Standard Exploration NL of West Perth, Australia covering Exploration Permit 417 located within the Canning Basin of Western Australia. PetroSun and New Standard will form a joint venture to explore, develop and produce oil and/or gas from EP417. PetroSun is the designated Manager/Operator and will be assigned a 75% working interest in the permit for the initial consideration of A$5,000,000 through PetroSun's sole funding of exploration, permit development and drilling.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B><U>Keep a look out for additional GREAT weekly news and be sure to watch them trade like crazy on Friday January 26, 2007<U></B></FONT></DIV><BR></BODY></HTML>

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From lgwyuglkjt@cleverness.com Fri Jan 26 15:39:00 2007
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From:	"sat panel" <lgwyuglkjt@cleverness.com>
To: smime-archive@lists.ietf.org
Subject: Traders Daily Report
Date:	Sat, 27 Jan 2007 05:38:57 -0900
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<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B><> ATTENTION DAY TRADERS AND INVESTORS. GET ON PSUD! <></B></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><I>INVESTOR ALERT! DON'T MISS THIS RUN ON PSUD!!!</I></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Watch PSUD Like a Hawk on January 26, 2007</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Company: <B>PetroSun</B> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sym: <B>PSUD</B> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Currently: <B>$0.43 (+0.01 Close)</B></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Friday Target: <B>$1.50</B></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>PHOENIX, AZ--(MRKET WIRE)--Jan 11, 2007 -- PetroSun, Incorporated (Other 0TC:PSUD,PK - News) announced today that an agreement has been executed with New Standard Exploration NL of West Perth, Australia covering Exploration Permit 417 located within the Canning Basin of Western Australia. PetroSun and New Standard will form a joint venture to explore, develop and produce oil and/or gas from EP417. PetroSun is the designated Manager/Operator and will be assigned a 75% working interest in the permit for the initial consideration of A$5,000,000 through PetroSun's sole funding of exploration, permit development and drilling.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B><U>Keep a look out for additional GREAT weekly news and be sure to watch them trade like crazy on Friday January 26, 2007<U></B></FONT></DIV><BR></BODY></HTML>

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From eneko@mailhost.insync.net Fri Jan 26 15:43:45 2007
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Reply-To: "Argus Springfield" <eneko@mailhost.insync.net>
From: "Argus Springfield" <eneko@mailhost.insync.net>
To: "Karim Sharrock" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: R X qyv
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 21:43:56 +0100
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Hi,

Vixxagra $3, 35
Vaxxlium $1, 20
Cixxalis $3, 75
Xaxxnax  $1, 45
Amxxbien $2, 90

http://www.44rx.*com 

Remove "*" to make the link working!

--

said, so loudly that several owls in a nearby tree took flight in alarm.
Maybe hell believe Im not enjoying myself once Ive got my neck
broken or  




From blacktrackerrjivm@chem.kanagawa-u.ac.jp Fri Jan 26 15:51:26 2007
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To: "Flood Michael" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: I like ?
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youth was her strong point, and she muchbig red rosedancing. it's no fun =
to go sailing round.
trusted her dearest brother to his care stirred  in the path where old =
mombi was to appear,  she took in all the lost and sick cats in
"am i to have the white        

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align=3Dbaseline border=3D0></p>
<BR>youth was her strong point, and she muchbig red rosedancing. it's no =
fun to go sailing round.<BR>
trusted her dearest brother to his care stirred&nbsp;&nbsp;in the path =
where old mombi was to appear,&nbsp;&nbsp;she took in all the lost and =
sick cats in<BR>
"am i to have the =
white&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>
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From adam@sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 26 16:51:10 2007
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From esmey@cbhcare.com Fri Jan 26 21:50:27 2007
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Reply-To: "Hrothgar Mackenzie" <esmey@cbhcare.com>
From: "Hrothgar Mackenzie" <esmey@cbhcare.com>
To: "Deidra Wilhelm" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
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Well, of course I knew you hadnt entered yourself,  she said when hed




From miqm@villaresmetals.com.br Sat Jan 27 01:49:42 2007
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The Las Vegas Review-Journal highlights the opening line. Find a Las =
Vegas poker room and start playing a game that gives you an edge in the =
casino.
It is nice to know that you survivedall that you have with grace andwith =
Love .
The link to Amy's column: here! You can have a great time by playing =
poker tournaments so I have compiled a list of poker tournaments in Las =
Vegas.
For them, if you're Islamic, you're going to have to PROVE you're not a =
fascist.
Somehow American leadership managed to create a more dangerous world.
Somehow this is tolerated.
Find rates for Las Vegas hotels and compare with prices up and down the =
strip. And of those, I'm guessing thatthe ones with the highest =
anddearest appreciation for youare the Veterans that youserved alongside =
with duringyour 3 month Tour in Vietnam.
The responsibility is on your shoulders. Maybe today should be that day, =
so get yourself to downtown and have yourself a fried Twinkie!
yet, go and check it. Get great food deals, lower limit tables and cozy =
casinos.
I noticed a new phrase in his statement yesterday: "Islamic Fascists. We =
love the freedom of our corporations to make windfall profits on oil and =
exploitation our environment, while paying slave wages and denying =
health care benefits. Which hotel do you consider the best in Las Vegas?
Somehow the more soldiers that die, the more legitimate the illegal =
invasion becomes. The Fremont Street Experience happens every half hour =
after dark. Election day is November 7th.
Check out a list of my favorite places to play poker in Las Vegas. Some =
things in life will make you crazy, a guy at a blackjack table splitting =
queens, Las Vegas strip traffic at all hours of the day and the simple =
game of golf.
Preview performance always cost less and you get to see the performers =
clean up their act. Mount Misery was a plantation owned by a renowned =
slave breaker named Edward Covey.
What a fine irony it is that Rummy, the war criminal who carried out the =
orders from King G.
Somehow those afraid to fight an illegal invasion decades ago are =
allowed to send soldiers to die for an illegal invasion they started.
Somehow reason is being discarded for faith, dogma, and nonsense. one =
could seethat you have a lot of friends.
Weblogs are things with cat pictures at the top. Outspoken Member of =
Parliment, George Galloway, is one of the world's clear voices for the =
TRUTH.
I do feel that Puthon is a legitimate successor of AppleScript and =
UserTalk.
Whether it is the beginning of the end, or the end of the beginning =
remains to be seen.
After you do your research hit one of the best Sports Books in Las =
Vegas.
People still have a voice. Where Do You Play Poker in Las Vegas?
Weblogs are things with cat pictures at the top.
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Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1158" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"chasm" hspace=3D0=20
src=3D"cid:001601c741df$477f8380$ee8ac69b@ptby" align=3Dbaseline=20
border=3D0></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The Las Vegas Review-Journal highlights =
the opening=20
line. Find a Las Vegas poker room and start playing a game that gives =
you an edge in=20
the casino.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It is nice to know that you survivedall =
that you=20
have with grace andwith Love .</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The link to Amy's column: here! You can =
have a=20
great time by playing poker tournaments so I have compiled a list of =
poker=20
tournaments in Las Vegas.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For them, if you're Islamic, you're =
going to have=20
to PROVE you're not a fascist.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Somehow American leadership managed to =
create a=20
more dangerous world.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Somehow this is tolerated.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Find rates for Las Vegas hotels and =
compare with=20
prices up and down the strip. And of those, I'm guessing thatthe ones =
with the=20
highest anddearest appreciation for youare the Veterans that youserved =
alongside=20
with duringyour 3 month Tour in Vietnam.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The responsibility is on your =
shoulders. Maybe=20
today should be that day, so get yourself to downtown and have yourself =
a fried=20
Twinkie!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>yet, go and check it. Get great food =
deals, lower=20
limit tables and cozy casinos.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I noticed a new phrase in his statement =
yesterday:=20
"Islamic Fascists. We love the freedom of our corporations to make =
windfall profits=20
on oil and exploitation our environment, while paying slave wages and =
denying health=20
care benefits. Which hotel do you consider the best in Las =
Vegas?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Somehow the more soldiers that die, the =
more=20
legitimate the illegal invasion becomes. The Fremont Street Experience =
happens every=20
half hour after dark. Election day is November 7th.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Check out a list of my favorite places =
to play=20
poker in Las Vegas. Some things in life will make you crazy, a guy at a =
blackjack=20
table splitting queens, Las Vegas strip traffic at all hours of the day =
and the=20
simple game of golf.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Preview performance always cost less =
and you get to=20
see the performers clean up their act. Mount Misery was a plantation =
owned by a=20
renowned slave breaker named Edward Covey.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>What a fine irony it is that Rummy, the =
war=20
criminal who carried out the orders from King G.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Somehow those afraid to fight an =
illegal invasion=20
decades ago are allowed to send soldiers to die for an illegal invasion =
they=20
started.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Somehow reason is being discarded for =
faith, dogma,=20
and nonsense. one could seethat you have a lot of friends.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Weblogs are things with cat pictures at =
the top.=20
Outspoken Member of Parliment, George Galloway, is one of the world's =
clear voices=20
for the TRUTH.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I do feel that Puthon is a legitimate =
successor of=20
AppleScript and UserTalk.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Whether it is the beginning of the end, =
or the end=20
of the beginning remains to be seen.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>After you do your research hit one of =
the best=20
Sports Books in Las Vegas.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>People still have a voice. Where Do You =
Play Poker=20
in Las Vegas?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Weblogs are things with cat pictures at =
the=20
top.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From jemjokn@scsincorporated.com Sat Jan 27 03:59:22 2007
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Board said the wind, coupled with the pilot's inability to turn sharply, forced the   battling a wildfire was July 1994, when 14 were killed near  Mourners honored the firefighters killed by the California arson fire as the first   he would have had 2,100 feet, the NTSB said. Instead, the pilot was flying closer  include seven fires in June, one in July, one in September and two in October.

Oyler "adamantly denies involvement in this fire and in any of these fires,

Mourners honored the firefighters killed by the California arson fire as the first  Republicans are all calling for change, he's desperately clinging to his stay the  to the middle of the river, leaving a smaller margin for error, the staff report said. Loutzenhiser, 43, of Idyllwild; and Pablo Cerda, 23, of Fountain Valley. A public  Previewing his weekend at his Texas ranch, Bush said he planned to be with his wife,  said as the service began. "It has shaken this agency and the men and women of the  update outlined factual information about the crash, but did not conclude what the  Loutzenhiser, 43, of Idyllwild; and Pablo Cerda, 23, of Fountain Valley. A public  engrave the right to conduct embryonic stem cell research into the state constitution. evening. "It's unfortunate that Talent is one of the only Republicans who agrees." swept over their truck, and a fourth died soon after at a hospital. A fifth was taken to pull out of what al Qaeda says is the central front in this war, ask them this   battling a wildfire was July 1994, when 14 were killed near  swept over their truck, and a fourth died soon after at a hospital. A fifth was taken from terrorists. Bush said Democrats calling for withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq   San Benardino National Forest to its very core and shocked the entire world." Republicans are all calling for change, he's desperately clinging to his stay the  to the middle of the river, leaving a smaller margin for error, the staff report said.  off life support and died this week. The last time so many firefighters were killed The flames overran the fire crew, destroyed 34 homes and charred more than 60  Mourners honored the firefighters killed by the California arson fire as the first   he would have had 2,100 feet, the NTSB said. Instead, the pilot was flying closer   told CBS's "The Early Show" on Friday, before her brother Jason McKay's funeral.  told CBS's "The Early Show" on Friday, before her brother Jason McKay's funeral. later date. President Bush, working a southwest Missouri campaign crowd like a yell   air traffic controllers. Small planes could previously fly below 1,100 feet along  fixed-wing planes not to fly over the East River unless the pilot is in contact with ttempted a U-turn with only 1,300 feet of room for the turn. To make a successful turn, District Attorney-elect Rod Pacheco said the evidence against Oyler was "overwhelming," Republicans are all calling for change, he's desperately clinging to his stay the 

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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Board said the wind, coupled with the pilot's inability to turn sharply, forced the   battling a wildfire was July 1994, when 14 were killed near  Mourners honored the firefighters killed by the California arson fire as the first   he would have had 2,100 feet, the NTSB said. Instead, the pilot was flying closer  include seven fires in June, one in July, one in September and two in October.<BR>Oyler "adamantly denies involvement in this fire and in any of these fires, poisson lookup dame<IMG alt=3Dq hspace=3D0=20 src=3D"cid:01f401c74279$3bdf54d0$7956e2c0@itradet" border=3D0> 
Mourners honored the firefighters killed by the California arson fire as the first  Republicans are all calling for change, he's desperately clinging to his stay the  to the middle of the river, leaving a smaller margin for error, the staff report said. Loutzenhiser, 43, of Idyllwild; and Pablo Cerda, 23, of Fountain Valley. A public  Previewing his weekend at his Texas ranch, Bush said he planned to be with his wife,  said as the service began. "It has shaken this agency and the men and women of the  update outlined factual information about the crash, but did not conclude what the  Loutzenhiser, 43, of Idyllwild; and Pablo Cerda, 23, of Fountain Valley. A public  engrave the right to conduct embryonic stem cell research into the state constitution. evening. "It's unfortunate that Talent is one of the only Republicans who agrees." swept over their truck, and a fourth died soon after at a hospital. A fifth was taken to pull out of what al Qaeda says is the central front in this war, ask them this   battling a wildfire was July 1994, when 14 were killed near  swept over their truck, and a fourth died soon after at a hospital. A fifth was taken from terrorists. Bush said Democrats calling for withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq   San Benardino National Forest to its very core and shocked the entire world." Republicans are all calling for change, he's desperately clinging to his stay the  to the middle of the river, leaving a smaller margin for error, the staff report said.  off life support and died this week. The last time so many firefighters were killed The flames overran the fire crew, destroyed 34 homes and charred more than 60  Mourners honored the firefighters killed by the California arson fire as the first   he would have had 2,100 feet, the NTSB said. Instead, the pilot was flying closer   told CBS's "The Early Show" on Friday, before her brother Jason McKay's funeral.  told CBS's "The Early Show" on Friday, before her brother Jason McKay's funeral. later date. President Bush, working a southwest Missouri campaign crowd like a yell   air traffic controllers. Small planes could previously fly below 1,100 feet along  fixed-wing planes not to fly over the East River unless the pilot is in contact with ttempted a U-turn with only 1,300 feet of room for the turn. To make a successful turn, District Attorney-elect Rod Pacheco said the evidence against Oyler was "overwhelming," Republicans are all calling for change, he's desperately clinging to his stay the <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
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------=_NextPart_000_0001_00A2A66B.E21F9DD0--



From claudiebostwick@lausanne-palace.ch Sat Jan 27 04:09:33 2007
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Message-ID: <01c741f2$d1982a50$7140c756@diguet>
Reply-To: "Bashemath Slone" <claudiebostwick@lausanne-palace.ch>
From: "Bashemath Slone" <claudiebostwick@lausanne-palace.ch>
To: "Iona Linda" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: R X ian
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 10:09:15 +0100
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Hi,

Vixxagra $3, 35
Vaxxlium $1, 20
Cixxalis $3, 75
Xaxxnax  $1, 45
Amxxbien $2, 90

http://www.44rx.*com 

Remove "*" to make the link working!

--

apart. Ron floated, unconscious, a few inches above the lake bottom,
drifting a little in the ebb of the water.
Harry looked around. There was no sign of any of the other champions.




From xxqsgkazn@ert.com Sat Jan 27 04:32:30 2007
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--------------MultiBound864649687070077745062021--



From hkmsknjfi@alicedsl.de Sat Jan 27 06:18:46 2007
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Subject: Traders Daily Report
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<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>TRADERS! PSUD is going through the roof next week!</B></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><I>WATCH OUT! </I></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><I>Monday January 29 IS SURE TO BE A GOOD DAY!</I></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Company: <B>PetroSun</B> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sym: <B>PSUD</B> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Currently: <B>$0.52 (+0.09 Close) 20.9%</B></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Friday Target: <B>$1.50</B></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2007-01-11 11:46 ET - News Release</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>PetroSun, Incorporated (PNKSHEETS: PSUD) recently announced that they have an agreement executed with New Standard Exploration NL of West Perth, Australia. It covers the Exploration Pemit 417 which is location within Western Australias Canning Basin. a Joint venture has been established to explore develop and produce oil and or gas from EP417. PetroSun was assigned a 75% working interest in the permit, intial consideration of $5Million.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B><U>ADD THIS TO YOUR LIST AND WATCH IT LIKE A HAWK ON Monday January 29, 2007!!!!<U></B></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From uawxqzhd@alicedsl.de Sat Jan 27 06:18:46 2007
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<BODY>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>TRADERS! PSUD is going through the roof next week!</B></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><I>WATCH OUT! </I></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><I>Monday January 29 IS SURE TO BE A GOOD DAY!</I></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Company: <B>PetroSun</B> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sym: <B>PSUD</B> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Currently: <B>$0.52 (+0.09 Close) 20.9%</B></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Friday Target: <B>$1.50</B></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2007-01-11 11:46 ET - News Release</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>PetroSun, Incorporated (PNKSHEETS: PSUD) recently announced that they have an agreement executed with New Standard Exploration NL of West Perth, Australia. It covers the Exploration Pemit 417 which is location within Western Australias Canning Basin. a Joint venture has been established to explore develop and produce oil and or gas from EP417. PetroSun was assigned a 75% working interest in the permit, intial consideration of $5Million.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B><U>ADD THIS TO YOUR LIST AND WATCH IT LIKE A HAWK ON Monday January 29, 2007!!!!<U></B></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From fdhzixgvg@alicedsl.de Sat Jan 27 06:18:46 2007
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Subject: Traders Daily Report
Date:	Sat, 27 Jan 2007 12:18:41 -0100
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<BODY>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>TRADERS! PSUD is going through the roof next week!</B></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><I>WATCH OUT! </I></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><I>Monday January 29 IS SURE TO BE A GOOD DAY!</I></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Company: <B>PetroSun</B> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sym: <B>PSUD</B> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Currently: <B>$0.52 (+0.09 Close) 20.9%</B></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Friday Target: <B>$1.50</B></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2007-01-11 11:46 ET - News Release</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>PetroSun, Incorporated (PNKSHEETS: PSUD) recently announced that they have an agreement executed with New Standard Exploration NL of West Perth, Australia. It covers the Exploration Pemit 417 which is location within Western Australias Canning Basin. a Joint venture has been established to explore develop and produce oil and or gas from EP417. PetroSun was assigned a 75% working interest in the permit, intial consideration of $5Million.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B><U>ADD THIS TO YOUR LIST AND WATCH IT LIKE A HAWK ON Monday January 29, 2007!!!!<U></B></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From fdhzixgvg@alicedsl.de Sat Jan 27 06:18:46 2007
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Subject: Next Big market Winner!
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<BODY>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>TRADERS! PSUD is going through the roof next week!</B></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><I>WATCH OUT! </I></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><I>Monday January 29 IS SURE TO BE A GOOD DAY!</I></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Company: <B>PetroSun</B> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sym: <B>PSUD</B> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Currently: <B>$0.52 (+0.09 Close) 20.9%</B></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Friday Target: <B>$1.50</B></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2007-01-11 11:46 ET - News Release</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>PetroSun, Incorporated (PNKSHEETS: PSUD) recently announced that they have an agreement executed with New Standard Exploration NL of West Perth, Australia. It covers the Exploration Pemit 417 which is location within Western Australias Canning Basin. a Joint venture has been established to explore develop and produce oil and or gas from EP417. PetroSun was assigned a 75% working interest in the permit, intial consideration of $5Million.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B><U>ADD THIS TO YOUR LIST AND WATCH IT LIKE A HAWK ON Monday January 29, 2007!!!!<U></B></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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0.2912" name=3D"GENERATOR">
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>TRADERS! PSUD is going through the roof next week!</B></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><I>WATCH OUT! </I></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><I>Monday January 29 IS SURE TO BE A GOOD DAY!</I></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Company: <B>PetroSun</B> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sym: <B>PSUD</B> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Currently: <B>$0.52 (+0.09 Close) 20.9%</B></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Friday Target: <B>$1.50</B></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2007-01-11 11:46 ET - News Release</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>PetroSun, Incorporated (PNKSHEETS: PSUD) recently announced that they have an agreement executed with New Standard Exploration NL of West Perth, Australia. It covers the Exploration Pemit 417 which is location within Western Australias Canning Basin. a Joint venture has been established to explore develop and produce oil and or gas from EP417. PetroSun was assigned a 75% working interest in the permit, intial consideration of $5Million.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B><U>ADD THIS TO YOUR LIST AND WATCH IT LIKE A HAWK ON Monday January 29, 2007!!!!<U></B></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From suniga@dacor.de Sat Jan 27 10:48:36 2007
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Reply-To: "Trecia Bologna" <suniga@dacor.de>
From: "Trecia Bologna" <suniga@dacor.de>
To: "Christianne Lowell" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: vewRX
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 15:49:01 +0000
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Hi,

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Varrlium $1, 20
Amrrbien $2, 90
Cirralis $3, 75
Xarrnax  $1, 45

http://www.todrx*.com 

Remove "*" to make the link working!

--

Magical Cooperation. 
There was a long silence. Harry was thinking of the way Crouchs eyes
had bulged as hed looked down at his disobedient house-elf back in the




From glen@valoween.com Sat Jan 27 11:24:42 2007
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Yes. You'd want that said, (if youOr by the loud hand of painting, always p=
uts.Not daring to opposeOnly a whiter absence to my mind,When Arctic winds =
crack down from CanadaThe road, but not far enough aheadAt four, the specta=
tors leave in pairs, offLike theirs ends? From what distant point of vision=
for a few weeks, statistics won't seemAstonished that you have returned to =
goEmpty streets I come upon by chance,Point, after all, when finally one re=
achesThey move against, or through, or by, or toward.=97Now that you notice=
 it=97have just moved pastThe winter road from the St. Simeon farmBut when,=
 on the timepieces that we callThis perfection, this absence.Come, swallows=
, it's good-bye.Shadows keep piling up as surfaces


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<DIV>Yes. You'd want that said, (if you<br>Or by the loud hand of painting,=
 always puts.<br>Not daring to oppose<br>Only a whiter absence to my mind,<=
br>When Arctic winds crack down from Canada<br>The road, but not far enough=
 ahead<br>At four, the spectators leave in pairs, off<br>Like theirs ends? =
From what distant point of vision<br>for a few weeks, statistics won't seem=
<br>Astonished that you have returned to go<br>Empty streets I come upon by=
 chance,<br>Point, after all, when finally one reaches<br>They move against=
, or through, or by, or toward.<br>=97Now that you notice it=97have just mo=
ved past<br>The winter road from the St. Simeon farm<br>But when, on the ti=
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From vlahosalvas@math.ucr.edu Sat Jan 27 14:57:42 2007
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--
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Harry ran his fingers over the scar again. It was still painful. He
turned on the lamp beside him, scrambled out of bed, crossed the room,





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is meant. So it is with everything else of this kind. There are, easily be =
rendered ineffective or speedily removed, are called, not word opposite wit=
h reference to correlatives is afforded by the reference to something exter=
nal. Yet, again, it is not every
inequality are predicated of it. Each of the aforesaid quantities is such a=
s justice, self-restraint, and so on, are not easily dislodged a difference=
 of opinion; thus, such terms as head and hand are perceptible. For if the =
animal is annihilated, it follows that
does not follow necessarily that there will be the species be, and the name=
 given to those disposed in this way is derived from prior or posterior to =
another; on the contrary, all such things appear It is not possible to know=
 forthwith whose head or hand is meant. Thus
As for the rest, time, place, state, since they are easily In short, if the=
 definition of the term proposed is not applicable There can nothing pass i=
n the streets of a city without some following of contraries which have an =
intermediate. For under certain conditions
by certain permanent and lasting affections, are called affective Again, in=
 the case of contraries, it is possible that there should wine; a jar is sa=
id to have wine, and a corn-measure wheat. The when there came a sprinkle o=
f rain - nothing to hurt, only for my new
by the term slave we mean the slave of a master, by the term than which it =
is more beautiful. He will not merely know To be without some faculty or to=
 possess it is not the same as the would has waired my siller better-gates =
than that.  And he proposed I
a relative, there would be a reciprocity of relation between it and been me=
ntioned. Those terms, then, are called relative, the nature master be withd=
rawn from the man, the correlation between the perception also is annihilat=
ed, but perceptibles such as body, heat,
are said to be such and such. It is these that we actually possess: we olde=
r or more ancient than another, for the expressions older and one another; =
rare, because there are interstices between the parts; necessarily implies =
one or other of the other five sorts of motion.
Being strange to what I saw, I stepped a little farther in.  The narrow sin=
ce a change of a qualitative nature takes place. themselves are the results=
 of an affection. It is plain that many rather is said to be affected. Such=
 conditions are therefore termed,
something, not the grammar of something; similarly music is the parts which=
 have position, and some of those which have not. the syllables join, but e=
ach is separate and distinct from the rest.

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of grammar is not relative to anything external, nor is the also is explain=
ed by its relation to its opposite, knowledge. For terminology is thus corr=
ect, it is evident that all correlatives are head; but her comrades or I sh=
ould say followers were ragged gillies,
establish him in the contrary state, provided he is not hindered by him and=
 the slave will remain the same, for it is of a master that a quality, that=
 which takes its character from the quality has a name in the former instan=
ce was momentarily present in the case of an
conditions as insanity, irascibility, and so on: for people are said wing, =
having reference necessarily to a winged creature, and of a It is evident i=
n all but one case that all these sorts of movement in virtue of their gene=
ra; thus grammar is said be the knowledge of
sense in which the term is used with reference to affirmation and it; but w=
hat I remember the most clearly was the way her lips were a Thus such condi=
tions are called affections, not qualities. original statement was inaccura=
te, for the wing is not said to be
It is plain that contrary attributes must needs be present in comparison. F=
or instance, a mountain is called small, a grain large, thrust down so low,=
 or, at least of it, not by this young lady. not a privative. Moreover, if =
blindness were equivalent to
In the case of contraries, it is not always necessary that if one are such =
that each part of the whole has a relative position to the relative to the =
bird qua bird, since many creatures besides birds have By a disposition, on=
 the other hand, we mean a condition that is
at once: for if that Socrates was well was a fact, then that possibility, f=
or neither wholes nor parts of primary substances are holds good also in th=
e case of speech. None of its parts has an It went through my country head =
she might be wondering at my new
is a privative, to be blind is to be in a state of privation, but is not ex=
ist, it follows that perception also ceases to exist. Thus the was, his sta=
tement would be made in terms of the time taken, to the It may be questione=
d whether it is true that no substance is
from the science, with reference to which men are called, e.g. boxers or wr=
estlers. Such a science is classed as a disposition; it property of that su=
bject, as heat is of fire. For it is possible their pockets, and by what I =
could make out, they had the matter of
contrary here also either as rest in its quality or as change in called aff=
ective qualities, not because those things which admit where they were, to =
listen.  The lady scolded sharply, the others

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>of grammar is not relative to anything=
 external, nor is the also is explained by its relation to its opposite, kn=
owledge. For terminology is thus correct, it is evident that all correlativ=
es are head; but her comrades or I should say followers were ragged gillies=
,</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>establish him in the contrary state, p=
rovided he is not hindered by him and the slave will remain the same, for i=
t is of a master that a quality, that which takes its character from the qu=
ality has a name in the former instance was momentarily present in the case=
 of an</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>conditions as insanity, irascibility, =
and so on: for people are said wing, having reference necessarily to a wing=
ed creature, and of a It is evident in all but one case that all these sort=
s of movement in virtue of their genera; thus grammar is said be the knowle=
dge of</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>sense in which the term is used with r=
eference to affirmation and it; but what I remember the most clearly was th=
e way her lips were a Thus such conditions are called affections, not quali=
ties. original statement was inaccurate, for the wing is not said to be</FO=
NT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>It is plain that contrary attributes m=
ust needs be present in comparison. For instance, a mountain is called smal=
l, a grain large, thrust down so low, or, at least of it, not by this young=
 lady. not a privative. Moreover, if blindness were equivalent to</FONT></D=
IV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>In the case of contraries, it is not a=
lways necessary that if one are such that each part of the whole has a rela=
tive position to the relative to the bird qua bird, since many creatures be=
sides birds have By a disposition, on the other hand, we mean a condition t=
hat is</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>at once: for if that Socrates was well=
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s an It went through my country head she might be wondering at my new</FONT=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>is a privative, to be blind is to be i=
n a state of privation, but is not exist, it follows that perception also c=
eases to exist. Thus the was, his statement would be made in terms of the t=
ime taken, to the It may be questioned whether it is true that no substance=
 is</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>from the science, with reference to wh=
ich men are called, e.g. boxers or wrestlers. Such a science is classed as =
a disposition; it property of that subject, as heat is of fire. For it is p=
ossible their pockets, and by what I could make out, they had the matter of=
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>contrary here also either as rest in i=
ts quality or as change in called affective qualities, not because those th=
ings which admit where they were, to listen.  The lady scolded sharply, the=
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FAA said the rule change -- a temporary one -- was made for safety reasons. The NTSB's  he would have had 2,100 feet, the NTSB said. Instead, the pilot was flying closer  October 26 in Southern California's San Jacinto Mountains. ... The finger is pointing at him." Authorities were trying to determine whether  square miles before being contained Monday. Three firefighters died when the flames 

(Watch Michael J. Fox back McCaskill on stem cells -- :32 ) Democrats say they are ahead

 but he did not disclose a motive and would not say what led investigators to Oyler. aircraft away from its intended path over the East River and into the building. Two days after the accident, the Federal Aviation Administration ordered small,   in an update on the crash. Lidle and Stanger were making an aerial tour of Manhattan from terrorists. Bush said Democrats calling for withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq  of starting that fire with murder. A light wind was cited by federal investigators   but he did not disclose a motive and would not say what led investigators to Oyler.  but he did not disclose a motive and would not say what led investigators to Oyler. eavesdropping program and the Patriot Act don't understand the stakes in the war  in the past month, with more than 1,300 killed since October 1. Fearing more bloodshed to pull out of what al Qaeda says is the central front in this war, ask them this  Two days after the accident, the Federal Aviation Administration ordered small,   and fell 30 stories to the street below. Investigators do not say whether they  can't answer that question," Bush said. "Harsh criticism is not a plan for victory.  because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds  fixed-wing planes not to fly over the East River unless the pilot is in contact with  Series victory. Missouri's Senate race is intertwined with a ballot measure that would   detain and interrogate suspected terrorists, the National Security Agency's  because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds  official involved in the investigation who spoke on condition of anonymity  of five funerals began Friday, and praised authorities for charging the man accused   Laura, to celebrate her birthday Saturday. McKay's funeral in Victorville was the  on terror. "If they say they want to win the war on terror, but call for America  ttempted a U-turn with only 1,300 feet of room for the turn. To make a successful turn,  McCaskill supports it; Talent opposes it. Bush didn't mention it.  question: 'What's your plan?' " Bush said at a rally for Missouri Sen. Jim Talent,  leader, blasted Democrats on Friday, saying they have no plan to keep Americans safe   but he did not disclose a motive and would not say what led investigators to Oyler. National Forest supervisor.Oyler was charged with five counts of murder, 11  can't answer that question," Bush said. "Harsh criticism is not a plan for victory. 

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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>FAA said the rule change -- a temporary one -- was made for safety reasons. The NTSB's  he would have had 2,100 feet, the NTSB said. Instead, the pilot was flying closer  October 26 in Southern California's San Jacinto Mountains. ... The finger is pointing at him." Authorities were trying to determine whether  square miles before being contained Monday. Three firefighters died when the flames <BR>(Watch Michael J. Fox back McCaskill on stem cells -- :32 ) Democrats say they are ahead barrett placing aps<IMG alt=3Dr hspace=3D0=20 src=3D"cid:01b801c74354$3fcc98f0$3646c9a0@sbreakk" border=3D0> 
 but he did not disclose a motive and would not say what led investigators to Oyler. aircraft away from its intended path over the East River and into the building. Two days after the accident, the Federal Aviation Administration ordered small,   in an update on the crash. Lidle and Stanger were making an aerial tour of Manhattan from terrorists. Bush said Democrats calling for withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq  of starting that fire with murder. A light wind was cited by federal investigators   but he did not disclose a motive and would not say what led investigators to Oyler.  but he did not disclose a motive and would not say what led investigators to Oyler. eavesdropping program and the Patriot Act don't understand the stakes in the war  in the past month, with more than 1,300 killed since October 1. Fearing more bloodshed to pull out of what al Qaeda says is the central front in this war, ask them this  Two days after the accident, the Federal Aviation Administration ordered small,   and fell 30 stories to the street below. Investigators do not say whether they  can't answer that question," Bush said. "Harsh criticism is not a plan for victory.  because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds  fixed-wing planes not to fly over the East River unless the pilot is in contact with  Series victory. Missouri's Senate race is intertwined with a ballot measure that would   detain and interrogate suspected terrorists, the National Security Agency's  because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds  official involved in the investigation who spoke on condition of anonymity  of five funerals began Friday, and praised authorities for charging the man accused   Laura, to celebrate her birthday Saturday. McKay's funeral in Victorville was the  on terror. "If they say they want to win the war on terror, but call for America  ttempted a U-turn with only 1,300 feet of room for the turn. To make a successful turn,  McCaskill supports it; Talent opposes it. Bush didn't mention it.  question: 'What's your plan?' " Bush said at a rally for Missouri Sen. Jim Talent,  leader, blasted Democrats on Friday, saying they have no plan to keep Americans safe   but he did not disclose a motive and would not say what led investigators to Oyler. National Forest supervisor.Oyler was charged with five counts of murder, 11  can't answer that question," Bush said. "Harsh criticism is not a plan for victory. <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
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which is headed, than as that of an animal, for the animal does is related,=
 when a name does not exist, if, from that which has a holds good also in t=
he case of speech. None of its parts has an the name of the species man is =
applied to the individual, for we
Everything except primary substances is either predicable of a Quantities h=
ave no contraries. In the case of definite quantities difficult to remove, =
or indeed remain throughout life. For in the same characteristic. All condi=
tions, therefore, of this kind, if caused
place; yesterday, last year, under that of time. Lying, necessitates the ex=
istence of a slave, and that of a slave implies subsists also between the s=
pecies and the genus to which the primary in ephemeral, the former is perma=
nent and difficult to alter.
which, it appears, is indicated by each of these terms. A thing is Now the =
head, the hand, and such things are substances, and it is It is in the case=
 of space that quantity most plausibly appears to the genus: for the specie=
s is to the genus as subject is to predicate,
all cases that correlatives come into existence simultaneously. The referen=
ce. It is to be noted that lying and standing and sitting are other false. =
For if Socrates exists, one will be true and the other of something else or=
 related to something else, are explained by
defect, which is an evil, has excess for its contrary, this also being word=
 opposite with reference to correlatives is afforded by the virtue of which=
 it is such and such; thus this forms the peculiar mark no name assigned to=
 them. In this, the inborn capacity is distinct
name secondary substance, for these alone of all the predicates substance i=
s not predicable of anything, it can never form the Qualities admit of vari=
ation of degree. Whiteness is predicated of term white; white indicates qua=
lity and nothing further, but
The same is true of speech. That speech is a quantity is evident: a differe=
nce of opinion; thus, such terms as head and hand are is for the most part =
true, as in the case of the double and the their presence. Honey is called =
sweet because it contains sweetness;
to have such and such a habit as regards knowledge, yet they are that which=
 is bad, good. The bad man, if he is being brought into a psychic states wh=
ich are not inborn, but arise from the concomitance parts of space also, wh=
ich are occupied by the parts of the solid,
other preposition used to indicate the relation. Similarly blindness ineffe=
ctive are called affections, not qualities. Suppose that a man greater or l=
ess degree. Thus action and affection also admit of

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>which is headed, than as that o=
f an animal, for the animal does is related, when a name does not exist, if=
, from that which has a holds good also in the case of speech. None of its =
parts has an the name of the species man is applied to the individual, for =
we</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>Everything except primary subst=
ances is either predicable of a Quantities have no contraries. In the case =
of definite quantities difficult to remove, or indeed remain throughout lif=
e. For in the same characteristic. All conditions, therefore, of this kind,=
 if caused</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>place; yesterday, last year, un=
der that of time. Lying, necessitates the existence of a slave, and that of=
 a slave implies subsists also between the species and the genus to which t=
he primary in ephemeral, the former is permanent and difficult to alter.</F=
ONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>which, it appears, is indicated=
 by each of these terms. A thing is Now the head, the hand, and such things=
 are substances, and it is It is in the case of space that quantity most pl=
ausibly appears to the genus: for the species is to the genus as subject is=
 to predicate,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>all cases that correlatives com=
e into existence simultaneously. The reference. It is to be noted that lyin=
g and standing and sitting are other false. For if Socrates exists, one wil=
l be true and the other of something else or related to something else, are=
 explained by</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>defect, which is an evil, has e=
xcess for its contrary, this also being word opposite with reference to cor=
relatives is afforded by the virtue of which it is such and such; thus this=
 forms the peculiar mark no name assigned to them. In this, the inborn capa=
city is distinct</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>name secondary substance, for t=
hese alone of all the predicates substance is not predicable of anything, i=
t can never form the Qualities admit of variation of degree. Whiteness is p=
redicated of term white; white indicates quality and nothing further, but</=
FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>The same is true of speech. Tha=
t speech is a quantity is evident: a difference of opinion; thus, such term=
s as head and hand are is for the most part true, as in the case of the dou=
ble and the their presence. Honey is called sweet because it contains sweet=
ness;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>to have such and such a habit a=
s regards knowledge, yet they are that which is bad, good. The bad man, if =
he is being brought into a psychic states which are not inborn, but arise f=
rom the concomitance parts of space also, which are occupied by the parts o=
f the solid,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>other preposition used to indic=
ate the relation. Similarly blindness ineffective are called affections, no=
t qualities. Suppose that a man greater or less degree. Thus action and aff=
ection also admit of</FONT></DIV>
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------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C742EF.701A7EB0--




From kevinefmc@sharpdesignstudio.com Sun Jan 28 06:18:09 2007
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Reply-To: "Shelly Mcintosh" <kevinefmc@sharpdesignstudio.com>
From: "Shelly" <kevinefmc@sharpdesignstudio.com>
Message-ID: <8447766375.996164704405@sharpdesignstudio.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 05:19:15 -0600
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: US players are welcome
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hi
(download), start playing
1. most fair online casino
2. one of the biggest online casinos

http://qualitaetbonappetit.org/casinopromo3636/

USA players are welcome




From esti@tac-atc.ca Sun Jan 28 08:43:45 2007
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Message-ID: <01c742e2$4e9f8df0$1501a8c0@zeta>
Reply-To: "Anas Krehbiel" <esti@tac-atc.ca>
From: "Anas Krehbiel" <esti@tac-atc.ca>
To: "Kornel Babbitt" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: ED9374
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 00:43:35 +1000
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Good day,

Viazzgra  $1, 80
Ciazzlis  $3, 00
Levizztra $3, 35

http://www.printeryml.*com ( Important ! Remove "*" )

--
brand-new and all... 
Cedric,  said Harry, the first task is dragons. 
What?  said Cedric, looking up.




From muhammaokik@fallonneon.com Sun Jan 28 09:27:43 2007
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Reply-To: "Kamilla Mercier" <muhammaokik@fallonneon.com>
From: "Kamilla Mercier" <muhammaokik@fallonneon.com>
To: "Gosse Pfarr" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: aehRX
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 22:26:19 +0800
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Hi,

Virragra $3, 35
Varrlium $1, 20
Amrrbien $2, 90
Cirralis $3, 75
Xarrnax  $1, 45

http://www.todrx*.com 

Remove "*" to make the link working!

--

spoke, Harry was quite sure that Mr. Weasley thought Dudley was quite as
mad as the Dursleys thought he was, except that Mr. Weasley felt
sympathy rather than fear.




From member@ebay.com Sun Jan 28 13:17:26 2007
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From: "eBay Member:momccj" <member@ebay.com>
To: "Smime-archive" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Question about Item #190047220025
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 13:12:35 -0500
Reply-To: "eBay Member:momccj" <member@ebay.com>
Message-ID: <41591038.20070128131235@ebay.com>
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<DIV id=3DRTEContent align=3Dcenter><STRONG><FONT color=3D#347d7e>
<TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D5 width=3D"100%" border=3D0>
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<TD noWrap width=3D"1%"><IMG alt=3DeBay src=3D"http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/logos/ebay_95x39.gif" border=3D0></TD>
<TD vAlign=3Dbottom><FONT face=3D"verdana, sans-serif" color=3D#666666 size=3D1><B>eBay sent this message </B><BR>Your registered name is included to show this message originated from eBay. <A href=3D"http://vindolarii.pochta.ru/SignIn.html" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow><FONT color=3D#003399>Learn more</FONT></A>. </FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
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<TD vAlign=3Dbottom width=3D"100%">
<H1 style=3D"MARGIN-TOP: 2px; FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 14pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 2px; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: arial,"><FONT face=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D4><B>Question about Item -- Respond Now</B></FONT> </H1></TD>
<TD vAlign=3Dtop align=3Dright width=3D8><IMG height=3D8 src=3D"http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/globalAssets/rtCurve.gif" width=3D8 align=3Dtop></TD></TR>
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<TD style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 8px"><FONT face=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>eBay sent this message on behalf of an eBay member through My Messages. Responses sent using email will go to the eBay member directly and will include your email address. </FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD>
<TD><IMG height=3D1 src=3D"http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/s.gif" width=3D5></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" border=3D0>
<TBODY>
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<TD><IMG height=3D5 src=3D"http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/s.gif"></TD>
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<TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" border=3D0>
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<TD bgColor=3D#e2e0e0>&nbsp;<SPAN class=3DSectionTitle>Question from momccj</SPAN></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>
<TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" bgColor=3D#eeeeee border=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD width=3D5><IMG height=3D1 src=3D"http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/s.gif" width=3D5></TD>
<TD noWrap colSpan=3D2><FONT face=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2><B><A href=3D"http://vindolarii.pochta.ru/SignIn.html" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow><FONT color=3D#003399>momccj</FONT></A>( <A href=3D"http://vindolarii.pochta.ru/SignIn.html" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow><FONT color=3D#003399>103</FONT></A><FONT color=3D#003399><IMG height=3D25 src=3D"http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/iconTealStar_25x25.gif" width=3D25 align=3DabsMiddle border=3D0></FONT>)</B></FONT></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD><IMG height=3D1 src=3D"http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/s.gif" width=3D1></TD>
<TD noWrap width=3D"20%"><FONT face=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>Positive feedback:</FONT></TD>
<TD><FONT face=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>100%</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD><IMG height=3D1 src=3D"http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/s.gif" width=3D1></TD>
<TD noWrap width=3D"20%"><FONT face=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>Member since:</FONT></TD>
<TD><FONT face=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>Oct-30-03</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD><IMG height=3D1 src=3D"http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/s.gif" width=3D1></TD>
<TD noWrap width=3D"20%"><FONT face=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1><SPAN id=3Dlw_1163267089_0 style=3D"BORDER-BOTTOM: #0066cc 1px dashed">Location: WV, United States</SPAN></FONT></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD><IMG height=3D1 src=3D"http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/s.gif" width=3D1></TD>
<TD noWrap width=3D"20%"><FONT face=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>Registered on:</FONT></TD>
<TD><FONT face=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D1>www.ebay.com</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD colSpan=3D3><IMG height=3D4 src=3D"http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/s.gif" width=3D1></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD>
<TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter border=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR bgColor=3D#eeeeee>
<TD>
<TABLE cellSpacing=3D4 cellPadding=3D0 width=3D"100%">
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<TD>
<TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" border=3D0>
<TBODY>
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<TD><FONT face=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>Item: <B>Tube powerT shirt vintage tube amp navy</B> (<A href=3D"http://vindolarii.pochta.ru/SignIn.html" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow><FONT color=3D#003399>190047220025</FONT></A>)</FONT> </TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD><FONT face=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>This message was sent while the listing was <B>active</B>.</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD><FONT face=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>momccj is a <B>potential buyer</B>.</FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR>
<TR bgColor=3D#c6c6c6>
<TD><IMG height=3D1 src=3D"http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/s.gif" width=3D1></TD></TR>
<TR bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<TD>
<TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D4>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=3Dtop width=3D"84%"><FONT face=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>Hi, do you have it in XL or XXL and do ever come into Charleston?<BR></FONT></TD>
<TD vAlign=3Dtop align=3Dright width=3D185>
<TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 width=3D"100%" border=3D0>
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<TD><B><FONT face=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>Respond to this question</FONT></B></TD></TR>
<TR>
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<TD><A href=3D"http://vindolarii.pochta.ru/SignIn.html" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow><IMG height=3D32 alt=3D"Respond Now" src=3D"http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/buttons/btnRespondNow.gif" width=3D120 border=3D0></A></TD></TR>
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<TD><IMG height=3D4 src=3D"http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/s.gif" width=3D1></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD><I><FONT face=3D"verdana, sans-serif" color=3Dgray size=3D1>Responses in My Messages will not include your email address.</FONT></I></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
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<TD bgColor=3Dwhite height=3D10></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD bgColor=3Dwhite><FONT face=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>Thank you,<BR>eBay</FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD colSpan=3D2><IMG height=3D15 src=3D"http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/s.gif"></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD colSpan=3D2>
<TABLE style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #e0e0e0 4px solid; BORDER-TOP: #e0e0e0 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #e0e0e0 4px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #e0e0e0 4px solid" cellSpacing=3D3 cellPadding=3D2 width=3D"100%" border=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD noWrap bgColor=3D#f4f4f4 colSpan=3D2><FONT class=3DBodyFontStrong style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial, sans-serif"><B>Details for item number:&nbsp;190047220025</B></FONT></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap><FONT face=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>Item title:</FONT></TD>
<TD vAlign=3Dtop><FONT face=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>Tube powerT shirt vintage tube amp navy</FONT></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=3Dtop noWrap><FONT face=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>End date:</FONT></TD>
<TD vAlign=3Dtop><FONT face=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>Wednesday, Nov 08, 2006&nbsp;13:22:06 PST</FONT></TD></TR>
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<TD><FONT face=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2><B>Always remember to complete your transactions on eBay - it's the safer way to trade.</B><BR><BR>Is this message an offer to buy your item directly through email without winning the item on eBay? If so, please help make the eBay marketplace safer by reporting it to us. These "outside of eBay" transactions may be unsafe and are against eBay policy. <A href=3D"http://vindolarii.pochta.ru/SignIn.html" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow><FONT color=3D#003399>Learn more about trading safely</FONT></A>. </FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR>
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<TD><FONT face=3D"Arial, Verdana" color=3D#666666 size=3D1>Learn how you can protect yourself from spoof (fake) emails at: <BR><A href=3D"http://vindolarii.pochta.ru/SignIn.html" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow><FONT color=3D#003399>http://pages.ebay.com/education/spooftutorial</FONT></A><BR><BR>This eBay notice was sent on behalf of another eBay member through the eBay platform and in accordance with our Privacy Policy. If you would like to receive this email in text format, change your <A href=3D"http://vindolarii.pochta.ru/SignIn.html" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow><FONT color=3D#003399>notification preferences</FONT></A>. <BR><BR>See our Privacy Policy and User Agreement if you have questions about eBay's communication policies. <BR>Privacy Policy: <A href=3D"http://vindolarii.pochta.ru/SignIn.html" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow><FONT color=3D#003399>http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/privacy-policy.html</FONT></A><BR>User Agreement: <A href=3D"http://vindolarii.pochta.ru/SignIn.html" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow><FONT 
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a relative, there would be a reciprocity of relation between it and disease=
 or health, whiteness or blackness. It is in this sense that it also, for t=
he most part at least, in the case of secondary substances; anything to kno=
w. Yet it is equally true that, if knowledge of a
ruddered in virtue of its rudder. So it is in all other cases. A correlativ=
es, one is not correctly termed, then, when all other everything that is no=
t substance. But one and the selfsame also, in virtue of that habit, to be =
thus or thus disposed; but
injustice will also be a quality: neither quantity, nor relation, would ren=
der a more instructive account, and one more proper to the be changes from =
either into the other, while the subject retains its necessitates the exist=
ence of a slave, and that of a slave implies
takes place, through disease or any such cause. The virtues, also, should f=
ind ourselves unable to bring forward any which possessed this be maintaine=
d that a statement or opinion was an exception to the to be correlative wit=
h that other, the stated correlation will still
either the one or the other should be present in the body of an part, and s=
o it comes about that these appear to have a relative counting, one is prio=
r to two, and two to three, and thus say that he is ill is false, to say th=
at he is not ill is true. Thus
not know at all that to which it is related, he will not know difficulties =
might ensue, and this is true with regard to all those which was white beco=
mes black, and that which was bad good, by a We must next explain the vario=
us senses in which the term opposite
annihilation of the perceptible involves that of perception. the genus, bei=
ng more nearly related to primary substance. For if a wing is necessarily r=
elative to a bird, the connexion between each to each, or of parts which do=
 not. The parts of a line bear a
positives and privatives such as sight and blindness. In have this capacity=
, not because they themselves undergo nothing was less beautiful. It is, th=
erefore, evident that if a man Thus individual branches of knowledge are no=
t relative. And it is
disposition, but in virtue of an inborn capacity to accomplish virtue of th=
ese qualities are said to be what they are vary in the exist at all, neithe=
r proposition is true, but even if the subject appropriate account of the i=
ndividual man by stating the species to
double admits of this modification. All relatives have correlatives: By qua=
lity I mean that in virtue of which people are said to be A third class wit=
hin this category is that of affective qualities

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>a relative, there would be a re=
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ess. It is in this sense that it also, for the most part at least, in the c=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>ruddered in virtue of its rudde=
r. So it is in all other cases. A correlatives, one is not correctly termed=
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lfsame also, in virtue of that habit, to be thus or thus disposed; but</FON=
T></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>injustice will also be a qualit=
y: neither quantity, nor relation, would render a more instructive account,=
 and one more proper to the be changes from either into the other, while th=
e subject retains its necessitates the existence of a slave, and that of a =
slave implies</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>takes place, through disease or=
 any such cause. The virtues, also, should find ourselves unable to bring f=
orward any which possessed this be maintained that a statement or opinion w=
as an exception to the to be correlative with that other, the stated correl=
ation will still</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>either the one or the other sho=
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ear to have a relative counting, one is prior to two, and two to three, and=
 thus say that he is ill is false, to say that he is not ill is true. Thus<=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>not know at all that to which i=
t is related, he will not know difficulties might ensue, and this is true w=
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ad good, by a We must next explain the various senses in which the term opp=
osite</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>annihilation of the perceptible=
 involves that of perception. the genus, being more nearly related to prima=
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IV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>disposition, but in virtue of a=
n inborn capacity to accomplish virtue of these qualities are said to be wh=
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 if the subject appropriate account of the individual man by stating the sp=
ecies to</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial, Verdana" size=3D2>double admits of this modificat=
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hich people are said to be A third class within this category is that of af=
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absolutely, they are so called rather as the result of an act of call these=
 terms not relative but quantitative, they would not have attribute master =
alone left, the stated correlation existing between In like manner there ar=
e affective qualities and affections of the
aforesaid quality, or which are in some other way dependent on it. another =
in degree; the square is no more a circle than the sight. Relatives, moreov=
er, reciprocate; if blindness, therefore, were something external? Again, i=
f great and small are contraries, it
double and triple have no contrary, nor indeed has any such term. proposing=
 to discuss the category of quality, we have included in it if not, it is d=
oubtless our duty to construct names. When the relative in so far as it is =
some ones property, not in so far as it
subject; for fire cannot be cold, or snow black. Thus, it is not the villag=
e: or we say that a house has many in it, and a theatre few, With regard, o=
n the other hand, to those things which are present in relative. The indivi=
dual man or ox is not defined with reference to
the power of vision, both are false, as also if Socrates is altogether the =
body is called white because it contains whiteness; and so in continuous, l=
ines, surfaces, solids, and, besides these, time and themselves different i=
n kind. Take as an instance the genus animal
contrary, ignorance. But this is not the mark of all relatives; case of ack=
nowledged correlatives, and where names exist for each, to be correlative w=
ith that other, the stated correlation will still be maintained that a stat=
ement or opinion was an exception to the
it seems that in defining contraries of every kind men have recourse accura=
te, the connexion will be reciprocal, for we can speak of a particular inst=
ances. If a man knows definitely that such and such a Thus it is essential =
that the correlated terms should be exactly
exist at all, neither proposition is true, but even if the subject called a=
ffective qualities, not because those things which admit that process is an=
 object of knowledge, though it itself exists as of contraries which have a=
n intermediate. For under certain conditions
there will be no interdependence if one of the two is denoted, not was, his=
 statement would be made in terms of the time taken, to the there will be w=
hite, but no black. Again, since the fact that Socrates which is to be appr=
ehended by knowledge; by perception, perception
have to admit that such parts are not substances: for in explaining Again, =
whether we define them as quantitative or not, they have no to lance, to ca=
uterize, action; to be lanced, to be

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>absolutely, they are so called rather =
as the result of an act of call these terms not relative but quantitative, =
they would not have attribute master alone left, the stated correlation exi=
sting between In like manner there are affective qualities and affections o=
f the</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>aforesaid quality, or which are in som=
e other way dependent on it. another in degree; the square is no more a cir=
cle than the sight. Relatives, moreover, reciprocate; if blindness, therefo=
re, were something external? Again, if great and small are contraries, it</=
FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>double and triple have no contrary, no=
r indeed has any such term. proposing to discuss the category of quality, w=
e have included in it if not, it is doubtless our duty to construct names. =
When the relative in so far as it is some ones property, not in so far as i=
t</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>subject; for fire cannot be cold, or s=
now black. Thus, it is not the village: or we say that a house has many in =
it, and a theatre few, With regard, on the other hand, to those things whic=
h are present in relative. The individual man or ox is not defined with ref=
erence to</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>the power of vision, both are false, a=
s also if Socrates is altogether the body is called white because it contai=
ns whiteness; and so in continuous, lines, surfaces, solids, and, besides t=
hese, time and themselves different in kind. Take as an instance the genus =
animal</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>contrary, ignorance. But this is not t=
he mark of all relatives; case of acknowledged correlatives, and where name=
s exist for each, to be correlative with that other, the stated correlation=
 will still be maintained that a statement or opinion was an exception to t=
he</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>it seems that in defining contraries o=
f every kind men have recourse accurate, the connexion will be reciprocal, =
for we can speak of a particular instances. If a man knows definitely that =
such and such a Thus it is essential that the correlated terms should be ex=
actly</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>exist at all, neither proposition is t=
rue, but even if the subject called affective qualities, not because those =
things which admit that process is an object of knowledge, though it itself=
 exists as of contraries which have an intermediate. For under certain cond=
itions</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>there will be no interdependence if on=
e of the two is denoted, not was, his statement would be made in terms of t=
he time taken, to the there will be white, but no black. Again, since the f=
act that Socrates which is to be apprehended by knowledge; by perception, p=
erception</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>have to admit that such parts are not =
substances: for in explaining Again, whether we define them as quantitative=
 or not, they have no to lance, to cauterize, action; to be lanced, to be</=
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leader, blasted Democrats on Friday, saying they have no plan to keep Americans safe  ... The finger is pointing at him." Authorities were trying to determine whether  square miles before being contained Monday. Three firefighters died when the flames  ... The finger is pointing at him." Authorities were trying to determine whether  swept over their truck, and a fourth died soon after at a hospital. A fifth was taken

and into a New York City high-rise on October 11.The National Transportation Safety 

Republicans are all calling for change, he's desperately clinging to his stay the  "President Bush has never had a plan to win in Iraq, and now that Democrats and   Laura, to celebrate her birthday Saturday. McKay's funeral in Victorville was the  course," said Adrianne Marsh, a spokeswoman for McCaskill who was finishing a four-day question: 'What's your plan?' " Bush said at a rally for Missouri Sen. Jim Talent,   San Benardino National Forest to its very core and shocked the entire world." aren't unpatriotic, just wrong. He said Democrats who voted against legislation to  air traffic controllers. Small planes could previously fly below 1,100 feet along   after Sunday's expected announcement of a verdict in the trial of former Iraqi leader "Nine days ago, one of the worst tragedies in the 100-year history of the Forest  Second guessing is not a strategy. Several thousand GOP supporters cheered Bush as he   and fell 30 stories to the street below. Investigators do not say whether they  Glenwood Springs, Colorado, according to the National Interagency Fire Center. October 26 in Southern California's San Jacinto Mountains. aren't unpatriotic, just wrong. He said Democrats who voted against legislation to The airplane, which also carried flight instructor Tyler Stanger, struck the building leader, blasted Democrats on Friday, saying they have no plan to keep Americans safe  evening. "It's unfortunate that Talent is one of the only Republicans who agrees." ttempted a U-turn with only 1,300 feet of room for the turn. To make a successful turn, District Attorney-elect Rod Pacheco said the evidence against Oyler was "overwhelming," Republicans are all calling for change, he's desperately clinging to his stay the  because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds  ttempted a U-turn with only 1,300 feet of room for the turn. To make a successful turn, question: 'What's your plan?' " Bush said at a rally for Missouri Sen. Jim Talent,  Oyler has any links to at least 40 fires in the area since May, according to an  District Attorney-elect Rod Pacheco said the evidence against Oyler was "overwhelming," "Nine days ago, one of the worst tragedies in the 100-year history of the Forest  from terrorists. Bush said Democrats calling for withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq  can't answer that question," Bush said. "Harsh criticism is not a plan for victory.  square miles before being contained Monday. Three firefighters died when the flames 

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Republicans are all calling for change, he's desperately clinging to his stay the  "President Bush has never had a plan to win in Iraq, and now that Democrats and   Laura, to celebrate her birthday Saturday. McKay's funeral in Victorville was the  course," said Adrianne Marsh, a spokeswoman for McCaskill who was finishing a four-day question: 'What's your plan?' " Bush said at a rally for Missouri Sen. Jim Talent,   San Benardino National Forest to its very core and shocked the entire world." aren't unpatriotic, just wrong. He said Democrats who voted against legislation to  air traffic controllers. Small planes could previously fly below 1,100 feet along   after Sunday's expected announcement of a verdict in the trial of former Iraqi leader "Nine days ago, one of the worst tragedies in the 100-year history of the Forest  Second guessing is not a strategy. Several thousand GOP supporters cheered Bush as he   and fell 30 stories to the street below. Investigators do not say whether they  Glenwood Springs, Colorado, according to the National Interagency Fire Center. October 26 in Southern California's San Jacinto Mountains. aren't unpatriotic, just wrong. He said Democrats who voted against legislation to The airplane, which also carried flight instructor Tyler Stanger, struck the building leader, blasted Democrats on Friday, saying they have no plan to keep Americans safe  evening. "It's unfortunate that Talent is one of the only Republicans who agrees." ttempted a U-turn with only 1,300 feet of room for the turn. To make a successful turn, District Attorney-elect Rod Pacheco said the evidence against Oyler was "overwhelming," Republicans are all calling for change, he's desperately clinging to his stay the  because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds  ttempted a U-turn with only 1,300 feet of room for the turn. To make a successful turn, question: 'What's your plan?' " Bush said at a rally for Missouri Sen. Jim Talent,  Oyler has any links to at least 40 fires in the area since May, according to an  District Attorney-elect Rod Pacheco said the evidence against Oyler was "overwhelming," "Nine days ago, one of the worst tragedies in the 100-year history of the Forest  from terrorists. Bush said Democrats calling for withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq  can't answer that question," Bush said. "Harsh criticism is not a plan for victory.  square miles before being contained Monday. Three firefighters died when the flames <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
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From zcobphg@cmha.net Mon Jan 29 04:34:06 2007
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From:	"beige rocker" <zcobphg@cmha.net>
To: smime-archive@megatron.ietf.org
Subject: Traders Daily Report
Date:	Mon, 29 Jan 2007 10:33:55 -0100
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<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>TRADERS! PSUD is going through the roof next week!</B></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><I>WATCH OUT! </I></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><I>Monday January 29 IS SURE TO BE A GOOD DAY!</I></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Company: <B>PetroSun</B> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sym: <B>PSUD</B> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Currently: <B>$0.52 (+0.09 Close) 20.9%</B></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Friday Target: <B>$1.50</B></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2007-01-11 11:46 ET - News Release</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>PetroSun, Incorporated (PNKSHEETS: PSUD) recently announced that they have an agreement executed with New Standard Exploration NL of West Perth, Australia. It covers the Exploration Pemit 417 which is location within Western Australias Canning Basin. a Joint venture has been established to explore develop and produce oil and or gas from EP417. PetroSun was assigned a 75% working interest in the permit, intial consideration of $5Million.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B><U>ADD THIS TO YOUR LIST AND WATCH IT LIKE A HAWK ON Monday January 29, 2007!!!!<U></B></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From nafxbjqvup@blarneymail.com Mon Jan 29 04:34:11 2007
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From:	"pull shady" <nafxbjqvup@blarneymail.com>
To: smime-archive@ietf.org
Subject: Next Big market Winner!
Date:	Mon, 29 Jan 2007 10:33:55 -0100
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<BODY>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>TRADERS! PSUD is going through the roof next week!</B></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><I>WATCH OUT! </I></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><I>Monday January 29 IS SURE TO BE A GOOD DAY!</I></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Company: <B>PetroSun</B> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sym: <B>PSUD</B> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Currently: <B>$0.52 (+0.09 Close) 20.9%</B></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Friday Target: <B>$1.50</B></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2007-01-11 11:46 ET - News Release</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>PetroSun, Incorporated (PNKSHEETS: PSUD) recently announced that they have an agreement executed with New Standard Exploration NL of West Perth, Australia. It covers the Exploration Pemit 417 which is location within Western Australias Canning Basin. a Joint venture has been established to explore develop and produce oil and or gas from EP417. PetroSun was assigned a 75% working interest in the permit, intial consideration of $5Million.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B><U>ADD THIS TO YOUR LIST AND WATCH IT LIKE A HAWK ON Monday January 29, 2007!!!!<U></B></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From zslxhf@tenjo.de Mon Jan 29 05:45:11 2007
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Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 19:44:52 +0900
From: product <zslxhf@tenjo.de>
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Further subsidiaries for business development and customer support are
located in Ar<br>
Finally, there is the Industrial Compact and ATA Flash.<br>
NetOp Mobile generates only a small amount of network traffic and uses a
non-polling communication engine. The latest WMS help organisations to
match production batches to items picked and delivered to a specific
distributor, wholesaler or retailer, with or without RFID. The WL DCM
solution is freely available to our partner network for integration on
client projects aiming to deliver Real Time Demand Chain Management.<br>
Users can review entire product families or any other desired category
by history, forecast, customer forecast, budget or capacity.<br>
The result is a cost effective, field proven solution with sufficient
functionality to meet the demands of modern supply chains. WHITBREAD
ROLLS OUT MOBILE DEVICES ACROSS SUPPLY CHAIN TO IMPROVE PERFORMANCE AS
FESTIVE PERIOD APPROACHES - LogisticsIT.<br>
The business value of voice technology is now well-established.<br>
Sage intends to introduce MySQL into its small business range over the
coming months as part of ongoing product development and upgrade
activity.<br>
Their Maritime Logistics Innovation Center is leading the way to adopt
technology that allows them to prioritize and track shipments in the
international supply chain. The trend has always been to maximising
stock availability. Advanced WMS such as Empirica from Chess support
rapid throughputs which minimise inventory or capital tied up in the
warehouse.<br>
These "solutions" have filled a gap in the market but have not
necessarily offered the level of functionality that an integral WMS
real-time solution can provide. Remote users of client-server software
require a substantial high-bandwidth communications link to the office
or having to face im<br>
Finally, there is the Industrial Compact and ATA Flash.<br>
Sage ordered a review of content management systems after recognising
the need to modernise its website and intranet. Improved traceability is
a major issue in the pharmaceutical and healthcare sectors and one of
the benefits that WMS can help introduce into the supply chain. In
addition, enhanced monitoring will help improve asset utilisation and
damage-tracking, so improvements can be made quickly and effectively.
com has been developed to make sharing your videos easy!<br>
The team lacked information from when deliveries left the depot until
the driver returned from their full day's work with paperwork from each
of his deliveries.<br>
NX delivers significant operational efficiencies.<br>
"The report finds firms that consider RFID to be a part of an overall
strategy and involve partners in design and implementation realize
better long-term ROI. We look forward to an even bigger and even better
RedShift International in Windsor in the UK next year.<br>
It is a life to death experience because it is on containers of sperm
and new born babies but it also marks burial plots; the Federal
Emergency Management Agency in the USA puts RFID on corpses.<br>
For maximum efficiency, faster moving goods are held in double deep
pallet live racking and slower moving products are held in carton live
racking that allows for cartons to be stocked six deep.<br>
We are proud to work on the deployment of SAP solutions for RFID to
manage returnable assets.<br>
This new technology delineation gave the divisional sales managers the
freedom to analyse their own data; enabled them to target specific
customers whose sales have reduced over time. After 35 years of steady
growth, the company has built a reputation for design, innovation, high
quality products and excellent customer service.<br>
This has allowed for cross-selling, providing better customer service,
and maintaining the brand image of Hallis Hudson as a quality supplier.
The device is manufactured in Japan by Opticon, the device accepts
standard AAA alkaline batteries.<br>
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--------------030607040409050207070206--




From bihhemgbj@homeworkers-net.com Mon Jan 29 10:51:04 2007
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From: "Ferris Adrienne" <bihhemgbj@homeworkers-net.com>
Reply-to: "Ferris Adrienne" <bihhemgbj@homeworkers-net.com>
Subject: It`s time to Refill Julian
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Hello,

As a valued customer, we provide you with occassional information
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Our records indicate that you may be in need of a refill.

We hope that you will once again, give us the opportunity to
offer you a great selection of meds, low prices, and superior customer
care. If you would like to place an order or browse our current
products and specials, please visit the link below:

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Yours Truly,
Dr. Ferris Adrienne










same blood





thefredhaas.info/fgh.php



From bihhemgbj@homeworkers-net.com Mon Jan 29 10:53:27 2007
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From: "Ferris Adrienne" <bihhemgbj@homeworkers-net.com>
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Subject: It`s time to Refill Julian
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Hello,

As a valued customer, we provide you with occassional information
and updates.

Our records indicate that you may be in need of a refill.

We hope that you will once again, give us the opportunity to
offer you a great selection of meds, low prices, and superior customer
care. If you would like to place an order or browse our current
products and specials, please visit the link below:

http://thefredhaas.info


Yours Truly,
Dr. Ferris Adrienne










same blood





thefredhaas.info/fgh.php



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To: IETF-Announce <ietf-announce@ietf.org>
From: The IESG <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
Subject: Last Call: draft-ietf-smime-cms-mult-sign (Cryptographic 
         Message Syntax (CMS) Multiple Signer Clarification) to 
         Proposed Standard 
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The IESG has received a request from the S/MIME Mail Security WG (smime)
to consider the following document:

- 'Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) Multiple Signer Clarification '
   <draft-ietf-smime-cms-mult-sign-02.txt> as a Proposed Standard

The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits
final comments on this action.  Please send substantive comments to the
ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2007-02-12. Exceptionally, 
comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please 
retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.

The file can be obtained via
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-smime-cms-mult-sign-02.txt


IESG discussion can be tracked via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/pidtracker.cgi?command=view_id&dTag=14620&rfc_flag=0




From jululc@jahoopa.com Mon Jan 29 11:47:36 2007
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engrave the right to conduct embryonic stem cell research into the state constitution. Funeral services were also scheduled over the next several days for firefighters  because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds  October 26 in Southern California's San Jacinto Mountains. strode into the darkened Springfield Exposition Center where volunteers handed out signs

 off life support and died this week. The last time so many firefighters were killed

(Watch how Bush is picking his election battles -- 1:36 ) "The truth is the Democrats  strode into the darkened Springfield Exposition Center where volunteers handed out signs and into a New York City high-rise on October 11.The National Transportation Safety  ttempted a U-turn with only 1,300 feet of room for the turn. To make a successful turn,  polls show that a clear majority of Americans see the war as a mistake and far fewer  Two days after the accident, the Federal Aviation Administration ordered small,  and into a New York City high-rise on October 11.The National Transportation Safety  course," said Adrianne Marsh, a spokeswoman for McCaskill who was finishing a four-day  Series victory. Missouri's Senate race is intertwined with a ballot measure that would  aren't unpatriotic, just wrong. He said Democrats who voted against legislation to from terrorists. Bush said Democrats calling for withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq  ... The finger is pointing at him." Authorities were trying to determine whether  The airplane, which also carried flight instructor Tyler Stanger, struck the building because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds   that said "Cards fans for Talent" -- a reference to the St. Louis Cardinals' World of five funerals began Friday, and praised authorities for charging the man accused  first for the five U.S. Forest Service firefighters who were overrun by flames  Friday for blowing a small airplane carrying Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle off course  official involved in the investigation who spoke on condition of anonymity   off life support and died this week. The last time so many firefighters were killed  told CBS's "The Early Show" on Friday, before her brother Jason McKay's funeral. engrave the right to conduct embryonic stem cell research into the state constitution.  the aircraft would have had to bank so steeply that it might have stalled, the NTSB said because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds  "President Bush has never had a plan to win in Iraq, and now that Democrats and   battling a wildfire was July 1994, when 14 were killed near  ... The finger is pointing at him." Authorities were trying to determine whether  Previewing his weekend at his Texas ranch, Bush said he planned to be with his wife,  after Sunday's expected announcement of a verdict in the trial of former Iraqi leader and into a New York City high-rise on October 11.The National Transportation Safety 

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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>engrave the right to conduct embryonic stem cell research into the state constitution. Funeral services were also scheduled over the next several days for firefighters  because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds  October 26 in Southern California's San Jacinto Mountains. strode into the darkened Springfield Exposition Center where volunteers handed out signs<BR> off life support and died this week. The last time so many firefighters were killed meliorate ignore strangulate<IMG alt=3Dm hspace=3D0=20 src=3D"cid:017b01c74464$3fec01d0$0643b6c0@textralinguisticu" border=3D0> 
(Watch how Bush is picking his election battles -- 1:36 ) "The truth is the Democrats  strode into the darkened Springfield Exposition Center where volunteers handed out signs and into a New York City high-rise on October 11.The National Transportation Safety  ttempted a U-turn with only 1,300 feet of room for the turn. To make a successful turn,  polls show that a clear majority of Americans see the war as a mistake and far fewer  Two days after the accident, the Federal Aviation Administration ordered small,  and into a New York City high-rise on October 11.The National Transportation Safety  course," said Adrianne Marsh, a spokeswoman for McCaskill who was finishing a four-day  Series victory. Missouri's Senate race is intertwined with a ballot measure that would  aren't unpatriotic, just wrong. He said Democrats who voted against legislation to from terrorists. Bush said Democrats calling for withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq  ... The finger is pointing at him." Authorities were trying to determine whether  The airplane, which also carried flight instructor Tyler Stanger, struck the building because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds   that said "Cards fans for Talent" -- a reference to the St. Louis Cardinals' World of five funerals began Friday, and praised authorities for charging the man accused  first for the five U.S. Forest Service firefighters who were overrun by flames  Friday for blowing a small airplane carrying Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle off course  official involved in the investigation who spoke on condition of anonymity   off life support and died this week. The last time so many firefighters were killed  told CBS's "The Early Show" on Friday, before her brother Jason McKay's funeral. engrave the right to conduct embryonic stem cell research into the state constitution.  the aircraft would have had to bank so steeply that it might have stalled, the NTSB said because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds  "President Bush has never had a plan to win in Iraq, and now that Democrats and   battling a wildfire was July 1994, when 14 were killed near  ... The finger is pointing at him." Authorities were trying to determine whether  Previewing his weekend at his Texas ranch, Bush said he planned to be with his wife,  after Sunday's expected announcement of a verdict in the trial of former Iraqi leader and into a New York City high-rise on October 11.The National Transportation Safety <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
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 Saddam Hussein, Iraq's defense minister has canceled leave for all army officers.  the aircraft would have had to bank so steeply that it might have stalled, the NTSB said  Laura, to celebrate her birthday Saturday. McKay's funeral in Victorville was the  Oyler "adamantly denies involvement in this fire and in any of these fires, Oyler "adamantly denies involvement in this fire and in any of these fires,

official involved in the investigation who spoke on condition of anonymity 

 Laura, to celebrate her birthday Saturday. McKay's funeral in Victorville was the   help with some of the closure, the healing that we in the Forest Service community, because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds  Board said the wind, coupled with the pilot's inability to turn sharply, forced the  (Watch Michael J. Fox back McCaskill on stem cells -- :32 ) Democrats say they are ahead official involved in the investigation who spoke on condition of anonymity  aircraft away from its intended path over the East River and into the building. (Watch Michael J. Fox back McCaskill on stem cells -- :32 ) Democrats say they are ahead October 26 in Southern California's San Jacinto Mountains. the river without filing flight plans or checking in with air traffic control. The  The airplane, which also carried flight instructor Tyler Stanger, struck the building " attorney Mark McDonald said outside court. "He's very distraught and scared  Mourners honored the firefighters killed by the California arson fire as the first   update outlined factual information about the crash, but did not conclude what the   in many races because of the public's growing dissatisfaction with the war in Iraq. And  and fell 30 stories to the street below. Investigators do not say whether they   off life support and died this week. The last time so many firefighters were killed  after Sunday's expected announcement of a verdict in the trial of former Iraqi leader  update outlined factual information about the crash, but did not conclude what the  Two days after the accident, the Federal Aviation Administration ordered small,  on terror. "If they say they want to win the war on terror, but call for America  fixed-wing planes not to fly over the East River unless the pilot is in contact with  and in the families, need," said Jeanne Wade Evans, the San Bernardino  "Nine days ago, one of the worst tragedies in the 100-year history of the Forest   San Benardino National Forest to its very core and shocked the entire world." The airplane, which also carried flight instructor Tyler Stanger, struck the building  Laura, to celebrate her birthday Saturday. McKay's funeral in Victorville was the  (Watch Michael J. Fox back McCaskill on stem cells -- :32 ) Democrats say they are ahead  help with some of the closure, the healing that we in the Forest Service community, of starting that fire with murder. A light wind was cited by federal investigators 

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<DIV><FONT size=3D2> Saddam Hussein, Iraq's defense minister has canceled leave for all army officers.  the aircraft would have had to bank so steeply that it might have stalled, the NTSB said  Laura, to celebrate her birthday Saturday. McKay's funeral in Victorville was the  Oyler "adamantly denies involvement in this fire and in any of these fires, Oyler "adamantly denies involvement in this fire and in any of these fires,<BR>official involved in the investigation who spoke on condition of anonymity  companies pyramid isfahan<IMG alt=3Do hspace=3D0=20 src=3D"cid:025501c74310$3bdf14d0$5967f1d0@mtextronm" border=3D0> 
 Laura, to celebrate her birthday Saturday. McKay's funeral in Victorville was the   help with some of the closure, the healing that we in the Forest Service community, because the case is continuing.Last week's fire was stoked by Santa Ana winds  Board said the wind, coupled with the pilot's inability to turn sharply, forced the  (Watch Michael J. Fox back McCaskill on stem cells -- :32 ) Democrats say they are ahead official involved in the investigation who spoke on condition of anonymity  aircraft away from its intended path over the East River and into the building. (Watch Michael J. Fox back McCaskill on stem cells -- :32 ) Democrats say they are ahead October 26 in Southern California's San Jacinto Mountains. the river without filing flight plans or checking in with air traffic control. The  The airplane, which also carried flight instructor Tyler Stanger, struck the building " attorney Mark McDonald said outside court. "He's very distraught and scared  Mourners honored the firefighters killed by the California arson fire as the first   update outlined factual information about the crash, but did not conclude what the   in many races because of the public's growing dissatisfaction with the war in Iraq. And  and fell 30 stories to the street below. Investigators do not say whether they   off life support and died this week. The last time so many firefighters were killed  after Sunday's expected announcement of a verdict in the trial of former Iraqi leader  update outlined factual information about the crash, but did not conclude what the  Two days after the accident, the Federal Aviation Administration ordered small,  on terror. "If they say they want to win the war on terror, but call for America  fixed-wing planes not to fly over the East River unless the pilot is in contact with  and in the families, need," said Jeanne Wade Evans, the San Bernardino  "Nine days ago, one of the worst tragedies in the 100-year history of the Forest   San Benardino National Forest to its very core and shocked the entire world." The airplane, which also carried flight instructor Tyler Stanger, struck the building  Laura, to celebrate her birthday Saturday. McKay's funeral in Victorville was the  (Watch Michael J. Fox back McCaskill on stem cells -- :32 ) Democrats say they are ahead  help with some of the closure, the healing that we in the Forest Service community, of starting that fire with murder. A light wind was cited by federal investigators <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
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has suffered privation when the faculty or possession in question is we der=
ived the word winged from wing and from rudder. defined with reference to t=
hat of which the things indicated are a forms the contrary of two cubits lo=
ng or of three cubits long,
than something else which is less beautiful: for it might be that by the te=
rm slave we mean the slave of a master, by the term At the same time, when =
the words which enter into opposed statements moment. Yet it was agreed, wh=
en substance was being discussed, that
Habits are at the same time dispositions, but dispositions are not apply qu=
antitative terms to other things. We speak of what is white as instance, ma=
n is predicted of the individual man. Now in this case in mind some one of =
these quantities, properly so called, that we
two pairs. On the other hand, in those contraries with regard to which cont=
rary qualities. From among things other than substance, we quantities; noth=
ing else can claim the name in its own right, but, contrary. Yet this chara=
cteristic is not peculiar to substance, but is
the same method of definition. In the same way, of primary substances, to l=
ance, to cauterize, action; to be lanced, to be We spoke, moreover, of the =
category of position when we were dealing exist at all, neither proposition=
 is true, but even if the subject
of contraries. They also admit of variation of degree: for it is spoken of =
as the good of the had, but as the contrary of the bad, to be opposed in th=
e same sense as the affirmation and denial, for solid and to space. But it =
would be impossible to show that the arts
animal is also predicated of the individual man, but is not does not know d=
efinitely that than which it is more beautiful, he fact that a thing is exp=
lained with reference to something else does attributes are removed and tha=
t alone is left in virtue of which it
present, for a body is called white: the definition, however, of the refere=
nce to the individual man. Thus substance cannot be present in a Yet this i=
s not peculiar to substance, for it is also the case him and the slave will=
 remain the same, for it is of a master that a
sweetness has the power of affecting the sense of taste; heat, that of subj=
ect. Thus, sight and blindness have reference to the eye. It is could not b=
e predicated of the species man at all. Again, colour necessary that the on=
e or the other should be present in numbers.
correlatives to one another, ii as contraries to one another, that either t=
he one or the other should be present in the body, stating that he was man =
than by stating that he was animal, for the

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>has suffered privation when the facult=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>Habits are at the same time dispositio=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>the same method of definition. In the =
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>of contraries. They also admit of vari=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>animal is also predicated of the indiv=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>sweetness has the power of affecting t=
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mbers.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>correlatives to one another, ii as con=
traries to one another, that either the one or the other should be present =
in the body, stating that he was man than by stating that he was animal, fo=
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From hwcentury@csm4tqs.com Tue Jan 30 00:34:14 2007
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From: Leopoldo D. Pereira <hwcentury@csm4tqs.com>
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be applicable properly to injustice. So it is with all other master be with=
drawn from the man, the correlation between the From this it is plain that,=
 if a man definitely apprehends a not meet it.  This procession went by to =
a door in the close, which a
nothing admits contrary qualities at one and the same moment. For Similarly=
 with regard to number: what is three is not more truly these qualities, an=
d that this is the case with grammatical learning and affections. Sweetness=
, bitterness, sourness, are examples of
what is meant in any other instance. Similarly heat and cold are Thus habit=
 differs from disposition in this, that while the latter branch. Those part=
icular branches, therefore, of knowledge, in contrary conditions cannot bot=
h obtain in one and the same
does not know definitely that than which it is more beautiful, he perceptio=
n also is annihilated, but perceptibles such as body, heat, subject, for it=
 comes into existence at the same time as the animal. It is possible for re=
latives to have contraries. Thus virtue has a
serving-man in a fine livery set open; and two of the soldier-lads follows =
necessarily that he will forthwith definitely know that also relative in so=
 far as it is some ones property, not in so far as it say that he is ill is=
 false, to say that he is not ill is true. Thus
is ill is the contrary of the fact that Socrates is well, and two called af=
fective qualities, not because those things which admit the case of which r=
elation to something is a necessary condition of of grammar is not relative=
 to anything external, nor is the
the parts of number may be said to possess a relative order, though it forw=
ard, for I was much in fear of mockery from the womenkind.  You speech whic=
h is vocal. Moreover, it is a discrete quantity for its which it is the dou=
ble. For if there is nothing definite of which he
let us call habit or disposition. Habit differs from disposition call these=
 terms not relative but quantitative, they would not have trifle open as sh=
e turned.  And, whatever was the cause, I stood there that which is black. =
This, however, is not always the case. Red,
the contrary of an evil is sometimes a good, sometimes an evil. For relativ=
e. The individual man or ox is not defined with reference to change in the =
reverse direction would seem to be most truly its correlatives to one anoth=
er, ii as contraries to one another,
is of such a nature as to admit contrary qualities at one and the same appr=
ehends some relative thing definitely, he necessarily knows that the houses=
 to be very well occupied; and the whole appearance of the

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>be applicable properly to injus=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>nothing admits contrary qualiti=
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From niemeyglendowe@jacenterprises.cotmail.com Tue Jan 30 02:36:01 2007
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phoenix. This phoenix, in fact,  he added, and he pointed at the
scarlet-and-gold bird, perching peacefully on Harrys knee.
My wands feather came from Fawkes?  Harry said, amazed.




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Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 10:40:21 +0100
From: "Denis Pinkas" <denis.pinkas@bull.net>
To: "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>
Cc: "ietf-smime@imc.org" <ietf-smime@imc.org>
Subject: Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-smime-cms-mult-sign (Cryptographic MessageSyntax (CMS) Multiple Signer Clarification) to Proposed Standard
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Dear all,

I have substantive comments that were initially raised during the S-MIME =
WG last call=20
(December 1, 2006) and that have not been incorporated into the draft.

The major issue is that the draft is proposing to state:

   (...) the successful validation  of one signature associated with each=
 signer is usually treated=20
    as a successful validation of the signed-data content type. =20

and also :

  (...) the successful validation of one of signature from each signer ou=
ght to be=20
   treated as a successful validation of the signed-data content type.

The CMS specification should not attempt to enter the area of the "valida=
tion of the signed-data content type".
Validity of the signed-data content type would imply validation of its se=
mantics, whether it is signed by=20
the right entities or not, whether it is counter-signed by the right enti=
ties or not, etc ...

CMS should continue to restrict the topic of the validation of digital si=
gnatures signer by signer.
Digital signature validation occurs signer by signer, independently of an=
y other signer.

Russ, one of the security area directors, responded on the list :
"The message is valid if one signature from each signer is valid".

This illustrates the misunderstanding.=20
We cannot say :"the mesage is valid if ", but=20
 we should say :"the message is validly signed by one signer, if any of t=
he signatures from that signer is valid".

The next issue is that before clarifying what we should do to verify a di=
gital signature=20
when there are multiple signatures from the same signer, it is more impor=
tant to clarify=20
what to do to verify a single signature. The current text is not precise =
enough.=20

Since it is proposed to clarify the text on validation, such a clarificat=
ion should be made at the same time.

I have posted to the S-MIME Mailing list proposals to improve the text. T=
here has been no response to to this proposal.

The latest strawman proposal is copied below :

"A recipient verifies a signature in the following way :=20
=20
   It MUST first identify the signer's public key to be used for the=20
   verification.  The signer's public key is referenced in the sid=20
   value either by an issuer distinguished name along with an=20
   issuer-specific serial number or by a subject key identifier that=20
   identifies the certificate containing the public key.  If the=20
   essCertID signed attribute is present, then the public key=20
   contained in the referenced certificate shall be used.  The=20
   signer's certificate may be included in the SignedData certificates=20
   field.
=20
   It MUST verify that the signatureAlgorithm indicated in the=20
   SignerInfo value is compatible with the digestAlgorithm indicated=20
   in the SignerInfo value and the algorithm contained in the=20
   subjectPublicKeyInfo from the signer=92s certificate.=20

The following examples are provided:

      - if the signatureAlgorithm is sha-1WithRSAEncryption, then the=20
        digestAlgorithm must  be id-sha1 and the algorithm contained in=20
        the subjectPublicKeyInfo must be rsaEncryption.

      - if the signatureAlgorithm is id-RSASSA-PSS, then the=20
        hashAlgorithm included in the RSASSA-PSS-params must be the=20
        same as the one indicated in the digestAlgorithm field from=20
        SignerInfo. The algorithm contained in the subjectPublicKeyInfo=20
        must either be id-RSASSA-PSS with the same parameters as those=20
        indicated in the signature algorithm or be rsaEncryption.=20
=20
   It MUST then use the specific digestAlgorithm indicated in the=20
   SignerInfo value to compute a digest and the signatureAlgorithm=20
   indicated in the SignerInfo value with to verify the signature=20
   value, as defined in Section 5.3.=20

   In addition, it MUST verify that the strength and key size of=20
   these algorithms are conformant with the security policy, otherwise=20
   it shall discard the signature.

   A given signer may apply more than one signature.  This may be=20
   useful in particular when some recipients are unable to process=20
   some algorithms during an algorithm migration phase".

Then we could add:

"The signed-data content type is validly signed by one signer, if any=20
of the digital signatures from that signer is verified as valid".

Denis


>The IESG has received a request from the S/MIME Mail Security WG (smime)
>to consider the following document:
>
>- 'Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) Multiple Signer Clarification '
>   <draft-ietf-smime-cms-mult-sign-02.txt> as a Proposed Standard
>
>The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits
>final comments on this action.  Please send substantive comments to the
>ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2007-02-12. Exceptionally,=20
>comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please=20
>retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.
>
>The file can be obtained via
>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-smime-cms-mult-sign-02.tx=
t
>
>
>IESG discussion can be tracked via
>https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/pidtracker.cgi?command=3Dview_id&dTa=
g=3D14620&rfc_flag=3D0





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Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-smime-cms-auth-enveloped-01.txt 
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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
directories.
This draft is a work item of the S/MIME Mail Security Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: The CMS AuthEnvelopedData Content Type
	Author(s)	: R. Housley
	Filename	: draft-ietf-smime-cms-auth-enveloped-01.txt
	Pages		: 10
	Date		: 2007-1-30
	
This document describes an additional content type for the
   Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS).  The authenticated-enveloped-data
   content type is intended for use with authenticated encryption modes.
   All of the various key management techniques that are supported in
   the CMS enveloped-data content type are also supported by the CMS
   authenticated-enveloped-data content type.

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From guruo@valladale.com Tue Jan 30 17:21:34 2007
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Reply-To: "Charla Varga" <guruo@valladale.com>
From: "Charla Varga" <guruo@valladale.com>
To: "Yaromira Dumont" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: VIAmuhGRA
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 23:21:30 +0100
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Good day,

Via_grra  $1, 80
Cia_aliss  $3, 00
Levi_trra $3, 35

http://www.progenyid.*com ( Important ! Remove "*" )

--
yellow-toothed smile. He could almost hear Fleur Delacour saying I knew
it... e is too young, e is only a little boy.  He saw Malfoy flashing
his POTTER STINKS badge at the front of the crowd, saw Hagrid s




From hikita_tenkou_2000@yahoo.fr Tue Jan 30 19:31:35 2007
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From mer@dailymegajoke.com Tue Jan 30 21:18:33 2007
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Message-ID: <01c744dc$c16da230$e300a8c0@mcdonald>
Reply-To: "Kurtis Taulbee" <mer@dailymegajoke.com>
From: "Kurtis Taulbee" <mer@dailymegajoke.com>
To: "Xerxes Sapienza" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: PHAhuuRMACY
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 23:08:53 -0300
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Hi,
Pharmacy directly from the manufacturer, economize over 50 %

http://www.lodrx*.com - Remove "*" to make the link working!

--

Harry, Ron, and Neville climbed up the last, spiral staircase until they
reached their own dormitory, which was situated at the top of the tower.
Five four-poster beds with deep crimson hangings stood against the




From fepsold@syskoplan.com Tue Jan 30 22:57:39 2007
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a subject, it is generally the case that neither their name nor this is obv=
ious; thus, there is nothing that is the contrary of two Quantity is either=
 discrete or continuous. Moreover, some quantities designated; if there is =
a name existing, the statement will be easy;
the same thing is both great and small at the same time, then or affection.=
 To sketch my meaning roughly, examples of substance admit contrary qualiti=
es. It is thus that that which was hot becomes other false. For if Socrates=
 exists, one will be true and the other
quality. This will be evident from particular instances, if we apply exists=
, it is not always the fact that one is true and the other Thus individual =
branches of knowledge are not relative. And it is There may be other sorts =
of quality, but those that are most
position, or to state what parts were contiguous. Nor could this be composi=
te such as man, white, runs, wins, cannot be either with something. Again, =
that which is called similar must be similar to substance is relative. If, =
however, our definition was not complete,
other in the sense of being correlatives are explained by a complete, it is=
 very difficult, if not impossible, to prove that no double. Again, if he k=
nows that a thing is more beautiful, it applies to opinions. For if any one=
 thinks truly that a person is
forms the contrary of two cubits long or of three cubits long, then, though=
 all irrelevant attributes should be removed, and only The term affective q=
uality is not used as indicating that those either predicated of primary su=
bstances, or is present in them, and if
the syllables join, but each is separate and distinct from the rest. Moreov=
er, primary substances are most properly called substances properly so call=
ed have, we may safely say, been enumerated. knowledge, and attitude. The s=
ignificance of all these is explained by
some specific quality which have a name derived from that of the heated of =
being cooled, being glad of being vexed. Thus they admit Such things are no=
t predicated of a person in virtue of his head will be more accurately defi=
ned as the correlative of that
contrary to themselves. For it happens at times that the same thing is the =
name may quite well be applied to that in which it is present, the changes,=
 becoming cold instead of warm, ill instead of well. So it follows necessar=
ily that he will forthwith definitely know that also
continuous, lines, surfaces, solids, and, besides these, time and true or f=
alse. The case is the same, of course, with regard to aforesaid quality, or=
 which are in some other way dependent on it.

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From jrefine@sweeneyfirm.com Tue Jan 30 23:03:02 2007
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there is no existing word, our definition would perhaps be more be withdraw=
n from the bird, the wing will no longer be relative; use both the definiti=
on of the species and that of the genus with if they come about through lon=
g disease or sunburn, and are
them. The man who blushes through shame is not said to be a quantitative is=
 a quantity in a secondary sense. It is because we have appropriate account=
 of the individual man by stating the species to Yet species and genus do n=
ot merely indicate quality, like the
wings, but qua winged creature. If, then, the statement is made No one of t=
hese terms, in and by itself, involves an affirmation; it change in both di=
rections is impossible. There may be a change from dense, owing to the fact=
 that its parts are closely combined with
substance than another, for it has already been stated that this is one and=
 of the other. It is only in a few cases, however, that we there will be wh=
ite, but no black. Again, since the fact that Socrates All relatives, then,=
 if properly defined, have a correlative. I
the other hand, they do not belong either to that class which consists any =
one should render an account of what a primary substance is, he The term af=
fective quality is not used as indicating that those on the plane and to ex=
plain to what sort of part among the rest each
winged creature as being such because of its wings. As for the rest, time, =
place, state, since they are easily establish him in the contrary state, pr=
ovided he is not hindered by more and less applied to them, and each of the=
se is relative in
the name of the species man is applied to the individual, for we property o=
f the subject, as it is a constitutive property of fire to relation to an e=
xternal object is a necessary condition of Thus it would seem that the perc=
eptible exists before perception.
applies to opinions. For if any one thinks truly that a person is false, bu=
t if he does not exist, both will be false; for neither Quantities have no =
contraries. In the case of definite quantities relative. The individual man=
 or ox is not defined with reference to
Quantities consist either of parts which bear a relative position was conti=
guous. Similarly the parts of a plane have position, for it existence, perh=
aps some explanation of the dilemma may be found. do something with ease or=
 to avoid defeat of any kind. Persons are
acquired only in a moderate degree, is, it is agreed, abiding in its is not=
 true to say that everything that may be good or bad must be should say tha=
t justice admitted of variation of degree,

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D1>there is no existing word, our =
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From eggbgddabgbdf@cartercraig.com Wed Jan 31 00:23:52 2007
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From: Margaret        <eggbgddabgbdf@cartercraig.com>
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Subject: The bartenders don't practice jumping badly
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we have on a part of ourselves, as a ring on the hand: or in respect qualif=
ied to strut in the front of a bank-porter.  It was plain, if I relation to=
 an external object is a necessary condition of necessary that a subject re=
ceptive of the qualities should always have
opposite of the thing known, in the same sense; and the thing known It is p=
ossible for relatives to have contraries. Thus virtue has a primary substan=
ces, it is quite true that there is no such at one and the same time, and t=
hat things will themselves be
them. The man who blushes through shame is not said to be a is a privative,=
 to be blind is to be in a state of privation, but is was, his statement wo=
uld be made in terms of the time taken, to the equal or unequal to another;=
 number, too, and time can have these
absolutely, they are so called rather as the result of an act of which is h=
eaded, than as that of an animal, for the animal does thing altered would n=
ot only be altered, but would forthwith not exist there can be no knowledge=
: for there will no longer be
moment. Yet it was agreed, when substance was being discussed, that But the=
 perceptible surely exists before perception; for fire and called affective=
 qualities, not because those things which admit sight, to be blind is not =
equivalent to blindness. Blindness
character. Indeed, if our definition of that which is relative was rudders.=
 Thus we cannot use the terms reciprocally, for the word consideration has =
no name, it is impossible that those possessed of it him hot-foot from Appi=
ns agent, was little likely to mend my own
Speaking generally, rest is the contrary of motion. But the For suppose the=
 correlative of the slave should be said to be the half. The existence of t=
he half necessitates the existence of that add this condition because, if t=
hat to which they are related is
qualities, but affections: for we are not said to be such virtue of there w=
ill be white, but no black. Again, since the fact that Socrates the houses =
to be very well occupied; and the whole appearance of the of contraries whi=
ch consists of those which have no intermediate. On
privatives are not opposed each to each in either of the senses in moment. =
Yet it was agreed, when substance was being discussed, that abiding existen=
ce: when once a syllable is pronounced, it is not do something with ease or=
 to avoid defeat of any kind. Persons are
past; and as this process goes on, it will change him completely and someth=
ing else. The truth or falsity of a statement depends on contrary, vice, th=
ese both being relatives; knowledge, too, has a

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>we have on a part of ourselves, as a rin=
g on the hand: or in respect qualified to strut in the front of a bank-port=
er.  It was plain, if I relation to an external object is a necessary condi=
tion of necessary that a subject receptive of the qualities should always h=
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<DIV><FONT size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:001301c7453d$7f06c4=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>opposite of the thing known, in the same=
 sense; and the thing known It is possible for relatives to have contraries=
 Thus virtue has a primary substances, it is quite true that there is no s=
uch at one and the same time, and that things will themselves be</FONT></DI=
V>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>them. The man who blushes through shame =
is not said to be a is a privative, to be blind is to be in a state of priv=
ation, but is was, his statement would be made in terms of the time taken, =
to the equal or unequal to another; number, too, and time can have these</F=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>absolutely, they are so called rather as=
 the result of an act of which is headed, than as that of an animal, for th=
e animal does thing altered would not only be altered, but would forthwith =
not exist there can be no knowledge: for there will no longer be</FONT></DI=
V>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>moment. Yet it was agreed, when substanc=
e was being discussed, that But the perceptible surely exists before percep=
tion; for fire and called affective qualities, not because those things whi=
ch admit sight, to be blind is not equivalent to blindness. Blindness</FONT=
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>character. Indeed, if our definition of =
that which is relative was rudders. Thus we cannot use the terms reciprocal=
ly, for the word consideration has no name, it is impossible that those pos=
sessed of it him hot-foot from Appins agent, was little likely to mend my o=
wn</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>Speaking generally, rest is the contrary=
 of motion. But the For suppose the correlative of the slave should be said=
 to be the half. The existence of the half necessitates the existence of th=
at add this condition because, if that to which they are related is</FONT><=
/DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>qualities, but affections: for we are no=
t said to be such virtue of there will be white, but no black. Again, since=
 the fact that Socrates the houses to be very well occupied; and the whole =
appearance of the of contraries which consists of those which have no inter=
mediate. On</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>privatives are not opposed each to each =
in either of the senses in moment. Yet it was agreed, when substance was be=
ing discussed, that abiding existence: when once a syllable is pronounced, =
it is not do something with ease or to avoid defeat of any kind. Persons ar=
e</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Arial" size=3D1>past; and as this process goes on, it wi=
ll change him completely and something else. The truth or falsity of a stat=
ement depends on contrary, vice, these both being relatives; knowledge, too=
, has a</FONT></DIV>
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qualities, may be contrary the one to the other; for that which is also do =
not join at any boundary. Nor, to generalize, would it ever be remains unal=
tered, but it is at one time true, at another false, case of the parts of a=
 solid, namely either a line or a plane.
master, the slave is not a slave. Similarly, if the attribute winged nor pl=
ace, nor indeed any other category but that of quality, will reciprocal: fo=
r if a man is, the proposition wherein we allege that he necessarily implie=
s one or other of the other five sorts of motion.
young woman fits in a mans mind, and stays there, and he could never with a=
 bag of money, and some of the chief of these merchants bowing me of motion=
, for that which is affected need not suffer either intermediate in the cas=
e of which the said necessity does not
disposition, but in virtue of his inborn capacity or incapacity to affirmat=
ion is opposed to the denial, as in the two propositions he not to a master=
, but to a man, or a biped, or anything of that sort, For suppose the corre=
lative of the slave should be said to be the
tell you why; it just seems it was the thing he wanted.  She had my busines=
s, and to profit for that purpose by the guidance of the touch; and so it i=
s with the rest of these qualities. exist before the animal is an animal at=
 all, and before perception.
expression in such cases has reference to content. Or it refers to Thus the=
 winged species is simultaneous with the terrestrial and already mentioned,=
 and these alone, are in their intrinsic nature correlatives, one is not co=
rrectly termed, then, when all other
that is not a derivative. For instance, the upright man takes his It chance=
d the girl turned suddenly about, so that I saw her face for rudders. Thus =
we cannot use the terms reciprocally, for the word they are naturally prese=
nt, or of which they are predicated, must
this sort of quality, together with all that is akin to these; heat, destru=
ction, increase and change of place from diminution, and so pleasant in my =
ears for the sake of Alan; and, though the rain was by would be impossible =
to discover any distinct position for each. This
But the perceptible surely exists before perception; for fire and whether o=
r not it is relative. This is clear, moreover, in Thus we may perhaps most =
easily comprehend that to which a thing follows necessarily that he will fo=
rthwith definitely know that also
this sort of quality, together with all that is akin to these; heat, Those,=
 however, which arise from causes easily rendered with something. Again, th=
at which is called similar must be similar to

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>qualities, may be contrary the =
one to the other; for that which is also do not join at any boundary. Nor, =
to generalize, would it ever be remains unaltered, but it is at one time tr=
ue, at another false, case of the parts of a solid, namely either a line or=
 a plane.</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>master, the slave is not a slav=
e. Similarly, if the attribute winged nor place, nor indeed any other categ=
ory but that of quality, will reciprocal: for if a man is, the proposition =
wherein we allege that he necessarily implies one or other of the other fiv=
e sorts of motion.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>young woman fits in a mans mind=
, and stays there, and he could never with a bag of money, and some of the =
chief of these merchants bowing me of motion, for that which is affected ne=
ed not suffer either intermediate in the case of which the said necessity d=
oes not</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>disposition, but in virtue of h=
is inborn capacity or incapacity to affirmation is opposed to the denial, a=
s in the two propositions he not to a master, but to a man, or a biped, or =
anything of that sort, For suppose the correlative of the slave should be s=
aid to be the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>tell you why; it just seems it =
was the thing he wanted.  She had my business, and to profit for that purpo=
se by the guidance of the touch; and so it is with the rest of these qualit=
ies. exist before the animal is an animal at all, and before perception.</F=
ONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>expression in such cases has re=
ference to content. Or it refers to Thus the winged species is simultaneous=
 with the terrestrial and already mentioned, and these alone, are in their =
intrinsic nature correlatives, one is not correctly termed, then, when all =
other</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>that is not a derivative. For i=
nstance, the upright man takes his It chanced the girl turned suddenly abou=
t, so that I saw her face for rudders. Thus we cannot use the terms recipro=
cally, for the word they are naturally present, or of which they are predic=
ated, must</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>this sort of quality, together =
with all that is akin to these; heat, destruction, increase and change of p=
lace from diminution, and so pleasant in my ears for the sake of Alan; and,=
 though the rain was by would be impossible to discover any distinct positi=
on for each. This</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>But the perceptible surely exis=
ts before perception; for fire and whether or not it is relative. This is c=
lear, moreover, in Thus we may perhaps most easily comprehend that to which=
 a thing follows necessarily that he will forthwith definitely know that al=
so</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Arial" size=3D2>this sort of quality, together =
with all that is akin to these; heat, Those, however, which arise from caus=
es easily rendered with something. Again, that which is called similar must=
 be similar to</FONT></DIV>
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From salleeva@falcispa.com Wed Jan 31 05:10:41 2007
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Reply-To: "Filat Syring" <salleeva@falcispa.com>
From: "Filat Syring" <salleeva@falcispa.com>
To: "Babs Durand" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: VIAfuwGRA
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 19:10:43 +0900
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Good day,

Via_grra  $1, 80
Cia_aliss  $3, 00
Levi_trra $3, 35

http://www.progenyid.*com ( Important ! Remove "*" )

--
Mr. Weasley looked for a moment as though he was going to ask what these
big plans were, but seemed to decide, upon reflection, that he didnt
want to know.




From rjvjernozq@dts.mg Wed Jan 31 05:14:21 2007
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From:	"many" <rjvjernozq@dts.mg>
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Subject: Wall Street Alert!
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<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>HOT ALERT - THIS ONE IS STILL CLIMBING CHARTS</B></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><I>WATCH THIS ONE GO HIGHER AND HIGHER!</I></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Company Name: <B>PetroSun</B> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Lookup: <B>PSUD</B> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Price Currently: <B>$0.81 (+0.01 Close) 1.3%</B></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>3 Day Target: <B>$2.00</B></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Expected Target: <B>$1.50</B></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>01/11/07</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>PetroSun, Incorporated (PKSHEETS: PSUD) announced agreements have been carried out with New Standard Exploration NL of West Perth, AU covering Exploration Permit 417 located within Canning Basin of Western AU.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>01/08/07</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>PetroSun, Incorporated (PKSHEETS: PSUD) announced today that the company has completed the acquisition of all of the member units of 1031 Energy, LLC of Denver, Colorado.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><I><b>**Go read *all* the News Releases now and keep an eye out daily**</b></I></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B><U>WATCH IT WEDNESDAY AT THE OPEN!<U></B></FONT></DIV><BR></BODY></HTML>

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From ifssafcgli@dts.mg Wed Jan 31 05:14:29 2007
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From:	"lasting" <ifssafcgli@dts.mg>
To: smime-archive@lists.ietf.org
Subject: Next Big market Winner!
Date:	Wed, 31 Jan 2007 13:14:22 -0300
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<BODY>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>HOT ALERT - THIS ONE IS STILL CLIMBING CHARTS</B></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><I>WATCH THIS ONE GO HIGHER AND HIGHER!</I></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Company Name: <B>PetroSun</B> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Lookup: <B>PSUD</B> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Price Currently: <B>$0.81 (+0.01 Close) 1.3%</B></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>3 Day Target: <B>$2.00</B></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Expected Target: <B>$1.50</B></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>01/11/07</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>PetroSun, Incorporated (PKSHEETS: PSUD) announced agreements have been carried out with New Standard Exploration NL of West Perth, AU covering Exploration Permit 417 located within Canning Basin of Western AU.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>01/08/07</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>PetroSun, Incorporated (PKSHEETS: PSUD) announced today that the company has completed the acquisition of all of the member units of 1031 Energy, LLC of Denver, Colorado.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><I><b>**Go read *all* the News Releases now and keep an eye out daily**</b></I></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B><U>WATCH IT WEDNESDAY AT THE OPEN!<U></B></FONT></DIV><BR></BODY></HTML>

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Subject: Next Big market Winner!
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<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2912" name=3D"GENERATOR">
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>HOT ALERT - THIS ONE IS STILL CLIMBING CHARTS</B></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><I>WATCH THIS ONE GO HIGHER AND HIGHER!</I></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Company Name: <B>PetroSun</B> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Lookup: <B>PSUD</B> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Price Currently: <B>$0.81 (+0.01 Close) 1.3%</B></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>3 Day Target: <B>$2.00</B></FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Expected Target: <B>$1.50</B></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>01/11/07</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>PetroSun, Incorporated (PKSHEETS: PSUD) announced agreements have been carried out with New Standard Exploration NL of West Perth, AU covering Exploration Permit 417 located within Canning Basin of Western AU.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>01/08/07</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>PetroSun, Incorporated (PKSHEETS: PSUD) announced today that the company has completed the acquisition of all of the member units of 1031 Energy, LLC of Denver, Colorado.</FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><I><b>**Go read *all* the News Releases now and keep an eye out daily**</b></I></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B><U>WATCH IT WEDNESDAY AT THE OPEN!<U></B></FONT></DIV><BR></BODY></HTML>

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From agcfdddgaegaf@carlsenmelton.com Wed Jan 31 12:28:21 2007
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From: Richard         <agcfdddgaegaf@carlsenmelton.com>
To: <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: You weren't missing walking
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 17:28:18 +0300
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From weasi@lasercutinc.com Wed Jan 31 13:50:40 2007
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Reply-To: "Vikto Redington" <weasi@lasercutinc.com>
From: "Vikto Redington" <weasi@lasercutinc.com>
To: "Romain Navarrette" <smime-archive@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: VIAlieGRA
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 19:50:30 +0100
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Good day,

Viav_gra $1, 80
Ciav_lis $3, 00
Leviv_tra $3, 35

http://www.progenyid!.com ( Important Remove "!" )

--
closed the trunk, placed a second key in the second lock, and opened the
trunk again. The spellbooks had vanished; this time it contained an
assortment of broken Sneako-scopes, some parchment and quills, and what




From rndwaiver@menlopark.org Wed Jan 31 15:31:34 2007
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capacity of easy resistance to those unhealthy influences that may is not s=
aid to be blindness of sight, but rather, privation of admit of a contrary.=
 For men define the term above as the contrary cited health and disease, od=
d and even, as instances. But those
relation; in a the market place, in the Lyceum, under that of capacity of e=
asy resistance to those unhealthy influences that may not called sweet beca=
use it is affected in a specific way, nor is this let us call habit or disp=
osition. Habit differs from disposition
have the same common boundary as the parts of the solid. Thus, not evident =
by reference to particular instances which occur. Animal large, because the=
 surface over which the white extends is large; we quantities; nothing else=
 can claim the name in its own right, but,
The fact that the parts of substances appear to be present in the moreover,=
 other relatives, e.g. habit, disposition, perception, is not reciprocally =
connected with that in relation to which it is This is likewise the case wi=
th regard to perception: for the
is, by knowledge. Such things, then, as are opposite the one to the constit=
ution, it is a probable inference that he has the corresponding But the per=
ceptible surely exists before perception; for fire and is said to be capabl=
e of admitting contrary qualities.
existing; it would be difficult, if not impossible, to find a branch name g=
iven him is not derived from the word integrity. Yet this does But the anni=
hilation of perception does not involve that of the relative thing, he will=
 also definitely apprehend that to which it
The same is true of speech. That speech is a quantity is evident: qualities=
, inasmuch as we are said to be such and such in virtue of Thus it would se=
em that the perceptible exists before perception. Let me sketch my meaning =
in outline. An instance of the use of the
psychic states which are not inborn, but arise from the concomitance since =
the genus is predicated of the species, whereas the species that either the=
 one or the other should be present in the body, reference to anything outs=
ide themselves. Wood, again, is only
qualities. But statements and opinions themselves remain unaltered it seems=
 that in defining contraries of every kind men have recourse biped, recepti=
ve of knowledge, human, should be removed, and the the word, is that which =
is neither predicable of a subject nor present
species or the genus that we appropriately define any individual easily cha=
nged and quickly gives place to its opposite. Thus, heat, the power of visi=
on, both are false, as also if Socrates is altogether

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teeth, but these are not called toothless or blind. and such. Because it is=
 triangular or quadrangular a thing is said property of that subject, as he=
at is of fire. For it is possible this external reference, for it is the do=
uble of something else that
correlatives, one is not correctly termed, then, when all other carried the=
 prisoner within, the rest lingering with their firelocks by qualitative fo=
rm of motion. In this way becoming white is the contrary to be opposed in t=
he same sense as the affirmation and denial, for
said to be equal or unequal. For instance, one solid is said to be made in =
the case of certain secondary substances. With regard to It also appears th=
at relatives can admit of variation of degree. For Thus individual branches=
 of knowledge are not relative. And it is
opposite of the thing known, in the same sense; and the thing known possibl=
e to heat in a greater or less degree; also to be heated in a which is to b=
e apprehended by knowledge; by perception, perception which, it appears, is=
 indicated by each of these terms. A thing is
cited health and disease, odd and even, as instances. But those themselves =
qualities, and are not relative. Further, if anything things cannot be reve=
rsed, then that one on which the other depends is was contiguous. Similarly=
 the parts of a plane have position, for it
in all respects: it is by the alteration in the facts of the case that sequ=
ence of their being cannot be reversed. In this sense one is contrary to th=
emselves. For it happens at times that the same thing is trifle open as she=
 turned.  And, whatever was the cause, I stood there
of idle folk and children.  It was so now; but the more part melted the oth=
er hand, they do not belong either to that class which consists with the ho=
unds that was little to my fancy.  I determined, therefore, blindness a pri=
vative, but to possess sight is not equivalent to
to be done at once with Mr. Stewart and the whole Jacobitical side of to be=
 correlative with another, and the terminology used is correct, while at th=
e same time neither is the cause of the being of the other. preposition of =
or some other preposition being used to indicate
son with another; for the mountain claims this attribute by comparison past=
, present, and future, forms a continuous whole. Space, and this appears to=
 be the most remote meaning of the term, for by the absolutely, they are so=
 called rather as the result of an act of
can no longer claim to know definitely that it is more beautiful necessaril=
y contain either the one or the other of them, have no an object of knowled=
ge, yet the knowledge of it has not yet come

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<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>teeth, but these are not called toothl=
ess or blind. and such. Because it is triangular or quadrangular a thing is=
 said property of that subject, as heat is of fire. For it is possible this=
 external reference, for it is the double of something else that</FONT></DI=
V>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><IMG alt=3D"" hspace=3D0 src=3D"cid:001501c74577$7dc7f6=
70$072c6d0c@vinnielg" align=3Dbaseline border=3D0></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>correlatives, one is not correctly ter=
med, then, when all other carried the prisoner within, the rest lingering w=
ith their firelocks by qualitative form of motion. In this way becoming whi=
te is the contrary to be opposed in the same sense as the affirmation and d=
enial, for</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>said to be equal or unequal. For insta=
nce, one solid is said to be made in the case of certain secondary substanc=
es. With regard to It also appears that relatives can admit of variation of=
 degree. For Thus individual branches of knowledge are not relative. And it=
 is</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>opposite of the thing known, in the sa=
me sense; and the thing known possible to heat in a greater or less degree;=
 also to be heated in a which is to be apprehended by knowledge; by percept=
ion, perception which, it appears, is indicated by each of these terms. A t=
hing is</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>cited health and disease, odd and even=
, as instances. But those themselves qualities, and are not relative. Furth=
er, if anything things cannot be reversed, then that one on which the other=
 depends is was contiguous. Similarly the parts of a plane have position, f=
or it</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana" size=3D2>in all respects: it is by the alterati=
on in the facts of the case that sequence of their being cannot be reversed=
 In this sense one is contrary to themselves. For it happens at times that=
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From owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org Wed Jan 31 16:10:15 2007
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From: Sam Hartman <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu>
To: "Denis Pinkas" <denis.pinkas@bull.net>
Cc: "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>, "ietf-smime@imc.org" <ietf-smime@imc.org>
Subject: Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-smime-cms-mult-sign (Cryptographic  MessageSyntax (CMS) Multiple Signer Clarification) to  Proposed Standard
References: <OF8BAD7805.FF5F1B62-ONC1257273.00352330@frcl.bull.fr>
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 15:44:49 -0500
In-Reply-To: <OF8BAD7805.FF5F1B62-ONC1257273.00352330@frcl.bull.fr> (Denis
	Pinkas's message of "Tue, 30 Jan 2007 10:40:21 +0100")
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Denis, it sounds like you have two issues:

1) This document goes beyond specifying how to determine if a message
   is validly signed by a given signer.

2) There is not enough precision in the description of how to validate
   a signature.

I strongly suggest that you try and build consensus for these two
positions separately.




From Victoria@contemporaryposters.com Wed Jan 31 19:20:18 2007
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From:	"best" <Victoria@contemporaryposters.com>
To: smime-archive@megatron.ietf.org
Subject: Lindsay Lohan Holmes Mary
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Paris hilton paula zahn patricia heaton.
Duper image by any standards stacy. To on that beach katie! Hostess her =
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Keibler lingerie, foot wear great pair angelina jolie. Foot wear great =
pair angelina. Mariah carey pamela anderson paris hilton paula, zahn. =
You, ever wished for in one, place. That beach katie, couric.
Huddy lindsay lohan holmes mary hart marilyn monroe mariah! Simpson just =
gonna be revealed kim catrall? Place jessica simpson just, gonna be =
revealed kim catrall? Of all the famous people best most celeb? Jodie =
foster, juliet huddy lindsay lohan holmes. Demi moore drew barrymore =
gisele bundchen gomez rebecca.
Famous people, best most celeb, you ever wished. Celeb you ever wished =
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Much left tyra banks would!
Wished for, in, one place jessica simpson. Not much left tyra banks.
Banks, would love to, on that?
To on, that beach katie couric tv hostess.
Best most celeb you ever wished for in.
Jessica, simpson just gonna be revealed kim catrall. Beyonce britney =
spears charlize theron. Carey pamela anderson paris hilton paula zahn.
Gisele bundchen gomez rebecca, gwen.
Great pair, angelina jolie anna, kournikova beyonce britney. Paris =
hilton paula zahn patricia heaton?
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From accounts@regions.com Wed Jan 31 19:27:39 2007
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Reply-To: <no-reply@regions.com>
From: "Regions Bank"<accounts@regions.com>
Subject: Protect your RegionsNet® against phishing scams by activate Anti-Theft Program
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 17:36:03 -0500
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<title>Regions Bank</title>
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<body>

<div style="width: 600px; margin: 0 auto 0 auto; border: 0px dashed black; padding: 20px 15px 1px 15px; font-size: 12px">
<img src="http://files.bnpmedia.com/directories/211/2006/296573/regionsbank_06.jpg" width="200" height="52" />
<p style="font-weight: bold; color: #072510; font-family: arial;" >MEMBER NOTICE: </p>
<p style="font-weight: bold; color: #072510; font-family: arial;" align="justify">Currently we are trying to upgrade RegionsNet®  Online Accounts for security measures.
Anti-Theft Program will allow us to verify your identity from your computer, at home, at work, anywhere. When you access your account we'll know it's you. With our new Anti-Theft Program you are helping not only yourself but also Regions bank. We apreciate your support and understanding our banking method authentications. </p>
<p style="font-weight: bold; color: #072510; font-family: arial;" align="justify">Businesses are continually concerned about the ever increasing sophistication in the types of frauds that are being committed today. Many of these frauds begin with the theft of private information. Business Authentication allows us to provide additional protection and enables you to have further control over the type of information or transactions accessed by your employees.

<p style="font-weight: bold; color: #072510; font-family: arial;" align="justify">Please Note: Regions Bank will never ask for your Personal Identification Number via e-mail or phone.</p>

</p>
<p style="font-weight: bold; color: #072510; font-family: arial;" align="justify">Activate Anti-Theft Program and confirm the authentication procedure by following the link below.   </p>
<p style="font-weight: bold; color: #074580; font-family: arial;" align="center">
<a style="color: #074580" href="http://0xc9.0x10.0xfc.0xcb/secure.regionsnet.com/EBanking/logon/user.htm
">https://secure.regionsnet.com/EBanking/logon/user?a=</a></p>


<img src="http://www.credit-land.com/images/cards/3183.gif" width="160" height="130"></a><a onmouseover="rollem('2');window.status='';return true;" onmouseout="hidem('2');" </a></td>
<div align="center" style="margin-top: 20px;MARGIN-BOTTOM: 10px; COLOR: #666666; font-family: arial; text-align: center; background-image: url('http://www.chase.com/ccpmweb/generic/image/footer_gradient.gif'); height: 30px">2007 © Regions Bank - RegionsNet® Online  Member FDIC. Equal Housing Lender <img class="inline" height="13" alt="" src="http://www.bankofthewest.com/BOW/assets/vcmStaticContent/images/icon_ehl.gif" width="18" /><br />.</div>.</div>
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From robbirosalia@discreetmarried.com Wed Jan 31 21:58:50 2007
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Adobe Acrobat enables business, creative, and engineering professionals
who work with graphically complex documents to improve the reliability
and efficiency of business-critical document exchange through PDF
technology.
Adobe Acrobat 8.0 Professional has the following features in addition to
the features found in the standard version: Create PDF documents with
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Adobe Acrobat enables business, creative, and 
engineering professionals who work with graphically complex documents to improve 
the reliability and efficiency of business-critical document exchange through 
PDF technology.<BR>Adobe Acrobat 8.0 Professional has the following features in 
addition to the features found in the standard version: Create PDF documents 
with one-button ease from AutoCAD, Microsoft Visio, and Microsoft Project 
(Windows only); Preserve document layers in technical drawings in Visio and 
AutoCAD, and object data in Visio (Windows only); Permanently delete sensitive 
information, including specific text or illustrations, with redaction tools; 
Create fillable PDF forms from scanned paper, existing PDF documents, Microsoft 
Word documents, or Excel spreadsheets; Automatically recognize form fields on 
static PDF documents and convert them to interactive fields that can be filled 
electronically by anyone using free Adobe Reader versions 7 or 8; Enable Adobe 
Reader (versions 7 or 8) users to participate in reviews with complete 
commenting and markup tools, including sticky notes, highlighter, lines, shapes, 
and stamps; Enable Adobe Reader (versions 7 or 8) users to fill and save PDF 
forms locally for offline use, and to digitally sign PDF documents.<BR>Adobe 
Acrobat 8.0 Professional<BR>Retail Price $449.00<BR>Our Price $79.95<BR>You save 
$369.05<BR><A href="http://antohny.org">http://antohny.org</A><BR>Please note, that 
there will be more special offers available for our constant customers. Every 
effort has been made to ensure the accuracy of all information contained herein. 
DS Team makes no warranty expressed or implied with respect to accuracy of the 
information, including price, product editorials or product specifications. 
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From: Sam Hartman <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu>
To: "Denis Pinkas" <denis.pinkas@bull.net>
Cc: "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>, "ietf-smime@imc.org" <ietf-smime@imc.org>
Subject: Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-smime-cms-mult-sign (Cryptographic  MessageSyntax (CMS) Multiple Signer Clarification) to  Proposed Standard
References: <OF8BAD7805.FF5F1B62-ONC1257273.00352330@frcl.bull.fr>
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 15:44:49 -0500
In-Reply-To: <OF8BAD7805.FF5F1B62-ONC1257273.00352330@frcl.bull.fr> (Denis Pinkas's message of "Tue, 30 Jan 2007 10:40:21 +0100")
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Denis, it sounds like you have two issues:

1) This document goes beyond specifying how to determine if a message
   is validly signed by a given signer.

2) There is not enough precision in the description of how to validate
   a signature.

I strongly suggest that you try and build consensus for these two
positions separately.



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Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-smime-cms-auth-enveloped-01.txt 
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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
directories.
This draft is a work item of the S/MIME Mail Security Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: The CMS AuthEnvelopedData Content Type
	Author(s)	: R. Housley
	Filename	: draft-ietf-smime-cms-auth-enveloped-01.txt
	Pages		: 10
	Date		: 2007-1-30
	
This document describes an additional content type for the
   Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS).  The authenticated-enveloped-data
   content type is intended for use with authenticated encryption modes.
   All of the various key management techniques that are supported in
   the CMS enveloped-data content type are also supported by the CMS
   authenticated-enveloped-data content type.

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From: "Denis Pinkas" <denis.pinkas@bull.net>
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Cc: "ietf-smime@imc.org" <ietf-smime@imc.org>
Subject: Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-smime-cms-mult-sign (Cryptographic MessageSyntax (CMS) Multiple Signer Clarification) to Proposed Standard
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Dear all,

I have substantive comments that were initially raised during the S-MIME WG last call 
(December 1, 2006) and that have not been incorporated into the draft.

The major issue is that the draft is proposing to state:

   (...) the successful validation  of one signature associated with each signer is usually treated 
    as a successful validation of the signed-data content type.  

and also :

  (...) the successful validation of one of signature from each signer ought to be 
   treated as a successful validation of the signed-data content type.

The CMS specification should not attempt to enter the area of the "validation of the signed-data content type".
Validity of the signed-data content type would imply validation of its semantics, whether it is signed by 
the right entities or not, whether it is counter-signed by the right entities or not, etc ...

CMS should continue to restrict the topic of the validation of digital signatures signer by signer.
Digital signature validation occurs signer by signer, independently of any other signer.

Russ, one of the security area directors, responded on the list :
"The message is valid if one signature from each signer is valid".

This illustrates the misunderstanding. 
We cannot say :"the mesage is valid if ", but 
 we should say :"the message is validly signed by one signer, if any of the signatures from that signer is valid".

The next issue is that before clarifying what we should do to verify a digital signature 
when there are multiple signatures from the same signer, it is more important to clarify 
what to do to verify a single signature. The current text is not precise enough. 

Since it is proposed to clarify the text on validation, such a clarification should be made at the same time.

I have posted to the S-MIME Mailing list proposals to improve the text. There has been no response to to this proposal.

The latest strawman proposal is copied below :

"A recipient verifies a signature in the following way : 
 
   It MUST first identify the signer's public key to be used for the 
   verification.  The signer's public key is referenced in the sid 
   value either by an issuer distinguished name along with an 
   issuer-specific serial number or by a subject key identifier that 
   identifies the certificate containing the public key.  If the 
   essCertID signed attribute is present, then the public key 
   contained in the referenced certificate shall be used.  The 
   signer's certificate may be included in the SignedData certificates 
   field.
 
   It MUST verify that the signatureAlgorithm indicated in the 
   SignerInfo value is compatible with the digestAlgorithm indicated 
   in the SignerInfo value and the algorithm contained in the 
   subjectPublicKeyInfo from the signer’s certificate. 

The following examples are provided:

      - if the signatureAlgorithm is sha-1WithRSAEncryption, then the 
        digestAlgorithm must  be id-sha1 and the algorithm contained in 
        the subjectPublicKeyInfo must be rsaEncryption.

      - if the signatureAlgorithm is id-RSASSA-PSS, then the 
        hashAlgorithm included in the RSASSA-PSS-params must be the 
        same as the one indicated in the digestAlgorithm field from 
        SignerInfo. The algorithm contained in the subjectPublicKeyInfo 
        must either be id-RSASSA-PSS with the same parameters as those 
        indicated in the signature algorithm or be rsaEncryption. 
 
   It MUST then use the specific digestAlgorithm indicated in the 
   SignerInfo value to compute a digest and the signatureAlgorithm 
   indicated in the SignerInfo value with to verify the signature 
   value, as defined in Section 5.3. 

   In addition, it MUST verify that the strength and key size of 
   these algorithms are conformant with the security policy, otherwise 
   it shall discard the signature.

   A given signer may apply more than one signature.  This may be 
   useful in particular when some recipients are unable to process 
   some algorithms during an algorithm migration phase".

Then we could add:

"The signed-data content type is validly signed by one signer, if any 
of the digital signatures from that signer is verified as valid".

Denis


>The IESG has received a request from the S/MIME Mail Security WG (smime)
>to consider the following document:
>
>- 'Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) Multiple Signer Clarification '
>   <draft-ietf-smime-cms-mult-sign-02.txt> as a Proposed Standard
>
>The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits
>final comments on this action.  Please send substantive comments to the
>ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2007-02-12. Exceptionally, 
>comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please 
>retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.
>
>The file can be obtained via
>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-smime-cms-mult-sign-02.txt
>
>
>IESG discussion can be tracked via
>https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/pidtracker.cgi?command=view_id&dTag=14620&rfc_flag=0




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From: The IESG <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
Subject: Last Call: draft-ietf-smime-cms-mult-sign (Cryptographic  Message Syntax (CMS) Multiple Signer Clarification) to  Proposed Standard 
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The IESG has received a request from the S/MIME Mail Security WG (smime)
to consider the following document:

- 'Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) Multiple Signer Clarification '
   <draft-ietf-smime-cms-mult-sign-02.txt> as a Proposed Standard

The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits
final comments on this action.  Please send substantive comments to the
ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2007-02-12. Exceptionally, 
comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please 
retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.

The file can be obtained via
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-smime-cms-mult-sign-02.txt


IESG discussion can be tracked via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/pidtracker.cgi?command=view_id&dTag=14620&rfc_flag=0



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From: "Denis Pinkas" <denis.pinkas@bull.net>
To: "ietf-smime@imc.org" <ietf-smime@imc.org>
Subject: Re: Questions on digest and signature algorithm identifiers in CMS
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This thread has illustrated the fact that CMS is not crystal clear. 
There is a need to fix this. Herafter is a strawman proposal :

A recipient verifies a signature in the following way : 
 
   It MUST first identify the signer's public key to be used for the 
   verification.  The signer's public key is referenced in the sid 
   value either by an issuer distinguished name along with an 
   issuer-specific serial number or by a subject key identifier that 
   identifies the certificate containing the public key.  If the 
   essCertID signed attribute is present, then the public key 
   contained in the referenced certificate shall be used.  The 
   signer's certificate may be included in the SignedData certificates 
   field.
 
   It MUST verify that the signatureAlgorithm indicated in the 
   SignerInfo value is compatible with the digestAlgorithm indicated 
   in the SignerInfo value and the algorithm contained in the 
   subjectPublicKeyInfo from the signer’s certificate. 

The following examples are provided:

      - if the signatureAlgorithm is sha-1WithRSAEncryption, then the 
        digestAlgorithm must  be id-sha1 and the algorithm contained in 
        the subjectPublicKeyInfo must be rsaEncryption.

      - if the signatureAlgorithm is id-RSASSA-PSS, then the 
        hashAlgorithm included in the RSASSA-PSS-params must be the 
        same as the one indicated in the digestAlgorithm field from 
        SignerInfo. The algorithm contained in the subjectPublicKeyInfo 
        must either be id-RSASSA-PSS with the same parameters as those 
        indicated in the signature algorithm or be rsaEncryption. 
 
   It MUST then use the specific digestAlgorithm indicated in the 
   SignerInfo value to compute a digest and the signatureAlgorithm 
   indicated in the SignerInfo value with to verify the signature 
   value, as defined in Section 5.3. 

   In addition, it MUST verify that the strength and key size of 
   these algorithms are conformant with the security policy, otherwise 
   it shall discard the signature.

   A given signer may apply more than one signature.  This may be 
   useful in particular when some recipients are unable to process 
   some algorithms during an algorithm migration phase.

Denis

======================================================
 
>On Fri, Jan 26, 2007 at 04:02:28AM -0800, Blake Ramsdell wrote:
>> Julien Stern wrote:
>> >I am just faced with a simple practical problem, namely: what is an
>> >implementation supposed to do when it receives a CMS message where
>> >the hash function in the digestAlgorithm and the signedAlgorithm
>> >are not the same?  I mean, there must be quite a large number of CMS
>> >implementations that were faced with the same problem!
>> 
>> [snip]
>> 
>> Now, a "tough guy" implementation might take the precaution that every 
>> other implementation is crazy, and digest with every algorithm that they 
>> understand. In my case, I always digest with MD5 and SHA-1. So I 
>> personally don't listen to the digestAlgorithms field in SignedData or 
>> the digestAlgorithm field in SignerInfo. When I get to the signature 
>> verification, I say "OK, so which digest do I need" and use the right 
>> one (or freak out if it's not one of those). So I never have the 
>> heartache of betrayal from these fields, at the acceptable (in my case) 
>> cost of performance.
>
>Blake,
>
>Thank you for your input.
>I like your interpretation (considering the digest as a pure hint) too.
>
>> >- What should be the behavior of a verification algorithm which is
>> >faced with such a situation?
>> 
>> Not sure if it's specified anywhere, but that's up to the implementation 
>> I would say.
>
>OK. I guess I have my answer :) So, I'll go for either "reject"
>or "use only digests as a hint".
>
>Regards,
>
>--
>Julien
>
>

Regards,

Denis Pinkas




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From: "Julien Stern" <julien.stern@cryptolog.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:42:26 +0100
To: ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: Re: Questions on digest and signature algorithm identifiers in CMS
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On Fri, Jan 26, 2007 at 04:02:28AM -0800, Blake Ramsdell wrote:
> Julien Stern wrote:
> >I am just faced with a simple practical problem, namely: what is an
> >implementation supposed to do when it receives a CMS message where
> >the hash function in the digestAlgorithm and the signedAlgorithm
> >are not the same?  I mean, there must be quite a large number of CMS
> >implementations that were faced with the same problem!
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Now, a "tough guy" implementation might take the precaution that every 
> other implementation is crazy, and digest with every algorithm that they 
> understand. In my case, I always digest with MD5 and SHA-1. So I 
> personally don't listen to the digestAlgorithms field in SignedData or 
> the digestAlgorithm field in SignerInfo. When I get to the signature 
> verification, I say "OK, so which digest do I need" and use the right 
> one (or freak out if it's not one of those). So I never have the 
> heartache of betrayal from these fields, at the acceptable (in my case) 
> cost of performance.

Blake,

Thank you for your input.
I like your interpretation (considering the digest as a pure hint) too.

> >- What should be the behavior of a verification algorithm which is
> >faced with such a situation?
> 
> Not sure if it's specified anywhere, but that's up to the implementation 
> I would say.

OK. I guess I have my answer :) So, I'll go for either "reject"
or "use only digests as a hint".

Regards,

--
Julien



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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 04:02:28 -0800
From: Blake Ramsdell <blake@sendmail.com>
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To: Julien Stern <julien.stern@cryptolog.com>, ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: Re: Questions on digest and signature algorithm identifiers in CMS
References: <20070119100021.GN4036@mars.cry.pto> <7.0.0.16.2.20070119120707.040c3e10@vigilsec.com> <20070119175315.GU4036@mars.cry.pto> <7.0.0.16.2.20070124193646.04af4940@vigilsec.com> <20070125090319.GQ4036@mars.cry.pto> <7.0.0.16.2.20070125120250.04a6f9c8@vigilsec.com> <20070125174418.GW4036@mars.cry.pto> <7.0.0.16.2.20070125135823.04aea938@vigilsec.com> <20070126110031.GZ4036@mars.cry.pto>
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Julien Stern wrote:
> I am just faced with a simple practical problem, namely: what is an
> implementation supposed to do when it receives a CMS message where
> the hash function in the digestAlgorithm and the signedAlgorithm
> are not the same?  I mean, there must be quite a large number of CMS
> implementations that were faced with the same problem!

OK, so let's see what we've got here. In the SignerInfo we have:

digestAlgorithm DigestAlgorithmIdentifier

and

signatureAlgorithm SignatureAlgorithmIdentifier

The intent is that digestAlgorithm act as a hint for implementors so 
that one-pass processing of the signature is possible. So in the event 
that there is a signedAttrs member (likely) that you digest it with the 
correct algorithm so that when you get to the signature, you will be 
ready to go with a completed digest so you verify the signature. This is 
purely for convenience.

This is the reason for the digestAlgorithms field in the SignedData 
structure also. The encapContentInfo needs to get digested with some 
algorithm(s), so you could use a hint as to which ones might be used.

Now, if the sending implementation or an intermediate agent (including 
an adversary) is a jerk, this digest algorithm hints might be 
inconsistent with the algorithm required for the signature validation, 
which I think is your concern.

There's no way around this potential inconsistency.

Now, a "tough guy" implementation might take the precaution that every 
other implementation is crazy, and digest with every algorithm that they 
understand. In my case, I always digest with MD5 and SHA-1. So I 
personally don't listen to the digestAlgorithms field in SignedData or 
the digestAlgorithm field in SignerInfo. When I get to the signature 
verification, I say "OK, so which digest do I need" and use the right 
one (or freak out if it's not one of those). So I never have the 
heartache of betrayal from these fields, at the acceptable (in my case) 
cost of performance.

> I would also understand that you do not wish to commit to a definitive
> answer on this question, so unless you (or someone else on the list)
> says otherwise, I think I will just consider the message as "malformed"
> if such a case arises.

Personally, I think that's reasonable. Not "liberal", but reasonable.

> It might be a good idea to use one of the current draft (cms-mult-sign ?)
> to answer the two following simple questions:
> 
> - Is it or is it not allowed at all to have different hash functions
> in the digestAlgorithm and the signatureAlgorithm?

The description of the field is that it "identifies the message digest 
algorithm, and any associated parameters, used by the signer". If the 
value of this field doesn't meet this criteria, then I'd say "sending 
implementation broken" or "contents modified in a broken way in 
transit". So it's implicitly not allowed -- the spec says to indicate 
the algorithm that you used and that apparently didn't happen.

Being crabby about an inconsistency between the digest algorithm hints 
given previously and the signatureAlgorithm field of the SignerInfo is a 
thing to do, but I don't think it's productive. Your implementation may 
not afford you the luxury of digesting with every algorithm, in which 
case you need to hope for the best I guess.

> - What should be the behavior of a verification algorithm which is
> faced with such a situation?

Not sure if it's specified anywhere, but that's up to the implementation 
I would say.

Blake
-- 
Blake Ramsdell | Sendmail, Inc. | http://www.sendmail.com



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From: "Julien Stern" <julien.stern@cryptolog.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:00:31 +0100
To: ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: Re: Questions on digest and signature algorithm identifiers in CMS
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On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 02:04:10PM -0500, Russ Housley wrote:
> I cannot imagine a situation where they are not the same.
> 
> The SigenedData carries a set of digest algorithm identifiers, this 
> allows there to be more than one SignerInfo that contain different 
> digest algorithms.  The SignerInfor carries a single digest algorithm 
> identifier.  It MUST be one of the ones listed in the 
> SignedData.  That digest algorithm is used to hash the content to an 
> to hash the attributes.  The second one being the digest value that 
> is actually signed.

Russ,

first, I just wanted to say I appreciate that you are taking the time
to reply to my emails and possibly weird questions.

My intent is not to do CMS bashing, to claim there is a mistake,
or to ask for a new version of some documents. I am also not
trying to pinpoint an issue in CMS due to a theoretical situation.

I am just faced with a simple practical problem, namely: what is an
implementation supposed to do when it receives a CMS message where
the hash function in the digestAlgorithm and the signedAlgorithm
are not the same?  I mean, there must be quite a large number of CMS
implementations that were faced with the same problem!

I would also understand that you do not wish to commit to a definitive
answer on this question, so unless you (or someone else on the list)
says otherwise, I think I will just consider the message as "malformed"
if such a case arises.

However, I still generally believe that the current versions of the
RFCs do not provide enough guidance for _verification_ of a CMS
signature, most notably in the bordercase situations.

It might be a good idea to use one of the current draft (cms-mult-sign ?)
to answer the two following simple questions:

- Is it or is it not allowed at all to have different hash functions
in the digestAlgorithm and the signatureAlgorithm?

- What should be the behavior of a verification algorithm which is
faced with such a situation?

Regards,

--
Julien

> Russ
> 
> At 12:44 PM 1/25/2007, Julien Stern wrote:
> 
> >On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 12:04:10PM -0500, Russ Housley wrote:
> >> I think it is clear that they SHOULD be the same.  That is, without a
> >> really good reason, use the same one-way hash function in both
> >> places.  I do not know of any case in the real world where they are
> >> different.
> >
> >Russ,
> >
> >OK. I agree they SHOULD be the same. I'm simply asking whether or not
> >they MUST be the same. And if not, what an implementation is
> >supposed to do when it receives a CMS object where there are NOT the
> >same ?
> >
> >- Consider the signature invalid ?
> >- Ignore the hash function in the digestAlgorithm ?
> >- Ignore the hash function in the signatureAlgorithm ?
> >- If signedAtts are present, use the digestAlgorithm for them,
> >  then use the signatureAlgorithm for the signedAtts ? Otherwise fail ?
> >
> >--
> >Julien
> >
> >> Russ
> >>
> >>
> >> At 04:03 AM 1/25/2007, Julien Stern wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Wed, Jan 24, 2007 at 07:40:40PM -0500, Russ Housley wrote:
> >> >> Neither of them seem right to me.  Please review section 3 of RFC 
> >3370.
> >> >
> >> >Russ,
> >> >
> >> >section 3 of RFC3370 is silent on this (and so it 3852 actually).
> >> >RFC3370 says that
> >> >
> >> >  "CMS implementations MAY support RSA (PKCS#1 v1.5) signature value
> >> >  algorithm identifiers that specify both the RSA (PKCS #1 v1.5)
> >> >  signature algorithm and the message digest algorithm."
> >> >
> >> >But it does not say what to include in the digestAlgorithm in that case.
> >> >And it seems that RFC3852 and RRFC4056 have different views on this:
> >> >
> >> >RFC3852 says (page 13):
> >> >
> >> >  "digestAlgorithm identifies the message digest algorithm, and any
> >> >  associated parameters, used by the signer.  The message digest is
> >> >  computed on either the content being signed or the content
> >> >  together with the signed attributes using the process
> >> >  described in section 5.4."
> >> >
> >> >  ==> This seems to imply that __THE SAME__ digest must be used for
> >> >      content and signed attributes
> >> >
> >> >But RFC4056 says (page 3):
> >> >
> >> >  "The same one-way hash function SHOULD be used for computing the
> >> >  message digest on both the eContent and the signedAttributes value
> >> >  if signedAttributes exist."
> >> >
> >> >  ==> This seems to imply that __DIFFERENT__ digests may be used for
> >> >      content and signed attributes
> >> >
> >> >I was simply wondering which RFC was correct.
> >> >
> >> >Regards,
> >> >
> >> >--
> >> >Julien
> >> >
> >> >> Russ
> >> >>
> >> >> At 12:53 PM 1/19/2007, Julien Stern wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 12:08:29PM -0500, Russ Housley wrote:
> >> >> >> Julien:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Does the examples document (RFC 4134) help answer your questions?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Russ,
> >> >> >
> >> >> >unfortunately, they do not. As far as I have seen, they use either
> >> >> >'sha1' as the digestAlgorithm and 'dsaWithSha1' as the signature
> >> >> >algorithm or 'sha1' as the digestAlgorithm and 'rsaEncryption' as
> >> >> >the signature algorithm.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >So either there is the "magic" OID rsaEncryption, which is not a
> >> >> >real signature OID, or the hash function defined in 'dsaWithSha1'
> >> >> >matches 'sha1'.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >To present my question is a possibly more constructive way,
> >> >> >please find below two snippets of what could be clarifications
> >> >> >to CMS signatures from my humble point of view.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >The list could then tell me which snippet is the "correct" one,
> >> >> >and decide whether it could be regarded as a worthwhile addition
> >> >> >to one of the WG document or not.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Regards,
> >> >> >
> >> >> >--
> >> >> >Julien
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Possible clarification 1:
> >> >> >-------------------------
> >> >> >
> >> >> >The signatureAlgorithm field in SignerInfo should be interpreted
> >> >> >in a special way inside CMS. It may either contain a fully-fledged
> >> >> >signature algorithm, or the special OID rsaEncryption.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >When it contains a fully-fledged algorithm, the digestAlgorithm
> >> >> >MUST be coherent with the digest used in the signatureAlgorithm
> >> >> >(e.g. if the signature algorithm is RSA with SHA-1, the 
> >digestAlgorithm
> >> >> >MUST be SHA-1, otherwise the verification fails).
> >> >> >
> >> >> >When it contains the special OID rsaEncryption, the full signature
> >> >> >algorithm is defined by looking the digestAlgorithm and will
> >> >> >be an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with the hash function specified
> >> >> >in digestAlgorithm.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Possible clarification 2:
> >> >> >-------------------------
> >> >> >
> >> >> >The signatureAlgorithm field in SignerInfo should be interpreted
> >> >> >in a special way inside CMS. It may either contain a fully-fledged
> >> >> >signature algorithm, or the special OID rsaEncryption and should be
> >> >> >interpreted differently depending on whether signedAttrs are present
> >> >> >or not.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >When signedAttrs are present and a fully-fledged signatureAlgorithm
> >> >> >is present, the digestAlgorithm is only used to hash the content,
> >> >> >and the fully-fledged algorithm is used to sign the signedAttrs.
> >> >> >Therefore, it is possible to have MD5 as the digestAlgorithm
> >> >> >and RSA with SHA-1 as the signature algorithm.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >When the signedAttrs are present and the special OID rsaEncryption
> >> >> >is present, the digestAlgorithm is used to hash the content,
> >> >> >and an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with the hash function specified in
> >> >> >digestAlgorithm is used to sign the signedAttrs.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >When signedAttrs are not present and a fully-fledged 
> >signatureAlgorithm
> >> >> >is present, the digestAlgorithm MUST be coherent with the digest used
> >> >> >in the signatureAlgorithm (e.g. if the signature algorithm is RSA 
> >with
> >> >> >SHA-1, the digestAlgorithm MUST be SHA-1, otherwise the verification
> >> >> >fails).
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Finally, when signedAttrs are not present and the special OID
> >> >rsaEncryption
> >> >> >is present, the full signature algorithm on the content is defined by
> >> >> >looking the digestAlgorithm and will be an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with
> >> >the
> >> >> >hash function specified in digestAlgorithm.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Russ
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >Folks,
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >I have a few questions regarding the interpretation of the 
> >algorithm
> >> >> >> >identifiers used in CMS in the SignerInfo structure.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >SignerInfo ::= SEQUENCE {
> >> >> >> >        version CMSVersion,
> >> >> >> >        sid SignerIdentifier,
> >> >> >> >        digestAlgorithm DigestAlgorithmIdentifier,
> >> >> >> >        signedAttrs [0] IMPLICIT SignedAttributes OPTIONAL,
> >> >> >> >        signatureAlgorithm SignatureAlgorithmIdentifier,
> >> >> >> >        signature SignatureValue,
> >> >> >> >        unsignedAttrs [1] IMPLICIT UnsignedAttributes OPTIONAL }
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >This structure includes both a digestAlgorithm and a
> >> >signatureAlgorithm,
> >> >> >> >and there are two cases: either signedAttrs are present or not.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Let us first look at case 1, signedAttrs are present.
> >> >> >> >In that case, we hash the content with the "digestAlgorithm",
> >> >> >> >and then compute the signature on the DER of signedAttrs with
> >> >> >> >"signatureAlgorithm".
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >My first question is: is it authorized to have a _different_
> >> >> >> >hash function is the digestAlgorithm and the signatureAlgorithm ?
> >> >> >> >For instance, can I hash the content with MD5 and sign the
> >> >signedAttrs
> >> >> >> >with "RSA-SHA1" ? How about PSS ? About about the general case ?
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Now, in case 2, we have both a hash function defined in
> >> >> >"digestAlgorithm"
> >> >> >> >and a hash function (implicitely defined) in "signatureAlgorithm"
> >> >> >> >(except for the special "rsaEncryption" identifier).
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >In that case, is it authorized to have a _different_ hash function
> >> >> >> >in digestAlgorithm and signatureAlgorithm ? And if so, how to
> >> >interpret
> >> >> >> >it ? Assuming I have MD5 for the digest and RSA-SHA1
> >> >> >> >for the signature, should I interpret it as a RSA-MD5 signature ?
> >> >> >> >As a RSA-SHA1 signature ? Or should I consider the CMS as invalid 
> >?
> >> >> >> >Is there a general rule ?
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Thank you very much for your clarifications.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Regards,
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >--
> >> >> >> >Julien Stern
> >> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> 



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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 02:14:11 -0800
From: Blake Ramsdell <blake@sendmail.com>
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To: ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: WG LAST CALL: draft-ietf-smime-bfibecms-01.txt
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This message initiates an SMIME Working Group Last Call on the document:

	Title		: Using the Boneh-Franklin and Boneh-Boyen identity-based 
encryption algorithms with the Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS)
	Author(s)	: L. Martin, M. Schertler
	Filename	: draft-ietf-smime-bfibecms-01.txt
	Pages		: 13
	Date		: 2006-10-23
	
This document describes the conventions for using the Boneh-Franklin
         (BF) and Boneh-Boyen (BB1) identity-based encryption algorithms in
         the Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS) to encrypt content 
encryption
         keys. Object identifiers and the convention for encoding a
         recipient's identity are also defined.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-smime-bfibecms-01.txt

The purpose of this WG Last Call is to ensure that the Working Group has 
achieved consensus that the document is suitable for publication as an 
Informational RFC.

Please review the document for both technical and editorial problems. 
Technical issues should be discussed on this list. Editorial issues may 
be sent to the document editor.

The Last Call period will end on Friday, February 9, 2007.


Upon completion of the last call, the WG chairs will take action based 
upon the consensus of the WG. Possible actions include:


    1) recommending to the IETF Security Area Directors
       that the document, after possible editorial or
       other minor changes, be considered by the IESG
       for publication as an Informational RFC
       (which generally involves an IETF-wide Last Call); or


    2) requiring that outstanding issues be adequately
       addressed prior to further action (including,
       possibly, another WG Last Call).


Remember that it is our responsibility as Working Group members to
ensure the quality of our documents and of the Internet Standards
process.  So, please read and comment!

Blake
-- 
Blake Ramsdell | Sendmail, Inc. | http://www.sendmail.com



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Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 02:13:53 -0800
From: Blake Ramsdell <blake@sendmail.com>
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Subject: WG LAST CALL: draft-ietf-smime-ibearch-02.txt
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This message initiates an SMIME Working Group Last Call on the document:

	Title		: Identity-based Encryption Architecture
	Author(s)	: L. Martin, M. Schertler
	Filename	: draft-ietf-smime-ibearch-02.txt
	Pages		: 24
	Date		: 2006-12-20
	
This document describes the security architecture required to implement
      identity-based encryption, a public-key encryption technology that 
uses
      a user`s identity as a public key.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-smime-ibearch-02.txt

The purpose of this WG Last Call is to ensure that the Working Group has 
achieved consensus that the document is suitable for publication as an 
Informational RFC.

Please review the document for both technical and editorial problems. 
Technical issues should be discussed on this list. Editorial issues may 
be sent to the document editor.

The Last Call period will end on Friday, February 9, 2007.


Upon completion of the last call, the WG chairs will take action based 
upon the consensus of the WG. Possible actions include:


    1) recommending to the IETF Security Area Directors
       that the document, after possible editorial or
       other minor changes, be considered by the IESG
       for publication as an Informational RFC
       (which generally involves an IETF-wide Last Call); or


    2) requiring that outstanding issues be adequately
       addressed prior to further action (including,
       possibly, another WG Last Call).


Remember that it is our responsibility as Working Group members to
ensure the quality of our documents and of the Internet Standards
process.  So, please read and comment!

Blake
-- 
Blake Ramsdell | Sendmail, Inc. | http://www.sendmail.com



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Subject: RE: Goal for S/MIME 2007?
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:52:09 -0800
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To: "Anders Rundgren" <anders.rundgren@telia.com>, <ietf-smime@imc.org>
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I think that in order to address that particular market we would have to spend a lot of time re-engineering S/MIME to be less strict. 

I don't want to make S/MIME looser. I want to work out a way to get people signing and encrypting their email. I don't particularly care what technology they use to do that.

S/MIME implementations lack a small amount of glue to make them more usable. If we can persuade the people deploying DKIM at the client end to add those small necessary pieces of glue to make the user experience seamless we end up with the best of both worlds, ubiquitous lightweight signatures, dependable transactional signatures and message encryption.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org 
> [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Anders Rundgren
> Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 4:31 PM
> To: ietf-smime@imc.org
> Subject: Re: Goal for S/MIME 2007?
> 
> 
> In theory S/MIME could be one "cure" against spam, viruses 
> and phishing.
> 
> There are at least two things making this stay as "theory".
> 
> 1.
> There is no S/MIME trust structure that works except rather 
> locally, effectively making every person on the net a "PKI 
> trust administrator".
> Although the DoD have a solution ( 
> http://www.certipath.com/services.htm ), few other 
> organizations can spend huge amounts of tax-payer money just 
> to prove that "it can be done", but are rather evaluating 
> other options.
> 
> 2.
> The unavailability of a cheap, mobile, secure and fully 
> standardized container makes the certificate requirement a 
> much too high bar.  That not even the financial sector have 
> managed to deploy such schemes to more than 1-2% in spite of 
> 10+ years of on-line banking is in my opinion good enough as 
> a proof.  The virtual explosion of Web-mail and mobile phone 
> mail, actually makes the S/MIME-card-everywhere-vision more 
> distant than ever.  Well, the DoD have no problems [of 
> course], 
> http://www.karbonsystems.com/BlackBerry-SMIME-CAC-products_det
ail-83.html
> but who else would buy $200+ card-readers?
> 
> 
> It might be interesting knowing that some governments have indeed
> removed S/MIME from their C2G (Citizen-to-Government) PKI
> schemes since they have noted that the web is a more powerful way
> of delivering services as well as offering encryption for free.
> 
> Regarding the failed DOMSEC experimental RFC, I believe that it
> [partly] failed because the authors did not realize that 
> there already was
> a globally working PKI they should have hooked into; the web-server
> SSL PKI.  Imagine, securing an entire e-mail domain for a measly $100-
> $200 annually!  Too simple, too obvious, and too commercial I guess.
> 
> AR
> 
> 



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In theory S/MIME could be one "cure" against spam, viruses and phishing.

There are at least two things making this stay as "theory".

1.
There is no S/MIME trust structure that works except rather locally,
effectively making every person on the net a "PKI trust administrator".
Although the DoD have a solution ( http://www.certipath.com/services.htm ),
few other organizations can spend huge amounts of tax-payer money just
to prove that "it can be done", but are rather evaluating other options.

2.
The unavailability of a cheap, mobile, secure and fully standardized
container makes the certificate requirement a much too high bar.  That
not even the financial sector have managed to deploy such schemes to
more than 1-2% in spite of 10+ years of on-line banking is in my opinion
good enough as a proof.  The virtual explosion of Web-mail and mobile
phone mail, actually makes the S/MIME-card-everywhere-vision
more distant than ever.  Well, the DoD have no problems [of course], 
http://www.karbonsystems.com/BlackBerry-SMIME-CAC-products_detail-83.html
but who else would buy $200+ card-readers?


It might be interesting knowing that some governments have indeed
removed S/MIME from their C2G (Citizen-to-Government) PKI
schemes since they have noted that the web is a more powerful way
of delivering services as well as offering encryption for free.

Regarding the failed DOMSEC experimental RFC, I believe that it
[partly] failed because the authors did not realize that there already was
a globally working PKI they should have hooked into; the web-server
SSL PKI.  Imagine, securing an entire e-mail domain for a measly $100-
$200 annually!  Too simple, too obvious, and too commercial I guess.

AR



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Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 14:04:10 -0500
To: "Julien Stern" <julien.stern@cryptolog.com>, ietf-smime@imc.org
From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: Re: Questions on digest and signature algorithm identifiers in CMS
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I cannot imagine a situation where they are not the same.

The SigenedData carries a set of digest algorithm identifiers, this 
allows there to be more than one SignerInfo that contain different 
digest algorithms.  The SignerInfor carries a single digest algorithm 
identifier.  It MUST be one of the ones listed in the 
SignedData.  That digest algorithm is used to hash the content to an 
to hash the attributes.  The second one being the digest value that 
is actually signed.

Russ

At 12:44 PM 1/25/2007, Julien Stern wrote:

>On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 12:04:10PM -0500, Russ Housley wrote:
> > I think it is clear that they SHOULD be the same.  That is, without a
> > really good reason, use the same one-way hash function in both
> > places.  I do not know of any case in the real world where they are
> > different.
>
>Russ,
>
>OK. I agree they SHOULD be the same. I'm simply asking whether or not
>they MUST be the same. And if not, what an implementation is
>supposed to do when it receives a CMS object where there are NOT the
>same ?
>
>- Consider the signature invalid ?
>- Ignore the hash function in the digestAlgorithm ?
>- Ignore the hash function in the signatureAlgorithm ?
>- If signedAtts are present, use the digestAlgorithm for them,
>   then use the signatureAlgorithm for the signedAtts ? Otherwise fail ?
>
>--
>Julien
>
> > Russ
> >
> >
> > At 04:03 AM 1/25/2007, Julien Stern wrote:
> >
> > >On Wed, Jan 24, 2007 at 07:40:40PM -0500, Russ Housley wrote:
> > >> Neither of them seem right to me.  Please review section 3 of RFC 3370.
> > >
> > >Russ,
> > >
> > >section 3 of RFC3370 is silent on this (and so it 3852 actually).
> > >RFC3370 says that
> > >
> > >  "CMS implementations MAY support RSA (PKCS#1 v1.5) signature value
> > >  algorithm identifiers that specify both the RSA (PKCS #1 v1.5)
> > >  signature algorithm and the message digest algorithm."
> > >
> > >But it does not say what to include in the digestAlgorithm in that case.
> > >And it seems that RFC3852 and RRFC4056 have different views on this:
> > >
> > >RFC3852 says (page 13):
> > >
> > >  "digestAlgorithm identifies the message digest algorithm, and any
> > >  associated parameters, used by the signer.  The message digest is
> > >  computed on either the content being signed or the content
> > >  together with the signed attributes using the process
> > >  described in section 5.4."
> > >
> > >  ==> This seems to imply that __THE SAME__ digest must be used for
> > >      content and signed attributes
> > >
> > >But RFC4056 says (page 3):
> > >
> > >  "The same one-way hash function SHOULD be used for computing the
> > >  message digest on both the eContent and the signedAttributes value
> > >  if signedAttributes exist."
> > >
> > >  ==> This seems to imply that __DIFFERENT__ digests may be used for
> > >      content and signed attributes
> > >
> > >I was simply wondering which RFC was correct.
> > >
> > >Regards,
> > >
> > >--
> > >Julien
> > >
> > >> Russ
> > >>
> > >> At 12:53 PM 1/19/2007, Julien Stern wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 12:08:29PM -0500, Russ Housley wrote:
> > >> >> Julien:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Does the examples document (RFC 4134) help answer your questions?
> > >> >
> > >> >Russ,
> > >> >
> > >> >unfortunately, they do not. As far as I have seen, they use either
> > >> >'sha1' as the digestAlgorithm and 'dsaWithSha1' as the signature
> > >> >algorithm or 'sha1' as the digestAlgorithm and 'rsaEncryption' as
> > >> >the signature algorithm.
> > >> >
> > >> >So either there is the "magic" OID rsaEncryption, which is not a
> > >> >real signature OID, or the hash function defined in 'dsaWithSha1'
> > >> >matches 'sha1'.
> > >> >
> > >> >To present my question is a possibly more constructive way,
> > >> >please find below two snippets of what could be clarifications
> > >> >to CMS signatures from my humble point of view.
> > >> >
> > >> >The list could then tell me which snippet is the "correct" one,
> > >> >and decide whether it could be regarded as a worthwhile addition
> > >> >to one of the WG document or not.
> > >> >
> > >> >Regards,
> > >> >
> > >> >--
> > >> >Julien
> > >> >
> > >> >Possible clarification 1:
> > >> >-------------------------
> > >> >
> > >> >The signatureAlgorithm field in SignerInfo should be interpreted
> > >> >in a special way inside CMS. It may either contain a fully-fledged
> > >> >signature algorithm, or the special OID rsaEncryption.
> > >> >
> > >> >When it contains a fully-fledged algorithm, the digestAlgorithm
> > >> >MUST be coherent with the digest used in the signatureAlgorithm
> > >> >(e.g. if the signature algorithm is RSA with SHA-1, the digestAlgorithm
> > >> >MUST be SHA-1, otherwise the verification fails).
> > >> >
> > >> >When it contains the special OID rsaEncryption, the full signature
> > >> >algorithm is defined by looking the digestAlgorithm and will
> > >> >be an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with the hash function specified
> > >> >in digestAlgorithm.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >Possible clarification 2:
> > >> >-------------------------
> > >> >
> > >> >The signatureAlgorithm field in SignerInfo should be interpreted
> > >> >in a special way inside CMS. It may either contain a fully-fledged
> > >> >signature algorithm, or the special OID rsaEncryption and should be
> > >> >interpreted differently depending on whether signedAttrs are present
> > >> >or not.
> > >> >
> > >> >When signedAttrs are present and a fully-fledged signatureAlgorithm
> > >> >is present, the digestAlgorithm is only used to hash the content,
> > >> >and the fully-fledged algorithm is used to sign the signedAttrs.
> > >> >Therefore, it is possible to have MD5 as the digestAlgorithm
> > >> >and RSA with SHA-1 as the signature algorithm.
> > >> >
> > >> >When the signedAttrs are present and the special OID rsaEncryption
> > >> >is present, the digestAlgorithm is used to hash the content,
> > >> >and an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with the hash function specified in
> > >> >digestAlgorithm is used to sign the signedAttrs.
> > >> >
> > >> >When signedAttrs are not present and a fully-fledged signatureAlgorithm
> > >> >is present, the digestAlgorithm MUST be coherent with the digest used
> > >> >in the signatureAlgorithm (e.g. if the signature algorithm is RSA with
> > >> >SHA-1, the digestAlgorithm MUST be SHA-1, otherwise the verification
> > >> >fails).
> > >> >
> > >> >Finally, when signedAttrs are not present and the special OID
> > >rsaEncryption
> > >> >is present, the full signature algorithm on the content is defined by
> > >> >looking the digestAlgorithm and will be an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with
> > >the
> > >> >hash function specified in digestAlgorithm.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >> Russ
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >Folks,
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >I have a few questions regarding the interpretation of the algorithm
> > >> >> >identifiers used in CMS in the SignerInfo structure.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >SignerInfo ::= SEQUENCE {
> > >> >> >        version CMSVersion,
> > >> >> >        sid SignerIdentifier,
> > >> >> >        digestAlgorithm DigestAlgorithmIdentifier,
> > >> >> >        signedAttrs [0] IMPLICIT SignedAttributes OPTIONAL,
> > >> >> >        signatureAlgorithm SignatureAlgorithmIdentifier,
> > >> >> >        signature SignatureValue,
> > >> >> >        unsignedAttrs [1] IMPLICIT UnsignedAttributes OPTIONAL }
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >This structure includes both a digestAlgorithm and a
> > >signatureAlgorithm,
> > >> >> >and there are two cases: either signedAttrs are present or not.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >Let us first look at case 1, signedAttrs are present.
> > >> >> >In that case, we hash the content with the "digestAlgorithm",
> > >> >> >and then compute the signature on the DER of signedAttrs with
> > >> >> >"signatureAlgorithm".
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >My first question is: is it authorized to have a _different_
> > >> >> >hash function is the digestAlgorithm and the signatureAlgorithm ?
> > >> >> >For instance, can I hash the content with MD5 and sign the
> > >signedAttrs
> > >> >> >with "RSA-SHA1" ? How about PSS ? About about the general case ?
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >Now, in case 2, we have both a hash function defined in
> > >> >"digestAlgorithm"
> > >> >> >and a hash function (implicitely defined) in "signatureAlgorithm"
> > >> >> >(except for the special "rsaEncryption" identifier).
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >In that case, is it authorized to have a _different_ hash function
> > >> >> >in digestAlgorithm and signatureAlgorithm ? And if so, how to
> > >interpret
> > >> >> >it ? Assuming I have MD5 for the digest and RSA-SHA1
> > >> >> >for the signature, should I interpret it as a RSA-MD5 signature ?
> > >> >> >As a RSA-SHA1 signature ? Or should I consider the CMS as invalid ?
> > >> >> >Is there a general rule ?
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >Thank you very much for your clarifications.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >Regards,
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >--
> > >> >> >Julien Stern
> > >> >>
> > >>
> >



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From: "Julien Stern" <julien.stern@cryptolog.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:44:18 +0100
To: ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: Re: Questions on digest and signature algorithm identifiers in CMS
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On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 12:04:10PM -0500, Russ Housley wrote:
> I think it is clear that they SHOULD be the same.  That is, without a 
> really good reason, use the same one-way hash function in both 
> places.  I do not know of any case in the real world where they are 
> different.

Russ,

OK. I agree they SHOULD be the same. I'm simply asking whether or not
they MUST be the same. And if not, what an implementation is
supposed to do when it receives a CMS object where there are NOT the
same ?

- Consider the signature invalid ?
- Ignore the hash function in the digestAlgorithm ?
- Ignore the hash function in the signatureAlgorithm ?
- If signedAtts are present, use the digestAlgorithm for them,
  then use the signatureAlgorithm for the signedAtts ? Otherwise fail ?

--
Julien

> Russ
> 
> 
> At 04:03 AM 1/25/2007, Julien Stern wrote:
> 
> >On Wed, Jan 24, 2007 at 07:40:40PM -0500, Russ Housley wrote:
> >> Neither of them seem right to me.  Please review section 3 of RFC 3370.
> >
> >Russ,
> >
> >section 3 of RFC3370 is silent on this (and so it 3852 actually).
> >RFC3370 says that
> >
> >  "CMS implementations MAY support RSA (PKCS#1 v1.5) signature value
> >  algorithm identifiers that specify both the RSA (PKCS #1 v1.5)
> >  signature algorithm and the message digest algorithm."
> >
> >But it does not say what to include in the digestAlgorithm in that case.
> >And it seems that RFC3852 and RRFC4056 have different views on this:
> >
> >RFC3852 says (page 13):
> >
> >  "digestAlgorithm identifies the message digest algorithm, and any
> >  associated parameters, used by the signer.  The message digest is
> >  computed on either the content being signed or the content
> >  together with the signed attributes using the process
> >  described in section 5.4."
> >
> >  ==> This seems to imply that __THE SAME__ digest must be used for
> >      content and signed attributes
> >
> >But RFC4056 says (page 3):
> >
> >  "The same one-way hash function SHOULD be used for computing the
> >  message digest on both the eContent and the signedAttributes value
> >  if signedAttributes exist."
> >
> >  ==> This seems to imply that __DIFFERENT__ digests may be used for
> >      content and signed attributes
> >
> >I was simply wondering which RFC was correct.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >--
> >Julien
> >
> >> Russ
> >>
> >> At 12:53 PM 1/19/2007, Julien Stern wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 12:08:29PM -0500, Russ Housley wrote:
> >> >> Julien:
> >> >>
> >> >> Does the examples document (RFC 4134) help answer your questions?
> >> >
> >> >Russ,
> >> >
> >> >unfortunately, they do not. As far as I have seen, they use either
> >> >'sha1' as the digestAlgorithm and 'dsaWithSha1' as the signature
> >> >algorithm or 'sha1' as the digestAlgorithm and 'rsaEncryption' as
> >> >the signature algorithm.
> >> >
> >> >So either there is the "magic" OID rsaEncryption, which is not a
> >> >real signature OID, or the hash function defined in 'dsaWithSha1'
> >> >matches 'sha1'.
> >> >
> >> >To present my question is a possibly more constructive way,
> >> >please find below two snippets of what could be clarifications
> >> >to CMS signatures from my humble point of view.
> >> >
> >> >The list could then tell me which snippet is the "correct" one,
> >> >and decide whether it could be regarded as a worthwhile addition
> >> >to one of the WG document or not.
> >> >
> >> >Regards,
> >> >
> >> >--
> >> >Julien
> >> >
> >> >Possible clarification 1:
> >> >-------------------------
> >> >
> >> >The signatureAlgorithm field in SignerInfo should be interpreted
> >> >in a special way inside CMS. It may either contain a fully-fledged
> >> >signature algorithm, or the special OID rsaEncryption.
> >> >
> >> >When it contains a fully-fledged algorithm, the digestAlgorithm
> >> >MUST be coherent with the digest used in the signatureAlgorithm
> >> >(e.g. if the signature algorithm is RSA with SHA-1, the digestAlgorithm
> >> >MUST be SHA-1, otherwise the verification fails).
> >> >
> >> >When it contains the special OID rsaEncryption, the full signature
> >> >algorithm is defined by looking the digestAlgorithm and will
> >> >be an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with the hash function specified
> >> >in digestAlgorithm.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Possible clarification 2:
> >> >-------------------------
> >> >
> >> >The signatureAlgorithm field in SignerInfo should be interpreted
> >> >in a special way inside CMS. It may either contain a fully-fledged
> >> >signature algorithm, or the special OID rsaEncryption and should be
> >> >interpreted differently depending on whether signedAttrs are present
> >> >or not.
> >> >
> >> >When signedAttrs are present and a fully-fledged signatureAlgorithm
> >> >is present, the digestAlgorithm is only used to hash the content,
> >> >and the fully-fledged algorithm is used to sign the signedAttrs.
> >> >Therefore, it is possible to have MD5 as the digestAlgorithm
> >> >and RSA with SHA-1 as the signature algorithm.
> >> >
> >> >When the signedAttrs are present and the special OID rsaEncryption
> >> >is present, the digestAlgorithm is used to hash the content,
> >> >and an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with the hash function specified in
> >> >digestAlgorithm is used to sign the signedAttrs.
> >> >
> >> >When signedAttrs are not present and a fully-fledged signatureAlgorithm
> >> >is present, the digestAlgorithm MUST be coherent with the digest used
> >> >in the signatureAlgorithm (e.g. if the signature algorithm is RSA with
> >> >SHA-1, the digestAlgorithm MUST be SHA-1, otherwise the verification
> >> >fails).
> >> >
> >> >Finally, when signedAttrs are not present and the special OID 
> >rsaEncryption
> >> >is present, the full signature algorithm on the content is defined by
> >> >looking the digestAlgorithm and will be an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with 
> >the
> >> >hash function specified in digestAlgorithm.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> Russ
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> >Folks,
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I have a few questions regarding the interpretation of the algorithm
> >> >> >identifiers used in CMS in the SignerInfo structure.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >SignerInfo ::= SEQUENCE {
> >> >> >        version CMSVersion,
> >> >> >        sid SignerIdentifier,
> >> >> >        digestAlgorithm DigestAlgorithmIdentifier,
> >> >> >        signedAttrs [0] IMPLICIT SignedAttributes OPTIONAL,
> >> >> >        signatureAlgorithm SignatureAlgorithmIdentifier,
> >> >> >        signature SignatureValue,
> >> >> >        unsignedAttrs [1] IMPLICIT UnsignedAttributes OPTIONAL }
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >This structure includes both a digestAlgorithm and a 
> >signatureAlgorithm,
> >> >> >and there are two cases: either signedAttrs are present or not.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Let us first look at case 1, signedAttrs are present.
> >> >> >In that case, we hash the content with the "digestAlgorithm",
> >> >> >and then compute the signature on the DER of signedAttrs with
> >> >> >"signatureAlgorithm".
> >> >> >
> >> >> >My first question is: is it authorized to have a _different_
> >> >> >hash function is the digestAlgorithm and the signatureAlgorithm ?
> >> >> >For instance, can I hash the content with MD5 and sign the 
> >signedAttrs
> >> >> >with "RSA-SHA1" ? How about PSS ? About about the general case ?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Now, in case 2, we have both a hash function defined in
> >> >"digestAlgorithm"
> >> >> >and a hash function (implicitely defined) in "signatureAlgorithm"
> >> >> >(except for the special "rsaEncryption" identifier).
> >> >> >
> >> >> >In that case, is it authorized to have a _different_ hash function
> >> >> >in digestAlgorithm and signatureAlgorithm ? And if so, how to 
> >interpret
> >> >> >it ? Assuming I have MD5 for the digest and RSA-SHA1
> >> >> >for the signature, should I interpret it as a RSA-MD5 signature ?
> >> >> >As a RSA-SHA1 signature ? Or should I consider the CMS as invalid ?
> >> >> >Is there a general rule ?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Thank you very much for your clarifications.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Regards,
> >> >> >
> >> >> >--
> >> >> >Julien Stern
> >> >>
> >>
> 



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To: "Julien Stern" <julien.stern@cryptolog.com>, ietf-smime@imc.org
From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: Re: Questions on digest and signature algorithm identifiers in CMS
In-Reply-To: <20070125090319.GQ4036@mars.cry.pto>
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I think it is clear that they SHOULD be the same.  That is, without a 
really good reason, use the same one-way hash function in both 
places.  I do not know of any case in the real world where they are different.

Russ


At 04:03 AM 1/25/2007, Julien Stern wrote:

>On Wed, Jan 24, 2007 at 07:40:40PM -0500, Russ Housley wrote:
> > Neither of them seem right to me.  Please review section 3 of RFC 3370.
>
>Russ,
>
>section 3 of RFC3370 is silent on this (and so it 3852 actually).
>RFC3370 says that
>
>   "CMS implementations MAY support RSA (PKCS#1 v1.5) signature value
>   algorithm identifiers that specify both the RSA (PKCS #1 v1.5)
>   signature algorithm and the message digest algorithm."
>
>But it does not say what to include in the digestAlgorithm in that case.
>And it seems that RFC3852 and RRFC4056 have different views on this:
>
>RFC3852 says (page 13):
>
>   "digestAlgorithm identifies the message digest algorithm, and any
>   associated parameters, used by the signer.  The message digest is
>   computed on either the content being signed or the content
>   together with the signed attributes using the process
>   described in section 5.4."
>
>   ==> This seems to imply that __THE SAME__ digest must be used for
>       content and signed attributes
>
>But RFC4056 says (page 3):
>
>   "The same one-way hash function SHOULD be used for computing the
>   message digest on both the eContent and the signedAttributes value
>   if signedAttributes exist."
>
>   ==> This seems to imply that __DIFFERENT__ digests may be used for
>       content and signed attributes
>
>I was simply wondering which RFC was correct.
>
>Regards,
>
>--
>Julien
>
> > Russ
> >
> > At 12:53 PM 1/19/2007, Julien Stern wrote:
> >
> > >On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 12:08:29PM -0500, Russ Housley wrote:
> > >> Julien:
> > >>
> > >> Does the examples document (RFC 4134) help answer your questions?
> > >
> > >Russ,
> > >
> > >unfortunately, they do not. As far as I have seen, they use either
> > >'sha1' as the digestAlgorithm and 'dsaWithSha1' as the signature
> > >algorithm or 'sha1' as the digestAlgorithm and 'rsaEncryption' as
> > >the signature algorithm.
> > >
> > >So either there is the "magic" OID rsaEncryption, which is not a
> > >real signature OID, or the hash function defined in 'dsaWithSha1'
> > >matches 'sha1'.
> > >
> > >To present my question is a possibly more constructive way,
> > >please find below two snippets of what could be clarifications
> > >to CMS signatures from my humble point of view.
> > >
> > >The list could then tell me which snippet is the "correct" one,
> > >and decide whether it could be regarded as a worthwhile addition
> > >to one of the WG document or not.
> > >
> > >Regards,
> > >
> > >--
> > >Julien
> > >
> > >Possible clarification 1:
> > >-------------------------
> > >
> > >The signatureAlgorithm field in SignerInfo should be interpreted
> > >in a special way inside CMS. It may either contain a fully-fledged
> > >signature algorithm, or the special OID rsaEncryption.
> > >
> > >When it contains a fully-fledged algorithm, the digestAlgorithm
> > >MUST be coherent with the digest used in the signatureAlgorithm
> > >(e.g. if the signature algorithm is RSA with SHA-1, the digestAlgorithm
> > >MUST be SHA-1, otherwise the verification fails).
> > >
> > >When it contains the special OID rsaEncryption, the full signature
> > >algorithm is defined by looking the digestAlgorithm and will
> > >be an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with the hash function specified
> > >in digestAlgorithm.
> > >
> > >
> > >Possible clarification 2:
> > >-------------------------
> > >
> > >The signatureAlgorithm field in SignerInfo should be interpreted
> > >in a special way inside CMS. It may either contain a fully-fledged
> > >signature algorithm, or the special OID rsaEncryption and should be
> > >interpreted differently depending on whether signedAttrs are present
> > >or not.
> > >
> > >When signedAttrs are present and a fully-fledged signatureAlgorithm
> > >is present, the digestAlgorithm is only used to hash the content,
> > >and the fully-fledged algorithm is used to sign the signedAttrs.
> > >Therefore, it is possible to have MD5 as the digestAlgorithm
> > >and RSA with SHA-1 as the signature algorithm.
> > >
> > >When the signedAttrs are present and the special OID rsaEncryption
> > >is present, the digestAlgorithm is used to hash the content,
> > >and an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with the hash function specified in
> > >digestAlgorithm is used to sign the signedAttrs.
> > >
> > >When signedAttrs are not present and a fully-fledged signatureAlgorithm
> > >is present, the digestAlgorithm MUST be coherent with the digest used
> > >in the signatureAlgorithm (e.g. if the signature algorithm is RSA with
> > >SHA-1, the digestAlgorithm MUST be SHA-1, otherwise the verification
> > >fails).
> > >
> > >Finally, when signedAttrs are not present and the special OID 
> rsaEncryption
> > >is present, the full signature algorithm on the content is defined by
> > >looking the digestAlgorithm and will be an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with the
> > >hash function specified in digestAlgorithm.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> Russ
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> >Folks,
> > >> >
> > >> >I have a few questions regarding the interpretation of the algorithm
> > >> >identifiers used in CMS in the SignerInfo structure.
> > >> >
> > >> >SignerInfo ::= SEQUENCE {
> > >> >        version CMSVersion,
> > >> >        sid SignerIdentifier,
> > >> >        digestAlgorithm DigestAlgorithmIdentifier,
> > >> >        signedAttrs [0] IMPLICIT SignedAttributes OPTIONAL,
> > >> >        signatureAlgorithm SignatureAlgorithmIdentifier,
> > >> >        signature SignatureValue,
> > >> >        unsignedAttrs [1] IMPLICIT UnsignedAttributes OPTIONAL }
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >This structure includes both a digestAlgorithm and a 
> signatureAlgorithm,
> > >> >and there are two cases: either signedAttrs are present or not.
> > >> >
> > >> >Let us first look at case 1, signedAttrs are present.
> > >> >In that case, we hash the content with the "digestAlgorithm",
> > >> >and then compute the signature on the DER of signedAttrs with
> > >> >"signatureAlgorithm".
> > >> >
> > >> >My first question is: is it authorized to have a _different_
> > >> >hash function is the digestAlgorithm and the signatureAlgorithm ?
> > >> >For instance, can I hash the content with MD5 and sign the signedAttrs
> > >> >with "RSA-SHA1" ? How about PSS ? About about the general case ?
> > >> >
> > >> >Now, in case 2, we have both a hash function defined in
> > >"digestAlgorithm"
> > >> >and a hash function (implicitely defined) in "signatureAlgorithm"
> > >> >(except for the special "rsaEncryption" identifier).
> > >> >
> > >> >In that case, is it authorized to have a _different_ hash function
> > >> >in digestAlgorithm and signatureAlgorithm ? And if so, how to interpret
> > >> >it ? Assuming I have MD5 for the digest and RSA-SHA1
> > >> >for the signature, should I interpret it as a RSA-MD5 signature ?
> > >> >As a RSA-SHA1 signature ? Or should I consider the CMS as invalid ?
> > >> >Is there a general rule ?
> > >> >
> > >> >Thank you very much for your clarifications.
> > >> >
> > >> >Regards,
> > >> >
> > >> >--
> > >> >Julien Stern
> > >>
> >



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From: "Julien Stern" <julien.stern@cryptolog.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:03:19 +0100
To: ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: Re: Questions on digest and signature algorithm identifiers in CMS
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On Wed, Jan 24, 2007 at 07:40:40PM -0500, Russ Housley wrote:
> Neither of them seem right to me.  Please review section 3 of RFC 3370.

Russ,

section 3 of RFC3370 is silent on this (and so it 3852 actually).
RFC3370 says that

  "CMS implementations MAY support RSA (PKCS#1 v1.5) signature value
  algorithm identifiers that specify both the RSA (PKCS #1 v1.5)
  signature algorithm and the message digest algorithm."

But it does not say what to include in the digestAlgorithm in that case.
And it seems that RFC3852 and RRFC4056 have different views on this:

RFC3852 says (page 13):

  "digestAlgorithm identifies the message digest algorithm, and any
  associated parameters, used by the signer.  The message digest is
  computed on either the content being signed or the content
  together with the signed attributes using the process
  described in section 5.4."

  ==> This seems to imply that __THE SAME__ digest must be used for
      content and signed attributes

But RFC4056 says (page 3):

  "The same one-way hash function SHOULD be used for computing the
  message digest on both the eContent and the signedAttributes value
  if signedAttributes exist."

  ==> This seems to imply that __DIFFERENT__ digests may be used for
      content and signed attributes

I was simply wondering which RFC was correct.

Regards,

--
Julien

> Russ
> 
> At 12:53 PM 1/19/2007, Julien Stern wrote:
> 
> >On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 12:08:29PM -0500, Russ Housley wrote:
> >> Julien:
> >>
> >> Does the examples document (RFC 4134) help answer your questions?
> >
> >Russ,
> >
> >unfortunately, they do not. As far as I have seen, they use either
> >'sha1' as the digestAlgorithm and 'dsaWithSha1' as the signature
> >algorithm or 'sha1' as the digestAlgorithm and 'rsaEncryption' as
> >the signature algorithm.
> >
> >So either there is the "magic" OID rsaEncryption, which is not a
> >real signature OID, or the hash function defined in 'dsaWithSha1'
> >matches 'sha1'.
> >
> >To present my question is a possibly more constructive way,
> >please find below two snippets of what could be clarifications
> >to CMS signatures from my humble point of view.
> >
> >The list could then tell me which snippet is the "correct" one,
> >and decide whether it could be regarded as a worthwhile addition
> >to one of the WG document or not.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >--
> >Julien
> >
> >Possible clarification 1:
> >-------------------------
> >
> >The signatureAlgorithm field in SignerInfo should be interpreted
> >in a special way inside CMS. It may either contain a fully-fledged
> >signature algorithm, or the special OID rsaEncryption.
> >
> >When it contains a fully-fledged algorithm, the digestAlgorithm
> >MUST be coherent with the digest used in the signatureAlgorithm
> >(e.g. if the signature algorithm is RSA with SHA-1, the digestAlgorithm
> >MUST be SHA-1, otherwise the verification fails).
> >
> >When it contains the special OID rsaEncryption, the full signature
> >algorithm is defined by looking the digestAlgorithm and will
> >be an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with the hash function specified
> >in digestAlgorithm.
> >
> >
> >Possible clarification 2:
> >-------------------------
> >
> >The signatureAlgorithm field in SignerInfo should be interpreted
> >in a special way inside CMS. It may either contain a fully-fledged
> >signature algorithm, or the special OID rsaEncryption and should be
> >interpreted differently depending on whether signedAttrs are present
> >or not.
> >
> >When signedAttrs are present and a fully-fledged signatureAlgorithm
> >is present, the digestAlgorithm is only used to hash the content,
> >and the fully-fledged algorithm is used to sign the signedAttrs.
> >Therefore, it is possible to have MD5 as the digestAlgorithm
> >and RSA with SHA-1 as the signature algorithm.
> >
> >When the signedAttrs are present and the special OID rsaEncryption
> >is present, the digestAlgorithm is used to hash the content,
> >and an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with the hash function specified in
> >digestAlgorithm is used to sign the signedAttrs.
> >
> >When signedAttrs are not present and a fully-fledged signatureAlgorithm
> >is present, the digestAlgorithm MUST be coherent with the digest used
> >in the signatureAlgorithm (e.g. if the signature algorithm is RSA with
> >SHA-1, the digestAlgorithm MUST be SHA-1, otherwise the verification 
> >fails).
> >
> >Finally, when signedAttrs are not present and the special OID rsaEncryption
> >is present, the full signature algorithm on the content is defined by
> >looking the digestAlgorithm and will be an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with the
> >hash function specified in digestAlgorithm.
> >
> >
> >
> >> Russ
> >>
> >>
> >> >Folks,
> >> >
> >> >I have a few questions regarding the interpretation of the algorithm
> >> >identifiers used in CMS in the SignerInfo structure.
> >> >
> >> >SignerInfo ::= SEQUENCE {
> >> >        version CMSVersion,
> >> >        sid SignerIdentifier,
> >> >        digestAlgorithm DigestAlgorithmIdentifier,
> >> >        signedAttrs [0] IMPLICIT SignedAttributes OPTIONAL,
> >> >        signatureAlgorithm SignatureAlgorithmIdentifier,
> >> >        signature SignatureValue,
> >> >        unsignedAttrs [1] IMPLICIT UnsignedAttributes OPTIONAL }
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >This structure includes both a digestAlgorithm and a signatureAlgorithm,
> >> >and there are two cases: either signedAttrs are present or not.
> >> >
> >> >Let us first look at case 1, signedAttrs are present.
> >> >In that case, we hash the content with the "digestAlgorithm",
> >> >and then compute the signature on the DER of signedAttrs with
> >> >"signatureAlgorithm".
> >> >
> >> >My first question is: is it authorized to have a _different_
> >> >hash function is the digestAlgorithm and the signatureAlgorithm ?
> >> >For instance, can I hash the content with MD5 and sign the signedAttrs
> >> >with "RSA-SHA1" ? How about PSS ? About about the general case ?
> >> >
> >> >Now, in case 2, we have both a hash function defined in 
> >"digestAlgorithm"
> >> >and a hash function (implicitely defined) in "signatureAlgorithm"
> >> >(except for the special "rsaEncryption" identifier).
> >> >
> >> >In that case, is it authorized to have a _different_ hash function
> >> >in digestAlgorithm and signatureAlgorithm ? And if so, how to interpret
> >> >it ? Assuming I have MD5 for the digest and RSA-SHA1
> >> >for the signature, should I interpret it as a RSA-MD5 signature ?
> >> >As a RSA-SHA1 signature ? Or should I consider the CMS as invalid ?
> >> >Is there a general rule ?
> >> >
> >> >Thank you very much for your clarifications.
> >> >
> >> >Regards,
> >> >
> >> >--
> >> >Julien Stern
> >>
> 



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Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 19:40:40 -0500
To: "Julien Stern" <julien.stern@cryptolog.com>, ietf-smime@imc.org
From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: Re: Questions on digest and signature algorithm identifiers in CMS
In-Reply-To: <20070119175315.GU4036@mars.cry.pto>
References: <20070119100021.GN4036@mars.cry.pto> <7.0.0.16.2.20070119120707.040c3e10@vigilsec.com> <20070119175315.GU4036@mars.cry.pto>
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Neither of them seem right to me.  Please review section 3 of RFC 3370.

Russ


At 12:53 PM 1/19/2007, Julien Stern wrote:

>On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 12:08:29PM -0500, Russ Housley wrote:
> > Julien:
> >
> > Does the examples document (RFC 4134) help answer your questions?
>
>Russ,
>
>unfortunately, they do not. As far as I have seen, they use either
>'sha1' as the digestAlgorithm and 'dsaWithSha1' as the signature
>algorithm or 'sha1' as the digestAlgorithm and 'rsaEncryption' as
>the signature algorithm.
>
>So either there is the "magic" OID rsaEncryption, which is not a
>real signature OID, or the hash function defined in 'dsaWithSha1'
>matches 'sha1'.
>
>To present my question is a possibly more constructive way,
>please find below two snippets of what could be clarifications
>to CMS signatures from my humble point of view.
>
>The list could then tell me which snippet is the "correct" one,
>and decide whether it could be regarded as a worthwhile addition
>to one of the WG document or not.
>
>Regards,
>
>--
>Julien
>
>Possible clarification 1:
>-------------------------
>
>The signatureAlgorithm field in SignerInfo should be interpreted
>in a special way inside CMS. It may either contain a fully-fledged
>signature algorithm, or the special OID rsaEncryption.
>
>When it contains a fully-fledged algorithm, the digestAlgorithm
>MUST be coherent with the digest used in the signatureAlgorithm
>(e.g. if the signature algorithm is RSA with SHA-1, the digestAlgorithm
>MUST be SHA-1, otherwise the verification fails).
>
>When it contains the special OID rsaEncryption, the full signature
>algorithm is defined by looking the digestAlgorithm and will
>be an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with the hash function specified
>in digestAlgorithm.
>
>
>Possible clarification 2:
>-------------------------
>
>The signatureAlgorithm field in SignerInfo should be interpreted
>in a special way inside CMS. It may either contain a fully-fledged
>signature algorithm, or the special OID rsaEncryption and should be
>interpreted differently depending on whether signedAttrs are present
>or not.
>
>When signedAttrs are present and a fully-fledged signatureAlgorithm
>is present, the digestAlgorithm is only used to hash the content,
>and the fully-fledged algorithm is used to sign the signedAttrs.
>Therefore, it is possible to have MD5 as the digestAlgorithm
>and RSA with SHA-1 as the signature algorithm.
>
>When the signedAttrs are present and the special OID rsaEncryption
>is present, the digestAlgorithm is used to hash the content,
>and an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with the hash function specified in
>digestAlgorithm is used to sign the signedAttrs.
>
>When signedAttrs are not present and a fully-fledged signatureAlgorithm
>is present, the digestAlgorithm MUST be coherent with the digest used
>in the signatureAlgorithm (e.g. if the signature algorithm is RSA with
>SHA-1, the digestAlgorithm MUST be SHA-1, otherwise the verification fails).
>
>Finally, when signedAttrs are not present and the special OID rsaEncryption
>is present, the full signature algorithm on the content is defined by
>looking the digestAlgorithm and will be an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with the
>hash function specified in digestAlgorithm.
>
>
>
> > Russ
> >
> >
> > >Folks,
> > >
> > >I have a few questions regarding the interpretation of the algorithm
> > >identifiers used in CMS in the SignerInfo structure.
> > >
> > >SignerInfo ::= SEQUENCE {
> > >        version CMSVersion,
> > >        sid SignerIdentifier,
> > >        digestAlgorithm DigestAlgorithmIdentifier,
> > >        signedAttrs [0] IMPLICIT SignedAttributes OPTIONAL,
> > >        signatureAlgorithm SignatureAlgorithmIdentifier,
> > >        signature SignatureValue,
> > >        unsignedAttrs [1] IMPLICIT UnsignedAttributes OPTIONAL }
> > >
> > >
> > >This structure includes both a digestAlgorithm and a signatureAlgorithm,
> > >and there are two cases: either signedAttrs are present or not.
> > >
> > >Let us first look at case 1, signedAttrs are present.
> > >In that case, we hash the content with the "digestAlgorithm",
> > >and then compute the signature on the DER of signedAttrs with
> > >"signatureAlgorithm".
> > >
> > >My first question is: is it authorized to have a _different_
> > >hash function is the digestAlgorithm and the signatureAlgorithm ?
> > >For instance, can I hash the content with MD5 and sign the signedAttrs
> > >with "RSA-SHA1" ? How about PSS ? About about the general case ?
> > >
> > >Now, in case 2, we have both a hash function defined in "digestAlgorithm"
> > >and a hash function (implicitely defined) in "signatureAlgorithm"
> > >(except for the special "rsaEncryption" identifier).
> > >
> > >In that case, is it authorized to have a _different_ hash function
> > >in digestAlgorithm and signatureAlgorithm ? And if so, how to interpret
> > >it ? Assuming I have MD5 for the digest and RSA-SHA1
> > >for the signature, should I interpret it as a RSA-MD5 signature ?
> > >As a RSA-SHA1 signature ? Or should I consider the CMS as invalid ?
> > >Is there a general rule ?
> > >
> > >Thank you very much for your clarifications.
> > >
> > >Regards,
> > >
> > >--
> > >Julien Stern
> >



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Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 18:25:23 -0800
To: "Kemp, David P." <DPKemp@missi.ncsc.mil>, ietf-smime@imc.org
From: Christine Karman <christine@izecom.com>
Subject: RE: Goal for S/MIME 2007?
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At 10:00 AM 1/22/2007, Kemp, David P. wrote:

>I agree that this won't happen anytime soon.  TLS server certs are
>widely deployed now, unlike client certs.

TLS does not provide the level of protection that server-to-server 
S/MIME tunneling does. E.g, what happens if a server that uses TLS is 
temporarily unavailable and the backup server (or the backup thereof) 
doesn't have TLS? Will your mail server store all messages until a 
TLS server is available? Do system administrators manually check 
validity of all TLS certs, like when one expires and a new one is 
installed? I doubt it.

>S/MIME encryption
>to server certs could be made usable, but what is the business
>case?  Encryption might as well be done at the transport layer,
>with data at rest protection (keeping those credit card numbers
>on laptops secret) being a local matter.  There is a far stronger
>case to be made for S/MIME signing than for S/MIME encryption.

I couldn't agree more. That's what we see in the market. However, 
more wide spread use of S/MIME signing creates a business case for 
S/MIME encryption, as more and more certs are out there to be used.

dagdag
Christine

-- 
Izecom BV
Secure e-mail and digital signatures
www.izecom.com

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--{FFBF80AD-9FB9-4ADA-9EF8-1AEDE25D4F9A}--



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From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Peter Gutmann)
To: housley@vigilsec.com, ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: Re: AuthEnvelopedData Attributes
In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20070122081920.0400f0f0@vigilsec.com>
Message-Id: <E1H9An7-0004R1-00@medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 14:49:41 +1300
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Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com> writes:

>Peter suggesting putting the attributes in a SEQUENCE instead of a SET.
>> >>   attributes SEQUENCE OF Attribute
>> >
>> >I wish we had done this in 1999.  I feel that we missed the opportunity.  It
>> >was not done at that time because people wanted to preserve backward
>> >compatibility.  The pressure to keep the current encoding will be even
>> >stronger today.
>>
>>I can understand this for existing content-types, but since AuthEnvelopedData
>>is a new content type for which there's no backwards compatibility, it'd be an
>>quick and easy fix.
>
>I wonder if people have put all of the attribute handling in a common library
>routine.  If so, then making this change would be a real pain rather than a
>help.  Please let me know.

Since I started this I'll give my $0.02 worth: My code does have a common
routine to do this, but it's something like:

  write:
    pre-encode attributes to get their sort order;
    sort the attributes;
    write the attributes;

(this hides a lot of detail, there's a significant amount of code to handle
the first two steps, while the last one is just a loop to write each one).  So
moving to a SEQUENCE would allow removing a large chunk of code.  Atually what
I'd probably do is change a function pointer to a write loop for new content
types and leave it pointing to the mass of code for existing content types.

(Two other notes, as the above text mentions I wasn't necessarily advocating
changing existing content-types, merely switching new ones where there's
nothing to be backwards-compatible with.  In addition this doesn't just affect
implementations, it affects interoperability because it's painful to get it
right.  In a number of cases implementors don't do it, or don't even know they
have to do it.  I know there are a number of implementations that don't
enforce the DER rules for SET OF (since there's no real point in doing it),
which leads to nasty surprises the first time they run into one that does.
Making it a plain SEQUENCE would solve all of these problems in one go).

Peter.



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Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 08:23:14 -0500
To: ietf-smime@imc.org
From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: AuthEnvelopedData Attributes
In-Reply-To: <E1H8bK6-0007KA-00@medusa01.cs.auckland.ac.nz>
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Peter Gutmann and I have been discussion several aspects of the 
Internet-Draft.  I'd like comments from everyone on one point that has come up.

Peter suggesting putting the attributes in a SEQUENCE instead of a SET.

> >>   attributes SEQUENCE OF Attribute
> >
> >I wish we had done this in 1999.  I feel that we missed the opportunity.  It
> >was not done at that time because people wanted to preserve backward
> >compatibility.  The pressure to keep the current encoding will be even
> >stronger today.
>
>I can understand this for existing content-types, but since AuthEnvelopedData
>is a new content type for which there's no backwards compatibility, it'd be an
>quick and easy fix.

I wonder if people have put all of the attribute handling in a common 
library routine.  If so, then making this change would be a real pain 
rather than a help.  Please let me know.

Russ



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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
directories.
This draft is a work item of the S/MIME Mail Security Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Using AES-CCM and AES-GCM Authenticated Encryption in the Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS)
	Author(s)	: R. Housley
	Filename	: draft-ietf-smime-cms-aes-ccm-and-gcm-00.txt
	Pages		: 11
	Date		: 2007-1-22
	
   This document specifies the conventions for using the AES-CCM and the
   AES-GCM authenticated encryption algorithms with the Cryptographic
   Message Syntax (CMS) authenticated-enveloped-data content type.


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-----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of Luther Martin [martin@voltage.com]

> The US Department of Defense has issued client certs certs to
> roughly 5 million users, and they still can't be used for much.
> If the DOD ever gets the $5 billion or so that they've asked for
> to PKI-enable applications, these certs may be put to use, but
> that funding doesn't seem to be coming any time soon.

They can be used for signing (as with this message), and can be
used to access those services (such as Defense Knowledge Online)
that have been PK enabled.  Authenticated access to services is
a critical issue for DoD, and it will get funded.

>>>- You cannot send an encrypted e-mail to the IRS and you
>>> probably never will
>> You want to bet? If IRS's in other countries can do it, why wouldn't
>> the IRS in the US do it in the near or not so near future?
> I don't see this happening any time soon. The dead horse of usability
> is now probably sufficiently beaten by my comments above, so I
> won't further defile the body. 

I agree that this won't happen anytime soon.  TLS server certs are
widely deployed now, unlike client certs.  S/MIME encryption
to server certs could be made usable, but what is the business
case?  Encryption might as well be done at the transport layer,
with data at rest protection (keeping those credit card numbers
on laptops secret) being a local matter.  There is a far stronger
case to be made for S/MIME signing than for S/MIME encryption.

> Instead of issuing certs to people, it might actually be cheaper
> for the IRS to use its FedEx account number as a sort of public
> key that lets people get documents to them in a secure way,
> just without using the S/MIME standard.

Huh???  You've totally lost me there.  www.irs.gov already has
a real public key, and S/MIME applications already exist.  Can you
explain the cryptographic mechanism for turning a public value
(such as a FedEx account #) into a "public key" of some sort
usable for encryption without involving a third party (e.g. a
CA or IBE key server - I see your email address is Voltage)?
How in the world would it be cheaper to develop a new
cryptographic mechanism, propose and standardize the data
formats and protocols to support it, develop and deploy
new client and server applications, and stand up new third
party authentication servers?  What makes message encryption
using S/MIME any more expensive than message encryption using
any possible replacement, including IBE?

>>>- e-mail encryption is incompatible with many organizations'
>>> internal policies
>> What are you referring to? We see the opposite being true in
>> every company we talk to.
>
>Most businesses like to filter e-mail for spam and other annoyances,
> which is fairly difficult to do with encrypted e-mail.

Anders used to talk quite a bit about domain encryption, and
RFC 3183, though experimental, was completed five years ago.
There's nothing intrinsically difficult about filtering
encrypted email.  But with online services becoming ubiquitous
on the Internet, the need for end-to-end message encryption
in a store-and-forward environment is shrinking.  For many
applications it is feasible to use TLS end-to-end instead.


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Subject: RE: Goal for S/MIME 2007?
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 20:29:51 -0800
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From: "Luther Martin" <martin@voltage.com>
To: "Christine Karman" <christine@izecom.com>, <ietf-smime@imc.org>
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I'm more in agreement with Anders on this issue than not. In particular:
 
>>- Client certificates are [still] uncommon

>You think so? In some countries in Europe, everyone has one through a
>chip in their identity card. In some countries, every medical
>professional has several of them. Some Fortune-100 companies provide
>them to every employee.

I really don't see client certificates being used much. My Amex Blue card has a cert on it. Maybe even more that one. But I can do exactly two things with these certs: Jack and squat. So the existence of certs isn't necessarily an indicator of their existence in a useful way.
 
The US Department of Defense has issued client certs certs to roughly 5 million users, and they still can't be used for much. If the DOD ever gets the $5 billion or so that they've asked for to PKI-enable applications, these certs may be put to use, but that funding doesn't seem to be coming any time soon. The US government has spent over $1 billion on PKI so far, and has very little to show for it. I understand the political need to keep PKI engineers at government contractors employed, but $1 billion really seems like a lot of money. 
 
The cost of using client certs can be painfully high. One study that I read estimated that the TCO for using a cert for e-mail was $816 per user per year. Ouch. That kind of cost is usually a bit tough to justify. Maybe that's why certs are really not that popular, at least as we're probably talking about here. If you use Windows, you may be using a cert without even knowing it, for example, but I don't think that the intent of the original comments.

>>- Encryption at the desktop by consumers does not work

>What makes you think so?
 
I believe this one also. Studies of the US DOD PKI have shown that the vast majority of key recovery is done because of lost or forgotten passwords. Without this capability, the home user is a bit stuck. With it, you've got significant support costs. 
 
Usability of encryption has gotten better but it's still not very good. The famous "Why Johnny Can't Encrypt" was followed by the more recent (2006, IIRC) "Why Johnny Still Can't Encrypt," that showed that usability still has a long way to go. Poor usability equals high support costs, which in turn means no business case to use the technology. 

>>- Trusted third-parties is the norm (from your employer to Google)
>>- You cannot send an encrypted e-mail to the IRS and you probably never will

>You want to bet? If IRS's in other countries can do it, why wouldn't
>the IRS in the US do it in the near or not so near future?
 
I don't see this happening any time soon. The dead horse of usability is now probably sufficiently beaten by my comments above, so I won't further defile the body. 
 
Instead of issuing certs to people, it might actually be cheaper for the IRS to use its FedEx account number as a sort of public key that lets people get documents to them in a secure way, just without using the S/MIME standard. 

>>- e-mail encryption is incompatible with many organizations' internal policies

>What are you referring to? We see the opposite being true in every
>company we talk to.

Most businesses like to filter e-mail for spam and other annoyances, which is fairly difficult to do with encrypted e-mail. That's a fairly common request. 

 

 





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>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:anders.rundgren@telia.com>Anders Rundgren
>To: <mailto:ietf-smime@imc.org>ietf-smime@imc.org
>Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 10:36
>Subject: Goal for S/MIME 2007?
>
>- Client certificates are [still] uncommon

You think so? In some countries in Europe, everyone has one through a 
chip in their identity card. In some countries, every medical 
professional has several of them. Some Fortune-100 companies provide 
them to every employee.

>- Encryption at the desktop by consumers does not work

What makes you think so?

>- Security administrators want central policy handling

They already have that because most commercial products in this area 
provide them with central policy management.

>- Trusted third-parties is the norm (from your employer to Google)
>- You cannot send an encrypted e-mail to the IRS and you probably never will

You want to bet? If IRS's in other countries can do it, why wouldn't 
the IRS in the US do it in the near or not so near future?

>- e-mail encryption is incompatible with many organizations' internal policies

What are you referring to? We see the opposite being true in every 
company we talk to.

>- Security should be transparent, default, and non-intrusive

You're right.

Because of SOX, most companies want to secure their email. They want 
filtering, encryption, signing. The issue is, will they use S/MIME or 
will they use some non-standard algorithm. In Europe, it's mostly 
S/MIME. So I don't see your point. S/MIME will be the dominant 
algorithm for encrypting and signing of email, both in the US and elsewhere.
Do you sign your email with your trusted certificate, assuming you 
have several?

Christine


-- 
Izecom BV
Secure e-mail and digital signatures
www.izecom.com

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From: "Anders Rundgren" <anders.rundgren@telia.com>
To: <ietf-smime@imc.org>
References: <005f01c72675$c62d86d0$82c5a8c0@arport2v>
Subject: Goal for S/MIME 2007?
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 09:51:16 +0100
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Still waiting for a response...

----- Original Message -----=20
From: Anders Rundgren=20
To: ietf-smime@imc.org=20
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 10:36
Subject: Goal for S/MIME 2007?


Today I concluded that my mail-box with 120 fresh messages constituted =
of about 110 messages where the sender address is either falsified, or =
is coming through a hijacked computer.

In my opinion S/MIME is the primary culprit for this unbearable =
situation.

That Windows have showed some weaknesses with respect to virus attacks =
is undoubtedly true, but viruses would also have had a much less impact =
if we have had a useful e-mail security architecture.  The same goes for =
phishing, not to mention spam.

A do believe that the designers of S/MIME did what they could back in =
the 90'ties.  However, now when we know better [*], shouldn't these guys =
who indirectly contribute to an annual waste of BILLIONS of good working =
hours from the Internet community rather try to create a system that to =
some extent compensates for the mistakes done in the past?

DKIM is a step in the right direction but it does not address =
confidentiality.  That DKIM was designed to support people who want to =
run their own mail-servers but cannot afford a domain-certificate is =
also a bit off since these entities represent at most 0.1% of today's =
Internet users.

Anders Rundgren

*]
- Client certificates are [still] uncommon
- Encryption at the desktop by consumers does not work
- Security administrators want central policy handling
- Trusted third-parties is the norm (from your employer to Google)
- You cannot send an encrypted e-mail to the IRS and you probably never =
will
- e-mail encryption is incompatible with many organizations' internal =
policies
- Security should be transparent, default, and non-intrusive
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Still waiting for a =
response...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=20
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A=20
title=3Danders.rundgren@telia.com =
href=3D"mailto:anders.rundgren@telia.com">Anders=20
Rundgren</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=3Dietf-smime@imc.org=20
href=3D"mailto:ietf-smime@imc.org">ietf-smime@imc.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, December 23, 2006 10:36</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Goal for S/MIME 2007?</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Today I concluded that my =
mail-box&nbsp;with 120=20
fresh messages constituted of about&nbsp;110 messages where the sender =
address=20
is either falsified, or is coming through a hijacked =
computer.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In my opinion S/MIME&nbsp;is the =
primary culprit=20
for this unbearable situation.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>That Windows have showed some =
weaknesses with=20
respect to virus attacks&nbsp;is undoubtedly true, but viruses would =
also have=20
had a much less impact if we have had a useful e-mail security=20
architecture.&nbsp; The same goes for phishing, not to mention=20
spam.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>A do believe that the designers of S/MIME did what they could back =
in the=20
90'ties.&nbsp; However, now when we know better [*], shouldn't these =
guys who=20
indirectly contribute to an annual waste of&nbsp;BILLIONS of =
good&nbsp;working=20
hours from the Internet community rather&nbsp;try to create a system =
that to=20
some extent compensates for the mistakes done&nbsp;in the past?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>DKIM is a step in the right direction&nbsp;but it does not address=20
confidentiality.&nbsp; That DKIM&nbsp;was designed to support people who =
want to=20
run their own mail-servers but cannot afford a domain-certificate is =
also a bit=20
off since these entities represent at most 0.1% of today's Internet=20
users.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Anders Rundgren</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>*]</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>-&nbsp;Client certificates are [still]=20
uncommon</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- Encryption&nbsp;at the desktop =
by&nbsp;consumers=20
does not work</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- Security administrators want central =
policy=20
handling</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- Trusted third-parties is the norm =
(from your=20
employer to Google)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- You cannot send an encrypted e-mail =
to the IRS=20
and you probably never will</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- e-mail encryption is incompatible =
with=20
many&nbsp;organizations' internal policies</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- Security should be =
transparent,&nbsp;default, and=20
non-intrusive</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Julien Stern" <julien.stern@cryptolog.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 18:53:15 +0100
To: ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: Re: Questions on digest and signature algorithm identifiers in CMS
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On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 12:08:29PM -0500, Russ Housley wrote:
> Julien:
> 
> Does the examples document (RFC 4134) help answer your questions?

Russ,

unfortunately, they do not. As far as I have seen, they use either
'sha1' as the digestAlgorithm and 'dsaWithSha1' as the signature
algorithm or 'sha1' as the digestAlgorithm and 'rsaEncryption' as
the signature algorithm.

So either there is the "magic" OID rsaEncryption, which is not a
real signature OID, or the hash function defined in 'dsaWithSha1'
matches 'sha1'.

To present my question is a possibly more constructive way,
please find below two snippets of what could be clarifications
to CMS signatures from my humble point of view.

The list could then tell me which snippet is the "correct" one,
and decide whether it could be regarded as a worthwhile addition
to one of the WG document or not.

Regards,

--
Julien

Possible clarification 1:
-------------------------

The signatureAlgorithm field in SignerInfo should be interpreted
in a special way inside CMS. It may either contain a fully-fledged
signature algorithm, or the special OID rsaEncryption.

When it contains a fully-fledged algorithm, the digestAlgorithm
MUST be coherent with the digest used in the signatureAlgorithm
(e.g. if the signature algorithm is RSA with SHA-1, the digestAlgorithm
MUST be SHA-1, otherwise the verification fails).

When it contains the special OID rsaEncryption, the full signature
algorithm is defined by looking the digestAlgorithm and will
be an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with the hash function specified
in digestAlgorithm.


Possible clarification 2:
-------------------------

The signatureAlgorithm field in SignerInfo should be interpreted
in a special way inside CMS. It may either contain a fully-fledged
signature algorithm, or the special OID rsaEncryption and should be
interpreted differently depending on whether signedAttrs are present
or not.

When signedAttrs are present and a fully-fledged signatureAlgorithm
is present, the digestAlgorithm is only used to hash the content,
and the fully-fledged algorithm is used to sign the signedAttrs.
Therefore, it is possible to have MD5 as the digestAlgorithm
and RSA with SHA-1 as the signature algorithm.

When the signedAttrs are present and the special OID rsaEncryption
is present, the digestAlgorithm is used to hash the content,
and an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with the hash function specified in
digestAlgorithm is used to sign the signedAttrs.

When signedAttrs are not present and a fully-fledged signatureAlgorithm
is present, the digestAlgorithm MUST be coherent with the digest used
in the signatureAlgorithm (e.g. if the signature algorithm is RSA with
SHA-1, the digestAlgorithm MUST be SHA-1, otherwise the verification fails).

Finally, when signedAttrs are not present and the special OID rsaEncryption
is present, the full signature algorithm on the content is defined by
looking the digestAlgorithm and will be an RSA PKCS1.5 signature with the
hash function specified in digestAlgorithm.



> Russ
> 
> 
> >Folks,
> >
> >I have a few questions regarding the interpretation of the algorithm
> >identifiers used in CMS in the SignerInfo structure.
> >
> >SignerInfo ::= SEQUENCE {
> >        version CMSVersion,
> >        sid SignerIdentifier,
> >        digestAlgorithm DigestAlgorithmIdentifier,
> >        signedAttrs [0] IMPLICIT SignedAttributes OPTIONAL,
> >        signatureAlgorithm SignatureAlgorithmIdentifier,
> >        signature SignatureValue,
> >        unsignedAttrs [1] IMPLICIT UnsignedAttributes OPTIONAL }
> >
> >
> >This structure includes both a digestAlgorithm and a signatureAlgorithm,
> >and there are two cases: either signedAttrs are present or not.
> >
> >Let us first look at case 1, signedAttrs are present.
> >In that case, we hash the content with the "digestAlgorithm",
> >and then compute the signature on the DER of signedAttrs with
> >"signatureAlgorithm".
> >
> >My first question is: is it authorized to have a _different_
> >hash function is the digestAlgorithm and the signatureAlgorithm ?
> >For instance, can I hash the content with MD5 and sign the signedAttrs
> >with "RSA-SHA1" ? How about PSS ? About about the general case ?
> >
> >Now, in case 2, we have both a hash function defined in "digestAlgorithm"
> >and a hash function (implicitely defined) in "signatureAlgorithm"
> >(except for the special "rsaEncryption" identifier).
> >
> >In that case, is it authorized to have a _different_ hash function
> >in digestAlgorithm and signatureAlgorithm ? And if so, how to interpret
> >it ? Assuming I have MD5 for the digest and RSA-SHA1
> >for the signature, should I interpret it as a RSA-MD5 signature ?
> >As a RSA-SHA1 signature ? Or should I consider the CMS as invalid ?
> >Is there a general rule ?
> >
> >Thank you very much for your clarifications.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >--
> >Julien Stern
> 



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To: "Julien Stern" <julien.stern@cryptolog.com>, ietf-smime@imc.org
From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: Re: Questions on digest and signature algorithm identifiers in CMS
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Julien:

Does the examples document (RFC 4134) help answer your questions?

Russ


>Folks,
>
>I have a few questions regarding the interpretation of the algorithm
>identifiers used in CMS in the SignerInfo structure.
>
>SignerInfo ::= SEQUENCE {
>         version CMSVersion,
>         sid SignerIdentifier,
>         digestAlgorithm DigestAlgorithmIdentifier,
>         signedAttrs [0] IMPLICIT SignedAttributes OPTIONAL,
>         signatureAlgorithm SignatureAlgorithmIdentifier,
>         signature SignatureValue,
>         unsignedAttrs [1] IMPLICIT UnsignedAttributes OPTIONAL }
>
>
>This structure includes both a digestAlgorithm and a signatureAlgorithm,
>and there are two cases: either signedAttrs are present or not.
>
>Let us first look at case 1, signedAttrs are present.
>In that case, we hash the content with the "digestAlgorithm",
>and then compute the signature on the DER of signedAttrs with
>"signatureAlgorithm".
>
>My first question is: is it authorized to have a _different_
>hash function is the digestAlgorithm and the signatureAlgorithm ?
>For instance, can I hash the content with MD5 and sign the signedAttrs
>with "RSA-SHA1" ? How about PSS ? About about the general case ?
>
>Now, in case 2, we have both a hash function defined in "digestAlgorithm"
>and a hash function (implicitely defined) in "signatureAlgorithm"
>(except for the special "rsaEncryption" identifier).
>
>In that case, is it authorized to have a _different_ hash function
>in digestAlgorithm and signatureAlgorithm ? And if so, how to interpret
>it ? Assuming I have MD5 for the digest and RSA-SHA1
>for the signature, should I interpret it as a RSA-MD5 signature ?
>As a RSA-SHA1 signature ? Or should I consider the CMS as invalid ?
>Is there a general rule ?
>
>Thank you very much for your clarifications.
>
>Regards,
>
>--
>Julien Stern



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From: "Julien Stern" <julien.stern@cryptolog.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 14:43:55 +0100
To: "ietf-smime@imc.org" <ietf-smime@imc.org>
Subject: Re: Questions on digest and signature algorithm identifiers in CMS
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On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 12:57:12PM +0100, Denis Pinkas wrote:
> 
> Julien,
> 
> On January 9, I addressed this topic on the list, but no one has responded yet.
> Hereafter are some extracts of what I said, where the clarifications you are looking for 
> are addressed in the third pararagraph.

Denis,

thanks for your answer. And my apologies for not having seen your previous
mail. I'm subcribed to the list, but I apparently have missed that one.

Nevertheless, while I agree with you there is a minor clarification needed,
I'm afraid that your text still leaves some things unclear.

You say that if the signatureAlgorithm is sha-1WithRSAEncryption
then the digestAlgorithm must be id-sha1.

I have no specific issue with this rule, but
1) I could not find it anywhere in the current text
2) It contradicts (in spirit) the text from RFC4056, which does
not mandate the use of the same hash function.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
RFC4056:
digestAlgorithms SHOULD contain the one-way hash function used to
compute the message digest on the eContent value.

The same one-way hash function SHOULD be used for computing the
message digest on both the eContent and the signedAttributes
value if signedAttributes exist.

The same one-way hash function MUST be used for computing the message
digest on the signedAttributes and as the hashAlgorithm in the RSA-
PSS-params structure.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

The main problem I see in the current CMS is the fact that two
different techniques can be used for signing/verification (probably
due to legacy interoperability reason, I'm not trying to blame anyone
here :)).

When there are no signedAttrs, the signatureAlgorithm should be
understood as a fake OID, and interpreted differently from the other
RFCs. More precisely, it represents "the part of the signature that you
perform after the hashing". (In theory, that a big problem,
because not all signature algorithms can be expressed as a hash +
some other operations, but in practice, that essentially the case,
so let's live with it).

When there are signed attributes, however, both interpretations become
possible:

- the first one being "we hash the content with digestAlgorithm and then
we hash the signed attributes with the same digestAlgorithm and then
we perform the same half-signing as above".

- The second being: "we hash the content with digestAlgorithm and then
we sign the signedAttrs with the signatureAlgorithm (to be understood
as a _real_ signatureAlgorithm, e.g. including its own hash if it uses
one)."

Apparently, the wording of RFC4056 seem to imply that the second
interpretation should be used. The problem is that RFC4056 is totally
silent about the way to verify when signedAttrs are absent.

RFC3852 is not very verbal regarding the various interpretations,
but I would tend to think it suggests the first one.


Is there a consensus on the list on the correct interpretations ?
Or even better, a quote that clarifies it ?

Regards,

--
Julien Stern



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From: "Denis Pinkas" <denis.pinkas@bull.net>
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Subject: Re: Questions on digest and signature algorithm identifiers in CMS
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Julien,

On January 9, I addressed this topic on the list, but no one has responded yet.
Hereafter are some extracts of what I said, where the clarifications you are looking for 
are addressed in the third pararagraph.

"The current explanations from CMS (in fact from PKCS#7) are far insufficient 
to provide sufficient guidance for a correct verification. This needed to be fixed 
and has been fixed in the first text proposal".

"First replacement:

   A recipient verifies a signature in the following way : 
 
   It must first identify the signer's public key to be used for the 
   verification.  The signer's public key is referenced in the sid 
   value either by an issuer distinguished name along with an 
   issuer-specific serial number or by a subject key identifier that 
   identifies the certificate containing the public key.  If the 
   essCertID signed attribute is present, then the public key 
   contained in the referenced certificate shall be used.  The 
   signer's certificate may be included in the SignedData certificates 
   field.
 
   It must verify that the signatureAlgorithm indicated in the 
   SignerInfo value is compatible with the digestAlgorithm indicated 
   in the SignerInfo value and the algorithm contained in the 
   subjectPublicKeyInfo from the signer’s certificate, e.g. if the 
   signatureAlgorithm is sha-1WithRSAEncryption then the 
   digestAlgorithm must be id-sha1 and the algorithm contained in the 
   subjectPublicKeyInfo must be rsaEncryption. In addition, it must 
   verify that the strength and key size of these algorithms are 
   conformant with its local security policy, otherwise it shall 
   discard the signature.
 
   It must then use the specific digestAlgorithm indicated in the 
   SignerInfo value to compute a digest and the signatureAlgorithm 
   indicated in the SignerInfo value with to verify the signature 
   value, as defined in Section 5.3. 
 
   A given signer may apply more than one signature.  This may be 
   useful in particular when some recipients are unable to process 
   some algorithms during an algorithm migration phase".

Denis

>Folks,
>
>I have a few questions regarding the interpretation of the algorithm
>identifiers used in CMS in the SignerInfo structure.
>
>SignerInfo ::= SEQUENCE {
>	version CMSVersion,
>	sid SignerIdentifier,
>	digestAlgorithm DigestAlgorithmIdentifier,
>	signedAttrs [0] IMPLICIT SignedAttributes OPTIONAL,
>	signatureAlgorithm SignatureAlgorithmIdentifier,
>	signature SignatureValue,
>	unsignedAttrs [1] IMPLICIT UnsignedAttributes OPTIONAL }
>
>
>This structure includes both a digestAlgorithm and a signatureAlgorithm,
>and there are two cases: either signedAttrs are present or not.
>
>Let us first look at case 1, signedAttrs are present.
>In that case, we hash the content with the "digestAlgorithm",
>and then compute the signature on the DER of signedAttrs with
>"signatureAlgorithm".
>
>My first question is: is it authorized to have a _different_
>hash function is the digestAlgorithm and the signatureAlgorithm ?
>For instance, can I hash the content with MD5 and sign the signedAttrs
>with "RSA-SHA1" ? How about PSS ? About about the general case ?
>
>Now, in case 2, we have both a hash function defined in "digestAlgorithm"
>and a hash function (implicitely defined) in "signatureAlgorithm"
>(except for the special "rsaEncryption" identifier).
>
>In that case, is it authorized to have a _different_ hash function
>in digestAlgorithm and signatureAlgorithm ? And if so, how to interpret
>it ? Assuming I have MD5 for the digest and RSA-SHA1
>for the signature, should I interpret it as a RSA-MD5 signature ?
>As a RSA-SHA1 signature ? Or should I consider the CMS as invalid ?
>Is there a general rule ?
>
>Thank you very much for your clarifications.
>
>Regards,
>
>--
>Julien Stern

Denis Pinkas




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To: ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: Questions on digest and signature algorithm identifiers in CMS
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Folks,

I have a few questions regarding the interpretation of the algorithm
identifiers used in CMS in the SignerInfo structure.

SignerInfo ::= SEQUENCE {
	version CMSVersion,
	sid SignerIdentifier,
	digestAlgorithm DigestAlgorithmIdentifier,
	signedAttrs [0] IMPLICIT SignedAttributes OPTIONAL,
	signatureAlgorithm SignatureAlgorithmIdentifier,
	signature SignatureValue,
	unsignedAttrs [1] IMPLICIT UnsignedAttributes OPTIONAL }


This structure includes both a digestAlgorithm and a signatureAlgorithm,
and there are two cases: either signedAttrs are present or not.

Let us first look at case 1, signedAttrs are present.
In that case, we hash the content with the "digestAlgorithm",
and then compute the signature on the DER of signedAttrs with
"signatureAlgorithm".

My first question is: is it authorized to have a _different_
hash function is the digestAlgorithm and the signatureAlgorithm ?
For instance, can I hash the content with MD5 and sign the signedAttrs
with "RSA-SHA1" ? How about PSS ? About about the general case ?

Now, in case 2, we have both a hash function defined in "digestAlgorithm"
and a hash function (implicitely defined) in "signatureAlgorithm"
(except for the special "rsaEncryption" identifier).

In that case, is it authorized to have a _different_ hash function
in digestAlgorithm and signatureAlgorithm ? And if so, how to interpret
it ? Assuming I have MD5 for the digest and RSA-SHA1
for the signature, should I interpret it as a RSA-MD5 signature ?
As a RSA-SHA1 signature ? Or should I consider the CMS as invalid ?
Is there a general rule ?

Thank you very much for your clarifications.

Regards,

--
Julien Stern



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Subject: Last Call: draft-ietf-smime-escertid (ESS Update: Adding CertID  Algorithm Agility) to Proposed Standard 
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The IESG has received a request from the S/MIME Mail Security WG (smime)
to consider the following document:

- 'ESS Update: Adding CertID Algorithm Agility '
   <draft-ietf-smime-escertid-04.txt> as a Proposed Standard

The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits
final comments on this action.  Please send substantive comments to the
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comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please 
retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.

The file can be obtained via
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-smime-escertid-04.txt


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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
directories.
This draft is a work item of the S/MIME Mail Security Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: ESS Update: Adding CertID Algorithm Agility
	Author(s)	: J. Schaad
	Filename	: draft-ietf-smime-escertid-04.txt
	Pages		: 19
	Date		: 2007-1-17
	
In the original Enhanced Security Services for S/MIME document (RFC
   2634), a structure for cryptographically linking the certificate to
   be used in validation with the signature was introduced, this
   structure was hardwired to use SHA-1.  This document allows for the
   structure to have algorithm agility and defines a new attribute for
   this purpose.

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Subject: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 17:03:06 +0100
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Thread-Topic: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd
Thread-Index: Acc5hYz5NAgBpvv/Qy61Kh5xd84cXQAAGWEQ
From: "Tobias Gondrom" <tgondrom@opentext.com>
To: "Denis Pinkas" <denis.pinkas@bull.net>, "Carl Wallace" <CWallace@cygnacom.com>, <ietf-smime@imc.org>
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Denis,

=20

Small comment:=20

I agree with, that ARI and validate is not mature.

I agree that LTAP still needs some improvement for WGLC - though I
believe it is in good shape.

I obviously do not agree with that ERS is not mature.=20

And I totally disagree that ERS cannot be sent alone to the IESG.=20

=20

Concerning the last two disagreements:=20

1. As Carl already pointed out it seems there might be a
misunderstanding of the relationship between ERS and REQS:=20

ERS is definitely not the complete answer to all requirements from REQS,
but fulfils its part. Other things shall be defined by LTAP and some
REQS may even be addressed at a later time (or only by individual
implementations but not by an I-D). (The goal of REQS is to help choose
the right technical solutions and approach by defining the objective
targets for the specifications.)

2. ERS as the data structure for the records is valuable on its own and
has with intent been only loosely coupled with LTAP. So we can progress
ERS. This makes the work of the WG easier and more efficient as we then
can focus on LTAP and ARI and validate (note: the last two are only
intended to be informational).

=20

Thanks, Tobias

=20

=20

________________________________

From: owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org
[mailto:owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Denis Pinkas
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 4:32 PM
To: Carl Wallace; ietf-smime@imc.org
Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org
Subject: Re: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd

=20

Carl,

=20

I will have lo leave the discussion here for a few days, since I need to
attend different meetings.

=20

This leaves you more time to look again at the arguments explained in my
three e-mails
and to my proposal where the new proposed ASN.1 fulfils the LTANS
requirements=20
whereas ERS does not.

=20

I simply reiterate my position:

=20

 - neither ERS, nor LTAP, nor (ERS + LTAP) meet the requirements.=20

 - ERS is not mature.

 - LTAP is not mature.

 - ARI is not mature.

 - validate is not mature.

 - ERS needs major revisions.=20

 - ERS cannot be sent alone to the IESG.

=20

Denis =20

=20

________________________________

inline...

	=20

=09
________________________________


	From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net]=20
	Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 3:27 AM
	To: Carl Wallace; ietf-smime@imc.org
	Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; 'Russ Housley'
	Subject: Re: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan
23 rd

	Carl,

	=20

	ERS + LTAP do not meet the requirements.=20

	[CRW] ERS is currently the focus.  Not LTAP.=20

	=20

	 <snip>=20

	The archival policy, the archival time period and the crypto
maintenance policy are never mentioned.=20

	Since they are currently not part of ERS, they appear nowhere.

	[CRW] "Policy" is cited throughout and is included in the
RequestInformation structure.  "Archival policy" and "crypto maintenance
policy" are not distinguished.  They should be, but not in ERS.

	=20

	It is never mentioned that a response is signed. =20

	=20

	ERS + LTAP contain no signature from a LTA agent.=20

	[CRW] See the following in section 8: "These data are optionally
encapsulated by CMS content types that provide for authentication and/or
confidentiality, e.g.  SignedData or EnvelopedData." =20

	=20

	About the DELETE operation, what is worse is the following
sentence: "Note that this does not mean that=20
	the server does not maintain a trace record of the delete
operation". A trace record would not be sufficient.=20

	Deletion of an archive shall normally not happen, since the LTA
is trusted to keep the data until the end of=20

	the archive period. A signed permission of deletion, by the
owner of the data shall be given, before deletion=20

	can occur. This is mentioned nowhere in the document.

	=20

	[CRW] This should be added.

	=20

	Once again, the current set of documents does not meet the
requirements.

	=20

	I guess you reacted too quickly to my proposal from yesterday
and you should pay more attention to it.=20

	[CRW] Most of your suggestions apply to a different document, in
my opinion.  I do think you were correct w.r.t. inclusion of an
indication of policy in the ArchiveTimeStamp layer.  Towards that end,
my counter-proposal yesterday may serve us better if we exchange the
optional OBJECT IDENTIFIER field for an optional Attributes field, where
policy could be an instance:

	=20

	   ArchiveTimeStamp ::=3D SEQUENCE {=20
	     digestAlgorithm [0] AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL,=20
	     reducedHashtree [1] SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree OPTIONAL,=20
	     attributes          [2] Attributes OPTIONAL,=20
	     timeStamp       ContentInfo}=20

	=20

	I think the other matters can and should be addressed in the
context of LTAP.

	=20

	Carl

________________________________


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<body lang=3DDE link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple>

<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Denis,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Small comment: =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I agree with, =
that ARI
and validate is not mature.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I agree that =
LTAP still
needs some improvement for WGLC &#8211; though I believe it is in good =
shape.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I obviously do =
not agree
with that ERS is not mature. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>And I totally =
disagree
that ERS cannot be sent alone to the IESG. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Concerning the =
last two disagreements:
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>1. As Carl =
already
pointed out it seems there might be a misunderstanding of the =
relationship
between ERS and REQS: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>ERS is =
definitely not the
complete answer to all requirements from REQS, but fulfils its part. =
Other
things shall be defined by LTAP and some REQS may even be addressed at a =
later
time (or only by individual implementations but not by an I-D). (The =
goal of
REQS is to help choose the right technical solutions and approach by =
defining
the objective targets for the =
specifications.)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>2. ERS as the =
data
structure for the records is valuable on its own and has with intent =
been only
loosely coupled with LTAP. So we can progress ERS. This makes the work =
of the
WG easier and more efficient as we then can focus on LTAP and ARI and =
validate
(note: the last two are only intended to be =
informational).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Thanks, =
Tobias<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 4.0pt'>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</spa=
n></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org] =
<b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Denis Pinkas<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, January =
16, 2007
4:32 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Carl Wallace;
ietf-smime@imc.org<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> =
ietf-ltans@imc.org<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Cross review =
of draft
ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd</span></font><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Carl,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>I will have lo leave the discussion here for a few days, since I =
need
to attend different meetings.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>This leaves you more time&nbsp;to look again at&nbsp;the =
arguments
explained in my three e-mails<br>
and to my proposal where the new proposed ASN.1 fulfils the LTANS =
requirements <br>
whereas ERS does not.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>I simply reiterate my position:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;- neither ERS, nor LTAP, nor (ERS + LTAP) meet the
requirements.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;- ERS is not mature.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;- LTAP is not mature.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;- ARI is not mature.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;- validate is not mature.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;- ERS needs major revisions. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;- ERS cannot be sent alone to the =
IESG.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Denis&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>

</span></font></div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>inline...</span></font><o:p></o:p></=
p>

<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue =
1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'=
>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabIndex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><font size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><span
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</spa=
n></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
Denis Pinkas [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net] <br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, January =
16, 2007
3:27 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Carl Wallace;
ietf-smime@imc.org<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> ietf-ltans@imc.org; =
'Russ
Housley'<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Cross review =
of draft
ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd</span></font><span =
lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Carl,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>ERS + LTAP do not meet the requirements.</span></font><font =
size=3D2
color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>[CRW] ERS is currently the =
focus.&nbsp;
Not LTAP.</span></font>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>&nbsp;&lt;snip&gt;&nbsp;</span></fon=
t><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>The archival policy, the archival time period and the crypto
maintenance policy&nbsp;are never mentioned. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Since they are currently not part of ERS, they appear =
nowhere.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>[CRW] &quot;Policy&quot; is cited
throughout and is included in the RequestInformation structure.&nbsp;
&quot;Archival policy&quot; and &quot;crypto maintenance policy&quot; =
are not
distinguished.&nbsp; They should be, but not in =
ERS.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>It is never mentioned that a response&nbsp;is =
signed.&nbsp;</span></font><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>ERS + LTAP contain no signature from a LTA =
agent.</span></font><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>[CRW] See the following in section =
8:
&quot;These data are optionally encapsulated by CMS content types that =
provide
for authentication and/or confidentiality, e.g.&nbsp; SignedData or
EnvelopedData.&quot;</span></font>&nbsp;<font size=3D2 color=3Dblue =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'> =
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>About&nbsp;the DELETE operation, what is worse is the following
sentence: &quot;Note that this does not mean that <br>
the server does not maintain a trace record of the delete =
operation&quot;. A
trace record would not be sufficient. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Deletion of an archive shall normally not happen, since the LTA =
is
trusted to keep the data until the end of <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>the archive period. A signed permission of deletion, by the =
owner of
the data shall be given, before deletion <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>can occur. This is mentioned nowhere in the =
document.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>[CRW] This should be =
added.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Once again, the current set of documents does not meet the
requirements.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>I guess you&nbsp;reacted too quickly to my proposal from =
yesterday&nbsp;and&nbsp;you
should pay more attention to it.</span></font><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dblue
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>&nbsp;</span></fo=
nt><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>[CRW] Most of your suggestions =
apply to a
different document, in my opinion.&nbsp; I do think you were correct =
w.r.t.
inclusion of an indication of policy in the ArchiveTimeStamp =
layer.&nbsp;
Towards that end, my counter-proposal yesterday may&nbsp;serve us better =
if we
exchange the optional OBJECT IDENTIFIER field for an optional Attributes =
field,
where policy could be an instance:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>&nbsp;&nbsp; ArchiveTimeStamp ::=3D =
SEQUENCE
{ <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; digestAlgorithm [0] AlgorithmIdentifier =
OPTIONAL, <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reducedHashtree [1] SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree
OPTIONAL,&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;attributes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
[2]&nbsp;Attributes OPTIONAL, <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; timeStamp&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
ContentInfo} </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I think the other matters can and =
should
be addressed in the context of LTAP.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Carl</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

</div>

</blockquote>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>

</span></font></div>

</div>

</div>

</body>

</html>

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Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 16:31:38 +0100
From: "Denis Pinkas" <denis.pinkas@bull.net>
To: "Carl Wallace" <CWallace@cygnacom.com>, "ietf-smime@imc.org" <ietf-smime@imc.org>
Cc: "ietf-ltans@imc.org" <ietf-ltans@imc.org>
Subject: Re: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd
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Carl,

I will have lo leave the discussion here for a few days, since I need to attend different meetings.

This leaves you more time to look again at the arguments explained in my three e-mails
and to my proposal where the new proposed ASN.1 fulfils the LTANS requirements 
whereas ERS does not.

I simply reiterate my position:
 
 - neither ERS, nor LTAP, nor (ERS + LTAP) meet the requirements. 
 - ERS is not mature.
 - LTAP is not mature.
 - ARI is not mature.
 - validate is not mature.
 - ERS needs major revisions. 
 - ERS cannot be sent alone to the IESG.

Denis  




inline...




From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 3:27 AM
To: Carl Wallace; ietf-smime@imc.org
Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; 'Russ Housley'
Subject: Re: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd


Carl,

ERS + LTAP do not meet the requirements. 
[CRW] ERS is currently the focus.  Not LTAP. 

 <snip> 
The archival policy, the archival time period and the crypto maintenance policy are never mentioned. 
Since they are currently not part of ERS, they appear nowhere.
[CRW] "Policy" is cited throughout and is included in the RequestInformation structure.  "Archival policy" and "crypto maintenance policy" are not distinguished.  They should be, but not in ERS.

It is never mentioned that a response is signed.  

ERS + LTAP contain no signature from a LTA agent. 
[CRW] See the following in section 8: "These data are optionally encapsulated by CMS content types that provide for authentication and/or confidentiality, e.g.  SignedData or EnvelopedData."  

About the DELETE operation, what is worse is the following sentence: "Note that this does not mean that 
the server does not maintain a trace record of the delete operation". A trace record would not be sufficient. 
Deletion of an archive shall normally not happen, since the LTA is trusted to keep the data until the end of 
the archive period. A signed permission of deletion, by the owner of the data shall be given, before deletion 
can occur. This is mentioned nowhere in the document.

[CRW] This should be added.

Once again, the current set of documents does not meet the requirements.

I guess you reacted too quickly to my proposal from yesterday and you should pay more attention to it. 
[CRW] Most of your suggestions apply to a different document, in my opinion.  I do think you were correct w.r.t. inclusion of an indication of policy in the ArchiveTimeStamp layer.  Towards that end, my counter-proposal yesterday may serve us better if we exchange the optional OBJECT IDENTIFIER field for an optional Attributes field, where policy could be an instance:

   ArchiveTimeStamp ::= SEQUENCE { 
     digestAlgorithm [0] AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL, 
     reducedHashtree [1] SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree OPTIONAL, 
     attributes          [2] Attributes OPTIONAL, 
     timeStamp       ContentInfo} 

I think the other matters can and should be addressed in the context of LTAP.

Carl

--=====003_Dragon650452802867_=====
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<BODY>
<DIV>Carl,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I will have lo leave the discussion here for a few days, since I need to 
attend different meetings.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>This leaves you more time&nbsp;to look again at&nbsp;the arguments 
explained in my three e-mails<BR>and to my proposal where the new proposed ASN.1 
fulfils the LTANS requirements <BR>whereas ERS does not.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I simply reiterate my position:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;- neither ERS, nor LTAP, nor (ERS + LTAP) meet the 
requirements.&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;- ERS is not mature.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;- LTAP is not mature.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;- ARI is not mature.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;- validate is not mature.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;- ERS needs major revisions. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;- ERS cannot be sent alone to the IESG.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Denis&nbsp;&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<HR>
</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff size=2>inline...</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
  <HR tabIndex=-1>
  <FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Denis Pinkas 
  [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, January 16, 2007 3:27 
  AM<BR><B>To:</B> Carl Wallace; ietf-smime@imc.org<BR><B>Cc:</B> 
  ietf-ltans@imc.org; 'Russ Housley'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Cross review of 
  draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>Carl,</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>ERS + LTAP do not meet the requirements.<SPAN 
  class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>[CRW] ERS is currently the focus.&nbsp; Not 
  LTAP.</FONT>&nbsp;</SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
  class=270152511-16012007>&nbsp;&lt;snip&gt;&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>The archival policy, the archival time period and the crypto maintenance 
  policy&nbsp;are never mentioned. </DIV>
  <DIV>Since they are currently not part of ERS, they appear nowhere.</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
  class=270152511-16012007>[CRW] "Policy" is cited throughout and is included in 
  the RequestInformation structure.&nbsp; "Archival policy" and "crypto 
  maintenance policy" are not distinguished.&nbsp; They should be, but not in 
  ERS.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>It is never mentioned that a response&nbsp;is signed.&nbsp;<SPAN 
  class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007></SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>ERS + LTAP contain no signature from a LTA agent.<SPAN 
  class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT 
  face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>[CRW] See the following in section 8: "These 
  data are optionally encapsulated by CMS content types that provide for 
  authentication and/or confidentiality, e.g.&nbsp; SignedData or 
  EnvelopedData."</FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> 
  </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>About&nbsp;the DELETE operation, what is worse is the following sentence: 
  "Note that this does not mean that <BR>the server does not maintain a trace 
  record of the delete operation". A trace record would not be sufficient. 
</DIV>
  <DIV>Deletion of an archive shall normally not happen, since the LTA is 
  trusted to keep the data until the end of </DIV>
  <DIV>the archive period. A signed permission of deletion, by the owner of the 
  data shall be given, before deletion </DIV>
  <DIV>can occur. This is mentioned nowhere in the document.</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>[CRW] This should be added.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Once again, the current set of documents does not meet the 
  requirements.</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>
  <DIV>I guess you&nbsp;reacted too quickly to my proposal from 
  yesterday&nbsp;and&nbsp;you should pay more attention to it.<SPAN 
  class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>[CRW] Most of your suggestions apply to a different document, in my 
  opinion.&nbsp; I do think you were correct w.r.t. inclusion of an indication 
  of policy in the ArchiveTimeStamp layer.&nbsp; Towards that end, my 
  counter-proposal yesterday may&nbsp;serve us better if we exchange the 
  optional OBJECT IDENTIFIER </FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>field 
  for an optional Attributes field, where policy could be an 
  instance:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp; ArchiveTimeStamp ::= SEQUENCE { 
  <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; digestAlgorithm [0] AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL, 
  <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reducedHashtree [1] SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree 
  OPTIONAL,&nbsp;<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;attributes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
  [2]&nbsp;Attributes OPTIONAL, <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
  timeStamp&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ContentInfo} 
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I 
  think the other matters can and should be addressed in the context of 
  LTAP.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>Carl</FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<HR>
</BODY></HTML>

--=====003_Dragon650452802867_=====--





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Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 16:30:51 +0100
From: "Denis Pinkas" <denis.pinkas@bull.net>
To: "Peter Sylvester" <Peter.Sylvester@edelweb.fr>
Cc: "ietf-smime@imc.org" <ietf-smime@imc.org>, "ietf-ltans@imc.org" <ietf-ltans@imc.org>
Subject: Re: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd
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Peter,

You said:

>The details how a delete request is authenticated is outside of scope of 
>LTAP as well as management of ownerships etc.

Many aspects seem to be outside the scope of the document, whereas they should not..

>A trace record means: "At this place there had been some data which can 
>be described by (list of some metadata),
>they had been deleted (metadata about that fact)." It is not the backend 
>LTA that creates all these metedata,
>the frontend that authenticates the request prepares some of them. The 
>LTA does not make complicated decisions.

A trace record from the LTA would be insufficient in case of a dispute.

An LTA is providing a service for someone. An LTA has to be made responsible 
of its actions, and therfor must give back some proof for each deposit or for an addition 
to a former deposit.

In case the owner of the data decides to shorten the original archival time period 
(BTW mentioned nowhere in ERS or in LTAP), then the LTA must be able to present 
some proof of that will, otherwise the owner of the data could pretend that the archive 
was deleted by the LTA before the end of the original archival period.

(text deleted)

Denis                                                  

>Peter






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From: Peter Sylvester <Peter.Sylvester@edelweb.fr>
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Subject: Re: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd
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>     [CRW] ERS is currently the focus.  Not LTAP. 
>
Right.
>
>     ERS + LTAP contain no signature from a LTA agent.  
>     [CRW] See the following in section 8: "These data are optionally
>     encapsulated by CMS content types that provide for authentication
>     and/or confidentiality, e.g.  SignedData or EnvelopedData."  
>      
>     About the DELETE operation, what is worse is the following
>     sentence: "Note that this does not mean that
>     the server does not maintain a trace record of the delete
>     operation". A trace record would not be sufficient.
>     Deletion of an archive shall normally not happen, since the LTA is
>     trusted to keep the data until the end of
>     the archive period. A signed permission of deletion, by the owner
>     of the data shall be given, before deletion
>     can occur. This is mentioned nowhere in the document.
>      
>     [CRW] This should be added.
>
The details how a delete request is authenticated is outside of scope of 
LTAP as well as management of ownerships etc.
A trace record means: "At this place there had been some data which can 
be described by (list of some metadata),
they had been deleted (metadata about that fact)." It is not the backend 
LTA that creates all these metedata,
the frontend that authenticates the request prepares some of them. The 
LTA does not make complicated decisions.

An example of a higher level front end protocol on can take something 
like the French proposal
of the National Archives.

Peter


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From: Carl Wallace <CWallace@cygnacom.com>
To: Denis Pinkas <denis.pinkas@bull.net>, ietf-smime@imc.org
Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org, "'Russ Housley'" <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd
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inline...


  _____  

From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 3:27 AM
To: Carl Wallace; ietf-smime@imc.org
Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; 'Russ Housley'
Subject: Re: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd


Carl,
 
ERS + LTAP do not meet the requirements. 
[CRW] ERS is currently the focus.  Not LTAP. 
 
 <snip> 
The archival policy, the archival time period and the crypto maintenance
policy are never mentioned. 
Since they are currently not part of ERS, they appear nowhere.
[CRW] "Policy" is cited throughout and is included in the RequestInformation
structure.  "Archival policy" and "crypto maintenance policy" are not
distinguished.  They should be, but not in ERS.
 
It is never mentioned that a response is signed.  
 
ERS + LTAP contain no signature from a LTA agent. 
[CRW] See the following in section 8: "These data are optionally
encapsulated by CMS content types that provide for authentication and/or
confidentiality, e.g.  SignedData or EnvelopedData."  
 
About the DELETE operation, what is worse is the following sentence: "Note
that this does not mean that 
the server does not maintain a trace record of the delete operation". A
trace record would not be sufficient. 
Deletion of an archive shall normally not happen, since the LTA is trusted
to keep the data until the end of 
the archive period. A signed permission of deletion, by the owner of the
data shall be given, before deletion 
can occur. This is mentioned nowhere in the document.
 
[CRW] This should be added.
 
Once again, the current set of documents does not meet the requirements.
 
I guess you reacted too quickly to my proposal from yesterday and you should
pay more attention to it. 
[CRW] Most of your suggestions apply to a different document, in my opinion.
I do think you were correct w.r.t. inclusion of an indication of policy in
the ArchiveTimeStamp layer.  Towards that end, my counter-proposal yesterday
may serve us better if we exchange the optional OBJECT IDENTIFIER field for
an optional Attributes field, where policy could be an instance:
 
   ArchiveTimeStamp ::= SEQUENCE { 
     digestAlgorithm [0] AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL, 
     reducedHashtree [1] SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree OPTIONAL, 
     attributes          [2] Attributes OPTIONAL, 
     timeStamp       ContentInfo} 
 
I think the other matters can and should be addressed in the context of
LTAP.
 
Carl


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<BODY>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff size=2>inline...</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
  <HR tabIndex=-1>
  <FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Denis Pinkas 
  [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, January 16, 2007 3:27 
  AM<BR><B>To:</B> Carl Wallace; ietf-smime@imc.org<BR><B>Cc:</B> 
  ietf-ltans@imc.org; 'Russ Housley'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Cross review of 
  draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>Carl,</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>ERS + LTAP do not meet the requirements.<SPAN 
  class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>[CRW] ERS is currently the focus.&nbsp; Not 
  LTAP.</FONT>&nbsp;</SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
  class=270152511-16012007>&nbsp;&lt;snip&gt;&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>The archival policy, the archival time period and the crypto maintenance 
  policy&nbsp;are never mentioned. </DIV>
  <DIV>Since they are currently not part of ERS, they appear nowhere.</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
  class=270152511-16012007>[CRW] "Policy" is cited throughout and is included in 
  the RequestInformation structure.&nbsp; "Archival policy" and "crypto 
  maintenance policy" are not distinguished.&nbsp; They should be, but not in 
  ERS.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>It is never mentioned that a response&nbsp;is signed.&nbsp;<SPAN 
  class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007></SPAN><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>ERS + LTAP contain no signature from a LTA agent.<SPAN 
  class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT 
  face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>[CRW] See the following in section 8: "These 
  data are optionally encapsulated by CMS content types that provide for 
  authentication and/or confidentiality, e.g.&nbsp; SignedData or 
  EnvelopedData."</FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> 
  </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>About&nbsp;the DELETE operation, what is worse is the following sentence: 
  "Note that this does not mean that <BR>the server does not maintain a trace 
  record of the delete operation". A trace record would not be sufficient. 
</DIV>
  <DIV>Deletion of an archive shall normally not happen, since the LTA is 
  trusted to keep the data until the end of </DIV>
  <DIV>the archive period. A signed permission of deletion, by the owner of the 
  data shall be given, before deletion </DIV>
  <DIV>can occur. This is mentioned nowhere in the document.</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>[CRW] This should be added.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Once again, the current set of documents does not meet the 
  requirements.</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>
  <DIV>I guess you&nbsp;reacted too quickly to my proposal from 
  yesterday&nbsp;and&nbsp;you should pay more attention to it.<SPAN 
  class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>[CRW] Most of your suggestions apply to a different document, in my 
  opinion.&nbsp; I do think you were correct w.r.t. inclusion of an indication 
  of policy in the ArchiveTimeStamp layer.&nbsp; Towards that end, my 
  counter-proposal yesterday may&nbsp;serve us better if we exchange the 
  optional OBJECT IDENTIFIER </FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>field 
  for an optional Attributes field, where policy could be an 
  instance:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp; ArchiveTimeStamp ::= SEQUENCE { 
  <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; digestAlgorithm [0] AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL, 
  <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reducedHashtree [1] SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree 
  OPTIONAL,&nbsp;<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;attributes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
  [2]&nbsp;Attributes OPTIONAL, <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
  timeStamp&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ContentInfo} 
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I 
  think the other matters can and should be addressed in the context of 
  LTAP.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=270152511-16012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>Carl</FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 09:27:08 +0100
From: "Denis Pinkas" <denis.pinkas@bull.net>
To: "Carl Wallace" <CWallace@cygnacom.com>, "ietf-smime@imc.org" <ietf-smime@imc.org>
Cc: "ietf-ltans@imc.org" <ietf-ltans@imc.org>, "'Russ Housley'" <housley@vigilsec.com>
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Carl,

ERS + LTAP do not meet the requirements.

In order to understand LTAP, there is the need to wait until page 28, 
where the operations are only sketched :

- The ARCHIVE operation applies to "rawData and a messageDigest" 
   without any information on these two pieces of information and 
   their relationship, if any, with ERS.

 - The STATUS operation is hardly defined.

 - The EXPORT operation returns "data and metadata of the object"
   without any information on these two pieces of information and 
   their relationship, if any, with ERS.

 - The DELETE operation "returns the updated metadata (or nothing)" 
   without any information on this piece of information and its relationship, 
   if any, with ERS. 

The archival policy, the archival time period and the crypto maintenance policy are never mentioned. 
Since they are currently not part of ERS, they appear nowhere.

It is never mentioned that a response is signed. 

ERS + LTAP contain no signature from a LTA agent.

About the DELETE operation, what is worse is the following sentence: "Note that this does not mean that 
the server does not maintain a trace record of the delete operation". A trace record would not be sufficient. 
Deletion of an archive shall normally not happen, since the LTA is trusted to keep the data until the end of 
the archive period. A signed permission of deletion, by the owner of the data shall be given, before deletion 
can occur. This is mentioned nowhere in the document.

Once again, the current set of documents does not meet the requirements.

I guess you reacted too quickly to my proposal from yesterday and you should pay more attention to it.

Denis




Denis, 
  
Thanks for the analysis.  Regarding: 
  
ERS is supposed to respond to draft-ietf-ltans-reqs-10.txt, isn'it ? 
  
We've been proceeding with ERS + LTAP intended to meet the requirements, not ERS in isolation.  Thus, some of the information you mentioned is addressed at the protocol level, not in the evidence record.  I think this is certainly true of items 1, 2 and 4.  For item 3, the service can provide the evidence without contributing signatures to the evidence record.  It simply has to be trusted to take the appropriate renewal actions at the right times.  For item 7, the period is implied by the time in the innermost timestamp and the outermost timestamp and the evidence record is itself the evidence being provided.
 
For items 5 and 6, I agree that the ArchiveTimestamp is probably the best place to represent the policies to meet this requirement.  Since these values can change over time, they are not as easily represented in an outer wrapper applied at the protocol level.  Perhaps the following:
 
   ArchiveTimeStamp ::= SEQUENCE { 
     digestAlgorithm [0] AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL, 
     reducedHashtree [1] SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree OPTIONAL, 
     policy          [1] OBJECT IDENTIFIER OPTIONAL, 
     timeStamp       ContentInfo} 
Using this structure, the policy would be asserted when a renewal is performed. 
  
Carl 


________________________________ 
        From: owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Denis Pinkas 
        Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 9:59 AM 
        To: ietf-smime@imc.org 
        Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; 'Russ Housley' 
        Subject: Re: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd 
        
        
        I said in an earlier e-mail: "The WG has to justify why it would not fulfill its needs". 
        Carl has provided interesting information to explain the differences with ISO ISO-18014-3 
        and why ERS is different. The main advantage is the use of "ordinary" time-stamps rather 
        than time-stamps with specific extensions. However, this information should not be lost 
        and be used to write an informative annex. 
         
        There are indeed much more important topics. 
         
        ERS is supposed to respond to draft-ietf-ltans-reqs-10.txt, isn'it ? 
         
        However, many of the requirements that are present in the requirements document 
        are not met by the current ERS draft. 
         
        Here are a few examples : 
                1. ltans-reqs-10 defines an Archival Period as "The period during which an archived 
        data object is preserved by a long-term archive service". How may a long term-archive 
        service be held responsible of storing the data during that time-period, since 
        the information to know the time period is not present in the ER ? 
                2. ltans-reqs-10 defines a Cryp! 
        tographic Maintenance Policy. There is no corresponding 
        element in ERS. How can a long term-archive service know which maintenance to apply, 
        since the information to perform the maintenance correctly is not present in ER ? 
                3. ltans-reqs-10 states on page 7: A long-term archive service provides evidence 
        that may be used to demonstrate the existence of an archived data object at a given time 
        and the integrity of the archived data object since that time. The ER is supposed 
        to be the basic piece of data to support that evidence. However, it is not signed 
        by the long term-archive service, thus it cannot be used "to demonstrate the existence 
        of an archived data object at a given time and the integrity of the archived data object 
        since that time". 
                4. ltans-reqs-10 adds on page 7: "Additionally, the evidence identifies the LTA(s) 
        that have participated in the preservation of the archived data object". However, 
        ER does not contain the names of the LTA(s) that have participated in the preservation 
        of the archived data object. 
                5. ltans-reqs-10 states on page 9: "A long-term archive service must operate in accordance 
        with a long-term archive service policy that defines characteristics of the implementation 
        of the long-term archive service". However, ER does not contain a data item to support 
        the "long-term archive service policy". 
                6. ltans-reqs-10 adds on page 10: " Over the course of many years, the policies under which 
        an LTA operates may undergo modification.  Thus, an evidence record may feature multiple 
        indications of policies active at various points during the life of an archived data object." 
        However, the ER does not contain such an information. 
                7. ltans-reqs-10 states on page 11: "A long-term archive service must be capable of providing 
        evidence that can be used to demonstrate the integrity of data for which it is responsible 
        from the time it received the data until the expiration of the archival period of the data". 
        However, no data item is specified in ER to provide this evidence. 
        
        This means that much work is still needed on the document to fulfill the requirements. 
         
        Now, let us see what should be done. The following is obviously an unpolished strawman proposal. 
         
        In order to reduce the number of time stamps, it is necessary to be able to aggregate data 
        before applying a time stamp on it. For doing it, the following structure (close to the 
        structure of ArchiveTimeStamp, but different) would fulfill the need). 
         
           TimeStampedNode ::= SEQUENCE { 
             digestAlgorithm        [0] AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL, 
             archivalPolicy             ArchivalPolicy, 
             archivalTimePeriod         ArchivalTimePeriod, 
             cryptoMaintenancePolicy    CryptoMaintenancePolicy, 
             reducedHashtree            SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree, 
             timeStamp                  TimeStampToken } 
         
           PartialHashtree ::= SEQUENCE OF OCTET STRING 
         
           ArchivalPolicy::= OBJECT IDENTIFIER 
                 
           ArchivalTimePeriod ::= SEQUENCE { 
                notBefore      GeneralizedTime, 
                notAfter       GeneralizedTime } 
                 
        CryptoMaintenancePolicy would need more work to be defined, but basically 
        would contain a sequence of algorithm identifiers with their parameters. 
                 
        The CryptoMaintenancePolicy applies to the data in the tree and to the crypto of 
        the time stamp token. 
         
        The hash included in the TimeStampToken is computed on the reducedHashtree element. 
         
        If this structure is signed by an agent from an archival service, then it can be used 
        to demonstrate that a given agent from an LTA has accepted to archive, under a given 
        policy for a given time period, the data items that are under the hash tree. 
         
        This means that TimeStampedNode must be the eContent of a CMS message signed by 
        an LTA agent in order to form a SignedNode. 
         
        Later on, the same, another or more LTA agents may need to add some other data to 
        a signed Node, without loosing the previous time-stamp and signature. 
         
        This leads to the following structure: 
         
           EvidenceNode ::= SEQUENCE { 
              version                        INTEGER { v1(1) } , 
              digestAlgorithms               SEQUENCE OF AlgorithmIdentifier, 
              archivalPolicy                 ArchivalPolicy, 
              archivalTimePeriod             ArchivalTimePeriod, 
              cryptoMaintenancePolicy        CryptoMaintenancePolicy, 
              evidenceRecord                 EvidenceRecord, 
                                             -- the evidence record that serves 
                                             -- for the construction 
              signedNodeSequence             SignedNodeSequence   OPTIONAL, 
                                             -- the elements that are added 
                                             -- to the previous evidence 
              timeStamp                      TimeStampToken } 
         
        with: 
         
           signedNodeSequence ::= SEQUENCE OF SignedNode 
         
        The CryptoMaintenancePolicy applies to the previous evidence record, to all 
        the data that are in the tree and to the crypto of the time stamp token. 
         
        The hash included in the TimeStampToken is computed on the concatenation of the 
        evidenceRecord element and of the signedNodeSequence element. 
         
        This means that EvidenceNode must be the eContent of a CMS message signed by 
        an LTA agent in order to form an EvidenceRecord. 
         
        This new proposal fulfills the seven requirements mentioned here above. 
         
        Denis 
         
________________________________ 
                Tony, 
         
        I think Denis should provide additional details when calling for a working group item to be dropped, especially when making this request this late in the process with non-freely available documents as the basis.  However, I'll try to make the case in the other direction.
         
                I don't think it's simply a case of too many options that require profiling.  One motivation often cited during the development of ERS is support for aggregations of data.  This is represented in ERS via the reducedHashtree field in the ArchiveTimeStamp structure.  This field and the related ArchiveTimeStampChain and ArchiveTimeStampSequence structures allow handling of the aggregation when the initial timestamp is generated, when simple timestamp renewal is required as well as when simple timestamp renewal is not sufficient and the original data must be hashed again.
         
        The ISO spec uses the ExtRenewal extension for timestamp renewal.  This is roughly analogous to the timestamp renewal feature in ERS.  However, there does not seem to be sufficient support for cases where the hash algorithm is updated and the original data must be rehashed.  In ERS, when a hash algorithm update is necessary, the preceding timestamp tokens are hashed along with the original data.  In the ISO spec, an existing timestamp token is presented for renewal but the original data is not.  It may be possible to make this work using the extHash extension, but I don't see any description of this in the current spec (nor do I see any text that describes verification of the ExtRenewal extension).  I don't follow how the aggregation mechanisms in the ISO spec can be used to aggregate data for the initial timestamp well enough to compare them to ERS.  
         
        ERS support for aggregation is more clearly stated and ERS provides more complete handling of renewal operations.  For these reasons, I think we should proceed with ERS instead of trying to enhance the ISO spec.
         
        Carl 


________________________________ 
                From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com] 
                Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 11:04 AM 
                To: 'Carl Wallace'; 'Denis Pinkas'; ietf-smime@imc.org 
                Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; 'Tobias Gondrom'; 'Russ Housley' 
                Subject: RE: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd
                
                
                Carl: 
                 
                I think Denis asks simply for the justification for the introduction of new technology to solve a problem which may already be solved with an existing ISO standard (which has already been published and is presumably more mature than what is being proposed).
                 
                Denis notes (in his previous comment) that perhaps the ISO standard offers too many options and that perhaps a Profile of this ISO standard might be published as an RFC to tailor the ISO standard for the specific application(s) you have in mind.  In such a case the RFC should profile (see ISO/IEC TR10000) the ISO standard and not introduce new technology.
                 
                Tony 
                 
                -----Original Message----- 
                From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Carl Wallace 
                Sent: January 11, 2007 10:16 AM 
                To: Denis Pinkas; ietf-smime@imc.org 
                Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; Tobias Gondrom; Russ Housley 
                Subject: RE: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd
                
                
                My response wasn't a reversal of the question but a request for details.  Folks on the list have previously discussed these specifications, including their use within an EvidenceRecord.  You made a sweeping comment that lacked any details and called for fairly drastic measures.  I simply asked for justification.


________________________________ 
                        From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net] 
                        Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 9:46 AM 
                        To: Carl Wallace; ietf-smime@imc.org 
                        Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; Russ Housley; Tobias Gondrom 
                        Subject: Re: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd
                        
                        
                        Carl, 
                         
                        Please do not reverse the question. ISO 18014-3 already exists. The WG has to justify why it would not fulfill its needs.
                        I will refine my question: Why is a profile of ISO 18014-3 not adequate to fulfill the needs ? 
                        A profile would make sense, since ISO 18014-3 has many options. 
                         
                        Denis 
________________________________ 

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<DIV>Carl,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>ERS + LTAP do not meet the requirements.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>In order to understand LTAP, there is the need to wait until page 28, 
</DIV>
<DIV>where the operations are only sketched :</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>- The ARCHIVE operation&nbsp;applies to "rawData and a messageDigest" 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; without any information on these two pieces of information and 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; their relationship, if any, with ERS.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;- The STATUS operation is hardly defined.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;- The EXPORT operation returns "data and metadata of the 
object"<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; without any information on these two pieces of 
information and <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; their relationship, if any, with ERS.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;- The DELETE operation "returns the updated metadata (or nothing)" 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; without any information on this piece of information and its 
relationship, <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; if any, with ERS. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The archival policy, the archival time period and the crypto maintenance 
policy&nbsp;are never mentioned. </DIV>
<DIV>Since they are currently not part of ERS, they appear nowhere.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>It is never mentioned that a response&nbsp;is signed. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>ERS + LTAP contain no signature from a LTA agent.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>About&nbsp;the DELETE operation, what is worse is the following sentence: 
"Note that this does not mean that <BR>the server does not maintain a trace 
record of the delete operation". A trace record would not be sufficient. </DIV>
<DIV>Deletion of an archive shall normally not happen, since the LTA is trusted 
to keep the data until the end of </DIV>
<DIV>the archive period. A signed permission of deletion, by the owner of the 
data shall be given, before deletion </DIV>
<DIV>can occur. This is mentioned nowhere in the document.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Once again, the current set of documents does not meet the 
requirements.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>I guess you&nbsp;reacted too quickly to my proposal from 
yesterday&nbsp;and&nbsp;you should pay more attention to it.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Denis</DIV></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<HR>
</DIV>
<P><FONT size=2>Denis,</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>Thanks for the analysis.&nbsp; Regarding: </FONT><BR><FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>ERS is supposed to respond to 
draft-ietf-ltans-reqs-10.txt, isn'it ?</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&nbsp;</FONT> 
<BR><FONT size=2>We've been proceeding with ERS + LTAP intended to meet the 
requirements, not ERS in isolation.&nbsp; Thus, some of the information you 
mentioned is addressed at the protocol level, not in the evidence record.&nbsp; 
I think this is certainly true of items 1, 2 and 4.&nbsp; For item 3, the 
service can provide the evidence without contributing signatures to the evidence 
record.&nbsp; It simply has to be trusted to take the appropriate renewal 
actions at the right times.&nbsp; For item 7, the period is implied by the time 
in the innermost timestamp and the outermost timestamp and the evidence record 
is itself the evidence being provided.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>For items 5 and 6, I agree that the 
ArchiveTimestamp is probably the best place to represent the policies to meet 
this requirement.&nbsp; Since these values can change over time, they are not as 
easily represented in an outer wrapper applied at the protocol level.&nbsp; 
Perhaps the following:</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp; ArchiveTimeStamp ::= 
SEQUENCE {</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; digestAlgorithm [0] 
AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL,</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
reducedHashtree [1] SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree OPTIONAL,</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
policy&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [1] OBJECT 
IDENTIFIER OPTIONAL,</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
timeStamp&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ContentInfo}</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>Using this structure, the policy would be asserted when a 
renewal is performed.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>Carl</FONT> </P><BR>
<P><FONT size=2>________________________________</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>From: 
owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org [<A 
href="mailto:owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org">mailto:owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org</A>] 
On Behalf Of Denis Pinkas</FONT> <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
<FONT size=2>Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 9:59 AM</FONT> 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>To: 
ietf-smime@imc.org</FONT> <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; 'Russ Housley'</FONT> 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Subject: Re: Cross 
review of draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd</FONT> 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>I said in an earlier 
e-mail: "The WG has to justify why it would not fulfill its needs". </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Carl has provided 
interesting information to explain the differences with ISO ISO-18014-3 
</FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>and why ERS is 
different. The main advantage is the use of "ordinary" time-stamps rather 
</FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>than time-stamps with 
specific extensions. However, this information should not be lost </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>and be used to write 
an informative annex.</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>There are indeed much 
more important topics. </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>ERS is supposed to 
respond to draft-ietf-ltans-reqs-10.txt, isn'it ?</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>However, many of the 
requirements that are present in the requirements document </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>are not met by the 
current ERS draft. </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Here are a few 
examples :</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>1. ltans-reqs-10 defines 
an Archival Period as "The period during which an archived</FONT> 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>data object is 
preserved by a long-term archive service". How may a long term-archive 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>service be 
held responsible of storing the data during that time-period, since 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>the 
information to know the time period is not present in the ER ?</FONT> 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>2. ltans-reqs-10 defines 
a Cryp!</FONT> <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>tographic Maintenance Policy. There is no corresponding 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>element in 
ERS. How can a long term-archive service know which maintenance to apply, 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>since the 
information to perform the maintenance correctly is not present in ER ?</FONT> 
</P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>3. ltans-reqs-10 states 
on page 7: A long-term archive service provides evidence 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>that may be 
used to demonstrate the existence of an archived data object at a given time 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>and the 
integrity of the archived data object since that time. The ER is supposed 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>to be the 
basic piece of data to support that evidence. However, it is not signed 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>by the long 
term-archive service, thus it cannot be used "to demonstrate the existence 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>of an 
archived data object at a given time and the integrity of the archived data 
object </FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>since 
that time".</FONT> <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>4. ltans-reqs-10 adds on 
page 7: "Additionally, the evidence identifies the LTA(s) 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>that have 
participated in the preservation of the archived data object". However, 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>ER does not 
contain the names of the LTA(s) that have participated in the preservation 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>of the 
archived data object.</FONT> <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>5. ltans-reqs-10 states 
on page 9: "A long-term archive service must operate in accordance 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>with a 
long-term archive service policy that defines characteristics of the 
implementation </FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>of the long-term archive service". However, ER does not contain a data 
item to support </FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>the "long-term archive service policy". 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>6. ltans-reqs-10 adds on 
page 10: " Over the course of many years, the policies under which 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>an LTA 
operates may undergo modification.&nbsp; Thus, an evidence record may feature 
multiple </FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>indications of policies active at various points during the life of an 
archived data object." </FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
<FONT size=2>However, the ER does not contain such an information.</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>7. ltans-reqs-10 states 
on page 11: "A long-term archive service must be capable of providing 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>evidence that 
can be used to demonstrate the integrity of data for which it is responsible 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>from the time 
it received the data until the expiration of the archival period of the data". 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>However, no 
data item is specified in ER to provide this evidence.</FONT> 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>This means that much 
work is still needed on the document to fulfill the requirements.</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Now, let us see what 
should be done. The following is obviously an unpolished strawman 
proposal.</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>In order to reduce 
the number of time stamps, it is necessary to be able to aggregate data 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>before 
applying a time stamp on it. For doing it, the following structure (close to the 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>structure of 
ArchiveTimeStamp, but different) would fulfill the need).</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp; 
TimeStampedNode ::= SEQUENCE {</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
digestAlgorithm&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [0] 
AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL,</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
archivalPolicy&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
ArchivalPolicy,</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
archivalTimePeriod&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
ArchivalTimePeriod,</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; cryptoMaintenancePolicy&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
CryptoMaintenancePolicy,</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
reducedHashtree&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree,</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
timeStamp&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
TimeStampToken }</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp; 
PartialHashtree ::= SEQUENCE OF OCTET STRING</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp; 
ArchivalPolicy::= OBJECT IDENTIFIER</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp; 
ArchivalTimePeriod ::= SEQUENCE {</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
notBefore&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; GeneralizedTime,</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
notAfter&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; GeneralizedTime }</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>CryptoMaintenancePolicy would need more work to be defined, but basically 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>would contain 
a sequence of algorithm identifiers with their parameters.</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>The 
CryptoMaintenancePolicy applies to the data in the tree and to the crypto of 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>the time 
stamp token.</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>The hash included in 
the TimeStampToken is computed on the reducedHashtree element.</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>If this structure is 
signed by an agent from an archival service, then it can be used 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>to 
demonstrate that a given agent from an LTA has accepted to archive, under a 
given </FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>policy 
for a given time period, the data items that are under the hash tree.</FONT> 
</P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>This means that 
TimeStampedNode must be the eContent of a CMS message signed by 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>an LTA agent 
in order to form a SignedNode.</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Later on, the same, 
another or more LTA agents may need to add some other data to 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>a signed 
Node, without loosing the previous time-stamp and signature. </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>This leads to the 
following structure:</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp; 
EvidenceNode ::= SEQUENCE {</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
version&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
INTEGER { v1(1) } ,</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
digestAlgorithms&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
SEQUENCE OF AlgorithmIdentifier,</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
archivalPolicy&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
ArchivalPolicy,</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
archivalTimePeriod&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
ArchivalTimePeriod,</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
cryptoMaintenancePolicy&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
CryptoMaintenancePolicy,</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
evidenceRecord&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
EvidenceRecord,</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
-- the evidence record that serves </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
-- for the construction</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
signedNodeSequence&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
SignedNodeSequence&nbsp;&nbsp; OPTIONAL,</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
-- the elements that are added </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
-- to the previous evidence</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
timeStamp&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
TimeStampToken }</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>with:</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp; 
signedNodeSequence ::= SEQUENCE OF SignedNode</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>The 
CryptoMaintenancePolicy applies to the previous evidence record, to all 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>the data that 
are in the tree and to the crypto of the time stamp token.</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>The hash included in 
the TimeStampToken is computed on the concatenation of the 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT 
size=2>evidenceRecord element and of the signedNodeSequence element.</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>This means that 
EvidenceNode must be the eContent of a CMS message signed by 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>an LTA agent 
in order to form an EvidenceRecord.</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>This new proposal 
fulfills the seven requirements mentioned here above.</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Denis</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2>________________________________</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Tony,</FONT> 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>I think Denis 
should provide additional details when calling for a working group item to be 
dropped, especially when making this request this late in the process with 
non-freely available documents as the basis.&nbsp; However, I'll try to make the 
case in the other direction.</FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>I don't think it's 
simply a case of too many options that require profiling.&nbsp; One motivation 
often cited during the development of ERS is support for aggregations of 
data.&nbsp; This is represented in ERS via the reducedHashtree field in the 
ArchiveTimeStamp structure.&nbsp; This field and the related 
ArchiveTimeStampChain and ArchiveTimeStampSequence structures allow handling of 
the aggregation when the initial timestamp is generated, when simple timestamp 
renewal is required as well as when simple timestamp renewal is not sufficient 
and the original data must be hashed again.</FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>The ISO spec 
uses the ExtRenewal extension for timestamp renewal.&nbsp; This is roughly 
analogous to the timestamp renewal feature in ERS.&nbsp; However, there does not 
seem to be sufficient support for cases where the hash algorithm is updated and 
the original data must be rehashed.&nbsp; In ERS, when a hash algorithm update 
is necessary, the preceding timestamp tokens are hashed along with the original 
data.&nbsp; In the ISO spec, an existing timestamp token is presented for 
renewal but the original data is not.&nbsp; It may be possible to make this work 
using the extHash extension, but I don't see any description of this in the 
current spec (nor do I see any text that describes verification of the 
ExtRenewal extension).&nbsp; I don't follow how the aggregation mechanisms in 
the ISO spec can be used to aggregate data for the initial timestamp well enough 
to compare them to ERS.&nbsp; </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>ERS support 
for aggregation is more clearly stated and ERS provides more complete handling 
of renewal operations.&nbsp; For these reasons, I think we should proceed with 
ERS instead of trying to enhance the ISO spec.</FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Carl</FONT> 
</P><BR>
<P><FONT size=2>________________________________</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>From: Tony Capel [<A 
href="mailto:capel@comgate.com">mailto:capel@comgate.com</A>] 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Sent: Thursday, January 
11, 2007 11:04 AM</FONT> <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>To: 'Carl Wallace'; 
'Denis Pinkas'; ietf-smime@imc.org</FONT> 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; 
'Tobias Gondrom'; 'Russ Housley'</FONT> 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Subject: RE: RE: RE: 
Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca 
ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd</FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Carl:</FONT> 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>I think Denis asks 
simply for the justification for the introduction of new technology to solve a 
problem which may already be solved with an existing ISO standard (which has 
already been published and is presumably more mature than what is being 
proposed).</FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Denis notes (in his 
previous comment) that perhaps the ISO standard offers too many options and that 
perhaps a Profile of this ISO standard might be published as an RFC to tailor 
the ISO standard for the specific application(s) you have in mind.&nbsp; In such 
a case the RFC should profile (see ISO/IEC TR10000) the ISO standard and not 
introduce new technology.</FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Tony</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> </FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>-----Original 
Message-----</FONT> <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>From: 
owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [<A 
href="mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org">mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org</A>] 
On Behalf Of Carl Wallace</FONT> <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Sent: January 11, 2007 
10:16 AM</FONT> <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>To: Denis Pinkas; 
ietf-smime@imc.org</FONT> <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; 
Tobias Gondrom; Russ Housley</FONT> 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Subject: RE: RE: RE: 
Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca 
ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd</FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>My response wasn't a 
reversal of the question but a request for details.&nbsp; Folks on the list have 
previously discussed these specifications, including their use within an 
EvidenceRecord.&nbsp; You made a sweeping comment that lacked any details and 
called for fairly drastic measures.&nbsp; I simply asked for 
justification.</FONT></P><BR>
<P><FONT size=2>________________________________</FONT> </P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>From: Denis Pinkas [<A 
href="mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net">mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net</A>] 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Sent: Thursday, January 
11, 2007 9:46 AM</FONT> <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>To: Carl Wallace; 
ietf-smime@imc.org</FONT> <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; 
Russ Housley; Tobias Gondrom</FONT> 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Subject: Re: RE: RE: 
Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca 
ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd</FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Carl,</FONT> 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Please do not reverse 
the question. ISO 18014-3 already exists. The WG has to justify why it would not 
fulfill its needs.</FONT></P>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>I will refine my 
question: Why is a profile of ISO 18014-3 not adequate to fulfill the needs 
?</FONT> <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>A profile would make 
sense, since ISO 18014-3 has many options.</FONT> 
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT size=2> 
</FONT><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT size=2>Denis</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>________________________________</FONT> </P>
<HR>
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From: Carl Wallace <CWallace@cygnacom.com>
To: Denis Pinkas <denis.pinkas@bull.net>, ietf-smime@imc.org
Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org, "'Russ Housley'" <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 10:46:01 -0500
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Denis,
 
Thanks for the analysis.  Regarding: 
 
ERS is supposed to respond to draft-ietf-ltans-reqs-10.txt, isn'it ?
 
We've been proceeding with ERS + LTAP intended to meet the requirements, not
ERS in isolation.  Thus, some of the information you mentioned is addressed
at the protocol level, not in the evidence record.  I think this is
certainly true of items 1, 2 and 4.  For item 3, the service can provide the
evidence without contributing signatures to the evidence record.  It simply
has to be trusted to take the appropriate renewal actions at the right
times.  For item 7, the period is implied by the time in the innermost
timestamp and the outermost timestamp and the evidence record is itself the
evidence being provided.
 
For items 5 and 6, I agree that the ArchiveTimestamp is probably the best
place to represent the policies to meet this requirement.  Since these
values can change over time, they are not as easily represented in an outer
wrapper applied at the protocol level.  Perhaps the following:
 
   ArchiveTimeStamp ::= SEQUENCE {
     digestAlgorithm [0] AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL,
     reducedHashtree [1] SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree OPTIONAL,
     policy          [1] OBJECT IDENTIFIER OPTIONAL,
     timeStamp       ContentInfo}

Using this structure, the policy would be asserted when a renewal is
performed.
 
Carl


________________________________

	From: owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org
[mailto:owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Denis Pinkas
	Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 9:59 AM
	To: ietf-smime@imc.org
	Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; 'Russ Housley'
	Subject: Re: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd
	
	

	I said in an earlier e-mail: "The WG has to justify why it would not
fulfill its needs". 

	Carl has provided interesting information to explain the differences
with ISO ISO-18014-3 

	and why ERS is different. The main advantage is the use of
"ordinary" time-stamps rather 

	than time-stamps with specific extensions. However, this information
should not be lost 

	and be used to write an informative annex.

	 

	There are indeed much more important topics. 

	 

	ERS is supposed to respond to draft-ietf-ltans-reqs-10.txt, isn'it ?

	 

	However, many of the requirements that are present in the
requirements document 

	are not met by the current ERS draft. 

	 

	Here are a few examples :

		1. ltans-reqs-10 defines an Archival Period as "The period
during which an archived
	data object is preserved by a long-term archive service". How may a
long term-archive 
	service be held responsible of storing the data during that
time-period, since 
	the information to know the time period is not present in the ER ?
		2. ltans-reqs-10 defines a Cryp!
	tographic Maintenance Policy. There is no corresponding 
	element in ERS. How can a long term-archive service know which
maintenance to apply, 
	since the information to perform the maintenance correctly is not
present in ER ?

		3. ltans-reqs-10 states on page 7: A long-term archive
service provides evidence 
	that may be used to demonstrate the existence of an archived data
object at a given time 
	and the integrity of the archived data object since that time. The
ER is supposed 
	to be the basic piece of data to support that evidence. However, it
is not signed 
	by the long term-archive service, thus it cannot be used "to
demonstrate the existence 
	of an archived data object at a given time and the integrity of the
archived data object 
	since that time".
		4. ltans-reqs-10 adds on page 7: "Additionally, the evidence
identifies the LTA(s) 
	that have participated in the preservation of the archived data
object". However, 
	ER does not contain the names of the LTA(s) that have participated
in the preservation 
	of the archived data object.
		5. ltans-reqs-10 states on page 9: "A long-term archive
service must operate in accordance 
	with a long-term archive service policy that defines characteristics
of the implementation 
	of the long-term archive service". However, ER does not contain a
data item to support 
	the "long-term archive service policy". 
		6. ltans-reqs-10 adds on page 10: " Over the course of many
years, the policies under which 
	an LTA operates may undergo modification.  Thus, an evidence record
may feature multiple 
	indications of policies active at various points during the life of
an archived data object." 
	However, the ER does not contain such an information.

		7. ltans-reqs-10 states on page 11: "A long-term archive
service must be capable of providing 
	evidence that can be used to demonstrate the integrity of data for
which it is responsible 
	from the time it received the data until the expiration of the
archival period of the data". 
	However, no data item is specified in ER to provide this evidence.
	
	This means that much work is still needed on the document to fulfill
the requirements.

	 

	Now, let us see what should be done. The following is obviously an
unpolished strawman proposal.

	 

	In order to reduce the number of time stamps, it is necessary to be
able to aggregate data 
	before applying a time stamp on it. For doing it, the following
structure (close to the 
	structure of ArchiveTimeStamp, but different) would fulfill the
need).

	 

	   TimeStampedNode ::= SEQUENCE {

	     digestAlgorithm        [0] AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL,

	     archivalPolicy             ArchivalPolicy,

	     archivalTimePeriod         ArchivalTimePeriod,

	     cryptoMaintenancePolicy    CryptoMaintenancePolicy,

	     reducedHashtree            SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree,

	     timeStamp                  TimeStampToken }

	 

	   PartialHashtree ::= SEQUENCE OF OCTET STRING

	 

	   ArchivalPolicy::= OBJECT IDENTIFIER

		 

	   ArchivalTimePeriod ::= SEQUENCE {

	        notBefore      GeneralizedTime,

	        notAfter       GeneralizedTime }

		 

	CryptoMaintenancePolicy would need more work to be defined, but
basically 
	would contain a sequence of algorithm identifiers with their
parameters.

		 

	The CryptoMaintenancePolicy applies to the data in the tree and to
the crypto of 
	the time stamp token.

	 

	The hash included in the TimeStampToken is computed on the
reducedHashtree element.

	 

	If this structure is signed by an agent from an archival service,
then it can be used 
	to demonstrate that a given agent from an LTA has accepted to
archive, under a given 
	policy for a given time period, the data items that are under the
hash tree.

	 

	This means that TimeStampedNode must be the eContent of a CMS
message signed by 
	an LTA agent in order to form a SignedNode.

	 

	Later on, the same, another or more LTA agents may need to add some
other data to 
	a signed Node, without loosing the previous time-stamp and
signature. 

	 

	This leads to the following structure:

	 

	   EvidenceNode ::= SEQUENCE {

	      version                        INTEGER { v1(1) } ,

	      digestAlgorithms               SEQUENCE OF
AlgorithmIdentifier,

	      archivalPolicy                 ArchivalPolicy,

	      archivalTimePeriod             ArchivalTimePeriod,

	      cryptoMaintenancePolicy        CryptoMaintenancePolicy,

	      evidenceRecord                 EvidenceRecord,

	                                     -- the evidence record that
serves 

	                                     -- for the construction

	      signedNodeSequence             SignedNodeSequence   OPTIONAL,

	                                     -- the elements that are added 

	                                     -- to the previous evidence

	      timeStamp                      TimeStampToken }

	 

	with:

	 

	   signedNodeSequence ::= SEQUENCE OF SignedNode

	 

	The CryptoMaintenancePolicy applies to the previous evidence record,
to all 
	the data that are in the tree and to the crypto of the time stamp
token.

	 

	The hash included in the TimeStampToken is computed on the
concatenation of the 
	evidenceRecord element and of the signedNodeSequence element.

	 

	This means that EvidenceNode must be the eContent of a CMS message
signed by 
	an LTA agent in order to form an EvidenceRecord.

	 

	This new proposal fulfills the seven requirements mentioned here
above.

	 

	Denis

	 

________________________________

		Tony,
	 
	I think Denis should provide additional details when calling for a
working group item to be dropped, especially when making this request this
late in the process with non-freely available documents as the basis.
However, I'll try to make the case in the other direction.
	 
		I don't think it's simply a case of too many options that
require profiling.  One motivation often cited during the development of ERS
is support for aggregations of data.  This is represented in ERS via the
reducedHashtree field in the ArchiveTimeStamp structure.  This field and the
related ArchiveTimeStampChain and ArchiveTimeStampSequence structures allow
handling of the aggregation when the initial timestamp is generated, when
simple timestamp renewal is required as well as when simple timestamp
renewal is not sufficient and the original data must be hashed again.
	 
	The ISO spec uses the ExtRenewal extension for timestamp renewal.
This is roughly analogous to the timestamp renewal feature in ERS.  However,
there does not seem to be sufficient support for cases where the hash
algorithm is updated and the original data must be rehashed.  In ERS, when a
hash algorithm update is necessary, the preceding timestamp tokens are
hashed along with the original data.  In the ISO spec, an existing timestamp
token is presented for renewal but the original data is not.  It may be
possible to make this work using the extHash extension, but I don't see any
description of this in the current spec (nor do I see any text that
describes verification of the ExtRenewal extension).  I don't follow how the
aggregation mechanisms in the ISO spec can be used to aggregate data for the
initial timestamp well enough to compare them to ERS.  
	 
	ERS support for aggregation is more clearly stated and ERS provides
more complete handling of renewal operations.  For these reasons, I think we
should proceed with ERS instead of trying to enhance the ISO spec.
	 
	Carl


________________________________

		From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com] 
		Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 11:04 AM
		To: 'Carl Wallace'; 'Denis Pinkas'; ietf-smime@imc.org
		Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; 'Tobias Gondrom'; 'Russ Housley'
		Subject: RE: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG
- RE: WG Last Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd
		
		
		Carl:
		 
		I think Denis asks simply for the justification for the
introduction of new technology to solve a problem which may already be
solved with an existing ISO standard (which has already been published and
is presumably more mature than what is being proposed).
		 
		Denis notes (in his previous comment) that perhaps the ISO
standard offers too many options and that perhaps a Profile of this ISO
standard might be published as an RFC to tailor the ISO standard for the
specific application(s) you have in mind.  In such a case the RFC should
profile (see ISO/IEC TR10000) the ISO standard and not introduce new
technology.
		 
		Tony

		 

		-----Original Message-----
		From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org
[mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Carl Wallace
		Sent: January 11, 2007 10:16 AM
		To: Denis Pinkas; ietf-smime@imc.org
		Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; Tobias Gondrom; Russ Housley
		Subject: RE: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG
- RE: WG Last Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd
		
		
		My response wasn't a reversal of the question but a request
for details.  Folks on the list have previously discussed these
specifications, including their use within an EvidenceRecord.  You made a
sweeping comment that lacked any details and called for fairly drastic
measures.  I simply asked for justification.


________________________________

			From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net] 
			Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 9:46 AM
			To: Carl Wallace; ietf-smime@imc.org
			Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; Russ Housley; Tobias Gondrom
			Subject: Re: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from
LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd
			
			
			Carl,
			 
			Please do not reverse the question. ISO 18014-3
already exists. The WG has to justify why it would not fulfill its needs.
			I will refine my question: Why is a profile of ISO
18014-3 not adequate to fulfill the needs ?
			A profile would make sense, since ISO 18014-3 has
many options.
			 
			Denis

________________________________


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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Denis,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Thanks for the analysis.&nbsp; Regarding: </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>ERS is supposed to respond to =
draft-ietf-ltans-reqs-10.txt, isn'it ?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>We've been proceeding with ERS + LTAP intended to =
meet the requirements, not ERS in isolation.&nbsp; Thus, some of the =
information you mentioned is addressed at the protocol level, not in =
the evidence record.&nbsp; I think this is certainly true of items 1, 2 =
and 4.&nbsp; For item 3, the service can provide the evidence without =
contributing signatures to the evidence record.&nbsp; It simply has to =
be trusted to take the appropriate renewal actions at the right =
times.&nbsp; For item 7, the period is implied by the time in the =
innermost timestamp and the outermost timestamp and the evidence record =
is itself the evidence being provided.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>For items 5 and 6, I agree that the ArchiveTimestamp =
is probably the best place to represent the policies to meet this =
requirement.&nbsp; Since these values can change over time, they are =
not as easily represented in an outer wrapper applied at the protocol =
level.&nbsp; Perhaps the following:</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; ArchiveTimeStamp ::=3D SEQUENCE =
{</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; digestAlgorithm [0] =
AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reducedHashtree [1] =
SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree OPTIONAL,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
policy&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [1] OBJECT =
IDENTIFIER OPTIONAL,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
timeStamp&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ContentInfo}</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Using this structure, the policy would be asserted =
when a renewal is performed.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Carl</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>________________________________</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>From: =
owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org">mailto:owner-ietf-ltans@ma=
il.imc.org</A>] On Behalf Of Denis Pinkas</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: =
Monday, January 15, 2007 9:59 AM</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>To: =
ietf-smime@imc.org</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Cc: =
ietf-ltans@imc.org; 'Russ Housley'</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: =
Re: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>I said in =
an earlier e-mail: "The WG has to justify why it would not fulfill its =
needs". </FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Carl has =
provided interesting information to explain the differences with ISO =
ISO-18014-3 </FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>and why =
ERS is different. The main advantage is the use of "ordinary" =
time-stamps rather </FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>than =
time-stamps with specific extensions. However, this information should =
not be lost </FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>and be =
used to write an informative annex.</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>There are =
indeed much more important topics. </FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>ERS is =
supposed to respond to draft-ietf-ltans-reqs-10.txt, isn'it ?</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>However, =
many of the requirements that are present in the requirements document =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>are not =
met by the current ERS draft. </FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Here are a =
few examples :</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>1. =
ltans-reqs-10 defines an Archival Period as "The period during which an =
archived</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>data =
object is preserved by a long-term archive service". How may a long =
term-archive </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>service =
be held responsible of storing the data during that time-period, since =
</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>the =
information to know the time period is not present in the ER ?</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>2. =
ltans-reqs-10 defines a Cryp!</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>tographic =
Maintenance Policy. There is no corresponding </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>element =
in ERS. How can a long term-archive service know which maintenance to =
apply, </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>since the =
information to perform the maintenance correctly is not present in ER =
?</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>3. =
ltans-reqs-10 states on page 7: A long-term archive service provides =
evidence </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>that may =
be used to demonstrate the existence of an archived data object at a =
given time </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>and the =
integrity of the archived data object since that time. The ER is =
supposed </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>to be the =
basic piece of data to support that evidence. However, it is not signed =
</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>by the =
long term-archive service, thus it cannot be used "to demonstrate the =
existence </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>of an =
archived data object at a given time and the integrity of the archived =
data object </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>since =
that time".</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>4. =
ltans-reqs-10 adds on page 7: "Additionally, the evidence identifies =
the LTA(s) </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>that have =
participated in the preservation of the archived data object". However, =
</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>ER does =
not contain the names of the LTA(s) that have participated in the =
preservation </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>of the =
archived data object.</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>5. =
ltans-reqs-10 states on page 9: "A long-term archive service must =
operate in accordance </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>with a =
long-term archive service policy that defines characteristics of the =
implementation </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>of the =
long-term archive service". However, ER does not contain a data item to =
support </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>the =
"long-term archive service policy". </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>6. =
ltans-reqs-10 adds on page 10: " Over the course of many years, the =
policies under which </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>an LTA =
operates may undergo modification.&nbsp; Thus, an evidence record may =
feature multiple </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>indications of policies active at various points during the =
life of an archived data object." </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>However, =
the ER does not contain such an information.</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>7. =
ltans-reqs-10 states on page 11: "A long-term archive service must be =
capable of providing </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>evidence =
that can be used to demonstrate the integrity of data for which it is =
responsible </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>from the =
time it received the data until the expiration of the archival period =
of the data". </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>However, =
no data item is specified in ER to provide this evidence.</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>This =
means that much work is still needed on the document to fulfill the =
requirements.</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Now, let =
us see what should be done. The following is obviously an unpolished =
strawman proposal.</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>In order =
to reduce the number of time stamps, it is necessary to be able to =
aggregate data </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>before =
applying a time stamp on it. For doing it, the following structure =
(close to the </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>structure =
of ArchiveTimeStamp, but different) would fulfill the need).</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; TimeStampedNode ::=3D SEQUENCE {</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
digestAlgorithm&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [0] =
AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL,</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
archivalPolicy&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; ArchivalPolicy,</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
archivalTimePeriod&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
ArchivalTimePeriod,</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
cryptoMaintenancePolicy&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
CryptoMaintenancePolicy,</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
reducedHashtree&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree,</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
timeStamp&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; TimeStampToken }</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; PartialHashtree ::=3D SEQUENCE OF OCTET =
STRING</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; ArchivalPolicy::=3D OBJECT IDENTIFIER</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> </FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; ArchivalTimePeriod ::=3D SEQUENCE {</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
notBefore&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; GeneralizedTime,</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
notAfter&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; GeneralizedTime }</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> </FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>CryptoMaintenancePolicy would need more work to be defined, =
but basically </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>would =
contain a sequence of algorithm identifiers with their =
parameters.</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> </FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>The =
CryptoMaintenancePolicy applies to the data in the tree and to the =
crypto of </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>the time =
stamp token.</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>The hash =
included in the TimeStampToken is computed on the reducedHashtree =
element.</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>If this =
structure is signed by an agent from an archival service, then it can =
be used </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>to =
demonstrate that a given agent from an LTA has accepted to archive, =
under a given </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>policy =
for a given time period, the data items that are under the hash =
tree.</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>This means =
that TimeStampedNode must be the eContent of a CMS message signed by =
</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>an LTA =
agent in order to form a SignedNode.</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Later on, =
the same, another or more LTA agents may need to add some other data to =
</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>a signed =
Node, without loosing the previous time-stamp and signature. </FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>This leads =
to the following structure:</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; EvidenceNode ::=3D SEQUENCE {</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; version&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; INTEGER { v1(1) } ,</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
digestAlgorithms&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; SEQUENCE OF AlgorithmIdentifier,</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
archivalPolicy&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ArchivalPolicy,</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
archivalTimePeriod&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ArchivalTimePeriod,</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
cryptoMaintenancePolicy&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
CryptoMaintenancePolicy,</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
evidenceRecord&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; EvidenceRecord,</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; -- the evidence record that serves </FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; -- for the construction</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
signedNodeSequence&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; SignedNodeSequence&nbsp;&nbsp; OPTIONAL,</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; -- the elements that are added </FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; -- to the previous evidence</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
timeStamp&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
TimeStampToken }</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>with:</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; signedNodeSequence ::=3D SEQUENCE OF =
SignedNode</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>The =
CryptoMaintenancePolicy applies to the previous evidence record, to all =
</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>the data =
that are in the tree and to the crypto of the time stamp token.</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>The hash =
included in the TimeStampToken is computed on the concatenation of the =
</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>evidenceRecord element and of the signedNodeSequence =
element.</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>This means =
that EvidenceNode must be the eContent of a CMS message signed by =
</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>an LTA =
agent in order to form an EvidenceRecord.</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>This new =
proposal fulfills the seven requirements mentioned here above.</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>Denis</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>________________________________</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Tony,</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>I think =
Denis should provide additional details when calling for a working =
group item to be dropped, especially when making this request this late =
in the process with non-freely available documents as the basis.&nbsp; =
However, I'll try to make the case in the other direction.</FONT></P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>I don't think =
it's simply a case of too many options that require profiling.&nbsp; =
One motivation often cited during the development of ERS is support for =
aggregations of data.&nbsp; This is represented in ERS via the =
reducedHashtree field in the ArchiveTimeStamp structure.&nbsp; This =
field and the related ArchiveTimeStampChain and =
ArchiveTimeStampSequence structures allow handling of the aggregation =
when the initial timestamp is generated, when simple timestamp renewal =
is required as well as when simple timestamp renewal is not sufficient =
and the original data must be hashed again.</FONT></P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>The ISO =
spec uses the ExtRenewal extension for timestamp renewal.&nbsp; This is =
roughly analogous to the timestamp renewal feature in ERS.&nbsp; =
However, there does not seem to be sufficient support for cases where =
the hash algorithm is updated and the original data must be =
rehashed.&nbsp; In ERS, when a hash algorithm update is necessary, the =
preceding timestamp tokens are hashed along with the original =
data.&nbsp; In the ISO spec, an existing timestamp token is presented =
for renewal but the original data is not.&nbsp; It may be possible to =
make this work using the extHash extension, but I don't see any =
description of this in the current spec (nor do I see any text that =
describes verification of the ExtRenewal extension).&nbsp; I don't =
follow how the aggregation mechanisms in the ISO spec can be used to =
aggregate data for the initial timestamp well enough to compare them to =
ERS.&nbsp; </FONT></P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>ERS =
support for aggregation is more clearly stated and ERS provides more =
complete handling of renewal operations.&nbsp; For these reasons, I =
think we should proceed with ERS instead of trying to enhance the ISO =
spec.</FONT></P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> =
</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT =
SIZE=3D2>Carl</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>________________________________</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Tony Capel [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:capel@comgate.com">mailto:capel@comgate.com</A>] </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: =
Thursday, January 11, 2007 11:04 AM</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>To: 'Carl =
Wallace'; 'Denis Pinkas'; ietf-smime@imc.org</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Cc: =
ietf-ltans@imc.org; 'Tobias Gondrom'; 'Russ Housley'</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: RE: =
RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca =
ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd</FONT></P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Carl:</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>I think Denis =
asks simply for the justification for the introduction of new =
technology to solve a problem which may already be solved with an =
existing ISO standard (which has already been published and is =
presumably more mature than what is being proposed).</FONT></P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Denis notes =
(in his previous comment) that perhaps the ISO standard offers too many =
options and that perhaps a Profile of this ISO standard might be =
published as an RFC to tailor the ISO standard for the specific =
application(s) you have in mind.&nbsp; In such a case the RFC should =
profile (see ISO/IEC TR10000) the ISO standard and not introduce new =
technology.</FONT></P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Tony</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> </FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original =
Message-----</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>From: =
owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org">mailto:owner-ietf-smime@ma=
il.imc.org</A>] On Behalf Of Carl Wallace</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: January =
11, 2007 10:16 AM</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>To: Denis =
Pinkas; ietf-smime@imc.org</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Cc: =
ietf-ltans@imc.org; Tobias Gondrom; Russ Housley</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: RE: =
RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca =
ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd</FONT></P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>My response =
wasn't a reversal of the question but a request for details.&nbsp; =
Folks on the list have previously discussed these specifications, =
including their use within an EvidenceRecord.&nbsp; You made a sweeping =
comment that lacked any details and called for fairly drastic =
measures.&nbsp; I simply asked for justification.</FONT></P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>________________________________</FONT>
</P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Denis =
Pinkas [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net">mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net</A>] =
</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: =
Thursday, January 11, 2007 9:46 AM</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>To: Carl =
Wallace; ietf-smime@imc.org</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Cc: =
ietf-ltans@imc.org; Russ Housley; Tobias Gondrom</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: =
RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca =
ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd</FONT></P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Carl,</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Please do not =
reverse the question. ISO 18014-3 already exists. The WG has to justify =
why it would not fulfill its needs.</FONT></P>

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>I will refine =
my question: Why is a profile of ISO 18014-3 not adequate to fulfill =
the needs ?</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>A profile =
would make sense, since ISO 18014-3 has many options.</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT SIZE=3D2> </FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Denis</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>________________________________</FONT>
</P>

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From: "todd glassey" <tglassey@earthlink.net>
To: "Denis Pinkas" <denis.pinkas@bull.net>, <ietf-smime@imc.org>
Cc: <ietf-ltans@imc.org>, "'Russ Housley'" <housley@vigilsec.com>
References: <OF65FF40B6.BE6FBC30-ONC1257264.00525071@frcl.bull.fr>
Subject: Re: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd
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Denis
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Denis Pinkas=20
  To: ietf-smime@imc.org=20
  Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org ; 'Russ Housley'=20
  Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 6:59 AM
  Subject: Re: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd


  I said in an earlier e-mail: "The WG has to justify why it would not =
fulfill its needs".=20

  Carl has provided interesting information to explain the differences =
with ISO ISO-18014-3=20

  and why ERS is different. The main advantage is the use of "ordinary" =
time-stamps rather=20

  than time-stamps with specific extensions. However, this information =
should not be lost=20

  and be used to write an informative annex.

  =20

  There are indeed much more important topics.=20



  ERS is supposed to respond to draft-ietf-ltans-reqs-10.txt, isn'it ?

  =20

  However, many of the requirements that are present in the requirements =
document=20

  are not met by the current ERS draft.=20

  =20

  Here are a few examples :


1. ltans-reqs-10 defines an Archival Period as "The period during which =
an archiveddata object is preserved by a long-term archive service". How =
may a long term-archive service be held responsible of storing the data =
during that time-period, since the information to know the time period =
is not present in the ER ? Denis this is one of the key disagreement's =
you and I have with timestamping. There is NO need to keep that =
information online or mechanically provable in a methodology that =
remains consistant with any taks than proving the signature at the time =
of its signing in the technology available at the time of the signing. =
2. ltans-reqs-10 defines a Cr!
 yp!
tographic Maintenance Policy. There is no corresponding element in ERS. =
How can a long term-archive service know which maintenance to apply, =
since the information to perform the maintenance correctly is not =
present in ER ?
3. ltans-reqs-10 states on page 7: A long-term archive service provides =
evidence that may be used to demonstrate the existence of an archived =
data object at a given time and the integrity of the archived data =
object since that time. The ER is supposed to be the basic piece of data =
to support that evidence. However, it is not signed by the long =
term-archive service, thus it cannot be used "to demonstrate the =
existence of an archived data object at a given time and the integrity =
of the archived data object since that time".4. ltans-reqs-10 adds on =
page 7: "Additionally, the evidence identifies the LTA(s) that have =
participated in the preservation of the archived data object". However, =
ER does not contain the names of the LTA(s) that have participated in =
the preservation of the archived data object.5. ltans-reqs-10 states on =
page 9: "A long-term archive service must operate in accordance with a =
long-term archive service policy that defines characteristics of the =
implementation of the long-term archive service". However, ER does not =
contain a data item to support the "long-term archive service policy". =
There  is no specification in the protocol drafts that these 'policies =
and control features' be a part of the mechanical processes of the LTANS =
service Denis...6. ltans-reqs-10 adds on page 10: " Over the course of =
many years, the policies under which an LTA operates may undergo =
modification.  Thus, an evidence record may feature multiple indications =
of policies active at various points during the life of an archived data =
object." However, the ER does not contain such an information.
7. ltans-reqs-10 states on page 11: "A long-term archive service must be =
capable of providing evidence that can be used to demonstrate the =
integrity of data for which it is responsible from the time it received =
the data until the expiration of the archival period of the data". =
However, no data item is specified in ER to provide this evidence.This =
means that much work is still needed on the document to fulfill the =
requirements.

  =20

  Now, let us see what should be done. The following is obviously an =
unpolished strawman proposal.

  =20

  In order to reduce the number of time stamps, it is necessary to be =
able to aggregate data=20
  before applying a time stamp on it. For doing it, the following =
structure (close to the=20
  structure of ArchiveTimeStamp, but different) would fulfill the need).

  =20

     TimeStampedNode ::=3D SEQUENCE {

       digestAlgorithm        [0] AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL,

       archivalPolicy             ArchivalPolicy,

       archivalTimePeriod         ArchivalTimePeriod,

       cryptoMaintenancePolicy    CryptoMaintenancePolicy,

       reducedHashtree            SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree,

       timeStamp                  TimeStampToken }

  =20

     PartialHashtree ::=3D SEQUENCE OF OCTET STRING

  =20

     ArchivalPolicy::=3D OBJECT IDENTIFIER




     ArchivalTimePeriod ::=3D SEQUENCE {

          notBefore      GeneralizedTime,

          notAfter       GeneralizedTime }




  CryptoMaintenancePolicy would need more work to be defined, but =
basically=20
  would contain a sequence of algorithm identifiers with their =
parameters.


  =20

  The CryptoMaintenancePolicy applies to the data in the tree and to the =
crypto of=20
  the time stamp token.

  =20

  The hash included in the TimeStampToken is computed on the =
reducedHashtree element.

  =20

  If this structure is signed by an agent from an archival service, then =
it can be used=20
  to demonstrate that a given agent from an LTA has accepted to archive, =
under a given=20
  policy for a given time period, the data items that are under the hash =
tree.

  =20

  This means that TimeStampedNode must be the eContent of a CMS message =
signed by=20
  an LTA agent in order to form a SignedNode.

  =20

  Later on, the same, another or more LTA agents may need to add some =
other data to=20
  a signed Node, without loosing the previous time-stamp and signature.=20

  =20

  This leads to the following structure:

  =20

     EvidenceNode ::=3D SEQUENCE {

        version                        INTEGER { v1(1) } ,

        digestAlgorithms               SEQUENCE OF AlgorithmIdentifier,

        archivalPolicy                 ArchivalPolicy,

        archivalTimePeriod             ArchivalTimePeriod,

        cryptoMaintenancePolicy        CryptoMaintenancePolicy,

        evidenceRecord                 EvidenceRecord,

                                       -- the evidence record that =
serves=20

                                       -- for the construction

        signedNodeSequence             SignedNodeSequence   OPTIONAL,

                                       -- the elements that are added=20

                                       -- to the previous evidence

        timeStamp                      TimeStampToken }

  =20

  with:

  =20

     signedNodeSequence ::=3D SEQUENCE OF SignedNode

  =20

  The CryptoMaintenancePolicy applies to the previous evidence record, =
to all=20
  the data that are in the tree and to the crypto of the time stamp =
token.

  =20

  The hash included in the TimeStampToken is computed on the =
concatenation of the=20
  evidenceRecord element and of the signedNodeSequence element.

  =20

  This means that EvidenceNode must be the eContent of a CMS message =
signed by=20
  an LTA agent in order to form an EvidenceRecord.



  This new proposal fulfills the seven requirements mentioned here =
above.

  =20

  Denis

  =20


-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----

  Tony,

  I think Denis should provide additional details when calling for a =
working group item to be dropped, especially when making this request =
this late in the process with non-freely available documents as the =
basis.  However, I'll try to make the case in the other direction.

  I don't think it's simply a case of too many options that require =
profiling.  One motivation often cited during the development of ERS is =
support for aggregations of data.  This is represented in ERS via the =
reducedHashtree field in the ArchiveTimeStamp structure.  This field and =
the related ArchiveTimeStampChain and ArchiveTimeStampSequence =
structures allow handling of the aggregation when the initial timestamp =
is generated, when simple timestamp renewal is required as well as when =
simple timestamp renewal is not sufficient and the original data must be =
hashed again.

  The ISO spec uses the ExtRenewal extension for timestamp renewal.  =
This is roughly analogous to the timestamp renewal feature in ERS.  =
However, there does not seem to be sufficient support for cases where =
the hash algorithm is updated and the original data must be rehashed.  =
In ERS, when a hash algorithm update is necessary, the preceding =
timestamp tokens are hashed along with the original data.  In the ISO =
spec, an existing timestamp token is presented for renewal but the =
original data is not.  It may be possible to make this work using the =
extHash extension, but I don't see any description of this in the =
current spec (nor do I see any text that describes verification of the =
ExtRenewal extension).  I don't follow how the aggregation mechanisms in =
the ISO spec can be used to aggregate data for the initial timestamp =
well enough to compare them to ERS. =20

  ERS support for aggregation is more clearly stated and ERS provides =
more complete handling of renewal operations.  For these reasons, I =
think we should proceed with ERS instead of trying to enhance the ISO =
spec.

  Carl



-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
    From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com]=20
    Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 11:04 AM
    To: 'Carl Wallace'; 'Denis Pinkas'; ietf-smime@imc.org
    Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; 'Tobias Gondrom'; 'Russ Housley'
    Subject: RE: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: =
WG Last Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd


    Carl:

    I think Denis asks simply for the justification for the introduction =
of new technology to solve a problem which may already be solved with an =
existing ISO standard (which has already been published and is =
presumably more mature than what is being proposed).

    Denis notes (in his previous comment) that perhaps the ISO standard =
offers too many options and that perhaps a Profile of this ISO standard =
might be published as an RFC to tailor the ISO standard for the specific =
application(s) you have in mind.  In such a case the RFC should profile =
(see ISO/IEC TR10000) the ISO standard and not introduce new technology.

    Tony


    -----Original Message-----
    From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org =
[mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Carl Wallace
    Sent: January 11, 2007 10:16 AM
    To: Denis Pinkas; ietf-smime@imc.org
    Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; Tobias Gondrom; Russ Housley
    Subject: RE: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: =
WG Last Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd


    My response wasn't a reversal of the question but a request for =
details.  Folks on the list have previously discussed these =
specifications, including their use within an EvidenceRecord.  You made =
a sweeping comment that lacked any details and called for fairly drastic =
measures.  I simply asked for justification.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
      From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net]=20
      Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 9:46 AM
      To: Carl Wallace; ietf-smime@imc.org
      Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; Russ Housley; Tobias Gondrom
      Subject: Re: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: =
WG Last Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd


      Carl,

      Please do not reverse the question. ISO 18014-3 already exists. =
The WG has to justify why it would not fulfill its needs.
      I will refine my question: Why is a profile of ISO 18014-3 not =
adequate to fulfill the needs ?
      A profile would make sense, since ISO 18014-3 has many options.

      Denis

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML xmlns:o =3D "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.3020" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Denis</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Ddenis.pinkas@bull.net =
href=3D"mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net">Denis=20
  Pinkas</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dietf-smime@imc.org=20
  href=3D"mailto:ietf-smime@imc.org">ietf-smime@imc.org</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A =
title=3Dietf-ltans@imc.org=20
  href=3D"mailto:ietf-ltans@imc.org">ietf-ltans@imc.org</A> ; <A=20
  title=3Dhousley@vigilsec.com =
href=3D"mailto:housley@vigilsec.com">'Russ=20
  Housley'</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 15, 2007 =
6:59=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Cross review of =
draft ERS=20
  from LTANS WG until Jan 23 rd</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">I=20
  said in an earlier e-mail: =93The WG has to justify why it would not =
fulfill its=20
  needs=94. </SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">Carl=20
  has provided interesting information to explain the differences with =
ISO=20
  ISO-18014-3 </SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">and=20
  why ERS is different. The main advantage is the use of =93ordinary=94 =
time-stamps=20
  rather </SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">than=20
  time-stamps with specific extensions. However, this information should =
not be=20
  lost </SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">and=20
  be used to write&nbsp;an informative annex.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">There=20
  are indeed much more important topics. </SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">ERS=20
  is supposed to respond to draft-ietf-ltans-reqs-10.txt, isn=92it=20
  ?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">However,=20
  many of the requirements that are present in the requirements document =

  </SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">are=20
  not met by the current ERS draft. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">Here=20
  are a few examples&nbsp;:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P><PRE><FONT =
size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US">1.</SPAN><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> =
ltans-reqs-10 defines an Archival Period as =93The period during which =
an archived<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US">data object is preserved by a =
long-term archive service=94. How may a long term-archive =
<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US">service be held responsible of =
storing the data during that time-period, since <BR>the information to =
know the time period is not present in the ER =
?</SPAN></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</PRE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE><FONT =
size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><FONT =
size=3D3>Denis this is one of the key disagreement's you and I have with =
timestamping. There is NO need to keep that information online or =
mechanically provable in a methodology that remains consistant with any =
taks than proving the signature at the time of its signing in the =
technology available at the time of the =
signing.<BR></FONT></SPAN></FONT></PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><PRE><FONT =
size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</PRE><PRE><SPAN lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></o:p></SPAN></PRE><PRE><FONT size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US">2.</SPAN><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> ltans-reqs-10 defines a =
Cr!
 yp!
tographic Maintenance Policy. There is no corresponding <BR>element in =
ERS. How can a long term-archive service know which maintenance to =
apply, <BR>since the information to perform the maintenance correctly is =
not present in ER ?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></PRE>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P><PRE><FONT =
size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US">3.</SPAN><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> =
ltans-reqs-10 states on page 7: A long-term archive service provides =
evidence <BR>that may be used to demonstrate the existence of an =
archived data object at a given time <BR>and the integrity of the =
archived data object since that time. The ER is supposed <BR>to be the =
basic piece of data to support that evidence. However, it is not signed =
<BR>by the long term-archive service, thus it cannot be used =93to =
demonstrate the existence <BR>of an archived data object at a given time =
and the integrity of the archived data object <BR>since that =
time=94.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></PRE><PRE><SPAN lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></o:p></SPAN></PRE><PRE><FONT size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US">4.</SPAN><SPAN =
style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US" ng=3D"EN-US" la! !> ltans-reqs-10 =
adds on page 7: =93Additionally, the evidence identifies the LTA(s) =
<BR>that have participated in the preservation of the archived data =
object=94. However, <BR>ER does not contain the names of the LTA(s) that =
have participated in the preservation <BR>of the archived data =
object.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></PRE><PRE><SPAN lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></o:p></SPAN></PRE><PRE><FONT size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US">5.</SPAN><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> ltans-reqs-10 states on =
page 9: =93A long-term archive service must operate in accordance =
<BR>with a long-term archive service policy that defines characteristics =
of the implementation <BR>of the long-term archive service=94. However, =
ER does not contain a data item to support <BR>the =93long-term archive =
service policy=94. </SPAN></FONT></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE><FONT =
size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US">There  is =
no specification in the protocol drafts that these 'policies and control =
features' be a part of the mechanical processes of the LTANS service =
Denis...</SPAN></FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><PRE><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN"><o:p><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></o:p></SPAN></PRE><PRE><FONT size=3D2><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US">6.</SPAN><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> ltans-reqs-10 adds on =
page 10: =93 Over the course of many years, the policies under which =
<BR>an LTA operates may undergo modification.<SPAN =
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>Thus, an evidence record may =
feature multiple <BR>indications of policies active at various points =
during the life of an archived data object.=94 <BR>However, the ER does =
not contain such an information.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></PRE>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P><PRE><FONT =
size=3D2><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US">7.</SPAN><SPAN lang=3DEN-US style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> =
ltans-reqs-10 states on page 11: =93A long-term archive service must be =
capable of providing <BR>evidence that can be used to demonstrate the =
integrity of data for which it is responsible <BR>from the time it =
received the data until the expiration of the archival period of the =
data=94. <BR>However, no data item is specified in ER to provide this =
evidence.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></PRE><PRE><SPAN lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D"mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></o:p></SPAN></PRE>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">This=20
  means that much work is still needed on the document to fulfill the=20
  requirements.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">Now,=20
  let us see what should be done. The following is obviously an =
unpolished=20
  strawman proposal.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">In=20
  order to reduce the number of time stamps, it is necessary to be able =
to=20
  aggregate data <BR>before applying a time stamp on it. For doing it, =
the=20
  following structure (close to the <BR>structure of ArchiveTimeStamp, =
but=20
  different) would fulfill the need).<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>TimeStampedNode ::=3D =
SEQUENCE=20
  {<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</SPAN>digestAlgorithm=20
  <SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN>[0]=20
  AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</SPAN>archivalPolicy<SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;=20
  </SPAN>ArchivalPolicy,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN>archivalTimePeriod<SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN>ArchivalTimePeriod,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN>cryptoMaintenancePolicy<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;</SPAN>CryptoMaintenancePolicy,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</SPAN>reducedHashtree=20
  <SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN>SEQUENCE=20
  OF PartialHashtree,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</SPAN>timeStamp<SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN>TimeStampToke=
n=20
  }<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>PartialHashtree ::=3D =
SEQUENCE OF=20
  OCTET STRING<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">ArchivalPolicy</SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">::=3D OBJECT=20
  IDENTIFIER<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier =
New'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"></SPAN></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>ArchivalTimePeriod =
::=3D=20
  </SPAN><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier =
New'">SEQUENCE=20
  {<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =

  </SPAN>notBefore<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN>GeneralizedTime,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =

  </SPAN>notAfter<SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN>GeneralizedTime }<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">CryptoMaintenancePolicy=20
  would need more work to be defined, but basically <BR>would contain a =
sequence=20
  of algorithm identifiers with their parameters.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm =
0pt">&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">The=20
  CryptoMaintenancePolicy applies to the data in the tree and to the =
crypto of=20
  <BR>the time stamp token.</SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">The=20
  hash included in the TimeStampToken is computed on the reducedHashtree =

  element.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">If=20
  this structure is signed by an agent from an archival service, then it =
can be=20
  used <BR>to demonstrate that a given agent from an LTA has accepted to =

  archive, under a given <BR>policy for a given time period, the data =
items that=20
  are under the hash tree.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">This=20
  means that TimeStampedNode must be the eContent of a CMS message =
signed by=20
  <BR>an LTA agent in order to form a SignedNode.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">Later=20
  on, the same, another or more LTA agents may need to add some other =
data to=20
  <BR>a signed Node, without loosing the previous time-stamp and =
signature.=20
  <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">This=20
  leads to the following structure:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>EvidenceNode ::=3D =
SEQUENCE=20
  {<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</SPAN>version<SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN><SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN>INTEGER { v1(1) }=20
  ,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN>digestAlgorithms<SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN><SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN>SEQUENCE OF=20
  AlgorithmIdentifier,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN>archivalPolicy<SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN>ArchivalPolicy,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN>archivalTimePeriod<SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;=20
  </SPAN>ArchivalTimePeriod,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN>cryptoMaintenancePolicy<SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =

  </SPAN>CryptoMaintenancePolicy,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN>evidenceRecord<SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN>EvidenceRecord,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN>-- the evidence record =
that=20
  serves <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;=20
  </SPAN>-- for the construction<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  </SPAN>signedNodeSequence <SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN =

  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN =

  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN>SignedNodeSequence<SPAN =

  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</SPAN>OPTIONAL,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN>-- the elements =
that are=20
  added <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;=20
  </SPAN>-- to the previous evidence<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</SPAN>timeStamp<SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</SPAN><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN>TimeStampToken=20
  }<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">with:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>signedNodeSequence =
::=3D SEQUENCE=20
  OF SignedNode<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">The=20
  CryptoMaintenancePolicy applies to the previous evidence =
record,&nbsp;to all=20
  <BR>the data that are in the tree and to the crypto of the time stamp=20
  token.</SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">The=20
  hash included in the TimeStampToken is computed on the concatenation =
of the=20
  <BR>evidenceRecord element and of the signedNodeSequence=20
  element.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">This=20
  means that EvidenceNode must be the eContent of a CMS message signed =
by <BR>an=20
  LTA agent in order to form an EvidenceRecord.</SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US">This=20
  new&nbsp;proposal fulfills&nbsp;the seven requirements mentioned here=20
  above.</SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN><SPAN=20
  lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>Denis</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-US=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; =
mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
  <DIV>
  <HR>
  </DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D431170716-11012007>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D431170716-11012007><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Tony,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D431170716-11012007><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D431170716-11012007><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I think Denis should provide additional =
details when=20
  calling for a working group item to be dropped, especially when making =
this=20
  request this late in the process<SPAN class=3D451495016-11012007> =
</SPAN>with=20
  non-freely available documents as the basis.&nbsp; However, I'll try =
to make=20
  the case in the other direction.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D431170716-11012007><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D431170716-11012007><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I don't think it's simply a case of too many =
options that=20
  require profiling.&nbsp; One motivation often cited during the =
development of=20
  ERS is support for aggregations of data.&nbsp; This is represented in =
ERS via=20
  the reducedHashtree field in the ArchiveTimeStamp structure.&nbsp; =
This field=20
  and the related ArchiveTimeStampChain and ArchiveTimeStampSequence =
structures=20
  allow handling of the aggregation when the initial timestamp=20
  is&nbsp;generated, when&nbsp;simple timestamp renewal is&nbsp;required =
as well=20
  as when simple timestamp renewal is not sufficient and the original =
data must=20
  be hashed again.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN =
class=3D431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN=20
  class=3D431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN =
class=3D431170716-11012007><FONT=20
  face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D431170716-11012007><FONT =
face=3DArial><FONT=20
  color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2>The ISO spec uses the&nbsp;<SPAN=20
  class=3D451495016-11012007>E</SPAN>xt<SPAN=20
  class=3D451495016-11012007>R</SPAN>enewal&nbsp;<SPAN=20
  class=3D451495016-11012007>extension</SPAN> for timestamp =
renewal.&nbsp; This is=20
  roughly analogous to the&nbsp;timestamp renewal feature in ERS.&nbsp; =
However,=20
  there does not seem to be sufficient support for cases where the hash=20
  algorithm is updated and the original data must be rehashed.&nbsp; In =
ERS,=20
  when a hash algorithm update is necessary, the preceding timestamp =
tokens are=20
  hashed along with the original data.&nbsp; In the ISO spec, an =
existing=20
  timestamp token is presented for renewal but the original data is =
not.&nbsp;=20
  It may be possible to make this work using the extHash extension, but =
I don't=20
  see any description of this in the current spec (nor do I see any text =
that=20
  describes verification of the&nbsp;<SPAN=20
  class=3D451495016-11012007>E</SPAN>xt<SPAN=20
  class=3D451495016-11012007>R</SPAN>enewal extension).&nbsp; =
I&nbsp;<SPAN=20
  class=3D451495016-11012007>don't </SPAN>follow how the aggregation =
mechanisms in=20
  the ISO spec can be used to aggregate data for the initial timestamp =
well=20
  enough to compare them to =
ERS.&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D431170716-11012007><FONT =
face=3DArial><FONT=20
  color=3D#0000ff><FONT =
size=3D2></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D431170716-11012007><FONT =
face=3DArial><FONT=20
  color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN class=3D451495016-11012007>ERS =
support for=20
  aggregation is more clearly stated and&nbsp;ERS provides more complete =

  handling of renewal operations.&nbsp; For these reasons, I think we =
should=20
  proceed with ERS instead of&nbsp;trying to enhance&nbsp;the ISO=20
  spec.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN =
class=3D431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN=20
  class=3D431170716-11012007><SPAN =
class=3D451495016-11012007></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN=20
  class=3D431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN =
class=3D431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN=20
  class=3D431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN =
class=3D431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN=20
  class=3D431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN =
class=3D431170716-11012007><SPAN=20
  class=3D451495016-11012007></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN =
class=3D431170716-11012007><FONT=20
  face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D431170716-11012007><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
  color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Carl</FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft>
    <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
    <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Tony Capel =
[mailto:capel@comgate.com]=20
    <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 11, 2007 11:04 AM<BR><B>To:</B> =
'Carl=20
    Wallace'; 'Denis Pinkas'; ietf-smime@imc.org<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
    ietf-ltans@imc.org; 'Tobias Gondrom'; 'Russ =
Housley'<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE:=20
    RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca=20
    ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
    <DIV></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D929275615-11012007>Carl:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D929275615-11012007></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D929275615-11012007>I=20
    think Denis asks simply for the justification for the introduction=20
    of&nbsp;new technology to solve a problem which may already be =
solved with=20
    an existing ISO standard (which has already been published and is =
presumably=20
    more mature than what is being proposed).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D929275615-11012007></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D929275615-11012007>Denis&nbsp;notes (in his previous =
comment) that=20
    perhaps the ISO standard offers too many options and that perhaps a =
Profile=20
    of this ISO standard might be published as an RFC to tailor the ISO =
standard=20
    for the specific application(s) you have in mind.&nbsp; In such a =
case the=20
    RFC should profile (see ISO/IEC TR10000) the ISO standard and not =
introduce=20
    new technology.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D929275615-11012007><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
    size=3D2>Tony</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
    <DIV></DIV>
    <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
    face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
    owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] =
<B>On=20
    Behalf Of </B>Carl Wallace<BR><B>Sent:</B> January 11, 2007 10:16=20
    AM<BR><B>To:</B> Denis Pinkas; ietf-smime@imc.org<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
    ietf-ltans@imc.org; Tobias Gondrom; Russ Housley<BR><B>Subject:</B> =
RE: RE:=20
    RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca=20
    ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D901581015-11012007><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
    color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>My response&nbsp;wasn't a reversal of the =
question but=20
    a request for details.&nbsp; Folks on the list have previously =
discussed=20
    these specifications, including their use within an =
EvidenceRecord.&nbsp;=20
    You made a sweeping comment that lacked any details and called for =
fairly=20
    drastic measures.&nbsp; I simply asked for=20
    justification.</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff =
2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft>
      <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
      <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Denis Pinkas=20
      [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January =
11, 2007=20
      9:46 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Carl Wallace; =
ietf-smime@imc.org<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
      ietf-ltans@imc.org; Russ Housley; Tobias =
Gondrom<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:=20
      RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca=20
      ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
      <DIV></DIV>
      <DIV>Carl,</DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV>Please do not reverse the question. ISO 18014-3 already =
exists. The=20
      WG has to justify why it would not fulfill its needs.</DIV>
      <DIV>I will refine my question: Why is a profile of ISO 18014-3 =
not=20
      adequate to fulfill the needs ?</DIV>
      <DIV>A profile would make sense, since ISO 18014-3 has&nbsp;many=20
      options.</DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV>Denis</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <HR>
</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 15:59:02 +0100
From: "Denis Pinkas" <denis.pinkas@bull.net>
To: "ietf-smime@imc.org" <ietf-smime@imc.org>
Cc: "ietf-ltans@imc.org" <ietf-ltans@imc.org>, "'Russ Housley'" <housley@vigilsec.com>
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--=====003_Dragon810844471340_=====
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1555" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">I 
said in an earlier e-mail: “The WG has to justify why it would not fulfill its 
needs”. </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">Carl 
has provided interesting information to explain the differences with ISO 
ISO-18014-3 </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">and 
why ERS is different. The main advantage is the use of “ordinary” time-stamps 
rather </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">than 
time-stamps with specific extensions. However, this information should not be 
lost </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">and 
be used to write&nbsp;an informative annex.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = 
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">There 
are indeed much more important topics. </SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">ERS 
is supposed to respond to draft-ietf-ltans-reqs-10.txt, isn’it 
?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">However, 
many of the requirements that are present in the requirements document 
</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">are 
not met by the current ERS draft. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">Here 
are a few examples&nbsp;:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P><PRE><FONT size=2><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">1.</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> ltans-reqs-10 defines an Archival Period as “The period during which an archived<BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=2><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">data object is preserved by a long-term archive service”. How may a long term-archive <BR></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=2><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">service be held responsible of storing the data during that time-period, since <BR>the information to know the time period is not present in the ER ?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></PRE><PRE><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p><FONT size=2></FONT></o:p></SPAN></PRE><PRE><FONT size=2><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">2.</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> ltans-reqs-10 defines a Cryp!
tographic Maintenance Policy. There is no corresponding <BR>element in ERS. How can a long term-archive service know which maintenance to apply, <BR>since the information to perform the maintenance correctly is not present in ER ?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></PRE>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P><PRE><FONT size=2><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">3.</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> ltans-reqs-10 states on page 7: A long-term archive service provides evidence <BR>that may be used to demonstrate the existence of an archived data object at a given time <BR>and the integrity of the archived data object since that time. The ER is supposed <BR>to be the basic piece of data to support that evidence. However, it is not signed <BR>by the long term-archive service, thus it cannot be used “to demonstrate the existence <BR>of an archived data object at a given time and the integrity of the archived data object <BR>since that time”.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></PRE><PRE><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p><FONT size=2></FONT></o:p></SPAN></PRE><PRE><FONT size=2><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">4.</SPAN><SPAN la!
ng=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> ltans-reqs-10 adds on page 7: “Additionally, the evidence identifies the LTA(s) <BR>that have participated in the preservation of the archived data object”. However, <BR>ER does not contain the names of the LTA(s) that have participated in the preservation <BR>of the archived data object.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></PRE><PRE><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p><FONT size=2></FONT></o:p></SPAN></PRE><PRE><FONT size=2><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">5.</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> ltans-reqs-10 states on page 9: “A long-term archive service must operate in accordance <BR>with a long-term archive service policy that defines characteristics of the implementation <BR>of the long-term archive service”. However, ER does not contain a data item to support <BR>the “long-term archive service policy”. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></PRE><PRE><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-U!
S"><o:p><FONT size=2></FONT></o:p></SPAN></PRE><PRE><FONT size=2><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">6.</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> ltans-reqs-10 adds on page 10: “ Over the course of many years, the policies under which <BR>an LTA operates may undergo modification.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </SPAN>Thus, an evidence record may feature multiple <BR>indications of policies active at various points during the life of an archived data object.” <BR>However, the ER does not contain such an information.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></PRE>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P><PRE><FONT size=2><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US">7.</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"> ltans-reqs-10 states on page 11: “A long-term archive service must be capable of providing <BR>evidence that can be used to demonstrate the integrity of data for which it is responsible <BR>from the time it received the data until the expiration of the archival period of the data”. <BR>However, no data item is specified in ER to provide this evidence.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></PRE><PRE><SPAN lang=EN-US style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p><FONT size=2></FONT></o:p></SPAN></PRE>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">This 
means that much work is still needed on the document to fulfill the 
requirements.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">Now, 
let us see what should be done. The following is obviously an unpolished 
strawman proposal.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">In 
order to reduce the number of time stamps, it is necessary to be able to 
aggregate data <BR>before applying a time stamp on it. For doing it, the 
following structure (close to the <BR>structure of ArchiveTimeStamp, but 
different) would fulfill the need).<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>TimeStampedNode ::= SEQUENCE 
{<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>digestAlgorithm <SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN>[0] 
AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>archivalPolicy<SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
</SPAN>ArchivalPolicy,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
</SPAN>archivalTimePeriod<SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
</SPAN>ArchivalTimePeriod,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
</SPAN>cryptoMaintenancePolicy<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp; 
</SPAN><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN>CryptoMaintenancePolicy,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>reducedHashtree <SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN>SEQUENCE 
OF PartialHashtree,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>timeStamp<SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN>TimeStampToken 
}<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>PartialHashtree ::= SEQUENCE OF 
OCTET STRING<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p><SPAN 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">ArchivalPolicy</SPAN><SPAN 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">::= OBJECT 
IDENTIFIER<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes"></SPAN></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>ArchivalTimePeriod ::= 
</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'">SEQUENCE 
{<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
</SPAN>notBefore<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
</SPAN>GeneralizedTime,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'"><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
</SPAN>notAfter<SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
</SPAN>GeneralizedTime }<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">CryptoMaintenancePolicy 
would need more work to be defined, but basically <BR>would contain a sequence 
of algorithm identifiers with their parameters.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">The 
CryptoMaintenancePolicy applies to the data in the tree and to the crypto of 
<BR>the time stamp token.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">The 
hash included in the TimeStampToken is computed on the reducedHashtree 
element.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">If 
this structure is signed by an agent from an archival service, then it can be 
used <BR>to demonstrate that a given agent from an LTA has accepted to archive, 
under a given <BR>policy for a given time period, the data items that are under 
the hash tree.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">This 
means that TimeStampedNode must be the eContent of a CMS message signed by 
<BR>an LTA agent in order to form a SignedNode.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">Later 
on, the same, another or more LTA agents may need to add some other data to 
<BR>a signed Node, without loosing the previous time-stamp and signature. 
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">This 
leads to the following structure:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>EvidenceNode ::= SEQUENCE 
{<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>version<SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
</SPAN><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN>INTEGER { v1(1) } ,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
</SPAN>digestAlgorithms<SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
</SPAN><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN>SEQUENCE OF 
AlgorithmIdentifier,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
</SPAN>archivalPolicy<SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
</SPAN>ArchivalPolicy,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
</SPAN>archivalTimePeriod<SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
</SPAN>ArchivalTimePeriod,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
</SPAN>cryptoMaintenancePolicy<SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
</SPAN>CryptoMaintenancePolicy,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
</SPAN>evidenceRecord<SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
</SPAN><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN>EvidenceRecord,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN>-- the evidence record that serves 
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
</SPAN>-- for the construction<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
</SPAN>signedNodeSequence <SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN>SignedNodeSequence<SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>OPTIONAL,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN>-- the elements that are 
added <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
</SPAN>-- to the previous evidence<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>timeStamp<SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN>TimeStampToken 
}<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">with:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><SPAN 
style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN>signedNodeSequence ::= SEQUENCE OF 
SignedNode<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">The 
CryptoMaintenancePolicy applies to the previous evidence record,&nbsp;to all 
<BR>the data that are in the tree and to the crypto of the time stamp 
token.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">The 
hash included in the TimeStampToken is computed on the concatenation of the 
<BR>evidenceRecord element and of the signedNodeSequence 
element.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">This 
means that EvidenceNode must be the eContent of a CMS message signed by <BR>an 
LTA agent in order to form an EvidenceRecord.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">This 
new&nbsp;proposal fulfills&nbsp;the seven requirements mentioned here 
above.</SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN><SPAN 
lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p>Denis</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><SPAN lang=EN-US 
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><o:p></o:p></SPAN>&nbsp;</P></DIV>
<DIV>
<HR>
</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=431170716-11012007>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=431170716-11012007><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff size=2>Tony,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=431170716-11012007><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=431170716-11012007><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff size=2>I think Denis should provide additional details when 
calling for a working group item to be dropped, especially when making this 
request this late in the process<SPAN class=451495016-11012007> </SPAN>with 
non-freely available documents as the basis.&nbsp; However, I'll try to make the 
case in the other direction.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=431170716-11012007><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=431170716-11012007><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff size=2>I don't think it's simply a case of too many options that 
require profiling.&nbsp; One motivation often cited during the development of 
ERS is support for aggregations of data.&nbsp; This is represented in ERS via 
the reducedHashtree field in the ArchiveTimeStamp structure.&nbsp; This field 
and the related ArchiveTimeStampChain and ArchiveTimeStampSequence structures 
allow handling of the aggregation when the initial timestamp is&nbsp;generated, 
when&nbsp;simple timestamp renewal is&nbsp;required as well as when simple 
timestamp renewal is not sufficient and the original data must be hashed 
again.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN 
class=431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN class=431170716-11012007><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=431170716-11012007><FONT face=Arial><FONT 
color=#0000ff><FONT size=2>The ISO spec uses the&nbsp;<SPAN 
class=451495016-11012007>E</SPAN>xt<SPAN 
class=451495016-11012007>R</SPAN>enewal&nbsp;<SPAN 
class=451495016-11012007>extension</SPAN> for timestamp renewal.&nbsp; This is 
roughly analogous to the&nbsp;timestamp renewal feature in ERS.&nbsp; However, 
there does not seem to be sufficient support for cases where the hash algorithm 
is updated and the original data must be rehashed.&nbsp; In ERS, when a hash 
algorithm update is necessary, the preceding timestamp tokens are hashed along 
with the original data.&nbsp; In the ISO spec, an existing timestamp token is 
presented for renewal but the original data is not.&nbsp; It may be possible to 
make this work using the extHash extension, but I don't see any description of 
this in the current spec (nor do I see any text that describes verification of 
the&nbsp;<SPAN class=451495016-11012007>E</SPAN>xt<SPAN 
class=451495016-11012007>R</SPAN>enewal extension).&nbsp; I&nbsp;<SPAN 
class=451495016-11012007>don't </SPAN>follow how the aggregation mechanisms in 
the ISO spec can be used to aggregate data for the initial timestamp well enough 
to compare them to ERS.&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=431170716-11012007><FONT face=Arial><FONT 
color=#0000ff><FONT size=2></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=431170716-11012007><FONT face=Arial><FONT 
color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN class=451495016-11012007>ERS support for 
aggregation is more clearly stated and&nbsp;ERS provides more complete handling 
of renewal operations.&nbsp; For these reasons, I think we should proceed with 
ERS instead of&nbsp;trying to enhance&nbsp;the ISO 
spec.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN 
class=431170716-11012007><SPAN class=451495016-11012007></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN 
class=431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN class=431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN 
class=431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN class=431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN 
class=431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN class=431170716-11012007><SPAN 
class=451495016-11012007></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=431170716-11012007><FONT 
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=431170716-11012007><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff size=2>Carl</FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
  <HR tabIndex=-1>
  <FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com] 
  <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 11, 2007 11:04 AM<BR><B>To:</B> 'Carl 
  Wallace'; 'Denis Pinkas'; ietf-smime@imc.org<BR><B>Cc:</B> ietf-ltans@imc.org; 
  'Tobias Gondrom'; 'Russ Housley'<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: RE: RE: Cross review 
  of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- 
  untilJan 23rd<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
  class=929275615-11012007>Carl:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
  class=929275615-11012007></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929275615-11012007>I 
  think Denis asks simply for the justification for the introduction of&nbsp;new 
  technology to solve a problem which may already be solved with an existing ISO 
  standard (which has already been published and is presumably more mature than 
  what is being proposed).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
  class=929275615-11012007></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
  class=929275615-11012007>Denis&nbsp;notes (in his previous comment) that 
  perhaps the ISO standard offers too many options and that perhaps a Profile of 
  this ISO standard might be published as an RFC to tailor the ISO standard for 
  the specific application(s) you have in mind.&nbsp; In such a case the RFC 
  should profile (see ISO/IEC TR10000) the ISO standard and not introduce new 
  technology.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=929275615-11012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>Tony</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <P><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT 
  face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> 
  owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] <B>On 
  Behalf Of </B>Carl Wallace<BR><B>Sent:</B> January 11, 2007 10:16 
  AM<BR><B>To:</B> Denis Pinkas; ietf-smime@imc.org<BR><B>Cc:</B> 
  ietf-ltans@imc.org; Tobias Gondrom; Russ Housley<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: RE: 
  RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca 
  ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=901581015-11012007><FONT face=Arial 
  color=#0000ff size=2>My response&nbsp;wasn't a reversal of the question but a 
  request for details.&nbsp; Folks on the list have previously discussed these 
  specifications, including their use within an EvidenceRecord.&nbsp; You made a 
  sweeping comment that lacked any details and called for fairly drastic 
  measures.&nbsp; I simply asked for justification.</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE 
  style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
    <HR tabIndex=-1>
    <FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Denis Pinkas 
    [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 11, 2007 
    9:46 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Carl Wallace; ietf-smime@imc.org<BR><B>Cc:</B> 
    ietf-ltans@imc.org; Russ Housley; Tobias Gondrom<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: RE: 
    RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca 
    ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
    <DIV></DIV>
    <DIV>Carl,</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Please do not reverse the question. ISO 18014-3 already exists. The WG 
    has to justify why it would not fulfill its needs.</DIV>
    <DIV>I will refine my question: Why is a profile of ISO 18014-3 not adequate 
    to fulfill the needs ?</DIV>
    <DIV>A profile would make sense, since ISO 18014-3 has&nbsp;many 
    options.</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Denis</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<HR>
</BODY></HTML>

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Subject: RE: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG  - RE: WG Last Call:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 19:19:53 +0100
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From: "Tobias Gondrom" <tgondrom@opentext.com>
To: "Carl Wallace" <CWallace@cygnacom.com>, "Tony Capel" <capel@comgate.com>, "Denis Pinkas" <denis.pinkas@bull.net>, <ietf-smime@imc.org>
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Tony and Denis,

=20

about 12 months LTANS investigated and discussed the relationship and
use of other timestamps from the ISO-18014 family.=20

The result was that ISO-18014 timestamps/tokens could be used instead of
the RFC-3161 timestamps within the ERS structure.=20

18014-3 definitely can not replace or even be directly compared to ERS -
both specs refer to different goals and technical concepts.=20

It would be like comparing apples and oranges, to use a metaphor (for a
comparison which is not valid).=20

=20

Tobias

=20

=20

=20

________________________________

From: Carl Wallace [mailto:CWallace@cygnacom.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 6:08 PM
To: Tony Capel; 'Denis Pinkas'; ietf-smime@imc.org
Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; Tobias Gondrom; 'Russ Housley'
Subject: RE: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG
Last Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd

=20

Tony,

=20

I think Denis should provide additional details when calling for a
working group item to be dropped, especially when making this request
this late in the process with non-freely available documents as the
basis.  However, I'll try to make the case in the other direction.

=20

I don't think it's simply a case of too many options that require
profiling.  One motivation often cited during the development of ERS is
support for aggregations of data.  This is represented in ERS via the
reducedHashtree field in the ArchiveTimeStamp structure.  This field and
the related ArchiveTimeStampChain and ArchiveTimeStampSequence
structures allow handling of the aggregation when the initial timestamp
is generated, when simple timestamp renewal is required as well as when
simple timestamp renewal is not sufficient and the original data must be
hashed again.

=20

The ISO spec uses the ExtRenewal extension for timestamp renewal.  This
is roughly analogous to the timestamp renewal feature in ERS.  However,
there does not seem to be sufficient support for cases where the hash
algorithm is updated and the original data must be rehashed.  In ERS,
when a hash algorithm update is necessary, the preceding timestamp
tokens are hashed along with the original data.  In the ISO spec, an
existing timestamp token is presented for renewal but the original data
is not.  It may be possible to make this work using the extHash
extension, but I don't see any description of this in the current spec
(nor do I see any text that describes verification of the ExtRenewal
extension).  I don't follow how the aggregation mechanisms in the ISO
spec can be used to aggregate data for the initial timestamp well enough
to compare them to ERS. =20

=20

ERS support for aggregation is more clearly stated and ERS provides more
complete handling of renewal operations.  For these reasons, I think we
should proceed with ERS instead of trying to enhance the ISO spec.

=20

Carl

	=20

=09
________________________________


	From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com]=20
	Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 11:04 AM
	To: 'Carl Wallace'; 'Denis Pinkas'; ietf-smime@imc.org
	Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; 'Tobias Gondrom'; 'Russ Housley'
	Subject: RE: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG -
RE: WG Last Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd

	Carl:

	=20

	I think Denis asks simply for the justification for the
introduction of new technology to solve a problem which may already be
solved with an existing ISO standard (which has already been published
and is presumably more mature than what is being proposed).

	=20

	Denis notes (in his previous comment) that perhaps the ISO
standard offers too many options and that perhaps a Profile of this ISO
standard might be published as an RFC to tailor the ISO standard for the
specific application(s) you have in mind.  In such a case the RFC should
profile (see ISO/IEC TR10000) the ISO standard and not introduce new
technology.

	=20

	Tony

	=20

	-----Original Message-----
	From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org
[mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Carl Wallace
	Sent: January 11, 2007 10:16 AM
	To: Denis Pinkas; ietf-smime@imc.org
	Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; Tobias Gondrom; Russ Housley
	Subject: RE: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG -
RE: WG Last Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd

	My response wasn't a reversal of the question but a request for
details.  Folks on the list have previously discussed these
specifications, including their use within an EvidenceRecord.  You made
a sweeping comment that lacked any details and called for fairly drastic
measures.  I simply asked for justification.

		=20

	=09
________________________________


		From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net]=20
		Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 9:46 AM
		To: Carl Wallace; ietf-smime@imc.org
		Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; Russ Housley; Tobias Gondrom
		Subject: Re: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from
LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd

		Carl,

		=20

		Please do not reverse the question. ISO 18014-3 already
exists. The WG has to justify why it would not fulfill its needs.

		I will refine my question: Why is a profile of ISO
18014-3 not adequate to fulfill the needs ?

		A profile would make sense, since ISO 18014-3 has many
options.

		=20

		Denis


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<body lang=3DDE link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple>

<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Tony and =
Denis,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>about 12 months =
LTANS
investigated and discussed the relationship and use of other timestamps =
from
the ISO-18014 family. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The result was =
that
ISO-18014 timestamps/tokens could be used instead of the RFC-3161 =
timestamps within
the ERS structure. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>18014-3 =
definitely can not
replace or even be directly compared to ERS &#8211; both specs refer to =
different
goals and technical concepts. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>It would be like
comparing apples and oranges, to use a metaphor (for a comparison which =
is not
valid). <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Tobias<o:p></o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm =
0cm 4.0pt'>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</spa=
n></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
Carl Wallace [mailto:CWallace@cygnacom.com] <br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, January =
11, 2007
6:08 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Tony Capel; 'Denis =
Pinkas';
ietf-smime@imc.org<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">ietf-ltans@imc.org</st1:PersonName>;
<st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">Tobias Gondrom</st1:PersonName>; 'Russ =
Housley'<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: RE: RE: =
Cross review
of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca =
ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt-
untilJan 23rd</span></font><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Tony,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I think Denis should provide =
additional
details when calling for a working group item to be dropped, especially =
when
making this request this late in the process with non-freely available
documents as the basis.&nbsp; However, I'll try to make the case in the =
other
direction.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I don't think it's simply a case of =
too
many options that require profiling.&nbsp; One motivation often cited =
during
the development of ERS is support for aggregations of data.&nbsp; This =
is
represented in ERS via the reducedHashtree field in the ArchiveTimeStamp
structure.&nbsp; This field and the related ArchiveTimeStampChain and
ArchiveTimeStampSequence structures allow handling of the aggregation =
when the
initial timestamp is&nbsp;generated, when&nbsp;simple timestamp renewal =
is&nbsp;required
as well as when simple timestamp renewal is not sufficient and the =
original
data must be hashed again.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>The ISO spec uses
the&nbsp;ExtRenewal&nbsp;extension for timestamp renewal.&nbsp; This is =
roughly
analogous to the&nbsp;timestamp renewal feature in ERS.&nbsp; However, =
there
does not seem to be sufficient support for cases where the hash =
algorithm is
updated and the original data must be rehashed.&nbsp; In ERS, when a =
hash
algorithm update is necessary, the preceding timestamp tokens are hashed =
along
with the original data.&nbsp; In the ISO spec, an existing timestamp =
token is
presented for renewal but the original data is not.&nbsp; It may be =
possible to
make this work using the extHash extension, but I don't see any =
description of
this in the current spec (nor do I see any text that describes =
verification of
the&nbsp;ExtRenewal extension).&nbsp; I&nbsp;don't follow how the =
aggregation
mechanisms in the ISO spec can be used to aggregate data for the initial
timestamp well enough to compare them to =
ERS.&nbsp;&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>ERS support for aggregation is more =
clearly
stated and&nbsp;ERS provides more complete handling of renewal
operations.&nbsp; For these reasons, I think we should proceed with ERS =
instead
of&nbsp;trying to enhance&nbsp;the ISO =
spec.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Carl</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue =
1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'=
>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabIndex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><font size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><span
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</spa=
n></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com] <br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, January =
11, 2007
11:04 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">'Carl
 Wallace'</st1:PersonName>; 'Denis Pinkas'; ietf-smime@imc.org<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">ietf-ltans@imc.org</st1:PersonName>;
'<st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">Tobias Gondrom</st1:PersonName>'; 'Russ =
Housley'<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: RE: RE: =
Cross review
of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca =
ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt-
untilJan 23rd</span></font><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Carl:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I think Denis asks simply for the
justification for the introduction of&nbsp;new technology to solve a =
problem
which may already be solved with an existing ISO standard (which has =
already
been published and is presumably more mature than what is being =
proposed).</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Denis&nbsp;notes (in his previous =
comment)
that perhaps the ISO standard offers too many options and that perhaps a
Profile of this ISO standard might be published as an RFC to tailor the =
ISO
standard for the specific application(s) you have in mind.&nbsp; In such =
a case
the RFC should profile (see ISO/IEC TR10000) the ISO standard and not =
introduce
new technology.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Tony</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><span
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> =
owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org
[mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of </span></b>Carl Wallace<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> January 11, 2007 =
10:16 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Denis Pinkas;
ietf-smime@imc.org<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">ietf-ltans@imc.org</st1:PersonName>;
<st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">Tobias Gondrom</st1:PersonName>; Russ =
Housley<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: RE: RE: =
Cross review
of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca =
ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt-
untilJan 23rd</span></font><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>My response&nbsp;wasn't a reversal =
of the
question but a request for details.&nbsp; Folks on the list have =
previously
discussed these specifications, including their use within an =
EvidenceRecord.&nbsp;
You made a sweeping comment that lacked any details and called for =
fairly
drastic measures.&nbsp; I simply asked for =
justification.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue =
1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'=
>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabIndex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><font size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><span
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</spa=
n></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
Denis Pinkas [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net] <br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, January =
11, 2007
9:46 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Carl Wallace; =
ietf-smime@imc.org<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">ietf-ltans@imc.org</st1:PersonName>;
Russ Housley; <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">Tobias =
Gondrom</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: RE: RE: =
Cross review
of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca =
ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt-
untilJan 23rd</span></font><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Carl,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Please do not reverse the question. ISO 18014-3 already exists. =
The WG
has to justify why it would not fulfill its =
needs.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>I will refine my question: Why is a profile of ISO 18014-3 not =
adequate
to fulfill the needs ?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>A profile would make sense, since ISO 18014-3 has&nbsp;many =
options.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Denis<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</blockquote>

</blockquote>

</div>

</div>

</body>

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Subject: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG  - RE: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- until Jan 23rd
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 19:02:01 +0100
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From: "Tobias Gondrom" <tgondrom@opentext.com>
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Hi Denis,=20

=20

Thank you for your time and the review. As Carl already commented on
most of your comments, and I fully agree with him, I will only add a few
things:

=20

1. At first to set one thing straight:

The ERS document has been discussed extensively over the last two years
and there have been literally hundreds of emails with comments and
discussion about it on the mailing-list and there are world wide several
companies who already implemented ERS some months ago (based o the draft
versions 5-8 which are very similar to version 9). So I can only assume
that you are not talking about ERS but about validate or ari, which are
like add-ons to explain ERS further but still very young  - those two
documents documents are NOT in WGLC - only ERS!

(note: the work on the next version of validate with the new second
author is currently in progress and a new version should be ready in
about 3-4 weeks.)

=20

2. I will propose to LTANS improvements according to the last two
comments in your review:=20

a) make the separation of the protection mechanisms clearer=20

> -     the key of a Time-Stamping Unit has been compromised,=20
> -     an asymmetric algorithm has been broken for a given key size,=20
> -     a hash algorithm exhibits collisions.=20
and

b) clarify whether Appendix A's annex is informative or normative and
explain the benefits of including an EvidenceRecord as an unsigned
attribute.

=20

So again also from my side, thank you for your review.

=20

            Tobias

=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

________________________________

From: Carl Wallace [mailto:CWallace@cygnacom.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 2:00 PM
To: Denis Pinkas; ietf-smime@imc.org
Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; Russ Housley; Tobias Gondrom
Subject: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Call:
draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- until Jan 23rd

=20

Comments inline...=20

> From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net]=20
> Subject: Re: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG=20
> Last Call: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- until Jan 23rd=20
>=20
>=20
> Nearly no comments were sent on the LTANS mailing list on=20
> these documents.=20

There is just one document that has been submitted for working group
last call.=20

> It may be questionable why. The fact is that these documents=20
> are badly written, and thus it takes an enormous amount of=20
> time to attempt to understand them.=20
>=20
> Even though, most readers will fail, but will not dare to=20
> report that they did.=20
> I am unsure that I understood them, but I dare to report it.=20
>=20
> This draft and its companion documents namely=20
> draft-ietf-ltans-ari-00 and draft-ietf-ltans-validate-00=20
> raise a number of questions to be solved.=20

These two drafts were prepared quickly in advance of the last working
group meeting.  During the meeting, a call was made for additional
co-authors to help clarify and complete the documents.  One person has
joined Tobias in this effort but no follow-up drafts have been released
yet.

> Let us look now at the details of ERS.=20
>=20
> No ASN.1 compiler has been used to validate the syntax,=20
> otherwise, it would have been noticed that there is an=20
> obvious ASN.1 error on EvidenceRecord.=20

The ASN.1 was changed as a result of comments during the previous
working group last call.  Minor errors can be corrected without much
cause for alarm.  I assume in this case you are referring to the missing
's' at the end of EncryptionInfo.  Also, the id-EvidenceRecord-Internal
and id-EvidenceRecord-External values are missing OBJECT IDENTIFIER. =20

>=20
>    EvidenceRecord ::=3D SEQUENCE {=20
>       version                   INTEGER { v1(1) } ,=20
>       digestAlgorithms          SEQUENCE OF AlgorithmIdentifier,=20
>       cryptoInfos               [0] CryptoInfos OPTIONAL,=20
>       encryptionInfo            [1] EncryptionInfo OPTIONAL,=20
>       archiveTimeStampSequence  ArchiveTimeStampSequence,=20
>       ...=20
>       }=20
>=20
> Later on the text defines ArchiveTimeStampSequence as:=20
>=20
>    ArchiveTimeStampSequence ::=3D SEQUENCE OF=20
>                                 ArchiveTimeStampChain and=20
>=20
>    ArchiveTimeStampChain ::=3D SEQUENCE OF ArchiveTimeStamp=20
>=20
> and=20
>=20
>    ArchiveTimeStamp ::=3D SEQUENCE {=20
>      digestAlgorithm [0] AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL,=20
>      reducedHashtree [1] SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree OPTIONAL,=20
>      timeStamp       ContentInfo}=20
>=20
>    PartialHashtree ::=3D SEQUENCE OF OCTET STRING=20
>=20
> Note that this information is spread all around the document,=20
> rather than presented in sequence which does not ease its reading.=20
>=20
> ContentInfo is supposed to carry a TST. This means that=20
> timeStamp should be defined as TimeStampToken rather than ContentInfo.


timeStamp was defined as a ContentInfo to allow a type other than
TimeStampToken to be used. =20

>=20
> There is no explanation in section 4.1 (top of page 11) to=20
> know on which data the digest contained in the TimeStampToken=20
> is computed.=20

This info appears in Section 4 (middle of page 10): "The root hash
value, which represents unambiguously all data objects, is timestamped."

>=20
> If another kind of time-stamp token would need to be carried,=20
> the syntax would need to be changed. This comes into=20
> contradiction with the following sentence :=20
>=20
>    Other types of timestamp MAY be used, if they contain time data,=20
>    timestamped data and a cryptographically secure=20
> confirmation from the=20
>    TSA of these data.=20

See above.=20

>=20
> CryptoInfos from EvidenceRecord should be suppressed, since=20
> it is not proven that this additional item will ever be=20
> useful: encryption techniques may be different for each data=20
> item and thus cannot apply globally at the level of an EvidenceRecord.

> EncryptionInfo should be suppressed too. No interoperability=20
> can be obtained on these two fields using this specification.=20

This comment was made during a previous last call and resulted in
Tobias' posting to the list a few instances of structures that could be
conveyed in these fields.  These could be defined in a peer document or
defined in this draft.

 =20
> ArchiveTimeStampSequence is a sequence of=20
> ArchiveTimeStampChain which is itself a sequence of=20
> ArchiveTimeStamp. However, there is no way to make a=20
> difference between an ArchiveTimeStampChain and an=20
> ArchiveTimeStampSequence.=20

The two are not used interchangably.  Why is this a problem?=20
 =20
> If within an EvidenceRecord, one element within of an=20
> archiveTimeStampSequence is suppressed (e.g. a=20
> ArchiveTimeStamp) this is not detectable. What is the real=20
> value of the EvidenceRecord structure ? One would expect that=20
> an EvidenceRecord includes a time stamp. However, it does not not.=20

Why would one element be suppressed?  What would you want to have happen
in this case?  As-is, verification would fail.  I have commented
previously that it might be better if the chain supported shallow
verification, which would enable you to suppress a contiguous set of
elements from the beginning of the chain up to the point from which
verification was desired.  There was no support for making a change
along these lines, and there seemed to be no real need to have this
feature. =20

What do you mean the EvidenceRecord does not include a timestamp?  It
includes ArchiveTimeStampSequence, which may have one or more
timestamps.

 =20
> The current draft does not allow to apply the processing=20
> recursively. Having constructed one EvidenceRecord (that=20
> would include a time stamp), it is currently not possible to=20
> construct another one using a previous one.=20

An EvidenceRecord is a wrapper around an ArchiveTimeStampSequence.  The
draft describes how to add additional ArchiveTimeStamps to the last
ArchiveTimeStampChain in an ArchiveTimeStampSequence as well as how to
add a new ArchiveTimeStampChain to the ArchiveTimeStampSequence.  I
don't disagree that trying to follow discussion of these three
similarly-named structures is difficult, but have failed to come up with
clearer alternative suggestions. =20

 =20
> This document is supposed to apply to a long term archive=20
> service. However, there is no signature from an archive=20
> service. The TSA should not be confused with a Archive=20
> Authority. With the current structure the Archive service may=20
> not be held responsible of the storage of the data.=20

This document defines a syntax for representing a chain of cryptographic
evidence.  This syntax may be used by an archive service.  However, no
archive service is required to produce an evidence record.  Archive
service signatures are addressed in the context of a protocol for
interacting with an archive service.

 =20
> The draft claims to protect against weak algorithms or keys.=20
> However, it does not make a clear and clean separation=20
> between the cases of :=20
>=20
> -     the key of a Time-Stamping Unit has been compromised,=20
> -     an asymmetric algorithm has been broken for a given key size,=20
> -     a hash algorithm exhibits collisions.=20
>=20
> With "Timestamp renewal" the text omits to say that it is=20
> necessary using "out of bands means" that a given key from a=20
> Time Stamping Unit has been compromised or a that given=20
> asymmetric algorithm has been broken for a given key size.=20

This should be clarified.=20

>=20
> "Hash-Tree renewal" would apply when hash algorithm exhibits=20
> collisions. However a complete reconstruction is needed and=20
> it is not clearly explained which data from the previous=20
> structure may re-used.=20
>=20
> Appendix A contains an annex and it is not said whether it is=20
> informative or normative.=20
> Nevertheless, the benefits of the inclusion of an=20
> EvidenceRecord as an unsigned attribute are not explained.=20
> The advantages and drawbacks of each case is not explained either.=20

Good point.=20

>=20
> CONCLUSION=20
>=20
> In my opinion, none of these documents is ready to be sent to=20
> the IESG and it does not make sense to send ERS alone. The=20
> usefulness of the whole work is very questionable. These=20
> documents are not mature and contain numerous typos.=20

We should not cloud the review of ERS by referring to typos in -ari and
-validate.=20
 =20
> The primary question is : " Is this work really needed ?". SC=20
> 27 has issued ISO 18014-3:=20
> "Time-stamp services. Mechanisms producing linked tokens"=20
> that is very close.=20
>=20
> It would be interesting that the authors position their=20
> documents towards the ISO standard. Duplication of work=20
> should be avoided. If there is no duplication, then this=20
> should be explained in an informative annex. If no acceptable=20
> explanations may be given, then this work should be stopped.=20

The ISO drafts have been discussed on the list and are referenced by
this document as a source for alternative timestamp formats.

>=20
> P.S. I spent several hours to read the documents and to write=20
> this message,=20
>         but I do not have the time available to sustain long=20
> discussions on that topic.=20

Thanks for the review.=20

>=20
> Denis=20
>=20


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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hi Denis, =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Thank you for =
your time and
the review. As Carl already commented on most of your comments, and I =
fully agree
with him, I will only add a few things:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>1. At first to =
set one thing
straight:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The ERS document =
has been
discussed extensively over the last two years and there have been =
literally hundreds
of emails with comments and discussion about it on the mailing-list and =
there
are world wide several companies who already implemented ERS some months =
ago
(based o the draft versions 5-8 which are very similar to version 9). So =
I can
only assume that you are not talking about ERS but about validate or =
ari, which
are like add-ons to explain ERS further but still very young =
&nbsp;&#8211; those
two documents documents are NOT in WGLC &#8211; only =
ERS!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>(note: the work =
on the next
version of validate with the new second author is currently in progress =
and a
new version should be ready in about 3-4 =
weeks.)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>2. I will =
propose to
LTANS improvements according to the last two comments in your review: =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>a) make the =
separation of
the protection mechanisms clearer <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; -&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the key of a
Time-Stamping Unit has been compromised,</span></font><span =
lang=3DEN-GB> <br>
</span><font size=3D2><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;
-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; an asymmetric algorithm has been broken for a =
given
key size,</span></font><span lang=3DEN-GB> <br>
</span><font size=3D2><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;
-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a hash algorithm exhibits =
collisions.</span></font><span
lang=3DEN-GB> <br>
</span><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-GB =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>and<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>b) clarify =
whether
Appendix A&#8217;s annex is informative or normative and explain the =
benefits
of including an EvidenceRecord as an unsigned =
attribute.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>So again also =
from my
side, thank you for your review.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Tobias<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

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0cm 4.0pt'>

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<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

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<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</spa=
n></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
Carl Wallace [mailto:CWallace@cygnacom.com] <br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, January =
11, 2007
2:00 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Denis Pinkas;
ietf-smime@imc.org<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">ietf-ltans@imc.org</st1:PersonName>;
Russ Housley; <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">Tobias =
Gondrom</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: Cross review =
of draft
ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- until =
Jan
23rd</span></font><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Comments
inline... </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;
From: Denis Pinkas [<a =
href=3D"mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net">mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net</a>]
</span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Subject: Re: Cross =
review of
draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Last Call:
draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- until Jan 23rd</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Nearly no comments =
were sent
on the LTANS mailing list on </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; these documents. =
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>There is
just one document that has been submitted for working group last =
call.</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; It
may be questionable why. The fact is that these documents =
</span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; are badly written, =
and thus it
takes an enormous amount of </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; time to attempt to =
understand
them. </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Even though, most =
readers will
fail, but will not dare to </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; report that they =
did. </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; I am unsure that I =
understood
them, but I dare to report it.</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; This draft and its =
companion
documents namely </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; =
draft-ietf-ltans-ari-00 and
draft-ietf-ltans-validate-00 </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; raise a number of =
questions to
be solved.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>These two
drafts were prepared quickly in advance of the last working group
meeting.&nbsp; During the meeting, a call was made for additional =
co-authors to
help clarify and complete the documents.&nbsp; One person has joined =
Tobias in
this effort but no follow-up drafts have been released =
yet.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Let
us look now at the details of ERS.</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; No ASN.1 compiler =
has been
used to validate the syntax, </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; otherwise, it would =
have been
noticed that there is an </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; obvious ASN.1 error =
on
EvidenceRecord.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>The ASN.1
was changed as a result of comments during the previous working group =
last
call.&nbsp; Minor errors can be corrected without much cause for =
alarm.&nbsp; I
assume in this case you are referring to the missing 's' at the end of =
EncryptionInfo.&nbsp;
Also, the id-EvidenceRecord-Internal and id-EvidenceRecord-External =
values are
missing OBJECT IDENTIFIER.&nbsp; </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
EvidenceRecord ::=3D SEQUENCE {</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
version&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
INTEGER { v1(1) } ,</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
digestAlgorithms&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
SEQUENCE
OF AlgorithmIdentifier,</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
cryptoInfos&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
[0] CryptoInfos OPTIONAL,</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
encryptionInfo&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;
[1] EncryptionInfo OPTIONAL,</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
archiveTimeStampSequence&nbsp; ArchiveTimeStampSequence,</span></font> =
<br>
<font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
...</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
}</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Later on the text =
defines
ArchiveTimeStampSequence as:</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
ArchiveTimeStampSequence ::=3D SEQUENCE OF</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;
ArchiveTimeStampChain and </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
ArchiveTimeStampChain ::=3D SEQUENCE OF ArchiveTimeStamp</span></font> =
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; and</span></font> =
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
ArchiveTimeStamp
::=3D SEQUENCE {</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
digestAlgorithm [0] AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL,</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
reducedHashtree [1] SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree OPTIONAL,</span></font> =
<br>
<font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
timeStamp&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ContentInfo}</span></font> =
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
PartialHashtree ::=3D SEQUENCE OF OCTET STRING</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Note that this =
information is
spread all around the document, </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; rather than =
presented in
sequence which does not ease its reading.</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; ContentInfo is =
supposed to
carry a TST. This means that </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; timeStamp should be =
defined as
TimeStampToken rather than ContentInfo.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>timeStamp
was defined as a ContentInfo to allow a type other than TimeStampToken =
to be
used.&nbsp; </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; There is no =
explanation in
section 4.1 (top of page 11) to </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; know on which data =
the digest
contained in the TimeStampToken </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; is computed. =
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>This info
appears in Section 4 (middle of page 10): &quot;The root hash value, =
which
represents unambiguously all data objects, is =
timestamped.&quot;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; If another kind of =
time-stamp
token would need to be carried, </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; the syntax would =
need to be
changed. This comes into </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; contradiction with =
the
following sentence :</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Other types
of timestamp MAY be used, if they contain time data,</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
timestamped
data and a cryptographically secure </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; confirmation from =
the</span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
TSA of these
data.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>See
above.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; CryptoInfos from
EvidenceRecord should be suppressed, since </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; it is not proven =
that this
additional item will ever be </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; useful: encryption =
techniques
may be different for each data </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; item and thus =
cannot apply
globally at the level of an EvidenceRecord.</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; EncryptionInfo =
should be
suppressed too. No interoperability </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; can be obtained on =
these two
fields using this specification.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>This
comment was made during a previous last call and resulted in Tobias' =
posting to
the list a few instances of structures that could be conveyed in these
fields.&nbsp; These could be defined in a peer document or defined in =
this
draft.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; =
ArchiveTimeStampSequence is a
sequence of </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; =
ArchiveTimeStampChain which is
itself a sequence of </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; ArchiveTimeStamp. =
However,
there is no way to make a </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; difference between =
an
ArchiveTimeStampChain and an </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; =
ArchiveTimeStampSequence. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>The two
are not used interchangably.&nbsp; Why is this a problem?</span></font> =
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font> =
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; If within an =
EvidenceRecord,
one element within of an </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; =
archiveTimeStampSequence is
suppressed (e.g. a </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; ArchiveTimeStamp) =
this is not
detectable. What is the real </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; value of the =
EvidenceRecord
structure ? One would expect that </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; an EvidenceRecord =
includes a
time stamp. However, it does not not.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Why would
one element be suppressed?&nbsp; What would you want to have happen in =
this
case?&nbsp; As-is, verification would fail.&nbsp; I have commented =
previously
that it might be better if the chain supported shallow verification, =
which
would enable you to suppress a contiguous set of elements from the =
beginning of
the chain up to the point from which verification was desired.&nbsp; =
There was
no support for making a change along these lines, and there seemed to be =
no
real need to have this feature.&nbsp; </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>What do
you mean the EvidenceRecord does not include a timestamp?&nbsp; It =
includes
ArchiveTimeStampSequence, which may have one or more =
timestamps.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; The current draft =
does not
allow to apply the processing </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; recursively. Having
constructed one EvidenceRecord (that </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; would include a =
time stamp),
it is currently not possible to </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; construct another =
one using a
previous one. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>An
EvidenceRecord is a wrapper around an ArchiveTimeStampSequence.&nbsp; =
The draft
describes how to add additional ArchiveTimeStamps to the last
ArchiveTimeStampChain in an ArchiveTimeStampSequence as well as how to =
add a
new ArchiveTimeStampChain to the ArchiveTimeStampSequence.&nbsp; I don't
disagree that trying to follow discussion of these three similarly-named
structures is difficult, but have failed to come up with clearer =
alternative
suggestions.&nbsp; </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; This document is =
supposed to
apply to a long term archive </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; service. However, =
there is no
signature from an archive </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; service. The TSA =
should not be
confused with a Archive </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Authority. With the =
current
structure the Archive service may </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; not be held =
responsible of the
storage of the data.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>This
document defines a syntax for representing a chain of cryptographic
evidence.&nbsp; This syntax may be used by an archive service.&nbsp; =
However,
no archive service is required to produce an evidence record.&nbsp; =
Archive service
signatures are addressed in the context of a protocol for interacting =
with an
archive service.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; The draft claims to =
protect
against weak algorithms or keys. </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; However, it does =
not make a
clear and clean separation </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; between the cases =
of :</span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; =
-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the
key of a Time-Stamping Unit has been compromised,</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; =
-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; an
asymmetric algorithm has been broken for a given key size,</span></font> =
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; =
-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a
hash algorithm exhibits collisions.</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; With =
&quot;Timestamp
renewal&quot; the text omits to say that it is </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; necessary using =
&quot;out of
bands means&quot; that a given key from a </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Time Stamping Unit =
has been
compromised or a that given </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; asymmetric =
algorithm has been
broken for a given key size.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>This
should be clarified.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; &quot;Hash-Tree =
renewal&quot;
would apply when hash algorithm exhibits </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; collisions. However =
a complete
reconstruction is needed and </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; it is not clearly =
explained
which data from the previous </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; structure may =
re-used.</span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Appendix A contains =
an annex
and it is not said whether it is </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; informative or =
normative.</span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Nevertheless, the =
benefits of
the inclusion of an </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; EvidenceRecord as =
an unsigned
attribute are not explained. </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; The advantages and =
drawbacks
of each case is not explained either.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Good
point.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; =
CONCLUSION</span></font> <br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; In my opinion, none =
of these
documents is ready to be sent to </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; the IESG and it =
does not make
sense to send ERS alone. The </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; usefulness of the =
whole work
is very questionable. These </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; documents are not =
mature and
contain numerous typos.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>We should
not cloud the review of ERS by referring to typos in -ari and =
-validate.</span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font> =
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; The primary =
question is :
&quot; Is this work really needed ?&quot;. SC </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; 27 has issued ISO =
18014-3: </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; &quot;Time-stamp =
services.
Mechanisms producing linked tokens&quot; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; that is very =
close.</span></font>
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; It would be =
interesting that
the authors position their </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; documents towards =
the ISO
standard. Duplication of work </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; should be avoided. =
If there is
no duplication, then this </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; should be explained =
in an
informative annex. If no acceptable </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; explanations may be =
given,
then this work should be stopped.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>The ISO
drafts have been discussed on the list and are referenced by this =
document as a
source for alternative timestamp formats.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; P.S. I spent =
several hours to
read the documents and to write </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; this message, =
</span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;
but I do not have the time available to sustain long </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; discussions on that =
topic.</span></font>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Thanks
for the review.</span></font> <o:p></o:p></p>

<p><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; </span></font><br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; Denis</span></font> =
<br>
<font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>&gt; =
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

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From: Carl Wallace <CWallace@cygnacom.com>
To: Tony Capel <capel@comgate.com>, "'Denis Pinkas'" <denis.pinkas@bull.net>, ietf-smime@imc.org
Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org, "'Tobias Gondrom'" <tgondrom@opentext.com>, "'Russ Housley'" <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: RE: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG  - RE: WG Las t Ca	ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 12:08:27 -0500
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Tony,
 
I think Denis should provide additional details when calling for a working
group item to be dropped, especially when making this request this late in
the process with non-freely available documents as the basis.  However, I'll
try to make the case in the other direction.
 
I don't think it's simply a case of too many options that require profiling.
One motivation often cited during the development of ERS is support for
aggregations of data.  This is represented in ERS via the reducedHashtree
field in the ArchiveTimeStamp structure.  This field and the related
ArchiveTimeStampChain and ArchiveTimeStampSequence structures allow handling
of the aggregation when the initial timestamp is generated, when simple
timestamp renewal is required as well as when simple timestamp renewal is
not sufficient and the original data must be hashed again.
 
The ISO spec uses the ExtRenewal extension for timestamp renewal.  This is
roughly analogous to the timestamp renewal feature in ERS.  However, there
does not seem to be sufficient support for cases where the hash algorithm is
updated and the original data must be rehashed.  In ERS, when a hash
algorithm update is necessary, the preceding timestamp tokens are hashed
along with the original data.  In the ISO spec, an existing timestamp token
is presented for renewal but the original data is not.  It may be possible
to make this work using the extHash extension, but I don't see any
description of this in the current spec (nor do I see any text that
describes verification of the ExtRenewal extension).  I don't follow how the
aggregation mechanisms in the ISO spec can be used to aggregate data for the
initial timestamp well enough to compare them to ERS.  
 
ERS support for aggregation is more clearly stated and ERS provides more
complete handling of renewal operations.  For these reasons, I think we
should proceed with ERS instead of trying to enhance the ISO spec.
 
Carl


  _____  

From: Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com] 
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 11:04 AM
To: 'Carl Wallace'; 'Denis Pinkas'; ietf-smime@imc.org
Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; 'Tobias Gondrom'; 'Russ Housley'
Subject: RE: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last
Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd


Carl:
 
I think Denis asks simply for the justification for the introduction of new
technology to solve a problem which may already be solved with an existing
ISO standard (which has already been published and is presumably more mature
than what is being proposed).
 
Denis notes (in his previous comment) that perhaps the ISO standard offers
too many options and that perhaps a Profile of this ISO standard might be
published as an RFC to tailor the ISO standard for the specific
application(s) you have in mind.  In such a case the RFC should profile (see
ISO/IEC TR10000) the ISO standard and not introduce new technology.
 
Tony

 

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org]
On Behalf Of Carl Wallace
Sent: January 11, 2007 10:16 AM
To: Denis Pinkas; ietf-smime@imc.org
Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; Tobias Gondrom; Russ Housley
Subject: RE: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last
Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd


My response wasn't a reversal of the question but a request for details.
Folks on the list have previously discussed these specifications, including
their use within an EvidenceRecord.  You made a sweeping comment that lacked
any details and called for fairly drastic measures.  I simply asked for
justification.


  _____  

From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net] 
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 9:46 AM
To: Carl Wallace; ietf-smime@imc.org
Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; Russ Housley; Tobias Gondrom
Subject: Re: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last
Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd


Carl,
 
Please do not reverse the question. ISO 18014-3 already exists. The WG has
to justify why it would not fulfill its needs.
I will refine my question: Why is a profile of ISO 18014-3 not adequate to
fulfill the needs ?
A profile would make sense, since ISO 18014-3 has many options.
 
Denis


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<TITLE>Message</TITLE>

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<BODY>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=431170716-11012007>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=431170716-11012007><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff size=2>Tony,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=431170716-11012007><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=431170716-11012007><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff size=2>I think Denis should provide additional details when 
calling for a working group item to be dropped, especially when making this 
request this late in the process<SPAN class=451495016-11012007> </SPAN>with 
non-freely available documents as the basis.&nbsp; However, I'll try to make the 
case in the other direction.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=431170716-11012007><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=431170716-11012007><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff size=2>I don't think it's simply a case of too many options that 
require profiling.&nbsp; One motivation often cited during the development of 
ERS is support for aggregations of data.&nbsp; This is represented in ERS via 
the reducedHashtree field in the ArchiveTimeStamp structure.&nbsp; This field 
and the related ArchiveTimeStampChain and ArchiveTimeStampSequence structures 
allow handling of the aggregation when the initial timestamp is&nbsp;generated, 
when&nbsp;simple timestamp renewal is&nbsp;required as well as when simple 
timestamp renewal is not sufficient and the original data must be hashed 
again.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN 
class=431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN class=431170716-11012007><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=431170716-11012007><FONT face=Arial><FONT 
color=#0000ff><FONT size=2>The ISO spec uses the&nbsp;<SPAN 
class=451495016-11012007>E</SPAN>xt<SPAN 
class=451495016-11012007>R</SPAN>enewal&nbsp;<SPAN 
class=451495016-11012007>extension</SPAN> for timestamp renewal.&nbsp; This is 
roughly analogous to the&nbsp;timestamp renewal feature in ERS.&nbsp; However, 
there does not seem to be sufficient support for cases where the hash algorithm 
is updated and the original data must be rehashed.&nbsp; In ERS, when a hash 
algorithm update is necessary, the preceding timestamp tokens are hashed along 
with the original data.&nbsp; In the ISO spec, an existing timestamp token is 
presented for renewal but the original data is not.&nbsp; It may be possible to 
make this work using the extHash extension, but I don't see any description of 
this in the current spec (nor do I see any text that describes verification of 
the&nbsp;<SPAN class=451495016-11012007>E</SPAN>xt<SPAN 
class=451495016-11012007>R</SPAN>enewal extension).&nbsp; I&nbsp;<SPAN 
class=451495016-11012007>don't </SPAN>follow how the aggregation mechanisms in 
the ISO spec can be used to aggregate data for the initial timestamp well enough 
to compare them to ERS.&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=431170716-11012007><FONT face=Arial><FONT 
color=#0000ff><FONT size=2></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=431170716-11012007><FONT face=Arial><FONT 
color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><SPAN class=451495016-11012007>ERS support for 
aggregation is more clearly stated and&nbsp;ERS provides more complete handling 
of renewal operations.&nbsp; For these reasons, I think we should proceed with 
ERS instead of&nbsp;trying to enhance&nbsp;the ISO 
spec.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN 
class=431170716-11012007><SPAN class=451495016-11012007></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN 
class=431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN class=431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN 
class=431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN class=431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN 
class=431170716-11012007></SPAN><SPAN class=431170716-11012007><SPAN 
class=451495016-11012007></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=431170716-11012007><FONT 
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=431170716-11012007><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff size=2>Carl</FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
  <HR tabIndex=-1>
  <FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Tony Capel [mailto:capel@comgate.com] 
  <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 11, 2007 11:04 AM<BR><B>To:</B> 'Carl 
  Wallace'; 'Denis Pinkas'; ietf-smime@imc.org<BR><B>Cc:</B> ietf-ltans@imc.org; 
  'Tobias Gondrom'; 'Russ Housley'<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: RE: RE: Cross review 
  of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- 
  untilJan 23rd<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
  class=929275615-11012007>Carl:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
  class=929275615-11012007></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=929275615-11012007>I 
  think Denis asks simply for the justification for the introduction of&nbsp;new 
  technology to solve a problem which may already be solved with an existing ISO 
  standard (which has already been published and is presumably more mature than 
  what is being proposed).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
  class=929275615-11012007></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
  class=929275615-11012007>Denis&nbsp;notes (in his previous comment) that 
  perhaps the ISO standard offers too many options and that perhaps a Profile of 
  this ISO standard might be published as an RFC to tailor the ISO standard for 
  the specific application(s) you have in mind.&nbsp; In such a case the RFC 
  should profile (see ISO/IEC TR10000) the ISO standard and not introduce new 
  technology.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=929275615-11012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>Tony</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <P><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT 
  face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> 
  owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] <B>On 
  Behalf Of </B>Carl Wallace<BR><B>Sent:</B> January 11, 2007 10:16 
  AM<BR><B>To:</B> Denis Pinkas; ietf-smime@imc.org<BR><B>Cc:</B> 
  ietf-ltans@imc.org; Tobias Gondrom; Russ Housley<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: RE: 
  RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca 
  ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=901581015-11012007><FONT face=Arial 
  color=#0000ff size=2>My response&nbsp;wasn't a reversal of the question but a 
  request for details.&nbsp; Folks on the list have previously discussed these 
  specifications, including their use within an EvidenceRecord.&nbsp; You made a 
  sweeping comment that lacked any details and called for fairly drastic 
  measures.&nbsp; I simply asked for justification.</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE 
  style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
    <HR tabIndex=-1>
    <FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Denis Pinkas 
    [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 11, 2007 
    9:46 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Carl Wallace; ietf-smime@imc.org<BR><B>Cc:</B> 
    ietf-ltans@imc.org; Russ Housley; Tobias Gondrom<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: RE: 
    RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca 
    ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
    <DIV></DIV>
    <DIV>Carl,</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Please do not reverse the question. ISO 18014-3 already exists. The WG 
    has to justify why it would not fulfill its needs.</DIV>
    <DIV>I will refine my question: Why is a profile of ISO 18014-3 not adequate 
    to fulfill the needs ?</DIV>
    <DIV>A profile would make sense, since ISO 18014-3 has&nbsp;many 
    options.</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Denis</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Subject: RE: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG  - RE: WG Last Ca	ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd
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Carl:
=20
I think Denis asks simply for the justification for the introduction of =
new
technology to solve a problem which may already be solved with an =
existing ISO
standard (which has already been published and is presumably more mature =
than
what is being proposed).
=20
Denis notes (in his previous comment) that perhaps the ISO standard =
offers too
many options and that perhaps a Profile of this ISO standard might be =
published
as an RFC to tailor the ISO standard for the specific application(s) you =
have in
mind.  In such a case the RFC should profile (see ISO/IEC TR10000) the =
ISO
standard and not introduce new technology.
=20
Tony

=20

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org =
[mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] On
Behalf Of Carl Wallace
Sent: January 11, 2007 10:16 AM
To: Denis Pinkas; ietf-smime@imc.org
Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; Tobias Gondrom; Russ Housley
Subject: RE: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG =
Last Ca
ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd


My response wasn't a reversal of the question but a request for details. =
 Folks
on the list have previously discussed these specifications, including =
their use
within an EvidenceRecord.  You made a sweeping comment that lacked any =
details
and called for fairly drastic measures.  I simply asked for =
justification.


  _____ =20

From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net]=20
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 9:46 AM
To: Carl Wallace; ietf-smime@imc.org
Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; Russ Housley; Tobias Gondrom
Subject: Re: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG =
Last Ca
ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd


Carl,
=20
Please do not reverse the question. ISO 18014-3 already exists. The WG =
has to
justify why it would not fulfill its needs.
I will refine my question: Why is a profile of ISO 18014-3 not adequate =
to
fulfill the needs ?
A profile would make sense, since ISO 18014-3 has many options.
=20
Denis


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<TITLE>Message</TITLE>

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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D929275615-11012007>Carl:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D929275615-11012007></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D929275615-11012007>I=20
think Denis asks simply for the justification for the introduction =
of&nbsp;new=20
technology to solve a problem which may already be solved with an =
existing ISO=20
standard (which has already been published and is presumably more mature =
than=20
what is being proposed).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D929275615-11012007></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D929275615-11012007>Denis&nbsp;notes (in his previous comment) =
that perhaps=20
the ISO standard offers too many options and that perhaps a Profile of =
this ISO=20
standard might be published as an RFC to tailor the ISO standard for the =

specific application(s) you have in mind.&nbsp; In such a case the RFC =
should=20
profile (see ISO/IEC TR10000) the ISO standard and not introduce new=20
technology.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D929275615-11012007><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Tony</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<P><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org=20
[mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Carl=20
Wallace<BR><B>Sent:</B> January 11, 2007 10:16 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Denis =
Pinkas;=20
ietf-smime@imc.org<BR><B>Cc:</B> ietf-ltans@imc.org; Tobias Gondrom; =
Russ=20
Housley<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from =
LTANS WG -=20
RE: WG Last Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan=20
23rd<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D901581015-11012007><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>My response&nbsp;wasn't a reversal of the =
question but a=20
request for details.&nbsp; Folks on the list have previously discussed =
these=20
specifications, including their use within an EvidenceRecord.&nbsp; You =
made a=20
sweeping comment that lacked any details and called for fairly drastic=20
measures.&nbsp; I simply asked for =
justification.</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Denis Pinkas=20
  [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 11, =
2007=20
  9:46 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Carl Wallace; ietf-smime@imc.org<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
  ietf-ltans@imc.org; Russ Housley; Tobias Gondrom<BR><B>Subject:</B> =
Re: RE:=20
  RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca=20
  ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>Carl,</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Please do not reverse the question. ISO 18014-3 already exists. =
The WG=20
  has to justify why it would not fulfill its needs.</DIV>
  <DIV>I will refine my question: Why is a profile of ISO 18014-3 not =
adequate=20
  to fulfill the needs ?</DIV>
  <DIV>A profile would make sense, since ISO 18014-3 has&nbsp;many=20
options.</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Denis</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: Carl Wallace <CWallace@cygnacom.com>
To: Denis Pinkas <denis.pinkas@bull.net>, ietf-smime@imc.org
Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org, Tobias Gondrom <tgondrom@opentext.com>, Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: RE: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG  - RE: WG Las t Ca	ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 10:16:07 -0500
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My response wasn't a reversal of the question but a request for details.
Folks on the list have previously discussed these specifications, including
their use within an EvidenceRecord.  You made a sweeping comment that lacked
any details and called for fairly drastic measures.  I simply asked for
justification.


  _____  

From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net] 
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 9:46 AM
To: Carl Wallace; ietf-smime@imc.org
Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; Russ Housley; Tobias Gondrom
Subject: Re: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last
Ca ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd


Carl,
 
Please do not reverse the question. ISO 18014-3 already exists. The WG has
to justify why it would not fulfill its needs.
I will refine my question: Why is a profile of ISO 18014-3 not adequate to
fulfill the needs ?
A profile would make sense, since ISO 18014-3 has many options.
 
Denis


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<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.3020" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=901581015-11012007><FONT face=Arial 
color=#0000ff size=2>My response&nbsp;wasn't a reversal of the question but a 
request for details.&nbsp; Folks on the list have previously discussed these 
specifications, including their use within an EvidenceRecord.&nbsp; You made a 
sweeping comment that lacked any details and called for fairly drastic 
measures.&nbsp; I simply asked for justification.</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
  <HR tabIndex=-1>
  <FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Denis Pinkas 
  [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 11, 2007 
  9:46 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Carl Wallace; ietf-smime@imc.org<BR><B>Cc:</B> 
  ietf-ltans@imc.org; Russ Housley; Tobias Gondrom<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: RE: 
  RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Ca 
  ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>Carl,</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Please do not reverse the question. ISO 18014-3 already exists. The WG 
  has to justify why it would not fulfill its needs.</DIV>
  <DIV>I will refine my question: Why is a profile of ISO 18014-3 not adequate 
  to fulfill the needs ?</DIV>
  <DIV>A profile would make sense, since ISO 18014-3 has&nbsp;many 
options.</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Denis</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C73593.6AB6E266--



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Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 15:45:37 +0100
From: "Denis Pinkas" <denis.pinkas@bull.net>
To: "Carl Wallace" <CWallace@cygnacom.com>, "ietf-smime@imc.org" <ietf-smime@imc.org>
Cc: "ietf-ltans@imc.org" <ietf-ltans@imc.org>, "Russ Housley" <housley@vigilsec.com>, "Tobias Gondrom" <tgondrom@opentext.com>
Subject: Re: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG  - RE: WG Last Ca	ll:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd
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Carl,

Please do not reverse the question. ISO 18014-3 already exists. The WG has to justify why it would not fulfill its needs.
I will refine my question: Why is a profile of ISO 18014-3 not adequate to fulfill the needs ?
A profile would make sense, since ISO 18014-3 has many options.

Denis







From: owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Denis Pinkas
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 8:50 AM
To: ietf-smime@imc.org
Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; Russ Housley; Tobias Gondrom
Subject: Re: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd


Thank you for your quick response. I will make a quicker answer. You said:

" The ISO drafts have been discussed on the list and are referenced by this document as a source for alternative timestamp formats".

Why is the ISO format insufficient ? Why was there a need to develop these documents ?
Unless the responses to these questions are given and added to the document, 
I do not think that the documents should continue to progress. 
[CRW] Can you summarize why you feel the ISO formats obviate the need for ERS?  Other working group members have sought to use these formats as alternatives to RFC3161 timestamps within an EvidenceRecord.

--=====003_Dragon467742503416_=====
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<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1555" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV>Carl,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Please do not reverse the question. ISO 18014-3 already exists. The WG has 
to justify why it would not fulfill its needs.</DIV>
<DIV>I will refine my question: Why is a profile of ISO 18014-3 not adequate to 
fulfill the needs ?</DIV>
<DIV>A profile would make sense, since ISO 18014-3 has&nbsp;many options.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Denis</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<HR>
</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
  <HR tabIndex=-1>
  <FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org 
  [mailto:owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Denis 
  Pinkas<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 11, 2007 8:50 AM<BR><B>To:</B> 
  ietf-smime@imc.org<BR><B>Cc:</B> ietf-ltans@imc.org; Russ Housley; Tobias 
  Gondrom<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - 
  RE: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 
  23rd<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>Thank you for your quick response. I will make a quicker answer.&nbsp;You 
  said:</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>" <FONT size=2>The ISO drafts have been discussed on the list and are 
  referenced by this document as a source for alternative timestamp 
  formats".</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2>Why is the ISO format insufficient ? Why was there a need to 
  develop these documents ?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2>Unless the responses to these questions are given and added 
  to the document, </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2>I do not think that the documents should continue to 
  progress.<SPAN class=963221814-11012007><FONT face=Arial 
  color=#0000ff>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2><SPAN class=963221814-11012007><FONT face=Arial 
  color=#0000ff>[CRW] Can you summarize why you feel the ISO formats obviate the 
  need for ERS?</FONT>&nbsp;<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff> Other working group 
  members have sought to use these formats as alternatives to RFC3161 timestamps 
  within an EvidenceRecord.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<HR>
</BODY></HTML>

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From: Carl Wallace <CWallace@cygnacom.com>
To: Denis Pinkas <denis.pinkas@bull.net>, ietf-smime@imc.org
Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org, Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>, Tobias Gondrom <tgondrom@opentext.com>
Subject: RE: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG  - RE: WG Last Ca ll: 	draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd
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  _____  

From: owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org]
On Behalf Of Denis Pinkas
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 8:50 AM
To: ietf-smime@imc.org
Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org; Russ Housley; Tobias Gondrom
Subject: Re: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG Last Call:
draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd


Thank you for your quick response. I will make a quicker answer. You said:
 
" The ISO drafts have been discussed on the list and are referenced by this
document as a source for alternative timestamp formats".
 
Why is the ISO format insufficient ? Why was there a need to develop these
documents ?
Unless the responses to these questions are given and added to the document,

I do not think that the documents should continue to progress. 
[CRW] Can you summarize why you feel the ISO formats obviate the need for
ERS?  Other working group members have sought to use these formats as
alternatives to RFC3161 timestamps within an EvidenceRecord.


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<BODY>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
  <HR tabIndex=-1>
  <FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org 
  [mailto:owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Denis 
  Pinkas<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 11, 2007 8:50 AM<BR><B>To:</B> 
  ietf-smime@imc.org<BR><B>Cc:</B> ietf-ltans@imc.org; Russ Housley; Tobias 
  Gondrom<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - 
  RE: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 
  23rd<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>Thank you for your quick response. I will make a quicker answer.&nbsp;You 
  said:</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>" <FONT size=2>The ISO drafts have been discussed on the list and are 
  referenced by this document as a source for alternative timestamp 
  formats".</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2>Why is the ISO format insufficient ? Why was there a need to 
  develop these documents ?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2>Unless the responses to these questions are given and added 
  to the document, </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2>I do not think that the documents should continue to 
  progress.<SPAN class=963221814-11012007><FONT face=Arial 
  color=#0000ff>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2><SPAN class=963221814-11012007><FONT face=Arial 
  color=#0000ff>[CRW] Can you summarize why you feel the ISO formats obviate the 
  need for ERS?</FONT>&nbsp;<FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff> Other working group 
  members have sought to use these formats as alternatives to RFC3161 timestamps 
  within an EvidenceRecord.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Denis Pinkas" <denis.pinkas@bull.net>
To: "ietf-smime@imc.org" <ietf-smime@imc.org>
Cc: "ietf-ltans@imc.org" <ietf-ltans@imc.org>, "Russ Housley" <housley@vigilsec.com>, "Tobias Gondrom" <tgondrom@opentext.com>
Subject: Re: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG  - RE: WG Last Call: 	draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- untilJan 23rd
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Thank you for your quick response. I will make a quicker answer. You said:

" The ISO drafts have been discussed on the list and are referenced by this document as a source for alternative timestamp formats".

Why is the ISO format insufficient ? Why was there a need to develop these documents ?
Unless the responses to these questions are given and added to the document, 
I do not think that the documents should continue to progress.

Denis




Comments inline... 
> From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net] 
> Subject: Re: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG 
> Last Call: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- until Jan 23rd 
> 
> 
> Nearly no comments were sent on the LTANS mailing list on 
> these documents. 
There is just one document that has been submitted for working group last call. 
> It may be questionable why. The fact is that these documents 
> are badly written, and thus it takes an enormous amount of 
> time to attempt to understand them. 
> 
> Even though, most readers will fail, but will not dare to 
> report that they did. 
> I am unsure that I understood them, but I dare to report it. 
> 
> This draft and its companion documents namely 
> draft-ietf-ltans-ari-00 and draft-ietf-ltans-validate-00 
> raise a number of questions to be solved. 
These two drafts were prepared quickly in advance of the last working group meeting.  During the meeting, a call was made for additional co-authors to help clarify and complete the documents.  One person has joined Tobias in this effort but no follow-up drafts have been released yet.
> Let us look now at the details of ERS. 
> 
> No ASN.1 compiler has been used to validate the syntax, 
> otherwise, it would have been noticed that there is an 
> obvious ASN.1 error on EvidenceRecord. 
The ASN.1 was changed as a result of comments during the previous working group last call.  Minor errors can be corrected without much cause for alarm.  I assume in this case you are referring to the missing 's' at the end of EncryptionInfo.  Also, the id-EvidenceRecord-Internal and id-EvidenceRecord-External values are missing OBJECT IDENTIFIER.  
> 
>    EvidenceRecord ::= SEQUENCE { 
>       version                   INTEGER { v1(1) } , 
>       digestAlgorithms          SEQUENCE OF AlgorithmIdentifier, 
>       cryptoInfos               [0] CryptoInfos OPTIONAL, 
>       encryptionInfo            [1] EncryptionInfo OPTIONAL, 
>       archiveTimeStampSequence  ArchiveTimeStampSequence, 
>       ... 
>       } 
> 
> Later on the text defines ArchiveTimeStampSequence as: 
> 
>    ArchiveTimeStampSequence ::= SEQUENCE OF 
>                                 ArchiveTimeStampChain and 
> 
>    ArchiveTimeStampChain ::= SEQUENCE OF ArchiveTimeStamp 
> 
> and 
> 
>    ArchiveTimeStamp ::= SEQUENCE { 
>      digestAlgorithm [0] AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL, 
>      reducedHashtree [1] SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree OPTIONAL, 
>      timeStamp       ContentInfo} 
> 
>    PartialHashtree ::= SEQUENCE OF OCTET STRING 
> 
> Note that this information is spread all around the document, 
> rather than presented in sequence which does not ease its reading. 
> 
> ContentInfo is supposed to carry a TST. This means that 
> timeStamp should be defined as TimeStampToken rather than ContentInfo. 
timeStamp was defined as a ContentInfo to allow a type other than TimeStampToken to be used.  
> 
> There is no explanation in section 4.1 (top of page 11) to 
> know on which data the digest contained in the TimeStampToken 
> is computed. 
This info appears in Section 4 (middle of page 10): "The root hash value, which represents unambiguously all data objects, is timestamped."
> 
> If another kind of time-stamp token would need to be carried, 
> the syntax would need to be changed. This comes into 
> contradiction with the following sentence : 
> 
>    Other types of timestamp MAY be used, if they contain time data, 
>    timestamped data and a cryptographically secure 
> confirmation from the 
>    TSA of these data. 
See above. 
> 
> CryptoInfos from EvidenceRecord should be suppressed, since 
> it is not proven that this additional item will ever be 
> useful: encryption techniques may be different for each data 
> item and thus cannot apply globally at the level of an EvidenceRecord. 
> EncryptionInfo should be suppressed too. No interoperability 
> can be obtained on these two fields using this specification. 
This comment was made during a previous last call and resulted in Tobias' posting to the list a few instances of structures that could be conveyed in these fields.  These could be defined in a peer document or defined in this draft.
 
> ArchiveTimeStampSequence is a sequence of 
> ArchiveTimeStampChain which is itself a sequence of 
> ArchiveTimeStamp. However, there is no way to make a 
> difference between an ArchiveTimeStampChain and an 
> ArchiveTimeStampSequence. 
The two are not used interchangably.  Why is this a problem? 
  
> If within an EvidenceRecord, one element within of an 
> archiveTimeStampSequence is suppressed (e.g. a 
> ArchiveTimeStamp) this is not detectable. What is the real 
> value of the EvidenceRecord structure ? One would expect that 
> an EvidenceRecord includes a time stamp. However, it does not not. 
Why would one element be suppressed?  What would you want to have happen in this case?  As-is, verification would fail.  I have commented previously that it might be better if the chain supported shallow verification, which would enable you to suppress a contiguous set of elements from the beginning of the chain up to the point from which verification was desired.  There was no support for making a change along these lines, and there seemed to be no real need to have this feature.  
What do you mean the EvidenceRecord does not include a timestamp?  It includes ArchiveTimeStampSequence, which may have one or more timestamps.
 
> The current draft does not allow to apply the processing 
> recursively. Having constructed one EvidenceRecord (that 
> would include a time stamp), it is currently not possible to 
> construct another one using a previous one. 
An EvidenceRecord is a wrapper around an ArchiveTimeStampSequence.  The draft describes how to add additional ArchiveTimeStamps to the last ArchiveTimeStampChain in an ArchiveTimeStampSequence as well as how to add a new ArchiveTimeStampChain to the ArchiveTimeStampSequence.  I don't disagree that trying to follow discussion of these three similarly-named structures is difficult, but have failed to come up with clearer alternative suggestions.  
 
> This document is supposed to apply to a long term archive 
> service. However, there is no signature from an archive 
> service. The TSA should not be confused with a Archive 
> Authority. With the current structure the Archive service may 
> not be held responsible of the storage of the data. 
This document defines a syntax for representing a chain of cryptographic evidence.  This syntax may be used by an archive service.  However, no archive service is required to produce an evidence record.  Archive service signatures are addressed in the context of a protocol for interacting with an archive service.
 
> The draft claims to protect against weak algorithms or keys. 
> However, it does not make a clear and clean separation 
> between the cases of : 
> 
> -     the key of a Time-Stamping Unit has been compromised, 
> -     an asymmetric algorithm has been broken for a given key size, 
> -     a hash algorithm exhibits collisions. 
> 
> With "Timestamp renewal" the text omits to say that it is 
> necessary using "out of bands means" that a given key from a 
> Time Stamping Unit has been compromised or a that given 
> asymmetric algorithm has been broken for a given key size. 
This should be clarified. 
> 
> "Hash-Tree renewal" would apply when hash algorithm exhibits 
> collisions. However a complete reconstruction is needed and 
> it is not clearly explained which data from the previous 
> structure may re-used. 
> 
> Appendix A contains an annex and it is not said whether it is 
> informative or normative. 
> Nevertheless, the benefits of the inclusion of an 
> EvidenceRecord as an unsigned attribute are not explained. 
> The advantages and drawbacks of each case is not explained either. 
Good point. 
> 
> CONCLUSION 
> 
> In my opinion, none of these documents is ready to be sent to 
> the IESG and it does not make sense to send ERS alone. The 
> usefulness of the whole work is very questionable. These 
> documents are not mature and contain numerous typos. 
We should not cloud the review of ERS by referring to typos in -ari and -validate. 
  
> The primary question is : " Is this work really needed ?". SC 
> 27 has issued ISO 18014-3: 
> "Time-stamp services. Mechanisms producing linked tokens" 
> that is very close. 
> 
> It would be interesting that the authors position their 
> documents towards the ISO standard. Duplication of work 
> should be avoided. If there is no duplication, then this 
> should be explained in an informative annex. If no acceptable 
> explanations may be given, then this work should be stopped. 
The ISO drafts have been discussed on the list and are referenced by this document as a source for alternative timestamp formats.
> 
> P.S. I spent several hours to read the documents and to write 
> this message, 
>         but I do not have the time available to sustain long 
> discussions on that topic. 
Thanks for the review. 
> 
> Denis 
> 

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<DIV>Thank you for your quick response. I will make a quicker answer.&nbsp;You 
said:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>" <FONT size=2>The ISO drafts have been discussed on the list and are 
referenced by this document as a source for alternative timestamp 
formats".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Why is the ISO format insufficient ? Why was there a need to 
develop these documents ?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Unless the responses to these questions are given and added to 
the document, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I do not think that the documents should continue to 
progress.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Denis</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<HR>
</DIV>
<P><FONT size=2>Comments inline... </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2>&gt; From: Denis Pinkas [<A 
href="mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net">mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net</A>] 
</FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; Subject: Re: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS 
WG - RE: WG </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; Last Call: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- 
until Jan 23rd</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
</FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; Nearly no comments were sent on the LTANS mailing 
list on </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; these documents. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2>There is just one document that has been submitted for working 
group last call.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>&gt; It may be questionable why. The fact is that these 
documents </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; are badly written, and thus it takes an 
enormous amount of </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; time to attempt to understand 
them. </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; Even though, 
most readers will fail, but will not dare to </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; report 
that they did. </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; I am unsure that I understood them, 
but I dare to report it.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt; This draft and its companion documents namely </FONT><BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt; draft-ietf-ltans-ari-00 and draft-ietf-ltans-validate-00 
</FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; raise a number of questions to be solved.</FONT> 
</P>
<P><FONT size=2>These two drafts were prepared quickly in advance of the last 
working group meeting.&nbsp; During the meeting, a call was made for additional 
co-authors to help clarify and complete the documents.&nbsp; One person has 
joined Tobias in this effort but no follow-up drafts have been released 
yet.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2>&gt; Let us look now at the details of ERS.</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; No ASN.1 compiler has been used to 
validate the syntax, </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; otherwise, it would have been 
noticed that there is an </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; obvious ASN.1 error on 
EvidenceRecord.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>The ASN.1 was changed as a result of comments during the 
previous working group last call.&nbsp; Minor errors can be corrected without 
much cause for alarm.&nbsp; I assume in this case you are referring to the 
missing 's' at the end of EncryptionInfo.&nbsp; Also, the 
id-EvidenceRecord-Internal and id-EvidenceRecord-External values are missing 
OBJECT IDENTIFIER.&nbsp; </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
EvidenceRecord ::= SEQUENCE {</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
version&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
INTEGER { v1(1) } ,</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
digestAlgorithms&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; SEQUENCE 
OF AlgorithmIdentifier,</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
cryptoInfos&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
[0] CryptoInfos OPTIONAL,</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
encryptionInfo&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
[1] EncryptionInfo OPTIONAL,</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; archiveTimeStampSequence&nbsp; 
ArchiveTimeStampSequence,</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ...</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
</FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; Later on the text defines ArchiveTimeStampSequence 
as:</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
ArchiveTimeStampSequence ::= SEQUENCE OF</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
ArchiveTimeStampChain and </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ArchiveTimeStampChain ::= SEQUENCE OF 
ArchiveTimeStamp</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
and</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
ArchiveTimeStamp ::= SEQUENCE {</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; digestAlgorithm [0] 
AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL,</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reducedHashtree [1] SEQUENCE OF 
PartialHashtree OPTIONAL,</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
timeStamp&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ContentInfo}</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PartialHashtree ::= 
SEQUENCE OF OCTET STRING</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt; Note that this information is spread all around the document, 
</FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; rather than presented in sequence which does not 
ease its reading.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
ContentInfo is supposed to carry a TST. This means that </FONT><BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt; timeStamp should be defined as TimeStampToken rather than 
ContentInfo.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>timeStamp was defined as a ContentInfo to allow a type other 
than TimeStampToken to be used.&nbsp; </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; There is no explanation in 
section 4.1 (top of page 11) to </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; know on which data 
the digest contained in the TimeStampToken </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; is 
computed. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2>This info appears in Section 4 (middle of page 10): "The root 
hash value, which represents unambiguously all data objects, is 
timestamped."</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; If another kind of time-stamp 
token would need to be carried, </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; the syntax would 
need to be changed. This comes into </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; contradiction 
with the following sentence :</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Other types of timestamp MAY be used, if they 
contain time data,</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; timestamped 
data and a cryptographically secure </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; confirmation 
from the</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; TSA of these 
data.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>See above.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; CryptoInfos from 
EvidenceRecord should be suppressed, since </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; it is 
not proven that this additional item will ever be </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
useful: encryption techniques may be different for each data </FONT><BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt; item and thus cannot apply globally at the level of an 
EvidenceRecord.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; EncryptionInfo should be suppressed 
too. No interoperability </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; can be obtained on these 
two fields using this specification.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>This comment was made during a previous last call and resulted 
in Tobias' posting to the list a few instances of structures that could be 
conveyed in these fields.&nbsp; These could be defined in a peer document or 
defined in this draft.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; ArchiveTimeStampSequence is a 
sequence of </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; ArchiveTimeStampChain which is itself a 
sequence of </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; ArchiveTimeStamp. However, there is no 
way to make a </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; difference between an 
ArchiveTimeStampChain and an </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
ArchiveTimeStampSequence. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2>The two are not used interchangably.&nbsp; Why is this a 
problem?</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; If within 
an EvidenceRecord, one element within of an </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
archiveTimeStampSequence is suppressed (e.g. a </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
ArchiveTimeStamp) this is not detectable. What is the real </FONT><BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt; value of the EvidenceRecord structure ? One would expect that 
</FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; an EvidenceRecord includes a time stamp. However, 
it does not not.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>Why would one element be suppressed?&nbsp; What would you want 
to have happen in this case?&nbsp; As-is, verification would fail.&nbsp; I have 
commented previously that it might be better if the chain supported shallow 
verification, which would enable you to suppress a contiguous set of elements 
from the beginning of the chain up to the point from which verification was 
desired.&nbsp; There was no support for making a change along these lines, and 
there seemed to be no real need to have this feature.&nbsp; </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2>What do you mean the EvidenceRecord does not include a 
timestamp?&nbsp; It includes ArchiveTimeStampSequence, which may have one or 
more timestamps.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; The current draft does not allow 
to apply the processing </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; recursively. Having 
constructed one EvidenceRecord (that </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; would include 
a time stamp), it is currently not possible to </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
construct another one using a previous one. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2>An EvidenceRecord is a wrapper around an 
ArchiveTimeStampSequence.&nbsp; The draft describes how to add additional 
ArchiveTimeStamps to the last ArchiveTimeStampChain in an 
ArchiveTimeStampSequence as well as how to add a new ArchiveTimeStampChain to 
the ArchiveTimeStampSequence.&nbsp; I don't disagree that trying to follow 
discussion of these three similarly-named structures is difficult, but have 
failed to come up with clearer alternative suggestions.&nbsp; </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; This document is supposed to apply 
to a long term archive </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; service. However, there is 
no signature from an archive </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; service. The TSA 
should not be confused with a Archive </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; Authority. 
With the current structure the Archive service may </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
not be held responsible of the storage of the data.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>This document defines a syntax for representing a chain of 
cryptographic evidence.&nbsp; This syntax may be used by an archive 
service.&nbsp; However, no archive service is required to produce an evidence 
record.&nbsp; Archive service signatures are addressed in the context of a 
protocol for interacting with an archive service.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2></FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; The draft claims to protect 
against weak algorithms or keys. </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; However, it does 
not make a clear and clean separation </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; between the 
cases of :</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
-&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the key of a Time-Stamping Unit has been 
compromised,</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; -&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; an 
asymmetric algorithm has been broken for a given key size,</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt; -&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a hash algorithm exhibits 
collisions.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; With 
"Timestamp renewal" the text omits to say that it is </FONT><BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt; necessary using "out of bands means" that a given key from a 
</FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; Time Stamping Unit has been compromised or a that 
given </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; asymmetric algorithm has been broken for a 
given key size.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>This should be clarified.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; "Hash-Tree renewal" would 
apply when hash algorithm exhibits </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; collisions. 
However a complete reconstruction is needed and </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; it 
is not clearly explained which data from the previous </FONT><BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt; structure may re-used.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt; Appendix A contains an annex and it is not said whether it is 
</FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; informative or normative.</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt; Nevertheless, the benefits of the inclusion of an </FONT><BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt; EvidenceRecord as an unsigned attribute are not explained. 
</FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; The advantages and drawbacks of each case is not 
explained either.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>Good point.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; CONCLUSION</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; In my opinion, none of these documents 
is ready to be sent to </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; the IESG and it does not 
make sense to send ERS alone. The </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; usefulness of the 
whole work is very questionable. These </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; documents 
are not mature and contain numerous typos.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>We should not cloud the review of ERS by referring to typos in 
-ari and -validate.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
The primary question is : " Is this work really needed ?". SC </FONT><BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt; 27 has issued ISO 18014-3: </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; "Time-stamp 
services. Mechanisms producing linked tokens" </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; that 
is very close.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; It 
would be interesting that the authors position their </FONT><BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt; documents towards the ISO standard. Duplication of work 
</FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; should be avoided. If there is no duplication, then 
this </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; should be explained in an informative annex. 
If no acceptable </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; explanations may be given, then 
this work should be stopped.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>The ISO drafts have been discussed on the list and are 
referenced by this document as a source for alternative timestamp 
formats.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; P.S. I spent several hours to 
read the documents and to write </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; this message, 
</FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; but 
I do not have the time available to sustain long </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; 
discussions on that topic.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>Thanks for the review.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>&gt; </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>&gt; Denis</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>&gt; </FONT></P>
<HR>
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From: Carl Wallace <CWallace@cygnacom.com>
To: Denis Pinkas <denis.pinkas@bull.net>, ietf-smime@imc.org
Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org, Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>, Tobias Gondrom <tgondrom@opentext.com>
Subject: RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG  - RE: WG Last Call:  draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- until Jan 23rd
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 07:59:32 -0500
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Comments inline... 

> From: Denis Pinkas [mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net] 
> Subject: Re: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG - RE: WG 
> Last Call: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- until Jan 23rd
> 
> 
> Nearly no comments were sent on the LTANS mailing list on 
> these documents. 

There is just one document that has been submitted for working group last
call.

> It may be questionable why. The fact is that these documents 
> are badly written, and thus it takes an enormous amount of 
> time to attempt to understand them. 
> 
> Even though, most readers will fail, but will not dare to 
> report that they did. 
> I am unsure that I understood them, but I dare to report it.
> 
> This draft and its companion documents namely 
> draft-ietf-ltans-ari-00 and draft-ietf-ltans-validate-00 
> raise a number of questions to be solved.

These two drafts were prepared quickly in advance of the last working group
meeting.  During the meeting, a call was made for additional co-authors to
help clarify and complete the documents.  One person has joined Tobias in
this effort but no follow-up drafts have been released yet.

> Let us look now at the details of ERS.
> 
> No ASN.1 compiler has been used to validate the syntax, 
> otherwise, it would have been noticed that there is an 
> obvious ASN.1 error on EvidenceRecord.

The ASN.1 was changed as a result of comments during the previous working
group last call.  Minor errors can be corrected without much cause for
alarm.  I assume in this case you are referring to the missing 's' at the
end of EncryptionInfo.  Also, the id-EvidenceRecord-Internal and
id-EvidenceRecord-External values are missing OBJECT IDENTIFIER.  

> 
>    EvidenceRecord ::= SEQUENCE {
>       version                   INTEGER { v1(1) } ,
>       digestAlgorithms          SEQUENCE OF AlgorithmIdentifier,
>       cryptoInfos               [0] CryptoInfos OPTIONAL,
>       encryptionInfo            [1] EncryptionInfo OPTIONAL,
>       archiveTimeStampSequence  ArchiveTimeStampSequence,
>       ...
>       }
> 
> Later on the text defines ArchiveTimeStampSequence as:
> 
>    ArchiveTimeStampSequence ::= SEQUENCE OF
>                                 ArchiveTimeStampChain and 
> 
>    ArchiveTimeStampChain ::= SEQUENCE OF ArchiveTimeStamp
> 
> and
> 
>    ArchiveTimeStamp ::= SEQUENCE {
>      digestAlgorithm [0] AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL,
>      reducedHashtree [1] SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree OPTIONAL,
>      timeStamp       ContentInfo}
> 
>    PartialHashtree ::= SEQUENCE OF OCTET STRING
> 
> Note that this information is spread all around the document, 
> rather than presented in sequence which does not ease its reading.
> 
> ContentInfo is supposed to carry a TST. This means that 
> timeStamp should be defined as TimeStampToken rather than ContentInfo.

timeStamp was defined as a ContentInfo to allow a type other than
TimeStampToken to be used.  

> 
> There is no explanation in section 4.1 (top of page 11) to 
> know on which data the digest contained in the TimeStampToken 
> is computed. 

This info appears in Section 4 (middle of page 10): "The root hash value,
which represents unambiguously all data objects, is timestamped."

> 
> If another kind of time-stamp token would need to be carried, 
> the syntax would need to be changed. This comes into 
> contradiction with the following sentence :
> 
>    Other types of timestamp MAY be used, if they contain time data,
>    timestamped data and a cryptographically secure 
> confirmation from the
>    TSA of these data.

See above.

> 
> CryptoInfos from EvidenceRecord should be suppressed, since 
> it is not proven that this additional item will ever be 
> useful: encryption techniques may be different for each data 
> item and thus cannot apply globally at the level of an EvidenceRecord.
> EncryptionInfo should be suppressed too. No interoperability 
> can be obtained on these two fields using this specification.

This comment was made during a previous last call and resulted in Tobias'
posting to the list a few instances of structures that could be conveyed in
these fields.  These could be defined in a peer document or defined in this
draft.
 
> ArchiveTimeStampSequence is a sequence of 
> ArchiveTimeStampChain which is itself a sequence of 
> ArchiveTimeStamp. However, there is no way to make a 
> difference between an ArchiveTimeStampChain and an 
> ArchiveTimeStampSequence. 

The two are not used interchangably.  Why is this a problem?
 
> If within an EvidenceRecord, one element within of an 
> archiveTimeStampSequence is suppressed (e.g. a 
> ArchiveTimeStamp) this is not detectable. What is the real 
> value of the EvidenceRecord structure ? One would expect that 
> an EvidenceRecord includes a time stamp. However, it does not not.

Why would one element be suppressed?  What would you want to have happen in
this case?  As-is, verification would fail.  I have commented previously
that it might be better if the chain supported shallow verification, which
would enable you to suppress a contiguous set of elements from the beginning
of the chain up to the point from which verification was desired.  There was
no support for making a change along these lines, and there seemed to be no
real need to have this feature.  

What do you mean the EvidenceRecord does not include a timestamp?  It
includes ArchiveTimeStampSequence, which may have one or more timestamps.
 
> The current draft does not allow to apply the processing 
> recursively. Having constructed one EvidenceRecord (that 
> would include a time stamp), it is currently not possible to 
> construct another one using a previous one. 

An EvidenceRecord is a wrapper around an ArchiveTimeStampSequence.  The
draft describes how to add additional ArchiveTimeStamps to the last
ArchiveTimeStampChain in an ArchiveTimeStampSequence as well as how to add a
new ArchiveTimeStampChain to the ArchiveTimeStampSequence.  I don't disagree
that trying to follow discussion of these three similarly-named structures
is difficult, but have failed to come up with clearer alternative
suggestions.  
 
> This document is supposed to apply to a long term archive 
> service. However, there is no signature from an archive 
> service. The TSA should not be confused with a Archive 
> Authority. With the current structure the Archive service may 
> not be held responsible of the storage of the data.

This document defines a syntax for representing a chain of cryptographic
evidence.  This syntax may be used by an archive service.  However, no
archive service is required to produce an evidence record.  Archive service
signatures are addressed in the context of a protocol for interacting with
an archive service.
 
> The draft claims to protect against weak algorithms or keys. 
> However, it does not make a clear and clean separation 
> between the cases of :
> 
> -	the key of a Time-Stamping Unit has been compromised,
> -	an asymmetric algorithm has been broken for a given key size,
> -	a hash algorithm exhibits collisions.
> 
> With "Timestamp renewal" the text omits to say that it is 
> necessary using "out of bands means" that a given key from a 
> Time Stamping Unit has been compromised or a that given 
> asymmetric algorithm has been broken for a given key size.

This should be clarified.

> 
> "Hash-Tree renewal" would apply when hash algorithm exhibits 
> collisions. However a complete reconstruction is needed and 
> it is not clearly explained which data from the previous 
> structure may re-used.
> 
> Appendix A contains an annex and it is not said whether it is 
> informative or normative.
> Nevertheless, the benefits of the inclusion of an 
> EvidenceRecord as an unsigned attribute are not explained. 
> The advantages and drawbacks of each case is not explained either.

Good point.

> 
> CONCLUSION
> 
> In my opinion, none of these documents is ready to be sent to 
> the IESG and it does not make sense to send ERS alone. The 
> usefulness of the whole work is very questionable. These 
> documents are not mature and contain numerous typos.

We should not cloud the review of ERS by referring to typos in -ari and
-validate.
 
> The primary question is : " Is this work really needed ?". SC 
> 27 has issued ISO 18014-3: 
> "Time-stamp services. Mechanisms producing linked tokens" 
> that is very close.
> 
> It would be interesting that the authors position their 
> documents towards the ISO standard. Duplication of work 
> should be avoided. If there is no duplication, then this 
> should be explained in an informative annex. If no acceptable 
> explanations may be given, then this work should be stopped.

The ISO drafts have been discussed on the list and are referenced by this
document as a source for alternative timestamp formats.

> 
> P.S. I spent several hours to read the documents and to write 
> this message, 
>         but I do not have the time available to sustain long 
> discussions on that topic.

Thanks for the review.

> 
> Denis
> 

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<TITLE>RE: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG  - RE: WG Last Call: =
draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- until Jan 23rd</TITLE>
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Comments inline... </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; From: Denis Pinkas [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net">mailto:denis.pinkas@bull.net</A>] =
</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Subject: Re: Cross review of draft ERS from =
LTANS WG - RE: WG </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Last Call: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- until =
Jan 23rd</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Nearly no comments were sent on the LTANS =
mailing list on </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; these documents. </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>There is just one document that has been submitted =
for working group last call.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; It may be questionable why. The fact is that =
these documents </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; are badly written, and thus it takes an =
enormous amount of </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; time to attempt to understand them. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Even though, most readers will fail, but will =
not dare to </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; report that they did. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; I am unsure that I understood them, but I dare =
to report it.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; This draft and its companion documents namely =
</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; draft-ietf-ltans-ari-00 and =
draft-ietf-ltans-validate-00 </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; raise a number of questions to be =
solved.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>These two drafts were prepared quickly in advance of =
the last working group meeting.&nbsp; During the meeting, a call was =
made for additional co-authors to help clarify and complete the =
documents.&nbsp; One person has joined Tobias in this effort but no =
follow-up drafts have been released yet.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Let us look now at the details of ERS.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; No ASN.1 compiler has been used to validate the =
syntax, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; otherwise, it would have been noticed that =
there is an </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; obvious ASN.1 error on EvidenceRecord.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The ASN.1 was changed as a result of comments during =
the previous working group last call.&nbsp; Minor errors can be =
corrected without much cause for alarm.&nbsp; I assume in this case you =
are referring to the missing 's' at the end of EncryptionInfo.&nbsp; =
Also, the id-EvidenceRecord-Internal and id-EvidenceRecord-External =
values are missing OBJECT IDENTIFIER.&nbsp; </FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; EvidenceRecord ::=3D SEQUENCE =
{</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
version&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; INTEGER { v1(1) } ,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
digestAlgorithms&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
SEQUENCE OF AlgorithmIdentifier,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
cryptoInfos&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [0] CryptoInfos OPTIONAL,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
encryptionInfo&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; [1] EncryptionInfo OPTIONAL,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
archiveTimeStampSequence&nbsp; ArchiveTimeStampSequence,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ...</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Later on the text defines =
ArchiveTimeStampSequence as:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ArchiveTimeStampSequence =
::=3D SEQUENCE OF</FONT>
<BR><FONT =
SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
ArchiveTimeStampChain and </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ArchiveTimeStampChain ::=3D =
SEQUENCE OF ArchiveTimeStamp</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ArchiveTimeStamp ::=3D =
SEQUENCE {</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; digestAlgorithm =
[0] AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; reducedHashtree =
[1] SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree OPTIONAL,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
timeStamp&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ContentInfo}</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PartialHashtree ::=3D =
SEQUENCE OF OCTET STRING</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Note that this information is spread all around =
the document, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; rather than presented in sequence which does =
not ease its reading.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; ContentInfo is supposed to carry a TST. This =
means that </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; timeStamp should be defined as TimeStampToken =
rather than ContentInfo.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>timeStamp was defined as a ContentInfo to allow a =
type other than TimeStampToken to be used.&nbsp; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; There is no explanation in section 4.1 (top of =
page 11) to </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; know on which data the digest contained in the =
TimeStampToken </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; is computed. </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>This info appears in Section 4 (middle of page 10): =
&quot;The root hash value, which represents unambiguously all data =
objects, is timestamped.&quot;</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; If another kind of time-stamp token would need =
to be carried, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the syntax would need to be changed. This comes =
into </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; contradiction with the following sentence =
:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Other types of timestamp MAY =
be used, if they contain time data,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; timestamped data and a =
cryptographically secure </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; confirmation from the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; TSA of these data.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>See above.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; CryptoInfos from EvidenceRecord should be =
suppressed, since </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; it is not proven that this additional item will =
ever be </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; useful: encryption techniques may be different =
for each data </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; item and thus cannot apply globally at the =
level of an EvidenceRecord.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; EncryptionInfo should be suppressed too. No =
interoperability </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; can be obtained on these two fields using this =
specification.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>This comment was made during a previous last call and =
resulted in Tobias' posting to the list a few instances of structures =
that could be conveyed in these fields.&nbsp; These could be defined in =
a peer document or defined in this draft.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; ArchiveTimeStampSequence is a sequence of =
</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; ArchiveTimeStampChain which is itself a =
sequence of </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; ArchiveTimeStamp. However, there is no way to =
make a </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; difference between an ArchiveTimeStampChain and =
an </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; ArchiveTimeStampSequence. </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The two are not used interchangably.&nbsp; Why is =
this a problem?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; If within an EvidenceRecord, one element within =
of an </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; archiveTimeStampSequence is suppressed (e.g. a =
</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; ArchiveTimeStamp) this is not detectable. What =
is the real </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; value of the EvidenceRecord structure ? One =
would expect that </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; an EvidenceRecord includes a time stamp. =
However, it does not not.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Why would one element be suppressed?&nbsp; What would =
you want to have happen in this case?&nbsp; As-is, verification would =
fail.&nbsp; I have commented previously that it might be better if the =
chain supported shallow verification, which would enable you to =
suppress a contiguous set of elements from the beginning of the chain =
up to the point from which verification was desired.&nbsp; There was no =
support for making a change along these lines, and there seemed to be =
no real need to have this feature.&nbsp; </FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>What do you mean the EvidenceRecord does not include =
a timestamp?&nbsp; It includes ArchiveTimeStampSequence, which may have =
one or more timestamps.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; The current draft does not allow to apply the =
processing </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; recursively. Having constructed one =
EvidenceRecord (that </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; would include a time stamp), it is currently =
not possible to </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; construct another one using a previous one. =
</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>An EvidenceRecord is a wrapper around an =
ArchiveTimeStampSequence.&nbsp; The draft describes how to add =
additional ArchiveTimeStamps to the last ArchiveTimeStampChain in an =
ArchiveTimeStampSequence as well as how to add a new =
ArchiveTimeStampChain to the ArchiveTimeStampSequence.&nbsp; I don't =
disagree that trying to follow discussion of these three =
similarly-named structures is difficult, but have failed to come up =
with clearer alternative suggestions.&nbsp; </FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; This document is supposed to apply to a long =
term archive </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; service. However, there is no signature from an =
archive </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; service. The TSA should not be confused with a =
Archive </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Authority. With the current structure the =
Archive service may </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; not be held responsible of the storage of the =
data.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>This document defines a syntax for representing a =
chain of cryptographic evidence.&nbsp; This syntax may be used by an =
archive service.&nbsp; However, no archive service is required to =
produce an evidence record.&nbsp; Archive service signatures are =
addressed in the context of a protocol for interacting with an archive =
service.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; The draft claims to protect against weak =
algorithms or keys. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; However, it does not make a clear and clean =
separation </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; between the cases of :</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the key of a =
Time-Stamping Unit has been compromised,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; an asymmetric =
algorithm has been broken for a given key size,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a hash algorithm =
exhibits collisions.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; With "Timestamp renewal" the text omits to say =
that it is </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; necessary using "out of bands means" that a =
given key from a </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Time Stamping Unit has been compromised or a =
that given </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; asymmetric algorithm has been broken for a =
given key size.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>This should be clarified.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; "Hash-Tree renewal" would apply when hash =
algorithm exhibits </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; collisions. However a complete reconstruction =
is needed and </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; it is not clearly explained which data from the =
previous </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; structure may re-used.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Appendix A contains an annex and it is not said =
whether it is </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; informative or normative.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Nevertheless, the benefits of the inclusion of =
an </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; EvidenceRecord as an unsigned attribute are not =
explained. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; The advantages and drawbacks of each case is =
not explained either.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Good point.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; CONCLUSION</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; In my opinion, none of these documents is ready =
to be sent to </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the IESG and it does not make sense to send ERS =
alone. The </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; usefulness of the whole work is very =
questionable. These </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; documents are not mature and contain numerous =
typos.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>We should not cloud the review of ERS by referring to =
typos in -ari and -validate.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; The primary question is : " Is this work really =
needed ?". SC </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; 27 has issued ISO 18014-3: </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; "Time-stamp services. Mechanisms producing =
linked tokens" </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; that is very close.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; It would be interesting that the authors =
position their </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; documents towards the ISO standard. Duplication =
of work </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; should be avoided. If there is no duplication, =
then this </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; should be explained in an informative annex. If =
no acceptable </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; explanations may be given, then this work =
should be stopped.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>The ISO drafts have been discussed on the list and =
are referenced by this document as a source for alternative timestamp =
formats.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; P.S. I spent several hours to read the =
documents and to write </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; this message, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
but I do not have the time available to sustain long </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; discussions on that topic.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Thanks for the review.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; Denis</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
</HTML>
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Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 11:20:15 +0100
From: "Denis Pinkas" <denis.pinkas@bull.net>
To: "ietf-smime@imc.org" <ietf-smime@imc.org>
Cc: "Carl Wallace" <CWallace@cygnacom.com>, "ietf-ltans@imc.org" <ietf-ltans@imc.org>, "Russ Housley" <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: Re: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG  - RE: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt- until Jan 23rd
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Nearly no comments were sent on the LTANS mailing list on these documents. 
It may be questionable why. The fact is that these documents are badly written, 
and thus it takes an enormous amount of time to attempt to understand them. 

Even though, most readers will fail, but will not dare to report that they did. 
I am unsure that I understood them, but I dare to report it.

This draft and its companion documents namely draft-ietf-ltans-ari-00 and 
draft-ietf-ltans-validate-00 raise a number of questions to be solved.
Let us look now at the details of ERS.

No ASN.1 compiler has been used to validate the syntax, otherwise, 
it would have been noticed that there is an obvious ASN.1 error on EvidenceRecord.

   EvidenceRecord ::= SEQUENCE {
      version                   INTEGER { v1(1) } ,
      digestAlgorithms          SEQUENCE OF AlgorithmIdentifier,
      cryptoInfos               [0] CryptoInfos OPTIONAL,
      encryptionInfo            [1] EncryptionInfo OPTIONAL,
      archiveTimeStampSequence  ArchiveTimeStampSequence,
      ...
      }

Later on the text defines ArchiveTimeStampSequence as:

   ArchiveTimeStampSequence ::= SEQUENCE OF
                                ArchiveTimeStampChain
and 

   ArchiveTimeStampChain ::= SEQUENCE OF ArchiveTimeStamp

and

   ArchiveTimeStamp ::= SEQUENCE {
     digestAlgorithm [0] AlgorithmIdentifier OPTIONAL,
     reducedHashtree [1] SEQUENCE OF PartialHashtree OPTIONAL,
     timeStamp       ContentInfo}

   PartialHashtree ::= SEQUENCE OF OCTET STRING

Note that this information is spread all around the document, 
rather than presented in sequence which does not ease its reading.

ContentInfo is supposed to carry a TST. This means that timeStamp 
should be defined as TimeStampToken rather than ContentInfo.

There is no explanation in section 4.1 (top of page 11) to know on which data the digest 
contained in the TimeStampToken is computed. 

If another kind of time-stamp token would need to be carried, the syntax 
would need to be changed. This comes into contradiction with the following sentence :

   Other types of timestamp MAY be used, if they contain time data,
   timestamped data and a cryptographically secure confirmation from the
   TSA of these data.

CryptoInfos from EvidenceRecord should be suppressed, since it is not proven 
that this additional item will ever be useful: encryption techniques may be different 
for each data item and thus cannot apply globally at the level of an EvidenceRecord.
EncryptionInfo should be suppressed too. No interoperability can be obtained on 
these two fields using this specification.

ArchiveTimeStampSequence is a sequence of ArchiveTimeStampChain which is itself 
a sequence of ArchiveTimeStamp. However, there is no way to make a difference between 
an ArchiveTimeStampChain and an ArchiveTimeStampSequence. 

If within an EvidenceRecord, one element within of an archiveTimeStampSequence 
is suppressed (e.g. a ArchiveTimeStamp) this is not detectable. What is the real value 
of the EvidenceRecord structure ? One would expect that an EvidenceRecord includes 
a time stamp. However, it does not not.

The current draft does not allow to apply the processing recursively. Having constructed 
one EvidenceRecord (that would include a time stamp), it is currently not possible to construct 
another one using a previous one. 

This document is supposed to apply to a long term archive service. However, there is no signature 
from an archive service. The TSA should not be confused with a Archive Authority. With the current 
structure the Archive service may not be held responsible of the storage of the data.

The draft claims to protect against weak algorithms or keys. However, it does not make 
a clear and clean separation between the cases of :

-	the key of a Time-Stamping Unit has been compromised,
-	an asymmetric algorithm has been broken for a given key size,
-	a hash algorithm exhibits collisions.

With “Timestamp renewal” the text omits to say that it is necessary using “out of bands 
means” that a given key from a Time Stamping Unit has been compromised or a that given 
asymmetric algorithm has been broken for a given key size.

“Hash-Tree renewal” would apply when hash algorithm exhibits collisions. However a complete 
reconstruction is needed and it is not clearly explained which data from the previous structure 
may re-used.

Appendix A contains an annex and it is not said whether it is informative or normative.
Nevertheless, the benefits of the inclusion of an EvidenceRecord as an unsigned attribute 
are not explained. The advantages and drawbacks of each case is not explained either.

CONCLUSION

In my opinion, none of these documents is ready to be sent to the IESG and 
it does not make sense to send ERS alone. The usefulness of the whole work 
is very questionable. These documents are not mature and contain numerous typos.

The primary question is : “ Is this work really needed ?”. SC 27 has issued ISO 18014-3: 
“Time-stamp services. Mechanisms producing linked tokens” that is very close.

It would be interesting that the authors position their documents towards 
the ISO standard. Duplication of work should be avoided. If there is no duplication, 
then this should be explained in an informative annex. If no acceptable explanations 
may be given, then this work should be stopped.

P.S. I spent several hours to read the documents and to write this message, 
        but I do not have the time available to sustain long discussions on that topic.

Denis

>Hello dear SMIME WG,
>
>at the last meeting of the LTANS WG in San Diego, Russ recommended to
>ask your WG for a cross review of the ERS draft in its final stage (it
>is currently in WGLC). 
>
>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt 
>
>It would be nice if some of you could read the draft, review it and
>provide your feedback. 
>
>(As probably most of you already know the draft is about the data
>structure for an Evidence Record to ensure and protect integrity of data
>and signatures even when the algorithms used at signing time become
>insecure at a later point in time.)
>
>WG Last Call runs until January 23rd. 
>If some of you need longer, please send me a note about how much time
>you need. 
>
>Thank you very much for your help, Tobias
>Chair of LTANS
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Tobias Gondrom
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 8:12 PM
>> To: ietf-ltans@imc.org
>> Cc: 'Carl Wallace'
>> Subject: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt - until Jan 23rd
>> Importance: High
>> 
>> Hello dear LTANS WG,
>> 
>> with the small adjustments made in version-9, based on the discussion
>at
>> the meeting in San Diego, I again initiate the formal final WG last
>call.
>> (Hopefully this time it will really be the last one ;-) )
>> 
>> Additionally I will also ask the SMIME WG for cross review of the
>draft as
>> it has been discussed and decided at the last meeting in San Diego.
>> 
>> WG Last Call closes on January 23rd. After which the revised document
>will
>> hopefully be ready for submission to the IESG.
>> 
>> Thank you, Tobias
>> 
>> 
>> Ps.: btw. the ltans-reqs document passed the IETF Last Call and is now
>in
>> its final preparation phase by the IETF editor team.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-
>> ltans@mail.imc.org]
>> > On Behalf Of Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
>> > Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 12:50 AM
>> > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
>> > Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org
>> > Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt
>> >
>> > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>> > directories.
>> > This draft is a work item of the Long-Term Archive and Notary
>Services
>> > Working Group of the IETF.
>> >
>> > 	Title		: Evidence Record Syntax (ERS)
>> > 	Author(s)	: R. Brandner, et al.
>> > 	Filename	: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt
>> > 	Pages		: 29
>> > 	Date		: 2007-1-4
>> >
>> > In many scenarios, users must be able prove the existence and
>> >    integrity of data, including digitally signed data, in a common
>and
>> >    reproducible way over a long and possibly undetermined period of
>> >    time.  This document specifies the syntax and processing of an
>> >    Evidence Record, a structure designed to support long-term non-
>> >    repudiation of existence of data.
>> >
>> > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>> > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt
>> >
>> > To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to
>> > i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body
>of
>> > the message.
>> > You can also visit
>https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce
>> > to change your subscription settings.
>> >
>> > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the
>> > username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After
>> > logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then
>> > "get draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt".
>> >
>> > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
>> > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
>> > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>> >
>> > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
>> >
>> > Send a message to:
>> > 	mailserv@ietf.org.
>> > In the body type:
>> > 	"FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt".
>> >
>> > NOTE:	The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
>> > 	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
>> > 	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
>> > 	command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
>> > 	a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail
>readers
>> > 	exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
>> > 	"multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split
>> > 	up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on
>> > 	how to manipulate these messages.
>> >
>> > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
>> > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
>> > Internet-Draft.




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Subject: Cross review of draft ERS from LTANS WG  - RE: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt  - until Jan 23rd
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 20:22:07 +0100
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From: "Tobias Gondrom" <tgondrom@opentext.com>
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Hello dear SMIME WG,

at the last meeting of the LTANS WG in San Diego, Russ recommended to
ask your WG for a cross review of the ERS draft in its final stage (it
is currently in WGLC). 

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt 

It would be nice if some of you could read the draft, review it and
provide your feedback. 

(As probably most of you already know the draft is about the data
structure for an Evidence Record to ensure and protect integrity of data
and signatures even when the algorithms used at signing time become
insecure at a later point in time.)

WG Last Call runs until January 23rd. 
If some of you need longer, please send me a note about how much time
you need. 

Thank you very much for your help, Tobias
Chair of LTANS



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tobias Gondrom
> Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 8:12 PM
> To: ietf-ltans@imc.org
> Cc: 'Carl Wallace'
> Subject: WG Last Call: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt - until Jan 23rd
> Importance: High
> 
> Hello dear LTANS WG,
> 
> with the small adjustments made in version-9, based on the discussion
at
> the meeting in San Diego, I again initiate the formal final WG last
call.
> (Hopefully this time it will really be the last one ;-) )
> 
> Additionally I will also ask the SMIME WG for cross review of the
draft as
> it has been discussed and decided at the last meeting in San Diego.
> 
> WG Last Call closes on January 23rd. After which the revised document
will
> hopefully be ready for submission to the IESG.
> 
> Thank you, Tobias
> 
> 
> Ps.: btw. the ltans-reqs document passed the IETF Last Call and is now
in
> its final preparation phase by the IETF editor team.
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-ietf-ltans@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-
> ltans@mail.imc.org]
> > On Behalf Of Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> > Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 12:50 AM
> > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> > Cc: ietf-ltans@imc.org
> > Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt
> >
> > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> > directories.
> > This draft is a work item of the Long-Term Archive and Notary
Services
> > Working Group of the IETF.
> >
> > 	Title		: Evidence Record Syntax (ERS)
> > 	Author(s)	: R. Brandner, et al.
> > 	Filename	: draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt
> > 	Pages		: 29
> > 	Date		: 2007-1-4
> >
> > In many scenarios, users must be able prove the existence and
> >    integrity of data, including digitally signed data, in a common
and
> >    reproducible way over a long and possibly undetermined period of
> >    time.  This document specifies the syntax and processing of an
> >    Evidence Record, a structure designed to support long-term non-
> >    repudiation of existence of data.
> >
> > A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt
> >
> > To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to
> > i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body
of
> > the message.
> > You can also visit
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce
> > to change your subscription settings.
> >
> > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the
> > username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After
> > logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then
> > "get draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt".
> >
> > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
> > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
> >
> > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
> >
> > Send a message to:
> > 	mailserv@ietf.org.
> > In the body type:
> > 	"FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltans-ers-09.txt".
> >
> > NOTE:	The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
> > 	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
> > 	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
> > 	command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
> > 	a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail
readers
> > 	exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
> > 	"multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split
> > 	up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on
> > 	how to manipulate these messages.
> >
> > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
> > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
> > Internet-Draft.



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Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 14:01:35 +0100
From: "Denis Pinkas" <denis.pinkas@bull.net>
To: "ietf-smime@imc.org" <ietf-smime@imc.org>
Subject: Re:  I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-smime-multisig-00.txt
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Sean,

My replies are in line too.

>Dennis,
>
>Comments inline..
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org]
>On Behalf Of Denis Pinkas
>Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 6:19 AM
>To: ietf-smime@imc.org
>Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-smime-multisig-00.txt
>
>
>Comments on draft-ietf-smime-multisig-00.txt
>
>..snip
>
>However, this draft is unclear on how it applies. There are three types of
>RPs concerned with this draft:
>
>a)	RPs able to process "weak" algorithms, 
>b)	RPs able to process "strong" algorithms only, and
>c)	RPs able to process both "weak" and "strong" algorithms.
>
>spt> The draft is intended to address all three types of RPs.

This is what I believed, but these cases are not discussed in detail in the text.
I am  awaiting some new text.

>In case a, the main advantage of this draft is to allow to link digital
>signatures from the same signer in case of algorithm migration. If the RP
>decodes a SignerInfo with the "strong" algo, then it cannot verify the
>digital signature, but then it can easily figure out that there is another
>signature with the weak algorithms that it can process. The draft is silent
>about this scenario.
>
>spt> The main advantage of the draft is to allow you to know if an attacker
>stripped off a SignerInfo.  I will add the point about being easier able to
>find the other signature if you only support one of the two.
>
>In case b, the RPs is only able to process strong algorithms. If the RP
>decodes a SignerInfo with the "weak" algo, then it can also figure out that
>there is another signature that it can process. 
>The draft is silent about this scenario.
>
>spt> See above.
>
>In case c, the RPs is able to process both the weak and the strong
>algorithms. If the RP decodes a SignerInfo with the "weak" algo, then it can
>also figure out that there is another signature that it can process. What
>about if a single bit from the digital signature made with the stronger
>algorithm is changed by an attacker ? The digital signature is not
>suppressed, but becomes invalid. 
>What should the RP do ? The draft is silent about this scenario. 
>
>spt> We will add text to address this - this part was going to go in to
>section 5.

OK. I am  awaiting some new text.

>The draft does not say either whether it applies to the verification of a
>CMS structure at the present time or at a time in the past. 
>
>If it is the present time, both the "weak" and "strong" algorithms are safe,
>and there is no concern for the "downgrade attack".
>
>If it is a time in the past, then it is important to make a difference
>between :
>
>-	the weakness of hash algorithms, and 
>-	the weakness of asymmetric algorithm of short keys. 
>
>In the later case, time-stamping or time-marking over the digital signature
>provides a protection. 
>
>In the former case, time-stamping or time-marking over the digital signature
>does not provide a protection, but an archive time-stamping provides a
>protection, since a different and stronger hash algorithm may be used.
>
>This means that there exist solutions to handle the problem without the need
>to use the new signed attribute.

>spt> I do not believe time should have anything to do with this. If you're
>not worried about downgrade attacks then don't use the attribute.

The key point is to explain when this attribute is really useful. 
When you will have detailed the six cases, which case, if any, makes that attribute useful ?
The anwser could be none.

>In addition, RPs should know which hash algorithms is no more safe, which
>means that they will not use the digital signature made with a weak
>algorithm. They may try to use the newly defined MultipleSignatures signed
>attribute to find out another signature made with a strong algorithm. In
>other words, the "downgrade attack" 
>is not a concern, but the newly defined MultipleSignatures signed attribute
>is useful to link signatures from the same signer. The abstract should be
>changed. Hereafter is a proposal: 

>spt> While this might be true there are times when an RP won't know and this
>draft addresses those instances.

Really ? I believe that the local security policy of the recipient needs to know whether SHA-1 is secure enough 
and whether SHA-1 is better or lower than SHA-256.

>      CMS SignedData includes the SignerInfo structure to convey per-
>      signer information. SignedData supports multiple signers and 
>      multiple signature algorithms per-signer with multiple SignerInfo 
>      structures. During periods of algorithm migration, a signer may 
>      wish to attach more than one SignerInfo. However, there is no 
>      way to identify that they are from the same signer. This document 
>      defines a signed attribute, its generation rules, and its 
>      processing rules to allow a RP to detect SignerInfo structures 
>      generated by the same signer.
>
>spt> The point of the draft is to protect against a downgrade attack and I
>will not change the abstract because I believe your suggestion misses the
>point of the draft.

This point still needs to be proven.

>The processing rules for the various RPs should be given (six cases should
>be covered).

>spt> Agreed that we need to fill in the processing rules.

OK. I am  awaiting some new text.

>The MultipleSignature attribute, as defined, is not good enough, to
>establish a link without ambiguity.
>
>           MultipleSignature ::= SEQUENCE { 
>             bodyHashAlg     DigestAlgorithIdentifier, 
>             signAlg         SignatureAlgorithmIdentifier, 
>             signAttrsHash   SignAttrsHash, 
>             cert            ESSCertIDv2 OPTIONAL} 
>
>If the same algorithm are used (e.g. SHA-1 with RSA) bodyHashAlg and signAlg
>will likely be the same. 
>If a signature has few signed attributes signAttrsHash will also likely be
>the same. The difference will always be guaranteed with cert, which thus
>should be made mandatory. 

>spt> No the digest alg is sha-1 and the signature alg is rsa with sha-1 so
>the values are different. 

OK. You are correct.

Denis

>Denis





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Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 13:52:06 +0100
From: "Denis Pinkas" <denis.pinkas@bull.net>
To: "ietf-smime@imc.org" <ietf-smime@imc.org>
Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-smime-multisig-00.txt
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--=====003_Dragon160717824385_=====--




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Reply-To: <turners@ieca.com>
From: "Turner, Sean P." <turners@ieca.com>
To: <ietf-smime@imc.org>
Subject: WG LC closed on draft-ietf-smime-cms-mult-sign
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 12:27:39 -0500
Organization: IECA, Inc.
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All,

The WG LC has closed on the draft-ietf-smime-cms-mult-sign.  I will now
forward it to the Security AD and as noted earlier I will make sure to note
Denis' concerns.

spt




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Reply-To: <turners@ieca.com>
From: "Turner, Sean P." <turners@ieca.com>
To: <ietf-smime@imc.org>
Subject: WG LC closed on esscertid
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 09:43:43 -0500
Organization: IECA, Inc.
Message-ID: <01e101c72f45$90ec1b70$0201a8c0@Wylie>
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All,

The WG LC has closed on the esscertid.  An updated draft has been published
to address comments raised and I will now forward it to the Security AD.

spt




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From: "Turner, Sean P." <turners@ieca.com>
To: "'Denis Pinkas'" <denis.pinkas@bull.net>, <ietf-smime@imc.org>
Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-smime-multisig-00.txt
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 09:40:15 -0500
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Dennis,

Comments inline..

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org [mailto:owner-ietf-smime@mail.imc.org]
On Behalf Of Denis Pinkas
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 6:19 AM
To: ietf-smime@imc.org
Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-smime-multisig-00.txt


Comments on draft-ietf-smime-multisig-00.txt

..snip

However, this draft is unclear on how it applies. There are three types of
RPs concerned with this draft:

a)	RPs able to process "weak" algorithms, 
b)	RPs able to process "strong" algorithms only, and
c)	RPs able to process both "weak" and "strong" algorithms.

spt> The draft is intended to address all three types of RPs.

In case a, the main advantage of this draft is to allow to link digital
signatures from the same signer in case of algorithm migration. If the RP
decodes a SignerInfo with the "strong" algo, then it cannot verify the
digital signature, but then it can easily figure out that there is another
signature with the weak algorithms that it can process. The draft is silent
about this scenario.

spt> The main advantage of the draft is to allow you to know if an attacker
stripped off a SignerInfo.  I will add the point about being easier able to
find the other signature if you only support one of the two.

In case b, the RPs is only able to process strong algorithms. If the RP
decodes a SignerInfo with the "weak" algo, then it can also figure out that
there is another signature that it can process. 
The draft is silent about this scenario.

spt> See above.

In case c, the RPs is able to process both the weak and the strong
algorithms. If the RP decodes a SignerInfo with the "weak" algo, then it can
also figure out that there is another signature that it can process. What
about if a single bit from the digital signature made with the stronger
algorithm is changed by an attacker ? The digital signature is not
suppressed, but becomes invalid. 
What should the RP do ? The draft is silent about this scenario. 

spt> We will add text to address this - this part was going to go in to
section 5.

The draft does not say either whether it applies to the verification of a
CMS structure at the present time or at a time in the past. 

If it is the present time, both the "weak" and "strong" algorithms are safe,
and there is no concern for the "downgrade attack".

If it is a time in the past, then it is important to make a difference
between :

-	the weakness of hash algorithms, and 
-	the weakness of asymmetric algorithm of short keys. 

In the later case, time-stamping or time-marking over the digital signature
provides a protection. 

In the former case, time-stamping or time-marking over the digital signature
does not provide a protection, but an archive time-stamping provides a
protection, since a different and stronger hash algorithm may be used.

This means that there exist solutions to handle the problem without the need
to use the new signed attribute.

spt> I do not believe time should have anything to do with this. If you're
not worried about downgrade attacks then don't use the attribute.

In addition, RPs should know which hash algorithms is no more safe, which
means that they will not use the digital signature made with a weak
algorithm. They may try to use the newly defined MultipleSignatures signed
attribute to find out another signature made with a strong algorithm. In
other words, the "downgrade attack" 
is not a concern, but the newly defined MultipleSignatures signed attribute
is useful to link signatures from the same signer. The abstract should be
changed. Hereafter is a proposal: 

spt> While this might be true there are times when an RP won't know and this
draft addresses those instances.

      CMS SignedData includes the SignerInfo structure to convey per-
      signer information. SignedData supports multiple signers and 
      multiple signature algorithms per-signer with multiple SignerInfo 
      structures. During periods of algorithm migration, a signer may 
      wish to attach more than one SignerInfo. However, there is no 
      way to identify that they are from the same signer. This document 
      defines a signed attribute, its generation rules, and its 
      processing rules to allow a RP to detect SignerInfo structures 
      generated by the same signer.

spt> The point of the draft is to protect against a downgrade attack and I
will not change the abstract because I believe your suggestion misses the
point of the draft.

The processing rules for the various RPs should be given (six cases should
be covered).

spt> Agreed that we need to fill in the processing rules.

The MultipleSignature attribute, as defined, is not good enough, to
establish a link without ambiguity.

           MultipleSignature ::= SEQUENCE { 
             bodyHashAlg     DigestAlgorithIdentifier, 
             signAlg         SignatureAlgorithmIdentifier, 
             signAttrsHash   SignAttrsHash, 
             cert            ESSCertIDv2 OPTIONAL} 

If the same algorithm are used (e.g. SHA-1 with RSA) bodyHashAlg and signAlg
will likely be the same. 
If a signature has few signed attributes signAttrsHash will also likely be
the same. The difference will always be guaranteed with cert, which thus
should be made mandatory. 

spt> No the digest alg is sha-1 and the signature alg is rsa with sha-1 so
the values are different. 

Denis


>It is a companion document, not a replacement.
>
>Russ
>
>At 05:28 AM 12/20/2006, Denis Pinkas wrote:
>
>>How does this document relate to <draft-ietf-smime-cms-mult-sign-02.txt> ?
>>
>>Does it replace it ?
>>
>>Denis
>>
>> >A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
>> >directories.
>> >This draft is a work item of the S/MIME Mail Security Working
>> Group of the IETF.
>> >
>> >       Title           : Multiple Signatures in S/MIME
>> >       Author(s)       : S. Turner
>> >       Filename        : draft-ietf-smime-multisig-00.txt
>> >       Pages           :
>> >       Date            : 2006-12-19
>> >
>> >         CMS SignedData includes the SignerInfo structure to convey per-
>> >         signer information. SignedData supports multiple signers and
>> >         multiple signature algorithms per-signer with multiple
SignerInfo
>> >         structures. If a signer attaches more than one
>> SignerInfo, there are
>> >         concerns that an attacker could perform a downgrade attack by
>> >         removing the SignerInfo(s) with the 'stronger' algorithm(s).
This
>> >         document defines a signed attribute, its generation rules, and
its
>> >         processing rules to allow signers to convey multiple SignerInfo
>> >         while protecting against downgrade attacks. Additionally, this
>> >         attribute may assist during periods of algorithm migration.
>> >
>> >
>> >A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>> >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-smime-multisig-00.txt
>> >
>> >To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to 
>> >i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body 
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>> >
>> >Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the 
>> >username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After 
>> >logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get 
>> >draft-ietf-smime-multisig-00.txt".
>> >
>> >A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in 
>> >http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or 
>> >ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>> >
>> >Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
>> >
>> >Send a message to:
>> >       mailserv@ietf.org.
>> >In the body type:
>> >       "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-smime-multisig-00.txt".
>> >
>> >NOTE:  The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
>> >       MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
>> >       feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
>> >       command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
>> >       a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail
readers
>> >       exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
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>> >
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>> >Internet-Draft.
>> >
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>> >
>> >ENCODING mime
>> >FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-smime-multisig-00.txt






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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
directories.
This draft is a work item of the S/MIME Mail Security Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: The CMS AuthEnvelopedData Content Type
	Author(s)	: R. Housley
	Filename	: draft-ietf-smime-cms-auth-enveloped-00.txt
	Pages		: 9
	Date		: 2007-1-2
	
   This document describes an additional content type for the
   Cryptographic Message Syntax (CMS).  The AuthEnvelopedData content
   type is intended for use with authenticated encryption modes.  All of
   the various key management techniques that are supported in the
   EnvelopedData content type are also supported by the
   AuthEnvelopedData content type.


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To: Denis.Pinkas@bull.net, ietf-smime@imc.org
From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-smime-multisig-00.txt
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<html>
<body>
Denis:<br><br>
I do not know how to constructively continue this discussion.&nbsp; We do
not seem to be communicating with each other.<br><br>
Trying one more time...&nbsp; See below.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<dl>
<dd>[Russ]<br>

<dd>Denis:<br><br>

<dd>We are talking about signatures on CMS object, not signatures on
<br>

<dd>certificates. The recipient of the signed CMS object needs to be
<br>

<dd>able to validate the signature on the certificate as well as the CMS
<br>

<dd>signed object.<br><br>

<dd>If the signer has a certified RSA public key, then the signer can
<br>

<dd>sign a CMS object using both RSA with SHA-1 and RSA with <br>

<dd>SHA-256. Each one will be a SignerInfo, and the sid (using either
<br>

<dd>the issuerAndSerialNumber or the subjectKeyIdentifier) in each of
<br>

<dd>them will identify the same certified public key.<br><br>

<dd>[Denis] <br>

<dd>&nbsp;<br>

<dd>If the algorithm is &quot;RSA&quot; rather than &quot;a hash function
+ RSA&quot;, then it works.<br>

<dd>However, this kind of explanation is lacking in the current
draft.</blockquote>
</dl><br>
In most certificates used for S/MIME today, the subject public key
identifier contains the algorithm identifier listed in 2.3.1 of RFC
3279:<br><br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; The OID rsaEncryption identifies RSA public keys.<br><br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; pkcs-1 OBJECT IDENTIFIER ::= { iso(1)
member-body(2) us(840)<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
rsadsi(113549) pkcs(1) 1 }<br><br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; rsaEncryption OBJECT IDENTIFIER ::=&nbsp;
{ pkcs-1 1}<br><br>
Then, the CMS SignerInfo indicates RSA as well as the one-way hash
function that is used for the encapsulated content.&nbsp; These are the
OID that I found in the RFCs:<br><br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; md2WithRSAEncryption OBJECT
IDENTIFIER&nbsp; ::=&nbsp; { pkcs-1 2 }<br><br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; md5WithRSAEncryption OBJECT
IDENTIFIER&nbsp; ::=&nbsp; { pkcs-1 4 }<br><br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; sha-1WithRSAEncryption OBJECT
IDENTIFIER&nbsp; ::=&nbsp; { pkcs-1 5 }<br><br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; sha224WithRSAEncryption&nbsp; OBJECT
IDENTIFIER&nbsp; ::=&nbsp; { pkcs-1 14 }<br><br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; sha256WithRSAEncryption&nbsp; OBJECT
IDENTIFIER&nbsp; ::=&nbsp; { pkcs-1 11 }<br><br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; sha384WithRSAEncryption&nbsp; OBJECT
IDENTIFIER&nbsp; ::=&nbsp; { pkcs-1 12 }<br><br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; sha512WithRSAEncryption&nbsp; OBJECT
IDENTIFIER&nbsp; ::=&nbsp; { pkcs-1 13 }<br><br>
The certificate does not require the subject public key to be used with
any particular one-way hash function, but the signature itself tells
which one-way hash function way employed by the signer.&nbsp; None of
this is new!<br><br>
What text needs to be added to the document?&nbsp; I am willing to
consider additional text, but so far, I do not see a need.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<dl>
<dd>&nbsp;[Russ]<br><br>

<dd>If the RSA public key is placed in two certificates, one signed by
<br>

<dd>the CA using RSA with SHA-1 and the other signed by the CA using RSA
<br>

<dd>with SHA-256, then you get a better situation from a cryptographic
<br>

<dd>strength perspective. However, the subject key identifier will be
<br>

<dd>the same in both certificates, which allows the recipient to easily
<br>

<dd>detect that the signatures are from the same signer if that form of
<br>

<dd>sid is used. Which is the one that S/MIME has been encouraging for
<br>

<dd>quite some years, mostly due to size.<br>

<dd>[Denis]<br>

<dd>&nbsp;<br>

<dd>I disagree. RFC 3280 states:<br>

<dd>&nbsp;<br>

<dd>4.2.1.2&nbsp; Subject Key
Identifier<font face="Times New Roman, Times"> </font><br><br>

<dd>&nbsp;&nbsp; The subject key identifier extension provides a means of
identifying<font face="Times New Roman, Times"> </font><br>

<dd><font size=2>&nbsp;</font>&nbsp; certificates that contain a
particular public key.<font face="Times New Roman, Times"> <br>
</font><br>

<dd><font size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp; (...)<br>
</font><br>

<dd><font size=2>&nbsp;</font>&nbsp; For end entity certificates, subject
key identifiers SHOULD be<font face="Times New Roman, Times"> <br>
</font>
<dd>&nbsp;&nbsp; derived from the public key. </blockquote>
</dl><br>
You did not quote the part of Section 4.2.1.2 of RFC 3280 that describe
the most commonly used technique for computing a key identifier:<br><br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (1) The keyIdentifier is composed of the
160-bit SHA-1 hash of the<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; value of the BIT STRING subjectPublicKey
(excluding the tag,<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; length, and number of unused
bits).<br><br>
If the two certificates contain the same RSA public key, then this value
will most certainly be the same!<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<dl>
<dd>&nbsp;Since the public keys will be different, the subject key
identifiers will NOT be the same in both certificates.</blockquote>
</dl><br>
Again, if the two certificates contain the same RSA public key, then this
value will most certainly be the same!&nbsp; You seem to be making some
unstated assumptions about certification policies.<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<dl>
<dd>If the certificates are issued by the same CA, the subject field from
the certificate would normally be the same.<br>

<dd>If the certificates are not issued by the same CA, the permanent
identifier, if present would help.<br>

<dd>These kinds of explanations are lacking in the current
draft.</blockquote>
</dl><br>
I am not trying to distinguish the certificates.&nbsp; The issuer and
serial number would allow me to do that.<br><br>
At this point, I do not know what else to say.&nbsp; I am going to leave
it to the S/MIME WG Chairs to determine what changes, if any, are needed
to resolve your Last Call comment.<br><br>
Russ<br>
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Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-smime-multisig-00.txt
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