From extest-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 1 05:19:08 2002 Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA11938 for ; Wed, 1 May 2002 05:19:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g419JAN26844 for ; Wed, 1 May 2002 05:19:10 -0400 Date: Wed, 1 May 2002 05:19:10 -0400 Message-Id: <200205010919.g419JAN26844@share.research.bell-labs.com> Subject: lists.bell-labs.com mailing list memberships reminder From: mailman-owner@lists.bell-labs.com To: spirits-archive@ietf.org X-No-Archive: yes X-Ack: no Sender: extest-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: extest-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: extest@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk This is a reminder, sent out once a month, about your lists.bell-labs.com mailing list memberships. 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Passwords for spirits-archive@lists.ietf.org: List Password // URL ---- -------- spirits@lists.bell-labs.com unmora http://lists.bell-labs.com/mailman/options/spirits/spirits-archive%40lists.ietf.org From spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Tue May 7 17:55:11 2002 Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA25207 for ; Tue, 7 May 2002 17:55:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g47Lt1N18593; Tue, 7 May 2002 17:55:04 -0400 Received: from dirty.research.bell-labs.com (dirty.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.6]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g47LsaN18574 for ; Tue, 7 May 2002 17:54:36 -0400 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (H-135-104-27-211.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.27.211]) by dirty.research.bell-labs.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g47Lu5UL077447 for ; Tue, 7 May 2002 17:56:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) id 1ACFF4439E; Tue, 7 May 2002 17:54:31 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: spirits@sunny.research.bell-labs.com Received: from scummy.research.bell-labs.com (guard.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.2.10]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E35274439D for ; Tue, 7 May 2002 17:54:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ih2mail.ih.lucent.com (ih2mail.ih.lucent.com [135.1.241.39]) by scummy.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g47LsTk29636 for ; Tue, 7 May 2002 17:54:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lucent.com by ih2mail.ih.lucent.com (8.8.8+Sun/EMS-1.5 sol2) id QAA01107; Tue, 7 May 2002 16:54:27 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3CD84D12.50406@lucent.com> From: "Vijay K. Gurbani" Organization: Lucent Technologies, Inc./Bell Laboratories User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0rc1) Gecko/20020417 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jonathan Rosenberg Cc: SPIRITS list References: <3CD7E2D1.7050306@lucent.com> <3CD7FFD6.5065F058@dynamicsoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [SPIRITS] Re: [Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-spirits-protocol-01.txt] Sender: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: spirits@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 16:54:26 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jonathan: Inline (some text quoted to provide context for people on the list). vkg> Yes, RFC 2995 is an Informational RFC only. ICW is still possible vkg> with the current SPIRITS architecture and protocol, except that vkg> SUBS/NOT is not needed for this particular service. It happens vkg> automagically; and INVITE is sent straight out to the IP host. jdr> OK, so where is that documented? Or, are you saying, its really jdr> obvious and there is no need to define standards for it? vkg> The SPIRITS requirement I-D (which is in the RFC queue with IESG) vkg> provides some guidance on this: vkg> One specific example demonstrating the application of the latter vkg> requirement, which is elaborated on further in this document, is as vkg> follows: Implementation of SUBSCRIBE/NOTIFY is not mandatory as far vkg> as the minimum SPIRITS protocol is concerned. Thus, the initial vkg> PSTN (Detection Point) notification will always arrive via the SIP vkg> INVITE method; however, to implement persistent interactions with vkg> the PSTN, the SUBSCRIBE method may be used to obtain further vkg> notifications to the PSTN events. Subsequently, these events vkg> will be reported on by means of the NOTIFY method. vkg> vkg> Thus, ICW, as a SPIRITS service can be done completely using the vkg> initial INVITE request. jdr> This is why I am confused. I don't see any discussion of invite in the jdr> spirits protocol. Maybe I am missing it. If i'm not, I don't get it jdr> - if the requirements say that protocol X needs to support INVITE, jdr> I would expect to see INVITE in the protocol. Okay; so I see your point -- the use of INVITE is not described in the protocol I-D. This is probably my fault -- I have been focusing rather heavily on the SUBS/NOT aspect of SPIRITS in earlier iterations of the protocol I-D. In the next iteration, I will add the use of INVITE as well, as per the requirements I-D. vkg> This was done to be backwardly compatible vkg> with the existing ICW implementations, which pre-dated the SPIRITS WG. vkg> Furthermore, when these ICW implementations were done (late '98 - mid vkg> '99), SUBS/NOT was not even on the horizon (PINT had a SUBS/UNSUBS vkg> extension to SIP, which I guess subsequently gave birth to SUBS/NOT). jdr> Well, you can't do ICW with just SUB/NOT anyway, so its not just an jdr> issue of backwards compatibility. Right. Regards, - vijay -- Vijay K. Gurbani vkg@{lucent.com,research.bell-labs.com,acm.org} Wireless Networks Group/Internet Software and Services Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs Innovations, 2000 Lucent Lane, Rm 6G-440 Naperville, Illinois 60566 Voice: +1 630 224 0216 _______________________________________________ SPIRITS mailing list SPIRITS@lists.bell-labs.com http://lists.bell-labs.com/mailman/listinfo/spirits From spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 15 18:39:03 2002 Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA24402 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 18:39:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4FMd3N15158; Wed, 15 May 2002 18:39:03 -0400 Received: from dirty.research.bell-labs.com (dirty.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.6]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4FMcBN15145 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 18:38:11 -0400 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (H-135-104-27-211.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.27.211]) by dirty.research.bell-labs.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g4FMdMUL062349 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 18:39:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) id 45F104439E; Wed, 15 May 2002 18:38:06 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: spirits@sunny.research.bell-labs.com Received: from grubby.research.bell-labs.com (guard.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.2.9]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C83314439D for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 18:38:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ih2mail.ih.lucent.com (ih2mail.ih.lucent.com [135.1.241.39]) by grubby.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4FMc2o60273 for ; Wed, 15 May 2002 18:38:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lucent.com by ih2mail.ih.lucent.com (8.8.8+Sun/EMS-1.5 sol2) id RAA26470; Wed, 15 May 2002 17:37:57 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3CE2E347.1090703@lucent.com> From: "Vijay K. Gurbani" Organization: Lucent Technologies, Inc./Bell Laboratories User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0rc1) Gecko/20020417 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dmoreno Cc: SPIRITS list Subject: Re: [SPIRITS] Daniel Moreno's I-D on Mobility Management Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: spirits@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 17:37:59 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alec Brusilovsky wrote: > Ladies and Gentlemen, > > Please take a look at the new I-D "Mobility Events Management in > SPIRITS" that was posted by Daniel Moreno and is available from: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-moreno-mobility-events-00.txt > > This I-D describes in detail mobility events as per SPIRITS Architecture > and SPIRITS Protocol Requirements. Daniel: Thanks for getting this out -- we need some mobility expertise for the protocol document, and I am hoping to tap into you for this. Taking a look at your I-D, I have the following comment: I am trying to use the nomenclature of "subscriber" and "notifier" in relating to the SPIRITS entities in the SPIRITS protocol I-D. Unfortunately, the terms "client" and "server" are severly over-loaded; using "subscriber" and "notifier" makes it clear which entity subscribes to the PSTN events (SPIRITS server) and which one generates the notification (SPIRITS client). Also, I will be working on updating the SPIRITS protocol I-D and would love to include a service call flow based on mobility events. I will get in touch with you to work out the details of such a service. For right now, I am toying with the following mobility services: (1) When a mobil phone registers, the event generates a notification to interested parties, (2) A mobil phone sends a SMS, which gets transformed to an IM and delivered to an Internet host (the SIP IM "page" model) (3) Location-based service: I personally would love this service since my spouse has the car today -- it would be great if an IM could pop up on my work computer when she is within 1 mile radius of my office. Then, I can wind work down and meet her outside my office. If anyone has any other ideas, please lets discuss them; I definitely need a mobility/wireless service for the protocol I-D which I am currently revising for 54th IETF. Best regards, - vijay -- Vijay K. Gurbani vkg@{lucent.com,research.bell-labs.com,acm.org} Wireless Networks Group/Internet Software and Services Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs Innovations, 2000 Lucent Lane, Rm 6G-440 Naperville, Illinois 60566 Voice: +1 630 224 0216 _______________________________________________ SPIRITS mailing list SPIRITS@lists.bell-labs.com http://lists.bell-labs.com/mailman/listinfo/spirits From spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 16 12:32:56 2002 Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA01151 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:32:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4GGX1N21764; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:33:01 -0400 Received: from crufty.research.bell-labs.com (ns2.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.49]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4GGWlN21751 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:32:47 -0400 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (H-135-104-27-211.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.27.211]) by crufty.research.bell-labs.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g4GGWlEF054368 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:32:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) id 247214439E; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:32:42 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: spirits@sunny.research.bell-labs.com Received: from grubby.research.bell-labs.com (guard.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.2.9]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFACD4439D for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:32:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dusty.research.bell-labs.com (dusty.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.2.7]) by grubby.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4GGWdo26698 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:32:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m2-pasarela3.airtel.es ([212.166.209.12]) by dusty; Thu May 16 12:27:42 EDT 2002 Subject: Re: [SPIRITS] Daniel Moreno's I-D on Mobility Management To: "Vijay K. Gurbani" Cc: SPIRITS list X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.8 June 18, 2001 Message-ID: From: dmoreno@airtel.es X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on M2-SMTP3/AIRTEL(Release 5.0.5 |September 22, 2000) at 05/16/2002 06:32:28 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: spirits@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 18:31:55 +0200 Hi Vijay: I agree with you that the terms "subscriber" and "notifier" could be clearer for services specifications. I decided to use the server and client terms in order to respect the entities defined in SPIRITS architecture, but if we think about services running over SIP the former terms could be used if the correspondences with the formal ones are mentioned. I have some doubts about the possible implementation of the services you've mentioned: In service (2) you are taking for granted that the sending of a SMS will be a Detection Point. I think that this kind of action is not considered in the SPIRITS protocol, although it is in CAMEL phase 3. Service (3) is a good idea, but I think you won't be able to select the radius, as the mobility event will be triggered whenever her mobile phone moves to another Service Area, which could be larger than you wish (depends on the Operator's network design pattern). Anyway, you would be noticed when she was getting in your Service area, but probably further than 1 mile (depends on your own position too). I'll be glad to help you as much as I can, of course. Good ideas are always wellcome. Kind regards, Daniel Moreno. "Vijay K. Gurbani" @lists.bell-labs.com con fecha 16/05/2002 00:37:59 Enviado por: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Asunto: Re: [SPIRITS] Daniel Moreno's I-D on Mobility Management Alec Brusilovsky wrote: > Ladies and Gentlemen, > > Please take a look at the new I-D "Mobility Events Management in > SPIRITS" that was posted by Daniel Moreno and is available from: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-moreno-mobility-events-00.txt > > This I-D describes in detail mobility events as per SPIRITS Architecture > and SPIRITS Protocol Requirements. Daniel: Thanks for getting this out -- we need some mobility expertise for the protocol document, and I am hoping to tap into you for this. Taking a look at your I-D, I have the following comment: I am trying to use the nomenclature of "subscriber" and "notifier" in relating to the SPIRITS entities in the SPIRITS protocol I-D. Unfortunately, the terms "client" and "server" are severly over-loaded; using "subscriber" and "notifier" makes it clear which entity subscribes to the PSTN events (SPIRITS server) and which one generates the notification (SPIRITS client). Also, I will be working on updating the SPIRITS protocol I-D and would love to include a service call flow based on mobility events. I will get in touch with you to work out the details of such a service. For right now, I am toying with the following mobility services: (1) When a mobil phone registers, the event generates a notification to interested parties, (2) A mobil phone sends a SMS, which gets transformed to an IM and delivered to an Internet host (the SIP IM "page" model) (3) Location-based service: I personally would love this service since my spouse has the car today -- it would be great if an IM could pop up on my work computer when she is within 1 mile radius of my office. Then, I can wind work down and meet her outside my office. If anyone has any other ideas, please lets discuss them; I definitely need a mobility/wireless service for the protocol I-D which I am currently revising for 54th IETF. Best regards, - vijay -- Vijay K. Gurbani vkg@{lucent.com,research.bell-labs.com,acm.org} Wireless Networks Group/Internet Software and Services Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs Innovations, 2000 Lucent Lane, Rm 6G-440 Naperville, Illinois 60566 Voice: +1 630 224 0216 _______________________________________________ SPIRITS mailing list SPIRITS@lists.bell-labs.com http://lists.bell-labs.com/mailman/listinfo/spirits _______________________________________________ SPIRITS mailing list SPIRITS@lists.bell-labs.com http://lists.bell-labs.com/mailman/listinfo/spirits From spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 16 12:44:55 2002 Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA01512 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:44:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4GGj2N21905; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:45:02 -0400 Received: from dirty.research.bell-labs.com (ns1.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.6]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4GGinN21886 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:44:49 -0400 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (H-135-104-27-211.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.27.211]) by dirty.research.bell-labs.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g4GGjvUL070944 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:45:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) id 9E4764439E; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:44:43 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: spirits@sunny.research.bell-labs.com Received: from scummy.research.bell-labs.com (guard.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.2.10]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 781024439D for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:44:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotair.hobl.lucent.com (hotair.hobl.lucent.com [199.118.135.2]) by scummy.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4GGigk55420 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:44:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bell-labs.com by hotair.hobl.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-1.5 sol2) id MAA23797; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:44:38 -0400 Message-ID: <3CE3E1DA.311C9A28@bell-labs.com> From: Igor Faynberg Reply-To: faynberg@lucent.com Organization: Lucent Technologies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD EMS-1.5 (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dmoreno@airtel.es Cc: "Vijay K. Gurbani" , SPIRITS list Subject: Re: [SPIRITS] Daniel Moreno's I-D on Mobility Management References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: spirits@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 12:44:10 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit dmoreno@airtel.es wrote: > >... > I decided to use the server and client terms in order to respect the entities > defined in SPIRITS architecture... > Well, it is a very serious and sound consideration. I agree that it it is better not to redefine the terminology now. Igor _______________________________________________ SPIRITS mailing list SPIRITS@lists.bell-labs.com http://lists.bell-labs.com/mailman/listinfo/spirits From spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 16 12:58:00 2002 Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA02133 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:58:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4GGw2N22063; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:58:02 -0400 Received: from dirty.research.bell-labs.com (dirty.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.6]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4GGvHN22039 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:57:17 -0400 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (H-135-104-27-211.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.27.211]) by dirty.research.bell-labs.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g4GGwQUL071103 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:58:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) id 1CFBA4439E; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:57:12 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: spirits@sunny.research.bell-labs.com Received: from grubby.research.bell-labs.com (guard.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.2.9]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBB4E4439D for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:57:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ih2mail.ih.lucent.com (ih2mail.ih.lucent.com [135.1.241.39]) by grubby.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4GGv9o28968 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:57:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lucent.com by ih2mail.ih.lucent.com (8.8.8+Sun/EMS-1.5 sol2) id LAA27333; Thu, 16 May 2002 11:57:05 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3CE3E4DF.5000604@lucent.com> From: "Vijay K. Gurbani" Organization: Lucent Technologies, Inc./Bell Laboratories User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0rc1) Gecko/20020417 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: faynberg@lucent.com Cc: dmoreno@airtel.es, SPIRITS list Subject: Re: [SPIRITS] Daniel Moreno's I-D on Mobility Management References: <3CE3E1DA.311C9A28@bell-labs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: spirits@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 11:57:03 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Igor Faynberg wrote: > dmoreno@airtel.es wrote: > >>... >>I decided to use the server and client terms in order to respect the >>entities defined in SPIRITS architecture... > > Well, it is a very serious and sound consideration. I agree that it it > is better not to redefine the terminology now. Igor: I am not by any means suggesting that we re-define terminology at all; it stays as it is in the SPIRITS architecture RFC 3136. Just that in colloquial use it helps when talking about these services to think in terms of subscribers and notifiers. Thanks, - vijay -- Vijay K. Gurbani vkg@{lucent.com,research.bell-labs.com,acm.org} Wireless Networks Group/Internet Software and Services Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs Innovations, 2000 Lucent Lane, Rm 6G-440 Naperville, Illinois 60566 Voice: +1 630 224 0216 _______________________________________________ SPIRITS mailing list SPIRITS@lists.bell-labs.com http://lists.bell-labs.com/mailman/listinfo/spirits From spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 16 13:12:54 2002 Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA02679 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 13:12:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4GHD1N22244; Thu, 16 May 2002 13:13:02 -0400 Received: from dirty.research.bell-labs.com (ns1.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.6]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4GHCJN22231 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 13:12:19 -0400 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (H-135-104-27-211.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.27.211]) by dirty.research.bell-labs.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g4GHDSUL071297 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 13:13:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) id 80CE24439E; Thu, 16 May 2002 13:12:14 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: spirits@sunny.research.bell-labs.com Received: from grubby.research.bell-labs.com (guard.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.2.9]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A9AF4439D for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 13:12:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ih2mail.ih.lucent.com (ih2mail.ih.lucent.com [135.1.241.39]) by grubby.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4GHCCo30450 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 13:12:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lucent.com by ih2mail.ih.lucent.com (8.8.8+Sun/EMS-1.5 sol2) id MAA04540; Thu, 16 May 2002 12:12:10 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3CE3E868.8090408@lucent.com> From: "Vijay K. Gurbani" Organization: Lucent Technologies, Inc./Bell Laboratories User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0rc1) Gecko/20020417 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dmoreno@airtel.es Cc: SPIRITS list Subject: Re: [SPIRITS] Daniel Moreno's I-D on Mobility Management References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: spirits@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 12:12:08 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit dmoreno@airtel.es wrote: > Hi Vijay: [...] Hi Daniel: > I have some doubts about the possible implementation of the services > you've mentioned: In service (2) you are taking for granted that the > sending of a SMS will be a Detection Point. I think that this kind of > action is not considered in the SPIRITS protocol, although it is in > CAMEL phase 3. I am inclined to think that if the DP is detected in CAMEL, then a SPIRITS service is possible. All things being equal, SPIRITS should not really care if CAMEL or CS-x is being used underneath. > Service (3) is a good idea, but I think you won't be able to select > the radius, as the mobility event will be triggered whenever her > mobile phone moves to another Service Area, which could be larger than > you wish (depends on the Operator's network design pattern). Anyway, > you would be noticed when she was getting in your Service area, but > probably further than 1 mile (depends on your own position too). The 1 mile figure was for illustration purpose only; it was not a normative definition for the service. So long as I got notified when she is in my service area, I can think of other services to leverage based on that alone. > I'll be glad to help you as much as I can, of course. Good ideas > are always wellcome. Great! I will be sending you an I-D on location-based services in SPIRITS within the next few days. We can discuss it up and publish it after you go through it and suggest any modifications. Best regards, - vijay -- Vijay K. Gurbani vkg@{lucent.com,research.bell-labs.com,acm.org} Wireless Networks Group/Internet Software and Services Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs Innovations, 2000 Lucent Lane, Rm 6G-440 Naperville, Illinois 60566 Voice: +1 630 224 0216 _______________________________________________ SPIRITS mailing list SPIRITS@lists.bell-labs.com http://lists.bell-labs.com/mailman/listinfo/spirits From spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 16 13:17:50 2002 Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA02791 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 13:17:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4GHI1N22349; Thu, 16 May 2002 13:18:01 -0400 Received: from dirty.research.bell-labs.com (ns1.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.6]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4GHHSN22336 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 13:17:28 -0400 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (H-135-104-27-211.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.27.211]) by dirty.research.bell-labs.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g4GHIbUL071379 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 13:18:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) id 297CC4439E; Thu, 16 May 2002 13:17:23 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: spirits@sunny.research.bell-labs.com Received: from scummy.research.bell-labs.com (guard.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.2.10]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 034784439D for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 13:17:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotair.hobl.lucent.com (hotair.hobl.lucent.com [199.118.135.2]) by scummy.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4GHHLk57989 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 13:17:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bell-labs.com by hotair.hobl.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-1.5 sol2) id NAA27933; Thu, 16 May 2002 13:17:14 -0400 Message-ID: <3CE3E97D.3770CFA2@bell-labs.com> From: Igor Faynberg Reply-To: faynberg@lucent.com Organization: Lucent Technologies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD EMS-1.5 (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Vijay K. Gurbani" Cc: faynberg@lucent.com, dmoreno@airtel.es, SPIRITS list Subject: Re: [SPIRITS] Daniel Moreno's I-D on Mobility Management References: <3CE3E1DA.311C9A28@bell-labs.com> <3CE3E4DF.5000604@lucent.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: spirits@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 13:16:45 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Vijay K. Gurbani" wrote: > > > I am not by any means suggesting that we re-define terminology at all; > it stays as it is in the SPIRITS architecture RFC 3136. > > Just that in colloquial use it helps when talking about these services > to think in terms of subscribers and notifiers. > Sounds like an excellent editorial strategy! I don't have any problem with that. Igor _______________________________________________ SPIRITS mailing list SPIRITS@lists.bell-labs.com http://lists.bell-labs.com/mailman/listinfo/spirits From spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Thu May 16 16:02:52 2002 Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA09325 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 16:02:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4GK31N23298; Thu, 16 May 2002 16:03:01 -0400 Received: from dirty.research.bell-labs.com (dirty.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.6]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4GK24N23285 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 16:02:04 -0400 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (H-135-104-27-211.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.27.211]) by dirty.research.bell-labs.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g4GK3CUL073427 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 16:03:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) id 9A6C14439E; Thu, 16 May 2002 16:01:58 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: spirits@sunny.research.bell-labs.com Received: from grubby.research.bell-labs.com (guard.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.2.9]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7434B4439D for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 16:01:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ih2mail.ih.lucent.com (ih2mail.ih.lucent.com [135.1.241.39]) by grubby.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4GK1uo45427 for ; Thu, 16 May 2002 16:01:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lucent.com by ih2mail.ih.lucent.com (8.8.8+Sun/EMS-1.5 sol2) id PAA02669; Thu, 16 May 2002 15:01:53 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3CE41032.5C2EE756@lucent.com> From: Alec Brusilovsky Organization: Lucent Technologies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en,ru,uk MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Vijay K. Gurbani" Cc: dmoreno@airtel.es, SPIRITS list Subject: Re: [SPIRITS] Daniel Moreno's I-D on Mobility Management References: <3CE3E868.8090408@lucent.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4B1B251023EAE3D8CE117837" Sender: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: spirits@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 15:01:54 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4B1B251023EAE3D8CE117837 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Daniel, Igor, Vijay, Today's prepaid wireless is handled by CAMEL3. Here is yet another possible SPIRITS service: IM notification when someone prepaid balance is below certain amount. Regards, Alec "Vijay K. Gurbani" wrote: > dmoreno@airtel.es wrote: > > Hi Vijay: > [...] > > Hi Daniel: > > > I have some doubts about the possible implementation of the services > > you've mentioned: In service (2) you are taking for granted that the > > sending of a SMS will be a Detection Point. I think that this kind of > > action is not considered in the SPIRITS protocol, although it is in > > CAMEL phase 3. > > I am inclined to think that if the DP is detected in CAMEL, then a > SPIRITS service is possible. All things being equal, SPIRITS should > not really care if CAMEL or CS-x is being used underneath. > > > Service (3) is a good idea, but I think you won't be able to select > > the radius, as the mobility event will be triggered whenever her > > mobile phone moves to another Service Area, which could be larger than > > you wish (depends on the Operator's network design pattern). Anyway, > > you would be noticed when she was getting in your Service area, but > > probably further than 1 mile (depends on your own position too). > > The 1 mile figure was for illustration purpose only; it was not a > normative definition for the service. So long as I got notified > when she is in my service area, I can think of other services to > leverage based on that alone. > > > I'll be glad to help you as much as I can, of course. Good ideas > > are always wellcome. > > Great! I will be sending you an I-D on location-based services in > SPIRITS within the next few days. We can discuss it up and publish > it after you go through it and suggest any modifications. > > Best regards, > > - vijay > -- > Vijay K. Gurbani vkg@{lucent.com,research.bell-labs.com,acm.org} > Wireless Networks Group/Internet Software and Services > Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs Innovations, 2000 Lucent Lane, Rm 6G-440 > Naperville, Illinois 60566 Voice: +1 630 224 0216 > > _______________________________________________ > SPIRITS mailing list > SPIRITS@lists.bell-labs.com > http://lists.bell-labs.com/mailman/listinfo/spirits --------------4B1B251023EAE3D8CE117837 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="abrusilovsky.vcf" Content-Description: Card for Alec Brusilovsky Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="abrusilovsky.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit begin:vcard n:Brusilovsky;Alec tel;fax:+1 630 713 5840 tel;work:+1 630 713 8401 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:e-Services Group;Next Generation Evolution and Architecture version:2.1 email;internet:abrusilovsky@lucent.com title:MTS adr;quoted-printable:;;Room 6H-438=0D=0A2000 Lucent Lane,;Naperville;IL;60566;U S x-mozilla-cpt:;5280 fn:Alec Brusilovsky end:vcard --------------4B1B251023EAE3D8CE117837-- _______________________________________________ SPIRITS mailing list SPIRITS@lists.bell-labs.com http://lists.bell-labs.com/mailman/listinfo/spirits From spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 17 03:16:57 2002 Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA04653 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 03:16:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4H7H1N26980; Fri, 17 May 2002 03:17:01 -0400 Received: from dirty.research.bell-labs.com (ns1.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.6]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4H7GwN26967 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 03:16:58 -0400 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (H-135-104-27-211.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.27.211]) by dirty.research.bell-labs.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g4H7I6UL079464 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 03:18:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) id 618BC4439E; Fri, 17 May 2002 03:16:53 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: spirits@sunny.research.bell-labs.com Received: from scummy.research.bell-labs.com (guard.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.2.10]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5EA94439D for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 03:16:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dusty.research.bell-labs.com (dusty.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.2.7]) by scummy.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4H7Gpk15186 for ; Fri, 17 May 2002 03:16:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m2-pasarela3.airtel.es ([212.166.209.12]) by dusty; Fri May 17 03:12:03 EDT 2002 Subject: Re: [SPIRITS] Daniel Moreno's I-D on Mobility Management To: "Vijay K. Gurbani" Cc: SPIRITS list X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.8 June 18, 2001 Message-ID: From: dmoreno@airtel.es X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on M2-SMTP3/AIRTEL(Release 5.0.5 |September 22, 2000) at 05/17/2002 09:16:49 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: spirits@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 09:16:41 +0200 Vijay: The problem I see is that you haven't defined the way to communicate that event (sending an SMS) to the SPIRITS client, because that's a "type of call" not considered in the SPIRITS protocol requirements. I mentioned about CAMEL because it allows notifying such events, but SPIRITS is not going to use them, unless we change the protocol definition. Kind regards, Daniel. "Vijay K. Gurbani" @lists.bell-labs.com con fecha 16/05/2002 19:12:08 Enviado por: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Asunto: Re: [SPIRITS] Daniel Moreno's I-D on Mobility Management dmoreno@airtel.es wrote: > Hi Vijay: [...] Hi Daniel: > I have some doubts about the possible implementation of the services > you've mentioned: In service (2) you are taking for granted that the > sending of a SMS will be a Detection Point. I think that this kind of > action is not considered in the SPIRITS protocol, although it is in > CAMEL phase 3. I am inclined to think that if the DP is detected in CAMEL, then a SPIRITS service is possible. All things being equal, SPIRITS should not really care if CAMEL or CS-x is being used underneath. > Service (3) is a good idea, but I think you won't be able to select > the radius, as the mobility event will be triggered whenever her > mobile phone moves to another Service Area, which could be larger than > you wish (depends on the Operator's network design pattern). Anyway, > you would be noticed when she was getting in your Service area, but > probably further than 1 mile (depends on your own position too). The 1 mile figure was for illustration purpose only; it was not a normative definition for the service. So long as I got notified when she is in my service area, I can think of other services to leverage based on that alone. > I'll be glad to help you as much as I can, of course. Good ideas > are always wellcome. Great! I will be sending you an I-D on location-based services in SPIRITS within the next few days. We can discuss it up and publish it after you go through it and suggest any modifications. Best regards, - vijay -- Vijay K. Gurbani vkg@{lucent.com,research.bell-labs.com,acm.org} Wireless Networks Group/Internet Software and Services Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs Innovations, 2000 Lucent Lane, Rm 6G-440 Naperville, Illinois 60566 Voice: +1 630 224 0216 _______________________________________________ SPIRITS mailing list SPIRITS@lists.bell-labs.com http://lists.bell-labs.com/mailman/listinfo/spirits _______________________________________________ SPIRITS mailing list SPIRITS@lists.bell-labs.com http://lists.bell-labs.com/mailman/listinfo/spirits From spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Sun May 19 05:51:07 2002 Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA00908 for ; Sun, 19 May 2002 05:51:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4J9p2N14967; Sun, 19 May 2002 05:51:04 -0400 Received: from dirty.research.bell-labs.com (ns1.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.6]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4J9nwN14933 for ; Sun, 19 May 2002 05:49:58 -0400 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (H-135-104-27-211.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.27.211]) by dirty.research.bell-labs.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g4J9p0UL098444 for ; Sun, 19 May 2002 05:51:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) id 0E3764439E; Sun, 19 May 2002 05:49:53 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: spirits@sunny.research.bell-labs.com Received: from scummy.research.bell-labs.com (guard.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.2.10]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFFC14439D for ; Sun, 19 May 2002 05:49:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nl0006exch001h.wins.lucent.com (nl0006exch001h.nl.lucent.com [135.85.76.62]) by scummy.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4J9nok46740 for ; Sun, 19 May 2002 05:49:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nl0006exch001h.nl.lucent.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Sun, 19 May 2002 11:49:49 +0200 Message-ID: From: "Unmehopa, Musa (Musa)" To: "'Vijay K. Gurbani'" , dmoreno@airtel.es Cc: SPIRITS list Subject: RE: [SPIRITS] Daniel Moreno's I-D on Mobility Management MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: spirits@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 11:49:47 +0200 Hi, > I am inclined to think that if the DP is > detected in CAMEL, then a SPIRITS service is > possible. All things being equal, SPIRITS > should not really care if CAMEL or CS-x is being > used underneath. This is exactly what is about. Furthermore, the process of identifying which parameters to carry, as described in equally applies to CAMEL. It is unfortunate that we did not further investigate the ASN.1-to-XML generation. cheers, Musa _______________________________________________ SPIRITS mailing list SPIRITS@lists.bell-labs.com http://lists.bell-labs.com/mailman/listinfo/spirits From spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Mon May 20 10:20:01 2002 Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA25214 for ; Mon, 20 May 2002 10:20:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4KEK6N24257; Mon, 20 May 2002 10:20:06 -0400 Received: from dirty.research.bell-labs.com (dirty.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.6]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4KEJpN24235 for ; Mon, 20 May 2002 10:19:51 -0400 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (H-135-104-27-211.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.27.211]) by dirty.research.bell-labs.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g4KEKpUL006309 for ; Mon, 20 May 2002 10:20:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) id A0EB34439E; Mon, 20 May 2002 10:19:46 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: spirits@sunny.research.bell-labs.com Received: from scummy.research.bell-labs.com (guard.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.2.10]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 816EE4439D for ; Mon, 20 May 2002 10:19:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ih2mail.ih.lucent.com (ih2mail.ih.lucent.com [135.1.241.39]) by scummy.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4KEJjk08151 for ; Mon, 20 May 2002 10:19:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lucent.com by ih2mail.ih.lucent.com (8.8.8+Sun/EMS-1.5 sol2) id JAA19878; Mon, 20 May 2002 09:19:41 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3CE905F4.6020708@lucent.com> From: "Vijay K. Gurbani" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0rc1) Gecko/20020417 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dmoreno@airtel.es Cc: SPIRITS list Subject: Re: [SPIRITS] Daniel Moreno's I-D on Mobility Management References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: spirits@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 09:19:32 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit dmoreno@airtel.es wrote: > Vijay: > The problem I see is that you haven't defined the way to communicate > that event (sending an SMS) to > the SPIRITS client, because that's a "type of call" not considered in > the SPIRITS protocol > requirements. Ah, I see what you mean. It's not a question of technical merit, rather semantics; namely, is SMS a "call" per se. > I mentioned about CAMEL because it allows notifying such events, but > SPIRITS is not > going to use them, unless we change the protocol definition. In the SPIRITS requirements I-D, section 3 (towards the end of the section) discusses this: A particular Wireless IN standard development being considered here is CAMEL phase 3, standardised by the Third Generation Partnertship group (3GPP). The relevant service and architectural considerations and protocol requirements are presented later in this document. As far as the architecture is concerned, certain wireless events are generated by Home Location Register (HLR), which may, but does not have to, be part of the Mobile Switching Center (MSC) (a wireless equivalnet of the SSP). These events are communicated to Service Control, at which point they use the same mechanism for invoking SPIRITS services that the IN would. Thus, it would appear that CAMEL events are just as applicable to SPIRITS. Furthermore, a lot of location services will happen out- side the context of a call, so I would hate to tie ourselves to services within the context of a call only. Thanks. - vijay _______________________________________________ SPIRITS mailing list SPIRITS@lists.bell-labs.com http://lists.bell-labs.com/mailman/listinfo/spirits From spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Mon May 20 13:15:11 2002 Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA19745 for ; Mon, 20 May 2002 13:15:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4KHF1N25311; Mon, 20 May 2002 13:15:01 -0400 Received: from dirty.research.bell-labs.com (dirty.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.6]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4KHETN25292 for ; Mon, 20 May 2002 13:14:29 -0400 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (H-135-104-27-211.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.27.211]) by dirty.research.bell-labs.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g4KHFSUL010799 for ; Mon, 20 May 2002 13:15:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) id 0E15B4439E; Mon, 20 May 2002 13:14:24 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: spirits@sunny.research.bell-labs.com Received: from grubby.research.bell-labs.com (guard.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.2.9]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D69A84439D for ; Mon, 20 May 2002 13:14:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dusty.research.bell-labs.com (dusty.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.2.7]) by grubby.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id g4KHEMo04113 for ; Mon, 20 May 2002 13:14:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m2-pasarela3.airtel.es ([212.166.209.12]) by dusty; Mon May 20 13:09:33 EDT 2002 Subject: Re: [SPIRITS] Daniel Moreno's I-D on Mobility Management To: "Vijay K. Gurbani" Cc: dmoreno@airtel.es, SPIRITS list X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.8 June 18, 2001 Message-ID: From: jgato@airtel.es X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on M2-SMTP3/AIRTEL(Release 5.0.5 |September 22, 2000) at 05/20/2002 07:14:20 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: spirits@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 19:14:17 +0200 Vijay, all, When we wrote part of the SPIRITS requirements I-Ds. we considered that we should try to add to SPIRITS only SS7-IP type of services which could not be easily provided at the moment. Therefore, we considered SMS and GPRS out of scope. The reason why the SMS (and other not circuit switched "calls") were specifically not included in SPIRITS requirements is that IP services for them can be already provided. An SMS sent to a specific number can be screened by the SMSC node and handled using SMTP (a well known protocol) to an IP server (and vice versa an IP server can send an SMS). This is heavily used by mobile operators for many services (like SMS voting, SMS alerts, etc.). GPRS sessions go, via a GGSN to the Internet. So IP services can be provided there (and also the IMS domain in UMTS release 5 is devoted to IP services over the Packet Subsystem of UMTS) and using SPIRITS for this is a loser option. Thus a server in the IP domain can use SPIRITS to receive call events (and interact which voice applications), SMTP to send/receive SMS, and other protocols to interact with GPRS sessions. If there is a specific service case for SMS/GPRS which requires CAMEL triggering to a SPIRITS (and can not be done via other existing and feasible technologies), I agree that the initial scope of SPIRITS can be revisited. Best regards, Jorge "Vijay K. Gurbani" @lists.bell-labs.com con fecha 20/05/2002 16:19:32 Enviado por: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Asunto: Re: [SPIRITS] Daniel Moreno's I-D on Mobility Management dmoreno@airtel.es wrote: > Vijay: > The problem I see is that you haven't defined the way to communicate > that event (sending an SMS) to > the SPIRITS client, because that's a "type of call" not considered in > the SPIRITS protocol > requirements. Ah, I see what you mean. It's not a question of technical merit, rather semantics; namely, is SMS a "call" per se. > I mentioned about CAMEL because it allows notifying such events, but > SPIRITS is not > going to use them, unless we change the protocol definition. In the SPIRITS requirements I-D, section 3 (towards the end of the section) discusses this: A particular Wireless IN standard development being considered here is CAMEL phase 3, standardised by the Third Generation Partnertship group (3GPP). The relevant service and architectural considerations and protocol requirements are presented later in this document. As far as the architecture is concerned, certain wireless events are generated by Home Location Register (HLR), which may, but does not have to, be part of the Mobile Switching Center (MSC) (a wireless equivalnet of the SSP). These events are communicated to Service Control, at which point they use the same mechanism for invoking SPIRITS services that the IN would. Thus, it would appear that CAMEL events are just as applicable to SPIRITS. Furthermore, a lot of location services will happen out- side the context of a call, so I would hate to tie ourselves to services within the context of a call only. Thanks. - vijay _______________________________________________ SPIRITS mailing list SPIRITS@lists.bell-labs.com http://lists.bell-labs.com/mailman/listinfo/spirits _______________________________________________ SPIRITS mailing list SPIRITS@lists.bell-labs.com http://lists.bell-labs.com/mailman/listinfo/spirits From spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Mon May 20 16:33:00 2002 Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA08604 for ; Mon, 20 May 2002 16:32:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4KKX7N26622; Mon, 20 May 2002 16:33:07 -0400 Received: from dirty.research.bell-labs.com (dirty.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.6]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4KKWgN26603 for ; Mon, 20 May 2002 16:32:42 -0400 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (H-135-104-27-211.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.27.211]) by dirty.research.bell-labs.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g4KKXfUL013498 for ; Mon, 20 May 2002 16:33:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) id 4F1144439E; Mon, 20 May 2002 16:32:37 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: spirits@sunny.research.bell-labs.com Received: from grubby.research.bell-labs.com (guard.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.2.9]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24C3D4439D for ; Mon, 20 May 2002 16:32:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ih2mail.ih.lucent.com (ih2mail.ih.lucent.com [135.1.241.39]) by grubby.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4KKWZo22728 for ; Mon, 20 May 2002 16:32:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lucent.com by ih2mail.ih.lucent.com (8.8.8+Sun/EMS-1.5 sol2) id PAA10797; Mon, 20 May 2002 15:32:32 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3CE95D56.4030300@lucent.com> From: "Vijay K. Gurbani" Organization: Lucent Technologies, Inc./Bell Laboratories User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0rc1) Gecko/20020417 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jgato@airtel.es Cc: dmoreno@airtel.es, SPIRITS list Subject: Re: [SPIRITS] Daniel Moreno's I-D on Mobility Management References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: spirits@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 15:32:22 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit jgato@airtel.es wrote: > Vijay, all, [...] Jorge: Thanks for the prompt response. I agree with your email, but I see SMS as great SPIRITS service, and I will try to explain why I think so below. > Therefore, we considered SMS and GPRS out of scope. > > The reason why the SMS (and other not circuit switched "calls") were > specifically not included in SPIRITS requirements is that IP services > for them can be already provided. An SMS sent to a specific number can > be screened by the SMSC node and handled using SMTP (a well known > protocol) to an IP server (and vice versa an IP server can send an SMS). > This is heavily used by mobile operators for many services (like SMS > voting, SMS alerts, etc.). You have an excellent point there; but given where we are today in terms of IM standardization and acceptence, it may be a good idea to revisit the SMS service in terms of SPIRITS. I can think of at least two reasons why a SIP-based solution for SMS->SIP IM is desirable: 1) SIP-based application service providers will find a SIP-based IM extremely attractive since their entire infrastructure is based on SIP (e.g. SUBS/NOT, etc.). To that extent, a SIP message arriving from the wireless PSTN fits better then a SMTP message. Their end users are using SIP UAs anyway to subscribe to/get notification for events. 2) As you point out, SMTP is a well accepted way to do this, but is it the only way? If the messaging protocol we have chosen (namely, SIP) provides an integrated method do deliver short messages, why not use it? > Thus a server in the IP domain can use SPIRITS to receive call events > (and interact which voice applications), SMTP to send/receive SMS, and > other protocols to interact with GPRS sessions. I would not argue as forcefully about GPRS as I am about SMS because I really think that SMS is a good SPIRITS service. Unlike SMTP, which may get queued and not read till later, an Internet subscriber wishing to get SMS over SIP IM is really expressing a preference to see the instant messages (SMS content) in hard real time. I am not advocating scrapping SMTP out of SMSC; to me SIP-IM SMS is a different service. Users who want information in real time (and have SIP ASPs) can use the SIP based solution; others can continue using SMTP. > If there is a specific service case for SMS/GPRS which requires CAMEL > triggering to a SPIRITS (and can not be done via other existing and > feasible technologies), I agree that the initial scope of SPIRITS can > be revisited. I don't think that we even need to revisit the scope of SPIRITS; your protocol requirement I-D already has it all in! Section 3 of your I-D already talks about using SPIRITS for wireless networks, specifically CAMEL phase 3, being standardized by 3GPP. I hope you see how important SIP-based IM could be to SMS as a SPIRITS service. Please let me know what you think. Best regards, - vijay -- Vijay K. Gurbani vkg@{lucent.com,research.bell-labs.com,acm.org} Wireless Networks Group/Internet Software and Services Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs Innovations, 2000 Lucent Lane, Rm 6G-440 Naperville, Illinois 60566 Voice: +1 630 224 0216 _______________________________________________ SPIRITS mailing list SPIRITS@lists.bell-labs.com http://lists.bell-labs.com/mailman/listinfo/spirits From spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Wed May 22 14:11:49 2002 Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA22803 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 14:11:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4MIC3N13270; Wed, 22 May 2002 14:12:03 -0400 Received: from dirty.research.bell-labs.com (dirty.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.6]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4MIBrN13257 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 14:11:53 -0400 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (H-135-104-27-211.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.27.211]) by dirty.research.bell-labs.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g4MIClUL040661 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 14:12:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) id C50A74439E; Wed, 22 May 2002 14:11:47 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: spirits@sunny.research.bell-labs.com Received: from grubby.research.bell-labs.com (guard.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.2.9]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 877F44439D for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 14:11:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ih2mail.ih.lucent.com (ih2mail.ih.lucent.com [135.1.241.39]) by grubby.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4MIBko11996 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 14:11:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lucent.com by ih2mail.ih.lucent.com (8.8.8+Sun/EMS-1.5 sol2) id NAA23638; Wed, 22 May 2002 13:11:42 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3CEBDF51.3040506@lucent.com> From: "Vijay K. Gurbani" Organization: Lucent Technologies, Inc./Bell Laboratories User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0rc1) Gecko/20020417 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Vijaya Venkatachalam Cc: spirits@lists.bell-labs.com, SIN Design Team References: <3CEBD569.6A4D26AE@ulticom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [SPIRITS] Re: O_BCSM/T_BCSM Sender: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: spirits@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 13:11:29 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vijaya Venkatachalam wrote: > Hi Vijay, > > I have a basic question. > When a SIP INVITE is received by a SIN Enabled SIP Entity, > how do we know whether to trigger the O_BCSM or the > T_BCSM. Both the O_BCSM and T_BCSM state machines will be initialized in any SIN entity (mirroring equivalent processing in the PSTN). The question is when to execute services based on these state machines. For that, it all depends on the context. If the SIN entity is serving the role of a default outbound proxy, O_BCSM applies, for instance. If on the other hand, a SIN entity gets an INVITE and the address-of- record matches, then T_BCSM applies. Thus, for example, take the well known SIP trapezoid: P1-----------------P2 / \ / \ UAC UAS with P1 and UAC being in domain A and P2 and UAS being in domain B. Then, a request from UAC to P1 (INVITE UAS@B) will get O_BCSM services from P1 and the same request will get T_BCSM services at P2 (since the address-of-record matches). BTW, SPIRITS is probably not the best place to ask SIN questions; the SIN design team uses a mailing list for this purpose. By all means, send me private email on SIN questions, and I will answer them, CC'ing the mailing list. If you would like to contribute to other SIN deliverables, please let me know as well (we really need people here...). Best regards, - vijay -- Vijay K. Gurbani vkg@{lucent.com,research.bell-labs.com,acm.org} Wireless Networks Group/Internet Software and Services Lucent Technologies/Bell Labs Innovations, 2000 Lucent Lane, Rm 6G-440 Naperville, Illinois 60566 Voice: +1 630 224 0216 _______________________________________________ SPIRITS mailing list SPIRITS@lists.bell-labs.com http://lists.bell-labs.com/mailman/listinfo/spirits From spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Fri May 24 16:19:01 2002 Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (share.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.58]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA13011 for ; Fri, 24 May 2002 16:19:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from share.research.bell-labs.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4OKJ3N01760; Fri, 24 May 2002 16:19:03 -0400 Received: from dirty.research.bell-labs.com (dirty.research.bell-labs.com [204.178.16.6]) by share.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4OKI1N01738 for ; Fri, 24 May 2002 16:18:01 -0400 Received: from lists.bell-labs.com (H-135-104-27-211.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.27.211]) by dirty.research.bell-labs.com (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g4OKIpUL068502 for ; Fri, 24 May 2002 16:18:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) id 240404439E; Fri, 24 May 2002 16:17:56 -0400 (EDT) Delivered-To: spirits@sunny.research.bell-labs.com Received: from grubby.research.bell-labs.com (guard.research.bell-labs.com [135.104.2.9]) by lists.bell-labs.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC46E4439D for ; Fri, 24 May 2002 16:17:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ih2mail.ih.lucent.com (ih2mail.ih.lucent.com [135.1.241.39]) by grubby.research.bell-labs.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g4OKHso35700 for ; Fri, 24 May 2002 16:17:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lucent.com by ih2mail.ih.lucent.com (8.8.8+Sun/EMS-1.5 sol2) id PAA29452; Fri, 24 May 2002 15:17:53 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3CEE9FF1.1030003@lucent.com> From: Alec Brusilovsky User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4.1) Gecko/20020314 Netscape6/6.2.2 X-Accept-Language: en,ru,uk MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SPIRITS list Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [SPIRITS] Interesting discussion on non cal-related events Sender: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com Errors-To: spirits-admin@lists.bell-labs.com X-BeenThere: spirits@lists.bell-labs.com X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 15:17:53 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ladies and Gentlemen, Quite recently we all witnessed an interesting discussion regarding the meaning on non call-related PSTN events for SPIRITS. Please allow me to thank participants, to summarize that discussion, and to distill the rough technical consensus: - Our Charter does not explicitly discriminate one sort of PSTN events in favor of another sort of PSTN events. The important thing is that these events are supposed to originate in the PSTN/IN (Wireless IN or wireline one). - In fact, the same SPIRITS protocol that enables the SPIRITS "staple" services like ICW and ICIDD is capable of carrying requests and/or notifications, stemming from the non call-related PSTN (wireline, as well as wireless) events. These events are also of interest to SPIRITS. - There is usually more than one way to solve any particular problem or provide a particular service. The choice of the solution, among other things, depends on the existing network configuration (including legacy) and on the overall technology preference. - Some SPIRITS services that are made possible by PSTN (wireline, as well as wireless) events notifications are more advantageous than others. We should not attempt to standardize services. - Once again, we "do not touch" all-IP network (wireline, as well as wireless) events. And, just in case, we do not deal with VoIP. Kind regards, Alec _______________________________________________ SPIRITS mailing list SPIRITS@lists.bell-labs.com http://lists.bell-labs.com/mailman/listinfo/spirits