From nobody Tue Feb 4 04:38:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF20C120020; Tue, 4 Feb 2020 04:38:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.597 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.597 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a3TDLuMqEd0l; Tue, 4 Feb 2020 04:38:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.66.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE95E120071; Tue, 4 Feb 2020 04:38:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from opfedar05.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.7]) by opfedar26.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 48Bkkj5qhSzFqdZ; Tue, 4 Feb 2020 13:38:21 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.89]) by opfedar05.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 48Bkkj4WqTz2xJD; Tue, 4 Feb 2020 13:38:21 +0100 (CET) Received: from OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::b846:2467:1591:5d9d]) by OPEXCAUBM44.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0468.000; Tue, 4 Feb 2020 13:38:21 +0100 From: To: SPRING WG , "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming - 2 week Early Allocation Call Thread-Index: AdW2iKoK1d+PmmgsTNy50jATkx4LXQTj2OFAAAAQX3AET8S2AA== Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2020 12:38:21 +0000 Message-ID: <25071_1580819901_5E3965BD_25071_286_6_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D7A6AA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <18437_1576774434_5DFBAB22_18437_317_31_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D392D1@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <13063_1578923785_5E1C7709_13063_48_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D569B8@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <13063_1578923785_5E1C7709_13063_48_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D569B8@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.245] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D7A6AAOPEXCAUBM43corp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming - 2 week Early Allocation Call X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2020 12:38:28 -0000 --_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D7A6AAOPEXCAUBM43corp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, authors, IANA has made the following early allocation in the Assigned Internet Proto= col Numbers registry: 143 Ethernet Ethernet (TEMPORARY - registered 2020-01-3= 1, expires 2021-01-31) [draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-= programming] Please see https://www.iana.org/assignments/protocol-numbers Authors, please update the draft to reflect this. Thank you, --Bruno From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of bruno.decraene@o= range.com Sent: Monday, January 13, 2020 2:56 PM To: Martin Vigoureux (martin.vigoureux@nokia.com) Cc: SPRING WG Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming - 2 week E= arly Allocation Call Martin, As per RFC 7120 early allocation process, we'd like to request AD approval = for early allocation of an "Ethernet" value from the "Protocol Numbers" reg= istry https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-07#s= ection-9.1 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-07#s= ection-5.3 https://www.iana.org/assignments/protocol-numbers/protocol-numbers.xhtml Thank you, --Bruno From: DECRAENE Bruno TGI/OLN Sent: Monday, January 13, 2020 2:49 PM To: SPRING WG Subject: RE: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming - 2 week Early Allo= cation Call Hi SPRING WG, We have large support for the early allocation and no objection. I'll forward the request to our AD. Thank you, --Bruno From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of bruno.decraene@o= range.com Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2019 5:54 PM To: SPRING WG Subject: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming - 2 week Early= Allocation Call Hi SPRING WG, This begins a 2 week Early Allocation call for a "Ethernet" value from the = "Protocol Numbers" registry. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-07#s= ection-9.1 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-07#s= ection-5.3 https://www.iana.org/assignments/protocol-numbers/protocol-numbers.xhtml In parallel of the Working Group Last Call which is currently running, the = authors are requesting for early code point allocation from IANA as impleme= ntations are under way. The criteria for early allocation are: a. The code points must be from a space designated as "RFC Required", "IETF Review", or "Standards Action". Additionally, requests for early assignment of code points from a "Specification Required" registry are allowed if the specification will be published as an RFC. b. The format, semantics, processing, and other rules related to handling the protocol entities defined by the code points (henceforth called "specifications") must be adequately described in an Internet-Draft. c. The specifications of these code points must be stable; i.e., if there is a change, implementations based on the earlier and later specifications must be seamlessly interoperable. d. The Working Group chairs and Area Directors (ADs) judge that there is sufficient interest in the community for early (pre-RFC) implementation and deployment, or that failure to make an early allocation might lead to contention for the code point in the field. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7120#section-2 I believe the above conditions are met. (minus the AD judgement which is fu= rther down in the process) As a reminder, this topic has mainly been discussed following IETF 105 (Mon= tr=E9al) both during the meeting and on the mailing list. During IETF 106 it has been discussed in the IntArea WG. https://datatracke= r.ietf.org/meeting/106/proceedings#intarea Note that this code point is not to be specific to SRv6. Depending on AD gu= idance, this specific code point even be moved from draft-ietf-spring-srv6-= network-programming into a specific 1 page draft. If you support early adoption, please include "support" along with any com= ments about the draft's technical solution. If you do not support early allocation, please include "no support" in your= email and indicate why. Thank you, --Bruno ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D7A6AAOPEXCAUBM43corp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all, authors,

 

IANA has made the following early allocation in the A= ssigned Internet Protocol Numbers registry:

143     &nbs= p;   Ethernet    &nbs= p;        = Ethernet (TEMPORARY - registered 2020-01-31, expires 2021-01-31)        = ;             [draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming]

 

Please see https://www.iana.org/assig= nments/protocol-numbers

 

 

Authors, please update the draft to reflect this.

 

Thank you,

--Bruno

 

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of bruno.decraene= @orange.com
Sent: Monday, January 13, 2020 2:56 PM
To: Martin Vigoureux (martin.vigoureux= @nokia.com)
Cc: SPRING WG
Subject: Re: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming - 2= week Early Allocation Call

 

Martin,

 

As per RFC 7120 early allocat= ion process, we’d like to request AD approval for early allocation of= an “Ethernet” value from the "Protocol Numbers" registry

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf=
-spring-srv6-network-programming-07#section-9.1
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf=
-spring-srv6-network-programming-07#section-5.3
https://www.iana.org/assignments/protocol-numbers/p=
rotocol-numbers.xhtml

 

Thank you,<= /p>

--Bruno

 

 

From: DECRAENE Bruno TGI/OLN
Sent: Monday, January 13, 2020 2:49 PM
To: SPRING WG
Subject: RE: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming - 2 week Ear= ly Allocation Call

 

Hi SPRING WG,

 

We have large support for the= early allocation and no objection.

I’ll forward the reques= t to our AD.

 

Thank you,<= /p>

--Bruno

 

From:<= /span> spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of bruno.decraene= @orange.com
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2019 5:54 PM
To: SPRING WG
Subject: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming - 2 wee= k Early Allocation Call

 

Hi SPRING WG,
 
This begins a 2 week Early Allocation call for a “Ethe=
rnet” value from the "Protocol Numbers" registry.
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-iet=
f-spring-srv6-network-programming-07#section-9.1
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-iet=
f-spring-srv6-network-programming-07#section-5.3
https://www.iana.org/assignments/protocol-numbers/=
protocol-numbers.xhtml
 
In parallel of the Working Group Last Call which is currentl=
y running, the authors are requesting for early code point allocation from =
IANA as implementations are under way.
 
The criteria for early allocation are:

   a.  The code points must be from a sp=
ace designated as "RFC


    &nb=
sp;  Required", "IETF Review", or "Standard=
s Action".  Additionally,=



    &nb=
sp;  requests for early assignment of code points from a=



    &nb=
sp;  "Specification Required" registry are allowed if=
 the


    &nb=
sp;  specification will be published as an RFC.


 


   b.  The format, semantics, processing=
, and other rules related to


    &nb=
sp;  handling the protocol entities defined by the code points<=
/span>


    &nb=
sp;  (henceforth called "specifications") must be ade=
quately described


    &nb=
sp;  in an Internet-Draft.


 


   c.  The specifications of these code =
points must be stable; i.e., if


    &nb=
sp;  there is a change, implementations based on the earlier an=
d later


    &nb=
sp;  specifications must be seamlessly interoperable.


 


   d.  The Working Group chairs and Area=
 Directors (ADs) judge that


    &nb=
sp;  there is sufficient interest in the community for early (p=
re-RFC)


    &nb=
sp;  implementation and deployment, or that failure to make an =
early


    &nb=
sp;  allocation might lead to contention for the code point in =
the


    &nb=
sp;  field.


ht=
tps://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7120#section-2


 


I believe the above conditions are met. (minus the AD judgem=
ent which is further down in the process)


 


As a reminder, this topic has mainly been discussed followin=
g IETF 105 (Montr=E9al) both during the meeting and on the mailing list.


During IETF 106 it has been discussed in the IntArea WG. https=
://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/106/proceedings#intarea


 


Note that this code point is not to be specific to SRv6. Dep=
ending on AD guidance, this specific code point even be moved from draft-ie=
tf-spring-srv6-network-programming into a specific 1 page draft.


 


If you support early adoption,  please include “s=
upport” along with any comments about the draft’s technical sol=
ution.


 


If you do not support early allocation, please include ̶=
0;no support” in your email and indicate why.


 


Thank you,


--Bruno


 


________________________________________=
___________________________________________________________________________=
______


 


Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent=
 contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent do=
nc


pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies s=
ans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le sign=
aler


a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que =
les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alterat=
ion,


Orange decline toute responsabilite si c=
e message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.


 


This message and its attachments may con=
tain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;


they should not be distributed, used or =
copied without authorisation.


If you have received this email in error=
, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.


As emails may be altered, Orange is not =
liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.


Thank you.


_________________________________________=
___________________________________________________________________________=
_____


 


Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent =
contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent don=
c


pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sa=
ns autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signa=
ler


a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que l=
es pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alterati=
on,


Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce=
 message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.


 


This message and its attachments may cont=
ain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;


they should not be distributed, used or c=
opied without authorisation.


If you have received this email in error,=
 please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.=



As emails may be altered, Orange is not l=
iable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.


Thank you.


______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.
--_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D7A6AAOPEXCAUBM43corp_-- From nobody Fri Feb 7 01:42:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietf.org Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D74CD1200F9; Fri, 7 Feb 2020 01:42:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: spring@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.117.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: spring@ietf.org Message-ID: <158106854174.11648.12577467485126638207@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2020 01:42:21 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-09.txt X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2020 09:42:22 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Source Packet Routing in Networking WG of the IETF. Title : SRv6 Network Programming Authors : Clarence Filsfils Pablo Camarillo Garvia John Leddy Daniel Voyer Satoru Matsushima Zhenbin Li Filename : draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-09.txt Pages : 38 Date : 2020-02-07 Abstract: The SRv6 Network Programming framework enables a network operator or an application to specify a packet packet processing program by encoding a sequence of instructions in the IPv6 packet header. Each instruction is implemented on one or several nodes in the network and identified by an SRv6 Segment Identifier in the packet. This document defines the SRv6 Network Programming concept and specifies the base set of SRv6 behaviors that enables the creation of interoperable overlays with underlay optimization (Service Level Agreements). The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-09 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-09 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-09 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Fri Feb 7 01:58:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C330120132 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2020 01:58:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=lFfT8AYl; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com header.b=N9lqaC5k Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with 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3PsXhK7ORRfs for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2020 06:39:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from jax4mhob17.registeredsite.com (jax4mhob17.registeredsite.com [64.69.218.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 91E62120048 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 2020 06:39:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from atl4oxapp104 ([10.30.71.141]) by jax4mhob17.registeredsite.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 017Ed60J010913 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA256 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 7 Feb 2020 09:39:06 -0500 Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 09:39:05 -0500 (EST) From: "john leddy.net" Reply-To: "john leddy.net" To: bruno.decraene@orange.com, SPRING WG List Message-ID: <741414685.1042764.1581086345994@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> In-Reply-To: <43C8011A-3180-409C-BB4F-655EA564ADD4@cisco.com> References: <26660_1575564615_5DE93547_26660_39_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D1A2A9@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <43C8011A-3180-409C-BB4F-655EA564ADD4@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.0-Rev28 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] IPR poll for draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 07 Feb 2020 14:39:16 -0000 I'm not aware of any undisclosed IPR related to this document. John Leddy > =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message----- > From: "bruno.decraene@orange.com" > Date: Thursday, 5 December 2019 at 17:50 > To: 'SPRING WG List' , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pr= ogramming > Subject: IPR poll for draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming > Resent from: > Resent to: , , , , , > Resent date: Thursday, 5 December 2019 at 17:50 >=20 > Hi SPRING WG, > =20 > In parallel to the WGLC for draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programmin= g, we would like to poll for IPR. > =20 > If you are aware of IPR that applies to draft-ietf-spring-srv6-networ= k-programming [1] please respond to this email. If you are aware of IPR, pl= ease indicate whether it has been > disclosed in accordance with IETF IPR rules (RFCs 3979, 4879, 3669 an= d 5378 provide more details). > =20 > If you are an *author or contributor* please respond to this email re= gardless of whether or not you're aware of any IPR.=20 > =20 > This document will not advance until IPR confirmations have been rece= ived from all authors and contributors. > =20 > Thank you, > Bruno > =20 > [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-progra= mming-05 > =20 > =20 > _____________________________________________________________________= ____________________________________________________ > =20 > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations co= nfidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous ave= z recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messa= ges electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, defor= me ou falsifie. Merci. > =20 > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileg= ed information that may be protected by law; > they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender an= d delete this message and its attachments. > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have= been modified, changed or falsified. > Thank you. > =20 > =20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring From nobody Mon Feb 10 08:07:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA02512021C; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 06:26:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ch2D8cu70ERd; 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Tue, 11 Feb 2020 08:38:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=2B8+O0b6wddSVYFurxE9W1wNukXFDSco1bxZ3hmO5GQ=; b=roHAPNS7WvzhisvMjXCkfYX/vjL3dt4M/8yHC0IGycOZf8X57j658JyQAkJVEV86SE /V9Cmc1ENQqsEwkzzlbuH4esE1CAW4DVXgIP9VYCNQ2k6KdhG85a2uaH6/jqih5VW/U+ fQX5m+wxmgKgFkD83HgjggEd2wzMbhCOOzKaff2Q8Eu6lt+ssN48Lpywa5gvplnulNXt rvAz4ffgLiKvGJLznEBRPqYP3+pM6QxfbQFxfnMxt7ABRZtv82Aos23RiAY8PD/JYnXL Qle+i2G13LYN4X9ALWGXpRIpx52upJSVIqo85TWyal8TRorbRID9Ugv8L1lLZnkYhuCv b9XQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=2B8+O0b6wddSVYFurxE9W1wNukXFDSco1bxZ3hmO5GQ=; b=lElyAXjizRXA0Pb4UVrvwrX1pvc0G5VtPinvxfjjeo5WQHpSEkgfudwsQSb2EX7uxl S0eCrHifW7aVir/y40ZP+X3NeBmTEcURtzzE/4y9s+lPUMHrhWT3JGH1wJFwW+9YQ/KG 2DwmD+HgsOb6eJ3yfZC7PLCk66stN2fYPJOOvhmtpqN7lE83PImUJDUPQvFnaK/6m7zm xwthLeByZFomrH7i6Q4bOM1xZHDavEXpbHSjXbFl04RphlEDxyU5MCeHXhe5Rohbx3vw n2P/GOiwkNRnVfLA8vqAa8H8fBGyqNIeXEp1evYCbu2J7p3hPeqqkny0IlIOILtv5Xlm PJMw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVWnAF4wss3GkptX5qIJ6g/+b4qMajx27ZmPuOLLLXDLaa9M/N/ 8dG+YFWbiifbLuPw9mUGlXf4dotYeEXgW4CJgmCTiw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzu6qwO3Q29wWqa0lyId64Y6yDVfeTUtASv14A3ZJ/8ydT8Qy+wn+KR4GFe1JmJpqYgfuhR+m1LboAyWO8Syh8= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:7c08:: with SMTP id x8mr4644510ljc.185.1581439115680; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 08:38:35 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <17421_1575566127_5DE93B2F_17421_93_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D1A3DA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <238769EE-8272-420D-A2A4-BFECCE6E09AC@cisco.com> <70A6F938-29B0-473E-8559-7E20C7E992BD@cisco.com> <5BF8B291-479F-400C-A551-8EF76F8F8090@cisco.com> <96CDB8DF-1741-4165-81CD-DEFE39416911@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <96CDB8DF-1741-4165-81CD-DEFE39416911@cisco.com> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 08:38:23 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" Cc: "spring@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b95e32059e4f7c1a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 16:38:42 -0000 --000000000000b95e32059e4f7c1a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Pablo, thank you for considering my comments and making the update. I think that it is up to others interested, in particular in OAM of SRv6, to share their opinions regarding the relationship between this draft and SRv6 OAM documen= t that is in 6man WG. Maybe Chairs of SPRING WG will reach out to 6man WG to consider the relationship between the documents. Regarding the counters being defined in the document. I think that the primary use of counters is by OAM. Thus, I think it would be appropriate to define and demonstrate the use of these counters in SRv6 OAM specification. Regards, Greg On Fri, Feb 7, 2020 at 2:03 AM Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) < pcamaril@cisco.com> wrote: > Greg, > > > > We have published an updated revision of the draft that incorporates the > change. See more inline PC2. > > > > Many thanks, > > Pablo. > > > > *From: *Greg Mirsky > *Date: *Monday, 27 January 2020 at 06:36 > *To: *"Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" > *Cc: *"spring@ietf.org" > *Subject: *Re: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming > > > > Hi Pablo, > > thank you for your thoughtful consideration of my comments. Please find m= y > new notes in-line below tagged GIM>>. > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 11:08 PM Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) < > pcamaril@cisco.com> wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > > > Inline. > > > > Thanks, > > Pablo. > > > > *From: *Greg Mirsky > *Date: *Sunday, 19 January 2020 at 20:28 > *To: *"Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" > *Cc: *"spring@ietf.org" > *Subject: *Re: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming > > > > Hi Pablo, > > thank you for sharing your opinion. I understand that you believe that > draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam will not change and will be published wit= h > defining the O-flag as > > O-flag: OAM flag. When set, it indicates that this packet is an > operations and management (OAM) packet. > > I, on the other hand, am much less certain that that draft and SRv6 OAM, > in general, require the special flag in SRH. I believe that progressing > the draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming with the current text and > the informative reference increases the likelihood that an Errata must be > filed one the SRv6 OAM draft is published. > > > > PC: > > I believe that we can trim the text in section 6.3 to avoid mentioning th= e > O-bit without reducing the overall quality of the document. > > > > [I-D.ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam] defines OAM behaviors for SRv6. This > > includes the definition of the SRH Flag 'O-bit', as well as > > additional SR Endpoint behaviors for OAM purposes. > > > > > > [I-D.ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam] defines OAM behaviors for SRv6. This > > includes the definition of additional SR Endpoint behaviors for OAM > purposes. > > > > Do you agree with this change? > > GIM>> I agree that the new text is more clear and less dependent on the > discussion of I-D.ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam. Though the "OAM behaviors fo= r > SRv6" that are introduced in the draft, i.e., "punt the packet" and "punt > the packet with a timestamp", are being discussed and may change as the > result of the discussion by 6man WG. Hence I think that it be better to n= ot > to reference I-D.ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam altogether. > > > > PC2: I have updated the draft to remove the reference to O-bit as you > agreed. > > Regarding removing the full reference to the OAM draft: I believe that th= e > new text is generic enough as to be good regardless of the changes during > the WG LC of the OAM draft. I believe that the reference is useful for > someone implementing it. > > > > And as we're discussing a sub-section in the Operation section, I've got > few questions on counters, hope you don't mind: > > =C2=B7 As this is part of the operational considerations, should = there > be any recommendation on the length of the counters? > > PC: Counter length is implementation dependent. The capabilities of > different platforms have significant hairpin as to make any recommendatio= n > irrelevant. > > =C2=B7 Also, the usual drawback of detailed statistics to charact= erize > a flow is scaling. Any consideration and recommendation on that? > > PC: There is no per-flow statistics. It is a counter per SRv6 SID. An SRv= 6 > SID is shared among different flows. No per-flow scaling is required. > > =C2=B7 And last. I didn't find any of these counters being discus= sed > in draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam. Perhaps you can help me with a > reference to the SRv6 document that uses them. > > PC: The counters are required by the controller. Its usage is out of the > scope of this document. > > GIM>> I think that if SRv6 OAM was part of the network programming draft, > then defining these counters, that are, in my understanding, an integral > part of SRv6 OAM, logical, in the right place. But since SRv6 OAM is > discussed in the draft of its own, I suggest considering moving Section 6= .1 > Counters to I-D.ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam. > > > > PC2: The counters are part of the architecture and in my opinion do not > belong to the OAM draft. The usage of the counters are beyond the OAM dra= ft. > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 10:23 AM Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) < > pcamaril@cisco.com> wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > > > Inline. > > > > Thank you, > > Pablo. > > > > *From: *Greg Mirsky > *Date: *Sunday, 12 January 2020 at 04:01 > *To: *=E2=80=9CPablo Camarillo (pcamaril)=E2=80=9D > *Cc: *=E2=80=9Cspring@ietf.org=E2=80=9D > *Subject: *Re: WGLC =E2=80=93 draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming > > > > Hi Pablo, > > thank you for your expedient response. Please find my new notes under > GIM>> tag below in-line. > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 1:09 PM Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) < > pcamaril@cisco.com> wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > > > Inline. > > > > Thanks, > > Pablo. > > > > *From: *Greg Mirsky > *Date: *Tuesday, 7 January 2020 at 21:01 > *To: *Bruno Decraene > *Cc: *SPRING WG List , =E2=80=9C6man@ietf.org=E2=80=9D <= 6man@ietf.org>, > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming < > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org> > *Subject: *Re: WGLC =E2=80=93 draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming > *Resent from: * > *Resent to: *, , , < > daniel.voyer@bell.ca>, , < > lizhenbin@huawei.com> > *Resent date: *Tuesday, 7 January 2020 at 21:01 > > > > Dear Authors, WG Chairs, et al., > > I hope I=E2=80=99m not too late with my comments and questions on the doc= ument. > Please kindly consider them as WG LC comments: > > =C2=B7 I have a question regarding the following pseudo-code: > > S08. Max_LE =3D (Hdr Ext Len / 2) =E2=80=93 1 > > S09. If ((Last Entry > max_LE) or (Segments Left > (Last Entry+1)) { > > S10. Send an ICMP Parameter Problem to the Source Address, > > Code 0 (Erroneous header field encountered), > > Pointer set to the Segments Left field. > > Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet. > > S11. } > > > > According to RFC 8200, Hdr Ext Len is the length of the extension header > in 8-octet units, not including the first 8 octets. Thus, as I understand= , > max_LE is the length in 8-octet units of half of the extension header les= s > one. On the other hand, Last Entry and Segments Left are indices. Hence m= y > question, What is being compared in line S09 ( Last Entry > max_LE)? Leng= th > and index? If the goal is to use Hdr Ext Len to calculate the number of > entries in the header, then what assumption is used in S08? Is it that th= e > entry=E2=80=99s length is always and only 128 bits, i.e. 16 octets? I bel= ieve that > using such an assumption is too narrowing and limiting to SRH. > > > > PC: This has already been discussed with Adrian. Please check this thread= : > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/IOA_4nlNPacD2v7Jue2dkGeOABk > > GIM>> Thank you for the reference. In some aspects, part of my statement > is repeating your answer to Adrain. The only length on an element in SRH > considered is 128 bits, the length of IPv6 address. I think that your > explanation of how you have arrived at th following formula > > S08. Max_LE =3D (Hdr Ext Len / 2) =E2=80=93 1 > > will benefit the document. > > My question to you and SPRING WG goes beyond this scenario. Considering > presented in Singapore Unified Identifier proposals ( > draft-mirsky-6man-unified-id-sr > and > draft-wmsaxw-6man-usid-id-use > ), > I believe other scenarios of using SRH, with elements of length other tha= n > 128 bits should be accommodated, e.g., 32 bits-long elements. > > i. > > > > PC: It is up to the draft-mirsky authors to standardize in their draft th= e > changes to the SRH processing. As per today the draft-mirsky proposal is > still an individual document. > > > > =C2=B7 Another question is to Section 6.3. What value do you see = in > this section? I've noticed that draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam is in the > Informational References section. I agree with that for the first sentenc= e > in the section. But I believe that the second sentence that refers to the > new O-bit and OAM behaviors defined in draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam > requires it to be moved into the Normative References section. Unless > you'll decide to remove the section altogether. > > PC: The O-bit and OAM behaviors described in > draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam are not required to understand or impleme= nt > the technology described in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming. > However, they are relevant as to provide additional information to the > reader. Why would it be a normative reference? > > GIM>> Ali and I are discussing several aspects of > draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam. For example, the O-bit is applicable to > any OAM operation or to some part of them. Note that OAM apparatus usuall= y > considered to include Fault Management and Performance Monitoring > protocols. Both may operate as proactive or on-demand. Is the O-bit > applicable to all OAM methods? Then, Fault Management OAM supports > Continuity Check, Connectivity Verification and, for some networks, > Automatic Protection Coordination. How O-bit is used in these methods? No= w, > to the Performance Monitoring OAM. I think that the O-bit can be only use= d > in dual-ended one-way PM OAM. How O-bit may be used in single-ended two-w= ay > PM OAM? Can the O-bit support the Loss Measurement? As you may see, there > are many questions to discuss and clarify in the document. I can imagine > that the result of our work on draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam may be > somewhat different from its current form. How to ensure synchronization > between SRv6 programming and OAM specifications? > > > > PC: The current reference in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming > does not explain particular mechanisms of draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam= . > It only says that draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam defines OAM mechanisms > for SRv6 as well as the O-bit. This is flexible enough as to be correct > regardless of the changes that you make during the WGLC to > draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam. > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 9:15 AM wrote: > > Hello SPRING, > > > > This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-sprin= g-srv6-network-programming [1]. > > > > Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent version, an= d send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later than December 20. > > > > You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not dupli= cating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which are only spri= ng specifics. > > > > If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically debated = on the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread for this point. > > This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this point and = that other points get forgotten (or that the thread get converted into para= llel independent discussions) > > > > Thank you, > > Bruno > > > > [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programmin= g-05 > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________= ________________________________________________ > > > > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confid= entielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc > > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez re= cu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler > > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages = electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, > > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme o= u falsifie. Merci. > > > > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged i= nformation that may be protected by law; > > they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. > > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and de= lete this message and its attachments. > > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have bee= n modified, changed or falsified. > > Thank you. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > --000000000000b95e32059e4f7c1a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Pablo,
thank you for considering my comments and ma= king the update. I think that it is up to others interested, in particular = in OAM of SRv6, to share their opinions regarding the relationship between = this draft and SRv6 OAM document that is in 6man WG. Maybe Chairs of SP= RING WG will reach out to 6man WG to consider the relationship between the = documents.
Regarding the counters being defined in the document. = I think that the primary use of counters is by OAM. Thus, I think it would = be appropriate to define and demonstrate the use of these counters in SRv6 = OAM specification.

Regards,
Greg

On= Fri, Feb 7, 2020 at 2:03 AM Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril@cisco.com> wrote:

Greg,

=C2=A0

We have published an updated re= vision of the draft that incorporates the change. See more inline PC2.

=C2=A0

Many thanks,

Pablo.

=C2=A0

From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com= >
Date: Monday, 27 January 2020 at 06:36
To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
Cc: "sprin= g@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

=C2=A0

Hi Pablo, <= /p>

thank you for your though= tful consideration of my comments. Please find my new notes in-line below t= agged GIM>>.

=C2=A0

Regards,

Greg

=C2=A0

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 1= 1:08 PM Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril@cisco.com> wrote:

Hi Greg,

=C2=A0

Inline.

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Pablo.

=C2=A0

From: Greg Mirsky <gregi= mirsky@gmail.com><= br> Date: Sunday, 19 January 2020 at 20:28
To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pc= amaril@cisco.com><= br> Cc: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

=C2=A0

Hi Pablo,

thank you for sharing your opinion. I understand that you believe=C2=A0that= draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam will not change and will be published with= defining the O-flag as=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 O-flag: OAM flag.=C2=A0 When set, it indicates that th= is packet is an
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 operations and management (OAM) packet.

I, on the other hand, am much less certain that that draft and SRv6 OAM, in= general, require the special flag in SRH. I believe that progressing the= =C2=A0draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming with the current text and = the informative reference increases the=C2=A0likelihood=C2=A0that an Errata must be filed one the SRv6 OAM draft is published.

=C2=A0

PC:

I believe that we can trim the text in section 6.3 to = avoid mentioning the O-bit without reducing the overall quality of the docu= ment.

<old>

=C2=A0=C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam] defines OAM behaviors = for SRv6.=C2=A0 This

=C2=A0=C2=A0 includes the definition of the SRH Flag 'O-bit', a= s well as

=C2=A0=C2=A0 additional SR Endpoint behaviors for OAM purposes.<= /p>

</old>

<new>

=C2=A0=C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam] defines OAM behaviors for = SRv6.=C2=A0 This

=C2=A0=C2=A0 includes the definition of additional SR Endpoint behaviors for O= AM purposes.

</new>

Do you agree with this change?

GIM>> I agree that = the new text is more clear and less dependent on the discussion of=C2=A0I-D= .ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam. Though the "OAM behaviors for SRv6" t= hat are introduced in the draft, i.e., "punt the packet" and "punt the packet with a timestamp", are being discussed and = may change as the result of the discussion by 6man WG. Hence I think that i= t be better to not to reference=C2=A0 =C2=A0I-D.ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam a= ltogether.

=C2=A0

PC2: I have updated the draft t= o remove the reference to O-bit as you agreed.

Regarding removing the full ref= erence to the OAM draft: I believe that the new text is generic enough as t= o be good regardless of the changes during the WG LC of the OAM draft. I be= lieve that the reference is useful for someone implementing it.

=C2=A0

And as we're discussing a sub-section in the Operation section, I'v= e got few questions on counters, hope you don't mind:

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 As this is part of the operational considerations, should there be a= ny recommendation on the length of the counters?

PC: Counter length is implementation dependent. The ca= pabilities of different platforms have significant hairpin as to make any r= ecommendation irrelevant.

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Also, the usual drawback of detailed statistics to characterize a fl= ow is scaling. Any consideration and recommendation on that?

PC: There is no per-flow statistics. It is a counter p= er SRv6 SID. An SRv6 SID is shared among different flows. No per-flow scali= ng is required.

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 And last. I didn't find any of these counters being discussed in= =C2=A0draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam. Perhaps you can help me with a refer= ence to the SRv6 document that uses them.

PC: The counters are required by the controller. Its u= sage is out of the scope of this document.

GIM>> I think that = if SRv6 OAM was part of the network programming draft, then defining these = counters, that are, in my understanding, an integral part of SRv6 OAM, logi= cal, in the right place. But since SRv6 OAM is discussed in the draft of its own, I suggest considering moving Sec= tion 6.1 Counters to I-D.ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam.

=C2=A0

PC2: The counters are part of t= he architecture and in my opinion do not belong to the OAM draft. The usage= of the counters are beyond the OAM draft.

Regards,

Greg

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 10:23 AM Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril@cisco.com> wro= te:

Hi Greg,

=C2=A0

Inline.

=C2=A0

Thank you,

Pablo.

=C2=A0

From: <= /b>Greg Mirsky &l= t;gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Sunday, 12 January 2020 at 04:01
To: =E2=80=9CPablo Camarillo (pcamaril)=E2=80=9D <pcamaril= @cisco.com>
Cc: =E2=80=9Cspring@ietf.org=E2=80=9D <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: WGLC =E2=80=93 draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming

=C2=A0

Hi Pablo,

thank you for your expedient response. Please find my = new notes under GIM>> tag below in-line.

=C2=A0

Regards,

Greg

=C2=A0

On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 1:09 PM Pablo Camarillo (pcama= ril) <pcamaril@cisco.com> wr= ote:

Hi Greg,

=C2=A0

Inline.

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Pablo.

=C2=A0

From: <= /b>Greg Mirsky &l= t;gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, 7 January 2020 at 21:01
To: Bruno Decraene <brun= o.decraene@orange.com>
Cc: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.or= g>, =E2=80=9C6man@ietf.org=E2=80=9D <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-prog= ramming@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: WGLC =E2=80=93 draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming
Resent from: <alias-= bounces@ietf.org>
Resent to: <cf@cisco.com>, <pcamaril@cisco.com>, <john@leddy.net>, <daniel.voyer@bell.ca>, <satoru.matsushima@g.= softbank.co.jp>, <lizhenbin@huawei.com<= /span>> Resent date: Tuesday, 7 January 2020 at 21:01

=C2=A0

Dear Authors, WG Chairs, et al.,

I hope I=E2=80=99m not too late with my comments and q= uestions on the document. Please kindly consider them as WG LC comments:

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I have a question regarding the following pseud= o-code:

=C2=A0 S08. =C2=A0 Max_LE =3D (Hdr Ext Len / 2) =E2=80= =93 1

=C2=A0 S09. =C2=A0 If ((Last Entry > max_LE) or (Se= gments Left > (Last Entry+1)) {

=C2=A0 S10. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Send an ICMP Parameter= Problem to the Source Address,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0Code 0 (Erroneous header field encountered),

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0Pointer set to the Segments Left field.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet.

=C2=A0 S11. =C2=A0 }

=C2=A0

According to RFC 8200, Hdr Ext Len is the length of th= e extension header in 8-octet units, not including the first 8 octets. Thus= , as I understand, max_LE is the length in 8-octet units of half of the ext= ension header less one. On the other hand, Last Entry and Segments Left are indices. Hence my question, What is= being compared in line S09 ( Last Entry > max_LE)? Length and index? If= the goal is to use Hdr Ext Len to calculate the number of entries in the h= eader, then what assumption is used in S08? Is it that the entry=E2=80=99s length is always and only 128 bits,= i.e. 16 octets? I believe that using such an assumption is too narrowing a= nd limiting to SRH.

=C2=A0

PC: This has already been discussed with Adrian. Pleas= e check this thread: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/I= OA_4nlNPacD2v7Jue2dkGeOABk

GIM>> Thank you for the reference. In some aspec= ts, part of my statement is repeating your answer to Adrain. The only lengt= h on an element in SRH considered is 128 bits, the length of IPv6 address. = I think that your explanation of how you have arrived at th following formula

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 S08. =C2=A0 Max_LE =3D (Hdr Ext Len / 2)= =E2=80=93 1=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0will benefit the document.=C2=A0

My question to you and SPRING WG goes beyond this scen= ario. Considering presented in Singapore Unified Identifier proposals (draft-mirsky-6man-unified-id-s= r=C2=A0and=C2=A0draft-wmsaxw-6man-usid-id-use), I believe other scenarios of using SRH, with elements of length other than= 128 bits should be accommodated, e.g., 32 bits-long elements.

i.

=C2=A0

PC: It is up to the draft-mirsky authors to standardiz= e in their draft the changes to the SRH processing. As per today the draft-= mirsky proposal is still an individual document.

=C2=A0

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Another question is to Section 6.3. What value = do you see in this section? I've noticed that draft-ietf-6man-spring-sr= v6-oam is in the Informational References section. I agree with that for th= e first sentence in the section. But I believe that the second sentence that refers to the new O-bit and OAM beha= viors defined in=C2=A0 draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam requires it to be mo= ved into the Normative References section. Unless you'll decide to remo= ve the section altogether.

PC: The O-bit and OAM behaviors described in draft-iet= f-6man-spring-srv6-oam are not required to understand or implement the tech= nology described in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming. However, th= ey are relevant as to provide additional information to the reader. Why would it be a normative reference?

GIM>> Ali and I are discussing several aspects o= f draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam. For example, the O-bit is applicable to = any OAM operation or to some part of them. Note that OAM apparatus usually = considered to include Fault Management and Performance Monitoring protocols. Both may operate as proactive or on-dema= nd. Is the O-bit applicable to all OAM methods? Then, Fault Management OAM = supports Continuity Check, Connectivity Verification and, for some networks= , Automatic Protection Coordination. How O-bit is used in these methods? Now, to the Performance Monitoring OAM= . I think that the O-bit can be only used in dual-ended one-way PM OAM. How= O-bit may be used in single-ended two-way PM OAM? Can the O-bit support th= e Loss Measurement? As you may see, there are many questions to discuss and clarify in the document. I can ima= gine that the result of our work on draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam may be = somewhat different from its current form. How to ensure synchronization bet= ween SRv6 programming and OAM specifications?

=C2=A0

PC: The current reference in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-ne= twork-programming does not explain particular mechanisms of draft-ietf-6man= -spring-srv6-oam. It only says that draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam defines= OAM mechanisms for SRv6 as well as the O-bit. This is flexible enough as to be correct regardless of the chan= ges that you make during the WGLC to draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam.

=C2=A0

Regards,

Greg

=C2=A0

On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 9:15 AM <bru= no.decraene@orange.com> wrote: 

Hello SPRING,<=
/pre>

=C2=A0


This email starts a t=
wo weeks Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programm=
ing [1].


=C2=A0


Please read this docu=
ment if you haven't read the most recent version, and send your comment=
s to the SPRING WG list, no later than December 20.


=C2=A0


You may copy the 6MAN=
 WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not duplicating emails on the 6M=
AN mailing list for the comments which are only spring specifics.

=C2=A0


If you are raising a =
point which you expect will be specifically debated on the mailing list, co=
nsider using a specific email/thread for this point.


This may help avoidin=
g that the thread become specific to this point and that other points get f=
orgotten (or that the thread get converted into parallel independent discus=
sions)


=C2=A0


Thank you,

Bruno


=C2=A0


[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-i=
etf-spring-srv6-network-programming-05


=C2=A0



=C2=A0


________________________=
___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________
=C2=A0
Ce message et ses pieces=
 jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees =
et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, explo=
ites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, =
veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le=
 detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant su=
sceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute res=
ponsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<=
/pre>

=C2=A0


This message and its att=
achments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be pro=
tected by law;


they should not be distr=
ibuted, used or copied without authorisation.


If you have received thi=
s email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its =
attachments.


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, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or fal=
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--000000000000b95e32059e4f7c1a-- From nobody Tue Feb 18 01:46:15 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE38912012D for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 01:46:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mp9X77DgPhiB for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 01:46:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x32f.google.com (mail-ot1-x32f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A4D20120129 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 01:46:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x32f.google.com with SMTP id j16so18944951otl.1 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 01:46:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=rQTtxNUZCMf32gIlYmec3W8Lo+nhSzRSKegA6Y0MbTY=; b=IkOgUPbBjEfT0wUQsF/9CLU6ojKfQrtQwc+cKnxM+k4F/ZxYEgjtQGafS3D6G3ugiv VkpUaMFHzBlMaM6BSX/xynYCvb732io5zIriF4/OOiEZUCP3KVKrAdB6X44brASpm/EX 0n+mQ3qAt1IfgttCn2gWIBYUy4ws8jzmricuZDxnuU6aOy+jRsXhsJ31KFxa2jhCN5Za ZdzcXsG2veT3YMq9KZ8ipYVP9qmkWmB2gzgQKwOspa1DQTMArnAgtpRKn4AKnZs/qu8S ceTPV/fB61oSB3d29nRZTT3TouoKywRieP1SptdeKnB9q2X+KoaS7EcnEXR5Y13JtV4G CHpg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=rQTtxNUZCMf32gIlYmec3W8Lo+nhSzRSKegA6Y0MbTY=; b=bvdNUBeZ+B3pfJfeAusubkUjpcomnp/c8Odx/VLJ19sUmFliqmIUXjdx0+DBhA2a/n G5IXDYkPJE908/XqSFMUJFlnTYzWg7htvzVc2Lwnm4AXwN44eXKgjfYVdwf7Dx3FhNOq F2ppm1pTMjire32ml51Iu8nxF2fq8XH3kn5Ay9haB28IAHjJGaaxp4b6V7tPlxy8HeQo XBHkfEL4usCVWjAFkzE/Z1tZbA2wlNqBGtu6aIu0crw2AoOM1ujJ/JNyxuyZHNnYNv7a HeCxrkhaqE4ZhD1Lx1r0wvo3e1R+/9Qe8X98+XBz/2XpL6va9eoF3le37qNESmOAhWxy Xn/w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWPRJqkbUqoFadwZSVzJc6X5IDYMfa0AhdoTwssJL20qdNPNO+R YwNDXdKWUrXsCvoMiC+SNfKGMgBaGO5NbId0ZdZHrhQuPms= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyRCx5UCXjTOLhxdR7OokuO6favvVxhkWYnSCKA6p8Xu/5vtN636UQI0zYlCKjXi2/Jg6sIe5g+EHQ/fbVQ6rM= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:6a06:: with SMTP id g6mr13989229otn.305.1582019169867; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 01:46:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <158201848456.14101.16035956666195497310@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <158201848456.14101.16035956666195497310@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 10:45:59 +0100 Message-ID: To: "idr@ietf. org" , SPRING WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a5eb53059ed68af2" Archived-At: Subject: [spring] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-zhou-idr-inter-domain-lcu-01.txt X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 09:46:14 -0000 --000000000000a5eb53059ed68af2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear Authors of "Inter-domain Network Slicing via BGP-LU" draft, Can you kindly elaborate why your ultimate goal can not be accomplished using SR-MPLS and flexible algorithm ? Is having N solutions to the same problem a good thing ? See writing a draft is easy, publishing it as RFC a bit harder but doable, but the real challenge is to support it in all products as well as struggle with interoperability issues between completely disjointed solutions. As to your proposal why is this a standards track vs information ? AFAIK you are not defining any BGP extension - just using add-paths and community. How receiver interprets the community is a local matter. Many thx, R. ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Date: Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 10:35 AM Subject: I-D Action: draft-zhou-idr-inter-domain-lcu-01.txt To: A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : Inter-domain Network Slicing via BGP-LU Authors : Jin Zhou Chunning Dai Shaofu Peng Filename : draft-zhou-idr-inter-domain-lcu-01.txt Pages : 7 Date : 2020-02-18 Abstract: This document aims to solve inter-domain network slicing problems using existing technologies. It attempts to establish multiple BGP- LU LSPs of different colors for a prefix to stitch multiple network segments. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-zhou-idr-inter-domain-lcu/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhou-idr-inter-domain-lcu-01 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-zhou-idr-inter-domain-lcu-01 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-zhou-idr-inter-domain-lcu-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt --000000000000a5eb53059ed68af2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Authors of=C2=A0=C2=A0"Inter-domain Network Slic= ing via BGP-LU" draft,

Can you kindly elaborate why= your ultimate goal can not be accomplished=C2=A0using SR-MPLS and flexible= algorithm ?=C2=A0

Is having N solutions to the sa= me problem a good thing ? See writing a draft is easy, publishing it as RFC= a bit harder but doable, but the real challenge=C2=A0is to support it in a= ll products as well as struggle with interoperability issues between comple= tely=C2=A0disjointed solutions.=C2=A0

As to your p= roposal why is this a standards track vs information ? AFAIK you are not de= fining any BGP extension - just using add-paths and community. How receiver= interprets the community is a local=C2=A0matter.=C2=A0

Many thx,
R.

---------- Forwarded message --= -------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, Feb 18, 2020= at 10:35 AM
Subject: I-D Action: draft-zhou-idr-inter-domain-lcu-01.txt=
To: <i-d-announce@ietf.org= >



A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies.


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:= Inter-domain Network Slicing via BGP-LU
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Authors=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: Jin = Zhou
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Chunning Dai
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Shaofu Peng
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-zho= u-idr-inter-domain-lcu-01.txt
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:= 7
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 := 2020-02-18

Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document aims to solve inter-domain network slicing probl= ems
=C2=A0 =C2=A0using existing technologies.=C2=A0 It attempts to establish mu= ltiple BGP-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0LU LSPs of different colors for a prefix to stitch multiple ne= twork
=C2=A0 =C2=A0segments.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dr= aft-zhou-idr-inter-domain-lcu/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-zhou= -idr-inter-domain-lcu-01
https://datatracker.ietf.org= /doc/html/draft-zhou-idr-inter-domain-lcu-01

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?u= rl2=3Ddraft-zhou-idr-inter-domain-lcu-01


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

_______________________________________________
I-D-Announce mailing list
I-D-Announce@iet= f.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce=
Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
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PAoYMPZJggcovC+LREmcREqsREu8REzMRE3cRE7sRE/8RFAMRVEcRfYJCAA7 --=====_002_next=====-- --=====_001_next=====-- From nobody Thu Feb 20 08:53:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E86F4120957; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 08:53:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bvMdbMzQ9ppU; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 08:53:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by 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[spring] FW: New Version Notification for draft-cl-spring-generalized-srv6-np-00.txt X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 16:53:42 -0000 SGkgRm9sa3MsDQpXZSBwcm9wb3NlZCBmb2xsb3dpbmcgdHdvIGRyYWZ0cy4gVGhleSBhcmUgdG8g cHJvcG9zZSB0aGUgdW5pZmllZCBtZWNoYW5pc20gYmFzZWQgb24gR2VuZXJhbGl6ZSBTUnY2IFNJ RCANCndoaWNoIGNhbiBlbmNhcHN1bGF0ZSBDb21wcmVzc2VkIFNSdjYgU0lELCBNUExTIExhYmVs IGFuZCBJUHY0IHR1bm5lbCBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiB0byBjb3BlIHdpdGggdGhlIA0KZW1lcmdpbmcg bmV3IHJlcXVpcmVtZW50cyBvZiBTUnY2IGluY2x1ZGluZyBTUnY2IGNvbXByZXNzaW9uLCBjcm9z c2luZyBTUi1NUExTIGRvbWFpbnMgYW5kIGNyb3NzaW5nIA0KSVB2NCBkb21haW5zLiBBdCB0aGUg c2FtZSB0aW1lIHRoZSBtZWNoYW5pc21zIGtlZXAgdGhlIGNvbXBhdGliaWxpdHkgb2YgdGhlIGV4 aXN0aW5nIFNSdjYgTmV0d29yayBQcm9ncmFtIA0KbWVjaGFuaXNtcyBhbmQgY29tcGx5IHdpdGgg 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port 10024) with ESMTP id 9U_Zps5JX5Rq; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 09:10:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A6D3612099D; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 09:10:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from LHREML714-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id DCD44B95EB60162EADFA; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 17:10:04 +0000 (GMT) Received: from lhreml736-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.87) by LHREML714-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.37) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 17:10:04 +0000 Received: from lhreml736-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.87) by lhreml736-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.87) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1713.5; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 17:10:04 +0000 Received: from DGGEMM422-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.198.39) by lhreml736-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.87) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA) id 15.1.1713.5 via Frontend Transport; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 17:10:04 +0000 Received: from DGGEMM532-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.192]) by dggemm422-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.198.39]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Fri, 21 Feb 2020 01:09:55 +0800 From: Lizhenbin To: "spring@ietf.org" , "ipv6@ietf.org" CC: Daniel Voyer , Kihoon LEE , Cong Li , Feng Zhao , "Pengshuping (Peng Shuping)" , Chongfeng Xie , Hui Tian , "James N Guichard" , "Chengli (Cheng Li)" Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-li-spring-compressed-srv6-np-01.txt Thread-Index: AQHV0cimFbyY9isRVU6qDLGDsZGMx6gkeTYP Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 17:09:55 +0000 Message-ID: <5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D9363ADEA@DGGEMM532-MBX.china.huawei.com> References: <157976876590.22852.5211299057178419674.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: xqTJFJG3TsNfQYtFViWf+22wxBBmKuEpnTVy3rq3LG67wsqedb3GBaw0Iff7gYd2ISWIC9w5PbDjRmfaWKdMeQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MWHPR11MB1871 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.13, xch-rcd-003.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] 6man w.g. last call for X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2020 15:02:46 -0000 --_000_MWHPR11MB1374E352AED409CB8A6FD4C1C9EE0MWHPR11MB1374namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greg, Zafar, Thank you. We will update this in the next revision of Network Programming. Thanks, Pablo. ________________________________ De: Zafar Ali (zali) Enviado: s=E1bado, 22 de febrero de 2020 2:07 Para: Greg Mirsky; Ole Troan Cc: SPRING WG; 6man WG; 6man Chairs; Zafar Ali (zali); draft-ietf-spring-sr= v6-network-programming Asunto: Re: [spring] 6man w.g. last call for Hi Greg, I went back to your comments to verify the latest version in the GitHub add= resses them (as marked by [ZA]). This is with the exception of your question on handling of BFD control pack= ets or STAMP test packets. Please see [ZA2] for the specifics. One thing that stands out from your review comments is that we need a sub-s= ection on the illustration on the use of O-bit. We are in the process of ad= ding the O-bit usage illustration. Please see [ZA2] for more details. Many thanks for taking an offline call, earlier. I will reach-out to you ag= ain to discuss your comments. Thanks Regards =85 Zafar .... * In Section 4.1.2 the identification of an OAM (active OAM or some oth= er kind of OAM) packet defined as: The OAM packets are identified either by setting the O-flag in SRH or by inserting the END.OP/ END.OTP SIDs at an appropriate place in the SRH. Is the use of any of these methods required for any OAM? If that is the cas= e, then the normative language must be used. Also, is it required to use an= y of these methods for, for example, BFD control packets or STAMP test pack= ets? Isn't using assigned by IANA port number sufficient to identify active= IP OAM packets? Wouldn't the same be applicable in SRv6 OAM? [ZA2] You are right that IANA assigned port number should be sufficient to = identify active OAM packets. In order to process the OAM packets targeted t= o a SID, based on a local configuration, the net-pgm needs to allow process= ing of the OAM packets. What we need is a clarification in the net-pgm draf= t for the Upper Layer Processing. I=92ve added NET-PGM editors (Spring is a= lready CC=92ed) to request this change. .... --_000_MWHPR11MB1374E352AED409CB8A6FD4C1C9EE0MWHPR11MB1374namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greg, Zafar,

Thank you. We will update this in the next revision of Network Programming.=

Thanks,
Pablo.

De: Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@ci= sco.com>
Enviado: s=E1bado, 22 de febrero de 2020 2:07
Para: Greg Mirsky; Ole Troan
Cc: SPRING WG; 6man WG; 6man Chairs; Zafar Ali (zali); dra= ft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
Asunto: Re: [spring] 6man w.g. last call for

Hi Greg,

 

I went back to your comments to verify the latest ve= rsion in the GitHub addresses them (as marked by [ZA]).

This is with the exception of your question on handl= ing of BFD control packets or STAMP test packets. Please see [ZA2] for the = specifics.

 

One thing that stands out from your review comments = is that we need a sub-section on the illustration on the use of O-bit. We a= re in the process of adding the O-bit usage illustration. Please see [ZA2] = for more details.

 

Many thanks for taking an offline call, earlier. I w= ill reach-out to you again to discuss your comments.

 

Thanks

 

Regards =85 Zafar


 ....

  • In Section 4.1.2 the identification of a= n OAM (active OAM or some other kind of OAM) packet defined as:

   The OAM packets are identified either b= y setting the O-flag in SRH or

   by inserting the END.OP/ END.OTP SIDs a= t an appropriate place in the

   SRH.

Is the use of any of these methods required for any = OAM? If that is the case, then the normative language must be used. Also, i= s it required to use any of these methods for, for example, BFD control pac= kets or STAMP test packets? Isn't using assigned by IANA port number sufficient to identify active IP OAM pa= ckets? Wouldn't the same be applicable in SRv6 OAM?

 

[ZA2] You are right that IANA assigned port number s= hould be sufficient to identify active OAM packets. In order to process the= OAM packets targeted to a SID, based on a local configuration, the net-pgm= needs to allow processing of the OAM packets. What we need is a clarification in the net-pgm draft for the = Upper Layer Processing. I=92ve added NET-PGM editors (Spring is already CC= =92ed) to request this change.

 

....

--_000_MWHPR11MB1374E352AED409CB8A6FD4C1C9EE0MWHPR11MB1374namp_-- From nobody Sat Feb 22 20:14:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 936373A0C3F; Sat, 22 Feb 2020 20:14:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DfC4aS6yn9HP; Sat, 22 Feb 2020 20:14:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x12a.google.com (mail-lf1-x12a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 45EE13A0C3D; Sat, 22 Feb 2020 20:14:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x12a.google.com with SMTP id f24so4403758lfh.3; Sat, 22 Feb 2020 20:14:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=asQCtRZ9helsYTvrH01V/KU4JPbHQjAE3I9cMLA+Skc=; b=V28xLnqdaqDSRMqn+iRta2Z9S5zCHXmaGHXs4VoQ/r54BHdVy84dn7U97xqR1Xj88z DzCZdVDh0dBxD0r+/ZNXJXbNxuW8/I4gyW0LphgXKn7gRN0g6Hyt5vcCMxtMH+pzHRuO QwNTHp1wokKupQJK5I8HbPjO8WkcFPWwmGXNSN2RwAwbp6ft+a0SYKrPAlWCEsQrvUpN V4Hrd82xAgY0bZrHK5h/wHFLdEixi9YKMtD86lHzcCpjnuGzsNmvT77zevfi+zUPxBTr SxOeRB1Aq6hwnGPiKFfW3NqKKJcVfBe5UZvBR7Ufeq6BDc3jHTf/kCpVfttpAWzABgFJ S/Ig== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=asQCtRZ9helsYTvrH01V/KU4JPbHQjAE3I9cMLA+Skc=; b=Uxh3SAry+yVJntseFvRS+YmfYFf71FHjxMvlyvVI7DG9zh8Ekm0w7M1lp4UTU5jjk4 EwWEMLzTh1V9mfsQm0Ws/BnooSjw2qNzOdEu+u7AsrTzvtVxhmsbOppZPT1Stu/VXjNH cr9wqm0IKX9lfhtFOV2Hazatqcv/qjaNa/M/cuwMQL5if7+7X2I7xNaLhGRrQRToLVRs vHnHNzCXf3oRBeGBEzTyB+mgQfZOdurfkaj8rGjrad5f2eaIbge9CEUVST6f3UeH2MYW kdcZXC5a/AMG9cFnMSwcnJMKIqbWkaE5d8es/CZ/mBknn8s/LDFtfjyqI84wwnDpvbfc sBmQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX6q/vJoEDy7lqr32mKhXLHp4QNOvzFWe2NxOC2Be2a1SqJY6Vy kA/oWV85ztxx32sfgaypE8Viu16lo1rkesYVRAk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwrvZu4L2jtT0YxmXUv8c1OjwPxaNOq09Cjxs4zpS8y4KKQLg1C5WRPLmg4Qse7nRIeN+XRxCx0fYDFn+wudMU= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:58f1:: with SMTP id v17mr730554lfo.52.1582431247159; Sat, 22 Feb 2020 20:14:07 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <613EC60C-C81D-4CF1-9CBF-4135571CCDF6@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <613EC60C-C81D-4CF1-9CBF-4135571CCDF6@cisco.com> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2020 20:13:56 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" Cc: Ole Troan , SPRING WG , 6man WG , 6man Chairs <6man-chairs@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005e54d5059f367c75" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] 6man w.g. last call for X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2020 04:14:17 -0000 --0000000000005e54d5059f367c75 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Zafar, thank you for the update. I appreciate the efforts of all authors addressing my comments. I'll carefully read and review the new version and will share my comments as soon as possible. Regards, Greg On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 5:07 PM Zafar Ali (zali) wrote: > Hi Greg, > > > > I went back to your comments to verify the latest version in the GitHub > addresses them (as marked by [ZA]). > > This is with the exception of your question on handling of BFD control > packets or STAMP test packets. Please see [ZA2] for the specifics. > > > > One thing that stands out from your review comments is that we need a > sub-section on the illustration on the use of O-bit. We are in the proces= s > of adding the O-bit usage illustration. Please see [ZA2] for more details= . > > > > Many thanks for taking an offline call, earlier. I will reach-out to you > again to discuss your comments. > > > > Thanks > > > > Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar > > > > *From: *"Zafar Ali (zali)" > *Date: *Wednesday, December 18, 2019 at 7:19 PM > *To: *Greg Mirsky , Ole Troan > > *Cc: *SPRING WG , 6man WG , 6man Chairs < > 6man-chairs@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" > *Subject: *Re: [spring] 6man w.g. last call for > > > > > Hi Greg, > > > > Many thanks for your detailed comments. Much appreciated. > > > > Please see comments in-line and how the new version addresses your > comments. > > I also look forward to our offline discussion on Friday. > > > > Please note we have been also maintaining the latest version of the draft > in the 6man-Github. > > > > Thanks > > > > Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar > > > > *From: *spring on behalf of Greg Mirsky < > gregimirsky@gmail.com> > *Date: *Thursday, December 5, 2019 at 5:22 PM > *To: *Ole Troan > *Cc: *SPRING WG , 6man WG , 6man Chairs < > 6man-chairs@ietf.org> > *Subject: *Re: [spring] 6man w.g. last call for > > > > > Dear Authors, et al., > > please find my comments, as WG LC comments, questions to this document > below. > > - The Abstract and Introduction describe the document as "defines > building blocks for Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) = in > Segment Routing Networks with IPv6 Dataplane (SRv6)". I believe it wou= ld be > helpful to demonstrate that the existing mechanisms used in IPv6 to > demultiplex and realize OAM functions, e.g., using the well-known > destination UDP port number, are not sufficient and require the > introduction of new methods, e.g., O bit in SRH. > > [ZA2] We are adding illustration on the use of the o-bit. > > [ZA] If you look at section 4 of the draft, it explains how existing > probing mechanisms are used and why extensions are needed. In the new > revision posted, we have added additional information on why the O-bit in > SRH is defined (for telemetry purpose). Please have a look at the latest > revision as we have tried to address your comment. > > - This document introduces the O-flag into SRH as the building block > for OAM in SR networks with IPv6 data plane. It appears that the funct= ions > that are realized using the O-flag are already supported by the existi= ng > OAM protocols that enable fault management (e.g., variations of Echo > Request/Reply, BFD) and performance monitoring (e.g., STAMP). > > [ZA2] We are adding illustration on the use of the o-bit. > > [ZA] The O-bit is for telemetry use. In the new revision posted, we have > added additional normative text on O-bit processing to clarify this point= . > Please have a look at the latest revision. > > - Also, the use of the new "building block for OAM" in SRv6 splits the > SR OAM suit into two functionally separate toolsets - one for SR-MPLS = and > another for SRv6. > > [ZA] SRv6 uses IPv6 data plane and hence applicability of the IPv6 OAM > tools is discussed. > > - The document defines the support of O-flag as OPTIONAL. In that > case, what is the benefit of advertising the support of O-flag by an S= R > node (even though the advertisement itself is optional)? > > [ZA] To let the other nodes/ controller know if the O-bit is supported by > a local node. > > - The document uses the term "accurate timestamp" without the > discussion or definition of what level of accuracy is required or expe= cted, > methods to acquire an accurate timestamp, format(s) that must or may b= e > used to record a timestamp, and what are possible implications of not > providing an accurate timestamp. > > [ZA] We have addressed this comment by replacing =E2=80=9Caccurate=E2=80= =9D with =E2=80=9Ca=E2=80=9D. It > is really up to the local implementation and draft does not add any > requirements. > > - The document asserts that to support "Many scenarios require punting > of SRv6 OAM packets at the desired nodes in the network" can be done o= nly > with using OAM Endpoint with Punt function. I believe that TTL/Hop Cou= nt > Expired had been used successfully to achieve the same result. > > [ZA] Yes, and tracerouting is done using TTL/ HC. Please see section 4. > > - what is the apparent need to introduce functional duplication to > already existing OAM technique? How a packet would be processed if bo= th > O-flag and the OAM SID End.OP are present (the specification only > recommends setting O-flag to 0 when End.OP SID is present)? > > [ZA] Good point. The restriction really does not exist and the new > version corrects the text. > > - Section 3.4 introduces function OAM Endpoint with Timestamp and > Punt. At the same time, processing the O-flag, defined, as: > > a. Make a copy of the packet. > b. Send the copied packet, along with an accurate timestamp > > Is the difference in making or not making a local copy significant enough > to have two mechanisms to achieve essentially the same result? How a pack= et > will be processed if both O-flag and the OAM SID End.OTP are present (the > specification only recommends to set O-flag to 0 when END.OTP SID is > present) ? > > > > [ZA] Good point. The restriction really does not exist and the new > version corrects the text. > > > - Section 3.5 states that: > > SRH TLV plays an important role in carrying OAM and Performance > > Management (PM) metadata. > > I cannot find any other text that illustrates how SRH TLV plays any role > in FM and/or PM OAM. > > > > [ZA] Indeed, the current draft does not define any TLV for OAM purposes. > The section was added as future drafts may define OAM TLVs. > > However, based on your comments, the section has been removed in the new > revision. > > > - It is stated in Section 4: > > This section describes how OAM mechanisms can be implemented using > the OAM building blocks described in the previous section. > > As this is the Standard document, using the normative language would be > very much desirable. Then it would be clearer whether the use of not only > O-flag but of OAM SIDs as well is optional or mandatory. > > > > [ZA] Based on your comment, modified the text in the document to add > normative language. Specifically: > > o In the new revision, we have added normative text at the beginning > of 3.1.1 where O-bit is defined. > > o Sections 3.3 and 3.4 adds normative texts for OAM SIDs. > > o 4.1.2 and 4.2.2 further adds additional normative text for Ping and > traceroute use-cases, respectively. > > > > > - I've noticed that functions used as an example in the document are > all part of active OAM functions. At the same time, the defined proces= sing > of the O-flag is very much similar to the operation of in-situ OAM. Bu= t I > don't find any reference to in-situ OAM mechanism, nor discussion of > whether both can be used in combination or are mutually exclusive. > > [ZA] Based on your comment, we have removed the relevant section. > > - In Section 4.1.2 the identification of an OAM (active OAM or some > other kind of OAM) packet defined as: > > The OAM packets are identified either by setting the O-flag in SRH or > > by inserting the END.OP/ END.OTP SIDs at an appropriate place in the > > SRH. > > Is the use of any of these methods required for any OAM? If that is the > case, then the normative language must be used. Also, is it required to u= se > any of these methods for, for example, BFD control packets or STAMP test > packets? Isn't using assigned by IANA port number sufficient to identify > active IP OAM packets? Wouldn't the same be applicable in SRv6 OAM? > > > > [ZA2] You are right that IANA assigned port number should be sufficient t= o > identify active OAM packets. In order to process the OAM packets targeted > to a SID, based on a local configuration, the net-pgm needs to allow > processing of the OAM packets. What we need is a clarification in the > net-pgm draft for the Upper Layer Processing. I=E2=80=99ve added NET-PGM = editors > (Spring is already CC=E2=80=99ed) to request this change. > > > > [ZA] Normative language has been added to address your comment. 4.1.2 and > 4.2.2 further adds additional normative text for Ping and traceroute > use-cases, respectively. > > > - I have a question on how a local node selects an application that is > to receive a punted packet (whether marked by O-flag that includes one= of > OAM SIDs)? The document provides examples where the destination is eit= her > ICMPv6 or a traceroute (?) process. Is that an exhaustive list? > > [ZA] The list is not exhaustive. Furthermore, O-bit is for telemetry use. > > > > I greatly appreciate your kind consideration and am looking forward to th= e > productive discussion. > > > > [ZA] Likewise, many thanks for your comments. > > > > Thanks > > > > Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 3:53 PM Ole Troan > wrote: > > Hello, > > As agreed in the working group session in Singapore, this message start= s > a new two week 6MAN Working Group Last Call on advancing: > > Title : Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) in Segment > Routing Networks with IPv6 Data plane (SRv6) > Author : Z. Ali, C. Filsfils, S. Matsushima, D. Voyer, M.. Chen > Filename : draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam-02 > Pages : 23 > Date : 2019-11-20 > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam/ > > as a Proposed Standard. > > Substantive comments and statements of support for publishing this > document should be directed to the mailing list. > Editorial suggestions can be sent to the author. This last call will end > on the 18th of December 2019. > > To improve document quality and ensure that bugs are caught as early as > possible, we would require at least > two reviewers to do a complete review of the document. Please let the > chairs know if you are willing to be a reviewer. > > The last call will be forwarded to the spring working group, with > discussion directed to the ipv6 list. > > Thanks, > Bob & Ole, 6man co-chairs > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > --0000000000005e54d5059f367c75 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Zafar,
thank you for the update. I appreciate the e= fforts of all authors addressing my comments. I'll carefully read and r= eview the new version=C2=A0and will share my comments as soon=C2=A0as possi= ble.

Regards,
Greg

On Fri, Feb 21, = 2020 at 5:07 PM Zafar Ali (zali) <zali= @cisco.com> wrote:

Hi Greg,

=C2=A0

I went back to your comments to verify the latest ve= rsion in the GitHub addresses them (as marked by [ZA]).

This is with the exception of your question on handl= ing of BFD control packets or STAMP test packets. Please see [ZA2] for the = specifics.

=C2=A0

One thing that stands out from your review comments = is that we need a sub-section on the illustration on the use of O-bit. We a= re in the process of adding the O-bit usage illustration. Please see [ZA2] = for more details.

=C2=A0

Many thanks for taking an offline call, earlier. I w= ill reach-out to you again to discuss your comments.

=C2=A0

Thanks

=C2=A0

Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar

=C2=A0

From: = "Zafar Ali (zali= )" <zali@cisco.= com>
Date: Wednesday, December 18, 2019 at 7:19 PM
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>, 6man Chairs <6man-chairs@ietf.org>, "Z= afar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-sp= ring-srv6-oam>

=C2=A0

Hi Greg,

=C2=A0

Many thanks for your detailed comments. Much appreci= ated.

=C2=A0

Please see comments in-line and how the new version = addresses your comments. =C2=A0

I also look forward to o= ur offline discussion on Friday.

=C2=A0<= /u>

Please note we have been= also maintaining the latest version of the draft in the 6man-Github.

=C2=A0<= /u>

Thanks

=C2=A0

Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar

=C2=A0

From: = spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org<= /a>> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Thursday, December 5, 2019 at 5:22 PM
To: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>, 6man Chairs <6man-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-sp= ring-srv6-oam>

=C2=A0

Dear Authors, et al.,

please find my comments, as WG LC comments, question= s to this document below.

  • The Abstract and Introduction describe the document as "defines buildi= ng blocks for Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) in Segment = Routing Networks with IPv6 Dataplane (SRv6)". I believe it would be he= lpful to demonstrate that the existing mechanisms used in IPv6 to demultiplex and realize OAM functions, e.g., using the wel= l-known destination UDP port number, are not sufficient and require the int= roduction of new methods, e.g., O bit in SRH.

[ZA2] We are adding illustration on the use of the o= -bit.

[ZA] If you look at section 4 of the draft, it expla= ins how existing probing mechanisms are used and why extensions are needed.= In the new revision posted, we have added additional information on why the O-bit in SRH is defined (for telemetry purpose). Pl= ease have a look at the latest revision as we have tried to address your co= mment.

  • This document introduces the O-flag into SRH as the building block for OAM = in SR networks with IPv6 data plane. It appears that the functions that are= realized using the O-flag are already supported by the existing OAM protoc= ols that enable fault management (e.g., variations of Echo Request/Reply, BFD) and performance monitoring (= e.g., STAMP).

[ZA2] We are adding illustration on the use of the o= -bit.

[ZA] The O-bit is for telemetry use. In the new revi= sion posted, we have added additional normative text on O-bit processing to= clarify this point.=C2=A0 Please have a look at the latest revision.

  • Also, the use of the new "building block for OAM" in SRv6 splits = the SR OAM suit into two functionally separate toolsets - one for SR-MPLS a= nd another for SRv6.

[ZA] SRv6 uses IPv6 data plane and hence applicabili= ty of the IPv6 OAM tools is discussed.

  • The document defines the support of O-flag as OPTIONAL. In that case, what = is the benefit of advertising the support of O-flag by an SR node (even tho= ugh the advertisement itself is optional)?

[ZA] To let the other nodes/ controller know if the = O-bit is supported by a local node.

  • The document uses the term "accurate timestamp" without the discu= ssion or definition of what level of accuracy is required or expected, meth= ods to acquire an accurate timestamp, format(s) that must or may be used to= record a timestamp, and what are possible implications of not providing an accurate timestamp.

    • [ZA] We have addressed this comment by replacing =E2= =80=9Caccurate=E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9Ca=E2=80=9D. It is really up to the lo= cal implementation and draft does not add any requirements.

    • The document asserts that to support "Many scenarios require punting o= f SRv6 OAM packets at the desired nodes in the network" can be done on= ly with using=C2=A0OAM Endpoint with Punt function. I believe that TTL/Hop = Count Expired had been used successfully to achieve the same result.

    [ZA] Yes, and tracerouting is done using TTL/ HC. Pl= ease see section 4.

    • what is the apparent need to introduce functional duplication to already ex= isting OAM technique?=C2=A0 How a packet would be processed if both O-flag = and the OAM SID End.OP are present (the specification only recommends setti= ng O-flag to 0 when End.OP SID is present)?

    [ZA] Good point. The res= triction really does not exist and the new version corrects the text.

    • Section 3.4 introduces function=C2=A0OAM Endpoint with Timestamp and Punt. = At the same time, processing the O-flag, defined, as:

      • =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 a. Make a = copy of the packet.
      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 b. Send the copied packet, along = with an accurate timestamp

Is the difference in making or not making a local co= py significant enough to have two mechanisms to achieve essentially the sam= e result? How a packet will be processed if both O-flag and the OAM SID End= .OTP are present (the specification only recommends to set O-flag to 0 when END.OTP SID is present) ?

=C2=A0

[ZA] Good point. The res= triction really does not exist and the new version corrects the text.

  • Section 3.5 states that:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0SRH TLV plays an important role in carr= ying OAM and Performance

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Management (PM) metadata.=

I cannot find any other text that illustrates how SR= H TLV plays any role in FM and/or PM OAM.

=C2=A0

[ZA] Indeed, the current draft does not define any T= LV for OAM purposes. The section was added as future drafts may define OAM = TLVs.

However, based on your comments, the section has bee= n removed in the new revision.

  • It is stated in Section 4:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0This section describes how OAM mechanis= ms can be implemented using
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the OAM building blocks described in the previous section.<= /u>

As this is the Standard document, using the normativ= e language would be very much desirable. Then it would be clearer whether t= he use of not only O-flag but of OAM SIDs as well is optional or mandatory.=

=C2=A0

[ZA] Based on your comment, modified the text in the= document to add normative language. Specifically: =C2=A0<= /u>

<= span>o=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 In the new revision, we have added normative text at the beginning of= 3.1.1 where O-bit is defined.

<= span>o=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 Sections 3.3 and 3.4 adds normative texts for OAM SIDs.=

<= span>o=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 4.1.2 and 4.2.2 further adds additional normative text for Ping and t= raceroute use-cases, respectively.

=C2=A0

  • I've noticed that functions used as an example in the document are all = part of active OAM functions. At the same time, the defined processing of t= he O-flag is very much similar to the operation of in-situ OAM. But I don&#= 39;t find any reference to in-situ OAM mechanism, nor discussion of whether both can be used in combination or are mutually = exclusive.

[ZA] Based on your comment, we have removed the rele= vant section.

  • In Section 4.1.2 the identification of an OAM (active OAM or some other kin= d of OAM) packet defined as:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The OAM packets are identified either b= y setting the O-flag in SRH or

=C2=A0 =C2=A0by inserting the END.OP/ END.OTP SIDs a= t an appropriate place in the

=C2=A0 =C2=A0SRH.

Is the use of any of these methods required for any = OAM? If that is the case, then the normative language must be used. Also, i= s it required to use any of these methods for, for example, BFD control pac= kets or STAMP test packets? Isn't using assigned by IANA port number sufficient to identify active IP OAM pa= ckets? Wouldn't the same be applicable in SRv6 OAM?

=C2=A0

[ZA2] You are right that IANA assigned port number s= hould be sufficient to identify active OAM packets. In order to process the= OAM packets targeted to a SID, based on a local configuration, the net-pgm= needs to allow processing of the OAM packets. What we need is a clarification in the net-pgm draft for the = Upper Layer Processing. I=E2=80=99ve added NET-PGM editors (Spring is alrea= dy CC=E2=80=99ed) to request this change.

=C2=A0

[ZA] Normative language has been added to address yo= ur comment. 4.1.2 and 4.2.2 further adds additional normati= ve text for Ping and traceroute use-cases, respectively.

  • I have a question on how a local node selects an application that is to rec= eive a punted packet (whether marked by O-flag that includes one of OAM SID= s)? The document provides examples where the destination is either ICMPv6 o= r a traceroute (?) process. Is that an exhaustive list?

[ZA] The list is not exhaustive. Furthermore, O-bit = is for telemetry use.

=C2=A0

I greatly appreciate your kind consideration and am = looking forward to the productive discussion.

=C2=A0

[ZA] Likewise, many thanks for your comments.

=C2=A0

Thanks

=C2=A0

Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar

=C2=A0

Regards,

Greg

=C2=A0

On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 3:53 PM Ole Troan <otroan@employees..org> wrote:

Hello,

=C2=A0 As agreed in the working group session in Singapore, this message st= arts a new two week 6MAN Working Group Last Call on advancing:

=C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 : Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OA= M) in Segment Routing Networks with IPv6 Data plane (SRv6)
=C2=A0 Author=C2=A0 =C2=A0: Z. Ali, C. Filsfils, S. Matsushima, D. Voyer, M= .. Chen
=C2=A0 Filename : draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam-02
=C2=A0 Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 : 23
=C2=A0 Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: 2019-11-20

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam/

as a Proposed Standard.=C2=A0

Substantive comments and statements of support for publishing this document= should be directed to the mailing list.
Editorial suggestions can be sent to the author. This last call will end on= the 18th of December 2019.

To improve document quality and ensure that bugs are caught as early as pos= sible, we would require at least
two reviewers to do a complete review of the document.=C2=A0 Please let the= chairs know if you are willing to be a reviewer.

The last call will be forwarded to the spring working group, with discussio= n directed to the ipv6 list.

Thanks,
Bob & Ole, 6man co-chairs


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--0000000000005e54d5059f367c75-- From nobody Sun Feb 23 02:12:14 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C59433A0B9A; Sun, 23 Feb 2020 02:12:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ilicWNmqBTXm; Sun, 23 Feb 2020 02:11:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from pipi.pi.nu (pipi.pi.nu [83.168.239.141]) (using TLSv1.1 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 36F163A0B97; Sun, 23 Feb 2020 02:11:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.6] (unknown [119.94.165.58]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: loa@pi.nu) by pipi.pi.nu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3FB6A364591; Sun, 23 Feb 2020 11:11:51 +0100 (CET) To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" , Brian E Carpenter , Ole Troan , 6man WG , SPRING WG Cc: 6man Chairs <6man-chairs@ietf.org> References: <09adcd59-13ae-448b-6a48-5e7471dbd121@pi.nu> <15d6aa7b-b786-57c7-2014-1c76edbc4e77@gmail.com> <82A1B481-B638-4D9B-AC90-A9195CA531F5@cisco.com> <8b407450-0bc5-502b-2907-e05efebc2e84@pi.nu> <3A01D745-7B1A-420B-9A6C-D9A35AA84174@cisco.com> <2d02954d-af78-8d3d-dbcf-5eb989157b47@pi.nu> <842FEA33-2203-4862-9DE0-E963956C3230@cisco.com> From: Loa Andersson Message-ID: Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2020 18:11:47 +0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] 6man w.g. last call for X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2020 10:12:03 -0000 Zafar, authors, I think most of what you done is fine. There are still somr things to do, e.g. align with 7322, rewrite the Abstract and work with the authors of draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header to make their IANA considerations are correct from your point of view. Then this The IPv6 address of the nth Link between node X and Y at the X side is represented as 2001:DB8:X:Y:Xn::, e.g., the IPv6 address of link6 (the 2nd link) between N3 and N4 at N3 in Figure 1 is link between N3 and N4) at node 3 is 2001:DB8:3:4:31::. I'd like to drill down a bit more on this paragraph. In the generic example "Xn" represents the n-th link between node x and Y, right? And you need the first "X" in "X:Y:Xn" to identify the node? SInce the first X uniquely identify the node, why is X needed in the second field. In a specific case the 11th lik of node 3 and the 1st link of node 31 would bive the same result - "311". You disambiguate by the node number of the first "X". So for the eleventh link of nod 3 to node y: 3:y:311 And for the first link of node 31 to node y: 31:y:311 Right? So why should not 3:y:11 and 31:y:1 work. /Loa On 21/02/2020 13:41, Zafar Ali (zali) wrote: > Hi Loa, > > We have addressed most of your comments in the enclosed .txt file. > > We have also uploaded updated XML file to the 6man/OAM repository (but > please use the enclosed .txt file for diffs. Somehow “Compare Editor's > Copy to Working Group Draft†is pointing to older diffs. > > Details of how your comments are addressed are listed in the following > as well as in the enclosed updated diffs file that you shared earlier. > > We plan to address the remaining comments very soon. > > Many thanks again for detailed review. > > Thanks > > Regards … Zafar > > *How comments were addressed*: > > [LA1]The Abstract seems to be a bit ìbareî, it should be a stand-alone > text, this seem to pre-suppose an high level of familiarity with the topic. > > [ZA] rewrite TBD. > > [LA2]Dataplane or data pale,  us one both not both. > > [ZA] Changed. > > [LA3]îsomeî, this begs for an explanation of what has been left out and why. > > [LA4]There is an RFC 7322, please make sure that you are following these > guidelines. > > S for the placement of the ìRequirement Languageî, the style guide says > that it should be placed as a top level section after the Introduction, > however not even the RFC Editor follow that guidance, the Requirement > Language are most often placed as a subsection of the introduction. > > [ZA] Changed the text to follow the RFC7322 guideline. > > [LA5]There is a new template for this, BCP BCP 14 which consists of twp > RFCs ([RFC2119] [RFC8174]) should be referenced. > > [ZA] Reference to [RFC8174] added. > > [LA6]Thos is very sparse, and it is also a direct copy og the abstract > (or the other way around). I donít think this is allowed. > > [ZA] rewrite TBD. > > [LA7]I think you could remove this header and make îAbbreviationsî > section 1.1 > > [ZA] Fixed. > > [LA8]RFC 8402 define this is as îSegemetns Leftî > > [ZA] Good catch! Fixed. > > [LA9]Also this document uses îSegments Leftî > > [ZA] Fixed. > > [LA10]Admittedly the topology is simple, but the figure could be much > clearer. > > I agree that it is a good idea to define a simple topology and use it > throughout the document. > > [ZA] Thanks. Any suggestion to simplify is welcomed. > > [LA11]This could be a good place to explain the use of înode kî. > > [ZA] Moved. > > [LA12]Probably not a very strong point, ìclassicî is already a bit > ambivalent, and will be more so as the time goes by. Iíd say just drop > it, or make it ìnon-SRv6 IPv6 nodesî. > > [ZA] Fixed. > > [LA13]îNode kî is not in the reference topology. > > [ZA] Node k is used to refer to all nodes collectively (e.g., to define > the IPv6 addressing scheme for them.). IMO this should be fine. > > [LA14]If you are going to push the link number into the IPv6 address, it > would be better to start numbering from zero. > > [ZA] There is no node 0 in the topology. The addressing example is based > on node names. IMO this should be fine. > > [LA15]This three is redundant, the î3:4î in the two previous positions > uniquely identify the link, > > [ZA] Actually it is not redundant as the last :3 represents the link > address at node 3 side. IMO this should be fine. > > [LA16]After going through this a number of time Iím convinced that this > is correct. However, it takes quite an effort to go through a rather > cryptic text. Is it possible to clarify. > > [ZA] Thanks for your feedback. Actually there was a typo and I fixed it. > > [LA17]This îS1î means îSID1î, why do we need the ìSî as a special > notation when we already have ìSIDî > > [ZA] Si is a notation that relates to a topology or service segment. > S[j] represents the SID pointed by the SL field in the SRH. S[j] is like > a index in sid-list in the SRH. IMO this should be fine. > > [LA18]When we were specifying MPLS-TP we diid a lot of OAM work, > concepts like MIPs and MEPs were introduced. Do these concepts have any > bearing on SRv6 OAM? > > [ZA] Thanks for your feedback. SRv6 OAM is in-line with OAM in IPv6 > networks, which are not of transport nature. > > [LA19]This is a double reference to the same document and strictly note > necessary The format of the second reference is also wrong and does not > appear in the reference list. > > [ZA] Fixed. > > [LA20]Well, if you do you need a subsection in the IANA Consideration. > The flag field is defined in ietf-6man-segment-routing-header, but it is > still a draft. > > As this document stands now you canít find the IANA allocations. Partly > depending on that IANA not yet done the allocations, but also because if > they were done there is no clear reference to the registry. SRH.Flags is > not the name of the registry. > > [ZA] Fixed. > > [LA21]The notation îSRH.Flagsî is invented here, right? > draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header, and the SRV6 Networking > programming draft (which is referenced for terminology) simply talks > about SRH or ìSRH Flagsî. > > [ZA] The SRH.Flags is defined in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header. > The IANA registry for SRH.Flags is requested in > draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header. This document just defined a > flag to identify OAM packets. > > [LA22]Why start with bit 2, why not 0 or 7? > > [ZA] There is a long history. This O-flag flag were originally defined > in the > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-11. > > During the LC review, it was moved to OAM draft. But the position has > been already defined and used by the ASICs. Hence, keeping the same bit > position. > > [LA23]We are allocating a flag from a registry defined in > draft-ietf-6man-segment- routing-header. Since this is still in IESG > review it will not be possible progress this document until the routing > header document is in the RFC Editors queue, and it canít become an RFC > until the document defining the registry is also an RFC. > > I think the SRH flags registry should be properly named here, "Segment > Routing Header Flags" > > [ZA] Yes, the SRH flags registry is named as "Segment Routing Header > Flags". Please see IANA section in the new revision. > > [LA24]I think the should be either OAM, Operation Administration and > Maintenance; or O&M, OAM and Management. > > See RFC 6291. > > [ZA] Fixed. > > [LA25]Note: Chapter 3 is well written and easy to understand > > [ZA] Will fix it - TBD. > > [LA26]Comment added after reading the entire section, the procedures and > mechanisms described is as far as I can judge well and clearly documented. > > [ZA] Thanks. > > [LA27]An Extreme nit, but I would call this îPing in SRv6 Networksî > > [ZA] Fixed > > [LA28]I said it before ñ I donít like ìClassicî, and I donít thnk it is > necessary or contribute significantly. > > [ZA] We will think about renaming. TBD. > > [LA29]I think this procedures is well and clearly documented. > > [ZA] Thanks. > > [LA30]As far as I can see this works. > > [ZA] Thanks. > > [LA31]We might want a reference. > > [ZA] This should be fine as this is well know. > > [LA32]At this point I start think of SRv6 as îconnection oriented. > > [ZA] SRv6 enables source routing. > > [LA33]I see no immediate technical problems here. > > [ZA] Thanks > > [LA34]I defer to the security experts on this section. > > [ZA] Yes that is part of the review process. > > [LA35]You need text in this section describing the allocation of the O-flag. > > [ZA] Fixed. > > [LA36]What are the registration procedures??? > > If I understand correctly we want to take one of the unused ICMPv6 Type > Numbers and create the ìICMP Type Numbers ñ SRv6 OAM messagesî registry. > > But with all due respect the text is a bit tangled. > > [ZA] Fixed the text. Thanks for the good catch. > > [LA37]This allocation is in itself not problematic, but the registries > are not yet in place., weíll have to wait for the network programming > draft to progress. > > [ZA] Agreed! > > Thanks > > Regards … Zafar > > *From: *"Zafar Ali (zali)" > *Date: *Thursday, February 20, 2020 at 12:30 PM > *To: *Loa Andersson , Brian E Carpenter > , Ole Troan , 6man WG > , SPRING WG > *Cc: *6man Chairs <6man-chairs@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" > > *Subject: *Re: [spring] 6man w.g. last call for > > > Hi Loa, > > Sorry, I could not get back to your other comments, earlier. > > I am starting to look into all outstanding comments. > > It will be great if you could send me copy of the word document diffs > (privately). > > But either way, your comments are quite clear. > > Many Thanks > > Regards … Zafar > > *From: *"Zafar Ali (zali)" > *Date: *Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 6:46 PM > *To: *Loa Andersson , Brian E Carpenter > , Ole Troan , 6man WG > , SPRING WG > *Cc: *6man Chairs <6man-chairs@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" > > *Subject: *Re: [spring] 6man w.g. last call for > > > Loa, > > Many thanks. > > The comments in your email has been addressed in latest version in the > GitHub. > > We are working to address the rest of your comments. > > Thanks > > Regards … Zafar > > *From: *Loa Andersson > *Date: *Wednesday, January 22, 2020 at 5:03 AM > *To: *"Zafar Ali (zali)" , Brian E Carpenter > , Ole Troan , 6man WG > , SPRING WG > *Cc: *6man Chairs <6man-chairs@ietf.org> > *Subject: *Re: [spring] 6man w.g. last call for > > > Zafar, > > Tnx - 1 down 36 to go! > > Actually a bit more with the NITs output. Can you take a look at the > > long lines next, it should be easy edits. > > The first two long lines are in this paragraph: > > 248     S01.1. IF SRH.Flags.O-flag is set and local configuration permits > > 249            O-flag processing THEN > > 250            a. Make a copy of the packet. > > 251            b. Send the copied packet, along with a timestamp > > 252               to the OAM process.      ;; Ref1 > > 253     Ref1: An implementation SHOULD copy and record the timestamp as > > soon as > > 254     possible during packet processing. Timestamp is not carried in > > the packet > > 255     forwarded to the next hop. > > Line 253 has four characters "n as" outside the allowed 72 characters > > Line 254 has the word "packet" outside the allowed 72 characters > > This is inside the figure and I think that you can left shift the > > enire figure, otherwise I don't see a problem with introducing line > > breaks. > > In figure 4: > > 639     > traceroute srv6 B:4:C52 via segment-list B:2:C31 > > 641     Tracing the route to SID function B:4:C52 > > 642      1  2001:DB8:1:2:21 0.512 msec 0.425 msec 0.374 msec > > 643         SRH: (B:4:C52, B:4:OTP, B:2:C31; SL=2) > > 644      2  2001:DB8:2:3:31 0.721 msec 0.810 msec 0.795 msec > > 645         SRH: (B:4:C52, B:4:OTP, B:2:C31; SL=1) > > 646      3  2001:DB8:3:4::41 0.921 msec 0.816 msec 0.759 msec > > 647         SRH: (B:4:C52, B:4:OTP, B:2:C31; SL=1) > > 649        Figure 4 A sample output for hop-by-hop traceroute to a SID > > function > > Line 649 has "tion" of "SID function" (fig numbring) outside the allowed > > 72 characters, again should be easy to left shif or introduce line > > breaks. > > The reason I want to address this first is that it is easy, but also > > a show stopper. > > And last, thugh I hate to add late comments - abbreviations, I have not > > gone through the entire document to look for unexpanded abbreviations, > > but there is at least one "NPU". Which I read as Network Processing Unit, > > what confuses me is that it is not in the RFC Editors abbreviation list > > at all. I think there is an action point for the wg chairs to have it > > introduced, and for the authros to expand, as well as going through the > > document an d make sure that everthing that should be expanded is. > > /Loa > > On 22/01/2020 13:15, Zafar Ali (zali) wrote: > > Hi Loa, > > Many thanks for your follow-up. > > Based on your feedback, we have updated the version in the GitHub. > > Thanks > > Regards … Zafar > > *From: *Loa Andersson > > > *Date: *Tuesday, January 21, 2020 at 9:59 PM > > *To: *"Zafar Ali (zali)" >, > Brian E Carpenter > > >, > Ole Troan >, 6man WG > > >, SPRING WG > > > *Cc: *6man Chairs <6man-chairs@ietf.org > > > *Subject: *Re: [spring] 6man w.g. last call for > > > > Zafar, > > Thanks for addressing this. However one thing remains. The text is now: > > "There MAY be additional segments preceding the END.OP/ END.OTP SID." > > I don't think there is a need for requirement language in that sentence, > > I read it as straightforward English: > > "There may be additional segments preceding the END.OP/ END.OTP SID." > > Would do very well. > > Can you explain the need for requirement language? > > /Loa > > On 22/01/2020 01:55, Zafar Ali (zali) wrote: > >      Hi Brian, > >      Many thanks for your comments. Much appreciated. > >      The working copy of the new version in the repository > addresses your/ > >      Loa’s comment highlighted in your email. > > https://github.com/ietf-6man/srv6-oam > >      Thanks > >      Regards … Zafar > >      *From: *spring > >      > > on behalf of Brian E Carpenter > >      > > > > >      *Organization: *University of Auckland > >      *Date: *Monday, January 20, 2020 at 2:57 PM > >      *To: *Loa Andersson > >, Ole Troan > >      > >, 6man > >      WG > >, SPRING WG > >      > > > >      *Cc: *6man Chairs <6man-chairs@ietf.org > > > > >      *Subject: *Re: [spring] 6man w.g. last call for > >      > >      To be clear about one of the points in the review, MAY NOT is not > >      allowed by RFC2119 because it is totally ambiguous in English > (since it > >      can mean either "must not" or "might not"). In any case the > phrase "MAY > >      or MAY NOT" is not of any normative value. It presumably > simply means > >      "MAY" in all cases in this draft. > >      Regards > >            Brian > >      On 20-Jan-20 20:54, Loa Andersson wrote: > >            WG, > >            I have reviewed the entire document. > >            First, I'm not an IPv6 expert. > >            As far as I can see the sued on > >            I have not used github, I had a couple of attempts to learn > >      the tools, > >            but so far I have failed. > >            I have instead done what I use to do, use the review > tool with > >      Word. > >            Since I sometimes have a pushback on the docx-format I save > >      the result > >            as a .txt-file. Drawback is that all comment show up as > >      refrences to a > >            list at the end of the document. But you can't get > everything. > >            /Loa > >            PS gives this output for this draft; it is quite a lot > and in > >      itself are > >            so much that it is worth sending it bck to the authors and > >      asking them > >            to fix it. Was the noits tool checked at all before starting > >      the wglc? > >            idnits 2.16.02 > >            /tmp/draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam-03.txt: > >                 Checking boilerplate required by RFC 5378 and the IETF > >      Trust (see > > https://trustee.ietf.org/license-info): > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >                    No issues found here. > >                 Checking nits according to > > https://www.ietf.org/id-info/1id-guidelines.txt: > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >                    No issues found here. > >                 Checking nits according to > > https://www.ietf.org/id-info/checklist : > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >                 ** There are 3 instances of too long lines in the > >      document, the > >            longest one > >                    being 6 characters in excess of 72. > >                 == There are 5 instances of lines with > >      non-RFC3849-compliant IPv6 > >            addresses > >                    in the document.  If these are example > addresses, they > >            should be > >            changed. > >                 Miscellaneous warnings: > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >                 == The copyright year in the IETF Trust and authors > >      Copyright Line > >            does not > >                    match the current year > >                 -- The exact meaning of the all-uppercase > expression 'MAY > >      NOT' > >            is not > >                    defined in RFC 2119.  If it is intended as a > requirements > >            expression, it > >                    should be rewritten using one of the combinations > >      defined in > >            RFC 2119; > >                    otherwise it should not be all-uppercase. > >                 == The expression 'MAY NOT', while looking like RFC > 2119 > >            requirements > >            text, > >                    is not defined in RFC 2119, and should not be > >      used.  Consider > >            using 'MUST > >                    NOT' instead (if that is what you mean). > >                    Found 'MAY NOT' in this paragraph: > >                    To perform ICMPv6 ping to a target SID an echo > request > >            message is > >                    generated by the initiator with the END.OP or > END.OTP > >      SID in the > >                    segment-list of the SRH immediately preceding the > >      target SID. > >            There MAY > >                    or MAY NOT be additional segments preceding the > END.OP/ > >            END.OTP SID. > >                 == The expression 'MAY NOT', while looking like RFC > 2119 > >            requirements > >            text, > >                    is not defined in RFC 2119, and should not be > >      used.  Consider > >            using 'MUST > >                    NOT' instead (if that is what you mean). > >                    Found 'MAY NOT' in this paragraph: > >                    To traceroute a target SID a probe message is > >      generated by the > >                    initiator with the END.OP or END.OTP SID in the > >      segment-list of > >            the SRH > >                    immediately preceding the target SID.  There MAY or > >      MAY NOT be > >            additional > >                    segments preceding the END.OP/ END.OTP SID. > >                 -- The document date (December 18, 2019) is 32 days > in the > >            past.  Is this > >                    intentional? > >                 Checking references for intended status: Proposed > Standard > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >                    (See RFCs 3967 and 4897 for information about using > >      normative > >            references > >                    to lower-maturity documents in RFCs) > >                 == Missing Reference: 'SL' is mentioned on line > 190, but not > >            defined > >                 -- Looks like a reference, but probably isn't: '2' on > >      line 191 > >                 -- Looks like a reference, but probably isn't: '1' on > >      line 191 > >                 -- Looks like a reference, but probably isn't: '0' on > >      line 192 > >                 == Missing Reference: 'RFC7011' is mentioned on > line 230, but > >            not defined > >                 == Missing Reference: 'I-D.ietf-idr-bgpls-srv6-ext' is > >            mentioned on line > >                    241, but not defined > >                 == Missing Reference: 'RFC792' is mentioned on line > 701, but > >            not defined > >                 == Missing Reference: 'RFC 8403' is mentioned on line > >      660, but not > >            defined > >                 == Unused Reference: 'RFC0792' is defined on line > 823, but no > >            explicit > >                    reference was found in the text > >                 == Unused Reference: 'RFC8403' is defined on line > 843, but no > >            explicit > >                    reference was found in the text > >                 == Outdated reference: A later version (-08) exists of > >                    draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-06 > >                    Summary: 1 error (**), 0 flaws (~~), 12 warnings > (==), 5 > >            comments > >            (--). > >                    Run idnits with the --verbose option for more > detailed > >            information > >            about > >                    the items above. > >            On 05/12/2019 04:53, Ole Troan wrote: > >                Hello, > >                     As agreed in the working group session in > Singapore, this > >                message starts a new two week 6MAN Working Group > Last Call on > >                advancing: > >                     Title    : Operations, Administration, and > Maintenance > >                (OAM) in Segment Routing Networks with IPv6 Data > plane (SRv6) > >                     Author   : Z. Ali, C. Filsfils, S. Matsushima, D. > >      Voyer, M. > >                Chen > >                     Filename : draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam-02 > >                     Pages    : 23 > >                     Date     : 2019-11-20 > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam/ > >                as a Proposed Standard. > >                Substantive comments and statements of support for > publishing > >                this document should be directed to the mailing list. > >                Editorial suggestions can be sent to the author. > This last > >      call > >                will end on the 18th of December 2019. > >                To improve document quality and ensure that bugs are > caught as > >                early as possible, we would require at least > >                two reviewers to do a complete review of the > document.  Please > >                let the chairs know if you are willing to be a reviewer. > >                The last call will be forwarded to the spring > working group, > >                with discussion directed to the ipv6 list. > >                Thanks, > >                Bob & Ole, 6man co-chairs > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >                IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > ipv6@ietf.org > > >                Administrative Requests: > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >            IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > ipv6@ietf.org > > >            Administrative Requests: > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >      _______________________________________________ > >      spring mailing list > > spring@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > -- > > Loa Andersson                        email: loa@pi.nu > > > Senior MPLS Expert > > Bronze Dragon Consulting             phone: +46 739 81 21 64 > > _______________________________________________ > > spring mailing list > > spring@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > -- > > Loa Andersson                        email: loa@pi.nu > > Senior MPLS Expert > > Bronze Dragon Consulting             phone: +46 739 81 21 64 > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > -- Loa Andersson email: loa@pi.nu Senior MPLS Expert Bronze Dragon Consulting phone: +46 739 81 21 64 From nobody Sun Feb 23 05:20:28 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78B2E3A0EF9; Sun, 23 Feb 2020 05:20:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.889 X-Spam-Level: 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LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLQ0K ------=_001_NextPart438378370152_=---- Content-Type: text/html; charset="GB2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A
Hi Group,

From = carriers' point view, the application scenario for the G= eneralize SRv6 SID is valid. It can provide = some important functions as follows.
1.  In the process of ne= twork evolution, there are cases where IPv6 networks and IPv4 networks coe= xist. An SRv6 packet may cross IPv4 networking. Usually, the packet will b= e transported by an IPv6 over IPv4 tunnel.G-SID provides two options for carrying IPv4 tunnel= information.
2. In the SD-WAN scenario, = ; An SRv6 packet may cross the M= PLS domain. The Generalized Segment Routing Header can effectively reduce = the configuration in the middle nodes.
=
=0A
Best Regards,
Cong Li
= =0A
=0A=0A =0A Normal=0A = 0=0A =0A =0A = =0A 7.8 =B0=F5=0A 0=0A 2=0A =0A = false=0A = false=0A false=0A =0A EN-US=0A ZH-CN=0A X-NONE=0A = =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A = =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A = =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A= =0A =0A =0A =0A =0A=0A=0A=0A

= =C0=EE=B4=CF/Li=0ACong

= =0A

=D0=C2=D0=CB=D0=C5=CF=A2=BC= =BC=CA=F5=D1=D0=BE=BF=CB=F9 IP=D3=EB=CE=B4=C0= =B4=CD=F8=C2=E7=D1=D0=BE=BF=D6=D0=D0=C4

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= =0A

=B5=D8=D6=B7=A3=BA=B1=B1=BE= =A9=CA=D0=B2=FD=C6=BD=C7=F8=B1=B1=C6=DF=BC=D2=D5=F2=CE=B4=C0=B4=BF=C6=BC= =BC=B3=C7=C4=CF=C7=F8=D6=D0=B9=FA=B5=E7=D0=C5=B1=B1=BE=A9=D0=C5=CF=A2=BF= =C6=BC=BC=B4=B4=D0=C2=D4=B0902=CA=D2

=0A

=D3=CA=B1=E0=A3=BA102209

=0A

=D3=CA=CF=E4=A3= =BAlicong@chinatelecom.cn=0A

=B5=E7=BB=B0=A3=BA=A3=A8010=A3=A950902556=

=0A

=CA=D6=BB= =FA=A3=BA18101266382

=0A<= !--EndFragment-->
=0A
 
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Lizhenbin
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3= =BA 2020-02-21 00:53
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA spring@ietf.org; ipv6@ietf.org
=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA Hui Tian; Chongfeng Xie; Li Cong; Feng Zhao
=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA FW: New Version = Notification for draft-cl-spring-generalized-srv6-np-00.txt
Hi Folks,
=0A
We proposed following two drafts. They= are to propose the unified mechanism based on Generalize SRv6 SID
= =0A
which can encapsulate Compressed SRv6 SID, MPLS Label and IPv4 tun= nel information to cope with the
=0A
emerging new requirements o= f SRv6 including SRv6 compression, crossing SR-MPLS domains and crossing <= /div>=0A
IPv4 domains. At the same time the mechanisms keep the compat= ibility of the existing SRv6 Network Program
=0A
mechanisms and = comply with the basic rule of Segment Routing that the path is programmed = in the ingress node
=0A
without introducing extra network states= in the transit nodes.
=0A
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/d= raft-cl-spring-generalized-srv6-np-00.txt
=0A
https://www.ietf.or= g/internet-drafts/draft-lc-6man-generalized-srh-00.txt
=0A
 =
=0A
 
=0A
Your comments are welcome.
=0A
=  
=0A
 
=0A
 
=0A
Best Regards,<= /div>=0A
Zhenbin (Robin)
=0A
 
=0A
 
= =0A
 
=0A
 
=0A
__________________________= ______________
=0A
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: internet-drafts@ietf.org [= internet-drafts@ietf.org]
=0A
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2020=C4= =EA2=D4=C211=C8=D5 17:39
=0A
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Lizhenbin; Weiqi= ang Cheng; Feng Zhao; Chengli (Cheng Li); Li Cong; Chongfeng Xie; Hui Tian= ; Cong Li
=0A
=D6=F7=CC=E2: New Version Notification for draft-cl= -spring-generalized-srv6-np-00.txt
=0A
 
=0A
A new = version of I-D, draft-cl-spring-generalized-srv6-np-00.txt
=0A
ha= s been successfully submitted by Zhenbin Li and posted to the
=0AIETF repository.
=0A
 
=0A
Name:   =         draft-cl-spring-generalized-srv= 6-np
=0A
Revision:       00
= =0A
Title:          Gener= alized SRv6 Network Programming
=0A
Document date:  2020-02-= 11
=0A
Group:        &nbs= p; Individual Submission
=0A
Pages:     =      30
=0A
URL:     = ;       https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts= /draft-cl-spring-generalized-srv6-np-00.txt
=0A
Status: &nbs= p;       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dr= aft-cl-spring-generalized-srv6-np/
=0A
Htmlized:   = ;    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cl-spring-generalize= d-srv6-np-00
=0A
Htmlized:       ht= tps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-cl-spring-generalized-srv6-np=0A
 
=0A
 
=0A
Abstract:
=0A
=    As the deployment of SRv6, some new requirements are proposed= , such
=0A
   as SRv6 compression, transporting over SR= -MPLS/MPLS and IPv4 domains.
=0A
   Therefore, it is ne= cessary to consider other types of segments or
=0A
   s= ub-paths in the end-to-end SRv6 network programming.
=0A
 =0A
   This document proposes Generalized Segment Routin= g over IPv6 (G-SRv6)
=0A
   Networking Programming, whi= ch supports to encode multiple types of
=0A
   Segments= in a SRH, called Generalized SRH (G-SRH).  These Segments
=0A   can be called Generalized Segment, and the ID can be Gener= alized
=0A
   Segment Identifier (G-SID), which may inc= lude an SRv6 SID(128 bits),
=0A
   C-SIDs, MPLS labels,= or IPv4 tunnel information.
=0A
 
=0A
  = This document also defines the mechanisms of Generalized SRv6
=0A   Networking Programming and the requirements of related prot= ocol
=0A
   extensions of control plane and data plane.=
=0A
 
=0A
 
=0A
 
=0A
=  
=0A
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from = the time of submission
=0A
until the htmlized version and diff ar= e available at tools.ietf.org.
=0A
 
=0A
The IETF S= ecretariat
=0A
--------------------------------------------------= ------------------
=0A
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
= =0A
ipv6@ietf.org
=0A
Administrative Requests: https://www.ie= tf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
=0A
--------------------------------= ------------------------------------
=0A
=0A= ------=_001_NextPart438378370152_=------ From nobody Sun Feb 23 12:06:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietf.org Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C5763A0DE8; Sun, 23 Feb 2020 12:06:05 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: spring@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.118.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: spring@ietf.org Message-ID: <158248836511.1031.1350509839394231473@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2020 12:06:05 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2020 20:06:05 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Source Packet Routing in Networking WG of the IETF. Title : SRv6 Network Programming Authors : Clarence Filsfils Pablo Camarillo Garvia John Leddy Daniel Voyer Satoru Matsushima Zhenbin Li Filename : draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt Pages : 38 Date : 2020-02-23 Abstract: The SRv6 Network Programming framework enables a network operator or an application to specify a packet packet processing program by encoding a sequence of instructions in the IPv6 packet header. Each instruction is implemented on one or several nodes in the network and identified by an SRv6 Segment Identifier in the packet. This document defines the SRv6 Network Programming concept and specifies the base set of SRv6 behaviors that enables the creation of interoperable overlays with underlay optimization (Service Level Agreements). The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sun Feb 23 12:10:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39BAD3A0E21 for ; Sun, 23 Feb 2020 12:10:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=VNaOgDM0; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com header.b=V4Khe1bP Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost 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PC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9ibG9ja3F1b3RlPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwv Ym9keT4NCjwvaHRtbD4NCg== --_000_16588C97EE7C4F418232DA66758C566Dciscocom_-- From nobody Sun Feb 23 12:47:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 769E73A0ED7 for ; Sun, 23 Feb 2020 12:47:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=steffann.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 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mail.sintact.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.sintact.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id FhSydft0OcUd; Sun, 23 Feb 2020 21:46:53 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:8921:c1ed:e98b:133d] (unknown [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:8921:c1ed:e98b:133d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 268403C; Sun, 23 Feb 2020 21:46:53 +0100 (CET) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann Message-Id: <1BB7ED35-98EC-4A73-92A3-AD043D462CF7@steffann.nl> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4C99E784-2AE6-43CC-AC40-283F8E7937A4"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3594.4.19\)) Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2020 21:46:51 +0100 In-Reply-To: <7481061F-75A5-4E4D-80AE-40E1F933E94A@cisco.com> Cc: "spring@ietf.org" To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" References: <158248836511.1031.1350509839394231473@ietfa.amsl.com> <7481061F-75A5-4E4D-80AE-40E1F933E94A@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3594.4.19) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2020 20:47:00 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_4C99E784-2AE6-43CC-AC40-283F8E7937A4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, > We have published a new update to = draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming. This revision simplifies the = counters as per [1], clarifies the upper layer header processing as per = [2] and removes the reference to the OAM draft [3]. I still oppose the segment popping flavours in section 4.16 without = updating RFC8200. Cheers, Sander --Apple-Mail=_4C99E784-2AE6-43CC-AC40-283F8E7937A4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEl13OIanoifT0p8LWWPjdc9pon8sFAl5S5LsACgkQWPjdc9po n8sIBBAAqpYekB/xvEBxLylDaOzQTnUQoUABwxf6jK+ny2LZm3vfYLiwggZbP3Uy fM/jEw53AlPNGjx5m+5tlUXcD//PkCEJqVbOZuF4faLgXaEoWPfXo11k6tzYHVeT ffNmM1rYqgu5FaPfnP0yH5EflgawWWS5LG+UNGMWlUgPwFdujgZQ9ji4ccqKfSei SG3Hk+mSyp4+CcQ19T/rOBgUbGSlHRAdaSov5o5DTA3YJgCA8oi1cDqHVaWODBpM ZKfBhxYYZF8wsvZ9pyExt8cCJ3julC86KkB3zYwB4nOVXqwor0+kyFTgofVMpacZ ViJTh9LdjosaLYoA4lG0xJqkLDar8sewYKJ59zC6AhQti+m7mEqeSCJNBpjblZMl NMTU1/ZeDa68uRQkdtdlPWHQXxtReqGrXLFqjsgHcHjugoJEoIAzmsTl5kKYIwzv JOPOJRU8iK0cW4jLrkGbzF5J+3X5AyLbrpR1CmP2N8ss+BC5Fhr2en1z56w8kAjp gAMBu8TwWYYxu3+jr3rZHg1uMuh/1bO2JRQcYlVlm9n31Cz3+JvX7GGjxiGMxQBQ dc15DD7zO0Z9WL0HpT13G9ayTcFwoiWBQYyfGeh/isuRu3amgqsIxUrimVgG35S7 Tpqrecsd2JfSj89msSqPT0wandkPToFeFOywZm9h2NsvPKYFIlk= =hPA/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_4C99E784-2AE6-43CC-AC40-283F8E7937A4-- From nobody Sun Feb 23 13:49:50 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 882443A0FF0 for ; 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Sun, 23 Feb 2020 13:49:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <158248836511.1031.1350509839394231473@ietfa.amsl.com> <7481061F-75A5-4E4D-80AE-40E1F933E94A@cisco.com> <1BB7ED35-98EC-4A73-92A3-AD043D462CF7@steffann.nl> In-Reply-To: <1BB7ED35-98EC-4A73-92A3-AD043D462CF7@steffann.nl> From: Mark Smith Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 08:49:34 +1100 Message-ID: To: Sander Steffann Cc: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" , SPRING WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ad199e059f453bb7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 23 Feb 2020 21:49:49 -0000 --000000000000ad199e059f453bb7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, 24 Feb 2020, 07:47 Sander Steffann, wrote: > Hi, > > > We have published a new update to > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming. This revision simplifies the > counters as per [1], clarifies the upper layer header processing as per [2] > and removes the reference to the OAM draft [3]. > > I still oppose the segment popping flavours in section 4.16 without > updating RFC8200. > I would expect that defying Internet Standard 86/RFC8200 means this ID needs to have Experimental rather than Standards Track status. > Cheers, > Sander > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --000000000000ad199e059f453bb7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, 24 Feb 2020, 07:47 Sander Steffann, <sander@steffann.nl> wrote:
Hi,

> We have published a new update to draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-progr= amming. This revision simplifies the counters as per [1], clarifies the upp= er layer header processing as per [2] and removes the reference to the OAM = draft [3].

I still oppose the segment popping flavours in section 4.16 without updatin= g RFC8200.

I would expect that defying Internet Standard 86/RFC8200 means th= is ID needs to have Experimental rather than Standards Track status.
<= div dir=3D"auto">


Cheers,
Sander

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.= ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
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(Postfix) with ESMTPS id 043EF3A0AA5 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 02:06:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR05-VI1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-vi1eur05lp2168.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.17.168]) (Using TLS) by relay.mimecast.com with ESMTP id uk-mta-111-ckZuyalBMcul8NoY_VXEhg-1; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 10:06:22 +0000 X-MC-Unique: ckZuyalBMcul8NoY_VXEhg-1 Received: from DBBPR03MB5415.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (20.179.47.79) by DBBPR03MB5206.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.255.78.209) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2750.21; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 10:06:21 +0000 Received: from DBBPR03MB5415.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::31cd:8171:1d1f:2fa9]) by DBBPR03MB5415.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::31cd:8171:1d1f:2fa9%5]) with mapi id 15.20.2750.021; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 10:06:21 +0000 From: Andrew Alston To: Mark Smith , Sander Steffann CC: SPRING WG , "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" Thread-Topic: [spring] I-D Action: 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+0000 From: Ron Bonica To: Andrew Alston , Mark Smith , Sander Steffann CC: SPRING WG , "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" Thread-Topic: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt Thread-Index: AQHV6oS0wgZI2Ya6SUW/GeGpDkHR5qgpNZwAgAAKGoCAABGFAIAAzduAgABNWsA= Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 15:26:47 +0000 Message-ID: References: <158248836511.1031.1350509839394231473@ietfa.amsl.com> <7481061F-75A5-4E4D-80AE-40E1F933E94A@cisco.com> <1BB7ED35-98EC-4A73-92A3-AD043D462CF7@steffann.nl> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Enabled=True; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SiteId=bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Owner=rbonica@juniper.net; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SetDate=2020-02-24T15:26:45.4425339Z; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Name=Juniper Business Use 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f6057a2c-279c-4b7a-c182-08d7b93df659 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 24 Feb 2020 15:26:47.1946 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: rriFRbaU3UXf+SQJd4HmTYTVrNql7ZiMn/Bct41cDcn2JpFP7JD0QyivD2j0xOl9Nqw9YWwcb3QOmz7zDpc9DA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR05MB6091 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.138, 18.0.572 definitions=2020-02-24_04:2020-02-21, 2020-02-24 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 clxscore=1011 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 priorityscore=1501 impostorscore=0 mlxscore=0 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2001150001 definitions=main-2002240125 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 15:26:56 -0000 --_000_DM6PR05MB63489BE3D1C669C277D64906AEEC0DM6PR05MB6348namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Folks, We may need to ask the following questions: 1. Does PSP violate letter of RFC 8200? 2. Does PSP violate the spirit of RFC 8200? 3. Is PSP a good idea? The 6man WG, and not SPRING, should answer the first two questions. So I wi= ll avoid them an explore the third. At first glance, PSP adds no value. Once Segments Left has been decremented= to 0, the Routing header becomes a NOOP. So why bother to remove it? I see= the following arguments: 1. To save bandwidth between the penultimate and ultimate segment endpoi= nts. 2. To unburden the ultimate segment endpoint from the task of processing= the SRH 3. To unburden the ultimate segment endpoint from the task of removing t= he SRH The first argument is weak. Routing headers should not be so large that the= bandwidth they consume is an issue. The second argument is also weak. Once the ultimate segment endpoint has ex= amined the Segments Left field, it can ignore the SRH. The ultimate segment= endpoint must be SRv6-aware, because it must process the SID in the IPv6 d= estination address field. Given that the ultimate segment endpoint is SRv6 = aware, it should be able to process the SRH on the fast path. The third argument is even weaker. The ultimate segment endpoint: * Has to remove the IPv6 tunnel header, anyway * Being closer to the edge, may be less heavily loaded than the penulti= mate segment endpoint. Can anyone articulate a better justification for PSP? If not, why test the = limits of RFC 8200 over it? = Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: spring On Behalf Of Andrew Alston Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 5:06 AM To: Mark Smith ; Sander Steffann Cc: SPRING WG ; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programmin= g-10.txt I agree with the sentiments expressed below Andrew From: spring > On B= ehalf Of Mark Smith Sent: Monday, 24 February 2020 00:50 To: Sander Steffann > Cc: SPRING WG >; Pablo Camarillo (p= camaril) > Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programmin= g-10.txt On Mon, 24 Feb 2020, 07:47 Sander Steffann, > wrote: Hi, > We have published a new update to draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programm= ing. This revision simplifies the counters as per [1], clarifies the upper = layer header processing as per [2] and removes the reference to the OAM dra= ft [3]. I still oppose the segment popping flavours in section 4.16 without updatin= g RFC8200. I would expect that defying Internet Standard 86/RFC8200 means this ID need= s to have Experimental rather than Standards Track status. Cheers, Sander _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring --_000_DM6PR05MB63489BE3D1C669C277D64906AEEC0DM6PR05MB6348namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Folks,

 

We may need to ask the following questions:

 

  1. Does PSP violate letter of RFC 8200?
  2. Does PSP vi= olate the spirit of RFC 8200?
  3. Is PSP a good idea?=

 

The 6man WG, and not SPRING, should answer the first= two questions. So I will avoid them an explore the third.

 

At first glance, PSP adds no value. Once Segments Le= ft has been decremented to 0, the Routing header becomes a NOOP. So why bot= her to remove it? I see the following arguments:

 

  1. To save bandwidth between the penultimate and ultimate segment endpoi= nts.
  2. To unburden the ultimate segment endpoint from th= e task of processing the SRH
  3. To unburden the ultimate = segment endpoint from the task of removing the SRH

 

The first argument is weak. Routing headers should n= ot be so large that the bandwidth they consume is an issue.

 

The second argument is also weak. Once the ultimate = segment endpoint has examined the Segments Left field, it can ignore the SR= H. The ultimate segment endpoint must be SRv6-aware, because it must proces= s the SID in the IPv6 destination address field. Given that the ultimate segment endpoint is SRv6 aware, it = should be able to process the SRH on the fast path.

 

The third argument is even weaker. The ultimate segm= ent endpoint:

  • Has to remove the IPv6 tunnel header, anyway
  • Bei= ng closer to the edge, may be less heavily loaded than the penultimate segm= ent endpoint.

 

Can anyone articulate a better justification for PSP= ? If not, why test the limits of RFC 8200 over it?

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;             =             &nb= sp;            =           Ron<= /p>

 

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> = On Behalf Of Andrew Alston
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 5:06 AM
To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>; Sander Steffann <s= ander@steffann.nl>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) &l= t;pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming-10.txt

 

I agree with the sentiments expressed below

 

Andrew

 

 

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Mark Smith
Sent: Monday, 24 February 2020 00:50
To: Sander Steffann <sander= @steffann.nl>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org= >; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming-10.txt

 

 

On Mon, 24 Feb 2020, 07:47 Sander Steffann, <sander@steffann.nl&= gt; wrote:

Hi,

> We have published a new update to draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-progr= amming. This revision simplifies the counters as per [1], clarifies the upp= er layer header processing as per [2] and removes the reference to the OAM = draft [3].

I still oppose the segment popping flavours in section 4.16 without updatin= g RFC8200.

 

I would expect that defying Internet Standard 86/RFC= 8200 means this ID needs to have Experimental rather than Standards Track s= tatus.

 

 

 


Cheers,
Sander

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spr= ing

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SMTP id k13mr25640424iol.276.1582587331643; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 15:35:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <158248836511.1031.1350509839394231473@ietfa.amsl.com> <7481061F-75A5-4E4D-80AE-40E1F933E94A@cisco.com> <1BB7ED35-98EC-4A73-92A3-AD043D462CF7@steffann.nl> In-Reply-To: From: Gyan Mishra Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 18:35:20 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" Cc: Ron Bonica , SPRING WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ba8f37059f5ad30a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 23:35:38 -0000 --000000000000ba8f37059f5ad30a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable PSP has historical context from PHP ( Penultimate Hop POP) in the MPLS world. 20+ years ago when MPLS we originally developed the concept of PHP implicit null reserved label value 0 was done to offload the burden of the egress PE FEC destination to pop the entire label stack before forwarding the native IP packet to the CE. Hardware these days for the last 15 years or so are so advanced that the idea that you are saving processing on the egress PE has not existed for a long time. Even back then in both SP and enterprise space there were issues that arise related to PHB QOS egress queuing, that occurs on the PHP node that had the MPLS shim popped, it cannot schedule on the topmost label via exp provider markings done on the ingress PE upon label imposition. A workaround to this issue was to set explicit null label value 0 and use pipe or uniform mode to tunnel the customer payload to the egress PE FEC destination called UHP ultimate hop node with topmost label intact. The concept of implicit null PHP concept did not bode well in the MPLS world so I don=E2=80=99t see why that feature parity would be added to a ne= xt gen protocol that would be the future MPLS replacement. I agree with taking some of the good features and knobs from MPLS, but why take the ones like implicit null with is really an archaic feature. My 2 cents Gyan On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 5:38 PM Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote: > Ron, > > > > This is the 5th time that we have this discussion in the past five months= . > > > > I consider those three questions as closed based on the previous > discussion. > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/yRkDJlXd71k0VUqagM3D77vYcFI/ > > > > Cheers, > > Pablo. > > > > *From: *Ron Bonica > *Date: *Monday, 24 February 2020 at 16:27 > *To: *Andrew Alston , Mark Smith < > markzzzsmith@gmail.com>, Sander Steffann > *Cc: *SPRING WG , "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" < > pcamaril@cisco.com> > *Subject: *RE: [spring] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt > > > > Folks, > > > > We may need to ask the following questions: > > > > 1) Does PSP violate letter of RFC 8200? > > 2) Does PSP violate the spirit of RFC 8200? > > 3) Is PSP a good idea? > > > > The 6man WG, and not SPRING, should answer the first two questions. So I > will avoid them an explore the third. > > > > At first glance, PSP adds no value. Once Segments Left has been > decremented to 0, the Routing header becomes a NOOP. So why bother to > remove it? I see the following arguments: > > > > 1) To save bandwidth between the penultimate and ultimate segment > endpoints. > > 2) To unburden the ultimate segment endpoint from the task of > processing the SRH > > 3) To unburden the ultimate segment endpoint from the task of > removing the SRH > > > > The first argument is weak. Routing headers should not be so large that > the bandwidth they consume is an issue. > > > > The second argument is also weak. Once the ultimate segment endpoint has > examined the Segments Left field, it can ignore the SRH. The ultimate > segment endpoint must be SRv6-aware, because it must process the SID in t= he > IPv6 destination address field. Given that the ultimate segment endpoint = is > SRv6 aware, it should be able to process the SRH on the fast path. > > > > The third argument is even weaker. The ultimate segment endpoint: > > - Has to remove the IPv6 tunnel header, anyway > > - Being closer to the edge, may be less heavily loaded than the > penultimate segment endpoint. > > > > Can anyone articulate a better justification for PSP? If not, why test th= e > limits of RFC 8200 over it? > > > > > Ron > > > > > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > *From:* spring *On Behalf Of *Andrew Alston > *Sent:* Monday, February 24, 2020 5:06 AM > *To:* Mark Smith ; Sander Steffann < > sander@steffann.nl> > *Cc:* SPRING WG ; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) 40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> > *Subject:* Re: [spring] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt > > > > I agree with the sentiments expressed below > > > > Andrew > > > > > > *From:* spring *On Behalf Of *Mark Smith > *Sent:* Monday, 24 February 2020 00:50 > *To:* Sander Steffann > *Cc:* SPRING WG ; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) < > pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> > *Subject:* Re: [spring] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt > > > > > > On Mon, 24 Feb 2020, 07:47 Sander Steffann, wrote: > > Hi, > > > We have published a new update to > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming. This revision simplifies the > counters as per [1], clarifies the upper layer header processing as per [= 2] > and removes the reference to the OAM draft [3]. > > I still oppose the segment popping flavours in section 4.16 without > updating RFC8200. > > > > I would expect that defying Internet Standard 86/RFC8200 means this ID > needs to have Experimental rather than Standards Track status. > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > Sander > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --=20 Gyan Mishra Network Engineering & Technology Verizon Silver Spring, MD 20904 Phone: 301 502-1347 Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com --000000000000ba8f37059f5ad30a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

PSP has historical context from PHP ( Penu= ltimate Hop POP) in the MPLS world. =C2=A0

20+ years ago when MPLS we originally developed the conc= ept of PHP implicit null reserved label value 0 was done to offload the bur= den of the egress PE FEC destination to pop the entire label stack before f= orwarding the native IP packet to the CE.

=
Hardware these days for the last 15 years or so are so ad= vanced that the idea that you are saving processing on the egress PE has no= t existed for a long time. =C2=A0

Even =C2=A0back then in both SP and enterprise space there were i= ssues that arise related to PHB QOS egress queuing, =C2=A0that occurs on th= e PHP node that had the MPLS shim popped, it cannot schedule on the topmost= label via exp provider markings done on the ingress PE upon label impositi= on. =C2=A0

A workaround = to this issue was to set explicit null label value 0 and use pipe or unifor= m mode to tunnel the customer payload to the egress PE FEC destination call= ed UHP ultimate hop node with topmost label intact. =C2=A0

The concept of implicit null PHP concept= did not bode well in the MPLS world so I don=E2=80=99t see why that featur= e parity would be added to a next gen protocol that would be the future MPL= S replacement.

I agree w= ith taking some of the good features and knobs from MPLS, but why take the = ones like implicit null with is really an archaic feature.

My 2 cents

Gyan

On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 5:38 PM Pablo Camari= llo (pcamaril) <pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Ron,

=C2=A0

This is t= he 5th=C2=A0time that we have this discussion in the past five m= onths.

=C2=A0

I conside= r those three questions as closed based on the previous discussion.<= span style=3D"color:black">

ht= tps://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/yRkDJlXd71k0VUqagM3D77vYcFI/

=C2=A0

Cheers,

Pablo.

=C2=A0

From: Ron Bonica <rbon= ica=3D40j= uniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
Date: Monday, 24 February 2020 at 16:27
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>, Mark Smith = <markzzzsmit= h@gmail.com>, Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>, "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com&= gt;
Subject: RE: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming-10.txt

=C2=A0

Folks,

=C2=A0

We may need to ask the = following questions:

=C2=A0

1)=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Does PSP violate letter of RF= C 8200?

2)=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Does PSP violate the spirit o= f RFC 8200?

3)=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Is PSP a good idea?=

=C2=A0

The 6man WG, and not SP= RING, should answer the first two questions. So I will avoid them an explor= e the third.

=C2=A0

At first glance, PSP ad= ds no value. Once Segments Left has been decremented to 0, the Routing head= er becomes a NOOP. So why bother to remove it? I see the following argument= s:

=C2=A0

1)=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 To save bandwidth between the= penultimate and ultimate segment endpoints.

2)=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 To unburden the ultimate segm= ent endpoint from the task of processing the SRH

3)=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 To unburden the ultimate segm= ent endpoint from the task of removing the SRH

=C2=A0

The first argument is w= eak. Routing headers should not be so large that the bandwidth they consume= is an issue.

=C2=A0

The second argument is = also weak. Once the ultimate segment endpoint has examined the Segments Lef= t field, it can ignore the SRH. The ultimate segment endpoint must be SRv6-= aware, because it must process the SID in the IPv6 destination address field. Given that the ultimate segment end= point is SRv6 aware, it should be able to process the SRH on the fast path.=

=C2=A0

The third argument is e= ven weaker. The ultimate segment endpoint:

-=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Has to remove the IPv6 tunnel= header, anyway

-=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Being closer to the edge, may= be less heavily loaded than the penultimate segment endpoint.

=C2=A0

Can anyone articulate a= better justification for PSP? If not, why test the limits of RFC 8200 over= it?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Ron

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Juniper Business Use Only

From: spring <= ;spring-bounce= s@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Andrew Alston
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 5:06 AM
To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>; Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmar= c.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming-10.txt

=C2=A0

I agree with the sentim= ents expressed below

=C2=A0

Andrew

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: spring <= ;spring-bounce= s@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Mark Smith
Sent: Monday, 24 February 2020 00:50
To: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril=3D40cis= co.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming-10.txt

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Mon, 24 Feb 2020, 07= :47 Sander Steffann, <sander@steffann.nl> wrote:

Hi,

> We have published a new update to draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-progr= amming. This revision simplifies the counters as per [1], clarifies the upp= er layer header processing as per [2] and removes the reference to the OAM = draft [3].

I still oppose the segment popping flavours in section 4.16 without updatin= g RFC8200.

=C2=A0

I would expect that def= ying Internet Standard 86/RFC8200 means this ID needs to have Experimental = rather than Standards Track status.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0


Cheers,
Sander

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spr= ing

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
--
<= div dir=3D"ltr">

Gyan= =C2=A0 Mishra

Network Engineering & Technology= =C2=A0

Verizon=C2=A0

Silver Spring, MD 20= 904

Phone: 301 502-1347

<= font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.= com



--000000000000ba8f37059f5ad30a-- From nobody Mon Feb 24 15:39:54 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AE743A1598 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 15:39:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.999, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id URh5mDnyW7Dq for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 15:39:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x229.google.com (mail-oi1-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5228B3A1595 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 15:39:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x229.google.com with SMTP id p125so10744795oif.10 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 15:39:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Mk6gs7bCWqCL/0R8PAIJwN2GKXoqEe4euV8oRVRtFTs=; b=m0US02QSIIAVuKkiRsfbM7za8foR2w3IIZcPNnB5Rq2AAtd9l8E6/jt+83mp8OnqMe bpBiK8gP/v1yOoKyOaT3cPv1Wo0x8KE3K0y7sjiFvYl9o5UJycgG8h7nxfqVVA71e8P1 N8kFJnJWKCFjBzkLULC/TB/g9H9yn8d6E+9RW60xQxcqBtEcFMuQ6A4TTqh3XZsERydU Il4FKpC9BpgIRW6wEE0u1u4a16AmCMFModzGRbPUd2JbLOtukfItG4y0nppnvdQHa4ga kEChaisHGZnY3W/yIciVOHyxHNII8xdU3LRdcD+1bRoUtdVoCUIMLKrDVKJNHBTinsG2 r8IQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Mk6gs7bCWqCL/0R8PAIJwN2GKXoqEe4euV8oRVRtFTs=; b=CEpUh8Gkjy8kejY2mCpeeZuCAOUxV9RahsZODrtU40RPv43RWDrq/opoGK6NTYIU7E CmCu25I0vmkaf6OWEe+8iWx+ncwntO3Y9ca8mcK5YaZi0ajmrv17cD97MHXePx9+mjLf jtql24QSLBxXqySRstdVOzQnMAiYMs9j3ZRoOeJT5CSjJkud1YtIhnrpgJkuNelFuvyJ vMMPt+Bk1AG9N7U5DC4ssq3+Qz3F1TMoNh9NNiOP+TKXQXS6AYCX0D8emjn0hICjKHfY pHfKPxB7fKHa4LzpBQalnCG00ER1ftaSEE2VUqoPt5i6AYj0H6dl4h+n2BnA8HJ60IX5 3gqw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVFNVNuH/x2JAkqNERsUwiYRIALWyi2+v0c0sIYL7Nys489FHw/ X4iBtQDdNgF4lQaVjFpMKloX9h2fNw9nV9J9qg7yY3Rv X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxGqrZpnSnXVw2gdDOWDhNewX6QwR8kvYXWlyMJfoFRxw3zAKancg3NJX1rcPXb52c60kyOvHCqPouGCcz2fLE= X-Received: by 2002:aca:4306:: with SMTP id q6mr1279580oia.54.1582587590305; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 15:39:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <158248836511.1031.1350509839394231473@ietfa.amsl.com> <7481061F-75A5-4E4D-80AE-40E1F933E94A@cisco.com> <1BB7ED35-98EC-4A73-92A3-AD043D462CF7@steffann.nl> In-Reply-To: From: Mark Smith Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 10:39:23 +1100 Message-ID: To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" Cc: Ron Bonica , SPRING WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 23:39:53 -0000 On Tue, 25 Feb 2020 at 09:38, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote: > > Ron, > > > > This is the 5th time that we have this discussion in the past five months= . > > > > I consider those three questions as closed based on the previous discussi= on. > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/yRkDJlXd71k0VUqagM3D77vYcFI/ > > Ron isn't the only arbiter that you and the SPRING WG have to satisfy. If the discussion has come up 5 times in the past 5 months, yet hasn't been resolved, then I think it says SPRING aren't trying to act in good faith to attempt to comply with another IETF working group's widely deployed, full Internet Standard protocol, one of only 92 Internet Standards since 1969. I'm reminded of when the ITU did something similar to the IETF. I think it is now one IETF WG doing a similar thing to another. RFC5704, "Uncoordinated Protocol Development Considered Harmful" https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5704 s/SDO/IETF WG/gc "In particular, the IAB considers it an essential principle of the protocol development process that only one SDO maintains design authority for a given protocol, with that SDO having ultimate authority over the allocation of protocol parameter code-points and over defining the intended semantics, interpretation, and actions associated with those code- points." SPRING are also ignoring its own charter: "SPRING WG should avoid modification to existing data planes that would make them incompatible with existing deployments. Where possible, existing control and management plane protocols must be used within existing architectures to implement the SPRING function." PSP is not required, there are existing functional equivalents that are compatible with existing deployments. (I have no affiliation with any vendors, I fight for the users.) > > Cheers, > > Pablo. > > > > From: Ron Bonica > Date: Monday, 24 February 2020 at 16:27 > To: Andrew Alston , Mark Smith , Sander Steffann > Cc: SPRING WG , "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" > Subject: RE: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programm= ing-10.txt > > > > Folks, > > > > We may need to ask the following questions: > > > > 1) Does PSP violate letter of RFC 8200? > > 2) Does PSP violate the spirit of RFC 8200? > > 3) Is PSP a good idea? > > > > The 6man WG, and not SPRING, should answer the first two questions. So I = will avoid them an explore the third. > > > > At first glance, PSP adds no value. Once Segments Left has been decrement= ed to 0, the Routing header becomes a NOOP. So why bother to remove it? I s= ee the following arguments: > > > > 1) To save bandwidth between the penultimate and ultimate segment en= dpoints. > > 2) To unburden the ultimate segment endpoint from the task of proces= sing the SRH > > 3) To unburden the ultimate segment endpoint from the task of removi= ng the SRH > > > > The first argument is weak. Routing headers should not be so large that t= he bandwidth they consume is an issue. > > > > The second argument is also weak. Once the ultimate segment endpoint has = examined the Segments Left field, it can ignore the SRH. The ultimate segme= nt endpoint must be SRv6-aware, because it must process the SID in the IPv6= destination address field. Given that the ultimate segment endpoint is SRv= 6 aware, it should be able to process the SRH on the fast path. > > > > The third argument is even weaker. The ultimate segment endpoint: > > - Has to remove the IPv6 tunnel header, anyway > > - Being closer to the edge, may be less heavily loaded than the = penultimate segment endpoint. > > > > Can anyone articulate a better justification for PSP? If not, why test th= e limits of RFC 8200 over it? > > > > = Ron > > > > > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > From: spring On Behalf Of Andrew Alston > Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 5:06 AM > To: Mark Smith ; Sander Steffann > Cc: SPRING WG ; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) > Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programm= ing-10.txt > > > > I agree with the sentiments expressed below > > > > Andrew > > > > > > From: spring On Behalf Of Mark Smith > Sent: Monday, 24 February 2020 00:50 > To: Sander Steffann > Cc: SPRING WG ; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) > Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programm= ing-10.txt > > > > > > On Mon, 24 Feb 2020, 07:47 Sander Steffann, wrote: > > Hi, > > > We have published a new update to draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-progra= mming. This revision simplifies the counters as per [1], clarifies the uppe= r layer header processing as per [2] and removes the reference to the OAM d= raft [3]. > > I still oppose the segment popping flavours in section 4.16 without updat= ing RFC8200. > > > > I would expect that defying Internet Standard 86/RFC8200 means this ID ne= eds to have Experimental rather than Standards Track status. > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > Sander > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring From nobody Tue Feb 25 07:16:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D3993A0EBC for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 07:16:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: 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Received: from MWHPR11MB1374.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:300:24::8) by MWHPR11MB1342.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:300:1e::22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2750.21; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 15:16:40 +0000 Received: from MWHPR11MB1374.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::e481:a191:e31:f948]) by MWHPR11MB1374.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::e481:a191:e31:f948%12]) with mapi id 15.20.2750.021; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 15:16:40 +0000 From: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" To: Gyan Mishra CC: SPRING WG Thread-Topic: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt Thread-Index: AQHV6oS5gvC3ooCmRkC/VJ3PjyDVFqgpRl6A///5WICAABGFAIAAzduAgABZh4CAAIlfgP///yEAgAEXwwA= Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 15:16:40 +0000 Message-ID: <97141983-EDF7-4C1E-A8F1-4ADCD345BC5A@cisco.com> References: <158248836511.1031.1350509839394231473@ietfa.amsl.com> <7481061F-75A5-4E4D-80AE-40E1F933E94A@cisco.com> 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DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca ([fe80::75af:23bf:bdc5:ef10]) by DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca ([fe80::75af:23bf:bdc5:ef10%22]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.003; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 10:28:01 -0500 From: "Voyer, Daniel" To: Mark Smith , "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" CC: Ron Bonica , SPRING WG Thread-Topic: [EXT]Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt Thread-Index: AQHV6voas7puGCHLkkGRceRvJkevYqgqy4SAgAB4noCAABEEgIAAtTkA Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 15:28:00 +0000 Message-ID: References: <158248836511.1031.1350509839394231473@ietfa.amsl.com> <7481061F-75A5-4E4D-80AE-40E1F933E94A@cisco.com> <1BB7ED35-98EC-4A73-92A3-AD043D462CF7@steffann.nl> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.22.0.200209 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.24.25.3] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: 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15.20.2750.021; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 15:53:48 +0000 From: Alexander Vainshtein To: Yimin Shen CC: "rtgwg@ietf.org" , Huaimo Chen , "spring@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Mail regarding draft-hu-rtgwg-srv6-egress-protection Thread-Index: AQHV6Tj/QTh4u6ex9kyPrxr+4lY6AKgnDNKAgAGQgwCAAZY4gIABuAhg//+9LYCAAFo+4A== Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 15:53:48 +0000 Message-ID: References: <15DAD938-D0E1-4BB0-BE20-40602495474A@juniper.net> <117E28AC-1F96-4C69-B861-70881E1A5E1F@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.234.241.1] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: b3fcf977-784d-4419-c090-08d7ba0ae740 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM0PR0302MB3410: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8273; x-forefront-prvs: 0324C2C0E2 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; 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a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=EkXzZIyYXd0csSubT4X3lX2b2cgFKFPBkR65Z+MEBJc=; b=QRRfKsgUBO2tuLYHlWvz8P4Ym8bg1UeAJeO6FbEJyilb/etRMCa06kTbr0U0B60Rvy DyKvpRg3lYVlOxGML2ie3jFlS43wueK6l1vfaASmZanRxS27BDmk199Kszj3WLSPR06K +ZvnPB7bMYd8FLqHNF6tft6iRyv0awOtsolyP+F96FYyMQfOumYdOGP9A2VZOfPHMBgA cMx0mSMKzCWd2DcEX/HYgk0zDf9+icvYA0LZj1XYoQ88e9cjUKuZx0UrQLSdDr0lv1Mr WtZOLUz2ld9V+RxMo68iW9Sluh1AwXo+NVzT6fLOk8iY+kEpt7i8yQgOcbpodYi7l2Nf glHA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=EkXzZIyYXd0csSubT4X3lX2b2cgFKFPBkR65Z+MEBJc=; b=oE4qV+fNsCFxv3LlBtxL7lFYIedat6/XelBun0dYK5dSoMrfjAlgV1AWfhPEqzbln4 wRx5R3fQB41uku6yS+vieLVuy+RVwhe3nbA6OWEtZ38lC52AqOuksUHfs5Yhy63TODcn 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Halpern" , "spring@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 00:31:11 -0000 Hi Pablo, On Sat, 21 Dec 2019 at 04:38, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote: > > Hi Ron, > > I guess we are making some progress here but going in some circles. So fa= r we have moved from =E2=80=9Cthis violates RFC8200=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Cth= ere are no use-cases or benefits=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Cthis is complex for a= n ASIC=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Cwhat is the benefit again=E2=80=9D and now back= to =E2=80=9Cthis is complex for an ASIC=E2=80=9D. > As far as I know, the next header field in both the IPv6 fixed header and in extension headers is immutable while the packet is travelling within the network, as is the payload length field in the IPv6 base fixed header. Nothing in RFC 8200 modifies those fields while the packet is in flight between the packet's original source and final destination, nor is there anything in RFC 8200 that specifies how to do those modifications and any other discussion about the consequences and considerations when doing so. The IPsec AH header is providing integrity checking over fields in the IPv6 packet that shouldn't be being modified while the packet is within the network. What is and isn't protected by AH can be seen to be a specification of what processing on a packet can and cannot occur while it is in flight across the network towards its final destination. Therefore, AH is really a quality assurance mechanism for the network packet processing that RFC 8200 specifies. The processing of the packet by the network with or without the use of AH should be the same. AH should really only be necessary if there is a belief that the network is likely not to be processing packets in accordance to RFC 8200, either accidentally or intentionally. Per RFC4302 (IPsec AH), the following section explicitly states which fields in the IPv6 header are immutable and are to be protected by AH: 3.3.3.1.2. ICV Computation for IPv6 3.3.3.1.2.1. Base Header Fields The IPv6 base header fields are classified as follows: Immutable Version Payload Length Next Header Source Address Destination Address (without Routing Extension Header) Mutable but predictable Destination Address (with Routing Extension Header) Mutable (zeroed prior to ICV calculation) DSCP (6 bits, see RFC2474 [NBBB98]) ECN (2 bits, see RFC3168 [RFB01]) Flow Label (*) Hop Limit (*) The flow label described in AHv1 was mutable, and in RFC 2460 [DH98] was potentially mutable. To retain compatibility with existing AH implementations, the flow label is not included in the ICV in AHv2. > As for how easy or not something is, the PSP behavior has been implemente= d and deployed (running code). The use-cases have been described and positi= vely reinforced by operators. I don't think there is any further explanatio= n to provide. > "Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should." How much troubleshooting experience have they had with this? I think a very important factor is how easy something is to troubleshoot - how obvious is the mechanism works; is the mechanism consistent with existing behaviours i.e. the principle of least surprise (removing EHs at an intermediary hop certainly isn't in IPv6, even if the intermediary hop as the packet's current DA); when it inevitably fails, how obvious is it where the fault is likely to be; and how quickly can a typical fault be rectified. Regards, Mark. > Happy Holidays, > Pablo. > > > =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message----- > From: Ron Bonica > Date: Tuesday, 17 December 2019 at 16:06 > To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" , "Joel M. Halpern" = , "spring@ietf.org" > Subject: RE: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea > > Pablo, > > In your message below, are you arguing that it is easier for the penu= ltimate node to remove the SRH than it is for the ultimate node to ignore i= t? I think that would be a stretch. > > = Ron > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) > Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2019 4:50 AM > To: Ron Bonica ; Joel M. Halpern ; spring@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea > > Ron, > > What is the "price paid by the penultimate segment"? All the current = implementations do this at linerate with no performance degradation as I ha= ve explained in my email before. > > There is substantial benefit. Four operators have deployed PSP, which= proves the benefit. > It enables new use-cases that have been provided by other members in = the list. [1], [2] and [5]. > From operational perspective it is not complex as explained in [3]. > Operators have expressed their value in [4] and [5]. > > [1].- https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/m= sg/spring/wTLJQkzC6xwSNPbhB84VH0mLXx0__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6R= iBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IcdXeBzk_$ > [2].- https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/m= sg/spring/V0ZpjVLSVZxHaBwecXFxqJjlg_c__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6R= iBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IcU9bihBc$ > [3].- https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/m= sg/spring/ssobwemrPz0uEZjvRCZP1e4l_l0__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6R= iBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4Icc_wo902$ > [4].- https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/m= sg/spring/KXCBHT8Tpy17S5BsJXLBS35yZbk__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6R= iBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IcRXo_q-1$ > [5].- https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/m= sg/spring/ErcErN39RIlzkL5SKNVAeEWpnAI__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6R= iBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IceGPpSab$ > > Cheers, > Pablo. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Bonica > Date: Thursday, 12 December 2019 at 21:50 > To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" , "Joel M. Halpe= rn" , "spring@ietf.org" > Subject: RE: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea > > Pablo, > > I am not convinced the benefit derived by the ultimate segment ju= stifies the price paid by the penultimate segment. Specifically, > > - the ultimate segment benefits because it doesn't have to skip o= ver the SRH with SL =3D=3D 0 > - in order for the ultimate segment to derive this benefit, the p= enultimate segment needs to remove bytes from the middle of the packet and = update two fields in the IPv6 header > > As Joel said, we typically don't add options (i.e., complexity) t= o a specification unless there is substantial benefit. > > Ron > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > -----Original Message----- > From: spring On Behalf Of Pablo Camaril= lo (pcamaril) > Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2019 3:12 PM > To: Joel M. Halpern ; spring@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea > > Joel, > > 1.- The use-case for PSP has already been provided at the mailer.= There are scenarios where it provides benefits to operators. > > 2.- The PSP behavior is optional. It is up to the operator in his= deployment to decide whether to enable it or not at one particular router. > Similarly, a vendor may decide not to implement it. The PSP behav= ior has been implemented by several vendors and deployed (see the srv6 depl= oyment draft). > > 3.- A network may have PSP enabled at some nodes and not at other= s. Everything is still interoperable and works fine. > > 4.- PSP is not a complex operation in hardware (doable at linerat= e on existing merchant silicon). > Example: It has been implemented and deployed on Broadcom J/J+. I= f I recall correctly Broadcom Jericho+ started shipping in March 2016! PSP = is supported on this platform at linerate with no performance degradation (= neither PPPS nor BW). > Given that this is doable in a platform from more than 3 years ag= o, I fail to see how you need "very special provision" to do this. > > Is it really something that horrible to provide freedom of choice= to the operators deploying? > > In summary, it can be implemented without any burden in hardware = and deployment experience prove this is beneficial to operators. > > Thanks, > Pablo. > > -----Original Message----- > From: spring on behalf of "Joel M. Halp= ern" > Date: Wednesday, 11 December 2019 at 03:55 > To: "spring@ietf.org" > Subject: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea > > For purposes of this thread, even if you think PSP violates R= FC 8200, > let us assume that it is legal. > > As I understand it, the PSP situation is: > o the packet arrives at the place (let's not argue about whet= her SIDs > are locators) identified by the SID in the destination addres= s field > o that SID is the next to last SID in the SID list > o that sid is marked as / known to be PSP > o at the intended place in the processing pseudocode, the las= t (first) > entry in the SRH is copied into the destination IPv6 address = field of > the packet > -> The SRH being used is then removed from the packet. > > In order to evaluate whether this is a good idea, we have to = have some > idea of the benefit. It may be that I am missing some of the= benefit, > and I would appreciate clarification. > As far as I can tell, the benefit of this removal is that in = exchange > for this node doing the work of removing the SRH, the final n= ode in the > SRH does not have to process the SRH at all, as it has been r= emoved. > > I have trouble seeing how that work tradeoff can be beneficia= l. > Removing bytes from the middle of a packet is a complex opera= tion. > Doing so in Silicon (we expect this to be done in the fast pa= th of > significant forwarders as I understand it) requires very spec= ial > provision. Even in software, removing bytes from the middle = of a packet > requires somewhere between some and a lot of extra work. It = is > distinctly NOT free. > > In contrast, we have assumed that the work of processing SRH = itself is > tractable, since otherwise all of SRv6 would be problematic. = So why is > this necessary. > > Yours, > Joel > > PS: Note that both the MPLS case and the encapsulation case a= re very > different in that the material being removed is at the front = of the IP > packet. Pop or prepend are MUCH easier than middle-removal (= or > middle-insertion). > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list= info/spring__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Uvd5DRUIJlsmob5a7r4JRgMMbZcE60JOPIW3K2MubKpIuKX= A1r78vsFpWAHa8hW2$ > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo= /spring__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Uvd5DRUIJlsmob5a7r4JRgMMbZcE60JOPIW3K2MubKpIuKXA1r7= 8vsFpWAHa8hW2$ > > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring From nobody Tue Feb 25 16:54:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 825CD3A0A0B; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 16:54:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m-BMbF2kGuBs; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 16:54:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x129.google.com (mail-lf1-x129.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::129]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47DB63A0A0A; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 16:54:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x129.google.com with SMTP id 83so611063lfh.9; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 16:54:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=3HA6wl/1fNi5yA3LX/Xu8Fpp+7EJymDa9EuIkjwU2tI=; b=Zs5AtHmeFuYqB1sI8P48L0n33Z+BCc6elH3Q88o4wcux698cD43DNppo6+NtOpOWQs 9NfIn0pTDUXBw7Gpc79aNie+kB6TzkA++chSr1SoxFAy/QgBCgKub1VquWBA+4LC/w5Q 5au4XuA7bMH/jGubSYnUwYl2KVTOoM0dVNeliwzKcCskAK7Md6LAQZUfjG2tkKMsuJhs yyMPXpGooaEz+WBKJOpJ8yjk1CITdoEWh4T5kWTSrl3dNvHaOJijSMnQzaWLyGfa9PYZ x9Ph3WYLPNAYkj0J1lsjKLBFoLVvpNGoVpGgKwS1BRtDJELanjgz7qou49YzVgaH9cCF Vunw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=3HA6wl/1fNi5yA3LX/Xu8Fpp+7EJymDa9EuIkjwU2tI=; b=LllNJAY0MMXjk6BCFTgguS58EWicQ3K+pgGjniM60W/Q5Z2iB43qu1UmQQEKBqHH1J njKMojzCtWg9VHEFrEjdzpeI4ooI+4bpKXQKlge5T3YlW5fYRzive6JhAahf9Dr3uPW0 JL8AmTrm82Pnnj/f/7EXBwGfBs0Lf/IyDI0GOA6diuo3sA+HognLe0jGJXhLdg7vscak gpadB3AdrSmbck2GedSBzWqvBrHKwdhyj8rKHEgIgHCngwxV9xRRpLv0q+rP5brl1KMZ yWbhY2lJLDvxpVVjFVZLrRgSqIUF1NQo7k8WFilf5WTrbnK9DjiblRpJt46wVk3QYfem vl/A== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWO7WSU4+T/pOe2NbtMPXhWo30eHivaAgBg3p4Z9881SpqtGNRI v+z4J7tk6/5DoCHY2M4Gf3sPC4PIbge6KxhZL2s= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwjUdQqafJwkZ63S/JJNO2LLlHjMS3gg8eQjspU95S4fRfX9XIYaS1QFw0MULDNodnbqRiqhMYuqtqAp+dMBTc= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:52a2:: with SMTP id r2mr804160lfm.33.1582678446263; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 16:54:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <613EC60C-C81D-4CF1-9CBF-4135571CCDF6@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <613EC60C-C81D-4CF1-9CBF-4135571CCDF6@cisco.com> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 16:53:54 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" Cc: Ole Troan , SPRING WG , 6man WG , 6man Chairs <6man-chairs@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000955178059f700ab1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] 6man w.g. last call for X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 00:54:12 -0000 --000000000000955178059f700ab1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Zafar, et al., I apologize for the unintended confusion but when I've said that I'll review the updates I was under the impression (self-imposed) that a new version has been published already. I'll be glad to review the updates in the working version and share my notes if you can kindly send it my way. Or I can wait for it to be published. Let me know what works for you best. Regards, Greg On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 5:07 PM Zafar Ali (zali) wrote: > Hi Greg, > > > > I went back to your comments to verify the latest version in the GitHub > addresses them (as marked by [ZA]). > > This is with the exception of your question on handling of BFD control > packets or STAMP test packets. Please see [ZA2] for the specifics. > > > > One thing that stands out from your review comments is that we need a > sub-section on the illustration on the use of O-bit. We are in the proces= s > of adding the O-bit usage illustration. Please see [ZA2] for more details= . > > > > Many thanks for taking an offline call, earlier. I will reach-out to you > again to discuss your comments. > > > > Thanks > > > > Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar > > > > *From: *"Zafar Ali (zali)" > *Date: *Wednesday, December 18, 2019 at 7:19 PM > *To: *Greg Mirsky , Ole Troan > > *Cc: *SPRING WG , 6man WG , 6man Chairs < > 6man-chairs@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" > *Subject: *Re: [spring] 6man w.g. last call for > > > > > Hi Greg, > > > > Many thanks for your detailed comments. Much appreciated. > > > > Please see comments in-line and how the new version addresses your > comments. > > I also look forward to our offline discussion on Friday. > > > > Please note we have been also maintaining the latest version of the draft > in the 6man-Github. > > > > Thanks > > > > Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar > > > > *From: *spring on behalf of Greg Mirsky < > gregimirsky@gmail.com> > *Date: *Thursday, December 5, 2019 at 5:22 PM > *To: *Ole Troan > *Cc: *SPRING WG , 6man WG , 6man Chairs < > 6man-chairs@ietf.org> > *Subject: *Re: [spring] 6man w.g. last call for > > > > > Dear Authors, et al., > > please find my comments, as WG LC comments, questions to this document > below. > > - The Abstract and Introduction describe the document as "defines > building blocks for Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) = in > Segment Routing Networks with IPv6 Dataplane (SRv6)". I believe it wou= ld be > helpful to demonstrate that the existing mechanisms used in IPv6 to > demultiplex and realize OAM functions, e.g., using the well-known > destination UDP port number, are not sufficient and require the > introduction of new methods, e.g., O bit in SRH. > > [ZA2] We are adding illustration on the use of the o-bit. > > [ZA] If you look at section 4 of the draft, it explains how existing > probing mechanisms are used and why extensions are needed. In the new > revision posted, we have added additional information on why the O-bit in > SRH is defined (for telemetry purpose). Please have a look at the latest > revision as we have tried to address your comment. > > - This document introduces the O-flag into SRH as the building block > for OAM in SR networks with IPv6 data plane. It appears that the funct= ions > that are realized using the O-flag are already supported by the existi= ng > OAM protocols that enable fault management (e.g., variations of Echo > Request/Reply, BFD) and performance monitoring (e.g., STAMP). > > [ZA2] We are adding illustration on the use of the o-bit. > > [ZA] The O-bit is for telemetry use. In the new revision posted, we have > added additional normative text on O-bit processing to clarify this point= . > Please have a look at the latest revision. > > - Also, the use of the new "building block for OAM" in SRv6 splits the > SR OAM suit into two functionally separate toolsets - one for SR-MPLS = and > another for SRv6. > > [ZA] SRv6 uses IPv6 data plane and hence applicability of the IPv6 OAM > tools is discussed. > > - The document defines the support of O-flag as OPTIONAL. In that > case, what is the benefit of advertising the support of O-flag by an S= R > node (even though the advertisement itself is optional)? > > [ZA] To let the other nodes/ controller know if the O-bit is supported by > a local node. > > - The document uses the term "accurate timestamp" without the > discussion or definition of what level of accuracy is required or expe= cted, > methods to acquire an accurate timestamp, format(s) that must or may b= e > used to record a timestamp, and what are possible implications of not > providing an accurate timestamp. > > [ZA] We have addressed this comment by replacing =E2=80=9Caccurate=E2=80= =9D with =E2=80=9Ca=E2=80=9D. It > is really up to the local implementation and draft does not add any > requirements. > > - The document asserts that to support "Many scenarios require punting > of SRv6 OAM packets at the desired nodes in the network" can be done o= nly > with using OAM Endpoint with Punt function. I believe that TTL/Hop Cou= nt > Expired had been used successfully to achieve the same result. > > [ZA] Yes, and tracerouting is done using TTL/ HC. Please see section 4. > > - what is the apparent need to introduce functional duplication to > already existing OAM technique? How a packet would be processed if bo= th > O-flag and the OAM SID End.OP are present (the specification only > recommends setting O-flag to 0 when End.OP SID is present)? > > [ZA] Good point. The restriction really does not exist and the new > version corrects the text. > > - Section 3.4 introduces function OAM Endpoint with Timestamp and > Punt. At the same time, processing the O-flag, defined, as: > > a. Make a copy of the packet. > b. Send the copied packet, along with an accurate timestamp > > Is the difference in making or not making a local copy significant enough > to have two mechanisms to achieve essentially the same result? How a pack= et > will be processed if both O-flag and the OAM SID End.OTP are present (the > specification only recommends to set O-flag to 0 when END.OTP SID is > present) ? > > > > [ZA] Good point. The restriction really does not exist and the new > version corrects the text. > > > - Section 3.5 states that: > > SRH TLV plays an important role in carrying OAM and Performance > > Management (PM) metadata. > > I cannot find any other text that illustrates how SRH TLV plays any role > in FM and/or PM OAM. > > > > [ZA] Indeed, the current draft does not define any TLV for OAM purposes. > The section was added as future drafts may define OAM TLVs. > > However, based on your comments, the section has been removed in the new > revision. > > > - It is stated in Section 4: > > This section describes how OAM mechanisms can be implemented using > the OAM building blocks described in the previous section. > > As this is the Standard document, using the normative language would be > very much desirable. Then it would be clearer whether the use of not only > O-flag but of OAM SIDs as well is optional or mandatory. > > > > [ZA] Based on your comment, modified the text in the document to add > normative language. Specifically: > > o In the new revision, we have added normative text at the beginning > of 3.1.1 where O-bit is defined. > > o Sections 3.3 and 3.4 adds normative texts for OAM SIDs. > > o 4.1.2 and 4.2.2 further adds additional normative text for Ping and > traceroute use-cases, respectively. > > > > > - I've noticed that functions used as an example in the document are > all part of active OAM functions. At the same time, the defined proces= sing > of the O-flag is very much similar to the operation of in-situ OAM. Bu= t I > don't find any reference to in-situ OAM mechanism, nor discussion of > whether both can be used in combination or are mutually exclusive. > > [ZA] Based on your comment, we have removed the relevant section. > > - In Section 4.1.2 the identification of an OAM (active OAM or some > other kind of OAM) packet defined as: > > The OAM packets are identified either by setting the O-flag in SRH or > > by inserting the END.OP/ END.OTP SIDs at an appropriate place in the > > SRH. > > Is the use of any of these methods required for any OAM? If that is the > case, then the normative language must be used. Also, is it required to u= se > any of these methods for, for example, BFD control packets or STAMP test > packets? Isn't using assigned by IANA port number sufficient to identify > active IP OAM packets? Wouldn't the same be applicable in SRv6 OAM? > > > > [ZA2] You are right that IANA assigned port number should be sufficient t= o > identify active OAM packets. In order to process the OAM packets targeted > to a SID, based on a local configuration, the net-pgm needs to allow > processing of the OAM packets. What we need is a clarification in the > net-pgm draft for the Upper Layer Processing. I=E2=80=99ve added NET-PGM = editors > (Spring is already CC=E2=80=99ed) to request this change. > > > > [ZA] Normative language has been added to address your comment. 4.1.2 and > 4.2.2 further adds additional normative text for Ping and traceroute > use-cases, respectively. > > > - I have a question on how a local node selects an application that is > to receive a punted packet (whether marked by O-flag that includes one= of > OAM SIDs)? The document provides examples where the destination is eit= her > ICMPv6 or a traceroute (?) process. Is that an exhaustive list? > > [ZA] The list is not exhaustive. Furthermore, O-bit is for telemetry use. > > > > I greatly appreciate your kind consideration and am looking forward to th= e > productive discussion. > > > > [ZA] Likewise, many thanks for your comments. > > > > Thanks > > > > Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 3:53 PM Ole Troan > wrote: > > Hello, > > As agreed in the working group session in Singapore, this message start= s > a new two week 6MAN Working Group Last Call on advancing: > > Title : Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) in Segment > Routing Networks with IPv6 Data plane (SRv6) > Author : Z. Ali, C. Filsfils, S. Matsushima, D. Voyer, M.. Chen > Filename : draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam-02 > Pages : 23 > Date : 2019-11-20 > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam/ > > as a Proposed Standard. > > Substantive comments and statements of support for publishing this > document should be directed to the mailing list. > Editorial suggestions can be sent to the author. This last call will end > on the 18th of December 2019. > > To improve document quality and ensure that bugs are caught as early as > possible, we would require at least > two reviewers to do a complete review of the document. Please let the > chairs know if you are willing to be a reviewer. > > The last call will be forwarded to the spring working group, with > discussion directed to the ipv6 list. > > Thanks, > Bob & Ole, 6man co-chairs > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > --000000000000955178059f700ab1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Zafar, et al.,
I apologize for the unintended confu= sion but when I've said that I'll review the updates I was under th= e impression (self-imposed) that a new version has been published already. = I'll be glad to review the updates in the working version and share my = notes if you can kindly send it my way. Or I can wait for it to be publishe= d. Let me know what works for you best.

Regards,
Greg

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 5:07 PM Zafar Ali (zali) <zali@cisco.com> wrote:

Hi Greg,

=C2=A0

I went back to your comments to verify the latest ve= rsion in the GitHub addresses them (as marked by [ZA]).

This is with the exception of your question on handl= ing of BFD control packets or STAMP test packets. Please see [ZA2] for the = specifics.

=C2=A0

One thing that stands out from your review comments = is that we need a sub-section on the illustration on the use of O-bit. We a= re in the process of adding the O-bit usage illustration. Please see [ZA2] = for more details.

=C2=A0

Many thanks for taking an offline call, earlier. I w= ill reach-out to you again to discuss your comments.

=C2=A0

Thanks

=C2=A0

Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar

=C2=A0

From: = "Zafar Ali (zali= )" <zali@cisco.= com>
Date: Wednesday, December 18, 2019 at 7:19 PM
To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>, 6man Chairs <6man-chairs@ietf.org>, "Z= afar Ali (zali)" <zali@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-sp= ring-srv6-oam>

=C2=A0

Hi Greg,

=C2=A0

Many thanks for your detailed comments. Much appreci= ated.

=C2=A0

Please see comments in-line and how the new version = addresses your comments. =C2=A0

I also look forward to o= ur offline discussion on Friday.

=C2=A0<= /u>

Please note we have been= also maintaining the latest version of the draft in the 6man-Github.

=C2=A0<= /u>

Thanks

=C2=A0

Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar

=C2=A0

From: = spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org<= /a>> on behalf of Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Thursday, December 5, 2019 at 5:22 PM
To: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>, 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>, 6man Chairs <6man-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] 6man w.g. last call for <draft-ietf-6man-sp= ring-srv6-oam>

=C2=A0

Dear Authors, et al.,

please find my comments, as WG LC comments, question= s to this document below.

  • The Abstract and Introduction describe the document as "defines buildi= ng blocks for Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OAM) in Segment = Routing Networks with IPv6 Dataplane (SRv6)". I believe it would be he= lpful to demonstrate that the existing mechanisms used in IPv6 to demultiplex and realize OAM functions, e.g., using the wel= l-known destination UDP port number, are not sufficient and require the int= roduction of new methods, e.g., O bit in SRH.

[ZA2] We are adding illustration on the use of the o= -bit.

[ZA] If you look at section 4 of the draft, it expla= ins how existing probing mechanisms are used and why extensions are needed.= In the new revision posted, we have added additional information on why the O-bit in SRH is defined (for telemetry purpose). Pl= ease have a look at the latest revision as we have tried to address your co= mment.

  • This document introduces the O-flag into SRH as the building block for OAM = in SR networks with IPv6 data plane. It appears that the functions that are= realized using the O-flag are already supported by the existing OAM protoc= ols that enable fault management (e.g., variations of Echo Request/Reply, BFD) and performance monitoring (= e.g., STAMP).

[ZA2] We are adding illustration on the use of the o= -bit.

[ZA] The O-bit is for telemetry use. In the new revi= sion posted, we have added additional normative text on O-bit processing to= clarify this point.=C2=A0 Please have a look at the latest revision.

  • Also, the use of the new "building block for OAM" in SRv6 splits = the SR OAM suit into two functionally separate toolsets - one for SR-MPLS a= nd another for SRv6.

[ZA] SRv6 uses IPv6 data plane and hence applicabili= ty of the IPv6 OAM tools is discussed.

  • The document defines the support of O-flag as OPTIONAL. In that case, what = is the benefit of advertising the support of O-flag by an SR node (even tho= ugh the advertisement itself is optional)?

[ZA] To let the other nodes/ controller know if the = O-bit is supported by a local node.

  • The document uses the term "accurate timestamp" without the discu= ssion or definition of what level of accuracy is required or expected, meth= ods to acquire an accurate timestamp, format(s) that must or may be used to= record a timestamp, and what are possible implications of not providing an accurate timestamp.

    • [ZA] We have addressed this comment by replacing =E2= =80=9Caccurate=E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9Ca=E2=80=9D. It is really up to the lo= cal implementation and draft does not add any requirements.

    • The document asserts that to support "Many scenarios require punting o= f SRv6 OAM packets at the desired nodes in the network" can be done on= ly with using=C2=A0OAM Endpoint with Punt function. I believe that TTL/Hop = Count Expired had been used successfully to achieve the same result.

    [ZA] Yes, and tracerouting is done using TTL/ HC. Pl= ease see section 4.

    • what is the apparent need to introduce functional duplication to already ex= isting OAM technique?=C2=A0 How a packet would be processed if both O-flag = and the OAM SID End.OP are present (the specification only recommends setti= ng O-flag to 0 when End.OP SID is present)?

    [ZA] Good point. The res= triction really does not exist and the new version corrects the text.

    • Section 3.4 introduces function=C2=A0OAM Endpoint with Timestamp and Punt. = At the same time, processing the O-flag, defined, as:

      • =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 a. Make a = copy of the packet.
      =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 b. Send the copied packet, along = with an accurate timestamp

Is the difference in making or not making a local co= py significant enough to have two mechanisms to achieve essentially the sam= e result? How a packet will be processed if both O-flag and the OAM SID End= .OTP are present (the specification only recommends to set O-flag to 0 when END.OTP SID is present) ?

=C2=A0

[ZA] Good point. The res= triction really does not exist and the new version corrects the text.

  • Section 3.5 states that:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0SRH TLV plays an important role in carr= ying OAM and Performance

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Management (PM) metadata.=

I cannot find any other text that illustrates how SR= H TLV plays any role in FM and/or PM OAM.

=C2=A0

[ZA] Indeed, the current draft does not define any T= LV for OAM purposes. The section was added as future drafts may define OAM = TLVs.

However, based on your comments, the section has bee= n removed in the new revision.

  • It is stated in Section 4:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0This section describes how OAM mechanis= ms can be implemented using
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the OAM building blocks described in the previous section.<= /u>

As this is the Standard document, using the normativ= e language would be very much desirable. Then it would be clearer whether t= he use of not only O-flag but of OAM SIDs as well is optional or mandatory.=

=C2=A0

[ZA] Based on your comment, modified the text in the= document to add normative language. Specifically: =C2=A0<= /u>

<= span>o=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 In the new revision, we have added normative text at the beginning of= 3.1.1 where O-bit is defined.

<= span>o=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 Sections 3.3 and 3.4 adds normative texts for OAM SIDs.=

<= span>o=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 4.1.2 and 4.2.2 further adds additional normative text for Ping and t= raceroute use-cases, respectively.

=C2=A0

  • I've noticed that functions used as an example in the document are all = part of active OAM functions. At the same time, the defined processing of t= he O-flag is very much similar to the operation of in-situ OAM. But I don&#= 39;t find any reference to in-situ OAM mechanism, nor discussion of whether both can be used in combination or are mutually = exclusive.

[ZA] Based on your comment, we have removed the rele= vant section.

  • In Section 4.1.2 the identification of an OAM (active OAM or some other kin= d of OAM) packet defined as:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The OAM packets are identified either b= y setting the O-flag in SRH or

=C2=A0 =C2=A0by inserting the END.OP/ END.OTP SIDs a= t an appropriate place in the

=C2=A0 =C2=A0SRH.

Is the use of any of these methods required for any = OAM? If that is the case, then the normative language must be used. Also, i= s it required to use any of these methods for, for example, BFD control pac= kets or STAMP test packets? Isn't using assigned by IANA port number sufficient to identify active IP OAM pa= ckets? Wouldn't the same be applicable in SRv6 OAM?

=C2=A0

[ZA2] You are right that IANA assigned port number s= hould be sufficient to identify active OAM packets. In order to process the= OAM packets targeted to a SID, based on a local configuration, the net-pgm= needs to allow processing of the OAM packets. What we need is a clarification in the net-pgm draft for the = Upper Layer Processing. I=E2=80=99ve added NET-PGM editors (Spring is alrea= dy CC=E2=80=99ed) to request this change.

=C2=A0

[ZA] Normative language has been added to address yo= ur comment. 4.1.2 and 4.2.2 further adds additional normati= ve text for Ping and traceroute use-cases, respectively.

  • I have a question on how a local node selects an application that is to rec= eive a punted packet (whether marked by O-flag that includes one of OAM SID= s)? The document provides examples where the destination is either ICMPv6 o= r a traceroute (?) process. Is that an exhaustive list?

[ZA] The list is not exhaustive. Furthermore, O-bit = is for telemetry use.

=C2=A0

I greatly appreciate your kind consideration and am = looking forward to the productive discussion.

=C2=A0

[ZA] Likewise, many thanks for your comments.

=C2=A0

Thanks

=C2=A0

Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar

=C2=A0

Regards,

Greg

=C2=A0

On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 3:53 PM Ole Troan <otroan@employees..org> wrote:

Hello,

=C2=A0 As agreed in the working group session in Singapore, this message st= arts a new two week 6MAN Working Group Last Call on advancing:

=C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 : Operations, Administration, and Maintenance (OA= M) in Segment Routing Networks with IPv6 Data plane (SRv6)
=C2=A0 Author=C2=A0 =C2=A0: Z. Ali, C. Filsfils, S. Matsushima, D. Voyer, M= .. Chen
=C2=A0 Filename : draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam-02
=C2=A0 Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 : 23
=C2=A0 Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: 2019-11-20

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam/

as a Proposed Standard.=C2=A0

Substantive comments and statements of support for publishing this document= should be directed to the mailing list.
Editorial suggestions can be sent to the author. This last call will end on= the 18th of December 2019.

To improve document quality and ensure that bugs are caught as early as pos= sible, we would require at least
two reviewers to do a complete review of the document.=C2=A0 Please let the= chairs know if you are willing to be a reviewer.

The last call will be forwarded to the spring working group, with discussio= n directed to the ipv6 list.

Thanks,
Bob & Ole, 6man co-chairs


--------------------------------------------------------------------
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
ipv6@ietf.org
Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
--------------------------------------------------------------------=

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boundary="_000_FRXPR01MB03926E7F0A28B837D69C3C819CEA0FRXPR01MB0392DEUP_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 13bfc221-ed98-4177-0f36-08d7ba9129e1 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 26 Feb 2020 07:54:53.0654 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bde4dffc-4b60-4cf6-8b04-a5eeb25f5c4f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: h1ZWaoDAiGN8b+LoX8cp0uWkCGLdet/xLD3doGqWB5wi8x6Pz1qqwy+DSywXm2cvu6sd1+VZEKkUFZlGz9H8elWELHYnutUSo8MgIRI9vVk= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: FRXPR01MB0854 X-TM-SNTS-SMTP: 3796C7DA7C1E43184B87231D967F5325CDC4DC585D28DEC57DA2A05E697492342000:8 X-OriginatorOrg: telekom.de Archived-At: Subject: [spring] Monitoring metric to detect and locate congestion X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 07:55:02 -0000 --_000_FRXPR01MB03926E7F0A28B837D69C3C819CEA0FRXPR01MB0392DEUP_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear IPPM (and SPRING) participants, I'm solliciting interest in a new network monitoring metric which allows to= detect and locate congested interfaces. Important properties are * Same scalability as ICMP ping in the sense one measurement relation r= equired per monitored connection * Adds detection and location of congested interfaces as compared to IC= MP ping (otherwise measured metrics are compatible with ICMP ping) * Requires Segment Routing (which means, measurement on forwarding laye= r, no other interaction with passed routers - in opposite to ICMP ping) * Active measurement (may be deployed using a single sender&receiver or= separate sender and receiver, Segment Routing allows for both options) I'd be happy to present the draft in Vancouver. If there's community intere= st. Please read and comment. You'll find slides at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/slides-105-ippm-14-draft= -geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-00 Draft url: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring/ Regards, Ruediger --_000_FRXPR01MB03926E7F0A28B837D69C3C819CEA0FRXPR01MB0392DEUP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear IPPM (and SPRING) participant= s,

 

I’m solliciting interest in a new network moni= toring metric which allows to detect and locate congested interfaces. Impor= tant properties are

  • Same scalability as ICMP ping in the sense one measurement relation r= equired per monitored connection
  • Adds detection and lo= cation of congested interfaces as compared to ICMP ping (otherwise measured= metrics are compatible with ICMP ping)
  • Requires Segme= nt Routing (which means, measurement on forwarding layer, no other interact= ion with passed routers – in opposite to ICMP ping)
    • Active measurement (may be deployed using a single sender&receiver = or separate sender and receiver, Segment Routing allows for both options)

 

I’d be happy to present the draft in Vancouver= . If there’s community interest. Please read and comment.<= /p>

 

You’ll find slides at  

 

https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/1= 05/materials/slides-105-ippm-14-draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-00<= /span>

 

Draft url:

 

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ge= ib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring/

 

Regards,

 

Ruediger

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Halpern" Thread-Topic: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea Thread-Index: AQHV7DwdkMxRcWuju0C/bzMWXa8kPKgtOWMw Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 09:50:44 +0000 Message-ID: <05981e2ea71c4b3083ed6e15c7e20641@huawei.com> References: <5c2a4b36-0c59-709e-23eb-00f4aa1ce52f@joelhalpern.com> <9B89F4C2-5594-4D31-8893-21F3F4A0DF6C@cisco.com> <58ED78D3-9E0C-4556-8853-8754B361DF6D@cisco.com> <81A30B25-9857-467E-85AE-1FE84B6F3197@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.202.118] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 09:50:54 -0000 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DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hoHIMRlxwTIq for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 01:52:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x32d.google.com (mail-ot1-x32d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 277343A11C8 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 01:52:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x32d.google.com with SMTP id b3so2394848otp.4 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 01:52:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=q7E/ILJrvg3MpqdHGUVB7zqM3/GizY13YmnvHK0Nss4=; b=Y4Ll+PcU2GudZOrtd4noXWX9YybyG2IWkA4JBtMpTBt3+pt2CZ7jmOLRrNFnXQM1Eq SP1qMfXIxDoZQQKMmcaCkME+l6JZIUwXyU7PN/Tue0ThbWdb2Tey2jL1bKP0SAIOMp/1 +S//H21pttVjspKAJ9X0qt7itqhp7G8npEW5tZ7xc5fCHDS5RSlMkUii3zl9t5tQ2u2s uMWt1KydaKDHTqoV9W8Agkyu+mdCFYn6fMfiD/PhDHy7RtMlA2NgYVlGVBz0drxrhBAk yRqmfFBSvHk4CXZXxRW4mHjAD7qdFCbpGYLTxD6GkdBwwhfXVmOqmL+ixxqc/7+B1oQY b2Xw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=q7E/ILJrvg3MpqdHGUVB7zqM3/GizY13YmnvHK0Nss4=; b=TXkSjM94zYrRfAoj3zKFy8Zlc+wSKIy241vv82FCGnARkzgd6vV+Xl34ziTTWFbcCp 05Yfbm/nNnpKi8L7VwIbHEcfOdlJoE6YxkobIf2/rZa3Ht31K6PZHwbOv0mzkJdaw3qZ uD9tsKgJBxpAtLmg66LtsmGbLP2kGlrEyqpOscDww89Gk1nVuIHBhISumIaVS/xl6H8B j4j3uwQGEJpMbimH9Kvfi+UfOpZkAP3cecrpugDi0cr/Hh0fkOTzGUOgNdOr9wwFCZdr oa79LXOfqnMFm+OVOXyPzl/FkW85SixuSe7GTA0iZennp8HjyrLAtiNB5Ya3AWnNpNTa ebAw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXUhzlq+FD++LBZkkC11/Qiv5t6IL2JkJxQ6KmIyr82s5QK9+GS YfurdFkRa3IdCd+LpfMQJklND2RCrvKIoWpuj45XLA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyNhKdpmHqr7jYcOT1bVpTTcwDl7XhwvgTw9eyk3apiarY0yNM/PkIboDsI4TcLPte8LYgXfIygjAvungzQiHs= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:6a4f:: with SMTP id h15mr2283685otn.86.1582710769204; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 01:52:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 10:52:39 +0100 Message-ID: To: Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de Cc: ippm-chairs@ietf.org, SPRING WG , ippm@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002e4ebd059f779125" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Monitoring metric to detect and locate congestion X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 09:52:53 -0000 --0000000000002e4ebd059f779125 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ruediger, I have read your draft and presentation with interest as I am a big supporter and in some lab trials of end to end network path probing. Few comments, observations, questions: You are essentially measuring and comparing delay across N paths traversing known network topology (I love "network tomography" name !) * First question - this will likely run on RE/RP and in some platforms path between LC and RE/RP is completely deterministic and can take 10s or 100s of ms locally in the router. So right here the proposal to compare anything may not really work - unless the spec mandates that actually timestamping is done in hardware on the receiving LC. Then CPU can process it when it has cycles. * Second question is that congestion usually has a very transient character ... You would need to be super lucky to find any congestion in normal network using test probes of any sort. If you have interfaces always congested then just the queue depth time delta may not be visible in end to end measurements. * Third - why not simply look at the queue counters at each node ? Queue depth, queue history, min, avg, max on a per interface basis offer tons of information readily available. Why would anyone need to inject loops of probe packets in known network to detect this ? And in black box unknown networks this is not going to work as you would not know the network topology in the first place. Likewise link down/up is already reflected in your syslog via BFD and IGP alarms. I really do not think you need end to end protocol to tell you that. + s/nodes L100 and L200 one one/nodes L100 and L200 on one/ :) Many thx, R. On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 8:55 AM wrote: > Dear IPPM (and SPRING) participants, > > > > I=E2=80=99m solliciting interest in a new network monitoring metric which= allows > to detect and locate congested interfaces. Important properties are > > - Same scalability as ICMP ping in the sense one measurement relation > required per monitored connection > - Adds detection and location of congested interfaces as compared to > ICMP ping (otherwise measured metrics are compatible with ICMP ping) > - Requires Segment Routing (which means, measurement on forwarding > layer, no other interaction with passed routers =E2=80=93 in opposite = to ICMP ping) > - Active measurement (may be deployed using a single sender&receiver > or separate sender and receiver, Segment Routing allows for both optio= ns) > > > > I=E2=80=99d be happy to present the draft in Vancouver.. If there=E2=80= =99s community > interest. Please read and comment. > > > > You=E2=80=99ll find slides at > > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/slides-105-ippm-14-dra= ft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-00 > > > > Draft url: > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring/ > > > > Regards, > > > > Ruediger > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --0000000000002e4ebd059f779125 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Ruediger,

I have read your draft=C2= =A0and presentation with interest as I am a big=C2=A0supporter and in some = lab trials=C2=A0 of end to end network path probing.=C2=A0

Few comments, observations, questions:=C2=A0

<= div>You are essentially measuring and comparing delay across N paths traver= sing known=C2=A0network topology (I love "network tomography" nam= e !)

* First question - this will likely run on RE= /RP and in some platforms path between LC and RE/RP is completely determini= stic=C2=A0and can take 10s or 100s of ms locally in the router. So right he= re the proposal to compare anything may not really work=C2=A0- unless the s= pec mandates that actually timestamping is done in hardware on the receivin= g LC. Then CPU can process it when it has cycles.=C2=A0

* Second question is that congestion usually has a very transient cha= racter ... You would need to be super lucky to find any congestion=C2=A0in = normal network using test probes of any sort. If you have interfaces always= congested then just the queue depth time delta may not be visible in end t= o end measurements.=C2=A0

* Third - why not simply= look at the queue counters at each node ? Queue depth, queue history, min,= avg, max on a per interface basis offer tons of information readily availa= ble. Why would anyone need to inject loops of probe packets in known networ= k to detect this ? And in black box unknown networks this is not going to w= ork as you would not know the network topology in the first place. Likewise= link down/up is already reflected in your syslog via BFD and IGP alarms. I= really do not think you need end to end protocol to tell you that.=C2=A0

+=C2=A0

s/nodes L100 and L200 one one/nodes L100 and= L200 on one/=C2=A0=C2=A0

:)=C2=A0

Many th= x,
R.

On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 8:55 AM <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de> wrote:
=

Dear IPPM (and SPRING) participant= s,

=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99m solliciting interest in a new network mo= nitoring metric which allows to detect and locate congested interfaces. Imp= ortant properties are

  • Same scalability as ICMP ping in the sense on= e measurement relation required per monitored connection
    • =
  • Adds detection and location of congested inte= rfaces as compared to ICMP ping (otherwise measured metrics are compatible = with ICMP ping)
  • Requires Se= gment Routing (which means, measurement on forwarding layer, no other inter= action with passed routers =E2=80=93 in opposite to ICMP ping)
  • Active measurement (may be deployed usi= ng a single sender&receiver or separate sender and receiver, Segment Ro= uting allows for both options)

=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99d be happy to present the draft in Vancouv= er.. If there=E2=80=99s community interest. Please read and comment.=

=C2=A0

You=E2=80=99ll find slides at =C2=A0

=C2=A0

https://datatracker.= ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/slides-105-ippm-14-draft-geib-ippm-connectiv= ity-monitoring-00

=C2=A0

Draft url:

=C2=A0

https://datatracker.iet= f.org/doc/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring/

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Ruediger

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
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PiBzcHJpbmdAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5m by9zcHJpbmcNCg0KX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X18NCnNwcmluZyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCnNwcmluZ0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0 Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9zcHJpbmcNCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQpzcHJpbmcgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQpzcHJpbmdAaWV0Zi5v cmcNCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vc3ByaW5nDQo= From nobody Wed Feb 26 02:01:07 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80EC73A11FE for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 02:01:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GXnHcCOmOjR0 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 02:00:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x32e.google.com (mail-ot1-x32e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6BA123A11EB for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 02:00:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x32e.google.com with SMTP id r16so2440536otd.2 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 02:00:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=LbnotXH2giWC6NzeL+4FZu4yMA1VWIVIXoWKWrA5smQ=; b=aHakFtg0xlRrT9OpnToe3lgif97cjYex+LUheewXfryYSUVXP91HLR1MJpUnAfTuan 0vbTCKfnuMSHEkQqmppMn+X88PVO9oOBMIXzcpOGuLZLkfBAvR70LTIA8ZEPAZGM60US 8HDXJ58iifj4ezFhxIIU7FtFcodB+7PIgK5GSPg/qETWJKei2JT1h7pwPb/iifkw8GcI OGMBsQ8R2H2WXufA+LWH410Csdfxpo0PCpKnpJ3b77koi/FHm2qHf/DEIuHN5yFBvFBy mR/ZXJW9dki4i6rt1gQIVmOD26sOwtCSYEAdElubnd6pw3KJqpkeqdw0uKJGgMM61mIZ 6QRA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=LbnotXH2giWC6NzeL+4FZu4yMA1VWIVIXoWKWrA5smQ=; b=ejEfoscQa+3MxOn36gVEyqjW+uQ4sE6uip8GTnB6QwyB2esKk1XsAyXE/OFfn7Huo+ PV9EfOV1WxDHs3xfA7HIkf9i+aHdgF6iVfjQLkC/4vUZQ3kIy64lIlbDHYq1NuPN7VFQ EdsDugaam+1ZFCReLfJvwxjMorgimrWoAM58+FeVIfYffUPz+sIP73oD0WKUJPibPIm8 Mc65NSiDDC/3pjcn/g+edw1ntR01fjkvefsmp5DKv3B4YLKzP+c3B+KL212mJ30knIOQ PZK8KGjlkGogRMSokm0JMRuc3d/gVLfOIv9jg8u7OhrVK0YTS8rXgZof6VAeJrGOTtCf xC5w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWc3sxq49M8OAQlqGYwIAzHu5yhv+1o/aubVcRdrYZ8mG4Lv4KW idYyE0bTx0FPOgPCD0IjJC1SLLZzqNaapqISPSsGqw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyT3pKUuYnEh5Jd5lKHQDEb9hxIk9v8JBmoQuJJTBkVHOZoNCIxitA1u2xaDQHlhzBUON99nrHjhoHbUAgXVhE= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:7083:: with SMTP id l3mr2181458otj.193.1582711253997; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 02:00:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5c2a4b36-0c59-709e-23eb-00f4aa1ce52f@joelhalpern.com> <9B89F4C2-5594-4D31-8893-21F3F4A0DF6C@cisco.com> <58ED78D3-9E0C-4556-8853-8754B361DF6D@cisco.com> <81A30B25-9857-467E-85AE-1FE84B6F3197@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:00:43 +0100 Message-ID: To: Mark Smith Cc: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" , Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "Joel M. Halpern" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000013ab5e059f77ae99" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 10:01:06 -0000 --00000000000013ab5e059f77ae99 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 1:31 AM Mark Smith wrote: > Hi Pablo, > > On Sat, 21 Dec 2019 at 04:38, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) > wrote: > > > > Hi Ron, > > > > I guess we are making some progress here but going in some circles. So > far we have moved from =E2=80=9Cthis violates RFC8200=E2=80=9D to =E2=80= =9Cthere are no use-cases > or benefits=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Cthis is complex for an ASIC=E2=80=9D to = =E2=80=9Cwhat is the benefit > again=E2=80=9D and now back to =E2=80=9Cthis is complex for an ASIC=E2=80= =9D. > > > > As far as I know, the next header field in both the IPv6 fixed header > and in extension headers is immutable while the packet is travelling > within the network, as is the payload length field in the IPv6 base > fixed header. > > Nothing in RFC 8200 modifies those fields while the packet is in > flight between the packet's original source and final destination, nor > is there anything in RFC 8200 that specifies how to do those > modifications and any other discussion about the consequences and > considerations when doing so. > > > The IPsec AH header is providing integrity checking over fields in the > IPv6 packet that shouldn't be being modified while the packet is > within the network. What is and isn't protected by AH can be seen to > be a specification of what processing on a packet can and cannot occur > while it is in flight across the network towards its final > destination. > > Therefore, AH is really a quality assurance mechanism for the network > packet processing that RFC 8200 specifies. The processing of the > packet by the network with or without the use of AH should be the > same. AH should really only be necessary if there is a belief that the > network is likely not to be processing packets in accordance to RFC > 8200, either accidentally or intentionally. > > > Per RFC4302 (IPsec AH), the following section explicitly states which > fields in the IPv6 header are immutable and are to be protected by AH: > > > 3.3.3.1.2. ICV Computation for IPv6 > > 3.3.3.1.2.1. Base Header Fields > > The IPv6 base header fields are classified as follows: > > Immutable > Version > Payload Length > Next Header > Source Address > Destination Address (without Routing Extension Header) > > Mutable but predictable > Destination Address (with Routing Extension Header) > > Mutable (zeroed prior to ICV calculation) > DSCP (6 bits, see RFC2474 [NBBB98]) > ECN (2 bits, see RFC3168 [RFB01]) > Flow Label (*) > Hop Limit > > (*) The flow label described in AHv1 was mutable, and in > RFC 2460 [DH98] was potentially mutable. To retain > compatibility with existing AH implementations, the > flow label is not included in the ICV in AHv2. > > > > > > As for how easy or not something is, the PSP behavior has been > implemented and deployed (running code). The use-cases have been describe= d > and positively reinforced by operators. I don't think there is any furthe= r > explanation to provide. > > > > "Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should." > > How much troubleshooting experience have they had with this? > > I think a very important factor is how easy something is to > troubleshoot - how obvious is the mechanism works; is the mechanism > consistent with existing behaviours i.e. the principle of least > surprise (removing EHs at an intermediary hop certainly isn't in IPv6, > even if the intermediary hop as the packet's current DA); when it > inevitably fails, how obvious is it where the fault is likely to be; > and how quickly can a typical fault be rectified. > > > > Regards, > Mark. > > > > > > Happy Holidays, > > Pablo. > > > > > > =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message----- > > From: Ron Bonica > > Date: Tuesday, 17 December 2019 at 16:06 > > To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" , "Joel M. > Halpern" , "spring@ietf.org" > > Subject: RE: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea > > > > Pablo, > > > > In your message below, are you arguing that it is easier for the > penultimate node to remove the SRH than it is for the ultimate node to > ignore it? I think that would be a stretch. > > > > > Ron > > > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) > > Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2019 4:50 AM > > To: Ron Bonica ; Joel M. Halpern < > jmh@joelhalpern.com>; spring@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea > > > > Ron, > > > > What is the "price paid by the penultimate segment"? All the curren= t > implementations do this at linerate with no performance degradation as I > have explained in my email before. > > > > There is substantial benefit. Four operators have deployed PSP, > which proves the benefit. > > It enables new use-cases that have been provided by other members i= n > the list. [1], [2] and [5]. > > From operational perspective it is not complex as explained in [3]. > > Operators have expressed their value in [4] and [5]. > > > > [1].- > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/= wTLJQkzC6xwSNPbhB84VH0mLXx0__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj= 30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IcdXeBzk_$ > > [2].- > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/= V0ZpjVLSVZxHaBwecXFxqJjlg_c__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj= 30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IcU9bihBc$ > > [3].- > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/= ssobwemrPz0uEZjvRCZP1e4l_l0__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj= 30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4Icc_wo902$ > > [4].- > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/= KXCBHT8Tpy17S5BsJXLBS35yZbk__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj= 30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IcRXo_q-1$ > > [5].- > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/= ErcErN39RIlzkL5SKNVAeEWpnAI__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj= 30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IceGPpSab$ > > > > Cheers, > > Pablo. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ron Bonica > > Date: Thursday, 12 December 2019 at 21:50 > > To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" , "Joel M. > Halpern" , "spring@ietf.org" > > Subject: RE: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea > > > > Pablo, > > > > I am not convinced the benefit derived by the ultimate segment > justifies the price paid by the penultimate segment. Specifically, > > > > - the ultimate segment benefits because it doesn't have to skip > over the SRH with SL =3D=3D 0 > > - in order for the ultimate segment to derive this benefit, the > penultimate segment needs to remove bytes from the middle of the packet a= nd > update two fields in the IPv6 header > > > > As Joel said, we typically don't add options (i.e., complexity) > to a specification unless there is substantial benefit. > > > > Ron > > > > > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: spring On Behalf Of Pablo > Camarillo (pcamaril) > > Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2019 3:12 PM > > To: Joel M. Halpern ; spring@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea > > > > Joel, > > > > 1.- The use-case for PSP has already been provided at the > mailer. There are scenarios where it provides benefits to operators. > > > > 2.- The PSP behavior is optional. It is up to the operator in > his deployment to decide whether to enable it or not at one particular > router. > > Similarly, a vendor may decide not to implement it. The PSP > behavior has been implemented by several vendors and deployed (see the sr= v6 > deployment draft). > > > > 3.- A network may have PSP enabled at some nodes and not at > others. Everything is still interoperable and works fine. > > > > 4.- PSP is not a complex operation in hardware (doable at > linerate on existing merchant silicon). > > Example: It has been implemented and deployed on Broadcom J/J+. > If I recall correctly Broadcom Jericho+ started shipping in March 2016! P= SP > is supported on this platform at linerate with no performance degradation > (neither PPPS nor BW). > > Given that this is doable in a platform from more than 3 years > ago, I fail to see how you need "very special provision" to do this. > > > > Is it really something that horrible to provide freedom of > choice to the operators deploying? > > > > In summary, it can be implemented without any burden in hardwar= e > and deployment experience prove this is beneficial to operators. > > > > Thanks, > > Pablo. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: spring on behalf of "Joel M. > Halpern" > > Date: Wednesday, 11 December 2019 at 03:55 > > To: "spring@ietf.org" > > Subject: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea > > > > For purposes of this thread, even if you think PSP violates > RFC 8200, > > let us assume that it is legal. > > > > As I understand it, the PSP situation is: > > o the packet arrives at the place (let's not argue about > whether SIDs > > are locators) identified by the SID in the destination > address field > > o that SID is the next to last SID in the SID list > > o that sid is marked as / known to be PSP > > o at the intended place in the processing pseudocode, the > last (first) > > entry in the SRH is copied into the destination IPv6 addres= s > field of > > the packet > > -> The SRH being used is then removed from the packet. > > > > In order to evaluate whether this is a good idea, we have t= o > have some > > idea of the benefit. It may be that I am missing some of > the benefit, > > and I would appreciate clarification. > > As far as I can tell, the benefit of this removal is that i= n > exchange > > for this node doing the work of removing the SRH, the final > node in the > > SRH does not have to process the SRH at all, as it has been > removed. > > > > I have trouble seeing how that work tradeoff can be > beneficial. > > Removing bytes from the middle of a packet is a complex > operation. > > Doing so in Silicon (we expect this to be done in the fast > path of > > significant forwarders as I understand it) requires very > special > > provision. Even in software, removing bytes from the middl= e > of a packet > > requires somewhere between some and a lot of extra work. I= t > is > > distinctly NOT free. > > > > In contrast, we have assumed that the work of processing SR= H > itself is > > tractable, since otherwise all of SRv6 would be > problematic. So why is > > this necessary. > > > > Yours, > > Joel > > > > PS: Note that both the MPLS case and the encapsulation case > are very > > different in that the material being removed is at the fron= t > of the IP > > packet. Pop or prepend are MUCH easier than middle-removal > (or > > middle-insertion). > > > > _______________________________________________ > > spring mailing list > > spring@ietf.org > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring_= _;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Uvd5DRUIJlsmob5a7r4JRgMMbZcE60JOPIW3K2MubKpIuKXA1r78vsFpWAH= a8hW2$ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > spring mailing list > > spring@ietf.org > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring_= _;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Uvd5DRUIJlsmob5a7r4JRgMMbZcE60JOPIW3K2MubKpIuKXA1r78vsFpWAH= a8hW2$ > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > spring mailing list > > spring@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --00000000000013ab5e059f77ae99 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 1:31 AM Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Pablo,

On Sat, 21 Dec 2019 at 04:38, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)
<pcamaril@cisco.= com> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 Hi Ron,
>
> I guess we are making some progress here but going in some circles. So= far we have moved from =E2=80=9Cthis violates RFC8200=E2=80=9D to =E2=80= =9Cthere are no use-cases or benefits=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Cthis is complex = for an ASIC=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Cwhat is the benefit again=E2=80=9D and now= back to =E2=80=9Cthis is complex for an ASIC=E2=80=9D.
>

As far as I know, the next header field in both the IPv6 fixed header
and in extension headers is immutable while the packet is travelling
within the network, as is the payload length field in the IPv6 base
fixed header.

Nothing in RFC 8200 modifies those fields while the packet is in
flight between the packet's original source and final destination, nor<= br> is there anything in RFC 8200 that specifies how to do those
modifications and any other discussion about the consequences and
considerations when doing so.


The IPsec AH header is providing integrity checking over fields in the
IPv6 packet that shouldn't be being modified while the packet is
within the network. What is and isn't protected by AH can be seen to be a specification of what processing on a packet can and cannot occur
while it is in flight across the network towards its final
destination.

Therefore, AH is really a quality assurance mechanism for the network
packet processing that RFC 8200 specifies. The processing of the
packet by the network with or without the use of AH should be the
same. AH should really only be necessary if there is a belief that the
network is likely not to be processing packets in accordance to RFC
8200, either accidentally or intentionally.


Per RFC4302 (IPsec AH),=C2=A0 the following section explicitly states which=
fields in the IPv6 header are immutable and are to be protected by AH:


3.3.3.1.2.=C2=A0 ICV Computation for IPv6

3.3.3.1.2.1.=C2=A0 Base Header Fields

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The IPv6 base header fields are classified as follows:

Immutable
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Version
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Payload Length
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Next Header
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Source Address
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Destination Address (without Routi= ng Extension Header)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Mutable but predictable
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Destination Address (with Routing = Extension Header)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Mutable (zeroed prior to ICV calculation)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0DSCP (6 bits, see RFC2474 [NBBB98]= )
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ECN (2 bits, see RFC3168 [RFB01])<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Flow Label (*)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hop Limit

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (*) The flow label described in AHv1 was mutabl= e, and in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 RFC 2460 [DH98] was potentially m= utable.=C2=A0 To retain
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 compatibility with existing AH im= plementations, the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 flow label is not included in the= ICV in AHv2.




> As for how easy or not something is, the PSP behavior has been impleme= nted and deployed (running code). The use-cases have been described and pos= itively reinforced by operators. I don't think there is any further exp= lanation to provide.
>

"Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should."=

How much troubleshooting experience have they had with this?

I think a very important factor is how easy something is to
troubleshoot - how obvious is the mechanism works; is the mechanism
consistent with existing behaviours i.e. the principle of least
surprise (removing EHs at an intermediary hop certainly isn't in IPv6,<= br> even if the intermediary hop as the packet's current DA); when it
inevitably fails, how obvious is it where the fault is likely to be;
and how quickly can a typical fault be rectified.



Regards,
Mark.




> Happy Holidays,
> Pablo.
>
>
> =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
> From: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
> Date: Tuesday, 17 December 2019 at 16:06
> To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>, "Joel M. = Halpern" <= jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> Subject: RE: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pablo,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In your message below, are you arguing that it is e= asier for the penultimate node to remove the SRH than it is for the ultimat= e node to ignore it? I think that would be a stretch.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0Ron
>
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Juniper Business Use Only
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-----Original Message-----
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0From: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril@cisco.com>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2019 4:50 AM
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; Joel M. Halpern <<= a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com" target=3D"_blank">jmh@joelhalpern.com= >; spring@ietf.= org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ron,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0What is the "price paid by the penultimate seg= ment"? All the current implementations do this at linerate with no per= formance degradation as I have explained in my email before.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0There is substantial benefit. Four operators have d= eployed PSP, which proves the benefit.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It enables new use-cases that have been provided by= other members in the list. [1], [2] and [5].
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0From operational perspective it is not complex as e= xplained in [3].
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Operators have expressed their value in [4] and [5]= .
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[1].- https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://ma= ilarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/wTLJQkzC6xwSNPbhB84VH0mLXx0__;!!NEt6yMaO= -gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IcdXeBzk_$ >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[2].- https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://ma= ilarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/V0ZpjVLSVZxHaBwecXFxqJjlg_c__;!!NEt6yMaO= -gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IcU9bihBc$ >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[3].- https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://ma= ilarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ssobwemrPz0uEZjvRCZP1e4l_l0__;!!NEt6yMaO= -gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4Icc_wo902$ >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[4].- https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://ma= ilarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/KXCBHT8Tpy17S5BsJXLBS35yZbk__;!!NEt6yMaO= -gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IcRXo_q-1$ >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[5].- https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://ma= ilarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ErcErN39RIlzkL5SKNVAeEWpnAI__;!!NEt6yMaO= -gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IceGPpSab$ >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Cheers,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pablo.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-----Original Message-----
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0From: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Date: Thursday, 12 December 2019 at 21:50
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com&= gt;, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Subject: RE: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pablo,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I am not convinced the benefit derive= d by the ultimate segment justifies the price paid by the penultimate segme= nt. Specifically,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- the ultimate segment benefits becau= se it doesn't have to skip over the SRH with SL =3D=3D 0
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- in order for the ultimate segment t= o derive this benefit, the penultimate segment needs to remove bytes from t= he middle of the packet and update two fields in the IPv6 header
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As Joel said, we typically don't = add options (i.e., complexity) to a specification unless there is substanti= al benefit.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ro= n
>
>
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Juniper Business Use Only
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-----Original Message-----
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On= Behalf Of Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2019 3:= 12 PM
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To: Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>; spring@ietf.org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a g= ood idea
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Joel,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01.- The use-case for PSP has already = been provided at the mailer. There are scenarios where it provides benefits= to operators.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02.- The PSP behavior is optional. It = is up to the operator in his deployment to decide whether to enable it or n= ot at one particular router.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Similarly, a vendor may decide not to= implement it. The PSP behavior has been implemented by several vendors and= deployed (see the srv6 deployment draft).
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A03.- A network may have PSP enabled at= some nodes and not at others.=C2=A0 Everything is still interoperable and = works fine.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04.- PSP is not a complex operation in= hardware (doable at linerate on existing merchant silicon).
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Example: It has been implemented and = deployed on Broadcom J/J+. If I recall correctly Broadcom Jericho+ started = shipping in March 2016! PSP is supported on this platform at linerate with = no performance degradation (neither PPPS nor BW).
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Given that this is doable in a platfo= rm from more than 3 years ago, I fail to see how you need "very specia= l provision" to do this.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Is it really something that horrible = to provide freedom of choice to the operators deploying?
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In summary, it can be implemented wit= hout any burden in hardware and deployment experience prove this is benefic= ial to operators.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pablo.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-----Original Message-----
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on= behalf of "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Date: Wednesday, 11 December 2019 at = 03:55
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Subject: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good = idea
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0For purposes of this th= read, even if you think PSP violates RFC 8200,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0let us assume that it i= s legal.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As I understand it, the= PSP situation is:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o the packet arrives at= the place (let's not argue about whether SIDs
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0are locators) identifie= d by the SID in the destination address field
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o that SID is the next = to last SID in the SID list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o that sid is marked as= / known to be PSP
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o at the intended place= in the processing pseudocode, the last (first)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0entry in the SRH is cop= ied into the destination IPv6 address field of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the packet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-> The SRH being use= d is then removed from the packet.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In order to evaluate wh= ether this is a good idea, we have to have some
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0idea of the benefit.=C2= =A0 It may be that I am missing some of the benefit,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and I would appreciate = clarification.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As far as I can tell, t= he benefit of this removal is that in exchange
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for this node doing the= work of removing the SRH, the final node in the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0SRH does not have to pr= ocess the SRH at all, as it has been removed.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I have trouble seeing h= ow that work tradeoff can be beneficial.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Removing bytes from the= middle of a packet is a complex operation.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Doing so in Silicon (we= expect this to be done in the fast path of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0significant forwarders = as I understand it) requires very special
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0provision.=C2=A0 Even i= n software, removing bytes from the middle of a packet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0requires somewhere betw= een some and a lot of extra work.=C2=A0 It is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0distinctly NOT free. >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In contrast, we have as= sumed that the work of processing SRH itself is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tractable, since otherw= ise all of SRv6 would be problematic.=C2=A0 So why is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this necessary.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Yours,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Joel
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0PS: Note that both the = MPLS case and the encapsulation case are very
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0different in that the m= aterial being removed is at the front of the IP
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0packet.=C2=A0 Pop or pr= epend are MUCH easier than middle-removal (or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0middle-insertion).
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_______________________= ________________________
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0spring mailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0spring@ietf.org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf= .org/mailman/listinfo/spring__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Uvd5DRUIJlsmob5a7r4JRgMMbZcE60= JOPIW3K2MubKpIuKXA1r78vsFpWAHa8hW2$
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_____________________________________= __________
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0spring mailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0spring@ietf.org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l= istinfo/spring__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Uvd5DRUIJlsmob5a7r4JRgMMbZcE60JOPIW3K2MubKpI= uKXA1r78vsFpWAHa8hW2$
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
--00000000000013ab5e059f77ae99-- From nobody Wed Feb 26 02:07:07 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 770C83A125B for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 02:07:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OioC9mn1ilyR for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 02:07:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x22b.google.com (mail-oi1-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 61AC73A1213 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 02:07:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x22b.google.com with SMTP id i1so2436819oie.8 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 02:07:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=DEHgv/v0oCI/4cz0aoYDLVuW09SgXghDPeardbmxHVs=; b=adXVAYuUyi+iu3r2dxWj9JnN7Q57I+wPU/1YvLfuQd+1AZvDXSdkWyrqpezyzvS00Q PAPDGBIDstM+Vb0OUVOp43hQsMAeAaKwgqT6ygN9MaFZ9kS1PctceK1Omkb+dUl0qDCo UuZVs6AjA4tI/E+GyFuzM5FPvLeCLgecbJmqjhWBXtefT6s1vMHYlGVWL4akEJVubTth lmIIrU0oub7C+BjMBkHq3x2987+H14Ji6JQ8Z7ULMv4DmgOFKdI2i92HAbuSnCHF00K6 qV6PmGeRK8/QkEUAPb+MOYJVn06tr7r6YT9Dg35YFZh2mwxpA8CQwynKAbuZYw1oF06a ogtw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=DEHgv/v0oCI/4cz0aoYDLVuW09SgXghDPeardbmxHVs=; b=VU4H6tCB+UJoEwmWBwYP7u4ndUQJKo5f0SmDJZnnO2sDDi8oAehJQWSfloGBj92JC0 nDihkve76asNcVU0gmKmcT0y+FfswdeV8IvxMUv6ap8MeEY/ZcF4kJPU4QrSeYHExeAk cMw6s75K2dguoud7pJ4YTTsERfEaBdbeCVUN/neSH2YQ417bIfBMaZYca889YmN6IGj+ 9y2MhRIc8VfIxcU/VReTjPAVD/+L+mEfmvm1XJN6C5jbAjNmPGJeqO5zPSnSjH9PO5Cd yknLrvKMqoZLdl6TrdGYbNLw6I3TCFYO6klBoXaHdczl6I9CYF12AjUkR9cZWcgVuzj/ nJoQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVoj9BTylY1yXCwDLbxMZHPP2m5drWgdKHg4WMOAp+t7Uu95yRd +dYWKu67YR7TMaa6+zWfKWkBjpJvN4kkzJHEHEixDsvL X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw7+uThlXBq4lGbgN7CMGiUGBeE/84FAkWWaLyV66qsLkLSJVGZsbo+9/zjraupZ5UWQH6a1rvtCBmYZeqPEi4= X-Received: by 2002:a54:4510:: with SMTP id l16mr2467498oil.70.1582711619448; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 02:06:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5c2a4b36-0c59-709e-23eb-00f4aa1ce52f@joelhalpern.com> <9B89F4C2-5594-4D31-8893-21F3F4A0DF6C@cisco.com> <58ED78D3-9E0C-4556-8853-8754B361DF6D@cisco.com> <81A30B25-9857-467E-85AE-1FE84B6F3197@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:06:49 +0100 Message-ID: To: Mark Smith Cc: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" , Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "Joel M. Halpern" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000dc0761059f77c3b7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 10:07:05 -0000 --000000000000dc0761059f77c3b7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So now we have one more to Pablo's list: "Let's not use it as it is hard to troubleshoot" ... Clearly each new tool has a learning curve and no doubt not everyone will know how to use it. But does this mean we should stop inventing new things ? IMO for someone who is starting to use SRv6 PHP is the least complex operational behaviour. Thx, R. On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 1:31 AM Mark Smith wrote: > >> Hi Pablo, >> >> On Sat, 21 Dec 2019 at 04:38, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) >> wrote: >> > >> > Hi Ron, >> > >> > I guess we are making some progress here but going in some circles. So >> far we have moved from =E2=80=9Cthis violates RFC8200=E2=80=9D to =E2=80= =9Cthere are no use-cases >> or benefits=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Cthis is complex for an ASIC=E2=80=9D to= =E2=80=9Cwhat is the benefit >> again=E2=80=9D and now back to =E2=80=9Cthis is complex for an ASIC=E2= =80=9D. >> > >> >> As far as I know, the next header field in both the IPv6 fixed header >> and in extension headers is immutable while the packet is travelling >> within the network, as is the payload length field in the IPv6 base >> fixed header. >> >> Nothing in RFC 8200 modifies those fields while the packet is in >> flight between the packet's original source and final destination, nor >> is there anything in RFC 8200 that specifies how to do those >> modifications and any other discussion about the consequences and >> considerations when doing so. >> >> >> The IPsec AH header is providing integrity checking over fields in the >> IPv6 packet that shouldn't be being modified while the packet is >> within the network. What is and isn't protected by AH can be seen to >> be a specification of what processing on a packet can and cannot occur >> while it is in flight across the network towards its final >> destination. >> >> Therefore, AH is really a quality assurance mechanism for the network >> packet processing that RFC 8200 specifies. The processing of the >> packet by the network with or without the use of AH should be the >> same. AH should really only be necessary if there is a belief that the >> network is likely not to be processing packets in accordance to RFC >> 8200, either accidentally or intentionally. >> >> >> Per RFC4302 (IPsec AH), the following section explicitly states which >> fields in the IPv6 header are immutable and are to be protected by AH: >> >> >> 3.3.3.1.2. ICV Computation for IPv6 >> >> 3.3.3.1.2.1. Base Header Fields >> >> The IPv6 base header fields are classified as follows: >> >> Immutable >> Version >> Payload Length >> Next Header >> Source Address >> Destination Address (without Routing Extension Header) >> >> Mutable but predictable >> Destination Address (with Routing Extension Header) >> >> Mutable (zeroed prior to ICV calculation) >> DSCP (6 bits, see RFC2474 [NBBB98]) >> ECN (2 bits, see RFC3168 [RFB01]) >> Flow Label (*) >> Hop Limit >> >> (*) The flow label described in AHv1 was mutable, and in >> RFC 2460 [DH98] was potentially mutable. To retain >> compatibility with existing AH implementations, the >> flow label is not included in the ICV in AHv2. >> >> >> >> >> > As for how easy or not something is, the PSP behavior has been >> implemented and deployed (running code). The use-cases have been describ= ed >> and positively reinforced by operators. I don't think there is any furth= er >> explanation to provide. >> > >> >> "Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should." >> >> How much troubleshooting experience have they had with this? >> >> I think a very important factor is how easy something is to >> troubleshoot - how obvious is the mechanism works; is the mechanism >> consistent with existing behaviours i.e. the principle of least >> surprise (removing EHs at an intermediary hop certainly isn't in IPv6, >> even if the intermediary hop as the packet's current DA); when it >> inevitably fails, how obvious is it where the fault is likely to be; >> and how quickly can a typical fault be rectified. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> Mark. >> >> >> >> >> > Happy Holidays, >> > Pablo. >> > >> > >> > =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message----- >> > From: Ron Bonica >> > Date: Tuesday, 17 December 2019 at 16:06 >> > To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" , "Joel M. >> Halpern" , "spring@ietf.org" >> > Subject: RE: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea >> > >> > Pablo, >> > >> > In your message below, are you arguing that it is easier for the >> penultimate node to remove the SRH than it is for the ultimate node to >> ignore it? I think that would be a stretch. >> > >> > >> Ron >> > >> > >> > >> > Juniper Business Use Only >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) >> > Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2019 4:50 AM >> > To: Ron Bonica ; Joel M. Halpern < >> jmh@joelhalpern.com>; spring@ietf.org >> > Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea >> > >> > Ron, >> > >> > What is the "price paid by the penultimate segment"? All the >> current implementations do this at linerate with no performance degradat= ion >> as I have explained in my email before. >> > >> > There is substantial benefit. Four operators have deployed PSP, >> which proves the benefit. >> > It enables new use-cases that have been provided by other members >> in the list. [1], [2] and [5]. >> > From operational perspective it is not complex as explained in [3]= . >> > Operators have expressed their value in [4] and [5]. >> > >> > [1].- >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring= /wTLJQkzC6xwSNPbhB84VH0mLXx0__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6V= j30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IcdXeBzk_$ >> > [2].- >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring= /V0ZpjVLSVZxHaBwecXFxqJjlg_c__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6V= j30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IcU9bihBc$ >> > [3].- >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring= /ssobwemrPz0uEZjvRCZP1e4l_l0__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6V= j30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4Icc_wo902$ >> > [4].- >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring= /KXCBHT8Tpy17S5BsJXLBS35yZbk__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6V= j30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IcRXo_q-1$ >> > [5].- >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring= /ErcErN39RIlzkL5SKNVAeEWpnAI__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6V= j30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IceGPpSab$ >> > >> > Cheers, >> > Pablo. >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Ron Bonica >> > Date: Thursday, 12 December 2019 at 21:50 >> > To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" , "Joel M. >> Halpern" , "spring@ietf.org" >> > Subject: RE: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea >> > >> > Pablo, >> > >> > I am not convinced the benefit derived by the ultimate segment >> justifies the price paid by the penultimate segment. Specifically, >> > >> > - the ultimate segment benefits because it doesn't have to ski= p >> over the SRH with SL =3D=3D 0 >> > - in order for the ultimate segment to derive this benefit, th= e >> penultimate segment needs to remove bytes from the middle of the packet = and >> update two fields in the IPv6 header >> > >> > As Joel said, we typically don't add options (i.e., complexity= ) >> to a specification unless there is substantial benefit. >> > >> > Ron >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Juniper Business Use Only >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: spring On Behalf Of Pablo >> Camarillo (pcamaril) >> > Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2019 3:12 PM >> > To: Joel M. Halpern ; spring@ietf.org >> > Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea >> > >> > Joel, >> > >> > 1.- The use-case for PSP has already been provided at the >> mailer. There are scenarios where it provides benefits to operators. >> > >> > 2.- The PSP behavior is optional. It is up to the operator in >> his deployment to decide whether to enable it or not at one particular >> router. >> > Similarly, a vendor may decide not to implement it. The PSP >> behavior has been implemented by several vendors and deployed (see the s= rv6 >> deployment draft). >> > >> > 3.- A network may have PSP enabled at some nodes and not at >> others. Everything is still interoperable and works fine. >> > >> > 4.- PSP is not a complex operation in hardware (doable at >> linerate on existing merchant silicon). >> > Example: It has been implemented and deployed on Broadcom J/J+= . >> If I recall correctly Broadcom Jericho+ started shipping in March 2016! = PSP >> is supported on this platform at linerate with no performance degradatio= n >> (neither PPPS nor BW). >> > Given that this is doable in a platform from more than 3 years >> ago, I fail to see how you need "very special provision" to do this. >> > >> > Is it really something that horrible to provide freedom of >> choice to the operators deploying? >> > >> > In summary, it can be implemented without any burden in >> hardware and deployment experience prove this is beneficial to operators= . >> > >> > Thanks, >> > Pablo. >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: spring on behalf of "Joel M. >> Halpern" >> > Date: Wednesday, 11 December 2019 at 03:55 >> > To: "spring@ietf.org" >> > Subject: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea >> > >> > For purposes of this thread, even if you think PSP violate= s >> RFC 8200, >> > let us assume that it is legal. >> > >> > As I understand it, the PSP situation is: >> > o the packet arrives at the place (let's not argue about >> whether SIDs >> > are locators) identified by the SID in the destination >> address field >> > o that SID is the next to last SID in the SID list >> > o that sid is marked as / known to be PSP >> > o at the intended place in the processing pseudocode, the >> last (first) >> > entry in the SRH is copied into the destination IPv6 >> address field of >> > the packet >> > -> The SRH being used is then removed from the packet. >> > >> > In order to evaluate whether this is a good idea, we have >> to have some >> > idea of the benefit. It may be that I am missing some of >> the benefit, >> > and I would appreciate clarification. >> > As far as I can tell, the benefit of this removal is that >> in exchange >> > for this node doing the work of removing the SRH, the fina= l >> node in the >> > SRH does not have to process the SRH at all, as it has bee= n >> removed. >> > >> > I have trouble seeing how that work tradeoff can be >> beneficial. >> > Removing bytes from the middle of a packet is a complex >> operation. >> > Doing so in Silicon (we expect this to be done in the fast >> path of >> > significant forwarders as I understand it) requires very >> special >> > provision. Even in software, removing bytes from the >> middle of a packet >> > requires somewhere between some and a lot of extra work. >> It is >> > distinctly NOT free. >> > >> > In contrast, we have assumed that the work of processing >> SRH itself is >> > tractable, since otherwise all of SRv6 would be >> problematic. So why is >> > this necessary. >> > >> > Yours, >> > Joel >> > >> > PS: Note that both the MPLS case and the encapsulation cas= e >> are very >> > different in that the material being removed is at the >> front of the IP >> > packet. Pop or prepend are MUCH easier than middle-remova= l >> (or >> > middle-insertion). >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > spring mailing list >> > spring@ietf.org >> > >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring= __;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Uvd5DRUIJlsmob5a7r4JRgMMbZcE60JOPIW3K2MubKpIuKXA1r78vsFpWA= Ha8hW2$ >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > spring mailing list >> > spring@ietf.org >> > >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring= __;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Uvd5DRUIJlsmob5a7r4JRgMMbZcE60JOPIW3K2MubKpIuKXA1r78vsFpWA= Ha8hW2$ >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > spring mailing list >> > spring@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >> >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >> > --000000000000dc0761059f77c3b7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

So now we have one more to= Pablo's list: "Let's not use it as it is hard to troubleshoot= " ...=C2=A0

Clearly each new tool has a learn= ing=C2=A0curve and no doubt not everyone will know how to use it. But does = this mean we should stop inventing new things ? IMO for someone who is star= ting to use SRv6 PHP is the least complex operational behaviour.=C2=A0

Thx,
R.


On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 1:31 AM Mark Smi= th <markzzzs= mith@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Pablo,

On Sat, 21 Dec 2019 at 04:38, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)
<pcamaril@cisco.= com> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 Hi Ron,
>
> I guess we are making some progress here but going in some circles. So= far we have moved from =E2=80=9Cthis violates RFC8200=E2=80=9D to =E2=80= =9Cthere are no use-cases or benefits=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Cthis is complex = for an ASIC=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Cwhat is the benefit again=E2=80=9D and now= back to =E2=80=9Cthis is complex for an ASIC=E2=80=9D.
>

As far as I know, the next header field in both the IPv6 fixed header
and in extension headers is immutable while the packet is travelling
within the network, as is the payload length field in the IPv6 base
fixed header.

Nothing in RFC 8200 modifies those fields while the packet is in
flight between the packet's original source and final destination, nor<= br> is there anything in RFC 8200 that specifies how to do those
modifications and any other discussion about the consequences and
considerations when doing so.


The IPsec AH header is providing integrity checking over fields in the
IPv6 packet that shouldn't be being modified while the packet is
within the network. What is and isn't protected by AH can be seen to be a specification of what processing on a packet can and cannot occur
while it is in flight across the network towards its final
destination.

Therefore, AH is really a quality assurance mechanism for the network
packet processing that RFC 8200 specifies. The processing of the
packet by the network with or without the use of AH should be the
same. AH should really only be necessary if there is a belief that the
network is likely not to be processing packets in accordance to RFC
8200, either accidentally or intentionally.


Per RFC4302 (IPsec AH),=C2=A0 the following section explicitly states which=
fields in the IPv6 header are immutable and are to be protected by AH:


3.3.3.1.2.=C2=A0 ICV Computation for IPv6

3.3.3.1.2.1.=C2=A0 Base Header Fields

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The IPv6 base header fields are classified as follows:

Immutable
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Version
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Payload Length
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Next Header
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Source Address
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Destination Address (without Routi= ng Extension Header)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Mutable but predictable
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Destination Address (with Routing = Extension Header)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Mutable (zeroed prior to ICV calculation)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0DSCP (6 bits, see RFC2474 [NBBB98]= )
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ECN (2 bits, see RFC3168 [RFB01])<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Flow Label (*)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hop Limit

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (*) The flow label described in AHv1 was mutabl= e, and in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 RFC 2460 [DH98] was potentially m= utable.=C2=A0 To retain
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 compatibility with existing AH im= plementations, the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 flow label is not included in the= ICV in AHv2.




> As for how easy or not something is, the PSP behavior has been impleme= nted and deployed (running code). The use-cases have been described and pos= itively reinforced by operators. I don't think there is any further exp= lanation to provide.
>

"Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should."=

How much troubleshooting experience have they had with this?

I think a very important factor is how easy something is to
troubleshoot - how obvious is the mechanism works; is the mechanism
consistent with existing behaviours i.e. the principle of least
surprise (removing EHs at an intermediary hop certainly isn't in IPv6,<= br> even if the intermediary hop as the packet's current DA); when it
inevitably fails, how obvious is it where the fault is likely to be;
and how quickly can a typical fault be rectified.



Regards,
Mark.




> Happy Holidays,
> Pablo.
>
>
> =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
> From: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
> Date: Tuesday, 17 December 2019 at 16:06
> To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>, "Joel M. = Halpern" <= jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> Subject: RE: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pablo,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In your message below, are you arguing that it is e= asier for the penultimate node to remove the SRH than it is for the ultimat= e node to ignore it? I think that would be a stretch.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0Ron
>
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Juniper Business Use Only
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-----Original Message-----
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0From: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril@cisco.com>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2019 4:50 AM
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; Joel M. Halpern <<= a href=3D"mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com" target=3D"_blank">jmh@joelhalpern.com= >; spring@ietf.= org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ron,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0What is the "price paid by the penultimate seg= ment"? All the current implementations do this at linerate with no per= formance degradation as I have explained in my email before.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0There is substantial benefit. Four operators have d= eployed PSP, which proves the benefit.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It enables new use-cases that have been provided by= other members in the list. [1], [2] and [5].
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0From operational perspective it is not complex as e= xplained in [3].
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Operators have expressed their value in [4] and [5]= .
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[1].- https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://ma= ilarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/wTLJQkzC6xwSNPbhB84VH0mLXx0__;!!NEt6yMaO= -gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IcdXeBzk_$ >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[2].- https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://ma= ilarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/V0ZpjVLSVZxHaBwecXFxqJjlg_c__;!!NEt6yMaO= -gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IcU9bihBc$ >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[3].- https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://ma= ilarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ssobwemrPz0uEZjvRCZP1e4l_l0__;!!NEt6yMaO= -gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4Icc_wo902$ >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[4].- https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://ma= ilarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/KXCBHT8Tpy17S5BsJXLBS35yZbk__;!!NEt6yMaO= -gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IcRXo_q-1$ >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[5].- https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://ma= ilarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ErcErN39RIlzkL5SKNVAeEWpnAI__;!!NEt6yMaO= -gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IceGPpSab$ >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Cheers,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pablo.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-----Original Message-----
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0From: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Date: Thursday, 12 December 2019 at 21:50
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com&= gt;, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Subject: RE: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pablo,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I am not convinced the benefit derive= d by the ultimate segment justifies the price paid by the penultimate segme= nt. Specifically,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- the ultimate segment benefits becau= se it doesn't have to skip over the SRH with SL =3D=3D 0
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- in order for the ultimate segment t= o derive this benefit, the penultimate segment needs to remove bytes from t= he middle of the packet and update two fields in the IPv6 header
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As Joel said, we typically don't = add options (i.e., complexity) to a specification unless there is substanti= al benefit.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ro= n
>
>
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Juniper Business Use Only
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-----Original Message-----
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On= Behalf Of Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2019 3:= 12 PM
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To: Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>; spring@ietf.org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a g= ood idea
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Joel,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01.- The use-case for PSP has already = been provided at the mailer. There are scenarios where it provides benefits= to operators.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02.- The PSP behavior is optional. It = is up to the operator in his deployment to decide whether to enable it or n= ot at one particular router.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Similarly, a vendor may decide not to= implement it. The PSP behavior has been implemented by several vendors and= deployed (see the srv6 deployment draft).
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A03.- A network may have PSP enabled at= some nodes and not at others.=C2=A0 Everything is still interoperable and = works fine.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04.- PSP is not a complex operation in= hardware (doable at linerate on existing merchant silicon).
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Example: It has been implemented and = deployed on Broadcom J/J+. If I recall correctly Broadcom Jericho+ started = shipping in March 2016! PSP is supported on this platform at linerate with = no performance degradation (neither PPPS nor BW).
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Given that this is doable in a platfo= rm from more than 3 years ago, I fail to see how you need "very specia= l provision" to do this.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Is it really something that horrible = to provide freedom of choice to the operators deploying?
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In summary, it can be implemented wit= hout any burden in hardware and deployment experience prove this is benefic= ial to operators.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pablo.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-----Original Message-----
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on= behalf of "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Date: Wednesday, 11 December 2019 at = 03:55
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Subject: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good = idea
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0For purposes of this th= read, even if you think PSP violates RFC 8200,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0let us assume that it i= s legal.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As I understand it, the= PSP situation is:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o the packet arrives at= the place (let's not argue about whether SIDs
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0are locators) identifie= d by the SID in the destination address field
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o that SID is the next = to last SID in the SID list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o that sid is marked as= / known to be PSP
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o at the intended place= in the processing pseudocode, the last (first)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0entry in the SRH is cop= ied into the destination IPv6 address field of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the packet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-> The SRH being use= d is then removed from the packet.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In order to evaluate wh= ether this is a good idea, we have to have some
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0idea of the benefit.=C2= =A0 It may be that I am missing some of the benefit,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and I would appreciate = clarification.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As far as I can tell, t= he benefit of this removal is that in exchange
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for this node doing the= work of removing the SRH, the final node in the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0SRH does not have to pr= ocess the SRH at all, as it has been removed.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I have trouble seeing h= ow that work tradeoff can be beneficial.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Removing bytes from the= middle of a packet is a complex operation.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Doing so in Silicon (we= expect this to be done in the fast path of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0significant forwarders = as I understand it) requires very special
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0provision.=C2=A0 Even i= n software, removing bytes from the middle of a packet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0requires somewhere betw= een some and a lot of extra work.=C2=A0 It is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0distinctly NOT free. >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In contrast, we have as= sumed that the work of processing SRH itself is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tractable, since otherw= ise all of SRv6 would be problematic.=C2=A0 So why is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this necessary.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Yours,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Joel
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0PS: Note that both the = MPLS case and the encapsulation case are very
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0different in that the m= aterial being removed is at the front of the IP
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0packet.=C2=A0 Pop or pr= epend are MUCH easier than middle-removal (or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0middle-insertion).
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_______________________= ________________________
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0spring mailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0spring@ietf.org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf= .org/mailman/listinfo/spring__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Uvd5DRUIJlsmob5a7r4JRgMMbZcE60= JOPIW3K2MubKpIuKXA1r78vsFpWAHa8hW2$
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_____________________________________= __________
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0spring mailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0spring@ietf.org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l= istinfo/spring__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Uvd5DRUIJlsmob5a7r4JRgMMbZcE60JOPIW3K2MubKpI= uKXA1r78vsFpWAHa8hW2$
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
_______________________________________________
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(10.201.108.64) by LHREML711-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.34) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:32:16 +0000 Received: from lhreml713-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.64) by lhreml713-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.64) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1713.5; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:32:16 +0000 Received: from DGGEML403-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.33) by lhreml713-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.64) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA) id 15.1.1713.5 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:32:16 +0000 Received: from DGGEML529-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.6.172]) by DGGEML403-HUB.china.huawei.com ([fe80::74d9:c659:fbec:21fa%31]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 19:32:12 +0800 From: "Chengli (Cheng Li)" To: Robert Raszuk , Mark Smith CC: Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "Joel M. Halpern" , "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" Thread-Topic: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea Thread-Index: AQHVr85or15yZAFUh0CJitT+otCRK6e02KSAgAGdLoCAAmwmgIAFDvkAgAThOoCAacAMgIAAn0aAgAABtYCAAJqI0A== Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:32:11 +0000 Message-ID: References: <5c2a4b36-0c59-709e-23eb-00f4aa1ce52f@joelhalpern.com> <9B89F4C2-5594-4D31-8893-21F3F4A0DF6C@cisco.com> <58ED78D3-9E0C-4556-8853-8754B361DF6D@cisco.com> <81A30B25-9857-467E-85AE-1FE84B6F3197@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.203.229] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB0292D05Adggeml529mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: 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Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "Joel M. Halpern" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009f40c4059f7921e5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:44:53 -0000 --0000000000009f40c4059f7921e5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 26 Feb 2020, 21:07 Robert Raszuk, wrote: > > So now we have one more to Pablo's list: "Let's not use it as it is hard > to troubleshoot" ... > Listing objections doesn't mean they've been addressed. > Clearly each new tool has a learning curve > IPv6 is not a new tool. It is 21 years since I started learning and using it. In that time, no changes have been made to it that are as radical as removing EHs while packets are in flight would be. Radical changes have to have exceptional justification when something is so old, widely understood, widely documented in books and training materials, many people have been trained on and is now quite rapidly becoming widely deployed. and no doubt not everyone will know how to use it. But does this mean we > should stop inventing new things ? IMO for someone who is starting to use > SRv6 PHP is the least complex operational behaviour. > Structurally modifying packets in flight is a far more complex operation than simply forwarding them. The ideal is to minimise and ideally avoid packet modifications in flight, so what what arrives at the final destination is as close as possible to what as sent by the original source. This forces simplicity in the network and makes troubleshooting simpler because the number of changes and devices that can make changes is reduced. I think the original designers of IP had a goal of "read only" forwarding. Early versions of IP (e.g. RFC675, "IPv1", 1974) didn't have a TTL field, and I think they only added it because they eventually realised after 4 years that they weren't going to come up with a routing protocol that didn't have transient loops. Mark. > Thx, > R. > > > On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 1:31 AM Mark Smith wrote= : >> >>> Hi Pablo, >>> >>> On Sat, 21 Dec 2019 at 04:38, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > Hi Ron, >>> > >>> > I guess we are making some progress here but going in some circles. S= o >>> far we have moved from =E2=80=9Cthis violates RFC8200=E2=80=9D to =E2= =80=9Cthere are no use-cases >>> or benefits=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Cthis is complex for an ASIC=E2=80=9D t= o =E2=80=9Cwhat is the benefit >>> again=E2=80=9D and now back to =E2=80=9Cthis is complex for an ASIC=E2= =80=9D. >>> > >>> >>> As far as I know, the next header field in both the IPv6 fixed header >>> and in extension headers is immutable while the packet is travelling >>> within the network, as is the payload length field in the IPv6 base >>> fixed header. >>> >>> Nothing in RFC 8200 modifies those fields while the packet is in >>> flight between the packet's original source and final destination, nor >>> is there anything in RFC 8200 that specifies how to do those >>> modifications and any other discussion about the consequences and >>> considerations when doing so. >>> >>> >>> The IPsec AH header is providing integrity checking over fields in the >>> IPv6 packet that shouldn't be being modified while the packet is >>> within the network. What is and isn't protected by AH can be seen to >>> be a specification of what processing on a packet can and cannot occur >>> while it is in flight across the network towards its final >>> destination. >>> >>> Therefore, AH is really a quality assurance mechanism for the network >>> packet processing that RFC 8200 specifies. The processing of the >>> packet by the network with or without the use of AH should be the >>> same. AH should really only be necessary if there is a belief that the >>> network is likely not to be processing packets in accordance to RFC >>> 8200, either accidentally or intentionally. >>> >>> >>> Per RFC4302 (IPsec AH), the following section explicitly states which >>> fields in the IPv6 header are immutable and are to be protected by AH: >>> >>> >>> 3.3.3.1.2. ICV Computation for IPv6 >>> >>> 3.3.3.1.2.1. Base Header Fields >>> >>> The IPv6 base header fields are classified as follows: >>> >>> Immutable >>> Version >>> Payload Length >>> Next Header >>> Source Address >>> Destination Address (without Routing Extension Header) >>> >>> Mutable but predictable >>> Destination Address (with Routing Extension Header) >>> >>> Mutable (zeroed prior to ICV calculation) >>> DSCP (6 bits, see RFC2474 [NBBB98]) >>> ECN (2 bits, see RFC3168 [RFB01]) >>> Flow Label (*) >>> Hop Limit >>> >>> (*) The flow label described in AHv1 was mutable, and in >>> RFC 2460 [DH98] was potentially mutable. To retain >>> compatibility with existing AH implementations, the >>> flow label is not included in the ICV in AHv2. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > As for how easy or not something is, the PSP behavior has been >>> implemented and deployed (running code). The use-cases have been descri= bed >>> and positively reinforced by operators. I don't think there is any furt= her >>> explanation to provide. >>> > >>> >>> "Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should." >>> >>> How much troubleshooting experience have they had with this? >>> >>> I think a very important factor is how easy something is to >>> troubleshoot - how obvious is the mechanism works; is the mechanism >>> consistent with existing behaviours i.e. the principle of least >>> surprise (removing EHs at an intermediary hop certainly isn't in IPv6, >>> even if the intermediary hop as the packet's current DA); when it >>> inevitably fails, how obvious is it where the fault is likely to be; >>> and how quickly can a typical fault be rectified. >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> Mark. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > Happy Holidays, >>> > Pablo. >>> > >>> > >>> > =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message----- >>> > From: Ron Bonica >>> > Date: Tuesday, 17 December 2019 at 16:06 >>> > To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" , "Joel M. >>> Halpern" , "spring@ietf.org" >>> > Subject: RE: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea >>> > >>> > Pablo, >>> > >>> > In your message below, are you arguing that it is easier for the >>> penultimate node to remove the SRH than it is for the ultimate node to >>> ignore it? I think that would be a stretch. >>> > >>> > >>> Ron >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Juniper Business Use Only >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) >>> > Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2019 4:50 AM >>> > To: Ron Bonica ; Joel M. Halpern < >>> jmh@joelhalpern.com>; spring@ietf.org >>> > Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea >>> > >>> > Ron, >>> > >>> > What is the "price paid by the penultimate segment"? All the >>> current implementations do this at linerate with no performance degrada= tion >>> as I have explained in my email before. >>> > >>> > There is substantial benefit. Four operators have deployed PSP, >>> which proves the benefit. >>> > It enables new use-cases that have been provided by other members >>> in the list. [1], [2] and [5]. >>> > From operational perspective it is not complex as explained in [3= ]. >>> > Operators have expressed their value in [4] and [5]. >>> > >>> > [1].- >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sprin= g/wTLJQkzC6xwSNPbhB84VH0mLXx0__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6= Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IcdXeBzk_$ >>> > [2].- >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sprin= g/V0ZpjVLSVZxHaBwecXFxqJjlg_c__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6= Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IcU9bihBc$ >>> > [3].- >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sprin= g/ssobwemrPz0uEZjvRCZP1e4l_l0__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6= Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4Icc_wo902$ >>> > [4].- >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sprin= g/KXCBHT8Tpy17S5BsJXLBS35yZbk__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6= Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IcRXo_q-1$ >>> > [5].- >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/sprin= g/ErcErN39RIlzkL5SKNVAeEWpnAI__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6= Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IceGPpSab$ >>> > >>> > Cheers, >>> > Pablo. >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: Ron Bonica >>> > Date: Thursday, 12 December 2019 at 21:50 >>> > To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" , "Joel M. >>> Halpern" , "spring@ietf.org" >>> > Subject: RE: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea >>> > >>> > Pablo, >>> > >>> > I am not convinced the benefit derived by the ultimate segmen= t >>> justifies the price paid by the penultimate segment. Specifically, >>> > >>> > - the ultimate segment benefits because it doesn't have to >>> skip over the SRH with SL =3D=3D 0 >>> > - in order for the ultimate segment to derive this benefit, >>> the penultimate segment needs to remove bytes from the middle of the pa= cket >>> and update two fields in the IPv6 header >>> > >>> > As Joel said, we typically don't add options (i.e., >>> complexity) to a specification unless there is substantial benefit. >>> > >>> > Ron >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Juniper Business Use Only >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: spring On Behalf Of Pablo >>> Camarillo (pcamaril) >>> > Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2019 3:12 PM >>> > To: Joel M. Halpern ; spring@ietf.org >>> > Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea >>> > >>> > Joel, >>> > >>> > 1.- The use-case for PSP has already been provided at the >>> mailer. There are scenarios where it provides benefits to operators. >>> > >>> > 2.- The PSP behavior is optional. It is up to the operator in >>> his deployment to decide whether to enable it or not at one particular >>> router. >>> > Similarly, a vendor may decide not to implement it. The PSP >>> behavior has been implemented by several vendors and deployed (see the = srv6 >>> deployment draft). >>> > >>> > 3.- A network may have PSP enabled at some nodes and not at >>> others. Everything is still interoperable and works fine. >>> > >>> > 4.- PSP is not a complex operation in hardware (doable at >>> linerate on existing merchant silicon). >>> > Example: It has been implemented and deployed on Broadcom >>> J/J+. If I recall correctly Broadcom Jericho+ started shipping in March >>> 2016! PSP is supported on this platform at linerate with no performance >>> degradation (neither PPPS nor BW). >>> > Given that this is doable in a platform from more than 3 year= s >>> ago, I fail to see how you need "very special provision" to do this. >>> > >>> > Is it really something that horrible to provide freedom of >>> choice to the operators deploying? >>> > >>> > In summary, it can be implemented without any burden in >>> hardware and deployment experience prove this is beneficial to operator= s. >>> > >>> > Thanks, >>> > Pablo. >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: spring on behalf of "Joel M. >>> Halpern" >>> > Date: Wednesday, 11 December 2019 at 03:55 >>> > To: "spring@ietf.org" >>> > Subject: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea >>> > >>> > For purposes of this thread, even if you think PSP >>> violates RFC 8200, >>> > let us assume that it is legal. >>> > >>> > As I understand it, the PSP situation is: >>> > o the packet arrives at the place (let's not argue about >>> whether SIDs >>> > are locators) identified by the SID in the destination >>> address field >>> > o that SID is the next to last SID in the SID list >>> > o that sid is marked as / known to be PSP >>> > o at the intended place in the processing pseudocode, the >>> last (first) >>> > entry in the SRH is copied into the destination IPv6 >>> address field of >>> > the packet >>> > -> The SRH being used is then removed from the packet. >>> > >>> > In order to evaluate whether this is a good idea, we have >>> to have some >>> > idea of the benefit. It may be that I am missing some of >>> the benefit, >>> > and I would appreciate clarification. >>> > As far as I can tell, the benefit of this removal is that >>> in exchange >>> > for this node doing the work of removing the SRH, the >>> final node in the >>> > SRH does not have to process the SRH at all, as it has >>> been removed. >>> > >>> > I have trouble seeing how that work tradeoff can be >>> beneficial. >>> > Removing bytes from the middle of a packet is a complex >>> operation. >>> > Doing so in Silicon (we expect this to be done in the fas= t >>> path of >>> > significant forwarders as I understand it) requires very >>> special >>> > provision. Even in software, removing bytes from the >>> middle of a packet >>> > requires somewhere between some and a lot of extra work. >>> It is >>> > distinctly NOT free. >>> > >>> > In contrast, we have assumed that the work of processing >>> SRH itself is >>> > tractable, since otherwise all of SRv6 would be >>> problematic. So why is >>> > this necessary. >>> > >>> > Yours, >>> > Joel >>> > >>> > PS: Note that both the MPLS case and the encapsulation >>> case are very >>> > different in that the material being removed is at the >>> front of the IP >>> > packet. Pop or prepend are MUCH easier than >>> middle-removal (or >>> > middle-insertion). >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > spring mailing list >>> > spring@ietf.org >>> > >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sprin= g__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Uvd5DRUIJlsmob5a7r4JRgMMbZcE60JOPIW3K2MubKpIuKXA1r78vsFpW= AHa8hW2$ >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > spring mailing list >>> > spring@ietf.org >>> > >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sprin= g__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Uvd5DRUIJlsmob5a7r4JRgMMbZcE60JOPIW3K2MubKpIuKXA1r78vsFpW= AHa8hW2$ >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > spring mailing list >>> > spring@ietf.org >>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> spring mailing list >>> spring@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >>> >> --0000000000009f40c4059f7921e5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, 26 Feb 2020, 21:07 Robert Raszuk, <robert@r= aszuk.net> wrote:

So now we have one more to Pablo&#= 39;s list: "Let's not use it as it is hard to troubleshoot" .= ..=C2=A0
<= br>

Listing objections d= oesn't mean they've been addressed.




Clearly each new tool has a learning=C2=A0curve
=

IPv6 is not a new tool.

It is 21 years since I started learning and using it. In that time, no ch= anges have been made to it that are as radical as removing EHs while packet= s are in flight would be.

Radical changes have to have exceptional justification when something is = so old, widely understood, widely documented in books and training material= s, many people have been trained on and is now quite rapidly becoming widel= y deployed.

and n= o doubt not everyone will know how to use it. But does this mean we should = stop inventing new things ? IMO for someone who is starting to use SRv6 PHP= is the least complex operational behaviour.=C2=A0
=

Structurally modi= fying packets in flight is a far more complex operation than simply forward= ing them.

The ideal is t= o minimise and ideally avoid packet modifications in flight, so what what a= rrives at the final destination is as close as possible to what as sent by = the original source. This forces simplicity in the network and makes troubl= eshooting simpler because the number of changes and devices that can make c= hanges is reduced.

I thi= nk the original designers of IP had a goal of "read only" forward= ing. Early versions of IP (e.g. RFC675, "IPv1", 1974) didn't = have a TTL field, and I think they only added it because they eventually re= alised after 4 years that they weren't going to come up with a routing = protocol that didn't have transient loops.

<= /div>
Mark.


Thx,
R.


On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 1:31 AM Mark= Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote:
= Hi Pablo,

On Sat, 21 Dec 2019 at 04:38, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)
<pcamaril@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 Hi Ron,
>
> I guess we are making some progress here but going in some circles. So= far we have moved from =E2=80=9Cthis violates RFC8200=E2=80=9D to =E2=80= =9Cthere are no use-cases or benefits=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Cthis is complex = for an ASIC=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Cwhat is the benefit again=E2=80=9D and now= back to =E2=80=9Cthis is complex for an ASIC=E2=80=9D.
>

As far as I know, the next header field in both the IPv6 fixed header
and in extension headers is immutable while the packet is travelling
within the network, as is the payload length field in the IPv6 base
fixed header.

Nothing in RFC 8200 modifies those fields while the packet is in
flight between the packet's original source and final destination, nor<= br> is there anything in RFC 8200 that specifies how to do those
modifications and any other discussion about the consequences and
considerations when doing so.


The IPsec AH header is providing integrity checking over fields in the
IPv6 packet that shouldn't be being modified while the packet is
within the network. What is and isn't protected by AH can be seen to be a specification of what processing on a packet can and cannot occur
while it is in flight across the network towards its final
destination.

Therefore, AH is really a quality assurance mechanism for the network
packet processing that RFC 8200 specifies. The processing of the
packet by the network with or without the use of AH should be the
same. AH should really only be necessary if there is a belief that the
network is likely not to be processing packets in accordance to RFC
8200, either accidentally or intentionally.


Per RFC4302 (IPsec AH),=C2=A0 the following section explicitly states which=
fields in the IPv6 header are immutable and are to be protected by AH:


3.3.3.1.2.=C2=A0 ICV Computation for IPv6

3.3.3.1.2.1.=C2=A0 Base Header Fields

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The IPv6 base header fields are classified as follows:

Immutable
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Version
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Payload Length
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Next Header
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Source Address
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Destination Address (without Routi= ng Extension Header)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Mutable but predictable
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Destination Address (with Routing = Extension Header)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Mutable (zeroed prior to ICV calculation)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0DSCP (6 bits, see RFC2474 [NBBB98]= )
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ECN (2 bits, see RFC3168 [RFB01])<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Flow Label (*)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hop Limit

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (*) The flow label described in AHv1 was mutabl= e, and in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 RFC 2460 [DH98] was potentially m= utable.=C2=A0 To retain
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 compatibility with existing AH im= plementations, the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 flow label is not included in the= ICV in AHv2.




> As for how easy or not something is, the PSP behavior has been impleme= nted and deployed (running code). The use-cases have been described and pos= itively reinforced by operators. I don't think there is any further exp= lanation to provide.
>

"Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should."=

How much troubleshooting experience have they had with this?

I think a very important factor is how easy something is to
troubleshoot - how obvious is the mechanism works; is the mechanism
consistent with existing behaviours i.e. the principle of least
surprise (removing EHs at an intermediary hop certainly isn't in IPv6,<= br> even if the intermediary hop as the packet's current DA); when it
inevitably fails, how obvious is it where the fault is likely to be;
and how quickly can a typical fault be rectified.



Regards,
Mark.




> Happy Holidays,
> Pablo.
>
>
> =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
> From: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
> Date: Tuesday, 17 December 2019 at 16:06
> To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cis= co.com>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern= .com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ie= tf.org>
> Subject: RE: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pablo,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In your message below, are you arguing that it is e= asier for the penultimate node to remove the SRH than it is for the ultimat= e node to ignore it? I think that would be a stretch.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0Ron
>
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Juniper Business Use Only
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-----Original Message-----
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0From: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pca= maril@cisco.com>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2019 4:50 AM
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net<= /a>>; Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>; spring@ietf.org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ron,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0What is the "price paid by the penultimate seg= ment"? All the current implementations do this at linerate with no per= formance degradation as I have explained in my email before.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0There is substantial benefit. Four operators have d= eployed PSP, which proves the benefit.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It enables new use-cases that have been provided by= other members in the list. [1], [2] and [5].
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0From operational perspective it is not complex as e= xplained in [3].
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Operators have expressed their value in [4] and [5]= .
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[1].- https://urldefen= se.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/wTLJQkzC6xwSNPbhB8= 4VH0mLXx0__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPk= WwaIL4IcdXeBzk_$
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[2].- https://urldefen= se.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/V0ZpjVLSVZxHaBwecX= FxqJjlg_c__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPk= WwaIL4IcU9bihBc$
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[3].- https://urldefen= se.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ssobwemrPz0uEZjvRC= ZP1e4l_l0__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPk= WwaIL4Icc_wo902$
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[4].- https://urldefen= se.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/KXCBHT8Tpy17S5BsJX= LBS35yZbk__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPk= WwaIL4IcRXo_q-1$
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[5].- https://urldefen= se.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ErcErN39RIlzkL5SKN= VAeEWpnAI__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPk= WwaIL4IceGPpSab$
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Cheers,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pablo.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-----Original Message-----
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0From: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.ne= t>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Date: Thursday, 12 December 2019 at 21:50
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "spring@ietf.org" &= lt;spring@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Subject: RE: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pablo,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I am not convinced the benefit derive= d by the ultimate segment justifies the price paid by the penultimate segme= nt. Specifically,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- the ultimate segment benefits becau= se it doesn't have to skip over the SRH with SL =3D=3D 0
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- in order for the ultimate segment t= o derive this benefit, the penultimate segment needs to remove bytes from t= he middle of the packet and update two fields in the IPv6 header
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As Joel said, we typically don't = add options (i.e., complexity) to a specification unless there is substanti= al benefit.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ro= n
>
>
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Juniper Business Use Only
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-----Original Message-----
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0From: spring <spri= ng-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2019 3:= 12 PM
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To: Joel M. Halpern <j= mh@joelhalpern.com>; spring@ietf.org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a g= ood idea
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Joel,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01.- The use-case for PSP has already = been provided at the mailer. There are scenarios where it provides benefits= to operators.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02.- The PSP behavior is optional. It = is up to the operator in his deployment to decide whether to enable it or n= ot at one particular router.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Similarly, a vendor may decide not to= implement it. The PSP behavior has been implemented by several vendors and= deployed (see the srv6 deployment draft).
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A03.- A network may have PSP enabled at= some nodes and not at others.=C2=A0 Everything is still interoperable and = works fine.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04.- PSP is not a complex operation in= hardware (doable at linerate on existing merchant silicon).
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Example: It has been implemented and = deployed on Broadcom J/J+. If I recall correctly Broadcom Jericho+ started = shipping in March 2016! PSP is supported on this platform at linerate with = no performance degradation (neither PPPS nor BW).
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Given that this is doable in a platfo= rm from more than 3 years ago, I fail to see how you need "very specia= l provision" to do this.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Is it really something that horrible = to provide freedom of choice to the operators deploying?
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In summary, it can be implemented wit= hout any burden in hardware and deployment experience prove this is benefic= ial to operators.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pablo.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-----Original Message-----
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0From: spring <spri= ng-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Date: Wednesday, 11 December 2019 at = 03:55
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To: "spring@ietf.org= " <spring@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Subject: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good = idea
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0For purposes of this th= read, even if you think PSP violates RFC 8200,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0let us assume that it i= s legal.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As I understand it, the= PSP situation is:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o the packet arrives at= the place (let's not argue about whether SIDs
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0are locators) identifie= d by the SID in the destination address field
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o that SID is the next = to last SID in the SID list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o that sid is marked as= / known to be PSP
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o at the intended place= in the processing pseudocode, the last (first)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0entry in the SRH is cop= ied into the destination IPv6 address field of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the packet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-> The SRH being use= d is then removed from the packet.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In order to evaluate wh= ether this is a good idea, we have to have some
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0idea of the benefit.=C2= =A0 It may be that I am missing some of the benefit,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and I would appreciate = clarification.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As far as I can tell, t= he benefit of this removal is that in exchange
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for this node doing the= work of removing the SRH, the final node in the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0SRH does not have to pr= ocess the SRH at all, as it has been removed.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I have trouble seeing h= ow that work tradeoff can be beneficial.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Removing bytes from the= middle of a packet is a complex operation.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Doing so in Silicon (we= expect this to be done in the fast path of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0significant forwarders = as I understand it) requires very special
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0provision.=C2=A0 Even i= n software, removing bytes from the middle of a packet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0requires somewhere betw= een some and a lot of extra work.=C2=A0 It is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0distinctly NOT free. >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In contrast, we have as= sumed that the work of processing SRH itself is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tractable, since otherw= ise all of SRv6 would be problematic.=C2=A0 So why is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this necessary.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Yours,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Joel
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0PS: Note that both the = MPLS case and the encapsulation case are very
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0different in that the m= aterial being removed is at the front of the IP
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0packet.=C2=A0 Pop or pr= epend are MUCH easier than middle-removal (or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0middle-insertion).
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_______________________= ________________________
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0spring mailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0spring@ietf.org=
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>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_____________________________________= __________
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0spring mailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0spring@ietf.org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://= www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Uvd5DRUIJlsmob5a7r4JRg= MMbZcE60JOPIW3K2MubKpIuKXA1r78vsFpWAHa8hW2$
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=0A
 
From:&n= bsp;Chengli (Cheng Li)
Date: 20= 20-02-26 19:32
=
Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea
=
=0A=0A
=0A

Agree! I= thought these problems have already been closed for a while since we have= a lot of discussion for a while.=0A

=0A

 

= =0A

After two mont= hs not paying attention to the mailing list, the discussion is still there= ?

=0A

 

=0A

Clearly, we had a  lot of discussion already, = please refs to the links in the below emails. From tech aspect, agree with= Jingrong=E2=80=99s POV. Copied below.

=0A

 

= =0A

Best Regards,<= o:p>

=0A

Cheng

=0A

 

=0A

 

=0A

Hi Mark,

=0A

I th= ink both AH and PSP are optional.

=0A

If AH is desired to deploy, then the operator can choose n= ot to use PSP.

=0A

If = AH is not deployed, and the operator has its requirements of incremental-d= eployment, then the operator can choose to use PSP.

=0A

If the already deployed PSP is removed f= rom the draft, then I think it's backward for interoperation.=0A

 

=0A

RFC4301:

=0A

3.2.  How IPsec Works

=0A

 

=0A

   IPsec uses two protocols to provide tra= ffic security services --

=0A

   Authentication Header (AH) and Encapsulating Security= Payload (ESP).

=0A

&n= bsp;  Both protocols are described in detail in their respective RFCs=

=0A

   [Ken= 05b, Ken05a].  IPsec implementations MUST support ESP and MAY

=0A

   support AH. = (Support for AH has been downgraded to MAY because

=0A

   experience has shown that th= ere are very few contexts in which ESP

=0A

   cannot provide the requisite security se= rvices.  Note that ESP can be

=0A

   used to provide only integrity, without conf= identiality, making it

=0A

   comparable to AH in most contexts.)

=0A

 

=0A

Thanks,

=0A

Jingrong

=0A

 

=0A

 

=0A

 

=0A

From: = spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org]=0AOn Behalf Of Robert Raszu= k
=0ASent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 6:07 PM
=0ATo:= Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
=0ACc: Ron Bonica <= ;rbonica@juniper.net>; spring@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhal= pern.com>; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril@cisco.com>
=0A= Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea

= =0A

 

=0A
= =0A
=0A

 

= =0A
=0A
=0A

So now we hav= e one more to Pablo's list: "Let's not use it as it is hard to troubleshoo= t" ... 

=0A
=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A
=0A

Clearly each new tool has a learning curve and = no doubt not everyone will know how to use it. But does this mean we shoul= d stop inventing new things ? IMO for someone who is starting to use SRv6 = PHP is the least complex operational behaviour. 

=0A=0A
=0A

 =0A

=0A
=0A

Thx,
=0A= R.

=0A
=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A
=0A

 

=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A

On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 1:31 AM Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote:=0A

=0A
=0A
Hi Pablo,
=0A
=0AOn Sa= t, 21 Dec 2019 at 04:38, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)
=0A<pcamaril@cisco.com> wrote:
=0A>
=0A&g= t;  Hi Ron,
=0A>
=0A> I guess we are making some progress= here but going in some circles. So far we have moved from =E2=80=9Cthis v= iolates RFC8200=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Cthere are no use-cases or benefits=E2= =80=9D to =E2=80=9Cthis is complex for an ASIC=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Cwhat i= s the benefit again=E2=80=9D and now back to =E2=80=9Cthis is complex=0A f= or an ASIC=E2=80=9D.
=0A>
=0A
=0AAs far as I know, the next he= ader field in both the IPv6 fixed header
=0Aand in extension headers is= immutable while the packet is travelling
=0Awithin the network, as is = the payload length field in the IPv6 base
=0Afixed header.
=0A
= =0ANothing in RFC 8200 modifies those fields while the packet is in
=0A= flight between the packet's original source and final destination, nor
= =0Ais there anything in RFC 8200 that specifies how to do those
=0Amodi= fications and any other discussion about the consequences and
=0Aconsid= erations when doing so.
=0A
=0A
=0AThe IPsec AH header is providi= ng integrity checking over fields in the
=0AIPv6 packet that shouldn't = be being modified while the packet is
=0Awithin the network. What is an= d isn't protected by AH can be seen to
=0Abe a specification of what pr= ocessing on a packet can and cannot occur
=0Awhile it is in flight acro= ss the network towards its final
=0Adestination.
=0A
=0ATherefore= , AH is really a quality assurance mechanism for the network
=0Apacket = processing that RFC 8200 specifies. The processing of the
=0Apacket by = the network with or without the use of AH should be the
=0Asame. AH sho= uld really only be necessary if there is a belief that the
=0Anetwork i= s likely not to be processing packets in accordance to RFC
=0A8200, eit= her accidentally or intentionally.
=0A
=0A
=0APer RFC4302 (IPsec = AH),  the following section explicitly states which
=0Afields in t= he IPv6 header are immutable and are to be protected by AH:
=0A
=0A<= br>=0A3.3.3.1.2.  ICV Computation for IPv6
=0A
=0A3.3.3.1.2.1.&= nbsp; Base Header Fields
=0A
=0A   The IPv6 base header fi= elds are classified as follows:
=0A
=0AImmutable
=0A   =        Version
=0A        &nbs= p;  Payload Length
=0A           Nex= t Header
=0A           Source Address
= =0A           Destination Address (without R= outing Extension Header)
=0A
=0A   Mutable but predictable=
=0A           Destination Address (with = Routing Extension Header)
=0A
=0A   Mutable (zeroed prior = to ICV calculation)
=0A           DSCP (6= bits, see RFC2474 [NBBB98])
=0A          &nbs= p;ECN (2 bits, see RFC3168 [RFB01])
=0A        &nbs= p;  Flow Label (*)
=0A           Hop= Limit
=0A
=0A        (*) The flow label describ= ed in AHv1 was mutable, and in
=0A          &n= bsp; RFC 2460 [DH98] was potentially mutable.  To retain
=0A =           compatibility with existing AH impleme= ntations, the
=0A            flow label i= s not included in the ICV in AHv2.
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0A> = As for how easy or not something is, the PSP behavior has been implemented= and deployed (running code). The use-cases have been described and positi= vely reinforced by operators. I don't think there is any further explanati= on to provide.
=0A>
=0A
=0A"Just because you can do something,= doesn't mean you should."
=0A
=0AHow much troubleshooting experienc= e have they had with this?
=0A
=0AI think a very important factor is= how easy something is to
=0Atroubleshoot - how obvious is the mechanis= m works; is the mechanism
=0Aconsistent with existing behaviours i.e. t= he principle of least
=0Asurprise (removing EHs at an intermediary hop = certainly isn't in IPv6,
=0Aeven if the intermediary hop as the packet'= s current DA); when it
=0Ainevitably fails, how obvious is it where the= fault is likely to be;
=0Aand how quickly can a typical fault be recti= fied.
=0A
=0A
=0A
=0ARegards,
=0AMark.
=0A
=0A
=0A=
=0A
=0A> Happy Holidays,
=0A> Pablo.
=0A>
=0A>=
=0A> =EF= =BB=BF-----Original Message-----
=0A> From: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
=0A> Dat= e: Tuesday, 17 December 2019 at 16:06
=0A> To: "Pablo Camarillo (pca= maril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>, = "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.co= m>, "spring@ietf.org"=0A <spring@ietf.org>
=0A> Subject: RE: = [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea
=0A>
=0A>     = Pablo,
=0A>
=0A>     In your message below, are= you arguing that it is easier for the penultimate node to remove the SRH = than it is for the ultimate node to ignore it? I think that would be a str= etch.
=0A>
=0A>             = ;                     &n= bsp;                    =                     &nb= sp;      Ron
=0A>
=0A>
=0A>
=0A>&nb= sp;    Juniper Business Use Only
=0A>
=0A>  &nb= sp;  -----Original Message-----
=0A>     From: P= ablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril@ci= sco.com>
=0A>     Sent: Saturday, December 14,= 2019 4:50 AM
=0A>     To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>;=0Aspring@ietf.org
=0A>     Subje= ct: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea
=0A>
=0A>   = ;  Ron,
=0A>
=0A>     What is the "price p= aid by the penultimate segment"? All the current implementations do this a= t linerate with no performance degradation as I have explained in my email= before.
=0A>
=0A>     There is substantial ben= efit. Four operators have deployed PSP, which proves the benefit.
=0A&g= t;     It enables new use-cases that have been provided by = other members in the list. [1], [2] and [5].
=0A>     = ;From operational perspective it is not complex as explained in [3].
= =0A>     Operators have expressed their value in [4] and= [5]..
=0A>
=0A>     [1].- =0Ahttps://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ie= tf.org/arch/msg/spring/wTLJQkzC6xwSNPbhB84VH0mLXx0__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_Zy= DvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IcdXeBzk_$
=0A>&= nbsp;    [2].- =0Ahttps= ://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/V0ZpjV= LSVZxHaBwecXFxqJjlg_c__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30eGa= DVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IcU9bihBc$
=0A>     [3].- =0Ahttps://urldefense.com/v3/__https:= //mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ssobwemrPz0uEZjvRCZP1e4l_l0__;!!NEt= 6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4Icc_wo902$=
=0A>     [4].- =0Ahttps://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/m= sg/spring/KXCBHT8Tpy17S5BsJXLBS35yZbk__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6= RiBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IcRXo_q-1$
=0A>    =  [5].- =0Ahttps://urldefense= .com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ErcErN39RIlzkL5SKNV= AeEWpnAI__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPk= WwaIL4IceGPpSab$
=0A>
=0A>     Cheers,
= =0A>     Pablo.
=0A>
=0A>     = ;-----Original Message-----
=0A>     From: Ron Bonica= <rbonica@juniper.net>
=0A&= gt;     Date: Thursday, 12 December 2019 at 21:50
=0A>= ;     To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "spring@ietf.org"=0A <spr= ing@ietf.org>
=0A>     Subject: RE: [spring] I= s srv6 PSP a good idea
=0A>
=0A>        &n= bsp;Pablo,
=0A>
=0A>         I am not= convinced the benefit derived by the ultimate segment justifies the price= paid by the penultimate segment. Specifically,
=0A>
=0A> = ;        - the ultimate segment benefits because it do= esn't have to skip over the SRH with SL =3D=3D 0
=0A>    &= nbsp;    - in order for the ultimate segment to derive this bene= fit, the penultimate segment needs to remove bytes from the middle of the = packet and update two fields in the IPv6 header
=0A>
=0A> = ;        As Joel said, we typically don't add options = (i.e., complexity) to a specification unless there is substantial benefit.=
=0A>
=0A>              &nb= sp;                     =                     &nbs= p;    Ron
=0A>
=0A>
=0A>
=0A>
=0A>=          Juniper Business Use Only
=0A>
= =0A>         -----Original Message-----
=0A= >         From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Pablo Cama= rillo (pcamaril)
=0A>         Sent: Wednesd= ay, December 11, 2019 3:12 PM
=0A>         = To: Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.= com>;=0Aspring@ietf.org
=0A&g= t;         Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a go= od idea
=0A>
=0A>         Joel,
= =0A>
=0A>         1.- The use-case for P= SP has already been provided at the mailer. There are scenarios where it p= rovides benefits to operators.
=0A>
=0A>      &= nbsp;  2.- The PSP behavior is optional. It is up to the operator in = his deployment to decide whether to enable it or not at one particular rou= ter.
=0A>         Similarly, a vendor may d= ecide not to implement it. The PSP behavior has been implemented by severa= l vendors and deployed (see the srv6 deployment draft).
=0A>
=0A&= gt;         3.- A network may have PSP enabled at= some nodes and not at others.  Everything is still interoperable and= works fine.
=0A>
=0A>         4.- PS= P is not a complex operation in hardware (doable at linerate on existing m= erchant silicon).
=0A>         Example: It = has been implemented and deployed on Broadcom J/J+. If I recall correctly = Broadcom Jericho+ started shipping in March 2016! PSP is supported on this= platform at linerate with no performance degradation (neither PPPS nor BW= ).
=0A>         Given that this is doable i= n a platform from more than 3 years ago, I fail to see how you need "very = special provision" to do this.
=0A>
=0A>      &= nbsp;  Is it really something that horrible to provide freedom of cho= ice to the operators deploying?
=0A>
=0A>      =    In summary, it can be implemented without any burden in hardw= are and deployment experience prove this is beneficial to operators.
= =0A>
=0A>         Thanks,
=0A>&nbs= p;        Pablo.
=0A>
=0A>    &n= bsp;    -----Original Message-----
=0A>     = ;    From: spring <spri= ng-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
=0A>   =      Date: Wednesday, 11 December 2019 at 03:55
=0A>=          To: "sprin= g@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org><= br>=0A>         Subject: [spring] Is srv6 PSP = a good idea
=0A>
=0A>           =  For purposes of this thread, even if you think PSP violates RFC 820= 0,
=0A>             let us assume= that it is legal.
=0A>
=0A>         =    As I understand it, the PSP situation is:
=0A>  &= nbsp;          o the packet arrives at the place = (let's not argue about whether SIDs
=0A>        =      are locators) identified by the SID in the destination= address field
=0A>             o= that SID is the next to last SID in the SID list
=0A>    =          o that sid is marked as / known to be PS= P
=0A>             o at the inten= ded place in the processing pseudocode, the last (first)
=0A>  =            entry in the SRH is copied into t= he destination IPv6 address field of
=0A>       =      the packet
=0A>        &nbs= p;    -> The SRH being used is then removed from the packet.<= br>=0A>
=0A>             In or= der to evaluate whether this is a good idea, we have to have some
=0A&g= t;             idea of the benefit.&nbs= p; It may be that I am missing some of the benefit,
=0A>   = ;          and I would appreciate clarification.<= br>=0A>             As far as I can = tell, the benefit of this removal is that in exchange
=0A>  &nb= sp;          for this node doing the work of remo= ving the SRH, the final node in the
=0A>        =      SRH does not have to process the SRH at all, as it has= been removed.
=0A>
=0A>          &nb= sp;  I have trouble seeing how that work tradeoff can be beneficial.<= br>=0A>             Removing bytes f= rom the middle of a packet is a complex operation.
=0A>   =          Doing so in Silicon (we expect this to = be done in the fast path of
=0A>          &= nbsp;  significant forwarders as I understand it) requires very speci= al
=0A>             provision.&nb= sp; Even in software, removing bytes from the middle of a packet
=0A>= ;             requires somewhere betwee= n some and a lot of extra work.  It is
=0A>     =        distinctly NOT free.
=0A>
=0A>&nbs= p;            In contrast, we have assumed t= hat the work of processing SRH itself is
=0A>      &n= bsp;      tractable, since otherwise all of SRv6 would be p= roblematic.  So why is
=0A>          &= nbsp;  this necessary.
=0A>
=0A>      &nbs= p;      Yours,
=0A>         =    Joel
=0A>
=0A>         =    PS: Note that both the MPLS case and the encapsulation case = are very
=0A>             differe= nt in that the material being removed is at the front of the IP
=0A>=              packet.  Pop or prepe= nd are MUCH easier than middle-removal (or
=0A>      =        middle-insertion).
=0A>
=0A>  =            _________________________________= ______________
=0A>             s= pring mailing list
=0A>            &nb= sp;spring@ietf.org
=0A>  &nbs= p;          https://urldefense.com/v= 3/__https://www.ietf..org/mailman/listinfo/spring__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Uvd5DRUI= Jlsmob5a7r4JRgMMbZcE60JOPIW3K2MubKpIuKXA1r78vsFpWAHa8hW2$
=0A>=0A>
=0A>         ____________________= ___________________________
=0A>         sp= ring mailing list
=0A>         spring@ietf.org
=0A>       = ;  https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mail= man/listinfo/spring__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Uvd5DRUIJlsmob5a7r4JRgMMbZcE60JOPIW3K2= MubKpIuKXA1r78vsFpWAHa8hW2$
=0A>
=0A>
=0A>
=0A>= ; _______________________________________________
=0A> spring mailin= g list
=0A> spring@ietf.org
=0A= > https://www.ietf.= org/mailman/listinfo/spring
=0A
=0A_____________________________= __________________
=0Aspring mailing list
=0Aspring@ietf.org
=0Ahttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

= =0A
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=0A
=0A ------=_001_NextPart821168787245_=------ From nobody Wed Feb 26 03:54:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1D4C3A08A5; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 03:54:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DNKzeuIGdDQK; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 03:54:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 52DBD3A089D; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 03:54:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhreml703-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 019D36E0869DD3643C37; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:54:41 +0000 (GMT) Received: from lhreml724-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.75) by lhreml703-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.44) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:54:40 +0000 Received: from lhreml724-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.75) by lhreml724-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.75) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1713.5; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:54:40 +0000 Received: from DGGEMM406-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.214) by lhreml724-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.75) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA) id 15.1.1713.5 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:54:40 +0000 Received: from DGGEMM532-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.192]) by DGGEMM406-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.214]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 19:54:33 +0800 From: Lizhenbin To: "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , 'SPRING WG List' CC: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Topic: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Index: AdXsmBuY1tqntXEdSECRXFRXLBEUfQ== Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:54:33 +0000 Message-ID: <5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D9364A1C2@DGGEMM532-MBX.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.206.84] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D9364A1C2DGGEMM532MBXchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:54:47 -0000 --_000_5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D9364A1C2DGGEMM532MBXchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Bruno and WG, The LC has lasted for almost 3 months which greatly exceeds the expected 2 = week. In the process all the comments have been resolved while some issues = is raised again and again with little value. On the other hand, there have been multiple commercial implementation and i= nter-op test and almost 20 deployments for SRv6 which justify the solution = proposed by the draft in practice. We sincerely request to close the LC of the draft and move forward. Best Regards, Zhenbin (Robin) From: bruno.decraene@orange.com [mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com] Sent: Friday, December 06, 2019 1:15 AM To: 'SPRING WG List' Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Subject: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Hello SPRING, This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-spring-= srv6-network-programming [1]. Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent version, and = send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later than December 20. You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not duplica= ting emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which are only spring= specifics. If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically debated on= the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread for this point. This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this point and th= at other points get forgotten (or that the thread get converted into parall= el independent discussions) Thank you, Bruno [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-= 05 ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D9364A1C2DGGEMM532MBXchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Bruno and WG,

The LC has lasted for almost 3 months = which greatly exceeds the expected 2 week. In the process all the comments = have been resolved while some issues is raised again and again with little value.

On the other hand, there have been mul= tiple commercial implementation and inter-op test and almost 20 deployments= for SRv6 which justify the solution proposed by the draft in practice.

 

We sincerely request to close the LC o= f the draft and move forward.

 

 

 

Best Regards,

Zhenbin (Robin)

 

 

From: bruno.decraene@orange.com [mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com]
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2019 1:15 AM
To: 'SPRING WG List' <spring@ietf.org>
Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <dr= aft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
Subject: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

 

Hello SPRING,
 
This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last =
Call on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming [1].

 


Please read this document if you haven't read the=
 most recent version, and send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no late=
r than December 20.


 


You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment=
, but consider not duplicating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comm=
ents which are only spring specifics.


 


If you are raising a point which you expect will =
be specifically debated on the mailing list, consider using a specific emai=
l/thread for this point.


This may help avoiding that the thread become spe=
cific to this point and that other points get forgotten (or that the thread=
 get converted into parallel independent discussions)

 


Thank you,


Bruno


 


[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-=
ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-05


 


 


____________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________________________<=
/o:p>


 


Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir de=
s informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc


pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisa=
tion. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler


a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces j=
ointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,


Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a =
ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.


 


This message and its attachments may contain confide=
ntial or privileged information that may be protected by law;


they should not be distributed, used or copied witho=
ut authorisation.


If you have received this email in error, please not=
ify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.


As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for m=
essages that have been modified, changed or falsified.

Thank you.
--_000_5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D9364A1C2DGGEMM532MBXchi_-- From nobody Wed Feb 26 03:57:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58DC43A08A9 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 03:57:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.597 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.597 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.999, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u6_LnjUiJ3rO for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 03:57:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x235.google.com (mail-oi1-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A5703A08A8 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 03:57:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x235.google.com with SMTP id p125so2723978oif.10 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 03:57:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=DfC7tBMmzHlPBLCM1dLQ6uzzA8K6xTLifRS1JbAVilY=; b=B1KLSEoRyjIpsmyGlqCE0cbGnuw+a027qS9MjIP2wY7nj/LBY93J4kREJMUtsiB1Im oa6sCBVfp0D2CInaatPO82wlcI5i5WwCnt9ke8rqKbaiKvwO/RbimFqSl3hnVosJJcD+ 2u3odXIBFwWdERd8QJH7IrdpVuNPDEDKwSq4LSNdbgXNprWY8ByPmPjCCOBCGkRqheUI lObDg7QIdv4654u5tHV8uC9it/906u6btou2INbgp5Io49GWevCiwhlIB0PCmArOTjoH 7ozKu1fGGAjznvCasmQFHIz5s4PyJJfj5Fq7IDV9Zvs3Ijw11jHGI8i/WAzRCbgT28Sz t8Kw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=DfC7tBMmzHlPBLCM1dLQ6uzzA8K6xTLifRS1JbAVilY=; b=JbgVyldktaz7EMu3ZuXzxi9ACFOLaQVwW0gVJAtQguQvg+awGeekwBmna3PXNifbeU duH7KP/rP1MHCQ0udkqZBWMATV52qciR9IWABzvmlOwFnd4gcBSuD/iKPFckccoPXgK8 N2nVh976Q1Pg35p82z2WLR7IgV3024l7HtPhpItTQVD4ZDq13ps6CrIEdl4N2AjANgK1 rP07liJ8WoUyF7urQ2LOt0gvShv3FIUCadpFI73R3l2QfoW1NX4FqcA9ohbKXFjWpCPa D9Xg+LD75aj4/NcOkV3ZntVAkU78aVzwSN+wSICBq8o8OdU2OFsu2hv9iO/QZexwgj8x Uijw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUNeHvbgb1KrZjwIk67XMEpcrq83FwWOEOaYXn9rT/gs+3ToZNV nWrDrjtYP2iRvjS3ZyChdcXnTES2zRs0iqcWXfk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwEYBxVW2LP51F8YrM+z+v+eZmfBYuiX1IxHUwr+RPGnjRHz5deBZmtg8Y3pkpQpTTaiVHCqeSrLqOOaYA2aXo= X-Received: by 2002:aca:4306:: with SMTP id q6mr2772093oia.54.1582718249687; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 03:57:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5c2a4b36-0c59-709e-23eb-00f4aa1ce52f@joelhalpern.com> <9B89F4C2-5594-4D31-8893-21F3F4A0DF6C@cisco.com> <58ED78D3-9E0C-4556-8853-8754B361DF6D@cisco.com> <81A30B25-9857-467E-85AE-1FE84B6F3197@cisco.com> <05981e2ea71c4b3083ed6e15c7e20641@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <05981e2ea71c4b3083ed6e15c7e20641@huawei.com> From: Mark Smith Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 22:57:17 +1100 Message-ID: To: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" Cc: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" , Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "Joel M. Halpern" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000d5d97059f794f52" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:57:33 -0000 --0000000000000d5d97059f794f52 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 26 Feb 2020, 20:50 Xiejingrong (Jingrong), wrote: > Hi Mark, > I think both AH and PSP are optional. > If AH is desired to deploy, then the operator can choose not to use PSP. > If AH is not deployed, and the operator has its requirements of > incremental-deployment, then the operator can choose to use PSP. You've missed the point. AH is an assurance mechanism for something that should *already* be happening - processing packets in accordance with RFC 8200. Somebody choosing not to use AH doesn't mean SPRING can ignore the IPv6 specifications. If the already deployed PSP is removed from the draft, then I think it's > backward for interoperation. > > RFC4301: > 3.2. How IPsec Works > > IPsec uses two protocols to provide traffic security services -- > Authentication Header (AH) and Encapsulating Security Payload (ESP). > Both protocols are described in detail in their respective RFCs > [Ken05b, Ken05a]. IPsec implementations MUST support ESP and MAY > support AH. (Support for AH has been downgraded to MAY because > experience has shown that there are very few contexts in which ESP > cannot provide the requisite security services. Note that ESP can be > used to provide only integrity, without confidentiality, making it > comparable to AH in most contexts.) > Thanks, > Jingrong > > -----Original Message----- > From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Smith > Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 8:31 AM > To: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) > Cc: Ron Bonica ; spring@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern < > jmh@joelhalpern.com> > Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea > > Hi Pablo, > > On Sat, 21 Dec 2019 at 04:38, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) < > pcamaril@cisco.com> wrote: > > > > Hi Ron, > > > > I guess we are making some progress here but going in some circles. So > far we have moved from =E2=80=9Cthis violates RFC8200=E2=80=9D to =E2=80= =9Cthere are no use-cases > or benefits=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Cthis is complex for an ASIC=E2=80=9D to = =E2=80=9Cwhat is the benefit > again=E2=80=9D and now back to =E2=80=9Cthis is complex for an ASIC=E2=80= =9D. > > > > As far as I know, the next header field in both the IPv6 fixed header and > in extension headers is immutable while the packet is travelling within t= he > network, as is the payload length field in the IPv6 base fixed header. > > Nothing in RFC 8200 modifies those fields while the packet is in flight > between the packet's original source and final destination, nor is there > anything in RFC 8200 that specifies how to do those modifications and any > other discussion about the consequences and considerations when doing so. > > > The IPsec AH header is providing integrity checking over fields in the > IPv6 packet that shouldn't be being modified while the packet is within > the network. What is and isn't protected by AH can be seen to be a > specification of what processing on a packet can and cannot occur while i= t > is in flight across the network towards its final destination. > > Therefore, AH is really a quality assurance mechanism for the network > packet processing that RFC 8200 specifies. The processing of the packet b= y > the network with or without the use of AH should be the same. AH should > really only be necessary if there is a belief that the network is likely > not to be processing packets in accordance to RFC 8200, either accidental= ly > or intentionally. > > > Per RFC4302 (IPsec AH), the following section explicitly states which > fields in the IPv6 header are immutable and are to be protected by AH: > > > 3.3.3.1.2. ICV Computation for IPv6 > > 3.3.3.1.2.1. Base Header Fields > > The IPv6 base header fields are classified as follows: > > Immutable > Version > Payload Length > Next Header > Source Address > Destination Address (without Routing Extension Header) > > Mutable but predictable > Destination Address (with Routing Extension Header) > > Mutable (zeroed prior to ICV calculation) > DSCP (6 bits, see RFC2474 [NBBB98]) > ECN (2 bits, see RFC3168 [RFB01]) > Flow Label (*) > Hop Limit > > (*) The flow label described in AHv1 was mutable, and in > RFC 2460 [DH98] was potentially mutable. To retain > compatibility with existing AH implementations, the > flow label is not included in the ICV in AHv2. > > > > > > As for how easy or not something is, the PSP behavior has been > implemented and deployed (running code). The use-cases have been describe= d > and positively reinforced by operators. I don't think there is any furthe= r > explanation to provide. > > > > "Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should." > > How much troubleshooting experience have they had with this? > > I think a very important factor is how easy something is to troubleshoot = - > how obvious is the mechanism works; is the mechanism consistent with > existing behaviours i.e. the principle of least surprise (removing EHs at > an intermediary hop certainly isn't in IPv6, even if the intermediary hop > as the packet's current DA); when it inevitably fails, how obvious is it > where the fault is likely to be; and how quickly can a typical fault be > rectified. > > > > Regards, > Mark. > > > > > > Happy Holidays, > > Pablo. > > > > > > =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message----- > > From: Ron Bonica > > Date: Tuesday, 17 December 2019 at 16:06 > > To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" , "Joel M. > > Halpern" , "spring@ietf.org" > > Subject: RE: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea > > > > Pablo, > > > > In your message below, are you arguing that it is easier for the > penultimate node to remove the SRH than it is for the ultimate node to > ignore it? I think that would be a stretch. > > > > > > > Ron > > > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) > > Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2019 4:50 AM > > To: Ron Bonica ; Joel M. Halpern < > jmh@joelhalpern.com>; spring@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea > > > > Ron, > > > > What is the "price paid by the penultimate segment"? All the curren= t > implementations do this at linerate with no performance degradation as I > have explained in my email before. > > > > There is substantial benefit. Four operators have deployed PSP, > which proves the benefit. > > It enables new use-cases that have been provided by other members i= n > the list. [1], [2] and [5]. > > From operational perspective it is not complex as explained in [3]. > > Operators have expressed their value in [4] and [5]. > > > > [1].- > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/= wTLJQkzC6xwSNPbhB84VH0mLXx0__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj= 30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IcdXeBzk_$ > > [2].- > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/= V0ZpjVLSVZxHaBwecXFxqJjlg_c__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj= 30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IcU9bihBc$ > > [3].- > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/= ssobwemrPz0uEZjvRCZP1e4l_l0__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj= 30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4Icc_wo902$ > > [4].- > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/= KXCBHT8Tpy17S5BsJXLBS35yZbk__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj= 30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IcRXo_q-1$ > > [5].- > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spri > > ng/ErcErN39RIlzkL5SKNVAeEWpnAI__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiB > > zoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IceGPpSab$ > > > > Cheers, > > Pablo. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ron Bonica > > Date: Thursday, 12 December 2019 at 21:50 > > To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" , "Joel M. > Halpern" , "spring@ietf.org" > > Subject: RE: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea > > > > Pablo, > > > > I am not convinced the benefit derived by the ultimate segment > > justifies the price paid by the penultimate segment. Specifically, > > > > - the ultimate segment benefits because it doesn't have to skip > over the SRH with SL =3D=3D 0 > > - in order for the ultimate segment to derive this benefit, > > the penultimate segment needs to remove bytes from the middle of the > > packet and update two fields in the IPv6 header > > > > As Joel said, we typically don't add options (i.e., complexity) > to a specification unless there is substantial benefit. > > > > Ron > > > > > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: spring On Behalf Of Pablo > Camarillo (pcamaril) > > Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2019 3:12 PM > > To: Joel M. Halpern ; spring@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea > > > > Joel, > > > > 1.- The use-case for PSP has already been provided at the > mailer. There are scenarios where it provides benefits to operators. > > > > 2.- The PSP behavior is optional. It is up to the operator in > his deployment to decide whether to enable it or not at one particular > router. > > Similarly, a vendor may decide not to implement it. The PSP > behavior has been implemented by several vendors and deployed (see the sr= v6 > deployment draft). > > > > 3.- A network may have PSP enabled at some nodes and not at > others. Everything is still interoperable and works fine. > > > > 4.- PSP is not a complex operation in hardware (doable at > linerate on existing merchant silicon). > > Example: It has been implemented and deployed on Broadcom J/J+. > If I recall correctly Broadcom Jericho+ started shipping in March 2016! P= SP > is supported on this platform at linerate with no performance degradation > (neither PPPS nor BW). > > Given that this is doable in a platform from more than 3 years > ago, I fail to see how you need "very special provision" to do this. > > > > Is it really something that horrible to provide freedom of > choice to the operators deploying? > > > > In summary, it can be implemented without any burden in hardwar= e > and deployment experience prove this is beneficial to operators. > > > > Thanks, > > Pablo. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: spring on behalf of "Joel M. > Halpern" > > Date: Wednesday, 11 December 2019 at 03:55 > > To: "spring@ietf.org" > > Subject: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea > > > > For purposes of this thread, even if you think PSP violates > RFC 8200, > > let us assume that it is legal. > > > > As I understand it, the PSP situation is: > > o the packet arrives at the place (let's not argue about > whether SIDs > > are locators) identified by the SID in the destination > address field > > o that SID is the next to last SID in the SID list > > o that sid is marked as / known to be PSP > > o at the intended place in the processing pseudocode, the > last (first) > > entry in the SRH is copied into the destination IPv6 addres= s > field of > > the packet > > -> The SRH being used is then removed from the packet. > > > > In order to evaluate whether this is a good idea, we have t= o > have some > > idea of the benefit. It may be that I am missing some of > the benefit, > > and I would appreciate clarification. > > As far as I can tell, the benefit of this removal is that i= n > exchange > > for this node doing the work of removing the SRH, the final > node in the > > SRH does not have to process the SRH at all, as it has been > removed. > > > > I have trouble seeing how that work tradeoff can be > beneficial. > > Removing bytes from the middle of a packet is a complex > operation. > > Doing so in Silicon (we expect this to be done in the fast > path of > > significant forwarders as I understand it) requires very > special > > provision. Even in software, removing bytes from the middl= e > of a packet > > requires somewhere between some and a lot of extra work. I= t > is > > distinctly NOT free. > > > > In contrast, we have assumed that the work of processing SR= H > itself is > > tractable, since otherwise all of SRv6 would be > problematic. So why is > > this necessary. > > > > Yours, > > Joel > > > > PS: Note that both the MPLS case and the encapsulation case > are very > > different in that the material being removed is at the fron= t > of the IP > > packet. Pop or prepend are MUCH easier than middle-removal > (or > > middle-insertion). > > > > _______________________________________________ > > spring mailing list > > spring@ietf.org > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spri > > ng__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Uvd5DRUIJlsmob5a7r4JRgMMbZcE60JOPIW3K2MubKpIuKXA1r7 > > 8vsFpWAHa8hW2$ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > spring mailing list > > spring@ietf.org > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spri > > ng__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Uvd5DRUIJlsmob5a7r4JRgMMbZcE60JOPIW3K2MubKpIuKXA1r7 > > 8vsFpWAHa8hW2$ > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > spring mailing list > > spring@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --0000000000000d5d97059f794f52 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, 26 Feb 2020, 20:50 Xiejingrong (Jingrong), <= ;xiejingrong@huawei.com> wrote:
Hi Mark,
I think both AH and PSP are optional.
If AH is desired to deploy, then the operator can choose not to use PSP. If AH is not deployed, and the operator has its requirements of incremental= -deployment, then the operator can choose to use PSP.

You've missed the poin= t. AH is an assurance mechanism for something that should *already* be happ= ening - processing packets in accordance with RFC 8200.

Somebody choosing not to use AH doesn't= mean SPRING can ignore the IPv6 specifications.


If the already deployed PSP is removed from the draft, then I think it'= s backward for interoperation.

RFC4301:
3.2.=C2=A0 How IPsec Works

=C2=A0 =C2=A0IPsec uses two protocols to provide traffic security services = --
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Authentication Header (AH) and Encapsulating Security Payload = (ESP).
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Both protocols are described in detail in their respective RFC= s
=C2=A0 =C2=A0[Ken05b, Ken05a].=C2=A0 IPsec implementations MUST support ESP= and MAY
=C2=A0 =C2=A0support AH. (Support for AH has been downgraded to MAY because=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0experience has shown that there are very few contexts in which= ESP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0cannot provide the requisite security services.=C2=A0 Note tha= t ESP can be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0used to provide only integrity, without confidentiality, makin= g it
=C2=A0 =C2=A0comparable to AH in most contexts.)

Thanks,
Jingrong

-----Original Message-----
From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf= Of Mark Smith
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 8:31 AM
To: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril@cisco.com> Cc: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>; spring@= ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea

Hi Pablo,

On Sat, 21 Dec 2019 at 04:38, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pca= maril@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 Hi Ron,
>
> I guess we are making some progress here but going in some circles. So= far we have moved from =E2=80=9Cthis violates RFC8200=E2=80=9D to =E2=80= =9Cthere are no use-cases or benefits=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Cthis is complex = for an ASIC=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Cwhat is the benefit again=E2=80=9D and now= back to =E2=80=9Cthis is complex for an ASIC=E2=80=9D.
>

As far as I know, the next header field in both the IPv6 fixed header and i= n extension headers is immutable while the packet is travelling within the = network, as is the payload length field in the IPv6 base fixed header.

Nothing in RFC 8200 modifies those fields while the packet is in flight bet= ween the packet's original source and final destination, nor is there a= nything in RFC 8200 that specifies how to do those modifications and any ot= her discussion about the consequences and considerations when doing so.


The IPsec AH header is providing integrity checking over fields in the
IPv6 packet that shouldn't be being modified while the packet is within= the network. What is and isn't protected by AH can be seen to be a spe= cification of what processing on a packet can and cannot occur while it is = in flight across the network towards its final destination.

Therefore, AH is really a quality assurance mechanism for the network packe= t processing that RFC 8200 specifies. The processing of the packet by the n= etwork with or without the use of AH should be the same. AH should really o= nly be necessary if there is a belief that the network is likely not to be = processing packets in accordance to RFC 8200, either accidentally or intent= ionally.


Per RFC4302 (IPsec AH),=C2=A0 the following section explicitly states which= fields in the IPv6 header are immutable and are to be protected by AH:


3.3.3.1.2.=C2=A0 ICV Computation for IPv6

3.3.3.1.2.1.=C2=A0 Base Header Fields

=C2=A0 =C2=A0The IPv6 base header fields are classified as follows:

Immutable
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Version
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Payload Length
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Next Header
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Source Address
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Destination Address (without Routi= ng Extension Header)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Mutable but predictable
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Destination Address (with Routing = Extension Header)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Mutable (zeroed prior to ICV calculation)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0DSCP (6 bits, see RFC2474 [NBBB98]= )
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ECN (2 bits, see RFC3168 [RFB01])<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Flow Label (*)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hop Limit

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (*) The flow label described in AHv1 was mutabl= e, and in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 RFC 2460 [DH98] was potentially m= utable.=C2=A0 To retain
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 compatibility with existing AH im= plementations, the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 flow label is not included in the= ICV in AHv2.




> As for how easy or not something is, the PSP behavior has been impleme= nted and deployed (running code). The use-cases have been described and pos= itively reinforced by operators. I don't think there is any further exp= lanation to provide.
>

"Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should."=

How much troubleshooting experience have they had with this?

I think a very important factor is how easy something is to troubleshoot - = how obvious is the mechanism works; is the mechanism consistent with existi= ng behaviours i.e. the principle of least surprise (removing EHs at an inte= rmediary hop certainly isn't in IPv6, even if the intermediary hop as t= he packet's current DA); when it inevitably fails, how obvious is it wh= ere the fault is likely to be; and how quickly can a typical fault be recti= fied.



Regards,
Mark.




> Happy Holidays,
> Pablo.
>
>
> =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
> From: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
> Date: Tuesday, 17 December 2019 at 16:06
> To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cis= co.com>, "Joel M.
> Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
> Subject: RE: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pablo,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In your message below, are you arguing that it is e= asier for the penultimate node to remove the SRH than it is for the ultimat= e node to ignore it? I think that would be a stretch.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0
> Ron
>
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Juniper Business Use Only
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-----Original Message-----
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0From: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pca= maril@cisco.com>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2019 4:50 AM
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net<= /a>>; Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>; spring@ietf.org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ron,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0What is the "price paid by the penultimate seg= ment"? All the current implementations do this at linerate with no per= formance degradation as I have explained in my email before.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0There is substantial benefit. Four operators have d= eployed PSP, which proves the benefit.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It enables new use-cases that have been provided by= other members in the list. [1], [2] and [5].
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0From operational perspective it is not complex as e= xplained in [3].
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Operators have expressed their value in [4] and [5]= .
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[1].- https://urldefen= se.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/wTLJQkzC6xwSNPbhB8= 4VH0mLXx0__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPk= WwaIL4IcdXeBzk_$
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[2].- https://urldefen= se.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/V0ZpjVLSVZxHaBwecX= FxqJjlg_c__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPk= WwaIL4IcU9bihBc$
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[3].- https://urldefen= se.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ssobwemrPz0uEZjvRC= ZP1e4l_l0__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPk= WwaIL4Icc_wo902$
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[4].- https://urldefen= se.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/KXCBHT8Tpy17S5BsJX= LBS35yZbk__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPk= WwaIL4IcRXo_q-1$
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[5].-
> htt= ps://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spri
> ng/ErcErN39RIlzkL5SKNVAeEWpnAI__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiB=
> zoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IceGPpSab$
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Cheers,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pablo.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-----Original Message-----
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0From: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.ne= t>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Date: Thursday, 12 December 2019 at 21:50
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "spring@ietf.org" &= lt;spring@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Subject: RE: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pablo,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I am not convinced the benefit derive= d by the ultimate segment
> justifies the price paid by the penultimate segment. Specifically,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- the ultimate segment benefits becau= se it doesn't have to skip over the SRH with SL =3D=3D 0
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- in order for the ultimate segment t= o derive this benefit,
> the penultimate segment needs to remove bytes from the middle of the <= br> > packet and update two fields in the IPv6 header
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As Joel said, we typically don't = add options (i.e., complexity) to a specification unless there is substanti= al benefit.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ro= n
>
>
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Juniper Business Use Only
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-----Original Message-----
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0From: spring <spri= ng-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2019 3:= 12 PM
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To: Joel M. Halpern <j= mh@joelhalpern.com>; spring@ietf.org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a g= ood idea
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Joel,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01.- The use-case for PSP has already = been provided at the mailer. There are scenarios where it provides benefits= to operators.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02.- The PSP behavior is optional. It = is up to the operator in his deployment to decide whether to enable it or n= ot at one particular router.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Similarly, a vendor may decide not to= implement it. The PSP behavior has been implemented by several vendors and= deployed (see the srv6 deployment draft).
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A03.- A network may have PSP enabled at= some nodes and not at others.=C2=A0 Everything is still interoperable and = works fine.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04.- PSP is not a complex operation in= hardware (doable at linerate on existing merchant silicon).
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Example: It has been implemented and = deployed on Broadcom J/J+. If I recall correctly Broadcom Jericho+ started = shipping in March 2016! PSP is supported on this platform at linerate with = no performance degradation (neither PPPS nor BW).
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Given that this is doable in a platfo= rm from more than 3 years ago, I fail to see how you need "very specia= l provision" to do this.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Is it really something that horrible = to provide freedom of choice to the operators deploying?
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In summary, it can be implemented wit= hout any burden in hardware and deployment experience prove this is benefic= ial to operators.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pablo.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-----Original Message-----
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0From: spring <spri= ng-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Date: Wednesday, 11 December 2019 at = 03:55
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To: "spring@ietf.org= " <spring@ietf.org>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Subject: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good = idea
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0For purposes of this th= read, even if you think PSP violates RFC 8200,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0let us assume that it i= s legal.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As I understand it, the= PSP situation is:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o the packet arrives at= the place (let's not argue about whether SIDs
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0are locators) identifie= d by the SID in the destination address field
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o that SID is the next = to last SID in the SID list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o that sid is marked as= / known to be PSP
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0o at the intended place= in the processing pseudocode, the last (first)
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0entry in the SRH is cop= ied into the destination IPv6 address field of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the packet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-> The SRH being use= d is then removed from the packet.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In order to evaluate wh= ether this is a good idea, we have to have some
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0idea of the benefit.=C2= =A0 It may be that I am missing some of the benefit,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and I would appreciate = clarification.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As far as I can tell, t= he benefit of this removal is that in exchange
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0for this node doing the= work of removing the SRH, the final node in the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0SRH does not have to pr= ocess the SRH at all, as it has been removed.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I have trouble seeing h= ow that work tradeoff can be beneficial.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Removing bytes from the= middle of a packet is a complex operation.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Doing so in Silicon (we= expect this to be done in the fast path of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0significant forwarders = as I understand it) requires very special
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0provision.=C2=A0 Even i= n software, removing bytes from the middle of a packet
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0requires somewhere betw= een some and a lot of extra work.=C2=A0 It is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0distinctly NOT free. >
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In contrast, we have as= sumed that the work of processing SRH itself is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tractable, since otherw= ise all of SRv6 would be problematic.=C2=A0 So why is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this necessary.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Yours,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Joel
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0PS: Note that both the = MPLS case and the encapsulation case are very
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0different in that the m= aterial being removed is at the front of the IP
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0packet.=C2=A0 Pop or pr= epend are MUCH easier than middle-removal (or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0middle-insertion).
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_______________________= ________________________
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0spring mailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0spring@ietf.org=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
> htt= ps://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spri
> ng__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Uvd5DRUIJlsmob5a7r4JRgMMbZcE60JOPIW3K2MubKpIuKXA1r7=
> 8vsFpWAHa8hW2$
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_____________________________________= __________
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0spring mailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0spring@ietf.org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
> htt= ps://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spri
> ng__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Uvd5DRUIJlsmob5a7r4JRgMMbZcE60JOPIW3K2MubKpIuKXA1r7=
> 8vsFpWAHa8hW2$
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> spring mailing list
> spring@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/= listinfo/spring

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listi= nfo/spring
--0000000000000d5d97059f794f52-- From nobody Wed Feb 26 04:02:09 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 090823A08CC; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 04:02:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jP3zrCgl6Wes; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 04:02:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A9E063A08C0; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 04:02:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from LHREML711-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 5EFACBE74B116EDE6A95; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:02:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml701-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.156) by LHREML711-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.34) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:02:00 +0000 Received: from nkgeml701-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.156) by nkgeml701-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.156) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1713.5; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 20:01:57 +0800 Received: from nkgeml701-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.156]) by nkgeml701-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.156]) with mapi id 15.01.1713.004; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 20:01:57 +0800 From: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" To: Lizhenbin , "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , 'SPRING WG List' CC: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Topic: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Index: AdXsmBuY1tqntXEdSECRXFRXLBEUfQAA/6tw Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:01:57 +0000 Message-ID: References: <5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D9364A1C2@DGGEMM532-MBX.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D9364A1C2@DGGEMM532-MBX.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.203.211] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_d3f1d40f397b4972b0edbb962df675fehuaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:02:04 -0000 --_000_d3f1d40f397b4972b0edbb962df675fehuaweicom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1 Best regards, Jie From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lizhenbin Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 7:55 PM To: bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG List' Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Subject: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draf= t-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Hi Bruno and WG, The LC has lasted for almost 3 months which greatly exceeds the expected 2 = week. In the process all the comments have been resolved while some issues = is raised again and again with little value. On the other hand, there have been multiple commercial implementation and i= nter-op test and almost 20 deployments for SRv6 which justify the solution = proposed by the draft in practice. We sincerely request to close the LC of the draft and move forward. Best Regards, Zhenbin (Robin) From: bruno.decraene@orange.com [mailto:b= runo.decraene@orange.com] Sent: Friday, December 06, 2019 1:15 AM To: 'SPRING WG List' > Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming > Subject: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Hello SPRING, This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-spring-= srv6-network-programming [1]. Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent version, and = send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later than December 20. You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not duplica= ting emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which are only spring= specifics. If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically debated on= the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread for this point. This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this point and th= at other points get forgotten (or that the thread get converted into parall= el independent discussions) Thank you, Bruno [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-= 05 ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_d3f1d40f397b4972b0edbb962df675fehuaweicom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

+1

 

Best regards,

Jie

 

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lizhenbin
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 7:55 PM
To: bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG List' <spring@ietf.org&= gt;
Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <dr= aft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC= - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

 

Hi Bruno and WG,

The LC has lasted for almost 3 months = which greatly exceeds the expected 2 week. In the process all the comments = have been resolved while some issues is raised again and again with little value.

On the other hand, there have been mul= tiple commercial implementation and inter-op test and almost 20 deployments= for SRv6 which justify the solution proposed by the draft in practice.

 

We sincerely request to close the LC o= f the draft and move forward.

 

 

 

Best Regards,

Zhenbin (Robin)

 

 

From: bruno.decraene@orange.com = [mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.= com]
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2019 1:15 AM
To: 'SPRING WG List' <spring@i= etf.org>
Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-s= pring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@i= etf.org>
Subject: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

 

Hello SPRING,
 
This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last =
Call on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming [1].

 


Please read this document if you haven't read the=
 most recent version, and send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no late=
r than December 20.


 


You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment=
, but consider not duplicating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comm=
ents which are only spring specifics.


 


If you are raising a point which you expect will =
be specifically debated on the mailing list, consider using a specific emai=
l/thread for this point.


This may help avoiding that the thread become spe=
cific to this point and that other points get forgotten (or that the thread=
 get converted into parallel independent discussions)

 


Thank you,


Bruno


 


[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-=
ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-05


 


 


____________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________________________<=
/o:p>


 


Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir de=
s informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc


pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisa=
tion. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler


a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces j=
ointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,


Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a =
ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.


 


This message and its attachments may contain confide=
ntial or privileged information that may be protected by law;


they should not be distributed, used or copied witho=
ut authorisation.


If you have received this email in error, please not=
ify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.


As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for m=
essages that have been modified, changed or falsified.

Thank you.
--_000_d3f1d40f397b4972b0edbb962df675fehuaweicom_-- From nobody Wed Feb 26 04:06:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A29F3A08E5; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 04:06:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id auJxY8Bg6nSA; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 04:06:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4D79D3A052C; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 04:06:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 6478C694A8548C2A31C9; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:06:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from lhreml711-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.62) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:06:12 +0000 Received: from lhreml711-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.62) by lhreml711-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.62) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1713.5; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:06:11 +0000 Received: from DGGEMM404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.212) by lhreml711-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.62) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA) id 15.1.1713.5 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:06:11 +0000 Received: from DGGEMM509-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.9.181]) by DGGEMM404-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.212]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 20:06:01 +0800 From: Huzhibo To: Lizhenbin , "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , 'SPRING WG List' CC: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Topic: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Index: AdXsmBuY1tqntXEdSECRXFRXLBEUfQABMIHw Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:06:00 +0000 Message-ID: <06CF729DA0D6854E8C1E5121AC3330DFAF564476@dggemm509-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D9364A1C2@DGGEMM532-MBX.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D9364A1C2@DGGEMM532-MBX.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.111.219.232] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_06CF729DA0D6854E8C1E5121AC3330DFAF564476dggemm509mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:06:19 -0000 --_000_06CF729DA0D6854E8C1E5121AC3330DFAF564476dggemm509mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1 Thanks Zhibo From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lizhenbin Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 7:55 PM To: bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG List' Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Subject: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draf= t-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Hi Bruno and WG, The LC has lasted for almost 3 months which greatly exceeds the expected 2 = week. In the process all the comments have been resolved while some issues = is raised again and again with little value. On the other hand, there have been multiple commercial implementation and i= nter-op test and almost 20 deployments for SRv6 which justify the solution = proposed by the draft in practice. We sincerely request to close the LC of the draft and move forward. Best Regards, Zhenbin (Robin) From: bruno.decraene@orange.com [mailto:b= runo.decraene@orange.com] Sent: Friday, December 06, 2019 1:15 AM To: 'SPRING WG List' > Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming > Subject: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Hello SPRING, This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-spring-= srv6-network-programming [1]. Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent version, and = send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later than December 20. You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not duplica= ting emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which are only spring= specifics. If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically debated on= the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread for this point. This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this point and th= at other points get forgotten (or that the thread get converted into parall= el independent discussions) Thank you, Bruno [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-= 05 ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_06CF729DA0D6854E8C1E5121AC3330DFAF564476dggemm509mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

+1

 

Thanks

Zhibo

 

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lizhenbin
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 7:55 PM
To: bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG List' <spring@ietf.org&= gt;
Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <dr= aft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC= - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

 

Hi Bruno and WG,

The LC has lasted for almost 3 months = which greatly exceeds the expected 2 week. In the process all the comments = have been resolved while some issues is raised again and again with little value.

On the other hand, there have been mul= tiple commercial implementation and inter-op test and almost 20 deployments= for SRv6 which justify the solution proposed by the draft in practice.

 

We sincerely request to close the LC o= f the draft and move forward.

 

 

 

Best Regards,

Zhenbin (Robin)

 

 

From: bruno.decraene@orange.com = [mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.= com]
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2019 1:15 AM
To: 'SPRING WG List' <spring@i= etf.org>
Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-s= pring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@i= etf.org>
Subject: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

 

Hello SPRING,
 
This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last =
Call on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming [1].

 


Please read this document if you haven't read the=
 most recent version, and send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no late=
r than December 20.


 


You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment=
, but consider not duplicating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comm=
ents which are only spring specifics.


 


If you are raising a point which you expect will =
be specifically debated on the mailing list, consider using a specific emai=
l/thread for this point.


This may help avoiding that the thread become spe=
cific to this point and that other points get forgotten (or that the thread=
 get converted into parallel independent discussions)

 


Thank you,


Bruno


 


[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-=
ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-05


 


 


____________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________________________<=
/o:p>


 


Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir de=
s informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc


pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisa=
tion. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler


a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces j=
ointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,


Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a =
ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.


 


This message and its attachments may contain confide=
ntial or privileged information that may be protected by law;


they should not be distributed, used or copied witho=
ut authorisation.


If you have received this email in error, please not=
ify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.


As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for m=
essages that have been modified, changed or falsified.

Thank you.
--_000_06CF729DA0D6854E8C1E5121AC3330DFAF564476dggemm509mbxchi_-- From nobody Wed Feb 26 04:13:26 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA1C03A0914; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 04:13:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.889 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.889 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ysFwQ45fdiw5; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 04:13:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from chinatelecom.cn (prt-mail.chinatelecom.cn [42.123.76.227]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 243EC3A0913; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 04:13:11 -0800 (PST) HMM_SOURCE_IP: 172.18.0.218:6257.887304881 HMM_ATTACHE_NUM: 0000 HMM_SOURCE_TYPE: SMTP Received: from clientip-123.122.154.57?logid-8D3413682ACE4F5CA92974A12F1F3CB6 (unknown [172.18.0.218]) by chinatelecom.cn (HERMES) with SMTP id 593AD28008B; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 20:13:07 +0800 (CST) X-189-SAVE-TO-SEND: 66040161@chinatelecom.cn Received: from ([172.18.0.218]) by App0025 with ESMTP id 8D3413682ACE4F5CA92974A12F1F3CB6 for lizhenbin@huawei.com; Wed Feb 26 20:13:09 2020 X-Transaction-ID: 8D3413682ACE4F5CA92974A12F1F3CB6 X-filter-score: filter<0> X-Real-From: xiechf@chinatelecom.cn X-Receive-IP: 172.18.0.218 X-MEDUSA-Status: 0 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 20:13:06 +0800 From: "xiechf@chinatelecom.cn" To: lizhenbin , "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , List Cc: 6man <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming References: <5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D9364A1C2@DGGEMM532-MBX.china.huawei.com> X-Priority: 3 X-Has-Attach: no X-Mailer: Foxmail 7.2.14.409[cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <2020022620130587107618@chinatelecom.cn> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_001_NextPart226182605640_=----" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:13:20 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_001_NextPart226182605640_=---- Content-Type: text/plain; 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

+1

 

 

Best Regards

Xuesong

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lizhenbin
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 7:55 PM
To: bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG List' <spring@ietf.org&= gt;
Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <dr= aft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC= - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

 

Hi Bruno and WG,

The LC has lasted for almost 3 months = which greatly exceeds the expected 2 week. In the process all the comments = have been resolved while some issues is raised again and again with little value.

On the other hand, there have been mul= tiple commercial implementation and inter-op test and almost 20 deployments= for SRv6 which justify the solution proposed by the draft in practice.

 

We sincerely request to close the LC o= f the draft and move forward.

 

 

 

Best Regards,

Zhenbin (Robin)

 

 

 

Hello SPRING,
 
This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last =
Call on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming [1].

 


Please read this document if you haven't read the=
 most recent version, and send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no late=
r than December 20.


 


You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment=
, but consider not duplicating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comm=
ents which are only spring specifics.


 


If you are raising a point which you expect will =
be specifically debated on the mailing list, consider using a specific emai=
l/thread for this point.


This may help avoiding that the thread become spe=
cific to this point and that other points get forgotten (or that the thread=
 get converted into parallel independent discussions)

 


Thank you,


Bruno


 


[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-=
ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-05


 


 


____________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________________________<=
/o:p>


 


Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir de=
s informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc


pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisa=
tion. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler


a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces j=
ointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,


Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a =
ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.


 


This message and its attachments may contain confide=
ntial or privileged information that may be protected by law;


they should not be distributed, used or copied witho=
ut authorisation.


If you have received this email in error, please not=
ify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.


As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for m=
essages that have been modified, changed or falsified.

Thank you.
--_000_7f4c1d0a6f674e7eb3d51163e7b7954fhuaweicom_-- From nobody Wed Feb 26 04:22:50 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEC1C3A0930; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 04:22:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8ooFF5qG-cPn; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 04:22:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 117B53A092F; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 04:22:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from LHREML712-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 8F667864D8B7A960310D; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:22:42 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEML405-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.49) by LHREML712-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.35) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:22:41 +0000 Received: from DGGEML529-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.6.172]) by dggeml405-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.3.17.49]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 20:22:36 +0800 From: "Chengli (Cheng Li)" To: 'SPRING WG List' CC: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Topic: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Index: AdXsmBuY1tqntXEdSECRXFRXLBEUfQABqBjgAAAoEgA= Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:22:35 +0000 Message-ID: References: <5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D9364A1C2@DGGEMM532-MBX.china.huawei.com> <7f4c1d0a6f674e7eb3d51163e7b7954f@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <7f4c1d0a6f674e7eb3d51163e7b7954f@huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.203.229] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB0292D0E1dggeml529mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:22:46 -0000 --_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB0292D0E1dggeml529mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1 Cheng From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Gengxuesong (Geng Xu= esong) Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 8:19 PM To: Lizhenbin ; bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG= List' Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Subject: RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-iet= f-spring-srv6-network-programming +1 Best Regards Xuesong From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lizhenbin Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 7:55 PM To: bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG= List' > Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming > Subject: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draf= t-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Hi Bruno and WG, The LC has lasted for almost 3 months which greatly exceeds the expected 2 = week. In the process all the comments have been resolved while some issues = is raised again and again with little value. On the other hand, there have been multiple commercial implementation and i= nter-op test and almost 20 deployments for SRv6 which justify the solution = proposed by the draft in practice. We sincerely request to close the LC of the draft and move forward. Best Regards, Zhenbin (Robin) From: bruno.decraene@orange.com [mailto:b= runo.decraene@orange.com] Sent: Friday, December 06, 2019 1:15 AM To: 'SPRING WG List' > Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming > Subject: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Hello SPRING, This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-spring-= srv6-network-programming [1]. Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent version, and = send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later than December 20. You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not duplica= ting emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which are only spring= specifics. If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically debated on= the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread for this point. This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this point and th= at other points get forgotten (or that the thread get converted into parall= el independent discussions) Thank you, Bruno [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-= 05 ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_C7C2E1C43D652C4E9E49FE7517C236CB0292D0E1dggeml529mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

+1

 

Cheng

 

From:<= /span> ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bou= nces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 8:19 PM
To: Lizhenbin <lizhenbin@huawei.com>; bruno.decraene@orange.co= m; 'SPRING WG List' <spring@ietf.org>
Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <dr= aft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - dr= aft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

 

+1

 

 

Best Regards

Xuesong

From:<= /span> spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lizhenbin
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 7:55 PM
To: bruno.decraene@oran= ge.com; 'SPRING WG List' <spring@= ietf.org>
Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-s= pring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@i= etf.org>
Subject: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC= - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

 

Hi Bruno and WG,

The LC has lasted for almost 3 months which greatly e= xceeds the expected 2 week. In the process all the comments have been resol= ved while some issues is raised again and again with little value.

On the other hand, there have been multiple commercia= l implementation and inter-op test and almost 20 deployments for SRv6 which= justify the solution proposed by the draft in practice.

 

We sincerely request to close the LC of the draft and= move forward.

 

 

 

Best Regards,

Zhenbin (Robin)

 

 

From:<= /span> bruno.decraene@orange.com [mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.= com]
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2019 1:15 AM
To: 'SPRING WG List' <<= span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">spring@ietf.org>
Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@= ietf.org>
Subject: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

 

Hello SPRING,
 
This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-sp=
ring-srv6-network-programming [1].
 
Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent version,=
 and send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later than December 20.
 
You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not du=
plicating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which are only s=
pring specifics.
 
If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically debat=
ed on the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread for this poi=
nt.
This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this point a=
nd that other points get forgotten (or that the thread get converted into p=
arallel independent discussions)
 
Thank you,
Bruno
 
[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-netw=
ork-programming-05
 

 

____________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________________________<=
/o:p>
 
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luC4fLVunr8/ogmWbed600wK++uHuc/bUtKozT3FiE9rsNDCdBzvj1Yn+2vl9tCOeD/qkiiXcWlj2hQNOLHHXVZSX81no0LkhQl81Xxuk9idowl7UjI6SDghRhW3RzPyHuBeeyrObl1oQrFOsOuigo4HwUsDwQ2IMQBbOCzuKgysakc5qKZqEr5OmI/IERG7lpqPwNdFS9q1xYHuod8L7S84Pc4Q/CLacUOcbtsuTCs= x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: y7JKZ+c3MNmEBUJFznRvDTdKDpvpuBV6cr+2TOacA5oL/b10EyKqt1vE14xMD04cs54wTrIzPf1g2odVEkPYsR6qsCxcbOyvNj/KF7f47v4aiyivaAgjdqe6lzybIOPgdAe95klogQdXTRd4+LMKzg== x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_PU1PR06MB2215B8CDF60C25E2F834E526DAEA0PU1PR06MB2215apcp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-RMS-PersistedConsumerOrg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: e2e2c48e-cdc9-441c-3875-08d7bab875f0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-rms-persistedconsumerorg: 00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 26 Feb 2020 12:36:11.9935 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SG2APC01HT164 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:36:21 -0000 --_000_PU1PR06MB2215B8CDF60C25E2F834E526DAEA0PU1PR06MB2215apcp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1 Best Regards, Peng (cmcc) ________________________________ liupengyjy@outlook.com From: dzp Date: 2020-02-26 20:31 To: 'SPRING WG List' CC: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - = draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming +1 Best Regards Zongpeng Du (cmcc) ------------------ Original ------------------ From: "Chengli (Cheng Li)"; Date: Wed, Feb 26, 2020 08:22 PM To: "'SPRING WG List'"; Cc: "6man@ietf.org"<6man@ietf.org>;"draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programm= ing"; Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - = draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming +1 Cheng From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Gengxuesong (Geng Xu= esong) Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 8:19 PM To: Lizhenbin ; bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG= List' Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Subject: RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-iet= f-spring-srv6-network-programming +1 Best Regards Xuesong From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lizhenbin Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 7:55 PM To: bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG= List' > Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming > Subject: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draf= t-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Hi Bruno and WG, The LC has lasted for almost 3 months which greatly exceeds the expected 2 = week. In the process all the comments have been resolved while some issues = is raised again and again with little value. On the other hand, there have been multiple commercial implementation and i= nter-op test and almost 20 deployments for SRv6 which justify the solution = proposed by the draft in practice. We sincerely request to close the LC of the draft and move forward. Best Regards, Zhenbin (Robin) From: bruno.decraene@orange.com [mailto:b= runo.decraene@orange.com] Sent: Friday, December 06, 2019 1:15 AM To: 'SPRING WG List' > Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming > Subject: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Hello SPRING, This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-spring-= srv6-network-programming [1]. Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent version, and = send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later than December 20. You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not duplica= ting emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which are only spring= specifics. If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically debated on= the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread for this point. This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this point and th= at other points get forgotten (or that the thread get converted into parall= el independent discussions) Thank you, Bruno [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-= 05 ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_PU1PR06MB2215B8CDF60C25E2F834E526DAEA0PU1PR06MB2215apcp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

+1

 

Xia

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Chengli (Cheng Li) [c= hengli13@huawei.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2020=C4=EA2=D4=C226=C8=D5 20:22
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: 'SPRING WG List'
=B3=AD=CB=CD: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programm= ing
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward/= /RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

+1

 

Cheng

 

From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Gengxuesong (Geng Xuesong)
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 8:19 PM
To: Lizhenbin <lizhenbin@huawei.com>; bruno.decraene@orange.co= m; 'SPRING WG List' <spring@ietf.org>
Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <dr= aft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - dr= aft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

 

+= ;1

&nbs= p;

&nbs= p;

Best= Regards

Xues= ong

From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lizhenbin
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 7:55 PM
To: bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG List' <spring@ietf.org>
Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programmi= ng@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC= - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

 

Hi B= runo and WG,

The = LC has lasted for almost 3 months which greatly exceeds the expected 2 week= . In the process all the comments have been resolved while some issues is r= aised again and again with little value.

On t= he other hand, there have been multiple commercial implementation and inter= -op test and almost 20 deployments for SRv6 which justify the solution prop= osed by the draft in practice.

&nbs= p;

We s= incerely request to close the LC of the draft and move forward.

&nbs= p;

&nbs= p;

&nbs= p;

Best= Regards,

Zhen= bin (Robin)

&nbs= p;

&nbs= p;

From: bruno.decraene@orange.com<= /a> [mailto:bruno.= decraene@orange.com]
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2019 1:15 AM
To: 'SPRING WG List' <spring@ietf.o= rg>
Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-networ= k-programming@ietf.org>
Subject: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

 

Hello SPRING,
 
This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-sp=
ring-srv6-network-programming [1].
 
Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent version,=
 and send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later than December 20.

 


You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not du=
plicating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which are only s=
pring specifics.


 


If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically debat=
ed on the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread for this poi=
nt.


This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this point a=
nd that other points get forgotten (or that the thread get converted into p=
arallel independent discussions)


 


Thank you,


Bruno


 


[1] https://t=
ools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-05


 


 


____________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________________________


 


Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir de=
s informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc

pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisa=
tion. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<=
/pre>

a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces j=
ointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,<=
/pre>

Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a =
ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.


 


This message and its attachments may contain confide=
ntial or privileged information that may be protected by law;


they should not be distributed, used or copied witho=
ut authorisation.


If you have received this email in error, please not=
ify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.


As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for m=
essages that have been modified, changed or falsified.


Thank you.
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I have made several attempts to find a solution and I now have serious hopes for the situation to return back to normal soon. Bruno being involved in the draft currently in WG LC, I will handle closing it. Martin From nobody Wed Feb 26 05:05:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E3D93A09F2 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 05:05:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EINb1-YJEwqk for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 05:05:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x32c.google.com (mail-ot1-x32c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 226453A09EC for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 05:05:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x32c.google.com with SMTP id w6so2895168otk.0 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 05:05:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=VvFb9wp+k51LZpRvtAj0ZrmUZnG3fxYiyJ6vjOVbgzg=; b=Gm02xFD2TUHzw7rJm3kB6q7czgHLYSJ5lhRbaG6NzggNr3Q+HyM8bAtqvhvNFjXwol fLsQMnmBF5ap5u33cVnxZtIMBdukE2we5MwqdIMPHZ6TIW/j/P8zrKVkT6I4PEyGDxMj G9ElneNLpvxgzl9g42xwJsbOqNahYKlLpbhhJxhKCGILp2/qBx+6RuOUW4cgLVHHU7Vu Wd+1H7vwIiG2ZlUKtE24BCs1DjkDVQYrJA9RTRIqhKpou2LOP8r4EZkgPSwkAD2JHoKw fl5zxRIf5Kmk10pM0T99V0PpNG1JmZNB5ViYs7a/8VFZv08mIShzwYSbKzh+wesuJZUD L11A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=VvFb9wp+k51LZpRvtAj0ZrmUZnG3fxYiyJ6vjOVbgzg=; b=FWDZE0G74U20guOsMvDN54mbdcVWubOHfOyiThgY40NoZlE2UOfokisCsp7nb4E5UZ 7jxfh4ceAVixC9ugoMfrDwIfAIvxL59OgkHI9UT02olj97pgdLRCh1EyWgyeavcnGaz4 c1CNWx9UKnYGa9wrbZTwuvF3DwUPdLRhkhfTGUCLfwqkhK3nvrRLLSPvRgvjKu6f+jJ6 HV1A15VO8Vmbufm9YvG/SB3Og1NQYBoFgoYlBVHSQ8NpWKTBkKGx8Bxyl9IlDT0uAQrR aZ85QeoDMFFwxRXglJJ+iFnxcP23gJwNTT77OdS2w4rrM3552GZea0jWJaekByca91M/ 9fGw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVtnkkW7sE6vGn8GAIzN8LTGwvkG4imcGuFmVoHuV/SIdG/tXWl lgsl5Y/b7qHmcTDS90XH8Sk9/IQDr/7lt1LNkRSQQw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw9z52U4prhOZnMkOmALOJwqjWkhQlPJb+Tn8eNOG6Ovt0MRQr8Bkp1cUcOT4uSiulqpQtixDA2dGnxIbwUZ0w= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:7083:: with SMTP id l3mr2774244otj.193.1582722343199; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 05:05:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5c2a4b36-0c59-709e-23eb-00f4aa1ce52f@joelhalpern.com> <9B89F4C2-5594-4D31-8893-21F3F4A0DF6C@cisco.com> <58ED78D3-9E0C-4556-8853-8754B361DF6D@cisco.com> <81A30B25-9857-467E-85AE-1FE84B6F3197@cisco.com> <05981e2ea71c4b3083ed6e15c7e20641@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 14:05:31 +0100 Message-ID: To: Mark Smith Cc: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" , Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "Joel M. Halpern" , "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000b7919059f7a4349" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 13:05:48 -0000 --0000000000000b7919059f7a4349 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > Somebody choosing not to use AH doesn't mean SPRING can ignore the IPv6 specifications. I think it sure can and in fact it should. See there is perhaps key misunderstanding here. Regardless if folks agree or not with that SRv6 is a new data plane. SRv6 != IPv6 that's obvious. It also does not attempt to *extend* IPv6. It reuses some IPv6 elements and makes sure non SRv6 nodes can treat the packets as vanilla IPv6, but that's it. With that in mind all of this going back and forth between SPRING and 6MAN to me is triggered by wrong positioning of SRv6 as a new transport. Sure if SRv6 would be extending IPv6 then updates to RFC8200 would be needed - but here RFC8200 should at best be informative reference. I am not even sure why SRH needs to be 6MAN RFC. IETF is designed to build and improve prior art not be locked by it. Cheers, R. --0000000000000b7919059f7a4349 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

> Somebody = choosing not to use AH doesn't mean SPRING can ignore the IPv6 specific= ations.=C2=A0=C2=A0

I think it sure ca= n and in=C2=A0fact it should.=C2=A0

See there is p= erhaps key misunderstanding=C2=A0here.=C2=A0

Regar= dless if folks agree or not with that SRv6 is a new data plane. SRv6 !=3D I= Pv6 that's obvious.=C2=A0

It also does not att= empt to *extend* IPv6. It reuses some IPv6 elements and makes sure non SRv6= nodes can treat the packets as vanilla IPv6, but that's it. With that = in mind all of this going back and forth between=C2=A0SPRING and 6MAN to me= is triggered by wrong positioning of SRv6 as a new transport.=C2=A0
<= div>
Sure if SRv6 would be extending IPv6 then updates to RFC= 8200 would be needed - but here RFC8200 should at best be informative refer= ence. I am not even sure why SRH needs to be 6MAN RFC. IETF is designed=C2= =A0to build and improve prior art not be locked by it.=C2=A0

=
Cheers,
R.



--0000000000000b7919059f7a4349-- From nobody Wed Feb 26 05:19:51 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EC7F3A0A38 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 05:19:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.087 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.087 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZszqLOtz_b77 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 05:19:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x235.google.com (mail-oi1-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 428503A0A39 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 05:19:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x235.google.com with SMTP id a22so2931527oid.13 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 05:19:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=xkCaSBL61/54TV+8xvowJ1vp1QiVUbqTPu1g4WBJyEY=; b=Jshfxut1DA+AxpFuvoTMMnYFaQavD2sDeKjXgdIqd54OAFivXM54UQwHmwA2n0GUj9 PnoqfxJHjFnYaKBsHvXyFAq6q2Wte9Mw7INuomM7i4ER958cdXv2kpC66ehOUs+VLv01 8KtKzD9qtrwZ4DvzeguNjENd/Z58PocaxjE0sP2E1w3RttibQw5Z8pNC+NxyE29FzAXr C4EsD6U6yacH9ZgMZNcHEreEyweg3Uzt9Tvm4Q4qdZCPR5ENsSRZLRSH6bvFs1C0OAv+ FFF8jLJPPYrI48FoAPVwiPu9OntFPJ1VizJQ5VLrRwsZOAOY4t3pmDXPqOeIUOZtSmwY D3/A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=xkCaSBL61/54TV+8xvowJ1vp1QiVUbqTPu1g4WBJyEY=; b=o/wKp45Es/1AxNgMv5KjrB4TZvGYSTFJGmGHE6HTzDm/QXwRGnxwHPMas8zAn1dZmV mp02Omfiq+FMqoMZTeNRusYfUQyMKCNmHbSl0mvRL1rQKP5dtY2upaS0PEyS/VGEPCCS eAibTelloDRkA3mwoDoPp42nAFhluUZsfAOUYEegEKCizhuX7VWCzOPL1ESExWikuyu2 I5vBbjxw/JnRz+pMAbMud+QUBSZsDUuXPaYhitm82zPA9BCqu8FG9InWXUXQQWEg/r9a uK9PHlQhdV9hqZ3MzxBWKyfEcv00OLl3+7Z09IN1jMQnwctZ5ZSDrJVEXZb9uddS+ZV4 XvNg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXj/+A63MJajchNEM+iAeUJTgeL2vqcxtVs/xlrtEo/JJFHjebR 9CaXxgOcgsZzqaI/aqSVe3KzwzW35dnyLTAmnJN3qg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw95nGt1iOGz7owkvUr6h6I4F3/nu7C46/16BVuhsTL2ktMxXvnh46AUPFYUDs5nUH1jsE+Zpdif431cBOkTSs= X-Received: by 2002:aca:4106:: with SMTP id o6mr3038079oia.173.1582723181259; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 05:19:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 14:19:29 +0100 Message-ID: To: Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de Cc: ippm-chairs@ietf.org, SPRING WG , ippm@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ff4473059f7a7424" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Monitoring metric to detect and locate congestion X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 13:19:49 -0000 --000000000000ff4473059f7a7424 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Two clarifications: [RG1] the measurements pass the routers on forwarding plane. Well if I have 20K CEs and would like to measure this end to end that means it better run on a router ... I can not envision installing 20K new PCs just for this. At min such end point it should run on a well designed CPE as an LXC. [RG1] Up to now, the conditions in Deutsche Telekom=E2=80=99s backbone netw= ork require a careful design of router probing interval and counters to be read. Sure. I actually had in mind telemetry push model where you only get notified to yr monitoring station when applied queue threshold is crossed. Very little mgmt traffic in the network limited to only information which is important. I know some vendors resist to locally (at LC or local RE) apply filtering to telemetry streaming but this is IMHO just sick approach. Thx, R. On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 12:01 PM wrote: > Hi Robert, > > > > Thanks, my replies in line marked [RG1] > > > > I have read your draft and presentation with interest as I am a > big supporter and in some lab trials of end to end network path probing. > > > > Few comments, observations, questions: > > > > You are essentially measuring and comparing delay across N paths > traversing known network topology (I love "network tomography" name !) > > > > [RG1] it=E2=80=99s telemetry with a constrained set up, but the term does= n=E2=80=99t > appear in the draft yet=E2=80=A6that can be changed. > > > > ------ > > * First question - this will likely run on RE/RP and in some platforms > path between LC and RE/RP is completely deterministic and can take 10s or > 100s of ms locally in the router. So right here the proposal to compare > anything may not really work - unless the spec mandates that actually > timestamping is done in hardware on the receiving LC. Then CPU can proces= s > it when it has cycles. > > > > [RG1] the measurements pass the routers on forwarding plane. High-end > routers add variable processing latencies. It=E2=80=99s on a level of dou= ble or > lower triple digit [us] on Deutsche Telekom backbone routers. If a > dedicated sender receiver system is used, timestamping may be optimized f= or > the purpose. > > ------ > > > > * Second question is that congestion usually has a very transient > character ... You would need to be super lucky to find any congestion in > normal network using test probes of any sort. If you have interfaces alwa= ys > congested then just the queue depth time delta may not be visible in end = to > end measurements. > > > > [RG1] The probing frequency depends on the characteristics of congestion > the operator wants to be aware of. Unplanned events may cause changes in > measurement delays lasting for minutes or longer (congestion or hardware > issues). The duration of a reliably detectable =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D co= rrespond to the > measurement packet distance (I don=E2=80=99t intend to replace hello-exch= anges or > BFD by the metric). > > ------ > > > > * Third - why not simply look at the queue counters at each node ? Queue > depth, queue history, min, avg, max on a per interface basis offer tons o= f > information readily available. Why would anyone need to inject loops of > probe packets in known network to detect this ? And in black box unknown > networks this is not going to work as you would not know the network > topology in the first place. Likewise link down/up is already reflected i= n > your syslog via BFD and IGP alarms. I really do not think you need end to > end protocol to tell you that. > > > > [RG1] Up to now, the conditions in Deutsche Telekom=E2=80=99s backbone ne= twork > require a careful design of router probing interval and counters to be > read. The proposed metric allows to capture persistent issues impacting > forwarding. It points out, where these likely occur. An operator may then > have a closer look at an interface/router to analyse what=E2=80=99s going= on, using > the full arsenal of accessible information and tools. As unusual events > happen rarely, it may still be a fair question for which purpose linecard= - > and central processing cycles of routers are consumed. > > ------- > > + Thanks for catching the nit below.. > > > > Regards, Ruediger > > > > s/nodes L100 and L200 one one/nodes L100 and L200 on one/ > > > > :) > > > > Many thx, > > R. > > > > On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 8:55 AM wrote: > > Dear IPPM (and SPRING) participants, > > > > I=E2=80=99m solliciting interest in a new network monitoring metric which= allows > to detect and locate congested interfaces. Important properties are > > - Same scalability as ICMP ping in the sense one measurement relation > required per monitored connection > - Adds detection and location of congested interfaces as compared to > ICMP ping (otherwise measured metrics are compatible with ICMP ping) > - Requires Segment Routing (which means, measurement on forwarding > layer, no other interaction with passed routers =E2=80=93 in opposite = to ICMP ping) > - Active measurement (may be deployed using a single sender&receiver > or separate sender and receiver, Segment Routing allows for both optio= ns) > > > > I=E2=80=99d be happy to present the draft in Vancouver.. If there=E2=80= =99s community > interest. Please read and comment. > > > > You=E2=80=99ll find slides at > > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/slides-105-ippm-14-dra= ft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-00 > > > > Draft url: > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring/ > > > > Regards, > > > > Ruediger > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > --000000000000ff4473059f7a7424 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

Two clarifications:=C2=A0

[RG1] the measurements pass the routers on forwarding plane= .=C2=A0

Well if I have 20K CEs and would like to m= easure this end to end that means it better run on a router ... I can not e= nvision installing 20K new PCs just for this. At min such end point it shou= ld run on a well designed CPE as an LXC.=C2=A0=C2=A0

[RG1] Up to now, the conditions in Deutsche Telekom=E2=80=99s backbo= ne network require a careful design of router probing interval and counters= to be read.=C2=A0

Sure. I actually had in mind te= lemetry push model where you only get notified to yr monitoring station whe= n applied queue threshold=C2=A0is crossed. Very little mgmt traffic in the = network limited to only information which is important.=C2=A0
I know some vendors resist to locally (at LC or local RE) apply= filtering to telemetry streaming but this is IMHO just sick approach.=C2= =A0

Thx,
R.

=C2=A0


On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 12:01 PM= <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de> wrote:

Hi Robert,

=C2=A0=

Thanks, my replies in line marked [RG1]

=C2=A0

I have read your draft=C2=A0and presentation with in= terest as I am a big=C2=A0supporter and in some lab trials=C2=A0 of end to = end network path probing.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Few comments, observations, questions:=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0

You are essentially measuring and comparing delay ac= ross N paths traversing known=C2=A0network topology (I love "network t= omography" name !)

=C2=A0

[RG1] it=E2=80=99s telemetry with a constrained set = up, but the term doesn=E2=80=99t appear in the draft yet=E2=80=A6that can b= e changed.

=C2=A0

------

* First question - this will likely run on RE/RP and= in some platforms path between LC and RE/RP is completely deterministic=C2= =A0and can take 10s or 100s of ms locally in the router. So right here the = proposal to compare anything may not really work=C2=A0- unless the spec mandates that actually timestamping is done in= hardware on the receiving LC. Then CPU can process it when it has cycles.= =C2=A0

=C2=A0

[RG1] the measurements pass the routers on forwardin= g plane. High-end routers add variable processing latencies. It=E2=80=99s o= n a level of double or lower triple digit [us] on Deutsche Telekom backbone= routers. If a dedicated sender receiver system is used, timestamping may be optimized for the purpose.

------

=C2=A0

* Second question is that congestion usually has a v= ery transient character ... You would need to be super lucky to find any co= ngestion=C2=A0in normal network using test probes of any sort. If you have = interfaces always congested then just the queue depth time delta may not be visible in end to end measurements.

=C2=A0

[RG1] The probing frequency depends on the character= istics of congestion the operator wants to be aware of. Unplanned events ma= y cause changes in measurement delays lasting for minutes or longer (conges= tion or hardware issues). The duration of a reliably detectable =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D correspond to the measure= ment packet distance (I don=E2=80=99t intend to replace hello-exchanges or = BFD by the metric).

------=C2=A0

=C2=A0

* Third - why not simply look at the queue counters = at each node ? Queue depth, queue history, min, avg, max on a per interface= basis offer tons of information readily available. Why would anyone need t= o inject loops of probe packets in known network to detect this ? And in black box unknown networks this is n= ot going to work as you would not know the network topology in the first pl= ace. Likewise link down/up is already reflected in your syslog via BFD and = IGP alarms. I really do not think you need end to end protocol to tell you that.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

[RG1] Up to now, the conditions in Deutsche Telekom= =E2=80=99s backbone network require a careful design of router probing inte= rval and counters to be read. The proposed metric allows to capture persist= ent issues impacting forwarding. It points out, where these likely occur. An operator may then have a closer look at = an interface/router to analyse what=E2=80=99s going on, using the full arse= nal of accessible information and tools. As unusual events happen rarely, i= t may still be a fair question for which purpose linecard- and central processing cycles of routers are consumed. <= u>

-------

+=C2=A0Thanks for catching the nit below..=

=C2=A0

Regards, Ruediger

=C2=A0

s/nodes L100 and L= 200 one one/nodes L100 and L200 on one/=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

:)=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

Many thx,

R.

=C2=A0

Dear IPPM (and SPRING) participant= s,

=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99m solliciting interest in a new network mo= nitoring metric which allows to detect and locate congested interfaces. Imp= ortant properties are

  • Same scalability as ICMP ping in the sense one measurement relation require= d per monitored connection
  • Adds detection and location of congested interfaces as compared to ICMP pin= g (otherwise measured metrics are compatible with ICMP ping)<= /li>
  • Requires Segment Routing (which means, measurement on forwarding layer, no = other interaction with passed routers =E2=80=93 in opposite to ICMP ping)
  • Active measurement (may be deployed using a single sender&receiver or s= eparate sender and receiver, Segment Routing allows for both options)

=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99d be happy to present the draft in Vancouv= er.. If there=E2=80=99s community interest. Please read and comment.=

=C2=A0

You=E2=80=99ll find slides at =C2=A0

=C2=A0

https://datatracker.= ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/slides-105-ippm-14-draft-geib-ippm-connectiv= ity-monitoring-00

=C2=A0

Draft url:

=C2=A0

https://datatracker.iet= f.org/doc/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring/

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Ruediger

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

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(amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u5Ntnr2D4Fhe for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 05:48:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x332.google.com (mail-ot1-x332.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::332]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 308093A03EB for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 05:48:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x332.google.com with SMTP id w6so3011091otk.0 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 05:48:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6jif/eKEowv4+KfOYF9KE2SVm8dgZVPc+d5kJVgkGvA=; b=NsjN8tZl/D4ptplrduyEadkGQhV/7Vsm7ppyC8Z2ktKi9STviGiiHXF9+Q5FwibBmA ddxQRjWEgLpmiMQIV+4rM3ME+aa7k5p9m+oYPBfHDcBiRfnLw472NfWEEcXDjDXvwcMX 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APXvYqxBToMxl913eLw38NHPgzwaHWItrPAt0FsWCoB7EL0wkrKV430xsHCYpJ51yEJs1W1FZe2AtnzRZwpmU41YG7M= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:6a4f:: with SMTP id h15mr3098312otn.86.1582724877563; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 05:47:57 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5c2a4b36-0c59-709e-23eb-00f4aa1ce52f@joelhalpern.com> <9B89F4C2-5594-4D31-8893-21F3F4A0DF6C@cisco.com> <58ED78D3-9E0C-4556-8853-8754B361DF6D@cisco.com> <81A30B25-9857-467E-85AE-1FE84B6F3197@cisco.com> <05981e2ea71c4b3083ed6e15c7e20641@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 14:47:45 +0100 Message-ID: To: James Guichard Cc: Mark Smith , "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" , Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "Joel M. Halpern" , "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001acc8a059f7adaa1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 13:48:27 -0000 --0000000000001acc8a059f7adaa1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Thx Jim ! Apologies - I spotted one typo in my mail: s/ as a new transport./ It is a new transport./ On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 2:44 PM James Guichard < james.n.guichard@futurewei.com> wrote: > +1 and well said! > > > > *From:* spring *On Behalf Of *Robert Raszuk > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 26, 2020 8:06 AM > *To:* Mark Smith > *Cc:* Xiejingrong (Jingrong) ; Ron Bonica < > rbonica@juniper.net>; spring@ietf.org; Joel M. Halpern < > jmh@joelhalpern.com>; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) > *Subject:* Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea > > > > > > > Somebody choosing not to use AH doesn't mean SPRING can ignore the IPv6 > specifications. > > > > I think it sure can and in fact it should. > > > > See there is perhaps key misunderstanding here. > > > > Regardless if folks agree or not with that SRv6 is a new data plane. SRv6 > != IPv6 that's obvious. > > > > It also does not attempt to *extend* IPv6. It reuses some IPv6 elements > and makes sure non SRv6 nodes can treat the packets as vanilla IPv6, but > that's it. With that in mind all of this going back and forth > between SPRING and 6MAN to me is triggered by wrong positioning of SRv6 as > a new transport. > > > > Sure if SRv6 would be extending IPv6 then updates to RFC8200 would be > needed - but here RFC8200 should at best be informative reference. I am not > even sure why SRH needs to be 6MAN RFC. IETF is designed to build and > improve prior art not be locked by it. > > > > Cheers, > > R. > > > > > > > > > --0000000000001acc8a059f7adaa1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thx Jim !=C2=A0

Apologies - I spotted o= ne typo in my mail:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 s/=C2=A0as a new transport./ It is a new transport./

On Wed, Feb 26, 2= 020 at 2:44 PM James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futurewei.com> wrote:

+1 and well said!

=C2=A0

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Beha= lf Of Robert Raszuk
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 8:06 AM
To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>
Cc: Xiejingrong (Jingrong) <xiejingrong@huawei.com>; Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net= >; spring@ietf.org<= /a>; Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril@cisco.com>=
Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

> Somebody choosing not to use AH doesn't mea= n SPRING can ignore the IPv6 specifications.=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I think it sure can and in=C2=A0fact it should.=C2= =A0

=C2=A0

See there is perhaps key misunderstanding=C2=A0here.= =C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regardless if folks agree or not with that SRv6 is a= new data plane. SRv6 !=3D IPv6 that's obvious.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

It also does not attempt to *extend* IPv6. It reuses= some IPv6 elements and makes sure non SRv6 nodes can treat the packets as = vanilla IPv6, but that's it. With that in mind all of this going back a= nd forth between=C2=A0SPRING and 6MAN to me is triggered by wrong positioning of SRv6 as a new transport.=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

Sure if SRv6 would be extending IPv6 then updates to= RFC8200 would be needed - but here RFC8200 should at best be informative r= eference. I am not even sure why SRH needs to be 6MAN RFC. IETF is designed= =C2=A0to build and improve prior art not be locked by it.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Cheers,

R.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

--0000000000001acc8a059f7adaa1-- From nobody Wed Feb 26 05:49:19 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F0A13A02BE; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 05:49:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=steffann.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YPYM3BV8vSlc; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 05:49:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sintact.nl (mail.sintact.nl [83.247.10.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D57D3A00D9; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 05:49:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 360384D; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 14:48:53 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=steffann.nl; h= x-mailer:references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:date :date:in-reply-to:from:from:subject:subject:mime-version :content-type:content-type:received:received; s=mail; t= 1582724931; bh=LBK0FY5uAn0fLR7dZ5QNaCfF85kEBpIKLcl/3+GLMC0=; b=R qK1dE150YohI0RJdQp+JMMHol0VfWugeHwGSTrM9P0xHasIpwfAW7hKMDoa9QDod 7K8yQqH+tunUHPcXK9YrBTTfdCEcPvXBAuZfGAeAex/UW7qQEsR+j0WM3d3F/qnO YqpjKLsm3rWrbF9VBPBA2uEhLJm1VOJ8Cy2T/jED+I= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.sintact.nl Received: from mail.sintact.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.sintact.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id Rd-5Gt-YGOc7; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 14:48:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2001:9e0:4:12:a9e3:64e4:1d33:28d8] (unknown [IPv6:2001:9e0:4:12:a9e3:64e4:1d33:28d8]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2DE014B; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 14:48:51 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 14:48:50 +0100 Cc: "spring@ietf.org" , 6man WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7B51F0BE-CE40-42B8-9D87-0B764B6E00C5@steffann.nl> References: <5c2a4b36-0c59-709e-23eb-00f4aa1ce52f@joelhalpern.com> <9B89F4C2-5594-4D31-8893-21F3F4A0DF6C@cisco.com> <58ED78D3-9E0C-4556-8853-8754B361DF6D@cisco.com> <81A30B25-9857-467E-85AE-1FE84B6F3197@cisco.com> <05981e2ea71c4b3083ed6e15c7e20641@huawei.com> To: Robert Raszuk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 13:49:17 -0000 Hi Robert, > Regardless if folks agree or not with that SRv6 is a new data plane. = SRv6 !=3D IPv6 that's obvious.=20 >=20 > It also does not attempt to *extend* IPv6. It reuses some IPv6 = elements and makes sure non SRv6 nodes can treat the packets as vanilla = IPv6, but that's it. With that in mind all of this going back and forth = between SPRING and 6MAN to me is triggered by wrong positioning of SRv6 = as a new transport.=20 This is completely bogus. SRv6 is not a new L3 protocol that just = happens to be compatible with IPv6. That is insane BS. > Sure if SRv6 would be extending IPv6 then updates to RFC8200 would be = needed - but here RFC8200 should at best be informative reference. I am = not even sure why SRH needs to be 6MAN RFC. IETF is designed to build = and improve prior art not be locked by it.=20 Because you are building SRv6 on IPv6, plain and simple. 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 26 Feb 2020 14:15:22.2831 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 68792612-0f0e-46cb-b16a-fcb82fd80cb1 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: xvwuqe4/iJjZILct/sVowNDArireaRex2hvLDw7NsFEZQwvYM95fBGYH1gdwKHokoCYfWF4Wl/6bBuarfJJ2GpDfpKyJ/KzU+j6V95vaRWE= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DBBPR03MB5383 X-Mimecast-Spam-Score: 0 X-Mimecast-Originator: liquidtelecom.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DBBPR03MB541529B1A1859DC25E324E13EEEA0DBBPR03MB5415eurp_" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 14:15:36 -0000 --_000_DBBPR03MB541529B1A1859DC25E324E13EEEA0DBBPR03MB5415eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1 Sander. Furthermore - if indeed that is the contention - then - I suggest you move = the whole thing out of SPRING - I quote from the SPRING charter: The Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG (SPRING) Working Group is the home = of Segment Routing (SR) using MPLS (SR-MPLS) and IPv6 (SRv6). Relevant portion in bold. You can claim that SRv6 is a new routing header - you cannot claim that it = is not part of IPv6 - the IPv6 base header is maintained - you are adding a= routing header - done/done - no point even entertaining this line of thoug= ht any further Andrew From: spring On Behalf Of Sander Steffann Sent: Wednesday, 26 February 2020 16:49 To: Robert Raszuk Cc: spring@ietf.org; 6man WG Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea Hi Robert, > Regardless if folks agree or not with that SRv6 is a new data plane. SRv6= !=3D IPv6 that's obvious. > > It also does not attempt to *extend* IPv6. It reuses some IPv6 elements a= nd makes sure non SRv6 nodes can treat the packets as vanilla IPv6, but tha= t's it. With that in mind all of this going back and forth between SPRING a= nd 6MAN to me is triggered by wrong positioning of SRv6 as a new transport. This is completely bogus. SRv6 is not a new L3 protocol that just happens t= o be compatible with IPv6. That is insane BS. > Sure if SRv6 would be extending IPv6 then updates to RFC8200 would be nee= ded - but here RFC8200 should at best be informative reference. I am not ev= en sure why SRH needs to be 6MAN RFC. IETF is designed to build and improve= prior art not be locked by it. Because you are building SRv6 on IPv6, plain and simple. Cheers, Sander _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring --_000_DBBPR03MB541529B1A1859DC25E324E13EEEA0DBBPR03MB5415eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

+1 Sander.

 

Furthermore – if indeed that is the contention – then = 211; I suggest you move the whole thing out of SPRING – I quote from = the SPRING charter:

 

The Source Pac= ket Routing in NetworkinG (SPRING) Working Group is the home of Segment Routing (S= R) using MPLS (SR-MPLS) and IPv6 (SRv6).

 

Relevant portion in bold.

 

You can claim that SRv6 is a new routing header – you cannot cl= aim that it is not part of IPv6 – the IPv6 base header is maintained = – you are adding a routing header – done/done – no point even entertaining this line of thought any further=

 

Andrew

 

 

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Sander Steffann
Sent: Wednesday, 26 February 2020 16:49
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Cc: spring@ietf.org; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea

 

Hi Robert,

> Regardless if folks agree or not with that SRv6 is a new data plane. S= Rv6 !=3D IPv6 that's obvious.
>
> It also does not attempt to *extend* IPv6. It reuses some IPv6 element= s and makes sure non SRv6 nodes can treat the packets as vanilla IPv6, but = that's it. With that in mind all of this going back and forth between SPRIN= G and 6MAN to me is triggered by wrong positioning of SRv6 as a new transport.

This is completely bogus. SRv6 is not a new L3 protocol that just happens t= o be compatible with IPv6. That is insane BS.

> Sure if SRv6 would be extending IPv6 then updates to RFC8200 would be = needed - but here RFC8200 should at best be informative reference. I am not= even sure why SRH needs to be 6MAN RFC. IETF is designed to build and impr= ove prior art not be locked by it.

Because you are building SRv6 on IPv6, plain and simple.

Cheers,
Sander

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.o= rg/mailman/listinfo/spring

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boundary="_000_DBBPR03MB5415C910A5FE36C9769BB8B4EEEA0DBBPR03MB5415eurp_" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 14:25:09 -0000 --_000_DBBPR03MB5415C910A5FE36C9769BB8B4EEEA0DBBPR03MB5415eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Figured I'd add to this - as I continued to read the charter SPRING WG should avoid modification to existing data planes that would make them incompatible with existing deployments. Where possible, existing control and management plane protocols must be used within existing architectures to implement the SPRING function. Any modification of -or extension to- existing architectures, data planes, or control or management plane protocols should be carried out in the WGs responsible for the architecture, data plane, or control or management plane protocol being modified and in coordination with the SPRING WG, but may be done in SPRING WG after agreement with all the relevant WG chairs and responsible Area Directors. If SRv6 is not IPv6 - as is the contention - (which in my view is an absolu= tely false contention designed to step around a specification because it si= mply doesn't suite what you want) - well - then what exactly are we doing h= ere - because by that claim - we are inventing a new control plane, a new d= ata plane, and well, it's a new protocol - so - do we have the agreement of= the relevant WG chairs, Area Directors etc - to invent an entirely new eve= rything. Didn't think so.... Andrew --_000_DBBPR03MB5415C910A5FE36C9769BB8B4EEEA0DBBPR03MB5415eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Figured I’d add to this – as I continued to read the char= ter

 

SPRING WG shou= ld avoid modification to existing data planes that would
make them incompatible with existing deplo= yments. Where possible,
existing control and management plane prot= ocols must be used within
existing architectures to implement the SP= RING function. Any
modification of -or extension to- existing= architectures, data planes,
or control or management plane protocols s= hould be carried out in the
WGs responsible for the architecture, data= plane, or control or
management plane protocol being modified a= nd in coordination with the
SPRING WG, but may be done in SPRING WG af= ter agreement with all the
relevant WG chairs and responsible Area Di= rectors.

 =

If= SRv6 is not IPv6 – as is the contention – (which in my view is= an absolutely false contention designed to step around a specification because it simply doesn’t suite what you want) - well – then w= hat exactly are we doing here – because by that claim – we are = inventing a new control plane, a new data plane, and well, it’s a new= protocol – so – do we have the agreement of the relevant WG ch= airs, Area Directors etc – to invent an entirely new everything.

 

Di= dn’t think so….

 

An= drew

 

--_000_DBBPR03MB5415C910A5FE36C9769BB8B4EEEA0DBBPR03MB5415eurp_-- From nobody Wed Feb 26 06:31:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7D7E3A07DE; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 06:31:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bJD9qVmsK3Hs; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 06:31:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E42633A07E2; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 06:31:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (unknown [181.45.84.85]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 43AFC86C11; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 15:24:56 +0100 (CET) To: Andrew Alston , Sander Steffann , Robert Raszuk Cc: "spring@ietf.org" , 6man WG References: <5c2a4b36-0c59-709e-23eb-00f4aa1ce52f@joelhalpern.com> <9B89F4C2-5594-4D31-8893-21F3F4A0DF6C@cisco.com> <58ED78D3-9E0C-4556-8853-8754B361DF6D@cisco.com> <81A30B25-9857-467E-85AE-1FE84B6F3197@cisco.com> <05981e2ea71c4b3083ed6e15c7e20641@huawei.com> <7B51F0BE-CE40-42B8-9D87-0B764B6E00C5@steffann.nl> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <74aa12a7-2f20-2aa4-77c7-69f5937db178@si6networks.com> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:24:25 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 14:31:46 -0000 On 26/2/20 11:15, Andrew Alston wrote: > +1 Sander. > > Furthermore – if indeed that is the contention – then – I suggest you > move the whole thing out of SPRING – I quote from the SPRING charter: > > /The Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG (SPRING) Working Group is > the////home of Segment Routing (SR) using MPLS (SR-MPLS) *_and IPv6 > (SRv6)._*/*/__/* > > Relevant portion in bold. > > You can claim that SRv6 is a new routing header – you cannot claim that > it is not part of IPv6 – the IPv6 base header is maintained – you are > adding a routing header – done/done – no point even entertaining this > line of thought any further The fact that this is still going on is at least alarming. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Wed Feb 26 06:36:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A32073A07FB for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 06:36:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2Yss0v5a5Jid for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 06:36:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 03FFB3A07FA for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 06:36:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (unknown [181.45.84.85]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1E24B83B46; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 15:35:56 +0100 (CET) To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" , Mark Smith Cc: SPRING WG References: <75EF2179-679B-43B1-9E8C-C85086E70021@cisco.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:35:51 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <75EF2179-679B-43B1-9E8C-C85086E70021@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 14:36:11 -0000 On 26/2/20 11:01, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote: > Hi Mark, > > Thank you for your feedback. Please see inline [PC1]. > > Cheers, Pablo. > > -----Original Message----- From: Mark Smith > Date: Wednesday, 26 February 2020 at 01:31 > To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" Cc: Ron Bonica > , "Joel M. Halpern" , > "spring@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP > a good idea > > Hi Pablo, > > On Sat, 21 Dec 2019 at 04:38, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) > wrote: >> >> Hi Ron, >> >> I guess we are making some progress here but going in some circles. >> So far we have moved from “this violates RFC8200†to “there are no >> use-cases or benefits†to “this is complex for an ASIC†to “what is >> the benefit again†and now back to “this is complex for an ASICâ€. >> > > As far as I know, the next header field in both the IPv6 fixed > header and in extension headers is immutable while the packet is > travelling within the network, as is the payload length field in the > IPv6 base fixed header. > > [PC1]: Did you just make this up? ;-) RFC8200 does not talk about > mutability. > > Nothing in RFC 8200 modifies those fields while the packet is in > flight between the packet's original source and final destination, > nor is there anything in RFC 8200 that specifies how to do those > modifications and any other discussion about the consequences and > considerations when doing so. > > [PC1]: I disagree with you. As a matter of fact RFC8200 allows the > deletion of an extension header at a node identified in the > destination address of the packet (page 8 paragraph 2). Unfortunately, the amount of creativity that has been applied during the last few years when it comes how to read RFC2460 and RFC8200 has meant that we have had to work harder and harder to clarify the wording in RFC2406 and RFC8200 for folks to understand and recognize what has always been the specification and intent of IPv6. I have made yet another attempt to clarify the text here: https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5933 I'd hope that the submitted errata is processed, the existing spec is honored and respected, and folks submit a formal specification update if they mean to change IPv6 -- as opposed to try to circumvent the spec for the n-th try. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From nobody Wed Feb 26 06:37:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 474293A0806; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 06:37:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=orange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id efPC4fyIhdRT; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 06:37:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.66.39]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4D1D03A07F8; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 06:37:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from opfedar02.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.4]) by opfedar22.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 48SJKf07Q4z2y3r; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 15:37:10 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=orange.com; s=ORANGE001; t=1582727830; bh=y3cVo+GvW0kqZeGOUMWqARk/ILnykMJR2alnMXZJkYs=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; b=YR+drepwFPQCr0++YJ2Y2Xj+R1RijCFec+4ZackGrjriOdmPkosvyC4woJSqv94qq pKqdI/YDkxIpy4dINjtkfJaDcBQBA9htTciUfoHPbvDMBXrO1eWssaG1B2qDNe8s9B oX7mfZV/f52hAOpIohYMxDRbM88hitmw56iC9ARp9pdgENOKOfuT3VCNwI6rxeQCBW 58fwJ3/OLQneFxmUmdwOo4CSwd59wuPFXc3MaXYW45Lu+tkkyN6uBkCyrMvKxIeSAz zjKv4Ja+ne3PH8iNO3e7upuaaJ3/bSZgoo56xbZb+F+7DlBKTazHd2GG0wQm6X1nI7 C0uxWDHyLQZow== Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.48]) by opfedar02.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 48SJKd60TdzCqkg; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 15:37:09 +0100 (CET) Received: from OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::b846:2467:1591:5d9d]) by OPEXCAUBM32.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::81c9:5f:b9c5:1241%21]) with mapi id 14.03.0468.000; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 15:37:09 +0100 From: To: Lizhenbin CC: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming , 'SPRING WG List' Thread-Topic: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Index: AdXsmBuY1tqntXEdSECRXFRXLBEUfQAGBU6g Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 14:37:09 +0000 Message-ID: <4038_1582727829_5E568295_4038_168_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DB381A@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D9364A1C2@DGGEMM532-MBX.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D9364A1C2@DGGEMM532-MBX.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.245] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DB381AOPEXCAUBM43corp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 14:37:17 -0000 --_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DB381AOPEXCAUBM43corp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Robin, I think that this was expected that this specific LC would last for more th= an 2 weeks. Summarizing and closing it is on my to do list. (I wish my to do list were = smaller, or that I throw more $$ or contributors on action items. But wishi= ng does not help much in my world.) That been said, this does not change much with regards to technical comment= s been raised: - They are either addressed, non-addressed or pending - they can be raised after the WG LC (e.g. during IETF LC or IESG = review) - they can even be raised after RFC publication. And eventually ca= n led to errata, bis document, deprecation... So technical review and comments are good, at all time. (although sooner is= better) Best regards, --Bruno From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lizhenbin Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 12:55 PM To: DECRAENE Bruno TGI/OLN; 'SPRING WG List' Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Subject: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draf= t-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Hi Bruno and WG, The LC has lasted for almost 3 months which greatly exceeds the expected 2 = week. In the process all the comments have been resolved while some issues = is raised again and again with little value. On the other hand, there have been multiple commercial implementation and i= nter-op test and almost 20 deployments for SRv6 which justify the solution = proposed by the draft in practice. We sincerely request to close the LC of the draft and move forward. Best Regards, Zhenbin (Robin) From: bruno.decraene@orange.com [mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com] Sent: Friday, December 06, 2019 1:15 AM To: 'SPRING WG List' Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Subject: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Hello SPRING, This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-spring-= srv6-network-programming [1]. Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent version, and = send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later than December 20. You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not duplica= ting emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which are only spring= specifics. If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically debated on= the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread for this point. This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this point and th= at other points get forgotten (or that the thread get converted into parall= el independent discussions) Thank you, Bruno [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-= 05 ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DB381AOPEXCAUBM43corp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Robin,

 

I think that this was ex= pected that this specific LC would last for more than 2 weeks.

Summarizing and closing = it is on my to do list. (I wish my to do list were smaller, or that I throw more $$ or contributors on action items. But wish= ing does not help much in my world.)

 =

That been said, this doe= s not change much with regards to technical comments been raised:

- =          They are either = addressed, non-addressed or pending

- =          they can be rais= ed after the WG LC (e.g. during IETF LC or IESG review)

- =          they can even be= raised after RFC publication. And eventually can led to errata, bis document, deprecation= …

 =

So technical review and = comments are good, at all time. (although sooner is better)

 =

Best regards,=

--Bruno

 =

= From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On= Behalf Of Lizhenbin
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 12:55 PM
To: DECRAENE Bruno TGI/OLN; 'SPRING WG List'
Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
Subject: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC= - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

 

Hi Bruno and WG,

The LC has lasted for almost 3 months which greatly exceeds = the expected 2 week. In the process all the comments have been resolved while some issues is raised again and agai= n with little value.

On the other hand, there have been multiple commercial imple= mentation and inter-op test and almost 20 deployments for SRv6 which justify the solution proposed by the draft in p= ractice.

 

We sincerely request to close the LC of the draft and move f= orward.

 

 

 

Best Regards,

Zhenbin (Robin)

 

 

From:<= /b> bruno.decraene@orange.com [mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com]
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2019 1:15 AM
To: 'SPRING WG List' <spring@ietf.org>
Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <dr= aft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
Subject: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

 

Hello SPRING,
 
This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-sp=
ring-srv6-network-programming [1].
 
Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent version,=
 and send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later than December 20.
 
You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not du=
plicating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which are only s=
pring specifics.
 
If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically debat=
ed on the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread for this poi=
nt.
This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this point a=
nd that other points get forgotten (or that the thread get converted into p=
arallel independent discussions)
 
Thank you,
Bruno
 
[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-netw=
ork-programming-05
 

 

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Orange decline toute responsabilit=
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--_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DB381AOPEXCAUBM43corp_-- From nobody Wed Feb 26 06:45:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B1A03A0863; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 06:45:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9nZPfx5B-7tL; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 06:45:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E7203A087C; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 06:45:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (unknown [181.45.84.85]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7828286B7F; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 15:45:21 +0100 (CET) To: bruno.decraene@orange.com, Lizhenbin Cc: 'SPRING WG List' , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming References: <5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D9364A1C2@DGGEMM532-MBX.china.huawei.com> <4038_1582727829_5E568295_4038_168_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DB381A@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <8ca30058-b8cf-cba4-524d-99b34e2b01d6@gont.com.ar> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:45:14 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4038_1582727829_5E568295_4038_168_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DB381A@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 14:45:30 -0000 On 26/2/20 11:37, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote: > Hi Robin, > > I think that this was expected that this specific LC would last for more > than 2 weeks. > > Summarizing and closing it is on my to do list. (I wish my to do list > were smaller, or that I throw more $$ or contributors on action items. > But wishing does not help much in my world.) > > That been said, this does not change much with regards to technical > comments been raised: > > -They are either addressed, non-addressed or pending > > -they can be raised after the WG LC (e.g. during IETF LC or IESG review) > > -they can even be raised after RFC publication. And eventually can led > to errata, bis document, deprecation… So... is the plan to ship a document that violates RFC8200? Should participants stop wasting time in constructive comments, and rather work and prepare to submit a formal appeal, instead? Thanks, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From nobody Wed Feb 26 06:53:47 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E85E3A08D5 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 06:53:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ndzf88qhHMWP for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 06:53:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from cnshjsmin03.nokia-sbell.com (cnshjsmin03.nokia-sbell.com [116.246.26.71]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86D633A08D9 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 06:53:37 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: ac189297-229ff700000011f7-32-5e56866c69c7 Received: from CNSHPPEXCH1605.nsn-intra.net (Unknown_Domain [135.251.51.105]) (using TLS with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by cnshjsmin03.nokia-sbell.com (Symantec Messaging Gateway) with SMTP id 08.08.04599.C66865E5; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 22:53:32 +0800 (HKT) Received: from CNSHPPEXCH1605.nsn-intra.net (135.251.51.105) by CNSHPPEXCH1605.nsn-intra.net (135.251.51.105) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1713.5; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 22:53:31 +0800 Received: from CNSHPPEXCH1605.nsn-intra.net ([135.251.51.105]) by CNSHPPEXCH1605.nsn-intra.net ([135.251.51.105]) with mapi id 15.01.1713.007; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 22:53:31 +0800 From: "Wang, Weibin (NSB - CN/Shanghai)" To: Mark Smith , Robert Raszuk CC: Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "Joel M. Halpern" , "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" Thread-Topic: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea Thread-Index: AQHV7DwVAeEeTCG5Bk+2Cgepiuop76gsuKKAgAABtICAABtRgIAAskKg Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 14:53:31 +0000 Message-ID: <818d3f6f3488449f8ee5d6d1159be273@nokia-sbell.com> References: <5c2a4b36-0c59-709e-23eb-00f4aa1ce52f@joelhalpern.com> <9B89F4C2-5594-4D31-8893-21F3F4A0DF6C@cisco.com> <58ED78D3-9E0C-4556-8853-8754B361DF6D@cisco.com> <81A30B25-9857-467E-85AE-1FE84B6F3197@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.251.51.115] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_818d3f6f3488449f8ee5d6d1159be273nokiasbellcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFrrAIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsXS/ts4UzenLSzOYP5iM4uPp94wWew8cpTd 4tfxXSwWB747WDQtbGK2OH7hN6MDm8eU3xtZPXbOusvusWTJTyaPc1O+M3pcb7rK7rF74wKm ALYoLpuU1JzMstQifbsEroyjX++zFby6zFyx6lBIA+O148xdjJwcEgImEjNevmfpYuTiEBI4 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<5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D9364A1C2@DGGEMM532-MBX.china.huawei.com> <4038_1582727829_5E568295_4038_168_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DB381A@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <8ca30058-b8cf-cba4-524d-99b34e2b01d6@gont.com.ar> In-Reply-To: <8ca30058-b8cf-cba4-524d-99b34e2b01d6@gont.com.ar> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.245] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 15:39:40 -0000 Fernando, > From: Fernando Gont [mailto:fernando@gont.com.ar]=20 >=20 > On 26/2/20 11:37, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote: > > Hi Robin, > >=20 > > I think that this was expected that this specific LC would last for mor= e=20 > > than 2 weeks. > >=20 > > Summarizing and closing it is on my to do list. (I wish my to do list= =20 > > were smaller, or that I throw more $$ or contributors on action items.= =20 > > But wishing does not help much in my world.) > >=20 > > That been said, this does not change much with regards to technical=20 > > comments been raised: > >=20 > > -They are either addressed, non-addressed or pending > >=20 > > -they can be raised after the WG LC (e.g. during IETF LC or IESG review) > >=20 > > -they can even be raised after RFC publication. And eventually can led= =20 > > to errata, bis document, deprecation... >=20 > So... is the plan to ship a document that violates RFC8200? The above statement was meant to say that if the technical comment is valid= , its timing (e.g., the fact that it is raised after the original Last Call= period) is not an argument to dismiss this technical argument. Then your question is orthogonal, and the answer to your question is 'No'. Note that that is also orthogonal as to whether "doing A" violates RFC X or= not. =20 > Should participants stop wasting time in constructive comments, and=20 > rather work and prepare to submit a formal appeal, instead? What is not clear in " So technical review and comments are good, at all ti= me. "? Thank you --Bruno =20 > Thanks, > --=20 > Fernando Gont > e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com > PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 >=20 >=20 > ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. From nobody Wed Feb 26 07:46:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 076AA3A09CE for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 07:46:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_DNS_FOR_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lapishills-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RACtyqX8bCCJ for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 07:46:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x430.google.com (mail-wr1-x430.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::430]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 667753A0C57 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 07:45:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x430.google.com with SMTP id e8so3641586wrm.5 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 07:45:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lapishills-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=HoZzwOUVACkjizzfMlLcATTsNEhmGIoQ5ZNBRxeGxFE=; b=xx6tBoJ9/5wMVl8yg9bAI1h0wemdkKSIOXX+PjFTtg9vRdQexZ/RJcPL5E+ANxM7ab 94wzpNN8zvQSgSPLg1Guxa2Jf7G7hb6W7l33MfvUMSN2BLBzYN/WvWfLrAqVe1rHzfaZ /iBYL1RQ4QBI7qypq8HYr+4U6btd+2Kz3gHq4LKgBERJtdXWb9yjBM72sFjJ/sri9RZn dAFDQWeUFDayHNn5oa8dJnTrVp5RUIyNG5fQYMUV8jp4loTC/NcTJL2HKVDRRIMh3OpX cAb/NtgiLHxAJbu2jvHZ3+/coZBbWKfU6a78u/c2yEN1W8MMig91qdAywKKnzwmkjjxb RqaA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=HoZzwOUVACkjizzfMlLcATTsNEhmGIoQ5ZNBRxeGxFE=; b=AkX+Dbw1Qoit8AMgqh5tH03Prwa/BNVB19LN8SKRAcf6tEwl0Q9TI1PEKbXFwEZLjQ mEPg9FJW4GVmdEWFFffUq3yDzMqj54HD33JjyeUu1jnI0h1ItQcrLkUbxKumZ5zWnN7E ul3JuziT5ejDo5j3dpLCGodH1IZYx6ee/R9fqLOLjU54/3dogfNWy2IC2zGPvNgaILJy 6Y3M/ZMoiojd9xaADM4uIZevOH8DSSXP6YRAeFp+Wjgwf3DtHPGB38V3dsf5h6SVDk3j KwLNrkTE/i4XbPbSgo3S0Iz38t7isk9ey5herXJq2+ylE7MPS7lsj/If/4J5DrbiSG4B R0fw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWke/NxhGWleQaYPeBiEPMXqg9+oaD6XbPp9cw0M4oiN0o6Ral5 jOx1aUPukL1TTnKjZcUiI8YMN1yztfuqelW5ZG0XWA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxEiy+JI+W/pzWfQu0OVRLYa9eIFncJHvgZDDUFoJroH5fL1slSIRpO1J2cDc4Paxw1KYvQwt9rt/OY8o/7Ij8= X-Received: by 2002:adf:fd4c:: with SMTP id h12mr6306605wrs.101.1582731928133; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 07:45:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <75EF2179-679B-43B1-9E8C-C85086E70021@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: From: Dirk Steinberg Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 17:45:17 +0200 Message-ID: To: Fernando Gont Cc: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" , Mark Smith , SPRING WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000059ead9059f7c7ebd" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 15:46:15 -0000 --00000000000059ead9059f7c7ebd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Fernando, I am amazed to read that you believe that you have the sole power to retroactively re-interpret the wording of existing RFCs and make changes to said wording to give documents that have existed for many years (RFC2460 more than 20 years) a new meaning. Interesting. Where can I obtain such superpowers? Best, Dirk On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 4:36 PM Fernando Gont wrote: > On 26/2/20 11:01, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote: > > Hi Mark, > > > > Thank you for your feedback. Please see inline [PC1]. > > > > Cheers, Pablo. > > > > =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message----- From: Mark Smith > > Date: Wednesday, 26 February 2020 at 01:31 > > To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" Cc: Ron Bonica > > , "Joel M. Halpern" , > > "spring@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP > > a good idea > > > > Hi Pablo, > > > > On Sat, 21 Dec 2019 at 04:38, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) > > wrote: > >> > >> Hi Ron, > >> > >> I guess we are making some progress here but going in some circles. > >> So far we have moved from =E2=80=9Cthis violates RFC8200=E2=80=9D to = =E2=80=9Cthere are no > >> use-cases or benefits=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Cthis is complex for an ASIC= =E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Cwhat is > >> the benefit again=E2=80=9D and now back to =E2=80=9Cthis is complex fo= r an ASIC=E2=80=9D. > >> > > > > As far as I know, the next header field in both the IPv6 fixed > > header and in extension headers is immutable while the packet is > > travelling within the network, as is the payload length field in the > > IPv6 base fixed header. > > > > [PC1]: Did you just make this up? ;-) RFC8200 does not talk about > > mutability. > > > > Nothing in RFC 8200 modifies those fields while the packet is in > > flight between the packet's original source and final destination, > > nor is there anything in RFC 8200 that specifies how to do those > > modifications and any other discussion about the consequences and > > considerations when doing so. > > > > [PC1]: I disagree with you. As a matter of fact RFC8200 allows the > > deletion of an extension header at a node identified in the > > destination address of the packet (page 8 paragraph 2). > > Unfortunately, the amount of creativity that has been applied during the > last few years when it comes how to read RFC2460 and RFC8200 has meant > that we have had to work harder and harder to clarify the wording in > RFC2406 and RFC8200 for folks to understand and recognize what has > always been the specification and intent of IPv6. > > I have made yet another attempt to clarify the text here: > https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5933 > > I'd hope that the submitted errata is processed, the existing spec is > honored and respected, and folks submit a formal specification update if > they mean to change IPv6 -- as opposed to try to circumvent the spec for > the n-th try. > > Thanks, > -- > Fernando Gont > e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com > PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 > > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --00000000000059ead9059f7c7ebd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Fernando,

I am amazed to read that y= ou believe that you
have the sole power to retroactively=C2=A0re-= interpret the
wording of existing RFCs and make changes to said
wording to give documents that have existed for
many yea= rs (RFC2460 more than 20 years) a=C2=A0
new meaning.
Interesting.

Where can I obtain such = superpowers?

Best,
Dirk

<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">
On Wed, Feb= 26, 2020 at 4:36 PM Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar> wrote:
On 26/2/20 11:01, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote:=
> Hi Mark,
>
> Thank you for your feedback. Please see inline [PC1].
>
> Cheers, Pablo.
>
> =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message----- From: Mark Smith
> <markzz= zsmith@gmail.com> Date: Wednesday, 26 February 2020 at 01:31
> To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com> Cc: Ron Bonica<= br> > <rbonica@j= uniper.net>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>,
> "spring@ietf= .org" <spr= ing@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP
> a good idea
>
> Hi Pablo,
>
> On Sat, 21 Dec 2019 at 04:38, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)
> <pcamaril@c= isco.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Ron,
>>
>> I guess we are making some progress here but going in some circles= .
>> So far we have moved from =E2=80=9Cthis violates RFC8200=E2=80=9D = to =E2=80=9Cthere are no
>> use-cases or benefits=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Cthis is complex for an = ASIC=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Cwhat is
>> the benefit again=E2=80=9D and now back to =E2=80=9Cthis is comple= x for an ASIC=E2=80=9D.
>>
>
> As far as I know, the next header field in both the IPv6 fixed
> header and in extension headers is immutable while the packet is
> travelling within the network, as is the payload length field in the > IPv6 base fixed header.
>
> [PC1]: Did you just make this up? ;-) RFC8200 does not talk about
> mutability.
>
> Nothing in RFC 8200 modifies those fields while the packet is in
> flight between the packet's original source and final destination,=
> nor is there anything in RFC 8200 that specifies how to do those
> modifications and any other discussion about the consequences and
> considerations when doing so.
>
> [PC1]: I disagree with you. As a matter of fact RFC8200 allows the
> deletion of an extension header at a node identified in the
> destination address of the packet (page 8 paragraph 2).

Unfortunately, the amount of creativity that has been applied during the last few years when it comes how to read RFC2460 and RFC8200 has meant
that we have had to work harder and harder to clarify the wording in
RFC2406 and RFC8200 for folks to understand and recognize what has
always been the specification and intent of IPv6.

I have made yet another attempt to clarify the text here:
https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5933

I'd hope that the submitted errata is processed, the existing spec is <= br> honored and respected, and folks submit a formal specification update if they mean to change IPv6 -- as opposed to try to circumvent the spec for the n-th try.

Thanks,
--
Fernando Gont
e-mail: fernando@= gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1



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--00000000000059ead9059f7c7ebd-- From nobody Wed Feb 26 07:57:47 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCB603A09ED for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 07:57:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_DNS_FOR_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lapishills-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mC7PPY5Ku1hd for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 07:57:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x431.google.com (mail-wr1-x431.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::431]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B720A3A09EC for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 07:57:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x431.google.com with SMTP id v4so3679716wrs.8 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 07:57:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lapishills-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=nkFl7HP/HVtTFfx5gVExbAG+Oxum9ldDEoFX5dTXAMc=; b=a0RkQNGbIOYjPKghry1bQJXE2Kx781eAbpXQzupbdVXSEmzWWQAvU99O7zTGkbEWb+ 4vUSRjah3ldLNND+IqzzqvTZR+40NpZT4h6q+xJ0mQ5RwjlOefJEQhwIvvVOir6Af2LL ksiNC6Ta3DlMeqbJj03P1dAR5tsUy3US+haAlFJE8suKb4GUaAimPrZFgsPeJ0YcaFxb m41Orp+62/8ySZyyYzrjA8KgYNUkEDgLpvytp7KspObH72qDx/1Xf7Kbe2U3JmV3RvWJ ntyVq8iX4MHbvrjuNVrBxGUeXTyOUcSVcVnX6jncQyjMBCzZ7nvz67JFARfgQQShOJk2 pdhg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=nkFl7HP/HVtTFfx5gVExbAG+Oxum9ldDEoFX5dTXAMc=; b=hqdZLTrEzOsKRxkvL53CPftvCxmyxPmYBM4YwJhB/Cyr4Uy1wMXdDVJWWWgoV0p2tQ oqwNhlmNFu5XyBR2+KVdPepCCKyYghJ8kw8LzOTsLtTWXc1V8jbC/QhxQI5T11PjQSY1 MEGrftQAccbEd0324wk0ptvgnjilf3ZSwN8BA69KKMWork+QpEUfUjDwMT2qxK4FF+vP dsAiPxug+/+qXjfAwDnhumvyD0lpPbrA/x1lO/kDWNlZWSfsR8kUTig6/PnUnYNWGSu0 2aCKub25c/a9P1PI4eidAHvGmxTjYK1fYC5LbLXdpu1pZVXgzQvpLp9/PhaUb7ncAn4X bASQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXTqiL2pXPLAeP2KPS9zKXP5nD++wbdKv0MIDwLzrQhM0DckPyP 0v7KQSTn7kIGqTm0oNbDfE6p7bSqZbgXWEsaeIpbFQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwmlBlwlRnefqohVvuPtXmcYuu0LFr0SFLRSNpP1csOabNR8iINB16zSGOHu6WlUgF3Z9P9QH93z9OwX8sSI1w= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:4384:: with SMTP id i4mr6042615wrq.215.1582732648316; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 07:57:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <75EF2179-679B-43B1-9E8C-C85086E70021@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: From: Dirk Steinberg Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 17:57:17 +0200 Message-ID: To: Fernando Gont Cc: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" , Mark Smith , SPRING WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004713e9059f7ca94b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 15:57:45 -0000 --0000000000004713e9059f7ca94b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Fernando, adding to my own comment and to be more specific: The existing RFCs are very clear in their wording that the node identified in the Destination Address field of the IPv6 header is free to do whatever it desires with the packet it just received. After all, the packet was addressed specifically to that node. These nodes are called segment endpoint nodes in SRv6. Only nodes that are *NOT* identified in the DA are prohibited from making any changes. This should be very clear, even if you seem to wish that IPv6 had been defined differently. Best, Dirk On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 5:45 PM Dirk Steinberg wrote: > Hi Fernando, > > I am amazed to read that you believe that you > have the sole power to retroactively re-interpret the > wording of existing RFCs and make changes to said > wording to give documents that have existed for > many years (RFC2460 more than 20 years) a > new meaning. > > Interesting. > > Where can I obtain such superpowers? > > Best, > Dirk > > On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 4:36 PM Fernando Gont > wrote: > >> On 26/2/20 11:01, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote: >> > Hi Mark, >> > >> > Thank you for your feedback. Please see inline [PC1]. >> > >> > Cheers, Pablo. >> > >> > =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message----- From: Mark Smith >> > Date: Wednesday, 26 February 2020 at 01:31 >> > To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" Cc: Ron Bonica >> > , "Joel M. Halpern" , >> > "spring@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP >> > a good idea >> > >> > Hi Pablo, >> > >> > On Sat, 21 Dec 2019 at 04:38, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi Ron, >> >> >> >> I guess we are making some progress here but going in some circles. >> >> So far we have moved from =E2=80=9Cthis violates RFC8200=E2=80=9D to = =E2=80=9Cthere are no >> >> use-cases or benefits=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Cthis is complex for an ASI= C=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Cwhat is >> >> the benefit again=E2=80=9D and now back to =E2=80=9Cthis is complex f= or an ASIC=E2=80=9D. >> >> >> > >> > As far as I know, the next header field in both the IPv6 fixed >> > header and in extension headers is immutable while the packet is >> > travelling within the network, as is the payload length field in the >> > IPv6 base fixed header. >> > >> > [PC1]: Did you just make this up? ;-) RFC8200 does not talk about >> > mutability. >> > >> > Nothing in RFC 8200 modifies those fields while the packet is in >> > flight between the packet's original source and final destination, >> > nor is there anything in RFC 8200 that specifies how to do those >> > modifications and any other discussion about the consequences and >> > considerations when doing so. >> > >> > [PC1]: I disagree with you. As a matter of fact RFC8200 allows the >> > deletion of an extension header at a node identified in the >> > destination address of the packet (page 8 paragraph 2). >> >> Unfortunately, the amount of creativity that has been applied during the >> last few years when it comes how to read RFC2460 and RFC8200 has meant >> that we have had to work harder and harder to clarify the wording in >> RFC2406 and RFC8200 for folks to understand and recognize what has >> always been the specification and intent of IPv6. >> >> I have made yet another attempt to clarify the text here: >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5933 >> >> I'd hope that the submitted errata is processed, the existing spec is >> honored and respected, and folks submit a formal specification update if >> they mean to change IPv6 -- as opposed to try to circumvent the spec for >> the n-th try. >> >> Thanks, >> -- >> Fernando Gont >> e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com >> PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >> > --0000000000004713e9059f7ca94b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:=20Re:=20=5Bspring= =5D=20Request=20to=20close=20the=20LC=20and=20move=20forward//RE:=20WGLC=20= -=20draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
Hi Fernando,

adding to= my own comment and to be more specific:

The exist= ing RFCs are very clear in their wording that
the node identified= in the Destination Address field of=C2=A0
the=C2=A0 IPv6 header = is free to do whatever it desires with
the packet it just receive= d. After all, the packet was
addressed specifically=C2=A0to that = node.

These nodes are called segment endpoint node= s in SRv6.

Only=C2=A0nodes that are *NOT* iden= tified in the DA are=C2=A0
prohibited from making any changes.
=C2=A0
This should be very clear, even if you seem to=C2= =A0
wish that IPv6 had been defined differently.

Best,
Dirk

On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 5= :45 PM Dirk Steinberg <dirk@lapis= hills.com> wrote:
Hi Fernando,

I am amazed to = read that you believe that you
have the sole power to retroactive= ly=C2=A0re-interpret the
wording of existing RFCs and make change= s to said
wording to give documents that have existed for
many years (RFC2460 more than 20 years) a=C2=A0
new meaning.

Interesting.

Where can I o= btain such superpowers?

Best,
Dirk
=

= On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 4:36 PM Fernando Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar> wrote:
On 26/2/20 11:01, Pabl= o Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote:
> Hi Mark,
>
> Thank you for your feedback. Please see inline [PC1].
>
> Cheers, Pablo.
>
> =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message----- From: Mark Smith
> <markzz= zsmith@gmail.com> Date: Wednesday, 26 February 2020 at 01:31
> To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com> Cc: Ron Bonica<= br> > <rbonica@j= uniper.net>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>,
> "spring@ietf= .org" <spr= ing@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP
> a good idea
>
> Hi Pablo,
>
> On Sat, 21 Dec 2019 at 04:38, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)
> <pcamaril@c= isco.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Ron,
>>
>> I guess we are making some progress here but going in some circles= .
>> So far we have moved from =E2=80=9Cthis violates RFC8200=E2=80=9D = to =E2=80=9Cthere are no
>> use-cases or benefits=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Cthis is complex for an = ASIC=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9Cwhat is
>> the benefit again=E2=80=9D and now back to =E2=80=9Cthis is comple= x for an ASIC=E2=80=9D.
>>
>
> As far as I know, the next header field in both the IPv6 fixed
> header and in extension headers is immutable while the packet is
> travelling within the network, as is the payload length field in the > IPv6 base fixed header.
>
> [PC1]: Did you just make this up? ;-) RFC8200 does not talk about
> mutability.
>
> Nothing in RFC 8200 modifies those fields while the packet is in
> flight between the packet's original source and final destination,=
> nor is there anything in RFC 8200 that specifies how to do those
> modifications and any other discussion about the consequences and
> considerations when doing so.
>
> [PC1]: I disagree with you. As a matter of fact RFC8200 allows the
> deletion of an extension header at a node identified in the
> destination address of the packet (page 8 paragraph 2).

Unfortunately, the amount of creativity that has been applied during the last few years when it comes how to read RFC2460 and RFC8200 has meant
that we have had to work harder and harder to clarify the wording in
RFC2406 and RFC8200 for folks to understand and recognize what has
always been the specification and intent of IPv6.

I have made yet another attempt to clarify the text here:
https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5933

I'd hope that the submitted errata is processed, the existing spec is <= br> honored and respected, and folks submit a formal specification update if they mean to change IPv6 -- as opposed to try to circumvent the spec for the n-th try.

Thanks,
--
Fernando Gont
e-mail: fernando@= gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1



_______________________________________________
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--0000000000004713e9059f7ca94b-- From nobody Wed Feb 26 08:25:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FAEB3A0B22 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 08:25:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JfGxtju0R13l for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 08:25:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E1DB73A0B5F for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 08:23:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48SLgz4SBkz1p0s6; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 08:23:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1582734191; bh=0vriziFry28A7k/FCaAEY6eyROg504GrTs5bq4JHXms=; h=From:Subject:To:Cc:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=CzeNBK/MnmLR9G+5tkd8sjr+Z8lJYkfjdooJlpevb8B2ky44nt29y9SG37Nwm8BNx QTVguKA6wuo7ZSweqFm2bJBJ79pM/cxTlF3JqeFKPDHrYvHjCAXmwraGgURJv3atcr +5vrSv84bkOEH+2F6Ott5Isq3XYXX+54pAUwAty8= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [10.47.231.45] (unknown [213.50.241.180]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 48SLgy4Ml0z1p0qs; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 08:23:10 -0800 (PST) From: "Joel M. Halpern" To: Robert Raszuk Cc: "spring@ietf.org" References: <5c2a4b36-0c59-709e-23eb-00f4aa1ce52f@joelhalpern.com> <9B89F4C2-5594-4D31-8893-21F3F4A0DF6C@cisco.com> <58ED78D3-9E0C-4556-8853-8754B361DF6D@cisco.com> <81A30B25-9857-467E-85AE-1FE84B6F3197@cisco.com> Message-ID: <9ad49baf-6573-f96d-6dec-e0900b0f4e0e@joelhalpern.com> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:23:08 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 16:25:15 -0000 Robert, given that PSP either pushes the envelop of what is permitted by RFC 8200 or outright violates it (which applies seems to depend upon the reader) it would seem that there ought to be a good reason for including PSP, rather than claiming that objectors need to motivate removing it. I have seen only minimal descriptions of value for PSP. We know that adding optional behaviors is undesirable in the abstract. Adding optional behaviors that push or violate the standards seems significantly worse. Yours, Joel On 2/26/2020 5:06 AM, Robert Raszuk wrote: > > So now we have one more to Pablo's list: "Let's not use it as it is hard > to troubleshoot" ... > > Clearly each new tool has a learning curve and no doubt not everyone > will know how to use it. But does this mean we should stop inventing new > things ? IMO for someone who is starting to use SRv6 PHP is the least > complex operational behaviour. > > Thx, > R. > > > On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 1:31 AM Mark Smith > wrote: > > Hi Pablo, > > On Sat, 21 Dec 2019 at 04:38, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) > > wrote: > > > >  Hi Ron, > > > > I guess we are making some progress here but going in some > circles. So far we have moved from “this violates RFC8200†to > “there are no use-cases or benefits†to “this is complex for an > ASIC†to “what is the benefit again†and now back to “this is > complex for an ASICâ€. > > > > As far as I know, the next header field in both the IPv6 fixed > header > and in extension headers is immutable while the packet is travelling > within the network, as is the payload length field in the IPv6 base > fixed header. > > Nothing in RFC 8200 modifies those fields while the packet is in > flight between the packet's original source and final > destination, nor > is there anything in RFC 8200 that specifies how to do those > modifications and any other discussion about the consequences and > considerations when doing so. > > > The IPsec AH header is providing integrity checking over fields > in the > IPv6 packet that shouldn't be being modified while the packet is > within the network. What is and isn't protected by AH can be seen to > be a specification of what processing on a packet can and cannot > occur > while it is in flight across the network towards its final > destination. > > Therefore, AH is really a quality assurance mechanism for the > network > packet processing that RFC 8200 specifies. The processing of the > packet by the network with or without the use of AH should be the > same. AH should really only be necessary if there is a belief > that the > network is likely not to be processing packets in accordance to RFC > 8200, either accidentally or intentionally. > > > Per RFC4302 (IPsec AH),  the following section explicitly states > which > fields in the IPv6 header are immutable and are to be protected > by AH: > > > 3.3.3.1.2.  ICV Computation for IPv6 > > 3.3.3.1.2.1.  Base Header Fields > >    The IPv6 base header fields are classified as follows: > > Immutable >            Version >            Payload Length >            Next Header >            Source Address >            Destination Address (without Routing Extension Header) > >    Mutable but predictable >            Destination Address (with Routing Extension Header) > >    Mutable (zeroed prior to ICV calculation) >            DSCP (6 bits, see RFC2474 [NBBB98]) >            ECN (2 bits, see RFC3168 [RFB01]) >            Flow Label (*) >            Hop Limit > >         (*) The flow label described in AHv1 was mutable, and in >             RFC 2460 [DH98] was potentially mutable.  To retain >             compatibility with existing AH implementations, the >             flow label is not included in the ICV in AHv2. > > > > > > As for how easy or not something is, the PSP behavior has > been implemented and deployed (running code). The use-cases have > been described and positively reinforced by operators. I don't > think there is any further explanation to provide. > > > > "Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should." > > How much troubleshooting experience have they had with this? > > I think a very important factor is how easy something is to > troubleshoot - how obvious is the mechanism works; is the mechanism > consistent with existing behaviours i.e. the principle of least > surprise (removing EHs at an intermediary hop certainly isn't in > IPv6, > even if the intermediary hop as the packet's current DA); when it > inevitably fails, how obvious is it where the fault is likely to be; > and how quickly can a typical fault be rectified. > > > > Regards, > Mark. > > > > > > Happy Holidays, > > Pablo. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Ron Bonica > > > Date: Tuesday, 17 December 2019 at 16:06 > > To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" >, "Joel M. Halpern" > >, > "spring@ietf.org " > > > Subject: RE: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea > > > >     Pablo, > > > >     In your message below, are you arguing that it is easier > for the penultimate node to remove the SRH than it is for the > ultimate node to ignore it? I think that would be a stretch. > > > > >                      Ron > > > > > > > >     Juniper Business Use Only > > > >     -----Original Message----- > >     From: Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) > > >     Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2019 4:50 AM > >     To: Ron Bonica >; Joel M. Halpern > >; > spring@ietf.org > >     Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea > > > >     Ron, > > > >     What is the "price paid by the penultimate segment"? All > the current implementations do this at linerate with no > performance degradation as I have explained in my email before. > > > >     There is substantial benefit. Four operators have > deployed PSP, which proves the benefit. > >     It enables new use-cases that have been provided by other > members in the list. [1], [2] and [5]. > >     From operational perspective it is not complex as > explained in [3]. > >     Operators have expressed their value in [4] and [5]. > > > >     [1].- > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/wTLJQkzC6xwSNPbhB84VH0mLXx0__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IcdXeBzk_$ > >     [2].- > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/V0ZpjVLSVZxHaBwecXFxqJjlg_c__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IcU9bihBc$ > >     [3].- > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ssobwemrPz0uEZjvRCZP1e4l_l0__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4Icc_wo902$ > >     [4].- > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/KXCBHT8Tpy17S5BsJXLBS35yZbk__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IcRXo_q-1$ > >     [5].- > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ErcErN39RIlzkL5SKNVAeEWpnAI__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!TzJ8_ZyDvWvLPNwsalQ6RiBzoLkP6Vj30eGaDVFEWdDq_IdPkWwaIL4IceGPpSab$ > > > >     Cheers, > >     Pablo. > > > >     -----Original Message----- > >     From: Ron Bonica > > >     Date: Thursday, 12 December 2019 at 21:50 > >     To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" >, "Joel M. Halpern" > >, > "spring@ietf.org " > > >     Subject: RE: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea > > > >         Pablo, > > > >         I am not convinced the benefit derived by the > ultimate segment justifies the price paid by the penultimate > segment. Specifically, > > > >         - the ultimate segment benefits because it doesn't > have to skip over the SRH with SL == 0 > >         - in order for the ultimate segment to derive this > benefit, the penultimate segment needs to remove bytes from the > middle of the packet and update two fields in the IPv6 header > > > >         As Joel said, we typically don't add options (i.e., > complexity) to a specification unless there is substantial benefit. > > > >                                                             Ron > > > > > > > > > >         Juniper Business Use Only > > > >         -----Original Message----- > >         From: spring > On Behalf Of Pablo Camarillo > (pcamaril) > >         Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2019 3:12 PM > >         To: Joel M. Halpern >; spring@ietf.org > > >         Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea > > > >         Joel, > > > >         1.- The use-case for PSP has already been provided at > the mailer. There are scenarios where it provides benefits to > operators. > > > >         2.- The PSP behavior is optional. It is up to the > operator in his deployment to decide whether to enable it or not > at one particular router. > >         Similarly, a vendor may decide not to implement it. > The PSP behavior has been implemented by several vendors and > deployed (see the srv6 deployment draft). > > > >         3.- A network may have PSP enabled at some nodes and > not at others.  Everything is still interoperable and works fine. > > > >         4.- PSP is not a complex operation in hardware > (doable at linerate on existing merchant silicon). > >         Example: It has been implemented and deployed on > Broadcom J/J+. If I recall correctly Broadcom Jericho+ started > shipping in March 2016! PSP is supported on this platform at > linerate with no performance degradation (neither PPPS nor BW). > >         Given that this is doable in a platform from more > than 3 years ago, I fail to see how you need "very special > provision" to do this. > > > >         Is it really something that horrible to provide > freedom of choice to the operators deploying? > > > >         In summary, it can be implemented without any burden > in hardware and deployment experience prove this is beneficial > to operators. > > > >         Thanks, > >         Pablo. > > > >         -----Original Message----- > >         From: spring > on behalf of "Joel M. Halpern" > > > >         Date: Wednesday, 11 December 2019 at 03:55 > >         To: "spring@ietf.org " > > > >         Subject: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea > > > >             For purposes of this thread, even if you think > PSP violates RFC 8200, > >             let us assume that it is legal. > > > >             As I understand it, the PSP situation is: > >             o the packet arrives at the place (let's not > argue about whether SIDs > >             are locators) identified by the SID in the > destination address field > >             o that SID is the next to last SID in the SID list > >             o that sid is marked as / known to be PSP > >             o at the intended place in the processing > pseudocode, the last (first) > >             entry in the SRH is copied into the destination > IPv6 address field of > >             the packet > >             -> The SRH being used is then removed from the > packet. > > > >             In order to evaluate whether this is a good idea, > we have to have some > >             idea of the benefit.  It may be that I am missing > some of the benefit, > >             and I would appreciate clarification. > >             As far as I can tell, the benefit of this removal > is that in exchange > >             for this node doing the work of removing the SRH, > the final node in the > >             SRH does not have to process the SRH at all, as > it has been removed. > > > >             I have trouble seeing how that work tradeoff can > be beneficial. > >             Removing bytes from the middle of a packet is a > complex operation. > >             Doing so in Silicon (we expect this to be done in > the fast path of > >             significant forwarders as I understand it) > requires very special > >             provision.  Even in software, removing bytes from > the middle of a packet > >             requires somewhere between some and a lot of > extra work.  It is > >             distinctly NOT free. > > > >             In contrast, we have assumed that the work of > processing SRH itself is > >             tractable, since otherwise all of SRv6 would be > problematic.  So why is > >             this necessary. > > > >             Yours, > >             Joel > > > >             PS: Note that both the MPLS case and the > encapsulation case are very > >             different in that the material being removed is > at the front of the IP > >             packet.  Pop or prepend are MUCH easier than > middle-removal (or > >             middle-insertion). > > > >             _______________________________________________ > >             spring mailing list > > spring@ietf.org > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Uvd5DRUIJlsmob5a7r4JRgMMbZcE60JOPIW3K2MubKpIuKXA1r78vsFpWAHa8hW2$ > > > > > >         _______________________________________________ > >         spring mailing list > > spring@ietf.org > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Uvd5DRUIJlsmob5a7r4JRgMMbZcE60JOPIW3K2MubKpIuKXA1r78vsFpWAHa8hW2$ > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > spring mailing list > > spring@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > From nobody Wed Feb 26 08:38:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 270343A0B45 for ; 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Wed, 26 Feb 2020 08:38:08 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5c2a4b36-0c59-709e-23eb-00f4aa1ce52f@joelhalpern.com> <9B89F4C2-5594-4D31-8893-21F3F4A0DF6C@cisco.com> <58ED78D3-9E0C-4556-8853-8754B361DF6D@cisco.com> <81A30B25-9857-467E-85AE-1FE84B6F3197@cisco.com> <05981e2ea71c4b3083ed6e15c7e20641@huawei.com> <7B51F0BE-CE40-42B8-9D87-0B764B6E00C5@steffann.nl> In-Reply-To: From: Tom Herbert Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 08:37:58 -0800 Message-ID: To: Andrew Alston Cc: Sander Steffann , Robert Raszuk , "spring@ietf.org" , 6man WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c061cb059f7d3a5b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 16:38:13 -0000 --000000000000c061cb059f7d3a5b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Feb 26, 2020, 6:26 AM Andrew Alston wrote: > Figured I=E2=80=99d add to this =E2=80=93 as I continued to read the char= ter > > > > *SPRING WG should avoid modification to existing data planes that would* > > > > > > > > > * make them incompatible with existing deployments. Where possible, > existing control and management plane protocols must be used within > existing architectures to implement the SPRING function. Any modification > of -or extension to- existing architectures, data planes, or control or > management plane protocols should be carried out in the WGs responsible f= or > the architecture, data plane, or control or management plane protocol bei= ng > modified and in coordination with the SPRING WG, but may be done in SPRIN= G > WG after agreement with all the relevant WG chairs and responsible Area > Directors.* > > > > If SRv6 is not IPv6 =E2=80=93 as is the contention =E2=80=93 (which in my= view is an > absolutely false contention > +1 > designed to step around a specification because it simply doesn=E2=80=99t= suite > what you want) - well =E2=80=93 then what exactly are we doing here =E2= =80=93 because by > that claim =E2=80=93 we are inventing a new control plane, a new data pla= ne, and > well, it=E2=80=99s a new protocol =E2=80=93 so =E2=80=93 do we have the a= greement of the relevant > WG chairs, Area Directors etc =E2=80=93 to invent an entirely new everyth= ing. > That's already happened. SRH has reinvented both protocol options, TLVs, in the network layer, as well as header authentication. Tom > > > Didn=E2=80=99t think so=E2=80=A6. > > > > Andrew > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > --000000000000c061cb059f7d3a5b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Feb 26, 2020, 6:26 AM Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.co= m> wrote:

Figured I=E2=80=99d add to this= =E2=80=93 as I continued to read the charter

=C2=A0

SPRING WG shou= ld avoid modification to existing data planes that would
make them incompatible with existing deplo= yments. Where possible,
existing control and management plane prot= ocols must be used within
existing architectures to implement the SP= RING function. Any
modification of -or extension to- existing= architectures, data planes,
or control or management plane protocols s= hould be carried out in the
WGs responsible for the architecture, data= plane, or control or
management plane protocol being modified a= nd in coordination with the
SPRING WG, but may be done in SPRING WG af= ter agreement with all the
relevant WG chairs and responsible Area Di= rectors.

=C2=A0<= /u>

If= SRv6 is not IPv6 =E2=80=93 as is the contention =E2=80=93 (which in my vie= w is an absolutely false contention


+1

designed to step around a spec= ification because it simply doesn=E2=80=99t suite what you want) - well =E2=80=93 th= en what exactly are we doing here =E2=80=93 because by that claim =E2=80=93= we are inventing a new control plane, a new data plane, and well, it=E2=80= =99s a new protocol =E2=80=93 so =E2=80=93 do we have the agreement of the = relevant WG chairs, Area Directors etc =E2=80=93 to invent an entirely new everything.<= /p>


That's already happened. SRH has reinvented both protocol op= tions, TLVs, in the network layer, as well as header authentication.
<= div dir=3D"auto">
Tom

=C2=A0

Di= dn=E2=80=99t think so=E2=80=A6.

=C2=A0

An= drew

=C2=A0

--------------------------------------------------------------------
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
ipv6@= ietf.org
Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/m= ailman/listinfo/ipv6
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--000000000000c061cb059f7d3a5b-- From nobody Wed Feb 26 08:55:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 443AA3A0C1B for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 08:55:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KOuxG_n9rkyH for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 08:55:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C1F993A0C13 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 08:55:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (unknown [181.45.84.85]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A551986B8C; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 17:55:24 +0100 (CET) To: Dirk Steinberg Cc: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" , Mark Smith , SPRING WG References: <75EF2179-679B-43B1-9E8C-C85086E70021@cisco.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 13:54:44 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 16:55:30 -0000 On 26/2/20 12:57, Dirk Steinberg wrote: > Hi Fernando, > > adding to my own comment and to be more specific: > > The existing RFCs are very clear in their wording that > the node identified in the Destination Address field of > the  IPv6 header is free to do whatever it desires with > the packet it just received. After all, the packet was > addressed specifically to that node. > > These nodes are called segment endpoint nodes in SRv6. > > Only nodes that are *NOT* identified in the DA are > prohibited from making any changes. > This should be very clear, even if you seem to > wish that IPv6 had been defined differently. Are you saying that IPv6 allows for in the network header insertion/removal? If so, please tell me how AH, Path-MTU Discovery, and ICMPv6 error reporting works -- all very basic functions of IPv6. IPv6 is an end to end protocol. With RH you change the DA on the flight, because routing only works based on the DA -- there's no other way to specify waypoints. If you claim otherwise, that can be, at best, a major misunderstanding of how IPv6 works. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From nobody Wed Feb 26 09:24:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietf.org Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C3893A0D88; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 09:24:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: spring@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.118.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: spring@ietf.org Message-ID: <158273786936.22931.16784708648490147499@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 09:24:29 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-mpls-path-segment-02.txt X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 17:24:30 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Source Packet Routing in Networking WG of the IETF. Title : Path Segment in MPLS Based Segment Routing Network Authors : Weiqiang Cheng Han Li Mach(Guoyi) Chen Rakesh Gandhi Royi Zigler Filename : draft-ietf-spring-mpls-path-segment-02.txt Pages : 13 Date : 2020-02-26 Abstract: A Segment Routing (SR) path is identified by an SR segment list. Only the complete segment list can identify the end-to-end SR path, and a sub-set of segments from the segment list cannot distinguish one SR path from another as they may be partially congruent. SR path identification is a pre-requisite for various use-cases such as Performance Measurement (PM), bidirectional paths correlation, and end-to-end 1+1 path protection. In SR for MPLS data plane (SR-MPLS), the segment identifiers are stripped from the packet through label popping as the packet transits the network. This means that when a packet reaches the egress of the SR path, it is not possible to determine on which SR path it traversed the network. This document defines a new type of segment that is referred to as Path Segment, which is used to identify an SR path in an SR-MPLS network. When used, it is inserted by the ingress node of the SR path and immediately follows the last segment identifier in the segment list of the SR path. The Path Segment will not be popped off until it reaches the egress node of the SR path. The Path Segment then can be used by the egress node to implement SR path identification and correlation. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-spring-mpls-path-segment/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-mpls-path-segment-02 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-spring-mpls-path-segment-02 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-spring-mpls-path-segment-02 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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<75EF2179-679B-43B1-9E8C-C85086E70021@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: From: Dirk Steinberg Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 19:50:47 +0200 Message-ID: To: Fernando Gont Cc: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" , Mark Smith , SPRING WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f89578059f7e3e96" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 17:51:00 -0000 --000000000000f89578059f7e3e96 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 6:55 PM Fernando Gont wrote: > On 26/2/20 12:57, Dirk Steinberg wrote: > > Hi Fernando, > > > > adding to my own comment and to be more specific: > > > > The existing RFCs are very clear in their wording that > > the node identified in the Destination Address field of > > the IPv6 header is free to do whatever it desires with > > the packet it just received. After all, the packet was > > addressed specifically to that node. > > > > These nodes are called segment endpoint nodes in SRv6. > > > > Only nodes that are *NOT* identified in the DA are > > prohibited from making any changes. > > This should be very clear, even if you seem to > > wish that IPv6 had been defined differently. > > Are you saying that IPv6 allows for in the network header > insertion/removal? > No, not on a transit node. Yes, in SRv6 on a segment endpoint node. And that is not plain IPv6 anymore, that is the innovation the SRv6 brings along. > If so, please tell me how AH, Path-MTU Discovery, and ICMPv6 error > reporting works -- all very basic functions of IPv6. > > IPv6 is an end to end protocol. The IPv6 you are referring to (end-to-end user traffic) must not be confused with what SRv6 is. SRv6 will always encapsulate said user traffic and NOT modify it at all -- just like you demand. Therefore on that user plane all functions that you talk about will continue to function as before, AH, PMTU, and all. Managing MTU so as not to blow up within a carrier network has been done successfully with MPLS for more than 20 years. SRv6 should be understood for what it is -- a modern successor to MPLS to be used as both an underlay and service layer, managed within a well-defined network domain. SRv6 SRH should never occur directly within the user IPv6 header but only within the header added and owned by the carrier running SRv6. And within their own header the network operator, after receiving the packet at the IPv6 DA, can make changes. It's their own private header, just like the MPLS label stack in SR-MPLS. If you want to take a really orthodox and strict viewpoint maybe you should view the "end-to-end" IPv6 relation as being segment endpoint to segment endpoint only. Each new SRv6 segment opens up a new IPv6 end-to-end relation, whereas the "end-to-end" relation from the SRv6 point of view is at a higher layer. Then of course you could also adopt a more liberal viewpoint and just view the entire end-to-end SRv6 path as one end-to-end IPv6 entity as well without considering the underlying segment endpoints as IPv6 endpoints. With RH you change the DA on the flight, > No -- you do not change DA in flight -- only on segment endpoints which are the DA of the IPv6 packet. When IPv6 was defined decades ago nobody was thinking about SRv6. That notion was not present then -- otherwise one might have indeed clarified some of the points that are debated today. But just because the inventors of IPv6 did not think to include SRv6 capabilities from the start this should not be used as an excuse to block innovation. One could, of course, just say that SRv6 is a completely new animal to completely avoid the current type of discussion and just redefine everything from scratch. But why should we do such a thing? IMHO it is much better to take existing IPv6 and innovate by extending it -- not changing existing behavior -- in ways that had never been envisioned by the original authors of IPv6. That is what SRv6 is doing. > because routing only works based on the DA -- there's no other way to > specify waypoints. > If you claim otherwise, that can be, at best, a major misunderstanding > of how IPv6 works. > SRv6 is not the same as IPv6. Maybe there is a misunderstanding about SRv6 here. Cheers Dirk Thanks, > -- > Fernando Gont > e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com > PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 > > > > --000000000000f89578059f7e3e96 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 6:55 PM Fernando = Gont <fernando@gont.com.ar&g= t; wrote:
On 26/= 2/20 12:57, Dirk Steinberg wrote:
> Hi Fernando,
>
> adding to my own comment and to be more specific:
>
> The existing RFCs are very clear in their wording that
> the node identified in the Destination Address field of
> the=C2=A0 IPv6 header is free to do whatever it desires with
> the packet it just received. After all, the packet was
> addressed specifically=C2=A0to that node.
>
> These nodes are called segment endpoint nodes in SRv6.
>
> Only=C2=A0nodes that are *NOT* identified in the DA are
> prohibited from making any changes.
> This should be very clear, even if you seem to
> wish that IPv6 had been defined differently.

Are you saying that IPv6 allows for in the network header insertion/removal= ?

No, not on a transit node.
=
Yes, in SRv6 on a segment endpoint node.
And that = is not plain IPv6 anymore, that is
the innovation the SRv6 brings= along.
=C2=A0
If so, please tell me how AH, Path-MTU Discovery, and ICMPv6 error
reporting works -- all very basic functions of IPv6.

IPv6 is an end to end protocol.

The IPv6 y= ou are referring to (end-to-end user traffic)
must not be confuse= d with what SRv6 is. SRv6 will
always encapsulate said user traff= ic and NOT modify
it at all -- just like you demand. Therefore on= that user
plane all functions that you talk about will continue= =C2=A0
to function as before, AH, PMTU, and all.
Managi= ng MTU so as not to blow up within a carrier network=C2=A0
has be= en done successfully with MPLS for more than 20 years.

=
SRv6 should be understood for what it is -- a modern successor
to MPLS to be used as both an underlay and service layer,
mana= ged within a well-defined network domain.

SRv6 SRH= should never occur directly within the user IPv6
header but only= within the header added and owned by the=C2=A0
carrier running S= Rv6. And within their own header the=C2=A0
network operator, afte= r receiving the packet at the IPv6 DA,
can make changes. It's= their own private header, just like
the MPLS label stack in SR-M= PLS.

If you want to take a really orthodox and str= ict viewpoint
maybe you should view the "end-to-end" IP= v6 relation
as being segment endpoint to segment endpoint only.
Each new SRv6 segment opens up a new IPv6 end-to-end
rel= ation, whereas the "end-to-end" relation from the SRv6
= point of view is at a higher layer.

Then of course= you could also adopt a more liberal viewpoint
and just view the = entire end-to-end SRv6 path as one=C2=A0
end-to-end IPv6 entity a= s well without considering the=C2=A0
underlying segment endpoints= as IPv6 endpoints.

With RH you change the DA on the flight,

No -- you do not change DA in flight -- only on segment e= ndpoints
which are the DA of the IPv6 packet. When IPv6 was defin= ed
decades ago nobody was thinking about SRv6. That notion was
not present then -- otherwise one might have indeed clarified some<= /div>
of the points that are debated today. But just because the invent= ors
of IPv6 did not think to include SRv6 capabilities from the s= tart
this should not be used as an excuse to block innovation.

One could, of course, just say that SRv6 is a comple= tely=C2=A0new animal
to completely avoid the current type of disc= ussion and just redefine
everything from scratch. But why should = we do such a thing?
IMHO it is much better to take existing IPv6 = and innovate by
extending it -- not changing existing behavior --= in ways that had
never been envisioned by the original authors o= f IPv6.
That is what SRv6 is doing.
=C2=A0
because routing only works based on the DA -- there's no other way to <= br> specify waypoints.

If you claim otherwise, that can be, at best, a major misunderstanding
of how IPv6 works.

SRv6 is not the same= as IPv6.

Maybe there is a misunderstanding about = SRv6 here.
=C2=A0
Cheers
Dirk

<= /div>
Thanks,
--
Fernando Gont
e-mail: fernando@= gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1



--000000000000f89578059f7e3e96-- From nobody Wed Feb 26 09:52:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B67C3A0EAB for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 09:52:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_DNS_FOR_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lapishills-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U53RozhupOzk for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 09:52:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x330.google.com (mail-wm1-x330.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::330]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68EBC3A0EA8 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 09:52:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x330.google.com with SMTP id m3so198116wmi.0 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 09:52:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lapishills-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=TgrLbsx0D615TLIp/Wt1KqeADbubPHtQzewqR901mSY=; b=LUh+55xhXDlgOcPt4lmA0+v0v6WWp83J9WLMJNJgAd0SKduuf6I8rjxPWZdSf1h5HG XsDp2+u6exOaVuL3Let5ddee/+hQJ4RrEACQ2YnIq2063Ew66ybDtQIfhjlKzg9GBoBw JLzIjWfI2BTpasQEeBE31YXMwRKauUJMNVVsfZ/Muc8XeoJJNsGs9MD18j92HRD/AhvE 1MmaGG3iXoPSD1axvZ2saqWgXP173y4/LkzwwpYrhnpD0G3TV6BQ5fzOdHRZTEEKfxXX 9SSYjnFIBxhAO7JvIGn+FkYkT1VZhT85zEJj1HEHXNgN8td+aj4MCK36BIVZ7w2jeaA+ Tncw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=TgrLbsx0D615TLIp/Wt1KqeADbubPHtQzewqR901mSY=; b=XoPDmaH5vUb+lG8bY8gCaoORZR7ojfAO9nZAgchC4JOzsCsmdr0oFjZOYWVXFnf+LE HycA6XGx6FLujfnZPCuUDnHfeL/CmxgVfqux4cjQDbk1zcKwKL6/SvwOM9rg82yfYrj0 tz95XKxwMiRNJWV8vQXHKQTh1X6Imfdvfl205dCqHkYDmCfe/ryArfpFVLkzT9b9Ddf3 q6un9E++G4HZH4DYvcRB5XCNnI4EzeGakqBPvpfRAW1YeOgPmlVAZCkUOKy1xLyH3LSz o6I0AQKpFXB7labwz2zc5NXtaZaXI5OwbPrxrCf5fFwfYmt3IJ13DEjEv4c2EE5x7Kii OAPw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUYKqlTMTrobnzPD7bG4gxoZ3POaM4GFJXEVMRQjAxluSTHYhcv K7AMla347uZnSiFojwvLcrSGdtdx6DHXxZ0XBm1PVQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxlX01KPaHhtp6HjQVQUVIbQDFIYKU63C9Up03l2LSfH0hykeW+wBICOJ60FyTESz8ynfyMvUstpNs6t9Y1GhU= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:6884:: with SMTP id d126mr70327wmc.38.1582739543580; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 09:52:23 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <55795690-EB0D-45F1-8483-675B061C6739@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <55795690-EB0D-45F1-8483-675B061C6739@cisco.com> From: Dirk Steinberg Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 19:52:17 +0200 Message-ID: To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" Cc: Lizhenbin , "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000447cc9059f7e4416" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 17:52:27 -0000 --000000000000447cc9059f7e4416 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1 Cheers Dirk On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 7:43 PM Zafar Ali (zali) wrote: > +1, > > > > Just to add, in the spirit of IETF https://www.ietf.org/how/runningcode/ > =E2=80=A6 > > implementation, commercial deployment and Inter-op status has been > documented in > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-= status/ > > > > Thanks > > > > Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar > > > > *From: *spring on behalf of Lizhenbin < > lizhenbin@huawei.com> > *Date: *Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 6:55 AM > *To: *"bruno.decraene@orange.com" , 'SPRING WG > List' > *Cc: *"6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming < > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org> > *Subject: *[spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming > > > > Hi Bruno and WG, > > The LC has lasted for almost 3 months which greatly exceeds the expected = 2 > week. In the process all the comments have been resolved while some issue= s > is raised again and again with little value. > > On the other hand, there have been multiple commercial implementation and > inter-op test and almost 20 deployments for SRv6 which justify the soluti= on > proposed by the draft in practice. > > > > We sincerely request to close the LC of the draft and move forward. > > > > > > > > Best Regards, > > Zhenbin (Robin) > > > > > > *From:* bruno.decraene@orange.com [mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com] > *Sent:* Friday, December 06, 2019 1:15 AM > *To:* 'SPRING WG List' > *Cc:* 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming < > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org> > *Subject:* WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming > > > > Hello SPRING, > > > > This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-sprin= g-srv6-network-programming [1]. > > > > Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent version, an= d send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later than December 20. > > > > You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not dupli= cating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which are only spri= ng specifics. > > > > If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically debated = on the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread for this point. > > This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this point and = that other points get forgotten (or that the thread get converted into para= llel independent discussions) > > > > Thank you, > > Bruno > > > > [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programmin= g-05 > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________= ________________________________________________ > > > > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confid= entielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc > > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez re= cu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler > > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages = electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, > > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme o= u falsifie. Merci. > > > > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged i= nformation that may be protected by law; > > they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. > > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and de= lete this message and its attachments. > > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have bee= n modified, changed or falsified. > > Thank you. > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --000000000000447cc9059f7e4416 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+1

Cheers
Dirk

On We= d, Feb 26, 2020 at 7:43 PM Zafar Ali (zali) <zali=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

+1,

=C2=A0

Just to add, in the spirit of IETF https://www.ietf.org/how/runningcode/ =E2=80=A6

implementation, commercial deployment and Inter-op s= tatus has been documented in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-st= atus/

=C2=A0

Thanks

=C2=A0

Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar

=C2=A0

From: = spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org<= /a>> on behalf of Lizhenbin <lizhenbin@huawei.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 6:55 AM
To: "bruno.decraene@orange.com" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>, 'SP= RING WG List' <= spring@ietf.org>
Cc: "6man@ie= tf.org" <6ma= n@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC= - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

=C2=A0

Hi Bruno and WG,

The LC has lasted for almost 3 months which greatly exceeds the expected = 2 week. In the process all the comments have been resolved while some issue= s is raised again and again with little value.

On the other hand, there have been multiple commercial implementation and= inter-op test and almost 20 deployments for SRv6 which justify the solutio= n proposed by the draft in practice.

=C2=A0

We sincerely request to close the LC of the draft and move forward.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Best Regards,

Zhenbin (Robin)

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: bruno.decraene@orange.com [m= ailto:bruno.= decraene@orange.com]
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2019 1:15 AM
To: 'SPRING WG List' <spring@ietf.org>
Cc: 6man@ietf.org= ; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ie= tf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
Subject: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming=

=C2=A0

Hello SPRING,
=C2=A0
This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-sp=
ring-srv6-network-programming [1].
=C2=A0
Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent vers=
ion, and send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later than December 2=
0.
=C2=A0
You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not du=
plicating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which are only s=
pring specifics.
=C2=A0
If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically debat=
ed on the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread for this poi=
nt.
This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this point a=
nd that other points get forgotten (or that the thread get converted into p=
arallel independent discussions)
=C2=A0
Thank you,
Bruno
=C2=A0
[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-iet=
f-spring-srv6-network-programming-05
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

____________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________________________
=C2=A0
Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir de=
s informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc=

pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisa=
tion. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<=
u>
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les piec=
es jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,=

Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a =
ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
=C2=A0
This message and its attachments may contain confide=
ntial or privileged information that may be protected by law;=

they should not be distributed, used or copied witho=
ut authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please not=
ify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for m=
essages that have been modified, changed or falsified.=

Thank you.
_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
--000000000000447cc9059f7e4416-- From nobody Wed Feb 26 10:01:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 255EA3A0F1E; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 10:01:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1c7QaJZFXq3Y; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 10:01:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7321F3A0F19; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 10:01:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (unknown [181.45.84.85]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A432F834B9; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 19:01:49 +0100 (CET) To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" , Lizhenbin , "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , 'SPRING WG List' Cc: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming References: <55795690-EB0D-45F1-8483-675B061C6739@cisco.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 15:00:55 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <55795690-EB0D-45F1-8483-675B061C6739@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 18:01:55 -0000 On 26/2/20 14:43, Zafar Ali (zali) wrote: > +1, > > Just to add, in the spirit of IETF https://www.ietf.org/how/runningcode/ … > > implementation, commercial deployment and Inter-op status has been > documented in > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-status/ You probably missed the "small" detail of having rough consensus to change an existing spec. Just sayin'... -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Wed Feb 26 10:22:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 399DE3A1065; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 10:22:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6HGSYZRhCw7M; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 10:22:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x535.google.com (mail-pg1-x535.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::535]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 863A73A1088; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 10:22:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x535.google.com with SMTP id r77so51404pgr.12; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 10:22:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=MJBxOyS09BT8fgHK6xpYsPaXXPYodwmy2OU9xAOGR9U=; b=GpdGFe3VpWHYEutFHOCtSVsqZ6MFjcUg0XzhAiYISKFQsMHkDa8MH4rvNeywYh4JJN NvcJKfSq+NWB/V7c3AVV9UTj18thSbpmdbYpOPz2dwL7Bd9gt0PHmaWa7QZscqFaoUxq 7ySYVTPO/06Y0vkRZxf3x6btL6Ou9ja9W0F06kbbmmxOCBrR+8dN2g/Ss7HqAr9ST16R hJ1mdhpvKhknzc7gQp9IDTUbAaXazgFdf1uXukH/vu6AKU4rfpVjWZUnkUTOSUZQ6e63 5rWm+UpQjLepsn1FxztzT5ycC7/7wINTtiucKOlrb9Fmb4g57yt9E+Kx4IVdWI5/AhbQ cXKw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=MJBxOyS09BT8fgHK6xpYsPaXXPYodwmy2OU9xAOGR9U=; b=EPIZHWO+TGWxmaNAdQiMaykCZ9nn7aqngRZPIhoh1EHok665IbTe1OxgbAVaU7Suzh OUtllZKln8VX/81+uwpelugCno6Pa4hCV1sEiZbxvo2lCS9b7wT3yEnLkeG4pAY8Y5Du y9ZWbi1mOWqSTlwAhFHqujmew14oj2zTS4JA3NI+8ityy13CMUAhy7q/B79uHizhE1jK uhCyrq9IpSPQqotCyM8QZKbqLkWUqQ2XS7kElQCuFt231sL1JD1Bf4Sb+pWsRRfMB5SI f/34ult8obb5uVg0EUZSOl7pm+wGBYFkD6FgWzpoZPc8zsYRDTsb6DPVCE5fbNlvQl5y vMPA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU9LbSgwLjcv/TMXchtVslEpe9OM2122aCbPyl0af6/J+b4SN9z Iu2g2jLEHi3npY3IH9qwxd8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwTt679ElDHXQx/V3JFP90MVqNVsLiVXOcbfSUJ7g3mzkQ4ccABr/N3yMQ8xaTfML5U5yetrA== X-Received: by 2002:a62:f247:: with SMTP id y7mr5545671pfl.5.1582741341818; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 10:22:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.52.15.12] (rrcs-67-52-140-11.west.biz.rr.com. [67.52.140.11]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y23sm3855379pfn.101.2020.02.26.10.22.20 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 26 Feb 2020 10:22:21 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_2FA0E49B-8B8F-407C-975F-0AFB8DCFC7FE"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 10:22:19 -0800 In-Reply-To: <55795690-EB0D-45F1-8483-675B061C6739@cisco.com> Cc: Bob Hinden , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" References: <55795690-EB0D-45F1-8483-675B061C6739@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 18:22:25 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_2FA0E49B-8B8F-407C-975F-0AFB8DCFC7FE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Zafar, > On Feb 26, 2020, at 9:43 AM, Zafar Ali (zali) = wrote: >=20 > +1, >=20 > Just to add, in the spirit of IETF = https://www.ietf.org/how/runningcode/ =E2=80=A6 > implementation, commercial deployment and Inter-op status has been = documented in = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-s= tatus/ I think the proper question is there a consensus to advance this = document. There seems to be questions about its relationship with RFC8200. I am = not seeing this as being resolved. Bob --Apple-Mail=_2FA0E49B-8B8F-407C-975F-0AFB8DCFC7FE Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAl5Wt1sACgkQrut0EXfn u6iyzwf7BbV3yy5/xI1nNzRkxsPABcw6Wppi3FzyM/jRRqlluMXakqbDRWyOooMq CXU3OYs0f3Ic8C6TR8d/9DyqpegGAUCmTzltla76d35Qv51Po/GQ9v2LDbsIgSP7 4P4KCe4O2mo0DHgDIrjGOc/Ef/ULcwgayBNjrQqNZRhQqrUP4SsufOSiLIVaoIbi DrrxB1Cq73HmFDShCHzG4knjc9eLMiE3Z42QyOfYqxHFZBnJg2JaYEHP/DD60yYr PpYIn6C0nSmhDT43a0uuzN9NJvYOArM++RdN10SnfelrhevggeGw7rVVCL04Urdj pve79JlzxQKsskY28LULlFZV3s0GiA== =v0rZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_2FA0E49B-8B8F-407C-975F-0AFB8DCFC7FE-- From nobody Wed Feb 26 11:01:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CC743A1197 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:01:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aZX2iRM8k6Ud for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:01:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from atl4mhob25.registeredsite.com (atl4mhob25.registeredsite.com [209.17.115.122]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C73A3A116D for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:01:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailpod.hostingplatform.com ([10.30.71.205]) by atl4mhob25.registeredsite.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 01QJ1BpV023266 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 14:01:11 -0500 Received: (qmail 10708 invoked by uid 0); 26 Feb 2020 19:01:11 -0000 X-TCPREMOTEIP: 174.194.156.129 X-Authenticated-UID: john@leddy.net Received: from unknown (HELO ?100.102.9.72?) (john@leddy.net@174.194.156.129) by 0 with ESMTPA; 26 Feb 2020 19:01:10 -0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: John Leddy Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:01:09 -0800 Message-Id: <5D218BFB-0D6F-4F7D-858F-B571A67DC47F@leddy.net> References: Cc: "Zafar Ali (zali)" , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> In-Reply-To: To: Bob Hinden X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17D50) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 19:01:25 -0000 +1 in support of moving the document forward. John Leddy Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 26, 2020, at 10:22 AM, Bob Hinden wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFZafar, >=20 >> On Feb 26, 2020, at 9:43 AM, Zafar Ali (zali) wrote: >>=20 >> +1, >>=20 >> Just to add, in the spirit of IETF https://www.ietf.org/how/runningcode/ =E2= =80=A6 >> implementation, commercial deployment and Inter-op status has been docume= nted in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deploy= ment-status/ >=20 > I think the proper question is there a consensus to advance this document.= >=20 > There seems to be questions about its relationship with RFC8200. I am not= seeing this as being resolved. >=20 > Bob >=20 >=20 >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Wed Feb 26 11:16:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3BB83A1272 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:16:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VX2u2hQSygZZ for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:16:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x732.google.com (mail-qk1-x732.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::732]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2EF353A1238 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:16:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x732.google.com with SMTP id u124so543426qkh.13 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:16:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=K9JpOieJd2wVgQbueic+KuEgudJqktELSVEIgIrBcHs=; b=eygD+QKRu7Oby7SAKGQWkG28JwqgWaenChBQKBOuqg8ZmOUlcb6i6iAhML1/BKpR89 laq1mfFhZHJ4WaV6IIPVL+Kofmlb5zyLon4oZVo8EI+BXtO1F/T/fZd6DwO6hoTAoR/h 4AhQZNedLq0XvZq9LmwUV4Gd9ExiPj0PQSqYx2/T80pI+CdoHDnbvTL8eUQ81fo02KzC 27t5OMJmvhbnxrCUzt29ufPDOWeGfK0ftKyx/YMxzq1+9BD1Ni3+kUXuhER+7uTNxDwl PDOgkAuOVccdk+JcS2EIrsRXpkou6AJxUqjyR7odlLSEeyxAuZQwXFjWhogRB6rOiZdR JW9w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=K9JpOieJd2wVgQbueic+KuEgudJqktELSVEIgIrBcHs=; b=HN03MZULUKBlB0cv+gyQ2qiKIVWUQ4Nh3GI1aXB+HKuFGQaDFAZQnokNWAT5y+ApP0 /1F5UGZm3odmzo/ovJK+a/21W8piBWf/r7EUvcSKAU4N7r10iQJJaV0/RC5a8NQP4jJG g4s5OlfDIo5JG37JhynD2efjKDFpS/tpiEytCznIsWA9esLdXYEQRfi4tabc5cYhMWTX c4ZT4iCL0S6mLDMJW8AnYhA3GC4QG6TAZrsuPi/tg/FJJJRqgc2eyV5xujPJTSBdogs3 EmsqZOreUbdlPMxF1wNHiBb3BJ2YquBl/Gq8NX0XAANzBqoGhrsi0ezUw4VyIC+O/xpq RGwQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVmPLn8n9G8D//RlM27VNo9iCTaPzGRaLcaS9irXWeiQX5/BxEy FjjUqWj31YO2W02kW3vsLUv/zkakII+ue/zkRM/9Pw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyyTRmWxjZsOKKOgUqdVj6p5TZiyprfKTeTtD4Hc0wRcESdg8j20yZ4TMgxU7kYxDR2ELJOpuMD5lonmPNCboY= X-Received: by 2002:a37:9047:: with SMTP id s68mr693184qkd.63.1582744566595; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:16:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5D218BFB-0D6F-4F7D-858F-B571A67DC47F@leddy.net> In-Reply-To: <5D218BFB-0D6F-4F7D-858F-B571A67DC47F@leddy.net> From: Warren Kumari Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 14:15:30 -0500 Message-ID: To: John Leddy Cc: Bob Hinden , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 19:16:21 -0000 I would suggest that people read RFC 7282 - "On Consensus and Humming in the IETF", especially Sections 3 & 6 (it is a short document, you should read the whole thing, but pay special attention to these sections). It doesn't really matter how many people say +1 for moving it forwards -- if there are valid technical objections these have to be dealt with - and I think that the relationship with RFC8200 falling into this category... W On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 2:01 PM John Leddy wrote: > > +1 in support of moving the document forward. > > John Leddy > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Feb 26, 2020, at 10:22 AM, Bob Hinden wrote: > > > > =EF=BB=BFZafar, > > > >> On Feb 26, 2020, at 9:43 AM, Zafar Ali (zali) wrote: > >> > >> +1, > >> > >> Just to add, in the spirit of IETF https://www.ietf.org/how/runningcod= e/ =E2=80=A6 > >> implementation, commercial deployment and Inter-op status has been doc= umented in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-de= ployment-status/ > > > > I think the proper question is there a consensus to advance this docume= nt. > > > > There seems to be questions about its relationship with RFC8200. I am = not seeing this as being resolved. > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > ipv6@ietf.org > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- --=20 I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf From nobody Wed Feb 26 11:24:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8C2D3A1184; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:24:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DE0fSDxFRjdq; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:24:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x42e.google.com (mail-wr1-x42e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8BB963A1179; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:24:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x42e.google.com with SMTP id p18so126479wre.9; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:24:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:subject:date:message-id :references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=wy89sbby+d/VF2Mr5prXmTguA308ufSBbGbXyxBHtrM=; b=DdkIV+6l8IJerKeTs62XObMRbu8/ZicoJxb5TqkHpw4z7/4QpakWyECDL9qbe5whKj LFAjTBIuYaIAToiPVP5bYnJx/oRsDaeId25uzbjWcqxvMaAdvEckxR9VRmYROLMEE5O1 bKDW6a1caEA9URxMXzU6/kNolIgNX16vERKrOsn/WEeTHPiGj8WQ6z/CKzoTc475JG1p QAV4HMiG2NHZexcI0Dh5O8Lay5UiEnDijhkJmvntMgChShkuSsOoRn5vP2UFhx9V9KWF rHJLvLP25ZnWwOpzgMRi3UnGF3/VUdg4IrvZh2pZs7hWCwUB48xQ2E/JBO6EAwkOh7oG OPpA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version :subject:date:message-id:references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=wy89sbby+d/VF2Mr5prXmTguA308ufSBbGbXyxBHtrM=; b=geNuBuHUOlV+hGNoT3P9onljgFmqcGX3r4w2IFJQyGlFBH/0lvtnN0cqvWyqA5dngm dXF94IdLDTi/pEgBEaySQLrg0gKXaY7jM3NNje+IWbWNVxpH4tOxWW37Z/c+bbSBZYwm uHYUrP1I1jFrTvTV6gGdhJ5WGy7gPz1EPGvSEuI11fxBj2TVTUYbgu8N3yFGtl35BUIc hRfR1Vv83auuhF/C9auTqAd9BBX6vWA3I6GPkNHyaTpViFP/LghAmd90hn9kHHVT+Z/9 uZ1I+irBmB+nTkxYSLRI5kX3qACVpn8d3QFl8Z3dXMRYNSHdkzegpJ2p9ru+61AtNvu0 9gIQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXFspILRYshA9ieXttomSrq4uHUEcMVIVRA0dNNxzlK6F0m7UdW S+2ntuKnB0Xi5wN/Tbp7aoEr0DcG X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyCNgZNTX9mOhI/H1NCublklt7UFTz5+n67LVP4d1I1JlmhXe1wt4GEMaQIpP9ze0AoGp4MBg== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:4ac8:: with SMTP id y8mr187931wrs.272.1582745075847; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:24:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:1270:0:6023:e9ba:c03b:9604? ([2001:67c:1270:0:6023:e9ba:c03b:9604]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h13sm5122519wrw.54.2020.02.26.11.24.35 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:24:35 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Mike Simpson Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 19:24:30 +0000 Message-Id: References: Cc: John Leddy , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden , "Zafar Ali (zali)" In-Reply-To: To: Warren Kumari X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17E5233g) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 19:24:40 -0000 On 26 Feb 2020, at 19:16, Warren Kumari wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFI would suggest that people read RFC 7282 - "On Consensus and Hum= ming > in the IETF", especially Sections 3 & 6 (it is a short document, you > should read the whole thing, but pay special attention to these > sections). >=20 > It doesn't really matter how many people say +1 for moving it forwards > -- if there are valid technical objections these have to be dealt with > - and I think that the relationship with RFC8200 falling into this > category... >=20 > W >=20 +1 for not violating RFC8200 Mike >> On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 2:01 PM John Leddy wrote: >>=20 >> +1 in support of moving the document forward. >>=20 >> John Leddy >>=20 >> Sent from my iPhone >>=20 >>>> On Feb 26, 2020, at 10:22 AM, Bob Hinden wrote: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BFZafar, >>>=20 >>>> On Feb 26, 2020, at 9:43 AM, Zafar Ali (zali) wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> +1, >>>>=20 >>>> Just to add, in the spirit of IETF https://www.ietf.org/how/runningcode= / =E2=80=A6 >>>> implementation, commercial deployment and Inter-op status has been docu= mented in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-depl= oyment-status/ >>>=20 >>> I think the proper question is there a consensus to advance this documen= t. >>>=20 >>> There seems to be questions about its relationship with RFC8200. I am n= ot seeing this as being resolved. >>>=20 >>> Bob >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>> ipv6@ietf.org >>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>=20 >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >> ipv6@ietf.org >> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad > idea in the first place. > This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing > regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair > of pants. > ---maf >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Wed Feb 26 11:40:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F362F3A115C; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:40:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BRZ4YHWXQZVi; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:40:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-f51.google.com (mail-wr1-f51.google.com [209.85.221.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 365363A1168; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:40:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-f51.google.com with SMTP id z3so228572wru.3; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:40:09 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=tAe0CQ1eldWsrquzYwYedvD++9+c2We2U7zhrmyNhM4=; b=fg6uSuwsmHZlxMnwL20/wnTomPePOWzZGV1qahmSS1f+TvJmBBPqszpVRyZAv0ToGK Rz30HDxLzvZF5C3XpymZcE/sgVtKgyJ8j5K390MR03ReUE0DTs7R5USXfsDivoDBpkl/ pHix+dA5THEsUpgecudvlUlz2xZnQRyZEccoBusivEDiTCvUORRepB5JKS538qW/6WFu NN9pKevYq1VHb2dD/lJsqbWedaIKTyxSE5ViM8Oc+9HHnO7YMzuBHYwvCbolAKt/Au1/ WmcHTaWa0QJBBCOyLPFNx1vb82SuwMKd/JoNt4LkBTgD7uO2Iwp5f6sNLZOtkbLYSU6o pjXQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXjTWBbpnBDux7cjsiyLrRcDLYEhOq5riRjDmcXCp9V44RkqOUB H9mqswekJO85NKLJTlzXyfMmX332kSsqUfemz0A= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxm8nsg/GsokdcEy5IdIaN+6+IHtGXUuzBFPcJz/qQaHk0XTIe53Guj7XtQ9c3HB9FsKSxpMIFmHIpn1ULTBYM= X-Received: by 2002:adf:fd0e:: with SMTP id e14mr220758wrr.127.1582746007473; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:40:07 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D9364A1C2@DGGEMM532-MBX.china.huawei.com> <4038_1582727829_5E568295_4038_168_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DB381A@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <8ca30058-b8cf-cba4-524d-99b34e2b01d6@gont.com.ar> In-Reply-To: <8ca30058-b8cf-cba4-524d-99b34e2b01d6@gont.com.ar> From: =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:39:55 -0800 Message-ID: To: Fernando Gont Cc: bruno.decraene@orange.com, Lizhenbin , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 19:40:11 -0000 At Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:45:14 -0300, Fernando Gont wrote: > So... is the plan to ship a document that violates RFC8200? Please forgive me asking some clarification question that seems to be obvious for others: which part of draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10 violates RFC8200? From a quick read of it, Section 4.16 seems to describe the removal of an extension header from an IPv6 packet at a forwarding node. Is that the one referenced as a violation? Or is it something else, or are there others in addition to 4.16? -- JINMEI, Tatuya From nobody Wed Feb 26 11:45:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 251913A1306 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:45:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FTPZdM3DVv4h for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:45:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x32d.google.com (mail-ot1-x32d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0AE8E3A12FA for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:45:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x32d.google.com with SMTP id j16so625074otl.1 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:45:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=kQoVRBkXWEG10lw0stA6phMlF7Xcm3IHEufjxqtExSw=; b=NOala5/kIkIDh96TT3QV6Ry98SGlmzNq8MpFvX2pENn9yefA9pYntyhV+fJpqiB73n WdVQBV4yhJcFEykubb9CO4SRC2Qvs8yFyaPbPHyL7r3WB9QNxP3EIumjpv4NjhLrqiai 5UYe5ZVUarGP0rBLh708QRk6ZP2GLBpXqRWbwIF4R8Qds4xI7CMQcoidx7jASFVlkgLu xB/QFsEYH+ZTAeMJ5rD4n+H9w/OHoS4VD1tgq4WvpyUcp/p6m1KwWgT8EeBdMuPLo5OW IstCw9ERbkZ0WoKBfXxpvmiJHTu2k6+sX5ALZL9P7wC9KU1yTtt6ERh0VwfDZP5E6MMl 9URA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=kQoVRBkXWEG10lw0stA6phMlF7Xcm3IHEufjxqtExSw=; b=Yug0VdsuncawNCQX0Ug8ecxhFpcUHY04KIvD9MyMwh/2LVviggRySFsyrgPjfpkYnA aD6qLKhARltKvLpycSLKW17quvYX7Jq+2495FOLxC/mgxWjNYUMUfGAMeuo4YURD4jJz DacbNiREpONIXo+AWksjKC270wfT67jn6YI5dr6wBUizF8ZeQFD5unhuDtGRrslPUmtU F3yxbVrp+u6wNJVr2KET7Y3TibbIWgKPciq7BI/hnZzvI0XvMN3J916JCIQuzl6a/hw4 oSZLNZPlB0PHn1NP/pZ/1U/kzSjVLm9TETNuIbgzQzypOcwbq/nzPelHQnYPpnFm3f8g Fa+Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXam4acj62ej9W30m73iIOtiw6vyXzcqJI7FkpGp33cTS4m7Yjs 5PQXyUikREutsmfKyGu6oHl+z2mwf+jrt4SiyZ65H9WZ X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqza3W0G1B3xZODBpruIBqSbHTjWxj5wFmYHS5W++1oI5ObGFulxJgxIZ0/wFCEW6pC7sSofv4n53kC7IbrTvFU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:160c:: with SMTP id g12mr353708otr.82.1582746303149; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:45:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7B51F0BE-CE40-42B8-9D87-0B764B6E00C5@steffann.nl> <47B4D89B-D752-4F4C-8226-41FCB0A610F0@retevia.net> In-Reply-To: <47B4D89B-D752-4F4C-8226-41FCB0A610F0@retevia.net> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 20:44:52 +0100 Message-ID: To: Sander Steffann Cc: "spring@ietf.org" , 6man WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002b50e1059f7fd78f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 19:45:12 -0000 --0000000000002b50e1059f7fd78f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hey Sander, No worries ... three IPv6 musketeers have already presented themselves well to this discussion. This was just one more demo of it. No need to apologize - at least me :) And while you can call someone's opinion the way you like - the fact that SRv6 builds on top of IPv6 does not make it automatically IPv6 extension. My perhaps subtle point was that while politically it has been sold like minor IPv6 extension from technical point it does not need to be positioned like one. The sole fact that it reuses the same ethertype does not make it an extension. Now as I have already been through my round of circular explanations in the previous months - now I just sit and watch how it goes round and round again. Best, R., On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 8:22 PM Sander Steffann wrote: > Hi, > > >> Regardless if folks agree or not with that SRv6 is a new data plane. > SRv6 != IPv6 that's obvious. > >> > >> It also does not attempt to *extend* IPv6. It reuses some IPv6 elements > and makes sure non SRv6 nodes can treat the packets as vanilla IPv6, but > that's it. With that in mind all of this going back and forth between > SPRING and 6MAN to me is triggered by wrong positioning of SRv6 as a new > transport. > > > > This is completely bogus. SRv6 is not a new L3 protocol that just > happens to be compatible with IPv6. That is insane BS. > > I have been told by good friends that my language was inappropriate. It > probably is, but I'm not going to apologize for it. I and others have tried > the polite way unsuccessfully and are still ignored by the authors. This > has been going on for far too long, and if it's necessary that someone > stops being polite and call it out then I'll be the one to do it. > > Cheers, > Sander > > > --0000000000002b50e1059f7fd78f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey Sander,

No worries ... three IPv6 m= usketeers have already presented themselves well to this discussion. This w= as just one more demo of it. No need to apologize - at least me :)=C2=A0

And while you can call someone's opinion the way= you like - the fact that SRv6 builds on top of IPv6 does not make it autom= atically IPv6 extension.=C2=A0

My perhaps subtle p= oint was that while politically it has been sold like minor IPv6 extension = from technical point it does not need to be positioned=C2=A0like one. The s= ole fact that it reuses the same ethertype does not make it an extension.= =C2=A0

Now as I have already been through my round= of circular explanations in the previous months - now I just sit and watch= how it goes round and round again.=C2=A0

Best,
R.,


On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 8:22 PM Sander Stef= fann <sander@retevia.net> w= rote:
Hi,

>> Regardless if folks agree or not with that SRv6 is a new data plan= e. SRv6 !=3D IPv6 that's obvious.
>>
>> It also does not attempt to *extend* IPv6. It reuses some IPv6 ele= ments and makes sure non SRv6 nodes can treat the packets as vanilla IPv6, = but that's it. With that in mind all of this going back and forth betwe= en SPRING and 6MAN to me is triggered by wrong positioning of SRv6 as a new= transport.
>
> This is completely bogus. SRv6 is not a new L3 protocol that just happ= ens to be compatible with IPv6. That is insane BS.

I have been told by good friends that my language was inappropriate. It pro= bably is, but I'm not going to apologize for it. I and others have trie= d the polite way unsuccessfully and are still ignored by the authors. This = has been going on for far too long, and if it's necessary that someone = stops being polite and call it out then I'll be the one to do it.

Cheers,
Sander


--0000000000002b50e1059f7fd78f-- From nobody Wed Feb 26 12:08:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 248653A1345; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:07:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=steffann.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kyy262fuSUby; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:07:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sintact.nl (mail.sintact.nl [83.247.10.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A978C3A1347; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:07:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0F064C; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 21:07:51 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=steffann.nl; h= x-mailer:references:in-reply-to:date:date:subject:subject :mime-version:content-type:content-type:message-id:from:from :received:received; s=mail; t=1582747669; bh=bV3K4wK2n5OHxDbvCE7 9+nbwaZf0BlfsY9KiNhw1cEE=; b=TG2c6tIBlwxvbwag8Or7oTmc/hNHW/dFXuw /KFDwmwU4dh/CGsPArDP8SW4FXaUJhealhO/Ut5obo2+MiANf2s9JsKXbD9/AGju dtrLdsyett9sCO928QtqE9EWHr/bkwLbTdB1W1s8XK1JIGa32I4sTxTMdzTk9/PT 8FwBHKdE= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.sintact.nl Received: from mail.sintact.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.sintact.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id LK0z4EMoYzJn; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 21:07:49 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:e1db:2079:7e02:1779] (unknown [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:e1db:2079:7e02:1779]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 471EF3C; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 21:07:49 +0100 (CET) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann Message-Id: <6DE2228F-16DD-4608-9A6A-021DCE2C0BC0@steffann.nl> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9C3D0564-3375-42F0-AE0C-8AEF7914963B"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3594.4.19\)) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 21:07:44 +0100 In-Reply-To: Cc: Sander Steffann , "spring@ietf.org" , 6man WG To: Robert Raszuk References: <7B51F0BE-CE40-42B8-9D87-0B764B6E00C5@steffann.nl> <47B4D89B-D752-4F4C-8226-41FCB0A610F0@retevia.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3594.4.19) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 20:07:59 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9C3D0564-3375-42F0-AE0C-8AEF7914963B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Robert, > No worries ... three IPv6 musketeers have already presented themselves = well to this discussion. This was just one more demo of it. No need to = apologize - at least me :) >=20 > And while you can call someone's opinion the way you like - the fact = that SRv6 builds on top of IPv6 does not make it automatically IPv6 = extension. Yes it does. It uses the IPv6 header with IPv6 extension headers with = IPv6 addresses. SRv6 packets are IPv6 packets, and therefore have to = follow IPv6 semantics. If you want to create an exception to that, then = RFC8200 is the place to be. > My perhaps subtle point was that while politically it has been sold = like minor IPv6 extension from technical point it does not need to be = positioned like one. The sole fact that it reuses the same ethertype = does not make it an extension. Oh yes, it also uses the IPv6 ethertype. I almost forgot that one. SRv6 = is still based on an IPv6 *Extension* Header. > Now as I have already been through my round of circular explanations = in the previous months - now I just sit and watch how it goes round and = round again. Happy to hear you're giving up on pushing a draft that violates RFC8200 = by claiming that SRv6 doesn't have to follow the RFC that it is based on = because SRv6/NP is special, SRv6/NP is not really IPv6, IPv6 addresses = as used by SRv6/NP aren't really IPv6 addresses etc. Instead of trying to squeeze your way through with all these excuses, = why not simply acknowledge the comments that PSP violates RFC8200, and = either work on updating RFC8200 or removing PSP (whose benefits have = been questioned on their own)? Work with this community and the = operators to gain actual consensus, not some parody of consensus by = trying to bend the rules when you don't like them. You could easily get my consent by removing PSP from the draft. It = violates RFC8200 and for what? What makes PSP so important that the = draft would be unworkable without it? Why do you rather play these games = than adjust the draft based on honest feedback? What hidden agendas are = there? Because based on everything I have seen PSP is a minor feature = that is implemented in a very controversial way. Why is it worth all = this nonsense? (and I mean nonsense in the literal way: it really = doesn't make sense to me) Cheers, Sander --Apple-Mail=_9C3D0564-3375-42F0-AE0C-8AEF7914963B Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEl13OIanoifT0p8LWWPjdc9pon8sFAl5W0BAACgkQWPjdc9po n8u7YQ/+LqcJCQ0XfAV1W3bT1Rg+wmVwL5w9rzFgKVZ3W7PRQwHDVUY0tXFZiAXx k9f5nYH5tETMF30S8fzRn3iM9ySAfT4s3pQrlSPNu1SxVDZuLRvAYBHTS7pDtbyt fYvQ7kJ1kUu4YCtcez3oO33g1jzZBUm2Z7dpKIPO0AcsiUOq2HCKuhO3xsS1bufd r+WoTFc1YeeGcZ2k9TgmLuU2mHa6trqKGwmWfYqahZT8synmhv2quuowm8DeWuuW 1pIlvI3ZGHCaGunkVj41uVWThLH8X0u2ogkL9Zd9Bp5CgFox6VdO1VMiEtcGLZsu R7lld6GlpNmdKOhGDt5YFYn13T3nwfTANJ4nQ2myomZq078MiFU61zUXV5QH9LWo VnqFt9uwlE6+nWeHQCCKneSFe1rb0uwOjVYHPy+hChOd/ZTDdvOSfS/M0Haukz4U 2nKurYcs0mKHq2VK756thBmAXaMlLq9CArLPa1kYJhkEmQzYPaQb6Hgllp86DhLH XL4prSYXm/36XuJi8AzvVPlRcQQen1sSrXh9i2MXwLP2mjVqENlJZmUYzLXa4pNl NP1fVuyyPV2P0xP5lGoC2xfP0BiToY/GxF3UWF+U4Hk8kL1Vn7ijB35kOc8q/H7J 3dhp4lThTzGRBSFc6U15FFaK2Myh9ux8q6omvWEBrt6hMyyX7dQ= =5oem -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_9C3D0564-3375-42F0-AE0C-8AEF7914963B-- From nobody Wed Feb 26 12:09:46 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C11B03A131D; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:09:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WqwkPTTd8kfn; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:09:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from atl4mhob10.registeredsite.com (atl4mhob10.registeredsite.com [209.17.115.48]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 403F53A1332; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:09:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from atl4oxapp107 ([10.30.71.144]) by atl4mhob10.registeredsite.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 01QK9cQh009013 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA256 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 26 Feb 2020 15:09:38 -0500 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 15:09:38 -0500 (EST) From: "john leddy.net" Reply-To: "john leddy.net" To: Warren Kumari Cc: Bob Hinden , SPRING WG List , 6man@ietf.org, "Zafar Ali (zali)" Message-ID: <907734565.529015.1582747778596@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <5D218BFB-0D6F-4F7D-858F-B571A67DC47F@leddy.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.0-Rev28 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 20:09:45 -0000 The understanding at IETF98 with rfc2460 moving to rfc8200 was that any tig= htening in header processing language was to get to an adopted standard and= NOT to be used as club to bludgeon innovation by a small group of loud hum= mers.=20 > On February 26, 2020 at 2:15 PM Warren Kumari wrote: >=20 >=20 > I would suggest that people read RFC 7282 - "On Consensus and Humming > in the IETF", especially Sections 3 & 6 (it is a short document, you > should read the whole thing, but pay special attention to these > sections). >=20 > It doesn't really matter how many people say +1 for moving it forwards > -- if there are valid technical objections these have to be dealt with > - and I think that the relationship with RFC8200 falling into this > category... >=20 > W >=20 > On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 2:01 PM John Leddy wrote: > > > > +1 in support of moving the document forward. > > > > John Leddy > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On Feb 26, 2020, at 10:22 AM, Bob Hinden wrote= : > > > > > > =EF=BB=BFZafar, > > > > > >> On Feb 26, 2020, at 9:43 AM, Zafar Ali (zali) wrote: > > >> > > >> +1, > > >> > > >> Just to add, in the spirit of IETF https://www.ietf.org/how/runningc= ode/ =E2=80=A6 > > >> implementation, commercial deployment and Inter-op status has been d= ocumented in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-= deployment-status/ > > > > > > I think the proper question is there a consensus to advance this docu= ment. > > > > > > There seems to be questions about its relationship with RFC8200. I a= m not seeing this as being resolved. > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > > ipv6@ietf.org > > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > ipv6@ietf.org > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad > idea in the first place. > This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing > regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair > of pants. > ---maf From nobody Wed Feb 26 12:10:40 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F26973A1332; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:10:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MRlCFiltpfxx; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:10:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9255D3A131D; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:10:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (unknown [181.45.84.85]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9116382D96; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 21:10:34 +0100 (CET) To: Robert Raszuk , Sander Steffann Cc: "spring@ietf.org" , 6man WG References: <7B51F0BE-CE40-42B8-9D87-0B764B6E00C5@steffann.nl> <47B4D89B-D752-4F4C-8226-41FCB0A610F0@retevia.net> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 17:09:47 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 20:10:39 -0000 On 26/2/20 16:44, Robert Raszuk wrote: > Hey Sander, > > No worries ... three IPv6 musketeers have already presented themselves > well to this discussion. This was just one more demo of it. No need to > apologize - at least me :) > > And while you can call someone's opinion the way you like - the fact > that SRv6 builds on top of IPv6 does not make it automatically IPv6 > extension. > > My perhaps subtle point was that while politically it has been sold like > minor IPv6 extension from technical point it does not need to be > positioned like one. The sole fact that it reuses the same ethertype > does not make it an extension. Yeah, it's not an extension: it's a major surgery to IPv6, and a major change to the IPv6 architecture (nobody would even call it "IPv6 maintenance"). A number of us wonder how many milliseconds it would have taken for this proposal to be shot down if it wasn't being pushed by a big vendor. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Wed Feb 26 12:22:07 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05E433A138B; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:22:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H8znptTzvE6T; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:22:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from atl4mhob22.registeredsite.com (atl4mhob22.registeredsite.com [209.17.115.116]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 51A663A1386; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:22:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from atl4oxapp107 ([10.30.71.144]) by atl4mhob22.registeredsite.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 01QKM2bX025529 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA256 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 26 Feb 2020 15:22:02 -0500 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 15:22:02 -0500 (EST) From: "john leddy.net" Reply-To: "john leddy.net" To: Fernando Gont , Robert Raszuk , Sander Steffann Cc: spring@ietf.org, 6man WG Message-ID: <626312047.530170.1582748522771@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <7B51F0BE-CE40-42B8-9D87-0B764B6E00C5@steffann.nl> <47B4D89B-D752-4F4C-8226-41FCB0A610F0@retevia.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.0-Rev28 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 20:22:06 -0000 I would suggest that people read RFC 7282 - "On Consensus and Humming in the IETF"... My question is: How do you reach Consensus when the complaint is about how many milliseconds it takes to shoot down a proposal? Is this about the proposal or the vendor involved? > > A number of us wonder how many milliseconds it would have taken for this > proposal to be shot down if it wasn't being pushed by a big vendor. > > Thanks, > -- > Fernando Gont > SI6 Networks > e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com > PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Wed Feb 26 12:25:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75FBC3A1396; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:25:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=steffann.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IICyxndEBoPp; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:25:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sintact.nl (mail.sintact.nl [83.247.10.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 530433A1393; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:25:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BDF54B; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 21:24:35 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=steffann.nl; h= x-mailer:references:message-id:date:date:in-reply-to:from:from :subject:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-type:received :received; s=mail; t=1582748673; bh=lkTCBBssA+K+R6SF1cTDg/oCUEGB KdiTSovZylzuVdw=; b=D2FVsA+P+b1o8GHKaibZg3bBcpI8z4YPWLfHMr99/wGw JsxRJM7hGC9zCQvRcJeYq6LAmuVIRWKUhj/PkcsQygWWlBQJoe4YrvaD5bo9lne8 nmuRMhEMyBnGk8hdEhXUg5pgoeeOLNIv4rGRWxqeQUn5GXbif/VE+xqU0eTkZgc= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.sintact.nl Received: from mail.sintact.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.sintact.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id gmIy-y6_W59J; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 21:24:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:e1db:2079:7e02:1779] (unknown [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:e1db:2079:7e02:1779]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9DBB23C; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 21:24:32 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7DA64945-FC9D-4113-9CD8-712B6686189E"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3594.4.19\)) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <626312047.530170.1582748522771@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 21:24:31 +0100 Cc: Fernando Gont , Robert Raszuk , Sander Steffann , spring@ietf.org, 6man WG Message-Id: <2C1C557C-5698-4A11-8F29-7BECC99C8EDD@steffann.nl> References: <7B51F0BE-CE40-42B8-9D87-0B764B6E00C5@steffann.nl> <47B4D89B-D752-4F4C-8226-41FCB0A610F0@retevia.net> <626312047.530170.1582748522771@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> To: "john leddy.net" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3594.4.19) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 20:25:13 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7DA64945-FC9D-4113-9CD8-712B6686189E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi John, > I would suggest that people read RFC 7282 - "On Consensus and Humming = in the IETF"... >=20 > My question is: How do you reach Consensus when the complaint is about = how many milliseconds it takes to shoot down a proposal? >=20 > Is this about the proposal or the vendor involved? Definitely the proposal. That a vendor seems to have an inappropriate = amount of influence on the IETF process is just an additional concern. Cheers, Sander --Apple-Mail=_7DA64945-FC9D-4113-9CD8-712B6686189E Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEl13OIanoifT0p8LWWPjdc9pon8sFAl5W0/8ACgkQWPjdc9po n8tgdw/8CBwAvYesK7I/pX05nYfcccsvxJ4ikYBLc7z19XJ9QV7GAeFeINZiAW8o 6GKnemryI2T6IWeBhAjmPMEaWt2/wpJqpBHKXLNIZvr4VzH2dnRWAVA8IzmoAkxC s8Mkt+slRjHuLaDd6E2n1A8AZau9VTDla3BG6LD4CsxaN96ft6jEYWGyDxofeKml T3W6iEXtTmdz0CenI3zbQ1YxEMEsGO9SLH5SCBsweOePJ0NxBLhKrTHW4VSwK3Eb OzoCbX/6mq0O4apijkOEImGn6CYsqcPOlxJBR+VgAD1DuNkeyRn5PxsNp1Iu61YL LilTFxFKIqzmzlA/9HTyHOiUFYFWlJ+Dp8WqtfXcUTND6C1uHfBH5K4gLLHddAdW u4/IBRpB/qVVwr8rYP2Uwd6S3TBR/7IzGlOuI6NT3TmCDo7cF4Z9U7Hj6cEoMj5Y F6F1YnqiVfeBDDE2wRgO03YbpVPnxSrSp6LQxmdewg5kghSzmVcD7a97xWgeEmXn brWqFIhC8QgY9iZkdL2o/gBKZLh8BTATSf2v5KHgV6gIegn4qqywP1voVgU2mXeX V6PLARmQMm6gNfkIwn30t9DQi5fNLrpOsY/ALNX18H7exKvL+omxTELfzLIsWonS bRwUvbY1sOEH0z10yIgbdazqqsC6H7vqiBssKc3vwTOiFnojsyY= =Z5GZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_7DA64945-FC9D-4113-9CD8-712B6686189E-- From nobody Wed Feb 26 12:26:27 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B478C3A13A6; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:26:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5dHTIk6_-6qM; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:26:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 471543A13DA; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:26:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (unknown [181.45.84.85]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8BFA2807A3; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 21:26:11 +0100 (CET) To: "john leddy.net" , Warren Kumari Cc: SPRING WG List , 6man@ietf.org, Bob Hinden , "Zafar Ali (zali)" References: <5D218BFB-0D6F-4F7D-858F-B571A67DC47F@leddy.net> <907734565.529015.1582747778596@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <7b23ba9e-54d9-d8ff-51b4-3cd5e6c8c0a1@si6networks.com> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 17:25:44 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <907734565.529015.1582747778596@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 20:26:25 -0000 On 26/2/20 17:09, john leddy.net wrote: > The understanding at IETF98 with rfc2460 moving to rfc8200 was that any tightening in header processing language was to get to an adopted standard and NOT to be used as club to bludgeon innovation by a small group of loud hummers. 1) My understanding is that decisions are taken on the mailing-list. 2) There is a reason for the different maturity levels, and a reason why, given a standard, you have to do a formal update if you want to change it. And the onus to get consensus is on the folks proposing the changes, as opposed to the folks asking for existing specs to be respected. Rather than wasting our time trying to explain why or how existing specs don't apply to you, as well as lecturing folks that spend their time helping RFC8200 and previous efforts, you should have probably tried to make a case for updating RFC8200. Nobody is stopping you from coming up with a proposal. We're simply kindly asking that you stop trying to violate existing specs, and circumvent IETF process. This whole thing (including previous similar issues while working on rfc2460bis), is the perfect example of how individual participation (i.e., outside of a small group of big vendors) are highly discouraged from participating at the IETF. It is a shame we have had to insist on this so much. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Wed Feb 26 12:28:11 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E1693A13C7; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:27:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=steffann.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id knV5-lCBENUD; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:27:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sintact.nl (mail.sintact.nl [83.247.10.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C91383A13D0; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:27:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A9543C; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 21:27:55 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=steffann.nl; h= x-mailer:references:message-id:date:date:in-reply-to:from:from :subject:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-type:received :received; s=mail; t=1582748873; bh=Hqh3JyVAYF3CGZ1q0JugIeusVQYd EH8lwC3YTFA+OGU=; b=V1FSwKHcflvkixDJd2LrSgnCmRWCEesEURxEupfCH63Q Ti1r2xGxxhXQ/5Vp/4WBbUu22xeXCTUYnMJ138+YrhINN6K+/Nam3LOKmNckoseQ tljaR9qvkerSYzy7OAh+B4n8xFjeFn88A2zNfGGkUK3lEBC0tIGmonmBrG9hkUE= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.sintact.nl Received: from mail.sintact.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.sintact.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id 1PLy-I2a0I0t; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 21:27:53 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:e1db:2079:7e02:1779] (unknown [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:e1db:2079:7e02:1779]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 647954B; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 21:27:53 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F92AE79C-E5CA-45C0-AC7B-5CA7A6904E21"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3594.4.19\)) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <2C1C557C-5698-4A11-8F29-7BECC99C8EDD@steffann.nl> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 21:27:52 +0100 Cc: Fernando Gont , Robert Raszuk , Sander Steffann , spring@ietf.org, 6man WG Message-Id: <388753D4-34B0-4DF6-9C77-1F866F2F190B@steffann.nl> References: <7B51F0BE-CE40-42B8-9D87-0B764B6E00C5@steffann.nl> <47B4D89B-D752-4F4C-8226-41FCB0A610F0@retevia.net> <626312047.530170.1582748522771@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> <2C1C557C-5698-4A11-8F29-7BECC99C8EDD@steffann.nl> To: "john leddy.net" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3594.4.19) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 20:28:05 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F92AE79C-E5CA-45C0-AC7B-5CA7A6904E21 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Definitely the proposal. That a vendor seems to have an inappropriate = amount of influence on the IETF process is just an additional concern. PS: that the vendor is Cisco in this instance is not relevant. Any = vendor doing this would be equally bad. Any major vendor has played = inappropriate games using the IETF. This is just what is currently on = the table. --Apple-Mail=_F92AE79C-E5CA-45C0-AC7B-5CA7A6904E21 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEl13OIanoifT0p8LWWPjdc9pon8sFAl5W1MgACgkQWPjdc9po n8sDLA//X2LsGHaMULRhNELNAiVkZRkaVW0i+jCJoQHjf/wivLFDP+kvMk9YJ0LK W266N7xtLwzVs5Vto6t3aci6gLSlWvA+evFq1tiyCLO61pQdbVTZ29/0xzm2TpXk hmHkuAp1eMwVGFl8yvLID5OZ4fonf6KZ/++hsmbu0OH20Hw+olOBp/in2132xbIx G0v48ebS1uTwHTeWks7D72obiYyCwu9DvVGsiSC1sqoYCygXg7lJh+0Zn9O2RJvQ xn+xzfuWql1Aj6OOAQs9jwvco74qPz1iPPZyPPELtQEiyT3FslAThPjrdv7AEOly 33LdOrjWSQokMKUObW6Yv18wGRhDjyLGlPalcQciKRJN6sg4QKHXwTdPDWWK4NwD 4sp/fco4xRc8OKJUg7IkBVprW5Ghg6aS/xzj/wWio8EPoEG2Xcc1aZOZlqd+ik/3 NHk8tynsjC+Efq71I2ePK1RMoVMvL6rJYm8Cdp7ueesDvyCPGvZglfQI4gbpTXiM G8y5XLFsTIgi93IcwgAB5QEpqkTXmvCU7jfUicASVnTPnHVPfYgfeEGUobGMtdfv N/WRPUURuThjQIpC4+FZsm35/yIkclNLH8RaeAPznewVAhFZrfO1C+VOUL6bOslR znpcYoIogZeldVuf7tPUaL176VqwwZDDKTA0n7QZR++JG/DOpBk= =CusR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_F92AE79C-E5CA-45C0-AC7B-5CA7A6904E21-- From nobody Wed Feb 26 12:41:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BF343A13FD; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:41:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ggTOt82m-T5e; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:41:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C85653A13FB; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:41:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (unknown [181.45.84.85]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B8FCC803F0; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 21:40:56 +0100 (CET) To: "john leddy.net" , Robert Raszuk , Sander Steffann Cc: spring@ietf.org, 6man WG References: <7B51F0BE-CE40-42B8-9D87-0B764B6E00C5@steffann.nl> <47B4D89B-D752-4F4C-8226-41FCB0A610F0@retevia.net> <626312047.530170.1582748522771@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <247af621-864b-a726-cc71-baff76ba2c64@si6networks.com> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 17:40:27 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <626312047.530170.1582748522771@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 20:41:06 -0000 On 26/2/20 17:22, john leddy.net wrote: > I would suggest that people read RFC 7282 - "On Consensus and Humming in the IETF"... > > My question is: How do you reach Consensus when the complaint is about how many milliseconds it takes to shoot down a proposal? This document proposes a *major* change to IPv6. This group has been way overly conservative even for very minor modifications to the IPv6 specs, well within 6man charter. Given that, I would have expected that a long time ago, a long queue of folks (including the relevant AD) had made it crystal clear that this is an update to RFC8200, and given the depth of the change, outside of the charter of 6man. It is in a way unbelievable the amount of energy we spend on polishing maintenance updates to IPv6, but then fail to even recognize that what's being proposes by this document is a major update to IPv6, out of the scope of 6man (which stands for "IPv6 maintenance", and not for "IPv6 major surgery"). The amount of nonsense we have had to deal with, including this proposal not violating RFC8200, this proposal being something else other than IPv6, etc., has also been pointed out by others. > Is this about the proposal or the vendor involved? It is about the proposal, indeed. I have sent dozens of emails expressing technical concerns for this proposal. And the only reference to "vendors" has been about the conjecture regarding why it has been acceptable for us being fooled around. Full disclosure: You didn't ask, but I don't mind being very open about it: I don't work for any router vendor, or OS vendor, nor do I have any kind of ongoing, past, or future contract with any of them, or any other party involved in a competing technology. I have technical concerns about the proposal (expressed ad nauseam), and also concerns about how this process has been going on. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Wed Feb 26 12:57:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B51703A144E; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:57:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UfgOJe4lauM3; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:57:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf1-x442.google.com (mail-pf1-x442.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::442]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A8963A144C; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:57:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf1-x442.google.com with SMTP id p14so390426pfn.4; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:57:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=MH2oeWi7cT3abETvN9nfoXd76g5FN1IQZxhypvG6VUY=; b=MG7FdWkcd5NouuBszexFQZn1LoeCqC2n6X3w6IKpHnRS11H0Z3DYo/HIcH1SBKwxip l0DwnUp1Nx55FeSsOuK9gX6a5cMDfWmkCRNQxWC58boA3AQJBlZDiptXrT7Wu/H5CTOW MY9m7p+RFzvR33jqz6y+uUYyeAVRKfiiwlxLcrooK7fNqqa+4JzQpj7gSDfLkLEkOACU ZdZvQgIg4eJw9kJP3Z4p/MJgYTyduAtT0z/yHPGD26GeREf32binEx7li/R/GH7PRorQ xlmoaH0k/Yyfv38npqEpjZWyKJ1GvDr/5WaIVV7HwZRbfNd/25HEs3vSpZDAJxjGWL+e DpkA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=MH2oeWi7cT3abETvN9nfoXd76g5FN1IQZxhypvG6VUY=; b=fxqzL/DdaxsG+YU2uEmNq+Bt+QIfviLhEp92jLHpBKLj58ayx75dNFQ/Eig0/s0CEf 5iNM+ygxMglDA8IdccmiVQVI0qM7AoCstOLvAk1av20O1fqBG7ru8NIAIrxjSG5vl+2O g75PoNOnROwrxsLxcbzDh5aC10dS58Xhrv2oaOrpFP+OmtN6JcU413oBlj5MUZDUvoST BnN+y0WrjKqArTB6kClHLoBFBhxs1h0+CH94gmYPU8NzgQYzrOKHbgK1i6amdaPxkUQh rieC2zDfbCfnHPJKNheXemHkMjzQSE5BvkQK6KRXOmNSyZS1KnWr4p/0oZvvfCMCs3P+ hB/Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUKgRpdJIp5zwq5g7vWDhnPp+jpxEz11dE+W/lvywYgPoWp4fI9 UjgKMbNRnIHvf75qgQLYvA++exBb X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwfXGZJqDDT7MFO06KLZQTqUTCQlf6ggHTvaY2D16OurdAoYcdM+9y7MCwbGiaDUmjqMdECSQ== X-Received: by 2002:a63:441e:: with SMTP id r30mr653985pga.51.1582750633712; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:57:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] ([165.84.25.143]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s124sm4479268pfc.57.2020.02.26.12.57.10 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:57:13 -0800 (PST) To: Lizhenbin , "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , 'SPRING WG List' Cc: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming References: <5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D9364A1C2@DGGEMM532-MBX.china.huawei.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 09:57:09 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D9364A1C2@DGGEMM532-MBX.china.huawei.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 20:57:16 -0000 > In the process all the comments have been resolved Unfortunately, this is not true. For example, the word "pop" is used but still not defined. In computer science, it generally refers to popping a stack. I understand that in the MPLS context (a label stack) but not in the IPv6 context, where there is no stack in the header. The text explaining penultimate segment pop, quite apart from using "pop" in this undefined way, still does not explain how it is compatible with the RFC8200 interdiction of inserting or removing headers en route. It explicitly describes removing a header before the final routing hop, which is explicitly against RFC8200. As far as I'm concerned, these comments have been brushed aside. The fact that there's running code is good, but it doesn't resolve anything in the text. Regards Brian Carpenter From nobody Wed Feb 26 13:00:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 582443A145B; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 13:00:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.999, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CM1BlJBoJCwA; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 13:00:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x235.google.com (mail-oi1-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D392E3A1451; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 13:00:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x235.google.com with SMTP id c16so1007824oic.3; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 13:00:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=OL32bdUB7eVX0+GPBy4hrwbqnIeymo1TQmft19XATU8=; b=svNC9sZ6XXSve47Da1TWmAl8gLGhgTKnioPM14ozIdsAyw76P/sZ7hNlhG8RMZPV7h jUXJiVZqYX3eHHz8Spsxvit6jxxLM9unG249HzN16nj6vEOuJkpw9zL/jSkixC5kY+F/ JlgxZHrOP6ozp7Vy/+FfXsqyDsNrIVqWVbr0xgFrUEyQ+cm6r7t8mRAaqf5ey23+AQ17 QtUWpljrblfy1qE4ElVkt9VgpxCl51iMnEF4VHVdOIXNbdnx8mEcEd9NxhPBEY3e9CpD r6NqwqCaassu6JkLWYvSWBy9v9N4vVMsZ20ilURibYWpRIipFZCOFNI2zflStqeF77ql eA/Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=OL32bdUB7eVX0+GPBy4hrwbqnIeymo1TQmft19XATU8=; b=EPNnHyzO1oByG3S5I6VDDnHtU4jXsD11tNaZLIUjU/bPatux3TQocVdp86OJYaoX5U 6Ve+I6rv0+57UBQvESx7VlA3D3g+8ksOQhJRb35WCW1cCTlR498qPgn2SsUDTSFVpZtQ tg1UKhuuFKNM6K23iXSWFZ55tlQkZ1HDijFDfLp2WdRh9RI/w8WU/s266H8LR/Vn+rqu gXQQcTwkZiMYHkZPV9EQhMacHLC+2X4/dwlvsvCt3WwwlfCmz0/tWNA3UVcHYJxoFL3O uu9Iodj/sBiAOQIhXvpK+zQqgK67sZ8AbttrBKE+9hLq735kD1VS1cM9mxzOUuJhTcHq /1AQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWaDkNHO0VYZP+nBn87Dzv+OdoeJ5+4X8OScs3XuWwbbsya8Fja EnKRobJ1W+WL4GDxxVR1l6k+v8cvvWAgxOyhYD+K3ik5 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz/RyJ+X+EoIzkd669ks2xlMe+nX9LD3hviJ+NXaP15VVw0ctH6MyKTA05rvFhlxozrq0hZovhrw2/NmngsU10= X-Received: by 2002:aca:5746:: with SMTP id l67mr762019oib.60.1582750828090; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 13:00:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5D218BFB-0D6F-4F7D-858F-B571A67DC47F@leddy.net> <907734565.529015.1582747778596@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> In-Reply-To: <907734565.529015.1582747778596@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> From: Mark Smith Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:00:01 +1100 Message-ID: To: "john leddy.net" Cc: Warren Kumari , SPRING WG List , 6MAN <6man@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden , "Zafar Ali (zali)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 21:00:31 -0000 On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 at 07:09, john leddy.net wrote: > > The understanding at IETF98 with rfc2460 moving to rfc8200 was that any t= ightening in header processing language was to get to an adopted standard a= nd NOT to be used as club to bludgeon innovation by a small group of loud h= ummers. > If you think I'm against innovation with IPv6, then you haven't seen my IPv6 formal and functional anycast address proposal - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-smith-6man-form-func-anycast-addresses-01= . draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10 doesn't say "Updates RFC8200", nor does it provide any technical justification for PSP, including comparison with the existing alternative. As RFC 8200 is also one of only 92 full Internet Standards, and of course has met the required criteria to be promoted to full Internet Standard, fundamental changes to it have to be very significantly justified and considered. The SPRING WG are also supposed to be actively trying to avoid such changes. From the charter: "SPRING WG should avoid modification to existing data planes that would make them incompatible with existing deployments. Where possible, existing control and management plane protocols must be used within existing architectures to implement the SPRING function." (+1 to everybody reading RFC 7282) Regards, Mark "Loud Hammer" Smith. "What you allow, you encourage." - Michael Josephson. > > > On February 26, 2020 at 2:15 PM Warren Kumari wrote= : > > > > > > I would suggest that people read RFC 7282 - "On Consensus and Humming > > in the IETF", especially Sections 3 & 6 (it is a short document, you > > should read the whole thing, but pay special attention to these > > sections). > > > > It doesn't really matter how many people say +1 for moving it forwards > > -- if there are valid technical objections these have to be dealt with > > - and I think that the relationship with RFC8200 falling into this > > category... > > > > W > > > > On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 2:01 PM John Leddy wrote: > > > > > > +1 in support of moving the document forward. > > > > > > John Leddy > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > On Feb 26, 2020, at 10:22 AM, Bob Hinden wro= te: > > > > > > > > =EF=BB=BFZafar, > > > > > > > >> On Feb 26, 2020, at 9:43 AM, Zafar Ali (zali) wrote: > > > >> > > > >> +1, > > > >> > > > >> Just to add, in the spirit of IETF https://www.ietf.org/how/runnin= gcode/ =E2=80=A6 > > > >> implementation, commercial deployment and Inter-op status has been= documented in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-matsushima-spring-srv= 6-deployment-status/ > > > > > > > > I think the proper question is there a consensus to advance this do= cument. > > > > > > > > There seems to be questions about its relationship with RFC8200. I= am not seeing this as being resolved. > > > > > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------= - > > > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > > > ipv6@ietf.org > > > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------= - > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > > ipv6@ietf.org > > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > -- > > I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad > > idea in the first place. > > This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing > > regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair > > of pants. > > ---maf > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring From nobody Wed Feb 26 13:02:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C89E43A145F; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 13:02:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YeoPta3LkxSt; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 13:02:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from atl4mhob14.registeredsite.com (atl4mhob14.registeredsite.com [209.17.115.52]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2CC183A145D; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 13:02:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from atl4oxapp107 ([10.30.71.144]) by atl4mhob14.registeredsite.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 01QL2iTD015648 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA256 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 26 Feb 2020 16:02:44 -0500 Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 16:02:44 -0500 (EST) From: "john leddy.net" Reply-To: "john leddy.net" To: Fernando Gont , Robert Raszuk , Sander Steffann Cc: spring@ietf.org, 6man WG Message-ID: <1350080398.533463.1582750964295@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> In-Reply-To: <247af621-864b-a726-cc71-baff76ba2c64@si6networks.com> References: <7B51F0BE-CE40-42B8-9D87-0B764B6E00C5@steffann.nl> <47B4D89B-D752-4F4C-8226-41FCB0A610F0@retevia.net> <626312047.530170.1582748522771@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> <247af621-864b-a726-cc71-baff76ba2c64@si6networks.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Medium X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.0-Rev28 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 21:02:49 -0000 So you are saying that other than the PSP issue, you support moving the document forward? > On February 26, 2020 at 3:40 PM Fernando Gont wrote: > > > On 26/2/20 17:22, john leddy.net wrote: > > I would suggest that people read RFC 7282 - "On Consensus and Humming in the IETF"... > > > > My question is: How do you reach Consensus when the complaint is about how many milliseconds it takes to shoot down a proposal? > > This document proposes a *major* change to IPv6. This group has been way > overly conservative even for very minor modifications to the IPv6 specs, > well within 6man charter. > > Given that, I would have expected that a long time ago, a long queue of > folks (including the relevant AD) had made it crystal clear that this is > an update to RFC8200, and given the depth of the change, outside of the > charter of 6man. > > It is in a way unbelievable the amount of energy we spend on polishing > maintenance updates to IPv6, but then fail to even recognize that what's > being proposes by this document is a major update to IPv6, out of the > scope of 6man (which stands for "IPv6 maintenance", and not for "IPv6 > major surgery"). > > The amount of nonsense we have had to deal with, including this proposal > not violating RFC8200, this proposal being something else other than > IPv6, etc., has also been pointed out by others. > > > > Is this about the proposal or the vendor involved? > > It is about the proposal, indeed. I have sent dozens of emails > expressing technical concerns for this proposal. And the only reference > to "vendors" has been about the conjecture regarding why it has been > acceptable for us being fooled around. > > Full disclosure: You didn't ask, but I don't mind being very open about > it: I don't work for any router vendor, or OS vendor, nor do I have any > kind of ongoing, past, or future contract with any of them, or any other > party involved in a competing technology. > > I have technical concerns about the proposal (expressed ad nauseam), and > also concerns about how this process has been going on. > > Thanks, > -- > Fernando Gont > SI6 Networks > e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com > PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 > > > > From nobody Wed Feb 26 13:19:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4681F3A046E; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 13:18:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cVa2qMCH72fE; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 13:18:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4C9B3A046D; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 13:18:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (unknown [181.45.84.85]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9EADF83190; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 22:18:53 +0100 (CET) To: "john leddy.net" , Robert Raszuk , Sander Steffann Cc: spring@ietf.org, 6man WG References: <7B51F0BE-CE40-42B8-9D87-0B764B6E00C5@steffann.nl> <47B4D89B-D752-4F4C-8226-41FCB0A610F0@retevia.net> <626312047.530170.1582748522771@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> <247af621-864b-a726-cc71-baff76ba2c64@si6networks.com> <1350080398.533463.1582750964295@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <68111ad2-d19b-9225-dad7-c4a4d26b1e40@si6networks.com> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 18:18:45 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1350080398.533463.1582750964295@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 21:18:58 -0000 On 26/2/20 18:02, john leddy.net wrote: > So you are saying that other than the PSP issue, you support moving the document forward? A number of us had repeatedly expressed their concerns with the document. Please check the mailing-list archives. I haven't argued in favor or against the document. I simply asked the existing specifications be complied with. It's a waste of time to be rehashing the same discussions all the time. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Wed Feb 26 13:21:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4F5A3A0474; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 13:20:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=steffann.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C1wmU3P7F-9G; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 13:20:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sintact.nl (mail.sintact.nl [83.247.10.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6FD623A046E; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 13:20:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 126574B; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 22:20:51 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=steffann.nl; h= x-mailer:references:in-reply-to:date:date:subject:subject :mime-version:content-type:content-type:message-id:from:from :received:received; s=mail; t=1582752049; bh=k9E7cqcYDz2xjl/eSSH bf5Nb+4OyMtTAARDo0y9amSc=; b=WWz61d+iACdpPmH0XfLwnimjVzCkx+I9RCR 6yVEF0kE5yEDYmgVNW83eZv+fP/8p2pqVFI2ZwzOalnGGciRNLPWEs71m0bDokPI fDV912xvlYSRq5FEBPff18ewOW6IZBLP+yis9Lhg16u0/LXI6MqaZ5HSGCu2Qdaj 8KyRlqIU= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.sintact.nl Received: from mail.sintact.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.sintact.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id zbSM9hNUbp5D; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 22:20:49 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:14c4:c307:a46b:5e84] (unknown [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:14c4:c307:a46b:5e84]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DA4A13C; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 22:20:48 +0100 (CET) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann Message-Id: <21148BBD-D7CD-4A8A-9A17-0EE2AD812639@steffann.nl> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C10D708D-C3C6-4242-9E26-1CEB09BB9511"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3594.4.19\)) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 22:20:41 +0100 In-Reply-To: <1350080398.533463.1582750964295@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> Cc: Fernando Gont , Robert Raszuk , spring@ietf.org, 6man WG To: "john leddy.net" References: <1350080398.533463.1582750964295@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3594.4.19) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 21:20:55 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C10D708D-C3C6-4242-9E26-1CEB09BB9511 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi John, > =EF=BB=BFSo you are saying that other than the PSP issue, you support = moving the document forward? Yes. As long as it doesn't violate existing RFCs and with that = potentially causes trouble for implementations that expect those RFCs to = be followed I'm fine with it. It's not something I would deploy, but I'm = not going to stand in the way of those who want it if it's not going to = hurt others. Cheers, Sander --Apple-Mail=_C10D708D-C3C6-4242-9E26-1CEB09BB9511 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEl13OIanoifT0p8LWWPjdc9pon8sFAl5W4SoACgkQWPjdc9po n8sN+Q/+KZV3myq3B7q/gc1X3wBminGpWsdmA9SiEvxsdvgUM/+coko7O/Xjjzwd QKzHCVCJjcS7dZrkDNITCjda4FO5w4MaVA5eZ3/P4D/w8CaSnQKpJo9dpJoRuk3u 2uE68mpXU9AahP4XL0mm0a1BKnCsShxarRPxC97gqAQFtEmJm5kkcSLqxtEJFDuu f6Ba/zVDDc7gLddjvvASwQZPlsm5ux4e0AD9zmcl5Lxg6Od4gtrT4w121yXkcdZh B6Y7UBHiSDyQtOyIvM5zqmYNuvm7LwPrHIVqwvwppww7R8lmTJ/aQOLgvm5Iiyhb 18033uSw/TpNb8A2i8SyQnTpeRbDqhBjjFNx50D/sIsEImH1yfvSzUin1DPa2FZd hOOWHQn1UeVFa4DESltBE9AS8g4qYm9CukTrdw6qBQj0IapjJ0a+W/cIsg7X7Fh4 AzfVPag/8FsgFBrYcr5itcu3KMujVJLMcyZZPrEVUpWuZZdTkFrxWCQnzbpbEHgc 57t/L0AUY1WO1Dq5YxSrROkUpPpHkrNK5C6Clth0+e90iq2fknW8Rm57CQj2noqV 2t4cjxjRNgdVBUp7t3p+a+W+FH+uek9Kl3R68vPaoA+du6p2OpT46l+2vN/cOqGE jzIcEFdIYlwr7reOp+K1aGBg1a6BpNE6SDUZusfjsEUCz/RXUFM= =ccFf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_C10D708D-C3C6-4242-9E26-1CEB09BB9511-- From nobody Wed Feb 26 13:26:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 969053A05A0; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 13:26:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ztJkNyp4myR3; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 13:26:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6795C3A058F; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 13:26:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (unknown [181.45.84.85]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5530D80367; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 22:26:23 +0100 (CET) To: Sander Steffann , "john leddy.net" Cc: Robert Raszuk , spring@ietf.org, 6man WG References: <1350080398.533463.1582750964295@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> <21148BBD-D7CD-4A8A-9A17-0EE2AD812639@steffann.nl> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <76cee7d6-a2f1-524c-cd4d-455bae5a34e5@si6networks.com> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 18:26:02 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <21148BBD-D7CD-4A8A-9A17-0EE2AD812639@steffann.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 21:26:28 -0000 On 26/2/20 18:20, Sander Steffann wrote: > Hi John, > >> So you are saying that other than the PSP issue, you support moving the document forward? > > Yes. As long as it doesn't violate existing RFCs and with that potentially causes trouble for implementations that expect those RFCs to be followed I'm fine with it. It's not something I would deploy, but I'm not going to stand in the way of those who want it if it's not going to hurt others. Indeed, that's the underlying principle: don't violate existing specs, and if you mean to, propose a formal update of RFC8200. (I don't remember of the top of my head if PSP was the only part of the document violating RFC8200, hence my general comment). -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Wed Feb 26 13:31:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FD243A07A3; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 13:31:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.999, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KpFxVSl19KaC; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 13:31:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-x536.google.com (mail-pg1-x536.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::536]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9DA313A07E2; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 13:31:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-x536.google.com with SMTP id y30so272598pga.13; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 13:31:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=frgH0+DDZJPmNXccDSHTm8NfSULJqnS7P2Bf4iNtq1k=; b=Mq8jJg4Gu4VcTZ8Ty2ZgwRqmOIIBxo2nHU3LSLYS5G7N3ptqXnjxooAEatiesk5e5t YTuNxqTflQszRfmIbiKDsn0YSZ+fg8IYJJF8SK+IfLI27rIRAxB7jswfCltpVboBbBss 2xeoZ7cn5W/BoG8oDvdyYskmuuA/9cMO29QnOWlvl2J8ZSpgDJ6UgpF40LxnX/5BoSPz NgRLdFBuLS2idL4ftohpc/a7B+6g+t9yzAFJmmnhBTDd48klHOcrqDzJKTSqhaqku7mJ SuqjGiVrQnUiXZ0+WWRqKXP2ACTn+ZyIgqKZUasSM3AXUvtKGNRhww5EyubQGV184vAP p0vg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=frgH0+DDZJPmNXccDSHTm8NfSULJqnS7P2Bf4iNtq1k=; b=atS8i7zOJZEK+wPX/BSKyB2pyF3Agb7r+el454/0Pq97vsKhubUpd+Uf8T90IrLOwd EvP4ICzXWqLinJ80hokgOCVoZ1NhXozohqYqghu0peVfAMFPu+pfmVEfPqTy1/SdOy8x zySoD1aQNH9KakZtEd7XjmtbV21QRp4g624mm0krAmV+1dOB6B30AzCVmWzQcTqtJuoK i+Rf/1HbU0dKFVr9hdV49Za++y0pzw/3ctMusTxU5An7P4W3rYLHKYmIvaUVHnp9Qt1F LK6N+9c288UB9SRfrvMktbWYeIrnjohB2E3VO+gHXydiXTqPhw3+aI+0nFVJBhx74An1 bujw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVN4jWp+HdcIUGnLSAbIE0E9DkaV4FOZ12EqUTimTx6Z9AbBl+3 s5W37XiZNg7bvuWmTaUDckAIdCwmJVN29IzB30g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw2sFRbRDj7R98ikT2Vrq6Ior0+89IRAzQy/EppRP3ghR4317BOtkz2Hyj/sn2R3aYwfA4n4hZ+2n5wKDj2tjs= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:9a52:: with SMTP id x18mr674760pfj.73.1582752669891; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 13:31:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7B51F0BE-CE40-42B8-9D87-0B764B6E00C5@steffann.nl> <47B4D89B-D752-4F4C-8226-41FCB0A610F0@retevia.net> In-Reply-To: From: Mark Smith Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:30:43 +1100 Message-ID: To: Robert Raszuk Cc: Sander Steffann , "spring@ietf.org" , 6man WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 21:31:19 -0000 On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 at 06:46, Robert Raszuk wrote: > > Hey Sander, > > No worries ... three IPv6 musketeers have already presented themselves we= ll to this discussion. This was just one more demo of it. No need to apolog= ize - at least me :) > You realise that the 3 musketeers were heroes in that story? > And while you can call someone's opinion the way you like - the fact that= SRv6 builds on top of IPv6 does not make it automatically IPv6 extension. > SRv6 is not building on top of IPv6 when it is proposing fundamental changes to the way IPv6 packets are processed. SPRING WG charter: "SPRING WG should avoid modification to existing data planes that would make them incompatible with existing deployments. Where possible, existing control and management plane protocols must be used within existing architectures to implement the SPRING function." Regards, Mark "Athos" Smith. > My perhaps subtle point was that while politically it has been sold like = minor IPv6 extension from technical point it does not need to be positioned= like one. The sole fact that it reuses the same ethertype does not make it= an extension. > > Now as I have already been through my round of circular explanations in t= he previous months - now I just sit and watch how it goes round and round a= gain. > > Best, > R., > > > On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 8:22 PM Sander Steffann wrot= e: >> >> Hi, >> >> >> Regardless if folks agree or not with that SRv6 is a new data plane. = SRv6 !=3D IPv6 that's obvious. >> >> >> >> It also does not attempt to *extend* IPv6. It reuses some IPv6 elemen= ts and makes sure non SRv6 nodes can treat the packets as vanilla IPv6, but= that's it. With that in mind all of this going back and forth between SPRI= NG and 6MAN to me is triggered by wrong positioning of SRv6 as a new transp= ort. >> > >> > This is completely bogus. SRv6 is not a new L3 protocol that just happ= ens to be compatible with IPv6. That is insane BS. >> >> I have been told by good friends that my language was inappropriate. It = probably is, but I'm not going to apologize for it. I and others have tried= the polite way unsuccessfully and are still ignored by the authors. This h= as been going on for far too long, and if it's necessary that someone stops= being polite and call it out then I'll be the one to do it. >> >> Cheers, >> Sander >> >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Wed Feb 26 13:37:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 660713A07B6; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 13:37:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] 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([fe80::75af:23bf:bdc5:ef10%22]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.003; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 16:37:23 -0500 From: "Voyer, Daniel" To: Dirk Steinberg , "Zafar Ali (zali)" CC: Lizhenbin , "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Topic: [EXT]Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Index: AQHV7Mw11tqntXEdSECRXFRXLBEUfaguFTGA///rEIA= Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 21:37:22 +0000 Message-ID: References: <55795690-EB0D-45F1-8483-675B061C6739@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.22.0.200209 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.24.25.8] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_ACFEC17C8F6C42528E7220CF118ED790bellca_" MIME-Version: 1.0 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([2607:fb90:2840:5533:9944:8b77:3f24:2c03]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h3sm5209829wrb.23.2020.02.26.13.55.52 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 26 Feb 2020 13:55:55 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9E676767-B7A6-488F-9DC4-6871CE6D59DF"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Bob Hinden X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <907734565.529015.1582747778596@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 13:55:46 -0800 Cc: Bob Hinden , Warren Kumari , SPRING WG List , 6man@ietf.org, "Zafar Ali (zali)" Message-Id: References: <5D218BFB-0D6F-4F7D-858F-B571A67DC47F@leddy.net> <907734565.529015.1582747778596@webmail.networksolutionsemail.com> To: "john leddy.net" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 21:56:04 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9E676767-B7A6-488F-9DC4-6871CE6D59DF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 John, > On Feb 26, 2020, at 12:09 PM, john leddy.net wrote: >=20 > The understanding at IETF98 with rfc2460 moving to rfc8200 was that = any tightening in header processing language was to get to an adopted = standard and NOT to be used as club to bludgeon innovation by a small = group of loud hummers. To repeat what has been said before, the way to do this is to write a = draft that defines how these constraints could be relaxed and build a = consensus around that. This has not been completed. We had a constructive discussion on this topic at IETF 106, it=E2=80=99s = recorded in the minutes at: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/106/materials/minutes-106-6man-01.txt= I have not seen any further discussion after IETF 106. Bob >=20 >=20 >> On February 26, 2020 at 2:15 PM Warren Kumari = wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >> I would suggest that people read RFC 7282 - "On Consensus and Humming >> in the IETF", especially Sections 3 & 6 (it is a short document, you >> should read the whole thing, but pay special attention to these >> sections). >>=20 >> It doesn't really matter how many people say +1 for moving it = forwards >> -- if there are valid technical objections these have to be dealt = with >> - and I think that the relationship with RFC8200 falling into this >> category... >>=20 >> W >>=20 >> On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 2:01 PM John Leddy wrote: >>>=20 >>> +1 in support of moving the document forward. >>>=20 >>> John Leddy >>>=20 >>> Sent from my iPhone >>>=20 >>>> On Feb 26, 2020, at 10:22 AM, Bob Hinden = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> =EF=BB=BFZafar, >>>>=20 >>>>> On Feb 26, 2020, at 9:43 AM, Zafar Ali (zali) = wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> +1, >>>>>=20 >>>>> Just to add, in the spirit of IETF = https://www.ietf.org/how/runningcode/ =E2=80=A6 >>>>> implementation, commercial deployment and Inter-op status has been = documented in = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-s= tatus/ >>>>=20 >>>> I think the proper question is there a consensus to advance this = document. >>>>=20 >>>> There seems to be questions about its relationship with RFC8200. I = am not seeing this as being resolved. >>>>=20 >>>> Bob >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> = -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>>> ipv6@ietf.org >>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>>> = -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>=20 >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>> ipv6@ietf.org >>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> -- >> I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad >> idea in the first place. >> This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later = expressing >> regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair >> of pants. >> ---maf --Apple-Mail=_9E676767-B7A6-488F-9DC4-6871CE6D59DF Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; 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a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=n2tSekOvpJWPD6u3SdEbcRLjXXTi0g2q5mskD3JyiLU=; b=b3gzmdDnkorsAGziW6Y+U9PQnxC7A+LDgblVPZgd102sIkwG7PIdAWli72M4mvkJJg 8I0gV6eOL8d8LiW0zsqp64Ehr0jXZt4zlnNWnU6Jtt4bxPY467pvXWLNsrZv6J2y7jnW ClEDoHVZXjtlOGMoGgbB/RfjQOQa3Pw6TqdHfJwPMIH3P/SjJxUkmumW7bx7lcn5Wis/ 7Tlyvd4+mbOOIQQkOcCaC1VEudCYNBeWV46Xtx9LEn3QqVC4LX03Jbx5HS07Zb240b4o ROUplpRHZroHS7NLA7e/zgwVcczXU/i53oSBAnA+0z7Eg3FHngeaeDGqhBwCmSZM53+R OhMg== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ3P/ls5GveLAIeXvlx6kQVp63UzH726gw2lMqixN9Z7BaRFhOvI oYLeM/WbgEHfMWu/eke5na1bPklIIvcV4IWTuqw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vsYdf7iWvwDmCwUxCpBTIu3T2gS64UELOc2rLUTzQiR65g5hFUhblJRzR0V1ifGIE0b+6K3MPFtI8vUmNiRpJI= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:7c08:: with SMTP id x8mr709722ljc.185.1582756703839; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 14:38:23 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <156476392205.21015.9558221802284168698.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 14:38:12 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" Cc: Martin Vigoureux , "spring-chairs@ietf.org" , spring , MPLS Working Group , "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A (ATTLABS)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000192ab3059f82438a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] New Version Notification for draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-08.txt X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 22:38:35 -0000 --000000000000192ab3059f82438a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear All, please find my notes and questions in-lined tagged GIM>>. Regards, Greg On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 12:58 PM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) < cpignata@cisco.com> wrote: > [A very late reply to this email, but since no-one else replied=E2=80=A6 = to add > topic diversity to the list.] > > SPRING chairs, > > Sending this note only for completeness, and not as indication of interes= t > or support of draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-08.txt. > Since draft-mirsky-spring-bfd has no provenance metadata > (Replaces/Replaced-by tags), I thought it useful to point to the ancestry > of this text. > > TL;DR: > > Two big concerns: > 1. Review of this text (on a different draft) in the MPLS WG is > unacknowledged and undressed. Basically this text has technical > showstoppers. > GIM>> To the best of my understanding, all technical questions have been addressed. The latest update also includes the Implementation Considerations section. I believe that it is up to WG chairs to evaluate whether WG has reached consensus (rough) on the WG draft. Carlos clearly has his opinion but, I believe, that is not necessarily correctly reflects the opinion of MPLS WG. > 2. Potentially applicable IPR, as per the email below, is undisclosed. > GIM>> As I understand the IPR process at IETF, a third party that believes that the particular IPR (application or patent) is applicable to the given document can file the IPR Disclosure. If Carlos believes that there is an undisclosed IPR, then he should follow the IETF process. As for me, to the best of my understanding, there's no undisclosed IPR related to this draft. > > Besides there being no apparent interest, there=E2=80=99s serious issues. > > Longer version: > > Martin, At the time you were shepherd of draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed, so > you might remember this. > > Much of the text of draft-mirsky-spring-bfd seems to be coming from > earlier versions of draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed. > > The text was removed from draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed during reviews in > the MPLS WG, instead of fixing it, and now it seems to have found its way > into a new document and a new WG, bypassing the previous review. > > All the text from draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed about SRv6 was removed > here: > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed-03.txt > All the text from draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed about SR MPLS was removed > here: > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed-05.txt > GIM>> Authors always welcome and appreciate comments. Changes in scope were presented and accepted by MPLS WG. > > All that text received critical review and comments that can be found for > example at: > > - > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?q=3D%22draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-d= irected%22%20%22Segment%20Routing%3A%20MPLS%20Data%20Plane%20Case%22 > > - > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?q=3D%22draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-d= irected%22%20%22Segment%20Routing%22 > > > And the authors of draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed decided to remove it as > per: > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/imnwjd0the9F-F4gdHxh_J3xzq4 > > This particular email to the MPLS WG has interesting text: > " > * authors decided to remove sections Segment Routing: MPLS Data Plane > Case* > > *... * > * The new version has been submitted as* > * draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed-05* > * (see below) and, to the best of our knowledge and understanding, > earlier* > * disclosed IPR is no longer applicable to this version.* > =E2=80=9C > > Basically this seems to imply that there was IPR applicable to that text, > that removing it made it not applicable to the MPLS WG doc. > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/search/?submit=3Ddraft&id=3Ddraft-ietf-m= pls-bfd-directed > > However, that text seems to have founds its way to this new doc, but ther= e > does not seem to be any IPR disclosures. > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/search/?submit=3Ddraft&id=3Ddraft-mirsky= -spring-bfd > GIM>> As noted above, authors of draft-mirsky-spring-bfd believe that there is no undisclosed IPR relevant to the draft. Any third party that believes otherwise is free to follow the IETF process of IPR disclosure. > > There are still significant outstanding technical issues with this text, > raised in the MPLS WG under a different I-D, but still apply, as for > example: > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/pPq_LO8E0vIKKYLiHa50z7cFWks > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/iXsENQuPWmmgsueNiUMlyRCcu4U > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/X1a595fcp8D-WYGO9UkVsqum23s > Etc. > GIM>> As I've noted above, all the technical comments to draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed have been addressed by authors. Changes to the scope of draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed were made by the authors after discussion in MPLS WG. > > Back to your regular programming (no pun intended :-) > > Best, > > Carlos. > > On Aug 2, 2019, at 12:46 PM, Greg Mirsky wrote: > > Dear All, > with this update, we've added a section on using BFD for Multipoint > Networks (RFC 8562 and RFC 8563) for proactive defect detection in > Point-to-Multipoint SR Policies. > Authors believe that the draft is stable and addresses p2p, as well as, > p2mp use cases of SR-MPLS. We appreciate your consideration of WG adoptio= n > poll for this specification. > > Regards, > Greg > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: > Date: Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 12:38 PM > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-08.txt > To: Ilya Varlashkin , Gregory Mirsky < > gregimirsky@gmail.com>, Ilya Varlashkin , Jeff Tantsura > , Mach Chen (Guoyi) > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-08.txt > has been successfully submitted by Greg Mirsky and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name: draft-mirsky-spring-bfd > Revision: 08 > Title: Bidirectional Forwarding Detection (BFD) in Segment > Routing Networks Using MPLS Dataplane > Document date: 2019-08-02 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 13 > URL: > https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-08.txt > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd/ > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-08 > Htmlized: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd > Diff: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-mirsky-spring-bfd-08 > > Abstract: > Segment Routing (SR) architecture leverages the paradigm of source > routing. It can be realized in the Multiprotocol Label Switching > (MPLS) network without any change to the data plane. A segment is > encoded as an MPLS label, and an ordered list of segments is encoded > as a stack of labels. Bidirectional Forwarding Detection (BFD) is > expected to monitor any existing path between systems. This document > defines how to use Label Switched Path Ping to bootstrap a BFD > session, control path in reverse direction of the SR-MPLS tunnel and > applicability of BFD Demand mode in the SR-MPLS domain. > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > The IETF Secretariat > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > > --000000000000192ab3059f82438a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear All,
please find my notes and qu= estions in-lined tagged GIM>>.

Regards,
Greg

On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 12:58 PM Carlos Pignataro (cpignata= ) <cpignata@cisc= o.com> wrote:
[A very late reply to this email, but since no-one else replied=E2=80= =A6 to add topic diversity to the list.]

SPRING chairs,

Sending this note only for completeness, and not as indication of inte= rest or support of draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-08.txt.
Since draft-mirsky-spring-bfd has no provenance metadata (Replaces/Rep= laced-by tags), I thought it useful to point to the ancestry of this text.<= /div>

TL;DR:

Two big concerns:
1. Review of this text (on a different draft) in the MPLS WG is unackn= owledged and undressed. Basically this text has technical showstoppers.
GIM>> To the best of my u= nderstanding, all technical questions have been addressed. The latest updat= e also includes the Implementation Considerations section. I believe that i= t is up to WG chairs to evaluate whether WG has reached consensus (rough) o= n the WG draft. Carlos clearly has his opinion but, I believe, that is not = necessarily correctly reflects the opinion of MPLS WG.
2. Potentially applicable IPR, as per the email below, is undisclosed.=
GIM>> As I understand= the IPR process at IETF, a third party that believes that the particular I= PR (application or patent) is applicable to the given document can file the= IPR Disclosure. If Carlos believes that there is an undisclosed IPR, then = he should follow the IETF process. As for me, to the best of my understandi= ng, there's no undisclosed IPR related to this draft.

Besides there being no apparent interest, there=E2=80=99s serious issu= es.

Longer version:

Martin, At the time you were shepherd of=C2=A0draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-dire= cted, so you might remember this.

Much of the text of=C2=A0draft-mirsky-spring-bfd seems to be coming fr= om earlier versions of=C2=A0draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed.

The text was removed from=C2=A0draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed during rev= iews in the MPLS WG, instead of fixing it, and now it seems to have found i= ts way into a new document and a new WG, bypassing the previous review.

All the text from draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed about SRv6 was removed = here:=C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2= =3Ddraft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed-03.txt
All the text from draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed about SR MPLS was remov= ed here:=C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?u= rl2=3Ddraft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed-05.txt
=
GIM>> Authors always welcome and appreciate comment= s. Changes in scope were presented and accepted by MPLS WG.=C2=A0

All that text received critical review and comments that can be found = for example at:
And the authors of=C2=A0draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed decided to remove= it as per:=C2=A0https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arc= h/msg/mpls/imnwjd0the9F-F4gdHxh_J3xzq4

This particular email to the MPLS WG has interesting text:
"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 authors decided to remove sections Segment Routing: M= PLS Data Plane Case
...
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The new version has been submitted as
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-directed-05
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (see below) and, to the best of our knowledge and und= erstanding, earlier
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 disclosed IPR is no longer applicable to this version= .
=E2=80=9C

Basically this seems to imply that there was IPR applicable to that te= xt, that removing it made it not applicable to the MPLS WG doc.=C2=A0

However, that text seems to have founds its way to this new doc, but t= here does not seem to be any IPR disclosures.
GIM>> As noted above, authors = of draft-mirsky-spring-bfd believe that there is no undisclosed IPR relevan= t to the draft. Any third party that believes otherwise is free to follow t= he IETF process of IPR disclosure.=C2=A0

There are still significant outstanding technical issues with this tex= t, raised in the MPLS WG under a different I-D, but still apply, as for exa= mple:
Etc.
GIM>> As I&#= 39;ve noted above, all the technical comments to draft-ietf-mpls-bfd-direct= ed have been addressed by authors. Changes to the scope of draft-ietf-mpls-= bfd-directed were made by the authors after discussion in MPLS WG.

Back to your regular programming (no pun intended :-)=C2=A0

Best,

Carlos.

On Aug 2, 2019, at 12:46 PM, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear All,
with this update, we've added a section on using BFD for Multipoin= t Networks (RFC 8562 and RFC 8563) for proactive defect detection in Point-= to-Multipoint SR Policies.
Authors believe that the draft is stable and addresses p2p, as well as= , p2mp use cases of SR-MPLS. We appreciate your consideration of WG adoptio= n poll for this specification.

Regards,
Greg

---------- Forwarded message --------= -
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 12:38 PM
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-08.txt
To: Ilya Varlashkin <ilya@nobulus.com>, Gregory Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, Ilya Varlash= kin <Ilya@nobulus.= com>, Jeff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf@gmail.com>, Mach Chen (Guoyi) <mach.chen@huawei.com>



A new version of I-D, draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-08.txt
has been successfully submitted by Greg Mirsky and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-mirsky-spring-bfd
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A008
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Bidirectional Forwarding Detection= (BFD) in Segment Routing Networks Using MPLS Dataplane
Document date:=C2=A0 2019-08-02
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 13
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-08.txt
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ht= tps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd/
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://to= ols.ietf.org/html/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd-08
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0htt= ps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-mirsky-spring-bfd
Diff:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-mirsky-spring-bfd-08<= br>
Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Segment Routing (SR) architecture leverages the paradigm of so= urce
=C2=A0 =C2=A0routing.=C2=A0 It can be realized in the Multiprotocol Label S= witching
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(MPLS) network without any change to the data plane.=C2=A0 A s= egment is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0encoded as an MPLS label, and an ordered list of segments is e= ncoded
=C2=A0 =C2=A0as a stack of labels.=C2=A0 Bidirectional Forwarding Detection= (BFD) is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0expected to monitor any existing path between systems.=C2=A0 T= his document
=C2=A0 =C2=A0defines how to use Label Switched Path Ping to bootstrap a BFD=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0session, control path in reverse direction of the SR-MPLS tunn= el and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0applicability of BFD Demand mode in the SR-MPLS domain.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

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([2400:2411:8900:0:c4b6:6a4c:fb0b:a0bd]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k4sm4074474pfg.40.2020.02.26.14.45.06 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 26 Feb 2020 14:45:09 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.40.2.2.4\)) From: Satoru Matsushima In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 07:45:05 +0900 Cc: Dirk Steinberg , "Zafar Ali (zali)" , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , "Zafar Ali (zali)" , Lizhenbin , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3C2177EE-8840-4CFF-B930-ECCB6116C53F@gmail.com> References: <55795690-EB0D-45F1-8483-675B061C6739@cisco.com> To: Dan Voyer X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.40.2.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 22:45:14 -0000 +1 Cheers, --satoru > 2020/02/27 6:37=E3=80=81Voyer, Daniel = =E3=81=AE=E3=83=A1=E3=83=BC=E3=83=AB: >=20 > +1 > =20 > Thanks > dan > =20 > From: Dirk Steinberg > Date: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 12:52 PM > To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" > Cc: Lizhenbin , Bruno Decraene = , SPRING WG List , = "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" , = draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming = > Subject: [EXT]Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move = forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming > Resent-From: > Resent-To: , , John Leddy = , , = , > Resent-Date: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 12:52 PM > =20 > +1 > =20 > Cheers > Dirk > =20 > On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 7:43 PM Zafar Ali (zali) = wrote: >> +1, >> =20 >> Just to add, in the spirit of IETF = https://www.ietf.org/how/runningcode/ =E2=80=A6 >> implementation, commercial deployment and Inter-op status has been = documented in = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-s= tatus/ >> =20 >> Thanks >> =20 >> Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar >> =20 >> From: spring on behalf of Lizhenbin = >> Date: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 6:55 AM >> To: "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , 'SPRING = WG List' >> Cc: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, = draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming = >> Subject: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC = - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming >> =20 >> Hi Bruno and WG, >> The LC has lasted for almost 3 months which greatly exceeds the = expected 2 week. In the process all the comments have been resolved = while some issues is raised again and again with little value.=20 >> On the other hand, there have been multiple commercial implementation = and inter-op test and almost 20 deployments for SRv6 which justify the = solution proposed by the draft in practice.=20 >> =20 >> We sincerely request to close the LC of the draft and move forward. >> =20 >> =20 >> =20 >> Best Regards, >> Zhenbin (Robin) >> =20 >> =20 >> From: bruno.decraene@orange.com [mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com]=20 >> Sent: Friday, December 06, 2019 1:15 AM >> To: 'SPRING WG List' >> Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming = >> Subject: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming >> =20 >> Hello SPRING, >> =20 >> This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on = draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming [1]. >> =20 >> Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent = version, and send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later than = December 20. >> =20 >> You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not = duplicating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which are = only spring specifics. >> =20 >> If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically = debated on the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread for = this point. >> This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this point = and that other points get forgotten (or that the thread get converted = into parallel independent discussions) >> =20 >> Thank you, >> Bruno >> =20 >> [1] = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-05 >> =20 >> =20 >> = __________________________________________________________________________= _______________________________________________ >> =20 >> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations = confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc >> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous = avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler >> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les = messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, >> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, = deforme ou falsifie. Merci. >> =20 >> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or = privileged information that may be protected by law; >> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. >> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender = and delete this message and its attachments. >> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have = been modified, changed or falsified. >> Thank you. >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > External Email: Please use caution when opening links and attachments = / Courriel externe: Soyez prudent avec les liens et documents joints=20 > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring From nobody Wed Feb 26 14:48:18 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24F093A09AA; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 14:48:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.999, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jeRyeRFwuLHh; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 14:48:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x632.google.com (mail-pl1-x632.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::632]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 10C093A09B0; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 14:48:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x632.google.com with SMTP id y1so283584plp.7; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 14:48:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=uApiUJpalcjlDFPrH5kB5UF2sxy7EuE0yUzPbXw5VnM=; b=CAFLnx6cn7M94OWu55oJMeueozT6nEjOnijlnR8BOebRZiJuNMDLdKl4CvQKgBqoxM hEJTSZ8pYUFOrdkDlplXx3XJS9vdN7GD3M2sQ9uyzbXGXzaemUdTqljodoSyuc0NjPP8 rV13eJP1f7Fv+bXBlnOmOv7jFoRJ9GrJLDj+EAMH5DtVOkvNU8eDHRP0m5PC+wFC9DDM Yx3k6P3/MZFaowC1V9gLKAGXd4rVT39ERv3x5yFx9zlyJZSocFaqnJKuas6sUPHbAavp +evlRHCnk4k/5kBFuye4tIyXMhwXevQ+hk2kfb13qcLeMY6xiDGKCESrC8xv7jOexqyH Id+g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=uApiUJpalcjlDFPrH5kB5UF2sxy7EuE0yUzPbXw5VnM=; b=qHB/pSxVnKFTsDZaeBlPTId5qBM9QEsSYuEdNVALhWbwy8EuSx/HdRyClfx27QrbR/ auIE1iSbqwcyukH6WMaa/Pr+pjMb06Ums92lUApPO8VTY4EKT1vTwTna4P2GdDXp5kSH 66X34kusEDqQqQLRgnh/axT556GNvSAOE5+xhWpW58qoSlU9LHhTg1Edjl2M9hN14xFi u0AEsLs01QtpSMjHBiuH7F30/PJSkGc4b8QFJcVB/VpqC6lr/Nr6jqFzSlNAe6zylo2g aaysmSKlMeIp3XyevUpQGd9Mv2dU6eE4h1MXBfTK7mGmZRTDo3i4ZWsqlqB5rhfD9TbD 6Emg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU0uadeFu1xp/sBRLdjhaxs3TA0kv/MFzZrLQNORqoBJQW4MilO y/Krb4kSMYh0yOTOUkREsxMRXYVgCEGO51dsGOMGHweC X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxZ2Vy8lYiEGCqQed6G9FRuyyjE02X0QlTAaVS1FY0+tzIn5A5w8awsnzfHs2zqq0C6y8L0OzAHsCI7J+LxnN8= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:7303:: with SMTP id m3mr1502057pjk.62.1582757291170; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 14:48:11 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Mark Smith Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 09:47:45 +1100 Message-ID: To: SPRING WG , 6man WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: [spring] draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10 - "3.1. SID Format" should be more prescriptive X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 22:48:13 -0000 Hi, "3.1. SID Format" presents the structure of SIDs as fairly arbitrary and up to the operator to choose: "This document defines an SRv6 SID as consisting of LOC:FUNCT:ARG, where a locator (LOC) is encoded in the L most significant bits of the SID, followed by F bits of function (FUNCT) and A bits of arguments (ARG). L, the locator length, is flexible, and an operator is free to use the locator length of their choice. F and A may be any value as long as L+F+A <= 128. When L+F+A is less than 128 then the reminder of the SID MUST be zero. A locator may be represented as B:N where B is the SRv6 SID block (IPv6 subnet allocated for SRv6 SIDs by the operator) and N is the identifier of the parent node instantiating the SID." In abstract, for a 128 bit SID by itself, this would probably be fine. However, as 128 bit SIDs eventually become commonly (always?) used as IPv6 addresses in the forwarding plane and other places, I think it is important that this section makes clear that there are also IPv6 addressing constraints on the SID formats and values. A bit of a contrived example, however, somebody may start with a LOC and FUNC of all zeros, and an ARG of 1 for convenience. That would result in a SID of ::1, valid according to the above text, however is also the loopback IPv6 address, which will not work in an IPv6 network forwarding plane, and already has a function of looping packets back to within the local sending node. These IPv6 addressing constraints would be that SID structures and values need to fit within the existing unicast address spaces (and multicast if there are multicast SIDs?), not be from within a reserved unicast IPv6 prefix unless appropriate, follow the structure of the chosen address space (i.e. GUA, ULA or Link-Local prefix, subnet and IID fields), and not used reserved IID values, as some of them already have functional meaning, such as Mobile IPv6 Home-Agents anycast. The text could be some general advice identifying these constraints, as people who are planning IPv6 addressing should already be aware of these IPv6 address planning constraints. Alternatively it could be very explicit, providing references to e.g. RFC 4291, IANA registries etc. I think general advice would do, although explicit references might be useful to reinforce that picking SID structure and values is also picking IPv6 prefixes and addresses. I can come up with some text and the references based on which direction people think is best. Regards, Mark. 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([2620:119:5003:20c:491f:9a46:3d5d:7459]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e1sm4246246pff.188.2020.02.26.15.20.16 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 26 Feb 2020 15:20:16 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-CF029B4E-1CBA-4392-AD6A-8834670BF088 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Gaurav Dawra Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 15:20:15 -0800 Message-Id: <7AC413D6-F1B0-4B5D-87C0-A48AA2698C9F@gmail.com> References: <55795690-EB0D-45F1-8483-675B061C6739@cisco.com> Cc: Lizhenbin , "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming In-Reply-To: <55795690-EB0D-45F1-8483-675B061C6739@cisco.com> To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17A878) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 23:20:22 -0000 --Apple-Mail-CF029B4E-1CBA-4392-AD6A-8834670BF088 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1 Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 26, 2020, at 9:43 AM, Zafar Ali (zali) wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > +1, > =20 > Just to add, in the spirit of IETF https://www.ietf.org/how/runningcode/ =E2= =80=A6 > implementation, commercial deployment and Inter-op status has been documen= ted in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deploym= ent-status/ > =20 > Thanks > =20 > Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar > =20 > From: spring on behalf of Lizhenbin > Date: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 6:55 AM > To: "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , 'SPRING WG Li= st' > Cc: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-progra= mming > Subject: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - dra= ft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming > =20 > Hi Bruno and WG, > The LC has lasted for almost 3 months which greatly exceeds the expected 2= week. In the process all the comments have been resolved while some issues i= s raised again and again with little value. > On the other hand, there have been multiple commercial implementation and i= nter-op test and almost 20 deployments for SRv6 which justify the solution p= roposed by the draft in practice. > =20 > We sincerely request to close the LC of the draft and move forward. > =20 > =20 > =20 > Best Regards, > Zhenbin (Robin) > =20 > =20 > From: bruno.decraene@orange.com [mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com]=20 > Sent: Friday, December 06, 2019 1:15 AM > To: 'SPRING WG List' > Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming > Subject: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming > =20 > Hello SPRING, > =20 > This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-spring= -srv6-network-programming [1]. > =20 > Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent version, and= send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later than December 20. > =20 > You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not duplic= ating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which are only spring= specifics. > =20 > If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically debated o= n the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread for this point. > This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this point and t= hat other points get forgotten (or that the thread get converted into parall= el independent discussions) > =20 > Thank you, > Bruno > =20 > [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming= -05 > =20 > =20 > __________________________________________________________________________= _______________________________________________ > =20 > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confide= ntielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez rec= u ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages e= lectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou= falsifie. Merci. > =20 > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged in= formation that may be protected by law; > they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and del= ete this message and its attachments. > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been= modified, changed or falsified. > Thank you. > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring --Apple-Mail-CF029B4E-1CBA-4392-AD6A-8834670BF088 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1

Sent from my iPh= one

On Feb 26, 2020, at 9= :43 AM, Zafar Ali (zali) <zali=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
=EF=BB=BF=

+1,

 

Just to add, in the spirit of IETF https://www.ietf.org/how/runningcode/ =E2=80=A6

implementation, commercial deployment and Inter-op st= atus has been documented in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-sta= tus/

 

Thanks

 

Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar

 

From:= spring <spring-b= ounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Lizhenbin <lizhenbin@huawei.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 6:55 AM
To: "bruno.decraene@orange.com" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>, 'S= PRING WG List' <spring@ietf.org>
Cc: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-net= work-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>=
Subject: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC -= draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

 

Hi Bruno and WG,

The LC has lasted for almost 3 months which greatly exc= eeds the expected 2 week. In the process all the comments have been resolved= while some issues is raised again and again with little value.

On the other hand, there have been multiple commercial i= mplementation and inter-op test and almost 20 deployments for SRv6 which jus= tify the solution proposed by the draft in practice.

 

We sincerely request to close the LC of the draft and m= ove forward.

 

 

 

Best Regards,

Zhenbin (Robin)

 

 

From: bruno.decraene@orange.c= om [mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com]
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2019 1:15 AM
To: 'SPRING WG List' <spring@ietf.org>
Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <dra= ft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
Subject: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

 

Hello SPRING,
 
This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-spr=
ing-srv6-network-programming [1].
 
Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent version, a=
nd send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later than December 20.=

 
You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not dup=
licating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which are only spr=
ing specifics.
 
If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically debate=
d on the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread for this point=
.
This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this point an=
d that other points get forgotten (or that the thread get converted into par=
allel independent discussions)
 
Thank you,
Bruno
 
[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-networ=
k-programming-05
 

 

_____________________________________________________=
____________________________________________________________________<=
o:p>
 
Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des=
 informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc=

pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisat=
ion. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jo=
intes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a e=
te altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
 
This message and its attachments may contain confiden=
tial or privileged information that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied withou=
t authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please noti=
fy the sender and delete this message and its attachments.=

As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for me=
ssages that have been modified, changed or falsified.

Thank you.
_______________________________________________
spring= mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ie= tf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
= --Apple-Mail-CF029B4E-1CBA-4392-AD6A-8834670BF088-- From nobody Wed Feb 26 15:45:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32AC43A0B46; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 15:45:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z9AcppbLggn4; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 15:45:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 98A263A0B44; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 15:45:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (unknown [181.45.84.85]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 87E89806DB; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 00:45:23 +0100 (CET) To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" , Warren Kumari , John Leddy Cc: SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden , "Zafar Ali (zali)" References: <5D218BFB-0D6F-4F7D-858F-B571A67DC47F@leddy.net> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <8abfd5a1-e806-3598-c389-8214b3d09447@si6networks.com> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 20:45:13 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 23:45:33 -0000 Hello, Eric, On 26/2/20 20:18, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote: > Writing this without any hat, > > Please note that on the logical side, it still have to be "proven" that this idea is strictly forbidden by RFC 8200. Here's the proof part: 1) Isn't IPv6 end to end? 2) How do core components of IPv6, such as AH and PMTUD work in the present of intermediate nodes that can add and/or remove arbitrary extension headers? It should be clear from the above that EH insertion/deletion is forbidden. Since this topic has been brought up again and again, I have submitted an errata to RFC8200 which clarifies the intended behaviour: * https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5933 (that's what Errata's are for, after all... and it should be clear that the EH processing part, overall, needs improvements). Thanks! Cheers, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Wed Feb 26 15:48:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A1E03A0B66; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 15:48:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1ethJE9Sh0jd; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 15:48:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B40883A0B59; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 15:48:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (unknown [181.45.84.85]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0C6E58344A; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 00:48:11 +0100 (CET) To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" , Warren Kumari , John Leddy Cc: SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden , "Zafar Ali (zali)" References: <5D218BFB-0D6F-4F7D-858F-B571A67DC47F@leddy.net> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <594adb46-e3c8-d344-7ed4-4ac8b7e7212f@si6networks.com> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 20:48:06 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 23:48:20 -0000 On 26/2/20 20:18, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote: > Writing this without any hat, > > Please note that on the logical side, it still have to be "proven" that this idea is strictly forbidden by RFC 8200. Moreover, this 'proof' can technically wait until the IETF last call or even until the IESG ballot. I see little point in postponing the closing of the WGLC and advancing the document (of course, the document shepherd will need to carefully write the section about the rough WG consensus). I'm not sure how the document could advance with clear and sound technical objections. For instance... if anything, can anybody claim consensus on this point? > Finally, as far as I know, at the IETF we have no religion... else we would still be running NCP or IPv4 :-) There's a difference between us forcing the use of specific technologies (.e., a specific routing protocol in your network) and aiming at consistency in our specs. We are a standards organization. If we can't keep our specs consistent, and we violate our specs at will, I'm not sure our work will be taken seriously. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Wed Feb 26 15:50:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0A2B3A0B7F; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 15:50:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=neutral reason="invalid (unsupported algorithm ed25519-sha256)" header.d=uniroma2.it header.b=QRyXIWYK; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=uniroma2.it header.b=R6xWNvkx Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VBjepVspd9g9; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 15:50:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.uniroma2.it (smtp.uniroma2.it [160.80.6.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ECBE03A0B72; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 15:50:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpauth-2019-1.uniroma2.it (smtpauth.uniroma2.it [160.80.5.46]) by smtp-2015.uniroma2.it (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8) with ESMTP id 01QNoCX9013073; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 00:50:18 +0100 Received: from [192.168.1.80] (93-36-196-249.ip61.fastwebnet.it [93.36.196.249]) by smtpauth-2019-1.uniroma2.it (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 52D3412290E; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 00:50:08 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=ed25519-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=uniroma2.it; s=ed201904; t=1582761008; h=from:from:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=63zhyKWK8FSJJSwT+KJx0Eg29fK7dz425bWTLAX/H2o=; b=QRyXIWYKAAB6JYmP9AEj8PL2URVtpcU7DaW0CEFA6feACfPmbZ82EOKmgJovVftFhwkcjl /LMt8009DXKsAKCg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=uniroma2.it; s=rsa201904; t=1582761008; h=from:from:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=63zhyKWK8FSJJSwT+KJx0Eg29fK7dz425bWTLAX/H2o=; b=R6xWNvkxF4mFWB2JKPWGtsdCmFK9rNiWXa8kXvq4Pf8mapWMs8VayCFOfWDixXhrrI6Fw1 na9jD8y0ecqVfA+zi+4tjft6lgx6mtP9YOzKRSzIg/3D17skGWnx27puDfLGFJXjGSnrI5 ca2gmtHEKkjfyWAFi/EENL1UqJC2MRoE7ljMLszMjx09qWOPVcjYCeVMqdtuxRCzEj3CEj suU6EScBPqqIs9NNztxYz90h92lMdesEF0ZRaX2on8JOUyOkH9xvdUjbL+anyRMOiIi1p8 Gk96uL5pbySomJthIlqcf7B3NxKXdFM/9UojnBaMZQGgKtgXOXUpvNJxmnK69g== To: Satoru Matsushima , Dan Voyer Cc: SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Dirk Steinberg , "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , "Zafar Ali (zali)" , "Zafar Ali (zali)" , Lizhenbin , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming References: <55795690-EB0D-45F1-8483-675B061C6739@cisco.com> <3C2177EE-8840-4CFF-B930-ECCB6116C53F@gmail.com> From: Stefano Salsano Message-ID: <14c05514-e60d-144f-3a7a-67eb49eb7db3@uniroma2.it> Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 00:50:07 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3C2177EE-8840-4CFF-B930-ECCB6116C53F@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: it-IT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.100.0 at smtp-2015 X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 23:50:40 -0000 +1 Regards, Stefano Il 2020-02-26 23:45, Satoru Matsushima ha scritto: > +1 > > Cheers, > --satoru > >> 2020/02/27 6:37ã€Voyer, Daniel ã®ãƒ¡ãƒ¼ãƒ«: >> >> +1 >> >> Thanks >> dan >> >> From: Dirk Steinberg >> Date: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 12:52 PM >> To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" >> Cc: Lizhenbin , Bruno Decraene , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming >> Subject: [EXT]Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming >> Resent-From: >> Resent-To: , , John Leddy , , , >> Resent-Date: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 12:52 PM >> >> +1 >> >> Cheers >> Dirk >> >> On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 7:43 PM Zafar Ali (zali) wrote: >>> +1, >>> >>> Just to add, in the spirit of IETF https://www.ietf.org/how/runningcode/ … >>> implementation, commercial deployment and Inter-op status has been documented in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-status/ >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Regards … Zafar >>> >>> From: spring on behalf of Lizhenbin >>> Date: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 6:55 AM >>> To: "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , 'SPRING WG List' >>> Cc: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming >>> Subject: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming >>> >>> Hi Bruno and WG, >>> The LC has lasted for almost 3 months which greatly exceeds the expected 2 week. In the process all the comments have been resolved while some issues is raised again and again with little value. >>> On the other hand, there have been multiple commercial implementation and inter-op test and almost 20 deployments for SRv6 which justify the solution proposed by the draft in practice. >>> >>> We sincerely request to close the LC of the draft and move forward. >>> >>> >>> >>> Best Regards, >>> Zhenbin (Robin) >>> >>> >>> From: bruno.decraene@orange.com [mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com] >>> Sent: Friday, December 06, 2019 1:15 AM >>> To: 'SPRING WG List' >>> Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming >>> Subject: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming >>> >>> Hello SPRING, >>> >>> This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming [1]. >>> >>> Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent version, and send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later than December 20. >>> >>> You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not duplicating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which are only spring specifics. >>> >>> If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically debated on the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread for this point. >>> This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this point and that other points get forgotten (or that the thread get converted into parallel independent discussions) >>> >>> Thank you, >>> Bruno >>> >>> [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-05 >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ >>> >>> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc >>> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler >>> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, >>> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci. >>> >>> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; >>> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. >>> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments. >>> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified. >>> Thank you. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> spring mailing list >>> spring@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >> External Email: Please use caution when opening links and attachments / Courriel externe: Soyez prudent avec les liens et documents joints >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > -- ******************************************************************* Stefano Salsano Professore Associato Dipartimento Ingegneria Elettronica Universita' di Roma Tor Vergata Viale Politecnico, 1 - 00133 Roma - ITALY http://netgroup.uniroma2.it/Stefano_Salsano/ E-mail : stefano.salsano@uniroma2.it Cell. : +39 320 4307310 Office : (Tel.) +39 06 72597770 (Fax.) +39 06 72597435 ******************************************************************* From nobody Wed Feb 26 16:12:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A2163A0C53; 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Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:12:03 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee65e570951023-c394e From: "Weiqiang Cheng" To: "'Voyer, Daniel'" , "'Lizhenbin'" , "'Dirk Steinberg'" , "'Zafar Ali \(zali\)'" Cc: "'SPRING WG List'" , <6man@ietf.org>, , "'Zafar Ali \(zali\)'" , "'draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming'" References: <55795690-EB0D-45F1-8483-675B061C6739@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:12:01 +0800 Message-ID: <07a501d5ed02$89bead70$9d3c0850$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_07A6_01D5ED45.97E1ED70" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: AQHV7Mw11tqntXEdSECRXFRXLBEUfaguFTGA///rEICAACq8EA== Content-Language: zh-cn Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 00:12:19 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_07A6_01D5ED45.97E1ED70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1 =20 Cheers Weiqiang Cheng =20 =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] = =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Voyer, Daniel =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2020=E5=B9=B42=E6=9C=8827=E6=97=A5 = 05:37 =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Dirk Steinberg; Zafar Ali (zali) =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: SPRING WG List; 6man@ietf.org; = bruno.decraene@orange.com; Zafar Ali (zali); Lizhenbin; = draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move = forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming =20 +1 =20 Thanks dan =20 From: Dirk Steinberg Date: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 12:52 PM To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" Cc: Lizhenbin , Bruno Decraene = , SPRING WG List , = "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" , = draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming = Subject: [EXT]Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: = WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Resent-From: Resent-To: , , John Leddy = , , = , Resent-Date: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 12:52 PM =20 +1 =20 Cheers Dirk =20 On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 7:43 PM Zafar Ali (zali) = wrote: +1,=20 =20 Just to add, in the spirit of IETF https://www.ietf.org/how/runningcode/ = =E2=80=A6=20 implementation, commercial deployment and Inter-op status has been = documented in = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-= status/=20 =20 Thanks =20 Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar=20 =20 From: spring on behalf of Lizhenbin = Date: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 6:55 AM To: "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , 'SPRING WG = List' Cc: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, = draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming = Subject: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - = draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming =20 Hi Bruno and WG, The LC has lasted for almost 3 months which greatly exceeds the expected = 2 week. In the process all the comments have been resolved while some = issues is raised again and again with little value.=20 On the other hand, there have been multiple commercial implementation = and inter-op test and almost 20 deployments for SRv6 which justify the = solution proposed by the draft in practice.=20 =20 We sincerely request to close the LC of the draft and move forward.=20 =20 =20 =20 Best Regards, Zhenbin (Robin) =20 =20 From: bruno.decraene@orange.com [mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com]=20 Sent: Friday, December 06, 2019 1:15 AM To: 'SPRING WG List' Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming = Subject: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming =20 Hello SPRING, =20 This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on = draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming [1]. =20 Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent version, = and send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later than December 20. =20 You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not = duplicating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which are = only spring specifics. =20 If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically debated = on the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread for this = point. This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this point and = that other points get forgotten (or that the thread get converted into = parallel independent discussions) =20 Thank you, Bruno =20 [1] = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-05= =20 =20 _________________________________________________________________________= ________________________________________________ =20 Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations = confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez = recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages = electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme = ou falsifie. Merci. =20 This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged = information that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and = delete this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have = been modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring _____ =20 External Email: Please use caution when opening links and attachments / = Courriel externe: Soyez prudent avec les liens et documents joints=20 ------=_NextPart_000_07A6_01D5ED45.97E1ED70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

+1

 

Cheers

Weiqiang Cheng

 

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB= =B6=E4=BA=BA: spring = [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1= =A8 Voyer, = Daniel
=E5=8F=91=E9=80= =81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: = 2020=E5=B9=B42=E6=9C=8827=E6=97=A5 05:37
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Dirk Steinberg; Zafar Ali = (zali)
=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: SPRING WG List; = 6man@ietf.org; bruno.decraene@orange.com; Zafar Ali (zali); Lizhenbin; = draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98= : Re: [spring] Request = to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - = draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

 

+1

 

Thanks

dan

 

From: Dirk Steinberg = <dirk@lapishills.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 = at 12:52 PM
To: "Zafar Ali (zali)" = <zali=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: Lizhenbin = <lizhenbin@huawei.com>, Bruno Decraene = <bruno.decraene@orange.com>, SPRING WG List = <spring@ietf.org>, "6man@ietf.org" = <6man@ietf.org>, "Zafar Ali (zali)" = <zali@cisco.com>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming = <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
Subject= : [EXT]Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: = WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
Resent-From: = <alias-bounces@ietf.org>
Resent-To: = <cf@cisco.com>, <pcamaril@cisco.com>, John Leddy = <john@leddy.net>, <daniel.voyer@bell.ca>, = <satoru.matsushima@g.softbank.co.jp>, = <lizhenbin@huawei.com>
Resent-Date: Wednesday, February = 26, 2020 at 12:52 PM

 

+1

 

Cheers

Dirk

 

On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 7:43 PM = Zafar Ali (zali) <zali=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org= > wrote:

+1,

 

Just to add, in the spirit of IETF https://www.ietf.org/how/runningcode/ =E2=80=A6 =

implementation, commercial deployment and Inter-op status = has been documented in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-matsushima-sprin= g-srv6-deployment-status/

 

Thanks

 

Regards =E2=80=A6 Zafar

 

From: = spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Lizhenbin = <lizhenbin@huawei.com>
Date: = Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 6:55 AM
To: "bruno.decraene@orange.com" <bruno.decraene@orange.com>, 'SPRING WG List' = <spring@ietf.org>
Cc: "6man@ietf.org" = <6man@ietf.org>, = draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org= >
Subject: [spring] Request to close the LC and move = forward//RE: WGLC - = draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

 

Hi Bruno and = WG,

The LC has lasted = for almost 3 months which greatly exceeds the expected 2 week. In the = process all the comments have been resolved while some issues is raised = again and again with little value.

On the other hand, = there have been multiple commercial implementation and inter-op test and = almost 20 deployments for SRv6 which justify the solution proposed by = the draft in practice.

 

We sincerely = request to close the LC of the draft and move forward.

 

 

 

Best = Regards,

Zhenbin = (Robin)

 

 

From: bruno.decraene@orange.com [mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com]
Sent: = Friday, December 06, 2019 1:15 AM
To: 'SPRING WG List' <spring@ietf.org>
Cc: 6man@ietf.org; = draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org= >
Subject: WGLC - = draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

 

Hello =
SPRING,
 
This =
email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on =
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming =
[1].
 
Please read this document if you haven't read the most =
recent version, and send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later =
than December 20.
 
You =
may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not =
duplicating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which are =
only spring specifics.
 
If =
you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically debated on =
the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread for this =
point.
This may help =
avoiding that the thread become specific to this point and that other =
points get forgotten (or that the thread get converted into parallel =
independent discussions)
 
Thank =
you,
Bruno
 
[1] =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-netw=
ork-programming-05
 

 

_______________________________________________________________=
__________________________________________________________
 
Ce message et =
ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou =
privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre =
diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce =
message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur =
et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques =
etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline =
toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. =
Merci.
 
This message =
and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information =
that may be protected by law;
they should =
not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have =
received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this =
message and its attachments.
As emails may =
be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, =
changed or falsified.
Thank =
you.

_______________________________________________
spring = mailing list
spring@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

E= xternal Email: = Please use caution when opening links and attachments / = C= ourriel externe: = Soyez prudent avec les liens et documents joints

------=_NextPart_000_07A6_01D5ED45.97E1ED70-- From nobody Wed Feb 26 16:29:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F2703A0CC5 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 16:29:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qTgr004RDcJV for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 16:29:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x32a.google.com (mail-ot1-x32a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 116EA3A0C86 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 16:29:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x32a.google.com with SMTP id 59so1247317otp.12 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 16:29:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=yHb6mWnPh5czYy8loY2Q4xaM6DrWFd+lztcB8Sg2cw8=; b=fMq53AEdTLRteMkEKs4Y73A5Zzo7qqQdi2VoYUNECBwd3GoQN44zb2rovPfvbMfGFz qtHcKAGv6BF0k1vV9dMimR86Q85r2DM5DCyTQXUV8Y5wjDQ+liswSCKyuq5QYR1ocORf thYo6SJkB2Z8l+GGj2xhRSOIVvwvSwjVQDki6G2NCvK3lsiYwSuA/GiFErk7s5hOmJbr tXvJIfxRxg/G5iWNhLkSAY8awVzn2HgCNOSqlxjJt0ynbliY04Obd+KqwZ34tlFMAfdn vd88A08gPg1RryU/yywlXmgXjJcPlqCapX1J5jqsoDxsTRI3VAC3Po8UpdDLgAia61E6 1lEQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=yHb6mWnPh5czYy8loY2Q4xaM6DrWFd+lztcB8Sg2cw8=; b=X6HlsipxfvMzVdXwXeeHgfVQzivB3O0hWcCnVeCnQPyhUihPvlGaWJ0M8mlNtuoaVo GyGwCxsxEs7kPgsejoWnjZzGXmRatan9okapJ86KJUU2c1b2UmH7yWy7N9aQqNXdVScj 262DRqG3Y4XhyI9fb/hzNklE90nkfXMLnD7ZiE68CRmXuUy08wgrBglOuMD/AT4j6r7f a1sDPvM3M4HbYiFCCd1WzoljWNWK5o4jVwozlaeGu0Jnmjf/3tHsfQlAVC4/CMW+vwXJ ftMFuM7D+nHYUzMprFbpH2oTb6E3ddQ+12C2UGH3df93jefGCmjCBH1NCYDJWkqbvfs7 LKkQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX2t5c162UG8ikA2egqq4CM82RPWmpTR5QLVO07ZAb/HcO5BqBL /JFm/tcbx2nG2uN9h7ie4vr2Q103oWbUiggdu4nuCA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxgDul3Ke+SI1U9MAFC6jZvBINXkgBAnPkadkFYk3Ku4bmdBCKL4y+YBOumZL2VUO/RNjeZckoGL4MCmKVPbEE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1385:: with SMTP id d5mr1233846otq.61.1582763374188; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 16:29:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7B51F0BE-CE40-42B8-9D87-0B764B6E00C5@steffann.nl> <47B4D89B-D752-4F4C-8226-41FCB0A610F0@retevia.net> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 01:29:23 +0100 Message-ID: To: Mark Smith , Sander Steffann , Fernando Gont Cc: "spring@ietf.org" , 6man WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000aeb144059f83d064" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 00:29:36 -0000 --000000000000aeb144059f83d064 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > You realise that the 3 musketeers were heroes in that story? > Oh I do. And I want to sincerely congratulate three of you to be very effective to discourage touching IPv6, its dogmas and principles. If this is good for the industry, time will tell. To me I got even more assurance now that IPv6 with its 40 octet fixed header is a broken concept and deserves to be obsolete very soon - especially for intra-domain use cases. Btw new data plane much more efficient can be easily made compatible with all existing and deployed v6 capable data plane hardware. If I would work for a vendor perhaps I would have some cycles to propose it, but otherwise it is just impossible to get sufficient support and get through with new technology. Kind regards, RR. PS. @Fernando ... you keep forgetting in your post and your errata about RFC2473. I recommend you take a new read of it including section 3.1 and match it against your IPv6 end to end principle. It is roto operational principle behind SRv6. --000000000000aeb144059f83d064 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
You realise that the 3 musketeers were heroes in that st= ory?

Oh I do.=C2=A0

And I want to sincerely congratulate three=C2=A0of you to be very eff= ective to discourage touching IPv6, its dogmas and principles. If this=C2= =A0is good for the industry, time will tell.=C2=A0

To me I got even more assurance now that IPv6 with its 40 octet fixed head= er is a broken concept and deserves to be obsolete very soon - especially f= or intra-domain use cases.=C2=A0

Btw new data plan= e much more efficient can be easily made compatible with all existing=C2=A0= and deployed v6 capable data plane hardware. If I would work for a vendor p= erhaps I would have some cycles to propose it, but otherwise it is just imp= ossible to get sufficient support and get through with new technology.=C2= =A0

Kind regards,
RR.=C2=A0
PS.=C2=A0@Fernando ... you keep forgetting in your post and yo= ur errata about RFC2473. I recommend you take a new read of it including se= ction 3.1 and match it against your IPv6 end to end principle. It is roto o= perational principle behind SRv6.

--000000000000aeb144059f83d064-- From nobody Wed Feb 26 17:14:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C68A03A0D7B; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 17:14:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aoIJbjiv-apR; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 17:14:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x1035.google.com (mail-pj1-x1035.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1035]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 08CAA3A0D75; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 17:14:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x1035.google.com with SMTP id a18so389972pjs.5; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 17:14:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=VSSlxV35B1rpSEh1KVf/s1U+1CtjIrjJ8B9HoLR3p0s=; b=YkfOvAkbVchXUesfB+zjfkkBinvvH4xoCxUNw0ku5ROXOg510a3Zqjez9kOZ2geplp pzXu5Rw4NZLdKDGz1pvhPng9/H3Mz74fDX36IWxW9GvIy9s0DXCw9IRDxyutRGfJPgBd e/ROvdlBH2GGomamlvm/OrjNqFMkufpkd57+TzF1A2Ufn2wle0++v8e4li4CH9G5QhXj WqQVvWN1BC9zNurZlPkSQMjbyuebmF5HHAkEh/AD0ydxG6xfFeyG33+pdAuqfJJQcdd9 LrHJmVh1vKDPpDfNcvu6PKjy5F4xe+vTvQOKDRWoQvp/0iNkhnz1X5T6WbXltXGWR+BA 1MWQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=VSSlxV35B1rpSEh1KVf/s1U+1CtjIrjJ8B9HoLR3p0s=; b=JUF14uwoEawm7GfR3mbIMpwfugqh+/HBEPIamnN6SPWKX33oq5zrDbnqLOrhmzmwAS C1PxmudO0lTnyF0PTrCShb8IKpzvICgDAp/hw9MydMimIb2jqfa1uJcUJWm0wncJQE/Y 0hZgh6rd0FbXVSvrYmJUF+AclUBlV4EsErp7UymeLHRND6jY7ZTlpe72FtC/FdR8EaUk vrfnRCI2WvKHIX+KFA52G5JDs3dHVF5rpzxojY7hHMvmevsEdhV3P0kJY7F5kEG8Un28 mvsKIDYAOnEJzguF+a90weE1vP8eSFxEik1jeBcsttB+fqImnyu0Dq1Ial2Gr8thOzHm HdHw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVaaQs2W2uuCh+kLxXgHieAx3B8AfOVEagT/Y5jPk4lYKsE2LmC XvUDVramcuW1MpgsC+DT0hE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzDDPLT2McACUObAgQ8IH+3SwI9xok+8orzmeXvZxQcwEfyFxm+jzWif3HR84GewQsbfpOTAw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:198e:: with SMTP id 14mr2069508pji.44.1582766051188; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 17:14:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] ([165.84.25.143]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g12sm4202358pfh.170.2020.02.26.17.14.07 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 26 Feb 2020 17:14:10 -0800 (PST) To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" , Warren Kumari , John Leddy Cc: SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden , "Zafar Ali (zali)" References: <5D218BFB-0D6F-4F7D-858F-B571A67DC47F@leddy.net> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:14:05 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 01:14:17 -0000 Eric, On 27-Feb-20 12:18, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote: > Writing this without any hat, >=20 > Please note that on the logical side, it still have to be "proven" that= this idea is strictly forbidden by RFC 8200.=20 The draft uses an undefined term ("pop") but it does *explicitly* state i= n a section called "Penultimate Segment Pop of the SRH": >> S14.4. Remove the SRH from the IPv6 extension header chain If the word "penultimate" means what it means in every dictionary, this i= s in-flight removal of a header, and that is explicitly against RFC 8200,= section 4, first paragraph below the diagram. It's possible that "penultimate" means something else, e.g. "ultimate". I= don't know. I've been puzzling over this language for months and it does= n't change. Maybe someone can finally post an explanation, but until they= do, I don't see how any WG Chair could assert rough consensus. An obviou= sly organised +1+1+1+1 campaign is not consensus. I don't know about you,= but when I see a message whose only content is "+1" I just delete it. Brian > Moreover, this 'proof' can technically wait until the IETF last call or= even until the IESG ballot. I see little point in postponing the closing= of the WGLC and advancing the document (of course, the document shepherd= will need to carefully write the section about the rough WG consensus). >=20 > Finally, as far as I know, at the IETF we have no religion... else we w= ould still be running NCP or IPv4 :-) >=20 > -=C3=A9ric >=20 > =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message----- > From: ipv6 on behalf of Warren Kumari >=20 > ...%<...%<.... > =20 > It doesn't really matter how many people say +1 for moving it forwa= rds > -- if there are valid technical objections these have to be dealt w= ith > - and I think that the relationship with RFC8200 falling into this > category... > =20 >=20 >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 From nobody Wed Feb 26 17:15:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 521183A0DA6; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 17:14:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.309 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.309 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, INVALID_MSGID=0.568, T_SPF_HELO_TEMPERROR=0.01, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6FzYPJgTuMZQ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 17:14:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from cmccmta2.chinamobile.com (cmccmta2.chinamobile.com [221.176.66.80]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E69D3A0C78; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 17:14:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from spf.mail.chinamobile.com (unknown[172.16.121.19]) by rmmx-syy-dmz-app08-12008 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2ee85e5717e72d5-58c04; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 09:14:15 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2ee85e5717e72d5-58c04 X-RM-TagInfo: emlType=0 X-RM-SPAM-FLAG: 00000000 Received: from LAPTOP-5GS3BPC8 (unknown[114.249.243.244]) by rmsmtp-syy-appsvr10-12010 (RichMail) with SMTP id 2eea5e5717e5570-216e9; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 09:14:15 +0800 (CST) X-RM-TRANSID: 2eea5e5717e5570-216e9 MIME-Version: 1.0 x-PcFlag: b3fddf69-0b10-4043-b8e1-38bf04a77644_5_2009 X-Mailer: PC_RICHMAIL 2.8.0 Date: 27 Feb 2020 09:14:13 +0800 From: =?utf-8?B?WWlzb25nIExpdQ==?= To: =?utf-8?B?Vm95ZXIsIERhbmllbA==?=, =?utf-8?B?RGlyayBTdGVpbmJlcmc=?= Cc: =?utf-8?B?U1BSSU5HIFdHIExpc3Q=?=, 6man<6man@ietf.org>, bruno.decraene, =?utf-8?B?WmFmYXIgQWxpIFwoemFsaVwp?=, Lizhenbin, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Message-ID: 20200227091413865199318@chinamobile.com> Content-Type: multipart/Alternative; boundary="----=_001_NextPart865199318_=----" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 01:14:46 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_001_NextPart865199318_=---- Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQ0rMSANDQ0NDVRoYW5rcw0NWWlzb25nDQ0NDQ0NDQ0NDQ0NDSANDQ0N5Y+R5Lu25Lq6OiBWb3ll ciwgRGFuaWVsDQ3ml7bpl7Q6IDIwMjAvMDIvMjco5pif5pyf5ZubKTA1OjM3DQ3mlLbku7bkuro6 IERpcmsgU3RlaW5iZXJnO1phZmFyIEFsaSAoemFsaSk7DQ3mioTpgIHkuro6IFNQUklORyBXRyBM aXN0OzZtYW47YnJ1bm8uZGVjcmFlbmU7WmFmYXIgQWxpIFwoemFsaVwpO0xpemhlbmJpbjtkcmFm dC1pZXRmLXNwcmluZy1zcnY2LW5ldHdvcmstcHJvZ3JhbW1pbmc7DQ3kuLvpopg6IFJlOiBbc3By aW5nXSBSZXF1ZXN0IHRvIGNsb3NlIHRoZSBMQyBhbmQgbW92ZSBmb3J3YXJkLy9SRTogV0dMQyAt 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+1 

= Thanks
Yisong

=
 
=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:=20Voyer,=20Daniel
=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:=202020/02/27(=E6=98=9F=E6=9C=9F=E5=9B=9B)05:37=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:=20Dirk=20Steinberg;Zafar=20Ali=20(zali);
=E6=8A=84= =E9=80=81=E4=BA=BA:=20SPRING=20W= G=20List;6man;bruno.decraene;Zafar=20Ali=20=5C(zali=5C);Lizhenbin;draft-ietf-spring-srv6-net= work-programming;
=0A<= div=20class=3D=22WordSection1=22=20style=3D=22page:WordSection1;=22>=0A+1

=0A 

=0AThanks

= =0Adan

=0A 

=0A=0AFrom:= =20Dirk=20Ste= inberg=20<dirk=40lapishills.com>
=0ADate:=20Wednesday,=20Fe= bruary=2026,=202020=20at=2012:52=20PM
=0ATo:=20=22Zafar=20Ali=20(= zali)=22=20<zali=3D40cisco.com=40dmarc.ietf.org>
=0ACc:=20L= izhenbin=20<lizhenbin=40huawei.com>,=20Bruno=20Decraene=20<bruno.d= ecraene=40orange.com>,=20SPRING=20WG=20List=20<spring=40ietf.org>,= =20=226man=40ietf.org=22=20<6man=40ietf.org>,=20=22Zafar=20Ali=20(zal= i)=22=20<zali=40cisco.com>,=20draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programm= ing=20<draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming=40ietf.org>
=0A<= b>Subject:=20=5BEXT=5DRe:=20=5Bspring=5D=20Request=20to=20close=20the= =20LC=20and=20move=20forward//RE:=20WGLC=20-=20draft-ietf-spring-srv6-netwo= rk-programming
=0AResent-From:=20<alias-bounces=40ietf.org>=
=0AResent-To:=20<cf=40cisco.com>,=20<pcamaril=40cisco.c= om>,=20John=20Leddy=20<john=40leddy.net>,=20<daniel.voyer=40bel= l.ca>,=20<satoru.matsushima=40g.softbank.co.jp>,=20<lizhenbin= =40huawei.com>
=0AResent-Date:=20Wednesday,=20February=2026,= =202020=20at=2012:52=20PM

=0A
=0A
=0A 

=0A
=0A
=0A+1

=0A
=0A 

=0A
=0A
=0ACheers<= o:p>

=0A
=0A
=0ADirk

=0A
=0A
=0A <= /p>=0A
=0A
=0AOn=20Wed,=20Feb=2026,=20= 2020=20at=207:43=20PM=20Zafar=20Ali=20(zali)=20<zali=3D40cisco.com=40dmarc.ietf.org>= =20wrote:

=0A
=0A=0A
=0A
=0A+1,=0A

=0A=  

=0AJust=20to=20add,=20in=20the=20spirit=20of=20= IETF=0Ahttps://www.ietf.org/how/runningcode/=20=E2=80=A6=0A<= /o:p>

=0Aimplemen= tation,=20commercial=20deployment=20and=20Inter-op=20status=20has=20been=20= documented=20in=0A=0Ahttps:= //datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-matsushima-spring-srv6-deployment-status/<= /a>=0A

=0A 

=0A
=0AThanks

=0A 

=0A
=0ARegards=20=E2=80=A6=20Zafar=0A

=0A <= /o:p>

=0A=0A<= span=20lang=3D=22EN-US=22=20style=3D=22font-size:12.0pt;color:black=22>From= :=0Aspring=20<spring-bounces=40ietf.org>=20on=20behalf=20= of=20Lizhenbin=20<lizhenbin=40huawei.com>
=0ADate:=20Wedne= sday,=20February=2026,=202020=20at=206:55=20AM
=0ATo:=20=22brun= o.decraene=40orange.com=22=20<bruno.decraene=40orange.com>= ;,=20'SPRING=20WG=20List'=20<spring=40ietf.org>
=0ACc:=20=226man=40ietf.= org=22=20<6man=40ietf.org>,=20draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programmin= g=20<draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programm= ing=40ietf.org>
=0ASubject:=20=5Bspring=5D=20Request=20to= =20close=20the=20LC=20and=20move=20forward//RE:=20WGLC=20-=20draft-ietf-spr= ing-srv6-network-programming

=0A
=0A
=0A 

=0A
=0AHi=20Brun= o=20and=20WG,

=0AThe=20LC=20has=20lasted=20for=20almost=203=20months=20w= hich=20greatly=20exceeds=20the=20expected=202=20week.=20In=20the=20process= =20all=20the=20comments=20have=20been=0A=20resolved=20while=20some=20issues= =20is=20raised=20again=20and=20again=20with=20little=20value.=20

=0AOn= =20the=20other=20hand,=20there=20have=20been=20multiple=20commercial=20impl= ementation=20and=20inter-op=20test=20and=20almost=2020=20deployments=20for= =20SRv6=0A=20which=20justify=20the=20solution=20proposed=20by=20the=20draft= =20in=20practice.=20=0A 

=0AWe=20sincerely=20request=20to=20clos= e=20the=20LC=20of=20the=20draft=20and=20move=20forward.=0A

=0A 

=0A=  

=0A 

= =0ABest=20Regards,<= o:p>

=0AZhenbin=20(Robin)

=0A&nbs= p;

=0A 

=0A<= div>=0A=0AFrom:=0Abruno.decr= aene=40orange.com=20=5Bmailto:bruno.decraene=40orange.com=5D=0A=0ASent:=20Friday,=20December=2006,=202019=201:15=20AM
=0ATo= :=20'SPRING=20WG=20List'=20<spring=40ietf.org>
=0ACc:=206man=40ietf.= org;=20draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming=20<draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming=40ietf.org><= br>=0ASubject:=20WGLC=20-=20draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programmi= ng

=0A
=0A
=0A 

=0AHello=20SPRING,=0A <= /o:p>=0AThis=20email=20starts=20a=20two=20weeks=20Working=20Group=20Last=20C= all=20on=20draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming=20=5B1=5D.= =0A=  =0APlease=20read=20this=20document=20if=20you=20haven't=20rea= d=20the=20most=20recent=20version,=20and=20send=20your=20comments=20to=20th= e=20SPRING=20WG=20list,=20no=20later=20than=20December=2020.=0A&nbs= p;=0AYou=20may=20copy=20the=206MAN=20WG=20for=20IPv6=20related=20= comment,=20but=20consider=20not=20duplicating=20emails=20on=20the=206MAN=20= mailing=20list=20for=20the=20comments=20which=20are=20only=20spring=20speci= fics.=0A =0AIf=20you=20are=20raising=20a=20point=20whi= ch=20you=20expect=20will=20be=20specifically=20debated=20on=20the=20mailing= =20list,=20consider=20using=20a=20specific=20email/thread=20for=20this=20po= int.=0AThis=20may=20help=20avoiding=20that=20the=20thread=20become= =20specific=20to=20this=20point=20and=20that=20other=20points=20get=20forgo= tten=20(or=20that=20the=20thread=20get=20converted=20into=20parallel=20inde= pendent=20discussions)=0A =0AThank=20you,=0ABr= uno=0A =0A=5B1=5D=20https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-program= ming-05=0A =0A 

=0A__________________________________= ___________________________________________________________________________= ____________=0A =0ACe=20message=20et=20ses=20pieces=20jointes=20pe= uvent=20contenir=20des=20informations=20confidentielles=20ou=20privilegiees= =20et=20ne=20doivent=20donc=0Apas=20= etre=20diffuses,=20exploites=20ou=20copies=20sans=20autorisation.=20Si=20vo= us=20avez=20recu=20ce=20message=20par=20erreur,=20veuillez=20le=20signaler<= /span>=0Aa=20l'expediteur=20et=20le=20detru= ire=20ainsi=20que=20les=20pieces=20jointes.=20Les=20messages=20electronique= s=20etant=20susceptibles=20d'alteration,<= o:p>=0AOrange=20decline=20toute=20responsabilite=20si=20ce=20message=20a= =20ete=20altere,=20deforme=20ou=20falsifie.=20Merci.=0A =0AThis=20= message=20and=20its=20attachments=20may=20contain=20confidential=20or=20pri= vileged=20information=20that=20may=20be=20protected=20by=20law;=0Athey=20should=20not=20be=20distributed,=20use= d=20or=20copied=20without=20authorisation.=0AIf=20you=20have=20received=20this=20email=20in=20error,=20please= =20notify=20the=20sender=20and=20delete=20this=20message=20and=20its=20atta= chments.=0AAs=20emails=20may=20be= =20altered,=20Orange=20is=20not=20liable=20for=20messages=20that=20have=20b= een=20modified,=20changed=20or=20falsified.=0AThank=20you.=0A=0A=0A_________________= ______________________________
=0Aspring=20mailing=20list
=0Aspring=40ietf.or= g
=0Ahttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

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=0A=0A=0A=0A ------=_001_NextPart865199318_=------ From nobody Wed Feb 26 17:43:09 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03A443A0DC7; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 17:43:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=neutral reason="invalid (unsupported algorithm ed25519-sha256)" header.d=uniroma2.it header.b=oXnmxzJX; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=uniroma2.it header.b=btAPX3rm Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yCBEamXk8VYz; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 17:43:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.uniroma2.it (smtp.uniroma2.it [160.80.6.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 910C03A0DE7; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 17:43:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpauth-2019-1.uniroma2.it (smtpauth-2019-1.uniroma2.it [160.80.5.46]) by smtp-2015.uniroma2.it (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8) with ESMTP id 01R1goim016235; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 02:42:55 +0100 Received: from [192.168.1.80] (93-36-196-249.ip61.fastwebnet.it [93.36.196.249]) by smtpauth-2019-1.uniroma2.it (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 057A4121E31; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 02:42:46 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=ed25519-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=uniroma2.it; s=ed201904; t=1582767766; h=from:from:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=0jPKl3u3RBj+g1CQvfmfMlrlj9uMSKuTf0WWAqrHiwc=; b=oXnmxzJXuQ3Rr8W5BS4eqjIpow5nHVzF3gzguw8Efib6FoHkgjo2ntpHRQCYfXvz+vfvvK jnI9A5YRjAay8wAA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=uniroma2.it; s=rsa201904; t=1582767766; h=from:from:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=0jPKl3u3RBj+g1CQvfmfMlrlj9uMSKuTf0WWAqrHiwc=; b=btAPX3rmzWn9n8nkdlHCTEIv+DqpyKn5RPopbTlzCmwgdWAAw9Tsmrdk+fFW1i3mDWu7N2 rpsbkhGIGGnCYQhKp4E8AvdO/2COY9VJS7sA5+OjDJkoFnaOeGXoLoeG1xfXbcsO7HBZH2 MaME6EfF0Gk9lu46N6gFR9W5+pgCsWPlQ+TBNqigG3Jvy3sysCWQvmyUUVATMpqIwhNeh5 VHWH8fxUQMZK9xoZW+jHn/l5J6E5Kzx+gw2TXkzdp1tk2cnrfhJj6uC+c5bcSgPo6hgFVW 4XN4iLizDTyrIJVQSe+KkZo2hwFpNCt2DTb/b3YS9idZNk1sEvIAv/faWPksPg== To: Brian E Carpenter , "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" , Warren Kumari , John Leddy Cc: SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden , "Zafar Ali (zali)" References: <5D218BFB-0D6F-4F7D-858F-B571A67DC47F@leddy.net> From: Stefano Salsano Message-ID: <8a20c0e2-e651-0294-03c2-4b89c44549cc@uniroma2.it> Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 02:42:43 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: it-IT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.100.0 at smtp-2015 X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 01:43:07 -0000 Il 2020-02-27 02:14, Brian E Carpenter ha scritto: > Eric, > > On 27-Feb-20 12:18, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote: >> Writing this without any hat, >> >> Please note that on the logical side, it still have to be "proven" that this idea is strictly forbidden by RFC 8200. > > The draft uses an undefined term ("pop") but it does *explicitly* state in a section called "Penultimate Segment Pop of the SRH": > >>> S14.4. Remove the SRH from the IPv6 extension header chain > > If the word "penultimate" means what it means in every dictionary, this is in-flight removal of a header, and that is explicitly against RFC 8200, section 4, first paragraph below the diagram. Brian, "penultimate segment" means what it means in every dictionary, but this is not in-fligth removal of a header. When the packet has reached the "penultimate segment", it has reached a node "identified in the Destination Address field of the IPv6 header" as stated in RFC 8200, section 4, first paragraph below the diagram Please note that at the very end of section 3 the "Destination address" is defined as "address of the intended recipient of the packet (possibly not the ultimate recipient, if a Routing header is present)" Stefano > > It's possible that "penultimate" means something else, e.g. "ultimate". I don't know. I've been puzzling over this language for months and it doesn't change. Maybe someone can finally post an explanation, but until they do, I don't see how any WG Chair could assert rough consensus. An obviously organised +1+1+1+1 campaign is not consensus. I don't know about you, but when I see a message whose only content is "+1" I just delete it. > > Brian > >> Moreover, this 'proof' can technically wait until the IETF last call or even until the IESG ballot. I see little point in postponing the closing of the WGLC and advancing the document (of course, the document shepherd will need to carefully write the section about the rough WG consensus). >> >> Finally, as far as I know, at the IETF we have no religion... else we would still be running NCP or IPv4 :-) >> >> -éric >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ipv6 on behalf of Warren Kumari >> >> ...%<...%<.... >> >> It doesn't really matter how many people say +1 for moving it forwards >> -- if there are valid technical objections these have to be dealt with >> - and I think that the relationship with RFC8200 falling into this >> category... >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >> ipv6@ietf.org >> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- ******************************************************************* Stefano Salsano Professore Associato Dipartimento Ingegneria Elettronica Universita' di Roma Tor Vergata Viale Politecnico, 1 - 00133 Roma - ITALY http://netgroup.uniroma2.it/Stefano_Salsano/ E-mail : stefano.salsano@uniroma2.it Cell. : +39 320 4307310 Office : (Tel.) +39 06 72597770 (Fax.) +39 06 72597435 ******************************************************************* From nobody Wed Feb 26 18:30:10 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD2753A0EA5; 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Wed, 26 Feb 2020 18:30:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] ([165.84.25.143]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u1sm4389065pfn.133.2020.02.26.18.29.58 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 26 Feb 2020 18:30:01 -0800 (PST) To: Stefano Salsano , "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" , Warren Kumari , John Leddy Cc: SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden , "Zafar Ali (zali)" References: <5D218BFB-0D6F-4F7D-858F-B571A67DC47F@leddy.net> <8a20c0e2-e651-0294-03c2-4b89c44549cc@uniroma2.it> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <53226b1c-6ac5-24b0-4787-a7ccfd9723af@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 15:29:56 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8a20c0e2-e651-0294-03c2-4b89c44549cc@uniroma2.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 02:30:05 -0000 Stefano, On 27-Feb-20 14:42, Stefano Salsano wrote: > Il 2020-02-27 02:14, Brian E Carpenter ha scritto: >> Eric, >> >> On 27-Feb-20 12:18, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote: >>> Writing this without any hat, >>> >>> Please note that on the logical side, it still have to be "proven" th= at this idea is strictly forbidden by RFC 8200. >> >> The draft uses an undefined term ("pop") but it does *explicitly* stat= e in a section called "Penultimate Segment Pop of the SRH": >> >>>> S14.4. Remove the SRH from the IPv6 extension header chain >> >> If the word "penultimate" means what it means in every dictionary, thi= s is in-flight removal of a header, and that is explicitly against RFC 82= 00, section 4, first paragraph below the diagram. >=20 > Brian, >=20 > "penultimate segment" means what it means in every dictionary, but this= =20 > is not in-fligth removal of a header. >=20 > When the packet has reached the "penultimate segment", it has reached a= =20 > node "identified in the Destination Address field of the IPv6 header" a= s=20 > stated in RFC 8200, section 4, first paragraph below the diagram So in what sense is it penultimate (i.e. next to last)? If it has reached= the destination address, what happens next?=20 I understand this for the following case, Ultimate Segment Pop, where the= text refers to processing the packet inside the receiving node. But the text is completely lacking an explanation of the "penultimate" case, and I found nothing about it in other SRH documents either. If I was writing code for this, I would have no idea how to generate a test case. It's also obscure in the text how the node receiving a packet knows which of "PSP, USP and USD flavors" applies. They don't seem to be marked= in the packet in any way. It seems to me that there is something blindingly obvious to SRH speciali= sts that is not stated at all in the draft, so the rest of us simply can't ma= ke sense of it. It may or may not be a gap in the protocol, but there is=20 definitely a gap in the description. Brian >=20 > Please note that at the very end of section 3 the "Destination address"= =20 > is defined as "address of the intended recipient of the packet (possibl= y=20 > not the ultimate recipient, if a Routing header is present)" >=20 > Stefano >=20 >> >> It's possible that "penultimate" means something else, e.g. "ultimate"= =2E I don't know. I've been puzzling over this language for months and it= doesn't change. Maybe someone can finally post an explanation, but until= they do, I don't see how any WG Chair could assert rough consensus. An o= bviously organised +1+1+1+1 campaign is not consensus. I don't know about= you, but when I see a message whose only content is "+1" I just delete i= t. >> >> Brian >> >>> Moreover, this 'proof' can technically wait until the IETF last call = or even until the IESG ballot. I see little point in postponing the closi= ng of the WGLC and advancing the document (of course, the document shephe= rd will need to carefully write the section about the rough WG consensus)= =2E >>> >>> Finally, as far as I know, at the IETF we have no religion... else we= would still be running NCP or IPv4 :-) >>> >>> -=C3=A9ric >>> >>> =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message----- >>> From: ipv6 on behalf of Warren Kumari >>> >>> ...%<...%<.... >>> =20 >>> It doesn't really matter how many people say +1 for moving it fo= rwards >>> -- if there are valid technical objections these have to be deal= t with >>> - and I think that the relationship with RFC8200 falling into th= is >>> category... >>> =20 >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>> ipv6@ietf.org >>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >> ipv6@ietf.org >> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Feb 26 19:26:39 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 795193A0F97; 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charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable body { line-height: 1.5; }blockquote { margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom:= 0px; margin-left: 0.5em; }body { font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: =E5=BE=AE= =E8=BD=AF=E9=9B=85=E9=BB=91; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); line-height: 1.5; }=0A=
Based on the value of this doc, it deserves an extension = of WGLC, even a second WGLC.
It is obvious that some technical is= ssues and comments are still boiled in this list. So, in my opinion I am af= raid that the WGLC can not reach the rough consensus that the doc is ready = to move forward.
=0A=

Since the issues are mainly ralated to the flavor secti= on, why not extract this part from this main doc to a separate doc and try = to move the main doc forward. We can discuss the separate flavor doc furthe= r. 

Best Regards,
Zhenqiang Li
=0A=
li_zhenqiang@hotmail.com
=0A=
 
Date: 20= 20-02-27 03:15
Su= bject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: = WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
I would suggest that people read RFC 7282 - "On Consensus and Hummin= g
=0A=
in the IETF", especially Sections 3 & 6 (it is a short docume= nt, you
=0A=
should read the whole thing, but pay special attention to these
= =0A=
sections).
=0A=
 
=0A=
It doesn't really matter how many people say +1 for moving it forw= ards
=0A=
-- if there are valid technical objections these have to be dealt with=
=0A=
- and I think that the relationship with RFC8200 falling into this=0A=
category...
=0A=
 
=0A=
W
=0A=
 
=0A=
On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 2:01 PM John Leddy <john@leddy.net> wrot= e:
=0A=
>
=0A=
> +1 in support of moving the document forward.
=0A=
>
=0A=
> John Leddy
=0A=
>
=0A=
> Sent from my iPhone
=0A=
>
=0A=
> > On Feb 26, 2020, at 10:22 AM, Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmai= l.com> wrote:
=0A=
> >
=0A=
> > =EF=BB=BFZafar,
=0A=
> >
=0A=
> >> On Feb 26, 2020, at 9:43 AM, Zafar Ali (zali) <zali= =3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
=0A=
> >>
=0A=
> >> +1,
=0A=
> >>
=0A=
> >> Just to add, in the spirit of IETF https://www.ietf.org/= how/runningcode/ =E2=80=A6
=0A=
> >> implementation, commercial deployment and Inter-op statu= s has been documented in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-matsushima-= spring-srv6-deployment-status/
=0A=
> >
=0A=
> > I think the proper question is there a consensus to advance = this document.
=0A=
> >
=0A=
> > There seems to be questions about its relationship with RFC8= 200.  I am not seeing this as being resolved.
=0A=
> >
=0A=
> > Bob
=0A=
> >
=0A=
> >
=0A=
> >
=0A=
> > ------------------------------------------------------------= --------
=0A=
> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
=0A=
> > ipv6@ietf.org
=0A=
> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin= fo/ipv6
=0A=
> > ------------------------------------------------------------= --------
=0A=
>
=0A=
> -----------------------------------------------------------------= ---
=0A=
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
=0A=
> ipv6@ietf.org
=0A=
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ip= v6
=0A=
> -----------------------------------------------------------------= ---
=0A=
 
=0A=
 
=0A=
 
=0A=
--
=0A=
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad=0A=
idea in the first place.
=0A=
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing=
=0A=
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair=0A=
of pants.
=0A=
   ---maf
=0A=
 
=0A=
--------------------------------------------------------------------=0A=
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
=0A=
ipv6@ietf.org
=0A=
Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6=0A=
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=0A= = ------=_001_NextPart127303300561_=------ From nobody Wed Feb 26 20:25:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9133F3A10D0; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 20:25:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KOUwfcRz92fh; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 20:25:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from ESA1-Dor.bell.ca (esa1-dor.bell.ca [204.101.223.58]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 466C33A10C8; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 20:25:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from dc5cmy-d00.bellca.int.bell.ca (HELO DG1MBX01-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca) ([198.235.121.229]) by esa01corp-dor.bell.corp.bce.ca with ESMTP; 26 Feb 2020 23:25:49 -0500 Received: from DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca (2002:8eb6:120e::8eb6:120e) by DG1MBX01-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca (2002:8eb6:120b::8eb6:120b) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 23:25:48 -0500 Received: from DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca ([fe80::75af:23bf:bdc5:ef10]) by DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca ([fe80::75af:23bf:bdc5:ef10%22]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.003; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 23:25:48 -0500 From: "Bernier, Daniel" To: Lizhenbin , "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , 'SPRING WG List' CC: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Topic: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Index: AQHV7SX8Nm2po16IHE+LBOJg19+chw== Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 04:25:48 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.22.0.200209 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.24.25.6] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B8158278ED784E97A93DA31C5A5F58B5bellca_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 04:25:53 -0000 --_000_B8158278ED784E97A93DA31C5A5F58B5bellca_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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20:38:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Vd9RLYWUcT3y3euyHiNn+vTbuct0q0c9zpTJh1aoaEU=; b=VHIJA+yNt9dnFqR7zkfYQIpzS/mf/TI3ylCUo2AABbdLp//IWqs21PVP9jgLn5ZHaq FhhyFjcy8NQ5dpOGb3sMpzkgiJ/HMt2tPmjVtWA4kqCN9A0vl86Ry+l9fgSqcD4DwhoO SAEE81BfjDFUtBQjnFtHs8REZmFQatYpKB82KJTxpZ00dnw5OshWJ9lPeAAyW6w08cW9 jflCwYzwHZMpqEsjPAhuEDEHwNzDl01m5Gr3r5m/EOgx+0KkJ7mFzpDvUwEiJN08Y41v 3DjctpSxWdq4vuBstR5JkZgGcGi0k5W7TLo+mSNk9X3KuYHK4dQc+P8fG/a7QuDrIXGP P3lA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Vd9RLYWUcT3y3euyHiNn+vTbuct0q0c9zpTJh1aoaEU=; b=CEk2+2i3buKp4pl0hH4RQCjNBd1nfQaywFYC2Ne3jq85RHdr154pMPLd7zZsTnUxXJ 85MQ8ZCgfMeEZX4yNacG0lbwHq42tXvrK74NIcYdPNZabR6OarrDhtc7AfSK/4z72tab 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draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 04:39:02 -0000 --0000000000008ead5b059f874ce7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Agreed Ahmed On Wed, Feb 26, 2020, 8:26 PM Bernier, Daniel wrote: > +1 on my side > > > > Daniel Bernier > > > > *From: *spring on behalf of Lizhenbin < > lizhenbin@huawei.com> > *Date: *Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 6:54 AM > *To: *"bruno.decraene@orange.com" , 'SPRING WG > List' > *Cc: *"6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming < > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org> > *Subject: *[spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming > > > > Hi Bruno and WG, > > The LC has lasted for almost 3 months which greatly exceeds the expected 2 > week. In the process all the comments have been resolved while some issues > is raised again and again with little value. > > On the other hand, there have been multiple commercial implementation and > inter-op test and almost 20 deployments for SRv6 which justify the solution > proposed by the draft in practice. > > > > We sincerely request to close the LC of the draft and move forward. > > > > > > > > Best Regards, > > Zhenbin (Robin) > > > > > > *From:* bruno.decraene@orange.com [mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com] > *Sent:* Friday, December 06, 2019 1:15 AM > *To:* 'SPRING WG List' > *Cc:* 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming < > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org> > *Subject:* WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming > > > > Hello SPRING, > > > > This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming [1]. > > > > Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent version, and send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later than December 20. > > > > You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not duplicating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which are only spring specifics. > > > > If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically debated on the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread for this point. > > This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this point and that other points get forgotten (or that the thread get converted into parallel independent discussions) > > > > Thank you, > > Bruno > > > > [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-05 > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ > > > > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc > > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler > > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, > > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci. > > > > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; > > they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. > > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments. > > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified. > > Thank you. > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --0000000000008ead5b059f874ce7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Agreed

Ahmed

On Wed, Feb 26, 2020, 8:26 PM Bernier, Daniel <daniel.bernier@bell.ca> wrote= :

+1 on my side

=C2=A0

Daniel Bernier

=C2=A0

From= : spring <s= pring-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Lizhenbin <lizhenbin@huawe= i.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 6:54 AM
To: "bruno.decraene@orange.com" <brun= o.decraene@orange.com>, 'SPRING WG List' <spring@ietf.org>
Cc: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring= -srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-s= pring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
Subject: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC= - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

=C2=A0

Hi Bruno and WG,

The LC has lasted for almost 3 months which greatly exceeds the e= xpected 2 week. In the process all the comments have been resolved while so= me issues is raised again and again with little value.

On the other hand, there have been multiple commercial implementa= tion and inter-op test and almost 20 deployments for SRv6 which justify the= solution proposed by the draft in practice.

=C2=A0

We sincerely request to close the LC of the draft and move forwar= d.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Best Regards,

Zhenbin (Robin)

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: bruno.decraene@orange.com [mailto:bruno.decra= ene@orange.com]
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2019 1:15 AM
To: 'SPRING WG List' <spring@ietf.org>
Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@i= etf.org>
Subject: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming=

=C2=A0

Hello SPRING,
=C2=A0
This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last =
Call on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming [1].
=C2=A0
Please read this document if you haven't read=
 the most recent version, and send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no =
later than December 20.
=C2=A0
You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment=
, but consider not duplicating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comm=
ents which are only spring specifics.
=C2=A0
If you are raising a point which you expect will =
be specifically debated on the mailing list, consider using a specific emai=
l/thread for this point.
This may help avoiding that the thread become spe=
cific to this point and that other points get forgotten (or that the thread=
 get converted into parallel independent discussions)<=
/pre>

=C2=A0


Thank you,


Bruno


=C2=A0


[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-0=
5


=C2=A0


=C2=A0


____________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________________________


=C2=A0


Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir de=
s informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc=



pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisa=
tion. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<=
u>


a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les piec=
es jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,=



Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a =
ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.


=C2=A0


This message and its attachments may contain confide=
ntial or privileged information that may be protected by law;=



they should not be distributed, used or copied witho=
ut authorisation.


If you have received this email in error, please not=
ify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.


As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for m=
essages that have been modified, changed or falsified.=



Thank you.
_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spr= ing@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring<= /a>
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<1BB7ED35-98EC-4A73-92A3-AD043D462CF7@steffann.nl> <97141983-EDF7-4C1E-A8F1-4ADCD345BC5A@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <97141983-EDF7-4C1E-A8F1-4ADCD345BC5A@cisco.com> From: Gyan Mishra Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 02:14:15 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" Cc: SPRING WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000983023059f897845" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 07:14:31 -0000 --000000000000983023059f897845 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In-line response On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 10:16 AM Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) < pcamaril@cisco.com> wrote: > Gyan, > > > > As I (and other WG members) have explained in the past, PSP is not trying > to provide any feature parity with MPLS. > > > > It enables new use-cases that have been provided by other members in the > list. [1], [2] and [5]. > > From operational perspective it is not complex as explained in [3]. > > There is substantial benefit. Four operators have deployed PSP, which > proves the benefit. > > And additionally operators have expressed their value in [4] and [5]. > > > > [1].- > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/wTLJQkzC6xwSNPbhB84VH0mLXx0 > (1) reduce the load of final destination. This benefit can be notable for the following sub reasons. I know you say you are not trying to create any feature parity with MPLS however by using PSP is similar to PHP in that you are trying to offload processing on the end X node in which could be any node in the path and not just the PHP node. With SRv6 the loophole created here is that at each hop along the traffic engineered path, the SID in the SL is popped and copied to the DA hop by hop - so each hop being a single hop End X SID instantiation, the PSP function of SRH removal can now occur at any node along the path and not just the MPLS style one hop prior to ultimate hop egress PE node. So PSP is being leveraged to be used at any end X and not just the final destination. This makes the situation worse for RFC 8200 violations. What would be the use case where you would need to pop the SRH early at an End X node that is not the final destination. The SL has to be 0 to pop the SRH. Please correct me then if the PSP function can only occur at the final destination one hop prior PHP node. (1.1) final destination tends to have heavy load. It need to handle all the EHs and do the delivery/demultiplex the packet to the right overlay service. Does the egress PE really have a heavy load with modern hardware. How is the PSP function with modern hardware any more difficult popping the SRH on the final destination node then with MPLS explicit null UHP. Other then the 6in6 topmost SRv6 encapsulation that is popped at the final destination which is different then MPLS 4 byte shim topmost, with the bottom stack labels being identical in both scenarios, is there really extra load on the final destination egress PE that is being saved?? (1.2) example 1, the final destination may need to handle the DOH after the= RH. DOH would be set in the encapsulated packet in the customer payload that is tunneled 6in6 over the provider network. Doubtful that DOH would be set in the SP SRv6 closed domain (1.3) example 2, the final destination may need to do the assembly of fragmented packets. In general almost across the board all providers set their MTU to 9216 jumbo so as to not have outer 6in6 SRv6 header fragmentation issues (1.4) example 3, the final destination may need to do AH/ESP after the Fragmentation Header. Just like 1.2 AH/ESP would be part of the customer payload encapsulated (1.5) example 4, the final destination may need to deliver the packet to the right overlay service. In the SP network the packet is still forwarded hop by hop along the SRH traffic engineered path to the prefix SID fec destination, which is always the final destination in the SL, when SL is 0 the USP USD deencapsulation occurs. So in my mind the overlay service would not ever be on an end DT transit node P router and would always sit on an egress PE router. Am I missing something? (2) support the incremental deployment when final destination(s) do not process/recognize SRH. This benefit can be notable for the following sub reasons. This is during interim migration, however I believe the best practice for SRv6 brown field is to have the PEs SRv6 capable and the Ps IPv6 capable for End DT x transit node forwarding only - which P routers should adhere strictly to RFC 8200 and should never have to perform or technically even have to perform the PSP function. In most SP networks the PEs are protocol and feature rich and have the latest code and hardware where the P routers =E2=80=9CBGP free=E2=80=9D =E2= =80=9Cpim free=E2=80=9D core - only perform label swapping in MPLS world and SR world only label stacking. (2.1) A core router may (fan-out) connected with a big number of low-end routers that do not support SRH but support tunnel-end/service-demultiplex function of SRv6. Please elaborate on this scenario > > [2].- > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/V0ZpjVLSVZxHaBwecXFxqJjlg_c > For example in SRv6-based L3VPN service scenario, The ingress PE within SRv6-enabled domain can utilize SR-TE policy to enable TE-path function when encapsulating and transiting L3VPN traffic, The Ingress PE push on customer packets with SID list representing SR-TE policy plus END.DT4 as last SRv6 SID in SRH; So I think, each flavor of PSP/USP/USD can be designed to perform in related SRv6 endpoint. Imaging the PSP, the penultimate Endpoint can perform PSP, e.g. copy the last SID (END.DT4) of SRH to destination field of IPv6 header and POP the SRH, then forwarding it toward egress PE identified by DA. This comment is what lead me to believe my comment in (1) then the PSP is being leveraged as a loophole to be able to perform the PSP function at any node and pop the SRH. In thinking about this it does not make sense at all. My thoughts are that the SRv6 source node ingress PE adds the SRH, and the final destination node egress PE pops the SRH. I don=E2=80=99t understand = why any P node along the path would ever pop the SRH if you have not made it yet to the final destination. Also in the SRv6 programming PSP psuedocode it states the SL=3D0 has to be satisfied =E2=80=94 so if you are on any P router and not at the final dest= ination prefix SID FEC, then you are doing the standard IPv6 data plane forwarding and end dt x node and copying hop by hop the SID to the DA. Since the P routers are doing standard IPv6 forwarding they must comply with RFC8200. Am I missing something? > > > [3].- > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ssobwemrPz0uEZjvRCZP1e4l_l0 > > Removing bytes (aor adding bytes) from arbitrary positions in the middle = of a packet is generally any extremely painful operation. Why would we wan= t a standard that mandated such an operation? Savings a few bytes on SR ho= p (sure, several IP router hops) seems a small benefit for such a cost. > I agree that not much savings adding the PSP function just to POP the SRH at an end x node That sounds weird comment for me. We have deployed that type of function with no compromise in terms of of both performance and operation within reasonable and affordable cost. > > [4].- > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/KXCBHT8Tpy17S5BsJXLBS35yZbk > As of the end of 2019, the SRv6 network consists of: - 1000 Cisco NCS 5500 routers - 1800 Iliad's Nodeboxes - The network services 4.5 million mobile subscribers (as of Q3 2019) - The network is carrying 300 Gbps of commercial traffic at peak hours - It is expected to grow to more than 4000 Nodeboxes in 2020. The following SRv6 features have been deployed: - A Segment Routing Header based data plane - End (PSP), End.X (PSP), End.DT4, T.Encaps.Red, T.Insert.Red functions - BGP VPN SRv6 extensions - ISIS SRv6 extensions - SRH-based Topology Independent (TI-LFA) Fast Reroute mechanisms - Support for ping and traceroute Is this customer doing PSP in end x meaning any transit P router end dt x node? If so in those cases where the SRH is popped on end x node, was their a service overlay or SFC at the P node which was the reason to pop the SRH early on a transit P node. > > > [5].- > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ErcErN39RIlzkL5SKNVAeEWpnAI > PSP allows us to bring SRv6 to legacy PE devices that are not capable of processing the SRH in the dataplane, but are capable of supporting SRv6 in the control plane. See this example: I am streaming traffic from a server to a customer; The ingress PE (near the server) encapsulates the packet and adds an SRH with a low-latency list of segments; The penultimate node in the SRH executes PSP; The egress PE (near the customer) decapsulates the IPv6 header and forwards the inner packet to the customer. We can include SLA unidirectionally from the server to the customer even though that the egress PE has a legacy ASIC. Legacy equipment are a reality and are not easy to replace, hence interoperability with brownfield is key for any innovative approach. This is during migration however I believe the best practice for SRv6 brown field is to have the PEs SRv6 capable and the Ps IPv6 capable for End DT x transit node forwarding only - which P routers should adhere strictly to RFC 8200 and should never have to perform or technically even have to perform the PSP function. In most SP networks the PEs are protocol and feature rich and have the latest code and hardware where the P routers =E2=80=9CBGP free=E2=80=9D =E2= =80=9Cpim free=E2=80=9D only perform label swapping in MPLS world and SR world only label stacking. > > > > I don't see the point of starting a new thread from zero that discusses > the same thing. > > > > Cheers, > > Pablo. > > > > *From: *Gyan Mishra > *Date: *Tuesday, 25 February 2020 at 00:35 > *To: *"Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" > *Cc: *Ron Bonica , SPRING WG > *Subject: *Re: [spring] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt > > > > > > PSP has historical context from PHP ( Penultimate Hop POP) in the MPLS > world. > > > > 20+ years ago when MPLS we originally developed the concept of PHP > implicit null reserved label value 0 was done to offload the burden of th= e > egress PE FEC destination to pop the entire label stack before forwarding > the native IP packet to the CE. > > > > Hardware these days for the last 15 years or so are so advanced that the > idea that you are saving processing on the egress PE has not existed for = a > long time. > > > > Even back then in both SP and enterprise space there were issues that > arise related to PHB QOS egress queuing, that occurs on the PHP node tha= t > had the MPLS shim popped, it cannot schedule on the topmost label via exp > provider markings done on the ingress PE upon label imposition. > > > > A workaround to this issue was to set explicit null label value 0 and use > pipe or uniform mode to tunnel the customer payload to the egress PE FEC > destination called UHP ultimate hop node with topmost label intact. > > > > The concept of implicit null PHP concept did not bode well in the MPLS > world so I don=E2=80=99t see why that feature parity would be added to a = next gen > protocol that would be the future MPLS replacement. > > > > I agree with taking some of the good features and knobs from MPLS, but wh= y > take the ones like implicit null with is really an archaic feature. > > > > My 2 cents > > > > Gyan > > > > On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 5:38 PM Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) 40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > Ron, > > > > This is the 5th time that we have this discussion in the past five months= . > > > > I consider those three questions as closed based on the previous > discussion. > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/yRkDJlXd71k0VUqagM3D77vYcFI/ > > > > Cheers, > > Pablo. > > > > *From: *Ron Bonica > *Date: *Monday, 24 February 2020 at 16:27 > *To: *Andrew Alston , Mark Smith < > markzzzsmith@gmail.com>, Sander Steffann > *Cc: *SPRING WG , "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" < > pcamaril@cisco.com> > *Subject: *RE: [spring] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt > > > > Folks, > > > > We may need to ask the following questions: > > > > 1) Does PSP violate letter of RFC 8200? > > 2) Does PSP violate the spirit of RFC 8200? > > 3) Is PSP a good idea? > > > > The 6man WG, and not SPRING, should answer the first two questions. So I > will avoid them an explore the third. > > > > At first glance, PSP adds no value. Once Segments Left has been > decremented to 0, the Routing header becomes a NOOP. So why bother to > remove it? I see the following arguments: > > > > 1) To save bandwidth between the penultimate and ultimate segment > endpoints. > > 2) To unburden the ultimate segment endpoint from the task of > processing the SRH > > 3) To unburden the ultimate segment endpoint from the task of > removing the SRH > > > > The first argument is weak. Routing headers should not be so large that > the bandwidth they consume is an issue. > > > > The second argument is also weak. Once the ultimate segment endpoint has > examined the Segments Left field, it can ignore the SRH. The ultimate > segment endpoint must be SRv6-aware, because it must process the SID in t= he > IPv6 destination address field. Given that the ultimate segment endpoint = is > SRv6 aware, it should be able to process the SRH on the fast path. > > > > The third argument is even weaker. The ultimate segment endpoint: > > - Has to remove the IPv6 tunnel header, anyway > > - Being closer to the edge, may be less heavily loaded than the > penultimate segment endpoint. > > > > Can anyone articulate a better justification for PSP? If not, why test th= e > limits of RFC 8200 over it? > > > > > Ron > > > > > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > *From:* spring *On Behalf Of *Andrew Alston > *Sent:* Monday, February 24, 2020 5:06 AM > *To:* Mark Smith ; Sander Steffann < > sander@steffann.nl> > *Cc:* SPRING WG ; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) 40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> > *Subject:* Re: [spring] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt > > > > I agree with the sentiments expressed below > > > > Andrew > > > > > > *From:* spring *On Behalf Of *Mark Smith > *Sent:* Monday, 24 February 2020 00:50 > *To:* Sander Steffann > *Cc:* SPRING WG ; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) < > pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> > *Subject:* Re: [spring] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt > > > > > > On Mon, 24 Feb 2020, 07:47 Sander Steffann, wrote: > > Hi, > > > We have published a new update to > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming. This revision simplifies the > counters as per [1], clarifies the upper layer header processing as per [= 2] > and removes the reference to the OAM draft [3]. > > I still oppose the segment popping flavours in section 4.16 without > updating RFC8200. > > > > I would expect that defying Internet Standard 86/RFC8200 means this ID > needs to have Experimental rather than Standards Track status. > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > Sander > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > -- > > Gyan Mishra > > Network Engineering & Technology > > Verizon > > Silver Spring, MD 20904 > > Phone: 301 502-1347 > > Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com > > > > > --=20 Gyan Mishra Network Engineering & Technology Verizon Silver Spring, MD 20904 Phone: 301 502-1347 Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com --000000000000983023059f897845 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

In-line response=C2=A0


On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 10:16 AM Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)= <pcamaril@cisco.com> wrote= :

Gyan,

=C2=A0

As I (and other WG members) hav= e explained in the past, PSP is not trying to provide any feature parity wi= th MPLS.

=C2=A0

It enables new use-cases that have been provid= ed by other members in the list. [1], [2] and [5].

From operational perspective it is not complex= as explained in [3].

There is substantial benefit. Four operators h= ave deployed PSP, which proves the benefit.

And additionally o= perators have expressed their value in [4] and [5].

=C2=A0

[1].- https://mail= archive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/wTLJQkzC6xwSNPbhB84VH0mLXx0

=

(1) reduce the load of final destination. This benefit can= be notable for the following sub reasons.
I know=
 you say you are not trying to create any feature parity with MPLS however =
by using PSP is similar to PHP in that you are trying to offload processing=
 on the end X node in which could be any node in the path and not just the =
PHP node. =C2=A0
With SRv6 the loophole created h=
ere is that at each hop along the traffic engineered path, the SID in the S=
L is popped and copied to the DA hop by hop - so each hop being a single ho=
p End X SID instantiation, the PSP function of SRH removal can now occur at=
 any node along the path and not just the MPLS style one hop prior to ultim=
ate hop egress PE node.=C2=A0

So PSP is being leveraged to be used at any end X and not just =
the final destination.  This makes the situation worse for RFC 8200 violati=
ons.
What would be the use case where you would n=
eed to pop the SRH=C2=A0early at an End X node that is not the final destin=
ation.  The SL has to be 0 to pop the SRH.  Please correct me then if the P=
SP function can only occur at the final destination one hop prior PHP node.=
 
(1.1) final destination tends to have heavy loa=
d. It need to handle all the EHs and do the delivery/demultiplex the packet=
 to the right overlay service.
Does the egress PE=
 really have a heavy load with modern hardware.
H=
ow is the PSP function with modern hardware any more difficult popping the =
SRH on the final destination node then with MPLS explicit null UHP.
Other then the 6in6 topmost SRv6 encapsulation that is p= opped at the final destination which is different then MPLS 4 byte shim top= most, with the bottom stack labels being identical in both scenarios, is t= here really extra load on the final destination egress PE that is being sav= ed??
(1.2) example 1, the final destination may n=
eed to handle the DOH after the RH.
DOH would be =
set in the encapsulated packet in the customer payload that is tunneled 6in=
6 over the provider network. Doubtful that DOH would be set in the SP SRv6 =
closed domain 
(1.3) example 2, the final destina=
tion may need to do the assembly of fragmented packets.
In general almost across the board all providers set their MTU to 92=
16 jumbo so as to not have outer 6in6 SRv6 header fragmentation issues 
(1.4) example 3, the final destination may need to d=
o AH/ESP after the Fragmentation Header.
Just lik=
e 1.2 AH/ESP would be part of the customer payload encapsulated 
(1.5) example 4, the final destination may need to deliver =
the packet to the right overlay service.
In the S=
P network the packet is still forwarded hop by hop along the SRH traffic en=
gineered path to the prefix SID fec destination, which is always the final =
destination in the SL, when SL is 0 the USP USD deencapsulation occurs.  So=
 in my mind the overlay service would not ever be on an end DT transit node=
 P router and would always sit on an egress PE router. 
Am I missing something?
(2) support the in=
cremental deployment when final destination(s) do not process/recognize SRH=
. This benefit can be notable for the following sub reasons.
This is during interim migration, however I believe the best pr=
actice for SRv6 brown field is to have the PEs SRv6 capable and the Ps IPv6=
 capable for End DT x transit node forwarding only - which P routers should=
 adhere strictly to RFC 8200 and should never have to perform or technicall=
y even have to perform the PSP function.
In most =
SP networks the PEs are protocol and feature rich and have the latest code =
and=C2=A0hardware where the P routers =E2=80=9CBGP free=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9Cp=
im free=E2=80=9D core - only perform label swapping in MPLS world and SR wo=
rld only label stacking.
(2.1) A core router may =
(fan-out) connected with a big number of low-end routers that do not suppor=
t SRH but support tunnel-end/service-demultiplex function of SRv6.
Please elaborate on this scenario

For example in SRv6-based L3VPN service scenario, The ing= ress PE within SRv6-enabled domain can utilize SR-TE policy to enable TE-pa= th function when encapsulating and transiting L3VPN traffic, The Ingress PE= push on customer packets with SID list representing SR-TE policy plus END.= DT4 as last SRv6 SID in SRH; So I think, each flavor of PSP/USP/USD can b= e designed to perform in related SRv6 endpoint. Imaging the PSP, the penult= imate Endpoint can perform PSP, e.g. copy the last SID (END.DT4) of SRH to = destination field of IPv6 header and POP the SRH, then forwarding it toward= egress PE identified by DA.
This comment is w= hat lead me to believe my comment in (1) then the PSP is being leveraged as= a loophole to be able to perform the PSP function at any node and pop the = SRH.

In thinking about t= his it does not make sense at all.

My thoughts are that the SRv6 source node ingress PE adds the SR= H, and the final destination node egress PE pops the SRH.=C2=A0 I don=E2=80= =99t understand why any P node along the path would ever pop the SRH if you= have not made it yet to the final destination. =C2=A0
Also in the SRv6 programming PSP psuedocode it states the SL=3D0 has to = be satisfied =E2=80=94 so if you are on any P router and not at the final d= estination prefix SID FEC, =C2=A0then you are doing the standard IPv6 data = plane forwarding and end dt x node and copying hop by hop the SID to the DA= .=C2=A0 Since the P routers are doing standard IPv6 forwarding they must co= mply with RFC8200.

Am I = missing something?

> Removing bytes (aor adding bytes) from arbitrary posi= tions in the middle of a packet is generally any extremely painful operatio= n. Why would we want a standard that mandated such an operation? Savings = a few bytes on SR hop (sure, several IP router hops) seems a small benefit = for such a cost. >=C2=A0
I agree that not much savings adding t=
he PSP function just to POP the SRH at an end x node=20

That sounds weird comment for me. We have deployed that type of function wi=
th no compromise in terms of of both performance and operation within reaso=
nable and affordable cost.


<= pre class=3D"wordwrap" style=3D"box-sizing:border-box;font-family:SFMono-Re= gular,Menlo,Monaco,Consolas,"Liberation Mono","Courier New&q= uot;,monospace;font-size:12.25px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:1rem;overflow= :auto;color:rgb(33,37,41);white-space:pre-wrap;word-wrap:normal;word-break:= normal;padding:0px">As of the end of 2019, the SRv6 network consists of: - 1000 Cisco NCS 5500 routers - 1800 Iliad's Nodeboxes - The network services 4.5 million mobile subscribers (as of Q3 2019) - The network is carrying 300 Gbps of commercial traffic at peak hours - It is expected to grow to more than 4000 Nodeboxes in 2020. The following SRv6 features have been deployed: - A Segment Routing Header based data plane - End (PSP), End.X (PSP), End.DT4, T.Encaps.Red, T.Insert.Red functions - BGP VPN SRv6 extensions - ISIS SRv6 extensions - SRH-based Topology Independent (TI-LFA) Fast Reroute mechanisms - Support for ping and traceroute
Is this cust= omer doing PSP in end x meaning any transit P router end dt x node?

If so in those cases where the = SRH is popped on end x node, was their a service overlay or SFC at the P no= de which was the reason to pop the SRH early on a transit P node.

PSP allows us to bring SRv6 to legacy PE devices that are = not capable of processing the SRH in the dataplane, but are capable of supp= orting SRv6 in the control plane. =20 See this example: I am streaming traffic from a server to a customer; The ingress PE (near the server) encapsulates the packet and adds an SRH wi= th a low-latency list of segments; The penultimate node in the SRH executes PSP; The egress PE (near the customer) decapsulates the IPv6 header and forwards= the inner packet to the customer. =20 We can include SLA unidirectionally from the server to the customer even th= ough that the egress PE has a legacy ASIC. Legacy equipment are a reality a= nd are not easy to replace, hence interoperability with brownfield is key f= or any innovative approach.

This is during migration however I believe th=
e best practice for SRv6 brown field is to have the PEs SRv6 capable and th=
e Ps IPv6 capable for End DT x transit node forwarding only - which P route=
rs should adhere strictly to RFC 8200 and should never have to perform or t=
echnically even have to perform the PSP function.
In most SP networks the PEs are proto=
col and feature rich and have the latest code and=C2=A0hardware where the P=
 routers =E2=80=9CBGP free=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9Cpim free=E2=80=9D only perform=
 label swapping in MPLS world and SR world only label stacking.

<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

=C2=A0

I don&= #39;t see the point of starting a new thread from zero that discusses the s= ame thing.

=C2=A0

Cheers,

Pablo.

=

=C2=A0

From: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.c= om>
Date: Tuesday, 25 February 2020 at 00:35
To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
Cc: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>, SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming-10.txt

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

PSP has historical cont= ext from PHP ( Penultimate Hop POP) in the MPLS world. =C2=A0=

=C2=A0

20+ years ago when MPLS= we originally developed the concept of PHP implicit null reserved label va= lue 0 was done to offload the burden of the egress PE FEC destination to po= p the entire label stack before forwarding the native IP packet to the CE.

=C2=A0

Hardware these days for= the last 15 years or so are so advanced that the idea that you are saving = processing on the egress PE has not existed for a long time. =C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0

Even =C2=A0back then in= both SP and enterprise space there were issues that arise related to PHB Q= OS egress queuing, =C2=A0that occurs on the PHP node that had the MPLS shim= popped, it cannot schedule on the topmost label via exp provider markings done on the ingress PE upon label imposition. = =C2=A0

=C2=A0

A workaround to this is= sue was to set explicit null label value 0 and use pipe or uniform mode to = tunnel the customer payload to the egress PE FEC destination called UHP ult= imate hop node with topmost label intact. =C2=A0

=C2=A0

The concept of implicit= null PHP concept did not bode well in the MPLS world so I don=E2=80=99t se= e why that feature parity would be added to a next gen protocol that would = be the future MPLS replacement.

=C2=A0

I agree with taking som= e of the good features and knobs from MPLS, but why take the ones like impl= icit null with is really an archaic feature.

=C2=A0

My 2 cents

=C2=A0

Gyan

=C2=A0

On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at= 5:38 PM Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> = wrote:

Ron,

=C2=A0

This is the 5th=C2=A0= time that we have this discussion in the past five months.

=C2=A0

I consider those three questions= as closed based on the previous discussion.

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg= /spring/yRkDJlXd71k0VUqagM3D77vYcFI/

=C2=A0

Cheers,

Pablo.

=C2=A0

From: Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
Date: Monday, 24 February 2020 at 16:27
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alsto= n@liquidtelecom.com= >, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com= >, Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>, "Pablo Camarillo (pcama= ril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming-10.txt

=C2=A0

Folks,

=C2=A0

We may need to ask the following questions:

=C2=A0

1)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Does PSP violate letter of RFC 8200?

2)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Does PSP violate the spirit of RFC 8200?

3)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Is PSP a good idea?

=C2=A0

The 6man WG, and not SPRING, should answer the first two questions. So I wi= ll avoid them an explore the third.

=C2=A0

At first glance, PSP adds no value. Once Segments Left has been decremented= to 0, the Routing header becomes a NOOP. So why bother to remove it? I see= the following arguments:

=C2=A0

1)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 To save bandwidth between the penultimate and ultimate segment endpo= ints.

2)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 To unburden the ultimate segment endpoint from the task of processin= g the SRH

3)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 To unburden the ultimate segment endpoint from the task of removing = the SRH

=C2=A0

The first argument is weak. Routing headers should not be so large that the= bandwidth they consume is an issue.

=C2=A0

The second argument is also weak. Once the ultimate segment endpoint has ex= amined the Segments Left field, it can ignore the SRH. The ultimate segment= endpoint must be SRv6-aware, because it must process the SID in the IPv6 d= estination address field. Given that the ultimate segment endpoint is SRv6 aware, it should be able to pro= cess the SRH on the fast path.

=C2=A0

The third argument is even weaker. The ultimate segment endpoint:

-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Has to remove the IPv6 tunnel header, anyway

-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Being closer to the edge, may be less heavily loaded than the penult= imate segment endpoint.

=C2=A0

Can anyone articulate a better justification for PSP? If not, why test the = limits of RFC 8200 over it?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Ron

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Juniper Business Use Only

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Andrew Alston
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 5:06 AM
To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>; Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmar= c.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming-10.txt

=C2=A0

I agree with the sentiments expressed below

=C2=A0

Andrew

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Mark Smith
Sent: Monday, 24 February 2020 00:50
To: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril=3D40cis= co.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming-10.txt

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Mon, 24 Feb 2020, 07:47 Sander Steffann, <sander@steffann.nl> wrote:

Hi,

> We have published a new update to draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-progr= amming. This revision simplifies the counters as per [1], clarifies the upp= er layer header processing as per [2] and removes the reference to the OAM = draft [3].

I still oppose the segment popping flavours in section 4.16 without updatin= g RFC8200.

=C2=A0

I would expect that defying Internet Standard 86/RFC8200 means this ID need= s to have Experimental rather than Standards Track status.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0


Cheers,
Sander

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spr= ing

_______________________= ________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

--

Gyan=C2=A0 Mishra

Network Engineering & Technology=C2=A0

Verizon=C2=A0

Silver Spring, MD 20904

Phone: 301 502-1347

Email: gyan.s.mishra@ve= rizon.com

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

--
<= div dir=3D"ltr">

Gyan= =C2=A0 Mishra

Network Engineering & Technology= =C2=A0

Verizon=C2=A0

Silver Spring, MD 20= 904

Phone: 301 502-1347

<= font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.= com



--000000000000983023059f897845-- From nobody Wed Feb 26 23:52:10 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CBA93A148A for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 23:52:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NO_DNS_FOR_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lapishills-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gt09AHOICOGo for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 23:52:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x42c.google.com (mail-wr1-x42c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C49C93A1487 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 23:52:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x42c.google.com with SMTP id l5so2067679wrx.4 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 23:52:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lapishills-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=CWI1B+xT7kdl1jrnPfYPdENAJSsCEfgRJwP6ku1PVfg=; b=qsHBgDBx9dNxgItM4XaQnaZ3pCvT1MwIurOGlRdsAW10WfDy08n+QjXGUtOmVmJxkZ J19a1/QxQqHDo2WHMPJ1m8nMpBpir+w7ny7bKJGTwH96MOZxAbZt3gBKYVaDBrdnZUcH VetQY4RuJGmO/rKVmsvkgSOIFtLUwWDPjiHnsuoFhxvZa1gg2wp1zXxue5tIsRwtuQEp VGaQ/hADRo3A77wjhTwP3QMT6D2n40jktngsKJeoDkNNZ+uR/Mk4hQCa0Q7cpMxhpGV7 WykD/fdfRmfQNU+r4fYW2NxAuaKtd2rTDa6MCI7ePL346RJUIB7fdEN8UF1Ts2pqMAjb 1MZA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=CWI1B+xT7kdl1jrnPfYPdENAJSsCEfgRJwP6ku1PVfg=; b=dJM/1mDzERPaLU7B0E2dO2M2qCWMfn8AqWx1CWwHhCmozSJBUVuLLatNNkTXZGcvDN o7wRRmM/wTOnRv7TIn73mvbXF1/zePOsrL3BqZBoXHRmtKuLsjk9aXYkykilQhpqUPJf LtTrofN971xc8GlRutI/0caSaDnv7Q/TxbDLh3LOLmq3c7Jpg0+R2GZ+mc+lQ2Ekzp6f X0Uzy3fNlQA/zFzHfmHwz64u/JlZ3UjUQH7MYKpOTrQwBsMehEeLA0IcGHDpMB+WIS0t l8I1e6/adE0IYlgsQfIh8z7rdrzuECgIwX6X5jlZWC8+/1AXvVLqqWHShw3Ghkyt8Tst IXAQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWRg9O+jfrdSqIQTFMYvT+bYoO/8vJgVwoCDeCIM95be9hU/Qrx a/JSz256B2ebZh7+tsghFlWLQU0hFAtBJ6WjDjkWsA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy3tRBmJfCltOCpLCKAb+ONQK4zlUy50k63FiqC1SEoS8dxJXef5ZShkBQrhFbrxjt7Nt8oliaqs/agIqe2kdY= X-Received: by 2002:adf:ea42:: with SMTP id j2mr3142012wrn.377.1582789923452; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 23:52:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5D218BFB-0D6F-4F7D-858F-B571A67DC47F@leddy.net> <8abfd5a1-e806-3598-c389-8214b3d09447@si6networks.com> In-Reply-To: <8abfd5a1-e806-3598-c389-8214b3d09447@si6networks.com> From: Dirk Steinberg Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 09:51:56 +0200 Message-ID: To: Fernando Gont Cc: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" , Warren Kumari , John Leddy , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden , "Zafar Ali (zali)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000245a44059f89ff55" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 07:52:09 -0000 --000000000000245a44059f89ff55 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 1:45 AM Fernando Gont wrote: > Hello, Eric, > > On 26/2/20 20:18, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote: > > Writing this without any hat, > > > > Please note that on the logical side, it still have to be "proven" that > this idea is strictly forbidden by RFC 8200. > > Here's the proof part: > > 1) Isn't IPv6 end to end? > > 2) How do core components of IPv6, such as AH and PMTUD work in the > present of intermediate nodes that can add and/or remove arbitrary > extension headers? > > It should be clear from the above that EH insertion/deletion is forbidden. > As I already explained to you this is not true. The wording of RFC8200 clearly allows this. The node addresses by the DA of the packet can do this. I understand that you would like to modify the wording of RFC8200 to make your point true but it simply is not. Repeating a false statement does not make it true. Cheers Dirk > Since this topic has been brought up again and again, I have submitted > an errata to RFC8200 which clarifies the intended behaviour: > * https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5933 > > (that's what Errata's are for, after all... and it should be clear that > the EH processing part, overall, needs improvements). > > Thanks! > > Cheers, > -- > Fernando Gont > SI6 Networks > e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com > PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --000000000000245a44059f89ff55 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 1:45 AM Ferna= ndo Gont <fgont@si6networks.com= > wrote:
= Hello, Eric,

On 26/2/20 20:18, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote:
> Writing this without any hat,
>
> Please note that on the logical side, it still have to be "proven= " that this idea is strictly forbidden by RFC 8200.

Here's the proof part:

1) Isn't IPv6 end to end?

2) How do core components of IPv6, such as AH and PMTUD work in the
present of intermediate nodes that can add and/or remove arbitrary
extension headers?

It should be clear from the above that EH insertion/deletion is forbidden.<= br>

As I already explained to you this= is not true.
The wording of RFC8200 clearly allows this.
The node addresses by the DA of the packet can do this.
<= /div>
I understand that you would like to modify the wording of= =C2=A0
RFC8200 to make your point true but it simply is not.
Repeating a false statement does not make it true.

Cheers
Dirk
=C2=A0
Since this topic has been brought up again and again, I have submitted
an errata to RFC8200 which clarifies the intended behaviour:
* https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5933

(that's what Errata's are for, after all... and it should be clear = that
the EH processing part, overall, needs improvements).

Thanks!

Cheers,
--
Fernando Gont
SI6 Networks
e-mail: fgont@si= 6networks.com
PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492




_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
--000000000000245a44059f89ff55-- From nobody Thu Feb 27 00:06:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 618DD3A14CD; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 00:06:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tMCkLcCr4Oz4; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 00:06:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9070C3A14CC; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 00:06:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (unknown [181.45.84.85]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 61DCB8051F; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 09:05:50 +0100 (CET) To: Dirk Steinberg Cc: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" , Warren Kumari , John Leddy , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden , "Zafar Ali (zali)" References: <5D218BFB-0D6F-4F7D-858F-B571A67DC47F@leddy.net> <8abfd5a1-e806-3598-c389-8214b3d09447@si6networks.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <3674ad2d-ea6e-5a42-b444-eca1cfb0974a@si6networks.com> Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 05:05:30 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:06:02 -0000 On 27/2/20 04:51, Dirk Steinberg wrote: > > > On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 1:45 AM Fernando Gont > wrote: > > Hello, Eric, > > On 26/2/20 20:18, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote: > > Writing this without any hat, > > > > Please note that on the logical side, it still have to be > "proven" that this idea is strictly forbidden by RFC 8200. > > Here's the proof part: > > 1) Isn't IPv6 end to end? > > 2) How do core components of IPv6, such as AH and PMTUD work in the > present of intermediate nodes that can add and/or remove arbitrary > extension headers? > > It should be clear from the above that EH insertion/deletion is > forbidden. > > > As I already explained to you this is not true. > The wording of RFC8200 clearly allows this. > The node addresses by the DA of the packet can do this. > I understand that you would like to modify the wording of > RFC8200 to make your point true but it simply is not. > Repeating a false statement does not make it true. Please answer the questions I've asked, and you'll get the response: IPv6 is end to end, and does not support header insertion or deletion en-route to the final destination. It would break core IPv6 components such as PMTUD and AH. If you find that the wording in RFC8200 should be improved, so be it: we already have to improve it from RFC2460, and it seems you still trying to find ways to circumvent the spec. If the spec warrants a *clarification*, so be it: we already did it from RFC2460, we did it for RFC8200 for the fragmentation part, and we may also have to do it for EH processing (and not only for this issue). I have given it a shot here: https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5933 That's what erratas are for. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Thu Feb 27 00:14:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4959D3A14F0; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 00:14:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 54zV7A1Dz89G; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 00:14:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB8DF3A14EF; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 00:14:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (unknown [181.45.84.85]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 16A5B8286A; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 09:14:26 +0100 (CET) To: Dirk Steinberg Cc: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, John Leddy , Bob Hinden , "Zafar Ali (zali)" , Warren Kumari References: <5D218BFB-0D6F-4F7D-858F-B571A67DC47F@leddy.net> <8abfd5a1-e806-3598-c389-8214b3d09447@si6networks.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <1ad33480-c296-5b76-5410-d8b57d16c478@si6networks.com> Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 05:14:17 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:14:32 -0000 On 27/2/20 04:51, Dirk Steinberg wrote: > > > On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 1:45 AM Fernando Gont > wrote: > > Hello, Eric, > > On 26/2/20 20:18, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote: > > Writing this without any hat, > > > > Please note that on the logical side, it still have to be > "proven" that this idea is strictly forbidden by RFC 8200. > > Here's the proof part: > > 1) Isn't IPv6 end to end? > > 2) How do core components of IPv6, such as AH and PMTUD work in the > present of intermediate nodes that can add and/or remove arbitrary > extension headers? > > It should be clear from the above that EH insertion/deletion is > forbidden. > > > As I already explained to you this is not true. > The wording of RFC8200 clearly allows this. > The node addresses by the DA of the packet can do this. FWIW, this is not even true for PSP. Brian raised this so many times already... but it looks like the procedure is busted anyway. You claim IPv6 behavior that never existed, you ignore objections, and a dozen of folks post "+1" as if that meant the issues raised had been addressed. I have asked numerous times the same questions I asked above, and they have never been answered -- because we all know they make the rest obvious. But go ahead. I'll appeal or escalate if necessary. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Thu Feb 27 00:17:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 973483A0FCB; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 00:17:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=telekom.de Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with 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b=uePO6al2SAwLQ2zmVvh2pSJoM0YLuCTkseq06p/gTl6yzRhwr1RlFgsasFkoytzk/4 0sOiyVE/+pBasTUxLMxOhnLgJeyogFty9lv0ADyOJYAIa1XJ1Awm5o83xcPEjbJl1s6u Z/BtuNkr4BpcVuInNTWm2LT3HVhn3GjkOkxPOKx3nxEgZAvvEzW5QnJmflZ3BCulMzfR BjiALTD7AjkjeUXaFDT79HNNBIWqPO7LTs5tMDQ7Byol7Pnvcj2Yo1OAHWLxJ6Qb9Bxp VPDDmh+NwukcC+1hkwkkMy5oMzrLSuocNGR5akvpHAgcO/GaePqh98H4MkUfHVDze5ZR O3zw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUTifVlDPk65RZDhkJpHU3ALv4e45ilkIZ32RmA4YJ3L7dNHojA xipEwgjncgKEMPAzkrTJid7L2FDbRY2Ospa90KU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzQFcBpXN3ZoSCpYq/2/qoJrU7Y15hWJtT2wTdgqy7eFj+39l5hdnatWtoK7hZvcghoPA1a56LKu8P2qtz+iIk= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:99c:: with SMTP id a28mr2286979oic.164.1582791809676; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 00:23:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5D218BFB-0D6F-4F7D-858F-B571A67DC47F@leddy.net> <8abfd5a1-e806-3598-c389-8214b3d09447@si6networks.com> In-Reply-To: From: Mark Smith Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 19:23:03 +1100 Message-ID: To: Dirk Steinberg Cc: Fernando Gont , "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, John Leddy , Bob Hinden , "Zafar Ali (zali)" , Warren Kumari Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:23:32 -0000 On Thu, 27 Feb 2020 at 18:52, Dirk Steinberg wrote: > > > > On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 1:45 AM Fernando Gont wrote: >> >> Hello, Eric, >> >> On 26/2/20 20:18, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote: >> > Writing this without any hat, >> > >> > Please note that on the logical side, it still have to be "proven" that this idea is strictly forbidden by RFC 8200. >> >> Here's the proof part: >> >> 1) Isn't IPv6 end to end? >> >> 2) How do core components of IPv6, such as AH and PMTUD work in the >> present of intermediate nodes that can add and/or remove arbitrary >> extension headers? >> >> It should be clear from the above that EH insertion/deletion is forbidden. > > > As I already explained to you this is not true. > The wording of RFC8200 clearly allows this. > The node addresses by the DA of the packet can do this. Can you quote this text please? Can you also explain why AH considers the fields necessary to do this - the Next Header and Payload Length - immutable, and would consider such packet modification within the network to be an attack? > I understand that you would like to modify the wording of > RFC8200 to make your point true but it simply is not. > Repeating a false statement does not make it true. > > Cheers > Dirk > >> >> Since this topic has been brought up again and again, I have submitted >> an errata to RFC8200 which clarifies the intended behaviour: >> * https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5933 >> >> (that's what Errata's are for, after all... and it should be clear that >> the EH processing part, overall, needs improvements). >> >> Thanks! >> >> Cheers, >> -- >> Fernando Gont >> SI6 Networks >> e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com >> PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring From nobody Thu Feb 27 00:41:26 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 836793A1544; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:41:25 -0000 Fernando, > -----Original Message----- > From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fernando Gont > Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2020 12:45 AM >=20 > Hello, Eric, >=20 > On 26/2/20 20:18, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote: > > Writing this without any hat, > > > > Please note that on the logical side, it still have to be "proven" that= this idea is strictly forbidden by RFC 8200. >=20 > Here's the proof part: >=20 > 1) Isn't IPv6 end to end? >=20 > 2) How do core components of IPv6, such as AH and PMTUD work in the > present of intermediate nodes that can add and/or remove arbitrary > extension headers? >=20 > It should be clear from the above that EH insertion/deletion is forbidden. This draft does not propose that intermediate node add extension header.=20 - If this is not clear to you, please read the draft. - If it's clear, please let's stick to technical comment on _this_ draft. = Bringing irrelevant points to the discussion is really not helping (both th= e discussion and the argument). This draft does not propose that intermediate node add/or remove arbitrary = extension header. This draft, and more specifically the PSP flavor [1], is about removing the= SRH header by an SR EndPoint. - with regards to PMTUD, can you clarify how reducing the size of the packe= t break PMTUD? And if there is an impact, let's remember that this is the s= ource of the packet which instruct the SR EndPoint to remove the SRH.=20 - with regards to AH, the SRH specification explicitly states that the use = of SRH with AH by an SR source node is _not_ defined [2]. I don't think you= can break something which is not working/defined. That been said, as an in= dividual contributor, I think the PSP section should explicitly raise that = point. [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-= 10#section-4.16.1 [2] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26#s= ection-7.5 > Since this topic has been brought up again and again, I have submitted > an errata to RFC8200 which clarifies the intended behaviour: > * https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5933 >=20 > (that's what Errata's are for, after all... and it should be clear that > the EH processing part, overall, needs improvements). Again, thank you for that, I believe this is useful. But while this errata is not reviewed and accepted, RFC 8200 stands as is. --Bruno =20 > Thanks! >=20 > Cheers, > -- > Fernando Gont > SI6 Networks > e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com > PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. From nobody Thu Feb 27 01:07:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0351E3A159D; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 01:07:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RfvAajaR9aJW; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 01:07:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1AEDB3A159C; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 01:07:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (unknown [181.45.84.85]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9D43180CD2; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 10:07:19 +0100 (CET) To: bruno.decraene@orange.com, "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" , Warren Kumari , John Leddy Cc: SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden , "Zafar Ali (zali)" References: <5D218BFB-0D6F-4F7D-858F-B571A67DC47F@leddy.net> <8abfd5a1-e806-3598-c389-8214b3d09447@si6networks.com> <10919_1582792881_5E5780B1_10919_216_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DB590F@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 06:07:14 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <10919_1582792881_5E5780B1_10919_216_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DB590F@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 09:07:28 -0000 Bruno, On 27/2/20 05:41, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote: > Fernando, > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fernando Gont >> Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2020 12:45 AM >> >> Hello, Eric, >> >> On 26/2/20 20:18, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote: >>> Writing this without any hat, >>> >>> Please note that on the logical side, it still have to be "proven" that this idea is strictly forbidden by RFC 8200. >> >> Here's the proof part: >> >> 1) Isn't IPv6 end to end? >> >> 2) How do core components of IPv6, such as AH and PMTUD work in the >> present of intermediate nodes that can add and/or remove arbitrary >> extension headers? >> >> It should be clear from the above that EH insertion/deletion is forbidden. > > This draft does not propose that intermediate node add extension header. > - If this is not clear to you, please read the draft. What is this:???? 4.16.1. PSP: Penultimate Segment Pop of the SRH The SRH processing of the End, End.X and End.T behaviors are modified: after the instruction "S14. Update IPv6 DA with Segment List[Segments Left]" is executed, the following instructions must be executed as well: S14.1. If (Segments Left == 0) { S14.2. Update the Next Header field in the preceding header to the Next Header value of the SRH S14.3. Decrease the IPv6 header Payload Length by the Hdr Ext Len value of the SRH S14.4. Remove the SRH from the IPv6 extension header chain S14.5. } Isn't this having the penultimate segment fo a packet removing an extension header for a packet whose Destination Address is not even it's own? Doesn't this read a bit as "the router was the DA of the packet, after you change the DA to that of the next waypoint, if you realize Segments Left == 0, remove the SRH"? (which does not even comply with the now infamous "interpretation" of RFC8200 that if you are the DA, you can add/remove EHs. > - If it's clear, please let's stick to technical comment on _this_ draft. Bringing irrelevant points to the discussion is really not helping (both the discussion and the argument). > > This draft does not propose that intermediate node add/or remove arbitrary extension header. > > This draft, and more specifically the PSP flavor [1], is about removing the SRH header by an SR EndPoint. Seriously? > - with regards to PMTUD, can you clarify how reducing the size of the packet break PMTUD? And if there is an impact, let's remember that this is the source of the packet which instruct the SR EndPoint to remove the SRH. > - with regards to AH, the SRH specification explicitly states that the use of SRH with AH by an SR source node is _not_ defined [2]. Do you understand that AH should be usable for all IPv6 traffic? [....] >> (that's what Errata's are for, after all... and it should be clear that >> the EH processing part, overall, needs improvements). > > Again, thank you for that, I believe this is useful. > But while this errata is not reviewed and accepted, RFC 8200 stands as is. The errata is a clarification, not a change. Of course RFC8200 stands: EHs are not deleted or added en route to destination. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Thu Feb 27 01:30:46 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68C4E3A165A; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 01:30:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3mIWId46_bKN; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 01:30:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B8CB3A1658; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 01:30:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id A94F218F51A479202034; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 09:30:32 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEMA401-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.42) by lhreml702-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.43) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 09:30:31 +0000 Received: from DGGEMA524-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.7.84]) by DGGEMA401-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.42]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 17:30:20 +0800 From: "Maojianwei (Mao)" To: Lizhenbin , "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , 'SPRING WG List' CC: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming , "s.i.n.g.team.0810@gmail.com" Thread-Topic: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Index: AdXtUHCBczz/925MQSaI7w9wOHJRdg== 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Hi f= riends,

 

Inte= rnet standard is aimed to promote deployment and innovation, but not to be = a barrier.

 

Whil= e this WG LC has been extended again and again,

if w= e have reached an agreement that SRv6 can bring many advantages for our net= work in future,

we s= hould shelve the dispute and promote industry.

 

Mean= while, we can have a discussion in the future about how to resolve the prob= lem, bis 8200 or what else.

 

 

So, = I agree we close the WG LC now, and go ahead.

 

 

Chee= rs~

Mao<= o:p>

 

 

 

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Lizhenbin
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2020= =C4=EA2=D4= =C226=C8=D5 19:55
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG List' <spring@ietf.org>=
=B3=AD=CB=CD: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-= spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
=D6=F7=CC=E2: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-= spring-srv6-network-programming

 

Hi Bruno and WG,

The LC has lasted for almost 3 months = which greatly exceeds the expected 2 week. In the process all the comments = have been resolved while some issues is raised again and again with little value.

On the other hand, there have been mul= tiple commercial implementation and inter-op test and almost 20 deployments= for SRv6 which justify the solution proposed by the draft in practice.

 

We sincerely request to close the LC o= f the draft and move forward.

 

 

 

Best Regards,

Zhenbin (Robin)

 

 

From: bruno.decraene@orange.com = [mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.= com]
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2019 1:15 AM
To: 'SPRING WG List' <spring@i= etf.org>
Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-s= pring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@i= etf.org>
Subject: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

 

Hello SPRING,
 
This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last =
Call on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming [1].

 


Please read this document if you haven't read the=
 most recent version, and send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no late=
r than December 20.


 


You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment=
, but consider not duplicating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comm=
ents which are only spring specifics.


 


If you are raising a point which you expect will =
be specifically debated on the mailing list, consider using a specific emai=
l/thread for this point.


This may help avoiding that the thread become spe=
cific to this point and that other points get forgotten (or that the thread=
 get converted into parallel independent discussions)

 


Thank you,


Bruno


 


[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-=
ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-05


 


 


____________________________________________________=
_____________________________________________________________________<=
/o:p>


 


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a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces j=
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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a =
ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.


 


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Thank you.
--_000_6B803B308679F94FBD953ABEA5CCCCD701089509dggema524mbxchi_-- From nobody Thu Feb 27 01:38:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BA7C3A1681 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 01:38:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s5R8yrafqvfq for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 01:38:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x22b.google.com (mail-oi1-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 109223A167F for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 01:38:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x22b.google.com with SMTP id a142so2646300oii.7 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 01:38:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=78HUOwU0Pau0C7JZvr4rPqenbj4D8ejn3P8iLF8bsCw=; b=VT7lmMJ/leicUspBXNqaNdFMf1bXrOJegQF25XVosdkwVIQkY9Y7VBXUMpixM2Ubsq XZoM4CHtI+YpzyGcDiTW/G8oIC0zvZBb6aPRpVoUzc2zPlJCIO+0QUpwsQaSf8CA4Usw jGt0W0h/ey51uQppmW183lKxBo5lYnbli9FPrIBNgqQ92VjM0gdH65XrBHZXP76A4zKQ y63uU0xBLZb+lJbAkgOmgOiUP3SXrrGCovzf2yq7s+6/R0pRoVgUxK0S9GBJNmMSPSgv K9KvHuHOghswXTBlj/ZEgqcInJs096GlSp/0m94MNivddNcyDvnGehbB5pBWxaI33wF0 /9Tg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=78HUOwU0Pau0C7JZvr4rPqenbj4D8ejn3P8iLF8bsCw=; b=BH8uJPIj3NhouV991tTe//SZInPTCEW448TXqEsj4fSb3okkxzXoPDHB19uTn7eSE5 dGIsFUptzSM7Z+5xt5MdgLHNgF8XKhpbgvUwoMbZDgK7e+0vjBoSbsojftdXYN0oyKhi ramAelgH5A94RsAx+aNuN7S22hniRoTEC8UW/m90KTzmEYjfl9N2s67mBYXfyWWIaMHC qPsqfwCPNw51wEzCxCqmFzWniotUl3uUck4mggAPw+LtyRUDVwuW/e2+ZnyzAxQFskLI uZ6tLRsTz2HGuYCxUW87VBTTNHWZR4nqdl/SoXzB1TyAO7A6VUFZxUWW3lyF1BPC065m SLSg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWAYXe25nk3Z5cPHWdbxuK94VhUETbdD5dVY5o9iPk22886hIwJ +7EBWhwKEDFEPAIMLuMV3qACmV7Wi9kANh7RyPot9g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyJOUlsQhXJmd2mn5R/YGcwQKfLCunHKck+R/kOfD5AjxYnT9XLMjsIuKcMb7wsODw1kzC6TiV3NlQ3MO+7YDE= X-Received: by 2002:a54:4510:: with SMTP id l16mr2588571oil.70.1582796307203; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 01:38:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 10:38:17 +0100 Message-ID: To: Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de Cc: ippm-chairs@ietf.org, SPRING WG , ippm@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a491fe059f8b7b47" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Monitoring metric to detect and locate congestion X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 09:38:31 -0000 --000000000000a491fe059f8b7b47 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, As I mentioned in my first mail I am a big supporter of end to end path measurement - mainly have been focusing on hop by hop timestamping approach. So my comments were not really to discourage in any way end to end path probing - it is extremely useful. They were just to see your point of view on alternative options just for the specific goal here - congestion detection. Will be watching how your proposal evolves with interest ! Cheers, R. On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 9:17 AM wrote: > Hi Robert, > > > > regarding scalability, I hope the difference between our positions is jus= t > whether it=E2=80=99s a router or a dedicated CPE. I don=E2=80=99t promote= deploying 20k PCs > (I hope to promote a metric to replace them). I prefer the dedicated CPE, > but routers do as well. > > > > The telemetry threshold might be an option too, if congestion is to be > detected. In September last year, we had to replace a line card at a > production router, whose ingress port hardware was corrupted. There were = no > drops, just random delay variations, which showed in our performance > measurement system. I wonder whether problems like that can be detected b= y > evaluating telemetry. > > Further, telemetry needs to work reliable if the router hardware is busy > dealing with heavy loads (i.e., telemetry must be sufficiently privileged= ). > External measurements on forwarding layer don=E2=80=99t rely on router in= ternal > processing resources. > > > > Regards, > > > > Ruediger > > > > > > *Von:* Robert Raszuk > *Gesendet:* Mittwoch, 26. Februar 2020 14:19 > *An:* Geib, R=C3=BCdiger > *Cc:* ippm-chairs@ietf.org; SPRING WG ; ippm@ietf.org > *Betreff:* Re: [spring] Monitoring metric to detect and locate congestion > > > > Hi, > > > > Two clarifications: > > > > [RG1] the measurements pass the routers on forwarding plane. > > > > Well if I have 20K CEs and would like to measure this end to end that > means it better run on a router ... I can not envision installing 20K new > PCs just for this. At min such end point it should run on a well designed > CPE as an LXC. > > > > [RG1] Up to now, the conditions in Deutsche Telekom=E2=80=99s backbone ne= twork > require a careful design of router probing interval and counters to be > read. > > > > Sure. I actually had in mind telemetry push model where you only get > notified to yr monitoring station when applied queue threshold is crossed= . > Very little mgmt traffic in the network limited to only information which > is important. > > > > I know some vendors resist to locally (at LC or local RE) apply filtering > to telemetry streaming but this is IMHO just sick approach. > > > > Thx, > > R. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 12:01 PM wrote: > > Hi Robert, > > > > Thanks, my replies in line marked [RG1] > > > > I have read your draft and presentation with interest as I am a > big supporter and in some lab trials of end to end network path probing. > > > > Few comments, observations, questions: > > > > You are essentially measuring and comparing delay across N paths > traversing known network topology (I love "network tomography" name !) > > > > [RG1] it=E2=80=99s telemetry with a constrained set up, but the term does= n=E2=80=99t > appear in the draft yet=E2=80=A6that can be changed. > > > > ------ > > * First question - this will likely run on RE/RP and in some platforms > path between LC and RE/RP is completely deterministic and can take 10s or > 100s of ms locally in the router. So right here the proposal to compare > anything may not really work - unless the spec mandates that actually > timestamping is done in hardware on the receiving LC. Then CPU can proces= s > it when it has cycles. > > > > [RG1] the measurements pass the routers on forwarding plane. High-end > routers add variable processing latencies. It=E2=80=99s on a level of dou= ble or > lower triple digit [us] on Deutsche Telekom backbone routers. If a > dedicated sender receiver system is used, timestamping may be optimized f= or > the purpose. > > ------ > > > > * Second question is that congestion usually has a very transient > character ... You would need to be super lucky to find any congestion in > normal network using test probes of any sort. If you have interfaces alwa= ys > congested then just the queue depth time delta may not be visible in end = to > end measurements. > > > > [RG1] The probing frequency depends on the characteristics of congestion > the operator wants to be aware of. Unplanned events may cause changes in > measurement delays lasting for minutes or longer (congestion or hardware > issues). The duration of a reliably detectable =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D co= rrespond to the > measurement packet distance (I don=E2=80=99t intend to replace hello-exch= anges or > BFD by the metric). > > ------ > > > > * Third - why not simply look at the queue counters at each node ? Queue > depth, queue history, min, avg, max on a per interface basis offer tons o= f > information readily available. Why would anyone need to inject loops of > probe packets in known network to detect this ? And in black box unknown > networks this is not going to work as you would not know the network > topology in the first place. Likewise link down/up is already reflected i= n > your syslog via BFD and IGP alarms. I really do not think you need end to > end protocol to tell you that. > > > > [RG1] Up to now, the conditions in Deutsche Telekom=E2=80=99s backbone ne= twork > require a careful design of router probing interval and counters to be > read. The proposed metric allows to capture persistent issues impacting > forwarding. It points out, where these likely occur. An operator may then > have a closer look at an interface/router to analyse what=E2=80=99s going= on, using > the full arsenal of accessible information and tools. As unusual events > happen rarely, it may still be a fair question for which purpose linecard= - > and central processing cycles of routers are consumed. > > ------- > > + Thanks for catching the nit below.. > > > > Regards, Ruediger > > > > s/nodes L100 and L200 one one/nodes L100 and L200 on one/ > > > > :) > > > > Many thx, > > R. > > > > On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 8:55 AM wrote: > > Dear IPPM (and SPRING) participants, > > > > I=E2=80=99m solliciting interest in a new network monitoring metric which= allows > to detect and locate congested interfaces. Important properties are > > - Same scalability as ICMP ping in the sense one measurement relation > required per monitored connection > - Adds detection and location of congested interfaces as compared to > ICMP ping (otherwise measured metrics are compatible with ICMP ping) > - Requires Segment Routing (which means, measurement on forwarding > layer, no other interaction with passed routers =E2=80=93 in opposite = to ICMP ping) > - Active measurement (may be deployed using a single sender&receiver > or separate sender and receiver, Segment Routing allows for both optio= ns) > > > > I=E2=80=99d be happy to present the draft in Vancouver.. If there=E2=80= =99s community > interest. Please read and comment. > > > > You=E2=80=99ll find slides at > > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/slides-105-ippm-14-dra= ft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-00 > > > > Draft url: > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring/ > > > > Regards, > > > > Ruediger > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > --000000000000a491fe059f8b7b47 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

As I mentioned in my first mail I a= m a big supporter=C2=A0of end to end path measurement - mainly have been fo= cusing on hop by hop timestamping approach.=C2=A0

= So my comments were not really to discourage in any way end to end path pro= bing - it is extremely useful. They were just to see your point of view on = alternative options just for the specific goal here - congestion detection.= =C2=A0

Will be watching how your proposal evolves = with interest !

Cheers,
R.

On Thu, Feb 27,= 2020 at 9:17 AM <Ruediger.G= eib@telekom.de> wrote:

Hi Robert,

=C2=A0

regarding scalability, I hope the difference between= our positions is just whether it=E2=80=99s a router or a dedicated CPE. I = don=E2=80=99t promote deploying 20k PCs (I hope to promote a metric to repl= ace them). I prefer the dedicated CPE, but routers do as well.

=C2=A0

The telemetry threshold might be an option too, if c= ongestion is to be detected. In September last year, we had to replace a li= ne card at a production router, whose ingress port hardware was corrupted. = There were no drops, just random delay variations, which showed in our performance measurement system. I wonder w= hether problems like that can be detected by evaluating telemetry.

Further, telemetry needs to work reliable if the rou= ter hardware is busy dealing with heavy loads (i.e., telemetry must be suff= iciently privileged). External measurements on forwarding layer don=E2=80= =99t rely on router internal processing resources.

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Ruediger

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Von: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Februar 2020 14:19
An: Geib, R=C3=BCdiger <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de>
Cc: ippm-c= hairs@ietf.org; SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; ippm@ietf.org
Betreff: Re: [spring] Monitoring metric to detect and locate congest= ion

=C2=A0

Hi,

=C2=A0

Two clarifications:=C2=A0

=C2=A0

[RG1] the measurements pass the routers on forwardin= g plane.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Well if I have 20K CEs and would like to measure thi= s end to end that means it better run on a router ... I can not envision in= stalling 20K new PCs just for this. At min such end point it should run on = a well designed CPE as an LXC.=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

[RG1] Up to now, the conditions in Deutsche Telekom= =E2=80=99s backbone network require a careful design of router probing inte= rval and counters to be read.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Sure. I actually had in mind telemetry push model wh= ere you only get notified to yr monitoring station when applied queue thres= hold=C2=A0is crossed. Very little mgmt traffic in the network limited to on= ly information which is important.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I know some vendors resist to locally (at LC or loca= l RE) apply filtering to telemetry streaming but this is IMHO just sick app= roach.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Thx,

R.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 12:01 PM <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de= > wrote:

Hi Robert,

=C2=A0=

Thanks, my replies in line marked [RG1]

=C2=A0

I have read your draft=C2=A0and presentation with in= terest as I am a big=C2=A0supporter and in some lab trials=C2=A0 of end to = end network path probing.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Few comments, observations, questions:=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0

You are essentially measuring and comparing delay ac= ross N paths traversing known=C2=A0network topology (I love "network t= omography" name !)

=C2=A0

[RG1] it=E2=80=99s telemetry with a constrained set = up, but the term doesn=E2=80=99t appear in the draft yet=E2=80=A6that can b= e changed.

=C2=A0

------

* First question - this will likely run on RE/RP and= in some platforms path between LC and RE/RP is completely deterministic=C2= =A0and can take 10s or 100s of ms locally in the router. So right here the proposal to compare anything may not really work=C2=A0- = unless the spec mandates that actually timestamping is done in hardware on = the receiving LC. Then CPU can process it when it has cycles.=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0

[RG1] the measurements pass the routers on forwardin= g plane. High-end routers add variable processing latencies. It=E2=80=99s o= n a level of double or lower triple digit [us] on Deutsche Telekom backbone routers. If a dedicated sender receiver system is used, t= imestamping may be optimized for the purpose.

------

=C2=A0

* Second question is that congestion usually has a v= ery transient character ... You would need to be super lucky to find any co= ngestion=C2=A0in normal network using test probes of any sort. If you have interfaces always congested then just the queue depth ti= me delta may not be visible in end to end measurements.

=C2=A0

[RG1] The probing frequency depends on the character= istics of congestion the operator wants to be aware of. Unplanned events ma= y cause changes in measurement delays lasting for minutes or longer (congestion or hardware issues). The duration of a relia= bly detectable =E2=80=9Cevent=E2=80=9D correspond to the measurement packet= distance (I don=E2=80=99t intend to replace hello-exchanges or BFD by the = metric).

------=C2=A0

=C2=A0

* Third - why not simply look at the queue counters = at each node ? Queue depth, queue history, min, avg, max on a per interface= basis offer tons of information readily available. Why would anyone need to inject loops of probe packets in known network to= detect this ? And in black box unknown networks this is not going to work = as you would not know the network topology in the first place. Likewise lin= k down/up is already reflected in your syslog via BFD and IGP alarms. I really do not think you need end to = end protocol to tell you that.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

[RG1] Up to now, the conditions in Deutsche Telekom= =E2=80=99s backbone network require a careful design of router probing inte= rval and counters to be read. The proposed metric allows to capture persistent issues impacting forwarding. It points out, where these= likely occur. An operator may then have a closer look at an interface/rout= er to analyse what=E2=80=99s going on, using the full arsenal of accessible= information and tools. As unusual events happen rarely, it may still be a fair question for which purpose linecard-= and central processing cycles of routers are consumed.

-------

+=C2=A0Thanks for catching the nit below..=

=C2=A0

Regards, Ruediger

=C2=A0

s/nodes L100 and L= 200 one one/nodes L100 and L200 on one/=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

:)=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

Many thx,

R.

=C2=A0

On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 8:55 AM <Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de&= gt; wrote:

Dear IPPM (and SPRING) participant= s,

=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99m solliciting interest in a new network mo= nitoring metric which allows to detect and locate congested interfaces. Imp= ortant properties are

  • Same scalability as ICMP ping in the sense one measurement relation require= d per monitored connection
  • Adds detection and location of congested interfaces as compared to ICMP pin= g (otherwise measured metrics are compatible with ICMP ping)<= /li>
  • Requires Segment Routing (which means, measurement on forwarding layer, no = other interaction with passed routers =E2=80=93 in opposite to ICMP ping)
  • Active measurement (may be deployed using a single sender&receiver or s= eparate sender and receiver, Segment Routing allows for both options)

=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99d be happy to present the draft in Vancouv= er.. If there=E2=80=99s community interest. Please read and comment.=

=C2=A0

You=E2=80=99ll find slides at =C2=A0

=C2=A0

https://datatracker.= ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/slides-105-ippm-14-draft-geib-ippm-connectiv= ity-monitoring-00

=C2=A0

Draft url:

=C2=A0

https://datatracker.iet= f.org/doc/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring/

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Ruediger

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

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([2601:18b:300:36ee:7979:12c4:1a61:6e1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w21sm3059395qth.17.2020.02.27.02.27.26 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 27 Feb 2020 02:27:26 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-091A3FCC-4E50-40E2-9A72-4C974B7718DE Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ted Lemon Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 05:27:25 -0500 Message-Id: <6E7A3022-DEC7-4E35-9A56-0F708CD41180@fugue.com> References: <6B803B308679F94FBD953ABEA5CCCCD701089509@dggema524-mbx.china.huawei.com> Cc: Lizhenbin , "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming In-Reply-To: <6B803B308679F94FBD953ABEA5CCCCD701089509@dggema524-mbx.china.huawei.com> To: "Maojianwei (Mao)" X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (18A225a) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 10:27:39 -0000 --Apple-Mail-091A3FCC-4E50-40E2-9A72-4C974B7718DE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The IETF serves users, not =E2=80=9Cindustry=E2=80=9D. The IETF does not pr= omote. Our job is to make the internet work interoperably. Brian has raised a= n objection that could be answered, but has not been. It is inappropriate to= say that this document has passed last call.=20 In my experience, when it is hard to get consensus in situations like this i= t is because there is a wish to not address a concern that has been raised, n= ot because the concern could not be addressed or should not have been raised= . It may feel unreasonable, and like an imposition, but it is not. It is par= t of the process.=20 Rather than trying to steamroll over the objection, why not simply answer it= ? > On Feb 27, 2020, at 04:30, Maojianwei (Mao) wrote:= >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > Hi friends, > =20 > Internet standard is aimed to promote deployment and innovation, but not t= o be a barrier. > =20 > While this WG LC has been extended again and again, > if we have reached an agreement that SRv6 can bring many advantages for ou= r network in future, > we should shelve the dispute and promote industry. > =20 > Meanwhile, we can have a discussion in the future about how to resolve the= problem, bis 8200 or what else. > =20 > =20 > So, I agree we close the WG LC now, and go ahead. > =20 > =20 > Cheers~ > Mao > =20 > =20 > =20 > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB= =A3=E8=A1=A8 Lizhenbin > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2020=E5=B9=B42=E6=9C=8826=E6=97=A5 1= 9:55 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG List' <= spring@ietf.org> > =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programm= ing > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE:= WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming > =20 > Hi Bruno and WG, > The LC has lasted for almost 3 months which greatly exceeds the expected 2= week. In the process all the comments have been resolved while some issues i= s raised again and again with little value. > On the other hand, there have been multiple commercial implementation and i= nter-op test and almost 20 deployments for SRv6 which justify the solution p= roposed by the draft in practice. > =20 > We sincerely request to close the LC of the draft and move forward. > =20 > =20 > =20 > Best Regards, > Zhenbin (Robin) > =20 > =20 > From: bruno.decraene@orange.com [mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.com]=20 > Sent: Friday, December 06, 2019 1:15 AM > To: 'SPRING WG List' > Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming > Subject: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming > =20 > Hello SPRING, > =20 > This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-spring= -srv6-network-programming [1]. > =20 > Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent version, and= send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later than December 20. > =20 > You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not duplic= ating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which are only spring= specifics. > =20 > If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically debated o= n the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread for this point. > This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this point and t= hat other points get forgotten (or that the thread get converted into parall= el independent discussions) > =20 > Thank you, > Bruno > =20 > [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming= -05 > =20 > =20 > __________________________________________________________________________= _______________________________________________ > =20 > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confide= ntielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez rec= u ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages e= lectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou= falsifie. Merci. > =20 > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged in= formation that may be protected by law; > they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and del= ete this message and its attachments. > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been= modified, changed or falsified. > Thank you. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- --Apple-Mail-091A3FCC-4E50-40E2-9A72-4C974B7718DE Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The IETF serves users, not= =E2=80=9Cindustry=E2=80=9D.  The IETF does not promote. Our job is to m= ake the internet work interoperably. Brian has raised an objection that coul= d be answered, but has not been. It is inappropriate to say that this docume= nt has passed last call. 

In my experience, when it is hard to get consensus in situations like th= is it is because there is a wish to not address a concern that has been rais= ed, not because the concern could not be addressed or should not have been r= aised. It may feel unreasonable, and like an imposition, but it is not. It i= s part of the process. 

Rather than trying to steamroll over the objection, why not simply answer i= t?

On Feb 27, 2020, at 0= 4:30, Maojianwei (Mao) <maojianwei@huawei.com> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF

Hi fr= iends,

=  

Inter= net standard is aimed to promote deployment and innovation, but not to be a b= arrier.

=  

While= this WG LC has been extended again and again,

if we= have reached an agreement that SRv6 can bring many advantages for our netwo= rk in future,

we sh= ould shelve the dispute and promote industry.

=  

Meanw= hile, we can have a discussion in the future about how to resolve the proble= m, bis 8200 or what else.

=  

=  

So, I= agree we close the WG LC now, and go ahead.

=  

=  

Cheer= s~

Mao

 

 

 

=E5=8F=91=E4= =BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Lizhenbin =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6= =E9=97=B4: 2020= =E5=B9=B42=E6=9C=8826=E6=97=A5 19:55
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG List' <spring@ietf.o= rg>
=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-i= etf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-i= etf-spring-srv6-network-programming

 

Hi Bruno and WG,

The LC has lasted for almost 3 months wh= ich greatly exceeds the expected 2 week. In the process all the comments hav= e been resolved while some issues is raised again and again with little value.

On the other hand, there have been multi= ple commercial implementation and inter-op test and almost 20 deployments fo= r SRv6 which justify the solution proposed by the draft in practice.

 

We sincerely request to close the LC of t= he draft and move forward.

 

 

 

Best Regards,

Zhenbin (Robin)

 

 

From: bruno.decraene@orange.com [= mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.co= m]
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2019 1:15 AM
To: 'SPRING WG List' <spring@ie= tf.org>
Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-sp= ring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf= .org>
Subject: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming=

 

Hello SPRING,
 
This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last C=
all on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming [1].

 


Please read this document if you haven't read the m=
ost recent version, and send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later t=
han December 20.


 


You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment,=
 but consider not duplicating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the commen=
ts which are only spring specifics.


 


If you are raising a point which you expect will b=
e specifically debated on the mailing list, consider using a specific email/=
thread for this point.


This may help avoiding that the thread become spec=
ific to this point and that other points get forgotten (or that the thread g=
et converted into parallel independent discussions)


 


Thank you,


Bruno


 


[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ie=
tf-spring-srv6-network-programming-05


 


 


_____________________________________________________=
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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a e=
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In-Reply-To: From: Mark Smith Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 21:40:43 +1100 Message-ID: To: "Voyer, Daniel" Cc: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" , "spring@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: [spring] A permanent change to/violation of RFC8200 for a temporary situation. (Re: Is srv6 PSP a good idea) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 10:41:17 -0000 On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 at 09:14, Voyer, Daniel wrote: > > I agree 100% with Jingrong, > > PSP allows us to bring SRv6 to legacy PE devices that are not capable of = processing the SRH in the dataplane, but are capable of supporting SRv6 in = the control plane. > > See this example: > I am streaming traffic from a server to a customer; > The ingress PE (near the server) encapsulates the packet and adds an SRH = with a low-latency list of segments; > The penultimate node in the SRH executes PSP; > The egress PE (near the customer) decapsulates the IPv6 header and forwar= ds the inner packet to the customer. > I want to understand this example better, because it sounds very strange to= me. So the SRv6 control plane is extended past the edge of the SRv6 forwarding plane? In all other protocols and networks I'm aware of, the control plane domain and devices, and the forwarding plane domain and devices it/they controls are either congruent, or the control plane is "smaller" than the forwarding plane e.g. a couple of BGP Route Reflectors controlling a cluster of many more routers. What value is an SRv6 control plane on a router/PE that doesn't implement the SRv6 forwarding plane? This value would only exist during a temporary period until the router forwarding plane could be upgraded to an SRv6 forwarding plane, returning to the common convention of congruent control and forwarding planes. So it seems in this case that RFC 8200 is being violated with the PSP proposal to accommodate extending an SRv6 control plane past a network's SRv6 forwarding plane for a relatively short temporary period, for any particular network, perhaps no more than 2 to 3 years maximum. Why not have the SRv6 control and forwarding domains always match, as is usual and conventional for other matched pairs of control and forwarding plane protocols and deployments, including new protocol/forwarding plane deployments, and entirely avoid the issue of fundamental violations of or making fundamental changes to a full Internet standard protocol? > We can include SLA unidirectionally from the server to the customer even = though that the egress PE has a legacy ASIC. Legacy equipment are a reality= and are not easy to replace, hence interoperability with brownfield is key= for any innovative approach. > This is exactly the fundamental justification for not violating RFC 8200, and only minimally extending it where necessary and permitted, fitting within the architecture rather than trying to change it. As much SR magic as possible should be put into the much easier to upgrade control plane, ideally avoiding or at least minimising forwarding IPv6 plane changes. Regards, Mark. > dan > > =EF=BB=BFOn 2019-12-10, 11:15 PM, "spring on behalf of Xiejingrong (Jingr= ong)" wrote: > > I think it's a good idea. > Nothing new, but benefits that people have already said seems notable= to me. > > (1) reduce the load of final destination. This benefit can be notable= for the following sub reasons. > (1.1) final destination tends to have heavy load. It need to handle a= ll the EHs and do the delivery/demultiplex the packet to the right overlay = service. > (1.2) example 1, the final destination may need to handle the DOH aft= er the RH. > (1.3) example 2, the final destination may need to do the assembly of= fragmented packets. > (1.4) example 3, the final destination may need to do AH/ESP after th= e Fragmentation Header. > (1.5) example 4, the final destination may need to deliver the packet= to the right overlay service. > > (2) support the incremental deployment when final destination(s) do n= ot process/recognize SRH. This benefit can be notable for the following sub= reasons. > (2.1) A core router may (fan-out) connected with a big number of low-= end routers that do not support SRH but support tunnel-end/service-demultip= lex function of SRv6. > > Thanks > Jingrong > > -----Original Message----- > From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M. Ha= lpern > Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2019 10:55 AM > To: spring@ietf.org > Subject: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea > > For purposes of this thread, even if you think PSP violates RFC 8200,= let us assume that it is legal. > > As I understand it, the PSP situation is: > o the packet arrives at the place (let's not argue about whether SIDs= are locators) identified by the SID in the destination address field o tha= t SID is the next to last SID in the SID list o that sid is marked as / kno= wn to be PSP o at the intended place in the processing pseudocode, the last= (first) entry in the SRH is copied into the destination IPv6 address field= of the packet > -> The SRH being used is then removed from the packet. > > In order to evaluate whether this is a good idea, we have to have som= e idea of the benefit. It may be that I am missing some of the benefit, an= d I would appreciate clarification. > As far as I can tell, the benefit of this removal is that in exchange= for this node doing the work of removing the SRH, the final node in the SR= H does not have to process the SRH at all, as it has been removed. > > I have trouble seeing how that work tradeoff can be beneficial. > Removing bytes from the middle of a packet is a complex operation. > Doing so in Silicon (we expect this to be done in the fast path of si= gnificant forwarders as I understand it) requires very special provision. = Even in software, removing bytes from the middle of a packet requires somew= here between some and a lot of extra work. It is distinctly NOT free. > > In contrast, we have assumed that the work of processing SRH itself i= s tractable, since otherwise all of SRv6 would be problematic. So why is t= his necessary. > > Yours, > Joel > > PS: Note that both the MPLS case and the encapsulation case are very = different in that the material being removed is at the front of the IP pack= et. Pop or prepend are MUCH easier than middle-removal (or middle-insertio= n). > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > ---------------------------------------------------------------------= --------- > External Email: Please use caution when opening links and attachments= / Courriel externe: Soyez prudent avec les liens et documents joints > > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring From nobody Thu Feb 27 02:42:05 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C28103A080A; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 02:42:03 -0800 (PST) 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X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZIggTgoFb9m8; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 03:12:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AF8453A08F3; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 03:12:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (unknown [181.45.84.85]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1CC9D805AC; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 12:11:56 +0100 (CET) To: Ted Lemon , "Maojianwei (Mao)" Cc: SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming References: <6B803B308679F94FBD953ABEA5CCCCD701089509@dggema524-mbx.china.huawei.com> <6E7A3022-DEC7-4E35-9A56-0F708CD41180@fugue.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <58c706f7-2370-2b63-37df-0b5daf1ad8a5@gont.com.ar> Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:11:08 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6E7A3022-DEC7-4E35-9A56-0F708CD41180@fugue.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:12:15 -0000 On 27/2/20 07:27, Ted Lemon wrote: > The IETF serves users, not “industryâ€.  The IETF does not promote. Our > job is to make the internet work interoperably. Brian has raised an > objection that could be answered, but has not been. It is inappropriate > to say that this document has passed last call. > > In my experience, when it is hard to get consensus in situations like > this it is because there is a wish to not address a concern that has > been raised, not because the concern could not be addressed or should > not have been raised. It may feel unreasonable, and like an imposition, > but it is not. It is part of the process. > > Rather than trying to steamroll over the objection, why not simply > answer it? As a service to the community, let me explain: Essentially, and for some reason, they seem to be meaning to circumvent specs and processes. One of their last inventions has been to pretend that IPv6 allows EH insertion/deletion en-route, based on their reading of RFC8200. Based on a curious interpretation of the text, they claim that each waypoint (intermmediate router that received the packet because its address was set as de Destination Address) can insert/remove EHs, and they claim that that's not a violation of RFC8200. However, the PSP behavour doesn't even fit in that fictional interpretation of RFC8200. What PSP does is that, given: ---- B ----- C routers, when B realizes, after processing the SRH and setting the Dest Addr to the last segment, SegmentsLeft==0, it removes the SRH. This case is not even covered by their fictional interpretation of RFC8200. Hence the question is avoided, u X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38E5F3A09D3; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 03:42:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=neutral reason="invalid (unsupported algorithm ed25519-sha256)" header.d=uniroma2.it header.b=NfLYBQDd; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=uniroma2.it header.b=unNAarzW Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L_Wg9AEOW8ld; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 03:42:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.uniroma2.it (smtp.uniroma2.it [160.80.6.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2DB183A09C9; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 03:42:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpauth-2019-1.uniroma2.it (smtpauth-2019-1.uniroma2.it [160.80.5.46]) by smtp-2015.uniroma2.it (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8) with ESMTP id 01RBgdN4021109; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 12:42:45 +0100 Received: from [192.168.100.176] (unknown [160.80.103.191]) by smtpauth-2019-1.uniroma2.it (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EB9A1122901; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 12:42:34 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=ed25519-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=uniroma2.it; s=ed201904; t=1582803755; h=from:from:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=EZbJm9fT2LyvUv58zi2A7iiqIdUAqYZP7hrgm8GXDgc=; b=NfLYBQDdKA5jbC024ojZflEmduYAqSvC6kivKmLYINdw9Ou9/V8DC4tdJJF3aZmv8+/lpH OIEms+/Lchu4OOCg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=uniroma2.it; s=rsa201904; t=1582803755; h=from:from:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=EZbJm9fT2LyvUv58zi2A7iiqIdUAqYZP7hrgm8GXDgc=; b=unNAarzWrn0varhPoKYynfqsfKcKEt5vnzcxLTCrgcJeU0n3YCvcG+I2NaXJJ1CAfgtMDA ojx1jMYXHTxmQ0Xe27sSnJZQCcSn08J4Zb34I0TZ3VI41kIs+++240hkEw00K0IhZI+e82 JcKGqD5j6wBnwlC7r+czAAlqd7UAetAt+MwWTGwLkG7U5LQi7y/Nj2U0MekznunWlCaYqw p84qUvqMWyuNdgI1TSGFqj5SJzZDoUCBlyKf1T9HhL/2WEX/77uRBCW6RUX+TksRzHWm2f 4H4OL/YGQUKD/TOG1H7T0uzeJQpfy8XkKt2zSlYqXkOPTeLIjalvLXdv9bGQUw== To: Brian E Carpenter , "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" , Warren Kumari , John Leddy Cc: SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden , "Zafar Ali (zali)" References: <5D218BFB-0D6F-4F7D-858F-B571A67DC47F@leddy.net> <8a20c0e2-e651-0294-03c2-4b89c44549cc@uniroma2.it> <53226b1c-6ac5-24b0-4787-a7ccfd9723af@gmail.com> From: Stefano Salsano Message-ID: Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 12:42:34 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <53226b1c-6ac5-24b0-4787-a7ccfd9723af@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: it-IT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.100.0 at smtp-2015 X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:42:58 -0000 Brian, Il 2020-02-27 03:29, Brian E Carpenter ha scritto: > Stefano, > On 27-Feb-20 14:42, Stefano Salsano wrote: >> Il 2020-02-27 02:14, Brian E Carpenter ha scritto: >>> Eric, >>> >>> On 27-Feb-20 12:18, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote: >>>> Writing this without any hat, >>>> >>>> Please note that on the logical side, it still have to be "proven" that this idea is strictly forbidden by RFC 8200. >>> >>> The draft uses an undefined term ("pop") but it does *explicitly* state in a section called "Penultimate Segment Pop of the SRH": >>> >>>>> S14.4. Remove the SRH from the IPv6 extension header chain >>> >>> If the word "penultimate" means what it means in every dictionary, this is in-flight removal of a header, and that is explicitly against RFC 8200, section 4, first paragraph below the diagram. >> >> Brian, >> >> "penultimate segment" means what it means in every dictionary, but this >> is not in-fligth removal of a header. >> >> When the packet has reached the "penultimate segment", it has reached a >> node "identified in the Destination Address field of the IPv6 header" as >> stated in RFC 8200, section 4, first paragraph below the diagram > > So in what sense is it penultimate (i.e. next to last)? If it has reached > the destination address, if the segment list is [S1, S2, S3] (where S1 is the first segment and S3 the final destination) S2 is the penultimate segment and the packet is received by S2 with Destination Address = S2, I repeat that at the very end of section 3 of RFC 8200 the "Destination address" is defined as "address of the intended recipient of the packet (possibly not the ultimate recipient, if a Routing header is present)" > what happens next? next the packet needs to be forwarded to S3 > I understand this for the following case, Ultimate Segment Pop, where the > text refers to processing the packet inside the receiving node. But the > text is completely lacking an explanation of the "penultimate" case, > and I found nothing about it in other SRH documents either. > > If I was writing code for this, I would have no idea how to generate a > test case. > > It's also obscure in the text how the node receiving a packet knows > which of "PSP, USP and USD flavors" applies. They don't seem to be marked > in the packet in any way. it is not marked in the packet, likewise it is not marked in the packet which SRv6 behavior is associated with a SID Stefano > > It seems to me that there is something blindingly obvious to SRH specialists > that is not stated at all in the draft, so the rest of us simply can't make > sense of it. It may or may not be a gap in the protocol, but there is > definitely a gap in the description. > > Brian > >> >> Please note that at the very end of section 3 the "Destination address" >> is defined as "address of the intended recipient of the packet (possibly >> not the ultimate recipient, if a Routing header is present)" >> >> Stefano >> >>> >>> It's possible that "penultimate" means something else, e.g. "ultimate". I don't know. I've been puzzling over this language for months and it doesn't change. Maybe someone can finally post an explanation, but until they do, I don't see how any WG Chair could assert rough consensus. An obviously organised +1+1+1+1 campaign is not consensus. I don't know about you, but when I see a message whose only content is "+1" I just delete it. >>> >>> Brian >>> >>>> Moreover, this 'proof' can technically wait until the IETF last call or even until the IESG ballot. I see little point in postponing the closing of the WGLC and advancing the document (of course, the document shepherd will need to carefully write the section about the rough WG consensus). >>>> >>>> Finally, as far as I know, at the IETF we have no religion... else we would still be running NCP or IPv4 :-) >>>> >>>> -éric >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: ipv6 on behalf of Warren Kumari >>>> >>>> ...%<...%<.... >>>> >>>> It doesn't really matter how many people say +1 for moving it forwards >>>> -- if there are valid technical objections these have to be dealt with >>>> - and I think that the relationship with RFC8200 falling into this >>>> category... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>>> ipv6@ietf.org >>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>> ipv6@ietf.org >>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >> >> > -- ******************************************************************* Stefano Salsano Professore Associato Dipartimento Ingegneria Elettronica Universita' di Roma Tor Vergata Viale Politecnico, 1 - 00133 Roma - ITALY http://netgroup.uniroma2.it/Stefano_Salsano/ E-mail : stefano.salsano@uniroma2.it Cell. : +39 320 4307310 Office : (Tel.) +39 06 72597770 (Fax.) +39 06 72597435 ******************************************************************* From nobody Thu Feb 27 03:53:31 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 869CD3A0A0A; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 03:53:29 -0800 (PST) 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b3UuCgo= From nobody Thu Feb 27 04:05:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF6A63A09E8; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 04:05:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xdgDjFRGHT_i; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 04:05:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5AC753A0803; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 04:05:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from LHREML710-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 72B329E4861BDA6CED2A; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 12:05:12 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.154) by LHREML710-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.33) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 12:05:12 +0000 Received: from nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.154) by nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.154) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1713.5; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 20:05:09 +0800 Received: from nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.154]) by nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.154]) with mapi id 15.01.1713.004; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 20:05:09 +0800 From: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" To: Fernando Gont , Ted Lemon , "Maojianwei (Mao)" CC: SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Topic: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - 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List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 12:05:16 -0000 DQpIb3dldmVyLCB0aGUgUFNQIGJlaGF2b3VyIGRvZXNuJ3QgZXZlbiBmaXQgaW4gdGhhdCBmaWN0 aW9uYWwgaW50ZXJwcmV0YXRpb24gb2YgUkZDODIwMC4NCg0KV2hhdCBQU1AgZG9lcyBpcyB0aGF0 LCBnaXZlbjoNCg0KICAtLS0tIEIgLS0tLS0gQw0KDQoNCnJvdXRlcnMsIHdoZW4gQiByZWFsaXpl cywgYWZ0ZXIgcHJvY2Vzc2luZyB0aGUgU1JIIGFuZCBzZXR0aW5nIHRoZSBEZXN0IEFkZHIgdG8g dGhlIGxhc3Qgc2VnbWVudCwgU2VnbWVudHNMZWZ0PT0wLCBpdCByZW1vdmVzIHRoZSBTUkguDQoN ClRoaXMgY2FzZSBpcyBub3QgZXZlbiBjb3ZlcmVkIGJ5IHRoZWlyIGZpY3Rpb25hbCBpbnRlcnBy ZXRhdGlvbiBvZiBSRkM4MjAwLg0KDQoNClJGQzgyMDA6DQogICBFeHRlbnNpb24gaGVhZGVycyAo ZXhjZXB0IGZvciB0aGUgSG9wLWJ5LUhvcCBPcHRpb25zIGhlYWRlcikgYXJlIG5vdA0KICAgcHJv Y2Vzc2VkLCBpbnNlcnRlZCwgb3IgZGVsZXRlZCBieSBhbnkgbm9kZSBhbG9uZyBhIHBhY2tldCdz IGRlbGl2ZXJ5DQogICBwYXRoLCB1bnRpbCB0aGUgcGFja2V0IHJlYWNoZXMgdGhlIG5vZGUgKG9y IGVhY2ggb2YgdGhlIHNldCBvZiBub2RlcywNCiAgIGluIHRoZSBjYXNlIG9mIG11bHRpY2FzdCkg 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Y2xlYXJseSwgYW5kIEkgYXNzdW1lIHRoaXMgZGlzdGluY3Rpb24gaGFkIGJlZW4gd2VsbCBhd2Fy ZSBvZiBzaW5jZSAxODgzLg0KDQoNClRoYW5rcw0KSmluZ3JvbmcNCg0K From nobody Thu Feb 27 04:45:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDE2A3A0128; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 04:45:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5C-1tplWYHhC; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 04:45:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from ESA1-Wyn.bell.ca (esa1-wyn.bell.ca [67.69.243.161]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E9963A0123; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 04:45:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm5cch-d00.bellca.int.bell.ca (HELO DG1MBX01-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca) ([198.235.102.30]) by esa01corp-wyn.bell.corp.bce.ca with ESMTP; 27 Feb 2020 07:45:02 -0500 Received: from DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca (2002:8eb6:120e::8eb6:120e) by DG1MBX01-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca (2002:8eb6:120b::8eb6:120b) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 07:45:02 -0500 Received: from DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca ([fe80::75af:23bf:bdc5:ef10]) by DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca ([fe80::75af:23bf:bdc5:ef10%22]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.003; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 07:45:02 -0500 From: "Voyer, Daniel" To: "Maojianwei (Mao)" CC: Lizhenbin , "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Topic: [EXT]RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - 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(amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z3quxPwphXmx; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 05:02:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from ESA1-Dor.bell.ca (esa1-dor.bell.ca [204.101.223.58]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D8BEB3A0784; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 05:02:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from dc5cmy-d00.bellca.int.bell.ca (HELO DG1MBX02-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca) ([198.235.121.229]) by esa01corp-dor.bell.corp.bce.ca with ESMTP; 27 Feb 2020 08:02:05 -0500 Received: from DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca (2002:8eb6:120e::8eb6:120e) by DG1MBX02-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca (2002:8eb6:120c::8eb6:120c) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:02:04 -0500 Received: from DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca ([fe80::75af:23bf:bdc5:ef10]) by DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca ([fe80::75af:23bf:bdc5:ef10%22]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.003; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:02:04 -0500 From: "Voyer, Daniel" To: Ted Lemon CC: "Maojianwei (Mao)" , Lizhenbin , "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Topic: [EXT]Re: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Index: AdXtUHCBbvZKbuXWME2X5fQfMDHe0AAMfkSA///XZGQ= Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 13:02:04 +0000 Message-ID: References: <6B803B308679F94FBD953ABEA5CCCCD701089509@dggema524-mbx.china.huawei.com>, <6E7A3022-DEC7-4E35-9A56-0F708CD41180@fugue.com> In-Reply-To: <6E7A3022-DEC7-4E35-9A56-0F708CD41180@fugue.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C69945CF0ED04CCB96F603DA533A41B6bellca_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: 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([2601:18b:300:36ee:b8ed:c35:a977:7427]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 11sm2976096qko.76.2020.02.27.05.04.24 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 27 Feb 2020 05:04:24 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.13.2.1\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <58c706f7-2370-2b63-37df-0b5daf1ad8a5@gont.com.ar> Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:04:22 -0500 Cc: "Maojianwei (Mao)" , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9E058FE7-22DB-4267-A796-88301885F269@fugue.com> References: <6B803B308679F94FBD953ABEA5CCCCD701089509@dggema524-mbx.china.huawei.com> <6E7A3022-DEC7-4E35-9A56-0F708CD41180@fugue.com> <58c706f7-2370-2b63-37df-0b5daf1ad8a5@gont.com.ar> To: Fernando Gont X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.13.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 13:04:29 -0000 This is really not helpful, Fernando, and goes some way toward = explaining why communication isn=E2=80=99t happening. What I reacted to in Brian=E2=80=99s message is that he asked a really = simple question that could be readily answered with a pointer to the = text in the document where the answer is given. Since the response was = instead to explain in email, that tells me that the spec is incomplete. Separately, Brian mentioned that there is an issue with RFC8200 that = would require an update, that discussions had occurred around this, but = then the work never happened. It=E2=80=99s reasonable to raise an = objection to proceeding with work that depends on other work that = hasn=E2=80=99t been done. What I objected to in Maojianwei=E2=80=99s comment is the notion that = the document should pass last call to support the industry. No, the = working group should do the work to address the objections that have = been raised. If you find yourself explaining some concept that=E2=80=99s= mentioned in the document using text that is not in the document and = not in another document referenced by the document, the fix is not to = just publish anyway, because it supports the industry. The fix is to = update the document. A dozen or so +1s should not be taken seriously = if the work has not been done and nobody wants to do it. > On Feb 27, 2020, at 6:11 AM, Fernando Gont = wrote: >=20 > On 27/2/20 07:27, Ted Lemon wrote: >> The IETF serves users, not =E2=80=9Cindustry=E2=80=9D. The IETF does = not promote. Our job is to make the internet work interoperably. Brian = has raised an objection that could be answered, but has not been. It is = inappropriate to say that this document has passed last call. >> In my experience, when it is hard to get consensus in situations like = this it is because there is a wish to not address a concern that has = been raised, not because the concern could not be addressed or should = not have been raised. It may feel unreasonable, and like an imposition, = but it is not. It is part of the process. >> Rather than trying to steamroll over the objection, why not simply = answer it? >=20 > As a service to the community, let me explain: >=20 > Essentially, and for some reason, they seem to be meaning to = circumvent specs and processes. >=20 > One of their last inventions has been to pretend that IPv6 allows EH = insertion/deletion en-route, based on their reading of RFC8200. Based on = a curious interpretation of the text, they claim that each waypoint = (intermmediate router that received the packet because its address was = set as de Destination Address) can insert/remove EHs, and they claim = that that's not a violation of RFC8200. >=20 > However, the PSP behavour doesn't even fit in that fictional = interpretation of RFC8200. >=20 > What PSP does is that, given: >=20 > ---- B ----- C >=20 >=20 > routers, when B realizes, after processing the SRH and setting the = Dest Addr to the last segment, SegmentsLeft=3D=3D0, it removes the SRH. >=20 > This case is not even covered by their fictional interpretation of = RFC8200. >=20 > Hence the question is avoided, u=20 >=20 > It should eb evident here that the strategy is not really to follow = IETF process, gain consensus, formally update specs if/where needed, but = rather push whatever they publish, at whatever cost, ignoring the issues = raised in this wg, and circumventing IETF process. >=20 > The fact that this behavior is allowed seems to be unfair with = participants, and a dis-service to the group. >=20 > Thanks, > --=20 > Fernando Gont > e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com > PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 >=20 >=20 >=20 From nobody Thu Feb 27 05:08:56 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BF4E3A07B5 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 05:08:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0HOEhib8_vrw for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 05:08:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x82f.google.com (mail-qt1-x82f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1CB053A07AE for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 05:08:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x82f.google.com with SMTP id d9so2148155qte.12 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 05:08:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=UvNbUWTz51edZ+o2Q+K6j62njGquuHjb6vjFr1BgjWc=; b=ftxpRze9Hd5w9aK3AwtMajfzqvWznFaEcHvFqnbg0cEAJOhJXJYQ5A6NvZDiIcRTRw EJNIWmxCv0M2uTOVAmtCMJoDlwtuAkxz/Kyun6eoHE6jP0OcQ9YdxgDVIMRaQ9eImd3Y jgW4tO7VbeTFtBKP7MprUdxbN7H1BfMoAOZVTzrkLzUMYX6SoD5bB/gD8pH08HEFy4tY rEVhqDRdhT5+RWT6MYYq3FmIUYw3eASj5Qvm32CLMr8a+ZNhYUuoPMxqrUp1Gy79AS29 2/GqSjviaRbfqw+RUyH/nr2NJiA5jz2tkX8+1cCejTkp0jEC0OzjZ/2TCdV08zZ5teXk ZL5w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=UvNbUWTz51edZ+o2Q+K6j62njGquuHjb6vjFr1BgjWc=; b=fDBzXfNAe3PDVS/eZUG1FSU1AvY6AnSPxYZzLsWE1snVK1bUTq1e4cNG5tK70o7B/c A9EnCbuwgOEkRzK0mIWEdP/7vBggHHESYrWwKTrjANUWuc2LOTWwLS35zRWoyUgYox6Z 5wKrArKFAC3aXabU2UR7UMpxaKLnOKwf8D6Ma8tjwVFZLWMwEpXtQ6k/i1IO1nNK4wdz DL6SrhBSnEdeh16BBviihoC+OwcBcFx5vZcpyaJdFGcUpjJ4QujZhf+vsrxzB6A6ISyd YUewXQt1qvkz98XISdVIYSFpqeeusIRAQLIG5vlsRJTrjNNw3InbWCRa2UIJsoSHLaFd qSew== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVPfq+cunU37juqAjViqogfCN0T9fD9heY+fuBFmDipCl9FCaXT +IYR3/qFZcv6VlLQB2ucrlEI2g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzpBeBSn0RYDH/x1P4r3pKHDmHBUtfMVxwaZ/RGz8p9h2AGqgkoXa4CGoWOZ4gbtgr5eYGhaQ== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:3ac6:: with SMTP id x64mr5080662qte.56.1582808929198; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 05:08:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:18b:300:36ee:b8ed:c35:a977:7427? ([2601:18b:300:36ee:b8ed:c35:a977:7427]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o7sm3064274qkd.119.2020.02.27.05.08.48 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 27 Feb 2020 05:08:48 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.13.2.1\)) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:08:46 -0500 Cc: "Maojianwei (Mao)" , Lizhenbin , "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <66327512-43CE-47CB-A5BD-10E5D8F71FD8@fugue.com> References: <6B803B308679F94FBD953ABEA5CCCCD701089509@dggema524-mbx.china.huawei.com> <6E7A3022-DEC7-4E35-9A56-0F708CD41180@fugue.com> To: "Voyer, Daniel" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.13.2.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 13:08:51 -0000 On Feb 27, 2020, at 8:02 AM, Voyer, Daniel wrote: > You should rephrase that - 1 objection can=E2=80=99t prevent the rest = of us to move forward hence why sometime we need to go with a rough = consensus. Rough consensus means all the objections have been addressed, not that = everyone agrees. The situation here is that all the objections appear = not to have been addressed, and that agreed-upon supporting work has not = been done (and nobody wants to do it). From nobody Thu Feb 27 05:26:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95D083A0834; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 05:26:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.096 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.096 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=neutral reason="invalid (unsupported algorithm ed25519-sha256)" header.d=uniroma2.it header.b=KBfcaJPJ; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=uniroma2.it header.b=ryVZuLEp Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eRi46M4NMYmb; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 05:26:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.uniroma2.it (smtp.uniroma2.it [160.80.6.16]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C4AEA3A084E; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 05:26:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpauth-2019-1.uniroma2.it (smtpauth-2019-1.uniroma2.it [160.80.5.46]) by smtp-2015.uniroma2.it (8.14.4/8.14.4/Debian-8) with ESMTP id 01RDQA6a028364; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:26:16 +0100 Received: from [192.168.100.176] (unknown [160.80.103.191]) by smtpauth-2019-1.uniroma2.it (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 51014120F5A; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:26:02 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=ed25519-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=uniroma2.it; s=ed201904; t=1582809962; h=from:from:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=0jON1esKPs7bLsNhCE3k2L9HqemVUIaK/ug00ReJ+fI=; b=KBfcaJPJ+918vIcxMVHF7evW6mpBUOdjPqpIMJHnaA0cqKkyyWNi8TJeUlWsprKT8zEKTe ZhnaDPsv3IXcRABA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=uniroma2.it; s=rsa201904; t=1582809962; h=from:from:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=0jON1esKPs7bLsNhCE3k2L9HqemVUIaK/ug00ReJ+fI=; b=ryVZuLEpwp4YFVKkddG1jigFoIA+eL5IsqY7HMHJlVmKlBSs5Acl10A4rTVSPATWU9T3Kc SH4p8RJ+2kdPRVyahB8o3YgZIyfQjJ93cISY7DKP1RMF3RxkA/o++ui/uo/mZcmU6ZR/e0 SKTkwt2pl+TfAWn7VQghCgU3D6Xk0WWA9BrelNHnPD5Yg+yUwfKyNjm7mX+tAlMgMrtsMB OQYgsloqFynnRbX1DgYgrEznwmpPHoJrEJ8YCCQ3+rdpqryZPXBfm3lK5uYwJYkz4JG0JM CXkkEheU/WPZn0l8uPzHam4AgRaDPZicfVtIJxex9VKADQ/LwrNHc7RqL2D2sw== To: Fernando Gont , bruno.decraene@orange.com, "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" , Warren Kumari , John Leddy Cc: SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden , "Zafar Ali (zali)" References: <5D218BFB-0D6F-4F7D-858F-B571A67DC47F@leddy.net> <8abfd5a1-e806-3598-c389-8214b3d09447@si6networks.com> <10919_1582792881_5E5780B1_10919_216_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DB590F@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> From: Stefano Salsano Message-ID: <36dfd49f-6a17-dd29-adb6-b7e3d0ae2f47@uniroma2.it> Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:26:01 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Language: it-IT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.100.0 at smtp-2015 X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 13:26:28 -0000 Fernando, Il 2020-02-27 10:07, Fernando Gont ha scritto: > Bruno, > > On 27/2/20 05:41, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote: >> Fernando, >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fernando Gont >>> Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2020 12:45 AM >>> >>> Hello, Eric, >>> >>> On 26/2/20 20:18, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote: >>>> Writing this without any hat, >>>> >>>> Please note that on the logical side, it still have to be "proven" >>>> that this idea is strictly forbidden by RFC 8200. >>> >>> Here's the proof part: >>> >>> 1) Isn't IPv6 end to end? >>> >>> 2) How do core components of IPv6, such as AH and PMTUD work in the >>> present of intermediate nodes that can add and/or remove arbitrary >>> extension headers? >>> >>> It should be clear from the above that EH insertion/deletion is >>> forbidden. >> >> This draft does not propose that intermediate node add extension header. >>   - If this is not clear to you, please read the draft. > > What is this:???? > > 4.16.1.  PSP: Penultimate Segment Pop of the SRH > >    The SRH processing of the End, End.X and End.T behaviors are >    modified: after the instruction "S14.  Update IPv6 DA with Segment >    List[Segments Left]" is executed, the following instructions must be >    executed as well: > >  S14.1.   If (Segments Left == 0) { >  S14.2.      Update the Next Header field in the preceding header to the >                 Next Header value of the SRH >  S14.3.      Decrease the IPv6 header Payload Length by the Hdr Ext Len >                 value of the SRH >  S14.4.      Remove the SRH from the IPv6 extension header chain >  S14.5.   } > > > Isn't this having the penultimate segment fo a packet removing an > extension header for a packet whose Destination Address is not even it's > own? no, this is a wrong interpretation the penultimate segment is removing the extension header for a packet whose Destination Address *is its own address* > > Doesn't this read a bit as "the router was the DA of the packet, after > you change the DA to that of the next waypoint, if you realize Segments > Left == 0, remove the SRH"? > > (which does not even comply with the now infamous "interpretation" of > RFC8200 that if you are the DA, you can add/remove EHs. during the processing, as described in the pseudo code, there is an intermediate step in which the packet *processed inside the router* has the destination address of the last segment and the router removes the SRH it is never suggested/allowed in the draft that a router can remove the SRH from a received packet that does not have a router address as DA Stefano > > > >>   - If it's clear, please let's stick to technical comment on _this_ >> draft. Bringing irrelevant points to the discussion is really not >> helping (both the discussion  and the argument). >> >> This draft does not propose that intermediate node add/or remove >> arbitrary  extension header. >> >> This draft, and more specifically the PSP flavor [1], is about >> removing the SRH header by an SR EndPoint. > > Seriously? > > >> - with regards to PMTUD, can you clarify how reducing the size of the >> packet break PMTUD? And if there is an impact, let's remember that >> this is the source of the packet which instruct the SR EndPoint to >> remove the SRH. >> - with regards to AH, the SRH specification explicitly states that the >> use of SRH with AH by an SR source node is _not_ defined [2]. > > Do you understand that AH should be usable for all IPv6 traffic? > > > [....] >>> (that's what Errata's are for, after all... and it should be clear that >>> the EH processing part, overall, needs improvements). >> >> Again, thank you for that, I believe this is useful. >> But while this errata is not reviewed and accepted, RFC 8200 stands as >> is. > > The errata is a clarification, not a change. Of course RFC8200 stands: > EHs are not deleted or added en route to destination. > > > Thanks, -- ******************************************************************* Stefano Salsano Professore Associato Dipartimento Ingegneria Elettronica Universita' di Roma Tor Vergata Viale Politecnico, 1 - 00133 Roma - ITALY http://netgroup.uniroma2.it/Stefano_Salsano/ E-mail : stefano.salsano@uniroma2.it Cell. : +39 320 4307310 Office : (Tel.) +39 06 72597770 (Fax.) +39 06 72597435 ******************************************************************* From nobody Thu Feb 27 05:27:28 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE3003A08ED; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 05:27:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.09 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.09 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, 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2020 05:43:53 -0800 (PST) From: "Joel M. Halpern" To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" Cc: SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> References: <5D218BFB-0D6F-4F7D-858F-B571A67DC47F@leddy.net> Message-ID: Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:43:51 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 13:44:01 -0000 Even if one assumes that the violation has not been proven, I think it has been shown clearly that PSP pushes the limits of 8200. If there is a strong reason for PSP, then pushing those limits is sensible. But the vast majority of the response we are getting to the issue on this list is either: 1) It does not actually violate, so we can do what we want, even if the value is marginal 2) the limits do not apply Neither of those seem to address the question. And that gap is a concern with closing the last call. Yours, Joel On 2/26/2020 6:18 PM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote: > Writing this without any hat, > > Please note that on the logical side, it still have to be "proven" that this idea is strictly forbidden by RFC 8200. Moreover, this 'proof' can technically wait until the IETF last call or even until the IESG ballot. I see little point in postponing the closing of the WGLC and advancing the document (of course, the document shepherd will need to carefully write the section about the rough WG consensus). > > Finally, as far as I know, at the IETF we have no religion... else we would still be running NCP or IPv4 :-) > > -éric > > -----Original Message----- > From: ipv6 on behalf of Warren Kumari > > ...%<...%<.... > > It doesn't really matter how many people say +1 for moving it forwards > -- if there are valid technical objections these have to be dealt with > - and I think that the relationship with RFC8200 falling into this > category... > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > From nobody Thu Feb 27 05:55:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 876B93A0913; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 05:55:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id riyXTNdyh-4v; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 05:55:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [IPv6:2a03:8900:0:100::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E49493A0912; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 05:55:36 -0800 (PST) X-Envelope-To: spring@ietf.org Received: from cupcake.local (089-101-195156.ntlworld.ie [89.101.195.156] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netability.ie (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 01RDtXJq088698 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 27 Feb 2020 13:55:33 GMT (envelope-from nick@foobar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host 089-101-195156.ntlworld.ie [89.101.195.156] (may be forged) claimed to be cupcake.local To: Andrew Alston Cc: "'SPRING WG List'" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> References: <6B803B308679F94FBD953ABEA5CCCCD701089509@dggema524-mbx.china.huawei.com> From: Nick Hilliard Message-ID: <0f54afa8-f3aa-60ee-9954-4acf4a24ebd7@foobar.org> Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 13:55:31 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 PostboxApp/7.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 13:55:38 -0000 Andrew Alston wrote on 27/02/2020 10:35: > 1. The burn of address space required to adequately deploy some of this > (something that there was agreement on in Montreal that there would > be analysis on – which was never done) I'm a bit alarmed by the lack of engagement here between the authors of this draft and the RIR community about addressing. This draft has the capacity to require significant changes to address allocation / assignment policy, but so far there's been no discussion about how this might work within current or future RIR allocation / assignment policies, or indeed upstream at IANA. Could the authors provide some information on how they intend to approach this issue? 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Thu, 27 Feb 2020 15:21:52 +0000 From: John Scudder To: Brian E Carpenter CC: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" , Warren Kumari , John Leddy , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden , "Zafar Ali (zali)" Thread-Topic: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Index: AQHV7Mw1Z+bRbaP7BEi4D3jb6AgA/qgtycOAgAAK2oCAAAQCAIAAQ+MAgAAgTYCAAOzerQ== Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 15:21:52 +0000 Message-ID: <84B1961D-9E28-4358-B432-57C32E8FAC15@juniper.net> References: <5D218BFB-0D6F-4F7D-858F-B571A67DC47F@leddy.net> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [2600:1700:37a0:3ca0:70f0:5693:18f7:11c8] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 3103b580-8250-4dbe-ff53-08d7bb98c5bd x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BL0PR05MB5010: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:2512; x-forefront-prvs: 03264AEA72 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; 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bh=kZ4efCQa8jVGq82TCZUmYHDkHK+t5TE3KT49DBaawG4=; b=LXVzjH84JBgHq17l0ivvZcGeG4C1j2M2Jo8hRxK5Mc9upBxp/u6wJcl/rb2zRVYzUdnuSH 2ThNdSwBW2MigQQUS0R5BU8EnozJbA9Er+VKPb2ZryR/ZkqA3M/btwgeZl/6VgZXMfHE/6 cXo1RV4kTRWa4kjCds9OJySSlZz8MZskHmdRnJPwDVRUaj5r35dsQ98mirHDku5ignWBW3 ATh64oM9g+XL3JlfiGfZzI5z0N1xNZSTLebd9LVkCzg489APglu0ZsCI3Z2DRE+hf3ayHc 20GgnmjXCFX8RZ/yT4eFs44tLrO9choYKHl4OkXlCAkq3tV+ycm84WtMAbbi7Q== To: Fernando Gont , Ted Lemon , "Maojianwei (Mao)" Cc: SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming References: <6B803B308679F94FBD953ABEA5CCCCD701089509@dggema524-mbx.china.huawei.com> <6E7A3022-DEC7-4E35-9A56-0F708CD41180@fugue.com> <58c706f7-2370-2b63-37df-0b5daf1ad8a5@gont.com.ar> From: Stefano Salsano Message-ID: Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 17:22:05 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <58c706f7-2370-2b63-37df-0b5daf1ad8a5@gont.com.ar> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: it-IT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.100.0 at smtp-2015 X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 16:22:39 -0000 Fernando, Il 2020-02-27 12:11, Fernando Gont ha scritto: [... removed non-technical discussion] > One of their last inventions has been to pretend that IPv6 allows EH > insertion/deletion en-route, based on their reading of RFC8200. Based on > a curious interpretation of the text, they claim that each waypoint > (intermmediate router that received the packet because its address was > set as de Destination Address) can insert/remove EHs, and they claim > that that's not a violation of RFC8200. > > However, the PSP behavour doesn't even fit in that fictional > interpretation of RFC8200. > > What PSP does is that, given: > >  ---- B ----- C > > routers, when B realizes, after processing the SRH and setting the Dest > Addr to the last segment, SegmentsLeft==0, it removes the SRH. > > This case is not even covered by their fictional interpretation of RFC8200. router B receives a packet whose DA belongs to B in the pseudo code router B sets the DA of the packet to C before removing the SRH, this is only the description of the internal processing that happens in the router this does *NOT* mean that router B can remove an SRH in a received packet in which the DA belongs to C Stefano [... removed non-technical discussion] -- ******************************************************************* Stefano Salsano Professore Associato Dipartimento Ingegneria Elettronica Universita' di Roma Tor Vergata Viale Politecnico, 1 - 00133 Roma - ITALY http://netgroup.uniroma2.it/Stefano_Salsano/ E-mail : stefano.salsano@uniroma2.it Cell. : +39 320 4307310 Office : (Tel.) +39 06 72597770 (Fax.) +39 06 72597435 ******************************************************************* From nobody Thu Feb 27 08:26:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 033383A0C03; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 08:26:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, 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DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=R9lR+T+it4zXhO0VHI513uRYuauDnEwKY8nbzxlXDBk=; b=KTzPfuVQSRiTIHU3aTyFcLgtSRFdb+QBSVT/Oo76EJEWYE/TgxerEwAn2G5HDgaKYk 8X58Gl+ghuSdqJobIDjGOwQdX4KqRBknYImoCX2NL2T7/CLYfDti4AAf67G8n6mwAv4q YU382ywi9O5K5Taha6VJP+NMwy/rs3Z8eZiMtTatUMZ+4rFehKb4sfZB0hLfzPai+6Hg uuCim4CGAbzWaG3rrXmbZKQ7RKNZYPgYbYGpXqohFt+jbn47AdI6JhxPwLqcRk2aHgpm 5z09a9+As8Z9pNmnQSDbo3EtEAzhGO3Z/STEfZOUcG80XR/bYqqsSlgo55A5427PqyXU g5kg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=R9lR+T+it4zXhO0VHI513uRYuauDnEwKY8nbzxlXDBk=; b=Mr0NlXb8SxR4akn24Kk+7/fXe4+ZkxJMchwQcNPcq7FXmUKf155noLJHNEyBM+56KD G5At/LGYxxLc62SlUzGlfFjNFVNlvXLBzkymudpnNCiLic7q3qyXphyw6TYTQl9tH39y +YWheuzrcuRx43QLJzRzCJu86EkAU3bPYTGYzXuFLOjy0fiesWAJamyjnsPQnjHtswDF 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Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 17:18:42 -0000 --0000000000006f9efa059f91e933 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" SPRING and LSR WGs, I think that we need a much more detailed description of the locator block and locator node in either draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming or draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions. See original email below. Thanks, Chris On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 11:08 AM Peter Psenak wrote: > Hi Chris, > > On 27/02/2020 17:54, Chris Bowers wrote: > > LSR WG, > > > > Section 9 of draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-05 defines the SRv6 > > SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV. In particular, it defines encoding for the > > locator block length and the locator node length. The text refers to > > [I-D.ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming] for the definition of these > > concepts. > > > > As far as I can tell, the only reference to locator block and locator > > node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10 is section 3.1 > > which has the following text: > > > > A locator may be represented as B:N where B is the SRv6 SID block > > (IPv6 subnet allocated for SRv6 SIDs by the operator) and N is the > > identifier of the parent node instantiating the SID. > > > > I think that we need a much more detailed description of the locator > > block and locator node. > > sure, but that would be in the > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10, not in > draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions, as these are not a protocol > specific constructs. > > thanks, > Peter > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Chris > > > > --0000000000006f9efa059f91e933 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
SPRING and LSR WGs,

I thin= k that we need a much more detailed description of the locator block and lo= cator node in either draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming or draft-ie= tf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions.=C2=A0 See original email below.

Thanks,
Chris
<= br>
O= n Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 11:08 AM Peter Psenak <ppsenak@cisco.com> wrote:
Hi Chris,

On 27/02/2020 17:54, Chris Bowers wrote:
> LSR WG,
>
> Section 9 of draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions-05 defines the=C2=A0 = SRv6
> SID Structure Sub-Sub-TLV. In particular, it defines encoding for the =
> locator block length and the locator node length.=C2=A0 The text refer= s to
> [I-D.ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming] for the definition of these=
> concepts.
>
> As far as I can tell, the only reference to locator block and locator =
> node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10 is section 3.1 <= br> > which has the following text:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A locator may be represented as B:N where B is the = SRv6 SID block
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(IPv6 subnet allocated for SRv6 SIDs by the operato= r) and N is the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0identifier of the parent node instantiating the SID= .
>
> I think that we need a much more detailed description of the locator <= br> > block and locator node.

sure, but that would be in the
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10, not in
draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions, as these are not a protocol
specific constructs.

thanks,
Peter

>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>

--0000000000006f9efa059f91e933-- From nobody Thu Feb 27 10:09:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1BC93A0E76 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 10:09:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i38lu2NBqj-Z for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 10:09:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x730.google.com (mail-qk1-x730.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::730]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A9BC3A0E79 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 10:09:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x730.google.com with SMTP id m9so276711qke.4 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 10:09:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=uX+Ida6Aol8H0/p7hlnCkO3XjuYgfkhJIFzYeLXZC8o=; b=cKZQN3UW/PA41hNsIY7UFkPWuixi8SDLLkJvNLzZv/aHvJm2F5fR6VnUZDS+sFB/k7 gbWPnrH2ARs7JQu47UEkUK4nKRNoQzPeAgMTvMlSqovpqVoeHg1eR99b7WhnVTEXjfHR JzfInIW5txwlfiRtfnnU2GsqB3GqAmtqSs5NYPl+q1h1Zjfu+mOlmA8ufsBMfSrxeCnS /VoVNbLX1Hb2G07z4P0wu9ew9bwXh2nr7MD9vEGHx7kO8aTvoO/0KeLEMjKa4ZGcb4yN BqzJ4wJrucclSImC+H82JBpP2E/BODeTgDvPQxBKR7I40BvQVRShWlexg9XA10rG1vE9 3PfQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=uX+Ida6Aol8H0/p7hlnCkO3XjuYgfkhJIFzYeLXZC8o=; b=XMOgDDIyzN8nQt496FWx0ZSMQFLrWvsC8IbpNYUGNxciMuNt3TGGA/MKLuG37sB4Zo 9Ln5HAh8oBBmdJmtc08b2b0tTn8VjkhDBfswl+lrGsyINphYezLk3TSZvSzOqUf8S9X/ eT8wkdJI401kCBoBS+uUNX1YfIyGFChuW6RQnKUtQ/Hp6JzoqvVqCPatJgZ3EOi59IuK L9KqEo6IF5cXPdt93wKmQLKlIJal8Pu6PMLYpUBtQnJUjq3O+MzNw2WWorHnsn8vwr8N oVPADZO99rQcP9sO1iITwGhrhbkmLPqioI0miul+VBd+5OqgggDF052w10ZwPORkCXX+ dlkA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVa6v45/MTX4U2dPA8uHkMg+W2xsuDecFVVJVYfBXp6UtHWdIKk f4I60wALOznlCgcfu+4NDeA2o2Bu82dH6W2Z4xBO6Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzJHbIuWxS/sq12fwrq8yXfqjFb3bRAps3zZYclNaIFxnPyl5exw6SCDCF1Oe9kOW2+0bKe+cG8qh9DaxPxb28= X-Received: by 2002:a37:a8c3:: with SMTP id r186mr518702qke.37.1582826978185; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 10:09:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5D218BFB-0D6F-4F7D-858F-B571A67DC47F@leddy.net> In-Reply-To: From: Warren Kumari Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 13:09:01 -0500 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" , John Leddy , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden , "Zafar Ali (zali)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 18:09:48 -0000 On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 8:14 PM Brian E Carpenter wrote: [SNIP] > > It's possible that "penultimate" means something else, e.g. "ultimate". I= don't know. I've been puzzling over this language for months and it doesn'= t change. Maybe someone can finally post an explanation, but until they do,= I don't see how any WG Chair could assert rough consensus. An obviously or= ganised +1+1+1+1 campaign is not consensus. I don't know about you, but whe= n I see a message whose only content is "+1" I just delete it. Actually, when I see a message whose content is just "+1" (or something similar like "I support this"), and the sender hasn't been deeply involved in the conversation, I start thinking it is vote stuffing. If this happens repeatedly I become increasingly convinced of this. "We reject: kings, presidents, and voting. We believe in: rough consensus and running code." - we don't vote. Having a thousand people who have not made good technical points / provided substantive text / review / contributed to the discussion in a meaningful way suddenly say "I support this" is not just meaningless, it is actively harmful - who are they? what do they know? what does their opinion matter? why did someone feel it necessary to recruit them? This is true for a bunch of *known* people from the same company / group / organization / similar all suddenly arriving and supporting or objecting to a position without good (and distinct!) reasons. Over time people build up credibility - if Brian Carpenter (or Randy Bush or Russ Housley or John Scudder or ...) simply adds a "I support foo" (or "+1") message to a thread it *does* carry weight; their statement isn't made in a vacuum - I consider if they have demonstrated previous knowledge *in the topic*, if they have made useful contributions, etc. before deciding if their comment *means* anything, and what bias it carries. I can spend all day supporting , but unless I have *demonstrated* knowledge, skillset and a track record, my support isn't useful.. W > Brian > > > Moreover, this 'proof' can technically wait until the IETF last call or= even until the IESG ballot. I see little point in postponing the closing o= f the WGLC and advancing the document (of course, the document shepherd wil= l need to carefully write the section about the rough WG consensus). > > > > Finally, as far as I know, at the IETF we have no religion... else we w= ould still be running NCP or IPv4 :-) > > > > -=C3=A9ric > > > > =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message----- > > From: ipv6 on behalf of Warren Kumari > > > > ...%<...%<.... > > > > It doesn't really matter how many people say +1 for moving it forwa= rds > > -- if there are valid technical objections these have to be dealt w= ith > > - and I think that the relationship with RFC8200 falling into this > > category... > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > ipv6@ietf.org > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > -- I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf From nobody Thu Feb 27 10:39:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84EA13A053F; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 10:39:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=juniper.net header.b=nnC3k+m9; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=juniper.net header.b=Pyiomt/R Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xt0tWekHRqvh; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pablo, The question at hand is whether PSP is so crucial to SRv6 that it is worth = stretching the limits of RFC 8200 compliance. The emails that you site belo= w say that it is for the following reasons: 1. Because PSP is already deployed 2. Because PSP unburdens the ultimate segment router from the task of pr= ocessing and removing the SRH 3. Because PSP enables incremental deployment The first argument can be dismissed out of hand. Just because something has= been deployed doesn't mean that it adds value or even that it causes no ha= rm. The second argument is dubious. Given that the ultimate segment endpoint ha= s to remove the outer IPv6 header and forward the packet, the additional co= st of checking the Segments Left field and removing the SRH is minimal. The third argument was best articulated Dan Voyer in https://mailarchive.ie= tf.org/arch/msg/spring/ErcErN39RIlzkL5SKNVAeEWpnAI/ and deserves some consi= deration. In his deployment scenario, the ultimate segment endpoint: * Can process a SID, received as an IPv6 DA, on the fast path * Cannot process an SRH, even if Segments Left equal 0, on the fast pat= h. In this scenario, PSP keeps packets off of that device's slow path. While I have sympathy for Dan's dilemma, I wonder whether it is a good idea= to stretch the IPv6 standard to accommodate IPv6-challenged devices. Maybe a compromise is possible? Would it be possible to move discussion of = the PSP out of the Network programming draft and into a separate draft that= a) describes the use-case in which it is required and b) discourages its u= se in all other cases. = Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: spring On Behalf Of Pablo Camarillo (pcamar= il) Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 10:17 AM To: Gyan Mishra Cc: SPRING WG Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programmin= g-10.txt Gyan, As I (and other WG members) have explained in the past, PSP is not trying t= o provide any feature parity with MPLS. It enables new use-cases that have been provided by other members in the li= st. [1], [2] and [5]. >From operational perspective it is not complex as explained in [3]. There is substantial benefit. Four operators have deployed PSP, which prove= s the benefit. And additionally operators have expressed their value in [4] and [5]. [1].- https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/wTLJQkzC6xwSNPbhB84VH0mL= Xx0 [2].- https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/V0ZpjVLSVZxHaBwecXFxqJjl= g_c [3].- https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ssobwemrPz0uEZjvRCZP1e4l= _l0 [4].- https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/KXCBHT8Tpy17S5BsJXLBS35y= Zbk [5].- https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ErcErN39RIlzkL5SKNVAeEWp= nAI I don't see the point of starting a new thread from zero that discusses the= same thing. Cheers, Pablo. From: Gyan Mishra > Date: Tuesday, 25 February 2020 at 00:35 To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" > Cc: Ron Bonica >, SPRING WG= > Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programmin= g-10.txt PSP has historical context from PHP ( Penultimate Hop POP) in the MPLS worl= d. 20+ years ago when MPLS we originally developed the concept of PHP implicit= null reserved label value 0 was done to offload the burden of the egress P= E FEC destination to pop the entire label stack before forwarding the nativ= e IP packet to the CE. Hardware these days for the last 15 years or so are so advanced that the id= ea that you are saving processing on the egress PE has not existed for a lo= ng time. Even back then in both SP and enterprise space there were issues that aris= e related to PHB QOS egress queuing, that occurs on the PHP node that had = the MPLS shim popped, it cannot schedule on the topmost label via exp provi= der markings done on the ingress PE upon label imposition. A workaround to this issue was to set explicit null label value 0 and use p= ipe or uniform mode to tunnel the customer payload to the egress PE FEC des= tination called UHP ultimate hop node with topmost label intact. The concept of implicit null PHP concept did not bode well in the MPLS worl= d so I don't see why that feature parity would be added to a next gen proto= col that would be the future MPLS replacement. I agree with taking some of the good features and knobs from MPLS, but why = take the ones like implicit null with is really an archaic feature. My 2 cents Gyan On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 5:38 PM Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) > wrote: Ron, This is the 5th time that we have this discussion in the past five months. I consider those three questions as closed based on the previous discussion= . https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/yRkDJlXd71k0VUqagM3D77vYcFI/ Cheers, Pablo. From: Ron Bonica > Date: Monday, 24 February 2020 at 16:27 To: Andrew Alston >, Mark Smith >, Sander Steffann > Cc: SPRING WG >, "Pablo Camarillo (= pcamaril)" > Subject: RE: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programmin= g-10.txt Folks, We may need to ask the following questions: 1) Does PSP violate letter of RFC 8200? 2) Does PSP violate the spirit of RFC 8200? 3) Is PSP a good idea? The 6man WG, and not SPRING, should answer the first two questions. So I wi= ll avoid them an explore the third. At first glance, PSP adds no value. Once Segments Left has been decremented= to 0, the Routing header becomes a NOOP. So why bother to remove it? I see= the following arguments: 1) To save bandwidth between the penultimate and ultimate segment endp= oints. 2) To unburden the ultimate segment endpoint from the task of processi= ng the SRH 3) To unburden the ultimate segment endpoint from the task of removing= the SRH The first argument is weak. Routing headers should not be so large that the= bandwidth they consume is an issue. The second argument is also weak. Once the ultimate segment endpoint has ex= amined the Segments Left field, it can ignore the SRH. The ultimate segment= endpoint must be SRv6-aware, because it must process the SID in the IPv6 d= estination address field. Given that the ultimate segment endpoint is SRv6 = aware, it should be able to process the SRH on the fast path. The third argument is even weaker. The ultimate segment endpoint: - Has to remove the IPv6 tunnel header, anyway - Being closer to the edge, may be less heavily loaded than the pe= nultimate segment endpoint. Can anyone articulate a better justification for PSP? If not, why test the = limits of RFC 8200 over it? = Ron Juniper Business Use Only From: spring > On B= ehalf Of Andrew Alston Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 5:06 AM To: Mark Smith >; San= der Steffann > Cc: SPRING WG >; Pablo Camarillo (p= camaril) > Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programmin= g-10.txt I agree with the sentiments expressed below Andrew From: spring > On B= ehalf Of Mark Smith Sent: Monday, 24 February 2020 00:50 To: Sander Steffann > Cc: SPRING WG >; Pablo Camarillo (p= camaril) > Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programmin= g-10.txt On Mon, 24 Feb 2020, 07:47 Sander Steffann, > wrote: Hi, > We have published a new update to draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programm= ing. This revision simplifies the counters as per [1], clarifies the upper = layer header processing as per [2] and removes the reference to the OAM dra= ft [3]. I still oppose the segment popping flavours in section 4.16 without updatin= g RFC8200. I would expect that defying Internet Standard 86/RFC8200 means this ID need= s to have Experimental rather than Standards Track status. Cheers, Sander _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring -- Gyan Mishra Network Engineering & Technology Verizon Silver Spring, MD 20904 Phone: 301 502-1347 Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com --_000_DM6PR05MB634859429BEBC90FFA687936AEEB0DM6PR05MB6348namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Pablo,

 

The question at hand is whether PSP is so crucial to= SRv6 that it is worth stretching the limits of RFC 8200 compliance. The em= ails that you site below say that it is for the following reasons:

 

  1. Because PSP is already deployed
  2. Because PSP unbu= rdens the ultimate segment router from the task of processing and removing = the SRH
  3. Because PSP enables incremental deployment

 

The first argument can be dismissed out of hand. Jus= t because something has been deployed doesn’t mean that it adds value= or even that it causes no harm.

 

The second argument is dubious. Given that the ultim= ate segment endpoint has to remove the outer IPv6 header and forward the pa= cket, the additional cost of checking the Segments Left field and removing = the SRH is minimal.

 

The third argument was best articulated Dan Voyer in= https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ErcErN39RIlzkL5SKNVAeEWpnAI/ and deserves some consideration. In his deployment scenario, the ultimat= e segment endpoint:

 

  • Can process a SID, received as an IPv6 DA, on the fast path
  • Cannot process an SRH, even if Segments Left equal 0, on the fa= st path.

 

In this scenario, PSP keeps packets off of that devi= ce’s slow path.

 

While I have sympathy for Dan’s dilemma, I won= der whether it is a good idea to stretch the IPv6 standard to accommodate I= Pv6-challenged devices.

 

Maybe a compromise is possible? Would it be possible= to move discussion of the PSP out of the Network programming draft and int= o a separate draft that a) describes the use-case in which it is required a= nd b) discourages its use in all other cases.

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;            &nb= sp;           Ron

 


Juniper Business= Use Only

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> = On Behalf Of Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 10:17 AM
To: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming-10.txt

 

Gyan,

 

As I (and other WG members) have explained in the pa= st, PSP is not trying to provide any feature parity with MPLS.

 

It enables new use-cases that have been provided by = other members in the list. [1], [2] and [5].

From operational perspective it is not complex as ex= plained in [3].

There is substantial benefit. Four operators have de= ployed PSP, which proves the benefit.

And additionally operators have expressed their valu= e in [4] and [5].

 

[1].- https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/wTLJQkzC6xwSNPbhB84VH0mLXx0

[2].- https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/V0ZpjVLSVZxHaBwecXFxqJjlg_c

[3].- https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ssobwemrPz0uEZjvRCZP1e4l_l0

[4].- https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/KXCBHT8Tpy17S5BsJXLBS35yZbk

[5].- https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ErcErN39RIlzkL5SKNVAeEWpnAI

 

I don't see the point of starting a new thread fr= om zero that discusses the same thing.

 

Cheers,

Pablo.

 

 

 

PSP has historical contex= t from PHP ( Penultimate Hop POP) in the MPLS world.  

 

20+ years ago when MP= LS we originally developed the concept of PHP implicit null reserved label = value 0 was done to offload the burden of the egress PE FEC destination to = pop the entire label stack before forwarding the native IP packet to the CE.

 

Hardware these days for t= he last 15 years or so are so advanced that the idea that you are saving pr= ocessing on the egress PE has not existed for a long time.  

 

Even  back then in b= oth SP and enterprise space there were issues that arise related to PHB QOS= egress queuing,  that occurs on the PHP node that had the MPLS shim p= opped, it cannot schedule on the topmost label via exp provider markings done on the ingress PE upon label imposition. &n= bsp;

 

A workaround to this issu= e was to set explicit null label value 0 and use pipe or uniform mode to tu= nnel the customer payload to the egress PE FEC destination called UHP ultim= ate hop node with topmost label intact.  

 

The concept of implicit n= ull PHP concept did not bode well in the MPLS world so I don’t see wh= y that feature parity would be added to a next gen protocol that would be t= he future MPLS replacement.

 

I agree with taking some = of the good features and knobs from MPLS, but why take the ones like implic= it null with is really an archaic feature.

 

My 2 cents

 

Gyan

 

Ron,

 

This is the 5th time that we ha= ve this discussion in the past five months.

 

I consider those three questions as closed base= d on the previous discussion.

htt= ps://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/yRkDJlXd71k0VUqagM3D77vYcFI/<= o:p>

 

Cheers,

Pablo.

 

From: Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
Date: Monday, 24 February 2020 at 16:27
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alsto= n@liquidtelecom.com= >, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com= >, Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>, "Pablo Camarillo (pcama= ril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming-10.txt

 

Folks,

 

We may need to ask the following questions:

 

1)      Does PSP violate letter of RFC 8200?

2)      Does PSP violate the spirit of RFC 8200?

3)      Is PSP a good idea?

 

The 6man WG, and not SPRING, should answer the first two questions. So I wi= ll avoid them an explore the third.

 

At first glance, PSP adds no value. Once Segments Left has been decremented= to 0, the Routing header becomes a NOOP. So why bother to remove it? I see= the following arguments:

 

1)      To save bandwidth between the penultimate and ultimate segment endpo= ints.

2)      To unburden the ultimate segment endpoint from the task of processin= g the SRH

3)      To unburden the ultimate segment endpoint from the task of removing = the SRH

 

The first argument is weak. Routing headers should not be so large that the= bandwidth they consume is an issue.

 

The second argument is also weak. Once the ultimate segment endpoint has ex= amined the Segments Left field, it can ignore the SRH. The ultimate segment= endpoint must be SRv6-aware, because it must process the SID in the IPv6 d= estination address field. Given that the ultimate segment endpoint is SRv6 aware, it should be able to pro= cess the SRH on the fast path.

 

The third argument is even weaker. The ultimate segment endpoint:

-          Has to remove the IPv6 tunnel header, anyway

-          Being closer to the edge, may be less heavily loaded than the penult= imate segment endpoint.

 

Can anyone articulate a better justification for PSP? If not, why test the = limits of RFC 8200 over it?

 

            &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;             = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;      Ron

 

 

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Andrew Alston
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 5:06 AM
To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>; Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmar= c.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming-10.txt

 

I agree with the sentiments expressed below

 

Andrew

 

 

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Mark Smith
Sent: Monday, 24 February 2020 00:50
To: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril=3D40cis= co.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming-10.txt

 

 

On Mon, 24 Feb 2020, 07:47 Sander Steffann, <sander@steffann.nl> wrote:

Hi,

> We have published a new update to draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-progr= amming. This revision simplifies the counters as per [1], clarifies the upp= er layer header processing as per [2] and removes the reference to the OAM = draft [3].

I still oppose the segment popping flavours in section 4.16 without updatin= g RFC8200.

 

I would expect that defying Internet Standard 86/RFC8200 means this ID need= s to have Experimental rather than Standards Track status.

 

 

 


Cheers,
Sander

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spr= ing

_________________________= ______________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spr= ing

--

Gyan  Mishra

Network Engineering & Technology 

Verizon 

Silver Spring, MD 20904

Phone: 301 502-1347

Email: gyan.s.mishra@ve= rizon.com

 

 

--_000_DM6PR05MB634859429BEBC90FFA687936AEEB0DM6PR05MB6348namp_-- From nobody Thu Feb 27 10:59:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D9003A08EC for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 10:59:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0PyvM9bMuWnN for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 10:59:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x332.google.com (mail-ot1-x332.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::332]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 347253A08E5 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 10:59:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x332.google.com with SMTP id r16so221542otd.2 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 10:59:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=SVOa/CJjhdWR3bf1Ory34B3a1KHrsM01Z9qrUfntoKA=; b=fmb2kcbc3lNdTv322WSHqZ9BDyHyJyEU8kqUD5QPzMR5gdljWf4EUyMvuDaVyhmpjG 8OnuWuuKYKevzhyoR/JVBE7OU4jdGqY8RQLf10hZHLIsPRV/JOwbDrvVCyWTxjpUCPQz UOfYMRbCPIFhbXvDq7HTwX3j1g8Yd3fIlqO7ZF4ZWEpDhCKHHDCTXs9MtTjBZdlsRmZD XE3W34liXIp4g2m5WJFYv4RQFMAS9UOvgfcP7z5XGzU9N4A9qbXEDoFBVas5p2+4hqo8 v/LXedqyDunBdE4CltC9hWfYAhO37YDt1Yk5MVQVchvKDh8EzCO6rGByAeWFJJQmDmiR ygnQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=SVOa/CJjhdWR3bf1Ory34B3a1KHrsM01Z9qrUfntoKA=; b=RjTdGmftfMyEeV3wG+elaW/A5Dy4dllbHNzFvOQqda4uEYotv1g5E/qzFRXUTvraad JNRXMInnjlLPNXp/xW5Ii2t9ZTNsfj5nWJY425/EYX2BpdJOwhe5nTiDzcL2e99iCpTf BqL/9QE++J9zZtAohRHUCmSnbpQt/IsPk1P8DeP5HNGuwBGs7JcncPZuvLu4dngMFQHm fp5YFChr0gOlsbvaG5NvO2/Dy2EeKR3MD1gZy8EDVyilO6N+YWilDz3ynp9ffjmyHuFx UGVN77S8TD6t6ii3VAjqWuv2dvVpFTaJv2P7RAXowFlP053d+QT1dW4Zcz+8n/ahKUTr wEHg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWBG+zOXR7Q7j3X32NRUQmXBttVCtTJlZM0bnC1bhh2m/tX4Byw BzG5/ANaB/i7EZq/jWxH8KwRY2PWmaFeFOYcFEiP5A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxDzSWu3cUScqgoPc9hQ+ISvQAnSR3GUYqKUJ5V0PzpDj/+OXoaPSodKfqbEitGiFkqSNI7GjodIH6EMnMpXi4= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:6a06:: with SMTP id g6mr227332otn.305.1582829972289; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 10:59:32 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5D218BFB-0D6F-4F7D-858F-B571A67DC47F@leddy.net> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 19:59:22 +0100 Message-ID: To: Warren Kumari Cc: Brian E Carpenter , "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, John Leddy , Bob Hinden , "Zafar Ali (zali)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003d2481059f93529d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 18:59:37 -0000 --0000000000003d2481059f93529d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Warren, Excellent note !!! In the past I have been part of an employers forcing you to support a draft just to push it regardless if it was even in your area of interest ... leave alone expertise or your technical opinion about it. It is very unfortunate that IETF does not have a good way of retrieving judgement from real group of folks who understand given proposal. "+1" is just only one demonstration of it. Humming is another. Raising hands one more. We say there is no voting but while there is no formal ballot box nor even e-ballot version of it all of the above ways to gather "consensus" are examples of voting. Best, R. On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 7:10 PM Warren Kumari wrote: > On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 8:14 PM Brian E Carpenter > wrote: > > [SNIP] > > > > > It's possible that "penultimate" means something else, e.g. "ultimate". > I don't know. I've been puzzling over this language for months and it > doesn't change. Maybe someone can finally post an explanation, but until > they do, I don't see how any WG Chair could assert rough consensus. An > obviously organised +1+1+1+1 campaign is not consensus. I don't know abou= t > you, but when I see a message whose only content is "+1" I just delete it= . > > > Actually, when I see a message whose content is just "+1" (or > something similar like "I support this"), and the sender hasn't been > deeply involved in the conversation, I start thinking it is vote > stuffing. If this happens repeatedly I become increasingly convinced > of this. > "We reject: kings, presidents, and voting. We believe in: rough > consensus and running code." - we don't vote. Having a thousand people > who have not made good technical points / provided substantive text / > review / contributed to the discussion in a meaningful way suddenly > say "I support this" is not just meaningless, it is actively harmful - > who are they? what do they know? what does their opinion matter? why > did someone feel it necessary to recruit them? > This is true for a bunch of *known* people from the same company / > group / organization / similar all suddenly arriving and supporting or > objecting to a position without good (and distinct!) reasons. > > Over time people build up credibility - if Brian Carpenter (or Randy > Bush or Russ Housley or John Scudder or ...) simply adds a "I support > foo" (or "+1") message to a thread it *does* carry weight; their > statement isn't made in a vacuum - I consider if they have > demonstrated previous knowledge *in the topic*, if they have made > useful contributions, etc. before deciding if their comment *means* > anything, and what bias it carries. > > I can spend all day supporting , but unless I > have *demonstrated* knowledge, skillset and a track record, my support > isn't useful.. > > W > > > > Brian > > > > > Moreover, this 'proof' can technically wait until the IETF last call > or even until the IESG ballot. I see little point in postponing the closi= ng > of the WGLC and advancing the document (of course, the document shepherd > will need to carefully write the section about the rough WG consensus). > > > > > > Finally, as far as I know, at the IETF we have no religion... else we > would still be running NCP or IPv4 :-) > > > > > > -=C3=A9ric > > > > > > =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message----- > > > From: ipv6 on behalf of Warren Kumari < > warren@kumari.net> > > > > > > ...%<...%<.... > > > > > > It doesn't really matter how many people say +1 for moving it > forwards > > > -- if there are valid technical objections these have to be dealt > with > > > - and I think that the relationship with RFC8200 falling into thi= s > > > category... > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > > ipv6@ietf.org > > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > -- > I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad > idea in the first place. > This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing > regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair > of pants. > ---maf > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --0000000000003d2481059f93529d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Warren,

Excellent note !!!=C2=A0
<= div>
In the past I have been part of an employers forcing you= to support a draft just to push it regardless if it was even in your area = of interest ... leave alone expertise or your technical opinion about it.= =C2=A0

It is very unfortunate that IETF does not h= ave a good way of retrieving=C2=A0judgement from real group of folks who un= derstand given proposal.=C2=A0

"+1" is j= ust only one demonstration of it. Humming is another. Raising hands one mor= e. We say there is no voting but while there is no formal ballot box nor ev= en e-ballot version of it all of the above ways to gather "consensus&q= uot; are examples of voting.=C2=A0

Best,
R.


On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 7:10 PM Warren Kumari <<= a href=3D"mailto:warren@kumari.net">warren@kumari.net> wrote:
On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 a= t 8:14 PM Brian E Carpenter
<brian.= e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

[SNIP]

>
> It's possible that "penultimate" means something else, e= .g. "ultimate". I don't know. I've been puzzling over thi= s language for months and it doesn't change. Maybe someone can finally = post an explanation, but until they do, I don't see how any WG Chair co= uld assert rough consensus. An obviously organised +1+1+1+1 campaign is not= consensus. I don't know about you, but when I see a message whose only= content is "+1" I just delete it.


Actually, when I see a message whose content is just "+1" (or
something similar like "I support this"), and the sender hasn'= ;t been
deeply involved in the conversation, I start thinking it is vote
stuffing. If this happens repeatedly I become increasingly convinced
of this.
"We reject: kings, presidents, and voting. We believe in: rough
consensus and running code." - we don't vote. Having a thousand pe= ople
who have not made good technical points / provided substantive text /
review / contributed to the discussion in a meaningful way suddenly
say "I support this" is not just meaningless, it is actively harm= ful -
who are they? what do they know? what does their opinion matter? why
did someone feel it necessary to recruit them?
This is true for a bunch of *known* people from the same company /
group / organization / similar all suddenly arriving and supporting or
objecting to a position without good (and distinct!) reasons.

Over time people build up credibility -=C2=A0 if Brian Carpenter (or Randy<= br> Bush or Russ Housley or John Scudder or ...) simply adds a "I support<= br> foo" (or "+1") message to a thread it *does* carry weight; t= heir
statement isn't made in a vacuum - I consider if they have
demonstrated previous knowledge *in the topic*, if they have made
useful contributions, etc. before deciding if their comment *means*
anything, and what bias it carries.

I can spend all day supporting <insert some topic here>, but unless I=
have *demonstrated* knowledge, skillset and a track record, my support
isn't useful..

W


>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian
>
> > Moreover, this 'proof' can technically wait until the IET= F last call or even until the IESG ballot. I see little point in postponing= the closing of the WGLC and advancing the document (of course, the documen= t shepherd will need to carefully write the section about the rough WG cons= ensus).
> >
> > Finally, as far as I know, at the IETF we have no religion... els= e we would still be running NCP or IPv4 :-)
> >
> > -=C3=A9ric
> >
> > =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message-----
> > From: ipv6 <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>=
> >
> > ...%<...%<....
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It doesn't really matter how many people s= ay +1 for moving it forwards
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-- if there are valid technical objections the= se have to be dealt with
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- and I think that the relationship with RFC82= 00 falling into this
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0category...
> >
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------= ---
> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> > ipv6@ietf.org<= /a>
> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/ipv6
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------= ---
> >
>
--
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
idea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair
of pants.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0---maf

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
--0000000000003d2481059f93529d-- From nobody Thu Feb 27 11:07:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8FF83A091F for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:07:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A0tHrsTvaIOx for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:07:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x734.google.com (mail-qk1-x734.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::734]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EFF633A0926 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:07:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x734.google.com with SMTP id o28so453379qkj.9 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:07:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=ezKbPOpjeEX3BfF6qB7hhao+f1doJlnSq2FYcdnap78=; b=1JKHGDzX37EdcW0b5v2XsTsakv05lCmdGul9zRFzUROI1RL1zaAG5X0APFANx54Fcr ZJEwcuakdzQ2wBU5KW1ykdc1unIz9EDdqEFTKn0BnjCCss7ZoG5EVeF6pyHXhLGr5f+L tB3JaBfCmRHGRQS5WvmEfHhkk1kFtCNUwJ9JMG2DIz6JHdMEgihNHD+uuyhwxjmZkf1w XJf6B/AkF2WJxGaQNfsvlIx8UNeoYsgR06/+DBfVj2kd9scBE6+nMdDp8LC7H0L4D3Bb AnbyNZKj2++HjiBrEnQSS2O5JAQN6Z8dQg0es79E1OryuFd0qwSY8K+iN7rdR5f59gML /EIQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=ezKbPOpjeEX3BfF6qB7hhao+f1doJlnSq2FYcdnap78=; b=hAeSy7vj4G0FRJUyRKw3C+LyxM0zp/TCvW7Cf+QdZ8Va2h3Q2+yTLQc9NGLzW/CkLd X48tNQpwYObdgotF715IyaHrv3T89LYT6PJtwvlhZuDqcu6ghgm50R5/PXxBQEPCBC59 3PwMXxeX4lhDcm4HLebsJ0k/SCEA0UAfme0bn4ZmJz3XyGbN0+T+9u+zaBkHFkZ4A5Hl zGDiG53Y6bMn/166WGyOBux5ulOoqjQm7NFtvv4vbNzpM/LEOdUZkhYF8cKJMp4kQu/k 6o3Rbw964Zxb6xTGZljw8UjEF831ZW9UkWHzc23Ku4FAtSaULgc1LEb7MWp7lSLLhf7T qOmQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW9mgjCql4/584fitHIreJufmHbyRIV4ZoYi6Vj91a+pB9zX2Hc qXLR9xBnGJnSsQauy6s0D+ernw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwhtxsO2z/nk59hj+hMLEB+zammGgfa9FdIVc5BTLv3lvuF0qF899u5XcT99nHW/cOCxCVrVg== X-Received: by 2002:a37:9284:: with SMTP id u126mr880258qkd.470.1582830451068; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:07:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:18b:300:36ee:50ee:a3fe:ec9d:4bdb? ([2601:18b:300:36ee:50ee:a3fe:ec9d:4bdb]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e2sm3656145qkb.112.2020.02.27.11.07.30 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:07:30 -0800 (PST) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: <30908949-9150-4784-A0FD-69F92889FB3D@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_98CFFB82-C7EE-43AF-8460-F9C24F0F123E" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3622.0.6\)) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:07:29 -0500 In-Reply-To: Cc: Warren Kumari , "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden , "Zafar Ali (zali)" To: Robert Raszuk References: <5D218BFB-0D6F-4F7D-858F-B571A67DC47F@leddy.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3622.0.6) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 19:07:34 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_98CFFB82-C7EE-43AF-8460-F9C24F0F123E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Feb 27, 2020, at 1:59 PM, Robert Raszuk wrote: > It is very unfortunate that IETF does not have a good way of = retrieving judgement from real group of folks who understand given = proposal.=20 We do. It=E2=80=99s called =E2=80=9Csubstantive comments.=E2=80=9D > "+1" is just only one demonstration of it. Humming is another. Raising = hands one more. We say there is no voting but while there is no formal = ballot box nor even e-ballot version of it all of the above ways to = gather "consensus" are examples of voting.=20 Actually, the purpose of humming is not to make a decision, but to = figure out whether there is general consensus. If you ask for a hum = and you get a 50-50 response, there probably isn=E2=80=99t consensus, = and you might just say =E2=80=9Cwe don=E2=80=99t have consensus=E2=80=9D = and go on to figuring out how. If the =E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D hum has no = loud participants, you might say =E2=80=9Clooks like we=E2=80=99re good = to go, we=E2=80=99ll confirm on the list.=E2=80=9D If there=E2=80=99s = someone humming loudly no when everybody else is in favor, and you = don=E2=80=99t know why they=E2=80=99re humming that way, that=E2=80=99s = a good time to ask them if they are willing to explain. But bear in mind that humming does not take place on the mailing list, = and that consensus is called on the mailing list, not in the room. On the mailing list, people pretty much have to raise objections = verbally. No amount of +1s should be considered meaningful at all. = The work is chartered; the wg is supposed to do it. If there are no = objections, and people feel the document is ready, then it should move = forward, whether there are +1s or not. If objections are raised, and = they are substantive (that is, not opinion or conjecture), then they = have to be addressed. They can be addressed by saying =E2=80=9Cwe = considered that, and the working group as a whole agrees that the = problem exists, but it doesn=E2=80=99t need to be addressed because this = document is only applicable in a situation where the objection raised = doesn=E2=80=99t matter.=E2=80=9D Or it can add text to address the = objection, as Brian I think has suggested. Or it can do additional = work to address the problem, as Brian has also suggested. But the WG can=E2=80=99t simply ignore the objection. That is not what = =E2=80=9Crough consensus=E2=80=9D means. --Apple-Mail=_98CFFB82-C7EE-43AF-8460-F9C24F0F123E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On = Feb 27, 2020, at 1:59 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> = wrote:
It is = very unfortunate that IETF does not have a good way of = retrieving judgement from real group of folks who understand given = proposal. 

We do. =   It=E2=80=99s called =E2=80=9Csubstantive = comments.=E2=80=9D

"+1" is just only one demonstration = of it. Humming is another. Raising hands one more. We say there is no = voting but while there is no formal ballot box nor even e-ballot version = of it all of the above ways to gather "consensus" are examples of = voting. 

Actually, the purpose of humming is not to make a decision, = but to figure out whether there is general consensus.   If you ask = for a hum and you get a 50-50 response, there probably isn=E2=80=99t = consensus, and you might just say =E2=80=9Cwe don=E2=80=99t have = consensus=E2=80=9D and go on to figuring out how.   If the =E2=80=9Cn= o=E2=80=9D hum has no loud participants, you might say =E2=80=9Clooks = like we=E2=80=99re good to go, we=E2=80=99ll confirm on the list.=E2=80=9D=   If there=E2=80=99s someone humming loudly no when everybody else = is in favor, and you don=E2=80=99t know why they=E2=80=99re humming that = way, that=E2=80=99s a good time to ask them if they are willing to = explain.

But = bear in mind that humming does not take place on the mailing list, and = that consensus is called on the mailing list, not in the room.

On the mailing list, = people pretty much have to raise objections verbally.  No amount of = +1s should be considered meaningful at all.   The work is = chartered; the wg is supposed to do it.   If there are no = objections, and people feel the document is ready, then it should move = forward, whether there are +1s or not.   If objections are raised, = and they are substantive (that is, not opinion or conjecture), then they = have to be addressed.   They can be addressed by saying =E2=80=9Cwe = considered that, and the working group as a whole agrees that the = problem exists, but it doesn=E2=80=99t need to be addressed because this = document is only applicable in a situation where the objection raised = doesn=E2=80=99t matter.=E2=80=9D  Or it can add text to address the = objection, as Brian I think has suggested.   Or it can do = additional work to address the problem, as Brian has also = suggested.

But = the WG can=E2=80=99t simply ignore the objection.  That is not what = =E2=80=9Crough consensus=E2=80=9D means.

= --Apple-Mail=_98CFFB82-C7EE-43AF-8460-F9C24F0F123E-- From nobody Thu Feb 27 11:11:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AECCB3A0945 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:11:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AC_DIV_BONANZA=0.001, BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bmi8rmQ1rL6x for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:11:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x229.google.com (mail-oi1-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C60633A0940 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:11:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x229.google.com with SMTP id r16so316965oie.6 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:11:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=n5wUY7BTkhLbnIFdUuj9tf0oasB0DrvmM4cItCh3s3o=; b=MSoOfmM2tL25kySmZ416K12j8CjwQROJL0lRiB/3qo422n+7B7dEh/BHdQlJ9c09Go v9Q3EbbtJloChkuaLL84iVqqv9NNJGGmCNH+KaKk7jMguFxkMR0Vv2ILBoX/Ae8CccU1 wNxKz0mIbsKwK8KqBXecbUSfPj2Jwjro795moo6o+6xQ6D1ivt3e2kEVpzbtXpwOmIA3 V4MJgwTyAXtwR7n0jpk1gV66a5KjesIzQlFqhYBlWbVbP6Yzx6SV8pG4lbsJ03B/Nab0 IAC2UuwormEu+I8XgXiR8cSbJGLiSvd5TiYbY9e2Z2G4TghOLlO5xj1hQt07u0nt3lPu Ewxw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=n5wUY7BTkhLbnIFdUuj9tf0oasB0DrvmM4cItCh3s3o=; b=QOV4FsMdpBhvQQpKUJ8gqtYZa5Xpiiuo6OSiBzr7WKnW1SLVbFMlrZh7ElDFoz7/95 Gqz9pfsH+C2yLJwrV2aucDguHhR/6U10z3HfBDY6BsgWSAtirOTo6Gj4xU3oc/UC8NHa kWwVPeuEwc/+9yX0eVvY9JtatobFUG2sBOnWUm9dosBjaLCjlojrfnbNEHG6GqAotBR0 pZrDZpX8m0lEcOTtylNB387B1SRut3VvvBRYNuVO/SCyG3CTEtO7dRVbsM4Rc7/TYDzc 08QROlVQ/yWwW5SPEF18sREpIKOUOBziniK0br34dI3yJXPd81z1ECjhcdbtM/83xSqI fKXQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWymY+tbwozaQjEHo1EVnZyQnMnb+UgHJjztdWQz7+oU9sb4Rnb fBWlckrea/2rlabrE0jdqlCuqiXE4n538QRDEl7vIg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqypLsf0mmMda6S9IYD7OM1U/rJpCi5Z88fuurqODqb84VKLDP+uUd+MBzVkJDzAE/szN5rO4in7FVHQJ5XBA+M= X-Received: by 2002:a54:4510:: with SMTP id l16mr425459oil.70.1582830674678; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:11:14 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <158248836511.1031.1350509839394231473@ietfa.amsl.com> <7481061F-75A5-4E4D-80AE-40E1F933E94A@cisco.com> <1BB7ED35-98EC-4A73-92A3-AD043D462CF7@steffann.nl> <97141983-EDF7-4C1E-A8F1-4ADCD345BC5A@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 20:11:03 +0100 Message-ID: To: Ron Bonica Cc: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" , Gyan Mishra , "xiejingrong@huawei.com" , "daniel.voyer@bell.ca" , SPRING WG , 6man WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001aa653059f937c74" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 19:11:19 -0000 --0000000000001aa653059f937c74 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ron, How about we go the other way and really admit that some hardware just can not PSP at line rate ? But for that there is very simple solution - you advertise PSP depth of zero in IGP extensions and you are done. Both ISIS and OSPFv3 extensions support this already today. And as it has been said and illustrated it does not stretch RFC8200 at all. PSP is performed by node listed in DA of the arriving packet. Such node can do whatever it want with the outer header of the packet. Some folks try to punch holes in 8200 to cover their issues - is that in good spirit of IETF ? Your idea of taking piece of the consistent spec away is very broken as it now makes other documents inconsistent and blocks hardware where such function is supported today at line rate. Let the operator choose if he wants PSP or not and move on ... Best, R. On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 7:39 PM Ron Bonica wrote: > Pablo, > > > > The question at hand is whether PSP is so crucial to SRv6 that it is wort= h > stretching the limits of RFC 8200 compliance. The emails that you site > below say that it is for the following reasons: > > > > 1. Because PSP is already deployed > 2. Because PSP unburdens the ultimate segment router from the task of > processing and removing the SRH > 3. Because PSP enables incremental deployment > > > > The first argument can be dismissed out of hand. Just because something > has been deployed doesn=E2=80=99t mean that it adds value or even that it= causes no > harm. > > > > The second argument is dubious. Given that the ultimate segment endpoint > has to remove the outer IPv6 header and forward the packet, the additiona= l > cost of checking the Segments Left field and removing the SRH is minimal. > > > > The third argument was best articulated Dan Voyer in > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ErcErN39RIlzkL5SKNVAeEWpnAI/ > and deserves some consideration. In his deployment scenario, the ultimate > segment endpoint: > > > > - Can process a SID, received as an IPv6 DA, on the fast path > - Cannot process an SRH, even if Segments Left equal 0, on the fast > path. > > > > In this scenario, PSP keeps packets off of that device=E2=80=99s slow pat= h. > > > > While I have sympathy for Dan=E2=80=99s dilemma, I wonder whether it is a= good > idea to stretch the IPv6 standard to accommodate IPv6-challenged devices. > > > > Maybe a compromise is possible? Would it be possible to move discussion o= f > the PSP out of the Network programming draft and into a separate draft th= at > a) describes the use-case in which it is required and b) discourages its > use in all other cases. > > > > > Ron > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > *From:* spring *On Behalf Of *Pablo Camarillo > (pcamaril) > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 25, 2020 10:17 AM > *To:* Gyan Mishra > *Cc:* SPRING WG > *Subject:* Re: [spring] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt > > > > Gyan, > > > > As I (and other WG members) have explained in the past, PSP is not trying > to provide any feature parity with MPLS. > > > > It enables new use-cases that have been provided by other members in the > list. [1], [2] and [5]. > > From operational perspective it is not complex as explained in [3]. > > There is substantial benefit. Four operators have deployed PSP, which > proves the benefit. > > And additionally operators have expressed their value in [4] and [5]. > > > > [1].- > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/wTLJQkzC6xwSNPbhB84VH0mLXx0 > > [2].- > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/V0ZpjVLSVZxHaBwecXFxqJjlg_c > > [3].- > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ssobwemrPz0uEZjvRCZP1e4l_l0 > > [4].- > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/KXCBHT8Tpy17S5BsJXLBS35yZbk > > [5].- > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ErcErN39RIlzkL5SKNVAeEWpnAI > > > > I don't see the point of starting a new thread from zero that discusses > the same thing. > > > > Cheers, > > Pablo. > > > > *From: *Gyan Mishra > *Date: *Tuesday, 25 February 2020 at 00:35 > *To: *"Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" > *Cc: *Ron Bonica , SPRING WG > *Subject: *Re: [spring] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt > > > > > > PSP has historical context from PHP ( Penultimate Hop POP) in the MPLS > world. > > > > 20+ years ago when MPLS we originally developed the concept of PHP > implicit null reserved label value 0 was done to offload the burden of th= e > egress PE FEC destination to pop the entire label stack before forwarding > the native IP packet to the CE. > > > > Hardware these days for the last 15 years or so are so advanced that the > idea that you are saving processing on the egress PE has not existed for = a > long time. > > > > Even back then in both SP and enterprise space there were issues that > arise related to PHB QOS egress queuing, that occurs on the PHP node tha= t > had the MPLS shim popped, it cannot schedule on the topmost label via exp > provider markings done on the ingress PE upon label imposition. > > > > A workaround to this issue was to set explicit null label value 0 and use > pipe or uniform mode to tunnel the customer payload to the egress PE FEC > destination called UHP ultimate hop node with topmost label intact. > > > > The concept of implicit null PHP concept did not bode well in the MPLS > world so I don=E2=80=99t see why that feature parity would be added to a = next gen > protocol that would be the future MPLS replacement. > > > > I agree with taking some of the good features and knobs from MPLS, but wh= y > take the ones like implicit null with is really an archaic feature. > > > > My 2 cents > > > > Gyan > > > > On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 5:38 PM Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) 40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > Ron, > > > > This is the 5th time that we have this discussion in the past five months= . > > > > I consider those three questions as closed based on the previous > discussion. > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/yRkDJlXd71k0VUqagM3D77vYcFI/ > > > > > Cheers, > > Pablo. > > > > *From: *Ron Bonica > *Date: *Monday, 24 February 2020 at 16:27 > *To: *Andrew Alston , Mark Smith < > markzzzsmith@gmail.com>, Sander Steffann > *Cc: *SPRING WG , "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" < > pcamaril@cisco.com> > *Subject: *RE: [spring] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt > > > > Folks, > > > > We may need to ask the following questions: > > > > 1) Does PSP violate letter of RFC 8200? > > 2) Does PSP violate the spirit of RFC 8200? > > 3) Is PSP a good idea? > > > > The 6man WG, and not SPRING, should answer the first two questions. So I > will avoid them an explore the third. > > > > At first glance, PSP adds no value. Once Segments Left has been > decremented to 0, the Routing header becomes a NOOP. So why bother to > remove it? I see the following arguments: > > > > 1) To save bandwidth between the penultimate and ultimate segment > endpoints. > > 2) To unburden the ultimate segment endpoint from the task of > processing the SRH > > 3) To unburden the ultimate segment endpoint from the task of > removing the SRH > > > > The first argument is weak. Routing headers should not be so large that > the bandwidth they consume is an issue. > > > > The second argument is also weak. Once the ultimate segment endpoint has > examined the Segments Left field, it can ignore the SRH. The ultimate > segment endpoint must be SRv6-aware, because it must process the SID in t= he > IPv6 destination address field. Given that the ultimate segment endpoint = is > SRv6 aware, it should be able to process the SRH on the fast path. > > > > The third argument is even weaker. The ultimate segment endpoint: > > - Has to remove the IPv6 tunnel header, anyway > > - Being closer to the edge, may be less heavily loaded than the > penultimate segment endpoint. > > > > Can anyone articulate a better justification for PSP? If not, why test th= e > limits of RFC 8200 over it? > > > > > Ron > > > > > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > *From:* spring *On Behalf Of *Andrew Alston > *Sent:* Monday, February 24, 2020 5:06 AM > *To:* Mark Smith ; Sander Steffann < > sander@steffann.nl> > *Cc:* SPRING WG ; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) 40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> > *Subject:* Re: [spring] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt > > > > I agree with the sentiments expressed below > > > > Andrew > > > > > > *From:* spring *On Behalf Of *Mark Smith > *Sent:* Monday, 24 February 2020 00:50 > *To:* Sander Steffann > *Cc:* SPRING WG ; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) < > pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> > *Subject:* Re: [spring] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt > > > > > > On Mon, 24 Feb 2020, 07:47 Sander Steffann, wrote: > > Hi, > > > We have published a new update to > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming. This revision simplifies the > counters as per [1], clarifies the upper layer header processing as per [= 2] > and removes the reference to the OAM draft [3]. > > I still oppose the segment popping flavours in section 4.16 without > updating RFC8200. > > > > I would expect that defying Internet Standard 86/RFC8200 means this ID > needs to have Experimental rather than Standards Track status. > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > Sander > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > > -- > > Gyan Mishra > > Network Engineering & Technology > > Verizon > > Silver Spring, MD 20904 > > Phone: 301 502-1347 > > Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --0000000000001aa653059f937c74 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ron,

How about we go the other way and = really admit that some hardware just can not PSP at line rate ?=C2=A0
=

But for that there is very simple solution - you advert= ise PSP depth of zero in IGP extensions and you are done.=C2=A0
<= br>
Both ISIS and OSPFv3 extensions support this already today.= =C2=A0

And as it has been said and illustrated it = does not stretch=C2=A0RFC8200 at all. PSP is performed by node listed in DA= of the arriving packet. Such node can do whatever it want with the outer h= eader of the packet. Some folks try to punch holes in 8200 to cover their i= ssues - is that in good spirit of IETF ?=C2=A0

You= r idea of taking piece of the consistent spec away is very broken as it now= makes other documents inconsistent and blocks hardware where such function= is supported today at line rate.=C2=A0

Let the op= erator choose if he wants PSP or not and move on ...=C2=A0

Best,
R.








On Thu, Feb = 27, 2020 at 7:39 PM Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Pablo,

=C2=A0

The question at hand is whether PSP is so crucial to= SRv6 that it is worth stretching the limits of RFC 8200 compliance. The em= ails that you site below say that it is for the following reasons:

=C2=A0

  1. Because PSP is already deployed=
  2. Because PSP unburdens the ultimate segme= nt router from the task of processing and removing the SRH
  3. Because PSP enables incremental deployment<= u>

=C2=A0

The first argument can be dismissed out of hand. Jus= t because something has been deployed doesn=E2=80=99t mean that it adds val= ue or even that it causes no harm.

=C2=A0

The second argument is dubious. Given that the ultim= ate segment endpoint has to remove the outer IPv6 header and forward the pa= cket, the additional cost of checking the Segments Left field and removing = the SRH is minimal.

=C2=A0

The third argument was best articulated Dan Voyer in= https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ErcErN39RIlzkL5SKNVAeEWpnAI/ and deserves some consideration. In his deployment scenario, the ultimat= e segment endpoint:

=C2=A0

  • Can process a SID, received as an IPv6 DA, on= the fast path
  • Cannot proce= ss an SRH, even if Segments Left equal 0, on the fast path.

=C2=A0

In this scenario, PSP keeps packets off of that devi= ce=E2=80=99s slow path.

=C2=A0

While I have sympathy for Dan=E2=80=99s dilemma, I w= onder whether it is a good idea to stretch the IPv6 standard to accommodate= IPv6-challenged devices.

=C2=A0

Maybe a compromise is possible? Would it be possible= to move discussion of the PSP out of the Network programming draft and int= o a separate draft that a) describes the use-case in which it is required a= nd b) discourages its use in all other cases.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Ron=

=C2=A0


Juniper Business Use Only

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Beha= lf Of Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 10:17 AM
To: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming-10.txt

=C2=A0

Gyan,

=C2=A0

As I (and other WG members) have explained in the pa= st, PSP is not trying to provide any feature parity with MPLS.

=C2=A0

It enables new use-cases that have been provided by = other members in the list. [1], [2] and [5].

From operational perspective it is not complex as ex= plained in [3].

There is substantial benefit. Four operators have de= ployed PSP, which proves the benefit.

And additionally operators have expressed their valu= e in [4] and [5].

=C2=A0

[1].- https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/wTLJQkzC6xwSNPbhB84VH0mLXx0

[2].- https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/V0ZpjVLSVZxHaBwecXFxqJjlg_c

[3].- https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ssobwemrPz0uEZjvRCZP1e4l_l0

[4].- https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/KXCBHT8Tpy17S5BsJXLBS35yZbk

[5].- https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ErcErN39RIlzkL5SKNVAeEWpnAI

=C2=A0

I don't see the point of starting a new thread from zero that discus= ses the same thing.

=C2=A0

Cheers,

Pablo.

=C2=A0

From: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, 25 February 2020 at 00:35
To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pc= amaril@cisco.com><= br> Cc: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>, SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org&= gt;
Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming-10.txt

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

PSP has historical conte= xt from PHP ( Penultimate Hop POP) in the MPLS world. =C2=A0<= /p>

=C2=A0

20+ years ago when MPLS = we originally developed the concept of PHP implicit null reserved label val= ue 0 was done to offload the burden of the egress PE FEC destination to pop= the entire label stack before forwarding the native IP packet to the CE.

=C2=A0

Hardware these days for = the last 15 years or so are so advanced that the idea that you are saving p= rocessing on the egress PE has not existed for a long time. =C2=A0

=C2=A0

Even =C2=A0back then in = both SP and enterprise space there were issues that arise related to PHB QO= S egress queuing, =C2=A0that occurs on the PHP node that had the MPLS shim = popped, it cannot schedule on the topmost label via exp provider markings done on the ingress PE upon label imposition. = =C2=A0

=C2=A0

A workaround to this iss= ue was to set explicit null label value 0 and use pipe or uniform mode to t= unnel the customer payload to the egress PE FEC destination called UHP ulti= mate hop node with topmost label intact. =C2=A0

=C2=A0

The concept of implicit = null PHP concept did not bode well in the MPLS world so I don=E2=80=99t see= why that feature parity would be added to a next gen protocol that would b= e the future MPLS replacement.

=C2=A0

I agree with taking some= of the good features and knobs from MPLS, but why take the ones like impli= cit null with is really an archaic feature.

=C2=A0

My 2 cents=

=C2=A0

Gyan

=C2=A0

On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at = 5:38 PM Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> w= rote:

Ron,

=C2=A0

This is the 5th=C2=A0time that we ha= ve this discussion in the past five months.

=C2=A0

I consider those three questions as closed base= d on the previous discussion.

htt= ps://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/yRkDJlXd71k0VUqagM3D77vYcFI/<= u>

=C2=A0

Cheers,

Pablo.

=C2=A0

From: Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
Date: Monday, 24 February 2020 at 16:27
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@= liquidtelecom.com>= , Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>, Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>, "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)= " <<= span style=3D"font-size:12pt">pcamaril@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming-10.txt

=C2=A0

Folks,

=C2=A0

We may need to ask the following questions:

=C2=A0

1)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Does PSP violate letter of RFC 8200?

2)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Does PSP violate the spirit of RFC 8200?

3)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Is PSP a good idea?

=C2=A0

The 6man WG, and not SPRING, should answer the first two questions. So I wi= ll avoid them an explore the third.

=C2=A0

At first glance, PSP adds no value. Once Segments Left has been decremented= to 0, the Routing header becomes a NOOP. So why bother to remove it? I see= the following arguments:

=C2=A0

1)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 To save bandwidth between the penultimate and ultimate segment endpo= ints.

2)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 To unburden the ultimate segment endpoint from the task of processin= g the SRH

3)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 To unburden the ultimate segment endpoint from the task of removing = the SRH

=C2=A0

The first argument is weak. Routing headers should not be so large that the= bandwidth they consume is an issue.

=C2=A0

The second argument is also weak. Once the ultimate segment endpoint has ex= amined the Segments Left field, it can ignore the SRH. The ultimate segment= endpoint must be SRv6-aware, because it must process the SID in the IPv6 d= estination address field. Given that the ultimate segment endpoint is SRv6 aware, it should be able to pro= cess the SRH on the fast path.

=C2=A0

The third argument is even weaker. The ultimate segment endpoint:=

-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Has to remove the IPv6 tunnel header, anyway

-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 Being closer to the edge, may be less heavily loaded than the penult= imate segment endpoint.

=C2=A0

Can anyone articulate a better justification for PSP? If not, why test the = limits of RFC 8200 over it?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Ron

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Juniper Business Use Only<= u>

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Andrew Alston
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 5:06 AM
To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>; Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmar= c.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming-10.txt

=C2=A0

I agree with the sentiments expressed below

=C2=A0

Andrew

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Mark Smith
Sent: Monday, 24 February 2020 00:50
To: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril=3D40cis= co.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming-10.txt

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Mon, 24 Feb 2020, 07:47 Sander Steffann, <sander@steffann.nl> wrote:

Hi,

> We have published a new update to draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-progr= amming. This revision simplifies the counters as per [1], clarifies the upp= er layer header processing as per [2] and removes the reference to the OAM = draft [3].

I still oppose the segment popping flavours in section 4.16 without updatin= g RFC8200.

=C2=A0

I would expect that defying Internet Standard 86/RFC8200 means this ID need= s to have Experimental rather than Standards Track status.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0


Cheers,
Sander

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spr= ing

________________________= _______________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spr= ing

--

Gyan= =C2=A0 Mishra

Netwo= rk Engineering & Technology=C2=A0

Veriz= on=C2=A0

Silve= r Spring, MD 20904

Phone= : 301 502-1347

Email= : gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

_______________________________________________
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--0000000000001aa653059f937c74-- From nobody Thu Feb 27 11:28:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C54403A09EB; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:28:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KYwEgq-4cQ2B; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:27:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 337773A09E6; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:27:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48T2kl08Wtz1ntn3; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:27:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1582831679; bh=dQ8ex5SMv4OPugd02piepyqTnJNkgB3zFv+ackKJQlE=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=nwX7qxm7H4bj10bLTcDrKoQ+nj0lihocSiQmIEzQSazyNN3JJM5EZRXlOy7ImZKTA ZIICxL5plhGbifrr9v0J2EaXkHjCVgLFEumRu+ehkHY/MM8U3DzxgNAIiosEIE9awp YPsW3wtZqsdHvQoBmsUd89ew2sWsp5xx/jA1c9I0= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [10.47.230.213] (unknown [213.50.241.180]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 48T2kh66DYz1nscX; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:27:56 -0800 (PST) To: Ted Lemon Cc: SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden , "Zafar Ali (zali)" , Warren Kumari References: <5D218BFB-0D6F-4F7D-858F-B571A67DC47F@leddy.net> <30908949-9150-4784-A0FD-69F92889FB3D@fugue.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:27:54 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <30908949-9150-4784-A0FD-69F92889FB3D@fugue.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 19:28:01 -0000 THere is one nuance that is worth noting. It is not for the case of a controversial document. Rather, the case where +1 can be useful is when the question is whether the working group even cares about the document. I have had several cases of calls for adoption or WG last call where there was almost no response on the mailing list. In the absence of decent indication, I as chair feel compleed to say "no, I do not see enough support to adopt / advance / ... this document". In that situation, even +1s can help. (And yes, I do watch for the case of all the +1s coming from the same company as the author, and then start judging whether they are folks who participate, along the lines Warren outlined.) Yours, Joel On 2/27/2020 2:07 PM, Ted Lemon wrote: > On Feb 27, 2020, at 1:59 PM, Robert Raszuk > wrote: >> It is very unfortunate that IETF does not have a good way of >> retrieving judgement from real group of folks who understand given >> proposal. > > We do.   It’s called “substantive comments.†> >> "+1" is just only one demonstration of it. Humming is another. Raising >> hands one more. We say there is no voting but while there is no formal >> ballot box nor even e-ballot version of it all of the above ways to >> gather "consensus" are examples of voting. > > Actually, the purpose of humming is not to make a decision, but to > figure out whether there is general consensus.   If you ask for a hum > and you get a 50-50 response, there probably isn’t consensus, and you > might just say “we don’t have consensus†and go on to figuring out how. >   If the “no†hum has no loud participants, you might say “looks like > we’re good to go, we’ll confirm on the list.†  If there’s someone > humming loudly no when everybody else is in favor, and you don’t know > why they’re humming that way, that’s a good time to ask them if they are > willing to explain. > > But bear in mind that humming does not take place on the mailing list, > and that consensus is called on the mailing list, not in the room. > > On the mailing list, people pretty much have to raise objections > verbally.  No amount of +1s should be considered meaningful at all. > The work is chartered; the wg is supposed to do it.   If there are no > objections, and people feel the document is ready, then it should move > forward, whether there are +1s or not.   If objections are raised, and > they are substantive (that is, not opinion or conjecture), then they > have to be addressed.   They can be addressed by saying “we considered > that, and the working group as a whole agrees that the problem exists, > but it doesn’t need to be addressed because this document is only > applicable in a situation where the objection raised doesn’t matter.†>  Or it can add text to address the objection, as Brian I think has > suggested.   Or it can do additional work to address the problem, as > Brian has also suggested. > > But the WG can’t simply ignore the objection.  That is not what “rough > consensus†means. > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > From nobody Thu Feb 27 11:42:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 551933A0A4F for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:42:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WbpHz9HKdDeI for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:41:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x729.google.com (mail-qk1-x729.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::729]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 341C53A0A48 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:41:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x729.google.com with SMTP id f140so560307qke.11 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:41:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=qPFB3LM9YGoiqqWnthfSVXrJ44jdxR/BRJMqimPLORo=; b=h1Xx+OWA556YEwDwlF5i8p51tYtb/V9VivnhXxVOTF3Kxqm6o4nMbZaj3HDRfLWUoN c0ztuIYqeu2T76BVE40nmfIMo5pxLPLzKjLne8D3+zO/i4wpu5tYzGqebyctpDWR3X77 sGAJKouBWTRvXVEfWvNBSjmNwNqp/TQJ1c8F+4xPgXra0yDQ0dxGpG59qsSHIaWAjooQ OerH4nDaOkiXAYInYNPBR3n7vJiOeLhmmqSlDTUjG34D11ZOtI6bwRk7SvZ9APdE0HBK nS3lS270A49vKjanV/9TugVKaJrNKJMHEkzdtfTrrFLilEB5uNZuAp5BdFB3so+LdUTT 2Y7Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=qPFB3LM9YGoiqqWnthfSVXrJ44jdxR/BRJMqimPLORo=; b=rXt5q1ULQ76YHXxAszNpLPNgGU3vULmEFH6SKpXntVb4WiUplfvPGni6iC2JBlX43+ YUTGmY7t4xpohhBjixSlfkytHt5Qa1L+gymkUw3p84gSRwaEkzJ2mFeDPuSZUA3eAPwB UakOiiuHcu+xuKkHtR7UFGzRWoam6PtmQhlFs0vmMxKKQUbCLXiuRDc/wAuBcYsDUCnA f+S7haBQc2YpRvl3mRux5hm+xmtbPGaZ1hgyITazK5EvSbJKfkwlRHVJuVtMKC0web+/ e976Imn8Bi08frxV0+igQAE2K6+CIs85e/DNzEBE5pffrF6XjgElYKrnAoeAFDrQvJ5N XLMg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUXPbkoDsTY5LybjR+O0sbpNYr7kqgaI6t/62DAHZF51gcxy6KB toVImymxCLtrhAumD0Bh7GsOhw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwjxF+Rov/bTyKAp2vE9jCy1oWBw7cm2YYaA0cEGqwDzYu/UPrPS0PBaRtj/KKD5ODimaHIxQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:c11:: with SMTP id l17mr1054073qki.53.1582832517283; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:41:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:18b:300:36ee:50ee:a3fe:ec9d:4bdb? ([2601:18b:300:36ee:50ee:a3fe:ec9d:4bdb]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a18sm2705507qkg.48.2020.02.27.11.41.56 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:41:56 -0800 (PST) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: <6EE88981-E5BA-4570-9A19-25C9DA00CCC5@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_FEBA4609-D2FD-4E1D-9B43-A3BBB2571128" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3622.0.6\)) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:41:55 -0500 In-Reply-To: Cc: SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden , "Zafar Ali (zali)" , Warren Kumari To: "Joel M. Halpern" References: <5D218BFB-0D6F-4F7D-858F-B571A67DC47F@leddy.net> <30908949-9150-4784-A0FD-69F92889FB3D@fugue.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3622.0.6) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 19:42:01 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_FEBA4609-D2FD-4E1D-9B43-A3BBB2571128 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Feb 27, 2020, at 2:27 PM, Joel M. Halpern = wrote: > Rather, the case where +1 can be useful is when the question is = whether the working group even cares about the document. I have had = several cases of calls for adoption or WG last call where there was = almost no response on the mailing list. In the absence of decent = indication, I as chair feel compleed to say "no, I do not see enough = support to adopt / advance / ... this document". > In that situation, even +1s can help. (And yes, I do watch for the = case of all the +1s coming from the same company as the author, and then = start judging whether they are folks who participate, along the lines = Warren outlined.) In my experience this is actually the wrong thing to do. If the work = was chartered, and a bunch of people go off and do the work, and then by = the time the work is done the working group has lost momentum other than = those people, saying =E2=80=9COh, I guess nobody cares, we won=E2=80=99t = publish=E2=80=9D is the wrong outcome. --Apple-Mail=_FEBA4609-D2FD-4E1D-9B43-A3BBB2571128 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On = Feb 27, 2020, at 2:27 PM, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>= wrote:
Rather, the = case where +1 can be useful is when the question is whether the working = group even cares about the document.  I have had several cases of = calls for adoption or WG last call where there was almost no response on = the mailing list.  In the absence of decent indication, I as chair = feel compleed to say "no, I do not see enough support to adopt / advance = / ... this document".
In that situation, even +1s can help.  (And yes, I do = watch for the case of all the +1s coming from the same company as the = author, and then start judging whether they are folks who participate, = along the lines Warren outlined.)

In my experience this is actually the wrong = thing to do.  If the work was chartered, and a bunch of people go = off and do the work, and then by the time the work is done the working = group has lost momentum other than those people, saying =E2=80=9COh, I = guess nobody cares, we won=E2=80=99t publish=E2=80=9D is the wrong = outcome.

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Thu, 27 Feb 2020 19:43:48 +0000 From: Haoyu Song To: "Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" , "ippm-chairs@ietf.org" CC: "spring@ietf.org" , "ippm@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Monitoring metric to detect and locate congestion Thread-Index: AdXsd9MS3uEh95p5QyK2WBDxA74xnQBK4HLQ Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 19:43:47 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=haoyu.song@futurewei.com; x-originating-ip: [12.111.81.95] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 85191fe6-8baf-4161-4900-08d7bbbd5d19 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR13MB2407: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-forefront-prvs: 03264AEA72 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(4636009)(346002)(39850400004)(136003)(376002)(366004)(396003)(199004)(189003)(2906002)(71200400001)(66946007)(8936002)(76116006)(52536014)(8676002)(81166006)(81156014)(5660300002)(4326008)(9326002)(316002)(44832011)(53546011)(6506007)(66446008)(66556008)(110136005)(64756008)(966005)(86362001)(54906003)(478600001)(7696005)(26005)(55016002)(186003)(9686003)(33656002)(66476007); 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boundary="_000_BYAPR13MB2485E450C9A230E4A54104769AEB0BYAPR13MB2485namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: Futurewei.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 85191fe6-8baf-4161-4900-08d7bbbd5d19 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 27 Feb 2020 19:43:48.0016 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 0fee8ff2-a3b2-4018-9c75-3a1d5591fedc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: uulydMhbZOZabRYe3PizqKGYLyJlvQo5Lvatr9pDxcYjAxqxJycq7kP/9tojX+3kifEffMgXS6txs8mPG3kOgA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR13MB2407 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Monitoring metric to detect and locate congestion X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 19:43:57 -0000 --_000_BYAPR13MB2485E450C9A230E4A54104769AEB0BYAPR13MB2485namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ruediger, I like the general idea that using pre-determined paths in SR to collect pe= rformance metrics. I think this approach provides some unique benefits comp= ared with the other approaches. It is also coincident with some of related = research work I'm doing. Here are some thoughts I have. 1. I think IOAM could be used as the standard approach for such probing = packets. It can collect the performance metrics mentioned in the draft and = does more. 2. An interesting problem raised by the draft but not fully addressed is= the method to plan the optimal paths. There is a work called INT-PATH (htt= ps://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8737529) which applies Eulerian Path algo= rithm to find the minimum set of paths with network-wide coverage. However,= the problem here seems different: you need path coverage redundancy. My qu= estion is: do we really need the redundancy to achieve the measurement goal= ? If so, what's the best planning algorithm should be? In a real and large = scale network, we have constraint on where the probing device(s) can be pla= ced, and we usually want to monitoring the entire network, so an efficient = algorithm is necessary. Best regards, Haoyu From: ippm On Behalf Of Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 11:55 PM To: ippm-chairs@ietf.org Cc: spring@ietf.org; ippm@ietf.org Subject: [ippm] Monitoring metric to detect and locate congestion Dear IPPM (and SPRING) participants, I'm solliciting interest in a new network monitoring metric which allows to= detect and locate congested interfaces. Important properties are * Same scalability as ICMP ping in the sense one measurement relation r= equired per monitored connection * Adds detection and location of congested interfaces as compared to IC= MP ping (otherwise measured metrics are compatible with ICMP ping) * Requires Segment Routing (which means, measurement on forwarding laye= r, no other interaction with passed routers - in opposite to ICMP ping) * Active measurement (may be deployed using a single sender&receiver or= separate sender and receiver, Segment Routing allows for both options) I'd be happy to present the draft in Vancouver.. If there's community inter= est. Please read and comment. You'll find slides at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/slides-105-ippm-14-draft= -geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-00 Draft url: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring/ Regards, Ruediger --_000_BYAPR13MB2485E450C9A230E4A54104769AEB0BYAPR13MB2485namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Ruediger,

 

I like the general idea that using pre-determined pa= ths in SR to collect performance metrics. I think this approach provides so= me unique benefits compared with the other approaches. It is also coinciden= t with some of related research work I’m doing.

Here are some thoughts I have.

  1. I think IOAM could be used as the standard approach for such probing = packets. It can collect the performance metrics mentioned in the draft and = does more.
  2. An interesting problem raised by the draft but not fu= lly addressed is the method to plan the optimal paths. There is a work call= ed INT-PATH (https= ://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8737529) which applies Eulerian Path algorithm to find the minimum set of paths wit= h network-wide coverage. However, the problem here seems different: you nee= d path coverage redundancy. My question is: do we really need the redundanc= y to achieve the measurement goal? If so, what’s the best planning algorithm should be? In a real and l= arge scale network, we have constraint on where the probing device(s) can b= e placed, and we usually want to monitoring the entire network, so an effic= ient algorithm is necessary.       

 

Best regards,

Haoyu

 

From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org> O= n Behalf Of Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 11:55 PM
To: ippm-chairs@ietf.org
Cc: spring@ietf.org; ippm@ietf.org
Subject: [ippm] Monitoring metric to detect and locate congestion

 

Dear IPPM (and SPRING) participant= s,

 

I’m solliciting interest in a new network moni= toring metric which allows to detect and locate congested interfaces. Impor= tant properties are

  • Same scalability as ICMP ping in the sense one measurement relation r= equired per monitored connection
  • Adds detection and lo= cation of congested interfaces as compared to ICMP ping (otherwise measured= metrics are compatible with ICMP ping)
  • Requires Segme= nt Routing (which means, measurement on forwarding layer, no other interact= ion with passed routers – in opposite to ICMP ping)
    • Active measurement (may be deployed using a single sender&receiver = or separate sender and receiver, Segment Routing allows for both options)

 

I’d be happy to present the draft in Vancouver= .. If there’s community interest. Please read and comment.=

 

You’ll find slides at  

 

https:/= /datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/slides-105-ippm-14-draft-geib-i= ppm-connectivity-monitoring-00

 

Draft url:

 

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-geib-ippm= -connectivity-monitoring/

 

Regards,

 

Ruediger

--_000_BYAPR13MB2485E450C9A230E4A54104769AEB0BYAPR13MB2485namp_-- From nobody Thu Feb 27 11:50:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 129863A0A86 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:50:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sytvH19kYCtx for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:50:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x32f.google.com (mail-ot1-x32f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD4513A0A7F for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:50:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x32f.google.com with SMTP id v19so333569ote.8 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:50:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=LfpNwP4F55hlfRCt0lJ5SZlRKlDlvvvzC2OZ+QRVbOk=; b=JrqFJ+bUHG61OP/MwbVMfHyyeo2OWSvhdT/h+1m7sabzFX8XMMEbEEaHJPm3PpqiDe vqQsM59Z/vxhPGmXwJQ+slwqrukX1Hf/LoHreh/SCWevE8NQN+Y5djpehIDGdczOrMr+ 5iBT1CEV216MY/1UFWgEwMa1MFKm/o53OSFyBjEnO/IneoI7Cv5ZikmKn/JieaArk4IS vPkQrjU2ii78dbINEBrKU3DbiJMs+mFp7cwjn+nqUr9maNYj/Ty32n6h52M0A9st4I2Q Y4e1j8AHR2UQeKeEr824csktlPR8RMOmQUMdypHNUjgIsyBtqcjgDm/C/wp20CoozecO QfNQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=LfpNwP4F55hlfRCt0lJ5SZlRKlDlvvvzC2OZ+QRVbOk=; b=uVVRYxjLbC4Msgrs/CY87I3rnLNZ3oDyhd+2ZeD2qFMFuI5grc7g7MRMNOslAO48aa DZrMq6pWgJpHAp0Y//bKVjAC+iTFtSHfnX7Nkqna090/i0FPQq7BEJzvS3QHb6fyvCEf 7kAYiBM9z2SuXVomjWNwgdu6Oicz36JVd3uQ2d+prSPqUrGsoZRWmmSsYPdqm9zyi6HQ o1WorvUDEYGzd+OA1kNONt1A+7RLaQeoOu26MMUVh5MSErLHarUSQZQh53Ld4XgOOeiR 1ChTaUhODlmnJjKD2dyXOcdtInfQHk6YotDdYQris1NKnsoMS/0CPZWTSpTaNr1G2Mv7 9wcg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXbfxB9DrwxbWQ2tnLq9+zDZjXla+dTZ/0PsrDS6VNcN90bKZm+ i0SwJkrEcWFMzyUASTDjktMmewpNh0DQHcGqUll3kQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxjNx4v2VjeP2cZ0XK1+zzQssEuwIPRKGNFa/R6U3bt6XLHWzi7LNZbEQMsqHGKVYBGBER1gewx6wKKqC/1Wuo= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:7083:: with SMTP id l3mr394105otj.193.1582833012012; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:50:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 20:50:02 +0100 Message-ID: To: Haoyu Song Cc: "Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" , "ippm-chairs@ietf.org" , "spring@ietf.org" , "ippm@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006b887b059f94073e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Monitoring metric to detect and locate congestion X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 19:50:15 -0000 --0000000000006b887b059f94073e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Haoyu, > which applies Eulerian Path algorithm to find the minimum set of paths with network-wide coverage. In practice networks use ECMP. ECMP decision may happen at each hop. Your end to end flows get spread over all ECMP paths. So limiting number of probed paths is inaccurate to the fundamental objective of the exercise. That is infact main challenge with any end to end path probing today ... if you do not cover all possible paths your packets may take between ingress and egress you just do not get full picture of the network. Thx a lot, R. On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 8:44 PM Haoyu Song wrote= : > Hi Ruediger, > > > > I like the general idea that using pre-determined paths in SR to collect > performance metrics. I think this approach provides some unique benefits > compared with the other approaches. It is also coincident with some of > related research work I=E2=80=99m doing. > > Here are some thoughts I have. > > 1. I think IOAM could be used as the standard approach for such > probing packets. It can collect the performance metrics mentioned in t= he > draft and does more. > 2. An interesting problem raised by the draft but not fully addressed > is the method to plan the optimal paths. There is a work called INT-PA= TH ( > https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8737529) which applies Eulerian > Path algorithm to find the minimum set of paths with network-wide cove= rage. > However, the problem here seems different: you need path coverage > redundancy. My question is: do we really need the redundancy to achiev= e the > measurement goal? If so, what=E2=80=99s the best planning algorithm sh= ould be? In a > real and large scale network, we have constraint on where the probing > device(s) can be placed, and we usually want to monitoring the entire > network, so an efficient algorithm is necessary. > > > > Best regards, > > Haoyu > > > > *From:* ippm *On Behalf Of * > Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 25, 2020 11:55 PM > *To:* ippm-chairs@ietf.org > *Cc:* spring@ietf.org; ippm@ietf.org > *Subject:* [ippm] Monitoring metric to detect and locate congestion > > > > Dear IPPM (and SPRING) participants, > > > > I=E2=80=99m solliciting interest in a new network monitoring metric which= allows > to detect and locate congested interfaces. Important properties are > > - Same scalability as ICMP ping in the sense one measurement relation > required per monitored connection > - Adds detection and location of congested interfaces as compared to > ICMP ping (otherwise measured metrics are compatible with ICMP ping) > - Requires Segment Routing (which means, measurement on forwarding > layer, no other interaction with passed routers =E2=80=93 in opposite = to ICMP ping) > - Active measurement (may be deployed using a single sender&receiver > or separate sender and receiver, Segment Routing allows for both optio= ns) > > > > I=E2=80=99d be happy to present the draft in Vancouver... If there=E2=80= =99s community > interest. Please read and comment. > > > > You=E2=80=99ll find slides at > > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/slides-105-ippm-14-dra= ft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-00 > > > > > Draft url: > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring/ > > > > > Regards, > > > > Ruediger > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --0000000000006b887b059f94073e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Haoyu,

> which applies Eulerian P= ath algorithm to find the minimum set of paths with network-wide coverage.= =C2=A0=C2=A0

In practice networks use ECMP. EC= MP decision may happen at each hop. Your end to end flows get spread over a= ll ECMP paths. So limiting number of probed paths is inaccurate to the fund= amental objective of the exercise.=C2=A0

That is i= nfact main challenge=C2=A0with any end to end path probing today ... if you= do not cover all possible paths your packets may take between ingress and= =C2=A0egress you just do not get full picture of the network.=C2=A0

Thx a lot,
R.


On Thu, Feb 2= 7, 2020 at 8:44 PM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com> wrote:

Hi Ruediger,

=C2=A0

I like the general idea that using pre-determined pa= ths in SR to collect performance metrics. I think this approach provides so= me unique benefits compared with the other approaches. It is also coinciden= t with some of related research work I=E2=80=99m doing.

Here are some thoughts I have.

  1. I think IOAM could be used as the standard ap= proach for such probing packets. It can collect the performance metrics men= tioned in the draft and does more.
  2. An interesting problem rai= sed by the draft but not fully addressed is the method to plan the optimal = paths. There is a work called INT-PATH (https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/documen= t/8737529) which applies Eulerian Path algorithm to find the minimum set of paths wit= h network-wide coverage. However, the problem here seems different: you nee= d path coverage redundancy. My question is: do we really need the redundanc= y to achieve the measurement goal? If so, what=E2=80=99s the best planning algorithm should be? In a real and= large scale network, we have constraint on where the probing device(s) can= be placed, and we usually want to monitoring the entire network, so an eff= icient algorithm is necessary.=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0

Best regards,

Haoyu

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Dear IPPM (and SPRING) participant= s,

=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99m solliciting interest in a new network mo= nitoring metric which allows to detect and locate congested interfaces. Imp= ortant properties are

  • Same scalability as ICMP ping in the sense on= e measurement relation required per monitored connection
    • =
  • Adds detection and location of congested inte= rfaces as compared to ICMP ping (otherwise measured metrics are compatible = with ICMP ping)
  • Requires Se= gment Routing (which means, measurement on forwarding layer, no other inter= action with passed routers =E2=80=93 in opposite to ICMP ping)
  • Active measurement (may be deployed usi= ng a single sender&receiver or separate sender and receiver, Segment Ro= uting allows for both options)

=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99d be happy to present the draft in Vancouv= er... If there=E2=80=99s community interest. Please read and comment.

=C2=A0

You=E2=80=99ll find slides at =C2=A0

=C2=A0

https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/slides-105-i= ppm-14-draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-00

=C2=A0

Draft url:

=C2=A0

https://datatracker.ietf.org/d= oc/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring/

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Ruediger

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
--0000000000006b887b059f94073e-- From nobody Thu Feb 27 12:00:04 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 476E83A0AB7; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:59:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hGnkKI3X-1RW; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:59:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 20A153A0AB6; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:59:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48T3Rb5YJfz1nscX; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:59:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1582833595; bh=UXDQNbGPMh3dCvo+Y/gJI8OhtGROA/0nHddUHZyOihg=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=fbYa+IaXHMbEqCND/7xucpNsIwxsNRfLyd4+aN6k3lX2yu+rzynEztgzxiMpSP+4l 7GrfCm/hSSAQf7hvxxDt+2dD3HMaus12Y2NE5gm7p36F6s1HtI8Sj2iBK3CNS/IQaM qvYH1UzTIBdmJE+ojq9XPPdwj2nNE3Hjzv6+U4TU= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [10.47.230.213] (unknown [213.50.241.180]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 48T3RZ055Jz1ns2W; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 11:59:53 -0800 (PST) To: Ted Lemon Cc: SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden , "Zafar Ali (zali)" , Warren Kumari References: <5D218BFB-0D6F-4F7D-858F-B571A67DC47F@leddy.net> <30908949-9150-4784-A0FD-69F92889FB3D@fugue.com> <6EE88981-E5BA-4570-9A19-25C9DA00CCC5@fugue.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <32b744d6-2062-e761-482c-e4dbe1d8cd05@joelhalpern.com> Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:59:51 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6EE88981-E5BA-4570-9A19-25C9DA00CCC5@fugue.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 19:59:58 -0000 Two different disagreements with you. First, I did list adoption as well as last call. In adoption the chairs can't very well look back at the adoption to see if there was really support. Second, it is the WG, not the document authors, that send a document to the AD for IETF approval. if the only people who think the AD and IESG should put in the work are the authors, how can the chairs say to the AD "the WG supports this". At best, you would have to have a very wishy-washy shepherd writeup. Particularly if it has been several years since the adoption. Or worse, several years since the WG even touched the document. I do try to find alternatives before just giving up. Extending adoption or last call windows, with prompting notes about the work (usually) being in charter or even (when appropriate) how important the work is to the overall goal. Yours, Joel On 2/27/2020 2:41 PM, Ted Lemon wrote: > On Feb 27, 2020, at 2:27 PM, Joel M. Halpern > wrote: >> Rather, the case where +1 can be useful is when the question is >> whether the working group even cares about the document.  I have had >> several cases of calls for adoption or WG last call where there was >> almost no response on the mailing list.  In the absence of decent >> indication, I as chair feel compleed to say "no, I do not see enough >> support to adopt / advance / ... this document". >> In that situation, even +1s can help.  (And yes, I do watch for the >> case of all the +1s coming from the same company as the author, and >> then start judging whether they are folks who participate, along the >> lines Warren outlined.) > > In my experience this is actually the wrong thing to do.  If the work > was chartered, and a bunch of people go off and do the work, and then by > the time the work is done the working group has lost momentum other than > those people, saying “Oh, I guess nobody cares, we won’t publish†is the > wrong outcome. > From nobody Thu Feb 27 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; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 12:03:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR04-DB3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-db3eur04lp2052.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.12.52]) (Using TLS) by relay.mimecast.com with ESMTP id uk-mta-60-5S4XSn7mMFylBWG6fn70Cw-1; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 20:02:54 +0000 X-MC-Unique: 5S4XSn7mMFylBWG6fn70Cw-1 Received: from DBBPR03MB5415.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (20.179.47.79) by DBBPR03MB5382.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (20.179.47.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2750.18; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 20:02:52 +0000 Received: from DBBPR03MB5415.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::31cd:8171:1d1f:2fa9]) by DBBPR03MB5415.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::31cd:8171:1d1f:2fa9%5]) with mapi id 15.20.2750.024; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 20:02:52 +0000 From: Andrew Alston To: Robert Raszuk , Ron Bonica CC: SPRING WG , 6man WG , "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" Thread-Topic: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt Thread-Index: AQHV6oS2YbpFEnL0CU61nLyU7gSIdqgpNZwAgAAKGoCAABGFAIAAzcJAgABZoICAAHiegIAAD+IAgAEHAgCAA1zxAIAACTWAgABAw4A= Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 20:02:51 +0000 Message-ID: References: <158248836511.1031.1350509839394231473@ietfa.amsl.com> <7481061F-75A5-4E4D-80AE-40E1F933E94A@cisco.com> <1BB7ED35-98EC-4A73-92A3-AD043D462CF7@steffann.nl> <97141983-EDF7-4C1E-A8F1-4ADCD345BC5A@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.21.0.200113 x-originating-ip: [2c0f:fe40:3:3:242c:1bf5:421d:984d] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 229414db-fae5-4c0e-d47e-08d7bbc00705 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DBBPR03MB5382: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-forefront-prvs: 03264AEA72 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; 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mSTwMnAKNUaysnyFHq9wYjMJ4OsHgIYvdAFFlIDtCxJjUDY7hp0iaDeVydQvhPL5ov7x 8M5Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUyJEPVwbzvLqCDmlzDkoTqiqn2yjPBwC+1xzp+dzKYRFy1ZYOc uqFjlKl/xPcncP/PmQJdU9FUvxj33VMjut2x34pxOA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyAdRtn9H3mvU0aJin0X8zaaZQCT9MFntNMSTseHUWwPNRGapJDdfupfJHLUzKcz9j7XUa8qFjT72xWMZ6rT2g= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:6c26:: with SMTP id k6mr1042573qtu.364.1582833998725; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 12:06:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5D218BFB-0D6F-4F7D-858F-B571A67DC47F@leddy.net> <30908949-9150-4784-A0FD-69F92889FB3D@fugue.com> In-Reply-To: From: Warren Kumari Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 15:06:02 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: Ted Lemon , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden , "Zafar Ali (zali)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 20:06:42 -0000 On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 2:27 PM Joel M. Halpern wrote= : > > THere is one nuance that is worth noting. It is not for the case of a > controversial document. > > Rather, the case where +1 can be useful is when the question is whether > the working group even cares about the document. I have had several > cases of calls for adoption or WG last call where there was almost no > response on the mailing list. In the absence of decent indication, I as > chair feel compleed to say "no, I do not see enough support to adopt / > advance / ... this document". That's a very good point - thank you. > In that situation, even +1s can help. (And yes, I do watch for the case > of all the +1s coming from the same company as the author, and then > start judging whether they are folks who participate, along the lines > Warren outlined.) Yup. Also specific flexibility / human judgement aspect is an important part of the IETF - chairs are expected to have knowledge of their WG, and be able to weight viewpoints, ignore clear company / coalition bias, etc. If they abuse this, there is the appeal process. ADs are equally make judgement calls -- and again, there is an appeal / recall procedure. Appeals are a critical part of our process, and should be used when appropriate (the very fact that they exist and can be invoked is also a useful mechanism for mitigating abuse). W > > Yours, > Joel > > On 2/27/2020 2:07 PM, Ted Lemon wrote: > > On Feb 27, 2020, at 1:59 PM, Robert Raszuk > > wrote: > >> It is very unfortunate that IETF does not have a good way of > >> retrieving judgement from real group of folks who understand given > >> proposal. > > > > We do. It=E2=80=99s called =E2=80=9Csubstantive comments.=E2=80=9D > > > >> "+1" is just only one demonstration of it. Humming is another. Raising > >> hands one more. We say there is no voting but while there is no formal > >> ballot box nor even e-ballot version of it all of the above ways to > >> gather "consensus" are examples of voting. > > > > Actually, the purpose of humming is not to make a decision, but to > > figure out whether there is general consensus. If you ask for a hum > > and you get a 50-50 response, there probably isn=E2=80=99t consensus, a= nd you > > might just say =E2=80=9Cwe don=E2=80=99t have consensus=E2=80=9D and go= on to figuring out how. > > If the =E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D hum has no loud participants, you might = say =E2=80=9Clooks like > > we=E2=80=99re good to go, we=E2=80=99ll confirm on the list.=E2=80=9D = If there=E2=80=99s someone > > humming loudly no when everybody else is in favor, and you don=E2=80=99= t know > > why they=E2=80=99re humming that way, that=E2=80=99s a good time to ask= them if they are > > willing to explain. > > > > But bear in mind that humming does not take place on the mailing list, > > and that consensus is called on the mailing list, not in the room. > > > > On the mailing list, people pretty much have to raise objections > > verbally. No amount of +1s should be considered meaningful at all. > > The work is chartered; the wg is supposed to do it. If there are no > > objections, and people feel the document is ready, then it should move > > forward, whether there are +1s or not. If objections are raised, and > > they are substantive (that is, not opinion or conjecture), then they > > have to be addressed. They can be addressed by saying =E2=80=9Cwe con= sidered > > that, and the working group as a whole agrees that the problem exists, > > but it doesn=E2=80=99t need to be addressed because this document is on= ly > > applicable in a situation where the objection raised doesn=E2=80=99t ma= tter.=E2=80=9D > > Or it can add text to address the objection, as Brian I think has > > suggested. Or it can do additional work to address the problem, as > > Brian has also suggested. > > > > But the WG can=E2=80=99t simply ignore the objection. That is not what= =E2=80=9Crough > > consensus=E2=80=9D means. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > spring mailing list > > spring@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > --=20 I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf From nobody Thu Feb 27 12:12:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E99C13A0AE3; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 12:12:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uAgN7jMxxHhY; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 12:12:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-f46.google.com (mail-wm1-f46.google.com [209.85.128.46]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 08A723A0ADE; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 12:12:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-f46.google.com with SMTP id t23so839700wmi.1; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 12:12:05 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=PlYeAS2w89VujY1QpsqdVRDcvNiFHNniN85EeSK1qmw=; b=otV1IWME3MNo6tn22hO2mUR7H0Q3DmRrACCLONcNXid+OeV2mGuSpUGxVuldiU3M/1 8kjmreB67eZ/DwjIpL71veAej5fblqTWSPFxQl4vlOqXseQ/OhesjUqCcayoPi8zuKOD dAqrbvnOPmIC3BcD7Cq9cTiylCp6cNO5gj8Vn9Y53NWigusRhTAfkk38Se9CMGglLSUK xq2eHUeZVPWDYTzeUR4aKcF1RGbV62qASTj1J5x6O9+qoe+KYtN57mK7O3Tm1U6ivDle iT3wFEryyu164BmhVMX8BNREx9zqhRtK5FO6mqNWltIOJFqNHn718gnX3HTwC8bpOtHm RQCg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXCUWETjFg8PGw7+zGvi3tIFMsu6gHbbTS3dKNOkMuNxPAP32Vm uUliewWDTOXBqjP5ePzwkwV2w/1r1WgAeJkcP9c= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx3Q3HIoYwYIWWGe+DllcTTDS5lZSXoBmb2unlnzI2I0sPkot+wJVscyROcpYoZWFzZ1SuVnh4ujp2qDZLqMIE= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:2b44:: with SMTP id r65mr471320wmr.72.1582834324270; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 12:12:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D9364A1C2@DGGEMM532-MBX.china.huawei.com> <4038_1582727829_5E568295_4038_168_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DB381A@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <8ca30058-b8cf-cba4-524d-99b34e2b01d6@gont.com.ar> In-Reply-To: From: =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 12:11:52 -0800 Message-ID: To: Fernando Gont Cc: bruno.decraene@orange.com, Lizhenbin , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 20:12:08 -0000 On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 11:39 AM wrote: > > So... is the plan to ship a document that violates RFC8200? > > Please forgive me asking some clarification question that seems to be > obvious for others: which part of > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10 violates RFC8200? From > a quick read of it, Section 4.16 seems to describe the removal of an > extension header from an IPv6 packet at a forwarding node. Is that > the one referenced as a violation? Or is it something else, or are > there others in addition to 4.16? I've not seen any feedback, but according to the thread messages since then, it's now pretty clear to me that it's at least about Section 4.16 (or more specifically, 4.16.1, which describes "PSP"). In that case, I have to oppose moving this doc forward in its current form. First, as (I believe) Brian also pointed out, the description of this section is obscure. And, in fact, it wasn't immediately clear to me whether it's a violation of RFC8200 (hence the question). Secondly, with more accurate understanding of the intent of this section through the discussion of this thread, it's now clearer to me that it's a violation of the following part of RFC8200: Extension headers (except for the Hop-by-Hop Options header) are not processed, inserted, or deleted by any node along a packet's delivery path, until the packet reaches the node (or each of the set of nodes, in the case of multicast) identified in the Destination Address field of the IPv6 header. in that an intermediate node specified in a routing header with segment left > 0 deletes an extension header. So at least this document has to clearly declare updating RFC8200 and get consensus about it before moving on. It's not done yet. Hence my objection. It's surprising to me that some people seem to (still) argue it's not a violation because this node "is identified in the Destination Address field of the IPv6 header" (before swapping it with the next hop specified in the routing header). Aside from that this interpretation logically doesn't make sense as it's not compatible with AH or PMTUD, if it could be justified with that logic, we wouldn't have had to go through the long debate in promoting RFC2460 to RFC8200 in the first place. The conclusion at that time (I wouldn't call it a "consensus" as I know not everyone was happy about it) was that - Such kind of insertion and deletion is indeed a violation of RFC2460; that's why RFC8200 now clearly says "inserted, or deleted" while RFC2460 only states "examined or processed". - 6man and SPRING WGs will work together to see if we can define an exception to loosen the limitation so that a future version of SRv6 can validly coexist the base IPv6 standard. Until then, encapsulation/decapsulation is the only standard-compliant behavior. Now, beyond these technical points, I also have meta-level concerns. Here I share the frustration of Fernando, even if his word may be too blunt. After the hot debate on revising RFC2460, I expected us to "work together" towards the goal of seeking some middleground. Admittedly, this process wouldn't be easy - some people who opposed to the insertion/deletion at that time seem to believe there's no such middleground anyway. But some others seem more flexible, and, as far as I can see, at least everyone is open to have discussions. But, after nearly 3 years since the publication of RFC8200, we still seem to have the same easy circumvention: - Simply dismissing the concern by arguing this is not a violation - Labeling those who raise concerns as innovation blockers - Just blaming the IPv6 base protocol as being broken (because it doesn't accommodate a feature they want) - Insisting SRv6 just happens to use IPv6 packet format and some part of spec but is not IPv6, indicating it doesn't matter whether it violates the IPv6 standard - Pushing industry agenda instead of working together to reach consensus I'm sad, but if this doesn't change, the only thing I, as a poor individual, can make objections to last calls. At least in the purely technical sense, I've not seen any difference now and then. So, the history would suggest even if we blindly pass this WGLC we'll have a very long debate at the IETF last call and just reach the same conclusion. That would be a waste of time for everyone. I hope we can be more cooperative instead of that. -- JINMEI, Tatuya From nobody Thu Feb 27 12:14:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D77C83A0AEC; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 12:14:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=futurewei.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3F_oZZ4aqc3C; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 12:14:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from 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(2603:10b6:a02:c8::19) by BYAPR13MB2774.namprd13.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:fb::23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2772.5; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 20:14:27 +0000 Received: from BYAPR13MB2485.namprd13.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::f8cf:3559:b171:9f59]) by BYAPR13MB2485.namprd13.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::f8cf:3559:b171:9f59%6]) with mapi id 15.20.2772.012; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 20:14:27 +0000 From: Haoyu Song To: Robert Raszuk CC: "Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de" , "ippm-chairs@ietf.org" , "spring@ietf.org" , "ippm@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [spring] Monitoring metric to detect and locate congestion Thread-Index: AdXsd9MS3uEh95p5QyK2WBDxA74xnQBK4HLQAADxJwAAABLocA== Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 20:14:26 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=haoyu.song@futurewei.com; x-originating-ip: [12.111.81.95] 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tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PHQQ8aQqZ5yD for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 12:18:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x334.google.com (mail-ot1-x334.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::334]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 54CF03A0B2C for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 12:18:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x334.google.com with SMTP id j20so446499otq.3 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 12:18:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=gnxAOG4rNHO8Ux+gkM4BnRouoVv9UTWSx1mI83AvisY=; b=OMhEkGPLw8jjB3501ztGNDS2fqeDkhBp8ocFOD+H96f4sAQO5YKHCyqx1o0vjfZ589 Q3pvgILrHD5ZXyBOJ8vBzdUT8kpnwcZCsz8avO1OFPZMCpHU1oTJMP1s2cs2V9Np8im9 nsOpxbTylls+xyEg4jepih/BPSfaMdgbFJnic9Urc4rWVsXeYam+lVwuOav7O1r8zkny /0v4VlsBfKYENi+weluXboCAbcbkuZOJcYCclCq6x5krMwC3NrjVjdgy5Qy26o8PWlRr 0Wr22r5wH3ayIAbK+b1QeGH4vD3zfwXMYCUChwN9OB+QPGasuIc369/uJbjrJmKhttGs QQHQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=gnxAOG4rNHO8Ux+gkM4BnRouoVv9UTWSx1mI83AvisY=; b=V18/GIA0cUVpW6i/DsF5KDB4munUqedYHbrEKDGqCwpq7kJ1qFAE6CdnNLs1PHv246 X0E6boRC5GvrSRRFyH2xsg5skdYEIdxqcC2iRUBCDm1zjTk95r5Q9ZM4Npa9oxP4aPKw SNtpgwnUpVcinWVHH0gTwNXcqa809IOXuPnEvX7d2D0HkZrLuR3Vk6c+yuMpU81+/Tw7 TIcRt1Q57VqU4MJgscu2mYgDd7oP2ULeVuCu6rH50AJUsC22mJ4h/immKvcG/efhAxjG 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List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 20:18:32 -0000 --000000000000998cca059f946c57 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The point is not to assure all egress ports are inspected. The point of any really useful end to end path probing is to find out if combination of ingress+egress queuing on each transit node my packet may traverse are not congested. Looking at Eulerian path algorithm I do not see such guarantees. Best, R. PS. Path probing is A1 to B1. It is not A1 to B1, B2 .. Bn. where An are the ingress ports to the network and Bn are the egress ports. On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 9:14 PM Haoyu Song wrote= : > Hi Robert, > > > > The Eulerian path algorithm guarantees to visit all the edges of a graph. > In the SR context, we can consider the sub-path between two segments an > edge. > > > > Haoyu > > > > *From:* Robert Raszuk > *Sent:* Thursday, February 27, 2020 11:50 AM > *To:* Haoyu Song > *Cc:* Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de; ippm-chairs@ietf.org; spring@ietf.org; > ippm@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [spring] Monitoring metric to detect and locate congestion > > > > Hi Haoyu, > > > > > which applies Eulerian Path algorithm to find the minimum set of paths > with network-wide coverage. > > > > In practice networks use ECMP. ECMP decision may happen at each hop. Your > end to end flows get spread over all ECMP paths. So limiting number of > probed paths is inaccurate to the fundamental objective of the exercise. > > > > That is infact main challenge with any end to end path probing today ... > if you do not cover all possible paths your packets may take between > ingress and egress you just do not get full picture of the network. > > > > Thx a lot, > > R. > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 8:44 PM Haoyu Song > wrote: > > Hi Ruediger, > > > > I like the general idea that using pre-determined paths in SR to collect > performance metrics. I think this approach provides some unique benefits > compared with the other approaches. It is also coincident with some of > related research work I=E2=80=99m doing. > > Here are some thoughts I have. > > 1. I think IOAM could be used as the standard approach for such > probing packets. It can collect the performance metrics mentioned in t= he > draft and does more. > 2. An interesting problem raised by the draft but not fully addressed > is the method to plan the optimal paths. There is a work called INT-PA= TH ( > https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8737529 > ) > which applies Eulerian Path algorithm to find the minimum set of paths= with > network-wide coverage. However, the problem here seems different: you = need > path coverage redundancy. My question is: do we really need the redund= ancy > to achieve the measurement goal? If so, what=E2=80=99s the best planni= ng algorithm > should be? In a real and large scale network, we have constraint on wh= ere > the probing device(s) can be placed, and we usually want to monitoring= the > entire network, so an efficient algorithm is necessary. > > > > Best regards, > > Haoyu > > > > *From:* ippm *On Behalf Of * > Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 25, 2020 11:55 PM > *To:* ippm-chairs@ietf.org > *Cc:* spring@ietf.org; ippm@ietf.org > *Subject:* [ippm] Monitoring metric to detect and locate congestion > > > > Dear IPPM (and SPRING) participants, > > > > I=E2=80=99m solliciting interest in a new network monitoring metric which= allows > to detect and locate congested interfaces. Important properties are > > - Same scalability as ICMP ping in the sense one measurement relation > required per monitored connection > - Adds detection and location of congested interfaces as compared to > ICMP ping (otherwise measured metrics are compatible with ICMP ping) > - Requires Segment Routing (which means, measurement on forwarding > layer, no other interaction with passed routers =E2=80=93 in opposite = to ICMP ping) > - Active measurement (may be deployed using a single sender&receiver > or separate sender and receiver, Segment Routing allows for both optio= ns) > > > > I=E2=80=99d be happy to present the draft in Vancouver... If there=E2=80= =99s community > interest. Please read and comment. > > > > You=E2=80=99ll find slides at > > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/slides-105-ippm-14-dra= ft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-00 > > > > > Draft url: > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring/ > > > > > Regards, > > > > Ruediger > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > > --000000000000998cca059f946c57 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The point is not to assure all egress ports are inspected.=

The point of any really useful end to end path probing = is to find out if combination of ingress+egress queuing on each transit nod= e my packet may traverse are not congested.=C2=A0

= Looking at=C2=A0Eulerian path algorithm I do not see such guarantees.=C2=A0=

Best,
R.

PS. P= ath probing is A1 to B1. It is not A1 to B1, B2 .. Bn. where An are the ing= ress ports to the network and Bn are the egress ports.=C2=A0
On Thu, F= eb 27, 2020 at 9:14 PM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com> wrote:

Hi Robert,

=C2=A0

The Eulerian path algorithm guarantees to visit all = the edges of a graph. In the SR context, we can consider the sub-path betwe= en two segments an edge.

=C2=A0

Haoyu

=C2=A0

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2020 11:50 AM
To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>
Cc: Ru= ediger.Geib@telekom.de; ippm-chairs@ietf.org; spring@ietf.org; ippm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [spring] Monitoring metric to detect and locate congest= ion

=C2=A0

Hi Haoyu,

=C2=A0

> which applies Eulerian Path algorithm to find t= he minimum set of paths with network-wide coverage.=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

In practice networks use ECMP. ECMP decision may hap= pen at each hop. Your end to end flows get spread over all ECMP paths. So l= imiting number of probed paths is inaccurate to the fundamental objective o= f the exercise.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

That is infact main challenge=C2=A0with any end to e= nd path probing today ... if you do not cover all possible paths your packe= ts may take between ingress and=C2=A0egress you just do not get full pictur= e of the network.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Thx a lot,

R.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 8:44 PM Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurew= ei.com> wrote:

Hi Ruediger,

=C2=A0

I like the general idea that using pre-determined pa= ths in SR to collect performance metrics. I think this approach provides so= me unique benefits compared with the other approaches. It is also coincident with some of related research work I=E2=80=99m doing= .

Here are some thoughts I have.

  1. I think IOAM could be used as the standard approach for such probing packet= s. It can collect the performance metrics mentioned in the draft and does m= ore.
  2. An interesting problem raised by the draft but not fully addressed is the m= ethod to plan the optimal paths. There is a work called INT-PATH (https://ieeexplore.i= eee.org/document/8737529) which applies Eulerian Path algorithm to find the minimum set of paths wit= h network-wide coverage. However, the problem here seems different: you nee= d path coverage redundancy. My question is: do we really need the redundanc= y to achieve the measurement goal? If so, what=E2=80=99s the best planning algorithm should be? In a real and= large scale network, we have constraint on where the probing device(s) can= be placed, and we usually want to monitoring the entire network, so an eff= icient algorithm is necessary.=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0

Best regards,

Haoyu

=C2=A0

From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Ruediger.Geib@telekom.de
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 11:55 PM
To: ippm-c= hairs@ietf.org
Cc: spring@ietf= .org; ippm@ietf.org
Subject: [ippm] Monitoring metric to detect and locate congestion=

=C2=A0

Dear IPPM (and SPRING) participant= s,

=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99m solliciting interest in a new network mo= nitoring metric which allows to detect and locate congested interfaces. Imp= ortant properties are

  • Same scalability as ICMP ping in the sense one measurement relation require= d per monitored connection
  • Adds detection and location of congested interfaces as compared to ICMP pin= g (otherwise measured metrics are compatible with ICMP ping)<= /li>
  • Requires Segment Routing (which means, measurement on forwarding layer, no = other interaction with passed routers =E2=80=93 in opposite to ICMP ping)
  • Active measurement (may be deployed using a single sender&receiver or s= eparate sender and receiver, Segment Routing allows for both options)

=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99d be happy to present the draft in Vancouv= er... If there=E2=80=99s community interest. Please read and comment.

=C2=A0

You=E2=80=99ll find slides at =C2=A0

=C2=A0

https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/slides-10= 5-ippm-14-draft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring-00

=C2=A0

Draft url:

=C2=A0

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/d= raft-geib-ippm-connectivity-monitoring/

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Ruediger

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

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([2601:18b:300:36ee:50ee:a3fe:ec9d:4bdb]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a141sm3922082qkb.50.2020.02.27.12.54.49 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 27 Feb 2020 12:54:49 -0800 (PST) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: <0F801544-16E6-4AF5-99F9-264B54E1DB71@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_539C787D-8952-47BC-92F4-6228EF2CE481" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3622.0.6\)) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 15:54:49 -0500 In-Reply-To: <1B8870B5-D09C-4946-A752-1B7E0145F9B6@cisco.com> Cc: "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" References: <6B803B308679F94FBD953ABEA5CCCCD701089509@dggema524-mbx.china.huawei.com> <6E7A3022-DEC7-4E35-9A56-0F708CD41180@fugue.com> <66327512-43CE-47CB-A5BD-10E5D8F71FD8@fugue.com> <1B8870B5-D09C-4946-A752-1B7E0145F9B6@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3622.0.6) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 20:54:53 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_539C787D-8952-47BC-92F4-6228EF2CE481 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Feb 27, 2020, at 3:38 PM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) = wrote: > The discussion that we are having is about PSP which has nothing to do = with that. So, there is text in the document that addresses Brian=E2=80=99s = question? --Apple-Mail=_539C787D-8952-47BC-92F4-6228EF2CE481 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On = Feb 27, 2020, at 3:38 PM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril@cisco.com> = wrote:
The = discussion that we are having is about PSP which has nothing to do with = that.

So, = there is text in the document that addresses Brian=E2=80=99s = question?

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Halpern" , "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" Thread-Topic: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea Thread-Index: AQHVr85jkDTrl3F9Ek+u2IYEeAPr26e1XsCAgAGdL4CAAmwmgIAFDvgAgAThOoCAacAMgIAAnH0AgAAjW4CAAi0JgA== Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 21:11:00 +0000 Message-ID: References: <5c2a4b36-0c59-709e-23eb-00f4aa1ce52f@joelhalpern.com> <9B89F4C2-5594-4D31-8893-21F3F4A0DF6C@cisco.com> <58ED78D3-9E0C-4556-8853-8754B361DF6D@cisco.com> <81A30B25-9857-467E-85AE-1FE84B6F3197@cisco.com> <05981e2ea71c4b3083ed6e15c7e20641@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=ddukes@cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [198.84.207.201] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: a016f19a-5b52-4015-13ac-08d7bbc98bea x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DM5PR11MB1691: x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-forefront-prvs: 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engine=8.12.0-2001150001 definitions=main-2002270142 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 21:29:37 -0000 Jinmei, The current discussion is about Penultimate Segment Popping (PSP) (Section = 4.16). Normally, when an IPv6 node processes a packet that includes a Routi= ng header with Segment Left equal to 1, the node decrements Segments Left a= nd forwards the packet, with the Routing header intact. In PSP, when an IPv= 6 node processes a packet that includes a Routing header with Segment Left = equal to 1, the node removes the Routing header and forwards the packet, wi= thout the Routing header. The question is whether PSP violates the following clause from Section 4 of= RFC 8200: "Extension headers (except for the Hop-by-Hop Options header) are not processed, inserted, or deleted by any node along a packet's delivery path, until the packet reaches the node (or each of the set of nodes, in the case of multicast) identified in the Destination Address field of the IPv6 header." A literal reading of this text suggest that any segment endpoint (i.e., any= node referenced in the Routing Header) can process, insert, or delete any = extension header. This is because when a packet arrives at a segment endpoi= nt, one of its addresses appears in the IPv6 Destination Address field. At least one RFC contradicts this literal reading. Section 3.3.3.1.1.2 of R= FC 4302 says that the payload length and next header fields of the IPv6 hea= der are immutable. PSP would change both of these and break AH processing. When RFC 4302 was published, nobody questioned the assumption that the payl= oad length and next header fields of the IPv6 header are immutable. Therefo= re, we can assume that it was a commonly held belief. Some argue that none of this is a problem because the SRH is incompatible w= ith the IPv6 Authentication header (see Section 7.5 of draft-ietf-6man-sege= mnt-routing-header-26).=20 Others argue that PSP may break more than IPv6 AH. Other applications may, = may concur with the RFC 4302 reading of RFC 8200. If they rely on payload l= ength and next header fields of the IPv6 header being immutable, they will = also break. Ron Juniper Business Use Only -----Original Message----- From: spring On Behalf Of ???? Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 2:40 PM To: Fernando Gont Cc: bruno.decraene@orange.com; SPRING WG List ; 6man@ietf.= org; Lizhenbin ; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-progr= amming Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - = draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming At Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:45:14 -0300, Fernando Gont wrote: > So... is the plan to ship a document that violates RFC8200? Please forgive me asking some clarification question that seems to be obvio= us for others: which part of draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10 violates RFC8200? From a qui= ck read of it, Section 4.16 seems to describe the removal of an extension h= eader from an IPv6 packet at a forwarding node. Is that the one referenced= as a violation? Or is it something else, or are there others in addition = to 4.16? -- JINMEI, Tatuya _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring__;= !!NEt6yMaO-gk!X7yacQY8b6Y0TpWJZiqa09s9YN5jOWOtfAZJteY4jOHczN4U3b7fl6FDtYPDL= knI$=20 From nobody Thu Feb 27 13:53:18 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48A413A0CCB; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 13:53:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=steffann.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jG5rkr2uCZBe; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 13:52:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sintact.nl (mail.sintact.nl [83.247.10.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E072F3A0CCA; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 13:52:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C2F049; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 22:52:52 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=steffann.nl; h= x-mailer:message-id:subject:subject:date:date:mime-version:from :from:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type :received:received; s=mail; t=1582840370; bh=O5c9AxzuTnDGN3rOl9A hak5/+haI9T3iy9RR4EJPCUA=; b=rjkMsydOVIZvtlkTaUeBvEoUQE0KeR0i97t yzV3hpnCDkaXgh35QNDmoajgfap/jH98KDuztvLnBZvHvcyAaCUhKW09jE2nsnQR sfUEANfwyvPVbA4wjVFBGWgwy0YbQp2NNoPepX7ymZnUbxRzGLJ8bme7w9/EP0Wg W5WLjYYY= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.sintact.nl Received: from mail.sintact.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.sintact.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id XMWlL6M856fW; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 22:52:50 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:64bc:fe8e:114b:faf0] (unknown [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:64bc:fe8e:114b:faf0]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A87183C; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 22:52:49 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 22:52:48 +0100 Message-Id: Cc: Fernando Gont , bruno.decraene@orange.com, SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Lizhenbin , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming To: =?utf-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17D50) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 21:53:02 -0000 Thank you for writing this down so well. This is exactly how I feel about th= is issue too, but you are much better at staying polite :) Cheers! Sander From nobody Thu Feb 27 14:01:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E2313A0CFB; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:01:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w9ghCdHtKvKb; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:01:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DCAA83A0D01; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:01:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (unknown [181.45.84.85]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8B17680CD2; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 23:01:09 +0100 (CET) To: Ron Bonica , =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= , Fernando Gont Cc: SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming References: <5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D9364A1C2@DGGEMM532-MBX.china.huawei.com> <4038_1582727829_5E568295_4038_168_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DB381A@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <8ca30058-b8cf-cba4-524d-99b34e2b01d6@gont.com.ar> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 18:57:29 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 22:01:15 -0000 On 27/2/20 18:29, Ron Bonica wrote: > Jinmei, > > The current discussion is about Penultimate Segment Popping (PSP) (Section 4.16). Normally, when an IPv6 node processes a packet that includes a Routing header with Segment Left equal to 1, the node decrements Segments Left and forwards the packet, with the Routing header intact. In PSP, when an IPv6 node processes a packet that includes a Routing header with Segment Left equal to 1, the node removes the Routing header and forwards the packet, without the Routing header. > > The question is whether PSP violates the following clause from Section 4 of RFC 8200: > > "Extension headers (except for the Hop-by-Hop Options header) are not > processed, inserted, or deleted by any node along a packet's delivery > path, until the packet reaches the node (or each of the set of nodes, > in the case of multicast) identified in the Destination Address field > of the IPv6 header." > > A literal reading of this text suggest that any segment endpoint (i.e., any node referenced in the Routing Header) can process, insert, or delete any extension header. This is because when a packet arrives at a segment endpoint, one of its addresses appears in the IPv6 Destination Address field. > > At least one RFC contradicts this literal reading. Section 3.3.3.1.1.2 of RFC 4302 says that the payload length and next header fields of the IPv6 header are immutable. PSP would change both of these and break AH processing. The intent is grasped in Appendix B of RFC8200: o Clarified that extension headers (except for the Hop-by-Hop Options header) are not processed, inserted, or deleted by any node along a packet's delivery path. We might have done a poor job polishing the text. That doesn't change anything. And that's what Errata's are for. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Thu Feb 27 14:11:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00EB13A0793 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:11:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QSmmTkrqw3bu for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:11:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 323803A0D61 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:11:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (unknown [181.45.84.85]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D472A82D4D; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 23:11:08 +0100 (CET) To: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" , Mark Smith Cc: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" , Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "Joel M. Halpern" , "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" References: <5c2a4b36-0c59-709e-23eb-00f4aa1ce52f@joelhalpern.com> <9B89F4C2-5594-4D31-8893-21F3F4A0DF6C@cisco.com> <58ED78D3-9E0C-4556-8853-8754B361DF6D@cisco.com> <81A30B25-9857-467E-85AE-1FE84B6F3197@cisco.com> <05981e2ea71c4b3083ed6e15c7e20641@huawei.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 19:11:01 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 22:11:15 -0000 On 27/2/20 18:11, Darren Dukes (ddukes) wrote: > Mark AH is not defined for SRH.  There is no specification to ignore. Do you realize that you are using IPv6, and that AH is specified for IPv6? Is the AD watching? -- Seriously, this is going through a very curious and dangerous path. For the interested reader, a longer explanation of the issue: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/sbb95BqdPifuRb_NPc3aeiqBbfM/ Thanks, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From nobody Thu Feb 27 14:18:47 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD0DD3A0D89; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:18:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id odRxsX7MaMFU; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:18:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-f51.google.com (mail-wr1-f51.google.com [209.85.221.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3BE253A0D82; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:18:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-f51.google.com with SMTP id p18so696247wre.9; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:18:38 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/5DyfIE1rOyb1l1ieS/2QB3djZLYLuDNAisZzdilByU=; b=InVoOvNe6kqqsvhT0zM68uPKy6eWvww1sbiPRRQ5p928A1JkFRyRE8YD6sxYhWkLlC 8gG6o6gxY6Y4W/NLAMwr3nLhUNrx45rNZEhYEKiggSrMn2dpDAacXKj8Xva+l50bM/vm E1+Dy2SJ2DXog9FPLKIaEqtlQvw7+cDjFk9x2lha+3r4Q+vrSnB8HNcMrYIPxm3PX6nX oYecVlqskrOdrFaGcuMtkMlsAXjp3ehQ4buaruNh0PWsVn7b3MyO/+6B0UilRmHIG+aY B+T6QD6m9xZNWx18GEIoj8WoBPF4aZ2vK4n2+qDCVuCY14LFF/jKsXVotiXzjTqyzOoL CVqA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVPU1ajtJCm6zQ8F6eCgIcILe+Yqi0Zw4C1LcFtVF9d1+peg/xu vsZC/5S8/MW5T4ZiGUaclzm/cMEnNU09BfHev5Y9/ML4 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyNjmMMjacRvQr6RUXCaOFoaDzu4yIclpprOeV9sU/WAyhIf2jX9skm8Y4OjZFscNKx72GdWiW2IWo0QVvEHBk= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:6a04:: with SMTP id m4mr968616wru.127.1582841916463; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:18:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D9364A1C2@DGGEMM532-MBX.china.huawei.com> <4038_1582727829_5E568295_4038_168_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DB381A@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <8ca30058-b8cf-cba4-524d-99b34e2b01d6@gont.com.ar> In-Reply-To: From: =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:18:25 -0800 Message-ID: To: Ron Bonica Cc: Fernando Gont , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 22:18:40 -0000 At Thu, 27 Feb 2020 21:29:24 +0000, Ron Bonica wrote: > The question is whether PSP violates the following clause from Section 4 = of RFC 8200: > > "Extension headers (except for the Hop-by-Hop Options header) are not > processed, inserted, or deleted by any node along a packet's delivery > path, until the packet reaches the node (or each of the set of nodes, > in the case of multicast) identified in the Destination Address field > of the IPv6 header." > > A literal reading of this text suggest that any segment endpoint (i.e., a= ny node referenced in the Routing Header) can process, insert, or delete an= y extension header. This is because when a packet arrives at a segment endp= oint, one of its addresses appears in the IPv6 Destination Address field. Please see my response to my own message. Yes, purely "literally", it could read that way (it's amazing human-written text can be always ambiguous to some extent, no matter how hard we try to clarify it), but that doesn't make sense if we recall a larger context. If the phrase "Destination Address field of the IPv6 header" could justify the deletion (or even insertion, for that matter) of an EH at a node like that, then changing this text in RFC2460 With one exception, extension headers are not examined or processed by any node along a packet's delivery path, until the packet reaches the node (or each of the set of nodes, in the case of multicast) identified in the Destination Address field of the IPv6 header. to the above one in RFC8200 shouldn't have caused the painful debate regarding the implication of SRv6. We should have known this change would make the SRv6-style insertion/deletion a violation of the RFC even more clearly than RFC2460 at that time, and that's why we needed that discussion. And that's why I'm surprised at seeing this argument now. Perhaps those making this just because they forgot the previous discussion or simply weren't involved in it. But combining this point and other signals that indicate the reluctance to take on the tedious reconciliation between RFC8200 and this spec (which would be most likely to require an update to the RFC), it wouldn't be unreasonable if one suspects it may be an attempt of easily circumventing the process rather than a genuine misunderstanding of the text. I guess this suspicion is somewhat commonly shared by those raising concerns (including myself). -- JINMEI, Tatuya From nobody Thu Feb 27 14:34:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2FC33A0DE5; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:34:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kwsJQsWpjP9N; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:34:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw1-xc35.google.com (mail-yw1-xc35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B812C3A0DE0; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:34:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yw1-xc35.google.com with SMTP id i190so1345598ywc.2; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:34:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=oNdxJzJGhhYbatidg3laNTEn3j4/6GV3YovFHhfjF6M=; b=NQumqDEkNIK85dqzIoPbkKveggaOYi1CK24qnTPaZje2bQiXdIcD4xexdNH1I+tvRa W7ov2+8FvMGx1BGnHLmWR1DbBkmcwJ6w57703lFxR7IW235OnmwE1SVh5QieU8wyOoRr 7VuxAllz3JR4da5Xn4+snxg5UVhUO746AnVHdVTO2MuDWdQckpgDgXc+5dFAId/bZ1wF aGrUBb1vO8tGDXDdnrfSCJ5SSlBYQB4DJoAjUT8iJa1xODFTXHOFb755xw9IVxqLlyG7 MuuLyhRhmTfqSv625und+YAaTJP2RvsGBxpqwb20+Xf5lJvEvnXTXDYtXumvWysXeUn8 +QBQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=oNdxJzJGhhYbatidg3laNTEn3j4/6GV3YovFHhfjF6M=; b=Dfc3+2EqsoQ0LvOaVRHRdf/BcicAV9v/X7ZVq8O4eWU+8Ste/RvnSMNRr5EY/GgzUZ ZSo02Merc4x9RSrAdO5EO78YceB7Hrb1lMCdZKQZJctSlTlpPqf+wIucikRyNGqZMSsW sJI87wbeaFHmuV+c9lYIkpC+VVUE3Aj9XSKb0jwdMh54mPEEtqhEe08Zlj+OgPKEYR1V 5eM0rbufNZhVBubPgwj5ly/czL3Zbuj+KJA0zvw+BAs+MmWsIUeDxKoH0tFSIBrYq3lW gejV+9B5NI1wHEEWYbZXrIjgFJPmT6YSb+XRuMrAyPlpY8cEvdRcGW+t+oF0QpHvvhnL rF0w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV7Lbn7vvgLph4q3DDC6LHULlBncsBy1vwLf4GgUcLiwIzOWZx1 ekOcGNyGB5K5uB9mRp8zwQc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy3gGD3f6qCryTFzmupAhAkxHHO3j50X3t+00sLpbRXU3Ois4rnupZDJ+ouToNvu6KQha9C5Q== X-Received: by 2002:a0d:fb82:: with SMTP id l124mr1795453ywf.507.1582842857851; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:34:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.20] (45-19-110-76.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net. [45.19.110.76]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d9sm3098622ywh.55.2020.02.27.14.34.17 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:34:17 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.40.2.2.4\)) From: Suresh Krishnan In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 17:34:16 -0500 Cc: Ron Bonica , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Fernando Gont , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D9364A1C2@DGGEMM532-MBX.china.huawei.com> <4038_1582727829_5E568295_4038_168_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DB381A@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <8ca30058-b8cf-cba4-524d-99b34e2b01d6@gont.com.ar> To: =?utf-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.40.2.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 22:34:21 -0000 Hi Jinmei, > On Feb 27, 2020, at 5:18 PM, =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 = wrote: >=20 > At Thu, 27 Feb 2020 21:29:24 +0000, > Ron Bonica wrote: >=20 >> The question is whether PSP violates the following clause from = Section 4 of RFC 8200: >>=20 >> "Extension headers (except for the Hop-by-Hop Options header) are not >> processed, inserted, or deleted by any node along a packet's = delivery >> path, until the packet reaches the node (or each of the set of = nodes, >> in the case of multicast) identified in the Destination Address = field >> of the IPv6 header." >>=20 >> A literal reading of this text suggest that any segment endpoint = (i.e., any node referenced in the Routing Header) can process, insert, = or delete any extension header. This is because when a packet arrives at = a segment endpoint, one of its addresses appears in the IPv6 Destination = Address field. >=20 > Please see my response to my own message. Yes, purely "literally", it > could read that way (it's amazing human-written text can be always > ambiguous to some extent, no matter how hard we try to clarify it), Yes, this is unfortunate. We ended up strengthening some constraints = while leaving some others open. While I would (and do) interpret things = exactly as you did, it is impossible to determine after the fact if a = different text formulation would have gotten consensus. What we have is = the text of RFC8200. > but > that doesn't make sense if we recall a larger context. If the phrase > "Destination Address field of the IPv6 header" could justify the > deletion (or even insertion, for that matter) of an EH at a node like > that, then changing this text in RFC2460 >=20 > With one exception, extension headers are not examined or processed > by any node along a packet's delivery path, until the packet reaches > the node (or each of the set of nodes, in the case of multicast) > identified in the Destination Address field of the IPv6 header. >=20 > to the above one in RFC8200 shouldn't have caused the painful debate > regarding the implication of SRv6. =20 In my mind it did because some people claimed that RFC2460 did allow = insertion and deletion since it only prohibited =E2=80=9Cexamining and = processing=E2=80=9D the headers. The controversy was because some people = were opposed to the prohibition for insertion and deletion be explicit. > We should have known this change > would make the SRv6-style insertion/deletion a violation of the RFC > even more clearly than RFC2460 at that time, and that's why we needed > that discussion. Just so we are clear, SRv6 is defined in = draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 and it does not have anything = about header insertion. Some earlier versions of the draft did and I was = clear that it needed to be removed for it to progress from 6man. The = authors removed the insertion mode from the draft. Thanks Suresh= From nobody Thu Feb 27 14:44:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7A923A0E5F; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:44:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7yluStZMnPql; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:44:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C35693A0E5A; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:44:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (unknown [181.45.84.85]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3011780A41; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 23:44:08 +0100 (CET) To: Suresh Krishnan , =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= Cc: Ron Bonica , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Fernando Gont , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming References: <5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D9364A1C2@DGGEMM532-MBX.china.huawei.com> <4038_1582727829_5E568295_4038_168_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DB381A@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <8ca30058-b8cf-cba4-524d-99b34e2b01d6@gont.com.ar> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <10c1f886-7c77-478a-ed3d-eb2cdc3cd2db@si6networks.com> Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 19:43:25 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 22:44:23 -0000 On 27/2/20 19:34, Suresh Krishnan wrote: > Hi Jinmei, > >> On Feb 27, 2020, at 5:18 PM, 神明é”哉 wrote: >> >> At Thu, 27 Feb 2020 21:29:24 +0000, >> Ron Bonica wrote: >> >>> The question is whether PSP violates the following clause from Section 4 of RFC 8200: >>> >>> "Extension headers (except for the Hop-by-Hop Options header) are not >>> processed, inserted, or deleted by any node along a packet's delivery >>> path, until the packet reaches the node (or each of the set of nodes, >>> in the case of multicast) identified in the Destination Address field >>> of the IPv6 header." >>> >>> A literal reading of this text suggest that any segment endpoint (i.e., any node referenced in the Routing Header) can process, insert, or delete any extension header. This is because when a packet arrives at a segment endpoint, one of its addresses appears in the IPv6 Destination Address field. >> >> Please see my response to my own message. Yes, purely "literally", it >> could read that way (it's amazing human-written text can be always >> ambiguous to some extent, no matter how hard we try to clarify it), > > Yes, this is unfortunate. We ended up strengthening some constraints while leaving some others open. While I would (and do) interpret things exactly as you did, it is impossible to determine after the fact if a different text formulation would have gotten consensus. What we have is the text of RFC8200. That's why we have erratas. The intent of RFC8200 is very clear. And I'm not sure how, having being involved in such discussion, you question the intent. And if you don't, what would be your argument to process the errata I've submitted in any other way than "Verified". >> We should have known this change >> would make the SRv6-style insertion/deletion a violation of the RFC >> even more clearly than RFC2460 at that time, and that's why we needed >> that discussion. > > Just so we are clear, SRv6 is defined in draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26 and it does not have anything about header insertion. Some earlier versions of the draft did and I was clear that it needed to be removed for it to progress from 6man. The authors removed the insertion mode from the draft. No, we are not clear: PSP does extension header removal. -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Thu Feb 27 14:57:47 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3924F3A045B; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:57:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.999, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CSrRxCHx_XJK; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:57:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x235.google.com (mail-oi1-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A0EF3A041A; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:57:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x235.google.com with SMTP id q81so1017991oig.0; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:57:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=zCLPK7Cpy8RkoHpAnX2TnhqkCpbLbeKxHpHHsDIrk8Y=; b=nf4DCtG4GV403+hWGMdSQociBuCNC7Iq//GU9M8FPPm7ELtJzLngL4+2/kCXrfOivi DH2Gxdd7ttUGALexaS6fHxRLItEMD6Bz1bry1FPXEqrVbSNH7NZnVLlMtNvpBit6mCch ecYp+nlnUoKJu3RW04VInCMbp7D2vQoJPrELe9wbJv8pTHq29WEw5BPHeLLM3YbjE9Vc sqIBhml+X0yIzathGKABHqMWHTb3F9yVb/TVcHgcvV/sE8sUYbDHLkpJmLpKuXEPkD+e 2cR8sv528gLHnLDtqup28o1AfIItP/99lmPu7XtFmFgao85TgC/Ah/MYI5V5fFMgvWk+ pLlg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=zCLPK7Cpy8RkoHpAnX2TnhqkCpbLbeKxHpHHsDIrk8Y=; b=O5SY52U3ml45e7KB6y/A9CJDTeig6AzoEbV160iMCbhRl+5ujsCMlaREmJO+cHzqDY 53zu5bQhthXIqkT1lYKIPG+b4xl52wnYwGjKU2Ox/KCs2Sxj/EBHyn1x5Z7zav4Zs5c0 Sq3fU15d+cfcT+ln570wF/9CjWvzEipz7tNI9tRsiiZYJFRBIlU0N7bVfbg6pT1yiqTe ooqqg8zC1CvgxFhruemcrPW0rYsRTglBLXRKPXg8zdBXcGSHJhjPT+fpPCjzPGMGkQym Zh0dQ9BtJbSuMLAqEKemM6jTElFrwfgRQdUobhXVFei3SSZOJQqIXL6c10V5DTlLo6um m59g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXK2NI7B5rVrR8ud9jmxjlHw1FeSybzWtiE2gNNVG3cS5ZblifT FQEnoZMRZ3VBPGkb1LrArDhVPdF/YYOvfMU6Y/DRLA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx4YPEZNvtVTs9uvzdfL/yLBl/GW7hCrhCyC17ki0NjjW5qQTV8sGCVMzaafeA5k/WIdrv12NmccLlrX0rjFRE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:916:: with SMTP id w22mr1038150oih.7.1582844258803; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:57:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D9364A1C2@DGGEMM532-MBX.china.huawei.com> <4038_1582727829_5E568295_4038_168_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DB381A@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <8ca30058-b8cf-cba4-524d-99b34e2b01d6@gont.com.ar> In-Reply-To: From: Mark Smith Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 09:57:12 +1100 Message-ID: To: Ron Bonica Cc: =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= , Fernando Gont , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 22:57:41 -0000 Hi Ron, On Fri, 28 Feb 2020 at 08:30, Ron Bonica wrote: > > Jinmei, > > The current discussion is about Penultimate Segment Popping (PSP) (Sectio= n 4.16). Normally, when an IPv6 node processes a packet that includes a Rou= ting header with Segment Left equal to 1, the node decrements Segments Left= and forwards the packet, with the Routing header intact. In PSP, when an I= Pv6 node processes a packet that includes a Routing header with Segment Lef= t equal to 1, the node removes the Routing header and forwards the packet, = without the Routing header. > > The question is whether PSP violates the following clause from Section 4 = of RFC 8200: > > "Extension headers (except for the Hop-by-Hop Options header) are not > processed, inserted, or deleted by any node along a packet's delivery > path, until the packet reaches the node (or each of the set of nodes, > in the case of multicast) identified in the Destination Address field > of the IPv6 header." > > A literal reading of this text suggest that any segment endpoint (i.e., a= ny node referenced in the Routing Header) can process, insert, or delete an= y extension header. This is because when a packet arrives at a segment endp= oint, one of its addresses appears in the IPv6 Destination Address field. > Some other text that is relevant to the above Section 4 from Section 4.4, "Routing Header": "The Routing header is used by an IPv6 source to list one or more intermediate nodes to be "visited" on the way to a packet's destination." Can intermediate node DAs ever be multicast IPv6 addresses? If the answer was no, then that means that "until the packet reaches the node (or each of the set of nodes, in the case of multicast) identified in the Destination Address field of the IPv6 header." can only be referring to final unicast or final multicast DAs, not the intermediate node DAs in an RH. I wondered if SIDs in the the SRH could be multicast. 'draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10' doesn't mention the word 'multicast' at all, and neither does 'draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26'. Regards, Mark. > At least one RFC contradicts this literal reading. Section 3.3.3.1.1.2 of= RFC 4302 says that the payload length and next header fields of the IPv6 h= eader are immutable. PSP would change both of these and break AH processing= . > > When RFC 4302 was published, nobody questioned the assumption that the pa= yload length and next header fields of the IPv6 header are immutable. There= fore, we can assume that it was a commonly held belief. > > Some argue that none of this is a problem because the SRH is incompatible= with the IPv6 Authentication header (see Section 7.5 of draft-ietf-6man-se= gemnt-routing-header-26). > > Others argue that PSP may break more than IPv6 AH. Other applications may= , may concur with the RFC 4302 reading of RFC 8200. If they rely on payload= length and next header fields of the IPv6 header being immutable, they wil= l also break. > > Ron > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > -----Original Message----- > From: spring On Behalf Of ???? > Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 2:40 PM > To: Fernando Gont > Cc: bruno.decraene@orange.com; SPRING WG List ; 6man@iet= f.org; Lizhenbin ; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming > Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC = - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming > > At Wed, 26 Feb 2020 11:45:14 -0300, > Fernando Gont wrote: > > > So... is the plan to ship a document that violates RFC8200? > > Please forgive me asking some clarification question that seems to be obv= ious for others: which part of > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10 violates RFC8200? From a q= uick read of it, Section 4.16 seems to describe the removal of an extension= header from an IPv6 packet at a forwarding node. Is that the one referenc= ed as a violation? Or is it something else, or are there others in additio= n to 4.16? > > -- > JINMEI, Tatuya > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring_= _;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!X7yacQY8b6Y0TpWJZiqa09s9YN5jOWOtfAZJteY4jOHczN4U3b7fl6FDtYP= DLknI$ > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Thu Feb 27 15:05:58 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5466B3A0442 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 15:05:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.999, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DqRE2UwLIsKr for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 15:05:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x230.google.com (mail-oi1-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4CC8A3A07F3 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 15:05:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x230.google.com with SMTP id i1so987357oie.8 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 15:05:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=QsETZBBzxVC7Usq+SCOEpsnXH3hkrRtGt9OMAtRcv18=; b=vCdyWFNsympMqvoIlsxTU+Uh/KxRXCIhvro/G1yWCtAweVy+FcNuw5GS6F2qEcthPE KKSo6clxyYyUv8nrhuM+ZHD9pwcezZx2PrispHaOC4c2ePRAIPNqzqEawPQnVNB8TRgB y1Af3vH/QMpZWjaaKtLVYXg0evvjm1y8fxMPJd5sv/yn0Y10uSvXMrItHFrrmjHLO5Zo n4op/VcGaJpT7kacuFmnz4n3xIpON10NTrJpWiOIhjhJCTPvcgWwl4X7OyXLKDkS38mA Nq/+OaZEIiFxZB48KTWc12mGKP3WEKfmbvc4jj/Qjw56smJ9J8zwCHVkHkUmS4ZhONC+ WfGQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=QsETZBBzxVC7Usq+SCOEpsnXH3hkrRtGt9OMAtRcv18=; b=hKMNHJhE7sZ/zj8tM7ZSH6LPQh9VNt6EAN/eNy8ft/NkFz8j9Cloy33b0DSv7vtB23 f28V0Wc+w5LAKDXs62+7jFjm9V+zWqPuJK8kY1yzE5wXkbMxI33Q8ulgzUyTtGBsqXyB SrtHCIBg06bf/mSUdldH11drYS9SsOTUXiHfquJbDhL8C2ieRHPdPto6rvlI8g28awIw resvWSKRHQu20sPj+XhB/fuxdGe5sfkdOC+SZsrjHadj3Q2VAr/lPX0zip3lstukQVQK rS2803Pnp284lPD0AMrJbS622y8l87x0Y8g6CKSDjrT5e/x7aF3wE7db1xW5HS659du4 epTQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUYf7KByV+C6TawKuX+vmYEaf0U/EZNZGXaSQsu2V3Kc5Jf2oL4 Z5rfOeRmSukeNVSvqjYZeWzHPdnn1gImuiqMMp0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyqewxs42XLpxo2alyZw+Pk4B9WGKXwEnur1DV5A6NOZ6vELyiCM+6a/qIvmxwB6qOiHoaSVmy2RKJG5yijU+g= X-Received: by 2002:aca:4306:: with SMTP id q6mr1099880oia.54.1582844747635; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 15:05:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5C583745-894A-4B9C-83B0-9AF8F85D3A3A@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <5C583745-894A-4B9C-83B0-9AF8F85D3A3A@cisco.com> From: Mark Smith Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 10:05:21 +1100 Message-ID: To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" Cc: "spring@ietf.org" , "Voyer, Daniel" , "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] A permanent change to/violation of RFC8200 for a temporary situation. (Re: Is srv6 PSP a good idea) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 23:05:57 -0000 Hi Pablo, On Fri, 28 Feb 2020 at 07:51, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote: > > Mark, > > Both the SRv6 control plane and dataplane operate between PEs. The legacy= egress PE only executes End.DT/End.DX and is not capable of doing SRH proc= essing at linerate in the use-case described by Dan. I understand that. It would never occur to me to extend a control plane domain past the edge of the forwarding plane domain that it controls. That is something I've never seen before in any control plane/forwarding plane protocol pair scenario. So I'm wondering why do it when it is so unconventional. What value does it add? What was the thinking behind doing that? >And as a reminder this is only one of the use-cases of PSP. > This is the only one that makes me slightly sympathetic to the idea of PSP. Regards, Mark. > Cheers, > Pablo. > > =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message----- > From: spring on behalf of Mark Smith > Date: Thursday, 27 February 2020 at 11:43 > To: "Voyer, Daniel" > Cc: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" , "spring@ietf.org" = > Subject: [spring] A permanent change to/violation of RFC8200 for a tempor= ary situation. (Re: Is srv6 PSP a good idea) > > On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 at 09:14, Voyer, Daniel wr= ote: > > > > I agree 100% with Jingrong, > > > > PSP allows us to bring SRv6 to legacy PE devices that are not capab= le of processing the SRH in the dataplane, but are capable of supporting SR= v6 in the control plane. > > > > See this example: > > I am streaming traffic from a server to a customer; > > The ingress PE (near the server) encapsulates the packet and adds a= n SRH with a low-latency list of segments; > > The penultimate node in the SRH executes PSP; > > The egress PE (near the customer) decapsulates the IPv6 header and = forwards the inner packet to the customer. > > > > I want to understand this example better, because it sounds very stra= nge to me. > > So the SRv6 control plane is extended past the edge of the SRv6 > forwarding plane? > > In all other protocols and networks I'm aware of, the control plane > domain and devices, and the forwarding plane domain and devices > it/they controls are either congruent, or the control plane is > "smaller" than the forwarding plane e.g. a couple of BGP Route > Reflectors controlling a cluster of many more routers. > > What value is an SRv6 control plane on a router/PE that doesn't > implement the SRv6 forwarding plane? > > This value would only exist during a temporary period until the route= r > forwarding plane could be upgraded to an SRv6 forwarding plane, > returning to the common convention of congruent control and forwardin= g > planes. > > So it seems in this case that RFC 8200 is being violated with the PSP > proposal to accommodate extending an SRv6 control plane past a > network's SRv6 forwarding plane for a relatively short temporary > period, for any particular network, perhaps no more than 2 to 3 years > maximum. > > Why not have the SRv6 control and forwarding domains always match, as > is usual and conventional for other matched pairs of control and > forwarding plane protocols and deployments, including new > protocol/forwarding plane deployments, and entirely avoid the issue o= f > fundamental violations of or making fundamental changes to a full > Internet standard protocol? > > > We can include SLA unidirectionally from the server to the customer= even though that the egress PE has a legacy ASIC. Legacy equipment are a r= eality and are not easy to replace, hence interoperability with brownfield = is key for any innovative approach. > > > > This is exactly the fundamental justification for not violating RFC > 8200, and only minimally extending it where necessary and permitted, > fitting within the architecture rather than trying to change it. As > much SR magic as possible should be put into the much easier to > upgrade control plane, ideally avoiding or at least minimising > forwarding IPv6 plane changes. > > Regards, > Mark. > > > > > > dan > > > > On 2019-12-10, 11:15 PM, "spring on behalf of Xiejingrong (Jingrong= )" wrote: > > > > I think it's a good idea. > > Nothing new, but benefits that people have already said seems n= otable to me. > > > > (1) reduce the load of final destination. This benefit can be n= otable for the following sub reasons. > > (1.1) final destination tends to have heavy load. It need to ha= ndle all the EHs and do the delivery/demultiplex the packet to the right ov= erlay service. > > (1.2) example 1, the final destination may need to handle the D= OH after the RH. > > (1.3) example 2, the final destination may need to do the assem= bly of fragmented packets. > > (1.4) example 3, the final destination may need to do AH/ESP af= ter the Fragmentation Header. > > (1.5) example 4, the final destination may need to deliver the = packet to the right overlay service. > > > > (2) support the incremental deployment when final destination(s= ) do not process/recognize SRH. This benefit can be notable for the followi= ng sub reasons. > > (2.1) A core router may (fan-out) connected with a big number o= f low-end routers that do not support SRH but support tunnel-end/service-de= multiplex function of SRv6. > > > > Thanks > > Jingrong > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel= M. Halpern > > Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2019 10:55 AM > > To: spring@ietf.org > > Subject: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea > > > > For purposes of this thread, even if you think PSP violates RFC= 8200, let us assume that it is legal. > > > > As I understand it, the PSP situation is: > > o the packet arrives at the place (let's not argue about whethe= r SIDs are locators) identified by the SID in the destination address field= o that SID is the next to last SID in the SID list o that sid is marked as= / known to be PSP o at the intended place in the processing pseudocode, th= e last (first) entry in the SRH is copied into the destination IPv6 address= field of the packet > > -> The SRH being used is then removed from the packet. > > > > In order to evaluate whether this is a good idea, we have to ha= ve some idea of the benefit. It may be that I am missing some of the benef= it, and I would appreciate clarification. > > As far as I can tell, the benefit of this removal is that in ex= change for this node doing the work of removing the SRH, the final node in = the SRH does not have to process the SRH at all, as it has been removed. > > > > I have trouble seeing how that work tradeoff can be beneficial. > > Removing bytes from the middle of a packet is a complex operati= on. > > Doing so in Silicon (we expect this to be done in the fast path= of significant forwarders as I understand it) requires very special provis= ion. Even in software, removing bytes from the middle of a packet requires= somewhere between some and a lot of extra work. It is distinctly NOT free= . > > > > In contrast, we have assumed that the work of processing SRH it= self is tractable, since otherwise all of SRv6 would be problematic. So wh= y is this necessary. > > > > Yours, > > Joel > > > > PS: Note that both the MPLS case and the encapsulation case are= very different in that the material being removed is at the front of the I= P packet. Pop or prepend are MUCH easier than middle-removal (or middle-in= sertion). > > > > _______________________________________________ > > spring mailing list > > spring@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > > > _______________________________________________ > > spring mailing list > > spring@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > ---------------------------------------------------------------= --------------- > > External Email: Please use caution when opening links and attac= hments / Courriel externe: Soyez prudent avec les liens et documents joints > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > spring mailing list > > spring@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > From nobody Thu Feb 27 15:06:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com 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definitions=main-2002270155 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 23:06:36 -0000 TWFyaywNCg0KR29vZCBwb2ludC4gSSB0aGluayB0aGF0ICJUaGUgRGV2aWwncyBQYXJhZ3JhcGgi IGluIFJGQyA4MjAwIG1heSBiZSBhbWJpZ3VvdXMuIFdlIHNob3VsZCB0aWdodGVuIGl0IHVzIHVz aW5nIHdoYXRldmVyIG1lY2hhbmlzbSB0aGUgQUQncyBzdWdnZXN0LiANCg0KQ2xlYXJseSwgdGhp cyB3aWxsIHRha2UgdGltZS4gVW50aWwgdGhlbiwgd2Ugc2hvdWxkIHByb2JhYmx5IGhhbW1lciBv dXQgc29tZSBjb21wcm9taXNlIHNvIHRoYXQgdGhlIGJ1bGsgb2YgdGhlIG5ldHdvcmsgcHJvZ3Jh bW1pbmcgZHJhZnQgY2FuIHByb2dyZXNzLiBJIHN1Z2dlc3Qgc3VjaCBhIGNvbXByb21pc2UgaW4g aHR0cHM6Ly9tYWlsYXJjaGl2ZS5pZXRmLm9yZy9hcmNoL21zZy9pcHY2L0NqX0kyOGRwWFExdUtQ 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tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4LaY9kJFtuJC; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 16:48:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-f48.google.com (mail-wr1-f48.google.com [209.85.221.48]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 568B43A0A8B; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 16:48:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-f48.google.com with SMTP id v2so998985wrp.12; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 16:48:31 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; 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<8ca30058-b8cf-cba4-524d-99b34e2b01d6@gont.com.ar> <2ABD702A-21C0-488D-B83B-46261CB8072F@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <2ABD702A-21C0-488D-B83B-46261CB8072F@cisco.com> From: =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 16:48:17 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" Cc: Fernando Gont , SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 00:48:33 -0000 At Thu, 27 Feb 2020 23:41:18 +0000, "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" wrote: > Hi Jinmei, allow me to address the two technical concerns you raise > in this email, upon which it appears this interpretation of RFC8200 > hinges for you. You state: > > Aside from that this > > interpretation logically doesn't make sense as it's not compatible > > with AH or PMTUD, if it could be justified with that logic, we > > wouldn't have had to go through the long debate in promoting RFC2460 > > I know a lot of documentation and work has been done with SPRING and 6man since that debate. > > 1 - I expect everyone reviewing and commenting on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming (NETPGM) to have fully read draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header (SRH) as stated in section 1 NETPGM. > 1.1 - remember SRH section 5 defines a deployment model for the SR domain applicable to both documents. > > 2 - AH is not defined for SRH (section 7.5 of SRH) so the question of how SRH with a PSP SID affects AH is not applicable to NETPGM. > > 3 - PMTUD within an SR domain is unaffected by PSP. > 3.1 - Section 5.3 of SRH, provides recommendation on how MTU is handled within an SR Domain for traffic encapsulated for its journey within the SR domain. i.e. it is not reliant on PMTUD within the SR Domain. > 3.2 - Regardless, as others have stated, performing PSP and reducing the size of a packet has no impact on PMTUD. > > I hope this helps clarify your understanding of the current state of the art vs what may have been assumed at some point in the past before this was clarified by 6man and SPRING. This is not my point (I was actually afraid about having this type of response when referring to AH/PMTUD. In retrospect it was probably a mistake...); I didn't mean NETPGM violates RFC8200 because it would be incompatible with AH/PMTUD. My point was that it doesn't make sense to refer to the phrase "the node...identified in the Destination Address field of the IPv6 header" to justify the argument that NETPGM doesn't violate RFC8200. Now, please note that I'm not necessarily saying that the NETPGM draft shouldn't move forward simply because it violates RFC8200. If the authors/WG believe NETPGM can be an exception to this part of RFC, it should say it updates this part of RFC8200 and explain why it's justified (where the discussion about AH/PMTUD will matter). This will certainly draw more attention from various kinds of reviewers and you may find it difficult to defend the claim for these reviewers, but I don't think it necessarily impossible. The current version of the draft doesn't do this, and authors and its supporters just seem to dismiss the RFC violation with the awkward reference to the "Destination Address" text. That's what concerned me. -- JINMEI, Tatuya From nobody Thu Feb 27 17:13:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73F013A0B14; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 17:13:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.799 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YorSHhOwwYSV; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 17:13:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C408A3A0B0E; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 17:13:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from LHREML713-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 65A6E3246626DCA97E6C; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 01:13:44 +0000 (GMT) Received: from NKGEML414-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.98.56.75) by LHREML713-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.36) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 01:13:43 +0000 Received: from NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com ([fe80::a54a:89d2:c471:ff]) by nkgeml414-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 09:13:39 +0800 From: Tianran Zhou To: Haoyu Song , Robert Raszuk CC: "ippm-chairs@ietf.org" , "spring@ietf.org" , "ippm@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [spring] Monitoring metric to detect and locate congestion Thread-Index: AQHV7a7Ptdmb5GKzfkCnUw2fl3Hat6gvyZ+g Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 01:13:38 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 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ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fgI3L6ee8tHM for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 17:30:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x231.google.com (mail-lj1-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 26FD53A0B83 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 17:30:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x231.google.com with SMTP id e18so1412585ljn.12 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 17:30:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=nO1u0acldJhuOFtvIWIep1Y971xmGYRxutbD2B1r+m4=; b=orV8IjMo4s/QPQMQqfPyg4t8i9pifDeQAV3ucqh+lPg+8LvWgyHAQ6NSlrcFHAg9zM 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X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vv2LuhwYqVWrTC+uu/qmcUdlhULs3ieseKIuOUngs+3LHb417LMy6V5wA5R+4p/c1X+NTyEe+gN1PH21B6GWEc= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:b0e3:: with SMTP id h3mr1143439ljl.56.1582853438173; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 17:30:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <17421_1575566127_5DE93B2F_17421_93_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D1A3DA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <238769EE-8272-420D-A2A4-BFECCE6E09AC@cisco.com> <70A6F938-29B0-473E-8559-7E20C7E992BD@cisco.com> <5BF8B291-479F-400C-A551-8EF76F8F8090@cisco.com> <96CDB8DF-1741-4165-81CD-DEFE39416911@cisco.com> <16588C97-EE7C-4F41-8232-DA66758C566D@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <16588C97-EE7C-4F41-8232-DA66758C566D@cisco.com> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 17:30:27 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" Cc: "spring@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e9f4b6059f98c8c4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 01:30:45 -0000 --000000000000e9f4b6059f98c8c4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Pablo, thank you and al lthe authors for kind consideration of my comments, much appreciated. I've found all my comments being address in the latest version of the draft= . I'll now discuss with Zafar OAM-specific aspects of using some of behaviors defined in the SRv6 network programming. Would be the most helpful if you share your views. I hope you will agree if I keep you in the loop. Regards, Greg On Sun, Feb 23, 2020 at 12:12 PM Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) < pcamaril@cisco.com> wrote: > Hi Greg, > > > > As per your feedback we=E2=80=99ve removed the reference to the OAM draft= from the > document. > > We=E2=80=99ve also removed the counters 2 and 3, keeping in this document= the only > counter specific to this document. > > > > These changes have already been incorporated into revision 10. Many thank= s > for the review. > > > > Cheers, > > Pablo. > > > > *From: *Greg Mirsky > *Date: *Tuesday, 11 February 2020 at 17:38 > *To: *"Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" > *Cc: *"spring@ietf.org" > *Subject: *Re: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming > > > > Hi Pablo, > > thank you for considering my comments and making the update. I think that > it is up to others interested, in particular in OAM of SRv6, to share the= ir > opinions regarding the relationship between this draft and SRv6 OAM > document > that is in 6man WG. Maybe Chairs of SPRING WG will reach out to 6man WG t= o > consider the relationship between the documents. > > Regarding the counters being defined in the document. I think that the > primary use of counters is by OAM. Thus, I think it would be appropriate = to > define and demonstrate the use of these counters in SRv6 OAM specificatio= n. > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Fri, Feb 7, 2020 at 2:03 AM Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) < > pcamaril@cisco.com> wrote: > > Greg, > > > > We have published an updated revision of the draft that incorporates the > change. See more inline PC2. > > > > Many thanks, > > Pablo. > > > > *From: *Greg Mirsky > *Date: *Monday, 27 January 2020 at 06:36 > *To: *"Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" > *Cc: *"spring@ietf.org" > *Subject: *Re: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming > > > > Hi Pablo, > > thank you for your thoughtful consideration of my comments. Please find m= y > new notes in-line below tagged GIM>>. > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 11:08 PM Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) < > pcamaril@cisco.com> wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > > > Inline. > > > > Thanks, > > Pablo. > > > > *From: *Greg Mirsky > *Date: *Sunday, 19 January 2020 at 20:28 > *To: *"Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" > *Cc: *"spring@ietf.org" > *Subject: *Re: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming > > > > Hi Pablo, > > thank you for sharing your opinion. I understand that you believe that > draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam will not change and will be published wit= h > defining the O-flag as > > O-flag: OAM flag. When set, it indicates that this packet is an > operations and management (OAM) packet. > > I, on the other hand, am much less certain that that draft and SRv6 OAM, > in general, require the special flag in SRH. I believe that progressing > the draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming with the current text and > the informative reference increases the likelihood that an Errata must be > filed one the SRv6 OAM draft is published. > > > > PC: > > I believe that we can trim the text in section 6.3 to avoid mentioning th= e > O-bit without reducing the overall quality of the document. > > > > [I-D.ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam] defines OAM behaviors for SRv6. This > > includes the definition of the SRH Flag 'O-bit', as well as > > additional SR Endpoint behaviors for OAM purposes. > > > > > > [I-D.ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam] defines OAM behaviors for SRv6. This > > includes the definition of additional SR Endpoint behaviors for OAM > purposes. > > > > Do you agree with this change? > > GIM>> I agree that the new text is more clear and less dependent on the > discussion of I-D.ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam. Though the "OAM behaviors fo= r > SRv6" that are introduced in the draft, i.e., "punt the packet" and "punt > the packet with a timestamp", are being discussed and may change as the > result of the discussion by 6man WG. Hence I think that it be better to n= ot > to reference I-D.ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam altogether. > > > > PC2: I have updated the draft to remove the reference to O-bit as you > agreed. > > Regarding removing the full reference to the OAM draft: I believe that th= e > new text is generic enough as to be good regardless of the changes during > the WG LC of the OAM draft. I believe that the reference is useful for > someone implementing it. > > > > And as we're discussing a sub-section in the Operation section, I've got > few questions on counters, hope you don't mind: > > =C2=B7 As this is part of the operational considerations, should = there > be any recommendation on the length of the counters? > > PC: Counter length is implementation dependent. The capabilities of > different platforms have significant hairpin as to make any recommendatio= n > irrelevant. > > =C2=B7 Also, the usual drawback of detailed statistics to charact= erize > a flow is scaling. Any consideration and recommendation on that? > > PC: There is no per-flow statistics. It is a counter per SRv6 SID. An SRv= 6 > SID is shared among different flows. No per-flow scaling is required. > > =C2=B7 And last. I didn't find any of these counters being discus= sed > in draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam. Perhaps you can help me with a > reference to the SRv6 document that uses them. > > PC: The counters are required by the controller. Its usage is out of the > scope of this document. > > GIM>> I think that if SRv6 OAM was part of the network programming draft, > then defining these counters, that are, in my understanding, an integral > part of SRv6 OAM, logical, in the right place. But since SRv6 OAM is > discussed in the draft of its own, I suggest considering moving Section 6= .1 > Counters to I-D.ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam. > > > > PC2: The counters are part of the architecture and in my opinion do not > belong to the OAM draft. The usage of the counters are beyond the OAM dra= ft. > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 10:23 AM Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) < > pcamaril@cisco.com> wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > > > Inline. > > > > Thank you, > > Pablo. > > > > *From: *Greg Mirsky > *Date: *Sunday, 12 January 2020 at 04:01 > *To: *=E2=80=9CPablo Camarillo (pcamaril)=E2=80=9D > *Cc: *=E2=80=9Cspring@ietf.org=E2=80=9D > *Subject: *Re: WGLC =E2=80=93 draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming > > > > Hi Pablo, > > thank you for your expedient response. Please find my new notes under > GIM>> tag below in-line. > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 1:09 PM Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) < > pcamaril@cisco.com> wrote: > > Hi Greg, > > > > Inline. > > > > Thanks, > > Pablo. > > > > *From: *Greg Mirsky > *Date: *Tuesday, 7 January 2020 at 21:01 > *To: *Bruno Decraene > *Cc: *SPRING WG List , =E2=80=9C6man@ietf.org=E2=80=9D <= 6man@ietf.org>, > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming < > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org> > *Subject: *Re: WGLC =E2=80=93 draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming > *Resent from: * > *Resent to: *, , , < > daniel.voyer@bell.ca>, , < > lizhenbin@huawei.com> > *Resent date: *Tuesday, 7 January 2020 at 21:01 > > > > Dear Authors, WG Chairs, et al., > > I hope I=E2=80=99m not too late with my comments and questions on the doc= ument. > Please kindly consider them as WG LC comments: > > =C2=B7 I have a question regarding the following pseudo-code: > > S08. Max_LE =3D (Hdr Ext Len / 2) =E2=80=93 1 > > S09. If ((Last Entry > max_LE) or (Segments Left > (Last Entry+1)) { > > S10. Send an ICMP Parameter Problem to the Source Address, > > Code 0 (Erroneous header field encountered), > > Pointer set to the Segments Left field. > > Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet. > > S11. } > > > > According to RFC 8200, Hdr Ext Len is the length of the extension header > in 8-octet units, not including the first 8 octets. Thus, as I understand= , > max_LE is the length in 8-octet units of half of the extension header les= s > one. On the other hand, Last Entry and Segments Left are indices. Hence m= y > question, What is being compared in line S09 ( Last Entry > max_LE)? Leng= th > and index? If the goal is to use Hdr Ext Len to calculate the number of > entries in the header, then what assumption is used in S08? Is it that th= e > entry=E2=80=99s length is always and only 128 bits, i.e. 16 octets? I bel= ieve that > using such an assumption is too narrowing and limiting to SRH. > > > > PC: This has already been discussed with Adrian. Please check this thread= : > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/IOA_4nlNPacD2v7Jue2dkGeOABk > > GIM>> Thank you for the reference. In some aspects, part of my statement > is repeating your answer to Adrain. The only length on an element in SRH > considered is 128 bits, the length of IPv6 address. I think that your > explanation of how you have arrived at th following formula > > S08. Max_LE =3D (Hdr Ext Len / 2) =E2=80=93 1 > > will benefit the document. > > My question to you and SPRING WG goes beyond this scenario. Considering > presented in Singapore Unified Identifier proposals ( > draft-mirsky-6man-unified-id-sr > and > draft-wmsaxw-6man-usid-id-use > ), > I believe other scenarios of using SRH, with elements of length other tha= n > 128 bits should be accommodated, e.g., 32 bits-long elements. > > i. > > > > PC: It is up to the draft-mirsky authors to standardize in their draft th= e > changes to the SRH processing. As per today the draft-mirsky proposal is > still an individual document. > > > > =C2=B7 Another question is to Section 6.3. What value do you see = in > this section? I've noticed that draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam is in the > Informational References section. I agree with that for the first sentenc= e > in the section. But I believe that the second sentence that refers to the > new O-bit and OAM behaviors defined in draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam > requires it to be moved into the Normative References section. Unless > you'll decide to remove the section altogether. > > PC: The O-bit and OAM behaviors described in > draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam are not required to understand or impleme= nt > the technology described in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming. > However, they are relevant as to provide additional information to the > reader. Why would it be a normative reference? > > GIM>> Ali and I are discussing several aspects of > draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam. For example, the O-bit is applicable to > any OAM operation or to some part of them. Note that OAM apparatus usuall= y > considered to include Fault Management and Performance Monitoring > protocols. Both may operate as proactive or on-demand. Is the O-bit > applicable to all OAM methods? Then, Fault Management OAM supports > Continuity Check, Connectivity Verification and, for some networks, > Automatic Protection Coordination. How O-bit is used in these methods? No= w, > to the Performance Monitoring OAM. I think that the O-bit can be only use= d > in dual-ended one-way PM OAM. How O-bit may be used in single-ended two-w= ay > PM OAM? Can the O-bit support the Loss Measurement? As you may see, there > are many questions to discuss and clarify in the document. I can imagine > that the result of our work on draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam may be > somewhat different from its current form. How to ensure synchronization > between SRv6 programming and OAM specifications? > > > > PC: The current reference in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming > does not explain particular mechanisms of draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam= . > It only says that draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam defines OAM mechanisms > for SRv6 as well as the O-bit. This is flexible enough as to be correct > regardless of the changes that you make during the WGLC to > draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam. > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 9:15 AM wrote: > > Hello SPRING, > > > > This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-sprin= g-srv6-network-programming [1]. > > > > Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent version, an= d send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later than December 20. > > > > You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not dupli= cating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which are only spri= ng specifics. > > > > If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically debated = on the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread for this point. > > This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this point and = that other points get forgotten (or that the thread get converted into para= llel independent discussions) > > > > Thank you, > > Bruno > > > > [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programmin= g-05 > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________= ________________________________________________ > > > > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confid= entielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc > > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez re= cu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler > > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages = electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, > > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme o= u falsifie. Merci. > > > > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged i= nformation that may be protected by law; > > they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. > > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and de= lete this message and its attachments. > > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have bee= n modified, changed or falsified. > > Thank you. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > --000000000000e9f4b6059f98c8c4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Pablo,
thank you and al lthe authors for kind consi= deration of my comments, much appreciated.
I've found all my = comments being address in the latest version of the draft.
I'= ll now discuss with Zafar OAM-specific aspects of using some of behaviors d= efined in the SRv6 network programming. Would be the most helpful if you sh= are your views. I hope you will agree if I keep you in the loop.
=
Regards,
Greg

On Sun, Feb 23, 2020 at 12:12 P= M Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcam= aril@cisco.com> wrote:

Hi Greg,

=C2=A0

As per your feedback we=E2=80= =99ve removed the reference to the OAM draft from the document.

We=E2=80=99ve also removed the = counters 2 and 3, keeping in this document the only counter specific to thi= s document.

=C2=A0

These changes have already been= incorporated into revision 10. Many thanks for the review.

=C2=A0

Cheers,

Pablo.

=C2=A0

From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com= >
Date: Tuesday, 11 February 2020 at 17:38
To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
Cc: "sprin= g@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

=C2=A0

Hi Pablo, <= /p>

thank you for considering= my comments and making the update. I think that it is up to others interes= ted, in particular in OAM of SRv6, to share their opinions regarding the re= lationship between this draft and SRv6 OAM document that is in 6man WG. Maybe Chairs of= SPRING WG will reach out to 6man WG to consider the relationship between t= he documents.

Regarding the counters be= ing defined in the document. I think that the primary use of counters is by= OAM. Thus, I think it would be appropriate to define and demonstrate the u= se of these counters in SRv6 OAM specification.

=C2=A0

Regards,

Greg

=C2=A0

On Fri, Feb 7, 2020 at 2:= 03 AM Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril@cisco.com> wrote:

Greg,

=C2=A0

We have published an updated revision of the draft tha= t incorporates the change. See more inline PC2.

=C2=A0

Many thanks,

Pablo.

=C2=A0

From: Greg Mirsky <gregi= mirsky@gmail.com><= br> Date: Monday, 27 January 2020 at 06:36
To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pc= amaril@cisco.com><= br> Cc: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

=C2=A0

Hi Pablo,

thank you for your thoughtful consideration of my comments. Please find my = new notes in-line below tagged GIM>>.

=C2=A0

Regards,

Greg

=C2=A0

On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 11:08 PM Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril@cisco.com> wro= te:

Hi Greg,

=C2=A0

Inline.

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Pablo.

=C2=A0

From: Greg Mirsky <gregi= mirsky@gmail.com><= br> Date: Sunday, 19 January 2020 at 20:28
To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pc= amaril@cisco.com><= br> Cc: "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

=C2=A0

Hi Pablo,

thank you for sharing your opinion. I understand that you believe=C2=A0that= draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam will not change and will be published with= defining the O-flag as=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 O-flag: OAM flag.=C2=A0 When set, it indicates that th= is packet is an
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 operations and management (OAM) packet.

I, on the other hand, am much less certain that that draft and SRv6 OAM, in= general, require the special flag in SRH. I believe that progressing the= =C2=A0draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming with the current text and = the informative reference increases the=C2=A0likelihood=C2=A0that an Errata must be filed one the SRv6 OAM draft is published.

=C2=A0

PC:

I believe that we can trim the text in section 6.3 to = avoid mentioning the O-bit without reducing the overall quality of the docu= ment.

<old>

=C2=A0=C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam] defines OAM behaviors= for SRv6.=C2=A0 This

=C2=A0=C2=A0 includes the definition of the SRH Flag 'O-bit', a= s well as

=C2=A0=C2=A0 additional SR Endpoint behaviors for OAM purposes.<= /p>

</old>

<new>

=C2=A0=C2=A0 [I-D.ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam] defines OAM behaviors for = SRv6.=C2=A0 This

=C2=A0=C2=A0 includes the definition of additional SR Endpoint behaviors for O= AM purposes.

</new>

Do you agree with this change?

GIM>> I agree that the new text is more clear and less dependent on t= he discussion of=C2=A0I-D.ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam. Though the "OAM b= ehaviors for SRv6" that are introduced in the draft, i.e., "punt = the packet" and "punt the packet with a timestamp", are bein= g discussed and may change as the result of the discussion by 6man WG. Hence= I think that it be better to not to reference=C2=A0 =C2=A0I-D.ietf-6man-sp= ring-srv6-oam altogether.

=C2=A0

PC2: I have updated the draft to remove the reference = to O-bit as you agreed.

Regarding removing the full reference to the OAM draft= : I believe that the new text is generic enough as to be good regardless of= the changes during the WG LC of the OAM draft. I believe that the referenc= e is useful for someone implementing it.

=C2=A0

And as we're discussing a sub-section in the Operation section, I'v= e got few questions on counters, hope you don't mind:

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 As this is part of the operational considerations, should there be a= ny recommendation on the length of the counters?

PC: Counter length is implementation dependent. The ca= pabilities of different platforms have significant hairpin as to make any r= ecommendation irrelevant.

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Also, the usual drawback of detailed statistics to characterize a fl= ow is scaling. Any consideration and recommendation on that?

PC: There is no per-flow statistics. It is a counter p= er SRv6 SID. An SRv6 SID is shared among different flows. No per-flow scali= ng is required.

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 And last. I didn't find any of these counters being discussed in= =C2=A0draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam. Perhaps you can help me with a refer= ence to the SRv6 document that uses them.

PC: The counters are required by the controller. Its u= sage is out of the scope of this document.

GIM>> I think that if SRv6 OAM was part of the network programming dr= aft, then defining these counters, that are, in my understanding, an integr= al part of SRv6 OAM, logical, in the right place. But since SRv6 OAM is dis= cussed in the draft of its own, I suggest considering moving Section 6.1 Counters to I-D.ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam.<= /p>

=C2=A0

PC2: The counters are part of the architecture and in = my opinion do not belong to the OAM draft. The usage of the counters are be= yond the OAM draft.

Regards,

Greg

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 10:23 AM Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril@cisco.com> wro= te:

Hi Greg,

=C2=A0

Inline.

=C2=A0

Thank you,

Pablo.

=C2=A0

From: <= /b>Greg Mirsky &l= t;gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Sunday, 12 January 2020 at 04:01
To: =E2=80=9CPablo Camarillo (pcamaril)=E2=80=9D <pcamaril= @cisco.com>
Cc: =E2=80=9Cspring@ietf.org=E2=80=9D <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: WGLC =E2=80=93 draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming

=C2=A0

Hi Pablo,

thank you for your expedient response. Please find my = new notes under GIM>> tag below in-line.

=C2=A0

Regards,

Greg

=C2=A0

On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 1:09 PM Pablo Camarillo (pcama= ril) <pcamaril@cisco.com> wr= ote:

Hi Greg,

=C2=A0

Inline.

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Pablo.

=C2=A0

From: <= /b>Greg Mirsky &l= t;gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, 7 January 2020 at 21:01
To: Bruno Decraene <brun= o.decraene@orange.com>
Cc: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.or= g>, =E2=80=9C6man@ietf.org=E2=80=9D <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-prog= ramming@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: WGLC =E2=80=93 draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming
Resent from: <alias-= bounces@ietf.org>
Resent to: <cf@cisco.com>, <pcamaril@cisco.com>, <john@leddy.net>, <daniel.voyer@bell.ca>, <satoru.matsushima@g.= softbank.co.jp>, <lizhenbin@huawei.com<= /span>> Resent date: Tuesday, 7 January 2020 at 21:01

=C2=A0

Dear Authors, WG Chairs, et al.,

I hope I=E2=80=99m not too late with my comments and q= uestions on the document. Please kindly consider them as WG LC comments:

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I have a question regarding the following pseud= o-code:

=C2=A0 S08. =C2=A0 Max_LE =3D (Hdr Ext Len / 2) =E2=80= =93 1

=C2=A0 S09. =C2=A0 If ((Last Entry > max_LE) or (Se= gments Left > (Last Entry+1)) {

=C2=A0 S10. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Send an ICMP Parameter= Problem to the Source Address,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0Code 0 (Erroneous header field encountered),

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0Pointer set to the Segments Left field.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0Interrupt packet processing and discard the packet.

=C2=A0 S11. =C2=A0 }

=C2=A0

According to RFC 8200, Hdr Ext Len is the length of th= e extension header in 8-octet units, not including the first 8 octets. Thus= , as I understand, max_LE is the length in 8-octet units of half of the ext= ension header less one. On the other hand, Last Entry and Segments Left are indices. Hence my question, What is= being compared in line S09 ( Last Entry > max_LE)? Length and index? If= the goal is to use Hdr Ext Len to calculate the number of entries in the h= eader, then what assumption is used in S08? Is it that the entry=E2=80=99s length is always and only 128 bits,= i.e. 16 octets? I believe that using such an assumption is too narrowing a= nd limiting to SRH.

=C2=A0

PC: This has already been discussed with Adrian. Pleas= e check this thread: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/I= OA_4nlNPacD2v7Jue2dkGeOABk

GIM>> Thank you for the reference. In some aspec= ts, part of my statement is repeating your answer to Adrain. The only lengt= h on an element in SRH considered is 128 bits, the length of IPv6 address. = I think that your explanation of how you have arrived at th following formula

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 S08. =C2=A0 Max_LE =3D (Hdr Ext Len / 2)= =E2=80=93 1=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0will benefit the document.=C2=A0

My question to you and SPRING WG goes beyond this scen= ario. Considering presented in Singapore Unified Identifier proposals (draft-mirsky-6man-unified-id-s= r=C2=A0and=C2=A0draft-wmsaxw-6man-usid-id-use), I believe other scenarios of using SRH, with elements of length other than= 128 bits should be accommodated, e.g., 32 bits-long elements.

i.

=C2=A0

PC: It is up to the draft-mirsky authors to standardiz= e in their draft the changes to the SRH processing. As per today the draft-= mirsky proposal is still an individual document.

=C2=A0

=C2=B7=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Another question is to Section 6.3. What value = do you see in this section? I've noticed that draft-ietf-6man-spring-sr= v6-oam is in the Informational References section. I agree with that for th= e first sentence in the section. But I believe that the second sentence that refers to the new O-bit and OAM beha= viors defined in=C2=A0 draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam requires it to be mo= ved into the Normative References section. Unless you'll decide to remo= ve the section altogether.

PC: The O-bit and OAM behaviors described in draft-iet= f-6man-spring-srv6-oam are not required to understand or implement the tech= nology described in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming. However, th= ey are relevant as to provide additional information to the reader. Why would it be a normative reference?

GIM>> Ali and I are discussing several aspects o= f draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam. For example, the O-bit is applicable to = any OAM operation or to some part of them. Note that OAM apparatus usually = considered to include Fault Management and Performance Monitoring protocols. Both may operate as proactive or on-dema= nd. Is the O-bit applicable to all OAM methods? Then, Fault Management OAM = supports Continuity Check, Connectivity Verification and, for some networks= , Automatic Protection Coordination. How O-bit is used in these methods? Now, to the Performance Monitoring OAM= . I think that the O-bit can be only used in dual-ended one-way PM OAM. How= O-bit may be used in single-ended two-way PM OAM? Can the O-bit support th= e Loss Measurement? As you may see, there are many questions to discuss and clarify in the document. I can ima= gine that the result of our work on draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam may be = somewhat different from its current form. How to ensure synchronization bet= ween SRv6 programming and OAM specifications?

=C2=A0

PC: The current reference in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-ne= twork-programming does not explain particular mechanisms of draft-ietf-6man= -spring-srv6-oam. It only says that draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam defines= OAM mechanisms for SRv6 as well as the O-bit. This is flexible enough as to be correct regardless of the chan= ges that you make during the WGLC to draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam.

=C2=A0

Regards,

Greg

=C2=A0

On Thu, Dec 5, 2019 at 9:15 AM <bru= no.decraene@orange.com> wrote: 

Hello SPRING,<=
/pre>

=C2=A0


This email starts a t=
wo weeks Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programm=
ing [1].


=C2=A0


Please read this docu=
ment if you haven't read the most recent version, and send your comment=
s to the SPRING WG list, no later than December 20.


=C2=A0


You may copy the 6MAN=
 WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not duplicating emails on the 6M=
AN mailing list for the comments which are only spring specifics.

=C2=A0


If you are raising a =
point which you expect will be specifically debated on the mailing list, co=
nsider using a specific email/thread for this point.


This may help avoidin=
g that the thread become specific to this point and that other points get f=
orgotten (or that the thread get converted into parallel independent discus=
sions)


=C2=A0


Thank you,

Bruno


=C2=A0


[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-i=
etf-spring-srv6-network-programming-05


=C2=A0



=C2=A0


________________________=
___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________
=C2=A0
Ce message et ses pieces=
 jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees =
et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, explo=
ites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, =
veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le=
 detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant su=
sceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute res=
ponsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<=
/pre>

=C2=A0


This message and its att=
achments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be pro=
tected by law;


they should not be distr=
ibuted, used or copied without authorisation.


If you have received thi=
s email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its =
attachments.


As emails may be altered=
, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or fal=
sified.


Thank you.

------------------------------------------------------= --------------
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ipv6@ietf.org
Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mai= lman/listinfo/ipv6
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nkgeml411-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.98.56.70]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 09:37:06 +0800 From: Tianran Zhou To: Haoyu Song , Robert Raszuk CC: "ippm-chairs@ietf.org" , "spring@ietf.org" , "ippm@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [spring] Monitoring metric to detect and locate congestion Thread-Index: AQHV7a7Ptdmb5GKzfkCnUw2fl3Hat6gvyZ+g//+APYCAAIhwMA== Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 01:37:05 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.203.162] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_BBA82579FD347748BEADC4C445EA0F21BF254F30NKGEML515MBXchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Monitoring metric to detect and locate congestion X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: 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by 2002:a63:b347:: with SMTP id x7mr2154288pgt.275.1582854453728; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 17:47:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] ([165.84.25.143]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q66sm8949606pfq.27.2020.02.27.17.47.30 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 27 Feb 2020 17:47:33 -0800 (PST) To: Stefano Salsano , "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" , Warren Kumari , John Leddy Cc: SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden , "Zafar Ali (zali)" References: <5D218BFB-0D6F-4F7D-858F-B571A67DC47F@leddy.net> <8a20c0e2-e651-0294-03c2-4b89c44549cc@uniroma2.it> <53226b1c-6ac5-24b0-4787-a7ccfd9723af@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:47:28 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: [spring] "penultimate segment" [Re: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming] X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 01:47:36 -0000 Stefano, The problem is that the draft simply doesn't explain (or refer to an expl= anation) of what this "penultimate segment" is. There are at least three = hypotheses which I suspect different people are using, leading to this en= dless dialogue: 1) It's a forwarding node, a.k.a. a router, that blindly follows the PSP = instructions by removing an IPv6 header before forwarding the packet, com= pletely against the text of RFC 8200. 2) It's a node that receives and terminates the packet, and then makes a = new one with its own address as source and a new (ultimate) destination a= ddress, which doesn't happen to contain an SRH header at all. 3) It's an offload processor in the destination node, that removes some c= rud (the SRH header) before passing the packet up to the IPv6 stack in th= e host. At the moment, a reader of the draft who is not familiar with the details= of at least one SRH implmentation cannot decide which of these hypothese= s is correct. Despite numerous requests, and several new versions, the draft still leav= es this mystery intact, and is therefore simply not ready for the IESG. So I repeat my request for the draft to explain what it means by "pop" an= d by "penultimate segment". If it turns out that we are in case 2) or 3) = above, problem solved. Regards Brian Carpenter On 28-Feb-20 00:42, Stefano Salsano wrote: > Brian, >=20 > Il 2020-02-27 03:29, Brian E Carpenter ha scritto: >> Stefano, >> On 27-Feb-20 14:42, Stefano Salsano wrote: >>> Il 2020-02-27 02:14, Brian E Carpenter ha scritto: >>>> Eric, >>>> >>>> On 27-Feb-20 12:18, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote: >>>>> Writing this without any hat, >>>>> >>>>> Please note that on the logical side, it still have to be "proven" = that this idea is strictly forbidden by RFC 8200. >>>> >>>> The draft uses an undefined term ("pop") but it does *explicitly* st= ate in a section called "Penultimate Segment Pop of the SRH": >>>> >>>>>> S14.4. Remove the SRH from the IPv6 extension header chain >>>> >>>> If the word "penultimate" means what it means in every dictionary, t= his is in-flight removal of a header, and that is explicitly against RFC = 8200, section 4, first paragraph below the diagram. >>> >>> Brian, >>> >>> "penultimate segment" means what it means in every dictionary, but th= is >>> is not in-fligth removal of a header. >>> >>> When the packet has reached the "penultimate segment", it has reached= a >>> node "identified in the Destination Address field of the IPv6 header"= as >>> stated in RFC 8200, section 4, first paragraph below the diagram >> >> So in what sense is it penultimate (i.e. next to last)? If it has reac= hed >> the destination address,=20 >=20 > if the segment list is [S1, S2, S3] (where S1 is the first segment and = > S3 the final destination) >=20 > S2 is the penultimate segment and the packet is received by S2 with=20 > Destination Address =3D S2, I repeat that at the very end of section 3 = of=20 > RFC 8200 the "Destination address" is defined as "address of the=20 > intended recipient of the packet (possibly not the ultimate recipient, = > if a Routing header is present)" >=20 >> what happens next? >=20 > next the packet needs to be forwarded to S3 >=20 >> I understand this for the following case, Ultimate Segment Pop, where = the >> text refers to processing the packet inside the receiving node. But th= e >> text is completely lacking an explanation of the "penultimate" case, >> and I found nothing about it in other SRH documents either. >> >> If I was writing code for this, I would have no idea how to generate a= >> test case. >> >> It's also obscure in the text how the node receiving a packet knows >> which of "PSP, USP and USD flavors" applies. They don't seem to be mar= ked >> in the packet in any way. >=20 > it is not marked in the packet, likewise it is not marked in the packet= =20 > which SRv6 behavior is associated with a SID >=20 > Stefano >=20 >> >> It seems to me that there is something blindingly obvious to SRH speci= alists >> that is not stated at all in the draft, so the rest of us simply can't= make >> sense of it. It may or may not be a gap in the protocol, but there is >> definitely a gap in the description. >> >> Brian >> >>> >>> Please note that at the very end of section 3 the "Destination addres= s" >>> is defined as "address of the intended recipient of the packet (possi= bly >>> not the ultimate recipient, if a Routing header is present)" >>> >>> Stefano >>> >>>> >>>> It's possible that "penultimate" means something else, e.g. "ultimat= e". I don't know. I've been puzzling over this language for months and it= doesn't change. Maybe someone can finally post an explanation, but until= they do, I don't see how any WG Chair could assert rough consensus. An o= bviously organised +1+1+1+1 campaign is not consensus. I don't know about= you, but when I see a message whose only content is "+1" I just delete i= t. >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>>> Moreover, this 'proof' can technically wait until the IETF last cal= l or even until the IESG ballot. I see little point in postponing the clo= sing of the WGLC and advancing the document (of course, the document shep= herd will need to carefully write the section about the rough WG consensu= s). >>>>> >>>>> Finally, as far as I know, at the IETF we have no religion... else = we would still be running NCP or IPv4 :-) >>>>> >>>>> -=C3=A9ric >>>>> >>>>> =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message----- >>>>> From: ipv6 on behalf of Warren Kumari >>>>> >>>>> ...%<...%<.... >>>>> =20 >>>>> It doesn't really matter how many people say +1 for moving it= forwards >>>>> -- if there are valid technical objections these have to be d= ealt with >>>>> - and I think that the relationship with RFC8200 falling into= this >>>>> category... >>>>> =20 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------= - >>>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>>>> ipv6@ietf.org >>>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6= >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------= - >>>>> >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------= >>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>>> ipv6@ietf.org >>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------= >>>> >>> >>> >> >=20 >=20 From nobody Thu Feb 27 17:51:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 821753A0C18; 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Thu, 27 Feb 2020 17:51:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] ([165.84.25.143]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i68sm8626930pfe.173.2020.02.27.17.51.17 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 27 Feb 2020 17:51:19 -0800 (PST) To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" Cc: Lizhenbin , "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> References: <5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D9364A1C2@DGGEMM532-MBX.china.huawei.com> <67ECB7F5-86E5-4AE9-B8EB-B06203978B35@cisco.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <6b395f68-678c-8bec-9cd5-0f29d3b3f8fd@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:51:15 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <67ECB7F5-86E5-4AE9-B8EB-B06203978B35@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 01:51:28 -0000 Pablo, I have been looking at the latest version. See my previous note to Stefan= o Salsano. I really think that the problem here is that certain things ar= e obvious to SRH experts but not to others, and they simply need more exp= lanation in elementary terms. Regards Brian Carpenter On 28-Feb-20 09:38, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) wrote: > Brian, >=20 >> For example, the word "pop" is used but still not defined. In comp= uter science, it generally refers to popping a stack. I understand that i= n the MPLS context (a label stack) but not in the IPv6 context, where the= re is no stack in the header. >=20 > You raised such comment on December 7th 2020 at the mailer with respect= to draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-05. > We iterated throughout December publishing the clarifications that you = requested in rev06 and 07. > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/Y7XKvgshM8ces-HbkT2uQa37a_= w/ > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/VpLfcUvDXHzMOU6fTE1_XPzhd6= 8/ > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/mXcsWXaISqjzs7g_fJZYhcKabg= Y/ >=20 > Also, the word pop is still used in the section title, but it has been = removed from the definition of the behavior. >=20 > Could you please see the latest version of the draft? >=20 > Thanks, > Pablo. >=20 > =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message----- > From: Brian E Carpenter > Date: Wednesday, 26 February 2020 at 21:57 > To: Lizhenbin , "bruno.decraene@orange.com" , 'SPRING WG List' > Cc: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming > Subject: Re: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft= -ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming > Resent from: > Resent to: , , , , , > Resent date: Wednesday, 26 February 2020 at 21:57 >=20 > > In the process all the comments have been resolved=20 > =20 > Unfortunately, this is not true. > =20 > For example, the word "pop" is used but still not defined. In compu= ter science, it generally refers to popping a stack. I understand that in= the MPLS context (a label stack) but not in the IPv6 context, where ther= e is no stack in the header. > =20 > The text explaining penultimate segment pop, quite apart from using= "pop" in this undefined way, still does not explain how it is compatible= with the RFC8200 interdiction of inserting or removing headers en route.= It explicitly describes removing a header before the final routing hop, = which is explicitly against RFC8200. > =20 > As far as I'm concerned, these comments have been brushed aside. > =20 > The fact that there's running code is good, but it doesn't resolve = anything in the text. > =20 > Regards > Brian Carpenter > =20 >=20 From nobody Thu Feb 27 18:04:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A41B23A0C06 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 18:04:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BKT_0NyaJlWs for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 18:04:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from ESA2-Wyn.bell.ca (esa2-wyn.bell.ca [67.69.243.180]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB1033A0C09 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 18:04:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from dm5cch-d01.bellca.int.bell.ca (HELO DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca) ([198.235.102.31]) by esa02corp-wyn.bell.corp.bce.ca with ESMTP; 27 Feb 2020 21:04:11 -0500 Received: from DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca (2002:8eb6:120e::8eb6:120e) by DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca (2002:8eb6:120e::8eb6:120e) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 21:04:10 -0500 Received: from DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca ([fe80::75af:23bf:bdc5:ef10]) by DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca ([fe80::75af:23bf:bdc5:ef10%22]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.003; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 21:04:10 -0500 From: "Voyer, Daniel" To: Fernando Gont , "Darren Dukes (ddukes)" , Mark Smith CC: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" , Ron Bonica , "spring@ietf.org" , "Joel M. Halpern" , "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" Thread-Topic: [EXT]Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea Thread-Index: AQHV7bJ0bpOy+REWkUqOZdp+v4Gd96gv7gOA///tSoA= Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 02:04:10 +0000 Message-ID: References: <5c2a4b36-0c59-709e-23eb-00f4aa1ce52f@joelhalpern.com> <9B89F4C2-5594-4D31-8893-21F3F4A0DF6C@cisco.com> <58ED78D3-9E0C-4556-8853-8754B361DF6D@cisco.com> <81A30B25-9857-467E-85AE-1FE84B6F3197@cisco.com> <05981e2ea71c4b3083ed6e15c7e20641@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.22.0.200209 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.28.92.3] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <920E47D291E65846A660BC5C95EEFE42@exchange.bell.ca> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Is srv6 PSP a good idea X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 02:04:16 -0000 UmlkaWN1bG91cyAuLiAgYW55IE5PUyBjb2RlciwgY29kaW5nIElQdjYsIHdvdWxkIGhhdmUgYXdh cmVuZXNzIG9mIDI0NjAsIHdoeSB3b3VsZCB5b3UgZXZlbiBnbyB0aGVyZSAuLiBzZXJpb3VzbHkg Pw0KDQpUaGUgaGlnaGxpZ2h0IHdhcyBmb3I6IGh0dHBzOi8vdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC9k cmFmdC1pZXRmLTZtYW4tc2VnbWVudC1yb3V0aW5nLWhlYWRlci0yNiNwYWdlLTQgLSB5b3Ugc2hv dWxkIHByb2JsIHJlYWQgaXQgYWxsLg0KDQpJIHRoaW5rIHdlJ3ZlIHJlYWNoIHRoZSBsaW1pdCBv ZiB3aGF0IHRoZSAiSUVURiBlbWFpbCIgY2FuIG9mZmVyIGZvciBzdWNoIGRlYmF0ZS4gV2Ugc2hv dWxkIHByb2JhYmx5IGhhdmUgYSBjYWxsIG9yIG1lZXQgYXQgMTA3Lg0KDQpXaGlsZSByZWFkaW5n IHRoZSAibG9uZ2VyIGV4cGxhbmF0aW9uIiwgZG9uJ3QgZm9yZ2V0IHRvIGxvb2t1cCB0aGUgcmVw bHkgaGVyZToNCmh0dHBzOi8vbWFpbGFyY2hpdmUuaWV0Zi5vcmcvYXJjaC9tc2cvaWV0Zi9ydE1v bTA1cjdfcExxMXpOMmxmMTZfQjU4bUUvDQoNCmRhbg0KDQrvu79PbiAyMDIwLTAyLTI3LCA1OjEx IFBNLCAic3ByaW5nIG9uIGJlaGFsZiBvZiBGZXJuYW5kbyBHb250IiA8c3ByaW5nLWJvdW5jZXNA aWV0Zi5vcmcgb24gYmVoYWxmIG9mIGZlcm5hbmRvQGdvbnQuY29tLmFyPiB3cm90ZToNCg0KICAg IE9uIDI3LzIvMjAgMTg6MTEsIERhcnJlbiBEdWtlcyAoZGR1a2VzKSB3cm90ZToNCiAgICA+IE1h cmsgQUggaXMgbm90IGRlZmluZWQgZm9yIFNSSC4gIFRoZXJlIGlzIG5vIHNwZWNpZmljYXRpb24g dG8gaWdub3JlLg0KICAgIA0KICAgIERvIHlvdSByZWFsaXplIHRoYXQgeW91IGFyZSB1c2luZyBJ UHY2LCBhbmQgdGhhdCBBSCBpcyBzcGVjaWZpZWQgZm9yIElQdjY/DQogICAgDQogICAgSXMgdGhl IEFEIHdhdGNoaW5nPyAtLSBTZXJpb3VzbHksIHRoaXMgaXMgZ29pbmcgdGhyb3VnaCBhIHZlcnkg Y3VyaW91cyANCiAgICBhbmQgZGFuZ2Vyb3VzIHBhdGguDQogICAgDQogICAgRm9yIHRoZSBpbnRl cmVzdGVkIHJlYWRlciwgYSBsb25nZXIgZXhwbGFuYXRpb24gb2YgdGhlIGlzc3VlOg0KICAgIGh0 dHBzOi8vbWFpbGFyY2hpdmUuaWV0Zi5vcmcvYXJjaC9tc2cvaWV0Zi9zYmI5NUJxZFBpZnVSYl9O UGMzYWVpcUJiZk0vDQogICAgDQogICAgVGhhbmtzLA0KICAgIC0tIA0KICAgIEZlcm5hbmRvIEdv bnQNCiAgICBlLW1haWw6IGZlcm5hbmRvQGdvbnQuY29tLmFyIHx8IGZnb250QHNpNm5ldHdvcmtz LmNvbQ0KICAgIFBHUCBGaW5nZXJwcmludDogNzgwOSA4NEY1IDMyMkUgNDVDNyBGMUM5IDM5NDUg OTZFRSBBOUVGIEQwNzYgRkZGMQ0KICAgIA0KICAgIA0KICAgIA0KICAgIF9fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQogICAgc3ByaW5nIG1haWxpbmcgbGlz dA0KICAgIHNwcmluZ0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KICAgIGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4v bGlzdGluZm8vc3ByaW5nDQogICAgLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tDQogICAgRXh0ZXJuYWwg RW1haWw6IFBsZWFzZSB1c2UgY2F1dGlvbiB3aGVuIG9wZW5pbmcgbGlua3MgYW5kIGF0dGFjaG1l bnRzIC8gQ291cnJpZWwgZXh0ZXJuZTogU295ZXogcHJ1ZGVudCBhdmVjIGxlcyBsaWVucyBldCBk b2N1bWVudHMgam9pbnRzDQogICAgDQoNCg== From nobody Thu Feb 27 18:07:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E6A43A0C1F; 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bh=phyibu421ftqXOsCR6t8PPg7NXcq/LQbPKRsui1l0n4=; b=fglHeePmPmaxACF1zda7fXNZT/aBZx1lIQG19EW9EH0jjVkyXOGvF5GIAExuyNaMpudDpe PytlRdhfiujUduAgJV769TsPhRfXdcSeTqDrDbpWDZH31D+yLyYkyiYQOCchp6wzeBpx2o YGGdPopEMJhjfm3RgmXXAzUrXqlH3xDB7EHnW9kTbedEGHlXESs8ULGjkQKUEwsmg8bcis 8yVWrOUqijS8CzZai17RaSKnbTP0LAVALCjOj2pnmDStpCINNqEo31w3vtCJjdTe8NIx7d qKHLECs40q0DcQx9tA/QdXYfAYG30Wm0989CLizqC0lr4lN4sKkghSFNlHYDyQ== To: Brian E Carpenter , "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" , Warren Kumari , John Leddy Cc: SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden , "Zafar Ali (zali)" References: <5D218BFB-0D6F-4F7D-858F-B571A67DC47F@leddy.net> <8a20c0e2-e651-0294-03c2-4b89c44549cc@uniroma2.it> <53226b1c-6ac5-24b0-4787-a7ccfd9723af@gmail.com> From: Stefano Salsano Message-ID: Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 03:06:50 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: it-IT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.100.0 at smtp-2015 X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] "penultimate segment" [Re: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming] X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 02:07:11 -0000 Brian, Il 2020-02-28 02:47, Brian E Carpenter ha scritto: > Stefano, > > The problem is that the draft simply doesn't explain (or refer to an explanation) of what this "penultimate segment" is. There are at least three hypotheses which I suspect different people are using, leading to this endless dialogue: > > 1) It's a forwarding node, a.k.a. a router, that blindly follows the PSP instructions by removing an IPv6 header before forwarding the packet, completely against the text of RFC 8200. it is a forwarding node, a.k.a. a router, which follows the PSP instructions and removes the SRH before forwarding the packet let me disagree with you on the part "completely against the text of RFC 8200" :-) Stefano > > 2) It's a node that receives and terminates the packet, and then makes a new one with its own address as source and a new (ultimate) destination address, which doesn't happen to contain an SRH header at all. > > 3) It's an offload processor in the destination node, that removes some crud (the SRH header) before passing the packet up to the IPv6 stack in the host. > > At the moment, a reader of the draft who is not familiar with the details of at least one SRH implmentation cannot decide which of these hypotheses is correct. > > Despite numerous requests, and several new versions, the draft still leaves this mystery intact, and is therefore simply not ready for the IESG. > > So I repeat my request for the draft to explain what it means by "pop" and by "penultimate segment". If it turns out that we are in case 2) or 3) above, problem solved. > > Regards > Brian Carpenter > > On 28-Feb-20 00:42, Stefano Salsano wrote: >> Brian, >> >> Il 2020-02-27 03:29, Brian E Carpenter ha scritto: >>> Stefano, >>> On 27-Feb-20 14:42, Stefano Salsano wrote: >>>> Il 2020-02-27 02:14, Brian E Carpenter ha scritto: >>>>> Eric, >>>>> >>>>> On 27-Feb-20 12:18, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote: >>>>>> Writing this without any hat, >>>>>> >>>>>> Please note that on the logical side, it still have to be "proven" that this idea is strictly forbidden by RFC 8200. >>>>> >>>>> The draft uses an undefined term ("pop") but it does *explicitly* state in a section called "Penultimate Segment Pop of the SRH": >>>>> >>>>>>> S14.4. Remove the SRH from the IPv6 extension header chain >>>>> >>>>> If the word "penultimate" means what it means in every dictionary, this is in-flight removal of a header, and that is explicitly against RFC 8200, section 4, first paragraph below the diagram. >>>> >>>> Brian, >>>> >>>> "penultimate segment" means what it means in every dictionary, but this >>>> is not in-fligth removal of a header. >>>> >>>> When the packet has reached the "penultimate segment", it has reached a >>>> node "identified in the Destination Address field of the IPv6 header" as >>>> stated in RFC 8200, section 4, first paragraph below the diagram >>> >>> So in what sense is it penultimate (i.e. next to last)? If it has reached >>> the destination address, >> >> if the segment list is [S1, S2, S3] (where S1 is the first segment and >> S3 the final destination) >> >> S2 is the penultimate segment and the packet is received by S2 with >> Destination Address = S2, I repeat that at the very end of section 3 of >> RFC 8200 the "Destination address" is defined as "address of the >> intended recipient of the packet (possibly not the ultimate recipient, >> if a Routing header is present)" >> >>> what happens next? >> >> next the packet needs to be forwarded to S3 >> >>> I understand this for the following case, Ultimate Segment Pop, where the >>> text refers to processing the packet inside the receiving node. But the >>> text is completely lacking an explanation of the "penultimate" case, >>> and I found nothing about it in other SRH documents either. >>> >>> If I was writing code for this, I would have no idea how to generate a >>> test case. >>> >>> It's also obscure in the text how the node receiving a packet knows >>> which of "PSP, USP and USD flavors" applies. They don't seem to be marked >>> in the packet in any way. >> >> it is not marked in the packet, likewise it is not marked in the packet >> which SRv6 behavior is associated with a SID >> >> Stefano >> >>> >>> It seems to me that there is something blindingly obvious to SRH specialists >>> that is not stated at all in the draft, so the rest of us simply can't make >>> sense of it. It may or may not be a gap in the protocol, but there is >>> definitely a gap in the description. >>> >>> Brian >>> >>>> >>>> Please note that at the very end of section 3 the "Destination address" >>>> is defined as "address of the intended recipient of the packet (possibly >>>> not the ultimate recipient, if a Routing header is present)" >>>> >>>> Stefano >>>> >>>>> >>>>> It's possible that "penultimate" means something else, e.g. "ultimate". I don't know. I've been puzzling over this language for months and it doesn't change. Maybe someone can finally post an explanation, but until they do, I don't see how any WG Chair could assert rough consensus. An obviously organised +1+1+1+1 campaign is not consensus. I don't know about you, but when I see a message whose only content is "+1" I just delete it. >>>>> >>>>> Brian >>>>> >>>>>> Moreover, this 'proof' can technically wait until the IETF last call or even until the IESG ballot. I see little point in postponing the closing of the WGLC and advancing the document (of course, the document shepherd will need to carefully write the section about the rough WG consensus). >>>>>> >>>>>> Finally, as far as I know, at the IETF we have no religion... else we would still be running NCP or IPv4 :-) >>>>>> >>>>>> -éric >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: ipv6 on behalf of Warren Kumari >>>>>> >>>>>> ...%<...%<.... >>>>>> >>>>>> It doesn't really matter how many people say +1 for moving it forwards >>>>>> -- if there are valid technical objections these have to be dealt with >>>>>> - and I think that the relationship with RFC8200 falling into this >>>>>> category... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>>>>> ipv6@ietf.org >>>>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>>>> ipv6@ietf.org >>>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> > -- ******************************************************************* Stefano Salsano Professore Associato Dipartimento Ingegneria Elettronica Universita' di Roma Tor Vergata Viale Politecnico, 1 - 00133 Roma - ITALY http://netgroup.uniroma2.it/Stefano_Salsano/ E-mail : stefano.salsano@uniroma2.it Cell. : +39 320 4307310 Office : (Tel.) +39 06 72597770 (Fax.) +39 06 72597435 ******************************************************************* From nobody Thu Feb 27 18:28:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 055C23A0C74; 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Thu, 27 Feb 2020 18:28:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] ([165.84.25.143]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d4sm22432pjg.19.2020.02.27.18.28.14 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 27 Feb 2020 18:28:17 -0800 (PST) To: Stefano Salsano , "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" , Warren Kumari , John Leddy Cc: SPRING WG List , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden , "Zafar Ali (zali)" References: <5D218BFB-0D6F-4F7D-858F-B571A67DC47F@leddy.net> <8a20c0e2-e651-0294-03c2-4b89c44549cc@uniroma2.it> <53226b1c-6ac5-24b0-4787-a7ccfd9723af@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <7c160180-9ba6-b082-5e97-6d4db6034e99@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 15:28:12 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] "penultimate segment" [Re: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming] X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 02:28:21 -0000 On 28-Feb-20 15:06, Stefano Salsano wrote: > Brian, >=20 > Il 2020-02-28 02:47, Brian E Carpenter ha scritto: >> Stefano, >> >> The problem is that the draft simply doesn't explain (or refer to an e= xplanation) of what this "penultimate segment" is. There are at least thr= ee hypotheses which I suspect different people are using, leading to this= endless dialogue: >> >> 1) It's a forwarding node, a.k.a. a router, that blindly follows the P= SP instructions by removing an IPv6 header before forwarding the packet, = completely against the text of RFC 8200. >=20 > it is a forwarding node, a.k.a. a router, which follows the PSP=20 > instructions and removes the SRH before forwarding the packet So could the draft make this explicit, because I guarantee you it is not = in the least obvious to the non-expert reader? =20 > let me disagree with you on the part "completely against the text of RF= C=20 > 8200" :-) You are trying to squeeze through a very small hole in the relevant parag= raph of RFC8200. Either the draft should not do that, or it should explai= n precisely what this hole is, so that the IETF & IESG can decide whether= they agree. Let's be clear, we're talking about a routing header which in some unclea= r circumstances instructs a certain router to delete the header en route.= It's unclear because the draft doesn't really explain the "flavors" such= as PSP or how a router knows algorithmically when to apply the PSP flavo= r. I don't see how that can be left as an implementation issue. Regards Brian >=20 > Stefano >=20 >> >> 2) It's a node that receives and terminates the packet, and then makes= a new one with its own address as source and a new (ultimate) destinatio= n address, which doesn't happen to contain an SRH header at all. >> >> 3) It's an offload processor in the destination node, that removes som= e crud (the SRH header) before passing the packet up to the IPv6 stack in= the host. >> >> At the moment, a reader of the draft who is not familiar with the deta= ils of at least one SRH implmentation cannot decide which of these hypoth= eses is correct. >> >> Despite numerous requests, and several new versions, the draft still l= eaves this mystery intact, and is therefore simply not ready for the IESG= =2E >> >> So I repeat my request for the draft to explain what it means by "pop"= and by "penultimate segment". If it turns out that we are in case 2) or = 3) above, problem solved. >> >> Regards >> Brian Carpenter >> >> On 28-Feb-20 00:42, Stefano Salsano wrote: >>> Brian, >>> >>> Il 2020-02-27 03:29, Brian E Carpenter ha scritto: >>>> Stefano, >>>> On 27-Feb-20 14:42, Stefano Salsano wrote: >>>>> Il 2020-02-27 02:14, Brian E Carpenter ha scritto: >>>>>> Eric, >>>>>> >>>>>> On 27-Feb-20 12:18, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote: >>>>>>> Writing this without any hat, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Please note that on the logical side, it still have to be "proven= " that this idea is strictly forbidden by RFC 8200. >>>>>> >>>>>> The draft uses an undefined term ("pop") but it does *explicitly* = state in a section called "Penultimate Segment Pop of the SRH": >>>>>> >>>>>>>> S14.4. Remove the SRH from the IPv6 extension header chain >>>>>> >>>>>> If the word "penultimate" means what it means in every dictionary,= this is in-flight removal of a header, and that is explicitly against RF= C 8200, section 4, first paragraph below the diagram. >>>>> >>>>> Brian, >>>>> >>>>> "penultimate segment" means what it means in every dictionary, but = this >>>>> is not in-fligth removal of a header. >>>>> >>>>> When the packet has reached the "penultimate segment", it has reach= ed a >>>>> node "identified in the Destination Address field of the IPv6 heade= r" as >>>>> stated in RFC 8200, section 4, first paragraph below the diagram >>>> >>>> So in what sense is it penultimate (i.e. next to last)? If it has re= ached >>>> the destination address, >>> >>> if the segment list is [S1, S2, S3] (where S1 is the first segment an= d >>> S3 the final destination) >>> >>> S2 is the penultimate segment and the packet is received by S2 with >>> Destination Address =3D S2, I repeat that at the very end of section = 3 of >>> RFC 8200 the "Destination address" is defined as "address of the >>> intended recipient of the packet (possibly not the ultimate recipient= , >>> if a Routing header is present)" >>> >>>> what happens next? >>> >>> next the packet needs to be forwarded to S3 >>> >>>> I understand this for the following case, Ultimate Segment Pop, wher= e the >>>> text refers to processing the packet inside the receiving node. But = the >>>> text is completely lacking an explanation of the "penultimate" case,= >>>> and I found nothing about it in other SRH documents either. >>>> >>>> If I was writing code for this, I would have no idea how to generate= a >>>> test case. >>>> >>>> It's also obscure in the text how the node receiving a packet knows >>>> which of "PSP, USP and USD flavors" applies. They don't seem to be m= arked >>>> in the packet in any way. >>> >>> it is not marked in the packet, likewise it is not marked in the pack= et >>> which SRv6 behavior is associated with a SID >>> >>> Stefano >>> >>>> >>>> It seems to me that there is something blindingly obvious to SRH spe= cialists >>>> that is not stated at all in the draft, so the rest of us simply can= 't make >>>> sense of it. It may or may not be a gap in the protocol, but there i= s >>>> definitely a gap in the description. >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Please note that at the very end of section 3 the "Destination addr= ess" >>>>> is defined as "address of the intended recipient of the packet (pos= sibly >>>>> not the ultimate recipient, if a Routing header is present)" >>>>> >>>>> Stefano >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> It's possible that "penultimate" means something else, e.g. "ultim= ate". I don't know. I've been puzzling over this language for months and = it doesn't change. Maybe someone can finally post an explanation, but unt= il they do, I don't see how any WG Chair could assert rough consensus. An= obviously organised +1+1+1+1 campaign is not consensus. I don't know abo= ut you, but when I see a message whose only content is "+1" I just delete= it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Brian >>>>>> >>>>>>> Moreover, this 'proof' can technically wait until the IETF last c= all or even until the IESG ballot. I see little point in postponing the c= losing of the WGLC and advancing the document (of course, the document sh= epherd will need to carefully write the section about the rough WG consen= sus). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Finally, as far as I know, at the IETF we have no religion... els= e we would still be running NCP or IPv4 :-) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -=C3=A9ric >>>>>>> >>>>>>> =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: ipv6 on behalf of Warren Kumari >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ...%<...%<.... >>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>> It doesn't really matter how many people say +1 for moving= it forwards >>>>>>> -- if there are valid technical objections these have to b= e dealt with >>>>>>> - and I think that the relationship with RFC8200 falling i= nto this >>>>>>> category... >>>>>>> =20 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------= --- >>>>>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>>>>>> ipv6@ietf.org >>>>>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ip= v6 >>>>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------= --- >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------= -- >>>>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>>>>> ipv6@ietf.org >>>>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv= 6 >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------= -- >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >=20 >=20 From nobody Thu Feb 27 20:20:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 833963A0EFE; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 20:19:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.587 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.587 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, 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15.20.2772.018; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 04:39:40 +0000 From: "Ketan Talaulikar (ketant)" To: Mark Smith , "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" CC: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" , "spring@ietf.org" , "Voyer, Daniel" Thread-Topic: [spring] A permanent change to/violation of RFC8200 for a temporary situation. (Re: Is srv6 PSP a good idea) Thread-Index: AQHV7Vq1IA6+oAO+DUa6OjuhyhF0jagvgRyAgAAo84CAAFqVoA== Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 04:39:40 +0000 Message-ID: References: <5C583745-894A-4B9C-83B0-9AF8F85D3A3A@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=ketant@cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [72.163.220.6] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: d1afc4f4-1d21-402c-6ea2-08d7bc083964 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MW3PR11MB4731: x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-forefront-prvs: 0327618309 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(4636009)(366004)(376002)(396003)(39860400002)(346002)(136003)(199004)(189003)(7696005)(316002)(8936002)(5660300002)(966005)(33656002)(2906002)(66446008)(9686003)(55016002)(66574012)(64756008)(66556008)(66476007)(66946007)(76116006)(81156014)(8676002)(81166006)(478600001)(26005)(186003)(6506007)(4001150100001)(86362001)(6636002)(52536014)(4326008)(53546011)(110136005)(54906003)(71200400001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:MW3PR11MB4731; H:MW3PR11MB4570.namprd11.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: cisco.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: 4TOJ/Oyxw8VsGTy9epiXCFCG/HmJ5tTs1+EvieIrtuFwT7dZh8sOn8ueohWUeo8KGLeNQy9VVihiKfuFk3k+UkoJpBSi6afCr1MDixPImhEehrAdEyL0AxGCRp/4BBIdXvxxSJwes3WWCn/nnGXPQw== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: d1afc4f4-1d21-402c-6ea2-08d7bc083964 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 28 Feb 2020 04:39:40.2617 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: LXXlJdlOm7pj3bQAeqt+FssymblvAMDQVGh8LLqLt1tMU8q76sK3PPGe2h50sO7IZGtQeesqaxxP5V4jw/nraA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MW3PR11MB4731 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.14, xch-rcd-004.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-1.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] A permanent change to/violation of RFC8200 for a temporary situation. (Re: Is srv6 PSP a good idea) X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 04:39:52 -0000 SGkgTWFyaywNCg0KSnVzdCB0byBjbGFyaWZ5LCB0aGUgU1J2NiBjb250cm9sIHBsYW5lIGlzIG5v dCBiZWluZyBleHRlbmRlZCBiZXlvbmQgdGhlIFNSdjYgZGF0YSBwbGFuZS4gTGV0IG1lIGV4cGxh aW4uDQoNClRoZSBsZWdhY3kgZWdyZXNzIFBFIHdoaWNoIGRvZXMgbm90IGhhdmUgU1JIIHByb2Nl c3NpbmcgY2FwYWJpbGl0aWVzIGlzIHN0aWxsIGluc3RhbnRpYXRpbmcgdGhlIFNSdjYgRW5kLkRU L0RYIFNJRCBbcmVmIG5ldC1wZ20gZHJhZnQgc2VjIDQuNC04XSBpbiBpdHMgRklCLiBUaGF0IGlz IHN0aWxsIFNSdjYuIE5vdGUgaHR0cHM6Ly90b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sL2RyYWZ0LWlldGYt Nm1hbi1zZWdtZW50LXJvdXRpbmctaGVhZGVyLTI2I3NlY3Rpb24tNC4xLjEgDQoNCkdsYWQgdG8g c2VlIHRoZSBzeW1wYXRoeSBmb3IgUFNQIGRldmVsb3BpbmcgaW4geW91IGFzIHlvdSBzdGFydCBs b29raW5nIGNsb3NlciBhdCB0aGUgdXNlLWNhc2VzIPCfmIoNCg0KVGhhbmtzLA0KS2V0YW4NCg0K 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key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6Eu4WvWU1vyt for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 21:50:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x132.google.com (mail-il1-x132.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::132]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BAA483A107E for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 21:50:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x132.google.com with SMTP id p78so1716884ilb.10 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 21:50:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=JFSZr7ytoN2B9fdODVSvgqHJpc9uf/bAQvHMSjTfCZg=; b=TehwJOidLz93OQEVaFqylY+C+PBXUtyjSLpazzO9+JvqB1uVYHEI2in7MdHt/SCmf7 YsAyl2UX8WUqoB3Wa0atIhFiu9/l/IW9i1N8R6y5olJJGewOjkEODXp6qupSZKTIwNQT 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APXvYqyHqcQD/q8uzzftjId+v9yugO/dRSKVqG9ku3dr+mXTydjJaXHH/C8TLYRslqfakyxXTgtaYessF54zfg42qi4= X-Received: by 2002:a92:4e:: with SMTP id 75mr2753090ila.276.1582869004553; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 21:50:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <158248836511.1031.1350509839394231473@ietfa.amsl.com> <7481061F-75A5-4E4D-80AE-40E1F933E94A@cisco.com> <1BB7ED35-98EC-4A73-92A3-AD043D462CF7@steffann.nl> <97141983-EDF7-4C1E-A8F1-4ADCD345BC5A@cisco.com> <142C8D6F-5F27-48FA-8110-77ADBAB1A93F@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <142C8D6F-5F27-48FA-8110-77ADBAB1A93F@cisco.com> From: Gyan Mishra Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 00:49:52 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" Cc: "spring@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000be15a7059f9c6801" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 05:50:13 -0000 --000000000000be15a7059f9c6801 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Inline gyan> On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 4:00 PM Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) < pcamaril@cisco.com> wrote: > Gyan, > > > > Inline [PC1]. > > > > Thanks, > > Pablo. > > > > *From: *Gyan Mishra > *Date: *Thursday, 27 February 2020 at 08:14 > *To: *"Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" > *Cc: *SPRING WG > *Subject: *Re: [spring] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt > > > > > > In-line response > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 10:16 AM Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) < > pcamaril@cisco.com> wrote: > > Gyan, > > > > As I (and other WG members) have explained in the past, PSP is not trying > to provide any feature parity with MPLS. > > > > It enables new use-cases that have been provided by other members in the > list. [1], [2] and [5]. > > From operational perspective it is not complex as explained in [3]. > > There is substantial benefit. Four operators have deployed PSP, which > proves the benefit. > > And additionally operators have expressed their value in [4] and [5]. > > > > [1].- > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/wTLJQkzC6xwSNPbhB84VH0mLXx0 > > > > (1) reduce the load of final destination. This benefit can be notable for= the following sub reasons. > > I know you say you are not trying to create any feature parity with MPLS = however by using PSP is similar to PHP in that you are trying to offload pr= ocessing on the end X node in which could be any node in the path and not j= ust the PHP node. > > With SRv6 the loophole created here is that at each hop along the traffic= engineered path, the SID in the SL is popped > > > > PC1: This is incorrect. The SID in position SL is never popped. You copy > the active segment in to the IPv6 Destination Address field, but you don= =E2=80=99t > remove it from the SRH. I=E2=80=99m sure that you already know this, but = let=E2=80=99s make > sure that others do not get confused. > > gyan> Understood by pop I meant copy or process the active SID to DA > > and copied to the DA hop by hop - so each hop being a single hop End X SID instantiation, > > PC1: A hop as per RFC8200 happens every time that a router forwards the > packet. SRv6 does not change this. > > The next segment is copied once that you arrive to the node identified in > the IPv6 Destination Address field of the packet. > > gyan> The point I was trying to make is that SRv6 use the IPv6 data pla= ne differently then vanilla IPv6 in that the . destination copies from = SRH to DA is a hop by hop traffic steered source routed path then natively = routed. > > the PSP function of SRH removal can now occur at any node along the path= and not just the MPLS style one hop prior to ultimate hop egress PE node. > > PC1: This is incorrect. The SRH removal operation occurs when you receive > a packet with SL=3D1; and subsequently you copy the last segment into the > IPv6 Destination Address field and decrement Segments Left to zero > gyan> Good. That=E2=80=99s what I thought but wanted to make sure usage = of PSP is only when packet with SL=3D1 Is received. In some of the responses in this some of the threads it sounded like PSP was being used for other cases other then when SL=3D1 is received. So in an SRv6 domain similar to MPLS domain the PHP node one hop before the egress PE is the same as in SRv6 domain when SL=3D1 is the egres= s P node before the last hop in the SRv6 domain being the egress PE UHP node or USP node in an SRv6 domain. > > > So PSP is being leveraged to be used at any end X and not just the final = destination. > > PC1: It is not executed at any router. PSP is only triggered when you are > at the node identified in the Destination Address field of the IPv6 heade= r > and the received Segments Left value is equal to 1. > > gyan> ok good > > This makes the situation worse for RFC 8200 violations. > > PC1: This is explicitly allowed in RFC8200. It is not executed at =E2=80= =9Cany > router=E2=80=9D as you said before. > > > > What would be the use case where you would need to pop the SRH early at a= n End X node that is not the final destination. The SL has to be 0 to pop = the SRH. Please correct me then if the PSP function can only occur at the = final destination one hop prior PHP node. > > gyan>ok good > PC1: The PSP function can only occur on the segment endpoint node that > decrement the Segments Left value from 1 to 0 > gyan> ok good > (1.1) final destination tends to have heavy load. It need to handle all t= he EHs and do the delivery/demultiplex the packet to the right overlay serv= ice. > > Does the egress PE really have a heavy load with modern hardware. > > How is the PSP function with modern hardware any more difficult popping t= he SRH on the final destination node then with MPLS explicit null UHP. > > Other then the 6in6 topmost SRv6 encapsulation that is popped at the fina= l destination which is different then MPLS 4 byte shim topmost, with the b= ottom stack labels being identical in both scenarios, is there really extra= load on the final destination egress PE that is being saved?? > > PC1: See below on email 5. > > > > (1.2) example 1, the final destination may need to handle the DOH after t= he RH. > > DOH would be set in the encapsulated packet in the customer payload that = is tunneled 6in6 over the provider network. Doubtful that DOH would be set = in the SP SRv6 closed domain > > PC1: Are you suggesting that we modify the customer packet to insert a Do= H > on the fly? Im sorry. This is not what we want to do. When we receive a > customer packet into the SRv6 closed domain we encapsulate the customer > packet and include all the necessary headers. The customer packet integri= ty > is preserved end to end. The customer packet is never modified or process= ed. > > gyan> I am saying that since the DOH is in the customer payload encapsul= ated packet this would not be a reason for offloading DOH processing using = PSP > > (1.3) example 2, the final destination may need to do the assembly of fra= gmented packets. > > In general almost across the board all providers set their MTU to 9216 ju= mbo so as to not have outer 6in6 SRv6 header fragmentation issues > > (1.4) example 3, the final destination may need to do AH/ESP after the Fr= agmentation Header. > > Just like 1.2 AH/ESP would be part of the customer payload encapsulated > > PC1: Again, same as before. The customer packet integrity is always > preserved. The SP processing happens only on the SP imposed IP header. If > the SP wishes to use AH/ESP, then the AH/ESP header would be added to the > outer IPv6 header. > > gyan> since the AH/ESP header would be in the customer payload encapsulat= ed and not SP header then also just as with doh would not be a use case rea= son for PSP > > > > (1.5) example 4, the final destination may need to deliver the packet to = the right overlay service. > > In the SP network the packet is still forwarded hop by hop along the SRH = traffic engineered path to the prefix SID fec destination, which is always = the final destination in the SL, when SL is 0 the USP USD deencapsulation o= ccurs. So in my mind the overlay service would not ever be on an end DT tr= ansit node P router and would always sit on an egress PE router. > > Am I missing something? > > PC1: End.DT SIDs are typically instantiated in the PE routers. > > > > (2) support the incremental deployment when final destination(s) do not p= rocess/recognize SRH. This benefit can be notable for the following sub rea= sons. > > This is during interim migration, however I believe the best practice for= SRv6 brown field is to have the PEs SRv6 capable and the Ps IPv6 capable f= or End DT x transit node forwarding only - which P routers should adhere st= rictly to RFC 8200 and should never have to perform or technically even hav= e to perform the PSP function. > > In most SP networks the PEs are protocol and feature rich and have the la= test code and hardware where the P routers =E2=80=9CBGP free=E2=80=9D =E2= =80=9Cpim free=E2=80=9D core - only perform label swapping in MPLS world an= d SR world only label stacking. > > PC1: The point exactly raised by operators is to have legacy hardware PEs= . > This is exactly the opposite of what you are saying. > > Legacy PE is SRv6 capable both from software and hardware perspective, bu= t > the ASIC has limited SRH processing capabilities. > > Is the ASIC hardware processing limitations due to MSD SID depth? > > PC1: By the way, all the nodes in the SRv6 domain MUST be RFC8200 > compliant. Please read the SRH draft particularly section 3 for the > definition of each type of node, together with section 4.1-4.3 for the > processing at each node. > > The =E2=80=9CSource SR Node=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CSR Segment Endpoint Nod= e=E2=80=9D must support RFC8200 > AND also draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header and > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming > > The =E2=80=9CTransit Node=E2=80=9D only supports RFC8200. > > gyan> main crux of the discussion has been that the IPv6 packet is immut= able which violates RFC8200 with PSP SRH removal. > > (2.1) A core router may (fan-out) connected with a big number of low-end = routers that do not support SRH but support tunnel-end/service-demultiplex = function of SRv6. > > Please elaborate on this scenario > > [2].- > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/V0ZpjVLSVZxHaBwecXFxqJjlg_c > > > > For example in SRv6-based L3VPN service scenario, The ingress PE within = SRv6-enabled domain can utilize SR-TE policy to enable TE-path function whe= n encapsulating and transiting L3VPN traffic, The Ingress PE push on custom= er packets with SID list representing SR-TE policy plus END.DT4 as last SRv= 6 SID in SRH; So I think, each flavor of PSP/USP/USD can be designed to p= erform in related SRv6 endpoint. Imaging the PSP, the penultimate Endpoint = can perform PSP, e.g. copy the last SID (END.DT4) of SRH to destination fie= ld of IPv6 header and POP the SRH, then forwarding it toward egress PE iden= tified by DA. > > This comment is what lead me to believe my comment in (1) then the PSP is > being leveraged as a loophole to be able to perform the PSP function at a= ny > node and pop the SRH. > > PC1: I=E2=80=99ve already replied above explaining why this understand is > incorrect. > > > > In thinking about this it does not make sense at all. > > > > My thoughts are that the SRv6 source node ingress PE adds the SRH, and th= e > final destination node egress PE pops the SRH. I don=E2=80=99t understan= d why any > P node along the path would ever pop the SRH if you have not made it yet = to > the final destination. > > Also in the SRv6 programming PSP psuedocode it states the SL=3D0 has to b= e > satisfied =E2=80=94 so if you are on any P router and not at the final de= stination > prefix SID FEC, then you are doing the standard IPv6 data plane forwardi= ng > and end dt x node and copying hop by hop the SID to the DA. Since the P > routers are doing standard IPv6 forwarding they must comply with RFC8200. > > PC1: I don=E2=80=99t follow your point here. Both P and PEs have to compl= y with > RFC8200. The PEs as well as the P nodes where you want to have SRv6 > processing need to support in addition the SRv6 drafts. > > > > Am I missing something? > > [3].- > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ssobwemrPz0uEZjvRCZP1e4l_l0 > > > > > Removing bytes (aor adding bytes) from arbitrary positions in the middl= e of a packet is generally any extremely painful operation. Why would we w= ant a standard that mandated such an operation? Savings a few bytes on SR = hop (sure, several IP router hops) seems a small benefit for such a cost. > > > > > > > I agree that not much savings adding the PSP function just to POP the SRH= at an end x node > > PC1: There=E2=80=99s nothing arbitrary in the bytes we remove and there i= s no cost > in such operation. > > > > That sounds weird comment for me. We have deployed that type of function = with no compromise in terms of of both performance and operation within rea= sonable and affordable cost. > > > > [4].- > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/KXCBHT8Tpy17S5BsJXLBS35yZbk > > > > As of the end of 2019, the SRv6 network consists of: > > - 1000 Cisco NCS 5500 routers > > - 1800 Iliad's Nodeboxes > > - The network services 4.5 million mobile subscribers (as of Q3 2019) > > - The network is carrying 300 Gbps of commercial traffic at peak hours > > - It is expected to grow to more than 4000 Nodeboxes in 2020. > > > > The following SRv6 features have been deployed: > > - A Segment Routing Header based data plane > > - End (PSP), End.X (PSP), End.DT4, T.Encaps.Red, T.Insert.Red functions > > - BGP VPN SRv6 extensions > > - ISIS SRv6 extensions > > - SRH-based Topology Independent (TI-LFA) Fast Reroute mechanisms > > - Support for ping and traceroute > > Is this customer doing PSP in end x meaning any transit P router end dt x > node? > > PC1: The PSP function is an optional flavor of the > End, End.X or End.T behaviors. PSP does not apply to > the End.DT or End.DX behavior. > gyan> This is what I was thinking but was not sure on the use case of PSP optional flavor. End.X and End.T L3 xconnect or V6 table lookup is what I was talking about in the 1st few questions. So the End.X and End.T is really any P node along the path to the final destination. So you are saying that you can now do the PSP option flavor to any P node along the path?? > > > If so in those cases where the SRH is popped on end x node, was their a > service overlay or SFC at the P node which was the reason to pop the SRH > early on a transit P node. > > [5].- > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ErcErN39RIlzkL5SKNVAeEWpnAI > > > > PSP allows us to bring SRv6 to legacy PE devices that are not capable of = processing the SRH in the dataplane, but are capable of supporting SRv6 in = the control plane. > > See this example: > > I am streaming traffic from a server to a customer; > > The ingress PE (near the server) encapsulates the packet and adds an SRH = with a low-latency list of segments; > > The penultimate node in the SRH executes PSP; > > The egress PE (near the customer) decapsulates the IPv6 header and forwar= ds the inner packet to the customer. > > We can include SLA unidirectionally from the server to the customer even= though that the egress PE has a legacy ASIC. Legacy equipment are a realit= y and are not easy to replace, hence interoperability with brownfield is ke= y for any innovative approach. > > > > This is during migration however I believe the best practice for SRv6 bro= wn field is to have the PEs SRv6 capable and the Ps IPv6 capable for End DT= x transit node forwarding only > > PC1: Again, you are modifying the customer use-case. I don=E2=80=99t see = why you > say that this is limited to migration time only. It is not. It is a > brownfield deployment. > > The PEs will be SRv6 capable; but you cannot assume that the customer wil= l > be upgrading all of their hardware. So, the PE can process the SRv6 contr= ol > plane and dataplane but has limited SRH processing capabilities. > gyan> so you are saying due to SRH processing limitations on legacy hardware that we would in brown field and not migration but semi permanent long term use the PSP function on the P - and upgrade the egress P hardware to support SRH processing - to avoid having to upgrade a fan out of PE endpoints. Makes sense. May I ask which vendor and legacy platform has this SRH processing limitation? > > > - which P routers should adhere strictly to RFC 8200 and should never ha= ve to perform or technically even have to perform the PSP function. > > PC1: In any SRv6 deployment both the SR routers (those who support the > SRH/NET-PGM); as well as the NON-SR routers both have to be compliant wit= h > RFC8200. > > > > In most SP networks the PEs are protocol and feature rich and have the la= test code and hardware where the P routers =E2=80=9CBGP free=E2=80=9D =E2= =80=9Cpim free=E2=80=9D only perform label swapping in MPLS world and SR wo= rld only label stacking. > > PC1: In most SP the number of PE devices is by far larger than the number= of P devices. Are you suggesting that they should replace all of their acc= ess just because you disagree with their PSP use-case? > > gyan> I get it now. Out of all the reasons for PSP I can see this one as a valid reason to be able to avoid upgrading of many PE endpoints to support SRH processing. > > > I don't see the point of starting a new thread from zero that discusses > the same thing. > > > > Cheers, > > Pablo. > > > > *From: *Gyan Mishra > *Date: *Tuesday, 25 February 2020 at 00:35 > *To: *"Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" > *Cc: *Ron Bonica , SPRING WG > *Subject: *Re: [spring] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt > > > > > > PSP has historical context from PHP ( Penultimate Hop POP) in the MPLS > world. > > > > 20+ years ago when MPLS we originally developed the concept of PHP > implicit null reserved label value 0 was done to offload the burden of th= e > egress PE FEC destination to pop the entire label stack before forwarding > the native IP packet to the CE. > > > > Hardware these days for the last 15 years or so are so advanced that the > idea that you are saving processing on the egress PE has not existed for = a > long time. > > > > Even back then in both SP and enterprise space there were issues that > arise related to PHB QOS egress queuing, that occurs on the PHP node tha= t > had the MPLS shim popped, it cannot schedule on the topmost label via exp > provider markings done on the ingress PE upon label imposition. > > > > A workaround to this issue was to set explicit null label value 0 and use > pipe or uniform mode to tunnel the customer payload to the egress PE FEC > destination called UHP ultimate hop node with topmost label intact. > > > > The concept of implicit null PHP concept did not bode well in the MPLS > world so I don=E2=80=99t see why that feature parity would be added to a = next gen > protocol that would be the future MPLS replacement. > > > > I agree with taking some of the good features and knobs from MPLS, but wh= y > take the ones like implicit null with is really an archaic feature. > > > > My 2 cents > > > > Gyan > > > > On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 5:38 PM Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) 40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > Ron, > > > > This is the 5th time that we have this discussion in the past five months= . > > > > I consider those three questions as closed based on the previous > discussion. > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/yRkDJlXd71k0VUqagM3D77vYcFI/ > > > > Cheers, > > Pablo. > > > > *From: *Ron Bonica > *Date: *Monday, 24 February 2020 at 16:27 > *To: *Andrew Alston , Mark Smith < > markzzzsmith@gmail.com>, Sander Steffann > *Cc: *SPRING WG , "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" < > pcamaril@cisco.com> > *Subject: *RE: [spring] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt > > > > Folks, > > > > We may need to ask the following questions: > > > > 1) Does PSP violate letter of RFC 8200? > > 2) Does PSP violate the spirit of RFC 8200? > > 3) Is PSP a good idea? > > > > The 6man WG, and not SPRING, should answer the first two questions. So I > will avoid them an explore the third. > > > > At first glance, PSP adds no value. Once Segments Left has been > decremented to 0, the Routing header becomes a NOOP. So why bother to > remove it? I see the following arguments: > > > > 1) To save bandwidth between the penultimate and ultimate segment > endpoints. > > 2) To unburden the ultimate segment endpoint from the task of > processing the SRH > > 3) To unburden the ultimate segment endpoint from the task of > removing the SRH > > > > The first argument is weak. Routing headers should not be so large that > the bandwidth they consume is an issue. > > > > The second argument is also weak. Once the ultimate segment endpoint has > examined the Segments Left field, it can ignore the SRH. The ultimate > segment endpoint must be SRv6-aware, because it must process the SID in t= he > IPv6 destination address field. Given that the ultimate segment endpoint = is > SRv6 aware, it should be able to process the SRH on the fast path. > > > > The third argument is even weaker. The ultimate segment endpoint: > > - Has to remove the IPv6 tunnel header, anyway > > - Being closer to the edge, may be less heavily loaded than the > penultimate segment endpoint. > > > > Can anyone articulate a better justification for PSP? If not, why test th= e > limits of RFC 8200 over it? > > > > > Ron > > > > > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > *From:* spring *On Behalf Of *Andrew Alston > *Sent:* Monday, February 24, 2020 5:06 AM > *To:* Mark Smith ; Sander Steffann < > sander@steffann.nl> > *Cc:* SPRING WG ; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) 40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> > *Subject:* Re: [spring] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt > > > > I agree with the sentiments expressed below > > > > Andrew > > > > > > *From:* spring *On Behalf Of *Mark Smith > *Sent:* Monday, 24 February 2020 00:50 > *To:* Sander Steffann > *Cc:* SPRING WG ; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) < > pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> > *Subject:* Re: [spring] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt > > > > > > On Mon, 24 Feb 2020, 07:47 Sander Steffann, wrote: > > Hi, > > > We have published a new update to > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming. This revision simplifies the > counters as per [1], clarifies the upper layer header processing as per [= 2] > and removes the reference to the OAM draft [3]. > > I still oppose the segment popping flavours in section 4.16 without > updating RFC8200. > > > > I would expect that defying Internet Standard 86/RFC8200 means this ID > needs to have Experimental rather than Standards Track status. > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > Sander > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > -- > > Gyan Mishra > > Network Engineering & Technology > > Verizon > > Silver Spring, MD 20904 > > Phone: 301 502-1347 > > Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com > > > > > > -- > > Gyan Mishra > > Network Engineering & Technology > > Verizon > > Silver Spring, MD 20904 > > Phone: 301 502-1347 > > Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com > > > > > --=20 Gyan Mishra Network Engineering & Technology Verizon Silver Spring, MD 20904 Phone: 301 502-1347 Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com --000000000000be15a7059f9c6801 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Inline gyan>

On Thu, Feb 27, 2020= at 4:00 PM Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril@cisco.com> wrote:

Gyan,

=C2=A0

Inline [PC1].

=C2=A0

Thanks,

Pablo.

=C2=A0

From: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.c= om>
Date: Thursday, 27 February 2020 at 08:14
To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming-10.txt

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

In-line response=C2=A0<= u>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at= 10:16 AM Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril@cisco.com> wrote:

Gyan,

=C2=A0

As I (and other WG members) have explained in the past= , PSP is not trying to provide any feature parity with MPLS.

=C2=A0

It enables new use-cases that have been provided by other members in the li= st. [1], [2] and [5].

>From operational perspective it is not complex as explained in [3].

There is substantial benefit. Four operators have deployed PSP, which prove= s the benefit.

And additionally operators have expressed their= value in [4] and [5].

=C2=A0

[1].- https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/wTLJQkzC6xwSNPbhB84VH0mLXx0

=C2=A0 

(1) reduce the load of final desti=
nation. This benefit can be notable for the following sub reasons.
I know you say you are not trying =
to create any feature parity with MPLS however by using PSP is similar to P=
HP in that you are trying to offload processing on the end X node in which =
could be any node in the path and not just the PHP node. =C2=A0
With SRv6 the loophole created her=
e is that at each hop along the traffic engineered path, the SID in the SL =
is popped <=
u>
=C2=A0

PC1: This is incorrect. = The SID in position SL is never popped. You copy the active segment in to t= he IPv6 Destination Address field, but you don=E2=80=99t remove it from the= SRH. I=E2=80=99m sure that you already know this, but let=E2=80=99s make sure that others do not get confused. <= /u>

=C2=A0gyan> Understood by pop I meant copy or process the a=
ctive SID to DA

and copied to the DA hop by hop - so each hop being =
a single hop End X SID instantiation,

PC1: A hop as per RFC820= 0 happens every time that a router forwards the packet. SRv6 does not chang= e this.

The next segment is copi= ed once that you arrive to the node identified in the IPv6 Destination Addr= ess field of the packet.

=C2=A0gyan> The point I was trying to make is that  SRv6 us=
e the IPv6 data plane differently then vanilla IPv6 in that the  .    desti=
nation copies from SRH to DA is a hop by hop traffic steered source routed =
path then natively routed.
 the PSP function of SRH removal can now occur at an=
y node along the path and not just the MPLS style one hop prior to ultimate=
 hop egress PE node.=C2=A0

PC1: This is incorrect. = The SRH removal operation occurs when you receive a packet with SL=3D1; and= subsequently you copy the last segment into the IPv6 Destination Address f= ield and decrement Segments Left to zero=C2=A0

=

PC1: The PSP function ca= n only occur on the segment endpoint node that decrement the Segments Left = value from 1 to 0

(1.1) final destination tends to h=
ave heavy load. It need to handle all the EHs and do the delivery/demultipl=
ex the packet to the right overlay service.
Does the egress PE really have a h=
eavy load with modern hardware.
How is the PSP function with moder=
n hardware any more difficult popping the SRH on the final destination node=
 then with MPLS explicit null UHP.
Other then the 6in6 topmost SRv6 e=
ncapsulation that is popped at the final destination which is different the=
n MPLS 4 byte shim topmost,=C2=A0 with the bottom stack labels being identi=
cal in both scenarios, is there really extra load on the final destination =
egress PE that is being saved??

PC1: See below on email = 5.

=C2=A0
(1.2) example 1, the final destina=
tion may need to handle the DOH after the RH.
DOH would be set in the encapsulat=
ed packet in the customer payload that is tunneled 6in6 over the provider n=
etwork. Doubtful that DOH would be set in the SP SRv6 closed domain =

PC1: Are you suggesting = that we modify the customer packet to insert a DoH on the fly? Im sorry. Th= is is not what we want to do. When we receive a customer packet into the SR= v6 closed domain we encapsulate the customer packet and include all the necessary headers. The customer packet= integrity is preserved end to end. The customer packet is never modified o= r processed.

=C2=A0gyan> I am saying that since the DOH is in the custom=
er payload encapsulated packet this would not be a reason for offloading DO=
H processing using PSP
(1.3) example 2, the final destina=
tion may need to do the assembly of fragmented packets.
In general almost across the board=
 all providers set their MTU to 9216 jumbo so as to not have outer 6in6 SRv=
6 header fragmentation issues 
(1.4) example 3, the final destina=
tion may need to do AH/ESP after the Fragmentation Header.
Just like 1.2 AH/ESP would be part=
 of the customer payload encapsulated

PC1: Again, same as befo= re. The customer packet integrity is always preserved. The SP processing ha= ppens only on the SP imposed IP header. If the SP wishes to use AH/ESP, the= n the AH/ESP header would be added to the outer IPv6 header. 

gyan> since the AH/ESP header would be in the customer payl=
oad encapsulated and not SP header then also just as with doh would not be =
a use case reason for PSP
=
=C2=A0
(1.5) example 4, the final destina=
tion may need to deliver the packet to the right overlay service.=

In the SP network the packet is st=
ill forwarded hop by hop along the SRH traffic engineered path to the prefi=
x SID fec destination, which is always the final destination in the SL, whe=
n SL is 0 the USP USD deencapsulation occurs.=C2=A0 So in my mind the overl=
ay service would not ever be on an end DT transit node P router and would a=
lways sit on an egress PE router. 
Am I missing something?<=
/u>

PC1: End.DT SIDs are typ= ically instantiated in the PE routers. 

=C2=A0
(2) support the incremental deploy=
ment when final destination(s) do not process/recognize SRH. This benefit c=
an be notable for the following sub reasons.
This is during interim migration, =
however I believe the best practice for SRv6 brown field is to have the PEs=
 SRv6 capable and the Ps IPv6 capable for End DT x transit node forwarding =
only - which P routers should adhere strictly to RFC 8200 and should never =
have to perform or technically even have to perform the PSP function.
In most SP networks the PEs are pr=
otocol and feature rich and have the latest code and=C2=A0hardware where th=
e P routers =E2=80=9CBGP free=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9Cpim free=E2=80=9D core - on=
ly perform label swapping in MPLS world and SR world only label stacking.

PC1: The point exactly r= aised by operators is to have legacy hardware PEs. This is exactly the oppo= site of what you are saying.

Legacy PE is SRv6 capabl= e both from software and hardware perspective, but the ASIC has limited SRH= processing capabilities.

=C2=A0Is the ASIC hardwa= re processing limitations due to MSD SID depth?

PC1: By the way, all the= nodes in the SRv6 domain MUST be RFC8200 compliant. Please read the SRH dr= aft particularly section 3 for the definition of each type of node, togethe= r with section 4.1-4.3 for the processing at each node.

The =E2=80=9CSource SR N= ode=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CSR Segment Endpoint Node=E2=80=9D must support RF= C8200 AND also draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header and draft-ietf-spring= -srv6-network-programming

The =E2=80=9CTransit Nod= e=E2=80=9D only supports RFC8200.

=C2=A0gyan> main crux of the discussion has been that the I=
Pv6 packet is immutable which violates RFC8200 with PSP SRH removal.=

(2.1) A core router may (fan-out) =
connected with a big number of low-end routers that do not support SRH but =
support tunnel-end/service-demultiplex function of SRv6.
Please elaborate on this scenario =

=C2=A0 

For example in SRv6-based L3VPN se=
rvice scenario,=C2=A0 The ingress PE within SRv6-enabled domain can utilize=
 SR-TE policy to enable TE-path function when encapsulating and transiting =
L3VPN traffic, The Ingress PE push on customer packets with SID list repres=
enting SR-TE policy plus END.DT4 as last SRv6 SID in SRH;=C2=A0 So I think,=
=C2=A0 each flavor of PSP/USP/USD can be designed to perform in related SRv=
6 endpoint. Imaging the PSP, the penultimate Endpoint can perform PSP, e.g.=
 copy the last SID (END.DT4) of SRH to destination field of IPv6 header and=
 POP the SRH, then forwarding it toward egress PE identified by DA.<=
u>

This comment is what le= ad me to believe my comment in (1) then the PSP is being leveraged as a loo= phole to be able to perform the PSP function at any node and pop the SRH.

PC1: I=E2=80=99ve alread= y replied above explaining why this understand is incorrect.<= /span>

=C2=A0

In thinking about this = it does not make sense at all.

=C2=A0

My thoughts are that th= e SRv6 source node ingress PE adds the SRH, and the final destination node = egress PE pops the SRH.=C2=A0 I don=E2=80=99t understand why any P node alo= ng the path would ever pop the SRH if you have not made it yet to the final destination. =C2=A0

Also in the SRv6 progra= mming PSP psuedocode it states the SL=3D0 has to be satisfied =E2=80=94 so = if you are on any P router and not at the final destination prefix SID FEC,= =C2=A0then you are doing the standard IPv6 data plane forwarding and end dt x node and copying hop by hop the SID to the DA.=C2= =A0 Since the P routers are doing standard IPv6 forwarding they must comply= with RFC8200.

PC1: I don=E2=80=99t fol= low your point here. Both P and PEs have to comply with RFC8200. The PEs as= well as the P nodes where you want to have SRv6 processing need to support= in addition the SRv6 drafts.

=C2=A0

Am I missing something?=

=C2=A0 

> Removing bytes (aor adding by=
tes) from arbitrary positions in the middle of a packet is generally any ex=
tremely painful operation.=C2=A0 Why would we want a standard that mandated=
 such an operation?=C2=A0 Savings a few bytes on SR hop (sure, several IP r=
outer hops) seems a small benefit for such a cost.

>=C2=A0


=C2=A0


I agree that not much savings adding the PSP functio=
n just to POP the SRH at an end x node 


PC1: There=E2=80=99s not=
hing arbitrary in the bytes we remove and there is no cost in such operatio=
n.


=C2=A0


That sounds weird comment for me. We have deployed t=
hat type of function with no compromise in terms of of both performance and=
 operation within reasonable and affordable cost.

=C2=A0 

=C2=A0
As of the end of 2019, the SRv6 ne=
twork consists of:
- 1000 Cisco NCS 5500 routers

- 1800 Iliad's Nodeboxes

- The network services 4.5 million mobile subscriber=
s (as of Q3 2019)


- The network is carrying 300 Gbps of commercial tra=
ffic at peak hours


- It is expected to grow to more than 4000 Nodeboxes=
 in 2020.


=C2=A0


The following SRv6 features have been deployed:


- A Segment Routing Header based data plane


- End (PSP), End.X (PSP), End.DT4, T.Encaps.Red, T.I=
nsert.Red functions


- BGP VPN SRv6 extensions


- ISIS SRv6 extensions


- SRH-based Topology Independent (TI-LFA) Fast Rerou=
te mechanisms


- Support for ping and traceroute

Is this customer doing = PSP in end x meaning any transit P router end dt x node?

PC1: The PSP function is= an optional flavor of the End,=C2=A0End.X=C2=A0or=C2=A0End.T=C2=A0behavior= s. PSP does not apply to the=C2=A0End.DT=C2=A0or=C2=A0End.DX=C2=A0behavior.=


If so in those cases wh= ere the SRH is popped on end x node, was their a service overlay or SFC at = the P node which was the reason to pop the SRH early on a transit P node.

=C2=A0 

PSP allows us to bring SRv6 to leg=
acy PE devices that are not capable of processing the SRH in the dataplane,=
 but are capable of supporting SRv6 in the control plane.
 
See this example:
I am streaming traffic from a server to a customer;<=
u>
The ingress PE (near the server) encapsulates the pa=
cket and adds an SRH with a low-latency list of segments;
The penultimate node in the SRH executes PSP;=

The egress PE (near the customer) decapsulates the I=
Pv6 header and forwards the inner packet to the customer.
 
We can include SLA unidirectionally from the server =
to the customer even though that the egress PE has a legacy ASIC. Legacy eq=
uipment are a reality and are not easy to replace, hence interoperability w=
ith brownfield is key for any innovative approach.

=C2=A0


This is during migration however I believe the bes=
t practice for SRv6 brown field is to have the PEs SRv6 capable and the Ps =
IPv6 capable for End DT x transit node forwarding only


PC1: Again, you are modi=
fying the customer use-case. I don=E2=80=99t see why you say that this is l=
imited to migration time only. It is not. It is a brownfield deployment.=



The PEs will be SRv6 cap=
able; but you cannot assume that the customer will be upgrading all of thei=
r hardware. So, the PE can process the SRv6 control plane and dataplane but=
 has limited SRH processing capabilities.


May I as= k which vendor and legacy platform has this SRH processing limitation?
=

<= /u>

=C2=A0
 - which P routers should adhere strictly to RFC 8200 and should nev=
er have to perform or technically even have to perform the PSP function.=

PC1: In any SRv6 deploym= ent both the SR routers (those who support the SRH/NET-PGM); as well as the= NON-SR routers both have to be compliant with RFC8200.

=C2=A0
In most SP networks the PEs are protocol and featu=
re rich and have the latest code and=C2=A0hardware where the P routers =E2=
=80=9CBGP free=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9Cpim free=E2=80=9D only perform label swapp=
ing in MPLS world and SR world only label stacking.

PC1: In most SP the number of PE devices is by far larger=
 than the number of P devices. Are you suggesting that they should replace =
all of their access just because you dis=
agree with their PSP use-case?
=

=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 gyan> I get it now.=C2=A0 Out of all the reasons for PSP I can see t= his one as a valid reason to be able to avoid upgrading of many PE endpoint= s to support SRH processing. =C2=A0

=C2=A0

I don't see the point of s= tarting a new thread from zero that discusses the same thing.

=C2=A0

Cheers,

Pablo.

=C2=A0

From: Gyan Mishra <= hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, 25 February 2020 at 00:35
To: "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" <= pcamaril@cisco.com&= gt;
Cc: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net<= /a>>, SPRING WG <= spring@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming-10.txt

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

PSP has historical context from PHP ( Penultimate Hop POP) in the MPLS worl= d. =C2=A0

=C2=A0

20+ years ago when MPLS we originally developed the concept of PHP implicit= null reserved label value 0 was done to offload the burden of the egress P= E FEC destination to pop the entire label stack before forwarding the nativ= e IP packet to the CE.

=C2=A0

Hardware these days for the last 15 years or so are so advanced that the id= ea that you are saving processing on the egress PE has not existed for a lo= ng time. =C2=A0

=C2=A0

Even =C2=A0back then in both SP and enterprise space there were issues that= arise related to PHB QOS egress queuing, =C2=A0that occurs on the PHP node= that had the MPLS shim popped, it cannot schedule on the topmost label via= exp provider markings done on the ingress PE upon label imposition. =C2=A0

=C2=A0

A workaround to this issue was to set explicit null label value 0 and use p= ipe or uniform mode to tunnel the customer payload to the egress PE FEC des= tination called UHP ultimate hop node with topmost label intact. =C2=A0

=C2=A0

The concept of implicit null PHP concept did not bode well in the MPLS worl= d so I don=E2=80=99t see why that feature parity would be added to a next g= en protocol that would be the future MPLS replacement.

=C2=A0

I agree with taking some of the good features and knobs from MPLS, but why = take the ones like implicit null with is really an archaic feature.

=C2=A0

My 2 cents

=C2=A0

Gyan

=C2=A0

On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 5:38 PM Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril=3D<= a href=3D"mailto:40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40cisco.com@= dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Ron,

=C2=A0

This is the 5th=C2=A0= time that we have this discussion in the past five months.

=C2=A0

I consider those three questions= as closed based on the previous discussion.

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg= /spring/yRkDJlXd71k0VUqagM3D77vYcFI/

=C2=A0

Cheers,

Pablo.

=C2=A0

From: Ron Bonica <rbonica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
Date: Monday, 24 February 2020 at 16:27
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alsto= n@liquidtelecom.com= >, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com= >, Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>, "Pablo Camarillo (pcama= ril)" <pcamaril@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming-10.txt

=C2=A0

Folks,

=C2=A0

We may need to ask the following questions:

=C2=A0

1)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Does PSP violate letter of RFC 8200?

2)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Does PSP violate the spirit of RFC 8200?

3)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Is PSP a good idea?

=C2=A0

The 6man WG, and not SPRING, should answer the first two questions. So I wi= ll avoid them an explore the third.

=C2=A0

At first glance, PSP adds no value. Once Segments Left has been decremented= to 0, the Routing header becomes a NOOP. So why bother to remove it? I see= the following arguments:

=C2=A0

1)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 To save bandwidth between the penultimate and ultimate segment endpoints.

2)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 To unburden the ultimate segment endpoint from the task of processing the S= RH

3)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 To unburden the ultimate segment endpoint from the task of removing the SRH=

=C2=A0

The first argument is weak. Routing headers should not be so large that the= bandwidth they consume is an issue.

=C2=A0

The second argument is also weak. Once the ultimate segment endpoint has ex= amined the Segments Left field, it can ignore the SRH. The ultimate segment= endpoint must be SRv6-aware, because it must process the SID in the IPv6 d= estination address field. Given that the ultimate segment endpoint is SRv6 aware, it should be able to pro= cess the SRH on the fast path.

=C2=A0

The third argument is even weaker. The ultimate segment endpoint:

-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Has to remove the IPv6 tunnel header, anyway

-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Being closer to the edge, may be less heavily loaded than the penultimate s= egment endpoint.

=C2=A0

Can anyone articulate a better justification for PSP? If not, why test the = limits of RFC 8200 over it?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Ron

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Juniper Business Use Only

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Andrew Alston
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2020 5:06 AM
To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>; Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril=3D40cisco.com@dmar= c.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming-10.txt

=C2=A0

I agree with the sentiments expressed below

=C2=A0

Andrew

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Mark Smith
Sent: Monday, 24 February 2020 00:50
To: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
Cc: SPRING WG <spring@ietf.org>; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril=3D40cis= co.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming-10.txt

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Mon, 24 Feb 2020, 07:47 Sander Steffann, <sander@steffann.nl> wrote:

Hi,

> We have published a new update to draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-progr= amming. This revision simplifies the counters as per [1], clarifies the upp= er layer header processing as per [2] and removes the reference to the OAM = draft [3].

I still oppose the segment popping flavours in section 4.16 without updatin= g RFC8200.

=C2=A0

I would expect that defying Internet Standard 86/RFC8200 means this ID need= s to have Experimental rather than Standards Track status.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0


Cheers,
Sander

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spr= ing

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

--

Gyan=C2=A0 Mishra

Network Engineering & Technology=C2=A0

Verizon=C2=A0

Silver Spring, MD 20904

Phone: 301 502-1347

Email: gyan.s.mishra@ve= rizon.com

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

--

Gyan=C2=A0 Mishra

Network Engineering & Technology=C2=A0

Verizon=C2=A0

Silver Spring, MD 20904

Phone: 301 502-1347

Email: gyan.s.mishra@ve= rizon.com

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

--
<= div dir=3D"ltr">

Gyan= =C2=A0 Mishra

Network Engineering & Technology= =C2=A0

Verizon=C2=A0

Silver Spring, MD 20= 904

Phone: 301 502-1347

<= font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.= com



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Halpern" CC: "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Thread-Topic: Suggest some text //RE: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Index: AdXuDC2elnCq19RBRj+9EOq2ogHXpQ== Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 07:54:28 +0000 Message-ID: <965ff6bbf1cb4c2f8d48b7b535a0cf5b@huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.202.118] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_965ff6bbf1cb4c2f8d48b7b535a0cf5bhuaweicom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 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d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1582882614; x=1582969014; i=@elandsys.com; bh=QGkt1xyu8973Iz6EM8WyCSQ5PVl9aPt1sPY3HkPgLLM=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=HN7kPN1BREx8TYEfIzxSlRTiet9UrvKL1YOJ9kwzct+eXHJL/qrVkOKy6cSJ+cxfD 9QIXvT3sOawcChjad1/8E1wcvi0+AI4PENTO8p8L2TZ12eN5yl3ENyX6TNejfvIOvK gUuLf0TtTYhM0JQvaoqeMZRdhhPx8CVe3kVzZ4h4= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20200228011557.0bd1a0b0@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 01:36:09 -0800 To: bruno.decraene@orange.com, spring@ietf.org From: S Moonesamy Cc: Warren Kumari , Martin Vigoureux , Rob Shakir In-Reply-To: <23106_1582880310_5E58D636_23106_323_2_53C29892C857584299CB F5D05346208A48DC9786@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <5D218BFB-0D6F-4F7D-858F-B571A67DC47F@leddy.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20200227113437.10ad6088@elandnews.com> <23106_1582880310_5E58D636_23106_323_2_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DC9786@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 09:37:04 -0000 Dear Mr Decraene, At 12:58 AM 28-02-2020, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote: >1) People have the right to express, including to hum sometimes, but >decision is not based on the number of "+1". >Do you have the impression that the decision is based on some voting >scheme? (Assuming the decision was made in the first place...) If >so, could you please help me see what makes you feel so? My comment about the above was a response to the comment at https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/nIAqSeZJKq64QHbyy_ZrNqk_CXg/ >2) As regards to the timing, the duration of the call for comments >has indeed elapsed. >If your comment is related to the actual work, as you may have seen, >there has been a high number of comments on the list so there is >work to be done on the resolution of the comments. The more >comments, the more time. The harder the comment, the more time. I >can't provide or force people to provide an ETA for the resolutions >of comments. I think that working on improving the document is more >important than a few weeks delay. BTW, I'm not aware of specific >timing requirement to advance a document to RFC. Closest things I've >seen is "SOON" [1] and "timely" [2] I enquired about the working group process. I don't see anything in the reference to RFC 2026 about Working Group procedures. The second reference is to an Internet-Draft about the definition of the word "timely". As far as I am aware, that Internet-Draft is not part of IETF Working Group procedures. >If your question is related to formal state, is your point that the >datatracker state should have been moved from " In WG Last Call " to >" Revised I-D Needed - Issue raised by WGLC ". If so, I tend to >agree with you. Could/will also be " Doc Shepherd Follow-up >Underway" at some point. > >That been said, as I've said on the list, the end of the WG LC is >not the end of the ability for the WG to make technical comments on >the list. [3]. One example may be the latest comment from Chris Bowers. > >3) Your specific questions been answered, it's not crystal clear to >me what are you trying to achieve with your email. Do you believe >the document should advance faster, slower, not advance? That your >comments were not adequately answered? (although I'm not seen any >comment from your side on the mailing list). Please help me >understand your root concern. My question was about when the the Working Group Last Call ends. I don't view it as appropriate to determine whether the document should advance faster or slower as I am not responsible to make such a determination. Regards, S. 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draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Index: AdXsmBuY1tqntXEdSECRXFRXLBEUfQBh2QLQ Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 10:12:12 +0000 Message-ID: <4550B012882B0A4482C132CAB19DDA5905720A5E@dggemi529-mbs.china.huawei.com> References: <5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D9364A1C2@DGGEMM532-MBX.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <5A5B4DE12C0DAC44AF501CD9A2B01A8D9364A1C2@DGGEMM532-MBX.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.203.208] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4550B012882B0A4482C132CAB19DDA5905720A5Edggemi529mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [spring] =?gb2312?b?tPC4tDogUmVxdWVzdCB0byBjbG9zZSB0aGUgTEMgYW5k?= =?gb2312?b?IG1vdmUgZm9yd2FyZC8vUkU6IFdHTEMgLSBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLXNwcmluZy1z?= =?gb2312?b?cnY2LW5ldHdvcmstcHJvZ3JhbW1pbmc=?= X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG 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+1

 

Best Regards,

Ruizhao

 

 

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Lizhenbin
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2020= =C4=EA2=D4= =C226=C8=D5 19:55
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: bruno.decraene@orange.com; 'SPRING WG List' <spring@ietf.org>=
=B3=AD=CB=CD: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-= spring-srv6-network-programming@ietf.org>
=D6=F7=CC=E2: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-= spring-srv6-network-programming

 

Hi Bruno and WG,

The LC has lasted for almost 3 months = which greatly exceeds the expected 2 week. In the process all the comments = have been resolved while some issues is raised again and again with little value.

On the other hand, there have been mul= tiple commercial implementation and inter-op test and almost 20 deployments= for SRv6 which justify the solution proposed by the draft in practice.

 

We sincerely request to close the LC o= f the draft and move forward.

 

 

 

Best Regards,

Zhenbin (Robin)

 

 

From: bruno.decraene@orange.com = [mailto:bruno.decraene@orange.= com]
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2019 1:15 AM
To: 'SPRING WG List' <spring@i= etf.org>
Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-s= pring-srv6-network-programming <draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming@i= etf.org>
Subject: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

 

Hello SPRING,
 
This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last =
Call on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming [1].

 


Please read this document if you haven't read the=
 most recent version, and send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no late=
r than December 20.


 


You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment=
, but consider not duplicating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comm=
ents which are only spring specifics.


 


If you are raising a point which you expect will =
be specifically debated on the mailing list, consider using a specific emai=
l/thread for this point.


This may help avoiding that the thread become spe=
cific to this point and that other points get forgotten (or that the thread=
 get converted into parallel independent discussions)

 


Thank you,


Bruno


 


[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-=
ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-05


 


 


____________________________________________________=
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/o:p>


 


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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a =
ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.


 


This message and its attachments may contain confide=
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Thank you.
--_000_4550B012882B0A4482C132CAB19DDA5905720A5Edggemi529mbschi_-- From nobody Fri Feb 28 02:55:27 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 232113A15DF for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 02:55:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6zGXS2ANTaRc for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 02:55:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x32f.google.com (mail-ot1-x32f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AF60E3A0755 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 02:55:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x32f.google.com with SMTP id w6so2193289otk.0 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 02:55:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=60XTBDsy/8R3JMG3/p6YpNN3r7mLtDafLJZyk8SWs8k=; b=cwSS8xWK2C+Ip2detZ5uUxrYGW/duVVLhowhhYUYLBhKB6uB2rTGdBHaUxHsibpxPm hl6vqDM1dp4RyK948o+aNpJtgboDqPmLRho0e5C/rVfDCa5egf7QLQKwuqKcAbN+zj92 N6UchP39figNHa5DKd6WuhxJqc9cs4Ri4Bg5x91XhzX8og8rBK48Yx2pZC3lfPzixXFM 3iLz8+bIcvPGZ9yP1e1AcLa9qx638+QGrxlS5fRRLi1X1n2IKMOoQlNf3HvSVf7/xOnq mhj4R4wKG0SWsaJJRDfDCU1Zd0PJKhGrH5yv5uSYXxCVA7s3a+bUs/55WCCSIQOEs/M+ 9GuA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=60XTBDsy/8R3JMG3/p6YpNN3r7mLtDafLJZyk8SWs8k=; b=TpeVdnKY96/Bke3LMF6ETiI350eS2sqwgQs92cOMuSs9/xGNvdbeBQZX1xHYPn6/LR eb9fxpZc6y05bLAw455HD+iP+KxUsiYLK7//UG4docSQsBj5m0kqa9bOpCNbXx4rZ6gi wEeCwpOWr2C95vZej2UcqENC6ITXzRW+zRVfGrLWo5hVYabv8Iq7aYgAFErQsFtfUJLU lzR9hY/e+rvPBlL+k3JTk1j+NP6tC4OLvMV5Mhz+bzYkmhQeo0OvsI9wN29Qlj4nuiOi D+JcfhkT3sVk4sFINZX6JrOpKPP6UDadAUMU/RnrIg9hYbpsEKyLFe/UlMmilQbRvMHi XMFA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWyM1VM1edrRPSuZN6IedV6bOTj5a1hM+JLuxKxt3TqSl3rl4Sy iEhU+gKiVeJYLtAnGA3UNouo6UuR9MP5MdhY/91/3w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwpaf8L+OH6KEIgYJ9x79vXB5pgnFg1PYYcYFH4379hq77SWYFhNiG1lRXYk+HfDF3SYs8SqkcLp3JJxUZfn2I= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:7083:: with SMTP id l3mr2614726otj.193.1582887318881; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 02:55:18 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <158248836511.1031.1350509839394231473@ietfa.amsl.com> <7481061F-75A5-4E4D-80AE-40E1F933E94A@cisco.com> <1BB7ED35-98EC-4A73-92A3-AD043D462CF7@steffann.nl> <97141983-EDF7-4C1E-A8F1-4ADCD345BC5A@cisco.com> <470E6DF4-0EF8-4EC8-8F84-1D5C84CEC5B9@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: <470E6DF4-0EF8-4EC8-8F84-1D5C84CEC5B9@juniper.net> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 11:55:08 +0100 Message-ID: To: John Scudder Cc: SPRING WG , 6man WG , Ron Bonica , "daniel.voyer@bell.ca" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005c9653059fa0acba" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 10:55:21 -0000 --0000000000005c9653059fa0acba Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi John, > I have an additional observation, or question, about Dan=E2=80=99s scenar= io. Almost all communication is bidirectional. > Presumably this means a router that=E2=80=99s the tail end of an SRv6 pat= h in one direction is the head end in the other. While your observation is correct that most TCP connections are bidir SR in a lot of cases can operate only in one direction. Needless to say it can also be used with UDP streaming. To extend Ketan's OTT video example let me observe that in a lot of transactions queries from clients are tiny and do not TE capabilities while responses are huge and bursty and may indeed benefit from special handling. Sure if you think of applications like VPNs than you are right .. regardless of the size of the packets proper tagging must occur in either direction - but this is just one use of SRv6 perhaps not even the major one. - - - Now as one friend just asked me offline - putting all IPv6 dogmas aside - what is the technical issue with removing previously applied extension header from the packet within a given operator's network ? What breaks when you do that ? Thx, R. On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 10:11 PM John Scudder wrote: > I have an additional observation, or question, about Dan=E2=80=99s scenar= io. > Almost all communication is bidirectional. Presumably this means a router > that=E2=80=99s the tail end of an SRv6 path in one direction is the head = end in the > other. Doesn=E2=80=99t a head end need to add an SRH? If I=E2=80=99ve got= ten that right, > then we can extend Ron=E2=80=99s list with one more item. That is, appare= ntly the > ultimate segment endpoint: > > =E2=80=A2 Can process a SID, received as an IPv6 DA, on the fast path > =E2=80=A2 Cannot process an SRH on receipt, even if Segments Left equal 0= , on the > fast path. > =E2=80=A2 Can add an SRH on transmission, on the fast path > > Even though strictly speaking the second and third bullet points aren=E2= =80=99t > mutually exclusive, it=E2=80=99s a little difficult to imagine a real rou= ter that > would have both these properties simultaneously. Perhaps I=E2=80=99m not = being > creative enough in imagining deployment scenarios? Since this scenario is > claimed as an important reason this problematic feature is needed, it wou= ld > be great if someone who understands it would elucidate, thanks. > > One further point, Ron says =E2=80=9CI wonder whether it is a good idea t= o stretch > the IPv6 standard to accommodate IPv6-challenged devices.=E2=80=9D I also= wonder > this, especially because these devices will have a relatively limited > lifetime in the network.[*] I don=E2=80=99t find the cost/benefit attract= ive of > making a permanent detrimental change to the IPv6 architecture to > accommodate a temporary deployment issue. > > Regards, > > =E2=80=94John > > --0000000000005c9653059fa0acba Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi John,

> I have a= n additional observation, or question, about Dan=E2=80=99s scenario. Almost= all communication is bidirectional.=C2=A0
> Presumably this m= eans a router that=E2=80=99s the tail end of an SRv6 path in one direction = is the head end in the other.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

While your observation is correct that most TCP connections are bidir SR = in a lot of cases can operate only in one direction. Needless to say it can= also be used with UDP streaming.=C2=A0

To extend = Ketan's OTT video example let me observe that in a lot of transactions = queries from clients are tiny and do not TE capabilities=C2=A0while respons= es are huge and bursty=C2=A0and may indeed benefit from special handling.= =C2=A0

Sure if you think of applications like VPNs= than you are right .. regardless of the size of the packets proper tagging= must occur in either direction - but this is just one use of SRv6 perhaps = not even the major one.=C2=A0

- - -=C2=A0

Now as one friend just asked me offline - putting all IPv6= dogmas aside - what is the technical issue with removing previously applie= d extension header from the packet within a given operator's network ? = What breaks when you do that ?=C2=A0

Thx,
R.


On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 10:11 PM John Scudder <= jgs=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.i= etf.org> wrote:
I have an additional observation, or question, about Dan=E2=80=99s scenario= . Almost all communication is bidirectional. Presumably this means a router= that=E2=80=99s the tail end of an SRv6 path in one direction is the head e= nd in the other. Doesn=E2=80=99t a head end need to add an SRH? If I=E2=80=99ve gotten that right, then we can extend Ron=E2=80=99= s list with one more item. That is, apparently the ultimate segment endpoin= t:
=C2=A0
=E2=80=A2 Can process a SI= D, received as an IPv6 DA, on the fast path
=E2=80=A2 Cannot process a= n SRH on receipt, even if Segments Left equal 0, on the fast path.
=E2=80=A2 Can add an SRH on tra= nsmission, on the fast path

Even though strictly speaking the second and third bullet points aren= =E2=80=99t mutually exclusive, it=E2=80=99s a little difficult to imagine a= real router that would have both these properties simultaneously. Perhaps = I=E2=80=99m not being creative enough in imagining deployment scenarios? Since this scenario is claimed as an important reaso= n this problematic feature is needed, it would be great if someone who unde= rstands it would elucidate, thanks.

One further point, Ron says =E2=80=9CI wonder whether it is a good ide= a to stretch the IPv6 standard to accommodate IPv6-challenged devices.=E2= =80=9D I also wonder this, especially because these devices will have a rel= atively limited lifetime in the network.[*] I don=E2=80=99t find the cost/benefit attractive of making a permanent det= rimental change to the IPv6 architecture to accommodate a temporary deploym= ent issue.=C2=A0

Regards,

=E2=80=94John

--0000000000005c9653059fa0acba-- From nobody Fri Feb 28 04:02:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 443363A16B8; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 04:02:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=steffann.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0CVuU1nxPbGA; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 04:02:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sintact.nl (mail.sintact.nl [83.247.10.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A56D83A0899; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 04:02:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6788349; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 13:02:14 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=steffann.nl; h= x-mailer:date:date:message-id:subject:subject:mime-version :content-type:content-type:from:from:received:received; s=mail; t=1582891331; bh=WzTljdYJEOlU7vqeVKuL+8lNcGm3v/U2w3ucj2cXb6M=; b= ABUATsurWI+15MokwRVc+yEgd1eN7PEn8zCI3o9af3X+ZvWlxBuG97uw/ZtaaGkN CKzDi6l3vZDxyzHwa3Z2zNe6oRHcBk5Tbyj34KEZAQ4fxw4ZEihviCxQs2lXrVOA 9+NUgi1tnG5D4s5k60OldlCk0iE/n++vSeAfeNfNX6Y= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.sintact.nl Received: from mail.sintact.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.sintact.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id 75g4vmjp2jo4; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 13:02:11 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:d99f:7257:bc1b:f895] (unknown [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:d99f:7257:bc1b:f895]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3C5A03C; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 13:02:11 +0100 (CET) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_2C5B6F5F-A764-4608-B120-B205B0FEDBB0"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3594.4.19\)) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 13:02:07 +0100 To: SPRING WG List , 6man WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3594.4.19) Archived-At: Subject: [spring] RFC8200 update? X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 12:02:54 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_2C5B6F5F-A764-4608-B120-B205B0FEDBB0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, I have been thinking about SRv6 and the whole discussion around header = removal at one of the SR nodes. While I strongly see the current network = programming PSP function as a violation of RFC8200, one of the possible = options is of course to update RFC8200 to allow some things that are = currently not allowed. Before you start throwing rotten tomatoes, hear me out :) The most important argument against modifying a packet between the = sender and the final receiver is that it can cause surprises for the = sender. ICMP errors getting back to the sender about stuff the sender = didn't do, pMTUd problems etc. And I think this is a very strong = argument, and we shouldn't cause any surprises for the sender. But, what if the sender *asks* the network to do things to its packets? = Like in network programming. If the sender asks to have the network = perform a certain function, it can't come as a surprise when it gets an = ICMP error after the packet has been modified. It asked for that = modification itself! And with that in mind, we might actually allow much = more than just header removal in the network. What if we update RFC8200 to allow packet manipulation in the network if = and only if the sender of the packet explicitly asked for that? That = would open the door for a whole range of innovation (PSP, WAN = optimisation, payload compression etc), but only when requested. If the = sender explicitly includes network programming instructions then there = is no need anymore to forbid the execution of those instructions. No = surprises, the possibility of smarts in the network, while still = preserving the current semantics of an end-to-end network by default = with strong rules about not messing with the packet. Would this be a way forward that would accommodate everyones = requirements? Cheers, Sander --Apple-Mail=_2C5B6F5F-A764-4608-B120-B205B0FEDBB0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEl13OIanoifT0p8LWWPjdc9pon8sFAl5ZAT8ACgkQWPjdc9po n8s1lQ/+LJGm2PeTMTVs65f1iEZ+folPdthf0TtHMWq/7X3I4PX0ioF5qe0XPhwV AtLK1OLz77nQ8UN8mHnbJCqFuSmiZK+KpWlhGb01sU78VNlu1H6fdQiJTKrJ/0Y+ hZy2Dd/65o/cdxuI9SwlhMvV+6ey3lu8aNNwpOeUJldN4Jg6ndWTFfTy39hJHy9k Jae3P91tNWpkXb3X1llrLCaKrySjr2B/Y+ydncCf0cdGX4vKZh7F60i4nAWs1PV9 F5WAyfGbwZkDweuHB9cT4FuSoGXmgbkyuIM2z2hY44jzopYw8TM9+2UnaNejvisf u5yM320m/2D/bPE3pmtprNzMDD4V55dgibiBEJCcO5c0vX61/mSxp+VFWs/e3jbN Fq4t8x/bxuO9IgbumuM/RPMx3jJlEkhbtQ9ucAQkm4EyD/hZoK000iawuRH1hw/P 4BuibCIQKD23CtQyRmW09TqX8m4GP0UvWpSUn6c1wAS5Vpa57xj6hcvM88rzFOQo NKY8QgyBfYCiNZFXL71CBVIg5lg/eM0F+uFC8qNtOlxdNBORQ5M1Fr+wBh+RRb7w A3V1kh0P5YLhVRNzATTEm8AIkVtgHjcwlgvwBe/L0xgHbAVZezpOv/Oha/HuuZQT KfAcsaj4lrwxD68ZfKw+s3TBeOtpSlebnHNfcfPyQYJalHqjZQQ= =1duz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_2C5B6F5F-A764-4608-B120-B205B0FEDBB0-- From nobody Fri Feb 28 04:18:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 956CD3A16F6 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 04:18:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6K4jQhJ9Nus8 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 04:18:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from eu-smtp-delivery-182.mimecast.com (eu-smtp-delivery-182.mimecast.com [207.82.80.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3861D3A16E3 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 04:18:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR03-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-ve1eur03lp2052.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.9.52]) (Using TLS) by relay.mimecast.com with ESMTP id uk-mta-150-9D8UmcmCPJWkPzn5uRtJ3g-1; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 12:18:13 +0000 X-MC-Unique: 9D8UmcmCPJWkPzn5uRtJ3g-1 Received: from DBBPR03MB5415.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (20.179.47.79) by DBBPR03MB5287.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com (10.255.78.20) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2772.16; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 12:18:12 +0000 Received: from DBBPR03MB5415.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::31cd:8171:1d1f:2fa9]) by DBBPR03MB5415.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::31cd:8171:1d1f:2fa9%5]) with mapi id 15.20.2750.024; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 12:18:12 +0000 From: Andrew Alston To: Sander Steffann , SPRING WG List , 6man WG Thread-Topic: [spring] RFC8200 update? Thread-Index: AQHV7i8K4W7FYkCd4EWPfSUu4+QtZagwhHqw Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 12:18:11 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [2c0f:fe40:3:1:f97c:9027:93c8:5c5a] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 859becdf-6073-40fe-e716-08d7bc48479d x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DBBPR03MB5287: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-forefront-prvs: 0327618309 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(4636009)(396003)(366004)(39860400002)(136003)(346002)(376002)(199004)(189003)(55016002)(478600001)(52536014)(9686003)(186003)(76116006)(66476007)(66446008)(64756008)(66946007)(86362001)(66556008)(71200400001)(33656002)(53546011)(316002)(7696005)(110136005)(8936002)(6506007)(2906002)(8676002)(81156014)(81166006)(5660300002)(15650500001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:DBBPR03MB5287; H:DBBPR03MB5415.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: c5zHcukyAY1MLolGO4ByN/qgN3lQa2QYyxe9swonjMgD7Gho7kQBRQWkli5mNFuI2zsVYpwiHEdmSumgfNuZVXWwfSoJBUmPc9BAWvsTMJjgh8bTDcQXi1lJtsgZcsCq913sU/KSGChoh84pl9lkjWG+GEfjBFQG+6MlTu+ile6U3OJgKxrE1Bid/rQEfwWV3g+QGprxJ3lHJzZWBzeYbPp4+Rv83vCM/ZO9bcg3mt72NUf1nScCvlEyFsHj+FWvvBnZMZhjkEG/FiGE9O2+HkBOLEMzpqVlADK5joMPz3miWbCsFD7slZ92v0O3mVOxE8CIrbGb7fUSO6R8Yq9nKaeY8m57/ToZHplc8yNwbqsKJR0pl4NVUOjcYRF70WfUWahJSQJaMGxLimntT482IROGoOVDPpLf195TLy6Z9CZWq3UasW3u8nSMHXOAzF0J x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: 3oO1gnSHyDhXtXHH6wGNQXw7xIUk78+2H7QBT8/QqHCikfY/DHcjq+5hhMhdfMk5Sk8VHK8i8KKM04ZU53OUfp13Vew0T0Hz2JP7U56N6slNr/Rcwa0NnPFjX869ZwNyTr5WD3Buh3T4qQW9MbtMDeDDbbuAsUqqlZ3P2FSo7/lq/w03MRfz/todclh19m8TnmS7BVqOo6LZH3pbvpmBUA== x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: liquidtelecom.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 859becdf-6073-40fe-e716-08d7bc48479d X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 28 Feb 2020 12:18:12.0372 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 68792612-0f0e-46cb-b16a-fcb82fd80cb1 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: EHF5/SgcUVXgcn1ia0wbdccUVCxcxt1X4Y76lFFkjBkI+qamWAQwxVPTPxKXRhLJtjezB4ffW4G0mEJwduJWM3GMfU8DuEGdwtLioais9gA= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DBBPR03MB5287 X-Mimecast-Spam-Score: 0 X-Mimecast-Originator: liquidtelecom.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] RFC8200 update? X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 12:18:26 -0000 This is certainly an interesting idea - and I'd probably need to give this = a whole lot more thought before commenting properly, but the first thought = that comes to mind is - would we be able to standardize a way to instruct l= ike this. What I would not want to see is every extension header out there having a s= eparate method of instructing the network to allow this behavior whenever t= hey feel like it, because it would create a nightmare both in terms of seei= ng if something was requesting it, and I would imagine, implementing it. So - my question is - what would be the standard way to introduce this - an= d to this I would say - if you wanted to do this you'd almost want to add a= very short extension header that contains this instruction, that is easy t= o see and easy to parse - since I don't see anywhere in the v6 header itsel= f that we could add this functionality as a flag of sorts. Interesting ideas - but as I said - I'd argue that if we went this route - = I'd want a standard shared way to do this by anything coming tomorrow - to = avoid still further divergence. Thanks Andrew > -----Original Message----- > From: spring On Behalf Of Sander Steffann > Sent: Friday, 28 February 2020 15:02 > To: SPRING WG List ; 6man WG > Subject: [spring] RFC8200 update? >=20 > Hi, >=20 > I have been thinking about SRv6 and the whole discussion around header > removal at one of the SR nodes. While I strongly see the current network > programming PSP function as a violation of RFC8200, one of the possible > options is of course to update RFC8200 to allow some things that are > currently not allowed. >=20 > Before you start throwing rotten tomatoes, hear me out :) >=20 > The most important argument against modifying a packet between the > sender and the final receiver is that it can cause surprises for the send= er. > ICMP errors getting back to the sender about stuff the sender didn't do, > pMTUd problems etc. And I think this is a very strong argument, and we > shouldn't cause any surprises for the sender. >=20 > But, what if the sender *asks* the network to do things to its packets? L= ike in > network programming. If the sender asks to have the network perform a > certain function, it can't come as a surprise when it gets an ICMP error = after > the packet has been modified. It asked for that modification itself! And = with > that in mind, we might actually allow much more than just header removal = in > the network. >=20 > What if we update RFC8200 to allow packet manipulation in the network if > and only if the sender of the packet explicitly asked for that? That woul= d > open the door for a whole range of innovation (PSP, WAN optimisation, > payload compression etc), but only when requested. If the sender explicit= ly > includes network programming instructions then there is no need anymore > to forbid the execution of those instructions. No surprises, the possibil= ity of > smarts in the network, while still preserving the current semantics of an= end- > to-end network by default with strong rules about not messing with the > packet. >=20 > Would this be a way forward that would accommodate everyones > requirements? >=20 > Cheers, > Sander From nobody Fri Feb 28 04:52:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EA443A1751; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 04:52:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=steffann.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LOrWToeaeSfD; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 04:52:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sintact.nl (mail.sintact.nl [83.247.10.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 70A3E3A1750; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 04:52:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id E45FB49; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 13:51:25 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=steffann.nl; h= x-mailer:references:in-reply-to:date:date:subject:subject :mime-version:content-type:content-type:message-id:from:from :received:received; s=mail; t=1582894283; bh=N9v4sHrcxv5SXmoo8AS puoqfdNVelgX/IhbMlkC674U=; b=Mk4eUOIJ9Z3TzG5ySOOQlyE/4R1cfUuAlvU aVE4ZHwK1HMXZuN40cpULE5lf//ezKlSze7LXKEWMA+Dr0By36iDUBSD4Y0I1qWw gKnVfXlZhQsZB4y8vcIasDH87wQyKdBdnui15QaK2sYNffu5UTtVFC6FVcsRf+Af 4kUPqhHc= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.sintact.nl Received: from mail.sintact.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.sintact.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id 6amNP17lvCKC; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 13:51:23 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:d99f:7257:bc1b:f895] (unknown [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:d99f:7257:bc1b:f895]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AD6FB3C; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 13:51:23 +0100 (CET) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann Message-Id: <199B7645-A2AC-4E1A-9E6E-7638A200BE80@steffann.nl> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_44EF1627-8F1D-4009-829F-0C772856E835"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3594.4.19\)) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 13:51:22 +0100 In-Reply-To: Cc: SPRING WG List , 6man WG To: Andrew Alston References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3594.4.19) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] RFC8200 update? X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 12:52:11 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_44EF1627-8F1D-4009-829F-0C772856E835 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Andrew, > This is certainly an interesting idea - and I'd probably need to give = this a whole lot more thought before commenting properly, but the first = thought that comes to mind is - would we be able to standardize a way to = instruct like this. >=20 > What I would not want to see is every extension header out there = having a separate method of instructing the network to allow this = behavior whenever they feel like it, because it would create a nightmare = both in terms of seeing if something was requesting it, and I would = imagine, implementing it. Well, it depends on what you deploy in your network. If you deploy SRv6 = NP then nodes sending traffic over your network can use the NP functions = you provide. If you don't provide any functions then there is nothing a = sender can do. This obviously only works when sender and network = cooperate. Otherwise the NP instruction will make no sense. And AFAIK = source-routing, segment-routing etc are not enabled by default these = days, so packets using them will be dropped unless the network is = specifically configured to allow them. > So - my question is - what would be the standard way to introduce this = - and to this I would say - if you wanted to do this you'd almost want = to add a very short extension header that contains this instruction, = that is easy to see and easy to parse - since I don't see anywhere in = the v6 header itself that we could add this functionality as a flag of = sorts. That might be useful for many things besides this. Let's talk. > Interesting ideas - but as I said - I'd argue that if we went this = route - I'd want a standard shared way to do this by anything coming = tomorrow - to avoid still further divergence. I'm not sure a standard way is needed. Maybe limit the scope to "if the = sender of the packet explicitly asked for that using a routing header"? Cheers, Sander --Apple-Mail=_44EF1627-8F1D-4009-829F-0C772856E835 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEl13OIanoifT0p8LWWPjdc9pon8sFAl5ZDMoACgkQWPjdc9po n8sz7BAAw1nq3I2ZE5b/U42VLehR+HB1m3BVHFc5MoIfRUXzZbMF6Jk/TdoEW/R2 43DLTMf4sDIGejMyv8wKlqCgvX7wOBAXlx0uB53Oke+VFg736WWqXXrrsHIP0WPF 3y9ylIOu29rZ0b2mnK8idYd0ahioDPWfyvJIhHvIWYy2/w/BT3IkcRWgUlZCavLs 1SgonZpjdxh4jAvuqhNxToHNhQvdX8o9Vf8wr+RQM29XD57G+x8eA1rQzdzWslse OAZKuyF8bxkhHFR3slORw4vNFKkpowrXM4T+1+QNOANQZwAd5AWXAnvEIoXRo0UN yQnQeyQFKcUoewXyv9/Cd1Q0dHwDRXjxsAL4Ok9OEeCmyj+96KIbLMju04HsV4VU 3mUgbNCTLwAFT1DZ254FpzB9EzKZMJi491FLc8++DArP+f/3nby3sh6Lz0kZcSvM /hv6O7MXLmppLiHEs2/CTO7GjCM9qkMn+lREzLMzdaaRbmOo08O5Xe1FKLQRioOb nG1g1cexQkPG2ICASEfjgLm76BOEfmbDsezi9QRTV+igVvWh5gvm07SGTMMo5ZCi +Ux9lhJFcOzbCibmyLMebiSqL+8VvhpN8OYojj5Q76B2LZWz5HeS1AptpRREYwwd Jz4non7r1gA16AsPLqeK84SnL73BbF8SZDirpvv29uji9PNxb/E= =vkg8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_44EF1627-8F1D-4009-829F-0C772856E835-- From nobody Fri Feb 28 05:19:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DEB03A17CD; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 05:19:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UVezOgML6Mf7; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 05:19:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from cnshjsmin03.nokia-sbell.com (cnshjsmin03.app.nokia-sbell.com [116.246.26.71]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8671B3A17C9; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 05:19:22 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: ac189297-ec3ff7000000bab2-97-5e591352ab31 Received: from CNSHPPEXCH1610.nsn-intra.net (Unknown_Domain [135.251.51.110]) (using TLS with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by cnshjsmin03.nokia-sbell.com (Symantec Messaging Gateway) with SMTP id AA.16.47794.253195E5; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 21:19:14 +0800 (HKT) Received: from CNSHPPEXCH1605.nsn-intra.net (135.251.51.105) by CNSHPPEXCH1610.nsn-intra.net (135.251.51.110) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1713.5; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 21:19:14 +0800 Received: from CNSHPPEXCH1605.nsn-intra.net ([135.251.51.105]) by CNSHPPEXCH1605.nsn-intra.net ([135.251.51.105]) with mapi id 15.01.1713.007; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 21:19:14 +0800 From: "Wang, Weibin (NSB - CN/Shanghai)" To: Sander Steffann , Andrew Alston CC: SPRING WG List , 6man WG Thread-Topic: [spring] RFC8200 update? Thread-Index: AQHV7i8LxAmH5T7u3kOoyrYDwIS5gagv/86AgAAJRgCAAIuvAA== Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 13:19:14 +0000 Message-ID: References: <199B7645-A2AC-4E1A-9E6E-7638A200BE80@steffann.nl> In-Reply-To: <199B7645-A2AC-4E1A-9E6E-7638A200BE80@steffann.nl> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.251.51.115] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprHIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsXS/ts4TzdIODLOYEG/ssX3pw9ZLV6efc9k serCbzaL4xd+MzqweCxZ8pPJ4/H2fkaPC1eeMwYwR3HZpKTmZJalFunbJXBlzD8uU/BavOL7 pOvMDYydwl2MnBwSAiYSpz40M3UxcnEICRxiklj0cycjhPOXUeLpxVnsEM4mRomDn3+xg7Sw CbhJTNq2iw3EFhGIlujv3M0IYjML2Eqs234PrEZYQFVi5ccGqBo1iSOHFzJB2E4Sm1ZuYwGx WYBqzpxoAIvzCthJ/P58mBli2TFGiZ6z7WBDOQXsJVa8OAk2lFFATOL7qTVMEMvEJW49mc8E 8YOAxJI955khbFGJl4//sXYxcgDZShJ9G6DKdSQW7P7EBmFrSyxb+JoZYq+gxMmZT1gmMIrN QjJ1FpKWWUhaZiFpWcDIsopROjmvOCOrODczz8BYLy8/OzNRtzgpNSdHLzk/dxMjMNbWSEya voPx2AHvQ4wCHIxKPLwSzJFxQqyJZcWVuYcYJTiYlUR4N34NjRPiTUmsrEotyo8vKs1JLT7E KM3BoiTO2zJ5YayQQHpiSWp2ampBahFMlomDU6qB0fCIhLGZVN0CRQ3OR1cy2Bb5Keqqzfxj xyNr/vXLdrGS4gXJyctE3m7tP/CHTad97pxzN765O757Wtb/1fW6ecQJLwem0CtTeJ9OFQpj XKe8QFIp7lF4S1lRpfX5sB9hy6vYJ/5c+uQv/7afed7dprYLhPeZ6QXtsM6p0N1an1ZzNKOx X/OIEktxRqKhFnNRcSIAH3Hat7ECAAA= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] RFC8200 update? X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 13:19:28 -0000 In the bearer of srv6 traffic, srv6 domain is only one part of the whole pa= cket journey. Because the srv6 domain is trusted by single operator, it is = no necessary for the outer IPv6 header (for performing SRH function) to inh= erit all IPv6 extension headers specially designed for the initial end-to-e= nd IPv6 communication, for example, the AH is not must for outer IPv6 heade= r and its SRH. Therefore, the outer IPv6 processing of srv6 traffic can app= ropriately relax the restrictions, that is to say, the outer IPv6 encapsula= tion only inherits a part of IPv6 spec. For example, it is allowed to perfo= rm functions such as PSP within SRv6 domain; Could we treat IPv6 headers f= unction of internal and external layers differently, after all, their purpo= ses are different. Cheers! Wang Weibin -----Original Message----- From: ipv6 On Behalf Of Sander Steffann Sent: Friday, February 28, 2020 8:51 PM To: Andrew Alston Cc: SPRING WG List ; 6man WG Subject: Re: [spring] RFC8200 update? Hi Andrew, > This is certainly an interesting idea - and I'd probably need to give thi= s a whole lot more thought before commenting properly, but the first though= t that comes to mind is - would we be able to standardize a way to instruct= like this. >=20 > What I would not want to see is every extension header out there having a= separate method of instructing the network to allow this behavior whenever= they feel like it, because it would create a nightmare both in terms of se= eing if something was requesting it, and I would imagine, implementing it. Well, it depends on what you deploy in your network. If you deploy SRv6 NP = then nodes sending traffic over your network can use the NP functions you p= rovide. If you don't provide any functions then there is nothing a sender c= an do. This obviously only works when sender and network cooperate. Otherwi= se the NP instruction will make no sense. And AFAIK source-routing, segment= -routing etc are not enabled by default these days, so packets using them w= ill be dropped unless the network is specifically configured to allow them. > So - my question is - what would be the standard way to introduce this - = and to this I would say - if you wanted to do this you'd almost want to add= a very short extension header that contains this instruction, that is easy= to see and easy to parse - since I don't see anywhere in the v6 header its= elf that we could add this functionality as a flag of sorts. That might be useful for many things besides this. Let's talk. > Interesting ideas - but as I said - I'd argue that if we went this route = - I'd want a standard shared way to do this by anything coming tomorrow - t= o avoid still further divergence. I'm not sure a standard way is needed. Maybe limit the scope to "if the sen= der of the packet explicitly asked for that using a routing header"? Cheers, Sander From nobody Fri Feb 28 05:25:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AD903A17EE; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 05:25:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=steffann.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kbv4OfV0hkoD; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 05:25:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sintact.nl (mail.sintact.nl [83.247.10.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3CCDC3A17ED; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 05:25:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id A97574B; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:25:08 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=steffann.nl; h= x-mailer:references:in-reply-to:date:date:subject:subject :mime-version:content-type:content-type:message-id:from:from :received:received; s=mail; t=1582896273; bh=X/wapTR7xDHSvbTwTv8 GXwt2WLQcCEEBx1zG1OvorMc=; b=Bee5SwW3VBcK9kApWPN5EseNDMKuLxKREtC Y1RndhgtY/yHillIEqzydXw4IiXyXgnEEMhFDjNYZzggXcYNVcf8l9Sa/4tTJgHY ui0d8rAMQ+8uI+XBkPLhfReY1peLj8jVR0lhdNa4mwLW+U4D8akl8hES8lvFH+6A ayeF6zT0= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.sintact.nl Received: from mail.sintact.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.sintact.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id k2qFnpnitl7k; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:24:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:d99f:7257:bc1b:f895] (unknown [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:d99f:7257:bc1b:f895]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 14EF849; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:24:32 +0100 (CET) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7FD40174-B5CE-4EAD-BC55-000D07C9B475"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3594.4.19\)) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:24:31 +0100 In-Reply-To: Cc: Andrew Alston , SPRING WG List , 6man WG To: "Wang, Weibin (NSB - CN/Shanghai)" References: <199B7645-A2AC-4E1A-9E6E-7638A200BE80@steffann.nl> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3594.4.19) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] RFC8200 update? X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 13:25:44 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7FD40174-B5CE-4EAD-BC55-000D07C9B475 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, > In the bearer of srv6 traffic, srv6 domain is only one part of the = whole packet journey. Because the srv6 domain is trusted by single = operator, it is no necessary for the outer IPv6 header (for performing = SRH function) to inherit all IPv6 extension headers specially designed = for the initial end-to-end IPv6 communication, for example, the AH is = not must for outer IPv6 header and its SRH. Therefore, the outer IPv6 = processing of srv6 traffic can appropriately relax the restrictions, = that is to say, the outer IPv6 encapsulation only inherits a part of = IPv6 spec. No. It uses IPv6 and must therefore follow the rules of IPv6. What I = propose is to update IPv6 to make this possible, but you can't break the = rules in a standard without consensus that the rules can be changed. > For example, it is allowed to perform functions such as PSP within = SRv6 domain; Could we treat IPv6 headers function of internal and = external layers differently, after all, their purposes are different. Let's not use implicit definitions of "internal" and "external" layers. = They don't make sense in a global protocol (and despite your claims that = SRv6 is limited to a specific domain, it really isn't. It uses global = IPv6 addresses and can traverse the global internet). Let's define = global rules that apply to everybody instead, and standardise this = behaviour. Cheers, Sander --Apple-Mail=_7FD40174-B5CE-4EAD-BC55-000D07C9B475 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEl13OIanoifT0p8LWWPjdc9pon8sFAl5ZFI8ACgkQWPjdc9po n8tMRw/8C7fskSBcPxhlTluQhnRrT9HMSCeqnabYIrJmHls4LCWnluxexuMT5GfD oN0SzDtL8SFn8R68dBwrhQDbXZ1mPz6DsDiNo0D1w1fNsJvCju7HyIq0bT3Mb8fa OxNxbTCUwfWKe1oFwZq78iW0NiiXB8Sojl4ZrKtoyM5dSwGPCS3+n60xCBcRZ0Tb KpdiPxjuugYT1b0MHpYXmys3E7rToetfgGSEtYrRRp4j5flQOFyaddnyqCsxEQ+2 HERQiqoUHB1/eAxkjxqX2qB9nYUD52wi+fxbR0YDEgYEsGqpc9XH/GyAx6ekcsmQ oWjVqPzY4csQJZcdytqCky+PChIq6pOxtySV3xLXssA7zrqsz/e43OS4zo/hTXQU HBeUAFmVBTfFd+U5NCFT8SUJIKJNoulPF9FYlFPWRajMMneLZHVBD/ewZFXR/MY1 Bh2n9wOXO1Wop7ZbX7jojXSW4E+/JYJtj4GTrOv5jEJVNuYoPwi7BKPWEH5N6ZwP WPIRA5uZoriR8D6mwim97s8xGxFhl6P4TuLJFlE+9QlEbzvrPFv+JAT1xtNhw6YG ozegcCHITS4jjQ/Bj+cm4Ni54+OBm1NUMKvSQerOh49DEnE9owNzH9XP6p3Gv8nC DmSOlKQZmPAizMsgyVSFcw1TkSfdtUgXhYNfcfH3sHa/mKGejhs= =NEZb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_7FD40174-B5CE-4EAD-BC55-000D07C9B475-- From nobody Fri Feb 28 05:44:14 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6E0B3A182E; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 05:44:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=futurewei.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aa8Y1WI1R6tc; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 05:44:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM12-MW2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-mw2nam12on2107.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.244.107]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 77C9C3A182D; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 05:44:10 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=HfwDrFccEhDGxwExmScG/OfJ7unBSA1095WTFh/uVO1Vyg7o6r91A/hXjpd/Jms1LPvvA2hv2qaJNa7+roMOnHcDNwYvZLCydsMUqu42/of4sEQ8Xi2XPBIgTRy/fkHy5xduFF9TnVBlPcYu/nv9AhdiXgkK4nBVBoWrHsUoSIgkc0hnKwIb6Fj5ghVAcCpneERYFcEajSyOLtTAdVcJnXN7uPN6PlLIc6cvUtgqV0MBohw7dXufpdxS/DZtZ+sQxXUq+MsSK5vECYimYzrBnOdGODfXrpeySVCyJovxJbLb4w72qmW6GNtZ7geDf9IitPYwlhwMrrswLhPdZnPykg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=7xUMWNCNPyfu70j+AziypXubYFqJHFLL4B8nfQFhGSU=; b=HN+PZYAUX9pL6xmOCjkJrt7iBhizS/ziWuAVm7SK5i52kkZFeKFqZBh4vf0JlgWIBwxMEOm/IXMtWthoNwFmUr62ltkvxIJ4gu23IZMX4ZBVqQhlpprLFr9AiFv3q4W+G00jHbtnbgCQvMP1uHZCxp9qm53mmkCCAMXHSVlaEiewYMOis44cXftS9abuZFVPfgy+uONR0p6ZFpjj8amFFBOWCAbczvBrHjhQAAvRtRsh4aS8A+DUHNGsog6nYnvPc2WQ4iU8jAF6W5KbAD5b4dfMvfg5XbDNkC/udDgcGgH0pRqvrOip0fQcbPKBpQ0d4sZ+W51Wo2t4pJMjcoC4Sw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=futurewei.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=futurewei.com; dkim=pass header.d=futurewei.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=Futurewei.com; s=selector2; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=7xUMWNCNPyfu70j+AziypXubYFqJHFLL4B8nfQFhGSU=; b=ACR3SrKvcQm7D2UbS2pZ5OaR4ZPZRDeaW8q8Ns7K0eC6dkWMwLxi0aSfs+FQ9H0oyF1lVeZ8+Ltaxm2zwFmGQatNZxeHYbZ9CMFLGG36XlCzS3/yYZyk8Ls7hy6w0InHwyB3q4LzrVHBh1DQ2mMvQO8cUDSBOXt8DuqtkMmhubI= Received: from DM6PR13MB3066.namprd13.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:5:19d::18) by DM6PR13MB2396.namprd13.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:5:cd::31) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2793.5; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 13:44:07 +0000 Received: from DM6PR13MB3066.namprd13.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::ad27:afcc:1220:dc84]) by DM6PR13MB3066.namprd13.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::ad27:afcc:1220:dc84%7]) with mapi id 15.20.2772.018; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 13:44:07 +0000 From: James Guichard To: Sander Steffann , "Wang, Weibin (NSB - CN/Shanghai)" CC: SPRING WG List , 6man WG , Andrew Alston Thread-Topic: [spring] RFC8200 update? Thread-Index: AQHV7i8Ip9dSuMP40Uu/Bt6BTYI3hKgwheqAgAAJRgCAAAfJAIAAAXqAgAAEWfA= Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 13:44:07 +0000 Message-ID: References: <199B7645-A2AC-4E1A-9E6E-7638A200BE80@steffann.nl> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=james.n.guichard@futurewei.com; x-originating-ip: [47.14.47.233] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 114366ee-38a0-4b4e-5e8f-08d7bc54485b x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DM6PR13MB2396: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:7691; x-forefront-prvs: 0327618309 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(4636009)(136003)(376002)(346002)(396003)(39850400004)(366004)(199004)(189003)(7696005)(54906003)(5660300002)(64756008)(66476007)(76116006)(66556008)(53546011)(66946007)(66574012)(6506007)(110136005)(2906002)(71200400001)(52536014)(66446008)(8676002)(86362001)(15650500001)(478600001)(4326008)(186003)(26005)(316002)(81166006)(9686003)(81156014)(33656002)(8936002)(55016002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:DM6PR13MB2396; H:DM6PR13MB3066.namprd13.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: futurewei.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: bnNM4UabsDuhQrnqJWG/GMJfD+Oljapv8B7EYHg/NL+RaqCKD56IPA7AsI/8Y1JvwqAr6kBfogweR5PH6SxVmGwrISLPGO0F94lkp9/h4pN1tEDMNY+ex6lXyfmPR+INIwod0+Mbihmo6BqfD/KyKTZ5q1YfquAthlCnt/OKlsxP5CNWbBW9NO0vF3V+8PoKsRQPbIGnNAPK8PXv7gbsRgqn3bDrTNvxrtyK8ExDQjk/4Lni44/3sCJJsg4NXJB4eD1LMVoxVBUZAGjwOml8+KIRUxumN9hGklgpeVE8zxA1DNtZKupTo4dG5rGwb+mw/KkgWh4nWD1n/p6dBAEdJUbI8SQPG9oLfxWPkY/PiBpT+RHZe4qmLCmIOmpoCNcvJ2oGpCoqUcZBis5W3ddamfUmYt7jBun36fSi83HwRX7UW9UckgtCXzCBuUW2H87X x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: yjNqku//cWljkDu409xsqcZ59YSmM+h+tyR7uN2xYUq1keX9BPaRDbzGQqlOku2c6oJDU1QiJQ1BmPK1//6fABQWwJF9EeNXOFfRVcTSYZaIHVyBVgqqLM4A2DRGDFaAI+lji5OP/2TKaxW7/sREhw== x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: Futurewei.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 114366ee-38a0-4b4e-5e8f-08d7bc54485b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 28 Feb 2020 13:44:07.1148 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 0fee8ff2-a3b2-4018-9c75-3a1d5591fedc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: l+dSqXHkE4ZJR3I22e3//F4MueXz7+v9YEGBXat8GNP3TZuf70NhyqAtP+FTUQsD2YQOxqvYBEkN97YLS1E6kw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR13MB2396 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] RFC8200 update? X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 13:44:12 -0000 Hi Sander, RFC8402 explicitly says in section 8 security considerations that "by defau= lt, the explicit routing information MUST NOT be leaked through the boundar= ies of the administered domain". The intent therefore seems clear that "glo= bal internet" does not apply; interestingly enough MPLS took the same appro= ach and has been widely deployed for years. Respectfully, Jim -----Original Message----- From: spring On Behalf Of Sander Steffann Sent: Friday, February 28, 2020 8:25 AM To: Wang, Weibin (NSB - CN/Shanghai) Cc: SPRING WG List ; 6man WG ; Andrew Alsto= n Subject: Re: [spring] RFC8200 update? Hi, > In the bearer of srv6 traffic, srv6 domain is only one part of the whole = packet journey. Because the srv6 domain is trusted by single operator, it i= s no necessary for the outer IPv6 header (for performing SRH function) to i= nherit all IPv6 extension headers specially designed for the initial end-to= -end IPv6 communication, for example, the AH is not must for outer IPv6 hea= der and its SRH. Therefore, the outer IPv6 processing of srv6 traffic can a= ppropriately relax the restrictions, that is to say, the outer IPv6 encapsu= lation only inherits a part of IPv6 spec. No. It uses IPv6 and must therefore follow the rules of IPv6. What I propos= e is to update IPv6 to make this possible, but you can't break the rules in= a standard without consensus that the rules can be changed. > For example, it is allowed to perform functions such as PSP within SRv6 d= omain; Could we treat IPv6 headers function of internal and external layer= s differently, after all, their purposes are different. Let's not use implicit definitions of "internal" and "external" layers. The= y don't make sense in a global protocol (and despite your claims that SRv6 = is limited to a specific domain, it really isn't. It uses global IPv6 addre= sses and can traverse the global internet). Let's define global rules that = apply to everybody instead, and standardise this behaviour. Cheers, Sander From nobody Fri Feb 28 06:02:47 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DF5C3A1874 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 06:02:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 95gmhUcJqHe5 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 06:02:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x236.google.com (mail-oi1-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E51A3A1871 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 06:02:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x236.google.com with SMTP id a22so2881294oid.13 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 06:02:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=LAUtKvwoEpIkzOQqJD6Tt98D4dK0ES2RR1Tt7MgCuTo=; b=D2RnlC9FeGIb+tIwAZRp2+lf/Xa4YKY+L+atTeh84QxsyehdN7/f2s5OStRQi8Fk+J xnEu9sydywgQCWj4AT+xUfDlmf9xwmIdnCm8bpKrw4SPr8WRvNyMyjx1OpeYlUugafX1 vKHokSvJnNRwF153whkRszKyGD49xMGriuPViMvdWBBmPoaEWN/iPfUKtI828NQ/MYFo f9eGZVV1Olar9V/kV+8O8PL5UhGQQgzin1a7a/7J9DkMgOrInLXESN5uj4TvGecgEH42 P+evjslFabQVVdhAwyqNuSdfFYRMeb1Oplakyl70bSLocmdv6wsGgXepX0ax54HxdUty aGNQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=LAUtKvwoEpIkzOQqJD6Tt98D4dK0ES2RR1Tt7MgCuTo=; b=kYrNzhkdTNPuuRYjvztjv6vDph9rHkLJD1hiVDfgNWu7y2cKktCRNEhnD9ujhxONgc n1M9JyEjGwgLKBYyNoOGNp1gTG8V3+ZvbpkgEbnZz+Su8HD/29fIqyvwokaMpyUdCFDI Upo/HqgdMuBUBODBaNo65qaZ2zgglEQUFU100VirYDwt/9HIHjJfKEPuvSbAG57l2M9N PioDWfibg+pQNQgyb2JFHMxQ6QgjJNHVisR42dt09Qjkp1Fx2K6BAWF7uoYPZnXf0AAO /Mj9vOOCXDCnuwFMabtuuUwhKa55g1Oh7biNL5pmiv45UYeecpojOzQSIsYXEQ8TOPNp 2p1A== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUqVO7Av8t76CZRIfg5fRKfWHH+ssT+GTNe2llL+ZKYZLBxqPDp wqmyjWYzvNK7B9GvRCi5COK0ButjTdKD7EZB+k9AmQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzTzAOwXOaSRKoT7yqIqtJ3zYXtjthMKL2njN6t504E83SUv9/1ZLvLwN0kr451MOPzgV2nMJhcW870GYR6+IM= X-Received: by 2002:aca:d985:: with SMTP id q127mr3079196oig.132.1582898557708; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 06:02:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <199B7645-A2AC-4E1A-9E6E-7638A200BE80@steffann.nl> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 15:02:23 +0100 Message-ID: To: James Guichard Cc: Sander Steffann , "Wang, Weibin (NSB - CN/Shanghai)" , SPRING WG List , 6man WG , Andrew Alston Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003f8164059fa34ac2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] RFC8200 update? X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:02:44 -0000 --0000000000003f8164059fa34ac2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > interestingly enough MPLS took the same approach Well not really. As you know, MPLS unicast and multicast have a new ethertype. SRv6 folks were just too nice and thought to leverage 0x86DD. I think that was a mistake. I further think we should fix it. Cheers, R. On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 2:44 PM James Guichard < james.n.guichard@futurewei.com> wrote: > Hi Sander, > > RFC8402 explicitly says in section 8 security considerations that "by > default, the explicit routing information MUST NOT be leaked through the > boundaries of the administered domain". The intent therefore seems clear > that "global internet" does not apply; interestingly enough MPLS took the > same approach and has been widely deployed for years. > > Respectfully, > > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: spring On Behalf Of Sander Steffann > Sent: Friday, February 28, 2020 8:25 AM > To: Wang, Weibin (NSB - CN/Shanghai) > Cc: SPRING WG List ; 6man WG ; Andrew > Alston > Subject: Re: [spring] RFC8200 update? > > Hi, > > > In the bearer of srv6 traffic, srv6 domain is only one part of the whole > packet journey. Because the srv6 domain is trusted by single operator, it > is no necessary for the outer IPv6 header (for performing SRH function) to > inherit all IPv6 extension headers specially designed for the initial > end-to-end IPv6 communication, for example, the AH is not must for outer > IPv6 header and its SRH. Therefore, the outer IPv6 processing of srv6 > traffic can appropriately relax the restrictions, that is to say, the outer > IPv6 encapsulation only inherits a part of IPv6 spec. > > No. It uses IPv6 and must therefore follow the rules of IPv6. What I > propose is to update IPv6 to make this possible, but you can't break the > rules in a standard without consensus that the rules can be changed. > > > For example, it is allowed to perform functions such as PSP within SRv6 > domain; Could we treat IPv6 headers function of internal and external > layers differently, after all, their purposes are different. > > Let's not use implicit definitions of "internal" and "external" layers. > They don't make sense in a global protocol (and despite your claims that > SRv6 is limited to a specific domain, it really isn't. It uses global IPv6 > addresses and can traverse the global internet). Let's define global rules > that apply to everybody instead, and standardise this behaviour. > > Cheers, > Sander > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --0000000000003f8164059fa34ac2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> interestingly enough MPLS took the same approach=C2= =A0=C2=A0

Well not really. As you know, MPLS unicast= and multicast have a new ethertype.=C2=A0

SRv6 fo= lks were just too nice and thought to leverage=C2=A00x86DD. I think that wa= s a mistake. I further think we should fix it.=C2=A0

Cheers,
R.

On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 2:44 PM James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futurewei.= com> wrote:
Hi Sander,

RFC8402 explicitly says in section 8 security considerations that "by = default, the explicit routing information MUST NOT be leaked through the bo= undaries of the administered domain". The intent therefore seems clear= that "global internet" does not apply; interestingly enough MPLS= took the same approach and has been widely deployed for years.

Respectfully,

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Sander Steffann
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2020 8:25 AM
To: Wang, Weibin (NSB - CN/Shanghai) <weibin.wang@nokia-sbell.com>
Cc: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>; Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidteleco= m.com>
Subject: Re: [spring] RFC8200 update?

Hi,

> In the bearer of srv6 traffic, srv6 domain is only one part of the who= le packet journey. Because the srv6 domain is trusted by single operator, i= t is no necessary for the outer IPv6 header (for performing SRH function) t= o inherit all IPv6 extension headers specially designed for the initial end= -to-end IPv6 communication, for example, the AH is not must for outer IPv6 = header and its SRH. Therefore, the outer IPv6 processing of srv6 traffic ca= n appropriately relax the restrictions, that is to say, the outer IPv6 enca= psulation only inherits a part of IPv6 spec.

No. It uses IPv6 and must therefore follow the rules of IPv6. What I propos= e is to update IPv6 to make this possible, but you can't break the rule= s in a standard without consensus that the rules can be changed.

> For example, it is allowed to perform functions such as PSP within SRv= 6 domain;=C2=A0 Could we treat IPv6 headers function of internal and extern= al layers differently, after all, their purposes are different.

Let's not use implicit definitions of "internal" and "ex= ternal" layers. They don't make sense in a global protocol (and de= spite your claims that SRv6 is limited to a specific domain, it really isn&= #39;t. It uses global IPv6 addresses and can traverse the global internet).= Let's define global rules that apply to everybody instead, and standar= dise this behaviour.

Cheers,
Sander

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--0000000000003f8164059fa34ac2-- From nobody Fri Feb 28 06:09:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F5393A1895; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 06:08:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=futurewei.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cA6RqS6kEapq; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 06:08:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM04-CO1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr690133.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.69.133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AAFEB3A1891; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 06:08:55 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=LPjJkKmD8X/1bF06pQhCh8RDWdBtbcNYkbb/Z7mG+56nY5X4IO3waV9kIMSw+FogoSpE8WLJtsfFor65kjNhd8cecIorznR7b1Oq3tWNi86lPCSCbDZyP6z1LGpP0vE+T+dEXAQlycwJINY33pwTMgYrOlpDwjWJHWkpYsaMpC37FN1tzXPw0YMrGHWt3KjQ6vH0YeegU+D12PGNJRJXwprSKPUs4pVx6s3ZWu/wA8ZvZDzjYHxU+rvhDUqtC4OfAaHeW4zquVt3hJPCAtK7XAxi0nMLwJjAGZ+bZMUTkF+52KJ+vadomxajTbhjeu44hLofA8/UPT7ybl9lppL+Ag== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=aACSZdTFuIkGjRyWm/TIGBbbE9AaKQOb4/ol6+M40ec=; b=nsZDn7I/OsAJ7TTcH8DGuTi/pu45/aRCeU1tISromgsWaujmPWb5Ine6TmlVqlyzh65DbsZgYl5qbPXaUbs8sNR8okfpzvZ5+AikG0wan5EOXQtAqbFPApj30rObpDHQHioKUflyl14SyiNm92FpRxE61ATLP9wEBWKmGskl6kuHkwUPbiRIlgvvN85yWh23wjyo4oqoU5vs1T+GjkGoRA9/C0nutojujUOKofA1l6oHw5zeimSqA9mSwsU59jqYsAWYlwT8bvTuihNzzKdj7J8JDNRK9YTiSiWFSGGJtTQOp6azTSb4wL6ohohVHUYzSbLkRvk6Wu9cHocGZwlMwQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=futurewei.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=futurewei.com; dkim=pass header.d=futurewei.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=Futurewei.com; s=selector2; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=aACSZdTFuIkGjRyWm/TIGBbbE9AaKQOb4/ol6+M40ec=; b=e8bWUkDkvz97On2uTpmvrSs+VAHsZcEAP99SYHi+xRTXEjKBAa07Nv/SRPZizfkwVnnvNYKJE2zGHAYyUdVykdb0nf+qabPAi1A5NJ7iZ1HvZ/W/8/WWTHHHeSWEVb70AFnxlXkh5J9F2TY7azAPczLZ78liNAG6s7gFVT71JAo= Received: from DM6PR13MB3066.namprd13.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:5:19d::18) by DM6PR13MB3921.namprd13.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:5:2a1::24) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2793.5; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:08:53 +0000 Received: from DM6PR13MB3066.namprd13.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::ad27:afcc:1220:dc84]) by DM6PR13MB3066.namprd13.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::ad27:afcc:1220:dc84%7]) with mapi id 15.20.2772.018; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:08:53 +0000 From: James Guichard To: Robert Raszuk CC: Sander Steffann , "Wang, Weibin (NSB - CN/Shanghai)" , SPRING WG List , 6man WG , Andrew Alston Thread-Topic: [spring] RFC8200 update? 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Bowers CC: "lsr@ietf.org" , SPRING WG List , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming , "Peter Psenak (ppsenak)" Thread-Topic: [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions Thread-Index: AQHV7ZILnZjIpKq3N0WdLR4BCssnCqgwFDqggAA7KhCAABElwIAASL5A Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:23:56 +0000 Message-ID: <7453_1582899837_5E59227C_7453_80_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD14BA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <12659_1582880639_5E58D77F_12659_66_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DCA80D@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.245] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD14BAOPEXCAUBM43corp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] [Lsr] clarification of locator block and locator node in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and draft-ietf-lsr-isis-srv6-extensions X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:24:02 -0000 --_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD14BAOPEXCAUBM43corp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgS2V0YW4sDQoNClRoYW5rcyBmb3J0IHRoZSBmb2xsb3cgdXAuDQpDbGFyaWZpY2F0aW9uIGlu bGluZSBbQnJ1bm9dDQoNCkZyb206IEtldGFuIFRhbGF1bGlrYXIgKGtldGFudCkgW21haWx0bzpr ZXRhbnRAY2lzY28uY29tXQ0KU2VudDogRnJpZGF5LCBGZWJydWFyeSAyOCwgMjAyMCAxMToxMSBB TQ0KVG86IERFQ1JBRU5FIEJydW5vIFRHSS9PTE47IEtldGFuIFRhbGF1bGlrYXIgKGtldGFudCk7 IENocmlzIEJvd2Vycw0KQ2M6IGxzckBpZXRmLm9yZzsgU1BSSU5HIFdHIExpc3Q7IGRyYWZ0LWll dGYtc3ByaW5nLXNydjYtbmV0d29yay1wcm9ncmFtbWluZzsgUGV0ZXIgUHNlbmFrIChwcHNlbmFr 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Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:49:47 -0000 --_000_8219A80854524FEA8470E7FD48749064junipernet_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgS2V0YW4sDQoNCkFwcm9wb3MgY29udGVudCBkZWxpdmVyeSwgZmFpciBlbm91Z2gsIHRoYW5r cy4gKEFuZCB5ZXMsIEkgZGlkIGFjdHVhbGx5IGxvb2sgYXQgRGFu4oCZcyBzY2VuYXJpbywgd2h5 IHdvdWxkIHlvdSBpbXBseSBJIGhhZG7igJl0PykNCg0KRG9lcyB0aGlzIG1vb3QgdGhlIHBvaW50 IGFib3V0IHRoZSBpbnV0aWxpdHkgb2Ygcm91dGVycyB0aGF0IGFyZSBvbmx5IGFibGUgdG8gc2Vy dmUgYXMgYW4gU1IgdGFpbCBlbmQgYnV0IG5vdCBoZWFkIGVuZD8gSeKAmW0gd2lsbGluZyB0byBz dGlwdWxhdGUgdGhhdCBpdCBkb2VzLiBEb2VzIGl0IG1vb3QgdGhlIGZpbmFsIHF1ZXN0aW9uIGFi 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138dbc05-d30c-43d9-9f87-08d7bc64d8cf X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 28 Feb 2020 15:42:41.4812 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: A/orQTpDgTFGB0Ui9y7mF5WoTfOUEsXSKLwRvJeMRZAbX8Q/Io5ljT0XHg4iMXy9L3NBOdch0537U0XXaAdl/Q== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR05MB6698 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.138, 18.0.572 definitions=2020-02-28_04:2020-02-28, 2020-02-28 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 mlxlogscore=999 impostorscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 priorityscore=1501 adultscore=0 clxscore=1015 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2001150001 definitions=main-2002280124 Archived-At: Subject: [spring] Progressing draft-ietf-spring-network-programming: Finding a compromise X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 15:42:49 -0000 --_000_DM6PR05MB6348247DCDC7B7AC3ECACCAEAEE80DM6PR05MB6348namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Folks, I think that it is time to find a compromised regarding draft-ietf-spring-= network-programming. How does the following sound: * Pablo removes Section 4.16 and all references to PSP from draft-ietf= -spring-network-programming and puts all of that content into another draft * The WG progresses draft-ietf-spring-network-programming * I will produce a document that updates The Devil's Paragraph, as desc= ribed in https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/Xm2RTBm-Hh_ZVUa5El4To1z= opSg/. The draft will allow removal of the RH, but only when Segments Left = equals zero and when that action was requested by the source node as in htt= ps://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/cXpzCLOVQ1OOUPGU13ZNnQWDVIA/. * When that draft progresses, Pablo's PSP draft can progress * Until then, vendors can ship whatever they want (since they are shipp= ing already). I would by happy to produce a first draft of the document that updates 8200= . = Ron Juniper Business Use Only --_000_DM6PR05MB6348247DCDC7B7AC3ECACCAEAEE80DM6PR05MB6348namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Folks,

 

I think that it is time to find a compromised regard= ing  draft-ietf-spring-network-programming. How does the following sou= nd:

 

  • Pablo removes Section 4.16 and all references to PSP from  draft= -ietf-spring-network-programming and puts all of that content into another = draft
  • The WG progresses  draft-ietf-spring-networ= k-programming
  • I will produce a document that updates T= he Devil’s Paragraph, as described in https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/Xm2RTBm-Hh_ZVUa5El4To1zopSg/= . The draft will allow removal of the RH, but only when Segments Left equal= s zero and when that action was requested by the source node as in https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/cXpzCLOVQ1OOUPGU13ZNnQWDVIA/= .
  • When that draft progresses, Pablo’s PSP draft = can progress
  • Until then, vendors can ship whatever the= y want (since they are shipping already).

 

I would by happy to produce a first draft of the doc= ument that updates 8200.

 

        &nbs= p;             =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =    Ron

 


Juniper Business= Use Only

--_000_DM6PR05MB6348247DCDC7B7AC3ECACCAEAEE80DM6PR05MB6348namp_-- From nobody Fri Feb 28 07:50:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9BFE3A19FA for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 07:50:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aU6ywDyM9g2r for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 07:50:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ed1-x52d.google.com (mail-ed1-x52d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4AF013A0B79 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 07:50:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ed1-x52d.google.com with SMTP id h62so1938078edd.12 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 07:50:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herbertland-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=BWElaaJNnS6uWxi4g6P/31GHElZh3vvG/YALVId10nM=; b=vvDjLyQAa9IGB7pB0oUupxe9syxXuoRXRZuexZ3bWEsy5eV7quwm6w7/D6wblKGX1L 8y6iEsCVkjIlz/WlyMp3W8OtH3R/6iALBAzImAUHcQHGWRN3pbujwV8WuOGwDyppnHM9 TekJ0/8op6Dd78p+lOBdQKT13obEzEN4rdcyMOQtFptcGpKZRxFBoKucG4vmALYZAWPv vWc2JdqlDDc3WHF/wlKHaP4k+wJ4cPGHmsLpB29i/xBzwM/JVelVxBPftXyZUGGibwaf wlu5uXccdxR1uekqBwxlfzOucKteS5ckZr+W53N3qzpsRJA0oNbUVlkML+RH6/TZbGZm +jug== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=BWElaaJNnS6uWxi4g6P/31GHElZh3vvG/YALVId10nM=; b=eOn3a+HRWETBWIwIvMIL6PZ+pLJLS4rD5jlI21YXxez+uvQwrvjGt4C9PCNB584csH nJgRY5fblrRjqTEBiL7HzfVOj3jEFghEScgAQdM9lvhNwVVXzst2vaaSfQQT703M6+iI x2TntDt87vJ67iJm8iiDG+NwilOn+eJlx8A9nnpEFc8LFjkuXaKtAegbdrBx2BIO1q7f OAV4u+tEK8JtEQ28uqdcDCewHEnfL75M5UpmrOSSKDA4YD559XYwUB71OF3z3lXvBjwn B3fgA2HaN/pp8+F4Ld3/tjdfPtliXcgmYEnMLKH01HiK7mpBa7/Er7PpXc0piIdqyhtR 5JkA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUUsvltFeyyYqFtqEz3Puugme9nOQSVlDKyIF/PrZLslKze/rsj jiq39fOwQJsy9poq+POEnmT3dmwisTQuzSGqB1KbDQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxRp2jlB5meIMjBWp658LVSzD6t30KTYtaUsY14GFF00hrBHjb9akvd8U7gbfV6bbJwHuw6a6OFtjUEAkEXogA= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:4b10:: with SMTP id y16mr4740060eju.304.1582905034633; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 07:50:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Tom Herbert Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 07:50:23 -0800 Message-ID: To: Sander Steffann Cc: SPRING WG List , 6man WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] RFC8200 update? X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 15:50:40 -0000 On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 4:03 AM Sander Steffann wrote: > > Hi, > > I have been thinking about SRv6 and the whole discussion around header re= moval at one of the SR nodes. While I strongly see the current network prog= ramming PSP function as a violation of RFC8200, one of the possible options= is of course to update RFC8200 to allow some things that are currently not= allowed. > > Before you start throwing rotten tomatoes, hear me out :) > > The most important argument against modifying a packet between the sender= and the final receiver is that it can cause surprises for the sender. ICMP= errors getting back to the sender about stuff the sender didn't do, pMTUd = problems etc. And I think this is a very strong argument, and we shouldn't = cause any surprises for the sender. > > But, what if the sender *asks* the network to do things to its packets? L= ike in network programming. If the sender asks to have the network perform = a certain function, it can't come as a surprise when it gets an ICMP error = after the packet has been modified. It asked for that modification itself! = And with that in mind, we might actually allow much more than just header r= emoval in the network. > Sander, Please take a look at draft-herbert-6man-eh-attrib-00, I think it is very much in line with what you're thinking. The basic idea is that we create a new "Attribution" Hop-by-Hop option. The option serves two purposes: 1) If the source host sets the option in a packet then it is giving permission to intermediate nodes to insert extensions headers (and Hop-by-Hop options which need to be handled specially). Presumably, when the source includes the option it is capable of dealing with ICMP errors with inserted extension headers. 2) The option indicates the extension headers (and Hop-by-Hop options) that have been inserted by intermediate nodes. So it's modified by intermediate nodes when insertion happens. The effect is that for any given packet at any time it is clear which data is attributed to the source node, and which is attributed to intermediate nodes. The option would also allow intermediate nodes to remove inserted headers (ones attributed to intermediate nodes) Receiver handling of inserted headers needs to be considered. For making AH work, it would be straightforward simply not include any inserted headers in the computation, the necessary information to do that is in the HBH option. In this case, the option can't be ignored so second high order bit of option type would need to be set. If AH isn't present, I believe the HBH option could safely be ignored if unknown at the receiver. Other than AH, I don't see any other cases where ignoring the HBH option and processing inserted options leads to incorrect behavior (if there are possible cases please point them out). Tom > What if we update RFC8200 to allow packet manipulation in the network if = and only if the sender of the packet explicitly asked for that? That would = open the door for a whole range of innovation (PSP, WAN optimisation, paylo= ad compression etc), but only when requested. If the sender explicitly incl= udes network programming instructions then there is no need anymore to forb= id the execution of those instructions. No surprises, the possibility of sm= arts in the network, while still preserving the current semantics of an end= -to-end network by default with strong rules about not messing with the pac= ket. > > Would this be a way forward that would accommodate everyones requirements= ? > > Cheers, > Sander > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Fri Feb 28 08:03:46 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 923FC3A1B05; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:03:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=joelhalpern.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rDajBmembelO; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:03:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 950313A1B07; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:03:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48TZ8L2CsKz6GBSZ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:03:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=joelhalpern.com; s=2.tigertech; t=1582905810; bh=xVWVwYXv4L2y0paVpxWWDPTLWl1GUFCAVv9d3taLpyk=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=U2PdvgbDDcwdUqoGP4ZTmh+eTB+KXkTxa9z9Y20bwE+Am9L3jbOClOJmQfhsvuF3i gpYVr9ikrcj4qcigESy7juFwfeIvF6wWd8xHok9xQi50jc0IMSq04tjzBu2xFRARgA HiOAmtMZ+npGG623y6vkJ+4bX69IbHPhyYi3e2hQ= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [10.47.230.149] (unknown [213.50.241.180]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 48TZ8J4pSJz6G7n0; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:03:28 -0800 (PST) To: Robert Raszuk , John Scudder Cc: SPRING WG , 6man WG References: <158248836511.1031.1350509839394231473@ietfa.amsl.com> <7481061F-75A5-4E4D-80AE-40E1F933E94A@cisco.com> <1BB7ED35-98EC-4A73-92A3-AD043D462CF7@steffann.nl> <97141983-EDF7-4C1E-A8F1-4ADCD345BC5A@cisco.com> <470E6DF4-0EF8-4EC8-8F84-1D5C84CEC5B9@juniper.net> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 11:03:26 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 16:03:39 -0000 While it is true that some traffic only needs steering in one direction, I have real trouble figuring out how an operator would dare deploy an SR edge device that could not steer incoming traffic. Either they do not need SR, or they can expect that some traffic will need it in both directions. So I am left supporting John's contention that there seems to be a gap in how one would used the hypothesized device that needs another device performing PSP. also, and edge device that requires PSP would place constraints on the SRv6 traffic paths that could be used be used to it. One would have to ensure that all SRv6 traffic ending there had a penultimate explicit hop to a device that could perform PSP. Yes, this can be done. It does seem to complicate life. Thus, yet another way that PSP adds complications. Yours, Joel On 2/28/2020 5:55 AM, Robert Raszuk wrote: > Hi John, > > > I have an additional observation, or question, about Dan’s scenario. > Almost all communication is bidirectional. > > Presumably this means a router that’s the tail end of an SRv6 path in > one direction is the head end in the other. > > While your observation is correct that most TCP connections are bidir SR > in a lot of cases can operate only in one direction. Needless to say it > can also be used with UDP streaming. > > To extend Ketan's OTT video example let me observe that in a lot of > transactions queries from clients are tiny and do not TE > capabilities while responses are huge and bursty and may indeed benefit > from special handling. > > Sure if you think of applications like VPNs than you are right .. > regardless of the size of the packets proper tagging must occur in > either direction - but this is just one use of SRv6 perhaps not even the > major one. > > - - - > > Now as one friend just asked me offline - putting all IPv6 dogmas aside > - what is the technical issue with removing previously applied extension > header from the packet within a given operator's network ? What breaks > when you do that ? > > Thx, > R. > > > On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 10:11 PM John Scudder > > > wrote: > > I have an additional observation, or question, about Dan’s > scenario.. Almost all communication is bidirectional. Presumably > this means a router that’s the tail end of an SRv6 path in one > direction is the head end in the other. Doesn’t a head end need to > add an SRH? If I’ve gotten that right, then we can extend Ron’s list > with one more item. That is, apparently the ultimate segment endpoint: > > • Can process a SID, received as an IPv6 DA, on the fast path > • Cannot process an SRH on receipt, even if Segments Left equal 0, > on the fast path. > • Can add an SRH on transmission, on the fast path > > Even though strictly speaking the second and third bullet points > aren’t mutually exclusive, it’s a little difficult to imagine a real > router that would have both these properties simultaneously. Perhaps > I’m not being creative enough in imagining deployment scenarios? > Since this scenario is claimed as an important reason this > problematic feature is needed, it would be great if someone who > understands it would elucidate, thanks. > > One further point, Ron says “I wonder whether it is a good idea to > stretch the IPv6 standard to accommodate IPv6-challenged devices.†I > also wonder this, especially because these devices will have a > relatively limited lifetime in the network.[*] I don’t find the > cost/benefit attractive of making a permanent detrimental change to > the IPv6 architecture to accommodate a temporary deployment issue. > > Regards, > > —John > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > From nobody Fri Feb 28 08:04:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAFC43A1AE6; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:04:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=steffann.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O_nA9e0m9Avg; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:04:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sintact.nl (mail.sintact.nl [83.247.10.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 21C133A1B28; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:04:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8970849; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 17:04:21 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=steffann.nl; h= x-mailer:references:in-reply-to:date:date:subject:subject :mime-version:content-type:content-type:message-id:from:from :received:received; s=mail; t=1582905859; bh=38mgndnxPmi0p1bkHh4 DFjWxdhMuR9ihDG3/N5hxpnk=; b=FxQXhy6ejILJlB1Zhrt7XS58bEpF5PqZC/Z 5DZThDH9Krh+i34P/ioB+e75MMVhfGZevWkOOnnHHMNQXvdErUYdgJjXndy+4TWG goaDPYFlkUgthYH7R58ITBl57XZNzAXeN+47Hb87n+opfgh4pNszeUfN8HJKo4VB 4kwEozbY= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.sintact.nl Received: from mail.sintact.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.sintact.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id iOOZhJwU7GHk; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 17:04:19 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:d99f:7257:bc1b:f895] (unknown [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:d99f:7257:bc1b:f895]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2FD533C; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 17:04:19 +0100 (CET) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann Message-Id: <305F6F9B-C3C5-493A-990C-DC94A5BE1065@steffann.nl> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_344B6170-0FAD-478F-BF06-4A444D9B8BC0"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3594.4.19\)) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 17:04:17 +0100 In-Reply-To: Cc: SPRING WG List , 6man WG To: Tom Herbert References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3594.4.19) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] RFC8200 update? X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 16:04:37 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_344B6170-0FAD-478F-BF06-4A444D9B8BC0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, > Please take a look at draft-herbert-6man-eh-attrib-00, I think it is > very much in line with what you're thinking. >=20 > The basic idea is that we create a new "Attribution" Hop-by-Hop > option. The option serves two purposes: >=20 > 1) If the source host sets the option in a packet then it is giving > permission to intermediate nodes to insert extensions headers (and > Hop-by-Hop options which need to be handled specially). Presumably, > when the source includes the option it is capable of dealing with ICMP > errors with inserted extension headers. > 2) The option indicates the extension headers (and Hop-by-Hop options) > that have been inserted by intermediate nodes. So it's modified by > intermediate nodes when insertion happens. The effect is that for any > given packet at any time it is clear which data is attributed to the > source node, and which is attributed to intermediate nodes. >=20 > The option would also allow intermediate nodes to remove inserted > headers (ones attributed to intermediate nodes) I haven't read the draft yet, but that sounds about right :) > Receiver handling of inserted headers needs to be considered. >=20 > For making AH work, it would be straightforward simply not include any > inserted headers in the computation, the necessary information to do > that is in the HBH option. In this case, the option can't be ignored > so second high order bit of option type would need to be set. >=20 > If AH isn't present, I believe the HBH option could safely be ignored > if unknown at the receiver. Other than AH, I don't see any other cases > where ignoring the HBH option and processing inserted options leads to > incorrect behavior (if there are possible cases please point them > out). I think both variants would have to be defined, one with the high order = bit set and one with it unset. When AH is used then the one with the = high order bit set has to be used, in other cases the sender can choose = what is most appropriate for them (probably the other one). Sounds like a way forward! I think something like this HbH option would = be required before SRv6 NP PSP can move forward. Cheers, Sander --Apple-Mail=_344B6170-0FAD-478F-BF06-4A444D9B8BC0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEl13OIanoifT0p8LWWPjdc9pon8sFAl5ZOgEACgkQWPjdc9po n8vLHA/9EGWTzCVv4ytPQ04gDH2UIHx6c4f5iMSkzOgB/K6OyWPdDKGzdkdVbeem ieAglQz1ZMxCLxWuOUA7J6+lpPKE2HFXTbV2qIgj+YfotAG3kigjWtpbJ01wn0WE JWUfthHGyfxcKwQ9mZGetocMpP3Jp4G/yPrl2EO79lEj2XwOKqac9IKPkyCkw60a o5YtCICCVdK3+drcm4lwFD4pPFR5wiBbd7X+w5iON9aYFOKJBOy9MkuycizylMK0 lfXJZAT5eEmHoo87is35czJqsbjSEjUbYaaaMaa6IvH84RpPBR15SgpHLy5WcIOg IM5blmpl7r3ZulQGALXhyeSV7il+GuEPEMYPQzLiqp38aRlcG6Fb8JVUvViD9Sh5 EbMV6cCSJAH5eY7F+Cmze2StAKbQzPHCqllk2KVsVmq2kl+QJNPlYHy6J/mCoUmm AkuurRd4s1ZtdaN+fnlURAV1jhf8wU9eBddgG2Cee3ooaTV2vpoLrXPz2KHI2hY+ 0Crx7qMfH/jzo4QYDoGeGO4ri8oST96qphoweTM0W2CgMhr5XRn7I/pPF6RsyEzX awcDDtFcNJeixjsIX/Ipge53zjM0XfuJqWR2PqbkH8nlIUv/6v9tpFzLthorJsNC cUUJEGBk9gdX9i4di9sQ9UszgS0zxQCzUXEUC+ME/B/azs3OV3o= =J3O5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_344B6170-0FAD-478F-BF06-4A444D9B8BC0-- From nobody Fri Feb 28 08:04:51 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11D2D3A1AE3 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:04:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n8-z5Z1TTbaf for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:04:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x334.google.com (mail-ot1-x334.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::334]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1D8273A1AF7 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:04:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x334.google.com with SMTP id r16so3055122otd.2 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:04:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=5EjVyDEyWBx/yixkRlaYUeVDLhryNclmmJPs9BOxoWo=; b=F35LMdxAjMiRvvMx1Y64nNvSBVaAnBNN0/aimAa3nzYp0vuoHCoV+CMV2oWEgsLVSJ jJoIPa9G+JDqsuXYAKCw+KA9YDAkVbbTcaQpAuY8+qhO0ER0BLy3EFIyUeYOGChwZnQN NNDuGynQAI9nGiwvFmQRnXX7EXPX3kTP7WHXt/ZmRD1VCnsjFnZEz/lDpvvLGQGpuJUS XH+H2o+ptYZ92p77Ha6736KV/MeKc3XJ4Ny07r0sQYy1Z3FBCZ5gTXDtAM/CZTjUqy+w hSpz1gD3xqCDVZiea/iTAufyoBZ+6hIayXtbJ69Q+RJxFlSLm1vdPB4JiexVaJZkp7Tr 5Suw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5EjVyDEyWBx/yixkRlaYUeVDLhryNclmmJPs9BOxoWo=; b=E4VeJNJRYyBOZIjmoIQ/lFBDPFk4Jjbutzag0rpCBgE1PT2Yqu6qMecp2MIqEL0Cmi gGbyVNXcz2tquouqrX73MOFrEhmzCtYM+mmaArr27F3T70R56XitGWt7XjQlzIlFlALO SCk6eSglLBnjt/L7TwV7+voET8ZqVlr2v4H3Zn2N9/6+surjSlFdzRQnJEpLpsrgo6zI manrneuNKRRpaQYevRkdCLKMQU6GaSt7lIJ45XSu1q+6T/+sDZaCSx4T5Khv9PbMyyLz w8p8zNjJGmCDY8lHKGoHACAIsVGQ8hmZJ5Si59F7ooS682VR/ysR11l3oqYonnNgBmw+ fjGg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUJdEOhjqJzpyvvqNV/HNFJ9GSnulrjYNbWmaMQd221LaHCHhgR 5bnSIqmj6w7bp7haGs0ASFElDrwuQSDfRtA4NdEGB7faKnw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwLzWC+y1DoyIN8EAajy7dqSE9QN8y7Uya3Ts4O/o48A2VKh1dWgCPf+gMEShbXNzzhYOtnQNDDm8IJUpyopww= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:6a06:: with SMTP id g6mr3644195otn.305.1582905876310; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:04:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 17:04:22 +0100 Message-ID: To: Ron Bonica Cc: SPRING WG List , 6man WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000787df1059fa4fe72" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Progressing draft-ietf-spring-network-programming: Finding a compromise X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 16:04:46 -0000 --000000000000787df1059fa4fe72 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Ron, I love your definition of "compromise": "You do what we tell you to do". Is this PSP removal crusade targeted to buy more time by making PSP illegal till undefined future ? Compromise in my books here would be to make PSP optional - but wait as stated already this is already optional today ! Node signals zero SIDs for PSP and it is no longer the problem for the node. Can you please at least one admit what real technical problem we are facing here with PSP ? Many thx, R. On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 4:43 PM Ron Bonica wrote: > Folks, > > > > I think that it is time to find a compromised regarding > draft-ietf-spring-network-programming. How does the following sound: > > > > - Pablo removes Section 4.16 and all references to PSP from > draft-ietf-spring-network-programming and puts all of that content in= to > another draft > - The WG progresses draft-ietf-spring-network-programming > - I will produce a document that updates The Devil=E2=80=99s Paragraph= , as > described in > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/Xm2RTBm-Hh_ZVUa5El4To1zopSg= /.. > The draft will allow removal of the RH, but only when Segments Left eq= uals > zero and when that action was requested by the source node as in > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/cXpzCLOVQ1OOUPGU13ZNnQWDVIA= / > .. > - When that draft progresses, Pablo=E2=80=99s PSP draft can progress > - Until then, vendors can ship whatever they want (since they are > shipping already). > > > > I would by happy to produce a first draft of the document that updates > 8200. > > > > > = Ron > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --000000000000787df1059fa4fe72 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Ron,=C2=A0

I love your definition = of "compromise": "You do what we tell you to do".=C2=A0=

Is this PSP removal crusade targeted to buy more = time by making PSP illegal till undefined future ?=C2=A0

Compromise in my books here would be to make PSP optional - but wait= as stated already this is already optional today ! Node signals zero SIDs = for PSP and it is no longer the problem for the node.=C2=A0

<= /div>
Can you please at least one admit what real technical problem we = are facing here with PSP ?=C2=A0

Many thx,
R.


On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 4:43 PM Ron Bonica <rb= onica=3D40juniper.net@dmarc= .ietf.org> wrote:

Folks,

=C2=A0

I think that it is time to find a compromised regard= ing =C2=A0draft-ietf-spring-network-programming. How does the following sou= nd:

=C2=A0

  • Pablo removes Section 4.16 and all references= to PSP from =C2=A0draft-ietf-spring-network-programming and puts all of th= at content into another draft
  • The WG progresses =C2=A0draft-ietf-spring-network-programming<= /u>
  • I will produce a document that update= s The Devil=E2=80=99s Paragraph, as described in https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/Xm2RTBm-Hh_ZVUa5El4To1zopSg/= .. The draft will allow removal of the RH, but only when Segments Left equa= ls zero and when that action was requested by the source node as in https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/cXpzCLOVQ1OOUPGU13ZNnQWDVIA/= ..
  • When that draft progress= es, Pablo=E2=80=99s PSP draft can progress
  • Until then, vendors can ship whatever they want (since they= are shipping already).

=C2=A0

I would by happy to produce a first draft of the doc= ument that updates 8200.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Ron

=C2=A0


Juniper Business Use Only

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--000000000000787df1059fa4fe72-- From nobody Fri Feb 28 08:13:09 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 565793A1A96 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:12:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EeCAltVtvcH2 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:12:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x334.google.com (mail-ot1-x334.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::334]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EDD063A1B00 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:12:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x334.google.com with SMTP id j20so3076042otq.3 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:12:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=yOcfOxVseuLz16bkavryQeX3+HbiP+mGUOe4QtsJYhQ=; b=S8oGYaqGUptFuauq+bYH5jbrym83SVvygyxhqVIvaX/CYFPf/m/4XxVPZfyWy4KgLg UyZlXW1ZgzSodE3A1KpDxy+ZP1b0oSj9NHYjphkpuYf4Lo0f2ExdRdUtnZqb1JG8hPY1 tcbCYg8x1RAyyWVDFBVnjp2K3GmUjH3rNNuOI71Q3hQggNGeDiBpD35dp5xolBZ96NMh /fTdfIkFgy7wLyKjHRsjfaWKqfv5DZt+qThKw5w5LzR1LfgbA1l4140A/bXVU5sPSPXI 1maaS8JP3NFJIY+T8YYfMwVK4tWHoNR70LtSx8dcmzjkn9/E/NcjqXIdDQ8dpC1ZxFM8 Q+bQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=yOcfOxVseuLz16bkavryQeX3+HbiP+mGUOe4QtsJYhQ=; b=DqS9gXzhHj5N4M+TOBPKrR5ReOSVGUmqBQcqS1wPckR7rtp0B5/H88oc5rq+bJYOy/ lQGrXpr0bCdajceJQSmhiDol6hHFLrItz5i6NhzNr81bN7jFPA9YeIGNYNL7NWDqXGtM 7k4+Dd1qv0FZ8x62fsXcGKe1hiAIbp6jCe2mOZ3O37Zdffwqyr58Ldkvkng52vqfCpEA UIJgsPy0gCimYHU6UWWueVBltoCb6KllTU32+ufccbmhSfbUS0PI9RDiDReq6htA5ZqI MUCFhqoCaV3l8HVU602ySsvW0mkXTqWphsdJ0KbCk1zfJgZx2S5v+M2hwQ4Fvumvt45k KWFA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWQi0mgH1VdnxlKXHB5emOJZTc66zWvtbBA+Ulk22R91tkzLmr7 h1+iZZK1i/+ZlulIyd+FZNV/jrWzrSD8Rgu2za2Uuw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxO5wcui89R/QqheuMPViCatvjQIAURhHn2xyNbVuNUlcVXYiBxLuxoNn3VgZ/n+wkzG6g2p00y8J7dx9JLDag= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:160c:: with SMTP id g12mr3881215otr.82.1582906369250; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:12:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <158248836511.1031.1350509839394231473@ietfa.amsl.com> <7481061F-75A5-4E4D-80AE-40E1F933E94A@cisco.com> <1BB7ED35-98EC-4A73-92A3-AD043D462CF7@steffann.nl> <97141983-EDF7-4C1E-A8F1-4ADCD345BC5A@cisco.com> <470E6DF4-0EF8-4EC8-8F84-1D5C84CEC5B9@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 17:12:35 +0100 Message-ID: To: "Joel M. Halpern" Cc: John Scudder , SPRING WG , 6man WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000da2c36059fa51b70" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 16:13:00 -0000 --000000000000da2c36059fa51b70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Joel, Let me observe that as it has been said already such end device may support SR but SRH above say N SIDs is handled only in slow path. In the same time let me observe that while slow path may be just fine for a lot of time such device also is to receive 5 well engineered high bandwidth streams. So only for those 5 streams it is required to do PSP. IMO this is good enough reason to support it. Thx, R. On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 5:03 PM Joel M. Halpern wrote= : > While it is true that some traffic only needs steering in one direction, > I have real trouble figuring out how an operator would dare deploy an SR > edge device that could not steer incoming traffic. Either they do not > need SR, or they can expect that some traffic will need it in both > directions. So I am left supporting John's contention that there seems > to be a gap in how one would used the hypothesized device that needs > another device performing PSP. > > also, and edge device that requires PSP would place constraints on the > SRv6 traffic paths that could be used be used to it. One would have to > ensure that all SRv6 traffic ending there had a penultimate explicit hop > to a device that could perform PSP. Yes, this can be done. It does > seem to complicate life. Thus, yet another way that PSP adds > complications. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 2/28/2020 5:55 AM, Robert Raszuk wrote: > > Hi John, > > > > > I have an additional observation, or question, about Dan=E2=80=99s s= cenario. > > Almost all communication is bidirectional. > > > Presumably this means a router that=E2=80=99s the tail end of an SRv= 6 path in > > one direction is the head end in the other. > > > > While your observation is correct that most TCP connections are bidir S= R > > in a lot of cases can operate only in one direction. Needless to say it > > can also be used with UDP streaming. > > > > To extend Ketan's OTT video example let me observe that in a lot of > > transactions queries from clients are tiny and do not TE > > capabilities while responses are huge and bursty and may indeed benefit > > from special handling. > > > > Sure if you think of applications like VPNs than you are right .. > > regardless of the size of the packets proper tagging must occur in > > either direction - but this is just one use of SRv6 perhaps not even th= e > > major one. > > > > - - - > > > > Now as one friend just asked me offline - putting all IPv6 dogmas aside > > - what is the technical issue with removing previously applied extensio= n > > header from the packet within a given operator's network ? What breaks > > when you do that ? > > > > Thx, > > R. > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 10:11 PM John Scudder > > > > > > wrote: > > > > I have an additional observation, or question, about Dan=E2=80=99s > > scenario.. Almost all communication is bidirectional. Presumably > > this means a router that=E2=80=99s the tail end of an SRv6 path in = one > > direction is the head end in the other. Doesn=E2=80=99t a head end = need to > > add an SRH? If I=E2=80=99ve gotten that right, then we can extend R= on=E2=80=99s list > > with one more item. That is, apparently the ultimate segment > endpoint: > > > > =E2=80=A2 Can process a SID, received as an IPv6 DA, on the fast pa= th > > =E2=80=A2 Cannot process an SRH on receipt, even if Segments Left e= qual 0, > > on the fast path. > > =E2=80=A2 Can add an SRH on transmission, on the fast path > > > > Even though strictly speaking the second and third bullet points > > aren=E2=80=99t mutually exclusive, it=E2=80=99s a little difficult = to imagine a real > > router that would have both these properties simultaneously. Perhap= s > > I=E2=80=99m not being creative enough in imagining deployment scena= rios? > > Since this scenario is claimed as an important reason this > > problematic feature is needed, it would be great if someone who > > understands it would elucidate, thanks. > > > > One further point, Ron says =E2=80=9CI wonder whether it is a good = idea to > > stretch the IPv6 standard to accommodate IPv6-challenged devices.= =E2=80=9D I > > also wonder this, especially because these devices will have a > > relatively limited lifetime in the network.[*] I don=E2=80=99t find= the > > cost/benefit attractive of making a permanent detrimental change to > > the IPv6 architecture to accommodate a temporary deployment issue. > > > > Regards, > > > > =E2=80=94John > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > ipv6@ietf.org > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > --000000000000da2c36059fa51b70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Joel,

Let me observe that as it has bee= n said already such end device may support SR but SRH above say N SIDs is h= andled only in slow path.=C2=A0

In the same time l= et me observe that while slow path may be just fine for a lot of=C2=A0time = such device also is to receive 5 well engineered high bandwidth=C2=A0stream= s. So only for those 5 streams it is required to do PSP.=C2=A0
IMO this is good enough reason to support it.=C2=A0
=
Thx,
R.

=
On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 5:03 PM Joel = M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
Wh= ile it is true that some traffic only needs steering in one direction,
I have real trouble figuring out how an operator would dare deploy an SR edge device that could not steer incoming traffic.=C2=A0 Either they do not=
need SR, or they can expect that some traffic will need it in both
directions.=C2=A0 So I am left supporting John's contention that there = seems
to be a gap in how one would used the hypothesized device that needs
another device performing PSP.

also, and edge device that requires PSP would place constraints on the
SRv6 traffic paths that could be used be used to it.=C2=A0 One would have t= o
ensure that all SRv6 traffic ending there had a penultimate explicit hop to a device that could perform PSP.=C2=A0 Yes, this can be done.=C2=A0 It d= oes
seem to complicate life.=C2=A0 Thus, yet another way that PSP adds complica= tions.

Yours,
Joel

On 2/28/2020 5:55 AM, Robert Raszuk wrote:
> Hi John,
>
>=C2=A0 > I have an additional observation, or question, about Dan=E2= =80=99s scenario.
> Almost all communication is bidirectional.
>=C2=A0 > Presumably this means a router that=E2=80=99s the tail end = of an SRv6 path in
> one direction is the head end in the other.
>
> While your observation is correct that most TCP connections are bidir = SR
> in a lot of cases can operate only in one direction. Needless to say i= t
> can also be used with UDP streaming.
>
> To extend Ketan's OTT video example let me observe that in a lot o= f
> transactions queries from clients are tiny and do not TE
> capabilities=C2=A0while responses are huge and bursty=C2=A0and may ind= eed benefit
> from special handling.
>
> Sure if you think of applications like VPNs than you are right ..
> regardless of the size of the packets proper tagging must occur in > either direction - but this is just one use of SRv6 perhaps not even t= he
> major one.
>
> - - -
>
> Now as one friend just asked me offline - putting all IPv6 dogmas asid= e
> - what is the technical issue with removing previously applied extensi= on
> header from the packet within a given operator's network ? What br= eaks
> when you do that ?
>
> Thx,
> R.
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 10:11 PM John Scudder
> <jgs=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org <mailto:40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org&g= t;>
> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I have an additional observation, or question, abou= t Dan=E2=80=99s
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0scenario.. Almost all communication is bidirectiona= l. Presumably
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this means a router that=E2=80=99s the tail end of = an SRv6 path in one
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0direction is the head end in the other. Doesn=E2=80= =99t a head end need to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0add an SRH? If I=E2=80=99ve gotten that right, then= we can extend Ron=E2=80=99s list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0with one more item. That is, apparently the ultimat= e segment endpoint:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=A2 Can process a SID, received as an IPv6 DA= , on the fast path
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=A2 Cannot process an SRH on receipt, even if= Segments Left equal 0,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0on the fast path.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=A2 Can add an SRH on transmission, on the fa= st path
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Even though strictly speaking the second and third = bullet points
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0aren=E2=80=99t mutually exclusive, it=E2=80=99s a l= ittle difficult to imagine a real
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0router that would have both these properties simult= aneously. Perhaps
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I=E2=80=99m not being creative enough in imagining = deployment scenarios?
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Since this scenario is claimed as an important reas= on this
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0problematic feature is needed, it would be great if= someone who
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0understands it would elucidate, thanks.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0One further point, Ron says =E2=80=9CI wonder wheth= er it is a good idea to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0stretch the IPv6 standard to accommodate IPv6-chall= enged devices.=E2=80=9D I
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0also wonder this, especially because these devices = will have a
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0relatively limited lifetime in the network.[*] I do= n=E2=80=99t find the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0cost/benefit attractive of making a permanent detri= mental change to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the IPv6 architecture to accommodate a temporary de= ployment issue.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Regards,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=94John
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman= /listinfo/ipv6
> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >
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Fri, 28 Feb 2020 16:21:56 +0000 From: Ron Bonica To: Robert Raszuk CC: SPRING WG List , 6man WG Thread-Topic: [spring] Progressing draft-ietf-spring-network-programming: Finding a compromise Thread-Index: AdXuTGuyxS/Vft/ETXqU0G6TWb20mQABFG4AAAAR3tA= Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 16:21:56 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Enabled=True; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SiteId=bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Owner=rbonica@juniper.net; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SetDate=2020-02-28T16:21:55.0126001Z; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Name=Juniper Business Use Only; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Application=Microsoft Azure Information Protection; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_ActionId=cddc1783-0ebf-4e83-bd93-829a1402346d; 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boundary="_000_DM6PR05MB63489260DD4B5892240694FFAEE80DM6PR05MB6348namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 36b68465-2b5a-4188-14b7-08d7bc6a5486 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 28 Feb 2020 16:21:56.6053 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: u+s/z351ON33x6TpwRCEIaIgt/4Uppo6sMDyqKf1UJKcd2z9iZj3qpo2/NHYEeiD7nGuffWiGOtA1tc30LchgA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR05MB5659 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.138, 18.0.572 definitions=2020-02-28_05:2020-02-28, 2020-02-28 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 mlxscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 bulkscore=0 impostorscore=0 clxscore=1015 malwarescore=0 priorityscore=1501 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2001150001 definitions=main-2002280130 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Progressing draft-ietf-spring-network-programming: Finding a compromise X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 16:22:04 -0000 --_000_DM6PR05MB63489260DD4B5892240694FFAEE80DM6PR05MB6348namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert, This is not an attempt to buy time until an undefined future. I sincerely b= elieve that: * I can produce a draft that updates RFC 8200 before IETF 107 * The community can progress it by IETF 109 * The vendors can ship what they want until then If you want to make sure that this happens, you can work with me on the dra= ft...... = Ron From: Robert Raszuk Sent: Friday, February 28, 2020 11:04 AM To: Ron Bonica Cc: SPRING WG List ; 6man WG Subject: Re: [spring] Progressing draft-ietf-spring-network-programming: Fi= nding a compromise Dear Ron, I love your definition of "compromise": "You do what we tell you to do". Is this PSP removal crusade targeted to buy more time by making PSP illegal= till undefined future ? Compromise in my books here would be to make PSP optional - but wait as sta= ted already this is already optional today ! Node signals zero SIDs for PSP= and it is no longer the problem for the node. Can you please at least one admit what real technical problem we are facing= here with PSP ? Many thx, R. On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 4:43 PM Ron Bonica > wrote: Folks, I think that it is time to find a compromised regarding draft-ietf-spring-= network-programming. How does the following sound: * Pablo removes Section 4.16 and all references to PSP from draft-ietf= -spring-network-programming and puts all of that content into another draft * The WG progresses draft-ietf-spring-network-programming * I will produce a document that updates The Devil's Paragraph, as desc= ribed in https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/Xm2RTBm-Hh_ZVUa5El4To1z= opSg/... The draft will allow removal of th= e RH, but only when Segments Left equals zero and when that action was requ= ested by the source node as in https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/c= XpzCLOVQ1OOUPGU13ZNnQWDVIA/... * When that draft progresses, Pablo's PSP draft can progress * Until then, vendors can ship whatever they want (since they are shipp= ing already). I would by happy to produce a first draft of the document that updates 8200= . = Ron Juniper Business Use Only _______________________________________________ spring mailing list spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring Juniper Business Use Only --_000_DM6PR05MB63489260DD4B5892240694FFAEE80DM6PR05MB6348namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Robert,

 

This is not an attempt to buy time until an undefine= d future. I sincerely believe that:

 

  • I can produce a draft that updates RFC 8200 before IETF 107
  • The community can progress it by IETF 109
  • = The vendors can ship what they want until then

 

If you want to make sure that this happens, you can = work with me on the draft……

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;       Ron

 

 

 

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>=
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2020 11:04 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Cc: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.or= g>
Subject: Re: [spring] Progressing draft-ietf-spring-network-programm= ing: Finding a compromise

 

Dear Ron, 

 

I love your definition of "compromise": &q= uot;You do what we tell you to do". 

 

Is this PSP removal crusade targeted to buy more tim= e by making PSP illegal till undefined future ? 

 

Compromise in my books here would be to make PSP opt= ional - but wait as stated already this is already optional today ! Node si= gnals zero SIDs for PSP and it is no longer the problem for the node. =

 

Can you please at least one admit what real technica= l problem we are facing here with PSP ? 

 

Many thx,

R.

 

 

On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 4:43 PM Ron Bonica <rboni= ca=3D40juniper.net@dmarc..i= etf.org> wrote:

Folks,

 

I think that it is time to find a compromised regarding  draf= t-ietf-spring-network-programming. How does the following sound:=

 

  • Pablo removes Section 4.16 and all references to PSP from  draft-ietf-= spring-network-programming and puts all of that content into another draft<= o:p>
  • The WG progresses  draft-ietf-spring-network-programming
  • I will produce a document that updates The Devil’s Paragraph, as desc= ribed in https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/Xm2RTBm-Hh_ZVUa5El4To1zopSg/= ... The draft will allow removal of the RH, but only when Segments Left equ= als zero and when that action was requested by the source node as in https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/cXpzCLOVQ1OOUPGU13ZNnQWDVIA/= ...
  • When that draft progresses, Pablo’s PSP draft can progress=
  • Until then, vendors can ship whatever they want (since they are shipping al= ready).

 

I would by happy to produce a first draft of the document that upd= ates 8200.

 

           =              &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;            = ;            &n= bsp;Ron

 

 

Juniper Business Use Only=

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spr= ing

 

Juniper Business Use Only

--_000_DM6PR05MB63489260DD4B5892240694FFAEE80DM6PR05MB6348namp_-- From nobody Fri Feb 28 08:22:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AE4D3A1B9D; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:22:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ps5JGBqukYyW; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:22:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x12e.google.com (mail-lf1-x12e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 70E593A1B92; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:22:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x12e.google.com with SMTP id n25so2552547lfl.0; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:22:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ColBaUEXnbvWnV9YNJ3JVt6ssGHabyRkx/ccV7qAi8o=; b=GUmkMyx/Qb72x0fD+bnA6vfVLEs8e4tywfzP44izlJECQLIZ7qB8SDaCYcB9TZ1V9n XXhhZZQ1XoeG2lBmo7S1fEjmqr8Fd52t17tRpUgaeiMWzGIcyRI8MOJ1k49C/ZISf7w8 y/piIKoEJnydTipWXvrUHg5L8fLqudQzEAeslnPKAkBcxX5RPv7dOmDLfkh5u6GIK1Hm mc+FCceRqnPFCxvPFzm84k6GlQ1WeuxJOBCeifCAW7eiEsp/O1YOrt6/SiFHayNtR3z0 SLEJMg5m1eJiy0v/6JtjJFoPn5VyIgcYUTtWSV2NWF5dMRzHBInmQblRafo64EuZLT72 WEpw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ColBaUEXnbvWnV9YNJ3JVt6ssGHabyRkx/ccV7qAi8o=; b=qzOqDWdqtBPs9G7DqSX6qEAzyUdoJzMgjDSoiBe4o/VjCjlwFEBIH4BE4uoh6nixGG 23gVDQo1kp0+7hjPhI9NW5TRkBsS/o0efDjS9TsYtwKRzouDXBrM6Hi2NCeN/Kt9U3gC xP7IWi6RS2BCnwHSApzQPQ+1ff95NscW4qvdGJjTs7aiz0wWI7SOXkhfDgeY/R8pzSkk 1qj9zlaYtPjDO28U1Cz9lTzWyiRjOurNLsgurWf9WJFSUOGZIFr0rI2OsgH5Ar+gEUYp bEWcCRL5WfTE8+k1qyBFyDt4T3cyE36/sNq1eiRyz1eVc3QJSSWrCsPbL0R4KlltmX0w dh1A== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ3Vy73izRoA78H2VeMAfqNCAr1oCtkvlUYFoexXOCq3H5GdaSM3 +K8Zv1jvK7dBpIJUgR1DN2asP4aLeSkyw2tqlwI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vvFeo2w8jPB03MwR91Ki2zif4rTWb1Hm2pSRi3tY54KDxp+Eb9HPnaG6pFbp0ed2OQbZTJbDkdJHu5GEHLfBzg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:3191:: with SMTP id i17mr1497442lfe.33.1582906957452; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:22:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <158248836511.1031.1350509839394231473@ietfa.amsl.com> <7481061F-75A5-4E4D-80AE-40E1F933E94A@cisco.com> <1BB7ED35-98EC-4A73-92A3-AD043D462CF7@steffann.nl> <97141983-EDF7-4C1E-A8F1-4ADCD345BC5A@cisco.com> <470E6DF4-0EF8-4EC8-8F84-1D5C84CEC5B9@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:22:25 -0800 Message-ID: To: Robert Raszuk Cc: John Scudder , SPRING WG , 6man WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e95b79059fa53eae" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 16:22:46 -0000 --000000000000e95b79059fa53eae Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Robert, you've asked about a possible operational drawback of PSP. I think that for OAM PSP has decremental effect on the usefulness of performance measurements as there's no obvious information to identify the path a packet traversed. Regards, Greg On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 2:55 AM Robert Raszuk wrote: > Hi John, > > > I have an additional observation, or question, about Dan=E2=80=99s scen= ario. > Almost all communication is bidirectional. > > Presumably this means a router that=E2=80=99s the tail end of an SRv6 p= ath in > one direction is the head end in the other. > > While your observation is correct that most TCP connections are bidir SR > in a lot of cases can operate only in one direction. Needless to say it c= an > also be used with UDP streaming. > > To extend Ketan's OTT video example let me observe that in a lot of > transactions queries from clients are tiny and do not TE capabilities whi= le > responses are huge and bursty and may indeed benefit from special handlin= g. > > Sure if you think of applications like VPNs than you are right .. > regardless of the size of the packets proper tagging must occur in either > direction - but this is just one use of SRv6 perhaps not even the major > one. > > - - - > > Now as one friend just asked me offline - putting all IPv6 dogmas aside - > what is the technical issue with removing previously applied extension > header from the packet within a given operator's network ? What breaks wh= en > you do that ? > > Thx, > R. > > > On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 10:11 PM John Scudder 40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > >> I have an additional observation, or question, about Dan=E2=80=99s scena= rio.. >> Almost all communication is bidirectional. Presumably this means a route= r >> that=E2=80=99s the tail end of an SRv6 path in one direction is the head= end in the >> other. Doesn=E2=80=99t a head end need to add an SRH? If I=E2=80=99ve go= tten that right, >> then we can extend Ron=E2=80=99s list with one more item. That is, appar= ently the >> ultimate segment endpoint: >> >> =E2=80=A2 Can process a SID, received as an IPv6 DA, on the fast path >> =E2=80=A2 Cannot process an SRH on receipt, even if Segments Left equal = 0, on the >> fast path. >> =E2=80=A2 Can add an SRH on transmission, on the fast path >> >> Even though strictly speaking the second and third bullet points aren=E2= =80=99t >> mutually exclusive, it=E2=80=99s a little difficult to imagine a real ro= uter that >> would have both these properties simultaneously. Perhaps I=E2=80=99m not= being >> creative enough in imagining deployment scenarios? Since this scenario i= s >> claimed as an important reason this problematic feature is needed, it wo= uld >> be great if someone who understands it would elucidate, thanks. >> >> One further point, Ron says =E2=80=9CI wonder whether it is a good idea = to >> stretch the IPv6 standard to accommodate IPv6-challenged devices.=E2=80= =9D I also >> wonder this, especially because these devices will have a relatively >> limited lifetime in the network.[*] I don=E2=80=99t find the cost/benefi= t >> attractive of making a permanent detrimental change to the IPv6 >> architecture to accommodate a temporary deployment issue. >> >> Regards, >> >> =E2=80=94John >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > --000000000000e95b79059fa53eae Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Robert,
you've asked about a possible operation= al drawback of PSP. I think that for OAM PSP has decremental effect on the = usefulness=C2=A0of performance measurements as there's no obvious infor= mation to identify the path a packet traversed.

Re= gards,
Greg

On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 2:55 AM Robert Raszuk &l= t;robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
=
Hi John,

> I have an additional observ= ation, or question, about Dan=E2=80=99s scenario. Almost all communication = is bidirectional.=C2=A0
> Presumably this means a router that= =E2=80=99s the tail end of an SRv6 path in one direction is the head end in= the other.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

While your obser= vation is correct that most TCP connections are bidir SR in a lot of cases = can operate only in one direction. Needless to say it can also be used with= UDP streaming.=C2=A0

To extend Ketan's OTT vi= deo example let me observe that in a lot of transactions queries from clien= ts are tiny and do not TE capabilities=C2=A0while responses are huge and bu= rsty=C2=A0and may indeed benefit from special handling.=C2=A0
Sure if you think of applications like VPNs than you are right = .. regardless of the size of the packets proper tagging must occur in eithe= r direction - but this is just one use of SRv6 perhaps not even the major o= ne.=C2=A0

- - -=C2=A0

Now= as one friend just asked me offline - putting all IPv6 dogmas aside - what= is the technical issue with removing previously applied extension header f= rom the packet within a given operator's network ? What breaks when you= do that ?=C2=A0

Thx,
R.

<= /div>

On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 10:11 PM John Scudder <jgs=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.iet= f.org> wrote:
I have an additional observation, or question, about Dan=E2=80=99s scenario= .. Almost all communication is bidirectional. Presumably this means a route= r that=E2=80=99s the tail end of an SRv6 path in one direction is the head = end in the other. Doesn=E2=80=99t a head end need to add an SRH? If I=E2=80=99ve gotten that right, then we can extend Ron=E2=80=99= s list with one more item. That is, apparently the ultimate segment endpoin= t:
=C2=A0
=E2=80=A2 Can process a SI= D, received as an IPv6 DA, on the fast path
=E2=80=A2 Cannot process a= n SRH on receipt, even if Segments Left equal 0, on the fast path.
=E2=80=A2 Can add an SRH on tra= nsmission, on the fast path

Even though strictly speaking the second and third bullet points aren= =E2=80=99t mutually exclusive, it=E2=80=99s a little difficult to imagine a= real router that would have both these properties simultaneously. Perhaps = I=E2=80=99m not being creative enough in imagining deployment scenarios? Since this scenario is claimed as an important reaso= n this problematic feature is needed, it would be great if someone who unde= rstands it would elucidate, thanks.

One further point, Ron says =E2=80=9CI wonder whether it is a good ide= a to stretch the IPv6 standard to accommodate IPv6-challenged devices.=E2= =80=9D I also wonder this, especially because these devices will have a rel= atively limited lifetime in the network.[*] I don=E2=80=99t find the cost/benefit attractive of making a permanent det= rimental change to the IPv6 architecture to accommodate a temporary deploym= ent issue.=C2=A0

Regards,

=E2=80=94John

--------------------------------------------------------------------
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
ipv6@ietf.org
Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list= info/ipv6
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--000000000000e95b79059fa53eae-- From nobody Fri Feb 28 08:37:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F86E3A1B1B for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:37:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WYKqqN1QyZCK for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:37:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x231.google.com (mail-oi1-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 506B83A1B13 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:37:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x231.google.com with SMTP id d62so3383009oia.11 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:37:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ZAp0DeYhorsTHRZuOhStjoyx+R0f7p2HB/SsQvhsh78=; b=RxslCeXU0yqFjbwosbf8Dk9LcYEGHM85s/z9sx/eb3crCmM7KKJiXgQXLKpuIDuNdw OPbX5yT/K9o4lkHon4+hpkpG67UMv6vCDGngJSJXJ6/EnBmOudVGsFi9uht/zNoH75B1 9liC7Rj4IY5/0SgFDrEcrzrlbhzk2DuFyZC/dmh/T6Mt08dUqcBU151YmDjuW5UAzYJm 72LcO0cYiuxIYFG1Smmsp0DFDcMOTix8lyCNZRjia7+jfS9zWO3ad7lajD0IOoua1QUg w81ojNOh1gjesgOeYSod1xmSgnYVDxwizdyY8FY/7Ua5bAzSxPjxOI2zQddyfSEC29Je d1eA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ZAp0DeYhorsTHRZuOhStjoyx+R0f7p2HB/SsQvhsh78=; b=O3EISF6zqc3OmCxNMN5tVo8aA6CF85VLpoe+i1oz0R+jp/3Db/ZdUCGhDNQ2GmJKII cWwnsdzHRuMPFXkrOtI1uYp4Yl3vBc75+p9j2rM4c/Yg960rtKt8xuZfWav61MZHiemV erSrIhL4ttItQUcenKKekUd3NWkgDxZrJxCW2hRdRgaH3OowOr4+rOeRcT5CLPzCwBtA Bq+XOx4MZb5w3Am4ZOafLTzggbP8s8J40X3eedQ6/qWrurnQFVNV028jrvV/Dd887lTb M1R8i4C7OlaP72gZx2ra2RzK1qDPtIdZ22STktPW5E0JpgaOYGk/GXZQ6zGNQUlOoiCf q26w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUcx+kCItZA9DTS4RWDRtTFpVNhNx/3LJg+E0uVIN/4xka6k/SL QaJRc1m8FRJaMauqEFU/8k8Wtf9ARMENjY7uAc7WEw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwu932vB3QHKNkoSTfoD07/0rOeRjDFQD/Ko11FD1/I+RYD5Y1EatZu4UnNO6SQEJ3y2CjH0ncsXQhBZxDG1w8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:611:: with SMTP id y17mr3686457oih.146.1582907835927; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:37:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <158248836511.1031.1350509839394231473@ietfa.amsl.com> <7481061F-75A5-4E4D-80AE-40E1F933E94A@cisco.com> <1BB7ED35-98EC-4A73-92A3-AD043D462CF7@steffann.nl> <97141983-EDF7-4C1E-A8F1-4ADCD345BC5A@cisco.com> <470E6DF4-0EF8-4EC8-8F84-1D5C84CEC5B9@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 17:37:01 +0100 Message-ID: To: Greg Mirsky Cc: John Scudder , SPRING WG , 6man WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000460b41059fa573ed" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 16:37:20 -0000 --000000000000460b41059fa573ed Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greg, I agree. Moreover I would suggest to add such text that PSP endpoint behaviours should or must not be set for any OEM packets. Would that help ? Thx, R. On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 5:22 PM Greg Mirsky wrote: > Hi Robert, > you've asked about a possible operational drawback of PSP. I think that > for OAM PSP has decremental effect on the usefulness of performance > measurements as there's no obvious information to identify the path a > packet traversed. > > Regards, > Greg > > On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 2:55 AM Robert Raszuk wrote: > >> Hi John, >> >> > I have an additional observation, or question, about Dan=E2=80=99s sce= nario. >> Almost all communication is bidirectional. >> > Presumably this means a router that=E2=80=99s the tail end of an SRv6 = path in >> one direction is the head end in the other. >> >> While your observation is correct that most TCP connections are bidir SR >> in a lot of cases can operate only in one direction. Needless to say it = can >> also be used with UDP streaming. >> >> To extend Ketan's OTT video example let me observe that in a lot of >> transactions queries from clients are tiny and do not TE capabilities wh= ile >> responses are huge and bursty and may indeed benefit from special handli= ng. >> >> Sure if you think of applications like VPNs than you are right .. >> regardless of the size of the packets proper tagging must occur in eithe= r >> direction - but this is just one use of SRv6 perhaps not even the major >> one. >> >> - - - >> >> Now as one friend just asked me offline - putting all IPv6 dogmas aside = - >> what is the technical issue with removing previously applied extension >> header from the packet within a given operator's network ? What breaks w= hen >> you do that ? >> >> Thx, >> R. >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 10:11 PM John Scudder > 40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: >> >>> I have an additional observation, or question, about Dan=E2=80=99s scen= ario.. >>> Almost all communication is bidirectional. Presumably this means a rout= er >>> that=E2=80=99s the tail end of an SRv6 path in one direction is the hea= d end in the >>> other. Doesn=E2=80=99t a head end need to add an SRH? If I=E2=80=99ve g= otten that right, >>> then we can extend Ron=E2=80=99s list with one more item. That is, appa= rently the >>> ultimate segment endpoint: >>> >>> =E2=80=A2 Can process a SID, received as an IPv6 DA, on the fast path >>> =E2=80=A2 Cannot process an SRH on receipt, even if Segments Left equal= 0, on >>> the fast path. >>> =E2=80=A2 Can add an SRH on transmission, on the fast path >>> >>> Even though strictly speaking the second and third bullet points aren= =E2=80=99t >>> mutually exclusive, it=E2=80=99s a little difficult to imagine a real r= outer that >>> would have both these properties simultaneously. Perhaps I=E2=80=99m no= t being >>> creative enough in imagining deployment scenarios? Since this scenario = is >>> claimed as an important reason this problematic feature is needed, it w= ould >>> be great if someone who understands it would elucidate, thanks. >>> >>> One further point, Ron says =E2=80=9CI wonder whether it is a good idea= to >>> stretch the IPv6 standard to accommodate IPv6-challenged devices.=E2=80= =9D I also >>> wonder this, especially because these devices will have a relatively >>> limited lifetime in the network.[*] I don=E2=80=99t find the cost/benef= it >>> attractive of making a permanent detrimental change to the IPv6 >>> architecture to accommodate a temporary deployment issue. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> =E2=80=94John >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >> ipv6@ietf.org >> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > --000000000000460b41059fa573ed Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greg,

I agree. Moreover I would suggest= to add such text that PSP endpoint behaviours should or must not be set fo= r any OEM packets. Would that help ?=C2=A0

Thx,R.



On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 5:22 PM Greg= Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:
<= div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Robert,
you've asked about a possible operationa= l drawback of PSP. I think that for OAM PSP has decremental effect on the u= sefulness=C2=A0of performance measurements as there's no obvious inform= ation to identify the path a packet traversed.

Reg= ards,
Greg

On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 2:55 AM Robert Raszuk <= ;robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
Hi John,

> I have an = additional observation, or question, about Dan=E2=80=99s scenario. Almost a= ll communication is bidirectional.=C2=A0
> Presumably this mea= ns a router that=E2=80=99s the tail end of an SRv6 path in one direction is= the head end in the other.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

= While your observation is correct that most TCP connections are bidir SR in= a lot of cases can operate only in one direction. Needless to say it can a= lso be used with UDP streaming.=C2=A0

To extend Ke= tan's OTT video example let me observe that in a lot of transactions qu= eries from clients are tiny and do not TE capabilities=C2=A0while responses= are huge and bursty=C2=A0and may indeed benefit from special handling.=C2= =A0

Sure if you think of applications like VPNs th= an you are right .. regardless of the size of the packets proper tagging mu= st occur in either direction - but this is just one use of SRv6 perhaps not= even the major one.=C2=A0

- - -=C2=A0
<= br>
Now as one friend just asked me offline - putting all IPv6 do= gmas aside - what is the technical issue with removing previously applied e= xtension header from the packet within a given operator's network ? Wha= t breaks when you do that ?=C2=A0

Thx,
R= .


On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 10:11 PM John Scudder <jgs= =3D40juni= per.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
I have an additional observation, or question, about Dan=E2=80=99s scenario= .. Almost all communication is bidirectional. Presumably this means a route= r that=E2=80=99s the tail end of an SRv6 path in one direction is the head = end in the other. Doesn=E2=80=99t a head end need to add an SRH? If I=E2=80=99ve gotten that right, then we can extend Ron=E2=80=99= s list with one more item. That is, apparently the ultimate segment endpoin= t:
=C2=A0
=E2=80=A2 Can process a SI= D, received as an IPv6 DA, on the fast path
=E2=80=A2 Cannot process a= n SRH on receipt, even if Segments Left equal 0, on the fast path.
=E2=80=A2 Can add an SRH on tra= nsmission, on the fast path

Even though strictly speaking the second and third bullet points aren= =E2=80=99t mutually exclusive, it=E2=80=99s a little difficult to imagine a= real router that would have both these properties simultaneously. Perhaps = I=E2=80=99m not being creative enough in imagining deployment scenarios? Since this scenario is claimed as an important reaso= n this problematic feature is needed, it would be great if someone who unde= rstands it would elucidate, thanks.

One further point, Ron says =E2=80=9CI wonder whether it is a good ide= a to stretch the IPv6 standard to accommodate IPv6-challenged devices.=E2= =80=9D I also wonder this, especially because these devices will have a rel= atively limited lifetime in the network.[*] I don=E2=80=99t find the cost/benefit attractive of making a permanent det= rimental change to the IPv6 architecture to accommodate a temporary deploym= ent issue.=C2=A0

Regards,

=E2=80=94John

--------------------------------------------------------------------
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
ipv6@ietf.org
Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list= info/ipv6
--------------------------------------------------------------------
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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Beyond that, SRv6 nodes examine the O-flag, even when Segments Left is equa= l to 0. So, when the SRH is removed, O-flag functionality isn't available a= t the ultimate segment endpoint. Ron From: spring On Behalf Of Greg Mirsky Sent: Friday, February 28, 2020 11:22 AM To: Robert Raszuk Cc: John Scudder ; SPRING WG ; 6man WG Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programmin= g-10.txt Hi Robert, you've asked about a possible operational drawback of PSP. I think that for= OAM PSP has decremental effect on the usefulness of performance measuremen= ts as there's no obvious information to identify the path a packet traverse= d. Regards, Greg On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 2:55 AM Robert Raszuk > wrote: Hi John, > I have an additional observation, or question, about Dan's scenario. Almo= st all communication is bidirectional. > Presumably this means a router that's the tail end of an SRv6 path in one= direction is the head end in the other. While your observation is correct that most TCP connections are bidir SR in= a lot of cases can operate only in one direction. Needless to say it can a= lso be used with UDP streaming. To extend Ketan's OTT video example let me observe that in a lot of transac= tions queries from clients are tiny and do not TE capabilities while respon= ses are huge and bursty and may indeed benefit from special handling. Sure if you think of applications like VPNs than you are right ... regardle= ss of the size of the packets proper tagging must occur in either direction= - but this is just one use of SRv6 perhaps not even the major one. - - - Now as one friend just asked me offline - putting all IPv6 dogmas aside - w= hat is the technical issue with removing previously applied extension heade= r from the packet within a given operator's network ? What breaks when you = do that ? Thx, R. On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 10:11 PM John Scudder > wrote: I have an additional observation, or question, about Dan's scenario... Almo= st all communication is bidirectional. Presumably this means a router that'= s the tail end of an SRv6 path in one direction is the head end in the othe= r. Doesn't a head end need to add an SRH? If I've gotten that right, then w= e can extend Ron's list with one more item. That is, apparently the ultimat= e segment endpoint: * Can process a SID, received as an IPv6 DA, on the fast path * Cannot process an SRH on receipt, even if Segments Left equal 0, on the f= ast path. * Can add an SRH on transmission, on the fast path Even though strictly speaking the second and third bullet points aren't mut= ually exclusive, it's a little difficult to imagine a real router that woul= d have both these properties simultaneously. Perhaps I'm not being creative= enough in imagining deployment scenarios? Since this scenario is claimed a= s an important reason this problematic feature is needed, it would be great= if someone who understands it would elucidate, thanks. One further point, Ron says "I wonder whether it is a good idea to stretch = the IPv6 standard to accommodate IPv6-challenged devices." I also wonder th= is, especially because these devices will have a relatively limited lifetim= e in the network.[*] I don't find the cost/benefit attractive of making a p= ermanent detrimental change to the IPv6 architecture to accommodate a tempo= rary deployment issue. Regards, -John -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPv6 working group mailing list ipv6@ietf.org Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 -------------------------------------------------------------------- Juniper Business Use Only --_000_DM6PR05MB6348DCB4349F74E12FA31275AEE80DM6PR05MB6348namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Beyond that, SRv6 nodes examine the O-flag, even whe= n Segments Left is equal to 0. So, when the SRH is removed, O-flag function= ality isn’t available at the ultimate segment endpoint.

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           Ron<= /o:p>

 

 

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> = On Behalf Of Greg Mirsky
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2020 11:22 AM
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Cc: John Scudder <jgs=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>; SPRING = WG <spring@ietf.org>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming-10.txt

 

Hi Robert,

you've asked about a possible operational drawback o= f PSP. I think that for OAM PSP has decremental effect on the usefulness&nb= sp;of performance measurements as there's no obvious information to identif= y the path a packet traversed.

 

Regards,

Greg

 

On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 2:55 AM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

Hi John,

 

> I have an additional observation, or question, = about Dan’s scenario. Almost all communication is bidirectional. = ;

> Presumably this means a router that’s the= tail end of an SRv6 path in one direction is the head end in the other.&nb= sp;  

 

While your observation is correct that most TCP conn= ections are bidir SR in a lot of cases can operate only in one direction. N= eedless to say it can also be used with UDP streaming. 

 

To extend Ketan's OTT video example let me observe t= hat in a lot of transactions queries from clients are tiny and do not TE ca= pabilities while responses are huge and bursty and may indeed ben= efit from special handling. 

 

Sure if you think of applications like VPNs than you= are right ... regardless of the size of the packets proper tagging must oc= cur in either direction - but this is just one use of SRv6 perhaps not even= the major one. 

 

- - - 

 

Now as one friend just asked me offline - putting al= l IPv6 dogmas aside - what is the technical issue with removing previously = applied extension header from the packet within a given operator's network = ? What breaks when you do that ? 

 

Thx,

R.

 

 

On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 10:11 PM John Scudder <jg= s=3D40jun= iper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

I have an additional observation, or question, about= Dan’s scenario... Almost all communication is bidirectional. Presuma= bly this means a router that’s the tail end of an SRv6 path in one di= rection is the head end in the other. Doesn’t a head end need to add an SRH? If I’ve gotten that right, then we ca= n extend Ron’s list with one more item. That is, apparently the ultim= ate segment endpoint:
 

• Can process a SID, received as an IPv6 DA, o= n the fast path

• Cannot process an SRH on receipt, even if Se= gments Left equal 0, on the fast path.

• Can add an SRH on transmission, on the fast = path

 

Even though strictly speaking the second and third b= ullet points aren’t mutually exclusive, it’s a little difficult= to imagine a real router that would have both these properties simultaneou= sly. Perhaps I’m not being creative enough in imagining deployment scenarios? Since this scenario is claimed as an impor= tant reason this problematic feature is needed, it would be great if someon= e who understands it would elucidate, thanks.

 

One further point, Ron says “I wonder whether = it is a good idea to stretch the IPv6 standard to accommodate IPv6-challeng= ed devices.” I also wonder this, especially because these devices wil= l have a relatively limited lifetime in the network.[*] I don’t find the cost/benefit attractive of making a permanent detri= mental change to the IPv6 architecture to accommodate a temporary deploymen= t issue. 

 

Regards,

 

—John

 

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Juniper Business Use Only

--_000_DM6PR05MB6348DCB4349F74E12FA31275AEE80DM6PR05MB6348namp_-- From nobody Fri Feb 28 08:40:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 096163A1B21 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:40:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8VTSRQW2v_2k for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:40:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw1-xc33.google.com (mail-yw1-xc33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 19BC03A1B04 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:40:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yw1-xc33.google.com with SMTP id i126so3856036ywe.7 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:40:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6/oUoNXWLwYLIsCT9keYhtDm427WY5BBA0uIeW9sCJg=; b=ZT5Xax8/IIubNF7+VWuuW0gN2MRgk8PDKSNWa/HIicQevL0qqdpQYW07/yqpac3dD8 JFZKD0MUaTRi11oZPgd5sCGnlZoWzA/siuBqN4GXbwoZSd64p6kYMrOqXptWbFOwRX1m +V3fLfJaA+rZ7t2hHGDmMpoO5NahS2i7caOClUV6QZP5CCjDc4tDCZMoHe2CYNn6Rj9c IPnjBh4aOakSmm3Zf6gDGCt8m3nOUwyq3pHBqCTYCDwDkiBYaX+dSXNEtNEAHOTn/JuD 3QMjhNs6DLfAJXHKOSYOUI9B/ztkuBWZaJ0cCOqPlawLGeFc6c17eUjzC5AKjJkjT3KK 606Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6/oUoNXWLwYLIsCT9keYhtDm427WY5BBA0uIeW9sCJg=; b=dcGZjyvjJNwkzvl/gWxZelCJKhp2jXtU62VdrqbMzs2Fj/qjsBXHqKETSJdCobCOX4 iiMDCnVcYdV2StnXe3wqFLnR2wbU6QnKuc9AU8vf7IDtx94pB8p5mrPXOr78/+1IFyzs xMlYdc7LNKzgfSW6EOc4wMzYNcncwgD+HEW3idO2YBSHaRzrZQGBrg1hycatIzv5vRrn VeDUU9vG1YUmbUgY8S673TsLoR5vYKD0CgRFs7vWjOxac+s8kS1aEfBqTPD5hBpKw9Bx YrTKF+tn4biJyVNl5NcJhiiabBLiBcCNIqblEZH2pZvpyelsomIwf5JwYE8TsDGrtjtA 2ppw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU+vaCLDm79L5bEG1jMR58k+shdZTK0aBx7r83hSFzwN02Izn9x JVFvelH/kF3GgEGLA7yeeOWknPs/4JMT9V6m5U5w6Hw6 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz8IuzwBGexgaFCwxeZnDTZ1L/c8E5YKX/WGlHbFb3wtf94Bi0kHhQ9jM6IPCO3icnDkL2RCwD1ir4rd5S5lfM= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:7083:: with SMTP id l3mr3813743otj.193.1582907578938; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:32:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 17:32:45 +0100 Message-ID: To: Ron Bonica Cc: SPRING WG List , 6man WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f4893f059fa5638a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Progressing draft-ietf-spring-network-programming: Finding a compromise X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 16:40:11 -0000 --000000000000f4893f059fa5638a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Ron, IMO current version of RFC8200 is very clear - node which is identified in DA of the packet can modify or delete EHs. I see no reason to spend time updating it. Indeed insertion of new EH by any node in the path was at odds with the RFC8200 text hence I suggested that it is removed to a separate draft. But here there is no reason to remove anything as the current version of the NPG is compliant with it as is. Regards, R. On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 5:22 PM Ron Bonica wrote: > Robert, > > > > This is not an attempt to buy time until an undefined future. I sincerely > believe that: > > > > - I can produce a draft that updates RFC 8200 before IETF 107 > - The community can progress it by IETF 109 > - The vendors can ship what they want until then > > > > If you want to make sure that this happens, you can work with me on the > draft=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6 > > > > > Ron > > > > > > > > *From:* Robert Raszuk > *Sent:* Friday, February 28, 2020 11:04 AM > *To:* Ron Bonica > *Cc:* SPRING WG List ; 6man WG > *Subject:* Re: [spring] Progressing > draft-ietf-spring-network-programming: Finding a compromise > > > > Dear Ron, > > > > I love your definition of "compromise": "You do what we tell you to do". > > > > Is this PSP removal crusade targeted to buy more time by making PSP > illegal till undefined future ? > > > > Compromise in my books here would be to make PSP optional - but wait as > stated already this is already optional today ! Node signals zero SIDs fo= r > PSP and it is no longer the problem for the node. > > > > Can you please at least one admit what real technical problem we are > facing here with PSP ? > > > > Many thx, > > R. > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 4:43 PM Ron Bonica 40juniper.net@dmarc..ietf.org <40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote: > > Folks, > > > > I think that it is time to find a compromised regarding > draft-ietf-spring-network-programming. How does the following sound: > > > > - Pablo removes Section 4.16 and all references to PSP from > draft-ietf-spring-network-programming and puts all of that content in= to > another draft > - The WG progresses draft-ietf-spring-network-programming > - I will produce a document that updates The Devil=E2=80=99s Paragraph= , as > described in > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/Xm2RTBm-Hh_ZVUa5El4To1zopSg= / > ... > The draft will allow removal of the RH, but only when Segments Left eq= uals > zero and when that action was requested by the source node as in > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/cXpzCLOVQ1OOUPGU13ZNnQWDVIA= / > > ... > - When that draft progresses, Pablo=E2=80=99s PSP draft can progress > - Until then, vendors can ship whatever they want (since they are > shipping already). > > > > I would by happy to produce a first draft of the document that updates > 8200. > > > > > = Ron > > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > --000000000000f4893f059fa5638a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Ron,

IMO current version of RFC820= 0 is very clear - node which is identified in DA of the packet can modify= =C2=A0or delete EHs.=C2=A0

I see no reason to spen= d time updating it.=C2=A0

Indeed insertion of new = EH by any node in the path was at odds with the RFC8200 text hence I sugges= ted that it is removed to a separate draft. But here there is no reason to = remove anything as=C2=A0the=C2=A0current version of the NPG is compliant wi= th it as is.=C2=A0

Regards,
R.



On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 5:22 PM Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net> wrote:
=

Robert,

=C2=A0

This is not an attempt to buy time until an undefine= d future. I sincerely believe that:

=C2=A0

  • I can produce a draft that updates RFC 8200 before IETF 107
  • The community can progress it by IETF 109<= /u>
  • The vendors can ship what they want until then<= /u>

=C2=A0

If you want to make sure that this happens, you can = work with me on the draft=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Ron

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2020 11:04 AM
To: Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Cc: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] Progressing draft-ietf-spring-network-programm= ing: Finding a compromise

=C2=A0

Dear Ron,=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I love your definition of "compromise": &q= uot;You do what we tell you to do".=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Is this PSP removal crusade targeted to buy more tim= e by making PSP illegal till undefined future ?=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Compromise in my books here would be to make PSP opt= ional - but wait as stated already this is already optional today ! Node si= gnals zero SIDs for PSP and it is no longer the problem for the node.=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

Can you please at least one admit what real technica= l problem we are facing here with PSP ?=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Many thx,

R.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 4:43 PM Ron Bonica <rboni= ca=3D40ju= niper.net@dmarc..ietf.org> wrote:

Folks,

=C2=A0

I think that it is time to find a compromised regard= ing =C2=A0draft-ietf-spring-network-programming. How does the following sou= nd:

=C2=A0

  • Pablo removes Section 4.16 and all references to PSP from =C2=A0draft-ietf-= spring-network-programming and puts all of that content into another draft<= u>
  • The WG progresses =C2=A0draft-ietf-spring-network-programming=
  • I will produce a document that updates The Devil=E2=80=99s Paragraph, as de= scribed in https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/Xm2RTBm-Hh_ZVUa5El4To1zopSg/= ... The draft will allow removal of the RH, but only when Segments Left equ= als zero and when that action was requested by the source node as in https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/cXpzCLOVQ1OOUPGU13ZNnQWDVIA/= ...
  • When that draft progresses, Pablo=E2=80=99s PSP draft can progress
  • Until then, vendors can ship whatever they want (since they are shipping al= ready).

=C2=A0

I would by happy to produce a first draft of the doc= ument that updates 8200.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Ron

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Juniper Business Use Only<= /u>

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spr= ing

=C2=A0

Juniper Business Use Only<= u>

--000000000000f4893f059fa5638a-- From nobody Fri Feb 28 08:45:14 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1342E3A1B34; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:44:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0JeY0YLn2L20; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:44:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x136.google.com (mail-lf1-x136.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7CE13A1B3E; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:44:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x136.google.com with SMTP id y17so2566829lfe.8; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:44:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6vyJGOeOALC62LuYofTZudKUs84ZVt8bAPJX+S3dvRA=; b=a8MKs4WsNSgHbffjBuxhD931xXvfoBzGerSxE9HNwFrpLPha6+qq1ikDqYBZKOMCPc vAPB5MfZayAygAO0CI9ZH73g/p/ieWI0jpuf2qy4Pwo/k3qEFaBcPxS2RK3ZagwV43Kv GJ6nlHLt07QDboOei001X0+LssgKo19DufcfGqFJAL/QuEFaQ4iAJkbEVPM7WFwQYhho 8HS5TOSt3qxbE3W53bZvbxb48Lb4+fIo+qKHS3M+gNEZ7S/a/DQgJivwA3ciakzOYhzx Q5qu/tAduy3w10oQufeZniXm71PFXrVUw6as9CcDgRq5mCaiwMa1OEApFc8pYpZ2QznL YIkg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6vyJGOeOALC62LuYofTZudKUs84ZVt8bAPJX+S3dvRA=; b=lVkwEprQgvmEMT8FlJ2oiJX4K0n0IEWX26YNLU8VDgG6pCdD5wWd4bAUiC5i1uiA9+ 7cqC68nD5L3+bQF3c0EbyvTqA6Gm5ACQce+BCnKxGcFvhCW1wCPyeOTMnBC6TW/20/uz tTYr/ptt37DlY3/h1QrrQpbDVPG00QpVV2zS64mo4ey8Fd/9jcP2gcGn/aS6T05GV5Zi iQjo98oXOLX/Jvwu6U5lex0lsBsnh3jCTcG7UUL7ITSZ+lJ/RBhwcs8js1Bu7N0q1/u3 vm8mldeAloDSAjxOBhi+9fgzlwrUYObiQzH0HKprTy0Y1BDBvWPvG23t0cMDOL1TnHoa kSEg== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ3fPKxwtZfDLa7CPz68yNzQhiErreaG2gnXdlQbqa2XOKl+CNEd KfW/1iasTTTpeG6N53vDhfTybPcM3Vw9mb56AVE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vt9byzg84hy/DpFMMiST5/LRhvyHx3Yy00NvpfSTA679usw3FFeFqSeKwszqUiNczOuv835fQE/z9lXbtGWz6Q= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:3191:: with SMTP id i17mr1544673lfe.33.1582908285828; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:44:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <158248836511.1031.1350509839394231473@ietfa.amsl.com> <7481061F-75A5-4E4D-80AE-40E1F933E94A@cisco.com> <1BB7ED35-98EC-4A73-92A3-AD043D462CF7@steffann.nl> <97141983-EDF7-4C1E-A8F1-4ADCD345BC5A@cisco.com> <470E6DF4-0EF8-4EC8-8F84-1D5C84CEC5B9@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:44:34 -0800 Message-ID: To: Robert Raszuk Cc: John Scudder , SPRING WG , 6man WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000016c29f059fa58e97" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 16:44:54 -0000 --00000000000016c29f059fa58e97 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Robert, thank you for you consideration. Pablo and I had discussed references to OAM in the SRv6 network programming draft. Pablo and authors kindly agreed to remove all references to OAM and draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam. As we are discussing the network programming draft, draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam is in WGLC at 6man. My intention was to work with the authors of SRv6 OAM draft on documenting its relationship with PSP. Would that make sense? Regards, Greg On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 8:37 AM Robert Raszuk wrote: > Greg, > > I agree. Moreover I would suggest to add such text that PSP endpoint > behaviours should or must not be set for any OEM packets. Would that help= ? > > Thx, > R. > > > > On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 5:22 PM Greg Mirsky wrote= : > >> Hi Robert, >> you've asked about a possible operational drawback of PSP. I think that >> for OAM PSP has decremental effect on the usefulness of performance >> measurements as there's no obvious information to identify the path a >> packet traversed. >> >> Regards, >> Greg >> >> On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 2:55 AM Robert Raszuk wrote: >> >>> Hi John, >>> >>> > I have an additional observation, or question, about Dan=E2=80=99s sc= enario. >>> Almost all communication is bidirectional. >>> > Presumably this means a router that=E2=80=99s the tail end of an SRv6= path in >>> one direction is the head end in the other. >>> >>> While your observation is correct that most TCP connections are bidir S= R >>> in a lot of cases can operate only in one direction. Needless to say it= can >>> also be used with UDP streaming. >>> >>> To extend Ketan's OTT video example let me observe that in a lot of >>> transactions queries from clients are tiny and do not TE capabilities w= hile >>> responses are huge and bursty and may indeed benefit from special handl= ing. >>> >>> Sure if you think of applications like VPNs than you are right .. >>> regardless of the size of the packets proper tagging must occur in eith= er >>> direction - but this is just one use of SRv6 perhaps not even the major >>> one. >>> >>> - - - >>> >>> Now as one friend just asked me offline - putting all IPv6 dogmas aside >>> - what is the technical issue with removing previously applied extensio= n >>> header from the packet within a given operator's network ? What breaks = when >>> you do that ? >>> >>> Thx, >>> R. >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 10:11 PM John Scudder >> 40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I have an additional observation, or question, about Dan=E2=80=99s sce= nario.. >>>> Almost all communication is bidirectional. Presumably this means a rou= ter >>>> that=E2=80=99s the tail end of an SRv6 path in one direction is the he= ad end in the >>>> other. Doesn=E2=80=99t a head end need to add an SRH? If I=E2=80=99ve = gotten that right, >>>> then we can extend Ron=E2=80=99s list with one more item. That is, app= arently the >>>> ultimate segment endpoint: >>>> >>>> =E2=80=A2 Can process a SID, received as an IPv6 DA, on the fast path >>>> =E2=80=A2 Cannot process an SRH on receipt, even if Segments Left equa= l 0, on >>>> the fast path. >>>> =E2=80=A2 Can add an SRH on transmission, on the fast path >>>> >>>> Even though strictly speaking the second and third bullet points aren= =E2=80=99t >>>> mutually exclusive, it=E2=80=99s a little difficult to imagine a real = router that >>>> would have both these properties simultaneously. Perhaps I=E2=80=99m n= ot being >>>> creative enough in imagining deployment scenarios? Since this scenario= is >>>> claimed as an important reason this problematic feature is needed, it = would >>>> be great if someone who understands it would elucidate, thanks. >>>> >>>> One further point, Ron says =E2=80=9CI wonder whether it is a good ide= a to >>>> stretch the IPv6 standard to accommodate IPv6-challenged devices.=E2= =80=9D I also >>>> wonder this, especially because these devices will have a relatively >>>> limited lifetime in the network.[*] I don=E2=80=99t find the cost/bene= fit >>>> attractive of making a permanent detrimental change to the IPv6 >>>> architecture to accommodate a temporary deployment issue. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> =E2=80=94John >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>> ipv6@ietf.org >>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >> --00000000000016c29f059fa58e97 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Robert,
thank you for you consideration. Pablo and = I had discussed references to OAM in the SRv6 network programming draft. Pa= blo and authors kindly agreed to remove all references to OAM and=C2=A0draf= t-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam. As we are discussing the network programming d= raft,=C2=A0draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam is in WGLC at 6man. My intention= was to work with the authors of SRv6 OAM draft on documenting its relation= ship with PSP. Would that make sense?

Regards,
Greg



On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 8:37= AM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.ne= t> wrote:
Greg,

I agree. Moreover I would sugges= t to add such text that PSP endpoint behaviours should or must not be set f= or any OEM packets. Would that help ?=C2=A0

Thx,R.



On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 5:22 PM Gre= g Mirsky <gre= gimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Robert,
you've asked about a = possible operational drawback of PSP. I think that for OAM PSP has decremen= tal effect on the usefulness=C2=A0of performance measurements as there'= s no obvious information to identify the path a packet traversed.

Regards,
Greg

On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 2:55 A= M Robert Raszuk <= robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
Hi John,

<= div>> I have an additional observation, or question, about Dan=E2=80=99s= scenario. Almost all communication is bidirectional.=C2=A0
> = Presumably this means a router that=E2=80=99s the tail end of an SRv6 path = in one direction is the head end in the other.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
<= div>
While your observation is correct that most TCP connecti= ons are bidir SR in a lot of cases can operate only in one direction. Needl= ess to say it can also be used with UDP streaming.=C2=A0

To extend Ketan's OTT video example let me observe that in a lot= of transactions queries from clients are tiny and do not TE capabilities= =C2=A0while responses are huge and bursty=C2=A0and may indeed benefit from = special handling.=C2=A0

Sure if you think of appli= cations like VPNs than you are right .. regardless of the size of the packe= ts proper tagging must occur in either direction - but this is just one use= of SRv6 perhaps not even the major one.=C2=A0

- -= -=C2=A0

Now as one friend just asked me offline -= putting all IPv6 dogmas aside - what is the technical issue with removing = previously applied extension header from the packet within a given operator= 's network ? What breaks when you do that ?=C2=A0

<= div>Thx,
R.


On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 10:11 PM = John Scudder <jgs=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
I have an additional observation, or question, about Dan=E2=80=99s scenario= .. Almost all communication is bidirectional. Presumably this means a route= r that=E2=80=99s the tail end of an SRv6 path in one direction is the head = end in the other. Doesn=E2=80=99t a head end need to add an SRH? If I=E2=80=99ve gotten that right, then we can extend Ron=E2=80=99= s list with one more item. That is, apparently the ultimate segment endpoin= t:
=C2=A0
=E2=80=A2 Can process a SI= D, received as an IPv6 DA, on the fast path
=E2=80=A2 Cannot process a= n SRH on receipt, even if Segments Left equal 0, on the fast path.
=E2=80=A2 Can add an SRH on tra= nsmission, on the fast path

Even though strictly speaking the second and third bullet points aren= =E2=80=99t mutually exclusive, it=E2=80=99s a little difficult to imagine a= real router that would have both these properties simultaneously. Perhaps = I=E2=80=99m not being creative enough in imagining deployment scenarios? Since this scenario is claimed as an important reaso= n this problematic feature is needed, it would be great if someone who unde= rstands it would elucidate, thanks.

One further point, Ron says =E2=80=9CI wonder whether it is a good ide= a to stretch the IPv6 standard to accommodate IPv6-challenged devices.=E2= =80=9D I also wonder this, especially because these devices will have a rel= atively limited lifetime in the network.[*] I don=E2=80=99t find the cost/benefit attractive of making a permanent det= rimental change to the IPv6 architecture to accommodate a temporary deploym= ent issue.=C2=A0

Regards,

=E2=80=94John

--------------------------------------------------------------------
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ipv6@ietf.org
Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list= info/ipv6
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--00000000000016c29f059fa58e97-- From nobody Fri Feb 28 08:46:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 356043A1B45 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:46:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PKPcLsU8Z2Bj for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:46:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x22d.google.com (mail-oi1-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B99703A1B3E for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:46:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x22d.google.com with SMTP id j80so1440452oih.7 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:46:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=KPwyPW3BKLVYsxajf7AIjlnxyIBj46eytRYZNBifoL4=; b=eLtUzwW9UIkm8++K1KmqQ1ck1DxBnZ1MQ2F6TuQOlse5h4ZU1nBZsQ8icWtB6RwkJZ CBCZDRFwNwD64MStFRWK1hXSkcNEWHk1Mq02coC4CYvnlf8A6XWoRYiiLVLptNIcJOr2 9jAAhtDW+QWMQBYNNwKuF1k1bpmaAQqkgpd2qA8vsRoCYvC+HfHnIwmDNiWE9ab2MDlZ NsNa8jndNTvFRD4xHlgXUmgRLIsnoVYKWPTIu0gy3TJq8tnoBvKkz5FyMjoscnA89bKg hzS3v4+cfVwUA8sE7Op4hNBQ7m/eJMqVmmcNWffxsVVqOwpzdp8zNbaxMJxAgdFU/XJg TdVA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=KPwyPW3BKLVYsxajf7AIjlnxyIBj46eytRYZNBifoL4=; b=WiOwwesZSIbz/dbn4LMbU5+FeG3GjUI2Uf2gZxVgytwaECGr6DBubg74dM8ZOWPIbV t+74+zb7Y2k4U8Ji302PFVzxcuJ0UbIvSppQDKbiIGblZpSRiJUhIwP3IYrr35O5tw/9 52FoG9ymJoU+jqPOiMIRSDxvQ+cQsvJoyDy/wMcK1HoHzKU7t31WEdVzxz4DsOwZcZ/U b/83zH1kYaKoYz0XJlklM7R7CebEGD44PoJQ1J0IgHkGjoMc4iPvPyJdLQxrjka5CGGg S31FUrw6269ncv8xaIxFn6f8/9/wQkEfztrsSk1rDyjtiHV9x3x8haFzH12mbxjSyGBG QHNQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXwBhpViXqYKEC/cNKAHWxCoCR3dFJsn6fNeHW+ShG/mfgQA2RM RcN8Bz6JJIjl1b0XCPDyOGmsnz+7Mdm3MvKdfTyApw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxVmO2+FlzhHppljs4kr6iMXS0gJVlWajzogrSn7snroG8nJ7BOKgYiNPdGz9gl3VsVGIk/VHUWVtzTnQFzmdw= X-Received: by 2002:aca:4306:: with SMTP id q6mr3867992oia.54.1582908371006; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:46:11 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <158248836511.1031.1350509839394231473@ietfa.amsl.com> <7481061F-75A5-4E4D-80AE-40E1F933E94A@cisco.com> <1BB7ED35-98EC-4A73-92A3-AD043D462CF7@steffann.nl> <97141983-EDF7-4C1E-A8F1-4ADCD345BC5A@cisco.com> <470E6DF4-0EF8-4EC8-8F84-1D5C84CEC5B9@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 17:45:56 +0100 Message-ID: To: Greg Mirsky Cc: John Scudder , SPRING WG , 6man WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002a8b87059fa5938c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 16:46:18 -0000 --0000000000002a8b87059fa5938c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Even better ! Thank you, R. On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 5:44 PM Greg Mirsky wrote: > Hi Robert, > thank you for you consideration. Pablo and I had discussed references to > OAM in the SRv6 network programming draft. Pablo and authors kindly agree= d > to remove all references to OAM and draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam. As w= e > are discussing the network programming > draft, draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam is in WGLC at 6man. My intention w= as > to work with the authors of SRv6 OAM draft on documenting its relationshi= p > with PSP. Would that make sense? > > Regards, > Greg > > > > On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 8:37 AM Robert Raszuk wrote: > >> Greg, >> >> I agree. Moreover I would suggest to add such text that PSP endpoint >> behaviours should or must not be set for any OEM packets. Would that hel= p ? >> >> Thx, >> R. >> >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 5:22 PM Greg Mirsky >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Robert, >>> you've asked about a possible operational drawback of PSP. I think that >>> for OAM PSP has decremental effect on the usefulness of performance >>> measurements as there's no obvious information to identify the path a >>> packet traversed. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Greg >>> >>> On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 2:55 AM Robert Raszuk wrote= : >>> >>>> Hi John, >>>> >>>> > I have an additional observation, or question, about Dan=E2=80=99s s= cenario. >>>> Almost all communication is bidirectional. >>>> > Presumably this means a router that=E2=80=99s the tail end of an SRv= 6 path in >>>> one direction is the head end in the other. >>>> >>>> While your observation is correct that most TCP connections are bidir >>>> SR in a lot of cases can operate only in one direction. Needless to sa= y it >>>> can also be used with UDP streaming. >>>> >>>> To extend Ketan's OTT video example let me observe that in a lot of >>>> transactions queries from clients are tiny and do not TE capabilities = while >>>> responses are huge and bursty and may indeed benefit from special hand= ling. >>>> >>>> Sure if you think of applications like VPNs than you are right .. >>>> regardless of the size of the packets proper tagging must occur in eit= her >>>> direction - but this is just one use of SRv6 perhaps not even the majo= r >>>> one. >>>> >>>> - - - >>>> >>>> Now as one friend just asked me offline - putting all IPv6 dogmas asid= e >>>> - what is the technical issue with removing previously applied extensi= on >>>> header from the packet within a given operator's network ? What breaks= when >>>> you do that ? >>>> >>>> Thx, >>>> R. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 10:11 PM John Scudder >>> 40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I have an additional observation, or question, about Dan=E2=80=99s sc= enario.. >>>>> Almost all communication is bidirectional. Presumably this means a ro= uter >>>>> that=E2=80=99s the tail end of an SRv6 path in one direction is the h= ead end in the >>>>> other. Doesn=E2=80=99t a head end need to add an SRH? If I=E2=80=99ve= gotten that right, >>>>> then we can extend Ron=E2=80=99s list with one more item. That is, ap= parently the >>>>> ultimate segment endpoint: >>>>> >>>>> =E2=80=A2 Can process a SID, received as an IPv6 DA, on the fast path >>>>> =E2=80=A2 Cannot process an SRH on receipt, even if Segments Left equ= al 0, on >>>>> the fast path. >>>>> =E2=80=A2 Can add an SRH on transmission, on the fast path >>>>> >>>>> Even though strictly speaking the second and third bullet points >>>>> aren=E2=80=99t mutually exclusive, it=E2=80=99s a little difficult to= imagine a real router >>>>> that would have both these properties simultaneously. Perhaps I=E2=80= =99m not being >>>>> creative enough in imagining deployment scenarios? Since this scenari= o is >>>>> claimed as an important reason this problematic feature is needed, it= would >>>>> be great if someone who understands it would elucidate, thanks. >>>>> >>>>> One further point, Ron says =E2=80=9CI wonder whether it is a good id= ea to >>>>> stretch the IPv6 standard to accommodate IPv6-challenged devices.=E2= =80=9D I also >>>>> wonder this, especially because these devices will have a relatively >>>>> limited lifetime in the network.[*] I don=E2=80=99t find the cost/ben= efit >>>>> attractive of making a permanent detrimental change to the IPv6 >>>>> architecture to accommodate a temporary deployment issue. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> =E2=80=94John >>>>> >>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>>> ipv6@ietf.org >>>> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>> --0000000000002a8b87059fa5938c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Even better !=C2=A0

Thank you,
R.

On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 5:44 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Robert,thank you for you consideration. Pablo and I had discussed references to = OAM in the SRv6 network programming draft. Pablo and authors kindly agreed = to remove all references to OAM and=C2=A0draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam. A= s we are discussing the network programming draft,=C2=A0draft-ietf-6man-spr= ing-srv6-oam is in WGLC at 6man. My intention was to work with the authors = of SRv6 OAM draft on documenting its relationship with PSP. Would that make= sense?

Regards,
Greg



On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 8:37 AM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> w= rote:
Greg,

I agree. Moreover I would suggest to add = such text that PSP endpoint behaviours should or must not be set for any OE= M packets. Would that help ?=C2=A0

Thx,
R.



On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 5:22 PM Greg Mirsky = <gregimirsky@= gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Robert,
you've asked about a possibl= e operational drawback of PSP. I think that for OAM PSP has decremental eff= ect on the usefulness=C2=A0of performance measurements as there's no ob= vious information to identify the path a packet traversed.

Regards,
Greg

=
On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 2:55 AM Rober= t Raszuk <robert@= raszuk.net> wrote:
Hi John,

&g= t; I have an additional observation, or question, about Dan=E2=80=99s scena= rio. Almost all communication is bidirectional.=C2=A0
> Presum= ably this means a router that=E2=80=99s the tail end of an SRv6 path in one= direction is the head end in the other.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
While your observation is correct that most TCP connections ar= e bidir SR in a lot of cases can operate only in one direction. Needless to= say it can also be used with UDP streaming.=C2=A0

To extend Ketan's OTT video example let me observe that in a lot of tr= ansactions queries from clients are tiny and do not TE capabilities=C2=A0wh= ile responses are huge and bursty=C2=A0and may indeed benefit from special = handling.=C2=A0

Sure if you think of applications = like VPNs than you are right .. regardless of the size of the packets prope= r tagging must occur in either direction - but this is just one use of SRv6= perhaps not even the major one.=C2=A0

- - -=C2=A0=

Now as one friend just asked me offline - putting= all IPv6 dogmas aside - what is the technical issue with removing previous= ly applied extension header from the packet within a given operator's n= etwork ? What breaks when you do that ?=C2=A0

Thx,=
R.


On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 10:11 PM John Scu= dder <jgs=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
I have an additional observation, or question, about Dan=E2=80=99s scenario= .. Almost all communication is bidirectional. Presumably this means a route= r that=E2=80=99s the tail end of an SRv6 path in one direction is the head = end in the other. Doesn=E2=80=99t a head end need to add an SRH? If I=E2=80=99ve gotten that right, then we can extend Ron=E2=80=99= s list with one more item. That is, apparently the ultimate segment endpoin= t:
=C2=A0
=E2=80=A2 Can process a SI= D, received as an IPv6 DA, on the fast path
=E2=80=A2 Cannot process a= n SRH on receipt, even if Segments Left equal 0, on the fast path.
=E2=80=A2 Can add an SRH on tra= nsmission, on the fast path

Even though strictly speaking the second and third bullet points aren= =E2=80=99t mutually exclusive, it=E2=80=99s a little difficult to imagine a= real router that would have both these properties simultaneously. Perhaps = I=E2=80=99m not being creative enough in imagining deployment scenarios? Since this scenario is claimed as an important reaso= n this problematic feature is needed, it would be great if someone who unde= rstands it would elucidate, thanks.

One further point, Ron says =E2=80=9CI wonder whether it is a good ide= a to stretch the IPv6 standard to accommodate IPv6-challenged devices.=E2= =80=9D I also wonder this, especially because these devices will have a rel= atively limited lifetime in the network.[*] I don=E2=80=99t find the cost/benefit attractive of making a permanent det= rimental change to the IPv6 architecture to accommodate a temporary deploym= ent issue.=C2=A0

Regards,

=E2=80=94John

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Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list= info/ipv6
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--0000000000002a8b87059fa5938c-- From nobody Fri Feb 28 08:47:50 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BF423A1B43; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:47:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0RtYx0fxnq-w; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:47:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22c.google.com (mail-lj1-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5400D3A1B48; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:47:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22c.google.com with SMTP id u26so3884889ljd.8; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:47:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=UgT8Tlu1u1BPo8hKp1yzXWUKXXY8CrHlLRqqrq0hFgw=; b=AApbHteQvYIS+bv1QXmYyE+JxE6My/ITIkd2CGoI38w6fa/NZpT0r/n1OsT3CVy+O+ UZ5kNCRtn1mKpmLhSMvSSBuI0R4Kvg8KppjcWZ0AeY4N2IaLL/ao+CufjHzWxgDZvnix ZfQRdKerxu/JG97JIXz/DrG81tcBv2i6uFErx43JtbCGvN6AVkYKo5JBE4jJJ0d1KeJQ NQofpuDT/S2Aq3HONxCCj0kwblUCIKgE2GhiilAEYgR9AEP3I7/KBfB49mHWEWbuX5Fr jsg2X8xe1ZaP/lEe+N84nQZBuO+5XZTCtsVtLcrM9IoSZPhRU/5ZDQq+Xwh0EituhUfN YbQw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=UgT8Tlu1u1BPo8hKp1yzXWUKXXY8CrHlLRqqrq0hFgw=; b=uQukIDx5OPdhzhgh/MOiY55OFvWAiZB/TL2VpxSkyxKxY4tbky/0oUbnZ42CIaZPK1 TuhUgnC263NXZX1Wjx/eoo6HqjeislEM8r5vnGikXbyu1/8FW3Voc+TONRUDqF5fOYE6 stka0PjlD50lMpFAWP5N9CYAumA8zpaaT2Zn/wU3uJu2hBp6kVeDj4UTjaVx0fr6wOiu NqXt5cog36Xdys6kXVDa2+G/vPP7pj2GRsONENSu/xbQYtRm9C94zN/XRwGoNC6Y1hlv i6NFyuq5edyP3mo3TWIMHSmZuYQDuaU4LQocffnA+d0gCvsbsElyya9GcgjyzYNf/ydW LgwA== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ18GzwgATdYhUgKPzs4KYl3ofNQfts39R5hPeI0OfO3PHvY8U1j BwbWBha0xJsBUB5TRXbfH60LcdDJwIK6oxImWCHC/ONX X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vuhTLM4cUEcb4YrivAkm+XdDLEN7t5bMfDiHRBchJbeOSl463UtkIrbNhusWbDsEx/MmCSxYyT4RDGsKITmasY= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:7c08:: with SMTP id x8mr3372260ljc.185.1582908449974; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:47:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <158248836511.1031.1350509839394231473@ietfa.amsl.com> <7481061F-75A5-4E4D-80AE-40E1F933E94A@cisco.com> <1BB7ED35-98EC-4A73-92A3-AD043D462CF7@steffann.nl> <97141983-EDF7-4C1E-A8F1-4ADCD345BC5A@cisco.com> <470E6DF4-0EF8-4EC8-8F84-1D5C84CEC5B9@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:47:17 -0800 Message-ID: To: Ron Bonica Cc: Robert Raszuk , John Scudder , SPRING WG , 6man WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000df6d6e059fa59720" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 16:47:43 -0000 --000000000000df6d6e059fa59720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ron, absolutely agree. And that is, in my opinion, question the authors of draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam must clarify in the document. AFAIK, Zafar and authors are working on the update to address WGLC comments. I'm looking forward to discuss the changes. Regards, Greg On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 8:37 AM Ron Bonica wrote: > > > Beyond that, SRv6 nodes examine the O-flag, even when Segments Left is > equal to 0. So, when the SRH is removed, O-flag functionality isn=E2=80= =99t > available at the ultimate segment endpoint. > > > > Ron > > > > > > *From:* spring *On Behalf Of *Greg Mirsky > *Sent:* Friday, February 28, 2020 11:22 AM > *To:* Robert Raszuk > *Cc:* John Scudder ; SPRING WG < > spring@ietf.org>; 6man WG > *Subject:* Re: [spring] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.txt > > > > Hi Robert, > > you've asked about a possible operational drawback of PSP. I think that > for OAM PSP has decremental effect on the usefulness of performance > measurements as there's no obvious information to identify the path a > packet traversed. > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 2:55 AM Robert Raszuk wrote: > > Hi John, > > > > > I have an additional observation, or question, about Dan=E2=80=99s scen= ario. > Almost all communication is bidirectional. > > > Presumably this means a router that=E2=80=99s the tail end of an SRv6 p= ath in > one direction is the head end in the other. > > > > While your observation is correct that most TCP connections are bidir SR > in a lot of cases can operate only in one direction. Needless to say it c= an > also be used with UDP streaming. > > > > To extend Ketan's OTT video example let me observe that in a lot of > transactions queries from clients are tiny and do not TE capabilities whi= le > responses are huge and bursty and may indeed benefit from special handlin= g. > > > > Sure if you think of applications like VPNs than you are right ... > regardless of the size of the packets proper tagging must occur in either > direction - but this is just one use of SRv6 perhaps not even the major > one. > > > > - - - > > > > Now as one friend just asked me offline - putting all IPv6 dogmas aside - > what is the technical issue with removing previously applied extension > header from the packet within a given operator's network ? What breaks wh= en > you do that ? > > > > Thx, > > R. > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 10:11 PM John Scudder 40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > I have an additional observation, or question, about Dan=E2=80=99s scenar= io... > Almost all communication is bidirectional. Presumably this means a router > that=E2=80=99s the tail end of an SRv6 path in one direction is the head = end in the > other. Doesn=E2=80=99t a head end need to add an SRH? If I=E2=80=99ve got= ten that right, > then we can extend Ron=E2=80=99s list with one more item. That is, appare= ntly the > ultimate segment endpoint: > > > =E2=80=A2 Can process a SID, received as an IPv6 DA, on the fast path > > =E2=80=A2 Cannot process an SRH on receipt, even if Segments Left equal 0= , on the > fast path. > > =E2=80=A2 Can add an SRH on transmission, on the fast path > > > > Even though strictly speaking the second and third bullet points aren=E2= =80=99t > mutually exclusive, it=E2=80=99s a little difficult to imagine a real rou= ter that > would have both these properties simultaneously. Perhaps I=E2=80=99m not = being > creative enough in imagining deployment scenarios? Since this scenario is > claimed as an important reason this problematic feature is needed, it wou= ld > be great if someone who understands it would elucidate, thanks. > > > > One further point, Ron says =E2=80=9CI wonder whether it is a good idea t= o stretch > the IPv6 standard to accommodate IPv6-challenged devices.=E2=80=9D I also= wonder > this, especially because these devices will have a relatively limited > lifetime in the network.[*] I don=E2=80=99t find the cost/benefit attract= ive of > making a permanent detrimental change to the IPv6 architecture to > accommodate a temporary deployment issue. > > > > Regards, > > > > =E2=80=94John > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > --000000000000df6d6e059fa59720 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Ron,
absolutely agree. And that is, in my opinion, = question the authors of draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam must clarify in the= document. AFAIK, Zafar and authors are working on the update to address WG= LC comments. I'm looking forward to discuss the changes.

=
Regards,
Greg

On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 8:37 AM Ron= Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net&= gt; wrote:

=C2=A0

Beyond that, SRv6 nodes examine the O-flag, even whe= n Segments Left is equal to 0. So, when the SRH is removed, O-flag function= ality isn=E2=80=99t available at the ultimate segment endpoint.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Ron

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Beha= lf Of Greg Mirsky
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2020 11:22 AM
To: Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net>
Cc: John Scudder <jgs=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>; SPRING WG &l= t;spring@ietf.org&= gt;; 6man WG <ipv6@ie= tf.org>
Subject: Re: [spring] I-D Action: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-pro= gramming-10.txt

=C2=A0

Hi Robert,

you've asked about a possible operational drawba= ck of PSP. I think that for OAM PSP has decremental effect on the usefulnes= s=C2=A0of performance measurements as there's no obvious information to= identify the path a packet traversed.

=C2=A0

Regards,

Greg

=C2=A0

On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 2:55 AM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net&= gt; wrote:

Hi John,

=C2=A0

> I have an additional observation, or question, = about Dan=E2=80=99s scenario. Almost all communication is bidirectional.=C2= =A0

> Presumably this means a router that=E2=80=99s t= he tail end of an SRv6 path in one direction is the head end in the other.= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

While your observation is correct that most TCP conn= ections are bidir SR in a lot of cases can operate only in one direction. N= eedless to say it can also be used with UDP streaming.=C2=A0<= /p>

=C2=A0

To extend Ketan's OTT video example let me obser= ve that in a lot of transactions queries from clients are tiny and do not T= E capabilities=C2=A0while responses are huge and bursty=C2=A0and may indeed= benefit from special handling.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Sure if you think of applications like VPNs than you= are right ... regardless of the size of the packets proper tagging must oc= cur in either direction - but this is just one use of SRv6 perhaps not even= the major one.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

- - -=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Now as one friend just asked me offline - putting al= l IPv6 dogmas aside - what is the technical issue with removing previously = applied extension header from the packet within a given operator's netw= ork ? What breaks when you do that ?=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Thx,

R.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 10:11 PM John Scudder <jg= s=3D40jun= iper.net@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

I have an additional observation, or question, about= Dan=E2=80=99s scenario... Almost all communication is bidirectional. Presu= mably this means a router that=E2=80=99s the tail end of an SRv6 path in on= e direction is the head end in the other. Doesn=E2=80=99t a head end need to add an SRH? If I=E2=80=99ve gotten that right, then we = can extend Ron=E2=80=99s list with one more item. That is, apparently the u= ltimate segment endpoint:
=C2=A0

=E2=80=A2 Can process a SID, received as an IPv6 DA,= on the fast path

=E2=80=A2 Cannot process an SRH on receipt, even if = Segments Left equal 0, on the fast path.

=E2=80=A2 Can add an SRH on transmission, on the fas= t path

=C2=A0

Even though strictly speaking the second and third b= ullet points aren=E2=80=99t mutually exclusive, it=E2=80=99s a little diffi= cult to imagine a real router that would have both these properties simulta= neously. Perhaps I=E2=80=99m not being creative enough in imagining deployment scenarios? Since this scenario is claimed as an impor= tant reason this problematic feature is needed, it would be great if someon= e who understands it would elucidate, thanks.

=C2=A0

One further point, Ron says =E2=80=9CI wonder whethe= r it is a good idea to stretch the IPv6 standard to accommodate IPv6-challe= nged devices.=E2=80=9D I also wonder this, especially because these devices= will have a relatively limited lifetime in the network.[*] I don=E2=80=99t find the cost/benefit attractive of making a permanent det= rimental change to the IPv6 architecture to accommodate a temporary deploym= ent issue.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

=E2=80=94John

=C2=A0

----------------------------------------------------= ----------------
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
ipv6@ietf.org
Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
--------------------------------------------------------------------=

=C2=A0

Juniper Business Use Only<= u>

--000000000000df6d6e059fa59720-- From nobody Fri Feb 28 08:53:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FA213A1BA4; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:53:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=orange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D-DFTbcrHi0T; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:53:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.66.41]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 621AA3A1B9B; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 08:53:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from opfedar03.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.5]) by opfedar27.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 48TbFb6T9tz2xyL; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 17:53:07 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=orange.com; s=ORANGE001; t=1582908787; bh=yG0hLVKhHRWVtu0OywjCg6pabLsnuFxFXbJJcWCRLPw=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; b=nNjM7Zj/Wg7izrlgCfkIqQ8xKxjNB+JuvoEE4gY9D3e1ESKYZDUYh51FvYv3m7aJC BJ83FLedmhTnpIe3QXC2Nr3vEWPKNp4qIrN9bYCtUXzy6FmQmbTwc66Fx4fXp5uZBy 3hpX9idX0szmwlMypS7wxz07qmMgkke7q0NMf+ZjARPD9/Vw8yuyMHkFskDEABq4W3 ZoPjuNCCwa0SVxW+uiywx7skYE2XJ5visOzuzKdpjq92s9Yhj/EGI7WoPEfUHU7me9 Y1emMKV0X4C6ULg5xkEwmQCgElrgzwi6DBai13af1ZK+YsgaEe5fcxG0fxqa0Sqfuq 0rlQUAPsvl5VQ== Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.48]) by opfedar03.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 48TbFb5J9gzCqlV; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 17:53:07 +0100 (CET) Received: from OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::b846:2467:1591:5d9d]) by OPEXCAUBM32.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0487.000; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 17:53:07 +0100 From: To: 'SPRING WG List' CC: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Topic: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Index: AdWrjZKMyJw/FcG0Qj29O28HuDn7+xCyRBPg Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 16:53:07 +0000 Message-ID: <5518_1582908787_5E594573_5518_436_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD1BCA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <17421_1575566127_5DE93B2F_17421_93_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D1A3DA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <17421_1575566127_5DE93B2F_17421_93_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D1A3DA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.245] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD1BCAOPEXCAUBM43corp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 16:53:23 -0000 --_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD1BCAOPEXCAUBM43corp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello SPRING WG, Please find below some status on the main points of this WG LC. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D A) PSP [1] & RFC 8200 [2] =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D This point is whether SRH removal by the penultimate SR end point (aka PSP)= is allowed by RFC 8200. More specifically " S14.4. Remove the SRH from the IPv6 extension header chain" Vs " Extension headers (except for the Hop-by-Hop Options header) are not processed, inserted, or deleted by any node along a packet's delivery path, until the packet reaches the node (or each of the set of nodes, in the case of multicast) identified in the Destination Address field of the IPv6 header." On this text, what is been discussed is "the node (or each of the set of no= des, in the case of multicast) identified in the Destination Address field of the IPv6 header." More specifically whether "Destination Address field of the IPv6 header" me= ans the "final Destination Address" or the "Destination Address" as seen in= the packet that the node received. [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-= 10#section-4.16.1 [2] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8200#section-4 It's clear that two different opinions have been expressed, sometimes stron= gly, sometimes repeatedly. The literal reading of RFC 8200 wording ("the Destination Address field of = the IPv6 header."), seem to allow PSP. At the very least, I don't find a ba= sis to block this PSP behavior. Finally, the responsible AD has not accepted the related errata. https://ma= ilarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/yVKxBF3VnJQkIRuM8lgWN4_G3-o/ Based on this, the plan is to flag this point of debate in the shepherd rep= ort, and leave this for the IESG to decide on how to read RFC 8200 (which r= epresented 6MAN consensus and which the IESG approved). The threat to appea= l will also be explicitly indicated (shepherd write up, point 10). Independently of RFC 8200, the question has been raised with regards to the= benefit of PSP. My take is that PSP is an optional data plane optimization. Judging its lev= el of usefulness is very hardware and implementation dependent. It may rang= e anywhere from "not needed" to "required for my platform" (deployed if you= are network operator, or been sold if you are a vendor), with possible int= ermediate points along "n% packet processing gain", or "required when combi= ned with a specific other feature". I don't think that the SPRING WG can re= ally evaluate this point (lack of hardware knowledge, lack of detailed info= rmation on the hardwares). The fact that this has been implemented by some = platforms and deployed by some operators, is, to me, an indication that it = is useful for those cases. (I believe that an English proverb is "the proof= of the pudding is in the eating". Although I'm certainly missing part of i= ts meaning and culture, in it's literal reading, it seems to apply). =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D B) confirmed WG interest and WG support to move forward =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Multiple/many "support" and "+1" have been expressed. There is clearly an interest from the WG on this document, and to have it p= rogressed. Note that there is no need for one to express his support multiple times. e= .g., by sending another "+1" when one has already expressed his support. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D C) clarifying/correcting the text in order to have common understanding and= interoperable implementations. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D WG is working on clarifying/correcting the text in order to have common und= erstanding and interoperable implementations. We should finalize this. This is taking a bit more time than unusual (although it really depends com= pared to which document, e.g., SRH draft). I'd like everyone to consider the specifics of the SRv6 work and this docum= ent: there may be cultural differences between people from the spring/rout= ing context and the 6man/Internet context. As such, someone coming from one= context may believe that point "A" is obvious and hence doesn't understand= why someone from another context seem to not understand it. I'd like every= one to make an effort on this. Let's remember that this point is about writing a technical specification w= hich is well understood by everyone, and minimizing interoperability risks. --> Let's please focus on this aspect. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D D) formal decision to advance this document =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D I'm listed as a contributor on this document (among 23 contributors). Even though I have zero specific write/modification privilege on the text i= n this document, and I'm not part of the authors email alias, this would no= t be ideal for me to take the decision to forward this document to the IESG= . I've discussed this with our AD (Martin) and he agreed to make the formal= decision to send the document to the next level. Thank you Martin. As an element of context, I handled this WG LC not for the fun of it or bec= ause I believed it would easy, but because we needed to advance this docume= nt and that Rob was not available to take that role. --Bruno From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of bruno.decraene@orang= e.com Sent: Thursday, December 5, 2019 6:15 PM To: 'SPRING WG List' Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Subject: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Hello SPRING, This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-spring-= srv6-network-programming [1]. Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent version, and = send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later than December 20. You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not duplica= ting emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which are only spring= specifics. If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically debated on= the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread for this point. This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this point and th= at other points get forgotten (or that the thread get converted into parall= el independent discussions) Thank you, Bruno [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-= 05 ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD1BCAOPEXCAUBM43corp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello SPRING WG,

 

Please find below some status on the main points of this WG LC.

 

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

A) PSP [1] & RFC 8200 [2]

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 

This point is whether SRH removal by the penultimate SR end point (aka PSP) is allowed by RFC 8200.

 

More specifically

" S14.4.   &nb= sp;  Remove the SRH from the IPv6 extension header chain"=

Vs

 "   Extension headers (except for the Hop-by-Hop Options header) are not=

   processed, inserted, or deleted by any node along a packet's deliver= y

   path, until the packet reaches the node (or each of the set of nodes= ,

   in the case of multicast) identified in the Destination Address fiel= d

   of the IPv6 header."

 

On this text, what is been discussed is "the node (or each of the set of nodes,

   in the case of multicast) identified in the Destination Address fiel= d

   of the IPv6 header."

More specifically whether "Destination Address field of the IPv6 header" means the "final Destination Address&q= uot; or the "Destination Address" as seen in the packet that the = node received.

 

[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-prog= ramming-10#section-4.16.1

[2] https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8200#section-4=

 

It's clear that two different opinions have been expressed, sometimes strongly, sometimes repeatedly.

The literal reading of RFC 8200 wording ("the Destination Address field of the IPv6 header."), seem to a= llow PSP. At the very least, I don't find a basis to block this PSP behavio= r.

Finally, the responsible AD has not accepted the related errata. https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/yVKxBF3VnJQ= kIRuM8lgWN4_G3-o/

 

Based on this, the plan is to flag this point of debate in the shepherd report, and leave this for the IESG to dec= ide on how to read RFC 8200 (which represented 6MAN consensus and which the= IESG approved). The threat to appeal will also be explicitly indicated (sh= epherd write up, point 10).

 

 

Independently of RFC 8200, the question has been raised with regards to the benefit of PSP.

My take is that PSP is an optional data plane optimization. Judging its level of usefulness is very hardware and i= mplementation dependent. It may range anywhere from "not needed" = to "required for my platform" (deployed if you are network operat= or, or been sold if you are a vendor), with possible intermediate points along "n% packet processing gain", or "= required when combined with a specific other feature". I don't think t= hat the SPRING WG can really evaluate this point (lack of hardware knowledg= e, lack of detailed information on the hardwares). The fact that this has been imple= mented by some platforms and deployed by some operators, is, to me, an indi= cation that it is useful for those cases. (I believe that an English prover= b is "the proof of the pudding is in the eating". Although I'm certainly missing part of its meaning an= d culture, in it's literal reading, it seems to apply).

 

 

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

B) confirmed WG interest and WG support to move forward

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 

Multiple/many "support" and "+1" have been expressed.

There is clearly an interest from the WG on this document, and to have it progressed.

 

Note that there is no need for one to express his support multiple times. e.g., by sending another "+1" wh= en one has already expressed his support.

 

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

C) clarifying/correcting the text in order to have common understanding and interoperable implementations.=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 

WG is working on clarifying/correcting the text in order to have common understanding and interoperable implementatio= ns. We should finalize this.

This is taking a bit more time than unusual (although it really depends compared to which document, e.g., SRH draft).<= o:p>

I'd like everyone to consider the specifics of the SRv6 work and this document: = there may be cultural differences between people from the spring/ro= uting context and the 6man/Internet context. As such, someone coming from o= ne context may believe that point "A" is obvious and hence doesn't understand why someone from another context seem= to not understand it. I'd like everyone to make an effort on this.

Let's remember that this point is about writing a technical specification which is well understood by everyone, an= d minimizing interoperability risks.

 

--> Let's please focus on this aspect.

 

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

D) formal decision to advance this document

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

I'm listed as a contributor on this document (among 23 contributors).

Even though I have zero specific write/modification privilege on the text in this document, and I'm not part of the authors em= ail alias, this would not be ideal for me to take the decision to forward t= his document to the IESG. I've discussed this with our AD (Martin) and he a= greed to make the formal decision to send the document to the next level. Thank you Martin.

As an element of context, I handled this WG LC not for the fun of it or because I believed it would easy, but becau= se we needed to advance this document and that Rob was not available to tak= e that role.

 

--Bruno

 

From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of bruno.decraene@ora= nge.com
Sent: Thursday, December 5, 2019 6:15 PM
To: 'SPRING WG List'
Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
Subject: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

 

Hello SPRING,
 
This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on draf=
t-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming [1].
 
Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent=
 version, and send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later than Decem=
ber 20.
 
You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consid=
er not duplicating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which a=
re only spring specifics.
 
If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifica=
lly debated on the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread for=
 this point.
This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to thi=
s point and that other points get forgotten (or that the thread get convert=
ed into parallel independent discussions)
 
Thank you,
Bruno
 
[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-=
srv6-network-programming-05
 

 

_________________________________________=
___________________________________________________________________________=
_____
 
Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent =
contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent don=
c
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sa=
ns autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signa=
ler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que l=
es pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alterati=
on,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce=
 message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
 
This message and its attachments may cont=
ain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or c=
opied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error,=
 please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.=

As emails may be altered, Orange is not l=
iable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.
______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden=
tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu=
 ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el=
ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou =
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf=
ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele=
te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been =
modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.
--_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD1BCAOPEXCAUBM43corp_-- From nobody Fri Feb 28 09:19:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36EE23A0C2C; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 09:19:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=orange.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NY_JPNCHKixx; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 09:19:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-inet.orange.com [80.12.70.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC1E43A1C39; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 09:19:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from opfednr04.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.68]) by opfednr27.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 48Tbqg4JPvz4wBc; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 18:19:11 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=orange.com; s=ORANGE001; t=1582910351; bh=kW9TBEPp+6T+IQCcYvdUGdSzrHDzhRLflknIoD9+EcM=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; b=R5sdY7kiASz1KP3+v+xcFLMrc2gX/qDz7JpKs+J/hc1fa5RroDsx5RgRgVhfR0g76 ZVp8kjc7KtrBn/VYW2Qf6bsmAy3mkPEAj+eNUnQkL2NWbM/KpaLEv68+pKQfvVD7u0 FLRF8uyPkKfNIlnCzgn7mODaFNCiEMRS3gd6n1u9Zn8pWVh4wFwVvTSfY9gx+oIca1 2JetW9QrO2vz0S0+l1Cop8vzBHi9LKv15jtzLrI6YPAn7rZjCZnlQRvv7iK0a3wfwV ebGF1CvZ201pqii80gVSYJO+KtsJj6dU8+m6p9nAxu95ri8yMX0SqB5EuxYzNfksT4 T/B8ZgrVw2tow== Received: from Exchangemail-eme6.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.13.64]) by opfednr04.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 48Tbqg317dz1xq5; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 18:19:11 +0100 (CET) Received: from OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::b846:2467:1591:5d9d]) by OPEXCAUBMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0487.000; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 18:19:11 +0100 From: To: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming , "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" CC: Brian E Carpenter , 'SPRING WG List' Thread-Topic: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Index: AdWrjZKMyJw/FcG0Qj29O28HuDn7+xCyhYFA Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 17:19:10 +0000 Message-ID: <21607_1582910351_5E594B8F_21607_111_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD1C51@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <17421_1575566127_5DE93B2F_17421_93_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D1A3DA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <17421_1575566127_5DE93B2F_17421_93_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D1A3DA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.245] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD1C51OPEXCAUBM43corp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 17:19:22 -0000 --_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD1C51OPEXCAUBM43corp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pablo, authors, WG, Section 4.16.1 [1] is the subject of multiple comments and clarification qu= estions. Most notably some comments from Brian. Its current text is very focused on the technical specification. Technical = specification is good and this is the primary objective to achieve interope= rability. But some would say that it is a bit terse, especially given the a= mount of context behind it. So I think that it could benefit from some intr= oduction text. Could you work on some text to better introduce PSP and put it in context? = Possibly working with Brian who is kind enough to work on improving the cla= rity of this section for everyone. Quoting Brian "simply need more explanation in elementary terms". I personally have a few points in mind: - Clarifying what "Penultimate" refers to. This is required as the= re are multiple reading such "penultimate IPv6/SRv6 transit node" (which we= all agree is not allowed by RFC 8200, so let's make things clear that the = document is not talking or suggesting or allowing this) or "penultimate SR = Segment Endpoint Node indicated in the IPv6 destination address of the rece= ived IPv6 header". - Clarify what you mean by "Pop". (as this terminology is heavily = borrowed from MPLS and may not be crystal clear for everyone, especially si= nce the MPLS RFC is not a normative reference (and it should not be)) - Clarify that given the nodes A-B-C, the PSP flavor is done by p= enultimate Segment Endpoint "B" at the request of the IPv6 source node "A" = as an outsourced service from the ultimate SR End Point "C". "A", "B" and "= C" been within the same control domain. Agreed that this is not changing anything in the spec, and may be obvious t= o you, and hopefully clear for people having read the relevant document, ho= wever from the comments it seems clear that some additional context may hel= p to clarify. Also it's plausible that some persons may only read this spec= ific PSP section and react on it. Thank you, --Bruno [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-= 10#section-4.16.1 From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of bruno.decraene@orang= e.com Sent: Thursday, December 5, 2019 6:15 PM To: 'SPRING WG List' Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Subject: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Hello SPRING, This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-spring-= srv6-network-programming [1]. Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent version, and = send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later than December 20. You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not duplica= ting emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which are only spring= specifics. If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically debated on= the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread for this point. This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this point and th= at other points get forgotten (or that the thread get converted into parall= el independent discussions) Thank you, Bruno [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-= 05 ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. --_000_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD1C51OPEXCAUBM43corp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Pablo, authors, WG,

 

Section 4.16.1 [1] is the subject of multiple comments and clarification questions. Most notably some comments from Bria= n.

 

Its current text is very focused on the technical specification. Technical specification is good and this is the p= rimary objective to achieve interoperability. But some would say that it is= a bit terse, especially given the amount of context behind it. So I think = that it could benefit from some introduction text.

 

Could you work on some text to better introduce PSP and put it in context? Possibly working with Brian who is kind enough = to work on improving the clarity of this section for everyone.

Quoting Brian “simply need more explanation in elementary terms”.

 

I personally have a few points in mind:

- &nb= sp;        Clarifying what “Penultimate” refers to. This is required as there are multiple reading such “penu= ltimate IPv6/SRv6 transit node” (which we all agree is not allowed by= RFC 8200, so let’s make things clear that the document is not talkin= g or suggesting or allowing this) or “penultimate SR Segment Endpoint Node indicated in the IPv6 destination address of the = received IPv6 header”.

- &nb= sp;        Clarify what you mean by “Pop”. (as this terminology is heavily borrowed from MPLS and may not be crystal = clear for everyone, especially since the MPLS RFC is not a normative refere= nce (and it should not be))

- &nb= sp;        Clarify that given the nodes A—B—C,  the PSP flavor is done by pen= ultimate Segment Endpoint “B” at the request of the IPv6 source= node “A” as an outsourced service from the ultimate SR End Poi= nt “C”. “A”, “B” and “C” be= en within the same control domain.

 

Agreed that this is not changing anything in the spec, and may be obvious to you, and hopefully clear for people hav= ing read the relevant document, however from the comments it seems clear th= at some additional context may help to clarify. Also it’s plausible t= hat some persons may only read this specific PSP section and react on it.

 

Thank you,

--Bruno

 

[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sp= ring-srv6-network-programming-10#section-4.16.1

 

 

From: ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of bruno.decraene@ora= nge.com
Sent: Thursday, December 5, 2019 6:15 PM
To: 'SPRING WG List'
Cc: 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
Subject: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

 

Hello SPRING,
 
This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on draf=
t-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming [1].
 
Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent=
 version, and send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later than Decem=
ber 20.
 
You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consid=
er not duplicating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which a=
re only spring specifics.
 
If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifica=
lly debated on the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread for=
 this point.
This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to thi=
s point and that other points get forgotten (or that the thread get convert=
ed into parallel independent discussions)
 
Thank you,
Bruno
 
[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-=
srv6-network-programming-05
 

 

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amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=steffann.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N8kREQlQ-C7z; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 11:22:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sintact.nl (mail.sintact.nl [83.247.10.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5218D3A0964; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 11:22:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F66A49; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 20:21:47 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=steffann.nl; h= x-mailer:references:in-reply-to:date:date:subject:subject :mime-version:content-type:content-type:message-id:from:from :received:received; s=mail; t=1582917705; bh=N0j9TCaAVONsLYh2ePC AGQQtEks0m7H4CRPj3nQFoJY=; b=PCi03FAWwIP9UeCSUNDbWs6iIeCrzMmB5yc JXBwfRZdWbzbJHV2rDVR2ox+XUnf6E7BxHSfQ15AQQG9hdRzSgB4j94f5SOMrS+O 5MGoPb4JvGd8e+ONxK+qTVgpsM37yI9AjVP/z/LK1SElSqzPGQWhPt/eaR729fUf nq4P65aE= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.sintact.nl Received: from mail.sintact.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.sintact.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id qbDvDwv0TF_a; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 20:21:45 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:d99f:7257:bc1b:f895] (unknown [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:d99f:7257:bc1b:f895]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CA32F3C; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 20:21:44 +0100 (CET) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann Message-Id: <4E0021BE-B0A1-4B61-B201-EB45AC9CE8E2@steffann.nl> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_5CC30291-7367-4A79-8698-43163888B067"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3594.4.19\)) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 20:21:43 +0100 In-Reply-To: Cc: Ron Bonica , SPRING WG List , 6man WG To: Robert Raszuk References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3594.4.19) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Progressing draft-ietf-spring-network-programming: Finding a compromise X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 19:22:27 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_5CC30291-7367-4A79-8698-43163888B067 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, > I love your definition of "compromise": "You do what we tell you to do". It's called "respecting the feedback from the working group" Cheers, Sander --Apple-Mail=_5CC30291-7367-4A79-8698-43163888B067 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEl13OIanoifT0p8LWWPjdc9pon8sFAl5ZaEcACgkQWPjdc9po n8sygxAAyI+HnpPPHkwhGga3J36IJrOK82p75DWb4tvHTpxChCdWN2TZ/AkBz8BO u7scfbzIn4YdxyUT81N1BZk4xEe1PBTGs+FCm+i3uOG1Y7Do6AWCeNe/uKyUUT55 eRLKIbtRo4SgD1Wq6Rkd8v8s4p9jIfHHaw4SmP/ik7m9GUYEZe7Q2vKonlk0Y4w7 5hHnzN/6518hvdEuZ/yeoxyQ+GE1zBPJeuB56mtgQcZsec57NYe1NP38D/Gl/Nvq Tf3aHvvD6/F1nNl9oCe1TmSL5hiUFprjn0dlOTi75+btzbPSPk5Pc2cCTWQuPxyV KqAYK6sALL1/yRLIjs7xHxZuArKr24/tyrMMtLa66AbGyFbmb4TdgDapd+tVTy1R uda41caitNUCfxw6tuQlAEUO5e4QytS6QrR3fXQyKGHVMrP0uI1zO4vQzWmGgwV5 hX7eW43uD9mSSW36iyqPO10yDfVCia01vLH5vCgPp2+nbJGGX3En+FqYkCXR+Snn J+9Z5138ZD8AVK/uloL+Xg1KVBbQLCNxPDAkMUqOI5R6ZSZJRH5Y2yDFV8Cu9ArN ogTXE6rVIGpZNR3WzHjYpb5jixxZVXIICFh38gHqDPtqbFV6VBy0QI8AZe4k3IXG NbfTJbfTDSKzBR3/W9uKiuFZH9MVg2HhtRxX9BnAhZUkSctC+a8= =hhRC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_5CC30291-7367-4A79-8698-43163888B067-- From nobody Fri Feb 28 11:28:26 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED3143A19BE; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 11:28:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lE9ioVrDjC9n; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 11:28:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4FB483A19A7; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 11:28:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (unknown [181.45.84.85]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B194582D4D; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 20:28:12 +0100 (CET) To: bruno.decraene@orange.com, 'SPRING WG List' Cc: draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming , rtg-ads References: <17421_1575566127_5DE93B2F_17421_93_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D1A3DA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5518_1582908787_5E594573_5518_436_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD1BCA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <99ad1c26-55e4-6c07-c896-60b0f4d9c54a@gont.com.ar> Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 16:27:44 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5518_1582908787_5E594573_5518_436_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD1BCA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 19:28:24 -0000 Bruno, On 28/2/20 13:53, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote: > Hello SPRING WG, > > Please find below some status on the main points of this WG LC. > > =============== > > A) PSP [1] & RFC 8200 [2] > > =============== > > This point is whether SRH removal by the penultimate SR end point (aka > PSP) is allowed by RFC 8200. > > More specifically > > " S14.4.Remove the SRH from the IPv6 extension header chain" > > Vs > > "Extension headers (except for the Hop-by-Hop Options header) are not > processed, inserted, or deleted by any node along a packet's delivery > path, until the packet reaches the node (or each of the set of nodes, > in the case of multicast) identified in the Destination Address field > of the IPv6 header." > > On this text, what is been discussed is "the node (or each of the set of > nodes, > > in the case of multicast) identified in the Destination Address field > > of the IPv6 header." > > More specifically whether "Destination Address field of the IPv6 header" > means the "final Destination Address" or the "Destination Address" as > seen in the packet that the node received. If it meant "Destination Address", that would mean multicast addresses, would be allowed in routing headers. Do you think htat's the case? [...] > Finally, the responsible AD has not accepted the related errata. > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ipv6/yVKxBF3VnJQkIRuM8lgWN4_G3-o/ The status of this erratum is found here: https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5933 -- not on the mailing-list archive. And the erratum is marked as "reported", not as "rejected". Suresh may well go ahead and reject it. BUt so far the status has not changed since I've reported it. > Based on this, the plan is to flag this point of debate in the shepherd > report, and leave this for the IESG to decide on how to read RFC 8200 > (which represented 6MAN consensus and which the IESG approved). The > threat to appeal will also be explicitly indicated (shepherd write up, > point 10). I have *noted* a number of times that I would appeal (so *please* do note that a number of people felt that the specs were being violated *and* that our processes were being circumvented). But I've never *threatened* to appeal. A quick lookup in a dictionary says: "threat" noun 1. a statement of an intention to inflict pain, injury, damage, or other hostile action on someone in retribution for something done or not done. 2. a person or thing likely to cause damage or danger. Clearly, there was no "threat". I did indicate that one of our specs was being violated, and that our processes were being circumvented (in the same way that I'm quite curious how you can claim consensus on this document, but.. ). That says, appeals are part of our processes. I have no idea whatsoever how, sticking to our processes could be considered a threat. Quite the contrary, the intention is for our existing specs and procedures to be respected. If *that* is considered a threat, that's a different question. > > Independently of RFC 8200, the question has been raised with regards to > the benefit of PSP. > > My take is that PSP is an optional data plane optimization. Judging its > level of usefulness is very hardware and implementation dependent. It > may range anywhere from "not needed" to "required for my platform" > (deployed if you are network operator, or been sold if you are a > vendor), with possible intermediate points along "n% packet processing > gain", or "required when combined with a specific other feature". I > don't think that the SPRING WG can really evaluate this point (lack of > hardware knowledge, lack of detailed information on the hardwares). Am I reading correctly? Are you kind of stating that the same working group that is shipoing this document doesn't have enough of a clue to analyze the benefits (or lack thereof) of PSP? And, because of that, you make the assessment yourself? > =============== > > I'm listed as a contributor on this document (among 23 contributors). > > Even though I have zero specific write/modification privilege on the > text in this document, and I'm not part of the authors email alias, this > would not be ideal for me to take the decision to forward this document > to the IESG. I've discussed this with our AD (Martin) and he agreed to > make the formal decision to send the document to the next level. Thank > you Martin. Indeed, this could be seen as a possible conflict of interests. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From nobody Fri Feb 28 11:51:47 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A14AB3A1CD1; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 11:51:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=steffann.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OaDLLWFyjNOU; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 11:51:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sintact.nl (mail.sintact.nl [83.247.10.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0A2643A1CA6; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 11:51:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id C852752; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 20:51:09 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=steffann.nl; h= x-mailer:references:in-reply-to:date:date:subject:subject :mime-version:content-type:content-type:message-id:from:from :received:received; s=mail; t=1582919467; bh=T82eBqZCOknbkPIwluz rCHs3d8dtJBjTWlDxQGrVqLM=; b=i9XDxftuLP/x+7eXzrYEb/pJnkOiN5UMCPx PX6vJMWXS7vY2O+yhY0TLMg4qDigQzJ8WI/VIvEd/H8TNhW3egshJLZ3O2LZlnOt XWsdfU8tUPx/2lMzKzWelfSsHk+QSGKhs+zD4HWuBh7cWMcYfsiKbsXciDz06tV/ u9LYNWkg= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.sintact.nl Received: from mail.sintact.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.sintact.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id fKtPAWOzsMho; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 20:51:07 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:d99f:7257:bc1b:f895] (unknown [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:ce80:d99f:7257:bc1b:f895]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 292E751; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 20:51:07 +0100 (CET) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A813335C-330B-4709-A2C6-7FFC18E5C6B5"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3594.4.19\)) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 20:51:05 +0100 In-Reply-To: <5518_1582908787_5E594573_5518_436_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD1BCA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Cc: SPRING WG List , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming , 6man WG To: bruno.decraene@orange.com References: <17421_1575566127_5DE93B2F_17421_93_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D1A3DA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5518_1582908787_5E594573_5518_436_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD1BCA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3594.4.19) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 19:51:46 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A813335C-330B-4709-A2C6-7FFC18E5C6B5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > D) formal decision to advance this document > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > I'm listed as a contributor on this document (among 23 contributors). > Even though I have zero specific write/modification privilege on the = text in this document, and I'm not part of the authors email alias, this = would not be ideal for me to take the decision to forward this document = to the IESG. I've discussed this with our AD (Martin) and he agreed to = make the formal decision to send the document to the next level. Thank = you Martin. > As an element of context, I handled this WG LC not for the fun of it = or because I believed it would easy, but because we needed to advance = this document and that Rob was not available to take that role. Wait, what?! There is no "we needed to advance this document" in the = IETF or any other consensus based forum... Based on the discussions on = the mailing list (including questions on why PSP is so important that we = can't take it out for now which have never been clearly answered by the = authors) I can't see you can possibly declare consensus. If there is going to be an appeal I will certainly put my signature on = it. I also find the behaviour of the WG chairs does not befit their = responsibilities. Appalling. Sander --Apple-Mail=_A813335C-330B-4709-A2C6-7FFC18E5C6B5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEl13OIanoifT0p8LWWPjdc9pon8sFAl5ZbykACgkQWPjdc9po n8vLEg/9GUMjPlv6UxoxZOev+psL0EKX0Q3hLOZtMkLpGfiKObyiioyBtgadopQx p1V65OSDSEclv73C3mxjXDI1RQp8hNkx9Eyu1Mk1ZysWqcPs0YateHTyO5iwxB0f 5xVTgznNKoACNGFGZ2Uua6PuwtCfCrKLs6yfIDWv4gOugubdwaeDb/2i1XWghgSb OSo1y82JRuHiIKbPGsrnDfupThNBu36byLdpY4GBOt+7O8S+r2cgl1gneRIoTX67 f9SRA26co2Zj8rtRUcWFzlOkT+d9evkoXKTxeRdJMwRcJ0ZdYX8oN0IjqnFq5+DG hpG/o6oK9RFCuFql2nFAuxYURd+K4nBeWqFfXtwdbrVRDxv7HOvCgM7vwQ67cJKr 5GnUP6/F7o/VHPzw2AVhPZy/q6ASrtVXYsEyJuU88iVCKGyDLTiOQebMcnTj2Q2d XJmMXLU95fc6So++41Isr9egrLGdHlzDCW23re59uSMwLNUSb1qfTYTGmeofEeFJ FtpvVZfB01GJHBdHW6Md7I5tkquNYqrdgg5QvWBSRYRAlKPTqkPcciSRlPHShF/N KiXBHhcfQRRAfFfJkL1A+nZMQ94NyznswivFXcNTpQRhHDnhnR62/tqLr9sdC2ie sJfkA5aaXExbuPFA7SgT0nu0G4Vh9GuJlyHBO5l+1rmGV+fhPHU= =YNG4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_A813335C-330B-4709-A2C6-7FFC18E5C6B5-- From nobody Fri Feb 28 11:55:05 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FDF93A1D0F for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 11:54:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qE3DpDFPVNSh for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 11:54:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x843.google.com (mail-qt1-x843.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::843]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 643EC3A1D0A for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 11:54:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x843.google.com with SMTP id j34so2969114qtk.4 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 11:54:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=uHgSyTkwcNkxnYvq8Z3dGeUU0qvlOeKzMAljw1lAjD0=; b=bkgLmB+CJGuEeOh/+EC8Kvmea4vvMFFbNKHIDTxbODEYcwqoeVOd6Zc37UScMAlt+k m7GbTRwO9ej7jTRj8e+wyH+dMD4YdemuLCRYWE+ehllKMHp78tE/79IBwZN2cO9FTIqU Ci4uMtGHF/tQgbBR2pbi9PGj2W3y3DS5oG3OmxwWUpj07vP4VEI6SaEjDJoetNJNeElK W03ECiNc92jdVL+jkxmm02x7O00WZolcwy6fjp5huF1Y7BreMtO7oNkE0Gf7ThPeflfG IJssQE6nsGWGUiZuRR+8TEeMwqymUKWGtLQ6TXTW4rrmwlymyq6/Imfk3TJfGcBz6rb4 ZfAg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=uHgSyTkwcNkxnYvq8Z3dGeUU0qvlOeKzMAljw1lAjD0=; b=D1SSHNn6yWFrDCdp2OcInmUz7P1zu0w2OovAyXTjB6P2EnyXkL5ZpbM8jNvaGnTPOd NZLbV1xvvn6tGZDCzfAkb3LEbcVIyqlxvQ0qDpDJyFCWWzq/PwriSg39djRGOW6rwV1c av+MFZecRo+gaXpnvAbah/CjCi5PTzSUMjSpffWnGgVpNE9T6sMLE7bWeURd1gQ1Ia7B j+80jlLSg934A/bNe+44VdVwxv0BRSV5NcSzPTHuCE7kZ3eiRQ51K+1IFG2M9CzQzW7+ gUS8kbZ5HEvP12UiqJQKMfp7TyHZ7hf4GA2LXWXNwg77titWh5ZS0Tsi0QHmTXzlRPyk 1HWw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXDORph37v+LjBJuz6Zu5Ro6j45A9zkL8q6ZeTiUfdv9B5q1bVb Q4FWMLtsLOkCMX0xawkYsqe3LhQnbFiz+VCPgr3n4Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwAI5P7m9CBcQ+VqwlagKH+grNPImrSN2g5+PUqkvvDwnDN3DlNoprfhP6BUP9OZWhMOvv/1JTd4B82Z1NHpmk= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:7751:: with SMTP id g17mr5654196qtu.77.1582919691303; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 11:54:51 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <199B7645-A2AC-4E1A-9E6E-7638A200BE80@steffann.nl> In-Reply-To: From: Warren Kumari Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:54:14 -0500 Message-ID: To: Robert Raszuk Cc: James Guichard , 6man WG , SPRING WG List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] RFC8200 update? X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 19:55:01 -0000 On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 9:02 AM Robert Raszuk wrote: > > > interestingly enough MPLS took the same approach > > Well not really. As you know, MPLS unicast and multicast have a new ether= type. And this is a critical distinction -- Brian Carpenter's limited domain document (draft-carpenter-limited-domains) says: "Domain boundaries that are defined administratively (e.g. by address filtering rules in routers) are prone to leakage caused by human error, especially if the limited domain traffic appears otherwise normal to the boundary routers. In this case, the network operator needs to take active steps to protect the boundary. This form of leakage is much less likely if nodes must be explicitly configured to handle a given limited domain protocol, for example by installing a specific protocol handler." > > SRv6 folks were just too nice and thought to leverage 0x86DD. I think tha= t was a mistake. I further think we should fix it. > > Cheers, > R. > > On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 2:44 PM James Guichard wrote: >> >> Hi Sander, >> >> RFC8402 explicitly says in section 8 security considerations that "by de= fault, the explicit routing information MUST NOT be leaked through the boun= daries of the administered domain". The intent therefore seems clear that "= global internet" does not apply; interestingly enough MPLS took the same ap= proach and has been widely deployed for years. >> >> Respectfully, >> >> Jim >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: spring On Behalf Of Sander Steffann >> Sent: Friday, February 28, 2020 8:25 AM >> To: Wang, Weibin (NSB - CN/Shanghai) >> Cc: SPRING WG List ; 6man WG ; Andrew Al= ston >> Subject: Re: [spring] RFC8200 update? >> >> Hi, >> >> > In the bearer of srv6 traffic, srv6 domain is only one part of the who= le packet journey. Because the srv6 domain is trusted by single operator, i= t is no necessary for the outer IPv6 header (for performing SRH function) t= o inherit all IPv6 extension headers specially designed for the initial end= -to-end IPv6 communication, for example, the AH is not must for outer IPv6 = header and its SRH. Therefore, the outer IPv6 processing of srv6 traffic ca= n appropriately relax the restrictions, that is to say, the outer IPv6 enca= psulation only inherits a part of IPv6 spec. >> >> No. It uses IPv6 and must therefore follow the rules of IPv6. What I pro= pose is to update IPv6 to make this possible, but you can't break the rules= in a standard without consensus that the rules can be changed. >> >> > For example, it is allowed to perform functions such as PSP within SRv= 6 domain; Could we treat IPv6 headers function of internal and external la= yers differently, after all, their purposes are different. >> >> Let's not use implicit definitions of "internal" and "external" layers. = They don't make sense in a global protocol (and despite your claims that SR= v6 is limited to a specific domain, it really isn't. It uses global IPv6 ad= dresses and can traverse the global internet). Let's define global rules th= at apply to everybody instead, and standardise this behaviour. >> >> Cheers, >> Sander >> >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- --=20 I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf From nobody Fri Feb 28 12:13:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC3CB3A1D3E; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 12:13:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sX2fdRNJzWeo; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 12:13:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0323C3A1D3D; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 12:13:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (unknown [181.45.84.85]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D570A831D8; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 21:13:28 +0100 (CET) To: Sander Steffann , bruno.decraene@orange.com Cc: SPRING WG List , 6man WG , draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming References: <17421_1575566127_5DE93B2F_17421_93_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D1A3DA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5518_1582908787_5E594573_5518_436_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD1BCA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <9b677b7c-fe52-dbae-7f83-2b5be5194325@gont.com.ar> Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 17:13:07 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 20:13:38 -0000 On 28/2/20 16:51, Sander Steffann wrote: [...] > > If there is going to be an appeal I will certainly put my signature on it. Thank you. FWIW, I have already started drafting the appeal, and going through the list archive to find both the technical and procedural objections to be raised. I'll be contacting many of you during the next few days to get the text together. > I also find the behaviour of the WG chairs does not befit their responsibilities. I agree. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From nobody Fri Feb 28 14:04:15 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15A233A1ED0 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:04:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=elandsys.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2PtyAGG7dbZ9 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:04:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.elandsys.com (mx.elandsys.com [162.213.2.210]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 538CF3A1ECE for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:04:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from DESKTOP-K6V9C2L.elandsys.com ([102.116.105.122]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.15.2/8.14.5) with ESMTPSA id 01SM3ogM028168 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:04:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1582927442; x=1583013842; i=@elandsys.com; bh=WabM5QV00GmkORJUewkEDwQp+DQuvyxx26I2yrKVPkY=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:Cc:In-Reply-To:References; b=oEh6y/Bs+IqnXyB1R2sCpSktssCzk/ErT2KvBbPc63nWh5XztVGkC7SGees/WrQ1T 1h1GoPLDY5nYNH0ukYgoLLolqRoO3s5ZAtU2ekznTT8cAlM2ihW4p3+fWjzJJ0/ZHM VftcR1rah6EGW2DwIcs9cb4VYWCP9eQKypFupCYI= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20200228132634.1060a610@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:02:38 -0800 To: Martin Vigoureux From: S Moonesamy Cc: spring@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <9b677b7c-fe52-dbae-7f83-2b5be5194325@gont.com.ar> References: <17421_1575566127_5DE93B2F_17421_93_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D1A3DA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5518_1582908787_5E594573_5518_436_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD1BCA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <9b677b7c-fe52-dbae-7f83-2b5be5194325@gont.com.ar> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 22:04:13 -0000 Dear Mr Vigoureux, I am contacting you as you are listed as the Responsible Area Director for the SPRING Working Group [1]. I would like to thank the Working Group for providing some information [2] about the status of the Working Group Last Call. I was a bit surprised to see that one of the Working Group Chairs is listed as a contributor in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10. It is quite unusual to have the contributor of a Working Group document handle the Working Group process for the document. Would there be a potential conflict of interest? The summary provides by the Working Group Chair states that the Responsible Area Director "has not accepted the related errata". I took a quick look at erratum eid5933; it is listed as "Reported". As the erratum has not been classified as per the relevant IESG Statement, describing it as "not accepted" is inaccurate. Regards, S. Moonesamy 1. https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/spring/about/ 2. https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/or8086G4iYfee5_Icw4PnhkPLBo/ 3. https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5933 From nobody Fri Feb 28 14:39:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietf.org Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A6143A1F47; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:35:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , Cc: martin.vigoureux@nokia.com, spring@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.119.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <158292932702.19931.3152777047472520855@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:35:27 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [spring] spring - Requested sessions have been scheduled for IETF 107 X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 22:35:34 -0000 Dear Bruno Decraene, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. spring Session 1 (2:00 requested) Monday, 23 March 2020, Afternoon Session II 1550-1750 Room Name: Regency D size: 300 --------------------------------------------- spring Session 2 (2:00 requested) Thursday, 26 March 2020, Morning Session I 1000-1200 Room Name: Regency D size: 300 --------------------------------------------- iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/107/sessions/spring.ics Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Source Packet Routing in Networking Area Name: Routing Area Session Requester: Bruno Decraene Number of Sessions: 2 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours, 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 200 Conflicts to Avoid: Technology Overlap: 6man mpls lsr idr pce Key Participant Conflict: v6ops opsec People who must be present: Bruno Decraene Martin Vigoureux Rob Shakir Resources Requested: Special Requests: If it's not possible to address all conflicts, chairs will try to schedule 6MAN (v6ops, opsec) related content in the first session and MPLS related content during the second session. --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Fri Feb 28 14:41:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F8F83A20C0 for ; 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Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:37:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=XoUT6PfV3q8SDbGlskaB1jsLeKuDwna4MrDHHPp81Q4=; b=MKafGHjIjxfLTVbhH8ZoUnCYUwli7WJvuZ7wGAl+mmnnDESzyVQpwVl7o+yD0IlKWR Fq/ZMwN/bNbV6W1y0KihK26hBb1Liq/LrUeNiLp1Md8KF6nm8cKs4BWNx5WskAfhrZkc 88faJ+UIUhlT5U7cZSQDxmGl8kEasnr8r5wUKKX5qFp/7WidKZTeHp/OAui6/m6NqD9W xakAKw1Klua7MU9i9iNFp6P/QAYFpEZv0bVS/GXptOwyNfZGGMTZLRy/v4ktp16iEhCQ f2eMKTvR7QU8M9Jgy3nT9+vczdR6LkuPunYmMR6HKByoG6byPUcEpQE+xsQwmGTOoByW CqzQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=XoUT6PfV3q8SDbGlskaB1jsLeKuDwna4MrDHHPp81Q4=; b=JX7o9Y0mqN1YsHgsQxungqUzFT5IXJLIT5CeGqNw6chy8ONpvLdODp7izGXYxkaIkF DXG9PD0FF4auevZdD8kPKUWA6C3OpgZOZXtfPkDuDHNR2LAT4zjHfrJARR7Q6s02XMgX +1KUGXEBqaP0swkoBMpfQ3NzxhIoSg/DHbfUAqsyPI+M6VXwaogvBnUYDzZa9JavqdaE 7E8NXbBSSfnfcyb24hkh0c4/suA4k+QVoPy2rKr920KAJHMiziR/9wZFd3bEWkwhyYrX 8+Z8wIBij7lEew0qQu9Nu5ZO2coSto3badeZU11uPlEt/eAvRJP7KGXNGagGTwoX6Du6 jzng== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUWwAFhCdopCJrGNVtq63DWjXQHPhNxqjtfYJml1Ym1LsMjeW0D hlWrkfzS+rAdX0vDRersm45kbhLWKCSVYdINGLpB6Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw6726g7KCBdgS/Lk5nDvGqkmn+vPlKsJWY+3MFLY+Jke0sfP+Kd9ERB5e9q+NSHsg2LyTwmVEEEnob/jpm8nU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:611:: with SMTP id y17mr4599041oih.146.1582929424734; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:37:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <17421_1575566127_5DE93B2F_17421_93_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D1A3DA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5518_1582908787_5E594573_5518_436_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD1BCA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <9b677b7c-fe52-dbae-7f83-2b5be5194325@gont.com.ar> <6.2.5.6.2.20200228132634.1060a610@elandnews.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20200228132634.1060a610@elandnews.com> From: Robert Raszuk Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 23:36:55 +0100 Message-ID: To: S Moonesamy Cc: Martin Vigoureux , SPRING WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000010ee02059faa7ad3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 22:37:16 -0000 --00000000000010ee02059faa7ad3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear Mr Moonesamy, Let me state that your accusations of Bruno's conflict of interest are simply absurd. You can count on one hand such chairs like Bruno who not only know very well technology in the WG they are chairing, but also take a very neutral position in accepting or progressing any work by the WG. I know Bruno for over 20 years and never would even think for a second to send such nonsense blast. Last time I checked IETF does not prohibit chairs to be part of WG documents. His information about 6man AD not accepting the Errata: 5933 is correct. Errata must be first accepted by an AD then processed further. Since it was posted on 11th Dec 2019 it was still not accepted at first stage. You are mixing AD acceptance / validation with IESG decision. Those are completely different errata processing phases. I understand when someone is not able to make any further technical arguments, personal attacks start. Awesome ! Have a nice weekend, RR. On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 11:04 PM S Moonesamy wrote: > Dear Mr Vigoureux, > > I am contacting you as you are listed as the Responsible Area > Director for the SPRING Working Group [1]. I would like to thank the > Working Group for providing some information [2] about the status of > the Working Group Last Call. > > I was a bit surprised to see that one of the Working Group Chairs is > listed as a contributor in > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10. It is quite unusual > to have the contributor of a Working Group document handle the > Working Group process for the document. Would there be a potential > conflict of interest? > > The summary provides by the Working Group Chair states that the > Responsible Area Director "has not accepted the related errata". I > took a quick look at erratum eid5933; it is listed as "Reported". As > the erratum has not been classified as per the relevant IESG > Statement, describing it as "not accepted" is inaccurate. > > Regards, > S. Moonesamy > > 1. https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/spring/about/ > 2. > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/or8086G4iYfee5_Icw4PnhkPLBo/ > 3. https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5933 > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --00000000000010ee02059faa7ad3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Mr Moonesamy,

Let me state that yo= ur accusations of Bruno's conflict=C2=A0of interest are simply absurd.= =C2=A0

You can count on one hand such chairs like = Bruno who not only know very well technology in the WG they are chairing, b= ut also take a very neutral position in accepting or progressing any work b= y the WG. I know Bruno for over 20 years and never would even think=C2=A0fo= r a second=C2=A0to send such nonsense blast.=C2=A0

Last time I checked IETF does not prohibit chairs to be part of WG documen= ts.=C2=A0

His information about 6man AD not accept= ing the Errata: 5933 is correct. Errata must be first accepted by an AD the= n processed further. Since it was posted on 11th Dec 2019 it was still not = accepted at first stage. You are mixing AD acceptance=C2=A0/ validation wit= h IESG decision. Those are completely different errata processing phases.= =C2=A0

I understand when someone is not able to ma= ke any further technical arguments, personal attacks start. Awesome !
=

Have a nice weekend,
RR.

=
= On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 11:04 PM S Moonesamy <sm+ietf@elandsys.com> wrote:
Dear Mr Vigoureux,

I am contacting you as you are listed as the Responsible Area
Director for the SPRING Working Group [1].=C2=A0 I would like to thank the =
Working Group for providing some information [2] about the status of
the Working Group Last Call.

I was a bit surprised to see that one of the Working Group Chairs is
listed as a contributor in
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.=C2=A0 It is quite unusual to have the contributor of a Working Group document handle the
Working Group process for the document.=C2=A0 Would there be a potential conflict of interest?

The summary provides by the Working Group Chair states that the
Responsible Area Director "has not accepted the related errata".= =C2=A0 I
took a quick look at erratum eid5933; it is listed as "Reported".= =C2=A0 As
the erratum has not been classified as per the relevant IESG
Statement, describing it as "not accepted" is inaccurate.

Regards,
S. Moonesamy

1. https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/spring/about/ 2. https://mailarchive.ietf= .org/arch/msg/spring/or8086G4iYfee5_Icw4PnhkPLBo/
3. https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5933

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
--00000000000010ee02059faa7ad3-- From nobody Fri Feb 28 14:41:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D5213A2074; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:38:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mV8IGuSfYkIb; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:37:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x632.google.com (mail-pl1-x632.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::632]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A8C63A1FCC; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:37:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x632.google.com with SMTP id u3so1774963plr.9; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:37:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=StppoUPDuJbCQtpxFwuzSkydcXPNCeilJ7YCOPYREI4=; b=AYQv+RJUmpqy1LhBssb7qgei+Pbsp+NbJ4OOOUHEsSTsqB+li0Dyy8EAO4p3rijYSD wR3xUFzQvOsxITYlpvVYLstG5fdkPoMutMDwoFLrzELiZVVB/rsUNnE7cMJYTvxap+A9 YpV3a1WaiIzt79iifyoNb0D+vx/nP3vaJ7ThuqopqZiR04fLn53huq8TY4RsgoC+t86I VBvYqmc/aKiQXbsx/aQ5lkY6okkZIDNqwM5+G13VzJ+CuYCU3MY2jH2zZQ46kBHSUQ2U t33olX1becraji0f0ZwK24pFAFkmIj8WGGX5ygMXkWUABXzPZ+TovkdBlN1ZdaiU8SGo 4h4A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=StppoUPDuJbCQtpxFwuzSkydcXPNCeilJ7YCOPYREI4=; b=kGb3ut+R11WD0GVSOBg0LNoLdDuh6a05Oo3qRMjA/pNsdZ6V87JtVj3snhcCF/VGf+ LUHv77DkB680dBNXNhAoKA9rVtsDgdbf/kf0XyahhW/MBi1npX0PsUr4oLDbYkHyzQXp NUyKSB5PJaCIGL+go04etiXhjevqqJ+4p1JioHMV1K5nRFtYQNz/mvt4dG47p3QZxJFs U+Zmr+iUVyOnyFu8gQom5e33+lTr9u6Z15oZA6sC8Ftvd8GQWt9KslnqlXrPs7lvitJ1 rTjamElaVhwdHX9hpdQNvi6yc+rWAerqyW4A83nAPyNs/Fo0zv5n0ij8jR+zQhsMXn44 Vh+Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWLE/nsAAkMF+aKw1BGm8EATG3Pu96D6QH7G3J6ghAWMJgBzd5B hpiqOw6ZV4/3V2xK9okQvBhgb90D X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwSNV1aFgNrt6PsnLRuTIfpt4hF3G12iMzNXCNToPLWgSiwESm3ZWSQ48qZEoFHdN3RY03FLQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:aa98:: with SMTP id d24mr6254654plr.106.1582929478042; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:37:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.30] ([165.84.25.143]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l13sm3388108pjq.23.2020.02.28.14.37.55 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:37:57 -0800 (PST) To: bruno.decraene@orange.com, draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming , "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" Cc: 'SPRING WG List' References: <17421_1575566127_5DE93B2F_17421_93_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D1A3DA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <21607_1582910351_5E594B8F_21607_111_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD1C51@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <46104589-0a79-6034-d78a-7aac2475bd1e@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 11:37:54 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <21607_1582910351_5E594B8F_21607_111_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD1C51@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 22:38:07 -0000 Bruno, Thanks for this. Please view what follows with a non-proportional font. Here's my understanding of the scenario we are talking about: A -------->B---------->C | ^ | | \ / X-------->Y-------->Z The normal path is from A to B to C and the packet would be a plain IPv6 packet with no routing header. Now assume that node A detects a "link down" condition on the link to B. Until routing has converged, A (with pre-existing knowledge of the topolo= gy) sends packets to C with a routing header via X, Y and Z. So what does the routing header look like when the packet leaves A? Presumably, segments-left =3D 3, and the list of destinations is [C,Z,Y,X= ], and the initial IPv6 destination is X. When the packet leaves X, segments-left =3D 2, list =3D [C,Z,Y,X], and th= e next IPv6 destination is Y. When the packet leaves Y, segments-left =3D 1, list =3D [C,Z,Y,X], and th= e next IPv6 destination is Z. When the packet leaves Z, segments-left =3D 0, list =3D [C,Z,Y,X], and th= e next IPv6 destination is C. To me this seems to be what is described by RFC8200 and by the approved draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header-26. Is this correct? In what way is the PSP flavor different (Z being the penultimate hop)? I have just realised what may be the misunderstanding here. The wording i= n RFC8200 may be a bit loose, as Fernando has observed, but the logic of draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10 PSP also depends on looking= at the value of segments-left and only deleting the routing header if segments-left =3D=3D 0. The problem is that this test is applied *afte= r* the node (Z in my example) has already decremented the value of segments-= left. The text in RFC8200 clearly refers to the incoming value, which is 1 in node Z. The routing header is not exhausted until it reaches a node whose address is the last one in the list, i.e. C in my example, and the incoming segments-left =3D=3D 0. So, the PSP mechanism is depending on a reading of RFC8200 that ignores the statement of intent in Appendix B, *and* on testing against the alrea= dy decremented value of segments-left, not the incoming value of segments-le= ft. Now, it may be that there will be IETF rough consensus to allow this but I think the text needs to be much more explicit about these two points. (BTW, I am not denying that PSP works, subject to the usual comments about AH and PMTUD.) Regards Brian Carpenter On 29-Feb-20 06:19, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote: > Pablo, authors, WG, >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > Section 4.16.1 [1] is the subject of multiple comments and clarificatio= n questions. Most notably some comments from Brian. >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > Its current text is very focused on the technical specification. Techni= cal specification is good and this is the primary objective to achieve in= teroperability. But some would say that it is a bit terse, especially giv= en the amount of context behind it. So I think that it could benefit from= some introduction text. >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > Could you work on some text to better introduce PSP and put it in conte= xt? Possibly working with Brian who is kind enough to work on improving t= he clarity of this section for everyone. >=20 > Quoting Brian =E2=80=9Csimply need more explanation in elementary terms= =E2=80=9D. >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > I personally have a few points in mind: >=20 > -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Clarifying what= =E2=80=9CPenultimate=E2=80=9D refers to. This is required as there are m= ultiple reading such =E2=80=9Cpenultimate IPv6/SRv6 transit node=E2=80=9D= (which we all agree is not allowed by RFC 8200, so let=E2=80=99s make th= ings clear that the document is not talking or suggesting or allowing thi= s) or =E2=80=9Cpenultimate SR Segment Endpoint Node indicated in the IPv6= destination address of the received IPv6 header=E2=80=9D. >=20 > -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Clarify what yo= u mean by =E2=80=9CPop=E2=80=9D. (as this terminology is heavily borrowed= from MPLS and may not be crystal clear for everyone, especially since th= e MPLS RFC is not a normative reference (and it should not be)) >=20 > -=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Clarify that gi= ven the nodes A=E2=80=94B=E2=80=94C, =C2=A0the PSP flavor is done by penu= ltimate Segment Endpoint =E2=80=9CB=E2=80=9D at the request of the IPv6 s= ource node =E2=80=9CA=E2=80=9D as an outsourced service from the ultimate= SR End Point =E2=80=9CC=E2=80=9D. =E2=80=9CA=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9CB=E2=80=9D= and =E2=80=9CC=E2=80=9D been within the same control domain. >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > Agreed that this is not changing anything in the spec, and may be obvio= us to you, and hopefully clear for people having read the relevant docume= nt, however from the comments it seems clear that some additional context= may help to clarify. Also it=E2=80=99s plausible that some persons may o= nly read this specific PSP section and react on it. >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > Thank you, >=20 > --Bruno >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programm= ing-10#section-4.16.1 >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > *From:*ipv6 [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *bruno.decraen= e@orange.com > *Sent:* Thursday, December 5, 2019 6:15 PM > *To:* 'SPRING WG List' > *Cc:* 6man@ietf.org; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming > *Subject:* WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > Hello SPRING, >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-spr= ing-srv6-network-programming [1]. >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent version, = and send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later than December 20. >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not dup= licating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which are only = spring specifics. >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically debate= d on the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread for this po= int. >=20 > This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this point an= d that other points get forgotten (or that the thread get converted into = parallel independent discussions) >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > Thank you, >=20 > Bruno >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programm= ing-05 >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > _______________________________________________________________________= __________________________________________________ >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations conf= identielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc >=20 > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez = recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler >=20 > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les message= s electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, >=20 > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme= ou falsifie. Merci. >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged= information that may be protected by law; >=20 > they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. >=20 > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and = delete this message and its attachments. >=20 > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have b= een modified, changed or falsified. >=20 > Thank you. >=20 > _______________________________________________________________________= __________________________________________________ >=20 > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations conf= identielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez = recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les message= s electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme= ou falsifie. 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Halpern" Cc: "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> References: <965ff6bbf1cb4c2f8d48b7b535a0cf5b@huawei.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <2991422b-2de4-f89e-fd79-ada91dc9b3f4@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 11:46:03 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <965ff6bbf1cb4c2f8d48b7b535a0cf5b@huawei.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 22:46:18 -0000 Hi Jingrong, Thanks for your suggestion. > so that the tunnel endpoint > router (C) doesn't have to deal with SRH. =20 Actually, why does this matter? RFC8200 already handles this case: If, while processing a received packet, a node encounters a Routing header with an unrecognized Routing Type value, the required behavior of the node depends on the value of the Segments Left field, as follows: If Segments Left is zero, the node must ignore the Routing header and proceed to process the next header in the packet, whose type is identified by the Next Header field in the Routing header. If a non-SRV6 capable router receives SRV6 with segments-left =3D=3D 0, i= t must ignore it. (So why is PSP needed at all?) Regards Brian On 28-Feb-20 20:54, Xiejingrong (Jingrong) wrote: > Hi >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > Thanks Ted for the constructive suggestions, which remind me to try to = understand the questions. Here are the questions I think give the clear s= uggestions for LC. >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > Brian: So could the draft make this explicit, because I guarantee you i= t is not in the least obvious to the non-expert reader? >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > Jinmei: it should say it updates this part of RFC8200 and explain why i= t's justified. >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > Joel: it would seem that there ought to be a good reason for including = PSP, rather than claiming that objectors need to motivate removing it. >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > Bob: There seems to be questions about its relationship with RFC8200.=C2= =A0 I am not seeing this as being resolved. >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > As far as I understand the concern and the draft, I may have the follow= ing proposed text, though I don=E2=80=99t know if that will help to close= or narrow the gap: >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > ****Proposed text to explicitly explain the PSP at the end of 4.16.1 of= rev-10**** >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > Note that, the SRH is used in an X-in-IP6 tunnel end point case, that i= s, router (A) >=20 > imposes an SRH, and a Penultimate Segment router (B) removes the SRH be= fore >=20 > this packet goes to the tunnel end point router (C), so that the tunnel= endpoint >=20 > router (C) doesn't have to deal with SRH.=C2=A0 >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > This has some very important benefits for deployment in some networks w= hen the >=20 > final tunnel end point is a lower-end node which is not capable of proc= essing >=20 > the SRH for reasons like the hardware is overloaded or unable to upgrad= ed to >=20 > process well with SRH. >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > The use of SRH with AH by an SR source node, and processing at a SR Pen= ultimate >=20 > segment endpoint node is not defined in >=20 > or in this document. >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > The use of PSP does not impact the MTU Considerations defined in sectio= n 5.3 of >=20 > . >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > The design of PSP for the benefits of deployment is based on the unders= tanding >=20 > that it does not violate section 4 of RFC8200. In case the RFC8200 text= may be >=20 > modified in the future, the PSP may also need to change accordingly. >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > In case the final tunnel endpoint router is fully capable of the functi= onality >=20 > of SRH and the SRv6-NP defined in this document, it is recommended not = to use >=20 > the PSP. >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > ***End**** >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > Thanks >=20 > Jingrong >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > *From:*spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Ted Lemon= > *Sent:* Friday, February 28, 2020 4:55 AM > *To:* Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) > *Cc:* spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: W= GLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > On Feb 27, 2020, at 3:38 PM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) > wrote: >=20 > The discussion that we are having is about PSP which has nothing to= do with that. >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 > So, there is text in the document that addresses Brian=E2=80=99s questi= on? >=20 > =C2=A0 >=20 From nobody Fri Feb 28 14:52:04 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4A703A1F75; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:51:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Dws15uNmFYnN; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:51:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x42f.google.com (mail-wr1-x42f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E92DD3A1F23; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:51:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x42f.google.com with SMTP id y17so4957124wrn.6; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:51:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=NmUzrrggfB9udvNMRR+0IiRq//yCNRUE6RkJQ+ytdz4=; b=YcL/avNUS+rbvlcQML+Zhy23N5ROxKfxpNMKXko6aVjlV22P03/J0E4Um+Z1Am+uPj YmQh6zyCBzvRTkwjGaZWjj7gKvNGbKyVKrB0Pjb7rVc4q1tEPUAcnL16AzZrimfgXaTO HtkYt1Sek++qCXrmqYN7H54AtnJmUIoOEqGIuyIV/7/2fjAqLiDrjNjj6ic+D5TdnZMd riSMUSPFMN4nmg7HSgtyYXv6hR5/ipLUdwDup9puCLyCKjTCColqsWvtKEWIwzIsszZA MbUIzG17jpqGQu+BbLG21bis9cVjCJQnXkok5aUUA12lJTdUjKtV4jXr9YnkiB/KX4SJ HYew== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=NmUzrrggfB9udvNMRR+0IiRq//yCNRUE6RkJQ+ytdz4=; b=pREq3/3Tc9u3YUm6zKnuWuskMK4NuPEXnAROEiJdZZ5FYGWMYOLI/7kR0AHp9osnbI yNdivpjfnlRfWiqAhctctIJ2DWRyIFEjW5qNoFl4RxWo+/Od0E9lwO9xhsODREBXHaX7 MuqNDWEVVK2uiOegVwieGm4UidVS9BNQVhJ5gsk33P9UMH8G85a0QXjLZLMLaU2nH1J0 0hXsC8xjiC+SPbaH4vuwBn2+HaRVVMDBjbHQyPwzfU75azdRAaBOVf6gLbCbRHFIiU2q sInp/CwBdW1QSqRRO/TkkszU0PWOVXb10kAB2XA07o9o1SDCxsG9IN4LMNzbn9CvBkWE 6yqw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWsC/p6VCAYCEGwk8Iqpbv9ppir2ClIC32d7eOnqSWQ486maP9b X5H0aDd3mlGC4kgOIFyEMVg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxH/Kr1AMqhUlXJ9vA6dQYQCXEIc/4y/kN1DfZmZBexYQc9u5YlNbX33q0p2sP5ScL5R3aSRg== X-Received: by 2002:adf:fd08:: with SMTP id e8mr1925695wrr.43.1582930312358; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:51:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:5a00:ef0b:41de:3600:7ec8:7d54? ([2601:647:5a00:ef0b:41de:3600:7ec8:7d54]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z16sm14016675wrp.33.2020.02.28.14.51.49 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:51:51 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Hinden Message-Id: <3F69FA15-F967-44EE-AE1D-600360412BB8@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_BD300E8F-A983-46C4-9633-01D7BC8E7A0E"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:51:45 -0800 In-Reply-To: <2991422b-2de4-f89e-fd79-ada91dc9b3f4@gmail.com> Cc: Bob Hinden , "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" , Ted Lemon , "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" , =?utf-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= , "Joel M. Halpern" , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> To: Brian Carpenter References: <965ff6bbf1cb4c2f8d48b7b535a0cf5b@huawei.com> <2991422b-2de4-f89e-fd79-ada91dc9b3f4@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 22:52:01 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_BD300E8F-A983-46C4-9633-01D7BC8E7A0E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Brian, > On Feb 28, 2020, at 2:46 PM, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > Hi Jingrong, >=20 > Thanks for your suggestion. >=20 >> so that the tunnel endpoint >> router (C) doesn't have to deal with SRH. >=20 > Actually, why does this matter? RFC8200 already handles this case: >=20 > If, while processing a received packet, a node encounters a Routing > header with an unrecognized Routing Type value, the required = behavior > of the node depends on the value of the Segments Left field, as > follows: >=20 > If Segments Left is zero, the node must ignore the Routing header > and proceed to process the next header in the packet, whose type > is identified by the Next Header field in the Routing header. >=20 > If a non-SRV6 capable router receives SRV6 with segments-left =3D=3D = 0, it > must ignore it. (So why is PSP needed at all?) Good point and question. This is why there is a common base format for = all IPv6 routing headers, it allows for this case. Bob >=20 > Regards > Brian >=20 > On 28-Feb-20 20:54, Xiejingrong (Jingrong) wrote: >> Hi >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Thanks Ted for the constructive suggestions, which remind me to try = to understand the questions. Here are the questions I think give the = clear suggestions for LC. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Brian: So could the draft make this explicit, because I guarantee you = it is not in the least obvious to the non-expert reader? >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Jinmei: it should say it updates this part of RFC8200 and explain why = it's justified. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Joel: it would seem that there ought to be a good reason for = including PSP, rather than claiming that objectors need to motivate = removing it. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Bob: There seems to be questions about its relationship with RFC8200. = I am not seeing this as being resolved. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> As far as I understand the concern and the draft, I may have the = following proposed text, though I don=E2=80=99t know if that will help = to close or narrow the gap: >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> ****Proposed text to explicitly explain the PSP at the end of 4.16.1 = of rev-10**** >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Note that, the SRH is used in an X-in-IP6 tunnel end point case, that = is, router (A) >>=20 >> imposes an SRH, and a Penultimate Segment router (B) removes the SRH = before >>=20 >> this packet goes to the tunnel end point router (C), so that the = tunnel endpoint >>=20 >> router (C) doesn't have to deal with SRH. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> This has some very important benefits for deployment in some networks = when the >>=20 >> final tunnel end point is a lower-end node which is not capable of = processing >>=20 >> the SRH for reasons like the hardware is overloaded or unable to = upgraded to >>=20 >> process well with SRH. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> The use of SRH with AH by an SR source node, and processing at a SR = Penultimate >>=20 >> segment endpoint node is not defined in = >>=20 >> or in this document. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> The use of PSP does not impact the MTU Considerations defined in = section 5.3 of >>=20 >> . >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> The design of PSP for the benefits of deployment is based on the = understanding >>=20 >> that it does not violate section 4 of RFC8200. In case the RFC8200 = text may be >>=20 >> modified in the future, the PSP may also need to change accordingly. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> In case the final tunnel endpoint router is fully capable of the = functionality >>=20 >> of SRH and the SRv6-NP defined in this document, it is recommended = not to use >>=20 >> the PSP. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> ***End**** >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Thanks >>=20 >> Jingrong >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> *From:*spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Ted = Lemon >> *Sent:* Friday, February 28, 2020 4:55 AM >> *To:* Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) >> *Cc:* spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org >> *Subject:* Re: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: = WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On Feb 27, 2020, at 3:38 PM, Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) = > wrote: >>=20 >> The discussion that we are having is about PSP which has nothing = to do with that. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> So, there is text in the document that addresses Brian=E2=80=99s = question? >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_BD300E8F-A983-46C4-9633-01D7BC8E7A0E Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEm0rfRsOCoyamPexGrut0EXfnu6gFAl5ZmYEACgkQrut0EXfn u6jMKggAh8epWN/E2nmWrnWdC2wby11li+yeG4YcB/V1Y9AQLzGR7Puo8CNfhQFq 0faIY9FWIuF4mzFLAE2czuzh9fDwEO/6IqI874HdNXUawA4+kk2Mrichlemt1RSL 2UW3bzcJY4Pc3eaIBGV9RasVAdTiToxM5nbp/zTG1JFd/L1new6wR4+e2O8arnTY GJFEMWEwRfreFRokXB9tQyg+hEqHm+4qp57QkZ/zskCElQC1ZjFMAyW4szi1La2U isPlGfM7Dl37kAkSEfvBarBgKNpuRzjgkLGFWKRW7KsiSELfVK24F2HUnIFk5cj6 nXvmp+TruACvepmVmLFuZm9I53U9xA== =LinB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_BD300E8F-A983-46C4-9633-01D7BC8E7A0E-- From nobody Fri Feb 28 17:13:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C42C3A086A; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 17:13:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.597 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.597 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.999, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xLPX3qPBPtNa; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 17:13:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x32c.google.com (mail-ot1-x32c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6EF143A0869; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 17:13:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x32c.google.com with SMTP id w6so4406768otk.0; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 17:13:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=DOYN7ch7ZxJ03gXhc+VMJ7l4tvlTjnKue3PpKtMHB1w=; b=USBJOPekVWngyr1W8392R6D1/uqbbQgsg4Tw/f3+bwrYVDTMTBysK7oSQ2GWLe+F9t 30X/AaiJVsirVqNhM/he8R7wnrxmGo9bt/n8Z4VVBcSE9BP9jVdzOuqMRPcX0QFRSre2 2mEphNfjzKw+10uFzun5yVrS8WXW3r54eoRV0McV5Q+O/eO+4Se+tAza8ZH6gpUnuf0s GKaU5li6pqmOw2WFc12Rd8rsbbQJCBR7quMSOMH+bikjiT2pP+f0hH+ZpLySjMzPIqhQ +gqnQhlfuz73vPLsu5hDCBjz3qqfqXeibcNh51n5pJD3ElR3/YSSWmsVPxYmq8T8ivBO cW9g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=DOYN7ch7ZxJ03gXhc+VMJ7l4tvlTjnKue3PpKtMHB1w=; b=VaygKYNqPUlG6Ziq8oLhbJFkSPPDNTpI6xjDFnitdfVWadYkE8YT5lI4PmW1XcYobH aKI9uKbHHjnMFbAciKKDPv2ySEGQUBizYpTg3B2QlRDFsPOdesXzPNAC2U6UdnC3peR/ vYs5P2o64aemoSbZu3elVUbUV/WuliKoBizcWZR8cnvLnSdv2JQ2DwAUM8nqWOlXdd+P CyapegqS/QvaR6v9d3UgU7x90vBsuQPBAhe0d1fVFbt/cz0i/heASZ5MRIoNB1e2HbCr cRlqiP/vyesH9WfG64EBrbiXIyd9wQvvDT8wMcBmFGSph+1UvnH/QJ4WMX7G1qQbBbLE onSA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUG0KFM1hF4Q5oMjqSvi55ptbSord0/0naVMF1dkO4uOVn1LmFb F9vb8yZMea+bs9+9J7jutF5q+EM2VsnBsjTnZHk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz2cCb0OuDbUX0mJBMvU9Ss7Z9MFgeBzJYSDccgaM3zlV4cfmU55ImSmvEBlPVv3wlyy4b9EaZ1gn9JX4Hd/qw= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:65cb:: with SMTP id z11mr5041347oth.348.1582938824656; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 17:13:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <199B7645-A2AC-4E1A-9E6E-7638A200BE80@steffann.nl> In-Reply-To: From: Mark Smith Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 12:13:18 +1100 Message-ID: To: Warren Kumari Cc: Robert Raszuk , James Guichard , SPRING WG List , 6man WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005849aa059facaaa2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] RFC8200 update? X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 01:13:47 -0000 --0000000000005849aa059facaaa2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, 29 Feb 2020, 06:55 Warren Kumari, wrote: > On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 9:02 AM Robert Raszuk wrote: > > > > > interestingly enough MPLS took the same approach > > > > Well not really. As you know, MPLS unicast and multicast have a new > ethertype. > > And this is a critical distinction -- Brian Carpenter's limited domain > document (draft-carpenter-limited-domains) says: > "Domain boundaries that are defined administratively (e.g. by address > filtering rules in routers) are prone to leakage caused by human > error, especially if the limited domain traffic appears otherwise > normal to the boundary routers. In this case, the network operator > needs to take active steps to protect the boundary. This form of > leakage is much less likely if nodes must be explicitly configured to > handle a given limited domain protocol, for example by installing a > specific protocol handler." > Using IPv6 for SR is fundamentally using the wrong tool for the job. IPv6 is an internetworking protocol used to network networks and to internetwork all hosts attached to all of those networks. The SR problem space is typically limited to local network or sub-network, and usually only between network elements, rather than out to end hosts. It does make sense to try to use a internetworking protocol to solve a local sub-network problem when the internetworking protocol has become commodity. The benefits of the cheapness of the commodity protocol should outweigh the costs of the drawbacks and compromises that need to be made to use it. However, the moment customising the commodity to better suit the problem starts is the moment the benefits of using the existing commodity start being lost. Customise too much and all of the benefits of choosing a commodity in the first place disappear. That's why I fundamentally think changing IPv6 to suit SR should be avoided as much as possible. Compromising SR to suit and fit within existing IPv6 would retain the benefits of using existing commodity IPv6. Customising IPv6 to suit SR risks throwing the commodity benefits "baby out with the bathwater", with the more radical the customising, the greater risk. Regards, Mark. > > > > > > SRv6 folks were just too nice and thought to leverage 0x86DD. I think > that was a mistake. I further think we should fix it. > > > > Cheers, > > R. > > > > On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 2:44 PM James Guichard < > james.n.guichard@futurewei.com> wrote: > >> > >> Hi Sander, > >> > >> RFC8402 explicitly says in section 8 security considerations that "by > default, the explicit routing information MUST NOT be leaked through the > boundaries of the administered domain". The intent therefore seems clear > that "global internet" does not apply; interestingly enough MPLS took the > same approach and has been widely deployed for years. > >> > >> Respectfully, > >> > >> Jim > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: spring On Behalf Of Sander Steffann > >> Sent: Friday, February 28, 2020 8:25 AM > >> To: Wang, Weibin (NSB - CN/Shanghai) > >> Cc: SPRING WG List ; 6man WG ; Andrew > Alston > >> Subject: Re: [spring] RFC8200 update? > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> > In the bearer of srv6 traffic, srv6 domain is only one part of the > whole packet journey. Because the srv6 domain is trusted by single > operator, it is no necessary for the outer IPv6 header (for performing SRH > function) to inherit all IPv6 extension headers specially designed for the > initial end-to-end IPv6 communication, for example, the AH is not must for > outer IPv6 header and its SRH. Therefore, the outer IPv6 processing of srv6 > traffic can appropriately relax the restrictions, that is to say, the outer > IPv6 encapsulation only inherits a part of IPv6 spec. > >> > >> No. It uses IPv6 and must therefore follow the rules of IPv6. What I > propose is to update IPv6 to make this possible, but you can't break the > rules in a standard without consensus that the rules can be changed. > >> > >> > For example, it is allowed to perform functions such as PSP within > SRv6 domain; Could we treat IPv6 headers function of internal and external > layers differently, after all, their purposes are different. > >> > >> Let's not use implicit definitions of "internal" and "external" layers. > They don't make sense in a global protocol (and despite your claims that > SRv6 is limited to a specific domain, it really isn't. It uses global IPv6 > addresses and can traverse the global internet). Let's define global rules > that apply to everybody instead, and standardise this behaviour. > >> > >> Cheers, > >> Sander > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> spring mailing list > >> spring@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > ipv6@ietf.org > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > -- > I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad > idea in the first place. > This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing > regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair > of pants. > ---maf > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > --0000000000005849aa059facaaa2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sat, 29 Feb 2020, 06:55 Warren Kum= ari, <warren@kuma= ri.net> wrote:
On Fri, Feb 2= 8, 2020 at 9:02 AM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
>
> > interestingly enough MPLS took the same approach
>
> Well not really. As you know, MPLS unicast and multicast have a new et= hertype.

And this is a critical distinction -- Brian Carpenter's limited domain<= br> document (draft-carpenter-limited-domains) says:
"Domain boundaries that are defined administratively (e.g. by address<= br> filtering rules in routers) are prone to leakage caused by human
error, especially if the limited domain traffic appears otherwise
normal to the boundary routers. In this case, the network operator
needs to take active steps to protect the boundary. This form of
leakage is much less likely if nodes must be explicitly configured to
handle a given limited domain protocol, for example by installing a
specific protocol handler."

Using IPv6 for SR is fundamentally using the wrong tool = for the job.

IPv6 is an internetworking protocol u= sed to network networks and to internetwork all hosts attached to all of th= ose networks.

The SR problem space is typically li= mited to local network or sub-network, and usually only between network ele= ments, rather than out to end hosts.

It does make = sense to try to use a internetworking protocol to solve a local sub-network= problem when the internetworking protocol has become commodity. The benefi= ts of the cheapness of the commodity protocol should outweigh the costs of = the drawbacks and compromises that need to be made to use it.
However, the moment customising the commodity to better suit th= e problem starts is the moment the benefits of using the existing commodity= start being lost. Customise too much and all of the benefits of choosing a= commodity in the first place disappear.

That's why I fundamentally think changing IPv6 to suit SR should be a= voided as much as possible.

Compromising SR to sui= t and fit within existing IPv6 would retain the benefits of using existing = commodity IPv6. Customising IPv6 to suit SR risks throwing the commodity be= nefits "baby out with the bathwater", with the more radical the c= ustomising, the greater risk.

Regards,
M= ark.


















>
> SRv6 folks were just too nice and thought to leverage 0x86DD. I think = that was a mistake. I further think we should fix it.
>
> Cheers,
> R.
>
> On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 2:44 PM James Guichard <james.n= .guichard@futurewei.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Sander,
>>
>> RFC8402 explicitly says in section 8 security considerations that = "by default, the explicit routing information MUST NOT be leaked throu= gh the boundaries of the administered domain". The intent therefore se= ems clear that "global internet" does not apply; interestingly en= ough MPLS took the same approach and has been widely deployed for years. >>
>> Respectfully,
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of= Sander Steffann
>> Sent: Friday, February 28, 2020 8:25 AM
>> To: Wang, Weibin (NSB - CN/Shanghai) <weibin.wang@noki= a-sbell.com>
>> Cc: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.or= g>; Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com>
>> Subject: Re: [spring] RFC8200 update?
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> > In the bearer of srv6 traffic, srv6 domain is only one part o= f the whole packet journey. Because the srv6 domain is trusted by single op= erator, it is no necessary for the outer IPv6 header (for performing SRH fu= nction) to inherit all IPv6 extension headers specially designed for the in= itial end-to-end IPv6 communication, for example, the AH is not must for ou= ter IPv6 header and its SRH. Therefore, the outer IPv6 processing of srv6 t= raffic can appropriately relax the restrictions, that is to say, the outer = IPv6 encapsulation only inherits a part of IPv6 spec.
>>
>> No. It uses IPv6 and must therefore follow the rules of IPv6. What= I propose is to update IPv6 to make this possible, but you can't break= the rules in a standard without consensus that the rules can be changed. >>
>> > For example, it is allowed to perform functions such as PSP w= ithin SRv6 domain;=C2=A0 Could we treat IPv6 headers function of internal a= nd external layers differently, after all, their purposes are different. >>
>> Let's not use implicit definitions of "internal" and= "external" layers. They don't make sense in a global protoco= l (and despite your claims that SRv6 is limited to a specific domain, it re= ally isn't. It uses global IPv6 addresses and can traverse the global i= nternet). Let's define global rules that apply to everybody instead, an= d standardise this behaviour.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Sander
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> spring mailing list
>> spring@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinf= o/spring
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> = ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.= org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------


--
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
idea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair
of pants.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0---maf

--------------------------------------------------------------------
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
ipv6@= ietf.org
Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/m= ailman/listinfo/ipv6
--------------------------------------------------------------------
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17:28:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFC063A0896; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 17:27:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9EEVgBbGNJql; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 17:27:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-f45.google.com (mail-wr1-f45.google.com [209.85.221.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 400043A0895; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 17:27:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-f45.google.com with SMTP id p18so5309794wre.9; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 17:27:58 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Q5iOhJO5392jF09+Zll/GqfFZweVIaii8K+2xhwGRK0=; b=RsajPCvd5/y+MWF3SN2xkggCbsRQ/kLSQpbUivVwmJmfSvoDGCNO8HSHY1SOCGZvRx 0GaBPpTkDnKuiVQxkQ9CuJyDznXug2nI8MDuxk20pF41hKCN7kw1jXuR82ZAX5mNlHZ/ 4RoFVujWTItaQHKnp9P7848OiydCe4VD/4+6r7zkQndrEb3AQiPsYlpPk8IEmFkn8lZR rfNcZl5QMmFsucpff4/mzEezSAgWvCPh8iy8hTbDzEDmIEMWrSS8bZe7TYo5UGBHEn96 kwN1fId8p28McaRp53c0hNFHUzyXC7NGhl4e1T4/DXEE6Mv7HHSwlohXzXG8EL4NtW93 ct3A== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVzV5NjgNftFSJQD8tVabidtaHEUh54ykps1z9+loamutswscCS eca0hDmMDTP/aHQUcaKf80HWAMq30SnWiYRgM6w= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzz0KLuJ4ErGrufqWdhTUG6pU5K5lsOm6iIT4jUVSON2q5GyZdBFyrYxRRh24pFO/gZJCEM32b8CkpQF0je0G4= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:6a04:: with SMTP id m4mr7251854wru.127.1582939676548; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 17:27:56 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <965ff6bbf1cb4c2f8d48b7b535a0cf5b@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <965ff6bbf1cb4c2f8d48b7b535a0cf5b@huawei.com> From: =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 17:27:45 -0800 Message-ID: To: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" Cc: Ted Lemon , "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" , Brian E Carpenter , Bob Hinden , "Joel M. Halpern" , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 01:28:00 -0000 At Fri, 28 Feb 2020 07:54:28 +0000, "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" wrote: > The design of PSP for the benefits of deployment is based on the understanding > that it does not violate section 4 of RFC8200. In case the RFC8200 text may be > modified in the future, the PSP may also need to change accordingly. No, it violates Section 4 of RFC8200. It's a pity that we have to discuss it at this level due to the poor editorial work then (I was also responsible for that as one of those reviewing the bis draft), but anyone who involved the discussion should know the intent of this text intended to say (borrowing from Ron's text) "Extension headers cannot be added to a packet after it has left the its source node and extension headers cannot be removed from a packet until it has arrived at its ultimate destination". It might look "an attempt of blocking an innovation by a small group of vocal fundamentalists", but if you see the responses without a bias, you'd notice that even some of those who seem neutral about the underlying SRv6 matter interpret the text that way. I'd also note that simply because PSP violates RFC8200 doesn't immediately mean it (PSP) "needs to change". It can update RFC8200 with explaining why it's necessary and justified. That's what I requested as you summarized: > Jinmei: it should say it updates this part of RFC8200 and explain why it's justified. And, since PSP at least wouldn't break PMTUD, I guess the update proposal will have much more chance to be accepted than a proposal including EH insertion. On the other hand, pretending there's no violation will certainly trigger many appeals and objections at the IETF last call (I'll certainly object to it). In the end, it can easily take much longer, or even fail, than formally claiming an update to RFC8200. -- JINMEI, Tatuya From nobody Fri Feb 28 17:49:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 954113A091D for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 17:48:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9FdkJQl3BuGM for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 17:48:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x1035.google.com (mail-pj1-x1035.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1035]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E3E743A08FD for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 17:48:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x1035.google.com with SMTP id i11so1930948pju.3 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 17:48:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version; bh=tvfJxPHcRd1y5hSiK0sImxNi4GYRYm4GjErt/m1Nu/s=; b=cDyoyqmrfrTmhNu5uJ4iTHoOxalzwjz6CobwMaoPw2N4INDfmYhkZm+Iyh+YHxfGI9 ShpWlT7tE2Crm0YxpCLU0ouvH25o4QR04O3HruvvDl8nMEvsSx1kDIB3XtjZDelJ38Hz i7/m2mhPfHnG8KvRb3KxqhuNgU4iwr0jnjfQsKgnd92jYmjb818yBzth7gBuEBY6JJ9x TR289LHm6Ukrxjr/2seKOXoyLbPF4oTs4M2xeWb27w4R/50Y2tUWloMWYwHJ7EQklDrq dgBJnLQ12hZGXFF/Qt2ExSF/MWlz9WPF7X3tMYzZrCdJBTy8OO6304p3F8Q7GCyCQnjE FJYA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to :references:subject:mime-version; bh=tvfJxPHcRd1y5hSiK0sImxNi4GYRYm4GjErt/m1Nu/s=; b=T/812PPpegU02XSddy6pCbQ2H42Hc6vWz4xNg2NeWMwkmAtVvIpAHQvLKJJjsh2bmD ZI6XcI7pFY5WC2nElfBcniFrfyDjebqOKtJqZFTxzUgNU5VADJ5s0/Pkab0ANoI0BSsW J8aAgX+JlA0mdxfvGmOTdbSlktBxjp07IAJbCg36+3/FljwXqdrcfN+143cJMOk6BYlj mw+8y3PfplPFm/DKK5hxo0yc9COzoXSJKK0HNvpzBG0PUdVvaXODP/rU0MnaOTTNuC1A Lk6i3w6A+qO9picPJyg2S8obSn6x2/vTWyY7WoUxNJnr0rBdzkSP4cuie150bz3pwsR1 ogxg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVj1W8l+LhMhBNPhVn7phkH95Of1kQ/jqGVvZ5CkyN5HBqoiWPC 0BQ9GqqEsI6Lx55l8zxpgkY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy7HU3ucmOjHI5XK4aFqHDXBw93DeH0gHJkgGCuzaPPZnDYkoN0N+UEsFym53U5QfDAo8TfCA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:8a8e:: with SMTP id p14mr6741898plo.28.1582940913181; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 17:48:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [2601:640:102:57a9:400a:1e01:70:0] ([2601:640:102:57a9:3d6a:60c0:a092:3242]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 5sm12609731pfx.163.2020.02.28.17.48.31 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 28 Feb 2020 17:48:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 17:48:25 -0800 From: Jeff Tantsura To: Robert Raszuk , "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" Cc: SPRING WG , Martin Vigoureux , S Moonesamy Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <17421_1575566127_5DE93B2F_17421_93_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D1A3DA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5518_1582908787_5E594573_5518_436_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD1BCA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <9b677b7c-fe52-dbae-7f83-2b5be5194325@gont.com.ar> <6.2.5.6.2.20200228132634.1060a610@elandnews.com> X-Readdle-Message-ID: f6527adc-3a22-41b0-828d-9f82759a7e19@Spark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="5e59c2ef_1a27709e_ba8d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 01:48:44 -0000 --5e59c2ef_1a27709e_ba8d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I second Carlos. Besides, Bruno's integrity is well known=21 It is a common practice however, when one of the chairs is a co-author of= a document that is progressing in the working group chaired, for the sec= ond chair to manage the document in question. Cheers, Jeff On =46eb 28, 2020, 5:15 PM -0800, Carlos Pignataro (cpignata) , wrote: > Robert, > > I did not read any =E2=80=9Caccusation=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cattack=E2=80= =9D in SM=E2=80=99s note, nor anything specifically directed at Bruno, th= e person, his decision-making, or his character =E2=80=94 just a set of q= uestion to the AD on potential based on roles and processes. > > Thanks, > > =E2=80=94 Carlos. > PS:=C2=A0There are documents that codify some cases (like R=46C 4858, I= ESG statement on shepherds, R=46C 2418, etc.) > > > > 2020/02/28 =E5=8D=88=E5=BE=8C5:36=E3=80=81Robert Raszuk =E3=81=AE=E3=83=A1=E3=83=BC=E3=83=AB: > > > > Dear Mr Moonesamy, > > > > Let me state that your accusations of Bruno's conflict=C2=A0of intere= st are simply absurd. > > > > You can count on one hand such chairs like Bruno who not only know ve= ry well technology in the WG they are chairing, but also take a very neut= ral position in accepting or progressing any work by the WG. I know Bruno= for over 20 years and never would even think=C2=A0for a second=C2=A0to s= end such nonsense blast. > > > > Last time I checked IET=46 does not prohibit chairs to be part of WG = documents. > > > > His information about 6man AD not accepting the Errata: 5933 is corre= ct. Errata must be first accepted by an AD then processed further. Since = it was posted on 11th Dec 2019 it was still not accepted at first stage. = You are mixing AD acceptance=C2=A0/ validation with IESG decision. Those = are completely different errata processing phases. > > > > I understand when someone is not able to make any further technical a= rguments, personal attacks start. Awesome =21 > > > > Have a nice weekend, > > RR. > > > > > > > On =46ri, =46eb 28, 2020 at 11:04 PM S Moonesamy wrote: > > > > Dear Mr Vigoureux, > > > > > > > > I am contacting you as you are listed as the Responsible Area > > > > Director for the SPRING Working Group =5B1=5D.=C2=A0 I would like= to thank the > > > > Working Group for providing some information =5B2=5D about the st= atus of > > > > the Working Group Last Call. > > > > > > > > I was a bit surprised to see that one of the Working Group Chairs= is > > > > listed as a contributor in > > > > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.=C2=A0 It is quite = unusual > > > > to have the contributor of a Working Group document handle the > > > > Working Group process for the document.=C2=A0 Would there be a po= tential > > > > conflict of interest=3F > > > > > > > > The summary provides by the Working Group Chair states that the > > > > Responsible Area Director =22has not accepted the related errata=22= .=C2=A0 I > > > > took a quick look at erratum eid5933; it is listed as =22Reported= =22.=C2=A0 As > > > > the erratum has not been classified as per the relevant IESG > > > > Statement, describing it as =22not accepted=22 is inaccurate. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > S. Moonesamy > > > > > > > > 1. https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/spring/about/ > > > > 2. https://mailarchive.ietf..org/arch/msg/spring/or8086G4iYfee5=5F= Icw4PnhkPLBo/ > > > > 3. https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5933 > > > > > > > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= > > > > spring mailing list > > > > spring=40ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F > > spring mailing list > > spring=40ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F > spring mailing list > spring=40ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring --5e59c2ef_1a27709e_ba8d Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
I second Carlos. Besides, Bruno's integrity is well= known=21
It is a common practice however, when one of the ch= airs is a co-author of a document that is progressing in the working grou= p chaired, for the second chair to manage the document in question.&=2316= 0;

Cheers,
Jeff
On =46eb 28, 2020, 5:15 PM -0800, C= arlos Pignataro (cpignata) <cpignata=3D40cisco.com=40dmarc.ietf.org>= ;, wrote:
Ro= bert,

I did not read any =E2=80=9Caccusation=E2=80=9D or =E2= =80=9Cattack=E2=80=9D in SM=E2=80=99s note, nor anything specifically dir= ected at Bruno, the person, his decision-making, or his character =E2=80=94= just a set of question to the AD on potential based on roles and process= es.

Thanks,

=E2=80=94 Carlos.
PS:&=23160;There are documents that codify = some cases (like R=46C 4858, IESG statement on shepherds, R=46C 2418, etc= .)

2020/02/28 =E5=8D=88=E5=BE=8C5:36=E3=80=81Robert Rasz= uk <robert=40= raszuk.net>=E3=81=AE=E3=83=A1=E3=83=BC=E3=83=AB:

Dear Mr Moonesamy,

Let me state that your accusations of Bruno's conflic= t&=23160;of interest are simply absurd.&=23160;

You can count on one hand such chairs like Bruno who = not only know very well technology in the WG they are chairing, but also = take a very neutral position in accepting or progressing any work by the = WG. I know Bruno for over 20 years and never would even think&=23160;for = a second&=23160;to send such nonsense blast.&=23160;

Last time I checked IET=46 does not prohibit chairs t= o be part of WG documents.&=23160;

His information about 6man AD not accepting the Errat= a: 5933 is correct. Errata must be first accepted by an AD then processed= further. Since it was posted on 11th Dec 2019 it was still not accepted = at first stage. You are mixing AD acceptance&=23160;/ validation with IES= G decision. Those are completely different errata processing phases.&=231= 60;

I understand when someone is not able to make any fur= ther technical arguments, personal attacks start. Awesome =21

Have a nice weekend,
RR.


On =46ri, =46eb 28, 2020 = at 11:04 PM S Moonesamy <sm+ietf=40elandsys.com> wrote:
Dear M= r Vigoureux,

I am contacting you as you are listed as the Responsible Area
Director for the SPRING Working Group =5B1=5D.&=23160; I would like to th= ank the
Working Group for providing some information =5B2=5D about the status of<= br class=3D=22=22 /> the Working Group Last Call.

I was a bit surprised to see that one of the Working Group Chairs is
listed as a contributor in
draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.&=23160; It is quite unusua= l
to have the contributor of a Working Group document handle the
Working Group process for the document.&=23160; Would there be a potentia= l
conflict of interest=3F

The summary provides by the Working Group Chair states that the
Responsible Area Director =22has not accepted the related errata=22.&=231= 60; I
took a quick look at erratum eid5933; it is listed as =22Reported=22.&=23= 160; As
the erratum has not been classified as per the relevant IESG
Statement, describing it as =22not accepted=22 is inaccurate.

Regards,
S. Moonesamy

1. https://datatracker.= ietf.org/wg/spring/about/
2. https://mailarchive.ietf..org/arch/msg/spring/or8086G4iYfee5=5F= Icw4PnhkPLBo/
3. https://www.rfc-editor.= org/errata/eid5933

=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
spring mailing list
spring=40ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/spring
=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F
spring mailing list
spring=40ietf.org=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring

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Halpern" , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Thread-Topic: Suggest some text //RE: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Index: AdXuDC2elnCq19RBRj+9EOq2ogHXpQAOZ76AAAAy9oAAFprn8A== Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 02:03:30 +0000 Message-ID: References: <965ff6bbf1cb4c2f8d48b7b535a0cf5b@huawei.com> <2991422b-2de4-f89e-fd79-ada91dc9b3f4@gmail.com> <3F69FA15-F967-44EE-AE1D-600360412BB8@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3F69FA15-F967-44EE-AE1D-600360412BB8@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.202.118] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 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[172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 4F3C5E18233EB5A29A06; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 02:13:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml707-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.157) by lhreml706-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.47) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 02:13:53 +0000 Received: from nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.154) by nkgeml707-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.157) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1713.5; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 10:13:51 +0800 Received: from nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.154]) by nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.154]) with mapi id 15.01.1713.004; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 10:13:51 +0800 From: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" To: =?utf-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= CC: Ted Lemon , "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" , Brian E Carpenter , "Bob Hinden" , "Joel M. Halpern" , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Thread-Topic: Suggest some text //RE: [spring] Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Index: AdXuDC2elnCq19RBRj+9EOq2ogHXpQAUDXSAABJIeaA= Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 02:13:51 +0000 Message-ID: <8ef02a5465104d1996546bc4cbea7ebb@huawei.com> References: <965ff6bbf1cb4c2f8d48b7b535a0cf5b@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.108.202.118] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 02:13:58 -0000 R290IGl0Lg0KVGhhbmtzIGZvciB5b3VyIGNsYXJpZmljYXRpb24gb2YgeW91ciBwb2ludC4gDQoN Ckppbmdyb25nDQoNCi0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQpGcm9tOiDnpZ7mmI7pgZTl k4kgW21haWx0bzpqaW5tZWlAd2lkZS5hZC5qcF0gDQpTZW50OiBTYXR1cmRheSwgRmVicnVhcnkg MjksIDIwMjAgOToyOCBBTQ0KVG86IFhpZWppbmdyb25nIChKaW5ncm9uZykgPHhpZWppbmdyb25n QGh1YXdlaS5jb20+DQpDYzogVGVkIExlbW9uIDxtZWxsb25AZnVndWUuY29tPjsgUGFibG8gQ2Ft YXJpbGxvIChwY2FtYXJpbCkgPHBjYW1hcmlsQGNpc2NvLmNvbT47IEJyaWFuIEUgQ2FycGVudGVy IDxicmlhbi5lLmNhcnBlbnRlckBnbWFpbC5jb20+OyBCb2IgSGluZGVuIDxib2IuaGluZGVuQGdt YWlsLmNvbT47IEpvZWwgTS4gSGFscGVybiA8am1oQGpvZWxoYWxwZXJuLmNvbT47IHNwcmluZ0Bp ZXRmLm9yZzsgNm1hbkBpZXRmLm9yZw0KU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFN1Z2dlc3Qgc29tZSB0ZXh0IC8v UkU6IFtzcHJpbmddIFJlcXVlc3QgdG8gY2xvc2UgdGhlIExDIGFuZCBtb3ZlIGZvcndhcmQvL1JF OiBXR0xDIC0gZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1zcHJpbmctc3J2Ni1uZXR3b3JrLXByb2dyYW1taW5nDQoNCkF0 IEZyaSwgMjggRmViIDIwMjAgMDc6NTQ6MjggKzAwMDAsDQoiWGllamluZ3JvbmcgKEppbmdyb25n KSIgPHhpZWppbmdyb25nQGh1YXdlaS5jb20+IHdyb3RlOg0KDQo+IFRoZSBkZXNpZ24gb2YgUFNQ IGZvciB0aGUgYmVuZWZpdHMgb2YgZGVwbG95bWVudCBpcyBiYXNlZCBvbiB0aGUgDQo+IHVuZGVy c3RhbmRpbmcgdGhhdCBpdCBkb2VzIG5vdCB2aW9sYXRlIHNlY3Rpb24gNCBvZiBSRkM4MjAwLiBJ biBjYXNlIA0KPiB0aGUgUkZDODIwMCB0ZXh0IG1heSBiZSBtb2RpZmllZCBpbiB0aGUgZnV0dXJl LCB0aGUgUFNQIG1heSBhbHNvIG5lZWQgdG8gY2hhbmdlIGFjY29yZGluZ2x5Lg0KDQpObywgaXQg dmlvbGF0ZXMgU2VjdGlvbiA0IG9mIFJGQzgyMDAuICBJdCdzIGEgcGl0eSB0aGF0IHdlIGhhdmUg dG8gZGlzY3VzcyBpdCBhdCB0aGlzIGxldmVsIGR1ZSB0byB0aGUgcG9vciBlZGl0b3JpYWwgd29y ayB0aGVuIChJIHdhcyBhbHNvIHJlc3BvbnNpYmxlIGZvciB0aGF0IGFzIG9uZSBvZiB0aG9zZSBy ZXZpZXdpbmcgdGhlIGJpcyBkcmFmdCksIGJ1dCBhbnlvbmUgd2hvIGludm9sdmVkIHRoZSBkaXNj dXNzaW9uIHNob3VsZCBrbm93IHRoZSBpbnRlbnQgb2YgdGhpcyB0ZXh0IGludGVuZGVkIHRvIHNh eSAoYm9ycm93aW5nIGZyb20gUm9uJ3MgdGV4dCkgIkV4dGVuc2lvbiBoZWFkZXJzIGNhbm5vdCBi ZSBhZGRlZCB0byBhIHBhY2tldCBhZnRlciBpdCBoYXMgbGVmdCB0aGUgaXRzIHNvdXJjZSBub2Rl IGFuZCBleHRlbnNpb24gaGVhZGVycyBjYW5ub3QgYmUgcmVtb3ZlZCBmcm9tIGEgcGFja2V0IHVu dGlsIGl0IGhhcyBhcnJpdmVkIGF0IGl0cyB1bHRpbWF0ZSBkZXN0aW5hdGlvbiIuICBJdCBtaWdo dCBsb29rICJhbiBhdHRlbXB0IG9mIGJsb2NraW5nIGFuIGlubm92YXRpb24gYnkgYSBzbWFsbCBn cm91cCBvZiB2b2NhbCBmdW5kYW1lbnRhbGlzdHMiLCBidXQgaWYgeW91IHNlZSB0aGUgcmVzcG9u c2VzIHdpdGhvdXQgYSBiaWFzLCB5b3UnZCBub3RpY2UgdGhhdCBldmVuIHNvbWUgb2YgdGhvc2Ug d2hvIHNlZW0gbmV1dHJhbCBhYm91dCB0aGUgdW5kZXJseWluZyBTUnY2IG1hdHRlciBpbnRlcnBy ZXQgdGhlIHRleHQgdGhhdCB3YXkuDQoNCkknZCBhbHNvIG5vdGUgdGhhdCBzaW1wbHkgYmVjYXVz ZSBQU1AgdmlvbGF0ZXMgUkZDODIwMCBkb2Vzbid0IGltbWVkaWF0ZWx5IG1lYW4gaXQgKFBTUCkg Im5lZWRzIHRvIGNoYW5nZSIuICBJdCBjYW4gdXBkYXRlIFJGQzgyMDAgd2l0aCBleHBsYWluaW5n IHdoeSBpdCdzIG5lY2Vzc2FyeSBhbmQganVzdGlmaWVkLiAgVGhhdCdzIHdoYXQgSSByZXF1ZXN0 ZWQgYXMgeW91IHN1bW1hcml6ZWQ6DQoNCj4gSmlubWVpOiBpdCBzaG91bGQgc2F5IGl0IHVwZGF0 ZXMgdGhpcyBwYXJ0IG9mIFJGQzgyMDAgYW5kIGV4cGxhaW4gd2h5IGl0J3MganVzdGlmaWVkLg0K DQpBbmQsIHNpbmNlIFBTUCBhdCBsZWFzdCB3b3VsZG4ndCBicmVhayBQTVRVRCwgSSBndWVzcyB0 aGUgdXBkYXRlIHByb3Bvc2FsIHdpbGwgaGF2ZSBtdWNoIG1vcmUgY2hhbmNlIHRvIGJlIGFjY2Vw dGVkIHRoYW4gYSBwcm9wb3NhbCBpbmNsdWRpbmcgRUggaW5zZXJ0aW9uLiAgT24gdGhlIG90aGVy IGhhbmQsIHByZXRlbmRpbmcgdGhlcmUncyBubyB2aW9sYXRpb24gd2lsbCBjZXJ0YWlubHkgdHJp Z2dlciBtYW55IGFwcGVhbHMgYW5kIG9iamVjdGlvbnMgYXQgdGhlIElFVEYgbGFzdCBjYWxsIChJ J2xsIGNlcnRhaW5seSBvYmplY3QgdG8gaXQpLiAgSW4gdGhlIGVuZCwgaXQgY2FuIGVhc2lseSB0 YWtlIG11Y2ggbG9uZ2VyLCBvciBldmVuIGZhaWwsIHRoYW4gZm9ybWFsbHkgY2xhaW1pbmcgYW4g dXBkYXRlIHRvIFJGQzgyMDAuDQoNCi0tDQpKSU5NRUksIFRhdHV5YQ0K From nobody Fri Feb 28 18:38:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 346533A09CA; 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Fri, 28 Feb 2020 18:37:56 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <965ff6bbf1cb4c2f8d48b7b535a0cf5b@huawei.com> <8ef02a5465104d1996546bc4cbea7ebb@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <8ef02a5465104d1996546bc4cbea7ebb@huawei.com> From: Gyan Mishra Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 21:37:45 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" Cc: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden , Brian E Carpenter , "Joel M. Halpern" , "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" , Ted Lemon , "spring@ietf.org" , =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006ef50a059fadd7cb" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 02:38:04 -0000 --0000000000006ef50a059fadd7cb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jingrong & Bruno Here is another point for consideration related to PSP. Drawing an analogy here between MPLS and SRv6 as SRv6 would be the Next Gen replacement of MPLS. Topology A - B - C An LSP is uni directional where the path to FEC destination egress PE can be in either direction where the LSP is built from A to C with PHP node B -and an LSP is built in the reverse direction from C to A with PHP node B. This same philosophy applies to SR both SRv6 and SR-MPLS. So the thought that the final destination egress PE node has legacy hardware with SRH processing limitations would apply to all PEs, both the SR source node which would be acting as a destination node for an LSP as well in the reverse direction. So the idea that PSP is beneficial for the final destination egress PE legacy node old hardware does not make sense. As I mentioned to Pablo all the heavy lifting routing protocols heavy processing is done on the PEs and not the P routers. However due to the scenario described above you can get away with not upgrading the P transit nodes in being SRv6 capable but you really have no choice and have to upgrade all your PEs to be SRv6 capable. Kind regards Gyan On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 9:14 PM Xiejingrong (Jingrong) < xiejingrong@huawei.com> wrote: > Got it. > Thanks for your clarification of your point. > > Jingrong > > -----Original Message----- > From: =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 [mailto:jinmei@wide.ad.jp] > Sent: Saturday, February 29, 2020 9:28 AM > To: Xiejingrong (Jingrong) > Cc: Ted Lemon ; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) < > pcamaril@cisco.com>; Brian E Carpenter ; Bob > Hinden ; Joel M. Halpern ; > spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org > Subject: Re: Suggest some text //RE: [spring] Request to close the LC and > move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming > > At Fri, 28 Feb 2020 07:54:28 +0000, > "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" wrote: > > > The design of PSP for the benefits of deployment is based on the > > understanding that it does not violate section 4 of RFC8200. In case > > the RFC8200 text may be modified in the future, the PSP may also need t= o > change accordingly. > > No, it violates Section 4 of RFC8200. It's a pity that we have to discus= s > it at this level due to the poor editorial work then (I was also > responsible for that as one of those reviewing the bis draft), but anyone > who involved the discussion should know the intent of this text intended = to > say (borrowing from Ron's text) "Extension headers cannot be added to a > packet after it has left the its source node and extension headers cannot > be removed from a packet until it has arrived at its ultimate > destination". It might look "an attempt of blocking an innovation by a > small group of vocal fundamentalists", but if you see the responses witho= ut > a bias, you'd notice that even some of those who seem neutral about the > underlying SRv6 matter interpret the text that way. > > I'd also note that simply because PSP violates RFC8200 doesn't immediatel= y > mean it (PSP) "needs to change". It can update RFC8200 with explaining w= hy > it's necessary and justified. That's what I requested as you summarized: > > > Jinmei: it should say it updates this part of RFC8200 and explain why > it's justified. > > And, since PSP at least wouldn't break PMTUD, I guess the update proposal > will have much more chance to be accepted than a proposal including EH > insertion. On the other hand, pretending there's no violation will > certainly trigger many appeals and objections at the IETF last call (I'll > certainly object to it). In the end, it can easily take much longer, or > even fail, than formally claiming an update to RFC8200. > > -- > JINMEI, Tatuya > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --=20 Gyan Mishra Network Engineering & Technology Verizon Silver Spring, MD 20904 Phone: 301 502-1347 Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com --0000000000006ef50a059fadd7cb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jingrong & Bruno
Here is another point for consideration related t= o PSP.

Drawing an analog= y here between MPLS and SRv6 as SRv6 would be the Next Gen replacement of M= PLS.

Topology

A - B - C
<= br>
An LSP is uni directional where the path to =C2= =A0FEC destination egress PE =C2=A0can be in either direction where the LSP= is built from A to C with PHP node B -and an LSP is built in the reverse d= irection from C to A with PHP node B.

This same philosophy applies to SR both SRv6 and SR-MPLS.

So the thought that the fin= al destination egress PE node has legacy hardware with SRH processing limit= ations would apply to all PEs, both the SR source node which would be actin= g as a destination node for an LSP as well =C2=A0in the reverse direction.<= /div>

So the idea that PSP is = beneficial for the final destination egress PE legacy node old hardware doe= s not make sense.

As I m= entioned to Pablo all the heavy lifting routing protocols heavy processing = is done on the PEs and not the P routers.=C2=A0 However due to the scenario= described above you can get away with not upgrading the P transit nodes in= being SRv6 capable but you really have no choice and have to upgrade all y= our PEs to be SRv6 capable.

Kind regards=C2=A0

G= yan

On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 9:14 PM Xiejingrong (Jingrong) <xiejingrong@huawei.com> wrote:
Got it.
Thanks for your clarification of your point.

Jingrong

-----Original Message-----
From: =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 [mailto:jinmei@wide.ad.jp]
Sent: Saturday, February 29, 2020 9:28 AM
To: Xiejingrong (Jingrong) <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
Cc: Ted Lemon <mel= lon@fugue.com>; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril@cisco.com>; Brian E Carp= enter <= brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>; Joel M. Ha= lpern <jmh@joel= halpern.com>; s= pring@ietf.org; 6man= @ietf.org
Subject: Re: Suggest some text //RE: [spring] Request to close the LC and m= ove forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

At Fri, 28 Feb 2020 07:54:28 +0000,
"Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" <xiejingrong@huawei.com> wrote:

> The design of PSP for the benefits of deployment is based on the
> understanding that it does not violate section 4 of RFC8200. In case <= br> > the RFC8200 text may be modified in the future, the PSP may also need = to change accordingly.

No, it violates Section 4 of RFC8200.=C2=A0 It's a pity that we have to= discuss it at this level due to the poor editorial work then (I was also r= esponsible for that as one of those reviewing the bis draft), but anyone wh= o involved the discussion should know the intent of this text intended to s= ay (borrowing from Ron's text) "Extension headers cannot be added = to a packet after it has left the its source node and extension headers can= not be removed from a packet until it has arrived at its ultimate destinati= on".=C2=A0 It might look "an attempt of blocking an innovation by= a small group of vocal fundamentalists", but if you see the responses= without a bias, you'd notice that even some of those who seem neutral = about the underlying SRv6 matter interpret the text that way.

I'd also note that simply because PSP violates RFC8200 doesn't imme= diately mean it (PSP) "needs to change".=C2=A0 It can update RFC8= 200 with explaining why it's necessary and justified.=C2=A0 That's = what I requested as you summarized:

> Jinmei: it should say it updates this part of RFC8200 and explain why = it's justified.

And, since PSP at least wouldn't break PMTUD, I guess the update propos= al will have much more chance to be accepted than a proposal including EH i= nsertion.=C2=A0 On the other hand, pretending there's no violation will= certainly trigger many appeals and objections at the IETF last call (I'= ;ll certainly object to it).=C2=A0 In the end, it can easily take much long= er, or even fail, than formally claiming an update to RFC8200.

--
JINMEI, Tatuya
_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
--
<= div dir=3D"ltr">

Gyan= =C2=A0 Mishra

Network Engineering & Technology= =C2=A0

Verizon=C2=A0

Silver Spring, MD 20= 904

Phone: 301 502-1347

<= font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.= com



--0000000000006ef50a059fadd7cb-- From nobody Fri Feb 28 18:45:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49B253A09E2; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 18:45:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iBWKjSmcCc-d; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 18:45:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd34.google.com (mail-io1-xd34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0CA8A3A09E1; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 18:45:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd34.google.com with SMTP id u17so790907iog.11; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 18:45:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=K3x5aaaLDscJ2pn4USu8nbCgnf3oZvA9R7/d5a/OYDI=; b=popU0f8kovoCht2h8D/k8yg8wwq9kor6qV8rRwseGWV3R3/hvWSGk2EpyeEDElAaAd MxfJ2oa6k6X/WDQ57j+6j59/b0bY/NewomJgJ7lH6DHj6A88Ldw6xI6+ts73AHJrgBmJ oJKS8nfmmR5QkcXIRMTHk9SU55eaV07CXXG3a7wj0szNb5sIOI9nbwqIk9ohSieuSPgc WEhYBLy9RJNeJ4ZGXnjysuN3DIdZKsnpdgOieB2Qo17rdygSO1w3qunTE9vG7fb2ZqM8 LcpyzOXaEwqfMzKzIge0Vg1rp80lC615kMslbGn2QhKkkv15ojbcLqpRAd+g6rMsKi8g QaEg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=K3x5aaaLDscJ2pn4USu8nbCgnf3oZvA9R7/d5a/OYDI=; b=tjsuc7s9XubpEecvfs6ivgqqCCKPIuty3B7bKRgy/hSX77VzTkdGjWXAePRqfZy7V0 zSLauKRoQaRzkFgyygvdfWXTulnv93lkEysDIgVINUNRLXl5NPL1aTkX6RM2qgj3vey4 AZ7GT3rQWg9qNar+0A0oUr8Ic8X9SniOQiH9l11dX+ifndB/ppA+ohc3Mi907HKX3pys +0GlWeYQhlGLEjUYom1xfbMc6AXopShJTD+oHvH2qu1KfP6D7PEwZnVlq4GTfIQgE4/l lQdQmEI9Uz9+bhAdGsoXadpC9f8DlGzom7VYl19c0aoJK35/pR4iS2ZraAtzpkTTEL4J GhNA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVatkU7K+V/kd2JyDMTSrmeVN/6iD3PzXdLBtDmeCZVlqE8fD/U 9cMBDkpZmJ5at7UyrqaRIkeyYyqmntYuxGZH+/k= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyFkYyClfzJ4KktWA95Rw4j+fz2EIdmytPj9sgYGnCSQ+G0HOcOeNWGao7/j+LF7TIqPs7HtHbWcU8/FliU92M= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6638:517:: with SMTP id i23mr5871617jar.52.1582944352270; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 18:45:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <965ff6bbf1cb4c2f8d48b7b535a0cf5b@huawei.com> <8ef02a5465104d1996546bc4cbea7ebb@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: From: Gyan Mishra Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 21:45:41 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" Cc: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Bob Hinden , Brian E Carpenter , "Joel M. Halpern" , "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" , Ted Lemon , "spring@ietf.org" , =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d10283059fadf355" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 02:45:55 -0000 --000000000000d10283059fadf355 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Along those same lines of thought. If you upgrade all your source SR node ingress PEs to be SRv6 capable you have in fact upgraded all your final destination egress PE nodes to be SRv6 capable. Gyan On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 9:37 PM Gyan Mishra wrote: > Jingrong & Bruno > > Here is another point for consideration related to PSP. > > Drawing an analogy here between MPLS and SRv6 as SRv6 would be the Next > Gen replacement of MPLS. > > Topology > > A - B - C > > An LSP is uni directional where the path to FEC destination egress PE > can be in either direction where the LSP is built from A to C with PHP > node B -and an LSP is built in the reverse direction from C to A with PHP > node B. > > This same philosophy applies to SR both SRv6 and SR-MPLS. > > So the thought that the final destination egress PE node has legacy > hardware with SRH processing limitations would apply to all PEs, both the > SR source node which would be acting as a destination node for an LSP as > well in the reverse direction. > > So the idea that PSP is beneficial for the final destination egress PE > legacy node old hardware does not make sense. > > As I mentioned to Pablo all the heavy lifting routing protocols heavy > processing is done on the PEs and not the P routers. However due to the > scenario described above you can get away with not upgrading the P transi= t > nodes in being SRv6 capable but you really have no choice and have to > upgrade all your PEs to be SRv6 capable. > > Kind regards > > Gyan > > On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 9:14 PM Xiejingrong (Jingrong) < > xiejingrong@huawei.com> wrote: > >> Got it. >> Thanks for your clarification of your point. >> >> Jingrong >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 [mailto:jinmei@wide.ad.jp] >> Sent: Saturday, February 29, 2020 9:28 AM >> To: Xiejingrong (Jingrong) >> Cc: Ted Lemon ; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) < >> pcamaril@cisco.com>; Brian E Carpenter ; >> Bob Hinden ; Joel M. Halpern = ; >> spring@ietf.org; 6man@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: Suggest some text //RE: [spring] Request to close the LC an= d >> move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming >> >> At Fri, 28 Feb 2020 07:54:28 +0000, >> "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" wrote: >> >> > The design of PSP for the benefits of deployment is based on the >> > understanding that it does not violate section 4 of RFC8200. In case >> > the RFC8200 text may be modified in the future, the PSP may also need >> to change accordingly. >> >> No, it violates Section 4 of RFC8200. It's a pity that we have to >> discuss it at this level due to the poor editorial work then (I was also >> responsible for that as one of those reviewing the bis draft), but anyon= e >> who involved the discussion should know the intent of this text intended= to >> say (borrowing from Ron's text) "Extension headers cannot be added to a >> packet after it has left the its source node and extension headers canno= t >> be removed from a packet until it has arrived at its ultimate >> destination". It might look "an attempt of blocking an innovation by a >> small group of vocal fundamentalists", but if you see the responses with= out >> a bias, you'd notice that even some of those who seem neutral about the >> underlying SRv6 matter interpret the text that way. >> >> I'd also note that simply because PSP violates RFC8200 doesn't >> immediately mean it (PSP) "needs to change". It can update RFC8200 with >> explaining why it's necessary and justified. That's what I requested as >> you summarized: >> >> > Jinmei: it should say it updates this part of RFC8200 and explain why >> it's justified. >> >> And, since PSP at least wouldn't break PMTUD, I guess the update proposa= l >> will have much more chance to be accepted than a proposal including EH >> insertion. On the other hand, pretending there's no violation will >> certainly trigger many appeals and objections at the IETF last call (I'l= l >> certainly object to it). In the end, it can easily take much longer, or >> even fail, than formally claiming an update to RFC8200. >> >> -- >> JINMEI, Tatuya >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >> > -- > > Gyan Mishra > > Network Engineering & Technology > > Verizon > > Silver Spring, MD 20904 > > Phone: 301 502-1347 > > Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com > > > > -- Gyan Mishra Network Engineering & Technology Verizon Silver Spring, MD 20904 Phone: 301 502-1347 Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com --000000000000d10283059fadf355 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Along those same lines of thought.

If you upgrade all your so= urce SR node ingress PEs to be SRv6 capable you have in fact upgraded all y= our final destination egress PE nodes to be SRv6 capable.

Gyan

=
On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 9:37 PM Gyan = Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> wrote:




<= /div>
A - B - C

An LSP is uni directional where the path to =C2=A0FEC destination= egress PE =C2=A0can be in either direction where the LSP is built from A t= o C with PHP node B -and an LSP is built in the reverse direction from C to= A with PHP node B.

This= same philosophy applies to SR both SRv6 and SR-MPLS.

So the thought that the final destination egr= ess PE node has legacy hardware with SRH processing limitations would apply= to all PEs, both the SR source node which would be acting as a destination= node for an LSP as well =C2=A0in the reverse direction.

So the idea that PSP is beneficial for the= final destination egress PE legacy node old hardware does not make sense.<= /div>

As I mentioned to Pablo = all the heavy lifting routing protocols heavy processing is done on the PEs= and not the P routers.=C2=A0 However due to the scenario described above y= ou can get away with not upgrading the P transit nodes in being SRv6 capabl= e but you really have no choice and have to upgrade all your PEs to be SRv6= capable.

Kind regards= =C2=A0

Gyan
On Fri, = Feb 28, 2020 at 9:14 PM Xiejingrong (Jingrong) <xiejingrong@huawei.com> wrote:
Got it.
Thanks for your clarification of your point.

Jingrong

-----Original Message-----
From: =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 [mailto:jinmei@wide.ad.jp]
Sent: Saturday, February 29, 2020 9:28 AM
To: Xiejingrong (Jingrong) <xiejingrong@huawei.com>
Cc: Ted Lemon <mel= lon@fugue.com>; Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril) <pcamaril@cisco.com>; Brian E Carp= enter <= brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>; Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>; Joel M. Ha= lpern <jmh@joel= halpern.com>; s= pring@ietf.org; 6man= @ietf.org
Subject: Re: Suggest some text //RE: [spring] Request to close the LC and m= ove forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

At Fri, 28 Feb 2020 07:54:28 +0000,
"Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" <xiejingrong@huawei.com> wrote:

> The design of PSP for the benefits of deployment is based on the
> understanding that it does not violate section 4 of RFC8200. In case <= br> > the RFC8200 text may be modified in the future, the PSP may also need = to change accordingly.

No, it violates Section 4 of RFC8200.=C2=A0 It's a pity that we have to= discuss it at this level due to the poor editorial work then (I was also r= esponsible for that as one of those reviewing the bis draft), but anyone wh= o involved the discussion should know the intent of this text intended to s= ay (borrowing from Ron's text) "Extension headers cannot be added = to a packet after it has left the its source node and extension headers can= not be removed from a packet until it has arrived at its ultimate destinati= on".=C2=A0 It might look "an attempt of blocking an innovation by= a small group of vocal fundamentalists", but if you see the responses= without a bias, you'd notice that even some of those who seem neutral = about the underlying SRv6 matter interpret the text that way.

I'd also note that simply because PSP violates RFC8200 doesn't imme= diately mean it (PSP) "needs to change".=C2=A0 It can update RFC8= 200 with explaining why it's necessary and justified.=C2=A0 That's = what I requested as you summarized:

> Jinmei: it should say it updates this part of RFC8200 and explain why = it's justified.

And, since PSP at least wouldn't break PMTUD, I guess the update propos= al will have much more chance to be accepted than a proposal including EH i= nsertion.=C2=A0 On the other hand, pretending there's no violation will= certainly trigger many appeals and objections at the IETF last call (I'= ;ll certainly object to it).=C2=A0 In the end, it can easily take much long= er, or even fail, than formally claiming an update to RFC8200.

--
JINMEI, Tatuya
_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
--

Gyan=C2=A0 Mishra

Network Engineering & Technology=C2=A0

V= erizon=C2=A0

Silver Spring, MD 20904

Phon= e: 301 502-1347

Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com



=
--
<= div dir=3D"ltr">

Gyan= =C2=A0 Mishra

Network Engineering & Technology= =C2=A0

Verizon=C2=A0

Silver Spring, MD 20= 904

Phone: 301 502-1347

<= font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.= com



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verify=NO); Fri, 28 Feb 2020 20:29:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1582950552; x=1583036952; i=@elandsys.com; bh=2ouPLo4UW5HBtbBQ6CuqqCWfPJrFhBsoAtQgjqbwF1c=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=BFPYv3kUqQPsTGvE2Twfona+h4zZCncPKYTexC8RoITNn99Ryw89l72Ucur9yTuSn 7cfQJBNgJnhK+6c7y0p/550t+q5C9HRwc6RIwDlFfLJaZtaOOS3QErwbH3sNZ195A4 o54beiWMqkLs5oQObBBi3dvJOiAgqYDPmCfot/Sw= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20200228202303.0b9c39a0@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 20:28:17 -0800 To: "Carlos Pignataro (cpignata)" , Jeff Tantsura , spring@ietf.org From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: References: <17421_1575566127_5DE93B2F_17421_93_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D1A3DA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5518_1582908787_5E594573_5518_436_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD1BCA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <9b677b7c-fe52-dbae-7f83-2b5be5194325@gont.com.ar> <6.2.5.6.2.20200228132634.1060a610@elandnews.com> <17421_1575566127_5DE93B2F_17421_93_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D1A3DA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5518_1582908787_5E594573_5518_436_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD1BCA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <9b677b7c-fe52-dbae-7f83-2b5be5194325@gont.com.ar> <6.2.5.6.2.20200228132634.1060a610@elandnews.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 04:29:29 -0000 Hi Carlos, Jeff, Thanks for the comments. Regards, S. Moonesamy From nobody Sat Feb 29 02:45:31 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB1E73A0E6E for ; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 02:45:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id viArJ5HF_NgL for ; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 02:45:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x32d.google.com (mail-ot1-x32d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 643813A0E6C for ; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 02:45:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x32d.google.com with SMTP id w6so5109688otk.0 for ; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 02:45:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=m9tz/QybCUT6ZtAYJKuU6BshrH7CKCiGlr9DUjhDlJ8=; b=RS6m1VXI9kZjkU0EaRI/tKpNMNihjbhU5CJeG36KPnpii8FiWus6nZZtRhZK03ya4f jvlHEV3pRKHVa2mju1I0cg+eKPXru+Hjy3tnijoRMAPlEmJ8dqzHB35d8soKi1H6pw9x 8Rea69EAi2oU8JK5Rcj2Yo7A+WgJ88309B/U3R/972rnpOWLv8EqtGTHimw02Fl8Mcrm 032nhut8GR+DgpJ3JV2viJiLlos2WawHduUnFud54Q0ZqsW51trb6Y9aojCPCo6opGXN zciKJQx9twHQa/0W7u95HxZuQ9V0uMkALXQTngBNzqXSxxHr3vPCyCaqRj+A+7GYryVf WRMw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=m9tz/QybCUT6ZtAYJKuU6BshrH7CKCiGlr9DUjhDlJ8=; b=CfpLEwKfchFJh9TpDesjMlvWmjhmnoVzAHg1houwH7NLSeJrj9RskTjb8o5q2JBAvu YxbCxgEMTJUfhJMpmO4Nc028Td2tQw2FCFIVvGL6/sq1+4Td9RS9VExvJh/hsOJNg+8B aO3aTMlGz4PKcLdZLaL4zvr7Mm7wanXU0sW+P3Kvl+4y56VTKA2701T/KDA+KSM9Eojp ozjfi92C3z770HLk5YZKI5w7C93KcMX6rCvsOZ6oz5on4o5mnQIQP0Nf8mN9aE29UOU1 HQc0MbPdt5A7fLXCPUcr+Bo64NC1yeVAv5ObmAGQqANdbeZUiFNCBbMnjk9+qHIVbPxz up3g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVhmq5oQOBuZFbzJzkmFc3KotkK/WU6wmRKpnEHRRuC73WEjNJQ /J9OBIWm40rt5gSdT0p3q8GIK/h0Mm741hxASDp+9A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyaiSXP49lLodJcp8UvFwtVwdT53Z3HSrP7mHzAKx5eI6N3iVhHKMXTpxPHlDF+byHNPeO6j8Ms2b0tejpZeIs= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:160c:: with SMTP id g12mr6367318otr.82.1582973120793; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 02:45:20 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <199B7645-A2AC-4E1A-9E6E-7638A200BE80@steffann.nl> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 11:45:11 +0100 Message-ID: To: Mark Smith Cc: Warren Kumari , James Guichard , SPRING WG List , 6man WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008ddff1059fb4a657" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] RFC8200 update? X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 10:45:30 -0000 --0000000000008ddff1059fb4a657 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Mark, I actually fully agree with your below note. However my reasoning to agree perhaps is slightly different then yours :). I agree on the basis that as defined today in spite huge efforts and good will by all involved in IPv6 definition it is just not flexible enough to accommodate current and future needs. Your reasoning seems to be the opposite - IPv6 is great as is or "it is what it is: enjoy as served" - and just applications looking for transport need to be trimmed down to fit it. Clearly we have different opinions here - but in my books networks are to serve user needs and carry modern applications as opposed to act as an emperor telling everyone around how and what can be carried. And to be very clear - I am not saying you are wrong. Perhaps you look at train analogy - sure if each passenger would start messing with train car/wagons construction the train would clearly not go far. But if so we just need a new train architecture rather then saying - oh no Mr. SR you can not travel at all. Many thx, R. On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 2:13 AM Mark Smith wrote: > > > On Sat, 29 Feb 2020, 06:55 Warren Kumari, wrote: > >> On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 9:02 AM Robert Raszuk wrote: >> > >> > > interestingly enough MPLS took the same approach >> > >> > Well not really. As you know, MPLS unicast and multicast have a new >> ethertype. >> >> And this is a critical distinction -- Brian Carpenter's limited domain >> document (draft-carpenter-limited-domains) says: >> "Domain boundaries that are defined administratively (e.g. by address >> filtering rules in routers) are prone to leakage caused by human >> error, especially if the limited domain traffic appears otherwise >> normal to the boundary routers. In this case, the network operator >> needs to take active steps to protect the boundary. This form of >> leakage is much less likely if nodes must be explicitly configured to >> handle a given limited domain protocol, for example by installing a >> specific protocol handler." >> > > Using IPv6 for SR is fundamentally using the wrong tool for the job. > > IPv6 is an internetworking protocol used to network networks and to > internetwork all hosts attached to all of those networks. > > The SR problem space is typically limited to local network or sub-network, > and usually only between network elements, rather than out to end hosts. > > It does make sense to try to use a internetworking protocol to solve a > local sub-network problem when the internetworking protocol has become > commodity. The benefits of the cheapness of the commodity protocol should > outweigh the costs of the drawbacks and compromises that need to be made to > use it. > > However, the moment customising the commodity to better suit the problem > starts is the moment the benefits of using the existing commodity start > being lost. Customise too much and all of the benefits of choosing a > commodity in the first place disappear. > > That's why I fundamentally think changing IPv6 to suit SR should be > avoided as much as possible. > > Compromising SR to suit and fit within existing IPv6 would retain the > benefits of using existing commodity IPv6. Customising IPv6 to suit SR > risks throwing the commodity benefits "baby out with the bathwater", with > the more radical the customising, the greater risk. > > Regards, > Mark. > --0000000000008ddff1059fb4a657 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Mark,

I actually fu= lly agree with your below note.=C2=A0

However my r= easoning to agree perhaps is slightly different then yours :).=C2=A0
<= div>
I agree on the basis that as defined today in spite huge= efforts and good will by all involved in IPv6 definition it is just not fl= exible enough to accommodate=C2=A0current and future needs.=C2=A0

Your reasoning seems to be the opposite - IPv6 is great as = is or "it is what it is: enjoy as served" - and just applications= looking for transport need to be trimmed down to fit it.=C2=A0
<= br>
Clearly we have different opinions here - but in my books net= works are to serve user needs and carry modern applications as opposed=C2= =A0to act as an emperor telling everyone around how and what can be carried= .=C2=A0

And to be very clear - I am not saying you= are wrong. Perhaps you look at train analogy - sure if each passenger woul= d start messing with train car/wagons construction the train would clearly = not go far. But if so we just need a new train architecture rather then say= ing - oh no Mr. SR you can not travel at all.=C2=A0

Many thx,
R.

On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 2:13 AM Ma= rk Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.c= om> wrote:


On Sat, 29 Feb 2020, 06:55 Warren K= umari, <warren@ku= mari.net> wrote:
On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 9:02 AM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net<= /a>> wrote:
>
> > interestingly enough MPLS took the same approach
>
> Well not really. As you know, MPLS unicast and multicast have a new et= hertype.

And this is a critical distinction -- Brian Carpenter's limited domain<= br> document (draft-carpenter-limited-domains) says:
"Domain boundaries that are defined administratively (e.g. by address<= br> filtering rules in routers) are prone to leakage caused by human
error, especially if the limited domain traffic appears otherwise
normal to the boundary routers. In this case, the network operator
needs to take active steps to protect the boundary. This form of
leakage is much less likely if nodes must be explicitly configured to
handle a given limited domain protocol, for example by installing a
specific protocol handler."





That's why I fundamentally think changing IPv6 to suit SR should be a= voided as much as possible.


--0000000000008ddff1059fb4a657-- From nobody Sat Feb 29 03:06:40 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 047863A048D for ; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 03:06:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aNRkFeQkwEcM for ; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 03:06:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x343.google.com (mail-ot1-x343.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::343]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 10D063A0496 for ; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 03:06:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x343.google.com with SMTP id r16so5136394otd.2 for ; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 03:06:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=jKXwbEJk/xj0ki9T1LYaIP4qigmToxpOCf3leVjhEPo=; b=Q4RLowpdnk2SeKOtuyaHLFea6/z2RUf+PZHiwMgp/+ABC7mfVJer0tOnqZPsS5GZIm NZaQq0xXNLMlt0iw+fcZgB04gvyjTk4UM/TW476J7Eryx5X6hOyllLgHfDyVlaKuT1JY EYNcuItl2yMespWmZaJ9qN1HqmqNN8pfds3AZAXbRoc2MlW3jQ87gSU4Qy3rXEKXmjRK dwPxRn23DkIuQ3ALPI0E47tt78pkviWu5skMZb3xF8Jy4dc2/hSiPJZEwY6FH02vP+A5 ulfg6M9fl8rjVRU5YwHLGOGjlps1XCXHAclufFPwdQxXEuE18qYzM4wGCDcvprUKvyq0 ZAXQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=jKXwbEJk/xj0ki9T1LYaIP4qigmToxpOCf3leVjhEPo=; b=SvYOMgye+/Xi878nA/QAROtpkgy+Xqq9/+bWVMFXyBUrGlu/esSZdfNomOhwlmB/A8 SG8D2wrb+w+GbWRFGaqvICnk3ALtJj/Hfgqpa6Vup4Xq32fWxTfEnuc5goc+eV9SzKYs 9InBmYMDGReC21+ChNwztCHezlJrUUPlS/MTHdUF+jECS5ZJhrfP+l+mNSLldIUU3aXU 0Eip324BIU7jMXgQnrYYJHWf10SSNeAXohy4D7F3/XF3QwKbQxPEDyIFYzvToilI37YG iFUSrIE8PF5d6ymw/P/DVQ4oVhIwh+z+ehs+IfljFf1A4NXDDbCwSfTaqUFLu3j+wVFw InZA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUWOoldDA3FFSyyVVjcxuJtwUIxrae6KFYsKtKTsty03tTgZi+w 2hGOMo8EvH8rOIGAa4Z1neFSfbq4NYTwKDVddAcL3QtgJDI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqza28rEicIcGDH/8fc4k4pedjL5u/LzPyNK5/Exp8vPKfpxk4DgOEsFeG1ee4wOT6krK0diMDHOgH+DfIW7XGY= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:160c:: with SMTP id g12mr6411733otr.82.1582974386254; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 03:06:26 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <965ff6bbf1cb4c2f8d48b7b535a0cf5b@huawei.com> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 12:06:17 +0100 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= Cc: "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, Ted Lemon , Bob Hinden , Brian E Carpenter , "Joel M. Halpern" , "Pablo Camarillo (pcamaril)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fb40f1059fb4f1e6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 11:06:30 -0000 --000000000000fb40f1059fb4f1e6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Jinmei, Even if RFC8200 section 4 text would say: "Extension headers cannot be added to a packet after it has left its source node and extension headers cannot be removed from a packet until it has arrived at its ultimate destination". PSP would be still not be violating anything said in this sentence. Reason being is that we are dealing here with an *encapsulated* packet which has as its ultimate destination SR node X. That SR node X is to perform or not PSP. So it is still fully compliant with the specification. IMHO the only grey area as pointed by Brian is if RFC8200 section 4.4 really mandates you to look at segments_left before processing the packet or it is equally legal to look at that value after local processing occurs. Definition says: Segments Left 8-bit unsigned integer. Number of route segments remaining, i.e., number of explicitly listed intermediate nodes still to be visited before reaching the final destination. which to me really means that as long as you recognize given routing header type you can decrement this value and if zero remove it. Besides that is a minor detail - as NPG draft could be updated to say: S14.1. If (Segments Left Before Local Decrement =3D=3D 1) { S14.2. Update the Next Header field in the preceding header to the Next Header value of the SRH S14.3. Decrease the IPv6 header Payload Length by the Hdr Ext Len value of the SRH S14.4. Remove the SRH from the IPv6 extension header chain S14.5. } Many thx, R. On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 2:28 AM =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 wrote: > At Fri, 28 Feb 2020 07:54:28 +0000, > "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" wrote: > > > The design of PSP for the benefits of deployment is based on the > understanding > > that it does not violate section 4 of RFC8200. In case the RFC8200 text > may be > > modified in the future, the PSP may also need to change accordingly. > > No, it violates Section 4 of RFC8200. It's a pity that we have to > discuss it at this level due to the poor editorial work then (I was > also responsible for that as one of those reviewing the bis draft), > but anyone who involved the discussion should know the intent of this > text intended to say (borrowing from Ron's text) "Extension headers > cannot be added to a packet after it has left the its source node and > extension headers cannot be removed from a packet until it has arrived > at its ultimate destination". It might look "an attempt of blocking > an innovation by a small group of vocal fundamentalists", but if you > see the responses without a bias, you'd notice that even some of those > who seem neutral about the underlying SRv6 matter interpret the text > that way. > > I'd also note that simply because PSP violates RFC8200 doesn't > immediately mean it (PSP) "needs to change". It can update RFC8200 with > explaining why it's necessary and justified. That's what I > requested as you summarized: > > > Jinmei: it should say it updates this part of RFC8200 and explain why > it's justified. > > And, since PSP at least wouldn't break PMTUD, I guess the update > proposal will have much more chance to be accepted than a proposal > including EH insertion. On the other hand, pretending there's no > violation will certainly trigger many appeals and objections at the > IETF last call (I'll certainly object to it). In the end, it can > easily take much longer, or even fail, than formally claiming an > update to RFC8200. > > -- > JINMEI, Tatuya > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --000000000000fb40f1059fb4f1e6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Jinmei,

Even if RFC8200 section 4 = text would say:=C2=A0

=C2=A0"Extension header= s cannot be added to a packet after it has left its source node and extensi= on headers cannot be removed from a packet until it has arrived at its ulti= mate destination".

PSP would be still not be = violating anything said in this sentence. Reason being is that we are deali= ng here with an *encapsulated* packet which has as its ultimate destination= SR node X. That SR node X is to perform or not PSP. So it is still fully c= ompliant=C2=A0with the specification.=C2=A0

IMHO t= he only grey area as pointed by Brian is if RFC8200 section 4.4 really mand= ates you to look at segments_left before processing the packet or it is equ= ally legal to look at that value after local processing occurs. Definition = says:=C2=A0


      Segments Left       8-bit u=
nsigned integer.  Number of route
                          segments remaining, i.e., number of explicitly
                          listed intermediate nodes still to be visited
                          before reaching the final destination.

which to me really means that as long as you recognize= given routing header type you can decrement this value and if zero remove = it.=C2=A0

Besides that is a minor detail - as NPG = draft could be updated to say:=C2=A0

 S14.1.   If (Segments Left Before L=
ocal Decrement =3D=3D 1) {
 S14.2.      Update the Next Header field in the preceding header to the
                Next Header value of the SRH
 S14.3.      Decrease the IPv6 header Payload Length by the Hdr Ext Len
                value of the SRH
 S14.4.      Remove the SRH from the IPv6 extension header chain
 S14.5.   }

Many thx,
R.=C2=A0
=

On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 2:28 AM =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 = <jinmei@wide.ad.jp> wrote:
At Fri, 28 Feb 20= 20 07:54:28 +0000,
"Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" <xiejingrong@huawei.com> wrote:

> The design of PSP for the benefits of deployment is based on the under= standing
> that it does not violate section 4 of RFC8200. In case the RFC8200 tex= t may be
> modified in the future, the PSP may also need to change accordingly.
No, it violates Section 4 of RFC8200.=C2=A0 It's a pity that we have to=
discuss it at this level due to the poor editorial work then (I was
also responsible for that as one of those reviewing the bis draft),
but anyone who involved the discussion should know the intent of this
text intended to say (borrowing from Ron's text) "Extension header= s
cannot be added to a packet after it has left the its source node and
extension headers cannot be removed from a packet until it has arrived
at its ultimate destination".=C2=A0 It might look "an attempt of = blocking
an innovation by a small group of vocal fundamentalists", but if you see the responses without a bias, you'd notice that even some of those<= br> who seem neutral about the underlying SRv6 matter interpret the text
that way.

I'd also note that simply because PSP violates RFC8200 doesn't
immediately mean it (PSP) "needs to change".=C2=A0 It can update = RFC8200 with
explaining why it's necessary and justified.=C2=A0 That's what I requested as you summarized:

> Jinmei: it should say it updates this part of RFC8200 and explain why = it's justified.

And, since PSP at least wouldn't break PMTUD, I guess the update
proposal will have much more chance to be accepted than a proposal
including EH insertion.=C2=A0 On the other hand, pretending there's no<= br> violation will certainly trigger many appeals and objections at the
IETF last call (I'll certainly object to it).=C2=A0 In the end, it can<= br> easily take much longer, or even fail, than formally claiming an
update to RFC8200.

--
JINMEI, Tatuya

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
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X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 12:28:26 -0000 --_000_DM6PR05MB63483E662E12949314AB4ED3AEE90DM6PR05MB6348namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark, It is possible to implement the SR architecture without perverting IPv6. Th= at's what SRm6 is all about. SR solves the following problems: * Traffic steering * Passing information to segment endpoints to support SFC * Passing information to the packet's ultimate destination to support V= PNs * Fast Reroute All of these can be addressed without breaking the IPv6 architecture. See: * https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bonica-6man-comp-rtg-hdr/ for = traffic steering * https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bonica-6man-seg-end-opt/ for d= elivering information to segment endpoints * https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bonica-6man-vpn-dest-opt/ for = delivering information to the packet's ultimate destination Fast reroute can be achieved with an IPv6-compliant variation of TI-LFA. Cr= eate the repair path by encapsulating the packet in another IPv6 header tha= t has its own Routing header. = Ron From: ipv6 On Behalf Of Mark Smith Sent: Friday, February 28, 2020 8:13 PM To: Warren Kumari Cc: James Guichard ; SPRING WG List ; 6man WG ; Robert Raszuk Subject: Re: [spring] RFC8200 update? On Sat, 29 Feb 2020, 06:55 Warren Kumari, > wrote: On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 9:02 AM Robert Raszuk > wrote: > > > interestingly enough MPLS took the same approach > > Well not really. As you know, MPLS unicast and multicast have a new ether= type. And this is a critical distinction -- Brian Carpenter's limited domain document (draft-carpenter-limited-domains) says: "Domain boundaries that are defined administratively (e.g. by address filtering rules in routers) are prone to leakage caused by human error, especially if the limited domain traffic appears otherwise normal to the boundary routers. In this case, the network operator needs to take active steps to protect the boundary. This form of leakage is much less likely if nodes must be explicitly configured to handle a given limited domain protocol, for example by installing a specific protocol handler." Using IPv6 for SR is fundamentally using the wrong tool for the job. IPv6 is an internetworking protocol used to network networks and to interne= twork all hosts attached to all of those networks. The SR problem space is typically limited to local network or sub-network, = and usually only between network elements, rather than out to end hosts. It does make sense to try to use a internetworking protocol to solve a loca= l sub-network problem when the internetworking protocol has become commodit= y. The benefits of the cheapness of the commodity protocol should outweigh = the costs of the drawbacks and compromises that need to be made to use it. However, the moment customising the commodity to better suit the problem st= arts is the moment the benefits of using the existing commodity start being= lost. Customise too much and all of the benefits of choosing a commodity i= n the first place disappear. That's why I fundamentally think changing IPv6 to suit SR should be avoided= as much as possible. Compromising SR to suit and fit within existing IPv6 would retain the benef= its of using existing commodity IPv6. Customising IPv6 to suit SR risks thr= owing the commodity benefits "baby out with the bathwater", with the more r= adical the customising, the greater risk. Regards, Mark. > > SRv6 folks were just too nice and thought to leverage 0x86DD. I think tha= t was a mistake. I further think we should fix it. > > Cheers, > R. > > On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 2:44 PM James Guichard > wrote: >> >> Hi Sander, >> >> RFC8402 explicitly says in section 8 security considerations that "by de= fault, the explicit routing information MUST NOT be leaked through the boun= daries of the administered domain". The intent therefore seems clear that "= global internet" does not apply; interestingly enough MPLS took the same ap= proach and has been widely deployed for years. >> >> Respectfully, >> >> Jim >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: spring > O= n Behalf Of Sander Steffann >> Sent: Friday, February 28, 2020 8:25 AM >> To: Wang, Weibin (NSB - CN/Shanghai) > >> Cc: SPRING WG List >; 6man WG >; Andrew Alston > >> Subject: Re: [spring] RFC8200 update? >> >> Hi, >> >> > In the bearer of srv6 traffic, srv6 domain is only one part of the who= le packet journey. Because the srv6 domain is trusted by single operator, i= t is no necessary for the outer IPv6 header (for performing SRH function) t= o inherit all IPv6 extension headers specially designed for the initial end= -to-end IPv6 communication, for example, the AH is not must for outer IPv6 = header and its SRH. Therefore, the outer IPv6 processing of srv6 traffic ca= n appropriately relax the restrictions, that is to say, the outer IPv6 enca= psulation only inherits a part of IPv6 spec. >> >> No. It uses IPv6 and must therefore follow the rules of IPv6. What I pro= pose is to update IPv6 to make this possible, but you can't break the rules= in a standard without consensus that the rules can be changed. >> >> > For example, it is allowed to perform functions such as PSP within SRv= 6 domain; Could we treat IPv6 headers function of internal and external la= yers differently, after all, their purposes are different. >> >> Let's not use implicit definitions of "internal" and "external" layers. = They don't make sense in a global protocol (and despite your claims that SR= v6 is limited to a specific domain, it really isn't. It uses global IPv6 ad= dresses and can traverse the global internet). Let's define global rules th= at apply to everybody instead, and standardise this behaviour. >> >> Cheers, >> Sander >> >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPv6 working group mailing list ipv6@ietf.org Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 -------------------------------------------------------------------- Juniper Business Use Only --_000_DM6PR05MB63483E662E12949314AB4ED3AEE90DM6PR05MB6348namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Mark,

 

It is possible to implement the SR architecture with= out perverting IPv6. That’s what SRm6 is all about.

 

SR solves the following problems:

 

  • Traffic steering
  • Passing information to segment= endpoints to support SFC
  • Passing information to the p= acket’s ultimate destination to support VPNs
  • Fas= t Reroute

 

All of these can be addressed without breaking the I= Pv6 architecture. See:

 

 

Fast reroute can be achieved with an IPv6-compliant = variation of TI-LFA. Create the repair path by encapsulating the packet in = another IPv6 header that has its own Routing header.

 

        &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;            &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;      Ron

 

 

From: ipv6 <ipv6-bounces@ietf.org> O= n Behalf Of Mark Smith
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2020 8:13 PM
To: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
Cc: James Guichard <james.n.guichard@futurewei.com>; SPRING WG= List <spring@ietf.org>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>; Robert Raszuk= <robert@raszuk.net>
Subject: Re: [spring] RFC8200 update?

 

 

On Sat, 29 Feb 2020, 06:55 Warren Kumari, <warren@kumari.net> = wrote:

On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 9:02 AM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net&= gt; wrote:
>
> > interestingly enough MPLS took the same approach
>
> Well not really. As you know, MPLS unicast and multicast have a new et= hertype.

And this is a critical distinction -- Brian Carpenter's limited domain
document (draft-carpenter-limited-domains) says:
"Domain boundaries that are defined administratively (e.g. by address<= br> filtering rules in routers) are prone to leakage caused by human
error, especially if the limited domain traffic appears otherwise
normal to the boundary routers. In this case, the network operator
needs to take active steps to protect the boundary. This form of
leakage is much less likely if nodes must be explicitly configured to
handle a given limited domain protocol, for example by installing a
specific protocol handler."

 

Using IPv6 for SR is fundamentally using the wrong t= ool for the job.

 

IPv6 is an internetworking protocol used to network = networks and to internetwork all hosts attached to all of those networks.

 

The SR problem space is typically limited to local n= etwork or sub-network, and usually only between network elements, rather th= an out to end hosts.

 

It does make sense to try to use a internetworking p= rotocol to solve a local sub-network problem when the internetworking proto= col has become commodity. The benefits of the cheapness of the commodity pr= otocol should outweigh the costs of the drawbacks and compromises that need to be made to use it.

 

However, the moment customising the commodity to bet= ter suit the problem starts is the moment the benefits of using the existin= g commodity start being lost. Customise too much and all of the benefits of= choosing a commodity in the first place disappear.

 

That's why I fundamentally think changing IPv6 to su= it SR should be avoided as much as possible.

 

Compromising SR to suit and fit within existing IPv6= would retain the benefits of using existing commodity IPv6. Customising IP= v6 to suit SR risks throwing the commodity benefits "baby out with the= bathwater", with the more radical the customising, the greater risk.

 

Regards,

Mark.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 




>
> SRv6 folks were just too nice and thought to leverage 0x86DD. I think = that was a mistake. I further think we should fix it.
>
> Cheers,
> R.
>
> On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 2:44 PM James Guichard <james.n..guichard@futurewe= i.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Sander,
>>
>> RFC8402 explicitly says in section 8 security considerations that = "by default, the explicit routing information MUST NOT be leaked throu= gh the boundaries of the administered domain". The intent therefore se= ems clear that "global internet" does not apply; interestingly enough MPLS took the same approach and has been widely deplo= yed for years.
>>
>> Respectfully,
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: spring <spring-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Sander Steffann >> Sent: Friday, February 28, 2020 8:25 AM
>> To: Wang, Weibin (NSB - CN/Shanghai) <weibin.wang@nokia-sbell.com>=
>> Cc: SPRING WG List <spring@ietf.org>; 6man WG <ipv6@ietf.org>; Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston= @liquidtelecom.com>
>> Subject: Re: [spring] RFC8200 update?
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> > In the bearer of srv6 traffic, srv6 domain is only one part o= f the whole packet journey. Because the srv6 domain is trusted by single op= erator, it is no necessary for the outer IPv6 header (for performing SRH fu= nction) to inherit all IPv6 extension headers specially designed for the initial end-to-end IPv6 communication, for exam= ple, the AH is not must for outer IPv6 header and its SRH. Therefore, the o= uter IPv6 processing of srv6 traffic can appropriately relax the restrictio= ns, that is to say, the outer IPv6 encapsulation only inherits a part of IPv6 spec.
>>
>> No. It uses IPv6 and must therefore follow the rules of IPv6. What= I propose is to update IPv6 to make this possible, but you can't break the= rules in a standard without consensus that the rules can be changed.
>>
>> > For example, it is allowed to perform functions such as PSP w= ithin SRv6 domain;  Could we treat IPv6 headers function of internal a= nd external layers differently, after all, their purposes are different. >>
>> Let's not use implicit definitions of "internal" and &qu= ot;external" layers. They don't make sense in a global protocol (and d= espite your claims that SRv6 is limited to a specific domain, it really isn= 't. It uses global IPv6 addresses and can traverse the global internet). Let's define global rules that apply to everybody instead, and = standardise this behaviour.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Sander
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> spring mailing list
>> spring@ietf.o= rg
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------


--
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
idea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair
of pants.
   ---maf

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for ; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 10:25:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x343.google.com with SMTP id v22so1240196otq.11 for ; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 10:25:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=aL5B35HMp5Qqb7IqcjS0/PwAMBHx7zcTWaYPl2Dx9Do=; b=Ca61rpxb7JhNH26Ts24Owe9i6kxMVzSR2jHaoczYKKIH5OkJlKhbh4Ro/tlaTRqrNx QOxJuO/NdJ2eAsVvARgDT3W7s1XKaCgkNMdmRQZ3mkx8FqBS0tQTi5+hPTd9YQCDTlaF RO7zzSr2UiCeM0RV2t0VO46Iwx6A7G+EFgTxYZCLZlp72YLiow06b1X6XIUdWsg9buoG 93ZiubpiXFRO3pveAQsB7PJ89KWyK9ESbGiW5HgPU+JWijYHvZAyMijp8tNm2QzItSHK WthHuHksTXCnOWhk06lSkXbZ14g11k82epWnwZLZoCltKRTP6G+DIuAWSnHsUtAn92RN jT2g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=aL5B35HMp5Qqb7IqcjS0/PwAMBHx7zcTWaYPl2Dx9Do=; 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=?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000088fdb8059fbb15f7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 18:25:58 -0000 --00000000000088fdb8059fbb15f7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi John, I respectfully will disagree with your assessment. Reason #1 - IPv6 can be encapsulated in IPv6 - RFC2473. This is base of SRv6 operation. If this would be deprecated, moved to historic or made illegal - games over. But if this is still legal then ultimate destination for a packet is what it listed in outer IPv6 header DA. That's pretty basic. Now what the destination in the header will do with the packet is completely different story. Reason #2 - "a node can=E2=80=99t be both the penultimate, and the ultimate= , node." Of course it can. You are looking flat .. If you look at different layers the same node is in fact acting in multiple roles - I can easily count 3 but with TI-LFA it could be even more. The same node is ultimate destination for the outer header in the same time The same node is penultimate destination for SR path in the same time The same node is just regular IPv6 transit from the perspective of the original non encapsulated packet Kind regards, R. On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 6:46 PM John Scudder wrote: > Robert, > > I think your comment (emphasis added): > > we are dealing here with an *encapsulated* packet which *has as its > ultimate destination* SR node X. That SR node X is to perform or not PSP. > > > Is wrong. It contradicts everything else that=E2=80=99s been said in the = hundreds > of messages that have gone before, not to mention the plain language > of draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10. The word =E2=80=9Cpenul= timate=E2=80=9D > itself is enough to prove this: by definition a node can=E2=80=99t be bot= h the > penultimate, and the ultimate, node. It=E2=80=99s a contradiction in term= s, like > saying 0 equals 1. > > Now, if node X were to remove the RH *and perform the decapsulation* that > would be a different story, but the whole point of PSP is that X removes > the RH and then sends the encapsulated packet on to Y which performs the > decapsulation. (This point was made in one of the other threads recently, > but I=E2=80=99ve lost track of by whom and which thread.) As far as I can= tell, > this non-controversial behavior is described in 4.16.3 of the draft and > referred to as =E2=80=9CUSD=E2=80=9D. > > =E2=80=94John > > On Feb 29, 2020, at 6:06 AM, Robert Raszuk wrote: > > Dear Jinmei, > > Even if RFC8200 section 4 text would say: > > "Extension headers cannot be added to a packet after it has left its > source node and extension headers cannot be removed from a packet until i= t > has arrived at its ultimate destination". > > PSP would be still not be violating anything said in this sentence. Reaso= n > being is that we are dealing here with an *encapsulated* packet which has > as its ultimate destination SR node X. That SR node X is to perform or no= t > PSP. So it is still fully compliant with the specification. > > IMHO the only grey area as pointed by Brian is if RFC8200 section 4.4 > really mandates you to look at segments_left before processing the packet > or it is equally legal to look at that value after local processing occur= s. > Definition says: > > > Segments Left 8-bit unsigned integer. Number of route > segments remaining, i.e., number of explicitly > listed intermediate nodes still to be visited > before reaching the final destination. > > > which to me really means that as long as you recognize given routing > header type you can decrement this value and if zero remove it. > > Besides that is a minor detail - as NPG draft could be updated to say: > > S14.1. If (Segments Left Before Local Decrement =3D=3D 1) { > S14.2. Update the Next Header field in the preceding header to the > Next Header value of the SRH > S14.3. Decrease the IPv6 header Payload Length by the Hdr Ext Len > value of the SRH > S14.4. Remove the SRH from the IPv6 extension header chain > S14.5. } > > > Many thx, > R. > > On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 2:28 AM =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 wrote: > >> At Fri, 28 Feb 2020 07:54:28 +0000, >> "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" > > wrote: >> >> > The design of PSP for the benefits of deployment is based on the >> understanding >> > that it does not violate section 4 of RFC8200. In case the RFC8200 tex= t >> may be >> > modified in the future, the PSP may also need to change accordingly. >> >> No, it violates Section 4 of RFC8200. It's a pity that we have to >> discuss it at this level due to the poor editorial work then (I was >> also responsible for that as one of those reviewing the bis draft), >> but anyone who involved the discussion should know the intent of this >> text intended to say (borrowing from Ron's text) "Extension headers >> cannot be added to a packet after it has left the its source node and >> extension headers cannot be removed from a packet until it has arrived >> at its ultimate destination". It might look "an attempt of blocking >> an innovation by a small group of vocal fundamentalists", but if you >> see the responses without a bias, you'd notice that even some of those >> who seem neutral about the underlying SRv6 matter interpret the text >> that way. >> >> I'd also note that simply because PSP violates RFC8200 doesn't >> immediately mean it (PSP) "needs to change". It can update RFC8200 with >> explaining why it's necessary and justified. That's what I >> requested as you summarized: >> >> > Jinmei: it should say it updates this part of RFC8200 and explain why >> it's justified. >> >> And, since PSP at least wouldn't break PMTUD, I guess the update >> proposal will have much more chance to be accepted than a proposal >> including EH insertion. On the other hand, pretending there's no >> violation will certainly trigger many appeals and objections at the >> IETF last call (I'll certainly object to it). In the end, it can >> easily take much longer, or even fail, than formally claiming an >> update to RFC8200. >> >> -- >> JINMEI, Tatuya >> >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >> >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6__;= !!NEt6yMaO-gk!Qj4iGvIKXE0YABWYjk5PNMfr1edPfPjJBED6VMnC3MxTiIYCqCc0y3X18TtwY= w$ > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > --00000000000088fdb8059fbb15f7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi John,

I respectfully will disagree w= ith your assessment.=C2=A0

Reason #1 - IPv6 can be= encapsulated in IPv6 - RFC2473. This is base of SRv6 operation. If this wo= uld be deprecated, moved to historic or made illegal - games over. But if t= his is still legal then ultimate destination for a packet is what it listed= in outer IPv6 header DA. That's pretty basic. Now what the destination= in the header will do with the packet is completely different story.=C2=A0=

Reason #2 - "a node can=E2=80=99t be both th= e penultimate, and the ultimate, node." Of course it can. You are look= ing flat .. If you look at different layers the same node is in fact acting= in multiple roles - I can easily count 3 but with TI-LFA it could be=C2=A0= even more.=C2=A0

The same node is ultimate destin= ation for the outer header=C2=A0
in the same time=C2=A0
The same node is penultimate destination for SR path
in the same= time=C2=A0
The same node is just regular IPv6 transit from the p= erspective of the original non encapsulated packet=C2=A0

Kind regards,
R.


<= br>




<= br>


On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 6:46 PM John Scudder <jgs@juniper.net> wrote:
Robert,

I think your comment (emphasis added):

we are dealing here with an *encapsulated* packet= which has as its ultimate destination SR node X. That SR node X is to perf= orm or not PSP.

Is wrong. It contradicts everything else that=E2=80=99s been said in t= he hundreds of messages that have gone before, not to mention the plain lan= guage of=C2=A0draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10. The word =E2= =80=9Cpenultimate=E2=80=9D itself is enough to prove this: by definition a node can=E2=80=99t be both the penultimate, and the ultima= te, node. It=E2=80=99s a contradiction in terms, like saying 0 equals 1.=C2= =A0

Now, if node X were to remove the RH and perform the decapsulation<= /i> that would be a different story, but the whole point of PSP is that X r= emoves the RH and then sends the encapsulated packet on to Y which performs= the decapsulation. (This point was made in one of the other threads recently, but I=E2=80=99v= e lost track of by whom and which thread.) As far as I can tell, this non-c= ontroversial behavior is described in 4.16.3 of the draft and referred to a= s =E2=80=9CUSD=E2=80=9D.

=E2=80=94John

On Feb 29, 2020, at 6:06 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

Dear Jinmei,

Even if RFC8200 section 4 text would say:=C2=A0

=C2=A0"Extension headers cannot be added to a packet after it has= left its source node and extension headers cannot be removed from a packet= until it has arrived at its ultimate destination".

PSP would be still not be violating anything said in this sentence. Re= ason being is that we are dealing here with an *encapsulated* packet which = has as its ultimate destination SR node X. That SR node X is to perform or = not PSP. So it is still fully compliant=C2=A0with the specification.=C2=A0

IMHO the only grey area as pointed by Brian is if RFC8200 section 4.4 = really mandates you to look at segments_left before processing the packet o= r it is equally legal to look at that value after local processing occurs. = Definition says:=C2=A0


      Segments Left       8-bit unsigned integer.  Number of rou=
te
                          segments remaining, i.e., number of explicitly
                          listed intermediate nodes still to be visited
                          before reaching the final destination.

which to me really means that as long as you recognize given routing h= eader type you can decrement this value and if zero remove it.=C2=A0

Besides that is a minor detail - as NPG draft could be updated to say:= =C2=A0

 S14.1.   If (Segments Left Before Local Decrement =3D=3D 1) {
 S14.2.      Update the Next Header field in the preceding header to the
                Next Header value of the SRH
 S14.3.      Decrease the IPv6 header Payload Length by the Hdr Ext Len
                value of the SRH
 S14.4.      Remove the SRH from the IPv6 extension header chain
 S14.5.   }

Many thx,
R.=C2=A0

On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 2:28 AM =E7= =A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 <jinmei@wide.ad.jp> wrote:
At Fri, 28 Feb 2020 07:54:28 +0000,
"Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" <xiejingrong@huawei.com> wrote:

> The design of PSP for the benefits of deployment is based on the under= standing
> that it does not violate section 4 of RFC8200. In case the RFC8200 tex= t may be
> modified in the future, the PSP may also need to change accordingly.
No, it violates Section 4 of RFC8200.=C2=A0 It's a pity that we have to=
discuss it at this level due to the poor editorial work then (I was
also responsible for that as one of those reviewing the bis draft),
but anyone who involved the discussion should know the intent of this
text intended to say (borrowing from Ron's text) "Extension header= s
cannot be added to a packet after it has left the its source node and
extension headers cannot be removed from a packet until it has arrived
at its ultimate destination".=C2=A0 It might look "an attempt of = blocking
an innovation by a small group of vocal fundamentalists", but if you see the responses without a bias, you'd notice that even some of those<= br> who seem neutral about the underlying SRv6 matter interpret the text
that way.

I'd also note that simply because PSP violates RFC8200 doesn't
immediately mean it (PSP) "needs to change".=C2=A0 It can update = RFC8200 with
explaining why it's necessary and justified.=C2=A0 That's what I requested as you summarized:

> Jinmei: it should say it updates this part of RFC8200 and explain why = it's justified.

And, since PSP at least wouldn't break PMTUD, I guess the update
proposal will have much more chance to be accepted than a proposal
including EH insertion.=C2=A0 On the other hand, pretending there's no<= br> violation will certainly trigger many appeals and objections at the
IETF last call (I'll certainly object to it).=C2=A0 In the end, it can<= br> easily take much longer, or even fail, than formally claiming an
update to RFC8200.

--
JINMEI, Tatuya

_______________________________________________
spring mailing list
spring@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/spring
--------------------------------------------------------------------
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
ipv6@ietf.org
Administrative Requests: https://urldefense.= com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Qj4iGvI= KXE0YABWYjk5PNMfr1edPfPjJBED6VMnC3MxTiIYCqCc0y3X18TtwYw$
--------------------------------------------------------------------

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Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 19:23:15 -0000 --_000_BB541BBF5E314B9EBACF4C75BE640A64junipernet_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SSBzZWUuIFNvIHlvdSBhcmUgc2ltcGx5IGRlbW9uc3RyYXRpbmcgdGhhdCBldmVuIHRoZSB0aWdo dGVuZWQgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgeW91IHF1b3RlZCBpcyBzdWJqZWN0IHRvIHRoZSBzYW1lIGRpZmZlcmVu Y2Ugb2YgaW50ZXJwcmV0YXRpb24gdGhhdOKAmXMgYXQgdGhlIHJvb3Qgb2YgdGhlIGNvbnRyb3Zl cnN5LiBUaGF04oCZcyBoZWxwZnVsIHRvIGtub3cuDQoNCkNsZWFybHkgKGF0IGxlYXN0IHRoaXMg aXMgY2xlYXIgdG8gbWUpIHRoZSBpbnRlbnQgb2YgdGhhdCBzZW50ZW5jZSBpcyB0aGF0IGEgc291 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(Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 19:25:41 -0000 On 01-Mar-20 07:25, Robert Raszuk wrote: > Hi John, >=20 > I respectfully will disagree with your assessment.=C2=A0 >=20 > Reason #1 - IPv6 can be encapsulated in IPv6 - RFC2473. This is base of= SRv6 operation. If this would be deprecated, moved to historic or made i= llegal - games over. But if this is still legal then ultimate destination= for a packet is what it listed in outer IPv6 header DA. That's pretty ba= sic. Now what the destination in the header will do with the packet is co= mpletely different story.=C2=A0 >=20 > Reason #2 - "a node can=E2=80=99t be both the penultimate, and the ulti= mate, node." Of course it can. You are looking flat ..=20 But I've been told by several people that this is not the use case. I bel= ieve the little diagram I sent yesterday is the use case. And the trick in the= description of PSP is what I pointed out yesterday too: deleting the header when segm= ents-left =3D=3D 0 but the destination address is not yet set to the final one: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/n46VuroVGvRurIgGNLZxFbAHvIo/= The thing is, it can be coded and I fully believe there is running code. = Also, answering your question "what harm does it do?" I think the answer objectively is "= none, unless you want to use AH". Making a packet smaller on the last hop cannot break= PMTUD. So I think the text needs to admit the trick it's playing on RFC 8200. Th= en the IETF can choose whether to let that trick pass. Brian > If you look at different layers the same node is in fact acting in mult= iple roles - I can easily count 3 but with TI-LFA it could be=C2=A0 even = more.=C2=A0 >=20 > The same node is ultimate destination for the outer header=C2=A0 > in the same time=C2=A0 > The same node is penultimate destination for SR path > in the same time=C2=A0 > The same node is just regular IPv6 transit from the perspective of the = original non encapsulated packet=C2=A0 >=20 > Kind regards, > R. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 6:46 PM John Scudder > wrote: >=20 > Robert, >=20 > I think your comment (emphasis added): >=20 >> we are dealing here with an *encapsulated* packet which _has as it= s ultimate destination_ SR node X. That SR node X is to perform or not PS= P. >=20 > Is wrong. It contradicts everything else that=E2=80=99s been said i= n the hundreds of messages that have gone before, not to mention the plai= n language of=C2=A0draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10. The wor= d =E2=80=9Cpenultimate=E2=80=9D itself is enough to prove this: by defini= tion a node can=E2=80=99t be both the penultimate, and the ultimate, node= =2E It=E2=80=99s a contradiction in terms, like saying 0 equals 1.=C2=A0 >=20 > Now, if node X were to remove the RH /and perform the decapsulation= / that would be a different story, but the whole point of PSP is that X r= emoves the RH and then sends the encapsulated packet on to Y which perfor= ms the decapsulation. (This point was made in one of the other threads re= cently, but I=E2=80=99ve lost track of by whom and which thread.) As far = as I can tell, this non-controversial behavior is described in 4.16.3 of = the draft and referred to as =E2=80=9CUSD=E2=80=9D. >=20 > =E2=80=94John >=20 >> On Feb 29, 2020, at 6:06 AM, Robert Raszuk > wrote: >> >> Dear Jinmei, >> >> Even if RFC8200 section 4 text would say:=C2=A0 >> >> =C2=A0"Extension headers cannot be added to a packet after it has = left its source node and extension headers cannot be removed from a packe= t until it has arrived at its ultimate destination". >> >> PSP would be still not be violating anything said in this sentence= =2E Reason being is that we are dealing here with an *encapsulated* packe= t which has as its ultimate destination SR node X. That SR node X is to p= erform or not PSP. So it is still fully compliant=C2=A0with the specifica= tion.=C2=A0 >> >> IMHO the only grey area as pointed by Brian is if RFC8200 section = 4.4 really mandates you to look at segments_left before processing the pa= cket or it is equally legal to look at that value after local processing = occurs. Definition says:=C2=A0 >> >> >> Segments Left 8-bit unsigned integer. Number of route= >> segments remaining, i.e., number of expl= icitly >> listed intermediate nodes still to be vi= sited >> before reaching the final destination. >> >> which to me really means that as long as you recognize given routi= ng header type you can decrement this value and if zero remove it.=C2=A0 >> >> Besides that is a minor detail - as NPG draft could be updated to = say:=C2=A0 >> >> S14.1. If (Segments Left Before Local Decrement =3D=3D 1) { >> S14.2. Update the Next Header field in the preceding header = to the >> Next Header value of the SRH >> S14.3. Decrease the IPv6 header Payload Length by the Hdr Ex= t Len >> value of the SRH >> S14.4. Remove the SRH from the IPv6 extension header chain >> S14.5. } >> >> Many thx, >> R.=C2=A0 >> >> On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 2:28 AM =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89= > wrote: >> >> At Fri, 28 Feb 2020 07:54:28 +0000, >> "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" > wrote: >> >> > The design of PSP for the benefits of deployment is based on= the understanding >> > that it does not violate section 4 of RFC8200. In case the R= FC8200 text may be >> > modified in the future, the PSP may also need to change acco= rdingly. >> >> No, it violates Section 4 of RFC8200.=C2=A0 It's a pity that w= e have to >> discuss it at this level due to the poor editorial work then (= I was >> also responsible for that as one of those reviewing the bis dr= aft), >> but anyone who involved the discussion should know the intent = of this >> text intended to say (borrowing from Ron's text) "Extension he= aders >> cannot be added to a packet after it has left the its source n= ode and >> extension headers cannot be removed from a packet until it has= arrived >> at its ultimate destination".=C2=A0 It might look "an attempt = of blocking >> an innovation by a small group of vocal fundamentalists", but = if you >> see the responses without a bias, you'd notice that even some = of those >> who seem neutral about the underlying SRv6 matter interpret th= e text >> that way. >> >> I'd also note that simply because PSP violates RFC8200 doesn't= >> immediately mean it (PSP) "needs to change".=C2=A0 It can upda= te RFC8200 with >> explaining why it's necessary and justified.=C2=A0 That's what= I >> requested as you summarized: >> >> > Jinmei: it should say it updates this part of RFC8200 and ex= plain why it's justified. >> >> And, since PSP at least wouldn't break PMTUD, I guess the upda= te >> proposal will have much more chance to be accepted than a prop= osal >> including EH insertion.=C2=A0 On the other hand, pretending th= ere's no >> violation will certainly trigger many appeals and objections a= t the >> IETF last call (I'll certainly object to it).=C2=A0 In the end= , it can >> easily take much longer, or even fail, than formally claiming = an >> update to RFC8200. >> >> -- >> JINMEI, Tatuya >> >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------= -- >> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >> ipv6@ietf.org >> Administrative Requests: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.i= etf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Qj4iGvIKXE0YABWYjk5PNMfr1ed= PfPjJBED6VMnC3MxTiIYCqCc0y3X18TtwYw$ >> ------------------------------------------------------------------= -- >=20 >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 From nobody Sat Feb 29 11:32:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43F9E3A11D2; 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Sat, 29 Feb 2020 11:57:35 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <965ff6bbf1cb4c2f8d48b7b535a0cf5b@huawei.com> <085238CD-14F6-43AE-8D58-49A20DDCBB24@juniper.net> <3c07fa08-cd93-d0ae-fc76-ac8c8ae5baa7@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3c07fa08-cd93-d0ae-fc76-ac8c8ae5baa7@gmail.com> From: Greg Mirsky Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 11:57:24 -0800 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Robert Raszuk , John Scudder , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000893054059fbc5dcc" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 19:57:41 -0000 --000000000000893054059fbc5dcc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Brian, you've said Also, answering your question "what harm does it do?" I think the answer objectively is "none, unless you want to use AH". On the other thread Ron and I have pointed that PSP does have decremental effect on the ability to perform OAM, particularly performance monitoring, and the use of the O-bit proposed in draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam is questionable. Though these may not be veied as harmful consequences of PSP but they clearly, in my opinion, are benefitial either. Regards, Greg On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 11:25 AM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > On 01-Mar-20 07:25, Robert Raszuk wrote: > > Hi John, > > > > I respectfully will disagree with your assessment. > > > > Reason #1 - IPv6 can be encapsulated in IPv6 - RFC2473. This is base of > SRv6 operation. If this would be deprecated, moved to historic or made > illegal - games over. But if this is still legal then ultimate destinatio= n > for a packet is what it listed in outer IPv6 header DA. That's pretty > basic. Now what the destination in the header will do with the packet is > completely different story. > > > > Reason #2 - "a node can=E2=80=99t be both the penultimate, and the ulti= mate, > node." Of course it can. You are looking flat .. > > But I've been told by several people that this is not the use case. I > believe > the little diagram I sent yesterday is the use case. And the trick in the > description > of PSP is what I pointed out yesterday too: deleting the header when > segments-left =3D=3D 0 > but the destination address is not yet set to the final one: > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/n46VuroVGvRurIgGNLZxFbAHvIo/ > > The thing is, it can be coded and I fully believe there is running code. > Also, answering > your question "what harm does it do?" I think the answer objectively is > "none, unless > you want to use AH". Making a packet smaller on the last hop cannot break > PMTUD. > > So I think the text needs to admit the trick it's playing on RFC 8200. > Then the IETF > can choose whether to let that trick pass. > > Brian > > > > If you look at different layers the same node is in fact acting in > multiple roles - I can easily count 3 but with TI-LFA it could be even > more. > > > > The same node is ultimate destination for the outer header > > in the same time > > The same node is penultimate destination for SR path > > in the same time > > The same node is just regular IPv6 transit from the perspective of the > original non encapsulated packet > > > > Kind regards, > > R. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 6:46 PM John Scudder jgs@juniper.net>> wrote: > > > > Robert, > > > > I think your comment (emphasis added): > > > >> we are dealing here with an *encapsulated* packet which _has as it= s > ultimate destination_ SR node X. That SR node X is to perform or not PSP. > > > > Is wrong. It contradicts everything else that=E2=80=99s been said i= n the > hundreds of messages that have gone before, not to mention the plain > language of draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10. The word > =E2=80=9Cpenultimate=E2=80=9D itself is enough to prove this: by definiti= on a node can=E2=80=99t be > both the penultimate, and the ultimate, node. It=E2=80=99s a contradictio= n in > terms, like saying 0 equals 1. > > > > Now, if node X were to remove the RH /and perform the decapsulation= / > that would be a different story, but the whole point of PSP is that X > removes the RH and then sends the encapsulated packet on to Y which > performs the decapsulation. (This point was made in one of the other > threads recently, but I=E2=80=99ve lost track of by whom and which thread= .) As far > as I can tell, this non-controversial behavior is described in 4.16.3 of > the draft and referred to as =E2=80=9CUSD=E2=80=9D. > > > > =E2=80=94John > > > >> On Feb 29, 2020, at 6:06 AM, Robert Raszuk > wrote: > >> > >> Dear Jinmei, > >> > >> Even if RFC8200 section 4 text would say: > >> > >> "Extension headers cannot be added to a packet after it has left > its source node and extension headers cannot be removed from a packet unt= il > it has arrived at its ultimate destination". > >> > >> PSP would be still not be violating anything said in this sentence= . > Reason being is that we are dealing here with an *encapsulated* packet > which has as its ultimate destination SR node X. That SR node X is to > perform or not PSP. So it is still fully compliant with the specification= . > >> > >> IMHO the only grey area as pointed by Brian is if RFC8200 section > 4.4 really mandates you to look at segments_left before processing the > packet or it is equally legal to look at that value after local processin= g > occurs. Definition says: > >> > >> > >> Segments Left 8-bit unsigned integer. Number of route > >> segments remaining, i.e., number of > explicitly > >> listed intermediate nodes still to be > visited > >> before reaching the final destination. > >> > >> which to me really means that as long as you recognize given > routing header type you can decrement this value and if zero remove it. > >> > >> Besides that is a minor detail - as NPG draft could be updated to > say: > >> > >> S14.1. If (Segments Left Before Local Decrement =3D=3D 1) { > >> S14.2. Update the Next Header field in the preceding header > to the > >> Next Header value of the SRH > >> S14.3. Decrease the IPv6 header Payload Length by the Hdr Ex= t > Len > >> value of the SRH > >> S14.4. Remove the SRH from the IPv6 extension header chain > >> S14.5. } > >> > >> Many thx, > >> R. > >> > >> On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 2:28 AM =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93= =89 jinmei@wide.ad.jp>> wrote: > >> > >> At Fri, 28 Feb 2020 07:54:28 +0000, > >> "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" xiejingrong@huawei...com>> wrote: > >> > >> > The design of PSP for the benefits of deployment is based on > the understanding > >> > that it does not violate section 4 of RFC8200. In case the > RFC8200 text may be > >> > modified in the future, the PSP may also need to change > accordingly. > >> > >> No, it violates Section 4 of RFC8200. It's a pity that we hav= e > to > >> discuss it at this level due to the poor editorial work then (= I > was > >> also responsible for that as one of those reviewing the bis > draft), > >> but anyone who involved the discussion should know the intent > of this > >> text intended to say (borrowing from Ron's text) "Extension > headers > >> cannot be added to a packet after it has left the its source > node and > >> extension headers cannot be removed from a packet until it has > arrived > >> at its ultimate destination". It might look "an attempt of > blocking > >> an innovation by a small group of vocal fundamentalists", but > if you > >> see the responses without a bias, you'd notice that even some > of those > >> who seem neutral about the underlying SRv6 matter interpret th= e > text > >> that way. > >> > >> I'd also note that simply because PSP violates RFC8200 doesn't > >> immediately mean it (PSP) "needs to change". It can update > RFC8200 with > >> explaining why it's necessary and justified. That's what I > >> requested as you summarized: > >> > >> > Jinmei: it should say it updates this part of RFC8200 and > explain why it's justified. > >> > >> And, since PSP at least wouldn't break PMTUD, I guess the upda= te > >> proposal will have much more chance to be accepted than a > proposal > >> including EH insertion. On the other hand, pretending there's > no > >> violation will certainly trigger many appeals and objections a= t > the > >> IETF last call (I'll certainly object to it). In the end, it > can > >> easily take much longer, or even fail, than formally claiming = an > >> update to RFC8200. > >> > >> -- > >> JINMEI, Tatuya > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> spring mailing list > >> spring@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring < > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring_= _;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Qj4iGvIKXE0YABWYjk5PNMfr1edPfPjJBED6VMnC3MxTiIYCqCc0y3UdazB= orQ$ > > > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------= -- > >> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > >> ipv6@ietf.org > >> Administrative Requests: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6__;= !!NEt6yMaO-gk!Qj4iGvIKXE0YABWYjk5PNMfr1edPfPjJBED6VMnC3MxTiIYCqCc0y3X18TtwY= w$ > < > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www..ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6__= ;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Qj4iGvIKXE0YABWYjk5PNMfr1edPfPjJBED6VMnC3MxTiIYCqCc0y3X18Ttw= Yw$ > > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------= -- > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > ipv6@ietf.org > > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > --000000000000893054059fbc5dcc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Brian,
you've said
=C2=A0Also, answering
your question "what harm does it do?" I think the answer objec= tively is "none, unless
you want to use AH".=C2=A0On the other thread Ron and I have pointed that PSP does have= decremental effect on the ability to perform OAM, particularly performance= monitoring, and the use of the O-bit proposed in draft-ietf-6man-spring-sr= v6-oam=C2=A0is questionable. Though these may not be veied as harmful c= onsequences=C2=A0of PSP but they clearly, in my opinion, are benefitial eit= her.

Regards,
Greg

On Sat, Feb 29, 2020= at 11:25 AM Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
On 01-Mar-20 07:25, Robert Raszuk wrote:<= br> > Hi John,
>
> I respectfully will disagree with your assessment.=C2=A0
>
> Reason #1 - IPv6 can be encapsulated in IPv6 - RFC2473. This is base o= f SRv6 operation. If this would be deprecated, moved to historic or made il= legal - games over. But if this is still legal then ultimate destination fo= r a packet is what it listed in outer IPv6 header DA. That's pretty bas= ic. Now what the destination in the header will do with the packet is compl= etely different story.=C2=A0
>
> Reason #2 - "a node can=E2=80=99t be both the penultimate, and th= e ultimate, node." Of course it can. You are looking flat ..

But I've been told by several people that this is not the use case. I b= elieve
the little diagram I sent yesterday is the use case. And the trick in the d= escription
of PSP is what I pointed out yesterday too: deleting the header when segmen= ts-left =3D=3D 0
but the destination address is not yet set to the final one:

https://mailarchive.ietf.or= g/arch/msg/spring/n46VuroVGvRurIgGNLZxFbAHvIo/

The thing is, it can be coded and I fully believe there is running code. Al= so, answering
your question "what harm does it do?" I think the answer objectiv= ely is "none, unless
you want to use AH". Making a packet smaller on the last hop cannot br= eak PMTUD.

So I think the text needs to admit the trick it's playing on RFC 8200. = Then the IETF
can choose whether to let that trick pass.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian


> If you look at different layers the same node is in fact acting in mul= tiple roles - I can easily count 3 but with TI-LFA it could be=C2=A0 even m= ore.=C2=A0
>
> The same node is ultimate destination for the outer header=C2=A0
> in the same time=C2=A0
> The same node is penultimate destination for SR path
> in the same time=C2=A0
> The same node is just regular IPv6 transit from the perspective of the= original non encapsulated packet=C2=A0
>
> Kind regards,
> R.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 6:46 PM John Scudder <jgs@juniper.net <mailto:jgs@juniper.net>> wrote:=
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Robert,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I think your comment (emphasis added):
>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0we are dealing here with an *encapsulated* pack= et which _has as its ultimate destination_ SR node X. That SR node X is to = perform or not PSP.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Is wrong. It contradicts everything else that=E2=80= =99s been said in the hundreds of messages that have gone before, not to me= ntion the plain language of=C2=A0draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming= -10. The word =E2=80=9Cpenultimate=E2=80=9D itself is enough to prove this:= by definition a node can=E2=80=99t be both the penultimate, and the ultima= te, node. It=E2=80=99s a contradiction in terms, like saying 0 equals 1.=C2= =A0
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Now, if node X were to remove the RH /and perform t= he decapsulation/ that would be a different story, but the whole point of P= SP is that X removes the RH and then sends the encapsulated packet on to Y = which performs the decapsulation. (This point was made in one of the other = threads recently, but I=E2=80=99ve lost track of by whom and which thread.)= As far as I can tell, this non-controversial behavior is described in 4.16= .3 of the draft and referred to as =E2=80=9CUSD=E2=80=9D.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=94John
>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Feb 29, 2020, at 6:06 AM, Robert Raszuk <= robert@raszuk.net <mailto:robert@= raszuk.net>> wrote:
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Dear Jinmei,
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Even if RFC8200 section 4 text would say:=C2=A0=
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0"Extension headers cannot be added t= o a packet after it has left its source node and extension headers cannot b= e removed from a packet until it has arrived at its ultimate destination&qu= ot;.
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0PSP would be still not be violating anything sa= id in this sentence. Reason being is that we are dealing here with an *enca= psulated* packet which has as its ultimate destination SR node X. That SR n= ode X is to perform or not PSP. So it is still fully compliant=C2=A0with th= e specification.=C2=A0
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IMHO the only grey area as pointed by Brian is = if RFC8200 section 4.4 really mandates you to look at segments_left before = processing the packet or it is equally legal to look at that value after lo= cal processing occurs. Definition says:=C2=A0
>>
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Segments Left=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A08-bit unsigned integer.=C2=A0 Number of route
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0segments remaining, i.e., numb= er of explicitly
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0listed intermediate nodes stil= l to be visited
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0before reaching the final dest= ination.
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0which to me really means that as long as you re= cognize given routing header type you can decrement this value and if zero = remove it.=C2=A0
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Besides that is a minor detail - as NPG draft c= ould be updated to say:=C2=A0
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 S14.1.=C2=A0 =C2=A0If (Segments Left Before Lo= cal Decrement =3D=3D 1) {
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 S14.2.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Update the Next Hea= der field in the preceding header to the
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0Next Header value of the SRH
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 S14.3.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Decrease the IPv6 h= eader Payload Length by the Hdr Ext Len
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0value of the SRH
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 S14.4.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Remove the SRH from= the IPv6 extension header chain
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 S14.5.=C2=A0 =C2=A0}
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Many thx,
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0R.=C2=A0
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 2:28 AM =E7=A5=9E=E6=98= =8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 <jinmei@wide.ad.jp <mailto:jinmei@wide.ad.jp>> wrote:
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0At Fri, 28 Feb 2020 07:54:28 +000= 0,
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"Xiejingrong (Jingrong)"= ; <xiejingro= ng@huawei.com <mailto:xiejingrong@huawei...com>> wrote:
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> The design of PSP for the be= nefits of deployment is based on the understanding
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> that it does not violate sec= tion 4 of RFC8200. In case the RFC8200 text may be
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> modified in the future, the = PSP may also need to change accordingly.
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0No, it violates Section 4 of RFC8= 200.=C2=A0 It's a pity that we have to
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0discuss it at this level due to t= he poor editorial work then (I was
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0also responsible for that as one = of those reviewing the bis draft),
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0but anyone who involved the discu= ssion should know the intent of this
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0text intended to say (borrowing f= rom Ron's text) "Extension headers
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0cannot be added to a packet after= it has left the its source node and
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0extension headers cannot be remov= ed from a packet until it has arrived
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0at its ultimate destination"= .=C2=A0 It might look "an attempt of blocking
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0an innovation by a small group of= vocal fundamentalists", but if you
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0see the responses without a bias,= you'd notice that even some of those
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0who seem neutral about the underl= ying SRv6 matter interpret the text
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that way.
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I'd also note that simply bec= ause PSP violates RFC8200 doesn't
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0immediately mean it (PSP) "n= eeds to change".=C2=A0 It can update RFC8200 with
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0explaining why it's necessary= and justified.=C2=A0 That's what I
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0requested as you summarized:
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Jinmei: it should say it upd= ates this part of RFC8200 and explain why it's justified.
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0And, since PSP at least wouldn= 9;t break PMTUD, I guess the update
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0proposal will have much more chan= ce to be accepted than a proposal
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0including EH insertion.=C2=A0 On = the other hand, pretending there's no
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0violation will certainly trigger = many appeals and objections at the
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IETF last call (I'll certainl= y object to it).=C2=A0 In the end, it can
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0easily take much longer, or even = fail, than formally claiming an
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0update to RFC8200.
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0JINMEI, Tatuya
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_________________________________= ______________
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0spring mailing list
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ie= tf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/li= stinfo/spring__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Qj4iGvIKXE0YABWYjk5PNMfr1edPfPjJBED6VMnC3MxTi= IYCqCc0y3UdazBorQ$>
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-----------------------------------------------= ---------------------
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Administrative Requests: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/ipv6__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Qj4iGvIKXE0YABWYjk5PNMfr1edPfPjJBED= 6VMnC3MxTiIYCqCc0y3X18TtwYw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www..ietf.org/mailman/list= info/ipv6__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Qj4iGvIKXE0YABWYjk5PNMfr1edPfPjJBED6VMnC3MxTiIYCq= Cc0y3X18TtwYw$>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-----------------------------------------------= ---------------------
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman= /listinfo/ipv6
> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >

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Sat, 29 Feb 2020 20:03:33 +0000 To: S Moonesamy Cc: spring@ietf.org References: <17421_1575566127_5DE93B2F_17421_93_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D1A3DA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5518_1582908787_5E594573_5518_436_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD1BCA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <9b677b7c-fe52-dbae-7f83-2b5be5194325@gont.com.ar> <6.2.5.6.2.20200228132634.1060a610@elandnews.com> From: Martin Vigoureux Message-ID: <9449c98e-b1d6-2c74-b78d-df3f5ba15ebc@nokia.com> Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 21:03:31 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.5.0 In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20200228132634.1060a610@elandnews.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ClientProxiedBy: PR0P264CA0157.FRAP264.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:100:1b::25) To DB7PR07MB4140.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:5:1::14) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-MessageSentRepresentingType: 1 Received: from [172.30.2.230] (131.228.2.20) by PR0P264CA0157.FRAP264.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:100:1b::25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2772.15 via Frontend Transport; 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X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData: NOvzbr26h5Qyc2bLEyJcIsqYuDS0GcxhggyTEUqF2erm1+/Vica2CDbiEDX+l6hXFAgcBpDGqZRQNZ/D/2rRIvL3L0JxCLpc5KKPu6wWvewbKhjC1DMWuhHi9mnVc4pxpdypoDWQ1n95CuC0xzedHA== X-OriginatorOrg: nokia.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: df8bc26a-e605-41aa-ff75-08d7bd52743d X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Feb 2020 20:03:33.3451 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: dpd6zURqx5NV/HG5uFknSvz+MxpxDrD4k7KblBUHbFfoKAjsldHXpyLtzxG9QCakFBT0dEZpc81ySuIRgAyswPnTFWYJ6jHFPw7Q+ok8RT4= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB7PR07MB4138 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 20:03:38 -0000 Dear Mr Moonesamy, I am convinced there is no conflict of interest. Since he has been WG Chair Bruno has demonstrated exemplary behaviour, on top of being a recognized expert in his field. Regarding the errata, "not processed" would have been more accurate than "not accepted" but I am sure this is what Bruno meant. Best regards, Martin Vigoureux Le 2020-02-28 à 23:02, S Moonesamy a écrit : > Dear Mr Vigoureux, > > I am contacting you as you are listed as the Responsible Area Director > for the SPRING Working Group [1].  I would like to thank the Working > Group for providing some information [2] about the status of the Working > Group Last Call. > > I was a bit surprised to see that one of the Working Group Chairs is > listed as a contributor in > draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10.  It is quite unusual to > have the contributor of a Working Group document handle the Working > Group process for the document.  Would there be a potential conflict of > interest? > > The summary provides by the Working Group Chair states that the > Responsible Area Director "has not accepted the related errata".  I took > a quick look at erratum eid5933; it is listed as "Reported".  As the > erratum has not been classified as per the relevant IESG Statement, > describing it as "not accepted" is inaccurate. > > Regards, > S. Moonesamy > > 1. https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/spring/about/ > 2. > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/or8086G4iYfee5_Icw4PnhkPLBo/ > 3. https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata/eid5933 > > From nobody Sat Feb 29 12:36:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26A663A12E8 for ; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 12:36:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SDh4z9tviblh for ; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 12:36:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot1-x344.google.com (mail-ot1-x344.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::344]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 11E3D3A12E7 for ; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 12:36:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x344.google.com with SMTP id b3so5983138otp.4 for ; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 12:36:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=uSyy7Rbirt02PKqj//bBn4s7j6AJbEbNxGkd7CJ1TVY=; b=UIX85tqv//SBnJk2xXSsKuL1zOYDIIydJVIWNYrUjfANQt2etQeSMLKiGQywwIrJa7 fYsPd5A+WkWg4zOPMJZiNk+sNKkyNOXID6lWCmVsH0KNU+mZ+eZgDAabOq0dXyAT2cHz 0kNcjfUYLkjUc2/RZ2PeQ3xnsgFDwxLVZPaYlDXJy9LhX+Oev2aAh3xzmfoMoSpyJIOy f+Jat1FXFZ0egg1YfVYEQjUrgen5c8uunTS3wBEJFDgedjGumsdey0xuENcofyLwPE+T sTclCyVxKsO4eg+UsqFMBcvBT5u4wAI19GEakJ4+sxEu3jOfjGqNezud/ywl9l+IGaE2 qs3Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=uSyy7Rbirt02PKqj//bBn4s7j6AJbEbNxGkd7CJ1TVY=; b=Fm27ZjtgedmrxkKsv0yyjigLGETeFVtyajqfkcuYmqxlBiWszAp9fPje/HV0xxqVTn BUBx5NuCFIAXvEdJTM4shmbuGdAeminusSZYsVbOaJLplJuQfp9klII8aDpDhtGg9NZ2 drptF3kqFh26PBpyoMshIw/0PNYap1PsNMdAnEajnkl9IBePRNjEw+cqW2OzKmM8agrs NQ6efqmOa/hSDTsMLy5rcTShQujvEqZv18HJSqhnRgdiokwa5x7gyhv74bCRnfQeqhiJ B2/py3cGlX25kTKI5oVzQ/AJT5IeMyfTZde5rewV8T4dYO4YuBti0jjh7dia+4x2xjwc aYHA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU+P+eAnIP51HuDr57DtfJzisA2cNAI14+u9e4KFzYxe7x8CFhU hhcY1UcRm7r/pkCHYo7G6UlFAg4rbZ1k2x6qRFSXFg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy5AQu2i87NegbIlRG5P4pGowVCo6jfzOI+dXZyJJ7OVLDkIyO02pttKJTY1CSl6c8jUCd3X2L4b6OviXWYLEE= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:6a4f:: with SMTP id h15mr7968347otn.86.1583008586134; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 12:36:26 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <965ff6bbf1cb4c2f8d48b7b535a0cf5b@huawei.com> <085238CD-14F6-43AE-8D58-49A20DDCBB24@juniper.net> <3c07fa08-cd93-d0ae-fc76-ac8c8ae5baa7@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 21:36:17 +0100 Message-ID: To: Greg Mirsky Cc: Brian E Carpenter , John Scudder , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000740524059fbce851" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 20:36:30 -0000 --000000000000740524059fbce851 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greg, You are thinking of PSP like MPLS PHP to apply to all packets towards the guy who advertised implicit-null label. That is not the case here at all. You apply PSP when you like on a per segment endpoint basis. OEM as we have all agreed will not be subject to PSP. Is there a value to keep repeating that every day :) ? Cheers, R. On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 8:57 PM Greg Mirsky wrote: > Hi Brian, > you've said > > Also, answering > your question "what harm does it do?" I think the answer objectively is > "none, unless > you want to use AH". > > On the other thread Ron and I have pointed that PSP does have decremental > effect on the ability to perform OAM, particularly performance monitoring= , > and the use of the O-bit proposed in draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam > is > questionable. Though these may not be veied as harmful consequences of PS= P > but they clearly, in my opinion, are benefitial either. > > Regards, > Greg > > On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 11:25 AM Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > >> On 01-Mar-20 07:25, Robert Raszuk wrote: >> > Hi John, >> > >> > I respectfully will disagree with your assessment. >> > >> > Reason #1 - IPv6 can be encapsulated in IPv6 - RFC2473. This is base o= f >> SRv6 operation. If this would be deprecated, moved to historic or made >> illegal - games over. But if this is still legal then ultimate destinati= on >> for a packet is what it listed in outer IPv6 header DA. That's pretty >> basic. Now what the destination in the header will do with the packet is >> completely different story. >> > >> > Reason #2 - "a node can=E2=80=99t be both the penultimate, and the ult= imate, >> node." Of course it can. You are looking flat .. >> >> But I've been told by several people that this is not the use case. I >> believe >> the little diagram I sent yesterday is the use case. And the trick in th= e >> description >> of PSP is what I pointed out yesterday too: deleting the header when >> segments-left =3D=3D 0 >> but the destination address is not yet set to the final one: >> >> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/n46VuroVGvRurIgGNLZxFbAHvIo= / >> >> The thing is, it can be coded and I fully believe there is running code. >> Also, answering >> your question "what harm does it do?" I think the answer objectively is >> "none, unless >> you want to use AH". Making a packet smaller on the last hop cannot brea= k >> PMTUD. >> >> So I think the text needs to admit the trick it's playing on RFC 8200. >> Then the IETF >> can choose whether to let that trick pass. >> >> Brian >> >> >> > If you look at different layers the same node is in fact acting in >> multiple roles - I can easily count 3 but with TI-LFA it could be even >> more. >> > >> > The same node is ultimate destination for the outer header >> > in the same time >> > The same node is penultimate destination for SR path >> > in the same time >> > The same node is just regular IPv6 transit from the perspective of the >> original non encapsulated packet >> > >> > Kind regards, >> > R. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 6:46 PM John Scudder > jgs@juniper.net>> wrote: >> > >> > Robert, >> > >> > I think your comment (emphasis added): >> > >> >> we are dealing here with an *encapsulated* packet which _has as >> its ultimate destination_ SR node X. That SR node X is to perform or not >> PSP. >> > >> > Is wrong. It contradicts everything else that=E2=80=99s been said = in the >> hundreds of messages that have gone before, not to mention the plain >> language of draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10. The word >> =E2=80=9Cpenultimate=E2=80=9D itself is enough to prove this: by definit= ion a node can=E2=80=99t be >> both the penultimate, and the ultimate, node. It=E2=80=99s a contradicti= on in >> terms, like saying 0 equals 1. >> > >> > Now, if node X were to remove the RH /and perform the >> decapsulation/ that would be a different story, but the whole point of P= SP >> is that X removes the RH and then sends the encapsulated packet on to Y >> which performs the decapsulation. (This point was made in one of the oth= er >> threads recently, but I=E2=80=99ve lost track of by whom and which threa= d.) As far >> as I can tell, this non-controversial behavior is described in 4.16.3 of >> the draft and referred to as =E2=80=9CUSD=E2=80=9D. >> > >> > =E2=80=94John >> > >> >> On Feb 29, 2020, at 6:06 AM, Robert Raszuk > > wrote: >> >> >> >> Dear Jinmei, >> >> >> >> Even if RFC8200 section 4 text would say: >> >> >> >> "Extension headers cannot be added to a packet after it has left >> its source node and extension headers cannot be removed from a packet un= til >> it has arrived at its ultimate destination". >> >> >> >> PSP would be still not be violating anything said in this >> sentence. Reason being is that we are dealing here with an *encapsulated= * >> packet which has as its ultimate destination SR node X. That SR node X i= s >> to perform or not PSP. So it is still fully compliant with the >> specification. >> >> >> >> IMHO the only grey area as pointed by Brian is if RFC8200 section >> 4.4 really mandates you to look at segments_left before processing the >> packet or it is equally legal to look at that value after local processi= ng >> occurs. Definition says: >> >> >> >> >> >> Segments Left 8-bit unsigned integer. Number of rout= e >> >> segments remaining, i.e., number of >> explicitly >> >> listed intermediate nodes still to be >> visited >> >> before reaching the final destination. >> >> >> >> which to me really means that as long as you recognize given >> routing header type you can decrement this value and if zero remove it. >> >> >> >> Besides that is a minor detail - as NPG draft could be updated to >> say: >> >> >> >> S14.1. If (Segments Left Before Local Decrement =3D=3D 1) { >> >> S14.2. Update the Next Header field in the preceding header >> to the >> >> Next Header value of the SRH >> >> S14.3. Decrease the IPv6 header Payload Length by the Hdr >> Ext Len >> >> value of the SRH >> >> S14.4. Remove the SRH from the IPv6 extension header chain >> >> S14.5. } >> >> >> >> Many thx, >> >> R. >> >> >> >> On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 2:28 AM =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93= =89 > jinmei@wide.ad.jp>> wrote: >> >> >> >> At Fri, 28 Feb 2020 07:54:28 +0000, >> >> "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" > xiejingrong@huawei...com>> wrote: >> >> >> >> > The design of PSP for the benefits of deployment is based o= n >> the understanding >> >> > that it does not violate section 4 of RFC8200. In case the >> RFC8200 text may be >> >> > modified in the future, the PSP may also need to change >> accordingly. >> >> >> >> No, it violates Section 4 of RFC8200. It's a pity that we >> have to >> >> discuss it at this level due to the poor editorial work then >> (I was >> >> also responsible for that as one of those reviewing the bis >> draft), >> >> but anyone who involved the discussion should know the intent >> of this >> >> text intended to say (borrowing from Ron's text) "Extension >> headers >> >> cannot be added to a packet after it has left the its source >> node and >> >> extension headers cannot be removed from a packet until it ha= s >> arrived >> >> at its ultimate destination". It might look "an attempt of >> blocking >> >> an innovation by a small group of vocal fundamentalists", but >> if you >> >> see the responses without a bias, you'd notice that even some >> of those >> >> who seem neutral about the underlying SRv6 matter interpret >> the text >> >> that way. >> >> >> >> I'd also note that simply because PSP violates RFC8200 doesn'= t >> >> immediately mean it (PSP) "needs to change". It can update >> RFC8200 with >> >> explaining why it's necessary and justified. That's what I >> >> requested as you summarized: >> >> >> >> > Jinmei: it should say it updates this part of RFC8200 and >> explain why it's justified. >> >> >> >> And, since PSP at least wouldn't break PMTUD, I guess the >> update >> >> proposal will have much more chance to be accepted than a >> proposal >> >> including EH insertion. On the other hand, pretending there'= s >> no >> >> violation will certainly trigger many appeals and objections >> at the >> >> IETF last call (I'll certainly object to it). In the end, it >> can >> >> easily take much longer, or even fail, than formally claiming >> an >> >> update to RFC8200. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> JINMEI, Tatuya >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> spring mailing list >> >> spring@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring < >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring= __;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Qj4iGvIKXE0YABWYjk5PNMfr1edPfPjJBED6VMnC3MxTiIYCqCc0y3Udaz= BorQ$ >> > >> >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >> >> ipv6@ietf.org >> >> Administrative Requests: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6__= ;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Qj4iGvIKXE0YABWYjk5PNMfr1edPfPjJBED6VMnC3MxTiIYCqCc0y3X18Ttw= Yw$ >> < >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www..ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6_= _;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Qj4iGvIKXE0YABWYjk5PNMfr1edPfPjJBED6VMnC3MxTiIYCqCc0y3X18Tt= wYw$ >> > >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >> > ipv6@ietf.org >> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> spring mailing list >> spring@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >> > --000000000000740524059fbce851 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greg,

You are thinking of PSP like MPLS= PHP to apply to all packets towards the guy who advertised=C2=A0implicit-n= ull label.=C2=A0

That is not the case here at all.= =C2=A0

You apply PSP when you=C2=A0like on a per s= egment endpoint basis. OEM as we have all agreed will not be subject to PSP= . Is there a value to keep repeating that every day=C2=A0:) ?=C2=A0

Cheers,
R.


<= /div>
O= n Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 8:57 PM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Brian,
you've= said
=C2=A0Also, answering
your question "what harm do= es it do?" I think the answer objectively is "none, unless
<= div>you want to use AH".=C2=A0
On the other thread R= on and I have pointed that PSP does have decremental effect on the ability = to perform OAM, particularly performance monitoring, and the use of the O-b= it proposed in draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam=C2=A0i= s questionable. Though these may not be veied as harmful consequences=C2=A0= of PSP but they clearly, in my opinion, are benefitial either.

Regards,
Greg

On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 11:25 AM Brian = E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
On 01-Mar-20 07:25, Robert Raszuk wrote: > Hi John,
>
> I respectfully will disagree with your assessment.=C2=A0
>
> Reason #1 - IPv6 can be encapsulated in IPv6 - RFC2473. This is base o= f SRv6 operation. If this would be deprecated, moved to historic or made il= legal - games over. But if this is still legal then ultimate destination fo= r a packet is what it listed in outer IPv6 header DA. That's pretty bas= ic. Now what the destination in the header will do with the packet is compl= etely different story.=C2=A0
>
> Reason #2 - "a node can=E2=80=99t be both the penultimate, and th= e ultimate, node." Of course it can. You are looking flat ..

But I've been told by several people that this is not the use case. I b= elieve
the little diagram I sent yesterday is the use case. And the trick in the d= escription
of PSP is what I pointed out yesterday too: deleting the header when segmen= ts-left =3D=3D 0
but the destination address is not yet set to the final one:

https://mailarchive.ietf.or= g/arch/msg/spring/n46VuroVGvRurIgGNLZxFbAHvIo/

The thing is, it can be coded and I fully believe there is running code. Al= so, answering
your question "what harm does it do?" I think the answer objectiv= ely is "none, unless
you want to use AH". Making a packet smaller on the last hop cannot br= eak PMTUD.

So I think the text needs to admit the trick it's playing on RFC 8200. = Then the IETF
can choose whether to let that trick pass.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian


> If you look at different layers the same node is in fact acting in mul= tiple roles - I can easily count 3 but with TI-LFA it could be=C2=A0 even m= ore.=C2=A0
>
> The same node is ultimate destination for the outer header=C2=A0
> in the same time=C2=A0
> The same node is penultimate destination for SR path
> in the same time=C2=A0
> The same node is just regular IPv6 transit from the perspective of the= original non encapsulated packet=C2=A0
>
> Kind regards,
> R.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 6:46 PM John Scudder <jgs@juniper.net <mailto:jgs@juniper.net>> wrote:=
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Robert,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I think your comment (emphasis added):
>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0we are dealing here with an *encapsulated* pack= et which _has as its ultimate destination_ SR node X. That SR node X is to = perform or not PSP.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Is wrong. It contradicts everything else that=E2=80= =99s been said in the hundreds of messages that have gone before, not to me= ntion the plain language of=C2=A0draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming= -10. The word =E2=80=9Cpenultimate=E2=80=9D itself is enough to prove this:= by definition a node can=E2=80=99t be both the penultimate, and the ultima= te, node. It=E2=80=99s a contradiction in terms, like saying 0 equals 1.=C2= =A0
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Now, if node X were to remove the RH /and perform t= he decapsulation/ that would be a different story, but the whole point of P= SP is that X removes the RH and then sends the encapsulated packet on to Y = which performs the decapsulation. (This point was made in one of the other = threads recently, but I=E2=80=99ve lost track of by whom and which thread.)= As far as I can tell, this non-controversial behavior is described in 4.16= .3 of the draft and referred to as =E2=80=9CUSD=E2=80=9D.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=94John
>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Feb 29, 2020, at 6:06 AM, Robert Raszuk <= robert@raszuk.net <mailto:robert@= raszuk.net>> wrote:
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Dear Jinmei,
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Even if RFC8200 section 4 text would say:=C2=A0=
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0"Extension headers cannot be added t= o a packet after it has left its source node and extension headers cannot b= e removed from a packet until it has arrived at its ultimate destination&qu= ot;.
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0PSP would be still not be violating anything sa= id in this sentence. Reason being is that we are dealing here with an *enca= psulated* packet which has as its ultimate destination SR node X. That SR n= ode X is to perform or not PSP. So it is still fully compliant=C2=A0with th= e specification.=C2=A0
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IMHO the only grey area as pointed by Brian is = if RFC8200 section 4.4 really mandates you to look at segments_left before = processing the packet or it is equally legal to look at that value after lo= cal processing occurs. Definition says:=C2=A0
>>
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Segments Left=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A08-bit unsigned integer.=C2=A0 Number of route
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0segments remaining, i.e., numb= er of explicitly
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0listed intermediate nodes stil= l to be visited
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0before reaching the final dest= ination.
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0which to me really means that as long as you re= cognize given routing header type you can decrement this value and if zero = remove it.=C2=A0
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Besides that is a minor detail - as NPG draft c= ould be updated to say:=C2=A0
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 S14.1.=C2=A0 =C2=A0If (Segments Left Before Lo= cal Decrement =3D=3D 1) {
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 S14.2.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Update the Next Hea= der field in the preceding header to the
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0Next Header value of the SRH
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 S14.3.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Decrease the IPv6 h= eader Payload Length by the Hdr Ext Len
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0value of the SRH
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 S14.4.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Remove the SRH from= the IPv6 extension header chain
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 S14.5.=C2=A0 =C2=A0}
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Many thx,
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0R.=C2=A0
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 2:28 AM =E7=A5=9E=E6=98= =8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 <jinmei@wide.ad.jp <mailto:jinmei@wide.ad.jp>> wrote:
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0At Fri, 28 Feb 2020 07:54:28 +000= 0,
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"Xiejingrong (Jingrong)"= ; <xiejingro= ng@huawei.com <mailto:xiejingrong@huawei...com>> wrote:
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> The design of PSP for the be= nefits of deployment is based on the understanding
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> that it does not violate sec= tion 4 of RFC8200. In case the RFC8200 text may be
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> modified in the future, the = PSP may also need to change accordingly.
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0No, it violates Section 4 of RFC8= 200.=C2=A0 It's a pity that we have to
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0discuss it at this level due to t= he poor editorial work then (I was
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0also responsible for that as one = of those reviewing the bis draft),
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0but anyone who involved the discu= ssion should know the intent of this
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0text intended to say (borrowing f= rom Ron's text) "Extension headers
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0cannot be added to a packet after= it has left the its source node and
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0extension headers cannot be remov= ed from a packet until it has arrived
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0at its ultimate destination"= .=C2=A0 It might look "an attempt of blocking
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0an innovation by a small group of= vocal fundamentalists", but if you
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0see the responses without a bias,= you'd notice that even some of those
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0who seem neutral about the underl= ying SRv6 matter interpret the text
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that way.
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I'd also note that simply bec= ause PSP violates RFC8200 doesn't
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0immediately mean it (PSP) "n= eeds to change".=C2=A0 It can update RFC8200 with
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0explaining why it's necessary= and justified.=C2=A0 That's what I
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0requested as you summarized:
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Jinmei: it should say it upd= ates this part of RFC8200 and explain why it's justified.
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0And, since PSP at least wouldn= 9;t break PMTUD, I guess the update
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0proposal will have much more chan= ce to be accepted than a proposal
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0including EH insertion.=C2=A0 On = the other hand, pretending there's no
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0violation will certainly trigger = many appeals and objections at the
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IETF last call (I'll certainl= y object to it).=C2=A0 In the end, it can
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0easily take much longer, or even = fail, than formally claiming an
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0update to RFC8200.
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0JINMEI, Tatuya
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_________________________________= ______________
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0spring mailing list
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ie= tf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/li= stinfo/spring__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Qj4iGvIKXE0YABWYjk5PNMfr1edPfPjJBED6VMnC3MxTi= IYCqCc0y3UdazBorQ$>
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-----------------------------------------------= ---------------------
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Administrative Requests: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/ipv6__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Qj4iGvIKXE0YABWYjk5PNMfr1edPfPjJBED= 6VMnC3MxTiIYCqCc0y3X18TtwYw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www..ietf.org/mailman/list= info/ipv6__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Qj4iGvIKXE0YABWYjk5PNMfr1edPfPjJBED6VMnC3MxTiIYCq= Cc0y3X18TtwYw$>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-----------------------------------------------= ---------------------
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman= /listinfo/ipv6
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--000000000000740524059fbce851-- From nobody Sat Feb 29 12:46:56 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94C853A1313; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 12:46:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iUmCTEsALeLO; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 12:46:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x142.google.com (mail-lf1-x142.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::142]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 84A133A1310; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 12:46:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x142.google.com with SMTP id 7so4689274lfz.11; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 12:46:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6Lysyq9UGuaFWmQCgjWw9LBFdmWmFI3vx6kTtUA4dlo=; b=g5XBDkuEUTSncdrrl8eGxomtRu60Tv0ceJEfNFxM5OBBkaWjtGuEHWHeK2wSx0asof OeoPsEbdVOOC0VneNwN6nc4jmxieCTxlk3DTZxNUlA1sTiWVfFUSqqZlgb90Y7CpmCi3 oPY0omJoUTbsCHe3RihYnT4wi6jV+maCaMWYgLVbp46UjHg1N3tFFgALh0bN3BooXkXZ kZF/g/VaZQ0N1b7IgbLEW9HkmW8Z7G4NPqyj45OvuoRkLL4i7Ygk74nYm/QllzU7rSog Zca1uxx5TmYQWekK882LKUSl9m4dXEfzSwOIVk/8tO5KXnDW4d0wCGRSBsELUgnZXcO5 r88Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6Lysyq9UGuaFWmQCgjWw9LBFdmWmFI3vx6kTtUA4dlo=; b=S5BlhUk4qjDLDdDsQ77wH7dYqCi+NL5Oz/QhKhDyzZggNHtibE4Wt162sR4hN+1Snd pcVtSBEakaweBHhQGTwqt8sTfrf6di1UkNDrTd4bjoBqm7je5nooj1WvoAAVtfI4i2WI 3q2ZxdNnD9pXzojNf0VaePrBiGsbqtxIcRUaNKScONPqj4aiTrs237moQ4wRFvUSt67c 9R+U12ycpiJc4rZr3wYZnbY5tMIZaYFcbwZgx5N0oJ/9em5P2njGEd/8GzzxQJR2KEUi UANYczO9ufb0qSzEqXl3U2lDvV+ddCjy5INWXjQ6O6S2lEvQkn+bsTsL4SDjJlJQVJgX XX5Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ1LwjMHTwT89NzOCCc0aCwlmCZfX9vYyYuuNPtLobjjB8CxZEug m0PXSs/xJQLcgiyvIU4jaGHZjbJWuKUtL8KE2Uw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vsYE8Wpr724aGkHeUXkGGCYyGFwKWGNU0aaj7DgMYzzmvkYXbDYPjtKq2oD+zcFwqxl5mAHJ5KfA0sHc6fB2OY= X-Received: by 2002:a19:97:: with SMTP id 145mr5778060lfa.98.1583009198696; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 12:46:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <965ff6bbf1cb4c2f8d48b7b535a0cf5b@huawei.com> <085238CD-14F6-43AE-8D58-49A20DDCBB24@juniper.net> <3c07fa08-cd93-d0ae-fc76-ac8c8ae5baa7@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Greg Mirsky Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 12:46:27 -0800 Message-ID: To: Robert Raszuk Cc: Brian E Carpenter , John Scudder , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f6f2ed059fbd0c1f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 20:46:44 -0000 --000000000000f6f2ed059fbd0c1f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Robert, s/OEM/OAM/ ;) True, active OAM should not generate excessive number of test packets and that might make selective non-use of PSP on these packets acceptable. But some have made a use case for PSP by describing environment where the ultimate tunnel endpoint is not capable to process SRH. If that is the practical case, then how SRv6 OAM will work at all? Regards, Greg On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 12:36 PM Robert Raszuk wrote: > Greg, > > You are thinking of PSP like MPLS PHP to apply to all packets towards the > guy who advertised implicit-null label. > > That is not the case here at all. > > You apply PSP when you like on a per segment endpoint basis. OEM as we > have all agreed will not be subject to PSP. Is there a value to keep > repeating that every day :) ? > > Cheers, > R. > > > > On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 8:57 PM Greg Mirsky wrote= : > >> Hi Brian, >> you've said >> >> Also, answering >> your question "what harm does it do?" I think the answer objectively is >> "none, unless >> you want to use AH". >> >> On the other thread Ron and I have pointed that PSP does have decrementa= l >> effect on the ability to perform OAM, particularly performance monitorin= g, >> and the use of the O-bit proposed in draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam >> is >> questionable. Though these may not be veied as harmful consequences of P= SP >> but they clearly, in my opinion, are benefitial either. >> >> Regards, >> Greg >> >> On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 11:25 AM Brian E Carpenter < >> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> On 01-Mar-20 07:25, Robert Raszuk wrote: >>> > Hi John, >>> > >>> > I respectfully will disagree with your assessment. >>> > >>> > Reason #1 - IPv6 can be encapsulated in IPv6 - RFC2473. This is base >>> of SRv6 operation. If this would be deprecated, moved to historic or ma= de >>> illegal - games over. But if this is still legal then ultimate destinat= ion >>> for a packet is what it listed in outer IPv6 header DA. That's pretty >>> basic. Now what the destination in the header will do with the packet i= s >>> completely different story. >>> > >>> > Reason #2 - "a node can=E2=80=99t be both the penultimate, and the ul= timate, >>> node." Of course it can. You are looking flat .. >>> >>> But I've been told by several people that this is not the use case. I >>> believe >>> the little diagram I sent yesterday is the use case. And the trick in >>> the description >>> of PSP is what I pointed out yesterday too: deleting the header when >>> segments-left =3D=3D 0 >>> but the destination address is not yet set to the final one: >>> >>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/n46VuroVGvRurIgGNLZxFbAHvI= o/ >>> >>> The thing is, it can be coded and I fully believe there is running code= . >>> Also, answering >>> your question "what harm does it do?" I think the answer objectively is >>> "none, unless >>> you want to use AH". Making a packet smaller on the last hop cannot >>> break PMTUD. >>> >>> So I think the text needs to admit the trick it's playing on RFC 8200. >>> Then the IETF >>> can choose whether to let that trick pass. >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> >>> > If you look at different layers the same node is in fact acting in >>> multiple roles - I can easily count 3 but with TI-LFA it could be even >>> more. >>> > >>> > The same node is ultimate destination for the outer header >>> > in the same time >>> > The same node is penultimate destination for SR path >>> > in the same time >>> > The same node is just regular IPv6 transit from the perspective of th= e >>> original non encapsulated packet >>> > >>> > Kind regards, >>> > R. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 6:46 PM John Scudder >> jgs@juniper.net>> wrote: >>> > >>> > Robert, >>> > >>> > I think your comment (emphasis added): >>> > >>> >> we are dealing here with an *encapsulated* packet which _has as >>> its ultimate destination_ SR node X. That SR node X is to perform or no= t >>> PSP. >>> > >>> > Is wrong. It contradicts everything else that=E2=80=99s been said= in the >>> hundreds of messages that have gone before, not to mention the plain >>> language of draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10. The word >>> =E2=80=9Cpenultimate=E2=80=9D itself is enough to prove this: by defini= tion a node can=E2=80=99t be >>> both the penultimate, and the ultimate, node. It=E2=80=99s a contradict= ion in >>> terms, like saying 0 equals 1. >>> > >>> > Now, if node X were to remove the RH /and perform the >>> decapsulation/ that would be a different story, but the whole point of = PSP >>> is that X removes the RH and then sends the encapsulated packet on to Y >>> which performs the decapsulation. (This point was made in one of the ot= her >>> threads recently, but I=E2=80=99ve lost track of by whom and which thre= ad.) As far >>> as I can tell, this non-controversial behavior is described in 4.16.3 o= f >>> the draft and referred to as =E2=80=9CUSD=E2=80=9D. >>> > >>> > =E2=80=94John >>> > >>> >> On Feb 29, 2020, at 6:06 AM, Robert Raszuk >> > wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Dear Jinmei, >>> >> >>> >> Even if RFC8200 section 4 text would say: >>> >> >>> >> "Extension headers cannot be added to a packet after it has lef= t >>> its source node and extension headers cannot be removed from a packet u= ntil >>> it has arrived at its ultimate destination". >>> >> >>> >> PSP would be still not be violating anything said in this >>> sentence. Reason being is that we are dealing here with an *encapsulate= d* >>> packet which has as its ultimate destination SR node X. That SR node X = is >>> to perform or not PSP. So it is still fully compliant with the >>> specification. >>> >> >>> >> IMHO the only grey area as pointed by Brian is if RFC8200 sectio= n >>> 4.4 really mandates you to look at segments_left before processing the >>> packet or it is equally legal to look at that value after local process= ing >>> occurs. Definition says: >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Segments Left 8-bit unsigned integer. Number of rou= te >>> >> segments remaining, i.e., number of >>> explicitly >>> >> listed intermediate nodes still to be >>> visited >>> >> before reaching the final destination. >>> >> >>> >> which to me really means that as long as you recognize given >>> routing header type you can decrement this value and if zero remove it. >>> >> >>> >> Besides that is a minor detail - as NPG draft could be updated t= o >>> say: >>> >> >>> >> S14.1. If (Segments Left Before Local Decrement =3D=3D 1) { >>> >> S14.2. Update the Next Header field in the preceding heade= r >>> to the >>> >> Next Header value of the SRH >>> >> S14.3. Decrease the IPv6 header Payload Length by the Hdr >>> Ext Len >>> >> value of the SRH >>> >> S14.4. Remove the SRH from the IPv6 extension header chain >>> >> S14.5. } >>> >> >>> >> Many thx, >>> >> R. >>> >> >>> >> On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 2:28 AM =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5= =93=89 >> jinmei@wide.ad.jp>> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> At Fri, 28 Feb 2020 07:54:28 +0000, >>> >> "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" >> xiejingrong@huawei...com>> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> > The design of PSP for the benefits of deployment is based >>> on the understanding >>> >> > that it does not violate section 4 of RFC8200. In case the >>> RFC8200 text may be >>> >> > modified in the future, the PSP may also need to change >>> accordingly. >>> >> >>> >> No, it violates Section 4 of RFC8200. It's a pity that we >>> have to >>> >> discuss it at this level due to the poor editorial work then >>> (I was >>> >> also responsible for that as one of those reviewing the bis >>> draft), >>> >> but anyone who involved the discussion should know the inten= t >>> of this >>> >> text intended to say (borrowing from Ron's text) "Extension >>> headers >>> >> cannot be added to a packet after it has left the its source >>> node and >>> >> extension headers cannot be removed from a packet until it >>> has arrived >>> >> at its ultimate destination". It might look "an attempt of >>> blocking >>> >> an innovation by a small group of vocal fundamentalists", bu= t >>> if you >>> >> see the responses without a bias, you'd notice that even som= e >>> of those >>> >> who seem neutral about the underlying SRv6 matter interpret >>> the text >>> >> that way. >>> >> >>> >> I'd also note that simply because PSP violates RFC8200 doesn= 't >>> >> immediately mean it (PSP) "needs to change". It can update >>> RFC8200 with >>> >> explaining why it's necessary and justified. That's what I >>> >> requested as you summarized: >>> >> >>> >> > Jinmei: it should say it updates this part of RFC8200 and >>> explain why it's justified. >>> >> >>> >> And, since PSP at least wouldn't break PMTUD, I guess the >>> update >>> >> proposal will have much more chance to be accepted than a >>> proposal >>> >> including EH insertion. On the other hand, pretending >>> there's no >>> >> violation will certainly trigger many appeals and objections >>> at the >>> >> IETF last call (I'll certainly object to it). In the end, i= t >>> can >>> >> easily take much longer, or even fail, than formally claimin= g >>> an >>> >> update to RFC8200. >>> >> >>> >> -- >>> >> JINMEI, Tatuya >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> spring mailing list >>> >> spring@ietf.org >>> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring < >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sprin= g__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Qj4iGvIKXE0YABWYjk5PNMfr1edPfPjJBED6VMnC3MxTiIYCqCc0y3Uda= zBorQ$ >>> > >>> >> >>> >> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>> >> ipv6@ietf.org >>> >> Administrative Requests: >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6_= _;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Qj4iGvIKXE0YABWYjk5PNMfr1edPfPjJBED6VMnC3MxTiIYCqCc0y3X18Tt= wYw$ >>> < >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www..ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6= __;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Qj4iGvIKXE0YABWYjk5PNMfr1edPfPjJBED6VMnC3MxTiIYCqCc0y3X18T= twYw$ >>> > >>> >> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> > >>> > >>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >>> > ipv6@ietf.org >>> > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> > >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> spring mailing list >>> spring@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >>> >> --000000000000f6f2ed059fbd0c1f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Robert,
s/OEM/OAM/ ;)
True, active OAM sh= ould not generate excessive number of test packets and that might make sele= ctive non-use of PSP on these packets acceptable. But some have made a use = case for PSP by describing environment where the ultimate tunnel endpoint i= s not capable to process SRH. If that is the practical case, then how SRv6 = OAM will work at all?

Regards,
Greg

On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 12:36 PM Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:
Greg,

= You are thinking of PSP like MPLS PHP to apply to all packets towards the g= uy who advertised=C2=A0implicit-null label.=C2=A0

= That is not the case here at all.=C2=A0

You apply = PSP when you=C2=A0like on a per segment endpoint basis. OEM as we have all = agreed will not be subject to PSP. Is there a value to keep repeating that = every day=C2=A0:) ?=C2=A0

Cheers,
R.



On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 8:57 PM Greg Mirsky= <gregimirsky= @gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Brian,
you've said
=C2=A0Also, = answering
your question "what harm does it do?" I think= the answer objectively is "none, unless
you want to use AH&= quot;.=C2=A0
On the other thread Ron and I have pointed t= hat PSP does have decremental effect on the ability to perform OAM, particu= larly performance monitoring, and the use of the O-bit proposed in draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam=C2=A0is questionable. Thoug= h these may not be veied as harmful consequences=C2=A0of PSP but they clear= ly, in my opinion, are benefitial either.

Regards,
=
Greg

On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 11:25 AM Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpen= ter@gmail.com> wrote:
On 01-Mar-20 07:25, Robert Raszuk wrote:
> Hi John,
>
> I respectfully will disagree with your assessment.=C2=A0
>
> Reason #1 - IPv6 can be encapsulated in IPv6 - RFC2473. This is base o= f SRv6 operation. If this would be deprecated, moved to historic or made il= legal - games over. But if this is still legal then ultimate destination fo= r a packet is what it listed in outer IPv6 header DA. That's pretty bas= ic. Now what the destination in the header will do with the packet is compl= etely different story.=C2=A0
>
> Reason #2 - "a node can=E2=80=99t be both the penultimate, and th= e ultimate, node." Of course it can. You are looking flat ..

But I've been told by several people that this is not the use case. I b= elieve
the little diagram I sent yesterday is the use case. And the trick in the d= escription
of PSP is what I pointed out yesterday too: deleting the header when segmen= ts-left =3D=3D 0
but the destination address is not yet set to the final one:

https://mailarchive.ietf.or= g/arch/msg/spring/n46VuroVGvRurIgGNLZxFbAHvIo/

The thing is, it can be coded and I fully believe there is running code. Al= so, answering
your question "what harm does it do?" I think the answer objectiv= ely is "none, unless
you want to use AH". Making a packet smaller on the last hop cannot br= eak PMTUD.

So I think the text needs to admit the trick it's playing on RFC 8200. = Then the IETF
can choose whether to let that trick pass.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Brian


> If you look at different layers the same node is in fact acting in mul= tiple roles - I can easily count 3 but with TI-LFA it could be=C2=A0 even m= ore.=C2=A0
>
> The same node is ultimate destination for the outer header=C2=A0
> in the same time=C2=A0
> The same node is penultimate destination for SR path
> in the same time=C2=A0
> The same node is just regular IPv6 transit from the perspective of the= original non encapsulated packet=C2=A0
>
> Kind regards,
> R.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 6:46 PM John Scudder <jgs@juniper.net <mailto:jgs@juniper.net>> wrote:=
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Robert,
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I think your comment (emphasis added):
>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0we are dealing here with an *encapsulated* pack= et which _has as its ultimate destination_ SR node X. That SR node X is to = perform or not PSP.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Is wrong. It contradicts everything else that=E2=80= =99s been said in the hundreds of messages that have gone before, not to me= ntion the plain language of=C2=A0draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming= -10. The word =E2=80=9Cpenultimate=E2=80=9D itself is enough to prove this:= by definition a node can=E2=80=99t be both the penultimate, and the ultima= te, node. It=E2=80=99s a contradiction in terms, like saying 0 equals 1.=C2= =A0
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Now, if node X were to remove the RH /and perform t= he decapsulation/ that would be a different story, but the whole point of P= SP is that X removes the RH and then sends the encapsulated packet on to Y = which performs the decapsulation. (This point was made in one of the other = threads recently, but I=E2=80=99ve lost track of by whom and which thread.)= As far as I can tell, this non-controversial behavior is described in 4.16= .3 of the draft and referred to as =E2=80=9CUSD=E2=80=9D.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=94John
>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Feb 29, 2020, at 6:06 AM, Robert Raszuk <= robert@raszuk.net <mailto:robert@= raszuk.net>> wrote:
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Dear Jinmei,
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Even if RFC8200 section 4 text would say:=C2=A0=
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0"Extension headers cannot be added t= o a packet after it has left its source node and extension headers cannot b= e removed from a packet until it has arrived at its ultimate destination&qu= ot;.
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0PSP would be still not be violating anything sa= id in this sentence. Reason being is that we are dealing here with an *enca= psulated* packet which has as its ultimate destination SR node X. That SR n= ode X is to perform or not PSP. So it is still fully compliant=C2=A0with th= e specification.=C2=A0
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IMHO the only grey area as pointed by Brian is = if RFC8200 section 4.4 really mandates you to look at segments_left before = processing the packet or it is equally legal to look at that value after lo= cal processing occurs. Definition says:=C2=A0
>>
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Segments Left=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A08-bit unsigned integer.=C2=A0 Number of route
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0segments remaining, i.e., numb= er of explicitly
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0listed intermediate nodes stil= l to be visited
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0before reaching the final dest= ination.
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0which to me really means that as long as you re= cognize given routing header type you can decrement this value and if zero = remove it.=C2=A0
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Besides that is a minor detail - as NPG draft c= ould be updated to say:=C2=A0
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 S14.1.=C2=A0 =C2=A0If (Segments Left Before Lo= cal Decrement =3D=3D 1) {
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 S14.2.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Update the Next Hea= der field in the preceding header to the
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0Next Header value of the SRH
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 S14.3.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Decrease the IPv6 h= eader Payload Length by the Hdr Ext Len
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0value of the SRH
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 S14.4.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Remove the SRH from= the IPv6 extension header chain
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 S14.5.=C2=A0 =C2=A0}
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Many thx,
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0R.=C2=A0
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 2:28 AM =E7=A5=9E=E6=98= =8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 <jinmei@wide.ad.jp <mailto:jinmei@wide.ad.jp>> wrote:
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0At Fri, 28 Feb 2020 07:54:28 +000= 0,
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"Xiejingrong (Jingrong)"= ; <xiejingro= ng@huawei.com <mailto:xiejingrong@huawei...com>> wrote:
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> The design of PSP for the be= nefits of deployment is based on the understanding
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> that it does not violate sec= tion 4 of RFC8200. In case the RFC8200 text may be
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> modified in the future, the = PSP may also need to change accordingly.
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0No, it violates Section 4 of RFC8= 200.=C2=A0 It's a pity that we have to
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0discuss it at this level due to t= he poor editorial work then (I was
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0also responsible for that as one = of those reviewing the bis draft),
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0but anyone who involved the discu= ssion should know the intent of this
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0text intended to say (borrowing f= rom Ron's text) "Extension headers
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0cannot be added to a packet after= it has left the its source node and
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0extension headers cannot be remov= ed from a packet until it has arrived
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0at its ultimate destination"= .=C2=A0 It might look "an attempt of blocking
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0an innovation by a small group of= vocal fundamentalists", but if you
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0see the responses without a bias,= you'd notice that even some of those
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0who seem neutral about the underl= ying SRv6 matter interpret the text
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that way.
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I'd also note that simply bec= ause PSP violates RFC8200 doesn't
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0immediately mean it (PSP) "n= eeds to change".=C2=A0 It can update RFC8200 with
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0explaining why it's necessary= and justified.=C2=A0 That's what I
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0requested as you summarized:
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Jinmei: it should say it upd= ates this part of RFC8200 and explain why it's justified.
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0And, since PSP at least wouldn= 9;t break PMTUD, I guess the update
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0proposal will have much more chan= ce to be accepted than a proposal
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0including EH insertion.=C2=A0 On = the other hand, pretending there's no
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0violation will certainly trigger = many appeals and objections at the
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IETF last call (I'll certainl= y object to it).=C2=A0 In the end, it can
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0easily take much longer, or even = fail, than formally claiming an
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0update to RFC8200.
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0JINMEI, Tatuya
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_________________________________= ______________
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0spring mailing list
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ie= tf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/li= stinfo/spring__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Qj4iGvIKXE0YABWYjk5PNMfr1edPfPjJBED6VMnC3MxTi= IYCqCc0y3UdazBorQ$>
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-----------------------------------------------= ---------------------
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ipv6@ietf.org <mailto:ipv6@ietf.org>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Administrative Requests: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/ipv6__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Qj4iGvIKXE0YABWYjk5PNMfr1edPfPjJBED= 6VMnC3MxTiIYCqCc0y3X18TtwYw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www..ietf.org/mailman/list= info/ipv6__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Qj4iGvIKXE0YABWYjk5PNMfr1edPfPjJBED6VMnC3MxTiIYCq= Cc0y3X18TtwYw$>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-----------------------------------------------= ---------------------
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman= /listinfo/ipv6
> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >

_______________________________________________
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--000000000000f6f2ed059fbd0c1f-- From nobody Sat Feb 29 12:55:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5A663A133A for ; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 12:55:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=raszuk.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xUGlsRqdDoc3 for ; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 12:55:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x244.google.com (mail-oi1-x244.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 14A443A133B for ; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 12:55:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x244.google.com with SMTP id b18so6544809oie.2 for ; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 12:55:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=raszuk.net; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=xp2rC1+gnXhDFdRGBRw4yw5rlNUNutpRBno8FNWkooI=; b=AJa+OLX5Zpa+HvgkAOdGSGtEN1rX1x9oTGIG9S6zcOZIFS4Ed4nDrK+tLHjQkrjPbX KaJ/0zgK8zR1KJtYnkzL+byfexuTFFKH4LNks1cGz/rs2XfJhjvxc3SLw63fDyEsYtSH TvFsHACdExdW4aA+or5BfPeC5jd+k2EuklybusOMo9XU5fD0o9wK5g4lUdRUj+rU/pd8 EM4aUgYhLO/Xe0Nc78X5m6Wft9odM1PIDXRTuWyIbOpj0RpmO/Bc1BSPaWh6hK0B1+dL 4KxLM2R/uzFgngTy3yCm+KpqsBRWCyy6x013KxFbMpx6wOqCQWkFvitQ1tFBrVUq/UXF +N/w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=xp2rC1+gnXhDFdRGBRw4yw5rlNUNutpRBno8FNWkooI=; b=FyBLQXqM2iJgpWp9CI0hshROBqtv/TwimHqHmDbBQB13lOrb5CEUE2jrFGPulpYqHc 4YxtHvGqWW6kUWiW16TmuBt7sfdQf+CQU9qbI+rl9yxhypQfD5FeMXcQQGuRa4TIqXhV uPFcyg8W2OxUQBdQl7TejGRdwuQ+fJ7aDNIfgtFOWSzMVR0hDGDpAv+IrVYA9/adIN/K VMlT1GHKcR/0JTL1ClJk0Nv7VX/HiykK/ldySIi6k3SZtE4+0hK1Y7Nsg9XWTvWDCAVA cOpCxQDfdsO1GiNq6jk9kT4p3JfdKUSJg/SaQcZiWXY5Y6CGLWEfyUTaeUGOvN1y3zEb +0+A== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXW85dShnGnO4gUJq5fCTQkPKVj3pU7ia1at+NKeig7PF0tg/3r hoLYtd3WleUOkobqQ+21RkZ6qxdZY29PcBT7lGzS7A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzpMC+QCIhLQum9/+gcnKDqB2P0y1O0ZdBwqPL7t+wQsHB5Pm6snRHJCIbbJmibd0AnkwKZ8+D9XwubUkWgjmQ= X-Received: by 2002:aca:d985:: with SMTP id q127mr6795515oig.132.1583009735251; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 12:55:35 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <965ff6bbf1cb4c2f8d48b7b535a0cf5b@huawei.com> <085238CD-14F6-43AE-8D58-49A20DDCBB24@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: From: Robert Raszuk Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 21:55:26 +0100 Message-ID: To: John Scudder Cc: =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= , "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f263ae059fbd2ca9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 20:55:39 -0000 --000000000000f263ae059fbd2ca9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John, So for some packet's final destination is the one located in the most inner header of the packet. The one applied by the sender's socket. For you apparently the final destination is the one encoded in the SRH (or end of src route) - honestly I have not seen such definition in any IETF document except in the proposed errata stating that SL=3D=3D0 to consider destination an final destination. /* So if RH is removed before we would never reach final destination per current errata */ My reading of RFC8200 leads me to believe that final destination is each destination node where DA from packet's header matches the address of one of its local interfaces. It is also the ultimate/final destination for specific segment as to reach it packet could have traversed many non SR capable nodes. As Dirk mentioned SR path can be represented by set of autonomous segments each doing complete decasulation and new encapsulation of the packet based on the SRH content. If so there is no violation of anything. /* And in this mode at least SR nodes could be PLRs for TI-LFA without the need for yet one more encapsulation */. Robert. On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 8:23 PM John Scudder wrote: > I see. So you are simply demonstrating that even the tightened language > you quoted is subject to the same difference of interpretation that=E2=80= =99s at > the root of the controversy. That=E2=80=99s helpful to know. > > Clearly (at least this is clear to me) the intent of that sentence is tha= t > a source-routed packet cannot be said to have reached its ultimate > destination until it has reached the target of the source route, the poin= t > at which the source route has been fully consumed. I think (?) you'll agr= ee > that isn't the interpretation you've chosen, you=E2=80=99ve chosen to int= erpret > =E2=80=9Cultimate destination=E2=80=9D as meaning =E2=80=9Cthe destinatio= n depicted in the outer > IPv6 header," regardless of where the packet is along the source route. > Right? So, status quo ante. (I think I could defend my reading as being > objectively correct based on nothing more than the words as written, but > that=E2=80=99s beside the point =E2=80=94 once we get to the stage of spe= c-lawyering, we > have all lost.) > > I suppose the choice here remains as it always has been: accept that > natural language can often be interpreted differently by different reader= s > (especially those motivated to reach different interpretations) and leave > it at that, resolving such differences when they arise through IETF > process; or work to craft ever more precise language, accepting the > consequence that we have to do extra work and our specs become more > unwieldy as a result. In this particular case, I guess an excruciatingly > precise definition of =E2=80=9Cultimate destination=E2=80=9D may be the k= ey to resolving > ambiguity. > > =E2=80=94John > > On Feb 29, 2020, at 1:25 PM, Robert Raszuk wrote: > > Hi John, > > I respectfully will disagree with your assessment. > > Reason #1 - IPv6 can be encapsulated in IPv6 - RFC2473. This is base of > SRv6 operation. If this would be deprecated, moved to historic or made > illegal - games over. But if this is still legal then ultimate destinatio= n > for a packet is what it listed in outer IPv6 header DA. That's pretty > basic. Now what the destination in the header will do with the packet is > completely different story. > > Reason #2 - "a node can=E2=80=99t be both the penultimate, and the ultima= te, > node." Of course it can. You are looking flat .. If you look at different > layers the same node is in fact acting in multiple roles - I can easily > count 3 but with TI-LFA it could be even more. > > The same node is ultimate destination for the outer header > in the same time > The same node is penultimate destination for SR path > in the same time > The same node is just regular IPv6 transit from the perspective of the > original non encapsulated packet > > Kind regards, > R. > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 6:46 PM John Scudder wrote: > >> Robert, >> >> I think your comment (emphasis added): >> >> we are dealing here with an *encapsulated* packet which *has as its >> ultimate destination* SR node X. That SR node X is to perform or not PSP= . >> >> >> Is wrong. It contradicts everything else that=E2=80=99s been said in the= hundreds >> of messages that have gone before, not to mention the plain language >> of draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10. The word =E2=80=9Cpenu= ltimate=E2=80=9D >> itself is enough to prove this: by definition a node can=E2=80=99t be bo= th the >> penultimate, and the ultimate, node. It=E2=80=99s a contradiction in ter= ms, like >> saying 0 equals 1. >> >> Now, if node X were to remove the RH *and perform the decapsulation* >> that would be a different story, but the whole point of PSP is that X >> removes the RH and then sends the encapsulated packet on to Y which >> performs the decapsulation. (This point was made in one of the other >> threads recently, but I=E2=80=99ve lost track of by whom and which threa= d.) As far >> as I can tell, this non-controversial behavior is described in 4.16.3 of >> the draft and referred to as =E2=80=9CUSD=E2=80=9D. >> >> =E2=80=94John >> >> On Feb 29, 2020, at 6:06 AM, Robert Raszuk wrote: >> >> Dear Jinmei, >> >> Even if RFC8200 section 4 text would say: >> >> "Extension headers cannot be added to a packet after it has left its >> source node and extension headers cannot be removed from a packet until = it >> has arrived at its ultimate destination". >> >> PSP would be still not be violating anything said in this sentence. >> Reason being is that we are dealing here with an *encapsulated* packet >> which has as its ultimate destination SR node X. That SR node X is to >> perform or not PSP. So it is still fully compliant with the specificatio= n. >> >> IMHO the only grey area as pointed by Brian is if RFC8200 section 4.4 >> really mandates you to look at segments_left before processing the packe= t >> or it is equally legal to look at that value after local processing occu= rs. >> Definition says: >> >> >> Segments Left 8-bit unsigned integer. Number of route >> segments remaining, i.e., number of explicitly >> listed intermediate nodes still to be visited >> before reaching the final destination. >> >> >> which to me really means that as long as you recognize given routing >> header type you can decrement this value and if zero remove it. >> >> Besides that is a minor detail - as NPG draft could be updated to say: >> >> S14.1. If (Segments Left Before Local Decrement =3D=3D 1) { >> S14.2. Update the Next Header field in the preceding header to the >> Next Header value of the SRH >> S14.3. Decrease the IPv6 header Payload Length by the Hdr Ext Len >> value of the SRH >> S14.4. Remove the SRH from the IPv6 extension header chain >> S14.5. } >> >> >> Many thx, >> R. >> >> On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 2:28 AM =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 wrote: >> >>> At Fri, 28 Feb 2020 07:54:28 +0000, >>> "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" >> > wrote: >>> >>> > The design of PSP for the benefits of deployment is based on the >>> understanding >>> > that it does not violate section 4 of RFC8200. In case the RFC8200 >>> text may be >>> > modified in the future, the PSP may also need to change accordingly. >>> >>> No, it violates Section 4 of RFC8200. It's a pity that we have to >>> discuss it at this level due to the poor editorial work then (I was >>> also responsible for that as one of those reviewing the bis draft), >>> but anyone who involved the discussion should know the intent of this >>> text intended to say (borrowing from Ron's text) "Extension headers >>> cannot be added to a packet after it has left the its source node and >>> extension headers cannot be removed from a packet until it has arrived >>> at its ultimate destination". It might look "an attempt of blocking >>> an innovation by a small group of vocal fundamentalists", but if you >>> see the responses without a bias, you'd notice that even some of those >>> who seem neutral about the underlying SRv6 matter interpret the text >>> that way. >>> >>> I'd also note that simply because PSP violates RFC8200 doesn't >>> immediately mean it (PSP) "needs to change". It can update RFC8200 wit= h >>> explaining why it's necessary and justified. That's what I >>> requested as you summarized: >>> >>> > Jinmei: it should say it updates this part of RFC8200 and explain why >>> it's justified. >>> >>> And, since PSP at least wouldn't break PMTUD, I guess the update >>> proposal will have much more chance to be accepted than a proposal >>> including EH insertion. On the other hand, pretending there's no >>> violation will certainly trigger many appeals and objections at the >>> IETF last call (I'll certainly object to it). In the end, it can >>> easily take much longer, or even fail, than formally claiming an >>> update to RFC8200. >>> >>> -- >>> JINMEI, Tatuya >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> spring mailing list >>> spring@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring >>> >>> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >> ipv6@ietf.org >> Administrative Requests: >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6__= ;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Qj4iGvIKXE0YABWYjk5PNMfr1edPfPjJBED6VMnC3MxTiIYCqCc0y3X18Ttw= Yw$ >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> > --000000000000f263ae059fbd2ca9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
John,

So for some packet's final de= stination is the one located in the most inner header of the packet. The on= e applied by the sender's socket.=C2=A0

For yo= u apparently the final destination is the one encoded in the SRH (or end of= src route) - honestly I have not seen such definition in any IETF document= except in the proposed errata stating that SL=3D=3D0 to consider destinati= on an final=C2=A0destination. /* So if RH is removed before we would never = reach final destination per current errata */

My r= eading of RFC8200 leads me to believe that final=C2=A0destination is each d= estination node where DA from packet's header matches the address of on= e of its local interfaces. It is also the ultimate/final destination=C2=A0f= or specific segment as to reach it packet could have traversed many non SR = capable nodes. As Dirk mentioned SR path can be represented by set of auton= omous segments each doing complete decasulation and new encapsulation=C2=A0= of the packet based on the SRH content. If so there is no violation of anyt= hing. /* And in this mode at least SR nodes could be PLRs for TI-LFA withou= t the need for yet one more encapsulation */.=C2=A0

Robert.

On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 8:23 PM John Scudder <jgs@juniper.net> wrote:
I see. So you are simply demonstrating that even the tightened language you= quoted is subject to the same difference of interpretation that=E2=80=99s = at the root of the controversy. That=E2=80=99s helpful to know.

Clearly (at least this is clear to me) the intent of that sentence is = that a source-routed packet cannot be said to have reached its ultimate des= tination until it has reached the target of the source route, the point at = which the source route has been fully consumed. I think (?) you'll agree that isn't the i= nterpretation you've chosen, you=E2=80=99ve chosen to interpret =E2=80= =9Cultimate destination=E2=80=9D as meaning =E2=80=9Cthe destination depict= ed in the outer IPv6 header," regardless of where the packet is along = the source route. Right? So, status quo ante. (I think I could defend my reading as b= eing objectively correct based on nothing more than the words as written, b= ut that=E2=80=99s beside the point =E2=80=94 once we get to the stage of sp= ec-lawyering, we have all lost.)

I suppose the choice here remains as it always has been: accept that n= atural language can often be interpreted differently by different readers (= especially those motivated to reach different interpretations) and leave it= at that, resolving such differences when they arise through IETF process; or work to craft ever mo= re precise language, accepting the consequence that we have to do extra wor= k and our specs become more unwieldy as a result. In this particular case, = I guess an excruciatingly precise definition of =E2=80=9Cultimate destination=E2=80=9D may be the key to res= olving ambiguity.

=E2=80=94John

On Feb 29, 2020, at 1:25 PM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

Hi John,

I respectfully will disagree with your assessment.=C2=A0

Reason #1 - IPv6 can be encapsulated in IPv6 - RFC2473. This is base o= f SRv6 operation. If this would be deprecated, moved to historic or made il= legal - games over. But if this is still legal then ultimate destination fo= r a packet is what it listed in outer IPv6 header DA. That's pretty basic. Now what the destination= in the header will do with the packet is completely different story.=C2=A0=

Reason #2 - "a node can=E2=80=99t be both the penultimate, and th= e ultimate, node." Of course it can. You are looking flat .. If you lo= ok at different layers the same node is in fact acting in multiple roles - = I can easily count 3 but with TI-LFA it could be=C2=A0 even more.=C2=A0

The same node is ultimate destination for the outer header=C2=A0
in the same time=C2=A0
The same node is penultimate destination for SR path
in the same time=C2=A0
The same node is just regular IPv6 transit from the perspective of the= original non encapsulated packet=C2=A0

Kind regards,
R.










On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 6:46 PM John = Scudder <jgs@junipe= r.net> wrote:
Robert,

I think your comment (emphasis added):

we are dealing here with an *encapsulated* packet= which has as its ultimate destination SR node X. That SR node X is to perf= orm or not PSP.

Is wrong. It contradicts everything else that=E2=80=99s been said in t= he hundreds of messages that have gone before, not to mention the plain lan= guage of=C2=A0draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10. The word =E2= =80=9Cpenultimate=E2=80=9D itself is enough to prove this: by definition a node can=E2=80=99t be both the penultimate, and the ultima= te, node. It=E2=80=99s a contradiction in terms, like saying 0 equals 1.=C2= =A0

Now, if node X were to remove the RH and perform the decapsulation<= /i> that would be a different story, but the whole point of PSP is that X r= emoves the RH and then sends the encapsulated packet on to Y which performs= the decapsulation. (This point was made in one of the other threads recently, but I=E2=80=99v= e lost track of by whom and which thread.) As far as I can tell, this non-c= ontroversial behavior is described in 4.16.3 of the draft and referred to a= s =E2=80=9CUSD=E2=80=9D.

=E2=80=94John

On Feb 29, 2020, at 6:06 AM, Robert Raszuk <robert@raszuk.net> wrote:

Dear Jinmei,

Even if RFC8200 section 4 text would say:=C2=A0

=C2=A0"Extension headers cannot be added to a packet after it has= left its source node and extension headers cannot be removed from a packet= until it has arrived at its ultimate destination".

PSP would be still not be violating anything said in this sentence. Re= ason being is that we are dealing here with an *encapsulated* packet which = has as its ultimate destination SR node X. That SR node X is to perform or = not PSP. So it is still fully compliant=C2=A0with the specification.=C2=A0

IMHO the only grey area as pointed by Brian is if RFC8200 section 4.4 = really mandates you to look at segments_left before processing the packet o= r it is equally legal to look at that value after local processing occurs. = Definition says:=C2=A0


      Segments Left       8-bit unsigned integer.  Number of rou=
te
                          segments remaining, i.e., number of explicitly
                          listed intermediate nodes still to be visited
                          before reaching the final destination.

which to me really means that as long as you recognize given routing h= eader type you can decrement this value and if zero remove it.=C2=A0

Besides that is a minor detail - as NPG draft could be updated to say:= =C2=A0

 S14.1.   If (Segments Left Before Local Decrement =3D=3D 1) {
 S14.2.      Update the Next Header field in the preceding header to the
                Next Header value of the SRH
 S14.3.      Decrease the IPv6 header Payload Length by the Hdr Ext Len
                value of the SRH
 S14.4.      Remove the SRH from the IPv6 extension header chain
 S14.5.   }

Many thx,
R.=C2=A0

On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 2:28 AM =E7= =A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 <jinmei@wide.ad.jp> wrote:
At Fri, 28 Feb 2020 07:54:28 +0000,
"Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" <xiejingrong@huawei.com> wrote:

> The design of PSP for the benefits of deployment is based on the under= standing
> that it does not violate section 4 of RFC8200. In case the RFC8200 tex= t may be
> modified in the future, the PSP may also need to change accordingly.
No, it violates Section 4 of RFC8200.=C2=A0 It's a pity that we have to=
discuss it at this level due to the poor editorial work then (I was
also responsible for that as one of those reviewing the bis draft),
but anyone who involved the discussion should know the intent of this
text intended to say (borrowing from Ron's text) "Extension header= s
cannot be added to a packet after it has left the its source node and
extension headers cannot be removed from a packet until it has arrived
at its ultimate destination".=C2=A0 It might look "an attempt of = blocking
an innovation by a small group of vocal fundamentalists", but if you see the responses without a bias, you'd notice that even some of those<= br> who seem neutral about the underlying SRv6 matter interpret the text
that way.

I'd also note that simply because PSP violates RFC8200 doesn't
immediately mean it (PSP) "needs to change".=C2=A0 It can update = RFC8200 with
explaining why it's necessary and justified.=C2=A0 That's what I requested as you summarized:

> Jinmei: it should say it updates this part of RFC8200 and explain why = it's justified.

And, since PSP at least wouldn't break PMTUD, I guess the update
proposal will have much more chance to be accepted than a proposal
including EH insertion.=C2=A0 On the other hand, pretending there's no<= br> violation will certainly trigger many appeals and objections at the
IETF last call (I'll certainly object to it).=C2=A0 In the end, it can<= br> easily take much longer, or even fail, than formally claiming an
update to RFC8200.

--
JINMEI, Tatuya

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X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXzxicj4NCnNwcmluZyBt YWlsaW5nIGxpc3Q8YnI+DQo8YSBocmVmPSJtYWlsdG86c3ByaW5nQGlldGYub3JnIiB0YXJnZXQ9 Il9ibGFuayI+c3ByaW5nQGlldGYub3JnPC9hPjxicj4NCjxhIGhyZWY9Imh0dHBzOi8vd3d3Lmll dGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vc3ByaW5nIiB0YXJnZXQ9Il9ibGFuayI+aHR0cHM6Ly93 d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9zcHJpbmc8L2E+PG86cD48L286cD48L3A+DQo8 L2Jsb2NrcXVvdGU+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvYmxvY2txdW90ZT4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9ibG9ja3F1b3Rl Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvYm9keT4NCjwvaHRtbD4NCg== --_000_81D11863522B45F28C3AA64D58D97E76ciscocom_-- From nobody Sat Feb 29 17:16:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56DD43A1771 for ; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 17:16:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.612 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.612 tagged_above=-999 required=5 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from DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca ([fe80::75af:23bf:bdc5:ef10]) by DG1MBX04-WYN.bell.corp.bce.ca ([fe80::75af:23bf:bdc5:ef10%22]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.003; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 20:16:13 -0500 From: "Voyer, Daniel" To: S Moonesamy , Martin Vigoureux CC: "spring@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [EXT]Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Index: AdWrjZKMyJw/FcG0Qj29O28HuDn7+xCyRBPgABDr24AAAMT+gAAD0ygAAC6TKoA= Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 01:16:13 +0000 Message-ID: References: <17421_1575566127_5DE93B2F_17421_93_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D1A3DA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5518_1582908787_5E594573_5518_436_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD1BCA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <9b677b7c-fe52-dbae-7f83-2b5be5194325@gont.com.ar> <6.2.5.6.2.20200228132634.1060a610@elandnews.com> In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20200228132634.1060a610@elandnews.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.22.0.200209 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.24.25.3] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2020 01:16:28 -0000 SGksDQoNClBsZWFzZSBub3RlIHRoYXQgQnJ1bm8gaGFzIGFscmVhZHkgY2xhcmlmaWVkIHRoYXQg 4oCcUm9iIHdhcyBub3QgYXZhaWxhYmxlIHRvIHRha2UgdGhhdCByb2xl4oCdLiANCkFzIOKAnEJy dW5vJ3MgaW50ZWdyaXR5IGlzIHdlbGwga25vd27igJ0sIHRoaXMgZW1haWwgc2hvdWxkIGJlIGNv bnNpZGVyZWQgYXMgYSBtb290IHBvaW50Lg0KDQpUaGFua3MNCkRhbg0KDQrvu79PbiAyMDIwLTAy 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L2xpc3RpbmZvL3NwcmluZw0KICAgIC0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLQ0KICAgIEV4dGVybmFs IEVtYWlsOiBQbGVhc2UgdXNlIGNhdXRpb24gd2hlbiBvcGVuaW5nIGxpbmtzIGFuZCBhdHRhY2ht ZW50cyAvIENvdXJyaWVsIGV4dGVybmU6IFNveWV6IHBydWRlbnQgYXZlYyBsZXMgbGllbnMgZXQg ZG9jdW1lbnRzIGpvaW50cw0KICAgIA0KICAgIA0KDQo= From nobody Sat Feb 29 18:03:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E81AF3A17B7 for ; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 18:03:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t4J91TPPOZIS for ; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 18:03:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 836203A17B4 for ; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 18:03:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.10] (unknown [181.45.84.85]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F2A0C83224; Sun, 1 Mar 2020 02:54:23 +0100 (CET) To: Martin Vigoureux , S Moonesamy Cc: spring@ietf.org References: <17421_1575566127_5DE93B2F_17421_93_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D1A3DA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5518_1582908787_5E594573_5518_436_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD1BCA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <9b677b7c-fe52-dbae-7f83-2b5be5194325@gont.com.ar> <6.2.5.6.2.20200228132634.1060a610@elandnews.com> <9449c98e-b1d6-2c74-b78d-df3f5ba15ebc@nokia.com> From: Fernando Gont Message-ID: <747f5271-8665-bf48-caa3-2b5dd1b2a43f@gont.com.ar> Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 22:54:00 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9449c98e-b1d6-2c74-b78d-df3f5ba15ebc@nokia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2020 02:03:53 -0000 On 29/2/20 17:03, Martin Vigoureux wrote: > Dear Mr Moonesamy, > > I am convinced there is no conflict of interest. "conflict of interest" (https://www.lexico.com/definition/conflict_of_interest) noun a situation in which the concerns or aims of two different parties are incompatible. a situation in which a person is in a position to derive personal benefit from actions or decisions made in their official capacity. There is, indeed, a conflict of interest when the same person that has to judge consensus on a document is an author/contributor of that document. Note: flagging a "conflict of interest" is not an accusation of actually behaving dishotestly in the presence of such conflict of interest. > Regarding the errata, "not processed" would have been more accurate than > "not accepted" but I am sure this is what Bruno meant. The concerns of this document violating RFC8200 were dismissed by stating that the AD had not accepted the erratum I had submitted. Clearly, if Bruno had meant "not processed", he couldn't have dismissed the erratum like that. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From nobody Sat Feb 29 19:11:58 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CABCC3A18B0; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 19:11:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.798 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.798 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zm_GkOYTCwAh; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 19:11:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from cnshjsmin03.nokia-sbell.com (cnshjsmin03.app.nokia-sbell.com [116.246.26.71]) (using 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Weibin (NSB - CN/Shanghai)" To: John Scudder , Robert Raszuk CC: "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, =?utf-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= Thread-Topic: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming Thread-Index: AQHV7p+DXMHaJXakU0mW4yXf0jmQv6gxfSuAgABv3ACAAArrgIAAEAeAgAAZzgCAAA6GgIAA3n9g Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 03:11:38 +0000 Message-ID: <995238762d214578ba3da4a79dbca6c9@nokia-sbell.com> References: <965ff6bbf1cb4c2f8d48b7b535a0cf5b@huawei.com> <085238CD-14F6-43AE-8D58-49A20DDCBB24@juniper.net> <40396035-12B4-4A58-9842-78547EBFF4FC@juniper.net> In-Reply-To: <40396035-12B4-4A58-9842-78547EBFF4FC@juniper.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.251.51.115] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_995238762d214578ba3da4a79dbca6c9nokiasbellcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: 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draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2020 03:11:50 -0000 --_000_995238762d214578ba3da4a79dbca6c9nokiasbellcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RnJvbSB0aGUgZGVzdGluYXRpb24gYWRkcmVzcyBvZiB0aGUgaW5pdGlhbCBJUHY2IGRhdGEgcGFj a2V0IHZpZXdwb2ludCwgYWxsIGVuZHBvaW50cyAoc2VnbWVudHMpIGluIFNSSCBhc3NvY2lhdGVk IHRoZSBvdXRlciBJUHY2IGhlYWRlciBhcmUgaW50ZXJtZWRpYXRlIG5vZGVzIHRvIGJlIHZpc2l0 ZWQsIGluY2x1ZGluZyBlbmRwb2ludCBpZGVudGlmaWVkIGJ5IFNMPTAuIHNvIGl0IGlzIG1lYW5p bmdsZXNzIHRvIGVudGFuZ2xlIGluIHRoZSBvdXRlciBwYWNrZXQgU1JIIHdoaWNoIHNlZ21lbnQg YmVsb25ncyB0byB0aGUgdWx0aW1hdGUgZGVzdGluYXRpb24gYWRkcmVzcyBvZiB0aGUgb3V0ZXIg SVB2NiBwYWNrZXQ7IEkgdGhpbmsgdGhlIHJvbGVzIG9mIGFsbCBzZWdtZW50cyBpbiB0aGUgU1JI 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amavisd-new at a2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.128.43] (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 48VW6N47wJz6G9pS; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 20:50:04 -0800 (PST) To: Robert Raszuk Cc: "spring@ietf.org" , "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= References: <965ff6bbf1cb4c2f8d48b7b535a0cf5b@huawei.com> <085238CD-14F6-43AE-8D58-49A20DDCBB24@juniper.net> <3c07fa08-cd93-d0ae-fc76-ac8c8ae5baa7@gmail.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 23:50:00 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] Suggest some text //RE: Request to close the LC and move forward//RE: WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2020 04:50:08 -0000 Presuming that by "OEM" you mean "OAM", then no, this does not work. If the OAM is intended to monitor a path that has a last SID whose flavor is PSP, then something will break. The monitoring will monitor something else, or it won't monitor the last hop, or... Given the point that was made that ignoring a source route (SRH or otherwise) with segments-left = 0 is a mandatory behavior of 8200, I am really left puzzled as to what use case justifies the contortion of PSP. Yours, Joel On 2/29/2020 3:36 PM, Robert Raszuk wrote: > Greg, > > You are thinking of PSP like MPLS PHP to apply to all packets towards > the guy who advertised implicit-null label. > > That is not the case here at all. > > You apply PSP when you like on a per segment endpoint basis. OEM as we > have all agreed will not be subject to PSP.. Is there a value to keep > repeating that every day :) ? > > Cheers, > R. > > > > On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 8:57 PM Greg Mirsky > wrote: > > Hi Brian, > you've said > >  Also, answering > your question "what harm does it do?" I think the answer > objectively is "none, unless > you want to use AH". > > On the other thread Ron and I have pointed that PSP does have > decremental effect on the ability to perform OAM, particularly > performance monitoring, and the use of the O-bit proposed in > draft-ietf-6man-spring-srv6-oam > is > questionable. Though these may not be veied as harmful > consequences of PSP but they clearly, in my opinion, are benefitial > either. > > Regards, > Greg > > On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 11:25 AM Brian E Carpenter > > > wrote: > > On 01-Mar-20 07:25, Robert Raszuk wrote: > > Hi John, > > > > I respectfully will disagree with your assessment. > > > > Reason #1 - IPv6 can be encapsulated in IPv6 - RFC2473. This > is base of SRv6 operation. If this would be deprecated, moved to > historic or made illegal - games over. But if this is still > legal then ultimate destination for a packet is what it listed > in outer IPv6 header DA. That's pretty basic. Now what the > destination in the header will do with the packet is completely > different story. > > > > Reason #2 - "a node can’t be both the penultimate, and the > ultimate, node." Of course it can. You are looking flat .. > > But I've been told by several people that this is not the use > case. I believe > the little diagram I sent yesterday is the use case. And the > trick in the description > of PSP is what I pointed out yesterday too: deleting the header > when segments-left == 0 > but the destination address is not yet set to the final one: > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/n46VuroVGvRurIgGNLZxFbAHvIo/ > > The thing is, it can be coded and I fully believe there is > running code. Also, answering > your question "what harm does it do?" I think the answer > objectively is "none, unless > you want to use AH". Making a packet smaller on the last hop > cannot break PMTUD. > > So I think the text needs to admit the trick it's playing on RFC > 8200. Then the IETF > can choose whether to let that trick pass. > >    Brian > > > > If you look at different layers the same node is in fact > acting in multiple roles - I can easily count 3 but with TI-LFA > it could be  even more. > > > > The same node is ultimate destination for the outer header > > in the same time > > The same node is penultimate destination for SR path > > in the same time > > The same node is just regular IPv6 transit from the > perspective of the original non encapsulated packet > > > > Kind regards, > > R. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 6:46 PM John Scudder >> wrote: > > > >     Robert, > > > >     I think your comment (emphasis added): > > > >>     we are dealing here with an *encapsulated* packet which > _has as its ultimate destination_ SR node X. That SR node X is > to perform or not PSP. > > > >     Is wrong. It contradicts everything else that’s been said > in the hundreds of messages that have gone before, not to > mention the plain language > of draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-10. The word > “penultimate†itself is enough to prove this: by definition a > node can’t be both the penultimate, and the ultimate, node. It’s > a contradiction in terms, like saying 0 equals 1. > > > >     Now, if node X were to remove the RH /and perform the > decapsulation/ that would be a different story, but the whole > point of PSP is that X removes the RH and then sends the > encapsulated packet on to Y which performs the decapsulation. > (This point was made in one of the other threads recently, but > I’ve lost track of by whom and which thread.) As far as I can > tell, this non-controversial behavior is described in 4.16..3 of > the draft and referred to as “USDâ€. > > > >     —John > > > >>     On Feb 29, 2020, at 6:06 AM, Robert Raszuk > > >> wrote: > >> > >>     Dear Jinmei, > >> > >>     Even if RFC8200 section 4 text would say: > >> > >>      "Extension headers cannot be added to a packet after it > has left its source node and extension headers cannot be removed > from a packet until it has arrived at its ultimate destination". > >> > >>     PSP would be still not be violating anything said in > this sentence. Reason being is that we are dealing here with an > *encapsulated* packet which has as its ultimate destination SR > node X. That SR node X is to perform or not PSP. So it is still > fully compliant with the specification. > >> > >>     IMHO the only grey area as pointed by Brian is if > RFC8200 section 4.4 really mandates you to look at segments_left > before processing the packet or it is equally legal to look at > that value after local processing occurs. Definition says: > >> > >> > >>           Segments Left       8-bit unsigned integer. > Number of route > >>                               segments remaining, i.e., > number of explicitly > >>                               listed intermediate nodes > still to be visited > >>                               before reaching the final > destination. > >> > >>     which to me really means that as long as you recognize > given routing header type you can decrement this value and if > zero remove it. > >> > >>     Besides that is a minor detail - as NPG draft could be > updated to say: > >> > >>      S14.1.   If (Segments Left Before Local Decrement == 1) { > >>      S14.2.      Update the Next Header field in the > preceding header to the > >>                     Next Header value of the SRH > >>      S14.3.      Decrease the IPv6 header Payload Length by > the Hdr Ext Len > >>                     value of the SRH > >>      S14.4.      Remove the SRH from the IPv6 extension > header chain > >>      S14.5.   } > >> > >>     Many thx, > >>     R. > >> > >>     On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 2:28 AM 神明é”哉 > > >> wrote: > >> > >>         At Fri, 28 Feb 2020 07:54:28 +0000, > >>         "Xiejingrong (Jingrong)" ..com>> wrote: > >> > >>         > The design of PSP for the benefits of deployment > is based on the understanding > >>         > that it does not violate section 4 of RFC8200. In > case the RFC8200 text may be > >>         > modified in the future, the PSP may also need to > change accordingly. > >> > >>         No, it violates Section 4 of RFC8200.  It's a pity > that we have to > >>         discuss it at this level due to the poor editorial > work then (I was > >>         also responsible for that as one of those reviewing > the bis draft), > >>         but anyone who involved the discussion should know > the intent of this > >>         text intended to say (borrowing from Ron's text) > "Extension headers > >>         cannot be added to a packet after it has left the > its source node and > >>         extension headers cannot be removed from a packet > until it has arrived > >>         at its ultimate destination"..  It might look "an > attempt of blocking > >>         an innovation by a small group of vocal > fundamentalists", but if you > >>         see the responses without a bias, you'd notice that > even some of those > >>         who seem neutral about the underlying SRv6 matter > interpret the text > >>         that way. > >> > >>         I'd also note that simply because PSP violates > RFC8200 doesn't > >>         immediately mean it (PSP) "needs to change".  It can > update RFC8200 with > >>         explaining why it's necessary and justified.  That's > what I > >>         requested as you summarized: > >> > >>         > Jinmei: it should say it updates this part of > RFC8200 and explain why it's justified. > >> > >>         And, since PSP at least wouldn't break PMTUD, I > guess the update > >>         proposal will have much more chance to be accepted > than a proposal > >>         including EH insertion.  On the other hand, > pretending there's no > >>         violation will certainly trigger many appeals and > objections at the > >>         IETF last call (I'll certainly object to it).  In > the end, it can > >>         easily take much longer, or even fail, than formally > claiming an > >>         update to RFC8200. > >> > >>         -- > >>         JINMEI, Tatuya > >> > >>         _______________________________________________ > >>         spring mailing list > >> spring@ietf.org > > > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > >> > >> >  -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>     IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > >> ipv6@ietf.org > > >>     Administrative Requests: > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6__;!!NEt6yMaO-gk!Qj4iGvIKXE0YABWYjk5PNMfr1edPfPjJBED6VMnC3MxTiIYCqCc0y3X18TtwYw$ > > >> >  -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > > ipv6@ietf.org > > Administrative Requests: > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > _______________________________________________ > spring mailing list > spring@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > From nobody Sat Feb 29 23:33:28 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: spring@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74BB43A09C5; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 23:33:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.799 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) 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(amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=elandsys.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2BkYkOasog4E for ; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 23:50:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.elandsys.com (mx.elandsys.com [162.213.2.210]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFA6E3A09AF for ; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 23:50:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from DESKTOP-K6V9C2L.elandsys.com ([102.116.118.2]) (authenticated bits=0) by mx.elandsys.com (8.15.2/8.14.5) with ESMTPSA id 0217oGCE000879 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 29 Feb 2020 23:50:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=elandsys.com; s=mail; t=1583049028; x=1583135428; i=@elandsys.com; bh=EKwxwchYoGvT0z8X4H9aFeHUltsgT0jZi6Jeump8pqk=; h=Date:To:From:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=wRKCRoWbXZsZlfg7H6EMXGuh23911KRJSnbDUIJV+L0Fn5R1NaTbbQ3p5UFm9exss NcxVd/ml1iWHdIuHw6Pi6onS7U1qAzR1qTBmI/AWZFS5veeBesYesekswsNjrIX7hH 6CAieX4u2xPBN4VSNNokUnfiuoX6DEpW/1W4EPnk= Message-Id: <6.2.5.6.2.20200229223634.093850f0@elandnews.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.2.5.6 Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 23:26:45 -0800 To: Martin Vigoureux , spring@ietf.org From: S Moonesamy In-Reply-To: <9449c98e-b1d6-2c74-b78d-df3f5ba15ebc@nokia.com> References: <17421_1575566127_5DE93B2F_17421_93_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48D1A3DA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5518_1582908787_5E594573_5518_436_1_53C29892C857584299CBF5D05346208A48DD1BCA@OPEXCAUBM43.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <9b677b7c-fe52-dbae-7f83-2b5be5194325@gont.com.ar> <6.2.5.6.2.20200228132634.1060a610@elandnews.com> <9449c98e-b1d6-2c74-b78d-df3f5ba15ebc@nokia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming X-BeenThere: spring@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Source Packet Routing in NetworkinG \(SPRING\)" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2020 07:50:35 -0000 Dear Mr Vigoureux, At 12:03 PM 29-02-2020, Martin Vigoureux wrote: >I am convinced there is no conflict of interest. I would like to thank you for the timely response to my question. Mr Decraene, who is listed as a SPRING Working Group Chair stated [1] the following: "Even though I have zero specific write/modification privilege on the text in this document, and I'm not part of the authors email alias, this would not be ideal for me to take the decision to forward this document to the IESG." I assume that it would be fair to say that the Working Group Chair was straightforward in informing the SPRING Working Group that the situation is less than ideal. The difference between "conflict of interest" and "potential conflict of interest" is sometimes lost, especially when there is an ill-disposed discussion. Those discussions can be unpleasant when there is a perception of bias or other interests at stake. One of the principles of natural justice is that one cannot be judge and party in a case. In the matter under discussion, Mr Decraene is the Working Group Chair taking the decision(s) on draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming and listed as a Contributor of draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming. Based on that, I unfortunately have to disagree with your assessment on whether there would be a potential conflict of interest. Regards, S. Moonesamy 1. https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/or8086G4iYfee5_Icw4PnhkPLBo/