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From: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@jdrosen.net>
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2018 02:14:44 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/stir/fqzK3LuRU1M5lyD2_PotZX6H6go>
Subject: [stir] New draft draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00
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Hey all - been a while :)

Cullen and I wrote up a concept for using STIR with self-signed or domain
based certs, and then handling number validation with an in-band callback.
We think its a promising approach to accelerate STIR deployments, since it
allows them to happen without the cert infrastructure being in place.

https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00.txt

Comments welcome.

-Jonathan R.

-- 
Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D.
jdrosen@jdrosen.net
http://www.jdrosen.net

--001a113d2bd832a4020566648a05
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>Hey all - been a while :)<br><br></div>Cull=
en and I wrote up a concept for using STIR with self-signed or domain based=
 certs, and then handling number validation with an in-band callback. We th=
ink its a promising approach to accelerate STIR deployments, since it allow=
s them to happen without the cert infrastructure being in place. <br><br><a=
 href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00.txt">http=
s://www.ietf.org/id/draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00.txt</a><br><br></div>C=
omments welcome. <br><br></div>-Jonathan R.<br clear=3D"all"><div><div><div=
><div><br>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr">Jonathan R=
osenberg, Ph.D.<br><a href=3D"mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net" target=3D"_blank"=
>jdrosen@jdrosen.net</a><br><a href=3D"http://www.jdrosen.net" target=3D"_b=
lank">http://www.jdrosen.net</a></div></div>
</div></div></div></div></div>

--001a113d2bd832a4020566648a05--


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From: "Peterson, Jon" <jon.peterson@team.neustar>
To: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@jdrosen.net>, "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [stir] New draft draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00
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Subject: Re: [stir] New draft draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00
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--_000_D6BEC6D81F70D3jonpetersonneustarbiz_
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Well nice of you to join us here, finally!

So broadly, we have long needed some kind of proof-of-possession test for c=
alling party numbers to help expedite STIR deployment. We've sketched out v=
arious approaches like doing that with SMS return-routability tests (see se=
ction 4.2 of draft-ietf-acme-telephone, say), and having a SIP-level way to=
 do such a test definitely seems like a valid approach. I don't recall that=
 we've considered a kind of "callback on first use" (COFU?) approach to thi=
s before. It has some good properties.

I guess the one comment I'd make about the overall direction though is that=
 up until now, I've been envisioning staging these proof-of-possession test=
s within ACME. In other words, propping up a boulder implementation that wo=
uld challenge with some kind of routability test to establish effective pro=
of of control of a number in order to get you an 8226 individual-TN cert. P=
ractically speaking, that ACME challenge could use stir-callback pretty muc=
h as your draft describes it. I don't think deploying an ACME CA to do this=
 faces anything like the practical hurdles that faced public ENUM, say. It'=
s something anyone could do tomorrow (if the necessary elements supported s=
tir-callback tomorrow).

I suppose, speaking to the example in the stir-callback Overview section, t=
hat requiring Bob's call agent to maintain a "validation cache" that maps c=
alling party numbers to public keys serves a similar purpose to having a CA=
 that effectively attests that calling party numbers are associated with ce=
rtificates. The question is whether that mapping database is better staged =
in one or more ACME-style CAs or in every call agent that participates in t=
his architecture. Off the top of my head it doesn't seem easier to be from =
an implementation or deployment standpoint to stage this in the call agents=
. And doing this in a way that gives you an 8226 cert - even a self-signed =
one - would I think have a more realistic incremental deployment path towar=
d the long-term STIR architecture.

So definitely support having this capability, I think there are choices to =
make about exactly how to approach it, and we should discuss in London. We =
need this, so I'm happy to see some energy around it.

Jon Peterson
Neustar, Inc.

From: stir <stir-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf =
of Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@jdrosen.net<mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net>>
Date: Thursday, March 1, 2018 at 6:14 PM
To: "stir@ietf.org<mailto:stir@ietf.org>" <stir@ietf.org<mailto:stir@ietf.o=
rg>>
Subject: [stir] New draft draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00

Hey all - been a while :)

Cullen and I wrote up a concept for using STIR with self-signed or domain b=
ased certs, and then handling number validation with an in-band callback. W=
e think its a promising approach to accelerate STIR deployments, since it a=
llows them to happen without the cert infrastructure being in place.

https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00.txt

Comments welcome.

-Jonathan R.

--
Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D.
jdrosen@jdrosen.net<mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net>
http://www.jdrosen.net

--_000_D6BEC6D81F70D3jonpetersonneustarbiz_
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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"=
>
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Well nice of you to join us here, finally!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So broadly, we have long needed some kind of proof-of-possession test =
for calling party numbers to help expedite STIR deployment. We've sketched =
out various approaches like doing that with SMS return-routability tests (s=
ee section 4.2 of draft-ietf-acme-telephone,
 say), and having a SIP-level way to do such a test definitely seems like a=
 valid approach. I don't recall that we've considered a kind of &quot;callb=
ack on first use&quot; (COFU?) approach to this before. It has some good pr=
operties.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I guess the one comment I'd make about the overall direction though is=
 that up until now, I've been envisioning staging these proof-of-possession=
 tests within ACME. In other words, propping up a boulder implementation th=
at would challenge with some kind
 of routability test to establish effective proof of control of a number in=
 order to get you an 8226 individual-TN cert. Practically speaking, that AC=
ME challenge could use stir-callback pretty much as your draft describes it=
. I don't think deploying an ACME
 CA to do this faces anything like the practical hurdles that faced public =
ENUM, say. It's something anyone could do tomorrow (if the necessary elemen=
ts supported stir-callback tomorrow).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I suppose, speaking to the example in the stir-callback Overview secti=
on, that requiring Bob's call agent to maintain a &quot;validation cache&qu=
ot; that maps calling party numbers to public keys serves a similar purpose=
 to having a CA that effectively attests that
 calling party numbers are associated with certificates. The question is wh=
ether that mapping database is better staged in one or more ACME-style CAs =
or in every call agent that participates in this architecture. Off the top =
of my head it doesn't seem easier
 to be from an implementation or deployment standpoint to stage this in the=
 call agents. And doing this in a way that gives you an 8226 cert - even a =
self-signed one - would I think have a more realistic incremental deploymen=
t path toward the long-term STIR
 architecture.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So definitely support having this capability, I think there are choice=
s to make about exactly how to approach it, and we should discuss in London=
. We need this, so I'm happy to see some energy around it.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Jon Peterson</div>
<div>Neustar, Inc.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:b=
lack; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM:=
 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;=
 BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>stir &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:st=
ir-bounces@ietf.org">stir-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Jonathan Ro=
senberg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net">jdrosen@jdrosen.net</a>&=
gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Thursday, March 1, 2018 at 6:=
14 PM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:stir@ie=
tf.org">stir@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org">stir@i=
etf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>[stir] New draft draft-ros=
enberg-stir-callback-00<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>Hey all - been a while :)<br>
<br>
</div>
Cullen and I wrote up a concept for using STIR with self-signed or domain b=
ased certs, and then handling number validation with an in-band callback. W=
e think its a promising approach to accelerate STIR deployments, since it a=
llows them to happen without the
 cert infrastructure being in place. <br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00.txt">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/id/draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00.txt</a><br>
<br>
</div>
Comments welcome. <br>
<br>
</div>
-Jonathan R.<br clear=3D"all">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
-- <br>
<div class=3D"gmail_signature">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D.<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net" target=3D"_blank">jdrosen@jdrosen.ne=
t</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://www.jdrosen.net" target=3D"_blank">http://www.jdrosen.net=
</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span>
</body>
</html>

--_000_D6BEC6D81F70D3jonpetersonneustarbiz_--


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References: <D6BEC6D8.1F70D3%jon.peterson@neustar.biz>
From: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@jdrosen.net>
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2018 16:52:33 -0500
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Subject: Re: [stir] New draft draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00
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Good to be here Jon. Frankly, I got so tired of multiple robocalls each
day, I woke up one morning and decided to do something about it. That, in
addition to feeling some personal accountability for the problem for not
having baked in a solution into SIP at the outset.

You are of course correct that one could in fact take just the SIP aspect
of this draft, and emit it from the CA to rather than have it be
distributed amongst agents. Though that is a lower bar still for deployment
than an ENUM-style process, I think its still quite a high bar for a CA in
terms of the accountability that it entails. The CA still becomes
accountable for holding an accurate and authoritative database of numbers
for (presumably) a very large number of users, for keeping it up to date,
for handling corrections should an error get made (which invariably it will
for some reason), for deciding how to price such a service, for dealing
with whatever local regulations their lawyers think they may be signing up
for by being in the telco business. Since, regardless of how this database
gets populate, they are in the telco business because they sell a telco
database.

Distributing the work distributes the accountability, and places it in the
first party (the entity that consumes it) rather than the third party (with
someone else). That is a dramatic difference.

-Jonathan R.


On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 12:56 PM, Peterson, Jon <jon.peterson@team.neustar>
wrote:

>
> Well nice of you to join us here, finally!
>
> So broadly, we have long needed some kind of proof-of-possession test for
> calling party numbers to help expedite STIR deployment. We've sketched out
> various approaches like doing that with SMS return-routability tests (see
> section 4.2 of draft-ietf-acme-telephone, say), and having a SIP-level way
> to do such a test definitely seems like a valid approach. I don't recall
> that we've considered a kind of "callback on first use" (COFU?) approach to
> this before. It has some good properties.
>
> I guess the one comment I'd make about the overall direction though is
> that up until now, I've been envisioning staging these proof-of-possession
> tests within ACME. In other words, propping up a boulder implementation
> that would challenge with some kind of routability test to establish
> effective proof of control of a number in order to get you an 8226
> individual-TN cert. Practically speaking, that ACME challenge could use
> stir-callback pretty much as your draft describes it. I don't think
> deploying an ACME CA to do this faces anything like the practical hurdles
> that faced public ENUM, say. It's something anyone could do tomorrow (if
> the necessary elements supported stir-callback tomorrow).
>
> I suppose, speaking to the example in the stir-callback Overview section,
> that requiring Bob's call agent to maintain a "validation cache" that maps
> calling party numbers to public keys serves a similar purpose to having a
> CA that effectively attests that calling party numbers are associated with
> certificates. The question is whether that mapping database is better
> staged in one or more ACME-style CAs or in every call agent that
> participates in this architecture. Off the top of my head it doesn't seem
> easier to be from an implementation or deployment standpoint to stage this
> in the call agents. And doing this in a way that gives you an 8226 cert -
> even a self-signed one - would I think have a more realistic incremental
> deployment path toward the long-term STIR architecture.
>
> So definitely support having this capability, I think there are choices to
> make about exactly how to approach it, and we should discuss in London. We
> need this, so I'm happy to see some energy around it.
>
> Jon Peterson
> Neustar, Inc.
>
> From: stir <stir-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Jonathan Rosenberg <
> jdrosen@jdrosen.net>
> Date: Thursday, March 1, 2018 at 6:14 PM
> To: "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
> Subject: [stir] New draft draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00
>
> Hey all - been a while :)
>
> Cullen and I wrote up a concept for using STIR with self-signed or domain
> based certs, and then handling number validation with an in-band callback.
> We think its a promising approach to accelerate STIR deployments, since it
> allows them to happen without the cert infrastructure being in place.
>
> https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00.txt
>
> Comments welcome.
>
> -Jonathan R.
>
> --
> Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D.
> jdrosen@jdrosen.net
> http://www.jdrosen.net
>
>


-- 
Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D.
jdrosen@jdrosen.net
http://www.jdrosen.net

--089e082488506409be056674fe86
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>Good to be here Jon. Frankly, I got so tire=
d of multiple robocalls each day, I woke up one morning and decided to do s=
omething about it. That, in addition to feeling some personal accountabilit=
y for the problem for not having baked in a solution into SIP at the outset=
. <br><br></div>You are of course correct that one could in fact take just =
the SIP aspect of this draft, and emit it from the CA to rather than have i=
t be distributed amongst agents. Though that is a lower bar still for deplo=
yment than an ENUM-style process, I think its still quite a high bar for a =
CA in terms of the accountability that it entails. The CA still becomes acc=
ountable for holding an accurate and authoritative database of numbers for =
(presumably) a very large number of users, for keeping it up to date, for h=
andling corrections should an error get made (which invariably it will for =
some reason), for deciding how to price such a service, for dealing with wh=
atever local regulations their lawyers think they may be signing up for by =
being in the telco business. Since, regardless of how this database gets po=
pulate, they are in the telco business because they sell a telco database.<=
br><br></div>Distributing the work distributes the accountability, and plac=
es it in the first party (the entity that consumes it) rather than the thir=
d party (with someone else). That is a dramatic difference. <br><br></div>-=
Jonathan R.<br><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Mar 2, 2018 at 12:56 PM, Peterson, Jon <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jon.peterson@team.neustar" target=3D"_blank"=
>jon.peterson@team.neustar</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:14px;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Well nice of you to join us here, finally!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So broadly, we have long needed some kind of proof-of-possession test =
for calling party numbers to help expedite STIR deployment. We&#39;ve sketc=
hed out various approaches like doing that with SMS return-routability test=
s (see section 4.2 of draft-ietf-acme-telephone,
 say), and having a SIP-level way to do such a test definitely seems like a=
 valid approach. I don&#39;t recall that we&#39;ve considered a kind of &qu=
ot;callback on first use&quot; (COFU?) approach to this before. It has some=
 good properties.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I guess the one comment I&#39;d make about the overall direction thoug=
h is that up until now, I&#39;ve been envisioning staging these proof-of-po=
ssession tests within ACME. In other words, propping up a boulder implement=
ation that would challenge with some kind
 of routability test to establish effective proof of control of a number in=
 order to get you an 8226 individual-TN cert. Practically speaking, that AC=
ME challenge could use stir-callback pretty much as your draft describes it=
. I don&#39;t think deploying an ACME
 CA to do this faces anything like the practical hurdles that faced public =
ENUM, say. It&#39;s something anyone could do tomorrow (if the necessary el=
ements supported stir-callback tomorrow).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I suppose, speaking to the example in the stir-callback Overview secti=
on, that requiring Bob&#39;s call agent to maintain a &quot;validation cach=
e&quot; that maps calling party numbers to public keys serves a similar pur=
pose to having a CA that effectively attests that
 calling party numbers are associated with certificates. The question is wh=
ether that mapping database is better staged in one or more ACME-style CAs =
or in every call agent that participates in this architecture. Off the top =
of my head it doesn&#39;t seem easier
 to be from an implementation or deployment standpoint to stage this in the=
 call agents. And doing this in a way that gives you an 8226 cert - even a =
self-signed one - would I think have a more realistic incremental deploymen=
t path toward the long-term STIR
 architecture.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So definitely support having this capability, I think there are choice=
s to make about exactly how to approach it, and we should discuss in London=
. We need this, so I&#39;m happy to see some energy around it.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Jon Peterson</div>
<div>Neustar, Inc.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"m_-4782218771683275198OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri;font-size:11pt;text-align:left;color:blac=
k;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none;BORDER-LEFT:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADD=
ING-LEFT:0in;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;BORDER-TOP:#b5c4df 1pt solid;BORDER-RIGHT:me=
dium none;PADDING-TOP:3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>stir &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:st=
ir-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">stir-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on beh=
alf of Jonathan Rosenberg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net" target=
=3D"_blank">jdrosen@jdrosen.net</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Thursday, March 1, 2018 at 6:=
14 PM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:stir@ie=
tf.org" target=3D"_blank">stir@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sti=
r@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">stir@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>[stir] New draft draft-ros=
enberg-stir-callback-<wbr>00<br>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote id=3D"m_-4782218771683275198MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"=
 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#b5c4df 5 solid;PADDING:0 0 0 5;MARGIN:0 0 0 5">
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>Hey all - been a while :)<br>
<br>
</div>
Cullen and I wrote up a concept for using STIR with self-signed or domain b=
ased certs, and then handling number validation with an in-band callback. W=
e think its a promising approach to accelerate STIR deployments, since it a=
llows them to happen without the
 cert infrastructure being in place. <br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00.txt" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-<wbr>rosenberg-stir-callback-=
00.txt</a><br>
<br>
</div>
Comments welcome. <br>
<br>
</div>
-Jonathan R.<br clear=3D"all">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
-- <br>
<div class=3D"m_-4782218771683275198gmail_signature">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D.<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net" target=3D"_blank">jdrosen@jdrosen.ne=
t</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://www.jdrosen.net" target=3D"_blank">http://www.jdrosen.net=
</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div></div></span>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail_sig=
nature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr">Jonathan Rosenb=
erg, Ph.D.<br><a href=3D"mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net" target=3D"_blank">jdro=
sen@jdrosen.net</a><br><a href=3D"http://www.jdrosen.net" target=3D"_blank"=
>http://www.jdrosen.net</a></div></div>
</div>

--089e082488506409be056674fe86--


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Subject: [stir] SIPCoin - a new cryptocurrency for stopping robocalls
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Cullen and I have just submitted this:
https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-rosenberg-stir-sipcoin-00.txt

which is a proposal for a new type of cyryptocurrency dedicated solely to
preventing spam on the SIP-based phone network. It is designed to be fast,
causing less than one second increases in call setup time.
NOn-transferrable to avoid being a tool for fraud and avoid being tied to
market whim; backed by public CAs with a new type of centralized ledger
validation; trivially verifiable by receivers of calls. Also we suggest a
technique for incremental deployment on the PSTN which has incremental
benefits and economic benefits for each deployment phase. We've done some
analysis on the economics to help motivate the solution.

WHen combined with our previous draft, and some nice whitelisting thrown in
as described in here, I think this is a very interested technique to put
this robocalling plague to rest.

I'm coming to London and looking forward to discussing.

Comments are, of course, welcome.

-- 
Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D.
jdrosen@jdrosen.net
http://www.jdrosen.net

--001a113d2bd8d9b6ad056675baa1
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div>Cullen and I have just submitted this:=
<br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-rosenberg-stir-sipcoin-00.txt"=
>https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-rosenberg-stir-sipcoin-00.txt</a><br><br></d=
iv>which is a proposal for a new type of cyryptocurrency dedicated solely t=
o preventing spam on the SIP-based phone network. It is designed to be fast=
, causing less than one second increases in call setup time. NOn-transferra=
ble to avoid being a tool for fraud and avoid being tied to market whim; ba=
cked by public CAs with a new type of centralized ledger validation; trivia=
lly verifiable by receivers of calls. Also we suggest a technique for incre=
mental deployment on the PSTN which has incremental benefits and economic b=
enefits for each deployment phase. We&#39;ve done some analysis on the econ=
omics to help motivate the solution.<br><br></div>WHen combined with our pr=
evious draft, and some nice whitelisting thrown in as described in here, I =
think this is a very interested technique to put this robocalling plague to=
 rest.<br><br></div>I&#39;m coming to London and looking forward to discuss=
ing. <br><br></div>Comments are, of course, welcome.<br clear=3D"all"><div>=
<div><div><div><div><br>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"l=
tr">Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D.<br><a href=3D"mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net" tar=
get=3D"_blank">jdrosen@jdrosen.net</a><br><a href=3D"http://www.jdrosen.net=
" target=3D"_blank">http://www.jdrosen.net</a></div></div>
</div></div></div></div></div></div>

--001a113d2bd8d9b6ad056675baa1--


From nobody Sat Mar  3 16:06:31 2018
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To: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@jdrosen.net>, stir@ietf.org
References: <CA+23+fFUEESKoQXtoAwg6ySovUb5-Eiy98_wdukcLKQNOrcn3A@mail.gmail.com>
From: Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>
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Subject: Re: [stir] SIPCoin - a new cryptocurrency for stopping robocalls
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One of the issues that has arisen in parallel with cryptocurrencies is a 
recognition of the exorbitant energy (and therefore environmental) costs 
they entail. I think this document probably requires a section 
addressing this aspect of the system, including any ways that it varies 
significantly from traditional cryptocurrencies in this regard.

/a

On 3/2/18 4:45 PM, Jonathan Rosenberg wrote:
> Cullen and I have just submitted this:
> https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-rosenberg-stir-sipcoin-00.txt
>
> which is a proposal for a new type of cyryptocurrency dedicated solely 
> to preventing spam on the SIP-based phone network. It is designed to 
> be fast, causing less than one second increases in call setup time. 
> NOn-transferrable to avoid being a tool for fraud and avoid being tied 
> to market whim; backed by public CAs with a new type of centralized 
> ledger validation; trivially verifiable by receivers of calls. Also we 
> suggest a technique for incremental deployment on the PSTN which has 
> incremental benefits and economic benefits for each deployment phase. 
> We've done some analysis on the economics to help motivate the solution.
>
> WHen combined with our previous draft, and some nice whitelisting 
> thrown in as described in here, I think this is a very interested 
> technique to put this robocalling plague to rest.
>
> I'm coming to London and looking forward to discussing.
>
> Comments are, of course, welcome.
>
> -- 
> Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D.
> jdrosen@jdrosen.net <mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net>
> http://www.jdrosen.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> stir mailing list
> stir@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir



--------------972D2595D7864E339B0CF62F
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<html>
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    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
  </head>
  <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">One of the issues that has arisen in
      parallel with cryptocurrencies is a recognition of the exorbitant
      energy (and therefore environmental) costs they entail. I think
      this document probably requires a section addressing this aspect
      of the system, including any ways that it varies significantly
      from traditional cryptocurrencies in this regard.<br>
      <br>
      /a<br>
      <br>
      On 3/2/18 4:45 PM, Jonathan Rosenberg wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CA+23+fFUEESKoQXtoAwg6ySovUb5-Eiy98_wdukcLKQNOrcn3A@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>
          <div>
            <div>
              <div>Cullen and I have just submitted this:<br>
                <a
                  href="https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-rosenberg-stir-sipcoin-00.txt"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-rosenberg-stir-sipcoin-00.txt</a><br>
                <br>
              </div>
              which is a proposal for a new type of cyryptocurrency
              dedicated solely to preventing spam on the SIP-based phone
              network. It is designed to be fast, causing less than one
              second increases in call setup time. NOn-transferrable to
              avoid being a tool for fraud and avoid being tied to
              market whim; backed by public CAs with a new type of
              centralized ledger validation; trivially verifiable by
              receivers of calls. Also we suggest a technique for
              incremental deployment on the PSTN which has incremental
              benefits and economic benefits for each deployment phase.
              We've done some analysis on the economics to help motivate
              the solution.<br>
              <br>
            </div>
            WHen combined with our previous draft, and some nice
            whitelisting thrown in as described in here, I think this is
            a very interested technique to put this robocalling plague
            to rest.<br>
            <br>
          </div>
          I'm coming to London and looking forward to discussing. <br>
          <br>
        </div>
        Comments are, of course, welcome.<br clear="all">
        <div>
          <div>
            <div>
              <div>
                <div><br>
                  -- <br>
                  <div class="gmail_signature">
                    <div dir="ltr">Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D.<br>
                      <a href="mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net"
                        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">jdrosen@jdrosen.net</a><br>
                      <a href="http://www.jdrosen.net" target="_blank"
                        moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.jdrosen.net</a></div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
stir mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stir@ietf.org">stir@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <p><br>
    </p>
  </body>
</html>

--------------972D2595D7864E339B0CF62F--


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From: "David Frankel" <dfrankel@zipdx.com>
To: "'Jonathan Rosenberg'" <jdrosen@jdrosen.net>, <stir@ietf.org>
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Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2018 23:50:26 -0800
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Subject: Re: [stir] New draft draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00
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Hi Jonathan and Cullen =E2=80=93

=20

I read the draft with interest and wonder if you can clarify a few =
things for me. My understanding of SIP nuances is limited, so I may be =
overlooking some obvious things here. At the same time, I=E2=80=99m =
trying to be pragmatic about how things work in the =E2=80=9Creal =
world=E2=80=9D vs. the world as defined by the specs.

=20

So my questions / comments are:

=20

A) I see in section 3 references to SUPPORTED and REQUIRE header fields =
that include =E2=80=9Cstir-callback=E2=80=9D. Then in sub-part 1 of =
section 3, in the call diagram I see references to SUPPORTED and REQUIRE =
headers that say =E2=80=9Cstir-verify=E2=80=9D.  (Note, btw, that there =
are two sub-parts 1 in section 3; I think they are supposed to be =
numbered 1, 2, 3 instead of 1, 1, 2.) There are further references in =
the document to =E2=80=9Cstir-verify=E2=80=9D. Then in section 8.1, =
there are references to a =E2=80=9Csip-verify=E2=80=9D Option Tag.=20

=20

So my question is: are =E2=80=9Cstir-callback=E2=80=9D, =
=E2=80=9Cstir-verify=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Csip-verify=E2=80=9D all meant =
to be the same string, and perhaps the exact value evolved during =
development of the document? Or are there really two or three different =
option-tags involved here? Or am I missing how these three different =
values are actually applied?

=20

B) In the =E2=80=9Creal world=E2=80=9D, a PSTN call from Bob (tel:1, =
served by Provider B), to Alice (tel:2 <tel:1> , served by Provider A) =
is often completed by B sending the call to transit provider X, which, =
even in an end-to-end SIP connection, will re-initiate the call and send =
it to provider Y, which then re-initiates it and sends it to terminating =
Provider A. (Note that the call path from B to A typically does not =
necessarily follow the reverse path of a call from A to B.)

=20

So in order to propagate properly from origination to termination, the =
=E2=80=9Cverifying INVITE=E2=80=9D proposed in section 3, containing the =
REQUIRE: stir-callback header, will need to first be processed by =
Provider X. As I understand it, X will need to be capable of recognizing =
the new REQUIRE header and knowing that it needs to propagate the call =
onward (NOT reject it due to lack of support for stir-callback), and =
will need to send the call to Y with the new REQUIRE header included. =
AND it will also need to know that it needs to propagate the VERIFY-CALL =
header as well.

=20

Y will receive this INVITE, and it too will need to know that it needs =
to accept this invite and propagate it onward with the REQUIRE and =
VERIFY-CALL headers.

=20

Since stir-callback is not today a defined option, if X and Y were =
conforming to the SIP RFC, they would today reject this INVITE. So does =
this mean that your STIR-Callback approach will necessitate updates of =
currently-conforming UA=E2=80=99s acting in the transit role to now =
provide support for this new type of INVITE?

=20

Finally, if and when the verification INVITE gets to A, and as your =
document explains, A will have to be smart enough to process the verify =
request and send the appropriate response. That support is noted in your =
document; I=E2=80=99m wondering if you also need to document the kind of =
support that will be required from intermediate providers, and note the =
importance of A being RFC-compliant with respect to REQUIRE headers it =
does not understand.

=20

C) At the end of section 3 you note: =E2=80=9CThe presence of the =
Require header field in the verifying INVITE is critical to the =
operation of the solution.  It prevents the verifying INVITE from =
actually ringing a real phone, which would be quite annoying.=E2=80=9D =
This is my biggest concern.

=20

If the new REQUIRE header gets dropped somewhere along the way, the =
INVITE will look =E2=80=9Cnormal=E2=80=9D, so won=E2=80=99t Provider A =
ring Alice=E2=80=99s phone? Or, if A is not RFC-compliant and ignores =
the REQUIRE header, Alice=E2=80=99s phone will ring. (And of course if =
the call originator was spoofing the number, and in fact Bob=E2=80=99s =
verification INVITE went to the real owner of the number, served by =
provider C, C would have to be RFC-compliant in this regard or the real =
number owner=E2=80=99s phone would ring.)

=20

I am nervous that in today=E2=80=99s real world deployments, your =
approach is fragile because it is dependent on the various UA=E2=80=99s =
in the call path diligently following the SIP RFC.

=20

I made a few test calls acting like I was Bob=E2=80=99s UA, having =
received an INVITE from A that I want to verify. So I sent an INVITE =
back towards A, inserting the REQUIRE: stir-callback header in my mock =
=E2=80=9Cverification=E2=80=9D INVITE; I sent these calls through =
various real-world termination providers.=20

=20

In a couple of cases, I got back 420 Bad Extension responses. =
That=E2=80=99s good and bad; the good news is that it tells me that =
those particular UA=E2=80=99s ARE RFC compliant in this respect. They =
don=E2=80=99t understand a REQUIREd option so they are necessarily =
rejecting the call. On the other hand, it points out that if these =
UA=E2=80=99s are acting as intermediate providers (which, in these =
cases, they are), they will need to be updated to accept and pass the =
stir-callback related headers even though they are just providing a =
transit function and even though they are not assuming any =
responsibility for verification.

=20

In my other test cases, the destination phone rang even though this was =
supposed to be a =E2=80=9Cverification=E2=80=9D INVITE. This tells me, I =
think, that at least the first UA (X, in my explanation above) in the =
verification call path is non-RFC-complaint, and that downstream =
UA=E2=80=99s are either also non-compliant, or that the REQUIRE header =
got dropped along the way.

=20

I am nervous about the extent to which deployed UA=E2=80=99s are =
non-RFC-compliant with respect to the REQUIRE header, and how that could =
undermine deployability of this solution. Maybe you intended that the =
solution only apply when A and B are directly connected and there are no =
intermediate providers. But I=E2=80=99m concerned that=E2=80=99s only a =
small fraction of =E2=80=9Creal world=E2=80=9D calls today.

=20

I am interested in your thoughts on these items, and on getting me back =
on track if I=E2=80=99ve misunderstood aspects of the proposal.

=20

David

=20

David Frankel

ZipDX=C2=AE LLC

Monte Sereno, CA USA

Tel: 1-800-FRANKEL (1-800-372-6535)

=20

From: stir <stir-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Jonathan Rosenberg
Sent: Thursday, March 1, 2018 6:15 PM
To: stir@ietf.org
Subject: [stir] New draft draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00

=20

Hey all - been a while :)

Cullen and I wrote up a concept for using STIR with self-signed or =
domain based certs, and then handling number validation with an in-band =
callback. We think its a promising approach to accelerate STIR =
deployments, since it allows them to happen without the cert =
infrastructure being in place.=20

https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00.txt

Comments welcome.=20

-Jonathan R.



--=20

Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D.
jdrosen@jdrosen.net <mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net>=20
http://www.jdrosen.net


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi =
Jonathan and Cullen =E2=80=93<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I read the =
draft with interest and wonder if you can clarify a few things for me. =
My understanding of SIP nuances is limited, so I may be overlooking some =
obvious things here. At the same time, I=E2=80=99m trying to be =
pragmatic about how things work in the =E2=80=9Creal world=E2=80=9D vs. =
the world as defined by the specs.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>So my =
questions / comments are:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>A) I see in =
section 3 references to SUPPORTED and REQUIRE header fields that include =
=E2=80=9Cstir-callback=E2=80=9D. Then in sub-part 1 of section 3, in the =
call diagram I see references to SUPPORTED and REQUIRE headers that say =
=E2=80=9Cstir-verify=E2=80=9D. =C2=A0(Note, btw, that there are two =
sub-parts 1 in section 3; I think they are supposed to be numbered 1, 2, =
3 instead of 1, 1, 2.) There are further references in the document to =
=E2=80=9Cstir-verify=E2=80=9D. Then in section 8.1, there are references =
to a =E2=80=9Csip-verify=E2=80=9D Option Tag. <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>So my =
question is: are =E2=80=9Cstir-callback=E2=80=9D, =
=E2=80=9Cstir-verify=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Csip-verify=E2=80=9D all meant =
to be the same string, and perhaps the exact value evolved during =
development of the document? Or are there really two or three different =
option-tags involved here? Or am I missing how these three different =
values are actually applied?<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>B) In the =
=E2=80=9Creal world=E2=80=9D, a PSTN call from Bob (tel:1, served by =
Provider B), to Alice (<a href=3D"tel:1">tel:2</a>, served by Provider =
A) is often completed by B sending the call to transit provider X, =
which, even in an end-to-end SIP connection, will re-initiate the call =
and send it to provider Y, which then re-initiates it and sends it to =
terminating Provider A. (Note that the call path from B to A typically =
does not necessarily follow the reverse path of a call from A to =
B.)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>So in order to propagate properly from origination to =
termination, the =E2=80=9Cverifying INVITE=E2=80=9D proposed in section =
3, containing the REQUIRE: stir-callback header, will need to first be =
processed by Provider X. As I understand it, X will need to be capable =
of recognizing the new REQUIRE header and knowing that it needs to =
propagate the call onward (NOT reject it due to lack of support for =
stir-callback), and will need to send the call to Y with the new REQUIRE =
header included. AND it will also need to know that it needs to =
propagate the VERIFY-CALL header as well.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Y will =
receive this INVITE, and it too will need to know that it needs to =
accept this invite and propagate it onward with the REQUIRE and =
VERIFY-CALL headers.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Since =
stir-callback is not today a defined option, if X and Y were conforming =
to the SIP RFC, they would today reject this INVITE. So does this mean =
that your STIR-Callback approach will necessitate updates of =
currently-conforming UA=E2=80=99s acting in the transit role to now =
provide support for this new type of INVITE?<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Finally, if =
and when the verification INVITE gets to A, and as your document =
explains, A will have to be smart enough to process the verify request =
and send the appropriate response. That support is noted in your =
document; I=E2=80=99m wondering if you also need to document the kind of =
support that will be required from intermediate providers, and note the =
importance of A being RFC-compliant with respect to REQUIRE headers it =
does not understand.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>C) At the =
end of section 3 you note: =E2=80=9CThe presence of the Require header =
field in the verifying INVITE is critical to the operation of the =
solution.=C2=A0 It prevents the verifying INVITE from actually ringing a =
real phone, which would be quite annoying.=E2=80=9D This is my biggest =
concern.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>If the new REQUIRE header gets dropped somewhere along =
the way, the INVITE will look =E2=80=9Cnormal=E2=80=9D, so won=E2=80=99t =
Provider A ring Alice=E2=80=99s phone? Or, if A is not RFC-compliant and =
ignores the REQUIRE header, Alice=E2=80=99s phone will ring. (And of =
course if the call originator was spoofing the number, and in fact =
Bob=E2=80=99s verification INVITE went to the real owner of the number, =
served by provider C, C would have to be RFC-compliant in this regard or =
the real number owner=E2=80=99s phone would ring.)<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I am nervous =
that in today=E2=80=99s real world deployments, your approach is fragile =
because it is dependent on the various UA=E2=80=99s in the call path =
diligently following the SIP RFC.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I made a few =
test calls acting like I was Bob=E2=80=99s UA, having received an INVITE =
from A that I want to verify. So I sent an INVITE back towards A, =
inserting the REQUIRE: stir-callback header in my mock =
=E2=80=9Cverification=E2=80=9D INVITE; I sent these calls through =
various real-world termination providers. <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>In a couple =
of cases, I got back 420 Bad Extension responses. That=E2=80=99s good =
and bad; the good news is that it tells me that those particular =
UA=E2=80=99s ARE RFC compliant in this respect. They don=E2=80=99t =
understand a REQUIREd option so they are necessarily rejecting the call. =
On the other hand, it points out that if these UA=E2=80=99s are acting =
as intermediate providers (which, in these cases, they are), they will =
need to be updated to accept and pass the stir-callback related headers =
even though they are just providing a transit function and even though =
they are not assuming any responsibility for =
verification.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>In my other test cases, the destination phone rang =
even though this was supposed to be a =E2=80=9Cverification=E2=80=9D =
INVITE. This tells me, I think, that at least the first UA (X, in my =
explanation above) in the verification call path is non-RFC-complaint, =
and that downstream UA=E2=80=99s are either also non-compliant, or that =
the REQUIRE header got dropped along the way.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I am nervous =
about the extent to which deployed UA=E2=80=99s are non-RFC-compliant =
with respect to the REQUIRE header, and how that could undermine =
deployability of this solution. Maybe you intended that the solution =
only apply when A and B are directly connected and there are no =
intermediate providers. But I=E2=80=99m concerned that=E2=80=99s only a =
small fraction of =E2=80=9Creal world=E2=80=9D calls =
today.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I am interested in your thoughts on these items, and =
on getting me back on track if I=E2=80=99ve misunderstood aspects of the =
proposal.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>David<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-TW'>David =
Frankel</span><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-TW'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#6699CC;mso-fareast-language:Z=
H-TW'>Zip</span></b><b><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:gray;mso-fareast-language:ZH-T=
W'>DX</span></b><b><sup><span =
style=3D'color:black;mso-fareast-language:ZH-TW'>=C2=AE</span></sup></b><=
span style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-TW'> LLC</span><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-TW'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-TW'>Monte Sereno, CA =
USA</span><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-TW'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-TW'>Tel: 1-800-FRANKEL =
(1-800-372-6535)</span><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-TW'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> =
stir &lt;stir-bounces@ietf.org&gt; <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jonathan =
Rosenberg<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 1, 2018 6:15 PM<br><b>To:</b> =
stir@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> [stir] New draft =
draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Hey all - been a while =
:)<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Cullen and I wrote up a concept for using =
STIR with self-signed or domain based certs, and then handling number =
validation with an in-band callback. We think its a promising approach =
to accelerate STIR deployments, since it allows them to happen without =
the cert infrastructure being in place. <br><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00.txt">htt=
ps://www.ietf.org/id/draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00.txt</a><o:p></o:p><=
/p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Comments =
welcome. <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>-Jonathan R.<br =
clear=3Dall><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br>-- <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D.<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net" =
target=3D"_blank">jdrosen@jdrosen.net</a><br><a =
href=3D"http://www.jdrosen.net" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.jdrosen.net</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></body></html>
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From: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" <fluffy@cisco.com>
To: David Frankel <dfrankel@zipdx.com>
CC: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@jdrosen.net>, "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [stir] New draft draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00
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Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2018 01:02:46 +0000
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From: "David Frankel" <dfrankel@zipdx.com>
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Thanks for your response, Cullen.

=20

I=E2=80=99ll try to address your questions and comments at the top here, =
rather than burying them below.

=20

Regarding specifics of the misbehaving SBCs: I=E2=80=99m not comfortable =
identifying them here, but I can try to reach out to them to see if they =
want to engage directly in this discussion (or if they can give me any =
information to relay as to why they are non-conforming). I can tell you =
that they are all licensed CLECs (ranging from tiny to very large). From =
my parsing of the 200-OK they send back to me, at least some are using =
commercial SBCs; in one case, it looks like that SBC provider is now out =
of business. That=E2=80=99s not uncommon in this domain.=20

=20

I can think of a few possibilities as to why these SBCs are behaving as =
they are: (1) The manufacturer didn=E2=80=99t adhere to the SIP RFCs, =
either on purpose or due to carelessness; (2) The provider =
mis-configured the SBC in error; (3) The default configuration for the =
SBC doesn=E2=80=99t adhere to the RFCs; (4) The provider encountered =
some issue in the past and purposefully altered the configuration, and =
this is the desired result or side-effect; (5) There=E2=80=99s a bug. =
I=E2=80=99ve encountered all of these over the years.

=20

Certainly some providers will be motivated and cooperative in fixing =
problems and implementing new extensions. Others will be recalcitrant. I =
have said to providers about other non-compliant situations: =
=E2=80=9CRead the RFC. What don=E2=80=99t you understand about SHALL or =
MUST?=E2=80=9D And they respond =E2=80=9CWhat don=E2=80=99t YOU =
understand when we tell you: We don=E2=80=99t support that aspect of the =
RFC.=E2=80=9D With respect to STIR-Callback specifically, I can imagine =
that for our example, where B is sending a verify invite to A via X and =
Y, Alice=E2=80=99s phone will ring improperly, but A will point the =
finger at X (or Y) for dropping the REQUIRE header. Since Alice is a =
customer of A and not X, your notion of =E2=80=9Cthe economics of =
customer satisfaction and retention=E2=80=9D won=E2=80=99t apply.

=20

I agree with you: these same factors will definitely play into 8224 =
deployment and the propagation of the IDENTITY header. I believe that =
the team will be successful with some relatively rapid initial =
in-the-field demonstrations. But if your objective is to make a serious =
dent in the robocalling epidemic, that requires much higher penetration =
because you=E2=80=99re battling a reactive, clever enemy force. Given =
everything that has to change for 8224, that is going to take many =
years.

=20

Herding the many hundreds of US telecom providers that it takes to get =
to critical mass is a huge hurdle when we have to write new software and =
then get it deployed and configured. The multi-hop nature of our call =
network means we fail on a weak link. Worse, given the robustness of SS7 =
and the huge sunk investment, it=E2=80=99s going to take quite some time =
for it to be displaced to a level of insignificance. We=E2=80=99ll live =
in a two-protocol world for the foreseeable future.

=20

What to do in the meantime? I continue to be optimistic about leveraging =
BILLING TELEPHONE NUMBER =E2=80=93 a field that predates even Caller-ID. =
BTN is in SS7 as Charge Number, and interworks to SIP P-Charge-Info. In =
earlier days, BTN was important for billing and jurisdiction; things =
that providers HAD to pay attention to. Thus, it IS supported in =
virtually all installed network elements. In my experience, it usually =
gets propagated by intermediaries.=20

=20

By using BTN to identify call originators, or at least originating =
providers, we can throw a much brighter light on the source of our =
robocall problems, instead of continuing to flounder in the dark. That =
can be accomplished by regulation, mandating that providers insert the =
BTN and not permit customers to spoof it. This approach won=E2=80=99t =
work 100% of the time, but it can make a huge bite today while we wait =
for more sophisticated solutions to get to critical mass. I=E2=80=99m =
interested in your thoughts here.

=20

Many are quick to point out that robocalls can originate from overseas, =
where our mandates are ineffective. However, every call to a USA PSTN =
number comes through some USA-regulated originating provider, and those =
providers have commercial agreements with whoever is sending them the =
calls. So there is a mechanism to push back on the ultimate source. =
There=E2=80=99s a fair amount of evidence that at least today, the =
majority of robocalls come from a relatively small number (dozens) of =
sources, so our first priority should be to find and stop those.

=20

David

=20

David Frankel

ZipDX=C2=AE LLC

Monte Sereno, CA USA

Tel: 1-800-FRANKEL (1-800-372-6535)

=20

From: stir <stir-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Cullen Jennings (fluffy)
Sent: Sunday, March 4, 2018 5:03 PM
To: David Frankel <dfrankel@zipdx.com>
Cc: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@jdrosen.net>; stir@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [stir] New draft draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00

=20

=20





On Mar 4, 2018, at 12:50 AM, David Frankel <dfrankel@zipdx.com =
<mailto:dfrankel@zipdx.com> > wrote:

=20

Hi Jonathan and Cullen =E2=80=93

=20

I read the draft with interest and wonder if you can clarify a few =
things for me. My understanding of SIP nuances is limited, so I may be =
overlooking some obvious things here. At the same time, I=E2=80=99m =
trying to be pragmatic about how things work in the =E2=80=9Creal =
world=E2=80=9D vs. the world as defined by the specs.

=20

So my questions / comments are:

=20

A) I see in section 3 references to SUPPORTED and REQUIRE header fields =
that include =E2=80=9Cstir-callback=E2=80=9D. Then in sub-part 1 of =
section 3, in the call diagram I see references to SUPPORTED and REQUIRE =
headers that say =E2=80=9Cstir-verify=E2=80=9D.  (Note, btw, that there =
are two sub-parts 1 in section 3; I think they are supposed to be =
numbered 1, 2, 3 instead of 1, 1, 2.) There are further references in =
the document to =E2=80=9Cstir-verify=E2=80=9D. Then in section 8.1, =
there are references to a =E2=80=9Csip-verify=E2=80=9D Option Tag.=20

=20

So my question is: are =E2=80=9Cstir-callback=E2=80=9D, =
=E2=80=9Cstir-verify=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Csip-verify=E2=80=9D all meant =
to be the same string, and perhaps the exact value evolved during =
development of the document? Or are there really two or three different =
option-tags involved here? Or am I missing how these three different =
values are actually applied?

=20

=20

We probably just messed up some cut and paste as we changed names.=20





B) In the =E2=80=9Creal world=E2=80=9D, a PSTN call from Bob (tel:1, =
served by Provider B), to Alice (tel:2 <tel:1> , served by Provider A) =
is often completed by B sending the call to transit provider X, which, =
even in an end-to-end SIP connection, will re-initiate the call and send =
it to provider Y, which then re-initiates it and sends it to terminating =
Provider A. (Note that the call path from B to A typically does not =
necessarily follow the reverse path of a call from A to B.)

=20

So in order to propagate properly from origination to termination, the =
=E2=80=9Cverifying INVITE=E2=80=9D proposed in section 3, containing the =
REQUIRE: stir-callback header, will need to first be processed by =
Provider X. As I understand it, X will need to be capable of recognizing =
the new REQUIRE header and knowing that it needs to propagate the call =
onward (NOT reject it due to lack of support for stir-callback), and =
will need to send the call to Y with the new REQUIRE header included. =
AND it will also need to know that it needs to propagate the VERIFY-CALL =
header as well.

=20

Y will receive this INVITE, and it too will need to know that it needs =
to accept this invite and propagate it onward with the REQUIRE and =
VERIFY-CALL headers.

=20

Since stir-callback is not today a defined option, if X and Y were =
conforming to the SIP RFC, they would today reject this INVITE. So does =
this mean that your STIR-Callback approach will necessitate updates of =
currently-conforming UA=E2=80=99s acting in the transit role to now =
provide support for this new type of INVITE?

=20

Finally, if and when the verification INVITE gets to A, and as your =
document explains, A will have to be smart enough to process the verify =
request and send the appropriate response. That support is noted in your =
document; I=E2=80=99m wondering if you also need to document the kind of =
support that will be required from intermediate providers, and note the =
importance of A being RFC-compliant with respect to REQUIRE headers it =
does not understand.

=20

Yes, you are right the intermediate providers SBCs would need to be =
configured to support that require header. This is certainly a =
deployment issue but I=E2=80=99m not sure I see it as much different =
from the same SBCs needing to be configured to 8224 Identity header. =
Thoughts ?=20





=20

C) At the end of section 3 you note: =E2=80=9CThe presence of the =
Require header field in the verifying INVITE is critical to the =
operation of the solution.  It prevents the verifying INVITE from =
actually ringing a real phone, which would be quite annoying.=E2=80=9D =
This is my biggest concern.

=20

If the new REQUIRE header gets dropped somewhere along the way, the =
INVITE will look =E2=80=9Cnormal=E2=80=9D, so won=E2=80=99t Provider A =
ring Alice=E2=80=99s phone? Or, if A is not RFC-compliant and ignores =
the REQUIRE header, Alice=E2=80=99s phone will ring. (And of course if =
the call originator was spoofing the number, and in fact Bob=E2=80=99s =
verification INVITE went to the real owner of the number, served by =
provider C, C would have to be RFC-compliant in this regard or the real =
number owner=E2=80=99s phone would ring.)

=20

I am nervous that in today=E2=80=99s real world deployments, your =
approach is fragile because it is dependent on the various UA=E2=80=99s =
in the call path diligently following the SIP RFC.

=20

I made a few test calls acting like I was Bob=E2=80=99s UA, having =
received an INVITE from A that I want to verify. So I sent an INVITE =
back towards A, inserting the REQUIRE: stir-callback header in my mock =
=E2=80=9Cverification=E2=80=9D INVITE; I sent these calls through =
various real-world termination providers.=20

=20

In a couple of cases, I got back 420 Bad Extension responses. =
That=E2=80=99s good and bad; the good news is that it tells me that =
those particular UA=E2=80=99s ARE RFC compliant in this respect. They =
don=E2=80=99t understand a REQUIREd option so they are necessarily =
rejecting the call. On the other hand, it points out that if these =
UA=E2=80=99s are acting as intermediate providers (which, in these =
cases, they are), they will need to be updated to accept and pass the =
stir-callback related headers even though they are just providing a =
transit function and even though they are not assuming any =
responsibility for verification.

=20

In my other test cases, the destination phone rang even though this was =
supposed to be a =E2=80=9Cverification=E2=80=9D INVITE. This tells me, I =
think, that at least the first UA (X, in my explanation above) in the =
verification call path is non-RFC-complaint, and that downstream =
UA=E2=80=99s are either also non-compliant, or that the REQUIRE header =
got dropped along the way.

=20

I am nervous about the extent to which deployed UA=E2=80=99s are =
non-RFC-compliant with respect to the REQUIRE header, and how that could =
undermine deployability of this solution. Maybe you intended that the =
solution only apply when A and B are directly connected and there are no =
intermediate providers. But I=E2=80=99m concerned that=E2=80=99s only a =
small fraction of =E2=80=9Creal world=E2=80=9D calls today.

=20

=20

First let me say that is awesome you just went and tried this. I love =
real world data. Some of the version of Asterisk I have seen configured =
that way but sort of surprised if people are using ACME or Cisco SBCs =
that way. I certainly don=E2=80=99t have any desire to embarrass any =
particular SP about their SIP deployment but would you be willing to =
share what providers did this such that we might try and track down why =
they did it - that might help decide how much of an issue it is?=20





=20

I am interested in your thoughts on these items, and on getting me back =
on track if I=E2=80=99ve misunderstood aspects of the proposal.

=20

=20

I think you have understood the gist of the proposal and perhaps we have =
some tweaks to make. I agree with your high level points of there are =
intermediaries in the call we care about and that if any server along =
the chain is non compliant with require, it does not work well. Perhaps =
we can think of ways to mitigate that but not obvious how.=20

=20

Now that we have 8824 out the door, I=E2=80=99m more trying out ideas to =
see what might work to help reduce SPAM and I share some of your =
concerns about this but not sure what=E2=80=99s better for deployment.=20

=20

However, any in band STIR solution is going to require the service =
providers to test and support it. I would not be surprised to find that =
any SBC configured to ignore the Require header is also pretty unlike to =
pass the Identity header.  For a long time, I have seen many things =
blocked at IETF from by the =E2=80=9CSBC won=E2=80=99t support =
that=E2=80=9D argument but in this particular case it is a bit =
different. If some carrier has all of it customers getting an irritating =
call back call ever time they dial a new number, I=E2=80=99m sure the =
economics of customer satisfaction and retention will cause that carrier =
to change the configuration of their SBC to not ignore the Require =
header.=20

=20

I am worried about this and the rest of STIR when the interconnect =
between the carriers is SS7.=20

=20





=20

David

=20

David Frankel

ZipDX=C2=AE LLC

Monte Sereno, CA USA

Tel: 1-800-FRANKEL (1-800-372-6535)

=20

From: stir <stir-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org> > On =
Behalf Of Jonathan Rosenberg
Sent: Thursday, March 1, 2018 6:15 PM
To: stir@ietf.org <mailto:stir@ietf.org>=20
Subject: [stir] New draft draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00

=20

Hey all - been a while :)

Cullen and I wrote up a concept for using STIR with self-signed or =
domain based certs, and then handling number validation with an in-band =
callback. We think its a promising approach to accelerate STIR =
deployments, since it allows them to happen without the cert =
infrastructure being in place.=20

https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00.txt

Comments welcome.=20

-Jonathan R.



--=20

Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D.
jdrosen@jdrosen.net <mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net>=20
http://www.jdrosen.net <http://www.jdrosen.net/>=20

_______________________________________________
stir mailing list
stir@ietf.org <mailto:stir@ietf.org>=20
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir

=20


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vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks for =
your response, Cullen.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I=E2=80=99ll =
try to address your questions and comments at the top here, rather than =
burying them below.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Regarding =
specifics of the misbehaving SBCs: I=E2=80=99m not comfortable =
identifying them here, but I can try to reach out to them to see if they =
want to engage directly in this discussion (or if they can give me any =
information to relay as to why they are non-conforming). I can tell you =
that they are all licensed CLECs (ranging from tiny to very large). From =
my parsing of the 200-OK they send back to me, at least some are using =
commercial SBCs; in one case, it looks like that SBC provider is now out =
of business. That=E2=80=99s not uncommon in this domain. =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I can think of a few possibilities as to why these =
SBCs are behaving as they are: (1) The manufacturer didn=E2=80=99t =
adhere to the SIP RFCs, either on purpose or due to carelessness; (2) =
The provider mis-configured the SBC in error; (3) The default =
configuration for the SBC doesn=E2=80=99t adhere to the RFCs; (4) The =
provider encountered some issue in the past and purposefully altered the =
configuration, and this is the desired result or side-effect; (5) =
There=E2=80=99s a bug. I=E2=80=99ve encountered all of these over the =
years.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Certainly some providers will be motivated and =
cooperative in fixing problems and implementing new extensions. Others =
will be recalcitrant. I have said to providers about other non-compliant =
situations: =E2=80=9CRead the RFC. What don=E2=80=99t you understand =
about SHALL or MUST?=E2=80=9D And they respond =E2=80=9CWhat =
don=E2=80=99t YOU understand when we tell you: We don=E2=80=99t support =
that aspect of the RFC.=E2=80=9D With respect to STIR-Callback =
specifically, I can imagine that for our example, where B is sending a =
verify invite to A via X and Y, Alice=E2=80=99s phone will ring =
improperly, but A will point the finger at X (or Y) for dropping the =
REQUIRE header. Since Alice is a customer of A and not X, your notion of =
=E2=80=9Cthe economics of customer satisfaction and retention=E2=80=9D =
won=E2=80=99t apply.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I agree with =
you: these same factors will definitely play into 8224 deployment and =
the propagation of the IDENTITY header. I believe that the team will be =
successful with some relatively rapid initial in-the-field =
demonstrations. But if your objective is to make a serious dent in the =
robocalling epidemic, that requires much higher penetration because =
you=E2=80=99re battling a reactive, clever enemy force. Given everything =
that has to change for 8224, that is going to take many =
years.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Herding the many hundreds of US telecom providers that =
it takes to get to critical mass is a huge hurdle when we have to write =
new software and then get it deployed and configured. The multi-hop =
nature of our call network means we fail on a weak link. Worse, given =
the robustness of SS7 and the huge sunk investment, it=E2=80=99s going =
to take quite some time for it to be displaced to a level of =
insignificance. We=E2=80=99ll live in a two-protocol world for the =
foreseeable future.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>What to do =
in the meantime? I continue to be optimistic about leveraging BILLING =
TELEPHONE NUMBER =E2=80=93 a field that predates even Caller-ID. BTN is =
in SS7 as Charge Number, and interworks to SIP P-Charge-Info. In earlier =
days, BTN was important for billing and jurisdiction; things that =
providers HAD to pay attention to. Thus, it IS supported in virtually =
all installed network elements. In my experience, it usually gets =
propagated by intermediaries. <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>By using BTN =
to identify call originators, or at least originating providers, we can =
throw a much brighter light on the source of our robocall problems, =
instead of continuing to flounder in the dark. That can be accomplished =
by regulation, mandating that providers insert the BTN and not permit =
customers to spoof it. This approach won=E2=80=99t work 100% of the =
time, but it can make a huge bite today while we wait for more =
sophisticated solutions to get to critical mass. I=E2=80=99m interested =
in your thoughts here.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Many are =
quick to point out that robocalls can originate from overseas, where our =
mandates are ineffective. However, every call to a USA PSTN number comes =
through some USA-regulated originating provider, and those providers =
have commercial agreements with whoever is sending them the calls. So =
there is a mechanism to push back on the ultimate source. =
There=E2=80=99s a fair amount of evidence that at least today, the =
majority of robocalls come from a relatively small number (dozens) of =
sources, so our first priority should be to find and stop =
those.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>David<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-TW'>David =
Frankel</span><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-TW'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#6699CC;mso-fareast-language:Z=
H-TW'>Zip</span></b><b><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:gray;mso-fareast-language:ZH-T=
W'>DX</span></b><b><sup><span =
style=3D'color:black;mso-fareast-language:ZH-TW'>=C2=AE</span></sup></b><=
span style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-TW'> LLC</span><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-TW'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-TW'>Monte Sereno, CA =
USA</span><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-TW'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-TW'>Tel: 1-800-FRANKEL =
(1-800-372-6535)</span><span =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:ZH-TW'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> stir =
&lt;stir-bounces@ietf.org&gt; <b>On Behalf Of </b>Cullen Jennings =
(fluffy)<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, March 4, 2018 5:03 PM<br><b>To:</b> =
David Frankel &lt;dfrankel@zipdx.com&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> Jonathan =
Rosenberg &lt;jdrosen@jdrosen.net&gt;; stir@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> =
Re: [stir] New draft =
draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On Mar 4, 2018, at 12:50 AM, David Frankel &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dfrankel@zipdx.com">dfrankel@zipdx.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Hi Jonathan and Cullen =
=E2=80=93<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
read the draft with interest and wonder if you can clarify a few things =
for me. My understanding of SIP nuances is limited, so I may be =
overlooking some obvious things here. At the same time, I=E2=80=99m =
trying to be pragmatic about how things work in the =E2=80=9Creal =
world=E2=80=9D vs. the world as defined by the =
specs.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>So my questions / comments =
are:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>A) I see in section 3 references to SUPPORTED and =
REQUIRE header fields that include =E2=80=9Cstir-callback=E2=80=9D. Then =
in sub-part 1 of section 3, in the call diagram I see references to =
SUPPORTED and REQUIRE headers that say =E2=80=9Cstir-verify=E2=80=9D. =
&nbsp;(Note, btw, that there are two sub-parts 1 in section 3; I think =
they are supposed to be numbered 1, 2, 3 instead of 1, 1, 2.) There are =
further references in the document to =E2=80=9Cstir-verify=E2=80=9D. =
Then in section 8.1, there are references to a =
=E2=80=9Csip-verify=E2=80=9D Option Tag. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>So my question is: are =
=E2=80=9Cstir-callback=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cstir-verify=E2=80=9D and =
=E2=80=9Csip-verify=E2=80=9D all meant to be the same string, and =
perhaps the exact value evolved during development of the document? Or =
are there really two or three different option-tags involved here? Or am =
I missing how these three different values are actually =
applied?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></blockquote><di=
v><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>We probably just messed up some cut and paste as we =
changed names.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>B) In the =E2=80=9Creal world=E2=80=9D, a PSTN call =
from Bob (<a href=3D"tel:1">tel:1</a>, served by Provider B), to Alice =
(<a href=3D"tel:1">tel:2</a>, served by Provider A) is often completed =
by B sending the call to transit provider X, which, even in an =
end-to-end SIP connection, will re-initiate the call and send it to =
provider Y, which then re-initiates it and sends it to terminating =
Provider A. (Note that the call path from B to A typically does not =
necessarily follow the reverse path of a call from A to =
B.)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>So in order to propagate properly from origination to =
termination, the =E2=80=9Cverifying INVITE=E2=80=9D proposed in section =
3, containing the REQUIRE: stir-callback header, will need to first be =
processed by Provider X. As I understand it, X will need to be capable =
of recognizing the new REQUIRE header and knowing that it needs to =
propagate the call onward (NOT reject it due to lack of support for =
stir-callback), and will need to send the call to Y with the new REQUIRE =
header included. AND it will also need to know that it needs to =
propagate the VERIFY-CALL header as well.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Y =
will receive this INVITE, and it too will need to know that it needs to =
accept this invite and propagate it onward with the REQUIRE and =
VERIFY-CALL headers.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Since stir-callback is not today a defined option, if =
X and Y were conforming to the SIP RFC, they would today reject this =
INVITE. So does this mean that your STIR-Callback approach will =
necessitate updates of currently-conforming UA=E2=80=99s acting in the =
transit role to now provide support for this new type of =
INVITE?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Finally, if and when the verification INVITE gets to =
A, and as your document explains, A will have to be smart enough to =
process the verify request and send the appropriate response. That =
support is noted in your document; I=E2=80=99m wondering if you also =
need to document the kind of support that will be required from =
intermediate providers, and note the importance of A being RFC-compliant =
with respect to REQUIRE headers it does not =
understand.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Yes, =
you are right the intermediate providers SBCs would need to be =
configured to support that require header. This is certainly a =
deployment issue but I=E2=80=99m not sure I see it as much different =
from the same SBCs needing to be configured to 8224 Identity header. =
Thoughts ?&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>C) At the end of section 3 you note: =E2=80=9CThe =
presence of the Require header field in the verifying INVITE is critical =
to the operation of the solution.&nbsp; It prevents the verifying INVITE =
from actually ringing a real phone, which would be quite =
annoying.=E2=80=9D This is my biggest =
concern.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>If the new REQUIRE header gets dropped somewhere along =
the way, the INVITE will look =E2=80=9Cnormal=E2=80=9D, so won=E2=80=99t =
Provider A ring Alice=E2=80=99s phone? Or, if A is not RFC-compliant and =
ignores the REQUIRE header, Alice=E2=80=99s phone will ring. (And of =
course if the call originator was spoofing the number, and in fact =
Bob=E2=80=99s verification INVITE went to the real owner of the number, =
served by provider C, C would have to be RFC-compliant in this regard or =
the real number owner=E2=80=99s phone would =
ring.)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
am nervous that in today=E2=80=99s real world deployments, your approach =
is fragile because it is dependent on the various UA=E2=80=99s in the =
call path diligently following the SIP RFC.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
made a few test calls acting like I was Bob=E2=80=99s UA, having =
received an INVITE from A that I want to verify. So I sent an INVITE =
back towards A, inserting the REQUIRE: stir-callback header in my mock =
=E2=80=9Cverification=E2=80=9D INVITE; I sent these calls through =
various real-world termination providers. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>In a couple of cases, I got back 420 Bad Extension =
responses. That=E2=80=99s good and bad; the good news is that it tells =
me that those particular UA=E2=80=99s ARE RFC compliant in this respect. =
They don=E2=80=99t understand a REQUIREd option so they are necessarily =
rejecting the call. On the other hand, it points out that if these =
UA=E2=80=99s are acting as intermediate providers (which, in these =
cases, they are), they will need to be updated to accept and pass the =
stir-callback related headers even though they are just providing a =
transit function and even though they are not assuming any =
responsibility for verification.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>In my other test cases, the destination phone rang =
even though this was supposed to be a =E2=80=9Cverification=E2=80=9D =
INVITE. This tells me, I think, that at least the first UA (X, in my =
explanation above) in the verification call path is non-RFC-complaint, =
and that downstream UA=E2=80=99s are either also non-compliant, or that =
the REQUIRE header got dropped along the =
way.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
am nervous about the extent to which deployed UA=E2=80=99s are =
non-RFC-compliant with respect to the REQUIRE header, and how that could =
undermine deployability of this solution. Maybe you intended that the =
solution only apply when A and B are directly connected and there are no =
intermediate providers. But I=E2=80=99m concerned that=E2=80=99s only a =
small fraction of =E2=80=9Creal world=E2=80=9D calls =
today.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>First =
let me say that is awesome you just went and tried this. I love real =
world data. Some of the version of Asterisk I have seen configured that =
way but sort of surprised if people are using ACME or Cisco SBCs that =
way. I certainly don=E2=80=99t have any desire to embarrass any =
particular SP about their SIP deployment but would you be willing to =
share what providers did this such that we might try and track down why =
they did it - that might help decide how much of an issue it =
is?&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
am interested in your thoughts on these items, and on getting me back on =
track if I=E2=80=99ve misunderstood aspects of the =
proposal.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I think you have understood the gist of the proposal =
and perhaps we have some tweaks to make. I agree with your high level =
points of there are intermediaries in the call we care about and that if =
any server along the chain is non compliant with require, it does not =
work well. Perhaps we can think of ways to mitigate that but not obvious =
how.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Now that we have 8824 out the door, I=E2=80=99m more =
trying out ideas to see what might work to help reduce SPAM and I share =
some of your concerns about this but not sure what=E2=80=99s better for =
deployment.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>However, any in band STIR solution is going to require =
the service providers to test and support it. I would not be surprised =
to find that any SBC configured to ignore the Require header is also =
pretty unlike to pass the Identity header. &nbsp;For a long time, I have =
seen many things blocked at IETF from by the =E2=80=9CSBC won=E2=80=99t =
support that=E2=80=9D argument but in this particular case it is a bit =
different. If some carrier has all of it customers getting an irritating =
call back call ever time they dial a new number, I=E2=80=99m sure the =
economics of customer satisfaction and retention will cause that carrier =
to change the configuration of their SBC to not ignore the Require =
header.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
am worried about this and the rest of STIR when the interconnect between =
the carriers is SS7.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>David<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-TW'>David =
Frankel</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:#6699CC;mso-fareast-language:Z=
H-TW'>Zip</span></b><b><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Georgia",serif;color:gray;mso-fareast-language:ZH-T=
W'>DX</span></b><b><sup>=C2=AE</sup></b><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-TW'> =
LLC</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-TW'>Monte Sereno, CA =
USA</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-TW'>Tel: 1-800-FRANKEL =
(1-800-372-6535)</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> stir &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org">stir-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; =
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jonathan Rosenberg<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March =
1, 2018 6:15 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org">stir@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> =
[stir] New draft =
draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Hey all - been a while =
:)<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Cullen and I wrote up a concept for using =
STIR with self-signed or domain based certs, and then handling number =
validation with an in-band callback. We think its a promising approach =
to accelerate STIR deployments, since it allows them to happen without =
the cert infrastructure being in place. <br><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00.txt">htt=
ps://www.ietf.org/id/draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00.txt</a><o:p></o:p><=
/p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Comments =
welcome. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>-Jonathan R.<br =
clear=3Dall><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br>-- <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D.<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net" =
target=3D"_blank">jdrosen@jdrosen.net</a><br><a =
href=3D"http://www.jdrosen.net/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.jdrosen.net</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>stir=
 mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org">stir@ietf.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/stir</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></body></html>
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From: "Gorman, Pierce A [CTO]" <Pierce.Gorman@sprint.com>
To: David Frankel <dfrankel@zipdx.com>, "'Cullen Jennings (fluffy)'" <fluffy@cisco.com>
CC: 'Jonathan Rosenberg' <jdrosen@jdrosen.net>, "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [stir] New draft draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00
Thread-Index: AQHTtJ3HPXW7S2T4SkqZXCS9zSPj0KPB1SJg
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/stir/3iKd8YOzX_9yMHFBBnjZzF8tSPA>
Subject: Re: [stir] New draft draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00
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From nobody Mon Mar  5 13:22:34 2018
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Subject: [stir] I-D Action: draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-01.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Secure Telephone Identity Revisited WG of the IETF.

        Title           : PASSporT SHAKEN Extension (SHAKEN)
        Authors         : Chris Wendt
                          Mary Barnes
	Filename        : draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-01.txt
	Pages           : 7
	Date            : 2018-03-05

Abstract:
   This document extends PASSporT, which is a token object that conveys
   cryptographically-signed information about the participants involved
   in communications, to include information defined as part of the
   SHAKEN specification from ATIS (Alliance for Telecommunications
   Industry Solutions) and the SIP Forum IP-NNI Joint Task Force.  These
   extensions provide a level of confidence in the correctness of the
   originating identity for a telephone network that has communications
   coming from both STIR participating originating communications as
   well as communications that does not include STIR information.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-01
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-01

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-01


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Mon Mar  5 13:30:21 2018
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I have uploaded a new version with minor changes including updating =
references to new STIR documents.

I have received a few comments privately that were incorporated in the =
last revision. =20

Please review, i think we should be getting close for this draft.

Thanks!

-Chris

> On Mar 5, 2018, at 4:22 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =
directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Secure Telephone Identity Revisited =
WG of the IETF.
>=20
>        Title           : PASSporT SHAKEN Extension (SHAKEN)
>        Authors         : Chris Wendt
>                          Mary Barnes
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-01.txt
> 	Pages           : 7
> 	Date            : 2018-03-05
>=20
> Abstract:
>   This document extends PASSporT, which is a token object that conveys
>   cryptographically-signed information about the participants involved
>   in communications, to include information defined as part of the
>   SHAKEN specification from ATIS (Alliance for Telecommunications
>   Industry Solutions) and the SIP Forum IP-NNI Joint Task Force.  =
These
>   extensions provide a level of confidence in the correctness of the
>   originating identity for a telephone network that has communications
>   coming from both STIR participating originating communications as
>   well as communications that does not include STIR information.
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken/
>=20
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-01
> =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-01
>=20
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-01
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> stir mailing list
> stir@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir


From nobody Mon Mar  5 15:12:44 2018
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Subject: [stir] I-D Action: draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-02.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Secure Telephone Identity Revisited WG of the IETF.

        Title           : PASSporT Extension for Diverted Calls
        Author          : Jon Peterson
	Filename        : draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-02.txt
	Pages           : 11
	Date            : 2018-03-05

Abstract:
   This document extends PASSporT, which conveys cryptographically-
   signed information about the people involved in personal
   communications, to include an indication that a call has been
   diverted from its original destination to a new one.  This
   information can greatly improve the decisions made by verification
   services in call forwarding scenarios.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-02
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-02

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-02


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Mon Mar  5 15:55:39 2018
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Subject: [stir] I-D Action: draft-ietf-stir-oob-02.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Secure Telephone Identity Revisited WG of the IETF.

        Title           : STIR Out-of-Band Architecture and Use Cases
        Authors         : Eric Rescorla
                          Jon Peterson
	Filename        : draft-ietf-stir-oob-02.txt
	Pages           : 23
	Date            : 2018-03-05

Abstract:
   The PASSporT format defines a token that can be carried by signaling
   protocols, including SIP, to cryptographically attest the identify of
   callers.  Not all telephone calls use Internet signaling protocols,
   however, and some calls use them for only part of their signaling
   path.  This document describes use cases that require the delivery of
   PASSporT objects outside of the signaling path, and defines
   architectures and semantics to provide this functionality.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-stir-oob/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-stir-oob-02
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-stir-oob-02

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-stir-oob-02


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Mon Mar  5 16:56:24 2018
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To: stir@ietf.org
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2018 19:56:07 -0500
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/stir/jWYR9vBlN9A1z0YHMw4Rx5kdCMQ>
Subject: [stir] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00.txt
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I could not stay away either.

> Begin forwarded message:
>=20
> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Subject: New Version Notification for =
draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00.txt
> Date: March 5, 2018 at 3:50:09 PM EST
> To: "Eric W. Burger" <eburger@standardstrack.com>, "Eric Burger" =
<eburger@standardstrack.com>
>=20
>=20
> A new version of I-D, draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Eric W. Burger and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>=20
> Name:		draft-burger-stir-iana-cert
> Revision:	00
> Title:		Registry for Country-Specific Secure Telephone =
Identity (STIR) Root Certificates
> Document date:	2018-03-05
> Group:		Individual Submission
> Pages:		13
> URL:            =
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00.txt
> Status:         =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burger-stir-iana-cert/
> Htmlized:       =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00
> Htmlized:       =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00
>=20
>=20
> Abstract:
>   This document defines an IANA registry that maps country codes to
>   secure telephone identity (STIR) root certificates authorized to
>   create signing certificates for telephone numbers under the =
authority
>   of a given country.  Some countries allow carriers to block
>   unsolicited, automatically generated nuisance calls commonly known =
as
>   'robocalls.'  The use of signed STIR tokens in the Session =
Initiation
>   Protocol (SIP) may be useful in such scenarios to provide positive
>   attestations as to call origin.  Legacy telephone numbering =
resources
>   are administrated by national policy.  Unlike the market-driven use
>   case of Web commerce, some nations may restrict the list of STIR =
root
>   certificate authorities acceptable for issuing signing certificates
>   for STIR tokens that provide attestations for their local legacy
>   telephone numbering resources.  The registry described in this
>   document enables call recipients in a first country to validate that
>   signaling it receives from a caller with a telephone number claiming
>   to be in a second country conforms to the second country's policy of
>   (1) having a limited list of STIR root certificate authorities (or
>   not) and (2) the certificate that produced the signature over the
>   signaling is signed by one of those authorized STIR root certificate
>   authorities.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat
>=20


--Apple-Mail=_D782F661-3ED0-47E7-9693-232D368AC473
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">I could not stay away either.<div class=3D""><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Begin =
forwarded message:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
-webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; =
color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">From: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
-webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; =
color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">New Version =
Notification for draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00.txt</b><br =
class=3D""></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Date: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">March 5, 2018 at 3:50:09 PM =
EST<br class=3D""></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">To: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">"Eric W. Burger" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:eburger@standardstrack.com" =
class=3D"">eburger@standardstrack.com</a>&gt;, "Eric Burger" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:eburger@standardstrack.com" =
class=3D"">eburger@standardstrack.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""></span></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D"">A new version of I-D, draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00.txt<br =
class=3D"">has been successfully submitted by Eric W. Burger and posted =
to the<br class=3D"">IETF repository.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Name:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>draft-burger-stir-iana-cert<br class=3D"">Revision:<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>00<br =
class=3D"">Title:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">=
	</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>Registry for Country-Specific Secure Telephone Identity (STIR) =
Root Certificates<br class=3D"">Document date:<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>2018-03-05<br class=3D"">Group:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Individual Submission<br =
class=3D"">Pages:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">=
	</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>13<br class=3D"">URL: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-0=
0.txt" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-burger-stir-iana-cer=
t-00.txt</a><br class=3D"">Status: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burger-stir-iana-cert/" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burger-stir-iana-cert/</=
a><br class=3D"">Htmlized: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00</a><=
br class=3D"">Htmlized: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-=
00" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-burger-stir-iana-ce=
rt-00</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Abstract:<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;This document defines an IANA registry that maps =
country codes to<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;secure telephone identity =
(STIR) root certificates authorized to<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;create =
signing certificates for telephone numbers under the authority<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;of a given country. &nbsp;Some countries allow =
carriers to block<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;unsolicited, automatically =
generated nuisance calls commonly known as<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;'robocalls.' &nbsp;The use of signed STIR tokens in the =
Session Initiation<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;Protocol (SIP) may be =
useful in such scenarios to provide positive<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;attestations as to call origin. &nbsp;Legacy telephone =
numbering resources<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;are administrated by =
national policy. &nbsp;Unlike the market-driven use<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;case of Web commerce, some nations may restrict the list of =
STIR root<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;certificate authorities acceptable =
for issuing signing certificates<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;for STIR =
tokens that provide attestations for their local legacy<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;telephone numbering resources. &nbsp;The registry described =
in this<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;document enables call recipients in a =
first country to validate that<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;signaling it =
receives from a caller with a telephone number claiming<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;to be in a second country conforms to the second country's =
policy of<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;(1) having a limited list of STIR =
root certificate authorities (or<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;not) and (2) =
the certificate that produced the signature over the<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;signaling is signed by one of those authorized STIR root =
certificate<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;authorities.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Please note that =
it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission<br =
class=3D"">until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org" class=3D"">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">The IETF Secretariat<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From nobody Mon Mar  5 22:15:44 2018
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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: Eric Burger <eburger@standardstrack.com>
CC: "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [stir] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00.txt
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Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2018 06:15:36 +0000
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References: <152028300904.31710.8973954292655207142.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>,  <CA40963C-8447-43B3-9FEE-D1B1660F50E5@standardstrack.com>
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Subject: Re: [stir] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00.txt
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Hi Eric,

The IANA policy is Expert Review. What exactly is the ER supposed to do in =
this case?

Regards,

Christer

Sent from my iPhone

On 6 Mar 2018, at 2.56, Eric Burger <eburger@standardstrack.com<mailto:ebur=
ger@standardstrack.com>> wrote:

I could not stay away either.

Begin forwarded message:

From: internet-drafts@ietf.org<mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00.txt
Date: March 5, 2018 at 3:50:09 PM EST
To: "Eric W. Burger" <eburger@standardstrack.com<mailto:eburger@standardstr=
ack.com>>, "Eric Burger" <eburger@standardstrack.com<mailto:eburger@standar=
dstrack.com>>


A new version of I-D, draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Eric W. Burger and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name: draft-burger-stir-iana-cert
Revision: 00
Title: Registry for Country-Specific Secure Telephone Identity (STIR) Root =
Certificates
Document date: 2018-03-05
Group: Individual Submission
Pages: 13
URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-burger-stir-iana=
-cert-00.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burger-stir-iana-cer=
t/
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00
Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-burger-stir-ian=
a-cert-00


Abstract:
  This document defines an IANA registry that maps country codes to
  secure telephone identity (STIR) root certificates authorized to
  create signing certificates for telephone numbers under the authority
  of a given country.  Some countries allow carriers to block
  unsolicited, automatically generated nuisance calls commonly known as
  'robocalls.'  The use of signed STIR tokens in the Session Initiation
  Protocol (SIP) may be useful in such scenarios to provide positive
  attestations as to call origin.  Legacy telephone numbering resources
  are administrated by national policy.  Unlike the market-driven use
  case of Web commerce, some nations may restrict the list of STIR root
  certificate authorities acceptable for issuing signing certificates
  for STIR tokens that provide attestations for their local legacy
  telephone numbering resources.  The registry described in this
  document enables call recipients in a first country to validate that
  signaling it receives from a caller with a telephone number claiming
  to be in a second country conforms to the second country's policy of
  (1) having a limited list of STIR root certificate authorities (or
  not) and (2) the certificate that produced the signature over the
  signaling is signed by one of those authorized STIR root certificate
  authorities.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org<http://=
tools.ietf.org>.

The IETF Secretariat


_______________________________________________
stir mailing list
stir@ietf.org<mailto:stir@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir

--_000_BFBE04EA17B94903B2DB25E577035033ericssoncom_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"=
>
</head>
<body dir=3D"auto">
Hi Eric,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The IANA policy is Expert Review. What exactly is the ER supposed to d=
o in this case?&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Christer<br>
<br>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>
On 6 Mar 2018, at 2.56, Eric Burger &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eburger@standards=
track.com">eburger@standardstrack.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>I could not stay away either.
<div class=3D"">
<div><br class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Begin forwarded message:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margi=
n-left: 0px;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica,=
 sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue,=
 Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.=
org" class=3D"">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
</span></div>
<div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margi=
n-left: 0px;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica,=
 sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue,=
 Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">New Version Notification =
for draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00.txt</b><br class=3D"">
</span></div>
<div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margi=
n-left: 0px;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica,=
 sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Date:
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue,=
 Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">March 5, 2018 at 3:50:09 PM EST<br clas=
s=3D"">
</span></div>
<div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margi=
n-left: 0px;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica,=
 sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue,=
 Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&quot;Eric W. Burger&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:eburger@standardstrack.com" class=3D"">eburger@standardstrack.co=
m</a>&gt;, &quot;Eric Burger&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eburger@standardst=
rack.com" class=3D"">eburger@standardstrack.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
</span></div>
<br class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
A new version of I-D, draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00.txt<br class=3D"">
has been successfully submitted by Eric W. Burger and posted to the<br clas=
s=3D"">
IETF repository.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Name:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"> </span><span=
 class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"></span>draft-burger-sti=
r-iana-cert<br class=3D"">
Revision:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"> </span>0=
0<br class=3D"">
Title:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"> </span><spa=
n class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"></span>Registry for Co=
untry-Specific Secure Telephone Identity (STIR) Root Certificates<br class=
=3D"">
Document date:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"> </s=
pan>2018-03-05<br class=3D"">
Group:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"> </span><spa=
n class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"></span>Individual Subm=
ission<br class=3D"">
Pages:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"> </span><spa=
n class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"></span>13<br class=3D"=
">
URL: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a h=
ref=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00.=
txt" class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-burger-stir-iana=
-cert-00.txt</a><br class=3D"">
Status: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://=
datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burger-stir-iana-cert/" class=3D"">https://d=
atatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burger-stir-iana-cert/</a><br class=3D"">
Htmlized: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf=
.org/html/draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00" class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org=
/html/draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00</a><br class=3D"">
Htmlized: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://datatracke=
r.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00" class=3D"">https://data=
tracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00</a><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Abstract:<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;This document defines an IANA registry that maps country codes =
to<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;secure telephone identity (STIR) root certificates authorized t=
o<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;create signing certificates for telephone numbers under the aut=
hority<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;of a given country. &nbsp;Some countries allow carriers to bloc=
k<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;unsolicited, automatically generated nuisance calls commonly kn=
own as<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;'robocalls.' &nbsp;The use of signed STIR tokens in the Session=
 Initiation<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;Protocol (SIP) may be useful in such scenarios to provide posit=
ive<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;attestations as to call origin. &nbsp;Legacy telephone numberin=
g resources<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;are administrated by national policy. &nbsp;Unlike the market-d=
riven use<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;case of Web commerce, some nations may restrict the list of STI=
R root<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;certificate authorities acceptable for issuing signing certific=
ates<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;for STIR tokens that provide attestations for their local legac=
y<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;telephone numbering resources. &nbsp;The registry described in =
this<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;document enables call recipients in a first country to validate=
 that<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;signaling it receives from a caller with a telephone number cla=
iming<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;to be in a second country conforms to the second country's poli=
cy of<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;(1) having a limited list of STIR root certificate authorities =
(or<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;not) and (2) the certificate that produced the signature over t=
he<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;signaling is signed by one of those authorized STIR root certif=
icate<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;authorities.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n<br class=3D"">
until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"http://tool=
s.ietf.org" class=3D"">
tools.ietf.org</a>.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
The IETF Secretariat<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br>
<span>stir mailing list</span><br>
<span><a href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org">stir@ietf.org</a></span><br>
<span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir">https://www.ie=
tf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir</a></span><br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_BFBE04EA17B94903B2DB25E577035033ericssoncom_--


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From: "Peterson, Jon" <jon.peterson@team.neustar>
To: "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: drafts for london
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--_000_D6C408E71F8D99jonpetersonneustarbiz_
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Well, I can tell STIR is going to be interesting this time.

A few bits of old business, there are new versions of the divert and oob dr=
afts:

https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-02.txt
https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-stir-oob-02.txt

These reflect the changes we last discussed, including stronger guidance on=
 nesting for divert, and some further integration with History-Info. That o=
ne continues to have a lot of external attention, and it would be nice to w=
rap it up. Let's talk about whether or not large nested Identity headers wi=
ll trip up implementations too badly.

For stir-oob, there is now some more generic authentication/verification se=
rvice behavior for non-SIP STIR applications, and even an initial mock-up o=
f a REST interface for storing PASSporTS at a CPS.

I also wanted to point to the continuing STIR work in ACME, which we are in=
 the middle of reorganizing, but which will eventually lead us to a short-l=
ived certs document here. I bumped that draft slightly to keep it on the ra=
dar.

https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-peterson-stir-certificates-shortlived-02.txt

Finally, Chris and I have become increasingly preoccupied with the reuse of=
 STIR for identifying the called party as well as the calling party. We hav=
e some initial thoughts about what the problem statement for that would be =
in this new draft:

https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-peterson-stir-rfc4916-update-00.txt

See you all in London!

Jon Peterson
NeuStar, Inc.




--_000_D6C408E71F8D99jonpetersonneustarbiz_
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<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"=
>
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Well, I can tell STIR is going to be interesting this time.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>A few bits of old business, there are new versions of the divert and o=
ob drafts:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-02.=
txt">https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-02.txt</a></di=
v>
<div><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-stir-oob-02.txt">https:/=
/www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-stir-oob-02.txt</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>These reflect the changes we last discussed, including stronger guidan=
ce on nesting for divert, and some further integration with History-Info. T=
hat one continues to have a lot of external attention, and it would be nice=
 to wrap it up. Let's talk about
 whether or not large nested Identity headers will trip up implementations =
too badly.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For stir-oob, there is now some more generic authentication/verificati=
on service behavior for non-SIP STIR applications, and even an initial mock=
-up of a REST interface for storing PASSporTS at a CPS.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I also wanted to point to the continuing STIR work in ACME, which we a=
re in the middle of reorganizing, but which will eventually lead us to a sh=
ort-lived certs document here. I bumped that draft slightly to keep it on t=
he radar.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-peterson-stir-certificates-sh=
ortlived-02.txt">https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-peterson-stir-certificates-s=
hortlived-02.txt</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Finally, Chris and I have become increasingly preoccupied with the reu=
se of STIR for identifying the called party as well as the calling party. W=
e have some initial thoughts about what the problem statement for that woul=
d be in this new draft:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-peterson-stir-rfc4916-update-=
00.txt">https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-peterson-stir-rfc4916-update-00.txt</=
a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>See you all in London!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Jon Peterson</div>
<div>NeuStar, Inc.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_D6C408E71F8D99jonpetersonneustarbiz_--


From nobody Tue Mar  6 13:56:00 2018
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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: "Peterson, Jon" <jon.peterson@team.neustar>, "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Editorial comments on sections 3 and 4 of draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-02 [was: drafts for london]
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Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2018 21:55:52 +0000
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Subject: [stir] Editorial comments on sections 3 and 4 of draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-02 [was: drafts for london]
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Hi Jon,

I see that the new version covers some of the issues that I raised previous=
ly. Thank you for that!

I did take a look at the new version (mostly focusing on Sections 3 and 4),=
 and I have some editorial comments, mostly related to inconsistent termino=
logy. But, there is also a couple of comments where I think we need more cl=
arification.

(You may call some of my comments nit picking, but I personally think that =
fixing them would make the document easier to read)

---

Q1:

Throughout the document, you use different terminology for the claims. You =
at least use "claim", "array", "field".

I suggest to always use "claim", i.e., "div" claim, "dest" claim etc.

The fact that a claim might be an array is an encoding issue.


A few examples of where I identified this problem:

"occupy the "div" field in the new PASSporT."

(s/field/claim)


"...the original identifier for the called party in the "dest" array will b=
ecome the "div" claim in the new PASSporT.  If the "dest" array of the orig=
inal PASSporT contains multiple identifiers,..."

(s/array/claim)


"becomes the value of the "dest" array of the new PASSporT."

(s/array/claim)

---

Q2:

Throughout the document, you talk about "div" PASSporT, "div" PASSporT type=
, etc.

Please don't use the same name for the claim and the PASSPorT. Instead say =
something like "to the PASSporT carrying the "div" claim", "the diversion P=
ASSporT", or something like that.

---

Q3:

Throughout the document, the text talks about "original PASSPorT".

Since there might be (at least in theory) multiple incoming PASSPorTs you n=
eed to define what "original" means.

---

Q4:

The text in Section 3 says:

"A PASSporT claims object containing "div""

I don't think we need to say "claims object". It is enough to just talk abo=
ut PASSPorT (you do that elsewhere).

---

Q5:

The text in Section 3 says:

"These new PASSporT generated by retargeting entities MUST include the "div=
" PASSporT type,.."

Please explicitly indicate which header field includes the "div" type (i.e.=
, the "ppt")

---

Q6:

The text in Section 3 says:

   "...for all PASSporTs using the "div" type the
   signature MUST be created with a credential with authority over the
   identity present in the "div" claim.  So for the example above, where
   the original "dest" is "12155551213", the signer of the new PASSporT
   object MUST have authority over that telephone number,..."

I think the text can be clarified in the following way:

   "...for all PASSporTs using the "div" type the
   signature MUST be created with a credential with authority over the
   identity present in the "div" claim, which means that the signer MUST
   have authority over the "dest" claim in the original PASSporT."

Because, I think this is a generic normative statement, not just a descript=
ion of an example.
---

Q7:

The text in Section 4.1. says:

   "An authentication service only adds an Identity header field
   containing the "div" PASSporT type to an SIP request that already
   contains at least one Identity header field; it MUST NOT add a "div"
   request to an INVITE that contains no other Identity headers fields."

Is there a reason why you first say "SIP request" and then "INVITE"? Can't =
the "it MUST NOT add..." part be removed?

---

Q8:

In Section 4, when the new PASSPorT has been created and added to a SIP mes=
sage, we need to clarify where the associated Identity header field is loca=
ted in relation to other Identity header fields.

Alt A:

Identity: incoming_PASSPorT
Identity: div_PASSPorT

Alt B:

Identity: div_PASSPorT
Identity: incoming_PASSPorT

Regards,

Christer


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Hi Jon,<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I see that=
 the new version covers some of the issues that I raised previously. Thank =
you for that!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I did take=
 a look at the new version (mostly focusing on Sections 3 and 4), and I hav=
e some editorial comments, mostly related to inconsistent
 terminology. But, there is also a couple of comments where I think we need=
 more clarification.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">(You may c=
all some of my comments nit picking, but I personally think that fixing the=
m would make the document easier to read)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">---<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Q1:<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Throughout=
 the document, you use different terminology for the claims. You at least u=
se &#8220;claim&#8221;, &#8220;array&#8221;, &#8220;field&#8221;.<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I suggest =
to always use &#8220;claim&#8221;, i.e., &#8220;div&#8221; claim, &#8220;de=
st&#8221; claim etc.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">The fact t=
hat a claim might be an array is an encoding issue.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">A few exam=
ples of where I identified this problem:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">&#8220;occ=
upy the &quot;div&quot; field in the new PASSporT.&#8221;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">(s/field/c=
laim)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">&#8220;&#8=
230;the original identifier for the called party in the &quot;dest&quot; ar=
ray will become the &quot;div&quot; claim in the new PASSporT.&nbsp; If the=
 &quot;dest&quot;
 array of the original PASSporT contains multiple identifiers,&#8230;&#8221=
;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">(s/array/c=
laim)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">&#8220;bec=
omes the value of the &quot;dest&quot; array of the new PASSporT.&#8221;<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">(s/array/c=
laim)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">---<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Q2:<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Throughout=
 the document, you talk about &#8220;div&#8221; PASSporT, &#8220;div&#8221;=
 PASSporT type, etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Please don=
&#8217;t use the same name for the claim and the PASSPorT. Instead say some=
thing like &#8220;to the PASSporT carrying the &#8220;div&#8221; claim&#822=
1;,
 &#8220;the diversion PASSporT&#8221;, or something like that.<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">---<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Q3:<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Throughout=
 the document, the text talks about &#8220;original PASSPorT&#8221;.<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Since ther=
e might be (at least in theory) multiple incoming PASSPorTs you need to def=
ine what &#8220;original&#8221; means.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">---<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Q4:<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">The text i=
n Section 3 says:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">&#8220;A P=
ASSporT claims object containing &quot;div&quot;&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I don&#821=
7;t think we need to say &#8220;claims object&#8221;. It is enough to just =
talk about PASSPorT (you do that elsewhere).
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">---<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Q5:<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">The text i=
n Section 3 says:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">&#8220;The=
se new PASSporT generated by retargeting entities MUST include the &quot;di=
v&quot; PASSporT type,..&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Please exp=
licitly indicate which header field includes the &#8220;div&#8221; type (i.=
e., the &#8220;ppt&#8221;)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">---<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Q6:<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">The text i=
n Section 3 says:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">&nbsp;&nbs=
p; &#8220;&#8230;for all PASSporTs using the &quot;div&quot; type the<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">&nbsp;&nbs=
p; signature MUST be created with a credential with authority over the<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">&nbsp;&nbs=
p; identity present in the &quot;div&quot; claim.&nbsp; So for the example =
above, where<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">&nbsp;&nbs=
p; the original &quot;dest&quot; is &quot;12155551213&quot;, the signer of =
the new PASSporT<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">&nbsp;&nbs=
p; object MUST have authority over that telephone number,&#8230;&#8221;<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I think th=
e text can be clarified in the following way:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">&nbsp;&nbs=
p; &#8220;&#8230;for all PASSporTs using the &quot;div&quot; type the<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">&nbsp;&nbs=
p; signature MUST be created with a credential with authority over the<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">&nbsp;&nbs=
p; identity present in the &quot;div&quot; claim, which means that the sign=
er MUST<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">&nbsp;&nbs=
p; have authority over the &#8220;dest&#8221; claim in the original PASSpor=
T.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Because, I=
 think this is a generic normative statement, not just a description of an =
example.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">---<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Q7:<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">The text i=
n Section 4.1. says:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas=
;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; &#8220;An authentication service only adds an Id=
entity header field<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas=
;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; containing the &quot;div&quot; PASSporT type to =
an SIP request that already<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas=
;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; contains at least one Identity header field; it =
MUST NOT add a &quot;div&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas=
;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; request to an INVITE that contains no other Iden=
tity headers fields.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas=
;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Is there a=
 reason why you first say &#8220;SIP request&#8221; and then &#8220;INVITE&=
#8221;? Can&#8217;t the &#8220;it MUST NOT add&#8230;&#8221; part be remove=
d?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">---<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Q8:<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">In Section=
 4, when the new PASSPorT has been created and added to a SIP message, we n=
eed to clarify where the associated Identity header
 field is located in relation to other Identity header fields.<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Alt A:<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Identity: =
incoming_PASSPorT<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Identity: =
div_PASSPorT<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Alt B:<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Identity: =
div_PASSPorT<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Identity: =
incoming_PASSPorT<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Regards,<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Christer<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: "Peterson, Jon" <jon.peterson@team.neustar>, "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Why mandate "orig" claim if not modified?
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Subject: [stir] Why mandate "orig" claim if not modified?
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--_000_D6C56D522C3B5christerholmbergericssoncom_
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Hi,

A generic question, but that came to my mind when reading the divert draft.

Why does one have to include the =93orig=94 claim in the divert PASSporT? I=
t is already present in the =93original=94 PASSporT, and it isn=92t modifie=
d.

There is probably a good reason, but I think it would be good to document i=
t (or, if documented elsewhere, reference it).

Regards,

Christer




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<div>Hi,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>A generic question, but that came to my mind when reading the divert d=
raft.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Why does one have to include the =93orig=94 claim in the divert PASSpo=
rT? It is already present in the =93original=94 PASSporT, and it isn=92t mo=
dified.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There is probably a good reason, but I think it would be good to docum=
ent it (or, if documented elsewhere, reference it).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Christer</div>
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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: "Peterson, Jon" <jon.peterson@team.neustar>, "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [stir] drafts for london
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--_000_D6C577462C3E7christerholmbergericssoncom_
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Hi Jon,

> Finally, Chris and I have become increasingly preoccupied with the reuse =
of STIR for identifying the called party as well as the calling party.
> We have some initial thoughts about what the problem statement for that w=
ould be in this new draft:
>
> https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-peterson-stir-rfc4916-update-00.txt

So, the idea would be to use a PASSporT in the Identity header field of the=
 UPDATE request?

Regards,

Christer




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<div>Hi Jon,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div>
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line=
-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-famil=
y: Calibri, sans-serif;">
<div>&gt; Finally, Chris and I have become increasingly preoccupied with th=
e reuse of STIR for identifying the called party as well as the calling par=
ty.
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div>&gt; We have some initial thoughts about what the problem statement fo=
r that would be in this new draft:</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line=
-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-famil=
y: Calibri, sans-serif;">
<div>&gt;</div>
<div>&gt;&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-peterson-stir-rfc49=
16-update-00.txt">https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-peterson-stir-rfc4916-updat=
e-00.txt</a></div>
</div>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So, the idea would be to use a PASSporT in the Identity header field o=
f the UPDATE request?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Christer</div>
<div><br>
</div>
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From: "Peterson, Jon" <jon.peterson@team.neustar>
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Basically yes.

Jon Peterson
Neustar, Inc.

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 7, 2018, at 1:07 AM, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.c=
om<mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>> wrote:

Hi Jon,

> Finally, Chris and I have become increasingly preoccupied with the reuse =
of STIR for identifying the called party as well as the calling party.
> We have some initial thoughts about what the problem statement for that w=
ould be in this new draft:
>
> https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-peterson-stir-rfc4916-update-00.txt<https:/=
/urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_id_draft-2Dpet=
erson-2Dstir-2Drfc4916-2Dupdate-2D00.txt&d=3DDwMFAg&c=3DMOptNlVtIETeDALC_lU=
Lrw&r=3DdQ51tLfoGuuFjanmfeKC0weXHNMl9xZnnsIiwRd6IgY&m=3DrKtS1GVJldxYssEQcFr=
p6s6ULbrrlUp5M4XW3BOboIU&s=3D7bDGSi_k6g47DPS8T374zpkCnnZX5nTZHDsMaObuZRg&e=
=3D>

So, the idea would be to use a PASSporT in the Identity header field of the=
 UPDATE request?

Regards,

Christer




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Basically yes.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Jon Peterson</div>
<div>Neustar, Inc.<br>
<br>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Sent from my iPad</div>
<div><br>
On Mar 7, 2018, at 1:07 AM, Christer Holmberg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christe=
r.holmberg@ericsson.com">christer.holmberg@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<div>Hi Jon,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div>
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line=
-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-famil=
y: Calibri, sans-serif;">
<div>&gt; Finally, Chris and I have become increasingly preoccupied with th=
e reuse of STIR for identifying the called party as well as the calling par=
ty.
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div>&gt; We have some initial thoughts about what the problem statement fo=
r that would be in this new draft:</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line=
-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-famil=
y: Calibri, sans-serif;">
<div>&gt;</div>
<div>&gt;&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttp=
s-3A__www.ietf.org_id_draft-2Dpeterson-2Dstir-2Drfc4916-2Dupdate-2D00.txt&a=
mp;d=3DDwMFAg&amp;c=3DMOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&amp;r=3DdQ51tLfoGuuFjanmfeKC0w=
eXHNMl9xZnnsIiwRd6IgY&amp;m=3DrKtS1GVJldxYssEQcFrp6s6ULbrrlUp5M4XW3BOboIU&a=
mp;s=3D7bDGSi_k6g47DPS8T374zpkCnnZX5nTZHDsMaObuZRg&amp;e=3D">https://www.ie=
tf.org/id/draft-peterson-stir-rfc4916-update-00.txt</a></div>
</div>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So, the idea would be to use a PASSporT in the Identity header field o=
f the UPDATE request?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Christer</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line=
-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-famil=
y: Calibri, sans-serif;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</span></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_53E62562BA3244DE8EF83830353F39CCteamneustar_--


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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: draft-passport-divert: "opt" extension
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Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2018 08:05:41 +0000
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Subject: [stir] draft-passport-divert: "opt" extension
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Hi,

draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert talks about usage of the =93opt=94 extensio=
n for nesting.

Where is the =93opt" extension defined?

Regards,

Christer



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<div>Hi,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style=3D"orphans: 2; white-space: pre-wrap; widows: 2;">draft-ie=
tf-stir-passport-divert t</span>alks about usage of the =93opt=94 extension=
 for nesting.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Where is the =93opt&quot; extension defined?&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Christer</div>
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</div>
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From: Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca>
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Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2018 05:41:01 -0700
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Subject: Re: [stir] SIPCoin - a new cryptocurrency for stopping robocalls
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So as a super casual analysis of the current draft,=20

Lets say we need order of magnitude 10 cents to stop spam, that equates =
to something like 1KW, which equates to something like 1Kg of CO2. Each =
of of those steps is only an order go magnitude estimate so this cab be =
way out but you get the idea. So we would have a one time, assuming =
major carriers shared validation data,  ( or small number of times ) =
validation of the self signed cert and each validation would take about =
1 Kg CO2. That sounds really bad. But for comparisons sake, your flight =
to IETF is probably over 1000 Kg and it is not a one time event

But all that said, I don=E2=80=99t think we would actually go for with =
something as simple as pure proof of work based approach so I don=E2=80=99=
t think that is a realistic look at the power usage. There are a bunch =
of techniques that add to the complexity but greatly reduce the reliance =
on proof work and more move to things like proof of stake or more risk =
based approaches. Solutions like that could greatly reduce the power =
usage. Keep in mind reducing the amount of spam calls would reduce the =
power usage of the whole phone system.=20


> On Mar 3, 2018, at 5:06 PM, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com> wrote:
>=20
> One of the issues that has arisen in parallel with cryptocurrencies is =
a recognition of the exorbitant energy (and therefore environmental) =
costs they entail. I think this document probably requires a section =
addressing this aspect of the system, including any ways that it varies =
significantly from traditional cryptocurrencies in this regard.
>=20
> /a
>=20
> On 3/2/18 4:45 PM, Jonathan Rosenberg wrote:
>> Cullen and I have just submitted this:
>> https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-rosenberg-stir-sipcoin-00.txt =
<https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-rosenberg-stir-sipcoin-00.txt>
>>=20
>> which is a proposal for a new type of cyryptocurrency dedicated =
solely to preventing spam on the SIP-based phone network. It is designed =
to be fast, causing less than one second increases in call setup time. =
NOn-transferrable to avoid being a tool for fraud and avoid being tied =
to market whim; backed by public CAs with a new type of centralized =
ledger validation; trivially verifiable by receivers of calls. Also we =
suggest a technique for incremental deployment on the PSTN which has =
incremental benefits and economic benefits for each deployment phase. =
We've done some analysis on the economics to help motivate the solution.
>>=20
>> WHen combined with our previous draft, and some nice whitelisting =
thrown in as described in here, I think this is a very interested =
technique to put this robocalling plague to rest.
>>=20
>> I'm coming to London and looking forward to discussing.=20
>>=20
>> Comments are, of course, welcome.
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D.
>> jdrosen@jdrosen.net <mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net>
>> http://www.jdrosen.net <http://www.jdrosen.net/>
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> stir mailing list
>> stir@ietf.org <mailto:stir@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> stir mailing list
> stir@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir


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Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>So as a super casual analysis of the =
current draft,&nbsp;<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Lets say we need order of magnitude 10 cents to stop spam, =
that equates to something like 1KW, which equates to something like 1Kg =
of CO2. Each of of those steps is only an order go magnitude estimate so =
this cab be way out but you get the idea. So we would have a one time, =
assuming major carriers shared validation data, &nbsp;( or small number =
of times ) validation of the self signed cert and each validation would =
take about 1 Kg CO2. That sounds really bad. But for comparisons sake, =
your flight to IETF is probably over 1000 Kg and it is not a one time =
event</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">But all =
that said, I don=E2=80=99t think we would actually go for with something =
as simple as pure proof of work based approach so I don=E2=80=99t think =
that is a realistic look at the power usage. There are a bunch of =
techniques that add to the complexity but greatly reduce the reliance on =
proof work and more move to things like proof of stake or more risk =
based approaches. Solutions like that could greatly reduce the power =
usage. Keep in mind reducing the amount of spam calls would reduce the =
power usage of the whole phone system.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Mar 3, 2018, at 5:06 PM, Adam Roach &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:adam@nostrum.com" class=3D"">adam@nostrum.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D"">
 =20
  <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" class=3D"">
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">One of the issues that has arisen in
      parallel with cryptocurrencies is a recognition of the exorbitant
      energy (and therefore environmental) costs they entail. I think
      this document probably requires a section addressing this aspect
      of the system, including any ways that it varies significantly
      from traditional cryptocurrencies in this regard.<br class=3D"">
      <br class=3D"">
      /a<br class=3D"">
      <br class=3D"">
      On 3/2/18 4:45 PM, Jonathan Rosenberg wrote:<br class=3D"">
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite" =
cite=3D"mid:CA+23+fFUEESKoQXtoAwg6ySovUb5-Eiy98_wdukcLKQNOrcn3A@mail.gmail=
.com" class=3D"">
      <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">
        <div class=3D"">
          <div class=3D"">
            <div class=3D"">
              <div class=3D"">Cullen and I have just submitted this:<br =
class=3D"">
                <a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-rosenberg-stir-sipcoin-00.txt" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-rosenberg-stir-sipcoin-00.txt</a>=
<br class=3D"">
                <br class=3D"">
              </div>
              which is a proposal for a new type of cyryptocurrency
              dedicated solely to preventing spam on the SIP-based phone
              network. It is designed to be fast, causing less than one
              second increases in call setup time. NOn-transferrable to
              avoid being a tool for fraud and avoid being tied to
              market whim; backed by public CAs with a new type of
              centralized ledger validation; trivially verifiable by
              receivers of calls. Also we suggest a technique for
              incremental deployment on the PSTN which has incremental
              benefits and economic benefits for each deployment phase.
              We've done some analysis on the economics to help motivate
              the solution.<br class=3D"">
              <br class=3D"">
            </div>
            WHen combined with our previous draft, and some nice
            whitelisting thrown in as described in here, I think this is
            a very interested technique to put this robocalling plague
            to rest.<br class=3D"">
            <br class=3D"">
          </div>
          I'm coming to London and looking forward to discussing. <br =
class=3D"">
          <br class=3D"">
        </div>
        Comments are, of course, welcome.<br clear=3D"all" class=3D"">
        <div class=3D"">
          <div class=3D"">
            <div class=3D"">
              <div class=3D"">
                <div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
                  -- <br class=3D"">
                  <div class=3D"gmail_signature">
                    <div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Jonathan Rosenberg, =
Ph.D.<br class=3D"">
                      <a href=3D"mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net" =
target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true" =
class=3D"">jdrosen@jdrosen.net</a><br class=3D"">
                      <a href=3D"http://www.jdrosen.net/" =
target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true" =
class=3D"">http://www.jdrosen.net</a></div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br class=3D"">
      <fieldset class=3D"mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br class=3D"">
      <pre wrap=3D"" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________
stir mailing list
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" =
href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org">stir@ietf.org</a>
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir">https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/stir</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote><p class=3D""><br class=3D"">
    </p>
  </div>

_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">stir =
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">stir@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: "Peterson, Jon" <jon.peterson@team.neustar>
To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [stir] draft-passport-divert: "opt" extension
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Subject: Re: [stir] draft-passport-divert: "opt" extension
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There will be a slide about this in London - I'm a bit on the fence about i=
t at the moment, as there has been some talk about splitting this out into =
a separate document so other extensions to STIR might leverage it. If there=
 are concrete examples of that we can anticipate, of other extensions that =
might want nesting, then perhaps we should split it out. Otherwise, it shou=
ld be fine to let this be the document that specifies it. I don't think it =
requires a ton of specification: it's just a full-form PASSporT in a claim =
value.

Jon Peterson
Neustar, Inc.

From: stir <stir-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf =
of Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com<mailto:christer.holmbe=
rg@ericsson.com>>
Date: Thursday, March 8, 2018 at 12:05 AM
To: "stir@ietf.org<mailto:stir@ietf.org>" <stir@ietf.org<mailto:stir@ietf.o=
rg>>
Subject: [stir] draft-passport-divert: "opt" extension

Hi,

draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert talks about usage of the =93opt=94 extensio=
n for nesting.

Where is the =93opt" extension defined?

Regards,

Christer



--_000_D6C693B01FAAB7jonpetersonneustarbiz_
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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252">
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There will be a slide about this in London - I'm a bit on the fence ab=
out it at the moment, as there has been some talk about splitting this out =
into a separate document so other extensions to STIR might leverage it. If =
there are concrete examples of that
 we can anticipate, of other extensions that might want nesting, then perha=
ps we should split it out. Otherwise, it should be fine to let this be the =
document that specifies it. I don't think it requires a ton of specificatio=
n: it's just a full-form PASSporT
 in a claim value.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Jon Peterson</div>
<div>Neustar, Inc.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:b=
lack; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM:=
 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;=
 BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>stir &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:st=
ir-bounces@ietf.org">stir-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Christer Ho=
lmberg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com">christer.holmb=
erg@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Thursday, March 8, 2018 at 12=
:05 AM<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:stir@ie=
tf.org">stir@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org">stir@i=
etf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>[stir] draft-passport-dive=
rt: &quot;opt&quot; extension<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div>
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line=
-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-famil=
y: Calibri, sans-serif;">
<div>Hi,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style=3D"orphans: 2; white-space: pre-wrap; widows: 2;">draft-ie=
tf-stir-passport-divert t</span>alks about usage of the =93opt=94 extension=
 for nesting.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Where is the =93opt&quot; extension defined?&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Christer</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span>
</body>
</html>

--_000_D6C693B01FAAB7jonpetersonneustarbiz_--


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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: "Peterson, Jon" <jon.peterson@team.neustar>, "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [stir] draft-passport-divert: "opt" extension
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Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2018 15:40:44 +0000
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Subject: Re: [stir] draft-passport-divert: "opt" extension
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Hi,

>There will be a slide about this in London - I'm a bit on the fence about =
it at the moment, as >there has been some talk about splitting this out int=
o a separate document so other extensions >to STIR might leverage it. If th=
ere are concrete examples of that we can anticipate, of other >extensions t=
hat might want nesting, then perhaps we should split it out. Otherwise, it =
should be >fine to let this be the document that specifies it. I don't thin=
k it requires a ton of specification: >it's just a full-form PASSporT in a =
claim value.

My first reaction would be to define it in a separate document.

Another question: is there a reason why we need to indicate the previous de=
stination in the "div" claim? Isn't the previous destination seen in the "o=
riginal" PASSporT?

Something like this:

So, for an original PASSporT of the form:

      { "orig":{"tn":"12155551212"},
        "dest":{"tn":"12155551213"},
        "iat":1443208345 }

   If the retargeting entity is changing the target from 12155551213 to
   12155551214, the new PASSporT would look as follows:

      { "orig":{"tn":"12155551212"},
        "dest":{"tn":"12155551214"},
        "iat":1443208345 }

"ppt:div" indicates that this is diversion.

Regards,

Christer



Jon Peterson
Neustar, Inc.

From: stir <stir-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf =
of Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com<mailto:christer.holmbe=
rg@ericsson.com>>
Date: Thursday, March 8, 2018 at 12:05 AM
To: "stir@ietf.org<mailto:stir@ietf.org>" <stir@ietf.org<mailto:stir@ietf.o=
rg>>
Subject: [stir] draft-passport-divert: "opt" extension

Hi,

draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert talks about usage of the "opt" extension fo=
r nesting.

Where is the "opt" extension defined?

Regards,

Christer



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<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
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</head>
<body lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Hi,<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&gt;</span><span style=3D"font-size:1=
0.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">There will be=
 a slide about this in London - I'm a bit on the fence about
 it at the moment, as </span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&gt;</span><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">there h=
as been some talk about splitting this out into a separate
 document so other extensions </span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&gt;</span><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black=
">to STIR might leverage it. If there are concrete examples
 of that we can anticipate, of other </span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt=
;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&gt;</span><span=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color=
:black">extensions that might want nesting, then perhaps we
 should split it out. Otherwise, it should be </span><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&gt;</s=
pan><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-se=
rif;color:black">fine to let this be the document that specifies
 it. I don't think it requires a ton of specification: </span><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F49=
7D">&gt;</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&qu=
ot;,sans-serif;color:black">it's just a full-form PASSporT in
 a claim value.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">My first reaction would be to define =
it in a separate document.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Another question: is there a reason w=
hy we need to indicate the previous destination in the &#8220;div&#8221; cl=
aim? Isn&#8217;t the previous destination seen in the &#8220;original&#8221=
;
 PASSporT?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Something like this:<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">So, for an original PASSporT of the f=
orm:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; { &quo=
t;orig&quot;:{&quot;tn&quot;:&quot;12155551212&quot;},<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; &quot;dest&quot;:{&quot;tn&quot;:&quot;12155551213&quot;},<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; &quot;iat&quot;:1443208345 }<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp; If the retargeting entit=
y is changing the target from 12155551213 to<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp; 12155551214, the new PAS=
SporT would look as follows:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; { &quo=
t;orig&quot;:{&quot;tn&quot;:&quot;12155551212&quot;},<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; &quot;dest&quot;:{&quot;tn&quot;:&quot;12155551214&quot;},<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; &quot;iat&quot;:1443208345 }<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&#8220;ppt:div&#8221; indicates that =
this is diversion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Christer<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Jon Peterson<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Neustar, Inc.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,=
sans-serif;color:black">stir &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org">s=
tir-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Christer Holmberg &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com">christer.holmberg@ericsson.com</a>&g=
t;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, March 8, 2018 at 12:05 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org">stir@ietf.org</a>&quot; &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org">stir@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[stir] draft-passport-divert: &quot;opt&quot; extension<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #B5C4DF 4.5pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0cm" id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTR=
IBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert talks a=
bout usage of the &#8220;opt&#8221; extension for nesting.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Where is the &#8220;opt&quot; extension=
 defined?&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Christer<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>
To: Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca>, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>
CC: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@jdrosen.net>, "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [stir] SIPCoin - a new cryptocurrency for stopping robocalls
Thread-Index: AQHTsngsiUThBAYi1UetPuh1gxBlM6O/iB+AgAccL4D//99QgA==
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2018 15:44:02 +0000
Message-ID: <BC061133-34F1-4FF8-82A0-3AA97B902A05@akamai.com>
References: <CA+23+fFUEESKoQXtoAwg6ySovUb5-Eiy98_wdukcLKQNOrcn3A@mail.gmail.com> <64ca7065-a73d-ce53-d715-a5569823a3c2@nostrum.com> <9E1327D0-EEE7-4AFD-9E42-91A355683820@iii.ca>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/stir/4SYTUMY0p0YaZYpNumKqLqBVW4U>
Subject: Re: [stir] SIPCoin - a new cryptocurrency for stopping robocalls
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--_000_BC06113334F14FF882A03AA97B902A05akamaicom_--


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From: "Peterson, Jon" <jon.peterson@team.neustar>
To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Editorial comments on sections 3 and 4 of draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-02 [was: drafts for london]
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Subject: Re: [stir] Editorial comments on sections 3 and 4 of draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-02 [was: drafts for london]
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--_000_D6C6958B1FAAE7jonpetersonneustarbiz_
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Thanks for the notes Christer, this is getting down to the level of detaile=
d review that we need.

Q1:

Throughout the document, you use different terminology for the claims. You =
at least use =93claim=94, =93array=94, =93field=94.

I suggest to always use =93claim=94, i.e., =93div=94 claim, =93dest=94 clai=
m etc.

The fact that a claim might be an array is an encoding issue.

I do kind of like reminding people that the contents of "dest" are an array=
. "field" I agree isn't very helpful though. There may still be a couple ti=
mes in the document where I might want to continue referring to "dest" as a=
n array. I'll try to keep that to a minimum.

 Q2:

Throughout the document, you talk about =93div=94 PASSporT, =93div=94 PASSp=
orT type, etc.

Please don=92t use the same name for the claim and the PASSPorT. Instead sa=
y something like =93to the PASSporT carrying the =93div=94 claim=94, =93the=
 diversion PASSporT=94, or something like that.

I can do that: saying "'div' claim" and "diversion PASSporT."

Q3:

Throughout the document, the text talks about =93original PASSPorT=94.

Since there might be (at least in theory) multiple incoming PASSPorTs you n=
eed to define what =93original=94 means.

Definitely the language needs to take into account that there can be multip=
le "original" PASSporTs. But I hesitate to just replace "original" with a s=
ynonym like "incoming." I'd like the language here to be generic enough to =
apply to in-band and out-of-band cases, so I don't want to define in terms =
like "found in the INVITE" or whatever. Terminology is tough here, I'll try=
 to fix the language here up a bit.

 Q4:

The text in Section 3 says:

=93A PASSporT claims object containing "div"=94

I don=92t think we need to say =93claims object=94. It is enough to just ta=
lk about PASSPorT (you do that elsewhere).

I do think it is useful sometimes to distinguish between the header and the=
 claims, but I can avoid the specific construction "claims object" if peopl=
e think it is confusing. "JOSE header" and "JWT claims set" seem to be the =
terms used in RFC7519.

 Q5:

The text in Section 3 says:

=93These new PASSporT generated by retargeting entities MUST include the "d=
iv" PASSporT type,..=94

Please explicitly indicate which header field includes the =93div=94 type (=
i.e., the =93ppt=94)

While I don't think this is confusing in the text, no harm in saying that e=
xplicitly.

 Q6:

The text in Section 3 says:

   =93=85for all PASSporTs using the "div" type the
   signature MUST be created with a credential with authority over the
   identity present in the "div" claim.  So for the example above, where
   the original "dest" is "12155551213", the signer of the new PASSporT
   object MUST have authority over that telephone number,=85=94

I think the text can be clarified in the following way:

   =93=85for all PASSporTs using the "div" type the
   signature MUST be created with a credential with authority over the
   identity present in the "div" claim, which means that the signer MUST
   have authority over the =93dest=94 claim in the original PASSporT.=94

Because, I think this is a generic normative statement, not just a descript=
ion of an example.

Agreed it is a blunder to have a normative statement in an example. I think=
 we still do want an example and a normative statement, I'll separate them =
out.

Q7:

The text in Section 4.1. says:

   =93An authentication service only adds an Identity header field
   containing the "div" PASSporT type to an SIP request that already
   contains at least one Identity header field; it MUST NOT add a "div"
   request to an INVITE that contains no other Identity headers fields.=94

Is there a reason why you first say =93SIP request=94 and then =93INVITE=94=
? Can=92t the =93it MUST NOT add=85=94 part be removed?

Agreed that "INVITE" there should be the more generic "request." The previo=
us statement is not normative, though, so I'd hesitate to remove the normat=
ive statement entirely.

Q8:

In Section 4, when the new PASSPorT has been created and added to a SIP mes=
sage, we need to clarify where the associated Identity header field is loca=
ted in relation to other Identity header fields.

Alt A:

Identity: incoming_PASSPorT
Identity: div_PASSPorT

Alt B:

Identity: div_PASSPorT
Identity: incoming_PASSPorT

Hmm. Do we think that intermediaries will always preserve the order of thes=
e headers? I guess we could order them in the hopes that they will. But aga=
in, I think we should provide a means that lets verification services look =
at the PASSporTs associated with a request and figure out how they are rela=
ted. That discussion is how we ended up with nesting in the first place. Ri=
ght now we only RECOMMEND that implementations use nesting for in-band, unt=
il we get some more input on the header size question, but we need to do so=
mething here to make it clear how PASSporTs are ordered. Maybe "iat" helps?=
 A few possibilities.

Thanks!

Jon Peterson
Neustar, Inc.

--_000_D6C6958B1FAAE7jonpetersonneustarbiz_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-ID: <0B977A8C927AC842836C8AA11D008AE9@neustar.biz>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252">
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks for the notes Christer, this is getting down to the level of de=
tailed review that we need.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micro=
soft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" x=
mlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:/=
/www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family:=
 Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Q1:</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Throughout=
 the document, you use different terminology for the claims. You at least u=
se =93claim=94, =93array=94, =93field=94.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I suggest =
to always use =93claim=94, i.e., =93div=94 claim, =93dest=94 claim etc.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">The fact t=
hat a claim might be an array is an encoding issue.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I do kind of like reminding people that the contents of &quot;dest&quo=
t; are an array. &quot;field&quot; I agree isn't very helpful though. There=
 may still be a couple times in the document where I might want to continue=
 referring to &quot;dest&quot; as an array. I'll try to keep that
 to a minimum.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micro=
soft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" x=
mlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:/=
/www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri,=
 sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Q2:</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Throughout=
 the document, you talk about =93div=94 PASSporT, =93div=94 PASSporT type, =
etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Please don=
=92t use the same name for the claim and the PASSPorT. Instead say somethin=
g like =93to the PASSporT carrying the =93div=94 claim=94,
 =93the diversion PASSporT=94, or something like that.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I can do that: saying &quot;'div' claim&quot; and &quot;diversion PASS=
porT.&quot;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micro=
soft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" x=
mlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:/=
/www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family:=
 Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Q3:</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Throughout=
 the document, the text talks about =93original PASSPorT=94.<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Since ther=
e might be (at least in theory) multiple incoming PASSPorTs you need to def=
ine what =93original=94 means.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Definitely the language needs to take into account that there can be m=
ultiple &quot;original&quot; PASSporTs. But I hesitate to just replace &quo=
t;original&quot; with a synonym like &quot;incoming.&quot; I'd like the lan=
guage here to be generic enough to apply to in-band and out-of-band
 cases, so I don't want to define in terms like &quot;found in the INVITE&q=
uot; or whatever. Terminology is tough here, I'll try to fix the language h=
ere up a bit.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micro=
soft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" x=
mlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:/=
/www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri,=
 sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Q4:</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">The text i=
n Section 3 says:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">=93A PASSp=
orT claims object containing &quot;div&quot;=94<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I don=92t =
think we need to say =93claims object=94. It is enough to just talk about P=
ASSPorT (you do that elsewhere).</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I do think it is useful sometimes to distinguish between the header an=
d the claims, but I can avoid the specific construction &quot;claims object=
&quot; if people think it is confusing. &quot;JOSE header&quot; and &quot;J=
WT claims set&quot; seem to be the terms used in RFC7519.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micro=
soft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" x=
mlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:/=
/www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri,=
 sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Q5:</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">The text i=
n Section 3 says:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">=93These n=
ew PASSporT generated by retargeting entities MUST include the &quot;div&qu=
ot; PASSporT type,..=94<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Please exp=
licitly indicate which header field includes the =93div=94 type (i.e., the =
=93ppt=94)</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>While I don't think this is confusing in the text, no harm in saying t=
hat explicitly.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micro=
soft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" x=
mlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:/=
/www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri,=
 sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Q6:</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">The text i=
n Section 3 says:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">&nbsp;&nbs=
p; =93=85for all PASSporTs using the &quot;div&quot; type the<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">&nbsp;&nbs=
p; signature MUST be created with a credential with authority over the<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">&nbsp;&nbs=
p; identity present in the &quot;div&quot; claim.&nbsp; So for the example =
above, where<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">&nbsp;&nbs=
p; the original &quot;dest&quot; is &quot;12155551213&quot;, the signer of =
the new PASSporT<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">&nbsp;&nbs=
p; object MUST have authority over that telephone number,=85=94<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">I think th=
e text can be clarified in the following way:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">&nbsp;&nbs=
p; =93=85for all PASSporTs using the &quot;div&quot; type the<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">&nbsp;&nbs=
p; signature MUST be created with a credential with authority over the<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">&nbsp;&nbs=
p; identity present in the &quot;div&quot; claim, which means that the sign=
er MUST<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">&nbsp;&nbs=
p; have authority over the =93dest=94 claim in the original PASSporT.=94<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Because, I=
 think this is a generic normative statement, not just a description of an =
example.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Agreed it is a blunder to have a normative statement in an example. I =
think we still do want an example and a normative statement, I'll separate =
them out.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micro=
soft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" x=
mlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:/=
/www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family:=
 Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Q7:</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">The text i=
n Section 4.1. says:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas=
;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; =93An authentication service only adds an Identi=
ty header field<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas=
;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; containing the &quot;div&quot; PASSporT type to =
an SIP request that already<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas=
;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; contains at least one Identity header field; it =
MUST NOT add a &quot;div&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas=
;color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; request to an INVITE that contains no other Iden=
tity headers fields.=94<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas=
;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Is there a=
 reason why you first say =93SIP request=94 and then =93INVITE=94? Can=92t =
the =93it MUST NOT add=85=94 part be removed?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Agreed that &quot;INVITE&quot; there should be the more generic &quot;=
request.&quot; The previous statement is not normative, though, so I'd hesi=
tate to remove the normative statement entirely.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:=
 #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">
<div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micro=
soft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" x=
mlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:/=
/www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family:=
 Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">Q8:</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">In Section=
 4, when the new PASSPorT has been created and added to a SIP message, we n=
eed to clarify where the associated Identity header
 field is located in relation to other Identity header fields.<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Alt A:<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Identity: =
incoming_PASSPorT<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Identity: =
div_PASSPorT<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Alt B:<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Identity: =
div_PASSPorT<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Identity: =
incoming_PASSPorT</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family=
: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Hmm. Do we think that intermediaries will always preserve the order of=
 these headers? I guess we could order them in the hopes that they will. Bu=
t again, I think we should provide a means that lets verification services =
look at the PASSporTs associated
 with a request and figure out how they are related. That discussion is how=
 we ended up with nesting in the first place. Right now we only RECOMMEND t=
hat implementations use nesting for in-band, until we get some more input o=
n the header size question, but
 we need to do something here to make it clear how PASSporTs are ordered. M=
aybe &quot;iat&quot; helps? A few possibilities.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Jon Peterson</div>
<div>Neustar, Inc.</div>
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--_000_D6C6958B1FAAE7jonpetersonneustarbiz_--


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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: "Peterson, Jon" <jon.peterson@team.neustar>, "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Editorial comments on sections 3 and 4 of draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-02 [was: drafts for london]
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Subject: Re: [stir] Editorial comments on sections 3 and 4 of draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-02 [was: drafts for london]
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Hi Jon,

Please see inline.

Q1:
=A0
>>Throughout the document, you use different terminology for the claims. Yo=
u at least use "claim", "array", "field".
>>=A0
>>I suggest to always use "claim", i.e., "div" claim, "dest" claim etc.=20
=A0>>
>>The fact that a claim might be an array is an encoding issue.
>
> I do kind of like reminding people that the contents of "dest" are an arr=
ay. "field" I agree isn't very helpful though. There=20
> may still be a couple times in the document where I might want to continu=
e referring to "dest" as an array. I'll try to keep
> that to a minimum.

My suggestion would be to use "dest" claim, but somewhere point out that it=
 is an array.

---

Q2:
=A0
>> Throughout the document, you talk about "div" PASSporT, "div" PASSporT t=
ype, etc.
>>=A0
>> Please don't use the same name for the claim and the PASSPorT. Instead s=
ay something like "to the PASSporT=20
>> carrying the "div" claim", "the diversion PASSporT", or something like t=
hat.
>
> I can do that: saying "'div' claim" and "diversion PASSporT."

Sounds good :)

---

Q3:
=A0
>> Throughout the document, the text talks about "original PASSPorT".
>>=A0
>> Since there might be (at least in theory) multiple incoming PASSPorTs yo=
u need to define what "original" means.
>
> Definitely the language needs to take into account that there can be mult=
iple "original" PASSporTs. But I hesitate to just=20
> replace "original" with a synonym like "incoming." I'd like the language =
here to be generic enough to apply to in-band=20
> and out-of-band cases, so I don't want to define in terms like "found in =
the INVITE" or whatever. Terminology is tough
> here, I'll try to fix the language here up a bit.

My suggestion is not to replace "original" with "incoming". The issue is th=
at, if there are multiple incoming PASSporTs, which of them is the "origina=
l".

I do agree that we sould not talk about INVITEs etc in Section 3 (we can de=
fine the SIP specific details in Section 4).

---

=A0Q4:
=A0
>> The text in Section 3 says:
>>=A0
>> "A PASSporT claims object containing "div""
>>
>> I don't think we need to say "claims object". It is enough to just talk =
about PASSPorT (you do that elsewhere).
>
> I do think it is useful sometimes to distinguish between the header and t=
he claims, but I can avoid the specific=20
> construction "claims object" if people think it is confusing. "JOSE heade=
r" and "JWT claims set" seem to be the terms used in RFC7519.

Yes. If you need to be explicit of whether you refer to the header or the c=
laims, we can use those words.

But, in general, if are e.g., talking about a claim, you don't need to say =
that it is the "JWT claims set". That is defined in the base PASSporT speci=
fication.

---

Q5:
=A0
>> The text in Section 3 says:
>>=A0
>> "These new PASSporT generated by retargeting entities MUST include the "=
div" PASSporT type,.."
>>=A0
>> Please explicitly indicate which header field includes the "div" type (i=
.e., the "ppt")
>
> While I don't think this is confusing in the text, no harm in saying that=
 explicitly.

Alternatively, based on Q2, you can say "new diversion PASSporT generated b=
y the retargeting entities...". Then it is implicit that the type is "div",=
 because that is specified elsewhere.

---

Q6:
=A0
>> The text in Section 3 says:
>>=A0
>>=A0=A0 ".for all PASSporTs using the "div" type the
>>=A0=A0 signature MUST be created with a credential with authority over th=
e
>>=A0=A0 identity present in the "div" claim.=A0 So for the example above, =
where
>>=A0=A0 the original "dest" is "12155551213", the signer of the new PASSpo=
rT
>>=A0=A0 object MUST have authority over that telephone number,."
>>=A0
>> I think the text can be clarified in the following way:
>>=A0
>>=A0 ".for all PASSporTs using the "div" type the
>>=A0=A0 signature MUST be created with a credential with authority over th=
e
>>=A0=A0 identity present in the "div" claim, which means that the signer M=
UST
>>=A0=A0 have authority over the "dest" claim in the original PASSporT."
>>=A0
>> Because, I think this is a generic normative statement, not just a descr=
iption of an example.
>
> Agreed it is a blunder to have a normative statement in an example. I thi=
nk we still do want an example=20
> and a normative statement, I'll separate them out.

Thanks!

---

Q7:
=A0
>> The text in Section 4.1. says:
>>=A0
>>=A0=A0 "An authentication service only adds an Identity header field
>>=A0=A0 containing the "div" PASSporT type to an SIP request that already
>>=A0=A0 contains at least one Identity header field; it MUST NOT add a "di=
v"
>>=A0=A0 request to an INVITE that contains no other Identity headers field=
s."
>>=A0
>> Is there a reason why you first say "SIP request" and then "INVITE"? Can=
't the "it MUST NOT add." part be removed?
>
> Agreed that "INVITE" there should be the more generic "request." The prev=
ious statement is not normative, though, so I'd hesitate=20
> to remove the normative statement entirely.

Ok.

---

Q8:
=A0
>> In Section 4, when the new PASSPorT has been created and added to a SIP =
message, we need to clarify where the=20
>> associated Identity header field is located in relation to other Identit=
y header fields.
>>=A0
>> Alt A:
>>
>> Identity: incoming_PASSPorT
>> Identity: div_PASSPorT
>>=A0
>> Alt B:
>>=A0
>> Identity: div_PASSPorT
>> Identity: incoming_PASSPorT=A0
>
> Hmm. Do we think that intermediaries will always preserve the order of th=
ese headers?
> I guess we could order them in the hopes that they will. But again, I thi=
nk we should provide a means that lets verification=20
> services look at the PASSporTs associated with a request and figure out h=
ow they are related. That discussion is how we ended=20
> up with nesting in the first place. Right now we only RECOMMEND that impl=
ementations use nesting for in-band, until we get=20
> some more input on the header size question, but we need to do something =
here to make it clear how PASSporTs are ordered.=20
> Maybe "iat" helps? A few possibilities.

My assumption has been that the order MUST be preserved (similar to Record-=
Route, Route etc), but that we need to specify where new Identity header fi=
elds are placed in relation to the existing headers. Because, if we at some=
 point come up with a use-case where the order matters, we could end up wit=
h problem.=20

Regarding nesting, if there are multiple incoming Identity header fields, t=
he text needs to be clear which of them (or all of them) are nested, and ho=
w it is done. The text currently says that the "original" PASSporT is neste=
d, so I assume this is related to my question on which PASSporT (if multipl=
e) "original" refers to.

Regards,

Christer


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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@jdrosen.net>, "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [stir] SIPCoin - a new cryptocurrency for stopping robocalls
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Subject: Re: [stir] SIPCoin - a new cryptocurrency for stopping robocalls
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--_000_D6C80BB42C5E1christerholmbergericssoncom_
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Hi,

Is the idea that SIPCoin would be built using some existing blockchain plat=
form, or would we define a whole new blockchain platform from scratch for S=
IPCoin?

Regards,

Christer


From: stir <stir-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf =
of "jdrosen@jdrosen.net<mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net>" <jdrosen@jdrosen.net<m=
ailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net>>
Date: Saturday 3 March 2018 at 00:45
To: "stir@ietf.org<mailto:stir@ietf.org>" <stir@ietf.org<mailto:stir@ietf.o=
rg>>
Subject: [stir] SIPCoin - a new cryptocurrency for stopping robocalls

Cullen and I have just submitted this:
https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-rosenberg-stir-sipcoin-00.txt

which is a proposal for a new type of cyryptocurrency dedicated solely to p=
reventing spam on the SIP-based phone network. It is designed to be fast, c=
ausing less than one second increases in call setup time. NOn-transferrable=
 to avoid being a tool for fraud and avoid being tied to market whim; backe=
d by public CAs with a new type of centralized ledger validation; trivially=
 verifiable by receivers of calls. Also we suggest a technique for incremen=
tal deployment on the PSTN which has incremental benefits and economic bene=
fits for each deployment phase. We've done some analysis on the economics t=
o help motivate the solution.

WHen combined with our previous draft, and some nice whitelisting thrown in=
 as described in here, I think this is a very interested technique to put t=
his robocalling plague to rest.

I'm coming to London and looking forward to discussing.

Comments are, of course, welcome.

--
Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D.
jdrosen@jdrosen.net<mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net>
http://www.jdrosen.net

--_000_D6C80BB42C5E1christerholmbergericssoncom_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-ID: <64D7FC9E24B84A4EA7DA2D767015F800@ericsson.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"=
>
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif;">
<div>Hi,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Is the idea that SIPCoin would be built using some existing blockchain=
 platform, or would we define a whole new blockchain platform from scratch =
for SIPCoin?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Christer</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:b=
lack; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM:=
 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;=
 BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span>stir &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:st=
ir-bounces@ietf.org">stir-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of &quot;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net">jdrosen@jdrosen.net</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net">jdrosen@jdrosen.net</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span>Saturday 3 March 2018 at 00:4=
5<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:stir@ie=
tf.org">stir@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org">stir@i=
etf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span>[stir] SIPCoin - a new cry=
ptocurrency for stopping robocalls<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>Cullen and I have just submitted this:<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-rosenberg-stir-sipcoin-00.txt">htt=
ps://www.ietf.org/id/draft-rosenberg-stir-sipcoin-00.txt</a><br>
<br>
</div>
which is a proposal for a new type of cyryptocurrency dedicated solely to p=
reventing spam on the SIP-based phone network. It is designed to be fast, c=
ausing less than one second increases in call setup time. NOn-transferrable=
 to avoid being a tool for fraud
 and avoid being tied to market whim; backed by public CAs with a new type =
of centralized ledger validation; trivially verifiable by receivers of call=
s. Also we suggest a technique for incremental deployment on the PSTN which=
 has incremental benefits and economic
 benefits for each deployment phase. We've done some analysis on the econom=
ics to help motivate the solution.<br>
<br>
</div>
WHen combined with our previous draft, and some nice whitelisting thrown in=
 as described in here, I think this is a very interested technique to put t=
his robocalling plague to rest.<br>
<br>
</div>
I'm coming to London and looking forward to discussing. <br>
<br>
</div>
Comments are, of course, welcome.<br clear=3D"all">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
-- <br>
<div class=3D"gmail_signature">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D.<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net" target=3D"_blank">jdrosen@jdrosen.ne=
t</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://www.jdrosen.net" target=3D"_blank">http://www.jdrosen.net=
</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
</body>
</html>

--_000_D6C80BB42C5E1christerholmbergericssoncom_--


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Adam:

Revision -03 was posted on Feb. 1st.  Can you tell us whether yout =
comments have been addresses with this revision?

Russ=

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--></style><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Revision -03 was posted on Feb. 1st. &nbsp;Can you tell us whether yout comments have been addresses with this revision?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Russ</div></body></html>
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From nobody Fri Mar  9 13:25:13 2018
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We only have 1 hour.  We received more speaking slots than we expected.  =
I have ordered the speaking slots to put priority on the active WG =
documents.  Time will be VERY tight.

For the active WG documents, please focus on the changes since Singapore =
and open issues.

For the other documents, please introduce the high-level concept, and =
then as the WG for advice on the way forward.

Russ

=3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D

STIR WG Agenda for IETF 101
Thursday, 22 March 2018 at 11:00 AM
Co-chairs: Robert Sparks and Russ Housley

0)  Minute Taker, Jabber Scribe, Bluesheets

1)  Agenda Bash

2)  Documents that have been sent to the IESG
    a) 5 min : draft-ietf-stir-rph-03 (Ray, Martin, Subir, and An)

3)  Active Working Group Documents
    a) 10 min : draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-01 (Chris and Mary)
    b) 10 min : draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-02 (Jon)
    c) 10 min : draft-ietf-stir-oob-02 (EKR and Jon)

4)  Other Business (if time allows)
    a) 5 min : draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00 (Eric)
    b) 5 min : draft-peterson-stir-rfc4916-update-00 (Jon and Chris)
    c) 5 min : draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00 (Jonathan and Cullen)
    d) 5 min : draft-rosenberg-stir-sipcoin-00 (Jonathan and Cullen)

5)  Wrap Up


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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
CC: "adam@nostrum.com" <adam@nostrum.com>
Thread-Topic: PASSporT extensions: order of claims
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Subject: [stir] PASSporT extensions: order of claims
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Hi,

Section  says:

   "Specifications that define extensions to the PASSporT mechanism MUST
   explicitly specify what claims they include beyond the base set of
   claims from this document, the order in which they will appear,..."

When looking at the extensions we are currently working on:

draft-ietf-stir-rph-03
draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-01
draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-02

...I don't see anything about the order in any of the documents.

I think it would be good to have a dedicated "Order of claims" section, or =
something similar, in each extension specification.

When looking at the examples in the drafts above, it seems like even the ba=
se claims are in different orders. Not sure whether there is an explicit re=
quirement that they need to be in order, thought.

Regards,

Christer



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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section&nbsp; says:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; &#8220;Specifications that define exten=
sions to the PASSporT mechanism MUST<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; explicitly specify what claims they inc=
lude beyond the base set of<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; claims from this document, <b>the order=
 in which they will appear</b>,&#8230;&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">When looking at the extensions we are currently work=
ing on:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">draft-ietf-stir-rph-03<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-01<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-02<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8230;I don&#8217;t see anything about the order in=
 any of the documents.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think it would be good to have a dedicated &#8220;=
Order of claims&#8221; section, or something similar, in each extension spe=
cification.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">When looking at the examples in the drafts above, it=
 seems like even the base claims are in different orders. Not sure whether =
there is an explicit requirement that they need to be in order, thought.<o:=
p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Christer<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
CC: "adam@nostrum.com" <adam@nostrum.com>
Thread-Topic: PASSporT extensions: order of claims
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Subject: Re: [stir] PASSporT extensions: order of claims
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Section 8.3 of RFC 8225, that is.

From: stir [mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christer Holmberg
Sent: 10 March 2018 15:26
To: stir@ietf.org
Cc: adam@nostrum.com
Subject: [stir] PASSporT extensions: order of claims

Hi,

Section  says:

   "Specifications that define extensions to the PASSporT mechanism MUST
   explicitly specify what claims they include beyond the base set of
   claims from this document, the order in which they will appear,..."

When looking at the extensions we are currently working on:

draft-ietf-stir-rph-03
draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-01
draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-02

...I don't see anything about the order in any of the documents.

I think it would be good to have a dedicated "Order of claims" section, or =
something similar, in each extension specification.

When looking at the examples in the drafts above, it seems like even the ba=
se claims are in different orders. Not sure whether there is an explicit re=
quirement that they need to be in order, thought.

Regards,

Christer



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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Section 8.3 of RFC 822=
5, that is.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></a></p>
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0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-languag=
e:EN-GB">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language=
:EN-GB"> stir [mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Christer Holmberg<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 10 March 2018 15:26<br>
<b>To:</b> stir@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> adam@nostrum.com<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [stir] PASSporT extensions: order of claims<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section&nbsp; says:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; &#8220;Specifications that define exten=
sions to the PASSporT mechanism MUST<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; explicitly specify what claims they inc=
lude beyond the base set of<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; claims from this document, <b>the order=
 in which they will appear</b>,&#8230;&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">When looking at the extensions we are currently work=
ing on:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">draft-ietf-stir-rph-03<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-01<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-02<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8230;I don&#8217;t see anything about the order in=
 any of the documents.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think it would be good to have a dedicated &#8220;=
Order of claims&#8221; section, or something similar, in each extension spe=
cification.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">When looking at the examples in the drafts above, it=
 seems like even the base claims are in different orders. Not sure whether =
there is an explicit requirement that they need to be in order, thought.<o:=
p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Christer<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>, IETF STIR Mail List <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [stir] DRAFT STIR Agenda for London
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Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 17:33:06 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/stir/8bFcYYg8Vr4R7BsjjyEkVSnel18>
Subject: Re: [stir] DRAFT STIR Agenda for London
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Hi,

I think there are some generic things that we need to sort out.

For example, do we specify in which order Identity header fields are added =
to a SIP message. Or, do we assume they can be put in any order, possible r=
e-ordered by intermediaries, and the entities consuming them will figure ou=
t how they are related?

I think that is an essential issue to solve, considering that there are a n=
umber of PASSporT extensions in the pipeline. And, we should make a decisio=
n that apply to all of them.

Regards,

Christer




-----Original Message-----
From: stir [mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Russ Housley
Sent: 09 March 2018 23:25
To: IETF STIR Mail List <stir@ietf.org>
Subject: [stir] DRAFT STIR Agenda for London

We only have 1 hour.  We received more speaking slots than we expected.  I =
have ordered the speaking slots to put priority on the active WG documents.=
  Time will be VERY tight.

For the active WG documents, please focus on the changes since Singapore an=
d open issues.

For the other documents, please introduce the high-level concept, and then =
as the WG for advice on the way forward.

Russ

=3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D

STIR WG Agenda for IETF 101
Thursday, 22 March 2018 at 11:00 AM
Co-chairs: Robert Sparks and Russ Housley

0)  Minute Taker, Jabber Scribe, Bluesheets

1)  Agenda Bash

2)  Documents that have been sent to the IESG
    a) 5 min : draft-ietf-stir-rph-03 (Ray, Martin, Subir, and An)

3)  Active Working Group Documents
    a) 10 min : draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-01 (Chris and Mary)
    b) 10 min : draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-02 (Jon)
    c) 10 min : draft-ietf-stir-oob-02 (EKR and Jon)

4)  Other Business (if time allows)
    a) 5 min : draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00 (Eric)
    b) 5 min : draft-peterson-stir-rfc4916-update-00 (Jon and Chris)
    c) 5 min : draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00 (Jonathan and Cullen)
    d) 5 min : draft-rosenberg-stir-sipcoin-00 (Jonathan and Cullen)

5)  Wrap Up

_______________________________________________
stir mailing list
stir@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir


From nobody Mon Mar 12 06:43:19 2018
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From: "Gorman, Pierce A [CTO]" <Pierce.Gorman@sprint.com>
To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>, IETF STIR Mail List <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [stir] DRAFT STIR Agenda for London
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/stir/cxPoUmiiSaNt6gerJMLNMhdhc18>
Subject: Re: [stir] DRAFT STIR Agenda for London
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I agree that the question of order (or not) of Identity headers needs to be=
 resolved.

I started to write assumptions and questions on this topic but decided it w=
ouldn't add much to a discussion amongst development professionals who have=
 encountered the issue before (which is my assumption about the authors and=
 Christer).  I can re-create it if anyone wants it.

Pierce


-----Original Message-----
From: Christer Holmberg [mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2018 11:33 AM
To: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>; IETF STIR Mail List <stir@ietf.org=
>
Subject: Re: [stir] DRAFT STIR Agenda for London

Hi,

I think there are some generic things that we need to sort out.

For example, do we specify in which order Identity header fields are added =
to a SIP message. Or, do we assume they can be put in any order, possible r=
e-ordered by intermediaries, and the entities consuming them will figure ou=
t how they are related?

I think that is an essential issue to solve, considering that there are a n=
umber of PASSporT extensions in the pipeline. And, we should make a decisio=
n that apply to all of them.

Regards,

Christer




-----Original Message-----
From: stir [mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Russ Housley
Sent: 09 March 2018 23:25
To: IETF STIR Mail List <stir@ietf.org>
Subject: [stir] DRAFT STIR Agenda for London

We only have 1 hour.  We received more speaking slots than we expected.  I =
have ordered the speaking slots to put priority on the active WG documents.=
  Time will be VERY tight.

For the active WG documents, please focus on the changes since Singapore an=
d open issues.

For the other documents, please introduce the high-level concept, and then =
as the WG for advice on the way forward.

Russ

=3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D

STIR WG Agenda for IETF 101
Thursday, 22 March 2018 at 11:00 AM
Co-chairs: Robert Sparks and Russ Housley

0)  Minute Taker, Jabber Scribe, Bluesheets

1)  Agenda Bash

2)  Documents that have been sent to the IESG
    a) 5 min : draft-ietf-stir-rph-03 (Ray, Martin, Subir, and An)

3)  Active Working Group Documents
    a) 10 min : draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-01 (Chris and Mary)
    b) 10 min : draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-02 (Jon)
    c) 10 min : draft-ietf-stir-oob-02 (EKR and Jon)

4)  Other Business (if time allows)
    a) 5 min : draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00 (Eric)
    b) 5 min : draft-peterson-stir-rfc4916-update-00 (Jon and Chris)
    c) 5 min : draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00 (Jonathan and Cullen)
    d) 5 min : draft-rosenberg-stir-sipcoin-00 (Jonathan and Cullen)

5)  Wrap Up

_______________________________________________
stir mailing list
stir@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir



________________________________

This e-mail may contain Sprint proprietary information intended for the sol=
e use of the recipient(s). Any use by others is prohibited. If you are not =
the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all copies of =
the message.


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Subject: Re: [stir] AD Review: draft-ietf-stir-rph-02 - authority to assert the callers identity assumed?
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On 3/9/18 3:02 PM, Russ Housley wrote:
> Revision -03 was posted on Feb. 1st.  Can you tell us whether yout 
> comments have been addresses with this revision?

The document is ready. I indicated in the tracker: "Given the excessive 
number of documents currently in last call, I'm going to wait last call 
on this document until after London, to give the last-call queue some 
time to drain." I thought these comments were automatically sent by the 
tools to the working group mailing list, but apparently they aren't. 
Sorry for the confusion.

/a


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From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
In-Reply-To: <3337859f-24db-d02c-dd4c-6c00fd9effc1@nostrum.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 08:09:08 -0400
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References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B6C135F8E@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> <CAFb8J8pa9_q-pQbDy7ACg-JnFurOCJALYUdBzD6C-P1rJHO52g@mail.gmail.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B6C153849@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> <0981B4BB-98C6-4DBB-8E13-A702944ACC3E@gmail.com> <E42CCDDA6722744CB241677169E8365668A592A9@MISOUT7MSGUSRDB.ITServices.sbc.com> <C1A3E161FB009440ABA575570A60CD9C9A5FED72@rrc-ats-exmb2.ats.atsinnovate.com> <D3F011C9-7E23-4BBF-8D9F-E7C2776A4317@ericsson.com> <VI1PR0701MB2304239864FCD877776690D8C7FE0@VI1PR0701MB2304.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <E42CCDDA6722744CB241677169E8365668A5B136@MISOUT7MSGUSRDB.ITServices.sbc.com> <60DBC9ED-9ECD-45D6-AE8C-A8259630BE3B@vigilsec.com> <3337859f-24db-d02c-dd4c-6c00fd9effc1@nostrum.com>
To: Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>
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Subject: Re: [stir] AD Review: draft-ietf-stir-rph-02 - authority to assert the callers identity assumed?
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Thanks.  I guess I missed the comment in the tracker.  Not that you say =
it again, I recall reading that before ...

Russ


> On Mar 12, 2018, at 5:04 PM, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com> wrote:
>=20
> On 3/9/18 3:02 PM, Russ Housley wrote:
>> Revision -03 was posted on Feb. 1st.  Can you tell us whether yout =
comments have been addresses with this revision?
>=20
> The document is ready. I indicated in the tracker: "Given the =
excessive number of documents currently in last call, I'm going to wait =
last call on this document until after London, to give the last-call =
queue some time to drain." I thought these comments were automatically =
sent by the tools to the working group mailing list, but apparently they =
aren't. Sorry for the confusion.
>=20
> /a


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Cc: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, Julio Martinez-Minguito <julio.martinez-minguito@ericsson.com>, "Singh, Ray P" <rsingh@vencorelabs.com>, "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-stir-rph.all@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-stir-rph.all@tools.ietf.org>, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>, Subir <subirdas21@gmail.com>, STIR Chairs <stir-chairs@ietf.org>
To: "DOLLY, MARTIN C" <md3135@att.com>
References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B6C135F8E@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> <CAFb8J8pa9_q-pQbDy7ACg-JnFurOCJALYUdBzD6C-P1rJHO52g@mail.gmail.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B6C153849@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> <0981B4BB-98C6-4DBB-8E13-A702944ACC3E@gmail.com> <E42CCDDA6722744CB241677169E8365668A592A9@MISOUT7MSGUSRDB.ITServices.sbc.com> <C1A3E161FB009440ABA575570A60CD9C9A5FED72@rrc-ats-exmb2.ats.atsinnovate.com> <D3F011C9-7E23-4BBF-8D9F-E7C2776A4317@ericsson.com> <VI1PR0701MB2304239864FCD877776690D8C7FE0@VI1PR0701MB2304.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B6C156576@ESESSMB109.ericsson.se> <E42CCDDA6722744CB241677169E8365668A5B224@MISOUT7MSGUSRDB.ITServices.sbc.com>
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Subject: Re: [stir] AD Review: draft-ietf-stir-rph-02 - authority to assert the callers identity assumed?
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A PASSporT can only be signed by one authority and that authority needs =
to only be an authority of the context of the assertion being made by =
the PASSporT.  For RPH, the assertion is the association of the rph =
claim to the telephone call with to/from/date.  This is not to be =
confused with SHAKEN which the authority of the assertion is around the =
caller-id at origination.  These are completely different concepts and =
shouldn=E2=80=99t be correlated.  Just because =E2=80=9Corig=E2=80=9D is =
in the claim for RPH doesn=E2=80=99t necessarily mean that RPH signer =
has authority for it, it=E2=80=99s purely to associate the RPH code with =
the specific call details.

-Chris

> On Feb 5, 2018, at 10:58 AM, DOLLY, MARTIN C <md3135@att.com> wrote:
>=20
> Christer,
> =20
> It does not need to.
> =20
> Regards,
> =20
> Martin
> =20
> From: Christer Holmberg [mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com]=20
> Sent: Monday, February 05, 2018 10:20 AM
> To: Julio Martinez-Minguito <julio.martinez-minguito@ericsson.com>; =
Singh, Ray P <rsingh@vencorelabs.com>; stir@ietf.org
> Cc: DOLLY, MARTIN C <md3135@att.com>; Subir <subirdas21@gmail.com>; =
Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>; STIR Chairs <stir-chairs@ietf.org>; =
draft-ietf-stir-rph.all@tools.ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [stir] AD Review: draft-ietf-stir-rph-02 - authority to =
assert the callers identity assumed?
> =20
> Hi,
> =20
> Related to this: how does the verifier know what claim(s) in a =
PASSPorT the signer had authority to sign?
> =20
> Regards,
> =20
> Christer
>  <>=20
> From: Julio Martinez-Minguito=20
> Sent: 05 February 2018 17:12
> To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com =
<mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>>; Singh, Ray P =
<rsingh@vencorelabs.com <mailto:rsingh@vencorelabs.com>>; stir@ietf.org =
<mailto:stir@ietf.org>
> Cc: DOLLY, MARTIN C <md3135@att.com <mailto:md3135@att.com>>; Subir =
<subirdas21@gmail.com <mailto:subirdas21@gmail.com>>; Adam Roach =
<adam@nostrum.com <mailto:adam@nostrum.com>>; STIR Chairs =
<stir-chairs@ietf.org <mailto:stir-chairs@ietf.org>>; =
draft-ietf-stir-rph.all@tools.ietf.org =
<mailto:draft-ietf-stir-rph.all@tools.ietf.org>
> Subject: RE: [stir] AD Review: draft-ietf-stir-rph-02 - authority to =
assert the callers identity assumed?
> =20
> Hi,
> =20
> If the PASSporT with extension ppt:rph only has authority over the rph =
claim, does it mean that we need another PASSporT in the signaling to =
claim authority over the =E2=80=98orig=E2=80=99 number?
> Should there be nested PASSporTs?
> =20
> Regards, Julio
> =20
> From: Christer Holmberg [mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com =
<mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>]=20
> Sent: den 5 februari 2018 07:38
> To: Singh, Ray P <rsingh@vencorelabs.com =
<mailto:rsingh@vencorelabs.com>>
> Cc: DOLLY, MARTIN C <md3135@att.com <mailto:md3135@att.com>>; Subir =
<subirdas21@gmail.com <mailto:subirdas21@gmail.com>>; stir@ietf.org =
<mailto:stir@ietf.org>; Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com =
<mailto:adam@nostrum.com>>; STIR Chairs <stir-chairs@ietf.org =
<mailto:stir-chairs@ietf.org>>; draft-ietf-stir-rph.all@tools.ietf.org =
<mailto:draft-ietf-stir-rph.all@tools.ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [stir] AD Review: draft-ietf-stir-rph-02 - authority to =
assert the callers identity assumed?
> =20
> Hi,=20
> =20
> I think the reason why =E2=80=98orig=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98dest=E2=80=99=
 are required in every PASSPorT should be explained the the PASSPorT =
document, in my opinion. It is not specific to the RPH extension.
> =20
> Not sure how =E2=80=98orig=E2=80=99 can be used to identify a call. =
You can have multiple calls with the same =E2=80=98orig=E2=80=99 value, =
can=E2=80=99t you?=20
> =20
> Regards,
> =20
> Christer
> =20
> =20
>=20
> Sent from my iPhone
>=20
> On 4 Feb 2018, at 21.45, Singh, Ray P <rsingh@vencorelabs.com =
<mailto:rsingh@vencorelabs.com>> wrote:
>=20
> All,
>=20
> Yes, the claim is only for the RPH. The"orig" and "dest" is included =
so that the RPH claim can be correlated to the call.  We can add some =
clarification text to indicate that "orig" is only included so that the =
RPH claim can be correlated to a specific call, and that the signer of =
the RPH claim may no have authority of the "orig" TN.
>=20
> Thanks
>=20
> Ray
>=20
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> From: stir [stir-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org>] on =
behalf of DOLLY, MARTIN C [md3135@att.com <mailto:md3135@att.com>]
> Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 7:05 PM
> To: Subir; Christer Holmberg
> Cc: stir@ietf.org <mailto:stir@ietf.org>; Adam Roach; STIR Chairs; =
draft-ietf-stir-rph.all@tools.ietf.org =
<mailto:draft-ietf-stir-rph.all@tools.ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [stir] AD Review: draft-ietf-stir-rph-02 - authority to =
assert the callers identity assumed?
>=20
> We only have one claim and that is the RPH
> =20
> From: Subir [mailto:subirdas21@gmail.com =
<mailto:subirdas21@gmail.com>]=20
> Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 5:56 PM
> To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com =
<mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>>
> Cc: Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com <mailto:adam@nostrum.com>>; STIR =
Chairs <stir-chairs@ietf.org <mailto:stir-chairs@ietf.org>>; =
stir@ietf.org <mailto:stir@ietf.org>; =
draft-ietf-stir-rph.all@tools.ietf.org =
<mailto:draft-ietf-stir-rph.all@tools.ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [stir] AD Review: draft-ietf-stir-rph-02 - authority to =
assert the callers identity assumed?
> =20
>=20
> We can add some texts to clarify that in the next version. The point =
is that in some use cases service provider may have the authority to  =
other claims such as 'orig' and in other cases it may not have.  We can =
add a may statement clarifying this or explicitly say that it is not =
required to have authority to other claims.
> =20
> Thanks,
> =20
> Subir=20
> Sent from my iPhone
>=20
> On Feb 4, 2018, at 10:03 PM, Christer Holmberg =
<christer.holmberg@ericsson.com <mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>> =
wrote:
>=20
> Hi,
> =20
> The text says:
> =20
>    =E2=80=9CThe credentials (e.g., authority responsible for =
authorizing Resource-
>    Priority) used to create the signature must have authority over the
>    namespace of the "rph" claim and there is only one authority per
>    claim.=E2=80=9D
> =20
> If the credentials don=E2=80=99t need to have authority of the other =
claims (e.g., =E2=80=9Corig=E2=80=9D) in the RPH PASSPorT I think you =
should explicitly say so.
> =20
> Regards,
> =20
> Christer
> =20
> =20
> From: Subir Das [mailto:subirdas21@gmail.com =
<mailto:subirdas21@gmail.com>]=20
> Sent: 02 February 2018 01:04
> To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com =
<mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>>
> Cc: Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com <mailto:adam@nostrum.com>>; STIR =
Chairs <stir-chairs@ietf.org <mailto:stir-chairs@ietf.org>>; =
stir@ietf.org <mailto:stir@ietf.org>; =
draft-ietf-stir-rph.all@tools.ietf.org =
<mailto:draft-ietf-stir-rph.all@tools.ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [stir] AD Review: draft-ietf-stir-rph-02 - authority to =
assert the callers identity assumed?
> =20
> Hello Christer,
> The signing entity does not have always the authority to assert the =
caller identity in rph. We are submitting ver-03 draft  and it is =
clarified  as follows:
> "The credentials (e.g., authority responsible for authorizing =
Resource-Priority) used to create the signature must have authority over =
the namespace of the=E2=80=9Crph" claim.."=20
> =20
> -Subir
> =20
> On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 3:27 PM, Christer Holmberg =
<christer.holmberg@ericsson.com <mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>> =
wrote:
> Hi,
> =20
> Another question for clarification.
> =20
> Section 3 contains the following example:
> =20
>     { "orig":{"tn":"12155551212 <tel:(215)%20555-1212>"}
>      "dest":{["tn":"12125551213 <tel:(212)%20555-1213>"]},
>      "iat":1443208345,
>      "rph":{"auth":["ets.0","wps.0"]}
> =20
> =E2=80=A6and the following text:
> =20
>    =E2=80=9CThe credentials (e.g., authority responsible for =
authorizing Resource-
>    Priority) used to create the signature must have authority over the
>    "rph" claim=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D
>  <>=20
> Since the claim also contains =E2=80=9Corig=E2=80=9D, is the =
assumption that the signing entity always also has authority to assert =
the callers identity? I think it would be good to explicitly mention it.
> =20
> Regards,
> =20
> Christer
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> From: stir [mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Adam Roach
> Sent: 20 January 2018 00:15
> To: STIR Chairs <stir-chairs@ietf.org <mailto:stir-chairs@ietf.org>>; =
stir@ietf.org <mailto:stir@ietf.org>; =
draft-ietf-stir-rph.all@tools.ietf.org =
<mailto:draft-ietf-stir-rph.all@tools.ietf.org>
> Subject: [stir] AD Review: draft-ietf-stir-rph-02
> =20
> I'm doing my AD review of draft-ietf-stir-rph-02. Thanks to everyone =
who has worked on this document, and the authors and chairs in =
particular.
>=20
> The technical content here looks generally good to me. I'd like to see =
a few issues addressed before IETF LC. In short sumary:
>=20
> The validation section needs to add a discussion of how to treat calls =
when the priority values in "rph" passports and SIP "Resource-Priority" =
header fields aren't 100% identical.
> The examples need some adjustment.=20
> There is a minor point of ambiguity in the Security Section, but this =
should be easy to fix, as long as the WG knows what was intended.
> The IANA actions need a little bit of adjustment.=20
> There are a number of minor editorial issues to be cleaned up.
> Detailed comments on these points are inline in the document below. =
I've removed some portions of the document on which I have no comments.
>=20
> =20
>=20
>=20
> Abstract
>=20
>    This document extends the STIR PASSporT specification to allow the
> =20
>=20
> "...the Secure Telephone Identity Revisited (STIR) Personal Assertion =
Token (PASSporT) specification defined in RFC 8122..."
>=20
> (See <https://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt> =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.rfc-2Deditor.o=
rg_materials_abbrev.expansion.txt&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DLFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=3D=
G9v8uCSSQhCmpw7ItG0r2g&m=3DslKIBY37y8p4iC3JgjuwD1TI9OgW7QTHWzmJVyqyJNg&s=3D=
iBTAhwN517BNArmj8bb8Uat3LAIfSqEb3OzuqHOl6ko&e=3D> for guidance on =
abbreviations)
>=20
> =20
>=20
>    inclusion of cryptographically-signed assertions of authorization =
for
>    the values populated in the SIP 'Resource-Priority' header field,
>    which is used for communications resource prioritization.
>=20
> ...
>=20
> 1.  Introduction
>=20
>    PASSporT [I-D.ietf-stir-passport] is a token format based on JWT
>    [RFC7519] for conveying cryptographically-signed information about
>    the identities involved in personal communications; it is used with
>    STIR [I-D.ietf-stir-rfc4474bis] to convey a signed assertion of the
>    identity of the participants in real-time communications =
established
>    via a protocol like SIP.  This specification extends PASSporT to
> =20
>=20
> "...like SIP [RFC3261]..."
>=20
> (We want to cite SIP the first time it is mentioned)
>=20
> =20
>=20
>    allow cryptographic-signing of the SIP 'Resource-Priority' header
>    field defined in [RFC4412].
>=20
>    [RFC4412] defines the SIP 'Resource-Priority' header field for
>    communications Resource Priority.  As specified in [RFC4412], the
>    'Resource-Priority' header field may be used by SIP user agents
>    [RFC3261], including, Public Switched Telephone Network (PSTN)
> =20
>=20
> "...including Public Switched..."
>=20
> (remove the comma)
>=20
> =20
>=20
>    gateways and terminals, and SIP proxy servers to influence
> =20
>=20
> "...and by SIP proxy servers, to influence..."
>=20
> (add "by" and comma)
>=20
> =20
>=20
>    prioritization afforded to communication sessions,including PSTN
> =20
> "...sessions, including..."
>=20
> (space after comma)
>=20
> =20
>=20
>    calls.  However, the SIP 'Resource-Priority' header field could be
>    spoofed and abused by unauthorized entities.
>=20
>    The STIR architecture [RFC7340]assumes that an authority on the
> =20
>=20
> "...STIR architecture [RFC7340] assumes..."
>=20
> (space before "assumes")
>=20
> =20
>=20
>    originating side of a call provides a cryptographic assurance of =
the
>    validity of the calling party number in order to prevent
>    impersonation attacks.  The STIR architecture allows extension that
> =20
>=20
> "...allows extensions..."
>=20
> =20
>=20
>    can be utilized by authorities supporting real-time communication
>    services using the 'Resource-Priority' header field to
>    cryptographically sign the SIP 'Resource-Priority' header field and
>    convey assertion of the authorization for 'Resource-Priority'.  For
>    example, the authority on the originating side verifying the
>    authorization of a particular communication for Resource-Priority =
can
> =20
>=20
> Single quotes around 'Resource-Priority'.
>=20
> =20
>=20
>    use a PASSPorT claim to cryptographically-sign the SIP 'Resource-
> =20
>=20
> "...cryptographically sign..."
>=20
> =20
>=20
>    Priority' header field and convey an assertion of the authorization
>    for 'Resource-Priority'.  This will allow a receiving entity
>    (including entities located in different network =
domains/boundaries)
>    to verify the validity of assertions authorizing Resource-Priority.
> =20
>=20
> Single quotes around 'Resource-Priority'.
>=20
> =20
>=20
>    Cryptographically-signed SIP 'Resource-Priority' headers will allow =
a
> =20
>=20
> "...cryptographically signed SIP 'Resource-Priority' header fields..."
>=20
> (remove hyphen, and replace "headers" with "header fields")
>=20
> =20
>=20
>    receiving entity to verify and act on the information with =
confidence
>    that the information have not been spoofed or compromised.
> =20
>=20
> "...has not been spoofed or compromised."
>=20
> =20
>=20
>=20
>    This specification documents an optional extension to PASSporT and
>    the associated STIR mechanisms to provide a function to sign the =
SIP
>    'Resource-Priority' header field.  This PASSporT object is used to
>    provide attestation of a calling user authorization for priority
>    communications.  This is necessary in addition to the PASSporT =
object
>    that is used for calling user telephone number attestation.  How =
the
>    optional extension to PASSporT is used for real-time communications
>    supported using SIP 'Resource-Priority' header field is defined in
>    other documents and is outside the scope of this document.
> =20
>=20
> I assume these other documents are under development? If so, they =
should be cited here.
>=20
> =20
>=20
>=20
> 2.  Terminology
>=20
>    The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT",
>    "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in =
this
>    document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119 [RFC2119].
> =20
>=20
> This document has several non-normative uses of "must", "should," and =
"may," and so it needs to use the RFC8174 boilerplate instead of the =
RFC2119 boilerplate.
>=20
> =20
>=20
>=20
> 3.  PASSporT 'rph' Claim
>=20
>    This specification defines a new JSON Web Token claim for "rph",
>    which provides an assertion for information in SIP 'Resource-
>    Priority'header.
> =20
>=20
> "...Priority' header field."
>=20
> (space after closing quotation mark, "header field" instead of =
"header")
>=20
> =20
>=20
>=20
>    The creator of a PASSporT object adds a "ppt" value of "rph" to the
>    header of a PASSporT object, in which case the PASSporT claims MUST
>    contain a "rph" claim, and any entities verifying the PASSporT =
object
>    will be required to understand the "ppt" extension in order to
>    process the PASSporT in question.  A PASSPorT header with the "ppt"
>    included will look as follows:
>=20
>    {  "typ":"passport",
>      "ppt":"rph",
>      "alg":"ES256",
>      "x5u":"https://www.example.org/cert.cer" =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.example.org_ce=
rt.cer&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DLFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=3DG9v8uCSSQhCmpw7ItG0r2g&m=3D=
slKIBY37y8p4iC3JgjuwD1TI9OgW7QTHWzmJVyqyJNg&s=3DWTTuDmy39i2zI3icMHo82cqRGa=
XjzHywIgBAIK1oqCU&e=3D>}
> =20
>=20
> Ideally, this would be either pretty-printed or canonicalized. Since =
it's too long to fit on a line in canonical form, I propose:
>=20
> {
>   "typ":"passport",
>   "ppt":"rph",
>   "alg":"ES256",
>   "x5u":"https://www.example.org/cert.cer" =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.example.org_ce=
rt.cer&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DLFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=3DG9v8uCSSQhCmpw7ItG0r2g&m=3D=
slKIBY37y8p4iC3JgjuwD1TI9OgW7QTHWzmJVyqyJNg&s=3DWTTuDmy39i2zI3icMHo82cqRGa=
XjzHywIgBAIK1oqCU&e=3D>
> }
>=20
> =20
>=20
>=20
>    The "rph" claim will provide an assertion of authorization,"auth",
> =20
>=20
> "...authorization, "auth", ..."
>=20
> (space between comma and opening quotation mark)
>=20
> =20
>=20
>    for information in the SIP "Resource-Priority" header field (i.e.,
>    Resource-Priority: namespace "." r-priority) based on [RFC4412].
> =20
>=20
> The use of the string 'namespace "." r-priority' here and elsewhere in =
the document has a detrimental impact on readability. I strongly suggest =
replacing it with "r-value" (the name of this production in RFC4412) =
everywhere.
>=20
> =20
>=20
>    Specifically, the "rph" claim includes assertion of the priority-
>    level of the user to be used for a given communication session.  =
The
>    value of the "rph" claim is an array containing one or more of JSON
>    objects for the content of the SIP 'Resource-Priority' header that =
is
>    being asserted of which one of the "rph" object, is mandatory.
> =20
>=20
> This last sentence is very hard to parse; and (based on the example) =
the value is intended to be a JSON Object (curly braces) rather than a =
JSON Array (square braces). I suggest: 'The value of the "rph" claim is =
an Object with one or more keys. Each key is associated with a JSON =
Array. These arrays contain Strings that correspond to the r-values =
indicated in the SIP "Resource-Priority" header field.' (note: "header =
field", not "header")
>=20
> =20
>=20
>=20
>    The following is an example "rph" claim for a SIP =
"Resource-Priority"
>    header field with a "namespace "." r-priority" value of "ets.0" and
>    with a "namespace "." r-priority" value of "wps.0".
>=20
>     { "orig":{"tn":"12155551212 <tel:(215)%20555-1212>"}
>      "dest":{["tn":"12125551213 <tel:(212)%20555-1213>"]},
>      "iat":1443208345,
>      "rph":{"auth":["ets.0","wps.0"]}
> =20
>=20
> As above, I recommend pretty-printing this. It's also missing a comma =
after the "orig" value, and the top-level structure is missing a closing =
brace. The value for "iat" needs to be enclosed in quotes.
>=20
> The NANPA has allocated NPA55501xx for example use, not NPA555xxxx, =
much of which remains assignable =
(cf<https://www.nationalnanpa.com/pdf/NRUF/ATIS-0300115.pdf> =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.nationalnanpa.=
com_pdf_NRUF_ATIS-2D0300115.pdf&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DLFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=3D=
G9v8uCSSQhCmpw7ItG0r2g&m=3DslKIBY37y8p4iC3JgjuwD1TI9OgW7QTHWzmJVyqyJNg&s=3D=
j5qBjswSQA0ysoO_pLKTUdCkKPLbwR6Q-gg8AbaBcFM&e=3D>).
>=20
> Putting all this together, I believe what you want is:
>=20
> {
>   "orig":{"tn":"12155550112 <tel:(215)%20555-0112>"},
>   "dest":{["tn":"12125550113 <tel:(212)%20555-0113>"]},
>   "iat":"1443208345",
>   "rph":{"auth":["ets.0","wps.0"]}
> }
>=20
> =20
>=20
>=20
>    After the header and claims PASSporT objects have been constructed,
>    their signature is generated normally per the guidance in
>    [I-D.ietf-stir-passport] using the full form of PASSPorT.  The
>    credentials (e.g., authority responsible for authorizing Resource-
>    Priority) used to create the signature must have authority over the
>    "rph" claim and there is only one authority per claim.  The =
authority
>    MUST use its credentials (i.e., CERT) associated with the specific
>    service supported by the SIP namespace in the claim.
>=20
> 4.  'rph' in SIP
>=20
>    This section specifies SIP-specific usage for the "rph" claim in
>    PASSporT.
>=20
> 4.1.  Authentication Service Behavior
>=20
>    The Authentication Service will create the "rph" claim using the
>    values discussed in section 3 based on [RFC4412].  The construction
>    of "rph" claim follows the steps described in Section 4 of
>    [I-D.ietf-stir-rfc4474bis].
>=20
>    The resulting Identity header for "rph" might look as follows:
> =20
>=20
> "...header field..."
>=20
> =20
>=20
>=20
>    "eyJhbGciOiJFUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJpc3MiOiJleUowZVhBaU9pSnd
>    ZWE56Y0c5eWRDSXNEUW9pY0hCMElqb2ljbkJvSWl3TkNpSmhiR2NpT2lKRlV6STFO
>    aUlzRFFvaWVEVjFJanBvZEhSd2N6b3ZMM2QzZHk1bGVHRnRjR3hsTG1OdmJTOWpaW
>    EowTG1ObGNuME5DZzBLIHx84oCZLuKAmXx8IGV5QWliM0pwWnlJNmV5SjBiaUk2SW
>    pFeU1UVTFOVFV4TWpFeUluME5DaUprWlhOMElqcDdXeUowYmlJNklqRXlNVEkxTlR
>    VeE1qRXpJbDE5TEEwS0ltbGhkQ0k2TVRRME16SXdPRE0wTlN3TkNpSnljR2dpT25z
>    aVlYVjBhQ0k2V3lKbGRITXVNQ0lzSW5kd2N5NHdJbDE5RFFvPSJ9.s37S6VC8HM6D
>    l6YzJeQDsrZcwJ0lizxhUrA7f_98oWBHvo-cl-n8MIhoCr18vYYFy3blXvs3fslM_
>    oos2P2Dyw"; info=3D "https://www.example.org/cert.cer" =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.example.org_ce=
rt.cer&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DLFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=3DG9v8uCSSQhCmpw7ItG0r2g&m=3D=
slKIBY37y8p4iC3JgjuwD1TI9OgW7QTHWzmJVyqyJNg&s=3DWTTuDmy39i2zI3icMHo82cqRGa=
XjzHywIgBAIK1oqCU&e=3D>;alg=3DES256;
>    ppt=3D"rph"
> =20
>=20
> This example has a number of issues:
>=20
> In the Identity header field, the signed-identity-digest shouldn't be =
quoted.=20
> In the Identity header field, info is enclosed in <> rather than "".=20=

> In the Identity header field, ppt is a token rather than a quoted =
string.=20
> The signed-identity-digest header needs to indicate a "typ" of =
"passport" rather than JWT, and it needs to include both a "ppt" and =
"x5u" field.
> The signed-identity-digest body should contain only the passport claim =
rather than a JSON object that itself contains a base64-encoded JWS =
header concatenated with a claim.
> I believe that, even when the body is included, values in the header =
and body need to be be canonicalized (i.e., all on one line, no spaces, =
in alphabetical order, etc.)
> I would also recommend following the convention of indicating that =
line-wraps are only for readability, and including the header field name =
in the example. Putting all this together, I believe what you want is:
>=20
>    For example, a Identity header field for "rph" might look
>    as follows (backslashes shown for line folding only):
>=20
>    Identity: eyJhbGciOiJFUzI1NiIsInBwdCI6InJwaCIsInR5cCI6InBhc3Nwb3J0I =
\
>    iwieDV1IjoiaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZXhhbXBsZS5jb20vY2VydC5jZXIifQo.eyJkZXN0 =
\
>    Ijp7WyJ0biI6IjEyMTI1NTUwMTEzIl19LCJpYXQiOiIxNDQzMjA4MzQ1Iiwib3JpZyI =
\
>    6eyJ0biI6IjEyMTU1NTUwMTEyIn0sInJwaCI6eyJhdXRoIjpbImV0cy4wIiwid3BzLj =
\
>    AiXX19Cg.s37S6VC8HM6Dl6YzJeQDsrZcwJ0lizxhUrA7f_98oWBHvo-cl-n8MIhoCr =
\
>    18vYYFy3blXvs3fslM_oos2P2Dyw;info=3D<https://www.example.org/cert.cer=
 =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.example.org_ce=
rt.cer&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DLFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=3DG9v8uCSSQhCmpw7ItG0r2g&m=3D=
slKIBY37y8p4iC3JgjuwD1TI9OgW7QTHWzmJVyqyJNg&s=3DWTTuDmy39i2zI3icMHo82cqRGa=
XjzHywIgBAIK1oqCU&e=3D> \
>    >;alg=3DES256;ppt=3Drph
>=20
> (Note: this example assumes the calling and called party numbers in =
the previous example are changed to 12155550112 =
<tel:(215)%20555-0112>and 12155550113 <tel:(215)%20555-0113>, =
respectively)
>=20
> =20
>=20
>=20
>    A SIP authentication service typically will derive the value of =
"rph"
>    from the 'Resource-Priority' header field based on policy =
associated
>    with service specific use of the "namespace "." r-priority" values
>    based on [RFC4412].  The authentication service derives the value =
of
>    the PASSPorT claim by verifying the authorization for Resource-
>    Priority (i.e., verifying a calling user privilege for Resource-
>    Priority based on its identity) which might be derived from =
customer
>    profile data or from access to external services.
>=20
>    [RFC4412] allows multiple "namespace "." r-priority" pairs, either =
in
>    a single SIP Resource-Priority header or across multiple SIP
> =20
>=20
> Single quotes around 'Resource-Priority'.
>=20
> "...header field..."
>=20
> =20
>=20
>    Resource-Priority headers.  However, it is not necessary to sign =
all
> =20
>=20
> Single quotes around 'Resource-Priority'.
>=20
> "...header fields..."
>=20
> =20
>=20
>    content of a SIP Resource-Priority header or all SIP Resource-
> =20
>=20
> Single quotes around 'Resource-Priority'.
>=20
> "...header field..."
>=20
> =20
>=20
>    Priority headers in a given SIP message.  An authority is only
> =20
>=20
> Single quotes around 'Resource-Priority'.
>=20
> "...header fields..."
>=20
> =20
>=20
>    responsible for signing the content of a SIP Resource-Priority =
header
> =20
>=20
> Single quotes around 'Resource-Priority'.
>=20
> "...header field..."
>=20
> =20
>=20
>    for which it has authority (e.g., a specific "namespace "."
>    r-priority").
>=20
> 4.2.  Verification Service Behavior
>=20
>    [I-D.ietf-stir-rfc4474bis] Section 6.2 Step 5 requires that
>    specifications defining "ppt" values describe any additional =
verifier
>    behavior.  The behavior specified for the "ppt" values of "rph" is =
as
>    follows:
>=20
>    The verification service MUST extract the value associated with the
>    "auth" key in a full form PASSPorT with a "ppt" value of "rph".  If
>    the signature validates, then the verification service can use the
>    value of the "rph" claim as validation that the calling party is
>    authorized for Resource-Priority, which would in turn be used for
> =20
> Single quotes around 'Resource-Priority'.
>=20
> This text is ambiguous about whether the validation indicates that the =
calling party is authorized to use the priorities indicated in the =
passport object, or the values in the SIP 'Resource-Priority' header =
field; and (taken on its face) implies the latter, when the intention =
here should clearly be the former.
>=20
> "...authorized for 'Resource-Priority' indicated in the claim. This =
value would in turn be used for..."
>=20
> The text also needs to say something about comparing values in the =
claim to values in the 'Resource-Priority' header field, and what a =
mismatch might mean. The document says elsewhere that the signature =
might only cover some of the r-values, which makes it entirely possible =
that the 'Resource-Priority' field might contain more values than are =
signed. On the other hand, intermediaries might reasonably remove =
r-values as the call is processed. This probably means that those =
removed priorities should not be used, even if they are present in the =
passport. It seems reasonable to say that *typical* processing by a =
receiving party would be to take the *union* of all RPH passports that =
they trust, and *intersect* that with the priorities in =
'Resource-Priority' header fields to get the actual priority or =
priorities to be applied to the call (subject to local policy).
>=20
> =20
>=20
>    priority treatment in accordance with local policy for the =
associated
>    communication service.
>=20
>    In addition, [I-D.ietf-stir-rfc4474bis] Section 6.2 Step 4 requires
>    "iat" value in "rph" claim to be verified.
>=20
>    The behavior of a SIP UAs upon receiving an INVITE containing a
> =20
>=20
> "...of a SIP UA upon..."
>=20
> or
>=20
> "...of SIP UAs upon..."
>=20
> =20
>=20
>    PASSporT object with a "rph" claim will largely remain a matter of
>    implementation policy for the specific communication service.  In
>    most cases,implementations would act based on confidence in the
> =20
>=20
> "...cases, implementations..."
>=20
> (space after comma)
>=20
> =20
>=20
>    veracity of this information.  The use of the compact form of
> =20
>=20
> Paragraph break before "The".
>=20
> =20
>=20
>    PASSporT is not specified in this document.
>=20
> 5.  Further Information Associated with Resource-Priority
> =20
>=20
> Single quotes around 'Resource-Priority'.
>=20
> =20
>=20
>=20
>    There may be additional information about the calling party or the
>    call that could be relevant to authorization for Resource-Priority.
> =20
>=20
> Single quotes around 'Resource-Priority'.
>=20
> =20
>=20
>    This may include information related to the device subscription of
>    the caller, or to any institutions that the caller or device is
>    associated with, or even categories of institutions.  All of these
>    data elements would benefit from the secure attestations provided =
by
>    the STIR and PASSporT frameworks.  The specification of the "rph"
>    claim could entail the optional presence of one or more such
>    additional information fields.
>=20
>    A new IANA registry has been defined to hold potential values of =
the
>    "rph" array; see Section 6.2.  The definition of the "rph" claim =
may
>    have one or more such additional information field(s).  Details of
>    such "rph" claim to encompass other data elements are left for =
future
>    version of this specification.
>=20
> 6.  IANA Considerations
>=20
> 6.1.  JSON Web Token Claims Registration
> =20
>=20
> I think there's some confusion here. You're registering a PASSporT ppt =
value, not a new JWT claim. That is to say, you're adding an entry to =
this table:
>=20
> https://www.iana.org/assignments/passport/passport.xhtml =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iana.org_assig=
nments_passport_passport.xhtml&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DLFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=3DG=
9v8uCSSQhCmpw7ItG0r2g&m=3DslKIBY37y8p4iC3JgjuwD1TI9OgW7QTHWzmJVyqyJNg&s=3D=
XHIsWMuytA6Mju6miEzVpnt0D4ZxkABTSvJ-jfcYuTU&e=3D>
> Not to this table:
>=20
> https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iana.org_assig=
nments_jwt_jwt.xhtml&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DLFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=3DG9v8uCSSQhC=
mpw7ItG0r2g&m=3DslKIBY37y8p4iC3JgjuwD1TI9OgW7QTHWzmJVyqyJNg&s=3DAzmjfo546Y=
HWk9r4HQWdEB5PjY9NxAP8lluWfa6f_B4&e=3D>
> You would only use the second table if you had a new key to add to the =
PASSporT header -- this specification does not do that.
>=20
> This section also needs some introductory text to let the IANA know =
exactly what to do; e.g. "This document registers a new value for the =
"Personal Assertion Token (PASSporT) Extensions" table.
>=20
>=20
>    o  ppt value: "rph"
>=20
>    o  Specification Document(s): Section 3 of [RFCThis]
>=20
> 6.2.  PASSporT 'rph' Types
>=20
>    This document requests that the IANA add a new entry to the =
PASSporT
>    Types registry for the type "rph" which is specified in [RFCThis].
> =20
>=20
> There isn't an IANA table called "PASSporT Types." I presume this is =
the registration we just discussed in section 6.1, and so the above two =
lines can be removed.
>=20
> =20
>=20
>    This specification also requests that the IANA create a new =
registry
>    for PASSporT "rph" types.  Registration of new PASSporT "rph" types
>    shall be under the specification required policy.  This registry is
>    to be initially populated with a single value for "auth" which is
>    specified in [RFCThis].
> =20
>=20
> This needs to be very clear about the fields to be included in this =
new registry (e.g., "Registry entries must contain two fields: the name =
of the 'rph' type and the specification in which the type is =
described").
>=20
> =20
>=20
>=20
> 7.  Security Considerations
>=20
>    The security considerations discussed in [I-D.ietf-stir-rfc4474bis]
>    in Section 10 are applicable here.
>=20
> 7.1.  Avoidance of replay and cut and paste attacks
>=20
>    The PASSporT extension with a "ppt" value of "rph" MUST only be =
sent
>    with SIP INVITE when 'Resource-Priority' header is used to convey =
the
> =20
>=20
> "...header field..."
>=20
> =20
>=20
>    priority of the communication as defined in [RFC4412].  To avoid =
the
>    replay, and cut and paste attacks, the procedures described in
>    Section 10.1 of [I-D.ietf-stir-rfc4474bis] MUST be followed.
>=20
> 7.2.  Solution Considerations
>=20
>    The use of extension to PASSporT tokens with "ppt" value "rph" =
based
>    on the validation of the digital signature and the associated
>    certificate requires consideration of the authentication and
>    authority or reputation of the signer to attest to the identity =
being
>    asserted.  The following considerations should be recognized when
>    using PASSporT extension with "ppt" value of "rph":
>=20
>    o  An authority (signer) is only allowed to sign the content of a =
SIP
>       'Resource-Priority' header for which it has the right authority.
> =20
>=20
> "...header field..."
>=20
> =20
>=20
>       The authority that signs the token MUST have a secure method for
>       authentication of the end user or the device.
>=20
>    o  The verification of the signature MUST include means of =
verifying
>       that the signer is authoritative for the signed content of the =
SIP
> =20
>=20
> It's not clear what authority is being claimed here. Is this supposed =
to mean something like "...verifying that the signer is authoritative =
for the originating tn in the PASSporT..."? Or "...authoritative for the =
resource priority namespace in the PASSporT?" Whatever the server is =
purportedly authoritative for needs to be clearly spelled out.
>=20
> =20
>=20
>       'Resource-Priority' header.
> =20
>=20
> "...header field."
>=20
> =20
>=20
> /a=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> stir mailing list
> stir@ietf.org <mailto:stir@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_stir&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3DLFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&r=3DG9v8uCSSQhCmpw7=
ItG0r2g&m=3DslKIBY37y8p4iC3JgjuwD1TI9OgW7QTHWzmJVyqyJNg&s=3Du6QCrnmkjzqxu6=
Q3ZTM6MCUPPjwXFbiYnRRtMpZTX6I&e=3D>
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> stir mailing list
> stir@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir


--Apple-Mail=_FDB3C203-A874-46AA-B9E5-280DCB7E14F2
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">A =
PASSporT can only be signed by one authority and that authority needs to =
only be an authority of the context of the assertion being made by the =
PASSporT. &nbsp;For RPH, the assertion is the association of the rph =
claim to the telephone call with to/from/date. &nbsp;This is not to be =
confused with SHAKEN which the authority of the assertion is around the =
caller-id at origination. &nbsp;These are completely different concepts =
and shouldn=E2=80=99t be correlated. &nbsp;Just because =E2=80=9Corig=E2=80=
=9D is in the claim for RPH doesn=E2=80=99t necessarily mean that RPH =
signer has authority for it, it=E2=80=99s purely to associate the RPH =
code with the specific call details.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">-Chris<br class=3D""><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Feb =
5, 2018, at 10:58 AM, DOLLY, MARTIN C &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:md3135@att.com" class=3D"">md3135@att.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Christer,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">It does not need =
to.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Regards,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Martin<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; =
border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: =
3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:=
 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Christer Holmberg [<a =
href=3D"mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Monday, February 05, 2018 =
10:20 AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Julio Martinez-Minguito =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:julio.martinez-minguito@ericsson.com" =
class=3D"">julio.martinez-minguito@ericsson.com</a>&gt;; Singh, Ray P =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsingh@vencorelabs.com" =
class=3D"">rsingh@vencorelabs.com</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org" class=3D"">stir@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>DOLLY, MARTIN C &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:md3135@att.com" class=3D"">md3135@att.com</a>&gt;; Subir =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:subirdas21@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">subirdas21@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Adam Roach &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:adam@nostrum.com" class=3D"">adam@nostrum.com</a>&gt;; =
STIR Chairs &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stir-chairs@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">stir-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-stir-rph.all@tools.ietf.org" =
class=3D"">draft-ietf-stir-rph.all@tools.ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>RE: [stir] AD Review: =
draft-ietf-stir-rph-02 - authority to assert the callers identity =
assumed?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Hi,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Related to this: how does the verifier know what claim(s) in =
a PASSPorT the signer had authority to sign?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Regards,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-GB" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Christer<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><a =
name=3D"_MailEndCompose" class=3D""></a><span lang=3D"EN-GB" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Julio =
Martinez-Minguito<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>05 February 2018 17:12<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Christer Holmberg &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">christer.holmberg@ericsson.com</a>&gt;; Singh, Ray P &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rsingh@vencorelabs.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">rsingh@vencorelabs.com</a>&gt;;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">stir@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>DOLLY, MARTIN C &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:md3135@att.com" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">md3135@att.com</a>&gt;; Subir &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:subirdas21@gmail.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">subirdas21@gmail.com</a>&gt;; =
Adam Roach &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adam@nostrum.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">adam@nostrum.com</a>&gt;; =
STIR Chairs &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stir-chairs@ietf.org" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">stir-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-stir-rph.all@tools.ietf.org" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">draft-ietf-stir-rph.all@tools.ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>RE: [stir] AD Review: =
draft-ietf-stir-rph-02 - authority to assert the callers identity =
assumed?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-GB" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hi,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">If the PASSporT with =
extension ppt:rph only has authority over the rph claim, does it mean =
that we need another PASSporT in the signaling to claim authority over =
the =E2=80=98orig=E2=80=99 number?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Should there be =
nested PASSporTs?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Regards, Julio<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; =
border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; =
border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: =
3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:=
 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Christer Holmberg [<a =
href=3D"mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>den=
 5 februari 2018 07:38<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Singh, Ray P &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rsingh@vencorelabs.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">rsingh@vencorelabs.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>DOLLY, MARTIN C &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:md3135@att.com" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">md3135@att.com</a>&gt;; Subir &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:subirdas21@gmail.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">subirdas21@gmail.com</a>&gt;;<span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">stir@ietf.org</a>; Adam Roach &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:adam@nostrum.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">adam@nostrum.com</a>&gt;; STIR =
Chairs &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stir-chairs@ietf.org" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">stir-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-stir-rph.all@tools.ietf.org" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">draft-ietf-stir-rph.all@tools.ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [stir] AD Review: =
draft-ietf-stir-rph-02 - authority to assert the callers identity =
assumed?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D"">Hi,<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">I think the =
reason why =E2=80=98orig=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98dest=E2=80=99 are =
required in every PASSPorT should be explained the the PASSPorT =
document, in my opinion. It is not specific to the RPH extension.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">Not sure =
how =E2=80=98orig=E2=80=99 can be used to identify a call. You can have =
multiple calls with the same =E2=80=98orig=E2=80=99 value, can=E2=80=99t =
you?&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">Regards,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">Christer<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D"">Sent from my iPhone<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times =
New Roman&quot;, serif;"><br class=3D"">On 4 Feb 2018, at 21.45, Singh, =
Ray P &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsingh@vencorelabs.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">rsingh@vencorelabs.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">All,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Yes, the claim is only for the RPH. The"orig" =
and "dest" is included so that the RPH claim can be correlated to the =
call.&nbsp; We can add some clarification text to indicate that "orig" =
is only included so that the RPH claim can be correlated to a specific =
call, and that the signer of the RPH claim may no have authority of the =
"orig" TN.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Thanks<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Ray<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif; =
text-align: center;"><span style=3D"" class=3D""><hr size=3D"3" =
width=3D"100%" align=3D"center" class=3D""></span></div><div =
id=3D"divRpF694658" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;"><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>stir [<a =
href=3D"mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">stir-bounces@ietf.org</a>] on =
behalf of DOLLY, MARTIN C [<a href=3D"mailto:md3135@att.com" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">md3135@att.com</a>]<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Sunday, February 04, 2018 =
7:05 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Subir; Christer Holmberg<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">stir@ietf.org</a>; Adam Roach; STIR Chairs;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-stir-rph.all@tools.ietf.org" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">draft-ietf-stir-rph.all@tools.ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [stir] AD Review: =
draft-ietf-stir-rph-02 - authority to assert the callers identity =
assumed?</span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">We only have one =
claim and that is the RPH</span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, =
225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Subir [<a =
href=3D"mailto:subirdas21@gmail.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:subirdas21@gmail.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Sunday, February 04, 2018 =
5:56 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Christer Holmberg &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">christer.holmberg@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Adam =
Roach &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adam@nostrum.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">adam@nostrum.com</a>&gt;; STIR =
Chairs &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stir-chairs@ietf.org" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">stir-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">stir@ietf.org</a>;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-stir-rph.all@tools.ietf.org" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">draft-ietf-stir-rph.all@tools.ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [stir] AD Review: =
draft-ietf-stir-rph-02 - authority to assert the callers identity =
assumed?</span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D""><br class=3D"">We can add =
some texts to clarify that in the next version. The point is that in =
some use cases service provider may have the authority to &nbsp;other =
claims such as 'orig' and in other cases it may not have. &nbsp;We can =
add a may statement clarifying this or explicitly say that it is not =
required to have authority to other claims.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">Thanks,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">Subir&nbsp;<br=
 class=3D"">Sent from my iPhone<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;"><span style=3D"" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">On Feb 4, 2018, at 10:03 PM, Christer Holmberg &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">christer.holmberg@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Hi,</span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">The text =
says:</span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9CThe=
 credentials (e.g., authority responsible for authorizing =
Resource-</span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; Priority) =
used to create the signature must have authority over the</span><span =
style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; namespace of the "rph" claim and there is only =
one authority per</span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
claim.=E2=80=9D</span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">If the credentials =
don=E2=80=99t need to have authority of the other claims (e.g., =
=E2=80=9Corig=E2=80=9D) in the RPH PASSPorT I think you should =
explicitly say so.</span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Regards,</span><span =
style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Christer</span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:=
 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Subir Das [<a =
href=3D"mailto:subirdas21@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:subirdas21@gmail.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>02 =
February 2018 01:04<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Christer Holmberg &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">christer.holmberg@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Adam =
Roach &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adam@nostrum.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">adam@nostrum.com</a>&gt;; STIR Chairs &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:stir-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">stir-chairs@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">stir@ietf.org</a>;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-stir-rph.all@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">draft-ietf-stir-rph.all@tools.ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [stir] AD Review: =
draft-ietf-stir-rph-02 - authority to assert the callers identity =
assumed?</span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">Hello Christer,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">The signing entity does not have always the =
authority to assert the caller identity in rph. We are submitting ver-03 =
draft&nbsp; and it is clarified&nbsp; as follows:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">"The credentials (e.g., authority responsible for authorizing =
Resource-Priority) used to create the signature must have authority over =
the namespace of the=E2=80=9Crph" claim.."<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">-Subir</span><span style=3D"" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 3:27 PM, Christer Holmberg =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">christer.holmberg@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, =
204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Hi,</span><span =
style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Another question for clarification.</span><span style=3D"" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Section 3 contains the =
following example:</span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; { =
"orig":{"tn":"</span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"tel:(215)%20555-1212" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">12155551212</span></a></span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">"}</span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
"dest":{["tn":"</span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"tel:(212)%20555-1213" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">12125551213</span></a></span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">"]},</span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
"iat":1443208345,</span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
"rph":{"auth":["ets.0","wps.0"]}</span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">=E2=80=A6and the =
following text:</span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9CThe=
 credentials (e.g., authority responsible for authorizing =
Resource-</span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; Priority) =
used to create the signature must have authority over the</span><span =
style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; "rph" claim=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D</span><span =
style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><a =
name=3D"m_-2938747906123203494__MailEndCompose" class=3D""></a><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Since the claim also contains =E2=80=9Corig=E2=80=9D, is the =
assumption that the signing entity always also has authority to assert =
the callers identity? I think it would be good to explicitly mention =
it.</span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Regards,</span><span =
style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Christer</span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, =
225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>stir =
[mailto:</span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">stir-bounces@ietf.org</span></a></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">]<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b =
class=3D"">On Behalf Of<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Adam Roach<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>20 January 2018 00:15<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>STIR Chairs =
&lt;</span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:stir-chairs@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">stir-chairs@ietf.org</span></a></span><span style=3D"font-size:=
 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&gt;;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"" =
class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">stir@ietf.org</span></a></span><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span style=3D"" =
class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-stir-rph.all@tools.ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">draft-ietf-stir-rph.all@tools.ietf.org</span></a></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[stir] AD Review: =
draft-ietf-stir-rph-02</span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">I'm doing my AD review of draft-ietf-stir-rph-02. Thanks to =
everyone who has worked on this document, and the authors and chairs in =
particular.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D""=
 class=3D"">The technical content here looks generally good to me. I'd =
like to see a few issues addressed before IETF LC. In short sumary:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><ul type=3D"disc" style=3D"margin-bottom: =
0in; margin-top: 0in;" class=3D""><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;">The validation section needs to add a discussion of =
how to treat calls when the priority values in "rph" passports and SIP =
"Resource-Priority" header fields aren't 100% identical.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;">The examples need some adjustment.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;">There is a minor point of ambiguity in the Security Section, but =
this should be easy to fix, as long as the WG knows what was =
intended.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;">The IANA actions need a little bit =
of adjustment.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;">There are a number of minor editorial issues to be cleaned =
up.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li></ul><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">Detailed comments on these points are inline in the document =
below. I've removed some portions of the document on which I have no =
comments.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt=
 style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">Abstract</tt><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
This document extends the STIR PASSporT specification to allow =
the</tt></span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">"...the Secure Telephone Identity Revisited (STIR) =
Personal Assertion Token (PASSporT) specification defined in RFC =
8122..."<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">(See<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.rfc-2De=
ditor.org_materials_abbrev.expansion.txt&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DLFYZ-o9_HU=
MeMTSQicvjIg&amp;r=3DG9v8uCSSQhCmpw7ItG0r2g&amp;m=3DslKIBY37y8p4iC3JgjuwD1=
TI9OgW7QTHWzmJVyqyJNg&amp;s=3DiBTAhwN517BNArmj8bb8Uat3LAIfSqEb3OzuqHOl6ko&=
amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" =
class=3D"">&lt;https://www.rfc-editor.org/materials/abbrev.expansion.txt&g=
t;</a><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>for guidance on =
abbreviations)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; inclusion of cryptographically-signed assertions =
of authorization for</span></tt><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
the values populated in the SIP 'Resource-Priority' header =
field,</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; which is used for communications =
resource prioritization.</tt><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">...</tt><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">1.&nbsp; Introduction</tt><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; PASSporT [I-D.ietf-stir-passport] is a token =
format based on JWT</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; [RFC7519] for =
conveying cryptographically-signed information about</tt><br =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; the identities involved in personal =
communications; it is used with</tt><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
STIR [I-D.ietf-stir-rfc4474bis] to convey a signed assertion of =
the</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; identity of the participants in =
real-time communications established</tt><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
via a protocol like SIP.&nbsp; This specification extends PASSporT =
to</tt></span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">"...like SIP [RFC3261]..."<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">(We =
want to cite SIP the first time it is mentioned)<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; allow cryptographic-signing of the SIP =
'Resource-Priority' header</span></tt><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
field defined in [RFC4412].</tt><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
[RFC4412] defines the SIP 'Resource-Priority' header field for</tt><br =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; communications Resource Priority.&nbsp; As =
specified in [RFC4412], the</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; 'Resource-Priority' =
header field may be used by SIP user agents</tt><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
[RFC3261], including, Public Switched Telephone Network =
(PSTN)</tt></span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">"...including Public Switched..."<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">(remove the comma)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
gateways and terminals, and SIP proxy servers to =
influence</span></tt><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">"...and by SIP proxy servers, to influence..."<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">(add=
 "by" and comma)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; prioritization afforded to communication =
sessions,including PSTN</span></tt><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">"...sessions, including..."<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">(space after comma)<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; calls.&nbsp; However, the SIP =
'Resource-Priority' header field could be</span></tt><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; spoofed and abused by unauthorized =
entities.</tt><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; The STIR architecture =
[RFC7340]assumes that an authority on the</tt></span><span style=3D"" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">"...STIR architecture [RFC7340] assumes..."<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">(space before "assumes")<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
originating side of a call provides a cryptographic assurance of =
the</span></tt><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
validity of the calling party number in order to prevent</tt><br =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; impersonation attacks.&nbsp; The STIR =
architecture allows extension that</tt></span><span style=3D"" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">"...allows extensions..."<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; can =
be utilized by authorities supporting real-time =
communication</span></tt><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
services using the 'Resource-Priority' header field to</tt><br =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; cryptographically sign the SIP =
'Resource-Priority' header field and</tt><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
convey assertion of the authorization for 'Resource-Priority'.&nbsp; =
For</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; example, the authority on the =
originating side verifying the</tt><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
authorization of a particular communication for Resource-Priority =
can</tt></span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">Single quotes around 'Resource-Priority'.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; use a PASSPorT claim to cryptographically-sign =
the SIP 'Resource-</span></tt><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">"...cryptographically sign..."<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; Priority' header field and convey an assertion =
of the authorization</span></tt><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
for 'Resource-Priority'.&nbsp; This will allow a receiving =
entity</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; (including entities located in =
different network domains/boundaries)</tt><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
to verify the validity of assertions authorizing =
Resource-Priority.</tt></span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">Single quotes around 'Resource-Priority'.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; Cryptographically-signed SIP 'Resource-Priority' =
headers will allow a</span></tt><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">"...cryptographically signed SIP =
'Resource-Priority' header fields..."<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">(remove hyphen, and replace =
"headers" with "header fields")<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
receiving entity to verify and act on the information with =
confidence</span></tt><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
that the information have not been spoofed or =
compromised.</tt></span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">"...has not been spoofed or compromised."<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt=
 style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
This specification documents an optional extension to PASSporT =
and</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; the associated STIR mechanisms to =
provide a function to sign the SIP</tt><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
'Resource-Priority' header field.&nbsp; This PASSporT object is used =
to</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; provide attestation of a calling =
user authorization for priority</tt><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
communications.&nbsp; This is necessary in addition to the PASSporT =
object</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; that is used for calling user =
telephone number attestation.&nbsp; How the</tt><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
optional extension to PASSporT is used for real-time =
communications</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; supported using SIP =
'Resource-Priority' header field is defined in</tt><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
other documents and is outside the scope of this =
document.</tt></span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">I assume these other documents are under =
development? If so, they should be cited here.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt=
 style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">2.&nbsp; =
Terminology</tt><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; The key words "MUST", =
"MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT",</tt><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
"SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in =
this</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; document are to be interpreted as =
described in RFC 2119 [RFC2119].</tt></span><span style=3D"" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">This=
 document has several non-normative uses of "must", "should," and "may," =
and so it needs to use the RFC8174 boilerplate instead of the RFC2119 =
boilerplate.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt=
 style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">3.&nbsp; =
PASSporT 'rph' Claim</tt><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
This specification defines a new JSON Web Token claim for "rph",</tt><br =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; which provides an assertion for information in =
SIP 'Resource-</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Priority'header.</tt></span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">"...Priority' header field."<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">(space after closing quotation mark, "header field" instead =
of "header")<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt=
 style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
The creator of a PASSporT object adds a "ppt" value of "rph" to =
the</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; header of a PASSporT object, in =
which case the PASSporT claims MUST</tt><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
contain a "rph" claim, and any entities verifying the PASSporT =
object</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; will be required to understand the =
"ppt" extension in order to</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; process the PASSporT =
in question.&nbsp; A PASSPorT header with the "ppt"</tt><br class=3D""><tt=
 style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
included will look as follows:</tt><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
{&nbsp; "typ":"passport",</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
"ppt":"rph",</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "alg":"ES256",</tt><br =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "x5u":</tt></span><span style=3D"" =
class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.example=
.org_cert.cer&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DLFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&amp;r=3DG9v8uC=
SSQhCmpw7ItG0r2g&amp;m=3DslKIBY37y8p4iC3JgjuwD1TI9OgW7QTHWzmJVyqyJNg&amp;s=
=3DWTTuDmy39i2zI3icMHo82cqRGaXjzHywIgBAIK1oqCU&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank"=
 style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">"https://www.example.org/cert.cer"</span></a></span><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" class=3D"">}</span></tt><span style=3D"" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">Ideally, this would be either pretty-printed or =
canonicalized. Since it's too long to fit on a line in canonical form, I =
propose:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" class=3D"">{</span></tt><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp; "typ":"passport",</tt><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
"ppt":"rph",</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp; "alg":"ES256",</tt><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
"x5u":</tt></span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.example=
.org_cert.cer&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DLFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&amp;r=3DG9v8uC=
SSQhCmpw7ItG0r2g&amp;m=3DslKIBY37y8p4iC3JgjuwD1TI9OgW7QTHWzmJVyqyJNg&amp;s=
=3DWTTuDmy39i2zI3icMHo82cqRGaXjzHywIgBAIK1oqCU&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank"=
 style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">"https://www.example.org/cert.cer"</span></a></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">}</tt></span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt=
 style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
The "rph" claim will provide an assertion of =
authorization,"auth",</tt></span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">"...authorization, "auth", ..."<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">(space between comma and opening quotation mark)<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; for information in the SIP "Resource-Priority" =
header field (i.e.,</span></tt><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Resource-Priority: namespace "." r-priority) based on =
[RFC4412].</tt></span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">The use of the string 'namespace "." r-priority' =
here and elsewhere in the document has a detrimental impact on =
readability. I strongly suggest replacing it with "r-value" (the name of =
this production in RFC4412) everywhere.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Specifically, the "rph" claim includes assertion of the =
priority-</span></tt><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
level of the user to be used for a given communication session.&nbsp; =
The</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; value of the "rph" claim is an array =
containing one or more of JSON</tt><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
objects for the content of the SIP 'Resource-Priority' header that =
is</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; being asserted of which one of the =
"rph" object, is mandatory.</tt></span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">This last sentence is very hard to parse; and =
(based on the example) the value is intended to be a JSON Object (curly =
braces) rather than a JSON Array (square braces). I suggest: 'The value =
of the "rph" claim is an Object with one or more keys. Each key is =
associated with a JSON Array. These arrays contain Strings that =
correspond to the r-values indicated in the SIP "Resource-Priority" =
header field.' (note: "header field", not "header")<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt=
 style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
The following is an example "rph" claim for a SIP =
"Resource-Priority"</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; header field with a =
"namespace "." r-priority" value of "ets.0" and</tt><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
with a "namespace "." r-priority" value of "wps.0".</tt><br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; { "orig":{"tn":"</tt></span><span style=3D""=
 class=3D""><a href=3D"tel:(215)%20555-1212" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">12155551212</span></a></span><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" =
class=3D"">"}</span></tt><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "dest":{["tn":"</tt></span><span =
style=3D"" class=3D""><a href=3D"tel:(212)%20555-1213" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">12125551213</span></a></span><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" =
class=3D"">"]},</span></tt><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "iat":1443208345,</tt><br =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
"rph":{"auth":["ets.0","wps.0"]}</tt></span><span style=3D"" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">As =
above, I recommend pretty-printing this. It's also missing a comma after =
the "orig" value, and the top-level structure is missing a closing =
brace. The value for "iat" needs to be enclosed in quotes.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">The =
NANPA has allocated NPA55501xx for example use, not NPA555xxxx, much of =
which remains assignable (cf<a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.nationa=
lnanpa.com_pdf_NRUF_ATIS-2D0300115.pdf&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DLFYZ-o9_HUMe=
MTSQicvjIg&amp;r=3DG9v8uCSSQhCmpw7ItG0r2g&amp;m=3DslKIBY37y8p4iC3JgjuwD1TI=
9OgW7QTHWzmJVyqyJNg&amp;s=3Dj5qBjswSQA0ysoO_pLKTUdCkKPLbwR6Q-gg8AbaBcFM&am=
p;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" =
class=3D"">&lt;https://www.nationalnanpa.com/pdf/NRUF/ATIS-0300115.pdf&gt;=
</a>).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">Putting all this together, I believe what you want is:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" =
class=3D"">{</span></tt><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
"orig":{"tn":"</tt></span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"tel:(215)%20555-0112" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">12155550112</span></a></span><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" =
class=3D"">"},</span></tt><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
"dest":{["tn":"</tt></span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"tel:(212)%20555-0113" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">12125550113</span></a></span><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" =
class=3D"">"]},</span></tt><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
"iat":"1443208345",</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
"rph":{"auth":["ets.0","wps.0"]}</tt><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">}</tt></span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt=
 style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
After the header and claims PASSporT objects have been =
constructed,</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; their signature is generated =
normally per the guidance in</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
[I-D.ietf-stir-passport] using the full form of PASSPorT.&nbsp; =
The</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; credentials (e.g., authority =
responsible for authorizing Resource-</tt><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Priority) used to create the signature must have authority over =
the</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; "rph" claim and there is only one =
authority per claim.&nbsp; The authority</tt><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
MUST use its credentials (i.e., CERT) associated with the =
specific</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; service supported by the SIP =
namespace in the claim.</tt><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">4.&nbsp; =
'rph' in SIP</tt><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; This section specifies =
SIP-specific usage for the "rph" claim in</tt><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
PASSporT.</tt><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">4.1.&nbsp; Authentication Service =
Behavior</tt><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; The Authentication =
Service will create the "rph" claim using the</tt><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
values discussed in section 3 based on [RFC4412].&nbsp; The =
construction</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; of "rph" claim follows the steps =
described in Section 4 of</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
[I-D.ietf-stir-rfc4474bis].</tt><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
The resulting Identity header for "rph" might look as =
follows:</tt></span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">"...header field..."<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt=
 style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
"eyJhbGciOiJFUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJpc3MiOiJleUowZVhBaU9pSnd</tt><br =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
ZWE56Y0c5eWRDSXNEUW9pY0hCMElqb2ljbkJvSWl3TkNpSmhiR2NpT2lKRlV6STFO</tt><br =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
aUlzRFFvaWVEVjFJanBvZEhSd2N6b3ZMM2QzZHk1bGVHRnRjR3hsTG1OdmJTOWpaW</tt><br =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
EowTG1ObGNuME5DZzBLIHx84oCZLuKAmXx8IGV5QWliM0pwWnlJNmV5SjBiaUk2SW</tt><br =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
pFeU1UVTFOVFV4TWpFeUluME5DaUprWlhOMElqcDdXeUowYmlJNklqRXlNVEkxTlR</tt><br =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
VeE1qRXpJbDE5TEEwS0ltbGhkQ0k2TVRRME16SXdPRE0wTlN3TkNpSnljR2dpT25z</tt><br =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
aVlYVjBhQ0k2V3lKbGRITXVNQ0lzSW5kd2N5NHdJbDE5RFFvPSJ9.s37S6VC8HM6D</tt><br =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
l6YzJeQDsrZcwJ0lizxhUrA7f_98oWBHvo-cl-n8MIhoCr18vYYFy3blXvs3fslM_</tt><br =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; oos2P2Dyw"; info=3D<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></tt></span><span style=3D"" =
class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.example=
.org_cert.cer&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DLFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&amp;r=3DG9v8uC=
SSQhCmpw7ItG0r2g&amp;m=3DslKIBY37y8p4iC3JgjuwD1TI9OgW7QTHWzmJVyqyJNg&amp;s=
=3DWTTuDmy39i2zI3icMHo82cqRGaXjzHywIgBAIK1oqCU&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank"=
 style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">"https://www.example.org/cert.cer"</span></a></span><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" class=3D"">;alg=3DES256;</span></tt><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; ppt=3D"rph"</tt></span><span =
style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">This=
 example has a number of issues:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><ul =
type=3D"disc" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in; margin-top: 0in;" =
class=3D""><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;">In =
the Identity header field, the signed-identity-digest shouldn't be =
quoted.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;">In the Identity header field, info is enclosed in &lt;&gt; =
rather than "".<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;">In the Identity header field, ppt is a token rather than a =
quoted string.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;">The signed-identity-digest header needs to indicate a "typ" of =
"passport" rather than JWT, and it needs to include both a "ppt" and =
"x5u" field.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;">The signed-identity-digest body =
should contain only the passport claim rather than a JSON object that =
itself contains a base64-encoded JWS header concatenated with a =
claim.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;">I believe that, even when the body is included, =
values in the header and body need to be be canonicalized (i.e., all on =
one line, no spaces, in alphabetical order, etc.)<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></li></ul><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">I =
would also recommend following the convention of indicating that =
line-wraps are only for readability, and including the header field name =
in the example. Putting all this together, I believe what you want =
is:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; For example, a =
Identity header field for "rph" might look</span></tt><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; as follows (backslashes shown for =
line folding only):</tt></span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; Identity: =
eyJhbGciOiJFUzI1NiIsInBwdCI6InJwaCIsInR5cCI6InBhc3Nwb3J0I =
\</span></tt><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
iwieDV1IjoiaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZXhhbXBsZS5jb20vY2VydC5jZXIifQo.eyJkZXN0 =
\</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Ijp7WyJ0biI6IjEyMTI1NTUwMTEzIl19LCJpYXQiOiIxNDQzMjA4MzQ1Iiwib3JpZyI =
\</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
6eyJ0biI6IjEyMTU1NTUwMTEyIn0sInJwaCI6eyJhdXRoIjpbImV0cy4wIiwid3BzLj =
\</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
AiXX19Cg.s37S6VC8HM6Dl6YzJeQDsrZcwJ0lizxhUrA7f_98oWBHvo-cl-n8MIhoCr =
\</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
18vYYFy3blXvs3fslM_oos2P2Dyw;info=3D&lt;</tt></span><span style=3D"" =
class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.example=
.org_cert.cer&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DLFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&amp;r=3DG9v8uC=
SSQhCmpw7ItG0r2g&amp;m=3DslKIBY37y8p4iC3JgjuwD1TI9OgW7QTHWzmJVyqyJNg&amp;s=
=3DWTTuDmy39i2zI3icMHo82cqRGaXjzHywIgBAIK1oqCU&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank"=
 style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">https://www.example.org/cert.cer</span></a></span><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>\</span></tt><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt;;alg=3DES256;ppt=3Drph</tt><br =
class=3D""></span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><br class=3D"">(Note: this =
example assumes the calling and called party numbers in the previous =
example are changed to<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"tel:(215)%20555-0112" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">12155550112</a>and<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"tel:(215)%20555-0113" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">12155550113</a>, =
respectively)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt=
 style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
A SIP authentication service typically will derive the value of =
"rph"</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; from the 'Resource-Priority' header =
field based on policy associated</tt><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
with service specific use of the "namespace "." r-priority" =
values</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; based on [RFC4412].&nbsp; The =
authentication service derives the value of</tt><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
the PASSPorT claim by verifying the authorization for Resource-</tt><br =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; Priority (i.e., verifying a calling user =
privilege for Resource-</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; Priority based on its =
identity) which might be derived from customer</tt><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
profile data or from access to external services.</tt><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; [RFC4412] allows multiple "namespace "." =
r-priority" pairs, either in</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; a single SIP =
Resource-Priority header or across multiple SIP</tt></span><span =
style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">Single quotes around 'Resource-Priority'.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">"...header field..."<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Resource-Priority headers.&nbsp; However, it is not necessary to sign =
all</span></tt><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">Single quotes around 'Resource-Priority'.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">"...header fields..."<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
content of a SIP Resource-Priority header or all SIP =
Resource-</span></tt><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">Single quotes around 'Resource-Priority'.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">"...header field..."<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Priority headers in a given SIP message.&nbsp; An authority is =
only</span></tt><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">Single quotes around 'Resource-Priority'.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">"...header fields..."<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
responsible for signing the content of a SIP Resource-Priority =
header</span></tt><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">Single quotes around 'Resource-Priority'.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">"...header field..."<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; for =
which it has authority (e.g., a specific "namespace "."</span></tt><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; r-priority").</tt><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">4.2.&nbsp; Verification Service Behavior</tt><br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; [I-D.ietf-stir-rfc4474bis] Section 6.2 Step 5 =
requires that</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; specifications defining "ppt" values =
describe any additional verifier</tt><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
behavior.&nbsp; The behavior specified for the "ppt" values of "rph" is =
as</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; follows:</tt><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; The verification service MUST extract the value =
associated with the</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; "auth" key in a full =
form PASSPorT with a "ppt" value of "rph".&nbsp; If</tt><br class=3D""><tt=
 style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
the signature validates, then the verification service can use =
the</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; value of the "rph" claim as =
validation that the calling party is</tt><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
authorized for Resource-Priority, which would in turn be used =
for</tt></span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">Single quotes around 'Resource-Priority'.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">This=
 text is ambiguous about whether the validation indicates that the =
calling party is authorized to use the priorities indicated in the =
passport object, or the values in the SIP 'Resource-Priority' header =
field; and (taken on its face) implies the latter, when the intention =
here should clearly be the former.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">"...authorized for =
'Resource-Priority' indicated in the claim. This value would in turn be =
used for..."<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">The text also needs to say something about =
comparing values in the claim to values in the 'Resource-Priority' =
header field, and what a mismatch might mean. The document says =
elsewhere that the signature might only cover some of the r-values, =
which makes it entirely possible that the 'Resource-Priority' field =
might contain more values than are signed. On the other hand, =
intermediaries might reasonably remove r-values as the call is =
processed. This probably means that those removed priorities should not =
be used, even if they are present in the passport. It seems reasonable =
to say that *typical* processing by a receiving party would be to take =
the *union* of all RPH passports that they trust, and *intersect* that =
with the priorities in 'Resource-Priority' header fields to get the =
actual priority or priorities to be applied to the call (subject to =
local policy).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; priority treatment in accordance with local =
policy for the associated</span></tt><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
communication service.</tt><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
In addition, [I-D.ietf-stir-rfc4474bis] Section 6.2 Step 4 =
requires</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; "iat" value in "rph" claim to be =
verified.</tt><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; The behavior of a SIP =
UAs upon receiving an INVITE containing a</tt></span><span style=3D"" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">"...of a SIP UA upon..."<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">or<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">"...of SIP UAs upon..."<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
PASSporT object with a "rph" claim will largely remain a matter =
of</span></tt><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; implementation policy =
for the specific communication service.&nbsp; In</tt><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
most cases,implementations would act based on confidence in =
the</tt></span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">"...cases, implementations..."<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">(space after comma)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
veracity of this information.&nbsp; The use of the compact form =
of</span></tt><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">Paragraph break before "The".<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; PASSporT is not specified in this =
document.</span></tt><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">5.&nbsp; =
Further Information Associated with Resource-Priority</tt></span><span =
style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">Single quotes around 'Resource-Priority'.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt=
 style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
There may be additional information about the calling party or =
the</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; call that could be relevant to =
authorization for Resource-Priority.</tt></span><span style=3D"" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">Single quotes around 'Resource-Priority'.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; This may include information related to the =
device subscription of</span></tt><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
the caller, or to any institutions that the caller or device is</tt><br =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; associated with, or even categories of =
institutions.&nbsp; All of these</tt><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
data elements would benefit from the secure attestations provided =
by</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; the STIR and PASSporT =
frameworks.&nbsp; The specification of the "rph"</tt><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
claim could entail the optional presence of one or more such</tt><br =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; additional information fields.</tt><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; A new IANA registry has been defined =
to hold potential values of the</tt><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
"rph" array; see Section 6.2.&nbsp; The definition of the "rph" claim =
may</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; have one or more such additional =
information field(s).&nbsp; Details of</tt><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
such "rph" claim to encompass other data elements are left for =
future</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; version of this =
specification.</tt><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family:=
 &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">6.&nbsp; IANA =
Considerations</tt><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family:=
 &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">6.1.&nbsp; JSON Web Token Claims =
Registration</tt></span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">I think there's some confusion here. You're =
registering a PASSporT ppt value, not a new JWT claim. That is to say, =
you're adding an entry to this table:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iana.or=
g_assignments_passport_passport.xhtml&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DLFYZ-o9_HUMeM=
TSQicvjIg&amp;r=3DG9v8uCSSQhCmpw7ItG0r2g&amp;m=3DslKIBY37y8p4iC3JgjuwD1TI9=
OgW7QTHWzmJVyqyJNg&amp;s=3DXHIsWMuytA6Mju6miEzVpnt0D4ZxkABTSvJ-jfcYuTU&amp=
;e=3D" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.iana.org/assignments/passport/passport.xhtml</a><o:=
p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">Not to this table:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.iana.or=
g_assignments_jwt_jwt.xhtml&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DLFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&=
amp;r=3DG9v8uCSSQhCmpw7ItG0r2g&amp;m=3DslKIBY37y8p4iC3JgjuwD1TI9OgW7QTHWzm=
JVyqyJNg&amp;s=3DAzmjfo546YHWk9r4HQWdEB5PjY9NxAP8lluWfa6f_B4&amp;e=3D" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">You =
would only use the second table if you had a new key to add to the =
PASSporT header -- this specification does not do that.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">This=
 section also needs some introductory text to let the IANA know exactly =
what to do; e.g. "This document registers a new value for the "Personal =
Assertion Token (PASSporT) Extensions" table.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; ppt value: =
"rph"</tt><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; Specification =
Document(s): Section 3 of [RFCThis]</tt><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">6.2.&nbsp; =
PASSporT 'rph' Types</tt><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
This document requests that the IANA add a new entry to the =
PASSporT</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; Types registry for the type "rph" =
which is specified in [RFCThis].</tt></span><span style=3D"" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">There isn't an IANA table called "PASSporT Types." I presume =
this is the registration we just discussed in section 6.1, and so the =
above two lines can be removed.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; This =
specification also requests that the IANA create a new =
registry</span></tt><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
for PASSporT "rph" types.&nbsp; Registration of new PASSporT "rph" =
types</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; shall be under the specification =
required policy.&nbsp; This registry is</tt><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
to be initially populated with a single value for "auth" which =
is</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; specified in =
[RFCThis].</tt></span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">This needs to be very clear about the fields to be =
included in this new registry (e.g., "Registry entries must contain two =
fields: the name of the 'rph' type and the specification in which the =
type is described").<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt=
 style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">7.&nbsp; =
Security Considerations</tt><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
The security considerations discussed in =
[I-D.ietf-stir-rfc4474bis]</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; in Section 10 are =
applicable here.</tt><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">7.1.&nbsp; =
Avoidance of replay and cut and paste attacks</tt><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; The PASSporT extension with a "ppt" value of =
"rph" MUST only be sent</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; with SIP INVITE when =
'Resource-Priority' header is used to convey the</tt></span><span =
style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">"...header field..."<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
priority of the communication as defined in [RFC4412].&nbsp; To avoid =
the</span></tt><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
replay, and cut and paste attacks, the procedures described in</tt><br =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; Section 10.1 of [I-D.ietf-stir-rfc4474bis] MUST =
be followed.</tt><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">7.2.&nbsp; Solution =
Considerations</tt><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family:=
 &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; The use of extension =
to PASSporT tokens with "ppt" value "rph" based</tt><br class=3D""><tt =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
on the validation of the digital signature and the associated</tt><br =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; certificate requires consideration of the =
authentication and</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; authority or =
reputation of the signer to attest to the identity being</tt><br =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; asserted.&nbsp; The following considerations =
should be recognized when</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; using PASSporT =
extension with "ppt" value of "rph":</tt><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt=
 style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
o&nbsp; An authority (signer) is only allowed to sign the content of a =
SIP</tt><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
'Resource-Priority' header for which it has the right =
authority.</tt></span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">"...header field..."<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The authority that signs the =
token MUST have a secure method for</span></tt><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt=
 style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; authentication of the end user =
or the device.</tt><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family:=
 &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; The =
verification of the signature MUST include means of verifying</tt><br =
class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; that the signer is =
authoritative for the signed content of the SIP</tt></span><span =
style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">It's=
 not clear what authority is being claimed here. Is this supposed to =
mean something like "...verifying that the signer is authoritative for =
the originating tn in the PASSporT..."? Or "...authoritative for the =
resource priority namespace in the PASSporT?" Whatever the server is =
purportedly authoritative for needs to be clearly spelled out.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><tt style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 'Resource-Priority' =
header.</span></tt><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></blockquote><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">"...header field."<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">/a<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times =
New Roman&quot;, serif;"><span style=3D"" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">stir mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">stir@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><a=
 =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_stir&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3DLFYZ-o9_HUMeMTSQicvjIg&amp;=
r=3DG9v8uCSSQhCmpw7ItG0r2g&amp;m=3DslKIBY37y8p4iC3JgjuwD1TI9OgW7QTHWzmJVyq=
yJNg&amp;s=3Du6QCrnmkjzqxu6Q3ZTM6MCUPPjwXFbiYnRRtMpZTX6I&amp;e=3D" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></blockquote></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><=
/div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: =
inline !important;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">stir mailing list</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">stir@ietf.org</a></span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
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display: inline !important;" class=3D""><a =
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class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir</a></span></div></bl=
ockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Chris Wendt <chris-ietf@chriswendt.net>
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Subject: Re: [stir] PASSporT extensions: order of claims
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I would agree with the text, the only caveat i would point out is that =
the extension definition has no choice to the order other than =
alphabetic order, so the order is essentially implied.  So, it=E2=80=99s =
sort of a technicality that maybe we didn=E2=80=99t anticipate, but i =
think technically you are correct.

-Chris

> On Mar 10, 2018, at 8:27 AM, Christer Holmberg =
<christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:
>=20
> Section 8.3 of RFC 8225, that is.
> =C2=A0 <>
> From: stir [mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christer =
Holmberg
> Sent: 10 March 2018 15:26
> To: stir@ietf.org
> Cc: adam@nostrum.com
> Subject: [stir] PASSporT extensions: order of claims
> =20
> Hi,
> =20
> Section  says:
> =20
>    =E2=80=9CSpecifications that define extensions to the PASSporT =
mechanism MUST
>    explicitly specify what claims they include beyond the base set of
>    claims from this document, the order in which they will =
appear,=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D
> =20
> When looking at the extensions we are currently working on:
> =20
> draft-ietf-stir-rph-03
> draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-01
> draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-02
> =20
> =E2=80=A6I don=E2=80=99t see anything about the order in any of the =
documents.
> =20
> I think it would be good to have a dedicated =E2=80=9COrder of =
claims=E2=80=9D section, or something similar, in each extension =
specification.
> =20
> When looking at the examples in the drafts above, it seems like even =
the base claims are in different orders. Not sure whether there is an =
explicit requirement that they need to be in order, thought.
> =20
> Regards,
> =20
> Christer
> =20
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> stir mailing list
> stir@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir


--Apple-Mail=_728C0E68-49AA-4C64-A5FD-8294036A6473
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">I =
would agree with the text, the only caveat i would point out is that the =
extension definition has no choice to the order other than alphabetic =
order, so the order is essentially implied. &nbsp;So, it=E2=80=99s sort =
of a technicality that maybe we didn=E2=80=99t anticipate, but i think =
technically you are correct.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">-Chris<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Mar 10, 2018, at 8:27 AM, =
Christer Holmberg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com" =
class=3D"">christer.holmberg@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Section =
8.3 of RFC 8225, that is.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></a></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>stir [<a =
href=3D"mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Christer =
Holmberg<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>10 March 2018 15:26<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org" class=3D"">stir@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>adam@nostrum.com<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[stir] PASSporT extensions: =
order of claims<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hi,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Section&nbsp; says:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9CSpecifications that define extensions =
to the PASSporT mechanism MUST<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; explicitly specify what =
claims they include beyond the base set of<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; claims from this =
document,<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b =
class=3D"">the order in which they will appear</b>,=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">When =
looking at the extensions we are currently working on:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">draft-ietf-stir-rph-03<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-01<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-02<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">=E2=80=A6I =
don=E2=80=99t see anything about the order in any of the documents.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I think =
it would be good to have a dedicated =E2=80=9COrder of claims=E2=80=9D =
section, or something similar, in each extension specification.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">When =
looking at the examples in the drafts above, it seems like even the base =
claims are in different orders. Not sure whether there is an explicit =
requirement that they need to be in order, thought.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Regards,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Christer<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">stir mailing list</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">stir@ietf.org</a></span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: Chris Wendt <chris-ietf@chriswendt.net>
CC: "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>, "adam@nostrum.com" <adam@nostrum.com>
Thread-Topic: [stir] PASSporT extensions: order of claims
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Subject: Re: [stir] PASSporT extensions: order of claims
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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: Chris Wendt <chris-ietf@chriswendt.net>, "DOLLY, MARTIN C" <md3135@att.com>
CC: Julio Martinez-Minguito <julio.martinez-minguito@ericsson.com>, "Singh, Ray P" <rsingh@vencorelabs.com>, "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-stir-rph.all@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-stir-rph.all@tools.ietf.org>, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>, Subir <subirdas21@gmail.com>, STIR Chairs <stir-chairs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [stir] AD Review: draft-ietf-stir-rph-02 - authority to assert the callers identity assumed?
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Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 18:52:03 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/stir/ur0mWYgu7fg6t087ppkh-naevd0>
Subject: Re: [stir] AD Review: draft-ietf-stir-rph-02 - authority to assert the callers identity assumed?
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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: "Politz, Ken" <Kenneth.Politz@team.neustar>, Chris Wendt <chris-ietf@chriswendt.net>
CC: "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>, "adam@nostrum.com" <adam@nostrum.com>
Thread-Topic: [stir] PASSporT extensions: order of claims
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Subject: Re: [stir] PASSporT extensions: order of claims
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From: "Politz, Ken" <Kenneth.Politz@team.neustar>
To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, Chris Wendt <chris-ietf@chriswendt.net>
CC: "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>, "adam@nostrum.com" <adam@nostrum.com>
Thread-Topic: [stir] PASSporT extensions: order of claims
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Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 19:18:56 +0000
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From: "Politz, Ken" <Kenneth.Politz@team.neustar>
To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, Chris Wendt <chris-ietf@chriswendt.net>
CC: "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>, "adam@nostrum.com" <adam@nostrum.com>
Thread-Topic: [stir] PASSporT extensions: order of claims
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Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 21:35:25 +0000
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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Comments on draft-stir-callback
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Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 07:53:18 +0000
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Subject: [stir] Comments on draft-stir-callback
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--_000_D6C415C72C225christerholmbergericssoncom_
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Hi,

On a high-level, for a =93temporary solution=94, I think this would take qu=
ite a bit of effort to deploy. Shouldn=92t the focus be on getting the "cer=
tificate systems" up and running?

Also, how does this relate to activities like SHAKEN?


Anyway, assuming this would be needed, I have some comments on the protocol=
 parts.

First, even though I do consider myself more pragmatic than purist, I think=
 usage of INVITE, and the usage of error response codes to return the verif=
ication result, is a really ugly hack.

Second, there are also some operational issues with using INVITE:

  1.  Good old forking: The callback/verifying INVITE might get forked, and=
 the terminating agent may receive a non-471/472 response.
  2.  SDP: The draft requires SDP in the INVITE, but at the same time says =
that it=92s not used for anything. If so, why is it mandated? Because offer=
less INVITEs might get rejected? SDP in INVITE might trigger media resource=
s etc to be reserved.
  3.  Section 7.3 talks about attacks by the agent receiving the callback/v=
erifying INVITE, but it does not cover the case where the agent would send =
a 200 OK response =96 which would establish a session and could trigger cha=
rging. Alternatively, the attacker could remove the option-tag and forward =
the request somewhere. All this without the originally called party knowing=
 anything. The terminating agent can of course terminate such =93call" as s=
oon as it gets the 200 OK, but it may already have triggered some charging =
etc.

Third, did the authors consider other mechanisms? For example, is there a r=
eason e.g., SUB/NOT couldn=92t be used for this? It would have none of the =
INVITE issues above (yes, a SUB can also get forked, but the client will re=
ceive NOT from each remote peer).

Finally, it seems like the callback request (whatever SIP method is used) c=
ontains the called party in the From header field. Is there a technical rea=
son why that is needed, or is it just for convenience?

Thanks!

Regards,

Christer

--_000_D6C415C72C225christerholmbergericssoncom_
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Normal (Web)"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"HTML Acronym"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"HTML Address"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"HTML Cite"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"HTML Code"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"HTML Definition"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"HTML Keyboard"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"HTML Preformatted"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"HTML Sample"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"HTML Typewriter"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"HTML Variable"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Normal Table"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"annotation subject"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"No List"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Outline List 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table Simple 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table List 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table List 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table List 7"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table List 8"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table Contemporary"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table Elegant"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Balloon Text"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"39" Name=3D"Table Grid"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" UnhideWhenUsed=3D"true=
" Name=3D"Table Theme"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" Name=3D"Placeholder Te=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"1" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"No=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"60" Name=3D"Light Shading"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"61" Name=3D"Light List"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"62" Name=3D"Light Grid"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"63" Name=3D"Medium Shading 1"/=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"64" Name=3D"Medium Shading 2"/=
>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"65" Name=3D"Medium List 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"66" Name=3D"Medium List 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"67" Name=3D"Medium Grid 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"68" Name=3D"Medium Grid 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"69" Name=3D"Medium Grid 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"70" Name=3D"Dark List"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"71" Name=3D"Colorful Shading"/=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"72" Name=3D"Colorful List"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"73" Name=3D"Colorful Grid"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"60" Name=3D"Light Shading Acce=
nt 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"61" Name=3D"Light List Accent =
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"62" Name=3D"Light Grid Accent =
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"63" Name=3D"Medium Shading 1 A=
ccent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"64" Name=3D"Medium Shading 2 A=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"65" Name=3D"Medium List 1 Acce=
nt 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" SemiHidden=3D"true" Name=3D"Revision"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"34" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"L=
ist Paragraph"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"29" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"Q=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"30" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"I=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"66" Name=3D"Medium List 2 Acce=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"67" Name=3D"Medium Grid 1 Acce=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"68" Name=3D"Medium Grid 2 Acce=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"69" Name=3D"Medium Grid 3 Acce=
nt 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"70" Name=3D"Dark List Accent 1=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"71" Name=3D"Colorful Shading A=
ccent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"72" Name=3D"Colorful List Acce=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"73" Name=3D"Colorful Grid Acce=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"60" Name=3D"Light Shading Acce=
nt 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"61" Name=3D"Light List Accent =
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"62" Name=3D"Light Grid Accent =
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"63" Name=3D"Medium Shading 1 A=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"64" Name=3D"Medium Shading 2 A=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"65" Name=3D"Medium List 1 Acce=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"66" Name=3D"Medium List 2 Acce=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"67" Name=3D"Medium Grid 1 Acce=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"68" Name=3D"Medium Grid 2 Acce=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"69" Name=3D"Medium Grid 3 Acce=
nt 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"70" Name=3D"Dark List Accent 2=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"71" Name=3D"Colorful Shading A=
ccent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"72" Name=3D"Colorful List Acce=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"73" Name=3D"Colorful Grid Acce=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"60" Name=3D"Light Shading Acce=
nt 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"61" Name=3D"Light List Accent =
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"62" Name=3D"Light Grid Accent =
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"63" Name=3D"Medium Shading 1 A=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"64" Name=3D"Medium Shading 2 A=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"65" Name=3D"Medium List 1 Acce=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"66" Name=3D"Medium List 2 Acce=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"67" Name=3D"Medium Grid 1 Acce=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"68" Name=3D"Medium Grid 2 Acce=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"69" Name=3D"Medium Grid 3 Acce=
nt 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"70" Name=3D"Dark List Accent 3=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"71" Name=3D"Colorful Shading A=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"72" Name=3D"Colorful List Acce=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"73" Name=3D"Colorful Grid Acce=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"60" Name=3D"Light Shading Acce=
nt 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"61" Name=3D"Light List Accent =
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"62" Name=3D"Light Grid Accent =
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"63" Name=3D"Medium Shading 1 A=
ccent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"64" Name=3D"Medium Shading 2 A=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"65" Name=3D"Medium List 1 Acce=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"66" Name=3D"Medium List 2 Acce=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"67" Name=3D"Medium Grid 1 Acce=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"68" Name=3D"Medium Grid 2 Acce=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"69" Name=3D"Medium Grid 3 Acce=
nt 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"70" Name=3D"Dark List Accent 4=
"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"71" Name=3D"Colorful Shading A=
ccent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"72" Name=3D"Colorful List Acce=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"73" Name=3D"Colorful Grid Acce=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"60" Name=3D"Light Shading Acce=
nt 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"61" Name=3D"Light List Accent =
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"62" Name=3D"Light Grid Accent =
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"63" Name=3D"Medium Shading 1 A=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"64" Name=3D"Medium Shading 2 A=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"65" Name=3D"Medium List 1 Acce=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"66" Name=3D"Medium List 2 Acce=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"67" Name=3D"Medium Grid 1 Acce=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"68" Name=3D"Medium Grid 2 Acce=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"69" Name=3D"Medium Grid 3 Acce=
nt 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"70" Name=3D"Dark List Accent 5=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"71" Name=3D"Colorful Shading A=
ccent 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"72" Name=3D"Colorful List Acce=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"73" Name=3D"Colorful Grid Acce=
nt 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"60" Name=3D"Light Shading Acce=
nt 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"61" Name=3D"Light List Accent =
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"62" Name=3D"Light Grid Accent =
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"63" Name=3D"Medium Shading 1 A=
ccent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"64" Name=3D"Medium Shading 2 A=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"65" Name=3D"Medium List 1 Acce=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"66" Name=3D"Medium List 2 Acce=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"67" Name=3D"Medium Grid 1 Acce=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"68" Name=3D"Medium Grid 2 Acce=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"69" Name=3D"Medium Grid 3 Acce=
nt 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"70" Name=3D"Dark List Accent 6=
"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"71" Name=3D"Colorful Shading A=
ccent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"72" Name=3D"Colorful List Acce=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"73" Name=3D"Colorful Grid Acce=
nt 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"19" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"S=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"21" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"I=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"31" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"S=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"32" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"I=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"33" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"B=
ook Title"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"37" SemiHidden=3D"true" Unhide=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"39" SemiHidden=3D"true" Unhide=
WhenUsed=3D"true" QFormat=3D"true" Name=3D"TOC Heading"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"41" Name=3D"Plain Table 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"42" Name=3D"Plain Table 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"43" Name=3D"Plain Table 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"44" Name=3D"Plain Table 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"45" Name=3D"Plain Table 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"40" Name=3D"Grid Table Light"/=
>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"46" Name=3D"Grid Table 1 Light=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"47" Name=3D"Grid Table 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"48" Name=3D"Grid Table 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"49" Name=3D"Grid Table 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"50" Name=3D"Grid Table 5 Dark"=
/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"51" Name=3D"Grid Table 6 Color=
ful"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"52" Name=3D"Grid Table 7 Color=
ful"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"46" Name=3D"Grid Table 1 Light=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"47" Name=3D"Grid Table 2 Accen=
t 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"48" Name=3D"Grid Table 3 Accen=
t 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"49" Name=3D"Grid Table 4 Accen=
t 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"50" Name=3D"Grid Table 5 Dark =
Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"51" Name=3D"Grid Table 6 Color=
ful Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"52" Name=3D"Grid Table 7 Color=
ful Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"46" Name=3D"Grid Table 1 Light=
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<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"47" Name=3D"Grid Table 2 Accen=
t 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"48" Name=3D"Grid Table 3 Accen=
t 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"49" Name=3D"Grid Table 4 Accen=
t 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"50" Name=3D"Grid Table 5 Dark =
Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked=3D"false" Priority=3D"51" Name=3D"Grid Table 6 Color=
ful Accent 2"/>
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</head>
<body lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" style=3D"word-wrap:=
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;color:black">Hi,<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-s=
ize: 14px;">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;=
color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-s=
ize: 14px;">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;=
color:black">On a high-level, for a =93temporary solution=94, I think this =
would take quite a bit of effort to deploy. Shouldn=92t the focus
 be on getting the &quot;certificate systems&quot; up and running?&nbsp;<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-s=
ize: 14px;">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;=
color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-s=
ize: 14px;">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;=
color:black">Also, how does this relate to activities like SHAKEN?<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-s=
ize: 14px;">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;=
color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;=
color:black"><o:p><br>
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;=
color:black"><o:p>Anyway, assuming this would be needed, I have some commen=
ts on the protocol parts.</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;=
color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-s=
ize: 14px;">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;=
color:black">First, even though I do consider myself more pragmatic than pu=
rist, I think usage of INVITE, and the usage of error response
 codes to return the verification result, is a really ugly hack.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-s=
ize: 14px;">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;=
color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-s=
ize: 14px;">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;=
color:black">Second, there are also some operational issues with using INVI=
TE:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calib=
ri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-ma=
rgin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1;tab-stops:list 36.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">Good old forking: The =
callback/verifying INVITE might get forked, and the terminating agent may r=
eceive a non-471/472 response.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=3D"Mso=
Normal" style=3D"color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:=
auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1;tab-stops:list 36.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">SDP: The draft require=
s SDP in the INVITE, but at the same time says that it=92s not used for any=
thing. If so, why is it mandated? Because offerless INVITEs
 might get rejected? SDP in INVITE might trigger media resources etc to be =
reserved.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"colo=
r:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 leve=
l1 lfo1;tab-stops:list 36.0pt">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">Section 7.3 talks abou=
t attacks by the agent receiving the callback/verifying INVITE, but it does=
 not cover the case where the agent would send a 200 OK
 response =96 which would establish a session and could trigger charging. A=
lternatively, the attacker could remove the option-tag and forward the requ=
est somewhere. All this without the originally called party knowing anythin=
g. The terminating agent can of course
 terminate such =93call&quot; as soon as it gets the 200 OK, but it may alr=
eady have triggered some charging etc.</span></li></ol>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;color:black"><br>
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Calibri,sans-serif" size=3D"3">Third, =
did the authors consider other mechanisms? For example</font><span style=3D=
"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 10.5pt;"=
>, is there a reason e.g., SUB/NOT couldn=92t
 be used for this? It would have none of the INVITE issues above (yes, a SU=
B can also get forked, but the client will receive NOT from each remote pee=
r).</span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-s=
ize: 14px;">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;=
color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-s=
ize: 14px;">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Calibri,sans-serif" size=3D"3">Finally=
, it seems like the callback request (whatever SIP method is used) contains=
 the called party in the From header field. Is there a technical reason why=
 that is needed, or is it just for convenience?&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></font></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-s=
ize: 14px;">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;=
color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-s=
ize: 14px;">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;=
color:black">Thanks!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-s=
ize: 14px;">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;=
color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-s=
ize: 14px;">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;=
color:black">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-s=
ize: 14px;">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;=
color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-s=
ize: 14px;">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;=
color:black">Christer<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: "Gorman, Pierce A [CTO]" <Pierce.Gorman@sprint.com>, Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>, IETF STIR Mail List <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [stir] DRAFT STIR Agenda for London
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Subject: Re: [stir] DRAFT STIR Agenda for London
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Hi,

For the Feature-Caps header field, we have the following text in RFC 6809:

   "When a SIP entity adds a Feature-Caps header field to a SIP message,
    it MUST place the header field before any existing Feature-Caps
    header field in the message to be forwarded, so that the added header
    field becomes the top-most one.=B2

If we were to take the same approach for Identity, the text could look
something like:

   "When a SIP entity adds an Identity header field to a SIP request,
    it MUST place the header field before any existing Identity
    header field in the message to be forwarded, so that the added header
    field becomes the top-most one.=B2

Alternatively, we could say that a header field is places AFTER any
existing header field. As long as we say something :)

And, if we decide that the order of header fields has no relevance, we
should say that. However, I would at least not suggest such approach.

Regards,

Christer





On 12/03/18 15:43, "Gorman, Pierce A [CTO]" <Pierce.Gorman@sprint.com>
wrote:

>I agree that the question of order (or not) of Identity headers needs to
>be resolved.
>
>I started to write assumptions and questions on this topic but decided it
>wouldn't add much to a discussion amongst development professionals who
>have encountered the issue before (which is my assumption about the
>authors and Christer).  I can re-create it if anyone wants it.
>
>Pierce
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Christer Holmberg [mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com]
>Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2018 11:33 AM
>To: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>; IETF STIR Mail List
><stir@ietf.org>
>Subject: Re: [stir] DRAFT STIR Agenda for London
>
>Hi,
>
>I think there are some generic things that we need to sort out.
>
>For example, do we specify in which order Identity header fields are
>added to a SIP message. Or, do we assume they can be put in any order,
>possible re-ordered by intermediaries, and the entities consuming them
>will figure out how they are related?
>
>I think that is an essential issue to solve, considering that there are a
>number of PASSporT extensions in the pipeline. And, we should make a
>decision that apply to all of them.
>
>Regards,
>
>Christer
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: stir [mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Russ Housley
>Sent: 09 March 2018 23:25
>To: IETF STIR Mail List <stir@ietf.org>
>Subject: [stir] DRAFT STIR Agenda for London
>
>We only have 1 hour.  We received more speaking slots than we expected.
>I have ordered the speaking slots to put priority on the active WG
>documents.  Time will be VERY tight.
>
>For the active WG documents, please focus on the changes since Singapore
>and open issues.
>
>For the other documents, please introduce the high-level concept, and
>then as the WG for advice on the way forward.
>
>Russ
>
>=3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D =3D
>
>STIR WG Agenda for IETF 101
>Thursday, 22 March 2018 at 11:00 AM
>Co-chairs: Robert Sparks and Russ Housley
>
>0)  Minute Taker, Jabber Scribe, Bluesheets
>
>1)  Agenda Bash
>
>2)  Documents that have been sent to the IESG
>    a) 5 min : draft-ietf-stir-rph-03 (Ray, Martin, Subir, and An)
>
>3)  Active Working Group Documents
>    a) 10 min : draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-01 (Chris and Mary)
>    b) 10 min : draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-02 (Jon)
>    c) 10 min : draft-ietf-stir-oob-02 (EKR and Jon)
>
>4)  Other Business (if time allows)
>    a) 5 min : draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00 (Eric)
>    b) 5 min : draft-peterson-stir-rfc4916-update-00 (Jon and Chris)
>    c) 5 min : draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00 (Jonathan and Cullen)
>    d) 5 min : draft-rosenberg-stir-sipcoin-00 (Jonathan and Cullen)
>
>5)  Wrap Up
>
>_______________________________________________
>stir mailing list
>stir@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir
>
>
>
>________________________________
>
>This e-mail may contain Sprint proprietary information intended for the
>sole use of the recipient(s). Any use by others is prohibited. If you are
>not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete all
>copies of the message.


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Subject: Re: [stir] PASSporT extensions: order of claims
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Perhaps its a bit over prescriptive, i think the intention was only to =
say that it should be documented what claims and provide order and =
examples.  It wasn=E2=80=99t to imply that it would be different or =
there would be implications of order or anything.

To step up a level, in general, JSON object key order never matters, =
it=E2=80=99s a key value object that you index on key, so order in most =
cases is arbitrary.  For PASSporT, we have a short form that is =
supported in RFC8224, where you don=E2=80=99t need to send the =
header/claims because those objects are already in the SIP INVITE.  So =
we needed a way to have the header/claims to be reconstructed in a =
predictable and reproducible way.  An therefore the dependency on order.

So again, yes we say you should say order in RFC8225, which i would say =
would inherently be the case with an example at a minimum.  A MUST might =
have been a bit strong, but i don=E2=80=99t see this as a huge concern.  =
I=E2=80=99d be curious to hear from others whether they think this is a =
real concern or not.


> On Mar 13, 2018, at 3:58 PM, Christer Holmberg =
<christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi,
> =20
> >Try RFC 8225, Section 9, perhaps?=20
> =20
> Ok, so if that=E2=80=99s a generic rule, why the statement saying that =
PASSporT extensions must specify the order?
> =20
> Regards,
> =20
> Christer
> =20
> From: Christer Holmberg [mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com =
<mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>]=20
> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 2:47 PM
> To: Chris Wendt <chris-ietf@chriswendt.net =
<mailto:chris-ietf@chriswendt.net>>
> Cc: stir@ietf.org <mailto:stir@ietf.org>; adam@nostrum.com =
<mailto:adam@nostrum.com>
> Subject: Re: [stir] PASSporT extensions: order of claims
> =20
> Hi,
> =20
> >I would agree with the text, the only caveat i would point out is =
that the extension definition has
> >no choice to the order other than alphabetic order, so the order is =
essentially implied.  So, it=E2=80=99s sort
> >of a technicality that maybe we didn=E2=80=99t anticipate, but i =
think technically you are correct.
> =20
> Not sure I understand the has-no-choice part. Where is it said that =
the claims must be ordered in alphabetic order? We could for sure =
specify it that way, but based on your e-mail it seems like it is =
already specified somewhere?
> =20
> Regards,
> =20
> Christer
> =20
> =20
>=20
> On Mar 10, 2018, at 8:27 AM, Christer Holmberg =
<christer.holmberg@ericsson.com <mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>> =
wrote:
> =20
> Section 8.3 of RFC 8225, that is.
> =20
> From: stir [mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Christer Holmberg
> Sent: 10 March 2018 15:26
> To: stir@ietf.org <mailto:stir@ietf.org>
> Cc: adam@nostrum.com <mailto:adam@nostrum.com>
> Subject: [stir] PASSporT extensions: order of claims
> =20
> Hi,
> =20
> Section  says:
> =20
>    =E2=80=9CSpecifications that define extensions to the PASSporT =
mechanism MUST
>    explicitly specify what claims they include beyond the base set of
>    claims from this document, the order in which they will =
appear,=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D
> =20
> When looking at the extensions we are currently working on:
> =20
> draft-ietf-stir-rph-03
> draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-01
> draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-02
> =20
> =E2=80=A6I don=E2=80=99t see anything about the order in any of the =
documents.
> =20
> I think it would be good to have a dedicated =E2=80=9COrder of =
claims=E2=80=9D section, or something similar, in each extension =
specification.
> =20
> When looking at the examples in the drafts above, it seems like even =
the base claims are in different orders. Not sure whether there is an =
explicit requirement that they need to be in order, thought.
> =20
> Regards,
> =20
> Christer
> =20
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> stir mailing list
> stir@ietf.org <mailto:stir@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir =
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Perhaps its a bit over prescriptive, i think the intention =
was only to say that it should be documented what claims and provide =
order and examples. &nbsp;It wasn=E2=80=99t to imply that it would be =
different or there would be implications of order or anything.<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">To step up a level, in =
general, JSON object key order never matters, it=E2=80=99s a key value =
object that you index on key, so order in most cases is arbitrary. =
&nbsp;For PASSporT, we have a short form that is supported in RFC8224, =
where you don=E2=80=99t need to send the header/claims because those =
objects are already in the SIP INVITE. &nbsp;So we needed a way to have =
the header/claims to be reconstructed in a predictable and reproducible =
way. &nbsp;An therefore the dependency on order.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">So again, yes we say you should say =
order in RFC8225, which i would say would inherently be the case with an =
example at a minimum. &nbsp;A MUST might have been a bit strong, but i =
don=E2=80=99t see this as a huge concern. &nbsp;I=E2=80=99d be curious =
to hear from others whether they think this is a real concern or =
not.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Mar =
13, 2018, at 3:58 PM, Christer Holmberg &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com" =
class=3D"">christer.holmberg@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Hi,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&gt;Try RFC 8225, Section 9, =
perhaps?&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Ok, so if that=E2=80=99s a generic rule, why the statement =
saying that PASSporT extensions must specify the order?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Regards,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Christer<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Christer =
Holmberg [<a href=3D"mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, March 13, 2018 =
2:47 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Chris Wendt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris-ietf@chriswendt.net" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">chris-ietf@chriswendt.net</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">stir@ietf.org</a>;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:adam@nostrum.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">adam@nostrum.com</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [stir] PASSporT =
extensions: order of claims<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Hi,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D"">&gt;I would agree with the text, the only caveat i =
would point out is that the extension definition has<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&gt;</span>no choice to the order other than =
alphabetic order, so the order is essentially implied. &nbsp;So, it=E2=80=99=
s sort<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&gt;</span>of a technicality that maybe we =
didn=E2=80=99t anticipate, but i think technically you are correct.<span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Not sure I understand the has-no-choice part. =
Where is it said that the claims must be ordered in alphabetic order? We =
could for sure specify it that way, but based on your e-mail it seems =
like it is already specified somewhere?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Regards,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Christer<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">On Mar 10, 2018, at 8:27 AM, Christer =
Holmberg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">christer.holmberg@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Section 8.3 of RFC 8225, that =
is.</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">stir [<a =
href=3D"mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org</a>]<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Christer =
Holmberg<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>10 March 2018 15:26<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">stir@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:adam@nostrum.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">adam@nostrum.com</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[stir] PASSporT extensions: =
order of claims</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hi,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Section&nbsp; says:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
=E2=80=9CSpecifications that define extensions to the PASSporT mechanism =
MUST<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
explicitly specify what claims they include beyond the base set of<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; claims from =
this document,<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b =
class=3D"">the order in which they will appear</b>,=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">When looking at the =
extensions we are currently working on:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">draft-ietf-stir-rph-03<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-01<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-02<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">=E2=80=A6I don=E2=80=99t =
see anything about the order in any of the documents.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I think it would be good =
to have a dedicated =E2=80=9COrder of claims=E2=80=9D section, or =
something similar, in each extension specification.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">When looking at the =
examples in the drafts above, it seems like even the base claims are in =
different orders. Not sure whether there is an explicit requirement that =
they need to be in order, thought.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Regards,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Christer<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">stir mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">stir@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_stir&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DMOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&amp;=
r=3Dww1S9BHEcpE4MMUbgGQrsoL-SK3UCGY33Koaj2h9zYw&amp;m=3D_DBdmUKpkUAUVv120P=
uHoMt-TVtTuzOHsfFQdAWmeFs&amp;s=3DyYY6kvNSlx7W84nXLfYP7n4PSH0S7Uiq3VK2FI6i=
wEU&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
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v></blockquote></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: Chris Wendt <chris-ietf@chriswendt.net>
CC: "Politz, Ken" <Kenneth.Politz@team.neustar>, "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>, "adam@nostrum.com" <adam@nostrum.com>
Thread-Topic: [stir] PASSporT extensions: order of claims
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Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 12:00:33 +0000
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Subject: Re: [stir] PASSporT extensions: order of claims
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--_000_D6CED8EF2CC5Bchristerholmbergericssoncom_
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Hi,

> Perhaps its a bit over prescriptive, i think the intention was only to sa=
y that it should be documented what claims and provide order and examples.
>
> It wasn=92t to imply that it would be different or there would be implica=
tions of order or anything.
>
> To step up a level, in general, JSON object key order never matters, it=
=92s a key value object that you index on key, so order in most cases is ar=
bitrary.  For PASSporT, we
> have a short form that is supported in RFC8224, where you don=92t need to=
 send the header/claims because those objects are already in the SIP INVITE=
.  So we needed a
> way to have the header/claims to be reconstructed in a predictable and re=
producible way.  An therefore the dependency on order.

Correct. I wasn=92t questioning the need for ordering, but maybe I wasn=92t=
 clear about that :)

> So again, yes we say you should say order in RFC8225, which i would say w=
ould inherently be the case with an example at a minimum.  A MUST might hav=
e been
> a bit strong, but i don=92t see this as a huge concern.  I=92d be curious=
 to hear from others whether they think this is a real concern or not.

It depends on what is meant by =93concern=94. When people define PASSporT e=
xtensions future, they will not look at this e-mail thread =96 they will re=
ad RFC8225. We shouldn=92t have MUSTs if they don=92t mean anything.

Anyway, as far as the current PASSporT extensions are concerned, maybe we c=
ould solve the issue by including a statement saying something like:

=93The order of the claims within the PASSporT <insert-name-of-PASSporT ext=
ension> JSON object does not matter. However, as defined in Section 9 of RF=
C8225, when the JSON serialisation takes place, the claims must be placed i=
n lexicographic order=94

Regards,

Christer






On Mar 13, 2018, at 3:58 PM, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.=
com<mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>> wrote:

Hi,

>Try RFC 8225, Section 9, perhaps?

Ok, so if that=92s a generic rule, why the statement saying that PASSporT e=
xtensions must specify the order?

Regards,

Christer

From: Christer Holmberg [mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 2:47 PM
To: Chris Wendt <chris-ietf@chriswendt.net<mailto:chris-ietf@chriswendt.net=
>>
Cc: stir@ietf.org<mailto:stir@ietf.org>; adam@nostrum.com<mailto:adam@nostr=
um.com>
Subject: Re: [stir] PASSporT extensions: order of claims

Hi,

>I would agree with the text, the only caveat i would point out is that the=
 extension definition has
>no choice to the order other than alphabetic order, so the order is essent=
ially implied.  So, it=92s sort
>of a technicality that maybe we didn=92t anticipate, but i think technical=
ly you are correct.

Not sure I understand the has-no-choice part. Where is it said that the cla=
ims must be ordered in alphabetic order? We could for sure specify it that =
way, but based on your e-mail it seems like it is already specified somewhe=
re?

Regards,

Christer


On Mar 10, 2018, at 8:27 AM, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.=
com<mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>> wrote:

Section 8.3 of RFC 8225, that is.

From: stir [mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christer Holmberg
Sent: 10 March 2018 15:26
To: stir@ietf.org<mailto:stir@ietf.org>
Cc: adam@nostrum.com<mailto:adam@nostrum.com>
Subject: [stir] PASSporT extensions: order of claims

Hi,

Section  says:

   =93Specifications that define extensions to the PASSporT mechanism MUST
   explicitly specify what claims they include beyond the base set of
   claims from this document, the order in which they will appear,=85=94

When looking at the extensions we are currently working on:

draft-ietf-stir-rph-03
draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-01
draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-02

=85I don=92t see anything about the order in any of the documents.

I think it would be good to have a dedicated =93Order of claims=94 section,=
 or something similar, in each extension specification.

When looking at the examples in the drafts above, it seems like even the ba=
se claims are in different orders. Not sure whether there is an explicit re=
quirement that they need to be in order, thought.

Regards,

Christer


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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252">
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space;">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-s=
ize: 14px;">
Hi,</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-s=
ize: 14px;">
<br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family=
: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">
<div>
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D"">
&gt; Perhaps its a bit over prescriptive, i think the intention was only to=
 say that it should be documented what claims and provide order and example=
s. &nbsp;</div>
</div>
</span>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-s=
ize: 14px;">
&gt;</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family=
: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">
<div>
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D"">
&gt; It wasn=92t to imply that it would be different or there would be impl=
ications of order or anything.
<div class=3D"">&gt;</div>
<div class=3D"">&gt; To step up a level, in general, JSON object key order =
never matters, it=92s a key value object that you index on key, so order in=
 most cases is arbitrary. &nbsp;For PASSporT, we
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-s=
ize: 14px;">
&gt; have a short form that is supported in RFC8224, where you don=92t need=
 to send the header/claims because those objects are already in the SIP INV=
ITE. &nbsp;So we needed a&nbsp;</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-s=
ize: 14px;">
&gt; way to have the header/claims to be reconstructed in a predictable and=
 reproducible way. &nbsp;An therefore the dependency on order.</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-s=
ize: 14px;">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-s=
ize: 14px;">
Correct. I wasn=92t questioning the need for ordering, but maybe I wasn=92t=
 clear about that :)</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-s=
ize: 14px;">
<br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family=
: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">&gt; So again, yes we say you should say order in RFC8225, =
which i would say would inherently be the case with an example at a minimum=
. &nbsp;A MUST might have been
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-s=
ize: 14px;">
&gt; a bit strong, but i don=92t see this as a huge concern. &nbsp;I=92d be=
 curious to hear from others whether they think this is a real concern or n=
ot.</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-s=
ize: 14px;">
<br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family=
: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">It depends on what is meant by =93concern=94. When people d=
efine PASSporT extensions future, they will not look at this e-mail thread =
=96 they will read RFC8225. We shouldn=92t have MUSTs if they don=92t mean =
anything.</div>
</div>
</span>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-s=
ize: 14px;">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-s=
ize: 14px;">
Anyway, as far as the current PASSporT extensions are concerned, maybe we c=
ould solve the issue by including a statement saying something like:</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-s=
ize: 14px;">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"orphans: 2; widows: 2;"><font face=3D"Calibri,sans-serif">=93=
The order of the claims within the PASSporT &lt;insert-name-of-PASSporT ext=
ension&gt; JSON object does not matter. However, as defined in Section 9 of=
 RFC8225, when the JSON serialisation takes
 place, the claims must be placed in </font><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0,=
 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; orphans: 2; widows: 2;">lexicographi=
c order</span><font face=3D"Calibri,sans-serif">=94</font></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span=
 style=3D"orphans: 2; widows: 2;"><br>
</span></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span=
 style=3D"orphans: 2; widows: 2;">Regards,</span></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span=
 style=3D"orphans: 2; widows: 2;"><br>
</span></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span=
 style=3D"orphans: 2; widows: 2;">Christer</span></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span=
 style=3D"orphans: 2; widows: 2;"><br>
</span></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span=
 style=3D"orphans: 2; widows: 2;"><br>
</span></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span=
 style=3D"orphans: 2; widows: 2;"><br>
</span></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span=
 style=3D"orphans: 2; widows: 2;"><br>
</span></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span=
 style=3D"orphans: 2; widows: 2;"><br>
</span></div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family=
: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div><br class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On Mar 13, 2018, at 3:58 PM, Christer Holmberg &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com" class=3D"">christer.holmberg@eri=
csson.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: Helve=
tica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-=
weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px=
; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-tex=
t-stroke-width: 0px;">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Hi,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-s=
erif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&gt;Try RFC 8225, Section 9, per=
haps?&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-s=
erif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></sp=
an></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-s=
erif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Ok, so if that=92s a generic rul=
e, why the statement saying that PASSporT extensions must specify the order=
?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-s=
erif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></sp=
an></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-s=
erif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Regards,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></=
span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-s=
erif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></sp=
an></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-s=
erif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Christer<o:p class=3D""></o:p></=
span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-s=
erif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></sp=
an></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-=
top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<b class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: C=
alibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span cl=
ass=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Christer Holmberg
 [<a href=3D"mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com" style=3D"color: purple;=
 text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.=
com</a>]<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>T=
uesday, March 13, 2018 2:47 PM<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Chr=
is Wendt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris-ietf@chriswendt.net" style=3D"color: p=
urple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">chris-ietf@chriswendt.net</a=
>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: unde=
rline;" class=3D"">stir@ietf.org</a>;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"mailto:adam@nostrum.com" style=3D"color: purple; te=
xt-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">adam@nostrum.com</a><br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</spa=
n>Re: [stir] PASSporT extensions: order of claims<o:p class=3D""></o:p></sp=
an></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Hi,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
&gt;I would agree with the text, the only caveat i would point out is that =
the extension definition has<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&gt;</span>no choice to the order other than alphabetic order, so the or=
der is essentially implied. &nbsp;So, it=92s sort<o:p class=3D""></o:p></di=
v>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&gt;</span>of a technicality that maybe we didn=92t anticipate, but i th=
ink technically you are correct.<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family=
: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">Not sure I understand the has-no-choice part. Where is it said that the =
claims must be ordered in alphabetic order? We could for sure specify it th=
at way, but based on your e-mail it
 seems like it is already specified somewhere?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span>=
</div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">Regards,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">Christer<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font=
-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;">
<o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
On Mar 10, 2018, at 8:27 AM, Christer Holmberg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christ=
er.holmberg@ericsson.com" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underlin=
e;" class=3D"">christer.holmberg@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p class=3D""=
></o:p></div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Section 8.3 of RFC 8225, that is.</span><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p=
 class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; fo=
nt-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></=
div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-=
top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<b class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: C=
alibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span class=3D"apple-conver=
ted-space"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Cali=
bri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">stir
 [<a href=3D"mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-dec=
oration: underline;" class=3D"">mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org</a>]<span clas=
s=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf Of<span cl=
ass=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Christer
 Holmberg<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>1=
0 March 2018 15:26<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: unde=
rline;" class=3D"">stir@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:adam@nostrum.com" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: u=
nderline;" class=3D"">adam@nostrum.com</a><br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</spa=
n>[stir] PASSporT extensions: order of claims</span><span style=3D"font-siz=
e: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:=
p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">Hi,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">Section&nbsp; says:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =93Specifications that define extensions to the PASSporT me=
chanism MUST<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;&nbsp; explicitly specify what claims they include beyond the base=
 set of<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;&nbsp; claims from this document,<span class=3D"apple-converted-sp=
ace">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">the order in which they will appear</b>,=85=
=94<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">When looking at the extensions we are currently working on:<o:p class=3D=
""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">draft-ietf-stir-rph-03<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-01<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-02<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">=85I don=92t see anything about the order in any of the documents.<o:p c=
lass=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">I think it would be good to have a dedicated =93Order of claims=94 secti=
on, or something similar, in each extension specification.<o:p class=3D""><=
/o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">When looking at the examples in the drafts above, it seems like even the=
 base claims are in different orders. Not sure whether there is an explicit=
 requirement that they need to be in
 order, thought.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">Regards,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">Christer<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=
=3D"">_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">
stir mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: u=
nderline;" class=3D"">stir@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_stir&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DMOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&amp=
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</blockquote>
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</div>
</div>
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</blockquote>
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<br class=3D"">
</div>
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</body>
</html>

--_000_D6CED8EF2CC5Bchristerholmbergericssoncom_--


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From: Chris Wendt <chris-ietf@chriswendt.net>
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Subject: Re: [stir] PASSporT extensions: order of claims
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To be clear, and i think this was the point of my last e-mail, I=E2=80=99m=
 not suggesting it doesn=E2=80=99t mean anything.  It certainly is good =
to be explicit about the order and provide examples and if that=E2=80=99s =
all you are suggesting, i can=E2=80=99t disagree.

I think at some point in the e-mail thread you were questioning the =
logic of the MUST for providing details of the order of claims in =
RFC8225 and that=E2=80=99s what i was trying to address.  I think we are =
going in circles at this point, so i=E2=80=99ll let others comment.

> On Mar 14, 2018, at 8:00 AM, Christer Holmberg =
<christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> > Perhaps its a bit over prescriptive, i think the intention was only =
to say that it should be documented what claims and provide order and =
examples. =20
> >
> > It wasn=E2=80=99t to imply that it would be different or there would =
be implications of order or anything.
> >
> > To step up a level, in general, JSON object key order never matters, =
it=E2=80=99s a key value object that you index on key, so order in most =
cases is arbitrary.  For PASSporT, we
> > have a short form that is supported in RFC8224, where you don=E2=80=99=
t need to send the header/claims because those objects are already in =
the SIP INVITE.  So we needed a=20
> > way to have the header/claims to be reconstructed in a predictable =
and reproducible way.  An therefore the dependency on order.
>=20
> Correct. I wasn=E2=80=99t questioning the need for ordering, but maybe =
I wasn=E2=80=99t clear about that :)
>=20
> > So again, yes we say you should say order in RFC8225, which i would =
say would inherently be the case with an example at a minimum.  A MUST =
might have been
> > a bit strong, but i don=E2=80=99t see this as a huge concern.  I=E2=80=
=99d be curious to hear from others whether they think this is a real =
concern or not.
>=20
> It depends on what is meant by =E2=80=9Cconcern=E2=80=9D. When people =
define PASSporT extensions future, they will not look at this e-mail =
thread =E2=80=93 they will read RFC8225. We shouldn=E2=80=99t have MUSTs =
if they don=E2=80=99t mean anything.
>=20
> Anyway, as far as the current PASSporT extensions are concerned, maybe =
we could solve the issue by including a statement saying something like:
>=20
> =E2=80=9CThe order of the claims within the PASSporT =
<insert-name-of-PASSporT extension> JSON object does not matter. =
However, as defined in Section 9 of RFC8225, when the JSON serialisation =
takes place, the claims must be placed in lexicographic order=E2=80=9D
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Christer
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On Mar 13, 2018, at 3:58 PM, Christer Holmberg =
<christer.holmberg@ericsson.com <mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>> =
wrote:
>>=20
>> Hi,
>> =20
>> >Try RFC 8225, Section 9, perhaps?=20
>> =20
>> Ok, so if that=E2=80=99s a generic rule, why the statement saying =
that PASSporT extensions must specify the order?
>> =20
>> Regards,
>> =20
>> Christer
>> =20
>> From: Christer Holmberg [mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com =
<mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>]=20
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 2:47 PM
>> To: Chris Wendt <chris-ietf@chriswendt.net =
<mailto:chris-ietf@chriswendt.net>>
>> Cc: stir@ietf.org <mailto:stir@ietf.org>; adam@nostrum.com =
<mailto:adam@nostrum.com>
>> Subject: Re: [stir] PASSporT extensions: order of claims
>> =20
>> Hi,
>> =20
>> >I would agree with the text, the only caveat i would point out is =
that the extension definition has
>> >no choice to the order other than alphabetic order, so the order is =
essentially implied.  So, it=E2=80=99s sort
>> >of a technicality that maybe we didn=E2=80=99t anticipate, but i =
think technically you are correct.
>> =20
>> Not sure I understand the has-no-choice part. Where is it said that =
the claims must be ordered in alphabetic order? We could for sure =
specify it that way, but based on your e-mail it seems like it is =
already specified somewhere?
>> =20
>> Regards,
>> =20
>> Christer
>> =20
>> =20
>>=20
>>> On Mar 10, 2018, at 8:27 AM, Christer Holmberg =
<christer.holmberg@ericsson.com <mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>> =
wrote:
>>> =20
>>> Section 8.3 of RFC 8225, that is.
>>> =20
>>> From: stir [mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Christer Holmberg
>>> Sent: 10 March 2018 15:26
>>> To: stir@ietf.org <mailto:stir@ietf.org>
>>> Cc: adam@nostrum.com <mailto:adam@nostrum.com>
>>> Subject: [stir] PASSporT extensions: order of claims
>>> =20
>>> Hi,
>>> =20
>>> Section  says:
>>> =20
>>>    =E2=80=9CSpecifications that define extensions to the PASSporT =
mechanism MUST
>>>    explicitly specify what claims they include beyond the base set =
of
>>>    claims from this document, the order in which they will =
appear,=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D
>>> =20
>>> When looking at the extensions we are currently working on:
>>> =20
>>> draft-ietf-stir-rph-03
>>> draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-01
>>> draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-02
>>> =20
>>> =E2=80=A6I don=E2=80=99t see anything about the order in any of the =
documents.
>>> =20
>>> I think it would be good to have a dedicated =E2=80=9COrder of =
claims=E2=80=9D section, or something similar, in each extension =
specification.
>>> =20
>>> When looking at the examples in the drafts above, it seems like even =
the base claims are in different orders. Not sure whether there is an =
explicit requirement that they need to be in order, thought.
>>> =20
>>> Regards,
>>> =20
>>> Christer
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> stir mailing list
>>> stir@ietf.org <mailto:stir@ietf.org>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir =
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">To be clear, and i think this was the point of my last =
e-mail, I=E2=80=99m not suggesting it doesn=E2=80=99t mean anything. =
&nbsp;It certainly is good to be explicit about the order and provide =
examples and if that=E2=80=99s all you are suggesting, i can=E2=80=99t =
disagree.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
think at some point in the e-mail thread you were questioning the logic =
of the MUST for providing details of the order of claims in RFC8225 and =
that=E2=80=99s what i was trying to address. &nbsp;I think we are going =
in circles at this point, so i=E2=80=99ll let others comment.<br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Mar 14, 2018, at 8:00 AM, Christer Holmberg &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com" =
class=3D"">christer.holmberg@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">

<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3DWindows-1252" class=3D"">

<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" =
class=3D"">
Hi,</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
&gt; Perhaps its a bit over prescriptive, i think the intention was only =
to say that it should be documented what claims and provide order and =
examples. &nbsp;</div>
</div>
</span>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" =
class=3D"">
&gt;</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
&gt; It wasn=E2=80=99t to imply that it would be different or there =
would be implications of order or anything.
<div class=3D"">&gt;</div>
<div class=3D"">&gt; To step up a level, in general, JSON object key =
order never matters, it=E2=80=99s a key value object that you index on =
key, so order in most cases is arbitrary. &nbsp;For PASSporT, we
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" =
class=3D"">
&gt; have a short form that is supported in RFC8224, where you don=E2=80=99=
t need to send the header/claims because those objects are already in =
the SIP INVITE. &nbsp;So we needed a&nbsp;</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" =
class=3D"">
&gt; way to have the header/claims to be reconstructed in a predictable =
and reproducible way. &nbsp;An therefore the dependency on order.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" =
class=3D"">
Correct. I wasn=E2=80=99t questioning the need for ordering, but maybe I =
wasn=E2=80=99t clear about that :)</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">&gt; So again, yes we say you should say order in =
RFC8225, which i would say would inherently be the case with an example =
at a minimum. &nbsp;A MUST might have been
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" =
class=3D"">
&gt; a bit strong, but i don=E2=80=99t see this as a huge concern. =
&nbsp;I=E2=80=99d be curious to hear from others whether they think this =
is a real concern or not.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">It depends on what is meant by =E2=80=9Cconcern=E2=80=9D. =
When people define PASSporT extensions future, they will not look at =
this e-mail thread =E2=80=93 they will read RFC8225. We shouldn=E2=80=99t =
have MUSTs if they don=E2=80=99t mean anything.</div>
</div>
</span>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" =
class=3D"">
Anyway, as far as the current PASSporT extensions are concerned, maybe =
we could solve the issue by including a statement saying something =
like:</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</div>
<div style=3D"orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">=E2=80=9CThe order of the claims =
within the PASSporT &lt;insert-name-of-PASSporT extension&gt; JSON =
object does not matter. However, as defined in Section 9 of RFC8225, =
when the JSON serialisation takes
 place, the claims must be placed in </font><span style=3D"font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=3D"">lexicographic =
order</span><font face=3D"Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">=E2=80=9D</font><=
/div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</span></div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=3D"">Regards,</span></div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</span></div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=3D"">Christer</span></div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</span></div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</span></div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</span></div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</span></div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</span></div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On Mar 13, 2018, at 3:58 PM, Christer Holmberg &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com" =
class=3D"">christer.holmberg@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Hi,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&gt;Try RFC 8225, =
Section 9, perhaps?&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Ok, so if that=E2=80=99s =
a generic rule, why the statement saying that PASSporT extensions must =
specify the order?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Regards,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Christer<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<b class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Christer Holmberg
 [<a href=3D"mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, March 13, 2018 =
2:47 PM<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Chris Wendt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris-ietf@chriswendt.net" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">chris-ietf@chriswendt.net</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a=
 href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">stir@ietf.org</a>;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:adam@nostrum.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">adam@nostrum.com</a><br =
class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [stir] PASSporT =
extensions: order of claims<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Hi,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
&gt;I would agree with the text, the only caveat i would point out is =
that the extension definition has<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&gt;</span>no choice to the order other than alphabetic =
order, so the order is essentially implied. &nbsp;So, it=E2=80=99s =
sort<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&gt;</span>of a technicality that maybe we didn=E2=80=99t =
anticipate, but i think technically you are correct.<span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Not sure I understand the has-no-choice part. Where is it =
said that the claims must be ordered in alphabetic order? We could for =
sure specify it that way, but based on your e-mail it
 seems like it is already specified somewhere?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Regards,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Christer<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;">
<o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" =
type=3D"cite">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
On Mar 10, 2018, at 8:27 AM, Christer Holmberg &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">christer.holmberg@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Section 8.3 of RFC 8225, that =
is.</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<b class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">stir
 [<a href=3D"mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org</a>]<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Christer
 Holmberg<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>10 March 2018 15:26<br =
class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a=
 href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">stir@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a=
 href=3D"mailto:adam@nostrum.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">adam@nostrum.com</a><br =
class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[stir] PASSporT extensions: =
order of claims</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Hi,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Section&nbsp; says:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9CSpecifications that define extensions =
to the PASSporT mechanism MUST<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; explicitly specify what claims they include =
beyond the base set of<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; claims from this document,<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">the order in =
which they will appear</b>,=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">When looking at the extensions we are currently working =
on:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">draft-ietf-stir-rph-03<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-01<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-02<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">=E2=80=A6I don=E2=80=99t see anything about the order in any =
of the documents.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">I think it would be good to have a dedicated =E2=80=9COrder =
of claims=E2=80=9D section, or something similar, in each extension =
specification.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">When looking at the examples in the drafts above, it seems =
like even the base claims are in different orders. Not sure whether =
there is an explicit requirement that they need to be in
 order, thought.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Regards,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Christer<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">
stir mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">stir@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
<a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_stir&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DMOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&amp;=
r=3Dww1S9BHEcpE4MMUbgGQrsoL-SK3UCGY33Koaj2h9zYw&amp;m=3D_DBdmUKpkUAUVv120P=
uHoMt-TVtTuzOHsfFQdAWmeFs&amp;s=3DyYY6kvNSlx7W84nXLfYP7n4PSH0S7Uiq3VK2FI6i=
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</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</span>
</div>

</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: Chris Wendt <chris-ietf@chriswendt.net>
CC: "Politz, Ken" <Kenneth.Politz@team.neustar>, "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>, "adam@nostrum.com" <adam@nostrum.com>
Thread-Topic: [stir] PASSporT extensions: order of claims
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Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 13:38:26 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/stir/sxBxgOH3DdBz8hAaLJjHiog7kt4>
Subject: Re: [stir] PASSporT extensions: order of claims
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--_000_D6CEF1A52CC9Fchristerholmbergericssoncom_
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Hi,

>To be clear, and i think this was the point of my last e-mail, I=92m not s=
uggesting it doesn=92t mean anything.  It certainly is good to be explicit =
about the order and provide examples and if that=92s all you are suggesting=
, i can=92t disagree.
>
>I think at some point in the e-mail thread you were questioning the logic =
of the MUST for providing details of the order of claims in RFC8225 and tha=
t=92s what i was trying to address.

My initial comment was that the current PASSporT extensions do not provide =
details of the order, and that we should fix that :)

Later, I questioned the logic of the MUST when I was told that RFC8225 alre=
ady defines the order for extensions.

Regards,

Christer


On Mar 14, 2018, at 8:00 AM, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.=
com<mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>> wrote:

Hi,

> Perhaps its a bit over prescriptive, i think the intention was only to sa=
y that it should be documented what claims and provide order and examples.
>
> It wasn=92t to imply that it would be different or there would be implica=
tions of order or anything.
>
> To step up a level, in general, JSON object key order never matters, it=
=92s a key value object that you index on key, so order in most cases is ar=
bitrary.  For PASSporT, we
> have a short form that is supported in RFC8224, where you don=92t need to=
 send the header/claims because those objects are already in the SIP INVITE=
.  So we needed a
> way to have the header/claims to be reconstructed in a predictable and re=
producible way.  An therefore the dependency on order.

Correct. I wasn=92t questioning the need for ordering, but maybe I wasn=92t=
 clear about that :)

> So again, yes we say you should say order in RFC8225, which i would say w=
ould inherently be the case with an example at a minimum.  A MUST might hav=
e been
> a bit strong, but i don=92t see this as a huge concern.  I=92d be curious=
 to hear from others whether they think this is a real concern or not.

It depends on what is meant by =93concern=94. When people define PASSporT e=
xtensions future, they will not look at this e-mail thread =96 they will re=
ad RFC8225. We shouldn=92t have MUSTs if they don=92t mean anything.

Anyway, as far as the current PASSporT extensions are concerned, maybe we c=
ould solve the issue by including a statement saying something like:

=93The order of the claims within the PASSporT <insert-name-of-PASSporT ext=
ension> JSON object does not matter. However, as defined in Section 9 of RF=
C8225, when the JSON serialisation takes place, the claims must be placed i=
n lexicographic order=94

Regards,

Christer






On Mar 13, 2018, at 3:58 PM, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.=
com<mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>> wrote:

Hi,

>Try RFC 8225, Section 9, perhaps?

Ok, so if that=92s a generic rule, why the statement saying that PASSporT e=
xtensions must specify the order?

Regards,

Christer

From: Christer Holmberg [mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 2:47 PM
To: Chris Wendt <chris-ietf@chriswendt.net<mailto:chris-ietf@chriswendt.net=
>>
Cc: stir@ietf.org<mailto:stir@ietf.org>; adam@nostrum.com<mailto:adam@nostr=
um.com>
Subject: Re: [stir] PASSporT extensions: order of claims

Hi,

>I would agree with the text, the only caveat i would point out is that the=
 extension definition has
>no choice to the order other than alphabetic order, so the order is essent=
ially implied.  So, it=92s sort
>of a technicality that maybe we didn=92t anticipate, but i think technical=
ly you are correct.

Not sure I understand the has-no-choice part. Where is it said that the cla=
ims must be ordered in alphabetic order? We could for sure specify it that =
way, but based on your e-mail it seems like it is already specified somewhe=
re?

Regards,

Christer


On Mar 10, 2018, at 8:27 AM, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.=
com<mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>> wrote:

Section 8.3 of RFC 8225, that is.

From: stir [mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christer Holmberg
Sent: 10 March 2018 15:26
To: stir@ietf.org<mailto:stir@ietf.org>
Cc: adam@nostrum.com<mailto:adam@nostrum.com>
Subject: [stir] PASSporT extensions: order of claims

Hi,

Section  says:

   =93Specifications that define extensions to the PASSporT mechanism MUST
   explicitly specify what claims they include beyond the base set of
   claims from this document, the order in which they will appear,=85=94

When looking at the extensions we are currently working on:

draft-ietf-stir-rph-03
draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-01
draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-02

=85I don=92t see anything about the order in any of the documents.

I think it would be good to have a dedicated =93Order of claims=94 section,=
 or something similar, in each extension specification.

When looking at the examples in the drafts above, it seems like even the ba=
se claims are in different orders. Not sure whether there is an explicit re=
quirement that they need to be in order, thought.

Regards,

Christer


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--_000_D6CEF1A52CC9Fchristerholmbergericssoncom_
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<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252">
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif;">
<div>Hi,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div>
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">&gt;To be clear, and i think this was the point of my last =
e-mail, I=92m not suggesting it doesn=92t mean anything. &nbsp;It certainly=
 is good to be explicit about the order and provide examples and if that=92=
s all you are suggesting, i can=92t disagree.</div>
<div class=3D"">&gt;</div>
<div class=3D"">&gt;I think at some point in the e-mail thread you were que=
stioning the logic of the MUST for providing details of the order of claims=
 in RFC8225 and that=92s what i was trying to address.
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My initial comment was that the current PASSporT extensions do not pro=
vide details of the order, and that we should fix that :)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Later, I questioned the logic of the MUST when I was told that RFC8225=
 already defines the order for extensions.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Christer</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div>
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On Mar 14, 2018, at 8:00 AM, Christer Holmberg &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com" class=3D"">christer.holmberg@eri=
csson.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line=
-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class=3D"=
">Hi,</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class=3D"=
"><br class=3D"">
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; font-size: 14px;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D"">
&gt; Perhaps its a bit over prescriptive, i think the intention was only to=
 say that it should be documented what claims and provide order and example=
s. &nbsp;</div>
</div>
</span>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class=3D"=
">&gt;</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; font-size: 14px;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D"">
&gt; It wasn=92t to imply that it would be different or there would be impl=
ications of order or anything.
<div class=3D"">&gt;</div>
<div class=3D"">&gt; To step up a level, in general, JSON object key order =
never matters, it=92s a key value object that you index on key, so order in=
 most cases is arbitrary. &nbsp;For PASSporT, we
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class=3D"=
">&gt; have a short form that is supported in RFC8224, where you don=92t ne=
ed to send the header/claims because those objects are already in the SIP I=
NVITE. &nbsp;So we needed a&nbsp;</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class=3D"=
">&gt; way to have the header/claims to be reconstructed in a predictable a=
nd reproducible way. &nbsp;An therefore the dependency on order.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class=3D"=
"><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class=3D"=
">Correct. I wasn=92t questioning the need for ordering, but maybe I wasn=
=92t clear about that :)</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class=3D"=
"><br class=3D"">
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; font-size: 14px;" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">&gt; So again, yes we say you should say order in RFC8225, =
which i would say would inherently be the case with an example at a minimum=
. &nbsp;A MUST might have been
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class=3D"=
">&gt; a bit strong, but i don=92t see this as a huge concern. &nbsp;I=92d =
be curious to hear from others whether they think this is a real concern or=
 not.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class=3D"=
"><br class=3D"">
</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; font-size: 14px;" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">It depends on what is meant by =93concern=94. When people d=
efine PASSporT extensions future, they will not look at this e-mail thread =
=96 they will read RFC8225. We shouldn=92t have MUSTs if they don=92t mean =
anything.</div>
</div>
</span>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class=3D"=
"><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class=3D"=
">Anyway, as far as the current PASSporT extensions are concerned, maybe we=
 could solve the issue by including a statement saying something like:</div=
>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class=3D"=
"><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div style=3D"orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=3D""><font face=3D"Calibri,sans=
-serif" class=3D"">=93The order of the claims within the PASSporT &lt;inser=
t-name-of-PASSporT extension&gt; JSON object does not matter. However, as d=
efined in Section 9 of RFC8225, when the JSON serialisation
 takes place, the claims must be placed in </font><span style=3D"font-famil=
y: Calibri, sans-serif; orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=3D"">lexicographic or=
der</span><font face=3D"Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">=94</font></div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"=
orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</span></div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"=
orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=3D"">Regards,</span></div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"=
orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</span></div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"=
orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=3D"">Christer</span></div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"=
orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</span></div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"=
orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</span></div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"=
orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</span></div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"=
orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</span></div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"=
orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</span></div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
; font-size: 14px;" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On Mar 13, 2018, at 3:58 PM, Christer Holmberg &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com" class=3D"">christer.holmberg@eri=
csson.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: Helve=
tica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-=
weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px=
; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-tex=
t-stroke-width: 0px;">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Hi,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-s=
erif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&gt;Try RFC 8225, Section 9, per=
haps?&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-s=
erif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></sp=
an></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-s=
erif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Ok, so if that=92s a generic rul=
e, why the statement saying that PASSporT extensions must specify the order=
?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-s=
erif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></sp=
an></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-s=
erif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Regards,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></=
span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-s=
erif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></sp=
an></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-s=
erif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Christer<o:p class=3D""></o:p></=
span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-s=
erif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></sp=
an></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-=
top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<b class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: C=
alibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span cl=
ass=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Christer Holmberg
 [<a href=3D"mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com" style=3D"color: purple;=
 text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.=
com</a>]<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>T=
uesday, March 13, 2018 2:47 PM<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Chr=
is Wendt &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris-ietf@chriswendt.net" style=3D"color: p=
urple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">chris-ietf@chriswendt.net</a=
>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: unde=
rline;" class=3D"">stir@ietf.org</a>;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"mailto:adam@nostrum.com" style=3D"color: purple; te=
xt-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">adam@nostrum.com</a><br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</spa=
n>Re: [stir] PASSporT extensions: order of claims<o:p class=3D""></o:p></sp=
an></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Hi,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
&gt;I would agree with the text, the only caveat i would point out is that =
the extension definition has<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&gt;</span>no choice to the order other than alphabetic order, so the or=
der is essentially implied. &nbsp;So, it=92s sort<o:p class=3D""></o:p></di=
v>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&gt;</span>of a technicality that maybe we didn=92t anticipate, but i th=
ink technically you are correct.<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family=
: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">Not sure I understand the has-no-choice part. Where is it said that the =
claims must be ordered in alphabetic order? We could for sure specify it th=
at way, but based on your e-mail it
 seems like it is already specified somewhere?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span>=
</div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">Regards,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">Christer<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font=
-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;">
<o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" type=
=3D"cite">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
On Mar 10, 2018, at 8:27 AM, Christer Holmberg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christ=
er.holmberg@ericsson.com" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underlin=
e;" class=3D"">christer.holmberg@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p class=3D""=
></o:p></div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Section 8.3 of RFC 8225, that is.</span><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p=
 class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rg=
b(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; fo=
nt-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></=
div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-=
top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<b class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: C=
alibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span class=3D"apple-conver=
ted-space"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Cali=
bri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">stir
 [<a href=3D"mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-dec=
oration: underline;" class=3D"">mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org</a>]<span clas=
s=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf Of<span cl=
ass=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Christer
 Holmberg<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>1=
0 March 2018 15:26<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: unde=
rline;" class=3D"">stir@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:adam@nostrum.com" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: u=
nderline;" class=3D"">adam@nostrum.com</a><br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</spa=
n>[stir] PASSporT extensions: order of claims</span><span style=3D"font-siz=
e: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:=
p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">Hi,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">Section&nbsp; says:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =93Specifications that define extensions to the PASSporT me=
chanism MUST<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;&nbsp; explicitly specify what claims they include beyond the base=
 set of<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;&nbsp; claims from this document,<span class=3D"apple-converted-sp=
ace">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">the order in which they will appear</b>,=85=
=94<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">When looking at the extensions we are currently working on:<o:p class=3D=
""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">draft-ietf-stir-rph-03<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-01<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-02<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">=85I don=92t see anything about the order in any of the documents.<o:p c=
lass=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">I think it would be good to have a dedicated =93Order of claims=94 secti=
on, or something similar, in each extension specification.<o:p class=3D""><=
/o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">When looking at the examples in the drafts above, it seems like even the=
 base claims are in different orders. Not sure whether there is an explicit=
 requirement that they need to be in
 order, thought.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">Regards,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">Christer<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D=
"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=
=3D"">_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">
stir mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: u=
nderline;" class=3D"">stir@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.=
org_mailman_listinfo_stir&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3DMOptNlVtIETeDALC_lULrw&amp=
;r=3Dww1S9BHEcpE4MMUbgGQrsoL-SK3UCGY33Koaj2h9zYw&amp;m=3D_DBdmUKpkUAUVv120P=
uHoMt-TVtTuzOHsfFQdAWmeFs&amp;s=3DyYY6kvNSlx7W84nXLfYP7n4PSH0S7Uiq3VK2FI6iw=
EU&amp;e=3D" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"=
">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir</a></span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
</body>
</html>

--_000_D6CEF1A52CC9Fchristerholmbergericssoncom_--


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From: "Politz, Ken" <Kenneth.Politz@team.neustar>
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CC: "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>, "adam@nostrum.com" <adam@nostrum.com>
Thread-Topic: [EXTERNAL] Re: [stir] PASSporT extensions: order of claims
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--_000_46946849EEFF3043A8FBCC3D102A2C1A3FCAF4E9stntexmb13cisne_--


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From: "Gorman, Pierce A [CTO]" <Pierce.Gorman@sprint.com>
To: "Politz, Ken" <Kenneth.Politz@team.neustar>, Chris Wendt <chris-ietf@chriswendt.net>, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
CC: "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>, "adam@nostrum.com" <adam@nostrum.com>
Thread-Topic: [stir] [EXTERNAL] Re:  PASSporT extensions: order of claims
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Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2018 19:09:44 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/stir/ungvbngBoWolGSynq6642R_U1SE>
Subject: Re: [stir] [EXTERNAL] Re:  PASSporT extensions: order of claims
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/stir/f5CferJl2oM7bhOW9m1UopfpRls>
Subject: [stir] Thursday lunch discussion on new techniques for stopping robocalling
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 Folks -

The problem of robocalling on the PSTN has only continued to increase over
the last few years. As with any battle this significant, we need multiple
tools on the table that can be used to fight it. Recently, Cullen and I
proposed some new ideas for techniques to work in concert with STIR -
notably https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rosenberg-stir-sipcoin-00 and
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00.html . We'd
like to hold a lunch discussion to discuss these concepts and more
importantly, discuss other possible ideas people have on work the IETF can
do to increase the number of weapons in the arsenal.

We've got a room booked on Thursday lunch, room Hilton Meeting Rooms 1-4.
Anyone who'd like to discuss is welcome to join.

Thx,
Jonathan R.


-- 
Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D.
jdrosen@jdrosen.net
http://www.jdrosen.net

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<div dir=3D"ltr">


<span><div>Folks -=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>The problem of robocallin=
g on the PSTN has only continued to increase over the last few years. As wi=
th any battle this significant, we need multiple tools on the table that ca=
n be used to fight it. Recently, Cullen and I proposed some new ideas for t=
echniques to work in concert with STIR - notably=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://to=
ols.ietf.org/html/draft-rosenberg-stir-sipcoin-00" style=3D"font-family: Se=
goe\ UI; font-size: 9pt;">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rosenberg-stir-=
sipcoin-00</a>=C2=A0and=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-r=
osenberg-stir-callback-00.html" style=3D"font-family: Segoe\ UI; font-size:=
 9pt;">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00.html</a=
>=C2=A0. We&#39;d like to hold a lunch discussion to discuss these concepts=
 and more importantly, discuss other possible ideas people have on work the=
 IETF can do to increase the number of weapons in the arsenal.</div><div><b=
r></div><div>We&#39;ve got a room booked on Thursday lunch, room <span styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(52,53,55);font-family:-apple-system,&quot;Segoe UI Semilight=
&quot;,sans-serif;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font=
-weight:300;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:21.3281px;text-align:left;tex=
t-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px;back=
ground-color:rgb(245,245,246);display:inline;float:none">Hilton Meeting Roo=
ms 1-4</span>. Anyone who&#39;d like to discuss is welcome to join.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>Thx,</div><div>Jonathan R.</div></span>



<br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=
=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr">Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D.<br><a href=
=3D"mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net" target=3D"_blank">jdrosen@jdrosen.net</a><b=
r><a href=3D"http://www.jdrosen.net" target=3D"_blank">http://www.jdrosen.n=
et</a></div></div>
</div>

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From: Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2018 10:58:14 -0700
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To: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@jdrosen.net>
Cc: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion <art@ietf.org>, stir@ietf.org,  Jennings Cullen <fluffy@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [stir] [art] Thursday lunch discussion on new techniques for stopping robocalling
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Hi Jonathan, Cullen,

I was somewhat surprised that the draft did not have a direct reference to
the SIP Hashcash work (especially since Cullen was the author of
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-sip-hashcash-06).  From my
perspective at least, it still looks to be a useful historical antecedent
to consult, since it is a proof-of-work system (and one on which a bunch of
later cryptocurrencies draw).  In particular, its view that this is about a
demonstration of work rather than a payment to send may still be a valuable
perspective.

http://www.hashcash.org/ still appears to be up, by the way, for folks that
want to see how its original use case tied into thwarting denial of service
attacks.

Ted

On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 6:33 AM, Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@jdrosen.net>
wrote:

> Folks -
>
> The problem of robocalling on the PSTN has only continued to increase over
> the last few years. As with any battle this significant, we need multiple
> tools on the table that can be used to fight it. Recently, Cullen and I
> proposed some new ideas for techniques to work in concert with STIR -
> notably https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rosenberg-stir-sipcoin-00 and
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00.html . We'd
> like to hold a lunch discussion to discuss these concepts and more
> importantly, discuss other possible ideas people have on work the IETF can
> do to increase the number of weapons in the arsenal.
>
> We've got a room booked on Thursday lunch, room Hilton Meeting Rooms 1-4.
> Anyone who'd like to discuss is welcome to join.
>
> Thx,
> Jonathan R.
>
>
> --
> Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D.
> jdrosen@jdrosen.net
> http://www.jdrosen.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> art mailing list
> art@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art
>
>

--000000000000d459d205679f79c7
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>Hi Jonathan, Cullen,<br><br></div>I was somewhat=
 surprised that the draft did not have a direct reference to the SIP Hashca=
sh work (especially since Cullen was the author of <a href=3D"https://tools=
.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-sip-hashcash-06">https://tools.ietf.org/html/=
draft-jennings-sip-hashcash-06</a>).=C2=A0 From my perspective at least, it=
 still looks to be a useful historical antecedent to consult, since it is a=
 proof-of-work system (and one on which a bunch of later cryptocurrencies d=
raw).=C2=A0 In particular, its view that this is about a demonstration of w=
ork rather than a payment to send may still be a valuable perspective. <br>=
<br><a href=3D"http://www.hashcash.org/">http://www.hashcash.org/</a> still=
 appears to be up, by the way, for folks that want to see how its original =
use case tied into thwarting denial of service attacks.<br><br></div><div>T=
ed<br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"=
>On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 6:33 AM, Jonathan Rosenberg <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net" target=3D"_blank">jdrosen@jdrosen.ne=
t</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">


<span><div>Folks -=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>The problem of robocallin=
g on the PSTN has only continued to increase over the last few years. As wi=
th any battle this significant, we need multiple tools on the table that ca=
n be used to fight it. Recently, Cullen and I proposed some new ideas for t=
echniques to work in concert with STIR - notably=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://to=
ols.ietf.org/html/draft-rosenberg-stir-sipcoin-00" target=3D"_blank">https:=
//tools.ietf.<wbr>org/html/draft-rosenberg-stir-<wbr>sipcoin-00</a>=C2=A0an=
d=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rosenberg-stir-callback=
-00.html" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.<wbr>ietf.org/html/draft-rosenber=
g-<wbr>stir-callback-00.html</a>=C2=A0. We&#39;d like to hold a lunch discu=
ssion to discuss these concepts and more importantly, discuss other possibl=
e ideas people have on work the IETF can do to increase the number of weapo=
ns in the arsenal.</div><div><br></div><div>We&#39;ve got a room booked on =
Thursday lunch, room <span style=3D"color:rgb(52,53,55);font-family:-apple-=
system,&quot;Segoe UI Semilight&quot;,sans-serif;font-size:14px;font-style:=
normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:300;letter-spacing:normal;line-heigh=
t:21.3281px;text-align:left;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space=
:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(245,245,246);display:inline=
;float:none">Hilton Meeting Rooms 1-4</span>. Anyone who&#39;d like to disc=
uss is welcome to join.</div><div><br></div><div>Thx,</div><div>Jonathan R.=
</div></span><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">



<br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div class=3D"m_-2275070884823579216gmail_sign=
ature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr">Jonathan Rosenbe=
rg, Ph.D.<br><a href=3D"mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net" target=3D"_blank">jdros=
en@jdrosen.net</a><br><a href=3D"http://www.jdrosen.net" target=3D"_blank">=
http://www.jdrosen.net</a></div></div>
</font></span></div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
art mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:art@ietf.org">art@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/art</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

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From: Jonathan Nelson <jnelson@hiya.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2018 12:10:02 -0700
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Subject: Re: [stir] Thursday lunch discussion on new techniques for stopping robocalling
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Unfortunately I'm in DC during this meeting for the FCC/FTC joint session
on robocalling 3/23. Any chance of setting up a bridge for this lunch
discussion?

Thanks,

Jonathan Nelson
Hiya Spam and Caller ID

On Mar 17, 2018 6:34 AM, "Jonathan Rosenberg" <jdrosen@jdrosen.net> wrote:

Folks -

The problem of robocalling on the PSTN has only continued to increase over
the last few years. As with any battle this significant, we need multiple
tools on the table that can be used to fight it. Recently, Cullen and I
proposed some new ideas for techniques to work in concert with STIR -
notably https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rosenberg-stir-sipcoin-00 and
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00.html . We'd
like to hold a lunch discussion to discuss these concepts and more
importantly, discuss other possible ideas people have on work the IETF can
do to increase the number of weapons in the arsenal.

We've got a room booked on Thursday lunch, room Hilton Meeting Rooms 1-4.
Anyone who'd like to discuss is welcome to join.

Thx,
Jonathan R.


-- 
Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D.
jdrosen@jdrosen.net
http://www.jdrosen.net

_______________________________________________
stir mailing list
stir@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir

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<div dir=3D"auto"><div>Unfortunately I&#39;m in DC during this meeting for =
the FCC/FTC joint session on robocalling 3/23. Any chance of setting up a b=
ridge for this lunch discussion?=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><di=
v dir=3D"auto">Thanks,=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"a=
uto">Jonathan Nelson=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto">Hiya Spam and Caller ID=
=C2=A0<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra" dir=3D"auto"><br><div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote">On Mar 17, 2018 6:34 AM, &quot;Jonathan Rosenberg&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net">jdrosen@jdrosen.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=
=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bor=
der-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">


<span><div>Folks -=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>The problem of robocallin=
g on the PSTN has only continued to increase over the last few years. As wi=
th any battle this significant, we need multiple tools on the table that ca=
n be used to fight it. Recently, Cullen and I proposed some new ideas for t=
echniques to work in concert with STIR - notably=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://to=
ols.ietf.org/html/draft-rosenberg-stir-sipcoin-00" target=3D"_blank">https:=
//tools.ietf.<wbr>org/html/draft-rosenberg-stir-<wbr>sipcoin-00</a>=C2=A0an=
d=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rosenberg-stir-callback=
-00.html" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.<wbr>ietf.org/html/draft-rosenber=
g-<wbr>stir-callback-00.html</a>=C2=A0. We&#39;d like to hold a lunch discu=
ssion to discuss these concepts and more importantly, discuss other possibl=
e ideas people have on work the IETF can do to increase the number of weapo=
ns in the arsenal.</div><div><br></div><div>We&#39;ve got a room booked on =
Thursday lunch, room <span style=3D"color:rgb(52,53,55);font-family:-apple-=
system,&quot;Segoe UI Semilight&quot;,sans-serif;font-size:14px;font-style:=
normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:300;letter-spacing:normal;line-heigh=
t:21.3281px;text-align:left;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space=
:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(245,245,246);display:inline=
;float:none">Hilton Meeting Rooms 1-4</span>. Anyone who&#39;d like to disc=
uss is welcome to join.</div><div><br></div><div>Thx,</div><div>Jonathan R.=
</div></span><font color=3D"#888888">



<br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div class=3D"m_-6324111034621711962gmail_sign=
ature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr">Jonathan Rosenbe=
rg, Ph.D.<br><a href=3D"mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net" target=3D"_blank">jdros=
en@jdrosen.net</a><br><a href=3D"http://www.jdrosen.net" target=3D"_blank">=
http://www.jdrosen.net</a></div></div>
</font></div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
stir mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org">stir@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/stir</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>

--001a113e2324d04f6a0567a078c2--


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From: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@jdrosen.net>
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2018 15:27:02 -0400
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To: Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@jdrosen.net>,  Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion <art@ietf.org>, stir@ietf.org, Jennings Cullen <fluffy@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [stir] [art] Thursday lunch discussion on new techniques for stopping robocalling
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This is mostly to blame on getting the draft together last minute. Of
course we're familiar with that document ;) We'll get that fixed in the
next rev.

The SIPCoin doc makes reference to the technique even though it omits the
citation. draft-jennings-sip-hashcash is in the category of challenge-based
solutions described in Section 6 of the draft. The problem with these
approaches in general is that, any amount of compute that incurs an actual
useful cost, would take far too long to perform, and thus impact actual
call setup delays. Bad guys and larger players might get around this by
distributing the work across machines in parallel, but it punishes the
'normal guy', which is not what we want.

Thx,
Jonathan R.

On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 1:58 PM, Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Jonathan, Cullen,
>
> I was somewhat surprised that the draft did not have a direct reference to
> the SIP Hashcash work (especially since Cullen was the author of
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-sip-hashcash-06).  From my
> perspective at least, it still looks to be a useful historical antecedent
> to consult, since it is a proof-of-work system (and one on which a bunch of
> later cryptocurrencies draw).  In particular, its view that this is about a
> demonstration of work rather than a payment to send may still be a valuable
> perspective.
>
> http://www.hashcash.org/ still appears to be up, by the way, for folks
> that want to see how its original use case tied into thwarting denial of
> service attacks.
>
> Ted
>
> On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 6:33 AM, Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@jdrosen.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Folks -
>>
>> The problem of robocalling on the PSTN has only continued to increase
>> over the last few years. As with any battle this significant, we need
>> multiple tools on the table that can be used to fight it. Recently, Cullen
>> and I proposed some new ideas for techniques to work in concert with STIR -
>> notably https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rosenberg-stir-sipcoin-00 and
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00.html . We'd
>> like to hold a lunch discussion to discuss these concepts and more
>> importantly, discuss other possible ideas people have on work the IETF can
>> do to increase the number of weapons in the arsenal.
>>
>> We've got a room booked on Thursday lunch, room Hilton Meeting Rooms 1-4.
>> Anyone who'd like to discuss is welcome to join.
>>
>> Thx,
>> Jonathan R.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D.
>> jdrosen@jdrosen.net
>> http://www.jdrosen.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> art mailing list
>> art@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art
>>
>>
>


-- 
Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D.
jdrosen@jdrosen.net
http://www.jdrosen.net

--00000000000095b8c40567a0b5a2
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">This is mostly to blame on getting the draft together last=
 minute. Of course we&#39;re familiar with that document ;) We&#39;ll get t=
hat fixed in the next rev.<div><br></div><div>The SIPCoin doc makes referen=
ce to the technique even though it omits the citation. draft-jennings-sip-h=
ashcash is in the category of challenge-based solutions described in Sectio=
n 6 of the draft. The problem with these approaches in general is that, any=
 amount of compute that incurs an actual useful cost, would take far too lo=
ng to perform, and thus impact actual call setup delays. Bad guys and large=
r players might get around this by distributing the work across machines in=
 parallel, but it punishes the &#39;normal guy&#39;, which is not what we w=
ant.</div><div><br></div><div>Thx,</div><div>Jonathan R.</div></div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at =
1:58 PM, Ted Hardie <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ted.ietf@gmail.=
com" target=3D"_blank">ted.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
olid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>Hi Jonathan, Cullen,<br><=
br></div>I was somewhat surprised that the draft did not have a direct refe=
rence to the SIP Hashcash work (especially since Cullen was the author of <=
a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-sip-hashcash-06" targe=
t=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-jennings-sip-hashcash-0=
6</a><wbr>).=C2=A0 From my perspective at least, it still looks to be a use=
ful historical antecedent to consult, since it is a proof-of-work system (a=
nd one on which a bunch of later cryptocurrencies draw).=C2=A0 In particula=
r, its view that this is about a demonstration of work rather than a paymen=
t to send may still be a valuable perspective. <br><br><a href=3D"http://ww=
w.hashcash.org/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.hashcash.org/</a> still appea=
rs to be up, by the way, for folks that want to see how its original use ca=
se tied into thwarting denial of service attacks.<br><br></div><div>Ted<br>=
</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=
<div class=3D"h5">On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 6:33 AM, Jonathan Rosenberg <span=
 dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net" target=3D"_blank">j=
drosen@jdrosen.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></div></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div><div class=3D"h5"><div dir=3D"ltr">


<span><div>Folks -=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>The problem of robocallin=
g on the PSTN has only continued to increase over the last few years. As wi=
th any battle this significant, we need multiple tools on the table that ca=
n be used to fight it. Recently, Cullen and I proposed some new ideas for t=
echniques to work in concert with STIR - notably=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://to=
ols.ietf.org/html/draft-rosenberg-stir-sipcoin-00" target=3D"_blank">https:=
//tools.ietf.org<wbr>/html/draft-rosenberg-stir-sip<wbr>coin-00</a>=C2=A0an=
d=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rosenberg-stir-callback=
-00.html" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf<wbr>.org/html/draft-rosenber=
g-stir<wbr>-callback-00.html</a>=C2=A0. We&#39;d like to hold a lunch discu=
ssion to discuss these concepts and more importantly, discuss other possibl=
e ideas people have on work the IETF can do to increase the number of weapo=
ns in the arsenal.</div><div><br></div><div>We&#39;ve got a room booked on =
Thursday lunch, room <span style=3D"color:rgb(52,53,55);font-family:-apple-=
system,&quot;Segoe UI Semilight&quot;,sans-serif;font-size:14px;font-style:=
normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:300;letter-spacing:normal;line-heigh=
t:21.3281px;text-align:left;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space=
:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(245,245,246);display:inline=
;float:none">Hilton Meeting Rooms 1-4</span>. Anyone who&#39;d like to disc=
uss is welcome to join.</div><div><br></div><div>Thx,</div><div>Jonathan R.=
</div></span><span class=3D"m_-5358077214494651132HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#8=
88888">



<br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div class=3D"m_-5358077214494651132m_-2275070=
884823579216gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D=
"ltr">Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D.<br><a href=3D"mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net" t=
arget=3D"_blank">jdrosen@jdrosen.net</a><br><a href=3D"http://www.jdrosen.n=
et" target=3D"_blank">http://www.jdrosen.net</a></div></div>
</font></span></div>
<br></div></div>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
art mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:art@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">art@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/art</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=
=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr">Jo=
nathan Rosenberg, Ph.D.<br><a href=3D"mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net" target=3D=
"_blank">jdrosen@jdrosen.net</a><br><a href=3D"http://www.jdrosen.net" targ=
et=3D"_blank">http://www.jdrosen.net</a></div></div>
</div>

--00000000000095b8c40567a0b5a2--


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Subject: Re: [stir] [art] Thursday lunch discussion on new techniques for stopping robocalling
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> On Mar 17, 2018, at 10:58 AM, Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Jonathan, Cullen,
>=20
> I was somewhat surprised that the draft did not have a direct =
reference to the SIP Hashcash work (especially since Cullen was the =
author of https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-sip-hashcash-06).  =
=46rom my perspective at least, it still looks to be a useful historical =
antecedent to consult, since it is a proof-of-work system (and one on =
which a bunch of later cryptocurrencies draw).  In particular, its view =
that this is about a demonstration of work rather than a payment to send =
may still be a valuable perspective.=20
>=20
> http://www.hashcash.org/ still appears to be up, by the way, for folks =
that want to see how its original use case tied into thwarting denial of =
service attacks.

I hope someone is soliciting input from the email community, who went =
through this process a decade or so ago and noted that bad actors have =
much, much cheaper access to CPU for proof-of-work than good actors do.

Cheers,
  Steve=


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From: Henning Schulzrinne <hgs@cs.columbia.edu>
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2018 17:08:41 -0400
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To: Steve Atkins <steve@wordtothewise.com>
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Subject: Re: [stir] [art] Thursday lunch discussion on new techniques for stopping robocalling
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--0000000000005c2e7c0567a222ae
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

I admit that I'm less than thrilled with having VoIP add to global warming.
Is that really what we want to accomplish, just as other blockchain-like
systems are getting, rightfully, dinged for that?

We have to consider that the most likely parties affected will be
legitimate mass callers, e.g., for emergency notifications or appointment
reminders, increasing their costs for no particularly good reason. As long
as this isn't universal, the bad guys will simply avoid such destinations.
(They don't seem to be focusing on the PBX market anyway - they may suspect
that corporate offices are not promising target markets for cruise deals
and credit repair pitches.)

Henning

On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 4:49 PM, Steve Atkins <steve@wordtothewise.com>
wrote:

>
> > On Mar 17, 2018, at 10:58 AM, Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Jonathan, Cullen,
> >
> > I was somewhat surprised that the draft did not have a direct reference
> to the SIP Hashcash work (especially since Cullen was the author of
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-sip-hashcash-06).  From my
> perspective at least, it still looks to be a useful historical antecedent
> to consult, since it is a proof-of-work system (and one on which a bunch of
> later cryptocurrencies draw).  In particular, its view that this is about a
> demonstration of work rather than a payment to send may still be a valuable
> perspective.
> >
> > http://www.hashcash.org/ still appears to be up, by the way, for folks
> that want to see how its original use case tied into thwarting denial of
> service attacks.
>
> I hope someone is soliciting input from the email community, who went
> through this process a decade or so ago and noted that bad actors have
> much, much cheaper access to CPU for proof-of-work than good actors do.
>
> Cheers,
>   Steve
> _______________________________________________
> art mailing list
> art@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art
>

--0000000000005c2e7c0567a222ae
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr">I admit that I&#39;m less than thrilled with having VoIP a=
dd to global warming. Is that really what we want to accomplish, just as ot=
her blockchain-like systems are getting, rightfully, dinged for that?<div><=
br></div><div>We have to consider that the most likely parties affected wil=
l be legitimate mass callers, e.g., for emergency notifications or appointm=
ent reminders, increasing their costs for no particularly good reason. As l=
ong as this isn&#39;t universal, the bad guys will simply avoid such destin=
ations. (They don&#39;t seem to be focusing on the PBX market anyway - they=
 may suspect that corporate offices are not promising target markets for cr=
uise deals and credit repair pitches.)<br><div><br></div><div>Henning</div>=
</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sa=
t, Mar 17, 2018 at 4:49 PM, Steve Atkins <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:steve@wordtothewise.com" target=3D"_blank">steve@wordtothewise.com</a=
>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
&gt; On Mar 17, 2018, at 10:58 AM, Ted Hardie &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ted.iet=
f@gmail.com">ted.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Hi Jonathan, Cullen,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I was somewhat surprised that the draft did not have a direct referenc=
e to the SIP Hashcash work (especially since Cullen was the author of <a hr=
ef=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-sip-hashcash-06" rel=3D"no=
referrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-jennings=
-sip-hashcash-06</a><wbr>).=C2=A0 From my perspective at least, it still lo=
oks to be a useful historical antecedent to consult, since it is a proof-of=
-work system (and one on which a bunch of later cryptocurrencies draw).=C2=
=A0 In particular, its view that this is about a demonstration of work rath=
er than a payment to send may still be a valuable perspective.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.hashcash.org/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_bla=
nk">http://www.hashcash.org/</a> still appears to be up, by the way, for fo=
lks that want to see how its original use case tied into thwarting denial o=
f service attacks.<br>
<br>
I hope someone is soliciting input from the email community, who went throu=
gh this process a decade or so ago and noted that bad actors have much, muc=
h cheaper access to CPU for proof-of-work than good actors do.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
=C2=A0 Steve<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
art mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:art@ietf.org">art@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/art</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

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Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2018 17:40:44 -0400
From: Richard Shockey <richard@shockey.us>
To: Henning Schulzrinne <hgs@cs.columbia.edu>, Steve Atkins <steve@wordtothewise.com>
CC: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion <art@ietf.org>, <stir@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [stir] [art] Thursday lunch discussion on new techniques for stopping robocalling
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Subject: Re: [stir] [art] Thursday lunch discussion on new techniques for stopping robocalling
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=20

+1=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=98=BA=C2=A0=20

=20

=E2=80=94=20

Richard Shockey

Shockey Consulting LLC

Chairman of the Board SIP Forum

www.shockey.us

www.sipforum.org

richard<at>shockey.us

Skype-Linkedin-Facebook =E2=80=93Twitter  rshockey101

PSTN +1 703-593-2683

=20

From: stir <stir-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Henning Schulzrinne <hgs@cs=
.columbia.edu>
Date: Saturday, March 17, 2018 at 5:08 PM
To: Steve Atkins <steve@wordtothewise.com>
Cc: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion <art@ietf.org>, <stir@ietf.o=
rg>
Subject: Re: [stir] [art] Thursday lunch discussion on new techniques for s=
topping robocalling

=20

I admit that I'm less than thrilled with having VoIP add to global warming.=
 Is that really what we want to accomplish, just as other blockchain-like sy=
stems are getting, rightfully, dinged for that?

=20

We have to consider that the most likely parties affected will be legitimat=
e mass callers, e.g., for emergency notifications or appointment reminders, =
increasing their costs for no particularly good reason. As long as this isn'=
t universal, the bad guys will simply avoid such destinations. (They don't s=
eem to be focusing on the PBX market anyway - they may suspect that corporat=
e offices are not promising target markets for cruise deals and credit repai=
r pitches.)

=20

Henning

=20

On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 4:49 PM, Steve Atkins <steve@wordtothewise.com> wro=
te:


> On Mar 17, 2018, at 10:58 AM, Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Jonathan, Cullen,
>
> I was somewhat surprised that the draft did not have a direct reference t=
o the SIP Hashcash work (especially since Cullen was the author of https://t=
ools.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-sip-hashcash-06).  From my perspective at =
least, it still looks to be a useful historical antecedent to consult, since=
 it is a proof-of-work system (and one on which a bunch of later cryptocurre=
ncies draw).  In particular, its view that this is about a demonstration of =
work rather than a payment to send may still be a valuable perspective.
>
> http://www.hashcash.org/ still appears to be up, by the way, for folks th=
at want to see how its original use case tied into thwarting denial of servi=
ce attacks.

I hope someone is soliciting input from the email community, who went throu=
gh this process a decade or so ago and noted that bad actors have much, much=
 cheaper access to CPU for proof-of-work than good actors do.

Cheers,
  Steve
_______________________________________________
art mailing list
art@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art

=20

_______________________________________________ stir mailing list stir@ietf=
.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir=20


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gin-bottom:1.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-add-space:auto'><span style=3D'font-size:=
8.0pt;color:black'>Richard Shockey<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D=
MsoNormalCxSpMiddle style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:1.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:1.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-add-space:auto'><span style=3D'font-size:8.0p=
t;color:black'>Shockey Consulting LLC<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormalCxSpMiddle style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:1.0pt;margin-right:0in;marg=
in-bottom:1.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-add-space:auto'><span style=3D'font-size:8=
.0pt;color:black'>Chairman of the Board SIP Forum<o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormalCxSpMiddle style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:1.0pt;margin-ri=
ght:0in;margin-bottom:1.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-add-space:auto'><span style=3D=
'font-size:8.0pt;color:black'>www.shockey.us<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div=
><p class=3DMsoNormalCxSpMiddle style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:1.0pt;margin-right:0=
in;margin-bottom:1.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-add-space:auto'><span style=3D'font=
-size:8.0pt;color:black'>www.sipforum.org<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormalCxSpMiddle style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:1.0pt;margin-right:0in;=
margin-bottom:1.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-add-space:auto'><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:8.0pt;color:black'>richard&lt;at&gt;shockey.us<o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormalCxSpMiddle style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:1.0pt;margin-ri=
ght:0in;margin-bottom:1.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-add-space:auto'><span style=3D=
'font-size:8.0pt;color:black'>Skype-Linkedin-Facebook =E2=80=93Twitter &nbsp;rshoc=
key101<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormalCxSpMiddle style=3D'm=
so-margin-top-alt:1.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:1.0pt;margin-left:0in=
;mso-add-space:auto'><span style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;color:black'>PSTN +1 703-5=
93-2683<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>=
From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>stir &lt;stir-bo=
unces@ietf.org&gt; on behalf of Henning Schulzrinne &lt;hgs@cs.columbia.edu&=
gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Saturday, March 17, 2018 at 5:08 PM<br><b>To: </b>Steve =
Atkins &lt;steve@wordtothewise.com&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>Applications and Real-T=
ime Area Discussion &lt;art@ietf.org&gt;, &lt;stir@ietf.org&gt;<br><b>Subjec=
t: </b>Re: [stir] [art] Thursday lunch discussion on new techniques for stop=
ping robocalling<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><a name=3D"_MailOriginalBody">I adm=
it that I'm less than thrilled with having VoIP add to global warming. Is th=
at really what we want to accomplish, just as other blockchain-like systems =
are getting, rightfully, dinged for that?<o:p></o:p></a></p><div><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><span style=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span=
></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBo=
dy'>We have to consider that the most likely parties affected will be legiti=
mate mass callers, e.g., for emergency notifications or appointment reminder=
s, increasing their costs for no particularly good reason. As long as this i=
sn't universal, the bad guys will simply avoid such destinations. (They don'=
t seem to be focusing on the PBX market anyway - they may suspect that corpo=
rate offices are not promising target markets for cruise deals and credit re=
pair pitches.)<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso=
-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody'>Henning<o:p></o:p></=
span></p></div></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-bookmark=
:_MailOriginalBody'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><spa=
n style=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody'>On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 4:49 PM, St=
eve Atkins &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:steve@wordtothewise.com" target=3D"_blan=
k"><span style=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody'>steve@wordtothewise.com</spa=
n><span style=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody'></span></a><span style=3D'mso-b=
ookmark:_MailOriginalBody'>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><blockquote styl=
e=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;mar=
gin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-bookmar=
k:_MailOriginalBody'><br>&gt; On Mar 17, 2018, at 10:58 AM, Ted Hardie &lt;<=
/span><a href=3D"mailto:ted.ietf@gmail.com"><span style=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailOri=
ginalBody'>ted.ietf@gmail.com</span><span style=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalB=
ody'></span></a><span style=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody'>&gt; wrote:<br>=
&gt;<br>&gt; Hi Jonathan, Cullen,<br>&gt;<br>&gt; I was somewhat surprised t=
hat the draft did not have a direct reference to the SIP Hashcash work (espe=
cially since Cullen was the author of </span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org=
/html/draft-jennings-sip-hashcash-06" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D'mso-bookm=
ark:_MailOriginalBody'>https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-sip-hashca=
sh-06</span><span style=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody'></span></a><span st=
yle=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody'>).&nbsp; From my perspective at least, =
it still looks to be a useful historical antecedent to consult, since it is =
a proof-of-work system (and one on which a bunch of later cryptocurrencies d=
raw).&nbsp; In particular, its view that this is about a demonstration of wo=
rk rather than a payment to send may still be a valuable perspective.<br>&gt=
;<br>&gt; </span><a href=3D"http://www.hashcash.org/" target=3D"_blank"><span st=
yle=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody'>http://www.hashcash.org/</span><span st=
yle=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody'></span></a><span style=3D'mso-bookmark:_M=
ailOriginalBody'> still appears to be up, by the way, for folks that want to=
 see how its original use case tied into thwarting denial of service attacks=
.<br><br>I hope someone is soliciting input from the email community, who we=
nt through this process a decade or so ago and noted that bad actors have mu=
ch, much cheaper access to CPU for proof-of-work than good actors do.<br><br=
>Cheers,<br>&nbsp; Steve<br>_______________________________________________<=
br>art mailing list<br></span><a href=3D"mailto:art@ietf.org"><span style=3D'mso=
-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody'>art@ietf.org</span><span style=3D'mso-bookmark:_M=
ailOriginalBody'></span></a><span style=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody'><br=
></span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/art" target=3D"_blank">=
<span style=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody'>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/li=
stinfo/art</span><span style=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody'></span></a><sp=
an style=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody'><o:p></o:p></span></p></blockquote=
></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody'><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-bookmark:_M=
ailOriginalBody'>_______________________________________________ stir mailin=
g list stir@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir </span><o:p>=
</o:p></p></div></body></html>

--B_3604153244_2144703146--



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From: Tim Hollebeek <tim.hollebeek@digicert.com>
To: Cullen Jennings <fluffy@iii.ca>, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>
CC: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@jdrosen.net>, "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [stir] SIPCoin - a new cryptocurrency for stopping robocalls
Thread-Index: AQHTsngsTnylzONuGkmJ8pKXnnc3mKO/NE2AgAccMICAESQ4YA==
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 10:49:07 +0000
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References: <CA+23+fFUEESKoQXtoAwg6ySovUb5-Eiy98_wdukcLKQNOrcn3A@mail.gmail.com> <64ca7065-a73d-ce53-d715-a5569823a3c2@nostrum.com> <9E1327D0-EEE7-4AFD-9E42-91A355683820@iii.ca>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/stir/SkX61VIzkawgTNCmWq-RnJR7gPI>
Subject: Re: [stir] SIPCoin - a new cryptocurrency for stopping robocalls
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=20

So, that environmental computation assumes that the energy input comes =
from fossil fuel, and the heat output is a useless waste product that =
has no value.

=20

This is in fact largely true for mining operations that are sited =
primarily based on access to the cheapest carbon electricity in order to =
maximize profits, and then cool them to keep them operating.  Which is =
likely to be true today in many cases.

=20

However, there are other use cases where you put your crypto miners in a =
location where you would otherwise be using an electric heater, using =
responsibly sourced electricity.  Crypto miners can also be seen as very =
expensive electric heaters, that also produce a computational side =
benefit.

=20

>From that point of view (setting aside the question of whether mining =
cryptocurrency is useful computational work and whether there is another =
kind of computation that is more valuable for the same energy cost), is =
there an economical way to upgrade all the world=E2=80=99s electric =
heaters to provide useful computation resources available on demand as =
part of some sort of network?

=20

That would have a much larger ecological impact if someone figures it =
out.  Moving computation to where heating is required makes more sense =
than providing cooling where computation is required.  Unfortunately =
it=E2=80=99s also generally much harder, which is why we often =
don=E2=80=99t do it today.

=20

But I just wanted to throw it out there in case it inspires someone =
else.

=20

-Tim

=20

From: stir [mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Cullen Jennings
Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2018 12:41 PM
To: Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>
Cc: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@jdrosen.net>; stir@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [stir] SIPCoin - a new cryptocurrency for stopping =
robocalls

=20

=20

So as a super casual analysis of the current draft,=20

=20

Lets say we need order of magnitude 10 cents to stop spam, that equates =
to something like 1KW, which equates to something like 1Kg of CO2. Each =
of of those steps is only an order go magnitude estimate so this cab be =
way out but you get the idea. So we would have a one time, assuming =
major carriers shared validation data,  ( or small number of times ) =
validation of the self signed cert and each validation would take about =
1 Kg CO2. That sounds really bad. But for comparisons sake, your flight =
to IETF is probably over 1000 Kg and it is not a one time event

=20

But all that said, I don=E2=80=99t think we would actually go for with =
something as simple as pure proof of work based approach so I =
don=E2=80=99t think that is a realistic look at the power usage. There =
are a bunch of techniques that add to the complexity but greatly reduce =
the reliance on proof work and more move to things like proof of stake =
or more risk based approaches. Solutions like that could greatly reduce =
the power usage. Keep in mind reducing the amount of spam calls would =
reduce the power usage of the whole phone system.=20

=20





On Mar 3, 2018, at 5:06 PM, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com =
<mailto:adam@nostrum.com> > wrote:

=20

One of the issues that has arisen in parallel with cryptocurrencies is a =
recognition of the exorbitant energy (and therefore environmental) costs =
they entail. I think this document probably requires a section =
addressing this aspect of the system, including any ways that it varies =
significantly from traditional cryptocurrencies in this regard.

/a

On 3/2/18 4:45 PM, Jonathan Rosenberg wrote:

Cullen and I have just submitted this:
https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-rosenberg-stir-sipcoin-00.txt

which is a proposal for a new type of cyryptocurrency dedicated solely =
to preventing spam on the SIP-based phone network. It is designed to be =
fast, causing less than one second increases in call setup time. =
NOn-transferrable to avoid being a tool for fraud and avoid being tied =
to market whim; backed by public CAs with a new type of centralized =
ledger validation; trivially verifiable by receivers of calls. Also we =
suggest a technique for incremental deployment on the PSTN which has =
incremental benefits and economic benefits for each deployment phase. =
We've done some analysis on the economics to help motivate the solution.

WHen combined with our previous draft, and some nice whitelisting thrown =
in as described in here, I think this is a very interested technique to =
put this robocalling plague to rest.

I'm coming to London and looking forward to discussing.=20

Comments are, of course, welcome.



--=20

Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D.
jdrosen@jdrosen.net <mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net>=20
http://www.jdrosen.net <http://www.jdrosen.net/>=20






_______________________________________________
stir mailing list
stir@ietf.org <mailto:stir@ietf.org>=20
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir

=20

_______________________________________________
stir mailing list
stir@ietf.org <mailto:stir@ietf.org>=20
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir

=20


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>So, that =
environmental computation assumes that the energy input comes from =
fossil fuel, and the heat output is a useless waste product that has no =
value.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>This is in fact largely true for mining operations =
that are sited primarily based on access to the cheapest carbon =
electricity in order to maximize profits, and then cool them to keep =
them operating.=C2=A0 Which is likely to be true today in many =
cases.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>However, there are other use cases where you put your =
crypto miners in a location where you would otherwise be using an =
electric heater, using responsibly sourced electricity.=C2=A0 Crypto =
miners can also be seen as very expensive electric heaters, that also =
produce a computational side benefit.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>From that =
point of view (setting aside the question of whether mining =
cryptocurrency is useful computational work and whether there is another =
kind of computation that is more valuable for the same energy cost), is =
there an economical way to upgrade all the world=E2=80=99s electric =
heaters to provide useful computation resources available on demand as =
part of some sort of network?<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>That would =
have a much larger ecological impact if someone figures it out.=C2=A0 =
Moving computation to where heating is required makes more sense than =
providing cooling where computation is required.=C2=A0 Unfortunately =
it=E2=80=99s also generally much harder, which is why we often =
don=E2=80=99t do it today.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>But I just =
wanted to throw it out there in case it inspires someone =
else.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>-Tim<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> stir =
[mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Cullen =
Jennings<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 8, 2018 12:41 PM<br><b>To:</b> =
Adam Roach &lt;adam@nostrum.com&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> Jonathan Rosenberg =
&lt;jdrosen@jdrosen.net&gt;; stir@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [stir] =
SIPCoin - a new cryptocurrency for stopping =
robocalls<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>So as =
a super casual analysis of the current =
draft,&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Lets say we need order of magnitude 10 cents to stop =
spam, that equates to something like 1KW, which equates to something =
like 1Kg of CO2. Each of of those steps is only an order go magnitude =
estimate so this cab be way out but you get the idea. So we would have a =
one time, assuming major carriers shared validation data, &nbsp;( or =
small number of times ) validation of the self signed cert and each =
validation would take about 1 Kg CO2. That sounds really bad. But for =
comparisons sake, your flight to IETF is probably over 1000 Kg and it is =
not a one time event<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>But all that said, I don=E2=80=99t think we would =
actually go for with something as simple as pure proof of work based =
approach so I don=E2=80=99t think that is a realistic look at the power =
usage. There are a bunch of techniques that add to the complexity but =
greatly reduce the reliance on proof work and more move to things like =
proof of stake or more risk based approaches. Solutions like that could =
greatly reduce the power usage. Keep in mind reducing the amount of spam =
calls would reduce the power usage of the whole phone =
system.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On Mar 3, 2018, at 5:06 PM, Adam Roach &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:adam@nostrum.com">adam@nostrum.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>One of the issues that has arisen in parallel with =
cryptocurrencies is a recognition of the exorbitant energy (and =
therefore environmental) costs they entail. I think this document =
probably requires a section addressing this aspect of the system, =
including any ways that it varies significantly from traditional =
cryptocurrencies in this regard.<br><br>/a<br><br>On 3/2/18 4:45 PM, =
Jonathan Rosenberg wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><div><div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Cullen and I have =
just submitted this:<br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-rosenberg-stir-sipcoin-00.txt">http=
s://www.ietf.org/id/draft-rosenberg-stir-sipcoin-00.txt</a><o:p></o:p></p=
></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>which is a =
proposal for a new type of cyryptocurrency dedicated solely to =
preventing spam on the SIP-based phone network. It is designed to be =
fast, causing less than one second increases in call setup time. =
NOn-transferrable to avoid being a tool for fraud and avoid being tied =
to market whim; backed by public CAs with a new type of centralized =
ledger validation; trivially verifiable by receivers of calls. Also we =
suggest a technique for incremental deployment on the PSTN which has =
incremental benefits and economic benefits for each deployment phase. =
We've done some analysis on the economics to help motivate the =
solution.<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>WHen combined with our previous draft, =
and some nice whitelisting thrown in as described in here, I think this =
is a very interested technique to put this robocalling plague to =
rest.<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>I'm coming to London and looking forward =
to discussing. <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Comments are, =
of course, welcome.<br =
clear=3Dall><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br>-- <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D.<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net" =
target=3D"_blank">jdrosen@jdrosen.net</a><br><a =
href=3D"http://www.jdrosen.net/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.jdrosen.net</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></=
div></div></div></div></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>_______________________=
________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>stir mailing =
list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a =
href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org">stir@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/stir</a><o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>stir=
 mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org">stir@ietf.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/stir</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></div></body></html>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/stir/xlcdW9J6BDVlNlvlEBOjrcc7fdI>
Subject: Re: [stir] SIPCoin - a new cryptocurrency for stopping robocalls
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See https://www.qarnot.com <https://www.qarnot.com/>. Been around for a =
few years.

> On Mar 19, 2018, at 6:49 AM, Tim Hollebeek =
<tim.hollebeek@digicert.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> So, that environmental computation assumes that the energy input comes =
from fossil fuel, and the heat output is a useless waste product that =
has no value.
>=20
> This is in fact largely true for mining operations that are sited =
primarily based on access to the cheapest carbon electricity in order to =
maximize profits, and then cool them to keep them operating.  Which is =
likely to be true today in many cases.
>=20
> However, there are other use cases where you put your crypto miners in =
a location where you would otherwise be using an electric heater, using =
responsibly sourced electricity.  Crypto miners can also be seen as very =
expensive electric heaters, that also produce a computational side =
benefit.
>=20
> =46rom that point of view (setting aside the question of whether =
mining cryptocurrency is useful computational work and whether there is =
another kind of computation that is more valuable for the same energy =
cost), is there an economical way to upgrade all the world=E2=80=99s =
electric heaters to provide useful computation resources available on =
demand as part of some sort of network?
>=20
> That would have a much larger ecological impact if someone figures it =
out.  Moving computation to where heating is required makes more sense =
than providing cooling where computation is required.  Unfortunately =
it=E2=80=99s also generally much harder, which is why we often don=E2=80=99=
t do it today.
>=20
> But I just wanted to throw it out there in case it inspires someone =
else.
>=20
> -Tim
>=20
> From: stir [mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Cullen Jennings
> Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2018 12:41 PM
> To: Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>
> Cc: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@jdrosen.net>; stir@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [stir] SIPCoin - a new cryptocurrency for stopping =
robocalls
>=20
>=20
> So as a super casual analysis of the current draft,
>=20
> Lets say we need order of magnitude 10 cents to stop spam, that =
equates to something like 1KW, which equates to something like 1Kg of =
CO2. Each of of those steps is only an order go magnitude estimate so =
this cab be way out but you get the idea. So we would have a one time, =
assuming major carriers shared validation data,  ( or small number of =
times ) validation of the self signed cert and each validation would =
take about 1 Kg CO2. That sounds really bad. But for comparisons sake, =
your flight to IETF is probably over 1000 Kg and it is not a one time =
event
>=20
> But all that said, I don=E2=80=99t think we would actually go for with =
something as simple as pure proof of work based approach so I don=E2=80=99=
t think that is a realistic look at the power usage. There are a bunch =
of techniques that add to the complexity but greatly reduce the reliance =
on proof work and more move to things like proof of stake or more risk =
based approaches. Solutions like that could greatly reduce the power =
usage. Keep in mind reducing the amount of spam calls would reduce the =
power usage of the whole phone system.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Mar 3, 2018, at 5:06 PM, Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com =
<mailto:adam@nostrum.com>> wrote:
>=20
> One of the issues that has arisen in parallel with cryptocurrencies is =
a recognition of the exorbitant energy (and therefore environmental) =
costs they entail. I think this document probably requires a section =
addressing this aspect of the system, including any ways that it varies =
significantly from traditional cryptocurrencies in this regard.
>=20
> /a
>=20
> On 3/2/18 4:45 PM, Jonathan Rosenberg wrote:
> Cullen and I have just submitted this:
> https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-rosenberg-stir-sipcoin-00.txt =
<https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-rosenberg-stir-sipcoin-00.txt>
> which is a proposal for a new type of cyryptocurrency dedicated solely =
to preventing spam on the SIP-based phone network. It is designed to be =
fast, causing less than one second increases in call setup time. =
NOn-transferrable to avoid being a tool for fraud and avoid being tied =
to market whim; backed by public CAs with a new type of centralized =
ledger validation; trivially verifiable by receivers of calls. Also we =
suggest a technique for incremental deployment on the PSTN which has =
incremental benefits and economic benefits for each deployment phase. =
We've done some analysis on the economics to help motivate the solution.
>=20
> WHen combined with our previous draft, and some nice whitelisting =
thrown in as described in here, I think this is a very interested =
technique to put this robocalling plague to rest.
>=20
> I'm coming to London and looking forward to discussing.
>=20
> Comments are, of course, welcome.
>=20
> --
> Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D.
> jdrosen@jdrosen.net <mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net>
> http://www.jdrosen.net <http://www.jdrosen.net/>
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> stir mailing list
> stir@ietf.org <mailto:stir@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> stir mailing list
> stir@ietf.org <mailto:stir@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> stir mailing list
> stir@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">See&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://www.qarnot.com" =
class=3D"">https://www.qarnot.com</a>. Been around for a few years.<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Mar 19, 2018, at 6:49 AM, Tim Hollebeek &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:tim.hollebeek@digicert.com" =
class=3D"">tim.hollebeek@digicert.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">So, that environmental computation assumes that the energy =
input comes from fossil fuel, and the heat output is a useless waste =
product that has no value.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">This is in fact largely true for mining =
operations that are sited primarily based on access to the cheapest =
carbon electricity in order to maximize profits, and then cool them to =
keep them operating.&nbsp; Which is likely to be true today in many =
cases.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">However, there are other use cases where you put your crypto =
miners in a location where you would otherwise be using an electric =
heater, using responsibly sourced electricity.&nbsp; Crypto miners can =
also be seen as very expensive electric heaters, that also produce a =
computational side benefit.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">=46rom that point of view (setting =
aside the question of whether mining cryptocurrency is useful =
computational work and whether there is another kind of computation that =
is more valuable for the same energy cost), is there an economical way =
to upgrade all the world=E2=80=99s electric heaters to provide useful =
computation resources available on demand as part of some sort of =
network?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">That would have a much larger ecological impact if someone =
figures it out.&nbsp; Moving computation to where heating is required =
makes more sense than providing cooling where computation is =
required.&nbsp; Unfortunately it=E2=80=99s also generally much harder, =
which is why we often don=E2=80=99t do it today.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">But I =
just wanted to throw it out there in case it inspires someone else.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">-Tim<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in =
0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, =
225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>stir [<a =
href=3D"mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Cullen =
Jennings<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Thursday, March 8, 2018 =
12:41 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Adam Roach &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:adam@nostrum.com" class=3D"">adam@nostrum.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Jonathan Rosenberg &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net" =
class=3D"">jdrosen@jdrosen.net</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">stir@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [stir] SIPCoin - a new =
cryptocurrency for stopping robocalls<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">So as a super casual analysis of the current draft,&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Lets say we need order of magnitude 10 =
cents to stop spam, that equates to something like 1KW, which equates to =
something like 1Kg of CO2. Each of of those steps is only an order go =
magnitude estimate so this cab be way out but you get the idea. So we =
would have a one time, assuming major carriers shared validation data, =
&nbsp;( or small number of times ) validation of the self signed cert =
and each validation would take about 1 Kg CO2. That sounds really bad. =
But for comparisons sake, your flight to IETF is probably over 1000 Kg =
and it is not a one time event<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">But all that said, I don=E2=80=99t think we would actually go =
for with something as simple as pure proof of work based approach so I =
don=E2=80=99t think that is a realistic look at the power usage. There =
are a bunch of techniques that add to the complexity but greatly reduce =
the reliance on proof work and more move to things like proof of stake =
or more risk based approaches. Solutions like that could greatly reduce =
the power usage. Keep in mind reducing the amount of spam calls would =
reduce the power usage of the whole phone system.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">On Mar 3, 2018, at 5:06 PM, Adam Roach &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:adam@nostrum.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">adam@nostrum.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">One of =
the issues that has arisen in parallel with cryptocurrencies is a =
recognition of the exorbitant energy (and therefore environmental) costs =
they entail. I think this document probably requires a section =
addressing this aspect of the system, including any ways that it varies =
significantly from traditional cryptocurrencies in this regard.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">/a<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On 3/2/18 4:45 =
PM, Jonathan Rosenberg wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote=
 style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Cullen and I have =
just submitted this:<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-rosenberg-stir-sipcoin-00.txt" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-rosenberg-stir-sipcoin-00.txt</a>=
<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">which =
is a proposal for a new type of cyryptocurrency dedicated solely to =
preventing spam on the SIP-based phone network. It is designed to be =
fast, causing less than one second increases in call setup time. =
NOn-transferrable to avoid being a tool for fraud and avoid being tied =
to market whim; backed by public CAs with a new type of centralized =
ledger validation; trivially verifiable by receivers of calls. Also we =
suggest a technique for incremental deployment on the PSTN which has =
incremental benefits and economic benefits for each deployment phase. =
We've done some analysis on the economics to help motivate the =
solution.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;">WHen combined with our previous draft, and some nice =
whitelisting thrown in as described in here, I think this is a very =
interested technique to put this robocalling plague to rest.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">I'm coming =
to London and looking forward to discussing.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Comments =
are, of course, welcome.<br clear=3D"all" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">--<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D.<br =
class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">jdrosen@jdrosen.net</a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.jdrosen.net/" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">http://www.jdrosen.net</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><di=
v style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D"">stir mailing =
list<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">stir@ietf.org</a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre></blockquote><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">stir mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">stir@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div></div><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">stir mailing list</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">stir@ietf.org</a></span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir</a></span></div></bl=
ockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From nobody Mon Mar 19 10:06:41 2018
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Cc: Applications and Real-Time Area Discussion <art@ietf.org>, stir@ietf.org
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Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 10:00:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com>
In-reply-to: "Your message dated Sat, 17 Mar 2018 13:49:13 -0700" <1760564F-45CC-4EE2-869A-76EDB434694A@wordtothewise.com>
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To: Steve Atkins <steve@wordtothewise.com>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/stir/3sNsOqxQD87Y_3oSWh-GrM5JxDE>
Subject: Re: [stir] [art] Thursday lunch discussion on new techniques for stopping robocalling
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> > On Mar 17, 2018, at 10:58 AM, Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Jonathan, Cullen,
> >
> > I was somewhat surprised that the draft did not have a direct reference to the SIP Hashcash work (especially since Cullen was the author of https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-sip-hashcash-06).  From my perspective at least, it still looks to be a useful historical antecedent to consult, since it is a proof-of-work system (and one on which a bunch of later cryptocurrencies draw).  In particular, its view that this is about a demonstration of work rather than a payment to send may still be a valuable perspective.
> >
> > http://www.hashcash.org/ still appears to be up, by the way, for folks that want to see how its original use case tied into thwarting denial of service attacks.

> I hope someone is soliciting input from the email community, who went through
> this process a decade or so ago and noted that bad actors have much, much
> cheaper access to CPU for proof-of-work than good actors do.

+1

And if anything it's even more lopsided now.

				Ned


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Subject: [stir] I-D Action: draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-02.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Secure Telephone Identity Revisited WG of the IETF.

        Title           : PASSporT SHAKEN Extension (SHAKEN)
        Authors         : Chris Wendt
                          Mary Barnes
	Filename        : draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-02.txt
	Pages           : 7
	Date            : 2018-03-19

Abstract:
   This document extends PASSporT, which is a token object that conveys
   cryptographically-signed information about the participants involved
   in communications, to include information defined as part of the
   SHAKEN specification from ATIS (Alliance for Telecommunications
   Industry Solutions) and the SIP Forum IP-NNI Joint Task Force.  These
   extensions provide a level of confidence in the correctness of the
   originating identity for a telephone network that has communications
   coming from both STIR participating originating communications as
   well as communications that does not include STIR information.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-02
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-02

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-02


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Mon Mar 19 10:21:02 2018
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Subject: Re: [stir] I-D Action: draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-02.txt
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Hi All,

I have updated the draft with some fixes based on comments from =
Christer, both editorial and related to ordering comments.

Summary of changes:

- addressing Christer=E2=80=99s comments around order of claims adding a =
brief new section
- clarified the definition of =E2=80=9Ccustomer=E2=80=9D in the PASSporT =
=E2=80=98attest=E2=80=99 claim section 4
- clarified that it is calling party telephone number that is being =
attested to in same section
- removed last sentence in section 7, it=E2=80=99s repetitive and not =
needed.

I figured i would include these changes and update document for =
efficiency, but will review these in meeting on Thursday in either case.

-Chris



> On Mar 19, 2018, at 5:12 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =
directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Secure Telephone Identity Revisited =
WG of the IETF.
>=20
>        Title           : PASSporT SHAKEN Extension (SHAKEN)
>        Authors         : Chris Wendt
>                          Mary Barnes
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-02.txt
> 	Pages           : 7
> 	Date            : 2018-03-19
>=20
> Abstract:
>   This document extends PASSporT, which is a token object that conveys
>   cryptographically-signed information about the participants involved
>   in communications, to include information defined as part of the
>   SHAKEN specification from ATIS (Alliance for Telecommunications
>   Industry Solutions) and the SIP Forum IP-NNI Joint Task Force.  =
These
>   extensions provide a level of confidence in the correctness of the
>   originating identity for a telephone network that has communications
>   coming from both STIR participating originating communications as
>   well as communications that does not include STIR information.
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken/
>=20
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-02
> =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-02
>=20
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-02
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> stir mailing list
> stir@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir


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Subject: Re: [stir] New Version Notification for draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00.txt
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This is covered in Section 5.1 and 5.2. It is the same model used for =
the time zone database. Registration will usually be obvious, like the =
FCC or NTIA registering for the U.S., OFCOM registering for the U.K., =
FICORA registering for Finland, etc. IANA can look up the national =
authorities via the ITU-T document normatively referenced in the text. =
If it is not obvious or cleared up by a phone call, e.g., asking the FCC =
if Neustar or iconectiv is OK for the U.S., that is why the document =
says to take it to the list.

One open question is that since this is something that would probably =
get zero traffic, I defaulted to saying =E2=80=9Cuse the RAI list if =
there=E2=80=99s a dispute.=E2=80=9D Do we need to setup a separate, =
=E2=80=9CNational Numbering Authorities Dispute List=E2=80=9D? That =
would be easy enough if necessary.

> On Mar 6, 2018, at 1:15 AM, Christer Holmberg =
<christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Eric,
>=20
> The IANA policy is Expert Review. What exactly is the ER supposed to =
do in this case?
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Christer
>=20
> Sent from my iPhone
>=20
> On 6 Mar 2018, at 2.56, Eric Burger <eburger@standardstrack.com =
<mailto:eburger@standardstrack.com>> wrote:
>=20
>> I could not stay away either.
>>=20
>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>=20
>>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: New Version Notification for =
draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00.txt
>>> Date: March 5, 2018 at 3:50:09 PM EST
>>> To: "Eric W. Burger" <eburger@standardstrack.com =
<mailto:eburger@standardstrack.com>>, "Eric Burger" =
<eburger@standardstrack.com <mailto:eburger@standardstrack.com>>
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> A new version of I-D, draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00.txt
>>> has been successfully submitted by Eric W. Burger and posted to the
>>> IETF repository.
>>>=20
>>> Name: draft-burger-stir-iana-cert
>>> Revision: 00
>>> Title: Registry for Country-Specific Secure Telephone Identity =
(STIR) Root Certificates
>>> Document date: 2018-03-05
>>> Group: Individual Submission
>>> Pages: 13
>>> URL:            =
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00.txt =
<https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00.txt>
>>> Status:         =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burger-stir-iana-cert/ =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burger-stir-iana-cert/>
>>> Htmlized:       =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00>
>>> Htmlized:       =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00 =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00>
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Abstract:
>>>   This document defines an IANA registry that maps country codes to
>>>   secure telephone identity (STIR) root certificates authorized to
>>>   create signing certificates for telephone numbers under the =
authority
>>>   of a given country.  Some countries allow carriers to block
>>>   unsolicited, automatically generated nuisance calls commonly known =
as
>>>   'robocalls.'  The use of signed STIR tokens in the Session =
Initiation
>>>   Protocol (SIP) may be useful in such scenarios to provide positive
>>>   attestations as to call origin.  Legacy telephone numbering =
resources
>>>   are administrated by national policy.  Unlike the market-driven =
use
>>>   case of Web commerce, some nations may restrict the list of STIR =
root
>>>   certificate authorities acceptable for issuing signing =
certificates
>>>   for STIR tokens that provide attestations for their local legacy
>>>   telephone numbering resources.  The registry described in this
>>>   document enables call recipients in a first country to validate =
that
>>>   signaling it receives from a caller with a telephone number =
claiming
>>>   to be in a second country conforms to the second country's policy =
of
>>>   (1) having a limited list of STIR root certificate authorities (or
>>>   not) and (2) the certificate that produced the signature over the
>>>   signaling is signed by one of those authorized STIR root =
certificate
>>>   authorities.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
>>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org =
<http://tools.ietf.org/>.
>>>=20
>>> The IETF Secretariat
>>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> stir mailing list
>> stir@ietf.org <mailto:stir@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir>


--Apple-Mail=_8A107D96-6710-4EE1-A712-BBB94A8FE951
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">This is covered in Section 5.1 and 5.2. It is the same model =
used for the time zone database. Registration will usually be obvious, =
like the FCC or NTIA registering for the U.S., OFCOM registering for the =
U.K., FICORA registering for Finland, etc. IANA can look up the national =
authorities via the ITU-T document normatively referenced in the text. =
If it is not obvious or cleared up by a phone call, e.g., asking the FCC =
if Neustar or iconectiv is OK for the U.S., that is why the document =
says to take it to the list.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">One open question is that since this is something that would =
probably get zero traffic, I defaulted to saying =E2=80=9Cuse the RAI =
list if there=E2=80=99s a dispute.=E2=80=9D Do we need to setup a =
separate, =E2=80=9CNational Numbering Authorities Dispute List=E2=80=9D? =
That would be easy enough if necessary.<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Mar 6, 2018, at 1:15 AM, Christer Holmberg &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com" =
class=3D"">christer.holmberg@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">

<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii" class=3D"">

<div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">
Hi Eric,
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">The IANA policy is Expert Review. What exactly is the ER =
supposed to do in this case?&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Regards,</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Christer<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
On 6 Mar 2018, at 2.56, Eric Burger &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:eburger@standardstrack.com" =
class=3D"">eburger@standardstrack.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">I could not stay away either.
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Begin forwarded message:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, 'Helvetica Neue', =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
</span></div>
<div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, 'Helvetica Neue', =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">New Version =
Notification for draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00.txt</b><br class=3D"">
</span></div>
<div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, 'Helvetica Neue', =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Date:
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">March 5, 2018 at 3:50:09 PM =
EST<br class=3D"">
</span></div>
<div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, 'Helvetica Neue', =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">"Eric W. Burger" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:eburger@standardstrack.com" =
class=3D"">eburger@standardstrack.com</a>&gt;, "Eric Burger" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:eburger@standardstrack.com" =
class=3D"">eburger@standardstrack.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
</span></div>
<br class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
A new version of I-D, draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00.txt<br class=3D"">
has been successfully submitted by Eric W. Burger and posted to the<br =
class=3D"">
IETF repository.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Name:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"> =
</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre"></span>draft-burger-stir-iana-cert<br =
class=3D"">
Revision:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"> =
</span>00<br class=3D"">
Title:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"> =
</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre"></span>Registry for Country-Specific Secure =
Telephone Identity (STIR) Root Certificates<br class=3D"">
Document date:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"> =
</span>2018-03-05<br class=3D"">
Group:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"> =
</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre"></span>Individual Submission<br class=3D"">
Pages:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"> =
</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre"></span>13<br class=3D"">
URL: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-0=
0.txt" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-burger-stir-iana-cer=
t-00.txt</a><br class=3D"">
Status: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burger-stir-iana-cert/" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burger-stir-iana-cert/</=
a><br class=3D"">
Htmlized: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00</a><=
br class=3D"">
Htmlized: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-=
00" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-burger-stir-iana-ce=
rt-00</a><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Abstract:<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;This document defines an IANA registry that maps country =
codes to<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;secure telephone identity (STIR) root certificates =
authorized to<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;create signing certificates for telephone numbers under the =
authority<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;of a given country. &nbsp;Some countries allow carriers to =
block<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;unsolicited, automatically generated nuisance calls commonly =
known as<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;'robocalls.' &nbsp;The use of signed STIR tokens in the =
Session Initiation<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;Protocol (SIP) may be useful in such scenarios to provide =
positive<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;attestations as to call origin. &nbsp;Legacy telephone =
numbering resources<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;are administrated by national policy. &nbsp;Unlike the =
market-driven use<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;case of Web commerce, some nations may restrict the list of =
STIR root<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;certificate authorities acceptable for issuing signing =
certificates<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;for STIR tokens that provide attestations for their local =
legacy<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;telephone numbering resources. &nbsp;The registry described =
in this<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;document enables call recipients in a first country to =
validate that<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;signaling it receives from a caller with a telephone number =
claiming<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;to be in a second country conforms to the second country's =
policy of<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;(1) having a limited list of STIR root certificate =
authorities (or<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;not) and (2) the certificate that produced the signature =
over the<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;signaling is signed by one of those authorized STIR root =
certificate<br class=3D"">
&nbsp;&nbsp;authorities.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission<br class=3D"">
until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/" class=3D"">
tools.ietf.org</a>.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
The IETF Secretariat<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
class=3D"">
<span class=3D"">stir mailing list</span><br class=3D"">
<span class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">stir@ietf.org</a></span><br class=3D"">
<span class=3D""><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir</a></span><br =
class=3D"">
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>

</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

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From nobody Tue Mar 20 04:23:46 2018
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To: IETF STIR Mail List <stir@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 07:23:43 -0400
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Subject: [stir] STIR Agenda Changes
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Please note the change of start time for the STIR portion for the =
meeting on Thursday morning.

> TIME CHANGE:
> SIPCORE 09:30 =E2=80=93 10:00 on Thursday in Viscount
> STIR 10:30 =E2=80=93 12:00 on Thursday in Viscount

I have added a few minutes to four of the presentations.  See
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/materials/agenda-101-stir-02 =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/materials/agenda-101-stir-02>

Russ=

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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Please note the change of start time for the STIR portion for =
the meeting on Thursday morning.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">TIME CHANGE:</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">SIPCORE 09:30 =E2=80=93 10:00 on Thursday in =
Viscount</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: =
inline !important;" class=3D"">STIR 10:30 =E2=80=93 12:00 on Thursday in =
Viscount</span></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I have added a few minutes to four of the presentations. =
&nbsp;See</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/materials/agenda-101-stir=
-02" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/materials/agenda-101-s=
tir-02</a></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Russ</div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_BC43C163-AF7E-4D96-BF4C-F27493122541--


From nobody Wed Mar 21 04:41:32 2018
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From: "Peterson, Jon" <jon.peterson@team.neustar>
To: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@jdrosen.net>
CC: "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Re: [stir] New draft draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00
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Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2018 11:41:21 +0000
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Subject: Re: [stir] New draft draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00
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--_000_D6BF109B1F7425jonpetersonneustarbiz_--


From nobody Wed Mar 21 10:52:40 2018
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From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
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Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2018 13:52:32 -0400
To: IETF STIR Mail List <stir@ietf.org>
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Subject: [stir] Note taker and jabber scribe
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We need someone to take notes and and another person to be jabber scribe =
for the STIR session tomorrow morning.  Please volunteer now so that we =
do not need to spend valuable meeting time twisting arms.

Russ


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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/stir/uiVIi_3czNKcyPiPum6k8acrX8s>
Subject: Re: [stir] Comments on draft-stir-callback
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I believe its basically a step towards deployment of the full STIR
solution. If you think about it, STIR requires support in the calling SIP
network, the terminating network, and requires a phone-number based
certificate system they can both connect to. WIth callback, it requires
support in the calling SIP network, the terminating network. But thats it -
no new certificate authorities required. Since it requires one less
dependency - and a significant one at that - it would allow quicker
deployment.

To your question on "why INVITE"? yes its a hack. Its based on the
hypothesis that - given the large number of proxies, SBCs and other gunk
that sit in the network, the odds that anything but an INVITE make it
through, seemed low. Architecturally i think OPTIONS is the best match but
does any SBC pass that?

To your specific questions:

1. most forking happens downstream from the proxy of record for the number;
since this request is handled by that proxy I dont think this is likely.
Can you think of a case were forking would happen upstream from the
proxy/agent which owns the number?

2. SDP is mandated because, per above, seems likely SBCs and other
middle-boxy SIP things will expect to see it in an INVITE.

3.good catch on receiver sending 200 OK. clearly in such cases a BYE would
be generated right away.

Thx,
Jonathan R.



On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 7:53 AM, Christer Holmberg <
christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
>
>
> On a high-level, for a =E2=80=9Ctemporary solution=E2=80=9D, I think this=
 would take quite
> a bit of effort to deploy. Shouldn=E2=80=99t the focus be on getting the
> "certificate systems" up and running?
>
>
>
> Also, how does this relate to activities like SHAKEN?
>
>
>
>
> Anyway, assuming this would be needed, I have some comments on the
> protocol parts.
>
>
>
> First, even though I do consider myself more pragmatic than purist, I
> think usage of INVITE, and the usage of error response codes to return th=
e
> verification result, is a really ugly hack.
>
>
>
> Second, there are also some operational issues with using INVITE:
>
>    1. Good old forking: The callback/verifying INVITE might get forked,
>    and the terminating agent may receive a non-471/472 response.
>    2. SDP: The draft requires SDP in the INVITE, but at the same time
>    says that it=E2=80=99s not used for anything. If so, why is it mandate=
d? Because
>    offerless INVITEs might get rejected? SDP in INVITE might trigger medi=
a
>    resources etc to be reserved.
>    3. Section 7.3 talks about attacks by the agent receiving the
>    callback/verifying INVITE, but it does not cover the case where the ag=
ent
>    would send a 200 OK response =E2=80=93 which would establish a session=
 and could
>    trigger charging. Alternatively, the attacker could remove the option-=
tag
>    and forward the request somewhere. All this without the originally cal=
led
>    party knowing anything. The terminating agent can of course terminate =
such
>    =E2=80=9Ccall" as soon as it gets the 200 OK, but it may already have =
triggered
>    some charging etc.
>
>
> Third, did the authors consider other mechanisms? For example, is there a
> reason e.g., SUB/NOT couldn=E2=80=99t be used for this? It would have non=
e of the
> INVITE issues above (yes, a SUB can also get forked, but the client will
> receive NOT from each remote peer).
>
>
>
> Finally, it seems like the callback request (whatever SIP method is used)
> contains the called party in the From header field. Is there a technical
> reason why that is needed, or is it just for convenience?
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Christer
>
> _______________________________________________
> stir mailing list
> stir@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir
>
>


--=20
Jonathan Rosenberg, Ph.D.
jdrosen@jdrosen.net
http://www.jdrosen.net

--001a113d2bd8b43fd80567f1669b
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>I believe its basically=
 a step towards deployment of the full STIR solution. If you think about it=
, STIR requires support in the calling SIP network, the terminating network=
, and requires a phone-number based certificate system they can both connec=
t to. WIth callback, it requires support in the calling SIP network, the te=
rminating network. But thats it - no new certificate authorities required. =
Since it requires one less dependency - and a significant one at that - it =
would allow quicker deployment.<br><br></div>To your question on &quot;why =
INVITE&quot;? yes its a hack. Its based on the hypothesis that - given the =
large number of proxies, SBCs and other gunk that sit in the network, the o=
dds that anything but an INVITE make it through, seemed low. Architecturall=
y i think OPTIONS is the best match but does any SBC pass that?<br><br></di=
v>To your specific questions:<br><br></div>1. most forking happens downstre=
am from the proxy of record for the number; since this request is handled b=
y that proxy I dont think this is likely. Can you think of a case were fork=
ing would happen upstream from the proxy/agent which owns the number?<br><b=
r></div>2. SDP is mandated because, per above, seems likely SBCs and other =
middle-boxy SIP things will expect to see it in an INVITE.<br><br></div>3.g=
ood catch on receiver sending 200 OK. clearly in such cases a BYE would be =
generated right away.<br><br></div>Thx,<br></div>Jonathan R.<br><div><div><=
div><div><div><div><br><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at=
 7:53 AM, Christer Holmberg <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christe=
r.holmberg@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">christer.holmberg@ericsson.com</=
a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">







<div link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" lang=
=3D"EN-GB">
<div class=3D"m_-4461159095955527534WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif;font-size:14px">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:black">Hi,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14p=
x">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14p=
x">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">On a high-level, for a =E2=80=9Ctempora=
ry solution=E2=80=9D, I think this would take quite a bit of effort to depl=
oy. Shouldn=E2=80=99t the focus
 be on getting the &quot;certificate systems&quot; up and running?=C2=A0<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14p=
x">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14p=
x">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Also, how does this relate to activitie=
s like SHAKEN?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14p=
x">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u><br>
<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>Anyway, assuming this would be n=
eeded, I have some comments on the protocol parts.<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14p=
x">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">First, even though I do consider myself=
 more pragmatic than purist, I think usage of INVITE, and the usage of erro=
r response
 codes to return the verification result, is a really ugly hack.<u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14p=
x">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14p=
x">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Second, there are also some operational=
 issues with using INVITE:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<ol start=3D"1" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:14px" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:black">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"=
>Good old forking: The callback/verifying INVITE might get forked, and the =
terminating agent may receive a non-471/472 response.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></=
span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:black">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"=
>SDP: The draft requires SDP in the INVITE, but at the same time says that =
it=E2=80=99s not used for anything. If so, why is it mandated? Because offe=
rless INVITEs
 might get rejected? SDP in INVITE might trigger media resources etc to be =
reserved.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"c=
olor:black">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"=
>Section 7.3 talks about attacks by the agent receiving the callback/verify=
ing INVITE, but it does not cover the case where the agent would send a 200=
 OK
 response =E2=80=93 which would establish a session and could trigger charg=
ing. Alternatively, the attacker could remove the option-tag and forward th=
e request somewhere. All this without the originally called party knowing a=
nything. The terminating agent can of course
 terminate such =E2=80=9Ccall&quot; as soon as it gets the 200 OK, but it m=
ay already have triggered some charging etc.</span></li></ol>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif;font-size:14px">
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:black"><br>
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Calibri,sans-serif">Third, =
did the authors consider other mechanisms? For example</font><span style=3D=
"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:10.5pt">, is the=
re a reason e.g., SUB/NOT couldn=E2=80=99t
 be used for this? It would have none of the INVITE issues above (yes, a SU=
B can also get forked, but the client will receive NOT from each remote pee=
r).</span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14p=
x">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14p=
x">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Calibri,sans-serif">Finally=
, it seems like the callback request (whatever SIP method is used) contains=
 the called party in the From header field. Is there a technical reason why=
 that is needed, or is it just for convenience?=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></font><=
/p>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14p=
x">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14p=
x">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Thanks!<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14p=
x">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14p=
x">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Regards,<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font co=
lor=3D"#888888"><u></u><u></u></font></span></span></p><span class=3D"HOEnZ=
b"><font color=3D"#888888">
</font></span></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14p=
x">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14p=
x">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">Christer<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</font></span></div>
</div>

<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
stir mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org">stir@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/stir</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail=
_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr">Jonathan Ro=
senberg, Ph.D.<br><a href=3D"mailto:jdrosen@jdrosen.net" target=3D"_blank">=
jdrosen@jdrosen.net</a><br><a href=3D"http://www.jdrosen.net" target=3D"_bl=
ank">http://www.jdrosen.net</a></div></div>
</div>

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Subject: [stir] Thoughts on SIPCOIN
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Would it not be easier for the national authorities to assess a =
$0.20/call tax? Kills the robocallers (per the draft), raises needed tax =
revenue, and (uh oh) annoys the vast number of regular citizens.

I would offer the draft explains why voice call screening (most recently =
embodied by GoogleVoice, NoMoRobo, etc.) have 'solved' the problem. =
Identical economic approach for far less money.

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From: "Asveren, Tolga" <tasveren@rbbn.com>
To: "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>, "jon.peterson@neustar.biz" <jon.peterson@neustar.biz>
Thread-Topic: RFC8224 / Use of a=fingerprint
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/stir/lahVLqbKNJvVnUfRDv9ZLxymn9U>
Subject: [stir] RFC8224 / Use of a=fingerprint
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A few doubts regarding use of a=3Dfingerprint for RFC8224:

4.1.  PASSporT Construction
...

   o  Fourth, if the request contains a Session Description Protocol
      (SDP) message body and if that SDP contains one or more
      "a=3Dfingerprint" attributes, then the JSON key "mky" MUST appear
      with the algorithm(s) and value(s) of the fingerprint attributes
      (if they differ), following the format given in [RFC8225],
      Section 5.2.2.


12.1.  Protected Request Fields
...
  When signing a request that contains a fingerprint of keying material
   in SDP for DTLS-SRTP [RFC5763], this mechanism always provides a
   signature over that fingerprint.  This signature prevents certain
   classes of impersonation attacks in which an attacker forwards or
   cut-and-pastes a legitimate request.  Although the target of the
   attack may accept the request, the attacker will be unable to
   exchange media with the target, as they will not possess a key
   corresponding to the fingerprint.  For example, there are some
   baiting attacks, launched with the REFER method or through social
   engineering, where the attacker receives a request from the target
   and reoriginates it to a third party.  These might not be prevented
   by only a signature over the From, To, and Date, but they could be
   prevented by securing a fingerprint for DTLS-SRTP.  While this is a
   different form of impersonation than is commonly used for
   robocalling, ultimately there is little purpose in establishing the
   identity of the user that originated a SIP request if this assurance
   is not coupled with a comparable assurance over the contents of the
   subsequent media communication.  This signature also reduces the
   potential for active eavesdropping attacks against the SIP media.  In
   environments where DTLS-SRTP is unsupported, however, no field is
   signed and no protections are provided.

i- (with lawyer hat on)
Which one of these statements prevails? I assume it is the former as it is =
using normative language as "MUST" therefore "a=3Dfingerprint" must be used=
 when it is present.

ii- (with technical hat on)
Wouldn't the attack vector mentioned in 12.1 be applicable for connection o=
riented media, e.g. a=3Dfingerprint in SDP is used while establishing a MSR=
P session (and possibly for other cases) as well?

Thanks,
Tolga


From nobody Thu Mar 22 05:22:56 2018
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Subject: [stir] Notification about IPR on SIPCoin
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JDR and I are aware of IPR on the draft-rosenberg-stir-sipcoin-00 draft. =
We are in the process of getting the proper disclosure done. We were =
sort of surprised this had not already happens but will make it happen =
ASAP.=20



From nobody Thu Mar 22 09:40:42 2018
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Subject: [stir] Notes from lunch meeting around reducing spam
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Huge thanks to Mat Miller for taking notes.=20


SIPCOIN/CALLBACK Side Meeting

* Hilton Meeting Rooms 1-4
* 2018-03-22 T 12:15:00

 We had 16 people.=20

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D SIPCOIN =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
DISCLOSURES

* There is IPR on SIPCoin draft, will be posted
* other prior art (hashcash, for email then phone)
  - The compute time is too long for typical use


OVERVIEW

* mint a coin ahead of time
* burn a coin at use
* posted to a CA for verification by signing block
* merkle tree to track history efficiently


IETF responsible for determining value
- WG? document?
- robocallers packing the WG?
- not possible/feasible for such an org

COMPUTE

* bitcoin is competitive mining
* assumption is robocalls will use most optimal equip (ASICs)
* less compute --> less coins
* going with "unresistant" models that favor ASICs is ok
  - ASICs needed for buy-in
  - (ots ASCIs, cloud service in Iceland, etc)

BREAKING IT

* centralized email spam mitigations <-- more centralized services
  - email spammers: central advertiser contracts with smaller ops, who =
contracts with smaller ops et al .... who operates botnets
  - small players see bits, and money filters down

ALTERNATIVES

The idea is make the problem an economics one
* SIPCoin is one
* donations to LE or other foundations

rather than community-based, make it regulatory
  - pay penalties if you're not doing STIR
  - big carriers cannot legally force downstream to comply (needs to be =
regulators)

if PASSPOrT goes to edges, then leave it to ends to force compliance =
laws cannot:
* bond on the phone number holder
* who will issue the bond? (financial incentives?)
  - carrier bonding --> deal with legal but incentivized?
  - ends bonding --> not sure

* problem starts to mitigates with verified source (STIR)
  - PSTN is the biggest problem
  - SIP has more leverage

* traceability works for post-facto (forensics), but not real-time
  - may only work for robocalls if high value victim (e.g., Senator)=20

* total solution involves multiple factors (relevance scores)
  - find the knobs to turn the costs up for spammers

CHALLENGES

* cost on acquiring numbers vs impersonation
* cheap/free gateways also complicate (e.g, Skype, Twilio, Tropo, etc)
  - banks of numbers --> spammers mixed into legitimate callers

* phone calling margins are tightening (??)
* all carriers have to offer call blocking services (via FCC)
  - Opt-in, centralized SIP app analyzing
  - works really well
  - e.g., COMCAST -- NoMoRobo
  - carrier cost is very very low (so far)
  - still based on unverified reported numbers (spammers can adapt)
* honeypots and heuristics interesting
  - could be an economic disincentive=20

FOLLOW UPS

* FCC motivated for solutions
* research validation
  - Barbara van Schewick
  - Moz Foundation for more contacts

* Mark and Jon to help continue it
* how to bootstrap?

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D CALLBACK =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

OVERVIEW
* callee calls back the caller (no dial)
  - verify the callers really made the call

* each agent builds up cache of certs found

QUESTIONS

ASSUMPTION

* validation on cert (by accepted CA), not on the identity per-se

CHALLENGES

* if the middle is not SIP (e.g., SS7)
  - OOB is solving this (designed for smart end-points)
  - might also trickle into SHAKEN
  - OOB still assumes 8226 cert

* More work on the gateways (SIP terminations)
  - put something in front-end to do this
  - also not yet doing STIR (?)
  - out-of-band made for this issue

* deployment ()?
  - STIR is a set of tools
  - work in ACME to define proofs et al (for PASSPOrT)
  - to start, agreement on what the CAs are
  - this will get shaken out over the next year or so
 =20
FOLLOW UPS

* look for a distributed technique to generate certs that are combined =
over the top?


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Subject: [stir] Last Call: <draft-ietf-stir-rph-03.txt> (PASSporT Extension for Resource-Priority Authorization) to Proposed Standard
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The IESG has received a request from the Secure Telephone Identity Revisited
WG (stir) to consider the following document: - 'PASSporT Extension for
Resource-Priority Authorization'
  <draft-ietf-stir-rph-03.txt> as Proposed Standard

The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final
comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2018-04-06. Exceptionally, comments may be
sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of
the Subject line to allow automated sorting.

Abstract


   This document extends the Secure Telephone Identity Revisited (STIR)
   Personal Assertion Token (PASSporT) specification defined in
   [I-D.ietf-stir-passport] to allow the inclusion of cryptographically
   signed assertions of authorization for the values populated in the
   Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) 'Resource-Priority' header field,
   which is used for communications resource prioritization.




The file can be obtained via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-stir-rph/

IESG discussion can be tracked via
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-stir-rph/ballot/


No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D.





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Subject: Re: [stir] RFC8224 / Use of a=fingerprint
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MSRP is tcp/tls so doesn=E2=80=99t apply to intended the use of =
a=3Dfingerprint/mky

> On Mar 22, 2018, at 8:14 AM, Asveren, Tolga <tasveren@rbbn.com> wrote:
>=20
> A few doubts regarding use of a=3Dfingerprint for RFC8224:
>=20
> 4.1.  PASSporT Construction
> ....
>=20
>   o  Fourth, if the request contains a Session Description Protocol
>      (SDP) message body and if that SDP contains one or more
>      "a=3Dfingerprint" attributes, then the JSON key "mky" MUST appear
>      with the algorithm(s) and value(s) of the fingerprint attributes
>      (if they differ), following the format given in [RFC8225],
>      Section 5.2.2.
>=20
>=20
> 12.1.  Protected Request Fields
> ....
>  When signing a request that contains a fingerprint of keying material
>   in SDP for DTLS-SRTP [RFC5763], this mechanism always provides a
>   signature over that fingerprint.  This signature prevents certain
>   classes of impersonation attacks in which an attacker forwards or
>   cut-and-pastes a legitimate request.  Although the target of the
>   attack may accept the request, the attacker will be unable to
>   exchange media with the target, as they will not possess a key
>   corresponding to the fingerprint.  For example, there are some
>   baiting attacks, launched with the REFER method or through social
>   engineering, where the attacker receives a request from the target
>   and reoriginates it to a third party.  These might not be prevented
>   by only a signature over the From, To, and Date, but they could be
>   prevented by securing a fingerprint for DTLS-SRTP.  While this is a
>   different form of impersonation than is commonly used for
>   robocalling, ultimately there is little purpose in establishing the
>   identity of the user that originated a SIP request if this assurance
>   is not coupled with a comparable assurance over the contents of the
>   subsequent media communication.  This signature also reduces the
>   potential for active eavesdropping attacks against the SIP media.  =
In
>   environments where DTLS-SRTP is unsupported, however, no field is
>   signed and no protections are provided.
>=20
> i- (with lawyer hat on)
> Which one of these statements prevails? I assume it is the former as =
it is using normative language as "MUST" therefore "a=3Dfingerprint" =
must be used when it is present.
>=20
> ii- (with technical hat on)
> Wouldn't the attack vector mentioned in 12.1 be applicable for =
connection oriented media, e.g. a=3Dfingerprint in SDP is used while =
establishing a MSRP session (and possibly for other cases) as well?
>=20
> Thanks,
> Tolga
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> stir mailing list
> stir@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir


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From: "Asveren, Tolga" <tasveren@rbbn.com>
To: Chris Wendt <chris-ietf@chriswendt.net>
CC: "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>, "jon.peterson@neustar.biz" <jon.peterson@neustar.biz>
Thread-Topic: [stir] RFC8224 / Use of a=fingerprint
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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>, "stir-chairs@ietf.org" <stir-chairs@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: IETF#101: STIR minutes (Christer)
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Subject: [stir] IETF#101: STIR minutes (Christer)
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--_000_D6DEA8E92D164christerholmbergericssoncom_
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Hi,

Below are my minutes from the IETF#101 STIR session.

Note that there is one OUTCOME with =93????=94, regarding whether we should=
 allow Identity in 3xx responses, because I missed what was decided. Please=
 fill in :)

Regards,

Christer

--------


Topic: PASSporT Extension for Resource-Priority Authorization
Presenter: Martin Dolly
Draft: draft-ietf-stir-rph-03

Status update.

An issue whether ppt values should be quoted or not. Both ways are used, an=
d we should agree on a common way. See 'PASSporT Extension for Divert' minu=
tes.

NEXT STEP: Submit new version of draft.

---

Topic: PASSporT Extension for SHAKEN
Presenter: Chris Wendt
Draft: draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-01

Status update.

Indicated that some minor changes are still to be done, but otherwise the d=
raft is ready to be moved forwarded. Nobody objected to moving the draft fo=
rward.

NEXT STEP: Submit new version of draft.

---

Topic: PASSporT Extension for Divert
Presenter: Jon Peterson
Draft: draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-02

ISSUE: It was suggested to allow Identity in 3xx responses.
OUTCOME: ????

ISSUE: It was discussed on whether we should deprecate the usage of nested =
claims for the in-band solution.
It was indicated that the total size of an INVITE request is not a problem =
(the size will be large even without Identity header fields), but a large s=
ize of a single header field can cause problems.
It was indicated that we should use the same mechanism for in-band and out-=
of-band (nesting is needed for out-of-band).
It was indicated that, if nesting is used, it needs to be clarified how nes=
ting is done when there are multiple incoming Identity header fields, if e.=
g., all of them are to be nested.
OUTCOME: Nesting will stay.

ISSUE: It was discussed whether we should define the order of Identity head=
er fields in a SIP message, when multiple header fields are included.
OUTCOME: No need to define order of Identity header fields.

ISSUE: It was discussed whether we should define the order of claims within=
 a PASSporT, as required by RFC 8225.
OUTCOME: No need to define anything additional, as RFC 8225 already defines=
 how to order the claims as part of the serialisation.

ISSUE: Should we make 'opt' independent of 'div', so nesting can be used wi=
th other PASSporT extensions?
OUTCOME: Will allow 'opt' with other extensions, if needed in future.

ISSUE: Should ppt=3D values be quoted or not?
OUTCOME: Keep quoting mandatory.

It was indicated that more reviewers of the draft are needed.

NEXT STEP: Submit new version of the draft. WGLC once the next version of t=
he draft has been submitted.

---

Topic: Out-Of-Band (OOB)
Presenter: Jon P
Draft: draft-ietf-stir-oob-02

Presentation of changes:

- More generic guidance for validating PASSportTS against calls without SIP=
.

- Mocked up a REST interface for a CPS. Initial work, more work is needed.

It was indicated that there a need to specify at least one CPS discovery me=
chanism (while realising that service discovery in general is a complex and=
 much-studied topic).

NEXT STEP: Work will continue.

---

Topic: Registry for Country-Specific STIR Root Certificates
Presenter: Eric B (remote)
Draft: draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00

There was much concern about the suggestion. It would come with a big liabi=
lity and huge responsibility on IANA. It was also unclear what the Expert R=
eviewer is expected to do.

It was indicated that, if such registry is to be created, it should be done=
 e.g., by ITU-T. While to problem might be clear, it is not the within the =
expertise of IETF or IANA.

It was indicated that, even if a registry exist, people will not rely on th=
e information and will anyway do vetting.

NEXT STEP: No decision.

---

Topic: Connected Identity for STIR
Presenter: Jon P
Draft: draft-peterson-stir-rfc4916-update-00

"STIR backwards". Send an UPDATE request in the backwards direction while t=
he call is being established.

NEXT STEP: No decision (discussions will continue).

---

Topic: Callback
Presenter: Jonathan R
Draft: draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00

It was indicated that the mechanism should be seen as a complement to RFC 8=
226.

It was indicated that the callback INVITE will often reach a PSTN gateway t=
hat do not support the Require header field value, which would trigger a ca=
ll establishment in the PSTN network.

It was indicated that perhaps OOB could be used for this.

NEXT STEP: No decision.

---

Topic: SIPcoin
Presenter: Jonathan R
Draft: draft-rosenberg-stir-sipcoin-00

Short presentation of the mechanism.

It was clarified the a blockchain is not needed: an entity will only do wor=
k before the call, and then show proof of the work when establishing a call=
.

Interested parties were invited to a lunch meeting, where further discussio=
ns could take place.

NEXT STEP: No decision.





--_000_D6DEA8E92D164christerholmbergericssoncom_
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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252">
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif;">
<div>Hi,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Below are my minutes from the IETF#101 STIR session.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Note that there is one OUTCOME with =93????=94, regarding whether we s=
hould allow Identity in 3xx responses, because I missed what was decided. P=
lease fill in :)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Christer</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>--------</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><b>Topic: PASSporT Extension for Resource-Priority Authorization</b></=
div>
<div><b>Presenter: Martin Dolly</b></div>
<div><b>Draft: draft-ietf-stir-rph-03</b></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Status update.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>An issue whether ppt values should be quoted or not. Both ways are use=
d, and we should agree on a common way. See 'PASSporT Extension for Divert'=
 minutes.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>NEXT STEP: Submit new version of draft.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>---</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><b>Topic: PASSporT Extension for SHAKEN</b></div>
<div><b>Presenter: Chris Wendt</b></div>
<div><b>Draft: draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-01</b></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Status update.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Indicated that some minor changes are still to be done, but otherwise =
the draft is ready to be moved forwarded. Nobody objected to moving the dra=
ft forward.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>NEXT STEP: Submit new version of draft.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>---</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><b>Topic: PASSporT Extension for Divert</b></div>
<div><b>Presenter: Jon Peterson</b></div>
<div><b>Draft: draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-02</b></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>ISSUE: It was suggested to allow Identity in 3xx responses.</div>
<div>OUTCOME: ????</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>ISSUE: It was discussed on whether we should deprecate the usage of ne=
sted claims for the in-band solution.&nbsp;</div>
<div>
<div>It was indicated that the total size of an INVITE request is not a pro=
blem (the size will be large even without Identity header fields), but a la=
rge size of a single header field can cause problems.</div>
</div>
<div>It was indicated that we should use the same mechanism for in-band and=
 out-of-band (nesting is needed for out-of-band).</div>
<div>It was indicated that, if nesting is used, it needs to be clarified ho=
w nesting is done when there are multiple incoming Identity header fields, =
if e.g., all of them are to be nested.</div>
<div>OUTCOME: Nesting will stay.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>ISSUE: It was discussed whether we should define the order of Identity=
 header fields in a SIP message, when multiple header fields are included.<=
/div>
<div>OUTCOME: No need to define order of Identity header fields.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>ISSUE: It was discussed whether we should define the order of claims w=
ithin a PASSporT, as required by RFC 8225.</div>
<div>OUTCOME: No need to define anything additional, as RFC 8225 already de=
fines how to order the claims as part of the serialisation.</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>ISSUE: Should we make 'opt' independent of 'div', so nesting can be us=
ed with other PASSporT extensions?&nbsp;</div>
<div>OUTCOME: Will allow 'opt' with other extensions, if needed in future.<=
/div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>ISSUE: Should ppt=3D values be quoted or not?</div>
<div>OUTCOME: Keep quoting mandatory.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It was indicated that more reviewers of the draft are needed.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>NEXT STEP: Submit new version of the draft. WGLC once the next version=
 of the draft has been submitted.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>---</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><b>Topic: Out-Of-Band (OOB)</b></div>
<div><b>Presenter: Jon P</b></div>
<div><b>Draft: draft-ietf-stir-oob-02</b></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Presentation of changes:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>- More generic guidance for validating PASSportTS against calls withou=
t SIP.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>- Mocked up a REST interface for a CPS. Initial work, more work is nee=
ded.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It was indicated that there a need to specify at least one CPS discove=
ry mechanism (while realising that service discovery in general is a comple=
x and much-studied topic).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>NEXT STEP: Work will continue.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>---</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><b>Topic: Registry for Country-Specific STIR Root Certificates</b></di=
v>
<div><b>Presenter: Eric B (remote)</b></div>
<div><b>Draft: draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00</b></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There was much concern about the suggestion. It would come with a big =
liability and huge responsibility on IANA. It was also unclear what the Exp=
ert Reviewer is expected to do.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It was indicated that, if such registry is to be created, it should be=
 done e.g., by ITU-T. While to problem might be clear, it is not the within=
 the expertise of IETF or IANA.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It was indicated that, even if a registry exist, people will not rely =
on the information and will anyway do vetting.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>NEXT STEP: No decision.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>---</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><b>Topic: Connected Identity for STIR</b></div>
<div><b>Presenter: Jon P</b></div>
<div><b>Draft: draft-peterson-stir-rfc4916-update-00</b></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&quot;STIR backwards&quot;. Send an UPDATE request in the backwards di=
rection while the call is being established.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>NEXT STEP: No decision (discussions will continue).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>---</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><b>Topic: Callback</b></div>
<div><b>Presenter: Jonathan R</b></div>
<div><b>Draft: draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00</b></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It was indicated that the mechanism should be seen as a complement to =
RFC 8226.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It was indicated that the callback INVITE will often reach a PSTN gate=
way that do not support the Require header field value, which would trigger=
 a call establishment in the PSTN network.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It was indicated that perhaps OOB could be used for this.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>NEXT STEP: No decision.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>---</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div><b>Topic: SIPcoin</b></div>
<div><b>Presenter: Jonathan R</b></div>
<div><b>Draft:&nbsp;draft-rosenberg-stir-sipcoin-00</b></div>
</div>
<div><b><br>
</b></div>
<div>Short presentation of the mechanism.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It was clarified the a blockchain is not needed: an entity will only d=
o work before the call, and then show proof of the work when establishing a=
 call.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Interested parties were invited to a lunch meeting, where further disc=
ussions could take place.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>NEXT STEP: No decision.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_D6DEA8E92D164christerholmbergericssoncom_--


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Subject: Re: [stir] RFC8224 / Use of a=fingerprint
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	charset=utf-8

I stand corrected.

Thanks for pointing that out.  It references RFC4474 in that section =
which RFC8224 replaces, but seems to be to be fairly compatible with the =
intent of support of fingerprint in RFC8224/8225, although procedures =
are different of course.


> On Mar 25, 2018, at 11:52 PM, Asveren, Tolga <tasveren@rbbn.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Could you elaborate more why it is not applicable? Use of =
a=3Dfingerprint for MSRP is possible per RFCRFC4975:
> =20
> 14.4.  Using TLS in Peer-to-Peer Mode
> =20
>    TLS can be used with a self-signed certificate as long as there is =
a
>    mechanism for both sides to ascertain that the other side used the
>    correct certificate.  When used with SDP and SIP, the correct
>    certificate can be verified by passing a fingerprint of the
>    certificate in the SDP and ensuring that the SDP has suitable
>    integrity protection.  When SIP is used to transport the SDP, the
>    integrity can be provided by the SIP Identity mechanism [17].  The
>    rest of this section describes the details of this approach.
> =20
> Thanks,
> Tolga
> =20
> From: Chris Wendt <chris-ietf@chriswendt.net =
<mailto:chris-ietf@chriswendt.net>>=20
> Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2018 10:26 PM
> To: Asveren, Tolga <tasveren@rbbn.com <mailto:tasveren@rbbn.com>>
> Cc: stir@ietf.org <mailto:stir@ietf.org>; jon.peterson@neustar.biz =
<mailto:jon.peterson@neustar.biz>
> Subject: Re: [stir] RFC8224 / Use of a=3Dfingerprint
> =20
> NOTICE: This email was received from an EXTERNAL sender
>=20
> MSRP is tcp/tls so doesn=E2=80=99t apply to intended the use of =
a=3Dfingerprint/mky
>=20
> > On Mar 22, 2018, at 8:14 AM, Asveren, Tolga <tasveren@rbbn.com =
<mailto:tasveren@rbbn.com>> wrote:
> >=20
> > A few doubts regarding use of a=3Dfingerprint for RFC8224:
> >=20
> > 4.1. PASSporT Construction
> > ....
> >=20
> > o Fourth, if the request contains a Session Description Protocol
> > (SDP) message body and if that SDP contains one or more
> > "a=3Dfingerprint" attributes, then the JSON key "mky" MUST appear
> > with the algorithm(s) and value(s) of the fingerprint attributes
> > (if they differ), following the format given in [RFC8225],
> > Section 5.2.2.
> >=20
> >=20
> > 12.1. Protected Request Fields
> > ....
> > When signing a request that contains a fingerprint of keying =
material
> > in SDP for DTLS-SRTP [RFC5763], this mechanism always provides a
> > signature over that fingerprint. This signature prevents certain
> > classes of impersonation attacks in which an attacker forwards or
> > cut-and-pastes a legitimate request. Although the target of the
> > attack may accept the request, the attacker will be unable to
> > exchange media with the target, as they will not possess a key
> > corresponding to the fingerprint. For example, there are some
> > baiting attacks, launched with the REFER method or through social
> > engineering, where the attacker receives a request from the target
> > and reoriginates it to a third party. These might not be prevented
> > by only a signature over the From, To, and Date, but they could be
> > prevented by securing a fingerprint for DTLS-SRTP. While this is a
> > different form of impersonation than is commonly used for
> > robocalling, ultimately there is little purpose in establishing the
> > identity of the user that originated a SIP request if this assurance
> > is not coupled with a comparable assurance over the contents of the
> > subsequent media communication. This signature also reduces the
> > potential for active eavesdropping attacks against the SIP media. In
> > environments where DTLS-SRTP is unsupported, however, no field is
> > signed and no protections are provided.
> >=20
> > i- (with lawyer hat on)
> > Which one of these statements prevails? I assume it is the former as =
it is using normative language as "MUST" therefore "a=3Dfingerprint" =
must be used when it is present.
> >=20
> > ii- (with technical hat on)
> > Wouldn't the attack vector mentioned in 12.1 be applicable for =
connection oriented media, e.g. a=3Dfingerprint in SDP is used while =
establishing a MSRP session (and possibly for other cases) as well?
> >=20
> > Thanks,
> > Tolga
> >=20
> > _______________________________________________
> > stir mailing list
> > stir@ietf.org <mailto:stir@ietf.org>
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir>

--Apple-Mail=_03E3987D-28C4-40C9-91BE-0DD9FA86712A
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Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">I stand corrected.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Thanks for pointing that out. &nbsp;It =
references RFC4474 in that section which RFC8224 replaces, but seems to =
be to be fairly compatible with the intent of support of fingerprint in =
RFC8224/8225, although procedures are different of course.<br =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Mar 25, 2018, at 11:52 PM, =
Asveren, Tolga &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tasveren@rbbn.com" =
class=3D"">tasveren@rbbn.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Could you elaborate more why it is not applicable? Use of =
a=3Dfingerprint for MSRP is possible per RFCRFC4975:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">14.4.&nbsp;=
 Using TLS in Peer-to-Peer Mode<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; TLS can be used with a =
self-signed certificate as long as there is a<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; mechanism for both sides to ascertain that the =
other side used the<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; correct certificate.&nbsp; When used with SDP =
and SIP, the correct<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; certificate can be verified by passing a =
fingerprint of the<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; certificate in the SDP and ensuring that the SDP =
has suitable<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; integrity protection.&nbsp; When SIP is used to =
transport the SDP, the<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; integrity can be provided by the SIP Identity =
mechanism [17].&nbsp; The<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; rest of this section describes the details of =
this approach.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Thanks,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Tolga<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"border-style: =
none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; =
padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:</b><span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Chris Wendt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris-ietf@chriswendt.net" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">chris-ietf@chriswendt.net</a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Sunday, March 25, 2018 =
10:26 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Asveren, Tolga &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:tasveren@rbbn.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">tasveren@rbbn.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">stir@ietf.org</a>;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:jon.peterson@neustar.biz" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">jon.peterson@neustar.biz</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [stir] RFC8224 / Use of =
a=3Dfingerprint<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-align: =
center;"><hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center" =
class=3D""></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">NOTICE: This email =
was received from an EXTERNAL sender<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-align: =
center;"><hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center" =
class=3D""></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">MSRP =
is tcp/tls so doesn=E2=80=99t apply to intended the use of =
a=3Dfingerprint/mky<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&gt; On Mar 22, 2018, =
at 8:14 AM, Asveren, Tolga &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tasveren@rbbn.com" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">tasveren@rbbn.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">&gt;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">&gt; A few =
doubts regarding use of a=3Dfingerprint for RFC8224:<br =
class=3D"">&gt;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D"">&gt; 4.1. PASSporT Construction<br class=3D"">&gt; ....<br =
class=3D"">&gt;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D"">&gt; o Fourth, if the request contains a Session Description =
Protocol<br class=3D"">&gt; (SDP) message body and if that SDP contains =
one or more<br class=3D"">&gt; "a=3Dfingerprint" attributes, then the =
JSON key "mky" MUST appear<br class=3D"">&gt; with the algorithm(s) and =
value(s) of the fingerprint attributes<br class=3D"">&gt; (if they =
differ), following the format given in [RFC8225],<br class=3D"">&gt; =
Section 5.2.2.<br class=3D"">&gt;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">&gt;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">&gt; 12.1. =
Protected Request Fields<br class=3D"">&gt; ....<br class=3D"">&gt; When =
signing a request that contains a fingerprint of keying material<br =
class=3D"">&gt; in SDP for DTLS-SRTP [RFC5763], this mechanism always =
provides a<br class=3D"">&gt; signature over that fingerprint. This =
signature prevents certain<br class=3D"">&gt; classes of impersonation =
attacks in which an attacker forwards or<br class=3D"">&gt; =
cut-and-pastes a legitimate request. Although the target of the<br =
class=3D"">&gt; attack may accept the request, the attacker will be =
unable to<br class=3D"">&gt; exchange media with the target, as they =
will not possess a key<br class=3D"">&gt; corresponding to the =
fingerprint. For example, there are some<br class=3D"">&gt; baiting =
attacks, launched with the REFER method or through social<br =
class=3D"">&gt; engineering, where the attacker receives a request from =
the target<br class=3D"">&gt; and reoriginates it to a third party. =
These might not be prevented<br class=3D"">&gt; by only a signature over =
the From, To, and Date, but they could be<br class=3D"">&gt; prevented =
by securing a fingerprint for DTLS-SRTP. While this is a<br =
class=3D"">&gt; different form of impersonation than is commonly used =
for<br class=3D"">&gt; robocalling, ultimately there is little purpose =
in establishing the<br class=3D"">&gt; identity of the user that =
originated a SIP request if this assurance<br class=3D"">&gt; is not =
coupled with a comparable assurance over the contents of the<br =
class=3D"">&gt; subsequent media communication. This signature also =
reduces the<br class=3D"">&gt; potential for active eavesdropping =
attacks against the SIP media. In<br class=3D"">&gt; environments where =
DTLS-SRTP is unsupported, however, no field is<br class=3D"">&gt; signed =
and no protections are provided.<br class=3D"">&gt;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">&gt; i- =
(with lawyer hat on)<br class=3D"">&gt; Which one of these statements =
prevails? I assume it is the former as it is using normative language as =
"MUST" therefore "a=3Dfingerprint" must be used when it is present.<br =
class=3D"">&gt;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D"">&gt; ii- (with technical hat on)<br class=3D"">&gt; Wouldn't =
the attack vector mentioned in 12.1 be applicable for connection =
oriented media, e.g. a=3Dfingerprint in SDP is used while establishing a =
MSRP session (and possibly for other cases) as well?<br =
class=3D"">&gt;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D"">&gt; Thanks,<br class=3D"">&gt; Tolga<br class=3D"">&gt;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">&gt; =
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">&gt; stir =
mailing list<br class=3D"">&gt;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">stir@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">&gt;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir</a></div></div></div=
></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_03E3987D-28C4-40C9-91BE-0DD9FA86712A--


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From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
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Subject: [stir] Question from the IETF 101 note taker
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Can anyone answer this question?  If not, we will need to review the =
audio.

Russ


> On Mar 26, 2018, at 6:40 AM, Christer Holmberg =
<christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> Below are my minutes from the IETF#101 STIR session.
>=20
> Note that there is one OUTCOME with =E2=80=9C????=E2=80=9D, regarding =
whether we should allow Identity in 3xx responses, because I missed what =
was decided. Please fill in :)
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Christer
>=20
> --------
>=20
>=20
> Topic: PASSporT Extension for Resource-Priority Authorization
> Presenter: Martin Dolly
> Draft: draft-ietf-stir-rph-03
>=20
> Status update.
>=20
> An issue whether ppt values should be quoted or not. Both ways are =
used, and we should agree on a common way. See 'PASSporT Extension for =
Divert' minutes.
>=20
> NEXT STEP: Submit new version of draft.
>=20
> ---
>=20
> Topic: PASSporT Extension for SHAKEN
> Presenter: Chris Wendt
> Draft: draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-01
>=20
> Status update.=20
>=20
> Indicated that some minor changes are still to be done, but otherwise =
the draft is ready to be moved forwarded. Nobody objected to moving the =
draft forward.
>=20
> NEXT STEP: Submit new version of draft.
>=20
> ---
>=20
> Topic: PASSporT Extension for Divert
> Presenter: Jon Peterson
> Draft: draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-02
>=20
> ISSUE: It was suggested to allow Identity in 3xx responses.
> OUTCOME: ????
>=20
> ISSUE: It was discussed on whether we should deprecate the usage of =
nested claims for the in-band solution.=20
> It was indicated that the total size of an INVITE request is not a =
problem (the size will be large even without Identity header fields), =
but a large size of a single header field can cause problems.
> It was indicated that we should use the same mechanism for in-band and =
out-of-band (nesting is needed for out-of-band).
> It was indicated that, if nesting is used, it needs to be clarified =
how nesting is done when there are multiple incoming Identity header =
fields, if e.g., all of them are to be nested.
> OUTCOME: Nesting will stay.
>=20
> ISSUE: It was discussed whether we should define the order of Identity =
header fields in a SIP message, when multiple header fields are =
included.
> OUTCOME: No need to define order of Identity header fields.
>=20
> ISSUE: It was discussed whether we should define the order of claims =
within a PASSporT, as required by RFC 8225.
> OUTCOME: No need to define anything additional, as RFC 8225 already =
defines how to order the claims as part of the serialisation.
>=20
> ISSUE: Should we make 'opt' independent of 'div', so nesting can be =
used with other PASSporT extensions?=20
> OUTCOME: Will allow 'opt' with other extensions, if needed in future.
>=20
> ISSUE: Should ppt=3D values be quoted or not?
> OUTCOME: Keep quoting mandatory.
>=20
> It was indicated that more reviewers of the draft are needed.
>=20
> NEXT STEP: Submit new version of the draft. WGLC once the next version =
of the draft has been submitted.
>=20
> ---
>=20
> Topic: Out-Of-Band (OOB)
> Presenter: Jon P
> Draft: draft-ietf-stir-oob-02
>=20
> Presentation of changes:
>=20
> - More generic guidance for validating PASSportTS against calls =
without SIP.
>=20
> - Mocked up a REST interface for a CPS. Initial work, more work is =
needed.
>=20
> It was indicated that there a need to specify at least one CPS =
discovery mechanism (while realising that service discovery in general =
is a complex and much-studied topic).
>=20
> NEXT STEP: Work will continue.
>=20
> ---
>=20
> Topic: Registry for Country-Specific STIR Root Certificates
> Presenter: Eric B (remote)
> Draft: draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00
>=20
> There was much concern about the suggestion. It would come with a big =
liability and huge responsibility on IANA. It was also unclear what the =
Expert Reviewer is expected to do.
>=20
> It was indicated that, if such registry is to be created, it should be =
done e.g., by ITU-T. While to problem might be clear, it is not the =
within the expertise of IETF or IANA.
>=20
> It was indicated that, even if a registry exist, people will not rely =
on the information and will anyway do vetting.
>=20
> NEXT STEP: No decision.
>=20
> ---
>=20
> Topic: Connected Identity for STIR
> Presenter: Jon P
> Draft: draft-peterson-stir-rfc4916-update-00
>=20
> "STIR backwards". Send an UPDATE request in the backwards direction =
while the call is being established.
>=20
> NEXT STEP: No decision (discussions will continue).
>=20
> ---
>=20
> Topic: Callback
> Presenter: Jonathan R
> Draft: draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00
>=20
> It was indicated that the mechanism should be seen as a complement to =
RFC 8226.
>=20
> It was indicated that the callback INVITE will often reach a PSTN =
gateway that do not support the Require header field value, which would =
trigger a call establishment in the PSTN network.
>=20
> It was indicated that perhaps OOB could be used for this.=20
>=20
> NEXT STEP: No decision.
>=20
> ---
>=20
> Topic: SIPcoin
> Presenter: Jonathan R
> Draft: draft-rosenberg-stir-sipcoin-00
>=20
> Short presentation of the mechanism.=20
>=20
> It was clarified the a blockchain is not needed: an entity will only =
do work before the call, and then show proof of the work when =
establishing a call.
>=20
> Interested parties were invited to a lunch meeting, where further =
discussions could take place.
>=20
> NEXT STEP: No decision.
>=20
> =20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> stir mailing list
> stir@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir


--Apple-Mail=_8499AEB4-68F2-43C0-AF7E-4ED3D675E720
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Can anyone answer this question? &nbsp;If not, we will need =
to review the audio.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Russ</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Mar 26, 2018, at 6:40 AM, Christer Holmberg &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:christer.holmberg@ericsson.com" =
class=3D"">christer.holmberg@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">

<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3DWindows-1252" class=3D"">

<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; font-size: 14px; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Hi,</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Below are my minutes from the IETF#101 STIR =
session.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Note that there is one OUTCOME with =E2=80=9C????=E2=80=9D=
, regarding whether we should allow Identity in 3xx responses, because I =
missed what was decided. Please fill in :)</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Regards,</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Christer</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">--------</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""><b class=3D"">Topic: PASSporT Extension for =
Resource-Priority Authorization</b></div>
<div class=3D""><b class=3D"">Presenter: Martin Dolly</b></div>
<div class=3D""><b class=3D"">Draft: draft-ietf-stir-rph-03</b></div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Status update.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">An issue whether ppt values should be quoted or not. =
Both ways are used, and we should agree on a common way. See 'PASSporT =
Extension for Divert' minutes.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">NEXT STEP: Submit new version of draft.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">---</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""><b class=3D"">Topic: PASSporT Extension for =
SHAKEN</b></div>
<div class=3D""><b class=3D"">Presenter: Chris Wendt</b></div>
<div class=3D""><b class=3D"">Draft: =
draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken-01</b></div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Status update.&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Indicated that some minor changes are still to be done, =
but otherwise the draft is ready to be moved forwarded. Nobody objected =
to moving the draft forward.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">NEXT STEP: Submit new version of draft.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">---</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""><b class=3D"">Topic: PASSporT Extension for =
Divert</b></div>
<div class=3D""><b class=3D"">Presenter: Jon Peterson</b></div>
<div class=3D""><b class=3D"">Draft: =
draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-02</b></div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">ISSUE: It was suggested to allow Identity in 3xx =
responses.</div>
<div class=3D"">OUTCOME: ????</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">ISSUE: It was discussed on whether we should deprecate =
the usage of nested claims for the in-band solution.&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">It was indicated that the total size of an INVITE =
request is not a problem (the size will be large even without Identity =
header fields), but a large size of a single header field can cause =
problems.</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">It was indicated that we should use the same mechanism =
for in-band and out-of-band (nesting is needed for out-of-band).</div>
<div class=3D"">It was indicated that, if nesting is used, it needs to =
be clarified how nesting is done when there are multiple incoming =
Identity header fields, if e.g., all of them are to be nested.</div>
<div class=3D"">OUTCOME: Nesting will stay.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">ISSUE: It was discussed whether we should define the =
order of Identity header fields in a SIP message, when multiple header =
fields are included.</div>
<div class=3D"">OUTCOME: No need to define order of Identity header =
fields.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">ISSUE: It was discussed whether we should define the =
order of claims within a PASSporT, as required by RFC 8225.</div>
<div class=3D"">OUTCOME: No need to define anything additional, as RFC =
8225 already defines how to order the claims as part of the =
serialisation.</div>
</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">ISSUE: Should we make 'opt' independent of 'div', so =
nesting can be used with other PASSporT extensions?&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"">OUTCOME: Will allow 'opt' with other extensions, if =
needed in future.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">ISSUE: Should ppt=3D values be quoted or not?</div>
<div class=3D"">OUTCOME: Keep quoting mandatory.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">It was indicated that more reviewers of the draft are =
needed.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">NEXT STEP: Submit new version of the draft. WGLC once =
the next version of the draft has been submitted.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">---</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""><b class=3D"">Topic: Out-Of-Band (OOB)</b></div>
<div class=3D""><b class=3D"">Presenter: Jon P</b></div>
<div class=3D""><b class=3D"">Draft: draft-ietf-stir-oob-02</b></div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Presentation of changes:</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">- More generic guidance for validating PASSportTS =
against calls without SIP.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">- Mocked up a REST interface for a CPS. Initial work, =
more work is needed.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">It was indicated that there a need to specify at least =
one CPS discovery mechanism (while realising that service discovery in =
general is a complex and much-studied topic).</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">NEXT STEP: Work will continue.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">---</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""><b class=3D"">Topic: Registry for Country-Specific STIR =
Root Certificates</b></div>
<div class=3D""><b class=3D"">Presenter: Eric B (remote)</b></div>
<div class=3D""><b class=3D"">Draft: =
draft-burger-stir-iana-cert-00</b></div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">There was much concern about the suggestion. It would =
come with a big liability and huge responsibility on IANA. It was also =
unclear what the Expert Reviewer is expected to do.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">It was indicated that, if such registry is to be =
created, it should be done e.g., by ITU-T. While to problem might be =
clear, it is not the within the expertise of IETF or IANA.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">It was indicated that, even if a registry exist, people =
will not rely on the information and will anyway do vetting.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">NEXT STEP: No decision.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">---</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""><b class=3D"">Topic: Connected Identity for =
STIR</b></div>
<div class=3D""><b class=3D"">Presenter: Jon P</b></div>
<div class=3D""><b class=3D"">Draft: =
draft-peterson-stir-rfc4916-update-00</b></div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">"STIR backwards". Send an UPDATE request in the =
backwards direction while the call is being established.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">NEXT STEP: No decision (discussions will =
continue).</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">---</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""><b class=3D"">Topic: Callback</b></div>
<div class=3D""><b class=3D"">Presenter: Jonathan R</b></div>
<div class=3D""><b class=3D"">Draft: =
draft-rosenberg-stir-callback-00</b></div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">It was indicated that the mechanism should be seen as a =
complement to RFC 8226.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">It was indicated that the callback INVITE will often =
reach a PSTN gateway that do not support the Require header field value, =
which would trigger a call establishment in the PSTN network.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">It was indicated that perhaps OOB could be used for =
this.&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">NEXT STEP: No decision.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">---</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><b class=3D"">Topic: SIPcoin</b></div>
<div class=3D""><b class=3D"">Presenter: Jonathan R</b></div>
<div class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Draft:&nbsp;draft-rosenberg-stir-sipcoin-00</b></div>
</div>
<div class=3D""><b class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</b></div>
<div class=3D"">Short presentation of the mechanism.&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">It was clarified the a blockchain is not needed: an =
entity will only do work before the call, and then show proof of the =
work when establishing a call.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Interested parties were invited to a lunch meeting, =
where further discussions could take place.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">NEXT STEP: No decision.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>

_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">stir =
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">stir@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: "Peterson, Jon" <jon.peterson@team.neustar>
To: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>, IETF STIR Mail List <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [stir] Question from the IETF 101 note taker
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--_000_9D06C2A9EC934713B28FA309FF8834AAteamneustar_--


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From: Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
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Subject: [stir] DRAFT STIR Minutes
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https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/materials/minutes-101-stir

Please review and send comments to the list.

Russ


