
From nobody Fri May  4 11:28:30 2018
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Subject: [stir] I-D Action: draft-ietf-stir-rph-05.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Secure Telephone Identity Revisited WG of the IETF.

        Title           : PASSporT Extension for Resource Priority Authorization
        Authors         : Ray P. Singh
                          Martin Dolly
                          Subir Das
                          An Nguyen
	Filename        : draft-ietf-stir-rph-05.txt
	Pages           : 10
	Date            : 2018-05-04

Abstract:
   This document extends the PASSporT (Personal Assertion Token)
   specification defined in [RFC8225] to allow the inclusion of
   cryptographically signed assertions of authorization for the values
   populated in the 'Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) Resource-
   Priority' header field, which is used for communications resource
   prioritization.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-stir-rph/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-stir-rph-05
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-stir-rph-05

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-stir-rph-05


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From: "Asveren, Tolga" <tasveren@rbbn.com>
To: "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/stir/nRkCeQlvk4mp_qC7LLPIzxVoblk>
Subject: [stir] draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info
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I just submitted draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info:

https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info-00.tx=
t


It defines a new claim type for P-Charge-Info.

P-Charge-Info is going through the last steps of becoming a RFC in SIPCore =
WG and I though it would be a good idea to start working on/kicking off dis=
cussions about the corresponding STIR support as it is used to carry sensit=
ive information for billing.

And here is the link for P-Charge-Info draft:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-york-p-charge-info-07


Feedback/ideas/suggestions are appreciated.


Thanks,
Tolga

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I just submitted draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info:<o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draf=
t-asveren-stir-p-charge-info-00.txt" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org=
/internet-drafts/draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info-00.txt</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It defines a new claim type for P-Charge-Info.<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">P-Charge-Info is going through the last steps of bec=
oming a RFC in SIPCore WG and I though it would be a good idea to start wor=
king on/kicking off discussions about the corresponding STIR support as it =
is used to carry sensitive information
 for billing.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">And here is the link for P-Charge-Info draft:<o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-york-p-=
charge-info-07">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-york-p-charge-info-07</a>=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Feedback/ideas/suggestions are appreciated.<o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Tolga<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From nobody Tue May  8 16:22:30 2018
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Subject: [stir] Opsdir last call review of draft-ietf-stir-rph-05
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Reviewer: Tim Chown
Review result: Ready

I have reviewed this document as part of the Operational directorate's ongoing
effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG.  These
comments were written with the intent of improving the operational aspects of
the IETF drafts. Comments that are not addressed in last call may be included
in AD reviews during the IESG review.  Document editors and WG chairs should
treat these comments just like any other last call comments.

PASSporT (RFC8225) defines a method for creating and validating a token that
cryptographically verifies an originating identity or, more generally, a URI or
telephone number representing the originator of personal communications.  This
document extends PASSporT to also support cryptographic signing of the 'SIP
Resource Priority' header field indicating resource prioritisation for the
communication, to mitigate abuse of that field.

The document is quite well written, but includes some repetition of material,
in particular in the introduction, and a few minor grammatical issues.

The document is Ready for publication, with minor nits.

Nits:
* Tidy up or simplify the introduction text, which is unnecessarily verbose.
* Check the text for grammatical issues, especially use of the indefinite
article.



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Date: Tue, 08 May 2018 20:35:23 -0400
From: Richard Shockey <richard@shockey.us>
To: "Asveren, Tolga" <tasveren@rbbn.com>, "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <9D563CDB-86A9-4939-8EC5-6717393C4DBC@shockey.us>
Thread-Topic: [stir] draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/stir/-Zi7Cx82qh07QcQgpvOSiTgbhww>
Subject: Re: [stir] draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info
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=20

Who wants this?=C2=A0=C2=A0 What is the use case or business case for this as a PAS=
SporT?=C2=A0=20

=20

I=E2=80=99m actually curious?

=20

It has certainly taken way to long for Dan York=E2=80=99s draft to float through =
the convoluted IETF process but why?=20

=20

=E2=80=94=20

Richard Shockey

Shockey Consulting LLC

Chairman of the Board SIP Forum

www.shockey.us

www.sipforum.org

richard<at>shockey.us

Skype-Linkedin-Facebook =E2=80=93Twitter  rshockey101

PSTN +1 703-593-2683

=20

From: stir <stir-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Asveren, Tolga" <tasveren@=
rbbn.com>
Date: Tuesday, May 8, 2018 at 2:45 PM
To: "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
Subject: [stir] draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info

=20

I just submitted draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info:

=20

https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info-00.tx=
t

=20

=20

It defines a new claim type for P-Charge-Info.

=20

P-Charge-Info is going through the last steps of becoming a RFC in SIPCore =
WG and I though it would be a good idea to start working on/kicking off disc=
ussions about the corresponding STIR support as it is used to carry sensitiv=
e information for billing.

=20

And here is the link for P-Charge-Info draft:

=20

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-york-p-charge-info-07

=20

=20

Feedback/ideas/suggestions are appreciated.

=20

=20

Thanks,

Tolga

_______________________________________________ stir mailing list stir@ietf=
.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir=20


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<html xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schema=
s-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/20=
04/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=3DC=
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--></style></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div clas=
s=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Wh=
o wants this?=C2=A0=C2=A0 What is the use case or business case for this as a PASSpo=
rT?=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal>I=E2=80=99m actually curious?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>It has certainly taken way to long for Dan York=E2=80=99s=
 draft to float through the convoluted IETF process but why? <o:p></o:p></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-m=
argin-top-alt:1.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:1.0pt;margin-left:0in'><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;color:black'>=E2=80=94&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormalCxSpMiddle style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:1.0pt;margin-right:0i=
n;margin-bottom:1.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-add-space:auto'><span style=3D'font-=
size:8.0pt;color:black'>Richard Shockey<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormalCxSpMiddle style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:1.0pt;margin-right:0in;ma=
rgin-bottom:1.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-add-space:auto'><span style=3D'font-size=
:8.0pt;color:black'>Shockey Consulting LLC<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><=
p class=3DMsoNormalCxSpMiddle style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:1.0pt;margin-right:0in=
;margin-bottom:1.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-add-space:auto'><span style=3D'font-s=
ize:8.0pt;color:black'>Chairman of the Board SIP Forum<o:p></o:p></span></p>=
</div><div><p class=3DMsoNormalCxSpMiddle style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:1.0pt;marg=
in-right:0in;margin-bottom:1.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-add-space:auto'><span s=
tyle=3D'font-size:8.0pt;color:black'>www.shockey.us<o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormalCxSpMiddle style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:1.0pt;margin-ri=
ght:0in;margin-bottom:1.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-add-space:auto'><span style=3D=
'font-size:8.0pt;color:black'>www.sipforum.org<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormalCxSpMiddle style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:1.0pt;margin-right=
:0in;margin-bottom:1.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-add-space:auto'><span style=3D'fo=
nt-size:8.0pt;color:black'>richard&lt;at&gt;shockey.us<o:p></o:p></span></p>=
</div><div><p class=3DMsoNormalCxSpMiddle style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:1.0pt;marg=
in-right:0in;margin-bottom:1.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-add-space:auto'><span s=
tyle=3D'font-size:8.0pt;color:black'>Skype-Linkedin-Facebook =E2=80=93Twitter &nbsp;=
rshockey101<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormalCxSpMiddle sty=
le=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:1.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:1.0pt;margin-lef=
t:0in;mso-add-space:auto'><span style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;color:black'>PSTN +1 =
703-593-2683<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0=
pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:bl=
ack'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>stir &lt;st=
ir-bounces@ietf.org&gt; on behalf of &quot;Asveren, Tolga&quot; &lt;tasveren=
@rbbn.com&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Tuesday, May 8, 2018 at 2:45 PM<br><b>To: </b>=
&quot;stir@ietf.org&quot; &lt;stir@ietf.org&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>[stir] dr=
aft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><a name=3D"_MailOriginalBo=
dy">I just submitted draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info:<o:p></o:p></a></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:=
p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody'=
></span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-asveren-stir-p-c=
harge-info-00.txt" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBo=
dy'>https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info-00=
.txt</span><span style=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody'></span></a><span sty=
le=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal=
><span style=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody'>&nbsp;<o:p></o=
:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody=
'>It defines a new claim type for P-Charge-Info.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody'>P-=
Charge-Info is going through the last steps of becoming a RFC in SIPCore WG =
and I though it would be a good idea to start working on/kicking off discuss=
ions about the corresponding STIR support as it is used to carry sensitive i=
nformation for billing.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D=
'mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><span style=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody'>And here is the link for P-=
Charge-Info draft:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-=
bookmark:_MailOriginalBody'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
span style=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody'></span><a href=3D"https://tools.ie=
tf.org/html/draft-york-p-charge-info-07"><span style=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailOrig=
inalBody'>https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-york-p-charge-info-07</span><spa=
n style=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody'></span></a><span style=3D'mso-bookmar=
k:_MailOriginalBody'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'm=
so-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><span style=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody'>Feedback/idea=
s/suggestions are appreciated.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span=
 style=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody'>Than=
ks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-bookmark:_MailO=
riginalBody'>Tolga<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-=
bookmark:_MailOriginalBody'>_______________________________________________ =
stir mailing list stir@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir <=
/span><o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>

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From: "Asveren, Tolga" <tasveren@rbbn.com>
To: Richard Shockey <richard@shockey.us>, "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [stir] draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info
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From: "Asveren, Tolga" <tasveren@rbbn.com>
To: "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: "iat" value to use during PASSPorT construction
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Subject: [stir] "iat" value to use during PASSPorT construction
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RFC 8224 has the following in Section "4.1 PASSPorT Construction":


      Third, the JSON key "iat" MUST appear.  The authentication service

      SHOULD set the value of "iat" to an encoding of the value of the

      SIP Date header field as a JSON NumericDate (as UNIX time, per

      [RFC7519], Section 2), though an authentication service MAY set

      the value of "iat" to its own current clock time.  If the

      authentication service uses its own clock time, then the use of

      the full form of PASSporT is REQUIRED.  In either case, the

      authentication service MUST NOT generate a PASSporT for a SIP

      request if the Date header is outside of its local policy for

      freshness (sixty seconds is RECOMMENDED).

RFC 8225 has the following in Section "5.1.1 "iat" (Issued At) Claim":


   The JSON claim MUST include the "iat" (Issued At) claim ([RFC7519],

   Section 4.1.6).  As defined, the "iat" claim should be set to the

   date and time of issuance of the JWT and MUST indicate the date and

   time of the origination of the personal communications.  The time

   value should be of the NumericDate format as defined in [RFC7519],

   Section 2.  This is included for securing the token against replay

   and cut-and-paste attacks, as explained further in Section 10

   ("Security Considerations").

i- I see some conflict in RFC8225 text. It is mentioned that "iat" should b=
e set based on issuance of JWT (which would be when PASSPorT is constructed=
). OTOH, it is also stated that it MUST indicate the date and time of the o=
rigination of the personal communication. The former seems to be  the right=
 approach as what we would like to protect against cut-and-paste attacks is=
 the PASSPorT in the context of a particular communication session. Couplin=
g of PASSPorT with the communication session is provided through "orig"/"de=
st". "iat" should be set to the time of generation of PASSPorT IMHO. RFC824=
4 text seems to be O.K. if one accepts this interpretation as it has the no=
tion of "local policy for freshness". The recommended value is on the very =
high end (anything more than a few seconds is too much in practice IMHO) bu=
t it is at least not mandating use of 60s.

ii- Aren't there legitimate cases where a communication session continues f=
or some period of time and then due to change in its nature requires additi=
on of PASSPorT, e.g. first there is an announcement/interaction with an aut=
omated system (which may last several minutes) and then the called-party is=
 contacted during which PASSPorT is added (because, for example, organizati=
onal boundaries are crossed and there is a need to validate calling-party i=
dentity). For such cases there could be a legitimate and major discrepancy =
between Date and "current time". This is another argument in favor of consi=
dering "iat" as corresponding to PASSPorT generation rather than start of c=
ommunication session IMHO. There could eb many other scenarios where simila=
r discrepancy legitimately happens especially if one considers non-base cla=
im types, e.g. "div".

So, the bottom line is I would like to get people's opinion about whether "=
iat" should pertain to the start of communication session or to the creatio=
n of PASSPorT.


Thanks,
Tolga



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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">RFC 8224 has the following in Section &#8220;4.1 PAS=
SPorT Construction&#8221;:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<pre>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Third, the JSON key &quot;iat&quot; MUS=
T appear.&nbsp; The authentication service<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; SHOULD set the value of &quot;iat&quot;=
 to an encoding of the value of the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;SIP Date header field as a JSON Numeric=
Date (as UNIX time, per<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [RFC7519], Section&nbsp;2), though an a=
uthentication service MAY set<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the value of &quot;iat&quot; to its own=
 current clock time.&nbsp; If the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; authentication service uses its own clo=
ck time, then the use of<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the full form of PASSporT is REQUIRED.&=
nbsp; In either case, the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; authentication service MUST NOT generat=
e a PASSporT for a SIP<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; request if the Date header is outside o=
f its local policy for<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; freshness (sixty seconds is RECOMMENDED=
).<o:p></o:p></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">RFC 8225 has the following in Section &#8220;5.1.1 &=
#8220;iat&#8221; (Issued At) Claim&#8221;:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; The JSON claim MUST include the &quot;iat&quot; (Issued A=
t) claim ([RFC7519],<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; Section&nbsp;4.1.6).&nbsp; As defined, the &quot;iat&quot=
; claim should be set to the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; date and time of issuance of the JWT and MUST indicate th=
e date and<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; time of the origination of the personal communications.&n=
bsp; The time<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; value should be of the NumericDate format as defined in [=
RFC7519],<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; Section&nbsp;2.&nbsp; This is included for securing the t=
oken against replay<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; and cut-and-paste attacks, as explained further in Sectio=
n 10<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>&nbsp; &nbsp;(&quot;Security Considerations&quot;).<o:p></o:p></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">i- I see some conflict in RFC8225 text. It is mentio=
ned that &#8220;iat&#8221; should be set based on issuance of JWT (which wo=
uld be when PASSPorT is constructed). OTOH, it is also stated that it MUST =
indicate the date and time of the origination
 of the personal communication. The former seems to be &nbsp;the right appr=
oach as what we would like to protect against cut-and-paste attacks is the =
PASSPorT in the context of a particular communication session. Coupling of =
PASSPorT with the communication session
 is provided through &#8220;orig&#8221;/&#8221;dest&#8221;. &#8220;iat&#822=
1; should be set to the time of generation of PASSPorT IMHO. RFC8244 text s=
eems to be O.K. if one accepts this interpretation as it has the notion of =
&#8220;local policy for freshness&#8221;. The recommended value is on the v=
ery high
 end (anything more than a few seconds is too much in practice IMHO) but it=
 is at least not mandating use of 60s.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">ii- Aren&#8217;t there legitimate cases where a comm=
unication session continues for some period of time and then due to change =
in its nature requires addition of PASSPorT, e.g. first there is an announc=
ement/interaction with an automated system
 (which may last several minutes) and then the called-party is contacted du=
ring which PASSPorT is added (because, for example, organizational boundari=
es are crossed and there is a need to validate calling-party identity). For=
 such cases there could be a legitimate
 and major discrepancy between Date and &#8220;current time&#8221;. This is=
 another argument in favor of considering &#8220;iat&#8221; as correspondin=
g to PASSPorT generation rather than start of communication session IMHO. T=
here could eb many other scenarios where similar discrepancy
 legitimately happens especially if one considers non-base claim types, e.g=
. &#8220;div&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So, the bottom line is I would like to get people&#8=
217;s opinion about whether &#8220;iat&#8221; should pertain to the start o=
f communication session or to the creation of PASSPorT.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Tolga<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
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From: Chris Wendt <chris-ietf@chriswendt.net>
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Date: Mon, 14 May 2018 10:30:52 -0400
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To: "Asveren, Tolga" <tasveren@rbbn.com>
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Subject: Re: [stir] "iat" value to use during PASSPorT construction
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Hi Tolga,

I think the 60sec recommendation is a default, however, i think once we =
get more operational experience to see what the delta offsets of time =
typically are, we will have a better sense of what value to use and =
whether to move to a smaller time window or not.  This should in general =
be considered local policy what you believe is an acceptable time =
window. You may also want to implement secondary TDOS/replay attack =
types of protection to help here as well and not solely depend on =
=E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D freshness within that short time window.

In regards to the other part of your question, 8224 is saying to use the =
PASSporT =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D to correspond to the DATE value of the =
SIP.  The assumption is that the PASSporT is being created at/close to =
the initiation of the INVITE.  I think whether you interpret that as =
taking the DATE and setting it exactly to the =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D or =
if you are generating a PASSporT =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D as a specifically =
8225 compliant function in isolation, either will generally work if you =
are using full form of passport.  =46rom what i=E2=80=99m personally =
aware of, most implementations are following the former vs the latter.

-Chris


> On May 14, 2018, at 5:17 AM, Asveren, Tolga <tasveren@rbbn.com> wrote:
>=20
> RFC 8224 has the following in Section =E2=80=9C4.1 PASSPorT =
Construction=E2=80=9D:
> =20
>       Third, the JSON key "iat" MUST appear.  The authentication =
service
>       SHOULD set the value of "iat" to an encoding of the value of the
>       SIP Date header field as a JSON NumericDate (as UNIX time, per
>       [RFC7519], Section 2), though an authentication service MAY set
>       the value of "iat" to its own current clock time.  If the
>       authentication service uses its own clock time, then the use of
>       the full form of PASSporT is REQUIRED.  In either case, the
>       authentication service MUST NOT generate a PASSporT for a SIP
>       request if the Date header is outside of its local policy for
>       freshness (sixty seconds is RECOMMENDED).
> =20
> RFC 8225 has the following in Section =E2=80=9C5.1.1 =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D=
 (Issued At) Claim=E2=80=9D:
> =20
>    The JSON claim MUST include the "iat" (Issued At) claim ([RFC7519],
>    Section 4.1.6).  As defined, the "iat" claim should be set to the
>    date and time of issuance of the JWT and MUST indicate the date and
>    time of the origination of the personal communications.  The time
>    value should be of the NumericDate format as defined in [RFC7519],
>    Section 2.  This is included for securing the token against replay
>    and cut-and-paste attacks, as explained further in Section 10
>    ("Security Considerations").
> =20
> i- I see some conflict in RFC8225 text. It is mentioned that =E2=80=9Cia=
t=E2=80=9D should be set based on issuance of JWT (which would be when =
PASSPorT is constructed). OTOH, it is also stated that it MUST indicate =
the date and time of the origination of the personal communication. The =
former seems to be  the right approach as what we would like to protect =
against cut-and-paste attacks is the PASSPorT in the context of a =
particular communication session. Coupling of PASSPorT with the =
communication session is provided through =E2=80=9Corig=E2=80=9D/=E2=80=9D=
dest=E2=80=9D. =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D should be set to the time of =
generation of PASSPorT IMHO. RFC8244 text seems to be O.K. if one =
accepts this interpretation as it has the notion of =E2=80=9Clocal =
policy for freshness=E2=80=9D. The recommended value is on the very high =
end (anything more than a few seconds is too much in practice IMHO) but =
it is at least not mandating use of 60s.
> =20
> ii- Aren=E2=80=99t there legitimate cases where a communication =
session continues for some period of time and then due to change in its =
nature requires addition of PASSPorT, e.g. first there is an =
announcement/interaction with an automated system (which may last =
several minutes) and then the called-party is contacted during which =
PASSPorT is added (because, for example, organizational boundaries are =
crossed and there is a need to validate calling-party identity). For =
such cases there could be a legitimate and major discrepancy between =
Date and =E2=80=9Ccurrent time=E2=80=9D. This is another argument in =
favor of considering =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D as corresponding to PASSPorT =
generation rather than start of communication session IMHO. There could =
eb many other scenarios where similar discrepancy legitimately happens =
especially if one considers non-base claim types, e.g.. =E2=80=9Cdiv=E2=80=
=9D.
> =20
> So, the bottom line is I would like to get people=E2=80=99s opinion =
about whether =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D should pertain to the start of =
communication session or to the creation of PASSPorT.
> =20
> =20
> Thanks,
> Tolga
> =20
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> stir mailing list
> stir@ietf.org <mailto:stir@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir>

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hi =
Tolga,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think the =
60sec recommendation is a default, however, i think once we get more =
operational experience to see what the delta offsets of time typically =
are, we will have a better sense of what value to use and whether to =
move to a smaller time window or not. &nbsp;This should in general be =
considered local policy what you believe is an acceptable time window. =
You may also want to implement secondary TDOS/replay attack types of =
protection to help here as well and not solely depend on =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=
=9D freshness within that short time window.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In regards to the other part of your =
question, 8224 is saying to use the PASSporT =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D to =
correspond to the DATE value of the SIP. &nbsp;The assumption is that =
the PASSporT is being created at/close to the initiation of the INVITE. =
&nbsp;I think whether you interpret that as taking the DATE and setting =
it exactly to the =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D or if you are generating a =
PASSporT =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D as a specifically 8225 compliant function =
in isolation, either will generally work if you are using full form of =
passport. &nbsp;=46rom what i=E2=80=99m personally aware of, most =
implementations are following the former vs the latter.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">-Chris</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On May 14, 2018, at 5:17 AM, Asveren, Tolga =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tasveren@rbbn.com" =
class=3D"">tasveren@rbbn.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">RFC 8224 =
has the following in Section =E2=80=9C4.1 PASSPorT Construction=E2=80=9D:<=
o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Third, the JSON key "iat" MUST appear.&nbsp; The =
authentication service<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; SHOULD set the =
value of "iat" to an encoding of the value of the<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;SIP Date header field as a =
JSON NumericDate (as UNIX time, per<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
[RFC7519], Section&nbsp;2), though an authentication service MAY set<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the value of "iat" to its own =
current clock time.&nbsp; If the<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
authentication service uses its own clock time, then the use of<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the full form of PASSporT is =
REQUIRED.&nbsp; In either case, the<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
authentication service MUST NOT generate a PASSporT for a SIP<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; request if the Date header is =
outside of its local policy for<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
freshness (sixty seconds is RECOMMENDED).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">RFC 8225 has the following in Section =
=E2=80=9C5.1.1 =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D (Issued At) Claim=E2=80=9D:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; The JSON claim MUST include the "iat" (Issued =
At) claim ([RFC7519],<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; Section&nbsp;4.1.6).&nbsp; As =
defined, the "iat" claim should be set to the<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; date and time of issuance of the JWT and MUST =
indicate the date and<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; time of the origination of the =
personal communications.&nbsp; The time<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; value should be of the =
NumericDate format as defined in [RFC7519],<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; Section&nbsp;2.&nbsp; This is included for =
securing the token against replay<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; and cut-and-paste =
attacks, as explained further in Section 10<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;("Security Considerations").<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">i- I see some conflict in RFC8225 text. =
It is mentioned that =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D should be set based on =
issuance of JWT (which would be when PASSPorT is constructed). OTOH, it =
is also stated that it MUST indicate the date and time of the =
origination of the personal communication. The former seems to be =
&nbsp;the right approach as what we would like to protect against =
cut-and-paste attacks is the PASSPorT in the context of a particular =
communication session. Coupling of PASSPorT with the communication =
session is provided through =E2=80=9Corig=E2=80=9D/=E2=80=9Ddest=E2=80=9D.=
 =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D should be set to the time of generation of =
PASSPorT IMHO. RFC8244 text seems to be O.K. if one accepts this =
interpretation as it has the notion of =E2=80=9Clocal policy for =
freshness=E2=80=9D. The recommended value is on the very high end =
(anything more than a few seconds is too much in practice IMHO) but it =
is at least not mandating use of 60s.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">ii- Aren=E2=80=99t there legitimate =
cases where a communication session continues for some period of time =
and then due to change in its nature requires addition of PASSPorT, e.g. =
first there is an announcement/interaction with an automated system =
(which may last several minutes) and then the called-party is contacted =
during which PASSPorT is added (because, for example, organizational =
boundaries are crossed and there is a need to validate calling-party =
identity). For such cases there could be a legitimate and major =
discrepancy between Date and =E2=80=9Ccurrent time=E2=80=9D. This is =
another argument in favor of considering =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D as =
corresponding to PASSPorT generation rather than start of communication =
session IMHO. There could eb many other scenarios where similar =
discrepancy legitimately happens especially if one considers non-base =
claim types, e.g.. =E2=80=9Cdiv=E2=80=9D.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">So, the bottom line is I would like to =
get people=E2=80=99s opinion about whether =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D should =
pertain to the start of communication session or to the creation of =
PASSPorT.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Thanks,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Tolga<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
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From nobody Mon May 14 11:34:46 2018
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Subject: [stir] FYI: FCC Chairman Welcomes Call Authentication Recommendations
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I thought this would be of interest to people on this list...

CHAIRMAN PAI WELCOMES CALL AUTHENTICATION RECOMMENDATIONS FROM THE NORTH =
AMERICAN NUMBERING COUNCIL.
Represents Substantial Step Forward Toward Ensuring Calls Can Be =
Authenticated and Verified

https://apps.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-350690A1.pdf


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CC: "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [stir] "iat" value to use during PASSPorT construction
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To: Chris Wendt <chris-ietf@chriswendt.net>
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Thread-Topic: [stir] "iat" value to use during PASSPorT construction
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/stir/yekFPEtj5V1uQslspVVyWz5wDIw>
Subject: Re: [stir] "iat" value to use during PASSPorT construction
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From nobody Thu May 17 15:42:40 2018
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From: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
To: "The IESG" <iesg@ietf.org>
Cc: draft-ietf-stir-rph@ietf.org, Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>, stir-chairs@ietf.org, housley@vigilsec.com, stir@ietf.org
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Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 15:42:33 -0700
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/stir/UfmmhR5hXzGHwsz1tDueA4_jemI>
Subject: [stir] Ben Campbell's Yes on draft-ietf-stir-rph-05: (with COMMENT)
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Ben Campbell has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-stir-rph-05: Yes

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you for addressing my first discussion point and comments. I still have a
concern on the second discuss point:

§7.2:
   o  The verification of the signature MUST include means of verifying
      that the signer is authoritative for the signed content of the
      resource priority namespace in the PASSporT."

The authors explained via email that they expect this to depend on some ATIS
work. I understand that such work is in progress, but has not reached the point
of being citable. I don't want to see this document blocked on that work, so I
cleared my discuss. However, I still think it would be a good idea to add some
scoping text early in the document to the effect that this mechanism is
intended for environments where some means of verifying that the signer is
authoritative is available. (In addition to keeping the normative text in §7.2)



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Subject: Re: [stir] "iat" value to use during PASSPorT construction
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There is a bunch of philosophical ratholes we could go down here, but =
the =E2=80=9Cissuance=E2=80=9D of a JWT i don=E2=80=99t believe is =
strictly meant to correspond to the =E2=80=9Cexact=E2=80=9D time that =
the JWT is constructed.  My understanding is that it is meant to =
represent the time the token is valid in the context of the application =
and the claims you are making for that application.=20
In the context of STIR, the initiation of the INVITE and the =
corresponding signing of that INVITE should occur in a very small time =
delta, whether it happens on the same device or between the SIP UE and a =
network element receiving that INVITE shortly later.  I believe this =
scenario is completely appropriate within the scope of the definition of =
=E2=80=9Cissuance=E2=80=9D time.

> On May 17, 2018, at 3:46 PM, Asveren, Tolga <tasveren@rbbn.com> wrote:
>=20
> To add a bit more color:
> =20
> The following is the most authoritative specification regarding =
=E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D generation in general IMHO:
> =20
> RFC7519 JSON Web Token (JWT)
> =20
> 4.1.6 <>.  "iat" (Issued At) Claim
>=20
> =20
>    The "iat" (issued at) claim identifies the time at which the JWT =
was
>    issued.  This claim can be used to determine the age of the JWT.  =
Its
>    value MUST be a number containing a NumericDate value.  Use of this
>    claim is OPTIONAL.
> =20
> This text clearly states that =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D is for the =
generation time of JWS.
> =20
> =20
> So, I think both RFC8224/8225 need to be updated to prevent any =
ambiguity and be completely consistent with RFC7519.
> =20
> =20
> Thanks,
> Tolga
> =20
> From: Asveren, Tolga=20
> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2018 1:33 PM
> To: Chris Wendt <chris-ietf@chriswendt.net>
> Cc: stir@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [stir] "iat" value to use during PASSPorT construction
> =20
> Ideally specifications should have a firm stand on the scope of =
=E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D IMHO. Ambiguity is something to avoid even if the =
immediately envisioned use cases could function with both =
interpretations (and honestly I even doubt that let alone the impact on =
future extensions/new claim types).=20
> =20
> As I already indicated, what makes sense to me is that it for the =
=E2=80=9CJSW=E2=80=9D, not for the session therefore =E2=80=9Ccurrent =
time=E2=80=9D instead of Date needs to be used.
> =20
> And as a side question: Is there really a practical concern regarding =
full-form being longer than the compact form? Are the extra few hundreds =
of octets really something causing heartburn considering that media =
associated with a session usually would require several magnitudes more?
> =20
> Thanks,
> Tolga
> =20
> From: Chris Wendt <chris-ietf@chriswendt.net =
<mailto:chris-ietf@chriswendt.net>>=20
> Sent: Monday, May 14, 2018 10:31 AM
> To: Asveren, Tolga <tasveren@rbbn.com <mailto:tasveren@rbbn.com>>
> Cc: stir@ietf.org <mailto:stir@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [stir] "iat" value to use during PASSPorT construction
> =20
> NOTICE: This email was received from an EXTERNAL sender
>=20
> Hi Tolga,
> =20
> I think the 60sec recommendation is a default, however, i think once =
we get more operational experience to see what the delta offsets of time =
typically are, we will have a better sense of what value to use and =
whether to move to a smaller time window or not.  This should in general =
be considered local policy what you believe is an acceptable time =
window. You may also want to implement secondary TDOS/replay attack =
types of protection to help here as well and not solely depend on =
=E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D freshness within that short time window.
> =20
> In regards to the other part of your question, 8224 is saying to use =
the PASSporT =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D to correspond to the DATE value of =
the SIP.  The assumption is that the PASSporT is being created at/close =
to the initiation of the INVITE.  I think whether you interpret that as =
taking the DATE and setting it exactly to the =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D or =
if you are generating a PASSporT =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D as a specifically =
8225 compliant function in isolation, either will generally work if you =
are using full form of passport.  =46rom what i=E2=80=99m personally =
aware of, most implementations are following the former vs the latter.
> =20
> -Chris
> =20
> =20
>=20
> On May 14, 2018, at 5:17 AM, Asveren, Tolga <tasveren@rbbn.com =
<mailto:tasveren@rbbn.com>> wrote:
> =20
> RFC 8224 has the following in Section =E2=80=9C4.1 PASSPorT =
Construction=E2=80=9D:
> =20
>       Third, the JSON key "iat" MUST appear.  The authentication =
service
>       SHOULD set the value of "iat" to an encoding of the value of the
>       SIP Date header field as a JSON NumericDate (as UNIX time, per
>       [RFC7519], Section 2), though an authentication service MAY set
>       the value of "iat" to its own current clock time.  If the
>       authentication service uses its own clock time, then the use of
>       the full form of PASSporT is REQUIRED.  In either case, the
>       authentication service MUST NOT generate a PASSporT for a SIP
>       request if the Date header is outside of its local policy for
>       freshness (sixty seconds is RECOMMENDED).
> =20
> RFC 8225 has the following in Section =E2=80=9C5.1.1 =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D=
 (Issued At) Claim=E2=80=9D:
> =20
>    The JSON claim MUST include the "iat" (Issued At) claim ([RFC7519],
>    Section 4.1.6).  As defined, the "iat" claim should be set to the
>    date and time of issuance of the JWT and MUST indicate the date and
>    time of the origination of the personal communications.  The time
>    value should be of the NumericDate format as defined in [RFC7519],
>    Section 2.  This is included for securing the token against replay
>    and cut-and-paste attacks, as explained further in Section 10
>    ("Security Considerations").
> =20
> i- I see some conflict in RFC8225 text. It is mentioned that =E2=80=9Cia=
t=E2=80=9D should be set based on issuance of JWT (which would be when =
PASSPorT is constructed). OTOH, it is also stated that it MUST indicate =
the date and time of the origination of the personal communication. The =
former seems to be  the right approach as what we would like to protect =
against cut-and-paste attacks is the PASSPorT in the context of a =
particular communication session. Coupling of PASSPorT with the =
communication session is provided through =E2=80=9Corig=E2=80=9D/=E2=80=9D=
dest=E2=80=9D. =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D should be set to the time of =
generation of PASSPorT IMHO. RFC8244 text seems to be O.K. if one =
accepts this interpretation as it has the notion of =E2=80=9Clocal =
policy for freshness=E2=80=9D. The recommended value is on the very high =
end (anything more than a few seconds is too much in practice IMHO) but =
it is at least not mandating use of 60s.
> =20
> ii- Aren=E2=80=99t there legitimate cases where a communication =
session continues for some period of time and then due to change in its =
nature requires addition of PASSPorT, e.g. first there is an =
announcement/interaction with an automated system (which may last =
several minutes) and then the called-party is contacted during which =
PASSPorT is added (because, for example, organizational boundaries are =
crossed and there is a need to validate calling-party identity). For =
such cases there could be a legitimate and major discrepancy between =
Date and =E2=80=9Ccurrent time=E2=80=9D. This is another argument in =
favor of considering =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D as corresponding to PASSPorT =
generation rather than start of communication session IMHO. There could =
eb many other scenarios where similar discrepancy legitimately happens =
especially if one considers non-base claim types, e.g.. =E2=80=9Cdiv=E2=80=
=9D.
> =20
> So, the bottom line is I would like to get people=E2=80=99s opinion =
about whether =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D should pertain to the start of =
communication session or to the creation of PASSPorT.
> =20
> =20
> Thanks,
> Tolga
> =20
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> stir mailing list
> stir@ietf.org <mailto:stir@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir>

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">There=
 is a bunch of philosophical ratholes we could go down here, but the =
=E2=80=9Cissuance=E2=80=9D of a JWT i don=E2=80=99t believe is strictly =
meant to correspond to the =E2=80=9Cexact=E2=80=9D time that the JWT is =
constructed. &nbsp;My understanding is that it is meant to represent the =
time the token is valid in the context of the application and the claims =
you are making for that application.&nbsp;<div class=3D"">In the context =
of STIR, the initiation of the INVITE and the corresponding signing of =
that INVITE should occur in a very small time delta, whether it happens =
on the same device or between the SIP UE and a network element receiving =
that INVITE shortly later. &nbsp;I believe this scenario is completely =
appropriate within the scope of the definition of =E2=80=9Cissuance=E2=80=9D=
 time.<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On May 17, 2018, at 3:46 PM, Asveren, Tolga =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tasveren@rbbn.com" =
class=3D"">tasveren@rbbn.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">To add a =
bit more color:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">The following is the most authoritative specification =
regarding =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D generation in general IMHO:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">RFC7519 =
JSON Web Token (JWT)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><h4 style=3D"margin: 3pt =
0in 6pt; text-align: justify; text-indent: 0in; break-after: avoid-page; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-weight: normal;" =
class=3D""><a name=3D"section-4.1.6" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">4.1.6</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">.&nbsp; "iat" (Issued At) =
Claim</span><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></h4><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; The "iat" (issued at) claim identifies the time =
at which the JWT was<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; issued.&nbsp; This claim can be used =
to determine the age of the JWT.&nbsp; Its<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; value MUST be a number =
containing a NumericDate value.&nbsp; Use of this<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; claim is OPTIONAL.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">This text clearly states that =E2=80=9Cia=
t=E2=80=9D is for the generation time of JWS.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">So, I =
think both RFC8224/8225 need to be updated to prevent any ambiguity and =
be completely consistent with RFC7519.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Thanks,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Tolga<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; =
border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; =
border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: =
3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">From:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Asveren, Tolga<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, May 15, 2018 1:33 =
PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Chris Wendt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris-ietf@chriswendt.net" =
class=3D"">chris-ietf@chriswendt.net</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org" class=3D"">stir@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>RE: [stir] "iat" value to =
use during PASSPorT construction<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Ideally specifications should have a firm stand on the scope =
of =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D IMHO. Ambiguity is something to avoid even if =
the immediately envisioned use cases could function with both =
interpretations (and honestly I even doubt that let alone the impact on =
future extensions/new claim types).<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">As I =
already indicated, what makes sense to me is that it for the =E2=80=9CJSW=E2=
=80=9D, not for the session therefore =E2=80=9Ccurrent time=E2=80=9D =
instead of Date needs to be used.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">And as a side question: Is there really =
a practical concern regarding full-form being longer than the compact =
form? Are the extra few hundreds of octets really something causing =
heartburn considering that media associated with a session usually would =
require several magnitudes more?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Thanks,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Tolga<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; =
border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; =
border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: =
3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">From:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Chris Wendt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris-ietf@chriswendt.net" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">chris-ietf@chriswendt.net</a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Monday, May 14, 2018 10:31 =
AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Asveren, Tolga &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:tasveren@rbbn.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">tasveren@rbbn.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">stir@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [stir] "iat" value to =
use during PASSPorT construction<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D"MsoNormal" =
align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-align: center;"><hr size=3D"2" =
width=3D"100%" align=3D"center" class=3D""></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">NOTICE: This email was received from an EXTERNAL sender<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; text-align: center;"><hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" =
align=3D"center" class=3D""></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Hi Tolga,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">I think the 60sec recommendation is a default, however, i =
think once we get more operational experience to see what the delta =
offsets of time typically are, we will have a better sense of what value =
to use and whether to move to a smaller time window or not. &nbsp;This =
should in general be considered local policy what you believe is an =
acceptable time window. You may also want to implement secondary =
TDOS/replay attack types of protection to help here as well and not =
solely depend on =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D freshness within that short time =
window.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">In regards to the other part of your question, 8224 is saying =
to use the PASSporT =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D to correspond to the DATE =
value of the SIP. &nbsp;The assumption is that the PASSporT is being =
created at/close to the initiation of the INVITE. &nbsp;I think whether =
you interpret that as taking the DATE and setting it exactly to the =
=E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D or if you are generating a PASSporT =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=
=9D as a specifically 8225 compliant function in isolation, either will =
generally work if you are using full form of passport. &nbsp;=46rom what =
i=E2=80=99m personally aware of, most implementations are following the =
former vs the latter.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">-Chris<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">On May 14, 2018, at 5:17 AM, Asveren, Tolga &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:tasveren@rbbn.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">tasveren@rbbn.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">RFC 8224 has the following =
in Section =E2=80=9C4.1 PASSPorT Construction=E2=80=9D:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><pre style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Third, the JSON =
key "iat" MUST appear.&nbsp; The authentication service<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; SHOULD set the value of "iat" =
to an encoding of the value of the<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;SIP =
Date header field as a JSON NumericDate (as UNIX time, per<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [RFC7519], Section&nbsp;2), =
though an authentication service MAY set<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the =
value of "iat" to its own current clock time.&nbsp; If the<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; authentication service uses =
its own clock time, then the use of<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the =
full form of PASSporT is REQUIRED.&nbsp; In either case, the<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; authentication service MUST =
NOT generate a PASSporT for a SIP<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
request if the Date header is outside of its local policy for<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; freshness (sixty seconds is =
RECOMMENDED).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">RFC 8225 has the following in Section =E2=80=9C5.1.1 =
=E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D (Issued At) Claim=E2=80=9D:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><pre style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; The JSON claim MUST include the =
"iat" (Issued At) claim ([RFC7519],<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Section&nbsp;4.1.6).&nbsp; As defined, the "iat" claim should be set to =
the<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; date and time of issuance of the JWT and MUST =
indicate the date and<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier =
New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; time of the origination of the =
personal communications.&nbsp; The time<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; value should be of the =
NumericDate format as defined in [RFC7519],<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; Section&nbsp;2.&nbsp; This is included for =
securing the token against replay<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; and cut-and-paste =
attacks, as explained further in Section 10<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;("Security Considerations").<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">i- I see some conflict in RFC8225 text. It is mentioned that =
=E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D should be set based on issuance of JWT (which =
would be when PASSPorT is constructed). OTOH, it is also stated that it =
MUST indicate the date and time of the origination of the personal =
communication. The former seems to be &nbsp;the right approach as what =
we would like to protect against cut-and-paste attacks is the PASSPorT =
in the context of a particular communication session. Coupling of =
PASSPorT with the communication session is provided through =
=E2=80=9Corig=E2=80=9D/=E2=80=9Ddest=E2=80=9D. =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D =
should be set to the time of generation of PASSPorT IMHO. RFC8244 text =
seems to be O.K. if one accepts this interpretation as it has the notion =
of =E2=80=9Clocal policy for freshness=E2=80=9D. The recommended value =
is on the very high end (anything more than a few seconds is too much in =
practice IMHO) but it is at least not mandating use of 60s.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">ii- Aren=E2=80=99t there legitimate =
cases where a communication session continues for some period of time =
and then due to change in its nature requires addition of PASSPorT, e.g. =
first there is an announcement/interaction with an automated system =
(which may last several minutes) and then the called-party is contacted =
during which PASSPorT is added (because, for example, organizational =
boundaries are crossed and there is a need to validate calling-party =
identity). For such cases there could be a legitimate and major =
discrepancy between Date and =E2=80=9Ccurrent time=E2=80=9D. This is =
another argument in favor of considering =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D as =
corresponding to PASSPorT generation rather than start of communication =
session IMHO. There could eb many other scenarios where similar =
discrepancy legitimately happens especially if one considers non-base =
claim types, e.g.. =E2=80=9Cdiv=E2=80=9D.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">So, the bottom line is I would like to =
get people=E2=80=99s opinion about whether =E2=80=9Ciat=E2=80=9D should =
pertain to the start of communication session or to the creation of =
PASSPorT.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Thanks,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Tolga<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br=
 class=3D"">stir mailing list<br class=3D""></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(149, 79, 114);" =
class=3D"">stir@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; =
font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; color: rgb(149, 79, 114);" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir</span></a></div></di=
v></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: "Asveren, Tolga" <tasveren@rbbn.com>
To: Chris Wendt <chris-ietf@chriswendt.net>
CC: "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [stir] "iat" value to use during PASSPorT construction
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/stir/UjpcilrqKaoDdYpQRhekglq5oa0>
Subject: Re: [stir] "iat" value to use during PASSPorT construction
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From: "Das, Subir" <sdas@appcomsci.com>
To: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
CC: "draft-ietf-stir-rph@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-stir-rph@ietf.org>, "Russ Housley" <housley@vigilsec.com>, "stir-chairs@ietf.org" <stir-chairs@ietf.org>, "housley@vigilsec.com" <housley@vigilsec.com>, "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Ben Campbell's Yes on draft-ietf-stir-rph-05: (with COMMENT)
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Date: Fri, 18 May 2018 14:09:21 +0000
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Subject: Re: [stir] Ben Campbell's Yes on draft-ietf-stir-rph-05: (with COMMENT)
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From: "Das, Subir" <sdas@appcomsci.com>
To: Tim Chown <tim.chown@jisc.ac.uk>, "ops-dir@ietf.org" <ops-dir@ietf.org>
CC: "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-stir-rph.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-stir-rph.all@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Opsdir last call review of draft-ietf-stir-rph-05
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I support that.


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Just to be clear, the underlying protocol document is not a SIPCORE WG 
item, but being progressed as as an individual draft.

New SIP header fields can be created by such an individual draft in 
accordance with RFC 5727:

"

        The proposed header field MUST be of a purely informational
        nature and MUST NOT significantly change the behavior of SIP
        entities that support it.  Header fields that merely provide
        additional information pertinent to a request or a response are
        acceptable; these header fields are thus expected to have few, if
        any, implications for interoperability and backwards
        compatibility.  Similarly, header fields that provide data
        consumed by applications at the ends of SIP's rendezvous
        function, rather than changing the behavior of the rendezvous
        function, are likely to be providing information in this sense.
        If the header fields redefine or contradict normative behavior
        defined in Standards Track SIP specifications, that is what is
        meant by significantly different behavior.  Ultimately, the
        significance of differences in behavior is a judgment call that
        must be made by the expert reviewer.

"
However individual drafts tend to make slow progress without WGs to 
drive them.

I have no opinion on whether STIR should have support, but would 
question whether a WG standards track item should be defined to support 
protocol that was not progressed as a WG item and is an informational RFC.

regards

Keith

On 09-May-18 1:35 AM, Richard Shockey wrote:
>
> Who wants this?   What is the use case or business case for this as a 
> PASSporT?
>
> I’m actually curious?
>
> It has certainly taken way to long for Dan York’s draft to float 
> through the convoluted IETF process but why?
>
> —
>
> Richard Shockey
>
> Shockey Consulting LLC
>
> Chairman of the Board SIP Forum
>
> www.shockey.us
>
> www.sipforum.org
>
> richard<at>shockey.us
>
> Skype-Linkedin-Facebook –Twitter  rshockey101
>
> PSTN +1 703-593-2683
>
> *From: *stir <stir-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Asveren, Tolga" 
> <tasveren@rbbn.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, May 8, 2018 at 2:45 PM
> *To: *"stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *[stir] draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info
>
> I just submitted draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info:
>
> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info-00..txt<https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info-00.txt>
>
> It defines a new claim type for P-Charge-Info.
>
> P-Charge-Info is going through the last steps of becoming a RFC in 
> SIPCore WG and I though it would be a good idea to start working 
> on/kicking off discussions about the corresponding STIR support as it 
> is used to carry sensitive information for billing.
>
> And here is the link for P-Charge-Info draft:
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-york-p-charge-info-07
>
> Feedback/ideas/suggestions are appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tolga
>
> _______________________________________________ stir mailing list 
> stir@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> stir mailing list
> stir@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir



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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Just to be clear, the underlying
      protocol document is not a SIPCORE WG item, but being progressed
      as as an individual draft.<br>
      <br>
      New SIP header fields can be created by such an individual draft
      in accordance with RFC 5727:<br>
      <br>
      "
      <pre>       The proposed header field MUST be of a purely informational
       nature and MUST NOT significantly change the behavior of SIP
       entities that support it.  Header fields that merely provide
       additional information pertinent to a request or a response are
       acceptable; these header fields are thus expected to have few, if
       any, implications for interoperability and backwards
       compatibility.  Similarly, header fields that provide data
       consumed by applications at the ends of SIP's rendezvous
       function, rather than changing the behavior of the rendezvous
       function, are likely to be providing information in this sense.
       If the header fields redefine or contradict normative behavior
       defined in Standards Track SIP specifications, that is what is
       meant by significantly different behavior.  Ultimately, the
       significance of differences in behavior is a judgment call that
       must be made by the expert reviewer.</pre>
      "<br>
      However individual drafts tend to make slow progress without WGs
      to drive them.<br>
      <br>
      I have no opinion on whether STIR should have support, but would
      question whether a WG standards track item should be defined to
      support protocol that was not progressed as a WG item and is an
      informational RFC.<br>
      <br>
      regards<br>
      <br>
      Keith<br>
      <br>
      On 09-May-18 1:35 AM, Richard Shockey wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:9D563CDB-86A9-4939-8EC5-6717393C4DBC@shockey.us">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Who wants this?   What is the use case or
          business case for this as a PASSporT?  <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">I’m actually curious?<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">It has certainly taken way to long for Dan
          York’s draft to float through the convoluted IETF process but
          why? <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:1.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:1.0pt;margin-left:0in"><span
              style="font-size:8.0pt;color:black">— <o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:1.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:1.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-add-space:auto"><span
                style="font-size:8.0pt;color:black">Richard Shockey<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:1.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:1.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-add-space:auto"><span
                style="font-size:8.0pt;color:black">Shockey Consulting
                LLC<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:1.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:1.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-add-space:auto"><span
                style="font-size:8.0pt;color:black">Chairman of the
                Board SIP Forum<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:1.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:1.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-add-space:auto"><span
                style="font-size:8.0pt;color:black"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.shockey.us">www.shockey.us</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:1.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:1.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-add-space:auto"><span
                style="font-size:8.0pt;color:black"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.sipforum.org">www.sipforum.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:1.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:1.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-add-space:auto"><span
                style="font-size:8.0pt;color:black">richard&lt;at&gt;shockey.us<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:1.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:1.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-add-space:auto"><span
                style="font-size:8.0pt;color:black">Skype-Linkedin-Facebook
                –Twitter  rshockey101<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:1.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:1.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-add-space:auto"><span
                style="font-size:8.0pt;color:black">PSTN +1 703-593-2683<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
          1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
          <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
                style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span
              style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">stir
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org">&lt;stir-bounces@ietf.org&gt;</a> on behalf of "Asveren,
              Tolga" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:tasveren@rbbn.com">&lt;tasveren@rbbn.com&gt;</a><br>
              <b>Date: </b>Tuesday, May 8, 2018 at 2:45 PM<br>
              <b>To: </b><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stir@ietf.org">"stir@ietf.org"</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stir@ietf.org">&lt;stir@ietf.org&gt;</a><br>
              <b>Subject: </b>[stir] draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><a name="_MailOriginalBody"
            moz-do-not-send="true">I just submitted
            draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info:<o:p></o:p></a></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"></span><a
href="https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info-00.txt"
            target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
              style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info-00..txt</span><span
              style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"></span></a><span
            style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">It defines a new
            claim type for P-Charge-Info.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">P-Charge-Info is
            going through the last steps of becoming a RFC in SIPCore WG
            and I though it would be a good idea to start working
            on/kicking off discussions about the corresponding STIR
            support as it is used to carry sensitive information for
            billing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">And here is the link
            for P-Charge-Info draft:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"></span><a
            href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-york-p-charge-info-07"
            moz-do-not-send="true"><span
              style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-york-p-charge-info-07</span><span
              style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"></span></a><span
            style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">Feedback/ideas/suggestions
            are appreciated.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">Tolga<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
            style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">_______________________________________________
            stir mailing list <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stir@ietf.org">stir@ietf.org</a>
            <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir</a> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
stir mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stir@ietf.org">stir@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir</a>
</pre>
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From nobody Thu May 24 11:46:33 2018
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Subject: [stir] I-D Action: draft-ietf-stir-rph-06.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Secure Telephone Identity Revisited WG of the IETF.

        Title           : PASSporT Extension for Resource Priority Authorization
        Authors         : Ray P. Singh
                          Martin Dolly
                          Subir Das
                          An Nguyen
	Filename        : draft-ietf-stir-rph-06.txt
	Pages           : 10
	Date            : 2018-05-24

Abstract:
   This document extends the PASSporT (Personal Assertion Token)
   specification defined in [RFC8225] to allow the inclusion of
   cryptographically signed assertions of authorization for the values
   populated in the 'Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) Resource-
   Priority' header field, which is used for communications resource
   prioritization.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-stir-rph/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-stir-rph-06
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-stir-rph-06

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-stir-rph-06


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
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From: "Asveren, Tolga" <tasveren@rbbn.com>
To: "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [stir] draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info
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Subject: Re: [stir] draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info
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Just to restate, I am not expressing an opinion either for or against this.

I note that your document currently contains no normative references. I 
would have assumed that draft-york would have to be a normative 
reference (it is currently missing from the reference section, and there 
is apparently no section entitled normative references), and therefore 
at the very least, this would have to be an approved downref from a 
standards track document to an informational document.

But you may know differently!

regards

Keith

On 25-May-18 5:49 PM, Asveren, Tolga wrote:
>
> i- P-Charge-Info header is used over a decade in US by Tier-1’s and 
> also in some other geographies, e.g. Japan. The reason why there was a 
> relatively recent push to get it RFCed was mainly due to FCC.
>
> ii- draft-york-p-charge-info-07  indeed is a non-WG item. I don’t know 
> whether that would cause problems as questioned by Keith. Any feedback 
> on this is appreciated.
>
> iii- draft-york-p-charge-info-07 is now in AD-evaluation phase and I 
> am in the process to address the comments.
>
> iv- If used, P-Charge-Info has sensitive information and it being 
> verified, if possible, is a natural expectation IMHO. Therefore, I 
> submitted draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tolga
>
> *From:*stir <stir-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Keith Drage
> *Sent:* Thursday, May 24, 2018 10:44 AM
> *To:* stir@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [stir] draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> NOTICE: This email was received from an EXTERNAL sender
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Just to be clear, the underlying protocol document is not a SIPCORE WG 
> item, but being progressed as as an individual draft.
>
> New SIP header fields can be created by such an individual draft in 
> accordance with RFC 5727:
>
> "
>
>         The proposed header field MUST be of a purely informational
>         nature and MUST NOT significantly change the behavior of SIP
>         entities that support it.  Header fields that merely provide
>         additional information pertinent to a request or a response are
>         acceptable; these header fields are thus expected to have few, if
>         any, implications for interoperability and backwards
>         compatibility.  Similarly, header fields that provide data
>         consumed by applications at the ends of SIP's rendezvous
>         function, rather than changing the behavior of the rendezvous
>         function, are likely to be providing information in this sense.
>         If the header fields redefine or contradict normative behavior
>         defined in Standards Track SIP specifications, that is what is
>         meant by significantly different behavior.  Ultimately, the
>         significance of differences in behavior is a judgment call that
>         must be made by the expert reviewer.
>
> "
> However individual drafts tend to make slow progress without WGs to 
> drive them.
>
> I have no opinion on whether STIR should have support, but would 
> question whether a WG standards track item should be defined to 
> support protocol that was not progressed as a WG item and is an 
> informational RFC.
>
> regards
>
> Keith
>
> On 09-May-18 1:35 AM, Richard Shockey wrote:
>
>     Who wants this?   What is the use case or business case for this
>     as a PASSporT?
>
>     I’m actually curious?
>
>     It has certainly taken way to long for Dan York’s draft to float
>     through the convoluted IETF process but why?
>
>     —
>
>     Richard Shockey
>
>     Shockey Consulting LLC
>
>     Chairman of the Board SIP Forum
>
>     www.shockey.us <http://www.shockey.us>
>
>     www.sipforum.org <http://www.sipforum.org>
>
>     richard<at>shockey.us
>
>     Skype-Linkedin-Facebook –Twitter  rshockey101
>
>     PSTN +1 703-593-2683
>
>     *From: *stir <stir-bounces@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Asveren, Tolga"
>     <tasveren@rbbn.com> <mailto:tasveren@rbbn.com>
>     *Date: *Tuesday, May 8, 2018 at 2:45 PM
>     *To: *"stir@ietf.org" <mailto:stir@ietf.org> <stir@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:stir@ietf.org>
>     *Subject: *[stir] draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info
>
>     I just submitted draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info:
>
>     https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info-00..txt<https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info-00.txt>
>
>     It defines a new claim type for P-Charge-Info.
>
>     P-Charge-Info is going through the last steps of becoming a RFC in
>     SIPCore WG and I though it would be a good idea to start working
>     on/kicking off discussions about the corresponding STIR support as
>     it is used to carry sensitive information for billing.
>
>     And here is the link for P-Charge-Info draft:
>
>     https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-york-p-charge-info-07
>
>     Feedback/ideas/suggestions are appreciated.
>
>     Thanks,
>
>     Tolga
>
>     _______________________________________________ stir mailing list
>     stir@ietf.org<mailto:stir@ietf.org>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir
>
>
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>     stir mailing list
>
>     stir@ietf.org <mailto:stir@ietf.org>
>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> stir mailing list
> stir@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir



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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Just to restate, I am not expressing an
      opinion either for or against this.<br>
      <br>
      I note that your document currently contains no normative
      references. I would have assumed that draft-york would have to be
      a normative reference (it is currently missing from the reference
      section, and there is apparently no section entitled normative
      references), and therefore at the very least, this would have to
      be an approved downref from a standards track document to an
      informational document.<br>
      <br>
      But you may know differently!<br>
      <br>
      regards<br>
      <br>
      Keith<br>
      <br>
      On 25-May-18 5:49 PM, Asveren, Tolga wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">i-
            P-Charge-Info header is used over a decade in US by Tier-1’s
            and also in some other geographies, e.g. Japan. The reason
            why there was a relatively recent push to get it RFCed was
            mainly due to FCC.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">ii-
            draft-york-p-charge-info-07  indeed is a non-WG item. I
            don’t know whether that would cause problems as questioned
            by Keith. Any feedback on this is appreciated.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">iii-
            draft-york-p-charge-info-07 is now in AD-evaluation phase
            and I am in the process to address the comments.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">iv- If used,
            P-Charge-Info has sensitive information and it being
            verified, if possible, is a natural expectation IMHO.
            Therefore, I submitted draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext">Tolga<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:windowtext"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
        <div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in
          0in 0in 4.0pt">
          <div>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
                  style="color:windowtext"> stir
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org">&lt;stir-bounces@ietf.org&gt;</a>
                  <b>On Behalf Of </b>Keith Drage<br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 24, 2018 10:44 AM<br>
                  <b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stir@ietf.org">stir@ietf.org</a><br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [stir]
                  draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center"
            align="center">
            <hr size="2" align="center" width="100%">
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">NOTICE: This email was received from an
            EXTERNAL sender<o:p></o:p></p>
          <div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center"
            align="center">
            <hr size="2" align="center" width="100%">
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Just to be clear, the underlying
              protocol document is not a SIPCORE WG item, but being
              progressed as as an individual draft.<br>
              <br>
              New SIP header fields can be created by such an individual
              draft in accordance with RFC 5727:<br>
              <br>
              " <o:p></o:p></p>
            <pre>       The proposed header field MUST be of a purely informational<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>       nature and MUST NOT significantly change the behavior of SIP<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>       entities that support it.  Header fields that merely provide<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>       additional information pertinent to a request or a response are<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>       acceptable; these header fields are thus expected to have few, if<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>       any, implications for interoperability and backwards<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>       compatibility.  Similarly, header fields that provide data<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>       consumed by applications at the ends of SIP's rendezvous<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>       function, rather than changing the behavior of the rendezvous<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>       function, are likely to be providing information in this sense.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>       If the header fields redefine or contradict normative behavior<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>       defined in Standards Track SIP specifications, that is what is<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>       meant by significantly different behavior.  Ultimately, the<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>       significance of differences in behavior is a judgment call that<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>       must be made by the expert reviewer.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <p class="MsoNormal">"<br>
              However individual drafts tend to make slow progress
              without WGs to drive them.<br>
              <br>
              I have no opinion on whether STIR should have support, but
              would question whether a WG standards track item should be
              defined to support protocol that was not progressed as a
              WG item and is an informational RFC.<br>
              <br>
              regards<br>
              <br>
              Keith<br>
              <br>
              On 09-May-18 1:35 AM, Richard Shockey wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Who wants this?   What is the use case
              or business case for this as a PASSporT? 
              <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">I’m actually curious?<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">It has certainly taken way to long for
              Dan York’s draft to float through the convoluted IETF
              process but why?
              <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:1.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:1.0pt;margin-left:0in"><span
                  style="font-size:8.0pt">— </span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:1.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:1.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-add-space:auto"><span
                    style="font-size:8.0pt">Richard Shockey</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:1.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:1.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-add-space:auto"><span
                    style="font-size:8.0pt">Shockey Consulting LLC</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:1.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:1.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-add-space:auto"><span
                    style="font-size:8.0pt">Chairman of the Board SIP
                    Forum</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:1.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:1.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-add-space:auto"><span
                    style="font-size:8.0pt"><a
                      href="http://www.shockey.us"
                      moz-do-not-send="true">www.shockey.us</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:1.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:1.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-add-space:auto"><span
                    style="font-size:8.0pt"><a
                      href="http://www.sipforum.org"
                      moz-do-not-send="true">www.sipforum.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:1.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:1.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-add-space:auto"><span
                    style="font-size:8.0pt">richard&lt;at&gt;shockey.us</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:1.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:1.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-add-space:auto"><span
                    style="font-size:8.0pt">Skype-Linkedin-Facebook
                    –Twitter  rshockey101</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormalCxSpMiddle"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:1.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:1.0pt;margin-left:0in;mso-add-space:auto"><span
                    style="font-size:8.0pt">PSTN +1 703-593-2683</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt">From:
                  </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt">stir
                  <a href="mailto:stir-bounces@ietf.org"
                    moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;stir-bounces@ietf.org&gt;</a>
                  on behalf of "Asveren, Tolga"
                  <a href="mailto:tasveren@rbbn.com"
                    moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;tasveren@rbbn.com&gt;</a><br>
                  <b>Date: </b>Tuesday, May 8, 2018 at 2:45 PM<br>
                  <b>To: </b><a href="mailto:stir@ietf.org"
                    moz-do-not-send="true">"stir@ietf.org"</a> <a
                    href="mailto:stir@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">
                    &lt;stir@ietf.org&gt;</a><br>
                  <b>Subject: </b>[stir]
                  draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><a name="_MailOriginalBody"
                moz-do-not-send="true">I just submitted
                draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info:<o:p></o:p></a></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"></span><a
href="https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info-00.txt"
                target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                  style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info-00..txt</span><span
                  style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"></span></a><span
                style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">It defines a new
                claim type for P-Charge-Info.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">P-Charge-Info is
                going through the last steps of becoming a RFC in
                SIPCore WG and I though it would be a good idea to start
                working on/kicking off discussions about the
                corresponding STIR support as it is used to carry
                sensitive information for billing.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">And here is the
                link for P-Charge-Info draft:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"></span><a
                href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-york-p-charge-info-07"
                moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                  style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-york-p-charge-info-07</span><span
                  style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"></span></a><span
                style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">Feedback/ideas/suggestions
                are appreciated.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">Tolga<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">_______________________________________________
                stir mailing list
              </span><a href="mailto:stir@ietf.org"
                moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                  style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">stir@ietf.org</span><span
                  style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"></span></a><span
                style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">
              </span><a
                href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir"
                moz-do-not-send="true"><span
                  style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir</span><span
                  style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody"></span></a><span
                style="mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">
              </span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
              <br>
              <br>
              <o:p></o:p></p>
            <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>stir mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><a href="mailto:stir@ietf.org" moz-do-not-send="true">stir@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          </blockquote>
          <p><o:p> </o:p></p>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <br>
      <pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
stir mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stir@ietf.org">stir@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <p><br>
    </p>
  </body>
</html>

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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: "Asveren, Tolga" <tasveren@rbbn.com>, "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [stir] draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info
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Subject: [stir] FW: [Sipping] draft-york-sipping-p-charge-info-12: ABNF
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I reminder of how this all got started. Geez 2011=20

It was an issue in billing that caught the attention of the FCC some years =
back.

I had to dig around to remind myself of how this got started.  It came back=
 to the FCC when Henning was CTO and they were trying to track phantom traff=
ic specifically one way SIP traffic.  Its definitely in use.



=EF=BB=BFOn 12/5/11, 2:41 AM, "Hadriel Kaplan" <HKaplan@acmepacket.com> wrote:

   =20
    Yes I knew most of that, and normally I wouldn't have mentioned it - th=
ere's nothing wrong with defining a private header for private use in an inf=
o RFC, as far as I'm concerned.  And I think RFC 5727 even lets you keep the=
 "P-" portion if it's just documenting known usage or is grandfathered.
   =20
    But it's the "ATIS is looking at this" part that would make one think p=
erhaps it should NOT be a vendor-specific private-use header.  And that was =
the spirit in which I was responding to Richard's email, since he mentioned =
the FCC.  What two consenting adults wants to do is up to them - what the go=
vernment mandates of all is a bigger deal. ;)
   =20
    So anyway... to answer your question of how to get it moving faster, it=
 depends on what you want it for - if you just want to document what's been =
done and not get any input from others, the fastest way is probably to bypas=
s the IETF.  You can just request it be published by the RFC Editor independ=
ently, outside of the IETF.  The designated expert reviewer would hopefully =
pick up on errors.  But I'm not actually sure this draft would qualify if it=
 uses userinfo-params, because as far as I know they'd have to be registered=
 in the Tel-URI param registry which requires a standards-track doc I think.=
 :(
   =20
    On the other hand, if you want community feedback and are willing to ta=
ke input/changes to the proposed header, then this discussion should probabl=
y move to DISPATCH since that's the new "sipping" list.
   =20
    -hadriel
   =20
   =20
    On Dec 4, 2011, at 11:24 PM, Dan York wrote:
   =20
    > Hadriel,
    >=20
    > Soooo... a little background... this P-Charge-Info draft began life i=
n February *2008* as a simple attempt to register a SIP header with IANA per=
 RFC 3427 and to document the then *current practice* where the P-Charge-Inf=
o header was being used by my employer at the time (Voxeo, who I recently le=
ft in September 2011) and then subsequently how it was being used by people =
using Sonus Networks equipment. (See http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-york-s=
ipping-p-charge-info-01 )=20
    >=20
    > That was it... a simple attempt to document how the P-Charge-Info hea=
der had been used for several *years* inside *existing* private networks so =
that it could be registered with IANA per RFC 3427.
    >=20
    > We (Voxeo) wanted to register the usage so that when we indicated to =
carriers that we wanted to use P-Charge-Info to exchange billing info, we co=
uld point them to a published RFC that defined the header.  The exchange wou=
ld happen on the private connection between our SIP cloud and theirs, but we=
 wanted easy documentation we could point to.=20
    >=20
    > We also didn't want further proliferation of even more private header=
s that we would need to use and so hoped that documenting one would limit th=
e proliferation of more.
    >=20
    > Other people and companies subsequently indicated they wanted to use =
the header as a way to pass the ISUP Charge Number.  Folks from Telcordia, A=
lcatel-Lucent and other companies have been helping (along with, of course, =
Sonus Networks). Spencer Dawkins has also become involved because ATIS is ap=
parently looking to reference this header in one of their standards.
    >=20
    > Unfortunately, a couple things happened along the way.=20
    >=20
    > First, our timing was terrible. We got caught up by the RFC3427bis ef=
fort that was underway in 2008/9 and that became RFC 5727 in 2010 and change=
d the way SIP headers were registered. In the midst of that, I received guid=
ance from several folks that we should wait for the completion of that work =
as the process of registering SIP headers would be "easier".  Second, it tur=
ned out that we did need some clarifications on the passing of the ISUP Char=
ge Number via the NPI and NOA parameters, neither of which I personally work=
ed with, and so it required getting assistance from various parties.  Third,=
 I had some changes within my role at my employer that added some delays on =
my end.
    >=20
    > In the meantime, a good number of folks out there started to seriousl=
y use this document and this header and have been asking rather regularly fo=
r the past year or so about when this work will be completed so they can hav=
e a published document that they can reference. =20
    >=20
    > At this point, all I want to do is get this document moved along the =
path toward becoming an Informational RFC.
    >=20
    > I actually thought it was good to go until last week when these quest=
ions were raised about the ABNF. Not being an ABNF expert, I'm trying to com=
e to closure on what I need to get into the draft so that it will be clear t=
o implementors and will work for them.
    >=20
    >> I can't remember where Sonus encodes the noa/npi fields, but I belie=
ve Dialogic encodes them as header-params in a "P-Charge-Info" header, not u=
serinfo-params.
    >=20
    > Given that my co-author, Tolga Asveren, is from Sonus and he has been=
 the main source of info for the noa/npi parameters, I'm going to believe th=
at Sonus encodes them as userinfo-params.  Unfortunately, given the path thi=
s draft has taken, Dialogic could have encoded them as header-params based o=
n earlier versions of this draft (up to -09) where they were shown as being =
header-params. This was corrected in version -10 in October 2010, but obviou=
sly anyone doing an implementation in between would have had the guidance to=
 use header-params.
    >=20
    > So again, at this point, I'd really just like to get this draft moved=
 along so that we can document the current usage (except, I guess, for Dialo=
gic) within private networks.
    >=20
    > Any ideas on how to get it moving faster would be greatly appreciated=
.
    >=20
    > Thanks,
    > Dan
    >=20
    > P.S. As to the "P-Charge-Info" name and RFC 5727, I'll again note tha=
t this originated in 2008 with trying to document current usage and pre-date=
s RFC 5727 (by 2 years). We address that here:
    >=20
    > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-york-sipping-p-charge-info-12#sectio=
n-3
    >=20
    > On Dec 4, 2011, at 11:06 AM, Hadriel Kaplan wrote:
    >=20
    >>=20
    >> If the goal is to make it an interoperable header to be used outside=
 of a private network, rather than to just document a private header used by=
 a particular vendor, then I would suggest this discussion be moved to DISPA=
TCH rather than this supposedly-dead SIPPING mailing list.
    >>=20
    >> Further, it would probably require changing the header name (per RFC=
 5727), and getting consensus on the syntax and semantics.  It would hopeful=
ly NOT require a new mini-WG, but could be an individual submission handled =
by the AD or an independent submission to the RFC Editor.
    >>=20
    >> Lastly, I should note that this draft in its current form contradict=
s some actual deployed usage of this header - in particular, I can't remembe=
r where Sonus encodes the noa/npi fields, but I believe Dialogic encodes the=
m as header-params in a "P-Charge-Info" header, not userinfo-params.  IF two=
 vendors use the same header name but in different ways, then I think it arg=
ues even more strongly to use a brand-new header name for this draft. (and d=
on't use "Charge", because that's already used by yet another vendor)
    >>=20
    >> -hadriel
    >>=20
    >>=20
    >>=20
    >> On Nov 29, 2011, at 2:01 PM, Richard Shockey wrote:
    >>=20
    >>> Well well isn't this fascinating.
    >>>=20
    >>> I was just having a conversation with Dan about this today.
    >>>=20
    >>> This draft now takes on increasing significance as it solves a nast=
y little
    >>> problem of billing in one way SIP traffic (Skype -  Google Voice et=
al) that
    >>> is vexing the FCC and the carriers as they try to deal with what is
    >>> legalistically called "phantom traffic".   It's the preference I'm =
told is
    >>> if no calling party number is available use a CIC or OCN code of so=
rts. In
    >>> two way it could state the preference for billing which is either T=
he CPN or
    >>> 'Charging Number'=20
    >>>=20
    >>=20
    >> _______________________________________________
    >> Sipping mailing list  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sipping
    >> This list is for NEW development of the application of SIP
    >> Use sip-implementors@cs.columbia.edu for questions on current sip
    >> Use sip@ietf.org for new developments of core SIP
    >=20
    > --=20
    > Dan York  dyork@lodestar2.com
    > http://www.danyork.com/   skype:danyork
    > Phone: +1-802-735-1624
    > Twitter - http://twitter.com/danyork
    > --------------------------------------------------------
    > All comments and opinions are entirely my own and have no connection =
whatsoever to any employer, past or present. Indeed, by tomorrow even I migh=
t be disavowing these comments.
    > --------------------------------------------------------
    >=20
   =20



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From: Richard Shockey <richard@shockey.us>
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Thread-Topic: [dispatch] Need guidance on how to progress draft-york-dispatch-p-charge-info
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Subject: [stir] FW: [dispatch] Need guidance on how to progress draft-york-dispatch-p-charge-info
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Here was the issue Henning was trying to deal with... in 2015 and those iss=
ues are still there.=20

=E2=80=94=20
Richard Shockey

Shockey Consulting LLC

Chairman of the Board SIP Forum

www.shockey.us

www.sipforum.org

richard<at>shockey.us

Skype-Linkedin-Facebook =E2=80=93Twitter  rshockey101

PSTN +1 703-593-2683

=20

=EF=BB=BFOn 6/11/15, 1:02 PM, "Henning Schulzrinne" <Henning.Schulzrinne@fcc.gov>=
 wrote:

    Yes, carrying the charge number is important for various (arcane) settl=
ement and rural call completion issues; see
   =20
    47 CFR 64.1601
   =20
    for one example:
   =20
    Intermediate providers within an interstate or intrastate call path tha=
t originates and/or terminates on the PSTN must pass unaltered to subsequent=
 providers in the call path signaling information identifying the telephone =
number, or billing number, if different, of the calling party that is receiv=
ed with a call.
   =20
    https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/64.1601
   =20
    Henning
    ________________________________
    From: dispatch [dispatch-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Richard Shockey=
 [richard@shockey.us]
    Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 11:49 AM
    To: Mary Barnes; Dan York
    Cc: dispatch@ietf.org
    Subject: Re: [dispatch] Need guidance on how to progress draft-york-dis=
patch-p-charge-info
   =20
   =20
    BTW It was my understanding that there is actually a regulatory require=
ment here.
   =20
    Henning, if I recall, mentioned this a while back. I can=E2=80=99t recall the=
 context.
   =20
    From: Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com<mailto:mary.ietf.barnes@g=
mail.com>>
    Date: Thursday, June 11, 2015 at 12:29 AM
    To: Dan York <york@isoc.org<mailto:york@isoc.org>>
    Cc: "dispatch@ietf.org<mailto:dispatch@ietf.org>" <dispatch@ietf.org<ma=
ilto:dispatch@ietf.org>>
    Subject: Re: [dispatch] Need guidance on how to progress draft-york-dis=
patch-p-charge-info
   =20
    The DISPATCH process is fairly clearly described on the wiki:
    https://tools.ietf.org/wg/dispatch/trac/wiki
   =20
    So, your option 1. as Robert points out isn't an option with the curren=
t process.  Option 2 could happen as part of the DISPATCH process and as oth=
ers have noted seems the most likely outcome.  In the case of option 2, the =
usual process is to ask whether there are any concerns on the DISPATCH WG ma=
iling list and get feedback from the WG participants.
   =20
    The challenge of course is that we've deprecated P-headers and this wou=
ld be an exception and would have to be clearly documented as such, but I wo=
uld worry about this opening the floodgate for additional P-headers.  We wou=
ld need to be clear that this isn't the intent here.
   =20
    Regards,
    Mary.
   =20
    On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 2:06 PM, Dan York <york@isoc.org<mailto:york@is=
oc.org>> wrote:
   =20
    DISPATCH participants,
   =20
   =20
    I could use some help/guidance about how to move my now-seemingly-ancie=
nt P-Charge-Info draft forward. The draft is at:
   =20
   =20
    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-york-dispatch-p-charge-info-05
   =20
   =20
    Way back in 2008, I first submitted the draft to the SIPPING WG. My goa=
l was simply to *document the existing usage* of the P-Charge-Info SIP heade=
r per the then-relevant RFC 3427 so that the header could be listed in the I=
ANA registry of SIP parameters at:
   =20
   =20
    http://www.iana.org/assignments/sip-parameters/sip-parameters.xhtml#sip=
-parameters-2
   =20
   =20
    My employer at the time, Voxeo, was (and still is) a strong user of the=
 header and encouraged me to document it so that others could use the header=
 within private networks.  As an IETF participant and SIP advocate, I person=
ally wanted to document P-Charge-Info so that perhaps people could find it a=
nd use that header instead of creating yet another private header.  Tolga As=
veren of Sonus Networks joined on very early in the process because Sonus wa=
s (and presumably still is) also actively using the header.  Lots of other p=
eople  chimed in along the way.
   =20
   =20
    After an initial flurry of commentary and changes on the SIPPING list f=
rom 2008-2010, there's a longer story of why it took so long... there was th=
e RFC 3427bis process which became RFC 5727... life and job changes... much =
more...
   =20
   =20
    Anyway, at this point in 2015 I just want to move the document along an=
d get it published so that the header can be registered and, quite honestly,=
 so that I can stop renewing the document every 6 months.  Given that I stil=
l get inquiries about this header from time to time and that it is still bei=
ng used, I feel a certain responsibility to just "get this done" rather than=
 simply abandoning the draft.
   =20
   =20
    From what I know, there are three ways I can move this forward to publi=
cation:
   =20
   =20
    1. DISPATCH approval - this WG can approve the draft and send to the IE=
SG; [1]
   =20
   =20
    2. AD-SPONSORED - I can ask a friendly AD to help send this to the IESG=
;
   =20
   =20
    3. INDIVIDUAL SUBMISSION - I can send this in to the independent stream=
 editor.
   =20
   =20
    Am I correct?  And if so, what would any of you suggest as the simplest=
 path to checking this off as done?
   =20
   =20
    Comments on the actual draft are of course also welcome, with the remin=
der that the aim of the draft was and is to document existing usage rather t=
han to create a new header, etc.  (Because if it was to create a new header,=
 the "P-" would be removed, etc.)
   =20
   =20
    Thanks,
   =20
    Dan
   =20
   =20
    [1] And yes, I do realize there is actually a 4th path which is that DI=
SPATCH could "dispatch" this draft off to some other WG and I could then bri=
ng it through *that* WG. And if that's the best path I'm glad to do that, to=
o... I just want to get this finished.
   =20
   =20
   =20
    _______________________________________________
    dispatch mailing list
    dispatch@ietf.org<mailto:dispatch@ietf.org>
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
   =20
   =20
    _______________________________________________ dispatch mailing list d=
ispatch@ietf.org<mailto:dispatch@ietf.org> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list=
info/dispatch
   =20



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To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: "Asveren, Tolga" <tasveren@rbbn.com>, "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [stir] draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info
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Subject: Re: [stir] draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info
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--_000_D732E1553099Cchristerholmbergericssoncom_
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Hi,

Q1: As the purpose of draft-york-p-charge-info is document existing impleme=
ntations and usage of the PCI header field, the first question is whether w=
e should define =93enhancements=94 and new usages of the PCI header field?
[TOLGA] draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info does not add new functionality for=
 P-Charge-Info per se. It merely add verification capability for it.

True, but it is not documenting existing implementations anymore.

Q2: You should describe in what kind of environments this is needed.
[TOLGA]Noted and will add it in the next version -among other things-.

Q3: As draft-york-p-charge-info is to be published as an Informational RFC,=
 should draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info also be Informational? A PASSporT =
extension is =93Specification Required=94, so I assume an Informational RFC=
 qualifies.
[TOLGA]thanks for the feedback. I don=92t have a problem with that and woul=
d follow what is required from procedures perspective and will change it to=
 =93Informational=94.

I was also going to comment on the fact that you don=92t reference the york=
 draft, but Keith already brought that up :)

Q4: The text in Section 4.3 says:


   "An entity dropping P-Charge-Info MUST drop the corresponding Identity

   header with "ppt" parameter value of "pci=94."

        First, I assume you mean =93an entity supporting the pci PASSporT=
=94?

        Second, entities that only support the PCI header field, but not th=
e pci PASSporT, will not remove the corresponding Identity header field. I =
think you need some text about that.
 [TOLGA] I think this depends on what is meant by =93supporting pci PASSPor=
tT=94. An entity can still remove it if it is aware of =93pci=94 but does n=
ot support it in terms of adding/verifying pci Identity. OTOH, an entity co=
mpletely unaware of =93pci=94 wouldn=92t be able to do so.

Correct =96 that is the use-case I had in mind.

Regards,

Christer



--_000_D732E1553099Cchristerholmbergericssoncom_
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:black">Q1: As the purpose of draft-york-p-charge-info is document existing=
 implementations and usage of the PCI header field, the first question is w=
hether we should define =93enhancements=94
 and new usages of the PCI header field?</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">[TOLGA] draft-asveren-stir-p-ch=
arge-info does not add new functionality for P-Charge-Info per se. It merel=
y add verification capability for it.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>True, but it is not documenting existing implementations anymore.&nbsp=
;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
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soft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" x=
mlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:/=
/www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
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4.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt;">Q2: You should de=
scribe in what kind of environments this is needed.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">[TOLGA]Noted and will add it in=
 the next version -among other things-.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micro=
soft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" x=
mlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:/=
/www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt;">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:black">Q3: As draft-york-p-charge-info is to be published as an Informatio=
nal RFC, should&nbsp;draft-asveren-stir-p-charge-info also be Informational=
? A PASSporT extension is =93Specification Required=94,
 so I assume an Informational RFC qualifies.</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" sty=
le=3D"font-size:10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">[TOLGA]thanks for the feedback.=
 I don=92t have a problem with that and would follow what is required from =
procedures perspective and will change it to =93Informational=94.</span></p=
>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I was also going to comment on the fact that you don=92t reference the=
 york draft, but Keith already brought that up :)</div>
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mlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:/=
/www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:black">Q4: The text in Section 4.3 says:</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<pre style=3D"font-variant-ligatures: normal;orphans: 2;widows: 2;word-wrap=
: break-word;white-space:pre-wrap"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:blac=
k">&nbsp;&nbsp; &quot;An entity dropping P-Charge-Info MUST drop the corres=
ponding Identity</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; header with &q=
uot;ppt&quot; parameter value of &quot;pci=94.&quot;</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:black">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; First, I assume you mean =93an entity s=
upporting the pci PASSporT=94?</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:black">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Second, entities that only support the =
PCI header field, but not the pci PASSporT, will not remove the correspondi=
ng Identity header field. I think you need some text about
 that.</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt"><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">[TOLGA=
] I think this depends on what is meant by =93supporting pci PASSPortT=94. =
An entity can still remove it if it is aware of =93pci=94
 but does not support it in terms of adding/verifying pci Identity. OTOH, a=
n entity completely unaware of =93pci=94 wouldn=92t be able to do so.
</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Correct =96 that is the use-case I had in mind.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Christer</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
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