
From nobody Mon Jul  2 15:33:40 2018
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Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 15:33:32 -0700
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Subject: [stir] I-D Action: draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-03.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Secure Telephone Identity Revisited WG of the IETF.

        Title           : PASSporT Extension for Diverted Calls
        Author          : Jon Peterson
	Filename        : draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-03.txt
	Pages           : 11
	Date            : 2018-07-02

Abstract:
   This document extends PASSporT, which conveys cryptographically-
   signed information about the people involved in personal
   communications, to include an indication that a call has been
   diverted from its original destination to a new one.  This
   information can greatly improve the decisions made by verification
   services in call forwarding scenarios.  Also specified here is an
   encapsulation mechanism for nesting a PASSporT within another
   PASSporT that assists relying parties in some diversion scenarios.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-03
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-03

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-03


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Mon Jul  2 15:35:05 2018
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Subject: [stir] I-D Action: draft-ietf-stir-oob-03.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Secure Telephone Identity Revisited WG of the IETF.

        Title           : STIR Out-of-Band Architecture and Use Cases
        Authors         : Eric Rescorla
                          Jon Peterson
	Filename        : draft-ietf-stir-oob-03.txt
	Pages           : 23
	Date            : 2018-07-02

Abstract:
   The PASSporT format defines a token that can be carried by signaling
   protocols, including SIP, to cryptographically attest the identify of
   callers.  Not all telephone calls use Internet signaling protocols,
   however, and some calls use them for only part of their signaling
   path.  This document describes use cases that require the delivery of
   PASSporT objects outside of the signaling path, and defines
   architectures and semantics to provide this functionality.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-stir-oob/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
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https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-stir-oob-03

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-stir-oob-03


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From nobody Tue Jul  3 09:06:48 2018
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Subject: [stir] stir - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 102
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Dear Russ Housley,

The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled.
Below is the scheduled session information followed by
the original request. 


    stir Session 1 (1:30 requested)
    Wednesday, 18 July 2018, Afternoon Session II 1520-1650
    Room Name: Van Horne size: 130
    ---------------------------------------------


iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/sessions/stir.ics

Request Information:


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited
Area Name: Applications and Real-Time Area
Session Requester: Russ Housley

Number of Sessions: 1
Length of Session(s):  1.5 Hours
Number of Attendees: 60
Conflicts to Avoid: 
 First Priority: curdle sipbrandy ipwave modern ice secdispatch sipcore mmusic rtcweb avtcore ecrit tls acme lamps suit saag
 Second Priority: perc slim clue ace oauth dispatch
 Third Priority: tcpinc


People who must be present:
  Russ Housley
  Sean Turner
  Adam Roach
  Robert Sparks
  Jon Peterson
  Chris Wendt

Resources Requested:

Special Requests:
  
---------------------------------------------------------


From nobody Wed Jul  4 11:31:43 2018
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/stir/wMsRcAkvKvDaKE2_TuI8ezhIm-A>
Subject: [stir] Rejected Result Code (middle box version of Unwanted)
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--Apple-Mail=_E518C6EA-EEB6-4223-B6C5-AA18F3E4848A
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=utf-8

Apologies for posting late - I=E2=80=99ll get these into the ID system =
when it opens again on the 14th.  In the mean time, for your reading =
pleasure is a draft that describes a protocol mechanism that is =
excruciatingly similar to Unwanted (607), but different enough that it =
needs its own result code.

I am cross-posting to the STIR list because STIR folks will be the most =
interested in this code. However, for sanity please keep the discussion, =
flames, and +1=E2=80=99s to the SIPCORE list.

=
https://standardstrack.com/ietf/stir/draft-burger-sipcore-rejected-00.txt
=
https://standardstrack.com/ietf/stir/draft-burger-sipcore-rejected-00.html=

=
https://standardstrack.com/ietf/stir/draft-burger-sipcore-rejected-00.pdf

Thanks, and I hope to make it to Montr=C3=A9al this time.

- Eric=

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From nobody Thu Jul  5 15:43:35 2018
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From: The IESG <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
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Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, adam@nostrum.com, Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>, housley@vigilsec.com, stir@ietf.org, draft-ietf-stir-rph@ietf.org, stir-chairs@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org
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Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2018 15:43:12 -0700
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/stir/fc3gzr6yerxxL3qOynhtDS-3RiM>
Subject: [stir] Protocol Action: 'PASSporT Extension for Resource Priority Authorization' to Proposed Standard (draft-ietf-stir-rph-06.txt)
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The IESG has approved the following document:
- 'PASSporT Extension for Resource Priority Authorization'
  (draft-ietf-stir-rph-06.txt) as Proposed Standard

This document is the product of the Secure Telephone Identity Revisited
Working Group.

The IESG contact persons are Adam Roach, Alexey Melnikov and Ben Campbell.

A URL of this Internet Draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-stir-rph/





Technical Summary

  This document extends the STIR PASSporT specification to allow the
  inclusion of cryptographically-signed assertions of authorization
  for values that might appear in the SIP 'Resource-Priority' header
  field, which is used for communications resource prioritization.

Working Group Summary

  The STIR WG reached consensus, and there is strong support for
  publication of this document.

Document Quality

  Several people have expressed interest in implementing this
  specification.

Personnel

  Russ Housley is the Document Shepherd.
  Adam Roach is the Responsible Area Director.


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Thread-Topic: [stir] "iat" value to use during PASSPorT construction
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--_000_8F40C12DB483416FA40CFC922A91B9CDteamneustar_--


From nobody Mon Jul 16 13:43:15 2018
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From: Eric Burger <eburger@standardstrack.com>
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To: sipcore@ietf.org, stir@ietf.org
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 16:41:41 -0400
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Subject: [stir] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-burger-sipcore-rejected-00.txt
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As promised, here is the official submission. This version includes a =
mechanism for interoperability with legacy networks, including the PSTN. =
It only ~ doubled the length of the draft :0!

As before, please comment on the sipcore list.

See you in Montreal.
- Eric

> Begin forwarded message:
>=20
> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Subject: New Version Notification for =
draft-burger-sipcore-rejected-00.txt
> Date: July 16, 2018 at 4:29:53 PM EDT
> To: "Eric W. Burger" <eburger@standardstrack.com>, "Eric Burger" =
<eburger@standardstrack.com>
>=20
>=20
> A new version of I-D, draft-burger-sipcore-rejected-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Eric W. Burger and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>=20
> Name:		draft-burger-sipcore-rejected
> Revision:	00
> Title:		A Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) Response =
Code for Rejected Calls
> Document date:	2018-07-16
> Group:		Individual Submission
> Pages:		15
> URL:            =
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-burger-sipcore-rejected-00.txt
> Status:         =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burger-sipcore-rejected/
> Htmlized:       =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-burger-sipcore-rejected-00
> Htmlized:       =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-burger-sipcore-rejected
>=20
>=20
> Abstract:
>   This document defines the 608 (Rejected) SIP response code.  This
>   response code enables calling parties to learn their call was
>   rejected by an intermediary and will not be answered.  As a 6xx =
code,
>   the caller will be aware that future attempts to contact the same =
UAS
>   will be likely to fail.  The present use case driving the need for
>   the 608 response code is when the intermediary is an analytics
>   engine.  In other words, the rejection is by a machine or other
>   process, as opposed to a human at the target UAS indicating the call
>   was not wanted.  This document also defines the use of the Call-Info
>   header in 608 responses to enable rejected callers to contact
>   entities that blocked their calls in error.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat
>=20


--Apple-Mail=_31409304-F717-416E-A384-3677B130BDBD
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">As promised, here is the official submission. This version =
includes a mechanism for interoperability with legacy networks, =
including the PSTN. It only ~ doubled the length of the draft :0!<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">As before, please =
comment on the sipcore list.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">See you in Montreal.</div><div =
class=3D"">- Eric<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Begin forwarded =
message:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
-webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; =
color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">From: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
-webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; =
color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">New Version =
Notification for draft-burger-sipcore-rejected-00.txt</b><br =
class=3D""></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Date: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">July 16, 2018 at 4:29:53 PM =
EDT<br class=3D""></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">To: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">"Eric W. Burger" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:eburger@standardstrack.com" =
class=3D"">eburger@standardstrack.com</a>&gt;, "Eric Burger" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:eburger@standardstrack.com" =
class=3D"">eburger@standardstrack.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""></span></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D"">A new version of I-D, =
draft-burger-sipcore-rejected-00.txt<br class=3D"">has been successfully =
submitted by Eric W. Burger and posted to the<br class=3D"">IETF =
repository.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Name:<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>draft-burger-sipcore-rejected<br class=3D"">Revision:<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>00<br =
class=3D"">Title:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">=
	</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>A Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) Response Code for Rejected =
Calls<br class=3D"">Document date:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>2018-07-16<br =
class=3D"">Group:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">=
	</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>Individual Submission<br class=3D"">Pages:<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>15<br =
class=3D"">URL: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-burger-sipcore-rejected=
-00.txt" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-burger-sipcore-rejec=
ted-00.txt</a><br class=3D"">Status: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burger-sipcore-rejected/" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burger-sipcore-rejected/=
</a><br class=3D"">Htmlized: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-burger-sipcore-rejected-00" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-burger-sipcore-rejected-00</a=
><br class=3D"">Htmlized: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-burger-sipcore-rejecte=
d" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-burger-sipcore-reje=
cted</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Abstract:<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;This document defines the 608 (Rejected) SIP =
response code. &nbsp;This<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;response code =
enables calling parties to learn their call was<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;rejected by an intermediary and will not be answered. =
&nbsp;As a 6xx code,<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;the caller will be aware =
that future attempts to contact the same UAS<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;will be likely to fail. &nbsp;The present use case driving =
the need for<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;the 608 response code is when =
the intermediary is an analytics<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;engine. =
&nbsp;In other words, the rejection is by a machine or other<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;process, as opposed to a human at the target UAS =
indicating the call<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;was not wanted. =
&nbsp;This document also defines the use of the Call-Info<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;header in 608 responses to enable rejected callers to =
contact<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;entities that blocked their calls in =
error.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the =
time of submission<br class=3D"">until the htmlized version and diff are =
available at <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org" =
class=3D"">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The IETF =
Secretariat<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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Subject: [stir] PASSporT Diverted: implications of nesting
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I was thinking about nesting PASSporTs that represent diversion versus =
listing PASSporTs. What got me thinking was the statement in =
draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-03 that says:

	However, nested PASSPorTs could result in lengthy Identity =
headers, and some operational experience is needed to ascertain how =
viable multiple layers of nesting will be.

My immediate thought was, =E2=80=9CThat is OK, so long as the expected =
status for the draft will be Experimental, not Proposed Standard.=E2=80=9D=
 Of course, that thought did not sit well with me. The idea that we are =
going to standardize something we *hope* will work does not sound =
responsible.

That got me thinking with my Evil Hat(tm) on: it would be pretty trivial =
to setup a call forwarding chain to build a VERY long Identity header. =
Given how software gets done, I could imagine a rather nice and easy =
denial of service attack vector being created here.

Then I looked at the rationale for the nested object in the first place: =
for storage for out-of-band Call Placement Service.

How about this: instead of nested PASSporTs to support OOB, with the =
concomitant risk for DoS, we say we will standardize on a list of =
Identity headers. STIR OOB then could define how to package the list of =
identity headers into a single object for OOB. I would offer the issues =
are orthogonal. While it is =E2=80=98nice=E2=80=99 to have the same =
object bits for OOB as for the rest of the STIR ecosystem, how an =
OOB-aware system packages and stores the objects need not impact STIR =
itself.

A zero-order model for OOB might be to ZIP the headers first, sign them, =
and then store them at the CPS. When retrieved, the CPS would send the =
compressed object to the requestor, who by definition would know how to =
unzip and order the Identity headers.

Just a thought.

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Subject: [stir] PASSporT Diverted: MUST or SHOULD nest
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The very next paragraph:

   The "opt" extension is RECOMMENDED for use within in-band SIP use
   cases as well.  The alternative, having multiple Identity headers in
   a SIP request, could be confusing for some verification services.
   However, nested PASSporTs could result in lengthy Identity headers,
   and some operational experience is needed to ascertain how viable
   multiple layers of nesting will be.

This is a way of saying that diverted calls SHOULD use nested PASSporTs, =
not iterative Identity headers.

Experience for SHOULD is SHOULD =3D MAY =3D not done. However, someone =
always decides to do it anyway, that breaks things, increases software =
complexity, etc.

Hums in the room over the past few IETFs was there was a need for nested =
PASSporTs and it would make diversion easier to generate and process, =
especially in forking scenarios. Conversely, as noted in the document, =
we could end up with *extremely* long SIP *headers*, not just SIP =
messages. The likelihood of buffer overflows, etc. grows in this =
situation.

I would offer we CHOSE one or the other: either :-

1. Only have iterative PASSporTs. Don=E2=80=99t bother with nested =
PASSporTs.

2. Allow nested PASSporTs, and *mandate* (MUST) using nested PASSporTs =
for diversion.

If we go with #2, be sure to note in the Security Considerations section =
the risk of overly long headers. That would make me happy on that issue.

What say the list?

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From: Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 15:00:03 -0500
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To: Eric Burger <eburger@standardstrack.com>
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Subject: Re: [stir] PASSporT Diverted: MUST or SHOULD nest
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I'm in favor of option #2.

Regards,
Mary

On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 2:57 PM, Eric Burger <eburger@standardstrack.com>
wrote:

> The very next paragraph:
>
>    The "opt" extension is RECOMMENDED for use within in-band SIP use
>    cases as well.  The alternative, having multiple Identity headers in
>    a SIP request, could be confusing for some verification services.
>    However, nested PASSporTs could result in lengthy Identity headers,
>    and some operational experience is needed to ascertain how viable
>    multiple layers of nesting will be.
>
> This is a way of saying that diverted calls SHOULD use nested PASSporTs,
> not iterative Identity headers.
>
> Experience for SHOULD is SHOULD =3D MAY =3D not done. However, someone al=
ways
> decides to do it anyway, that breaks things, increases software complexit=
y,
> etc.
>
> Hums in the room over the past few IETFs was there was a need for nested
> PASSporTs and it would make diversion easier to generate and process,
> especially in forking scenarios. Conversely, as noted in the document, we
> could end up with *extremely* long SIP *headers*, not just SIP messages.
> The likelihood of buffer overflows, etc. grows in this situation.
>
> I would offer we CHOSE one or the other: either :-
>
> 1. Only have iterative PASSporTs. Don=E2=80=99t bother with nested PASSpo=
rTs.
>
> 2. Allow nested PASSporTs, and *mandate* (MUST) using nested PASSporTs fo=
r
> diversion.
>
> If we go with #2, be sure to note in the Security Considerations section
> the risk of overly long headers. That would make me happy on that issue.
>
> What say the list?
>
> _______________________________________________
> stir mailing list
> stir@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">I&#39;m in favor of option #2.<div><br></div><div>Regards,=
</div><div>Mary</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote">On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 2:57 PM, Eric Burger <span dir=3D"ltr">&l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:eburger@standardstrack.com" target=3D"_blank">eburger@s=
tandardstrack.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">T=
he very next paragraph:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The &quot;opt&quot; extension is RECOMMENDED for use within in=
-band SIP use<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0cases as well.=C2=A0 The alternative, having multiple Identity=
 headers in<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0a SIP request, could be confusing for some verification servic=
es.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0However, nested PASSporTs could result in lengthy Identity hea=
ders,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0and some operational experience is needed to ascertain how via=
ble<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0multiple layers of nesting will be.<br>
<br>
This is a way of saying that diverted calls SHOULD use nested PASSporTs, no=
t iterative Identity headers.<br>
<br>
Experience for SHOULD is SHOULD =3D MAY =3D not done. However, someone alwa=
ys decides to do it anyway, that breaks things, increases software complexi=
ty, etc.<br>
<br>
Hums in the room over the past few IETFs was there was a need for nested PA=
SSporTs and it would make diversion easier to generate and process, especia=
lly in forking scenarios. Conversely, as noted in the document, we could en=
d up with *extremely* long SIP *headers*, not just SIP messages. The likeli=
hood of buffer overflows, etc. grows in this situation.<br>
<br>
I would offer we CHOSE one or the other: either :-<br>
<br>
1. Only have iterative PASSporTs. Don=E2=80=99t bother with nested PASSporT=
s.<br>
<br>
2. Allow nested PASSporTs, and *mandate* (MUST) using nested PASSporTs for =
diversion.<br>
<br>
If we go with #2, be sure to note in the Security Considerations section th=
e risk of overly long headers. That would make me happy on that issue.<br>
<br>
What say the list?<br>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
stir mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:stir@ietf.org">stir@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/stir</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/stir/iyvumTZ0Om9DTmrtnJtmZoqPkhA>
Subject: Re: [stir] PASSporT Diverted: implications of nesting
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Presuming we go with MUST in the other thread, I would (editorially) =
suggest letting implementors know the motivation are all the stated use =
cases by Christer et al. OOB support is a nice side effect, as opposed =
to the rationale for the mechanism.


> On Jul 18, 2018, at 1:55 PM, williw <wilhelm@wimmreuter.de> wrote:
>=20
> Eric,
> Fully agree and lets wait what comes out of this =E2=80=9Cexperimental" =
state ;-)
>=20
> IMHO, going the passport way is over engineering anyhow. We have =
headers and SIP messages signed with a valid TN certificate. These =
Signed SIP messages can also be stored in the CPS (encrypted and ZIP'ed =
if needed) for OOB. Later on these SIP messages can be reused for =
following SIP-links after the the PSTN link =E2=80=A6
> This would be fully compliant to LTE interworking after PSTN as well.
> I do not really understand why this JWT passports have been introduced =
at all.
> I might be missing something here. Lets see what we learn today.
>=20
> Willi
>=20
>=20
>> On 18. Jul 2018, at 17:21, Eric Burger <eburger@standardstrack.com> =
wrote:
>>=20
>> Signed PGP part
>> I was thinking about nesting PASSporTs that represent diversion =
versus listing PASSporTs. What got me thinking was the statement in =
draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-03 that says:
>>=20
>> 	However, nested PASSPorTs could result in lengthy Identity =
headers, and some operational experience is needed to ascertain how =
viable multiple layers of nesting will be.
>>=20
>> My immediate thought was, =E2=80=9CThat is OK, so long as the =
expected status for the draft will be Experimental, not Proposed =
Standard.=E2=80=9D Of course, that thought did not sit well with me. The =
idea that we are going to standardize something we *hope* will work does =
not sound responsible.
>>=20
>> That got me thinking with my Evil Hat(tm) on: it would be pretty =
trivial to setup a call forwarding chain to build a VERY long Identity =
header. Given how software gets done, I could imagine a rather nice and =
easy denial of service attack vector being created here.
>>=20
>> Then I looked at the rationale for the nested object in the first =
place: for storage for out-of-band Call Placement Service.
>>=20
>> How about this: instead of nested PASSporTs to support OOB, with the =
concomitant risk for DoS, we say we will standardize on a list of =
Identity headers. STIR OOB then could define how to package the list of =
identity headers into a single object for OOB. I would offer the issues =
are orthogonal. While it is =E2=80=98nice=E2=80=99 to have the same =
object bits for OOB as for the rest of the STIR ecosystem, how an =
OOB-aware system packages and stores the objects need not impact STIR =
itself.
>>=20
>> A zero-order model for OOB might be to ZIP the headers first, sign =
them, and then store them at the CPS. When retrieved, the CPS would send =
the compressed object to the requestor, who by definition would know how =
to unzip and order the Identity headers.
>>=20
>> Just a thought.
>>=20
>>=20
>=20


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From nobody Wed Jul 18 13:39:59 2018
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From: "DOLLY, MARTIN C" <md3135@att.com>
To: Eric Burger <eburger@standardstrack.com>
CC: "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [stir] PASSporT Diverted: implications of nesting
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Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 20:14:41 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/stir/uLb5XG3YsbKG8FFIO5I50ntScc4>
Subject: Re: [stir] PASSporT Diverted: implications of nesting
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There are implementation issues w div

Martin C Dolly
AT&T
Lead Member of Technical Staff
Core Network & Gov=92t Regulatory Standards
+1 609 903 3360

> On Jul 18, 2018, at 4:11 PM, Eric Burger <eburger@standardstrack.com> wro=
te:
>=20
> Presuming we go with MUST in the other thread, I would (editorially) sugg=
est letting implementors know the motivation are all the stated use cases b=
y Christer et al. OOB support is a nice side effect, as opposed to the rati=
onale for the mechanism.
>=20
>=20
>> On Jul 18, 2018, at 1:55 PM, williw <wilhelm@wimmreuter.de> wrote:
>>=20
>> Eric,
>> Fully agree and lets wait what comes out of this =93experimental" state =
;-)
>>=20
>> IMHO, going the passport way is over engineering anyhow. We have headers=
 and SIP messages signed with a valid TN certificate. These Signed SIP mess=
ages can also be stored in the CPS (encrypted and ZIP'ed if needed) for OOB=
. Later on these SIP messages can be reused for following SIP-links after t=
he the PSTN link =85
>> This would be fully compliant to LTE interworking after PSTN as well.
>> I do not really understand why this JWT passports have been introduced a=
t all.
>> I might be missing something here. Lets see what we learn today.
>>=20
>> Willi
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On 18. Jul 2018, at 17:21, Eric Burger <eburger@standardstrack.com> wro=
te:
>>>=20
>>> Signed PGP part
>>> I was thinking about nesting PASSporTs that represent diversion versus =
listing PASSporTs. What got me thinking was the statement in draft-ietf-sti=
r-passport-divert-03 that says:
>>>=20
>>>    However, nested PASSPorTs could result in lengthy Identity headers, =
and some operational experience is needed to ascertain how viable multiple =
layers of nesting will be.
>>>=20
>>> My immediate thought was, =93That is OK, so long as the expected status=
 for the draft will be Experimental, not Proposed Standard.=94 Of course, t=
hat thought did not sit well with me. The idea that we are going to standar=
dize something we *hope* will work does not sound responsible.
>>>=20
>>> That got me thinking with my Evil Hat(tm) on: it would be pretty trivia=
l to setup a call forwarding chain to build a VERY long Identity header. Gi=
ven how software gets done, I could imagine a rather nice and easy denial o=
f service attack vector being created here.
>>>=20
>>> Then I looked at the rationale for the nested object in the first place=
: for storage for out-of-band Call Placement Service.
>>>=20
>>> How about this: instead of nested PASSporTs to support OOB, with the co=
ncomitant risk for DoS, we say we will standardize on a list of Identity he=
aders. STIR OOB then could define how to package the list of identity heade=
rs into a single object for OOB. I would offer the issues are orthogonal. W=
hile it is =91nice=92 to have the same object bits for OOB as for the rest =
of the STIR ecosystem, how an OOB-aware system packages and stores the obje=
cts need not impact STIR itself.
>>>=20
>>> A zero-order model for OOB might be to ZIP the headers first, sign them=
, and then store them at the CPS. When retrieved, the CPS would send the co=
mpressed object to the requestor, who by definition would know how to unzip=
 and order the Identity headers.
>>>=20
>>> Just a thought.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> stir mailing list
> stir@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir


From nobody Wed Jul 18 14:03:17 2018
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From: "Gorman, Pierce A [CTO]" <Pierce.Gorman@sprint.com>
To: "DOLLY, MARTIN C" <md3135@att.com>, Eric Burger <eburger@standardstrack.com>
CC: "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [stir] PASSporT Diverted: implications of nesting
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Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 21:03:06 +0000
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References: <5DD79F73-6A69-42AC-90EE-1EF12AD23291@standardstrack.com> <19FB042B-5CD8-4AB7-9919-F3D8A3D585F6@wimmreuter.de>, <E06A512D-AC80-43DF-BAD4-459D0514936E@standardstrack.com> <776FD932-06D5-4312-AFFA-2E911EFD5844@att.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/stir/ghbAR0sFfm1GeEnCQjWBA1am2PU>
Subject: Re: [stir] PASSporT Diverted: implications of nesting
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We've said for some time that more than one <insert credential here> would =
be a likely consequence of non-basic call flows.

DoS attacks using <insert credential here> has not been discussed much, but=
 only the most na=EFve have ignored the possibility (likelihood?).

My suggestion is to find lightweight ways to nest/list or ONLY use the most=
 basic orig/term assumptions.  i.e., consider that some carriers may by pol=
icy choose to block traffic with nested/list credentials because of the con=
cerns of DoS and TL:DR.

Pierce


-----Original Message-----
From: DOLLY, MARTIN C [mailto:md3135@att.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2018 3:15 PM
To: Eric Burger <eburger@standardstrack.com>
Cc: stir@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [stir] PASSporT Diverted: implications of nesting

There are implementation issues w div

Martin C Dolly
AT&T
Lead Member of Technical Staff
Core Network & Gov't Regulatory Standards
+1 609 903 3360

> On Jul 18, 2018, at 4:11 PM, Eric Burger <eburger@standardstrack.com> wro=
te:
>
> Presuming we go with MUST in the other thread, I would (editorially) sugg=
est letting implementors know the motivation are all the stated use cases b=
y Christer et al. OOB support is a nice side effect, as opposed to the rati=
onale for the mechanism.
>
>
>> On Jul 18, 2018, at 1:55 PM, williw <wilhelm@wimmreuter.de> wrote:
>>
>> Eric,
>> Fully agree and lets wait what comes out of this "experimental" state
>> ;-)
>>
>> IMHO, going the passport way is over engineering anyhow. We have
>> headers and SIP messages signed with a valid TN certificate. These Signe=
d SIP messages can also be stored in the CPS (encrypted and ZIP'ed if neede=
d) for OOB.. Later on these SIP messages can be reused for following SIP-li=
nks after the the PSTN link ... This would be fully compliant to LTE interw=
orking after PSTN as well.
>> I do not really understand why this JWT passports have been introduced a=
t all.
>> I might be missing something here. Lets see what we learn today.
>>
>> Willi
>>
>>
>>> On 18. Jul 2018, at 17:21, Eric Burger <eburger@standardstrack.com> wro=
te:
>>>
>>> Signed PGP part
>>> I was thinking about nesting PASSporTs that represent diversion versus =
listing PASSporTs. What got me thinking was the statement in draft-ietf-sti=
r-passport-divert-03 that says:
>>>
>>>    However, nested PASSPorTs could result in lengthy Identity headers, =
and some operational experience is needed to ascertain how viable multiple =
layers of nesting will be.
>>>
>>> My immediate thought was, "That is OK, so long as the expected status f=
or the draft will be Experimental, not Proposed Standard." Of course, that =
thought did not sit well with me. The idea that we are going to standardize=
 something we *hope* will work does not sound responsible.
>>>
>>> That got me thinking with my Evil Hat(tm) on: it would be pretty trivia=
l to setup a call forwarding chain to build a VERY long Identity header. Gi=
ven how software gets done, I could imagine a rather nice and easy denial o=
f service attack vector being created here.
>>>
>>> Then I looked at the rationale for the nested object in the first place=
: for storage for out-of-band Call Placement Service.
>>>
>>> How about this: instead of nested PASSporTs to support OOB, with the co=
ncomitant risk for DoS, we say we will standardize on a list of Identity he=
aders. STIR OOB then could define how to package the list of identity heade=
rs into a single object for OOB. I would offer the issues are orthogonal. W=
hile it is 'nice' to have the same object bits for OOB as for the rest of t=
he STIR ecosystem, how an OOB-aware system packages and stores the objects =
need not impact STIR itself.
>>>
>>> A zero-order model for OOB might be to ZIP the headers first, sign them=
, and then store them at the CPS. When retrieved, the CPS would send the co=
mpressed object to the requestor, who by definition would know how to unzip=
 and order the Identity headers.
>>>
>>> Just a thought.
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> stir mailing list
> stir@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir



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Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 17:10:57 -0400
From: Richard Shockey <richard@shockey.us>
To: Eric Burger <eburger@standardstrack.com>, <stir@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <67365056-E8A3-4519-968D-40D6D0FCF71D@shockey.us>
Thread-Topic: [stir] PASSporT Diverted: implications of nesting
References: <5DD79F73-6A69-42AC-90EE-1EF12AD23291@standardstrack.com> <19FB042B-5CD8-4AB7-9919-F3D8A3D585F6@wimmreuter.de> <E06A512D-AC80-43DF-BAD4-459D0514936E@standardstrack.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/stir/2jGolNtNWUx9FO2FHYhRRH_AVTI>
Subject: Re: [stir] PASSporT Diverted: implications of nesting
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+1=20

=E2=80=94=20
Richard Shockey

Shockey Consulting LLC

Chairman of the Board SIP Forum

www.shockey.us

www.sipforum.org

richard<at>shockey.us

Skype-Linkedin-Facebook =E2=80=93Twitter  rshockey101

PSTN +1 703-593-2683

=20

=EF=BB=BFOn 7/18/18, 4:11 PM, "stir on behalf of Eric Burger" <stir-bounces@ietf.=
org on behalf of eburger@standardstrack.com> wrote:

    Presuming we go with MUST in the other thread, I would (editorially) su=
ggest letting implementors know the motivation are all the stated use cases =
by Christer et al. OOB support is a nice side effect, as opposed to the rati=
onale for the mechanism.
   =20
   =20
    > On Jul 18, 2018, at 1:55 PM, williw <wilhelm@wimmreuter.de> wrote:
    >=20
    > Eric,
    > Fully agree and lets wait what comes out of this =E2=80=9Cexperimental" sta=
te ;-)
    >=20
    > IMHO, going the passport way is over engineering anyhow. We have head=
ers and SIP messages signed with a valid TN certificate. These Signed SIP me=
ssages can also be stored in the CPS (encrypted and ZIP'ed if needed) for OO=
B. Later on these SIP messages can be reused for following SIP-links after t=
he the PSTN link =E2=80=A6
    > This would be fully compliant to LTE interworking after PSTN as well.
    > I do not really understand why this JWT passports have been introduce=
d at all.
    > I might be missing something here. Lets see what we learn today.
    >=20
    > Willi
    >=20
    >=20
    >> On 18. Jul 2018, at 17:21, Eric Burger <eburger@standardstrack.com> =
wrote:
    >>=20
    >> Signed PGP part
    >> I was thinking about nesting PASSporTs that represent diversion vers=
us listing PASSporTs. What got me thinking was the statement in draft-ietf-s=
tir-passport-divert-03 that says:
    >>=20
    >> 	However, nested PASSPorTs could result in lengthy Identity headers,=
 and some operational experience is needed to ascertain how viable multiple =
layers of nesting will be.
    >>=20
    >> My immediate thought was, =E2=80=9CThat is OK, so long as the expected sta=
tus for the draft will be Experimental, not Proposed Standard.=E2=80=9D Of course,=
 that thought did not sit well with me. The idea that we are going to standa=
rdize something we *hope* will work does not sound responsible.
    >>=20
    >> That got me thinking with my Evil Hat(tm) on: it would be pretty tri=
vial to setup a call forwarding chain to build a VERY long Identity header. =
Given how software gets done, I could imagine a rather nice and easy denial =
of service attack vector being created here.
    >>=20
    >> Then I looked at the rationale for the nested object in the first pl=
ace: for storage for out-of-band Call Placement Service.
    >>=20
    >> How about this: instead of nested PASSporTs to support OOB, with the=
 concomitant risk for DoS, we say we will standardize on a list of Identity =
headers. STIR OOB then could define how to package the list of identity head=
ers into a single object for OOB. I would offer the issues are orthogonal. W=
hile it is =E2=80=98nice=E2=80=99 to have the same object bits for OOB as for the rest o=
f the STIR ecosystem, how an OOB-aware system packages and stores the object=
s need not impact STIR itself.
    >>=20
    >> A zero-order model for OOB might be to ZIP the headers first, sign t=
hem, and then store them at the CPS. When retrieved, the CPS would send the =
compressed object to the requestor, who by definition would know how to unzi=
p and order the Identity headers.
    >>=20
    >> Just a thought.
    >>=20
    >>=20
    >=20
   =20
    _______________________________________________
    stir mailing list
    stir@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir
   =20



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To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: Richard Shockey <richard@shockey.us>, Eric Burger <eburger@standardstrack.com>, "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [stir] PASSporT Diverted: implications of nesting
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Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 14:04:26 +0000
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Subject: Re: [stir] PASSporT Diverted: implications of nesting
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From: "Gorman, Pierce A [CTO]" <Pierce.Gorman@sprint.com>
To: Eric Burger <eburger@standardstrack.com>, "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [stir] PASSporT Diverted: implications of nesting
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Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 14:15:30 +0000
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Subject: Re: [stir] PASSporT Diverted: implications of nesting
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From nobody Fri Jul 20 08:16:12 2018
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Subject: Re: [stir] "iat" value to use during PASSPorT construction
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Sorry, I unsuccessfully submitted my concern on jabber list during the =
meeting.
However, this could be valid in this and applies possibly other areas of =
stir as well.


My concern that came up while seeing the cat slides in meeting was the =
following:


Signing outbound / E-gres calls only.
This emulates the old PSTN paradigm and enables impersonation as we have =
it in SS7.
Without originating signatures this seems to be a big impersonation hole =
I assume.

In fact, operators will happily sign my robocalls and other malicious =
stuff.
And this will guarantee that my robocalls have a valid signature that =
will also be perfect for OOB signalling etc.

Is this concern valid?

Sorry this did not come through the scribe and to the mic.

Thanks

Willi


From nobody Fri Jul 20 11:18:34 2018
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From: "Asveren, Tolga" <tasveren@rbbn.com>
To: williw <wilhelm@wimmreuter.de>
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Subject: Re: [stir] "iat" value to use during PASSPorT construction
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From: "Gorman, Pierce A [CTO]" <Pierce.Gorman@sprint.com>
To: "Asveren, Tolga" <tasveren@rbbn.com>, williw <wilhelm@wimmreuter.de>
CC: "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [stir] "iat" value to use during PASSPorT construction
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/stir/UnX6Ac9zQgRTt67tdygUNZBWfEY>
Subject: Re: [stir] "iat" value to use during PASSPorT construction
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From: "Asveren, Tolga" <tasveren@rbbn.com>
To: "Gorman, Pierce A [CTO]" <Pierce.Gorman@sprint.com>, williw <wilhelm@wimmreuter.de>
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Thread-Topic: [stir] "iat" value to use during PASSPorT construction
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Subject: Re: [stir] "iat" value to use during PASSPorT construction
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From: "Gorman, Pierce A [CTO]" <Pierce.Gorman@sprint.com>
To: "Asveren, Tolga" <tasveren@rbbn.com>, williw <wilhelm@wimmreuter.de>
CC: "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [stir] "iat" value to use during PASSPorT construction
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/stir/4nbo9neazgzlJUysqilD7gue87U>
Subject: Re: [stir] "iat" value to use during PASSPorT construction
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From: "Asveren, Tolga" <tasveren@rbbn.com>
To: "Gorman, Pierce A [CTO]" <Pierce.Gorman@sprint.com>, williw <wilhelm@wimmreuter.de>
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Thread-Topic: [stir] "iat" value to use during PASSPorT construction
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Subject: Re: [stir] "iat" value to use during PASSPorT construction
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From: "Gorman, Pierce A [CTO]" <Pierce.Gorman@sprint.com>
To: "Asveren, Tolga" <tasveren@rbbn.com>, williw <wilhelm@wimmreuter.de>
CC: "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [stir] "iat" value to use during PASSPorT construction
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Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 20:32:29 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/stir/S8THWCAqYOmHk8_1f9raJB4j6AU>
Subject: Re: [stir] "iat" value to use during PASSPorT construction
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From: "Asveren, Tolga" <tasveren@rbbn.com>
To: "Gorman, Pierce A [CTO]" <Pierce.Gorman@sprint.com>, williw <wilhelm@wimmreuter.de>
CC: "stir@ietf.org" <stir@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [stir] "iat" value to use during PASSPorT construction
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Subject: Re: [stir] "iat" value to use during PASSPorT construction
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Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 13:48:25 -0400
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Subject: [stir] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-burger-sipcore-rejected-01.txt
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[Please keep discussion on the sipcore list. Thanks!]

Changes from -00:
Mostly editorial, including all but one of Tonga=E2=80=99s suggestions =
and cleaning up some of the ASCII art.
Included the Feature-Caps header in the example.
Included an example of an audio announcement.

> Begin forwarded message:
>=20
> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Subject: New Version Notification for =
draft-burger-sipcore-rejected-01.txt
> Date: July 23, 2018 at 4:09:39 PM EDT
> To: "Eric W. Burger" <eburger@standardstrack.com>, "Eric Burger" =
<eburger@standardstrack.com>
>=20
>=20
> A new version of I-D, draft-burger-sipcore-rejected-01.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Eric W. Burger and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>=20
> Name:		draft-burger-sipcore-rejected
> Revision:	01
> Title:		A Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) Response =
Code for Rejected Calls
> Document date:	2018-07-23
> Group:		Individual Submission
> Pages:		15
> URL:            =
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-burger-sipcore-rejected-01.txt
> Status:         =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-burger-sipcore-rejected/
> Htmlized:       =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-burger-sipcore-rejected-01
> Htmlized:       =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-burger-sipcore-rejected
> Diff:           =
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-burger-sipcore-rejected-01
>=20
> Abstract:
>   This document defines the 608 (Rejected) SIP response code.  This
>   response code enables calling parties to learn their call was
>   rejected by an intermediary and will not be answered.  As a 6xx =
code,
>   the caller will be aware that future attempts to contact the same =
UAS
>   will be likely to fail.  The present use case driving the need for
>   the 608 response code is when the intermediary is an analytics
>   engine.  In this case, the rejection is by a machine or other
>   process.  This contrasts with the 607 (Unwanted) SIP response code,
>   which a human at the target UAS indicated the call was not wanted.
>   In some jurisdictions this distinction is important and may have
>   additional requirements beyond the 607 response code.  Specifically,
>   this document defines the use of the Call-Info header in 608
>   responses to enable rejected callers to contact entities that =
blocked
>   their calls in error.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat
>=20


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Subject: [stir] Minutes: STIR at IETF102
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See <https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/minutes-102-stir-00>

Please send any necessary additions or corrections to the list or the 
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RjS

