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boundary="_000_BN6PR03MB2802AECFF6006A436A0425EAA56D0BN6PR03MB2802namp_" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [stir] [sipcore] New Version Notification for draft-ietf-sipcore-rejected-03.txt X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2019 22:32:35 -0000 --_000_BN6PR03MB2802AECFF6006A436A0425EAA56D0BN6PR03MB2802namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Looks good to me with a single comment: "Since the decision of whether to include Call-Info in the 608 response is a matter of policy, one thing to consider is whether a legitimate caller can ascertain whom to contact without such information being included in the 608. For example, in some jurisdictions, if the terminating service provider is the intermediary, the caller can lookup who the terminating service provider is based on the routing information for the dialled number. As such, the Call-Info jCard could be redundant information. However, the factors going into a particular service provider's or jourisdiction's choice of whether or not to include Call-Info is outside the scope of this document." The example confused me. How would the caller know that the intermediary is= the terminating network? How would caller know which number to call? The u= se case of potentially not including Call-Info/jCard I had in mind was: * Caller calls his own operator, which follows up the issue on his beha= lf * There is a single, nation-wide number for the caller to contact (and = that may be provided to caller party) Thanks, Tolga 1. Addressed /most/ of Tolga's nits. I decided to leave 'intermediary' as i= s. If the WG disagrees, I won't fall on my sword for it and will do a globa= l substitution. 2. Fixed some unclear language Bhavik found when implementing the draft. 3. BTW, that means we have an open-source prototype at https://github.com/n= agdab/608_Implementation I think we're done. What do *you* think? - Eric >> On Feb 3, 2019, at 2:50 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >> >> >> A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-sipcore-rejected-03.txt >> has been successfully submitted by Eric W. Burger and posted to the >> IETF repository. >> >> Name: draft-ietf-sipcore-rejected >> Revision: 03 >> Title: A Session Initiation Protocol (SIP= ) Response Code for Rejected Calls >> Document date: 2019-02-03 >> Group: sipcore >> Pages: 22 >> URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sipcore-= rejected-03.txt >> Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sipcore-reje= cted/ >> Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sipcore-rejected-= 03 >> Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-sipcore= -rejected >> Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-sipcore-r= ejected-03 >> >> Abstract: >> This document defines the 608 (Rejected) SIP response code. This >> response code enables calling parties to learn that an intermediary >> rejected their call attempt. The call will not be answered. As a >> 6xx code, the caller will be aware that future attempts to contact >> the same UAS will likely fail. The present use case driving the need >> for the 608 response code is when the intermediary is an analytics >> engine. In this case, the rejection is by a machine or other >> process. This contrasts with the 607 (Unwanted) SIP response code, >> which a human at the target UAS indicated the call was not wanted. >> In some jurisdictions this distinction is important. This document >> also defines the use of the Call-Info header in 608 responses to >> enable rejected callers to contact entities that blocked their calls >> in error. This provides a remediation mechanism for legal callers >> that find their calls blocked. >> >> >> >> >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submis= sion >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >> >> The IETF Secretariat >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------- Notice: This e-mail together with any attachments may contain information o= f Ribbon Communications Inc. that is confidential and/or proprietary for the sole use of the intended recipie= nt. Any review, disclosure, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly= prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and then delete all copies,= including any attachments. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------- --_000_BN6PR03MB2802AECFF6006A436A0425EAA56D0BN6PR03MB2802namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Looks good to me with a single comment:

 

“Since the decision of whether to include Call= -Info in the 608

   response is a matter of policy, one thi= ng to consider is whether a

   legitimate caller can ascertain whom to= contact without such

   information being included in the 608.&= nbsp; For example, in some

   jurisdictions, if the terminating servi= ce provider is the

   intermediary, the caller can lookup who= the terminating service

   provider is based on the routing inform= ation for the dialled number.

   As such, the Call-Info jCard could be r= edundant information.

   However, the factors going into a parti= cular service provider's or

   jourisdiction's choice of whether or no= t to include Call-Info is

   outside the scope of this document.R= 21;

 

 

The example confused me. How would the caller know t= hat the intermediary is the terminating network? How would caller know whic= h number to call? The use case of potentially not including Call-Info/jCard= I had in mind was:

  • Caller calls his own operator, which follows up the issue on his beha= lf
  • There is a single, nation-wide number for the calle= r to contact (and that may be provided to caller party)

 

Thanks,

Tolga

 

 

 

1. Addressed /most/ of Tolga's nits. I decided to le= ave ‘intermediary’ as is. If the WG disagrees, I won’t fa= ll on my sword for it and will do a global substitution.

 

2. Fixed some unclear language Bhavik found when imp= lementing the draft.

 

3. BTW, that means we have an open-source prototype = at https://github.= com/nagdab/608_Implementation

 

I think we’re done. What do *you* think?<= /o:p>

 

- Eric

 

>> On Feb 3, 2019, at 2:50 PM, internet-drafts= @ietf.org wrote:

>>

>>

>> A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-sipcore-re= jected-03.txt

>> has been successfully submitted by Eric W. = Burger and posted to the

>> IETF repository.

>>

>> Name:      &n= bsp;            = ;         draft-ietf-sipcore-reject= ed

>> Revision:     &nbs= p;  03

>> Title:      &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;             = A Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) Response Code for Rejected Calls

>> Document date:     = ;    2019-02-03

>> Group:      &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;         sipcore

>> Pages:      &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;          22

>> URL:      &nb= sp;     https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/d= raft-ietf-sipcore-rejected-03.txt

>> Status:      =    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sipcore-rejected/

>> Htmlized:     &nbs= p; h= ttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sipcore-rejected-03

>> Htmlized:     &nbs= p; https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-sipcore-rejected=

>> Diff:      &n= bsp;    https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-s= ipcore-rejected-03

>>

>> Abstract:

>>  This document defines the 608 (Reject= ed) SIP response code.  This

>>  response code enables calling parties= to learn that an intermediary

>>  rejected their call attempt.  Th= e call will not be answered.  As a

>>  6xx code, the caller will be aware th= at future attempts to contact

>>  the same UAS will likely fail.  = The present use case driving the need

>>  for the 608 response code is when the= intermediary is an analytics

>>  engine.  In this case, the rejec= tion is by a machine or other

>>  process.  This contrasts with th= e 607 (Unwanted) SIP response code,

>>  which a human at the target UAS indic= ated the call was not wanted.

>>  In some jurisdictions this distinctio= n is important.  This document

>>  also defines the use of the Call-Info= header in 608 responses to

>>  enable rejected callers to contact en= tities that blocked their calls

>>  in error.  This provides a remed= iation mechanism for legal callers

>>  that find their calls blocked.

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> Please note that it may take a couple of mi= nutes from the time of submission

>> until the htmlized version and diff are ava= ilable at tools.ietf.org.

>>

>> The IETF Secretariat

>>

>

 



Noti= ce: This e-mail together with any attachments may contain information of Ri= bbon Communications Inc. that is confidential and/or proprietary for the so= le use of the intended recipient. Any review, disclosure, reliance or dist= ribution by others or forwarding without express permission is strictly pro= hibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender i= mmediately and then delete all copies, including any attachments.
--_000_BN6PR03MB2802AECFF6006A436A0425EAA56D0BN6PR03MB2802namp_-- From nobody Mon Feb 4 15:52:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D43B1129AA0 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 15:52:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.689 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.689 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=neutral reason="invalid (public key: not available)" header.d=standardstrack.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xtRoNvG33T2Z for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 15:52:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from biz221.inmotionhosting.com (biz221.inmotionhosting.com [198.46.93.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 33FF6129508 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 15:52:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=standardstrack.com; s=default; h=References:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:Date:Subject: Mime-Version:Content-Type:Message-Id:From:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=/zw081RGy2pqI6OqwoIEb+yeMyH3WInyI23AnVKFsXo=; b=EuQDepopf8pI6W6bmTd1TW9iA NekV1HzTIFQborywaChp37h2SjBf3X2zHcCVjUkLQc6jlgJ845WNz3G9InG9yfXAnMScbUKBkIEWo esyjfI4QYpmOFeuIySGGTlU6e73TjXgsse28+AELprX5+WOulcBabEgaFdaWNl3r5xNfw=; Received: from [68.100.196.217] (port=54577 helo=[192.168.10.26]) by biz221.inmotionhosting.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1gqo2T-000Syd-LC; Mon, 04 Feb 2019 15:52:45 -0800 From: Eric Burger Message-Id: <1BD3FE9C-E20C-475D-A347-769753EC10AB@standardstrack.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A4D295BE-D652-476A-B755-2FEDD9C856CD"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 18:52:32 -0500 In-Reply-To: Cc: "stir@ietf.org Mail List" To: "Asveren, Tolga" References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - biz221.inmotionhosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - standardstrack.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: biz221.inmotionhosting.com: authenticated_id: eburger+standardstrack.com/only user confirmed/virtual account not confirmed X-Authenticated-Sender: biz221.inmotionhosting.com: eburger@standardstrack.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [stir] [sipcore] New Version Notification for draft-ietf-sipcore-rejected-03.txt X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2019 23:52:49 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A4D295BE-D652-476A-B755-2FEDD9C856CD Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E11A8F21-8812-49BA-99E9-DC99C565673E" --Apple-Mail=_E11A8F21-8812-49BA-99E9-DC99C565673E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I might have been thinking of the US situation where it is likely to be = the terminating provider providing the blocking service. In the US, = it=E2=80=99s trivial to look up the terminating provider from the = number. For a carrier, its the LERG and NPAC. For a consumer, there are = tons of free Web directories. If there is a central phone number to call in a country for remediation, = there=E2=80=99s no need for Call-Info, because presumably the callers = will know the central phone number to call. > On Feb 4, 2019, at 5:32 PM, Asveren, Tolga wrote: >=20 >=20 > Looks good to me with a single comment: >=20 > =E2=80=9CSince the decision of whether to include Call-Info in the 608 > response is a matter of policy, one thing to consider is whether a > legitimate caller can ascertain whom to contact without such > information being included in the 608. For example, in some > jurisdictions, if the terminating service provider is the > intermediary, the caller can lookup who the terminating service > provider is based on the routing information for the dialled = number. > As such, the Call-Info jCard could be redundant information. > However, the factors going into a particular service provider's or > jourisdiction's choice of whether or not to include Call-Info is > outside the scope of this document.=E2=80=9D >=20 >=20 > The example confused me. How would the caller know that the = intermediary is the terminating network? How would caller know which = number to call? The use case of potentially not including = Call-Info/jCard I had in mind was: > Caller calls his own operator, which follows up the issue on his = behalf > There is a single, nation-wide number for the caller to contact (and = that may be provided to caller party) >=20 > Thanks, > Tolga >=20 >=20 >=20 > 1. Addressed /most/ of Tolga's nits. I decided to leave = =E2=80=98intermediary=E2=80=99 as is. If the WG disagrees, I won=E2=80=99t= fall on my sword for it and will do a global substitution. >=20 > 2. Fixed some unclear language Bhavik found when implementing the = draft. >=20 > 3. BTW, that means we have an open-source prototype at = https://github.com/nagdab/608_Implementation = >=20 > I think we=E2=80=99re done. What do *you* think? >=20 > - Eric >=20 > >> On Feb 3, 2019, at 2:50 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org = wrote: > >> > >> > >> A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-sipcore-rejected-03.txt > >> has been successfully submitted by Eric W. Burger and posted to the > >> IETF repository. > >> > >> Name: draft-ietf-sipcore-rejected > >> Revision: 03 > >> Title: A Session Initiation Protocol = (SIP) Response Code for Rejected Calls > >> Document date: 2019-02-03 > >> Group: sipcore > >> Pages: 22 > >> URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sipcore-rejected-03.txt = > >> Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sipcore-rejected/ = > >> Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sipcore-rejected-03 = > >> Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-sipcore-rejected = > >> Diff: = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-sipcore-rejected-03 = > >> > >> Abstract: > >> This document defines the 608 (Rejected) SIP response code. This > >> response code enables calling parties to learn that an = intermediary > >> rejected their call attempt. The call will not be answered. As a > >> 6xx code, the caller will be aware that future attempts to contact > >> the same UAS will likely fail. The present use case driving the = need > >> for the 608 response code is when the intermediary is an analytics > >> engine. In this case, the rejection is by a machine or other > >> process. This contrasts with the 607 (Unwanted) SIP response = code, > >> which a human at the target UAS indicated the call was not wanted. > >> In some jurisdictions this distinction is important. This = document > >> also defines the use of the Call-Info header in 608 responses to > >> enable rejected callers to contact entities that blocked their = calls > >> in error. This provides a remediation mechanism for legal callers > >> that find their calls blocked. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org = . > >> > >> The IETF Secretariat > >> > > >=20 >=20 >=20 > Notice: This e-mail together with any attachments may contain = information of Ribbon Communications Inc. that is confidential and/or = proprietary for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, = disclosure, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without = express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended = recipient, please notify the sender immediately and then delete all = copies, including any attachments. > _______________________________________________ > stir mailing list > stir@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir = --Apple-Mail=_E11A8F21-8812-49BA-99E9-DC99C565673E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I = might have been thinking of the US situation = where it is likely to be the terminating provider providing the blocking = service. In the US, it=E2=80=99s trivial to look up the terminating = provider from the number. For a carrier, its the LERG and NPAC. For a = consumer, there are tons of free Web directories.

If there is a central phone number to = call in a country for remediation, there=E2=80=99s no need for = Call-Info, because presumably the callers will know the central phone = number to call.

On Feb 4, 2019, at 5:32 PM, = Asveren, Tolga <tasveren@rbbn.com> wrote:

 
Looks = good to me with a single comment:
 
=E2=80=9CSince the decision of whether = to include Call-Info in the 608
   response is a matter of = policy, one thing to consider is whether a
   legitimate caller can = ascertain whom to contact without such
   information being included = in the 608.  For example, in some
   jurisdictions, if the = terminating service provider is the
   intermediary, the caller = can lookup who the terminating service
   provider is based on the = routing information for the dialled number.
   As such, the Call-Info jCard could be redundant = information.
   However, the factors going into a particular = service provider's or
   jourisdiction's choice of whether or not to = include Call-Info is
   outside the scope of this document.=E2=80=9D
 
 
The = example confused me. How would the caller know that the intermediary is = the terminating network? How would caller know which number to call? The = use case of potentially not including Call-Info/jCard I had in mind = was:
  • Caller calls his own operator, which follows up = the issue on his behalf
  • There is a single, nation-wide = number for the caller to contact (and that may be provided to caller = party)
 
Thanks,
Tolga
 
 
 
1. Addressed /most/ of Tolga's nits. I decided to leave = =E2=80=98intermediary=E2=80=99 as is. If the WG disagrees, I won=E2=80=99t= fall on my sword for it and will do a global substitution.
 
2. Fixed = some unclear language Bhavik found when implementing the draft.
 
3. BTW, = that means we have an open-source prototype at https://github.com/nagdab/608_Implementation
 
I think = we=E2=80=99re done. What do *you* think?
 
- Eric
 
>> On Feb 3, 2019, at 2:50 = PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> = A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-sipcore-rejected-03.txt
>> = has been successfully submitted by Eric W. Burger and posted to the
>> = IETF repository.
>> 
>> = Name:           &nb= sp;            = ;    draft-ietf-sipcore-rejected
>> = Revision:        03
>> = Title:           &n= bsp;           &nbs= p;        A Session Initiation = Protocol (SIP) Response Code for Rejected Calls
>> = Document date:         = 2019-02-03
>> = Group:           &n= bsp;           &nbs= p;    sipcore
>> = Pages:           &n= bsp;           &nbs= p;     22
>> = URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sipcore-rejecte= d-03.txt
>> = Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sipcore-rejected-03<= o:p class=3D"">
>> = Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-sipcore-reject= ed
>> 
>> = Abstract:
>>  This document defines the 608 (Rejected) SIP = response code.  This
>>  response code enables calling parties to learn = that an intermediary
>>  rejected their call attempt.  The call = will not be answered.  As a
>>  6xx code, the caller = will be aware that future attempts to contact
>>  the same UAS will likely fail.  The = present use case driving the need
>>  for the 608 response = code is when the intermediary is an analytics
>>  engine.  In this case, the rejection is = by a machine or other
>>  process.  This contrasts with the 607 = (Unwanted) SIP response code,
>>  which a human at the = target UAS indicated the call was not wanted.
>>  In some jurisdictions this distinction is = important.  This document
>>  also defines the use of = the Call-Info header in 608 responses to
>>  enable rejected callers = to contact entities that blocked their calls
>>  in error.  This provides a remediation = mechanism for legal callers
>>  that find their calls = blocked.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> = Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission
>> until the htmlized version and diff are available = at tools.ietf.org.
>> 
>> = The IETF Secretariat
>> 
> 
 


Notice: This e-mail = together with any attachments may contain information of Ribbon = Communications Inc. that is confidential and/or proprietary for the sole = use of the intended recipient. Any review, disclosure, reliance or = distribution by others or forwarding without express permission is = strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please = notify the sender immediately and then delete all copies, including any = attachments.
_______________________________________________
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d=standardstrack.com; s=default; h=References:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:Date:Subject: Mime-Version:Content-Type:Message-Id:From:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=CAeKCPLbeQdllyUWP5mG1+VCuUGNH7hEZEhDxLS2K0g=; b=O932EsjngHHZGNHMVxdwFo4XY g9glCEa94piK+v3VPy+xG2WoVi5+PZtq/seu73ex+mi7Mq3m3BWVMbJAp6e2VAf//11Ldi4yFI/s/ nE/+E/Vlco6RGOwBcxsxEol9jP/j83lvqn7EuB4zjX5v3tIOQYsplD8ZUphnZUiwyRzZc=; Received: from [68.100.196.217] (port=63318 helo=[192.168.10.26]) by biz221.inmotionhosting.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.91) (envelope-from ) id 1grDc7-00EhQ0-TG; Tue, 05 Feb 2019 19:11:12 -0800 From: Eric Burger Message-Id: <62A4B3FC-03A6-40C0-BA98-DE2C5C467FAD@standardstrack.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7296762C-3AA1-47BA-B89D-D35C46AC2160"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2019 22:11:01 -0500 In-Reply-To: Cc: "stir@ietf.org Mail List" To: "Asveren, Tolga" References: <1BD3FE9C-E20C-475D-A347-769753EC10AB@standardstrack.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=2.5 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - biz221.inmotionhosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - standardstrack.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: biz221.inmotionhosting.com: authenticated_id: eburger+standardstrack.com/only user confirmed/virtual account not confirmed X-Authenticated-Sender: biz221.inmotionhosting.com: eburger@standardstrack.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Archived-At: Subject: Re: [stir] [sipcore] New Version Notification for draft-ietf-sipcore-rejected-03.txt X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2019 03:11:14 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_7296762C-3AA1-47BA-B89D-D35C46AC2160 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C847240A-2474-4CC3-985D-321D6FB211B7" --Apple-Mail=_C847240A-2474-4CC3-985D-321D6FB211B7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Is there any country in the world thinking of the approach of a central = clearinghouse for robocall remediation? That sounds like a formula for a = DoS target. > On Feb 5, 2019, at 3:39 AM, Asveren, Tolga wrote: >=20 > =E2=80=9CI might have been thinking of the US situation where it is = likely to be the terminating provider providing the blocking service. In = the US, it=E2=80=99s trivial to look up the terminating provider from = the number. For a carrier, its the LERG and NPAC. For a consumer, there = are tons of free Web directories.=E2=80=9D > Yes, technically definitely possible. I just think of the practical = aspects. It is even cumbersome to deal with one=E2=80=99s own operator = let alone a 3rd party. >=20 > =E2=80=9CIf there is a central phone number to call in a country for = remediation, there=E2=80=99s no need for Call-Info, because presumably = the callers will know the central phone number to call.=E2=80=9D > Exactly, and I would think this is not something unlikely. >=20 > Nonetheless, I think what matters is that it is spelled out clearly = that Call-Info may be omitted. I just would prefer that the =E2=80=9Ccentr= al number=E2=80=9D option is cited as well. >=20 > Thanks, > Tolga >=20 > From: Eric Burger > > Sent: Monday, February 4, 2019 6:53 PM > To: Asveren, Tolga > > Cc: stir@ietf.org Mail List > > Subject: Re: [stir] [sipcore] New Version Notification for = draft-ietf-sipcore-rejected-03.txt >=20 > I might have been thinking of the US situation where it is likely to = be the terminating provider providing the blocking service. In the US, = it=E2=80=99s trivial to look up the terminating provider from the = number. For a carrier, its the LERG and NPAC. For a consumer, there are = tons of free Web directories. >=20 > If there is a central phone number to call in a country for = remediation, there=E2=80=99s no need for Call-Info, because presumably = the callers will know the central phone number to call. >=20 >=20 > On Feb 4, 2019, at 5:32 PM, Asveren, Tolga > wrote: >=20 >=20 > Looks good to me with a single comment: >=20 > =E2=80=9CSince the decision of whether to include Call-Info in the 608 > response is a matter of policy, one thing to consider is whether a > legitimate caller can ascertain whom to contact without such > information being included in the 608. For example, in some > jurisdictions, if the terminating service provider is the > intermediary, the caller can lookup who the terminating service > provider is based on the routing information for the dialled = number. > As such, the Call-Info jCard could be redundant information. > However, the factors going into a particular service provider's or > jourisdiction's choice of whether or not to include Call-Info is > outside the scope of this document.=E2=80=9D >=20 >=20 > The example confused me. How would the caller know that the = intermediary is the terminating network? How would caller know which = number to call? The use case of potentially not including = Call-Info/jCard I had in mind was: > Caller calls his own operator, which follows up the issue on his = behalf > There is a single, nation-wide number for the caller to contact (and = that may be provided to caller party) >=20 > Thanks, > Tolga >=20 >=20 >=20 > 1. Addressed /most/ of Tolga's nits. I decided to leave = =E2=80=98intermediary=E2=80=99 as is. If the WG disagrees, I won=E2=80=99t= fall on my sword for it and will do a global substitution. >=20 > 2. Fixed some unclear language Bhavik found when implementing the = draft. >=20 > 3. BTW, that means we have an open-source prototype at = https://github.com/nagdab/608_Implementation = >=20 > I think we=E2=80=99re done. What do *you* think? >=20 > - Eric >=20 > >> On Feb 3, 2019, at 2:50 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org = wrote: > >> > >> > >> A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-sipcore-rejected-03.txt > >> has been successfully submitted by Eric W. Burger and posted to the > >> IETF repository. > >> > >> Name: draft-ietf-sipcore-rejected > >> Revision: 03 > >> Title: A Session Initiation Protocol = (SIP) Response Code for Rejected Calls > >> Document date: 2019-02-03 > >> Group: sipcore > >> Pages: 22 > >> URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sipcore-rejected-03.txt = > >> Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sipcore-rejected/ = > >> Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sipcore-rejected-03 = > >> Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-sipcore-rejected = > >> Diff: = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-sipcore-rejected-03 = > >> > >> Abstract: > >> This document defines the 608 (Rejected) SIP response code. This > >> response code enables calling parties to learn that an = intermediary > >> rejected their call attempt. The call will not be answered. As a > >> 6xx code, the caller will be aware that future attempts to contact > >> the same UAS will likely fail. The present use case driving the = need > >> for the 608 response code is when the intermediary is an analytics > >> engine. In this case, the rejection is by a machine or other > >> process. This contrasts with the 607 (Unwanted) SIP response = code, > >> which a human at the target UAS indicated the call was not wanted. > >> In some jurisdictions this distinction is important. This = document > >> also defines the use of the Call-Info header in 608 responses to > >> enable rejected callers to contact entities that blocked their = calls > >> in error. This provides a remediation mechanism for legal callers > >> that find their calls blocked. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org = . > >> > >> The IETF Secretariat > >> > > >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Notice: This e-mail together with any attachments may contain = information of Ribbon Communications Inc. that is confidential and/or = proprietary for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, = disclosure, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without = express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended = recipient, please notify the sender immediately and then delete all = copies, including any attachments. > _______________________________________________ > stir mailing list > stir@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir = --Apple-Mail=_C847240A-2474-4CC3-985D-321D6FB211B7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Is = there any country in the world thinking of the approach of a central = clearinghouse for robocall remediation? That sounds like a formula for a = DoS target.

On Feb 5, 2019, at 3:39 AM, Asveren, Tolga = <tasveren@rbbn.com> wrote:

=E2=80=9CI<= span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> might have been thinking of the US situation where = it is likely to be the terminating provider providing the blocking = service. In the US, it=E2=80=99s trivial to look up the terminating = provider from the number. For a carrier, its the LERG and NPAC. For a = consumer, there are tons of free Web directories.=E2=80=9D
Yes, = technically definitely possible. I just think of the practical aspects. = It is even cumbersome to deal with one=E2=80=99s own operator let alone = a 3rd party.
 
=E2=80=9CIf= there is a central phone number to call in a country for remediation, = there=E2=80=99s no need for Call-Info, because presumably the callers = will know the central phone number to call.=E2=80=9D
Exactly, = and I would think this is not something unlikely.
 
Nonetheless, I think what matters is that it is spelled out = clearly that Call-Info may be omitted. I just would prefer that the = =E2=80=9Ccentral number=E2=80=9D option is cited as well.
 
Thanks,
Tolga
 
From: Eric Burger <eburger@standardstrack.com> 
Sent: Monday, February 4, 2019 = 6:53 PM
To: Asveren, Tolga <tasveren@rbbn.com>
Cc: stir@ietf.org Mail List <stir@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [stir] [sipcore] New = Version Notification for draft-ietf-sipcore-rejected-03.txt
 
I might have been thinking of the US situation where = it is likely to be the terminating provider providing the blocking = service. In the US, it=E2=80=99s trivial to look up the terminating = provider from the number. For a carrier, its the LERG and NPAC. For a = consumer, there are tons of free Web directories.
 
If there is a central phone number to = call in a country for remediation, there=E2=80=99s no need for = Call-Info, because presumably the callers will know the central phone = number to call.


On Feb 4, 2019, at 5:32 PM, Asveren, Tolga <tasveren@rbbn.com> = wrote:
 
 
Looks good to me with a single comment:
 
=E2=80=9CSince the decision of whether = to include Call-Info in the 608
   response is a = matter of policy, one thing to consider is whether a
   legitimate caller can ascertain whom to contact = without such
   information being included = in the 608.  For example, in some
   jurisdictions, if the terminating service = provider is the
   intermediary, the caller = can lookup who the terminating service
   provider is based on the routing information for = the dialled number.
   As such, the Call-Info = jCard could be redundant information.
   However, the factors going into a particular = service provider's or
   = jourisdiction's choice of whether or not to include Call-Info is
   outside the scope of this document.=E2=80=9D
 
 
The example confused me. How would the caller know that the = intermediary is the terminating network? How would caller know which = number to call? The use case of potentially not including = Call-Info/jCard I had in mind was:
  • Caller = calls his own operator, which follows up the issue on his behalf
  • There is a single, nation-wide number for the caller to = contact (and that may be provided to caller party)
 
Thanks,
Tolga
 
 
 
1. Addressed /most/ of Tolga's nits. I decided to leave = =E2=80=98intermediary=E2=80=99 as is. If the WG disagrees, I won=E2=80=99t= fall on my sword for it and will do a global substitution.
 
2. Fixed some unclear language Bhavik = found when implementing the draft.
 
3. BTW, that means we have an open-source prototype at https://github.com/nagdab/608_Implementation
 
I think we=E2=80=99re done. What do = *you* think?
 
- Eric
 
>> On Feb 3, 2019, at 2:50 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> A new version of I-D, = draft-ietf-sipcore-rejected-03.txt
>> has been = successfully submitted by Eric W. Burger and posted to the
>> IETF repository.
>> 
>> = Name:           &nb= sp;            = ;    draft-ietf-sipcore-rejected
>> Revision:        = 03
>> = Title:           &n= bsp;           &nbs= p;        A Session Initiation = Protocol (SIP) Response Code for Rejected Calls
>> Document = date:         2019-02-03
>> = Group:           &n= bsp;           &nbs= p;    sipcore
>> = Pages:           &n= bsp;           &nbs= p;     22
>> = URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-sipcore-rejecte= d-03.txt
>> = Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sipcore-rejected/
>> = Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sipcore-rejected-03
>> = Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-sipcore-reject= ed
>> = Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-sipcore-rejected= -03
>> 
>> Abstract:
>>  This = document defines the 608 (Rejected) SIP response code.  This
>>  response code enables calling parties to learn = that an intermediary
>>  rejected their call = attempt.  The call will not be answered.  As a
>>  6xx code, the caller will be aware that future = attempts to contact
>>  the same UAS will likely = fail.  The present use case driving the need
>>  for the 608 response code is when the = intermediary is an analytics
>>  = engine.  In this case, the rejection is by a machine or other
>>  process.  This contrasts with the 607 = (Unwanted) SIP response code,
>>  which a = human at the target UAS indicated the call was not wanted.
>>  In some jurisdictions this distinction is = important.  This document
>>  also = defines the use of the Call-Info header in 608 responses to
>>  enable rejected callers to contact entities = that blocked their calls
>>  in = error.  This provides a remediation mechanism for legal callers
>>  that find their calls blocked.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes = from the time of submission
>> until the = htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>> 
>> The IETF Secretariat
>> 
> 
 



Notice: This e-mail together with any attachments may contain = information of Ribbon Communications Inc. that is confidential and/or = proprietary for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, = disclosure, reliance or distribution by others or forwarding without = express permission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended = recipient, please notify the sender immediately and then delete all = copies, including any attachments.
_______________________________________________
stir mailing list
stir@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir

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X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.91.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <154999372624.8232.15515673849852810129.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 09:48:46 -0800 From: IETF Secretariat Archived-At: Subject: [stir] Milestones changed for stir WG X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 17:48:46 -0000 Changed milestone "Submit PASSPorT SHAKEN extension for publication as Proposed Standard", resolved as "Done". Changed milestone "Submit PASSPorT extension for diverted calls as Proposed Standard", set due date to April 2019 from September 2018. Changed milestone "Submit out-of-band architecture and use-cases for Informational", set due date to July 2019 from November 2018. Changed milestone "Submit PASSPorT Extension for rich call data for publication as Proposed Standard", set due date to November 2019 from December 2018. Changed milestone "Submit Privacy analysis for Informational", set due date to March 2020 from March 2019. URL: https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/stir/about/ From nobody Tue Feb 19 13:57:54 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: stir@ietf.org Delivered-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCFE0130FBB; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 13:57:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: stir@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.91.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: stir@ietf.org Message-ID: <155061346581.20620.16849840835484562717@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 13:57:45 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [stir] I-D Action: draft-ietf-stir-passport-rcd-02.txt X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 21:57:46 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Secure Telephone Identity Revisited WG of the IETF. Title : PASSporT Extension for Rich Call Data Authors : Jon Peterson Chris Wendt Filename : draft-ietf-stir-passport-rcd-02.txt Pages : 15 Date : 2019-02-19 Abstract: This document extends PASSporT, a token for conveying cryptographically-signed information about personal communications, to include rich data that can be rendered to users, such as a human- readable display name comparable to the "Caller ID" function common on the telephone network. The element defined for this purpose is extensible to include related information about calls that helps people decide whether to pick up the phone. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-stir-passport-rcd/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-stir-passport-rcd-02 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-stir-passport-rcd-02 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-stir-passport-rcd-02 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Feb 19 13:58:59 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: stir@ietf.org Delivered-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E438130E8B; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 13:58:51 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: stir@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.91.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: stir@ietf.org Message-ID: <155061353101.20817.17023340929300846285@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 13:58:51 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [stir] I-D Action: draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-05.txt X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 21:58:51 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Secure Telephone Identity Revisited WG of the IETF. Title : PASSporT Extension for Diverted Calls Author : Jon Peterson Filename : draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-05.txt Pages : 16 Date : 2019-02-19 Abstract: This document extends PASSporT, which conveys cryptographically- signed information about the people involved in personal communications, to include an indication that a call has been diverted from its original destination to a new one. This information can greatly improve the decisions made by verification services in call forwarding scenarios. Also specified here is an encapsulation mechanism for nesting a PASSporT within another PASSporT that assists relying parties in some diversion scenarios. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-05 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-05 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert-05 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Feb 19 14:31:40 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39AB8130FCE for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 14:31:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=chriswendt-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BImSRqTu5eKE for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 14:31:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-it1-x136.google.com (mail-it1-x136.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1E134130FDF for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 14:31:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-it1-x136.google.com with SMTP id i2so10419248ite.5 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 14:31:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=chriswendt-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:date:references :to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=8yc0dC4tfn5R1Uu59euPR3RY5bxgel/wC5PrDmPLj+I=; b=xiLpCashL11sw/LlSOUZgJDlm95XPB9LdbbPZ/+6V3yQkVkXL3iyzBBTHDgPaCxjd8 +071h6bWJT9S4NABy8xkGzymQJIbj9GsC3li2KU35ltNHuw2uyN/rtdNzHtGX4FmKtch N5Jy7C+c2fORWH4un6OeScHquv0dH95ZMvSAPjiGvUh9f+AR5Bfgi7O1CxPYWlCztMmL 6hLr2XDxaZiR6ovB9gtrY6hHL7uHhSjOgOWG2aZPd3qvU6wcaECsYnZlH1urIaOIigFs 1o0RGrmh/RgE79cwxRBj4c9lWizRfwKpd7AT8JXHzHTWuVzziZvFMG9VSZpC+9rs3Mdq iarA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=8yc0dC4tfn5R1Uu59euPR3RY5bxgel/wC5PrDmPLj+I=; b=qVTmz2KPggmQZTzZNm1Yu0cWsoFqJEKQF6OCZWDS1yu4Q1WuNu+MdbcGnntXHYpGkC ZB8jVGImOmlZBMP4Nbe4/bCBBGaseRoFaKPgGcOPgRF6UnGPNJ6tP4Wp6IU1usf0j/UU 4+3wktd3A+orwP0ShXaLdBzpzNQIzDChkcixD7d6eIegtFfZzasFFOtUqWP7rT293yme nTUpcV0yg+xOXqpREuqOd/2z9mqvxc3JLNXUccqYAwsG3jV/lmb3FMmGSg63hFnbpLLP 9BocPBCQ7xmq6AWgUVE1+hbtrmEYVNmgw08zwgTegdVmMjy1zGA/Vfcf16qghlL8J/uD YjIQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAua6KWqfCT6CVOOoz+5MmccGo5jRfWGNLNY/9wxwiod/AbRv2jjG NkuZsIyzJ9M6dIVCbF1PPl+RdX35ltI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IaZK5RAG9jpmGNh1tLY0nDBaEh0wmJ5R5dsin2mKoG+WJnV+lK4r0yLLHZD2Kwrw3PHf6hHzw== X-Received: by 2002:aca:e60b:: with SMTP id d11mr4187364oih.56.1550615495146; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 14:31:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [172.20.10.7] (245.sub-174-255-133.myvzw.com. [174.255.133.245]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x4sm7260144otk.37.2019.02.19.14.31.34 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 19 Feb 2019 14:31:34 -0800 (PST) From: Chris Wendt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 16:31:33 -0600 References: <155061346581.20620.16849840835484562717@ietfa.amsl.com> To: "stir@ietf.org Mail List" In-Reply-To: <155061346581.20620.16849840835484562717@ietfa.amsl.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [stir] I-D Action: draft-ietf-stir-passport-rcd-02.txt X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 22:31:38 -0000 Hi All, We have updated the rcd draft to include some of the items discussed at = last meeting regarding use of jcard and URLs to jcards primarily with a = few other assorted improvements to the text. Please review and provide = comments. Thanks. -Chris > On Feb 19, 2019, at 3:57 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts = directories. > This draft is a work item of the Secure Telephone Identity Revisited = WG of the IETF. >=20 > Title : PASSporT Extension for Rich Call Data > Authors : Jon Peterson > Chris Wendt > Filename : draft-ietf-stir-passport-rcd-02.txt > Pages : 15 > Date : 2019-02-19 >=20 > Abstract: > This document extends PASSporT, a token for conveying > cryptographically-signed information about personal communications, > to include rich data that can be rendered to users, such as a human- > readable display name comparable to the "Caller ID" function common > on the telephone network. The element defined for this purpose is > extensible to include related information about calls that helps > people decide whether to pick up the phone. >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-stir-passport-rcd/ >=20 > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-stir-passport-rcd-02 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-stir-passport-rcd-02 >=20 > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-stir-passport-rcd-02 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > stir mailing list > stir@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir From 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IGF2YWlsYWJsZSBieSBhbm9ueW1vdXMgRlRQIGF0Og0KICAgIGZ0cDovL2Z0cC5pZXRmLm9yZy9p bnRlcm5ldC1kcmFmdHMvDQogICAgDQogICAgX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCiAgICBzdGlyIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KICAgIHN0aXJAaWV0Zi5v cmcNCiAgICBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3N0aXINCiAgICAN Cg0K From nobody Wed Feb 20 07:22:05 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96FFF130E6D for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2019 07:22:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j0DvSdIpl-tC for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2019 07:21:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 46796130E63 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2019 07:21:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BADD300AAB for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2019 10:03:41 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id Y_Q6JZnm5z27 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2019 10:03:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from a860b60074bd.fios-router.home (pool-108-45-137-105.washdc.fios.verizon.net [108.45.137.105]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 220633002B4; Wed, 20 Feb 2019 10:03:40 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) From: Russ Housley In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 10:21:56 -0500 Cc: IETF STIR Mail List Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5C9A5363-9B2B-4D0B-AB44-F7ACAF787133@vigilsec.com> References: <155061346581.20620.16849840835484562717@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Chris Wendt X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [stir] I-D Action: draft-ietf-stir-passport-rcd-02.txt X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 15:22:04 -0000 Thanks Chris. I expected Section 3.1 to say something about the number of times that = 'nam' can appear in the JSON object. Russ > On Feb 19, 2019, at 5:31 PM, Chris Wendt = wrote: >=20 > Hi All, >=20 > We have updated the rcd draft to include some of the items discussed = at last meeting regarding use of jcard and URLs to jcards primarily with = a few other assorted improvements to the text. Please review and = provide comments. Thanks. >=20 > -Chris >=20 >> On Feb 19, 2019, at 3:57 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts = directories. >> This draft is a work item of the Secure Telephone Identity Revisited = WG of the IETF. >>=20 >> Title : PASSporT Extension for Rich Call Data >> Authors : Jon Peterson >> Chris Wendt >> Filename : draft-ietf-stir-passport-rcd-02.txt >> Pages : 15 >> Date : 2019-02-19 >>=20 >> Abstract: >> This document extends PASSporT, a token for conveying >> cryptographically-signed information about personal communications, >> to include rich data that can be rendered to users, such as a human- >> readable display name comparable to the "Caller ID" function common >> on the telephone network. The element defined for this purpose is >> extensible to include related information about calls that helps >> people decide whether to pick up the phone. >>=20 >>=20 >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-stir-passport-rcd/ >>=20 >> There are also htmlized versions available at: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-stir-passport-rcd-02 >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-stir-passport-rcd-02 >>=20 >> A diff from the previous version is available at: >> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-stir-passport-rcd-02 >>=20 >>=20 >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >>=20 >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> stir mailing list >> stir@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir >=20 > _______________________________________________ > stir mailing list > stir@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir From nobody Thu Feb 21 14:24:02 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7372131245 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:24:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.98 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.98 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yUnCMGOMIPOd for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:23:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C1BBD12D4E7 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:23:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from MacBook-Pro.roach.at (99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x1LMNuTD067146 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 21 Feb 2019 16:23:58 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1550787838; bh=mTXOekVDZJM52zfwUdBt4YP4tUAKKDSQ19Ahdcug6ic=; h=To:Cc:From:Subject:Date; b=OoReAoB+aoSKrLn12bXdjEvSYxVL6JUc9+QVhhxk6p/8DCiy0a3CXDKjWVXWARydQ JyGbTcHmvDqo6WdUwtshB/XNxn8skQ/z+yywanowK5zz4oc54X4QjrDQ5+jfvhXif2 G/vfbaWqINraZz1Lo4KJW8PM3MDsz8V5XBrEVcb0= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228] claimed to be MacBook-Pro.roach.at To: draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken.all@tools.ietf.org Cc: "stir@ietf.org" From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <17d7e50b-5012-74ec-d1a5-9c8b80d60f4e@nostrum.com> Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 16:23:51 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [stir] Getting PASSPORT Published X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 22:24:01 -0000 [as area director] tl;dr: I'd like to propose publishing SHAKEN as Informational instead of Standards Track, and tweaking the Privacy Considerations section. Details below. The draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken document still has a DISCUSS remaining on it from IESG evaluation: > I would like to discuss the privacy properties of origids. As I read > this text, it does not actually require them to be unlinkable or that > it not be possible to determine whether two ids represent the same > person behind the origid generator, and I believe it should do so. > Practically implementing that may require an ID that is longer than a > UUID. While it's true that this behavior is defined in the ATIS document, publication of an IETF Proposed Standard carries with it the explicit indication that the IETF as a whole (including the IESG during their evaluation) thinks the approach being described is a Good Idea. In this particular case, the fact that the underlying mechanism does not inherently provide unlinkability for the underlying identifiers has been identified as problematic. At the same time, I'll note that the primary reason for this document to exist is to populate two IANA registries. Both of these registries are "Specification Required," which doesn't require the publication of a Standards Track document. An acceptable path to address this situation would be to instead publish draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken as Informational, and to tighten up the privacy considerations slightly. I believe this could be achieved with a small change to the final sentence of section 10; we would replace: >    If the operator of an element is concerned about the >    correlation of 'origid' values, the element could be configured to >    use a unique 'origid' value per call in such a way that the operator >    can associate those 'origid' values to the correct element when doing >    lookups in their backend systems. With: >    Absent a compelling reason not to do so, operators should configure > their >    network elements to use a unique and externally unlinkable 'origid' > value >    per call in such a way that the operator can associate those 'origid' >    values to the correct element when doing lookups in their backend > systems. Does this sound like a reasonable path forward? /a From nobody Thu Feb 21 15:13:13 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E3CB129AA0 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 15:13:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1BVKqv_L9Jb8 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 15:13:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x12e.google.com (mail-lf1-x12e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F25C126C7E for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 15:13:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x12e.google.com with SMTP id q12so295850lfm.0 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 15:13:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=1/06zTaSxqeXOPQ7L7PrJAKZYqv3lzeUa2e7CAVQoiI=; b=WNIRhzcnTu9WZhj8t+AbIzlRTIXRbJhks4mq4L9Obn4t+gpb+RAaVQHQvLZhaNiwOb 3T5rqdJo7XusPoZ8ZOwlqUUrH+7XEwyXIzvE1DWNri/zAUETJppRw8PC4My96+SPusbg SQVCmfZqi7iYmgjrUP30CObUDh7KrD8FusKsDMQ8XOnFLO5HyUJiZizw5tRpiUoRjbvr 3UePNYbYvhjW2vzBsiPTHMakesQ0KNPX6TKHraodyb6P3OJu8jYQRgWP6R+mbmFTnzzg wSvK04Q5AQHdodFVy59u7y4YhKTvQVH3Rtz689qoIARx2oVV+PYIa7VdsT04bxQXg/7V Ukow== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=1/06zTaSxqeXOPQ7L7PrJAKZYqv3lzeUa2e7CAVQoiI=; b=hSDUFFiIflGeuT7crQJ87MKx6uTq8uPd0BwZ+Hd3eoxQI4Z4hnO/8pE1DzOMWC0nWx MCffl/nlAXtn52teiMjmmbdklBrYgnJLwe6eT6BTJdl4PaztRfrN2VYBpoSLGuYljkwD Yapo3n4fB2jlhE1bki8dQT5mLwQG9bS3JSYHVswWumn87EADWHySlbKiudFGsq+zPxGk l4tnpT2PBCWewg2pVeDQq7A9/fQgPMYVkoMt/SEzh9qO0Q2sIQYal1T2Iunu4AGng78x 5ATuLTH9+ez3rrgPZqKOmjZmo8+8RmlGjeJ/Iv2U30uTITITXdni4mJkC4DliAufAbux kaWw== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAubXlA++vWHnIH12gp+kLxGWqBDz3ARoeLv1nROnZFYQV9bCXaKW PiVBIm1rhN+09fdoggXPnpB4eDJgeGSKi2PGYCI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IaHPtFDNKbawvu/Q/syGsmj3je0XyiH939SG5c8KPTMjcFA8Jr87un+TyD9+Y57SCkBMnnVPrtJU53PC77zM7Y= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9b41:: with SMTP id o1mr498228ljj.103.1550790786558; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 15:13:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <17d7e50b-5012-74ec-d1a5-9c8b80d60f4e@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <17d7e50b-5012-74ec-d1a5-9c8b80d60f4e@nostrum.com> From: Mary Barnes Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 17:12:55 -0600 Message-ID: To: Adam Roach Cc: draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken.all@tools.ietf.org, "stir@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f430f805826f9dd3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [stir] Getting PASSPORT Published X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 23:13:12 -0000 --000000000000f430f805826f9dd3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I personally don't see it adds any value to make the proposed change given that you're proposing to change the status of the draft to Informational (which I'm fine with). We've had this discussion many, many times with one of those threads triggering this draft: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-peterson-informational-normativity-01 We could start it again, if you don't agree with what that draft says - that will give us a good topic for open mic discussions at the plenary next month ;) I also thought IESG had published a statement on this, but I can only find the one with regards to the references and not the terms: https://www.ietf.org/blog/iesg-statement-normative-and-informative-references/ . In my view, what we have now is sufficient given the change in status. The document highlights a potential privacy concern and suggests how it could be addressed by service providers that deem it to be a concern. Regards, Mary On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 4:24 PM Adam Roach wrote: > [as area director] > > tl;dr: I'd like to propose publishing SHAKEN as Informational instead of > Standards Track, and tweaking the Privacy Considerations section. > Details below. > > > The draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken document still has a DISCUSS > remaining on it from IESG evaluation: > > > I would like to discuss the privacy properties of origids. As I read > > this text, it does not actually require them to be unlinkable or that > > it not be possible to determine whether two ids represent the same > > person behind the origid generator, and I believe it should do so. > > Practically implementing that may require an ID that is longer than a > > UUID. > > > While it's true that this behavior is defined in the ATIS document, > publication of an IETF Proposed Standard carries with it the explicit > indication that the IETF as a whole (including the IESG during their > evaluation) thinks the approach being described is a Good Idea. In this > particular case, the fact that the underlying mechanism does not > inherently provide unlinkability for the underlying identifiers has been > identified as problematic. > > At the same time, I'll note that the primary reason for this document to > exist is to populate two IANA registries. Both of these registries are > "Specification Required," which doesn't require the publication of a > Standards Track document. > > An acceptable path to address this situation would be to instead publish > draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken as Informational, and to tighten up the > privacy considerations slightly. I believe this could be achieved with a > small change to the final sentence of section 10; we would replace: > > > If the operator of an element is concerned about the > > correlation of 'origid' values, the element could be configured to > > use a unique 'origid' value per call in such a way that the operator > > can associate those 'origid' values to the correct element when doing > > lookups in their backend systems. > > With: > > > Absent a compelling reason not to do so, operators should configure > > their > > network elements to use a unique and externally unlinkable 'origid' > > value > > per call in such a way that the operator can associate those 'origid' > > values to the correct element when doing lookups in their backend > > systems. > > > Does this sound like a reasonable path forward? > > /a > > _______________________________________________ > stir mailing list > stir@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir > --000000000000f430f805826f9dd3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I perso= nally don't see it adds any value to make the proposed change given tha= t you're proposing to change the status of the draft to Informational (= which I'm fine with).=C2=A0 We've had this discussion many, many ti= mes with one of those threads triggering this draft:=C2=A0 https:/= /tools.ietf.org/html/draft-peterson-informational-normativity-01=C2=A0 = =C2=A0We could start it again, if you don't agree with what that draft = says - that will give us a good topic for open mic discussions at the plena= ry next month ;)=C2=A0

I a= lso thought IESG had published a statement on this, but I can only find the= one with regards to the references and not the terms:=C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/blog/iesg-statement-normative-and-informative-refere= nces/.=C2=A0=C2=A0

In = my view, what we have now is sufficient given the change in status.=C2=A0 T= he=C2=A0document highlights a potential privacy concern and suggests how it= could be addressed by service providers that deem it to be a concern.=C2= =A0=C2=A0

Regards,
Mary

On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 4:24 PM Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com> wrote:
[as area director]

tl;dr: I'd like to propose publishing SHAKEN as Informational instead o= f
Standards Track, and tweaking the Privacy Considerations section.
Details below.


The draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken document still has a DISCUSS
remaining on it from IESG evaluation:

> I would like to discuss the privacy properties of origids. As I read > this text, it does not actually require them to be unlinkable or that<= br> > it not be possible to determine whether two ids represent the same
> person behind the origid generator, and I believe it should do so.
> Practically implementing that may require an ID that is longer than a<= br> > UUID.


While it's true that this behavior is defined in the ATIS document, publication of an IETF Proposed Standard carries with it the explicit
indication that the IETF as a whole (including the IESG during their
evaluation) thinks the approach being described is a Good Idea. In this particular case, the fact that the underlying mechanism does not
inherently provide unlinkability for the underlying identifiers has been identified as problematic.

At the same time, I'll note that the primary reason for this document t= o
exist is to populate two IANA registries. Both of these registries are
"Specification Required," which doesn't require the publicati= on of a
Standards Track document.

An acceptable path to address this situation would be to instead publish draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken as Informational, and to tighten up the privacy considerations slightly. I believe this could be achieved with a small change to the final sentence of section 10; we would replace:

> =C2=A0=C2=A0 If the operator of an element is concerned about the
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 correlation of 'origid' values, the element could= be configured to
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 use a unique 'origid' value per call in such a wa= y that the operator
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 can associate those 'origid' values to the correc= t element when doing
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 lookups in their backend systems.

With:

> =C2=A0=C2=A0 Absent a compelling reason not to do so, operators should= configure
> their
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 network elements to use a unique and externally unlinkabl= e 'origid'
> value
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 per call in such a way that the operator can associate th= ose 'origid'
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 values to the correct element when doing lookups in their= backend
> systems.


Does this sound like a reasonable path forward?

/a

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stir@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir
--000000000000f430f805826f9dd3-- From nobody Thu Feb 21 15:52:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B07B4130EED for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 15:52:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.679 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.679 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vDD_E_31W13f for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 15:52:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8D747130E0A for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 15:52:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.29] (cpe-70-122-203-106.tx.res.rr.com [70.122.203.106]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x1LNqpfG081452 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 21 Feb 2019 17:52:52 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1550793173; bh=rsjew16xIvvzR6gK6mvZhGNpm7CuACvaANZScgCtPd8=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=CDSNsBP3Ij/A9IcrdESOHwHQRTDKaH3bOU90POFcDPXqkySp12QaXQ3mbQjoJ/nOi bVqhKR7JwdYEGkWbJfy2ZyjX+ymGE2qE+4ufxiPoXwGfq3zDQYcq4OTu69jHiPvQdF 6aQztjUdbhqYBoQ4Vwt5JdfLL1Yba6JuZO3+6WqQ= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host cpe-70-122-203-106.tx.res.rr.com [70.122.203.106] claimed to be [10.0.1.29] From: Ben Campbell Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1F136F91-1990-4F3C-ABD5-78E0B4366F52"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 17:52:49 -0600 In-Reply-To: Cc: Adam Roach , draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken.all@tools.ietf.org, "stir@ietf.org" To: Mary Barnes References: <17d7e50b-5012-74ec-d1a5-9c8b80d60f4e@nostrum.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [stir] Getting PASSPORT Published X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 23:52:57 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_1F136F91-1990-4F3C-ABD5-78E0B4366F52 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Mary, Is your argument that the original text is good enough for an = informational RFC, so there=E2=80=99s no need to improve it? Or that the = proposed new text does not improve it? Thanks! Ben. > On Feb 21, 2019, at 5:12 PM, Mary Barnes = wrote: >=20 > I personally don't see it adds any value to make the proposed change = given > that you're proposing to change the status of the draft to = Informational > (which I'm fine with). We've had this discussion many, many times = with one > of those threads triggering this draft: > = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-peterson-informational-normativity-01 > We could start it again, if you don't agree with what that draft says = - > that will give us a good topic for open mic discussions at the plenary = next > month ;) >=20 > I also thought IESG had published a statement on this, but I can only = find > the one with regards to the references and not the terms: > = https://www.ietf.org/blog/iesg-statement-normative-and-informative-referen= ces/ --Apple-Mail=_1F136F91-1990-4F3C-ABD5-78E0B4366F52 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEExW9rpd7ez4DexOFOgFZKbJXz1A0FAlxvOdEACgkQgFZKbJXz 1A3hxg/7Bz+GZWkj5DnU11F+2Zm4aIs1bd/GXaBYGdL+WtzLbAmmen4JOHxRWy5F CBzG7yl2RoIACWEDeFUcokhYgBbo7MtpeO2GgTPrVvLdEcycogy/Iv/ZqVKMBm5k RbHvnL5C8MwMQNdOaqeW9z7W7DqcNsK6sLswiCkDjkyGFHeif7ciK+F1EMvVh7XA bdoq9dkQjDGjDPXYNvPm4YH644j78VIAzHLS0SuzNCYCvMNz5eOjAt/iD0f+WDv5 DSN0g6+ZPqDXTwrg4M1kbXcpyMdOdAW5p7M/WdP6qdK2gNtpytPmJ5Y7TsnpYW5V M+uLBybd2JdaTcIBtofgx8bmVAT2svrJlR2HB8W6TvR/sHUWougqAjMa3YmXdcOW 70LKDk37sjlwIbEva5pR+lnCorqQAGRvUY9Qpt4XJU+Q1Q07iwRbtRrTBpolIcyj wQ/BEtFctckSkxcEwSYH5tNhCsQxjzEc9tXRQBLj8+LczPmF+68D7aN9UwVDhoeG NZe9ZMA5smW0OUuMsX0qYpfRJQ+RZgZVaWH+3qVvIXY09KJNFxheRL9x01Bg7GyI xhd6SkjAL8qXdfNB0VcwFlx/vQ8IdHP7f/F9m4uvyfXUa1M2KQA56eGPxnhmDpfD jKYqh0JGCPqg5veBEVVPcmsBr18D8al5fkVh6fm92QmhNBl9Pls= =oLfd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_1F136F91-1990-4F3C-ABD5-78E0B4366F52-- From nobody Thu Feb 21 15:54:50 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D365F1312B7 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 15:54:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.679 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.679 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GowcyWVlLjHp for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 15:54:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3C8B9130E0A for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 15:54:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from MacBook-Pro.roach.at (99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x1LNshQp081738 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 21 Feb 2019 17:54:45 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1550793285; bh=5L9HPWTiYBRHxae2xfK0UNQPOrHbMyrrUhoGJNVbTz4=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=IRZ+M9GYZmZVD9eVVA5/q+USDfy3dsaPkf9YmmaNJeaOg1OpbK4xYZ2ggMNZUrkx8 iGOF/B6z9Yc4MzK+38x4dV5gbeoPMdvsjvvKgPXzWEw9Gdzdjj5vh+nTEaseoNwvO6 giVSplhOYpO8NGlyN068btubWs0FYnC7iNMyBOTg= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228] claimed to be MacBook-Pro.roach.at To: Mary Barnes Cc: draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken.all@tools.ietf.org, "stir@ietf.org" , Eric Rescorla References: <17d7e50b-5012-74ec-d1a5-9c8b80d60f4e@nostrum.com> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <2c9679a8-9b2a-e122-5e05-353eaf7366a9@nostrum.com> Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 17:54:38 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [stir] Getting PASSPORT Published X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 23:54:49 -0000 On 2/21/19 5:12 PM, Mary Barnes wrote: > I personally don't see it adds any value to make the proposed change > given that you're proposing to change the status of the draft to > Informational (which I'm fine with). I'm not holding the position that the text needs to change -- that's coming from the DISCUSS holder. I mean, I don't think it's an unreasonable request, but it's not my decision to make. If you'd like to argue for no change, the person whose mind you need to change is EKR. I've copied him on this message. >   We've had this discussion many, many times with one of those threads > triggering this draft: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-peterson-informational-normativity-01 >  We could start it again, if you don't agree with what that draft says > - that will give us a good topic for open mic discussions at the > plenary next month ;) > > I also thought IESG had published a statement on this, but I can only > find the one with regards to the references and not the terms: > https://www.ietf.org/blog/iesg-statement-normative-and-informative-references/. Based on the two links above, I think you've confused two different concepts. One is the "Normative" versus "Informative" reference sections in a document, which is what both of the links pertain to. The other, which is only very loosely related, is the status of a published document (Proposed Standard, Best Current Practice, Informational, or Experimental). The change being proposed here is to the second thing, not the first thing. /a From nobody Thu Feb 21 19:37:52 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32701126D00 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 19:37:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id irWcBiAvlCfS for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 19:37:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x12b.google.com (mail-lf1-x12b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 403A91200ED for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 19:37:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x12b.google.com with SMTP id n15so676548lfe.5 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 19:37:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=qKd6DR2m7EZQpgoJNrktbePjc+A3wuxpz1+dQfFOGVo=; b=aT1CAmzrLxJPkGNX7sW9fTDwQSqd4NiAaI1VBoxuYVgGGTkKnUOF0rlcNP0fBG6ce0 8gkRi2y9cpFXweLqQr9ncAkLpbpauHD1+D6IxBwkvwg5+eQe/G0Fk7siWgBNXLxPQPHB V2YUabpYbBVcj++xZ7jYySA8jca6+fQMynMh4rxsHAzjptC6ka0+Joa5hetNFfYgyktd 2hc5idnaBAIiYvcjgpBwQ3kF2FQoqnmWzioZe9E8t6LOv0R4ZkI0Oq9Oey0vQxVIC989 D4iey8tmfrmKa6sX/R6VriWcYNFoAJFM8p6EigBISODpVmogCIrqPQpu7sLtk5cJrZ5a KdYw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qKd6DR2m7EZQpgoJNrktbePjc+A3wuxpz1+dQfFOGVo=; b=FKer9nAjTmJ3U1w6/aps1PkvhjhiXF/NptpRZMSXbxBI9Gqq/ovxgNJvskMttPA47U eVWtutUTsv5emGl+oH4VsA2rq02U6XO05+WDE7WeD5jJP0+gE4XbhPPqxsXBgSrtdyGU p9aCsjdlI92T2v+KaeCHyeviQASJy479ZC53BoN8EJi85CI7t6HWhMDzQloo06ahz7hg PlUTGc4h+ekEIKYnGzoI3pWnOlq0ApVpY2NspmrgwSLuczu9Exfs7WfuTEGt5LL0Iyyh /31EYb6k1Jw3icZG79SvadzRACPkO1tOY1M91nVgkEgziXuVQ4Bw/Kb/DixnCOoM0BoL +xHA== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuZOg8uvHjGSn6HDi115ti7hGZVg80e0G6P+Qv/IRVXHsBUaJKyV KtzVn8GnGHU/Y5iKlBaEhYl2s8uLBmEnMvIldR4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IavbZxKlzEek6aguIUBAb23OdUpNC67yM9al1430CHTjOcHGmt8gMGRJx6npuhS0cFU/78Brj8M/xBE61f6GUE= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:424e:: with SMTP id m14mr1008705lfl.4.1550806666041; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 19:37:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <17d7e50b-5012-74ec-d1a5-9c8b80d60f4e@nostrum.com> <2c9679a8-9b2a-e122-5e05-353eaf7366a9@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <2c9679a8-9b2a-e122-5e05-353eaf7366a9@nostrum.com> From: Mary Barnes Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 21:37:34 -0600 Message-ID: To: Adam Roach Cc: draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken.all@tools.ietf.org, "stir@ietf.org" , Eric Rescorla Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000071df360582735065" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [stir] Getting PASSPORT Published X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 03:37:51 -0000 --00000000000071df360582735065 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Responses inline below [MB] On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 5:54 PM Adam Roach wrote: > On 2/21/19 5:12 PM, Mary Barnes wrote: > > I personally don't see it adds any value to make the proposed change > > given that you're proposing to change the status of the draft to > > Informational (which I'm fine with). > > > I'm not holding the position that the text needs to change -- that's > coming from the DISCUSS holder. I mean, I don't think it's an > unreasonable request, but it's not my decision to make. If you'd like to > argue for no change, the person whose mind you need to change is EKR. > I've copied him on this message. > > [MB] I think Chris just forwarded a response that he had previously sent. [/MB] > > > We've had this discussion many, many times with one of those threads > > triggering this draft: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-peterson-informational-normativity-01 > > We could start it again, if you don't agree with what that draft says > > - that will give us a good topic for open mic discussions at the > > plenary next month ;) > > > > I also thought IESG had published a statement on this, but I can only > > find the one with regards to the references and not the terms: > > > https://www.ietf.org/blog/iesg-statement-normative-and-informative-references/ > . > > > Based on the two links above, I think you've confused two different > concepts. > > [MB] I'm not at all confused. Jon's document talks about both concepts. And, if you read my words, I had thought that IESG had a statement on both of those concepts, but it looks like it was only one (i.e., the normative reference). I thought maybe someone else might remember if the IESG had done one on the other concept. But, regardless, it's been a topic discussed at length. [/MB] > One is the "Normative" versus "Informative" reference sections in a > document, which is what both of the links pertain to. > > The other, which is only very loosely related, is the status of a > published document (Proposed Standard, Best Current Practice, > Informational, or Experimental). > > The change being proposed here is to the second thing, not the first thing. > [MB] Yes, I was fully aware of all of that per my comment above - maybe next time, give me the benefit of the doubt and ask a clarifying question before making an assumption that I'm the one that's confused. [/MB] > > /a > > --00000000000071df360582735065 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Responses inline below [MB]

On Thu, Feb 21= , 2019 at 5:54 PM Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com> wrote:
On 2/21/19 5:12 PM, Mary Barnes wrote:
> I personally don't see it adds any value to make the proposed chan= ge
> given that you're proposing to change the status of the draft to <= br> > Informational (which I'm fine with).


I'm not holding the position that the text needs to change -- that'= s
coming from the DISCUSS holder. I mean, I don't think it's an
unreasonable request, but it's not my decision to make. If you'd li= ke to
argue for no change, the person whose mind you need to change is EKR.
I've copied him on this message.

[MB] I think Chris just forwarded a response that he = had previously sent. [/MB]=C2=A0

> =C2=A0 We've had this discussion many, many times with one of thos= e threads
> triggering this draft:
> https://tools.ietf.org/h= tml/draft-peterson-informational-normativity-01
> =C2=A0We could start it again, if you don't agree with what that d= raft says
> - that will give us a good topic for open mic discussions at the
> plenary next month ;)
>
> I also thought IESG had published a statement on this, but I can only =
> find the one with regards to the references and not the terms:
> https://www.ietf.= org/blog/iesg-statement-normative-and-informative-references/.


Based on the two links above, I think you've confused two different concepts.

[MB] I'm not at all confused.=C2=A0 Jon's doc= ument talks about both concepts.=C2=A0 And, if you read my words,=C2=A0 I h= ad thought that IESG had a statement on both of those concepts, but it look= s like it was only one (i.e., the normative reference).=C2=A0 I thought may= be someone else might remember if the IESG had done one on the other concep= t.=C2=A0 But, regardless, it's been a topic discussed at length. [/MB]<= /div>
=C2=A0
One is the "Normative" versus "Informative" reference s= ections in a
document, which is what both of the links pertain to.

The other, which is only very loosely related, is the status of a
published document (Proposed Standard, Best Current Practice,
Informational, or Experimental).

The change being proposed here is to the second thing, not the first thing.=
[MB] Yes, I was fully aware of all of that per my com= ment above - maybe next time, give me the benefit of the doubt and ask a cl= arifying question before making an assumption that I'm the one that'= ;s confused. [/MB]

/a

--00000000000071df360582735065-- From nobody Thu Feb 21 19:45:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86AA312F295 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 19:45:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QlNya7xbIx01 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 19:45:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x232.google.com (mail-lj1-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3F9C9126D00 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 19:45:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x232.google.com with SMTP id q128so528681ljb.11 for ; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 19:45:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=eJMrb8J2vO5EagxOVw5AtbRzcpLBWx+85UnLpJa8l9Q=; b=N6Yz2BCnON972sgiIpudQwJX7bG3CYnWvOwrs74DOVbB6mGdivQfwuLCY3kb5el/T8 y5UycrmiHLMAYLrVA0/AJTxRBEnvQAYQGzSsZwuC/gUDgmVg1JHra+vw1NYjhPZ8e0Po v5+OYKiwpvWSTlNiJTQI+xWPimdWjTYRz4jaRhZEUolByxBoPaks75S38g1xS5ptyJDr nZxTRz0nNoHdoBTeg82M+lV6yehLZSG9wT1rLq1YMJZOk/OcGykZXY8mTZjtqh24w59I KMO1O4AdkozUEMjiHrYUIGpZKHLm2q05Kcj6pSFwPp/WARdZqLoz+S+i3GJL20knSste 7fxQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=eJMrb8J2vO5EagxOVw5AtbRzcpLBWx+85UnLpJa8l9Q=; b=CDLExtgx+QA3cipbq/TTAQjjbHL883S2EslJZcXzPdt+0dQvAWsR+W74pAv//An78N QKeNl6TDrWOFlAkKNUrKx7kbEiEyKnk1LprXVQp2E3RK857NRlPECRa0YFEySdW+jEc+ /b6YOZVyRCasjFWw3PuM0OPGayaIteD3AB8+okNEDMMLRb4cH+iKdi9rNMG71zyUEBb9 lhqc0JW2Ucb+oWXhEgKOx2T032m8DPlPIt4anzlw25b5NCAMGsohJdT9V4fnkATvB7EW mJoG3sUTmRna68W39t12IhAomQe/Ky1vP6ZLQiD8rjiq86A6ZNlBmaMLa8PpIbL8xrHC ERUA== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAubuRMFZ0GZrNWoI1Cj61G9z2xjzdZ+Ztb46klbP3qUmyuV1vwJP xHwOLH7PYAw23EQ+Jt4N+jg2drJ9XEzNHRbl2Ro= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IZQX7u1UYSPkGWV/Cc/jzJx6u4QOTVyBi8w7IP+/3Hr0j36Rs9u49vP9/js/PMBYsW5bJKyDizcSYXTDtQmneM= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:425b:: with SMTP id p88mr961396lja.78.1550807119290; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 19:45:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <17d7e50b-5012-74ec-d1a5-9c8b80d60f4e@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: From: Mary Barnes Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 21:45:08 -0600 Message-ID: To: Ben Campbell Cc: Adam Roach , draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken.all@tools.ietf.org, "stir@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000075e7b50582736b41" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [stir] Getting PASSPORT Published X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 03:45:23 -0000 --00000000000075e7b50582736b41 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ben, Thanks for your question. I am more suggesting the former than the latter. Although, I also don't think the proposed change adds any real value or will have any impact on what service providers choose to do. Regards, Mary On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 5:52 PM Ben Campbell wrote: > > > Hi Mary, > > Is your argument that the original text is good enough for an > informational RFC, so there=E2=80=99s no need to improve it? Or that the = proposed > new text does not improve it? > > Thanks! > > Ben. > > > On Feb 21, 2019, at 5:12 PM, Mary Barnes > wrote: > > > > I personally don't see it adds any value to make the proposed change > given > > that you're proposing to change the status of the draft to Informationa= l > > (which I'm fine with). We've had this discussion many, many times with > one > > of those threads triggering this draft: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-peterson-informational-normativity-01 > > We could start it again, if you don't agree with what that draft says - > > that will give us a good topic for open mic discussions at the plenary > next > > month ;) > > > > I also thought IESG had published a statement on this, but I can only > find > > the one with regards to the references and not the terms: > > > https://www.ietf.org/blog/iesg-statement-normative-and-informative-refere= nces/ > > --00000000000075e7b50582736b41 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Ben,

Thanks for your ques= tion.=C2=A0 I am more suggesting the former than the latter.=C2=A0 Although= , I also don't think the proposed change adds any real value or will ha= ve any impact on what service providers choose to do.=C2=A0=C2=A0

Regards,
Mary=C2=A0=C2=A0

On Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at = 5:52 PM Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com= > wrote:
= <as individual>

Hi Mary,

Is your argument that the original text is good enough for an informational= RFC, so there=E2=80=99s no need to improve it? Or that the proposed new te= xt does not improve it?

Thanks!

Ben.

> On Feb 21, 2019, at 5:12 PM, Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com> w= rote:
>
> I personally don't see it adds any value to make the proposed chan= ge given
> that you're proposing to change the status of the draft to Informa= tional
> (which I'm fine with).=C2=A0 We've had this discussion many, m= any times with one
> of those threads triggering this draft:
> https://tools.ietf.org/h= tml/draft-peterson-informational-normativity-01
> We could start it again, if you don't agree with what that draft s= ays -
> that will give us a good topic for open mic discussions at the plenary= next
> month ;)
>
> I also thought IESG had published a statement on this, but I can only = find
> the one with regards to the references and not the terms:
> https://www.ietf.= org/blog/iesg-statement-normative-and-informative-references/

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dG9yIGNhbiBhc3NvY2lhdGUgdGhvc2UgJ29yaWdpZCcNCiAgICA+ICAgIHZhbHVlcyB0byB0aGUg Y29ycmVjdCBlbGVtZW50IHdoZW4gZG9pbmcgbG9va3VwcyBpbiB0aGVpciBiYWNrZW5kIA0KICAg ID4gc3lzdGVtcy4NCiAgICANCiAgICANCiAgICBEb2VzIHRoaXMgc291bmQgbGlrZSBhIHJlYXNv bmFibGUgcGF0aCBmb3J3YXJkPw0KICAgIA0KICAgIC9hDQogICAgDQogICAgX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCiAgICBzdGlyIG1haWxpbmcgbGlz dA0KICAgIHN0aXJAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCiAgICBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xp c3RpbmZvL3N0aXINCiAgICANCg0K From nobody Fri Feb 22 11:33:01 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A376130EBA for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 11:32:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.68 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.68 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l2bdfgij3SGo for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 11:32:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CAE8A130F70 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 11:32:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from MacBook-Pro.roach.at (99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id x1MJWqJH073847 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 22 Feb 2019 13:32:54 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from adam@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1550863975; bh=dSlw/xnHSCR461Q0p1g3Ps0RZZ8MdoL52qlvZmqUkKc=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=HaTM8F+Zx563EkBm9oLZCeMMhQO665+gQsktdiUjizXxvdjdjANv7MLNeldz8pGuv Qe+gooZD23OwB33DV67yk8O/b+p4R2tg7KsEGcXYTi7HPky6vCTM76bxAtYaeoXNp8 MYQ52AxV3gOm3DqEdgJFRxEVP+KLLPuHCwFjtrBU= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host 99-152-146-228.lightspeed.dllstx.sbcglobal.net [99.152.146.228] claimed to be MacBook-Pro.roach.at To: "Peterson, Jon" , "draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken.all@tools.ietf.org" Cc: "stir@ietf.org" , Eric Rescorla References: <17d7e50b-5012-74ec-d1a5-9c8b80d60f4e@nostrum.com> <3F73548D-63E9-4935-A27C-0BD7A9E89CA8@team.neustar> From: Adam Roach Message-ID: <0f0c0664-e72f-b85b-1277-45e901e7c5c6@nostrum.com> Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 13:32:47 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3F73548D-63E9-4935-A27C-0BD7A9E89CA8@team.neustar> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [stir] Getting PASSPORT Published X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 19:33:00 -0000 Copying EKR, as I'm not sure he reads the STIR list regularly. /a On 2/22/19 1:22 PM, Peterson, Jon wrote: > I think the proposed privacy text is fine. > > In terms of whether this should be Info or PS, I think we're expecting that there will be a substantial amount of SHAKEN deployment out there before the end of this year. We wanted this documented here in the IETF because we wanted to make sure those PASSporT elements would be commonly understood by elements that receive them. > > Should privacy concerns prevent this from being something that gets the blessing of IETF consensus? On balance, I don't think they should. Practically speaking, these orig IDs are not the main PII worry here - the originating number, the thing STIR exists to attest, is far more revealing than an orig ID, which is in practice used something a bit more like a trunk group identifier. Carriers have the proper incentives to make sure that those orig IDs are not externally linkable. But if the worry here is that targeted or mass collection of orig ID can tell us something more interesting about the people placing communications than the calling party number, it's hard for me to see how that would be true. And even if it were, the text (especially the new version) is already telling people to keep this UUIDs opaque. > > Jon Peterson > Neustar, Inc. > > On 2/21/19, 2:24 PM, "stir on behalf of Adam Roach" wrote: > > [as area director] > > tl;dr: I'd like to propose publishing SHAKEN as Informational instead of > Standards Track, and tweaking the Privacy Considerations section. > Details below. > > > The draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken document still has a DISCUSS > remaining on it from IESG evaluation: > > > I would like to discuss the privacy properties of origids. As I read > > this text, it does not actually require them to be unlinkable or that > > it not be possible to determine whether two ids represent the same > > person behind the origid generator, and I believe it should do so. > > Practically implementing that may require an ID that is longer than a > > UUID. > > > While it's true that this behavior is defined in the ATIS document, > publication of an IETF Proposed Standard carries with it the explicit > indication that the IETF as a whole (including the IESG during their > evaluation) thinks the approach being described is a Good Idea. In this > particular case, the fact that the underlying mechanism does not > inherently provide unlinkability for the underlying identifiers has been > identified as problematic. > > At the same time, I'll note that the primary reason for this document to > exist is to populate two IANA registries. Both of these registries are > "Specification Required," which doesn't require the publication of a > Standards Track document. > > An acceptable path to address this situation would be to instead publish > draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken as Informational, and to tighten up the > privacy considerations slightly. I believe this could be achieved with a > small change to the final sentence of section 10; we would replace: > > > If the operator of an element is concerned about the > > correlation of 'origid' values, the element could be configured to > > use a unique 'origid' value per call in such a way that the operator > > can associate those 'origid' values to the correct element when doing > > lookups in their backend systems. > > With: > > > Absent a compelling reason not to do so, operators should configure > > their > > network elements to use a unique and externally unlinkable 'origid' > > value > > per call in such a way that the operator can associate those 'origid' > > values to the correct element when doing lookups in their backend > > systems. > > > Does this sound like a reasonable path forward? > > /a > > _______________________________________________ > stir mailing list > stir@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir > > > _______________________________________________ > stir mailing list > stir@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir From nobody Sat Feb 23 08:19:55 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16C9012426A for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2019 08:19:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=chriswendt-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o9ecS4dd2vBu for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2019 08:19:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x843.google.com (mail-qt1-x843.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::843]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CADCC12958B for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2019 08:19:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x843.google.com with SMTP id s1so6019316qte.5 for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2019 08:19:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=chriswendt-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=E44sGHbZ+WDOfEFAij88qM1oNjPK1gzv9HectMocNPs=; b=0dqZs2A2k3aECCfiUX5/9UPOn8l7OjYCyW8odS+fAxViPyrFDqlcb48XHc4SXzJ9ss TOyIcHsjgioIOZSJTsz4ZaBxPqbBzhDesE3HqCw1ucWFqvrcXhu2D3bEHLw7Dt+IhC6B dd83hp67j5Zrh4o5OFRz1VuGAHTvABkj1/u444vmuDAW+RMVZjFw/0t9QhMKv4S5FNGk dl0ZcLtOMOJrxzDC8XsGKSNk/uv6j/4A6+K2TKf1FZ2328dO8bjMv2vaIsg1Ur7LFeja EQiFDvGPAe7ePNTLlS1fLoXKWcMEv9MF5bEnpwhOkAhKoi+GbKlxOOjFmdH/5NGtvjDj +Olw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=E44sGHbZ+WDOfEFAij88qM1oNjPK1gzv9HectMocNPs=; b=oXsY0jy3EhjHiXxM0eqWSq1/vTu+1KWpfsz/fNL12ngFVwA2v+N3RCqkTJZBIgNhP7 CSyJE8b2wRrQBp7GYmXmRU4ik7Pm9WPpuS1ozHJwYlFq/ogs6hXWdfibvsk9Y5BwMExo VFq3rol9q3MyYhBNUlCnSjkk8D8kIhrCl7qQAW9ZaZukJHR5NiJ8BzU9Gqjn4ZMcWk8C RmHBgSCzIkcCuGNGf/yQxrH8gAeitC7uCB0jP1SkXQA98kXv1n1KzIRXI1WOOroKOBE3 lhAuod1CmuBqJ67iGtoOUtmT3A0HL+a65PnoO4Zq3Gze1nPhh1FOuvr9bFLtIfzsedvu nalA== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAubVIb4QDB04b40h6LiEj0tVkudfUWoTbTHp6DheOex2cFfqrhEO NSZDrNgAhlLAVjcEsj5crYYb3Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IZKTv780DBUbvnDCu0QeOBD4LZ5zuShn68FcJ8BF1exhf23wZEhnSN2tKDtcEB6Z9EYD3TDhQ== X-Received: by 2002:aed:21e2:: with SMTP id m31mr7527547qtc.44.1550938789802; Sat, 23 Feb 2019 08:19:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.201.245] (static-71-185-213-146.phlapa.fios.verizon.net. [71.185.213.146]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j6sm2511577qte.29.2019.02.23.08.19.48 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 23 Feb 2019 08:19:49 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) From: Chris Wendt In-Reply-To: <0f0c0664-e72f-b85b-1277-45e901e7c5c6@nostrum.com> Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2019 11:19:47 -0500 Cc: "Peterson, Jon" , "draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken.all@tools.ietf.org" , "stir@ietf.org" , Eric Rescorla Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <17d7e50b-5012-74ec-d1a5-9c8b80d60f4e@nostrum.com> <3F73548D-63E9-4935-A27C-0BD7A9E89CA8@team.neustar> <0f0c0664-e72f-b85b-1277-45e901e7c5c6@nostrum.com> To: Adam Roach X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [stir] Getting PASSPORT Published X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2019 16:19:54 -0000 Hi Jon, Thanks, this aligns very similarly with the response i provided in early = January on what i now am realizing was only the stir authors and working = group chair lists.=20 origID will only likely provide information about a particular trunk or = network element a customer might be associated with, but we are already = exposing orig and dest, as well as OCN association in the certificate, = so origID would be the last thing on that list i would want to correlate = calls with to expose privacy information. -Chris > On Feb 22, 2019, at 2:32 PM, Adam Roach wrote: >=20 > Copying EKR, as I'm not sure he reads the STIR list regularly. >=20 > /a >=20 > On 2/22/19 1:22 PM, Peterson, Jon wrote: >> I think the proposed privacy text is fine. >>=20 >> In terms of whether this should be Info or PS, I think we're = expecting that there will be a substantial amount of SHAKEN deployment = out there before the end of this year. We wanted this documented here in = the IETF because we wanted to make sure those PASSporT elements would be = commonly understood by elements that receive them. >>=20 >> Should privacy concerns prevent this from being something that gets = the blessing of IETF consensus? On balance, I don't think they should. = Practically speaking, these orig IDs are not the main PII worry here - = the originating number, the thing STIR exists to attest, is far more = revealing than an orig ID, which is in practice used something a bit = more like a trunk group identifier. Carriers have the proper incentives = to make sure that those orig IDs are not externally linkable. But if the = worry here is that targeted or mass collection of orig ID can tell us = something more interesting about the people placing communications than = the calling party number, it's hard for me to see how that would be = true. And even if it were, the text (especially the new version) is = already telling people to keep this UUIDs opaque. >>=20 >> Jon Peterson >> Neustar, Inc. >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BFOn 2/21/19, 2:24 PM, "stir on behalf of Adam Roach" = wrote: >>=20 >> [as area director] >> tl;dr: I'd like to propose publishing SHAKEN as = Informational instead of >> Standards Track, and tweaking the Privacy Considerations section. >> Details below. >> The draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken document still has = a DISCUSS >> remaining on it from IESG evaluation: >> > I would like to discuss the privacy properties of origids. = As I read >> > this text, it does not actually require them to be unlinkable = or that >> > it not be possible to determine whether two ids represent the = same >> > person behind the origid generator, and I believe it should do = so. >> > Practically implementing that may require an ID that is longer = than a >> > UUID. >> While it's true that this behavior is defined in the = ATIS document, >> publication of an IETF Proposed Standard carries with it the = explicit >> indication that the IETF as a whole (including the IESG during = their >> evaluation) thinks the approach being described is a Good Idea. = In this >> particular case, the fact that the underlying mechanism does not >> inherently provide unlinkability for the underlying identifiers = has been >> identified as problematic. >> At the same time, I'll note that the primary reason for this = document to >> exist is to populate two IANA registries. Both of these = registries are >> "Specification Required," which doesn't require the publication = of a >> Standards Track document. >> An acceptable path to address this situation would be to = instead publish >> draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken as Informational, and to tighten = up the >> privacy considerations slightly. I believe this could be achieved = with a >> small change to the final sentence of section 10; we would = replace: >> > If the operator of an element is concerned about the >> > correlation of 'origid' values, the element could be = configured to >> > use a unique 'origid' value per call in such a way that the = operator >> > can associate those 'origid' values to the correct element = when doing >> > lookups in their backend systems. >> With: >> > Absent a compelling reason not to do so, operators = should configure >> > their >> > network elements to use a unique and externally unlinkable = 'origid' >> > value >> > per call in such a way that the operator can associate those = 'origid' >> > values to the correct element when doing lookups in their = backend >> > systems. >> Does this sound like a reasonable path forward? >> /a >> _______________________________________________ >> stir mailing list >> stir@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir >> =20 >> _______________________________________________ >> stir mailing list >> stir@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/stir >=20 >=20 From nobody Sun Feb 24 09:23:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: stir@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0E27128766 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 09:23:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xDrlstqP2nfV for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 09:23:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A9BD12426E for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 09:23:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FEAE300AA3 for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 12:05:29 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id F0ufzrU7fTZq for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 12:05:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from a860b60074bd.fios-router.home (pool-108-45-137-105.washdc.fios.verizon.net [108.45.137.105]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 594CF30024F for ; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 12:05:28 -0500 (EST) From: Russ Housley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2019 12:23:44 -0500 References: To: IETF STIR Mail List In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <013F30DB-F9B4-4732-B267-F3003180E48F@vigilsec.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) Archived-At: Subject: [stir] DRAFT STIR Agenda for IETF 104 X-BeenThere: stir@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Secure Telephone Identity Revisited List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2019 17:23:49 -0000 Please review and comment. Russ = = = = = = = = = = STIR WG Agenda for IETF 104 FRIDAY, 29 March 2019 at 0900 0) Minute Taker, Jabber Scribe, Bluesheets 1) Agenda Bash 2) Documents with the IESG -- draft-ietf-stir-passport-shaken (Chris and Mary) 3) Active Working Group Documents -- draft-ietf-stir-passport-divert (Jon) -- draft-ietf-stir-passport-rcd (Jon) 4) Inactive WG Documents -- draft-ietf-stir-oob (EKR and Jon) 5) Any Other Business (if time allows) 6) Wrap Up